Contenders ready
The Sunday Herald ran an extraordinary article on page 2 yesterday, and by the time we’d finished being startled by what nonsense it was, it set us wondering about why.
The piece triggered a demented, vitriolic outburst on social media from the founder of a semi-well-known Scottish website, furiously and bizarrely demanding apologies from a number of pro-independence sites which had – entirely correctly – warned that the SNP ran the real risk of losing its Holyrood majority at last year’s election, despite the Herald’s and the blogger’s repeated insistence that it definitely wouldn’t.
The newspaper had run a controversial story making the assertion last April, falsely claiming that the ubiquitous psephologist and academic Professor John Curtice had advised Yes supporters to give their list votes to smaller pro-independence parties at the following month’s election rather than the SNP.
But the piece had been rather light on any actual quotes to that effect – not to mention somewhat out of character for the Prof’s careful political neutrality – and when we asked the respected analyst if the Herald’s report had accurately represented his views, he suggested they’d been somewhat exaggerated.
So we were a bit surprised to see the paper repeat the trick yesterday.
“Indy supporters who voted Green did not help Unionists or harm SNP, says academic
TACTICAL voting for the Greens by SNP supporters in 2016 increased the number of pro-independence MSPs rather than boosting Unionist numbers at Holyrood, the first major report on last year’s election has found.”
Did it? That might come as a surprise to keen followers of arithmetic, who may have noted that the number of pro-independence MSPs actually FELL in 2016 – from 72 to 69 – rather than increasing, despite pro-independence parties getting a fractionally higher share of the vote (up from 49% in 2011 to 49.4% in 2016).
The Herald’s piece goes on to make another claim about the views of Professor Curtice which don’t seem to be supported – indeed, appear to be contradicted – by his actual words.
“Curtice, a professor of politics at the University of Strathclyde, said that if there had not been such tactical voting there would have been fewer pro-independence MSPs.”
Did he say that? Let’s look for the quote:
“Curtice said: “It is evident that the apparent tactical switching in favour of the Greens had less impact on the SNP’s overall tally than the party’s failure to win seven constituency seats that it might have been expected to have won.””
That very much appears to be Professor Curtice saying that tactical switching to the Greens DID in fact damage the SNP (he goes on to suggest that it cost the Nats two seats, and with them their majority), but not as much as failing to take some target constituency seats. As with in 2016, the professor has said something that’s perfectly true, but has been distorted into a false headline and then misrepresented in the text.
The report was conducted for the Electoral Reform Society Scotland, most of whose senior executives are on public record as wanting the SNP to be either deprived of its majority or completely destroyed, and whose motivation in producing such studies is therefore fairly clear and open.
But no amount of spin can dodge those inconvenient bare numbers – in 2016 the list vote share for pro-independence parties increased, but was more split than in 2011 – just as the Sunday Herald and others had demanded – yet the number of pro-indy MSPs went down.
So far so fishy, then. But at the start of this article we said we’d wondered why the Sunday Herald would poke a stick in this particular hornet’s nest again after the angry reaction it provoked last time (since when its circulation has taken a 25% dive), and we’ve only come up with one possible explanation – it’s expecting another election.
For the last week or two the news-starved Scottish press has featured quite a bit of low-level muttering about the imminent budget vote. The SNP needs at least one of the opposition parties to either back the budget or abstain on it to get it through, and so far all four are sabre-rattling from positions that are difficult to back down from.
The Tories want the Nats to abandon plans to implement changes to the income-tax threshold that would see higher earners pay slightly more tax than their counterparts in England and Wales. Labour and the Greens, conversely, say they’ll vote against the budget if it doesn’t increase taxes more in order to pay for public services.
The Lib Dems, meanwhile, appear in today’s Times to threaten that they’re prepared to bring the government down if it doesn’t accede to their demands for an extra £500m in spending, although they don’t specify where the money should come from.
Now, for what it’s worth, this site’s view is that one of the opposition parties will blink before the Scottish Government does. The Tories would almost certainly be happy to fight another election and so would the SNP, while the Lib Dems probably fancy their chances of a slight bounce from their Brexit stance.
Labour and the Greens, however, have far more to lose. Labour would be fighting from a position of having lost a third of its support since last May, and the Greens might find SNP supporters considerably less inclined to lend them a second vote this time round. Neither Kezia Dugdale nor Patrick Harvie and that other one nobody can ever remember have much prospect of worthwhile gains, and both could find themselves rather shorter on MSPs after a snap election – voters tend not to reward parties who bring down governments.
(The Greens, of course, are already in the best position they can ever hope to achieve from an election – being able to take the governing party from a minority to a majority. Even in the unlikely event of winning a few extra seats they’d be materially no better off, and the very real chance of losing that “kingmaker” status would be a high risk for no meaningful potential reward.)
But with the semi-exception of the Lib Dems, the opposition are digging themselves in pretty deep. While nobody would be in the least bit surprised to see Labour ultimately abstain on something again, it’s at least possible that the budget deadlock of 2009 – which was swiftly resolved when they, the Tories and the Lib Dems backed down in return for minor face-saving concessions – could go a step further and send Scots to the polling stations for the eighth time in six years.
In that event, the “tactical voting” campaign of the far left will want to have its troops ready to go again. And since this time it’s going to be a lot harder to sell the idea that a split vote is safe because the SNP will get a majority anyway, it makes sense that they’d want to get a head start.
How popular would the LibDems be if they dragged Scotland to the polls again unnecessarily? Can’t believe they will do that, and the Greens would surely back down before triggering another election.
Sometimes though I am convinced this country has a death wish.
It’s the end of Bella though, surely. And a dreadful warning that the Indy movement is nearly as hubris-riddled as the Yoon side.
Glad I stopped getting the Sunday Herald after last year’s election.
Read that Sunday Herald article – mischief making and a continuation of attempts to weaken the SNP and hence Indy.
Read, digest, analyse then spit it out!
A clear binary choice, SNP or Tory.
At this stage the rest are irrelevant.
Glad I stopped reading Bella, frankly.
No problem. SNP x 2 again.
More political nonsense from the biased tax money wasters. Lining their pockets on Unionist bias. Uni department not fit for purpose. Using poor analysis and polls to influence the vote. Totally illegal and braking Purdah.. Lining their pockets with public and private money to get it wrong. Despite inquiries just getting away with it. No electoral censor for gerrymeandering and breaking the rules. Telling total lies.
Vote SNP/SNP always for better governance, especially in difficult circumstance, for the sake of vulnerable people. Curtice poor analysis is used to influence the Polls. The Polls are used to influence the vote. Public polls should be banned during the Purdah period. The MSM illegally break Purdah, without sanctions. Break the Law. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies. What has been done about it?
Aye but The Sunday Herald, Bella and The Green Party branch office all support independence apparently.
Well, this is one Green Warrior who’ll not be giving any support to any of the aforementioned divisionists this side of independence.
Sick to the back teeth of Patrick Harvie’s constant fight, with Willie Rennie, for King of the Me Me Me Munchkins title.
ScotsRenewables
Agreed. We often complain of Little Englanders but we have a fair number in Scotland who go further, we have Little ‘No 23 Glebe Close-rs’. Those who can’t see much beyond their own front doors.
And a fair number of folks who support a left leaning view but buy the lines coming from right wing newspapers without questions. Especially puzzling are those who say they are confused and not sure then support the Tory led UK.
Stirrers.
The next elections are the council ones… which runs under STV, which makes tactical voting perfectly safe. What they’re trying to do now is ensure that SNP voters do not give their third and fourth preferences etc to other pro-indy candidates.
Brilliant article, thankyou again.
‘..and we’ve only come up with one possible explanation – it’s expecting another election.’
Now we can see the most basic argument.
The finance minister, of WHICHEVER party, needs ALL ECONOMIC LEVERS to balance our societal and business needs.
Bringing down a government with 50% of votes and seats, in effect because their’POCKETMONEY’ has been reduced, shows that our opposition has a narrow/hidden agenda.
I read the Sunday Herald article and I don’t understand how any SNP voter with a modicum of common sense could be taken in by it, given the result of last year’s election.
The discussion re the greens is absolutely correct.
Willy Rennie ‘s threat seems hollow given I know both Lib dems and Greens in discussion with Scot Gov on the budget.
Likely scenario is a deal will redone with the Greens. A second attempt to get a budget agreement with one of these two parties probably would be attempted.
If that fails likely a new vote on FM position possible.
(Defy parties to vote in Ruth Davidson)
Only then would SNP go to the country and at this stage I fear Willie Rennie would lose his seat, and he knows it.
Now who on earth has been briefing the paper about this?
Labour..Possibly, as they have an unshakeable belief in their immortality? I stopped after that ‘coz I was laughing so much.??
Don’t trust completely the Sunday Herald. Their move could be seen as a bit opportunist at the time and they still have their Daily Herald Brits writing on Sunday.
I subscribe to the digital National, but they did push the second vote away from the SNP. The editor denied this and said he wrote an editorial on Polling Day calling for both votes. Too late. They seem obsessed with Cat Boyd,RIC/SSP/RISE for some reason, who spend all their time fighting each other, among themselves and attacking the SNP.
Not all the Greens support Independence. Former leader, Robin Harper, supported the Bitters Campaign. The Glasgow cooncillors were a mixed bunch of woolly heads. One of them resigned recently. After the Yes campaign they recruited more pro Indy members.Patrick may have some good policies, but, he can play the blackmail card too often. By being encouraged to cry wolf by the Unionist media he is danger of being swallowed up. None of his ideas are more important then Independence, without which we can achieve nothing.
I had a really hard time on the net trying to persuade Indy voters not to throw away their second vote, as it would reduce the SNP majority, which we need to move on to Independence, if that is your priority. Many were quoting some odd convoluted ideas that it would not affect the SNP majority. Most seemed to have regretted that and if the Unionists and Greens want to try any more brinkmanship then they risk being wiped out, or see a reduction in their numbers.
Maybe the SNP should call their bluff to clear the stables oot?
The threat of another IndeRef soon is bad enough, but a Holyrood election – eeuuch !
If the Greens do not support the SNP budget then they are toast and I would hope that they realise that. Unfortunately, they are not very good at strategy IMO. Last chance saloon time.
Ken500..”The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies. What has been done about it?”
Yeah..Anyone have a timescale/process re any inquiry? Etc?
Two things jump out at me here.
Firstly Dennis Robertson did not help himself or the SNP with his ridiculous “No crisis in the oil industry ” comments that ultimately got a Tory elected in his place.
Secondly the D’hont system effect lay wastes an SNP second vote ( or at least diminishes its effect to the point it is unrepresentative)
So……..we set up a Scottish National List party.
Autonomous, but supportive of Scottish independence.
Hoover up the list votes and take advantage of the multiplier that a party with no MSPs.
Someone tell me it wouldn’t work. ????????
[…] Wings Over Scotland Contenders ready The Sunday Herald ran an extraordinary article on page 2 yesterday, and after we’d […]
Divide and rule. Oldest trick in the book.
Might be far reached but if we have another election then indy2 will be the 9th in how many years? maybe they are trying to ware us out….
I watched Weary Wullie yesterday and just wondered, so remind me how many MSP’s do the Fib/Dems have, is it 4 oe 44!!!!!! Patrick and Wullie should take a look at Election result, total votes cast for SNP was more than all of the votes cast for Green, SLAB, Tory and Fib/Dem.
We can never get the re-distributive tax system we all want until we are INDEPENDENT.
Auld Rock
The reason why SNP folk were so annoyed with the tactical voting stuff was that it was built on a lie that we were GUARANTEED a majority purely on constituency votes, so people could fanny about with their list vote without having to worry about whether the SNP would need list MSPs. The election bore this out, and this report doesn’t change anything in that respect.
SNP 1 & 2 will do just fine for me.
Remember Westminster’s 1st Rule – Divide and Conquer.
Hope over fear is ours and we’ve seen through the Tory fraud.
Roll on May Council Elections, then on to 2018 Indy Ref 2,
Then on to VICTORY !
Rev. Stu. Does the Sunday Herald pose a bigger threat to Scottish Independence than the Express. Or the Daily Mail?
Unless you are a far left socialist or Green supporter then Bella isnt place for any Indy supporter, that lot are foaming at the mouth crazy , and causing splits in the movement which are doing nothing for the Yes campaign, The SNP voters that split the vote last year only gave some other indy parties a position they dont or never have deserved, in fact some who were begging for votes actually cost the independence movement, , the greens jumped on the indy bandwagon, then before last election said they wouldnt back indy unless a petition of 1 million yes voters appeared, shows how much they value it
There are two types of Yessers.
Firstly there are those, like myself, who have Indy as the priority. Once it has been achieved and democracy introduced to Scotland at all levels of government, the population will decide the direction iScotland takes.
Secondly there are those with various ideological stances as their priority who see Indy as a way to achieve their aims. For these groups, democracy is just one means to an end.
IMO the vast majority belong to the former, and a small minority to the latter.
Clearly the two groups would appear allies in that both want Indy when Indy is being actively sought. The problem is, at other times, the true priorities of the second groups rise (no pun intended) to the surface.
At this absolutely crucial time on our road to Indy, everyone in the Yes camp should be staying focused on Indy. The sad truth is, not all will.
If the Greens provoke an election right now, they will be rightly punished.
The best scenario would be for some to abstain over the budget.
Agree with Doug above. Too many SNP supporters got sucked in, and gave their 2nd vote to Greens, and now we have everything grinding down.
I wish Indy people would just get their head straight, plenty time for your voting intentions/fannying, when we are independent.
Until then, give SNP your backing to get this done.
