The dead walk again
The Scotsman usually makes at least a token effort at concealing its bias a little bit better than this. We’re not sure what’s happened this morning.
What we mean is that normally when you want to find out one of the paper’s headlines is a massive misrepresentation of the truth, you might not have to dig far, but it’s usually slightly deeper than the story’s own strapline.
The survey of young people the front-page lead story refers to has many interesting facets – most notably the huge proportion, around two thirds, who are open to changing their minds – but the remarkable one for media/politics nerds like ourselves is the revival of one of the most shameful episodes in the nation’s political history.
The infamous “40% rule” of the 1979 devolution referendum happened before any of the respondents in the poll were born. Indeed, it’s possible that even their parents hadn’t yet entered the world when Labour MP George Cunningham sabotaged the democratic wishes of the Scottish people with a clause which ensured that the dead, and those who simply didn’t vote, were effectively counted on the “No” side.
But whichever way you interpret the Scotsman’s spin on the poll numbers, the same principle is at play. The actual percentage of “young Scots” who’ve “snubbed independence” is 60%. With only around 20% pledging themselves firmly to Yes at this point according to the survey, with around the same number undecided, you might think a margin of 40% wouldn’t need exaggerating.
Yet the paper goes ahead anyway, counting 100% of the Don’t Knows in the No camp for the sake of a cheap, sensationalist embarrassment of a headline that’ll damage its journalistic credibility more than it’ll ever improve its sales.
(By the exact same rationale, we could perfectly legitimately run a piece with the headline “99.5% OF SCOTS SNUB THE SCOTSMAN”, because only 0.5% of the country’s population actively supports it by buying a copy.)
If you want the details of the story, here’s a link to the Herald version. We’d link you to the Scotsman, but the way its sales are going we’re not sure the website will still be there tomorrow.
I know “times are tough”, but I didn’t realise Alistair Darling had taken on a second job as the Scotsman’s sub-editor.
Cunningham
Cunningham, or as I like to call him, Slypig.
What ARE you people talking about?
(etc)
Does it say what the demographic was ? They only appear to quote a 17 year old youth representative from Better Together and I just wondered how they managed to get volunteers to participate. More importantly,whats the technique for getting a teenager to answer their mobile ?
Well regardless its very worrying that school children would vote this way. Is the poll being held in private schools or is this a legitimate poll. Lets hope they can learn the facts and overcome whatever brainwashing they are basing there decisions on. As a frequent user of Twitter I’m extremely dismayed by the extreme ignorance of school children regarding Scottish independence. They seem to think its the intellectual position to choose the UK despite having virtually no concept of how the political structure and economic situation of Scotland is and absolutely no knowledge of how the wider world works in terms of geopolitical and economic issues. The ignorance is staggering , to be fair though most adults are in the same boat
Its the most absurd position you can imagine voting against your own and countries interests and having absolutely no idea what you are doing.
I was eleven in 1979, so didn’t really understand the background to the “40% rule”. I do remember feeling very strongly that this was ‘moving the goalposts after the penalty had been taken’. I have been a supporter of Scottish independence ever since, though these school kids possibly have more of an insight in to what is best for Scotland’s future. BTW, is this the Scotsman coming out in support of 16 year olds voting? I can’t remember what their editorial line was at the time, but I imagine it was something like SNP policy = BAD.
@ Albert Herring & Doug Daniel,
Its the same Cunningham that the labour party have suspended over the NEW cash for questions scandal.
Highlights and video here for those that have not yet seen it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/02/labour-lords-suspended_n_3374396.html
The poll was carried out by phoning an equal number of respondents in the Holyrood regional areas by random dialling. The child was then interviewed after getting the permission of the parent. It may be just wishful thinking, but I am suspicious of the accuracy of this poll. I’m not sure how it’s method could find a representative sample.
By looking at the results tables, you can calculate that the voting intention of the parents were: Yes:19% No:59% DK:25% (Yes vote at least 11% lower than general polling). Also, only 8% of 14 – 17 year olds consider themselves to be Scottish Not British, compared to 31% of the general population. There is no reason why the views of under 18s would be so out of line with the general population.
I remember the moment that the Scotsman showed me its true colours. It must have been August 2005. I was on the London, Glasgow train heading home. Returning from the hugely successful 700th anniversary commemorations of the judicial murder of Sir William Wallace attended by Alex Salmond amongst others. Someone had bought a copy of the Scotsman and it was getting passed around. You could see it wiping the smile off everyone’s face. The article was condescending and belittled the entire event. What did they expect to gain from this, what is the mindset?
Anyway I went out and parted with £1.30 for the Sunday Herald today. First newspaper in years!
I might have mentioned this before but one of my 16 year old daughter’s friends will be voting No because, wait for it, her dad is Irish and her mum is English.
I jesteth ye not.
There’s still time, though, for the girl to do some opening of eyes and ears 🙂
14 to 17 year olds?
Calum Findlay says:
3 June, 2013 at 2:08 am
“There is no reason why the views of under 18s would be so out of line with the general population.”
Can I suggest they are not sufficiently savvy to intemperate a decade or so of imperial adventures abroad (largely glorified by the MSM), an increasingly shrill and irrational ‘pride in patriotism’ trumpeted by the MSM (which has always been eager to conflate England with Britain for as long as I can remember), a royal wedding, the jumbolypics, and a whole host of opportunities which have not been missed to suggest we are ‘better together’. Would I be petty in highlighting the scale of Scotland in comparison to the rUK, on the BBC weather? The establishment knew that the referendum was on the cards as soon as the Scottish Parliament opened for business, and have been steadily ratcheting up the propaganda since then (both direct and subliminal).
Interpret, doh. It is early and spell chucker can be tricky. 🙂
It could all be a ruse to justify the balance of the BBC Question Time edition from Scotland which will feature the young voters. Expect the audience to be 80% pro union as that will be representative. Nice timing eh.
Likewise, first time I have not only bought a newspaper in a long time, but I had to actually go and seek it out.
Business as usual at the Herald this morning.
Last night they had a bland heading for the story in question.
By this morning it had turned into
”
Salmond 2014 poll blow as teenage voters back Union
”
(Courtesy of Magnus, as usual)
Why do they do that? Do they not think that their poll lead is strong enough?
All my contact with young people suggests that this poll is accurate. With few exceptions they haven’t a clue about politics and aren’t interested – they think it doesn’t apply to them. Anyway, the poll doesn’t matter. Voting isn’t cool, awesome or rad, so they won’t be doing it.
I’ve definitely noticed there’s a fair amount of opposition to independence among the children in the schools my cousins attend: for a while, my eldest cousin was the only pro-Indy voter in the class.
But of course, the reason they all vote Union is easy to see: they’re young, impressionable, and very open to peer pressure. My cousin is intelligent and canny, so he tried to debate with them. Turns out, he couldn’t, because the vast majority of the students voting Union are completely and utterly misinformed. Not a single one of them was able to even defend their own statements, let alone challenge my cousins’. It is worth noting, however, that nearly all the teachers at the school – a Catholic school, mind – are pro-Indy. And so the overwhelmingly pro-Union voters at the school are starting to lose ground to pro-Indy voters.
