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Seeing no ships

Posted on November 06, 2013 by

It’s bleakly appropriate that we found ourselves having this conversation with the former Labour spin doctor and now BBC political pundit John McTernan on the day that BAE announced almost 1800 job losses.

That’s learning lessons Labour-style, folks.

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  1. 09 01 15 14:00

    Scottish Labour For Dummies 2015 | FreeScotland
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77 to “Seeing no ships”

  1. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    RIGHT. Thanks to Wings Technical Support (Doug Daniel to his mum) I’ve retrieved and restored the “proper” version of this piece, which means the first few comments made no sense at all, so I’ve deleted them. As you were.

  2. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    Ach Rev dinnae fash yirsel. In some folks een white is black, we ca’ them blind.

  3. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s comical the way folk like McTernan simply cannot entertain the idea that they might not be utterly flawless. People who cannot admit to mistakes are of absolutely no use to making decisions – in fact, they’re detrimental to the decision-making process. They don’t live in the real world, and if you can’t admit you made a mistake, you can’t take action to avoid repeating it.
     
    But then, what else do we expect from a Scottish Labour apparatchik?

    (Incidentally, it’s always “Douglas” to my mum.)

  4. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    LOL
     
    I never said that and even if I said it I obviously didn’t say. It isn’t what I meant anyway. What is wrong with you? What is with this holding people to definitive statements thing? I am a Labour spin doctor…nothing I say is supposed to be taken literally FFS! Even Johann knows that…probably.  

  5. Dave Beveridge
    Ignored
    says:

    “Obsession” – stock answer from someone that’s just made an arse of themselves.

  6. Jimbo
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s just your typical Unionist. 
     
    The truth does not suit my agenda, so therefore cannot be true.

  7. Alba4Eva
    Ignored
    says:

    From…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTernan;
     
    “In 2007 McTernan was seconded to the Scottish Labour Party to run its campaign for the May Scottish Parliament general election. The Scottish Labour Party lost power.”
     
    …Haha!

  8. Beastie
    Ignored
    says:

    Ah, grand. Even when you show them the evidence that they said exactly what you are saying they did, and did it in a completely clear, unambiguous way, they still deny they a; said it or b; meant it like that or c; you’ve completely misunderstood what I said. Or all three.

    Either way, it’s your fault for misunderstanding their completely clear statement, not their fault for saying it then trying to claim they didn’t mean it like that at all. Trouble is two minutes of clear statements on video are very, very hard to refute.

  9. BM
    Ignored
    says:

    This is called “Year zero-ing” – it doesn’t matter what I said or did before, because that was before “year zero”, when I wiped the slate clean, and we started everything a-fresh.

    *When* “year zero” was, is up to the defendant, not the accuser.

  10. John grant
    Ignored
    says:

    That animal is among if not the worst that labour has to offer. I can feel a real bitterness a dangerous one creeping into this debate , we must be winning????

  11. Illy
    Ignored
    says:

    He’s a Statist.
    He doesn’t seem to understand the concept that the law is fluid, and that people will make the law do what they see as right.  (And probably just ignore it when they can’t)
    Which, incidentally, if it was true, would remove one of the biggest reasons for politicians to exist…

  12. Gillie
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh dear John McTernan caught misspeaking again.  

  13. Robert McDonald
    Ignored
    says:

    Typical Labour type, just shouts over the top of another speaker (Sarwar had lessons from him I guess).
     
    “Incidentally, it’s always “Douglas” to my mum.”
    I thought that was just when you were in trouble!

  14. megsmaw06
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T a bit. Watching the news on BBC (aye, I ken) and apparently it’s Scotland’s fault BAE have shut down Portsmouth.
    Even though the reporter answered his own question of “why?” with “the Scottish yards are better equipped for producing war ships”.

    Looks like a shitstorm is imminent.

