Coup versus coup
Today, a collection of UK politicians who were to all intents and purposes attempting to arrange a coup have been complaining that the government has beaten them to it by organising a coup against their coup. The fox has ambushed the chickens.
Boris Johnson’s move to prorogue Parliament for most of September and a chunk of October actually only represents a couple of weeks of extra holiday time for MPs – Westminster would be shut for most of the time in question anyway for party conference season.
The Commons would open for business again on 14 October, in time to debate the outcome of a crucial European Council summit on 17-18 October. If that meeting doesn’t provide any new deal – and it’s vanishingly unlikely that it will – then there’ll be no time for anything other than a no-deal Brexit.
But there wasn’t anyway.
Because the cold hard fact of the matter is that the opposition has no case. The UK has a democratically-elected government which is currently scheduled to run until the summer of 2022. And that government has a mandate to deliver Brexit, in any form, come what may.
It’s a common cry from Remain-supporting politicians and media alike that Johnson has “no mandate” for no-deal. But leaving all personal opinion aside, it’s simply not possible to support that argument with reasoning.
Two-and-a-half years ago, the UK parliament voted overwhelmingly – 498 to 114 – to enact Article 50, the mechanism by which a member of the European Union leaves the organisation. The terms of Article 50 are clear, and stipulate a no-deal exit unless a deal is done. The EU has already granted the UK two extensions on the timetable, which have produced absolutely nothing.
Four months later, a general election was held in which both main parties pledged to uphold the invocation of Article 50, and in which they secured 83% of the vote between them. The only UK-wide party standing on a manifesto of opposing Brexit got 7%.
If the UK had wanted to vote to stop Brexit, that would have been the time to do so. And like it or not, nothing has happened since then which provides any sort of democratic basis for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum.
There’s been a vote of no confidence in the government. It failed. An administration elected (with the second-highest share of the vote in 35 years) on a policy of enacting Brexit via Article 50 remains legitimately, if precariously, in power. Several democratic votes in the House Of Commons have failed to agree on any form of deal, leaving no-deal as the default. That’s how the Article 50 process is designed. That’s what’s meant to happen. Everybody knew that, and they voted down all the deals anyway.
The Prime Minister, who took office in accordance with the constitutional norms which also saw (for example) Gordon Brown and Nicola Sturgeon become leaders of their respective countries without new elections, has all the mandate he needs.
The electorate voted for a process in which no-deal was always a possible – arguably a probable – outcome, and it endorsed that at the ballot box in June 2017. Nobody was prevented from voting Lib Dem in that election.
Even in Scotland, which voted Remain by a large margin in 2016 and returned a majority of anti-Brexit SNP MPs, most voters actually voted for the two parties who had expressly pledged to carry out Brexit in accordance with Article 50.
(1.47m Scots voted Labour or Tory, while 1.16m voted SNP or Lib Dem.)
“Ah,” say Remainers, “but in 2017 we were still being told that it would all work out fine, so that doesn’t count.” Well, okay then. How about May 2019, when the UK should already have left the EU and it was crystal-clear that the whole thing was a trainwreck, because we’d somehow got ourselves involved in the European Parliament election?
The EU elections offered voters a free hit. Your taxes aren’t going to go up because of which MEPs you elect, your kid’s school isn’t going to close, your pension isn’t going to be cut. It’s a safe protest shot, and every party more or less explicitly made the vote a de facto second Brexit referendum.
What happened? Hard-Brexit parties won 43.2% of the vote, and anti-Brexit parties got 40%. (Labour, at best, were neutral. In reality they were still officially for Brexit, just a better Brexit.) Given a second bite at the cherry, Britain voted Leave again. And only 37% of people bothered to vote at all. Hardly evidence of a massive popular uprising.
So both Parliament and the voters have more than had their say. They’ve had chance after chance to stop a no-deal Brexit, and have taken none of them. Sooner or later injury time has to run out and the referee will blow his whistle.
The opposition are of course entitled – indeed, obliged – to take any steps within the rules to try to achieve their aims. But they’re the opposition for a reason. They lost the election. Unlike in Scotland, where a party seeking to repeat a referendum won an electoral and parliamentary mandate for their goal, no such thing has happened in the UK. Boris Johnson has not carried out a revolution. He is the PM by wholly lawful means. Democracy is prevailing.
It may yet be that a legal challenge will succeed where democratic means have failed. But we suspect that any such victory would be a Pyrrhic one, short-lived and swiftly followed by the election of a hardline Tory/Brexit Party administration.
(Labour haven’t been above 30% in the polls since the European elections, and their average over the period is just 23.8%. Since Johnson became PM they’ve led in one poll out of 18. Six of those polls have given the Tories double-digit leads, never mind the Brexit Party vote which has also been in double digits for most of them. Imagine how much further Labour could fall if all its Leave-voting seats in the north of England blamed it for denying them their Brexit.)
But in any event, we don’t think it will succeed. And the truth is that it shouldn’t, for the reasons we’ve outlined above. However terrible it will be – and it will be terrible – the UK has chosen to leave the EU on October 31, and has rejected every opportunity to change its mind. It has taken none of them. It has chosen – public and politicians alike – what’s coming, and it deserves to get what it chose.
Scotland had the chance to pre-emptively avoid the UK’s fate in 2014, and bottled it. But we also democratically chose to vote on it again. Scotland’s politicians now need to accept the UK’s choice and devote all of their efforts to assembling the lifeboats and giving their country the chance that British voters have already had and spurned.
(Imagine for a moment how we’d feel if we’d won the indyref 52-48, won a subsequent election, and it was Unionists who were now trying to stop independence in the courts or with dubious procedural shenanigans. We’d be scandalised, and rightly so.)
It’s time to get out of the UK. Let’s be normal.
A valid point. If they want to Brexit then we should focus on Independence. We should have always been focused on Independence anyway.
Totally agree – we must have Indy2 now and if Scotland votes No again then they deserve everything that is coming to them – and it will not be pretty or fair because it never has been and never will be while ruled by Westminster. Independence is our only hope.
We’ve tried to save the U.K. from itself (whatever one might think of the wisdom of trying).
There is nothing to be gained by keeping on with the U.K.
Time for Scotland to have a vote.
Section 30 would have been nice but it is not essential.
To only hold a vote if the U.K. agrees undermines The Claim of Right and our right to self determination under the UN Charter.
Time to use the mandates (pleural) while we can
If we hesitate any longer we may be prevented by force.
What a mess. Part of me wants us to now to crash out and what happens happens. If it is as bad as predicted then maybe Scotland will finally vote for independence. Then again, if we are in a mess will people still vote Yes if they think there will be further disruption – even in the short term.
Even if there is a Yes majority vote with SNP so vocal in calling for a second referendum etc. on Brexit the unionists can then do the same for independence as I can’t imagine it would be won by a huge margin.
I don’t know the answer.
Yesterday the opposition parties met and a key point was to support NOT shutting down parliament for party conferences. The issue is so important that they would have had every chance of achieving this.
I completely disagree that the government have a mandate for a no deal Brexit, leavers were told that “this would be the easiest deal in history”, that “the UK hold all the cards” ect ect.
Not all leavers voted for No deal and that much is clear, all the rhetoric from the Vote Leave side was for a “better deal” than membership of the EU currently offered.
It is clear that opinion in the UK has changed and Remain is now in the majority, less than 30% of the electorate support a no deal Brexit.
I do not believe that Johnson can win this one, parliament will win and he will be toast. A gambler needs to quit while he’s winning, Johnson will end up with nothing.
Just my opinion, can’t be long now before all is revealed.
Spot on. Also worth noting that the SNP government don’t (as far as I know) have a mandate to stop Brexit for the rUK, although their mandate could reasonably be said to include stopping Brexit for Scotland. However that latter mandate requires independence, either for Scotland, or the left field option of independence from the UK for England and maybe Wales.
On the plus side, the impending no deal Brexit will surely put clear water between Yes and No, with Yes pulling ahead by a statistically significant margin at last. even the hard of understanding must be seeing the penny drop at last (along with the pound…). Time for the SNP to stop the futile attempts to stop Brexit against England’s wishes. Time to concentrate on the real imperative – independence for Scotland. Let’s go.
The Deil take the hindmost as they say.
We have tried to help the UK Parliament see reason. They have repeatedly rejected those overtures because the English public majority wants Brexit. We in Scotland have rejected Brexit by a majority.
Time to bring matters to a head.
Question is, what happens to the devolvd parliaments after ‘UK’ has left the EU. It will be a free for all at Westminster, there’s billions to be made, with the environmentalist, ( mental being the important bit), Trump chomping at the bit to get his greedy hands on, well anything really.
UK is up for auction on 31st October, let’s just hope the union is ‘going, going, gone’. Otherwise Scotland will also be sold off as a job lot. Lock, stock and literally barrel.
UK, soon to be the US’ bitch, woopee!
Scotland, SNP, get moving now, keep it quiet if you want, but call a referendum before it really is too late.
Ps cool fox.
Can’t disagree with anything. Democracy, such as we have it, is a fickle mistress. I just wonder why there wasn’t a more concerted effort previously to give the electorate a second vote once the reality of No Deal Brexit because clearer. I would argue that only happened AFTER the last GE and so even that mandate was won on shifting sand.
But, we are where we are. Scotland has a chance to “think again”. The efforts across all media platforms seems to be to manipulate Scots into voting to remain shackled to the UK once again, so I can only assume that they need us more than we need them.
Time for clear, unambiguous, and assertive leadership. I wonder if we’ll get it?
John Major, one of the loudest complainers, prorogued parliament when it suited him
http://archive.is/IHeG6
Rev Stu says
Indeed. The dice have been cast, Brexit will happen, Scotland WILL be dragged out against our will. The time for prevarication has passed.
Absolutely, Westminster could have backed Joanna Cherry and took the “No Deal”off the table, with just a normal vote. There was nae need to resort to all this scrambling to find ” Westminster Mechanisms” ….. And still they didn’t do it.
We need to start the process and get on with it…
In the mean time…
I’m wondering if Westminster is suspended and therefore Scotland has no functioning Government for Reserved issues, could Holyrood “suspend” the Treaty of Union and take over the Reserved Power’s till Westminster is functional again ,then vote on returning the powers… Or not…
A sort of reverse of what they’ve done to N.Ireland?
“Yesterday the opposition parties met and a key point was to support NOT shutting down parliament for party conferences. The issue is so important that they would have had every chance of achieving this.”
And if they had, then what? Parliament’s been sitting for three and a half years without finding any solutions. What good would another three and a half weeks do?
“Not all leavers voted for No deal and that much is clear, all the rhetoric from the Vote Leave side was for a “better deal” than membership of the EU currently offered.”
The only thing we can say for sure is that people voted to Leave, and that the process for leaving is Article 50. It doesn’t matter what kind of leaving they imagined. What they voted for is Article 50, and Article 50 is proceeding exactly as it’s supposed to. If they didn’t bother to find out what Article 50 was in advance, then hell mend them. Nobody else is to blame.
I think John Bercow will prevent parliament being prorogued but not sure how. Does anyone know what an “order in council” is and how it works?
Proud of the English to be honest.
We needed some of this in our indy ref. Same fear mongering, same crap. The Scottish wrung their hands and caved in. The English voted out.
Well – its all there.
The process of avoiding ‘conflict’ in Westminster is the issue. Literally two sides go to ‘war’ is what is happening, over what Article 50 meant – but you do clarify that it does mean ‘stupid’ with no getouts.
Party conference season arrives and I doner how the BBC will go over these. The SNP one will be feisty.
Independence for England ! ! !
Problem(s) solved 🙂
” Scotland’s politicians now need to accept the UK’s choice and devote all of their efforts to assembling the lifeboats and giving their country the chance that British voters have already had and spurned.
It’s time to get out of the UK. Let’s be normal.”
—————–
Sums up my feelings.
WM/Britnats have made their bed and want to sleep in it, their choice so let them.
NS IMO, should stop faffing about trying to save the UK from Englands fate, they don’t want it. She can honestly say she tried but can she not now simply turn the lights off at the English border and get moving with pushing Scotland’s constitution, our rights, sovereignity and that means standing up on her hind legs and not taking any crap from the Viceroys at the Scotland office, the house jocks.
A true assessment of matters arising !
Show some respect. Let England go now .
How would we like it if England was interfering in our affairs !!!
I would disagree with your premise that “Democracy was prevailing”.
A form of democracy maybe but not a true democracy.
Queenie ensconced in Balmoral North of the Wall and three politically approved government officials must be present to witness the signing of the prorogation document.
Jacob Rees Mogg likely to be one of the three wise men.
Queenie will sign no problem.
Totally agree with the Rev’s last paragraph – I and other btl commenters have been arguing for some time to forget about preventing Brexit and focus on delivering independence.
We are now on a knife edge timing wise. To coin a phrase by Boris it’s now ‘do or die’ – the SNP need to get their act together and deliver on their mandate. They will simply never be forgiven if they allow us to Brexit – that was not what they pledged. They clearly said we would be able to decide our future when the terms of Brexit were known and before we left the EU.
These last 3 years of inaction on independence has left me so disillusioned with the SNP. I cannot get my head around that we’re aiming for a referendum in late 2020 when we knew we were due to Brexit in March 2019, and purely by the grace of the EU, a stay of execution to October 2019.
Quite frankly, I feel they’ve allowed events to control their strategy (jeez that’s if they’ve even got one!).It really is time to throw the dice.
Maybe nicola wants us to crash out if the EU before indy. Then she could appeal to the sizable minority of yes voters that voted leave. Give a new referendum on the EU after we get indy.
I am against leaving the EU, or maybe I should say I am For rejoining after indy, but appearing to tie the Indy vote to staying in The EU may have been a mistake thats alienated almost a third of voters
re Carol@12.06
You say, ‘Then again, if we are in a mess will people still vote Yes if they think there will be further disruption – even in the short term’. Did you not see Rees Mogg say it will take 50 years before benefits of Brexit are felt.
That’s, 50 years, nowhere near the ‘short term’ you mention!
‘Disruption’, ‘Mess’. It won’t be just a bit of disruption or a mess, it will be horrific. Food shortages, medicines in short supply, riots, curfews, that’s what the ‘union’ is quite happy to land us with. A dystopian nightmare, no deal Brexit will mean you can’t get out of the UK easily, the shutters will be firmly shut, and you may even see the US army on our streets.
It’s a really terrifying future, and imagine if you are young, facing this insular, narrow, locked in, British Nationalist inward looking, police state with a far right wing Tory gov for the foreseeable future. The young need to be free, to concentrate on putting the world to rights after the adults in charge have shat on the planet quite literally.
Scotland will vote yes next indy ref, there is a majority for it now. It just has to be timed right, it’s getting close now though, we are nearly out of time. The Britnats won’t allow Scotland to go easily, given that Scotland’s massive resources are what keeps the ‘UK’, the ‘union’ viable.
Your second paragraph makes no sense at all btw.
The majority of us know the sensible path to tread would be to exit the UK and take our chances as Indy, in or out of the EU. Alas, a good proportion of Scots are thick as shit (taking various guises) so hell mend them n’aw.
UK politics now revolves around three elements conspiring together:-
– unscrupulous politicians who consciously set out to deceive
– a media who cover those politicians arses and work to ensure as many confused, ill informed, and disengaged voters as possible
– and, vested financial interests, vulture capitalists, tax avoiders,
Democracy cannot function properly when a large percentage of voters are prevented from making informed judgements.
Every vote is the same, many voters cast their votes without really having understood the full implications. Clearly many NOs in 2014, and many Leaves in 2016 SHOULD have known what they voted for, but can’t possibly have.
Scotland can do better.
Artyhetty@12.36
I aplologise if I was not clear in my post but thank you for reminding me why I (very) rarely post on here. That post will be my last.
The Scottish Government has worked hard to avoid Scotland being dragged out of the EU. No one can say they reacted optimistically to the leave vote. However, enough is enough. It is time to get the shoulder to the Indy wheel. Time is running out and if we delay much longer all the boats will sail without us.
Very disappointed in SNP for playing this coup de game with Labour.
All it speaks of is we tge SNP too feart to go for Independence. Looks linebtge Yes Movement again will have to do all the work.
@Joe
28 August, 2019 at 12:22 pm
“Proud of the English to be honest”
Been saying this for a while.
When I’m in a pessimistic mood, have opined that we don’t deserve independence after bottling it 5 years ago under a deluge of the same baseless threats and lies which former colonies endured (e.g Malta).
Our neighbours watched us meekly bottle it but were having none of the project fear. I may disagree with their choice but here we are now, being meekly dragged out of the EU.
I can see us, in years to come, stuck here, ruined, still infighting while the yoons sneak control of Holyrood, if direct rule hasn’t already closed that down.
Oops all it speaks of is the SNP too wee and too feart…
Totally agree Clootie. I’m continually surprised and confused with how much effort the SNP are putting into saving England from itself, a future that they chose through the ballot box and reinforced by the continual voting down of deals by the UK Parliament.
I just can’t see what the purpose the SNP have in doing this but then maybe I’m too stupid to see the grander plan. Right now it seems the only way for a majority vote for Scottish independence is for:
1. Boris Johnson as PM, AND
2. A Hard Brexit
Changes in either of these e.g. deposing Boris through a no-confidence vote, or finally agreeing to a soft Brexit plan that the EU accepts will result in those waverers in Scotland backing the union. For the SNP to actively work in changing both conditions is crazy IF their primary aim is to achieve Scottish independence unless they have some secret plan. If they think it’s to gain a Section 30 order from a future PM Corbyn then that may work but then they’ve removed the conditions needed to win the vote and will very likely lose again.
Maybe they’re too scared of how close the polls are and are worried they’ll (we’ll) lose again but I think that if it can’t be won now then it won’t be one literally for a generation (10-20 years) i.e. enough time for the current overwhelmingly unionist 60+ age group to die off, leaving behind generations that believe independence isn’t only a good thing but is inevitable. So might as well go for it and settle the question once and for all because, like the opposition, I’m getting tired now with the constant talk of possible independence.
@Joe 12:22 it’s like a big social science experiment where you repeatedly tell one group of people that they invented democracy, ran the biggest ever empire bringing civilisation to the world, won 2 world wars single-handedly, not to mention a world cup and another group of almost identical people that they are drunken, workshy, violent parasites who couldn’t possibly look after themselves.
@ Joe – that’s a false analogy. The oligarch press and media were unanimously opposed to Scottish independence and broadcast project fear daily.
The oligarch press and media support BREXIT and have broadcast anti-EU propaganda for decades. Many English are doing what their masters tell them, but not all
That should opportunistically not optimistically above…stupid bloody auto correct.
While this is being touted as an affront to democracy Johnson is using the means he has at hand to get what he wants. It is debatable whether it is illegal. We had fair warning. Jacob R-M advocated this months ago.
Johnston is not playing nice, Tories never do. Is he pushing Parliament into a corner with 2 weeks to pass May’s deal as it is better than no deal option because he can bring it back again now.
Why are we surprised when the people who have the power use it? Is it because we are feart to do it for ourselves? Why are we not doing the same?
Joanna Cherry is using her legal skills and knowledge to work on behalf of the remain voting UK so why can’t she do it for us, for Independence? I saw her on Sky saying we shouldn’t fear a GE because the SNP are riding high in the polls and Indy support is going up as well. So why are not acting in those circumstances? How many indicators of support do the SNP high heed yins need?
The idea of ‘lets do it the right way, the nice way’ means we will still be saying that in 20 years time when it finally dawns on the ‘wait and see’ mob what an opportunity we had – and lost.
Fair enough, but if the Indy parties were bottle preparations for an iScotland on the scale that the British classe politique have over Brexit, then the Unionists parties would be in their rights to demand calling the whole exercise off. In a first-past-the-post system with no recourse to launching referenda (say like in Switzerland), voters can’t vote for a lot of policy granularity.
So should Sturgeon be making moves to hold a second indyref or election in Scotland right now? And if shes not why not?
Is there any point in waiting to see the outcome of the oppositions challenge on the matter?
@Carol
28 August, 2019 at 12:43 pm
Artyhetty@12.36
Keep on posting please.
I don’t post often and many of my ramblings only made sense in my head!
Your second paragraph made perfect sense to me. In the event of a close indy win, of course the unionists will try variations of the arguments used by remainers to have another crack at it.
On crashing out, part of me hopes this would shift opinion in a positive way but I fear we’ll just bottle it instead.
Her Maj could well say “I’m too old for this shit, sod this, I’m outa here! Go talk to Charlie!”.
“It’s time to get out of the UK. Let’s be normal.”
We have Nicola Sturgeon and SNP detractors and supporters on Wings.
That argument is about to be settled.
OT
Heard a few times on big Auntie and Auntie wie a kilt this morning that all this spending Boris is planning for Polis, the NHS and Education darn Sarf is…
‘a devolved matter in Scotland’.
Is that to lower expectations of any Barnett consequentials?
Or are we getting a crumb or two?
@Scozzie
“They clearly said we would be able to decide our future when the terms of Brexit were known and before we left the EU.”
That’s right, that’s exactly what Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP said and she has stuck to it. Have I missed something? Have we left yet? Was Brexit resolved while I was sleeping.
I can understand the feeling to “just get on with it” that’s the way most of the UK electorate feel about the EU. they’ve been conditioned to think like that. So too have a great number of Independence supporters been conditioned to think “just get on with it”.
Well fuck that, I don’t want to “just get on with it”, I want to win it. Let’s go NOW and fuck it all up at the last minute. Calm down, lets get Brexit down and dusted. The legislation is going through Holyrood now for a second referendum and we will be having one next year.
Many were screaming for another Independence referendum to be held in 2018, since then support has only increased and made the probability of actually winning the referendum a good deal better. The chances of winning will continue to improve as Westminster implodes.
Scotland has waited for 312 years for this opportunity, what’s another few more months or even a year? All that matters is that a second referendum is won, no glory to be found in a close defeat and a victory for the No vote. That really will be the end of Independence for a generation.
“Clootie says:
28 August, 2019 at 12:01 pm
A valid point. If they want to Brexit then we should focus on Independence. We should have always been focused on Independence anyway.”
No truer words spoken. The SNP has massively fallen into the stop brexit trap (accidentally I think) at the cost of 2 years indyref preparations. We could’ve also been most of the way towards a court deciding if we have the right to do our own referendum by now.
Shame.
@Carol 12.43 pm
Please post, this site is dominated by the same voices who get to say the same thing over and over again or to put down tentative souls who want to be heard.
We need more opinions whether others think they are coherent or not.
Comments really should not ‘marked’ by other commenters although there are some who think they have a right to so on a regular basis! Not you, Artyhetty, I’m sure you did not mean to put someone off from posting.
We all get frustrated here occasionally.
I can’t for the life of me understand why the SNP didn’t vote for May’s deal. Then they could have said “we respect referenda results” and gained some respect — or, at least, closed down the usual Yoon attack line of not respecting referenda results.
I’m really disappointed in the SNP’s approach to Brexit. They should have worked to hurry it along and, in so doing, hurried Scottish Independence along too.
Seems like all Wingers are “really disappointed” in the SNP for one reason or another LOL. Get over it, we have a referendum to win and without the SNP that is to put iot mildly highly unlikely.
A lot of you know that though eh? That’s the point eh?
Liz g @ 12:16,
If the constitutional theory is that Westminster is the normal repository of Scottish sovereignty within the UK, while that house is prorogued and has therefore abdicated that function, it follows that the repository would naturally transfer to any other body that is fully functioning and can properly represent the will of the people. Namely Holyrood.
So it seems to me that while WM shuts itself down, the Scottish Parliament can enact any legislation required in order to continue to represent the will of the people of Scotland (and Sewell be damned).
IndyRef2, anyone…?
Thepnr says:
28 August, 2019 at 1:11 pm
“@Scozzie
“They clearly said we would be able to decide our future when the terms of Brexit were known and before we left the EU.”
That’s right, that’s exactly what Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP said and she has stuck to it. Have I missed something? Have we left yet? Was Brexit resolved while I was sleeping.
….Calm down, lets get Brexit down and dusted. The legislation is going through Holyrood now for a second referendum and we will be having one next year.”
Juxtaposed so you can see the contradiction which explains the original posters concerns more clearly.
Whatever the outcome of today’s events, it’s impact on Independence support can only be in one direction and that is upwards. I believe this is an error by Johnson and Cummings that they might not recover from.
Who cares, support for Independence goes up no matter what. Johnson has just proven to Scotland how undemocratic Westminster actually is, he has shown that if he can close down Westminster he would have no issues whatsoever in closing down Holyrood.
I don’t think Scot’s will take kindly to this other than rabid British Nationalist Tories resident in Scotland. Your proud Scot buts won’t give a shite if Holyrood were to be closed. Fortunately in the majority we will have a say in that.
@Thepnr
So the SNP can hold us all to ransom because they are the only hope we have? Only they can deliver Independence? Are you sure about that? Maybe that is what they are counting on for now but I recall the Labour Part used to occupy the same ground, they were supposedly our only option for a long time.
You forget there are more Independence supporters than SNP members or voters.
If the SNP do not deliver we will go somewhere else and that may take time but the desire for Independence is greater than the SNP who could be the conduit now or resign themselves to oblivion.
Let the chaos begin. Let Scotland take full advantage of such chaos. If British nationalists aren’t playing by their own Westminster rules why the hell should Scotland. Scotland must add to the chaos by following its own independent rules.
Thepnr @ 12:07,
The EU referendum was so befuddled with dark money and outright deception that no-one has a clue what Leavers thought they would be getting, least of all the Leavers themselves. Whatever fantasy fitted. Some at least though have settled on no-deal since. Though you are likely right, in the meantime there is probably not a majority for Leave even in England.
A point that everyone seems to have forgetten: the EU referendum was only advisory. Despite all the spurious claims about “the will of the people” since, there was no obligation upon WM to enact anything whatever. That it did so was down to the Tory government of the day and their Tory, Labour and DUP enablers.
This is the raw nature of power, and it doesn’t matter a toot in such cases what the theory may be. As I’ve said before, it’s being run down on a pedestrian crossing by a car crossing against a red light. You may be in the right, but you’re dead anyway.
As Stu rightly says, this is a Tory coup, and Johnson is gambling all on a win. But I can’t agree that it’s certain he’ll lose. Sometimes you just have to cooly weigh things up, take your chances and go for broke.
A lesson worth learning for us too, no…?