The more facts and accurate statements are disseminated and promoted to them, the more likely they’ll be convinced otherwise. And this preposterous headline just shows you why the nation’s youth is so misinformed.
My two sons, 17 and 15, go to school in Inverness. I don’t shove my views down their throats, and they both support Yes. They have access to at least one teacher who is pro Yes, so that may be a factor. As for demographics, the catchment area is mixed, some affluent areas, some quite poor. Their friends appear to be Yes supporters and they are defintely talking amongst themselves about this subject. I detect a Yes movement among young people who have a healthy social life. Regarding polls, they seem consistently to be out of alignment with my own experience, perhaps due to the methods employed.
Doug Daniel
I don’t think the Scotsman has sub-editors now (cost-cutting) so glaring errors are less likely to be picked up. But in any case the editorial line is clear–hammer the Nats.
The only consolation is that they are preaching to a reducing number of people every day.
My son has just turned 16 and has lived the last 10 years in Belgium. I have to say that even though we have maintained our bond with Scotland through family and cultural events AND he lives with me ranting on about the benefits of an Independent Scotland …..oh and the vote will take place on MY birthday …. When I asked him, if we move back to Scotland what do you think you would vote? He answers that he doesn’t know!
I know our situation it is not really a typical situation but perhaps it highlights that it will be closer to polling day before a lot of voters actually engage in the debate and I’d bet if you asked the same selection how they would vote in the proposed IN/OUT EU referendum you would get a similar result.
Why are they asking 14 year olds?
And where exactly did they do the survey?
Both of my kids are in the 14yrs bracket and both are pretty firmly in the YES camp. Which surprises me really since I don’t tend to talk politics around the kids. Mind you forcing them to wear see you jimmy hats and lion rampant jim jams whilst sleeping under their Stewart tartan duvets and listening to a Corries lullaby may have had something to do with it. 😉
The Scotsman’s deputy editor is Peter MacMahon who is continuing his role as a Labour spin doctor hence the number of Labour has beens who write weekly columns Wilson, Kelly and Gray that are merely anti SNP / independence rants.
They are asking 14 year olds because some of them will be 16 in Sept 2014…
@JLT
They’re asking 14 year olds because some of them will be able to vote in 2014
I found myself in the company of what will be first time voters at the weekend.Views were mixed,but I was quite impressed with their interest in and openness to the debate.I think they liked being asked what they thought about it all.
@Adrian B, 2:04am:
It’s not the same Cunningham: the undemocratic 40% amendment came from George Cunningham, Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury, who isn’t a peer (perhaps surprisingly given his service to the troughers).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cunningham_%28politician%29
The peer currently mired in sleaze is Jack Cunningham, once a senior figure in Blair’s Cabinet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Cunningham,_Baron_Cunningham_of_Felling
Stupid headline, I agree. Still, there is something going on. My 13 year-old came home the other day and said: “I think countries are stupid. I don’t want Scotland to become independent”.
I have to admit that he had a point. Countries ARE stupid. Which is exactly why I am in favour of Scottish independence from one of the stupidest countries on earth, the UK.
He added: “It’s all stupid. Countries, religions. Why can’t people just get on with their lives”.
I agreed with him but pointed out that sooner or later people generally find out that they can’t go through their lives believing in nothing. So, if people are going to end up having to believe in something more than just what takes place in front of their eyes, it is going to be necessary to give them something to believe in.
Scotland is not perfect, never will be, but it’s probably better than the alternatives, at least as far as Scots are concerned. The problem is, people – especially the young – very quickly tire of “debate” and just want everyone to shut up. In such a frame of mind, they will be very easy to persuade that voting for independence is stupid.
I have to say, I think that Salmond’s plan to extend the vote to 16 year olds may have been a tactical mistake. Oh well, we’ll see soon enough.
The major finding of this poll was that the majority of those asked said that they all wanted more information, therefore it is no surprise that two thirds said that they were open to changing their minds. Doubtless the Hootsmon and Herald will conveniently gloss over this finding…
“The major finding of this poll was that the majority of those asked said that they all wanted more information”
Ahhh, the good old “why is nobody spoon-feeding me information about this?” line. No wonder politicians think our heads button up at the back – in most cases, they possibly do.
Having said that, the lad on the Sunday Politics confirmed that social media is where they get most of their information, and a girl in the film said they would get involved in arguments online. Note that she wasn’t being derogative about it – young folk aren’t nearly as scared of seeing heated debate on the internet as Wetnats and the media like to think.
I think they’ve worked out that the vast majority of their readership only glance at the paper on the newsstands to see what the headline is. Attentive Scotsman readers are those who sidle closer to read the strap line.
Incidentally, the media and No campaigners assumed that young folk would vote Yes because they’re immature and are easily swayed by crappy, emotional arguments that have nothing to do with real life.
If we take the poll results at face value, then it looks like they had a point!
Tamson says
Jack Cunningham—according to Wikipedia his father was disgraced by the Poulson scandal.
It’s in the genes!
Hootsmon fiddle de poll
Who do ye think ye are?
Your average 16 and 17 year old has the same potential to fall victim to propaganda as other members of the public. I believe samples like this, on an important constitutional question, would mirror the general population. Any discrepancy of 5% or over I would question.
What is more of the issue here is that polling has become discredited to say the least. In 2011 the SNP were going to get UTTERLY shafted by Labour during the Holyrood elections according to opinion polls 90 days out yet turned around a massive ‘deficit’ into a historic win.
I think opinion polls are so open to abuse that they largely just another tool in the propagandists box.
The point is that two thirds of respondents wanted more information and indicated that they could be persuaded to change their minds before 2014. In other words, at least 30% of the 60% no vote observed is very soft indeed. With 16 months still to go, I find that very encouraging.
The indy polls are all over the place.
The BBC were championing that John ‘Yes, of course, who else do we know that can talk about politics’ Curtice and his 20% or whatever it was social survey one from last summer.
Just a simple search of Scottish Independence on Twitter and you’ll find a lot of “Anyone who wants Independence is a mong” or something similar from usually young women.
I don’t know how we are going to counter this to be honest. I have a friend who’s 30 and he says he won’t vote in the ref, but he doesn’t think we can manage on our own. After 10-15 minutes of not just me, but an older guy who was pro-indy as well giving him information and opinion, he still said ”Nah it won’t work”. Such a closed mind.
Also, are our younger people beginning to feel less Scottish? Team GB was a huge success last year. Our teams are doing so poorly in rugby, football and reguarly get trounced on the park. What optimism do they have about our sports teams, when you go into each game thinking ‘How many are we going to lose by today.’
Although it’s fairly negative. I think it will be a lot closer come the referendum. Just inspires me (after this rant!) to try and win over more undecided/on the fence No voters.
@Seanair
If memory serves me well, the constituencies of Cunninghame North and South have had Brian Wilson and Brian Donohoe as their MPs. It must be in the water too!
