An inexplicable coincidence
So anyway. Alert readers will have noticed by now that we’ve had a poll out, and earlier today we finally got the full data tables in.
It’s going to take us a while to fully analyse everything (though we’ve dropped a few tantalising snippets on our Twitter account, which many of you are now stylish enough to follow), but we’re going to start with a theme we return to often in our polls – trust.
Rather than focusing on individual outlets (a plan flawed by the fact that only a tiny percentage of the Scottish population reads even the most popular newspapers or watches political shows), this time around we decided to ask in which very broad areas people got their information about the independence debate.
———————————————————————————————————
Q: Generally speaking, which of the following sources of information about the independence debate would you say you personally considered the most trustworthy when thinking about how you’ll vote?
(Choose up to three.)
TV: 57%
Online sources (websites and social media): 40%
Newspapers: 34%
Friends and family: 32%
Official representatives of Yes/No campaigns in person: 26%
Radio: 20%
———————————————————————————————————
The basic results here were quite interesting in themselves. As the BBC more or less has a monopoly on national radio (certainly in terms of dealing with politics), and also generally higher audience figures for current affairs shows than TV, coming a distant last is a real slap in the face for the state broadcaster.
Its performances have been under widespread attack of late, whether from academia, the public or its own former employees, and a score of 20% in a six-option poll where you could choose three out of the six is a truly dismal performance.
The station’s flagship show, Good Morning Scotland, must take a large share of the blame for what many have seen as deeply biased displays by parachuted-in presenter James Naughtie, regularly accused of haranguing Yes guests while giving their No counterparts a far easier ride.
But the stats get much more intriguing when you break them down.
———————————————————————————————————
YES SUPPORTERS
TV: 46%
Online: 45%
Official representatives: 33%
Friends and family: 32%
Newspapers: 28%
Radio: 17%
———————————————————————————————————
Perhaps the only big surprise there is that TV still narrowly comes out on top, fractionally edging out the internet. Were we to make a guess as to why we might imagine that at least on TV you normally get to see politicians etc interviewed for yourself, rather than having them filtered through the spin of commentators, but that wouldn’t explain radio doing even worse than it did in the full sample.
———————————————————————————————————
NO SUPPORTERS
TV: 66%
Newspapers: 40%
Online: 35%
Friends and family: 30%
Radio: 23%
Official representatives: 18%
———————————————————————————————————
Now there’s a thing. No shock that newspapers are the second most-trusted source by Unionists (given that, as we know, not a single Scottish newspaper openly supports independence), but we were a little nonplussed by the high showing for the internet, given the near-total absence of major No websites.
Most striking, though, was the bottom-of-the-pile finish for official campaign representatives, at barely half of the trust rating Yes supporters showed. But perhaps we shouldn’t be taken aback by that, because our previous polls have consistently shown that even among their own supporters, prominent “Better Together” figures like Blair McDougall are massively distrusted.
———————————————————————————————————
UNDECIDED
TV: 55%
Online: 43%
Friends and family: 40%
Official representatives: 30%
Newspapers: 29%
Radio 24%
———————————————————————————————————
The list for undecided voters almost exactly mirrors that for Yes ones, with only the two middle entries swapping over. Don’t Knows don’t believe a word in the newspapers or on the radio, and place far more trust in websites, social media, family and friends.
So we’re beginning to form a pretty clear overall picture. The No camp will probably be pleased that TV is still widely trusted, but concerned that newspapers and radio are far less powerful than the internet and word-of-mouth, and probably used to the fact that their figureheads and “grassroots” voices are largely seen as sources of untruth.
Yes Scotland, on the other hand, will have the exact opposite feelings, but they’ll be encouraged that the profile of undecided voters is considerably closer to that of Yes supporters than No ones – and also by the fact that we’ll be seeing a lot more of that phenomenon as we go through the rest of the results.
Now, if only we could figure out why almost nobody trusts newspapers.
I think these results, show the start of a nation finally
coming to grips with the fact they have been had and that its possible to find the truth or to at least look for it.
One thing is for sure, “parachuted-in presenter James Naughtie” doesnt give a hoot what anyone thinks of his vote NO bias. This is the core of what bettertogetherBBC power is, do as we say Scotland.
Two thoughts initially:
One, just because people say they get information “online” doesn’t necessarily mean they know about any pro-indy sites at all. They may just get most of their news from MSM newsites and have Facebook, Twitter and RSS types feeds filled up with celebrity or work-related news. So that wouldn’t necessarily translate to higher support for independence.
And two, does anyone really listen to the radio anymore? With a whole world of internet radio stations to stream and DAB and the rest, are there really a lot of people who turn on BBC news? Genuine question – I have no idea what listening figures are like. It just seems quaint and odd to me.
@ Cath, I listen to bettertogetherBBC’s Good Morning Scotland radio farce from 6am Scotland time, if only to be amazed at the staggering UKOK bias they pimp out daily. And yes I mean pimp not pump. Lowest Naughty UKOK propaganda display was the Darling no currency share scaremongering cunning plan that Naughty and co clearly decided was the indy destroyer, the big dopes.
I suspect the high rating for internet on No side is a lot of Facebooking etc. Just getting a lot of reinforcement of personal views rather than looking at the wider debate. (I’m sure that will be the same for a lot of yessers too) The difference with the don’t knows is that they will be deliberately seeking out the wider debate and that’s where yes has a wealth of info, opinion and range that No just doesn’t have.
@Cath.
I have Radio Scotland on all day at work. Shouting at the radio helps the day pass quicker.
Interestingly it appears that the supporters of NO are those least inclined to believe official representatives. I find this quite surprising after all when you talk to NO supporters the guff they produce sounds like it comes straight from NO.
There again as most people comment the good old BBC is seen as being very pro union and the mouthpiece of NO so I guess it isn’t so surprising after all because as we all know BBC just spouts out whatever the official reps of NO say anyway.
Cath: the questions were formulated to convey that “websites” meant non-commercial ones, and the results reflect what you’d expect to get for that. And the likes of GMS actually have far bigger audiences than TV shows like Newsnight Scotland and Scotland Tonight, precisely because people can listen to them casually on the way to work and suchlike.
