The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


The ‘No’ future

Posted on March 15, 2013 by

The media (and some of the more gullible elements of the blogosphere) recently got itself into a lather about Douglas Alexander’s latest contribution to the independence debate – excellently rebutted by novellist and playwright Alan Bissett – which presented his vision of a post-referendum Scotland that voted No to independence.

nofuture

Here’s an alternative picture. But unlike the typical “Better Together” scare story, these are not fabricated fantasies. Many are happening right now, while others are merely under discussion and in preparation.

This is what you’re voting for if you vote No.

1. The end of the NHS
(more)

2. The end of universal health care free at the point of use
(more)

3. Privatisation of the police
(and the Fire Brigade)

4. Thousands made homeless by the Bedroom Tax
(more)

5. The rich getting richer
(more) (don’t expect Labour to be any different)

6. The highest child poverty in the Western world
(and growing all the time)

7. Another 300,000 public-sector job losses

8. No votes for the unemployed

9. The continuing persecution of the disabled

10. The poor driven to suicide
(more) (more)

11. The income of nurses, teachers and soldiers slashed

12. Scotland to keep subsidising the Treasury
(more)

13. More collusion in torture

14. £100bn spent on Trident
(stationed on the Clyde because it’s too dangerous for England)

15. The continuing mass exodus of Scotland’s youth
(sporting talent too)

16. Drastic reductions in access to higher education
(coming soon to Scotland)

17. Slashed benefits for the elderly
(is there an echo in here?)

18. The evisceration of the Royal Mail
(in preparation for privatisation)

19. Corrupt banks acting above the law because they’re “too big to fail”

20. The UK leaving the European Union

21. The repeal of the Human Rights Act

22. The removal of the rights of injured workers

23. The removal of workers’ rights in general
(as fast as possible)

24. £5bn of Scottish money spent on English infrastructure
(also including Crossrail, HS2 and more, all without Barnett consequentials)

25. New nuclear power stations

26. Hundreds of thousands more people in fuel poverty

27. More cripplingly expensive PFI projects

28. Expansion of the House Of Lords
(why that’s bad)

29. The poor subsidising the rich in local government funding

30. MPs demanding enormous pay rises
(despite already costing us £250,000 a day in expenses alone)
(and still cheating to get even more)

31. More and more people queueing at food banks
(and being abused for it)

32. Forced unpaid labour for the sick and disabled
(forever, or else)

33. More working families living in poverty

34. Welfare cuts to bribe the wealthy

35. Social cleansing of the poor from cities
(more)

36. More (and worse) urban riots

37. Wage cuts for anyone outside south-east England

38. Children going hungry in schools to save money

39. Unprecedented intrusion into citizens’ homes
(yes, even more than under Labour)

40. Unprecedented surveillance in public
(so don’t be thinking of protesting about any of this stuff)

daremonday2

 Goodnight, and good luck.

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127 to “The ‘No’ future”

  1. Tasmanian says:

    This list is appalling, and very appropriate to tag as disturbing. Thanks for compiling it.

    After Scottish independence, would Scotland expect a tide of English refugees? Is it known how a former UK citizen would be regarded as English or Scottish?

    If I wasn’t living in Australia I’d be moving to Scotland about now.

  2. BillDunblane says:

    A very cold picture you paint.
     
    Frightening when all  these threads are sown together.

  3. Bunter says:

    Missed a biggy!
    How about the privatisation of Scottish water and the resources diverted south to feed the increasing demand of Boris land.
    All that  water in Scotland  causing too much hassle and worry,  and not worth anything you see.
    Best to let the city of London look after it or some foreign owned conglomerate.

  4. douglas clark says:

    You’ve just made the ‘Better Together’s’ job a hell of a lot harder.
     
    Well done!

  5. David Smith says:

    “…the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister by the lights of perverted science…”

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Missed a biggy!
    How about the privatisation of Scottish water and the resources diverted south to feed the increasing demand of Boris land.”

    In fairness, Catriona did include that but I took it out because as far as I know control of Scottish Water is devolved and wouldn’t be directly affected by the referendum result. Obviously Westminster could theoretically re-reserve the power, but they COULD do that with anything so we’d just be making stuff up at that point.

    It was past 3am when I put the feature up, so if I’m wrong there I’ll put it back in 🙂

  7. David Smith says:

    In the event of a NO vote I will be seeking asylum in Scandinavia.

  8. mato21 says:

    Re the water it was the stated aim before the last Holyrood election for the water to be put up for grabs under various quises Annabel wanted to mutulise Tavish wanted to sell it and who would remember what Iain Gray said about anything So beware of the water

  9. Mike Mills says:

    Interesting.  I suspect that we are going to see an awful lot of scare-mongering on both sides of the debate so I hope that the vote will be based on balanced thinking and that the scare-mongering will be just that.
    For there to be a debate, there must be opposing views.  The ‘political’ world has moved away from adult debate (largely in response to the media demand for sensationalism) to ‘point-scoring’ – this means that a proper, intelligent debate will be difficult to come by …

  10. EphemeralDeception says:

    A couple of others:
    (Diego Garcia related)
    Extraordinary rendition 
    House of Lords above the law. (Sanctioned UK ethnic cleansing of people of Diego Garcia, after UK government Lost twice in UK High Court). We are also guilty by association.
     
    Others:
    No reform of HOL and therefore continuation of unelected representation.
    UK and HOL implementing Laws and policies majority of Scots are against.
    In addition to 24).  UK Strategy for all key infrastructure and transport projects is fully focused on SE England,by both Labour and Tory adminstrations.
    No direct representation of Scotland on any European and international bodies eg. to impact fisheries policy.
    Continuation to subsidise the huge cost of the biggest undersea gas connection in the world that only supplies English consumers (Sleipner pipeline). Supplies 40% of UK GAS, 0% Scottish GAS. Scotland continuing to export 5 times more gas to England than we use without any direct benefit.
    Electricty Generation and Grid modernisation + less diversification from reliance on Oil, coal  and GAS penalised by UK Ofgen policy on production and connection charges North of the border.
    100000 North Sea Oil related jobs are currently based in/around london (Mostly central office administration, insurine bancking and government lmobbying etc)  Source Oil and GAs UK.  A significant %age of these jobs and offices will have to move to Scotland with independence. A no vote means all this supportd economy and GDP of SE England instead of Scotland (where it should be). Source: http://www.oilandgasuk.co.uk/2012economic_report/employment_region.cfm
    UK economic strategy and gearing will remain focused on SE England, service industries etc and not adapted to Scotland at all.
     
     
     
     
     
     

  11. Robert Kerr says:

    The captions in the comic strip are not quite correct.
    I discussed his father’s experience in the Netherlands during German occupation with a Dutch engineer. We were both seconded to Italy at the time so got to know each other well.
    “Ausweis Bitte” is wrong. there was never a “Bitte” from the soldiery of the Occupying Power.
    A harbinger for us?
     

  12. EphemeralDeception says:

    P.S.  Sorry for typos above, I could not edit them in time.

