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Do Unionists hate the English?

Posted on June 26, 2014 by

It’s becoming ever harder to keep track of the twists and turns of the No campaign on the thorny subject of immigration.

First we have astroturfing groups urging us from London to Vote no borders”, and the Better Together narrative of “border posts at Berwick”. But then we’re offered the rather desperate spectacle of the fear of immigration being used as a weapon against Scotland being able to control immigration with the powers of independence. 


We’ve already written about the ludicrous way in which the figures for net immigration were distorted by the media and the differing needs here. But there’s even more irony and hypocrisy in the No camp using immigration as a stick to beat Yes with.

Firstly, there’s the nature of those who move into Scotland. As part of the UK, we already have open borders with all other UK countries as well as with the EU. We have no choice or control over this and I’ve never seen any Scottish party, even lunatic fringe ones, suggesting we would need or want to control the numbers coming in from other parts of the UK.

From the 2011 census, 9% of people in Scotland were born in England, while 0.7% came from Northern Ireland and 0.3% Wales. By contrast, the Asian population – the largest ethnic minority group and one made up of a diverse range of nationalities – comprises a mere 3%. Polish immigrants make up a further 1.2%.

The White Paper’s proposals for immigration propose “open borders”, but only for the existing Common Travel Area and the EU. In other words, the status quo. It’s a policy which should delight those on the No side, as it offers precisely what they claim to want – no border being thrown up between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It will allow the kind of passport-free travel to see your Highland grannie (unless you’re travelling by plane, in which case you probably already need a passport) many are unjustly scared of losing with independence.

For those outside the EU there isn’t, and has never been, any suggestion of an open-borders policy. The White Paper states what the SNP policy would be:

“This Government will take forward a points-based approach targeted at particular Scottish requirements. The system will enable us to meet the needs of Scottish society with greater flexibility, for example by providing incentives to migrants who move to live and work in more remote geographical areas, assisting with community sustainability, or adding new categories of skills.”

This is the same method countries like Canada and Australia use for immigration – a position often lauded by conservatives and even UKIPers as a sensible way to run immigration policy, and one the UK should follow. Canada even manages to allow its provinces specific or different immigration requirements.

Quebec, for example, is able to require a level of French ability and Alberta has its own economic immigration programme designed to support, “Alberta’s economic growth by attracting and retaining work-ready immigrants to the province.”

The No campaign will argue that if Scotland has a different immigration policy it would require a border so England can prevent those arriving here from slipping over into England. But this is patent nonsense. If Canadian provinces can manage differing immigration, it’s inconceivable that two separate countries wouldn’t manage.

Across the EU, countries manage to have differing immigration policies and no border controls. Besides which, if someone from outside the EU secures a visa to work in Scotland in a skilled job we need people to do, why would they want to slip over the border to be an illegal immigrant in a hostile rUK?

So in playing the race and immigration card, the only people the No campaign appear to be demanding we put barriers up against are those from the rest of the UK – which puts them in a place more extreme than any supposed “nationalist” party in Scotland. 

Playing the race card in this way also makes a mockery of their smear campaign that the Yes campaign has anything to do with “ethnic nationalism”. These claims never seem to die, with John Major, JK Rowling and now even Stanley Baxter coming out with the old canard that we’re all anti-English, just weeks after Darling agreed that the SNP was driven by “blood and soil nationalism”.

(Although they’re the ones always going on about “foreigners”.)

Of course, there’s one scenario where border controls MIGHT become a reality. That’s if Scotland votes Yes and then the UK votes to leave the EU. Such an event might well lead to an influx of people moving up, especially from the poor regions in the north of England, for the new opportunities that would open up here as companies – who very much DON’T want to be out of Europe – fled to the nearest EU member state.

Most of those supporting an independent Scotland would regard this as a success for our fledgling nation, rather than a problem. But the No camp, logically, would be horrified at this flood of newly-“foreign” migrants and – we can only assume – would demand stringent controls on numbers be implemented by the new border posts they insist would exist by that point.

To which we can only ponder – what do Unionists have against the English? 

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  1. 26 06 14 15:38

    Do Unionists hate the English? | Scottish Independence News

170 to “Do Unionists hate the English?”

  1. TJenny says:

    Rev – ahem, the line under the pic ‘We’ve has already written’, needs a wee edit.

  2. desimond says:

    We’ve has


  3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:


  4. TJenny says:


  5. desimond says:

    How long before Alastair Carmichael says “Theres no I in immigration”

    Immigration : an anagram of ‘Im No Magrit I!’ which ties in nicely with the Easterhouse Suburban Oasis MP worrying about having furriners for family members!

  6. TJenny says:

    Rev – that’s Alert Readers for you.

  7. For those outside the EU there is, and has never been, any suggestion of an open-borders policy

    Should there be a “not” after the “is”?

  8. Votadini Jeannie says:

    LOL cats for Independence?

    Anyway, I really don’t get the “furriner” thing. Most of us don’t pigeonhole people in that way, and to start doing so just to try to prevent Scots from achieving democracy just says it all.

    The No Better Together, Thanks campaigners are just showing themselves to be the wee racists they claim that we are.

  9. Misteralz says:

    Nice G Wagen.

  10. dennis mclaughlin says:

    We have to hammer home the criminal situation here in Scotland of child poverty, increasing use of food banks and nae nooklear weapons thank you very much Mr Murphy.

  11. Macart says:

    NIce one Cath.

    They do have their collective knickers in a twist over border control and the constant use of the term foreigner. Does leave you wondering who the real xenophobes are? Or it bloody well should.

    They no campaign have spent an inordinate amount of time painting support for independence and especially SNP voters and members into the ethnic nationalist narrative. As yet the only people I’ve heard regard ‘foreigners’ with suspicion or indeed suggest some form of border control for ‘undesirables’ would be Westminster or BT.

    Spooky, but true.

  12. desimond says:

    Tomorrows headlines today

    King of Cybernats closes Scotland for the English!

    Stu Campbell,the mansion dwelling Bath resident, whom many call King of the Cybernats, today claimed Scotland could soon be free of all English people…zzzz. “i’m astonished” said a tearful J.K Rowling when told of this latest cowardly attack.

  13. Morag says:

    A lady at the West Linton meeting on Monday said something really strange. To put it in context she didn’t just have an English accent (many of those present had various varieties of that), her accent was cut-glass RP as produced by the best ladies’ finishing schools.

    She expressed a concern that after independence people in England would boycott Scottish produce and refuse to buy anything made in Scotland. Apparently this would be done out of spite. Ivan McKee said several times that people buy the best product for the best price and they don’t worry about the source to that extent, but she could not be reassured.

    I didn’t get called to intervene, but I wanted to say that after having lived in England (Hertfordshire and Sussex) for 25 years, a lot of my best friends were English, and she wasn’t describing the people I knew. That in fact I thought she was unjustly maligning her own people with her suspicions. I wanted to say that boycotting apartheid South Africa was one thing (and even that had only limited effect), but boycotting Scotland, a “new and emerging nation”, out of sheer spite isn’t something that’s in the English psyche.

    Perhaps a handful of people might sound off about it, and the Daily Mail might feature them, but a generalised boycott of whisky, Aberdeen Angus and all the rest of it, well no.

    How long did the furously-trumpeted boycott of Scotland after the release of Megrahi last? That was all over the net, with outraged Americans annoucing they were cancelling holidays and would never eat Scottish produce again. About a fortnight, max. I never heard of anyone in Scotland actually noticing any effect on their business.

