Brooks Was Here
As we write this, Boris Johnson’s new Brexit deal appears to hang in the balance. According to Sky News this morning the arithmetic is poised on a knife-edge.
The four “in play” groups down the middle of the graphic are, from the top: three Tory “Spartans” (hardcore Brexiters who might yet back the deal), 19 Labour MPs who’ve suggested they might do so for various reasons, 20 former-Tory “rebels” who had the whip removed by Johnson for voting to block no-deal, and 14 independents, mainly from the “Change UK” wing or whatever they’re called this week.
The government needs 36 of the 56 to vote with it to get the deal through, and can probably count on most of the 20 former Tories. Labour sources are suggesting, quite plausibly, that double-figure numbers of their 19 will also back the deal. So it’s close.
If it passes, England and Wales will get what they voted for (Brexit), Northern Ireland will – after a fashion – get what it voted for (effectively staying in the EU), and Scotland will get shafted. It’ll be placed at a significant economic disadvantage to NI, at a likely severe cost in jobs and investment. The nation which voted the most decisively on Brexit (for either option) will be the only one not to get its democratic wishes respected.
And slightly surprisingly, the whole UK thinks that’s unfair.
We polled in England, Scotland and Wales last week, and got this result:
There was of course no great surprise that Scottish voters felt that a change as big as Brexit should be backed by a four-way lock, with every nation of the UK having to vote for it – not just the UK as a whole, as Unionists endlessly shriek.
But we were quite startled that Leave-voting Wales and, even more so, England, both agreed by clear margins (22 points and 8 points respectively) that it wasn’t right for any of the UK’s supposed equal partners to be taken out against their will.
And while Leave voters were predictably opposed to the idea, almost 40% of them still also thought that each UK nation should have a veto.
As did nearly a third of Scottish Tories.
(Interestingly, the number for Tories UK-wide was noticeably higher at 39%. Scottish Tories are LESS keen on Scotland being treated with respect than English ones are.)
Scotland is NOT a member of a union. It is in all practical senses England’s prisoner, forced by the chains of numbers to do whatever England wants. Not even the voters of England think that’s right. But sadly 55% of Scots, when shown an open door, voted in 2014 to stay in their cells for fear of the outside world.
With the SNP apparently content to sit tight, roll the dice and hope that some sort of favourable outcome miraculously lands in their laps, we may be only a few days from learning the full consequences of our subservience.
Doubt it’ll get thru. Gut feeling.
Ouucchh but sadly do true.
Disappointment does cover my feelings
Yeah, Scotland will get the shitty end of thd stick again, but as long as we fight fair with ethics and morality we should be fine.
Nooo don’t believe it , most in England don’t care enough about all countries getting what they want.
Your 1007 people. . Who are they where are they , we never will know.
Oh seriously fuck off with the “I don’t believe polls!” shit.
It’s depressing as f*ck.
The question you keep presenting folks with about voting for the deal to enable a section 30 is too challenging. Folk would rather hope for fairies or invisible warriors to get us out of this predicament.
I’m so scunnered. I’m struggling to see where the next step is and fear we are going to fall down into the cellar.
Gone past the point of hoping there is a plan…
Subservience.
Let it play out. Look at the EU ignoring Catalonia and imagine a good old UDI – the EU will tolerate violence for the ‘state’ that wants to control a ‘group’.
We do it the ‘sane way’, then demand it. Then courts.
The courts (once we’re out of EU) can act on the mandate WE the Scottish public gave them.
Or a GE can provide a more ‘straight’ mandate if it comes.
“With the SNP apparently content to sit tight”. Apparently is the keyword here.
Possibly sitting tight is exactly what the SNP want them to think. The polls have not yet shown a seismic shift to indy (me ,Neither). If we called indyref 2 and lost – the consequences are too horrific to contemplate.
The BBC will lie during indyref2 – they have nothing to lose. And the feart will remain so.
I would sue the BBC for billions (organization, governors and reporting staff) after their next lie. And I would scare the bejasus out of folk who think it will be ok to vote no twice.
Fearties pay no attention to positive cases.
“If we called indyref 2 and lost – the consequences are too horrific to contemplate.”
More horrific than the consequences of not calling it?
So N Ireland which is in effect part of England gets special treatment whilst the co signatory to the Treaty of Union gets zilch. Helping themselves again.
We need our bloody head looked at.
It doesn’t surprise me, but it is good to know that it is still the case after these years of Brexit panic, that the English are still quite a fair people. And the 4 way lock also fits with the “We want Brexit even if it kills off the Union”, in a strange sort of way.
All democrats believe that people must get what they vote for. If you don’t accept that, you’re not a democrat. And if you’re not a democrat you’re a fascist.
In 2014 the majority voted to stay in the union. We all know why – lying and cheating, a hostile MSM and bent referees etc. The next time the vote happens we want the majority to agree that independence is far preferable to staying in this rotten union.
That is what the SNP are doing. When we get out of prison we will have a million things to do to make Scotland a better nation. But first we need to motivate people to get involved.
BTW there are huge numbers marching in Catalonia ATM. They are converging on Barcelona. Where were they last week? What were they dong last week? It took a catalyst of a corrupt court decision to get people out on the street. The prompt for action can come from anywhere at anytime. Instead of wallowing in gloom, we have to be ready to go when the time is right.
link to twitter.com
As the SNP won’t listen to complaints about them failing to do their job in defending and asserting Scottish sovereignty, there are two options:
1. Imitate the SNP: Keep repeating ourselves in the hope that one day they (the SNP) will listen and assert sovereignty instead of s30 begging bowl colonial servility.
2. DON’T VOTE SNP AT THE GENERAL ELECTION. If the SNP get a drubbing, Nicola will be forced to change or lose the leadership. “Any democratic event” Ms Cherry or another with the will to assert Scottish sovereignty will hopefully take over the leadership of the SNP.
My suggestion: Vote any other pro-indy candidate or abstain or even vote for Labour – if they are a Corbynista.
The SNP have made it clear the GE would only be a restatement of the indy mandate eg. mandate, double mandate, triple mandate, quadruple mandate, quintuple mandate. eg. An SNP vote is a wasted vote.
Personally, I am going to abstain or maybe vote Labour, if the Labour candidate is a pro-Corbyn candidate. My apologies to the current sitting SNP MP for whom I’ve always had the highest regard and always voted for – it’s not their fault the SNP leadership are failing to fight for Scotland.
My hope is that, if the Brexit deal goes through tomorrow that Ian Blackford has in his pocket the S30 letter from The First Minister, he then delivers it to Boris Johnston and the SNP Mps then leave the chamber, never to return.
The S30 request should give him 48 hours to respond, if not, then NS collapses Holyrood and then stands on UDI.
I can but dream.
“ DON’T VOTE SNP AT THE GENERAL ELECTION”
Thank you Carlaw Jackson for those weird and peculiar words but we support Independence, not your “precious Union”!
Good grief there appears to be an epidemic of lysergic acid.
Deal or no deal, Scotland is fckd. Prepare to be dumped on from a great height, and prepare for invasion of Brit/US troops if British nationalists get a whiff of any indy ref having a hope in hells chance after Brexit.
Scotland has oil, lots and lots of it, Scotland is strategically crucial to a continuing US/UK pact to diminish the EU and keep invading other countries around the globe. They will not play nice.
If the Britnat government do impose direct rule onto Scotland post Brexit, they will reverse every single achievement made in the last ten or so years. After centuries of what is effectively an occupation, with the SNP having a decade to try to repair the damage, that is not a good prospect at all.
There is not a thing Scotland can do once dragged out of the EU, and will be at the mercy of some very unhinged people, both sides of the big pond, how terrifying.
I despair to think there are so many in Scotland, willing to keep Scotland shackled to such a nasty, far right wing, bullying, opportunist, selfish, self serving neighbour. It’s bizarre, devolution is not fit for purpose, but we lose that we lose any autonomy that has allowed the SNP to keep Scotland’s head above water.
The Britnats will make sure to push Scotland’s head under the water and keep it there, as I say they do not play nice, that empire mindset is very dangerous.
Not sure what the solutions are for Scotland right now,but I hope somebody in high office does.
RE: Colin Alexander@2.36
Yeah so let’s all vote for a British Nationalist party in the GE, that’s going to help Scotland a whole lot, not!
Oh how your pals in the Britnat parties would freaking love to see the SNP out of WM, not gonna happen, we vote for them to at least show the world that we actually still have a parliament, and have nation status.
Nice try though.
Depressing. As if anyone needs it, proof of the disregard WM has for Scotland.
Colin Alexander: What a stupid idea! Why would anyone wanting indy vote Labour (and Corbyn is an utterly hopeless leader of a party, and a unionist to boot. Are you sure you are actually an indy supporter? I don’t like the SNP’s current tactics and would like to see a bit more political aggression, but Stuart is right that we are in effect prisoners in the UK. We need to adopt appropriate tactics for that situation. Asking for a Section 30, or even “demanding” one, isn’t going to achieve anything, we all know that, but equally, voting for any unionist party is the quickest way to destroying the indy movement for ever.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Brooks Was Here As we write this, Boris Johnson’s new Brexit deal appears to hang in the balance. […]
For those depressed about Scotland’s situation in Boris land let me pile on misery with my impressions from Trump land. I’ve been touring by car and train in last two weeks through rust belt Trumpian states staying in typically horrible mid market hotels with TV’s permanently tuned to FOX TV. Trump is hugely popular among have not’s. He has huge rallies almost daily with wildly enthusiastic capacity crowds in stadiums and large numbers outside desperate to get in. He lies his head off and they love it. It is horrible to watch. Of course Boris does exactly the same thing before his wildly enthusiastic conference attendees.