  15. Jim Finlayson
    Ignored
    says:

    The first time I clapped eyes on McTernan was when he gave the interview referred to above when he said that there would be”no referendum”. He seemed to disappear from the scene for a long time soon after that. I then heard him being interviewed on the radio a couple of months ago about the prospects of the Australian Labour Party in their general election. Apparently they were daft enough to employ him as a spin doctor after he fled these shores. There he was, spouting forth about how close the result would be. The Australian Labour Party got absolutely hammered. I personally hope that the No campaign give him a job because – as demonstrated in the clip of that interview – he is not very good at his job. If you add that to the fact (as also demonstrated above) that he is clearly having problems with his memory, then he does not have a lot going for him.

  16. Frost
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe he did say it once, on video, in a drunken stupor but he didn’t say “there wouldn’t be a referndum” on a regular basis;-)

  17. James Kay
    Ignored
    says:

     “… obsession with my back catalogue.”
     
    Up to this point, the exchange is the standard ‘I said … you said‘ and ‘… you know I meant …’
     
    But if we cannot look at, or comment on, a politician’s back catalogue, how can we ever hold them to account?

  18. MajorBloodnok
    Ignored
    says:

    @Frost
     
    Once is enough in the twitterverse…

  19. Jiggsbro
    Ignored
    says:

    The trouble with you non-political types is that you stick to this out-dated idea that ‘said’ means ‘what I said’, rather than ‘what would have been said if I’d been correct, with the benefit of hindsight, a full impact analysis and focus group input to determine where the energy was in the debate’.

    Your complete lack of understanding is betrayed by your over-reliance on discredited ‘evidence’, which has long been replaced by more modern schools of thought, such as ‘wishful thinking’ and ‘ignoring the man behind the curtain’.

    Enjoy your stone-age ‘rational debate’. Meanwhile, ‘reality innovators’ and ‘narrative entrepreneurs’ like McTernan and Lamont will be at the bleeding-edge of modern political leadership, leading politics into a bright new future*
     
    *’Bright’ may mean ‘dark’, dependent on future lighting conditions.

  20. Atypical_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    Cameron had his finger on the button poised to push it…,
     
    …Then he thought, ‘Nah, I’ll just go up to Edinburgh and get another jumper at the same time.’

  21. MochaChoca
    Ignored
    says:

    Is there a word for getting badly reamed on twitter?

  22. Keef
    Ignored
    says:

    This latest from Mcternan proves once again that you don’t need a long neck to look like a goose.
     
    For Cameron and the better together shower of fraudsters, the goodship UK is quickly sinking, how ironic that at they choose this time to cut 1800 jobs in the shipyards.

  23. Craig P
    Ignored
    says:

    The constitution is a reserved matter… except when it isn’t. 
     
    Taking the letter of the law as opposed to the principles of justice as your starting point leaves you at a disadvantage in an argument over what is right or wrong. Now I think about it, much of ‘Project Fear’ is based on arguments following that flawed precept.
     
    At least he did not say “what I have been saying is…”. Perhaps Twitter’s character limit is to thank for that 🙂

  24. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    Ten months to go and the unionist troughers in Scottish Labour are starting to feel the heat.  It’s only a matter of time before one snaps completely.
     
    Popcorn ready.

  25. tartanfever
    Ignored
    says:

    Very O/T – but this is unbelievable..
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24835322.
     
    ‘Two students who dressed as the Twin Towers in a fancy dress competition have been condemned by university and students’ union bosses.
    University of Chester students Amber Langford and Annie Collinge, both 19, won the Halloween competition at a nightclub in Chester.
    Their outfits depicted flames and explosions during the 11 September 2001 attack on the World Trade Center.’

    You gotta see the picture – it’s bad enough going dressed as the buildings, but going dressed with them being destroyed by flames is frankly bizarre.

  26. Arturo
    Ignored
    says:

    MochaChoca says:
    Is there a word for getting badly reamed on twitter?