Cath, I have a couple of Internet radios, one on a big amp so I listed to internet Radio all day, mostly Manx Radio as its not the BBC!!! However I discovered a Led Zep Internet Radio channel on Saturday and I must confess I have had Zeppelin blazing out for all the street to hear since then 🙂
But your right, not many will be finding WOS, for example nearly every house on Arran should have got an Aye Right leaflet with a recent drop. If other local YES campaigns throughout Scotland can get the Aye Right leaflets through the doors it will make a difference.
Just shows the power of the broadcast media – Westminster weren’t daft when they refused to devolve broadcasting.
If existing No supporters are predominantly reliant on TV, I wonder if “soft” Nos will notice a difference when broadcasters enter the 16 week official campaign period?
The Yes campaign message will get stronger.
Back in dear old Snatcher Thatcher’s heyday, BBC Scotland radio was fantastic and yet now its a national joke. And all from their brand new £500 million sparkly box of NO on the sparkly Clyde.
On the basis of that, and with the fundraising campaign having gone so well, are you considering some strategic TV ad spots for Wings?
I don’t think you should dismiss the significance of the time of day that such obvious Unionist bias is broadcast. Early morning broadcasts are received by a rested brain ready to ‘accept’ new information (it is the right side of the brain that gathers info and the left hemisphere that decides what info is to be retained or rejected – this is the neurological mechanism that brings about cognitive dissonance).
If you are rushing to get yourself to work and kids to school, your critical faculties will not be focused on analysing what comes out of the radio. You are therefore, more likely to accept it as truth and add it to you world picture. Especially if the source is the apparently trustworthy BBC. Later on in the day, you are less distracted yet more tired, so you will be less likely to accept any info.
Archived odds list pick a date.
link to archive.is
Today 7/4/2014
link to archive.is
Rev, what chance the low ratings for radio reflect folk’s listening habits rather than any particular distrust of BBC Radio? Most, I’m sure listen to music stations and only hear politics mentioned in passing during news bulletins on the hour. They would rate radio low for trust on indyref matters simply because they don’t listen to it for that.
To be honest, Rev, the TV probably will come out on top in every poll.
When you think about it, it’s the first thing that usually gets switched on when folk finally settle down after getting home from work, and if it’s around 6pm, then most folk want to catch the news. In amongst all the usual day’s events, there will be the odd snippet about ‘Cameron did this, UK economy doing great, First Minister, Alex Salmond accused of that, Scottish Government implementing this, blah, blah …so in some ways, it is not too much of a surprise.
The one good thing that should be said though …most folk don’t trust the mainstream media, nor the papers (and with the papers, they think it’s full of meaningless, brainless garbage anyway! I mean, ‘And here we have Kelly Brook at last night’s awards; Old Firm star caught with new bird; the world’s fattest puppy; X-Factor star caught cheating! Simon Cowell with new baby on beach ….it’s all nonsense. Most folk who buy these papers aren’t buying it for Politics …and if they can decipher any decent fact from The Sun, the Record, or the Mail, then well done to them!
Chris: remember the people we poll are people politically engaged enough to have signed up with polling companies, which deal largely with political stuff.
Right Rev. That’s enough abuse for one day. Post any more and I’m ‘phoning the polis!
Really surprised at the level of trust amongst Yes supporters for TV coverage. As they say, you learn something new everyday.
Interesting breakdown by referendum preference. Would like to see the breakdown by trusted source, so one can see the referendum preferences of those using different sources.
I’ve been listening to radio Scotland for many years and it has become a mouthpiece for the NO campaign! Take heart though! Why! They are continually advertising themselves now , so something is wrong! I sent them a text today probably John Beattie show complaining about having to pay the license when they advertise themselves. They are not supposed to advertise anything! They never read my texts out now! Shame! Hope they get the message!!
O/t signed an online petition today to get Maria Miller sacked! Hope it happens!
Like the House of Lords, the unelected, unaccountable, but paid for by the public BBC, push their own agenda on the voters.
remember the people we poll are people politically engaged enough to have signed up with polling companies, which deal largely with political stuff.
They poll about all sorts of stuff from gadgets to gardening. In that sense I don’t think online pollsters are more likely to get more politically motivated people. People with an interest in filling out surveys for some cash who have access to an internet enabled device yes, but I don’t think this correlates with any particular political leaning.
Polls are giving really high numbers for ‘likely to vote’. I’m wary about this. Given that a lot more people say they voted in 2011 than did (this is common in all polls), when they say ‘I’m definitely voting’ I’m not sure I’d take their word for it.
Rev – have you got the full base numbers for Y/N? So far the tables just give 8-10 likely numbers. I’m following full base. 8-10 often gives the impression of a higher No. For example, the Newsnet was 38.2 Y / 42.0 N a gap of 3.8 points not the 5 reported.
BBC Scotland News this evening:
What is the point of James Naughtie ?? – he can’t hide his delight at Americans not showing much interest in Scottish Independence referendum.
No wonder with a totally boring snooty, ill informed but very biased reporter like you James.
Remind me James are they voting in the ref, relevance ??
Jeez easy money for a jaunt.
Mind you a, “Goodly Proportion” of the radio listeners and TV viewers will watch and listed to totally mindless pap. We have hundreds of stations and channels pumping out utter crap 24/7/365. Add that to the abysmal language and reading skills of that same, “Goodly Proportion”, many of who stopped learning in Primary 2, and the chances of penetrating the inner fog is very, very small. Now I’m not saying these people are stupid – just uneducated and ignorant. When your prospects are bleak and your total ambitions centre upon making it big as a pop-singer or a, “Celeb”, on, “Big-Brother”, there really isn’t much incentive to understand even basic political matters.
I think I can explain the low ratings for radio.
Most political interviews are done really early like around seven, eight at the latest. Thereafter all you get is edited clips and commentator spin which gets more and more twisted throughout the day.
I have now stopped listening to much radio as the edited clips and comments raise my blood pressure too much.
Can just picture the headlines in the days after yes wins,papers will be worth keeping. 🙂
If Better Together supporters massively distrust, their leading politicians, why on earth do they believe a word they say against independence, are they so deluded, that they’d rather cut of their noses off to spite their faces, where the interest of Scots is concerned.
I must admit I’m rather pleased that even though a high percentage of voters get their information through the medium of tv, that YES is gaining in the polls regardless of their relentless scaremongering and false representations.
Did anyone hear Notty on R4 this morning?
Sounded like he was reading a fairy tale.
Back to the studio and the gang were getting all BBC with their descriptions of how funny it was that Notty would be furious at the use of bagpipes in the story.