Stephen Kinnock’s Labour group contemplating giving Boris a victory by voting with him on Saturday out of fear of facing their leave voting constituents will deliver a mini me Trumpian UK. In time their leave voting constituents will suffer the horrible consequences along with the rest of us. As for Scotland, there won’t be the slightest chance of obtaining a S30 order for Indyref#2 during a Boris government.
I’ve refrained from replying to Colin Alexander in the past but his comment above @ 2.36 is just SO WRONG.
We need as many people in Scotland to vote SNP at EVERY available opportunity we are given until we get Independence.
We maybe don’t know their plans, they may be slow, but they really are our only way to independence.
David Linden was speaking on the BBC this morning:
link to twitter.com
He articulated the SNP concerns well but said the clear message for a GE for the SNP was ‘Stop Brexit’ and ‘Give Scotland the right to choose its own future’.
Is that the going to be the campaign? Stop Brexit (in the UK)?
Maybe ‘Give Scotland the right to choose its own future, in or out of Europe’ would be better? These last few days have highlighted the democratic deficit for Scotland. Why campaign to overturn Brexit for England?
The Lib Dems will use ‘In Europe and in the UK’ and the Tories will go fully behind Brexit so why compete with the Lib Dems or half of Labour?
“Asking for a Section 30, or even “demanding” one, isn’t going to achieve anything, we all know that…”
S30 has to be asked for as that is the precedent that was set in 2012 and the one the the EU (and Spain particularly) would happily and fully support. When UKGov denies the S30 against the democratic wishes of the Scottish Parliament, then we’re off to court. And I really do not rate the UKGov’s chances of success.
One way or another, Scotland will have indyRef2.
Well, they do say never interrupt an enemy when they are making a mistake… on the positive side this makes it more likely that support for independence and our own relationship with the EU (whether full membership, or as I increasingly think might have more advantage, a Norway deal) will rise, as it becomes clearer to even the dimmest that the union is NOT the safe option and is damaging to Scotland’s interests.
To any and all vote SNP 1 and WINGS 2
Lol, you do know he is a unionist troll trying to undermine support for Independence?
SNP policy is: vote SNP so SNP MPs can give supply and confidence votes to a Labour Govt.
The SNP are the ones administering the British Empire colonialism in Scotland a.k.a. the Vichy Scottish Govt or Scottish Raj.
The SNP are the ones who believe Scotland can only get independence via permission from the British Empire, as s30 begging bowl colonial administrators.
Youse can vote for the begging bowl all you like. As a sovereign Scot I am not voting for SNP colonial servitude.
We just have to bang on in the next campaign to any remaining unionists that Britain is not what you thought it was. Britain is undergoing radical change, is highly unstable, there has been a hard right coup, and if it’s security you’re after it’s simply no longer the safe option.
The SNP said the mandate is there. Indyref will be held 2020. Guaranteed LoL.
I urge everyone to vote for independence in the SNP indyref2 – if it ever happens.
So, no need to vote SNP.
I think Boris might just scrape through. It is going to hang on what the so-called independents and the Labour Lexits are going to do.
There is already talk in Labour circles that any MP voting for it will be deselected.
It’s raining, the days are drawing in, we’re stuck in limbo, hostage to fortune, and I just watched Brooks make the only rational choice left to him.
Anyone got a glimmer of hope to spare?
Voting SNP tells Ms Sturgeon / the SNP the electorate approve of their s30 begging bowl policy.
I don’t approve, so I’m not voting SNP.
I never said I would vote Labour, I might though if I thought it will lead to the SNP MP losing their seat and so cost Ms Sturgeon her role as leader of the S30 begging bowl policy.
Rev Stu Campbell
How about testing the water with the Wings Party? Stand against Pete Wishart as an MP candidate.
Scotland being filmed live, being “happy slapped” in real time, into submission, by the not so invisible hands of Westminster and oh, how your “big brother” and sister LoL as they watch… left, right…left, right, left…(thank you sir can I have another ?).
And as your head clears, realty kicks in and you realise that your “protectors” have chosen to look the other way or cross the road, as they don’t want any trouble now and besides A Wonderful Life is on the telly soon and they don’t want to miss the start (and some of us have work in the morning as well, you know….blah,blah,blah…)
And you try to remember Mahatma Gandhi’s words, but all you see is Catalonia and an infusion of poison that sweeps away everything that comes within the reach of it’s fury, you think fuck it I better stand up here and slowly you get to your feet…..it’s time to get ready, to brace for impact….
“It is seldom that liberty is lost all at once, slavery has so frightful an aspect to men accustomed to freedom, that it must steal in upon them by degrees and must disguise itself in a thousand shapes in order to be received.”
And all is calm….
@Colin Alexander
It’s great to see you go full metal union jacket.
Must be a panic in the breastie.
“I never said I would vote Labour,”
Yes you did Colin
“My suggestion: Vote any other pro-indy candidate or abstain or even vote for Labour – if they are a Corbynista.”
If you identify as Brit, then you are a Brit. But you’re not Scottish.
There is no happy middle ground to occupy.
All this Scottish & British crap is exactly that – crap!
Do not tolerate this rubbish in conversation.
Brits means Brits and that means English, with it’s English identity and English Nationalist nonsense.
Nicola down at the HoC today meeting the MPs:
link to twitter.com
FGS
Colin Alexander is a Unionist pretending something else.
He is on a bonus today from his General Ruthie?
“Scottish Tories are less keen on Scotland being treated with respect than English Tories are”
Doesn’t surprise me in the least. Most of them care f… all about Scotland. They are more interested in their bank balances, the Tory Party and sucking up to England. The only thing that varies among the Tories is the order of priority they allocate to these three interests.
Giving Goose
There is no such thing as British. English are English, Welsh are Welsh, Scots are Scots.
Its why the protestant Irish get so upset, because deep down they know there is no such thing as British – it’s a 300 year old nonsense.
Any Scot identifying as British is simply denying they are Scottish and who would rather be English. Pathetic.
Well said. And it needs to be called now. If it is and we lose we’ve tried. If we don’t call it we look like and act like doormats and we will never get there. There’s no choice for the snp other than to go for it. They really should have progressed this through the courts two years ago like you said.
A lot of scrolling by a certain poster on this thread. No doubt he is posting his usual – I am an independence supporter but please do not vote SNP. Pity he has has been encouraged, along with the other Britnats who post here, by all the negative posts in recent times.
The Union is on its way out – best to start dealing with it now Britnats. Just look at the faces on the DUP today when they realise it. It doesn’t matter whether or not Johnsons deal is voted for or not on Saturday, people can now see that England does not care for the other members of the Union as much as they thought. It’s a one sided Union of exploitation. It needs to end and it will.
Hearing that the ERG are asking the AG Geoffrey Cox to confirm they can crash out of the EU with no deal after the transition period. i.e. December 2020.
link to twitter.com
Gods, this is so depressing.
I was young in the 1980s, the 1990s. The Berlin Wall fell, it felt like the world was so full of optimism, so full of possibilities. The Cold War that had background oppressed my parents’ and my whole lives was suddenly gone. It felt like anything was possible.
I still have a yellowed 1993 newspaper clipping from our major broadsheet Helsingin Sanomat, a whole double-page spread, interviews with photos from the SNP leader Alex Salmond and from a couple of enthusiastic SNP youth wing activists, Shona Robison and Stewart Hosie, and analysis and info. After the re-independence of the Baltic states, Scottish independence didn’t seem like such a far-fethched idea to the then editors of that newspaper. Worth in-depth coverage, at least.
Nowadays, with less resources, the few Finnish journalists covering UK stuff in situ seem to mostly stay put in London and regurgitate BBC/British MSM stuff. Some short forays outside, mainly to the Irish border. Scotland gets a few mentions but the consensus seems that Scotland bottled it in 2014 so it’s less important now, especially with all the UK Brexit shenanigans and shambles, EU responses going on.
Of course my political optimism in the early 1990s was a bit naive but there really was a tiny window of opportunity… which got quickly shut down by rampant global capitalists and the re-emergence of Russian patriotism (plutocracy, imperialism and ethinc nationalism), and now all kinds of ethnic populist nationalisms crawling out of the woodwork all over Europe. The Scottish indepence movement is fairly unique in not being ethnic or “nationalistic” in the old chauvinistic sense of the word.
When I lived in Scotland, I never felt less than welcome as a new Scot, somebody who had chosen that country to live in and was invited to participate to make it an even better place.
But it’s easy enough to lump Scottish civic nationalism (which argues for political sovereignty of the people of Scotland) together with the various borderline fascist, ethnic nationalisms going around in Europe (and elsewhere in the world) at the moment. Brexit hysteria is a perfect example of ethinc English nationalism.
So we are where we are.
Where and HOW do we go on from here? How do you keep going when the optimism of your youth has turned into middle-aged realism and borderline cynicism? When the world deals you blow after blow (NO in 2014, Trump, Brexit, Boris Johnson, Rachel McKinnon etc.)?
You have to keep the goal clear. Scottish independence. It’s not going to be fast or easy. But it’s a prize fighting for. Leafleting, talking, marching. Not actually violently fighting. (Tinfoil on, MI5/MI6 could try some false flags to discredit the Scottish independence movement. They have form.)
