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Wings Over Scotland

At midnight all the agents

Posted on May 06, 2019 by

On Saturday, for the second year in a row, there was a huge and joyous independence march through the centre of Glasgow, which passed off with no incidents, arrests or disturbances despite attempted provocation from a small handful of abusive Unionist bigots led by a Holocaust denier.

Most of the Sunday papers carried largely neutral and factual reports of the event, of varying quality and size, with only a comical piece of hysteria in the extremist Scottish Daily Express standing out as objectionable for its ridiculous headline (and even then the actual copy barely mentioned the march at all).

But also for the second year in a row, one paper – or to be more specific, one man – took a rather more negative slant.

The Herald On Sunday ran with a four-page cover splash by former Sunday Herald editor Neil Mackay about vile “cybernats” having war declared on them by the SNP.

It followed a similar extended rant by Mackay following the previous year’s Glasgow march, at which the ostensibly pro-independence Sunday paper had infuriated readers by portraying the march as a violent clash between rival mobs and using it to attack the SNP, then using the reaction as an excuse for a three-page hyperbolic outrage piece on – you guessed it – vile “cybernats”.

The Yes movement gets very little positive coverage in the media, so many people remarked that it was curious for a professed independence supporter to spurn two such rare opportunities to show the movement at its best, and to instead undermine it by sowing internal anger and division, and gleefully hand opponents a weapon with which to beat it (which they of course seized eagerly).

Rather remarkably, Mackay – who had carefully laid the groundwork for the piece with a column in the Herald earlier that week, and who has a long track record of causing bitter ructions in the Yes movement at key moments – attempted to pass the timing off as a coincidence.

(In the column Mackay had attacked marches as “the gesture politics of pointless parades”, claimed the movement now only comprised “the abusive, the vulgar, the reactionary [and] the dumb”, and proposed the notion that any second referendum on independence should impose a threshold of 60% for victory, meaning that if Yes won the vote by 59% to 41% independence would still be rejected. That’s, let’s say, an interesting position for an independence supporter to take.)

A significant part of Sunday’s article comprised thinly-veiled attacks by Mackay on this site, despite none of the named SNP “top brass” having mentioned it.

(We’re a bit confused as to how he arrived at the conclusion that the defamation case “focused attention on conduct online by a minority of vocal Yes supporters”. None of those were mentioned in court. The case focused on Kezia Dugdale being found to have made untrue and defamatory smears.)

But this site has done more than most to try to damp down the extremities of online abuse. We maintain a frequently-updated and customisable Twitter blocklist to which anyone can subscribe, containing thousands of abusive accounts – Yes and No alike – which seek to troll and provoke, and have repeatedly urged readers not to become drawn into extended shouting matches with them.

(It would be silly to deny that we use some fruity language ourselves from time to time on social media, of course, but it’s usually a single “F— off” immediately before adding someone to said blocklist. Ironically the blocklist itself – a positive and practical attempt to reduce the amount of antagonism on Twitter – is regularly used as a reason to aim more abuse in our direction.)

But what particularly upset many Yes supporters this weekend was the participation of several SNP politicians in Mackay’s obsessive and “coincidentally”-timed attacks. And a part of the article contained a telling rationalisation from one of them.

“It isn’t just so-called ‘cybernats’ that worry Alyn Smith. He’s concerned about possible ‘false flag’ accounts on social media posing as Yes supporters. ‘There are vast amounts of Yes-identifying accounts that are signalling against the SNP and causing arguments among the Yes side,’ he says.

‘On Twitter there are clearly and demonstrably phoney accounts. I’ve got to the point where unless I see a name and a face, I don’t think that half of this is genuine … It is beyond doubt that there are phoney Yes accounts that are actually not on the Yes side, and indeed there are phoney unionist accounts as well that are there to be abusive.’

Smith points out that in the abortion debate in America, Russian troll farms ramped up both sides of the argument. ‘This can be easily done,’ he says.

Smith is also concerned about hostile foreign interference in domestic politics. He recalls making a speech where ‘if I didn’t mention Russia, I certainly mentioned dark forces trying to influence the election’. He adds that he quickly received messages saying things like ‘I hope you die’ which he believes were ‘clearly coming out of the same troll farm in Vladivostok’.”

Let’s assume Smith is right about that, because he almost certainly is. It’s entirely likely that both hostile governments (whether at home or abroad) and false-flag Unionists are involved in ongoing efforts to covertly influence the debate for their own reasons. The UK government quite openly maintains a military-intelligence unit dedicated to precisely such pursuits, so it seems unlikely that other countries don’t.

Indeed, as a pro-indy lawyer friend of ours is fond of saying, “Speaking as a British taxpayer, if the UK security services AREN’T actively infiltrating and subverting the Yes movement I want my money back”.

But what Smith fails to do is follow that thinking to its logical conclusion. If we assume that some abusive Yes accounts are indeed Russian troll operations or Unionist false flags set up to discredit the independence movement, what would they be hoping to achieve? What would they regard as a good day at the office?

One might fairly imagine that the answer “a succession of large articles in broadsheet newspapers about how dreadful ‘cybernats’ are, ideally all penned by a supposed independence supporter, backed by others echoing Unionist tropes about ‘fascism’ and endorsed by senior SNP figures” would be quite near the top of their list of goals.

Most troll accounts are anonymous, have tiny numbers of followers and their tweets are seen or heeded by almost nobody. (Quite aside from the fact that Twitter itself is already a tiny minority interest anyway.) The only way to turn them into a meaningful weapon against the Yes movement is to massively amplify them via the media.

If we were running an MI5 smear factory and managed to get a four-page cover story about terrible cybernats – written by an ostensibly pro-Yes journalist and seemingly officially backed by the SNP – into a newspaper, creating negative headlines in the Unionist press AND massive discord within the independence movement on a day when it was otherwise generating hugely positive imagery and coverage, we’d take the rest of the week off and throw a massive party.

If we’d managed to get the same guy to pull the exact same trick two years running, we’d be demanding a hefty bonus as well.

Especially if both he and his newspapers had been heavily engaged for some years in attempting to deflect suspicion by calling everyone else an MI5 plant.

And if he’d also taken over the country’s only pro-indy Sunday paper at a time when its sales were rocketing, and then slashed its circulation in half to the point where it was closed down entirely and replaced with a Unionist version, well, trebles all round.

(In the years when there HASN’T been a march, incidentally, Mackay has still diligently tried to smear the movement as being infested with a “creepy fruitcake crackpot cult”. He’s as regular as a train-station clock made of All-Bran.)

Now, we don’t think Alyn Smith, Angus Robertson and Stewart McDonald – who were all phoned up individually by Neil Mackay rather than them collectively approaching him – are in the pay of either the Kremlin or MI5. (Well, okay, if we’re being absolutely scrupulously honest we’re pretty sure about two of them.)

But they might want to take a moment to think about what those entities would want from them if they were, and whether in that case it might be a good idea not to keep giving it to them for free.

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  1. 06 05 19 12:56

    At midnight all the agents | speymouth

  2. 07 05 19 15:12

    A Quiet Word about the Debate – scotlandisdifferent

  3. 07 05 19 18:35

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  4. 07 05 19 20:18

    Scottish independence won’t just be won by nuance and persuasion | My Little Underground

  5. 11 05 19 22:00

    Robin McAlpine – We March Because You’re Failing Us – Brave New Europe

456 to “At midnight all the agents”

  1. ScotsRenewables

    Great article Stu, I think we’ve all been a little depressed over this – particularly Angus’s picture being gratuitously splashed under lying banner headlines.

    It’s a tricky one. If the odious McKay phoned Angus he would feel obliged to say something anodyne, while knowing full well it would appear under a vicious and misleading headline.

  2. Brian Powell

    Add to that Neil MacKay’s repeated two page spreads attempting to split the SNP vote and we see that the foreign powers firth of the UK and in Westminster are getting quite a good deal.

  3. Brian Powell

    Amazingly the Guardian gave a great series of photos of the joyful and positive marchers.

  4. Muscleguy

    Well said. Not to mention Craig Murray during the last IndyRef stated he saw a man who he knows to be an MI5 agent going into an anonymous building in Glasgow. Prima facie evidence that the security services were active.

    It’s fun to look around the group at strategy meetings and wonder who might be reporting to MI5 or Special Branch. But not often, paranoia is not helpful and if you are engaged in lawful politics what do we have to fear?

    Just beware anyone who might be acting as an agent provocateur.

  5. Greg Drysdale

    I read a few tweets yesterday of SNP members planning to cancel their membership. Why would they agree to telephone interviews they KNOW will twist their words or use them at an inappropriate time? Alyn, Angus and Stewart need to realise THEY are damaging the party support by agreeing to these interviews, NOT the peaceful marchers and their online accounts. I’m a little bit pissed off today 🙁

  6. jimnarlene

    “Tae blame oorsels as ithers blame us”, as Burns might have said.

  7. Robin Stevenson

    Neil Mackay on the payroll of MI5, who’d have thought? (other than me and another few hundred thousand)

  8. FranFaeFife

    Neil MacKay ran the Sunday Herald into the ground with all the anti indy supporter nonsense combined with promotion of hard-left, pro-Corbyn RISE members all attacking the SNP and yessers.

    That front page of union flags after last year’s Glasgow march was the last straw for many.

    As for Alan Smyth, can he not see how his self righteous preaching about online abuse looks when he hasn’t ever publicly condemned his boyfriend Jordon Henderson for his disgraceful, vulgar smearing of Joan McAlpine and other women who are speaking up about the risks of self sex ID?

    Not to mention Henderson’s sinister threats to get Joan deselected. Co-incidentally at the same time Smyth was about to lose his EU seat and might be hoping to replace it with one at Holyrood…

  9. The Tree of Liberty

    Well said, sir.

  10. Breeks

    I read this Tweet weeks ago.

    I don’t follow Alyn Smith on Twitter, but his concern about fake persona on Twitter a) isn’t new, and b) wasn’t anti Cybernat in theme.

    I’ll be honest, I think an App to root out bots sounds about as reliable and trustworthy as the bots themselves, but EVERYBODY has to understand the BritNat Establishment wants YES online disrupted and compromised.

    Be cautious, be streetwise, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. If our presence online is diminished, it is only the BritNat establishment which benefits.

  11. Gordon Henderson

    Excellent piece as ever Rev –
    Don’t want to become a target but have also noticed the nuance & timing of this Heralds writer. Remember he’s a ‘right on dude’ and chooses to write for the Herald not the National (Same stable – go figure ?). Says he’s a YES advocate but really ? really ?
    I think he shadows Massie in terms of impartiality.
    From what I’ve seen he prefers to draw friendly fire rather than advocate Independence to any great extent.
    Maybe others have evidence that could persuade me otherwise ?

  12. ScotsRenewables

    Greg Drysdale says:
    6 May, 2019 at 11:28
    Why would they agree to telephone interviews they KNOW will twist their words or use them at an inappropriate time?

    Perhaps because they know exactly how a refusal to comment would be reported?

  13. Frank Gillougley

    Yes, it’s their club with their ‘rules’. And we the majority, whom they discuss on our behalf (as if we actually mattered), are on the outside. But, we don’t even want want in to their corrupt club or to influence their propaganda, we’ll just keep on speaking the trooth to power.

    Six O’Clock News – Tom Leonard

    this is thi
    six a clock
    news thi
    man said n
    thi reason
    a talk wia
    BBC accent
    iz coz yi
    widny wahnt
    mi ti talk
    aboot thi
    trooth wia
    voice lik
    wanna yoo
    scruff. if
    a toktaboot
    thi trooth
    lik wanna yoo
    scruff yi
    widny thingk
    it wuz troo.
    jist wanna yoo
    scruff tokn.
    thirza right
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    ana right way
    to tok it. this
    is me tokn yir
    right way a
    spellin. this
    is ma trooth.
    yooz doant no
    thi trooth
    yirsellz cawz
    yi canny talk
    right. this is
    the six a clock
    nyooz. belt up.

  14. Dr Jim

    Newspapers target audience are not Internet users, they target the uninformed not the informed who know what’s going on

    The newspapers job is to tell the people who don’t know anything that they must know what the newspapers tell them is true, whether it is or not

    Did the tree in the woods make a noise when it fell, well the newspapers are there to tell you it damn well did and you should be concerned about it, because it was an awful noise that the SNP are responsible for

  15. fillofficer

    perfect post rev.
    i hope all those deflated marchers have had their eyes opened now, never to unsee.
    i lurk here & twitter
    increasingly disbelieving alleged yessers
    been reading this blog since 2014
    spotted plenty provocateurs
    ayes wide open

  16. yesindyref2


    Thanks for that, I had a rant in the last thread about this. Including that Mackay posted the article, and it was CLOSED TO COMMENT. He didn’t even have the guts to accept criticism below the line. A coward.

    A data point, in that earlier in the week article Mackay ridiculed marchers, he doesn’t like marches or marchers.

  17. Beverley Knight

    Some commentators here seem unaware that Angus Robertson tweeted a link to the Herald’s front page whilst endorsing the contents of the article. THIS is why so many Yessers are angry. It’s not just the usual case of the unionist press twisting things. Angus is a smart political operator. He is hardly naive. What his motivation was is baffling. But he was not misquoted. His words were not taken out of context. He wasn’t tricked. He was fully on board with the article AND the headline.

  18. Supporter

    Excellent article Wings. Theres no doubt Mackays piece was aimed at you and other prominent robust YESSERS.

  19. Republicofscotland

    Good article Rev, we’d be stark raving mad not to think the British state hasnt already infiltrated the Yes movement, or higher and is currently planning ways in which to undermine it and discredit it.

    As you rightly say their voice is vastly amplified by the British media. How can we counter such tactics?

    First of all we much be on our best behaviour, lets not give them ammunition to use against us. Secondly we must use facts as our weapons of choice, thirdly and most importantly we must convince enough folk of the bendfits of leaving the union, we must try and reach a tipping point, where British statecraft cannot change enough minds to matter.

  20. A C Bruce

    I got called out yesterday, on the previous thread, for saying Smith, McDonald and Robertson were undermining the independence movement. I’m still appalled at their behaviour but not surprised at the Herald; it was an open goal.

    As for Pete Wishart and his application for the Speaker’s post, on the grounds that he will reform the HoC, and it would be his parting gift. The massive salary, perks and grace and favour accommodation having nothing to do with it – of course not. He’s clearly an SNP MP who has got too comfy in Westminster.

    SNP must be losing support over these self inflicted gaffes. Some of these senior people should be dumped – they’re doing the Scottish independence movement no favours.

  21. ScotsRenewables

    Beverly Knight, can you please post a link to the tweet by Angus that you mention?

  22. jfngw

    This is a man that took an increasing circulation and ended with the paper being closed, emerging again as basically a unionist perspective journal. He works for it, he proclaims his indy support, in my book actions speak louder than words. Maybe he is just monetising unionism.

  23. Legerwood

    They may have been telephoned by Mr McKay and asked and asked for some comments but once they make the comments they have no control over where and when they will be used. Were they told when the article would appear? Or was it a case of- ‘I am writing an article on…”

    In one case, Mr Robertson, his reported comments on the subject were similar to his remarks made at a fringe meeting held during the recent SNP conference and reported in the Herald on 28th April in an article: “SNP will never be able to manage cybernats, says Angus Robertson”. Tom Gordon was the reporter on that occasion if I remember correctly.

    So yesterday the Herald recycled/rehashed a story it had already reported but with a few additional comments from other people to flesh it out.

    So nothing new and if you actually read the articles in the Sunday Herald absolutely nothing to justify the headline about ‘SNP declaring war…’ But the headline was enough to set some people coursing after the hare set running by the MSM.

    And furthermore, nothing that has not been said on here times without number about extreme comments putting people off or ‘paid’ trolls derailing threads.h.

    This happens time after time people dancing to the MSM tune. When are people going to learn not to rise to the bait?

  24. Dorothy Devine

    yesindyref2 , but any criticism would be construed as ‘nasty cybernat ‘ activity.

    These so called journalists know fine well that they are misleading / lying / writing fiction and they have been allowed to do so for such a lengthy time that they are smugly confident that they can continue undisturbed.

    The only thing that will stop them is the lack of paper sales and then the closure of the works. May that happen sooner rather than later.

  25. gordoz

    Bang on the money as ever.
    Wider Yes movement still don’t get the popularity of WoS ?
    Can’t imagine where we’d get reliable well analysed info from if not this site & the National / iScot / weegingerdug / Scotgoespop / Thoughtcontrolscotland ?

  26. yesindyref2

    On that article earlier in the week ( there was this great comment with 220 upvotes:

    Change is coming. How and when and precisely what form is not yet clear. But there is an energy about the place, with plus and minus electorate buzzing around, gathering pace and momentum. It’s been a slow burner since 2014. If you don’t feel it, then you’re not listening or you don’t want to. The only response from those who wish to preserve the status quo has been a tired mantra that the decision five years ago was added to Moses’ tablet and is somehow immutable.
    Saturday will be another expression of the positive. While we rely on our leaders to direct that energy, a successful outcome and a successful country depends almost entirely on those who want to make it work. That energy, if sustained, will address Neil Mackay’s concerns in the same unconscious way a hand addresses a fly.
    I appreciate there is comfort in not changing anything in life. It gives the appearance of certainty and security. I appreciate change gives the appearance of the opposite. The difference between the two dictates the speed and scope of change. The Scots are a canny folk. They are taking their time. But they’re not standing still. Confidence will effect Independence; lack of confidence will save the Union.

    I don’t usually give names of posters, in case they want to keep apart from other fora.

    All Mackay could say was this:

    Even worse than the gesture politics of pointless parades is the dominance of ugly voices among the grassroots.” and this

    we’re left with well-meaning marchers going nowhere“.

    That’s what the took thinks of us 100,000 who went on the march. I was standing all through in George Square, and there were quite a few who left the march for a rest in the 1 hour 40 minutes it took to pass. And there was a 91 year old lifelong Indy supporter who loads of people stopped to shake hands and have a photo taken with her, just along from me.

    What does Neil Mackay think of that?

    we’re left with well-meaning marchers going nowhere“.

    I think he’s looking for a job with the Express. He’ll fit in fine.

  27. Grouse Beater

    Our elected representatives were well and truly suckered – and not for the first time the SNP assisted the Unionist censorship.

    Where is their political guile, their resolve, their dignity?

    Here is the march as I and many thousands like me experienced it:

  28. ScotsRenewables

    Found it, Beverly, and replied:

    Angus, Instead of harming the movement by endorsing daft articles like this, why not communicate DIRECTLY with those you consider to be offenders?

  29. jfngw


    It’s true none of know how these SNP figures were approached apart by phone. They may have been let to believe it was a piece about cyber abuse in general rather than just focusing on the Yes supporters. But these people can’t be naive enough to believe reporters and a quick look at someone’s track record should raise a red flag.

    If they did know the exact detail of the articles I suspect they have lost more support than they gained from soft no’s.

  30. Cubby

    Another excellent arrive by the site owner. The only downside is that I would have liked to have seen the DAVID MUNDELL IS A LIAR retained for longer because that really does expose both Mundell and Better Together as blatant liars. Oh well can’t have everything you want in life but politicians and a media that don’t lie through their teeth would be nice.

  31. Another Union Dividend

    Excellent article by Wee Ginger Dug on latest Cybernat smears

  32. CameronB Brodie

    Perhaps Neil Mackay is simply a bit of a snob who fears the great ‘unwashed’.

    Social Movements and Social Classes

  33. HandandShrimp

    I take issue with the whole premise that a site like Wings is remotely the same as vicious on line trolls. There are lots of discussion forums where people vent with varying degrees of intemperance on every subject under the sun. Why shouldn’t they? and no one is forced to go and read such sites. I never waste my time reading unionist sites. I wouldn’t expect to read anything complimentary about pro independence people there. Indeed, the little I have seen would suggest they are far more intemperate and death threaty than anything I have ever seen on Yes sites.

    On the other hand, individuals who stalk other individuals with abusive messages and death threats are obviously reprehensible and I don’t think anyone here would support such behaviour. There is a serious want with people who pursue anonymous poison pen letter behaviour. Always has been always will be. The internet just allows them to be more prolific and immediate.

    It is this latter group that I believe Alan Smyth et al are talking about. It is the media that uses a perfectly sane condemnation in order to silence troublesome alternative media sites who may be robust in their language of dissection but never advocate or promote violence or the kind of behaviour mentioned above.

    The Yes movement doesn’t need or want trolls. It does need and want good media analysis sites like Wings, Scot goes Pop, Peat Worrier, and the Wee Ginger Dug.

  34. yesindyref2

    @Dorothy Devine
    I was on the article quite early and was going to post – mildly – some corrections and counter-points as is my wont.

    It was deliberately closed in my opinion, so that it would create a twitterstorm and Mackay could say “I told you so”, or as he did say in a tweet “A day of endless abuse for reporting a story accurately,” and even worse: “make of this circular firing squad behaviour

    He fired the first shot of the “circular firing squad”. And he did it deliberately.


  35. Scotspine


    MI5 are known to have a field office in Glasgow.

  36. Dave McEwan Hill

    Nobody I know has even noticed this issue and the Sunday Herald is not an independence supporting paper.

  37. John Smith

    whats not mentioned is the illegal 33′ Unit based in Edinburgh. 33 Unit is supposed to compliment 77 Brigade in operations. when 33 Unit was stationed in Edinburgh the city’s residents lost its last remaining semblance of privacy. 33 Unit’s presence in Scotland is in direct contravention of the Act of Union 1707. It breaks several articles within the agreement. If you live in the greater Edinburgh area and use a electronic device(well who doesant these days) 33′ Unit will have a copy of all your activites online. all illegal. All in direct contravention of European human rights act.

    With regard to the Herald newspaper its owners are the company “Newsquest” which is owned by the American Gannett Company. Gannett company in the past has been used by the CIA and US State Dept to push US state propaganda under the guise of “news”. All Newsquest newspaper in the UK should be seen has being compromised

  38. Capella

    Great article and good comment from Legerwood. There are clearly a lot of YES supporters who are still capable of being surprised by the duplicity of the unionist press. This article will go some way to enlightening them.

    This is why they hate WoS with a vengeance. Neil Mackay and Kezia Dugdale present themselves as “healthy” journalists. They are monetizing unionism while sneering at others who rely on genuine support from readers and not state handouts via the BBC.
    Wee Ginger Dug has a good article on this.

    The Herald is sinking like a stone and no amount of media puffing will reverse their demise.

  39. findlay farquaharson

    weekend herald story nicely set up by a bbc reporters antagonising tweet , you would think it was a set up if we didnt know how honourable the bbc and print media are.

  40. CameronB Brodie

    @Neil Mackay
    You may be more assistance to the movement if you weren’t such a limp moralist.

    Toward a Class-Cultural Theory of Social Movements: Reinterpreting New Social Movements


    This paper examines the relationship between social class and social mobilization through reviewing the case of new social movements. The middle-class membership of new social movements is well documented but poorly explained by current New Class, New Social Movement, and Cultural Shift theories. These theories fail to recognize the interdependence between interests, values, and expressed ideas. Class culture provides an alternative framework for interpreting the complex relationships between class interests and consciousness in these movements.

    Through a comparison of working- and middle-class cultures, it is proposed that social class orders consciousness and shapes the interpretation of interests. Class cultures produce distinct class forms of political and organizational behavior while not defining any particular content of movement issues or politics. In particular, the middle-class membership of new social movements is explained by the cultural form of these movements which is distinctly middle class.

    new social movements, social movements, working class—politics, middle class—politics, class culture

  41. Robert Louis

    This article by REV Stu is an excellent piece of analysis.

    I am now starting to think that there are some high up in the SNP, who became used to nearly a decade of almost unwavering support for everything they did. I myself, and others did just that, defending them to the hilt on here and, before wings, on ‘newsnet Scotland’ and in English owned newspapers. Even when I was not 100% sure of things, I defended them for fear of giving the anti independence media some fodder. However, I truly NEVER doubted the judgement of Alex Salmond. Not once.

    But my patience has wore out.

    Now, however, I think those same folks high up in the SNP do not like ,for one second the fact that some folk (I think rightly) are questioning their strategy for independence. It irks them, that where in the past their was total loyalty, folk are now raising questions.

    I have been posting online about the SNP and independence for well over a decade, and long before wings, but only very recently, have I questioned SNP indy strategy. Prior to that I defended them to the hilt. Indeed on the morning after indyref1, I was on these message boards, trying to get enthusiasm going again.

    Yet because I have in recent months decided to question the SNP indy strategy (and left the SNP), I have been called an agitator and yoon troll etc..

    Perhaps the time of Angus Robertson, Alyn Smith and others, would be better spent trying to work with ALL indy supporters constructively, trying to find out WHY they are not happy, rather than just decrying them because they dared question the SNP strategy. Their really might be an awful lot they could learn.

    I guess, though that this might be what happens, when you have prolonged inertia rather than progress.

  42. Calum McKay

    So we have papers and bbc misrepresenting the politics of, and life in, Scotland.

    They do this in the belief it helps secure a union their pay masters wish to continue.

    These pay masters are not answerable to the Scottish people. In some cases we don’t know who they are, or why they do what they do!

    The journalists and reporters take their guidance form the pay masters down through the editorial and management hierarchy. The journalists and reporters salary and living standards are dependent upon them producing the line as directed by the pay masters, etc.

    When the stories emerge in the public arena, they are biased, inaccurate and designed to mislead.

    What are supporters of Scottish independence supposed to do – blindly accept this and move on? Or point out lies and misinformation?

    How do you point out lies and misinformation without being critical and or criticising the author and or their paper or tv / radio channel?

    Yes I agree there are boundaries we should not cross, but are people who support Scottish independence more strident than British nationalists. I”d contend we are not, if anything we are far more reserved and less insulting.

    As for the Herald, 75% of the posters lean towards independence, the unionist 25%, some of their post need to be seen to be believed, I don”t even look at the Hootsman, it has a reputation of being rabidly anti Scottish and anti SNP.

    Independence supporter are not saints, there is room for improvement, but in comparison to some unionist comment and brexiteer comments, we are a beacon of reason!

  43. Bob Mack

    Great article Rev. What better way to destroy the unity of a movement than to initiate decay from inside that very movement. I think the SNP are being “nobbled” by some of their very own, and members of the media with Uriah Heep promises of even handedness should they cooperate.

    All lies and deception of course.

    However, the movement for Indy only needs the SNP momentum towards independence as a manifesto commitment in order to survive. I do not like the approach currently in use towards Indy but I will continue to vote for the only party who make it possible. Anything else would be self serving and foolish.

    We are independence not the SNP. It is us the people.

    Who knows. In a few years there may well be other parties who offer the same, but in a more determined fashion. Time will tell.

    Meanwhile those whom we subscribe to and vote for must learn some respect and appreciation of that fact. I am a cybernat, and I would match that against anyone else’s reputation in any field.

  44. Richard Hunter

    It’s interesting seeing Labour’s “anti-semitism” problem beside the SNP’s supposed social media problems since both of them I have long regarded as entirely imaginary. They show up the media in a very sinister light and unflattering light as being willing to think something is real just because someone is talking about it.

  45. Bob Mack

    Case in point. Has anyone seen a story,tweet or communication of any sort from any of the SNP members quoted denying this McKay version of events?

  46. Abulhaq

    The idea that the independence movement has not been inflitrated already by the security services is rather naïve. Bold fact, Scottish independence is a threat to the territorial integrity of the British state. The system is unlikely to view that with equanimity. The independence movement and its advocates will have been on the radar for decades.
    The black propaganda about cybernats, oh so nasty, has a familiar divisive, self-injuring ring to it.
    Create mutual suspicion, foster doubt, confuse aims and goals, promote fear, politically castrate…
    Contemporary Scottish politics is not a pursuit for ladies and gentlemen with polite manners.
    Scotland’s Unionist Cyborg #1 could tell you that for nothing.

  47. liz

    Alyn Smith really angered me.
    His fucking boyfriend was the biggest abuser of Joan McAlpine and any who supported her, saying he was looking forward to conference so he could tell us all to fuck off, released private information to the press to get three more women MSPs into trouble.
    Said he was going to work tirelessly to have her removed as MSP.

    Alan was shown examples of women whose names and faces were on their accounts,being mercilessly attacked on line, one got sacked for saying transwomen are not women, a mother had her entire family threatened and don’t mention what’s happening to Joanna Cherry and he thinks we’re bots for not putting our real names out there, the man’s a hypocritical buffoon.

    Angus R has always been too smug for my liking and don’t get me started on that ‘sees Russians under the bed’, Stewart McD.

    They have done a lot of damage this weekend, not to the indy movement but to themselves

  48. Tam Fae Somewhere

    This appeared in my LinkedIn feed today

    Norway’s $1.1 trillion wealth fund has enjoyed a record quarter. The world’s largest sovereign wealth investor earned a return of 9.1% on its investments in Q1, gaining $84 billion — or $16,000 per citizen.

    That is what Scotland has missed out on due to Westminster appropriating that money.

    That is why the Establishment doesn’t want to lose Scotland.

  49. Hamish100

    “Hi Angus, or any other well known SNP or Independence figure it’s Neil McKay here. How’s things? I wonder if you could…….”click” Hello? Hello? Shit, This phone keeps cutting off,”

    Please note SNp persons MSP’s Mp’s and Councillors.

    Your not elected to be patsys for the Unionist Herald.


  50. ScotsRenewables

    OK, cool the beans people.

    So lots of you are unhappy about the way certain SNP people have behaved. Well, instead of slagging them off on here and fuelling the ‘evil cybernat/false flag’ accusations why not email/write DIRECTLY to them and engage them in private correspondence?


    I have written a longish email to Angus, with my view of these events, and am hoping that my reasoned explanation of how some of us are feeling will give him some pause for thought. Of course, if I am the only one to write it will not – but if hundreds or thousands of us do, and if we make our emails reasoned and moderate, it may help ground some of these figureheads who are perhaps getting a little distant from their voters and supporters.

  51. Capella

    @ Liz 12.33 – interesting comment about all three individuals and I completely agree that the damage they have done is to themselves. Same goes for Neil Mackay although he vacated the moral high ground a long time ago. Another willing shill.

  52. Rev. Stuart Campbell

    “Perhaps because they know exactly how a refusal to comment would be reported?”

    You can’t make a four-page front cover splash out of “no comment”.

  53. jfngw

    I’m not voting SNP to have them ensconced at Westminster, I’m voting to get them out of there permanently. If there is no progress by the 2022 election (assuming there isn’t one before then) I am beginning to think it would be just as effective not voting at WM elections, Scottish MP’s rarely make a difference there anyway.

    If all the SNP support didn’t vote then the turnout in 2017 would have been under 42%, that is 58% rejecting the WM parliament. Obviously the unionists would ignore this, but it would dent the claim of being democratic will of the people, the winners achieving under 19% of the registered voters.

  54. bookie from hell

    neil should go on a march

    within 100yds every social class

    you hear conversations

    guy in front of me yelling, did it in his own way ,not abusive but raw

    women beside me , sounds very posh but equally ethusiastic

    (edinburgh march)

  55. Jim McIntosh

    jfngw says:
    6 May, 2019 at 12:02 pm

    If they did know the exact detail of the articles I suspect they have lost more support than they gained from soft no’s.

    They did know, in fact MacDonald and Nicholson both linked to the article.

  56. mogabee

    Spot on article Stu.

    Nodded vigorously to-
    Robert Louis and Liz in particular but many others saying how many of us feel.

    Whenever I go along to any constituency meetings the Wings blog post of the day is on most folks lips. So the hierarchy dissing the readers of this and other blogs along with online social media is deeply, deeply troubling.

    WE are the deliverers of leaflets.

    WE are those persuading, calling at doors, streetstalls, shops and any number of events to explain why indy is the right direction.

    WE are the people who undoubtedly help to facilitate meetings.

    WE seem to be the target of SNP politicians either overtly or implicitly by their close-mouthed ‘support’.

    WE are the ones putting our collective hands in our pockets.

    Many would do well to remember these points…

  57. CameronB Brodie

    Ah, so Alyn Smith’s a woke denier of biological science and human anthropology?

  58. ScotsRenewables

    You can’t make a four-page front cover splash out of “no comment”

    Hmmm . . . I wonder . . . .

  59. Gullaneno4

    Are we not getting a bit inward looking and precious about this.

    Can someone flag up the current Herald circulation figures, they are a nearly insignificant number.
    Less than many local newspapers.