  13. Simon says:

    That is a scary cartoon as well… the opposite of “slowly slowly catchee monkey” is boiling a frog…

  14. Holebender says:

    Would posters please proof read before clicking the submit button? As a courtesy to those you expect to read your words of wisdom.

  15. Hermione says:

    Campbell
     
    “Obviously Westminster could theoretically re-reserve the power, but they COULD do that with anything so we’d just be making stuff up at that point.”
     
    …which applies to most of this hysterical list.

  16. ianbrotherhood says:

    Copying this from ‘Quarantine’ thread:
    Albert Herring says:
    14 March, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    From Demarchy UK. Scary stuff if true. http://www.facebook.com/demarchyintheuk/posts/467379663333131

  17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “…which applies to most of this hysterical list.”

    Except, of course, that most of them are already happening. That’s the difference between your scare stories and ours – ours are true, and all sourced.

  18. scaredy cat. says:

    I’m afraid this list doesn’t do us any favours. Some of it might be accurate but other parts are simply speculation and dare I say it ‘scare tactics’. For example ‘no votes for the unemployed’ Really? I believe all political parties have their share of extremists. It doesn’t mean their ideas ever see the light of day. In addition the source of some of these stories are the very newspapers we have been so critical of. If scaring people into submission is the new approach then we sink to the level of BT. It’s ok to talk about what might happen but to say ‘this is what you are voting for if you vote no’ isn’t really honest is it? We don”t want to be dismissed as paranoid scare mongers. That’s for the BT campaigners.

  19. Robert Kerr says:

    Indeed Hermione… Power devolved is Power retained.
    The essence of the “Yes” vote is to move on.
    Glad you understand.
     

  20. Craig P says:

    Thanks Catriona for compiling that list, pretty depressing all taken together. My God, surely there is something to be said for the union?!

  21. Indy_Scot says:

     
    If this referendum was clearly laid out on a level playing field for all of the Scottish public to see, the outcome of this referendum would be in no doubt. It will be a difficult job for the Yes campaign to get out the cold hard facts and consequences of a no vote out to every voter, given that the majority of the media are Labour or unionist driven, but if the Yes campaign can get these facts to the whole of Scotland by post or through a national newspaper, then I believe Scotland will take its rightful place in the world.
    I don’t believe the real battle is about convincing anyone the merits of Independence, I believe the real battle is getting the information out to the public about the overwhelming benefits of a Yes vote for the Scottish people and for Scotland.
     
     
     

  22. Cath says:

    All of these are happening. Many are so far only down south, such as privatisation of the NHS and police etc.
     
    The problem is that all in the NO campaign – which is essentially comprised of all  Westminster parties, the British state and British media – appear to want to stop the increasing differentiation between Scotland and rUK. That is why they were so insistent no more devolution would be on offer. They are terrified of the differentiation happening now and want that stopped.
     
    There are no signs whatsoever that Labour or the Lib Dems in Scotland disagree with hauling Scotland back into line, quite the opposite. Everything Lamont and Rennie have said so far has been a drastic shift to the right, an end to universalism and bringing us in line with England.
     
    So we have to assume this is what will happen with a NO – Scotland will be pulled into line with England, as all in the NO campaign are suggesting.
     
    If this assumption is wrong and the NO campaign has some other vision for Scotland, they should outline it, along with how they intend to fund it, because the Barnett formula will become increasingly useless to Scotland as public services in England are privatised.
     
    I hate negative campaigning, and would rather be positive. But I do have very real fears for what will happen to Scotland after a NO vote. And given the amount of baseless scaremongering coming from the NO side, when this is the reality, happening right now, before our eyes, it needs said.

  23. Cath says:

    “My God, surely there is something to be said for the union?!”
     
    There is a huge amount to be said for Scotland, as an independent country, working together in some kind of union with England on certain issues, where power is voluntarily and democratically ceded by both into “the union”. There is none at all, as far as I can see, for the “relationship” we have now. Again, it’s the NO campaign who are instead fuelling hatreds, refusing to even discuss how a better Britain might work (either federal, devo-max or independence) and using terms like “foreigners”. They will not allow a decent debate on how Britain needs to change – and it does.

  24. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m afraid this list doesn’t do us any favours. Some of it might be accurate but other parts are simply speculation and dare I say it ‘scare tactics’. For example ‘no votes for the unemployed’ Really?”

    The example you cite is pretty much the ONLY one on the whole list that isn’t either happening right now or openly planned. And today’s “extremists” are tomorrow’s mainstream. In 2010, put your hands up if you imagined the Tories really making the disabled work in Poundland for nothing indefinitely, or forcing them out onto the streets for having a “spare bedroom” that’s actually a lift shaft for someone with severe epilepsy?

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2013/03/12/liverpool-woman-faces-600-bedroom-tax-bill-on-disabled-chair-lift-shaft-100252-32969797/

    If you’d said that would happen two years ago, people would have said what you’re saying now – “Don’t be ridiculous”. But ridiculous is the new normal now.

  25. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Cath-
    Hear hear to that.
    Imagine the angry parent telling the obstinate teenager, for the umpteenth time, to get that room tidied : ‘If you don’t clean it up, I’ll do it.’
    The threat is clear – if you come back to find that all of your most prized possessions have been dumped, don’t come crying to me. You were warned repeatedly, you had a chance, and you didn’t take it. So shut up.

  26. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “All of these are happening. Many are so far only down south, such as privatisation of the NHS and police etc.”

    I cut out a handful of things on Catriona’s original list for that very reason. But with something like the NHS, as we’ve already noted on this site, the Scottish one is funded based on expenditure on the England-and-Wales one, and if that’s taken out of public spending there’ll be no money at all for Scotland’s and it’ll have no choice BUT to privatise.

  27. Grahamski says:

    So, given up on the positive campaign then?

  28. “My God, surely there is something to be said for the union?!”
    It helped build a strong social contract between two nations that were often at each other’s throats.  Whether that was worth the cost is another debate, but crucially this benefit is a benefit of the union that is now longer required.  Either our social contract is strong enough to survive Scottish independence and we will, as Nicola Sturgeon so memorably put it, be ‘best of neighbours rather than surly lodgers’ or it won’t in which case even that benefit was illusory.
    That is all I can think of in terms of the positive case for the Union, and it is I think a substantial thing.  Importantly though, it’s not a thing that should have any bearing on our future.  

  29. Swello says:

    “So, given up on the positive campaign then?”
    I wasn’t aware this was an Yes Scotland campaign website – can’t remember seeing anyone promising “positive only” content here.

  30. CameronB says:

    @ Grahamski
    I haven’t heard any positive case from No Scotland. Have you?

  31. Adrian B says:

    “So, given up on the positive campaign then?”
     
    Certainly not, however it is important to look at the other option on the ballot paper that we are being offered. There is much uncertainty to what a No vote would mean in many areas. You have to look at what possibilities lie in a No vote occurring and how it would contrast with the vision from the Yes campaign.
     
