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Too gutless to even lie

Posted on May 24, 2014 by

While we admit that it probably doesn’t look like it (because we focus on the failures), this site’s default position with the media is to assume good faith. With the exception of newspapers that have explicitly declared themselves for the Union – the Daily Mail, Express etc – we strain every possible sinew to put errors down to incompetence, laziness or lack of investigative resources rather than malicious attempts to mislead.

We’ve even been known on quite a few occasions to publicly chide overly-paranoid Yes supporters on social media for seeing conspiracies everywhere.

bnpdemo

But then sometimes we read things like today’s leader column in the Daily Record on the subject of immigration and we wonder whether they might be right after all.

The same story appears in almost every paper bought on Scottish news-stands (plus the Independent), and is based on the imminent release of another UK government “Scotland Analysis” propaganda report. But the Record’s piece is an especially good example of how you can lie to people with exclusively true statements, simply by selectively removing context to create a false impression.

Let’s see how it works.

—————————————————————————————————————

“It is a simple fact that an independent Scotland would have to open the door to more immigrants to survive financially.

Our national demographics mean that the ratio between working people and pensioners is in danger of becoming unsustainable.

To afford the state pension as a separate country, we would have to attract thousands of foreigners to the country every year in order for them to work and pay taxes.”

LIE BY OMISSION. Scotland’s demographics mean that it’ll need more immigrants to cover the cost of looking after its old people whether it’s independent or not.

Indeed, the same situation applies to the UK as a whole, and to most of the rest of the civilised world. Advances in medicine mean that people live longer, costing the state more money in their old age. The only ways to make up the shortfall are either to (1) cut spending, (2) increase tax rates, (3) raise the pension age or (4) grow the population, so that there are more people to pay taxes and provide the money.

The UK has decided to primarily tackle the problem by doing (1) and (3). The best way to achieve (4) is to encourage immigration, because statistics comprehensively prove that immigrants claim fewer benefits and are more likely to be in work – plus a proportion of them tend to return to their country of origin before they get old, meaning they contribute more while taking less out.

—————————————————————————————————————

“This is acknowledged by Alex Salmond and the SNP, who have made plans for a more relaxed immigration system if there is a Yes vote on September 18.

They have been less clear about how many immigrants would be required and what impact the increase in the population would have on schools and hospitals.”

LIE BY IMPLICATION. They’ve been “less clear” only in so far as nobody can possibly know the exact numbers, because it isn’t the future yet. We don’t know how many people will be born, how many people will die, how many will move away or what the bigger financial picture will be.

Will North Sea oil revenues rise or fall? Will Scotland manage to successfully harness its vast renewables bounty? Will we save the £1 billion-plus a year that would be an immediate independence dividend? Will we have to contribute unbudgeted billions to more foreign wars or expensive infrastructure for the benefit of England?

What we do know is that according to independent calculations, Scotland would be starting off from a stronger financial position than the UK would.

—————————————————————————————————————

There are also concerns that a radically different immigration system in Scotland compared with the rest of the UK would make it necessary to erect border posts between the two countries.”

LIE BY IRRATIONALITY. Oh God, not “barbed wire and machine guns at Carlisle” again. But even leaving that madness aside, why would immigrants – actively sought and welcomed in Scotland – want to flood into England, where they faced only hatred and media vilification, in the first place?

—————————————————————————————————————

The UK Treasury analysis, to be published next week, is a useful contribution to the independence debate.”

The definition of “useful”, of course, is a somewhat fluid and subjective one.

“It makes clear the scale of increased immigration that would be required.

Civil servants have calculated the Nationalist plans would require 24,000 new immigrants every year – meaning an increase in the population that would add up to the size of Edinburgh after two decades.”

LIE BY SPURIOUS MULTIPLICATION. Why “after two decades”? Nothing particularly significant happens in 2034. There’s no rationale for adding up 20 years of figures other than to make the numbers sound bigger. Although at least it’s an improvement on the weirdly-arbitrary 37-year period Labour used a few weeks ago.

—————————————————————————————————————

“Scotland has always been welcoming to immigrants from all over the world and celebrates the contribution they make here.

And the SNP should be praised for openly promoting a relaxed immigration system at a time when other mainstream political parties across the UK are afraid to do so.

The success of Nigel Farage’s UKIP in the English local elections yesterday shows that immigration is set to remain a controversial issue whatever the result of the referendum.

LIE BY OMISSION. The Record forgets to mention that that relaxed, welcoming immigration system can only actually be implemented with independence, of course. Otherwise Scotland will be governed by the anti-immigrant agenda the Record correctly observes in the rest of the UK, driven by all the major parties as well as UKIP, which will choke off the supply of workers we need to support our population.

Saying “We commend Policy X”, while opposing the only possible means of bringing it about and knowingly advocating a political choice which will have the precisely opposite effect, is investment-grade hypocrisy.

—————————————————————————————————————

Scots will have to decide if the level of immigration required in an independent Scotland is something they want to see.”

The payoff of the column is a sentence of nasty weasel words, written in the full knowledge that Scots appear to be almost as susceptible as anyone else to the constant bombardment of anti-immigration sentiment in the UK media – Scotland having almost no indigenous press.

(The Daily Record itself is of course owned by Trinity Mirror in England and much of its content is supplied directly from the Mirror’s offices in London.)

And crucially and cynically, the Record also leaves out are two extremely key facts: that the level of immigration required in an independent Scotland is (a) basically no different to that required if Scotland stays in the UK, and (b) only fractionally higher than the level of immigration we have now.

That’s because the “Scotland Analysis” paper tells a lie that’s almost breathtaking in its audacity, and we have to look elsewhere to uncover it.

—————————————————————————————————————

“Using Office for National Statistics data, the Treasury has calculated that Scotland would have to treble its rate of net annual migration under independence to match UK demographics.

As part of the UK, net annual migration to Scotland of 7,000 is assumed but this would have to increase to 24,000 under independence to achieve the same dependency ratio, it said.”

