Wings Over Scotland

I know “times are tough”, but I didn’t realise Alistair Darling had taken on a second job as the Scotsman’s sub-editor.

Cunningham, or as I like to call him, Slypig.

Does it say what the demographic was  ? They only appear to quote a 17 year old youth representative from Better Together and I just wondered how they managed to get volunteers to participate. More importantly,whats the technique for getting a teenager to answer their mobile ? 

I was eleven in 1979, so didn’t really understand the background to the “40% rule”. I do remember feeling very strongly that this was ‘moving the goalposts after the penalty had been taken’. I have been a supporter of Scottish independence ever since, though these school kids possibly have more of an insight in to what is best for Scotland’s future. BTW, is this the Scotsman coming out in support of 16 year olds voting? I can’t remember what their editorial line was at the time, but I imagine it was something like SNP policy = BAD.

The poll was carried out by phoning an equal number of respondents in the Holyrood regional areas by random dialling. The child was then interviewed after getting the permission of the parent. It may be just wishful thinking, but I am suspicious of the accuracy of this poll. I’m not sure how it’s method could find a representative sample.

By looking at the results tables, you can calculate that the voting intention of the parents were: Yes:19% No:59% DK:25% (Yes vote at least 11% lower than general polling). Also, only 8% of 14 – 17 year olds consider themselves to be Scottish Not British, compared to 31% of the general population. There is no reason why the views of under 18s would be so out of line with the general population.

I might have mentioned this before but one of my 16 year old daughter’s friends will be voting No because, wait for it, her dad is Irish and her mum is English.
 
I jesteth ye not.
 
There’s still time, though, for the girl to do some opening of eyes and ears 🙂
 
 

Calum Findlay says:
3 June, 2013 at 2:08 am

 
“There is no reason why the views of under 18s would be so out of line with the general population.”
 
Can I suggest they are not sufficiently savvy to intemperate a decade or so of imperial adventures abroad (largely glorified by the MSM), an increasingly shrill and irrational ‘pride in patriotism’ trumpeted by the MSM (which has always been eager to conflate England with Britain for as long as I can remember), a royal wedding, the jumbolypics, and a whole host of opportunities which have not been missed to suggest we are ‘better together’. Would I be petty in highlighting the scale of Scotland in comparison to the rUK, on the BBC weather? The establishment knew that the referendum was on the cards as soon as the Scottish Parliament opened for business, and have been steadily ratcheting up the propaganda since then (both direct and subliminal).

It could all be a ruse to justify the balance of the  BBC Question Time edition from Scotland which will feature the young voters. Expect the audience to be 80% pro union as that will be representative. Nice timing eh.

Business as usual at the Herald this morning.
 
Last night they had a bland heading for the story in question.
 
By this morning it had turned into
 
”
Salmond 2014 poll blow as teenage voters back Union
”
(Courtesy of Magnus, as usual)
Why do they do that? Do they not think that their poll lead is strong enough?

I’ve definitely noticed there’s a fair amount of opposition to independence among the children in the schools my cousins attend: for a while, my eldest cousin was the only pro-Indy voter in the class.
 
But of course, the reason they all vote Union is easy to see: they’re young, impressionable, and very open to peer pressure. My cousin is intelligent and canny, so he tried to debate with them. Turns out, he couldn’t, because the vast majority of the students voting Union are completely and utterly misinformed. Not a single one of them was able to even defend their own statements, let alone challenge my cousins’. It is worth noting, however, that nearly all the teachers at the school – a Catholic school, mind – are pro-Indy. And so the overwhelmingly pro-Union voters at the school are starting to lose ground to pro-Indy voters.
 
The more facts and accurate statements are disseminated and promoted to them, the more likely they’ll be convinced otherwise. And this preposterous headline just shows you why the nation’s youth is so misinformed.

Doug Daniel
I don’t think the Scotsman has sub-editors now (cost-cutting) so glaring errors are less likely to be picked up. But in any case the editorial line is clear–hammer the Nats.
The only consolation is that they are preaching to a reducing number of people every day.

Why are they asking 14 year olds?

And where exactly did they do the survey?

The Scotsman’s deputy editor is Peter MacMahon who is continuing his role as a Labour spin doctor hence the number of Labour has beens who write weekly columns   Wilson, Kelly and Gray that are merely anti SNP / independence rants.