     
    Twit-roasted?

  27. creigs1707repeal
    Ignored
    says:

    FFS – it’s like trying to nail jelly to a wall. McTernan, You damn well know you said it The evidence has nailed you. Grow a backbone and just admit you were wrong. This continual denial just makes you look like a bare-faced liar.
    Spin doctor. Ah, I see….

  28. Rod Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    The Rev will now be accused of bullying poor defenceless McTernan  .
    A typical vile cybernat attack

  29. orri
    Ignored
    says:

    It was a manifesto pledge of the SNP to hold a consultative referendum. The fact that a YES result would have placed Westminster in the position of having to accept it or be seen to be ignoring the self determination of one of the countries making up the UK notwithstanding. Legal precedent shows that Parliamentary Sovereignty does not exist as a concept in Scotlands legal system. The granting of the right to hold a binding referendum was a face saving gesture on Westminsters part. What it means is that for this referendum, at least, Holyrood now has the right to proceed and have the result binding on Westminster.

    On the other hand this might simply be a tipping of the hand to the ludicrous Plan B I’ve seen suggested elsewhere that should the vote be Yes but in 2015 Labour are elected then somehow independence might be aborted isn’t the pipe dream it seemed but rather a reality. After all if we’ve already got a denial of the passing of constitutional powers to Holyrood then that and the idea of one parliament being unable to bind the hands of the next a Labour administration needing scots seats to remain in power might resort to desperation.

  30. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    Twattered?

  31. Jimsie
    Ignored
    says:

    Does this McTernan chappie live in Scotland ? Will he have a vote in the referendum ?

  32. Jimbo
    Ignored
    says:

    ” If you add that to the fact (as also demonstrated above) that he is clearly having problems with his memory”
     
    He that he categorically stated “There will be no referendum”, as he well knows.
     
    It appears to be more the case that he’s quite clearly having a problem with being honest and admitting that he was wrong.

  33. James Morton
    Ignored
    says:

    I see he employs the tactics I like to refer to as the Hothersall Maneuver. You deny you said anything of the Kind. You assert that you really meant something else. You assert that the something else was totally different from the previous something else. You finally make a flippant and absurd asides when you can no longer defend any position you may or maynot have been holding. – rinse and repeat until the questioner gives up in exasperation. Declare Victory.

  34. Rod Mac
    Ignored
    says:

    I rarely ever agree with a Tory on anything ,let alone Cameron.
    However reading Mcternan’s twitter clash with the Rev.
    Cameron was right , too many tweets make a twat  ,  capiche Mcternan?

  35. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    I see Hammond was more concerned with putting the boot into Labour rather than pander to their Better Together rannygazoo. Davidson et al got short shrift. Intrigued by the suggestion of turning Portsmouth ship yard into a commercial port. If that were to happen then it would be hard to play the recall card for the Type 26s. Of course they could just ask Korea to build them.

  36. Jimbo
    Ignored
    says:

    Damn – too late to edit

  37. A2
    Ignored
    says:

    “I’ve just cut your arm off”
    “it’s only a flesh wound”

  38. ronald alexander mcdonald
    Ignored
    says:

    To defend McTernan has anyone actually proved than 1 plus 1 is 2.

  39. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    There were a number of similar assertions on the Guardian over the last 18 months.
     
    There would be no referendum,
    There would be no Holyrood control over the question
    There would be no 16/17 franchise
    The electoral commission would not work to Holyrood.
     
    The only call made that was correct was that there would be no Devo Max question. That is a fair shout because they have no intention of offering anything so including the question would have been suicide.  

  40. gordoz
    Ignored
    says:

    J McTernan  Labour party Brit Nat idiot – wouldn’t take any lessons from that clown.
     
    Not sure he remembers what, never mind where Scotland is until election night !