We’ve added the emphasis in that second paragraph. We have absolutely no idea where that “assumption” comes from, but it seems to be an absolute fantasy by any conceivable calculation. Net UK migration in 2013 was 212,000. If Scotland’s share of that was allocated on a population-share basis at 8.4% it wouldn’t be 7000, but just shy of 18,000.

We don’t even need to do it in such an arbitrary manner, however, as we actually know the figures for Scotland specifically. And as the STV article goes on to note, that’s almost exactly the current situation:

“General Register Office for Scotland figures show that between 2003/04 and 2010/11, Scotland saw net annual migration gains of at least 18,600 per year.”

Even that “at least” disguises an understatement. When we calculated the figures from those GRO stats last month, we found that the average of the last available 10-year period was 22,330 a year.

That will almost certainly increase when the 2012-13 figures come in, because the very low 2002-03 total of 5,643 will fall off the end and be replaced by a higher number. Which means that the 24,000 net annual migration required to keep Scotland solvent is basically already being achieved, and needs almost no increase whatsoever.

Which means that this line from the “Scotland Analysis” report:

“To get the demographics simply to match the UK, Scotland would have to go up to the ‘high migration scenario’, which is 24,000 people a year net, so that’s more than tripling in migration relative to Scotland within the UK.”

…is, not to put too fine a point on it, an unambiguous, barefaced, scaremongering lie.

—————————————————————————————————————

The Record leader uses omission, insinuation and innuendo to try to frighten Scots with the prospect of an unspecified but massive increase in immigration – preparing the ground, we have little doubt, to drop the bomb of the UK government’s completely false figures when the report is published on Wednesday.

(We’re curious to find out whether and how the report will justify the “7000” stat. Our best guess is that it’s based on the coalition government’s completely unachievable pledge to reduce net immigration to below 100,000 by 2015 – something that’s totally and fundamentally impossible under EU freedom-of-movement laws.)

The paper, though, covers itself by not actually saying anything factually untrue. And next week it’ll be able to hide behind saying “the UK government claims” and plead innocence, saying it’s just reporting what was said by others. But it’s being every bit as dishonest as the Treasury is, only without the courage to tell its lies openly.

Since we DON’T like to sneakily hint at things we don’t want to come out and say up front, let’s be clear – we don’t think the Daily Record is racist. But it’s so desperate to retain the Union gravy-train for Labour that it’s prepared to hold its nose and plumb almost any depths to peddle the UK government’s bigot-pandering sewage.

(We were entirely unsurprised to see Tory MSP Alex Johnstone feature in the story.)

And doing the Tories’ and UKIP’s dirty, rotten work for them is a sorry state of affairs for a once-proud Scottish newspaper of the left to have sunk to.

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    1. 24 05 14 13:13

      Too gutless to even lie | Scottish Independence News

    138 to “Too gutless to even lie”

    1. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Too gutless even to lie.

      /grammar nazi

    2. fairiefromtheearth says:

      oops sorry should have read the next line under the photo before posting my sincere appoliges Rev.

    3. Murray McCallum says:

      Great article Rev Stu.

      I am becoming increasingly annoyed at what seems to be a general acceptance that immigration must be a negative thing. As exposed in your analysis, many of the soundbites coming from the anti-foreigner organisations are misleading and often untrue.

      Your article brings a sense of proportion to the debate.

      From what I heard on the radio yesterday, it’s depressingly predictable to hear OneNation Labour start to go down the UKIP route. It’s the usual pattern of abandoning basic principles to grub for votes.

    4. Camz says:

      I’m amazed that anyone bothers to read hard copy newspapers any more. If I can’t get my news for free on-line, I don’t read it.

      Free news means that the news can’t be bought, ergo, it can’t be corrupted as easily (that’s not to say it can’t be corrupted, but it’s harder to buy someone, when they can afford to print the truth).

    5. Ken MacColl says:

      They lie to you. They have done so for years

      “And poor old Goebells had no balls at all!”

      The Daily Wrecker has always peddled a political line that suggests it was written furth of Scotland.
      Probably explains why it seems to always end up back to front -sports pages uppermost -in the supermarket display shelves.

    6. heedtracker says:

      They get worse by the day. Here in Aberdeen, Press and Journal daily vote no banner headline frightener over two pages is “Scotland has already spent all its oil revenues, so vote No.” Its a giant headline but P&J front page is usually very local news with their hard core vote NO pressure in the middle.

      This is probably what Press and Journal mocking liars call strategic layout, hook suckers with local stuff and bam!

    7. Camz says:

      @Murray

      “I am becoming increasingly annoyed at what seems to be a general acceptance that immigration must be a negative thing.”

      Agreed, but may I also add that, I am becoming increasingly annoyed at what seems to be a general acceptance that immigration must be a [[[positive]]] thing.

      It’s neither. What Scotland need to do is attract the right types of immigration (i.e. more people with a positive effect, and less people with a negative effect). How we achieve that is anyone’s guess, but we don’t achieve it with open or closed door policies.

    8. Grouse Beater says:

      It’s a sickness spreading everywhere, born out of the USA’s corrupt financial system that undermined economies.

    9. RogueCoder says:

      The whole immigration thing is a lie. The elite in this country – as elsewhere in the developed world – have successfully pedalled the lie that immigrants and benefit cheats are stealing our jobs and sapping our state resources.

      Nothing could be further from the truth – we’re in the middle of the greatest robbery in history, and the robbers are using the media to point a hysterical accusatory finger at the poor.

      Whom are the robbers? Big Finance.

      Seriously, take a look at the problems society faces, whether it’s rising energy bills, affordable housing, public transport, pensions, the NHS – you name it; dig deep enough, you will find Big Finance behind all of them.

    10. Les Wilson says:

      I hope the go the same way as The “Scotsman”, designated for history. With the people who run the rag, are we surprised. Stu is especially good at debunking this stuff, and that counts big time.

      Getting it ever further read is the problem we face, if Wings participants helped to do that, by way of mouth, and all avenues of the web, it would improve the facts getting out there.

