Five cold, hard facts about the election
This site has never told readers how to vote in Scottish elections and never will, partly because its editor has no vote there and doesn’t have to live with the consequences whoever wins. (Something that ISN’T true about independence, in which case Wings would relocate to Scotland, which is why we freely express a firm view on that.)
It’s in that context that we make the following observations about next month’s vote.
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1. RISE AREN’T GOING TO WIN ANY SEATS.
They’re just not. They could multiply their current support by 10 in the next two weeks and still be nowhere near. In terms of winning representation at Holyrood for the next five years, a vote for RISE is – categorically and indisputably – a wasted vote.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote for them if you agree with their policies (even if they’re somewhat confused or flat-out contradictory, like a £100,000 salary cap and a 60% tax rate for people earning over £150,000). Every political party has to build from nothing, and in a broader sense there’s no such thing as a wasted vote.
But in THIS election, right here right now, voting for RISE is saying “I’m going to leave who Scotland’s list MSPs are to fate, because my vote will count for nothing”.
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2. A “PRO-INDEPENDENCE OPPOSITION” IS IMPOSSIBLE.
The only thing even remotely akin to a meaningful runner-up prize in an election is to be the largest opposition party, which gets you privileged treatment in parliament and the media. But the second-biggest pro-independence party is hoping, at best, to come fourth in this election, which gets you nothing.
Even fourth is a pretty big ask. But to lead the opposition the Greens would have to go from 87,000 votes to more like 500,000. If every single Tory, Lib Dem, socialist and UKIP list vote from 2011 had gone to the Greens instead, they’d still have been short of Labour’s total. Whatever else happens in May, “the opposition” will still be Unionist.
(And of course, in terms of independence then by definition it will ALWAYS be so.)
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3. A “PRO-INDEPENDENCE OPPOSITION” IS MEANINGLESS ANYWAY.
There are only two possible outcomes of a Holyrood election – either the governing party gets a majority or it doesn’t. If it does, then the composition of the opposition is irrelevant, because the government can pass whatever it wants.
And if it doesn’t get a majority, it only needs however many of the opposition’s votes are required to reach one. If a minority governing party is only (say) three short of the 65 seats needed at Holyrood, then it doesn’t matter if 63 of the 66 opposition MSPs are against it. It only needs the other three to pass its bills.
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4. THE SNP AREN’T GOING TO WIN EVERY CONSTITUENCY SEAT.
Whatever polls say, realistically it simply isn’t going to happen. In Orkney the SNP trailed the Lib Dems in 2011 by 11%, while in Shetland the Nats were a massive 35 points behind. The islands resisted the SNP tsunami in the Westminster election last year and one or both is very likely to do so again this year.
The Borders will be tough ground too. In the 2011 Holyrood landslide not one of the three seats adjacent to England went to the Nats, and they trailed by up to 19 points.
Even allowing for Labour’s collapse, there are numerous places where the SNP is defending very small majorities and could be vulnerable to Unionist tactical voting. In 10 of their seats the majority is under 1000, the lowest being Glasgow Anniesland where Bill Kidd won in 2011 by a mere seven votes.
In Glasgow Kelvin, meanwhile, the SNP finished just 882 votes ahead five years ago, and this time Patrick Harvie of the Greens is standing for the constituency seat as well as on the list, creating a serious possibility of splitting the Yes vote and letting Labour sneak back in.
In short, then, there are at a minimum 15 constituencies where the Nats will face, at the very least, a serious fight. If they were to lose just over half of them they’d fall short of a majority and would need list seats to get across the line.
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5. THE GREENS’ COMMITMENT TO A SECOND INDYREF IS LUKEWARM.
The Scottish Greens manifesto is clear that the party would campaign for a Yes vote in the event of a second referendum. It’s a lot more vague on actually bringing that second referendum about. The current stated policy is that a second vote would require a “citizens’ initiative”, taking the form of a petition comprising one million signatures, unless there was a counter-petition AGAINST a referendum with more.
In other words, to back a second referendum the Greens want to have a mass public voting contest first – in effect a referendum about a referendum.
The party’s position, put more candidly, is that it will campaign for independence should a second referendum somehow happen, but they don’t really want it to happen, even in the event of a Brexit vote in the UK.
The obstacles the Greens have put in place of supporting another indyref in the next parliament are to all practical purposes insurmountable. Should their votes be crucial to passing a referendum bill, it’s very far from certain it would be delivered.
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At the risk of repeating ourselves, none of the above is necessarily an argument for voting for or against any particular party next month. The constitution is not the be-all and end-all of politics, and for many people other issues may be more important than parties’ stances on independence or referendums.
But this is a pro-independence site, not a party political one, so we view and analyse things from that perspective and present facts relevant to that aim. Readers may do with those facts and that analysis what they wish.
I couldn’t have put it better myself!!
I’m off to find out about the SNP manifesto….
I reckon the MSM and all opposition parties will say it is varying degrees of SNPBad
If you want independence vote SNP. If you want to fanny around vote Rise or Green. The choice is clear!
The absolute minimum requirement for getting a second referendum is for the SNP to have a majority, and an increased one at that. Folk are willing to risk that for what, two or three fewer unionist MSPs at most?
Forget the fantasy scenarios based on what is “mathematically possible” and look at the realities. The vast majority of SNP supporters will vote SNP with both votes, so the idea that it’s possible to get 15-20% of them to vote for even one other pro-indy party is just unrealistic. If it was going to happen, the polls would be reflecting it by now.
The irritating thing is that so many voting for the smaller parties will end up with no real voice. The SNP is their only route to being heard effectively. The Unionist parties will ignore them.
They blank out the reality that is the Westminster establishment who will be facing them.
I get the same irritation when talking to people who claim Scotland is a country but they don’t want it to be self-governing, which is what a country does and makes it a country.
The Greens’ stance is puzzling, to be honest.
What’s wrong with the ‘party X puts independence referendum pledge in its manifesto and then wins a majority’ approach’ now?
Is this just the Greens’ way of saying they’d push for one because they know they cannot win a majority? I’m not being snippy or sneery in asking that. In fact, I’d be more inclined to believe they were not going lukewarm on the prospect of another referendum if they were to explain this was because it was the only way they could achieve one.
Was the distinction between Rise’s policy on capping salaries at £100,000 and having a 60% top rate of tax not that the £100,000 cap should only be applied to those in public office; i.e. no one in Glasgow City council could earn more than £100,000, whilst those in private sector still could.
Clear, coherent, concise confirmation.
I agree 100%.
Ask how you will feel when the stupid grin of DimbleTory appears on the election night, “no SNP majority, so Scotland does not want independence”.
When your inkling for Green/Rise made you slip, but you never checked the policies.
They are for later, after independence. Its hard enough for the SNP to get anything done with our crap powers.
There can only be one winner. SNP – if Independence is your priority.
The faced Kama Kazi parties will behead themselves soon enough, when thy have finished cutting Tommy Sheridan to pieces.
@Brian
“The irritating thing is that so many voting for the smaller parties will end up with no real voice”
Well hopefully they will have put SNP as constituency choice so they will have a voice.
Unless of course they went full-Loki to make a
publicity seeking principled statement (that statement being “look at me look at me look at me look at me”)was reading something on Friday about London First, a lobby putting, eh, London First. It was in the context of all the stuff London gets. If the North East (of England) had a unified North East first type group, maybe they wouldn’t have such high levels of deprivation – cheers Labour. That’s not nationalism, that’s thinking about the communities you are representing. If the community is a nation, then it is labelled by some as nationalism, but it’s pretty natural to want to serve and benefit your community. I’m fairly sure voting SNP is seen by many to be the best way of protecting Scotland from the likes of London First, and the Colonialist South East centric Westminster government, whether or not you are for independence.
Re Highland.
In 2011 had the SNP won all the constituencies the seats would have been exactly the same:
SNP + 2 const. – 2 list.
LibD – 2 const. + 2 list.
The SNP needed less than 1,000 more list votes to take another list seat which would have been from the tories.
Yep, just a few more list votes to remove a tory. That’s why the list vote is so important.
Winning the constituency is good headlines but it is the list that decides the overall seats.
Just a very minor point, and I hope I’ve picked it up correctly, but I’m sure RISE say they’d cap public service employees to £100000, not everybody.
Clear and to the point.
Most importantly though, just get out there and vote. There’s no such thing as a done deal in this election or any other.
The Greens can’t be trusted on independence.
SNP x 2
Strange low key reporting of the next Scottish Government’s Party manifesto by BBC Radio Scotland at lunch time.
Will be interesting to see how Labour’s unachievable manifesto is promoted by the BBC next week.
I’ll repeat what Mr.Harvie said, paraphrased, when asked how he viewed Scotland, in the union, as part of a panel of speakers in W. Glasgow, before the ref.
If he could achieve his wishes WITHIN the union, he would not be fussed about independence, and have you looked at their pie in the sky manifesto. I’LL create 200,000 jobs. I will, I just will, because I said so. APD,hold onto your hats. Council tax. Jeez.
Bill Butler, Labour, said he was an Internationalist, so Jockland didn’t matter.
As I said on another thread –
SNP 2.
Anything else is just playing with yourself.
In my opinion, the polls have been showing an intention to use tactical voting on the list for months now. The SNP list polling is regularly up to 20% lower than the constituency polling despite “normality” being a 1-2% variation. That, to me, implies considerable tactical voting on the list among indie supporters.
Despite this, RISE, Solidarity and the Greens combined are “predicted” to get very, very few seats. Much less than the list seats the SNP “could” get if its list vote was comparable to its constituency vote. Any further erosion of the SNP list vote could potentially be disastrous for the indie movement if, as is likely, it results in more Unionist list MSPs with the Greens getting only 1 or 2 more and RISE getting nothing at all (again, as is likely) while the SNP do not get all the constituencies they are “predicted” to get.
Both votes SNP.
Something RISE, Greens and Solidarity need to think about is that even in this day and age, support for a party comes through councils and councillors.
The long-term plan for them should be to target the 2017 council elections where, with STV, SNP supporters could still put SNP first and second, but then Greens or RISE 3rd and 4th. It would be good to have non-unionist controlled councils for the cause of Indy, and as far as I can see, there’s not only no need for “tactical voting” with STV, there’s no harm either.
Now THAT relies on goodwill from SNP supporters otherwise we’ll just vote SNP first and second for the council elections and stick two fingers up to Greens and RISE and leave the other boxes blank. I did that last time because I didn’t want to take any chance of diluting the SNP vote.
Greens and RISE might want to think about that.
Great piece, Rev. Cuts through all the verbiage of recent weeks.
No one wants to deny people their democratic right to form parties, or spout forth.
However, if your goal for this country is independence, then SNP x 2.
I was tepid to the Greens up until now. Now I’m left cold at their pretence at wanting Independence.
Reminds me of the signs that a very wealthy Tory Landlord has been giving to the toffee nosed farmers (as opposed to the hard working down to earth generally SNP supporting farmers), saying Unionists must unite.
That may be coming in Scotland, the LabSevrativeDems have already been deciding on some seats who will be taking what, they want nothing more than to divide the Independence support, and the Brits have always been masters of divide and conquer, its what they are good at.
Basically it’s what I’ve been saying for weeks.
Second vote Rise is basically taking your polling card, putting it in a bin with some petrol and chucking in a match. They’re simply not going to win seats. And I cheerfully support quite a lot of what they’re saying, but it’s a solid fact that they’re not going to win seats. The same statement pretty much suits Solidarity as well.
The Greens have basically lost any chance they had of getting my second vote, as they have in the past. The ambiguous statements on independence and the same ‘two votes SNP lets the unionists in’ crap basically solidified my intent to make both votes SNP.
The SNP majority is key and it is the only game in town. And as all constituencies are, as stated, unlikely to all be that nice shade of yellow we need to make bloody sure the list vote is massive to secure that majority.
Because, and I suspect I’m not alone in this, if we miss a majority and an analysis of voting patterns shows second votes for the Greens, Rise or Solidarity made a difference to who won seats I WILL blame them. Because the doubts are being caused by their blatant politicking over unionists getting seats when the flat reality is they’re in no position to stop the unionists winning seats ANYWAY.
Glesca – Correct I have suspected this all along. Independence is a vehicle for change for the Greens. It’s not a key principal. In other words it’s not in their hearts and minds.
It’s a bit like someone taking a job to develop their career , rather than wanting the job or to work for the firm. Very important difference.
Clearest article around on the subject.
Glesca Keelie says:
“I’ll repeat what Mr.Harvie said, paraphrased …. if he could achieve his wishes WITHIN the union, he would not be fussed about independence”
Jim Sillars has given similar responses in the past.
This kind of thinking comes from the idea that internationalism means no nations. Wrong. You need well found, stable, peaceful individual nations, then you can have an inter-national dimension.
My own feeling is that the UK is completely incapbable of being transformed into a modern democracy. The only solution for Scotland, is to be self determining Scotland.
Sorry early O/t warning – With all due respect to Angus Robertson who most of the time manages to score a point against Cameron & the Tories used both his Questions to ask Cameron to condem the recent killing by suspected Muslim extremists in Glasgow , what the f/k kind of answer did he expect ? , I mean you get Two chances to score and you sky both , This during an Election Campaign get a bloody Grip a wasted chance .
My point is all normal people would of course condem rightly this killing and all sentiments and condolences quite rightly have been expressed weeks ago .
Was this the only Topic the only subject he could think of to Question a Tory PM .
Quite sure the Labour constituency vote in Inverclyde will be lower again than in previous Holyrood elections and that the people of Inverclyde will be out in force to vote for Stuart McMillan of the SNP.
Labour are defending a 511 (five hundred and eleven) majority.
Duncan McNeill stood down and is not standing again. The office that was used for both the former Labour MP and MSP has a To Let sign outside.
Also hearing that the staff have been made redundant said there’s no chance they will get a Labour constituency MSP elected.
Very few of them on the streets, no leaflets yet and no interest in them at all apart from the usual suspects on social media who seem to still be fighting the Referendum!
Tick Tock.
Another great post Rev.
@work so speed read, apologies if duplication.
I worry a bit with the Polls, as they say only the votes on the day count.
Would the “worst” or “best” situation be SNP edged out by SLab/Con/Lib Coallition.
Yikes what a thought.
It really has to be 2 X SNP
Anything else leaves Scotland sliding down a very slippery slope.
I must say, like many on here , after 50 years supporting SNP the current situation with such huge support is very very very …cant find the right word ….ach brilliant!
I know a couple of Green party members who will definitely be voting SNP x2 this time.
Why?
Because they actually thought hard about it and assessed the risks. They haven’t been too impressed with the green candidates either.
Broadly sensible analysis, although that is not to say I wholly agree.
I will be voting SNP for the constituency, as I see independence as a priority.
I recognise that Greens are not yet as substantial in numbers as I’d wish and realize that outcomes will reflect that.
However I believe there are important reasons for voting a particular way, in the list vote, other than a desire/hope/expectation of seeing that party win further list seats (though that would be nice!)
One: to signal to the SNP how important Green issues are to me. (Under other circumstances (i.e. a less dire Westminster Government), I might have given my constituency vote too to a Green candidate, if one were to be standing locally.)
My support for the SNP is in large part conditional on the degree to which it promotes Green policies.
