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Wings Over Scotland

Eight Years A Failure

Posted on November 20, 2022 by

Well, it looks like Wings is coming back, then. Blimey. So let’s see where we’re going to be picking things up from. Exactly eight years ago today, Nicola Sturgeon took over as First Minister from Alex Salmond.

How has it gone?

Salmond became First Minister with support for the SNP at 32% (just 1 point ahead of Scottish Labour) and support for independence at 25% and falling.

After seven years he bequeathed Sturgeon a party running at 50% in the polls – 27 points ahead of its nearest challenger – with a membership almost 10 times bigger than when he took over, and support for independence consistently in the lead.

It’s a matter of record that the governance of the UK has been a toxic binfire of malign incompetence for almost the entire subsequent period. Five different Prime Ministers, a shambolic Brexit, a catastrophically-mismanaged virus pandemic, runaway inflation, economic collapse, industrial unrest and an imminent recession.

And what has Sturgeon made of this gift-wrapped golden legacy?

Most of the SNP’s voters have doggedly kept the faith, with support for the party only a few points down. But none of the last six independence polls, and just three of the last 30, have shown Yes in the lead.

Let’s put that in a punchier graph.

By any measure it’s a record of failure. But taking the full circumstances of the relative times into account Sturgeon’s leadership has been little short of a disaster, a catalogue of missed open goals, and unless the Supreme Court shocks everyone on Wednesday there’s precious little to look forward to for at least two more years.

It’ll be interesting to see what the reaction is in three days’ time. The independence industry is frantically trying to whip what’s left of the moribund indy movement into life, with thrilling opportunities to listen to speeches from members of the SNP’s censorious and abusive Twitler Youth, probably about how the Court’s use of pronouns failed to centre transgender people.

But the SNP’s approach to the decision appears to have been very carefully and deliberately designed to fail. In particular, if the court rules that it cannot make a decision because the referendum bill is only a draft, then months will have been wasted by the SNP’s tactics and there will be no excuse, because that was the exact argument it used when opposing Martin Keatings’ attempt to secure a ruling on the same point almost two years ago.

But that would be an outcome wholly in keeping with the eight years that have been wasted by Nicola Sturgeon up until this point, so it’d be difficult to raise much of an eyebrow in shock.

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    123 to “Eight Years A Failure”

    1. Stoops says:

      So glad you’re back.

    2. Astonished says:

      Sturgeon – The great charlatan. As incompetent a plotter as she is a leader.

      Hopefully, Wednesday will lead to her downfall.

      P.S. I see shirley anne shambles is involved in yet another disaster.

    3. fillofficer says:

      they have been made aware of the SC ruling already
      it’ll be interesting to analyse their behaviour in the days till wednesday
      utter time wasting fiasco
      but she/her has plenty of time, eh

    4. Republicofscotland says:

      Yes, I think that’s what will happen the UKSC will not make a ruling, and we will be stuck in limbo, for if they said no to competency of Holyrood holding an indyref it might cause real unrest, and if they said yes to holding an indyref, it might actually leave the door open to yes winning, or at the very least confirming that Holyrood could hold further indyrefs without a ruling from the UKSC.

      As for Sturgeon’s abysmal failure in office since she became FM it’s there for all to see.

    5. 100%Yes says:

      I’ll be more than happy to protest if Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t resign as FM and leader of the NUSNP, failure and failure, its funny the SNP are great at calling for every other party to resign. When you look at the track record of the SNP leader its abysmal and doesn’t make for good reading.

    6. 100%Yes says:

      The only people who want Nicola Sturgeon to remain as FM are those who are making a living out of Independence.

      Even if NS resigned because of the Supreme court ruling, the last thing any of us would what is another leader who’s a lawyer or barrister of the SNP.

    7. Emily N. says:

      Nice to see you back, as I always say, the great never die.

    8. Scotsrenewables says:

      “the governance of the UK has been a toxic binfire of malign incompetence”

      And he’s back, wordsmith par excellence firing on all cylinders…

      Go on Stu, scare them to death…

    9. P says:

      Yes, she’s working well for “her people”

    10. Big Jock says:

      In destroying Samond’s legacy and character. Sturgeon also split and destroyed the independence movement.

      The question is. Can we rebuild it?

      The worst outcome for Sturgeon on Wednesday would be a yes. Because she wants a no answer. She has no intention of delivering a referendum, and she would spontaneously combust.

    11. Merganser says:

      The quicker than expected judgement does suggest that the court has dismissed the case at the first hurdle, but I would not be surprised if they distinguished this case from the Keatings case, accepted that they should hear it, and gave a judgement saying they agreed with the Lord Advocate’s view that a referendum was a reserved matter. They won’t want it to keep returning, so they can put an end to it all now.

      Dorothy will pay the price for being right in not having sufficient confidence to authorise it, and will be expected to resign or be sacked.

    12. Patsy Millar says:

      Great to have you back even if it makes depressing reading. If by some miracle independence gets back on track then we’ll need you back in the driving seat for another ‘Wee Blue Book’.

    13. Alf Baird says:

      Yes Rev, postcolonial theory also tells us this is precisely what happens, that inside the dominant National Party “the will to break colonialism is linked with another quite different will: that of coming to a friendly agreement with it” (Frantz Fanon).

    14. James Che says:

      REV STU.

      You want a story of excellent journalism. Worried for your safety?
      After five of my family members dying suddenly in one year while under medical care,

      You should investigate Protocol NG91….being implemented for money by Great Britain doctors.

      The story begins with co-founder of the British Nursing Allience

      A story bigger than the snp and will effect people in you’re family too if true.

    15. Scotsrenewables says:

      Can we keep Covid conspiracy nonsense off this site, please?

    16. Muscleguy says:

      @Patsy Millar
      A new version of the Wee Blue Book has indeed been produced. Through the Alba political party and labelled the Wee Alba Book.

      It doesn’t seem to have set the heather on fire, especially since you are unaware of the fact.

      Making it party political was I think a big mistake.

    17. Stoker says:

      Rev wrote: “Well, it looks like Wings is coming back, then.”

      The truth is a drug one gets addicted to. Many happy returns. LOL!

    18. stuart mctavish says:

      Logical extension of SC being unable to make a ruling because it is too early is that a bill should be passed to rescind treaty and render it too late.

      Excellent 🙂

    19. Chris Downie says:

      Say what we like about Boris Johnson and his cohorts, reprehensible as they are, but the cold, hard truth is that if the Sturrell regime was as committed to delivering independence as they were to “getting Brexit done”, then we’d be independent by now. Or at the very, very least, we’d have a second referendum confirmed.

    20. James Che says:

      Uk binfire politics.

      I wonder what investments matt hancock in health care?

    21. James Che says:


      I take it you are not inferring covid to my comments,

      None of my five family members that died this year was of Covid.

    22. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi James Che.

      Here’s what Google returned –

      About 0 results (0.19 seconds)

      “Your search – “Protocol NG91″ – did not match any documents.


      Make sure that all words are spelled correctly.
      Try different keywords.
      Try more general keywords.”

      And back to Sturgeon’s failures…

    23. James Che says:

      How uk policies and protocols will dealing with the ageing demographics of Britain .

      Protocol NG91.

    24. James Che says:

      Brian doonthetoon,

      Try telegram.

    25. Jan Cowan says:

      The supposed First Minister, MUST be the LAST WM directed FM. Freedom is essential.

    26. Liz says:

      No matter what the outcome, all these pop up indy movements are out for themselves.
      You depressingly called it years ago – independence industry.

