The devil’s advocacy
Posted on
November 05, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
“Hi there,” writes an alert and cheery reader this afternoon, “I work for ******* within an RBS contract and so have my own RBS PC log-in and security card. During lunch today, I tried to take a look at the website for the Yes Campaign.”
Well, that’s understandable, we suppose.
After all, Yes Scotland is unquestionably an “advocacy group”, and you wouldn’t want someone posting to a political campaign website from the bank’s computers, just in case they said something that could be interpreted as a partisan statement (or just a really offensive or libellous comment) by the bank itself. And naturally, the rule applies to both sides equally, so it’s all fair and above board:
Oh, right.
That’s absolutely disgusting!
A few pointed questions are in order. Can`t wait to hear the explanation they come up with.
What about a sweep ?
My money`s on “We have this website in special measures”.
And I had thought they were RByeS.
Oh well, if only there was a bank that liked to say yes…
Gobsmacked!
Would be interested to see if wings, Bellacal, newsnet etc were also blocked as well as their pro union counterparts…
Nobody visits the BT site so it doesnt interfere with bank productivity.
Doesn’t surprise me at all. Remember we’re taking on The British Establishment. That includes various crooks in suits.
Noticed this months ago. Wings, NNS, etc. are fine. Don’t think there’s anything sinister about it. Blogs are meant to be blocked as they’re “social media” but mine is fine as are the ones I link to.
Who decides on what sites get blocked or not? Is it automated?
Royal Bank Of Westminster !
This opens up a whole new area, as which other major and not so major companies, promote the one sidedness, approach to independence.
Although I’m not surprised at the tactics of RBS,as they’re 80 odd percent owned by the taxpayer, which really equates to the ownership applying to Westminster. I still find its lack of parity shameful and disgusting.
I would hope others who work for major firms will also try and access the YES site, to see if its available or not.
It’s done via something called Websense. Blocked sites are categorised – gambling, high bandwidth, etc.
Or perhaps the system administrator has seen lots of traffic towards Yes Scotland and deemed it unappropriate or whatever. Where as you are likely the first person to visit Better Together From that system.
Whatever the reason for the Yes site being blocked and better together not, now it has been pointed out to the RBS Help team I expect parity asap, i.e. both blocked or both available.
@Dave Beveridge
Clearly doesn’t screen out lies, bullshit and pictures of Jackie Bailley (shudder).
Alan MacD – sorry but that’s just not true.
Dave Beveridge.
Fair enough, im not great with computers. you clearly understand the damned things better than me so could you please explain how that isnt a possibilty.
Just being optimistic i suppose that nobody is looking at that site.
As Royal Bank is owned by taxpayer , Questions should be asked in House of Commons. Does anyone know an MP?
Have just become aware that Facebook “recommends” BT at least once a week, along with several pages that might genuinely interest me, but NOT ONCE have they recommended a pro-independence page. Has FB been ‘got at’ too, or is it just another ‘oversight’?
That’s it. I’m changing bank. Never liked them and like them less now.
It’s easy to bypass the URL wall with things like Hola
Ok – the software called Websense categorises the sites and deems them unsuitable for whatever reason – drugs, gambling, auctions, etc. Clearly it hasn’t categorised BT as anything blockable. This is 3rd party software bought in by RBS. Sorry but a lot of people are barking up the paranoia tree here. 🙂
You can get access to a blocked site by being added to a security group but that’s getting too technical for this thread. A case of nothing to see here.
As an RBS account holder I have just asked for an explanation!!!!
odd considering the billboards and posters up all over with a campaign “RBYes” I would think they’ve come out as pro indy!
I think, though am no expert, that “recommends” from Facebook can be sponsored, ie. Paid For. So at least now we know where the no campaign are spending some of Ian Taylor’s dosh.
@AUD,
Yes – I know an MP, but he’s a Labour Unionist.
No point in writing to him then.
Wishing I had a RBS account so I could close it in discust- how on earth do they get away with this.
I also had this for a couple of weeks where I worked. During the start of the summer this year, the Financial Giant that I work at (can’t say their name, apologies because if I do, they will come gunning for me!)
However, the IT Security Team that look after the firewall realised that it was just a political site, and therefore, considered not that bad.
Still wouldn’t surprise to see if blacklisted at somepoint in the white heat of next summer’s political debate!
PS …it still didn’t stop me …I just used my personal Laptop and wireless networking to connect to the old Wings. You just can’t hold back the passionate and the determined!
If they don’t rectify it, I shall move to the Clydesdale, and tell them why.
I’ll back up Dave Beveridge’s comments, as a full time RBS employee myself. if it’s raised by someone to the admin team for Websense internally the BT site will be categorised as an Advocacy Group and blocked.
Should have aver been caught already, but there you go. Nothing malicious – unless it doesn’t change…
As has been said before, especially in relation to the BBC, it is strange how there is yet to be bias shown in favour of the non Better Together side.
According to Websense, ‘advocacy groups’ are those which “promote change or reform in public policy, public opinion, social practice, economic activities and relationships”. Which means Yes Scotland is an advocacy group, but Better Together is not.
I should also say, that it wasn’t ‘Yes Scotland’ that was blocked. It was the old ‘Wings’ that was blocked where I worked. But as said, I can now access it at work, but just for safety, I usually use my Laptop.
I don’t trust using my pseudo name on the corporate network. Maybe at the end of next summer, I will post my real name with (JLT) in brackets. At present …I’ll play it like ‘V’ for Vendetta !!
Someone told me that the reason Bank of Scotland is older than RBS is because BOS was sympathetic to Jacobitism and RBOS was a Hanoverian-backed venture specifically set-up to take business away from them.
No idea if that’s true, and don’t have time to check, but there ye go…
I have an RBS account, I have just jumped through hoops to make a complaint and have asked for a response.
I’m going to guess RBS will say that the process is automated and can be a bit arbitrary and they didn’t know it was blocked. Sites can be easily unblocked and therefore the Yes site should be unblocked. We can monitor the situation and see.
Personally, I think blocking Yes Scotland is like blocking cancer support sites, or advocating eating farm-fresh produce; certainly promoting change in public policy/opinion and social practice – but in a good way.
Just saying…
I’m going to guess RBS will say that the process is automated and can be a bit arbitrary and they didn’t know it was blocked. Sites can be easily unblocked and therefore the Yes site should be unblocked. We can monitor the situation and see.
I suspect that’s right. Probably wasn’t deliberate. No harm in making a fuss about it though. We’ll see if they apply even-handedness once it has been pointed out to them.
I’m more interested in this piece of software, how does it think, can we have a chat with it? What does it think of organised political parties, are they okay, given it’s from the US of A does it allow access to Ralph Nader sites for example? Or is he seen as an advocacy group. Does it take its cue from sites when they register.
So many questions though doubt as I don’t have access to the RBS system I’ll ever be able to test the inner workings of Websense.
However maybe the WoS reader who disovered this could test all manner of sites and let us know.
Here in Glasgow the sky is ablaze with fireworks btw. Real show of son et lumiere.
I moved from RBS to Nationwide when they were bailed out initially, didn’t fancy paying for Fred’s pension as a customer as well as a taxpayer.
Never looked back.
Someone used the phrase “bank productivity” in a comment. Must be a mistake. Predictive text or suchlike. Or have they stopped spending their afternoons looking out the windows?
while we are on the subject of IT
how does one upload their own icon?
Albalha,
Websense works from a database of sites which are constantly being updated. The websense proxy server in your corporate network gets fed these updates all the time and blocks / grants access accordingly.