Two: to encourage and bolster the Scottish Green Party candidates and Green activists. Keep on in there! I’m with you!
Three: to help make Greens more evident on the political scene, through the record of votes cast if not through seats won. We are here! We are not s fringe interest! We are not going to go away!
Before the Westminster election last year there was lots of talk about unionist tactical voting,propagated substantially by the media,in an effort to get unionists to unite and vote tactically to keep the SNP out.It failed.So now they’re trying to promote tactical voting in the hope it will split the Indy vote.
SNP x 2……SNP x 2
For the Greens, Inedpendence is a passing bus to get to where they want to go, which doesn’t mean the Terminus.
They will hop off the bus anywhere they think the view looks good.
Whether your politics are socialist or green you will not get them while we are ruled by Westminster! Independence opens the door to various progressive politics. The only way is Independence and the only party that can get us there is the SNP!
SNP x 2
HaggisHunter
12.43
Unionists Must Unite Against Those Bally Scotch Savages ,What!
@ Glesca Keelie @ 12.18
Another Green candidate said exactly that (“I wouldn’t be bothered about the union if Westminster had Green policies”) in my hearing last year – this person is far enough down the list to have virtually no chance of being elected, but ought to have realized that Westminster governments can change, and are more difficult to get rid of. My disillusionment with the Greens increased by an order of magnitude when I heard that remark.
A great many Greens (far more than perceived from the YES campaign) are not supporters of Independence and for many more their support comes a long way behind their commitment to environmental/climate change. This is their choice which is without dispute.
What is dishonest is the way the party hides that division. The Independence supporting Greens are active and visible. However the evidence is in the voting on resolutions and policy. The words are pleasant but vague. The imply support for Independence but don’t deliver.
Many,many greens made a major contribution to the YES campaign but I would argue that the Green Party in general is far less engaged by nationhood.
The Green YES legacy was a great recruitment tool for those YES supporters who did not wish to join the SNP.
I share much of what would be argued as Green values but I prefer the company of those in a party FULLY involved in delivering Independence.
If you seek a core policy on green values then vote SNP X 2 and you will get far more delivered in the long term by an Independent nation than by a minor pressure group in a unionist region.
Unity is strength. Do not underestimate the unionist drive for division
@HaggisHunter
What you say about farmers is true from me driving all around rural Scotland. There’s a lot of SNP signs in farm fields which also had / have YES signs. The NO Thanks during the Ref, fairly few, were mostly in bits of woodland or unused fields at the edge of estates. I did see a Vote Conservative one at the edge of woodland last week, must be the second cuckoo of spring.
Number 5 isn’t a fact, Stuart, it’s not even close. It’s a deliberate twisting and spinning of a statement to suit your clearly party political agenda – you know, the one you begin by stating you don’t have.
You’ve achieved much with this site, and deserve credit for it, not least educating a swathe of the Scottish electorate to be more aware of the dark arts of propaganda posturing as balanced journalism. Rather like this disingenuous piece.
SNP x 2? Four legs good, two legs better.
Robert Graham – I may be wrong but I would think that on this occasion the PM is not Robertson’s target. I’d surmise that he has wider audience in mind.
@Clootie
I don’t think that’s fair as far as the supporters are concerned. Most Green posters I’ve seen support Indy, and strongly at that. I think it’s just the few noisy ones going for the SNP vote, putting party before Indy.
The Greens might be bought of by a future Labour government or the present shower at Westminster if there’s a regime change after the EU vote regardless of the outcome. Fortunately there commitment based on a petition might allow a sufficiently minded independence movement to use one of the organisations (such as change.org ) to provide just that impetus. Would be nice if they told us the target.
@Dr Ew
I don’t agree with you. Both Greens and SNP are saying it’s the people of Scotland will decide when Indy Ref 2 happens, and I think tha’s correct. The SNP are saying like “constant majority” for Indy, but the Greens want a million signature pettion.
Well, it took 2 years for YES, in the midst of a high activity referendum campaign, for YES to achieve 1 million signatures. In peace time as it were, it ain’t going to happen.
Every political view is captured under the SNP umbrella.
It was and remains the party of Independence.
Minor parties seek a short boost in their vote by seeking division in a United group (SNP)
one party until Independence, many parties after Independence.
This short term selfish approach will cost these parties long term. Why would I join a party after Indepence who had been willing to risk our future during the fight for nationhood.
From Braemar down to Dundee last Holyrood election, only SNP posters could be seen
SNP x 2
@Dr Ew
not speaking on behalf of Rev Stu but if that were directed at me, which it could be because I’ll be voting SNP X 2, I’d also be arguing “I’m not SNP”. That may seem contradictory but for me, SNP is the best route to a) independence, or b) some kind of protection from Westminster. If their policies such as on education, law and order, environment etc were a long way away from ideological bible, I’d need to take a serious bit of time to work out what the long term best strategy was, and perhaps still vote for them. The fact for me is that of the 4 main parties, SNP are much closer to my bible than the three unionists. That means they tick both boxes: best chance of indy AND better than those other three. I’d vote Green number 2, but the corporate media are pushing indy supporters so much in that direction I’ve become pretty suspicious.
This is not an ideal situation to be in for good parliamentary democracy, but the way I see it, we’ve currently got a situation of three parties trying to out-do each other on who is more unionist. Greens, Rise etc can have great policies all they like, but if one of the three ugly sisters get in, we’ll be sending money back to westminster like Labour used to, and rolling over for our tummy to be tickled on occasion.
SNP manifesto mentions independence seven times.
(Which is probably less often than a typical Tory leaflet 🙄 perhaps!)
Any ways, I am heartened by the plan to convert NOs and have IndyRef2 when either a clear majority want it. We can’t afford to lose next time, can we?
@yesindyref2
I tried to make my point on the quality of the Independence supporting greens, I worked with them. However time and again the party official policies are weak on independence. Please do not confuse my comments on the party with my views on green independence supporters.
Perhaps the new intake of members will change the muted support but at present I’m still of the view that a very large proportion of the Green Party membership are at best neutral.
@
Bill McLean
just read your comment. A bit more succinct than mine. That’s what I was thinking 🙂
A great summary of the situation Stu without partisan party shouting which is left to the rest of us
Now we’ll get all the, Aye but Naw but Squad inventing the usual excuses as to why their plan will work when clearly everybody with a bit of political Nous is telling them the facts that their wee plan won’t
I blab as much as the next person about who I like and who I don’t but one thing is absolutely crystal, transparent, see through obvious, a vote for one of these new parties is not in any way an advancement for Independence it’s a drawback and I include the Greens in that, they can’t get elected down south, WHY? because they’re not seen as a political party and I’m afraid never will be, here either
It’s not easy being Green, but it kinda is, and anybody can do it in any other party so what’s the point of a separate entity
and maybe if I look at it that way so do others, that’s not to say being Green’s rubbish or anything, the whole idea of it is great, but voting for it’s another thing especially when they’re economic argument is mince and Bernard Ponsonby showed it up on the Telly when he asked Mr Harvie about the tax increases causing Capital Flight
“I don’t believe it” was the reply, well the Victor Meldrew defence isn’t a good enough answer
That’s me shouted my bit and I’m not going to shout about the rest because they’re not worth the Internet connection
SNP As many times as you’re allowed to do it until Freedom Day AND MAY THE FORCE BE WITH US
the argument about voting snp1&2 based on only the south and highland regions is flawed. i have been consistently telling people that if they live in these regions to vote snp1&2
what do people do if they live in fife&mid?
i dont believe the greens or rise can form an opposition
i just want wullie rennie gone
in fife&mid
snp1&greens2
If you want to stop Ruth Davidson, the Westminster Yoons and the Yoon media from destroying Scotland and our lives, it is essential that the SNP gets a majority.
If you want to have any chance of having another vote on Scotland’s Independence, it is essential that the SNP gets a majority.
Realistically the best chance of the SNP getting that majority is by using both your votes for the SNP. Anything else only increases the chance of failure.
Let’s make sure we don’t have to relive the 19th of September on the 5th of May.
SNP x 2.
No, no! Rev, what’s this about relocating?
Independence for Scotland would have brought about a brilliant double whammy for me. One, Scotland gets to make it own decisions for its own residents (obviously) and two, we get to keep the Rev and he becomes Wings over England! He then proceeds to get right up the noses of the English press and Westminster establishment and enlighten the load of mushrooms (voters!) who still believe the Elite have a right to rule us.
Please Rev don’t leave us, when that great day comes,to the will of endless Tory governments. We need you down here.
Pretty please?
Iain Macwhirter ?@iainmacwhirter 2h2 hours ago
Right. Wonder how much Kezia Dugdale will borrow from #snpmanifesto for Labour’s effort?
Usual BBC UK wide SNP black out but its nice to watch yoon hacks tweeting. Its still bizarre though listening to likes of BBC r4 lunchtime news black out SNP manifesto launch. Presumably the red tories are watching closely in London just to see what is and isn’t getting electorate backing in their Scotland region.
Instead, r4 news had huge interview with Prince Wills which was really fascinating. He’s a nice bloke who loves his family, his country, his dad and he doesn’t want to think about his granny heading up to heaven and sitting next to God, and all the other past UK royals.
Makes you proud to be a Brit.
So it’s vote Tartan Tory if you follow Stuart’s advice.
Wait! Maybe I’ve missed a very clever move from the Rev.
Maybe he’s going to relocate to Scotland and then run Wings over England from there! Then he will wind up the establishment brigade by being in Scotland like he winds up the anti Indy folk by being in England.
Brilliant!
Watched the Govanhill hustings this week and the Green Party’s Zara Kitson, although saying first that she would support independence in another ref then proceeded to talk all around the issue. She definitely sounded as though she wouldn’t be that uncomfortable if there wasn’t one. I am unconvinced about the Scottish Greens support for indy.
Good, clear thinking, Rev. Exactly what I have been thinking myself. But I couldn’t put it so well…
I value ‘green’ issues and this is how I see this whole situation. Westminster isn’t the least bit interested in green issues. And certainly isn’t going to do anything more about the environment than it can get away with! The SNP are and would do more given more power. So given I care about the environment, which party am I going to vote for? Will I vote for a young party that can make no difference except let a WM party in (who, remember, DOESN’T CARE about the environment) – or vote to give the SNP a majority? Well… that was an easy choice!
I will do all my fighting for a good, clean environment, once the SNP are in power. I know that they are most likely to consider all that needs doing to save our planet.
#BothVotesSNP
Rancid The Graun’s Rupert Carrell very sniffy
From
Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell 4h4 hours ago
Media at @theSNP #Holyrood16 manifesto launch must wear “I’m with @NicolaSturgeon” wristbands to gain entry #MSMtrap
to
link to archive.is
Socialist worker NOT red tory Tristram says
“The time for equivocation is over. We must go further and faster than the Tories on devolution, and embrace a new radical localism that puts power back in the hands of our communities and restores a sense of civic pride.”
all of it in just one of the dozens of UKOK rags that did stuff like this to devo in Scotland
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Only in the yew kay:D
A critical question to be asked of all Green supporters and elected members is
“If the UK Government was Green Government would you support independence for Scotland?”
John Connelly says 2:00
I don’t know, Ruthys nice on a tank, but I am not sure what party she represents? Is ahe a tartan Tory, a Tory that’s tartan or just multicoloured yarn?
As for UKIP apparently their racist aggressive pigs,? who knew?
Liberal see liar,
Labour have left the building,
Green, no win win with those guys , its all lentil jackets an mass unemployment.
That means only two contenders
SNP List vote. And stopping a one party state I will vote SNP as my Constituency vote.
The SNP in Scotland are the ‘rainbow’ party. They are the only party with policies that appeal to all parts of our electorate. They captured the ground that Labour abandoned whilst retaining a swathe of bushes that are more right of centre…in essence they stand in the middle catering to many voices and it’s a fine ‘balancing’ act they are performing which explains why they remain so popular.
I think it’s because they understand their own polity, we don’t ‘do’ extremism in Scotland, how many times have we been told we’re conservative with a small ‘c’, I would amend that by saying we’re ‘nae daft’.
This SNP’s centre ground has forced Labour and Tories into those extreme positions and they garner support from those fringes that by and large have little sway in Scotland.
This is why they are being marginalised further by the electorate. We can see how ‘low’ they are sinking and we can see the rise in the more ‘extreme’ elements of their support and the laughable remarks they themselves are expressing in an attempt to increase their votes. Murdo Fraser’s tweet after the match is one example of this. Labour and Tories are virtually inseparable when it comes to policy making and they are the twa cheeks of the same arse that represent the corrupt and toxic politics that we are rejecting wholesale in Scotland.
I would say that RISE and the Greens represent the more ‘serious’ and dare I say it intellectually viable options as replacement party’s in Scotland, but like others I feel: ‘not right now’.
The IndyRef changed everything in Scotland. Not only do the SNP embody a more democratic socially inclusive form of governance, they utterly altered the atmosphere we breathe, politically speaking.
That one policy in their manifesto in 2011 whereby a referendum was to be held transformed Scotland. It reignited hundreds of thousands of people hitherto disengaged, disheartened and disillusioned by the decades of tribal infighting. The tired worn politics of devolution and it’s meagre and begrudged sips of succour to Scotland’s endemic problems caused in large part by the asymmetric ‘union’ that we are cursed by. All of this could be altered by voting Yes.
The referendum campaign infused the talk we had wi ourselves wi hope, the hope that we could work together to achieve what we termed a more ‘fair and just’ society. The hope that we could create an economic model that insured no one could use it to line their pockets at the expense of the wider community. The hope that we could shut every fuckin’ food bank in Scotland and reset our social security system to it’s previous stated aim: to ensure that no one is abandoned because of the vicissitudes of life. The hope that we could remove Trident from our country, and spend the appalling amount of money saved by doing so on achieving some of the many policies that would lead to those hopes becoming reality.
This we said and more, could all be achieved with our Independence. By hook and by crook No won that vote.
From that moment forward we have witnessed the implosion of our former political dynamic in Scotland, we have removed a layer at the MP level, we have remained full of hope in the face of the lie of the Vow and it’s inevitable bastardisation at the hands of those in the HoC and HoL. We knew it would happen, every single amendment from the SNP, now the third biggest party in the UK, vetoed by the Blue Red and Amber Tories. They mean for Scotland to remain tethered to their rotten system in perpetuity. Make no mistake about that…and everything that means:
Austerity, the systematic destruction of the NHS, the renewal of Trident, the syphoning off of our oil whilst being told it’s worth shit. The wars that we will be dragged into, the possibility that we will be removed from the EU irrespective of whether we as a country vote to remain in the EU. Et al.
The only means by which we can retain the hope that was engendered by the referendum and keep our aim of Independence alive as a probability is to vote for the SNP in such numbers as to ensure a majority SNP government in May.
We cannot afford to lose Hope, by in fighting as a movement at this juncture. This is a continuation of our path toward Independence. Everyone knows the score: Hole the SNP you hole the Independence movement. End.
Vote SNP Twice or abandon Hope.
@Clootie
Fair enough, I agree. Green party policies are fine, obviously they have to have some! But not if they get in the way of getting Indy, that dilutes their party as being a party of Independence. They need to look at their priorities, and the fact their policies are often unachievable without Indy. Indy first, policies second.
@ tarisgal, 2:05pm
Exactly.