It’s always been a myth that young people are more likely to support independence. Their peers, the entirety of the media and not least squadrons of Labour dinosaurs in classrooms are telling them that the normal state of affairs around the world does not apply in Scotland’s case. Add this to the fact that young people are taught virtually nothing about Scottish culture or history beyond having a fun day with a can of irn bru and it’s easy to understand these poll results. Curriculum for Excellence is not doing enough to change this state of affairs either.
Incidentally, I am not having a go at all teachers, but believe me I am very familiar with the corrosive effects of Labour’s adherents in the classroom.
The timing of this announcement is a perfect antidote to the Sunday Herald main article.
I have observed that Monday mornings are usually fairly anti Independence in the press.
Sad bunnies all !
Partly O/T.
Did anyone look at the back page of the Sunday Herald yesterday? Full page advert for RBS, clearly spelled as RBYES. I know it’s just their current advertising push but the implications of the prominent use of the word Yes can’t have been overlooked.
Also, whilst I’m on. Nice to see the big Yes stall out at the Meadows Festival in Edinburgh at the weekend. They were on good form.
Help request: Am I missing something, or did it really cost £180,000 (PDF) to ask some teenagers some questions and bung the responses on a spreadsheet?
Re youngsters feeling less Scottish.
In the event of a No vote, i fear that Scotland will be gone in a couple of generations.
“(By the exact same rationale, we could perfectly legitimately run a piece with the headline “99.5% OF SCOTS SNUB THE SCOTSMAN”, because only 0.5% of the country’s population actively supports it by buying a copy.)”
And the Scotsman, the Herald, and the ‘Scottish’ versions of the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Guardian, Express are ALL totally irrelevant with a combined circulation of only about 200,000, The only dead tree output that matters are the Daily Record and the Scottish Sun and they don’t matter very much with a combined circulation of only around 550,000. It is the TV media that matters most.
The young people I have spoken to about independence are very much undecided, they usually have a preference but are putting off actually engaging in debate and researching information until closer to the date.
I don’t blame them, with school work, which gets taken progressively more serious the later they study at school (i.e. 16 & up), and trying to fit in with their peers it’s not easy for them. Also combine this with the fact that most pupils were not expecting to be able to vote at 16 or 17, why would a child at that age have previously concerned themselves with politics? Obviously politics still affects them but they haven’t been able to do anything about it before now so there hasn’t been any reason for them to take an interest.
It slightly worries me that teachers are open about their political views, I don’t think children should know which way their teacher is voting, with regards to party or indy.
@Training Day – Curriculum for Excellence certainly has it’s flaws but it is a step in the right direction, there is a much better focus on kids learning how to learn rather than just regurgitating information. All teachers are now also encouraged to teach outside their subject area with a large focus on literacy, numeracy and health. The part that really encourages me is critical reading, not just taking things at face value, which is what kids need to understand if they are actually going to inform themselves about this debate.
@ a supporter – For younger people it is twitter, facebook and youtube that really matter, teenagers at that age rarely watch the news and I imagine far less watch political shows.
Next weeks McJunior Question Time will be a struggle…see how long it takes before David Dimbleby smirks at the copious applause for some smarmy wean in a blazer asking “My mummy and Daddy work jolly well hard to send me to private school and a future life in Dentistry…why should I care about some old Drumchapel Benefits Office based Pensioner who didnt plan well during the War or whatever that little skirmish was called”
14 to 17 year olds don’t know their arse from their elbow. I know this because I’ve got two of them sitting near me right now, who a little while earlier when I asked them what direction is North hadn’t a clue. They follow trends. If the general trend at (Referendum -1) is to vote YES, that is what they will do.
If you look at the actual results (http://www.aqmen.ac.uk/sites/default/files/Results_Report_Young_Persons_Survey_May2013_0.pdf) of the poll, there are a few interesting things I notice.
1. Each child was asked 21 questions and each parent 5 questions; yet there are only 17 tables of results. What were those 9 extra questions, and why don’t they show them? (Granted, they may simply have been things like “what is your age?”, so it may be perfectly innocent)
2. Table 7 shows that 26% of those who are “Quite confident” about Scotland’s future in the event of a Yes vote would vote No anyway – that ends up only being 39 No voters, but that suggests there are folk who, despite thinking Scotland would probably fare welll independent, they’ll still vote No anyway. Also, “Very confident” is the lowest of the five choices, with only 57 people saying so, with 94 and 343 saying they are “Very worried” and “Quite worried” respectively. Most noteably from this table, 78.2% of the 170 folk who are “Neither confident or worried” would vote No – so clearly, there’s still a big job to do to convince people that Scotland will succeed on its own. It’s quite significant that there’s no similar question about Scotland’s future in the event of a No vote – that lends itself to the idea that there is no risk in voting No. Do young people understand just how deeply in the shit the UK is?
3. Table 10 shows that of parents who would vote No, only 11.5% of their children would vote against them, and 74.1% would follow their parents in voting No. Conversely, just 50.6% of Yes-voting parents have children who would vote the same way, whereas 30.3% of them have a child who would vote No. And of those parents who are undecided, 48.8% of their children would vote No. So if you’re a No voter, your child is far more likely to go along with whatever you’ve brainwashed them to think than if you’re a Yes voter. With that in mind, it’d be interesting to know if they made sure the child’s parent wasn’t in the room while they were on the phone – you can imagine the likelihood of the child of an “International Socialist” contradicting their dad if he was in the room at the time.
4. Also from table 10 is the most interesting statistic of all. Of the 1018 families asked, just 178 of the parents would vote Yes – 17.5%. Considering this table also shows how obediently children follow their parents’ voting intention (especially No voters), this is clearly going to artificially inflate the No numbers. Taking out Undecided parents, you get Yes/No figures of 23.1% and 76.9% – very much out of step with current polling. You might as well get your local Labour club to round up their kids and ask how they’d vote.
5. Table 14 shows the vast, vast majority of the kids think they’re either “More Scottish than British” or “Equally Scottish and British” – 37% and 49% respectively. Next is “Scottish, not British” at 10% with just 4% saying they’re either “More British than Scottish” or “British, not Scottish” (35 kids in total). Only one of those 35 kids will vote Yes, which highlights what a waste of time it is trying to convince folk who don’t feel Scottish to vote Yes. If they feel purely Scottish, then the likelihood of them voting Yes is 2:1. If they feel a little British, it’s the exact opposite; and if they feel equally Scottish and British, 86.3% will vote No. Is it possible that last year’s Summer of Britishness has had the effect desired by the UK government? Does it help that the union flag has recently become a style icon, being all over bags and clothing etc? Do we perhaps need our creative pro-indy Scots to get a Saltire trend going on next year?
Another point in all of this is that should Scotland vote Yes, you can guarantee with a change within the curriculum to reflect Identity and History, young Scots would soon all be very well educated in areas such as Politics and Social Responsibility.
@KraftyKris
I agree that some aspects of CfE are encouraging, but I’m not sure that in itself it’s going to promote greater critical thinking. It will still require a good teacher to unlock the critical literacy experiences and outcomes. But you’re right, equipping people with the intellectual armoury to be able to cut through gas clouds of opinion is vital.