    Being realistic – this is what the evidence would appear to support today, the list might get better or worse as we approach Referendum day, what we see before us right now is a growing list of negative benefits to Scots from the Union. We can’t ignore that list and it is important to look at what is happening within other regions of the Union.
     
     

  32. Cath says:

    “So, given up on the positive campaign then?”
     
    Yes this is negative. But it’s reality. It’s what’s happening in the UK right now. It’s negative and why many of us want a different path. At least the YES campaign have a very positive vision of how we in Scotland can do things differently and take back control and power so people here are no longer being sucked into that vision of the future, which is a vision shared by all Westminster parties. Labour are not going to re-nationalise the NHS or police, or take away bedroom tax.
     
     
    What do the NO campaign have? This is the UK. We reckon it’s OK. So suck it up and STFU whinging Jocks. If folk in England have to take this so do you. Hardly a positive or hopeful message. And probably why they don’t have many real people on the ground out there punting it. They rely on a compliant, lying media and MPs and councillors to man the odd stall.

  33. tartanfever says:

    Just thought we’d talk your language for a wee while Grahamski, get down to your level.
    Your pal Joyce is banged up again, well done, you must be proud.

  34. Dcanmore says:

    I came to London in 2008 and one of things I’ve noticed is the rise of homeless people on the streets and in particular of young homeless people. When I go to work in the morning there are now many more people sleeping in doorways than there was a couple years ago. The social cleansing continues as Camden Council announced last week that they are moving 2800 tenants to Birmingham, Bradford and Leicester. Scots actor Tom Conti (who lives nearby) wrote to the Evening Standard at how angry and shocked he was to hear about this ‘inhuman’ decision by the council and said it’s akin to Stalinism.

  35. turnip_ghost says:

    When I woke up this morning I had a thought. A scary one at that. I’d tweeted it but wondered what you guys would think (I’m also not sure if this is the right place for it but since we’re talking about a No vote, it seems as good a place as any!)

    Let’s say Scotland votes No in 2014.
    The Tories then put in their manifesto for the 2015 UK election that they’ll reduce the block grant by, say, a third and will re-reserve powers from Holyrood.

    They then win thanks to SE number of votes.

    What happens then…? We didn’t vote for it but it is DIRECTLY affecting us…

  36. Craig P says:

    Your pal Joyce is banged up again, well done, you must be proud.
     
    At least this proves once and for all (though I had no doubt previously) that Grahamski and Eric Joyce are different people.

  37. Iain says:

    @Craig P
    ‘Grahamski and Eric Joyce are different people’
     
    I think Eric Joyce is at least two different people!

  38. Geoff Huijer says:

    Excellent article Catriona.
    Surely anyone with an open mind can digest the information
    and decide if these are things they agree with (and vote ‘no’)
    or if they disagree (and vote ‘Yes’).
    It beggars belief that some Unionists seem to think this is
    a list which is ‘negative campaigning’ or ‘scaremongering’.
    I don’t believe that they truly believe this is the case; surely
    it is some sort of denial akin to ‘if I say it isn’t happening enough
    then that means it isn’t’.
    And on the subject of denial; I hope Eric Joyce manages
    to get himself sorted out. It would appear he has some sort
    of alcohol problem although that is for him to determine
    and recognise if it is so. Time for him to concentrate on
    himself, methinks. I wish him the best.
     

  39. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Grahamski-
    Have to hand it to you mister, you are consistent. Just like Eric Joyce.
    And let’s not get overwhelmed with sympathy for the hapless Joyce – I’ve heard more than one commentator, including Canavan, say that ‘he needs help’ etc. The stark fact is that many people in this country have a drink ‘problem’ and are angry about this, that or t’other, but don’t go around punching folk and wrestling with police.
    If Joyce really does need ‘therapy’, he could start by fessing-up to his role in the propaganda war prior to the occupation of Iraq – who assigned him to cover the BBC Scotland ‘region’? what inducements (if any)were offered? and who did he liaise with in Queen Mgt Drive? 

  40. Art1001 says:

    Fantastic article.
    I think the NO Scotland team, who are the real experts in negative campaigning, are really alarmed about this ‘what happens if there is NO’ starts to gain traction and they should be. I have already seen one false flag troll in the Scotsman trying to deflect this argument. They will be desperate to keep this subject out of the debate.

    Our scary stories are based on truth as opposed to lies as in their case. That makes it even more dangerous to them. We should be attacking on all fronts and prepared to hit below the belt. Negative campaigning on its own can win. In combination with the positive YES strategy it might just do it. We need a high profile bad cop as well as good cops (Jenkins, Nicola). Any suggestions/volunteers?
     

  41. Training Day says:

    A simple, concise leaflet with ten top reasons to vote Yes on one side and the ten main consequences of voting No on the other must be sent to every household in Scotland.  And battered home through a widespread advertising campaign, billboards etc.
    Last week, I received an email from Blair Jenkins and Yes Scotland which contained a picture of a kitten.  Sometimes I wonder if I’m just too negative.

  42. velofello says:

    @ scaredy cat : There are 40 items listed by Catriona, and others contributed by Ephermeral Deception. You are free to use whatever items listed as a means of conversing with people on the dangers of a NO vote. I’m not a hyperactive campaigner but my experience is that raising macro-economic issues such as Trident, or the Ofgen’s excessive transmission charges on generated power doesn’t hold the public’s attention so much as domestic finance issues. My line of talk is that anyone who doesn’t have the prospect of a pension in addition to the state pension, nor access to health insurance is going to rue the day that they failed to vote Yes in the referendum.
    Instance the bedroom tax an astonishingly mean spirited concept. Seems to me that the bedroom tax is the solution to a London housing problem and hard cheese for the rest of the UK inhabitants. A government capable of imposing that legislation is capable of imposing a damn sight worse 
     
    First rate contribution Catriona. 

  43. Dcanmore says:

    @turnip_ghost
    Labour in collusion with the Tories/Lib Dems will blame all of Scotland’s ills on the SNP, while looking to retake the Scottish parliament as a foothold for revival, while ramping up their pro-UK neo-liberal rhetoric and they will be backed up with a ferocious MSM/BBC looking to beat down the SNP forever. Make no mistake if there’s a NO vote Labour in collusion with the Tories will be wanting the SNP extinguished and the Scots Parliament reduced to a council assembly assuring that an SNP Government with aspirations through referenda will never happen again. There can never be a threat like that to the British State and The Establishment again. The Scots will pay dearly just like in the Thatcher days of the 1980s when the chippy Jocks refused to vote for her. There is democracy, but then there’s British democracy!

  44. MajorBloodnok says:

    Cath said: What do the NO campaign have? This is the UK. We reckon it’s OK. So suck it up and STFU whinging Jocks. If folk in England have to take this so do you.
     
    The thing is the folk in England don’t have to take it, but the main stream press, leading consecutive and not un-willing UK government by the nose, have over the past few decades created a pervasive consensus that this is the only choice that is or could possibly be available; that this is normal.
     
    We in Scotland however, know different, and will vote next year to demonstrate that a successful and just society can flourish even in hard economic circumstances.  And we will take the opportunity to reveal the right-wing utilitarian neo-liberal plutocratic consensus for what it is, a lie, like all the other lies that the Unionists are bombarding us with. 