    11. Jeremy says:

      It is depressing to see all the good lefty newspapers switch to fear-mongering propagandist-mode. Some of the papers I actually used to enjoy reading have put me off for good.

    12. All of these figures are based on the crap, low wage economy we have at the moment. If we can create better jobs, less money will go out in benefits and more come in from taxation, hopefully retaining more talented people who were born here. If we get it right the vast majority of immigrants will come from the rUK as they escape the neoliberal wasteland.

      The tone of the immigration debate achieves only one thing, diverts public attention away from those who are really to blame and sadly far too many are falling for it.

    13. Murray McCallum says:

      Camz

      Mass EU immigration would surely only occur if Scotland’s economy were successful enough (relative to rest of EU) to attract nationals outwith its borders. EU migrants surely follow jobs.

      I want Scotland to be successful and a place where people want to come and work. One way to stop immigrants is to have a basket case economy.

    14. heedtracker says:

      BetterTogether by omission. Why nothing about Farage/UKIP triumph online from our vote no BBC in Scotland? Its like England doesn’t even exist, with staggering irony even from these weirdos.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/

    15. Martin says:

      Sorry, I’m also going to be a grammar Nazi.

      (The Daily Record itself is of course owned by Trinity Mirror in England and much of its content is supplied directLY from the Mirror’s offices in London).

      It’s an adverb, don’t you know…

      Direct line lost any hope of my future custom with “come direct to direct line.” I’m saving you a similar fate.

    16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Agreed, but may I also add that, I am becoming increasingly annoyed at what seems to be a general acceptance that immigration must be a [positive] thing. It’s neither.”

      Actually, all else being equal, it IS an iherently positive thing. If you swim exclusively in your own gene pool, you’ll end up with a nation of unhealthy inbred mutants. Like most things, it’s only if it’s allowed to run completely out of control with no attention paid to specific situations (eg dumping immigrants en masse in ghettos rather than integrating them properly) that it risks having negative consequences.

    17. YESGUY says:

      I read this earlier Stu and saw right through it but lets be fair on the Record . No one buys it for the news. Its the fitba pages in the back or center that i see people reading. Some like the crossword and others their stars.

      Ive never had a n argument with anyone who quotes the record unless its fitba.

      Most tell me its full of adverts and “something to pass the time whilst they eat their peece .”

      We dont have that many immigrants and the ones we do have are hardworking folk who want to make a life here for themselves and family.

      I sat in the pub last week chatting about the UKIP and the reaction was of disgust. And then to the surprise of a few it was noticed that one was dutch , came over with parents as a child , two where from eastern Europe ,came here as kids and the last one an Italian who came over as a kid. No one looked at them as immigrants but we where told firmly thats exactly what they where. Although they pointed out Scotland was their home and Scots they are.

      Point is we all are a bit of a mix here and the sh*te they write only matters to the naive . Most have irish or English blood in them and a wee check further would shut them up for good.

      Our Asian folk run the shops and fast food places out here and are open when every one else is closed. An Italian cuts our hair and the everyone of them is part of our community.

      Down south these people are scared to get too close to the locals as they are blamed for everything (oh how we have forgotten the banks and westminster for the crash)And moved here to Scotland where the locals made them welcome. Encouraged to join in and are proud to call Scotland their home.

      Its a big deal down south but hardly worth the ink up here and thats another reason to vote YES and leave the Union .

    18. Les Wilson says:

      If you want to understand all this propaganda you need to read all of this
      http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html

      Here is a pertinent point, we can all understand from what he says.

      ” 6. To be perceived, propaganda must evoke the interest of an audience and must be transmitted through an attention-getting communications medium.”

      This is the Media we have and what it is doing, but please read all his points, you will recognise pretty well all of it. Could even be their blueprint to follow.

    19. Jim Thomson says:

      As part of the net immigration, I wonder how many of the 733,000 Scots currently in E&W will return.

      Data here: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/quick-statistics-for-england-and-wales-on-national-identity–passports-held-and-country-of-birth/rft—-qs213ew.xls

    20. Jim Thomson says:

      Using the DR’s mathematically elegant model, I suppose that means it will take about 30 years to regain our fellow countrymen/foreigners.

    21. Clootie says:

      I really don’t want to comment on this drift to appease right wing bigots. The press and politicians could not achieve this without a willing public who are apparently unwilling to do even basic research for themselves

      … beam me up!

    22. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry I’m O/T so early Stu but thought folks would like to know that Mark Coburn who is cycling from Rome to Home http://tinyurl.com/lbu5zol has finally arrived back home in Scotland. He crossed the border at Gretna about 12:00 p.m. today. There to greet him were around 20 YES supporters. He is continuing on to Dumfries today before finishing his trip tomorrow. 🙂

      This guy is a real Scottish hero. The week before he started his trip he broke a bone in his elbow and cracked 4 ribs. Despite these injuries he has cycled from Rome and crossed the last border today. 😛

      Hopefully I’ll have some photos to put up later. 😉

    23. Brian Powell says:

      It is amazing to me how many people want to live in a settled, law abiding, decent society but have no interest in promoting one.

      I mean the editors and writers in the newspapers.

      With this kind of article they come across as the craven, runt remains of human beings.

    24. Angus McLellan says:

      It’s almost like the press haven’t twigged that net migration figures are calculated by subtracting people leaving Scotland from people arriving in Scotland. In round numbers, 60,000 people leave Scotland each year. Two-thirds of them moved to other parts of the UK (that’ll be mostly London) and one-third left these islands altogether.
      The easiest way to increase net migration would be to persuade some of these people to stay in Scotland. They might be people who were born here, but they could just as easily be people who’ve come to study here.
      Fortunately, as a look at the figures will show, a lot more people are persuaded to remain in Scotland than was once the case. So it’s a matter of swimming with the tide rather than against it. That wouldn’t have been the case if we were having this debate fifty years ago.
      Good news? That’ll never do!