      Sturgeon will never resign even if its a no
      She’s here to do maximum damage to Scotland before she’s off to what she believes is a globalist job.
      Personally, I believe after she’s delivered, she’ll be dropped asap.

    27. Effijy says:

      I’d like to a poll asking Scots if they enjoy any benefit from Brexit?

      Do they accept that although almost two thirds of Scot voted Remain, England has the right to overrule any decision made in Scotland even if Remain was at 100% in Scotland.

      As a Scot who voted No at the last independence referendum because the Westminster Parties vowed it was the only way Scotland could remain in the EU
      Would you like Scotland to return to the EU markets and can you name any political party who might deliver that return.

    28. Dave M says:

      YAAAAAS! Glad to have you back, Stu. This has made my week ? No doubt there’ll be a frothing article on ScotGoesPop in due course.

      Your piece nicely sums up the problems we’re having. Sturgeon is a failure and the SNP is not fit for purpose (assuming its purpose is still that of securing independence). The Scottish Government is an utter disaster area, devoid of any sense of competence built up under Salmond. It could be doing good work to start a devolved Scotland giving us a flavour of what independence could look like. Instead it’s been captured by a bunch of authoritarians in frocks or blue hair, pushing an anti-science, anti-safeguarding agenda without any meaningful discussion. If that’s Sturgeon’s vision for independence, I don’t want it. I would vote no in a referendum tomorrow, on the grounds of the dangerous agendas of gender identity ideology and ‘queer theory’ promulgated by the SNP, Scottish Government and the rest of the public sector.

      We need to get real and we need to get angry, not just at Westminster, but at Bute House, Holyrood and the SNP.

    29. twathater says:

      @ Scots renewable 1.03pm , I see you’re still a sturgeon apologist, doing what the scum leader and her morons do ,focusing on WM as an excuse whilst avoiding sturgeon and her sex denying perverts destruction of Scotland

      When are you going to realise and admit that this creature has CONNED you and many more people in Scotland , she has brought nothing but PAIN and MISERY to our people and country , I am like Breeks I want her jailed for her destruction and I want ALL her and her creepy wee husbands assets stripped from them , and when she is eventually released I want her thrown out of Scotland for the trai tor she is

    30. Robert Hughes says:

      Scotsrenewables says:
      20 November, 2022 at 2:10 pm

      ” Can we keep Covid conspiracy nonsense off this site, please? ”

      Can we keep halfwits STILL calling fckn FACTS * conspiracy theories * off this site , please ? What part of ” Safe and Effective ” do you consider to have been accurate ?

      Personally , I’m happy to keep discussion here focused on Independence ( and the lack of any meaningful progress towards it ) but the uncritical acceptance of * Official * narratives is of a piece with the similar lazy ,uncritical acceptance by too many people of the pish that emanates from Bute House/Holyrood

    31. Mark C says:

      £5,200 per month isn’t a bad sum of money. Good to see you back!

    32. Republicofscotland says:

      This is an interesting scenario that the UKSC might not rule on indyref bill, until it is passed through Holyrood, but the SNP government and the Lord Advocate Bain might not pursue that avenue.

      So, in effect the UKSC won’t rule on it, till it passed through Holyrood but the S&G and the LA won’t attempt to pass the indyref bill through until the UKSC rules on it.

    33. Geoff Anderson says:

      That’s my first months payment repaid already!

    34. Alt Clut says:

      It’s pretty clear that some variant of the Sturgeon inadequacy/betrayal narrative is true. It’s right and proper that this be stated as a baseline for the renewed ‘Wings’. I hope that we’ll also see articles on the rebuilding of our movement from the stunted position that these eight years have put it in.
      In the far from pro indy town that I live in our wee YES group plugs away with it’s street stalls and door to door leaflet distributions. The most striking change in the last few years has been the complete disappearence of Mr. & Mrs. ‘angry yoon’ who used to take up quite a bit of our time. Also more people proactively approach us rather than us having to approach them.
      The crumbling UK and the wretched, malignant tory party are still doing our work for us – or, at the least, putting more people within reach of us.
      Please let’s use this opportunity. We need to build our active movement as well as holding Westminster and Bute House to account.
      Our situation is not what we hoped it would be by now but there are still positives to seize.

    35. Lynn Fraser says:

      Excellent. Welcome back. Much needed un these dire times.

    36. James Che says:

      Rev stu had a fight on his hands for a long time after he started informing us what the the snp were and were not up to on our behalf.
      A lot of people did not want to believe the information he offered, some still ignore it.
      But he researched it with due diligence and left it here for us to digest,

      The information on investments by certain politicians in Britain and new policies on the ageing demographics of Britain and solutions being provided to people in or over the age range of 50s and 60 year olds does need more research. That is why I mentioned it here.

      Lets talk Scottish independence.
      How many of us think we will not see Scottish independence in our life time? Quite a lot of us.
      Well if your life time is cut short, that is a high probability.

      But when the policies and investments of companies of say Mr hancock are researched it does not matter if you are a long standing supporter of Scottish independence or are new supporter from south of the border, if your age group is around fifty and upwards.

      I am simply suggesting that many here in Scotland should be more aware of the use of the new influx of medicines being bought for the elderly and not be led up the garden path as we were with the Snp.

      It depends on how you think. And what age you are at present.

      Voluntary euthanasia of the elderly, eugenics, or enforced non voluntary euthanasia while under medical care in Scotland and England,

      An open mind and thorough research of politics saves a lot of time that otherwise is wasted, it may also save a lot of our lives.

      There are questions to be asked on the WEF policies on the ageing demographic population solution that MR hancock is investing finances in.

    37. Doug says:

      The SNP government better have a positive, radical answer ready and waiting for Wednesday’s decision – whatever the decision is. Ah hae ma doots. As usual they will rely on the brain-dead acquiescence of its members.

    38. Dave S says:

      Welcome back and thank fuck

    39. Dorothy Devine says:

      Wonderful to have you back.

      I’d still like to know where the ‘ring fenced’ money for Indy 2 is hidden – and in whose bank balance is it residing, collecting interest.

    40. John Main says:

      @Effigy 2:53

      iScotland doesn’t need to be in the EU in order to gain access to EU markets.

      Just as well, as iScotland is unlikely to meet any of the criteria for joining for years, maybes decades.

      IMHO, any Scottish politician who campaigns to sunder this 300+ YO rancid union, and immediately aims to transfer Scotland’s hard-won and generations-dreamt-off freedom to rule by Brussels truly is a tractor.

    41. Effijy says:


      Scotland voted with a percentage I’ve never seen before to stay in the EU.
      Are you suggesting Scotland is in a less strong position than Ireland, Greece, Estonia, Latvia
      or Lithuania who are all EU members.

      Northern Ireland is economically doing far better than any other part of the U.K. directly due
      to trading with the EU. The reason why Westminster must get them out of there or people might think Brexit was only for money laundering and tax avoidance purposes.

    42. Robert Louis says:

      Yip, that article pretty much sums things up. And when the English pretendy ‘supreme court’ answers on Wednesday, it will be either ‘no you cannae’, or ‘we can’t judge as the bill hasn’t been submitted yet’ (which the SNP absolutely could have already done).

      It is now beyond doubt. This is deliberate by the SNP leadership, to make it look like they are always trying to get indy, but just need a wee bit longer. Their role now is to act as the focus for Scots who want independence, but never to actually quite make it happen. Perpetual indy carrot dangling. Only donkeys fall for that.