You can make manual entries and / or exceptions to the database.
I’m with the rest of the techs though, I don’t think anyone has intentionally singled out Yes Scotland. It’s just how the cookie has crumbled so to speak!
@schrodingerscat
Surely you can apply a bit of quantum mechanics? Failing that I can’t help but someone will be along soon who can, of that I’m certain.
@rabb
Clearly my attempt to be vaguely amusing didn’t work. I’ve no doubt it’s not deliberate.
I’ll check my company terminals tomorrow.
Websense also blocks certain letter sequences and seems to be run by perverts & prudes. For example a school music department I know of couldn’t research anything to do with choral music because of the last four letters of the word!
@AlbertH
Really? Now that is interesting, that’s my curiosity about these abstract, in my head, controllers of people’s lives, most odd.
It’s the turn of RBS to bail out Alastair Darling and his public laughing stock “Better Together”.
Credit where it’s due though, RBS are world renowned for their expertise in picking total losers –
February 2009: history is made as RBS reports a loss of £24.1bn for 2008, the biggest in British corporate history…
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/dec/12/rbs-collapse-timeline
Albalha says:
5 November, 2013 at 7:47 pm
@schrodingerscat
Surely you can apply a bit of quantum mechanics
Probably
….while, as is well known, trying to search for anything at all to do with Scunthorpe leads to a rapid visit from the internet police….
schrodingers ca
Click here Sign up using the email address you use here and upload your preferred image.
“According to Websense, ‘advocacy groups’ are those which “promote change or reform in public policy, public opinion, social practice, economic activities and relationships”. Which means Yes Scotland is an advocacy group, but Better Together is not.”
Interesting. Of course, “Better Together” CLAIM to be standing for change and reform too, in the shape of greater devolution. Perhaps Websense know something we don’t…
I don’t know if it’s relevent but my workplace os quite restrictive with it’s web policy but I can access the ‘YES’ site just fine. If only they blocked the doom and gloom brigade it’d be perfect.
It’s just the way web blocking software works. As said above, Yes Scotland probably got enough traffic to be noted by the admins so it was blocked. Paradoxically, the best way to get BY blocked is to visit the site from work a lot.
@eddie
I think it’s relevant they must use another system that is programmed differently, all so arbitary it appears unless there are killer key words that mean you never get blocked, haven’t a clue, I only wonder.
thanks rab
Funny things firewalls and filters. I know a guy who works for a quango in Argyll, and wanted to order a shed from a very good timber firm in Barcaldine. His email was bounced back due to the presence of “offensive content”. He had tried to order the shed from Beaver Timber Company…. LOL.
@schordingerscat
Ah we’ve met before, I’ve been seen out and about in the London pages as a Highland Cow. Though have given up on that. Not the being a Highland Cow but the London pages.
have mailed Alan Reid MP (LibDem) with Bcc to Michael Russell MSP (SNP) asking for him to look at this inconsistency…
@JamesWestland
There you go arbitrary indeed I think someone could get a selling book out of it all. It’s just so absurd, truly absurd.
I’ve been talking about closing my RBS account for years but this has made up my mind for me. Disgusted.
OT Just reading man of the moment Len McCluskey’s speech for the Jimmy Reid Memorial Lecture on the JRF website. This passage jumps out.
“First, I believe that whatever the outcome of the referendum, the working people of all the nations of Great Britain will find a way to stay united in their struggles. And second, it is my firm conviction that, partisan of his own country, Scotland, as he surely was, Jimmy Reid’s politics cannot be defined as nationalist. He was, like all the finest working-class leaders, an internationalist. The brotherhood and sisterhood of man was his objective. “Man to man the world o’er will brothers be for aw’that” as your national poet has it. Jimmy’s was a world view without a trace of xenophobia or of hating and fearing “the other”.”
Yet he joined the SNP – Trade unionists, Labour Members & voters take note – don’t fall for the claims of “narrow nationalism” from the likes of Davidson et al. Independence is not a showstopper here.
http://reidfoundation.org/scrutiny/
Account with them is going tomorrow
“Funny things firewalls and filters. I know a guy who works for a quango in Argyll, and wanted to order a shed from a very good timber firm in Barcaldine. His email was bounced back due to the presence of “offensive content”. He had tried to order the shed from Beaver Timber Company…. LOL.”
I had a pal who worked for – I suspect – the same quango in Inverness. He was dealing with Dong Energy, and they wondered why their e-mails never got through, and could never get on their website.
Strange that some folk are still on about closing their accounts in spite of the explanations above. I can see unionist conspiracies everywhere along with the best/worst of you but there’s nothing untoward going on here. Take that from someone in RBS IT.
He was dealing with Dong Energy.
Ah yes, Danish Oil & Natural Gas. Have done work for them in the past.
Also did a job for TOTAL on the FUKA pipeline.
http://www.total-icop.co.uk/fuka/
Aye, was a total fuka that one.
Its automated folks. In a Liverpool accent “Calm down… calm down!”
Sites are blocked on type by the Firewalls. The Yes Scotland site maybe has ‘Politics’ or something ticked, where the BT website doesnt.
This is a policy that would have been setup by WebSense themselves – very unlikely to be RBS Group Security who would have done this. However, I know folks in Group Security and will ask. These content proxies work by downloading filters from base so that big companies don’t have to keep updating the policies for browsing at work.
You’ll probbaly find that all content filtering proxy software is follwing this same rule. It only takes a call to one of them to either unblock YesScotland’s web page or alternatively block BT’s page.
There was a time last year when Standard Life, Prudential and Widows websites were classified as “gambling” websites. The content filtering companies are mostly based in Salt Lake City, Utah (which may explain some things)
Guys, I agree with Dave Beveridge. Don’t close your accounts with RBS.
To be honest, I’ve seen a lot of websites, really innocent ones, being blocked just because they may have had a daft wee video attached to it, or someone used a sweary word. Seriously, that’s what the firewall and filters do.
If your company doesn’t mind you connecting to any website. Great! As I work in the IT industry in financial institutions, then seriously, be careful! I’m not trying to scare you off, but these companies guard their data with a ferocity. I’ve seen folk being kicked out of companies for mentioning just a name. That’s it! A name.
Or, they may have posted a cartoon with one of these daft photo’s of say, a cat leaping in the air. As far as they are concerned, you have just wasted time looking for a photo, posting it to other staff, who then waste time laughing at it, and then they post it on. When they add up the lost man hours through emails, then the person who originally sent it, gets carpeted big time!
Personally …if you can. Use your own handheld devices such as a smartphone, or a laptop. Most financial institutions now have Wi-Fi floating around in their main buildings. Use that. If you can pick up, say, BT Openzone, which is free, then use that too.
My advice is, if you can, avoid using the work’s internet, then do so. For any of you working in the financial industry, remember, you have sat courses on the Data Protection Act. They will use that against you if you are caught posting daft stuff.
Honestly …use your hand held devices and use Wi-Fi or for a short period, your monthly allowance for connecting to the internet.
I know I have already made a comment, but with hindsight, all this introspective pish is doing Yes no favours. I have to echo the sentiments of my colleague Tom Hogg: “This is all a bit pathetic. All of it. Get out and chap some doors folks, or post a few leaflets through letterboxes. That might convince a maybe to become a Yes. None of this has a hope.”
http://wingsoverscotland.com/identity-parade/#comment-625035
As things will inevitably conspire against us, more and more, over the next year this should be considered with each and every posting?