Also, while some in the profession welcomed the Scottish Government’s ‘Learning about Scotland’ inititaive as it was already part of their practice, others were highly resistant to it (for varying reasons). As a result the initiative appears to have stalled, and it could be argued that much of the material associated with the initiative was in any case simply tartanry and kailyard.
Bizarrely it was a social and communication studies brief for my kids homework which prompted their enthusiasm. They had to pick a side in the upcoming referendum and argue the case. Neither of them had a clue as to the issues involved in either position prior to doing the research for homework. They both knew I took an interest and asked for some addresses. So I pointed them toward both YES and BT home sites, WoS, NNS, Bella, Labour Hame and a few prominent NO and YES camp MPs, MSPs etc.
Didn’t put my tuppence worth in and told them to make up their own minds. Worked like a charm. In their own words ‘BT was a bit depressing and is that what they think of where they live?’. Oh boy, from the mouths of babes. I was so chuffed.
The only thing this poll tells us is that teenagers want more information before they decide. In other news, we see that bears do use the amenities in the woods…
More worryingly, the Scottish Office quote promises teenagers “fact-based evidence”. Call me peculiar but I had hitherto taken it as granted that “evidence” means proving facts. Unless the Scottish Office are suggesting they would peddle “non-fact-based evidence”? Surely some mistake.
Question. When is 80% NOT 80%?
Answer. Well according to the Hootsmon 80% is NOT 80% when it is in fact 60% 😆
a supporter says 14 to 17 year olds don’t know their arse from their elbow. I know this because I’ve got two of them sitting near me right now, who a little while earlier when I asked them what direction is North hadn’t a clue. They follow trends. If the general trend at (Referendum -1) is to vote YES, that is what they will do.
I would completely agree with this. Teenagers have enough to worry about. The majority just getting through the day without being hurt or embarrassed is enough to keep them occupied.
What is worrying is that my impression is that in there simplistic arguments. Independence=braveheart and oil that will run out in a few years. No=the smart choice coz independence is absurd and only a retard would vote for william wallace, its not the 14th century duhhh. I honestly believe that’s about the level of knowledge of these teenagers and what the majority of youngsters believe from my experience on twitter.. Its about time every parent who has a child of voting age tries to educate their children.
Regarding polls; I think you have to suspend belief in the impartiality of polls published in the British press and especially those about voting intentions in Scotland.
The UK state is so tainted with corruption at all levels that I’ve either become a cynic or a realist.
The New Labour project can be likened to the Cosa Nostra, infiltrating society at all levels and they have thoroughly succeeded, whether it be the print media, the BBC, Educational establishments or polling organisations. There is, effectively, a 5th column for the BritNat Establishment, present at all levels of society, hell bent on pushing their agenda.
It’s all to easy to become fixated with Polls, and grasp at figures that can be interpreted depending to which particular outcome you want.
Best to ignore them unless they come from a trusted source and I don’t trust any on Scottish voting intentions published in the BritNat press.
Youngsters are idealistic and through social media feel part of an international community. Better Together scare stories regarding foreigness and all the rest will trouble them.
Having taken the trouble to include them on the vote the Yes campaign will need to tailor a message that chimes with both their idealism on social justice and internationalism and how an independent Scotland will fulfill those roles better than an increasingly reactionary and right wing Britain. If the Yes campaign fails to pitch this right it cannot expect to win their vote. They will die of boredom if people start quoting ancient, ancient history like 79 or McCrone. It will need to be clear concise and very, very positive. This is their future and their opportunity to build a better country. The alternative is not positive and increasingly the neo-conservative lurch of all Westminster parties is disturbingly unhealthy.
PS
The Hootsmon is just shockingly Pravdaish. It isn’t a newspaper it is a religious tract. If you read, and I rarely do these days, the comments along with the articles it actually comes across like a Chick tract (for those unfamilar with Chick tracts they are worth their weight in disturbing comedy gold)
The accuracy and methods used to generate these results are in question because my experience is that the young people I know are more disposed to independence than other groups and there is solid consistent polling evidence which points to this. However if broadly true it throws up some clear conclusions.
1. The important work needed by YES Scotland to get the message over to the young.
2. If Scotland does vote NO next year and the youth vote underpins this then let none of them complain when the deluge happens because it will be ugly, very ugly in a Union State shorn of the need to appease the Jocks. It will take more than the X factor to dull the pain.
3. Maybe Scotland will need as a whole to go through this new post referendum Dark Age before as a people, we find the courage to say – I am not settling for this. I have referred to the “colonial mind” before in other responses and maybe just maybe the psychological damage of the Union on Scots is more profound than we all realise
“If the Yes campaign fails to pitch this right it cannot expect to win their vote. They will die of boredom if people start quoting ancient, ancient history like 79 or McCrone. It will need to be clear concise and very, very positive. This is their future and their opportunity to build a better country.”
Indeed. I know some folk have had success turning people into Yes voters by enlightening them to the misdeeds of the 1970s, but I suspect the majority of the people we need to convert see it (wrongly) as nothing more than grievance politics – an idea exploited by the No camp. It’s precisely why YesScotland is about making people feel hopeful about the future, rather than angry about the past.
The way someone at the inaugural YesAberdeen meeting went on about it, I felt a bit worried that there may be a substantial number of Yes supporters who don’t quite realise this, however. We have to face facts I think – as outrageous as it was what Labour did to suppress Scotland in the 70s, most people simply see it as being something in the past that can’t be changed now. We can, however, change our future…
What did we expect?
These kids know nothing of our past other than what’s fed to them in School. None of them have seen real hardship.
They have been brought up in a boom period of foreign holidays, mobile phones, games consoles and pretty much spoon fed everything their hearts desire.
Why would they vote against what they perceive as good?
Salmond made a mistake on this. If the vote goes to the wire with a narrow No vote then this will be the undoing of independence and the beginning of the end of Scotland as a nation.
Melodramatic maybe but it’s my personal opinion.
I like anybody else get down with negative polls.
However, I chide myself for my stupidity……until the day of the referendum there will be no polls published with support for Independence being above 40% in any of our London based media outlets……it is to do with having a negative psychology on the populace.(The why bother voting we are beat already psychology)
The fact remains that we are going to need a bit of James McFadden magic nearer the time which shifts momentum towards a YES. If we just roll on the way we are going then a majority NO vote will happen. Can you imagine Mr OBE in the Herald being right???? This is the future of our country that we are fighting for!!!!Whether it takes some identifiable staunch unionist to switch over or some event that brings our fellow Scots out of the mist…..we will need something!! Please….NOT the white paper!! The general working Scot will not be reading this paper and we all know that they will get their info from the MSM and BBC…….so does anyone think any positive spin will be put on it???
This is scary scary stuff but I am hoping a bit of magic from someone like Faddy can stick it in the top corner and myself and my kids can have a future in my own country or if we have to head to pastures new.