I don’t consider myself as a very “nationalistic” Finn but one thing I make no compromises on. The people of Finland are sovereign. It’s written in our WRITTEN constitution.
Sure, represented in Parliament (PR voting system) by MPs, and the government (cabinet) has to have parliamentary support. Head of State (President) elected directly by the people in a two-phase election every 6 years, limited to 2 terms.
Our political cultures are different. FPTP single-member constituencies encourage a confrontational two-party parliament and state; proportional representation encourages a multi-party parliament and governing coalitions (which we view as GOOD – one party dictatorship seems like a really BAD idea.)
OK, I run on and on. It’s kind of stupid to write about what ifs when the stark reality is staring us in the face: the UK will Brexit in the way most detrimental to Scotland and there’s fuck all Scotland can do about it. Except demand an independence referendum, in stead of asking nicely. And be denied. Brexit England needs Scotland’s resources to weather the Brexit economic storm.
I welcome each and every 2014 NO voter who’s now reconsidered and become a YES. But it’s no use being YES now, when Scotland is being disenfranchised. Or maybe it could be some good in the future but the SNP leadership seem too mired in Brexit and various domestic (and internal) distractions now.
Sorry for a rambling long post but, gods, this IS so depressing.
Stay in the UK in order to stay in the EU and also lead the UK. That’s what we we’re told in 2014.
Now we’re being forced out the EU and they’re trying to force us to stay in the UK.
Scotland is experiencing the biggest democratic outrage any country of North West Europe has experienced for 75 years. That is not hyperbole, it is the plain truth.
Could we get to independence the same way as Norway did?
link to peterabell.scot
That was interesting lumilumi.
Having been in Finland I have a great admiration for your people, history and landscape.
I’m always optimistic.
I marched in Edinburgh with 200 to 250,000 people of many nationalities. What a proud day. There comes a tipping point and the size of the crowd shows us it’s coming close.
On a somewhat lighter note, the Extraordinary League of ERG Yuckies thinktank have been doing deep research into what really makes BoJo tick, apart from his Union busting tick a tick a time bomb, and they’ve found that it’s his favourite song which he is wanting to make the “National” anthem of whatever’s left of the UK when Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have left, and heres’s the words.
——-
“Oh! I do like to be beside the seaside
I do like to be beside the sea!
I do like to stroll upon the Prom, Prom, Prom!
Where the brass bands play: “Tiddely-om-pom-pom!”
So just let me be beside the seaside
I’ll be beside myself with glee
For there’s lots of girls besides,
I should like to be beside
Beside the seaside! Beside the sea!”
@Stu used an Independent front page headline to try to claim that the FM formally requested a s30 in 2017. Think that through.
You’re meant to know this stuff Stu. You’ve been well found out Full of it.
Lord Pentland should be clearing his throat round about now.
Here’s hoping. Anything that drives the wedge further is good news by me.
We have a Sovereign Constitution.
Shoulda used it.
I’ll let the SNP explain why they didn’t.
Gerry
A letter was sent to May by the First Minister in March 2017 requesting to begin discussing the Sec 30 order as mandated by The Scottish Parliament.
link to news.gov.scot
Only 24 Hours to the sun and the flowers
Where there used to be Reign.
Vote for Boris and his insulting half Witt deal
And make Scotland the least important and stupid
Nation on earth.
FFS Scotland look around you and take stock of this!
The first good Wings post for a while partly ruined by the last sentence.
from twitter on the guardian
With Graham Stringer sounding increasingly emollient towards the deal, that takes Labour MPs supporting the deal up to 9.
So if all the ERG and Independent Conservatives are on board, @FinancialTimes analysis means he has a majority of 1 for the deal.
this looks like a very close run thing. bojo will win me thinks
“The decision on the PM’s awfulness is expected in the next 15 minutes” at 4.46, at least I think that’s what it said.
So now there is a border down the Irish Sea and n ireland is being cast over the side what in manky jacket saying about his precious union
Dave @ 501
“to begin early discussions”
As i said, not a formal request.
Has big mooth Ruth gone in to hiding again with Mundell?
The proof that we are steadily winning is all around us if we look for it…even in Tesco!…I was in Tesco yesterday and the union jack emblazoned plastic bagged potatoes(which I usually just walk by) caught my eye…on the bag was also a Saltire sticker!…specially and separately stuck onto every one of them by hand because they were not all in the same place. Now I take from this that Tesco or the supplier has noticed a distinct fall in sales due to our boycott of buying union flagged produce…the road to independence is certainly a one way street!
Stockholm Syndrome? Institutionalised? Maybe just a fondness for the limelight in London. What would all those Scottish MPs in Westminster do after Independence? They would become irrelevant, their jobs obsolete. I guess not the best prospect to fight for.
Don’t find the poll results surprising, most people outside politics have a fairly good grasp of what democracy means – and of course constituent nations in a union must have their views respected and protected. I’m sure you’ve already asked the question of English voters whether they would also prefer to leave the UK if it ensured a quick exit from the EU, there would be a significant majority.
How bizarre. Wouldn’t be surprised if there was greater support for Scottish independence south of the border than there is in Scotland.
Colin Alexander@2.36
Nice try son, have you ever tried sticking your head up your own ar*e, I reckon you successfully have.
C of S chickens out.
Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 14:17,
Well, exactly. Cowed into doing nothing out of an inordinate fear of the consequences is just another manifestation of The Cringe.
Close but no cigar in the court today. Appeal? No word yet.
And now there were 10: @OnnMel is backing Boris’ deal. By our numbers, Boris Johnson has a majority of *two* for his deal tomorrow
bojo doesnt need snp mp votes, why would he offer a deal to them?
Maugham lost………..
@callmedave
I don’t think so, don’t think Maugham is putting it to a full hearing. No idea why it failed, perhaps “now is not the time” 🙂
It’s Labour that will let the Tories through.
Already the waverers are moving to support the deal. Unless the remainder are particularly interested in shortening their political careers the rest will soon follow.
Selling the result will be easy. The transition period means that the worst of the chaos will likely be avoided and while there will certainly be bumps there should be plenty of time to sort them out. Up for re-election, the people who backed the deal will be able to talk about optimism, determination and that WWII spirit everybody is fond of. I doubt there will be many difficulties in MPs keeping their seats.
Good to hear stronger language coming from the First Minister. I suspect she realises her hand is about to be forced. The next few days should be rather interesting.
Scottish Tories are like the Jewish kapos who herded their own people into the gas chambers.
Cubby says:
18 October, 2019 at 11:57 am on “levers of power” thread.
“David Linden SNP MP speaking very well on the BBC reminding viewers that the SNP did put forward a compromise way back in 2016 that Scotland would stay in the single market and customs union and it was totally ignored by the Torries…”
Dads Army and I were discussing that last night and at 7:11 this morning I suggested that the SNP should consider proposing an amendment to the Brexit Bill to that effect.
Such an amendment would be very bad news for all the branch offices and would be a stick to beat them with, whichever way they voted – regardless of how the results turn out.
And if successful I think it would leave Scotland and the Independence movement in a better place than they will be in the event of the bill passing or falling unamended.
Some aerial footage of the enormous crowd marching to Barcelona:
link to twitter.com
Mark Russell 5.31pm yes it would certainly be ironic if England were prepared to let us go against the wishes of the PSB’s who would hold us fast.
Rev. Stuart Campbell@2.17pm
Well exactly. Thankfully the Scottish cringe is not so strong in the First Minister of Scotland and the referendum has been called for and being prepared for next year so it is a moot point.
‘Misconceived’, ‘unlawful’ – and probably naughty…
Boris had a green light
link to heraldscotland.com
* Boris HAS a green light…
Although the Court of Session has dismised the case, the fact remains that “section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Act 2018 […] states it would be unlawful for the government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland formed part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain” (Financial Times). So if Parliament approves this so-called ‘deal’ it will simply bring itself into further disrepute. If it can ignore its own legisation when it wishes, what is the point of having a Parliament in the first place?
Anyway, deal or no deal, the fact remains that Scotland voted decisively to Remain in the EU. More people voted to remain in the EU than voted to remain in the UK. Just as when my MP stands up to speak in Parliament both the ‘Government’ and the ‘Opposition’ benches empty, Scotland is getting pretty sick of being endlessly put down by a bunch of US funded fascists. All this can only hasten our independence, the sooner the better.
Col Blimp@6.07pm
As I posted on that thread an acceptable deal that would allow the SNP to vote for Johnson’s deal would be to amend it to allow Scotland to remain in the EU ( or at least singlemarket/ Customs Union) and written in to deal legally to agree the permanent transfer of referendum powers on the constitution and implement the result.
So I think there is a deal but just not the site owners deal. So if Johnson’s vote tomorrow fails go for a tough deal that respects Scotlands vote to remain but also makes Indyref2 airtight.
There are more guts in a catalans little finger than the 50% of PSB’s who are “too feart” to take that one step. Scotland the brave? Your having a laugh.
What the SNP should do is put in an amendment along the lines of “Scotland’s Place in Europe” and challenge Westminster to vote it down. Or simply tack on to the NI stuff “Same stuff for Scotland”. A second amendment for the Section 30 🙂
All wingers….get your shit together now !