Mr. Chib says …
“If ah catch ye wankin on yer computer at lunchtime, yer in furra chibbin.”
Back in the earlier days of the the internet my colleague was extremely proud of his daughter’s attempt at a website; we couldn’t access it at work.
His name was Cumming…
Can I ask? Since when were RBS a Scottish Bank?
G H Graham,
Don’t laugh. I’ve seen crazy stuff over the years. Two individuals in my time were caught as to what you have just posted. Both separate incidents, but both on a Saturday morning when folk were doing overtime. One thought he couldn’t be seen (he was), the other looking at (cough, cough), light adult entertainment magazines.
One manager got caught with over 20MB of porn (this was 15 years ago now, so 20 MB was an effin lot) on his work’s hard drive. We had lots of folk (bizarrely) before firewalls became effective, downloading porn on to the works PC’s …and even on to the work’s servers! (which can be easily traced!)
We have had umpteen Sales boys and IFA’s caught with lots of porn on their laptops, or it appeared in their internet history.
One young lad in the middle of the Investment department, received an email from one of his mates. He was told to run a daft wee app. He did …and a full screen picture of a (cough cough) …not saying too much …of a young lady in her full birthday suit and performing some sort of act appeared on his screen, which then locked the PC. It meant that his PC had to be rebuilt …and the lad was canned!
Believe me, mate …the things I’ve seen folk do with their PC’s and Laptops over the years, I could write a book on it!
My work is very liberal. Apparently they were advised to block certain sites and rejected that advice on the grounds that one of their major remits was “knowledge transfer”. The bosses were ideologically opposed to blocking anything.
We’re basically just supposed to behave. Which means don’t camp on Facebook or Twitter or eBay or whatever. People have been canned though. When a new firewall was set up to detect porn access, mainly intended to keep students in check, some staff fell foul of it. There’s no list of naughty words or anything though – there couldn’t really be, given a lot of stuff people will be accessing quite legitimately.
The funniest thing I heard along these lines was a guy who ran a birdwatching web site who got a nastygram from his ISP saying that his site was being blocked because of the adult content.
Jon D,
Know what you are saying, mate, but that comes next summer. Chapping doors at this point is going to do nothing, especially when folk don’t have the White Paper yet.
As to getting people to access information from the internet, then for the moment, this is the way to do it.
At work, I tell everyone who talks about Independence to come to this site. Now think about that …because the Rev is posting record number of visits a month.
This is working. We just need to tell people that there is a place to get info the now. Once we have the white paper, the newspapers, and fast fact sheets, then we do door-to-door.
And to be honest …I’m buggered if I’m going chapping on doors in minus 2 while folk are setting off fireworks around me!
I’m working towards closing my RBS accounts and moving to
“The Airdrie Savings Bank”
I doubt if there is delineate conspiracy here and it should be remembered that although the public essentially owns a huge chunk of the bank, it still operates as a private company. As such, there is absolutely no compunction for it to adherence to democratic principles.
It is the Group Board that calls the shots.
“The Group Board is the principal decision-making forum for the company. It has overall responsibility for leading and controlling the company and is accountable to shareholders for financial and operational performance. The Board approves Group strategy and monitors performance.”
http://www.rbs.com/about/board-and-committees/group-board.html
I am only a punter so I don’t know if it is possible, as ‘shareholders’, to influence the Board.
I have an alternative explanation – the bampotstogether are so inconsequential that RBS doesn’t even notice them… or, no, just some more BritNat bias… yes, that’s it.
YO, REVERAND! You’re doing a good job me old China – well worth my donation. Keep it up – I think you are actually helping and certainly you’re keeping the YES campaign and the SNP awake. I suspect you’re also helping to partly / increasingly colour the tone of the SNP responses and message in the referendum debate – a good thing.
It is bleedin’ hard to keep doing what you’re doing but it’s only for about another 10 months and it’s definitely worthwhile. So, strength and courage.
@meself (7.11)
Well, well, well…check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Royal_Bank_of_Scotland
JLT
I concur with you once I was working in Milan on a Saturday morning, was trying to setup a tunnel in the early days of the internet, could not get it working as the internet at the US head office was very slow, as it was about 5am in the states this was very strange, so I went into the firewall and there was a nightshift guy in Louisiana watching a porn movie, it was taking all the bandwith of a multi-national company with 12k plus employees I called my Boss in the States out of bed, I don’t know what happended to the guy in Lafayette, hopefully he just got an earful. I spent ninth months in 1999 travelling the world (19 countries) updating company systems and the amount of porn on peoples p.c.’s was unbelievable. I just deleted it and made them sign the company computer use policy and made them aware they could be down the road if any was found on their computers again.
That is why companies now utilize software to filter out any unauthorised usage. If Better Together is not blocked soon then its something to get on the high horse about but is more than likely that lots of people have been onto Yes Scotland and the traffic to the YES website has showed up in a report somewhere.
Quite often these things are automated with a key word filter and some other jigerypokery. All the guy has to do is contact the help desk. Tell them he can’t access the web site he wants to access, they’ll check it out if they’re not busy and enable it or leave it disabled. If they leave it disabled he has every right to complain or at least demand Better Together’s web site also be banned.
In general however, it’s not a good idea to brows the web on a production machine. Especially when it’s running Windows with IE for a poor excuse of a web browser.
Maybe the Better Together web site is clasified as a Tory funded charity?
My employers internet also blocked YES Scotland but allowed BT. I pointed this out to them they responded by allowing access to both YES & BT.
Call me old fashioned,I am oldfashioned, but I do not have sympathy with any of this. While at work do not use a company computer to surf the web in company time. BTW an example of filtering causing a problem was when Wings changed its address because the old address contained the stub “game” in was it podgamer?
go to a public library computer and try to look up Dick Van Dyke’s Wikipedia page 🙂
Luckily i have no web restrictions at work and that’s why i spend most of my time commenting on Wings in the morning or afternoon FTW! 🙂 🙂
off topic report on EU debate tonight – EU, why should we care, Chaired by Prof Curtis and panel of Linda Fabiani MSP – Former Minister for Europe and External Affairs in the Scottish Government Alf Young – economic and political journalist and commentator Petros Fassoulas – Chairman of European Movement UK Dr Ian Duncan – MEP Candidate ( Scottish Conservatives) Emilie Steinmark – Chair, Glasgow University European Society.
I’d say the most interesting thing that came out was that, as some of you probably know, the Scottish Government now has legal advice on EU membership but are unlikely to share that for well known reasons. Linda said that she didn’t know what the advice was because she’s not in the Government but that you could ask another lawyer and get a different answer. Alf Young seized on this as indication the legal advice didn’t give the answer the Scottish Gov wanted. A member of the audience put forward the belief that Scotland would be made an example of for its secession (no unanimity in the Council), which I think Alf backed up, but Petros and Ian disagreed. Petros said he couldn’t imagine a country like Scotland not being allowed to stay i.e. that NO country would oppose membership, and Ian said the UK would be an ally of Scotland in its membership. As to whether rUK (or fUK as Ian preferred) would be affected, Alf was extremely annoyed and said the whole of the UK would need to have a vote if this were the case, and went on to say how annoyed he was that Alan Cumming has a vote in the referendum cos he owns a house in Edinburgh but Alf’s kids don’t (didn’t catch where they live – maybe London?)