John Connelly at 2pm
I don’t think you’ve picked Stu up right, John. He’s not suggesting you should vote Labour
John Connelly says:
20 April, 2016 at 2:00 pm
So it’s vote Tartan Tory if you follow Stuart’s advice.
Hey John why does the tory voter of the Scotland region NOT actually vote tartan tory now, seeing as SNP are the tartan tories now?
I want to manage my own, lovely green garden; plant my own greens in that green garden and reap the rewards when they mature and grow. But there’s this guy next door who doesn’t give a fuck about the nice green garden I want. He’s built a swimming pool and a jaccuzi in his with some fake palm trees. If I could control my own green garden, I’d have real palm trees. A real roses, not the plastic ones my neighbour doesn’t tend to.
How do I get to manage my own green garden in a way that is ecologically and environmentally friendly? Do I continue to allow my neighbour to run and wreck it? Or do I take charge of the garden myself?
What must come first before the garden will be looked after properly?
You Greens getting any of this?
For a sense of perspective, let’s look at the ‘also rans’ in the 2011 Regional List voting. (Those who failed to be allocated a seat.)
A Rise breakthrough? Nae chance.
OK,the polical scene was changed by IndyRef1, however, given all the EU he-ha in the media, it wouldn’t surprise me if UKIP out perform Rise.
Scottish Senior Citizens 33,253
UKIP 18,138
Socialist Labour 16,847
Scottish Christian 16,466
BNP 15,580
Scottish Socialist 8,272
Respect 6,972
Scottish Unionist 3,002
Ban Bankers Bonuses 2,968
Solidarity 2,837
@ K1
Sorry, missed your post at 2:13 probably cost I was busy typing my own short one, otherwise I would have included you as well as @tarisgal.
As I said, exactly. If SNP loses the majority, “holed” in your words, we will have an almighty struggle making any improvements in our lot, never mind having the possibility of independence. That interest in what we are about mustn’t be allowed to wither which might happen if we return to a position of policital impotence and have to bow to every whim of Westminster.
I won’t grudge anyone voting their conscience or party of preference. You have ethics, ideals and principles you live by and they are hopefully mirrored by your political party of choice (when not hijacked and twisted as in the case of Labour).
How and ever we must never be blinded to the current reality of those choices. Right now I don’t believe Scotland can afford to form a ‘rainbow’ parliament. All of the progressive and pro yes parties out there have passion and ideas, but can they honestly look at themselves and say they can legislate for all? That they are ready to legislate, or that they have the machinery and the resources to carry the fight to the true enemy of democracy in Scotland? That they have put in the years of work and shoe leather to be able to say I can appeal to and represent the wishes of the widest body of the electorate?
I want an independent, consensus driven, rainbow parliament so badly I can taste it, but now is not that time IMO. Indeed it may not be that time for a minimum of a parliamentary term and perhaps even that ‘generation’ so beloved of yoon politicos and their poison pen meeja. So I’ll be voting solidly for a strong, stable, experienced pro indy Scottish government and yes that will be SNPx2 for me.
That’s based on their overall track record of the past eight years. Their commitment to certain areas of policy I personally hold dear and the fact that I can accept where I digress from party policy, its not all about what I want. Society being much bigger than me kinda thing. 🙂
By all means campaign FOR your party and for what you believe. Grow your vote, widen your appeal, gain experience, develop credible policy, but don’t camapign AGAINST your friends.
Re No.5 – I agree with you Stu about Green support for independence being luke warm. But even if it isn’t and right here, right now it’s strong. That doesn’t mean it will be so in the future.
Independence is the raison d’etre of the SNP – the minute they stop supporting that is the minute they cease to exist.
But independence is NOT the raison d’etre for the Green Party who are primarily about environmental issues. There is nothing to stop them switching away from independence any time they want.
So if environmental issues and sustainability trump everything else for you then vote Green by all means.
But if independence is your number 1 goal there is only one logical place to put your vote for both constituency and list.
My concern about the Green candidate in my area is the lack of meaningful information. The Green website and their literature through the door does not give a qualitative appraisal of their candidate. I need more than waffle and soundbites.
Sorry if someone has already posted it. It helped me calm down over the current issue!
link to m.youtube.com
galamcennalath says: 2:36
that alternative list?, is it the Judea’s peoples front or the people’s front of Judea?
Most people vote for the main parties, take away the friends and family, and the rest is just splitters.
The only one I would have voted for was our Tommy, but he keeps fucking himself up!
Proud Cybernat says:
20 April, 2016 at 2:34 pm
How do I get to manage my own green garden in a way that is ecologically and environmentally friendly?
Piss in his pool.
Reading some of the comments in here today, you’d never guess that the manifesto was launched. I know we are on the march but are we attacking or retreating, I forget?
The SNP are good at politics, no doubt about it.
I’ll be providing a comprehensive analysis & deconstruction of the manifesto after the election results are in — I don’t want to be accused of negatively campaigning against the SNP between now and then. And I’ll be supporting the SNP with two votes, not that anyone cares. They’re the only show in town from a rational choice model perspective.
For the record, I’m predicting the Greens will collapse. I actually think the Greens will soon disappear from politics completely. It’s cruel irony for sure, but there’s something about a Green Party going extinct that makes me smile.
Rev. Stuart gives me peace and I tend to give him peace. For all it’s worth, though, I think you do a great job Stuart and I want to thank you for your toleration and everything. You’re a hero. I mean that sincerely.
I like to think there will be a couple of statues of Stuart and I side by side some day; the bewildered herd will flock at our feet and squint as they they look up at us, just as they do now in so many ways, pondering our achievements rather than our prospects in a country that we helped define.
I am just going outside and may be some time…
Remember folks that the Euro vote is looming over us. Until this has been resolved we don’t know where things will be come the summer.
It could be a damp squib and the SNP get back to do another 5 years building up to independence. Or it could be that by July the wheels are in motion for a sanp referendum in the autumn.
We just can’t say at the moment.
Andrew McLean says:
“is it the Judea’s peoples front or the people’s front of Judea?”
Indeed 🙂
The Left in Scotland has much in common with radioactive elements. Their half life is short and they seem to split into new elements sooner or later.
[…] Scottish independence Scotland politics referendum […]
O/T
The SNP Manifesto must have been bloody wonderful considering how many “respected” unionist journalists say it is shite. They are queueing up to show their brilliant condemnation.
Nicola being lambasted for having her photy in it too many times for their liking.The little minx.( wee smiley thingy)
@Famous 15
The opposition politicos and their meeja are frothing because the FM effectively handed the power to call a referendum over to the people.
A people’s referendum.
Let’s see those bastards come after our patience and understanding now. Let’s see if they have the bottle to assault the public over a second referendum the way they have the SNP.
“Number 5 isn’t a fact, Stuart, it’s not even close.”
It’s backed by evidence supporting every assertion it makes, taken straight from official Green statements.
“Please Rev don’t leave us, when that great day comes,to the will of endless Tory governments. We need you down here.
Pretty please?”
If you can get chip shops to offer salt’n’sauce I’ll think about it.
@NeoconNat 3:01pm
“Most of us spend the first six days of each week sowing wild oats; then we go to church on Sunday and pray for a crop failure”. Fred Allen
Here’s my two cents worth.
The Greens can’t be trusted.
RISE is a ship of fools.
I want independence for Scotland, so I’ll be voting SNP constituency and list.
Oh, and it’s going to be fun watching the infighting at RISE, and its inevitable collapse, once this election’s over. I can hardly wait.
Big Jock @ 3:02pm
Agree with you on that one.
There’s also the fallout as the cannibal Tories eat each other to deal with and the new leader of the Scottish Labour Branch Office Stand Up Comedian and Performance Dance Group.
RISE isn’t worth the risk until they achieve an electoral breakthrough.
If you’ve voted for the Greens in the past then you’ve got the same dilemma switching to SNP as you would in the other direction. You’d be as well trusting your gut instinct rather than doing it as a tactical move.
@JBS
RISE remind me extraordinarily strongly of the wee shouty left wing political clubs at Glasgow Uni. Full of angry wee people who would backstab and cajole their way to relevance. They’d take offence at anything and everything and protest the most random of things for attention.
I dunno If I would call them a ship of fools, because that comes with the territory of being just a few years on the north side of puberty – we can all attest to that, but its certainly a small ship of large egos. She cannot sail like that.
Thanks Nana for the suggestion, and Jack Murphy for posting on the preceding thread the confirmation of the availability of Prof. Curtice’s talk of yesterday. Since it is of some relevance to this thread too, and hasn’t yet appeared, I’m taking your advice Threpnr and repeating the link here:
link to gla.ac.uk
He makes several interesting points, among which that the Greens may be taking LibDem votes. Definitely worth watching!
The SNP will get my constituency vote. They always have.
Jean Urquhart will get my list vote because she is top of the RISE list for H&I. If it had been anybody else then I would probably be voting SNP on the list. I am making a personal vote for Jean and not fro RISE!
I wouldn’t be voting for the treacherous Greens whatever. The UKOK Green leader Bennett came storming across the border to poo pooh at a second Indy Referendum and we had the inglorious site of Caroline Lucas voting with the Tories to water down the Scotland Bill. Treacherous Greens!
In effect ALL parties other than the SNP are functionally Unionist.
Once Scotland is independent then a multitude of parties can arise and many will be useful but now as they distract from the essential goal – Scottish independence – they are essentially vanity projects that subvert the main effort.
Been saying this for months , SNPX2 , it is the only way to get over the line .Of course we are not going to win every constituency , forget the hype , polls go wrong , people say one thing then do another . There is a solid hard core voter out there who will only vote for their party .If we end up with a minority government the unionists will be polarised into action big time as they will see this as a sign the SNP vote is fading. We can forget any chance of a second referendum be it in five years or fifty years .
I have to say the name Rise said it all for me. What does it mean? Who does it represent? Cat Boyd?
At least the Scottish Scialist Party gave you a slight hint but the “far left” are still suffering from the infighting of the Tommy Sheridan days and kind of showed that they almost hated each other more than the tories.
There is only one choice should you wish to head for independence for this country and that is the SNP.
As a longstanding member however I am cautious of the fly-by- nights Tory yesterday SNP today, labour yesterday SNP today. Are the individuals in it for themselves or for their country? SNP must guard of entering into a phase that Labour got into in the eighties and nineties in Scotland of complacency. I have met enough MSP’s to see that could happen.
If Scotland has a SNP majority it has the right to call for a second referendum end of story — but only when we will win outright.
Oops, correction to my previous posting. The link provided is to an slightly earlier talk, NOT the one of yesterday (19.Apr.), which doesn’t seem to be available on that website as yet.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Thanks I’ll watch that later. I’ve said for months that the Greens should be targetting Labour and the LibDems, not the SNP. If they’d done that from the beginning, I’d have been happy to help them when I come across people who hate the SNP about the same as they hate the Unionists parties and don’t want to vote for them any more.
I probably still will, but not with much heart or enthusiasm after their antics.
@thoughtsofascot
🙂
Unsteady as she goes. Watch them move gingerly around on the deck for fear of capsizing. They can’t avoid it, though.
“So it’s vote Tartan Tory if you follow Stuart’s advice.”
Well there’s a blast from the past, haven’t heard that expression used for a long time.
Wasn’t aware Tories were in favour of Free University tuition, free homecarecare for the elderly, free travel for the over 60’s, free prescriptions.
Helping the ailing shipbuilding industry, helping steelmaking industry.
Need to look at their manifesto and election material again.
SNP x 2
A link posted earlier on an older thread from Jack Murphy.
It’s Prof Curtice last night at Glasgow Uni giving a talk on the polls and he covers pros and cons of tactical voting along with his views on their chances of success.
We were given a flavour of last nights talk by Robert J Sutherland in a post he made. I’m sure many will be interested.
link to gla.ac.uk
I won’t be gloating if RISE doesn’t achieve much. They have some good people, and mean well. Greens may get a couple of extra seats.
IMO, it’s not the time to risk splitting the independence vote. SNP twice here.
Iain More
the scottish greens are a different party
all
in your haste to convince people to vote snp1&2….it isnt necessary to insult other supporters on indy. in 2 weeks time, the political hats will be changed for yes2 hats
if you think that tactical voting in your region is too big a risk, fair enough, (id agree with you about the south and highland regions) that doesnt give you the right to insult other members of the yes campaign
fife&mid scotland region
SNP1&GREENS2
OT.TODAY. Standards Probe into Alistair Carmichael MP DROPPED!
“The commissioner has now said it falls outside her remit.
This was because Mr Carmichael had been made aware of the memo through official Scottish Office channels, and not due to his role as an MP.
The commissioner, Kathryn Hudson, said: “I have established that the conduct which led to my inquiry falls outside my remit. I do not, therefore, make any criticism, or indeed any other comment, on Mr Carmichael’s conduct in this affair.” 🙁
BBC:- link to archive.is
*to the tune of Auld Lang Syne*
‘I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two,
I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two,
I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two,
I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two’
2nd verse
And repeat…
isn’t it odd how the BBC are highlighting all sorts of alternative pro-indy parties but aren’t talking about alternatives to the Conservative (e.g. UKIP) in Scotland, or alternatives to Labour (Conservative, UKIP etc)
(see what I did there!).
One other interesting comment that Curtice made yesterday was re South Scotland. In observing that Elaine Murray (ex-MSP for Dumfriesshire) is the only Labour constituency candidate not to have a place on the regional list as well, he wondered aloud if she either knew something that no-one else knew and was thus very confident of winning, or alternatively would simply be relieved to be getting out of it all!
My apologies to everyone—the Professor Curtice/University of Glasgow VIDEO link I put up is from 2015 !
A basic error—-must do better. 🙁
1. RISE AREN’T GOING TO WIN ANY SEATS.
15,000 votes on the list will win them a seat in glasgow
2. A “PRO-INDEPENDENCE OPPOSITION” IS IMPOSSIBLE.
had the indy groups backed the idea of tactical voting in some of the regions of Scotland, it would have been possible
you and kelly have ensured it wont happen by the stance you have taken Stu. a self fullfilling prophesy
3. A “PRO-INDEPENDENCE OPPOSITION” IS MEANINGLESS ANYWAY.
this i agree with, as long as the SNP get a majority, it doesnt really matter who the opposition are. it was only ever a nice to have, and believe me, getting rid of wullie rennie would be very very nice. btw, the “labour feeble 50” was coined to highlight
this exact point. indeed, the 56 snp mps are no more capable either.
4. THE SNP AREN’T GOING TO WIN EVERY CONSTITUENCY SEAT.
no they arent, but the stats you use to illustrate this point are from 2011
did you forget that we had an election in 2015?
i have been consistently arguing for a tactical vote, which means snp1&2 in highlands region because it is too risky, same for the south. if you had used the figures from
fife&mid, your argument would have been shot to pieces
5. THE GREENS’ COMMITMENT TO A SECOND INDYREF IS LUKEWARM.
so i take it then you think wullie rennie is a better bet?
the green manifesto states they will campaign for yes in indyref2. how indyref2 comes about is not going to be the greens decision, it will be the snps. todays snp manifesto makes no mention at all of the means or method by which the snp will call indyref2. and rightly so. but the snp also believe it should be by a “citizens’ initiative”, not by another referendum, but if the eu ref is an out and/or support for indy increases markedly, it will be the council election result which will be the trigger, the “citizens’ initiative”,
I for one will certainly be voting Green in the Lothian list. I want Andy Wightman at Holyrood to push the SNP government to be as radical as possible in Land Reform with particular regard to the rights of tenant farmers and transparency of ownership. As for fracking, the Greens are definitely opposing it while the SNP have been somewhat min-moued, (private meetings with INEOS and an intention to accept whatever the scientists say about safety).