  45. JamesL says:

    Meanwhile Scotland is once more suffering – uniquely – from the hideous consequences of wealth. And it seems, according to Kevin Forbes, of ‘Oil and Gas People’, that these ‘problems’ are arising as a direct consequence of unionist negativity – so now we’re in some kind of twisted feedback loop…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-21792466

  46. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So, given up on the positive campaign then?”

    Nope. But once in a while it’s always interesting to try walking in the other side’s shoes. Feel free to try the experience by spending a single day being positive, just for fun.

  47. Dcanmore says:

    @JamesL …
     
    An interesting quote from Kevin Forbes …
    “There is a lot of press around North Sea Oil being in decline, but the truth is there is still 30 to 40 years left in the North Sea and that estimate increases all the time as new fields are discovered and come online. Anyone looking to get into the industry now will enjoy a career that will last their lifetime easily.” And that’s from an industry insider.

  48. James Morton says:

    We can be negative to accentuate the positive as Mr Crosby once said. (sort of, but you get the point) The real kicker is that our negative is based on cold hard facts, their negatives are purely speculative and utter nonsense.

  49. Tris says:

    “…as far as I know control of Scottish Water is devolved and wouldn’t be directly affected by the referendum result…”
    It might be worth considering that a NO vote, followed by a Labour win in the UK and a Labour win in Scotland, would put us in a position where Miliband (or whoever) would control the devolved Scottish parliament  rather like Blair did in the early days of devolution. Certainly the Liberals were a stabilising factor then in a coalition, but their place in politics has shrunk somewhat since these heady days and I can’t see them having any pull at all in a coalition in Edinburgh. All we’d get is wee Willie Rennie as DFM! (Heaven help us).
     
    So, without taking the control of water back to London, they could still control it through their secretary of state.
     
    Of course it is possible that a Labour government in independent Scotland  might be influenced by a Labour government in independent England and Wales, but they probably could not be controlled.

  50. Tom says:

    Willie Rennie on the radio this morning was challenged on the basis that the “No” campaign had no coherent message.  He responded by listing all of the fragmented parts, from Devo Max and Devo Plus to “Ruth Davidson is now talking about federalism”.
    They are stuffed. We just need to get the message out there.

  51. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So, without taking the control of water back to London, they could still control it through their secretary of state.”

    For sure. But in the context of this feature that’s a danger of not voting SNP in Holyrood elections (whether devolved or independent), not a danger of voting No in the referendum.

  52. seoc says:

    Fine article, Catriona.
    “”So we have to assume this is what will happen with a NO – Scotland will be pulled into line with England, as all in the NO campaign are suggesting””
    Or – more likely dragged behind a line dictated by England. 

  53. Moujick says:

    How’s about  this for a wee one you missed…benefits as loans for young people:-
     
    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/11/26/tory-mp-wants-unemployment-benefits-to-become-a-repayable-loan/

  54. Braco says:

    OT here, but would anybody know if it’s possible to post a jpg with a comment? I have no idea if it is possible or not, but I would find it very useful to simplify a lot of my written posts. If anyone has any ideas I would be very grateful. Thanks

  55. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    We looked into this before and it seems to be impossible for users. I can do it, though, so if you post a link to the image I should be able to turn it into an embedded one.

  56. Braco says:

    Rev Stu, thanks for that. How would I go about that, say from a digital photo? Sorry for being so technothick and thanks for taking the time to help.

  57. Chic McGregor says:

    Standing ovation.

  58. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    We Will also be ridiculed Internationally.
    In the event of a NO vote I will be looking to emigrate. Seriously. 
     

  59. Doug Daniel says:

     Tom says:

    Willie Rennie on the radio this morning was challenged on the basis that the “No” campaign had no coherent message.  He responded by listing all of the fragmented parts, from Devo Max and Devo Plus to “Ruth Davidson is now talking about federalism”.
    They are stuffed. We just need to get the message out there.
     
    It was absolutely ridiculous, wasn’t it? I was half-expecting him to say “the SNP want independence, so that proves we’re leading the home rule agenda”. Not to mention the fact that most of it pre-dates the Lib Dems’ most recent federalism commission…
     
    The Lib Dems are completely irrelevant to this issue. BetterTogether seems to be a campaign funded by Tories, populated by New Labour types, with Willie Rennie given the privileged role of being the cannon fodder for news programmes. At the launch day, they must have said “who doesn’t mind making a complete arse of themselves on a regular basis?” and Willie stuck his hand up with much enthusiasm.

     

  60. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Rev Stu, thanks for that. How would I go about that, say from a digital photo?”

    What you’ll need to do is upload it from your PC or phone or whatever to a free image-hosting service like Twitpic or Tinypic or Flickr. They’ll talk you through the process, then all you need to do is post the link.

  61. ianbrotherhood says:

    Willie Rennie? Challenged?
    Let’s count the ways…

  62. Scott says:

     
    You’ve got to love the misguided pathetic juvenile comment.
     

  63. Braco says:

    Rev Stu, many thanks. Will do.

  64. Stevie says:

    “”””””scaredy cat. says:
    15 March, 2013 at 9:04 am

    I’m afraid this list doesn’t do us any favours. Some of it might be accurate but other parts are simply speculation and dare I say it ‘scare tactics’. “”””””””””””

    These are all correct — I follow the news and the machinations of Westminster in detail and in depth and all you have o do is a little search and you’ll get the appropriate facts.

  65. Albert Herring says:

    However when you link to this on twitter, NoScotland UKOK types just deny it’s happening and call it scaremongering.

  66. Megsmaw says:

    I was watching the excellent Charlie Brooker last night in a repeat of How TV Ruined Your Life. The topic was fear, and how TV has been ramping up the scare stories and bogeymen to make us all conditioned to obey and toe the line from a young age. All very relevant to the BBC and MSM and their continuing bias. I urge anyone who hasn’t seen it to watch it, it just hits the nail on the head.
     

  67. Chic McGregor says:

     
    Stevie says:
    15 March, 2013 at 3:21 pm

    “”””””scaredy cat. says:
    15 March, 2013 at 9:04 am
    I’m afraid this list doesn’t do us any favours. Some of it might be accurate but other parts are simply speculation and dare I say it ‘scare tactics’. “”””””””””””
    These are all correct — I follow the news and the machinations of Westminster in detail and in depth and all you have o do is a little search and you’ll get the appropriate facts.
     
    Agree Stevie.  And because they are factual and not invented like the U-stuff, it becomes a matter of democratic duty, rather than tactics, to make the electorate aware of them.  Only question is one of timing?
     
    I still feel we are on the 2nd “Hold!” from the movie we dare not name.

  68. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Megsmaw-
    I suspect a lot of people, like me, enjoy watching Brooker because he’s always looks so miserable it sort of cheers you up a wee bit. I know it’s probably an act, but he does it very well.
    If it is’t an act, god help him – we, at least, have a chance to free ourselves of these people, and it’s a realistic opportunity worth fighting for. What chance has poor Charlie? He has to wait for the regeneration of the Left in England? Methinks we’ll have been through another few popes before that happens.