Artyhetty@12:36…
“It’s a really terrifying future, and imagine if you are young, facing this insular, narrow, locked in, British Nationalist inward looking, police state with a far right wing Tory gov for the foreseeable future.”
I’m in no way “young” but, in agreeing with your assessment, have concluded that if Scotland doesn’t leave the UK – then I’m leaving Scotland, and I’ll do my utmost to persuade my kids to do likewise.
@robertknight I’m already making my plans.
Nicola Surgeon speech from March 2017 just before Article 50 was triggered.
The timing of the Brexit negotiations is not within the control of the Scottish Government.
However, we must plan on the basis of what we know now.
And what we know is that on the timetable set out by the Prime Minister, the shape of the Brexit deal will become clear in the autumn of next year – ahead of ratification votes by other EU countries.
That is therefore the earliest point at which a referendum would be appropriate.
However, it is just as important that we do not leave it too late to choose a different path in a timely way.
If the UK leaves the EU without Scotland indicating beforehand – or at least within a short time after it – that we want a different relationship with Europe, we could face a lengthy period outside not just the EU but also the single market. That could make the task of negotiating a different future much more difficult.
These considerations lead me to the conclusion that if Scotland is to have a real choice – when the terms of Brexit are known, but before it is too late to choose our own course – then that choice should be offered between the autumn of next year, 2018, and the spring of 2019.
The third – important – aspect of planning ahead is this.
I have already said that by the time a choice comes to be made, there must be greater clarity about Brexit and its implications for us.
It is just as important that there is clarity about the implications of independence. And there will be…
Having Scotland’s referendum – at a time when the terms of Brexit are known – will give the Scottish people a choice about the kind of change we want.
And it must be a choice for all of us.
https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-speech-scotland-s-referendum/
The terms of Brexit are NOT yet known, it’s as simple as that.
The Scottish parliament needs recalled today. If the SG don’t do this , then they cannot be taken seriously. This is now an emergency!
‘…consign themselves to oblivion…’
Look at the Brexit party for a model of a single issue party capitalising on the Tories and Labour disarray. They do not even have any MPs but can exert pressure that makes the old guard look stale and impotent. Boris Johnston is reacting to that. Granted they have big money backers but should the SNP keep stalling matters may be taken out of their hands.
I would urge those who sneer that the SNP are the only party capable of getting us Independence to just look at politics in the UK over the last few years. It changes at the blink of an eye and in Scotland we are chasing our tails just now.
Maybe we have a party waiting in the ‘ Wings’ that could do the same.
A solemn big Brian on shortbread tells us that
“The Leader of the Scottish Conservative Party was not available for comment”
——————————————————-
Reported on sky that:
Sturgeon calls for a GE daring Boris to show the courage of his convictions.
Not much of a sabre rattle but a sgian-dubh non the less 🙂
Well I agree with the Rev, we’ve tried to save England from itself, but, they clearly don’t want any input from us at all.
Okay, so where do we go from here. Westminster seems to be running round in circles, and has been for the last three and a bit years. They voted down the Maybot’s deal three times, some of them won’t agree to the backstop and want it removed. The ERG have said, even if the backstop should be removed, they still will not vote for the deal because it will not be brexit. Round and round we go.
The Rev has a good point, and I’ve had this discussion numerous times with family and friends, if I had voted to leave, and watched this pantomime, I’d be livid. Whether we like it or not, the vote for leaving the EU won. England wants to leave the EU, so let them. No deal was always the default position if a deal couldn’t be agreed. If anyone did not realise this three years ago, well they were not paying enough attention.
We in Scotland now have other fish to fry, and time is of the essence. Can we now please start looking after Scotland and her people, and leave England to theirs, after all that was their choice.
Oh by the way, Carol, keep on posting. You’re opinion is as valid as anyone else, and you are entitled to express that if you wish.
Only some privy councillors are getting an invite with Betty – not all. T’was ever thus. Betty won’t support a prorogue at this time, not until there’s been a few riots.
An invitation…. lets look at this situation from the other end of the telescope.
Where we are now – on the cliff top of a No Deal Brexit – is not happenstance. It was a well thought out and executed plan, with players doing their bit in every single political party in the UK.
Prorogue leads to riots, riots lead to State of Emergency, which leads to No deal by default, which enables Holyrood being shut down, which means bye bye SNP, IndyRef2 bye-bye.
Once you look at it this way, and face up to it, now as individual and as YESSERs, now we can plan.
Stock up on essentials, as best you can.
Be prepared for the Internet – or at the very least sites like this to be stopped. Print off all the posters that are likely to be of use, and print them off now.
Set up lines of communication that do not rely on phones (land and mobile) or computers. Knowledge is power. The aim should be that we can get the true story about an incident from one part of the country to the other in under a day.
And from the other side of the coin, mobile phone cameras – film footage is worth its weight in gold, for the tech magicians, if they can get footage safely out onto the world stage, that would be brilliant. Lets not have the BBC dictating the narrative.
Work out how to peacefully protect and protest the democratic institutions that are important to you.
Look out for each other. We are, on the whole, a very decent country and peoples – lets not lose that under any circumstances.
Ensure your political party of choice is ensuring some way (and the time for a oh so polite S30 is long gone) of the Scottish electorate being able to express their democratic choice at the ballot box.
And if they cannot or will not do this, then ensure there is no ambiguity and their bum is out the window on this subject and we can take our funding and our votes to those who will.
But most of all, prepare and plan. None of this may come to pass, it may very well be worst case scenario. Will it hurt to make ready. No, it will not.
The state perpetrates emergency. Time the people act up – we have a democratic country to win.
@SilverDarling
Who is being “held to ransom” by the SNP?
I do wish Nicola would stop saying “the country” when she means “the UK”.
I’m not being pedantic. This matters. It sends out a message which she shouldn’t be sending.
It’s not difficult to be careful with language. NO SNP office holder should ever refer to the UK as “the country”!
@Thepnr
There’s good sense in what you say – it may be that playing things safe-and-sensible, however, will be misconstrued by many as mere vacillation and an inability to lead.
Privy council member Ian Blackford should today tell Mrs Windsor her so-called united kingdom is a sickening farce, and remind her the people of Scotland are sovereign in Scotland.
SNP didn’t vote for May’s deal as it was a bad deal.
It would still have delivered massive job cuts up here
And still have caused economic hardship for many years to come.
England deserves Brexit!
It is there only to keep the off shore assets and money laundering facilities
Away from looming new Tax laws and checks from the EU.
England has a majority of white supremists and they bristle with confidence
That they will once more rule the world and be able to rape and rob their Colonies
As once they did.
Scotland has tried to guide them away from this disastrous course but they
Don’t listen to Jocks or need any business with Johnny Foreigner.
When they go hungry, let them eat great British Bake Off.
I demand my Scotland disassociates itself from this fascist neighbour and continues to
Grown as a major European Nation within the world’s largest trading block.
Westminster is only the catalyst for confusion. The real problem is brainwashing.
Let’s get this straight: participating in Westminster is not a habit, it is an addiction. There is no substitute for Westminster, whether it is devolution, or otherwise.
We do not need Westminster. It is not government, it is poison.
Westminster creates the void. Voting to prolong it will never fill the void.
Independence is a frame of mind. Break the chain; break the addiction. It is easy!
What are we giving up? Absolutely nothing! Purge the Westminster monster!
Dispel all delusional thinking. Dispel the brainwashing.
Dispel immediate and future fear. Dispel the fear of quitting.
Dispel the fear of living and embrace the following:
Health, Energy, Confidence, Courage, Rest, Freedom and self-respect
By Order!
😉
Thepnr says:
28 August, 2019 at 1:45 pm
The terms of Brexit are NOT yet known, it’s as simple as that.
Correct. But they will be known (presumably) before we leave on October 31st. You can see why people are looking for some sort of action before then. Even if it is just getting things started in the short time we will have where we know how we are leaving and we haven’t yet left. I can see why many people would be angry if NS only piped up after brexit!
So far……..Ruth Davidson, Willie Rennie and Richard Leonard have said nowt on their twitter accounts re Bojo suspending parliament….
However as usual they are ensuring deflection topics are a plenty.
Perhaps they just expect us all to be BITTER Together now which , it would seem, was what they were REALLY campaigning for pre and post 2014….wow that worked cause voila !….that’s what we have now got….
One would think that all of their, Ruth D & BT colleagues, chickens would have come home to roost considering this current f***ed up position that Scots now find themselves in…BUT as sure as sheeite you and I know that will NEVER EVER be the case……media wagons will circle around them…operation damage limitation …protect…protect…with a wee bit of deflect….deflect…
Please someone somewhere in power within Scotland just say enough is a f***ing enough….cause England is f***ed…..
Who will speak up for Scotland ?….well it will NOT be any Scottish pro Union Councillor, MSP, MP, twitter uber Unionist radge, Gordon Brown, liberal minded pundit remainer,English media, Scottish media ( exception The National), pro Union Think tanks ….so if they do not speak up for Scotland then why, in Scotland, are they being given a voice, relevance, platform, acknowledgement, credence or to be blunt the time of f***ing day.
This is MADNESS…who the actual f**K in Scotland would , this very day, stand and say this situation is why I voted NO in 2014…..I’m talking ‘normal’ people BTW and of course excepting the usual Union bams that infest our population…really who, in their right mind, would think this whole shit show post 2014 has just been fine and dandy….cause I am MAD as f**k….honestly had enough of this…never mind saving a neighbouring country that has never and will, in the future, never ever actually give a shit about us, Scots, getting our independence…..cause if they could have stopped Brexit it would be…what are you wanting Independence for..you’ll be out of the EU…you won’t get in..etc etc…..in other words we help them to remain in EU and they, in return, will continue to behave exactly the same as they did in lead up to 2014 Indy campaign.
So what is the plan for Scotland now ?
Who cares what kind of Brexit it is. Any Brexit is against the express wishes of the Scottish populace. The UK is leaving the UK , there is no debate.
What has happened today demonstrates the insane charade of a democracy the UK is. Nicola for God’s sake get your finger out and do something.
Enough is enough. Stop tweeting about a GE and moaning about Boris. Get parliament recalled and let’s man those lifeboats.
This UK wreck is going to take Scotland down with it. We cannot wait for it to happen!
“…it may be that playing things safe-and-sensible, however, will be misconstrued by many as mere vacillation and an inability to lead.”
That’s exactly how it is being construed, even by a good many posters on Wings. They want to form the impression that Nicola Sturgeon is indecisive, a useless leader, a backtracker. None of this is true of course.
She has been the most consistent of all politicians, she is the best leader of any UK political party. She’s clever, honest and knows what she wants more than anything else and knows how she will get it.
No wonder the UK powers that be would want you and all Independence supporters to believe something different. Alex Salmond was repeatedly lies about and ridiculed in the MSM his whole political career, it was because they feared his competence.
They fear Nicola Sturgeon too, yet have absolutely no chance of landing a blow via some scandal or other such as they have tried now with Salmond. So all they have is an attempt to reduce support for Nicola sturgeon among Independence supporters through her implied “mere vacillation and an inability to lead”.
The truth is they are running scared and this is all they’ve got.
@Martin
Do you think Boris Johnson, Jeremy Corbyn or Nicola Sturgeon know that the UK is 100% definitely leaving the EU on 31st October. Johnson thinks he is, others think differently.
I doubt very much that anybody on Wings knows either.
“I would disagree with your premise that “Democracy was prevailing”.
A form of democracy maybe but not a true democracy.”
The only form we have. The Tories won the 2017 election on a large vote share. They’re in power until 2022. They’re entitled to carry out their manifesto pledge to implement an Article 50 exit, which they’re doing. What would a “true” democracy look like that was different?
The UK being out with no deal gives added challenges for an independent Scotland as we will require a manned border between us and England.
I can’t see that helping sway voters towards independence.
You neglected to mention the illegalities amongst other lies and underhand tactics by vote leave, something that I do not believe has received the attention it deserves by the authorities. Did May not block an investigation into Aaron Banks while Home Secretary?
Home Office refuses openDemocracy’s request for information about investigation into Banks – saying this “would impede the future formulation of government policy”.
“The legislation is going through Holyrood now for a second referendum and we will be having one next year.”
50 quid?
It is the “end of days”
for the uk.
As Dona Sturgeone seeks a wartime Consilieri to combat Don Johnsonetti who is about to take out the heads of the five parties will the result be Scotia goes to the mattresses or will Dona Sturgeone take on the battle in the trade war over the free movement of the Olive oil business
Assets have been acquired by both rivals, expect a bloodbath
I’ll be in Vegas with Mo and Fredo
Ah c’mon it’s turning into a show! might as well have a laugh, there’s nothing we can do about it until the players have finished filming, the critics criticise, the media gets their fill…….. then we shoot the lot of them for putting us through all this
Queenie famously intervened in 2014 stating that we should think clearly. My advise to queenie would be the same, think very carefully before you sign. Nicola keep on going, end of road is near do not waver or show signs of fear we have your back. God bless
“That’s exactly how it is being construed, even by a good many posters on Wings. They want to form the impression that Nicola Sturgeon is indecisive, a useless leader, a backtracker. None of this is true of course.”
[…]
“These considerations lead me to the conclusion that if Scotland is to have a real choice – when the terms of Brexit are known, but before it is too late to choose our own course – then that choice should be offered between the autumn of next year, 2018, and the spring of 2019.”
Can anyone tell me, is it spring 2019 yet?
@Rev. Stuart Campbell
Your on, a little bet on the side makes it all the more interesting. 🙂
@ Thepnr @ 2.12pm
Spot on Thepnr and well bloody said.
The day after Brexit…Labour announced the chicken coup against Corbyn…Tories were all over the place ( what’s new)…Bojo in shock at Leave result….but Nicola Sturgeon came out and gave a clear message…and she has been on message ever since.
Sky’s reporter Faisal Islam stated the day after Brexit vote that Nicola Sturgeon was the only leader showing any real leadership….
Meanwhile being reported Ruth Davidson NOT NOT NOT giving ANY interviews today…so she is hiding…hypocrite accused Nicola of hiding last week when GERS figures announced…this is NOT making my blood pressure lower because it is this duplicity/hypocrisy that makes me so mad….and the fact not shouted from media rooftops.
So hopefully SNP will do what Unionists do and capitalise on this ….Ruth ‘No second Indy Ref’ Davidson in hiding…cause today it is ( as always) #TORYBAD ……so obvs Ruth has no message to relay to her media pals….BTW seems the new Scottish Secretary is working out well………for WM that is !
I can see where the Rev is coming from with his Indy ref 2 date forecast.
Will it take an established full blown no deal Brexit, a Bojo hating Scotland Prime Minister,
20% increases on food products, 10’s Thousands if job losses and a kick in the teeth for
The Barnett formula before the thick Scottish Unionists wake up.
The bigger the pain from the realities of Brexit the more likely we can win the vote for freedom.
I’m certain the consequences of Brexit will be dire for all but the very rich and Ruth of course.
Daisy Walker 1;53
With Holyrood closed, every general election can become a referendum If SNP campaigned on Indy, then most of the seats in Scotland should be enough under the Westminsters first past the post system.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell
“Can anyone tell me, is it spring 2019 yet?”
That date was based on Theresa May’s timetable as known in March 2017 before Article 50 had been triggered.
“The timing of the Brexit negotiations is not within the control of the Scottish Government.
However, we must plan on the basis of what we know now.
And what we know is that on the timetable set out by the Prime Minister, the shape of the Brexit deal will become clear in the autumn of next year – ahead of ratification votes by other EU countries.
So the expectation at the time of that speech was that by Autumn of 2018 a Brexit deal will have been done and since the outcome was now clear Scotland should have a referendum before spring 2019.
Who could have predicted that Theresa May’s red lines would destroy any chance of a deal and that the UK would be seeking an extension. Who could have predicted Theresa May would be out before the Uk was out of the EU.
Then there’s Bojo, who could have predicted…Oh wait a minute LOL
Look at the main page of the websites of The National and the Herald, and spot the difference.
Mmm, not a lot.
I doubt very much if the stupid SNP [1] could have anticipated this, I mean nobody could have studied Boris Johnson and come to the conclusion he was a spoilt Eton brat, and the wired to the Moon dunce of his class there, could they.
[1] look up the meaning of the words irony, satire, sarcasm or whatever floats your boat
I did think the Indyref2 would occur Sept 19. I didn’t anticipate the clusterdump that is the current Tory Party. However, although it is now too late I still think Sept 19 would have been a good call.
We have no option but to go with the SNP leadership on this. I am hoping they are right and I am wrong.
I did note that the raffle tickets for this year’s conference have Yes on the wee stickers that come with the tickets rather than SNP, as is more usual. Is it a sign…or is this just the Life of Brian.
I am not despondent, but I would be fooling myself if I didn’t confess some anxiety.
Threprn @ 1.45pm
Your extract from Nicola Sturgeon’s speech makes my point – we know the terms of Brexit – it’s the withdrawal agreement or no deal. The WA is not up for negotiation by the EU and we’re heading for no deal as default. What alternative agreement do you think is on the table?
Do you think a Corbyn ‘caretaker’ government is going to achieve an alternative agreement? Do you honestly think the UK is going to revoke article 50? Corbyn has no intention of doing that and there simply is not the arithmetic in HOC for that to happen. Both Labour and Tories will hemorrhage voters in that scenario. This is party over country for both parties.
I am unclear how you can see this playing out in any way that justifies more ‘wait and see’ from the SNP??? We are seriously at the stage of ‘pull your big girl pants on Nicola’!!!!!
“And that government has a mandate to deliver Brexit, in any form, come what may”
I am afraid I have to completely disagree with you on this Rev. That “government” only has a mandate to deliver brexit from England and Wales, it lacks mandate and/or consent from Scotland to do so. Hell that government does not even have a mandate to govern over Scotland. Not one senior minister (and I do not consider the Secretary of State against Scotland a minister), represents a seat from Scotland.
Anyone who thinks that 6 months of hard Brexit being inflicted on Scotland ,will inevitably lead to independence.
Completely neglects to consider that the UK will not be standing around waiting for us to vote. They will carry out a plan to entrap Scotland, and make it impossible for us to leave.
Holyrood will be shut down if the Tories can work out a way to legally do this. We might be left with a Stormont situation. We might be a colony without a parliament. Does anyone really want to watch that happen first?
The Queen doesn’t intervene, she does what she’s told, word for word by the ruling political party or she’s out of a job and the next one gets wheeled out with a crown slapped on their bonce accompanied by a BBC celebration to make us all feel secure and happy
Except this time Bonnie Prince Charlie likely won’t be King Charlie he’ll be King (insert other name here) can’t be having a Scottishy sounding named King now can we in the good old Kingdom of UK England dictatorship
Watch for a surge in support for Independence in Wales
I have no problem with Nicola Sturgeon…she has been constant in saying she wants Scotland to remain in EU….amidst the negative spin of Union politicians being promoted by a majority of the media…..control the media…control the message ?
The problem is what now for Scotland, when will it happen and how will we achieve it ?
Maria that is correct.
However while Scotland remains in the UK , they can drag the whole of the UK out of Europe. We can bleat all we like about democracy and articles of Union etc.
However while we remain under Westminster’s yolk. They are free to do as they please.
That is why so many people like me are frustrated by the SNP trying to change the UK. They should devote their resources to leaving the UK. That is the only avenue where power resides.
The Queenie did her duty all signed!
From an SNP perspective, the strategy seems to have been to show that they weren’t taking glee at the problems that Brexit will likely cause and doing everything they could to prevent it. How much credit this has actually given them is debatable, but it’s probably time to start using it.
Following this morning’s outrageous attack on democracy by Johnson and his band of fascist followers can I suggest that The Guys In The White Hats stage a UCS type of sit in/work in at The HoC as led by Jimmy Reid & Co. at UCS in the 70s.
Speaker Bercow has voiced his outrage at the situation so with him in the chair what can Johnson do to combat it – I can’t see the police marching in and dragging out the MP’s including all the leaders of the opposition parties – major civil unrest would be inevitable.
Given the number of bars in the place I can’t see any possibilty of enforcing a ‘No Bevvying’ rule.
Scots should petition the Scottish Parliament to follow Craig Murray’s advice immediately; resile the Treaty of Union with England, revoke the Act of Union with England etc. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/12/the-scottish-parliament-does-have-the-right-to-withdraw-from-the-act-of-union/?fbclid=IwAR1qusDGh12Jqivd6-GcnVSaOF3iy9loIUepK5da2W5Fl5hHZ4k82pwyJdI
@Scozzie
Please tell us all what the terms of Brexit are. As far as I know we are still in the EU and haven’t left yet. You say:
“it’s the withdrawal agreement or no deal”
Is it really, that isn’t very clear then is it. So which of the two is it to be? What about if the UK doesn’t leave at all? It’s possible, what about if Boris gets a new deal on 17th October without a backstop?
Sure it’s clear. as clear as mud.
@Scozzie
By the way only fools rush in. Time for cool heads.
Alex Salmond tried to show Scotland what might be, and lost
Nicola Sturgeon is showing us what is, then she’ll win
“I don’t want to just hold a referendum, I want to win it”
Remember when she said that
Nicola Sturgeon can’t save us from the shit we’re not in yet
Thepnr @ 2.12
While I agree with the Rev that we need to get things moving ,like yesterday!
I also never saw Nicola as “trying to save England from Brexit”
I saw it as more.. Well you wanted us in this Parliament and the People of England never objected to it,and you persuaded enough Scots to vote for it.
So you’ve bloody well got us….
Now we’ll be doing what we can to stop Brexit,Because that’s also what the people of Scotland voted for!
What was the alternative?
Sit back and wave through Brexit,like the Scottish MPs were put in a box?
They had to fight Brexit if only to demonstrate again and again that the Westminster Parliament is no good for Scotland,and use that time to build the Indy vote.
We’ve now got the Scottish Courts involved…and that will also prove, even they can’t enforce the will of the Scottish People!
Only the Scottish People themselves can do that!
If we really want our vote to stay in the EU to mean something,or any other vote for that matter!!
We can’t look to Westminster or even the Scottish Courts for it!
We need to put that power back to Holyrood…
I think we’re at the end of the road,but there may be some skidding still to do?
I have no idea yet what the braking distance is,but that’s what we pay Nicola to do.
She said let her know if we are ready for Indy…. So like the Rev we also need to start sayin it..
Theres a few people confused about the SNP trying to save the UK from Brexit.
They arent. They are trying to save the EU from Brexit.
The EU is a dying project with its 2nd biggest contributor leaving
I think Bojo the Clown’s actions today have generated a few hundred new signatures
To the First Minister’s Independence Petition.
It has slowed down a bit but think and fast from Bojo’s News.
Approaching 272,500 as we speak.
https://www.yes.scot/
Completely agree with Gordon Ross blog today UK now a dictatorship and we must vote to revoke the treaty of union and once more become a natural independent country and seek recognition from the UN and the European Union.
“That date was based on Theresa May’s timetable as known in March 2017 before Article 50 had been triggered.”
And what was “before it’s too late” based on?
@Liz g
There are abundant reasons for Nicola sturgeon and the SNP to fight to keep the UK in the EU, not least among them that 62% of Scots voted Remain.
It will be a lot easier to convince the wary and unsure soft No supporter to support Independence without arguing that if we stay in the EU then there will be a hard border between Scotland and England.
If after Independence we do reapply for EU membership and rUK has left the EU then it’s unlikely we could become members without our own currency from day 1.
These are arguments that project Fear 2 can’t wait to get started. The Scottish government was absolutely right to fight to remain in the EU because that’s what Scots voted for, to do anything else would have looked not just ridiculous but a dereliction of duty.
Slowly but slowly, Independence gains ground. I’m in no way concerned about what Johnson has done today. Whether he succeeds or not means little, as far as Independence goes it is a massive blunder, people don’t like to be walked all over.
@SilverDarling says: 28 August, 2019 at 1:00 pm:
” … So why are not acting in those circumstances? How many indicators of support do the SNP high heed yins need?
The idea of ‘lets do it the right way, the nice way’ means we will still be saying that in 20 years time when it finally dawns on the ‘wait and see’ mob what an opportunity we had – and lost.”
That’ll be as opposed to taking a gamble before the right time – and ending up with a lost betting slip in our hands like in 2014. There can be no worse outcome than going for it and ending with another lost cause. Betting is a mugs game where only the bookie wins in the long run.
Well, fellow Wingers, we are in for a bumpy ride.
That said, after over 300 years with Westminster’s talons squeezing out the lifeblood of Scotland for England’s benefit….
Did you expect it to be plain sailing?
Let’s get the Indy bandwagon rolling and less dissent in the ranks please.
Queen Approves this afternoon at Balmoral.
………………….Counsellors Present…………………
The Rt Hon Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Rt Hon Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
The Rt Hon Mark Spencer
@Thepnr
Your posts have been superb throughout this thread.
I have always been on the more pessimistic side when it comes to indy. Even during iref1 the only time I actually thought we’d win was that magical last Saturday before the vote when we were neck and neck in the polls. That then died the next day when all those 46-54% polls came in.
But I have literally never felt better about indy than I do just now. We’ve just had a poll that if 16-17s and non-UK EU citizens had been included would have had us 54-46 ahead. We’ve had multiple confirmations that Labour won’t block a S30 Order. We have the most batshit and personally unappealing Tory leader and cabinet of my lifetime (Ms Truss a personal favourite). We have repeated positive noises from the EU about the backing we’ll get in iref2.
And Westminster is about to impose an EU exit so disastrous that many of its supporters can only defend it by saying “We got through the Blitz so we can get through this.” Does anybody seriously think support from our current 54% is going to *fall* after Brexit?
And lastly, despite my history of pessimism, it is impossible to see us losing support during the campaign for iref2. At worst our support might go up into the high sixties and then fall again nearer vote time, as the cowardice kicks in again. But actually lose support overall? No way. Indyref campaigns are the one time that boots on the ground overcome the insane media bias against us. If we go into that campaign ahead, it’s game over.
I understand it’s incredibly hard for people to keep showing patience… and a little more… and a little more, etc. I find it hard as well. But we could be just over a year away from finally escaping that sociopathic predator class in London.
And I really do think that alongside the likes of New Zealand and the Scandy countries, an independent Scotland can be an example to the world of sane self-governance.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell
“And what was “before it’s too late” based on?”
