A long time in politics
This was Glasgow South West MP Ian Davidson speaking (around 5:40) on Scotland Tonight just over a week ago, in a debate about independence and left-wing values sparked by the findings of a poll commissioned by this very website.
His contention was that independence wasn’t necessary to achieve left-wing goals:
“I used to be a councillor in Strathclyde. In many ways Strathclyde was actually far more radical than the Scottish Government has ever been. We had clear policies to combat deprivation – there was an emphasis on pre-fives, there was an emphasis on tackling poverty and misery and class differences in education that no Scottish Government has replicated.”
When we heard that, we went and checked some dates.
Ian Davidson (born in the Borders in 1950) was a councillor on Strathclyde Regional Council from 1978 to 1992, at which point he was elected as a Labour MP. For the last six years of his time on SRC, the leader of the council was Sir Charles Gray.
Two obvious questions arise from those pieces of information.
1. If the powers of the council alone are sufficient to bring about Labour’s stated aims, why is the area once governed by the council still so catastrophically poor after almost four decades of these initiatives, containing all six of Scotland’s poorest constituencies (all represented by Labour MPs) and some infamously appalling statistics on life expectancy?
(And as for class-related educational outcomes, Govan High School in Davidson’s constituency is one of the worst-performing in Scotland, with just 18% of pupils managing to leave with even a single Higher, perhaps not unrelated to the fact that over 38% of them are in receipt of free school meals.)
2. Why has the man who led that council, Ian Davidson’s then-boss and party comrade and still a loyal Labour member, come out this week and said this?
The answer seems obvious, but maybe we’re missing something.
Its because Ian Davidson doesn’t have the interests of the people at heart.
Potentially Ian is worried about his own potential poverty when he loses his big income from London.
1st option: is that Labour has been eating heartily on anti tory & oddly anti westminster sentiment for the last 40 odd years. It has evolved into a UK version of Tammany Hall, which was the epitome of corrupt politics in 19th century in America. They’ve lost all sense of who they are and how their party got started. They have a sense of entitlement to the Scottish vote that is simply breathtaking.
2nd option: Is that labour is institutionally insane
3rd option: Labour has evolved into a parasite that feeds on poverty and needs it to define itself.
Lastly, the scary option: Its a combination of all three
Good to hear Charles Gray mention in his interview on Scotland Tonight that the MSM for their own agenda are obfuscating the referendum debate.
These MSM and politicos spouting the lies of the No Better Together campaign must surely have the intellect to know they are deliberately misleading the electorate. How on earth do they sleep at night?
Because he’s a self interested buffoon with his snout in the Westminster trough representing a party which has an interest in keeping those people where they are so that they can harvest their votes?
he is a dangerous man. no mistake
It’s all about keeping his and other Labour MPs’ jobs to the detriment of their constituents.
In other words fuck the poor! What a contrast to Charles Gray-a man of honour.
Davidson is to serious debate what Josef Mengele was to anaesthetic surgery!
You can just imagine Ian Davidson pledging to help the folk of Govan and then laughing his wee horrible head off when he gets behind closed doors and looks at his wage slips and bank balance.
If you want to know all thats wrong with Westminster Politics, look no further than Mr Funty McCuck there.
I believe what goes around comes aound and Davidsons lies and deliberate political inactivity to prevent his contituents having the chance to improve their lives in order to keep his luxury lifestyle will catch up with him. Everyone will cheer.
I see that the GMB Union members are furious with their union after the union said it was going to vote ‘No’ a couple of days ago.. Seems the members are very unhappy at being told to vote ‘No’ also.
I can’t link the ‘link’ to this site (I’m at work), but one can read about it in The Herald (2nd main news headline!)
Very good news indeed!
The difference between Labour politicians in the era of Denis Canavan and Charles Gray is that in the main they were principled politicians.
Nowadays the vast number of recent Labour politicians in Scotland are Blairite careerists who have never done a job outside the political bubble.
JLT
Try
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8286-questions-over-gmb-no-support-after-claims-process-had-poor-attendance-and-may-have-breached-rules
This is probably a good place to put this link to a Herald article from 1990 (courtesy of Iain Cuphook on Twitter yesterday): http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/region-seeks-buy-out-in-fight-to-the-death-1.576827 This is Strathclyde Regional Councillors talking about British Steel announcing their pulling out of Ravenscraig.
A furious Labour leader, Councillor Charles Gray, set the ball rolling on the constitutional issue when he told the council’s first post-election meeting: ”This is a fight to the death. It’s as simple as that. This is the first of the firm bricks being removed from our whole economy.