    But although several people did say, people in England wouldn’t do that, the lady sat down repeating emphatically “well I think they would!”

    She was the English one. She was basically smearing her compatriots as nasty, petty-minded spiteful bigots. And rejecting the Scots’ attempts to defend them. It was the most bizarre exchange I’ve witnessed for quite a while.

    (A friend said perhaps she was worried that she would be discriminated against after independence because of her accent. But we agreed that if that was the case her fears were groundless. Even after independence, if she doesn’t want to self-identify as Scots, she can still identify as English and so long as she lives here she’s part of our community and that’s that. But we didn’t get the chance to say that to her.)

  14. Defo says:

    McLeish has been talking to those Russian furriners..

    «Scotland has a real choice in this referendum but sadly Unionist MPs, especially Labour and the Conservatives, just don’t get it,” he elaborated.
    McLeish said, «The better together campaign has been relentlessly negative and is losing votes to the Yes campaign.”

    «There is no vision being put forward,” according to the former minister, «The no campaign seems content with selling the past, offering a series of threats and seems incapable of being both passionate Scots and practical unionists.”


  15. Taranaich says:

    Cath: Playing the race card in this way also makes a mockery of their smear campaign that the Yes campaign has anything to do with “ethnic nationalism”. These claims never seem to die, with John Major, JK Rowling and now even Stanley Baxter coming out with the old canard that we’re all anti-English, just weeks after Darling agreed that the SNP was driven by “blood and soil nationalism”.

    (Although they’re the ones always going on about “foreigners”.)

    Such is the great, wretched conundrum at the heart of the unionist “foreigner” argument.

    “If you vote for independence, your English granny/son/cousin will become one of those FOREIGNERS – that what you want, you xenophobic anti-English racist Nat?”

  16. HandandShrimp says:

    Have No Together explained why foreigners are bad yet? (Not you Neil, obviously)

  17. Neil Craig says:

    Certainly much of the SNP nonsense about the English being involved in some vast conspiracy, along with “unpatriotic” Scots is difficult to credit, rationally, as other than racist. If a BNP supporter said that the idea that jazz had been invented by blacks was treason against whites one might assume (despite a “nationalist” here who claims BNP policy is of unlimited immigration) that there was some racism involved.

    Same when Salmond says something equally silly

  18. Alfresco Dent says:

    Could it not simply be the case that our opponents are morons? It certainly looks that way to me.

  19. Edulis says:


    Reminds me of the aftermath of 9/11 when Americans descibed the French as surrender monkeys and restaurants (sic) stopped selling French Fries.

  20. R whittington says:

    Don’t feed the trolls.

  21. HandandShrimp says:

    Neil you have just played the SNP are really Nazi’s like UKIP and the BNP card haven’t you?

  22. Cath says:

    Good post Morag. I always think the other argument that gets trotted out that goes something like, ‘We can’t vote for independence because they’ll punish us’ is similarly unfair on rUK and England (and a very bad argument for staying in a union in which we’re less than 10%). Why would they?

    We’ll become competitor nations officially, with rUK acting in its interests even if that’s against Scotland. But that happens anyway, not out of nastiness or spite, but necessity – a government will govern for where the majority are; it has to. After independence, Scotland escapes being a third of the landmass but only 10% of the population and becomes its own real country, speaking and acting for itself (with the same issues to be dealt with on how rural and remote areas are best able to control their own affairs ).

    That enables it to act in its own interests even if that does compete with those down south. That has to be a massive gain for Scotland. Sure it’ll be a loss for other parts of the UK, but no more so than it already has with all the other “competitor” nations in the world.

    If we do vote for independence, I’m sure there will be a period of bitterness – not least because of the way the referendum has been portrayed by the media down south. But ultimately we will be good neighbours and friends, as we are now, but probably with a good deal more respect.

    We will also have two voices and two votes internationally on issues where we do share interests, which will likely be most of them.

    I’m half English and I can’t picture any of my friends or family wishing to “punish” Scotland. Nor can I picture any sensible government at Westminster doing anything but shaking hands and welcoming an independent Scotland to the world, and figuring out how we can best work together as a new kind of British Isles.

  23. Peter Macbeastie says:

    I generally agree with ‘don’t play with the trolls;’ but when you see a whopping big porkie like that it’s very hard to ignore.

    Easier to laugh, because if anyone believes that any more they really need to be weaned off the Daily Mail.

  24. This was something I was pondering…

    They tout freedom of movement as a benefit of the UK
    English, Welsh, NI coming to Scotland = good

    and tout immigration of foreigners in iScotland as bad


    The say English, Welsh, NI will become foreigners after a Yes vote.
    So if foreigners are bad then that means that after Yes
    English, Welsh, NI coming to Scotland = bad

    Another top bit of doublethink brought to you by Better Together.

  25. FergusMac says:

    I am bemused at the No campaign stigmatising foreigners: “Will Grannie and Grandpa be foreigners?” “I don’t want my English cousins to be foreigners”.

    I have just realised that, in their world view, my lovely Swedish wife is a …gasp! “foreigner”! Ah – I have been happily married to a foreigner for 27 years – there must be something wrong with me. Not only that, but her father was Swedish and her mother German, so she must be some kind of schizophrenic foreign-foreigner, foreign even to herself!

    And just to compound our total “wrongness”, we are both voting Yes. Aagghh…

  26. desimond says:


    you forgot to include ‘haggis-huggers’ too 🙂

  27. Misteralz says:

    Just an addendum to my last post regarding the picture – a vehicle from a German manufacturer, built in Austria and sold to the military of at least two neighbouring countries, these being Austria and The Netherlands. Except that can’t happen with military kit built in Scotland…

  28. muttley79 says:

    How many people check products to see where they are produced while shopping anyway?

  29. Lesley-Anne says:

    I think this explains the thought processes currently operating within the Better Together gang. 😛

  30. Holebender says:

    It’s what psychologists call projection.

  31. Shy Unionist says:

    Morag, this site is full of commentators going on about how they are boycotting various products made in Scotland (Mackies ice cream, Baxters soup etc.)

  32. Correction: “For those outside the EU there is [not], and has never been, any suggestion of an open-borders policy.”

  33. Misteralz says:

    Muttley – I do, I won’t buy anything with a butcher’s apron on it if I can help it.

  34. Gillie says:

    I think unionists hate us Scots more.

  35. TheItalianJob says:

    @Gillie says:

    “I think unionists hate us Scots more.”

    Ha Ha Nice one.

  36. Andy-B says:

    Good article Cath, you missed out, the bit where Scotland would be a haven for potential terrorists to slip over the border to commit their dastardly deeds, according to the unionists.

    It strikes me as rather surprising that Westminster would want a border, when Newcastle is far further north than Scotland’s most southerly point the Mull of Galloway. Then again its Westminster we’re talking about so anything could happen.

  37. Illy says:

    They’re, as one lawyer whos blog I read (popehat) would say, “pounding the table”.

    They’ve been going on about “foringers” being “bad” for so long, they don’t realise that we’re not buying it up here.

    So they’re trying to set up a scare story, using another scare story as the basis, using another scare story as the basis…

    It’s no wonder they’ve gotten confused. Liers tend to have a hard time keeping their lies straight.

  38. Andy-B says:

    Regarding borders and foreigners, it seems less and less people are leaving Scotland, they’re choosing to stay, I wonder if they see a yes vote as a new start for Scotland, I hope so.