It was based on the belief in March 2017 that by Autumn 2018 the terms of Brexit would be known and that the UK would leave on 29th March 2019 and by which time Scotland could have had a second referendum.
Yes of course things have changed and in fact they are even more uncertain now than what was believed back then.
We do not go until Brexit is settled, to do otherwise is foolhardy in my opinion. Others might disagree and I’m sure they will. It is still a democracy?
Look on the bright side peeps, todays events are worth another good 0.5% towards Yes, at least!
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV
I’m guessing that for the SNP, with known elements like Farage and the ERG, Rees-Mogg who was one of the two went up to Balmoral to recommend the Queen to prorogue democracy (subject to later legal challenge for their advice as Privy Council members) – and BoJo, it wasn’t really about Brexit, it was on the side of democracy and THAT is something maybe 90% or more of the People of Scotland can identify with, whatever their politics.
But we’ll see.
Herald headlines:
Johnson may have made independence ‘completely inevitable’ says Nicola Sturgeon
Politics LIVE: Queen dragged into constitutional row as she approves plan to suspend Parliament
Scottish Tories ‘hiding in their bunker’ after Johnson moves to suspend Commons
How Scottish leaders and politicians reacted to Boris Johnson’s plan to prorogue Parliament
Nicola Sturgeon accuses Johnson of ‘dictatorship’
Nicola Sturgeon responds to Johnson’s general election plan: ‘Bring it on’
The terms of brexit are not known yet, they will not be known until 11pm on 31.10.2019.
Brexit is as we all know a huge issue not just for UK , there will be last minute agreements and adjustments ,things that don’t stop brexit but nevertheless will be of importance.
There is no way Nicola Sturgeon can say when a Scottish independence referendum will take place until all that is past, that has always been the case it’s just that unexpectedly brexit was delayed and delayed and I say unexpectedly because even Nicola Sturgeon wasn’t expecting all these delays and that is why she said she would be making a statement about when a Scottish independence referendum would be taking place by spring 2019.
Sure some people guessed that there would be delays in brexit but there has been intentional uncertainty sown into the garment of brexit from the start just to keep people on edge, uncertainty and edginess amongst the population breeds a stay with what you have mentality.
Time for some people to engage their brain before making rash comments about those who have taken their life long goal to the very brink of success!
Don’t let someone’s ego let Scotland’s independence slip through our hands! Criticism of the SNP at this time is utterly ridiculous and will set us back.
The quality of posts on this site, sadly, has declined rapidly as has the purpose of the site. It now appears to be the vehicle for someone who believes their own publicity.
History tells us that impatience and egos lead to division, time for it to stop!
Effijy 2.41pm ” before the thick Scottish unionists wake up”. Sadly those people would rather live in a post apocalyptic,disease ridden Scotland, as long as they still have their Westminster maisters feet to grovel at. Like whipped curs.
Think we’ve just witnessed the first cannon being fired in the second English Civil War???
Big Auntie says the Scottish Courts have been asked for an emergency injunction (I think they mean interdict?) to bring their case forward and to allow UK parliament to continue until ruling given. (I think that’s the gist) 🙂
Westminster petition – Do not prorogue Parliament is gaining signatures fast.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
I’m in favour of independence.
I think we should let England go since that seems to be what they want. Or at least have a referendum on the subject.
I am in complete disagreement with this article.
Formally, technically, clinically, and superficially, one could argue that the current Government has a democratic mandate for a No Deal Brexit. However, there was a period where members of parliament blocked May’s deals… as unsatisfactory, No-deal is less satisfactory. So you are playing Devil’s Advocate. The reality is that although the political machinery didn’t work to vote out – block the Brexit supporting Parties, the majority of the UK electorate are against Brexit today.
Likewise, you can argue that it was a UK referendum, or we can agree that it wasn’t democratic because it failed to take account of the equal member of this Union.
Democracy is about what the majority want, not what the few have engineered through politically sophisticated manipulation.
The SNP are absolutely correct to try to prevent No Deal Brexit by the party and leader who have been the traditional enemies of Scotland for decades.
If No Deal happens it would be mere weeks or days before this Tory party turned their success into actions to block Holyrood
Best we give these guys a bloody nose if possible. No deal might happen or not, Brexit will probably happen. But better to be seeking independence on the right side of democracy rather than waiting until Johnson’s team are confident to rip our current powers away.
Robert Peffers @ 3.28pm
Riddle me this…when is the right time?
In my opinion, there is never a perfect time for action. You take your chances when there’s enough groundswell behind you and work damned hard to carry along and convert the extra numbers you need in a campaign.
Look what John Maclean started…
Look what Rosa Parks started…
Look what Ghandi started…
Decisive political and civil action can motivate a movement for change. The YES movement is hanging in suspended motion at the moment – we need the injection of the SNP to fire up the starting gun for independence. The SNP need to get their act together NOW.
“It was based on the belief in March 2017 that by Autumn 2018 the terms of Brexit would be known and that the UK would leave on 29th March 2019 and by which time Scotland could have had a second referendum.”
I don’t think you understood the question. What does “too late” mean?
Interesting comment btl over on Craig Murrays blog, re the legal action ongoing to prevent BJ prorogueing WM Parl.
It stated they could legally challenge the PM’s request to Betty to do so,
But there is no legal mechanism to challenge Betty once she’s agreed to it.
Anyone know if this is correct? Given that the Crown has full Sovereignty over Westminster, it seems likely.
Oh dear.
So, the options for stopping/altering a No Deal Brexit are:
Cancel A50 (which needs WM to sit, opposition members to get hold of the schedule and a majority of MP’s to vote for it)
Win a VoNC and form a NGU. With Corbyn as leader. Ha.
Win a VoNC and if unable to form a NGU – a GE gets called. (Must be called before 13/9/19 or else the GE day of voting falls after 31/10/19 Brexit Day).
Persuade the Gov to call a People’s Vote for another Brexit Referendum. (Needs a minimum of 28 days + 14 days admin to set up – is legal requirement). See GE above for last possible day to call same.
If they can close down Westminster, does anyone seriously doubt they are going to close down Holyrood. The only thing stopping them at present is EU membership.
Food Shortages, medicine shortages, Scots police to N Ireland,closing Holyrood etc etc. are all speculations.justifiable concerns, but speculations.conspiracy theories if you prefer.
What is a certainty is that unless the SNP moves asap we Scots will no longer be EU citizens.I mark that down as a serious democratic loss.
Scotland was denied any involvement in the Withdrawal Agreement negotiations and so following Brexit I speculate that Scotland will have no say in the trade negotiations with the USA, and others. I’d bet on that as a certainty, not a speculation. And another serious loss.
The prorogue petition.
Should we be signing it?
We have exhaustively tried to show England the error of their ways.
Enough is enough.
Let Bojo’s actions be a warning of how he will walk all over
Democracy and Scotland.
I sign up for most things but England deserves all it’s about to get!
Besides ‘No Deal’ Brexit was ‘One in a Million’ as I recall! And the Mandarins at Whitehall are leaking everything because no one thinks ‘No Deal’ is a proper solution.
Big Jock says:
28 August, 2019 at 3:01 pm
“However while Scotland remains in the UK , they can drag the whole of the UK out of Europe”
Only if we allow them to. I am getting increasingly frustrated with the fact that no more has been done to drag this bunch of crooks into an international court. I am frustrated that this inferior complex and acceptance that Scotland is the pauper partner in the union of equals and the one that always gets told to do by the other what to do is not crushed to the ground for once and for all.
“We can bleat all we like about democracy and articles of Union etc”
Do you think it would be better then to just shut up and accept the shit we are being fed by a bunch of England MPs who do not hold mandate from our country to govern and that do not represent us and their useful, spineless idiots? Sorry, but I refuse to budge.
“However while we remain under Westminster’s yolk. They are free to do as they please”
No they most certainly are not. They “are free” to do as they please if we let them. Legitimacy for the kind of actions they are doing cannot be bought in a one pound store. The only reason they are getting away with what they are doing is because we let them to.
“That is why so many people like me are frustrated by the SNP trying to change the UK”
I am sure you are not as short sighted as that. The SNP is not trying to “change the UK”. Far from it. The SNP is trying to frustrate the desperate attempts of the tory party to do the dirty work for foreign interests and VIP taxdodgers and from where I am standing that is the best strategy. There is no better defence than a good attack and hitting right at the core of brexit and the prospect of all those VIP taxdodgers and tax havens having to suck up the EU tax avoidance laws is certainly as good attack as you can get. What the SNP is doing, and succeeding from where I am standing is to force those dark hands that are moving the strings of the buffoon and the tory party to choose between the UK or Brexit. It is clear that those dark hands are not only choosing brexit, but actually they are so desperate for brexit that in making that choice they are destroying the UK from inside out. If you take a look at the Treaty of Union, the only symbol of adhesion between the 2 kingdoms is the common parliament: that is the Union’s reason to be. You attack that parliament you attack that union. You undermine that parliament, you undermine the union. You suspend that parliament, you suspend that union. That is what the dark hands moving the strings of the buffoon are doing.
“They should devote their resources to leaving the UK”
Leaving the UK? What do you mean? I think what you mean is “dissolving” the UK. Scotland cannot “leave” the UK. Scotland can leave the partnership of equals it has with the Kingdom of England. But if that happens, the “UK” ceases to exist.
“That is the only avenue where power resides”
Sorry, but I disagree. The power resides on the people of Scotland. Each person in Scotland is a new avenue.
I’d also hazard a guess that a ‘No Deal’ gives overnight absolution for Westminster to do whatever they want to Scotland. Whereas in a proper planned Brexit there would be time for Indy2 and some reasonable democratic process.
Im finding it quite amusing watching some indy supporting Scots support some sort of cancellation of Brexit.
Its just as amusing as watching the Brexiteer types tell Scotland the very same things they accuse the EU of lying about when it comes to the UK as a whole.
‘Lets cancel Brexit. Its the democratic thing to do.’
I think some mirrors need looking into.
The thing that gets me is – if the English people hadnt won the Leave side of the vote like they did, and hung onto their win like they did, then where would the argument for another indy referendum be?
If Scottish Europhiles had their way there wouldn’t be any opportunity at all.
You cant have it all folks. With risk comes opportunity.
If the British government could simply cancel Brexit with no heed payed to the outcome of the referendum then good luck getting Scottish independence by peaceful means 🙂
In-D-Car Gordon Ross 28.8.19 – Boris to suspend Parliament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYUr4vKU4Qw
In-D-Car Gordon Ross 28.8.19 pt2 – When a leader, elected not by voters shuts down Parliament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPH7RMK2TOw
So here we are NICOLA STURGEON, FIRST MINISTER OF SCOTLAND. Act now, or forever be consigned to the dustbin of history.
Look at what is happening. FFS, would you wake up, SNP. Now TODAY PLEASE, FFS.
Stand up for Scotland, or shut the f*** up, and suck it up.
It MUST be now. Assert Scotland’s democratic rights. Scotland does not want brexit, in any flavour. stand up for Scotland. Or move aside and let somebody else who will.
As regards Stu’s article, parts I agree with, parts I do not. The Uk is a parliamentary democracy, not a dictatorship. Parliament instructs the executive, NOT the other way around.
But, overall Scotland needs out of this, and the Scottish Government MUST act. The time for dithering, and considering options, or waiting for the right time, or to see what happens with brexit, is over. No more time. Get on with it.
Or, as some above seem to advocate, we could just sit on our hands, watch the economy go down the toilet, watch as Scottish jobs go, watch as food and medicine shortages develop, watch as Scots have their EU citizenship forcibly stripped from them, all the while saying..’oh, tut, tut, any more and Scotland might call a referendum’. Jeezo, wake up people. This is real, the Uk is throwing itself off a cliff.
Do something, or forever, shut the f*** up about it.
But, no, we must await just the right time. Any year now, for sure, probably, maybe, we’ll see…let’s have a good long think about it…
@JOe
Glad you are amused. But the majority of Scotland voted remain. Why wouldn’t an Indy supporter feel that it was right to resist a ‘No Deal’ Brexit, especially when it would be an obvious win for Johnson and crew.
And the only mirrors that need looking into are the people who think it is right to drag Scotland out, or to bribe the DUP (against the GFA to remain impartial) Thats an attack on democracy. Maybe you think its okay, because it’s the Tories that are trying to pevert the outcome?
And much rather we went to GE and fought against a Johnson Farage alignment, than allowed Johnson to win today.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
I don’t think you understood the question. What does “too late” mean?
I’ve told you what I thought it meant to Nicola Sturgeon in that “too late” meant we were already out of the EU whereas she believed at the time that Brexit would be agreed by the Autumn and there would be six months before we left.
Maybe you ask Nicola Sturgeon what she actually meant at the time she did the speech if you want a definitive answer. All I can give is my interpretation of what she meant and maybe that’s completely wrong, maybe it’s right. Who’s to say?
What did you think “too late” meant?
The tory conference is unlikely to be all sweetness and light – in fact I’m sure sure that it will be very lively.
Scottish BritNats all in hiding?
They all seem content we go over the cliff together. No dissent.
Did Davidson ever return from maternity leave?
And what of all those who damned Scotland by supporting BetterTogether in 2014? Darling, Lamont, Rowling? None of them got anything to say for the mess they have got us into?
Oh, and lizzie sax coburg has just shown what an utter waste of money her and her family of misfits is. They and the unelected Dictator Boris Johnson should be run out of the country.
Defending what Johnson is doing, as legitimate, is indefensible.
A fable – How to boil a frog.
Pour water (cool, probably at room temperature) in a container and put a frog in it. Now heat the container slowly so that water’s temperature gradually starts heating up. As temperature rises, the frog initially feels discomfort but instead of jumping out it adjusts to it. Further increase in temperature again leads to discomfort, but frog again adjusts. This adjustment after adjustment leads to a point where the condition (temperature) becomes unbearable and frog dies before it can jump out.
Of course, metaphors are imperfect, but they at least are succinct.
“Stand up for Scotland, or shut the f*** up, and suck it up.”
Look at the state of that and you claim to support Independence. Wah! Wah! Wah! It’s meh bah and em no playing!!!
Robert Louis you’re a loser, it’s writ large in every post you make. C’mon, you have the stage, if the SNP “shut the f*** up” what alternatives do you propose?
I like what Peter Bell is saying
The only way to avoid Scotland’s democratic institutions being dismantled is for the Scottish Parliament to assert its primacy on the basis of its exclusive democratic legitimacy. The Scottish Government must propose that the Scottish Parliament declare itself the sole voice of Scotland’s people and agent of their democratic will. It will then be for the people of Scotland to vote on whether to #DissolveTheUnion in order that Scotland should should be able to choose and follow its own path.
The Scottish Parliament is meeting next week. The Scottish government needs to accelerate the referendum legislation approval process.
As the Rev says Scotland’s politicians now need to accept the UK’s choice and devote all of their efforts to assembling the lifeboats and giving their country the chance that British voters have already had and spurned.,/I>
” A few weeks ago during the Tory leadership contest, candidate Matt Hancock invoked the deaths of the soldiers in WWII and said that proroguing parliament would suspend our parliamentary democracy and goes against everything those soldiers fought and died for. “And I will not have it!” He finished.
So will Boris Johnson’s new Health Secretary be standing down in solidarity with the WWII heroes he invoked a few weeks ago, OR will he do as Tories do and forget he ever pretended to give a shit about democracy, instead prioritizing himself and his £141,000 a year Minister’s salary”?
Someone clearly needs to be doorstopped……………suggested Q ” Does he, STILL believe what he said in his leadership campaign re proroguing parliament ?
A Like f**k he does
Meanwhile a few Scottish Tory MP’s seem to think this is a right laugh and have a wee joke about it on Twitter :
Andrew Bowie ” Hope that the Members of the Privy Council visiting Balmoral today enjoy their day in the most beautiful constituency in the UK….followed by a SMIRKING emoji
Paul Masterton ” It’s an absolute disgrace to involve the Queen. So I’ve written to her demanding she meet me at a time + location of my choosing (Greggs on Barrhead Main Street in 45minutes) to demand she does something different to what she’s been discgracefully demanded to do by the other guy” ( includes his mistakes)
What a pair of cards they are….wow glad a lot of proud scots decided 2017 ( post Brexit vote ) was THE best time to elect some MORE Scottish Tory MP’s….imagine the disaster for Scotland if we had elected more SNP MP’s instead…phew we were lucky were we not…think how much worse it all could have been…and those Scottish Labour MP’s like Gaffney…what an impact he has made …good call….wow sometimes luck and timing is on your side…….said f***ing no one !
BBC Scotland giving Union Jacket barrck room lawyer Ian Murray main credit for the Court of session case to stop the suspension of democracy by Boris when Joanna Cherry QC was the leading light in using the Scottish Courts
I;m pretty sure that it is clear from a number of posts today that there are those who scream from the rooftops about the SNP doing nothing and how useless Nicola Sturgeon is.
This is to be expected as it’s the only thing the government can do in order to undermine the main threat to the UK. That is to attack the SNP and especially its leader Nicola Sturgeon. Does anyone still remember the constant SNP Bad? Doesn’t seem to be spoken of much now on Wings.
The enemy of Unionism are the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon, so not really surprising that this would be the main focus of their attack is it?
Bojo here Betty.
I’m sending Lord Snooty up to your Shooting
Estate with a quill to get your signature on a document
That will ensure Andy Boy will face no further questions
About young American girls and his pervert pals over there.
One is the one that one wants at the foot of the page,
Oh and a few Knighthoods for the Labour lackeys I’ve used lately!
Robert Louis @ 4.20
Oh Auld Lizzie Windsor is getting her payment in kind for screwing the ordinary people one again.
All this happening today is keeping another one of her family who make pals with pedos off the News.. Her, Quid Pro Quo…neatly done..
There’s calls from the US for Andrew to go answer some questions and the poor things think thats actually going to be allowed to happen…. No mention here though,all we get is how unfair it is on the Queen to draw her in to this..
Then what is she for? is never asked,no one is exploring her contract with the People’s of Scotland either!
I believe that there’s terms and conditions for the Monarch of Scotland to keep their position!
Cirsium – Agree
Only thing is. The SP should be recalled tomorrow. There is no time to waste hear. Drag the unionist MSPS back to parliament and make them face what they have done to Scotland.
Here doh!!
Joanna Cherry tweets she’s asked the Scottish Court for a hearing, and expects to be heard this week.
Are you sure you’re fighting the right case Joanna? A few more days to stop Mad Boris? Or a Constitutional Test Case to bring Westminster’s colonial Brexit of Scotland crashing to the ground and leave the whole damned Union discredited and untenable?
How about a wee poll on that option?
Joe says:
28 August, 2019 at 4:10 pm
“Im finding it quite amusing watching some indy supporting Scots support some sort of cancellation of Brexit”
And why is that? Now that the blond buffoon down south was told to overrule democracy to please VIP taxdodgers, hedge funds, taxhavens and american corporations, and the monarch gladly sacrificed “her” parliament for the avoidance of that thorn on the side in the form of EU tax avoidance regulations, do you think that democracy has become suddenly so passe that is not longer fashionable?
Well, here is some news for you, democracy is fashionable, fascism and absolutism by the elite is not. Scotland never voted for Brexit, never gave consent for brexit and never actually asked for brexit in the first place. Scotland is not the Kingdom of England’s property but an equal partner in a bipartite union of equals, therefore, considering that the pro independence supporters want Scotland to be governed by its people and the decisions of where Scotland should go taken by the people of Scotland, what would be amusing here is to expect that pro independence supporters will borrow the emergency tory democracy bulldozer the blond menace has used to give the monarch a ride, any time soon to silence the 62% that voted in Scotland to protect Scotland’s EU membership and EU citizenship rights.
“If the British government could simply cancel Brexit with no heed payed to the outcome of the referendum then good luck getting Scottish independence by peaceful means”
a) There is nothing “british” about the current government. It is England’s government. That cabinet does not have a single senior minister holding one of Scotland’s seats. That government is acting directly against Scotland’s interests and overruling Scotland’s expressed democratic will while attempting to enforce by stealth the Kingdom of England’s will. That is not the “british” government. That is England’s government.
b)The UK gov can cancel brexit at any time of its choosing. It can revoke A50 and it can declare it null because it was triggered without the consent of Scotland so it was not triggered “on behalf of the UK” but rather on behalf of the Kingdom of England. From where I am standing that may well be unconstitutional and therefore invalidates one of the rules of A50 itself. If they don’t want to do that, they simply had to acknowledge that the referendum was advisory and as there is no consensus among the UK nations, the only democratic thing to do is to stop brexit.
c) If all what they fear is losing their seats, they can grow the balls to call a referendum in the Kingdom of England, to choose between dissolving the UK to leave the EU or to remain in the EU to protect the UK.
What of the two options do you think all those vested foreign interests, all those neocons, all those tax havens, the Psyops and all those VIP taxdodgers behind brexit will support with buckets of cash?
To dissolve the UK to escape EU laws and standards.
c) is in fact the fastest, safest, more peaceful and more certain way to achieve Scotland’s independence. And I believe this is the route the SNP is currently pushing for. The problem is those VIP taxdodgers, foreign interests, neocons and taxhavens are not convinced that the kingdom of England will give priority to brexit over the UK and they are so desperate to avoid those EU regulations and standards that they are not even wanting to risk the people of England voting to preserve the UK, hence bulldozing democracy, totally undermining the UK parliament and with that the union to force a no deal brexit.
Here is the email from Nicola from this morning
I thought to reproduce it here. Members will have got it but the several spooks on Wings probably have not. So here it is.
Nicola wants it spread on facebook and twitter so she won’t mind it here on Wings:-
More nonsense from Cole-Hamilton in Edinburgh Evening News . Another blinkered British Nationalist who thinks Scots Gov would be as stupid as his Tory chums
Threpnr @ 3.07pm
I know you’re not an idiot but if you want me to spell it out here is the terms of the Brexit deal written in idiot form by the EU for us plebs:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/the_withdrawal_agreement_explained.pdf
I used to read your posts with interest and admire your opinion; but are your seriously saying that Boris might get a deal with no backstop? FFS I don’t know what unicorn you’re hanging onto with that! Hopefully it’s a joke and I’m just not seeing the humour!
@Thepnr
Please just stop this.
People who want the SNP to act are not unionists.
Frustration at the way the SNP are reacting to events does not mean you are a unionist.
Implying that criticism of the SNP = unionism is just plain wrong and you and the others who constantly repeat this have got to stop. The SNP are our elected representatives, they have a mandate to act on our behalf and that is why we want them to do something.
The SNP are in Government here. That is why we are criticising, to assume other motives is tedious and frankly ridiculous and the constant hiding behind this line of argument does you no favours.
We want the same thing – Independence – we disagree that the SNP are doing all they can at the present time. SNP members should have an advantage over the rest of us but they cannot tell us anything either. We have SNP politicians immersed in the UK Parliament’s machinations. To some that seems a waste of time and energy when Johnston will get his way.
So please, give it a rest.
The patience being recommended by myself and others above — it’s only for the next few weeks.
There is no way independence is going to be achieved in the next two months. Practically it’s impossible, and there is just no chance that Nicola Sturgeon is going to go for full-blown indy in that timeframe. People can call for it all they want, and they’re perfectly entitled to do so on a forum like this. In fact it’s healthy that the Wings threads are so impatient with the SNP, because they’re a constant reminder that people’s patience is running out.
Nevertheless it simply isn’t realistic to believe we’ll be independent by November. So the wisest approach IMO is to wait just a few more weeks until we know:
1. If there’s going to be a GE and when
2. How much the SNP will emphasise indy in that campaign, and
3. If Brexit’s going to happen, and if so what form it will take.
Making any dramatic moves in the absence of that information just doesn’t seem very wise. (And remember this is just another opinion — I make no claim to expertise on any of it).
If Yes were static or worse in the polls, there would be no need to say any of this. But the fact is, we’ve gained 9% in just over nine months. The heart of the matter is winning over Nos and we’re doing superbly. Imagine the Democratic Party gaining 1% a month over President Rapey.
And if in the GE the SNP are as mealy-mouthed about indy as in 2017, then I’ll be joining in the criticism here. Same if in November we’re still being asked to bide our time.
TLDR: Patience is necessary IMO, but just for the next few weeks.
@Bill Hume. says: 28 August, 2019 at 3:29 pm:
” … Let’s get the Indy bandwagon rolling and less dissent in the ranks please.”
Which ranks are those, bill? The Indy ranks or the 77th Brigade?
Ken MacIntosh can’t spell *prorogue* so our Parliament will stay open
It’s a funny word prorogue isn’t it because the definition of the word doesn’t really match the sound of it does it
We all think of a *rogue* as a bad person or at least a bit of a nefarious character, and *pro* meaning for something, in favour of
So when you put it together Pro Rogue, it really sounds more like *In favour of a nefarious character or bad person* and that definition sounds more fitting to the person Boris Johnson actually is
England is *Prorogue*, I wonder if they’re aware of that
@Scozzie
You flatter me. But that’s beside the point which is THAT THE TERMS OF BREXIT ARE NOT YET KNOWN!
I’m sure even you can agree with that.
Sinky says:
28 August, 2019 at 4:36 pm
“BBC Scotland giving Union Jacket barrck room lawyer Ian Murray main credit for the Court of session case to stop the suspension of democracy by Boris when Joanna Cherry QC was the leading light in using the Scottish Courts”
Exactly Sinky…heard it on various new channels today..also the ‘I’ newspaper has headline on remain alliance to stop NO Deal with picture of Corbyn and Swinson…ONLY.
See this is what I said earlier..SNP will get NO CREDIT for either trying to STOP or in trying to help the UKOK remainers from Brexit itself or a NO Deal Brexit from happening…the kudos will always be bestowed upon a Unionist….Corbyn sat on his arse for three years with his MP’s throwing out mixed messages…and Swinson is, as expected, riding on the crest of the Remain wave ……no one in the Unionist side will ever allow the SNP to be given the major role in this so called alliance…they will be relegated to supporting act only.
Buuuuuuuuuut…looks as if Brexit IS going to happen..AND it’s looking like a NO DEAL one…wonder how long the SNP will be given ‘CREDIT’ for that happening by our Unionist friends…SOME have started already….looks to Gordon Brown and some of his Tory friends.
@ Robert Peffers
So basically Nicola Sturgeon is saying:
‘If you try to leave the EU with no deal we will attempt to subvert the result of the referendum and if that fails we will break up the UK!’