  41. BillyBigbaws
    Ignored
    says:

    Frost said: “Maybe he did say it once, on video, in a drunken stupor but he didn’t say “there wouldn’t be a referndum” on a regular basis;-)”

    Rob Ford reference?  Haha.  That guy has almost succeeded in making me grateful for Stephen Purcell. 

  42. Linda's Back
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T but not entirely.
    Lets look at the Norwegian way forward for shipbuilding.
    Norwegian Shipyards direct their business activities towards four main markets: offshore vessels, advanced fishing vessels, passenger/car ferries and specialised coastal vessels.
    All together there are 75 yards which are focusing on new building and ships repair. There are approx. 25 pure new building yards, a number which has been almost stable the last decade. One shipyard, however, is operating very well both in new building and ships repair, even though there are two different ways to operate as to disciplines.
     
    During the last 10 years three groups of shipyards have been established: STX OSV (Aker Yards), Bergen Group and HavYard Group. The number of operating shipyards within these groups remains the same as before. The big scale down of yards in Norway was in the 1975 and 1990.
    Even if we consider some of our shipyards as large, they are categorised as medium or small shipyards compared to European standards.
     
    The high wage levels in Norwegian industry force the ship yards to compete on the construction and delivery of advanced vessels for offshore or specialised trades.
    The global demand for new ships has gained after the financial crisis in 2008 which put the contracting on halt. Norwegian shipyards have improved on new orders, and have an order book in the beginning of 2013 which has remained nearly the same over the last 2 – 3 years. A horizon of 1½ – 2 years is normal.
     
    Norwegian yards build specialist ships with a high level of expertise. The hulls are built in low cost countries, often in shipyards where the Norwegian yards have interests. Despite the fact that the official subsidy is taken away, the hulls are more complete than ever when arriving at the Norwegian yard. This means that the workforce often has a high level of competence. Shipbuilding is vital to many local communities along the Norwegian coast and in many instances, the shipyards are cornerstone companies.
     
    Ships completed in Norway in 2011 / 12
     
    http://www.shipbuildingnorway.com/

  43. Luigi
    Ignored
    says:

    I see fantastic Norwegian-built ships in Aberdeen Bay every day.  Aberdeen Harbour is full of huge oil support vessels that service the oil platforms.  Not one of them was built in the UK.  We just don’t build things any more – plenty of jobs in call centres and supermarkets though.  Very sad.

  44. MochaChoca
    Ignored
    says:

    @Linda, makes you wonder why the blinking flip we aren’t doing the same sort of thing.

  45. crisiscult
    Ignored
    says:

    One downside of the internet is that it has allowed adults to revert to an argument style that was mostly employed by the under 16s in the past. Take today’s Michael McKeown (possibly real name?) comments on the Herald Clyde story. One approach he has taken is that unless something has been proven (probative evidence required, not enough that it has been witnessed by two people), then it is not true and indeed the most likely explanation is that it is made up. Is this argument from ignorance e.g. absence of proof is proof of absence? McTernan is using the gravity game, if I understand my fallacious arguments (which I’m not great on so happy to be corrected).

  46. Frost
    Ignored
    says:

    @BillyBigbaws
    Yup, that was indeed a Rob Ford reference!

  47. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘Course the glaringly obvious truth being avoided by the likes of Davidson and the rest of BT is that the gradual erosion of Clydeside manufacturing happened under their watch. Under the watch of all the Westminster parties and their economic strategies of the past fifty years. The people of these areas are seen as electoral cannon fodder for general elections. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
    So, a simple choice for everyone from the Clyde estuary up to Govan. More of the same or do you fancy a change? Do you not want a government that you have voted for to put your needs first? If you don’t, then vote no. If you do, then vote yes. The people of Clydeside have already seen what they’ve got to lose up close and personal under Westminster governance. They haven’t seen yet what they could possibly gain from having a government representative directly answerable to them.