If that brings about an SNP minority government I will be very pleased as I think that Scotland had its best government ever between 2007 and 2011 (apart from the UK late forties Atlee government).
Being in a minority may perhaps stop an SNP government pursuing Blairite “vanity” policies such as their attempt to abolish corroboration requirements, the new named person bureaucracy (rightly condemned by Ruth Davidson for the spreading of resources too thinly and imposing a burden on head teachers and health workers who are already overworked and under-resourced), and the silly unfair criminalisation of “sectarian” singing at football matches (God Save the Queen permitted?).
Carmichael would not have had access to those Scottish Office channels if he had not been an MP. To ignore that is to take us all for fools. He was in charge of the SO at the time of the leaks for fucks sake.
How long did it take them to find that loophole for Carmichael to crawl through? Reason that the Standards probe was dropped;
“This was because Mr Carmichael had been made aware of the memo through official Scottish Office channels, and not due to his role as an MP.”
What does that even mean? Absolute bollocks!
In plain language, he was secretary of state for Scotland responsible for the department which created the leak, he personally publicised a feeked up memo to blacken the First minister during an election. He then denied he had done it until after he was caught.
I’m not sure which standards the commissioner adheres to but it’s not one that should be tolerated in a civilised society!
I hope the liberal ship goes down with all hands!
We need to get out of the effing union ASAP!
SNP x 2
Hi W NEILSON, how do you do?
I read your post with interest. The problem you have is that you are basically gambling. I have looked closely at the various possible permutations our electoral system might conjure up and the only thing that is certain is uncertainty.
The slightest adjustment in voting levels, whether on the constituency or regional vote, can lead to quite unexpected results. I’d be happy to go into more detail.
Now, it is possible that we may go into a UK constitutional crisis this summer and you are basically arguing in favour of diluting the SNP’s share of the vote and its political legitimacy generally.
I think that could potentially come back to haunt you and the rest of us.
I have no issue with the principles that underpin your argument and I may well even agree with a lot of what you say. But we really don’t want to be sending the SNP to a UK gunfight this summer armed with a mere penknife.
You should reconsider.
Full marks to WoS for stating the blunt facts about the risks to pro-indy of not voting SNP X 2.
For example Edinburgh Pentlands is one of the seats the Tories are targetting and they are putting a huge effort on the ground and leafletting etc in order to try and win it back from the SNP.
Pentlands is also one of the constuencies where there is a high risk of tactical voting by Unionists who want the SNP to lose the constituency by any means.
The very last thing that is needed is for the SNP to be pipped to the post for the constituency because of pro-indy votes being diverted to the Greens or RISE.
The normal figure used for states which have direct representation is 5% of the electorate for the petition or around 200,000 votes in Scotland’s case.
So why one million?
Ian More,
I would probably have voted for Jean had she stood as an Independent.
Standing as RISE she doesn’t even have her name on the ballot paper. (The Greens have put ‘re-elect John Finnie on theirs). I have not had so much as a leaflet from RISE, so I think it is pretty unlikely that she will get anywhere near a seat.
We were less than 1,000 votes short of the another list candidate last time which would have replaced a tory.
Re Carmichael.
They won’t do anything about his behaviour.
He is a hero to the London Establishment.
That, I’m afraid, is democracy UK style.
Or lack of it….
Carmichael, in short, is not a hero but is a Very Big Massey Ferguson.
Marian
rise isnt standing any candidates in any constituencies
even the green CANDIDATE in the highlands region is encouraging green voters to vote SNP in all constituencies
O/T
Alistair Carmichael probe abandoned by standards commissioner
What do you have to do to get thrown out of Westminster a whole year wasted on this cretin it must make the Orkney four sick.
The Rev says ‘if you can get chip shops to offer salt’n’sauce I’ll think about it’.
Thank you, I’m on it!
@ W NEILSON
You never said who you would be voting for in the constituency vote.
@ Luigi
“Piss in his pool.”
Well, I kinda did that. I was so pissed off with the way he’s managing the garden that I went with all my friends and relatives–56 of us all told–and sat in his own garden morning, noon and night. He has some very plush green benches in the garden. We’re making ourselves heard and being a bit of a nuisance to him. But he thinks we’re garden gnomes and just ignores us. All he ever wants to do is put a pig on a spit for his barbecue. He never roasts the pig’s head though–not sure why.
thoughtsofascot said: “RISE remind me extraordinarily strongly of the wee shouty left wing political clubs at Glasgow Uni. Full of angry wee people who would backstab and cajole their way to relevance. They’d take offence at anything and everything and protest the most random of things for attention.”
… aye and they all grow up to be New Labour apparatchiks, or right wing media whores. One ‘Socialist Worker’ from Glesga Uni is now the editor of Question Time, among many examples.
The only socialist who ever did anything for ordinary people in Scotland in my lifetime was Citizen Tommy (poll tax, ending warrant sales)… but as somebody said above, he keeps ruining it for himself.
If I was Carmichael I would take back that apology, he has done nothing wrong! Brave Carmichael seeker of truth, warrior against those loathsome Jocks, a man without sin, virtuous to a fault, righteous and honourable, If it falls to him to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so he is ready for the fight. The fight against falsehood and those who peddle it. His fight begins today.
This is what passes for Justice when your living at the end of a corrupting debase empire, its death thoughts blinding it to any decency, they should make that proven liar a Lord, let him stink in debauchery like the other vermin in ermine!
Another nail in the coffin of the UKOK shits.
Marian@4.55
My constituency and that is exactly what Labtories want.A good showing by The Greens and the Tank Commander in through the back door.
At least these pesky Unionistas are consistently devious.
“Alistair Carmichael”
Well, I now hope the good people of Orkney and Shetland tell the LieDems what they think of them in two weeks time.
Have Tavish Scott and Liam McArthur, Shetland and Orkney respectively, publically dissociated themselves from Carmichael? If not, then may they be tarred with the same brush.
It also doesn’t matter how Carmichael came into possession of the memo or that it was his SPAD . Leaking it was contrary to the ministerial code which Carmichael was still bound by even if he was technically no longer an MP at the time or if he’d been a memberof the Lords he was still a Minister of State.
On the 5th of may, scotland will get what scotland deserves.
Very helpful article Rev! Thank you = )
I truly believe that everyone should vote with their heads and their hearts. If you want Independence then use your head. In an Independent Scotland everyone will get a fair chance.
I know I will be voting for the best for Scotland in every way.
I will be skipping all the way to my polling station!!
SNP and SNP = )
#humpgate
“Sorry, not my remit. He wasn’t an MP at the time.”
Cuilean says:
20 April, 2016 at 4:04 pm
*to the tune of Auld Lang Syne*
‘I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two,
I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two,
I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two,
I’m SNP times two, because I’m SNP times two’
2nd verse
And repeat…
Ruby replies
I pinched your lyrics ditched the because and added a ‘Heigh ho the derry-o’ and sang them to the tune of the ‘Farmer in the Dell’
‘I’m SNP times two, I’m SNP times two,
Heigh ho the derry-o
‘I’m SNP times two,
link to tinyurl.com
Just read over an outline of the SNP manifesto and I am impressed and very happy with it = )
Way to go Nicola!!
SNP and SNP =)
Succinct and straight to the very important point Rev!
We face the Orange Order and Right Wing Football supporters,
who have bought a flag and who don’t want to lose it.
We face those without social media believing the Daily Redcoat
and the EBC.
We face the wealthy who will bear every influence to keep the status quo and the poor poor.
This election will not be a whitewash as there are just too many
powers out there who are set against Scotland’s independence.
I would plead with everyone to drop SNP leaflets, spread the Wee
Black Book and engage with everyone that you come across.
The Beeb, the Hootsmon, the Hail, the Redcoat are all waiting to
propose that the SNP bubble has burst, and independence dead.
Take nothing for granted and expect nothing that you haven’t worked for.
As a supporter of a party that expects to finish well below theSNP! A statement of the obvious, I can’t understand some SNP voters giving their Regional vote to another party.
It’s extremely unlikely that I would vote SNP but that poster that says SNP ×2 certainly seems the sensible to vote SNP
Hi W NEILSON.
You typed,
“Being in a minority may perhaps stop an SNP government pursuing Blairite “vanity” policies such as…”
I don’t know about pursuing Blairite policies but an SNP minority would certainly jeopardise any prospect of indyref2.
Re Carmichael
We knew he’d get away with it again but the manner in which this has been dealt with is now, or should be, clear to every resident of Scotland let alone Orkney and Shetland
For the Parliamentary Standards to put out this pathetic lie about being outside of “Her” remit,I thought there was a “Them” involved in this business
It’s a clear sign to any casual observer this affair stinks of cover up to high heaven and it’s probably a stick on bet now this goes all the way up, to go to these lengths
This will no doubt now be spun into Nicola Sturgeon guilty now all over again
How anybody in any party can associate themselves with this vile odious oink is totally beyond me
Ah winae spit oan him if he wiz oan fire
Below is a wee example, illustrating the folly of trying to play games with the regional vote, that I posted on Facebook earlier today.
…………………………………………
Hi Jim.
The figures below show how the regional seats were allocated in the 2011 Holyrood election, in our region, North East Scotland.
———————————————————–
SNP’s total regional vote was 140,749. They won all 10 constituency seats so their regional total becomes 140,749 divided by 10+1 (11), making 12,795.
Labour, with a total of 43,893, take the first regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 43,893 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 21,947.
Conservatives, with a total of 37,681, take the second regional seat. Their regional total then becomes 37,681 divided by 1+1(2), giving them 18,841.
The third regional seat goes to Labour with their 21,947. Their regional vote then becomes 43,893 divided by 2+1(3), giving them 14,631.
The fourth regional seat goes to the Conservatives with their 18,841. Their regional vote then becomes 37,681 divided by 2+1(3), giving them 12,560.
The fifth regional seat goes to the Lib-Dems with their 18,178. Their regional vote then becomes 18,178 divided by 1+1 (2), giving them 9,089.
The sixth regional seat goes to Labour with their 14,631. Their regional vote then becomes 43,893 divided by 3+1 (4), giving them 10,973.
The seventh (and last) regional seat goes to the SNP with their 12,795, only 235 votes ahead of the Conservatives’ 12,560.
———————————————————–
Think about it…
If the SNP’s regional vote was reduced by 2,600, (1.8% of their vote), by voters voting for other pro-indy parties, then their figure for trying to win a regional place would have been 138,149, divided by the 10+1 (11), making 12,559.
These 2,600 lost SNP votes would have allowed the Tories to take the 7th regional seat by one vote, with their 12,560, and the SNP would have lost an MSP.
Let’s assume that 2,392 of those lost SNP voters voted Green. Greens would then have 12,796 and would take the 7th seat, replacing the SNP. The rest of the 2,600 , ie for Rise, Solidarity or any other pro-indy party, would have been wasted.
What I’m trying to get over here is that in the regional vote, there are so many variables at play. Nobody will know how many constituency seats the SNP have won until after the declarations.
Nobody will know how many regional votes the parties have until after the counts.
As I’ve typed before, any reduction from 2011 in the SNP’s number of seats or total votes would have the Yoon media salivating with glee. Headlines like “Wheels Fall Off Indy Bandwagon” and so on.
The Yoon media see the SNP, with a working majority, as the threat to the union, not any other party.
Rev: a great summary which stresses the important points. Thank you.
I know several principled Greens who campaigned very hard during the Referendum and whom I respect but the behaviour of senior party politicians has not impressed me, as Iain More mentions. Their raison d’être is not independence and a sizeable number of the Greens were not in favour during the Yes campaign.
Proud Cybernat: il faut cultiver votre jardin. Don’t worry about your neighbour, he’s moving after the June referendum.
What Effijy said, with Carmichaels on.
Slightly o/t but while musing over Kezia and her position on Trident as I read a bed-time story, these words seemed apposite: “Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits.”
Ah, Kezia……
This is no longer funny. I’m very disappointed at what is going on here with all this list vote hoohaw.
It’s so obvious to me that this plethora of articles, stories, twitter storms ect. about “splitting the vote” is all a load of shite. Why do I say this?
Well any rational interpretation of the polls, without involving emotion would convince you that the SNP will win more than 65 seats in this election. Either from the constituencies alone or in combination with list seats.
Now that is not what has disappointed me, oh no. It’s that the Left and Greens themselves appear to have shot themselves in the foot with SNP voters in their cackhanded campaign to win the “second vote”.
That effort has been dismal to be honest.
However I’m also very disapointed that we are allowing the division intended by the BUM to affect us here on Wings. During the Yes campaign it was a given that WE were all on the same side, I’m not talking of party leaders or office holders here, just the grassroots.
After this election is done and dusted I’m really hoping that not too much damage has been done between the wider Yes movement.
The distrust, ire, grievance over this issue is being created by the BUM on behalf of their Unionist masters. They are way past May’s election result knowing that it is already lost. Their eye is to any future cooperation between pro-Indy parties!
They are attempting to drive a wedge now between the wide ranging pro-indy support, that much is clear. Shout from the rooftops how you will vote and shout your arguments for why you believe your view is the right one of whatever party.
We can all do that, though let’s not attack any other party in the proces. I won’t be helping the establishment by singing from the same hymn sheet as any of them. Keep the peace at least among ourselves.
Indyref2 needs as many on the same side when the fight begins.
OT
So the Westmidden Standards Commission has dropped the case against Carmichael just 2 weeks before the Holyrood Election.
Rotten, Corrupt and Sleazy Britain! The Banana Monarchy!
@Thepnr 6.12pm
Yep, noticed a few dogged comments on here that seem to come out of the woodwork near an election bringing divisiveness.
Ignore.
BothVotesSNP
Shitty system designed to split. I will only be voting for the SNP and if that means putting 2 x’s in two boxes then that’s fine, I will not be fooled.
Call Kaye tomorrow.
Rise in unemployment …… its a bit political but let’s not go down that road …… I want to hear how you are spending your time instead of working.
🙂
@macakamura
Hahaha, best post today. Fair cheered me up 🙂
Good analysis as ever. I will be voting SNP x 2 so have no personal interest in the infighting about whether to vote Green in the 2nd vote. It’s not an issue in my constituency, North East Scotland.
But maybe there is a case for it in Mid Scotland and Fife as SC argues. I’d certainly like to see Andy Wightman in Parliament too but don’t know how the numbers workout in Lothian.
I looked in vain for a video report of the SNP manifesto launch in Glasgow today. It’s such a pity that Pacific Quay hasn’t been able to locate a camera and mic.
As for the liar Carmichael, the Parliamentary “Standards” Commissioner has been able to find a rule book only to rule out action. What a surprise! Corruption is their only standard.
Thepnr @ 6.12. Well, said that man it needed saying.
I am sick to the back teeth of all this BUM nonsense. I think I might hibernate until the 5th May. The BUM and the yoons seem to be fighting Indy ref2 and it ain’t been called yet.