Brewer on Sunday Politics was actually stating to Wullie Rennie that “are you sure you want to make a deal when an election could take independence off the table until 2020 at least”
More likely scenario, snap election = SNP Majority purely in constituency seats = no more fucking about appeasing the Greens.
Wullie B. I don’t recall much begging for votes. I remember plenty of self-entiled, irate demands. I had been turned off Bella long before then, when their more outspoken supporters hounded Ewan Morrison away from Yes, but the Rise pish was lamentable.
I doubt the Lib Dems have muxh to risk if there was another election…it is not as if they have much further to drop. And all three (Lab, Lib dems + greens) might like going into an election with a anti-brexit, further left agenda than SNP…now the powers exist the SNP are actually going to have to justify why they don’t use them. As for an eighth election vote in 6 years…that is only going to harm the SNP as even if in the end it make little difference to the make-up of the parliament it will certainly make indyref2 an even more unappealing prospect.
As for voting than other parties than SNP…well god forbid that some people value their other beliefs (environment, social justice, etc etc) equal to or above that of independence. It is that arrogance and monomania of the SNP echoed by its chief propagandists that will be it’s downfall
Its all posturing they would not dare bring down the Scottish government and give us a second chance to sack their asses,those with most to loose will vote to keep their cushy jobs.
The SG should tell them to put up or shut up and take a hard line on this,either way its a win win situation for them and a new election is something they should welcome,bring it on yoons if you dare.
“The next elections are the council ones”
Not necessarily…
“As for voting than other parties than SNP…well god forbid that some people value their other beliefs (environment, social justice, etc etc) equal to or above that of independence.”
Absolutely nobody has been criticised for that. Only for telling lies.
“So……..we set up a Scottish National List party.
Autonomous, but supportive of Scottish independence.
Hoover up the list votes and take advantage of the multiplier that a party with no MSPs.
Someone tell me it wouldn’t work. ????????”
I actually raised that question a couple of years ago. Theoretically it’d be perfectly plausible, however it’d need to find money from somewhere and be absolutely squeaky-clean in terms of not being connected to the SNP.
“How popular would the LibDems be if they dragged Scotland to the polls again unnecessarily?”
I don’t think the Lib Dems would be chiefly held responsible. They’re the smallest party in Parliament, why should it be down to them?
Divide, rule, and keep on lying you tory backsides off,
The Graun’s rolling Nic Sturgeon bad coverage, it’s getting awful creepy in UKOK hackdom again,
10m ago
10:12
Unfortunately, when the SNP’s Michael Russell was on the Today programme, he was not asked about an interesting story in the Times saying the SNP is thinking about abandoning full EU membership as its preferred option for an independent Scotland. Instead senior party figures are considering whether the party’s policy should be for Scotland to have a Norway-style relationship with the EU, according to the Times’ Hamish Macdonell.”
Sleazy ain’t the half of what these chancers are up to.
Clydebuilt says:10:01 am
Rev. Stu. Does the Sunday Herald pose a bigger threat to Scottish Independence than the Express. Or the Daily Mail?
Sorry to butt in, but, the answer is surely..
It depends who’s agenda the BBC prefers to ‘air’.
“It is that arrogance and monomania of the SNP echoed by its chief propagandists that will be it’s downfall”
Is there anyway of rebutting this sanely? No.
“Neither Kezia Dugdale nor Patrick Harvie and that other one nobody can ever remember have much prospect of worthwhile gains, and both could find themselves rather shorter on MSPs after a snap election – voters tend not to reward parties who bring down governments.”
I expect the Greens will compromise, but tbh I wouldn’t put it past Labour despite the obvious loses they’ll sustain to sacrifice their MSPs in an attempt to remove a pro-indy majority.
One aspect of the Holyrood voting which gets forgotten in such discussions is that a percentage of voters don’t actually understand the system! They believe it is some sort of STV vote with 1st choice, 2nd choice.
I wonder how widespread this is? Also, was this ignorance seen by some as opportunity?
Personally I regret not voting Green in NE Scotland last election. Our hundreds of thousands of list votes for the SNP achieved virtually nothing for Independence and let a bunch on second rate Tories into Holyrood.
So if an 8th time to the polls in 6 years is too much, what chances for a 9th with Indyref2? I can already hear the “Ruth Davidson for a Strong Opposition I’m more a Blairite than a Thatcherite, honest, I am” spokesperson Ruth Davidson telling us that a 9th vote would etc etc etc.
Yes, I noticed too on Facebook folk talking about the Green vote. I certainly got in there and warned about splitting the vote again with Greens/Rise whoever and advocating SNP/SNP in Holyrood elections and only SNP in council elections.
Lots of people agreed with me and seemed really annoyed with the Greens stance!
“Absolutely nobody has been criticised for that. Only for telling lies.”
Not going to get any argument that the RISE/Green numpties have been lying about the actual practical effects of their votes. However to say that you and your acolytes haven’t criticised them for “denying the SNP a majority” by voting with their conscience is “alternative fact” of Trumpian proportions…
Lots of people agreed with me and seemed really annoyed with the Greens stance!”
Green rage back at anyone pointing out things like, why are Green’s splitting up the YES vote, is also odd to watch.
heedtracker says:
30 January, 2017 at 10:25 am
Divide, rule, and keep on lying you tory backsides off,
The Graun’s rolling Nic Sturgeon bad coverage, it’s getting awful creepy in UKOK hackdom again,
10m ago
10:12
Unfortunately, when the SNP’s Michael Russell was on the Today programme, he was not asked about an interesting story in the Times saying the SNP is thinking about abandoning full EU membership as its preferred option for an independent Scotland. Instead senior party figures are considering whether the party’s policy should be for Scotland to have a Norway-style relationship with the EU, according to the Times’ Hamish Macdonell.”
The SNP cant come out and say that or they lose the right to have another referendum as the difference between Scotland and Englands intentions are gone, and I have been hearing that the SNP as it is would be lucky to hold onto Banff and Buchan now due to the pro EU stance which would mean taking on the Commons Fishery Policy, the EFTA would efectively take that off the table and makes sense to What Fergus Ewing is saying regarding Scotland dropping the CFP
…all the unionists need do is pander to the ego of those Scots, such as involved at Bella, and they will do their work for me them. Once again my fellow Scots concern themselves with division rather than unity.
The rest of us work for Independence first THEN the minor politics of shading. However many on the left and in the Green Party have to determine the shape of Scotland FIRST resulting in a delay to Independence.
Just completed an opinion survey with the usual questions on voting for independence and Brexit, and rating Scottish party leaders, but unusual in having specific questions about Gordon Brown. He was asked to be rated along with the current party leaders in Scotland and whether you would vote Labour if he was Scottish leader. Are Labour contemplating replacing Dugdale with Brown?
“However to say that you and your acolytes haven’t criticised them for “denying the SNP a majority” by voting with their conscience is “alternative fact” of Trumpian proportions…”
Really? So you can quote me saying anything to that effect, can you? Because what I actually said, over and over again, was “It’s not up to me to tell you who to vote for. Vote for whoever you want to have MSPs. There’s no such thing as a wasted vote”.
(And in practical terms RISE got so few votes they had no impact on anything.)
I agree with everything you say Rev. In fact I posted this just two days ago.
What is more concerning though is why everything as you rightly say seems too orchestrated. It is as if there is a pre conceived co-ordinated plan laid out to reduce the SNP power base via smaller groups like the Greens in addition to playing the loyalist card.
Now I always took Patrick Harvey as a shrewd guy, but I think the idea of expanding his power base is taking precedent over indy ambitions. Is he selling out?
SNP X2. No doubt about it.
“I expect the Greens will compromise, but tbh I wouldn’t put it past Labour despite the obvious loses they’ll sustain to sacrifice their MSPs in an attempt to remove a pro-indy majority.”
Actually, if I was going to have a wee sneaky bet on who was most likely to either back the budget or abstain to let it through, I’d probably put my money on the Lib Dems.
“Now I always took Patrick Harvey as a shrewd guy, but I think the idea of expanding his power base is taking precedent over indy ambitions.”
Yes, I agree. Which is of course perfectly compatible with him being “shrewd”.
If you want a big nail banged in you hit it with a big hammer that you know does the job you don’t start looking for a lot of alternative little hammers that might mibbees kinda if I hit it more times hammers
SNPX2 The rest are irrelevant and the folk who were conned by Bella and other news sites hopefully wont do that again, and especially the mysterious appearances of new “Independent” candidates (Aye right!)
The Greens have proved themselves to be exactly what they are all about, Zoomer tax business wreckers just at the time when Scotland needs business stability, the Greens are even more opportunistic than the Lib Dems for God sake, first chance they get they pull out the “hold you to ransom card” I hope Derek McKay sticks to his guns and lets them go for it and we’ll see who loses out
Stu says folk don’t like parties who bring down governments and history shows it’s true, but go for your life Patrick I for one cannae wait to watch your backbone shrink
The rest of them have no principles whatsoever on anything they just want to defeat the SNP on something so they can say they won and sod the country as long as it’s a Unionist win
Ruthie might think she’ll like it, more red Tory votes coming her way, Kezia will vanish and drown with barely a ripple left on the political pond and Wee Willies vote will remain unchanged
So all in all another good day for the SNP and a more than likely majority government, which may have been the plan all along
Who’s going to test it 3,2,1 Blink
Roboscot
That sounds as though it is a private poll being taken by Labour.
Kind of sick and tired of certain ‘voices’ who supposedly support independence, continually going out of their way to sow seeds of discontent and disagreement. Divide and conquer eh?
Kind of glad I did not donate a single penny to help Bella survive. Over the years (and I have been posting online since well before WOS, and in the early days of Newsnet) I have watched it be subsumed by people who have what I think is a rather tenuous commitment to independence – other things seem to be a priority for them, including self aggrandisement. Giving the unionists succour, and running articles that seem intentionally to seek division, and split the pro indy vote, to me is quite misplaced.
The problem is, the SNP do have mass appeal, whereas, much as many people are very enthusiastic about green policies, I personally do not think their appeal is broad enough.
When unionists start making the same arguments about voting, and splitting the pro indy vote as Bella is, in the run up to an election, then you know something is just NOT quite right. You might call it definitive.
The Sunday Herald is a classic case of “a foot in both camps”. Not to be trusted, just like the rest of them.
Someone accused me on Facebook of not wanting independence. My crime? Disagreeing that all Yessers should buy the Rectum on a Monday just cos the FM has a column in it. My argument is that it’s better to let the unionist rag die its lingering death while hopefully the FM can reach a few before the coffin lid gets nailed down.
The press up here are the enemy. Remember The Scum in 92? Ashamed to say I bought it for 5 years until they ditched us at the last minute in 97. Won’t Get Fooled Again. Ever.
Hmm…
My last posting at 1046 am,
Part of it should have read;
“The problem is, the SNP do have mass appeal, whereas, much as many people are very enthusiastic about green policies, I personally do not think the Green parties appeal is broad enough.”
If I was (t)Ruthless Davidson it would make sense to me to try and bring down the Scottish Government at exactly this point in time.
Article 50 will be triggered by the end of March, we believe;
there is very vocal opposition from the SNP MP’s at WM who will try to disrupt that as much as possible.
If (t)Ruthless can convince Kez and Wee Wullie to vote against the SNP then not only do all three leaders get extra brownie points from their London masters but they create a stalemate like that in N. Ireland just now.
Instead of James Brokenshire it would be Fluffy and the big chap from N E England (Newcastle?) who would lead Scotland in the interim period.
Our MP’s in WM would be recalled – no opposition to TM’s autocracy for a few months;
no Nicola ‘withering on’ about Indyref2 all the time (which she doesn’t do anyway!)
carte blanche to the BBC to say whatever they want re Brexit, Indy, SNP baad and remain unchallenged.
Combine Council/Scottish Government elections so not much extra cost.
If you believe the O. Polls which your party has been carrying out incessantly, then it’s obvious that (t)Ruthless will be the winner and the next FM of Scotland.
Indy ref cancelled; T.May happy; full English Brexit and porridge for Scotland; (t)Ruthless gets promoted to Queen of North Britain until such time as Holyrood is wound up by head office, then move south to a cushy number.
If you lose the gamble you’re still the leader of your party, will still be the Opposition, you’ve given it your best shot and put a huge spanner in the works for a few crucial months.
What’s not to like?
I believe that they are that stupid!
SNP/SNP every time for indy. Others are a waste of time.
Who wins when the vote is split? Westminster, that’s who.
O/t on victoria Derbyshire this morning talking about fake news on the ‘internet . No mention about fake news on the BBC and msm.
Wullie B says:
“The SNP cant come out and say that or they lose the right to have another referendum as the difference between Scotland and Englands intentions are gone, and I have been hearing that the SNP as it is would be lucky to hold onto Banff and Buchan now due to the pro EU stance ”
Its amazing that the Buchan is not another Orkney, with a Carmichael style yoon in there.
It is tight there but problem is, there’s hardly any fishing industry left in the Buchan. What’s left of the fash has got a huge UKOK media standing for lots of divide and conquer reasons but its the British military presence that really keeps the flag flying, military retirees too ofcourse, but only just. Lovely people too, wing commander Tuffton Buffton types.
mike d says:
30 January, 2017 at 10:57 am
O/t on victoria Derbyshire this morning talking about fake news on the ‘internet . No mention about fake news on the BBC and msm.
eg.
Graun liggers like this one very much,
“The SNP is close to ditching one of its longest-held principles for Scottish independence — full membership of the European Union.
The Times has learnt that senior party figures want to adopt a Norway-style model in which an independent Scotland would stay inside the single market, but outside the EU, after Brexit.
This, they believe, would allow Scotland to retain all the benefits of the European single market while continuing to trade within the UK as it does now.