  48. pa_broon74
    Ignored
    says:

    McTernan’s real problem has been that he wasn’t ‘clear’. Instead of ‘What I actually said…’ or ‘blah blah blah and I was right’ and ‘you can quote…’ He should have prefixed his statements with ‘let me be clear about this…’ or ‘I’m going to be clear about this because…’
     
    It works for Lamont and Sarwar. Obviously McTernan has been out of the country for too long.
     
    (Was he not turfed out of Oz because his Visa wasn’t in order?)

  49. velofello
    Ignored
    says:

    Have been asleep on duty again? I understood there is no constitution in the UK, just a sort of custom and practise facility for the Mother of Parliaments? And then there are laws, for most of us.
     
    Well if rUK Royal Navy ships aren’t going to be built at Portsmouth it looks as if rUK and independent Scotland might be friends after all and we will build their ships for them, and a few for ourselves. Economies of scale, mutual interest, blah blah. Listening to our buffoon Davidson MP I did wonder where would be his work-in -progress point of no return w.r.t. viably taking the frigates contract back from Scotland in the event of a Yes vote?

  50. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    pa_broon74
    That’s correct he was an advisor in the election but backed the wrong kangaroo in a two horse race, consequently no job.   
    It was a case of no job back to blighty (sorry) UK.

  51. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry.
    Kangaroo in a two horse race……It’s an age thing 🙂
    Golly gosh just watching Mags in the HOC what a sight. Still got her flannel nighty on!

  52. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Mocha Choca, Hows aboot BACK CATALOUGE ( Nae VASALEEN ) sos Rainbow All could nt rescist 

  53. Barontorc
    Ignored
    says:

    A guy I met in the South Pacific from Australia, an on-the-ball-type, articulate, a world traveller, not boring  but congenial – pinned McTiernan down as a real shit, he’s paid to be a shit and they took him to Oz to be a shit,  spinning and dishonesty are his tools of trade and now he’s getting kicked out of the country with his tail between his legs. Failed again it seems – on all fronts! So, good to see him ‘assisting’ the No-ists – YES!

  54. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Box of Chocs tae DouGs mum, fur gitting the media back on track 

  55. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    Greenock 2013: I see no ships either. More important I see no shipyards.

    Greenock 1960: I saw dozens of ships, I saw and heard the activity surrounding shipyards, fitting out docks, engine makers, steering gear makers, dry docks, cranes by the dozen all nodding away. Thousands of men buzzing about, when you left school there were plenty of places to look for work. Two sugar houses, mining equipment makers. 

    Westminster decided these were yesterday’s industries worn out done not very sexy not worth supporting. “The White heat of technology was the way forward”, the service industries, banking, investment all centred in London that was the way forward. Well westminster were and it’s very nice to see your plan worked out. We have made the supreme sacrifice come and look and listen to poor old Greenock now. I hope your all proud of yourselves. Thanks for all your efforts. YES we could have made a better job of our own demise. Yes look after your own we weren’t better together, we fell together.

  56. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Ranald Alexander Mc Donald, Naws the answer tae your question ma Abbicuss is broke Fekin beads awe ower the flair,  Whit colours WAN

  57. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    All this splattering on our radios and tv’s is down to information which was to be made official tomorrow being leaked.
     
    Robertson and Davidson on tv now Politics Scotland. BBC 1 tv

  58. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Interview with Angus Robertson  / Ian Davidson  on commons green Davidsons puffed oot  he must hiv run across the road ( he feirt he would lose his appearance fee
     

  59. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Davidson still peddling the better together line that the Type 26 frigates maybe ayes / maybe nos coming to Scotland but better to stay in the union just to be sure.
    Blether with B at Holyrood, asking Ruthie 
    ‘is the frigate order secure if there is a YES vote’
    Aye Ruthie will be on the cusp for that one!
     
    But she said ‘ Royal Navy warships have never been built in a foreign country’ So that will be that then.

  60. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    It seems Mr McTernan, can’t or more to the point won’t admit, his remark.
     