Sad thing is, Greens and Rise should have entered this campaign on a straight forward ticket of … here are our policies, if you like them, vote for us.
They should also have seen the dangers on the horizon of suggesting tactical voting and ensured their supporters kept their mouth shut on that topic and stuck to a “looking for a more radical alternative? Then listen to what we have to offer” message.
Whatever the outcome, this election is going to be remembered as one where small parties didn’t promote their policies, they promoted tactical split voting.
Hi Capella.
See my comment from 6.02pm on this page.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@ Brian Doonthetoon
Interesting summary of the situation on North East, thanks.
I wouldn’t contemplate voting Green here as it does look too risky. Also, there isn’t a Green candidate of the stature of Andy Wightman here so there’s no contest!
But if you are in Lothian it might look very different. It might seem worth the gamble.
The Greens, to me, are a pressure group. But some individuals deserve to be in positions of influence on account of their knowledge and experience.
@BDTT.
Thanks for that great worked example: even I understood the arithmetic.
If you want independence, only SNPx2 will do.
Or you could wake up on 6/5/16 with all your socialist and environmental principles intact and a minority SNP government, and Unionists having multiplied organisms all over the place.
Do ya feel lucky, Groovers?
@Capella
Union Jackie at 6.30 Reporting Scotland they had a little bit
of the launch, somebody will put it up I’m sure, it was excellent, loads of good stuff
Union Jackie was tonight unable to keep the contempt off her face, I think she’s given up even trying now
Pathetic
Aaaagh! Tank commander on telly with her juices flowing, Party political broadcast seemed to be all about the upcoming second referendum? I didn’t know. No policies, just how she was going to be the saviour of the Union, and how she was going to stand up to Nicola. Oh well.
And as for that lying Barsteward Carmichael……….Outwith my remit I couldn’t possibly comment.
SNPx 2 SNPX2 SNPx2
Two Conservatives at my door today.
“We want Scotland to move on” said they
“Move on to what” ? Says I.
“To be one Nation again” says they.
“Like we were before” says I.
“Yes” they exclaimed.
“In other words you want everything to go back to the way it was,rather than moving forward.” They left.
@ Dr Jim Ha! it might have been worth watching Union Jackie having to report the launch through gritted teeth. She has perfected the art of the sneer but it isn’t a good look.
Sooner or later the Real Media will upload it. The photos certainly looked excellent especially, “Large queues formed outside the venue ahead of the event.”
link to bbc.co.uk
Here’s SNP manifesto fur aw us who didnae see it aw o’er our nyoos.
link to d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net
Excellent deduction Rev,i really dont know what has got into the small parties if they think that we the electorate are not watching.
I will say it again though i am getting sick of saying it WE ARE NOT THE SNP we are the Wingers tremble in our presence lol
And i have to ask the serious question just who is in charge of these parties if its not us the electorate then frankly they must have missed the memo.
Now behave yourselfs indy folk you are acting like a bunch of yoons and lets get the job done first then we can figure out who sits where until then all this is pissing in the wind.
SNPx2 unless in special circumstances like the possible chance to remove a head yoon.
2017 guys be patient we have not forgot about you or what you did during indy ref 1 ,timing is of importance and now is not the time 😉
Greens are just Tories on bikes
Nothing SNP in C4 news, shock. They detest Scotland anyway but even so. Carbuncle inoncent too but LibDem’s furious at tory 2015 campaign funding overspend undeclaring fraud in their patch of teamGB. Stench of yew kay corruption very high this sunny evening
So on the ukok hand
link to archive.is
“Parliament was dissolved for the election on March 30 last year, which meant the Lib Dem minister, along with his 649 colleagues, were no longer MPs even though they continued to receive their parliamentary salaries until May 7.
Ms Hudson explained how she had begun her inquiry last summer but, because of the election court hearing and an assessment by Police Scotland of allegations against Mr Carmichael, halted it until both these matters were concluded; by December, they had been.”
But the disgraced not MP got away with it in the High Court Edinburgh because he WAS an MP and therefore his disgrace conduct was NOT Carbuncle but the MP Carbuncle and UK.gov sec of state too.
It’s a UKOK yoonster world.
Will any of these parties who are not the SNP take votes from Labour, Tory,or Lib Dems….Not Hardly!
Or are their supporters in their eagerness to get any of these folk elected, thinking about that, because if they’re not that’s OK but there should be no complaints from them if or when SNP supporters get annoyed about that
It’s an election and people will fight for their preferred choice,
Its’ perfectly reasonable to support who you want, what’s not reasonable is to expect other folk to like it just because they might have voted the same way on Independence
This is another election on another subject and very important even though we all want a YES vote if we get the chance again, in between times all these other parties are as much the opponents of the SNP as Labour Tory or the Lib Dems and will get no favours and why should they
They are political opponents and they want SNP voters, so the SNP should crush them just as they would any other party
#fairsfair
newsdrive scotland 4pm
headlines
1.celtic manager
2.victoria wood
3.message in a bottle
link to bbc.co.uk
look forward where labour manifesto is heading day of their launch
Sitting in the pub watching the news. Lovely water here, by the way.
What’s this about an SNP manifesto launch?
😯
look forward where labour manifesto is heading day of their launch
Oh no, C4 teatime news pissing hard on SNP, special C4 guest Alex Bell. Bet those liggers didn’t have to work to find Bell.
Very dirty UKOK stuff but looks like how its playing along, as in rancid The Graun bile dripping ” Nicola Sturgeon has dampened her supporters’ hopes”
link to archive.is
C4 liggers always on look for not exactly attractive views of their Scotch region too.
To think we came so close to having the whole UKOK media creep show pissing in to the tent, instead they’re standing right in the middle of it all and smearing everything with their shite.
On WOS Twitter right now, stooshie at hustings (in Ardrossan/Three Towns?) – anyone have any more images/feeds?
I am beyond anger at the Carmichael whitewash job. Wagons circled, privilege protects its own and business as usual. Don’t forget to pay your BBC UkOk tax though or we’ll have you up before the beak before you can say Jakey Burdy.
Sorry, it is simply not good enough. I want out. SNP/SNP, Remain, clean up the councils, then onwards to IRef #2.
Anyone who doesn’t like it can fuck right off.
Thepnr @18:12, I agree with you 100%.
The small pro-indy parties have made a tactical error; they should have been far more SLab/LieDem-facing in word as in deed. And should now be.
I will be glad when this election is over. We must keep in mind that everyyesser and more besides will have to be onside to get the eventual result we all want.
Perfectly timed from the Herald, not the article, a comment from a Unionist:
link to archive.is
“If SNP do not get at least 50% of the vote it will be a blow as they will not be able to boast having the majority of Scots supporting them. ”
It fair makes you think!
link to parliament.uk
The Commissioner can investigate allegations that a named Member has breached the rules of conduct set out in paragraph 10-16 of the Code of Conduct.
link to publications.parliament.uk
V. Rules of Conduct
9. Members are expected to observe the following rules and associated Resolutions of the House.
10. Members shall base their conduct on a consideration of the public interest, avoid conflict between personal interest and the public interest and resolve any conflict between the two, at once, and in favour of the public interest.
11. No Member shall act as a paid advocate in any proceeding of the House.[2]
12. The acceptance by a Member of a bribe to influence his or her conduct as a Member, including any fee, compensation or reward in connection with the promotion of, or opposition to, any Bill, Motion, or other matter submitted, or intended to be submitted to the House, or to any Committee of the House, is contrary to the law of Parliament.[3]
13. Members shall fulfil conscientiously the requirements of the House in respect of the registration of interests in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. They shall always be open and frank in drawing attention to any relevant interest in any proceeding of the House or its Committees, and in any communications with Ministers, Members, public officials or public office holders.[4]
14. Information which Members receive in confidence in the course of their parliamentary duties should be used only in connection with those duties. Such information must never be used for the purpose of financial gain.
15. Members are personally responsible and accountable for ensuring that their use of any expenses, allowances, facilities and services provided from the public purse is in accordance with the rules laid down on these matters. Members shall ensure that their use of public resources is always in support of their parliamentary duties. It should not confer any undue personal or financial benefit on themselves or anyone else, or confer undue advantage on a political organisation.
16. Members shall never undertake any action which would cause significant damage to the reputation and integrity of the House of Commons as a whole, or of its Members generally.
Wonder how article 16 applied?
link to bbc.co.uk
C4 special guest Alex Bell tonight, must be having a interesting time right now
“A one-time adviser to former Scottish first minister Alex Salmond has written an online blog saying the current case for an independent Scotland “is dead”
Mr Bell claimed the economic case presented during the referendum – which took place on 18 September last year – was based on wishful thinking.
He suggested the current SNP leadership knew this but continued to lead a “morally dubious” government which opposed Tory cuts without any credible alternative.”
Gets him work from all Britnat BBC led media but C4 are always surprising hypocrites. If that C4 crew were actually nothing more than attack propagandists going nuts on Scottish democracy, they could have at least asked delights like Bell why polls dont agree with his assessments on the SNP. Anything for this rock solid union though.
I voted SNP/Green last time around, and even though they’ve given me plenty of reasons to consider SNPx2 I think I’ll stick with the Greens for my list vote. Important bit here is I’m in Glasgow!
For those who want independence before any other policy, both votes for the SNP are the only option.
Even if it fails to get an outright majority, the SNP must get a high percentage of the vote.
Every list vote for the SNP counts, whether or not it results in a list seat.
The worst political mistake an SNP supporter will ever make is to give the list vote to the Greens or RISE.
Don’t be duped by the Greens or by The National.
Evening all. Sorry to go OT.
A quick question for my fellow wingers.
Are the perks from the last fundraiser still in transit?
I ask as I’ve been on holiday for 3 weeks and have a dodgy postman.
Kind regards ….
I look upon my list vote as a fallback vote just in case the constituency vote falls short which as many wingers have pointed out, could happen in some seats.
IMHO lending your list vote to a minor pro Indy party is playing with fire, and could, however unlikely result in a nightmare scenario. Consider this question:
Who do you want to be first minister of Scotland ? A. Nicola Sturgeon, B. Kezia Dugdale, C. Ruth Davidson, D. Willie Rennie.
It really is a no brainier
SNP X 2
Aye Heedtracker there must be an election coming up i thought the whining in my ear was getting louder and sure enough one after the other out pop the same shit flingers to tell us all how terrible it would all be fuck it will be dan snow the bawbag next and another round of JK trolling jeez.
Or as i read it now please please please pretty please get back in your box Scotland.
And the survey says fuck off.
Jack Murphy,
“OT.TODAY. Standards Probe into Alistair Carmichael MP DROPPED!
“The commissioner has now said it falls outside her remit.”
Electoral Reform Society,
Electoral Commission,
Information Commissioner,
All “regulators”,
the Scottish Justice system.
They are all rotten to the core.
Carmichael-unbelievable- just goes to show if you do dirty work for the establishment you will get an invisibility shield and probably a robe of honour.
BBC complaints fired off- beattie at lunch time not a mention of snp manifesto, reporting scotland lunch time snp manifesto 4th in running order at least 5 mins on some football manager, then funeral of lovely girl, then unemployment and snp bad and then less than a minute on manifesto. Evening RS better. BBC is a downright disgrace to Scotland.
OT
Had a power cut earlier so I went out to cut what I laughingly call grass. Electric mower.
Bad SNP!
C4 news is ITN news so they are ofcourse tory but they are state owned and funded, with a few ads. All of which makes their bizarre brand of UKOK rule Britannia in our non existent Scotland region fun to watch.
They’re all about toryboy world in England and London but they are just as determined to stop Scottish democracy as any high paid ligger in Pacific Quay.
Sticking up Alex Bell as their SNP bad headline probably shows their UKOK desperation in all its creepy gore.
Marian says:
20 April, 2016 at 4:55 pm
Full marks to WoS for stating the blunt facts about the risks to pro-indy of not voting SNP X 2.
For example Edinburgh Pentlands is one of the seats the Tories are targetting and they are putting a huge effort on the ground and leafletting etc in order to try and win it back from the SNP.
Pentlands is also one of the constuencies where there is a high risk of tactical voting by Unionists who want the SNP to lose the constituency by any means.
—————
Lothian is one of the regions I am slightly nervous about.
This is an area where anti-SNP tactical voting could perhaps have an impact. Edinburgh had one of the highest NO votes in the referendum, so I imagine the London parties will be focusing on ‘preventing a second referendum’, and this ‘one party state’ nonsense.
I know the SNP did well in last years GE, but the results were close at the 2011 Holyrood election, and those are the charts that will be used on the local pamphlets.
Dugdale and Davidson are standing here, and their higher profiles may see unionists get behind them in these 2 seats at least. There used to be a time when Labour and SNP would tactically vote for each other to stop the Tory. But now we are starting to see the yoon parties back each other up instead.
Anyone been canvassing in these constituencies ?
Yes, heedtracker, but apart from Jon Snow, C4 are hard-core UKOKians, and for some reason tonight they deployed him instead to stare at nine chairs not sat on by Tory Boys and their dodgy election economics.
Bell is just another Massey Ferguson/Bamber Gascoigne opportunist who is “morally dubious” and will always sell out to the highest bidder.
“After such knowledge, what forgiveness?”
(T.S. Eliot, ya bass.)
yesindyref2 @ 20:05
That yoon comment was conclusive for me, many thanks. I know exactly how I’m going to place both my votes now.
The only remaining issue then for all of us is to do everything possible to encourage everyone to turn out on the day and vote!
Missed all the news, been away all day but caught this just a minute ago. Hope link works.
Worth a keek even if it’s been posted previous. What’s the queue for? 🙂
Off to get my supper. Then catch up properly later.
link to twitter.com
Apparently you are a pro-independence website that presents the facts as the are. Do you think that the 3 No commentators vs 1 Yes commentator would have increased pressure on it to change if the Greens became the 4th largest party at Holyrood? But yet no mention of this in your wee list. The independence campaign is yet to be won and needs to be won through persuasion at Holyrood and in the media. In that context both in Holyrood and in the media greater representation of pro-yes (lukewarm or not) is to be welcomed. yet no recognition in your so impartial analysis. I suppose you’ve got to give the funders what they want to read.
Hey, you might not believe this, but I got this link from the BBC’s own website.
link to snp.org
@Jam 8:42pm.
Eh?
On the plus side, my bulbs are doing well.
Jam says:
20 April, 2016 at 8:42 pm
Apparently you are a pro-independence website that presents the facts as the are
What’s the problem with
“In short, then, there are at a minimum 15 constituencies where the Nats will face, at the very least, a serious fight. If they were to lose just over half of them they’d fall short of a majority and would need list seats to get across the line.”
If Harvie is part of it and the SNP loses seats with the likely possible minority SNP government, will it have been worth it?
Green’s are great are they not. Dont be mean, Vote Green, we’re nice and independence for Scotland would be nice too, maybe.
severin carrell
His article guardian on snp manifesto launch,had this
*This article was amended on Wednesday 20 April to clarify Nicola Sturgeon’s remarks
well done nicola—haha
Is that Jam today or Jam tomorrow or worse yoon Jam where they give you an empty jar.
Away and take your pretentious mumblings someplace else there`s a good chap.
It’s been a while since Robert Peffers and JDman posted. Hope they are both OK. I miss the early morning digests and the history lessons.