A poll published yesterday found that more than a third of Yes voters from 2014 want to stay outside the EU and SNP strategists believe this new approach would keep these voters behind their independence cause.”
The Times:D
We are as close as we’ve ever been to Independence and this is the time the Greens in Scotland choose to play hardball.
The Greens in Scotland ran their election campaign based on increasing taxation COUPLED with increasing the minimum wage to 10 pounds an hour. Now they insist on increasing the taxation without the increase in the minimum wage.
Not what their supporters voted for.
They are starting to behave like an established UK party.
If the Holyrood opposition parties stand together to block the SG’s proposed budget then the people of Scotland will have to ask themselves a question – “How can we get the budget through next time if no one is prepared to compromise?”
They will realise that the ONLY party that has a chance of getting an overall majority (to get a budget through) is the SNP – all the other parties are simply too far behind and could NEVER achieve a majority on their own.
So, the ONLY party to have a realistic chance of getting a budget through after a snap Holyrood election is the SNP. The people of Scotland will realise that, vote for them and blow two holes in the feet of the opposition for being the total opportunistic arse pieces that they are.
Oh, and by returning the SNP with a majority at Holyrood we can be sure that there won’t be even BIGGER tax rises that each of the opposition parties are insisting upon.
The Yoonatics want another Holyrood election? Turkeys, Christmas, voting and all that.
Incidentally, the most recent, Kilmarnock by-election although only a 26.6% turn out still returned the SNP candidate with an increased vote and a tally almost higher than that polled for Labour and Conservative combined.
SNP 48.7% (+ 2.1%)
Lab 29.4% (-16.6%)
Con 20.1 (+12.7%)
link to ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk
Not a big turn out but we got the vote out on the day – that’s what really matters.
“O/t on victoria Derbyshire this morning talking about fake news on the ‘internet . No mention about fake news on the BBC and msm.”
And no mention either of how MI5 vets BBC staff to ensure they have the ‘right’ political views.
After Richard Walker’s speech at the indy conference the other week about supporting journalists I wonder if we could get his reaction now.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the National withdrawn from circulation on the call of another referendum.
” Flower of Scotland says:
30 January, 2017 at 10:31 am
Yes, I noticed too on Facebook folk talking about the Green vote. I certainly got in there and warned about splitting the vote again with Greens/Rise whoever and advocating SNP/SNP in Holyrood elections and only SNP in council elections”
See? Even though STV doesn’t work like Holyrood’s FPTP+AMS, the backlash from last year’s tactical voting is causing people to oppose giving the Greens any votes at all in the council elections.
This could lead to majority unionist control of most councils, despite the SNP becoming the largest party in all of them.
There could be another Holyrood election on the same day as the local Authority elections in May. That would be after triggering Article 50 and crunch time for whether to go for staying in Europe or the doomsday option.
If we do get a snap election, the last person to listen to on this site is schroders cat who was arguing vehamently before the last Holyrood election for giving your second vote to another pro-indy party.
That worked out well. eh!
James Caithness says:
30 January, 2017 at 11:35 am
If we do get a snap election, the last person to listen to on this site is schroders cat who was arguing vehamently before the last Holyrood election for giving your second vote to another pro-indy party.”
Hey he only argued that for specific constituencies, that he knows pretty well.
Aw No!
We need all of our new media singing from the same hymn sheet and Bella is not helping with this.
There are people out there counting on the Scottish government, all of our new media and all of the diverse support for independence. With what is ranged against Scotland and what is at stake we simply cannot afford this right now.
Y’know, I get political differences, creative differences, even difference of approach to the same problem. I don’t agree with certain aspects of policy, tone or approach from a lot of folk on the indy side, bit I have NEVER seen the point in arguing with a fellow traveller.
The real enemy is so much worse and by some considerable degree.
Right now there’s the wee matter (in reverse order) of a budget to pass. The threat of a possible attempt by parties to bring down the sitting Scottish government. The small matter of PM May’s meeting with the heads of the devolved assemblies and lest we forget, avoiding Scotland being taken out of the EU against its express democratic wishes.
When A50 is triggered, and it will be triggered, we’d best have our collective shit together, because you can be damn sure the other side will. The only people who benefit from division in the indy camp are HMG and all that they stand for.
We won’t be granted a third chance in our lifetime.
Wow that is quite a telling result 22% of No voters want another indyref within 2 years.
Why would you want another indyref if you were a no voter,so you could now vote yes?
Robert Louis@10.46am
I supported Bella until the last crowdfunder. I know lots of people did and did not contribute this time for their stance on the Green/Rise vote. Folk didn’t understand the voting system and felt duped by Bella. That’s why their crowdfunder went down the tubes this time.
Who bailed them out I wonder?
I was blocked by Bella on Facebook before the Holyrood election because I argued (nicely) against splitting the SNP vote in favour of Green/Rise.
Meg merrilees @10.53
If an election to the Scottish Parliament was triggered because the Scottish Government did not get it’s budget through it would have no effect on the SNP’s MPs at Westminster. They remain in place and fully functioning.
They are members of another Parliament and are not recalled as you have suggested because there is an election to Holyrood.
If an election for Holyrood is triggered then Scottish Government ministers remain in place to conduct the day to day business of government. Neither Mundell nor his Labour shadow, whoever he is, takes over the running of Scotland.
They could hold the local elections and Holyrood elections on the same day but after the debacle the last time that happened they would be unlikely to do so.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
30 January, 2017 at 10:43 am
“Now I always took Patrick Harvey as a shrewd guy, but I think the idea of expanding his power base is taking precedent over indy ambitions.”
Yes, I agree. Which is of course perfectly compatible with him being “shrewd”.
Not really Rev the Greens in Scotlands best chance of expanding their power base will always be within an Indy Scottish Parliament never a Devolved one.
We have found out recently just how worthless the Devolved Parliament is in terms of power.
If the Greens split the pro Indy vote in Scotland and the Yoons concentrate their vote on the Tories then its not unfeasible for the Tories to end up as the largest party.
Perhaps that’s the Heralds long to medium term gameplan?
OT Trump poll still on fire …
1,131,955 Signed
o/t concerned MPs want fake news enquiry
link to rt.com
Spot on Macart.
I am not a member of the SNP but will vote and support them until Scotland is independent.
Once Scotland is independent my vote will go to which ever party best supports my views.
Rev Stu, thank you for your expose(French accent acute) of what is indeed an extraordinary article in the SH. It is not roses I’m smelling!
Well. Now is the time for the Green Party to actualy stand up for Scotland, lay aside their possibly not so well thought out views on the Scottish budget for now, and show us that they really do want Independence for our Nation.
All of their policies would come to naught without Independence.
Time to straighten out their priorities.
So let me get this right we have 50% of the population who are yes or new yes who want indyref2 and we have 22% of no voters who want it that makes 72% want indyref2.
Which means hardcore yoon fannies are only 28%.
Amazing what bollocks you can make up from a poll with just a little creative arithmetic lol
Hmmmmm.
If we reach the next elections, council, or general, or indeed the next Indyref, if we are still squabbling about two or three seats here or there being significant, and whether or not the Greens are saviours or villains, then I can’t help seeing that as anything other than a dismal failure.
The UK is on the brink of disintegration, with the rUK underwriting its hopes and ambitions with magic wand Trade Deals agreed with the shoogliest USA presidency that I can remember, and yet Scotland is very well placed to avoid this leap into the abyss simply by staying still, holding on to our friends and commerce in Europe, asking only of ourselves that we take adequate control over our affairs to make it happen.
I’m sorry Scotland, and SNP, but if that plot synopsis lacks adequate bite for making the case for Independence, then it isn’t Donald Trump who needs a wee lie down on a psychiatrist’s couch, it’s the whole bloody lot of us.
I am alarmed that we are all so laid back about the inevitability of Indyref2 that we can afford to leave the campaigning to the manic few weeks before the vote. I believe it is sheer folly to believe we will have 2 years beyond the triggering of Article 50 to bring home a successful Indyref2 campaign. I fear it is much more likely that Indyref2 will be overtaken by Brexit, and Scotland will find itself out of Europe by technical distinction as a non sovereign entity. The deal will be done long before we can get our act together on a referendum, which Westminster will fight tooth and nail to prevent, and do so behind closed doors and denied our phone call to our friends in Europe.
Theresa May has already opted for a hard Brexit, and alluded to concessions and agreements which every European and his dog knows are fictional and not forthcoming. Scotland will not get any separate deal. By what possible device of nature is this realisation going to take two whole years of process???
Europe is on the record, they are holding a place for us, they are keeping our seat warm, they will grant us whatever latitude we require to tidy up our constitutional emancipation, and then we are good to go and take our place beside the other sovereign nations of Europe. Offers don’t come any better than that, yet still we dawdle, unsure.
Why are we so dismally bad at marketing the idea of Scottish Independence that innumerable betrayals, cheats, belittlings, and smears still holds sway over our positive self determination? The Union can lie to us with impunity, trample all over our constitutional protections, and take from us whatever it likes, whether that’s oil, whisky, fishing rights, North Sea territorial waters, and all we can manage is to play the Toy-land politics in the Toy-land parliament which they humbled themselves to allow us, but which is unsubstantial and literally stands for nothing in their law. It’s a talking shop masquerading as a government, which the “real” government doesn’t even have to consult.
This is not making any sense to me. What have we actually achieved since 2014, and is it truly our achievement, or merely collateral “advantage” from Brexit? Sewel counts for nothing, so Holyrood counts for nothing, so exactly what does an SNP majority at Holyrood actually count for? It’s uncomfortable arithmetic, but you can hopefully work it out. Outright majority or minority admin, it’s still an illusion of control which blinds us to where our true, sovereign power lies.
This Indyref2 campaign whenever it kicks off better be astounding, because if we choose referendum over legal diktat to secure our sovereignty then it’s going to have to be:-
Communications. Sorted. Myths debunked. Sorted. Progressive Agenda. Sorted. Constitutional legitimacy. Sorted. Legal authority. Sorted. Hostile propaganda. Sorted. Foreign Observers. Sorted. Political Mandate. Sorted. Foreign endorsements. Sorted. International recognition. Sorted. Answers rehearsed and familiar for Unionist propaganda. Sorted. Counter-propaganda awareness and readiness. Sorted. Campaign literature. Sorted. Campaign media. Sorted. UDI contingencies. Sorted. Worst case scenarios. Sorted. Economic models. Sorted.
Have you heard the machinery running? Not sure that I have.
Scotland needs to face the next constitutional hurdle as a fully fledged sovereign nation in waiting, not squabbling about left or right leaning sympathies, who said what to whom, or free bus passes for the elderly. The divisive Unionist propaganda must not get a look in. Are we ready for that?
Well we better get ready, and fast.
Was that 22% of No voters who would vote No again, or those who had voted No?
It seems to me that Patrick Harvey isn’t looking at the long term – kinda ironic for a Green.
Surely the best long term way to address the issues that he wants to address by increasing tax, is to get independence and gain monetary control and stop paying for UK vanity projects like Trident?
Looks like the Board of Bella Caledonia will need to intervene and sort out Williamson and the other one, both of whom let ego get in the way of open access on their blog. Disagree with them – you’re barred.
Unlike the likes of Craig Murray who seeems to actually enjoy it and quite rightly too. You learn from people who have different points of view to yourself, and let nobody disagree with me on that one or I’ll go off in a BC-like huff.
Anyways OT, Trump causes problems for Privacy Shield and data protection in Europe.
link to theregister.co.uk
Legerwood
Phew!
I’m glad I got that one wrong, thanks – That’s a relief!
I was obviously having a terrible nightmare when I posted the previous item…
(still think they could be daft enough to try it – just as a diversion up here.)
Phew!, wide awake now and waiting for Nicola’s important announcement today.
@ Brian Powell
Why would they want another indyref regardless,it kind of stood out at me as well.
If it goes to another election by the way with the voting public probably hacked off to the back teeth with elections and referendums anyway, a factor n the calling of Indy Ref 2, the big losers will be the LibDems and the Greens, both of whom will be seen as the villains of the piece.
The SNP got elected as a minority government on the basis of their manifesto which they are implementing. The elctorate rejected the manifestoes of the Tories, Labour – an the LibDems and Greens. They would be expected to compromise, and gain some small ground. I’d say the Greens would be lucky if they got one single MSP returned.
Breeks@11.53
The SNP are an umbrella group containing people of all political persuasions and that includes far left and Greens. That’s why we should always vote SNP until we get Independence, then we can vote for whichever party we want.
That’s why I joined 52 years ago. I was more leaning towards the left and at that time the SNP were called “Tartan Tories”, but I could see even then that we needed only ONE strong party in Government to take Scotland to Independence.
This splitting the vote is just a gift to the Unionist parties.
It’s taken Curtice a while to come up with this cunning stunt, the matter was discussed ad nauseum at the time, obviously there’s money in it for him? There were splitters on here before the election, as if Mundell wasn’t lesson enough!
This splitting the vote is just a gift to the Unionist parties.
Belying that now though, Greens, SLab, fringe left at Bella, are all fighting for higher taxation for Scots now.
There are all kinds of economic issues around tax hikes for Scotland only, in approx 8% of UK economy, in austerity UK, with Brexit inflation going up and up, let alone high risk post Brexit slump, and against the why and how of what Scots actually voted SNP last time.
SLab in particular flopped last time, campaigning for tax hikes on Scots. On top of all that, the blue tories rage, Scots now pay highest UK taxes.
None of this real world stuff makes any difference to our current Holyrood opposition. It probably does at the ballot box though.