Another interesting moment arose when a member of the audience responded to Ian Duncan’s claim that the EU didn’t follow the rule of law and had undemocratically forced a government on the Greek people that they didn’t vote for (no laughing at the back). The audience member said that a clearer breach of the rule of law was the retroactive Gov legislation on the workfare rules. This was glossed over in favour of the point about whether the Greek situation and the EU in general was democratic. There didn’t seem to be any controversy amongst the others that the EU was generally a positive thing.
While at work do not use a company computer to surf the web in company time
Depends on the co.
We (SME uni spin-out) have no filter and people can use the internet as they want so long as that use is reasonable, i.e. on breaks etc. We’re not keeping tabs. If they want to facebook when eating lunch, fine. We trust our staff. If they weren’t doing their job and instead spending the entire day idly browsing, we wouldn’t need to look at internet usage to work that out. People are far more productive and happy when you are not draconian, but instead let them work flexibly with a bit of fun / R&R thrown in. Of course for some jobs there are limits to which you can do this, but do it where you can and it works well.
Update re: ‘Better Together’ Stevenston meeting this Friday:
It’s my happy duty to announce that Alistair Wilson, who penned this:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-ground-war/
will be coming to film SSP and Yes Scotland activists as we welcome neighbours, Better Together representatives, and fellow inquisitive Scots, to Ardeer Neighbourhood Centre.
Unfortunately (what with us being pro-Indy supporters) we won’t be allowed inside this ‘public’ meeting. (Even those of us who actually live here.)
Oh well, c’est la vie.
But we will be standing outside to greet the speakers as they arrive, and we’re very much hoping that they, and curious local residents, will accept a wee leaflet from us as they make their way in.
(Kudos to Alistair for what he’s doing – traipsing about the country, filming this stuff, and having to put up with BT’s childish behaviour, is well over and above the proverbial. But he’s sure to have the makings of an invaluable document by the time this thing is over. If you have grass-roots stuff organised which you feel he might want to know about, all the more reason to join us.)
Please, help – those leaflets are heavy!:
Friday, 6.30, Ardeer Neighbourhood Centre, Shore Road, Stevenston, Ayrshire, KA20.
(We might even go for a pint afterwards, if anyone’s up for it.)
O/T but interesting.
Eric Joyce of Falkirk apparently claimed £66,000 in expenses last year, making his expenses the 12th highest in the UK parliament
Alistair Carmichael was second highest after Ian Paisley with £83,000 but at least the last two were claiming for flights.
Collectively, MPs’ expenses amounted to £98million last year. That’s just for expenses, never mind their salaries.
Read more here: http://archive.is/9ZNUi
Did you say Eric Joyce was claiming for fights?…. oh sorry… ‘flights’! Ah 😉
lolol! Ah no, @Alba4Eva I think he provides those for free.
@Ian Brotherhood
Are you sure we won’t be allowed in? I got into the launch of B.T. East Ayrshire on Friday, as did Alistair. Even got to fire a bombshell question early on which A.D defused with plausible denial/ dismissal and obfuscation.
I was hoping to go in with another one for whoever is on the panel, simple and less easy to deflect.
Otherwise, if you’ve got the leaflets, I’m there with you.
‘Famous15 says:
5 November, 2013 at 10:24 pm
Call me old fashioned,I am oldfashioned, but I do not have sympathy with any of this. While at work do not use a company computer to surf the web in company time.’
ummm… ‘During Lunch today’
To be honest I don’t think there is anything malicious in this.
There are cases at work where I can open a web page and others can’t and vice versa. I think it has more to do with your computer security settings that have been set by your company than an actual block.
O/T – and also posted on ‘A Gun To Govan’s Head’ thread.
Just heard Johann Lamont on the Today programme (07.55). Essentially an ear-bleeding monologue, no real attempt to ask her penetrating questions. Main points were:
1. When asked if she agreed with Ian Davidson’s quote, she did not say yes or no, but that “Ian is recognised as an authority” on shipbuilding – implying total agreement.
2. That she was interested in solidarity with the workforce (whatever that actually means in practical terms)
3. That said solidarity should be across the UK, with workers not divided against each other, ignoring the fact that 2/3 of these shipyards are on or near her patch.
4. That this should not be reported in ‘divisive’ terms and should be about ‘more than the future of one politician’ (I presume she meant Alex Salmond).
O/T
See the Portsmouth News for another take on this. The comments are interesting, with some disillusionment with Westminster and the local MP evident.
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/workers-brace-for-news-over-future-of-portsmouth-shipyard-1-5651701
Try accessing Labourforindy, Womenforindependence or Scottishcommonweal on a Glasgow library computer and let me know how you got on!
A friend of mine is a translator and needs to access all kinds of websites. For instance, if you’re translating a government paper on gambling, it’s a good idea to have a look at gambling sites to see the kind of language used.
She worked for a small Finnish company that trusted the employees and nothing was filtered or blocked. Then the company was taken over by a big multinational and suddenly their work got much harder. The multinational used very strict filtering, probably designed by some American prude.
My friend’s favourite example is when she was translating a paper on milking parlour design, she was denied access to any website that mentioned udders!
She tells me that the filtering has now been relaxed after the company’s translators in all the countries it operates in explained to the management that they need full internet access to do their job properly.
This is a non-story and it should be removed. It adds no value whatsoever to the YES case. All it does is suggest that paranoia reigns here. I would not be surprised if the NO campaigners pick up on it and use it against us.
The reason it is happening has been clearly explained to you.
http://www.websense.com/content/Regional/UnitedKingdom/Home.aspx
Davidson’s mental idea of having a ‘break’ clause, just shows how stupidly ignorant the man is. Apart from his threat to have ships being built removed in the event of a yes vote. The idea that ships being built can somehow be uplifted from the yard the day after the yes vote is completely and utterly stupid. What planet is he on?
A couple of issues with this. I’ve worked in information compliance and I am familiar with the issues . The first point It seems to me this is an example of the ‘scunthorpe problem’ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem? I imagine there are websites with “YES to big boobs’ in the title or whatever (honestly I wouldn’t know 🙂 ) 2)It also depends on how sites are classified by their ISP based on information supplied by the organisation.
Also I hope the reader was visiting it during his lunch break 🙂
Well with Portsmouth now to stop ship building where would they plan to take the work after this nonsensical break clause? Not quite working to plan, it appears to me.
I heard some chap called James Kelly on the radio this morning bumping his gums about GARL. I assume this is the same James Kelly that posts the barely cogent, highly partisan and frequently contradictory comments on the Herald?
His frankly ill informed posturing over GARL, attempts to brush aside the over-payment for the land in the first place by Labour controlled SPT and muddying of the water by suggesting that somehow the auction was not a standard Government disposal was barrel scraping of the most pathetic sort. Governments and industry pull out of projects all the time. The accounting term for costs already expended is a sunk cost. You recover what you can and write off the rest because to proceed with the project would not give the return it promised. His attempt to suggest otherwise shows a fundamental lack of knowledge on how business operates. That said it is common knowledge that Labour’s business nouse is non-existent and that they plough on with projects come hell or high water and sacrifice common sense on an alter every morning to appease Mammon in the hope that it will be all right on the night.
Examples of projects cancelled after considerable expenditure (far more than GARL), Blue Streak, TSR2, Nimrod, The big hole at Rosyth. The Coalition looked at cancelling the aircraft carriers but found Labour had tied then to the contract – now the costs have doubled and the costs for the F35B are rising at an alarming rate.