JaMur
My experience is that the perks arrive when you least expect it. Stu works on the articles and I think he has trained the separats to do the postal stuff. They are slow but eventually accurate.
Congratulations to Westminster Corruption in general and to the LibDems specifically.
The Fib Demers had one of their leaders involved in allegations about him trying to kill his gay lover who was going to expose him, they had bid dirty Cyril Smith Paedophile extraordinair who abused Children for decades, and they have Carmichael a Liar identified by a £1,000,000 inquiry, a Liar who admitted it after being revealed, and a Liar who was condemned by a Judge for his actions, and a man who sought to Bankrupt 4 of his constituents
who had tried to uphold Truth and Justice in politics.
All get off entirely scot free.
They can all keep their ill gotten gains, titles, pensions,
and their liberty.
They would all have been imprisoned in a more just country,
but if your morals and principles match the Fib Dems then vote for them and be damned.
DerekM
your patter is chankin. Do you think that constitutes wit?
Re the Carmichael whitewash- so the matter is not a parliamentary standards issue apparently. How that can be so when Carmichael was still acting as Secretary of State for Scotland is beyond me.
Government does not close down during an election- the prime minister does not stop being prime minister for example.
If you leak confidential government documents purporting to relate to a conversation with a foreign diplomat there is a national security issue. Had I done so I would be getting hauled over the coals.
Its fuck the SNP- we look after our own. We need to End London Rule: Westminster is completely corrupt. They might as well convert the palace into flats and setup a UKOK boardroom in Canary Wharf.
Maybe we all switch and vote leave then snap indyref… a kind of Leave then Leave campaign. I don’t know- just a bit pissed about the “parliamentary standards” joke.
Thepnr’s post further up is spot on by the way. We need to get the job done at this election then unite and push on from there.
Tinto Chiel says:
20 April, 2016 at 8:38 pm
Yes, heedtracker, but apart from Jon Snow,
They are all the same. During their awful referendum campaign they came to Scotland and really stuck the UKOK boot in. One time they had a posh English lady on western isles ferry, explaining that it was all a farce as Scotland no longer exists. And now they’re back to shit even harder on non existent Scotland.
@Jam
From the about page: “The site advocates Scottish independence, but is not affiliated or connected in any way to the SNP, and neither gives to or receives money from the party, nor indeed any other party. We have an inquiring mind, and welcome intelligent contributions from all sides of the political debate.”
Note that: “The site advocates Scottish independence
If the SNP went lukewarm on Independence I personally would expect the Rev to give them Hell. Personally if they did, I’d want to start a new party to stand against them in 2021. But in all my about 43 years of Indy support, including the SNP doldrums of the 80s, I’ve never seen them waver in their support for:
Independence for Scotland
Lesley Riddoch disagrees
Tomorrow @ScotNational @LesleyRiddoch defends her decision to vote Green instead of SNP in the list vote
Re Carmichael. As heedtracker points out above – he was cleared of the offence of lying because he was an MP and for MPs lying is perfectly acceptable.
However, he is also cleared of lying because he was not an MP therefore the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner has no jurisdiction.
He both was and was not an MP when he lied. He must be Schrodinger’s MP.
On WOS Twitter, Mags Curran’s ‘sick’ tweet about Victoria Wood ‘no longer exists’.
(What did she say? I assume someone’s kept it…)
Cheers HandAndShrimp.
Gfaetheblock says:
20 April, 2016 at 9:18 pm
Lesley Riddoch disagrees
She does. On facebook The National’s selling it as anti extreme politics, presumably a SNP government that means extreme to The National.
Funny how 70+ years of the Scotland region in Labour’s pocket wasn’t an extreme though.
link to facebook.com
And a big unsubstantiated call to say SNP won’t win every constituency seat. They were damn close in 2015 and polls put them significantly further ahead now than in comparison to the month before westminster (an average of 4-5 percentage points). And here’s my source:
link to en.wikipedia.org
Of the 3 they lost, edinburgh south and orkney and shetland had particular extenuating circumstances that could easily be reversed. This coupled with an increase in the vote (according to the polls of around 4% could swing the lot). It might not but i might and it’s by no means a cert that it won’t.I’d argue there is a small chance of a risk on the downside that SNP end up with 64 seats say but it’s pretty small. Likelihood is an increase over 69 and a win on constituencies alone. I’m not advocating a green list vote everywhere. Certainly not South where they have possible constituency fights. Most likely tactical vote place is Lothian, Weej and Fife. I understand both perspectives but in certain regions like those I’m moving towards the split vote. And this analysis doesn’t present any of its obvious merits. That is bias. And not towards independence, towards the SNP. And I’m a member.
@IanB
She says her account was hacked and I believe her, it’s not her style. It was an animated image of an Asian child breakdancing.
@Jam
“I’d argue there is a small chance of a risk on the downside that SNP end up with 64 seats say but it’s pretty small.”
Yes, and the consequences are potentially disastrous for Indy. Don’t forget the likelihood is that the Presiding Office would be SNP, so that makes it 63.
The SNP need list seats.
A salient fact if it wasn’t for the SNP labour would never have offered the opportunity for a second referendum for the Scottish assembly, it was meant to kill the SNP dead, it didn’t.
What it showed Scotland is that the Labour Party following their bosses in Westminster had no vision for a new Scotland, they wanted the past, labour in power, occasionally in Westminster and always in Scotland.
The SNP showed that in coalition they were the competent side, so the electorate rewarded them with power alone.
The SNP engaged the nation, electrified the nation, gave us hope that we could control our own destiny. The referendum gave Scotland a beating heart and an incisive brain. We learned that Westminster political establishment consistently lied to us, hid our wealth for decades, that’s labour politicians. They wanted us as labour cannon fodder. Shut up vote labour as you have done for generations and we will ignore you.
The SNP changed that. Decades of labour in power in Scotland and Bathgate no more linwood no more Ravenscraig no more, labour failed Scotland for decades, they feathered their own nest, all the old socialist leaders sitting in the Lords wearing robes made of dead rats, milking the state, whilst destroying the poor, the disabled and pontificating over what powers to cut fro Scotland.
If it wasn’t for the SNP the greens couldn’t have ridden on their coattails and got the public attention.
Greens if labour get in power in Scotland again kiss you dreams goodbye, you’re tost, only an independent Scotland offers you the chance. Take trident labour will never get rid of it in Scotland never. Take renewables, you trust Westminster?
There is no point anymore, rise, socialist, green, mistakenly thinking they’re doing anything without a strong SNP government. If the Unionists win its over for you lot.
As for this new found embrace for new politics new powers. Remember they were the bribe to keep the union, then they were waterd down in Westminster.
So if you think you vote for another party either list or constituency will do anything other than kill the very thing you think you’re voting for, for goodness sake think.
Your time has passed, this election is to drive change forward not allow the unionist fringe to halt progress.
SNP X SNP you know it makes sence!
“He both was and was not an MP when he lied. He must be Schrodinger’s MP.”
Capella, have you considered Quantum Carmichael? Isn’t there a boson or something?
😎
OT Curran
Full article from the former paper that was The Herald on the former MP who was liked by nobody.
archive.is/orZTK
“In January, last year, Ms Curran, who was then shadow Scottish secretary and the MP for Glasgow East was targeted by an internet troll who tweeted “I pray she gets ebola”.
The troll called Mrs Curran a “f*****g dried up raisin” before making her vile remark about the deadly disease that killed thousands in West Africa.”
@yesindyref2
I don’t think they will need them actually. Think they’ll win about 70 plus constituencies but even if they win say 64 first seats there are some regions where they’ll pick up the list seats (where they lost the constituencies) like South and Highlands. it will get them over the line even if elsewhere everyone voted tactically on the list.
That won’t happen in some regions like North East but in Lothian, Fife and Weej people should. It’s worth a few seats for the greens with little chance of a loss. It’s that sort of relatively safe tactical vote in some regions that could make the greens, bigger than lib dems and not affect SNP majority.
A 10% green vote in these areas will mean green pick up 2 list seats on the list before SNP pick up any.
Jam says:
20 April, 2016 at 8:42 pm
Do you think that the 3 No commentators vs 1 Yes commentator would have increased pressure on it to change if the Greens became the 4th largest party at Holyrood?
Jam – You mean parties? IMO, the Conservative and UNIONIST party will never change. I can see them rebranding as the Unionist Party again. That is their core vote.
Labour doesn’t care about independence either. UK Labour still hopes that future Scottish Labour MP’s will help them get elected in future Westminster elections. Or at the very least, SNP MP’s could back them up.
The best that could happen is for Labour to split in two, with a breakaway Scottish Labour party supporting independence. The SNP could really have a challenge then.
I hope the Greens become the 4th party ahead of the Lib Dems, but not at the expense of an SNP majority. That is the priority right now. A pro-indy majority is more important than taking a risk on a more diverse parliament.
@ Tinto Chiel – I think of him more of a Quark, but spaghettified, having slipped over the event horizon into a deep black hole!
Jam
Of the 3 they lost, edinburgh south and orkney and shetland had particular extenuating circumstances that could easily be reversed.
How do you work that out?
If you really want an indepedent Scotland then vote (SNP SNP EU in) to get a party which will look after Scotland and its population no matter who or what you are.
After independence you can vote for whoever the hell you want because you will be living in a free country and it’s up to you how you live your life without interference from another country.
If you don’t give a sh&t about independence then go right ahead and vote for the Greens and all the other no hoper parties who are doing their best to fcuk up this election with their stupid nonsense about tactical voting.
I hope you can see the MSM pushing this agenda all the time now FFS.
They have managed to brush PFI away under the carpet and now Carmichael gets a clean bill of health from Westminster FFS
How stupid can you be.
SNP SNP EU in
O/T
Gary tank commander meets Nicola
link to facebook.com
And for any green supporters, I live in a loyalist stronghold, not a good idea to have one young girl walking alone round the streets handing out your leaflets.
My mate is nearly 7 feet and built like a brick shithouse, he was walking with his 5 year old daughter whe confronted by a yob demanding, well you know.
Not smart green!
@Jam “little chance of a loss”
That’s too much chance for me, when there’s no benefit for Independence.
We’re close, very close, maybe less than 5 years if you heard Sturgeon today. What on earth is the point in taking any chance of throwing that away, perhaps forever, just to get a few more non-Union MSPs elected to what could be Scotland’s last devolved Parliament anyway?
After Independence it’s open season on politics, and I don’t know where either of my votes are going. In general I dislike overall majority Government for Holyrood, I like minority Government and some concensus. But now is not the time, it needs an overall majority to tell Cameron / BoJo / Osborne “give us Indy ref 2 or you’ll be sorry”.
Capella: but…but…but… surely the black hole would have to be enormous, contradicting Einstein’s theory of relativity? Whatever happened to black dwarfs, or dwarves, even?
Oh, I see.
Ain’t quantum physics neither here nor there?
😉
Nope dont really care what you think little concern troll.
Apparently you
in your so impartial analysis
I suppose you’ve got to give the funders what they want to read.
Mate this aint the guardian i think you took a wrong turning somewhere while looking for organic bean munchers and saps to troll sorry but we are fresh out of them but you never know he might come back lol
50%OT
link to archive.is
“Nicola Sturgeon: I’d ‘very much’ like independence referendum in next five years”
To be honest I’ve found the Herald and Magnus Gardham’s coverage of the SNP greatly better than that of the Sunday Herald recently.
I can’t believe I said that 😳 ❓
That wis brilliant Nana…thanks for posting…but whit’s wae the subtitles! Is that fur the furriners! 😉
@DerekM
Aint DerekM? Are you English. The wurd is isnae Deek.
You’re too nice yesindyref2…can’t say that often enough 😉
Everyone knows people in Scotland/everwhere else too, uses the word Ain’t, Jam, whit’s yer point man? And even if Derek is English, whit’s that gotta tae dae wi the price o’ jam?
It ain’t got nuffink toooo doooo wif anyfink 😉
@Jam
I use “ain’t” all the time, and Sturgeon has used it as well, so I guess we’re not Scottish (I was born in Ayr – the old Heathfield):
““There will be no fracking in Scotland because there is a moratorium on fracking, that is what a moratorium means, it ain’t allowed to happen because we won’t take risks with our environment while there are so many unanswered questions.
“That is the responsible way of proceeding.””
@K1
Yeah. that’s what my wife says too.
Oh.
It’s cockney and only phannies say it.
I see Lesley Riddoch going to be writing in The National, saying why she will be voting Green on her list vote.
Her choice, but I don’t particularly want to read about. The Scotsman was going for the split vote, as was the DR, touting the Greens.
I think I’ll leave buying The National. Sad too, as it was launched at the SNP rally.
If you are RISE and have half a brain in your head, you will specifically target Labour voters. Because indy will give you a genuine chance to grow and be represented in Parliament. Trying to take on the SNP is NOT a good career move…
If you are GREEN and have half a brain in your head, you will specifically target Tory and Lib Dem voters. Because indy will give you a genuine chance to grow and be represented in Parliament. Trying to take on the SNP is NOT a good career move…
From my anecdotal evidence, I think the Conservatives may come second. The Conservative vote is holding quite firm in their strongholds, probably because the BBC have realised Dugdale is completely hopeless and it is better just not to show her at all, but big up ROOFIE.
On the other hand, Conservative voters may be more inclined to support the SNP as a second choice/list vote, to avoid Labour winning a list vote in a strong Tory seat, for example. SNP also wins with some Conservative voters for (1) record of good government (2) good candidates liked personally.
Labour seemed to have vanished into that black hole we keep hearing about. One SNP voter did tell me that he was canvassed by a Red Tory, so they are not completely extinct (although this one was sent packing with a few choice Scots words, the voter laughed, so they may indeed already have gone the way of the Dodo).
Personally, I would like to see Tommy Sheridan get in on a Glasgow list seat, Andy Wightman and Jean Urquhart are other assets who help to make Scotland such a great place. But I agree with everyone else: the goal is indy and the way we get that is #BothVotesSNP.
In a way, it is nice to be spoilt politically and have such great talent — Colin Fox, Maggie Kirkpatrick, Patrick Harvie, Cat Boyd… But let all this talent come together to see off the real obstacles to their careers: the three Westminster parties, whose headquarters are in another country (can you imagine a Belgian election being contested by three parties based in Holland?!?).
Know what? I’m just going to state the obvious.
If the Scottish electorate want Independence it will give them a majority right now in 2016. If it doesn’t then listen to that message.
FFS People we will be Independent when a majority of Scots decide that is what they want. They will have to vote for it. Get Real.
“How often have we thought about the soil beneath our feet? It’s a much ignored resource”.
As is the SNP manifesto on Scotland 2016!
Jackie Bird once again begins a news bulletin that leads with a relatively positive SNP story with an audible sigh. Does she even realise she’s doing it?
BBC Scotland 2016.
Don’t watch it but checked it out just there.
Tonight’s show
1. Scotland loses jobs while rUK loses none.
2. Clinton and Trump
3. Something about the ground beneath your feet.
You’re all deluded. There was no manifesto launch today. You’re all bewitched, controlled by the evil Sturgeonator.
Will the SNP react to this? Surely.
Gfaetheblock says:
Lesley Riddoch is giving list vote to greens
thats because she lives in the fife&min region, same as me
@katherine hamilton “Will the SNP react to this? Surely.