  69. Scott Douglas says:

    Good thread this.
     
    It’s about time we had some negative campaigning.  The Bitter mob put out relentless scaremongering and there is nothing wrong with fighting fire with fire.  This referendum needs to be won at all costs because Scotland’s future existence is at stake.

  70. ianbrotherhood says:

    It’s just struck me that, right now, we ARE living in a ‘post-No’ landscape – we did it twice before, didn’t we?

  71. cirsium says:

    @Chic McGregor, 15 March 5pm
    “I still feel we are on the 2nd “Hold!” from the movie we dare not name.”
    You’re not alone.

  72. Indion says:

    Great post.
    Since when did the truth become anything other than positive bar in the minds of the Unitarist conspired negative narrative?
    Freedom from …. is freedom too ….
    Vote No, be subjected to this …. Vote Yes, be an author of this ….
    Jesu, if they had but one between them, even the present No’s would recognise voting Yes is a no-brainer, because if they didn’t support the confederal outcome of the subsequent inter-governmental negotiations on shared sovereignty in the mutual interests of all people in the present UK (see Edinburgh agreement), they could still vote for the party/parties in favour of returning to the same old, same auld Unitarist Union who had not gone native by the time of our scheduled 2016 elections.

  73. The Man in the Jar says:

    @cirisum
    @Chick MaGregor
    You’re never alone in a schiltron.

  74. Indion says:

    Re Wee Duggies (cough) intervention, all I read was special pleading printed on the white flag of surrender waved by a given up ghost of authentic Labour’s past that can only now be found within the broad church of the SNP’s collective thinking on what’s best for everyone in Scotland as antidote to the Westminster and Whitehall cures for the ills of their own making at the hands of their erstwhile paymasters and fellow travellers.

  75. cath says:

    “they could still vote for the party/parties in favour of returning to the same old, same auld Unitarist Union”
     
    Funny you should say that. I realised something in the pub tonight, possibly as a result of reading this thread earlier then subconsciously processing it over several whiskies…
     
    There are some things that scare me about independence. But pretty much all of them are variations on the theme of “what if nothing changes?” What if we end up just as bad as the UK now? What if the same old Westminster parties are somehow able to keep control? What if the media remains the same?” A YES gives hope – and probability – of real change.
     
    Beyond those, my only niggling worries are things like whether we’re ready to cope with the boom independence will probably create, and the influx of people, and whether we can have good enough social justice policies in place to benefit all (which again goes along with “what if nothing changes”)

  76. Rigel says:

    Wait, why is new nuclear power stations on this list?  We should want that

  77. Adrian B says:

    2 SE England by-election results – Both rock-solid Tory seats.
    Further major by elections 6 weeks away.
    The Conservatives lose one to UKIP and the second to Lib Dems. Labour trail on both.
     
    http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2013/03/15/miserable-night-for-the-tories-as-they-lose-council-seats-in-rock-solid-areas-to-ukip-and-the-lds/

  78. Indion says:

    cath at 12:13am
    Some things wouldn’t change overnight: evolution isn’t revolution.
    But the permutations of wavering minds do underscore the need for our Declaration of Independence – presently scheduled for Mar 2016 – to be accompanied by a transitional constitution that is itself underpinned by the requirement for a super majority before any fundamental change following the May 2016 election to secure Independence.  

  79. archie says:

    been reading some of the rubbish hear and all I can say is if Scotland is such a basket case let her go ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the way I explain it is 4 people stay in a block of flats and there is one in the block that is subsidised every month by the rest the thing is the one that is subsidised wants to leave the block of flats but the other 3 tell them no ???????????
    why ?? as I say why not let Scotland leaves and they are happy no money to the country of Scotland so every one in England is happy too
    so why ?? come on some one tell me why please !!!!

  80. BillyBigbaws says:

    @ Rigel,

    Why would we want nuclear power? It’s far too expensive to the taxpayer with all the subsidies that go into the construction of the plants, maintenance, storage of waste, etc. – plus all the added costs of security – and it’s not all that great an energy producer either.

    Remember when they used to say a bit of fissile material the size of a walnut could power the Queen Mary round the world three times? We’d all have free energy forever?

    They were talking kiech. Even nuclear companies realise it’s too expensive too build new plants – they won’t do it unless a government promises them unlimited funding in advance. It’s a busted flush.

  81. GP Walrus says:

    40 Shades of Nay.

  82. Heather Wilson says:

    Yep this all needs to be said and thanks. These BT lot have been allowed to scare monger all they like with no restrictions and very little being done about their negative abuse being hurled at the YES campaign. 
    The nice painter doing my kitchen this weekend is a ‘YES’ man, (we laughed at that) and I have just given him the web addresses for WOS and newsnet etc, he said he was thinking of setting up his own campaign in desperation with all the bias for the BT lot filling the airwaves etc. So now he will be able to be part of the discussion, he was obviously feeling left out, hopefully he will also pass this onto others.
    On another note, we have stopped listening to programmes like ‘The Now Show’ on bbc radio4, sick of the very openly anti Scottish ( and Independence) and often anti SNP jibes being made, in fact the whole show has recently been utterly and completely dumbed down. That’s the bbc now, who knows what it will sound like in the future.
    People are desperate for the facts about Scottish Independence, what is planned should there be a ‘YES’ vote and what is planned should there be a ‘no’ vote.
    I also wondered if leaflets might be a way to get some info out there, many people do not have the internet, many don’t know about the good info sites available anyway. We artists might need to get something out there, somehow, but galleries are mostly all showing pretty flowers or old masters works, so that is not an option. Thinking hats on…
    And, as our painter says, ‘we have nothing to lose with a YES vote’.
     

  83. BillyBigbaws says:

    Heather if you are an artist and you want to get things out to a wide audience the National Collective site is good, and it’s pro-independence.

    The Yes campaign have been putting out leaflets and doorstepping, but I don’t know how organised or coordinated it is nationally. When they said they wanted a grassroots campaign I didn’t realise how much they meant it.

    I’ve still had no leaflets through the door myself, but I do get letters and emails from YesScotland in the name of Blair Jenkins now and again. We do need to hit harder and more often, but… a lot of folk who are undecided are being really put off by the No campaign already. They are doing a lot of our work for us.

  84. scaredy cat says:

    I agree with much of what is written here, but I would not share this post, unlike most of the other stuff I read on this site. Like it or not, many of those leaning towards a ‘No’ vote will baulk at this, because it LOOKS too scary to be true, therefore they believe it MUST be an exaggeration. 
    I am happy to talk about the stuff that affects the entire UK (bedroom tax, human rights, EU referendum etc), but the privatisation of the NHS, police and the introduction of fees for students doesn’t ring true with them (even if it could happen).
    I have found that there is a worrying ‘I’m all right Jack’ attitude, BECAUSE of the benefits we get from the Scottish Parliament. One person I know has said that none of the bad stuff imposed by Westminster affects them. This person is a student (no fees), employed part-time (not claiming benefits) and too young to worry about pensions etc. This person told me, everything is fine as it is, so why change it. Try to tell them that it is fragile and they just don’t get it. They are part of the generation that has only ever known there to be a Scottish Parliament, so they take it for granted.
    Would any government dare to claw back what we voted for. Who knows, but suggest it, and they look at you as though you are mad.
     