    25. Carol Douglas says:

      And of course there’s the fact that the third generation of the Scottish diaspora will qualify for Scottish citizenship post Indy so they could also be included in the ‘immigrant’ figures.

    26. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Angus McLellan

      And bring back some of the Scots who have left?

    27. msean says:

      I always wondered what it would be like if Scotland didn’t send folk to England every year because of economic mismanagement.Aren’t these folk immigrants,even if internal to the uk?

      o/t Was that Mr Osbourne I saw on telly scaremongering English voters re voting for ukip during the UK General Election?

    28. I can honestly say that after 3 months of canvassing,not one person(yes,no,or undecided)has ever mentioned they are concerned by immigration.

      I hope when Douglas Alexander comes out with this “oh,isant immigration scarey?” crap on wednesday, that someone is at least able to ask him “why?”

    29. Democracy Reborn says:

      Well Stu, I’d suggest the article as a whole is racist.

      Racism encompasses amongst other things antagonism, intolerance or prejudice against other races.

      Why should Scots have to “decide if the level of immigration required in an independent Scotland is something they want to see”? If these immigrants are not a ‘problem’, why ask the question? Indeed, why the need for the whole article?

      The article is disgusting & one that Enoch Powell would be quite happy with. The Record is nothing more than a grovelling, subservient Labour rag. The party who spout phoney ‘internationalism’ in the one breath &, in the next, rail against the dangers of foreigners descending on our shores.

      What’s been revealing though during this campaign is just how British nationalist the UK parties & their MSM mouthpieces actually are.

    30. Angus McLellan says:

      @BtP: Indeed. Some people are more or less forced to leave. I know of someone who has left for Ireland simply because his wife, a foreigner, was endlessly messed about by the idiots from the UKBA and the Home Office. Lucky for Ireland. But for Scotland? Not so much

    31. Thepnr says:

      Speaking of Danny Alexander and borders, he’s quoted in an article today of saying:

      Speaking at the Road Haulage Association (RHA) annual lunch, Alexander said: “You probably wouldn’t have to drive through international check points every time you entered an independent Scotland, but even without a barrier, the prospect of a trade barrier, or a currency barrier, could have a devastating and unneeded effect on your industry.

      So No Borders then says Minister.

    32. msean says:

      I always wondered what this ‘internationalism’ is about.I mean,I understand,but did anyone ask the ‘foreigners’ if,although they want to come here,do they want to abolish their own nations at the same time?

      I’m guessing that they don’t.

    33. handclapping says:

      My, my, its all Westminster’s fault. They are totally in charge and if you think there is too much immigration it is Westminster’s fault. If you are clued up and think there is too little immigration to Scotland, its Westminster’s fault.

      Westminster is full of people who can avoid immigrants by keeping them the other side of their moat / duck pond and, so, are totally unresponsive to what even the people of England think. That, and not Garage’s sunny personality, is what the vote was about, telling the voter deaf MPs to pay attention to what we are trying to say, which is that we despise you.

    34. handclapping says:

      @BtP

      You Pandas are only rented and when time’s up you’ll be called back home

    35. Dcanmore says:

      Scotland is under-populated by design. Its greatest export has always been its people, the managed decline of Scotland forces young folk to leave their country and head south to get a job they’ve studied for. Scotlnd should have a population between six to eight million and include a rate of unemployment less than two per cent through re-industrialisation, infratructure investment combined with retaining research and development then a new Scotland would truly be a Switzerland of the north.

    36. Richard Lucas says:

      It seems that the ‘No’ campaign’s lasting leasy will be distrust. They use every available means to lie to us – radio, TV, newspapers, cinema adverts, bogus Astroturf campaigns, the list goes ever on and on. And it’s all to no avail, because even the dogs in the street know that thay are at it. It’s a horrible cynical process, and surely must be utterly counter-productive.

    37. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      handclapping

      Say that to me, furry face to face, at the Counting House next Friday Night!

      I’m back looking for a wee cave.

    38. Matt Seattle says:

      “Dcanmore says:
      24 May, 2014 at 2:14 pm
      Scotland is under-populated by design. Its greatest export has always been its people, the managed decline of Scotland forces young folk to leave their country”

      A stand-out comment among many good comments.

      And to remind us, these islands have only been repopulated since the last ice age. We’re ALL immigrants. And there are not *really* any nations. A nation is a story we tell ourselves. Let’s choose a better story to tell, one that we write ourselves.

    39. Grouse Beater says:

      Hanclapping
      My, my, its all Westminster’s fault.

      There’s a vast difference between a country wanting to restrict immigration to those with jobs to come to, and a nation that detests and fears foreigners.

      A worrying proportion of English are in the latter class.

    40. joe kane says:

      Who’d have guessed that Labour would now start triangulating with UKIP given Thurday’s election results?
      They’re nothing if not unoriginal, derivative and morally bankrupt.

    41. Peter says:

      The lie is that Scotland needs any immigrants at all.
      Where are these 500,000 to live?
      Where will they get their food?
      Where will they work?
      Where will their water come from?
      What about their waste?
      What about the increased air pollution?

      And who will pay their pensions? More immigrants?

      There was a post-War baby bulge that has worked it’s way through the population. Any government worth the name would have put in place a plan to cope until they had died off and we had a lower and better balanced population.

      Being in favour of mass immigration and endless human population growth just because you don’t like the people arguing against it is one of the most pathetic, disgusting and destructive examples of Political Correctness.

      Fewer people. More bio-diversity. Stop destroying the planet for human greed.

    42. Lesley-Anne says:

      As promised here’s some photos of Mark at the border today. (hope link works 😉 )

      http://tinyurl.com/qzqgvuf

    43. Charles Kearney says:

      Since Hillsbuourgh, Liverpool has refused to buy The Sun because of its bias and lies about their People.

      This slavish following of Tory Government Propaganda by a ‘Labour’ Rag, will achieve the same result for the Record! The fear and desperation ooze from every sentence.