I hope not. I daresay any non-committed people watching the program would be asking themselves the same question.
“… regarded the SNP with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against themselves.” (War of the Best of Both Worlds 2016)
Andy Wightman is second on the Lothian list so they would have to get 2 list seats in Lothian for him to get in. But I don’t like the first so I have no problem voting SNPx2 as per my priorities.
They may pick up some of Margo’s vote, but Margo ran as the Margo Party. Her name was not hidden away on a list on another piece of paper.
Anyway Andy Wightman does not need to be an MSP to be consulted by the Scottish Government for his expertise in land reform.
Forgot to add this is not bias, it’s censorship.
I suspect a deal has been concocted between the Tories and Lib/Dem’s at Westminster. The path to the Upper House is now clear of any obstacles to his elevation. He will most likely retire from mainstream politics. The subsequent by-election would be an interesting test of public opinion mid way through the next 4 years.
Wullie Rennie being evasive on every question and trashed by Bernard Ponsonby.
He can’t seem to believe he is getting asked hard questions …not used to it, clearly.
If only these chancers were held to account more often by the media…you can but dream.
Kenny, can you explain to me why you or anyone would claim that Colin Fox or Cat Boyd were great talents? A couple of people have said that on here and I don’t get it.
I’m not simply out to criticise them, I’d rather not think about them at all, but people keep saying they are great.
Fox has been rejected so many times; he did well to choose that recycling logo, I’ll grant that much.
Cat Boyd is just a vaguely pretty face. If she’s radical it’s from a bland middle class standpoint.
Willie Rennie what a scream
Never laughed so much for a Long time
Does he ever say a sentance without mentioning snpbad or education
“I suppose your going to quote me bernard” was his response to some of his lies
Well worth a watch as he is put on the spot a few times
Schrodingers cat
Mrs D lives in fife and is voting SNP twice same as me.
Rennie’s only work for indigestion.
Bernard on top form, genuine passion, good to great questioning. Even forces a SNP good from wee willie!
Remembering he used to show that passion often, hope he keeps it up!
Poor wee Willie, almost felt sorry for him, not cut out for actual questions. His answer of the bedroom tax as being the biggest lie to the electorate was priceless!
Rennie is, without any doubt, the Clown Prince of Scottish public life.
He’s like Laurel and Hardy in the one body: ‘Well, that’s another fine mess I’ve gotten myself into…’
Neocon- I am with you on the Cat Boyd thing. I think she is good but hardly the great mind of the 21st century. Not sure she is any better than your average student leftie campaigner.
Anyobody that is with Neojobby on anything really needs to take a good look at themselves.
Brian Powell at 10.27
I really can’t see why a person writing in the National expressing her personal choice to vote Green on the list is any reason to stop taking the National. Cat Boyd expressed her support for RISE on the list vote. The National is not an SNP pamphlet. It is a newspaper and it reflects a wide variety of views. It has had a lot of “both votes SNP stuff” in it and very strong coverage of Nicola Sturgeon recently. Will Greens or RISE supporters stop buying because of that?
@ Nana Gary tank com Glenn Campbell better watch oot, ah better interviewers on the job lol
Yesindyref2
That was weird, I could hear Richard Burtons voice in my head, as I read that, then the dum dum dum tune, that’s me sleeping with the lights on!
just remember to SNPeez on a yooon, they have no resistance!
I’ll get ma jacket!
Both vote SNP stop the imperial menace!
@heedtracker
Well In Northern Isles was the carmichael effect and in edinburgh south the Paco Mcsheepie incident. I’m no judging it just saying it had an effect. The carmichael effect could now work against the Lib dems that’s all. Anecdotal evidence suggests very close in Shetland with possible SNP ahead. Hope so.
That couple with overall 4% rise say since general election 2015 if it materialises could reverse all 3. that is my point.
Of course it may not. but it may. I’d give SNP take the lot about a 25% chance on the constituency. It’s possible. Biggest obstacle is probably Orkney and Dumfriesshire.
Cat Boyd is very good. But not very wise. She should be in the SNP.
It should never be forgotten that the SNP was formed in 1934 by the union of a right wing party (The Scottish Party – The Duke of Montrose, Sir Compton Mckenzie etc) and a left wing party ( Cunninhame-Graham, Hugh MacDiarmid etc and some Liberals (Johnny Bannerman) to be a national movement with all shades of political opinion united in a campaign for Scottish Independence. The YES campaign became that. The SNP should be that.
Ian Brotherhood reference stooshie at hustings in Ardrossan.A gentleman of Rise persuasion made a spirited and loud protest at start about non involvement of a Rise participant.He was loud and a tad abusive to the chair but I must admit his ejection was a bit o/t and uncalled for and rather more physical than warranted.
Needless to say Kenneth Gibson the SNP candidate who actually is the only one who lives in the constituency romped home against the slab candidate who is the secretary of Peckham labour and on the English labour nec look rather pedestrian as she read off notes all evening.
The Willie Rennie interview on Scotland Tonight. Never laughed so much since, since the interview with David Coburn. Bernard, why are you making it so hard for these people?
Come on guys.Fair play.Willie Rennie maybe comes over as a bit of a dopey dinah.A bit of a silly billy.Some might even believe him to be a nincompoop.A buffoon.A blathering idiot.But he’s the leader of the Scottish Libdems in Holyrood and he’s there on merit.He’s the best they’ve got.So let’s give him the respect he deserves.Which is considerably more than surely any of us would afford the leader of the Scottish Libdems in Westminster.
Jam says:
20 April, 2016 at 11:37 pm
@heedtracker
Are you SNP member that vote NO Jam? No judgement, just curious, be great to hear the how and why, and if you are, what might sway you to YES?
It looks the SNP are gradualists now, building up core belief in Scotland that actually have a Holyrood that’s got the competence, ability and drive to govern a nation state of Scotland.
That’s what I be doing now if I was the boss. Although we all know our noble BBC led media will fight all of the above hand in hand in with the red and blue tories, all the way to independence day.
mealer @ 12.01
Ha ha. Vote SNP x 2 and EU In.
Brilliant manifesto from SNP.
You have to hand it to them for cheek though
They’re going to vote for themselves twice but want SNP voters to lend them one of their votes because, we once voted the same as you and that makes us the same (pinky in dimpled chin smiling)
Aye right! Away and take a flying you know what to yourselves
I don’t know why I’m bothered right enough, they’ll all fall out with each other before the election anyway
Sumdy’ll no be radicul anuff
No complaints now they’ll have to get used to it just the same as us Natsi Tartan Tory Extremist Splitters
@schrodingers cat
I live in Fife and I am giving both of my votes to the SNP!
Don’t trust the Greens! Several doorsteps last night (Tuesday) had SNP first vote and Greens as second so had work to do trying to convince otherwise – not sure it worked. Had one Green/Green who had voted NO and still of that persuasion so don’t trust them.
Then we had the fun of some old Yoon calling on Glasgow’s finest to stop us chappin on folks’ doors. The Pleece (LibDem speak) weren’t very aware of canvassing in progress. They asked if we would be going out again – yes! teams out a couple of times a day, and where would we be going – all over a large, city constituency and every other constituency in Scotland. Oh, they said, we better pass on the information to our colleagues in case we get similar calls. We did mention there was an election in a couple of weeks’ time but that seemed to go over their heads.
Must go and look out the bunting now, to have it ready for Auntie Lizzy’s birthday bash tomorrow (at least the BBC will have something meaningful to report on tomorrow compared with today’s news of a football manager getting his jotters and some wee political event not worth bothering about).
Okay, so here is the first Cat Boyd video I found. This is dire. I’m not saying I think this is dire. I’m saying that there is such a thing as an objective reality and, in that objective reality, this is categorised as dire.
link to m.youtube.com
Dire. On about 5 levels.
The only aspect that is just okay is the wee animated intro. In fact, even that’s being generous.
People on this website who praise this must have an agenda.
Nearly caught up with all the news where we are now and have downloaded the SNP manifesto. Heartened by general reaction and all the positive comments on the threads.
Here’s a couple of stories… both clutching at straws. 🙂
Not much charity to be found below in the comments either.
———————————————————–
Scott Macnab: It’s not all over quite yet for Labour
link to archive.is
———————————————————
David Steel: We need Liberalism now more than ever
link to archive.is
SNP x 2
@JaMur @ 8:20 pm ~
Aweright. Aye, usually the go article gets released around about the time the perks get delivered to your door.. SO stay tuned all.
ps looking forward to looking out for all of dem ‘Wings carrier bags’ circulating the streets of Scotland. Send in your best photos!
And there we have it.
Question – When is a MP not a MP.
Answer – When his name is Alistair Pinocchio Carmichael.
WTF
Vote SNP to Infinity and Beyond!
Indeed dude, the clue lies in the
questionanswer 🙂1) Both votes
2) Two times
What they say.
@Nana
Gary Tank Commander and the FM – Superb! 😀 LOL
Be nice to drop a few pearls of wisdom, but I truth is I don’t know enough about RISE to forward any valid comments. The only thing they appear to threaten is the SNP’s outright majority. Essentially, RISE was primed to launch itself a more radical left wing influence in Scottish politics in a post-YES Scotland, except we never crossed that threshold.
Seems to me we are dealing with disparate progressive voices in Scotland collectively frustrated by the massive opportunity we all missed in 2014. It’s not sinister or malign, it’s the same coalition of common purpose, just currently without the glue of that common purpose.
I’m not declaring myself a RISE supporter, but I don’t think the SNP’s attitude towards RISE is resonating. Yes, I can see some potential risks to an SNP outright majority, but I’m not so sure that that disaster, in the unlikely event it happens, represents the end of Indyref 2. It isn’t the end, it’s just something more to deal with.
I will be voting SNP twice, and I expect a large sector of “RISE” people will do likewise, unless that is the SNP rhetoric gives them a reason not to. That situation seems to be in the balance quite frankly.
I’m not won over by RISE or the Greens, but I’m not bowled over by the SNP’s manifesto either. It’s ok, bit soft on a second referendum but there’s logic in that, but it’s pretty pitiful and niaive in its reaction to the BBC. Devolved BBC is still BBC, and toxic to Scotland’s interests. There are other areas of screaming hypocrisy, but that hypocrisy has a narrow perspective based upon personal experience. I can keep taking the tablets and counting to 10, but when something really tries my patience, something’s gonna blow.
I kinda find myself in an awkward place where nobody is reaching out to me. I do not consider myself radical, but at the same time, I find the SNP’s manifesto…. uninspiring.
I know where the SNP is coming from; softly, softly, don’t scare the horses, deliver good government, build trust… I see that. But what I feel is lacking is potency in the SNP’s reaction to the hostile media. I am left to presume the SNP strategy is to give the media enough rope to hang itself. That might work for us Independentists who already see the media as discredited, but I don’t believe for a minute that policy is going to deliver any change, or put an end to the wall to wall propaganda. There won’t be any change while there is nothing to change to.
Be careful SNP. When you attack RISE or the Greens, you are going hard on YES voters who will hold their nose and vote SNP for the sake of Scotland, but yet it seems you’ve no powder in your musket for the real enemies of democracy; the cynical media propagandists currently running amok and unchecked, manipulating our political landscape. Don’t they threaten an SNP majority with a little more potency than RISE does even on a good day?
Poor Kezia. i noticed a snippet of her on the telly last night.
I see she has resorted to using that truly dreadful and meaningless cliche interminably cited by the rottweiler, John Reid, ‘We must redouble our efforts.’
Honestly, there has been so much ‘redoubling’ going on over the years that we must have reached the nineteen eighties by now surely?
Lord David Steel says Scotland needs a strong Liberal force more than ever. “by Liberal I mean a generosity of spirit, a tolerance of others, a commitment to the rule of law, a high ideal of the worth and dignity of man.”
Two words for his Lordship, Alistair Carmichael.
O/T links
link to indyref2.scot
link to fionamoraggrahame.wordpress.com
link to magnusjamieson.wordpress.com
secret government plan to charge disabled
link to archive.is
O/T
Sky news & Dez Holmes Its the queens 90th birthday, & here’s Amy with the royal weather.
At some point in the day am gon fur ah rite royal S+++,its the licourarse that diz it.
Excellent post Breeks… my sentiments exactly. I understand the SNP position/ strategy but why cant they be radical on at least one thing – BBC maybe but certainly land reform – with 200 potential votes owning 50% of Scotland why worry about being too radical?
Lord Steel? What’s that all about in the 21st century? Why on earth do we still have Lords? How can you believe in the dignity of man if you accept the title of “Lord”.
O/T links
Saudi Arabia has paid for nearly a dozen Tory MPs to fly out and visit on ‘fact-finding missions’
link to archive.is
link to tompride.wordpress.com
link to thecanary.co
link to theintercept.com
Dont trust the Greens on Referendum II or independence.
I have not yet met a Green activist who is any way passionate about either.
I have known Andy Wightman, a high profile Green candidate for nigh on 30 years and I have never heard him voice support for independence.
Indeed the last time I heard about him he was doing work for Labour MP and mysoginist, Ian Davidson.
Breeks
I don’t think the SNP are attacking the other independence supporting Party’s.
From Nicola yesterday,” One of the things I really enjoyed about the referendum campaign was working with others in different parties and working with people in no political party. So I will work with others across Scotland to build that case for indepenence”.
O/T links
School-closures-construction-fault-could-have-killed-kids
link to archive.is
Tories and slab u-turn
link to snp-falkirk.co.uk
link to theintercept.com
Senator calls for 9/11 enquiry
link to youtube.com
NCN earlier this morning.
Just watched it and you are correct.No amount of face palms to cover up the cringe.Much bluster around the inequalities of pay…she does realise who bankrolls the National ffs?
It’s all so depressing,we can address these issues when we’re independent.The political classes are chattering amongst themselves,and she is simply background noise.We know these things and will sort it out when we as a country hopefully adopt a more Scandic approach to business.
SNP x 2
@@heedtracker
Did I vote NO???? Shut up. I voted yes. Been a member of SNP since 90s. I think in some regions the list vote for SNP is likely to be wasted including Lothian, Fife and Weej. That is all. I don’t think if you vote SNP on the list especially in these regions you’ll get them. I think you’ll get a Unionist as a result.
In South Scotland SNP on the list is the correct vote though. And Highlands is anyone’s guess so probably SNP there to err on the side of caution. And I don’t care about being an SNP member and advocating a cautious region dependent Green on list vote as it will stop a nawbag in some places and that’s fine by me.
NeoconNat
Honk, honk. You’re a right disruptive wank. Well, you’re certainly not a good guy.
Still think I’m a racist? Are you still a prospective Tory Councillor? Nothing better to do than troll this website?
@ Nana 7.40
Unbelievable (or maybe not) links. Here’s another one I came across:
link to belfasttelegraph.co.uk
hope I’ve linked that properly.
Thanks for the gary tank commander link – priceless!
Achnababan 7.36,
The reason for the less than radical pace on Land Reform by the SNP is legal challenge.They don’t want land reform to be bogged down in the courts for years with no progress being made.Land reform is a process rather than an event.We’ve made good progress on access to land.Before we can do anything serious about ownership we have to establish exactly who owns what.This is currently in hand.