  39. Onwards says:

    The ‘English will boycott Scotland’ theory just seems ludicrous.

    It takes a nasty presumption that English folks are petty bigots who will throw the dummy at losing Scotland, rather than just accepting a democratic vote.
    And unreasonable boycotts just don’t happen in reality.

    Last time I was in London, the roads were crawling with BMW’s, Mercedes, and Porsches.
    All from one of their biggest competitors in the EU.
    People buy good quality goods, wherever they are from.

    And Scottish companies are equally entitled to stick on a ‘Made in Britain’ sticker if they think that will help down south.
    We will still be in the British Isles, so no change there.

  40. David Anderson says:

    Yup me too, moving back in August and bringing with me a Breton belle who intends to add her vote to the growing number of YESSERS, am hoping we can celebrate our child’s first birthday in an Independent Scotland. Cannae wait 🙂

  41. Jim Thomson says:

    Let’s just fantasise for a moment.

    19th Sept comes along and we have a Yes vote in our favour.

    How long will the average nay-sayer give the new “regime” (there will be lots of name calling) before they order up the Pickfords lorry and annoy the “South of iScotland” estate agents to find them a suitable (and much smaller) place to live?

    I suspect that they will simply go into a wee huff for a few weeks and then get on with their lives. Except, of course, companies like Mackies and people like Michelle Mone (spelling?) who will immediately close down all their operations and head south anyway (aye, right).

    Nothing will change in respect of their lives and daily grind.

    Or, am I wrong?

  42. Margaret Fitzpatrick says:

    I was at the launch of English Scots for Yes outside the Scottish Parliament today. I’m not English, although I lived and worked in England for many years, and I’m delighted to support them as they makes the important point that a Yes vote is not about nationality.

    There were lots of journalists and some MSPs. But best of all, a Wings banner. Ronnie Anderson persuaded me to start posting. He described me as Wee Willie Winkie, just keekin at this site. So this is my first post and I hope I haven’t made any mistakes because I don’t want to get the CAPITAL punishment.

  43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Morag, this site is full of commentators going on about how they are boycotting various products made in Scotland (Mackies ice cream, Baxters soup etc.)”

    “Full of” is something of an exaggeration, no? A few people are choosing to avoid a few products. I’m not buying Mackies ice cream or crisps until the referendum because I don’t want a penny of my money being sent to “Better Together”. After the referendum, whatever the result, they’ll be back on the shopping list.

  44. Tony Little says:

    I was listening to the Goon Show earlier today and there was an exchange between Eccles and Bluebottle that perfectly illustrates the circular illogicality of most of the No Better propaganda. With permission I will repeat an extract.

    Scene: a clockmakers shop, numerous clocks have just struck four o’clock

    Bluebottle: What time is it Eccles
    Eccles: Wait a minute I have it written down on a piece of paper. A nice man did it for me this morning
    BB: It says eight o’clock. Why do you carry it around with you?
    E: Well if someone asks me the time I can show it to them
    BB: But what if it’s not eight o’clock
    E: Then I don’t show it to them
    BB: Then when do you know it is eight o’clock
    E: Because it’s written down on this piece of paper!

    And so it is with the EU vs the Euro; Sterling vs the Euro; Family vs furriers; etc. etc.

  45. Clootie says:

    I’m considered a foreigner by the rest of the world.

  46. Clootie says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    26 June, 2014 at 2:37 pm

    Others have failed – tempted by a certain tunnock’s product – you know who you are!

  47. Cath says:

    “this site is full of commentators going on about how they are boycotting various products made in Scotland (Mackies ice cream, Baxters soup etc.)”

    A few people say they’re boycotting, and I’m sure if we vote yes there will be many Telegraph BTL commentators angrily saying they’ll boycott. Fact is, I doubt Tunnocks or Baxters have noticed any hit to their sales, and the same will be true after independence. People generally don’t actually boycott things they like.

  48. Robert Peffers says:

    I have to laugh as I’ve had non-Scots born neighbours in every house I’ve lived in since I left the, Pluckie’s Raw cottage I was born in.

    So in all those, almost 80 years, that I’ve lived in Scotland, I’ve lived next to ‘foreigners’,. At present I have English, Irish, Brazilian and Polish neighbours and all married to Scottish partners.

    Strangely the only one who claims NOT to be a YES voter is a Scottish, Gordon Brown supporting, Labourite. Mind you his wife said to me, “Dinna tell Auld Tam bit Ah’m gawn tae vote YES”. It fair made my day.

  49. R whittington says:

    What happens if the vote is a draw?

  50. Tony Little says:


    I hope “auld Tam” doesn’t read this blog then!

  51. heedtracker says:

    Give us back control of our own immigration policy teamGB. The Irish get USA green cards practically handed to them at the airport with all kinds of US/Irish travel perks but there is nothing like that for the yewkay, who are such No. 1 special allies.

  52. Andy-B says:

    O/T, God give me strength, I’m sick of reading Gordon Brown articles of how independence will bring Scotland too its knees.

  53. Morag says:

    Cath’s right. The few people on here who go on about boycotting Tunnocks or Baxters or Mackies are on a par with the few Daily Mail readers who’ll be featured as vowing never again to consume any Scottish produce after a Yes vote.

    Are we hurting these firms now? I doubt it. It’s just a personal protest a few individuals are making. Same with the handful of English people who might give up whisky for a few months after independence. Commercially negligible.

  54. Morag says:

    Cath also made a point I omitted. If the English really are so petty and spiteful as to want to hurt an independent Scotland, why the bleep would we want to stay in this marriage?

  55. wingman 2020 says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much… most in Westminster think the North is Newcastle.
    They dont really think about Scotland as part of the UK infrastructure.

    “Britain needs a third high speed railway line in the north of England because the cities there are “collectively not strong enough” to challenge the dominance of London, George Osborne will say.
    The Chancellor will use a speech in Manchester to say that there is now a cast for an east to west high speed line between northern cities.
    Britain needs a “northern powerhouse” of linked cities that can “take on the world”, Mr Osborne will say.”

    Source: Telegraph

  56. David Dodds says:

    Might I suggest that it’s time to cease defending “the English” most of whom are decent honest folk struggling to the same or similar extent we are. Rather I’d suggest that those seeking to hold Scotland down are “British”. Suggest that this becomes an expression of derision.

  57. arthur thomson says:

    The NO campaign is definitely xenophobic. They support weapons of mass destruction, teaching foreigners democracy by killing and maiming them and they scapegoat immigrants. They are obsessed with borders – which is what they really want but know it isn’t PC to verbalise it. Every time they mention the word ‘foreign’ we should ask them why they are xenophobic.

  58. scottish_skier says:

    Aye, I was on about this the other day; the fact that UKIP are anti-English.

    They say immigration to Scotland needs to be curtailed to reduced strains on public services… yet the biggest group of immigrants to Scotland are from England.

  59. Doug Daniel says:

    People will continue buying Scottish products for one simple reason: because Scottish produce is, to give it the technical term, Fine As Fuck.

    Top London chefs don’t use Stornoway black pudding as some sort of act of solidarity towards a fellow area of the UK – they do it because it’s the best black pudding in the world. That will continue to be the case post-independence.

  60. handclapping says:

    @wingman 2020
    Mr O can talk about it. Our Scots Government gets on and does it. All 4 lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow will be electrified by 2019. Now that’s linked cities.

  61. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Alfresco Dent

    Shades of Morons in Space?