      Personally, I cannot remember the last time any of these, London Owned Newspapers has darkened my Door, nor will they until we establish our Own Press in an Independent Scotland!

    44. Grouse Beater says:

      Peter says:
      Fewer people.

      But not including you?

    45. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Peter

      What are you talking about?

      and

      Where do you live

    46. TJenny says:

      Grouse Beater – do you think the sleeping dug(gie) has awoken?

    47. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Lesley-Anne

      How do you know Jim Swan?

    48. Vronsky says:

      Nobody reads the story but large numbers see the front page headlne at the supermarket. It’s made me think that maybe Wings should produce big red stickers with’LIE’ on them and the Wings url. Would take a minute to riffle through the offending papers on the nes stand applying the health warning.

    49. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Lesley anne

      Sorry it was a recommendation from Google. They asked me if I knew my ex also, bugger!

      Anyways, that baby of yours is an immigrant and is stealing our jobs.

    50. Caroline Corfield says:

      Migration is natural – it’s a basic evolutionary survival technique. It’s countries that are essentially unnatural. People ebb and flow across the planet, for the good of the gene pool and the survival of the species. Some people like to stay put some people are happy to move.

      And it’s as big a fallacy to suggest the world is over populated just now as the idea that migration and thus immigrants are inherently bad. What is unsustainable is the lifestyle of a significant minority on the planet. We don’t need to go back to subsistence farming nor yet rely on GM we just need to stop aspiring to the neo-liberal dream which sees us as ‘consumers’ in much the same way as a beef farmer sees his cows eating grass.

    51. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Lesley-Anne

      You coming through to the Counting House next Friday night?

    52. Thepnr says:

      @Peter
      “The lie is that Scotland needs any immigrants at all.”
      So! Westminster caught out lying in their published propaganda AGAIN.

    53. Auld Rock says:

      I would draw everyone’s attention to Ireland when their economy was flourishing and to the huge numbers of young Irish men and women who had previously moved overseas to find work commensurate with their qualifications and then returned home when jobs were available. I personally know of 3 young Scots working in the SE who would come home tomorrow if suitable jobs were to become available. This is the challenge of INDEPENDENCE and the return of ‘The Earls’ would greatly enhance the Scottish pension pool.

      Auld Rock

    54. andrew>reid says:

      In terms of net migration, we also need to retain more of our young people through reduced emigration. In relation to immigration, we will need extra immigrants to increase our tax base to pay for public services and the NHS, and so that Scotland does not become the subsidy junkie it is currently inaccurately abused as being.Do Daily Record readers want to see public service cuts, or raised taxes, or to see public services reduced to become selective, e.g. loss of free personal care? Also, regardless of independence, we will need immigrants to increase her health and care workforce. Otherwise, who is going to provide health and care services to older people and others – our current population is just not big enough to do that. Out with all of this contest, the daily record is simply putting out UKIP pandering propaganda, and supporting southern politicians from our real needs. We need a more flexible immigration policy, and will not get it within the UK.

    55. Grouse Beater says:

      T – Jenny
      Grouse Beater – do you think the sleeping dug(gie) has awoken?

      When a contribution is so glaringly off-beam, twisted worse than a cork screw, grossly extreme, and accusatory, there’s no other conclusion to make other than it’s posted by a prat keen to annoy.

    56. bunter says:

      We should not buy these vile rags and encourage others to do the same.

      Sunday Herald excepted of course.

    57. TJenny says:

      Grouse Beater – or a unionist – they all seem to have the twisted logic gene. 🙂

    58. Alex McArthur says:

      TBH if it was an extra 24,000 a year on top of current levels, not sure I’d be bothered. When you consider we’re nearly 95 percent Scots currently and I already think I’ve gone through most of the available men. More the merrier!

    59. heedtracker says:

      @ Alex McArthur, “When you consider we’re nearly 95 percent Scots currently and I already think I’ve gone through most of the available men”

      Now stop that defeatist talk right the noo!:D

    60. john mclean says:

      off topic but derek batemans blog says account suspended when i try to get on to it,does anybody know anything about it?

    61. Murray McCallum says:

      O/T – a perspective on UKIP’s relative “success” and a prediction for GE 2015 at

      http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-farage-westminster/18277

      Minority Tory government or coalition. I guess there are many different estimates for this.

    62. Clootie says:

      @Caroline

      “…neo-liberal dream which sees us as ‘consumers’ in much the same way as a beef farmer sees his cows eating grass.”

      I like that line 😀

    63. scottish_skier says:

      So, let me see, the Daily Record is labelling people from the rUK as ‘foreigners’.

      Who’s anti-English now then?

    64. Democracy Reborn says:

      Murray McCallum@ 3.20pm

      Re Channel 4 GE 2015 predictions : Tory minority or coalition govt

      So it’s Cameron, Osborne & austerity right through to 2020. This should be hammered home again & again to Labour voters in Scotland.

      Labour for Independence take note.

    65. cynicalHighlander says:

      @john mclean

      Derek admits to not being techie minded so error messages can and do happen with his blog.

    66. Westie7 says:

      Did someone mention Danny Alexander

      O/T but he has popped up saying that UK Govt will be flinging money at the GSA restoration as it an Iconic UK Building etc. Talk about using tragedy as a political football.
      Next it will be vote NO to save GSA

    67. TYRAN says:

      Release copy to media Saturday
      Media run as few work in news office that day
      Sits around weekend ready for Monday
      Run with full Monday scare

    68. Flower of Scotland says:

      You can get into Derek’s blog through Wings . His last blog was from Skye yesterday.

    69. TJenny says:

      Westie7 – will GSA not be insured anyway?

    70. Westie7 says:

      TJenny

      Yup sure will be, and ive no doubt if they run out of cash City council should be first to chip in followed by SG. By Beaker jumping in like this you can be sure it is only to get himself and westminster in as knights in shining armour

    71. cynicalHighlander says:

      Don’t forget to get a taxi at 7pm tonight, I hope he is not his usual sweary self.