A lack of awareness is part of the problem, politics and economics are not taught in school, well maybe later if they choose the subjects. So much innane rubbish is fed to kids in school that they have no room left for intelligent thinking and/or debate. Their heads are full as has been pointed out, with facebook, getting through the day, keeping friends and looking good. My cousin told me a year or so ago, that her teenage daughter said it was trendy among her aquaintances, to at least appear thick, ie not have any intelligence. I am sure most young people are not like that, I hope, but engaging them in decent debate and making a video of it would be a start, they all watch films on youtube and vimeo etc…it doesn’t have to be boring, snippets of info. Look at advertising, it gets them buying into all sorts of ideas about what increases their status among peers etc.
I post a lot on facebook, pro- Independence, as my sons both have young friends who are my ‘friends’ on facebook!
“we will need something!! Please….NOT the white paper!! The general working Scot will not be reading this paper and we all know that they will get their info from the MSM and BBC…….so does anyone think any positive spin will be put on it???”
Aye, but let’s take people’s word for it that they want more information before they decide for certain. It’s going to be debates on TV, conversations with friends/colleagues and canvassers at the door that will give people this information, and that’s all going to come from the white paper.
That’s the genius of the approach being taken. The longer people wait for “answers”, the more keen they are to get them. So rather than splurting everything out at the start of the campaign, it’ll come out at a point of critical mass. A lot of people still aren’t even thinking about the referendum, but give them another few months, and they will. JUst in time for the white paper to come out, and for Yes people to put all their effort into making sure it DOESN’T just get brushed aside by the media.
@Bigheed
Pastures new….. That’s an option I suppose. I’m a wee bit long in the tooth and poor as a church mouse though, so pastures new won’t be an option for me. Nope, should the unthinkable happen next year, many in the same boat as myself will just have to soldier on and get ready for round two. Of course the political, economic and social carnage wrought by Westminster governance in any intervening period will be awful to behold, but getting the right result in the end is what counts.
“… that lends itself to the idea that there is no risk in voting No. Do young people understand just how deeply in the shit the UK is?”
Do any of the complacent NO voters? The trouble is everything on the face of it looks no different than it did 5 years ago. The YES campaign really needs to hammer home the risks of the status quo.
Doug above mentions the risks of a No vote. Our media are not interested in promoting a level of debate above facile caricature, so there will be zero discussion of the consequences of a no vote – unless Yes Scotland push those, and the Yes campaign reps that I have questioned about this have unanimously shied away from the approach of spelling out the consequences of No. The implication, I think, is that it’s ‘too negative’.
Really? Is it negative to point out that Westminster will rightly say, post a No vote, that you don’t want to be an independent country, so why do you want to manage education and health? Or anything else? Why not leave everything to Westminster? A No vote will send London the clearest possible signal that we have neither the will nor the courage to continue a notion of Scotland and Scottishness – and they will be absolutely entitled to pursue its complete removal, since we will have acquiesced in it.
Doug……I hope you prove to be right!!
The funny thing is that more and more people are coming over to me at work and saying I will be voting YES, as I am someone with the ability to reduce NO-bodies into sounding incredibly stupid.
But you have more faith in our fellow Scots than I do. We down here in the epicentre of Unionism will do our bit but we need you guys in the more “cultured” haha areas to get us over the line.
Two thirds 66%, said they were wanting more information, so if, at the time of the phone call you ask them ” Should Scotland Be An Independent County?, ” and they answer No, then what they are saying is, at this moment in time Scotland shouldn’t be independent. So once these pupils have heard more positive information regarding independence, Iam 100% sure that they will turn a negative vote round to a Yes vote.
Long way to go.Keep the powder dry.
a supporter
It is something that really needs to brought to the fore. There is no status quo. The UK is in a spiral of debt and austerity. We are in uncharted territory.
Balls’ speech today saying that their spending plans will largely mirror the Coalition because there is no alternative spell out exactly where we are going with the Union. We are still living on the fat of the good years. The recession has bitten but the leanest times are to come. Osborne’s proposed cuts for the post 2015 term are as bad if not worse than the first five years. A vote No is not a vote for the comfort blanket of the Union it is a vote for the harsh crack of the austerity whip. OK if you are into that sort of thing but less attractive for those who want to build a future for their children.
A Yes vote is not a fanciful option it is an open door to an opportunity to be better.
“… A lot of people still aren’t even thinking about the referendum, but give them another few months, and they will.”
Excepting anoraks most people won’t start thinking about the Referendum until the ‘Official Campaign’ begins 16 weeks (?) before the date. I’m a bit of an anorak but I’ve noticed that my enthusiasm is noticeably waning. I’m just ticking over now because I don’t believe a word the main media produces, it is repetitively negative, the YES campaign is lack lustre and on most sites where I comment I’m just repeating myself. And there are still nearly 500 days to go!
@Training Day
Doug above mentions the risks of a No vote. Our media are not interested in promoting a level of debate above facile caricature, so there will be zero discussion of the consequences of a no vote – unless Yes Scotland push those, and the Yes campaign reps that I have questioned about this have unanimously shied away from the approach of spelling out the consequences of No. The implication, I think, is that it’s ‘too negative’.
Really? Is it negative to point out that Westminster will rightly say, post a No vote, that you don’t want to be an independent country, so why do you want to manage education and health? Or anything else? Why not leave everything to Westminster? A No vote will send London the clearest possible signal that we have neither the will nor the courage to continue a notion of Scotland and Scottishness – and they will be absolutely entitled to pursue its complete removal, since we will have acquiesced in it.
Yes, that is a real fear for me as well. If the Yes campaign do not spell out the dangers of a No vote then we are fucked. I get the impression that many people in Scotland think that there is no risk involved in voting No. They seem not to be aware that a No vote will lead to tuition fees of at least £6,000 a year, the NHS in Scotland will likely be privatised, and we will likely be leaving the EU as well.
The big thing is they want to vote. All this talk about the SNP got it wrong to give them the vote cos they thought they would all vote Yes. Is politics the be all and end all of life? What about doing something because its right? They want to vote, they have the vote; end of story. At 80% intending to vote they are an example to their elders who manage a measily 35-40% vote.
muttley79 says: at 12:34 and quoting “Doug”
“… so there will be zero discussion of the consequences of a no vote – unless Yes Scotland push those, and the Yes campaign reps that I have questioned about this have unanimously shied away from the approach of spelling out the consequences of No. The implication, I think, is that it’s ‘too negative’…”
Tell me that that isn’t true. You mean they have discarded one of our best hole cards as to why Independence is good because they think ‘hammering the status quo is too negative?!?!” Does the YES campaign really want to win?
“there’s no similar question about Scotland’s future in the event of a No vote – that lends itself to the idea that there is no risk in voting No.”
Exactly. It’s not just the young: most people think that a Yes vote entails at minimum some uncertainties, whereas a No vote leaves things trotting along unaltered, bad as that is. This massive asymmetry in perception is the No camp’s biggest trump card. I’m sure that by itself it accounts for the 60/30 split in favour of No, with the rest unsure. The Union isn’t so broken that it needs that much fixing, is the view, consciously or unconsciously held.