  62. gordoz says:

    The answer to the question has to be YES –

    For my part in the last 3 yrs or so I have noticed YES supporters growing up a lot and avoiding drawing England or English Culture into the debate in anything other than a freindly neighbour way.

    Just listen to the many voices of the YES campaign from England and you see why. A civic, citizen based, democratic form of nation building Independence, not understood by blinkered fools like Alistair ‘ Blood & Soil Britain’ Darling or ‘One Nation Labour’.

    P/olitical, I/ntellectual, C/ivic & K/indred of Spirit

    P.I.C.K. Independence and build a new civic democratic Scotland. And Labour can’t see such a vision – stuff them; (LFI excluded of course)

    We have far more in common with English Yes voters and other nationalities or ethnic backgrounds than we could possibly have with those labelling themselves as ‘Proud Scots’ or in other words, the Jim Murphy’s of this world who tell activisits at a bus stop – ‘I’m proud to put Scotland first, but Im also British’ (Question : Just when did a Labour MP at Westminster ever think of putting Scotland First ??)

    We’re not going anywhere after Independence is established and neither is England.

    Its been obvious for a very long time that No Voters & journalists are almost the sole spouters of Anit-English tendancies in Scotland; and No its not in jest either – I’ve heard them and had to call them out on this bit of fun as they put it.

    ” Ah’m votin no for Scotland and Britain but ah still hate the English like ” Ehh ? Are we supposed to be inmpressed by such guff ?

    ” I wish that yin would fxxk off back to England where he belongs ” Ehh? Seriously ? You dont expect me as a Scot to be offended was a Yes voter reply ?

    Both heard today from Scots working at a University – both Labour ‘No Thanks’ bananas of the worst kind .. oh and ‘Proud Scots’ like most of Labour.

    Its suits their sly double agent game out there in the community but dont let it full you.

    P.I.C.K Independence

  63. FergusMac says:

    Clootie, what do they know, they are all foreigners!

  64. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh look, it’s the launch of ENGLISH Scots for YES at Holyrood. I guess that makes it official. YES are NOT racist against the English after all. That’s all right Project Fear WE accept your unreserved apology. 😛

  65. MajorBloodnok says:

    Tony Little says: I was listening to the Goon Show earlier today and…

    Ah, they don’t write ’em like that any more (it says here on this piece of paper).

  66. McV says:

    Excellent piece. Echoes many of my own thoughts, especially about Darling.
    A man born in London, yet raised in Scotland and has chosen his identity as Scottish not English, claims that Scots who want independence are anti-English.
    I want to know “What’s your problem with being English, Alistair?”

  67. MajorBloodnok says:

    It seems that Unionists hate everybody, including themselves. So to answer Cath’s original question, yes, they do.

  68. Chic McGregor says:

    The English people are amongst the nicest, fairest, people on the planet. Sadly, and quite possibly not unrelated to that fact, their ruling elite are the exact opposite. Self serving, corrupt, dishonest and delusional bastards with an irrational sense of entitlement and privilege.

  69. gerry parker says:

    @ Lesley-Anne.
    Yes – I was there and actually got in the photo.
    Not as well attended as I thought it would be but there were a few wingers there, and me and Ronnie made some new contacts. Looking forward to the 4th July.


  70. Chic McGregor says:

    P.S. NEVER confuse the two.

  71. Truth says:

    Well, last Christmas when I was at the outdoor market in Birmingham I bought some mulled wine from the little stall I have gone to in the past.

    The lady heard my accent and asked how I would vote in the referendum. I was left in no uncertain terms that she wouldn’t be buying any more Scottish produce if we vote yes.

    I smiled at her and said it was a shame, and that it’s her who will be losing out, as we’ll just sell it to someone else. I finished with a patronising smirk and reassured her I would still buy her mulled wine. The look in her face!

  72. Derek M says:

    Great work Cath 🙂
    Thankfully i have never understood this mentality but unfortunately i have experienced it first hand on a trip to London a few years ago ,i had to stop for petrol and went to pay for it ,i had 3 £20 “Scottish” pound notes in my wallet when i handed the elderly lady behind the counter the money she said “we do not accept foreign currency” i was appalled at this and replied its not foreign its Scottish which in her mind made no difference what so ever,i had to find a bank to withdraw the money to pay for it,so to some people we are already foreigners.
    I have never had English bank notes refused in Scotland because they are foreign currency.

  73. desimond says:

    @Doug Daniel

    Will there be brown sauce to put on our Stornoway Black Pudding after Independence?

  74. caz-m says:


    Remember to keep up all those YES posters after we win Independence, because the word YES will still be relevant on the 19th of September and beyond, as in,

    YES! we done it.

    So don’t pull down those YES posters/stickers too quickly.

  75. Lesley-Anne says:

    gerry parker says:

    @ Lesley-Anne.
    Yes – I was there and actually got in the photo.
    Not as well attended as I thought it would be but there were a few wingers there, and me and Ronnie made some new contacts. Looking forward to the 4th July.


    Great to hear Gerry. Thing is doing stuff like this during the week can cause problems, especially as folks might have problems getting off work etc, but still great to see those who did turn up. 🙂

    Also good to hear that both you and Ronnie have some new contacts, hopefully they’ll make the occasional appearance on here soon. 😉 (I was going to say “odd appearance” but thought better of it. 😛 )

    Trouble I have with all those get together wee soirées is they are in the Central Belt or Dundee, I’m sort of a wee bit further South. Well a LOT further South… near Annan and Gretna. 😛

  76. chalks says:

    This foreigner stuff, yes it is psuedo racist….BUT it is again horseshit……all people living in Scotland and their children will still retain British citizenship….

  77. gerry parker says:

    @ Lesley-Anne.
    Aye, it’s surprising how many lurkers you meet. We always encourage them to come on and make their voice heard along with everybody else.

    Well, that’s pretty far south, I worked in Dumfries for about 6 months, but that was many moons ago.


  78. Churm Rincewind says:

    As usual, I’m a bit lost. The UK already has a points-based immigration system, setting aside the EU and allowances for temporary workers.

    The SNP is also proposing a points-based system for an independent Scotland.

    But if the points-based systems differ between an independent Scotland and rUK, then isn’t there a border control issue? Otherwise Scotland would have to welcome anyone deemed acceptable under the rUK’s requirements and vice versa.

    Which in my view wouldn’t actually be a real-life problem, but I can see why it’s an issue to be addressed.

  79. Alex says:

    This is what they will see looking at Jedburgh

  80. Lesley-Anne says:

    Anyone who missed the slap stick comedy show today a.k.a. The Johann Lamont Put Down Show can watch it here. 😛

  81. Neil Craig says:

    No Handshank I played the “look at what that idiot Salmond really said” card and you replied with “I have no other card so lets do the Godwin lie about UKIP again” and lost.

    That is why every honest separatist here told you off for such a stupid lie (unless you care to try and prove it). But only every honest Yes supporter.

  82. Cath says:

    “The English people are amongst the nicest, fairest, people on the planet. Sadly, and quite possibly not unrelated to that fact, their ruling elite are the exact opposite”

    To be fair, that’s true of people the world over.

  83. Gillie says:

    Maybe we have a new name for Better Together


  84. desimond says:


    All the YES posters and the voting cards should be gathered up and recyled to create a glorious Independence Baton which can be lit and carried around Scotland lighting the beacons in each city, town, village and But ‘n’ Ben in Scotland throughout 2016..finishing with the Saltire Fireworks being fired over Holyrood 🙂

  85. desimond says:

    BBC Scotland getting desperate now.
    Their main headlines page shows ‘latest updates’:

    Welfare: Benefit fraud worth £16 discovered

  86. caz-m says:

    “Impressionist Ronni Ancona admits it was hard to let go of the Commonwealth Games baton once she had sampled life as a baton bearer”

    Would this be the same Ronni Ancona who slaughtered Scotland on the Wright Stuff a few months ago, who said she was bullied at school because she had a little bit of English in her.