Utterly boak inducing. That sort of thing fairly wakes me up in the morning. I am paying great attention to it and I never forget it.
Being in the same mindset as a Bitter must be a punishment for ills in a previous life.
There’s a BBC Scotland jingle which is repeated all day, with Naughtie sternly quoting Osborne’s statement on CU. “It’s… not… going… to happen.”
No alternative statement or balance. They’re not even trying to hide their shame.
Anyone noticed, how’s John Smith’s daughter shaping up?
If Better Together supporters massively distrust, their leading politicians, why on earth do they believe a word they say against independence, are they so deluded, that they’d rather cut of their noses off to spite their faces, where the interest of Scots is concerned.
Do Unionists need to believe the nonsense that comes from Better Together and the BBC/MSM? It does not challenge their core identity, which feels comfort as part of the remnant, post-modern British empire.
These people do not appear to live in the real world of today, let alone consider tomorrow, so the normal rules governing cognitive dissonance may not apply. 🙂
Chris: remember the people we poll are people politically engaged enough to have signed up with polling companies, which deal largely with political stuff.
What scottish_skier said, with the additional reminder that Panelbase have only started doing political polling comparatively recently and done very little outside Scotland and North East England. So very few will have joined up expecting to do anything except consumer polls and the like. In addition, because of criticism that their panel might be being packed with evil cybernats, they announced that they will not be polling anyone who joined their panel after June 2013 on Indy issues.
What is true however is that people who join such panels are more likely to be engaged full stop. They are more likely to have views on washing powder and politics, life insurance and independence. This also means they are more likely to vote than average. YouGov asked a sample of Scottish members of their panel late on polling day if they had voted in 2011. 87% said they had compared to 50% of the population in general. Similarly 79% from across Britain said they had voted in the AV referendum, compared to 42% generally.
This explains the very high proposed turnout in the referendum that puzzles scottish_skier. Panel members simply are more likely to vote average, because the disengaged, alienated and uninterested are always going to be under-represented in polls. And at the polling station.
Point 1 – the poll is amongst folk who self select – and as far as I can discern there is an incentive.
Point 2 – many women I know combine the above point with more consumer orientated stuff.
Point 3 – the reports of more people than ever registering to vote would suggest a hidden demographic.
Point 4 – the people in the poll are a lot more normal than us.
Point 5 – Wings over Scotland is the best site for squirrels.
Why do the yes side when they are constantly interrupted on TV or radio Not say do not be so rude show some manners when you ask a question have the decency to let me answer I notice you have not interrupted the no supporters this will speak volumes about you and lack of fair play to any fair listiner or viewer so do not just sit there and take from them do something it is nice to be nice but it is daft to be soft. Vote ye
This does not necessarily say that radio is untrustworthy. Without a qualifier of whether people asked actually listen to the radio at all (and if so what station) it may just say that more people get their news from other sources. …. Apologies if there was a unpublished question asking which outlets people use beforehand.
@Gordoz 6:55
Maybe JoLa should start asking BBC how much their reporters spend on their accounts when following the FM around?
It also occurred to me that JN was in control of all aspects of street interviews he “conducted”. It wouldn’t be too difficult for him to bin all the ones where an interest was shown.
What? Me? Cynical? Naw!
Re. pollsters and the incomplete pictures they paint. Perhaps it isn’t a surprise the Japanese press appears to have twigged to what is happening too Scotland. The Japanese atheistic of Wabi-sabi still has a strong cultural influence. The Japanese words honne and tatemae also spring to mind. These describe the difference between one’s inner beliefs and those that you choose to outwardly express.
Put these together and the Japanese know that appearance does not always reflect underlying substance. Beauty is only true if there is no internal conflict with harmony. Or something like that. 🙂
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
test
@heedtracker
BBC Scotland or the BBC, DON’T own Pacific Quay. It is on a 30 year lease and costs us about £8 Million pounds a year on rent. Plus we pay for all the monkeys inside it.
It costs us a fortune to cover the costs of all the daily lies and propaganda that pours out the place.
James Naughtie went all the way to America (at our expense) to the same city and the same parade as the First Minister of Scotland, yet for some reason, couldn’t find Alex Salmond to let us know his thoughts on how his trip to America was progressing. Strange!
Remember the new BBC slogan :-
“IF YOU DON’T PAY MY WAGES, THEN YOU WILL GO TO JAIL”
OT for this thread.I’ve noticed in the last couple of years,3 titles being left on the rack of supermarkets/newsagents.The Scotsman,The Telegraph and,for considerably longer than 3 years,The Daily Mail.
It’s just as well Westminster don’t check Scottish readership of their favoured propaganda vehicles.Anyone got stats on their sales numbers?
i dont get any tv reception, not since they upgraded the local transmitter to digital, before that i got 3 and a half channels, now i get bugger all, i have found a site which broadcasts bbc 1 scotland live, tv catchup, but i relie on the contributers on this page for most of the links to whats happening in the world. I watch newsnicht scotland 3 or 4 days after it is uploaded but even the kids dont want sattelite, they think tv is last century stuff
ps, i dont get mobile reception either(thanks goodness) and the only radio i get is radio tay, i do however listen to the bbc links which are posted here. but since derek bateman has been given the hoof, less so
@Roger Mexico
Yes, people saying they voted is around 10% higher in panelbase compared to TNS which is not self selecting (unweighted bases).
As for Yougov. Don’t trust it much. 2235 weighted sample of the Scottish base for migration watch:
Yougov / 2011 census (yougov error)
18% / 10% (+8%) British citizen, born in the rest of UK (not Scotland)
74% / 83% (-9%) British citizen, born in Scotland
Not demographically representative. That can hand up to 8% to no just like that. These are big errors. Really big. Country of birth / nat ID is the biggest factor in indy leanings.
And as for ‘Labour 2010 SNP 2011’. Eh? You have:
– ~6% Supported SNP but voted Labour in 2010 tactically to stop the Tories and that was stupid as it failed. Voted SNP in 2011
– ~5% Supported SNP but voted Lib Dem in 2010 tactically which helped the Tories. Voted SNP in 2011. So angry and ashamed at my 2010 lib dem vote.
– ~10% Was leaning to SNP in 2009 but stuck with Labour in 2010 in the hope of stopping the Tories but that went tits up so voted SNP in 2011.
– ~5% Voted Lib in 2010 only to discover I helped the Tories so voted SNP in 2011.