Why not:
‘Do what you have a mandate for and we will go ahead and push for Scottish independence’?
The reason: the SNP are more EU nationalist than Scottish nationalist at this point.
Come on folks. Drop the biases. Look with your eyes. Think with your head.
There’s calls for the Scottish Parliament to recall immediately, instead of next week’s 2/9/19.
Actually I think it will be good for it to come back next week – given the huge repercussions this decision will have, and the fact that it is in England means BBC Shortbread will not be able to keep it off the airwaves, give it time to reverberate.
Once recalled though, they must call an emergency debate.
I hope to goodness NI chooses to have a Referendum on unity, rather than ‘other’ options.
I think its a good sign All Union Jack is hiding. The normal for these Tory Brass Necks is to talk bollocks in the face of their outrageous behaviour, if he can’t face doing that…
Honestly Stuart, I haven’t been on the board for years, but feel compelled to sign in just to say how much of a fantastic critical writer you are.
Like it or not, as you say, it couldn’t be clearer.
Roll on Independence.
@SilverDarling
A simple challenge to you, show me where in any post I implied that “criticism of the SNP = unionism”.
Do you deny that the main focus of the Unionist attack on Independence MUST be the SNP and in particular Nicola Sturgeon?
Just so it’s clear, just why have you decided that criticising the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon is a good tactic towards winning Independence. I’d appreciate some clarity here because it has me stumped.
Please give your criticism of the FM a rest hahahaha
The people are sovereign
Has the lady in balmoral understood that?
Scots Parliament on our behalf declare it now. Call the Scots Parliament back. This is a crisis created by the Tories at Westminster
@Maria F
Thanks for that lengthy reply.
Unfortunately I dont have a long one for you because it boils down to this:
1 – Scottish people voted to remain in the UK at our indy ref. Smart nationalists were almost in tears of frustration trying to tell people – ‘If you give up this chance we will suffer. By saying No to independence we are saying Yes to rule from Westminster’. We were correct.
2 – Britain as a whole voted to leave the EU. Britain staying in the EU because Scotland voted to stay is as ridiculous as Scotland being forced to stay in the Union after a successful referendum because most people in Shetland are Unionists.
I am probably at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum as the author of this article. I also think he is very weak economically. However this site is so successful because his analysis of politics and balance on the subject of politics is probably without peer in the UK. Everything he has written here is correct, even if it might be hard to swallow for some.
So what do we do? We stop whining and take the opportunity at hand.
What amuses me is when Scottish nationalists and Brexiteers say the same things about each other.
@Joe
If the EU believe that Northern Ireland can remain in the Single Market and Customs Union, hence the backstop that seem to be causing so many problems for the Tories.
Then why should it be ridiculous to believe that Scotland who voted 62% remain to keep their EU citizenship should be able to have the same deal offered by the EU to Northern Ireland?
Threpnr @ 4.58pm
Oh FFS the terms of Brexit WA is known; it’s written in the EU document to which they even made the idiot proof version for us plebs which I linked to.
It’s up to the UK whether to accept it or not. If the UK don’t accept it it’s then no deal. It’s not for the UK prerogative to decide a different deal!
I’m baffled by your thinking that we don’t know them terms of Brexit????
Daisy@5:02…
“I hope to goodness NI chooses to have a Referendum on unity, rather than ‘other’ options.”
NOT BEFORE SCOTLAND IS INDEPENDENT !
If a X-Border poll produces a United Ireland, you can guarantee that all the mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, Demented Ulster Puritan-voting ‘charmers’ will jump on the first boat to Cairnryan, and there’s plenty in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Greater Glasgow who would welcome them with open arms.
Yoon ‘refugees’ from British Ulster rabble-rousing here?
No Thanks!
If the SNP win Shetland, the SNP (plus the former SNP MSP who is now an independent) would have the same number of seats as all the opposition combined.
The Presiding Officer might stand down to become a Labour MSP.
That would enable the pro-independence parties to nominate one of their own for this post.
Perhaps suit a Green MSP who is not standing in the next Scottish Parliamentary election?
A pro-independence Presiding Officer is more likely to rule the Referendum Bill is within the competence of the Scottish Parliament than the current incumbent whose ruling on the EU Continuity Act delayed its implementation, leading to it being superceded by the EU Withdrawal Act.
While a referendum looks likely I am undecided as to whether the outcome will be independence.
Gordon Brown and his fervour for federalism should not be dismissed as the ravings of a madman.
Hope the SNP bide their time.
Joe @ 5.13
Well while yer over there being all amused Joe..
Mibbi you would like to explain where the Treaty arrangement between Shetland and the Holyrood Parliament is ?
There goes Ruth….;)
Another one bites the dust as Ken500 might say. From Rev’s twitter.
Ruth Davidson set to QUIT as Scottish Tory leader due to ‘pressures of motherhood’ and because she’s ‘at odds’ with Prime Minister Boris Johnson
http://archive.fo/QwqwS
If Corbyn/Lab)becomes PM/Gov, Scotland might get a shot at another IndyRef. They’ll have to win a GE first. And then drag out consent as long as they could. Might not consent for years.
If I had 50 … unfortunately I don’t have access to rev’s copious reserves ;D
ps – your researchers deserve a pay rise 😀
BREAKING NEWS
Colonel Yadaftie to resign as Tory Leader in Scotland!
The writing is on the wall for Labour in Scotland and now the writing is on the wall for the Tories in Scotland.
Davidson is just the first to fall, Richardo Leotard will be next. Things can only get better… Now who said that again 🙂
As predicted Ruth Davidson leaving the sinking ship. About time Tories and Labour parties in Scotland realise they have zero influence on their British Nationalist parties
@Scozzie
Had my fill of you today. Fuck off and stop wasting my time 🙂
“JWT @0528 pm “ she’s a “ busted flush “ anyway now as she didn’t back her London “ boss”. Consequently no longer required by “ her” party as “ branch manager”
@The PNR
Scotland is being used as leverage.
The EU wants the UK as a whole more than Scotland on its own. It will take the latter but it will use Scotland as much as possible to get the former through the SNP.
Ruth Davidson quitting as leader. The Tories jumping the sinking ship. How many more will go. GE the Tories will be toast,
Join the SNP. Donate, campaign. Everyone should do what they can. Do not leave it to someone else. Support for the SNP/Independence still increasing,
.
… and Stuart Campbell scores again 🙂
Journalistic goal firmly in the back of the net.
With all the howling on MSM today, Stuart Campbell has nailed many myths in this one article.
Beautifully crafted piece of writing.
Crucially though, he is right on the money. England wants to leave the EU and Scotland wants to leave the UK.
LET’S BE NORMAL
Let Scotland DO EXACTLY THAT. Leave the UK.
I don’t think there is anything happening now that hasn’t already been put before Westminster or proposed previously by the SNP. So question is, why now. Why is Corbyn now willing to join forces when he so blatantly ignored or rebuffed previous proposals. In my opinion it is because we are beyond the point of no return, there is no stopping Brexit and the current flurry of activity is no more than window dressing on the very thin veneer of what passes for democracy in the UK. Three and half years and the UK is at the gates of corporate hell.
RT for North Tory Britain’s catamite in chief vacancy?
Pretty Please 😉
@ Robert Knight
Well I hadn’t thought of it in that way, though admittedly its a concern.
I just didn’t want people and children and animals being blown to smithereens like they were in the 70’s and 80’s when I was growing up, not to mention what a big fat excuse that would give the British Establishment to enforce State of Emergency.
As for the Knuckle Draggers – it is a concern, but at the same time, its not so easy to move homes, family, jobs and lives lock, stock and barra, especially when lots of other ‘refugees’ are doing it at the same time. So, perhaps, it wouldn’t be as big a problem as it might first appear.
On the plus side, it would bring the eyes of the world, and independent election assessors onto ‘british’ soil, good prep for them doing the same for Scotland, maybe.
Another one gone, another one down, another one hits the dust.
.
P.S. Stuart that is a magnificent wee fox.
Nae wonder you have 300 tins of dug food in the kitchen cupboards.
One question?
Are you buying your fox food from Kelvin Vague the well known purveyor of Canine Cibus and Vulpes Vulpes Victuals.
.
Ruth Davidson going … perfect timing just before the Shetland by-election where the Tory is standing under the Ruth Davidson Party 🙂
Has Ruth Davidson got the balls to do it?
The question is
Will Davidson be resigning her directly won seat?
And creating another Holyrood byelection
So the (t)Ruthless one is reconsidering her position. Best news we’ve had in years, but has Ruth Davidson got the balls to do it?
Brian Taylor on the radio saying the he thinks she’s going.
Over to Swinson then?
The House of cards will come tumbling down. 30 Tories do not support (a no deal) Brexit. The total Tory shambles and mess. The state of it. Independence will come out of it.
@mike cassidy
Yes.
Ruth Davidson apparently now considering her position (again) and will make a statement tomorrow.
This however, will only be confirmed by the vision of the main Holyrood door hitting her on the erse on the way oot!
Jings!
You go to make a chicken salad and get more popcorn and then Ruthie no more says Auntie wie a kilt.
Meg
Brian effectively just made our case.
Politics, and the body politic are incompatible between up here, and down there, and Truthie’s going is that writ large.
SNP “secret plans” / “Nicola has clearly stated her plans”.
I’ve basically stopped listening to all this mince: The best laid plans o’ mice an men gang aft a gley anyway.
Boris Johnson is pulling the strings and the SNP are dancing to the UK’s tune.
At the end of the day: If I get the chance to vote YES, I’ll vote YES. I’ll keep hoping the UK Govt will continue to make indy look the more attractive option, despite the best efforts of the SNP to stop them.
If the SNP ever stand directly for independence /sovereignty, I’ll gladly vote SNP.
If there’s a General Election and the SNP are standing for anything less than that, that’s up to them. Good luck to them.
I’m sure I’ll find something better to do instead of wasting time voting for SNP “Save Britain” MPs.
Only wee Willie left to go now.
@Colin Alexander
Here’s a hanky, you need to blow your nose son. Snotters showing.
@Scozzie says:28 August, 2019 at 3:59 pm:
” … The YES movement is hanging in suspended motion at the moment – we need the injection of the SNP to fire up the starting gun for independence. The SNP need to get their act together NOW.”
Oh! Stop blethering pish. Some time ago I read on the SNP website a statement by Nicola Sturgeon actually firing the starting pistol.
I immediately cut and pasted the message and included the link to the webpage. I needn’t have bothered for all the effect it had and here right now are you complaining the SNP should get their finger out and fire the starting pistol.
Now if memory has not deceived me that message was on the same page where Nicola started her petition for people to support that move and it was also a slow moving signing just beginning to pick up again now.
I’ve also, on this thread just posted an email from Nicola about todays events. Are you lot expecting these messages from Nicola and/or the SNP to be featured in the Scotsman, Daily Wrecker and on good old BBC Scotland? If so you are going to be disappointed.
There is also a series of comedy video clips. One features a guy sleeping. His alarm goes off and he gets up mand starts breakfast when there is a knock on the door. He opens the door and Nicola stands there telling him to get his jacket – it’s time.
Here:-
https://www.yes.scot/
What bloody more do you guys need?
There is a petition needing more signatures, a video telling you the starting pistol has been fired and adverts telling you to get your jacket on for its time.
Sigh! Bibbies the SNP should try dropping you a few hints?
Oh! Wait a minute – Nicola and the SNP have been doing that for many weeks now. Perhaps she should have used a sledge hammer instead.
Now you know why the anti-FM/SG/SNP brigade here on Wings are being accused of being spooks and sleepers or downright Westminster supporting numpties. All these SNP notices and video clips have been published here on Wings with the only effort required for Wingers to make to get the messages is to click upon the links and read or watch the messages yet even today there are moaners claiming the SNP are doing nothing.
The SNP are not just the MEPs, MPs, MSPs and councillors they are the members and the yes supporters. The elected to office members have more than enough to do and it is the foot soldiers that are being asked to mobilise. Sitting on your arses moaning that Nicola and, “The SNP”, need to get their fingers out is daft. The gun was fired some weeks ago. As the website video clip says – It’s time – get YOUR JACKET ON. Oh! And get that petition signed and get others to sign it. By the way I believe that if you sign it you will get individual emails from Nicola to keep you informed and telling you what is needed.
Dr Jim,
apparently Charlie boy wants his regnal name to be King George the 275th or whatever number they are on now.
Thepnr @ 13:45,
My principal emphasis from that (perhaps historical) speech of Nicola’s is differenct from yours, and always has been:
Which does mean, does it not, that if Brexit does get fixed for this coming October, next year really won’t cut the mustard, will it?
We’re not quite there yet, granted, since there are some legal and parliamentary manoevres still to come, but the opportunities have just narrowed significantly, and are increasingly closing down. We can’t wait until the very brink of Halloween before we can act “in a timely way”, can we?
And let’s face it, the “terms for Brexit”, whether “deal” or “crashout”, won’t be known in full for years, maybe even decades.
So Ruth quitting ?…..was she about to be PUSHED….so SHE, the invisible woman (when times are hard…for the Tories), SHE will hog the headlines tonight pushing the REAL news to the back….wait for tomorrow on GMB TV et al ‘ So sad ..the Person who should have been elected as OUR PM’….is she… eventually…after a respectable time has lapsed… going to join Keiza in yon Think Tank…the games up..so carping from the sidelines it is……
Who cares….whose the next Tory branch office manager…who cares…Alan Partridge Gif with shrugging shoulders seems relevant….
Meanwhile what about Scotland….really really care about that…may be selfish but I do LIVE here so kinda IMPORTANT and MORE relevant than a leader resigning…a leader of a party who has done her utmost to ensure Scotland as f***ed as rest of UKOK…. but in Brexit land priorities eh ……….
Hey STV and BBC Rep Scotland….any chance you could headline something that is remotely to do with how Scotland is being shafted post 2014….or are you both too busy compiling a documentary on the political life and times of Ruth …who after all was a media construct…. effective only in your bubble and the Unionist one….
Annie Wells for new branch manager…sign the petition
Me going full metal Manic here…
OMG….she better no be going to fight for an English Tory seat…or worse….HOL’s…oh my surely no….cue ANGRY Gif
Have I missed something, is there another ‘think tank’ in Scotland looking for a failed politician to lead it? I’m sure a cushy role is about to appear somewhere.
@Robert J. Sutherland
I’m guessing you haven’t read the pdf you downloaded last night? In there are the answers you seek.
I despair of the SNP, instead of getting on with organising independence it is tying itself in utterly unnecessary knots and alienating female voters (those with two X chromosomes). I was talking to one today and she has no idea who to vote for because both the SNP and Greens are hot to trot for GRA except the SNP is a bit less hot than the ridiculous Greens.
I say that as a Green voter on the List. I don’t who to vote for either. Rev, it looks increasingly like your party may be sadly necessary but not for the reason you stated. It will be necessary to hoover up votes from people like that and me. I’m persuaded for the same reasons.
I didn’t vote SNP in the constituency last time for conscience reasons so not voting Green on the List is just another step. I had, just, an alternative in the constituency for a protest vote. But on the List? Rev we need a Wings party. The TRA’s may call us all TERFs even if we are not Trans Exclusionary just not rolling over and letting us be walked over by titanium high heels (I saw and loved Kinky Boots).
The British state is well on the way to leaving the EU, nationalist politicians need to get over their ‘trauma’ and employ their energies and skills furthering the cause they are supposed to advocate.
If they do not the ‘bumbling idiot’ in Downing street will make make mince meat of them, and rightly so.
This save the UK from Brexit politicking, this kicking the independence can down the road and promiscuous dangling of the referendum carrot has got to stop.
La commedia è finita!
If Ruthie is going – look (no surprise, there!) who’s supporting her.
Guardian @ 17.47
Responding to reports that Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson is set to quit following differences with Boris Johnson, the Scottish Labour MP Ian Murray said that her departure will be deeply felt by her party.
“She campaigned tirelessly for a Remain vote in the EU referendum, but the Tories under Boris Johnson have become a hard Brexit party, so it is not surprising that it has come to this,” he said.
So
If Davidson the serial election loser goes
They’ll be looking for a new leader.
That gives Murdo Fraser another chance to extend his ‘won feck all’ reign.
Just how big is the guy’s ego?
So Ruth the Mooths gone…
See Joe now that is amusing.. 🙂
Question is where is she going??
What an insult to the people of Scotland that JR mogg and cronies on Scottish soil ( Balmoral) seeking the suspension of a supposed “United Kingdom” Parliament , to deny the sovereign will of the Scottish people to remain in the EU . Scandalous ! Her maj should be reminded that the people of Scotland are “ sovereign “ NOT the Monarch !
Thepnr @ 17:57,
True that. =grin= Been busy, and lately also somewhat overtaken by “events”! (But I will. Promise!)
I wonder if Davidson’s resignation will match Mundell’s. A definite maybe at least.
According to STV Scottish news Ruth could be resigning because there is perhaps just not enough hours in the day to be leader of a party and parent….so now it would appear one cannot be a Leader of a political party if you have a child…Huh ?
God forbid they should just admit the game is up for her never ending rant about say No to a second Indy Ref….when really NOW is THE time when Independence for Scotland seems a logical and reasonable course of action to take.
Bojo has now put a nail in Ruth’s Unionist guff coffin…but like eh personal reasons okay ya… STV news think this may be the reason she might be reconsidering her position….yeh ok
Wow does that mean the Ruth Davidson candidate in Shetland has to stand down BEFORE he’s taken down tomorrow ?
OMG….OMG….does anyone have a padded cell available with an inbuilt sounds system that I could inhabit for …..the rest of my f***ing LIFE……..Lol
BREAKING: The Welsh Assembly is being recalled from summer recess, will sit on Thursday, September 5.
Last year was the time for Indyref2. This waiting is getting us nowhere. What were you thinking Nicola Sturgeon by delaying and delaying, I’ll never vote SNP again.
Oh wait, I’ve just heard Ruthie has resigned. Boris Johnson has cancelled democracy, support for Independence is on an upward trajectory. Can I take it all back, please Nicola I didn’t really mean it, sorry, sorry.
Daisy@5:38
I hear your concern, and likewise wince at the thought of the clock winding back to the days I recall when I first visited family who had moved to be with their partner in N.I. in the 80’s.
The same “family”, who I would describe as being some of the k-dragging, m-breathers, have spoken openly about the prospect of leaving and moving to Scotland in the event of a United Ireland – for no overwhelming love of Mother Britain, the English or indeed Scotland, but rather being shit scared that as “British Subjects” in a “foreign land”, they’d be treated in a manner in which they used to treat their fellow citizens who just happened to attend Chapel instead of Church on a Sunday and send their kids to schools named after Saints rather than places. Payback would be a proverbial ‘Bitch’ for them in such circumstances.
There are too many ugly, bigoted individuals here already, without their numbers being swelled by their kith and kin heading across the North Channel, suitcases in hand, demanding that the ‘British’ look after their own.
We need to ensure that British policy of divide and rule, created in India and perfected in Ulster, isn’t imported here, (any more than it already is), as a means of ensuring that Scotland is trapped in the Union. The spooks would resurrect the SNLA in a heartbeat if it gave them an excuse to Ulsterise politics in Scotland and put uniforms/weapons on our streets.
We must get out BEFORE any X-Border poll across the water.
Has Nicola been to Balmoral for her annual weekend yet?
Let’s not forget that Brexit is not the sole reason for Scottish independence,all the reasons prior to the European election are still valid, in fact they are more valid. The whole shambles once more just goes to show how utterly powerless Scottish MPs and the people of Scotland are to determine their own future. If Ruth resigns it just shows how impotent Scots Tories are when England’s Tories decide to take a different path. There’s only one way to change that. Labour, Lib Dem voters and even Tories take note.
Ding dong the witch is erm..resigning, yes the unionist STV are carrying the story on their programme, that Colonel Ruth is no longer the head of the branch office in Scotland.
As ever the unionist STV news are going with Ruth’s quitting as leader to spend more time with the family, she’s still protected by the media.
Well the coackroaches will be coming out of the woodwork, in the shape of Tomkins and Fraser, vying to be leader of a insignificant branch office in Scotland.
As for Ruth good riddance, is about as polite a thing I can say about her.
it sure as hell deflects and takes the heat off prince andrew and the sex crimes allegations
@Daisy Walker says: 28 August, 2019 at 4:03 pm:
” … Anyone know if this is correct? Given that the Crown has full Sovereignty over Westminster, it seems likely.”
The Crown hasn’t had full sovereignty over Westminster since 1688. Well even that isn’t 100% correct.
Until the English, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688, the English Rule of Law was, “The Divine Right of Kings”.
That, “Glorious Revolution”, was the rebellion of the English parliamentarians against the monarch of England, (who since 1603 was also the Scottish Monarch), but both kingdoms were still independent then. The Revolution saw the Parliament depose their rightful monarch but the two kingdoms being independent any ruling by the English parliament could not affect the Scottish situation.
Anyway, the English parliament offered the crown of England to Mary, (Stewart), of Orange but the English had by-passed many Roman Catholics who had better claims to the throne but sectarianism prevented them being invited to assume the English, Welsh and Irish crowns.
Mary at first refused the crowns as she did not want her husband, Billy, as her consort. The English parliament then offered the crowns to the couple as joint monarchs – William & Mary and that kicked off what England called, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, but as the two kingdoms were still independent the Scots Jacobites could not rebel against a monarch not their own.
Anyhow, to cut a long story shorter, as a proviso of offering the couple the crowns of England, Wales and Ireland the couple had to legally delegate their Divine Right of Kings , (a.k.a. Sovereignty), to the parliament of England. This is English law but not Scottish law.
So although the monarchs of England are legally sovereign they have to legally delegate that sovereignty to the Parliament of England and that raises some very interesting questions.
The first being that after The Treaty of Union was signed the parliament of England was in permeant recession and Westminster is not the continued parliament of England – so why did Westminster on 1 May 1707 just assume it hele sovereignty over Scotland as the new parliament on 1 May 1707 was not the continued parliament of England?
As it was not the continued parliament of England why has Westminster assumed it has overall sovereignty over the Unite4d Kingdom Parliament? Especially as under Scots law the people, not the crown or the parliament are legally sovereign?
So there is one or two for the courts to consider – how can Westminster claim sovereignty over the crown of England when Westminster is not the continued parliament of England and how can either the Westminster parliament or the Queen of Scots claim sovereignty over Scotland when the people of Scotland are legally sovereign?
Now you know why Westminster tries hard to keep the question of sovereignty out of the courts.
“Yes, yes, mmm, yes. I went to university for four years, did a post-graduate journalism course, worked my way up to being a political correspondent, and now as Ruth Davidson announces her resignation within hours of Johnson suspending parliament, I’m going to nod along sympathetically and tell the Scottish people that yes indeed, she’s genuinely doing it today because it’s when she realised motherhood’s just sooooo hard.”
Kings Queens Proroguers Rapscallions Demagogues is there no end to the fun and gossip we’re having about these people today
I really don’t know what anybody’s worried about, by Friday afternoon only the diehard nut jobs will not be screaming for Scottish Independence
We knew it was going to happen but we didn’t know it would happen with such flare and glamour laying it out quite clearly to anybody that if you live in Scotland and don’t intend to go down with the UK ship you’re in the right place because Independence is more than a dead cert now, it’s a positive stick on dead cert
How does the Labour branch in Scotland react to this, are they still going to dare to defend remaining in the UK or are they going to do the decent thing and throw up their hands and give up
I bet it’ll still be the first thing
Events, dear boy, events.
Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 18:31,
What a stunningly incredible coincidence!
Reminds me of that famous quote by Upton Sinclair:
Sorry for my incessant posts but helps me avoid self combustion.
@ Welsh Sion @ 5.59pm
“She campaigned tirelessly for a Remain vote in the EU referendum, but the Tories under Boris Johnson have become a hard Brexit party, so it is not surprising that it has come to this,” he said.
Hi Welsh Sion…please tell me Ian Murray did not actually say this….must have been lost in translation somehow.
Campaigned TIRELESSLY for REMAIN in EU Referendum…AND then what did she do AFTER the result Ian….is he on drugs ?
Well if he DID say this then I’ll do a wee Trump quote ” Fake News”…..the only f***ing thing she has campaigned tirelessly for was to keep Scotland in the Union and to STOP another Indy Ref……sorry but has Ian Murray’s brain been hacked ?….I know that he and Ruth are CLOSE colleagues and champion the same Unionist cause but does he think he is communicating to voters who have a piece of straw hanging from their mouths…and where their father is their brother…and who chew their baccy as opposed to smoking it ?…..she was PROMOTING BREXIT after the VOTE Ian…tirelessly…..hiding behind yon over used word DEMOCRACY….Mary mother of God….Red Tory right enough.
Perhaps I hallucinated your post Welsh Sion…if NOT…then that’s f***ing it …it’s transcendental meditation for me …another plane…here I come.
“female voters (those with two X chromosomes).”
what about the people with Klinefelter syndrome (KS). … also known as 47,XXY or XXY, is the set of symptoms that result from two or more X chromosomes in males. The primary features are infertility and small testicles. Often, symptoms may be subtle and many people do not realize they are affected. … Klinefelter syndrome usually occurs randomly
“Davidson’s allies would not be drawn to speak publicly before her own statement on Thursday, and privately only expressed admiration for her leadership and sadness at her decision” – The Guardian, 29 August 2019.
I presume these allies include Sev & Libby who co-wrote the piece.
BBC Reporting Scotland make it all about Ruth Davidson with Bryan Taylor saying she has resigned from both options of her becoming Prime Minister and First Minister
Now I don’t remember at any time in Ruth Davidsons career when either of those options were ever available
The BBC makes it all up again
I’ve never thought that the SNP’s strategy was to ‘save England from brexit’ but instead to show ‘those wavering ‘Don’t Know’s about independence’ that the SNP was a sensible party that could be trusted.
I always thought this strategy was particularly aimed at those voters who voted SNP but didn’t support Independence.
It is clear to anyone who looks closely at these things, that it would only be after people began to feel the results of Brexit in Scotland, that they would begin to switch to Yes.
It’s already happened because Boris Johnston was elected prime minister (or rather leader of the Tories) and the interesting thing about that is, that this had already been ‘predicted’ by polling done previously in Scotland.
The same polling also predicted that should the UK leave with No Deal, the Yes vote would rise by another 4% or so.