@JLT
They’re asking 14 year olds because some of them will be able to vote in 2014

@Adrian B, 2:04am:
 
It’s not the same Cunningham: the undemocratic 40% amendment came from George Cunningham, Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury, who isn’t a peer (perhaps surprisingly given his service to the troughers).
 
link to en.wikipedia.org
 
The peer currently mired in sleaze is Jack Cunningham, once a senior figure in Blair’s Cabinet.
 
link to en.wikipedia.org

The major finding of this poll was that the majority of those asked said that they all wanted more information, therefore it is no surprise that two thirds said that they were open to changing their minds.  Doubtless the Hootsmon and Herald will conveniently gloss over this finding…

I think they’ve worked out that the vast majority of their readership only glance at the paper on the newsstands to see what the headline is. Attentive Scotsman readers are those who sidle closer to read the strap line. 

Tamson says
Jack Cunningham—according to Wikipedia his father was disgraced by the Poulson scandal.  
It’s in the genes!

Your average 16 and 17 year old has the same potential to fall victim to propaganda as other members of the public.  I believe samples like this, on an important constitutional question, would mirror the general population.  Any discrepancy of 5% or over I would question.
What is more of the issue here is that polling has become discredited to say the least. In 2011 the SNP were going to get UTTERLY shafted by Labour during the Holyrood elections according to opinion polls 90 days out yet turned around a massive ‘deficit’ into a historic win. 
I think opinion polls are so open to abuse that they largely just another tool in the propagandists box.

The indy polls are all over the place.
The BBC were championing that John ‘Yes, of course, who else do we know that can talk about politics’ Curtice and his 20% or whatever it was social survey one from last summer.
Just a simple search of Scottish Independence on Twitter and you’ll find a lot of “Anyone who wants Independence is a mong” or something similar from usually young women.
I don’t know how we are going to counter this to be honest. I have a friend who’s 30 and he says he won’t vote in the ref, but he doesn’t think we can manage on our own. After 10-15 minutes of not just me, but an older guy who was pro-indy as well giving him information and opinion, he still said ”Nah it won’t work”. Such a closed mind.
Also, are our younger people beginning to feel less Scottish? Team GB was a huge success last year. Our teams are doing so poorly in rugby, football and reguarly get trounced on the park. What optimism do they have about our sports teams, when you go into each game thinking ‘How many are we going to lose by today.’
Although it’s fairly negative. I think it will be a lot closer come the referendum. Just inspires me (after this rant!) to try and win over more undecided/on the fence No voters.
 
 
 

It’s always been a myth that young people are more likely to support independence. Their peers, the entirety of the media and not least squadrons of Labour dinosaurs in classrooms are telling them that the normal state of affairs around the world does not apply in Scotland’s case. Add this to the fact that young people are taught virtually nothing about Scottish culture or history beyond having a fun day with a can of irn bru and it’s easy to understand these poll results. Curriculum for Excellence is not doing enough to change this state of affairs either.

Incidentally, I am not having a go at all teachers, but believe me I am very familiar with the corrosive effects of Labour’s adherents in the classroom.

Partly O/T.
 
Did anyone look at the back page of the Sunday Herald yesterday?  Full page advert for RBS, clearly spelled as RBYES.  I know it’s just their current advertising push but the implications of the prominent use of the word Yes can’t have been overlooked.
 
Also, whilst I’m on.  Nice to see the big Yes stall out at the Meadows Festival in Edinburgh at the weekend.  They were on good form.

Re youngsters feeling less Scottish.
In the event of a No vote, i fear that Scotland will be gone in a couple of generations.

The young people I have spoken to about independence are very much undecided, they usually have a preference but are putting off actually engaging in debate and researching information until closer to the date.
 
I don’t blame them, with school work, which gets taken progressively more serious the later they study at school (i.e. 16 & up), and trying to fit in with their peers it’s not easy for them. Also combine this with the fact that most pupils were not expecting to be able to vote at 16 or 17, why would a child at that age have previously concerned themselves with politics? Obviously politics still affects them but they haven’t been able to do anything about it before now so there hasn’t been any reason for them to take an interest.
 
It slightly worries me that teachers are open about their political views, I don’t think children should know which way their teacher is voting, with regards to party or indy.
@Training Day – Curriculum for Excellence certainly has it’s flaws but it is a step in the right direction, there is a much better focus on kids learning how to learn rather than just regurgitating information. All teachers are now also encouraged to teach outside their subject area with a large focus on literacy, numeracy and health. The part that really encourages me is critical reading, not just taking things at face value, which is what kids need to understand if they are actually going to inform themselves about this debate.