      They have taken indy supporters for fools, and some still fall for it all. I initially fell for it. But not any longer. It is abundantly clear Sturgeon has as much genuine desire for Scottish independence as Boris the English clown, or any of the others from his murderous criminal tory cabal running the country from England.

      I really look forward to seeing Sturgeons lies on Wednesday being picked apart by this site. Hopefully folk will then realise what a fake she really is. Will she stand up for Scotland??? Nah.

      Scotland really, really needs independence. Not in a few years, but now. It is really, really urgent, and has been for at least eight years. The go slow approach of the SNP betrays their lack of conviction for independence. It’s all talk, no action. The SNP, the do nothing party.

    43. Hatuey says:

      Weird that John Main only purports/pretends to be Pro-Indy when he’s discussing the EU. And his argument of choice just happens to be the same argument unionists rely on; that it’s contradictory to argue for Indy on one hand, whilst arguing to join the EU on the other.

      The lie at the heart of that argument, and it is a lie (not some honest simpleton’s mistake), asks us to believe that joining the EU would require the same sort of sacrifice of sovereignty that is required of us now within the UK.

      Would the EU control exactly how much Scotland has to spend on things like health and welfare? Would the EU impose strict limits on taxation? Would the EU dictate our foreign policy? Would it control our defence spending and insist on parking nuclear weapons next to our biggest city? We could fill a book…

      Being in the EU is nothing like being in the UK. Don’t insult us.

    44. Robert Louis says:

      Doug at 436pm,

      Exactly. Sturgeon knows the possible judgements, and so should be ready to have all guns firing back, and demanding, then stating that Scotland WILL have independence regardless.

      I fully expect, as you do, that no such thing will happen. She will state that this is difficult and so on, and so on, but nothing definitive. She WILL NOT stand up for Scotland as an equal partner in the union to end that union, nor clearly state that England has no right of veto over Scottish independence, none. It will all just be left to drift for a few more years. More vacuous promises, more empty rhetoric, more endless waiting for godot (or something).

      The SNP, the do nothing party.

    45. Tinto Chiel says:

      Dorothy Devine @4.53: “I’d still like to know where the ‘ring fenced’ money for Indy 2 is hidden.”

      Maybe it’s “woven through” Mr Murrell’s trousers 🙂 .

      Just a thought…….

    46. vlad says:

      See Craig Murray’s blog!!! Disaster for free speech in the UK!

    47. Wullie B says:

      Welcome back Rev, I hope the batteries are well charged because we will need you fighting a two-pronged attack, holding both the Scotgov and their lap poodles AND the Yoon bring down Scotland, Project FEar 2 shite that they are again peddling trying to sow the seeds of doubt in folk who need help seeing the truth

    48. Patricia Keogh says:

      Brilliant to have you back. Thank you

    49. Wullie B says:

      Effijy says:
      20 November, 2022 at 5:22 pm


      Scotland voted with a percentage I’ve never seen before to stay in the EU.
      Are you suggesting Scotland is in a less strong position than Ireland, Greece, Estonia, Latvia
      or Lithuania who are all EU members.

      Northern Ireland is economically doing far better than any other part of the U.K. directly due
      to trading with the EU. The reason why Westminster must get them out of there or people might think Brexit was only for money laundering and tax avoidance purposes.

      Not everyone who voted remain did so to remain in the EU, some of us only did it to get that material change that was being mentioned by the carrot vendors in order to get an indyref 2 years back, would I vote for membership in an EU referendum in an iScotland, NOT A CHANCE but I would vote to join the EFTA, a customs union and I am pro Schengen,

    50. Gizzit says:

      I’m looking forward to the first post-Independence election.

      All the party manifestos will be specific to Scotland, and the focus will be on building a successful Independent country.

      My prediction? The current incarnation of the SNP will get their jotters faster than you can say “charlatans”.

      Say what you like about the Scottish electorate, but we aren’t daft.

    51. McLaurin says:

      That graph with the AS v NS green and purple lines (nice colours btw) illustrates perfectly the utter tragedy of the last 8 years.

      Ta for coming back.

    52. The Isolator says:

      It was looking bleak for a wee while but wow fantastic to have the Rev back in the game.

    53. John Main says:

      @Hats 5:49

      You want to argue over the quantity of sovereignty iScotland will have to sacrifice to get into your beloved EU.

      I don’t. The answer to me is zero.

      If you don’t believe iScotland has what it takes to make its own way in the world as a free, sovereign, independent nation, governed by Scots, in Scotland, for the benefit of the Scots and no other feckers, at least have the guts to come out and say it.

      There are 195 countries in the world, and 28 in the EU. 167 countries are getting on just fine by themselves, managing their own affairs. Scotland can be #168.

    54. Big G says:


      I wish I shared your confidence in the Scottish electorate. They still seem to believe that the SNP is a credible vehicle to independence when Rev’s analysis and commom sense shows otherwise.

      They’re also willing to overlook the fact that the SNP are drunk to the point of delusion on whacky gender ideology.

      For me personally, I don’t think I could vote for independence without a complete dismantling of the SNP and gender ideology first. The risk that fellow Scots vote these muppets into power to write the constitutional foundations of a newly independent Scotland is too high.

      I want independence, but not at the cost of living in perpetual fear of giving offence in an identitarian state crafted by ideologues.

    55. Hatuey says:

      Nobody said anything about Scotland not having what it takes. That’s a new ruse, no less stupid than the one it’s intended to distract from.

      The case for being in the EU is based on what is best for the people here.

      Don’t you have one single argument that you would be willing to air in public for staying out of the EU?

      You’re unraveling. I usually ignore you but tonight I decided to engage and you’re unraveling already.


    56. Willie says:

      I see a survey by GB News has revealed that there is now a majority that reject Brexit.

      Oh how falling living standards, shortages, a collapsing NHS is making our southern cousins laugh.

      Well fuck every one of them from those who can’t get concer treatment to the City that has now been usurped as the primary financial centre. How in truth can you have any sympathy for these fuckers who belligerent voted for isolationism.

    57. Catherine says:

      So great to have you back. As for she/her, history will not be kind.

    58. John Main says:

      @Hats 7:31

      Nice try but no cigar.

      One single argument? On top of the one I made at 7:10, you mean? Zero sovereignty traded outside the EU, as opposed to your undefined amount inside?

      Or you could answer why you think those 167 free, independent countries are “missing out” by not being in your beloved EU. Hell, plenty of them already have thriving, mutually-beneficial trading arrangements with the EU. Why is that to be sneered at as not good enough?

      Don’t use any of your Over-achiever words now.

    59. Hatuey says:

      The “argument” you made at 7.10 turned to dust the second I addressed it.

      I’d be surprised if you could name one country that wasn’t part of a trading block. That includes Australia which idiot brexiteers always use as an example.

      I’ll assume you understand that being part of a trading block like RCEP means you give up sovereignty over things like tariffs…

      Anyway, I gave you a chance and you blew it. There’s no joy for me in dismantling such weak arguments.

    60. shug says:

      Stu you might want to have a look at branch activity now.

      I know of several branches that now struggle to get a quorum (and I believe not all check, just to get on with the paperwork)

      My understanding is the branch structure is collapsing as people get fed up, leave, or transfer to Alba.

      It would be interesting to know how much they made from their annual raffle. It is an interesting measure of support.

      Is this collapse through stupidity of leadership or is it an intentional dismantling.

    61. Dickie Tea says:

      Welcome back.

      Of course Sturgeon could just pass a motion in Holyrood to call an election (needs 66% I hear). Be interesting to see if Dross and the Dentist would support it.