    Well done to those on the march all 40k to 125k of you.
    No incidents or arrests and loads of folk having a good time.
    We seem to be on a winning formula with this, maybees need to get a bit creative with some of the venues when the actual number of marchers are obvious, eg up Arthurs Seat [fittest first]
    I always associate big numbers with football/theatre venues.
    I think the Glasgow March could easily have filled Murrayfield [60,000 capacity]

  60. Vestas

    Current SNP leadership are far too comfortable & senior MPs/MSPs are now so far inside their own bubbles they have little to no idea about the grassroots. I’ve been saying it now for 2-3 years & I’ve now reached the stage I don’t believe we’ll get another indyref vote out of them this side of 2025.

    Problem is they’re currently the only game in town for independence & if we don’t vote for them then the unionists will render ScotParl permanently impotent within a single parliament.

    Gods help the SNP if another viable indy movement/party ever appears….

  61. mosstrooper

    The SNP have been running scared of the Press for as long as I can remember.On one occasionthe late Alex Ewing made a
    large puppet of Willie Ross which could be made to dance and written above it were the words “Puppet on a string” which was also a hit song by Sandy Shaw. this was being carried during one of the Bannockburn marches until we were approached by a local SNP councillor who said that it was scaring the old people and might be reported in the papers.
    On another occasion, during the annual conference the Daily Retard ran page after page attacking the SNP. I cut out the articles and together with a printed note which read “know thine enemy” stuck them on the glass doors leading into the conference hall. The executive went crazy demandkng to know who bad done this dreadful thing and that we mustn’t upset the newspapers. This was 50 years ago. How’s that love the MSM and they’ll love us working out…?

  62. Giving Goose

    Neil Mackay is a British Nationalist and as such he’s in the company of Boris Johnstone, Nigel Farage, Teresa May & Tommy Robinson.
    Just let that sink in for a moment.
    Neil Mackay & Fascist Tommy on the same team.

  63. Artyhetty

    Excellent article Stuart.

    I was thinking about this yesterday, about how the independence movement, if we can call it that, I prefer it to ‘yes’ most of the time, has to rely on the internet and so called social media to share information, to counter the 100% anti Scottish independence, anti SNP, so called ‘main stream media’.

    The Britnat establishment and their dodgy pals around the globe, hate the fact that their propaganda does not always control the narrative these days, like they could rely on it to do in the past.

    So they have to use so called, ‘bloggers’ and ‘social media’
    to attack the civic movements they want to take down. It’s a classic tactic, and it works. It’s a known fact that once a person or movement is portrayed in a negative light, it’s sticks in peoples’ minds.

    That means that the establishment can manipulate the people, and basically divide and rule, via the internet. Then as Stuart points out, they take it to the wider population, who are non the wiser to what is actually taking place.

    Is it a form of gas lighting? For Mackay to pose as pro independence, but to attack that very independence movement, is quite abusive. Now they are using key SNP people to ramp up the hatred towards and fear of independence supporters and those who counter the media’s, ie BBC and others’ outright lies.

    It works, so job done, to a certain extent. We just need to keep a cool head, stay on track, stay focused and call out their lies, and at the same time, watch out for ‘troll’s.

    I see Nicola Sturgeon FM, said the problem is about ‘trolls’ and she was right to do that.

    Really, the daily rags, the BBC and their pals, are the real trolls though, disseminating falsehoods, attempting to demonise the people they wish just didn’t exist, and attempting to sow division within the independence movement.

    Scotland is being attacked, in a subtle, pyschological manner, and it’s disturbing. As long as people can manage to keep an open mind and not be drawn in, and as long as they do not allow Britnats to divide them, we have a chance to counter the propaganda being used against the Scottish people and the Scottish government.

    Sorry long comment. Have a great Monday all. Another week ahead to keep the trolls at bay!

  64. Giving Goose

    I agree with Gullaneno4 re the formula of large visible marches. It’s plainly rattled the BritNatz, hence the attempts by BritNatz propagandists such as Neil Mackay to stir things within the Pro Scotland movement.
    It’s a sign that Yes is winning and the BritNatz are worried.

  65. Iain Hayes

    As an aside, if it appeared to Alyn Smith that messages were coming out of Vladivostok, then they almost certainly were not. It is extremely easy and extremely common for state operators to make internet traffic appear to come from somewhere that it did not.

  66. Kenny

    Great work, Stu.

    Setting the groundwork? Perhaps, in the inevitability of independence, certain prominent individuals/groups are more concerned about future Scottish governments, ministers and Press types being scrutinised, held to account and forcibly transparent way-beyond the current? There are generations of such individuals and groups having easy rides on cosy-pally gravy trains, throughout Scotland as well as the uk.

    I’ve often made the point that an independent Scotland would not permit the levels of corruption and old-boys trickery inherent in Westminster corridors, maybe that doesn’t suit some people?

    Keep doing what you’re doing; it’s nice to see those used to having their way being exposed every week – they must hate you like hell.

  67. Lenny Hartley

    Liz @12:33 well said, just as well my knee has packed up after Saturday’s march as it save me saying im not going to be delivering any leafletstoo let Smith back on his cozy gravy train.

    As for Wishart, I really hope he is taking the piss.

  68. beachthistle

    A man who lost a Scotland on Sunday/Scotsman sports reporter job due to being caught using/directing abusive language to a national organisation’s officials (SRU blazers for instance) he had a beef with – via an answerphone message he left when ‘tired and emotional’ – would be well suited to be the SMSM’s go-to-guy/expert on the ill-advised use of abusive and intemperate language…

  69. Balaaargh

    Three things:

    Firstly, didn’t Newsquest shuffle their titles so that this isn’t the old “Sunday Herald” but “The Herald on Sunday”? I don’t expect a Sunday edition of theirs to be any different from the rest of the week…

    Secondly, I think Pete Wishart as speaker is a brilliant tactic for a number of reasons! The SNP decided long before I was born that the only way to truly beat WM is to do it at their own game. If you have to play by someone else’s rules then isn’t it better to if you decide the referee? Plus, Perth is a very marginal seat and a definite target for the Tories. As speaker, the Tories would not be able to stand against him at a GE and IMHO it would be more palatable for the seat count to be SNP -1; IND +1 as opposed to SNP -1; CON +1.

    Finally, I’m not worried about any BS from Mundell and Davidson about refusing a section 30. The right to self-determination is enshrined in the UN charter and international law and I think a fair few members of the Commonwealth as well as in Europe will be there to support us in dissolving this union.

  70. CameronB Brodie

    Further to Artyhetty @1:10pm

    Exploring symbolic violence in the everyday: misrecognition, condescension, consent and complicity


    In this article, we draw on Pierre Bourdieu’s concepts of ‘misrecognition’, ‘condescension’ and ‘consent and complicity’ to demonstrate how domination and violence are reproduced in everyday interactions, social practices, institutional processes and dispositions. Importantly, this constitutes symbolic violence, which removes the victim’s agency and voice.

    Indeed, we argue that as symbolic violence is impervious, insidious and invisible it also simultaneously legitimises and sustains other forms of violence as well. Understanding symbolic violence together with traditional discourses of violence is important because it provides a richer insight into the ‘workings’ of violence, provides new ways of conceptualising violence across a number of social fields and new strategies for intervention.

    Symbolic violence is a valuable tool for understanding contentious debates on the disclosure of violence, women leaving or staying in abusive relationships or returning to their abusers. Whilst we focus only on violence against women, we recognise that the gendered nature of violence produces its own sets of vulnerabilities against men and marginalised groups, such as LGBT. The paper draws on empirical research conducted in Sweden in 2003 by the second-author. Sweden is an interesting case study because despite its progressive gender equality policies, there has been no marked decrease in the violence towards women by men.

    Keywords symbolic violence, consent, complicity, misrecognition, condescension, symbolic power, Bourdieu

  71. One_Scot

    As far as I am concerned Neil Mackay is nothing more than a Unionist Trojan Troll trying to bring Independence down from the inside.

  72. James MacIntyre

    I am a radical lefty that Wings over Scotland criticises. I disagree with your stance on trans rights, but still think you does a decent job of what it sets out to do.

    The thing you have to understand is Neil Mackay was editor of the Sunday Herald, at a time when the Herald group were pitching to independence supporters. It seems obvious that Mackay feels betrayed by SNP supporters on Twitter who questioned the editorial stances he took. The Sunday Herald massively increasing its readership among Scots when they took a pro-indy line under the previous editor.

    This can be seen with a lot of pundits that rose from the radical left during the indyref; Vonny Moyes, Angela Haggerty, Loki the rapper, and a lot of Commonspace activists. A lot of them have interesting things to say. It is good that some people see value in positioning themselves as a working-class pundit, and refreshing alternatives to the right-wing pundits which dominate UK and Scottish media.

    What makes me cringe is whenever these people turn on some anonymous “cybernat” community, whose only crime seems to be heckling a small, and clearly close-knit punditry and politician class who tweet their views every day regardless of how little they have thought about the particular issue of the day.

    The Herald journalists, Neil Mackay and others need to take a step back, and think long and hard about whether a few folk on twitter attacking the editorial comments of the Herald newspaper is really a hill worth dying on. I can’t see the Herald newspaper or Neil Mackay coming out of this with any kind positive impact to their reputations, and it seems a complete waste of a Sunday edition.

  73. Wee Alex

    The establishment will do anything it can to split the independence movement.

    Do not be taken in by this nonsense.

    Is Robertson wrong when he says personal attacks on Unionists affect the movement. He is 100% correct.

    I’m a believer in attacking the policies, not the messenger.

    Independence needs us all pushing in the same direction.

  74. CameronB Brodie

    James MacIntyre
    So do you support the colonisation of “womanhood” by men?

  75. Craig Murray

    That Angus Robertson was the driving force behind the SNP’s pro-NATO decision – carried at conference entirely by the payroll vote – and that Stewart MacDonald regularly outdoes the Tories in Cold War Russophobia, really should have given people clues some time ago.

  76. Craig Murray

    Wee Alex at 1.30pm “The Establishment will do anything it can to split the Independence Movement”.

    Indeed. That is precisely what MacDonald and Robertson are doing.

  77. Calum McKay

    Any division will be seized upon by opponents,

    Criticising Alyn Smith won’t win one vote, the opposite in fact.

    What differentiates the SNP from the unionist parties is – “unity with common purpose!”

    Speaking of trolls, idiot trolls are obvious and laughable, effective trolls subtly sow doubt and division, they move on or change name and their work is done.

    I don’t agree with everything the SNP do or say. When I look at labour and tories it never ceases to amaze me the indiscipline of those who criticise their own parties from within and then tell the world. If we go down that line we end up the exactly the same, rightly so. The unionist parties are envious beyond belief of the unity of the SNP, we don’t need to wonder why,

    Don’t wash your dirty laundry in public!

  78. Effijy

    Mackay is indeed a nasty House Boy.

    Doing his Lord Haw Haw bit for great deal more than 30 pieces of silver.

    As the Rev previously explained All of the Newspapers, Radio Stations and TV Channels were Unionist.
    At one stage 50% plus of Scots were ready to vote for independence but zeros media support of any kind?

    We have the usual structed propaganda methods of the BBC etc by allowing one line or one minute to express independent views
    but drown it out with a multitude of Unionists before and after. Start and finish with negative independence headlines that are not factual or given any right to reply.

    Its the people with money who can skew political moods. Not us.

    Cambridge Analytics with the money from their fellow graduates,
    its the Dark Money that comes in from the back door of Ulster that has a very convenient back door left open by Westminster as it is they who use it.

    MI5 operate in Kentigern House on Argyle St Glasgow, just opposite the Marriot Hotel.

    They also have chambers beneath the Glasgow City Chambers.

    With Scotland’s money behind them they can set up many offices under false names financed by fictitious parent companies.
    Nothing easier.

    There are no rules or morals on how they operate.
    We know for a fact they have executed people in Ireland,
    they will have affairs, and father children while under cover to get them closer to those they wish to infiltrate such as animal rights campaigners.
    No holds barred.

    Now it seems to me that the Unionist know exactly who I am as soon as they read this as they have full control of the internet. An autist Scot by the name of McKinnon, who had an exceptional understanding of the internet took on a task to test the US Security software protecting their military sites.

    He was successful in hacking them but with the help of the UK Services that were able to track him down. His own extensive methods to cover his trail were also hacked.

    They wanted to deport him and imprison him autistic or not.

    Now if there was such a thing as nasty cybernats then Westminster has all the resources to track them down and bring them to book but perhaps its better just to say there are so many of them, we can’t find them, nobody acts like this on the Unionist side, nasty SNP are not bringing them to justice.

    Absolute bollocks written right across the UK Media, TV Stations has little budget for anything other than repeats after the millions spent on co-ordinated propaganda.

    At Indy ref 1 the Purda was broken, Dark Money permitted to support Scotland in Union, Wee TRuthless was allowed to open
    postal votes, Carmichael the liar was allowed to slander our
    First Minister, waste £1 Million on an inquiry and found to be within his rights by the Westminster Parliamentary committee?

    The employed UK Journalists take payment to maintain a corrupt lying government who have taken millions into poverty, given us food banks, zero hours employment, attacks on the disabled, rape case babies and caused the death of thousands due to inadequate NHS finance.

    Neil you are burst.
    You have no credibility.
    Your paper died under the weight of it own lies and deceit.
    It breaths only because those with one hands in Scotland’s pocket and the other around its throat are willing to pay for its artificial lung machine.[

    McKay is to journalism what Tokyo Rose was to war time broadcasting.

  79. geeo

    Robert Louis says:@12.17…”blah blah blah …SNP BAD”…blah blah blah..”

    That has been your M.O. on here for quite some time.

    What was the last “SNP POSITIVE” thing you posted on Wings without an SNP BAD caveat ?

    Bet even you don’t know.

    Look at the moronic irony of the other “thats me finished wi that essenpee mob, too cosy at WM” squad.

    A regular occurrance on Wings lately, and fairly new.

    I spent an hour looking through random Wings posts this morning, going back a few years, and this new ‘tactic’ is exactly that, NEW.

    There are hardly any instances the further back to 2014 you go, and it went into overdrive a few months ago.

    It is a Unionist TACTIC, and people need to be more aware of that.

    I have never met not spoken to a single (ACTUAL) indy supporter who thinks abandoning the SNP is a good idea, as they KNOW that without SNP in power, indy will never happen.

    I also know plenty NON SNP supporters who recognise that important fact, people who absolutely bite down hard when voting SNP as they KNOW the bigger prize they seek, shall ONLY be delivered by the SNP giving us the means to become independent.

    Remember this, in 2014, WE let the SNP down by voting No, but they stuck with us, they never took a hissy fit and told us to enjoy the crap we had coming as a result of voting No.

    They fought on, and are on the brink of delivering another opportunity for us.

    To paraphrase Alyn Smith: The SNP never let you down, i beg of you, do not let us, and yourselves, down”.

    My advice is simple.

    Vote Yes.

    Be independent.

    Or be damned.

  80. IZZIE

    Craig Murray @ 137pm I dont know what you mean by ‘the payroll vote’. I was at that conference and it was on a knife edge I dont agree it was Robertson who swung the vote Kenny McKaskill’s speech was electrifying.

  81. Proud Cybernat


    Manny Singh (AUOB organiser) arrested by Police Scotland:

  82. chicmac

    Alyn Smith is correct in that in all likelihood there are black flag operatives posing as Yes supporters on line but by the same token, it is arguably even more likely that there are also pro Union moles operating within the SNP. I would be astounded if there were not.

    What is a truly remarkable observation is that I have never detected any clandestine Yes supporters acting as black flag/moles within the Unionist control machine. There are some token, overtly Yes supporters allowed here and there for PR reasons but none where I have ever suspected that they claim to be Unionist but are really Yes supporters who are acting to undermine the Unionist cabal.

    I doubt if the essentially hones and fair minded Yes supporters could stomach such an activity.

    That is the real story here.

  83. yesindyref2

    @Calum McKay: “Don’t wash your dirty laundry in public!

    Perhaps someone should tell that to Robertson, Smith and the other guy.

    None of whom, by the way, had one single tweet about the 100,000 peaceful and happy marchers.

    But don’t be angry with the three of them, they’re just the stooges, the dumb patsies. They’re to be pitied.

  84. CameronB Brodie

    Time for a bit cultural psychology of colonialism?


    But above all I wanted to get away from speculation – at that time [1960s], the works of Frantz Fanon, especially The Wretched of the Earth, were the latest fashion, and they struck me as being false and dangerous. – Pierre Bourdieu, Interview, “Fieldwork in Philosophy” (1990 [1986]: 7)

    What Fanon says corresponds to nothing. It is even dangerous to make the Algerians believe the things he says. This would bring them to a utopia. And I think these men [Sartre and Fanon] contributed to what Algeria became because they told stories to Algerians who often did not know their own country any more than the French who spoke about it, and, therefore, the Algerians retained a completely unrealistic utopian illusion of Algeria… [T]he texts of Fanon and Sartre are frightening for their irresponsibility. You would have to be a megalomaniac to think you could say just any such nonsense. – Pierre Bourdieu, An interview with James Le Sueur, Uncivil War (2001:282)

    Seven Theses on Colonialism: Bourdieu Equals Fanon
    Notwithstanding their convergent trajectories from periphery to center to periphery, given their divergent positions and dispositions one would expect Bourdieu the French normalien and Fanon the Martiniquan psychiatrist to have clashing understandings of the colonial condition. Such an expectation of divergence is only intensified, if one takes into account Bourdieu’s later denunciation of Fanon’s writings as “speculative,” “irresponsible,” and “dangerous.”

    It is all the more surprising, therefore, to discover striking parallels in their analysis of colonial domination, anti-colonial struggles and the supersession of colonialism. As evidence let me draw on two texts, both written in 1961, one year before Algeria’s independence – Bourdieu’s “Revolution Within the Revolution”3 and Fanon’s The Wretched of the Earth.

  85. Robert Louis

    Geeo at 0151pm,

    I think the tone of your comment makes my point for me. Well done.

  86. geeo

    Note you never posted when your last “SNP POSITIVE” post was posted ?

    Can you not remember ?

  87. Bob Mack

    No doubt someone will post it ,but you should read Mhairi Hunters latest tweet about some Indy supporters. Truly!!!

    However some on here just want us to take it on the chin and look the other way. Get lost.

  88. Robert Louis

    geeo at 207pm

    ….and again.

  89. Frank Waring

    It’s great that nobody ever has to tell you ‘never let go!’

  90. Ian McCubbin

    I used to be a fan of Neil Mckay and his writings not since last year.
    So glad Glasgow went like last years AUOB marches as a number of us activists and mini leaders were worried.
    So road open for the rest. First I can go to is Oban on 15th June then Perth and Edinburgh.
    We won’t be far away from independence by autumn.

  91. Effijy

    Tam Fae Somewhere says:
    6 May, 2019 at 12:34 pm
    This appeared in my LinkedIn feed today

    Norway’s $1.1 trillion wealth fund has enjoyed a record quarter. The world’s largest sovereign wealth investor earned a return of 9.1% on its investments in Q1, gaining $84 billion — or $16,000 per citizen.

    Tam, I took the Norwegian population of 5,295,000 and divided it in to the $1.1 Trillion above and converted it into the Great British Pounds, the Scotland is allowed access too, and it transpires that they have £159,000 in the Norwegian treasury for each and every man woman and child in the entire country.

    Thank God Westminster and all its propaganda channels have ensure Scotland, who has never been allowed to borrow in over 300 years as and 8.9% share of Westminster’s £2,000,000,000,000 of debt.

    With Scotland having drawn out more oil than Norway since we both had shared North Sea oil discoveries, isn’t scary to think how we would have manged with a fund of circa £200,000 each!

    At least the UK rich have doubled their money recently and the gap between the richest and the average worker has widened for each of the last 56 years and with 90% of Tory MPs being millionaires and so many Labour MP’s now Lords in Ermine robs we have nothing to concern us.

  92. CameronB Brodie

    I’m getting all out of sync. and should have posted this before the last link.


  93. Iain mhor

    Yeah, well, only Mr McDonald is an elected representative to the Scottish Parliament – one isn’t a politician at all and the other was just made redundant from his post (actually I don’t know what a Scottish MEP is. I think its 6 Scottish representatives, out of 73 UK ones, who get to say things, hoping the majority of the other UK MEP’s agree; thereby allowing the UK Member State to mould EU legislation for the benefit of Scotland.
    The same system with MP’s works so well at Westminster, I’m sure the Scottish MEP’s have a lot of clout… /S)

    I trust Mr McDonald has just worked out that ex-politicians don’t further the careers of incumbents. He’s the only one in the firing line at the ballot box and the only one with a constituency – Oh dear Mr McD, rookie error I’m afraid.

  94. Gary

    Isn’t it ‘The Paris Convention’ that covers how referenda are conducted?

    Regardless of the name, the convention states a number of ways in which any referendum should be conducted. ie who can vote, what is a majority etc. It’s there to prevent things happening like what happened in Ireland Indy vote (ie they voted out then had it partially overturned by a small group of politicians) like what happened to Scotland’s Devo vote in 79 (a ‘turnout’ requirement for the vote to be valid) NB that has been done elsewhere too.

    The convention expressly forbids a majority from being anything other than 50% plus one vote, it forbids turnout requirements and makes a ‘win’ unconditional. Despite this you still see proposals like this and also Alistair Carmichael’s attempt to sow the seeds of an action similar to what happened in Ireland happening in Orkney and Shetland (he wanted Orkney and Shetland to go back IN to the UK if Scotland had won Indy if THEY had voted majority ‘NO’) But then Carmichael ISN’T well known for his democratic values, is he?

    Just because someone SAYS they believe in the same things you do, doesn’t make it true. Sometimes people lie.

    Look at Boris in the whole Brexit debate. He took a LONG time to decide what side to come down on. Now he is the DARLING of the Brexit voters. They LOVE him and want him as PM, which is ALL he ever wanted…ALL he ever wanted. He just wants it all to be over before he takes office, that’s all. Some people are hungry for power, others for fame, some for influence.

    But back to something that many gloss over. “Divisiveness” It was spoken about in the Scottish Independence Referendum and again in the Euro Referendum. It is spoke about SO often that we accept it’s truth. But it ISN’T true. I have NEVER felt divided from family or friends (or even aquaintances) by my politics.

    Am I just weird, well maybe lol! But I think 99.9% are the same. The divisiions are entirely due to trolls…ENTIRELY. In real life we may debate but do so respectfully with our friends. We know some of them could NEVER change their minds, they are too fixed. For those people there is no point, we agree to disagree. The ‘divisions’ are hyped up by newspapers, and we have swallowed the bait!

    Never mind the Russians, think of PRISM and, as per your example, the 77th Brigade. THOSE are the people trying to make this so painful we want to give up. Stop believing the hype and look at your real life experience of your own family and friends.

    Planted newspaper stories from ‘trusted sources’ are EXACTLY what 77th and PRISM would, can and actually do on a daily basis. Look at Craig Murray’s blog for information on this ‘The Guardian’ is now a mouthpiece for MI6 and it looks like ‘The Herald’ is following suit.

    Just how scared are they of US that they devote this level of resource on US to shut us up, to quiet our voices and make us seem like the trolls which we are not. The REALITY of ACTUAL opposition to independence is that it is TINY. It is a tiny number of small minded orange bigots waving BIG flags and the newspaper shoots their photo from such an angle as to make it look like the march was somehow LINED with ‘unionists’ It wasn’t, the whole of Scotland managed to send a TINY number of bigots out. The MAJORITY are either IN FAVOUR of Indy or still a bit worried. On a BAD day we’re at 45%, but on a good day we’re nearer 60% now.

    There’s no going back, Indy WILL happen. The more scared they are the more dirty tricks to expect. There’s no referendum on the cards, there’s no official campaign and yet they are STILL trying this now? How scared are they??

  95. kapelmeister

    We can do without liberals of the evangelical sort telling cybernats what we can and can’t say online. If we see a Yes supporter crossing the line then we must call them out.

    Otherwise, get on with posting. Including making satirical comments about those unionist politicians who are out to take away our rights.

  96. Famous15

    What a day! Labour on everyones lips. Jeremy mus be doing something ,right?

  97. Paul Hampton

    Very disappointed by Mackay still asserting that Dugdale won the court case. He would do well to listen to Eamonn O’Neill’s summary for a neutral point of view.
    On another point, the name Jordon came up yesterday. Don’t know his real name on Twitter, buecause he uses a pseudonym. He’s pretty vitriolic and abusive, particularly with Joan McAlpine.
    Has Alyn Smith made any comment about him? I read that they’re acquaintances.

  98. CameronB Brodie

    What about some post-colonial anthropology re. “idioms of distress”?

    Between Structural Violence and Idioms of Distress:
    The Case of Social Suffering in the French Caribbean


    Structural violence has become a central concept in critical medical anthropology. It emphasises the importance of structural health determinants such as poverty, political violence and other collateral aspects of globalization. Diseases and epidemics are viewed as being pathologies of power. The goal of anthropology is no longer to analyse the influence of culture on illness and disease, but rather to engage in pragmatic efforts to remedy social inequalities that express themselves through illhealth.

    Such opposition between culture and politics may not be consistent with the need for a comprehensive anthropology that emphasizes the subtle and complex articulations between the multiple dimensions of health. Based on an analysis of depression and social suffering in postcolonial Martinique (French Caribbean), a plea is made for a new understanding of the relationship between local idioms of distress on the one hand and intermediate social, political and economical factors on the other. There is also a discussion of some of the pitfalls related to an exclusive focus on the political economy of health.

    KEYWORDS: structural violence, pathologies of power, Martinique, social suffering, depression, post-colonialism, idioms of distress, Caribbean.

    Pathologies of Power, Structural Violence and Mental Health
    The concept of structural violence, referring to violence that is ‘exerted systematically, […] is intended to inform the study of the social machinery of oppression’ (Farmer 2004: 307). It suggests that violence is structural in two ways….

  99. Colin Alexander

    Remember, we the sovereign people are the king makers. Alyn Smith and the SNP are not our masters, they are our servants.

    Time to take Alyn Smith down a peg or two, if you ask me. But keep the pro-indy vote high.

    For those cheesed off with the SNP, especially Alyn Smith, I would like to invite you to vote for the Scottish Green Party in the Euro elections, if they go ahead.

  100. Scottish Steve

    I wouldn’t put anything past the UK government. No doubt they have security service agents acting as infiltrators. Their primary job is the preservation and protection of the British state. Never underestimate the power of vested interests.

  101. Scozzie

    To me this is all about who gets to exercise power, control and influence of the independence movement. The digs at social media bloggers IMO is an attempt to undermine their influence at a grassroots level. The SNP don’t own the independence movement it’s a peoples movement. Granted, they are the political arm that can make it happen, but it only happens if they can carry the trust of independence supporters.

    On the one hand the SNP appealed to people to drive forward the movement towards independence, yet on the other hand they will not embrace the visible ‘call to action’ that YES supporters are providing to the independence movement.
    The SNP are coming across as rule-makers rather than enablers of independence.

    AUOB is of every stripe and none – the SNP should not be afraid of this. It should actually use it to their advantage, by highlighting it is truly the people who are pushing for change (not just their supporters).

    IMO the grassroots and independence bloggers are what’s increasing support for independence. The SNP should be attacking the Establishment on all fronts with this groundswell of support for independence. Yet they seem paralysed and so willing to play by the Establishment’s rules.

    The time is coming to take a shit or get off the pot (so to speak).

  102. Josef Ó Luain

    The tragedy for oldsters like myself is: we fear how long it’s going to take for the SNP to become the completely irrelevant political entity it is likely to become under its current leadership. The upper echelons of the modern-day SNP have absolutely nothing in common with the vast majority of ordinary people, like myself, who comprise the Yes movement.

    Troll scum, paid and voluntary, should take no solace from these words; the Independence Movement does not revolve around nor rely on the SNP for its existence and vitality.

  103. Welsh Sion

    Last week’s news:

    – Referrals to foodbanks have passed the 100,000 mark in Wales for the first time.

    This week’s news:

    – The Duchess of Sussex has given birth to a boy.

    Spot the scroungers.

  104. Petra

    Neil Mackay comes across as a sad and angry man. Maybe something to do with the Sunday Herald folding on his watch? Folding when Independence supporters basically dumped it. Has he dumped us now?

    He says on Twitter:- ”A day of endless abuse for reporting a story accurately, and with full on the record quotes from SNP leaders, about concerns regarding behaviour by an online fringe of Yes supporters. And it included full details of vile unionist trolling as balance too.”

    This from a man who published Alyn Smith’s comments on infiltrators and bots. I just wonder how he can tell who exactly has been abusing him? Does he know them all personally?

    Meanwhile this site, with around 300,000 visitors, is contributing to even more division in the Yes ranks than the Herald, imo, and no doubt attracting many more Unionist tr*lls on here. Falling into the trap? The Herald is finished. How many weekly sales do they have now? Less than 30,000, I would reckon, with a percentage of their readership already supporting Independence. Don’t give them airtime. Deprive them of oxygen.

    And all of this to point out that Neil Mackay no longer seems to be our friend, but more than anything that some key SNP politicians are trying to stamp out pro-Independence supporters abusing online AND that the Unionists are doing it too plus a warning to us all of the ”conglomeration of infiltrators”, that are trying to undermine our cause. What’s not to get?


    @ Robert Louis says at 12:17 pm …”Perhaps the time of Angus Robertson, Alyn Smith and others, would be better spent trying to work with ALL indy supporters constructively, trying to find out WHY they are not happy, rather than just decrying them because they dared question the SNP strategy. Their really might be an awful lot they could learn.”..

    I’m trying to figure out what you mean by this RL? As I see it they are decrying individuals who are undermining the Independence movement, that is genuine Independence supporters and ”false flag friends.” Not because Independence supporters have dared to question the SNP strategy at all. Where does that come from? Maybe I’ve missed something here? Something in the Herald article? If so, I’d genuinely appreciate if you could point it out to me.

    It also comes across to me that Angus Robertson IS actually trying to ”work with ALL Indy supporters constructively” by setting up Progress Scotland.

    ”Progress Scotland commissions public opinion polling, focus groups and other research to better understand how people’s views are changing in Scotland.”


    @ Lenny Hartley says at 1:14 pm …”As for Wishart, I really hope he is taking the piss.”

    Robert Peffers covered this point yesterday Lenny. In brief, Pete Wishart is ruled out as being the Speaker due to EVEL. He knows it and we (should) know it.


    I’ve been searching for the Brewer / Rennie interview on Youtube to no avail. Interesting that it isn’t available on BBC 1 either.

  105. jfngw

    Grief, somebody has given Mhairi Hunter access to twitter again. A number of us are ‘trash’ and need to be ‘neutralised’. That SNP hole is getting deeper. Along with the Bravo comment from Andrew Wilson (reminded me a little of an old DM headline) regarding the SH article I fear there are now many in the SNP devoid of any sense or have caught the Labour disease of looking down their noses at their supporters.

  106. Giving Goose

    Re Manny Singh arrest.
    It’ll be interesting to see what this is about.

  107. Awizgonny

    You’d think, given Mackay’s and The Byres Road Collective’s obsession with Wings as the usual suspect re abuse, that they’d have responded to being effectively called out as shills.

    But naw.


    (Pun intended.)

  108. Jack collatin

    Brilliant, Stu.

    I commented rather overlongly (?) on MacKay The Plastic Nat over on WGD last night.

    That Was The Week That Was, produced by Ned Sherrin and fronted by David Frost ran for two seasons 1962/1963, until the Brit Establishment and their State Propagandist pulled the plug.
    Script-writers included John Albery, John Antrobus, John Betjeman, John Bird, Graham Chapman, John Cleese, Peter Cook, Roald Dahl, Robin Grove-White, Richard Ingrams, Lyndon Irving, Gerald Kaufman, Frank Muir, David Nobbs, Denis Norden, Bill Oddie, Dennis Potter, Eric Sykes, Kenneth Tynan, and Keith Waterhouse.

    Vile nasty satirists the lot of them.

    Floggin’ was too god for these young ingrates at the time.

    ‘The Profumo affair was at its height, and satirical targets, such as Prime Minister Harold Macmillan and Home Secretary Henry Brooke were lampooned in sketches, debates and monologues. Some other targets included the monarchy, the British Empire, nuclear deterrence, advertising, public relations and propaganda, capital punishment,sexual and social hypocrisy, the class system, and the BBC itself.[citation needed] Well-remembered sketches include a controversial “consumers’ guide to religion”, which discussed relative merits of faiths in the manner of a Which? magazine report, which received controversy from religious figures at the time.’

    How very dare they?

    Neil Macnab, billed as ‘writer at large’ over at the Herald Britland lands an ‘exclusive’.

    “LEADING figures in the SNP have stepped forward to denounce online abuse by so-called “cybernats” – a hardcore fringe of Yes supporters on social media accused of trolling, bullying, harassment and intimidation. “

    The condemnation comes from Angus Robertson, former depute leader of the SNP; Stewart McDonald MP, the party’s defence spokesman at Westminster; and Alyn Smith MEP, the SNP’s leading voice in the European Parliament.”