The polling companies did not ask how people would vote if Johnston suspended parliament to force No Deal through but would it be stretching credibility to far to hazard a guess that this would add another 2% to Yes?
have crossed the Rubicon folks. This is why Wings is infested in ‘concerned trolls’
SilverDarling says:
28 August, 2019 at 4:54 pm
@Thepnr
“Please just stop this.
People who want the SNP to act are not unionists.
Frustration at the way the SNP are reacting to events does not mean you are a unionist.
Implying that criticism of the SNP = unionism is just plain wrong and you and the others who constantly repeat this have got to stop. The SNP are our elected representatives, they have a mandate to act on our behalf and that is why we want them to do something.
The SNP are in Government here. That is why we are criticising, to assume other motives is tedious and frankly ridiculous and the constant hiding behind this line of argument does you no favours.
We want the same thing – Independence – we disagree that the SNP are doing all they can at the present time. SNP members should have an advantage over the rest of us but they cannot tell us anything either. We have SNP politicians immersed in the UK Parliament’s machinations. To some that seems a waste of time and energy when Johnston will get his way.
So please, give it a rest.” end quote
Bang on right!
Misreporting Scotland goes to Moray for a “balanced” view. Then the whitefish industry. However the grovelling tribute to Ruth was truly sickening. She hasn’t resigned yet and the BBC crew almost got down on their knees to worship her.
Most of your commentors don’t follow Westminster debates very much. In July last year, the Scottish members of the Westminster Parliament were granted a debate on the Sovereignty of the Scottish people, not the Westminster Parliament. After a long debate, the motion was passed unanimously.
The Scottish people could, therefore, vote to repeal the Treaty of the Union of the Scottish and English Parliaments.
The Treaty was signed between the two countries, any one of which can repeal it.
@Meg merrilees
George VII it will be. Charles III too sensitive an issue.
There has been a Charles III recognised before according to this.
http://www.jacobite.ca/gazetteer/Vatican/Stuart_tomb.htm
@JMD
Bang on right JMD and well said.
What did we expect ? English nationalist right wing wants Brexit UK government delivers. It’s ugly, it will be painful – this is the crisis, this is our opportinity.
If your
local Yes group isn’t active give it a kick. It was never going to be ‘cricket’ – like it or not we are revolutionaries.Our time is coming !
Jackson Carlaw on Feb 13th 2019
Ruth Davidson ‘likely’ to be Scotland’s next FM, her deputy insists
Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson is “likely” to be Scotland’s next first minister, her deputy has said.
Jackson Carlaw insisted it was “perfectly possible, if not in fact now likely” that she would lead the next Scottish Government.
http://archive.fo/EGciZ
All I can say is Oops and that politicians lie, especially Unionist politicians, I’ll be sure to keep that in mind.
Bernard Ponsonby on wee shortcake STV and promoted to big STV for the Ruthie Story. So good we in Scotland got to see it twice.
Quite like Bernard.
D’think Murdo will be bold and start an independent Scottish Conservative Party? … me neither 🙂
William Purves @ 6.50 pm.
Go for it, Scotland!
Our ‘Acts of Union’ (Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542) were repealed by Westminster under the Welsh Language Act 1993 Schedule 2 (and subsequent legislation). All BEFORE devolution.
We are NO LONGER in ‘union’ with England – and look forward to you joining us there, soon!
Muscle guy
What a wimp
Ooo who to vote for
Help it’s so confusing
No it ain’t . You vote for Independence and you vote SNP.
There is no WoSc party.
Clapper 57 @ 6.37 pm.
All I can say is that I picked this up on the Grauniad news page – see for yourself. (Am not archiving it here.)
To JMD 6.48pm..well said
I agree ,criticising SNP does not mean you are a unionist, I’m fed up of people saying that too.
I think the SNP are doing what they can so I have no criticism of them but thats another story and hey that’s just my take on things but I totally understand those who do think SNP are not doing enough.
Differing points of view are healthy
Contest them if you wish
But continually calling people a britnat or a unionist is just stupid and unfounded here 100% of the time
Patrick Roden
I agree.
Will Murdo stand for the post? Please let him win 🙂
Patrick Roden 6.48pm
Spot on I agree I think SNP only tried to show people brexit was a terrible idea so that NO voters in Scotland could see clearly that the SNP in addition to running Scotland’s government from Holyrood for the last decade with a steady reliable hand they can also make sensible and reasonable political decision.
FAB
Behind Telegraph’s paywall …. “An election is coming — Boris can only win it by being brave enough to go for a clean Brexit “, says Nigel Farage.
Clean? How can something messy, damaging, and chaotic ever considered ‘clean’.
He means leaving with no Withdrawal Agreement in place, and no transitional period. All ‘no deal’ does is delay a ‘deal’ until after the carnage. The Good Friday Agreement and compliance with it won’t go away. And outstanding money owed, will still be owed. A trade agreement with all the UK’s European neighbours must be done and those are always going to be prerequisites.
So, what’s this ‘clean’ bollocks?
Honestly, they are in a parallel universe.
Sorry me again BUUUUUT
Ian Dunt just tweeted this :
“Ruth Davidson was always the Tory that non-Tory voters said they could actually imagine themselves voting for. In the old days, that was the sort of thing which a party looked for in a leader. Now, it means she’s so alienated she’s probably going to quit.”
Me :
Hi Ian , Obviously you are another one who knows jack shit about Scottish politics….so having said that…perhaps you should do what successful writers do….WRITE ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW …cause that tweet was PURE FICTION and obviously NOT related to you actually having any knowledge on this subject…your welcome.
See told you…testimonials for Ruth the PM who never was but according to our English remainer friends really should have been…from REMAIN supposed liberal minded pundits who THINK they know MORE about Scottish politics than we the Scots do…we LIVE it…they WRITE it…so hey guess they can just make up any old shit….insulting much …hell yeh…but who cares…it’s only the Jocks ….as long as they, the Scots, keep supporting Remain that’s all that matters,after it’s all over we’ll do what we have always done to them,the Jocks, Ignore..slag..prevent.
Trump has joined in welcoming what Boris has done .
Makes me wander was it discussed with him in France .
He tweeted Corbyn no chance of stopping Brexit now.
And STU reading your blog are you remain or leave regarding the EU I am remain
Re the legal process ongoing re preventing proroguing Parliament this quote is from Jo Maughan QC,
‘We have filed a motion asking the Court of Session to suspend the Prime Minister’s REQUEST that Parliament be suspended’.
Since the request has now been granted by the Queen, it looks as if bumbling Boris, was not so bumbling after all, and got this one through under the radar.
It was a valiant attempt to take it to court, but I think it has been out flanked.
Also worth pointing out – he got it through without any leaks to the press. All pointers were for the attempt to be made later, much nearer to Brexit Day.
So what do we know about Brexit, what effects of Brexit are now clear?
A Soft Brexit – which is non existent – will knock 2% off GPD
A Hard/No Deal Brexit 8% off GPD, and include food shortages, medical shortages, trade deal with USA leading to privatised NHS and chlorinated chicken, 2 million job losses UK wide 100,000 of them in Scotland.
And to put that in perspective – particularly for those in the public sector – 2-3% cut in GPD is what the Bankers crash of 2007 did, and look at all the jobs it cost us and is still costing us there.
But most of all, we know that on 31/10/19 when we come out of the EU, we lose the political organisation who’s influence, forced the Labour Party into conceding the democratic deficit in Scotland which lead to 1997 referendum for the Devolved Parliament in Scotland and the creation of Holyrood.
And we know, that power devolved is power retained – and Westminster has never lost sight of that power for an instant.
We no longer have (if we ever did) the luxury of waiting for the effects of Brexit to bite.
We fight now for Indy, or we won’t have any democratic parliament or representatives to provide us an option to vote for it in any shape or form for the foreseeable. After 31/10/19 is to late.
Thepnr,
I understand you are annoyed by folk demanding the scotgov do something, and that’s fine, that is your view. Yes, my post above was pretty much nonsense, but it is because I am furious at the dithering of the SNP. Constantly waiting for ‘the right moment’, while the whole world and brexit, passes them by.
That is why I am frustrated. Since 2016, folk have said, oh, if the Tories won’t listen to the FM’s compromise offer, then she has a plan, or if the torioes exclude Scotland from the talks on brexit, then the snp will call the referendum. On and on, at each and every turn, folk on here assured us Nicola has a plan. I no longer have confidence in any of that. My honest opinion right now, is that the SNP are perfectly happy to do nothing, right up until the next scotparl elections.
Brexit will be done and finished and the Scottish parliament closed, and still the FM will be patiently plotting and waiting ‘for the perfect time’. Meanwhile the whole world has moved on.
Hi Muscleguy.
As an aside…
You mentioned “Kinky Boots”. This may be known by you, maybe not. I remember it from ‘back in the day’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0mTRiZGvvw
(A wee bit of light relief.)
William Purves says:
28 August, 2019 at 6:50 pm
Most of your commentors don’t follow Westminster debates very much. In July last year, the Scottish members of the Westminster Parliament were granted a debate on the Sovereignty of the Scottish people, not the Westminster Parliament. After a long debate, the motion was passed unanimously.
The Scottish people could, therefore, vote to repeal the Treaty of the Union of the Scottish and English Parliaments…
Correct, but arguably you’d need a mandate / successful referendum to do that William.
However, dispute Westminster’s subjugation of Scotland’s democratic mandate to stay in Europe as unconstitutional colonial usurpation of sovereignty, and decree that the Union Treaty has been breeched by the reckless improprieties of Westminster. No mandate is required to defend the letter of Scot’s Law from colonial aggression.
Independence for Scotland after Westminster’s flagrant violation of Scotland’s Constitutional integrity rendering the Union defunct… Test Westminster’s faux Sovereignty, especially as you say, after Westminster recognised the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people as recently as last year.
If not now, then when???
George V11 it will be . . Everybody knows that King Charles is a dug.
@ Welsh Sion says: @ 7:02 pm
Hi Welsh Sion…oops really sorry I didn’t mean I didn’t believe you.
Not intended to offend you..trust me I totally believe he would say that to Guardian….was trying ( obviously failed Lol) to be sarcastic..not towards you…towards Ian Murray.
Have a good evening
Of course the party conference season, in this “use the time wisely” reality, must take priority over silly stuff like Westminster sitting. And now this!
Leave/remain, he thinks we all zip up the back.
This will resonate with the hard of thinking and the disinterested.
Bojo has just made his first big mistake as PM, if longevity is his goal.
Clapper 57 – No offence taken! 🙂
Those here should know me well enough by now as ‘that-Taff-who-belongs-to-both-National-Parties-but-can’t-vote-for-either’. (Pro-indy as well, of course!)
Enjoy *your* evening as well …:)
Daisy Walker says:
Thatcher’s 1980s recessions ~6% real loss in GDP
Banking recession 2008/9 also ~6% loss I GDP
This is going to hurt. Well, hurt some of us. There will be others who expect to gain from other’s misfortunes.
Worst of all, it can be easily avoided!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_Kingdom
Robert J. Sutherland says:
28 August, 2019 at 6:37 pm
Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 18:31,
What a stunningly incredible coincidence!
Reminds me of that famous quote by Upton Sinclair:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
—————-
“What did you do at work today, mummy?”
“Well son, I let the Scottish people know again that they’re too incompetent to run their own country.”
“Oh. What does inconntepemt mean?”
“Incompetent. It means rubbish. Stupid. Silly. Like your pal Wee Slow Joe.”
“Oh.”
“Don’t look at me like that, son. My job pays for your Playstation.”
“Oh. Good. Mummy?”
“Yes, son.”
“Am I Scottish?”
@Daisy Walker
My understanding of a soft Brexit was that the UK left the EU but remained in the Single Market and Customs Union. A hard Brexit meant leaving both of those but leaving with a deal that kept many close ties ans left the door open to closer integration in the future negotiations.
No deal is neither of them, it is exactly what it says, leaving the EU without any transition and no agreement on future discussions. No deal on citizens rights both in the UK and the EU. No deal on settling amicably the UK’s bill for leaving and no deal over the Irish border.
Maybe just as important is that there will be no transition period without a deal, this is madness and why a no deal Brexit is known as a cliff edge. You really don’t want to take that leap because the bottom of the cliff is where soft tissue splats on the rocks of reality.
Boris doesn’t have the bottle to jump off the cliff, when you see him on the telly he always looks as if he wants to burst out laughing and finds it hilarious that he can take the piss out of the media so easily and that conning the UK public is a great big wheeze.
Once a Bullingdon Boy than always a Bullingdon Boy, someone who burns £20 notes in a homeless persons face. This is good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLc-QmUsEY
They really believe they are rulers of the world and entitled to be so. Scotland says GIRFUY Bullingdon Boys.
@me at 7:42
Those who remember Thatcher’s recession will remember how it was common when striking up a conversation with someone you just met to ask, “are you working?”
I really don’t want a rerun of those times.
Excellent piece Stu – completely agree with your analysis.
I only hope that NS is close to exhausting all the options she feels must be exhausted, then we can get on with indyref2 – and if we lose, then we get everything we deserve.
And if we win……we get everything we deserve.
Let’s sign another petition.
Hold! Hold! Hold! – Softly, softly, catchee monkey – Keep your powder dry – If it ain’t broke don’t fix it – SNP BAAAADDDD! – Never interfere while your enemy is making a mistake – Nicola’s bottom drawer is full of game changers – etc, etc.
They can take our s30s but they’ll never take our clichés – especially those promoting inaction.
Phantom Power are quick of the mark…
https://twitter.com/phantompower14/status/1166758343400206339
Mind and unmute the audio!
“of the mark…” = “off the mark…”
Very impressive interview from Joanna Cherry QC on C4 right now: “If Ruth is not prepared to tolerate government by Boris Johnson then why should the people of Scotland tolerate government by Boris Johnson?
“Scotland voted 62 per cent remain the people of Edinburgh voted75 per cent remain and I can tell you from the reaction I’ve been getting on the streets of Edinburgh today and in my email inbox people are very angry about this prorogation and people in Edinburgh who did not vote for independence now want an independence referendum and will vote for independence.”
“There’s. By-election in Shetland tomorrow where it looks as if there might be a major upset.”
Get ready. The campaign has already begun.
On STV news, what a fantastic demonstration at the gates of Balmoral, two Geordies howling at the moon.
First we take Balmoral… oh no let’s start a petition instead.
FFS Scotland get off our arses.
@Thepnr,
Any combination of SM and/or CU membership would mean accepting the European Court of Justice adjudicating on legal disputes. In order for that to happen the UK would have to accept ALL the EU laws and regulations. Including the new laws being brought in on Tax Havens. All the Queens horses and all the Queens men – wouldn’t like that.
The only exception to this that has been negotiated with any country in the world was Terrible May’s deal – for once the EU actually agreed to allow any disputes to be ‘argued’ in UK courts of law. This was ground breaking stuff, and in effect got the UK establishment off the hook for the new tax laws.
Unfortunately it moved the border between NI and Mainland UK to the sea and in effect treated NI (for trading purposes) differently to other parts of the UK (particularly Scotland) and in effect breached the terms and conditions of the Treaty/Acts of Union. And Scotland is the UK’s cash cow at the moment.
And there was the small part, that it scuppered the chance for the powers that be to make a buck selling of the NHS, etc to the USA.
And last but not least, it might not have created quite the chaotic ruckus needed to invoke a State of Emergency and then close down Holyrood – thus shutting up the whinging Jocks cry for Indy, for many’s a moon.
It is not madness, and yes, they really do believe they are the rulers of the world and entitled to be so.
Ruth stepping down you say…
Sounds like a job for Michelle Ballantyne…BIG Bojo fan…her name will go in the hat….Rat in the hat…sorry Rev.
Ruth Davidson wanted Scotland to stay in both Unions and looks to get neither: publicly combusts.
Wee Willie next…?
(Ach, probably too wet.)
Agree with the Rev’s take.
I also find Yessers saying “just overturn and revoke it and Remain without even a mandate to have a second EU referendum!” as some have been saying in various places for a while to be fucking crackers.
If what the English population wanted can so easily be ignored, what chance is there of what Scotland wants ever being listened to, including if we were to win any indyref 2?
I don’t think it’s necessarily wise to cheer on politicians ignoring voters’ wishes on constitutional issues in this way.
Of course, many think it’s a stupid decision but that logic could be used to try and deny Indy as well (just cos we know that would be a sensible decision doesn’t mean others wouldn’t jump on such an excuse to block it).
@Robert Louis
“My honest opinion right now, is that the SNP are perfectly happy to do nothing, right up until the next scotparl elections.”
So if and when that happens I will be the first to apologise to you for putting my faith in Nicola Sturgeon when she has said that Scotland will get the chance to have their say when the terms of Brexit are known.
Right now I still believe in that because due to Westminster governments inability to actually govern Brexit has been delayed and I believe it might be delayed even further.
Who’s to say if we leave on 31st Oct or not? Not me, for now though we should be giving Independence all the support we can and whether you agree with it or not that means backing the SNP, the Greens and any other political party that will be fighting for a Yes vote.
All I would ask of you is this, tone down your criticism until you are proven right, as for now none of what you express concern over has actually happened and might never happen. So far as I can see the SNP have not yet let you and Scotland down because as of today support for Independence is increasing, they are sticking to the path they outlined back in March 2017.
I’ll be as angry as you if an Independence referendum fails to materialise next year but right now I’m backing Nicola sturgeon to call that referendum and I believe we all should give her our backing. Who wouldn’t, ask yourself that?
Know what?…..all of our fellow Wingers and SNP members who are champin’ at the bit …chill!
Events are unfolding at such a rapid pace any pre-emptory move would/could be counter-productive.
Sit tight chiels!
The “ Queen of Scots” has agreed to porongue Parliament . Urgent questions require to be answered in Holyrood !
What happens to the UK – RI border in a `no deal` event,
`no deal` looks inevitable so what happens.
Incidentally….who’s up for conducting a ‘straw poll’ on Roothie Tank Commander’s successor?
Please..please let it be ……Wells/Carlaw/Fraser/Greene……etc.,
All of whom are impeccably satisfying the criteria for the post of Bojo’s poodle.
Nicola tweeted this morning …. “Given her past statements opposing a no deal Brexit, it would be good to have confirmation from Ruth Davidson today that all Scots Tory MPs will back the cross party effort next week to stop it – and that they will also oppose Boris Johnson’s attempt to shut down Parliament. “
Of ?ourse such a confirmation was unlikely! It would be nice to think this put pressure on Davidson to pack it all in. Unlikely too, to be realistic.
galamcennalath 7:46 pm
” Those who remember Thatcher’s recession will remember how it was common when striking up a conversation with someone you just met to ask, “are you working?”
I don’t know where you live but where I am in the North of Scotland that question has been asked every time I met any friend since Thatcher first reared her ugly head, and it still is.
I’m sure there are other areas of Scotland the same.
Those times never left us.
Heart of Glloway @ 7-55pm
You better believe it brother!
Daily Record front page tomorrow…
……’duck chases giraffe’
Galmcennalath @ 8-18pm
Scurrying away into her bolt-hole (like Mr Jack/Fluffy’s new replacement} is by far the safest/comfiest option for Roothie.
Do I feel sorry for her?
Nope!
@Robert J. Sutherland
Read that pdf yet? Scotland is relying on you to get it done.
Onnyhoo…
Are all of us, “the grassroots” gonna be in Dunfermline for the march and rally for independence on Saturday?
https://www.facebook.com/events/831424500563740/
Scotland really hasn’t any unbiased media coverage, television, radio or print apart from the national, that’s why the Scottish population really only hear the unionist propaganda fear tactics that appear in the tv, radio and papers every day we’ll never be free if we can’t even have a free press.
Hackalumpoff @ 8-20pm
There are STILL those who don’t realise the ‘windfall’ tax receipts from oil (in the 80’s) were earmarked to pay for the welfare cost of Thatchers wholesale destruction of the mining/steel industries.
There are none so blind who will not see.
RM @ 8-39pm
We’re working on it buddy.
Quite a clever move from Boris if you ignore the outcome it will deliver.
For a vote of no confidence and a new election to have any chance of happening by 31st October it now needs to happen and pass between the 3rd and 5th September. However that requires Tory rebels to vote against their government which many will only want to do once the EU meeting has been and gone on the 17th October. So pretty much no chance of a general election before brexit.
For a new bill to get through making it impossible for no deal to happen will probably get fillibustered before it can come into law by the 5th September. Trying to pass it after the 17th October would run the risk that the government calls a general election and effectively stops the bill from passing before the 31st.
The EU would now be mad to give any more to Boris as it would now be seen to came in to a Bully. So No deal it is.
However now the UK Government is stopping the UK parliament from sitting is it possible that the Scottish Government could state that they will assume they have the legsilative authority to hold an Indyref on 1st November unless the UK Government passes legislation preventing that by 31st October?
@Tam the Bam. 8:39 pm
The Highland Clearances started in 1770 before Iron and Steel were a thing, not that it makes any easier for any of us.
All polls for over a year show a remain majority. This doesn’t materialise in other elections because of issues, like the limiting nature of the first past the post system.
BDTT, I am sorry I won’t make this one either even though my heart needs some convivial company right now .
I hope it is extraordinary and the turnout is huge – and counted by drone!
Robert Peffers said: “Now you know why Westminster tries hard to keep the question of sovereignty out of the courts”.
So, do you think the SNP will argue Claim of Right, that the Monarch of Scotland is subject to the rule of law and rule of Parliament, so she better no prorogue Parliament against the will of Parliament- Or she’s sacked as Queen of Scots?
Nae chance.
Roothie has flipped, but is in mid flight and may flop, but has also flopped and may flip.
She is Schrodingers Tory
I look forward to the Tory branch office leader elections. Murdo, Tompkins, Wells, Greene, Briggs – everyone a polictical colosus.
However I would expect Boris to lay down a marker for closing Holyrood by appointing a MP as Scottish Tory leader and if so there can only be one choice, Ross Thomson. In an apocalyptic no deal Brexit world we need someone to make us laugh.
@laukat
“Trying to pass it after the 17th October would run the risk that the government calls a general election and effectively stops the bill from passing before the 31st.”
The UK government cannot call a general election without a 2/3rds majority vote or a vote of no confidence succeeding.
Johnson is taking a gamble on Labour calling a vote of no confidence in him when parliament returns next week, I believe that’s what he wants but it might not happen.
Delaying a vote of no confidence would be dangerous for the opposition if Johnson succeeds in his prorogation but then again he might not happen.
Lots and lots of ifs and buts, it doesn’t matter to us now though which ever way it goes. It is clear that Scotland is NOT an equal partner in this Union and in fact the Union does not exist. Scotland is undoubtedly a colony of England at least in the eyes of a Westminster Tory party.
We will have the opportunity to do something to change that in the near future. BORIS BLOWS BREXIT!
@ Tam the Bam @ 8.18pm
Hi Tam, I suggest Michelle Ballantyne is in with a shot….Bojo fan…though she slated him on the Debate show..said he could not care less about Scotland….THEN…she was seen outside the venue for Scottish Bojo/Jeremy Leadership debate….with placards saying Team Boris..
Perhaps Ruth was going to be replaced…Michelle would be THE perfect fit…Team Boris…Brexit…nasty…tactless…flip flop credentials impeccable….so full package.
So maybe , just maybe, another coup has been going on in the Scottish Tory party aided by Alister Jack and team HQ….Ruth went of message…so she had to go…for her to quit was a way to save face….will we ever know…we may when we find out who the candidates are….if someone like Michelle B then I think that this could be a coup….remember Tories like to do everything behind CLOSED doors….do they not Miles B…
BTW does anyone know what the actual f**k is happening with Ross Thomson’s investigation….know it must also be another behind closed door scenario…but my God…funny how Tories quick to act on some things and so so slow on others…guess it depends whether it is an advantage or disadvantage to them…
laukat @ 8-45pm
Do you honestly believe that blonde oaf possesses the political ‘nous’ to come up with this wizard wheeze ?
#spad#dominic cummings
@Clapper57
Investigation into Ross Thomson was dropped back in February. There’s a surprise eh!
Parliament’s standards commissioner is understood to have ruled out investigating complaints that Aberdeen South MP Ross Thomson engaged in inappropriate behaviour at Strangers’ Bar on a technicality.
http://archive.fo/hLm60
@Thepnr
“The UK government cannot call a general election without a 2/3rds majority vote or a vote of no confidence succeeding.”
The vote doesn’t need to succeed, all it needs to do is eat up time and prevent any other legisltaion from being tabled.
Agree that Boris is trying to force a no confidence vote next week as he calculates rebel Tories don’t want to vote for Corbyn until No deal is absolutely certain
The UK parliamnet is effectively now unable to stop Boris. The Scottish Government now needs to provide a way forward that doesn’t rely on getting approval from Boris. If Boris can shut down the UK parliament, ignore vast swathes of the English electorate and pretty much all of the polictical class why would he bow down to Scotland?
Record carries this story, but here’s The National link:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17866207.scottish-court-ruling-brexit-put-uk-unprecedented-territory/
The Record actually puts it more aggressively:
“Scottish court could rule Queen broke law by agreeing to suspend Parliament”
It’s all about the Rule of Law; either we have it – or we don’t and the UK is just a little polpotty dictatorship.
de ye fink wee roofie will start doing standup at the festival – wee shouty lesbian is a popular brand, but susan calman might have it covered – notably, being particularly funny is NOT required
ruth davidson pishing all over her feminism there – whit ye sayin hen??
– once you huv a baby ye CANNY HANDLE YIR JOAB?
did she claim her child benefit and her baby box – maybe the district nurse could come in, give a hand?
– or get an AU PAIR
next tory leader at holyrood, the FM should welcome him/her/they/it and add
– “I will SEE YOU OFF AS WELL … “
The suspension of Parliament by a cabal of right wing fascists is what you would expect in a rogue Latin American state.
Parliaments in a democracy decide what is to be done having been granted power by the electorate. Parliament is therefore the body to decide policy.
It is not democracy if people have their parliament suspended. Scotland. In the absence of a parliament people are entitled to pursue another route altogether.
In Scotland we have our own parliament capable and able to take over from a non functioning Westminster parliament.
Scottish MPs should this walk out from their the Westminster Parliament that they are now locked out of, and the Scottish Government should declare independence.