”If we lose this one, more will follow and Scotland will become a nation of forelock-pulling peasants. And then we will need, not an Assembly, but a Parliament.”
Later Councillor Gray confirmed his view that the total run-down of the Scottish steel industry posed a major threat to the United Kingdom. People would be asking questions about the governance of Scotland. And he added: ”They’re pushing us down a road from which there might be no return.”
The constitutional theme was developed by equally angry Liberal Democrats who also bemoaned the influence the so-called Welsh mafia seemed able to bring to bear on the operations of British Steel.
Group leader Dr Christopher Mason forecast that if the Government allowed this catastrophy to befall the Scottish economy then the balance of opinion in the Labour Party and in Scotland as a whole would shift almost overnight.
Should the steel industry, which was vital to Scotland’s economic growth in the twenty-first century, be sold down the river, then people were going to look at the Union and ask what it was for.
Referring to Government claims that home rule for Scotland would result in firms vanishing overnight, Dr Mason declared: ”Well, we’ve got the Union, and we’ve got British Steel leaving over the New year. It is the Union which is allowing industry and industrial control to go out of Scotland.
”Unless those who control the Union are prepared to address that issue and do something about it, then people will begin to ask: ‘What are we trying to save with the Union? What’s in it for us?’ ”
Bluto and his pals will be defeated provided we keep digesting the Wings spinach.
A long time in politics;
Peter Curran has put up the video of Charles Gray’s intention to vote Yes on Youtube.
No Rev you are not missing a thing. In fact you are spot on. I was born in 1954, 400 yards from Govan Road. It was poor then and is probably poorer again today. Anyone visiting the area today will no doubt be impressed by the shiny new buildings, the Science Centre and Pacific Quay look the part, but they don’t tell the real story of Govan. I used to teach pupils who lived in Govan (1987-2010), I listened to their parents stories of grinding poverty, drug dealing, alcohol abuse, sectarianism, unemployment and complete and utter despair. I also taught in Carntyne in Glasgow’s East End, the story was the same there. Two areas, two things in common, both represented year after year by Labour politicians whose only interest in the their area was to secure another majority at the next election. Labour politicians in Glasgow are epitomised by ‘Silent Alice’. Bet you haven’t heard of her? She was the Labour MP for the Gorbals from 1948-1969. The reason she was called ‘Silent Alice’ was because she only ever made one speech to the House of Commons – her maiden speech. I think that says it all about Glasgow Labour politicians!
Ian Davidson was Chair of Strathclyde Council’s Education Committee from 1986 – 1992.
Maybe that explains the generational failings of Govan High School and others in the region.
Mainly because Mr Davidson couldn’t give a monkey’s about his constituents then or now. The job and the party, the party and the job. Clearly the constituents were a means to an end. Poor souls still have that burden to carry even now and make no mistake Davidson is a fully fledged burden by anyone’s standards. (except of course parliamentary Labour’s)
rev ot
the dot scot domains will be available in January
I have reserved WOS.SCOT for you (about 50% chance of getting it)
If I get it , I’ll let you know, in case you want it
for you affendi, free of charge
The generosity of the bunny cat knows no bounds. 🙂
Interesting that Sir Charles Gray has joined the likes of Dennis Canavan, Tommy Brennan, Bob Thompson, John McAllion, Tommy Sheppard and Mary Lockhart in supporting a Yes vote in the independence referendum. Leaves the careerists in SLAB looking decidedly isolated.
If you look at Mr Davidsons questions, he seems more occupied with Mozambique than anywhere else but I did sigh at this absolute peach ( note his wording) :
Written Answers — Scotland: Battle of Flodden: Anniversaries (17 December 2012)
Ian Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to commemorate the five hundredth anniversary of the Battle of Flodden in 2013.
The (accidental i would imagine) juxtaposing of Sarwar and Charles Gray last night serves as a vignette of Labour’s transformation from the people’s party to the pod people party.
It’s true Stu. No one does investigative journalism like you do.
Thanks for this information.
The lesson is that Labour thrives on deprivation, it is in their narrow self serving interests to keep the people down and brainwash them that they are the peoples party.
Macart says:
The generosity of the bunny cat knows no bounds.
I have also reserved every bettertogether combination.scot at the same time…….
i doubt i will be so generous:)
dont tell em pike……lol
After reading about this mealy-mouthed pretence of a human being and getting all worked up I took a look at the SNP site for some light relief only to find this :
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/nov/labour-vote-against-council-tax-help-poorest
Are these people for real? I despair.