Look at the mood of many of the posters here: those certain to vote Yes are not just confident about the opportunities of independence, they are those most aware of the consequences of staying in the Union. By all means supply more answers on what independence will mean, but I suspect that many of those who say they need more information are just making an excuse to avoid thinking – it’s an excuse carefully rehearsed for them every day by the media. Saying that you ‘don’t have enough information’ is indicating that you’re cool, abreast of the debate, and know the main talking point. The Scotsman is nearly right on one point: on the day, don’t know and therefore not voting is almost as useful as voting No.
We need to launch a few fearbombs of our own on what to expect if the Union is allowed to continue. Let’s give them information, really, really scary information – there’s plenty of it around. You’ll be paying for your education. You’ll be paying for your health care. You’ll be getting your dinner from a food bank. You’ll be working for Asda, for nothing. Your granny won’t be a foreigner, she’ll be dead of hypothermia (it was a merciful release, she couldn’t afford her prescription anyway).
80% of young Scots snub independence
It is misleading headlines like this one that have encouraged Alistair Darling to think that he can just turn up at the Tory conference, joining hands with the toxic tories, and face no consequence whatsoever. I think he has made a very big mistake.
@a supporter
I was quoting Training Day. As to your point, I think the Yes campaign do want to win. However, to do that surely you have to argue that a No vote is not risk free, in fact there are massive risks, both economically and socially for Scotland?
@Vronsky, just saw your post. I agree with you.
@ a supporter
Alas, it is my experience. At both the Yes meetings I attended the question of raising the consequences of a No vote was side-stepped – both times by elected representatives.
Muttley at 12:56
“… However, to do that surely you have to argue that a No vote is not risk free, in fact there are massive risks, both economically and socially for Scotland? …”
Of course you do. And not only argue the facts but spell them out in detail. In any political argument between two sides each side must and does point out the negatives of voting for its opponents and the positives of voting for itself and vice versa. If we don’t do that we are giving the NO mob an easy ride.
@a supporter
And not only argue the facts but spell them out in detail. In any political argument between two sides each side must and does point out the negatives of voting for its opponents and the positives of voting for itself and vice versa. If we don’t do that we are giving the NO mob an easy ride.
Yes, I agree. I do not really understand why the Yes campaign are shying away from this. It is the main criticism I have of the Yes campaign.
If the comments of Neil McLennan president of Scottish history teachers are anything to go by as reported in todays Daily Express no wonder kids don’t have enough facts.
This arch unionist is complaining that the Scottish government is politicising the national curriculum by putting too much emphasis on Wallace and Bruce while portraying the British empire in a bad light.
McLennan has written several books in his
Active Learning – Third Level History Course Notes potted biography of Robert the Bruce he claims Bruce may have fought for the English against Wallace and makes no reference to the Declaration of Independence.
Don’t forget folks, just because the official Yes campaign are determined to remain positive and upbeat about everything, that doesn’t mean everyone has to follow suit. The fact that Yes has by far the bigger grassroots support is a big advantage for us. It means we can almost run two campaigns in parallel: an upbeat official campaign alongside an unofficial “the truth about voting No” campaign. The No camp can’t do that, because all they have is BetterTogether’s marshalling of the media, so when they try to mix the two, it just looks daft. Meanwhile, attempts to portray the Yes campaign as being negative can be plausibly denied by YesScotland, while the foot soldiers whisper in people’s ear “you know how you think your pension is safe? Well I bet you thought that about the winter heating allowance – and now look what Labour are saying.”
Actually, I’m changing my mind on my earlier post.
As teenagers are notorious for rebelling against their parents and going along with the Scotsman’s headline; I reckon that 80% of adults will be voting Yes.
We’ve won it already folks 🙂
Every mock referendum in schools I’ve heard of (only heard of 2 or 3) had a large majority for independence????
OTOH Stuart’s survey still shows 0 under 16 reading this site. If they are not getting the truth about things, what can we expect?
If they are not reading this site then they definitely not be reading the drier NNS site.
We need to try to promote this site more (which will seemingly be infinitely more) amongst the younger folk. Or maybe BBC Scotlandshire?
Probably we need a new young folk oriented site that understands today’s youth.
I think I’ll try doing a mock movie poster promoting this site based on some movie genre the kids like (I think) and stick it out on facebook.
Calling Scottish_Skier. Calling Scottish_Skier…!
Anyway, evidence given by the Nae Sayers for teenagers’ voting intentions:
Telephone calling teenagers at home can, in itself, skew any responses: parents around to cause ‘influence’; put on the spot to give instant answers; more likely that teens will stick to what they know and have experienced in life so far while safely at home.
Other points:
Younger teenagers are very likely to be ‘low-information’ regarding all the plus and minus points of Scotland as an independent country.
Younger male teenagers are more interested in football and shagging and other early-surge testosterone-based activities than politics. Female teens also have their hormone-driven issues that they will find more important than politics.
Little-to-no priority given to teaching Scottish history with a Scottish perspective regarding the truth of past events, especially within Scotland, rather than that expressed by the British state, re-enforces the ‘Better Together’ message.
Youths are easily influenced: the constant negative propaganda by members of the British state is effectual on the less well-informed.
Lack of ‘real-life’ experiences while still in the safety of the home bosom does not stir any great demands for change – the status quo is good now – change is the ‘unknown’, and scary.
Politics just isn’t high up on the list of a young teenager – all the ‘real-life’ trials and tribulations of moving into early adulthood are more important.
Online activity is ‘where it’s at’ for teenagers, with Facebook, Twitter and YouTube the more well-known sites used amongst many and it is there that minds are influenced.
What is ‘trending’ online is more likely to be agreed to, rather than something already passé even if it is something that the person may, indeed, have an affinity to.
Teenagers ‘concentration-time’ is declining – think Twitter’s 140-character limit – so time needed to sit down and find out the real truth, especially if it means going through facts and figures, while having to cut through the dense foliage of lies and misinformation from the Vote No Scotland cabal, makes it difficult for anyone to find that Eureka-moment of ‘Yes’ for Scotland.
And etc.
Sod’s Law strikes again. No sooner had I resolved to try to promote this site amongst young folk when lo and behold along comes a comment, and probably the first ever, to make me reconsider whether teenagers should be encouraged to visit here.
The referendum vote will change everything. Whether the result is a Yes or a no.
Scotland shall be different and there shall be no going back.
I am sure there are lists of those who are active on both sides. They are known and won’t be forgotten…
I behoves us all to think past the vote date and imagine both futures.
@Chic McGregor
Are you talking about the post I sent at 1.42 pm? If so, would you care to explain?
Yes. O.K. I grant I may be a bit, or even a lot, old fashioned at 62 but talking about hormones and stuff like that seems inappropriate if we are trying to get 14 and upwards on to the site.
Would also suggest that some of the language used in the past (myself included) be toned down as well, but then I concede I could be way behind the times on this.
Certainly the language you hear schoolkids using even in malls and such, these days is shocking.
Sorry if I come over as an old fogey but that is probably cause I are one.