      Then again Unicorns might fly.

    62. fran says:

      Good to have you back, poor “slippers” will be spewing 😉

    63. Dave M says:

      Right on cue, Kelly’s latest blog post is about Wings. So predictable.

    64. David Thomson says:

      “…just three of the last 30 (polls), have shown YES in the lead.”

      Presumably, these three polls were conducted by Angus Robertson of Progress Scotland Ltd after he was turfed out of Westminster.

    65. sarah says:

      O/T: Not good news – Craig Murray’s appeal to ECHR has been rejected as inadmissible. See his blog – it doesn’t look as if the case was handled satisfactorily by the judge.

      Costs shortfall of circa £47,000 so if anyone can help he would be grateful.

    66. George Ferguson says:

      Stu has started. As a commenter on the articles I will stay on topic out of respect for the originator of the article and that includes articles written by guest authors. If something urgent comes in (And that happens) it’s a big O/T. Good start Stu like the green and purple use of colours.

    67. Wings supporter says:

      James Kelly’s posted about you again

    68. Peter A Bell says:

      Average for Yes in the 12 polls using 2014 question subsequent to Nicola Sturgeon becoming FM = 45.25%

      Average for the 12 most recent polls using 2014 question = 44.42%


      #DissolveTheUnion #ScottishUDI

    69. Stoker says:

      Willie says on 20 November 2022 at 7:31 pm: “I see a survey by GB News has revealed that there is now a majority that reject Brexit.”

      I seen that earlier too and tried tried to archive it but wouldn’t load it and i don’t know how to use the other archive facilities. Will need to learn because seems to be refusing to load more and more articles.

      Codes may be getting written into the articles to stop us archiving them? I’m not tech-savvy so i don’t know what’s really going on. But here’s the link to the article anyway. Would appreciate it if someone out there could successfully archive it for us. Thanks in anticipation.

    70. David Cunningham says:

      I’ve been waiting in the wings for this!

      Already see a few well kent names.
      Welcome back everyone.

      Like many others my monthly pittance to Wings never stopped.

    71. Scotsrenewables says:

      twathater says:
      20 November, 2022 at 2:58 pm
      @ Scots renewable 1.03pm , I see you’re still a sturgeon apologist,

      WtAF are you on about, Twatty?

      Sober up, read my post again and FPYT

    72. Red Squirrel says:

      Well it’s all gone to hell but at least with Wings analysing it again we can see exactly why we’re stuck here. That’s got to be better, right?

    73. John Main says:

      @Hats 8:41

      “No joy for me in dismantling”

      You sure? I can’t recall you ever dismantling any arguments on here. Could that explain your joyless state?

      Plenty of your arguments shot down in flames over the years, though. From death to the unvaxxed, through the Nazis getting theirs, to the rapidly nearing Xmas 2022 in the South China Seas.

      Still, regarding the current subject, your “diluted sovereignty” is now in your own words reduced to just being those compromises needed for trading relationships. Which is exactly where I came in with my post at 4:55. iScotland can trade with the EU without being a member of the EU.

      Soz it was beyond your ability to comprehend at the time. Let me know when you intend to “ignore” me in future and I will add simplified summaries to my posts to help you out.

    74. John Main says:

      @Effigy 5:22

      As it happens, I know a few Lithuanians. They were in Scotland pre-Brexit, they are still here now.

      Funny that.

      Ditto Poles, Estonians, and Latvians. Still here.

      Not possible if your narrative is true, yet here they are, contentedly living and working away in Scotland.

      Occam’s razor would suggest that the explanation for this is that your narrative is false. Plenty of people, even after Brexit, prefer still to be out of their home country and out of the EU.

    75. AlbaPartyTime says:

      Welcome back. You’ve been missed…and a big thank you to cosy slippers & co for making this happen! Its probably wouldn’t have happened without them! Thanks SNP! At least you’re being pretty good at something.

    76. Colin McKenna says:

      It’s great to have you back, you’ve been missed!

    77. No Idea says:

      I see that Fatima Joji now has, on her Twitter bio, the legend ‘Stu Campbell is toxic.’ How bizarre. An elected official lashing out at somebody like a 13-year-old who had their boyfriend stolen in the lunch queue by another high school girl. Sad. Just sad. Incredible this sort of person gets to feed off the public purse. Embarrassing and disgusting.

    78. Rab Davis says:


      Stop engaging with the “Three Names”.

      (Ellis,,, Main,,, Chas.)

      They are used to fuck up the flow of debate.

      They will swear that Black is White.

      They are Pedant bastards.

      Best ignored!!!

    79. twathater says:

      Scotsrenewables says:
      20 November, 2022 at 1:03 pm

      “the governance of the UK has been a toxic binfire of malign incompetence”
      Quoting Stu’s words and avoiding mention of the bigger BINFIRE sturgeon has caused in Scotland that was always your way

      You know fine well what i’m on about, you were on here for years punting the sturgeon narrative and decrying anyone who pointed out her incompetence and corruption, I think it was when Stuart Campbell posted the BETRAYER post that You got that upset that you went away in a huff and started your own website , then when that failed you joined the other sturgeon apologists on Paypal Pauls site

      NOW you have realised sturgeon is a fake and the last thing she is interested in is independence,you’ve suddenly noticed Paypal Pauls posts are all about BAD TORIES good snp and sycophancy to nikla
      YOU and your fellow duggers are why we are in the position we are in with your unchallenging belief in the poisoned dwarf

    80. Effijy says:

      This link sums up Hancock and the corruption of the Tory Government and Westminster in general.

    81. Andy Ellis says:

      @Rab Davis

      Perhaps you should desist from trying to tone police BTL instead?

      You should definitely stop posting bigoted abuse about hating “the English” because it makes you look like an unreasoning ned and gives this place a bad name. Fringe roasters soiling BTL comments with such rank bigotry doesn’t help the promote this place or the cause in general.

      It’s not John Main, Chas or myself that’s the issue here, it’s the sub-Trumpian folks like yourself and other sundry conspiracy theorising cranks, anti-vaxxers and Vlad fluffers.

    82. John Main says:

      @Rab Davis 1:04

      Hey Rab, I don’t recall swearing black is white.

      What I am doing ATM, is countering the lazy shibboleth, frequently encountered on here, that iScotland has no hope of survival, unless in the EU.

      That’s just a new twist on the too wee, too poor trope.

      It’s also in direct contradiction of the commonly held belief that iScotland will be a prosperous place, living high on the hog off its bounteous energy and other natural resources.

      Prosperous countries inside the EU all have one thing in common – they subsidise the not so prosperous ones. Thems the rules, iScotland won’t be getting special treatment.

      The thought of waiting 300+ years to get a fair divvying up of Scotland’s wealth between us Scots, only to be told that big chunks of it will go to Brussels instead because of [reasons], sticks in my craw.

    83. Robert Hughes says:

      ” Fringe roasters soiling BTL comments with such rank bigotry doesn’t help the promote this place or the cause in general. ”

      But blunderbuss remarks like …….

      ” other sundry conspiracy theorising cranks, anti-vaxxers and Vlad fluffers ” – do ?

      Have you met any/many superstars of your disapproval who combine all 3 of those – somewhat abstract , qualities ?