Have to say, I was greatly impressed by Charles Grey’s calm and dignified demeanor.
It was certainly a massive improvement on the current crop of insincere, finger wagging, eye-bulging Slabs we normally see on these programmes.
Davidson made but not a single, substantial, quantitative claim of tangible, physical, permanent improvement or benefit to anyone or anything during his time in Strathclyde Council or indeed at any time while his snout was grubbing around the Westminster income, benefit & expenses trough.
Each one of us can write impressive, well intended policies, publish them & present them to a receptive audience. But words only count when they are converted to wholly good actions that benefit the electorate both individually & collectively.
The on going miserable state of the constituencies that he has had the authority & means to improve proves that he is incompetent in his capacity as a councillor or an MP. Anyone with such a lousy track record of poor performance would in the private sector find it all but impossible to convince a prospective employer to give them any role with any level of accountability & responsibility.
Davidson, like the party he lusts to advance is a complete failure, neither properly representing those who elect him or achieving much of anything with regard to resolving generation spanning deprivation & poverty.
He aught to be ashamed of his disgraceful, wilful, disregard for his constituents & should (but we know he won’t) present his prompt resignation & consider taking a job with minimal responsibility such as a hose operator in a slaughterhouse.
Naw..sorry the turd still needs a “good punch in the puss” no debate with or about this ape.
My wife was buzzing in and out of the room when that interview was on with Davidson. She asked afterwards if he was a Tory MP. Surprised when I told her he was Labour she said he acted and sounded like a Tory. I think she meant condescending. Denis Canavan sounded honest whereas Ian Davidson came across as, well, sly. Says it all really. What a rebarbative character he is!
When I was a young lad at Galashiels Academy, we were joined by a pupil from Jedburgh. He was popular and fitted in well. He was called Ian, but his nickname, for obvious reasons, was “Jed” Davidson. His politics were left-wing, and he was quite active in the local Labour Party I believe. I often wonder what that easy-going, friendly lad is doing nowadays…….
Lifes imponderables….. why do men have nipples?, can you cry under water?, why do some Scots vote Labour?. You are probably as baffled as me.
Oh how the truth come back to haunt you !
Yes : Charles Gray former SRC leader did come across as a dignified convert to reason and has acknowledged the need to ‘Put Scotland First’, (now – where have we heard that time served slogan before ?). Many Labour voters will recognise Charles Gray as a level headed politician of some stature and he’s a good catch for YES.
Some brilliant research ther guys. Brilliant nice to see this wee hard nut squirm.
Davidson about SRC: “there was an emphasis on tackling poverty and misery and class differences in education that no Scottish Government has replicated.”
Thank fuck for that. Imagine if the whole of Scotland had the same problems his patch has?
“there was an emphasis on pre-fives, there was an emphasis on tackling poverty and misery and class differences in education that no Scottish Government has replicated.”
Aye, plenty of “emphasis” but any results? No, because you never were really serious about studying poverty, and getting to the bottom of why it happens – maybe this new centre might make progress where decades of Labour initiatives have failed. There are certainly no Robert Owens in Glasgow Labour.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24809974
A good few weeks ago I truly lost faith in Scotland Tonight and thought it had officially joined the dark side so went a few weeks without it. Then in a matter of just a week or so, we get them mentioning the Wings poll and then last nite a fair grilling of Anais Sarwar AND a former heavyweight in the labour party given time to explain the reasons why he is voting Yes, AND then allowed to list the names of others in Labour who are doing the same. Its probably a one-off but its vital to the Yes campaign that the media spotlight be shone more on Labour, their actvities, policies and their views on indy as its very likely that labour voters will decide the result next year.
@Doug Daniel
Good find I worked for SRC during the time of Charles Grey a good man and well liked.
“Not a good week for Labour” Understatement of the century! Some of this makes me so angry what these self serving vermin get up to. Some of this makes me happy that the lies and eternal infighting is doing them the damage they deserve. Yet people still vote for them “Dunfermline!”
Heartening to see some sense coming from Charles Grey and others like him. This makes me wonder what will become of the Labour party in Scotland. I hope that there is an all out civil war within the party. Hopefully this might just get rid of the filth that seeps from every orifice. They desperately need to get rid of the majority of the top ranks to make them a party worth even considering voting for. The thought of the likes of Davidson Curran, Sarwar. Lamont, Baillie, McMahon and their likes polluting the Scottish parliament after independence fills me with horror. Sadly I think that it will be the case as party loyalty seems ingrained within their voters.