No wonder they get weird results, including for VI.
O/T so sorry, I’ll be quick.
Stu, have you got any connections to the headphones industry?
schrodingers cat
You’ll be in Rannoch[or thereabouts]then.
posted from darkest fife,
ps, dont let westminster block immigration
i dont want my kids marrying each other:)
Aaah…Methven?
lol@goldenayr
Anytime kid.
@Robert Peffers Its a bit high and mighty of you to judge people because they watch telly and to extrapolate that into the meaning of their lives. That’s the kind of ‘pop’ psychology shite we get on the Jeremy Kyle Show
@Scottish_skier
To me, the surprise in this poll was the NO vote actually went up a point.
Any figures jumping out at you for the reason why??
sneddon
Aye,but he’s got a point.
Any figures jumping out at you for the reason why??
Likely just MoE. This poll and the one before are very close together. You could have a 3 point shift easily and it might not show up.
Also, this is 8-10 likely which can accentuate figures as it reduces the base. I’m hoping to see the full base figures at some point.
–/ Nudges Rev again… /–
Bbc Scot news 6.30,was it Jim Naughtie presenting a 3min piece on Tartan Week New York ( there,s not many people on 6th Ave talking about Scottish Independence)DoH yer in America ya clown, Bbc at their best wasting Licence fees.
Good Grief Ronnie!
Are you on dial up?
I’ll repost this tomorrow if you are.
Did anyone else pick up what Stu said on Twitter about having some pretty reliable (though unverifiable) information to the effect that a large trade union conducted a poll a week or two ago that was never released because it showed a majority for Yes? I can’t remember which pollster now because I can’t find the tweets – Stu may have deleted his. Might have been YouGov, even.
If this is true, it might explain a lot about the unionist panic. They’re certainly not behaving like a campaign in the lead. I mean, compare and contrast that interview with Darling and Marr, and the one with the FM in the USA. Both were soft-ball affairs, but whereas the FM came over genial, relaxed and likeable, Darling came over tetchy and spooked.
I think the worrying thing about MSM (TV and papers) is that although many people may say they don’t believe the information is impartial or they don’t trust it, it’s remarkable the drip drip effect. My cousin in Channel Islands, for example, was totally against Scottish independence, trotted out most of the stories given prominence/advertising space by MSM (with none of the rebuttals you can find online), and in response to my question about how much he trusted the media, he said of course he didn’t trust the media. Kind of left the question hanging – where did you get your ideas from pal?
@caz-m – I think the sermon on the pound and the guff from Standard Life et al is the reason for the rise in No but isn’t it strange that the rise is so small when Flipper thought his tactic would send No through the roof
Gordoz at 6.55 –
I have suspicions that Mr Knotty and his chums headed off to the Big Apple in search of citizens who would talk down Scottish independence (the BBC have form for this sort of thing).
When they found no-one to play his game (New Yorkers are an intelligent and cosmopolitan lot), they had to fall back on the “nobody cares” bullshit. Why should Americans care? They already have their independence.
Morag
Darling isn’t he always? ;-]
I reckon Wings,in co-operation with other pro-indy websites should consider advertising on Scottish commercial radio.
According to the industry, radio has ‘low ad avoidance‘
Statistics.
link to onadvertising.co.uk
I have no idea how much a ten second ad would cost, but shared, it might just be the way to get to listeners.
Worth investigatiing?
I hear the BBC is planning to replace Naughtie with a new upcoming reporter…what’s his name again…mmmm oh yeh it’s Kev Milne think he’s from Edinburgh bound to be as impartial as oor Jim..
@goldenayr
Ronnie has his very own satellite beaming thoughts directly into the head of everybody in Scotland. Only Ronnie and me are unaffected, our reality is not the same as your reality.
Hmmm…
link to img.archive.is
😉
Thepnr
On another note,our reality is subjective.Therefore making it inherently suspect.And on another note,our reality is perspective making it entirely subjective.And on another note,our thinking is entirely pejorative…which takes us to here.
@ caz-m, its an awfull lot of money to be told Scottish democracy is not going to happen and by postly old men like Naughty and co.
Nation Shall Speak Peace Unto Nation but Scotland isn’t a nation and never will be if we have anything to do with it.
BBC in Scotland crest motto. Catchy eh?
Schroedinger’s Cat
Falkland?
@Croompenstein
I also think that this up and coming meeting with the “Three Amigos” (Osborne, Balls and Alexander) at the Scottish Affairs Committee will be fascinating. They are going to tell us once again that we will not be part of any currency union.
Following the news yesterday that there was no evidence of any such meetings taking place with any advisors from the UK treasury prior to the Osborne visit to Edinburgh.
Are the three of them going to sit there and repeat what turned out to be a vote loser for them.
The Scottish public saw through that lie and they will not accept the same bullshit story from these three comedians.
It will add up to more people turning to YES, especially the Scottish Labour voter.
@caz-m – When are they up in front of the Chairchoob?, they probably won’t be pressed on anything just given free reign to spout their pish
caz-m
You’ve got a point.Maybe anyone in Dannys constituency could email him and ask that be brought up in the questions.
P.S.
Please get rid of the – in your name.Cheers
@goldenayr
Took a second to figure out what you were meaning.
Will try and make the “-” disappear. LOL
@goldenayr
Hozat! No “-“.
caz
No hidden meanings in anything I say to friends.
Cheers
@Croompenstein
Link below to Scottish Affairs Committee meeting with the three amigos.
No date when it is, maybe this week, would need to find out.
If anyone knows the date of this meeting then please put it up. TA!
link to parliament.uk
“@caz-m – When are they up in front of the Chairchoob?, they probably won’t be pressed on anything just given free reign to spout their pish”
I think the SNP lady member who bully boy Davidson threatened with a “doin” still boycotts the Committee because that character is still there. Pity, I’m sure she wouldn’t have missed that three with her interrogation.
@sneddon, ” Its a bit high and mighty of you to judge people because they watch telly and to extrapolate that into the meaning of their lives”.
Now, Sneddon, where do I do that? You have added 2+2 and totalled 5. I spoke of those who watch and listen and watch and listen to nothing but,“The pap”, and who have no interest, or knowledge, of anything else but the pap.
I even stated they are not stupid but only totally disinterested, ignorant, (That’s ignorant as in, “do not know”,) and without incentive to be anything else. You can find them any day in any place in our country. The deprived, disengaged, disappointed dumped by the system that has rejected them.