      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/2994518

    72. TJenny says:

      Westie7 – even if WM do contribute some money – it’s OUR money and they’d only be giving us a wee bit more of it back.

    73. George Bowie says:

      PM Farage will be deporting all the Scots from England, won’t need to worry about demographics.

    74. Thepnr says:

      Talking of Farage, I tried a bit of evil cybernattin over on the torygraph 10 minutes ago just to wind them up. Didn’t really bite though, mores the pity.

      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100273047/ten-things-other-politicians-shouldnt-say-if-ukip-wins-tomorrow/?

    75. msean says:

      I know it’s a unique building but,if they (Westminster)have spare money for this, then there must be some available for negation of the need for foodbanks. Just saying like,some things are more important.

    76. john king says:

      o/t
      “We’ve even been known on quite a few occasions to publicly chide overly-paranoid Yes supporters on social media for seeing conspiracies everywhere.”

      well here’s another one for you,
      conspiracy theory that is ,

      Chief secretary to the treasury Danny Alexander says
      (paraphrasing)
      It doesn’t matter what it costs the UK government will pay for the restoration of the Rennie MacKintosh art school,

      Anyone else smell the stench of black arts here?

      What better way for London to suddenly look like the guys in white hats than paying for the repairs after an unexpected and unexplained fire?

    77. JLT says:

      Was out this morning with the Yes Team in Bathgate. We had a pretty good morning. During our chatting to the local shoppers, we found only a small number of people were voting ‘no’, while quite a few were either ‘Yes’ or ‘Undecided’.

      However …not once did immigration rear its head. To be honest, most folk just wanted confirmation on Sterling, the Scottish NHS and Pensions. Things such as Defence, the oil and immigration were not asked.

      One good thing that I noted. Those who did decide to speak (be it Yes or No), did say, that they found what they were being told by the media, was far too negative.

      That makes me wonder. Have the State Media and BT gone toooooo far with their negativity. So far, that folk have begun to switch on to the fact that Scotland can’t possibly be that bad after independence. Rather than just concentrate on Sterling and Europe, the media seem intent on denouncing everything. Take last night’s Reporting Scotland, Jackie Bird told us that a group of experts had said that Scotland might not be able to fund its researching. However, this was just an opinion of a small group of researchers. This was not the opinion of the Universities, or the Research facilities themselves. By attacking EVERYTHING, the Unionists may have over-reached themselves and are slowly, but sub-consciously, awakening people up to the fact that something isn’t right with what they are being told.

    78. George Bowie says:

      Hi, John McLean, Derek is on line ok, his last blog isn’t. Try derekbateman.co.uk then you can read any of his blogs.

    79. Callum says:

      O/T An Orange Parade “Apprentice Boys of Derry” of over 3000 marchers through Stirling today.

      Whilst I’ve always been a believer of the right to march – it just has a bit of a sick taste to it. i.e. Come a yes vote; what will they not be surrendering to? democracy?

      looked out for a “naw”/ukok badge on a spectator but they’ve got so many…

    80. Les Wilson says:

      JLT says:

      Hi,this issue also rose it’s head in the last Quebec referendum. After tons of the same stuff we get, people got so fed up with the negatives, they just stopped listening.

      I suspect, we are painted soo bad by the Unionists that many people are just ignoring their crap. Being positive wins arguments.

    81. Les Wilson says:

      Westie7 says:

      An opportunist political ploy, just ask yourself the last time Westminster was generous to Scotland?
      Well,maybe never before, so I guess that tells us all we need to know.

    82. Bruce Wallace says:

      John King.

      I’m suspicious about everything I see and hear at the moment, this site has learned me that, that fire has got my BS antenna on overdrive, if that makes me a nutter then a nutter I must be.

    83. colin young says:

      I’m confused, we can see bias media against indy but the many say this is not true so surely this is a conspiracy we on this site agree with ?

    84. crisiscult says:

      sorry – haven’t read all the responses so apologies if someone mentioned this. The Daily Record have stated they oppose independence, so I think they and the Sunday Herald are both openly setting out their position.

    85. Kenny says:

      The saddest thing I’ve heard this week was a friend from Poland who’s been here for a few years and has just got engaged to someone she met here saying that she felt wrong voting here because it wasn’t her country. Half the parties in the ballot want rid of her and she’s somehow been encouraged to feel that she has no right to de ide how the country she lives in is governed. How could that have happened? Thankfully several friends reassured her and all seemed to be Yes supporters, but how sad is it that anyone should feel such a second class citizen?

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      Had a very odd chat today, with an Asian Scot of Bangladeshi heritage. He is not interested in the debate because it is all too negative. I think he will be voting no though, as he sat down with NS, the other day, and she wasn’t able to answer a single question. He has also seen the spreadsheets and knows the sums don’t add up. So it looks like we are too poor after all. Imagine being too stupid to realise that.

      I did enjoy leaving him with the quandary, of how to support a status quo which results in an entrenchment and widening of social division. I wasn’t feeling generous, so I chucked in TRIDENT and imperial foreign wars, as well.

      All done with a friendly smile and a little mocking pity. I got the impression his co-worker is a long-time sufferer of his ‘logic’, as she was grinning ear to ear. 🙂

    87. dadsarmy says:

      rUK population growth rate 1960 to 2010: 0.47% per annum
      Scotland population growth rate 1960 to 2010: 0.038% p.a.
      Scotland growth rate required 2016 to 2036: 0.46% p.a.

      All Scotland needs is to grow at the same rate as the rUK has been for over 60 years.

    88. crisiscult says:

      oh, another thing I’d like to mention. I was talking to a couple of Omani guys who are here with their families, and are doing post grads in Glasgow. They go to the central Mosque on Fridays. They’ve reported to me that lots of the chat they are getting from locals is that they are planning to vote no. The reason? That’s not as clear. One reason given by foreign born immigrants is that they have come here to work in Britain and don’t feel it is their right to vote against the country that brought them here/allowed them to come. Another reason, less clear, seemed to be that the message that was moving in their circles was that Scottish nationalism was not cosmopolitan. My own suspicion is that this is the message being spread by Labour members in the muslim community, but I don’t have any evidence of that.

