This is your choice
Posted on
January 09, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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Who were the 12, Mundell of course, but who else?
I didn’t see any Scottish Lib Dem MPs in the list of rebels. There are 11, aren’t there?
(I’m counting Kennedy’s abstention as a Yes. Slight artistic licence, because there isn’t room on the poster for the word, but technically he did vote Yes, he just voted No as well.)
Of that 47, only six voted based on principle. The other 41 just voted against for party political purposes. They’d be supporting this move or worse if in power. After all, those feckless joblessness benefits scroungers all want ‘something for nothing’ as Mrs Lamont eluded to.
Hang this picture around the lib dems necks since they are beyond hanging their heads in shame. Pledge your way out of this one Clegg.
Kennedy abstained I think.
BTW An excellent and razor sharp pictorial summation Rev_Stu.
No, no, no – that’s not the biggest news story of the day. Not when our lords and masters in the Pro UK movement (sic) are going to be saying the same old shit about Faslane again and they’ve just been brilliant by telling us in advance that they’re going to say that.
Yours,
Michael Settle, The Herald.
Glad you didn’t implode in a rage last night, Stu.
Another nice bit of info with which to counter the No campaign’s incessant propaganda. Have to say I am worried for Yes Scotland at the moment. Every thirty or so seconds there’s yet another No campaign scare story headlined in the media and barely a peep from the other side.
Why couldn’t the headlines on BBC Scotland today be the Yes vision for a non-nuclear Faslane instead of the No-side’s lies and scaremongering? It’s not all down to bias. Yes are either keeping their powder dry or not shouting loud enough.
November’s white paper can’t come soon enough. There’s going to be a mountain of (perhaps embedded) lies to counter by that point in the campaign.
“Every thirty or so seconds there’s yet another No campaign scare story headlined in the media”
I’m absolutely dizzy trying to establish the No camp’s position on Trident this morning. In about 72 hours we’ve had every possible line – it’ll stay in Scotland, it’ll go to Devenport, it can’t go to Devenport, it’ll go to Wales, it’ll go everywhere, hardly anyone will lose their job, everyone in Scotland will lose their job, you name it. All from official sources. Trying to compile, but it’s mind-ruining.
In regards to Faslane, the narrative on GMS today was rather daft. The “revelation” that the MoD would choose to pull ALL subs out of Faslane when we become independent – and not just the Trident ones – was a bit like the person whose house you’ve just bought saying “oh, we’ll be taking ALL our furniture with us by the way, not just the fridge”, to which my answer would be, “damn right you’re taking it all – I’ll be getting my own furniture, so don’t think you’re using my house as your dumping ground.”
Apparently the SNP have to detail the exact timetable for removing Trident and what they’ll do in the event of non-Trident subs being taken out of Faslane. Err, was I the only one paying attention every time Angus Robertson stated Faslane would continue as Scotland’s main naval base?
If it had been an SNP motion to block the proposals then Labour would have voted in favour.
“There’s going to be a mountain of (perhaps embedded) lies to counter”
Well yes, but at the same time most of the lies are so transparent, and the truth so blatantly obvious, that a lot of people might simply have switched off by then – which is what the No campaign want, after all – and find the white paper and vision a breath of fresh air that blows the stale out the room.
@ cath I hope you’re right. My worry is that by the time the white paper comes out most of the undecided will think that independence is just way too confusing and complicated to even consider.
The No camp don’t even need a clear message; their aim is just to sow as much confusion and worry as possible.
@cath, @Rolf
OR … it could be that the unremitting negativity only affects the “Undecideds”. Their “fed-up-ness” is more likely to end up as an abstention. So, I predict that at some point early in 2014 once the impact of the White paper is being recorded in the polls, there will be a concerted effort to introduce the “qualifying turnout” into the mix. They did it in 1979 and will try again.
This time of course, Westminster is not in control, but this also IMHO explains the resurgence on the blogs of the “dispossessed” Scots who are living outwith the country and (SHAME) will not get a vote. I will probably be one of them as I doubt I will get back in time, or get on the roll. But I accept that. Those that don”t are being disingenuous at best, and ******* – I shan’t say the word – at worst!