John Wood says:
18 October, 2019 at 6:26 pm
“Although the Court of Session has dismised the case, the fact remains that “section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Act 2018 […] states it would be unlawful for the government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland formed part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain” (Financial Times). So if Parliament approves this so-called ‘deal’ it will simply bring itself into further disrepute. If it can ignore its own legisation when it wishes, what is the point of having a Parliament in the first place?”
You’ll not have heard of the sovereignty of parliament and implied repeal then? One parliament cannot bind another.
dadsarmy
I’m not sure if amendments are allowed on tomorrow’s vote but they certainly are on the Withdrawal Agreement Bill, expected to take place on Monday.
Our Yoon’s would hate such an amendment as they would be forced to be seen to be choosing between weakening the Union or sticking the knife into Scotland.
Re.Shawshank, I recall being told by an ex-POW (ww11) that when the gates were open at liberation, they(prisoners) stood around not knowing what to do or where to go. The conditioning of 4 years is one thing 300+ is something else. This is why we need strong leadership.
dadsarmy says@6.34 great idea, that would be interesting!
I said: “Personally, I am going to abstain or MAYBE vote Labour, if the Labour candidate is a pro-Corbyn candidate.
I would gladly vote SNP if voting SNP was a vote for indy. But it won’t be.
It will be about sending SNP MPs to Westminster to waste their time and talents on the British Empire.
mmmm
it looks like we will finally know what brexit actually means tomorrow
labour mps will push bojo’s deal over the line. that will be an extinction event for uk labour.
it means that when we leave on the 31st, the transitional 2 year period will begin and the cliff edge will be delayed, nothing will happen
a ge will happen and bojo will win a majority, uk labour will be annihilated, the snp will win back many of the seats we lost in 2017
we are now commited to holding indyref2 during this transitional period
It wasnt me who promised “we wont be dragged out of Europe against our will”. I believed it till today.
The truth is much starker. It was empty rhetoric.
Stu was right about that.
I will vote SNP because like Scotland now, I am a prisoner in my own way. I have no choice in what I vote if I want indy.
That has to change. I honestly and sincerely believe we have missed a great opprtunity, the like of which may never present itself again, and like many have found myself now hoping something is going to turn up and save the day.
I fear it is born of desperation rather than reality
For every 20,000 Scots there will be an undercover civil servant, manager, director and top politicians working for Westminster, for over 300 years we’ve been controlled by the sleekest establishment in the world, it’s going to be someone special who’ll lead Scotland to independence.
Colin Alexander,you are a Unionist. Stop your stupid kidon.
Wee Ginger Dug podcast is on this very topic. Paul and Calum Baird, editor of The National, discuss current events:
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
A vote for Independence is a vote for the people of Scotland to run their own country; it’s not a vote for Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP.
Support for indy is currently about 50% or over 50%.
Support for the SNP? Less than 50%.
Slagging any potential Yes voter, who is not one of Sturgeon’s SNP sheep, is damaging to independence.
Labour voter, LibDem voter, Tory voter, any party voter or none: vote for indy, even if you will never support the SNP.
Vote YES even if you are now sick of the SNP’s surrender of Scottish sovereignty.
Famous15
Go with Nicola and demand an s30 fae Boris -c’mon gies a laugh.
RM says:
18 October, 2019 at 7:17 pm
“For every 20,000 Scots…”
That’s only 250 of the Blighters – there must have been at least twice that number exposed as Unionist Spies on this site alone.
The “deal” will be passed tomorrow by British nationalists. For the millionth time England will have shat all over Scotland.
A few weeks ago I suggested Scotland should remove its pro-indy MPs after the next Westminster general election if England refuses to agree to Section30. I now think Scotland should remove its pro-indy MPs immediately after tomorrow’s latest humiliation.
Pointless? I don’t fucking care anymore. Just do it.
To WOS
The good “fair” people of England are not going to save Scotland
So what 945people in England said it’s not fair on Scotland
It’s easy for them to say that each country should decide for themselves when they know that England has ignored Scotland throughout the last three and a half years of brexit
Then they ignored us for decades before that too
Correct, I don’t believe your poll , it’s ludicrous to think that because a little over half of the small number of people you polled gives us a feel good factor when we see every day of our lives the whole English regime including ordinary people hellbent on telling Scotland it is just another county in their country.
A fifth of people in wales are English and somewhere between a seventh and a tenth are English in Scotland
Your poll is nonsense in my opinion
Colin Alexander says:
18 October, 2019 at 7:12 pm
“I said: “Personally, I am going to abstain or MAYBE vote Labour, if the Labour candidate is a pro-Corbyn candidate.”
OK lets have another look at what you said
“My suggestion: Vote any other pro-indy candidate or abstain or even vote for Labour – if they are a Corbynista.”
Nah sorry Colin I don’t see any “MAYBE” there
Apropos undercover establishment types and spies, I was at a few Siol nan Gaidheal meetings some time ago, which were attended by a rather posh young chap in his late teens/early twenties – who bore an uncanny resemblance to the current Lord Strathclyde … I don’t think anyone told him where the guns were buried.
.
Rev Stu.,
The suggestion was made that you stand against Pete Wishart MP.
On this brilliant, but dreadfully dark thread, you posted the Shawshank Redemption scene which I always find difficult to watch. This is because, as a serving police officer, I had to go and attend to the final offices at such suicides. From gently cutting that rope, travelling to the mortuary and eventually paying last respects at the graveside. Most often much younger folk with their whole lives ahead. I am haunted with the worry whether I, or someone else in the community could have done something to stop such appalling waste.
So with such a bleak analogy and dreadful outlook, what would happen if, tomorrow, you announced your candidacy and intention to stand in the HIGHLY MARGINAL Perthshire constituency with an SNP majority of 21voters?
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
I suggest the media response would be immediate. Certain politicians might evacuate their bowels.
Nicola Sturgeon would HAVE to do something and NOW. Otherwise veteran SNP Pete Wishart is guaranteed to lose his seat.
I would suggest you stand as a candidate for…
YES – Make Scottish IndyRef2 Happen Now Party.
With the strap line…
Vote for Scottish Independence by getting the SNP to stop trying to save England from itself. England voted for Brexit, let them get on with it. The SNP MPs should let England go. So say the supporters of Wings Over Scotland.
The Westminster General Election is imminent. Perth and North Perthshire is incredibly marginal.
Those SNP MPs who have gotten stuck in the tramrails of trying to save England from Brexit by sacrificing Scotland’s Independence would be faced with the IMMEDIATE AND REAL warning shot that their actions have consequences.
Stuart, I will pay £100 towards your deposit to stand at Perth and North Pershire. Pete Wishart used to be my MP and is a really decent guy (first met him when we booked Runrig for our university when I was SU president in 1980) and feel a bit guilty about such a manouvre.
However, by REGISTERING your candidacy at Perth for the imminent General Election, you would, at one stroke, bring the festering problem that all the poling here proves to a massive halt.
Anyone else care to join me in raising Stuart Campbell’s prospective parliamentary candidate deposit for the constituency of Perth and North Perthshire?
In a strange way, this would bring HOPE to MANY of us here at WoS and those in the wider INDEPENDENCE movement that at least we can do something NOW to get the current SNP high command to read the polling evidence that proves… saving England from Brexit is NOT the job of the SNP and that that policy is harming Scotland.
I have seen too many suicides in my life. Watching my country commit political suicide is too much. As a Scot., I know my nation is the most inventive and creative in the world. Stuart, PLEASE assent to this lateral thought process and allow us to help you stand for Westminster Parliament in the imminent General Election.
Graeme
“My suggestion” says nothing about what I will do.
A suggestion is a suggestion for others.
Let me rephrase it:My suggestion for others: if there is another pro-indy candidate that’s NOT the SNP: vote for them.
Otherwise: abstain.
As a third-choice: vote for a Corbynista: The SNP’s apologists say Labour will deliver an s30, cos Nicola demands one LoL.
Just don’t vote SNP. Don’t give support for Nicola Sturgeon’s British Empire begging-bowl colonial servitude.
You’re right of course we’re NOT a partner in the union. At best we are a province. We got devolution many years after it was first given to NI which was never a country in the first place. And THAT was done to essentially outsource the grief caused by both sides to the govt
But, I have seen Sturgeon on TV and she was, again, asked if she would do as you suggest and copy what was done it Catalan. Her point was that it DIDN’T WORK for Catalan and that unless am Indy Ref is internationally recognised there is simply no point to going thru the process to end up back where you started.
She’s got a point. The BBC, for one, is reporting on how violent ‘separatists’ are causing mayhem in Catalan and Channel 4 tried to goad her (or allowed her the opportunity to put paid to rumours – depends how you look at it) that she would do the same, even asking if she’d be willing to go to jail!! She, again, said she wanted a ‘legal and internationally recognised route’ to Indy.
Imagine the glee of the Orange Order thugs if anything like what happened in Catalan were to occur here? They’d be almost orgasmic! A chance to be let off the leash by the state? They’d LOVE it.
No, she’s right, we HAVE to build support to a level where it can be no longer denied and Indy becomes utterly inevitable. Our day WILL come…
Stu Campbell
I would also give you £100 towards your election expenses if you stand against “I want to be Speaker”, Pete Wishart.
If your manifesto opposed the S30 colonial begging bowl SNP policy and instead stood for dissolving the Union by Scottish sovereignty.
Get that crowdfunder opened and I’ll put my money where my mouth is.
No wonder Toom Tabard is smiling
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Al Stuart,
I wi!! match your offer.