    Somebody called Sam Shedden over at the Hootsman cuts and pastes Macnab’s ‘exclusive’ by, wait for it, e-mail, but he is definitely not a Brit Nat ‘keyboard warrior’, because he is for the Yookay.

    Like modern day Luddites, the Old Guard at at the Dead Tree Scrolls and State controlled Broadcast media are lashing out at technological and social Change.

    Nobody under 30 actually buys a newspaper these days, and the 71 year old author of this piece is one of a growing band of Oldies who get their news and views online, and not from electronic versions of the Dead Tree Scrolls.

    Circulation is plummeting and the last helicopter will be leaving from the roof top of the Ministry Of Truth any day now.

    There is apparently a small team of lamplighters still operating in London, where gas lights have been installed by English Heritage.
    Aw, the nice.

    I imagine that the journos ‘hot desking’ in the Newsrooms of our declining Blahs must feel like lamplighters must have felt when electric light took off.

    Their gas is at a peep.

    You can almost taste their anger and frustration at the thought of the nasty vile New Kids On The Block, the keyboard warriors in their mother’s basement dressed in their underpants (att: Ruth Supermom Davidson )huddled over a lap top spewing cultish Scottish Independence bile into the Ether while ‘real’ hacks had to get a degree and do the time before they got to cut and paste the Blue Red and Beige Tory press releases ..

    They would have banned Hogarth, Swift, Sherrin and Frost, burnt copies of 1984 and Brave New World, and Ray Bradbury’s ‘Fahrenheit 451’ ironically, and sent the lot of them to Room 101 to have the grievance culture and thoughts of independence programmed out of their clearly disturbed minds.

    Silence the Nats, resist Positive Change, sell out your countrymen and women:

    at the Dead Tree Scrolls and State controlled Broadcast media are lashing out at technological and social Change.

    Nobody under 30 actually buys a newspaper these days, and the 71 year old author of this piece is one of a growing band of Oldies who get their news and views online, and not from electronic versions of the Dead Tree Scrolls.

    Circulation is plummeting and the last helicopter will be leaving from the roof top of the Ministry Of Truth any day now.

    There is apparently a small team of lamplighters still operating in London, where gas lights have been installed by English Heritage.
    Aw, the nice.

    I imagine that the journos ‘hot desking’ in the Newsrooms of our declining Blahs must feel like lamplighters must have felt when electric light took off.

    Their gas is at a peep.

    You can almost taste their anger and frustration at the thought of the nasty vile New Kids On The Block, the keyboard warriors in their mother’s basement dressed in their underpants (att: Ruth Supermom Davidson )huddled over a lap top spewing cultish Scottish Independence bile into the Ether while ‘real’ hacks had to get a degree and do the time before they got to cut and paste the Blue Red and Beige Tory press releases ..

    They would have banned Hogarth, Swift, Sherrin and Frost, burnt copies of 1984 and Brave New World, and Ray Bradbury’s ‘Fahrenheit 451’ ironically, and sent the lot of them to Room 101 to have the grievance culture and thoughts of independence programmed out of their clearly disturbed minds.

    Silence the Nats, resist Positive Change, sell out your countrymen and women:

    The ‘double standards’ of Scotland’s Fourth Estate, Fifth Column, to which you refer in your excellent piece today, Paul.
    MacKay is looking after his job, and is without a doubt a Fifth Columnist. Bella Caledonia are at it too. Slag the Nats and Nicola.

    I write this under my own name. I’m in the book. Give me a bell anytime, Alyn.

  109. Petra

    Ooops double BBC link on last post!


    @ Colin Alexander says at 2:41 pm …. ”Remember, we the sovereign people are the king makers. Alyn Smith and the SNP are not our masters, they are our servants. Time to take Alyn Smith down a peg or two, if you ask me. But keep the pro-indy vote high. For those cheesed off with the SNP, especially Alyn Smith, I would like to invite you to vote for the Scottish Green Party in the Euro elections, if they go ahead.”

    And there it is for us all to see. Alyn Smith MEP being denounced on this site, by so many, with 17 days to go to the EU Elections.

    All of his hard work on our behalf completely forgotten?

  110. RobertTheTruth

    A salutary warning that it is not those who tell you to be cautious and think for yourself you should worry about.

    It is those who tell you what to think and how to voice it you should be wary of.

    Repeated overly simple and mantra like messages are designed to lull you into acceptance.

    ‘The SNP will never let you down’??? 2014 was a turning point for many Indy supporters. Most had never considered voting SNP ever but remorse and a genuine regret at what might have been, meant an influx of shiny new members unused to the grinding machinery of party politics. There was hope and enthusiasm and a desire to work for a common purpose.

    But that has goodwill been abused and there is nothing wrong with still voting SNP or even being a member but to not acknowledge the current problems they have with policy and on line tone is staggering.

    Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine are being threatened IRL for opinions they have voiced. The reported partner of one of the 3 SNP pearl clutchers has contributed in no small way to that on line fervour.

    The mood music coming from the SNP on line is to court the young woke crowd who they feel will stay with them over the next few years and to hell with long standing members and supporters who find some of their views disturbing. The SNP have looked at the demographics and they have calculated where their core vote lies. In the meantime don’t upset possible No to Yes voters and keep the press happy.

    They are relying on long term voters who will overlook this focus on the young to stay with them. They have looked at the figures. This is a strategy not a blip.

  111. Petra

    ‘All Under One Banner chief arrested and charged over Glasgow march.’

    It looks as though AUOB have lied to us again and IF so will be dragging the Independence movement down with them.

  112. Awizgonny

    BTW – apart from that sanctimonious tweet the day after coorying up to Mackay, I couldn’t help but note the complete absence on their Twitter account of any reference whatsoever by The Byres Road Collective to the march – in their own city, mark you. Not one image. Not one comment.

    Same goes for Latte McGarvey. He knows which side his brioche is buttered.

  113. jfngw

    Another gem from Ms Hunter

    ‘mainstream unionists are far better at disowning their ultras than we are’

    My experience is quite often they are already mainstream politician’s, if not they will then be employed by mainstream politicians. If both of these routes fail they will become BBC ‘personalities’.

  114. yesindyref2

    To all, those for Alyn Smith, those against him, and those who’d rather not be on the same planet as him.

    He’s number 1 on the SNP MEP list, which means even if the SNP vote goes down to 13%, he WILL get elected as MEP.

    Those NOT voting for the SNP because they’d rather Smith went away, won’t put him out, but might stop the 4th, 3rd, even 2nd candidate from being elected. Expectations currently are 3 or 4 MEPs. The list in order is:

    SNP MEP candidates

    1. Alyn Smith
    2. Christian Allard
    3. Aileen McLeod
    4. Margaret Ferrier
    5. Heather Anderson
    6. Alex Kerr

    In 4th there is Margaret Ferrier who apparently gave a speech on the stage at Glasgow Green (I arrived at the tail). Do you really want to repay her dedication to us marchers with reducing her chance of getting elected as an MEP?

  115. geeo

    And yet, another plethora of agitators and fake indy supporters spews forth on here.

    As i said already.

    “Remember this, in 2014, WE let the SNP down by voting No, but they stuck with us, they never took a hissy fit and told us to enjoy the crap we had coming as a result of voting No.

    They fought on, and are on the brink of delivering another opportunity for us”.

    Which part of that do you supposed indy supporters not fucking understand ?

    Yet here you are, agitating to DROP SNP support and by definition, like it or fucking not, diminishing independence chances.

    At least be fucking honest about your REAL message, which clearly is NOT Scottish Independence.

    Look at Coco the clown, who is an indy diehard as long as we never look like getting near it, then he tells people to vote against the only party able to deliver an independence platform and who are on the very brink of doing so..AGAIN. Coco is a unionist ALL DAY LONG and everyone knows it, so why do some find it difficult to recognise others like him, starting with Robert Louis ?

    Challenged to remind us when he last posted an “SNP POSITIVE” message, and has notably REFUSED to do so.

    My advice is simple.

    Vote Yes.

    Be independent.

    Or be damned.

    Coco and Robert louis actively want you to be damned, do not let them influence you, lose focus now, and damned indeed we shall be.

  116. Arthur Thomson

    Talk about making a mountain out of a fucking molehill.

    All publicity is good publicity. So the Brits want to fill their comics with talk of divisions in the Independence movement. What’s new? They are their own worst enemies and that is fine by me. The British curtain twitchers will be all faint and that is also fine by me.

    Who are these ‘leaders’ of the Independence movement? We are all leaders – except those who are actually Brits pretending to be Scots and they are be beneath contempt. Do such people mislead adults who have minds of their own? Of course not. People who genuinely support Scottish independence and those who will become supporters will have made that decision precisely because they think for themselves.

    The British want us to be one herded flock, to be led by the nose. They want us to learn to conform. Then they will take over the leadership and destroy us. My message to them is a simple one, – kiss my arse. I am and will continue to be a supporter of the SNP. But I will NEVER subordinate the cause of Scotland’s independence to support for a political party – however good I think it is. The independence movement MUST be diverse. That diversity, with just ONE indivisablecommon aim is what will bring us success.

    Onwards and upwards people. My message to all those who participated in the the celebration in Glasgow on Saturday is – thank you, it makes me proud to be associated with you.

  117. Giving Goose

    There are lots of positives in discussing the contributions (or not) of SNP politicians connected to the piece by “British till I die”-Neil Mackay.
    This discussion actually demonstrates the strength of the Independence movement. By engaging then we cannot be accussed of being brainwashed followers. We are a living breathing movement!

  118. geeo

    @yesindyref2 @3.27pm

    You asked: “In 4th there is Margaret Ferrier who apparently gave a speech on the stage at Glasgow Green (I arrived at the tail). Do you really want to repay her dedication to us marchers with reducing her chance of getting elected as an MEP”?

    Simple answer is: Yes, they DO want to try stop that happening.

    Lets piss them off.

  119. Tatu3

    The way I see it is an attempt, with the EU elections any day now and Alyn Smith one of our best MEPs, by the establishment/media to try and put Scots off voting for him and reducing our number of EU/independence supporting MEPs. He has been good at speaking up for Scotland within the EU, so needs to be got rid of!
    Especially as its rumoured that the number of independence supporting Scots MEPs might get to 4.
    Put all these “stories” away for now and vote SNP in every available vote. After independence these can then be sorted.

  120. Tony O"neill

    Neil MC.Kay, claims to be a big independence advocate, ur ye aye!. By your deeds you shall be known, and never truer word spoke. Our eyes are open, we can see yous.

  121. jfngw

    Strangely I’m not in the least bit annoyed with Neil Mackay, he writes for a unionist slanting paper, he was doing his job. He fired the gun but it is those who provided the ammunition that I’m peeved at.

    Yes it’s a simple answer to denounce those on here that feel aggrieved with some SNP output is that we are just unionists in disguise, unfortunately it is not true if you look at numerous yes types on twitter. They have pissed off many of them.

    Margaret Ferrier is the convenor of my local Cambuslang branch and a tireless worker. I don’t know her that well personally (there was nothing useful I could offer except pamphlet posting and I’m not fit enough so don’t go to many meetings) but it would be a shame considering the work she puts in for the SNP. That is why I dislike these list systems, the parties decide effectively who is being elected.

  122. ronnie anderson

    Ok Wingers/Yessers/Lurkers Abuddy ( as they wid say in Dundonian )

    Wings Over Scotland Stall Sat 4th May 2019

    Float £ 210
    Back up Float £ 190
    = £ 400

    Total monies at the end of the day

    Back up Float – £ 190 ( R Anderson’s monies )
    Total = £ 838 .45


    Social Bite £ 300 ( awaiting account num )
    Indylive .com £ 100
    iScot £ 100
    WGDug £ 100
    SRSM £ 25
    Sar A Pipe Band £ 20

    = £ 675

    Cash in Hand = £ 163

    Wreath for Cearc to be purchased I will be traveling up to Inverness by train on Wed 8th 8.34 if anybody else is intending to attend

    Inverness Crematorium
    Kilvean Rd
    IV3 8JN .

    Many Thanks to ALL the Volunteers who have given their time throughout the years to the Wings Stall & to the Many People who have visited & purchased ( donated ) . We have over the years Donated thousands £££ to Foodbanks & to further the cause of Independence .

    Sat may be our last Hurrah , its been a Blast . Lastly Many Many Thanks to the Rev for allowing us to use the WoS name ( as a autonomous grouping we wouldn’t have been as successful ) without the support of the Wingers/Yessers .

  123. Craig P

    Well with Magnus Gardham out the door, *somebody* in the Scottish press has got to earn their bonus.

  124. Eric McLean

    We would all do well to remember that ‘CyberNat’ was a name coined to be offensive to pro-independence people who posted on line. It was never especially about Trolls or specifically offensive posters. This came later because it was convenient.

    It is also worth remembering that the so called ‘CyberNat’ phenomenon was born from the frustration of having all of the MSM presenting biased views, propaganda and refusing to challenge Unionist rhetoric or political smear stories.. or indeed challenge some of the blatant Project Fear claims.

    When people are treated, ridiculed and marginalised, the way that Scottish Independence supporters are, it’s hardly surprising that they defend themselves ‘robustly’

    It’s also hardly surprising when there are anonymous ‘sponsored posters’ using government and political party mechanisms / data bases to actively discredit Independence ideas, that Indy supporters will get frustrated and more argumentative than usual, perhaps.

    I am not countenancing online abuse. But when Americans faced the Redcoats, they used guerrilla tactics to beat them. This is what our online argument is all about. We don’t own 11 MSM Newspapers across the UK, so we have our own guerrilla fighters and tactics.

    I recall Stu getting angry on at least one occasion when a Winger was arguing the Referendum results were tampered with. And I must admit, at the time, I couldn’t see how the state could risk going as far as tampering with voting.

    But I also remember, McCrone, The Vow, Maritime College, FCO influences to foreign countries, and a host of other Government Interventions designed to beat Independence.

    I recall Assange told a Lawyers group in Glasgow that Westminster see Scottish Independence as a threat to the State, and therefore are legitimised to use Security Services in any manner whatsoever.

    My job for many years has been about Strategy and Culture Change for medium to large organisations. My instincts are good when it comes to recognising trends or patterns. And as such, it is obvious that the propaganda machinery and whatever anti-independence committee and working party was set-up at Westminster’s behest, has never stopped.

    This will have included such things as ‘Branding’ all new driving licences with the Union Flag and making sure that Unionist sympathisers and activists in Scotland find their way into jobs or government roles with perceived influence.

    It will also have planted false flags all over the cyber sphere, and there will be coordinated attempts to bury good independence news, such as Indy Marches or Oil finds, and to spin as many SNPBAD or CyberNat-Bad stories as possible.

    I am generally a cynic, and I don’t believe the world is flat or aliens have infested the Tory party. So I don’t generally wear a tin foil hat. But frankly, anyone who doesn’t believe that there exists some type of secret Anti-Independence department in WhiteHall is indeed delusional. It may be well hidden, disguised and top secret, but it will come to light one day.

    So in all honesty, I don’t care what I am called on line. Happy to be thought of as a CyberNat if it makes the Unionists happy to label me. And happy to be a flag waving enthusiast for Scottish Independence. Neither confirms me, as thick, uneducated, or bigoted.

    Scotland is considered the ‘Junior Partner’ in a Union that should be 1-1. This is clear. The very fact that Scotland voted to remain in the EU by a significant percent should have had the other partner discussing a solution, NOT insisting that the result didn’t apply to Scotland alone.

    My family all live in England now. Most of them married English partners. And of course, I have no hatred for any nationality, much less English. But I am angry about and determined to fight the various organisations and institutions that fight dirty through the media. It is clear that our enemies (yes, that’s how I see them) use a variety of tactics to try to control the online debate. So yes, I am going to post whatever and whenever I need to influence or disrupt this control. So pardon me if I offend anyone’s Unionist sensibilities.

    I will be honest, the Brexit shambles delights me. Westminster deserves this mess. It will damage the Union, politically, economically, culturally and internationally. This is almost an adequate substitute for a revolution. Perhaps the Great British Empire, the establishment, the archaic, anachronistic and hegemonic Westminster and London will finally realise that the ‘good old days’ have gone.

    The people who labelled us ‘separatists’ are the same people who voted for Brexit. The people who called us Nationalists, in the disparaging sense, are the same people who wave the Union Flag for the Queen, Thatcher and other British Empire events. The people who call us subsidy junkies and English haters, are the same people who insist on British Fish & Chips on holiday in Spain.

  125. galamcennalath

    Effijy says:

    With Scotland having drawn out more oil than Norway since we both had shared North Sea oil discoveries, isn’t scary to think how we would have manged with a fund of circa £200,000 each!

    There are those who say independence negotiations should consider division of debt! Why? We should present them with a bill for the Scots’ money they took and we saw no benefit from, a list of the moveable and oversees assets we have paid for, and a notice to quit all military bases including HMS Clyde!

  126. Tony O"neill

    The yes movement at this moment, are like the Scottish shiltroms from the battles of a bygone age. Right now we are being shot at with hundreds of arrows, so hold our line brothers and sisters, let them shoot all their poison arrows. Our time to be on them is coming soon.

  127. yesindyref2

    Looking around on twitter threads, including chonologically challenged dickwad’s who posts such an article the day after an event to celebrate, and still doesn’t understand he fucked up, there are people saying Alyn Smith won’t get their vote.

    That doesn’t work people, HE will still get elected as the SNP vote will be enough to get him in.

    BUT it will prevent Margaret Ferrier getting elected as an MEP, may prevent Aileen McLeod and could even stop Christian Allard.

    All the while Alyn Smith doesn’t have to care, he can say what he wants and get away with it. He’s 1st on the list, home and dry already.

    For those of you on twitter, please put that message about.

  128. david

    Number who buy Herald On Sunday – 13,648.

    Number who marched for Indy – 90,000.

    Result: We win!

    P.S. Click on ‘Papers’ at top right of Wings webpage to get circulation figures for the papers.

  129. Robert Peffers

    @Scotspine says:
    6 May, 2019 at 12:08 pm

    ” …MI5 are known to have a field office in Glasgow.

  130. Capella

    @ Eric McLean – well said. The Stasi are getting very edgy now.

    Things must nearing a tipping point. The EU elections are an obvious target. Last time the effort went into getting David Coburn elected. This time it seems to be “Anyone But SNP and here’s why”. People on twitter saying they won’t’ vote for SNP need to wise up and realise they are being played.

  131. Mary McCabe

    As long as political enthusiasts focus on individuals rather than on issues, and as long as social media remain uncontrolled by those in power (LONG may THAT continue) the insults will fly from both sides. The main problem is that only the insults from (alleged) YES supporters get reported and condemned (by both sides).

    A low-key and little reported survey during the indyref campaign found that the trolling from the No side was not only more prevalent but far worse, often consisting of serious death threats of the “I know where you live” kind. However this is rarely reported and never blamed on the Unionist parties or their leaders.

    We never expected anything else from the MSM who try to suppress any news which supports the YES side.

    As for the SNP politicians – some of them are clearly unhappy at the success of the AUOB rallies. They patronise those attending, making out it’s just a way for the wild and woolly to let off steam, to enjoy a party. They complain the activists should be out chapping doors instead.

    The SNP-controlled GCC tried to sow confusion by getting AUOB to change the start time at the last minute. They refused and now one of their organisers has been arrested for disobedience.

    Maybe it’s because the professional/paid politicians don’t have control over the rallies themselves. Maybe it’s because they’re prioritising their own careers over the issue of independence which would rock their boat (many current SNP politicians joined the party after 2007, when the SNP was the obvious choice for a political career – 20 years ago they’d have joined Labour).

    The rallies are not about having a party – they’re the only way to give the lie to the constant media refrain that NOBODY wants indy, that NOBODY wants another referendum, that voting and democracy themselves are b-o-r-i-n-g.

    When the public actually see up to 100,000 folk out marching for a political cause and then little or nothing gets mentioned on the news they may stop and wonder…?

    These marchers have made their their way sometimes from far-flung places to far-flung towns and then amble (rather than march), sometimes chanting, sometimes singing, down towards a park where there is music, food, and fun for all the family.

    They are a credit to the indy movement – colourful, inclusive (wheelchairs at the front set the pace) cheerful and friendly.

    By 7pm on Saturday Glasgow Green was pristine clean – far tidier than it usually is.

  132. A C Bruce

    Just reading that Mhairi Hunter, Glasgow councillors, has been reported to the SNP (Nicola Sturgeon) for abusing sections of support. The reporter has asked for SNP’s disciplinary procedure to be set in motion.

    Her comments shouldn’t be glossed over.

  133. Robert Louis

    re MI5, seen it sugested in the laguhingly titled ‘Scotsman’ ‘news’ paper, of all places, that the HQ in Glasgow/Scotland is located in the criminal records office on pathetic quay, next door to the BBC.

    Still have no idea if it is true. Good planning by MI5 if it is, just a minute walking distance between their office and their extensive communication facility (BBC), conveniently located next door…

  134. robertknight

    It should come as no surprise that the mainstream print media, particularly those in their death throes, will take all possible steps, including dirty tricks, to turn people off and away from those sources of news and information which expose their propaganda for what it is.

    Attempts to discredit sites like this, and those who contribute to their comments sections, will only ramp up as calls for another Indy Ref increase.

    I’ve just put on my tin hat and am prepared for incoming, but perhaps a means of selecting specific articles for BTL comments, limiting numbers or/opportunity for comments, ‘house rules’, or something similar may be necessary.

    It won’t detract from the article contents, and useful links from the likes of Nana etc. would still be available I’m sure, but there is a concerted effort by the ‘establishment’ to paint Yes and sites like these as refuges for bampots, and doing nothing in the face of such tactics isn’t an option surely.

  135. jfngw

    No point getting upset about the AUOB arrest, in fact they put everyone who attended at risk by saying the 1:30 start was OK. If the council ignore this then they would need to ignore every march, including the ones we find distasteful, that decided not to abide by the allocated time.

    They do need to clean up their act on being honest with the marchers, people need to be aware they are contravening the legality of the march timing when taking part.

  136. Colin Alexander


    If the SNP were seeking an indy mandate at the Euros, I would still vote SNP just for the sake of indy. But, the Euros are not about declaring indy. I’m no going to vote for Labour or the Tories or LibDems as they are unionists. (Also, David Martin, Labour MEP, never answered my recent letter).

    In my eyes, the SNP capitulation on Scotland’s vote to Remain, is a bigger disgrace than the UK Govt ignoring Scotland’s vote to Remain. I expect such contempt for Scotland’s sovereignty from the UK Govt but, the SNP went from Scotland’s Remain vote must be respected to People’s Vote, which is basically a re-run of England decides: Scotland meekly complies.

    Of course, I take no pleasure from it, if some of the good politicians in the SNP lose out because of Alyn Smith and his ilk and the SNP’s capitulation on the EU but, as you point out, I can’t pick and choose which politician I am voting for, only a party.

    So, I’ll vote for Scotland’s second pro-indy party, the Scottish Green Party.

  137. Cubby

    Vote SNP

    Vote Yes

    Vote for a normal independent country.

    It really is that simple.

    The alternative is a shit future in the UK for Scotland. We know what that looks like. We’ve had that for over 300 years. Future generations will thank us or, if we fail, add us to the list of all those who allowed us to be trapped in this corrupt anti Scottish UK prison for 312 years. A 312 year prison sentence is long enough.

    Ignore all the background noise and the concern trolls/disrupters/ phoney independence supporters/Britnat media/ politicians.

  138. Robert Louis

    yesindyref2 at 419pm,

    Good post. I agree. despite my views, I will hold my nose and vote SNP for EU elections. Firstly, to try to get the pro Scotland vote as high as possible, secondly to demonstrate to the EU and the liars at Westminster, that Scotland does not want brexit (again). Thirdly, because if we collectively do not vote SNP, then the morning of the results we will have wall to wall coverage of Davidson spouting about how she is going to be first minister, and ‘analysis from the BBC about how the SNP ‘are finished’ etc.. etc..

    A really strong showing for the SNP will send a very strong message to the heart of Europe. And they are watching.

    No matter what goes on with some of the current issues around the SNP, we should still get out and vote SNP. If we do not then we only do damage to ourselves and the cause of independence. That would be utter folly.

    This does not mean I am completely happy with the SNP – please take note, Alyn Smith. Shoogly peg and all that.

    Despite everything we need a really strong showing for the SNP at the EU elections. The other issues can be tackled in different ways.

    I cannot spread the message on twitter, as I am not on twitter or facebook.

  139. Cubby

    Robert Knight@4.38pm

    Thank you for your concern.

    I think someone must have put one of those Herald be nice to trolls pills in my cup of tea. The effects won’t last long.

  140. annien

    This is the man if i’m not mistaken who threatened to beat the s..t out of the person who graffiti sprayed a thing at the bottom of his garden actually posted a picture and requested assistance of anyone who might know who’s tag so he could catch them and he’s condemning online abuse.

  141. Robert Louis

    Meanwhile, on a rather ‘difficult’ day, here’s something to help remember why despite problems we need to vote SNP.

    Vote SNP or Davidson is what you’ll get…

  142. JMD

    Hey, calling all britnazi spooks reading this –

    Do I think that some SNP politicians are out of touch with their support and/or have been “compromised”? Yes

    Who will I be making a point of voting for on 23rd May?


    Suck it up and weep lads, your precious union is finished.

  143. Paul Wilson

    When are people going to get it through their Heads that the Herald is no friend of the SNP or wider Yes movement it never was never is and never will be. Thankfully hardly anyone reads it or the Scotsman for that matter and they are quoted far to often by doing so all that is happening is they are getting exposure that these titles and owners of these rags don’t deserve, best to let them wither away in their own bile and putrid mess. The sooner Scotland gets a media that is deserves the better!

  144. Sunshine

    Ronnie Anderson 4:04pm
    Thank you for that information Ronnie. Not that I was looking for it, but it’s nice to see people being so open about takings and where they are going etc.
    My wife and I had a wonderful day on Saturday and were lucky enough to be behind the Samba type band, who were absolutely fantastic. What a physical effort these people put in and the crowd loved it.
    I came up to the stall hoping to introduce myself, so that I could put faces to names, but you were all so busy sorting things out and dealing with others.
    I for one appreciate the effort that you all put in to the whole independence movement, so thank you.

  145. Colin Alexander


    If you really cared about the SNP you would drop the Coco rubbish.

    You are probably the worst bully on Wings. If I’m not posting, then you’re having goes at CameronB or others. Hounding and insulting people.

    I’m happy to praise Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP when they condemn such behaviour from people like you, whether they claim to be indy or unionist.

    It’s a shame all the pro-indy bloggers are then tarred with the same brush as the bullies.

    If you disagree with me or others, fine. You don’t have to resort to personal insults or threats.

  146. Robert Louis

    Eric Mclean at 410pm,

    That is the best post I’ve seen on here all week.

  147. Petra

    @ Mary McCabe at 3:30pm ….”As for the SNP politicians – some of them are clearly unhappy at the success of the AUOB rallies. They patronise those attending, making out it’s just a way for the wild and woolly to let off steam, to enjoy a party. They complain the activists should be out chapping doors instead…

    Where did that come from? Any evidence to support your claims?

    Looks as though some people (many) on here are now making it up as they go along.

  148. Cubby

    Robert Louis @4.48pm

    Thank you for putting aside your concerns. It is very good of you to vote for independence. Many thanks – please keep up the good work.

    Robert Louis@4.53pm

    Sorry to hear that you have had a difficult day. Mine has been fine. Keep voting SNP – agreed.

    These Herald “be nice” pills are still working well.

  149. Republicofscotland

    Well put Eric McLean 4.10pm.

  150. Robert Louis

    galamcennalath at 413pm,

    I have often said, that upon independence, we should start talking to london with an itemised bill of all the wealth they have literally stolen and squandered. Thatcher was no economic miracle, it was just that at that time, Scotland was pumping out more oil than qatar on a daily basis. That’s what paid for the M25, that’s what paid for eurotunnel, and tax cuts for the rich.

    And just for ‘fun’, here’s the live Norwegian sovereign wealth (oil) fund. The value drifts up and down with fluctuations in currencies etc…

    For the record, it’s approximately 805,530,175,690 of our Scottish pounds.

  151. David R

    I left The SNP a couple of years ago however my much more patient wife and lifelong indy and SNP supporter has stuck with them.

    She contact the SNP to ask about the cybernat nonsense and lack of SNP support for the march on Saturday. Once my wife explained that there had been a march on Saturday, something the SNP rep didn’t seem to be aware of they said they send her an email on Tuesday, why, who knows.

    After finding out about the arrest of the organiser she contacted them again, was passed on and then they hung up on her.

    The monthly subs are now going to The Brooke Org, better to support working horses and donkeys than a bunch of asses.

  152. Robert Peffers

    @Balaaargh says: 6 May, 2019 at 1:19 pm:

    ” … Secondly, I think Pete Wishart as speaker is a brilliant tactic for a number of reasons!”

    Oh! Get a grip! Pete is having them on. Westminster uses EVEL.

    How can they then allow any non-English person be the speaker who, under EVEL, has the job of deciding which items of business are English Only and then be the chairperson to handle the Commons debate on whatever, “The English Only”, matter happens to be.

  153. Capella

    The “healthy” journalist Neil Mackay is calling us the Branch Davidian wing of the cybernats now. That’s because we were speculating whether he is a MI5 plant. As good an explanation as any IMO for his cosy state funded position monetising unionism.

  154. Tony O"neill

    I would strongly encourage the whole yes movement to keep our famed discipline at this time. As it now appears to be that the opponents of scotlands freedom are now beginning their final desperate throws of the
    dice. So if online if it looks, sounds and quaks like our enemies it probably is, so don’t waste our valuable time and effort. Best course of action, cut them of at the knees ignore it block them, when they see their tactics aren’t working they will be coming more shrill and desperate, then they will become even easier to spot, not only to us who know their game, but more importantly to those who don’t.

  155. Dorothy Devine

    Ronnie , well done indeed!

    I forget the name of the pillock who demanded to know how money was accounted , I think you just invalidated him or her.

    Didn’t like you last paragraph ‘ may be your last hurrah’ unless you mean that independence is that close we won’t be needing to march.

  156. Robert Louis

    And there is cubby also proving the point I made at the start of the day.

  157. Cubby

    Colin Alexander@4.44pm

    As a well known SNP hater and general concern troll I must congratulate you on the logic of your decision to vote for independence by voting Scottish Green. Well done. Pity the Greens helped remove OFBF law thereby increasing sectarian violence in Scotland. Oh well I suppose you can’t have everything.

    Keep voting for independence.

    I think that was quite a nice comment – was it good for you.

  158. Dorothy Devine

    Capella , am I allowed to call him as nutty as a fruitcake if that is my considered opinion?

    Why did anyone give him the ‘accolade ‘ of being MI5 status for him to make much of it? He really isn’t bright enough to be recruited.

  159. Petra

    @ Robert Louis says at 4:37 pm …. ”re MI5, seen it suggested in the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ ‘news’ paper, of all places, that the HQ in Glasgow/Scotland is located in the criminal records office on pathetic quay, next door to the BBC. Still have no idea if it is true. Good planning by MI5 if it is, just a minute walking distance between their office and their extensive communication facility (BBC), conveniently located next door…”

    That makes sense RL, MI5 based at Pacific Quay. I wonder how many of their agents (plus others) visit this site on a regular basis?


    I see a number of people are castigating Alyn Smith SNP MEP on here. Could someone point out to me what he’s actually done wrong?

  160. Cubby

    Robert Louis @5.17pm

    Glad to be of assistance. Not sure how but hey it’s nice to be nice.

  161. Capella

    @ Dorothy Devine – yes. Remember you can call anyone anything you like as long as it is your honestly held opinion. Remember also to attach the hashtag #faircomment. Sheriiff’s rules.

  162. Robert Louis

    Capella at 512pm,

    The thing about Neil is even if he is assocated with the 77th brigade or one of the other propaganda agnecies of Westminster, he is always going to deny it. The papers in the UK are generally full of spooks – I recall some former editor saying something along those lines.

  163. Cubby

    Why do people think they need to be entirely happy with each member of a political party or its leaders or all its policies to vote for independence.

    I don’t care if John Swinney suddenly announced he had changed his mind and said the UK is OK and took to running naked around Glasgow Green with a placard to that effect. So bloody (00Ps am I still allowed to say that) what!

    If you want Scotland to be a normal independent country vote for it.

  164. Capella

    Well if he’s not getting paid for his unionist trolling then he’s an idiot. As the professional anti-Scot, Dr Johnston, said “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.” He did not add, “except for Scottish independence bloggers”.