It is not for old farts like me that we need Scottish Independence. We old guys have ran our course and will soon be gone. It is for those who have been rejected by the system but who have their lives still to lead. They it is who need a better, richer and more fair Scotland. Let us give it to them.
S_S
Never can figure out the cryptic ones. I keep telling myself not to post after drinking, but in my defence at least a glass went into the risotto.
The bookies set the odds according to the amount of money taken. They start with the initial figures which the odds compilers have come up with, or with which the odds compilers have come up, or up with which they will not put, or have come. Aah, at last.
Their only concern is to make a profit, so they have an overround, which is the %age profit they make on the outcome, whatever the result.
Don’t read too much into the absolute figures. As you have told us repeatedly, it is the trend which is important.
Get the Chairchoob! –
Ian Davidson MP, Chair of the Committee, said: “The Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democratic parties have all said no to a currency union in the event of separation. The Scottish First Minister says they are all ‘bluffing’, which presumably is a euphemism for ‘lying’
oh yeh…
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@Arel –
Someone in the weekend papers (or was it Bateman?) was dropping heavy hints that the SNP ought to get that empty seat filled pronto. Not sure if they can replace the SNP member Davidson threatened, or if she’d reconsider, but her return would certainly bring a certain frisson to proceedings.
Davidson runs away from ordinary citizens on Glasgow Green – down there, he must feel safe.
Maybe some of you tweeters, the more sophisticated types, can source this tweet.
@HulmeSh: @AlexSalmond I hope you get shot
Robert Peffers
I think you are describing the latent pool of dislocation and despair, that neocons so readily turn to fear and perpetual war.
@ Blair paterson 7:43
“Why do the yes side when they are constantly interrupted on TV or radio Not say do not be so rude?”
Caller on Morning Call last week: “I do apologise Louise. I carried on talking while you were interrupting me.”
Brotyboy
Aye right…”I don’t post after drinking”.Still trying to the decipher bookies guff that you apparently understand.
Ian Brotherhood
Not only would it be crass and vile politics,it would also sully the voice of who occupied it.More thought,less typing
@goldenayr
Yer a laugh a minute so you are 🙂
Thepnr
Make it a mile and you’ve got a deal.
@alexicon – I’ll finish the sentence – Alex Salmond I hope you get shot..of these imperialist parasites and their horrendous WMD
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LOL
@CameronB says:“I think you are describing the latent pool of dislocation and despair, that neocons so readily turn to fear and perpetual war”.
Got it in one. CameronB – It breaks my heart to see all those hopeless, wasted lives of our, often not so young, Scots. I’ve managed to reach out and drag a few back from total despair. Not nearly enough, though.
Say it xiau Tu.
I’ve lost a lot of the finer prose in you translation.
@Brotyboy
Sorry, just watching more and more money being put on a yes which has caused a further shortening of the odds someone in concert today. Fun mainly.
I don’t believe that the bookies are mystics, but odds can provide clues as to mood of the public. I’d love to see data for Scotland only. All we have for this is the ICM wisdom index which showed people in Scotland felt from personal experience it was neck and neck some time ago now.
link to www1.politicalbetting.com
The money goes on Scotland voting for independence and YES reaches its highest point on Betfair
@Capella
Caller on Morning Call last week: “I do apologise Louise. I carried on talking while you were interrupting me.”
I heard that as well, absolute classic!
I wasn’t talking to you, it was a message for ronnie.
@scottish_skier –
That’ll be Ronnie’s Raffle £76 that tipped it.
@Thepnr –
Nice one at 10.21 – it’s a coded transcription of two minutes’ worth of Darling facial ticks, right?
FFS Scotland tonight, Wilson and some tosser talking crap. Apparently according to some professor the USA don’t like countries breaking away from good ol England, he had to be reminded that the USA broke away from good ol England Wilson wittering on about how we will not be able to sell whisky in Abroadia if were Independent.
Funny that the link to the Pro YES person in the USA has broken down…. I wish STV had a licence fee so I could stop paying that as well…
What a pile of crap on STV just now… disgusting one sided propaganda bullshit.
Technical difficulties my arse!!!
@Alexicon: I saw that tweet a number of times, it has been re-tweeted a lot. It was from a guy called Simon Hulme, he has been apologising for it all day.
link to twitter.com
When is someone from the NO sode going to explain HOW we are better in the union?
They constantly and persistantly say so… again… again and again… but give zip zero nada nil examples of it.
Wake up Scotlamd.
I’m accidentally watching Scotland Tonight. Brian Wilson has just claimed no one would buy Scotch Whisky post Independence. This is my new favourite Project Fear claim. Inspired.
Oops… wish I could edit my typing!
…just furious tbh !!!
FFS Brian Wilson on STV Scotland Tonight, reminding viewers that Scotland will be an absolute basket case if it leaves the UK.
Ian Murray on now, trying to save Hearts FC, no mention of “Stickergate”
STV really scraping the bottom of the barrel lookin for “guests”
@jingly jangly –
‘I wish STV had a licence fee so I could stop paying that as well…’
Ha!
Great idea. We should launch a campaign to have the licence fee doubled so that commercial broadcasters can have a share of it, then refuse to pay it before it’s even started.
I suppose Mr Salmond will report this threat and ‘monstering’ to the authorities..oh no that’s right Mr Salmond has more class in his little finger than all the bleeting bitters combined, thank God he never tweeted Flipper the alarms would be going and lights flashing on EBC news and the infamous 37
Sorry pnr I was elsewhere.
Dang!It doesn’t type reunes.
What has gone wrong with Scotland Tonight! Absolutely dreadful! I’m finished with it. It couldn’t get any worse , could it?
Right lets get a few things straight.
STV complicit in the UK state position, absolutely shocking one sided bullshit and using No side yesterday 2 faced Labour loyalist Wilson for propaganda of anti independence guff. John MacKay nobody believes this orchestrated technical fault shit anymore and your up to your neck in it if you dont distance yourself from the process to brainwash Scots.
Apologies on air dont cut it John, YES side did not get a fair shout.
We dont give as hit about Hearts or their wee Liar spokesman Murray.
No Tech faults when covering the convict wife of a convict MP in England. FFS who cares.
Get Prof John Robertson onto this crap; seriously bias obvious and getting out of hand.