  87. Brian Nicholson says:

    The Story of Grouseland

    A variation of a tale told by Canadian Tommy Douglas in 1944 (of course, Tommy was born in Selkirk)

    It’s the story of a place called Grouseland. Grouseland was a place where all the little grouse lived and played, were born and died. And they lived much the same as you and I do.

    They even had a Parliament. They used to have a grouse parliament but they did away with that.

    Now, every four years or so, they had an election. They would mass together and to fly to the polls and cast their ballots. Some of them even got taken to the polls. And then they got taken for the next four years afterwards too. Just like you and me.

    And every time on Election Day all the little grouse used to go to the ballot box and elect a government. A government made up of big, fat, black ferrets.

    Now if you think it strange that grouse should elect a government made up of ferrets, you just look at the history of Scotland for last 300 years and maybe you’ll see that they weren’t any thicker than we are.

    Now I’m not saying anything against the ferrets. They were nice fellows. They conducted their government as they saw fit. They passed good laws–that is, laws that were good for ferrets.

    But the laws that were good for ferrets weren’t very good for grouse. One of the laws said that grouse nests had to be unhidden so a ferret could find it. Another law said that grouse could only fly at the afternoons–so that a ferret could get his breakfast without too much effort.

    All the laws were good laws for ferrets. But, oh, they were hard on the grouse. And life was getting harder and harder. And when all the grouse couldn’t put up with it any more, they decided something had to be done about it. So they went en masse to the polls. They voted the black ferrets out. They put in the grey ferrets.

    Now the grey ferrets had put up a terrific campaign. They said: “All that Grouseland needs is more vision.” They said: “The trouble with Grouseland is those tiny round nests we got. If you put us in we’ll establish large square nests.” And they did. And thus we now had square nests that were twice as big as the round nests, and now two ferrets could get in at the same time. And life was tougher than ever.

    And when they couldn’t take that anymore, they voted the grey ferrets out and put the black ones in again.

    Then they went back to the grey ferrets.

    Then back to the black ferrets.

    And on and on it went for generations.

    Finally, they even tried half black ferrets and half grey ferrets. And they called that coalition.

    They even got one government with a few ferrets with tiny yellow spots on them: these ferrets lived in nests and flapped around like grouse but still ate like a ferret.

    You see, my friends, the trouble wasn’t with the colour of the ferret. The trouble was that they were ferrets. And because they were ferrets, they naturally looked after ferrets instead of grouse.

    Presently there came along one little grouse that had an idea.

    My friends watch out for the little fellow with an idea. And he said to the other grouse, “Look fellows, why do we keep on electing a government made up of ferrets? Why don’t we elect a government made up of grouse?”

    “Oh,” they said, “he’s a Bolshevik. A Separatist! Even called him a CyberGrouse! Lock him up!” So they put him in jail.

    But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a grouse or a Scot but you can’t lock up an idea.

    On September 18th, Scotland like Grouseland can make that idea reality or it can stay in jail.

    Make the right choice, fellow Grouse.

  88. gordoz says:

    @caz-m says

    Yes indeed the same woman who ‘sold us out’ on the infamous show down south.

    Waste of space.. but then its the record, they’ll print any shit, to rattle the YES vote.

  89. X_Sticks says:

    @Margaret Fitzpatrick

    Welcome aboard Margaret.

    Good to see Ronnie (and Gerry) persuading more lurkers to participate.

    The only problem is I can’t keep up with the information overload!

    Look forward to seeing the English for Yes on Reporting Jockland tonight (or maybe not, eh?)

  90. HandandShrimp says:


    The article you linked didn’t say what Salmond said, it merely had a link to the Daily Record which (apart from being a mindless comic) didn’t open for me. The article itself which I could read was not very complimentary about the BNP or UKIP and used them to attack Salmond. He was in effect saying all three were racist Nazis.

    If that floats your boat so be it.

  91. caz-m says:


    Jamie McIvor
    BBC Scotland education correspondent

    Does he really talk like that all the time? Surely not.

    Do you think when he gets home from a hard day’s scaremongering at Pacific Quay he say’s to his wife,

    “hello darling, do you think I could have a wee cup of tea please”.

  92. Andrew says:

    Hi folks,

    I’m not trying to hijack this thread so apologies in advance if anyone is offended. But – any chance some of you kind people could repost this link on your Facebook or Twitter accounts to try and raise a wee bit of cash for the Yes Stirling campaign office?

    We’re still a wee bit short and your extraordinary generosity will make a difference as it has in the past for so many other similar worthy causes on this site.

  93. Morag says:

    I met a lurker last night at the Academics for Yes meeting. Hi Ghillie, why not post a comment?

  94. Iain (orri) McCord says:

    The impression I get is the argument is there will be border controls going from Scotland into England and not, one would hope, going the other way. It’s nothing to to with anti-English feeling on the part of Scotland but rather playing on a stereotypical xenophobia in England. A stereotype that’s hard to dismiss when you’ve got a party like UKIP on the rise in the rUK.

    The justification seems to be that Scotland could not be trusted to control it’s own borders or would be forced into Schengen despite that making absolutely no sense as the only land border we might have with another EU country would be with England. Any other entry into Scotland would be by Air which requires passports and by sea which might also involve inspections. Another is that people will use lax entry to Scotland as a stepping stone into England.

    So in reality it’s an extension of the we’ll attempt to cut you off from Europe kind of scenario which is kind of dodgy when you look at the embargo against scots exports imposed prior to 1707 as part of the strategy used to force Scotland into the union. If it was about preventing people from the rUK entering Scotland it’d be a different kettle of fish and you’d be entering a Cuban blockade kind of scenario.

  95. Another Union Dividend says:

    Au contraire

    I reckon the Unionists love the English as that 9% segment of voters in Scotland will win it for the NO campaign unless we can persuade them that a social democratic Scotland is in their best interests.

  96. desimond says:

    Looks like poor old Roni Ancona made a bad impression!

    #tip your waitress!

  97. heedtracker says:

    Who needs immigrants? Or another day, another round of ferocious vote NO scares from creepy old BBC in Scotland. We have no GP’s left so vote no, except there’s a shortage of Doc’s across the whole of Europe.

    But why let these little facts of teamGB/EU life get in the way of frightening the life out of everyone in Scotland.

  98. R whittington says:

    I won’t have a word said against Ronnie Ancona. She is a wonderful woman.

  99. caz-m says:


    I have noticed that BBC Scotland presenters seem to have deeper and gloomier voices than most of the other TV presenters on Sky or ITV.

    It must be deliberate, all part of Project Fear. Their news reader Nina Spence on GMS, has one of the creepiest voices on the radio.

    And don’t forget Jamie McIvor’s impression of the Rev I M Jolly. All part of the service, bullshit story told in a deep, depressing voice.

  100. IcySpark says:


    BBC debate in Aberdeen recorded last night.

  101. Im back from English Scots for YES launch,nice to meet Gerry and Ronnie there(wingers)and hope to see you on the 4th july!

    I got interveiwed by STV & BBC,and hopefully both channels will cover it tonight.