@Almannysbunnet
Lord David Steel reckons we need the Libdems does he? He reckons we need politicians and politics practiced the way its always been then. I mean that appears to be the logic of his argument. And the difference between the LIbdems and the others is what at this point?
Near as I can see, the Libdems don’t stand for anything today, so basically they lie down for everything. I think their only function over recent years has been to act as enablers for the other two basically. Whenever one or the other needed a little more welly in chamber to form a government, push through legislation or generally jump a queue, the Libdems were always there to help out in exchange for a wee bit of limelight or relevance.
If nothing else came out of May 5th this year, seeing those lying, treacherous sell outs removed entirely from Scottish politics would do me.
CameronB, good morning. Sorry if it upsets you that I disagree with the people on here who keep telling us Cat Boyd is a class act. She’s an okay act who means well and has room for improvement.
Watch the video I posted above and tell me there’s coherence there. If I need to point out the six contradictions in that video that I spotted, I will.
This is what you want to split the vote for?
The thought of these people holding the Scottish government to ransom for the next few years, attacking us and sniping alongside Kezia and the rest, and getting all sorts of BBC attention in doing so, should be enough to keep more than me awake.
This is serious.
Land Reform is a red herring. It is not land reform that is the problem it is tax evasion. The Scottish Gov can’t buy up all the land. It would be unaffordable. The land is in few hands because Scotland was depopulated by Westminster policy. If the population increases the land would come back into public use. It. Is supply and demand.
Most landowners and farmers have no money. They have land but no money. The land is held by the banks. The landowners would be delighted to sell the land. They mortgage the land to the banks to get money to live on. A good lifestyle but no money.
There is no tax on land to keep farms together. Larger farms produce more. Much of the land in Scotland is difficult to cultivate hills and climate etc. A tax on land could put up house and food prices and damage exports. In some countries milk farmers are diversifying milk products. Powdered milk is being exported.
Land costs £5000 an acre and anyone can buy it. They can’t put a hut on it because of Scottish planning laws. If land is needed for public use it can be compulsory purchased. Scotland has a ‘right to roam’, for a small cost people can access the land. B & B or bunk house.
Why there is such an hysteria over land. The ‘right to property’ is enshrined in the Human rights Act. Affordable homes is a matter for Gov policy. The Scottish Gov is building 6000 houses a year and private sector 11,000 houses = 17,000 houses + the houses that come on the market. Within five years everyone could be adequately housed.
The council tax only collects 15% of revenues. People know what it is when they get a house approx £20 a week. Those who can’t afford it get a rebate. Students do not pay. Most people are bothered about Councils wasting it. Not about paying it. More tiers could be put in for higher value property.
The Greens are always protesting about land being brought back into public use, colluding with landowners and wasting £Million/Billion of public money. In the NE they are a menace. Stopped essential road and infrastructure. Along with the Unionists refused a Gift of £80Million to predestrianise the City, Stopped the AWPR for 30 years. They are building a carbuncle costing £Millions in the City Centre. PPI. Don crossing now late and overbudget.
The Liberals were supposed to support Home Rule. The LibDem liars reneged.
Can anyone imagine an election in the irish republic, being contested by three parties based in london. Or a westminster controlled irish msm constantly belittling and demeaning them and their country. Only in scotland.
For those “holding their noses” and voting for the SNP until we are free. Who are you going to vote for after independence? Who are you going to trust to run a free Scotland?
The talent pool is pretty damn slim outside of the SNP and when our SNP MP’s vacate Westminster and head back north the talent pool of the SNP will be greatly enhanced. They won’t all stay in politics, I suspect Philippa Whitford will return to her old job as a surgeon and who would begrudge her that. A few others might struggle to be reselected but on the whole a talented bunch who I would trust to steer Scotland into a new era.
Nah no holding my nose. I stand proud to vote for the SNP and see nothing on the horizon to change my mind.
NeoconNat
I’ll not be watching the video as I don’t have unlimited t’internet but I do think the situation we find ourselves in, a bit sad…..splitters! A situation I believe you are seeking to exploit, to the detriment of Scotland’s self determination.
Still think I’m a racist because I object to Islamist sectarianism?
@Liz Rannoch. Below is part of an email I received yesterday. The whole message is too long to post. There is info available on the CAAT website.
Our new report * exposes how the UK continued to provide Saudi Arabia with weapons for its devastating bombing of Yemen throughout 2015, despite repeated violations of international law.
More than 3000 civilians have been killed by the fighting in Yemen, including 900 children. The bombing has created a humanitarian emergency comparable in scale to that in Syria: each day 28 more children are dying from preventable diseases as a result of the conflict.
UK government support has fuelled the crisis: UK-made aircraft, bombs and missiles have been used in the bombing and the government continues to offer training and support to the Saudi regime.
Leading human rights organisations have documented a huge number of violations of international law committed by the Saudi-led coalition with UK arms directly implicated in civilian deaths. Yet, the UK government’s response has been to actually accelerate the delivery of bombs for use in Yemen.
* link to caat.org.uk
Just saw reporting Scotland doing RISE manifesto from indyref2.scot. It’s really quite funny and sad at the same time.
Can’t get the Gary Tank Commander thing to play.
Don’t tell me I have to load the BBC I player App again… Tablet felt unclean.
@Breeks try this
link to twitter.com
P.S. I appreciate you are having a pop at RISE, on this occasion, but I’m afraid I simply don’t trust you and question your motives.
Only watched a little bit of Wee Willie getting skewered by Bernard.
It was quite funny, as the body language was so obvious. Bernard leaning forward, and Willie squeezing himself against the back of the chair, with round, startled eyes.
I suppose you’re going to quote me, Bernard.
What a line.
Almannysbunnet says:
“Who are you going to vote for after independence? Who are you going to trust to run a free Scotland?”
I guarantee the SNP my vote(s) in the first post Indy election.
When they manage to deliver Indy, which will be a massive achievement, they deserve ‘first go’ at running the country.
4-5 years after Indy I will look at what other parties offer with an open mind. By then it should be clear who and what those other parties actually are.
CameronB, I’ve heard a few people in here talking like you do about conspiracies and suggesting I am here with a secret agenda.
It’s ridiculous. Let me apply some cold reason to that idea for two seconds and then we can all move on.
First of all, if I was here to manipulate anybody, I wouldn’t be any good at it. I’m probably the most mistrusted and cantankerous poster on here. In short, I have won over nobody and I have no supporters whatsoever. Even if it was true that I worked for the Tories, I have failed dismally.
Secondly, I’m not advising that anyone splits their vote. This is the one thing I have been consistent on. By all means check or save yourself some time and don’t bother. I have continually argued for SNP x 2. That’s what I am doing now. I must be a very odd conservative agent to do that.
Apply the above to others on here who have won several people over with their pleasant natures and altruistic arguments. Many here want to split the vote, openly so. I think that’s potentially very dangerous for the independence movement (and the SNP).
As I said, we are potentially heading for a constitutional crisis this summer over Europe. Those who want to split the vote seem to want to send the SNP into the crisis in a weakened state. Our independence could hinge on all this.
Now I might and I might not be able to accept all that if we were splitting the vote for someone who was without doubt a very effective alternative voice to the SNP, but Cat Boyd, Loki, and Colin Fox don’t come close.
Can I suggest to all of you that this being the Internet (where nobody’s identity is entirely certain) that you start judging people by what they actually say?
There are dark forces at work on here for sure, and I think they have an agenda to split the SNP vote, but don’t take my word for it. I’m the least credible voice on here.
Watch the words closely and leave the voodoo to others.
Jam says: wasted list vote
In a way you are right – if the SNP get all the constituencies its possible the list votes may not get another MSP. And that is a possibility in some regions.
But you have to know that the SNP get all the constituencies BEFORE you cast your list vote – to make an effective tactical list vote – and that is not possible.
If the SNP lose just one constituency in a region they are likely to pick up at least one list seat given the current level of voting intentions.
So vote for what you believe – trying to tactical vote with the list system is not a winning game.
Laughing at guy on phone in, saying he nearly ran the car off the road, he was so beeling at the bowing and scraping to Betty.
That old nugget about them being good for tourism is being trotted out.
NeoconNat says
It probably starts at your monicur, nothing good comes out of neocon, unless you’re a neocon, like say David Cameron’s dad, neocon grandad up in heaven now, telling neoconGod how he was never going to pay all those bally taxes, for all those idle plebs schools, hospitals, freebies and handouts…
While I welcome the rise of new independence supporting parties which will attract voter who will never vote for the SNP.
For those parties to target and ask SNP voters to split their vote will undermine the only vehicle that can achieve the objective of independence and that is the SNP.
I have never supported nor indulged in tactical voting, because you can never bank on what the electorate will do.
I cannot stress this enough, if you want another chance of having a vote on Scotland’s Independence, you have to use both votes for the SNP.
Anything else is effectively Russian roulette, which could kill IndyRef2 stone dead.
Believe me, it is not worth the risk.
SNP x 2.
NeoconNat
Believe me, I’m watching what you say.
As far as I understand things, there may be a cases for giving the second vote to an independence supporting party, other than the SNP. The south and the Highlands, for example. I’m no psephologist though.
I have already given you too much oxygen.
Heedtracker, if I wanted to manipulate people I would change my name. I’d possibly even consider being less of a bastard. Where’s the fun in that?
CameronB Brodie at 9.53
Boring
@Ken500 8.49am
Great comment Ken. The Greens know all this and the truth about the moratorium on fracking.
Why keep pushing and complaining about them, when they know that there is no other alternative.
Why? Because they are anti SNP, that’s why!
NeoconNat says:
21 April, 2016 at 10:10 am
Heedtracker, if I wanted to manipulate people I would change my name. I’d possibly even consider being less of a bastard. Where’s the fun in that?
The fun bit is watching you try to make WoS btl look ridiculous. You’re a couple of years too late but good luck with it anyway.
I’m saying you’re a couple of years too late because as the polls show, everyone who cares now knows exactly what UKOK bullshitters look like.
Dave McEwan Hill
You what? My line of argument or my desire not to provide aid and assistance to someone I suspect as having a hidden agenda? 😉
Dave McEwan Hill
P.S. At least I didn’t question the semiotics of a Tory supporting Scottish independence. 🙂
@NeoconNat: “There are dark forces at work on here for sure, and I think they have an agenda to split the SNP vote”
Now let me see, what’s a good way of sticking a wedge in-between Indy supporters, say like me and shrodingers cat who disagree about something like the benefits of tactical voting?
Oh I know, I’ll watch how many are on the side of whom, and I’ll say that I’m suspicious of the motives of yesindyref2 or cat, whichever is the straggler.
Then on another subject that comes up, I’ll do something similar. All the time probably picking the mainline so people thing I’m straight even if a bit eccentric.
Before you know it, there’s one straggler after another picked off and isolated, and since people have different views on most things, the sum of all the stragglers is nearly 100%.
So everyone’s at each others throats, and I’ve destroyed a forum.
Job done.
@ Cameron
You’ve got it back to front about South of Scotland and Highlands and Islands – those are the regions where even Schrodinger’s cat recommends SNP x 2.
I happen not to believe that tactical voting would work anywhere except by fluke, though of course anyone who principally supports a smaller party which is not standing in their constituency should vote for them on the list – it’s the only opportunity.
The Greens’ commitment to indyref2 may be lukewarm, but I’m not sure it’s any cooler than the vague “material change” stuff from the SNP manifesto. Agree with your other points, though.
Re Carmichael getting off ScotFree,Tam Jardine said at 9:15 pm yesterday:-
“Re the Carmichael whitewash- so the matter is not a parliamentary standards issue apparently. How that can be so when Carmichael was still acting as Secretary of State for Scotland is beyond me.”
Exactly—he was Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Scotland when this leak/Frenchgate ocurred,and if there was a national emergency for example—-he would,as one of Her Majesty’s Cabinet Minister scuttled down to the Cabinet Room at No 10.
I will REPEAT ——Carmichael was HOLDING the position,AND Her Majesty’s Great Seal of State as Secretary of State for Scotland—-in the British Cabinet.
It couldn’t be clearer.
This whole Carmichael/Frenchgate/”outside my remit” affair STINKS,STINKS AND STINKS TO THE HIGH HEAVENS!
The extracts I posted earlier show just how narrow a remit his case was judged under. In fact the person making the judgement went as far as to question the apparent loophole. I think her situation was being restricted to only judging the actions of sitting MPs rather than Ministers. It’s like trying to grab a mud covered pig with Carmichael. They both have a tendency to slip out of your grasp.
link to gov.uk
1.3 It is not the role of the Cabinet Secretary or other officials
to enforce the Code. If there is an allegation about a breach of
the Code, and the Prime Minister, having consulted the Cabinet
Secretary feels that it warrants further investigation, he will refer
the matter to the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests.
In other words it’s up to the PM to decide if he should be investigated.
Same as an obvious breaking of the Official Secrets Act doesn’t automatically lead to a prosecution.
Standards probe, who needs standards.
Vile man, vile government.
link to archive.is
crazycat
Oops. Thanks for the correction. I also reckon forecasting the result of tactile voting, is akin to playing darts while wearing a blindfold.
I will be giving both my votes to the SNP, btw, even though I live in Edinburgh.
Why does Nicola not sue Carmichael for deformation of character ?she could enlist the help of the French ambassador
My point was that Carmichael hasn’t actually been investigated by the right person. Hence the whole thing about him not being an MP at the time. The Code of Conduct he should have been investigated under is not the one he was technically not in breech of.
link to gov.uk
h. Ministers in the House of Commons must keep
separate their roles as Minister and constituency
Member;
i. Ministers must not use government resources for
Party political purposes; and
j. Ministers must uphold the political impartiality of
the Civil Service and not ask civil servants to act in any
way which would conflict with the Civil Service Code as
set out in the Constitutional Reform and Governance
Act 2010.
To repeat it’s up to David Cameron, the PM, to decide whether Carmichael should be investigated. I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for it though.
Indyref2, because nobody trusts or even likes me, I’m probably the most reliable and impartial voice on here. I’m very easy to disregard. By all means do that.
I don’t think your system of creating division would work as suggested though. People generally don’t hold grudges so that there’s no prospect of anyone fomenting the sort of lasting division and bad feeling your system depends upon.
What you’re proposing is a sort of layman’s understanding of divide and rule whereby you divide a given community into a thousand pieces and dominate. It isn’t very practicable and has obvious structural problems.
A much better approach would be to choose one highly divisive and emotive issue and keep hammering it over and over again.
Paranoia can be crippling and I wouldn’t recommend looking for conspiracies.
“Everything that happens happens as it should, and if you observe carefully, you will find this to be so.”
I’m surprised at the number of comments using fear tactics: both votes SNP or they’ll lose a majority…
Surely that wont work on Yes voters
Pin, stop being stupid. They don’t have a majority to lose in an election; they either achieve one or they don’t.
And it isn’t fear tactics to state the obvious: if the SNP don’t get enough votes to win a majority because people split their votes, that could have major, negative implications.
The election system is too weird for making second guesses and tactical voting. The only rational option for those hoping the SNP achieve a majority is to give them both votes.
Falkirk herald spreading the ERS pish now..
link to m.falkirkherald.co.uk
Not that i buy the local rag…!
Here’s the ‘archive.is’ link for the Falkirk herald story:-
link to archive.is