      Openly admit this is very anecdotal, but having been reading wings for almost 2 years, I don’t know if I’ve ever been aware of posters that move in the muslim community or are muslims, so maybe we need to know a bit more about the messages that are floating around.

    89. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry Bugger (the Panda) I won’t be able to make it, I live down in Dumfries and Galloway hence the photos, I thought, of Mark Coburn in Gretna today.

      Anyways, that baby of yours is an immigrant and is stealing our jobs.

      I’m assuming your talking about Cochise there BtP. 😉

      He is doing a sterling job advertising the best option for people on 18th September, I think. 🙂

    90. TJenny says:

      Talking of religion – why is it that The Wee Free Church of Scotland is anti indy and content to have CoE bishops sitting in the HoL making laws for Scotland?

      I have to admit, religion, I really don’t get it. 🙁

    91. Andy smith says:

      Bruce Wallace/John King
      Something not right about fire at RMAS,especially the first reports stating that it was started by a “paint covered projector”.. What?.

    92. rab_the_doubter says:

      Really disgusted by Danny Alexander’s opportunist move RE the GSA. I’m actually hoping that he and his fellow idiots do try to hold Scotland to ransom over this – A cheap stunt like that WILL blow up in their faces.

    93. Macart says:

      When the Record is parroting the Mail, you know how badly compromised the press has become.

    94. Edward Margerum says:

      The only advantages Better Together has are: people are paranoid and people are willing to believe any lie if it is told often enough.

    95. Edward Margerum says:

      We get the same anti-immigrant crap here in America where 99% of the people are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Many of our earliest immigrants were English. Maybe that’s what’s wrong with America.

    96. Kenny says:

      TJenny – I would think it’s more or less knee-jerk unionism. The union exists in large part to protect the Protestant succession. Look at how many times the word “papist” appears in the Treaty of Union. Combine that with the Catholic Ireland’s “separation” and Protestantism becomes unionist almost by default because British unionism and nationalism exists in large part to be anti-Catholic. I rather like the idea that Scotland could retain the monarchy but do away with the anti-Catholic line of succession. Sooner or later we could diverge.

      The weird problem is Catholic voters. I know a handful of older Catholics who have a concern, punted to them by Labour for decades, that the only thing protecting us and our schools from the Orange hordes is them, and an independent Scotland would demolish the schools and lead to the return of the hatred our Irish ancestors faced in the 19th and 20th centuries. The SNP’s atrocious football legislation has knly encouraged Catholics/Celtic fans that independence will be bad for them. I don’t think it’s an overwhelming issue, but it’s one George Galloway at least wants to stir up.

    97. ronnie anderson says:

      REV. Im sick of hearing the most Famious Building in

      Britain, the most Iconic building In Britain from the Bbc

      & not mentioning Scotland.

      Lets start a C R MacIntosh RESTORATION FUND

      Give it the WINGS/YES appeal, a WORLD WIDE APPEAL,

      then sit & watch Danny Alexanders statement turn to ash

      while a Pheonix arises, funded by the PEOPLE of SCOTLAND

      & the REST OF THE WORLD.

    98. TJenny says:

      Ronnie – I’m up for that.

      Stu – can WOS start up a GSA Restoration Fund and post it on here?

    99. john king says:

      I would like to support that Ronnie, count me in.

    100. Paula Rose says:

      If I was the GSA insurer I’d be on the chief secretary’s case pronto.

    101. Paula Rose says:

      Oi you lot the building is insured – its not a run down ruin needing restoration – nor a royal palace.

    102. Paula Rose says:

      Oh and btw – the BT booklets around today do have a pre-paid thingy on the back, so don’t bin it send it back.

    103. TJenny says:

      Paula rose – I hope you’re correct, especially as GSA is a working building it must surely need to have insurance, but it would be nice to show our support.

    104. Croompenstein says:

      @Paula Rose – Got a hold of one of the booklets at my Dads(he still buys the Record) Gleefully filled in and posted back 😀

    105. Boorach says:

      Shona Robinson was interviewed on GMS today and intimated that cash would be available from the SG for restoring GSA

    106. Graeme Doig says:

      Was gonna stay in tonight after a hard day at work. Knew i could rely on Wings to highlight more infuriating bt tactics.
      I,m away out in the rain to deliver Yes papers !!

    107. Paula Rose says:

      Don’t fill the booklets in – they can re-use them!

    108. Croompenstein says:

      Sorry, but just had to fill it in, fuck them it will still cost them the postage

    109. Paula Rose says:

      Yes dear – but you will be wasting ink (where’s that smiley, winky thing?)

    110. Jim Thomson says:

      @Graeme Doig 7:25pm

      You borrowed @ronnie anderson’s keyboard 😉

    111. Brian MacLeod says:

      We may not need immigration (nothing against it). All we need is jobs for our young people and they will stop emigrating.

      100 years ago Scotland’s population was about 5 million.
      Now Scotland’s population is about 5 million.

      In those 100 years the population of England has risen by 40%.

      If the same opportunities were available in Scotland our population would be 7 million.

      Let’s fix the missing millions by making Scotland prosperous.

      Vote YES

    112. Paula Rose says:

      Um – is there a problem with sex education in our schools? Just asking like.

    113. gerry parker says:

      Good on ye Graeme, I got 300 out this morning, knees getting old though. Got another 300 bundled up ready, will probably do it Monday morning.
      Keep up the good work.

    114. Kyle Mackay says:

      Crisiscult, I’ve been chatting to a young muslim guy (he’s about 20 I think) who works in a shop I visit fairly often, on and off for the last few years. We started chatting about independence maybe 2 years ago, he was pretty unsure at first but we just chatted away about it each time I popped in and I gave my feelings on how Scotland could be if we ran our own country and did my best to debunk scare stories he’d heard.