The simple fact is that GARL was a Labour project and they are upset that it was cancelled. However, Labour’s track record on projects and costs is not impressive. Kelly’s tale of woe regarding the Commonwealth games is just drivel. The Games are sold out and no country has cancelled because they have to get a bus from Glasgow to Gilmore Street Station. Some of the bus journey’s at Heathrow between terminals and the car hire parks are as long. I have flown to destinations without a rail link to the airport. The lack of such a link has no bearing on whether I would return to that country or not.
O/T Daily Wail apoplectic over Joan MacAlpine’s article on World War One celebrations.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/joan-mcalpine-slaughter-great-war-2677005
HandandShrimp
Labour have requested a debate on this in Holyrood. It’s on today and can be seen on democracy live. In news terms it may be swamped with the shipyards story.
Albalha
Portsmouth to be given some work on maintenance pending referendum result and if YES could be brought back to a full capacity as orders might be cancelled.
BBC 5 live radio discussion (better than Call Kaye)
@Aidan (12.27) –
That’s great mister, thanks – looking forward to seeing you there.
I don’t think we’ll be invited in! Perhaps, if we promise to roll-up our big SSP banner and keep shtum, they’ll let us stand at the back, or we can press our noses against the window.
But that’s a good few names in now – looks like we’ll have a decent crowd. Roll on Friday.
I work for RBS and just tried both. Either they have changed the profile since yesterday or neither was ever blocked as it works fine.
And admittedly I am based in London so the rejected screen may be different in Gogaburn/Edinburgh, but that is *not* what my screen looks like when a website gets rejected.
Just listening to that idiot Alf Young on call Kaye. God this guy is a complete balloon. He states that he saw an small Irish naval vessel that recently visited Glasgow and if that’s an example of what a Scottish Navy will be like, ship building will be finished in Scotland. So according to Alf Young, were too wee! There was also a call from some clown that was the head of the shipbuilders confederation. He was in the same attitude . Both of them completely unchallenged by Louise White (standing in fro Kaye Adams)
HandandShirimp
RE Labour and Garl, maybe they are trying to cover up something
Has anybody looked into if any of the land which was purchased for GARL changed hands in the preceding couple of years, perhaps somebody being tipped off that a good deal to be had!!! I don’t know but the way Labour operate it would not surprise me….
“This is a non-story and it should be removed. It adds no value whatsoever to the YES case. All it does is suggest that paranoia reigns here. I would not be surprised if the NO campaigners pick up on it and use it against us.
The reason it is happening has been clearly explained to you.”
I’m aware of why it’s happening. The point of the story is to see what RBS do once alerted to the fact.
@CallmeDave
Re post YES relocation of work was that an official postion or just someone making hay?
O/T Govan Shipyard
BBCs Brian Taylor : To be absolutely clear, I do not expect in any way that Scottish political leaders will use this threat to shipbuilding jobs as an instant proxy for that referendum campaign.
The leader of the Scottish Labour party, Johann Lamont, whose Holyrood constituency includes the Govan yard, said there was now a bit of “dilemma” about the timing of the independence referendum. And what I’m very clear is, that we don’t want to see the workforce across the United Kingdom set one against another.”
State broadcaster going overtime trying to politicise the shipbuilding decision, with that twat Norman Smith going on about “a foreign” country and English jobs being sacrificed. Also mentioned potential of get out clause should we vote YES. Quite nasty undertones and threats, oh and I have heard no one from the YES side trying to point score on this issue.
Oh it’s a pity Salmond not around to give the BBC a verbal slap. I thought the announcement was meant to be tomorrow, but then Salmond might have been back from China by then.
BAE are a commercial company and I am sure they have a very clear idea what their costs are and what the best options are vis a vis potential future workload. The difficulty is purely political. If BAE close one of the Scottish yards it makes it very difficult to talk about Better Together benefits. If they shut Portsmouth then Westminster has little option but to accept that the type 26 will be built at Govan. Talk about competing with Germany or France is nonsense as Westminster want BAE’s type 26 and BAE will use their own yards. To recompete the project and design simply to cock a snoot at Scotland is hardly joined up defence planning….although certainly Ian Davidson would advocate this whilst bayonetting some badgers for the Tories at the same time no doubt.
It has been acknowledged by many on the current news programmes that the quality of skills and finished product is much better in the Clyde yards. Wages in Scotland are lower.It has been made on commercial basis according to BAE but these factors will be conflated with the political agenda regarding the referendum, which is understandable. However the initial impact is that many jobs will be lost North and South of the border.How the landscape will look after the fallout is uncertain for both NO and YES.Interesting times ahead.
Bunter
It is looking like BAE have gone for stopping building ships at Portsmouth. The political ramifications are likely to be interesting. According to the BBC we should hear at 11. Looks like BAE have decided the speculation is unfair on the staff and have brought forward the announcement.
I heard JL on Call Kaye (without a K) today bumping her gums about Govan.
She said that it shouldn’t be turned into a political football and then in her next sentence turned it into a political football.
Anyway, there seemed to be some decent callers today and the presenter, Louise something, didn’t seem too bad at all.
Albalha
BBC tv news interview. Davidson’s ‘break clause’ mentioned and also the point you mentioned.
Politician making hay. . but still straws in the wind.
If you stop building ships and lay off the workers, resurrecting ship building a year or two later is not that simple and not without costs. Re-opening yards is never straightforward as many yards on the Clyde and the north east of England can testify to. Davidson’s break clause is an attempt to create uncertainty. The carriers will not be finished by 2016 and it seems most improbable that they will try to drag the things from Rosyth to complete in England. So if we vote Yes the carriers will be completed in a foreign country thereby breaking the duck of a warship not being built in the UK/rUK.
Surely the whole thing was always a commercial decision for BAE anyway. It was politicized by certain factions as it suited their purpose. There will be no surface based RN ships built in the rUK going forward should Scotland vote YES. Its one more scare story debunked.
The Portsmouth MP, not surprisingly, blames the political dimension …’Salmond benefits either way …….. punished or bribed’.
However as others are saying he reckons a break clause would be very difficult to deal with as the skilled workforce will no longer be in place.
900 jobs to go in Portsmouth and 800 in Scotland.
SG has been talking to BAE for a while.
http://archive.is/BjwUW
Westminster making it pretty clear what the ‘conditions’ are:
‘Shipbuilding is to end at at the historic BAE systems dockyard in Portsmouth but the decison will be reversed if Scotland votes for independence, Downing Street sources said.’
http://tinyurl.com/m3hzbr2
800 jobs to go in Glasgow. Terrible. We must do better in an Indy Scotland.
DECISION IN:
Defence giant BAE Systems is to consult on 1,775 potential job losses across its naval ships business.
Around 940 roles are under threat in Portsmouth during 2014, and a further 835 in Scotland, according to sources.
An official announcement is expected shortly to confirm fierce speculation about the scale of cuts in BAE’s three main yards – Portsmouth, Govan and Scotstoun in Scotland.
Shipbuilding operations will end in Portsmouth in the second half of next year, but an engineering team will be retained to support the new Type 26 warships, which will be built in Glasgow.
940 to go in Portsmouth? Seems Scotland takes a bigger hit proportionately With 800.
BBC Norman Smith;
‘Have English jobs been sacrificed for Scottish Nationalists’
It IS supposed to be a commercial decision by BAE. Portsmouth was always on a shoogly hook, due to size/capacity etc etc. But it doesn’t sit well with local MP’s who have in the main sat on their hands (as have Glasgow MP’s) languishing in the glow of the fat goose, that’s the MOD, laying the golden egg(s). No attempt by ANY MP in either constituency have made any attempt to try and look beyond the Goose’s fat arse and try and get other industry or commercial ship building in the mix at the locations. Now that the Goose is not laying so many eggs, the MP’s are scrambling to look as if their doing something. In the real world you really cant have all your eggs in the one basket, which is what the Westminster government have been presiding over. All I hear is about building warships. Meanwhile every where else is building anything and everything that the world actually needs!