Next weeks McJunior Question Time will be a struggle…see how long it takes before David Dimbleby smirks at the copious applause for some smarmy wean in a blazer asking “My mummy and Daddy work jolly well hard to send me to private school and a future life in Dentistry…why should I care about some old Drumchapel Benefits Office based Pensioner who didnt plan well during the War or whatever that little skirmish was called”

If you look at the actual results (link to aqmen.ac.uk) of the poll, there are a few interesting things I notice.
 
1. Each child was asked 21 questions and each parent 5 questions; yet there are only 17 tables of results. What were those 9 extra questions, and why don’t they show them? (Granted, they may simply have been things like “what is your age?”, so it may be perfectly innocent)
 
2. Table 7 shows that 26% of those who are “Quite confident” about Scotland’s future in the event of a Yes vote would vote No anyway – that ends up only being 39 No voters, but that suggests there are folk who, despite thinking Scotland would probably fare welll independent, they’ll still vote No anyway. Also, “Very confident” is the lowest of the five choices, with only 57 people saying so, with 94 and 343 saying they are “Very worried” and “Quite worried” respectively. Most noteably from this table, 78.2% of the 170 folk who are “Neither confident or worried” would vote No – so clearly, there’s still a big job to do to convince people that Scotland will succeed on its own. It’s quite significant that there’s no similar question about Scotland’s future in the event of a No vote – that lends itself to the idea that there is no risk in voting No. Do young people understand just how deeply in the shit the UK is?
 
3. Table 10 shows that of parents who would vote No, only 11.5% of their children would vote against them, and 74.1% would follow their parents in voting No. Conversely, just 50.6% of Yes-voting parents have children who would vote the same way, whereas 30.3% of them have a child who would vote No. And of those parents who are undecided, 48.8% of their children would vote No. So if you’re a No voter, your child is far more likely to go along with whatever you’ve brainwashed them to think than if you’re a Yes voter. With that in mind, it’d be interesting to know if they made sure the child’s parent wasn’t in the room while they were on the phone – you can imagine the likelihood of the child of an “International Socialist” contradicting their dad if he was in the room at the time.
 
4. Also from table 10 is the most interesting statistic of all. Of the 1018 families asked, just 178 of the parents would vote Yes – 17.5%. Considering this table also shows how obediently children follow their parents’ voting intention (especially No voters), this is clearly going to artificially inflate the No numbers. Taking out Undecided parents, you get Yes/No figures of 23.1% and 76.9% – very much out of step with current polling. You might as well get your local Labour club to round up their kids and ask how they’d vote.
 
5. Table 14 shows the vast, vast majority of the kids think they’re either “More Scottish than British” or “Equally Scottish and British” – 37% and 49% respectively. Next is “Scottish, not British” at 10% with just 4% saying they’re either “More British than Scottish” or “British, not Scottish” (35 kids in total). Only one of those 35 kids will vote Yes, which highlights what a waste of time it is trying to convince folk who don’t feel Scottish to vote Yes. If they feel purely Scottish, then the likelihood of them voting Yes is 2:1. If they feel a little British, it’s the exact opposite; and if they feel equally Scottish and British, 86.3% will vote No. Is it possible that last year’s Summer of Britishness has had the effect desired by the UK government? Does it help that the union flag has recently become a style icon, being all over bags and clothing etc? Do we perhaps need our creative pro-indy Scots to get a Saltire trend going on next year?

@KraftyKris
I agree that some aspects of CfE are encouraging, but I’m not sure that in itself it’s going to promote greater critical thinking.  It will still require a good teacher to unlock the critical literacy experiences and outcomes.  But you’re right, equipping people with the intellectual armoury to be able to cut through gas clouds of opinion is vital.

Also, while some in the profession welcomed the Scottish Government’s ‘Learning about Scotland’ inititaive as it was already part of their practice, others were highly resistant to it (for varying reasons).  As a result the initiative appears to have stalled, and it could be argued that much of the material associated with the initiative was in any case simply tartanry and kailyard.

The only thing this poll tells us is that teenagers want more information before they decide. In other news, we see that bears do use the amenities in the woods…
More worryingly, the Scottish Office quote promises teenagers “fact-based evidence”. Call me peculiar but I had hitherto taken it as granted that  “evidence” means proving facts. Unless the Scottish Office are suggesting they would peddle “non-fact-based evidence”? Surely some mistake.

a supporter says 14 to 17 year olds don’t know their arse from their elbow. I know this because I’ve got two of them sitting near me right now, who a little while earlier when I asked them what direction is North hadn’t a clue. They follow trends. If the general trend at (Referendum -1) is to vote YES, that is what they will do.
 