      He looked into it more and to my delighted surprise one day when I went in he told me not only was he going to vote Yes, but he’d also joined the SNP! Hadn’t seen that coming at all, I think I’d hardly mentioned the SNP. I think he’s become quite active since.

      I think he’s a wings reader too, I’ll ask next time I see him. Obviously one guy isn’t exactly a huge survey but that’s my contribution 🙂

    115. Paula Rose says:

      Wings is a site for all, all of you please comment and make your views known.

    116. Croompenstein says:

      @Paula Rose – are you still talking about sex education in school? I’ll get back to you there’s footy on.. 🙂

    117. Paula Rose says:

      What’s footy?

    118. handclapping says:

      What’s sex?

    119. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      300? I spent all afternoon and into the evening doing just about 80. Mind you, the scenery was worth it.

      I got to what I knew to be the end of a no-through-road up a glen, and there was another house sitting tantalising and substantial about half a mile further on. I could see the road was diabolical – unfenced, unmetalled and full of potholes – and I knew from the electoral register there were no more voters in that glen. But my curiosity got the better of me.

      Slowly and carefully I drove to the house, opening and shutting two field gates on the way. It was coming on rain. Of course, once I got there, I found it was unoccupied. No garden path and the “lawn” a sward of knee-high grass. Just a sheep fank next to it. I swear there was someone in the huge-windowed conservatory of the last inhabited house watching all this and thinking, that woman is completely off her rocker. I didn’t really care though, curiosity was satisfied.

      I did care when I got back to the nearest village and the bistro where I planned to have an evening meal. Someone had ordered the last steak 15 minutes before I got there. If only I hadn’t gone on to that empty house… (Never mind, the sea bass was delicious.)

    120. Not sure if GSA would be insured. Probably costs too much to insure a building such as that. And I don’t think government buildings are insured now.

      Even if the actual structure can be restored, there’s all the interior fixtures and fittings. An army of craftspeople will presumably be required.

      Hopefully the full extent of the damage will soon be known, and decisions can then be taken about how to go forward.

    121. StevieMcB says:

      Never mind Morag to go that extra bit is inspiring & there’s always good Scottish fare to feed the belly at the end of an evening.

    122. willie fae kilwinning says:

      handclapping says:
      24 May, 2014 at 9:43 pm

      What’s sex?

      It’s what posh folk get there coal in.

    123. Croompenstein says:

      @willie fae kilwinning – LOL 🙂 I remember sex back in the day…

      btw – drove through Kilwinning last week and saw the BT billboard lie aboot the pound at the traffic lights, pity sumdy couldnae spray yes we can on it.. 😈

    124. Lesley-Anne says:

      Oops!

      Looks like all is not quite so plain sailing as Better Together thought it would be with their lies, deceit and misinformation half hour a.k.a. their cinema adverts. 😛

      http://tinyurl.com/qewqzmo

    125. Paula Rose says:

      btw darlings – http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/ – luxury coach travel, plus burlesque.

    126. Phil Robertson says:

      This posting itself gets close to being racist!

      To state that immigrants will face ONLY hatred and vilification in England is a dreadful slur on millions of decent people living south of the border. You should apologise.

      It is also naive to think that there is no antagonism to immigrants in Scotland.

    127. Graham Hughes says:

      “Most of the rest of the civilised world”? As distinct from what? The uncivilsed people elsewhere? I agree with the thrust of the article but that reference sounds a bit imperialist.

    128. cath says:

      It’s likely most “immigrants” to Scotland are from rUK and will continue to be post independence. That’s what the SNPs open borders policy relates to – rUK. So essentially this this Daily Record article is anti English.

    129. Louise says:

      All these people coming into this country to fill required jobs? Where are the jobs? I’m looking for one!

    130. Taranaich says:

      “Most of the rest of the civilised world”? As distinct from what? The uncivilsed people elsewhere? I agree with the thrust of the article but that reference sounds a bit imperialist.

      Well, if you’re counting the nomadic pastoralists, hunter-gatherers and tribal communities(San, Hazda, Sentinelese, Yupik) then they don’t tend to rely on much immigration to counter the costs of looking after its elders. Civilisation in that context simply means a society which mostly dwells in cities.

    131. Muscleguy says:

      @BtP
      No cave for you laddie. You’ll be in the tropical house in the Gardens chowing down on the bamboo, which doesn’t grow fast enough to support a grazing animal when grown outside here in Scotland.

      I grew up in sub tropical Auckland, NZ and have eaten of the bamboo shoots from our own garden.

    132. Desimond says:

      Do these numbers include the Magrits and Murphys returning hame for the new high payingjoabs at New Scottish Labour?

    133. Anonymous Scot says:

      I moved to China in 2009 to seek work, as the job market in Glasgow was too bleak – and my careers advisor told me that I could work overseas for a while and I could return back in a couple of years. I chose China because my then partner / now wife is Chinese.

      I’ve been trying to return home for 2 years now but I have failed to do so because I don’t earn the minimum £18,600 per annum (£22,400 with one child, or £62,500 in savings). I am 26 and I feel that the threshold is too high, more than half of the UK earns below that. Because of Westminster’s ignorant views, this rule only suites the South East, i.e. London.

      Now I am stuck in limbo in China, and my mother is in her 60s and will need knee replacements soon, so I must return home without my wife, and we could be separated for years. I don’t understand the reasoning behind this cruel immigration law, I am a Scottish/British citizen and I am being denied the right to a family life. My wife can speak fluent English and is almost qualified to be a teacher.

      That’s why my entire family will be voting yes. Keeping families together “Yes”. So much for “Better Together”.

    134. Robert Kerr says:

      Surely it’s not the old Reichstag trick.

      Expected more originality from our masters.

    135. runningman says:

      Jeez, Flyer, you are paranoid. Scotland’s Lord Haw Haw.

    136. witness says:

      has anyone bothered asking why birth rates are declining in the first place?

      its occasionally mentioned, but never explained. my personal theory is that we’ve finally become so entitled, self-centered and slavish towards our employers we’ve forgotten to reproduce.



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