      I’ve encountered , fortunately not in the flesh , a few vaxx-fluffers , anti-conspiracy theorising cranks ( they’re a hoot , they believe in the wildest coincidences imaginable ) and some who’ll tell you ” Vlad * is a direct descendant of the eponymous Impaler , except the current one eats babies for breakfast and plans to invade , well , the entire world – the morra ; or next week at the latest

    84. Desimond says:

      Its been an utter state of “mheeeeeeeeeeeerrrr” hasnt it?
      Look up last 8 years and it will simply read:

      “And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
      The needle returns to the start of the song
      And we all sing along like before
      And we’ll all be lonely tonight and lonely tomorrow”

      Until there’s an actual contender in the wings of the SNP top table let alone someone actually challenging NS, then I cant see anything changing.

      The folk at Westminster are so comfortable its unbelievable and the way to the top of the SNP tree is as welcoming as the path to Mount Doom. The SNP MSPs are just empty faces and box tickers, personality and presence free shells, could you actually name 5 these days?

      It wont be long before we go full House of Cards and they start comparing NS reign to Thatchers longevity in Office and she aims to top Thatcher and Blairs seat at the top of their trees.

      All rather sad but there’s always a glimmer of hope and that comes with news that Wings comes back to shake the Tree of Comfort.

    85. Andy Ellis says:

      @Robert Hughes

      If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem Robert.

      If you’re unable to discern the difference between me or anyone else pointing out that being an anti English bigot like Rab is not the same as me or others calling out fringe nutters for spouting their disinformation and frequently bile BTL here I can’t really help you. Your sense of perspective seems a little off.

      One wonders what the former MSP who initially asked the anti English bigot Rab which three poster’s Rab was referring to and advising everybody not to interact with had actually read Rab’s previous output and his flagrant bigotry? Perhaps not. Perhaps he didn’t care. Folk should care though.

      As you freely acknowledge you have personal experience of the kind of cranks mentioned. You can hardly deny such folks are (more’s the pity!) well represented here, yet they generally get a fairly easy ride from other BTL posters who really ought to know better.

      If you fly wi’ the craws…..?

    86. Derick fae Yell says:

      Anent the EU.

      Do we need to be in the EU to regain the 4 Freedoms (free movement of goods, capital, services, and people)?
      No, clearly not, as Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein are full members of the single market.

      Do we want to be in the single market?
      Yes, definitely. See Brexitland, economic collapse etc

      Does EU or EFTA offer Scotland the greatest control over the direction of Europe?
      Not much in it, and a little realism required re Scotland’s influence
      EU – The European Parliament is a toothless talking shop. Having a Commissioner and a member on the Council of Ministers would give Scotland 1/28th control. Being a full member provides a veto on major treaty changes, e.g. accession of new members, but most matters are now via qualified majority voting – 1/28th
      EFTA – the 5 EFTA members have a veto on new members and EFTA trade deals. Al three EFTA-EEA states have a veto in the EEA Council. There is access to EU policy via decision shaping (where all the actual decisions are made) but not to the final political rubber stamp.

      Effect on Anglo-scottish border?
      I come down on the side of EFTA-Scotland, as it’s more practical and blunts the unionist attack
      EU-Scotland – external EU customs and regulatory border for trade
      EFTA-Scotland – no customs border, but regulatory border
      We should stay out of Schengen, as Ireland has, and seek to maintain the Common Travel Area

      Process and time to join the Single Market
      EFTA-Scotland – apply to EFTA Council. No specific joining criteria but expect Norway to drive a hard bargain on fish!
      Once in EFTA apply to join the EEA. A year after independence, tops
      EU-Scotland. Create the required institutions which independent countries have as a matter of course, and we don’t. Realistically a few years to do that. Apply to the Commission for membership, negotiate the Chapters, realign legally (this would be easy), have membership ratified by all 27. Kirsty Hughes, who is as pro-EU as they come, can’t get the application stage under 5 years.

      We need to loose the magical (and very Brexity!) thinking that Scotland is so special that all the rules and processes will be waived for us.

    87. Hatuey says:

      A lot of people think getting rid of Sturgeon will be a fix, desimond, but it’s more likely that the SNP will collapse into chaos and civil war when she goes. The Labour Party is still divided over Blair.

      News just in…

      “NHS leaders in Scotland have discussed abandoning the founding principles of the service by having the wealthy pay for treatment.

      “The discussion of a “two-tier” health service is mentioned in draft minutes of a meeting of NHS Scotland health board chief executives in September.

      “They also raise the possibility of curtailing some free prescriptions.
      Scotland’s Health Secretary Humza Yousaf insisted the NHS would stay publicly owned and publicly operated.”

      “The minutes of the meeting seen by BBC News are marked “in confidence not for onward sharing” and highlight the degree of official concern about the sustainability of Scotland’s NHS in its present form.”

      (That’s from the BBC, no need for a link.)

      So, they’re basically going to allow people with money to skip the queue.

      Welcome to Sturgeon’s Scotland. Schools fucked, NHS fucked, you name it, ferries, child poverty, everything she touches is fucked.

      “There, where I have passed, the grass will never grow gain.” (Attila the Hun)

      Whatever happens with the Supreme Court ruling this week, it’s guaranteed to make things worse. That’s what she does, she makes everything worse.

    88. G-Man says:

      Ok… long time lurker, first time poster.

      Lots of comments about Indy in EU starting to bubble up; not unreasonably given that’s the premise being proffered in the latest ‘paper’.

      Obviously this is something that’s not in the gift of the SNP to offer. It can’t guarantee it will ever come to pass if Scotland votes for Indy. It’s down to every single separate member of the 27 EU states to agree to (and there are some odd character in that club).

      Even we’re it ever to come to pass, then there’s absolutely no detail on how long the entry process might take (plenty of ‘hopes’, but no facts), or indeed what we doin the interim.

      Obviously this is the stuff of political life. We all live for in-depth debate and argument, but my question is much simpler… where is the mandate giving authority fir the SNP’s position and isn’t our future min an IndyScot a decision for all Scots to take, regardless of how they voted?

      Given I’m likely to get the 2016 referendum cited I should probably also ask this… if the 2016 EU referendum should be honoured, then why shouldn’t Unionist have the right to expect the same adherence to the result of the 2014 IndyRef result too?

      Honestly, if this paper is our prospectus I fear we’re already humped. Added to the economic and monetary nonsense (we must break away from the UK economy that’s causing so much damage to us, by tying ourselves indefinitely to that self same economy) it appears we’re just running 2014, just hoping for a different result.

    89. Ebok says:

      @Robert Hughes

      I must say, Robert, I do enjoy your comments. Always refreshing and invariably fun to read, even when making a serious point.

      Too bad your avant-garde style is lost on some who appear to take these comments literally, missing out on the sharp irony.

    90. Shug says:

      Why is the SNP, via the national calling people out to the court decision. Previously there was reluctance and it was driven by salvo.

      The returns of wings must be concentrating the minds

    91. Stuart MacKay says:


      The NHS cannot continue in it’s present form. The service has rotted to the point where it’s on life support. There are only two options reform it or let private enterprise skim off the cream.

      We have a two tier system here in Portugal. It works well enough. For routine stuff like kids with earaches and pregnancy you go private to avoid the very long waits in the public hospitals where you have hang out with the poor. Doctors work in both systems. For the serious stuff you go public because you’ll still see the same doctors and in the large teaching hospitals there’s still a lot of talent and they have the experience that the cream-skimming private ones do not. Besides private medicine really isn’t interested in curing your cancer because that would dent profits – which are enormous.

      Portugal is finding out that in the two tier system the private side is parasitic and eventually will kill off the public service. Here doctors are quitting public service altogether because the state simply cannot pay them enough to keep them out of relative poverty. Already maternity services in many rural areas are closed on weekends and Christmas for example due to staff shortages. The only way to keep the whole thing going is to keep pouring money into it. Which works until there’s a serious downturn in the economy at which point it’s going to collapse completely.