Breeks wrote on 30 January, 2017 at 11:53 am:
“I am alarmed that we are all so laid back about the inevitability of Indyref2 that we can afford to leave the campaigning to the manic few weeks before the vote.”
I beg your pardon? I and several others have long since started the ball rolling in our own little ways and are already educating people to the current political situation in Scotland without actually mentioning the ‘R’ word (referendum).
We’re not prepared to sit around waiting on any starting gun because the BUM propaganda machine never stops. Project fear and smear runs constantly 24/7 and only ever either gets cranked up or down a notch or two.
Also, what do you think groups such as ‘Inform Scotland’ are doing?
Meg merrilees @ 12.13
I did wonder. Not like you to be so adrift
I have had severe concerns over Patrick Harvie’s judgement for a number of years now. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the Greens force another election at the worst possible time, which is this moment, with all the instability of Brexit and Trump’s insane start to his presidency. Put simply I don’t trust Harvie one inch. He made it clear during indyref 1 that independence is not a high priority of his too put in mildly. I don’t have any faith in Harvie’s political judgment, and unfortunately he gives the impression of wanting to be popular with the No side, which is a complete liability at this stage.
I see the Scotsman has the Times poll on another independence referendum as their lead item on the websit.
Is it not time the Rev opened the war chest and commissioned our own poll that we know will give us an accurate picture of where we currently stand with the populatio?
heedtracker says:
30 January, 2017 at 11:01 am
Wullie B says:
“The SNP cant come out and say that or they lose the right to have another referendum as the difference between Scotland and Englands intentions are gone, and I have been hearing that the SNP as it is would be lucky to hold onto Banff and Buchan now due to the pro EU stance ”
Its amazing that the Buchan is not another Orkney, with a Carmichael style yoon in there.
It is tight there but problem is, there’s hardly any fishing industry left in the Buchan. What’s left of the fash has got a huge UKOK media standing for lots of divide and conquer reasons but its the British military presence that really keeps the flag flying, military retirees too ofcourse, but only just. Lovely people too, wing commander Tuffton Buffton types.
There is still an industry there, and when you take in all the supporting industries like fish processors, engineering firms and such, the B&B will once again become a yoon area, it always was a conservative area until Alex Salmond on a ticket of help the fishing
Did you know at the Brexit count if Banff and Buchan was voting as an area rather than along with Aberdeen West and one other it would have been massively pro Brexit, almost double the votes of remain, the other unnamed constituency was also pro Brexit due to land owners and farmers, only Aberdeen West kept that area as Remain, and that came from an SNP observer at the count.
The SNP needs to come out with an EFTA plan if UK goes for a hard Brexit without ties, that way it wins leave and remain support
I respect that Flower of Scotland, but whatever the SNP thinks it is, to many non-SNP folk it’s still the source of leadership which is going to deliver Independence. I don’t buy this “Ah well, we’re just the political mechanism to implement the will of the people”.
If the SNP doesn’t want to lead Indyref2, then who do we get to speak to to get it happening? If we don’t get leadership and structure to the campaign, then we will run out of time, drift into a second defeat, and live out the rest of live in acrimonious obscurity.
Somebody needs to pick up the ball and run with it, and as far as I can see, that’s the SNP. Are they waiting for the right moment? Or waiting for somebody else to do the honours? See? We already lack communication, but I have a moderate surplus of frustration I’m happy to share out equally. ?
SNP X 2 from now on in.
Patrick Harvie, what are you on?
Trump has turned the USA into the Fourth Reich in a matter of days, Theresa May is making weapons for Turkey’s Pol Pot, and Dugdale, Davidson, and Rennie have refused to publicly condemn Trump or the Brit Establishment’s endorsement of the Mad Right.
Rennie came across as a blithering idiot on Brewer’s Parish Council add on the Neil’s London/Westminster Bubble show yesterday.
Laughing coyly like a Dudley D Watkins’ Oor Wullie caricature, this stupid little nobody reminded his pal Gordie about how much he lurvs elections, hee hee.
We are close to Indyref 2 now.
The Greens will vote with the Government or face oblivion.
The LA elections in May will see Fat Frankie the Pieman with his St Trinian’s lusty morals and the crooks of Glasgow’s Tammany Hall kicked out on their ears, but only if we reject this ‘tactical voting’ nonsense, and stick to our guns: SNP x2.
The world is going mad and the online Herald has a Professor Two Jobs WATP sectarian bigot Tomkins photo-op, and nonsense about the Bad SNP neglecting their day job, as NS, and 56 Pro Independence WM MPs take on Tomkins’ and the Better Together Red Blue and Yellow Tories’ now clearly racist, fascist, ultra right wing Puppet Masters, in defence of Scotland, the Scottish People, and our right to be heard.
I recall Kevin McKenna plea for us to cut his Dead Tree Scrolls’ colleagues some slack. There are hundreds of pro independence journalists, but they’ve got to make a living writing for the Man.
Adolf Eichmanns; only obeying orders.
In a matter of days, it has got life threateningly serious.
Trump and May are quite simply off their rockers.
I will not stand by while unelected LisTory Boys get front and centre in our Media to talk local pish, while their Crazy Cabal of May Farage Fox Davis, and my Christ, Boris Johnson spread uber-fascism throughout these isles.
To all those who voted Yes and Leave, it’s make your mind up time,
Will they, as the ubiquitous ‘Big Brain'(att. Nicky Campbell)Professor John Curtice, a pollster working for a government funded UK organisation, vote No in Indyref 2, because their desire to leave the EU under May’s terms is more powerful than the prospect of an Independent Scotland?
Likewise, those who voted No to Independence but Remain in the EU, will they suddenly change their minds because of their pro EU stance and vote Yes to independence where they once voted No, just to stay in Europe?
Prof Curtice stated on Campbell’s show that ‘the polls’ showed roughly the same split as Indyref 1,(45/55) and that Yes converting to No, and No converting to Yes to Leave or Stay in Europe regardless of stance on the Independence question would magically cancel each other out, the Stalemate Gambit.
Ergo, Brexit and Trump will have no affect on voters’ intentions when it comes to Indyref 2.Aye right, Curtice.
‘Big brain’, my arse.
Of course the good Prof knows that any Indyref poll before the Brexshit hits the fan is meaningless, but it gets him all that appearance money on Donalda’s BBC Brexit/Unionist Propaganda Wing.
SNP x 2 every time, until Self Determination, and then and only then can the independent citizens of Scotland have true democracy.
The people of Scotland will decide at the ballot box which Administration they wish to form a government of the people, by the people, and directly responsible to the people of Scotland in Free Scotland..
@ Thrawn says: 30 January, 2017 at 10:16 am:
” … It is that arrogance and monomania of the SNP echoed by its chief propagandists that will be it’s downfall”
Well, Thrawn, – so be it –
I rather like their downfall from a small handful of MP at Westminster to a, very close to 100% representation, still in power at Holyrood after several periods in power and poised to become the leading party in more local councils.
I’ll take that kind of downfall any day.
Manufacturing and fostering ‘wedge issues’ is the established tactic in political jargon.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
You can understand why one side (Unionists usually in Scotland) adopt such tactics to damage their opposition.
What is more difficult is to understand the fools within the target group who get taken in by the tactic!
They profess to be on one side, but end up causing fractures which assist the other side. Some ‘profess’, some probably still believe they are actually on the target side. Gullible, or what?
The trump poll will be put over the same as all these phony polls maybe say 3million signed it but the population of Britain is over 60million so there phony poll will be beaten by 57million but they will still present this as the will of the British people they insult our intelligence all polls should be banned for the fraud that they are they only exist to try to sway the gullable
Did you know at the Brexit count if Banff and Buchan was voting as an area rather than along with Aberdeen West and one other it would have been massively pro Brexit.”
You can argue that about any result Wullie B. And indeed yoon culture does. More Scots for the UK than Remain, therefore Scots are Leavers and pro UK, so shut up and be British yoons rant.
And that’s just the tip of yoon culture’s, never mind election and ref results, its the numbers what count.
Its not. Obvs:D
Breeks says:
Yes. Also there are the practicalities of getting an IndyRef proposal through a parliament so it actually happens.
Only the SNP in Holyrood will ever make that happen. Our MPs in WM can achieve little. The initiating action has to be in Holyrood.
Only then can the make up of YES2 be considered.
@Craig
The Rev mentioned he had money for a poll, but I expect he’s picking the moment. There’s still the JMC today for instance, nearly a last chance saloon for the UK Government to agree to the SNP / SG plan to keep Scotland in the single market. Despite the noises, it hasn’t been formally outrightrejected, and May and her cronies and pet poodle Mundell still make the odd conciliatory tone. It needs to be definitely rejected.
Then there’s Brexit Bill strutting his stuff in the House of Commons. The SNP MPS have to move amendments to the bill on the basis that’s what they were elcted for, and until they’re formally voted down and Brexit Bill becomes an Act, same problem.
My reading behind the scenes of contradictory answers to questions in the polls is that much of the electorate still have trust in the SNP to try to get the Single Market within the UK. Once that’s totally gone, and Sturgeon says “That’s all folks, it’s Indy Ref 2 because there’s nothing left now”, then the polls might start moving.
The unionist activists we see posting don’t represent the standard NO voters – they’re the anti-SNP mob. The electorate generall are not.
Political arrogance has been the downfall of Labour. Other parties should be sensitive to falling into the same trap. I have instances of emailing SNP and Green politicians who did not consider my emails on issues of public concern worthy of a reply. I would not of course put Tory politicians to such a test as I find them beyond contempt, while Willie Rennie’s lot (‘I need all the publicity I can get.’) are not worth the time of day.
The propaganda by the mainstream media today is that some of the news on social media is FAKE, just because they cant control it, and they, by experience know what is fake.!
Re;thrawn@10.16am
‘Monomania’, you say. A vert strong word at the best of times, used against those who support the SNP government, who are doing amazingly well regards the ‘environment’, and ‘social justice’. They are also working within huge constraints of WM austerity and the huge impacts of that on the people of Scotland. They (the SNP) are mitigating the unionists preferred monomaniac objective, it’s called austerity. Austerity which attacks our most vulnerable, and in the process, removes crucial money out of the local economy, that affects the wider economy. People can’t spend in the local shops if they have just been sanctioned by the UK’s DWP, or if they are working for a pittance on zero hours contracts.
The ‘monomania’ of which you speak has been coming from the unionists, they have not shut up about independence. They do not care one jot about securing our SNHS, or building new homes, or bridges essential to Scotland’s infrastructure. They display monomaniacal obstruction by doing down their own country at every single opportunity, too poor they say, when they know that is absolute rubbish!
As for the new ‘powers’, the ScotGov are doing a balancing act, with limited, teensy weensy ‘powers’ that are being thrown at Scotland, while the UK WMGov remove jobs and even job centres in Scotland. WM are throwing some stale, mouldy crumbs and taking back some more slices of the freshly baked, wholesome loaf with the other hand. Devolution light is what we have and no one is being fooled on that one!
WM tories will continue to remove jobs from Scotland, HMRC, DWP, etc, while bolstering their own support by taking those jobs to the parts of england where they want to gain popularity, former labour areas.
The only party at present that can protect Scotland’s interests, is the SNP. The Greens should support the SNP, it’s the only way to gain popularity and remain a good worthwhile opposition in Scotland. After independence, they may well find they become much more popular in Scotland.
The rest of the troughers are a waste of everyone’s time, and not to mention, money.
Tell you what, though, if the Greens help to bring down the government and the ‘pro-indy majority’ is lost as a result (meaning no chance of indyref 2), I for one will be seriously unimpressed!
I notice MSN are putting the Greek economy on the front page again, I am expecting the Scottish economy to be saddled along with this, after all Scotland’s too wee and too poor to survive on its own.
Empire shortbread will twist this story along with many others with rabid glee the minute Nic triggers Indy Ref2.
Message to the empire trolls, ” we know what your up to.”
With Labour heading the same way the Lib Dems did its really dangerous for the pro Indy vote to split.
If support for the SNP goes Green in any significant way and the Yoons concentrate their support on the Conservatives then we will have a reversal of power within the Parliament and all hope for any Independence at all out the window for a full generation or 2 at least.
The time to split the pro indy vote is within the Indy Parliament not before as so many people keep saying to those who want a diverse pro Indy campaign and ideology.
We can sort out the ideologies once we gain the foundations to build them on. Not before.
The Westminster England is superior and comes first parties
will be looking to force another Holyrood Election just for the simple sake of sickening the electorate here with a constant barage of voting.
This tactic they hope will see a small turn out at Indy Ref 2, and secure Scotland as England’s Colony evermore.
Vote Tory for constant austerity cuts for oridanry citizens and tax rebates for the filthy rich.
Vote Labour for the Party that Abstains and haven’t had a good idea in decades. The Millionaire’s Socialist Party.
Vote Liberal The Party of “Lying to the electorate is just part of UK politics” Carmichael only wasted £1 million on a public enquiry into smearing our duely elected First Minister. Carmichael is a lying cheat and his party fully supported his actions. Vote for the Lib Lie Pack!
Vote Green for the Party who don’t seem to be able to recognise that only the SNP are seriously working on renewables and carbon reduction targets?
Vote SNP until your country is free from the Corruption that is Westminster, the HoC, and something pretending to be the media. You can do what you like thereafter, Left, Right, European, Trumpezium, anything that you damn well like.
The SNP majority was lost because voters believed they didn’t have to vote. The Tory vote turns out. The hardcore yoons, like the hardcore patriots turn out. Trumpo it seems won because his side persuaded their opposition to stay away from the polls.
If you want to see a party elected then above all, you have to bother to vote.