Ah well that’s me finished with STV as well, I was getting fed up having to go to a neighbours to watch live telly anyway 🙂
Gordoz… when have we ever seen a technical fault on the unionist guest?
The polls show them that they are in trouble and they are now moving to desparation…. that is what that was… pure desparation.
If you think that was bad tonight on Scotland Tonight, just wait till the next STV poll comes out.
John Mackay, is under strict orders from Better Together to boom out the poll result at the end of the six o’clock news and boom it out again on Scotland Tonight.
For some reason, they continue using these poll results as a true marker of Scottish public opinion, but as Scottish_skier will verify, the company they use is a joke pollster.
I’ve been saying for over a year now that John Mackay and STV are a nasty wee unionist double act.
Everyone should complain, about Scotland Tonight , on their Facebook page.
I meant Scotland Tonight’s Facebook page! Sorry!
link to twitter.com This is great although probably about to be photo bombed by Jim Naughty with a giant union jack!
Hope Salmond goes on the Daily Show too, as they rip the shit out of Morning Joe all the time. Daily Show had Pele on last Thursday and they really are progressive liberal in ways that would be unthinkable with hideous teamGB meeja.
lol. Unease in Europe over Scottish independence? Are you trying to say Europe is afraid of a democratically arranged and agreed referendum?Other places in Europe don’t have any agreements with their central governments.
Scaremongering again on telly.
Done two complaints so far…
Im looking forward to tomorrow on here… because tonights TV is so much material to work with, Stu must think its’ Christmas morning.
Newsnight Scoltand & Heralds Leask talking about seperatists & Nationalists being hated across Europe through gritted teeth, with 2 experts agreeing Scotland will get hard time from everybody cause they only love the UK particularly the french they just love the UK and not so much the Scots.
FFS Prof John Roberston, hope you were watching.
BBC back to their old tricks.
BBC Scotland Newsnight about the EU and Scotland’s membership was just as bad as Scotland Tonight.
£8 Million pounds a year on rent at Pacific Quay plus wages, to listen to a bias, lyin, state broadcaster.
Grrrrrrr!!
Long explanatory article in Guardian about where Britain gets its energy supplies, nuclear, gas, electricity.
Amid a whelter of facts and figures, from how it’s made to where it is stored, France and Netherlands get mentioned as modest suppliers, the rest “has a “made in Britain sticker” on it.”
Terrrific. England can sleep safe at night. Not a single mention of Scotland anywhere.
18% NO lead in women vote – good grief, come on the real women of Scotland, get them on the YES side
Alba
If you think this is Christmas,wait for the cracker.
I don’t know about you but I generally get to stay off work on Christmas morning! Stu must think he’s been sentenced to six months hard labour, I’d imagine.
Morag
He’s a Rev/priest/imam/rabbi,etc.His life is already forfeit for yours.He’s just using his time for our benefit,so we realise the benefit for all.
And I’m an atheist.
@Stevie
“18% NO lead in women vote – good grief, come on the real women of Scotland, get them on the YES side”.
The poll shows a healthy male lead in favour of a YES vote.
So I think the men in their lives need to start making a few marital threats towards the women in their lives.
“Listen hen, if you don’t vote AYE on 18th Sept, then am sleepin oan the couch”
C’moan all men of Scotland, we need a united front here.
“18% NO lead in women vote – good grief, come on the real women of Scotland, get them on the YES side”
Do you mean tonight’s women’s SWIB debate?
Here’s some stats.
Yes up from 19% to 31% and No down from 55% to 52%
Still work to do, but YES 12% up after the debate.
link to twitter.com
@alexicon
Do you mean tonight’s women’s SWIB debate?
Here’s some stats.
Yes up from 19% to 31% and No down from 55% to 52%.
I can only say that they must have heard of the threat that was comin down the line from their other half.
“Listen hen, if you don’t vote AYE on 18th Sept, then am sleepin oan the couch”
caz
Sorry,I preffered you with the -.
Really,domestic abuse?
It’s amazing how,what you type with a glass in hand,never reaches the heights you aspired to.
C’est la vie.
Any info about canvassers? Are they part of the Official representatives? If so it is disappointing that YES canvassers credibility is low.
@goldenayr
Hozat, caz-m is back.
I feel like one of those husbands who is out with the fussy wife (goldenayr), trying on different suits. and the wife likes the suit that you tried on at the very start.
Just don’t like the ‘overlord’ “I’m the husband,right” tones.
@schrodingers cat 8:41pm 7 April 2014
“i dont get any tv reception, not since they upgraded the local transmitter to digital, before that i got 3 and a half channels, now i get bugger all, i have found a site which broadcasts bbc 1 scotland live, tv catchup, but i relie on the contributers on this page for most of the links to whats happening in the world. I watch newsnicht scotland 3 or 4 days after it is uploaded but even the kids dont want sattelite, they think tv is last century stuff
ps, i dont get mobile reception either(thanks goodness) and the only radio i get is radio tay, i do however listen to the bbc links which are posted here. but since derek bateman has been given the hoof, less so”
Gee, are you living in a coal mine in north Fife….?
I have never understood why our leading broadcasters are based in Glasgow and not our capital city unless they do not think we are really a nation anyway. So first thing to sort out is closure of Pacific Quay headquarters!
Perhaps we could even blow-up the empty buildings as part of the Independence celebrations, of course following Bridget McConnell’s lead with Red Road!
Coming from West Fife, I think I can confidently say there have never been any coal mines in North Fife.
Of course, Ming the merciless (representing North Fife and having no axe to grind) would probably be quick to ingratiate himself with you ;0)
Goldenayr
Thank you for your kind words.
It didn’t take long for the next apocalypse to be predicted. It will happen with Scottish Independence, according to Lord John Robertson on Radio 4 this morning at 0600. The west is threatened. It’s like a Lord of the Rings sequel.
Which Labour big beast will be next with the WW3/civil war/mega flood/plague of locusts prediction?
link to whitefeatherclub.wordpress.com
After watching the buffoon Lord Robertson making a total arse of himself in America telling us how Scottish independence would be “cataclysmic” for the western world, with a “debilitating divorce” (lest we forget who it is that’s making it traumatic Lord George)
I had thought is it not time we had a (parcel of rogues) gallery in the same vein as the playing cards issued to American troops in the first gulf war, then I realised this would just give these creatures leverage in a sympathetic England,
No far better to ignore these people and know they will have to look at themselves in a mirror every day for what remains of their empty little existences, that’s punishment enough, I hope you live for a very long time Lord George a very long time.