    Was not expecting such a big media presence,Math did a great job organising it and met so many nice folk!

    Met a lovely man from French for YES (oui)who will be launching on the 14th july,same place same time i think.
    Looking good for YES votes!

  102. heedtracker says:

    There’s actually a world wide shortage of medics as here in the USA for example

    “Doctor Shortage Getting Worse”

    But CNBC are probably not using issues over global lack of Docs to attack say Scottish democracy, like our chums in Pacific Quay and this is smirky old Jacky Bird’s headline vote no frightener for tea time Scotland?

    “GPs are facing the “biggest workforce crisis in a generation”, a Scottish doctor has warned.”

    Ah perfidious Albion

  103. gerry parker says:

    @ Debbie, great meeting you and will be looking out for you on the news.
    Next occasion is the 29th at Pacific Quay.

  104. heedtracker says:

    I am picking at this particular BBC bettertoogether frightener de jour scab but even Norway is short of medics but with has its own check point free borders with Finland and Sweden. Plus Norway is not yet governed by SNP or AlicSamin.

  105. Mary Bruce says:

    There was a discussion of the boycott produce thing on twitter the other day and someone posted about how everyone still drinks Vodka after what Russia did in Ukraine, no one cares about boycotting it.

    It will be the same with whisky and irn bru. Any talk of boycotts is all just another pile of farmyard slurry to scare us into a no vote.

  106. Helena Brown says:

    On the boycotting of goods, it should be noted they are all one thing made in Scotland.
    Nobody I know has considered boycotting English or Welsh goods. I do not much like Mackies ice cream, dislike Tunnocks teacakes and as for Michele Mones Bra’s never seen them on sale so I am not boycotting them merely not buying them as per normal.

  107. Helena Brown says:

    Mary may I suggest we try and buy some Ukraine Sparkling wine for our celebration on the 19th September, Cinzano bought them over, based in Odessa, superb, I know we drank seven bottles, not at a sitting I may add.

  108. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Boycotting of Scottish produce worked well for the ‘Boycot Scotland’ agent provocateurs when Megrahi was released Non ?

  109. heedtracker says:

    @ Helena Brown, now departed Dr Maitland Mackie, boss of Mackies had only one vote and he employed a lot of Yes voters, like Tunnocks do do. Mackies Traditional ice cream really hits the spot with Butterkist Toffee Popcorn, Butterkist Toffee Apple popcorn and all new Butterkist Caramel Toffee popcorn. oh baby

  110. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Lesley Anne



    I actually think that Ruth Davidson enjoys it too.

  111. caz-m says:


    This Doctor is attending a BMA conference in England. Where they dip in and out of Scottish stats and English stats and UK stats. He doesn’t sound to YES friendly to me.

    And Doctor shortages will only get worse in England. To qualify as a Doctor in England takes five years, at £9000 a year is £45,000 basic course fees. Plus, Oxford are the first of many universities in England that want to raise the cap to £16,000 a year.

    So you could be looking at basic Uni fees to qualify as a Doctor in England at around £80,000.

  112. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Helena Brown

    Bit too sweet for me.

  113. Lesley-Anne says:

    Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Lesley Anne



    I actually think that Ruth Davidson enjoys it too.

    Funny I was thinking that BtP. I will tell you one person who does NOT enjoy FMQ’s though and that is the *ahem* star of the show…Johann Lamont. 😛

  114. heedtracker says:

    @ caz-m, its an interesting frightner from the BBC though. Takes 7 years to become a GP and it was Crash Gordon’s New Labour policy to really boost pay for all teamGB medics with huge pensions from the late 90’s onwards. How’s that worked out? still short of GP’s.

    But here we are getting project feared by the usual media BBC attacks on Scottish NHS and all despite the fact that many giant medical services across the planet are chasing a very limited supply.

    Ofcourse its the immigration issue of medics from former eastern bloc countries that are really suffering from a doctor shortage. Although they don’t blame YES voters in Scotland or AlicSamin.

  115. Caroline Corfield says:

    O/T but I thought this might interest people: from Willie Rennie’s fb

    Do you have an ?#?indyref? question for Alistair Carmichael MP?
    He will be taking to the internet for a twitter Q&A this coming Tuesday lunchtime (1 – 2pm) on the Scotland Office twitter feed (@ScotlandOffice). Watch out for the hashtag ?#?AskAC?.

    Now that will be interesting….

  116. scottish_skier says:

    SCOTLAND’s newly-elected Ukip MEP David Coburn has said the country should breed more rather than allow increased immigration.

    Astonishing anti-English xenophobia.

  117. Ronnie says:

    @ Heedtracker,

    Not to mention Haggis & Black Pepper crisps, also Scotch Bonnet Chilli Pepper crisps.

    Luverly with a Cally 80 Shilling…

  118. Phil Robertson says:

    The mainstream BT campaign queried the migration numbers on their feasibility i.e. whether the numbers could be achieved. Other peripheral groups e.g. Migration Watch have a different agenda but the main UK parties (excluding UKIP) has a fairly similar policies on non-EU immigration. Admittedly that sets to one side the complexities of iScotland in the Eu and rUK opting out.

    That is not to say that independence does not have cross-border issues. rUK students in Higher Education is one of the more obvious.

  119. caz-m says:


    Is it seven years to qualify as a GP, that’s an even bigger bill you are landed with in England then.

    A wee bit o/t, I was channel hopping last night and landed on Scotland 2014, I was only there about ten seconds but I got this overwhelming feeling that I had landed on the “dark side”, it felt really weird.

    It was as if I was alone with Sarah Smith, her Unionist guest and the cameraman, that no one else in the world was watching this programme.

    Creepy stuff.

    BBC Scotland, don’t watch alone.

  120. Neil Craig says:

    HS the fact that Salmond “in effect” or otherwise says something is hardly evidence it is in some way true. Salmond is as dishonest as he is totalitarian. Which is clearly also true about the separatists here who do not
    reject your Godwinism.

  121. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andy-B says: “Then again its Westminster we’re talking about so anything could happen”.

    It already has Andy-B. Did you not see the news item where the I.O.M. had to formally request Mr Cameron to correct an official UK map that featured the I.O.M. as part of the Union.

    As I’ve pointed out several times, Cameron fondly imagines he is PM of Britain and that Her Majesty’s Government is his government.

  122. Black Douglas says:

    Hi Neil

    Hope your enjoying your shift tonight?

    I know we all are, hilarious as usual.

  123. Croompenstein says:

    Oh Neil, Neil, Orange Peel..

  124. cynicalHighlander says:

    Anyone got a link to the Robin MacAlpine Jimmy reid foundation event down at the House of Commons tonight?

  125. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tony Little says: “I hope “auld Tam” doesn’t read this blog then!”

    Ach, Tony, She’s safe enough. I’ve known Tam for nearly 60 years and he has the Daily Rekker delivered. He never gets past the back pages and he struggles to understand English grammar.

    Mind you he can figure out the returns on a winning bet faster than William Hill can

  126. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andy-B says: , “God give me strength, I’m sick of reading Gordon Brown articles of how independence will bring Scotland too its knees.”

    Hillarious, Andy-B. The real laugh is that Gordon Brown, and his sidekick Darling, actually did bring the UK to it’s knees. The UK hasn’t managed to get back on its feet ever since.