If money is needed for a poll get on with it – launch a fundraiser now
I am well fed up with hearing Scotland does not want indyref2
Every NAT group must be developing a fund raising plan for the next 18 months
Awe. Hammer of the Scotch Severin Carrell’s given his Scotland region a The Graun front page slot for a lunchtime treat,
link to archive.is
Cant think why UKOK hackdom’s thinking about Braemar, Balmoral and Heil Trump’s state visit, to their Scotland region of greater England.
Great posts @ Artyhetty and Jack Collatin
@Thrawn, who’s rattled your cage, calling us acolytes?? Way to make your point.
Yesterday on Twitter, James Kelly (who also writes for the FT) and the Rev were flatly accused by this Williamson article of splitting the vote. I was completely outraged by it, as those two, and Bateman were the sane voices, who clearly stated many times:
Vote for who you want, but if you DO want SNP in charge, don’t game the system based on the RISE and Green misleading BS, that the SNP majority is guaranteed.
It was obvious to all but the brain dead, that you cannot PREDICT the vote on the day. So many fell for the crap, saying its fine, everyone says SNP will walk it, so let’s have a few Greens supporting them.
My experience on the day of the vote, as I was tramping the streets with my SNP friend. I said I was fearful of not getting a majority based on what I was hearing/seeing.
She said, yes, my son in law, staunch Scot and Indy, said he is giving his second vote to Greens. I practically threw a fit, but she said she had tried to tell him otherwise.
I knew then, that younger demographic had fell for it.
heedtracker says:
30 January, 2017 at 11:01 am
Wullie B says:
“The SNP cant come out and say that or they lose the right to have another referendum as the difference between Scotland and Englands intentions are gone, and I have been hearing that the SNP as it is would be lucky to hold onto Banff and Buchan now due to the pro EU stance ”
Its amazing that the Buchan is not another Orkney, with a Carmichael style yoon in there.
It is tight there but problem is, there’s hardly any fishing industry left in the Buchan. What’s left of the fash has got a huge UKOK media standing for lots of divide and conquer reasons but its the British military presence that really keeps the flag flying, military retirees too ofcourse, but only just. Lovely people too, wing commander Tuffton Buffton types.
The problem is heedtracker, its not just the fishing boats or fishermen left, its fisherman past, ancilliary jobs like fish factory workers, engineering firms.
It used to be the case of for every fisherman there was 10 jobs dependent on them, now it maybe 6 or 7 and the crux of the matter is that pre Alex Salmond Banff and buchan was very much a conservative and unionist area, and that has never gone away, the tories were the only party that came near the SN in Banff and Buchan, and the fisherman feeling forgotten by the SNP who got in on a ticket of protecting the fishing industry are returning to the party that will “deliver them from evil” that evil being the Common Fisheries Policy of Brussels
The Brexit result in the North east was only saved by having Aberdeen lumped together with banff and Buchan and one other which I cant remember, banff and Buchan had a higher vote for leave, the one I cant remember was also leave but Aberdeen West kept it as a remain area.
Banff and Buchan will almost certainly become Blue once again if Brexit happens before the next general election orif a referendum hasnt been called
The only way to prevent this is the SNP calling a snap referendum, the yes camaign winning and the Scottish Government choosing EFTA as it will def win voted from either side of the fence, the remain side keeping access, yet the leave side getting sovreignty, but if the UK goes for a hard brexit and Scotland doesnt call a referedum then the party is finished here as it is
It doesnt help when even senior members of the party are leave voters against he parties stance
I am genuinely at a loss as to what Bella/SH hopes to achieve by this latest onslaught. It is as if they want to own the Independence movement. Ten years Bella has been going and I can honestly say I had never heard of it until the referendum.
Most of the Indy supporters I know in real life have no strong party affiliation and would probably class themselves left of centre with a belief in a less divided society with good quality, well funded public services and favour renewables and greenish ethics. All agree that at this time the SNP seems the strongest instrument to gain independence and acknowledge the broad church approach they have.
I cannot for the life of me see what can be gained by telling people who to vote for and that they owe a vote to the left. If the Greens or Rise want more votes next time they have to earn them and if Bella/ SH are their media voice then good luck with that.
For me, the hubristic headline and picture of Nicola Sturgeon a week before the 2016 election sounded the death knell for the SH. They knew what they were doing in nurturing a sense of complacency to give people the confidence to vote Green or Rise. If they are stirring for an election they may kill off Indy for years because tactical voting is a volatile beast.
Maybe that is what they want? Maybe talking, writing and rapping about it is a much more lucrative occupation than achieving it?
@mike d says: 30 January, 2017 at 10:57 am:
“O/t on victoria Derbyshire this morning talking about fake news on the ‘internet . No mention about fake news on the BBC and msm.”
I woke to my radio alarm this morning. Usually I had it set to Radio 4. There was some guy on the news actually shouting down about, “Fake News”.
The laughable thing was he was ranting on about the UK as, “The Country”, and also as, “Britain”, and talking about, “Brexit”, but he thought it was only the on-line sites that were spreading fake news.
So later I had a read at the Ceefax text service on Radio Jockland on their TV channel and read the article :-
“Fake News inquiry to be launched by MPs.”
That’ll be the same MPs that have made the Westminster Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom into a de facto parliament of the country of England that now runs the, “United Kingdom”, but calls it, “Britain”, and, “The Country”, that runs the country of England as the ruling country devolving the country 0f England’s powers over their three subservient dominion countries by use of the threat of a, “British”, Army, Navy and Air-Force.
These guys wouldn’t recognise fake news it bit their collective bums.
A poem on Trump in a New Zealand poetry competition won by a wee lass from Scotland, in the style of Robert Burns.
You can read it and watch her recite it in the video:
link to stuff.co.nz
Wullie B says:
30 January, 2017 at 1:28 pm
heedtracker says:
30 January, 2017 at 11:01 am
Telling us, you voted one way but do as I say you voted is an odd case to make Wullie. Yes, a lot of unionists and tories do this, aswell as being able to read minds too.
A lot of leading fishing Scots industry are very pro EU. Its because of the EU that there is still a Scots fishing industry. Much of the highest quality Scots fishing industry produce goes straight to Europe.
Fish workers were bullshitted heavily by UKOK campers, tory BBC Scotland in particular was the worst offender for kidding people on they’d get devo over Scottish North Sea and Atlantic fisheries, if they voted Leave.
Ofcourse its all just another pack of tory lies.
link to bbc.co.uk
“We have a management plan and from my experience that is slowly starting to work. Every stock is sustainable.
“If we were to come out of Europe we could find ourselves with management being controlled by a Westminster government. How would they cope with that?”
He added: “I let evidence speak for itself – we have a growing fishing industry.
“Our fishing industry would be knocked back 10 years, throwing it into crisis. It’s not perfect, fishing management is very complex.”
I’d add, NEVER trust the tories, whatever you do for a living in Scotland.
You’ve got to love the Scottish Tories for their cupidity (or is it stupidity?). From the actual Times poll Panelbase data tables, in response to the question about “When do you think another Scottish independence referendum should be held?”:
“In the next year or two, while the UK is negotiating to leave the EU – 27%
About two years from now, when the UK has finished negotiating to leave the EU – 23%
There should not be another Scottish independence referendum in the next few years – 51%”
Makes a bit of a nonsense of their infographic which is totally out of scale anyway!
link to panelbase.com
You’ve gotta love the Tories – desperate for even a couple of days before they get totally discredited. Anyone copied that infographic of theirs …
Great comment Jack Collatin@12.43
I’m on Wings lots of times a day but don’t comment much because there are much better commenters than me. However this nonsense about splitting the vote, is so dangerous to us gaining our Independence that I was persuaded to.
Heedtracker, am very much SNP, but the words coming out of industry ears is what I am using . The fact is Salmond got in on a save the fishing ticket, time and time again it was we need out of Europe to save the industry, but the SNPnever had the power to change it, then in last decade it’s Eu this good and EU that good, I believe we need the euro markets, the boats need the EU for crewmen, , basically I would vote yes to an EFTA with Schengen Agreement, but Fergus Ewing was talking about being in Europe without the CFP, the only way that will happen is if the Scot Gov push for an EFT agreement rather than full membership, that gives the Norway style access to EU that senior ministers are banging on about now
Yeah, that “fall in support for an independence referendum” graphic is on Ruth Davidson’s twitter. It has a stragint line showing 43% – 32% (-11) – 27% (-5) which is clearly not a straight line graph as the Tories misrepresent it KH style.
It should of course be a V shape for 43% – 32% (perhaps) – 50%.
Ooops, the Tories pooped again.
The Unionist argument:
In 1707 England said if you don’t join our Union we will kill you
In 2017 England says if you leave our Union we will kill you (trade starvation)
Scotland has been eating cereal for a long time and in 2014 Scotland voted to keep eating cereal forever and ever and ever, that menu is to remain the same forever
If Scotland wants to eat something different for a change we will kill you or starve you or well we’ll do something to harm you
Signed: With love, The Brits
If another election is called because the S.N.P.c,an not get their budget through they should have independence in their manifesto thus removing the need for ind.,2
I am sure an independent Scotland within the EU would have a very different approach to the CFP than that taken previously by the UK.
DerekM says:
30 January, 2017 at 11:40 am
“Wow that is quite a telling result 22% of No voters want another indyref within 2 years.
Why would you want another indyref if you were a no voter,so you could now vote yes?”
Maybe because you think yes would lose if it was called before Brexit and kill off independence indefinitely
Just a thought
Graeme
Brian Powell says:
30 January, 2017 at 1:35 pm
A poem on Trump in a New Zealand poetry competition won by a wee lass from Scotland, in the style of Robert Burns.
Ha ha ha. Excellent.
Saw a funny quip too about “Can we no find some oil pipelines to build at Balmedie?”
Well, it made me chuckle.
People have been claiming things about 2011 versus 2016 elections which didn’t sound right, so I checked the results.
Turn out
2011 50.4%
2016 55.6%
SNP Consituency vote
2011 902,915 & 45.4%
2016 1,059,897 & 46.5%
SNP Regional vote
2011 876,421 & 44.0%
2016 953,587 & 41.7%
Green Consituency vote
2011 NA
2016 13,172 & 0.6%
Green Regional vote
2011 87,060 & 4.4%
2016 150,426 & 6.6%
– Turn out % UP
– SNP Consituency vote UP absolute & percentage
– SNP Regional vote DOWN as percentage
– Green Regional vote UP absolute & percentage
Consider these, though. Constituency and regional.
2011
Labour 630,461 & 31.7% and 523,559 & 26.3%
Conservative 276,652 & 13.9% and 245,967 & 12.4%
Liberal Democrats 157,714 & 7.9% and 103,472 & 5.2%
2016
Labour 514,261 & 22.6% and 435,919 & 19.1%
Conservative 501,844 & 22.0% and 524,222 & 22.9%
Liberal Democrats 178,238 & 7.8% and 119,284 & 5.2%
Who REALLY benefited most from 2nd vote being used ‘tactically’? The Tories!
Also, there does seem to a surprising number of people in general willing to use their list vote differently. That seems very odd to me.
– 1 in 3 LibDems
– 1 in 6 Lab
The List/Regional vote should be your MAIN choice.
Looks like a lot of people think it’s STV style 1st choice, 2nd choice!
When Alex Salmond talked about leaving the EU to save Scotlands fishing industry it was because Scotland had no say in the EU about our fishing industry and the UK as member state was bargaining our rights away once again with no consultation
In the EU Scotland gets a say just like Wallonia did over trade agreements
There’s power to be had in the EU even if you’re small
In the UK there’s nothing nada zilch zero
Wullie B says:
30 January, 2017 at 1:56 pm
Heedtracker, am very much SNP, but
But did you read what the Remain voter in that BBC Scotland thing said about the EU? Granted the gits stick anyone that they dont want you to hear from, at the bottom of everything. But one more time,
“Fish processor Andrew Charles is worried about what would replace the EU
“We have a management plan and from my experience that is slowly starting to work. Every stock is sustainable.
“If we were to come out of Europe we could find ourselves with management being controlled by a Westminster government. How would they cope with that?”
He added: “I let evidence speak for itself – we have a growing fishing industry.
“Our fishing industry would be knocked back 10 years, throwing it into crisis. It’s not perfect, fishing management is very complex.”
Fact is, UK fishing industry nearly emptied our seas of all life Wullie. Its likely that without the EU, there’d be nothing left of anything to do with the fishing now. Look at how Iceland had to fight them off. A lot of them are now emptying deep sea Atlantic fisheries of all life, off North Africa as we chat here.
One of the great strengths of having a Brussels like government in charge of our resources like this, is that there is almost no chance of tory style pork barrel politics, or Brussels cant be got at, by get rich quick types.
This fact of EU life is really what’s driven Brexit, the filthy rich were up against a parliament of 600 million, and not even a vicious old tory like Murdoch could reach them
Max vile sep pomposity level, achieved:D
Regardless of Bertie Armstrong’s great hope for Scottish fishermen post BREXIT, the fact is, as long as Scotland remains in the UK, control of fishing will never be granted to Scotland.
WM needs Scottish fishing grounds. It’s too big an asset and a negotiating tool to hand over to Holyrood. They may be daft but they are not that stupid. 🙂
After BREXIT, the Scottish fishing industry will be sold down the Swannee in order to protect other interests of WM.
I don’t think that the LEAVE/ NO voters of Buchan have thought that one through properly – yet.
@Breeks says: 30 January, 2017 at 11:53 am:
… “I believe it is sheer folly to believe we will have 2 years beyond the triggering of Article 50 to bring home a successful Indyref2 campaign.”