I do worry about the ulta-low profile of the YES Scotland campaign, but can see the overall rationale. I can only suppose that their own private polling indicates that at the moment they do not need to be ‘all out’ in countering the lies and misinformation. I hope they are right.
I cannot keep up with it either.
The comments in the Herald suggest that almost no-one believes a word of this.
One day it’s 500 jobs, the next its’ 19,000. Apparently Davidson claimed 21,000 this morning, though I haven’t heard that personally.
@Rolf- Independence issue might be too confusing?
The picture posted above isn’t confusing. Scotland votes No England votes Yes. Motion passed. Surely even the least interested,in politics, electors in Scotland understand that message. Scottish skier is correct Slabs mighty force didn’t vote out of conviction however the picture posted here – paints a thousand words.
Did you vote Darling? Did you rush back from Scotland after telling us that we are better together?
@ velofello
I know it’s not confusing, you know it’s not confusing, but most of the undecided don’t and they don’t get their information from Wings. They get it from ‘trusted’ Aunty BBC and she’s a devious old crone.
Thing is, the average Scot couldn’t give a rat’s ass about Trident other than they’d be glad to see it gone.
It’s a bit like the EU thing; in our out is irrelevant to the referendum.
Unionist politicians seem clueless as to what actually is important. Which of course helps explain why the UK continues to sail up brown stuff creek without a paddle.
This Welfare Act, along with the privatisation of the NHS in England, the start of it in the Justice system in England, is exactly what we face both at present, and much more ominously, what is in store for Scotland if we vote No. No voters you have been warned!…This is Ayn Rand stuff to a tee. This is going way beyond the old cow’s assaults on the public sector and services.
O/T I was surveyed twice by the same company recently and asked if I would vote for independence. I think it was an SG survey as I was asked about flu jabs, smoke alarms and the commonwealth games.
As noted by others above, I’m very glad to see you managed to vent your fury through a constructive channel.
There’s only one thing worse than being a right-wing neoliberal; it’s giving in to it and becoming one.
The Lid Dems disgust me. To think I once considered them the only UK party I might had lent my vote too.
They deserve to be wiped out electorally, much as it pains me as both a social liberal and a democrat.
The problem we have, is that a lot of people out there are believing the right wing lies being spread by the media about people on benefits , the sick and the homeless etc . Unfortunately I include my 2 sons amongst those who are believing the crap spouted by the media . When I was brought up in the 60s , If my dad did not work , we did not eat and even if he was working we often had to do without and it eventually drove him to an early grave as he would be working all hours of the day and night to try and provide for his family . When my sons were growing up my wife and I often went without things to ensure that our sons never had to endure what we had to . When you try explaining to them how hard things were and how hard things are now for a lot of people all you get from them is that it is all ancient history . I just wish now that my wife and I had been a bit more hard on them and then they might have appreciated how hard it is for some people out there . We cant pin all the blame on the politicians for what is now happening in society , the media has to take a lot of the flack for promoting a right wing agenda and parents like myself who did everything to ensure our children never did without are also partly responsible for todays ills . Sorry for the rant but I really despair at times about what is happening to my country .
My take on Trident is that the UK government privately know they can’t afford it, and will see ditching it as one of the financial benefits of losing Scotland – but publicly, they will be able to pin the blame on the loss of Trident on Alex Salmond (in the same way they really didn’t want a Lockerbie appeal, but Kenny Macaskill took the flak for releasing Megrahi).
All depends though how desperate the UK government are to keep their permanent place on the UN Security Council, and how dependent that is on Trident.
@Rolf;
I should have added that with WoS permission the picture can be a excellent campaign poster. Scotland’s political impotency shown by illustration. It looks haun knitted for the Yes campaign.
Darling failed to attend the vote yesterday; obviously, keeping Scotland in the discredited UK is more important.
@muttley79
What many people don’t know about Ayn Rand is that she ended her years claiming welfare benefit.
O/T Interesting post on LVI site.