  165. Socrates MacSporran

    As a “baby boomer”, my main reading material when growing-up – the nearest library was three miles awy – was the comics I READ. Back then, apart from the Beano, Dandy, Eagle and Topper, most of the kids comics had to be read.

    DC Thomson produced the Wizard, Rover, Adventure and Hotspur; full of tales of unlikely footballers: Limp Along Leslie, Nick Smith, Bernard Briggs; amazing athletes: Wilson and Alf Tupper, and of course, war heroes such as Sergeant Matt Braddock.

    They got us into tales of derring-do. Later as I grew up, I began to read war-time tales: I got Eric Williams’ “The Wooden Horse,” the tale of his escape from a POW camp, as a school prize.

    That got me interested in such stories – The Great Escape, the Colditz Story and the like.

    Now, for every Eric Williams, or Douglas Bader or Eric “Digger” Dowling, one of the leading lights in the team behind Harry the Tunnel and the Great Escape, there were probably five or ten guys who, if not exactly happy with the rations, the living conditions or the “care” of the Germans, were willing enough to sit out the war in Stalag Luft III or Colditz, awaiting the end of hostilities and repatriation.

    Some of these guys probably resented the aftermath of an escape attempt – the sudden inspections, the additional searches, the temporary loss of hard-earned priveleges.

    It’s the same with Independence. There are many in Scotland, who don’t like the treatment Scotland gets from Westminster, but, are quite content to endure our imprisonment as a colonial realm of Mother England. Some might even think, some day we will be free.

    If more of these Scots got off their arses and campaigned, that day of freedom will come sooner.

    But6, until that day, there will also be some Scots moaning and complaining about the way the agitators for freedom are winding-up the guards and making life difficult.

    It’s human nature. I don’t think we will ever be rid of these.

  166. Robert Louis


    I do however, agree with others, it seems somewhat unlikely that Neil is one of theirs. accusing folk of being MI5 is pretty pointless anyway, as honestly, folk will never know. Oh no, now I sound like one…..

    It’s all a bit like the Spanish inquisition.

  167. Petra

    @ Republicofscotland says at 5:11 pm … ”Well put Eric McLean 4.10pm.”

    I’ll second that. Great post Eric.


    @ David R says at 5:12 pm …. ”I left The SNP a couple of years ago however my much more patient wife and lifelong indy and SNP supporter has stuck with them. She contact the SNP to ask about the cybernat nonsense and lack of SNP support for the march on Saturday. Once my wife explained that there had been a march on Saturday, something the SNP rep didn’t seem to be aware of they said they send her an email on Tuesday, why, who knows. After finding out about the arrest of the organiser she contacted them again, was passed on and then they hung up on her. The monthly subs are now going to The Brooke Org, better to support working horses and donkeys than a bunch of asses.”

    What does the AUOB marches have to do with the SNP? The clue is in the name. Why contact them to find out about the the organiser of AUOB? They’ve got absolutely nothing to do with AUOB, far less the organiser. And SNP politicians actually did attend the march. Get your facts right. Sounds like another jackanory story if you ask me. Many posters now on here, over 50%, stating that I’ve left the SNP because blah, blah, blah did such and such, I’m leaving the SNP, that’s it I’m finished with them now, I’ve had enough of them, etc, etc. Are you folks for real? More to the point do you actually support Independence?

  168. Robert Louis

    Walter Scott had the right idea about our political leaders, whilst lamenting the closure of the Scots parliament;

    “when we had a king, and a chancellor, and parliament-men o’ our ain, we could aye peeble them wi’ stanes when they werena gude bairns – But naebody’s nails can reach the length o’ Lunnon”

    From ‘Heart of Midlothian’.

  169. Capella

    @ RL – I agree. I think it was Grouse Beater who told us all about the “Xmas Tree” files in the BBC. He’s suffered some backlash for his honesty.

    Craig Murray too. And Stu. Julian Assange. Quite a lengthy list of people who have been in the firing line. We still don’t know what will happen with Alex Salmond. Probably saving his court appearance for the start of an Indyref2 campaign.

    Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh, Michelle Thompson, Mark MacDonald, etc. The case surrounding Natalie McGarry is a bit puzzling. Now this latest arrest of the AUOB organiser.

    Anyone been arrested yet for election fraud?

  170. David

    There was me thinking they were trying to get all name calling and threats stopped by whoever is doing it and yes people are hiding behind their keyboards one of the things they are proposing is take away online anonymity if you don’t want it to happen don’t do it .

  171. DerekM

    Mackay is a useful idiot with dreams of being a media celebrity and big player therefore will play which ever line that gets himself noticed.

    He is neither a yoon or a nat he is worse he is a parasite making a living playing both sides in an attempt to create a hostile image that he can then process into sensationalism to put on the front cover of his rag.

    Man already lost one rag he will do what ever he can to keep hold of the second one because lose that and his dreams are toast.

    The SNP got played like a cheap fiddle on this one naive is too kind a word idiocy is more like it.

  172. Colin Alexander

    Robert Peffers

    How does Evel stop a Scots MP from being Speaker?

    I thought it’s at committee stage where Scots MPs are excluded?

    (The SNP should have withdrawn from the Commons when Evel was introduced.)

  173. jfngw

    My goodness the journalist who wants twitter cleaned up is now reduced to calling us loons. I suppose this is not abuse, as they see themselves as the arbitrator of twitter abuse.

    You don’t have to scratch the surface much for the holier than thou to reveal their own deeper feelings. So far today they have labelled people ‘trash’, loons, ‘needing neutralised’, and I haven’t even been looking in any depth.

  174. ahundredthidiot

    I might need to take my shoes off to count the things I disagree with the SNP on….

    ……and I will still be voting for them on 23rd May.

    and any other election after that. Until we win our Independence.

    Eyes on the Prize.

  175. yesindyref2

    These people like Mackay and Hunter are Cyberspoiltbrats and #Sturgeon should call them out for their abuse and brattinessivity.

  176. jfngw

    Maybe the AUOB can use the Dugdale ruling, he’s part of a minority (according to the mainstream political parties) and he just interpreted 11:30 differently from this mainstream view. Or the march did start at 11:30 it just took a couple of hours to get it going properly.

  177. Tony O"neill

    I will say this about the snp, the leader ship, especially the fm, mp’s and msp’s lack the physical guts imo, to confront the liars in the msm and our political opponents, cowardice in front of your own side is not a good look. Thousands upon thousands of men and women all over the world have gave their lives for freedom, many of whom in countries a lot less fortunate than ours. While our so called elected politicians who claim to be fighting hard to win our freedom, baulk at calling out the lies and the liars, for the fear of facing up to our oppositions totally guaranteed faux outrage. Cowardice has never in the entirety of human history ever won any nations history. So grow some balls and quick, fm and your elected colleagues.

  178. chicmac

    Nicola Sturgeon has several times implored the indy movement to demonstrate the demand for independence.

    After last year’s big march she declared she was delighted with the show of support it demonstrated.

    So it seems a tad unlikely that her underlings have somehow missed the message and that press skullduggery is a far more likely explanation.

  179. Hamish100

    The organiser for AUOB arrested?

    Has Police Scotland arrested any football player intentionally assaulting another person yet?

    Just asking.

  180. manandboy

    Self-centred posturing and hissy fits over the behaviour of SNP politicians. Please, fix your eyes on the prize.

    There is virtually nothing in Scotland which is preferable to Independence.

    Should an elected SNP politician come to your house and threaten you and your family with GBH, then you may be dispensed from the duty of voting SNP in the next election. For anything less, voting for Independence is, frankly, our only democratic priority.
    So please , make up your mind about whether you really want Independence or not, and then don’t let go. And if, after Independence, you want to have a hissy fit, then feel free. But for now, this is a time for mature consideration and a resolute decision about the future of a Nation.
    Please, do not allow yourself to become upset over what are actually trivialities – stay calm and get it right.

    For Independence, NO OTHER VOTE WILL DO, except for SNP.

  181. Robert Peffers

    @Giving Goose says: 6 May, 2019 at 3:02 pm:

    ” … Re Manny Singh arrest.
    It’ll be interesting to see what this is about.”

    I attempted to Google it and it seems to have something to do with breaking the conditions granted for permission for holding public processions. There are, however, so many ifs, buts and mibbies and cross references to other sections and subsections I just gave up.

    I assume it is to do with that change of time they tried to enforce far too close to the already arranged start time.

    Obviously deliberately planed, “By the Authorities”, to disrupt the transport arrangements made by more distant marchers.

    Now I’m guessing this is not going to endear whoever is bringing the charges to the indy movement but it rather looks like either Police Scotland or Glasgow Council.

  182. William Purves

    All independence supporters should use their own name and town name where appropriate. All noms-de-plumes should be taken with a pinch of salt.
    Whatever became of Maggie Thatcher’s answer in parliament, that if ever the SNP gained a majority of Scottish MPs in Westminster, Scotland could its independence.

  183. mr thms

    Why every supporter of independence should vote SNP in the election for the Parliament of the European Union

    This extract is from an interesting article by Aidan Quinn QC from 2012.

    “Further, Article 52(1) TEU specifies that the Treaty applies to “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. There is a respectable legal argument to be made that – given that Article 1 of the 1707 Articles of Union provides “that the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof, and for ever after, be united into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain” – the revocation of the British Union would mean not only independence for Scotland but also the dissolution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Barroso’s automaticity argument has any purchase, then it could be said that from a matter of a strict literalist reading of the Treaties – against the background of the constitutional history of the formation of the UK – a disunited Kingdom without Scotland would no longer be the Member State which originally signed up to the European Union and therefore the dissolution of the UK into separate States would result in none of the territory of the former United Kingdom remaining within the EU.”

    What if Article 50 was always all about an orderly succession?

  184. frogesque

    Re Manny Singh getting hi collar felt for organising the match to start at the advertised time of 1.30.

    Has Manky Jaiket also been lighted for his organising of the pathetic counter demo?

    No? ‘K then.

  185. frogesque

    Lifted not lighted!

  186. Dave McEwan Hill

    Is Glasgow Council trying to lose the city for the SNP?

  187. manandboy

    Ladies and Gentlemen the 100k strong AUOB Independence supporters. As you now would have heard i have been formally chraged with section 65 civic government act 1982. Firstly i want to say you may notice i don’t smile much at each March that is because my responsibility is to make sure everyone who attends the March is safe and protected, also that no distribution or infiltration takes place. Once It is over and last thing is done i smile. I worry about a lot of things that can go wrong and how to deal with them if any such situation was to arise. I have a dedicated volunteer stewards team, First Aid etc that make my life so much easier. Now i always knew that the unionist Glasgow City Council could push for this. I evaluated the risks to myself and only myself what would happen. If i defied GGC and thier ridiculous demands to keep numbers low. Worst case a heavy fine and 3 months custodial sentence. That is nothing compared to others not just in Scotland but world wide. Who endured death torture jail to make thier nations free.

    The truth is police Scotland have had orders from above to arrest me, we can all guess who pushed for this. Police Scotland used emergency powers and facilitied the March that took place on May 4th 2019 . A new historical record was set beating the previous one set in Edinburgh of 100k. They made sure a peaceful March took place. The chief inspector Audrey Hand and the Police Liason officer worked well with me. They helped me get the M8 and other roads shutdown. This is not a easy task as some may think. The March on the 4th of May 2019 speaks for it self a fun family friendly people Marching to make thier country free from oppression. No arrests no violence no property damage etc.

    The repetition of the Independence movement upheld and surpassed broadcasted across the world.

    Now this goes to the procurator fiscal’s office who will now decide. if it serves public interest in taking me to court. That decision won’t be up the P.F but will come from high up.

    I always have said when trying to fight the British Empire you can bend a knee and sell out. Or you do what is necessary to make your country free without harming another.

    You win the hearts and minds with knowledge, love and with a vision. For a new Scotland 30 year plan 2030, 2040, 2050

    So i am used to the slander malicious lies and constant attacks from people on my side also.

    In the end it is not a about a pro independence organisation, political parties, an individual but the movement it self that is made up of everyone of you.

    One of my favourite qoutes and so, in the words of Frederic Douglas:

    “Those who profess to favour freedom and yet depreciate agitation are people who want crops without ploughing the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning, they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both- but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand, it never has and it never will.”

    I will continue to defy any restrictions from the powers to be in a peaceful manner. Until we are an independent Nation. I will never sell out and do the best i can for the Soil of the Nation i was born in. Now it is time for Scotland to Rise from the shackles of the British Empire run from Westminster.

    Thank you i hope i haven’t disappointed you all too much.

    Mandeep Singh

  188. Legerwood

    Petra @ 5.39 PM

    Well said and your earlier post(s) too.

    I really despair at some people.

    The article on Sunday reported comments that Angus Robertson had already made at a fringe meeting at the SNP conference and they were reported in The Herald on the 28th April. Therefore he has not said anything to this reporter that he has not said directly to party members.

    So the Herald is recycling old news and attaching an inflammatory title to it to provoke a response such as the ones that are all too prevalent on this thread and the earlier one.

    As to the ‘monetisation’ attributed by the Herald to some in the Yes movement they are one to talk. Look at the paper or online Herald any day and you will see plenty of click-bait titles aimed at getting a response from people and one of the most frequent responses is that the title does not reflect the content as is the case with this example from the Sunday Herald.

    An article on Richard Leonard’s latest policy – 5 comments
    An article on any SNP/SG related item – 150 comments. What is that if not monetization of Yes?

  189. Colin Alexander

    Manny Singh: “Freedom can never be won by bending the knee.”

  190. DerekM

    @ Manandboy We know that but as the new employers of politicians in our country its our job to let them know when they make a wee mistake yeah 😉

    Not going to stop indy mate its just another squirrel all be it a dancing and singing one that a few of our politicians clapped and sang along with instead of ignoring.

    Not sure telling cybernats that they be bad is a good idea never worked in the past all it does is make more cybernats lol

  191. Hamish100


    This will is just ridiculous.

    Call as witnesses 100000 people who were in attendance.

    I expect Police Scotland will arrest the criminal who stole flags and risked the life’s of motor cyclists on the same day.

    I expect those shouldn’t foul abuse to the marchers be arrested.

    First they charge you, then your friend, then your neighbour……… then its you. To paraphrase

  192. Ken500

    Neil McKay is a dunce. The Herald is tanking. No one believes a word they say. The story was made up nonsense. Everyone in Scotland knows it. That’s why they do not buy it.

    The Herald website is a mess.

    The National wants subscription but people can’t sign up without problems. Making it impossible. The ‘change password’ does not even function. There is no link sent. People are sceptical about a subcription to the National. In case it benefits the Herald, Newsquest is a mess. Unless they put their house in order, there will be no subscriptions to the National. People want to take out monthly. In case it offends, it can be cancelled with ease.

    Wings goes from strength to strength. Calling out the ‘psycho bastards’ politicians on the internet. Does the world a favour. Unlike those posturing on MSM. Lie, after lie, after lie. Liars always get found out.

    If they can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. They put themselves forward. Get well remunerated and protected. Privilege position. Unlike most of the rest of the struggling population in dire straits.

  193. ronnie anderson

    Dorothy Devine Yes Independence is that close .

    Sunshine U & your Wife must be fae the posh end of Scotland Thats whit ELBOWS ur fur pushing your way tae the front lol .

  194. Hamish100

    Sooty Manny. Prescriptive text.

  195. Hamish100


  196. Colin Alexander

    @ Manny Singh

    Respect to you.

  197. Abulhaq

    If mr Singh has a sense of history he might recognize the colonial pattern. Don’t do the dirty deed yourself, get some local agents, ones you trust, to do it. That way two birds, one stone.
    The closer we get to independence, the more frequent ‘tricks’ of the kind.
    Unionist Cyborg#1 will laugh herself hoarse at this one.

  198. Confused

    the SNP and wider YES movement should not antagonise the mainstream newspapers and media
    – these talented and dedicated professionals are, after all, the fourth estate

    imagine if they turned against us

  199. Confused

    AUOB will have NO problems whatsoever with regulations as long as it explains that
    AUOB = Apprentice Unionist Orange Boys

  200. frogesque

    @Colin Alexander.

    Rarely agree with you but this once you at spot on.

    Manny deserves our respect. We all have a right to roam. We all have a right to peaceful demonstration (© Nicola Sturgeon).

    If a fighting fund for his defence is required then I’ m in!

  201. Ken500

    Who is being charged? Mandeep Singh?

    Police Scotland arrest and charge so many people on charges that cannot come to Court. 50%. It is an utter disgrace. They put people in cells overnight on ‘charges’ that cannot come to Court. On malicious complain. Often not disclosed or known liars. A total waste of public money and legal fees for people. The ‘charges ‘ are thrown out repeatedly. After traumatising people.

    They are trying to criminalise the whole population. Build a crime empire. To give them something to do. There are far too many people on the spectrum in prison. 50%. There is no training for diversity, support should be given in the community. Thatcher ‘Care in the community’ Prison. A total waste of public money. An absolute scandal.

  202. Ken500

    Manny Singh will get full support of the Independence Movement. Plenty of lawyers out there to give support and a fighting fund organised.

    What a total damn cheek. Have faith.

  203. Scot Finlayson

    One of my first memories (70`s i think) of anything `SNP`,

    was being taken/dragged on a march with my parents (both members) to Bannockburn,

    i have pictures and we were definitely under an SNP branch banner ,Edin West,

    seemed marching and flags and banners and happy people were a good thing back then.

  204. winifred mccartney

    I’m sorry but you must comply with the law and with reasonable requests about timing etc. I was at the march on Sat and would not have gone if I thought for one minute you had lied about the start time of 1.30 being finally agreed.

    It is unforgivable to those taking part in good faith, if you lied because then trust is broken and as Aldi say ‘when it gone, it’s gone’. This trust is what has been broken between many of us and other political parties and must not be broken in the indy movement. We cannot give the powers that be any excuse to stop us.

    I would like to know if permission was given for the 1.30 start or if it was not given. If people are told the truth they can choose wether to support you or not but if told lies you demean yourself and all of us.

  205. Ken500

    Glasgow City Council has an SNP majority? What on earth is going on? Susan Aitken is SNP leader. She is really smart. A great speaker. A great support.

    There will be plenty to lend support. Do not worry. There will not be defeat.

  206. red sunset

    “must comply with the law and with reasonable requests about timing etc”

    But it seems the timing was known and notified about a year ago. Presumably agreed by the council.
    Then the council wanted to change that at almost the last minute – after all the arrangements had been made.
    Money had been spent by lots of folk – travel arrangements made, and whatnot.

    It’s not good to blame one party if the other party changed the rules at the last minute.

  207. Capella

    Manny Singh says The truth is police Scotland have had orders from above to arrest me, we can all guess who pushed for this

    I can’t guess who pushed for this. Can anyone enlighten me?

    I would have thought he could only be arrested because someone made a complaint. Even then, anyone who has worked in public service or support for victims will know it is virtually impossible to get anyone arrested simply by making a complaint.

    Yet, we know of independence supporters with a public profile seem to get arrested at the drop of a hat. Which century are we living in?

  208. Ken500

    The March was totally well, run and well supported. There was absolutely no trouble.

    The Police are a disgrace. They will over reach themselves once to many times.

    Do not worry. What a cheek.

    There is more trouble at a Glasgow football game or the constant incessant Orange Marches. Misogynist, racist, bigoted, unequal and exclusive. The Police do not object to them. To many members? They are banned elsewhere. All over Scotland.

  209. Dorothy Devine

    Would knowing the start time had been changed by the council and not by the organisers have stopped me joining in? Nah!

    A wee bit civil disobedience , the start of not playing by Brit Nat rules.

    Nasty cybernats unite!

  210. Ken500

    People can get arrested from malicious complaint. That the Police know are lies. It happens all the time, Innocent people being put in cells overnight on charges that can never be taken to Court. Costing £Millions. An absolute disgrace.

    They arrest innocent people and threaten to handcuff them. Take them to court in chains. On ‘charges’ that can never come to Court. They get thrown out. Lying reports. With witnesses.

  211. Robert Peffers

    @JMD says: 6 May, 2019 at 4:54 pm:
    ” … Do I think that some SNP politicians are out of touch with their support and/or have been “compromised”? Yes
    Who will I be making a point of voting for on 23rd May?

    I’ve said it till I’m blue in the face but here I am needing to say it again but I’ll try another tack this time.

    No matter who you think are the bad guys in this particular episode makes not a blind bit of difference. If you post your comments on Wings or on any other online blog it will make not a bit of difference. What it will do is boost the unionists and enforce their belief that their plans to disrupt whatever blog you posted to and the unionist’s campaign as a whole.

    However, if you take your concerns to whichever SNP politician you are displeased with, or the FM, SG or SNP directly you know they have to listen and your feelings will register where they will do most good.

    Now I’ll have the usual suspects on my case, yet again, and the reason is they do not want you to know that. They will have got here long before you dripping where they know it will have least impact on the actual people you are concerned about but the most impact upon the Independence movement for that is their main agenda.

    It’s the same guys every time – why do you think that is? Do you think it is because they want to help the independence movement or to hinder it?

    Consider this – I have, in the past, posted links to the FM’s email address, the SGs email address and the SNPs email address. Yet these people are on here 24/3/365 running down the FM/SG and SNP.

    Now get this – they always claim hat I say that no one should complain about the FM/SG/SNP. Yet here I am saying to do so if you feel you need to but do it to them directly where it will have some effect. Either that or, if you are an SNP member, get a seconder and bring it up at a branch meeting.

    Now is that saying no one should complain or is it saying do not help the unionists by complaining on an open forum?

    These people can only have two possible motives one is to convince others to run down the indy cause and two is to convince others to complain on an open forum.

  212. starlaw

    Having read Manny Singh’s statement I think he is right. Having watched both BBC and STV’s evening news’s nothing was reported about this arrest, so I assume that the police have not told them or the MSM would have been all over it like flies to the well you know. This stinks of strings being pulled further up, best to do nothing just now but await developments.

  213. Dr Jim

    Just think if Independence isn’t delivered you can vote Tory and inflict upon Scotland what the Unionists think they want

    That’ll learnem

  214. frogesque

    I was well aware of the advertised start time, the very late intervention to change the start time and the subsequent confirmation of the AUOB of the original start time following discussion with the Polis.

    GDC may not have liked it and I daresay there was opposition from some quartets to have any sort of Indy march.

    Like voting in Brexit and Indy 1 I knew exactly what I was voting for. My feet voted on Saturday.

    Anyone doesn’t like that then fuck you and get me arrested for exercising my free will. If the Courts think they can cope with 100k Actions the chuffin well bring it on and we will all sing Kum ba yah in the cells.

    I am heat sick of playing by Unionist and sycophantic rules.

  215. jfngw

    I see we have a new acronym, WaPs. Apparently Wives and Policies of the potential Tory leaders. Thank goodness they’ve steered clear of any racism, close call though. The sexism is of course totally acceptable in Conservative circles.

  216. Effijy

    Je suis Manny Singh!

    How about Westminster demands the arrest of all 100,000 plus
    Peaceful demonstrators and incarserates them in an overflowing
    English Prison?

    Maybe ship us all off to Botany Bay? Oh forgot. They lost that Colony previously.

    Westminster beat to death many Indian protestors before they became free.

    Westminster allowed machine guns to be turn on to men, women and children
    At an Irish Football match.

    Westminster starved to death Women and Children in South Africa.

    Are you just warming up with bogus arrests Westminster?

    Our day is closer than ever now!

  217. Robert Peffers

    @Colin Alexander says: 6 May, 2019 at 4:57 pm:

    ” ,,, geeo
    If you really cared about the SNP you would drop the Coco rubbish.
    You are probably the worst bully on Wings.”

    Wasn’t it me you were accusing of being the worst bully on Wings, not so long ago, Colin?

    ” … If I’m not posting, then you’re having goes at CameronB or others. Hounding and insulting people.”

    But, Colin you only ever post to complain about the FM/SG or SNP and not necessarily in that order. This in spite of it being very clear that complains here on Wings have little or no effect except t0 put off potential Yes converts.

    While direct complaints to whoever you feel aggrieved about will be effective. It cannot be because you are shy or something for you are as fast as a rat up a drainpipe to complain directly to Geeo or to myself.

    ” … I’m happy to praise Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP when they condemn such behaviour from people like you, whether they claim to be indy or unionist.”

    Strange hen that I’ve never seen a singe comment from you praising Nicola Sturgeon for anything and I have an excellent memory.

  218. Hamish100

    From my experience you can’t start the parade without the Police giving the ok . Why?

    We’ll they have the CCTV , the know if an ambulance or fire tender is enroute or a unionist is standing on a main road damaging property or threatening the lives of motorcyclist.

    They give the nod to start as the command back watching the march says ok. If they do not they are not doing their job. At ANY point the police can say stop.

  219. yesindyref2

    I was aware there was a potential problem with the start time, not sure if it had been resolved but quite frankly the SNP led prissy Glasgow Council could get it right up them.

    Anyways, I’ve been applying some basic principles of physics, and at v = u + ft, where u is of course 0 as he’s at rest, and v is approximately 36,700 ft/s, then at a steady 1/10th g (3.2 fps per second), applied for 36,700 / 3.2 seconds, it appears Neil Mackay can be given escape velocity in less than 200 minutes and sent on his way to join his beloved loons.

    I recommend this course of action.

  220. Cubby

    Now I realise there may not be many football supporters reading this but what sort of society allows a goalkeeper to launch a Kung fu style kicking assault on a player with his back turned to him and the ball not in the vicinity, in front of thousands of spectators and shown widely on television, and the police do nothing about the assault. On the other hand a march organiser is arrested for a timing dispute.

    The violence at football has escalated this year – Kelly Labour MSP – well done. Proud of yourself.

    The Herald “be nice pills” are wearing off.

    Scottish Greens are you proud of yourself. I bet none of you have ever attended a match.

  221. jfngw

    @robert Peffers

    I don’t agree, I think it is OK for Yes and SNP supporters to vent their frustration on here, it is mostly independence supporters that will be on here. In fact it may give the unionists lurkers the false impression they are winning.

    Most unionists will be stuck BTL on the MSM sites, apart from a few like Murdo who is probably at this minute still admiring his Queen’s eleven supporter in George Square on Saturday, repeat loop I imagine.

  222. Cubby

    Robert Peffers@7.53pm

    Mr Alexander shooting up a rain pipe – I would pay to see that. Hope that isn’t too nasty a comment..

  223. Effijy

    The authorities had concerns about a potential 100,000 marchers turning up.

    Well thank God for the BBC as their word is gospel and cannot be questioned
    So they assure that there was only 30,000 there.

    Great the case can be dropped now the Beeb has spoken.

  224. frogesque

    @yesindyref2: 7.55

    An elegant mathematical solution to the age old problems of solving the ? of fuckoff.

  225. frogesque

    ? Should be a square root sign. Sigh!

  226. G. Campbell

    Alyn Smith is worried that the SNP winning a third MEP will take attention away from him.

    His cunning plan to depress the nat vote is genius.

  227. yesindyref2

    That works too!

  228. Jock McDonnell

    Good piece.
    I’m pretty much a fundamentalist but I take a considered view on this stuff.
    There is much effort put into destroying the Yes movement. Fear, hate, distrust, abuse, lies, these are the weapons of choice. When I saw the claims that our senior figures were at war with cybernats, I thought ‘oh really?’.
    The first thing I did was not click on the links. I could smell the bullshit. And it turns out that this ‘war’ is nothing but some appeals for civility across the debate. I wouldn’t have made that sort of appeal if I was in a senior role, I’m a fundamentalist, but I realise the scrutiny our leadership is under and they are trying to reach out. We won’t win without converts. So if I get the chance, I’ll tell our msps etc that I’m not happy about something but it will be done privately. Ignore the lies & provocations.

  229. Balaaargh


    For a start, the speaker has deputies and EVEL does not prevent a speaker from outwith England. Such a rule would be damaging to all parties in WM and discriminatory to all MPs outside of England.

  230. Hamish100

    Police Scotland, Glasgow division warning folk over travel advice in Edinburgh.

    Weirdly there does not appear similar information re the Glasgow event. Has the information been pulled? I certainly didn’t know about the time change. How would folk travelling by coach, by ferry, by train know about it. No info on Police Scotland facebook either. Why is this funny? Just other past events are still online.

  231. Cubby

    It is noticeable that on a day when the main item of discussion has been abusive comments the recent permanently abusive mad Britnat is nowhere to be seen.

    Probably gone back to the Scotsman btl where he belongs.

  232. Colin Alexander

    Robert Peffers

    I was critical of you in the past but, in my opinion you have listened to constructive criticism and toned things down a bit.

    So, credit where it’s due.

  233. G H Graham

    Been saying from day 1 – The Sunday Herald is a Trojan Horse. It always has been – a not so subtle nor really that clever attempt at luring supporters of independence only to subvert support by sewing seeds of discourse & doubt.

    Neil Mackay is at the forefront of this strategy if not of its making fully aided & abetted with Unionist money.

    SNP MSPs, MEPs & MPs who gleefully take up Mackay’s invites to scorn the alleged abusive element within the independence movement only serve to prove that they have little understanding of the nature of BritNat propaganda & how it is orchestrated.

    And because there is a long list of self serving politicians within the SNP (please don’t puff in your reply below that they are fundamentally that much different from the rest of the careerists in Westminster), the BritNat propaganda need not be that sophisticated not even clever.

    It is disappointing that the SNP have blown their best chance in four years at setting up a second referendum while the Tory government was immersed in Brexit chaos.

    And this leads one to wonder if Nicola Sturgeon really just prefers to prioritize aggressive, feminist driven, employment targets & universal toilet access for ladyboys over returning Scotland to full sovereign independence.

    I can’t be the only one to be seriously questioning her leadership skills, tactical timing & capacity to set aside petty gender arguments while Scots witness their rights to self determination be ridiculed & sidelined by sneering jobsworths in London.

  234. Elmac

    Sunday was a happy occasion. Over 100k people demonstrating their support for an independent Scotland in a non confrontational, peaceful manner. The only potential trouble was the loud, offensive behaviour and baiting by a puny group of neanderthal scum at George square. The Police were wonderful and deserve much credit. For them it was a PR success.

    Lets wait and see who is behind this arrest and whether any valid reasons can be given. If it is, as it appears, politically motivated by some jobsworths on the GCC then it may be time for a little people power such as witholding rates payments until the instigator(s) have been brought to book and sacked. We must have some accountability in public office. These kind of actions cannot be allowed to continue.

  235. Cubby

    Baaaargh@8.36 pm

    EVEL is discriminatory against all non England MPs. EVEL creates second class MPs and undermines Westminster as the parliament of the UK.

    With regards to the speaker position I cannot speak ( no pun) for Peffers but my point was that he would not get the votes not that there was some sort of formal rule.

  236. Liz g

    Can I just ask how everyone would feel if the OO decided that they were just going to go ahead and March past that church and do it at a time of their choosing?
    There was no need for any of this,he got his free pass from Historic Scotland last year and it seems learned nothing.
    If it’s not sheer incompetence at organising then ….
    It’s beginning to look like a manufactured situation?

  237. Ken500

    Do not worry Mr Singh. Keith Brown and Chris McEleny spoke at the Msrch/Rally. They are government representatives. Others were there. Does that make them accomplices and accessories after the fact. Not likely. Any ‘charges’ will probably be dropped as usual. Not criminal or disobedience at all. A well run march and a good time was had by all. A great event on the path to Independence. Keep going. Do not be defeated.

  238. Dan

    @ronnie anderson at 8:38 pm

    That link looks to date a meeting on the 24th April. That seems a little late for the council to be amending the start time.
    By that date there had already been numerous coaches booked by various YES groups from all over Scotland that had advertised and allocated tickets to passengers.
    That’s hundreds of people that had made plans to attend at a specific time.
    It would be virtually impossible to successfully alter coach booking times and notify passengers of the change.

    Having been involved in arranging buses and marshalling coaches to virtually all the AUOB marches I can tell you there is a great deal of effort put in to ensure our group organises things to run as smoothly as possible.

    I would have thought with an earlier start time it would be more likely to clash with Saturday morning rush hour if traffic congestion is sited as an issue?

  239. Ken500

    Neil McKay just does not think. Like a lot of them. MSM His writing is quite mild in it’s content. Look back at his articles. Pretty poor innocuous. Obviously wanting to make a name for himself. The arrogance attention. Overstep the mark and totally show their ignorance. Then everyone is raging.

    Some of the Press do not step back and think what it’s like, or going to look like, in the real world. Way out of touch. On another planet of priviledge and accessibility. Not acceptable to the regular punter. They just get too big for their boots, forget to tie their shoe laces and fall over. All over the place. Make a fool of themselves. Then cry ‘what’. When everyone take the mick or wonders. So immature of their own making. Unsophisticated.