Well Colin in my view anyone who would even consider voting for a British Nationalist party (Corbynist or otherwise) or even suggest anyone else does is a British Nationalist and no friend of Scottish independence
You are of course entitled to disagree with me
.
Dads Army,
I would hate to lose Pete Wishart MP., But surely if Stuart Campbell stood in the imminent General Election at Perth, by virtue of that news getting out NOW, this would focus the minds of Nicola and Ian Blackford on the damage their SAVE ENGLAND FROM BREXIT is doing to Scotland?
I loathe the Tories. Proof here…
http://www.calumslist.org
But would I gladly suffer the prospect of Tory Ian Duncan as MP at Perth for 2 to 5 years if that sorted out this mess.
Stuart Campbell, c’mon, within a couple of posts, you already have £200 towards the £500 deposit to stand in Perth. What do you say to this idea?
ERG members asked AG Geoffrey Cox to provide “assurances” that Britain could, legally, crash out with no deal at end of transition phase in December 2020.
In which case, spring 2021 might be the prime time for indyref2. As many others have said here, spring is psychologically the best time to hold it anyway.
Surgeries might be a tad difficult, but Swinson …
Preposterous idea, on so many levels.
And what of WoS?
Give that up for a stunt?
O/T
Good win there for Murray 1 – 1 Copil.(huge serve!)(19aces)
6-3
6-7 (7-9 tie brk)
6-4
Murray was 5-2 up in set 2 but blew three games in a row 🙁
Served for the match at 5-4 in the 3rd set (3 aces in a row) to win.
Played well to recover from that nonsense in set 2 and into the semi-finals. 🙂
Not looking at thread tonight got ‘man flu’… winter jab on Thursday off to bed.
@Al-Stuart
It’s a really dumb idea. It means the Tory woudld get in, and the media will be full of rising Tory stories, the BoJo effect, SNP are done, Indy is gone forever, Scotland has turned its back on divisieve Indy referendums, even Scotland now loves Brexit. Plus one less SNP MP and perhaps if repeated, not even a pro-Indy majority.
The Unionists would be laugh laugh laughing for the next 50 years, Indy would be dead and so would most of us.
.
Stu.,
I just telephoned the guys and girls across at Calum’s List.
They offered to put £100 into your £500 deposit and election fund to stand in the Perth & Perthshire General Election.
A bit of a shocker as they also endorsed you on their website which is very unusual as they are kind apolitical.
But there you are, along with Alec Salmond…
http://www.calumslist.org
So with £300 out of £500 already in the fundraiser, surely this has something positive to bring out from a very dark “Brooks Was Here” thread?
Stuart, how about you at least ANALISE what would happen if you declared your candidacy for the Perth & North Perthshire UK Westminster seat?
Now, now, Colin and Al-Stuart, what is the point of challenging Stu to stand in Perth where we already have a pro-indy MP.
Makes more sense to challenge a Lib Dem seat e.g. East Dumbartonshire or even a Tory seat like Fluffy’s.
By challenging a pro-Indy incumbent you will not necessarily increase our percentage of seats.
@Al-Stuart
I was going to point out the “pedigree” of the poster who started the idea, but actually it’s quite funny and I like the endorsement on Calum’s List which is well done, so though I couldn’t endorse
(the windup)it, I don’t oppose it in THIS early stage 🙂@Al Stuart,
Not such a dumb idea at all. I know many many folk who would vote for another indy party candidate.Stu is not bound to act in SNP interests only. He has his own life to lead.
Besides Stu’s regular “Friends” are leaving in great numbers to join other forums instead so Wings might well diminisn anwway. Hes mad you know.Hes not well they say.
Give it a go Stu. Ill make sure you get votes ok.
dadsarmy
So the media would be full of anti-independence propaganda?
No difference then.
Meg merrilees
I would be happy to see Stu oppose any candidates that try to relegate Scotland to colonial begging bowl status.
How about Glasgow North-East seat? Paul Sweeney’s seat (majority 242), since Stu has ripped into his pish:
e.g.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Glesga will mibbie more appreciate Stu’s debating style .
i am not going to ask for the serving police officer to be blocked…..
.
Hi Meg,
The whole point of standing in an SNP seat with a wafer thin 21 voter majority is to GET NICOLA AND IAN BLACKFORD TO LISTEN.
In fact the ENTIRE THESIS of what Stuart Campbell has been writing for MONTHS is to get the SNP to study the polls and MAKE A DECISION.
If I understand this website, Stuart’s purpose in floating the idea of a “Wings” list part at Holyrood in 2021 is precisely to get Nicola and Ian Blackford to wake up and acknowledge an alternate scenario where we ultimately get independence.
BASED ON POLLS.
By standing against (poor old) Pete Wishart, this SHORT CIRCUITS the need for a Wings Party in 2021.
IF and I pray to my personal God it brings about some sense, IF Stuart was to declare his candidacy as a PPC for the Perth & North Perthshire constituency, then the SNP high command would HAVE to address this issue.
In those circumstances, with the boil lanced, it may well be the outcome that Pete Wishart can campaign without Stuart Campbell and WoS decamped in Perth.
I really wished they had allowed it to be aired at conference a few days ago, but hey ho.
All I would ask is that Stuart Campbell LOOK at this idea and analyse the pitfalls and whether, in balance, it would achieve the desired result.
@ call me dave – I started watching the Andy Murray match on Amazon Prime. Had to stop at the end of the 2nd set. Can’t stand the stress. So thanks for the update. Good to hear that Andy is on form again.
Anyway, there’s not much happening on here tonight. I expect tomorrow will be different after the big reveal.
‘Would you support the SNP backing Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement in return for Scottish Parliament getting guaranteed power over timing of Indyref2?’
2740 votes cast
Yes 32%
No 68%
3 hours left
link to twitter.com
As Rev pointed out yesterday, the poll is meaningless because it only gets to my followers, but what’s interesting is the sheer number of responses I’ve had saying ‘You can’t trust Tories!’, ‘Never trust a Tory!’, ‘Fuck Boris!’ etc. It may be heartfelt stuff but it’s less than revelatory or surprising and, crucially, it’s a neat way of avoiding the question.
There’s been a really angry tone about some responses too, as if I’ve just farted in the neighbours’ hoose on our first visit. ‘How dare you ask this stupid question!’ (Not verbatim because I don’t want to embarrass any respondents, the vast majority of whom are fellow indy supporters, but that’s the gist – ‘Stop embarrassing us!’)
There’s another whole batch of replies, most very civil, pointing out that ”we’ simply don’t do that sort of thing, it’s not at all decent or properly ‘Scottish’ and, frankly, one should be ashamed of even countenancing such beastliness.’ (Okay, hammed-up the Miss Jean Brodie voice there but, again, I’m trying to get at the ‘tone’.)
Right from the off, the % breakdown of the votes was a third Yes, two-thirds No. ‘Yes’ was only briefly at 35%, then it steadily dropped, settled at 32, where it’ll probably be at midnight, when it shuts.
So that’s a third of the respondents prepared to do the deal, whilst voicing many misgivings about the fate of our English and Welsh relatives and friends. But according to many of the ‘No’ voters, they’re just selfish, ‘un-Scottish’ fools who would bring the rest of the indy movement into disrepute and finally kill off the SNP and, with it, any hope of securing freedom for the nation.
Very similar statements have been made right here, in this thread (and the last) about and directly to fellow btl contributors.
So I want to ask something. I’m not naming anyone but you know who you are, when you commented, and what you said. I’m not ‘picking’ on any specific poster or quoting from any comment because, again, I don’t want to add to the friction which has been building here (and everywhere else) for months now. But I really want to ask you all something and I hope that some of you will make an effort to respond.
When you say ‘we are better than this’, or ‘we don’t do that type of thing’, who is the ‘we’ you have in mind? Is it your immediate family and friends, fellow members in your SNP branch? Is it the other contributors to this place and/or other indy-supporting sites? Is the entire ‘Yes’ movement you’re speaking for, or perhaps the whole of the Scottish nation?!
Just checked ‘sanctimonious’ in the thesaurus there…nah, it’s not the word I’m looking for. Struggling…
I need a word that describes the actual world-view of someone who feels superior to his wealthy, healthy, well-dressed, happily married neighbour, despite the fact that he’s half-starved, lonely, and has no actual fabric covering his arse…
…a word which nails the precise point at which inverse snobbery intersects with simple cowardice…
…disguises fear as political nous…
…
…
Nah.
Give up.
Any suggestions?
Whatever that word is, it has something to do with ‘guilt’. Making others feel guilty. But I’m not sure what they’re supposed to be guilty about. Being ‘foolhardy’, ‘reckless’, ‘irresponsible’ etc (and I didn’t even have to check the thesaurus that time!) and those are the words you associate with what? Aye – lectures from parents, from teachers, from ‘elders’ generally.
Well, guess what? I’m 56 and I dare say I’m far from being in the ‘eldest’ category of Wings reader and I really do not appreciate being lectured to at my age, by anyone, especially when it comes to how I should think and feel and act about the future of my own family, friends and community. And I particularly don’t like it when that lecture is coming from someone who claims to share my priorities.
So, you pious, self-righteous, smug, moralizing (yes, I’m back in the thesaurus!) insincere, holier-than-thou fuds can just get to actual fuck.
As if you ‘care more’, you ‘feel more’, you are ‘behaving more responsibly’ than those of us who witness what’s happening around us every fucking day and are getting more desperate for something, anything to hang on to.