Danny McCafferty I was in the Labour Party for 18 years a Labour councillor for a third of that time, Cosla Education Convener , and on Holyrood and Westminster panel of approved candidates……latterly I began to think for myself instead of toeing the line…..wasn’t long before we parted company after that….Labour does not want independent minded thinkers only people who will follow the national ” leadership ” without question…..Scotland is having a referendum because Labour voters joined with the existing SNP base to elect an SNP majority government through an electoral system designed to make that impossible. They did so because they are sick of being treated to moronic propaganda and sound bite politics instead of being treated with respect as people with opinions…….Unfortunately Labour have learned nothing from that result…….they will treat the referendum as an election campaign and rely on their vote returning ….in many cases such as mine whose heart lies within the broad labour and trade union movement it is gone until we have a party worthy of the name in an independent Scotland…until then every Labour member and supporter I can bring over will be worked for tirelessly. We need a social revolution and need it badly if we are to avoid being dominated by right wing political masters for decades to come..who will try to eradicate social conscience from our childrens understanding of society…
Facebook page for the anti-Trident/Independence march in April. Worth bookmarking the page for further developments. Spread the word at your party/union/YES meetings.
If anyone has wondered what the Radical Independence Campaign is about videos from November’s conference are now available on Youtube.
Here’s the one from Cat Boyd’s speech. It’s worth listening to if you need a boost to your faith.
Another Scotland is possible.
Some of the Rev’s and YES campaign/LFI “poster” images produced during the past twelve months have been really excellent and hard-hitting. It is a pity that more people cannot see them. How about producing a calendar for 2014, with a YES message for every month up to the referendum? Better still, a 2014 diary with a YES thought for every day. A great way to counter all the recycled MSM crap. It would make an excellent Christmas gift for our unionist chums!
Was Mr Darling unable to attend yesterday due to a speech appointment somewhere ?
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/revealed-gulf-payments-british-mps-484747.html?view=profile&itemid=484733
@Luigi
Calendar’s a great idea, Luigi. Just think of the exposure if we could get some shops to stock it as well as being available online.
I’ve tried to look at this period of time for what it is…and I think it really just a ‘phoney war’. The real battle has yet to begin
As everyone says, the ‘Yes’ camp have still to get started, the ‘No’ camp are making noises, they shout a bit, gnash their teeth, and then ‘confuddle’ the written lies once more with more garbage.
No one is talking about the Referendum at this time, because it isn’t here yet. So…what do we really have…
The way I see it ….right now …it’s the die-hard Nationalists (us) having a war of words with the die-hard Unionists. It’s just a slanging match, but the mistake they are making is that by spouting their garbage now, they are allowing us to get the real truth material ready for when it all does begin.
I hope when the SNP finally do get into gear, that the lies from the other side will vanish, and that the Unionists will have to up their game. I can see people being very peed off should the current nonsense continue when the Referendum does get underway. People (the unsures – even some of the ‘No’s’) will smell a rat if the lies persist, and it will only be the Unionists fault, should the end result be …Independence.
Does anybody else feel that this is what this is …that is a ‘Phoney War’ right now…
Darling has flipped his residence, for Westroughminster expenses purposes so often, does anyone know if he is in fact resident in Scotland and will have a vote in 2014?
Just askin, like?
Going back to the topic of the welfare cuts. Can I also just point out beforehand that I am not a “radical leftie” but more “left of centre”.
I am all for making savings in welfare spending but it has to be done sensibly and taking into account what the ramifications are for every member of society whether they are top earners or unemployed.
The UK is in dire need of a redistribution of wealth from the very top down. Instead of cutting welfare spending, why not enforce employers to pay a living wage rather than a minimum wage?
I can hear it now “a living wage will cripple my business and make me less competitive, it’s a disaster for the economy!”
I put it to you ladies and gentleman that we heard this same scare story from commerce when the minimum wage was being talked about but we’re all still here?
By introducing the living wage we can lift so many working families out of the need for “topups” (where the majority of the budget is spent) thus making significant savings.
This will happen I’m sure in an independent Scotland.
PLease do yourself a favour if your reading this sitting on the fence, vote “Yes” in 2014!
I’m surprised no-one has posted this here yet!
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/jan/darling-fails-vote-against-westminster-cuts
Hi there, Just asking belated permission to use the image on facebook pages I’m involved with, should have done this earlier, but presumed….. it would be OK, image going mad already, its a hit, Yes to an Independent Scotland page also have it with , and been asked if it can be tweeted.
Images like this get through to even the least interested folk and our made in heaven for our campaign.