The alternative is to sleepwalk into the trains that carried so many to their end in 1930’s Germany – and where Hitler took power in a similar way
Harsh, brutal reality there, Rev. Cannot disagree with anything you have said there.
Okay Nicola–over to you,
@Tam the Bam
I don’t doubt this particular event was from the Dominic Cummings playbook but you have to at least credit Bojo the Clown with the intelligence to appoint someone with the darks arts intelligence of Cummings.
Personally I think Bojo is a very calculating and self serving individual. The lovable Buffoon act he has cultered for many years is just that – an act. Eddie Mair nailed Bojo’s true character when he said he “a nasty piece of work”.
So if we accept we had PM that doesn’t care what is done to keep him in power and a SPAD well versed in the dark acts able to make it happen then its going to require a belter of a plan from the Scottish Government to get another Indyref. We really need see that plan now though.
@laukat
“its going to require a belter of a plan from the Scottish Government to get another Indyref. We really need see that plan now though”
Simple question, why do we need to see that plan NOW?
hackalumpoff says:
28 August, 2019 at 8:47 pm
“The Highland Clearances started in 1770 before Iron and Steel were a thing”
…and the Romans carved themselves a mighty empire with their famous wooden swords.
http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/falkirk/carroncompany/index.html
@ Thepnr @ 9.17pm
Thanks Thepnr..however I have now checked and there is still an ongoing Conservative parliamentary inquiry to be undertaken apparently they are dragging their heels …………….still to START the investigation….translate and file under …….NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN….Dear oh dear…Tories eh…Jackson Carlaw said in July that ” inquiries are still ongoing”….that right Jackson…
My wee ode to Jackson oan yon Ross T
My breath is bated…so long I have waited… but I’m sure I’ll no be sated…more likely nauseated…at the time you have debated…aboot yon wee runt being intoxicated…and all yon inappropriate touching he initiated…now there’s one seat that will be vacated…that is something even you must have anticipated…pity you chose him to be nominated…we could have telt yea he was never rated…so take your time though it’s no really that complicated……though by the time you do he will already be……politically….exterminated….#SNPGAIN
@Clapper57
Haha very good, I like your style. A bit like this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB3NlOUg-ps
@ Thepnr @ 10.01pm
Hi Thepnr….I wish…Lol
Love that guy he is so so good.
Michael Heseltine on shortbread there:
Ruth Davidson is a highly respected member of the party and if the membership in Scotland feel likewise it is one more stepping stone to independence. 🙂
Shortbread says she very deeply disappointed. Statement tomorrow.
PS: Obviously the Scottish Tories had no idea it was happening.
Col.Blimp IV 9:54 pm
What ho! Colonel, we see ya FOAD.
Careful Stu, you risk being hauled up in front of the House Un-SNPish Activities Committee if you continue to voice such heresies.
Place one hand on the Haggis, the other on your heart and repeat after me –
“I am not now, nor have I ever been a despicable Unionist Troll”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_-KoBiBG0
Colonel Windbag is not about to resign as Branch Manager Johnson’s Party unless it will further her career. She’s u-turned on all her passionately held beliefs, so why would she start acting out of principle now? Of course, maybe she sees herself as a Jockistani Arlene Foster, leading a “different” party, propping up right-wing English governments and sharing Foster’s sash.
@Clapper57
Yes John Cooper Clarke is the greatest punk poet. I saw him in the Caird Hall around 1978 when he was a support act for a band I can’t remember now LOL.
I also paid money to see this guy around 2000 or so, can’t remember the exact year but he was a disappointment. I really admired him in his whole career but it seemed his heart wasn’t in it any longer. I guess he was just skint and trying to earn a crust and I can’t blame him for that. He he is at his best and before he was a “star” on TV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1-l1d04zRo
Here he is at his best, not He he.
Greannach
Maybe she hopes to front a program to repatriate “Ulster Scots” who find themselves disadvantaged, when Boris refuses to invoke the Irish Butt-Plug.
Yes, what happened today is a suspension of democracy, and the Queen may not be able to wash her hands of it for much longer
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/
Carrying a conversation from last thread –
Robert Peffers:
‘By your own comments here on Wings you are Scottish but as yet not one of the people of Scotland and guess what, Joe, you too have no say in Scots politics until the day you actually are mainly resident in Scotland, pay tax as a Scot and are registered to vote in Scottish elections.
In short you really don’t know what it is to live in Scotland unless you live in Scotland.’
In that case, Robert, if my 26 years in Scotland with taxes paid and numerous times spent back here, with all my family being Scottish (in Scotland) how is it you are all over the Scottish Independence blog of a guy who lives in Bath?
So Rev. Stuart Campbell doesnt have a say?
Do you even think about what you are saying?
What you want is for me to go away and stop knocking holes in the utter nonsense (see above) that you spout.
Special Branch “spies” are firmly embedded within the civil service and in the government in Scotland. Their mission being to leak intelligence to Whitehall.
There are also political “sleepers” tasked with disrupting the business of the Scottish government.
The US has plans in place to ensure its nuclear deterrent interests in Scotland are not threatened and the CIA are providing full support to the UK Special Branch.
Will Westminster Proscribe the SNP Forcing an Election in Scotland – Returning Ruth Davidson and the Lib Dems to Power – Part 1
Sorry: the link
https://caltonjock.com/2019/08/28/will-westminster-proscribe-the-snp-forcing-an-election-in-scotland-returning-ruth-davidson-and-the-lib-dems-to-power-part-1/
@Joe
“Carrying a conversation from last thread”
What a dick! Do you really think anybody cares about a spat you had on the last thread? Get over yourself, your not that important.
bert
One of the reasons for independence is to have some sort of control of the border as once we are up and running Scotland will be very attractive to the English whose own country is bursting at the seams. It wouldn’t take much to turn Scotland into England. And I don’t see the EU agreeing to it anyway.
@ Thepnr
I’ve never seen John Cooper Clarke ‘Live’ …would love to..saw a documentary about him on TV…wish I had went to see him when he was at Edinburgh Festival one year.
Re your second clip attachment….my God I never knew he did that..always thought he was just an actor…hidden talent not known….pity he didn’t pursue it further but guess TV success as an actor helps pay the mortgage etc.
ps. Re your first attachment on your previous post at 10.01pm…was worried about opening it as thought…hope it’s not Bernard Friggen Manning Lol…though believe he was not renowned for rhyming slimeing ….slime maybe but not rhyme Lol
Perhaps Ruth Davidson has principles after all.
Belated principles are better than no principles ava!
Fair doos to BBC Newsnight who interwieved Joanna Cherry QC as prime mover of the Court of Session case to stop Boris Johnson’s no deal and avoiding House ofCommons scrutiny.
So why do BBC Scotland persist in promoting Ian Murray as the main person behind the legal challenge
.
Anti-prorogation petition now passed 1M signatures.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Have you read that pdf yet? I’ll pester you until you do 🙂
My granddaughter e-mailed me. Can I give her a lift to Dunfermline
for the March. Well that’s fine & I get her to carry my new YES flag. Her first March 🙂
It’s only Hearts V Hamilton, a mere bagatelle… phfftt! 🙂
Do we think Ruthie will borrow Johaan Lamonts shoulder blade knife and have a goodbye stab at Boris’s back before she makes her *I’ve been thinking about it for some time and family time is more important* statement
The Tories in Scotland will be soiling themselves if she does and who will want the job then, well all of them I suppose, especially Tomkins, or maybe they’ll just get another BBC employee, tons of Tories in there, Bryan Taylor can select a new one for them
The First Minister owes a great debt to Bojo the Clown
And the rest of his troupe as the Independence Petition
Was slowing down but it has added another 4,000 signatures
To over 276,000..
300,000 target here we come!
https://www.yes.scot/
@Boris, 10.42
on the subject of infiltration, see http://archive.is/FRxX3 “to what extent has Integrity Initiative infiltrated UK political parties?”
At this rate, the Cummings-Johnson plans won’t
make it to 31st October. Even if the MPs fail, through this prorogation of Parliament by the dynamic duo, the general public may well take to the streets regularly and be the ones to put a stop to No Deal Brexit.
The Brexit Avalanche continues, yet these remarkable events are still only just the preliminaries.
Sinky @ 23:07,
Also watched BBC Newsnight, for the first time in ages, to try to fathom what’s happening. Ex-chief Justice Sumption thinks the legal challenge is effectively doomed because within the narrow limits of the law what UKGov has done is legal, which is all the SC will see.
Despite UKGov having no party majority in the HoC, Her Maj. accepted its advice to prorogue.
Virtually insufficient time to get stoppage legislation through HoC+HoL before prorogation reset, and not enough time afterwards.
Apparently Tory UKGov fantasists like Nicky Morgan still think that BoJo, by playing even harder hardball, will force the EU to finally buckle under the strain (eheh, what strain?) and allow the backstop to be excised. There’s delusional, and there’s perversely delusional.
Maybe they are not the only ones suffering from wishful thinking, though. As Kirsty Wark said, BoJo has played a flanker. Hard now to believe that some kind of parliamentary magic wand is going to be wafted in time. We’ll see soon enough. I have an even stronger feeling than ever though that Halloween is now an accident fully primed to happen.
Paul Mason – good guy, and angry for all the right reasons – wants to take it to the streets. Thankfully we have a better alternative.
Thepnr @ 23:26,
I started, honest. =laugh= Just been taking a break for the news…
Interesting article.
First time I have noticed the Rev using Actual numbers of votes to advance an argument.
Like this
“Even in Scotland, which voted Remain by a large margin in 2016 and returned a majority of anti-Brexit SNP MPs, most voters actually voted for the two parties who had expressly pledged to carry out Brexit in accordance with Article 50.
(1.47m Scots voted Labour or Tory, while 1.16m voted SNP or Lib Dem.)”
And there is your answer why the starting gun for Indyref2 was not fired.
Parko
You are disingenuous.
In Scotland both labour and Tories were remain.
Their bosses in England were leave.
Did you forget?
Papko
Beats me why Indyref2 is even being considered, UK general elections come around at least every five years and yield no benefit to Scotland other than as a cash cow for our second string politicians.
Do you think anyone outside the political bubble would, be able to name a even a single one of the fuckers? put that one to the test, next time you venture out into the “real world”.
If the SNP made it clear that a majority of votes for independence supporting parties means – we leave the Union – We would have a rolling everendum that we only have to win once.
Call me Dave @ 11.32
Mind and bring that very welcome young Lady to the Wings Stall to say Hi 🙂
@Liz g
I will.
Just racked my senile auld brain to see how many SNP MP’s I could name.
Blackford, Wishart, Black and Cherry was all I could come up with, I Checked against Wiki’s list and of the still in office ones, I had heard of a grand total of 10.
Of that ten, three were people I actually know but had forgotten that they were MP’s.
On the smaller list of former MP’s, I recognised 21 names most of whom I could identify by sight.
Call me Dave @ 1.12
Lookin forward to it…. Fitba any Fitba … Phiffttt..
Grandweans and Indy…. = A future…
See ye there 🙂
Corner blimp the fourth…..
I don’t expect anyone here to care about my memory deficiencies… Of which there are many….
Why on earth should we worry about yours ?
Facebook might be mair yer niche ?I
Jist sayin…
Robert Peffers @ 5.52pm
You’re so right I’m not giving the SNP enough credit for issuing a petition, a few emails and some videos (I really need an eye roll emoji here!)
Decent shout from Derek Bateman…
“Lots of calls for indyref soon. But what would help express the mood is one huge public demo, not AUOB, but called by the SNP, attended and addressed by them. If you like, an official expression of revulsion at undemocratic Brexit and a statement that we are ready to act.”
… But it still feels like the thing we should have been doing three years ago, not 62 days before the axe falls. Still a good idea mind, but a bit too radical for the mañana Party.
“Thepnr says:
28 August, 2019 at 9:52 pm
@laukat
“its going to require a belter of a plan from the Scottish Government to get another Indyref. We really need see that plan now though”
Simple question, why do we need to see that plan NOW?
That’s so facetious it doesn’t deserve an answer.
It’s precisely down to Euro-ambivalents like Thepnr that the SNP didn’t double down on Scottish Sovereignty back in 2016, giving Scotland the Constitutional equivalent of the Irish Backstop from the outset.
Instead they charged off piste with their improvised and insipid soft Brexit campaign, to pander to short sighted Eurosceptics who would put Brexit ahead of Scottish Independence, and in so doing undermined the fundamental constitutional principle of Scotland’s popular sovereignty.
Westminster doesn’t respect it, the EU doesn’t respect it, the UN doesn’t respect it, because they’ve never had to, because here in Scotland, our own fkn Independence Party doesn’t even respect it either.
Fk your sovereignty, Nicola’s calling for us to sign a petition!!! If we can just get 6 million Scots to sign it, it will be a longer petition than the Revoke Article 50 petition, and every inch as impotent….
Seems being facetious is contagious.
@Thepnr 1026
JC Clark was supporting Elvis and the Attractions at the Caird Hall 1978.
I know ‘cos I was there.
Ruthie’s Twitter feed opens a window into her thinking.
Gushing references to English cricket success.
Tweets from Stephen Daisley.
Tweets from Rupert Soames of Serco.
Basically a series of tick boxes sucking up to English elite public opinion.
Ruth is quitting as a GE is coming fast taking her Tories down the stank in Scotland and bursting her bubble forcing her out, so its time to dodge the bullet for Ruth, a game she has played to a tee.
@ Breeks.
Petitions in Scotland are potentially more potent than those in England which is why the Yes movement should have been using them long before now, and it certainly shouldn’t have been left to the First Minister to start one herself.
The wording has to be right, no wishy washy demands, ‘ We the Sovereign People of Scotland order the Scottish Parliament on pain of treason ‘. We are Sovereign and we don’t need anyone’s permission to act like a Sovereign people. Our Constitutional law states that we are Sovereign, the Treaty of Union enshrined that Sovereignty, and the English Parliament of 1707 signed up to that Sovereignty, and the Treaty of Union is indisputably extant because westminster is constrained by its articles every time it passes UK legislation. The challenge to Westminster dubious claim of sovereignty should come from us, the People of Scotland, using our Parliament and not left to Nicola.
Correct @starlaw says at 7:23 am
Colonel Yadaftie fleeing the field of battle before her troops are annihilated at the next General Election also allows for a “Return of the hero” narrative after a suitable length of time (ably assisted by the ‘Scottish MSM/BBC, just think how they protect BritNat Labour in Scotland and the FibDems historic wrongs against the people of Scotland right now)!
Jacob Rees Moggy about to come on LIVE on LBC radio
Listen in…
NOW
God! BBC is in full state propaganda mode this morning – “nothing to see here, move along”, “no-one’s bothered”, “everything’s normal, nothing to worry about”, blah, blah, blah…
Let us remind ourselves the Colonial White supremist England
Voted for Brexit and a Fascist Government.
Scotland has tried warn and advise them to no avail.
Scots have no voice or credibility with the English majority.
I look forward to hearing Boris saying “But it’s what you voted for”
As their jobs go, as medical supplies run out, as American companies control
What was once the NHS and as half of England’s children live in poverty and
Hunger.
On a brighter note, the filthy rich can still continue to dodge their taxes and. Launder
Their I’ll gotten gains.
Their media will blame everything on Scotland not giving fascism and the UDA Party
Their full support .
@The PNR
Nah.
I love pointing out the hypocrisy of leftists. Especially my own countrymen.
Like I dont have a relevant view here because I dont live in Scotland at this moment in time when the guy who writes this blog lives in Bath. Really?
Or – its undemocratic that the leader of the elected government of the UK is going forward with a mandate that was gained in a referendum. While politicians who have never won a national election and who lost the referendum are ‘defending democracy’in trying to stop it.
Or – Britain cannot prosper outside of the EU and if we leave it will be total catastrophe. Despite it being discussed as a viable, if less desirable, route Scotland might have had to take after the 1st indy ref.
My opinion is not welcome with some because it messes with that kind of utter nonsense. Not because of my current location.
So I will point that BS out at every opportunity:)
Though if Mr Campbell tells me im breaking some rules then im happy to comply.
Thanks
@Golfnut…
How we Scot’s implement our Sovereignty is matter which requires to be codified. Our use of referenda needs codified. Our political representation needs codified… In general, our whole Constitution needs codified so Scotland’s citizens never again have their rights truncated or subjugated through ignorance or hostile indoctrination… but these are just parameters and conveniences we need to implement the sacred principle of sovereignty.
But all of that is our National project, an internal forum of Scottish citizens where everybody has a voice, which defines what our Nation is, and how we govern ourselves, how we resolve disputes between ourselves, and how we reach decisions, whom we ally ourselves with… We build our own country from the inside out.
But for now, until we are free and rid of this damned Union, we have a 14th Century Constitution, and while visionary and way ahead of it’s time, it has lacked 300 years of “modern” evolution and implementation. It’s doesn’t build a cathedral for democracy at it’s heart, because democracy didn’t exist in 14th Century Scotland.
Our 14th Century Constitution and it’s codification into law hasn’t really evolved in 300 years by our hand, but it has suffered 300 years of abuse, disinformation, indoctrination and falsehood suffered upon it by Westminster’s avarice and duplicity. Many of our own people have been turned against their own Nation for generations, and that fact alone presents a problem for “true” democracy. Democracy isn’t just about free speech, but free thought, free objective thinking without your head filled with propaganda and indoctrination.
All Scotland’s Constitution really defines is that the Scottish people are Sovereign… but that is enough, because it is the nucleus at the centre of everything else.
In Scotland’s 21st Century predicament, about to subjugated out of Europe against the will of our people, we have an existential Constitutional Test Case whether we like it or not. We either stand up and defend the sovereignty at the heart of everything, or we acquiesce to our Nation’s subjugation and might never be sovereign again.
Sovereignty is a binary and absolute condition, and sooner or later, that is the fulcrum we must tip. We ARE sovereign but acting like we’re not. Acquiesce to Brexit, and we won’t be sovereign but merely acting like we are.
Cactus says:
29 August, 2019 at 7:52 am
Jacob Rees Moggy about to come on LIVE on LBC radio
Listen in…
If you don’t mind, Cactus, I’d rather not.
His plummy voice and passive-aggressive faux politeness gie me the boak. 🙂
Thepnr.
Thankyou 🙂
Breeks@5.32am
And Moses comes down from Mt Sinai with another meaningless proclamation.
Puffed up zealotry may be good for the ego but meanwhile in the real world most of us are trying their damndest to win over more of the sovereign people of Scotland to our cause.
I have encountered this kind of Puritanism before – and it did not end well for the independence movement.
The SNP’s Jim Sillars had just won Govan in a by-election in November ’88.
The whole firmament of Scottish politics shifted, the SNP was leading the anti-poll tax campaign and Labour voters were coming over in droves.
The STUC and unions for the first time began to see the SNP as potential leaders of the Scottish fight back against Thatcher and the party hit 35% in the polls.
The Labour establishment were shitting themselves – then the SNP negotiating team of Sillars, Gordon Wilson and Winnie Ewing walked out of talks to establish the Scottish Constitutional Convention, which was seeking to build momentum for some kind of self-government.
Most importantly, it was viewed as a bulwark against Thatcherism and I still remember my disbelief and despair at what was a tactically disastrous decision.
The SNP’s subsequent “Free by ’93” slogan turned out to be the paper tiger it was and it took us another 10 year to get the parliament.
So, empty rhetoric gets us nowhere – politics is all about getting your hands dirty, strategically outsmarting your enemy and winning hearts and minds so that when you strike, you have assembled the broad base of support you need to win.
Radio Shortbread.
Nicola Sturgeon declined to come on this morning?
Strange wording as whenever the Red or Blue Tories
Can’t come on it’s due to being unavailable or otherwise
Engaged this morning.
They must have a significant and costly team of propaganda
Script writers in there to word all things SNP differently to suggest
Baaaad.
Pathetic. Can’t wait for propaganda quay to be cleared out and sent
Back to their Southern masters.
Old saw, If you seek power you take it.
While the rest protest ‘is it legal, constitutional’, you have it.
Lesson in the Johnson démarche.
Everything up for grabs in the new for old ‘devil may care’ politics.
We need to get grabbing.
Heart of Galloway at 8.44
I read that entirely differently. They walked out of talks which were designed to establish a body that would frustrate demand for independence. They were refusing to include independence as an option and your take on it above is the unionist line that we were subsequently fed.
.
Coup, coup or coup?
Just watched Jim Fitzpatrick MP on Adam Bolton’s “All Obnoxious Politics” programme.
The way Jim Fitzpatrick was sucking up to Theresa May and slavering over Boris The Great, viewers would be left with an impression Jim Fitzpatrick is a right wing Conservative MP.
FFS he is a Labour MP.
Jim Fitzpatrick MP. Red Tory.
Also smokey Jim has a massive chip on his shoulder about Gina Miller and the public’s right to hold politicians to account.
Apparently Fitzpatrick is Scottish, but his weird accent, just like his right wing Labour policies is all over the place!
Not everyone knows what the Scottish term “coup” means. I wouldn’ let yon Jim Fitzpatrick run a coup and By that I mean a rubbish cowp.
It seems to me that we look at this from different points of view, Indy supporters and the rest, I mean.
We see Scotland as an individual country in an unfair Union, we have the same rights and responsibilities as any other country. Our vote as a country should be respected.
But how can it be separated in a Union, where the majority rules?
Westminster, the press, a large proportion of the population of England and the Unionists in Scotland do not see Scotland as a country at all.
Scotland does not exist, only the UK exists.
Because of this Scotlands vote can be dismissed as a small part of the bigger whole (hole?) It is insignificant, in effect.
I think legally they are probably correct.
Holyrood can be overruled by Westminster easily enough.
The Scottish Courts can be overruled by the Supreme court in London. It has already happened.
Morally we believe we are correct, the people of Scotland are sovereign, we did not vote for Brexit or the Tory party in government but we have both. That is unfair, unjust we say, but as article points out, it appears democratic in the eyes of the law.
As the article shows, 2014 tied us to all of this, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Unless we legally vote for independence.
I hope that is close to the way that the SNP are thinking and that is the reason there appears to be so little happening.
The gamble being, once the undecideds see just how bad it really is they will be tipped towards independence. There is of course the risk that more change would scare them even more.
Morality and legality seem to be separate here. Morality, perhaps, subjective?
Morally the Unionists see nothing wrong with defending the Union any way they see fit.They believe it best, if they can even see a union at all, and not the UK as a country.
The Union and the courts seem to back that position.
2014 was a humiliation, an embarrassment and a leash around our necks. This present situation highlights the effects of an act of catastrophic self harm, that was the 2014 result.
Maolbeatha…
Can’t disagree with any of that.
Alan Cochrane on shortbread chewing wasps this morning suggesting the FM would be supping champagne this morning to the sound of cheering in Bute House.
Desperate times for Scottish Tories non of whom consented to appear on the programme. Aye not a happy man! 🙂
Oh…. described her as a great performer in the 2014 debate with the colossi Darling and Brown!
All gone… Not long now.
Jings! Her= Ruth
@Breeks
“Euro-ambivalents like Thepnr”
I don’t know what that means, so I’ll take it a compliment.
@Fergus Green
Thanks for the info re Elvis Costello in 1978, small world 🙂
i see ruth is about to give her statement at 11am.
Fuck it.I think I’ll just watch peaky blinders instead.
More political ‘truths’ to be had from a fiction.
She’s gone!
This is pretty dark material.
https://twitter.com/PhilipPullman/status/1166992804373045253
That’s one way to get publicity for a new tv series.
http://archive.is/E2hcC
Or as the Rev said on Twitter.
Imagine if he had said it.
This is for Ruth, it’s the least I could do 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEhkM3X_teQ
DMH@9.28am
Dave, not to go over old ground too much, I was fully aware of what the unionists were trying to do.
The SNP were handed good reason to walk out and we took the bait. It was not so much the departure it was the timing – combined with the perception among those we had so recently won over that we had joined the Tories on the outside. That really hurt us.
And for all its faults, the SCC under Canon Kenyon Wright did produce the 1989 Claim or Right declaring the sovereignty of the Scottish people.
Davidson aims for the house of lords – as usual
Just listened to ruth and I believe she is now going to be elevated to house of lords wait for her letter of arse sucking to boris being published
First Prize to Hugh Grant for describing Johnson as
‘an over-promoted rubber bath toy’
Mr Grant is not fecking happy.
http://archive.is/uEQt1
Skies around Balmoral are full of helicopters ATM.
As usual – (t)Ruthless only answering a controlled number of questions and then she vanished sidestepping anything difficult.
Very dignified tweet from Nicola – respect.
So Davidson is not resigning her seat.
No way she was causing a Holyrood byelection in a Tory seat at this point.
The curse of Andrew Tickell strikes again. Want rid of someone? Get @PeatWorrier to write a character assessment.
Johann Lamont – http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com/2014/10/she-isnt-up-to-it.html
Ruth Davidson – https://www.thenational.scot/news/17814556.andrew-tickell-39-s-truth-ruth-davidson-39-s-legacy/
So post Ruth Davidson’s resignation speech this morning…urging MP’s to support Boris J’s …NEW DEAL.that apparently she thinks he’s striving to get Lol..and pledging her support for him AND to see Brexit done….looks as if mega ardent remainer Ian Dunt’s tweet yesterday is another one consigned to the ‘ has not aged well’ bin.
Ian Dunt’s tweet :
“Ruth Davidson was always the Tory that non-Tory voters said they could actually imagine themselves voting for. In the old days, that was the sort of thing which a party looked for in a leader. Now, it means she’s so alienated she’s probably going to quit.”
See…when you know NOTHING about Scottish politics and politicians…best to say NOTHING…else you end up making an arse of yourself….what say you now Mr Dunt…is your role as Ruth fanboy waning or have you still got your (broken) rose tinted glasses on ?
I laugh but inside I cry….they know nothing Lol
My goodness. Winnie Ewing had three wee weans when she was elected.
What a pathetic surrender by Ruth Davidson.
She might have had some respect from me had she said she found Boris Johnson unacceptable and she couldn’t work with him as he stood against everything she had fought for in the EU referendum.
Davidson sounds like Capt Ahab talking to Moby Dick.
“With my last breath, I stab at thee Scottish indy referendum.”
One by one they fall, killed by their own arrogance and intransigence. Indy is surely coming ,as the stars align to expose the Union cloaked in all its selfishness.