See the hungrily sought Ermine Robes slip from Ian Davidson’s sweaty grasp…
…the more we get out and campaign for a YES 🙂
@schrodingers cat
I have also reserved every bettertogether combination.scot at the same time…….i doubt i will be so generous:)
Ah like yer style. 😀
My take on Mr Davidson
http://norrie.wordpress.com/
@EricF
From Jed the Red to Jed the Ned
From easy-going to needs-a-doing
Life is a cruel mistress..
schrodingers cat @ 1:56
Surely BT would only want .uk domain names?
OK BT.proud.scot might get sneaked in!
G H Graham
Anyone with such a lousy track record of poor performance would in the private sector find it all but impossible to convince a prospective employer to give them any role with any level of accountability & responsibility.
Oh come on, don’t be ridiculous! How many times have we read about some failed or shamed CEO or MD ‘walking away’ with a ‘golden handshake’ and then shortly after reappearing in a similar well paid position in some other company.
The drawing of a distinction between private (companies and business) and public (politics and Quangos) life, is beginning to look more and more naive (and that’s being generous). It’s a bloody rotating door between the two (spinning these days)!
These are the elites and it’s their feather bedding and no fail lifestyles that the general public is being sickened by, alienated politically from and that is in no little way helping drive forward a YES vote. It’s the hope of developing a different culture in an Independent Scotland that’s swinging all those undecided but upset with UK Plc voters!
At the moment, one hand washes the other! So please spare us the 1980’s schtic of ‘private sector good, public sector bad‘! Many thanks.
WIZ it no that great stalwart of Labour Donald Dewar that broke up SRC
Yes Archie [not Erchie] , and how strange this is not mentioned on the BBC news page.
O/T sorry Rev,
just a wee short video for anyone interested in how the Swiss vote on a Citizen’s Wage and the 12 to 1 laws is proceeding. It also gives a very interesting (but short) explanation of the Swiss Canton and Confederal government constitutional system. Very interesting framework for a possible Scots Constitution, mibbies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtG1O_JUOdM&feature=em-share_video_in_list_user&list=TLA2-VJPUzamNG5uVdpj6GCB2fqhyutBvI
The Labour Party of 40+ years ago is gone, as is my father & grand father (solid socialists) and they would be turning in their graves if they thought I had abandoned these principals. The current bunch of coo-coos who mascarade in the name of the Scottish Labour Party are a total disgrace and not worthy to use the title.
As an ex member of slab, ex member of usdaw I now vote SNP to uphold the traditions of my forefathers and my own descendants. I did’nt leave slab they left me.
Seeing charles Gray last night on tv reminded me of what is wrong with labour in Scotland today, it has been hijacked by the spin doctors and chancers bar a few, very few genuine people. If my forefathers could see what was happening in my country today in the name of labour they would pat me on the back for trying to save slab from itself.
People who vote blindly for labour out of respect for the past need to open their eyes and see what is going on.
For evil to succeed good men only have to do nothing!
So why did Strathclyde Regional Council ultimately fail in its mission, social justice for all, the improvement of people’s lives?
The reasons for failure were;
1. The encroachment of Westminster, central government that effectively blocked change.
2. The growing demand for District Councils to have more powers (localisation) resulting in Strathclyde Regional Council being abolished in 1996.
3. Regional bureaucracy that saw departments and departmental committees pursue their own agendas.
Are there not parallels here between the demise of Strathclyde Regional Council and the real threats to the Scottish Parliament? Maybe Strathclyde Council was more radical but it did not survive the wrath of Westminster and the demands for its destruction. What replaced it was weaker, ineffectual and more parochial. Is that not the lesson that likes of Ian Davidson and the Labour party should learn?
A strong Scottish Parliament free from the machinations of Westminster and petty party politics is the only way that social justice can be attained in Scotland.
@ Archie not Erchie (1.56 pm)
It’s worth posting some of what Archie linked to here on WOS for those who don’t check out the links provided by others.
Labour vote against council tax help for poorest
Tue, 05/11/2013 – 13:05
In the Scottish Parliament this morning, Labour voted against the Scottish Government’s Council Tax Reduction scheme, which used the Parliament’s powers to replace council tax benefit and protect around half a million households from Westminster’s 10 per cent cut in council tax benefit.
During today’s meeting of the Scottish Parliament’s Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, Labour did not back the regulations necessary to pass the policy.