    Tisk tisk tisk, how very childish of Mr McTernan.

  61. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    Politics scotland: Ruth Davidson- A Fud.
                              SNP guy – lightweight
                               McIntosh- clown
                               Harvy- realist best of the bunch

  62. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    Regarding, the BAE saga, and the UK governments stance, did I hear correct on Politics Scotland today.
     
    That three ships are to be built at Govan/Scotstoun, not because it was the best yard, but, because, written into BAE’s contracts with the MoD, if the Scottish yards and possibly, Portsmouth yard as well, were mothballed, until further notice, the UK Government would have to keep on paying, the shipyard staff.
     
    If indeed this was the case, the UK Government, will be feeling pretty smug with themselves thinking they’ve killed two birds with the one stone, by prefering Govan and Scotstoun to Portsmouth, and bringing more orders north of the border, thus, showing the Scottish people, that they’re wanted, by the UK and they should vote no, in the referendum.
     
    I find this deceitful, and above all I have huge sympathy for the workforce at Portsmouth, not to mention, many others who will lose their jobs, possibly due to the massive overspend on the aircraft carriers, attributed to an incompetent Westminster Government.

  63. Barontorc
    Ignored
    says:

    @papadocx – Greenock’s demise would have absolutely nothing to do with your continuous return of Labour dumplings would it?
     
    Just watching Duncan McNeil slapping his desk and grinning like an imbecile at Holyrood and your latest ‘dynamic’ MP troughing away at it in Westminster – don’t even know the chancer’s name he’s got such a dismal profile – is enough to put you off your porridge.
     
    You tail o’ the bank guys seriously need to take a long hard look at yourselves, alongside those other booming great Labour dominated places in Scotland –  Dunfermline (Rosyth), Falkirk, Glasgow, etc,etc., FFS!!!

  64. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    George Kerevan on politics Scotland
    Suggesting that a YES or NO vote is irrelevant in this context as the Portsmouth Yard cant build ships and that the Clyde will get the orders in any event.  In other words the UK government have burnt their bridges already.
     
    He may be correct but I would not put my mortgage on it even though it is a very small one.
     
    Patrick Harvie is possibly the only one that sees the thing in the round by extolling the need to diversify into other types of ships and engineering as the way forward.

  65. dandydowser
    Ignored
    says:

    Whit’s with all the pretentiousness by Her Britannic Majesty’s Royal Navy – “we can’t have a warship made by Johnny Foreigner.”

    If I have this correct the army can have handguns made in Belgium, the US, Germany or Austria (Brownings, Sauers or Glocks), rifles made in Canada, the US or Germany (Colt Canada, LMT or Heckler and Koch who also supply most if not all UK police armed response units).  To name but a few of the essential equipment they buy from foreign countries.

    The RAF are busy rolling out their super-duper new main strike fighter the Typhoon or to give it the full name Eurofighter Typhoon, who have a parent company for the joint agreement between French/Dutch based EADS, Italian based Alenia Aermacchi plus BAE called, wait for it, Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug Gmbh.  Bet they keep that pretty quiet on Battle of Britain day!

    So the sodjers go into wars equipped by the Americans, Canadians, Belgians, Austrians and Germans, the flyboys go into them piloting their Dutch/French/German/Italian/British aircraft but the RN have to sail on British only warships?

    (Though bear in mind when the Navy do turn up they’ll only be able to use British made torpedoes available on some submarines and guns on the frigates as we wouldn’t want them to use their beastly American made Tomahawk or Harpoon missiles, French/Italian Aster missiles or rely on their German/Swiss made Oerlikon guns to prevent missile attacks on their lovely British-built boats!) 

    What a load of hypocritical guff is being spouted by the Unionists on this.  Mark my words the RN will buy a foreign built warship within the next decade or two, whether Scotland votes yes next year or not.   Pan-European co-operation is the way defence is going – that’s when it’s not a case of “off to North America with a shopping list”!