      This is happening in a country where there is quite a bit of attention at preventative maintenance. Most towns have good sports facilities and the local government has a lot of social programs aimed at keeping old people active and hence out of doctors offices and hospitals. Scotland is nowhere near this level of sophistication and it will take decades to built such a capability.

      I believe that something like this will be needed to make public healthcare viable in the future. The entire system from top to bottom must be focussed on keeping people out of hospitals, otherwise the costs are ruinous and only getting worse. Pillaging African countries for cheap labour is not going to do it.

      The SNP are going to go for the two-tier system because it’s the easy solution for them. Be prepared to start paying through the nose for the right to stay alive.

    92. Robert Hughes says:

      ” If you’re unable to discern the difference between me or anyone else pointing out that being an anti English bigot like Rab is not the same as me or others calling out fringe nutters for spouting their disinformation and frequently bile BTL here I can’t really help you. Your sense of perspective seems a little off.”

      That was the entire point of my comment , Andy . Your tendency to lump disparate individuals into groups of * deplorables * . What do people who have questions about vaxx , the war etc have to do with someone making anti-English comments ?

      Zero . Yet you specifically lump them all together – look …..” it’s the sub-Trumpian folks LIKE YOURSELF AND OTHER sundry conspiracy theorising cranks, anti-vaxxers and Vlad fluffers. ”

      As for…. ” As you freely acknowledge you have personal experience of the kind of cranks mentioned. ”

      I’m more than a little taken aback you missed the – I thought obvious – satirical nature of my comment and somehow interpreted it as being in agreement with your facile dismissal of those who consider the term * Conspiracy Theories * to be a now redundant , catch-all cliche hollowed-out by scattershot application .

      The was my intention was the exact opposite

    93. Robert Hughes says:

      ” my intention was the exact opposite ” damn typos !!

    94. Robert Hughes says:

      Ebok @ 10.08

      Just seen yr comment . Cheers ma man . Glad you DIDN’T miss the satire 🙂

    95. Scotsrenewables says:

      I do hope Stu is going to be more proactive with the BTL commenters this time round.

      A lot of garbage creeping in, drowning out important news like the failure of Craig’s appeal.

      A handful of posters are taking up far too much screen space and doing the site’s image no favours.

    96. Kevin Evans says:

      Agree the SNP has stalled the indy movement but I always view the rise in support for indy from low 20% to 45% as not an increase in support for indy but it was the event of the referendum that made people nail their colours to the mast.

    97. Ruby says:

      A Scots university mired in a sexism scandal has appointed a female academic to oversee the medical school.

      It has now been announced that Prof Leach’s temporary replacement will be a woman, which may be seen as an attempt to still the waters.

      Does anyone else read this and wonder what they mean by female/woman?

      I haven’t a clue and ‘the once twice eight times a failure’ cant help.
      She/her says everyone is a woman if they say they are.

      The university are in a tricky position because if they exclude transwomen from the post they are being transphobic if they appoint a transwoman they are being sexist.

      Even just to appoint ‘a woman’ which presumably they mean a biological woman on a temporary basis is transphobic.

    98. Ruby says:

      Scotsrenewables says:
      21 November, 2022 at 10:46 am

      I do hope Stu is going to be more proactive with the BTL commenters this time round.

      A lot of garbage creeping in, drowning out important news like the failure of Craig’s appeal.

      A handful of posters are taking up far too much screen space and doing the site’s image no favours.

      What do you mean by garbage?

      Who are these posters you are referring to.

      I think it’s only fair to name these garbage posting posters so that they can defend themselves.

      The tricky thing with the subscription type funding is that if you are looking to have a handful of posters banned it could mean a handful of fewer subscriptions. That could range from £3 to £100 per month unless these posters who take up so much screen space & post garbage are freeloaders.

      PS I’m not a huge fan of Craig Murray.

    99. Willie says:

      Don’t typically look at the site but took a look at Dvotgoespop today and it is patently clear that SGP’s utter focus now is to attack Wings Over Scotland.

      This Kelly guy, if it is him at all is nothing now but a attack machine. Doesn’t take much imagination to realise how it may well be nothing less than a deep state media machine.

      Kelly, or at least what was Kelly’s site has, like the SNP, become a vehicle to undermine independence.

      The establishment got a fright in 2014, Scotland is even more important now with its energy resources, the desire for independence has not gone away, and therefore the establishment must continue to try to destroy anyone who would and could invigorate the drive for independence.

      Alex Salmond’s Court case was no accident. The prosecution of Mark Hirst was no accident. The jailing of Craig Murray and Manny Singh were no accidents. Marion Millar, Margaret Ferrier were no accidents. Special branch was investigating to no avail Kenny MacAskill. That was no accident. Stu Campbell was previously turned over by the Police. That was no accident. Wings are regularly banned from Twitter. Another accident.

      And now ScotGoesPop becomes a full time anti Wings platform.

      Just another accident or a stinking state fighting a dirty clandestine war to destroy the drive for independence.

      No wonder they called Northern Ireland the Dirty War – and yes, the UK security, deep state will stop at nothing.

      Scotland is in the grip of establishment every bit as much as the Irish Nationalists were in Northern Ireland or the blacks were in apartheid South Africa. Difference just now is the control is much more hidden.

      But back to ScotGoesPop. Folks will recognise it for the mouthpiece it has become – and why.

    100. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Robert Hughes

      I’m not responsible for your inability to make yourself clear, or your lame attempts at being a smart arse rendering your point opaque.

      What do people who have questions about vaxx , the war etc have to do with someone making anti-English comments ?

      They have everything to do with it, because the overlap between those doing it is almost exact. BTL discourse here often becomes a bin fire because the usual suspects render it so with their obsessional need to air their hobby horse issues – often at excruciating length and frequency – and to abuse anyone who questions either the content or the volume of their intellectual effluent.

      Rab Davis’ anti-English bigotry is simply indicative of the kind of behaviour we regularly see from others. Their hobby horse issues may differ, but the end results are the same.

      Just because the deplorables have different trigger issues doesn’t make them any LESS deplorable. The fact they may shame the same ultimate goal of independence, or that they might be “on side” on an issue like GRA doesn’t excuse them being pieces of work otherwise.

      The was my intention was the exact opposite

      I was giving you benefit of the doubt. Like I said: if you’re not part of the solution….

    101. Tony Little says:

      @Derick fae Yell

      Pretty much agree with your comments. Not sure about the overall timeframe for full membership of the EU (if that’s the route Scots want to move to) as membership depends on alignment with the Aquis, and afaiaa Scotland should already align fully as we haven’t (yet) seem the UK destroy all the EU legislation which has made many peoples’ lives better over the last 40 years.

      However whether it’s 5 years (or 2 or 10) the choice will at least be made IN Scotland, FOR Scots.

    102. sarah says:

      @ scotsrenewables: “… the failure of Craig Murray’s appeal…”

      I’m glad someone spotted this and has mentioned it.

      The consequence is that SNP/Scotgov has got away with yet another of their misuse/abuse of the legal system. This leaves us all vulnerable.

      Imagine if a policeman turns up on your doorstep with a fabricated accusation which COPFS then allows to be prosecuted? Who is going to report and assist you, the innocent party, when the senior judges and Lord Advocate are complicit and will probably go on to restrict the availability of jury trials?