If you imagine that the UK PM will submit an Article 50 request to leave the EU and the next day the UK will be walking away from the EU with Scotland, Wales and NI in tow then you are more delusional that T. May and her Tory Blue/Red/Yellow Westminster Establishment buddies.
In the first place the European Parliament will not even have a date set to debate the matter. First the request to leave will have to be made via the EC, (The European Commission are the European Parliament’s Civil Service).
They will dissect it and consider all the implications but are prevented from doing so officially yet for as yet the, so called, “Brexit”, is no more to Europe than a threat to leave. A sort of Westminster Establishment Blackmail attempt. Indeed that was how it began with Cameron never imagining it would ever actually happen.
Why do you suppose he had to resign? He gambled and lost the bet. He simply was attempting to screw some more rebate out of the EU and the EU bluffed him out.
So the EC will take as long as they can string it out for in order for the EU to continue getting the Westminster UK money coming in. Then they will submit their findings and recommendations to the Proper EU Ministers who in turn will take as long as they can get away with in considering the matter before making their submissions to the parliament. First of all the, so called, “Brexit”, will be at the back of the queue of all EU business. It is only Westminster that imagines it is ultra important in the EU scale of things.
The parliament has political parties like every other parliament and they will hold differing view. This will be a lengthy drawn out matter before a bill is proposed and that will then go to the various parties who will oppose, amend, or both, the various aspects of the proposed bill.
Probably it will shuffle to and fro between the parliament and the EC for a while before if gets the next reading.
Meanwhile other countries will not officially strike trade deals with Westminster because nothing is yet settled. Even then trade deals can take decades.
I believe we are in for a very long haul before we even know if the UK is leaving and that itself will take at very least 2 years as laid down in the EU rules.
Oh you are so uber suspicious of our glorious press Stu!
Yes spot on again. The MSM are going to try and split the vote like the last time. It never gets old. They and Bella can get to hell. Incidentally is Bella an instrument of the MSM?
I don’t thinks there will be an election. It would be suicide for the Greens bringing down the party of independence!
Any truth in the rumor that the SNP is about to ditch full EU membership in favour of Norway style set up. This will appease the little Scotlanders who have said they wont vote indy if in EU!
“…and we’ve only come up with one possible explanation – it’s expecting another election.”
Or attempting to influence/provoke/engineer an early election.
Alan says:
30 January, 2017 at 11:32 am
” Flower of Scotland says:
30 January, 2017 at 10:31 am
“See? Even though STV doesn’t work like Holyrood’s FPTP+AMS, the backlash from last year’s tactical voting is causing people to oppose giving the Greens any votes at all in the council elections.
This could lead to majority unionist control of most councils, despite the SNP becoming the largest party in all of them.”
Nonsense. If you believe that, please show your workings in an example.
@ Graham
Not sure where you got your thought from my post Graham.
And no i dont think yes would lose i think we would get robbed by the UK cheating scum once again in a rigged tory election fraud,that is why i advocate after A50 is signed and not before so we can avoid westminster trying to run the referendum count.
Sheesh. So the Herald happily leaves links to Telegraph or even Express articles, but deletes my link to the actual Panelbase data tables which shows the actual questions adding up to 50% (49.46% to be accurate).
So I ahve to post a long-winded word explanation of how to navigate to that table, becuase Panelbase who are REQUIRED to publish data tables so long after a newspaper uses their results b the Polling Council, try hard to hide them away under the tab “media” with the tab “polls” on their main page.
Such fucking dishonesty in the media – and polling organisations.
Regarding indyref2 and a potential imminent Holyrood election, both need to come later rather than sooner IMO.
What needs to happen is for a pillar of the Union to be undermined in order for Yoon confidence to fall.
We need to see economic or social cohesiveness south of the border to fall away, in order for yoons to start to see the Union in a new light.
Brexit may set in motion events that bring about the fall of a pillar.
I can imagine economic chaos hitting people in their pockets. An economic wake up call then may result with a view developing that the UK is a basketcase becoming prevalent and thus weakening Yoon confidence in the UK.
Ditto for social cohesion; if Brexit doesn’t deliver a resurgent UK.
Ditto for immigration; if non EU immigration continues unchecked into England (which it will) and there is a perception from Brexiteers that they have been betrayed, then trouble will erupt.
Yoon culture will inevitably be fatally undermined for some when the British Empire is not immediately reconstituted the day after Brexit.
Scots of an independent nature just need to be patient. We need to resist calls for actions that may be premature.
I feel this reflects badly on Prof Curtice who is, essentially, a scientist who doesn’t really like making opinions that the evidence doesn’t back up (these days). Don’t really want him getting a reputation of giving advisory information when in fact he analyses past data and spots trends. It’s quite unfair and academics are often misrepresented in this way which is how we got to the “the polls are wrong” nonsense.
@Jack Collatin (12.43) –
Well said indeed. Totally agree.
So Chris Musson, political editor of Scottish Sun tweets: “Holyrood parties accusing each other of “fake news” and “alternative facts” over piddly issues. Get a grip. Save it for when it matters”.
Now if only we didn’t have LabConLib parties and ‘Scottish newspapers’ peddling endless deliberately distorted and made up ‘news’ to stop Scotland becoming a self-governing country, that might have sounded quite good.
But under the present circumstances it sounds like he is talking shite.
DerekM says:
30 January, 2017 at 2:52 pm
@ Graham
“Not sure where you got your thought from my post Graham.
And no i dont think yes would lose i think we would get robbed by the UK cheating scum once again in a rigged tory election fraud,that is why i advocate after A50 is signed and not before so we can avoid westminster trying to run the referendum count.”
Sorry Derek I wasn’t meaning to suggest you think Yes would lose I was talking about the 22% No voters who want a referendum within the next 2 years
Graeme
@Jack Collatin 12.43
Well said Jack.
Jeezy peeps, what a situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Get prepared for the traps set and waiting on either path.
Anyways – SNP/SNP it’ll be from me if need be. This kind of shite can wait until after independence.
For the immediate future we should let britnats continue on their self-destructive course.
@Giving Goose
See that Panelbase poll which the Times reported as support for Indy Ref 2 dropped to 27% an the Tories seized on it as did most of the media, whereas support is at 50% (49.46%).
That’s risen apparently from 32% in the last poll, that’s clearly why the unionists are so desperately and deliberately misrepresenting it, and becomes therefore a bit of a guideline.
50% want a referendum within or in 2 years. Which is along the lines of when Sturgeon and Salmond are saying it would be. So the planets are lining up at last, and the flat-earthers are having a spasm.
It’s bye bye UK.
O/T
Brexit meeting finished.
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
Split voting cost the SNP two seats. There’s no question about it.
link to democraticaudit.com
Legerwood @12.32
Just shows how adrift things can seem if you try to think like (t)Ruthless Davidson!
Found this-
Mike Russell on BBC R4 this morning – 1hour 50 mins in. discussing Brexit prior to the meeting in Cardiff this morning.
link to bbc.co.uk
Wullie B
is totally correct. Re fishing anything other than getting out of CFP is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. Pre- Greece EU was a different place… iScotland will need Coastal State Status, the renewable resource of fish (for an unhealthy population) and access to it under UNCLOS as ‘an economic need of coastal communities’ (for job creation, processing,, engineers,ship building, fisheries protection). Sorry to use this phrase but it is ‘Best of Both Worlds’..Single market, Customs Union, renewable healthy food resources, freedom of movement..EEA EFTA.
Wise move to shift in the policy stays a bit at this time.
Started at 3.30pm
#Brexit on the agenda as MEPs of the @EPInstitutional Committee hold a discussion w/ @scotgov: Watch Live from 1530
link to europarl.europa.eu …
No worries Graham and that one still stumps me,i mean why if they do not want independence do 22% want another indyref,i know some yoons are pretty thick and might want indyref2 so they can vote no which in itself is as mad as a box of frogs but not 22%.
I want indyref2 so i can vote no just does not cut it,why would you say on a poll you want indyref2 if you are going to vote no,could this be the no/remain vote changing their mind to yes.
“in 2016 the list vote share for pro-independence parties increased, but was more split than in 2011 – just as the Sunday Herald and others had demanded – yet the number of pro-indy MSPs went down.” – This sounds like evidence for your argument but it ignores the fact that the SNP took more constituency seats, which had a large effect on regional seats won.
Central Scotland
2011:
Constituency: SNP=6 seats, Labour=3 seats
Regional: SNP=3 seats (46.4% of vote),
2016:
Constituency: SNP=9 seats
Regional: SNP=0 seats (47.7% of vote), Tories=3 (16.1%), Greens=0 (4.7%)
So in 2016 the SNP increased their regional vote share in Central Scotland but actually got zero regional seats (3 fewer than in 2011). I put the Tories in there because it shows how many pro-indy seats would have been possible if 11.4% of the SNP’s vote had gone to the greens (not quite that simple, I know, but the greens would have received more seats per vote).
Glasgow
2011:
Constituency: SNP=5 seats, Labour=4 seats
Regional: SNP=2 seats (39.8%), Labour=3 (35.0%), Tories=1 (6.1%), Greens=1 (6.0%)
2016:
Constituency: SNP=9 seats
Regional: SNP=0 seats (44.8%), Labour=4 (23.8%), Tories=2 (11.9%), Greens=1 (9.4%)
Again, the SNP’s regional vote share increased and they got rewarded with zero seats (2 fewer than in 2011) because they took all the constituency seats. If 1.5% of the SNP’s regional votes had gone to green, we would have had an extra pro-indy seat.
Lothian
2011:
Constituency: SNP=8 seats, Labour=1 seat
Regional: SNP=0 seats (39.2%), Labour=3 (24.9%), Tories=2 (11.7%), Greens=1 (7.6%), Margo MacDonald=1 (6.6%)
2016:
Constituency: SNP=6 seats, Labour=1, Tories=1, LibDem=1
Regional: SNP=0 seats (36.2%), Tories=3 (22.9%), Labour=2 (20.8%), Greens=2 (10.6%)
I included Lothian because it is where I voted (SNP/Green in case you’re wondering). SNP got fewer regional votes but it didn’t change their regional vote share as it was already on zero. Interestingly, the regional indy-supporting vote share decreased from 53.4% in 2011 to 46.2% in 2016 but the number of indy-supporting seats remained the same (probably because the Tories, Labour and LibDem’s picked up a constituency seat each).
Apologies for the long post but it is a little more complicated than the original quote from Rev. Stu. You can’t look at the list (regional) vote/seat share in isolation.
If the SNP is likely to win all the constituency seats then votes for another pro-indy party will return more regional seats per vote. If the SNP doesn’t collect all the constituency seats then they are more likely to pick up regional seats if they get a large regional vote share too Another pro-indy party would still get a better return of seats for the same amount of votes, however, this only works if the regional votes for pro-indy parties aren’t spread too thin between multiple parties.
Is Nicola telling May today that Scotland should go for a Norway-type EU relationship thereby garnering the support of both remainers and leavers in Scotland?
While discussing this issue with friends, some of them unionists, at the weekend, I asked why NO voters would want another crack at an independence referendum,
To vote NO again?
Is it any wonder the buggers are worried.
Love this site. I am a ‘lurker’, mainly due to others making comments more succintly than I ever could.
More power to you rev. Tick tock.
Just had a leaflet delivered from list MSP Alison Harris. Only by studying the microscopic lettering at the bottom did I discover that she is a tory. It seems that Davidson’s policy of hiding her party’s name is to continue.
galamcennalath 10:10 am
You wrote: “At this absolutely crucial time on our road to Indy, everyone in the Yes camp should be staying focused on Indy. The sad truth is, not all will. If the Greens provoke an election right now, they will be rightly punished.”
How about: “At this absolutely crucial time on our road to (Brexit), everyone should be staying focused on Brexit. The sad truth is, not all will. If the (SNP) provoke an (Independence Referendum) right now, they will be rightly punished”
sauce, goose, etc ….
Curtice comments on this poll link to panelbase.com lack credibility when you calculate the proportions of SNP votes in the independence question. It’s about 46% and 40% rather than 50 and 46.5 for UK and Holyrood. Guess it’s easy to get a low support for independence if you under represent independence supporters.
@KraftyKris – ach you had to go and complicate it!
@Dan Huil – I don’t think it would please the ‘leavers’ if it meant being part of the Schengen Area, like Norway.
O/T Nicola Sturgeon comments from Belfast Telegraph:
“Nicola Sturgeon has said she will judge whether Scotland’s voice is going to be heard in the Brexit process before Article 50 is triggered, warning that “time is running out” to reach a compromise with the UK Government.”
“The First Minister’s comments will give rise to speculation that she could announce a second referendum on independence as early as March.”
link to archive.is
@KraftyKris
…are you sure that the Greens are a pro Independence Party? A supporter of Independence has as their first objective the right of the people who live in Scotland to decide the politics of Scotland.
I put Scotland first and that means getting behind a party with a long proven record on fighting for Independence. The best way to achieve Independence is unity of purpose.
You like many others wish to split the vote for Party interest. A very short term focus on backing a united front may require longer term party policies to be put on hold for that interim.
What comes first your Nation or your Party.
What are the Green Party objectives? A cosy little pressure group in a Holyrood run by Westminster for another 300 years.
@Reluctant Nationalist
Not all leavers, but a sizable chunk.
@Dan Huil Interesting, where did you hear that? There’s seemingly an article about that in the Times today (behind a paywall and I wouldn’t link to it anyway).
Don’t know who the source is but there’s been murmurings to that effect for a wee while now. Anyone notice in Alec’s interview with Sky on Sunday morning that he was very careful to mention retaining EEA membership (not EU) and also cited Liechtenstein/Switzerland as the example for EEA/non-EEA member trade.