Remember Ruth KNOWS good chance the runts of her litter currently impersonating Members of Parliament ‘representing’ (Lol) their constituents at WM may be shunted from their undeserved positions come next and perhaps imminent GE.
So the ‘new’ leader of Tories IN Scotland will fall at the first REAL hurdle..and Ruth will be mourned all over again..by the media…cause God forbid the Unionist press would concede the tide was turning on Scottish opinion….they would NEVER promote that….not when they can spin another….Ruth saviour of the Union story…..gone but NEVER forgotten…they’ll make sure of that.
I’m no expert, but if we come out of the EU with a no deal on 31st does that mean on the 1st EU regulations do not apply and BoJo can close down the Scottish parliament?
Therefore Rooth the mooth resigning makes perfect sense as on the 1st she wouldnae hae a job anyhow!
If this is the case it seems to me we have only a few weeks to act, and act we must, or be condemned to a totalitarian state.
Hitting the streets would only give them an excuse to enforce a state of emergency which someone has already mentioned.
A more significant thing than Mooth’s resignation today is treacherous Corbyn now saying he would delay indyref2 during “the formative years” of a Labour government. He’s so deluded he thinks he can string Scotland along in the way Labour used to do when they were dominant north of the border.
Parliamentary democracy UK Tory style.
If MPs vote for the 6-month Brexit delay they want, Johnson will ignore them, writes Robert Peston
http://archive.fo/s9VXM
Ramsey Jones, the former Tory spad/spin doctor, who did more than anyone to put Davidson in the Scottish leader job in 2011, being interviewed on BBC this morning. Saying Davidson is so great she could do a job at the UN or NATO. Ruthie as UN Secretary General! Why are unionists so unreal?
Was this announcement by Ruthless arranged to get the wastemonter news off the front pages in Scotland?
@ kapelmeister @ 12.11pm
Exactly Kapelmeister, Corbyn specialises in ‘stringing’ along..done it with Brexit…doing it with Indy Ref 2…so excellent chance he will also do it when decisions need to be made , IF ( big IF ), he was to become next PM.
I have no love or respect for Blairites in Labour party but Brexit has at least proven that Corbyn is as unreliable and deceitful as Boris…two cheeks of the same arse…England does deserve better…while here in Scotland we KNOW we can do much much better than the political Hobson’s choice we are being offered via WM.
Come on Shetland…please do the right thing….I need to know that there is hope that will restore my faith in , not just human nature, but also that sanity and common sense still exist and hopefully , come tomorrow, will be revealed as a fact. #SNPGAIN
Ruth Davidson’s abdication speech: charlatan speaking unto sychophants,
The BBC yet again treating this coward as a failed Messiah.
Be fascinating to see who will replace Davidson. I can’t think of one of them that has the ability to mould the party around their own, albeit somewhat empty, media persona the way Davidson did.
Carlaw seems probable but he was utterly anonymous during Ruth’s maternity leave. Murdo? The Queen’s eleven of Scottish politics? Tomkins? Can’t see it. Wells?…OK now I’m being silly.
Alex Cole-Hamiltion is a possible. Don’t come more right wing or dishonest really.
Some winger – any winger
– join the fucking scots tories now
See if you can become leader by next week. What’s the odds – even I would say – I mean, its just a wall of talent you are up against. Ha.
Then do the same with scots labour. Wingers are the new freemasons – we put our people in place, then pull the strings.
BBC Scotland really upset at shona Craven’s audacity of not praising Ruth Davidson’s massive achievement of taking Tory vote from 28% down to 11% at most recent European elections.
Listen to Radio Scotland at 12.15 onwards.
Davidson’s successor must become the Darling of next month’s Tory Conference.
Saying:
“Everyone in this Hall knows in their hearts that England is simply the greatest country in the world”.
“We demand our country back”.
Standing ovation guaranteed.
FILM of the late Rick Mayall, AKA Alan B’stard at his finest.
https://tinyurl.com/y4eq76jp
BBC Scotland in an absolute turmoil, their saviour of the union has resigned. The alternative of Leonard Rossiter (I think that’s his name) has proved to be a complete arse, and Willie Rennie hasn’t even reached that level yet. The bookies favourite, I believe, for the Tories is devoted to the Queen’s eleven, are we about to hear The Sash at the closing of the Scottish party conference.
Who can they turn to, will it be the fragrant Jo Swinson, but this breaks their ‘we don’t cover items covered by the network’ fake rule they bring out when necessary and she has no voice at Holyrood.
Word fae the Coup – which I’m from now on pronouncing cowp, is that if a Vote of No Confidence is won, Boris will not leave and if no Gov of Unity is formed – it is up to him to set the date of the next GE, which he has stated will be after 31/10/19.
The Fixed Term Act – was not well written. In the 14 days (14 days is statutory) after a VoNC is won – the Act is silent as to who actually Governs, and to what extent they can ‘do stuff’.
And yes, it would be down to him to set the GE date.
By closing WM Parl on 9th Sept – even if a VoNC is held on 3/9/19 and won, the end of the 14 day period is when parl is now closed.
WM Parl is formally opened by the Queen. Even if all the other MP’s sit in another building – it will not be deemed the legal government.
We – in Scotland – must have the right to go to the Ballot box before 31/10/19. I don’t think it matters now if its a GE, a Ref2, a P’sV, or a SG election, or a local council opinion poll election – we must have the opportunity of expressing our Sovereign will in a properly held and run election.
A the British Establishment – in all its forms, and from every corner it has infiltrated – will do everything in its power to prevent that happening.
@Jack Murphy
Haha thanks for the Rik Mayall clip. That’s the reality now with Johnson in power. Bring back Spitting Image I say 🙂
Twitter poll:
‘Who would YOU like to see as next leader of Scottish Tories?’
Annie Wells 51%
Murdo Fraser 28%
Adam Tomkins 4%
Other 17%
That’s after 38 mins, 213 votes cast.
😉
jfngw says:
29 August, 2019 at 12:58 pm
BBC Scotland in an absolute turmoil, their saviour of the union has resigned. The alternative of Leonard Rossiter (I think that’s his name) has proved to be a complete arse, and Willie Rennie hasn’t even reached that level yet
I’ve always thought of wee Willie as the Complete Arse’s Complete Arse. 🙂
The British secret services briefed the membership of Inner Privy Council that through their efforts and those of the entire Westminster political spectrum the end of the SNP would not be long delayed since Scots were disillusioned and ready to accept the retention of the Union.
But events in the 2015 General Election just about destroyed the morale of the Unionists after the Scottish electorate just about wiped out their branch office colleagues north of the border returning 56 MP’s from 58 vacancies.
The “Inner Privy Council” authorized the implementation of “plan-b” which included deployment of all available resources against the SNP government.
The leading role in implementing the strategy to destroy the SNP would be removed from politicians and transferred to the Secret Services.
https://caltonjock.com/2019/08/29/will-westminster-proscribe-the-snp-forcing-an-election-in-scotland-returning-ruth-davidson-and-the-lib-dems-to-power-part-2-the-beatification-of-ruth/
Could Ruth’s resignation be another dose of Tory manufactured bullshit?
I wonder what was really ‘discussed’/offered during her private meeting with Boris last week?
Given that she has been spitting nails at him since before he took office, instead of kneecapping him in her resignation speech, you could almost have likened it to a Boris love-in!
Holding on to her Edinburgh seat would still require a fair level of time-consuming commitment plus she would no longer have an excuse to avoid holding surgeries for the minions because as we know, she has never held any. An ordinary MSP is beneath her talents surely.
Are we supposed to believe that the reason for her meeting with Boris was to establish that he was indeed eager to achieve a deal, and she believed him when he confirmed that he was? I presume that any new deal would have to exclude the UK from the new EU taxation laws!
Ah well, time will tell I suppose.
Scenario: New session of parliament following prorogue action.
Speaker would not let May bring back same deal for repeat votes in same session of Parliament. However,this would not apply in new session.
Johnson simply brings back the May deal (acceptable to EU)
Parliament faced with a choice between this May deal and an immediately impending No deal.
Question:
What WOULD Westminster SNP Members of Parliament do?
What SHOULD Westminster SNP Members of Parliament do?
the FM is too much of a good egg to twist the knife
– just on the telly as I write
if there was ever an open goal NELSON MUNTZ moment, this was it
HA – HA
– I wonder what kind of “parachute” roofie has packed, given her constituency seat looks so shaky; her and Keza, the dream team, cagney and lacey, thelma and louse
The First Minister’s Independence Petition continued to grow
Rapidly thanks to Bojo the Clown closing Parliament.
Up 5,000 from yesterday morning at 277,000 signatures.
Go on Bojo announce the end of the Barnett Formula and
Sell off the NHS to your pal Trumpy!
https://www.yes.scot/
There are millions of parents with a lot less wages than Davidson and Partner trouser, who work in godforsaken jobs, some on slave wages and UCS (but not for more than two of their children) who can’t afford the luxury of retiring to the back benches and struggling along on £1200 a week plus expenses to languish in torpor, helping Johann Lamont and Neil Cole Hamilton fill in that day’s Herlald Britland Cryptic Clue Xword.
Nurses in A&E, office cleaners mopping and hoovering at 6 am, bus drivers on the Twilight shift, who still find time for their children without buckling under the pressure.
She met Johnson last week and was given the choice: step down, rather than resign, and you’ll be Baroness Davidson of Rape Clause in a matter of months, or the Dead Tree Scrolls will begin the monstering of Davidson the Remoaner.
Brit Nat politicians are like bookies; you never see a poor one.
Good riddance to a Resident Evil.
@ Jomry
Re Terrible May’s Deal mark x….
It will look like they’re trying if they put it before WM again, and it will burn the clock down a bit further…
But, having gone as far as Proroguing Parl, I think they’ve shown their hand now and its all or nothing.
The RMogg group – IDS has already said its not just the backstop they don’t like about the Deal.
The backstop – which has to be in place for the EU to accept – breaches the terms of the Act of Union with Scotland, as it trades differently with NI compared with Scotland. Hashtag Dissolve the Union…
So for them, No Deal Brexit saves them from the tax haven laws, delivers chaos, makes them a fortune from disaster capitalism, enables them to shut down Holyrood and silence Scottish calls/ability to call indyref2. And the not too small matter of enabling them to make a buck fireselling off our NHS.
It’s thoroughly evil, but its not accidental or mad. It is an extremely well thought out and reasoned plan.
Aye jfngw, the pricks prick!!
But in Scottish Unionist circles there is myriad pricks for competition!!
Would now be a bad time, translate as opportune time, for someone to ask Tom Watson to make another of his wee, BT the sequel, video plea for Scots to REMAIN in the UK cause security..pooling & sharing etc etc…..
What a card oor Tom is…knows his party will…’NOT ALLOW’..us Scots to hold another Indy Ref while going to all that trouble recently in making a video plea to us…so pleading with us to stay in UKOK but simultaneously HIS party insisting we cannot even be given the chance to decide if we want to…seems logical in the Yooniverse….plus we had Ruth D firstly saying if requested another Indy ref should not be denied…THEN…stating the reverse…
You put the Right party in the Left party out…do the Hokey Cokey then swing it all about…you do the Hokey Cokey and turn it all around….that’s what it’s all about..Then…you put the Left party in the Right party out…etc etc..then it ends with…….a cue for…. jazz hands….
ps…Richard Leonard has tweeted something after embargo lifted by HQ…umbongo bongo hippy hippy bongo was what he tweeted..obvs some lefty revolutionary claptrap coded message for peeps like Cat Boyd & co…the new socialist Indies on the block…..chopping block…sorry should not take a RISE out of them….their young at heart…OLD in the head…
The MSP who never worked
She hid behind farm animals, she hid behind scout huts, she hid behind hedges but she mainly hid behind the BBC in Scotland, now she’s hiding behind a child
She doesn’t agree with her new Prime Minister personally or professionally, or indeed on any level whatsoever, she says he’s a liar and a charlaton, but insists that whatever he does Scotland should vote for him just the same
Don’t ever feel the least bit sorry for this lazy brain dead cult following BBC junior reporter, because her whole career has been about making sure you couldn’t ever complain about her and her party’s methods of poverty creation and the theft of Scotland’s assets
Ruth Davidson has to go now because the polls show she would lose ALL her Scottish MPs if there is a GE called now. The Tories will be decimated at the next Holyrood election. Those disasters can now be blamed on Jackson Carlaw.
Ladbrokes has Murdo Fraser at 2/1 favourite.
https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1167015063384940544?s=20
Hopefully, the Liberals lose Shetland to the SNP today.
@Daisy Walker
Thanks for your response, Daisy. While The trajectory does seem to be No deal for the reasons you state, Johnson has repeatedly insisted he is aiming for a deal. Whether he is to be believed is another matter.
However, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the “no backstop” rhetoric is bluff and bluster and the May deal (possibly with some cosmetic tweaks) might be resurrected at the last minute. “Plenty of time for debate” says Johnson – in a very limited timescale because of the prorogue action.
Urgent Impending disaster of No deal may well persuade many anti Brexit MPs to consider voting for the deal to be preferable to letting No deal take its course and an orderly Brexit achieved.
I would hope that SNP MPs in such a scenario would always vote against any kind of Brexit but they would face the same dilemma – the consequence of abstaining or voting against a bad deal -it could be argued – would be to allow a much worse scenario to unfold.
However, this is obviously just speculation at the moment and we will all need to wait to see how this plays out.
In-D-Car Gordon Ross 29.8.19 – Why DID Teresa May’s “Deal” get rejected?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOp_J8xXB9E
Obviously the Tank Commanders resignation planned, why announce it a day before it happened, only one reason, news management. Takes headlines away from Boris in Scotland. The plan is obviously for her to head Better Together during Indyref2 with a promise of a seat in the Lords with perhaps a junior ministerial position in the English Parlliament.
Fantastic series of tweets Michael Gray[GrayonGlasgow] on the case in our Scottish Court. It looks as if our Claim of Right, the position of the Monarch and our smart little legal System in Scotland could be giving the ‘Union Parliament’ [W’minster] a fair run for its money. Making our imperial masters think anyway!
New session started. Just hope it isn’t the ghastly Lord Keen on Defence side.
Murdoch’s Twitter trail should preclude him from succeeding Ruth but we can hope it doesn’t. A car crash Tory MSP as leader would be just the ticket.
I see Ian’s poll has Wells in front. That would be amazing but I suspect the Tory members that bother to vote are not quite that insane.
Wings is getting to be as bad as the Brexiteers with the crazy ideas posted on here.
Things like getting at the SNP for, “Attempting to save the UK from itself and enforcing that argument with, “Far as I know the Scottish Government hasn’t got a mandate to save the UK.
Trouble is that this is really daft thinking. In the first place of course the SG has a mandate to save the United Kingdom for there are only two kingdoms in the United Kingdom and one of them is the Kingdom of Scotland. Thus, until we obtain independence we are one of the two partner kingdoms of the United Kingdom.
Second fact is that Scotland is not ever going to be leaving the United Kingdom. When Scotland decides to return to being independent then Scotland will not be leaving the United Kingdom – Scotland will be ending, or better described as dissolving the United Kingdom. The legal Status Quo Ante after a two partner union ends is both partners return to the status they were in before they joined in union. There cannot be an rUnited Kingdom.
So until Scotland dissolves the union then Scotland is legally an equal partner in the union. No matter that Westminster assumes the status to be otherwise, legally Scotland is one of only two partners in the union.
Like an abused wife in a marriage who gains a legal divorce she gains her degree nisi because she is not treated as she legally is.
However, there is an even more compelling reason for the Scottish Government to attempt to save the United Kingdom from itself and that is because they are not saving the UK from itself they are saving the United Kingdom from the Westminster Establishment – not from the people of England, Wales and N. Ireland and after Scotland does dissolve the union these people are going to be our nearest neighbours – why would we want bad next door neighbours.
Now my point is that people can assume very wrong attitudes that come mainly from Westminster Establishment propaganda and brainwashing – most often far from reality. Think I’m kidding?
Then watch this this numtie:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaDV2rqzSnY
Boris Johnson isn’t aiming for a deal, he’s crossing his fingers and hoping the EU will fold, that’s not politics, it’s bad poker based on a pair and a known history of bluffing
The EU are the Doc Holiday of card players, and not with Mrs Plum cards like Boris is used to
All the European papers castigating Johnson for being anti-democracy. In 2014 lots of European voices were not in favour of Scotland being independent. Few will speak against a Yes vote now.
kapelmeister says:
29 August, 2019 at 12:11 pm
A more significant thing than Mooth’s resignation today is treacherous Corbyn now saying he would delay indyref2 during “the formative years” of a Labour government. He’s so deluded he thinks he can string Scotland along in the way Labour used to do when they were dominant north of the border.
——————
The response to this should be straightforward, then. The SNP should prop up a Corbyn government not on the promise of a S30 in a few years’ time, but only once the S30 has been granted. In other words, granting that S30 should be the very first thing a Corbyn govt does if it wants to remain in power.
But actually, simply asking for a S30 is still behaving like a colony. To prop up Corbyn, the SNP should be demanding that all constitutional and broadcasting matters are devolved, so we never again have to go through the absurdity of begging a foreign capital for permission to hold a referendum. Then we restore some balance at the BBC and hold iref2 whenever suits us.
“Thanks for maybe granting us permission to have a meaningful vote for once, in a few years’ time, when it suits you, sir” — surely the SNP can do better than this FFS.
The news media banging on about Ruth Davidson stepping down from leadership as if she’s out of politics when of course that’s not what she’s doing, she’s preparing to lead the next better together campaign against Independence so she can achieve what she really really wants
A seat beside Baroness Annabel Goldie as Baroness Ruth Davidson
Now that’s a proper useless politician’s real ambition, £300 per day and as many political interventions as you like with no consequences and no scrutiny, in fact pretty much what she does now, except she gets it for life
Except if Independence wins then she’s Rubber Ducked because they won’t be allowing any Scottish folk in their big private subsidised dinner and wine talky hoose then
Really enjoying all this politicking with the promise of a turbulent next few months.
Have to say that Boris and Cummings have played a blinder and to see a PM be so positive and resourceful is a real sight to behold.
What a difference from May’s indecision and lack of direction.
Also, it shows up the SNP and NS in a poor light and totally useless.
I also think that they have put paid to Scottish independence for quite a while.
Why, you may ask?
The UK will leave the EU on 31st October.
Not much will change thereafter and most of the dire consequences will be shown to be nonsense.
Boris will win a GE with a big majority.
Demand for Scottish independence will dissipate as most people will be reluctant to leave friends and family in a prosperous UK for the big unknown of a foreign EU.
The SNP have left it far too late. All talk and no action!
Just my take on what I think will happen.
BTW – just love Joe.
Lenny. She would have a little problem in making the case for what she’s just bailed out from.
Not ruling your hypothesis out though.
The next election here, or there, is going to be a defacto indyref2, and there’s very little anyone (outside the SNP)can do about it. Excepting its timing maybe.
Want to understand why Alex Salmond sought a Section 30 order from David Cameron before the Independence referendum in 2014? It’s because he didn’t trust him nor the Westminster government and wanted to guarantee International recognition of a successful Yes vote immediately.
International recognition is what matters most, even with a referendum and a majority vote International recognition is not a certainty, you only need look at Catalonia to see how true that is.
If your serious about a better understanding of why a section 30 order is a good thing then I suggest reading this paper, written in 2013 by Jure Vidmar, a Professor of Public International Law in the Faculty of Law at Maastricht University and Research Fellow at St John’s College at the University of Oxford.
I think he knows what he’s talking about, it’s worth noting also what he thought back then about the referendum question.
“Should Scotland be an Independent country?”. Despite the doubts of Scotland In Union and the Electoral Commission, Prof Vidmar describes it as:
“Textually, the Scottish referendum question is exemplary in its clarity”
The paper can be downloaded here:
“The Scottish Independence Referendum in an International Context”
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2410255
“ Dr Jim @ 0330 pm “ .How very perceptive if you Dr Jim.
Jings! Did I just hear a cock crow three times.
Shurley schome inadvertent mistake?
Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 3.04
Corbin seem to be under the impression that he will get SNP support no matter what,as the SNP have to get on board to stop Johnstone. They would be portrayed as the midwives of Brexit if they didn’t back him.So even now with his Country and its Parliament about to go down the stank he’s trying to play politics and press the advantage he seems to have.
But the important thing is he only “Seems” to have an advantage,our Country is no following,we’re staying well away from their stank.
That’s some name yer posting under,what’s the BDSM but stand for?
You know fine well what it stands for Liz 🙂
Also , she doesn’t want to “ carry the can” for the “drubbing” the Tories are due to get in Scotland at the forthcoming GE . Thereafter she can “ make a comeback” and “ pull them up from ground zero” to circa today’s dizzy heights possibly. A “ BBC Scotlandshire hero again”??
@Robert J. Sutherland
Have you read that paper you downloaded yet, like you promised? 🙂
Has Swinson called for a statue of Ruth Davidson yet?
The Unionists are in despair and so they should be. They trashed Scotland instead of building up a future for our children.
More and more people are losing their reticence and questioning government. Dozens of opportunities today for me to gently sigh “If only a few more people had voted YES in 2014, we would just be spectators to this tragedy and not its victims”
@ Breeks 8:20 am.
Excellent post, I would add one point to the ‘ we are Sovereign but we don’t act sovereign ‘ and that is that probably over half the people of Scotland, and I include Indy supporters, do not understand sovereignty or the absolute power it bestows. Westminster have used ignorance ruthlessly.
So, the BBC’s ‘First Minister in Waiting’, and the BBC’s ‘winner’ of the last general election in Scotland (she really wasn’t), has now resigned, since even she can see that having dictator Johnson as prime minister is a vote loser in Scotland for the Tories.
Next.
….ah Mr. Fraser, congratulations on becoming Scottish branch ‘leader’ of the Tories. The BBC are hailing you as a ‘breath of fresh air’ in Scottish politics, and the next Tory ‘First Minister in waiting’ who will ‘obliterate Sturgeon’..what do you think?
The BBC will be working incredibly hard on Ruth Davidson’s achievements documentary as we speak, ah the highs the lows the stresses the strains the grit the determination to succeed with gushing sentiments from friends and colleagues past and present, then after an hour of this it’ll be the what comes next for our Ruth
Well we know don’t we
Deck @ 3.36
? Not in politics I don’t…
Has Murdo thrown his bowler hat into the ring yet?
@ThePnr
“its going to require a belter of a plan from the Scottish Government to get another Indyref. We really need see that plan now though”
Simple question, why do we need to see that plan NOW?
2 parts to the answer. When I say “Now” it needs to be a plant can deliver an indyref within 3 months of Brexit otherwise bad thing will have happened and the Unionist argument will be the only way is up so working back that pretty much means now.
Secondly people need to know there is someway out of this shambles otherwise they will lose faith and either give up or look to more extreme ways to achieve the desired outcome. That risks the SNP losing seats in any snap GE and fragementing the Yes movement. We desperately need a plan to unite around.
Thepnr @ 23:26 (28.Aug),
Well, I guess I can show my face again now without fear of incurring the gentle insistence of Thepnr. =grin= (I’ve been busy converting computer files like a maniac, and each task has proved a welcome distraction from the other! =laugh=)
Yes, it was worth a read, particularly in one incidental aspect that may have a particularly useful bearing on matters closer to home and yet to come, but otherwise I fear that I may disappoint in not finding in there what you evidently have found.
Yes, of course, the absolute need to have a win, and furthermore a win that carries conviction and can’t easily be gainsaid. However I don’t share the author’s apparent view that any substantive vote can somehow be pushed aside regardless. The subsequent handling of the “advisory” EU referendum has surely laid that particular phantom to rest. In that aspect I think the article has dated. (Not to mention all the reprehensible jiggery-pokery that was egregiously perpetrated “off-piste”, so to speak, during the subsequent campaigns and which effectively nullified both.)
What I found most amusing actually was the author’s evident lawyerly annoyance at what the Czechs and Slovaks did, which is basically to shatter all of his careful caveats and just get on with it. =grin= And in that there is a lesson, surely. The art of politics is not the same as the practice of law, even though the two do (occasionally!) meet. It’s the crucial difference I’ve been banging on about, between being reactive and proactive, operating cleverly within a rigid framework on the one hand and “thinking outside the box” and thereby inspiring a substantial change of public attitude on the other. The author may be perfectly right in claiming that there was no majority in Czechoslovakia at the time for a breakup – though as he said, no-one was consulted anyway, so it’s a best guess – but there is indisputably a majority for the status quo in each now. That’s the crucial difference between politics and law.
Having read the article, it troubles me somewhat that we now have a leader who may be rather inclined to the lawyerly side without any obvious counterbalance. (It’s quite a burden to carry.) In IR1 we had a great symbiosis of AS+NS, I suggest, each with strengths that complemented the other, one more inspirational and inclined to go for broke and the other carefully thinking things out. We need a measure of both. Maybe what we ideally need is another inspired pairing, though I can’t think who the other might be.
Lastly, what I was hoping to find, not realising beforehand the nature of the text, was some revelation – or even just a hint – of how the (as you would say) necessary agreement for a “sanctioned” IR2 could be made to happen. That was an expectation too far, I suppose. But it’s the most absolutely crucial aspect of the current impasse. It’s clearly what troubles those many folk on here (and elsewhere) who are getting increasingly restless, and who deserve better, despite their sometime excesses, than to be casually dismissed by others as merely a legion of trolls.
It’s the same feeling reflected in the headline of Lesley Riddoch’s article in today’s National (though I haven’t had time to read through it yet).
Still, thanks for the link. There is much in it to mull over. I do believe though that when the time comes, a demonstrable win for indy will completely deflate the BritNat balloon, and though much argy-bargy may follow, we will be free. Free at last… (Well, you know the rest of that inspirational MLK speech.)
Sarah Smith on BBC site saying after Boris becoming PM and the loss to Better Together of the “dynamic and charismatic “ Ruth Davidson ,that more and more people are saying they support independence.
Hashtag gobsmacked!
I remember David Steel’s ‘Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government’. Seems funny now.
Ruth Davidson’s message to women as she departs seems to be ‘Go back to your kitchens and prepare for motherhood’. Such an inspiration to all mothers out there.
Anybody hearing how things are going in Shetland ?
In February 1933 Chancellor Hitler pressures the 87 year old head of state President Hindenburg to issue the Reichstag Fire Decree.