      Craig needs £47,000 pounds to meet the bill. I know many of us donated in the first place to enable the case to go to ECHR, confident that he would win and thus stop the steady erosion of our rights and make the judiciary/police/COPFS “think again”.

      But now he and we all are in deep trouble. At least we can help Craig financially if enough of us can find a spare fiver down the back of the settee.

    103. Andy Ellis says:

      @Stuart MacKay

      The NHS cannot continue in it’s present form. The service has rotted to the point where it’s on life support. There are only two options reform it or let private enterprise skim off the cream.

      We already have a 2 tier system in some respects. Many of us will have personal experience, or know family members, who have been told they can either wait “X” months for NHS treatment, or pay £”X” to have private treatment if not immediately, certainly much faster. Those who can afford it will do it if they feel the wait is intolerable. Certain places like Ireland have composite system where they pay for routine visits and “low level” prescriptions.

      If we want to retain the classic Scottish NHS model of a service free at the point of delivery, then the money has to come from somewhere. I don’t see an issue expecting those who can afford to pay for routine appointments and low level prescription charges coughing up as long as the money it brings in goes towards funding services for those who can’t pay.

      Like lots of other areas of our society though, if we want excellent public services we have to be prepared to pay higher taxes and ensure companies and the wealthy don’t avoid contributing.

      That doesn’t seem to have been working all that well in the UK thus far…..!

    104. Andy Ellis says:

      @Tony Little

      I think many post indy would be happy with EFTA membership and/or a Norwegian style deal. Who knows what the international situation will be when the early days of our better nation finally dawn though?

      Also worth bearing in mind that Finland went from ground zero (i.e. not being part of the acquis communitaire) to full membership in 24 months. There’s little doubt that if an independent Scotland was keen to join the EU, then the EU would be very unlikely to place obstacles in our way and would – if it suited them – even be prepared to fast track Scottish membership on the right terms.

      There would seem to be very little downside for the EU in having Scotland at least as an associate member and part of the single market, if not as a full member as soon as practicable.

    105. G-Man says:

      @Andy Ellis and @Tony Little

      My personal preference would be EFTA EEA, but would equally happy with full EU membership. That said (to me at least) it’s more important that whatever path we take it the choice of the people of Scotland, and not the will of a tiny coterie if individuals within the leadership of any political party.

      I’m concerned at the glaring democratic deficit in what ScotGov are currently proposing as its prospectus – it has no mandate to claim Scotland will join the EU post Indy and leaves a wide open goal for opponents to twist the knife in this issue.

      We cannot simply run the same arguments as 2014 hoping for a different outcome. This needs thought and a strategy; neither of which are apparent from what is being heralded thus far.

    106. Hatuey says:

      In a nutshell, general levels of health in Scotland are relatively poor because the Scottish people are relatively poor… as a consequence of being in the UK. Poverty leads to poor health outcomes — that’s a fact, not an opinion.

      Anyone that thinks creating a two tier health system will fix that is living in cloud cuckoo land. It’ll actually make things worse, as has been demonstrated in various countries.

      If you want to fix Scottish health and the Scottish NHS, get us out of the UK. If you want to eradicate poverty in a country that is swimming in natural resources, skills, and potential, get us out of the UK.

      Sturgeon isn’t getting us out of the UK. On that basis she is responsible for everything that is shit.

      I have no qualms about saying that since her interventions in things like health and education have typically made things much worse, and she has devoted more time and effort to putting pro-Indy political opponents in prison and gender reform than she has put into independence.

    107. Stuart MacKay says:


      I keep being reminded of Jerry Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:

      First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

      Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

      The NHS like so much of government is now firmly in the grip of the second category when we really, really need it to be dedicated to the first.

      It’s not just extra money that’s needed – the current system would likely absorb any quantity of money that you cared to throw at it and you’d get little to show for it in return.

    108. Corrado Mella says:

      I know, I’m repetitive.

      Nicola Sturgeon is crippled by multiple psychiatric ailments, including a self-fulfilling prophecy of imposter’s syndrome.

      She failed as a solicitor – all of her doing.
      She couldn’t be a mother – sad and cruel but still a heavy burden.
      She failed with the OBFA and the Named Person Act amongst many others.
      She failed to defeat the ominous shadow of her predecessor.
      She’s failing our kids, beholden to a cabal of narcissistic sociopaths.

      All these failures compound onto that sense of being a fraud, a phony, an incompetent that her imposter syndrome already cripples her with.

      She’s paralysed by fear, the fear of laying the biggest failure possible onto Scotland: try and fail to bring it back to its lawful place, Independence.

      So she’s procrastinating. Acting busy with needless work, the more divisive and damaging the better, so she can justify inaction.

      For everyone’s benefit and out of pity for such a deeply troubled person, she must go.


    109. Desimond says:

      RE: 21 November, 2022 at 9:39 am
      A lot of people think getting rid of Sturgeon will be a fix, desimond, but it’s more likely that the SNP will collapse into chaos and civil war when she goes.

      I dont see it being a fix for anything but I do feel for sure that while Nicola is head honcho with no pressure whatsoever to stand down or push forward then nothing will change. We will just get feeble twists on old excuses and cue another General Election and another 4-5 years of the same water-treading whilst current generation of Representatives get even more comfortable at the Establishment Table.

    110. twathater says:

      Like others I voted to remain in the EU not just because I thought it would be better for Scotland but because at the time the money was on England voting out

      But TBQH I have been extremely disappointed in the direction EU leaders have been going and the stances they have taken with the massive corporations , IMO they are just another shower of neoliberal globalists and sturgeon is enthralled with them
      I became extremely disallusioned when they were all for adopting and embracing TTIP the transatlantic trade and investment partnership with America, which gave complete and utter control over to big business in the US , it was only through people power that it was SHELVED, it was never abandoned and going by the behaviour of European leaders it will be revived

      My opinion like others is that we should concentrate on EFTA and the benefits we can give and receive without being OWNED by anyone
      As a trading market the EU cannot be beaten but as a political entity there is far too much control demanded

      As for the SNHS, as one who has benefitted enormously individually and collectively family wise from the organisation I am disgusted and angered that there should be ANY discussion about any 2 tier involvement with the private health care parasites , that is just indicative of the greed of the snp,they are becoming more TORY by the day , and horsebox Russell put forward this idea in his book a few years ago which he denied

    111. John Main says:

      @Stuart MacKay says:21 November, 2022 at 1:48 pm

      It’s not just extra money that’s needed – the current system would likely absorb any quantity of money that you cared to throw at it and you’d get little to show for it in return


      But, as has been pointed out, the NHS occupies the role of national religion in these Godless times. No one can point out its failings and espect to escape the charge of heresy.

      Meantime, as has also been pointed out, the NHS model of healthcare is so good that precisely zero other countries around the world have copied it.

    112. John Main says:

      @ twathater says:21 November, 2022 at 5:48 pm

      But TBQH I have been extremely disappointed in the direction EU leaders have been going and the stances they have taken with the massive corporations , IMO they are just another shower of neoliberal globalists

      Here’s a wee quote from Unherd, spotted today:

      “At present, there is a big push by the Irish establishment to end Ireland’s neutral status. This is in line with the reality that Ireland is, in effect, no longer an independent nation: it is run politically by Brussels and economically by Silicon Valley, and its elite are globalist to the core.”

      What is happening to Eire now will happen to iScotland soon if the EUphiles get their way.

    113. Geri says:

      I’m going to be controversial.

      I don’t think we’re ready for an indyref. I think we’d lose.