Here is Lord Robertson’s Brookings Institute Speech in Washington yesterday. Also an audio of the speech to download.
Really is x-rated stuff.
link to brookings.edu
Lord Robertson and James Nuaghtie are both members of the “British American Project”.
link to en.wikipedia.org
And who interviews Lord Robertson in Washington?
Answer, BBC reporter James Naughtie,
Check out the other names on that British American Project list.
The joy in Naughtie’s voice as he prefaced his piece this morning ” from Washington ” would be laughable if it was not so sad.
I just hope James Naughtie wasn’t doing any work for the “British American Project” while on BBC Scotland duty.
Because if he was, then he would have been using our license fee money to carry out private business.
Someone should be keeping an eye on Naughtie and his jaunt to America.
He certainly isn’t spending his time interviewing Alex Salmond.
I must admit, I’m getting a bit sick of these Unionists screaming and frothing about how bad it would be for Britain / the West / Europe / the World if Scotland gets its independence.
They now know that the stakes are supremely high with the polls sitting at 50-50.
What galls and angers me is that while they spout their panicky view to the world, they still have ABSOLUTE no intention of giving the Scottish people what many truly wanted – Devo Max.
They instead said it was case ‘all or nothing’ …and now they don’t like it when half of Scotland wants ‘all’.
Personally …I couldn’t give a shit about what the rest of the world thinks. They didn’t bother when Maggie battered into us. They didn’t point out to the UK government that Westminster had no right to rule Scotland when they had no mandate. So, why should I give a toss when Van Rompuy, Rajoy or Barroso speak out. If they don’t want us …fine. There are other nations who will want to get involved with Scotland …primarily, several of the richest nations in the world; the Scandinavians (and probably Russia (who are only doing it to stir things!)). For as long as we have an arc of trade and knowledge with Scandinavia …I’m happy to have that position in the world.
Biblical disasters await the western world if wee Scotland exercises her free democratic decision to make life better for her people. You Lord Robertson are a buffoon of biblical proportions..
Bring on the cataclysm ermine hugger..and for Flipper – bring on the ermine cataclysm hugger..
So according to George R if we vote Yes there will be even more world shit happening like ‘Syria and Ukraine’, this is so monumentally offensive not least to the hell, in particular, Syrians are enduring minute to minute.
Simply shocking.
BBC Scotland are slipping back into Project Fear mode.
The “Warnings” had died down for a few months, but they are back with a vengeance.
Just listening to George Robertson’s thoughts on independence as summarized on the BBC news. That would be cataclysmic as in an asteroid hitting the earth and wiping out 90% of the species, or cataclysmic as in a new variant of bird flu killing a large fraction of the population or cataclysmic as in the aftermath of a devastating nuclear accident, or perhaps merely cataclysmic in the sense that a democratic referendum reduces the power that the UK has on the UN Security Council by a smidgen.
I’ve always wanted George Robertson to give an explanation of Dunblane – seems there is much to hide.
They’ve gone through the credibility barrier and are now travelling at the speed of bollocks. I’m loving it. Everything they say turns to Yes votes.
Keep it coming!
Now that Dave has stated that the 2015 GE is more important than the referendum, It looks like SLab Lords and assorted troughers have decided that if they want to keep their ermine cloaks and £300 a day, then they will need to get their fingers oot and start to trash Scotland and its people in the media here, and across the globe.
Dave gets to keep his hands clean and Unionist Scots do the dirty work. Its been like this throughout our history
Thank heavens for Nicola Sturgeon. She’s just been on rubbishing George Robertson’s arguments and inviting him to come into the world of rational discussion.
And this is where Lord Robertson gives the game away, with a quote from his speech;
“Scots are prominent, some would say dominant, at every level of British life….”
So there we have, in his own words, laid bare the fear that permeates Robertson’s mind. He and his kind will be surplus to requirements. He will no longer be prominent nor dominant in British life. He is so transparent and empty an individual.
Who will be next with a crass statement? My money is on Helen Lawrie Liddell, Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke.
@Dorothy Devine
Is that the Jimmy Savile connection Dorothy?
I’m getting confused. One moment we are insignificant and need “Big England” to represent us and the next we can impact on the stability of the planet?
What an idiot Robertson is.
He is working for someone here and it isn’t Scotland.
Robertson has also picked up that mid-Atlantic accent.
He doesn’t pronounce his T’s anymore.
He says things like, marra (matter) or Scorrish (Scottish)’
Must be all that globetrorring that he has done looking for a war.
Apparently the British American project is the promotion of NATO and it’s strategic concepts in the UK-kind of a PR company for American foreign policy.
Having recently seen some photos and images of Lord George Robertson I can confirm that he is using the Barnett formula
Thank god we’ve got Gordon Brown. He can just save the world again surely?
If Lord Robertson is so keen to speak then perhaps he can tell us a bit more about the Dunblane massacre and why so many files have been ‘sealed’ for a 100 years.
In all of Robertson’s speech at Brookings Institute warning if Scotland leaves the UK it will be the end of the new world order, the neo-liberal vision he has promoted for some thirty years, he can only list 6 advantages for Scotland staying. These are:
1. That “Scots are prominent at every level of British life” – well a very few might be but what of the rest of us that have to make do with ever decreasing austerity crumbs?
2. “We speak the same language” – yes, but so do millions of others around the world. Will we not still speak it after independence?
3. “We enjoy the same currency” – enjoy? I had more fun with plastic toy money.
4. “We have the same central bank with the same regulatory system” – We could still have a share of the same bank after independence if you were slightly willing to cooperate with your old neighbor. As to the lack of a serious regulatory system we can already see where that is leading.
5. “We enjoy the same public service broadcaster” – the BBC is hardly a public service more a government mouthpiece.
6. “…and much, much more.” Eh? What?
That is his tally of the benefits we get from the Union. Sounds like nothing worth staying for given the future we might have.
Thanks for the list George. Bye!
Good to see George over in America promoting Scotland.
Really fills me with confidence.
I think what George Robertson is really saying is that Scottish Independence would be cataclysmic for the Labour party.
British American Project
Patron: Lord Robertson
Vice Chair(UK): Murphy Cobbing BBC
Advisory Board Member: James Naughtie BBC
With apologies if anyone has said what I am about to, haven’t had time to read all the other posts.