If Labour had been successful, Scotland’s poorest would have lost out on the £40m funding plug – equivalent to around £75 for each household affected.
Last year, the Scottish Government and COSLA agreed to jointly invest around £40m a year to protect over half a million people across the country who would have been affected by the cut, including:
216,870 people aged over 65
70,130 people in receipt of Employment and Support Allowance
289,410 single females
85,000 single mums…”
More here: http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/nov/labour-vote-against-council-tax-help-poorest
@Schrodinger’s Cat:
Who’s getting the money for the .scot domains?
And why are they wasting time with it when we’ll get a 2-digit country code in 2016 just like every other nation?
@Gillie at 3.13
I can’t entirely agree abut the reasons for the demise of Strathclyde Regional Council. Basically it, and the other regional councils, were abolished by the Tories under John Major for party political reasons. SRC was impregnably Labour and was thought to be doing a fair job in difficult circumstances. The Tories thought – wrongly, as things turned out – that they could gerrymander the boundaries of the new all-purpose authorities to create some impregnable bastions of their own. In the process Glasgow got comprehensively shafted by having all its wealthy suburbs hived of into other council areas. It’s one of the great Labour scandals that they did nothing to correct this when they gained power in 1997.
Having said that, SRC was so large that it could never have worked under a devolved Scottish Parliament and Government. Its fate would have been sealed anyhow by Labour’s devolution project.
And why are they wasting time with it when we’ll get a 2-digit country code in 2016 just like every other nation?
all of the dot st, sd,sc,so,sl,sn and sd are taken
we wont get 2 digits, we will get at dotcodot what ever
dot scot is supported by the scottish governent, i think this is better. but you are right it has still to be decided in 2016, in the meantime jan this year dot scot will come on line………..plan ahead, it wasnt raining when noah built the ark
@Dennis Smith
I think a lot of the suburbs were glad to declare themselves outside of the Glasgow council area, much was the twisted mindset of those divide and conquer days.
@Schrodinger’s Cat 91.56 pm)
I have also reserved every bettertogether combination.scot at the same time…….
Ditto with Labour Party
According to what I read .scot wont be available until 1st Qtr 2015!!!!
We will have voted YES by then….
Ian Davidsoin, in the Glasgow Evening Times,today, quoted saying “The UK Government doesnt build ships in other countries”.
A rhetorical dig at shipbuilding on the Clyde, Mr Davidson then goes on to say the UK Government will install a, “Break clause” on any new order for vessels by the UK Government being built on the Clyde subject to the referendum outcome.
Meaning a no vote will see BAE Scotland, receive, shipbuilding orders, and a yes vote will have the opposite effect.
Mr Davidson admitted, he circulated leaflets in his constituency claiming “Separation shuts shipyards”.
Davidson is the chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster, added that Westminster said, the Clyde ship yards will not be eligible for for UK restricted orders.
BAE are due to announce before the end of the year, which one of their three shipbuilding yards will close, Govan, Scotstoun or Portsmouth.
Giant cranes at Govan are to be dismantled beginning next week, an ominous sign for the Govan Yard.
It strikes me that the guys and gals who are carrying the fight against the Labour Party in Scotland are the members of Labour for Independence who have up to date knowledge of the contemporary party and what does`nt make it tick.
They are fighting a lonely battle on the door steps and need all the help they can get.
As someone pointed out in an earlier post, the Referendum can only be won by turning the traditional Labour vote particularly in Glasgow and Inverclyde.
An obvious way to help is by donating to Labourforindy via their site. I have just done so and hope others will do so.
ha ha ha ha
nice one jimbo
you know
there are some really quite inspirational comments btl, as well as atl
“People who vote blindly for labour out of respect for the past need to open their eyes and see what is going on.
For evil to succeed good men only have to do nothing! “
Was there talk from Labour to increase the powers of the councils thereby reducing the effectivness of the Scottish Parliament?
Is Davidson laying the foundations for this agenda?
@schrodingers cat
Thanks muchly for the heads-up, I’ll try to reserve the .scot address for my business site.
I have found that, as the indy debate has progressed, having a .co.uk address has started to grate a bit !
@Andy B
Does Korea count as another country?
http://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/sinking-feeling-as-uk-shipbuilding-contract-is-awarded-to-south-korean-firm/
@schrodingers cat
Are you the same mibi deid mibi no feline that used to comment a lot on the RDFRS forum?
RDFRS
not sure what that is, but yes, i have used this handle for many years
@Memphisto.
Thats right it stinks of hypocrisy, a veiled threat if ever there was one.