  240. Petra

    @ Legerwood says at 6:34 pm …. ”I really despair at some people. The article on Sunday reported comments that Angus Robertson had already made at a fringe meeting at the SNP conference and they were reported in The Herald on the 28th April. Therefore he has not said anything to this reporter that he has not said directly to party members. So the Herald is recycling old news and attaching an inflammatory title to it to provoke a response such as the ones that are all too prevalent on this thread and the earlier one.”..

    I really do despair too Legerwood. This site is becoming more of an anti-SNP site. In fact it looks as though it won’t be too long before it’s actually an anti-Independence site. What really amazes me most of all is how easily some people are being duped on here.


    @ winifred mccartney says at 7:01 pm …”I’m sorry but you must comply with the law and with reasonable requests about timing etc. I was at the march on Sat and would not have gone if I thought for one minute you had lied about the start time of 1.30 being finally agreed. It is unforgivable to those taking part in good faith, if you lied because then trust is broken and as Aldi say ‘when it gone, it’s gone’. This trust is what has been broken between many of us and other political parties and must not be broken in the indy movement. We cannot give the powers that be any excuse to stop us. I would like to know if permission was given for the 1.30 start or if it was not given. If people are told the truth they can choose whether to support you or not but if told lies you demean yourself and all of us.”

    Spot on Dorothy. As far as I can make out permission was not given for a 1:30pm start. Manny Singh had no idea either of how many people would turn up on Saturday, as an example it could have been 200,000 and as far as I know he doesn’t have the knowledge or qualifications to carry out a risk assessment in relation to such a situation. That’s what the Council, Police and Fire Service are there to do. I also noticed that he was calling for additional stewards just 24 hours before the walk was due to commence. Why had that not been dealt with months previously?

    AUOB also seems to be a bit of a closed shop, such as we have absolutely no idea how many meetings, between AUOB / GCC were held, where and when and we ultimately have no idea when GCC / the Police and so on laid down their conditions. It would help if Manny could produce the minutes of meetings instead of his spiel. Let us all have a look at them to see what’s been going on.

    More than anything I don’t trust Manny Singh (et al) now, especially as he has lied to us previously and breached our trust in the worst possible way. I reckon the power of being able to whip up support from thousands of Independence supporters has gone to his head and he thinks that because of the sheer numbers he has at his beck and call he can hold the Police, and so on, over a barrel now.

    He says, ”Now i always knew that the unionist Glasgow City Council could push for this.”

    However it’s not a Unionist Council at all. It’s controlled by the SNP who supported the march.

    He says, ”I evaluated the risks to myself and only myself what would happen. If i defied GGC and thier ridiculous demands to keep numbers low. Worst case a heavy fine and 3 months custodial sentence. That is nothing compared to others not just in Scotland but world wide. Who endured death torture jail to make thier nations free.”

    Too bad that he didn’t consider evaluating the risks to the general public rather than himself. If someone was to be injured / worse still die due to him blatantly ignoring specialist advice what would that do to to our cause? More than anything of course to the relatives and friends of those affected. Some of his diatribe actually comes across as him now seeing himself as Mahatma Gandi 2.

    ”The truth is police Scotland have had orders from above to arrest me, we can all guess who pushed for this.”

    He wouldn’t know the truth if it slapped him on the face. It was already being reported last week what would happen if he went ahead with his plans and that included fines / arrest.

    He says, ”The chief inspector Audrey Hand and the Police Liason officer worked well with me. They helped me get the M8 and other roads shutdown.”..

    Suffering from delusions of grandeur.

    He says, ”I always have said when trying to fight the British Empire you can bend a knee and sell out. Or you do what is necessary to make your country free without harming another.”

    No knee bending was requested or required. The Council etc had agreed to the walk going ahead. The only stipulation was that it should be held earlier to avoid coinciding with the build up of traffic and pedestrians in Glasgow.

    He says, ”I will continue to defy any restrictions from the powers to be in a peaceful manner. Until we are an independent Nation.”

    Well if that’s the case I, my family and friends won’t be attending further walks.

    Every walk that has been advertised has gone ahead, so why on earth would anyone want to put an end to this through sheer bl**dy-mindedness? Surely we have someone else out there who could get the job done with less hassle, such as breaking the law?

  241. Brian Doonthetoon

    Hi Ken500 at 7:14 pm.

    You typed,

    “The Police are a disgrace. They will over reach themselves once to many times.”

    Nah, got to pull you up on that. I’ve been to umpteen marches, rallies and BBC demos since 2014 and the police presence has ALWAYS been exemplary.

    Police Scotland serve us, the people of Scotland. From Facebook, I read that a tory Glasgow Councillor made a complaint about the march timing. I can’t vouch for the veracity of what I read on Facebook. However, the complaint being made, Police Scotland had to act on it, as the tory Councillor is also one of whom Police Scotland serve.

    Manny Singh has no problem with Police Scotland’s handling of his arrest so why do you come down heavily on Police Scotland?

    I will remind you of this – a wee policeperson called Sam, posing with Dundee’s RIC pandas and various Wingers, outside the BBC at Plantation Quay in 2014.

  242. frogesque

    @Balaaargh: 8.36

    Ultimately it is the Speaker’s responsibility to decide what is and is not appropriate to be considered under EVEL.

    There is no way that responsibility would be handed to an MP with a Scottish seat. Especially an SNP member.

    Same for Wales and Plaid etc.

  243. Liz g

    Petra @ 9.10
    Well said Petra,if he can’t get a match organised properly then he should step aside for those who could.
    He should never have advertised a start time till it was confirmed by the Council.

  244. robertknight

    Police don’t decide who gets prosecuted.

    Crown Office & Procurator Fiscal Service will determine, on the basis of Police report and whether in interest of the public, if the ‘accused’ ends up in court.

    Crowd funder if he does surely?

  245. Legerwood

    Petra @ 9.10 PM

    Sadly those have been my thoughts for some time now. Too many people too easily manipulated and too ready to put the worst possible construction on things.

  246. yesindyref2

    Well, we do have to be careful not to get into this situation:

    With plans for a march lodged last September I think, and you can never be sure how many will come, you have to ask is it reasonable to wait till March and then ask for the times to be brought forward from a time of 1.30pm giving people from a wide swathe of Scotland time to get there, inclduing islands with ferries, to 11am – 2 and a half hours earlier? Singg did offer 1, a half hour earlier, and to accept the change of route. There was no compromise offered on the other side.

    I think that’s unreasonable and obstructive, and enters Tom Sharpe’s territory. Like many things, there should be time limits to when objections can be raised, and for a submission carried out 8 months ago, 4 months would seem to me to be reasonable – i.e. January NOT late March.

    There was no danger element, Police Scotland were on the job, as were the Fire Service. There was also an ambulance went down George Square as I remember, possibly just before the march reached it.

    They can arrest me if they like, as far as this is concerned, whatever other faults he might have, Je Suis Manny Singh.

  247. Petra

    @ Liz g says at 8:50 pm …. ”Can I just ask how everyone would feel if the OO decided that they were just going to go ahead and March past that church and do it at a time of their choosing?
    There was no need for any of this, he got his free pass from Historic Scotland last year and it seems learned nothing.
    If it’s not sheer incompetence at organising then ….
    It’s beginning to look like a manufactured situation?”

    Spot on Liz. And can you imagine how we would all feel seeing the OO conjure up bus loads from Ireland .. 100,000 plus .. with all of the trouble that would entail, and tell Police Scotland like Manny Singh that, ”they will continue to defy any restrictions from the powers that be.”

    We detest them, OO, as no doubt others detest us. The strength of argument that we have on our side is the fact that we are a ”broad church” of good natured, law-abiding people looking to convert others to our cause. Manny Singh, for whatever reason, looks to be hell bent in destroying our relationship with the Police, Fire Service, Councils and more so the public in general.

  248. Ken500

    No one was harmed at all by the March/Rally. There was absolutkri no incident. There is more trouble in Glasgow Street on an ordinary Saturday/Sunday. Or at some football Marches. Or incessant loyalists Marches taking over the streets. It is just Indepedences Marches that are singled for this different treatment.

    One Independence March 2013? Edinburgh before the IndyRef. Was all organised. People coming from all over. Trips hotels booked. Expense spent. Time off etc. At the last minute. A day before. Council officials started to demand £thousands in insurance payments. Unexpectedly.

    One of the organisers in the know got an entertainment’s licence for £10. Local bye Laws. That saved the day. Otherwise the March could have had to be cancelled. A catastrophe, which could have prevented other subsequent Marches. Disappointing half the population. Unfair and unjust. The March went off spectacular and was a great success. No problems. Alex Salmond and others were speaking in the Gardens later. Princes Street. Always remember it. It was a joyous occasion. Although half of Edinburgh did not know it was going on. The usual cover up and lsck of forward publicity. Just on the internet. Or more people could have joined in.

    The New Year celebrations have thousands at them little problems or protest. They are a rabble. Including intoxication. Many sporting events with thousands in the streets. The Commonweakth Games, Festivals, mass concerts go off without a hitch. Little complaint. Just the Independence Marches separated out for special derogatory treatment. Not fair treatment. There are even gaming fairs for thousands. World Golf events. Accommodated. Thousands.

    Yet a few hours March bring so much controversial commentary. Illogical.

  249. Robert Peffers

    O/T: Here’s a wee song for those Wingers who just can’t wait for Nicola to go for Indyref 2:-

  250. Liz g

    Petra @ 9.31
    Exactly Petra if any of the Councils want to stop our marches he is giving them all the excuse they’d need.
    Why would they agree when he’s publicly stating,he’ll defy any restrictions?
    We would have nae argument that we’d the right to March if we’re constantly being manipulated into breaking the safety rules!!

  251. Ken500

    Manny Singh and associates are heroes for organising the Marches. An asset to the cause. Without them there would be less Marches and less publicity for Independence. No harm was done at all. Accessible for all. Harmless fun which which really well for a purpose. Yet people are complaining about this site and the Indy Marches. Quite weird. On an Indy site.

  252. Ken500

    Just to change the subject. Wasn’t ‘Line of Duty’ a but weird, The corrupt police? All of them at it. Clueless. Some folk fell asleep. Missed the final glory, gory muck up. Always the repeats. Trying to make heads or tales out of it.

  253. Jockanese Wind Talker

    So SNP polling at definitely returning 3 MEPs but also with a real possibility of returning 4 MEPs (2/3 of Scotlands MEPs)!

    The only thing that can stop this (and its message that Scotland wants to remain in the EU and is on a polar opposite trajectory to Brexit England) is if the SNP don’t get the vote out on the 23rd.

    And we get this, followed by comments like Colin Alexander says at 2:41 pm designed at splitting the vote.

  254. jfngw


    Because if people are effectively in breach of the law then you expect the organisers to be transparent with them and all the marchers are aware of what the consequences could be. The idea that the marchers, many children, are cannon fodder to be used without consent is not acceptable.

    Asking for honesty is not an unacceptable complaint.

  255. Famous15

    For the record I emphatically assert my wish for Scottish independence.

    I obey all laws. I think Police Scotland do a very good job and strive for fairness generally ,but common sense and personal knowledge indicate they have a UK agenda in security matters.

    I have thoroughly enjoyed the friendship of two AUOB marches. Wonderful and inviting to all.

    I do not know or care what Mr Wishart is up to re Speaker post but guess all will be revealed and his ploy explained.

    I do care that a paid employee of the SNP used an official Twitter address to “congratulate” Kezia Dugdale ” for her indefatigability” or some such.

    I resent Mackay twisting and conflating Robertson’s words to fit his narrative.I do not think Mackay is MI5, I think he is what he plainly is. Not my cup of tea.

    I wish to hell that more residents in Scotland could see what I see and support independence but I know it is close. I trust the SNP leadership are not sitting on their hands and are waiting for the optimum moment.

    I try always to be polite when posting but understand the catharsis of a well directed expletive as exemplified mostly by
    Rev Stu.

    I do not know the identity of posters so evaluate what is written and ignore mischief makers.

    I will vote SNP SNP until independence is achieved and who knows if Labour field a strong team post indy they might then get my vote.

  256. Capella

    @ ronnie anderson – thx for posting the GCC minutes. It looks the Organiser failed to comply with the conditions for holding a march and rally. It is unlikely he will ever get permission to hold another one. So the leadership of AUOB will have to change or another organisation take over events. Someone with better communication skills would be good.

    Still, apart from the start time it does seem to have been well planned and peaceful. Hope it gets sorted out soon as there are a few in the pipeline.

  257. Robert Peffers

    @Colin Alexander says: 6 May, 2019 at 5:52 pm:
    ” … How does Evel stop a Scots MP from being Speaker?”

    I already explained it a little bit upthread. It is the speaker who has the job of deciding which Commons business is to be English only Business. What if Pete decided that Scottish Independence was English only Business?

    Anyway Pete knows full well the Speaker is chosen by the whole house. Which, other than SNP and Plaid Cymru would vote for Pete?

  258. Jockanese Wind Talker

    As for being called a ‘CyberNat’

    We are all ‘CyberNats’ in the eyes of the British Nationalists.

    If you believe in Independence for Scotland and blog, post, tweet, comment BTL etc. in support of this online then in the eyes of the BritNats (the jealous Byres Road types of Bella etc) and the politically correct then you are a ‘CyberNat’.

    I for one have been called a lot worse by better than them and it won’t stop me believing in an Independent Scotland and making that belief a reality.

  259. jfngw


    The end of Line of Duty was a bit weak, looked like they had been given the go ahead for another series at the last minute and tacked a bit on the end to justify it.

  260. Liz g

    Ken 500 @ 9.36
    That there’s no been an incident Ken is totally down to Police Scotland…. But that in its self tells us nothing about the risks of one.
    A risk assessment is a major part of organising events and it’s the expertise of bodies like the police that organizers need to be guided by.
    They know what’s involved for things like shutting down the M8 and keeping access to A&E departments open,Manny Sing clearly doesn’t and neither do you or I,so you take yer lead from the people who do…Aye?
    It’s no just as simple as a few hours march,it’s a very lot of people with varying abilities all in the one space,in the middle of a big city with a motorway running through it.
    Comparing it to a football match is Apple’s and Oranges too,the City grew up around the Stadiums and the routes to and from them,it’s not the same thing at all.
    Not to mention that AUOB has lied to the marchers twice now to get their way,and there’s no justification for that,they earned their reputation on the backs of Indy supporters excellent behaviour not their organizational skills and we deserve better.

  261. Robert Peffers

    @yesindyref2 says:6 May, 2019 at 6:08 pm:

    ” … These people like Mackay and Hunter are Cyberspoiltbrats and #Sturgeon should call them out for their abuse and brattinessivity.”

    Why would Nicola do a daft thing like that? People like them are far and away better recruiters than, for example the usual suspects here on Wings who drip about her, the SG and the SNP during every thread and do everything they can to turn others against the SNP?

    The hard facts are that no other political party has ever even stood for Scottish Independence than the SNP and latterly a rather half hearted Green party.

    A few have made noises about some form of Federation but always sneakily on the basis not of two kingdoms in federation but by turning Scotland into just another federated region of England.

  262. winifred mccartney

    I totally concur with liz g and petra.

    The marches have been wonderful, the people you meet and the friendly and helpful police are all part of what makes a very gratifying and encouraging day with great speakers and wonderful atmosphere however we cannot be lied to even for a just cause. It just gives others the fodder they need for complaints etc. and for bad mouthing our cause and heaven knows we get enough of that without giving them any excuses.

  263. Mad Unionist

    I believe that the Nationalist and Republican movement is infested with anti OO Catholic bigoted fanatics who have no understanding of the OO and its history. The SNP has directly engaged with the OO and knows the OO has in its ranks independence supporters. From what some OO members tell me they believe their are Nationalists who just live to ban their organisation.

  264. yesindyref2

    @Robert Peffers

    @yesindyref2 says:6 May, 2019 at 6:08 pm:

    ” … These people like Mackay and Hunter are Cyberspoiltbrats and #Sturgeon should call them out for their abuse and brattinessivity.”

    Why would Nicola do a daft thing like that?

    For goodness sake Robert, do you not recognise satire or sarcasm? It’s pretty blatant and obvious!

  265. CameronB Brodie

    Time for a bit more cultural psychology, to better understand British Unionist Media hacks?

    Epistemic Violence in the Process of Othering:
    Real-World Applications and Moving Forward

    Symbolic Power, Epistemic Violence

    In the mid-20th century, sociologist and intellectual Pierre Bourdieu introduced the concept of symbolic power as it exists in modern societies. For Bourdieu, this was a ‘worldmaking power’ (Swartz, 1997), giving those holding the power the ability to impose their vision of the social world, and its divisions, as legitimate. From this theory came that of symbolic violence. Bourdieu understood this to be synonymous with ideology, as having the ability “to impose the means for comprehending and adapting to the social world by representing economic and political power in disguised, taken-for-granted forms” (Swartz, 1997, 89).

    Expanding on his belief that all actions have a purpose, those with social power use this power to establish and impose norms through misrecognition– the disguising of the economic and political interests driving these practices. Stemming from the concept of symbolic violence is epistemic violence, which focuses on the discourse involved in the practice of othering. Othering, to this effect, is the marginalization of those who are distinctly different from the majority ‘us’, and uses differences between beliefs and customs to define them as the out-group (Rawls & David, 2003).

    Traditionally, societies have used the discourse of otherness to create a common bond within the in-group for example, feelings of patriotism or nationalism. Often in an asymmetrical conflict in which one group has markedly more symbolic power, the powerful will exercise this power through epistemic violence (Maoz & McCauley, 2008). The discursively-produced sense of division that follows deeply and negatively affects the oppressed and often leads to physical violence and conflict….

  266. geeo

    Coco @4.57pm

    Nice try coco.

    Ok, lets use your logic.

    If you support the indy cause, never post on Wings again.

    Feel free to post one last time to say you are never coming back on here.

    No ?

    Didn’t think so Britnat boy.

  267. Breeks

    I want a time machine so I can go back to 2014 and stay there. At least back then I had an inkling about WTF was going on and we all had a sense of direction. We seem to be hellbent on making a complete and utter hash of this, and it’s utterly sickening.

    Please come back Alex Salmond. Your country needs you.

  268. Cubby

    Colin Alexander @8.41pm

    Aw that’s awfy nice. It’s nice to be nice. Good old Britnat Herald making sure we are all nice to each other.

  269. Bob Mack

    @Mad Unionist,

    Talking shirt as usual about something you know nothing about.

  270. Phronesis

    ‘The 24 powers include those over fisheries, environmental protections, food regulation and animal welfare, which UK ministers argue need to be kept at Westminster until a UK-wide regulatory approach is in place.
    Public procurement rules currently held by the EU would also be kept at a UK level under the proposals’

    ‘The Scotland Office title has been scrapped as part of a rebranding by the UK government…“The change ensures people can be confident about which responsibilities the UK Government delivers and are able to identify which issues have been devolved. This will make clear the extensive role of the UK Government in delivering for people in Scotland.’

    ‘Between 2014 and 2020, up to €1 billion in European structural funding is allocated to Scotland under the European Structural and Investment Funds (ESIF) programme. Also included in the Committee’s inquiry is LEADER funding which supports rural development.
    After 2020, the UK Government proposes to fund structural fund priorities through a UK Shared Prosperity Fund, but the detail has yet to be set out’

    How to do things with words. WM does not have the moral or political competence to manage Scotland therefore Scotland must also do things with words and defy WM exploitation of Scotland’s wealth, threats to its institutions, and erosion of its hard won status.

    The UK Govt is delivering for people in Scotland. Really? Delivering enormous economic damage, widening inequality , restricting Scotland’s ability to become energy self sufficient, retaining Trident, extinguishing our European identity and using our money for war mongering regimes to kill and maim innocents abroad. That’s what WM words do to Scotland.

    No surprise that the YES movement is strengthened, resilient with a collective passion and continues to march peacefully and purposively – a credit to democratic principles. The YES movement has also learned how to do things with words – most are thoughtful contributions to Scotland’s progressive steps towards independence.

    ‘Never ever depend on governments or institutions to solve any major problems. All social change comes from the passion of individuals’ Margaret Mead

  271. Sandy

    To all concerned.

    Princess Janet gave birth at 07.00 hrs today to four healthy kittens. Mother and babies doing very well.
    Contacted the media only to be told that there was another birth today and as it was English, and although it was a rather uncommon multiple birth, it was deemed that the Scottish event was less important, hence ignored and not broadcast.

  272. Robert Peffers

    @Hamish100 says: 6 May, 2019 at 6:14 pm:

    ” … The organiser for AUOB arrested?
    Has Police Scotland arrested any football player intentionally assaulting another person yet?”

    The apparent arrest is a violation of not sticking to the conditions of the Glasgow Council licence to hold a procession or march.

    The Current council has no overall control but the SNP are the biggest party.

    The most recent full council election took place on Thursday 4 May 2017. The Scottish National Party became the largest party (39) but did not gain an overall majority; Labour returned fewer councillors (31) and lost overall control, with increased numbers for the Conservatives (8) and the Greens (7).

    So it will always be a struggle with the SNP+greens on 46 and Labour+Torys on 39 and lots of decisions taken by different committees. So sometimes the SNP would not have the control of whatever Committee grants licences for processions. Going by the numbers of Orange walks in Glasgow It think that committee is not under SNP control.

    There is always the chance that it is Police Scotland bringing charges but that seems unlikely. In any case cases are brought by the Procurators Fiscal and they make the final decision if there is a case to answer.

    Which explains partly why footballers are not charged with assault. The assaulted person would need to make a formal complaint. Usually the don’t but just have a fly kick at the guy that assaulted them the next time the teams play each other.

  273. Cubby

    Just as everyone ( well I am honest ) is trying their best to be nice along comes a Mad British Nationalist to spoil everything.

    Oh, I forgot the dictat from the Herald about being nice doesn’t apply to all the raving looney totally bonkers mad British Nationalists that think the Orange Order is like your local book club or golf club. It does of course only apply to independence supporters.

    The Herald on Sunday = lying hypocrites. That’s my nice comment that is fair comment honestly held but in a nice way.

  274. chicmac


    Don’t forget the SSP, albeit how easy it was for the Murdoch monster to take them out. He understood jealousy of Sheridan would trigger a self destruct button there, they couldn’t reach for the foot shotguns quick enough.

  275. manandboy

    The Unionists are hard at work. Here, there, everywhere. In a war of words, Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are attempting to win over hearts and minds to the false idea that there is little support for Independence. Saturdays march in Glasgow by 140,000 proves that support for Indy is stronger than ever. Yes 1 – 0 Unionists.

    May knows full well that the AUOB marches have become politically very influential in a series of clear demonstrations of support for Independence. This makes it very difficult for the Tories to sustain their argument for not granting a second Indy Referendum.

    The War of words continues.

  276. geeo

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    6 May, 2019 at 9:54 pm

    So SNP polling at definitely returning 3 MEPs but also with a real possibility of returning 4 MEPs (2/3 of Scotlands MEPs)!

    That is exactly what my MP Martyn Day told me on my doorstep during easter recess (at 7pm i may add)

    The 4th seat needs a LOT to go our way, and he heavily caveated the 4th seat chances by saying the polling sub samples were small as there were no full Scottish only polls.

    3 SNP seats look very good though.

    Coco trying desperately to avoid that success, he really hates the SNP success in elections.

    Lets piss off Coco, lets get 4 seats.

    Also in our favour, potentially, is Change uk and the ‘brexit’ party are standing, which should help split the lab/tory vote.

  277. Ghillie

    So, it looks like this Neil Mackay is a covert unionist.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, eh no, we noticed the pattern.

    What is clearly blaring out on all media outlets is the unionist panic.

  278. Ghillie

    The concern trolling has fairly increased.

    That’s an interesting barometer too.

  279. chicmac


    I’m concerned at the level of quality in the concern trolling.

  280. CameronB Brodie

    Effective political discourse is part art and part learned skill. Of course, it helps when you’ve got a handler who knows how to protect cultural INTEGRITY. 😉

    Strategies of legitimization in political discourse: From words to actions


    From an interdisciplinary framework anchored theoretically in Critical Discourse Analysis and using analytical tools from Systemic Functional Linguistics, this article accounts for a crucial use of language in society: the process of legitimization. This article explains specific linguistic ways in which language represents an instrument of control (Hodge and Kress, 1993: 6) and manifests symbolic power (Bourdieu, 2001) in discourse and society.

    Taking into account previous studies on legitimization (i.e. Martín Rojo and Van Dijk, 1997; Van Dijk, 2005; Van Leeuwen, 1996, 2007, 2008; Van Leeuwen and Wodak, 1999), this particular work develops and proposes some key strategies of legitimization employed by social actors to justify courses of action. The strategies of legitimization can be used individually or in combination with others, and justify social practices through: (1) emotions (particularly fear), (2) a hypothetical future, (3) rationality, (4) voices of expertise and (5) altruism. This article explains how these strategies are linguistically constructed and shaped.

    This study explains the use of these discursive structures and strategies through examples of speeches given by leaders with differing ideologies, specifically George W. Bush and Barack Obama, in two different armed conflicts, Iraq (2007) and Afghanistan (2009), to underline their justifications of military presence in the notorious ‘War on Terror’.

    Keywords Critical Discourse Analysis, discursive strategies, legitimization, political discourse, US presidents

  281. Hamish100

    Re the March.

    I suppose my last comment for this evening is at any time Police Scotland could have said it is not going ahead. They didn’t.

    Does this mean they are also complicit?

  282. Mad Unionist

    Forty years since Mrs Thatcher was first elected and the SNP voting for no confidence in Labour. The SNP lost nine of their eleven seats. The SNP will pretend they had no influence in the victory for the Thatcher regime and will blame the Tories for anything that happened forty years on and still do although they are in power.

  283. CameronB Brodie

    This might be helpful, given we voted against the full-English Brexit, which will defiantly affects Scotland’s international and trade relations. Not really in accordance with the moral law underpinning the British/UK constitution, frankly.



    This paper aims to introduce a framework for interdisciplinary analysis in history, political science and linguistics. When governments pursue a controversial foreign policy and are fully aware of the potential negative domestic and international reception, one of the tools to create consent with the policies is the use of the discursive legitimizing mechanisms. Inspired by Frankfurt school and critical linguistics the paper presents specific mechanisms that could be used for legitimizing problematic foreign policy strategies.

    Keywords: United States, Foreign Policy, Legitimization, Critical Discourse Analysis

  284. Robert Peffers

    @William Purves says: 6 May, 2019 at 6:21 pm:+

    ” … Whatever became of Maggie Thatcher’s answer in parliament, that if ever the SNP gained a majority of Scottish MPs in Westminster, Scotland could its independence.”

    Nothing happened to it. It was utter piffle then and it is utter piffle now. The legal situation is the same now as it has been since 1 May 1707.

    Under Scots law the the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and not either the Crown of either England or the crown or parliament of Scotland. Under English Law the Queen of England is legally sovereign but has legally delegated her English sovereignty to the parliament of England that ended on 30 April 1707.

    Westminster is not the parliament of England and English Law does not legally apply to other than England under The United Kingdom Treaty of Union. However Westminster on 30 April 1707 illegally just carried on as if it were the Kingdom of England Parliament that only under English Law is sovereign.

    So the situation now is exactly as it was on 1 May 1707. The legally sovereign people of Scotland need to give the Parliament of Scotland a mandate to end the Treaty of Union.

    They can fight it through the courts till they are blue in the face that Westminster has broken the Treaty of Union many time in many ways but the fact is that the people of Scotland allowed it to happen and did not use their sovereignty to end the Union.

    Which is why Nicola Sturgeon has her hands tied until the people delegate their sovereignty to her to specifically end the Union.

  285. geeo

    Cubby says:

    6 May, 2019 at 8:39 pm

    It is noticeable that on a day when the main item of discussion has been abusive comments the recent permanently abusive mad Britnat is nowhere to be seen.

    Probably gone back to the Scotsman btl where he belongs.

    Maybe he was reported for vile and abusive sectarian posts ???


  286. Effijy

    Mad Unionist says:
    6 May, 2019 at 10:21 pm
    I believe that the Nationalist and Republican movement is infested with anti OO Catholic bigoted fanatics who have no understanding of the OO and its history. The SNP has directly engaged with the OO and knows the OO has in its ranks independence supporters. From what some OO members tell me they believe their are Nationalists who just live to ban their organisation.

    I have an understanding of the OO as a bigoted group who are more concerned with a battle in 1690 than the future of their children or their multi cultural country.

    They have links with terrorist organisations, they openly declare their hate of Catholics, whenever they march through the city incidents of violence escalate dramatically, and clergymen are abused if they dare venture on to the street.

    Don’t need them, don’t like them, don’t want them!

  287. geeo

    Oh look…its still here !! (Sectarian bigot 11.27pm)

    Content of post very different from the norm i see.

    The old ‘SNP caused thatcher’ fantasy story.

    34 labour MP’s were ACTUALLY to blame.

    My Source ?


  288. Craig Murray

    I am horrified by the attacks on Mannie Singh on this site.

    The application to hold the march was lodged seven months ago with Glasgow City Council. Just a week before the march, Glasgow City Council demanded it be moved from 1.30pm to 11am. With people coming and buses booked from all over Scotland, it was not possible to make that change. The organisers viewed it as a deliberate effort to mess up the march, their being a long history of hostility from GCC officers toward Indy events (remember pretty well all the senior officers of the Council are surviving long term Labour party appointees).

    Petra’s accusations of lying are disgraceful and untrue. AuoB gave a minute by minute account of all this in detail on Facebook, They co-operated with Police Scotland (who were excellent) in making sure everything passed off entirely peacefully.

    I assume the regiment of anti-AUOB posters here also condemn Extinction Rebellion for their illegal protests, and would have condemned the long term picket of the South African Embassy against apartheid, also illegal?

    Those who are more interested in respecting the diktat of the state than in forwarding the cause of Independence will never achieve it.

  289. Effijy

    Mad Unionist says:
    6 May, 2019 at 11:27 pm
    Forty years since Mrs Thatcher was first elected and the SNP voting for no confidence in Labour. The SNP lost nine of their eleven seats. The SNP will pretend they had no influence in the victory for the Thatcher regime and will blame the Tories for anything that happened forty years on and still do although they are in power.

    No Mad Unionist. The fact is Labour MPs themselves had no confidence in their own party’s pathetic attempt at Government.
    Labour themselves turned against Labour and let the Tories in.

    I’m certain that the Rev has confirmed this action previously but perhaps you were washing your sash that day?

  290. defo

    “The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you.”
    Boom boom!

    You’d expect this sort of thing by now surely peeps, keep the yaks on the prize.

  291. Famous15

    I told you all yesterday that Mad Unionist is a Tory cult.

    Blessed are they who walk in the path of righteousness. AUOB!

  292. Cubby

    I have said, as have many others, that as soon as it is becoming clear that >50% for Yes has been reached the Britnats will start a campaign to move the goalposts higher – as per 1979. Who better to kick it of than a self proclaimed independence supporter in the Herald – take a bow McKay you have outed yourself Mr Britnat. Apologises if I am not meeting your standards of niceness.

    The good news from this – the Britnats know we are above 50%. The bad news – referendums are still easy to pockle. Keep moving the goalposts higher – 60% then 65% then 70%. Britnats do not care a dam about democracy – if they did they would not have looted across the world, retain a monarch, retain a House Of Lords etc. They only care about winning and lining their own pockets.

  293. manandboy

    Future historians will ask how and why the ‘propaganda war’ waged by Westminster against the Scottish people, started. The answers will vary, but the astute will tell of the discovery of oil and gas in large quantities in the North Sea off the coast of Aberdeen and then elsewhere.

    It was then, in the early 1970’s, that the Westminster Establishment and Government could not resist the temptation to take Scotland’s oil & gas wealth for themselves. And so began the long-running propaganda war against the Scots in the post World War 2 era, with the burying of the McCrone Report in secret vaults. It also marked a new stage in the centuries old Colonial exploitation by England of it’s so-called equal partner in the Union.

    Now, after 50 years, Oil production in Scotland’s territorial waters is currently running at 1.07 million barrels a day, 100% of the revenues from which, continue to be taken by the Treasury in London. Production is anticipated to continue for another 50 years at least, not only in the North Sea but also in the Scottish waters in the North-East Atlantic, where huge new oil discoveries have been made in recent times. Attempts to suppress news of these oilfield have been only partially successful.

    England’s lust for Scotland’s oil wealth is now deeply rooted in the Establishment’s psyche, and is unlikely to abate anytime soon. Likewise the Propaganda War, now nearly 50 years old, having escalated significantly since 2012 and the campaign for Scottish Independence, is not going to lessen any time soon. Quite the opposite.