  85. Holebender says:

    Tell your friend that the changes will be FORCED by budget cuts from Westminster if we don’t go independent.

  86. Albert Herring says:

    “Tell your friend that the changes will be FORCED by budget cuts ”
    and the Scottish Government will surely get the blame.

  87. Clydebuilt says:

    Heather Wilson says
    People are desperate for the facts about Scottish Independence,
     
    http://www.ushmm.org/propaganda/resources/

    United States Holocaust National Memorial Museum

    How Does Propaganda Work

    The propagandist transmits only information geared to strengthen his or her case, and consciously omits detrimental information.
     
    Found this last week. It;s exactly what the BBC are up to
    They interview the SNP early in the day and spend all day editing the clips till the final version is finally aired on Reporting Scotland at 18.30

    You can witness this in action by listenning to the radio news bulletins hourly. They start off giving total contents of interview , by 18.30 the parts of the interview beneficial to the YES message have GONE! 
     
     

  88. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Clydebuilt-
    It would be interesting to know what academia is doing by way of monitoring this stuff. The Glasgow Media Group must, surely, have students at all levels watching this carefully? I presume Stirling still has a very active media-studies dept. What are they up to?
    When will they start getting involved, letting us know what their take is on it all? We need to hear from people like Profs. David Miller, Greg Philo etc. Not two years hence, when it’s all done and dusted. We need truly impartial, empirical analysis – the models they’ve been developing for the past thirty or more years are well-respected, extensively peer-reviewed, and even the most jaundiced BT fanatic would find it difficult to dismiss them.
    WoS, NNS and BellaC have all done some great analysis, but the imprimatur of prominent universities carries a lot of weight for many folk – let’s hear what they’ve been doing, please?
    Anyone know?

  89. catriona moffat says:

    I can appreciate what scaredycat is saying. However, being one of many who are sickened by baseless scaremongering by the no camp, who just make stuff up as they go along, coupled to a seemingly spineless attitude displayed by sections of the media who seem to have thrown their journalistic credentials in the bin, I wouldn’t dream of compiling a list like this unless it was backed up by hard facts and evidence.
    That is, identifiable sources that refer to initiatives that are currently implemented, along with those that are being planned for the second half of the coalition term.
    If it was me, I would share this information, and have done so, because by not doing so, we’re failing to give people credit for being able to read the facts and evidence and make up their own minds.
    Yes, it’s scary but surely the future under a no vote is shaping up to be a terrifying reality.
     

  90. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Catriona Moffat-
    The ‘list’ is certainly scary enough to be going on with, but what’s even scarier is seeing people trying to defend it.
    You really have to wonder what’s going on inside their heids – it can’t be plain idiocy, otherwise these people wouldn’t be able to hold down any kind of a job. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that they KNOW what they’re doing.
    To any decent human being, what’s happening in this country right now is an affront to everything they’ve ever been told is good, honourable, humane…etc etc… 
    And that’s, perhaps, why these characters feel emboldened – they really feel they can get away with this, that it’s too unbellievable for any of us ‘plebs’ to react, that we’re frogs happily being boiled.
    We’re entering the territory of the sociopathic narcissist – so long as they get away with it, they’ll feel stronger, more assured. Can’t help thinking, cui bono…cui bono…and they must be thinking exactly the same, hoping for some ‘result’ down the line…
    What a wake-up they’re about to get. Big-time. The nexus they willingly became part of is about to be shattered beyond recognition, but they daren’t deviate from the path they were assured would give them all they desired – they know nothing else, no other way.
    They’re scum, pure and simple. 
    Scum, eventually, always gets scraped away. And binned.
    Thanks for a great post Catriona – I’ve sent it to everyone I know.
    Slainte.

  91. Lara says:

    I think if there is a No win vote i shall be leaving the country, this list makes for scary reading, its hard enough just now, what will it be like for our children and children’s children?

  92. douglas clark says:

    ianbrotherhood,
     
    That is more or less, what I think too. Including your praise for Catriona’s post.
     
    Wee cavil.
     
    “To any decent human being, what’s happening in this country right now is an affront to everything they’ve ever been told is good, honourable, humane…etc etc”
     
    “everything they know is good” would be better than “everything they’ve ever been told is good”….
     
    It is not a semantic point. It is that what we are taught tends to go against our better natures.
     
    Anyway you might have been on the Lambrini again and I am certainly  on the Tennents Lager.
     
    G’night.
     
     

  93. ianbrotherhood says:

    @DC-
    Aye, you’re right.
    Tonight I have mostly been drinking Sainsbury’s Own Cider, but I did have a fly can of T’s lager which I judiciously spun to create a mild snakebite.
    Sorted!
    Cheers – hic! – and cheers again – bottoms up to Catriona Moffat.
     

  94. catriona moffat says:

    Thanks ianbrotherhood.
    In some way could this list be the antithesis of the oft cited propaganda technique “The Big Lie” where you make sure to tell a BIG lie because people will simply disbelieve you have the impudence to make it up and subsequently fully embrace the deception?
    If so, the question then becomes:
    What happens if you happen to tell “The Big Truth”?
    Will that be disbelieved?
    I don’t think so – with 18 or 19 months to get this job done, nothing can stand in the way of the truth if we all put our minds to it, little by little.
     

  95. Adrian B says:

    @ Ianbrotherhood,
     
    Very good comment, its modern Britian, its what better together want.
    There has been quite an uproar about the Bedroom Tax, see Twitter feed:
    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bedroomtax&src=hash
     
    the Lib Dem party activists at Party Conference in Dundee:
    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/6959-scots-lib-dems-vote-against-party-leadership-on-bedroom-tax
     
    Labour Party activists are equally angry at their parties position, but that seems to be getting buried for some reason? I really hope that a greater part of the population seriously wake up to what is happening. God help us all if they don’t, sleepwalking into a continuation of the Union is not in the best interests of society, nor will it be good for Scotland as a whole.
     
    This is it – 2014 or Never. 

  96. Albert Herring says:

    “Labour Party activists are equally angry at their parties position”
    What the Tories are doing now to social tenants, Labour did in 2008 to private tenants.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Housing_Allowance#Bedroom_Requirement

  97. NSTST says:

    Lol, and you Nationalists love to accuse pro-UK campaigners of Scaremongering!

    Lets look at a few points:

    1) The end of the NHS.
    What a load of rubbish. Whilst it is true some elements of the English NHS are being privatised, this will not affect Scotland since healthcare is a devolved matter.
    2) The end of Universal healthcare free at the point of use
    Again, you are digging away at the English NHS when you know very well that healthcare is devolved.
    The Scottish NHS is not without its faults either. I could easily trawl the Internet and post lots of articles which critisize the Scottish NHS if I wanted…

    3) Privatisation of the Police
    Again, Policing is a devolved matter.