Well done that man,
PS nice reading some of the optimism on here, been wondering a bit myself lately,
but remember folks as regards Yes Scotland, there is no big media campaign, it is grass roots.ie we all have to do it.
“Hi there, Just asking belated permission to use the image on facebook pages I’m involved with”
Clearly I don’t own copyright in the image of Westminster in the background, but in so far as I have any rights to grant or withhold permission, use it anywhere and everywhere you like. The more the better.
Better Together campaign selling trendy specs to britnats….
BAICPbsCQAAhsrR.jpg:large (JPEG Image, 800 × 572 pixels)
@Luigi
Yes your calendar is a good one. production costs anyone? Meantime how do we get the A1 image of this article in front of the public. The image is the bread and butter politics espoused but, abandoned, by Labour.
i’m going to visit the Yes campaign office in Hope Street on Friday and will refer the calendar idea to them, and the image here too as poster potential.
It is noticeable now in comments sections that there is a slow increase in the the number of committed Independentistas who are becoming gloomy about the negative anti-Independence scare stories appearing on an almost daily basis in the media. I now believe it is essential that the YES campaign does something to counteract this. Surely with all the media brains on the YES campaign committee they can come up with something, even if it costs money.
Currently the only things I can find are rebuttals on the SNP web site but your ordinary voter won’t be reading what is in them if the media won’t publish them. And anyway these rebuttals are reactive. We need some proactive stuff, if only to hearten the troops. And please if anything IS done make sure it is fully researched and fireproof, as we don’t want any repeats of the cock ups over the EU, using the £S and the Bank of England.
I hear what you are saying, Commenter. However, to any independenistas getting nervous about the relentless MSM attacks, I urge patience. Hold the line. Stay cool. We are still 20+ months away and the real battle is yet to begin. When you think about it, MSM have been recycling the same old scare stories for ay least a year now – nothing new, just the same old crap with a different angle. Heck, even the angles are now repeats. The people have already had a bellyful of MSM crap. They are not sick of the referendum, they are sick of all the lies, the negativity. They want something new, something honest, something exciting, something positive. And the will get it. Step forward a YES campaign that is going to blow the nay-sayers out of the water. Coming soon. I hope the Better Together folk enjoyed 2012. As of now, it is not going to get any better, for them.
Commentator
Forget about it, whenever I try I get mocked, derided and laughed at here, not encouraged. check out how im treated on the posting – vote yes to a nuclear free England.
I give up, bon voyage WoS, good luck and see you on the other side in 2014. We can all meet up the south gate at Faslane to see if Trident has left or blockaded or disarmed.
That’s a really disappointing huff, Bill. I’d expect better from a military man.
Bill,
As your main opponent on that thread, I feel you just don’t like to be challenged.
I found what you had to say to be quite interesting, Frankly, your ideas are worth developing. It would be more interesting if you bent like a reed occasionaly, but you don’t.
It seems that, according to you, the future Scottish governent will have to drop it’s pants and bend over, (Christ, I don’t believe I just typed that) just so rUK will still have a nuclear bomb to drop.
That is what you have said, that is, presumeably, what you believe. It is not what most people up here think.
Bon voyage, my friend. It was fun.
Anyway I know a lot more now than I did when we started our discussion, and for that, I am grateful.
Who knew about the status of the Scilly Isles? Not me, that’s for sure.
Bill,
This is just self serving rubbish:
“Forget about it, whenever I try I get mocked, derided and laughed at here, not encouraged. check out how im treated on the posting – vote yes to a nuclear free England.”
You sir, have tried to minimise my comments on that very thread in quite derogatory terms. If you read the thread properly, you had allies, and you threw them away. Bloody hell, even I was willing to listen to what you had to say.
But you blew it.
It is probably around and about the point where you argued that everyone would have a nuclear capability, sometime soon.
I love science fiction, I really do, but that is where you and I parted. There are a lot of nations on this planet that could do it.
They don’t.
We are supposed to be trapped into a MAD just because we did develop them.
Seriously, fuck that.
We can walk away from this if we really, really want to. Alternatively, we can just stay the same.
I know which side of the moral fence I want to be on. Whether that makes me dead or not.
Do you?