    It is against this background that the systematic efforts by Unionist Councils in the recent past, to minimise the impact of the AUOB marches, must be understood. The attempted change of times by the parades Committee of Glasgow Council is just the latest. The propaganda war will not be won by bowing and scraping like cowed serfs in obedience before landed gentry.

    It is time for Scotland to divorce England. It is time to turn off the 50 year theft of Scotland’s oil wealth. And the rest.

    Vote SNP.

  294. chicmac

    @Jack Collatin

    For decades I have maintained that Scotland’s ‘columnists’ should be presaged with the word ‘fifth’.

  295. Mad Unionist

    Effijy. Why do you assume I have a sash and why would I? The SNP voted to end the Labour government knowing and hoping the Tories would gain power. The SNP have responsibility for the Tory attacks on the miners.

  296. Robert Peffers

    @mr thms says: 6 May, 2019 at 6:24 pm:

    ” … “Further, Article 52(1) TEU specifies that the Treaty applies to “the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. There is a respectable legal argument to be made that – given that Article 1 of the 1707 Articles of Union provides “that the two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof, and for ever after, be united into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain” – the revocation of the British Union would mean not only independence for Scotland but also the dissolution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”

    Indeed so, Mr thms, and I’ve been telling that to Wings for a very long time but I added a little further information. Barrosso was not a member of the EU, he was the President of the EC and the EC are the paid for Civil Servants of the EU. As such Barrosso had no decision making powers.

    That means exactly what you posted. If the kingdoms of Scotland and England disunite the EU has a problem in that both The Status Quo Ante of the United Kingdom disuniting means both kingdoms revert to their status as before the union and that leaves it open to the EU to decide to keep both kingdoms as individual member states or lose both as member states.

    However, since Barroso’s time in office the United Kingdom Parliament has attempted to exit the EU dragging Scotland out even although the Scots voted to remain. The EU has always been adept at compromise and indeed its whole way of working is democratic compromise. Thus if the EU wishes to retain the Kingdom of Scotland as an EU member state it only needs decide that the Kingdom of England can leave while the Kingdom of Scotland retains the legacy membership of the former United Kingdom.

    On paper that would indicate that everyone gets what they wanted. However the truth is hat Westminster’s propaganda planted the seed that instead of the reality of the United Kingdom ending it was really Scotland leaving a fictitious rUnited Kingdom. However that was not what they actually wanted but was them planting the idea that Scotland would also be out of Europe so that Westminster could continue to obtain the benefits of the Scottish resources they had been taking for centuries.

  297. CameronB Brodie

    Time for a little bit of international legal theory to highlight the Prime-minister’s abuse of the Britain/UK constitution and the Treaties of Union? Remember, Westminster is legislating to strip the EU citizenship from those living in Scotland, despite us voting to retain our EU membership. Not only is she assaulting EU legal doctrine (your citizenship is an instrument of EU law and is protected by EU law), she is assaulting the idea of Scotland as a nation.

    Remember, the moral law principle underpinning constitutional and legal rationality in Britain/UK, is EQUALITY between Scotland and England. However, the Prime-minister appears to consider the constitution to be ‘optional documentation’. The full-English Brexit clearly highlights how the British constitution is unable to defend Scotland from right-wing authoritarianism and English cultural nationalism dictated from Westminster.

    International Legal Personality

    International law is based on rules made by states for states. States are sovereign and equal in their relations and can thus voluntarily create or accept to abide by legally binding rules, usually in the form of a treaty or convention. By signing and ratifying treaties, states willingly enter into legal, contractual relationships with other state parties to a particular treaty, which observance is normally controlled by the reciprocal effects of non-compliance. The capacity of states to enter into such relationships with other states and to create legally binding rules for themselves, is a result of states’ international legal personality, a prerogative attributed to all sovereign states….

    N.B. Scotland was a sovereign nation state when it entered political union with England. Just because the Treaties of Union are old, does not mean they do not carry legal force.

  298. manandboy

    A timely and very helpful intervention, Craig. Well done, and thank you.

  299. Ken500

    The SNP did not call out cybernats or nuts.

    If you read what was actually said. If was nothing of the sort. McKay just made that up,

    One said he gets weird messages from Yessers as well as others. Calling him a few choice terms. This is probably true. The other remarks were concerns for people be nice to one another. Not likeky to happen soon. With all the frustrations going on. People being bad used by Westminster unionist politicians. Brexit. Some people calling each other names because of Brexit, Blame the Tories for it. They started it. Foolhardy. To stop UKIP getting a seat. Like that would have made much difference. The Tories are tanking now.

    In Scotland the SNP is winning all the time. Despite some cybernats/nuts using some strong language. Maybe everyone is voting SNP because they like people calling out some choice language. It could be an asset rather than a deteriorate. There should be more of it. To get some more voters on line.

    It is the 25% who never normally vote who will get Independence over the line. Any cybernattery will just go right over their heads. They will not even notice being immuned to it.

    This is such a storm in a tea cup. The SNP members did not say most of what was reported in the headline. It is just another Herald wind up from some Herald person No one agrees with considering the sales. A few thousand?

    Wings has more viewers, comments and readership than the Herald. Thousands more. After this extended debacle the Herald will hsve even less. They just do not get it. Publish lies and be despised leads to the demise of the Herald. The Press is constantly interfering with it’s nose to spite it’s type face. Vacant empty coupon. Empty visage looking for another accusation. Sad but true. The sad but untrue Herald. A mess of a paper. Not worth the paper it is written on.

  300. jfngw

    I await the SNP anti-block list. This will be the list of those that are approved to comment and be followed. Obviously I won’t be on it, mostly because I don’t have a twitter account but I’m sure Wings and any BTL commentator will be verbotten.

    If they think they can control the internet I suspect they are going to be disappointed, do they think the real abuser will be the least bit interested in their protestations.

    If I was on twitter I could quite easily work out who to filter out, and some SNP elected reps would certainly make my list. I don’t need a political party telling me who to listen to, the suggestion is quite concerning in fact.

    Anyway enough on this until it rears it’s media head again in a few months. It’s strange how politician’s seem to be more concerned with their hurt feelings than how this country sells arms to countries to kill and maim civilians.

  301. carjamtic

    Virtual and Other Realities

    Becoming – A Cybernat

    I vaguely, remember hearing the message, the recording, ‘this is our most desperate hour’….’your are our only hope’

    I thought fuck it,I can’t be arsed…..

    Then I saw the constant lies, the half truths, the never ending propaganda, I saw the smiling faces of the undertakers, of the empires drone army.

    I saw a starving/diminished population (although, as yet unbroken) and thought, why bother, I don’t need this hassle.

    Then I started reading again, it had been a while, I slowly began to understand the past, to unravel the present and to imagine a different future.I developed my super powers (easy going attitude complete with an impenetrable rhino skin, which took some time to thicken).

    Ready for the challenge, I hesitantly went online and flexed my muscles ‘you fucking want some of this’ ? I said to no-one……

    But I learned, I listened, I understood that to be successful it is okay, to not follow the rules, but to follow your imagination…….to be yourself, to remember who you once were and to boldly go…..stop, too much, cut that last bit.

    Another,final, correspondence was delivered, by a feathered beast ‘your in the wrong reality pal, now zip it and fuck off’ , but who was telling me this ?.

    The official document confirmed my worst fears I was, ‘cough’ (oldie but a goody) Surplus to Requirements… we no longer need any nameless Cybernats.

    We only need intelligent, reasonable people, as we are all friends now.

    Unfortunately we have no other suitable positions at any of our academic institutions or at the Nationalist Trust for Scotland, all these positions have already been filled by miserable barstewards, the shameless and the blameless.

    Yours Faithfully

    The Weeping Angels

    Then I woke up and remembered the Inspiration that was Cearc and re-attached my badge…..

  302. Heart of Galloway

    Thanks to Ronnie for posting the links to the GCC minutes on the AUOB march.
    A very interesting read (honest) about the ins and outs of staging a mass march and rally.
    Do I think Manny Singh should be more up front with the movement? Absolutely.
    The marches are the beating heart of the independence movement and we can’t risk a cardiac arrest through bone-headed confrontation with the licensing authorities.
    However, a couple of things stand out for me in the minutes.
    Firstly, it appears a major factor in GCC’s wish to bring the start time forward from 1.30pm to 11am was AUOB’s revision (upwards) of the 20,000 participants estimate.
    The record states: “Such an approach would recognise the organiser’s rights of freedom of assembly but balance that against the disruption to the life of the members of the community within the City Centreand the business community.”
    For the life of me I cannot see how an earlier jump-off time would have alleviated city centre disruption. Quite the opposite in fact.
    Our wee crowd from Galloway was quite near the front and even then we did not cross the bottom of Buchanan Street until around 2.30pm. The tail of the march was around 90 minutes behind us.
    Under the 11am time change, the marchers would have been in the city centre from around 12pm until 1.30pm.
    How would this have eased “disruption to the community and the business community?” That is not explained.
    Also, instructions to assemble at Kelvingrove Park at 10am would have deterred many travelling a distance while those who did would have got caught up in peak-time traffic.
    Were the civic authorities uneasy about coping with potentially huge numbers? If so, they should not be.
    The fact that 100,000 citizens choose to march and laugh and sing and wave for something in which they passionately believe should be celebrated, not feared.
    EVERYBODY on every indy march I have been on is aware that good behaviour, dare I say discipline, adds to the enjoyment of the day because all those grannies, the less abled, the weans and the dugs know they are safe because there’s never any trouble.
    For our movement to achieve that really is something of which to be proud.
    In any case, even the Brahan Seer could not predict how many people would turn up on Saturday.
    How can you breach a licence by not having a PhD in crystal ball gazing?
    What if 200,000 had come – is that a failure of permission conditions? Such a figure, by the way, is by no means an impossibility when the IndyRef 2 campaign reaches its climax.
    The independence movement should stop picking hairs out of its nose and take the enormous positives from Saturday’s wonderful occasion.
    All that said, that some fine tuning, if not a major service, of the AUOB’s modus operandi is needed is beyond dispute.
    Such is the gathering scale and tempo of gthe independence movement AUOB’s organisers ought to welcome some extra support and expertise, to ensure their vehicle remains roadworthy.
    The MoT must include an important tick box – be straight with the people.

  303. Chris Kilby

    This sort of pish is why I stopped reading the Sunday Herald in the first place. And presumably why it went out of business.

  304. Mad Unionist

    CameronB Brodie @ 12:05am. The facts you present are flawed as it was the UK that joined the EEC now the EU. The UK voted to remain in the EEC during 1975. The UK voted to leave the EU 2016. I appreciate the europhile Scots use the term being dragged out for propaganda purposes but you know you are lying.

  305. yesindyref2

    @Heart of Galloway
    I’ve a sneaky feeling based on the Edinburgh stramash that it works the other way around. What’s the desired start time, route and rally area? Will the police facilitate a mass arrival, progression and safe dispersal of 100,000 people, whatever permissions are or are not granted? Yes, of course they will. That’s what police do. At no time before, during or after the march is there even the remotest chance of danger – that’s what police are for.

    The rest is whiling time away, sucking at grass straws, faced with a known forthcoming unneccessary obstruction, and determination to reduce and harrass a march planned and announced and applied for, 7 months ago.

    Fuck ’em – Je suis Manny.

  306. Dan

    I previously posted the dates for next AUOB march dates according to their flyer:

    Galashiels – 1st June

    Oban – 15th June

    Ayr – 6th July

    Cambeltown – 27th July

    Aberdeen – 17th August

    Perth – 7th September

    Edinburgh – 5th October

    On the reverse of that same flier there are also Volunteer Meeting dates listed in each of the march location towns in advance of the proposed marches.
    According to the dates the Volunteer Meetings for the Galashiels, Oban, and Ayr marches have already taken place.

    Presumably these meetings would be an ideal time for input to be added by relevant parties, both organisers and reps from Local Councils alike, to identify and iron out arising matters.

    Whether Mannie’s arrest will now have an impact on these future events happening remains to be seen.

    If Indy-minded folk need a reminder of why it is vitally important to get the vote out at ALL times, even at local elections / bi-elections in the 32 Local Authorities areas, then this is a fine example. The control of many Councils is on a knife edge with just one or two Councillors swinging the control one way or another.
    Some folk may think Local Authority Elections don’t matter much in the scheme of Indy things. Obviously these same folk haven’t tried to run Indy stalls in unionist controlled Council areas…

  307. mike cassidy

    And I’m sure you all want to know what Daily Mail readers want the royal baby to be called.

    Take a deep breath first!

    And to quote one contributor to the thread

    ..please stop assuming that the child is a boy. We won’t know what the gender is until they self-identify.

  308. Colin Alexander

    Even if the SNP win all Euro seats, so what? All I would say is: at least it’s not Labour or the Tories.

    Until I decided to vote Green, I was minded to not even vote at all, such is my sheer lack of caring who gets elected as Euro MEPs in Scotland, as it will change nothing about the situation regarding Scotland’s place in (or dragged out) the EU:

    England’s Tory and Labour MP’s will decide: Scotland will obey.

  309. Colin Alexander

    6th July Ayr march will be the same day as the Orange Walk in Glasgow.

    I could see objections there cos of the potential conflict at transport hubs.

  310. mr thms

    Robert Peffers @ 12:05 am

    Thank you for your reply. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel

    When David Cameron said English votes for English laws on the day of the result of the Scottish referendum, I went from thinking how did Scotland vote No, to thinking Scotland had voted Yes in an instant.

    If Aiden Quinn QC is correct the UK would have had to leave the EU in the first instance if Scotland voted Yes, before an independent Scotland could join.

    Voting No in the Scottish referendum paved the way for the Scotland Act 2016.

    That devolved powers over income tax and benefits a future independent country would have needed to have in place, and (very conveniently) putting the Sewel Convention into statute.

    A move which anticipated the outcome of the EU referendum and the invoking of Article 50.

    The UK government is busily working its way through all five parts. (Part 5 is reserved for Scotland)

    In my roadmap to independence, the UK takes part in the elections for the Parliament of the European Union, and the Withdrawal Agreement succeeds in winning the approval of Parliament.

    Because an orderly Brexit and an orderly succession both need a ‘transitional arrangement’.

    It would make sense should Scotland vote for independence during the ‘transitional arrangements. and a member of the EU (while under transitional arrangements)

    This is why Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement and the all important ‘transitional arrangement’ is so important for Scotland.

    A ‘blind’ Brexit

  311. Craig Murray


    Your idea that it was just Neil McKay making it up is sadly disproved by the fact that Angus Robertson tweeted out the article with approval.

  312. Robert J. Sutherland

    Just catching up again, and you would think there was an election likely about to happen, what with the appearance of a slew of anonymous arrivistes attacking Alyn Smith et al for something they – or possibly somebody they know – said or did. With a chorus of the familiar usual suspects. All feverishly intent on running with Mackay’s line and busily sowing division wherever it can be planted. Mostly among the febrile and the jealous.

    Whatever his motives, Mackay himself is clearly a busted flush for independence. Anyone who can punt a 60% referendum finish line in the heavily-skewed media environment that we are in – and of which he of all people should surely be aware – is an obvious faker, pure and simple. Learnt nothing since 1979. And thus best quietly ignored.

    As for the march, just sorry I wasn’t there for the uplift. Whatever the organisational ins-and-outs, the marches have proved time after time to be well-regulated and eminently safe & happy events. That should speak volumes to the powers-to-be. We should always be reasonable, but we don’t need permission to exercise our precious rights. Yes, the marches will inevitably disrupt some other peoples’ lives, but that’s what being an engaged citizen is about. Making others aware of the existence of a substantial body of public opinion on an important issue that is otherwise routinely suppressed.

    And there are clearly none so put about as those who desperately wish to return us all to passive acquiescence in their miserable dead-end world.

  313. yesindyref2

    OK, I think I’ve got it, but there are two alternative endings. The first is that Neil Mackay is actually tinker tailor soldier AND rodent exterminator.

    The second is that he’s just whack-a-mole.


  314. Liz g

    Craig Murry @ 11.43
    Then I have to ask Craig,would you also be horrified if I objected to the Orange Order deciding that they would march at a time and place of their choosing too?
    And Petra is correct,they did lie,they said the police relented at the last minute,and gave permission when clearly they didn’t. They lied last year too and announced it the next day.
    Manandboy @ 11.58
    The attitude of any given Council is not the point, Manandboy,and if the organiser really believed in and has experienced obstructive behaviour,then he should have taken this into account,don’t ye think?

    The point is if he cannot after all this time get the arrangements in place before making the announcements,then he doesn’t really have the organisational skills he should have.
    And should step aside for someone who dose!

    He got a free pass from Historic Scotland last year as they could have quite easily prosecuted. Yet here we are again being mislead into marching because he messed up.
    And to cap it all off he’s announcing that he will not comply with any future arrangements he doesn’t like.
    Thus, risking any future marches for all of us.

    While it’s all very fine to take the view that we as a movement are not going to comply with establishment rules,but that’s no the ethos of understanding of the people who take part..or indeed included in the blurb (a family day out) that promotes these marches.
    It is also a decision that each Marcher should take fully informed

    As I said none of this was necessary, the question then becomes is it a flying by the seat of his arse incompetence or looking to create an issue and not about oil at all.

    I’m not questioning the man’s commitment to independence,just his methods,he has no right to use people to make a point the way he wants it made don’t ye think?

  315. CameronB Brodie

    Mad Unionist
    Indeed, the British state is the signatory to the E.E.C. (now E.U). However, the British state is constructed around the constitutional legal principle of legal equality between the Scottish and English states. A moral law principle that the full-English Brexit takes a big, smelly, dump on. Surely as a ‘center-left Glaswegian’, you’re not hear to defend authoritarian English nationalism?

  316. yesindyref2

    @Liz g
    I think It’s basically what I said at 12.34. If bureacracy is determined to get you, they leave things for weeks, months then insist you fill in a form and give you a week. You do that and they sit for weeks, then send you another one, you’ve got 3 days. They can bully people into submission, using their power and the fact you have a life to lead whereas they’re paid to fill in forms – or send blank ones.

    Or you ignore the lot and do the thing anyway. In this case it’s not us that’s taking a risk, it’s Manny Singh who’s prepared to risk a 3 month jail sentence rather than let the unionists destroy the 100,000 people Indy March. And we’re not talking about the 2 SNP and 1 Green processions councillors.

  317. Mad Unionist

    CameronB Brodie. 1:19am. The law is the law and I am sure people have different moral perspectives. Scotland and England are not States. My status of left or right is irrelevant although when infrequently measured for a suit I prefer my balls to the left as I am a deranged corry fister.

  318. Liz g

    Yesindyref2 @ 1.24
    I can see where you’re coming from up to a point.
    But (and I think that you and I discussed it at the time) that definitely wasn’t the case in Edinburgh,one phone call to Historic Scotland would have put the availability of Holyrood Park beyond doubt before any announcements were made about the destination of the march,and that’s bad planning.
    I’m not talking about the politics of the Councils here,I’m sayin that there are reasons, good reasons,why the processes for events like this are in place. And I’m talking from an event organizer point of view,with a wee bit of knowledge of it because my daughter is one.
    Part of her studies to qualify was risk assessment and how quickly and badly things can go wrong.Also the theory behind why the rules are there in the first place and they are not a thing to do with the politics of one group or another.
    Infact most of the time it’s insurance companies that insist on the parameters for any given event.
    If you and she are at the next March I’ll get her to point out what she sees going on,believe me it’s an eye opener.
    Now AUOB, like the rest of us are amateurs at this,but I’d argue that,that’s all the more reason to listen and cooperate with the officials and not to proclaim non compliance!
    Anyhooo….. how have you been keeping?

  319. Mad Unionist

    Liz g @ 1:49am.,It is good that the Nationalists get day release from Carstairs and various related institutions to wave their flags. It keeps us sensibles aware of mental health issues.

  320. CameronB Brodie

    Mad Unionist
    OK, I’m probably wasting my time attempting to highlight the importance of natural law, to a “deranged corry fister”. Some will be informed though and gain insight into jurisprudence. Hopefully this will help them see the importance of keeping check of legal positivism and respecting universal principles of natural law. This is not a topic that members of the Scottish Law Society have the luxury of being ambivalent about, IMHO. Not if they are rational liberals, anyway.



    American legal realism was committed to examining legal reasoning in terms of the actual experiences of judges. Because the realist project sought to use social science tools to examine human nature, the contemporary rise of cognitive neuroscience provides an occasion for reexamining legal realism’s foundational critique of the law.

    Realism’s attempt to examine “the actual facts of judicial behavior” and to pursue a “scientific description and prediction of judicial behavior” appears to be a suitable vehicle for considering the relevance of cognitive neuroscience for legal theory. Cognitive neuroscience has provided convincing evidence for rejecting the traditional bifurcation between “reason” and “emotion.” Moreover, cognitive neuroscience has revealed key heuristic biases in human reasoning.

    As such, the dominant form of legal reasoning might rely on a flawed conception of rationality. Therefore this flawed understanding may have implications for the legitimacy of judicial decisions. Rule-based reasoning has informed the image of rational adjudication that undergirds our conception of the rule of law, but rulebased reasoning does not appear to be a complete description of how judges decide cases. Furthermore, the received view of legal rationality does not appear capable of accounting for alternative theories of adjudication.

  321. CameronB Brodie

    Mad Unionist
    You probably won’t have clicked that link on “international legal personality”, so here’s the last couple of paragraphs. I’m sure as a “center-left Glaswegian”, you’ll agree the full-English Brexit violates the human rights of Scotland’s sovereign nationals.

    International Legal Personality

    ….This stems from state sovereignty and the gradually diminishing principle of non-interference in a state’s internal affairs. Few decades ago, how a government would treat its own citizens, was an entirely “domestic affair” or an “internal matter” which was by no means of any concern to other sovereign states, left alone the rest of the international community. For decades states’ sovereignty veil seemed to be impenetrable until international and regional human rights law acquired global acceptance with unprecedented speed.

    The emergence of international human rights law however altered the sanctity of state sovereignty and imposed certain international obligations upon states to respect, protect and fulfil the human rights of all individuals within their territory. International human rights law moreover established “soft” (complaint procedure under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights) enforcement mechanisms and regional human rights law went a step further, establishing a hard enforcement mechanism of a human rights court with the capacity to give legally binding judgements on whether or not a state has violated the European Human Rights Convention.

  322. Robert J. Sutherland

    Mad Unionist @ 02:02,

    Tell me, what is it like to be a lonely bitter historical dodo? Being the last gasp of a passing era? Dead-end Man. A living non-sequitur. Must give you quite a hollow feeling in the pit of your stomach every time you ponder on becoming an outmoded relic in a new age and a new self-confident country.

    Yet so desperately needing to post on here for a quantum of much-craved attention?

    Poor sorry, sad old thing.

  323. twathater

    Liz g & yesindyref2 I agree with both of you to an extent , I previously made planning applications for a car boot sale market in Glasgow with ALL entry proceeds going to the Yorkhill Sick Childrens Hospital , for over 2 years I had constant meetings with planning officials and each time they raised a condition we complied with that condition ,

    Every time a condition was met they then moved the goalposts and insisted on other more demanding conditions , it became apparent that they were against the idea and were being deliberately obstructive ,through frustration and determination I applied anyway and was successful I also attended a licensing committee and was granted a license subject to restrictions being applied , unfortunately in the following months I suffered a heart attack and on the orders of she who must be obeyed I called it off .

    The point I am trying to make is that the council can be VERY demanding and obstructive when they want and if you have a deadline to meet it then becomes stressful that you have set a date and people and your reputation are depending on you

    The fact that the council left it very late to attempt to impose further restrictions allied with the fact that Manny left it late in responding means that both parties are as guilty as each other and lessons have to be learned

    BTW I was there with my wife and daughter and just like the other marches that I attended it was a joyous inclusive affair and the police and marchers should be proud

  324. Liz g

    twathater @ 3.27
    You make some good points,and I don’t doubt for a minute that Councils can and would be obstructive.
    But if you were to plan on doing it again !
    Wouldn’t you anticipate what they would be like?
    Wouldn’t you learn the rules of what they can and cannot do?
    And most importantly accept that when the numbers you are projecting change markedly, the planning to accommodate them could change too,especially if they were looking for an excuse!
    This was not their first march and as I understand it the request for a time change came from the Police and Fire Brigade.
    Anyhoo . It was a great day wasn’t it,and I hope your staying well and listening to your wife 🙂

  325. twathater

    Yes Liz g you should certainly be forwarned and forearmed, but the reluctance of the AUOB officials to be openly transparent leaves many people suspicious and wary and when that trust is abused we know that it is difficult if not immposible to recover it ( wastemonster anyone )

    My BIGGEST concern is that this wonderful inclusive vehicle could be scuppered by a narcissistic need to challenge the establishment , but there again we should not have our right of lawful assembly curtailed through the disengenious disruption and obfuscation of opponents to independence

  326. winifred mccartney

    Surely the difference between Extinction Rebellion protesters and other illegal protesters is they know they are illegal and make a free choice to join. Indy marchers were not given this choice. I for one believed the timing issue had been sorted, it it had not we should have been told not lied to.

  327. Ken500

    The Glasgow City authorities are a disgrace. They are supposed to be servants of the people. When many are not. The Police are supposed to be servants of the people and impartial but are not. ‘Arresting’ too many people on charges that cannot come to court and locking people in cells overnight on malicious complaint. Often not disclosed at first. There are people with additional needs and on the spectrum that should not be in prison. Gentle souls. 50% They should have had support in the community. It is an absolute scandal. It is costing a fortune and is a total waste of public monry.

    There should be proper ‘total abstinence’ drink/drug facilities. Not prison, the unionist councils are not funding proper facilities but are wasting £Million/Billions on grotesque monstrosities of no value, tgat no one wants. Instead of funding essential services. The Police need diversity training. They also make lying reports, That have to be disproved. Costing the public and private purse. A total waste of monies.

    Once Police gave a warning for unresolved mild misdemeanour orva few sweaty words. Now they lock people up who should not be there. Often exaggerate to keep,people there.

    It was an excellent March. In every way and was in no way disruptive. 50% of the people have a right to their say. Just like everyone else. There were alternative routes to get around the City because of the parallel grid system. Cut through. New York is based upon it. The is why they can make so many US based films in Scotland. Along with the magnificent, unique scenery and landscape.

    If anything happens to Mandrup Singh there will be outrage. Even more annoyed folk. Giving it lardy. One Law for them and one Law for everyone else. Disruptive,violent football matches and other sectarian Marches every week. The secret Masonics.The Police are supposed to be impartial. Just another attack on people’s right to protest and free speech. A right that should be upheld in Law. It is a question of civil rights being upheld. Seriously being eroded in the UK. The Westminster unionists destroying the world.

  328. Ken500

    The Rticle and what was in it did not match the comments. Neil McKay/Herald headlines did make it up. It did not correspond in any way to what was said in the statements, The original statements quote made absolutely no reference to any ‘cybernats or nuts’ etc. They made comments and remarks questioning some comments, remarks made by both sides Yes/No.

    Ie that sometimes one of them (Defence) gets various questionable comments which they consider were inappropriat. Claiming they were M15 agents etc. That is quite possible and us happening, .

    The other comments were basically for peopke to be nice to one another. Not likely to be hapoening when people’s lives are under such stress because of the Westminster unionists lies and actions. No one is exempt from it. When people get threatened they can verbally lash out, it goes with the territory. It can be understandable but the worse can be blocked. Press the button. Hopefully not to nuclear dstruction. The state of the Westminster Gov actions is deplorable. They are a world laughing stock. Just waiting to be voted out. So out of touch it is inconceivable. No wonder people are outraged.

    Nice to meet and greet Mr C. Murray. Say Hello. Even though people do not always agree (about the SNP) people can still be civil, open and friendly. Especially face to face and sleekit. The joys of the anonymous internet. Slagging off people. Being reprimanded. People calling Wolf too many times, He says, she says becomes a bind. Herald Groundhog Day. Boring and repetitive. No one is interested. Daily sales, advertising revenues falling. Pop up ads, so, so annoying. Inaccessible.

    Neil McKay did make it up and take it out of context. If the original comments are read and understood. Go back to the beginning. Even if Angus Robertson (unelected) did tweet it.

    Neil McKay has made a notorious name for himself. Even less people will buy the Herald for the nonsense comments. Few do now. The Newsquest website is a mess. They want subscription for the National? The website does not function properly. People will have to phone, How many will be bothered or forget?

    The Press comments leading to their own demise. Some people never learn. Lie, after lie, after lie. The Westminster unionist controlled Press. Trolling the public. No wonder no one wants to buy or read it. Apart from anything else the type face is so small. They need a magnifying glass to enlarge the lying type. The lying Press types. No wonder people prefer to access the internet or spread information word of mouth and leafletting. On the campaign trail. Get on with it enough said.

  329. Petra

    @ Craig Murray says at 11:43 pm … ”Petra’s accusations of lying are disgraceful and untrue. AuoB gave a minute by minute account of all this in detail on Facebook, They co-operated with Police Scotland (who were excellent) in making sure everything passed off entirely peacefully.”

    You should get your facts right and know that I don’t make a habit of going around making wild, unsubstantiated allegations about people. What actually comes across in your post in fact is not so much what I’ve got say is untrue, more that you’ve just been duped by their ”minute by minute account on Facebook.”

    Manny Singh lied to us last year on ”Facebook” and he’s just lied to us again, hence him being arrested. And don’t just take my word to that effect, that he’s a liar, take Manny Singh’s own words when he announced on ”Facebook” that he had lied through his teeth following the Edinburgh march last year.

    Last year on the day prior to the Edinburgh march he stated on Facebook that:-

    ”AUOB had been granted permission We are proud to announce that Police Scotland have made an executive decision in the interests of health & safety and public order to facilitate our stance that we are rallying at Holyrood Park and are implementing emergency powers to make this happen.”

    HES followed that up by putting out this statement:-

    ”Our position on use of the Park for any rally after the march remains the same. It has not been overruled by Police Scotland. To confirm, we have not given permission for the set-up of stalls, staging, branding and other static presence within Holyrood Park.”

    The day after the march Manny Singh posted this on his Facebook page:-

    ”Oh by the way police never backed us. Small white lie. The person who represented them tried his hardest to make us go to parliament… When we went this morning many things could have happened. You may ask why the white lie. Because if we said we will go and set up on land without permission many people would have started crying and backing HES… this could affect numbers what they have always wanted to do. They were never going to budge. So we made a decision we would not bend a knee… Sorry for the lie but it was for the greater good. Me, Gary, Neil did what we did. Someone had to lead… I come from a long line of fighters. My ancestors were at war since the 7th century against the Islamic invasions.”

    There is no transparency in relation to AUOB. No website. No record of financial dealings which you would reckon there should be taking account of the many accusations being made against them. No show of minutes of meetings being held between GCC and AOUB which means that we don’t have a clue what went on from the time that the application was lodged until the march went ahead.

    And just to make it clear I support the Independence marches wholeheartedly … 100%, for more reasons than one. What I don’t like is being led by the nose by a bunch of liars, plus much more besides, one of whom seems to be driven by a past that has nothing to do with Scotland at all:- ”Someone had to lead … My ancestors were at war since the 7th century against the Islamic invasions.’’

    I also don’t like the fact that I too could be charged for taking part in the march, as was outlined on here last week, because Manny McCann has decided that he’s ”lied for the greater good.” Where have we come across rhetoric like that before? Dangerous to say the least.

    And when you get the time take a look at the articles by Jason McCann and even more so the comments sections. Take a look at who used to be the Directors of the Company and the ”overlap.” A real eyeopener I would say.

    One comment from ”Something stinks.”

    ”Also take note the company agent is based ironically in LONDON! This is public information which cannot be deleted by the corrupt crew that has hijacked the name. See page 12 of the incorporation document…”

  330. frogesque

    Perhaps if those in authority had always been honest about numbers attending rallies and our illustrious MSM honest about their reportage then just maybe it wouldn’t come as a late surprise that some 100-200k folk with their bairns and dogs would be likely to turn up on a Mast Day bank holiday weekend.

    If I had thought the march was likely to have involved trouble then I would still have gone, the only difference is I would have left the dog at home.

    My significant other, a 75 year old veteran of Greenham Common is currently going her duster over it all. Who the fuck do these tin pot jobsworths think they are is one of her more polite comments.

    Ffs the good citizens of Catalonia faced tear gas, rubber bullets, batons and show trials to try and get their freedom and we are debating the niceties of a rally start time?

    Grow up and grow a pair!

  331. Weechid

    “‘There are vast amounts of Yes-identifying accounts that are signalling against the SNP and causing arguments among the Yes side,’ he says. ”
    So we all have to agree with everything the SNP says?