You’d feel guilty about doing a deal with ‘Tory scum’?
Well, heaven forfend you should be embarrassed by such behaviour. Let your ‘earthier’ fellow-travellers help you out, eh?
Go ahead, make the deal, nod it through, hold yer nose, yer baws, plug yer ears, do whatever ye have to do, and give us the guilt. We can live with it. No problem. And if our weans and grand-weans find it all intolerable? they can help form the first movement in 300 years to demand a reunion with England.
And if that happens?
Ha!
What reunites us all, in the end-up, after all this mayhem, is that none of us will care, and couldn’t affect it in any way whatsoever, even if we wanted to. Because we’ll all have been a long time dead by then.
🙂
(P.S. Wingers planning to attend the gathering in Glasgow next week, be advised – I’m aware of ‘differences of opinion’ between some of you, related to this place and other issues. That’s all well and good but I just want to remind you that the gathering is ‘Friends of WOS’ and has been billed as such on social media. Please behave accordingly, and if you can’t? take it outside. Seriously.)
😉
I thought the prospect of a Wings Party was to stand list candidates for the Holyrood elections in 2021.
What, then, makes people posting BTL on this site think that Rev. Stu is going to stand for Westminster at a General Election, even one that might take place this year? Has Rev. Stu ever mentioned a Wings Party standing for Westminster?
If he hasn’t, where are these posters getting this idea from? And why are they pushing it so hard? Are some of them maybe getting away – far away – ahead of themselves? And, if so, is it for some reason or other best known to themselves? What is that reason?
Did I miss something?
Or are some people, a tad carried away by over-excitement, jumping the gun? Not only when the gun has not yet been fired, but when it hasn’t even been taken down from whatever shelf it was left on … after the last Holyrood elections. The purpose proposed Wings Party, as far as I was aware, was not to damage the SNP but to increase the number of pro-Indy MSPs at Holyrood. So that Wings candidates could gain list seats in areas where the SNP could not easily do so, since the SNP had done so well in the constituency vote there.
Holyrood 2021 is more than 18 months in the future. Rev. Stu has yet to decide whether or not there will be a Wings Party by then. All he has so far said, as far as I am aware, is that if there is one, it will stand only for list seats, and not for constituency seats.
This has nothing at all to do with seats at Westminster. So where is all this guff trying to goad Rev. Stu into standing for Perth at the next General Election coming from? What lies behind it? Are some people deliberately misunderstanding what Rev. Stu so clearly said about the possibility of a Wings Party being brought into existence? Or are they just not thinking things through in a logical manner?
I am not party to Rev. Stu’s thinking or intentions, and won’t presume to speak for him. He has a perfect right to see things very differently from me, and could easily do so, but if I were him I would tend to be discouraged by some of the posts above. Especially by what sounds like the over-enthusiastic response of those who seem to think that the aim of the Wings Party idea was simply to damage the SNP, by firing shots across their bows, taking seats off them and making life difficult for them.
In particular, I would be discouraged to by those promoting the use of a Campbell-led Wings Party to split the pro-Indy vote at the next Westminster elections, which could happen very soon. If, as some here are suggesting, Rev. Stu were indeed to stand against Pete Wishart in Perth, in a General Election with a First Past the Post voting system, the almost inevitable outcome would be the Tories capturing the seat.
Split the pro-Indy vote, and the Tories will get through in Perth. Do likewise in many Scottish constituencies, and Unionists will win seats everywhere. Is that what some of those posting here really want?
Or are they just not thinking?
Prediction! Boris’ plan will pass tomorrow, GE Tory landside. Followed by no to S30. What happened to plan b then?
Ian Brotherhood
I oppose Stu’s deal because Scotland voted Remain. Such a deal would betray sovereign Scotland’s decision to remain.
As Ms Whitford SNP MP admitted last night on QT: the SNP offered a compromise Brexit deal to the UK Govt similar to the deal N.I is now being offered.
By doing so, the SNP betrayed sovereign Scotland’s decision to Remain and have done so ever since, yet Stu gets the flack?
Sheer SNP hypocrisy: selling out Scotland’s sovereignty for SNP devolution colonial rule.
Red Tory John Robertson, former Red Tory Labour MP for Glasgow North-West.
“I did not vote for the Iraq War” Robertson.
Very pro-Trident as well as pro-Iraq war. But he says he was only very pro-Trident because really he’s very opposed to nuclear weapons, so the more nuclear weapons the UK gets the more nukes the UK can get rid of in deals with other states’ nukes.
So, really, getting more nukes is about getting rid of nukes, according to Mr Robertson.
Or Labour so opposed to the Lords it’s stuffed with Labour peers, but ah, that’s cos they oppose the Lords.
So, now the pro-indy SNP that want our MPs out of Westminster, desperate to warm the green leather benches yet again.
They want lots of SNP MPs AGAIN cos really they are so opposed to WM.
When will people learn? Baaa Baaa.
Colin, Alex Bell?
Colin Alexander………jeezoh !
Not got the brains your were born with.
@Colin Alexander (9.41) –
Thanks for the response.
I’ve read it seven times and can’t make head nor tail of it.
😉
Exatly what good did 56 SNP members do in Westminster?
Currently the 35 spend their time trying to be heard amid the cat calls in the chamber.
You see Im trying to establish what difference it makes to have all 59 seats at westminster.
No motions taken.Every amendment voted down. Its a damned waste of time.
Is it in fact just to prove a point that people are voting for them and indicates gbd people want indy.? Is it simply to highlight Westminster indifference to Scotland which weve known about for years anyway.t
I remember when the 56 went down. I expected fireworks which ended up a damp squib.Thats only my view.
What do you think having 59 would achieve that 56 couldnt?
This is a genuine question I might add.
Bob Mack, Al Stuart, Colin Alexander – it’s getting dark in Compton in Berkshire
Your families in Newbury are missing you
link to army.mod.uk
@Cadogan Enright,
Your an idiot. We used to hav e a great word in Glasgow that describes you to a t. ____Snidey.
Bob Mack@10.24pm
“This is a genuine question I might add” – Well if the SNP MPs did not take their seats then Johnson’s deal would be a cert to pass tomorrow. There is an answer for you Bob. Want to reciprocate and answer my question
Does above the line or below the line in Wings produce the greatest amount of SNP/Scotgov/Sturgeon baaad output.
That’s my genuine question for you. I say below the line – vast chunks of this thread I have had to scroll past.
Ian Brotherhood @ 21:31,
Can’t say personally it’s about “moralising” but rather it would be a poor trade if it was merely about getting one measly S30. Selling ourselves far too cheap. Not least because it would certainly upset some people and likely deter them from voting for indy in an ensuing referendum so gained.
We’ve seen so many BritNat politicos of late do U-turns at the merest whim then pretend that it’s no biggie and didn’t really happen anyway, and we are heartily sick of it. We do tend to hold the SNP to higher standards, so for any of them to argue now for a “quick fix” with BoJo the Devil would likely be a provocation too far for many potential voters. The psychology is just all wrong.
Since Nicola’s whole strategy appears to be to bring as many ex-No/pro-Remain voters on board as possible – the very converts we need to win – there’s no chance anyway she will do a U-turn on that. And rightly so.
I view Johnson as a personification of the British State. He/It doesn’t give, it takes. So Nicola Sturgeon shouldn’t waste any more time after tomorrow’s Westminster sitting. So, post off your S30 request and await it’s refusal.
Peter Bell has a good article on Norway’s progress to independence from Sweden, I recommend a read. No mention in the article of a S30 equivalent from Norway to Sweden.
I wish for Scotland’s independence for the much discussed reasons – social and political standards, economics, and over the past several months one person’s name has moved me on ethical grounds to wish to be rid of all influence on Scotland by the UK – Assange.
Why is he in prison?
wull @ 21:40,
There’s clearly a move afoot now to demoralise and deter potential pro-indy voters, and that’s no surprise, since things are ramping up and the BritNat armoury is otherwise totally bare.
Who is a leader and who is a dupe is sometimes hard to tell, but when you get one of the usual suspects openly advocating abstention or even contemplating a possible return to voting Labour, you can draw fairly obvious conclusions.
ianbrotherhoods search for the right word set off my puzzler brain
– the situation you describe has elements of
the ragged trousered philanthropists
with
holy willies prayer
– theres probably a long german word for it
sanctimonious-naivete-verging-on-hubris-leading-to-predictable-disaster
but I prefer – naive, thats all it is; like a guy on tinder looking for a virgin to marry – Scottish Independence must be an immaculate conception, or it is void
@Cubby,
We have your guarantee Johnson is going to fail then because the SNP will vote against him? Thats reassuring.
How many amendments tabled by the SNP made the Scotland Act ?
Give you a clue. It was less than one.d
How many above comments or below? Does it matter?
What it should tell any norma! thinking person is that there seems to be a problem with how people how SNP strategy is going.
Where once there was harmony there is now great discord, or did that pass you by.
Cadogan Enfight thinks I am a spy, an agent. If I was I would be demanding commission for the number of people who have left Wings. Im doing a great job.
Then again perhaps they were small minded enough to do that without my help. There goes my bonus.
Ian Brotherhood
Ask the SNP to explain the Brexit deal they offered to the UK State.
Cos I also can’t understand why the SNP betrayed the Remain vote of the sovereign people of Scotland.