In August 2019 Prime Minister Johnson pressures the 93 year old head of state Queen Elizabeth – distracted by the troubles of an errant son – to prorogue parliament.
“All polls for over a year show a remain majority.”
Do they? I think that’s a rather loose interpretation of the word “all”.
Been reading some of the tweets from the Scottish Court case today.
Very interesting.
I’m wondering if, courts being courts, the judge might make a decision that gives both sides a win… and neither.
What if the judge decides that there can be no Prorogue for Scotland (where the people are Sovereign) – and the Queen has different responsibilities and powers in Scotland compared to rUK, but that she can prorogue for WM since Sovereignty there rests with the Crown – but since Scotland’s Governance ultimately (at the moment) rests at WM….
If the Judge does come away with something of this ilk, the SNP will have to decide – fight for Scotland’s Parliament (and they will have been given legal power to their elbow) – or continue to try and usurp England’s vote for Brexit.
The cards can fall in many different ways on this one.
One thing is for certain – the people of Scotland are not Sovereign – if they have no way of democratically expressing that Sovereignty. For the first time in living history we have a pro indy Scottish parliament, at a time of UK national crisis.
We must be allowed the opportunity to express ourselves at the ballot box, (in some form or another) and we must not lose Holyrood.
For anyone, from anywhere, to say we cannot have a vote on a matter of National importance – I say, aye we can.
Suspect game plan
Boris forces no deal immediately calls general election, stands on i delivered and now we must move forward together, labour stands on trying to take us back in and loses, snp stand on indy and win. How indy follows i dont know
@ kapelmeister @ 3:38 pm
“Has Swinson called for a statue of Ruth Davidson yet?”
Lol kapelmeister…not yet but I think she has commissioned a sculptor for her OWN statue….when she LOSES her seat in next GE.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Well done in eventually getting around to it, even if it was a chore 🙂 What I took most from the paper was what happened in Montenegro, that was an eye opener.
Outside of the 1991–92 “Yugoslav independence package,” Montenegro opted for independence in 2006.
Unlike the referenda held in the context of the dissolution of the SFRY, the referendum in Montenegro was legally binding and triggered a constitutional formula for secession. It was also an exception with regard to the prescribed majority.
The opinion polls were suggesting a fifty-fifty split between the “unionists” and the“secessionists.” Given the recent history of armed conflict in the area as well as the proximity of Kosovo, which had not declared independence at the time, the EU feared a potential outburst of violence and a spill-over effect if Montenegro declared independence with virtually half of its population opposing this move. The “unionists” were also threatening a boycott of the referendum. This move would further delegitimize the vote.
In response, the EU imposed the Act on Referendum on State Legal Status of the Republic of Montenegro (Independence Referendum Act), which prescribed a minimum turnout and a higher burden on the “secessionists.” Under this formula, the constitutionally entrenched mechanism for secession would be triggered by 55 percent of all votes being cast for secession, with a turnout of at least 50 percent plus one of eligible voters.
Such a majority was designed to give the “unionists” a reasonable hope of winning the referendum and thus averted their boycott. Greater legitimacy was also achieved by avoiding the prospect of Montenegro becoming independent by a close 50 percent vote. Independence was in the end supported by a narrow margin of 55.53 percent of all votes cast with a turnout of 86.49 percent of all those eligible to vote.
The barely achieved threshold has been described as a political gamble, as it was quite possible that the result could have fallen in the “grey zone” between 50 and 55 percent. In such circumstance,Montenegro’s government would have been legally unable to declare independence. At the same time it would have viewed the referendum result as a mandate to further weaken the State Union. The unionists would have viewed the result as a victory and demanded immediate parliamentary elections and closer ties with Belgrade.
Montenegro was not a member of the EU in 2006 and in fact is still waiting for its membership to be approved. Why then was it possible for the EU to dictate the terms of their referendum and stipulate not just a simple majority but that at least 55% of the vote must be in support of Independence before they would recognise it as legitimate?
You won’t be surprised after reading that to realise that it can be quite difficult to become Independent. Though of course I would argue that Scotlands case is unique. I’m sure the Better Together mob though would disagree.
Alex Salmond was right to have Cameron sign up to a Section 30 oirder that put a simple majority result beyond doubt and one that would be recognised not just in Westminster but Internationally.
It would be “nice” to have the same for Indyref2 but it’s not a necessity. Be prepared for trouble and strife if we go ahead with a referendum without one because that is surely what we will get.
I do not fear such an outcome, but if at all possible it would make sense to avoid such a scenario. Wouldn’t you think?
laukat @ 15:58,
I do tend to agree that a danger lurks there on both counts. We are having to take a lot on assurance at the moment. Probably necessary under current condtions, though it would be good to feel there is definite intent in the leadership – a steel spring within the ever-so-soft velvet glove.
But the current London brouhaha is surely still working in our favour, is it not? A carefully-constructed BritNat figurehead has just crashed-and-burned, leaving behind the wisp of a frankly implausible excuse. And there is an actual election being pursued this very day with maximal effort and intent, with potentially significant consequences.
Maybe those “in the know” have good reason for believing that we will still be arguing the toss in a year’s time. But I doubt those now in the driving seat in London agree – it’s keep moving fast or sink in the quicksand. So I am increasingly of the persuasion that we will be plunged out at Halloween regardless, so I just hope that there is a plan (of whatever letter) for dealing more expeditiously with that event than has been intimated. Though there have been some hints…
Time for the SNP to play hardball. No section 30, no powers over broadcasting, no opening of the UK accounts then get to fuck. Have your hard brexit. We’re going to be leaving with the funds you thought you had secured in 2014.
IF Sturgeon has a plan B, and it’s what some of us think it is, rather than what that other some of us think, or even some others, not to mention those others that don’t think she’s got one at all, even a Plan A who’d have thunk it, then today in the CofS as described incredibly ably by Michael Gray is it seems to me, highly significant win or lose, and it could even be it’s Dunlop done the deed. Or not of course, maybe the plan C is to make people think there’s a plan B but really it’s always been plan A but not neccessarily the plan A some people think it is and others don’t thnk it is at all.
I think that cleared that one up.
@Colin Alexander says: 28 August, 2019 at 5:49 pm:
” … I’ve basically stopped listening to all this mince:”
It would really be nice if you had, Colin. It would even be nicer if you didn’t keep telling us all the time how much you hate Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP and the SG and how useless they all are.
The strange thing is that the SG is far and away the best performing legislature in the United Kingdom and probably also the British Isles. Not to mention they are the only party in the entire World whose sole Raison d’être is to regain Scottish independence.
Everything they do, including running Scotland well, is dedicated towards winning back Scotland’s independence. Another point is that the SNP, as a party, paints with a very broad brush and yet of all the United Kingdom parties the SNP are probably the party that is most free of in-party in-fighting.
So how can it be that they are the only political party dedicated to Scottish independence and support for Scottish independence has never, since the SNP first formed, been so high?
How can the demand for Scottish independence be so high, and ever increasing, if not by the only political party whose main aim is Scottish independence? I can only conclude they must be doing something right.
Now let’s just consider one of your favourite claims – the claim that Nicola Sturgeon cannot clearly see the way forward while, by inference, you can. Well Nicola often wears glasses with clear lenses. Could it be you wear colour tinted glasses with the political shade you want to see? You always sound to me like the many Loony Left supporters I have met in my life. None of whom, no matter what Loony Left Party they favoured ever got anywhere and neither has any of the parties they favoured.
I get the impression that when we are all out dancing in the streets, celebrating Scottish independence, you will be sitting indoors mumbling to yourself, “If it hadn’t been for the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government we would have been independent before Donald Dewar died”.
Honestly, Colin, I just have to laugh when you post your comments.
Missed out a / in my last post.
My own view of the quote from the paper if the last 5 paragraphs beginning at “Montenegro was not a member of the EU in 2006”.
Sorry about that.
She’s gonna come back for Indy ref 2. Doing a Broontervevention or Roothtervention roadshow double act. Wait and see.
@Daisy Walker 4:27pm
Well said.
@Thepnr / RJS
The problem with that paper is this:
“This article begins from the premise established in James Crawford and Alan Boyle’s report, Referendum on the Independence of Scotland: International Law Aspects (Referendum report), that, in the case of independence, Scotland would become a new state without automatic EU membership, while the “rump” UK would continue the UK’s present international personality, including EU membership.”
Which as C&B say themselves very openly at the beginning of their paper (Annex A) was PRECISELY the remit given them by the UK Gov, who were effecively their client. In the same way as Cherry & Co were Aidan O’Neill’s client today in the CofS.
And it’s something Salmond said about the BBC but applies to a lot of institutions, they tended to adopt the UK point of view as gospel, institutional bias in other words.
That article is interesting perhaps, but is fully biased by default, from its very starting point – one which could (and was) argued against by other constitutional experts. But from that bad beginning I didn’t read more, as it’s unlikely jure vidmar considered separation or dissolution, only secession.
Anyways, I’m off, to see if there’s any more lost episodes and get more
whisky nylons knicker elasticscripts.Has Alex Cole-Hallucinogen seen or heard anything interesting today yet?
@Famous15
I too raised an eyebrow when Sarah Smith wrote that “more and more people are saying they will vote SNP”.
But she must have got clearance from PQuay or her mother.
Sign of the times perhaps.
PS:
Young Michael’s updates from the Ct of Session was interesting and a preliminary report tomorrow and a full judgement on the 6th Sept. Well done to him.
Thepnr @ 16:34,
Well, there were various phantoms raised there in order to scare the fearful (or give ammunition to desperate Britats seeking to overthrow “the will of the people” =cough=), of which that was but one. One might wish though for the concomitant “silver lining” of having the EU oversee the whole process. (Can’t see that happening somehow!)
I don’t deny that an “unsanctioned” IR2 brings an additional bunch of risks, but neither can we alllow ourselves to be strung along for-ever-and-a-day, whether by BoJo or Corby. The old Strathclyde Region took things on in a smaller way over water privatisation, and that succeeded. Maybe the calculation being made here is that the London junta would rather chance a direct confrontation (and possible win) than have an almighty ongoing escalating sore to handle.
The likely upcoming UKGE will focus minds wonderfully, I expect. Look at how many eruptions from Rip Van Broon (as Tasmina niftily reframes him) are appearing at present. Something must surely be up!
@dadsarmy
There is much in the paper I disagree with, and like you the starting point is one. On the hole then when he isn’t talking about Scotland it’s very informative as to what we might learn about how the International community view such things.
That’s what’s important and I suspect Alex Salmond was perfectly aware of such things. He started the whole business of a Section 30 order, I guess he knew what he was doing.
whole FFS lol
Im honestly loving the socialists in the UK and their reactions to the fairly normal parliamentary process.
With these people the underlying principle is ‘the end justifies the means’. They are too thick to know that the means IS the end. You cant ‘save democracy’ by physically overturning a result FFS
dadsarmy @ 16:55,
Yes, though the article was independent, like you I also got the same impression while reading it as with the Crawford+Boyle commissioned effort.
The author does make a stab though at seeing both sides. He mutters eg. in the footnotes about the nature of some of the indy questions posed, but does also recognise the reasonableness of the motives behind them. He also unhesitatingly dismisses the imposition of a “poison pill” quorum in our case. He at least has learnt from former (mal)practice.
@Thepnr
S30 is indeed the gold standard, and worth holding out for to an extent. The question is, when does it all have to go ahead even without one? And a question some in the grassroots are asking is, is this even being considered? The problem being those who know would be stark staring bonkers if they told us and therefore told the other side as well. It’s all a Catch-22 for us footsloggers. Silence in the ranks! On the other hand of course it might be going ahead anyway. While attention is focussed elsewhere, or even using other things as an excuse. Or a red herring, it’s definitely red herring season, pickled and soused. Or at least I hope it is 🙂
@William Purves says: 28 August, 2019 at 6:50 pm:
” … The Treaty was signed between the two countries, any one of which can repeal it.”
Err! No! William – the Treaty of Union was not signed by two countries – it was signed between two kingdoms one of which was composed of three countries but which is now a kingdom that consists of two countries and part of another country.
Ireland is still a country but it is politically partitioned. The way things are going just now there is a great possibility that the country, the former Kingdom of Ireland, may soon be reunited outside the Kingdom of England.
@Thepnr 3:23
This is an excellent paper. Thanks
It clearly makes the point that the Indy1 would be compromised due to the EU question. And of course thats exactly what happened.
It also said our winning majority of 50% + 1 was acceptable and that Referendum question was clear. No issue with the wording or majority threshold.
I understand your point about why AS wanted a Section 30. It made sense then.
“Under international law, such referenda generally do not create a “right to independence,” and, even if successful, they only rarely result in the emergence of a new state.
Independence is not an entitlement under international law, and
states usually oppose any such aspirations of their sub-units.
Scotland seems to be one of the few exceptions to this general pattern, as the referendum is formalized by an agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom (UK) and Scotland.”
The UK had effectively agreed to accepting the outcome of the 2014 referendum.
However, given the arguments and threats during the run up to Indy, and given the behaviour of Westminster Parties and Government since, I am not sure I’d trust them to honour, with or without a Section 30, either last time or now.
Where this article falls down, is that it fails to recognise that Scotland is an equal partner in a Union and is a country in its own right, with its own laws, borders, religion and culture.
It’s a legal interpretation and of course, also fails to recognise that the UK Parliament operates in reality as an English Parliament and there is a democratic deficit.
Finally, it recognises that there is ‘negotiation time’ during these exit processes where it could be possible, for example, residents of Scotland to remain in the EU while Scotland emerges as a new state. (See below)
“A more plausible argument is, however, presented by David Edward, who not only accepts the premise that there would be no automatic accession to the EU for Scotland but also sees the independence of Scotland as a matter coming within the purview of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU), which regulates the circumstances in which a member state wishes to leave the EU. Pursuant to Article 50, the future relationship of Scotland with the EU would be subject to negotiations and to a two-year withdrawal period, unless negotiated otherwise. Negotiations would have to be conducted in good faith and result in the amendment of EU treaties to acknowledge an independent Scotland and a diminished UK.126 Scots would thus never lose EU citizenship, and Scotland would not accede to the EU as a new member state. Rather, Scotland would emerge as a new state under international law, but under EU law the territory would never leave the Union.”
This is hopeful, yet I suspect it completely disappears with a ‘No Deal’ and this may well be why the current cabinet prefer to go ‘No Deal’. It gives them the biggest chance of frustrating Scotland’s ambitions.
This is why I said previously, the SNP were doing the right thing by blocking No Deal. If there is a ‘Negotiation Period’ in Brexit, there will be time to make our own deals.
If, as we all now fear, it’s a confirmed ‘No Deal’ the SNP needs to change tack.
It’s like Scotland and England at football, Holyrood have plenty of talent, but it cannot compete with the size, depth, resources and experience of Westminster. (Johnson and his cabinet will have all the legal advice and strategy that he wants)
And we all say it, but perhaps not fully believe it. Westminster are determined and desperate to hold onto Scotland.
We will know this is true when Johnson announces his ‘New Government Plans’ in a short time… there will be money on the table for Scotland.
We are not getting out this Union without a very dirty fight. Thats the way I see it if ‘No Deal’ is successful.
Thepnr @ 17:01,
It’s amazing just how many variations there have been. Horses for courses, I suppose. Bosnia-Herzegovina had their referendum after declaring independence first, heh, heh. I rather liked the Baltic ones, which rather presumed that they were merely restarting after an unfortunate interruption, and just needed a nod from the folks. Sadly, our interruption has been rather longer.
(Oh, and I had previously meant to mention, another notable change from back then is the complete exorcisation of the spectre of being summarily ejected by the EU. If anything, that one is now haunting the other side.)
Good news – Bad News
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/
@Mac
“Where this article falls down, is that it fails to recognise that Scotland is an equal partner in a Union and is a country in its own right, with its own laws, borders, religion and culture.”
I formed exactly the same opinion, it was a good call on his part about the EU referendum casting doubt on whatever result came about in the Scottish referendum. Credit where it’s due.
My own opinion is that we need to be prepared to go ahead with a referendum without a Section 30 order if that’s what it takes. I’m prepared to wait until we know for definite what is happening with Brexit and for that request to be made.
A refusal will be unacceptable and we take it from there fully aware of the consequences of doing so. Nobody has said it would ever be easy, if it’s possible though it has to be worth trying to make it as easy and painless as possible.
Never forget around 50% of the population of Scotland want nothing to do with Independence. No one has the right to trample all over their beliefs and support for the Union.
The answer is that we need to take as many of them as we can with us and bring them over to our side. Remember how shattered you felt on the morning of the 19th September 2014?
I think that feeling will be doubled for those that want to remain in the Union when we have a narrow majority vote for Independence. Their pain will be real, all we can do is try to make things as painless as possible. That’s the reality.
We’re all Jock Tamson’s bairns after all.
Measles has engulfed England and apparently that means that the UK has lost its health rating because of it, so SKY news reports this as *While the UK has lost its rating on measles other parts of the country have been successful in the vaccination program*
Don’t mention the name Pike
call me dave @ 17:43,
Ach, if you tried to follow the many Labour twists and turns on everything under the sun, you would end up looking like a corkscrew. One which in the event wouldn’t actually function properly. This parliamentary jigging is necessary, but it’s looking more and more like a rerun of 1979. In which Labour will again try to palm off responsibility for their congenital ineffectiveness on the SNP.
me @ 17:54,
(Oops – sorry for the unintended surfeit of italics.)
@Thepnr
“Never forget around 50% of the population of Scotland want nothing to do with Independence. No one has the right to trample all over their beliefs and support for the Union.
It seems you misundertood me.
When I talk about a dirty fight, I am not talking about people who vote against independence, (I do think there will be a much larger majority for YES this time around) what I am referring to Westminster Government and the tactics that they will employ.
Thepnr @ 17:48,
If we can just reach and turn all those who had a twinge of “buyers’ regret” right afterward then went on to vote as they did in 2015, we’ll win.
I don’t buy this “new mandate” nonsense. Labour should be careful for what they wish, since the SNP are more likely to get it than they will.
Yup, there will need to be a process of healing for those who couldn’t bring themselves to trust a new era on our own. (The few recalcitrants who do take themselves off to England or NI – supposing they are able – will not be missed.)
But past events elsewhere in the world suggest that there are many who wll quickly recalibrate to the new circumstances and begin to quietly appreciate it, while no doubt unable to resist the temptation to loudly grumble about it as well. That’s just the nature of (some) people.
@Mac
Sorry if you misunderstood and I mislead you, that part of my comment wasn’t addressed to you but to everybody that reads Wings. I think you’ll find I pretty much agree with al, you say including the potential for a “dirty fight” which as you say won’t come from the people of Scotland but from the Westminster government.
It really is cringeworthy watching the ultra unionist STV news laud Ruth Davidson, then fawn wildly over her decision to quit as leader.
In reality the coward Davidson is quitting the branch managers hot seat because she has no power and is widely loathed.
STV evening news with virtually a full scale documentary on “ the life & times of “ Ruth Davidson “ . No doubt all will be “ archived” to be beamed to the masses on her “ comeback Better together 2 show” . Quite pathetic for a political party totally discredited in Scotland except in the predominantly “ I’m all right jack greed is good areas of our country”
Alas, my old joke will no longer work.
Q: What’s the difference between the Leader of North Korea and Ruth Davidson?
A: One is the Leader of a sycophantic political Party, is beloved by State Media, doesn’t cease looking for photo-ops in promoting themselves alongside military hardware and is into centralising power at the expense of ordinary people. The other is Kim Jong-un.
The Treaty of Union (1706/7) was not signed by two countries – it was signed between two kingdoms one of which WAS composed of three countries but which is now a kingdom that consists of ONE COUNTRY and part of another country.
____
Wales is NOT part of England and has not been since 21 December 1993. (Welsh Language Act 1993 Sch. 2, as amended).
The “ potty prof “ on reporting Pathetic Quay actually attempting to compare RD with our long serving FM who has unselfishly sacrificed many years of her own “ personal life” for her country ( Scotland), and continues ( thankfully) to do so .
I notice BBC Scotland are reporting that Audit Scotland are critical of the Scottish Government (for the umpteenth time). This time it is about a target to recruit 800 GPs over ten years. Apparently, information is limited but it does prevent Audit Scotland from stating it will be difficult. That’s some crystal ball they have.
Maybe wee roothie can go back to work for the bbc
in her bovver boots
wee shite that she is
Oops! I left out ‘not’ after ‘does’
Channel Four News discussing the state of the Union
if one percent of wingers joined the scots tory party
– they could probably vote it out of existence at its next party conference
plus selloff and divvy up the assets
– its win-win
– public nuisance, tractorous 5th column, conspiracy of psychopaths – removed
AND
you made a few bob on the deal; that dark money could come in handy
(O/T but responding to comments.)
Hi Thepnr and Fergus Green. You may find this web site of interest – “Dundee Gig Time Machine”.
https://dundeegig.weebly.com/
It’s been put together by the guy behind the “Retro Dundee” web site. (Link to an example page):-
https://retrodundee.blogspot.com/2009/02/bowling-alley-marketgait.html
“?The idea behind the Dundee Gig Time Machine is for it to be an extension to a blog I did a while back called, Retro Dundee.
Retro Dundee features lots of gigs relating to a specific 3 decade period in Dundee’s past – namely the 1960’s – 1970’s – 1980’s.
However, despite the large quantity highlighted on Retro Dundee, there were still far too many gigs to have given each one a mention individually.
Dundee Gig Time Machine now helps fill the gaps by presenting a more comprehensive list of gigs from this era.
Gigs listed here are mostly out-of-town acts who visited Dundee as part of their official nationwide tour – there are not many local acts as such because there are plenty of Dundee’s own home-grown acts already showcased on Retro Dundee, which is continuing to be viewed to this day by the way – and has now had over 2 million visitors!”
They are both worth dipping into.
Davidson has been a fraud and a failure. She was n more than a media creation. She’s getting out before the whole thing collapses. She had one job, to play the role of queen bee of bettertogetherness and roll back demand for Indy. In fairness to her that was impossible given her party’s antics at WM.
Several more opponents down, and several more steps on the road to Indy.
“If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”
Ruth getting her lying British Nationalist erse booted out the door by Boris,
what a day to be alive.
Hi Thepnr and Fergus Green.
This may be of interest also.
https://bowlinalley.weebly.com/
Has untRuth Davidson had a wee nudge to go maybe, especially if there is going to be a snap GE at any time this year. Somethings amiss, she wouldn’t give up that massive £100k wage she takes from the public purse without either having a lucrative new easy peasy job to go to, or being told she is toast anyway. Gone before pushed.
Re;Dr Jim@5.50pm
Yes funny how they can’t bare to say ‘Scotland’ unless it’s Scotland is sh**e, SNP very very bad. Of course they say ‘other parts of the country’ because they know full well that people will say ‘eh, what parts of what country?’. Or rather, they won’t even ask themselves that because the ‘country’ is England so that’s OK then.
Ps fingers and toes crossed for ShetlandSNP, and Glasgow(?) council election.
@Brian Doonthetoon
Great link, cheers.
Confused
I am going to give your suggestion some consideration. It is £25 for the year (possibly less, their web page suggests) – maybe we’ve all been too nice, perhaps we should ‘invade england’ 21st century style. At the very least we send the shivers right up ’em and they would for sure want shot of us.
So – who else wants to go on a Crusade? Pretendy Tory. our Mission, to parachute behind enemy lines during the hours of darkness, join their ranks of imbeciles, raid and confuse the enemy, cause them to rot from within.
I am giving this serious consideration.
mr thms says:
29 August, 2019 at 6:55 pm
I notice BBC Scotland are reporting that Audit Scotland are critical of the Scottish Government (for the umpteenth time). This time it is about a target to recruit 800 GPs over ten years. Apparently, information is limited but it does prevent Audit Scotland from stating it will be difficult. That’s some crystal ball they have.
Do they mention the difficulties Scotland has because we do not control immigration policy or the likely loss of EU staff from our NHS? Nah – thought not!
I suspect Audit Scotland. Who is in charge and what is their history. I do hope they are not anti Scottish.
It is very important for a country to have a good honest audit system. It does not need one which itself is corrupt.
Child care system coming in next year is the same and probably recruitment is dragging for the same reasons. 🙁
PS:
I see Jackie Bird’s replacement has been announced.
I think the BBC misreporting Scotland piece on Audit Scotland Report article was aimed at the byelection – voting still open!
Apparently antibiotic resistance could kill humanity before climate change.
I’d wager this shitfest of a UK government thinks it’s a bloody competition and are doing their upmost to kill humanity before antibiotic resistance does.
It’s not like they have to worry as nefarious cockroaches* aren’t part of the human race.
*no offense intended to ordinary decent cockroaches.
the current auditor has a knack of appearing on tele saying things are challenging (life is) and we could do with more money.
Never tells us where the money is coming from.
Poor Willie Rennie, he sounds heartbroken that his spiritual leader has resigned.
Ruth Davidson looked Boris Johnston straight in th eye and wanted a straight answer ha ha, two English politicians giving an answer never mind a truthful answer what a farce, but I feel for her as being the only person well the only politician in the world to have a baby aye it’s a hard life.
Remember when Jim Murphy was lauded as Saviour of the Union?
That went well for his Red Tory supporters in the press, next they lauded Kezia Dugdale with Kenny Farquharson telling us that she was likely to be the next FM don’t you know. Of course it didn’t go to plan and she left the stage after her rumble in the jungle for big bucks failed miserably with the Scottish public.
So they handed the baton to Righton Leftbuttock in the hope of salvaging what they had left of an evr diminishing voter base. Alas it has continued to diminish and poor Righton will be on his way out soon. Might even be in the next few weeks. At under 10% in the polls I’d walk if I were him, thankfully I’m not so I’ll have to wait and see.
The biggie though, the buffalo rider has quit. Who saw that coming? The great hope of Unionists throughout the UK has thrown in the towel before the fight really starts. The cry ws NO Surrender and then sj=he just uped and went, meekly surrendering. I really don’t know who the next saviour of the Union might be, the list of candidates doesn’t look that promising.
I doubt it matters now who they pick, it’s over and the Union is finished. Just a matter now of getting formal approval from the Scottish people and that will be that.
Good luck Ruth in finding a new job, competition might be intense as you’ll shortly have another 13 Tory ex MP’s looking for new jobs too. You’d best be quick then, but you knew that eh?.