      The Yes movement is splintered & it’s just toxic at the moment between Yessers loyal to Imelda & if we add the pampers brigade who turn up like fkn terrorists to that mix the media would have a field day at A&E for news bulletins every hour at how bad the Yes movement is. It’d be carnage. If it’s hurriedly put together it’ll be a dogs dinner.

      Sturgeon has to go. Even if a ref goes ahead she’s already told the court the UK government doesn’t need to implement the result, so they won’t.
      & if the court says no then we’re stuck in limbo until Scotland reconvenes it’s real parliament outside the confines of the Scotland Act & wm appointed civil servants thwarting every move.

      Assemblies need held. Call a convention. & please, this time, have a team of lawyers make it watertight!

      I think it was Alf Baird (Apologies if not) para phrasing here, who said Holyrood is a glorified county council not equipped to hold a referendum on our Nationhood/ self determination. It’s WMs rules they can change at any time when really we need an independent external body to make sure WM is adhering to international laws & best practice & that includes the franchise. No country allows transients a vote on constitutional matters unless they’ve been here X amount of years.

      I just don’t think Indyref is winnable at the moment.

    114. John Main says:

      Innarestin article on Unherd today about the state of the EU, viewed from a French perspective:

      EU economic and industrial policies, which are in effect mostly German policies, have caused immense damage to France, which is the EU’s second largest member.

      What these EU policies would do to iScotland is open to conjecture, of course. But to believe that iScotland would have any influence or control, when even France has little, is pure fantasy.

      Still, many of the EUphiles cling to a long-gone, nostalgia-tinted picture of what the EU once was. The times, they have changed.

    115. Andy Ellis says:


      No country allows transients a vote on constitutional matters unless they’ve been here X amount of years.

      How many times does this need to be explained to the hard of thinking? It’s the kind of false equivalence that if Rev Stu pointed out in one of his pieces in any other contexts, the nativists would all be praising him for, but you and others just can’t seem yo get it through your heads.

      So….one more for time for those not paying attention before: the franchise used for self determination votes has overwhelmingly been residence based. Don’t take my word for it, go and do your own research if you doubt it. The facts are easy to establish for anyone with an internet connection. Of the dozens of examples of self determination referendums in modern times, a few have imposed residence criteria, usually of 24 months.

      Imposing residence criteria for independence referendums based on putative future citizenship criteria is therefore absolutely NOT something every country does. You’re not comparing like with like.

      When Scotland becomes independent, it can establish its own citizenship criteria like all other independent states, and ensure they are applied to any constitutional votes or referendums which might be held. Doing so for #indyref2 would make Scotland an outlier and jeopardise the chances of obtaining international recognition of the process, and acceptance of the result domestically.

      The attachment of the nativist minority to this false argument only goes to show that you can’t kill a bad idea.

    116. Alison Rollo says:

      There seems to me only one outcome from the SC – delay until legislation passed in Holyrood. Just more time wasting. Westminster will decide the legislation is illegal and take it to the SC who will waste more time and then agree that Westminster is sovereign and Scotland needs to get back in her box!

    117. Stoker says:

      “This is the Catch 22 of devolution instead of independence. As an independent nation, Scotland would have control over all funds and could reassign as it pleased if it were to leave the EU. But as a devolved nation, Scotland must work within a fixed budget, and would find itself having responsibility for a whole raft of activities for which it has no funding agreed with Westminster.”

    118. Stoker says:

      “For Scotland this is the worst of both possible worlds. Even if the Scottish Government is able to stave off attacks on the NHS by private healthcare providers in the courts, it will still nonetheless end up unable to fund it. The whole point of the TTIP system is to force the NHS in England into an American-style insurance-based system that would see Barnett funding slashed as government spending was replaced with private.”

      “The real threat to the Scottish NHS is in staying within the Union.”

    119. Derick fae Yell says:

      @Tony Little

      Thank you.

      The timetable for a Scottish accessorion to the EU is pretty well set out in this by Kirsty Hughes. She’s a very pro EU person, but even she can’t get it below 4-5 years. Conforming to the Aquis is the easy bit – literally a single Act repealing the Tories post Brexit legislation. The harder bit is creating the institutional framework. Plus the process itself is inherently slow.

    120. John Main says:

      @Derick fae Yell says:22 November, 2022 at 4:17 pm

      She’s a very pro EU person, but even she can’t get it below 4-5 years

      That is good news, thanks for posting it.

      Maybes, given 4-5 years as an independent, sovereign nation, iScotland might get to like the idea so much, we will tell the EU to do one. Maybes, in that time period, some patriotic Scots will come forwards and help us run Scotland for the benefit of ourselves.

      Maybes we will collectively kick the colonised cringe of believing we can’t make it without external help. Just like the 160+ other successful and independent nations around the world.

      It’s nice to dream.

    121. Geri says:

      Andy Ellis.

      It is not international best practice. Take your sermon elsewhere. We’re trying to leave a Union by using the Unions rules. It’s impossible & will never happen. It’s set up to fail & the reason they broke Purdah last time without consequence as there was no *official* to make sure *Int law & best practice on the rights to self determination* was being adhered to or its rendered null & void & that includes the franchise, like it or not. It’s UN recommend on who votes. Who we going to complain to when the Unionists break the rules? The WM Tory party’s electoral commission? Aye righto, wtf could go wrong? A slap for being naughty?

      Genuine residents can vote. Wee George on his Uni travels cannot, neither can 2nd homes & short stay. Incidentally, it doesn’t allow external influences either – so there goes the BBC & Unionist parties not registered in Scotland, along with twits like Obamas interference. It’s best practice for a reason.

      Repeating the exact same procedure & hoping for a different outcome is the first sign of madness.

      This is the last shot if WM allows a ref to go ahead. After the next Naw vote we’ll be bolted in once & for all & this matter settled. What you gonna do? Be over the moon cause wee George had a vote & it was a nice thing to do? Pleeeease!

      Maybe Stu can do an article on international best practice & Int laws on self determination but you don’t need to be a genius to know you don’t follow the very country you wish to leave. Especially when we know the guaranteed outcome.

    122. John Main says:

      @Geri says:22 November, 2022 at 11:46 pm

      we know the guaranteed outcome

      You certainly have a lot of reasons why we can’t get Indy.

      Here’s something I have believed for a long time. Why not help to grow support for Indy among us Scots so that all of your reasons become irrelevant?

      After all, 1 million new Yes votes (which aught to be possible, given honesty, competence, idealism and maturity within the Indy movement) easily trumps 100K second home owners, students, etc.

      After the next Naw vote we’ll be bolted in once & for all & this matter settled

      Why would there be a Naw vote if Indy is such a compelling case? Indy should be an open door, which any eejit could open.

      Why so little confidence?

    123. Andy Ellis says:

      @Geri 11.46 pm

      I’m sure if Rev Stu was to do one of his forensic pieces on this the anlaysis would back up my position not yours. In previous discussions on this I’ve already pointed to scholarly articles and provided links to them discussing what the franchises used in post 1945 self determination referendums were.

      Not a single one used the kind of restrictive franchises being suggested by the most extreme nativists in here which would exclude anyone not born in Scotland, or alternatively lengthy residence periods of 10 years or longer.

      As for your defeatist take that we only have one more shot or the dream is dead, that’s just performative assertion on your part. We tell them when, how often and on what terms we decide on our self determination: no self respecting nationalist can or should believe otherwise.

      Perhaps that’s the real issue with the movement: too many defeatists asserting things they haven’t researched properly as “facts”?

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