@Al-Stuart
This idea could have legs, but why not go all in with a celebration of Rachel McKinnon’s cycling prowess and get Stu to also identify as a woman candidate to highlight another point…
My heid’s mince after spending 4 hours on the end of an SDS drill boring small holes into ancient and almost impenetrably hard concrete, which felt like a kinda good analogy of the Indy struggle tbh, but I digress…
What I’m finding frustrating is that Stu has been polling on various subjects for quite some time now, and the results appear to show that there often isn’t majority consensus from the electorate for political parties to either implement or repeal certain divisive policies / agendas / acts.
What’s up with that? I’m no political genius but do none of these politicians and their parties which rely on votes to get elected never consider – “Hmm… better check myself before I wreck myself”.
Folk that live in Scotland really need to wake up sharpish and understand that this UK union has completely hamstrung our abilities to progress in our preferred direction.
Scotland has a huge range of diverse resources that we could make far better use of than we currently can due to all significant and influential powers being retained by Westminster.
The archaic UK setup and the democratic deficit we have to deal with and are distracted by means we will be constantly compromised like a body having to deal with an infection, until we free ourselves of those chains that bind us.
Who can possibly still think after witnessing the past several years antics by those in power at Westminster (and their sinister dark money backers) that we have an acceptable system of governance.
I think they would call me a “Separatist”. I find that quite abusive really.
But I’d rather be a “Separatist” than a Subservient any day.
.
Ian Brotherhood,
Thank you for a thoughtful and balanced posting. The likes of Cadogan Ayeright and his arrogant paranoid insult hurling achieves nothing.
I am merely a former Labour voter who believes cripples should not be slaughtered by Tories…
http://www.calumslist.org
I believe in Scottish Independence and am fed up waiting. We are unlikely to be this close to what Rev Stu., wrote as the LEVERS OF POWER ever again. Boris Johnson would bite the hand off our SNP MPs NOW. He has already thrown the DUP under a bus and he LIKED them!
Boris hates we Jocks, so it would appeal to his character to boot out trouble making McCrusties out of the Union. It is worth us braving a little flak if it means we get our Section 30 order.
Yet when those of us try and explore these options, the usual suspects crawl out and hurl abuse. Fortunately most of us “ordinary” posters on Wings know who the paranoid crew are and just ignore them.
Ironic to be called a tractor though.
I joined the SNP when the New Labour Party left me around about the time Red Tory Tony Blair joined in with the Iraq war and his odious little Labour crunt James Purnell employed ATOS to start the manslaughter of the weak and disabled.
So the likes of Wull that drones on and on with mind numbing literal verbiage writings screeds of scrap, contrary to this sites guideline has some nerve to rant towards we second-class SNP members and new arrivistas from the Labour Party.
If it wasn’t for the SLAB implosion in Scotland and tons of us joining our local SNP branches, nobody here would be having this debate because the SNP would still be sitting with SIX MPs in Westminster.
This whole Brexit issue is toxic. But I believe the Rev., is onto something. The SNP in London have lost the plot. England voted for Brexit. Who are we to tell aengland they are wrong? Scotland has had enough of being ignored so why are the SNP MPs saving England from themselves?
Another decent debater put it well – and I love the elegant way Ian Brotherhood writes this…
I need a word that describes the actual world-view of someone who feels superior to his wealthy, healthy, well-dressed, happily married neighbour, despite the fact that he’s half-starved, lonely, and has no actual fabric covering his arse.
Ian, thank you again for your good humour and ability to engage in well mannered debate.
The SNP MPs at Westminster should prioritise…
INDEPENDENCE FIRST
As for those worried about MSM in Scotland ripping the pi5h out of the SNP, as Stu., said earlier: “So what.”
Mainstream media are going to slag us off whatever.
BUT WHAT MATTERS IS LOCKING BORIS AND HIS FESTERING PILE OF CARP GOVERNMENT INTO AN IRREVOCABLE SECTION 30 ORDER.
NOW.
This ain’t a perfect idea. It has bear traps and nightmares plastered all over it. But I go with the polling undertaken by Stuart Campbell and all the evidence he has narrated.
Notice BBC now referring to the 4th party at Westminster as Jo Swinson’s Lib Dems.
Now Ruth has gone to the dark side at STV they have a new Unionist champion.
Gary@7.49pm
I saw that interview as well and she was asked if she wanted to be a martyr as per Catalonia. Pig ignorant questions. The Britnat media do not like Sturgeon and they do not like Scottish independence. They do not like their possessions taken away from them.
Anyway as you posted she said a legal and internationally recognised process. No mention of sect 30.
She also said:
“I want a referendum next year and I am determined there will be one”.
So IMO we should give her the chance to deliver. We gave Salmond the chance to deliver and Sturgeon should be given the same respect.
@Ian Brotherhood
I put Colin Alexander’s reply into google translate and it said:
“I’ve got a brand new combine harvester I’ll give you the key key key key key . . . key . .”
Send lots of SNP MPs to Westminster?
What’s the point?
Second-class Evel MPs from the Scotland colony with their empty rhetoric about stopping Scotland being dragged out the EU.
They have achieved less for Scotland by attending WM, than Seinn Fein has achieved for N.I. by never attending WM.
Their time would be better spent preparing Scotland for indy.
Its a hard as nails proposal, these recent posts.
What I cannot do is vote Tory, ever. The proposal(s) doesn’t appear to be asking me to. I’m not actually clear what is being asked of me, nothing I can discern.
It’s asking the SNP do a deal with the Tories. There are councils up and down Scotland, where the SNP are doing deals with the Tories and I’m lead to believe, that is kinda how the Scottish Parliament functions as well.
The only thing I can see see I’m being asked, is to vote YES in a referendum if ever the SNP get a hold of one.
The only other possibility is being asked to vote SNP in a GE or the 2021 Scottish elections – ‘after’ the SNP have done some kind of deal with the Tories on Brexit.
Well, that’s a matter for consideration when it arises (if it arises) It may be there will be no other nominal Scottish Independence party to lend my vote to in that event, though there is no guarantee there won’t.
If the SNP do remain the only nominal and viable party of Independence at that juncture, sure I’ll have a long consideration. That consideration will be based on the fact that I won’t “red rosette” the SNP a-la Labour. If it falls that I do decide to lend them my vote for yet another “5” years at some election or other, it will indeed be a last chance. If they don’t get my vote they’ll obviously already have had the last chance and I’m sure the SNP will cry themselves to sleep about that.
There is a lot of politicking to be done before we reach the stage of the SNP asking for my vote. Much may occur between now and then. I’ve shit to do and all of it doesn’t involve the SNP. None of it involves giving a shit about things I’ve no control over either. Wake me for the revolution.
Bob Mack@11.04pm
“We have your guarantee that Johnson is going to fail then because the SNP will vote against him”
Now now Bob you know fine well I didn’t say that you naughty Bob. I gave you a valid answer to your question and it would appear that you couldn’t handle the fact. If you put out questions and people take the time to give you the courtesy of a reply you could be a bit more accepting. Next time I will pick Ian Brotherhoods question to answer – he replies with courtesy.
Your reply to my question was also not very friendly.
PS what is your rant about Cadogan got to do with me and my question.
@Ian Mhor,
If there is no referendum by 2021 ,I too will be out permanently. I will move abroad as I planned to do three years ago.
I do not need to stay here and endure years of frustration.
Dadsarmy
The SNP language has changed from: “we will not be dragged out of the EU against our will” *
to
“won’t accept” Scotland being dragged out of the EU.**
Alyn Smith gonnae fight Scotland’s corner at the heart of Europe: SNP MP candidate for Stirling.
I googled that: gave me: The Three Degrees: Giving UP Giving In:
“Givin’ up, givin’ in
I won’t be no fool again
I’m givin’ up (I’m givin’ up now)
Givin’ up (I’m givin’ up now)
Givin’ up (I’m givin’ up now)
Yeah (I’m givin’ up now)”
link to snp.org *
link to snp.org **
Bob Mack@11.41pm
“If there is no referendum by 2021, I will be out permanently”
Come on now Bob, I thought you were convinced there wouldn’t be one. You better watch it you will get in trouble with the site owner for expressing doubts.
@Colin Alexander 2:36 pm
I know how you feel,I have a similar problem,I loath the sitting MP and MSP, they are trash,I can’t vote for them, while I have vote for the party over them for years,Sturgeon’s carry on ,for a while mean I I have to stand by my principals,That might sound upity, It’s not.
As for voting for Labour , That’s a no go, Corbyn has had far too many chances to do someting for Scotland, anything in fact,but no………..
Consider just spoiling the ballot as oppose to voting for the unionist parties
Of course the return of Alex Salmond puts that in the bin
@Cubby,
I think for myself. Its called originality .Try it sometime.
stonefree
Corbyn talks the talk then backtracks and fails to deliver.
Just like the SNP’s promises of not allowing Brexit to happen to Scotland.
@Colin Alexander
It’s OK, not one of my favourites, I prefer this one:
link to youtube.com
Much more upbeat don’t you think?
The outlook which seems to prevail among some posters on Wings is that if your not a diehard SNP member your not welcome.
If you question the SNP your not welcome on here.
If you have doubts about SNP strategy your not welcome here.
If you suggest anything to push the SNP to act your not welcome.
Great way to get people on board isnt it?
As I said a in the last item’s replies, the Scottish Government, the SNP one, won’t even defy Westminster to open drug users “safe houses” to get their fix safely and with medical assistance at hand.