@Soutron
link to twitter.com
Could be kite-flying of course.
SNP re Times story: “we are clear that remaining in the EU is the best position for Scotland, and that is what we are committed to.”
link to twitter.com
Even more ridiculously, they’ve got a ratio of 4.77 Scots:English respondents when the actual ration is about 9.6
Harvie strikes me as being a bit dicey but not stupid, though on that I could of course be wrong. What I mean is surely but surely Harvie and the SGP can see that their influence in Holyrood in an independent Scotland would be considerably magnified compared to the sideshow that they represent within the union.
Don’t they get it? They can disagree about aspects of specific policies but if they had real smarts they’d know that in order to ultimately further their own agenda in Scotland they need to back independence to the hilt. It’s not even as if they’d have to make some fundamental existentialist shift like slab or whatever, just get behind what’s right for Scotland.
I’ve never voted Green before and certainly never will before independence. After then I may do but if they make it harder to achieve than it already is then I don’t think I could vote for them ever.
As for Bella, the SH ad nauseum as far as I’m concerned they can go take a running jump, preferably over the nearest cliff.
SNP X 2 (or 3, 4 etc)
I see things differently from many of the commentators.
The Green MSPs were elected on their manifesto. MSPs should fight for their manifesto pledges, not throw them away at the chance of being kingmakers like the LibDems did to have their illicit affair with the Tories at Westminster.
Also, very importantly, there may be quite a number of YES supporters who are not big fans of the SNP’s other policies as lacking imagination and being too conservative in more ways than one and regard some of their MSPs as no better than the “jobs for the boys” former Labour MSPs they replaced. I am one of them who feel this way.
Most importantly of all. If the SNP and others who want Scotland to have independence and want to build a better country country, then the both the SNP and Greens cannot have it all their own way.
I feel both the SNP and Greens could keep to their manifesto pledges and work out a compromise budget.
If the SNP want it all their own way with less than 50% of the popular vote, that would remind me of the Westminster style of governments which so many of us despise.
If there is a Scottish election, I would probably give my first vote to the SNP, but I would feel good about giving my second vote to the Greens – especially if that means increasing the pressure on the SNP to implement policies that help protect the enviroment and promote a society that reduces poverty and lack of opportunity for the disadvantaged.
She nervously glances behind anticipating hammers after dot crime.
macart @ 3.21
The last thing that we need is a snap election now before Brexit bites.
I see the odd McDougall Marauder has tip toed on here to suggest that we conflate Holyrood/ Second EU Referendum/ Indy ref 2 into a single issue election, and ‘bring it on’.
Unionists Brexiteers, Trumpette Appeasers would like nothing better.
Indyref 2 will be at the Scottish people’s time of choosing. Not at the whim of an insignificant Lib Dem politician, who daily appears more and more ridiculous. I reckon Cole Hamilton who rose without trace will be taking over soon.
Patrick Harvie seemed to have a bit about him; I’m beginning to wonder now.
Nobody in their right mind would bring down a Government because it did not introduce a 60% rate of income tax, which at the moment is clearly against the will of the Scottish people.
MacKay is diverting hundreds of millions directly to shools and joined up Health and Care for elderly patients leaving hospital; the precise ‘driving down decision making to its lowest level’ that Harvie and the Greens advocated.
LA’s can raise CT by 3%, again local revenue raising powers for which Opposition Parties have campaigned over the period of the CT freeze.
McAveety is raising £7.5 million from this poor pensioner alone, as GCC increases CT by the max 3%.
MacKay’s budget is hardly the result of a Committee charged with designing a horse, but coming up with a camel.
Most of his proposals are tepid to say the least, and remarkable given the 40% cuts to LA funding Ruth Davidson has imposed on English Councils.
The road is long, Patrick, with many a winding turn.
Ruth on STV news today was obviously hacked off with Big T, and her Party’s ‘I have in my hand a piece of paper’ appeasement following Trump’s first 7 days.
And so she should effin’ be.
Indyref 2? September ’18.
I’m following your stuff avidly, Sam.
Perhaps it’s time for your own blog? Just saying, like.
Re SNP changing policy from EU to EEA/EFTA.
I honestly think it’s mischief making.
EEA/EFTA is on the table as part of the compromise offered to WM. Which they will, of course reject – not if, but how soon. Nicola seems to be pushing for a yay/nae prior to Article50.
This combined with the probably ejection of all SNP amendments at WM would move us well towards IndyRef2.
Personally I think it is inconceivable that the SG will go into a Brexit triggered IndyRef2 on a ticket of ‘Scotland outside the EU’.
62% voted for the EU, not something else. That solid mandate is a foundation of SG’s arguments.
Then we have the EU. IMO we can expect a positive response to Indy within the EU. It would’nt surprise me if it was very positive as a counter to the hard anti EU stance of London. How would the EU feel if Scotland made moves which could be interpreted as we are no better than the Little Englanders? If we commit to the EU, the EU will commit to us – I’m certain.
I understand the attractions of being like Norway, in every sense. However, we have a long way to go and much work to be done shredding the shackles of UKOK rule. We need the EU fully on side.
@ KraftyKris at 3.45
Which is exactly why it is so disingenuous/dishonest to promote tactical voting on the list. People should vote for the party/candidate they want to be represented by, not try to guess how tens of thousands of other voters might behave in two separate ballots, each with its own system.
not sure why bella has decided to drag up this issue again, while I agree with stu, we can not rule out another GE or HE in the near future, it seems like a distant possibility
however, what is certain is the council elections followed by the indyref2 campaign. if yes, then 2 years of negotiations followed by the 1st independent holyrood election
we must, i repeat, we must lock out a unionist majority for that session. many people may thin it is down and dusted after a yes victory but unless we control holyrood during that critical term, the unionists could force through indyref3 and undo the indy settlement. we would find ourselves in the same position the unionists did after indyref1
to that end, i would argue tactical voting in holyrood 2020 but i think the other indy parties are not trusted enough to gain the support mass support needed.
I proposed a new party was formed for just this purpose for 2016 but it wasnt taken seriously.
various options, SNP2, YES, even a WOS party.
we should revisit this option when the next holy rood election comes round. it would be a 5 year job only, if we succeed in blocking the unionists for 5 years after indy negotiations, I think we could be certain that the union would be over for good
we would need
a name
a simple constitution
a simple manifesto that everyone in the yes movement can and would agree on with a commitment to thwart the unionists at every opportunity and support the ruling indy party and or coalition
a crowd fund to pay the candidate fees and campaign material
5 x 8 volunteers to stand on each of the 8 lists
(they would have to resign any existing party members)
this would go far to removing the indy squabbling, tactical voting could only work if everyone supported it
eg I dont know if robert peffers (or stu campbell for that matter) is snp or not, but i have no doubt he fully supports an indy scotland and would never support any unionist ploy, etc
would I vote for him? hell yes, would you?
I’ve never voted Green before and certainly never will before independence.
After, I may do, but if they make it harder, I could never vote for them ever.
SNP * 2
ot
the SNP is thinking about abandoning full EU membership as its preferred option for an independent Scotland. Instead senior party figures are considering whether the party’s policy should be for Scotland to have a Norway-style relationship with the EU
snigger, dads, chic, told ya
remember where you heard it first folks 🙂
it is belter of an idea, it will guarentee a land slide yes in indyref2
Clootie, I don’t really have a solid party preference and last time I checked the greens were an independence supporting party.
I’m not really sure you understood my comment, I did say that the SNP would get more regional seats if they didn’t win most of the constituency seats. I think voting SNPx2 makes sense in the South of Scotland where the SNP have taken less than half the constituency seats in 2011 and 2016.
In 2011 the SNP collected 8 constituency seats in the Lothian region, that was a large factor for me voting SNP/Green in 2016. Even though they only collected 6 constituency seats on 2016, I still feel like I made the right choice.
Statement o the brexit meeting
link to news.gov.scot
Gullible independence supporters buy The Sunday Herald and The National to keep The Herald alive.
I become more of a conspiracy theorist every day.
How did we get into the state of describing the Consituency votes a 1/first and the Regional List votes 2/second.
Most people vote for a party, and in that respect, the Regional List vote could claim to be the main vote. In some ways it’s you choosing which party you wish to govern.
However, consider the way all this was set up in the first place. The idea was to deny the SNP a majority. It was assumed a coalition of several Unionist parties would keep Scotland under control forever.
If that was the primary objective then it would make sense to split the vote between two parties, any two almost.
Thus I propose that the misinterpretation of the two votes as 1&2, and open to being viewed as pseudo-STV, was intentional and part of the design.
Thanks, Nana.
Interesting session in the EU just now.
Spain taking the party line but admitting it’s nothing personal to Scotland; ‘Rules is Rules’ and we have to stick by them i.e. the UK is the member state.
Chair of the committee says the point of today is to hear from Scotland, N. Ireland and Gibraltar. N. Ireland not able to present their case so Scotland and Gibraltar are the guests of the Committee to have an opportunity to hear their thoughts on Brexit and Implications.
Hyslop, at one point, made the point it is not just about Scottish people but also, how do we look after EU nationals living and working in Scotland.
link to europarl.europa.eu …
@sensibledave says: 30 January, 2017 at 3:53 pm
” … If the (SNP) provoke an (Independence Referendum) right now, they will be rightly punished””
I couldn’t type fore laughing, sensibledave
Bring it on, now who was it said that? Was it someone famous?
Anyway! Yes Dave I hope the Scottish people will punish the SNP – like they did in the last election, and the one before that, and the one before that too.
Now perhaps you just are not very perceptive – but. In spite of being in government, longer than most political parties do without losing their popularity. The SNP have been increasing their share of the votes.
So, yes, they did lose their overall majority at Holyrood but that had nothing to do with their share of the vote decreasing. They lost the overall majority because right from the very leaderships of the opposition parties they mainly got in from the list vote.
The bulk of the opposition got in by the second, or third counts.
The thing is that a list only party “cheat” has already been attempted by Labour and the coop candidates and knocked back. Any organised coalition designed to reset your seat count for purposes of gaining more list seats than your share of support will fail. It’s not that no one takes the idea seriously, it’s that it’s already been thought through.
All of which will be rendered moot if every party but the Conservatives vote for a move towards a form of STV even if only on the list.
Nana @4.55
That statement’s definitely red-hot ‘off the press’.
I would say, a blistering statement from Nicola.
Nana says:
Also, certainly not coincidental …..
link to news.gov.scot
“And we also believe that the European Parliament – which represents the voice of EU citizens – has the right to challenge whether the Article 50 negotiations respect the rights of citizens in all parts of the UK.”
….
“As a nation which voted overwhelmingly to remain within the European Union we seek your solidarity and support.”
Crazycat, I understand your point but for me an independent Scotland, with a proportional representation voting system, is the goal. Then it would be really easy to vote for who you wanted. Right now I’m not overly fussed if the pro-independence majority is made up of solely SNP politicians or a mix with the greens.
I do think if you look at previous votes in your constituency you can get a rough idea of how to vote tactically. The problem is the voting system we have now is designed to make it difficult for the SNP to hold a majority. It was mentioned in the comments above that a regional/list party that was committed to independence would be a good idea, I would agree.
schrodingers cat
Few years ago, Alex Salmond was asked by a journo, maybe that Jamie Ross, what he thought about WoS and he was a tad sniffy, to say the least. Something like, anything with Reverend in it is dubious. Now you can see what he was heading off at the pass.
Last thing Scotland needs now is a new new party. Keep it simple stupid, is what I say:D
Meg merrilees says:
Combined with the ‘request for assistance’ to the EU released at much the same time (above), I see a plan coming together.
Twitter …
Philip Sim? @BBCPhilipSim
After JMC meetings with Theresa May in Cardiff, Nicola Sturgeon tells BBC that “the next few weeks are going to be really critical”
And who said 2017 would be boring? We aren’t out of January yet!
Dan Huil says:
30 January, 2017 at 3:46 pm
Is Nicola telling May today that Scotland should go for a Norway-type EU relationship thereby garnering the support of both remainers and leavers in Scotland?
… No support from this remainder. Norway has a Trade Deal with the EU, not membership. Membership yes or no was the fulcrum of the Brexit referendum. Whatever mandate and momentum that Scottish majority delivered for staying in the EU is pissed up against the wall if you accept Brexit and and try to secure lesser Trade Deal with EFTA, especially as a sub-sovereign “region” of the UK and in the teeth of Westminster’s certain resistance.
It is sovereignty we need, and with that comes the main event prize, which is continued membership status in the EU. We have a powerful mandate from the Brexit referendum to hold on to our EU membership. Why throw it all away?
Let’s deal with one problem at a time. Stop following the Unionist agenda with its Europhobic prejudices and imbalances, and start making the case for staying in Europe, so that fewer than 1 in 3 Independentists want to exit the EU. With a progressive campaign, we can raise support for EU membership as we raise support for Indy. Don’t forget, just like the case for Independence, the EU we know today is still being brought to you courtesy of the same despicable BBC which gave legs to Brexit and Farage’s UKIP, and even got UKIP Coburn elected to represent Scotland’s interests in Europe. Demand that our “media” starts telling the truth about Europe, not pedalling more xenophobic bile and anti European prejudice and rhetoric, and perhaps hostility towards Europe will properly realign itself.
@Mr Peffers.
I hope you’re right Robert. Because I don’t trust Theresa May to make the right call about Brexit. She is weak, and strategically niaive. Just look at her emphemeral opinions, a remainder who is now an ardent Hard Brexiteer. Trump has her tied in knots. A soft Brexit with access to the Single Market has turned into the Hard Brexit which the entire continent of Europe envisaged on the very day Brexit was announced. Being uncharted territory, I am unsure how likely it is for a Hard Brexit to shake out as a Hard and Dirty Brexit, with no negotiated exit whatsoever, but the possibility seems all too credible.