This will be the same George Robertson, establishment toady and arch mason, who said during the Devolution Referendum that this would kill nationalism stone dead. Aye right George, what have they promised you now? Leader of the Free World. When you made that remark someone should have pointed you firmly at the speech made by Charles Stewart Parnell. “but no man has the right to fix the boundary of a nation.
No man has the right to say to his country, “Thus far shalt thou go and no further”,
@Arabs for Independence
Here is the view of “Scottish Cover Up Merchants S.C.U.M” on the connections between the Dunblane tragedy and George Robertson.
link to thescum.info
Make your own mind up.
@Jim
I think it’s cute that you still put an apostrophe in front of phoning. There can’t be many like you left.
As a dyed in the wool pedant I salute you!
I think enough has been said of George Robertson’s idiotic crass spoutings
What I noticed this morning on GMS was it was practically wall to wall coverage. With Naughtie, who we were led to believe to have been sent to the US to cover Alex Salmond’s visit actually spending more time covering Robertson.
The impression I got was that there is no news from Alex Salmond’s visit (which Naughtie spouted yesterday or earlier when he stated that no one was talking about the referendum).
There has been little or no coverage of the various business meetings that the First Minister has had to sell Scotland to business and attract jobs, which he has had some success. All ignored by GMS, unless it mentioned something when I went to make a cup of tea?
It interesting that after Naughtie’s idiotic no one is talking about the referendum guff, what pops up, but a video of a current affairs programme on MSNBC (the current affairs arm of NBC) interviewing Alex Salmond and asking about the referendum.
What exactly is Naughtie doing in the US?
@clootie:
Robertson has never worked for Scotland. Go look him up at the powerbase.info website.
If you can stomach the credibility of Scottish civil servants being examined in London then tune in at 9:45am for the HoC Public Administration Committee.
link to parliamentlive.tv
If you have survived this and not been sectioned for an apoplectic fit or arrested for throwing your computer out your window then tune in at 3pm for the HoC Scottish Affairs Committee as they meet the ‘our islands our future’ team and discuss the partitioning of Scotland.Have oxygen on standby peeps.
link to parliamentlive.tv
How many people cited Subway adverts?
@ Jack Sloan
I like your point-by-point approach to George Robertson’s speech. I was going to do the same for Ming in the Guardian but I don’t have time (or the patience, frankly) to do a comprehensive breakdown. All you need to know is –
1. Ming loves his country and he’s very, very Scottish and does lots of Scottishy things
2. The debate so far has been ‘somewhat abusive’. Presumably that’s a dig at those terrible separatists, not the guy on Twitter who hopes Alex Salmond gets shot.
3. Independence is bad and usually caused by discrimination. If you have a grievance, you get to vote every five years so stop complaining.
4. Some Scotsmen (he names eleven of them) have done very well out of the Union. As for the rest of us…?
5. Scotland has it’s own legal system, education system and World Cup Team. What more do you want?
6. SNP are too wee and stupid to run poor wee stupid Scotland.
7. Proposes more jam for all in 2015.
8. Ming likes things just the way they are.
I cannot, and would not, attempt to speak for others. However, I am personally offended by these unelected symbols of rank and privilidge, these cardboard cut-out Lords, from Westminster, attempting to dictate to me on anything. Much less on any matters affecting Scotland’s democratic right to self determination.
Particularly so when the lord in question is a sabre rattling former figurehead of the USA/UK nuclear weapons partnership with their weapons at present stationed in my own country.
Scotland is not about to become ANYONE’s enemy. It is thus not unreasonable to demand the USA/Kingdom of England warmongering faction station their weaponry within their own territotial boundaries. That doesn’t make an independent Scotland any part of, or friend of, whatever Robertson imagines as the, “Dark forces of Evil”.
Need I remind the numptie that more than half the World sees the present USA/UK Special Relationship as, “The Dark forces of Evil”.
Interesting information about the BAP, so thanks for that. I have long puzzled about why the political and media elite are almost universally pro american, and why they seem to be intent on turning us into a US state: that goes some way to explaining it: they are recruited through Kennedy Fellowships and retained through the BAP, it seems. For some reason words like “treason” are playing about in my head.
But we must realise the reality of the situation people.
What Lord Robertson is pointing out is that this might lead to a third world war: and if it does it will all be Scotland’s fault. It is a hell of a responsibility: or it could be a lie.
I do believe that our plutocrats are leading us inexorably into a third world war,as it happens: it is how they fix things when they trash the economy, as they regularly do, But I don’t think that Serbia caused WW1, and I am not convinced that Scotland will cause WW3. I do think there is comfort to be had in the thought that we could avoid becoming embroiled in it, depending on what we consider the merits of such a war to be: but only if we are independent when it starts.
O/T
“MPs’ appetite for champagne has not been affected by the coalition’s austerity programme”
link to tinyurl.com
“The House of Commons currently has 582 bottles of champagne in stock, at a total worth of £6,513”
That works out at an average of £11.19 per bottle.
“The range of drink officials bought in for MPs to enjoy ranges like Taittinger, Lenoble and the House of Commons’ own-brand champagnes”
Anybody know where I can get these champagnes at these prices?
No, thought not.
i thought this was a very concise summary of Robertson’s speech.
link to eveningharold.com
M4rkyboy says
“If you can stomach the credibility of Scottish civil servants being examined in London then tune in at 9:45am for the HoC Public Administration Committee”
Ah jings I tried M4rkyboy really, but when I clicked on the link I don’t seem to have silverlight installed so I cant watch it, oh well never mind, the wife so delights in seeing the vein in my forehead threaten to blow as well 🙂
Anyone have any idea what time the unravelling of the space time continuum starts?
I bought popcorn and there’s not one decent film on.
@ Jack Beck/Scotus, 8 april 2014 at 3:05am
“Coming from West Fife, I think I can confidently say there have never been any coal mines in North Fife.
Yep, I was fairly certain of that, but, I didn’t want to suggest schrodingers cat might be living in a cave!
On the subject of Robertson, whenever he is wheeled out he makes a complete fool of himself. He never did rate as an MP either and I note how fast after Dunblane he was shuffled out of Tony Blair’s Cabinet and into NATO. Never understood that at the time, but, I am seeing some fairly unsavoury suggestions published. Not sure, given the theme, why the Americans allow him through immigration.