Meanwhile, the two aircraft carriers costs, have rocketed to £62 billion quid double the original cost. The excuse for this, “We inherited this flawed contract from Labour said a Tory spokesman.
O/T for anyone who is interested, the scot govt white paper takes 5 hours to read and described as very detailed. from a horses mouth.
@schrodingers cat
Richard Dawkins’s site. But if it was you, I’m sure you’d have know that.
If it was, I like your contributions both there and here. If not, the handle alone must convey some magical powers to its holders.
@david got a link?: )
Just kidding
5 hours? That’ll be 5 months for me, then.
It’s as I’ve always said, time and time again, Labour is rotten to the core. Four decades of power in Glasgow and still so little, if anything, has been done to improve the lives of it’s citizens. It could also be said the they have become more impoverished not less.
actually described as encyclapedic but couldnt spell encyclapedic.
How can a country (Independent mind) the size of Norway with a similar population as Scotland have so many successful shipbuilding yards?.
http://www.stxosv.com/products/pages/shipbuilding.aspx
It is possible to be a successful shipbuilding country, after independence, as Norway shows.
Talking of Norway came upon this little gem the other day
http://reportingthereferendum.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/creation-myth.html
I don’t think you can have a rational debate with someone like Davidson. I think he really could never imagine his countrymen being capable of reproducing anything like the Norwegians.
He reflects his inferiority complex across the whole of Scottish society. He is quite happy to be governed by anyone implementing any policies – just so long as they are not elected by the inhabitants of Scotland.
5 hours? That’ll be 5 months for me, then.
The BT turkeys are going to be very busy during the Christmas hols. Wot a bummer!
@mealer, first comment:
Unlikely, don’t you think? I mean, he’d have to have a heart first.
5 hours? That’ll be 5 months for me, then.
Ian Davidson will spend all of 5 minutes reading it (stretching his attention span) and then announce:
“We have carefully anulyzed the seperatists’ document and concluded that it is a pile of shite!”
DOUG, five hoors tae read jist pick oot the bits you think ah need tae keep informed ha ha
RITE REV, if there,s nay over time am clockin oot , see you,s aw the morra folks
I grew up in Strathclyde and lived under the council every year between 77 and 94 and he’s talking complete and utter bollocks. But nobody really needed me to say that did they?
Almost everybody I knew lost their job in the 80’s, my school was falling apart, there was nothing for “yoofs” to do, there was no jobs to apply for. About the only way out for folks was free uni places and a grant if you qualified. Then Labour went and got rid of even that post devolution.
5 HOURS! Oh dear, if true, that sounds like a mistake to me. Surely we need a short punchy, inspirational document that can be easily spread among and understood by the general public?
Detail is for the unnatural policy wonks among us. I don’t believe such a mistake will be made……
@david,
I read somewhere that the Gov. white paper was being reduced to book size for the people to digest, that a Scottish writer and poet was given the job to make it easier and less boring for us to understand. I seem to remember on Sunday politics that the BBC trashed the report as being useless because this person was being made out to be the writer of the Gov. paper and not the Scottish Gov. Sorry I have no links for this, maybe someone can find it.
OT. BBC Radio p.m. show has just said that the Govan shipyard will not close. But announced job losses too.
Braco
“5 HOURS! Oh dear, if true, that sounds like a mistake to me. Surely we need a short punchy, inspirational document that can be easily spread among and understood by the general public?
Detail is for the unnatural policy wonks among us. I don’t believe such a mistake will be made……”
I get your point, but wouldn’t such a lightweight document be ripped to shreds for being light on detail? Having said that, I assume that there will be an executive summary, short presentations, pamphlets etc. Nobody would realistically expect the typical person to read a typical white paper!
Edit: see Elizabeth Sutherland comment above – sounds like a good idea!
At the start of the twentieth century Glasgow was one of the world’s most prosperous and vigourous cities. It was the home of Clyde-built ships, Lord Kelvin and Charles Rennie Mackintosh. It also had undeniable social problems: The Red Clydesiders didn’t emerge from nowhere.
Then the Labour party took power in George Square and they’ve remained in power until today. Since then our largest city has declined steadily until it became the place it is today. Poverty and deprivation are commonplace. Life expectancy is infamously short.
Could this be due to the Labour party? After all their leading members, like Mr. Davidson, rely on the votes of desperate people to send them to Westminster.
An impoverished Glasgow ensures that the likes of Ian Davidson can live in comfort.