  127. Col says:

    I was gobsmacked today when I read a metro free paper on a Glasgow bus. After reading a story that was so obviously twisted around about how Brian Souter fears indy YES vote I got to the letters page. Apparently Scotland is full of glum, negative moaning people and our country is a barren depressing wasteland. It wasn`t the only letter that was anti SNP, indy. There was no pro letters if I remember correctly. So clear that whoever prints the paper is working to an agenda.
    We have to overcome the media, I hope their behavior in this debate is actually debated about itself before we go to vote.

  128. Schiehallion! Schiehallion! says:

    Do cybernats dream of electric blues?

  129. caz-m says:

    Has Johann Lamont’s new mates in the Better Together coalition, the Orange Order, not got a few rallies coming up soon.

    John Reid and Johann Lamont could put on their finest Celtic regalia, rap themselves in the Union Jack and walk at the front of one of their rallies along side Henry Dunbar, Grand Master of the Orange Order in Scotland.

    Better Together. My arse.

  130. Nana Smith says:

    Ooh Aah Ed Balls up warning in the herald and the hootsmon….border controls, currency. Geez give me peace

    Heartily sick of the lot of these con men.

  131. caz-m says:


    I think the pro-unionist English run Daily Mail owns the Metro.

  132. Nana Smith says:

    Sorry if this has already been posted. Wonderful open letter to George Galloway

  133. Erchie says:

    In case anyone considers Neil Craig as a troll, he isn’t. He really is like that.

    Seriously, yes.

    More to be pitied than anything else

  134. Paula Rose says:

    Would it be a good idea to move the border to Hadrian’s Wall? Then if the wotsits want border posts – a few bricklayers should be able to get the job done pronto.

  135. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Paula Rose

    Some Border Collies would be enough.

  136. HandandShrimp says:


    I haven’t indulged in Godwinistic activities. I do occasionally but like Roger Rabbit, only when it is funny.

    I am pointing out that you are attempting to prove Salmond is a bad guy using an article that was sticking the boot into Salmond, the BNP and UKIP. That article referred to something that was reported in the Record, itself hardly an indication of veracity, which I was unable to open.

    If you accept that the author of that blog is correct then you are taking on board that he was calling the political right in the UK generally racists/fascists (if there is a Godwin floating in this mix then it his I am just pointing out where this is leading). I suspect that your position is that the blogger is right about Salmond but wrong about UKIP etc, but that rather defeats the point of the article you linked which is trying to show that Salmond is as bad as the BNP and UKIP.

    Your point that it doesn’t matter what Salmond says because he is lying is little more than a tautology of rhetoric.

  137. Paula Rose says:

    @ HandandShrimp – are you expecting wee Neil to understand logic?

  138. caz-m says:

    Why is population growth in England OK, yet is bad in Scotland, Northern Ireland and wales.

    The UK population has grown by 10 Million in the last 50 years. Yet Scotland’s population has hardly changed in the last 100 years.

    Could it be anything to do with the fact that you need population growth so your economy can thrive. And we cant have that happening in any of the other three countries of the UK, can we?

    The trend continues to this day.

  139. gerry parker says:

    @ Bugger, at 5:41

    “I actually think that Ruth Davidson enjoys it too.”

    You’re not suggesting that Ruthie likes a good spanking are you?


  140. HandandShrimp says:


    I was vaguely hoping like


  141. mogabee says:


    Please leave Jamie McIvor alone. As a Campbeltown boy he is all right.

    It’s the BBC that’s rubbish! 😉

  142. Albaman says:

    HandandShrimp ,
    Why do you encourage “him”?, when ever I come across a putrid smell I just quietly leave the room.

  143. Fireproofjim says:

    Re the free Metro. Every time I go on a bus I take a few Yes leaflets or newsletters to put inside the Metro for a bit of balance.

  144. Paula Rose says:

    I did ask on a thread earlier this week, this very question –

  145. Ian Mackay says:

    First Better Together came to attack the Socialists, and I did not speak out–
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then Better Together came to attack the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out–
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then Better Together came to attack the Jews, and I did not speak out–
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then Better Together came to attack me — and there was no one left to speak for me…

    … Not this time. The No campaign’s divide and rule tactic is transparent and we are too strong. The Yes campaign have reason on our side and everyone can see through Westminster’s absurd scaremongering. With each passing day more and more people turn to Yes and Better Together’s panicked attacks only instil confidence that Yes is winning.

    On the 18th September we will speak out.

    And Scotland will be independent.

  146. Paula Rose says:

    Only if we get out there and talk to our people, Ian.

  147. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    o/t, anyone else having problems listening to derek batemans broadcast
    no link in MS ie play recording

    link to donate disappearing

  148. Adrian B says:

    @ Schodinger’s Cat,

    o/t, anyone else having problems listening to derek bate mans broadcast

    Listening to it right now:

  149. Rock says:


    “And Scottish companies are equally entitled to stick on a ‘Made in Britain’ sticker if they think that will help down south. We will still be in the British Isles, so no change there.”

    They could theoretically say ‘Made in the British Isles’, but certainly not ‘Made in Britain’.

    People talk about Britain as a political unit, not a geographic unit, unless they are discussing geography.

    The Republic of Ireland is also part of the British Isles. Do any companies there use the label ‘Made in Britain’?

    If rUK calls itself Britain after independence, only goods made within its political borders could be rightly labelled ‘Made in Britain’.

    Scottish companies could use the label ‘Made in EU’ if they somehow think that ‘Made in Scotland’ is not good enough.

  150. Rock says:


    “This foreigner stuff, yes it is psuedo racist….BUT it is again horseshit……all people living in Scotland and their children will still retain British citizenship….”

    If they want to that is. I am sure there will be many people here who would not want to be British citizens.

    I am sure any Scot showing a Scottish passport at a border will get a smile from the immigration officer because Scots are well known and well liked throughout the world (perhaps with one exception).

  151. Truth says:


    If it’s made on the mainland of Scotland then by definition it is made in Britain (the mainland of the present UK).

    Therefore if Scotland is independent or not, it will still be an accurate statement to say made in Britain.

    It is not our fault if most people wrongly believe Britain refers to the UK.

    I won’t lie and say I always knew the distinction, but ever since I have known, I have used Britain only to refer to the mainland UK.

  152. tb says:

    Mary Bruce says:
    26 June, 2014 at 5:25 pm

    There was a discussion of the boycott produce thing on twitter the other day and someone posted about how everyone still drinks Vodka after what Russia did in Ukraine, no one cares about boycotting it.

    I’m not having a go or anything.

    But … When you realise the extent of the lies, disinformation and emotional manipulation by the mainstream media, on the subject of Scotland’s Independence, why would anyone then believe what they say on international/foreign affairs and not examine it as closely as the BBCs latest preposterous pro-union scare story or Darling’s latest nonsense. You skate over the situation in Ukraine too blithely, and your twitter buddy has the whole thing back to front: Russia is the wronged party, the illegal ‘government’ of Ukraine very much the villain, said Twitterer proposing siding with a oligarch-run Ukranian regime which seized power with billions of dollars US backing, interference and bribes, mercenaries, assassins and the most extreme far-right, responsible for killing around 290 people in the Odessa Trades Union building and several more hundred killed so far in in ongoing seige of civilians with no water or power -with artillery and aerial bombing of south and eastern Ukranian towns and villages by the Ukranian miltary and fascist death squads.

    It is the same dysfunctional, deplorable media that has spun this web of lies over Ukraine, and which get echoed and amplified unwittingly.