  332. Robert Louis

    Craig Murray at 1143pm,

    Very well said. Glasgow city council was ‘at it’. They had the dates and times, as you rightly pointed out, for months, then bingo, with a week to go, THEY decided to force a change that would have destroyed the march. Buses from far away in Scotland simply could not ever hope to make it by 11am.

    This is game playing by Glasgow city council, no more, no less.

    The unionists really are feart.

  333. Robert Louis

    Frogesque at 0813am,

    Well said.

  334. Abulhaq
    May we soon celebrate the birth of the Scots Republic/Poblachd na h-Alba. Slàinte!

  335. Colin Alexander

    The first Saturday in July is when Glasgow hosts the big annual Orange Order Parade: The Orange Walk. This will be 6th July 2019. That is the same day as the AUOB walk in Ayr.

    Scottish OO marchers travel to the Ulster OO Parade for the 12th. What is a concern to me is that, Ulster OO unionists also travel from Ulster to the Scottish OO parade. OO marchers also come from other parts of Scotland.

    As far as I know, the Ulster guys come across on the ferry and travel up the AYR route A77 to Glasgow. This is the same road many people will be using to go to the AUOB march.

    Stu has reported on many occasions about Ulster Unionism.

    Maybe I’m worrying too much but, I fear for indy marchers safety if their paths cross.

  336. Breeks

    twathater says:
    7 May, 2019 at 4:23 am
    Yes Liz g you should certainly be forwarned and forearmed, but the reluctance of the AUOB officials to be openly transparent leaves many people suspicious and wary and when that trust is abused we know that it is difficult if not immposible to recover it ( wastemonster anyone )…

    Err… Holyrood anyone?

    I’m not disagreeing with you Twathater, but the whole Indy Campaign is shadow boxing and turning upon itself. An army with nobody to fight will fight with itself. The YES battalions have been marking time for too long and they are restless and exasperated. 100,000 of us will take to the streets with or without SNP endorsement or patronage. That really needs to be a wake-up call for the SNP heid yins.

    We need leadership. We need more robust coordination. We need focus…. ideally the SAME central focus, we need “someone” to Marshall the ranks to stop this falling apart. But above all, we NEED forward momentum.

    YES 2014 wasn’t a linear procession from point A to point B, it’s was raising the banner for Independence at the heart of Scotland and a call to arms for everybody and anybody to muster in support, and people came from every direction, covering every distance and social strata.

    But now seize upon the EU elections like the boon of finding a pound coin in the street. It’s snap shot politicking… it is literally mere opportunism. But what will having 2, 3, or 4 MEP’s actually change? What step towards Independence will it deliver? Why contest the number of MEP’s we have, but abandon the Greater contest for Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty which would cement our place and sovereign right to stay in the European Parliament?

    Give the people the critical path A – B – C – D… to securing Scotland’s Independence and recognised Constitutional Sovereignty and get the YES Dreadnought back in the water and underway.

  337. ScotsRenewables

    So some of the whinging prima Donna’s on here are saying they would not have gone on the march if they had known it was illegal. Ffs. Mass arrestsof Happy, peaceful marchers would have done the cause the world of good – it certainly did for ER

    We had our chance to do it the easy way in 2014 and bottled it. We will need to find our courage this time, not wring our hands and weep because the establishment does not give its approval.

  338. Abulhaq

    Poblachd na h-Caesar!….
    Does WordPress not like the Gaelic words for freedom and Scotland? Curious.

  339. Capella

    @ Abulhaq – it’s the filter which changes a-l-b-a to Caesar and s-a-o-r to heil! because of all the people who used to sign off their posts with the slogan. Stu doesn’t like that.

  340. Dan

    I’m trying to imagine how these fellow humans managed to put on the following event.
    I guess it might have started something like this:
    “Hi Local Authority, I’m looking to hold a procession through your streets with fire, pitchforks, large hammers, guns,and swords and that’s just the first minute!
    Oh, and then people standing 4 high which is technically above the safe working height rules.
    Then I’m thinking folk with clubs, then sickles…”

    Note the vid is filmed in one continuous take. Thousands of folk from all walks of life communicating with each other to choreograph and make it happen. Oh, for such unity…

  341. Abulhaq

    Independence is definitely, definitely coming, but if there’s a chance of rain it possibly might be coming sometime soon in the near future, providing conditions allow, however no guarantees are possible at this stage but it is certainly coming…..for aa that….
    Do we have permit?
    Vive l’Écosse Libre!

  342. Abulhaq

    Thanks for that…Hail Caesar! LOL

  343. Effijy

    Sky News reports that China has now taken its propaganda digital.
    Congratulations BBC in beating China by years.

    Wonder if they modelled it in the BBC’s format?

    Hey wait a minute. You don’t suppose Jackie Bird left for China?
    Bird’s Nest Propaganda Soup breakfast lunch and dinner!

  344. Famous15

    The Empire strikes back?

    Take a step back,three deep breaths and think about it.OK

    The Unionists are terrified. Do not feed their propaganda.

    Vote SNP,SNP.

  345. DerekM

    Hmm if Manny broke the law then he broke the law,though we must stand in solidarity with him because people throughout the world fighting for freedom do tend to break the law it kind of goes hand in hand.

    If they bang him up then Manny wins because even this old wreck will be at the next AUOB march even if it bloody kills me.

  346. Dave McEwan Hill

    Can we all calm down

    Manny Singh is not arrested. He has been referred to the Procurator Fiscal for potential arrest and charge.

    The AOUB march on Saturday was a spectaculer success. It was a vivid representation of the huge desire for Scottish independence.

    Glasgow City Council and the Police did everything by the book.
    AUOB did not and defied all the orders.
    They did the same with Edinburgh City Council and got away with.
    This has to stop.

    It is AUOB that is in danger of bringing our movement into disrepute.
    MS has agreed that he lied about the Edinburgh March and his dealing with the Police and Edinburgh City Council.
    Many decent people have left the organisation of AUOB because of the questionable behaviour of MS in a number of ways. We have seen concerned comment on here on a number of occasions.

    This sort of totally unnecessary damaging and public confrontation calls into question the whole usefulness of these marches. Our enemies are licking their lips. What a gift to them!

    This has to stop.
    (I was on the march)

  347. Dr Jim

    There are many participants in this war and many motives for supporting sides but all the participants are not necessarily on the sides people think they are, nor are they participating in this war for the reasons some may think they are

    There are people with unsavoury reasons for wanting Independence for Scotland because they see an opportunity for the types of politics most middle of the road people would normally reject but hope within a new system following Independence they can force their views with the surreptitious methods they’re employing right now

    Warnings from history clearly demonstrate all is never what it seems, and if it’s obvious then don’t trust it

    Loud whistles will blow from all sides to make you jump to conclusions the people blowing those whistles want you to, stay reasonable in your thinking by not reacting to the loudest whistlers, that includes as everybody should know Newspapers, ex or failed politicians, TV, and yes, online bloggers, they all have a motive for what they’re selling and they want you to buy it

    So have a care and take some time before you believe anything from or by anybody, remember the only people who can’t afford to lie to you are the SNP because if they did lie and were caught in that lie the entire Independence effort would be over and the electorate would’nt vote for them ever again, so think carefully on what detracters say because politically the SNP have the most to lose so they have to play a straight game or everybody, including them, who cares about an Independent Scotland just loses

  348. Robert Peffers

    @manandboy says: 6 May, 2019 at 11:58 pm:

    ” … Future historians will ask how and why the ‘propaganda war’ waged by Westminster against the Scottish people, started. The answers will vary, but the astute will tell of the discovery of oil and gas in large quantities in the North Sea off the coast of Aberdeen and then elsewhere.”

    Aye! manandboy but the even more astute know that it began long before that time. One of the more astute is the Rev Stu and you can read his evidence of Scotland being robbed long before oil was discovered in the North sea here in the Wings reference section:-

    Scotland was not bankrupt before the Treaty of Union was forced upon us. Only the wealthy land owners who invested heavily in the Darien Expedition were bankrupt. The Kingdom of Scotland had a healthy economy and no national debt.

    Those wealthy landowners were also the Scottish parliamentarians who were conned by the Darien Expedition scheme. Which scheme was instigated by the very same London Scot, William Paterson, who, some years previous, set up the subscription in The Kingdom of England to bail out the English crown/parliament that led to the formation of the private company, “The Governor & Company of the Bank of England”.

    There is the truth – The Kingdom of England had massive National debts and William Paterson was in the employ of Sir Robert Harley who was the English Spy Master. Who, by the way, also employed the English Spy, Danial Defoe who was also in Edinburgh pre-the signing of the Treaty of Union and his letters sent back to Harley reporting the successful English involvement in bribery, coercion and other dirty tricks to influence, “The Paircel o Rogues”, to sign away Scotland’s birth right to the perfidious Kingdom of England.

    Go read the figures in that Wings exposure – I’ll quote it again for you:-

  349. TD

    Breeks at 8.34 a.m.

    “Give the people the critical path A – B – C – D…”

    The trouble with that as a tactic is that the enemy knows your plans as well. There is a real dilemma for Sturgeon – should she show her hand to keep the movement happy or should she keep it all secret and take the opposition by surprise when she does make a move. I could argue it both ways, but I think we need to remember that none of us have all of the information that she has. Unlike some who post here, I have confidence in Sturgeon and the SNP to make the right calls. I also accept that I may not always understand why she does what she does.

  350. dramfineday

    A bit late on this thread I know, but I too was at the march on Saturday and thoroughly enjoyed the atmosphere. I’d like to thank the very many Asian Scots who came out of their shops and houses to greet us as we passed, particularly the children who were “high fiving” for all they were worth. The interaction with us was lovely.

    So it becomes particularly galling to find out that many Singh has put himself in harms way to organise the march for us. It’s beholden of us to now stand by Manny as a show of solidarity.

    I’d didn’t make the Green, got as far as George Square and had to bail out. Interesting too that the only angry men (and women) I had seen all day were the British Nationalist howling pack.

  351. Legerwood

    Dr Jim @ 9.30 am

    Very well said. Totally agree.

  352. Scot Finlayson

    More probs with the F35,

    `The top brass of Australia’s defense force have been warned in a report that its multi-billion-dollar fleet of F-35s are at risk of “corrosion” and may require constant access to a dehumidification system to keep them operational.

    the combination of salt and climatic conditions at Newcastle’s Williamtown Air Base can cause a chemical reaction with the aluminium alloy used in the construction of the F-35A Lightning II.`

    how do you protect planes that are at sea for months on end from salt and climatic conditions ?

  353. Socrates MacSporran

    Colin Alexander @ 8.33am

    Relax Colin, you’re worrying about nothing. Please allow me, someone who lives in “Orange County,” as Ayrshire is known, to explain what happens.

    The Ulster Orangemen will, by and large, arrive in Scotland on the Friday, and be entertained overnight by whatever local Orange branch they are aligned to.

    They will enjoy a guid swally on the Friday night down at the local Orange club, then, bright and early on the Saturday morning they will be up, to march past their local chapel and generally annoy the locals.

    They will then get on a bus and travel up to Glasgow or wherever their local District march is being held, where they cause even more disruption in late morning, lunch time, travelling to the big rally.

    They get to the park, may listen to a couple of the big speakers, then disperse to the nearby pubs for another guid swally – before lining up for the march off.

    Then, it’s back onto the buses, back to the local town, for another wee march back to the Orange Hall, by which time, they are ready for another guid swally and maybe a wee dance.

    On the Sunday they are too knackered to do anything other than get on the bus and sleep most of the way back to Ulster.

    Sure, there is the chance of an occasional isolated coming together. But, please feel for the likes of old Manky Jaiket, he has a difficult choice: go to Ayr and make a tit of himself again, or join in the Big Walk and be one tit among many.

  354. Giving Goose

    Perhaps some edgyness injected into the Yes campaign is a good idea.
    There is a lot of comment about the SNP being too nice and playing to “gentlemanly & gentlewomanly rules.”
    The MSM, especially broadcast media, is not called out for it’s lies and propaganda.
    Playing by the rules only works is everyone is doing it.

  355. cassandra

    @Dr Jim

    Sounds like ‘concern’trolling there. Thought you had flounced off, the need for approbation is too strong? Why should people vote for a party that calls a proportion of their voters ‘trash’?

    What exactly do the SNP stand for now because from where I am they are happy to throw colleagues under a bus, court the wokey weirdos, ignore women and generally treat voters with contempt because they think there is no one else to vote for.

    Ex Labour voters remember that attitude and won’t be fooled again, long-term SNP voters cannot bear to think their party is not above all that. Reality, huh?

    @’Peffers’ where exactly is it written in the constitutional law of Scotland that we are sovereign? Which statute?

  356. Al Dossary

    Been holding my thoughts on this a little.

    Manny Singh whatever your thoughts has put his neck on the line. The alternative to his “little white lie” would be to roll over and go back in the box forever. To charge him is a spectacular own goal by the establishment.

    That the parades commission in particular were less than fair by holding the needing a mere 10 days before a March was due to take place that they had known about for many months is indisputable. The members of the parades commission present were 2 greens and 1 SNP councillor.

    But what options were available? “Bend the knee”? Move the march this time and before you know it they will have you marching at 7am on a Sunday. Just look at what Stirling did last year in re-routing the March through the estates and back roads. That probably was on the mind of the organisers.

    100k marchers and not 1 arrest or bit of trouble from what I can see (outside of the jolly band of AFFG’s brainwashed Yoon bigots being abusive). Outnumbered at least 2000:1, yet “The Mooth” still lies to us by saying there is no appetite for indy.

    Send Mr Singh to prison and it only strengthens the feeling against the establishment by creating a martyr. Fone him and he went have to dip his hand in his pocket to pay it. Ultimately I believe the move by the establishment is to set the grounds for refusing a March in future. Screw it, 100k people should just turn up anyway for a wee Saturday stroll if they do.

    Anyway, what’s all the fuss? According to Mr Manky shirt and his little band from the local Lodge there were only 8,947 marched on Saturday. Just tell them next year that based on these figures you expect 10k to March.

  357. James Caithness

    Have a look who is on this board? This is the think tank who Kezia Dugdale is going to be employed by.

    Other board members are John Smith’s family members and Glasgow Uni Alumni. Sarah Smith BBC, and would John Curtice be one of the Glasgow Uni Alumni?

  358. Legerwood

    Craig Murray at 12:54 am

    “”Your [Ken 500] idea that it was just Neil McKay making it up is sadly disproved by the fact that Angus Robertson tweeted out the article with approval.””

    What was said in the article had already been said by Mr Robertson at a fringe meeting at the SNP conference and reported by the Herald on the 28th April but under a far less inflammatory headline.

    Mr Robertson’s remarks, and the others quoted in the article, in no way warranted the headline for the series of articles but it certainly provoked the response it was explicitly designed to do.

    You are not the first to allude to Mr Robertson’s tweet and like the others who have done so you give no link to it.

  359. Ghillie

    Aye Dr Jim @ 9.30 am Very well said and most astute!

    Thing is, once Scotland is Independent we the folk of Scotland must stay engaged in our politics and always be ready to read between the lines, read past the headlines, KNOW and UNDERSTAND what is going on, and when necessary, who’s feet to hold to the fire.

    NOTHING must ever be allowed to slip under our radar.

    Scotland will be ours to run as we see fit and that means taking responsibility.

    And watching out for those who would spoil that.

  360. Robert Peffers

    @Weechid says: 7 May, 2019 at 8:17 am:

    ” … So we all have to agree with everything the SNP says?”

    Your downright lies mark you for what you are, Weechid.

    No one here on Wings has either said or implied that everyone must agree with the SNP. For starters I don’t and probably never will.

    Your nasty implication is no better than a downright lie.

    The thing always said is if you really are an independence supporter then you know full well you harm the independence movement by criticism of the FM/SG/SNP on an open forum and that doing so will not change whoever you criticise by doing so but you will have an effect by contacting whoever you criticise directly.

    Now let’s see your evidence that anyone has said you should not criticise the FM/SG/SNP?

  361. Craig Murray


    “You are not the first to allude to Mr Robertson’s tweet and like the others who have done so you give no link to it.”

    I am sorry, I was giving you credit for the ability to look it up. Evidently I misjudged. Here is Angus Robertson’s tweet gleefully tweeting out Neil McKay’s article.

    It is perfectly plain on reading through McKay’s article that it was written in active cooperation with MacDonald and Robertson. Robertson’s tweet confirms his approval. Snap out of denial.

  362. schrodingers cat

    @ breeks says

    We need leadership. We need more robust coordination. We need focus…. ideally the SAME central focus, we need “someone” to Marshall the ranks to stop this falling apart. But above all, we NEED forward momentum.

    YES 2014 wasn’t a linear procession from point A to point B, it’s was raising the banner for Independence at the heart of Scotland and a call to arms for everybody and anybody to muster in support, and people came from every direction, covering every distance and social strata.

    I’m not sure we do need a leader, even blair jenkins admitted in 2013 that he had lost control of the yes movement. also, i dont know by what mechanism we could use to decide who would lead? i know, i’ve tried to do this on wos btl. no success.

    also, the starting gun for this movement was the actual referendum in 2014. before then, it burned slowly. Yes morphed into snp and huge numbers of activists were activated, membership soared and culminating in a white wash for the snp in 2015.

    we marveled at nicola filling a conference with 19k folk, (yessers could now fill hampden!)

    more rambling politics

    during indyref1, the unionists claimed that yes was an snp front, YESNP etc, to that end, we promoted the idea that YES was a cross party organisation, LFI, RIC, SSP, RISE SGR etc, we made a point of removing snp logos, leaflets and merchandise, changing hats, as it were, to suit the occasion. we still do this.

    but these smaller parties and their leaders, haggerty, kat boyd, johnathan shafi etc, over egged their importance, used the movement to further their journalistic careers, but when elections arrived, the votes counted, they were found out to be a very very very minor part of the yes movement. (the greens will follow the same fate very shortly)

    so maybe the unionists were right about YESNP?. Pete Bell said (i sumarise) “Diversity is a strength within a movement, but not during a campaign when a clear and single message is needed”

    I think he is right.

    so an election or a referendum? whatever comes first, then second, then… vote YESNP

    either today or tomorrow, corbyn will walk out of the talks with treeza and she will be gone by the weekend. the election of a new right wing PM and subsequent GE, will be the starting pistol of this movements round 2.

  363. Ghillie

    Robert Peffers @ 9.37 am Thank you =)

    Hearing how things were in Scotland at the time around the treaty of union never gets old. So many folk just do not know the truth of the matter.

    The Darien Disaster was designed to bring about the stealing of Scotland’s natural wealth. Some things have not changed.

    Till now.

    TD @ 9.38 am Well said =)

    And to all our concern trolls:

    Yes, I trust Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP to bring us to where we need to be to win Independence for Scotland. They have my confidence 🙂

  364. James Caithness

    Unless the leadership gets a grip and stops this indiscipline from their own people against their own side, they will end up “GRABBING DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY”

  365. mike cassidy

    Just a thought.

    Does anybody expect the Glasgow Parades commission to meet 10 days before the 6th July Orange Order walk

    and impose new conditions?

  366. Marie Clark

    Well said Dr Jim 9.30am, agree with you.

    I’m a bit scunnert at a’ this stushie. I was very disappointed in the three SNP folk and their comments. Then the cooncillor who calls us trash. That’s not a good look to call anyone trash. I see she tried to backtrack a bit, but she really meant the same thing among the waffle.

    Is this really what they think of us? We, the people who marched for indy, leafleted, chapped doors and talked to folk to try and persuade them to vote yes. That’s us, ordinary Joe and Josephine public. Most of us not members of any political party, out there doing our bit for an independent Scotland, because we care about our country and its citizens. It was us, the grassroots, rather than the politicians who grew the movement, and we damned near got it over the line, frightening the life out of the establishment.

    Well I’m certainly not best pleased at what’s happening at the moment, but you know what, I’m still going to be out there fighting for Scotland. It’s what I believe in, a better country for all of our children and grandchildren.

    I’m in my seventies now, and I sometimes wonder if I will see my country set free in my lifetime. Like Robert Peffers,although Robert is a bit older than me, I’ve fought a long time, and I sure as hell am not for giving up now.

  367. schrodingers cat

    @James Caithness

    gotta agree, but this mhairi hunter has previous on twitter, bit of a rogue element. Im not sure what she actually does in the snp

  368. Robert Peffers

    @Scot Finlayson says: 7 May, 2019 at 9:53 am:

    … how do you protect planes that are at sea for months on end from salt and climatic conditions ?”

    Don’t know but why not ask someone who still survives who worked on the WWII Fleet Air Arm on the carriers and aircraft that flew then? Think on this the post WWII Long range surveillance aircraft based at Lossiemouth that were basically converted WWII Bombers and flew over seas and oceans for many, many years.

  369. Robert J. Sutherland

    schrodingers cat @ 10:48,

    Points all well made there, s~cat.

    It’s a difficult one. Like it or not, the SNP and SG do need some grassroots “jollying-along” (and have implicitly conceded as much at times), but progress isn’t helped by the dissonance and petty rivalries of some supposed support factions which vary from their own version of self-entitlement to outright parasitism. (Socialist Worker types, for example, are attracted to public events like flies to raw meat, and have been since I was a lad, but their committment to Scottish independence is less than zero.) Most if not all of them are entirely unproductive, alas.

    Maybe if SIC were to stop pontificating among themselves and get down to actual organising it would help. Why are they not organising the marches, for example…?

  370. Cubby

    Al Dossary@10.22am

    “Just look at what Stirling did last year in re – routing the march through the estates and back roads.”

    I was at the Stirling/Bannockburn march last year and I agree it was atrocious the route the council forced on AUOB. Tiny zigzagging streets through housing estates. Totally inappropriate.

    Some Councils/councillors now seem intent on dirty tricks and attempts to disrupt the marches. However, I don’t think AUOB should be lying to marchers (if that is what they did). I am sick of Britnat lies we don’t need any more.

    As others have said why did the police let the march go ahead and then subsequently arrest an organiser. There’s something rotten in the UK state. I bet it is a Tory councillor(s) that complained to the police.

    All these marches and no problems. A decent media would be commending the marches. The police should be commending the marches not arresting an organiser.

  371. James Caithness

    schrodingers cat says:
    7 May, 2019 at 11:17 am
    @James Caithness

    gotta agree, but this mhairi hunter has previous on twitter, bit of a rogue element. Im not sure what she actually does in the snp


    She works for Nicola Sturgeon in her Govan constituency office and is also a councillor, according to reports on twitter, going back months.

    I personally blocked this Mhairi Hunter months ago. She has also issued an apology on twitter for her comment, but the apology is in the mood of Maria Millar in the HoCs.

  372. Robert Peffers

    @cassandra says: 7 May, 2019 at 10:10 am:

    ” … @’Peffers’ where exactly is it written in the constitutional law of Scotland that we are sovereign? Which statute?”

    I’m not even going to bother answering that claptrap. What, “Written Constitutional Law”, might that be you imagine exists?

    Oh! Don’t bother answering. There is no point.

  373. Liz g

    Mike Cassidy @ 10.56
    And would you support the OO if the Council gave them conditions and they refused to meet them?

    Also can we put this “10 day’s” before nonsense to bed AUOB we’re told back in March the time would need to change.

    It’s one thing to stand against a hostile decision,but quite another to refuse a reasonable request!
    I would have thought it was obvious why the late start time was a problem when the numbers changed!

    On a bank holiday Saturday the city centre would be expected to be busy,typically around lunch time.
    An additional 20,000 people would make it Very Busy.
    But an additional 100,000 is way too many people for comfort.
    In that instance it would be sensible to change the start time so that people arrive fed and ready to march,and that the march is going on while the others in the city are,trying to get home after a morning shop,arriving in for an afternoon shop and/or attempting to get a spot of lunch,along with the workers who didn’t get the bank holiday trying to grab a bite within an allotted time.
    It makes more sense to stagger all these people crossing over throughout the city and it keeps the City itself running smoothly.
    That the City managed on Saturday is only viewed from a marchers point of view. We don’t know how much disruption we caused to others ( I’m only speaking of disruption that could have been mitigated here) on their day in the City..
    As I’ve previously said these rules are there for a reason,and if we are going to pick a battle,we should at least be demonstrably in the right!
    As for the OO marches ordinary people stay away from the City when these are happening,and, IMO when enough people do that the Council will curb them….

  374. Craig Murray

    Cubby at 11.36am you are absolutely right. I too remember being diverted down the lanes to Bannockburn.
    On Saturday I witnessed the police and Mannie Singh cooperating very happily together, with the senior officers in charge, in making the march safe and orderly, with no antagonism between them at all.
    The orders to arrest him have come since and from very high up.

  375. schrodingers cat

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    totally agree, after the indyref1, they tried to jump on the yes band wagon, organising rallys but also inviting trade unionists. who I know campaigned for no, to speak,

    they got found out but not before they put themselves forward as the accceptable voice of yes for the uk msm landing plum journalist jobs, like haggerty

    then johnathon shafi rushing to a scottish labour party conference to meet jeremey.

    cat boyd then saying she voted for corbyn in the 2017 ge (how she did that i dont know)

    thing is, the ssp stood 4 candidates in 2015 ge (£2000) and got 800 votes???

    point being, we can lose them, we dont need them, they represent no one. we promoted them during indyref1 because it seemed like the right tactic, but now, I think we need to stand on a yesnp ticket. It was joked by an elderly snp member at my branch who noticed that alex was no longer signing his name with the epitaph SNP leader (fm of scotland) and that during indyref1 the snp became the voldemort party ie “the party that must not be named” 🙂

    who knows, it may have been the correct tactic at the time…… but not now

  376. Cubby


    That post means I am confident that you are just another Britnat disrupter. I hope this is a nice comment and you do not get too upset. Care to explain in a nice way of course why Britnat disrupters like you post on Wings. Why not put your case for the Union? What are the benefits to Scotland of staying in the UK – that is something you never read in any Britnat posts.

  377. Liz g

    James Caithness @ 10.55 & Shrodingers Cat @ 11.17
    Absolutely agree this woman needs pulled into line.
    Apart from the comment itself being so insulting,Nicola is going to be asked time and time again it she agrees with it,if she doesn’t act.
    This women just made a never-ending supply of ball’s and handed them to the British Nationalists to fire at the First Minister!

  378. Ian Brotherhood

    @Marie Clark (11.01) –

    Hear hear.

    I can’t remember being quite as angry as I was yesterday when I saw that Mhairi Hunter tweet, and am still ragin!

    I went to the march meself, from Ayrshire. Didn’t have much change from £30 by the time I got home. Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that 70,000 were there on Saturday (at various times, over the course of the day, that seems a fair guess). Some would’ve spent less than me but many, esp those with the weans, must have spent an awful lot more. Let’s just take £30 as an average for the whole day per head. That’s £2,100,000. And that’s a conservative estimate.

    And how do we put a ‘price’ on the months of preparation, paying for the Police, the disruption to traffic etc etc. I can’t even get my head around it, but the basic point is that we ALL wanted to convey a message i.e. that our movement is progressive and peaceful as well as powerful.

    And what happens?

    Four words in a single tweet wreck much of the good that was done.

    I’m scunnered.

  379. Cubby

    AUOB march Glasgow

    I fully recognise that depending on where you are in the March in Glasgow you may have a different experience but comparing this year with last year my experience was that the March actually proceeded a lot quicker than last year.

    I think it would have gone even quicker and smoother if like last year we had avoided passing Queen st station. The current works there created a bottle neck. I’m not sure why and who wanted the route to change from last year. In summary I personally did not notice that the change of time caused any additional congestion problems. I got to the park and with no problem and was in fact early.

    I am always sorry to read people saying I’m not going on future marches because ………..

    I am always sorry to read people saying I am not voting for SNP or independence anymore because……..

    Not a good look I’m afraid. Tried to say that in as nice a way possible.

  380. Flower of Scotland

    @Ian Brotherhood 12.13pm

    I was at the March too. Asked a group of Police standing at gates of Glasgow Green how many had marched. They told us that about 150,000 so far. We didn’t go into the Green because we were tired. It was a hard walk. We had to shuffle and stop sometimes. Sore on the back, but will do it every time there’s a march.

    I don’t know what’s happened to the SNP this year. It’s like they’ve made a New Years resolution to take the Independence movement away from the grassroots. Maybe it’s a control thing.

    I really don’t care about the SNP. I’ve been a member for 55 years and been through some controversial times. I still vote SNP, even though I hold my nose sometimes.

    Nicola Sturgeon needs to get control of her MPs, MEPs, MSPs and Councillors! They must stop abusing their own YES movement.

  381. yesindyref2

    Here’s a tweet from Angus Robertson:

    “Appeal for nuance and persuasion, not insult and attack. How positive communication is key to win Scottish independence. Pls RT if you agree. 1:41 AM – 5 May 2019”

    with a link to the Herald article. Which presumably therefore endorses it in full.

    No tweet at all from him about the march, the joyous happy march with 100,000 of us on it.

  382. yesindyref2

    @Scot Finlayson
    It’s the A version of the F35 the Australians have, for land-based operations. It’s the B version, the marinised version, the carriers are flying.

  383. Jeff

    Manny Singh has been jailed for three months.

  384. Liz g

    Cubby @ 12.22
    I agree that to take a huff over one particular issue and claim not to support or vote for something as big as yer countries future is foolish beyond reason.
    Any issues for the City wouldn’t be very apparent while the march was on going Cubby,it would be the arrival and dispersal times….But mainly the arrival time,from about 11.45 till the march started, there would have been a massive cross over of people,and not everyone made their way to the start,some waited in the City Centre to join. Many of the marchers would want a bit of lunch and to use the WCs before hand at what would be an already busy time of day… That where the stress points are and that’s where staggering the people is safer!

  385. yesindyref2

    Don’t be daft, he can’t be jailed without a court hearing and a defence.

    @Liz g
    I was at George Square, there were about 50 tops including me apart form the UK lot. Some of the marchers did peel off to have a sit down and a break, it seems some left the march there as well and didn’t go back. Not a lot though, the square wasn’t mobbed.

  386. Robert Kerr

    Could we please have some journalism.

    M Singh is mentioned often but the three councillors are nameless apparatchiks.

    Please publish their names and details and lets have open government even in GCC,

  387. yesindyref2

    @Robert Kerr
    From btl on The National, can’t vouch for the accuracy:

    “councillors Annette Christie (SNP), Christina Cannon (SNP) and Jon Molyneux (Green)”

  388. Liz g

    Jeff @ 12.41
    Clown …

  389. Legerwood

    yesindyref2 says:
    7 May, 2019 at 12:36 pm
    Here’s a tweet from Angus Robertson:

    “Appeal for nuance and persuasion, not insult and attack. How positive communication is key to win Scottish independence. Pls RT if you agree. 1:41 AM – 5 May 2019”

    with a link to the Herald article. Which presumably therefore endorses it in full.

    No tweet at all from him about the march, the joyous happy march with 100,000 of us on it.””

    Why would he not endorse his remarks if he had already made remarks along similar lines at the SNP conference in April and they had already been reported at the time?

    His remarks and the others have been said on here times without number.

    As I said earlier the remarks bore no relation to the title which was the usual Herald click bait and you admitted as much in an earlier post after you had read the article for a second time.

    I suspect a lot of people who went off the deep end just read the title. There was no declaration of war from Mr Robertson or the others. That existed only in the fetid imagination of the author of the piece.

    As to why he did not tweet about the March, who knows, why not ask him. Did he need to? Were the marchers bairns who need constant praise? Or sentient human beings well able to articulate their reasons for marching and in no need of approval from any quarter?

  390. Liz g

    Yesindyref2 @ 12.53
    Just like the motorway systems, when it works it works,but one glich can cause issues for miles.
    Planning can only identify potential problems and try to work around it and it can’t do a thing about an unintended happening,like freak weather, accidents ect.
    When nothing happens ye will likely not even be aware of the planning,but when it does ye will know it.
    And if there’s no proper planning in place or it is ignored ye will likely know it to yer cost

  391. Jeff

    Liz g


  392. Liz g

    Jeff @ 1.22
    Why thank you Jeff I thought so too

  393. A. Bruce

    Well done that man Manny Singh- a man with courage who stood up for the good of the cause. Three times these marches have been interfered with by the councils and Manny knew that this last minute change would ruin the whole event, which was the plan. There needs to be more people like him who take necessary action rather than people like Petra pussyfooting around because someone might get there toes trodden on. I have been on dozens of demos in Germany that were “not allowed”, the last being in Brokdorf against a new nuclear reactor that was being built just after the disaster at Chernobyl. We were bombarded with CS gas grenades thrown from helicopters and truncheoned even though kids were present. In the face of dirty tricks you can’t play by the rules.