Calling Scottish_Skier. Calling Scottish_Skier…!
See Doug D’s earlier post. I concur.
I’ll add in it was a landline survey too. No the best way to reach young uns.
I wouldn’t pay it much attention considering we are also dealing with a very small fraction of the population, many of whom won’t even bother voting.
My own feeling is that – while a standard policy of the SNP as a liberal party – the fact that they went down the 16/17 year old route was to get BT to focus loads of attention on this group. Which is exactly what they are doing with their youth reps etc; jeez they even have e.g. wee Jim fae Argyll telling us how he’ll cry if the UK ends each week as the mainstay of their campaign videos FFS.
Polls show this group is the most volatile. Some show for, some against. I doubt they’ll make any difference at all. However, if BT devotes a lot of resources to a wild goose chase more power to them.
Aye Chic, as someone who was a teenager when the internet first came to prominence, I think it’s safe to say that swearing etc is not likely to turn off anyone who’s going to be old enough to vote in 2014!
If anything, we’re more likely to be TOO tame…
I believe this referendum is all about the kids, the next generation. For me its about trying to pass on something in better shape than when we inherited it. I can’t think of a better gift to give our youth, than a country and a future full of possibilities. The real prize is already won, self determination. A precedent has been set on the right of Scots to determine their own future. What we require now is the seal of approval from the Scots electorate themselves – self governance. Any teens visiting this site should be aware of two things a. What they will gain from independence and b. What they will lose should we remain in the union.
What they will gain is choice and a future to mold that is in their hands. They will have a country and society to build as they see fit.
What they will lose should we remain in the union? All they have to do is take a look around. Poverty, austerity, elitism, years of crushing debt, governmental corruption and a system of governance which limits their aspirations and stifles their talents and abilities through social pigeonholing. From their own very personal POV how many parents in Scotland can afford the tuition fees to send them to further education? I know I couldn’t. Without the current entitlements available in Scotland, my kids further education stops in high school.
So what’s it to be? A future in your own hands or same old same old? Do you have what it takes to win and build your own future? S’up to you.
See Severin has run a piece on this. Little or nothing for ages but the moment a Better Together rallying point comes along and Severin is in there with his usual The results are a blow to Alex Salmond. He claims impartiality but he is as obvious as an obvious thing 🙂
Chic- In general Kids are very good at spotting language that bullshits them. Telling it like it is to them without being patronising is the best approach. In terms of blinding and effing they’ve heard it all by the time they are 16. The standard of language here is better than what passes for news, comment and analysis in the MSM. By the way the kids are aware of their hormones and all that stuff from school, mags and music no need to be negative about it being mentioned.
On topic- The standard of the reporting of the hootsmin doesn’t faze me. The first thing that sprung out at me, as well as with the Glasgow Uni polll, is straws… grasping at….
Roll on 2014 🙂
I haven’t caught up with all comments here so apologies if someone has posted this earlier but it seems appropriate. STV tomorrow Tuesday 4/6/2013 at 8 p.m. Part one of a three part series by Iain Macwhirter “Road to Referendum” I have set my digibox to record.
Doug Daniel says:
3 June, 2013 at 2:12 pm
“Aye Chic, as someone who was a teenager when the internet first came to prominence, I think it’s safe to say that swearing etc is not likely to turn off anyone who’s going to be old enough to vote in 2014!
If anything, we’re more likely to be TOO tame…”
Well I’m clearly even more out of touch than even I suspected. My kids are in their 30s now so when they were teenagers it hadn’t really got going either. I guess the social networking has greatly accelerated the ‘growing up’ process. When I was 14 I was still reading comics and some boys of that age were still in short trousers.
You may well be right, and such things are what modern youth expect. In which case I owe Dal Riata an apology. In truth Dal Riata I probably would not even have noticed the testosterone stuff if I hadn’t just that minute convinced myself that the thing to do was try to encourage 14 and upwards to visit the site. Please forgive an obviously out of touch auld yin.
It slightly worries me that teachers are open about their political views, I don’t think children should know which way their teacher is voting, with regards to party or indy.
I should point out here that the only reason I know most of the teachers are pro-Indy is because of personal conversations: it wasn’t as if they were going all Miss Jean Brodie on their students.
Regarding the Negative vs Positive stuff: how about if we use negative stuff to lead into a positive point? Example:
If we stay in the UK, tuition fees of up to £6,000 will be put in place. If we become independent, our education would remain free.
If we stay in the UK, we may have only three free visits to our GP before having to pay for services. If we become independent, our NHS would remain free.
If we stay in the UK, all our tax revenue goes to Westminster, a substantial portion of which is not spent on Scotland. If we become independent, the Scottish parliament would have full control over our taxes, and all would be spent on Scotland.
@Chic McGregor
Ach, nae worries, Chic! Differences of opinion are good and healthy and I understand your concerns.
I was merely trying to point out some truisms of life as a teenager from the age of fourteen in present-day Scotland. I was not being critical of those youths, just relating some of the issues that are ongoing in their lives. At that early age, the impact of hormones on the body is strong and the urges and, sometimes, the confusions that result from that are usually far more important to the individual concerned than politics.
You’re right about trying to get as many of those who will be eligible to vote to come to sites such as this for another view of the ‘truth’ apart from that which is nothing more than Vote No propaganda by the British state. It’s going to be a tough fight. A loss, ie a ‘No’ result, would be a catastrophe for Scotland.
Negative vs Positive – It isnt being negative to point out something doesnt work…
The problem with positivity
@Taranaich
“If we stay in the UK, tuition fees of up to £6,000 will be put in place. If we become independent, our education would remain free.”
I suggested at the time (about 3 or 4 years ago) that what they should do is charge everyone the fees, but then give bursaries to students who normally reside in Scotland. In the same way that LGAs used to grant bursaries. Would that not avoid a lot of the flack?
BTW not sure, but I think it is up to £9000.
@Dal Riata
“@Chic McGregor
Ach, nae worries, Chic! Differences of opinion are good and healthy and I understand your concerns.
I was merely trying to point out some truisms of life as a teenager from the age of fourteen in present-day Scotland. I was not being critical of those youths, just relating some of the issues that are ongoing in their lives. At that early age, the impact of hormones on the body is strong and the urges and, sometimes, the confusions that result from that are usually far more important to the individual concerned than politics.
You’re right about trying to get as many of those who will be eligible to vote to come to sites such as this for another view of the ‘truth’ apart from that which is nothing more than Vote No propaganda by the British state. It’s going to be a tough fight. A loss, ie a ‘No’ result, would be a catastrophe for Scotland.”
We are the products of our age I guess. I was being a silly old fart. Sitting here just now I recalled the day I first went to secondary school in Perth. When I went home I asked my parents the meaning of a word that was written on my desk, I had not wanted to show my ignorance to my new classmates. The word was ‘shag’. They went ballistic, threatened to get me removed from the school, took ages to calm down. Still wouldn’t tell me what it meant (have since found out 😉 ). What I did was probably even worse in new money. Never a good experience to recognise you have become your parents.