    4) Thousands made homeless by the Bedroom tax
    Well, whilst I agree with the general principle, I think the UK government should loosen the policy further. They have already made a few concessions and I expect a few more before the legislation is passed.
    5) The Rich getting Richer
    Ah, always trust Socialism to attack people with ambition and critisize the wealth creators in our society.
    As Margaret Thatcher famously said:
    “He would rather the poor were poorer provided the rich were less rich”
    and
    “The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other peoples money”

    Just look what is happening in France with all the business owners and wealth creators leaving the country due to the rediculous tax rates being imposed on them.

    6) Highest child poverty in the Western World
    I accept that the UK has some very high child poverty rates in certain areas. Glasgow in particular drags the UK and Scotland higher up the list.
    The thing is, Glasgow has been left-wing/Labour for decades and that has not cured poverty. There is no way to be sure Independence will improve things further. The idea of throwing even more public money at the problem is fanciful.
    Oh, and claiming the UK has the worst child poverty in the Western world is wrong.
    I suggest you read the Unicef report which discusses European child poverty:
    http://www.unicef.org.uk/Documents/Publications/RC10-measuring-child-poverty.pdf
    There is clearly room for improvement, but to claim the UK is the worst in the western world is false.

    7) another 300000 public sector losses.
    Well, that article is UK-wide so that figure does not directly relate to the Scottish public sector (of which most is devolved anyway).
    Scotland still has a bloated public sector compared to the rUK. Do you suggest Scotland increases its public sector further?

    8) No votes for the unemployed
    Lol now this is really scraping the barrel. You are quoting someones opinion and stating it like a fact. Utterly worthless and misleading point.

    Ok, thats all for now folks. Keep up the good work!

  98. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What a load of rubbish. Whilst it is true some elements of the English NHS are being privatised, this will not affect Scotland since healthcare is a devolved matter.”

    You clearly didn’t bother to read any of the actual links. If NHS England is privatised, public spending on it will vanish, which will slash billions off the Scottish block grant under the Barnett formula, with the obvious resulting catastrophic impact on the Scottish NHS.

    Get back to us on the rest when you know what you’re talking about, or at least when you’ve had the basic courtesy to read the article properly.

  99. NSTST says:

    “If NHS England is privatised, public spending on it will vanish, which will slash billions off the Scottish block grant under the Barnett formula, with the obvious resulting catastrophic impact on the Scottish NHS”
    Oh right, so you think the UK government will simply slash billions off the Scottish block grant and expect to get away with it?

    Are you stating this as a fact, or merely your opinion based on the SNPs and NewsNets interpretation over what may or may not happen in years to come?

  100. NSTST says:

    “If NHS England is privatised, public spending on it will vanish, which will slash billions off the Scottish block grant under the Barnett formula, with the obvious resulting catastrophic impact on the Scottish NHS”
    Are you suggesting that the UK government will take billions away from the Scottish government and expect to get away with it? I doubt it somehow.

    Also, are you stating your point as fact, or merely your opinion based on the SNP and NewsNets interpretation of what may or may not happen in years to come?

  101. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Are you suggesting that the UK government will take billions away from the Scottish government and expect to get away with it?”

    I’m not “suggesting” anything. That’s what WILL happen. That’s how the Barnett formula works – the Scottish block grant is a fixed percentage of English expenditure. Please at least make an effort to have a clue.

  102. NSTST says:

    The English NHS will never be fully privatised, they would never get away with it.

    Even if some of the NHS work is privately contracted, it would still be state funded so health funding will still be accounted for.

    Look, I accept that if the English NHS has its spending slashed, it will have a proportional impact on the block grant. Though what you seem to be suggesting is a total disintegration of the NHS, which is clearly nonsense.

    The NHS isnt going anywhere.

  103. Baheid says:

    @NSTST
    Your naivety is quite breathtaking, your cooperate friends are not making enough money by ripping us of with drug etc supplies, they need it all.
    Suggest you look at our cousins in the USA.
     
    This maybe of interest to you:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/02/doctors-bemoan-nhs-privatisation-by-stealth

  104. NSTST says:

    An article from a leftwing newspaper does not mean the NHS is about to be abolished.

    Regardless of the ups and downs and different methods of implementation between England and Scotland, the NHS will always be free at point of use.
    Its simply scaremongering to claim voting NO will lead to the demise of the NHS. Its something we all hold dear and all politicians know it would be electoral suicide to kill it off.

  105. mogabee says:

     
    “…. Free at point of use.”
     
     Which only means that to visit your GP could be classed as ” first point “

  106. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Its simply scaremongering to claim voting NO will lead to the demise of the NHS. Its something we all hold dear and all politicians know it would be electoral suicide to kill it off.”

    So your argument is simply blind faith that the Tories won’t obey their own ideology? Awesome.

    I really don’t have time to sit here all day pointing you at 500 different links listing in extreme detail just how advanced the plans to totally privatise the NHS are. I’d suggest some Google terms, but the evidence so far leads me to conclude you’d just put your blind eye to the telescope and refuse to believe them anyway, or dismiss them as the rantings of “lefties”.

    I’ll throw you one to get you started anyway, though, because I’m a sucker for trying to show people the truth even when it’s hopeless.

    http://www.gponline.com/News/article/1172376/New-regulations-force-privatisation-NHS-senior-GP-warns/

  107. rabb says:

    NSTST,
    Let’s make this simple. The more “cost savings” that are found in public spending in England, the less we receive in our block grant. That is FACT!
    The fact that we pay in more than we receive has no bearing on this calculation.
    I have no issue at all that where costs can be reduced we should but not when these are trimmed from the poor and vulnerable for the benefit of the rich. And don’t dare insult my intelligence and attempt to argue that point.
     
    The less we have to spend, the more cuts we have to make to things like healthcare, education, policing & welfare (such as free care for the elderly, free prescriptions, free travel for pensioners). 
     
    We have a government in Scotland (and i am NOT an SNP member or supporter) that is holding back the tide. These services and benefits that are all entirely affordable WILL be in jeopardy under Westminster rule.

    As much as it pains you, we are a very different people in Scotland. We have social democratic values that our neigbours down south don’t (or to a far lesser extent). 
     
    To anyone reading this that is an undecided. Please think carefully about which way you will vote. Scotland is more than capable of paying for these services. Even David Cameron himself concedes that we can stand on or own two feet.
     
    Scotland has already proven since devolution that it is much better at running everything that is currently devolved to it (health, education etc) than Westminster does for the rest of th UK.
    Pease think carefully about how you vote. You can vote yes to protect what we have with the real opportunity to enhance it still further or you can vote no with the promise of nothing and the reality of spending cuts that will hurt our people hard.
     
     
    You have a choice so please make it count.

  108. Albert Herring says:

    “Oh right, so you think the UK government will simply slash billions off the Scottish block grant and expect to get away with it?”
    This is already happening.