  66. Alex Wright
    Ignored
    says:

    “Seeing no ships,” is an extremely apt headline Rev. According to  David Cameron today in the Commons  “If Scotland was Independent, they wouldn’t have any ships at all,” was the latest horror story.

    Shit, the tankers I watch from my window going up and down the Forth , exporting all that oil would disappear.

    I suppose  the victory cruise me and the wife were planning after the referendum will have to be shelved as well. Bummer.

    Joking aside, another bad day for the shipyards. Hopefully, when Independence is achieved, shipbuilding along with other lost trades which we were renowned for, can be revived, to create meaningful employment to our young, the lifeblood of our country.

  67. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    @barontorq
    The demise of Greenock and the rest of Scotland was achieved under both labour and Tory governments in Westminster. I am in my late 60’s and have voted SNP since my mid 20’s. Labour has never done anything positive for Greenock, they didn’t have to. The Tories did nothing, no point, no votes there. “I,m just nobodies child”

  68. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Norway build 100 ships in 2012

  69. Midgehunter
    Ignored
    says:

    Regarding shipbuilding in high-wage Europe. Not only Norway but Sweden, Finnland, France and Germany seem to be much better in sales aquisition for orders of ships.
    Military or commercial these nations do both.
    Does BAe only want the Clyde yards for the military and by doing so make them totally dependent on MOD contracts?
     
    The Meyer Yard in Papenburg, north Germany, is about 50 miles inland up a little river called the Ems.
    They build diverse ships including cruise liners which are as big as aircraft carriers …!
    To get the liners down to the sea they have close the dam/weir at the estuary so the dammed-up water is just deep enough to get them down the river.
    The website is in English:
    http://www.meyerwerft.de/en/meyerwerft_de/index.jsp
    The Clyde has the skills and the capacity to do these things, we don’t need to wait for independence … do we?

  70. Barontorc
    Ignored
    says:

    @papadocx – I ken the feeling buddy – same issues – change is coming – but what the hell keeps these normally sensible people giving their X to Labour torags?

  71. Barontorc
    Ignored
    says:

    Why are we being constricted into ‘building warships’ only? Scotland is at the forefront of  offshore  energy generation in the world – let’s pour our money into that.

  72. archie mcneill
    Ignored
    says:

    mr mcternan civil opinion and Scottish opinion says you could very well be misinformed, do you think this may be the excuse you need

  73. Kenny Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “I love the obsession with my back catalogue .”
     
    Is he John Lennon ?

  74. Kenny Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m pretty sure Michael McKeown is a paid stooge at the Herald or its a persona they use when they want website hits on comments pages. No one person can be so continually obtuse.
     
    The OBE character is like a robot. Not sure why people engage him at all.

  75. Anne (@annewitha_e)
    Ignored
    says:

    As I understand, there is no UK constitution to be ‘reserved’ at all.  

  76. Charlie McFarley
    Ignored
    says:

    Watching the film In The Loop last night, I was pondering whether the foul-mouthed Scottish spin doctor character Jamie MacDonald was conceivably based, ever so slightly, on a certain spin doctor whose grasp of memory and reality could best be described as somewhat challenged.

    Of course, that could be as fanciful as imagining that the equally foul-mouthed propagandist character Malcolm Tucker draws substantially on a notorious labour apparatchik and truth-masseur.

    No, I’m probably being delusional. Truth is never stranger than fiction. I’m very clear about this…. and you can quote me on that – but I reserve the right to contradict myself at any time in the future. I also reserve the right to disagree with (but not to offer apology or explanation for) the opinions which I may happen to express, now and for all time. Amen.

    It is distressing and really dispiriting to observe the antics and listen to the self-serving BS of so many renegade Scots. Are they all injected with a virulent strain of botchulism when they sign on for their gravy train and receive their pieces of silver?



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