  394. Dr Jim

    Every wagon has a band but not everyone can be in the band so they look for another wagon to hitch themselves to even if that wagon is completely opposite and has a bad band who play bad music but they still don’t mind because they belong to a wagon and that’ll do

    They can’t just admire or enjoy the first band because in their minds that band excluded them so they now hate that band with a vengeance no matter how good the music, and the more people who do enjoy the first band the more the *excluded* people hanging on to the second band hate them

    Like children picking their favourite Beatle most girls went for Paul because he was the best looking, boys liked John because he was cool then you had the annoyed friends who claimed Ringo as their Beatle as an anti handsome character while George was for the discerning thinking folk

    Politics is not dissimilar, many people have’nt a clue about what’s good or bad music, or politics, yet they claim to, and if challenged the answer is *I know what I like*

    So there’s the problem *I know what I like* can’t be rationalised, it just is, because the folk who use that argument over politics are the same people who’ll argue black is white over who’s the best Beatle

  395. Colin Alexander

    End British Empire rule over Scotland.

    An end to SNP-administered British Empire colonial Holyrood.

    Time for a supreme Scottish parliament that represents and serves the sovereign the people of Scotland.

    No more “sovereign” UK Parliament based on royal sovereignty of the Monarch of England.

    Time for Scotland to have democratic freedom from the chains of British imperial slavery.

    They took our wealth and the lives of our people in their colonial wars. They drive our people to destitution and despair with their austerity while the minted Imperials grow richer.

    Time for the people of Scotland to take back our freedom.

    Manny Singh for FM and first president of the Republic of Scotland.

    Our Scottish lion and our hero. We salute you.

  396. Petra

    @ Cubby says at 11:36 am …. ”As others have said why did the police let the march go ahead and then subsequently arrest an organiser. There’s something rotten in the UK state. I bet it is a Tory councillor(s) that complained to the police.”

    That’s the whole point Cubby. Manny Singh was informed of the conditions and possible repercussions if he went ahead with the march without complying (start time). He went ahead anyway by thumbing his nose at the Police, Fire Service, etc, knowing that he could get away with it because how on earth could the Police actually stop the march at that time? The Police no doubt discussed the alternatives and decided that they wouldn’t be able to halt the march without taking the chance that it would have caused absolute havoc, hence having to let it go ahead.

    Manny (et al) seemingly broke away from AUOB last year and set up his own Company? The third AUOB company. How did that come about? Who was in charge before? Are there now two or even three AUOB Companies?


    Company number SC550993


    Company number SC601370

    Anyway the point being is that many people don’t trust him. You can’t run something like this whilst lying through your teeth to the grassroots movement. It just smacks of what we’re having to put up with from Unionist politicians, the MSM and so on. Not exactly what I envisaged for a future Independent Scotland. Too many people don’t have faith in him now and as I’ve said already surely there’s someone better placed, competent and honest, that could run the company and organise the marches and more than anything do so whilst abiding by the law?

  397. Robert J. Sutherland

    Jeff @ 12:41,

    Why are you posting demonstratably fake “news”? On here of all places? It’s shit-stirrers like you that prove Alyn Smith right about false friends.

    Yet another first-name fraud.

  398. Colin Alexander


    Do you think Nicola Sturgeon is being completely honest when suggesting there will be an indyref2 in the lifetime of this Scottish Parliament?

    Is it honest to give the independence movement false hope, just to create a grievance over indyref2 not going ahead when the UK Govt say NO! Is it right for the Scot Govt and SNP to bend the knee in obedience to their imperial masters?

    Just to boost SNP votes for the 2021 Scottish Election to give them another few years of administering British Empire devolution rule?

    I hope I am wrong about my suspicions about the FM and SNP but that’s how it looks to me.

    Time will tell.

  399. CameronB Brodie

    “I’m not even going to bother answering that claptrap. What, “Written Constitutional Law”, might that be you imagine exists?”

    OFFS, the UK is not an anarchy, of course we have written constitutional and administrative law. How else is the Prime-minister abusing her constitutional authority with the intent of dictating Scotland’s future (see A50)? She is both ignoring and manipulating English legal doctrine, which is the moral law underpinning the British constitution. Subsequently, the Prime-minister does not appear to be a constitutional democrat, she appears to be an English, utilitarian, despot.

    The British constitution is outdated and unable to protect the human rights of Scotland’s resident nationals. The full-English Brexit proves this as fact.

    What is the UK Constitution?

    Constitutions organise, distribute and regulate state power. They set out the structure of the state, the major state institutions, and the principles governing their relations with each other and with the state’s citizens. Britain is unusual in that it has an ‘unwritten’ constitution: unlike the great majority of countries there is no single legal document which sets out in one place the fundamental laws outlining how the state works. Britain’s lack of a ‘written’ constitution can be explained by its history.

    In other countries, many of whom have experienced revolution or regime change, it has been necessary to start from scratch or begin from first principles, constructing new state institutions and defining in detail their relations with each other and their citizens. By contrast, the British Constitution has evolved over a long period of time, reflecting the relative stability of the British polity.

    It has never been thought necessary to consolidate the basic building blocks of this order in Britain. What Britain has instead is an accumulation of various statutes, conventions, judicial decisions and treaties which collectively can be referred to as the British Constitution. It is thus more accurate to refer to Britain’s constitution as an ‘uncodified’ constitution, rather than an ‘unwritten’ one.

    It has been suggested that the British Constitution can be summed up in eight words: What the Queen in Parliament enacts is law. This means that Parliament, using the power of the Crown, enacts law which no other body can challenge. Parliamentary sovereignty is commonly regarded as the defining principle of the British Constitution. This is the ultimate lawmaking power vested in a democratically elected Parliament to create or abolish any law.

    Other core principles of the British Constitution are often thought to include the rule of law, the separation of government into executive, legislative, and judicial branches, and the existence of a unitary state, meaning ultimate power is held by ‘the centre’ – the sovereign Westminster Parliament. However, some of these principles are mythical (the British constitution may be better understood as involving the fusion of executive and legislature) or in doubt (Parliamentary sovereignty may now be called in question given the combined impact of Europe, devolution, the Courts, and human rights).

    The British Constitution is derived from a number of sources. Statutes are laws passed by Parliament and are generally the highest form of law. Conventions are unwritten practices which have developed over time and regulate the business of governing. Common law is law developed by the courts and judges through cases.

    The UK’s accession to the European Communities Act 1972 has meant that European law is increasingly impacting on the British Constitution. The UK is also subject to international law. Finally, because the British Constitution cannot be found in any single document, politicians and lawyers have relied on constitutional authorities to locate and understand the constitution….

  400. Cubby

    Petra@1.57pm and others

    I do not attend the marches to support the SNP.

    I do not attend the marches to support Mannie Singh.

    I attend the marches to support a better independent Scotland.

    I do however recognise the work that Singh and others and the SNP put in to trying to achieve Scottish independence.

    I do not know the details of how the marches are organised or the merits or otherwise of AUOB personnel but I didn’t see and still don’t see a problem in the timing of 1.30. The new route did cause a bit of a bottleneck at Nelson Mandela/Queen st station. But that was the route not the timing. Arresting the guy seems over the top reaction. Could do a bit of whatabouttery but won’t bother.

    Anyone know why the route changed?

    All this arresting of an organiser just makes me more determined to go to more marches this year. Not all people involved in independence will be to everyone’s taste. AUOB need to be honest with marchers. Most people are decent.

  401. yesindyref2

    You’d said “You are not the first to allude to Mr Robertson’s tweet and like the others who have done so you give no link to it.”

    so I posted the link you asked for, to Angus Robertson’s tweet.

    Secondly, in Angus Robertson’s tweet, the article clearly has the title “SNP declares war on cybernats“, and since Robertson asks for a retweet, it means he endorses it.

    as you yourself say:

    As I said earlier the remarks bore no relation to the title which was the usual Herald click bait “.

    but Robertson doesn’t point that out.

    I suspect a lot of people who went off the deep end just read the title. There was no declaration of war from Mr Robertson or the others. That existed only in the fetid imagination of the author of the piece.

    Indeed, so why does Angus Robertson endorse such an article with such a loaded and apparently inacurate, title, without point out its falseness – if it is false?”

  402. Cubby

    Colin Alexander @2.11pm

    “Time will tell”

    It certainly will – I have made that point myself in the past. So just why do you feel the need to constantly post SNP baaaaaaad posts every day. Not just once a day but multiple times.

    I’m still taking the Herald “be nice pills” – so care to explain why that doesn’t make you a Britnat who is concern trolling. Hope that is nice enough for you and it has not upset you.

  403. Craig Murray

    I have been interested by the vitriol with which some on this site defend Nicola despite her continually kicking Indyref2 further and further into the long grass, but loyalty is a good quality and people are entitled to their opinion.
    To see precisely the same people defending the MacDonald/Robertson/Mackay collaboration on the obviously untrue grounds that they were not really onboard with it, leads me to worry that loyalty is leading to delusion.
    But when precisely the same people start to support the arrest of Mannie Singh, that crosses a line and is absolutely unforgivable. Anybody who supports Mannie’s arrest is no part of the Independence movement.

  404. yesindyref2

    100,000 people went on the march, and I see no massive outpouring anywhere saying: “I don’t trust that Manny Singh”, just a half dozen people, that’s all.

    What I do see is photos all over the place, and outpourings of the march was great, nice to meet people, very positive. Plus some wishing they’d been able to get there but they were ill, were elsewhere, otherwise busy.

    The march was uplifting, a great tonic for those of us that needed one.

  405. Sandy

    100,000 citizens take part in illegal march. As all being law-abiding citizens, might I suggest that each and every one of you immediately present yourselves at your local police station so that you may be arrested and charged for this blatant breach of the country’s law, thus saving police time and resources.

  406. yesindyref2

    I was thinking something similar.

  407. Liz g

    Craig Murray @ 2.45
    Who here has supported his arrest?
    And more importantly….
    Who gets to decide on who is or isn’t part of the Yes movement ?
    Do tell I’d like to meet the person with such infallible power!

  408. Cubby

    Craig Murray@2.45pm

    “Anybody who supports Mannies arrest is no part of the independence movement.”

    Sorry Craig but a wrong and inappropriate comment.

  409. Craig Murray

    No, it is absolutely appropriate. In fact I will say it again. Anybody who supports Manny’s arrest is no part of the Independence movement.

  410. Capella

    @ whoever was asking – the councillors are named in the minute of the GCC committee meeting. Ronnie posted the link earlier.
    ronnie anderson says:
    6 May, 2019 at 8:38 pm

    It is an interesting read and, if accurate, shows the problems with Manny Singh’s handling of the application. Not that it justifies arrest IMO

  411. Liz g

    Craig Murray @ 4.40
    And do ye stick her fingers in her ears when ye say it ?

    I’ll ask again who is it that has this authority to put support for Manny Sing as a condition to be a part of the Yes movement?
    Try just that for now…
    Then if ye find the manners tae respond then we may get to who exactly on here has “supported his arrest” assertion!

  412. yesindyref2

    As Liz g says, nobody has said such a thing. But you saying it implies that someone has, so the onus is now on you to trawl the whole thread and pick out any comment that supports your implicit accusation.

    I read it, and it also shows the problems of dealing with “city hall”. They have the time and resources, after all we pay for it. And can leave things to the very last minute to cause the maximum disruption. What do AUOB have, considering theur fundraiser failed to meet its target?

  413. Petra

    Oh well a problem with my post. Splitting it up.

    @ Cubby says at 2:35 pm … ”but I didn’t see and still don’t see a problem in the timing of 1.30.”

    Well Cubby you and I don’t know all the in’s and out’s of what’s entailed in carrying out a risk assessment for such an event. That’s what the experts at Police Scotland, the Fire Service and the Council are there for.

    It just so happens that we’re a trouble free crowd, but what if the OO decided that they were going to march 100,000 people through Glasgow and disobey the rules as Manny Singh has done now, on at least two occasions, and has in fact gone on to set the precedence for others to do so too by stating, ”I will continue to defy any restrictions from the powers to be”…

    No one wants to see these marches coming to an end. I’ve been to most of them and in fact had a great day out. More than anything I love to think of the message that they are sending out to Westminster, however we don’t want to see the marches being used by the MSM to castigate our cause if an accident / death was to occur due to us not abiding by the rules and regulations. Imagine how that would go down and ask yourself how many people it would would influence to support our cause … or rather not.

    It’s not good enough that the individual organising these events has been lying to us, breaking the law and then deciding that in doing so, unbeknownst to me and thousands of others, it’s ”for the greater good.”

    If Manny Singh is to continue as organisor he should get his act together. Set up a website and inform us all, through minutes taken, of what’s been agreed or not at every meeting that takes place between him and the Councils and additionally be more transparent about money that’s being raised through crowdfunders / buckets to put a halt to the accusations that are being published in the press. And if he were to do so and outline on his site that he was going to continue to ”defy the restrictions from the powers that be” people would then have a clear choice to make.

  414. Petra

    @ Craig Murray says … ”I have been interested by the vitriol with which some on this site defend Nicola despite her continually kicking Indyref2 further and further into the long grass”.. ”But when precisely the same people start to support the arrest of Mannie Singh, that crosses a line and is absolutely unforgivable. Anybody who supports Mannie’s arrest is no part of the Independence movement.”

    Is that you back on with your SNP / Nicola Sturgeon Baad again? What we and she needs right now it to get support over the 50% mark. What about you using your site to help her to do so?

    And who exactly are the people on here who are supporting the arrest of Manny Singh? Care to point out who has actually said that? From what I can make out it’s the last thing that anyone on here wants to see happen.

    And by the way I didn’t see you apologise to me for stating that I had posted ”untrue” information on here about Manny Singh lying. Decided to just gloss over that one?

  415. Petra

    @ yesindyref2 says at 2:51 pm … Petra – 100,000 people went on the march, and I see no massive outpouring anywhere saying: “I don’t trust that Manny Singh”, just a half dozen people, that’s all.”

    Oh right. Well seeing that you don’t know everyone then Yesindyref2. My family, friends and colleagues extend into the hundreds and not one of them is happy about this. Far from it. There are also those who don’t access the Internet who will still have no idea of what’s going on.

    ”What I do see is photos all over the place, and outpourings of the march was great, nice to meet people, very positive. Plus some wishing they’d been able to get there but they were ill, were elsewhere, otherwise busy. The march was uplifting, a great tonic for those of us that needed one.”

    I TOTALLY agree with you but that can still be the case if there is more transparency on Manny Singh’s part, he cuts out the lying and the marches are carried out legally. I don’t see what’s not to like about that. How it can’t be done. What’s the problem? That would keep everyone happy, imo.

  416. ronnie anderson

    Craig Murray I’ve be one of the critics of Auob ,knowing Manny S & Neil McK & their duplicitous natures . They are both equally guilty of LYING to the Yes movement & inciting people to attend Auob marches when there is no need to incite People will turn out to show their support for Independence .

    Manny wont change , he’s that arrogant but I dont want to see innocent Yessers getting charged because the were told little white lies by organisers of Auob neither do I want to see Manny suffer the consequences of law for his arrogant actions .

  417. yesindyref2

    @Petra: “My family, friends and colleagues extend into the hundreds and not one of them is happy about this.

    I’m personally connected to the 4.1 million electorate of Scotland plus the tens of millions of the worldwide diaspora, and in a 10 second survey of them all, plus reading the entire interweb thingy, I found only 6 people who share your view.


  418. Cubby

    AUOB/Craig Murray

    All under one banner – and that includes people who think the law should be followed at all times. I’m not saying that is me and I don’t agree with Mannie Singh being arrested but I do understand other peoples point of view on this. It’s all under one banner or it is not. So no one should say they are not independence supporters – they hold a different point of view re adhering to the law. Apart from that I don’t remember anyone saying he should be arrested – so why say that?

    I repeat it’s either ALL under one banner or it’s go down the road of writing reasons to exclude people.

    Too much division after another great march in the great city of Glasgow.

  419. CameronB Brodie

    Well said Cubby.

    Time for a bit more cultural psychology? Humans share a “phenomenal conservatism”, which enables us to navigate through daily life without having to question and constantly prove the nature of everything to ourselves. Subsequently, we tend to perceive “dramatic social change” as a threat to our existence.

    The potential for Scottish independence and the full-English Brexit are both examples of such threats. However, only one of these scenarios can be described as democratic and in accordance with law and order. Only one of them threatens to unlock Scotland’s potential, as a nation. Spoiler, it isn’t the full-English Brexit.

    Toward a Psychology of Social Change: A Typology of Social Change

    ….The goal of the present paper is to argue that psychology needs to focus on the psychology of social change (de la Sablonnière et al., 2013; de la Sablonnière and Usborne, 2014). I argue that the bridge between the “macro” processes of social change and the “micro” processes of its psychological impacts have yet to be built. I suggest that social scientists must first focus on conceptualizing social change in a manner that includes both macro and micro processes in order to understand individuals’ adaptation to social change. Thus, as the first step in moving toward a psychology of social change, I target what is considered the most difficult challenge: conceptualizing social change.

    First and foremost, conceptualizing social change requires untangling the complexity of the topic by formulating a typology of social change (see Table 1). To that end, a large-scale meta-review that assembled original perspectives, theories and definitions of social change within both the sociological and psychological literature was performed. The typology of social change that emerged distinguishes four separate social contexts associated with social change: stability, inertia, incremental social change, and DSC. DSC, because of its frequency in today’s world, and because it is threatening to people, requires special attention. Thus, the proposed typology of social change drills deeper and articulates four necessary characteristics for a change or an event to be labeled as “dramatic social change”: rapid pace of change, rupture in social structure, rupture in normative structure, and threat to cultural identity.

    Finally, I come full circle by proposing a theoretical model that links together the four characteristics of DSC within the proposed typology of social change (see Figure 1). In sum, the typology of social change I am suggesting can be useful to create a theoretical consensus among researchers about what social change is that perhaps will allow for a coordinated, evidence based strategy to address the psychology of social change…..

  420. Petra

    @ yesindyref2 saysat 5:08 pm ….”Petra: “My family, friends and colleagues extend into the hundreds and not one of them is happy about this.”

    ”I’m personally connected to the 4.1 million electorate of Scotland plus the tens of millions of the worldwide diaspora, and in a 10 second survey of them all, plus reading the entire interweb thingy, I found only 6 people who share your views. *sigh*”

    You’re some guy, lol. You’d go down a treat working for a polling company. Unionist that is.

  421. Craig Murray

    I have no problem with anyone thinking Manny made mistakes. You are entitled to your opinion even if I do not share it.
    But those who think that Manny ought to be arrested, I have a very serious problem with indeed, and I repeat such should be no part of our movement. I have contempt for lickspittles.

  422. twathater


  423. Craig Murray


    It was great to meet you at last. It is of course perfectly open to Petra, Cubby, Legerwood et al to respond by saying they oppose the arrest of Manny Singh. That is the solidarity I would expect from any true Independence campaigner, and it is something you have said yourself. But I do not see them saying it.

  424. Liz g

    Craig Murray @ 6.08
    Then and for the third time of asking tell us who these people are that you came here to castigate and expell?
    They might not know they have to leave!!

  425. Liz g

    Craig Murray
    And for the avoidance of doubt I’d assert that, once is a mistake, twice is stupidity… and more than twice begins to look deliberate.

  426. Cubby


    I am not commenting to defend Mannie Singh as I do not know him obviously as well as others do. There is no doubt things could be better organised for the marches but the bottom line is that they are the ones spending their time and energy doing it and this should not be forgotten. So thanks AUOB.

    Did you go to the Stirling/ Bannockburn march because in my opinion that route was more likely to cause some sort of problem/ accident and that was the council I assume who wanted that. It is easy to assume that the council only has professional safety objectives when making its decisions when that may not be the case.

    I repeat from an earlier post – does anyone know why/who changed the Glasgow route to squeeze us through the bottle neck at Queen st station? That didn’t seem terribly wise.

    I do not think it is all one sided. Either the March organisers wholly at fault or the council wholly at fault.

    I agree that I don’t know all the ins and outs of the safety of marches – never said I do – expressing my personal opinion based on my personal attendance at the marches.

    All parties should be learning from this experience and last years experience at marches and working together for the safety of all who participate and those nearby.

  427. yesindyref2

    @Craig Murray
    You too. It’s great meeting people in person.

    I’d have liked to come for a pint with you and CBB, but was starting to wilt – and after the hospital thing, thought I’d best head for home.

    I daresay we’ll cross swords again – and paths 🙂

    And yeah, as Cubby says, thanks AUOB. Thanks a million 🙂

    And thanks Manny Singh for being prepared to put your liberty on the line. There was a certain Lawyer on that march …

  428. twathater

    Craig Murray , I enjoy your blogs and generally agree with a lot of your opinions , but on this occasion I feel you are being disrespectful and disingenuous to fellow independence supporters , everyone is ENTITLED to agree or disagree with M S actions we all have an opinion right or wrong .

    Manny has created a situation whereby his actions could have had and could still impact greatly on the ability to hold and enjoy these inclusive marches , undoubtedly there have been mistakes by both sides which should be lessons learned .And I agree that the establishment should be challenged to spurious reasons for objections , but people have to be protected and safe on the march . I have experience that the establishment can be deliberately obstructive when they oppose your aims but ways can and must be found to circumvent their opposition and it is not in anyone’s interest to create more division by name calling

  429. Cubby

    Craig Murray@6.15pm

    “But don’t see them saying it”

    As I am still taking the Herald “be nice pills” I will state quite nicely but clearly that I said many posts ago that it was wrong for the police to arrest him and I have said it on other posts since. I have consistently said that. I said it when I first heard about it and I said it in my post @5.09.

    So Craig you are wrong and have made an accidental mistake or you are on the wind up. Care to clarify? No need to apologise.

  430. CameronB Brodie

    re. the “dramatic social change” threatened by the potential for Scottish independence and the full-English Brexit. Only one of these scenarios involves the criminal hijacking of the British constitution. Only Brexitania threatens to be rather insular and illiberal in nature.

    Time for some “Transformative Social Innovation Theory”?

    Transformative change for an inclusive society
    Insights from social innovations and implications for policy innovation and innovation policy
    TRANSIT Working Paper # 9, March 2017


    Our societies experience challenges of inclusion and cohesion and suffer (evidently) from multiple problems associated with exclusion across economic, social, political and many other dimensions. The challenge of building more inclusive societies is recognised at highest policy levels. The Europe 2020 Strategy (EC, 2010) has smart, inclusive and sustainable growth as its overarching aim, for example. Yet, against the backdrop of a widening and intensifying set of inclusion challenges, conventional inclusion policies, until now based heavily around economic growth, skilling and full employment, struggle to make our societies more inclusive.

    In this context, it is insightful to look toward social innovation movements, several of which organise around agendas of inclusion and are critical of mainstream systems and policies, to see what they bring to societal discourse and action on the issues of in/exclusion. This is important especially in relation to mainstream systems that are under stress and struggle to deliver inclusivity, especially the market economy, social welfare systems, representative democracy, and workfare policies.

    Social innovations are being studied in the TRANSIT Project1, which aims to develop a theory of societally transformative social innovation. What insights do TRANSIT Project empirics offer into the potential of our studied social innovations to support transformative change toward more inclusive societies? What insights do they offer for innovation policies and inclusion policies? Can we improve our developing theory of social innovation in relation to transformative societal change by examining social innovation cases using the lens and probe of in/exclusion?

    Timebanking, participatory budgeting, basic income, Transit project, in/exclusion

  431. CameronB Brodie

    I enjoyed the pint (cheers Craig), but I missed the last bus back to Dundee (by 3mins) and had to shell out for an off-peak train-fair. Ouch.

  432. Hamish100

    Difficult issue re the March. Mind you if the march was to be held earlier who would tell the unionist crowd in George Square?
    If we left earlier the wee souls would have been there all alone.

    It would appear the Police chose the better side of valour by allowing the march to proceed. Hard to stop 100000 folk even for the Glesga polis. Still no trouble from us. It may be though the AUOB have to bring in fresh faces and who recognise the need to do things to the letter.

    The city council and police must also realise that they cannot change things at the last moment. I repeat last nights comment – why silence on their web pages?

    Still I hope no one ends up in trouble.

  433. Petra

    @ Hamish 100 (7:08) the City Council and Police didn’t change things at the last minute at all, as you’ll see from my subsequent post. It’s high time that some people opened their eye to what’s going on (not referring to you Hamish) and smelt the coffee.


    @ Capella says at 4:44 pm …”whoever was asking – the councillors are named in the minute of the GCC committee meeting. Ronnie posted the link earlier.It is an interesting read and, if accurate, shows the problems with Manny Singh’s handling of the application. Not that it justifies arrest IMO.”


    Thanks for reposting the GCC Report Capella. Interesting to see that Manny Singh submitted his application on the 16th January 2019, which was 14 weeks before the march was due to commence, not 7 months ago as per Craig Murray. Where / who was that information plucked from?

    The Report has also highlighted that Manny Singh had stated at that time on the application form that around 20,000 participants would be involved and that the Procession would take approximately 1 hour 15 minutes from start to finish. In January Manny Singh must have known that the was a load of old balderdash.

    Four weeks after the submission, on the 14th February, the Council contacted Manny Singh asking him to attend a meeting to discuss the proposal with Council Officers, Police and other stakeholders. The Council received no reply from Manny Singh and on the 18th February a further email, plus recorded delivery letter, was sent requesting attendance at the precursory meeting.

    On the 19th February 2019 Many Singh acknowledged the meeting request and confirmed that he (they) would attend the precursory meeting on Tuesday 5th March 2019.

    And it was at THAT meeting on the 5th March, not at the meeting on the 24th April, that Manny Singh informed the Police etc, that arrangements for the Procession had already been made and that the estimated numbers were expected to be around 100,000 not the 20,000 advised on the notification on 16/1/2019.

    Once again highlighting that Craig Murray (6 May, 2019 at 11:43 pm) is misinforming people on here by saying, ”Just a week before the march, Glasgow City Council demanded it be moved from 1.30pm to 11am. With people coming and buses booked from all over Scotland, it was not possible to make that change. The organisers viewed it as a deliberate effort to mess up the march, their being a long history of hostility from GCC officers toward Indy events (remember pretty well all the senior officers of the Council are surviving long term Labour party appointees).”

    In turn they informed MS on the 5th March 2019 that ”given this new information it was imperative that all conditions relative to the Policy and Code of Conduct were complied with and that to facilitate the Procession, accuracy in estimating the number of participants was crucial to Police Scotland in order to enable proportionate resourcing.”

    He was informed that to accommodate his now ”updated” estimated numbers they would be required to amend the timings to an 11.00am start rather than the notified 1:30pm. The earlier start would help to mitigate the resultant significant disruption caused to the whole of the City Centre.

    MS repeated that the Procession was already advertised and
    that they were unwilling to negotiate any significant change to the timing of the Procession, although they were prepared to vary the start time, potentially, to 1:00pm.

    The Police outlined their concerns about the increased numbers and that this would require further substantial resources. Scottish Fire & Rescue stated that given that the
    predetermined attendance for incidents in the City Centre is a minimum of 5 tenders from various stations, a Major Incident would have to be declared, to manage a response to any incident within the City Centre.

    It was also noted that MS, in compliance with the Policy and Code of Conduct, had intimated that the Procession will start and finish at a Public Park (namely Kelvingrove Park and Glasgow Green) and that permission to use applications had been submitted. However, given the history of AUOB’s previous failures to conform to Park rules, to apply for a temporary public entertainment licence, to comply with basic Health and Safety requirements, Environmental Health Controls or to provide a sufficiency of toilet facilities, they would only provide authority to assemble and disperse within the named parks.

    Again noted that MS had failed to respond to emails giving notice of the requirements in relation to ‘Permission to Use’ applications, which if observed and acted upon, would have potentially given the organiser of AUOB the authority to use Glasgow Green for the provision of the requested rally.

    Well there you go!

    Manny Singh intimated that AUOB had not received the emails from
    Neighbourhoods and Sustainability and advised that they would
    consider the rules laid out but that they would not be making any application for a licence, should that involve a cost. In terms of safety, MS was of the opinion that the Council should close all the roads on the route to allow the parade to proceed and that they were willing to submit a TTRO application, but again re-emphasised that the AUOB would not bear the cost of the application or any associated costs.

    The Police outlined the prohibitive cost of closing ”all the roads” and the impact it would have on motorway and the trunk road network.

    Manny Singh continued to state his opposition to any changes to the already published start time and advised all present that should the Council persist in its obstruction to the democratic rights of the Organisation, he would simply withdraw his application and cause the Procession to continue by anonymous social media posts, thereby removing any responsibility from the Organiser and the Organisation, All Under One Banner.

    Having been unable to reach agreement, the meeting was concluded
    and the Organiser was advised that the matter would be referred to a Public Processions Committee for determination.

    There’s more of course, but to sum it all up Manny Singh submitted an application form on the 16th January 2019 seriously downplaying the numbers he reckoned would attend the march and the time it would take to get from A to B. Then informed the Council etc on the 5th March that the numbers attending could be around 100,000 and that he wouldn’t change the starting time or route nine weeks before the event had to take place, not one week before as constantly put forward on this site. He ultimately went on to threaten the Council that if he didn’t get his way he would pull the application form and ensure that the event went ahead through him promoting it anonymously on social media. Now if that had been the case would he have informed us as to what was going on?

    And to think that GCC, the Police, Fire Service etc were all willing to oblige. All they were asking for was for the time and route to be changed nine weeks before the event. And we would have been at that stage much earlier, prior to 5th March, if Manny Singh hadn’t lied initially.

  434. Petra

    @ Craig Murray says at 6:15 pm …. ”It is of course perfectly open to Petra, Cubby, Legerwood et al to respond by saying they oppose the arrest of Manny Singh. That is the solidarity I would expect from any true Independence campaigner, and it is something you have said yourself. But I do not see them saying it.”

    You’re beginning to loose all credibility, Mr Murray, between one thing and another. A right mixer. I at NO time stated that I wanted to see Manny Singh being arrested and have reiterated this at 4:58pm. Over and above that I have outlined clearly what I would like to see Mr Singh do if he wants to continue as a trusted organisor. For a start off to stop lying, which seemingly encourages others to do likewise. Mr Singh by the way is not the b-all and end-all of the Independence movement. He wasn’t even the b-all and end-all of AUOB until he brokeaway and initiated another AUOB company, so we can see from that example how people can just come and go.

    How we complain about the MSM propaganda and them we’ve got you, Mr Murray, who could surely teach them a thing or two.

  435. Liz g

    Petra @ 8.41
    Thanks for laying out all the information Petra and I agree with every word.
    I can only add in anticipation,of more nonsense,that Manny Sing and AUOB are also very well aware that Holyrood Park like every other Historic Scotland monument cannot get permission for an event to be held if there is No Event insurance.
    Historic Scotland insist upon it.
    This is the remit from Holyrood Ministers that Historic Scotland are obliged to follow… No Exception….
    This is the real reason we did not get and could not have had permission to use that park last year!
    That bit was conveniently left on of their “wee white lie for the greater good”
    They knew it then and they know it now…And come the Edinburgh March this year so do we..
    And anyone who doubts it can phone up and ask Historic Scotland themselves.

  436. Hamish100

    Petra and others

    Thanks for the clarity. The marches are fantastic but no one should expose the “cause” to possible complaint and to divert attention which suits the unionist press.

    Not criticising all the work in organising such events but the good will and faith of others may have been damaged in the short term. What happens next?

  437. yesindyref2

    At that 5th March meeting Singh was asked to change the time, he refused. No decisions were made at that 5th March meeting, there was no authority for anyone to actually make decision, only advise. It was stated that the recommendations would be put forward to the processions committee, which it was in a report. THAT meeting was on 24th April at 10.00, and the minutes are very very scanty:

    After having heard
    (1) M Miller, Head of Licensing and Democratic Services, in further explanation of the report and who made representations regarding the risks to public safety, and disruption to the life of the local community in relation to the proposed route and time of the procession submitted by the organisation;
    (2) Superintendent S Hazlett, Police Scotland, Group Manager B Winter, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and D Hamilton, for the Executive Director of Neighbourhoods and Sustainability; and
    (3) Mr M Singh, on behalf of All Under One Banner, in support of the proposed route,

    the committee agreed
    (a) that the procession proceed on Saturday, 4th May 2019; and
    (b) to impose the following conditions:-

    (i) that the Procession will assemble in Kelvingrove Park at 1000 hours and start at 1100 hours; and
    (ii) the outward route to be taken shall be
    Kelvingrove Park, Kelvin Way, Sauchiehall Street, Pitt Street, West George Street, Blythswood Square, West George Street, Nelson Mandela Place, West George Street, George Square, George Street, High Street, Saltmarket, Glasgow Green

    The 24th April was just 1 and a half weeks before the march, and it was as THAT meeting the decision was made, NOT the one back on March 5th – that one was an advisory meeting only.

  438. yesindyref2