Westminster has already waffled on about the deal it’s going to get from Europe, but in reality, it has just revealed it has no grasp of what it can or cannot get from Europe. It is not in control. It’s talk of cherry picking the articles it liked and cobbling together a bespoke UK friendly trading arrangement with Europe was always idle conjecture which nobody except Westminster took seriously.
With an acute shortage of qualified negotiating personelle to cope with exit negotiations, negotiations of tariffs and quotas, and alternative Trade Deals, it doesn’t auger well for two years of productive troublefree discourse. Should the negotiations fail, or break down, or even the possibility of agreement be recognised as untenable, then Brexit could very easily become the overnight reality in much less than two years, and Scotland’s fate outside the EU may be sealed by default. It won’t be pretty, it won’t be quiet, but Theresa May will have hauled her UK out of Europe, even if it is kicking and screaming. Perhaps dragging Scotland out might be the only redeeming act of salvage she can boast from her thoroughly miserable tenure as Prime Minister.
Rock of ages -give it a rest. You still buying the Mail?
You read a rubbish article you discard it. Plenty of other good things in it. Did you no read it?
Only “trolls” like myself have been advocating voting only for the SNP at all elections until after independence.
And warning for a long time about Harvie and the Greens:
“The Greens (and RISE) would hold the SNP to ransom if they managed to hold the balance of power after the 2016 election.
Vote SNP+SNP.”
Who heavily promoted The Greens (and RISE) before the election?
The “independence supporting” The National, the younger sister of The Herald and The Sunday Herald.
a YES party then heed
nothing to stop wos from forming a political party called YES, is there?
whats in a name?
Im not sure i disagree with alex, it isnt a good idea for wos or the snp to be a coalition of sorts, the snp would be liable for what stu and other wossers said, and vice versa.
makes no sense in the current climate of the anti indy bbc and msm, its not as if they need an excuse
@Roger
Thanks for that, already used it on another blog.
@cat
Perhaps the SNP are going to float both possibilities, EU continuation, and EFTA.
@Rock
To save you typing here’s the rest of your back catalogue:
“Robert Peffers (bad)
sovereignty (no)
colony (irrigation)
English
at least one grandparent (Scottish)
lawyers (bad)
300 years (another)
UDI
National (gullible) – oh, done that one
Europe (hypocrites)
Nicola (slow)
Robert Peffers (bad)“
BBC report on the Joint Council Brexit meeting today in Cardiff – as usual, only a spoken report of Nicola’s words – we rarely get to hear her speak; and Fluffy and (t)Ruthless get the last word.
link to bbc.co.uk
Fluffy now thinks that it’s not so much a question of whether Scotland should have a differentiated position, more a question of whether Scotland would benefit from a different position.
There’s a howler of a mistake half way down where it says that the Welsh FM welcomed a firm commitment from TMay that Brexit ” would to be use as ‘cover’ for a land grab on devolved matters’
You might just want to revisit that Carwyn!
Yeah she was last funny in the early eighties but I notice Tracey Ullman is doing a sketch this Friday featuring Mhari Black and Nicola kidnapping JK Rowling and forcing her to support Scottish independence! I’m astonished our movement has been noticed to that level. We MUST be rattling them!
From today’s JMC:
“It is also increasingly clear that Brexit must result in a fundamental reconsideration of where power lies in the UK. It will not be sufficient to simply give back to Scotland the powers that are already ours, we must see a clear indication from the UK Government that there will be a major transfer of powers to the Scottish Parliament once the UK leaves the EU…
Time is now fast running out for the UK Government to show how it intends to respect Scotland’s interests. But if it becomes clear that we are headed off the cliff edge of a hard Brexit, and without the ability to avert that economically disastrous outcome, then the Prime Minister should be in no doubt that we intend to give the people of Scotland a choice over their future and on what kind of country we want to be.”
Gawn yersel, First Minister.
KraftyKris
How did the SNP win in the 2007 election and break the designed shackles of a Labour/LibDem manipulation of Holyrood. It was due to people switching from Labour, LibDem and even Tory. In recent years I know several people who have left parties of the far left to join the SNP.
Did any of these people give up on their personal political ideals…NO! They decided that one clear objective had to come first in order for THEIR dream to be argued….Independence.
What is clear is that those who work within the broad church of the SNP have managed to hold together for the best interest of Scotland. A bond from ex-SSP to ex-Tory.
You and others who argue for the split vote for Greens insult those who have come together.
Can you imagine a return to pre 2007. Who would you argue for in a vote split then?
If we created a new YES party tomorrow it would still have to run Holyrood until Independence was achieved and the policies of the YES party would not be good enough for the Greens.
Scotland will be shaped by its people AFTER Independence. The only major block to unity is now the vote splitters and their arrogance…the rest of us can fight under one banner but they are special.
especially as a sub-sovereign “region” of the UK
the present compromise by nicola is efta/eea within the uk, lie it or not, however, i dont know anyone here or in my yes group who believes that westminster would ever agree to any of Nicola’s terms, regardless of what they were. (indeed some of the eu mebers have also rejected Nicolas compromise, norway included) this is a phony war of rhetoric before indyref2 is launched
what is now being proposed is that an independent scotland would apply (and be accepted) to the efta/eea membership. this is the eu background that indyref2 will be fought against and I think it is a belter of an idea. yes will win by a landslide. it is a game changer
@schrodingers cat
I think people that read Wings may have heard about EFTA first from Scott Minto in this article from 2012. A great explanation of the differences between full EU membership and that of EFTA/EEA.
Not saying you didn’t bring it up in a post though pre 2012 🙂
link to wingsoverscotland.com
yesindyref2
@cat
Perhaps the SNP are going to float both possibilities, EU continuation, and EFTA.
nope, they are going with my suggestion, efta/eea, maybe alex and nicola distance themselves from wos, but we have enough anecdotal evidence to suggest they do read wos
next time we meet up, i’ll by you a pint if im wrong dads
Interesting assessment of party motivations for snap election. Also worth looking at the motivation of the leaders. Ruth Davidson would probably love it. Kezia Dugdale knows not only will her party get wiped out but she will likely get her P45. She needs time (and a miracle) to turn round Labour’s fortunes. Patrick Harvie is in the best place he is ever likely to be before independence when voting patterns could change. With Kez likely to cave in self interest Patrick will have to roll over to avoid risking his position of prefered SNP partner.
schrodingers cat says:
30 January, 2017 at 5:26 pm
a YES party then heed
I know. But its interesting that an old war horse like Salmond scoped ahead towards this kind of formation.
It would be fantastic but it takes years, decades to get to a level of electable maturity. We’re not UKIPers are we, cheap far right and cunning tubthumpers like a Farage or Eddie Hitler, can ofcourse make an impact, with spectacular BBC backing. But what “hole” would a new YES party be filling? Look at RISE. It takes ages to get loads of differing people singing from the same hymn sheet and in to effective battle formations, especially in Scotland.
Stay the coarse, comrade:D
yesindyref2,
“@Rock
To save you typing here’s the rest of your back catalogue:”
I had consistently called for voting SNP only and not giving the list vote to the Greens or RISE.
I was right, wasn’t I?
Rev. Stuart Campbell,
“That very much appears to be Professor Curtice saying that tactical switching to the Greens DID in fact damage the SNP (he goes on to say that it cost the Nats two seats, and with them their majority)”
It’s absolutely right the the Scottish government continues to build bridges with EU ministers. It’s also right that the SG combines with the EU in the most pragmatic way possible to achieve an end to the union with England.
First things first: an end to the union with England.
@Jack Collatin
Much like the Rev, I reckon a deal will be the most reasonable outcome on the budget front. On the outside chance that a party or parties do feel like chancing their arm by instigating a snap election?
Anyone even considering this action, the removal or chaining of the Scottish public’s right to self determination at a time of such constitutional and economic upheval deserves nothing less than utter decimation at the ballot. It would, quite rightly, be seen as the most utter betrayal of public trust and act of political sabotage in Scotland’s long history.
The Tories? I expect nothing less. Betrayal of the public is kinda what they do. To Labour, the Greens and Libdems I would urge them to think long and hard about what they do next. The next few months are about a damn sight more than a budget they know is perfectly workable. Its about more than party politics, positioning, posturing and tribalism.
The next few months could see the working rights and inalienable human rights of every Scot under imminent threat. That’s a damn site more important than who does and doesn’t get taxed this year.
Dratted auto-correct…’sight’. 🙁
Well said Clootie@5.33pm
1,400,000 Signatures on the Trump Petition at 6pm today.
Your Caring, Sharing. Listening, Desperate Tory Party couldn’t give a damn if it reaches 10 million.
Huh, Plebs trying rule their own country. What next?
Clootie, I wouldn’t advocate splitting an SNP vote in 2007 or before because they weren’t winning a majority of constituency seats. The situation is different now.
I’m not trying to insult anyone and I don’t think I’m being arrogant. I think some regions it is absolutely fine to vote SNPx2 but for other regions there are huge numbers voting SNP on the list and it’s returning zero MSPs.
Look at the regional vote/seat share in 2016 for the SNP;
Central Scotland: 129,082 (47.7%) = 0 seats, Glasgow: 111,101 (44.8%) = 0 seats, 118,546 (36.2%) = 0 seats, Mid Scotland and Fife: 120,128 (41.3%) = 0 seats, North East Scotland: 137,086 (44.7%) = 0 seats, West Scotland: 135,827 (42.2%) = 0 seats.
IMO it feels like a wasted list vote but I understand that there is always the risk that they don’t get a majority of constituency seats and then don’t get a regional seat share either.
Link to the independent reporting on T May being booed in Cardiff.
It’s a video and I know some don’t like these direct links. But it is good to see her being on the receiving end of people’s anger.
link to twitter.com
Be interesting to see if the bbc report it.
* That 118,546 (36.2%) = 0 seats was for Lothian.
Women for Independence got a good showing and interview on STV.
WOS archive links for May 2013 now over on O/T.
Folks, please note, also included are 4 links from April 2013 which failed to appear last night despite several attempts to post them.
I have been reliably informed that WordPress should not be letting comments which contain 4 or more links through. With this in mind i’ve started posting the archive links in sets of 3.
Also, doesn’t look like that big job is coming off for me so meanwhile i’ll just badger on but if i suddenly disappear at any time i’ll be back at the first opperchancity.
Enjoy!
Bloody hell
link to twitter.com
Tasmina raises point of order
link to twitter.com
Breeks says:
Exactly as I see it.
I don’t know if people are getting the compromise put to WM mixed up with how Indy would be fought. EFTA in compromise, full EU membership with Indy.
There will be no move away from EU as part of Indy.
The Rev agrees and was offering a £50 bet on twitter to anyone who thought EFTA was genuine.
The EFTA/EEA with Indy is starting to smell a bit like DevoMax …. a dead cat thrown into the middle to the table to derail plans.
Thanks Fiona MacInnes, as a fisherman for 20+ years coming from a fishing family I know a lot of t more than most on here, Yes Scotland had its faults in the 70s and 80s with black fish but times have changed and folk mention Iceland, A country that’s had controls over its own waters same as Faroe and Norway and all three nations biomass results are top and they don’t copy CFP policy yet EU policy has failed the industry with quotas and discard bans, which have been proven to have failed
“KraftyKris”
😀 Love it! 😀
Theresa May tells Ireland there will be no problem over the border issue, trade and movement.
Well that knocks the Scotland concerns out the ball park. Can’t tell one country one thing and then threaten another with a different set of proposals. Would not look too good.
Honestly …I would buy the Daily Record before I would buy The Herald …and that is saying something!
Recently (say the last year or so), the Herald has literally taken over from the Scotsman for its BritNat stance. As to the notion that Sunday Herald is the one-day-in-the-week that the owners give over to print a more nationalist agenda is just nonsense. The Sunday Herald is simply the wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Right now, we just vote SNP on everything. Aye, I like the Greens, but we all know there is a greater urgency here as well as the greater goal. Nothing should stand in its way.
If Scotland should become independent, then I would give the Greens a serious look …but right now …SNP on everything!
Wonder why Bercow is not very nice to SNP MPs?
Wonder why Bercow leaves SNP MPs last to speak when most have left and definitely no TV cameras?
Wonder why Bercow curtails SNP MPs replies and chides them as if they were children?
Wonder why…………?
@breeks
Triggering of Article 50 is the key.
Call Indyref2 and May calls GE what happens?
“Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill, every time”.
KraftyKris
…and I think you miss my point. We unite, we compromise to remain united.
Do the Greens really need to make their swaggering stance on tax before Independence?
It does not help the Independence movement to bicker over “a principle” at this time. I may back the policy 100 percent but it is still division.
It is not about arithmetic, it is about sending a clear message to Westminster.
The SNP could fracture into 5 parties right now and WIN more seats by non contest agreements at election time.
I think people have to get back to what we are fighting for.
The Greens are sending out a clear message every day….”This is how an Independent Scotland should be”. The rest of us are fighting for that Independence in order to have the power to say how it should be.
Let’s agree to disagree on principle versus politics.
I think the stars are aligning for Scotland, when you look at the overall picture.
Negotiations with the EU will not go well for many reasons as we all know.
On top of that Mrs May is aligning herself to a Narcissistic nightmare whose behaviour will become more extreme as he is challenged. The UK public will be looking on and believe me, you have seen nothing yet.Mr Trump will be capable of much worse.
The Scottish public will feel the effects of both simultaneously, and that may concentrate minds.
Will we want to remain friends with a very disturbed man who leads the most powerful nation on earth