Shewing my age, Beveridge’s Report was a best seller in its day!
Last year, BAE System’s UK chief executive John Whitehead said last November the firm would have to “reduce its footprint” after the completion of the carrier contract.
John Robertson, MP for Glasgow North West, said: “It’s not major unless it’s one yard.
“At the moment it is just speculation, we always knew there were going to be job losses and it doesn’t mean any yards are going to close.” .. http://news.stv.tv/west-central/247248-bae-systems-to-cut-clyde-shipyard-jobs-in-scotstoun-and-govan/
Can some informed No Better Together person please explain why we have to accept there will be job losses?
“BAE Systems is to cut potentially more than 1,000 jobs from three of its UK shipyards at Govan and Scotstoun in Glasgow and at Portsmouth.” BBC Scotland website. Better Together bullshitters.
@Braco
The White Paper has to be very detailed because if it is not then the No campaign and MSM will rip it apart. It has to be backed up by evidence and facts.
Doug says:
I get your point, but wouldn’t such a lightweight document be ripped to shreds for being light on detail? Having said that, I assume that there will be an executive summary, short presentations, pamphlets etc. Nobody would realistically expect the typical person to read a typical white paper!
the Order of Tiron has been reformed……….maybe we should ask them to write a summary
the Arbroath Chapter did a good job last time
Best broadcaster on the planet.
Graeme Demianyk @GraemeDemianyk 1h
Nick Robinson reporting Plymouth among shipyards to lose jobs when BAE announces cuts this week – even though it’s owned by Babcock
https://twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk
BAE to cut possibly more than 1,000 UK shipyard jobs
2013-11-05 17:15:13 UTC
“BAE Systems is to cut potentially more than 1,000 jobs from its UK shipyards at Govan and Scotstoun in Glasgow and at Plymouth and Portsmouth.”
2013-11-05 17:50:03 UTC
“BAE Systems is to cut potentially more than 1,000 jobs from three of its UK shipyards at Govan and Scotstoun in Glasgow and at Portsmouth.”
http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/702652/diff/0/1
proudscot says:
Davidson is to serious debate what Josef Mengele was to anaesthetic surgery!
Hahaha!! One of the best descriptions of this man I’ve ever heard! Brilliant!
Linda’s Back
Hi Linda. No, the problem wasn’t setting up the link. The problem was I was reading it at the time on the Herald website on a work’s PC. I didn’t want to setup a link and post over the network incase I had the IT Security Team wanting to know what it was, I was posting over their network (believe me, these financial giants get very, very anal over anything being posted to the outside world from their network. It can be a sackable offence if it looks like you’re having a dig at them, or the industry in general!)
Govan – death by a thousand cuts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24827221
Doug and Muttley,
yes I take your point, but 5 HOURS!? That sounds like BetterNO and the(ir) media will be able to rip it to shreds by simply fabricating what’s in it, as very few real punters are gony actually trawl through five hours worth of political writing.
That’s just more of the same ‘We say, they say’ kind of crap we have to struggle with every day at the moment!
We cannot rely on interpretations by the media and political correspondents! We need first hand knowledge delivered directly and easily into the hands of the average voter. (Only in my opinion of course).
I would just wait and see what the White Paper looks like.
If it’s biblical, then we need to break it down into short fast facts, print it off, and then get it to everyone we know. We place reference points in the quick fast facts sheet and reference it to the topic and what page it is on in the White Paper. This should help people if they really want to know more, and thus reference back to it in the White Paper.
As said …we just wait and see…
I know someone posted a link about Norwegian shipyards earlier, here is a list of all the ships that small nation’s yards delivered last year alone, one word, WOW!!:
http://www.shipbuildingnorway.com/volume-17/ships-delivered-in-2012-2/
(Q) What does Norway have that Scotland doesn’t?
(A) Norwegians.
You have to respect Davidson’s tenacity in protecting what he believes in – himself!
Scotland Tonight has Ian Davidson and James Dornan, SNP MSP, on to discuss BAE/Govan job losses.
Its time this guy was put out to pasture
The white paper needs to be very detailed and explain the how and why of Scottish Independence. Why this is both in Scotland’s interest and the overlwheming evidence from every angle suggests this to be the case. Then go into the mechsnics of what will happen after a yes vote regarding negotations etc. This should be for the politicos, lawyers, accountants etc to mull over.
Then there should be a condensed easy to read 20 main reading “white paper for dummies” for the ordinary voter distributed to every household in Scotland along with appropriate internet sites related to the debate.