I would completely agree with this. Teenagers have enough to worry about. The majority just getting through the day without being hurt or embarrassed is enough to keep them occupied. 
 
What is worrying is that my impression is that in there simplistic arguments. Independence=braveheart and oil that will run out in a few years. No=the smart choice coz independence is absurd and only a retard would vote for william wallace, its not the 14th century  duhhh.  I honestly believe that’s about the level of knowledge of these teenagers and what the majority of youngsters believe from my experience on twitter.. Its about time every parent who has a child of voting age tries to educate their children. 
 

Youngsters are idealistic and through social media feel part of an international community. Better Together scare stories regarding foreigness and all the rest will trouble them.
 
Having taken the trouble to include them on the vote the Yes campaign will need to tailor a message that chimes with both their idealism on social justice and internationalism and how an independent Scotland will fulfill those roles better than an increasingly reactionary and right wing Britain. If the Yes campaign fails to pitch this right it cannot expect to win their vote. They will die of boredom if people start quoting ancient, ancient history like 79 or McCrone. It will need to be clear concise and very, very positive. This is their future and their opportunity to build a better country. The alternative is not positive and increasingly the neo-conservative lurch of all Westminster parties is disturbingly unhealthy.

The accuracy and methods used to generate these results are in question because my experience is that the young people I know are more disposed to independence than other groups and there is solid consistent polling evidence which points to this. However if broadly true it throws up some clear conclusions.
1. The important work needed by YES Scotland to get the message over to the young.
2. If Scotland does vote NO next year and the youth vote underpins this then let none of them complain when the deluge happens because it will be ugly, very ugly in a Union State shorn of the need to appease the Jocks. It will take more than the X factor to dull the pain.
3. Maybe Scotland will need as a whole to go through this new post referendum Dark Age before as a people, we find the courage to say – I am not settling for this. I have referred to the “colonial mind” before in other responses and maybe just maybe the psychological damage of the Union on Scots is more profound than we all realise

What did we expect?
 
These kids know nothing of our past other than what’s fed to them in School. None of them have seen real hardship.

They have been brought up in a boom period of foreign holidays, mobile phones, games consoles and pretty much spoon fed everything their hearts desire.
Why would they vote against what they perceive as good?
 
Salmond made a mistake on this. If the vote goes to the wire with a narrow No vote then this will be the undoing of independence and the beginning of the end of Scotland as a nation.
 
Melodramatic maybe but it’s my personal opinion.

A lack of awareness is part of the problem, politics and economics are not taught in school, well maybe later if they choose the subjects. So much innane rubbish is fed to kids in school that they have no room left for intelligent thinking and/or debate. Their heads are full as has been pointed out, with facebook, getting through the day, keeping friends and looking good. My cousin told me a year or so ago, that her teenage daughter said it was trendy among her aquaintances, to at least appear thick, ie not have any intelligence. I am sure most young people are not like that, I hope, but engaging them in decent debate and making a video of it would be a start, they all watch films on youtube and vimeo etc…it doesn’t have to be boring, snippets of info. Look at advertising, it gets them buying into all sorts of ideas about what increases their status among peers etc.
I post a lot on facebook, pro- Independence, as my sons both have young friends who are my ‘friends’ on facebook!   

@Bigheed
 
Pastures new….. That’s an option I suppose. I’m a wee bit long in the tooth and poor as a church mouse though, so pastures new won’t be an option for me. Nope, should the unthinkable happen next year, many in the same boat as myself will just have to soldier on and get ready for round two. Of course the political, economic and social carnage wrought by Westminster governance in any intervening period will be awful to behold, but getting the right result in the end is what counts.

Doug above mentions the risks of a No vote.  Our media are not interested in promoting a level of debate above facile caricature, so there will be zero discussion of the consequences of a no vote – unless Yes Scotland push those, and the Yes campaign reps that I have questioned about this have unanimously shied away from the approach of spelling out the consequences of No.  The implication, I think, is that it’s ‘too negative’. 
 
Really?  Is it negative to point out that Westminster will rightly say, post a No vote, that you don’t want to be an independent country, so why do you want to manage education and health?  Or anything else?  Why not leave everything to Westminster?  A No vote will send London the clearest possible signal that we have neither the will nor the courage to continue a notion of Scotland and Scottishness – and they will be absolutely entitled to pursue its complete removal, since we will have acquiesced in it. 