So thats the Independence threatens Scottish shipyards scare-story debunked then.
Note: Portsmouth to stay open till the latter half of 2014 so I wouldnt put it past them to wait until after the referendum and change their minds.
Both the handling of Grangemouth and BAE on the Clyde appear to be clear attempts by the Tories to get Scotland to vote Yes weakly masked as efforts to promote a No.
Both have created situations where major strategic assets and a large number of jobs are heavily dependent on the whims of Westminster with the Scottish government very limited in what it can do. The Scottish Government is of course seen to be doing everything it can while Westminster plays political games. At the same time, Labour look weak and divided.
I guess the Tories are aiming to lay the ground for the white paper / joint statement to make sure these are well received.
We know that the Tories want this over and done with. Michael Forsyth just confirmed this once more in the Telegraph the other day.
@Scott Minto
Re debunking, not so sure that’s how it’s playing …..I’m hearing a lot of ‘Well Goven will lose their jobs if Scotland votes YES, you’re on borrowed time etc, so make sure you continue to play nice’.
It makes no rational sense to me but just hearing an English MP say it leaves England with no warship building facility is a powerful argument from their end if we vote YES.
@scottish_skier
Remind me of your theory again? Still not convinced, but I’m more than happy for you to be right. What’s the main reason they want us to vote YES?
So much for ‘better together’ even as part of the union, 800 are laid off in Glasgow
So basically the workers in the yards were lied to, when they were told that it was jobs for life with the MOD contracts and was cemented to Scotland remaining in the union with England
That should be at the forefront of every shipbuilder. At the end of the day it was a commercial decision, so telling workers they have ‘jobs for life’ is criminal – Where Jim Murphy when you need a stupid sound bite?
GRANGEMOUTH ( INEOS ) GOVAN/SCOTSTOWN ( BAE ) AM WATCHING LIVE COVERAGE ON BBC SCOT SHIPBUILDER LEAVING THE YARD ( NO COMMENTS ) UNION GAGGING OR BAE ORDERS AT WORK WHATS THE NEXT BIG INDUSTRY THE UK GOV / UNIONS CAN ATTACK Its a WAIT & SEE
@Scottish Skier
I disagree. I think its a ploy to say ‘look, you’re jobs have been safeguarded by being in the UK’ in response to a situation that arose and they thought they could get traction from.
Just as if Grangemouth had closed they would have took advantage of teh situation and said ‘Ooohh, you have very little industry left and would be importing fuel – you would be financially buckled…’
Grangemouth came out of no-where and WM must have thought they had been given a golden oppoortunity to dent Scotlands industry before the referendum. Of course Grangemouth didnt go to plan when the Scottish Government got hold of the £40m reduction in feedstock costs agreement from BP… sidelining Westminster in the process and tipping the scales in teh decision to keep the petrochemical plant open.
And this shipyard malarky is due to WM sending the MARS Tanker work to S.Korea to do (thereby causing a gap in UK production that couldnt be filled).
It wont work as it looks like they were delaying the decision so as not to upset Tory SE England by closing Portsmouth, but then thought they would try this ploy on workers in Scotland before IndyRef – inadvertantly shooting themselves in the foot by removing the threat of ‘No warships from outside UK’ in the process.
I dont think its a clever plan, more like incompetence and ‘events dear boy’
Looks as if there is plenty of wiggle room for them to whip it all way from Govan and Scotstoun if there is a YES vote.
Which makes this potentially an open goal for BT.
The Tories (and Labour) couldn’t care less about whether the rUK can build warships or not. Scotland, Korea… whatever.
People must remember that UK governments only think about short term power and prestige in addition to lining their own pockets.
They don’t think any further than the next election so who gives a crap about Portsmouth. Oh they might threaten to shift orders from the Clyde in the event of a Yes, but in the end BAE will build where it sees fit / where it is the most economically viable and Westminster won’t care either way.
The idea that Westminster would act to save shipyards for the long term strategic benefit of the UK/rUK is frankly laughable. Any planning like that ended in 1979.
AIRDRIE YES CAMPAIN GROUP MEETING TONIGHT SHYBERRY STADIUM 7 PM NEW MEMBERS WELCOME COME & JOIN US OR OTHER INDEPENDENCE GROUPS IN YOUR AREA SAOR ALBA
@Albalha
I can see it going like this:
‘You’re jobs have been saved by being in the UK… but Portsmouth is not going to shut until after the referendum so we can always change our minds…’
A bribe AND a threat.
Stay in the UK and keep your jobs – Leave and we take the work back to Portsmouth.
Of course its a nonsense as an Independent Scotland will more than be able to support the yards with new builds of patrol vessels and maintenance PLUS they could actually get some bloody Oil and Gas work!
I think its a ploy to say ‘look, you’re jobs have been safeguarded by being in the UK’
Maybe I’m giving them far too much credit. However, both the shipyards and Grangemouth should act to promote a Yes vote, not the other way around. That’s what I’ve found when talking to some ‘DK’s / soft no. The fact that the Scottish Government is limited in what it can do in the face of such problems and far more control lies in the hands of the Tories frightened these people who are now moving to Yes as a result. While the outcomes are not quite 1980’s, the situation is reminiscent of that time.
So what I’ve learned this morning so far:
The loss of jobs is pretty evenly divided between Portsmouth and Glasgow. Portsmouth aren’t currently building anything (I don’t think they are ?) and Glasgow have to finish off the two aircraft carriers.
So it stands to reason that more people will be employed in Glasgow because they are actually working and have to finish the job.
Can’t quite see how this is political, it’s simple economics surely?
@ScottMinto
Well agreed but it’s all about who gets their narrative out there and well we know how that’s likely to play BUT surely the actual workforce who understand the ins and outs of the industry will know what’s what, I’d hope so anyway. But came across a letter from one in support of BT on the YES Rosyth twitter feed.
https://twitter.com/YESRosyth
@Scottish Skier,
I’m not saying they will move jobs post Yes (mainly because I agree that its a commercial decision), but they can threaten that course of action (see my response to Albalha above).
I dont think they are deliberately trying to get rid of Scotland. They just cant help being self serving greedy bastards that lie for a living…
A bribe AND a threat.
The Tories have been threatening Scotland with everything they can think of, so much so it’s getting laughable at times. They are surely not so stupid as to know that such actions will only help promote Scottish independence (which is what many of them want now).
Regardless, the Scottish yards have lost 25% of their workerforce. That is a hefty loss to Govan and no amount of bribery and threats can alter that.
It hope Sturgeon or someone takes that twat Norman Smith and BBC in London to task about this non stop Scotland v England thing and English jobs being sacrificed. This is a disaster for 1700 people, while we are still in the union.
@SS
I refer you to my last point:
“They just cant help being self serving greedy bastards that lie for a living”
Just watched Jamie Webster of the Union talking about the job losses in Glasgow, very powerful he was fighting back tears. He’s up for the fight and they will be having two day talks with BAE HQ. Come on SG get in there.
@HandandShrimp
Very true. And all on the Unions watch.
When you look at shipbuilding in the UK it accounts for less than 1% of Europes total while little old norway does over 2%. Germany does over 30%.
Clearly room for improvement.