Scotnight BAE/Govan discussion ended with James Dornan saying that Ian Davidson should be fighting to keep his constituents in jobs – cut to screen showing Ian Davidson shaking his his head and saying ‘nonsense’.
Who on earth votes for this man. Seriously, if there are any WoS readers out there who voted for him, please tell me why? And, will you vote for him again?
And to make matters worse, John McTernan on Newsnicht – back, now that he’s probably out of a job in Oz 🙁
And now Ian Davidson and Stuart Maxwell on Newsnicht.
Wow, I wonder how many ‘No’ voters Ian Davidson is converting to “Don’t Know’ or ‘Yes’ right now, due to his appalling performance on BBC right now. Car Crash.
@Elizabeth Sutherland
William McIlvanney for one is helping write the White Paper – should be a good read and hope there’s an audio version.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/13/alex-salmond-white-paper-william-mcilvanney
Hold that last post – I can’t find any link actually confirming McIlvanney in the gig, so I am not sure it is in fact happening. I could be wrong either way.
That idiot Davidson wants a “get out” clause wrote into the contract, so they can take the frigate contract back to Portsmouth when we vote YES.
I have never heard so much rubbish in all my life. Portsmouth will close, so there will be NO yard in Portsmouth to build the frigates.
The frigate contract WILL be built on the Clyde. Davidson also says that the UK has never built warships in a foreign land. Well there is a first time for everything.
BAE are thinking about costs here and Govan and Scotstoun are in the best position economically to build these ships.
So Mr Davidson you will not get your “clause” wrote into the contract. You Dickhead.
Vote Yes in 2014 with confidence.
Can we have similar ‘Get Out’ clauses written into every Westminster MP’s contract?
I am confident we will vote Yes in Sept, but I think we need to show solidarity to our English brothers and let them know that leading Labour MP’s advocate ‘Get Out Clauses’ for government contracts, so it wouldn’t be a big leap to write this type of contract into MP’s job description.
I know from personal experience that our English brothers feel as sick about Westminster troughers and incompetent place-men as we Scots, so they will certainly be up for the suggestion.
‘ I have also reserved every bettertogether combination.scot at the same time…….
i doubt i will be so generous:)
dont tell em pike……lol ‘
Where are you guys doing this? it’s my understanding they are not taking registrations. If it’s through a third party I’m sure they won’t be amused.
BBC lies. The BBC is crap.
Never has there been so much biased comment.
Total taxes raised in Scotland £60Billion Scotland gets £48Billuon back.
Total revenues raised in the UK £610Billion .
Westminster spends £720Billion.
The rest of the UK borrows and spends 3 times more than Scotland.
Scotland would need to spend £70Billion to be borrowing and spending as the rest of the UK.
Unemployment in Portsmouth 3%
Unemployment in Govan 10%?
Unemployment Portsmouth 3%
Unemployment Govan 15%
Portsmouth to close according to BBC. So if the MOD operate Iain Davidson’s break clause, they’ll have to have them built in France!
The empire strikes back!archive.is/feFz7
Thanks to @lumilumi on another thread it seems that the SG needs to make clear that an independent Scotland would subsidise shipbuilding and compete with other EU states, who do just that, for commercial contracts. (Basically cancelling out the impact of cheaper labour costs elsewhere). That in additon to the needs of a Scottish defence force, sorted. Yes?
@ CMD
I got to this bit and burst laughing outloud:
“values without ideas are meaningless”
This from (S)LAB, the party that has abandoned all its values and principles and has no ideas, except to oppose everything SNP says or does and then pretend to copy the SNP policies before elections (for viewers in Scotland), or to promise to out-Tory the Tories in cuts and other right-wing policies (for viewers in England).
BBC News woman, Sophie someone I believe – ‘Scots TOON’, dearie me.
Hope the white paper guarantees ship building for SDF…….
As Davidson had steered the interview away from polls to his worldview that his politics is more important even than economics, can we look forward to the next poll and see how important economics is in the referendum?
I suggest a question along the lines of:
Both No and Yes are arguing on the basis that the UK economy is strong and stable (shared pound, spread the risk, etc.). Already there are commentators making the case that the UK economy is not as safe as it seems. If the UK economy is not in fact strong and stable, would this affect how you will vote?
Much more likely to vote Yes : More likely to vote Yes
Makes no difference
Much more likely to vote No : More likely to vote No
This picks up on Jim Cuthbert for the Jimmy Reid last April, Martin Wolf in the FT at the weekend and Peston on the Beeb site today.