We’ve been telt naw, got to dae our master’s bidding.
It would only cost a few thousand, save numerous lives and have other downsream benefits. 500+ drug deaths this year (so far).
And some on here think when Mr. Johnson says Sec. 30, fuck off Jocks, your going to see some sudden stiffening of their backbone.
I’ll put in £100 myself to see Mr. Speaker Wishart get a kick up his arse.
Dadsarmy
No bad. But the lyrics of Free Ride seem more appropriate just now:
“All over the country I’ve seen it the same
Nobody’s winning at this kind of game
We’ve gotta do better, it’s time to begin
You know all the answers must come from within
So come on and take a free ride”
There’s certainly some stirring going on, to try to escalate cross-forum warfare with this on SGP:
Similar has happened a few times before.
@Bob Mack
The SNP needs to grow a pair and stop playing nicely nicely gradual approach, proactive wins not pandering. Please sir will not get independence
Bob Mack@12.16am
“If you question the SNP you are not welcome here”
Bob, perhaps you should remember that you in your post@11.04pm you are boasting that you should be getting commission for the number of people you personally have got rid off on Wings.
Not a good look, Bob.
it me….Private swim/gym club
indy yes/don’t know
people I talked to
Brexit fatigue played a part I must admit.
but over the piece …I think we’ve nailed it Stu
As Bojo says….’LETS GET TOGETHER!’
just not his club
There are silly ideas, then there are howlingly stupid ideas, but Stu Campbell standing in Perth and North Pershire against Pete Wishart requires a whole new category of stupidity. It is off the charts batshit fkn insane.
He would get creamed and potentially let in a Tory.
This site has not been affected by 77th Brigade or infiltrators from the British State.
It has been polluted by the Wings very own tin foil hat Brigade who attack anybody who DARES to question their beliefs or even (God forbid) dares to question their view of the route to indy. Its actually a form of mental illness.Mild yes, but also self induced.
Your an agent.We see who you are. We mnow how to deal with the 77th, and then to back up their case they send you a post of an army unit in full military gear. Its nuts, but thats wbat you get.
The Britidh State need to nothing to Wings, as it already has enough disturbed people as members who do their job for them,
I bid you good njght.
@Roger,
You must think then he would take votes off “I want to be the Speaker”Wishart .
@Cubby,
Its ok Cubby.Im conducttng Psychological warfare zgainst the decenceless. Techniques I learned at a warfare centre in Weston Super Mare on beagles,once they finished their cigars.
Happy now!!
Bob Mack says:
19 October, 2019 at 3:14 am
@Roger,
“You must think then he would take votes off “I want to be the Speaker”Wishart .”
Of course he would – nowhere near enough to get him elected, but maybe enough to cost Wishart the seat.
When Ian Blackford said Scotland would not be Brexited against it’s will, I believe he meant it, and what’s more important, he was right and constitutionally correct.
If you want to expose some sinister malevolence undermining Scottish Independence, then ask Ian Blackford who it is persuading him to soften his rhetoric.
I’m hearing Jo Maugham’s Case to have the Johnson deal declared illegal has been thrown out by the Court of Session. I don’t know on what grounds. At least he tried, which is more than “Constitutionally Sovereign” Scotland has done. Nobody is riding a white horse to rescue us this time.
I am just sick to the heart of this shite. We are “led” by timid fearties who might know the words of our Constitution but don’t have any faith in it. What business have they to lead us? The Constitutional argument is beaten before it begins.
If we already were a sovereign and Independent Nation, they’d “compromise” it away in order to give us a choice about whether we want to have a choice about something. At least the 1707 parliament had the miserable excuse of being bribed.
link to heraldscotland.com
Scotland doesn’t have a constitution and McKenna is a Yoon concern troll.
My god, people on this site are posting some shite these days.
Bob Mack@3.29am
Bob, you have totally lost the plot.
You never address the points I make but instead churn out a load of rubbish. You know find well I never said you were some sort of undercover agent – so why do you post this type of crap. My point was that in one post you are complaining about people being made to feel unwelcome if they don’t support the SNP and in another you are boasting that you should get commission for all the people you have driven off Wings.
@Poor Cubby,
You dont understand satire do you?
ScotsRenewables says:
19 October, 2019 at 8:56 am
Scotland doesn’t have a constitution and McKenna is a Yoon concern troll.
My god, people on this site are posting some shite these days.
In all the years of posting comments here on wings, that’s the most bleak and dismal, defeatist comment I’ve read in all that time. Even a Unionist would choke saying it.
…. go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”
Your country has a Constitution. It was created as a Constitution way ahead of it’s time, devised to frustrate and defeat the colonial aggression of our Southern neighbour, and arguably, it’s Scotland’s robust Constitution which may be the reason Scotland earned a Union with the English Sociopaths rather than suffer colonial dominion.
The weakness of Scotland’s Constitution and Sovereignty is not it’s integrity, but the cowardice of a government, whether in 1706 or is 2019, which put’s it’s own interests ahead of the Constitutional interests of the Nation, and sells out the principles of our Sovereign Constitution.
@Roger,
When Mr Wishais elected you sould normally expect him to want to sit sit beside his colleagues on the SNP benches fighting for Scotland, to add to the sma!l number kf voices we have already.
He wil! chzp our doors snd talk zbout Independence. Tnats right isnt it ?
Well no. Mr wishart has already expressed his liking of the idea of applying for speaker which vompletely nullifies his Indy voice for the SNP and his constituents.
His idea not mine
The argjment of course is he will not get the job, but the point is he tried. He thought it acceptable
I’m sorry Scottish Renewables. Maybe that was over the top.
I’m a little emotional. I’m sitting here listening to the slaughter of pheasants this morning. The poor birds have the sad misfortune to be born in a playground, not a country.
@Breeks,
Me too. Being going on all morning. I find many injured birds,
So badly hurt I can do nothing but despatch them
@Scottish Renewables
McKenna’s piece is uncomfortably accurate and articulates precisely how I feel. Sorry to disappoint.
Bob Mack@9.40pm
Total waste of time any interchange with you. That is something I do now understand.
@Cubby,
Oh you zre awful. I dont mind some interaction with you but no interchange Im afraid.
Bob Mack
Done with you.
@Cubby,
Thanks and I really really mean that.
Not only is BTL infested with Britnats and idiots there are a growing number of complete tossers posting.
.
Hi Bob Mack, Hi Kenny J.,
It is very decent of you both to join the ebryonic mini-fundraiser with £100 each for Rev Stu.
Surely this cumulative effort is reason enough to at least ask the man himself to FORENSICALLY CONSIDER the PROS and CONS of whether Stu., Campbell ANNOUNCING his candidature to stand agin Pete Wishart at Perth and Perthshire North will help secure a SECTION 30 ORDER & INDYREF2?
Five supporters here have offered to put £100 each into this to start the process and now brings the total up to £500 of the £500 needed for a PPC electoral commission deposit. This vividly illustrate the concern held by SUPPORTERS OF THE WOS POSITION extolled on this site for weeks. Albeit the ORIGINAL “nudge” to the SNP being, in part, a Wings Political Party for 2021.
Notwithstanding the rude and intemperate insults being hurled at posters wishing to escape the BROOKS WAS HERE thread outlook, I am genuinely conflicted.
Ian Blackford gave a brilliant speech in the House of Commons at today’s Brexit debate. I understand the strategy and it is a good one which is yielding results.
But Ian Blackford is saving England from itself.
Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but is it not the case that the WoS site owner Stuart Campbell has presented a solid, evidence backed case seeking that the SNP…
STOP TRYING TO SAVE ENGLAND FROM ITSELF?
and…
SECURE A SECTION 30 ORDER IN A WAY THAT GUARANTEES SCOTTISH INDYREF2?
Clearly there is a minefield to negotiate.
My interest is to remove Scotland from the Tory Governor General Alister Union Jack so him and his Conservative excumentum ilk can never again kill my friends, two of whom are on the terrible…
http://www.calumslist.org
I am virtually begging for some cogent, logical and well argued narrative to navigate a way out of this festering Groundhog Day situation where the SNP in London persist in prioritizing the interests of Brexit voting England ahead of Independence seeking Scotland.
Politics is all about ups and downs. We’ve had our ups and I now see a big down coming. Next year will see Alex Salmond in the headlines on a daily basis with his impending court case no doubt offering up loads of lurid accusations which will have the press corps salivating. Sturgeon meanwhile will be facing a leadership challenge as a consequence of her extreme political correctness coupled with a track record on Brexit which is likely to end up alienating remainers and leavers alike.
The case for independence needs to be put forward with passion by a new leader totally committed to the cause. Someone who sees the positives in running our own affairs and is not afraid to speak out. Let’s hope we can find one.
Thought these words especially appropriate tonight…
Fareweel to a’ our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev’n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam’d in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An’ Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England’s province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.
What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro’ many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling ("Tractor" - Ed)’s wages.
The English stell we could disdain,
Secure in valour’s station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.
O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi’ Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I’ll mak this declaration;
We’re bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.
link to youtube.com
we vote for them to at least show the world that we actually still have a parliament, and have nation status.
___________________________________________________
Unfortunately, not one recognised by the UN,as we are regularly told by the various quiz shows such as pointless.
Q. name a country with 5 letters or less.
A. Wales.
100 points for a wrong answer.
According to Pointless, Wales is not recognised as a country, it is the UK of GB and NI that is recognised, not England, Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales.
You see what we are up against?