    For an alternative take on Russia-US relations which in Ukraine have become a ‘hot’ war despite Russia’s de-escalation and almost zen-like restraint see:

    Likewise the ‘scary’ ISIS running around Syria and Iraq, are not what we are told, they are western/GCC mercenary proxies. There is hardly any Sunni Arab or Kurdish co-operation with them.

    Heavy-going but this is by far the best summation that exposes the MSMs, ISIS deceptions, with the BBC in the vanguard of the spin.

  153. Macsenex says:

    At Helensburgh tonight A Carmichael refused to say what his preference would be between an independent Scotland in the EU or Scotland in the UK out of the EU

  154. Michael McCabe says:

    @Neil That’s Nice

  155. Rock says:


    “If it’s made on the mainland of Scotland then by definition it is made in Britain (the mainland of the present UK).

    Therefore if Scotland is independent or not, it will still be an accurate statement to say made in Britain.”

    No, it most certainly will not be an accurate statement. It will be a dishonest and deliberately misleading statement to give the impression that it was made in rUK.

    Labels are based on political definitions, not geographic descriptions.

    ‘Britain’ whether mainland or not, is used as a political term, unless you are specifically discussing geography.

    Scotland after independence will not be part of that ‘Britain’.

  156. Onwards says:

    From Wikipedia:

    Britain usually refers to either:

    – United Kingdom, a sovereign state in north-west Europe.

    – Great Britain, an island situated off the north-western coast of continental Europe.

    So either is correct, and Scottish OR British labelling can be used accurately after independence.

    When it comes to food labels, the area in which ‘British’ labelling is most frequently seen, then I would say that the geographical description is what consumers are most likely looking for.

    The fact that food is ‘local’ and fresh, and hasn’t been shipped half way across the world.
    Not the political jurisdiction.

  157. Calgacus says:

    Politically speaking this part of the Island of Britain has been known as British for a thousand years more than the Romanitas of the south. That doesn’t include the Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions. We have far more right to call ourselves and our produce British than any polity based in London

  158. R whittington says:

    Reading this thread it seems that even ‘wingers’ in their hearts still want to remain British!!

  159. Black Douglas says:

    That’s becuase we will be, Scotland is part of the British Isles independent or not!

    Your’re not the sharpest tool in the box are you R whittington. 😳

  160. Tom Platt says:

    @Margaret Fitzpatrick (aka Wee Willie Winkie)

    I had a fine day out…it is not often that I am in Edinburgh these days. I travelled most of the way by coach using my travel pass. I put the money that I would have been spending on transport into buying a tee shirt and a bag of badges for the East Renfrewshire event in Neilston on Saturday and the BBC event on Sunday at PQ. . Newsnet Scotland had a good piece about it..with a slightly diferent photo:-

    English Scots for “Yes”
    English Scots join growing Yes movement

    Group co-founder of English Scots for Yes Angel Brammer, a graphics designer who was born in Portsmouth but raised in Scotland, said: “We really hope we can make the difference and reassure as many English and English Scots people here as possible that it doesn’t matter where you were born, it’s about Scotland’s future, and what kind of Scotland we leave to our children.”

    Co-founder Math Campbell-Sturgess, who was born and raised near Cambridge and is now a Greenock SNP councillor said: ‘This referendum is not about where you were born, but about the best way to make Scotland’s vast wealth and resources work better for all who live and work in Scotland and contribute to Scottish society.

    I was talking to some tourists from Northumberland afterwards. One was quite supportive. The other less so. They bought me a pint of McEwans 70/- …£3.20 was not a bad price… I couldn’t buy one back because they were rushing for their bus. I made them honorary members and gave them a badge each on condition that they wore it.

    After we parted I did a rece for a later day trip with SWMBO and the grand-daughter

    All the best

  161. Cath says:

    Reading this thread it seems that even ‘wingers’ in their hearts still want to remain British!!

    And? Is this supposed to be be a dig? Why should it be considered a “weak point” if some of us, while wanting Scotland to control its own affairs, also retain a love of the British Isles and other places and people within it? The British Isles is a geographical area and a pretty decent place to live.

    That doesn’t mean having to believe all its constituent parts and nations must be run by Westminster.

  162. Tom Platt says:

    In the discussion that “English for “Yes”” had in the cafe we came to the interim conclusion that “foreigner” is really an English word.

    None of us had a great knowledge of Gaelic nor could we think of a word in Lallans Scots or even the Glascae Patter that carried the same negative connotation that we are warned about if we vote “Yes” and become as much foreigners as the Irish …to 3he “No” campaign anyway. My sister and the rest of my English family say that they will still regard me as one of them.


  163. R whittington says:

    Not a dig at all. Merely a statement of opinion. My point is that many of you seem to want it both ways. Seperation but status quo. I think a lot of you have some thinking to do before September!!

  164. Black Douglas says:

    You don’t have a point. 😕 Thats the point 😉

    No more feeding the 👿

  165. Cath says:

    ” I think a lot of you have some thinking to do before September!!”

    Some of us have been thinking hard about it for a few years now, and are still thinking. You should try it sometime.

  166. Lorraine says:

    The thing with whole, ‘there will have to be borders’ bit is that it’s come entirely from the arrogance of UK politicians.

    This bizarre idea that the Britain is the best country in the world, and everyone admires us and everyone wants to come here – also because, we’re too kind to them and just give too much! Poor, put upon, Britain. Delusions of some sort of admired and benevolent nation.

    If you watched the Nigel Farage documentary when he went to Bulgaria, he went around the country, and asked loads of people if they were interested in coming to Britain, and they just didn’t care. I think one guy said he might consider it. And yet, at the end he waffled on about not believing everyone he’d spoken to, because of course they want to come to us, we’re the best country in the world. He seemed to actually believe what he was saying too.

    When they say Britain in this context, they really mean England (because as we know, Scotland, Wales, NI are all the poor relations) – hence, if we have a different immigration policy, they’ll need borders, because, of course no-one would want to move to poor and useless Scotland, they’d only be using us to get to the most admired country in the world.

    So, for No campaigners up here, it’s either your proposition, or they agree with the UK politician view.

    Either way, I’m not sure how many of them have actually thought through any reasoning behind it, before they decided to agree with it.

  167. Tom Platt says:

    The English Scots for “Yes” launch was well linked to from The Scotsman web site:-



  168. Onwards says:

    @R whittington says:

    My point is that many of you seem to want it both ways. Seperation but status quo. I think a lot of you have some thinking to do before September!!

    What is so hard to understand?

    We keep the best parts of being British – the social and business connections, and lose the worst part – the unequal political union of the UK.

    Instead we get a sovereign Scottish government.. improved democracy and far more powers than we have now.

    That really is the best of both worlds.

  169. Robert Gilchrist says:

    Good one Cath. Sort of ties in a bit with how Unionists as a whole will have to take a long, hard look at what the term actually means for them in the 21st C, whichever way the dice falls in Scotland.

  170. Rock says:


    “So either is correct, and Scottish OR British labelling can be used accurately after independence.

    When it comes to food labels, the area in which ‘British’ labelling is most frequently seen, then I would say that the geographical description is what consumers are most likely looking for.

    The fact that food is ‘local’ and fresh, and hasn’t been shipped half way across the world.
    Not the political jurisdiction.”

    Have you ever come across any Wine which is a ‘Produce of Iberia’?

    Or anything ‘Made in Scandinavia’?

    Or anything ‘Made in Australasia’?

    Or anything produced in the Republic of Ireland labeled as ‘Made in the British Isles’?

    Or any example where a geographical description has been used for ‘Made in —-‘?

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