While clearly, not the person to judge what might attract that age group to this group, I will still do a spoof movie poster as once I’ve thought of something it niggles until I do it.
If we want the teen vote, just get someone they want to have sex with to endorse yes, that should do the trick.
Privatisation of these services is just the beginning of what awaits us if there’s a NO vote, all these plans will be completed before 2020. This is not progress, it’s a journey back into the dark ages. No enlightenment here folks …
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/24/fire-brigades-protest-privatisation-999-calls
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-privatisation-how-private-firms-1918235
http://www.unison.org.uk/stopPolicePrivatisation/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/21/royal-mail-privatisation-vince-cable_n_3311230.html
http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/acute-care/blood-service-privatisation-criticised-in-commons/5027242.article
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/privatised-fire-and-rescue-services-secret-1593277
http://www.legalweek.com/legal-week/news/2271528/privatisation-of-courts-would-damage-londons-status-as-global-disputes-centre-warn-lawyers
I was against independence myself at that age. Hell, I even intended to vote against the re-establishment of the Parliament in 1997, until a wise Art teacher told me not to be so bloody stupid. I wasn’t really all that stupid either, at the time, and knew the history, etc. It’s just that Britain’s propaganda about itself, it’s appearance of being eterna and natural and good, can be very beguiling if you don’t already know better from experience.
The fact is that young progressive type folk can be very prone to the “internationalist” rhetoric that Labour and other “British socialists” spin, and they don’t recognise it as the self-serving rubbish that it is, designed simply to perpetuate an unfair and imperial political power structure.
The UK version of international socialism extends to the borders of the UK and no further. So if they think countries are stupid, they should help to get rid of one of the most stupid, parochial, inward-looking, supremacist, nationalistic ones extant. Get it gone. It’s bad for ye.
A few strategic reminders of the UK’s inherent militarism and inequality, as well as it’s fiscal ineptitude and failure to provide for it’s people (in comparison to it’s closest peers in northern europe), will help some of the youngsters to gain a clearer view, but we are up against the most powerful enemy in the world – inertia.
OT (but worth mentioning).
A Herald article suggesting a British Football Association and the end of the Scottish national team if Scots vote No next year.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/british-fa-could-be-the-saviour-of-scottish-football.21221907
By the way, I also agree with Vronsky`s 12:43pm post. Absolutely.
It’s once the taxman starts going through your pockets each month that politics suddenly seems more important.
If you are lucky enough to have a job that is.
Och high school – the good old days. How easy life was.
Anyhow, saltires everywhere and a Scots team at the commonwealth games should sort the youth vote.
“Anyhow, saltires everywhere and a Scots team at the commonwealth games should sort the youth vote.”
Exactly! And the British establishment know that, hence the determination to have a celebration of the start of the most gruesome and bloody war the world has ever seen in between the Scottish summer of sport and the referendum.
Training Day, that wasn’t my experience of either Yes meetings or the ambassador training.
It is still very much a positive campaign to highlight the possible negative consequences of a No vote and highlight the positive alternative to such consequences by voting Yes.
I agree we can’t allow the No campaign to fool people into thinking that everything will be rosie in the garden of the uk after a No vote.
It’s not weighted so largely meaningless.
http://www.aqmen.ac.uk/sites/default/files/AQMeN_Young_People_Survey_Questionnaire_0.pdf
Check what they asked the parents….
Just what level of education they had. No weighting by age (important as did they have the kid at 16 or at 30 for example), social class, household tenure, work type, public or private sector, employed/unemployed etc.
The only way to get a reliable result here would be to have an accurate demographic profile of parents in Scotland with kids of that age. Then you’d need to sample kids based on matching this.
Would explain the oddities of the survey results.
I think we certainly do need to up the game and agree with Vronsky`s 12:43pm post.
Winter 2013 – we need to start nailing home these points.
Take a look at the BT facebook page. Gloat after gloat and awful lot of not so subtle ”Herr/President Salmond” type quotes. Yet if the Yes team ever said anything a fraction as outrageous as that then it would no doubt be all over the MSM .eg Hoy’s ”vile” tweets – of ‘You soft sod’.
Even if this poll is correct (which the yes vote could be, although there are a few dodgy figures in the results tables), this age group are such a small part of the electorate that it is unlikely they could swing it either way. Especially since most aren’t interested enough to vote anyway (as a 17 year old I know this from experience).
Not all 14 year old’s will be allowed to vote.
My stepdaughter is 14, and she will miss out.
Just ask the dopey little pricks and fanny brains if they would prefer to pay £9,000 a year for their University education or whether they would prefer to continue getting it for free as the SNP goverment has arranged.
Because that’s the choice facing you, numbnuts.
All Opinion Polls must come with a health warning, especially for the mental health. Particularly polls that are not secret/private samples of opinion as was in this case. More Brit Nat dirty tricks. A dirty trick or two a day is thier motto. I have come to the conclusion that only the brain dead now buy the Northern Telegraph.
Seems to me the most obvious question is how the phone numbers were selected by the pollsters.
They say they used ‘random digital dialling’ (RDD). However, does that mean that a computer actually just generated potential phone numbers ?
If so, then I would presume that many numbers don’t actually exist. Can we believe it is truly 100% random ?
But then the pollsters say that they selected and even area distribution within the country, so at least area codes must have been selected by them.
Or is there a database that the computer uses to choose numbers ? Again, what is that database ? – Is it local phone directories ? Is it people that have been surveyed before that have signed up to another polling company ? Is it the Better Together phone book ? (After all, we all know how they love collecting mobile phone numbers and data illegally)
Until we start asking for complete clarity on any ‘announcements/polls/opinions’ etc, then I’m not believing a single word. These pollsters just tell us they used ‘RDD’ and expect us to accept that as accurate without even offering an explanation of precisely how random this method is.
Following further developments on this poll, I have added a wee article myself, over on my auldacquaintance blog.
Have we got info on who was surveyed? Holyrood area? Holyrood School? Reliable polls normally give their polling information. if someone’s answered this please post again 😉
Cheers
Charlie
In case it hasn’t been mentioned yet, for all those who are bemoaning the yes campaign’s lack of information about the risks of voting no, may I remind you of the SNP’s “two futures” ppb? That short film did exactly what you’ve been asking for; it showed what life would be like after a NO, as well as what we could have after a YES.
Stop being so despondent.
Just read NNS’s piece – they gave the pollsters some questions, got answers, and the plot thickens.
Here’s another demographic the pollsters might want to target – what about pensioners who are staying with their children? You know, the granny living in the spare bedroom, venturing out occasionally for a bit of toast or a visit to the lavvy. But in order to get to granny you have to speak to the householder (can’t trust those pesky auld yins with the phone, they’ll be on it day and night calling their pals or trying to order pizzas) – as and when you’ve found out how the householder intends to vote you then ask to speak to granny, and she is brought to the phone…
Would such a scenario be greatly different to what’s been done?
(PS I’m not having a go at live-in grandparents. I know they’re not all senile, and don’t all feel they’re under permanent threat of banishment, but… you get the drift.)