Re Jamie Webster a little curio from a few years back involving him and Sarwar senior, funny what you come across when you’re patiently waiting for PMQ’s and then the Hammond statement.
http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2003-04/379
Three new ocean going patrol vessels contract now been announced.
MP for Portsmouth South, Mike Hancock, “Alex Salmond was on a no lose situation, He would benefit if they closed the yard saying they’re being punished. If they keep the yards open he’ll say you’re being bribed so from that point of view he’s in a no lose situation. But I think the people of Portsmouth are going to be paying a very heavy price for I think a slightly cynical manoeuvre”.
Albalha says: “three new ocean going patrol vessels contract now been announced.”
Bad news that means the decision on Type 26 contracts is not forthcoming. That simply creates more uncertainty.
New:Three new ships (small patrol types) to fill the gap as reported by BBC. These were the three ships that Portsmouth were hoping would fill the gap for them.Anyhoo! Shocking news for all workers.Very bad news for the No’s as these job losses will do nothing to inspire confidence in the union.
There is a lot of pontificating from all sorts, from the Countryside Alliance (really) to London BBC political journalists. However, the two Scottish yards are the better yards and in a purely business decision sense BAE have made the right choice given the expected future workload. Keeping Portsmouth open and the expense of the Clyde would have been the political decision. On the plus side, if it is a Yes vote we go into that future with working ship yards.
Who next. how about Rolls Royce. Let’s damage Scotland’s employment figures, GDP etc in the run up to the final GERS report…..
In Scottish Questions tricky Mr I Davidson just tried to shoehorn with a ruddy big cleaver Govan into a question about Royal Mail, twit.
Bad, naughty unions at Grangemouth first up in PMQ’s.
DC says in response to Angus Robertson,
“If there was an independent Scotland there wouldn’t be any warships at all”.
BBC radio Scotland
835 jobs to go over next three years in the three Scottish yards (inc Rosyth).
PMQs Cameron says.
In parliament: this government will have aircraft carriers P45 and P26 frigates etc but added ‘in an independent Scotland we wouldn’t have warships at all’
A wee threat there if I’m not mistaken. Watch out Scotland!
Bunter , Nigola Sturgion has commented, but SG will comment when there is Definitive INFORMATION unlike WESTMINSTER LABOUR MPs SPREADING SCARE STORIES
Albalha
Sorry sounding like an echo! 🙂
There are quite a lot of people at the moment questioning why Shipbuilding in the UK is so reliant on military orders. In a nutshell the commercial yards went under as they became uncompetitive internationally and military shipbuilding has been the only area where orders have been secured. In terms of lay offs – I think folk should get real a wee bit, the carriers contract was huge and was always going to create a workforce demand that wouldn’t be sustainable once this started to move towards completion.
I think that a lot of the problems over the past 20-30 years stem from the fact that from a strategic government perspective the view of shipbuilding has been that of a “sunset industry” that would go the way of the rest of manufacturing and engineering – which is part of the reason that we are only left with military yards.
What nobody is mentioning today is Rosyth, where the Carriers are being assembled. There are two things about that that are important. Firstly, construction method. The Carriers are being constructed on a modular basis at various yards and then assembled at Rosyth. Secondly, there is plant and facility. Rosyth now has a huge assembly site which will basically be redundant once the carriers are complete.
To me, now is the time for a bit of foresight – the modular assembly method and the facilities at Rosyth are crying out for somebody to come along and say, “right, let’s have another bash at commercial shipbuilding”. As others have pointed out, ships are being built across the world; as far as I can see it’s time we set our sights higher again and looked at commercial shipbuilding as a serious proposition. I have no doubt that this would require government support. I wonder which government is more likely to want to support a venture such as this, Holyrood or Westminster?
@Rev
I’m aware of why it’s happening. The point of the story is to see what RBS do once alerted to the fact.
Back on topic. Rev – why don’t you take this up with Websense who supply the database that feeds the RBS web security system? Once they block Better Together nobody will see it. In the meantime any employee wanting their independence fix can go to the SNP’s website or that of the Radical Independence Campaign, both of which are visible to all. Strange eh?
If they really need Yes Scotland then they can make the necessary request with their business justification.
There is no conspiracy here at all and TBH the IT folk in RBS have got enough to do without this.
Cameron is a charmless git. However, I am not entirely convinced by Forsyth’s argument that the Tories are trying to lose the referendum. They play the scare stories with the best of them.
OK, sending Hammond and May to be offensive does beg a question or two but there is a possibility that the Tories are so out of touch with Scotland that they thing we will appreciate the pearls of wisdom from these horrors.
@callmedave
Echo chamber you say! Surely not, not, not.
@Moujick
Very interesting, thanks.
“BAE said it had agreed with the MoD “that Glasgow would be the most effective location for the manufacture of the future Type 26 ships”.
“The company proposes to consolidate its shipbuilding operations in Glasgow with investments in facilities to create a world-class capability, positioning it to deliver an affordable Type 26 programme for the Royal Navy,” BAE said.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24831779
So it seems the MOD are very keen on utilising Glasgow’s yards for quite a long time into the future, I wonder how aggressively Ian Davidson is going to fight against the interests of his own constituents and their local economy by trying to thwart this decision, is Philip Hammond now up for “a doin”, he’d better keep an eye out in the Commons toilets…
@Moujick
Commercial Shipbuilding was allowed to fail by the UK government due to their policies and lack of support – International competition was only one factor.
The biggest ship building nations in Europe are Germany, Italy and the Netherlands (not typical low wage economies). Shipbuilding still thrives in these countries, pulling in hundreds of millions of pounds of orders annually, with even plucky little Norway providing 2% of Europe’s output compared to the UK’s paltry showing of less than 1%.
I agree that we need to look at getting this industry back up and running.
Here’s some more re Rosyth,
http://www.qecassembly.co.uk/
Albalha says – DC says in response to Angus Robertson,
“If there was an independent Scotland there wouldn’t be any warships at all”.
Can anyone tell me why this would be a bad thing?
@ Scott Minto
When you look at shipbuilding in the UK it accounts for less than 1% of Europes total while little old norway does over 2%. Germany does over 30%.
Good data. Do you have a source ?
thanks
Ignore that, just saw the link. thanks
Type 26 not until 2016 something to do with revising designs at the end of next year.
@ Ivan
Its page 52 you want.
Horrible news. Shocked at the lack of diversity in the shipbuilding industry though. With all that water everywhere is the MoD really the only game in town?
Politics show BBC:
In 1707 at the union : England had over 700 ships and Scotland 3.
Laughs all round!
Note: Germany is 18% not 30% as I said earlier.
Still… over 18 times bigger than UK shipbuilding.
@Horace
Indeed but I don’t really get what he means in the political context of today’s announcement, that’s my interest in him saying it not warmongering in general.
Ed Miliband is sucking a boiling sweet I think as he listens to his defence person.
I see the MOD announce that they will have 3 Ocean going patrol ships built on the Clyde, due to start late 2014.
No doubt we will have the usual suspects claiming that this was only possible due to Scotland, being in the UK. However it should be happily noted that it is these 3 ocean patrol ships are the type that would be needed and would be built for an Independent Scottish Royal Navy
So I would treat these 3 Ocean going Patrol ships as a leaving present from Westminster, thanks, these will do nicely as an integral part of the future Scottish Royal Navy!
@ Scot Minto
Got it, thanks
Assume this data excludes defence spend ?
Any links to any other background data gratefully received.