  109. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Rabb-
    Hear, hear, and thrice I say it – hear the man!
    Well said Rabb. Cheers.

  110. Morag says:

    Rabb, you don’t support the SNP?  Who would you like to see in Holyrood right now, then?
     
    I remember April 2011.  I had campaigned for the SNP before, often, in a spirit of doing my little best to advance the cause of independence.  Just hoped to make another small gain.  This time it was different.
     
    I was absolutely terrified that Labour would win and we’d have Iain Gray as FM.  The very idea of having a party in Holyrood again that was taking its orders from Westminster, and with the general competence standards of Grayman and Wee Wendy, filled me with genuine horror.  It wasn’t for independence that I pounded the pavements and the farm tracks, it was for the continuation of genuine devolution.  The voters seemed to see it too, if perhaps at the last minute, and agreed with me in the sort of numbers my wildest dreams didn’t dare visit.
     
    Now, I’m even more terrified of the consequences of a No vote.  I hope and trust the same good sense will overcome everyone next year, and they’ll see it too.

  111. NSTST says:

    Ill tell you what:

    If I concede that “efficiency savings” in England will indeed have a proportional effect in the overall Scottish block grant, will you concede that claiming this will lead to “the end of the NHS” is an exaggeration?

  112. Morag says:

    “If” you concede?  Is that the case or isn’t it?  RevStu’s answer to your question obviously doesn’t affect reality.

  113. NSTST says:

    Can we also move to another point:

    3) Privitisation of the police.
    Can someone please explain how the Scottish police force could become privatised in the event of a NO vote?

  114. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If I concede that “efficiency savings” in England will indeed have a proportional effect in the overall Scottish block grant, will you concede that claiming this will lead to “the end of the NHS” is an exaggeration?”

    That’s not what anyone’s claiming. This isn’t about “efficiency savings”, it’s about the ideological desire and intent of the Tories to privatise the NHS (and everything else humanly possible) on principle.

  115. NSTST says:

    Look Stu, we are going in circles here.
    I poured scorn on the claim that a NO vote means the end of the NHS. You argued back that a reduction in healthcare spending in England will lead to a reduction in the Scottish block grant.

    I stand by my point that its an exaggeration to claim a NO vote will lead to the end of the NHS. To be honest, its a daft claim.
    I am aware of the Tories fondness of Privitisation, but just because elements of the English NHS may be contracted out to private companies does not mean government funding will stop.

    Also, can you please answer my question regarding why the Scottish police will become privatised if Scotland votes NO?

  116. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I stand by my point that its an exaggeration to claim a NO vote will lead to the end of the NHS.”

    Nobody said that either. The piece said that by voting No you’re voting to stay in the UK, and staying in the UK means the privatisation of the NHS. Even if Labour were to win in 2015, and even were they to be fundamentally any different to the Tories, the Tories can pretty much have the job finished by then.

  117. Cath says:

    will you concede that claiming this will lead to “the end of the NHS” is an exaggeration?””
     
    The NHS as we understand it in England has already ended bar the shouting. The new health and social care act opens it up to the full force of EU competition law – something Westminster absolutely did not have to do. Now it has of course, it can kill two birds with one stone and blame the horrible EU when people wake up to the reality of what that means. Which will be, btw, an end to free at the point of use services. Not overnight, and not with fanfare, but by gradual erosion of any kind of decent quality, timely care within the “free” part, which will become a safety net. The NHS will look much like dentistry did when opened up similarly.
     
    And yes, this and other privatisations will hammer the Scottish budget which is tied to that spending, not to how much taxes we pay, our resources, how much we put in or anything else. Also all three Westminster parties are dedicated to removing the differentiation happening between Scotland and England. They hate it. So following a No vote we either keep voting SNP and create constant and fruitless battles between them and Westminster, with us running ever harder to try not to fall back ever further. Or we end up with Labour/Libs in again and they’ll take things the same way as England.

  118. muttley79 says:

    @NSTST
     
    What do you think Milliband’s “One Nation” politics is all about?  Do you honestly think it means genuine differences between Scotland and England in the event of a No vote?  The Tories want to continue with austerity until at least 2018.  That means another 5 years at least of the Scottish block grant being reduced, on top of what has already been slashed. 
     
    In addition, the No parties support the continued use of the block grant for Scotland.  Their rejection of a second question means they have no genuine commitment to more powers for Scotland.  As Cath has said the No parties want to end the differences in policy between Scotland and England.  This is because they are Unionists.  They do not think Scotland should benefit from her national resources at all.  The police and the NHS are being privatised in England.  That is the fate for Scotland if we vote No.  This is due to austerity and Barnett formula reductions in our public spending.  As well as this, we are increasingly being pulled out of the EU as part of the British state.     

  119. Waldo16 says:

    what a scary list of disasters if the brainwashed vote no

  120. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @Rev
     
    And the byline of that article shows they are seriously thinking about charging patients for the food they eat while in hospital too!
     
    Every cut means more cuts to the barnett formula.

  121. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @NSTST
     
    Westminster are planning to cut £20 Billion from the Health Budget in England. This would lead to a reduction in the Barnett formula of £1.98 Billion for Scotland.
     
    That’s the equivalent of 17.8% of our entire 2012 health budget.
     
    While its true we dont have to take all of that from the health budget, we do have to take it from somewhere and given that Health is the biggest devolved spend, its not likely that we can protect the NHS.
     
    Heres the biggest 5 items we spend our devolved money on:-
     

    Health – £11.1 billion
    Education – £7.7 billion
    Transport – £2.6 billion
    Public order and safety – £2.6 billion
    Housing and community Amenities – £1.7 billion

     
    So as you can see, if we lose £1.98 billion then we will definately be cutting into the NHS budget. That means an end to free prescriptions, free care for the elderly, cuts to staffing, increasing restrictions on access to new drugs, reduced quality, increased waiting times.
     
    Its a double whammy when you add onto that the increase in demand as ill thought out welfare reforms add to the burden from increased poverty, disease and the social ills that accompany them.
     
    But the truly alarming thing is that the £20 Billion they are planning on saving is ONLY in the NHS in England!
     
    What is the impact on Barnett when you start adding on the cuts and privatisations to Education, Policing, local government and transport for England.
     
    These Austerity measures are SO SEVERE that they WILL make the principle of the NHS free at the point of need unworkable.
     
    A normal country could simply raise taxes as an option… BUT WE ALREADY RAISE ENOUGH TAXES… we just dont have access to them!

  122. archie says:

    hi all this means only one thing vote YES or sink with this uk government that’s it sink or swim

  123. Seasick Dave says:

    NSTST

    You YES yet?

  124. rob devon says:

    deluded crap. why does the owner of this website live in Bath South West England? and spout off about how great Scotland will be outside the union yet not live in that part of the United Kingdom, typical Scots Nat fraud hypocrite and deluded w***ker

  125. Greannach says:

    Reading this on 16 February 2016, I’m amazed to see how accurate the predictions are. Still, we got what the majority wanted. I hope they’re enjoying it all.



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