I’m on the radio on Friday and this is a cert to come up so want to get my facts and figures lined up.
Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said: “This deal will provide the Royal Navy with three brand new maritime patrol vessels with a wide range of capabilities which will support our national interests and those of our overseas territories.
So they’ll be the ones trying to stop Scotland reclaiming its maritime border then
Anas Sarwar showing how Labour will play the BAE story, ‘hope A Salmond doesn’t play politics with it as he did Grangemouth’. Hammond very much playing down the referendum, imo. Not sure if Ruth D will take the same approach tomorrow at FMQ’s.
oh. my comment never came up. I was saying that YesScotland is mis-classified as “Advocacy Groups” which falls under Adult/Mature instead of “Political Organisations by WebSense. I checked with WebPulse, and they have it correctly classified.
If you search at: http://sitereview.bluecoat.com/sitereview.jsp
The page you want reviewed is http://www.yesscotland.net/
This page is currently categorized as Political/Activist Groups Last Time Rated/Reviewed: > 7 days
Mmm re Hammond he’s now playing up the UK element. But didn’t someone say elsewhere that could all change in the New Year as the nature of the relationship with BAE changes?
I Davidson now. ‘These ocean going contracts wouldn’t have been available in a separate (sic) Scotland …..can he confirm the 26 order won’t be placed until after the referendum outcome?’.
Hammond goes back to the design not being there, no mention of referendum.
Par for the course.
Naturally, as the BBC reminds us on what seems like a daily basis, RBS is eighty percent owned by the taxpayer, so they’re probably geared towards protecting the UK Government.
I would be complaining in very, very loud terms if that happened at my current work… in fact, let me take a look….
Yep, both sides homepages freely available; I shall lay off bending the ear of the IT department for another day. 🙂
I may complain anyway, since the Better Together page is clearly insulting and designed to annoy anyone with a brain. It should be blocked on general principles.
I have removed the ‘tick’ in the box labelled ” Notify me of follow-up comments by email.” but still they come!
How long does this last/
Defence statement: Shipyards.
I Davidson:
Congratulates Mr Hammond for placing the 3 patrol ships and says that if Scotland was independent it would not have come to Scotland.
But when he asks about the need to wait for a decision before Type 26 frigates are allocated but was told that the only reason the order was not announced is because the plans have yet to be completed first.
Angus Robertson:
BAE says that Clyde is the best place does Mr Hammons agree.
Hammond says that it was a decision for BAE and that they have made it.
BBC national news clearly insinuating that English shipbuilding jobs have been lost to Scotland because of the independence referendum.
The rhetoric coming from the state broadcaster is clear – blame Scotland, not BAE or Westminster. Interview from one Portsmouth worker ‘ Portsmouth is better, we build a better product, our facilities are better – they’re getting our jobs – it’s no surprise as most of BAE management are Scottish.’
Aren’t these patrol vessels the very same ships that unionists were decrying wouldn’t keep the shipyards open on the Clyde if Scotland was independent. These vessels are now being hailed as life-savers by the very same people.
Andrew Neil of the BBC was showing his Scottish cringe in technicolour today – my how that man seems to hate the country of his birth!
BBC presenter, Andrew Neil, talking with reference to a reply made by David Cameron to Angus Robertson in the hoc today, said quote :
“He also said that if Scotland went independent we’d have no Navy ships at all – I think by ‘we’ he meant ‘they’ that Scotland wouldn’t – that’s probably not quite true, but just for ehm accuracy’s sake .. or an interesting fact, that eh, when the two parliaments were unified eh.. the Edinburgh and the Westminster in 1707, the English navy had 240 ships and the Scottish navy had 3…so, maybe we’ll go back to that ratio again..”
How very interesting that Andrew Neil who likes to blab about being Scottish is not only happy to denigrate his country of birth in this way, but also refer to the people of Scotland as ‘they’ and the English as ‘we’.
Good old blatantly biased propagandist BBC, preaching more anti Scottish rubbish.
@callmedave
But Hammond has now said ‘We couldn’t have made this decision if Scotland wasn’t in the UK’, or words similar. True political origami this one. Come on the SNP you need to ask ….’Are you saying you would force BAE to withdraw the Type 26 contract from Scotland if there is a YES vote next year?’
Oh well a Labour man asked. Basically not until Type 26 designs are complete at the end of next year will the decision be made where to award the contract BUT of course on the other hand BAE have said Scotland best to deliver Type 26, think I’ve got the game now. Phew. So the SNP need to call this one and their bluffing.
Well I don’t think the SNP MP’s have equipped themselves very well at all today in this debate. Why don’t they listen to the nuances and ditch their pre prepared questions, most tiresome.
“I have removed the ‘tick’ in the box labelled “ Notify me of follow-up comments by email.” but still they come!
How long does this last?”
Not a scooby, I’m afraid. Outwith my control.
@Call me Dave
Hammond says that it was a decision for BAE and that they have made it.
Heh, just so I’m understanding this right. Hammond washed his hands completely of the placing of orders due to national interest in favour of company expertise? So basically BAE surface vessel construction being based in Scotland was NOT a consideration for the MOD?
Oh dang, the chairchoob’s and in fact BT’s argument blown oot the watter wi’ one torpedo. 🙂
So does anyone know the timescale on the OPV’s? How long do they take to build?
Albalha
I missed a bit of the questions, had to go out, but I’m with you regarding the fuzziness of the Type 26 ships. This ‘design not complete’ story is probably true but highly convenient for them.
It can be seen as a big stick lying on the polling station table, especially in the West of Scotland.
But we got through the ‘noose’ picture in the Sun newspaper and have gone on to do well.
@Ivan
Naval ship building is covered on page 38 and I believe included in the total production figures quoted above (but its not very clear).
The UK seems to specialise in repair work rather than new builds with repair work accounting for over 93% according to figure 2.28 on page 58 (with Norway being nearly EXACTLY the reverse with about 93% newbuild)
Macart
Heavens no …politics never came into it!
😉
@callmedave
That’s why I’m trying to work out the timetable for the OPV’s, if that makes sense. I listened to it all and it was very wiggly wriggly, though the Type 26 narrative they’ll use is clear but, is it even accurate, what do BAE say, what will their relationship be with the MOD in the coming months. And the SNP chaps really didn’t help out.
By 2016 could Portsmouth take it on, if so at what cost given the satff will be laid off by the end of next year, so many questions the nature of his statement throws up, clearly deliberately.
This has just popped up on the WoS twitter feed, does anyone in the SNP do research? Oh well let’s hope they’ll get up to speed soon. And this is a 2011 report how long does it take to design a ship?
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/08/the-type-26-and-india/
Slightly O/T – Did anyone catch a comment on Call Kaye, that the UK Government (presumably Thatcher’s) were about to invest million on regeneration of the Clyde ship yards, but on reflection apparently , decided that it was too good for Scotland , spent the money instead on the Channel Tunnel?. The insinuation was based on a recent release of secret papers. Anyone come across this?
@ Ivan McKee
Good luck on AQ on Friday… looking forward to hearing you.
Lest your esteemed chairman tries to limit the time/number of questions relating to Scottish affairs; to date there have been 39 editions of the programme this year. 1 from Scotland, 1 from the USA, 2 from Wales and, obviously, 35 from England.
Would seem to me that anything less than the complete prog being dedicated to Scottish matters would be an injustice and show extreme bias in matters regarding…
RE the RBS site. I have a good friend who has senior links in RBS, and is on the case. Should be sorted ASAP.
Re RBS, Big Brother is watching you!