Two thirds 66%, said they were wanting more information, so if, at the time of the phone call you ask them ” Should Scotland Be An Independent County?, ”  and they answer No, then what they are saying is, at this moment in time Scotland shouldn’t be independent. So once these pupils have heard more positive information regarding independence, Iam 100% sure that they will turn a negative vote round to a Yes vote.

a supporter
 
It is something that really needs to brought to the fore. There is no status quo. The UK is in a spiral of debt and austerity. We are in uncharted territory.
 
Balls’ speech today saying that their spending plans will largely mirror the Coalition because there is no alternative spell out exactly where we are going with the Union. We are still living on the fat of the good years. The recession has bitten but the leanest times are to come. Osborne’s proposed cuts for the post 2015 term are as bad if not worse than the first five years. A vote No is not a vote for the comfort blanket of the Union it is a vote for the harsh crack of the austerity whip. OK if you are into that sort of thing but less attractive for those who want to build a future for their children.  
 
A Yes vote is not a fanciful option it is an open door to an opportunity to be better.

@Training Day
 

Doug above mentions the risks of a No vote.  Our media are not interested in promoting a level of debate above facile caricature, so there will be zero discussion of the consequences of a no vote – unless Yes Scotland push those, and the Yes campaign reps that I have questioned about this have unanimously shied away from the approach of spelling out the consequences of No.  The implication, I think, is that it’s ‘too negative’. 
 
Really?  Is it negative to point out that Westminster will rightly say, post a No vote, that you don’t want to be an independent country, so why do you want to manage education and health?  Or anything else?  Why not leave everything to Westminster?  A No vote will send London the clearest possible signal that we have neither the will nor the courage to continue a notion of Scotland and Scottishness – and they will be absolutely entitled to pursue its complete removal, since we will have acquiesced in it. 

 
Yes, that is a real fear for me as well.  If the Yes campaign do not spell out the dangers of a No vote then we are fucked.  I get the impression that many people in Scotland think that there is no risk involved in voting No.  They seem not to be aware that a No vote will lead to tuition fees of at least £6,000 a year, the NHS in Scotland will likely be privatised, and we will likely be leaving the EU as well.   

muttley79 says: at 12:34 and quoting “Doug”
 
“… so there will be zero discussion of the consequences of a no vote – unless Yes Scotland push those, and the Yes campaign reps that I have questioned about this have unanimously shied away from the approach of spelling out the consequences of No.  The implication, I think, is that it’s ‘too negative’…”

 
Tell me that that isn’t true. You mean they have discarded one of our best hole cards as to why Independence is good because they think ‘hammering the status quo is too negative?!?!” Does the YES campaign really want to win?
 

80% of young Scots snub independence
It is misleading headlines like this one that have encouraged Alistair Darling to think that he can just turn up at the Tory conference, joining hands with the toxic tories, and face no consequence whatsoever. I think he has made a very big mistake.

@ a supporter
Alas, it is my experience.  At both the Yes meetings I attended the question of raising the consequences of a No vote was side-stepped – both times by elected representatives. 

@a supporter
 
And not only argue the facts but spell them out in detail. In any political argument between two sides each side must and does point out the negatives of voting for its opponents and the positives of voting for itself and vice versa. If we don’t do that we are giving the NO mob an easy ride.
 
Yes, I agree.  I do not really understand why the Yes campaign are shying away from this. It is the main criticism I have of the Yes campaign.
 
 

Don’t forget folks, just because the official Yes campaign are determined to remain positive and upbeat about everything, that doesn’t mean everyone has to follow suit. The fact that Yes has by far the bigger grassroots support is a big advantage for us. It means we can almost run two campaigns in parallel: an upbeat official campaign alongside an unofficial “the truth about voting No” campaign. The No camp can’t do that, because all they have is BetterTogether’s marshalling of the media, so when they try to mix the two, it just looks daft. Meanwhile, attempts to portray the Yes campaign as being negative can be plausibly denied by YesScotland, while the foot soldiers whisper in people’s ear “you know how you think your pension is safe? Well I bet you thought that about the winter heating allowance – and now look what Labour are saying.”

Every mock referendum in schools I’ve heard of (only heard of 2 or 3) had a large majority for independence????
 
OTOH Stuart’s survey still shows 0 under 16 reading this site.   If they are not getting the truth about things, what can we expect?
 
If they are not reading this site then they definitely not be reading the drier NNS site.
 
We need to try to promote this site more (which will seemingly be infinitely more) amongst the younger folk.   Or maybe BBC Scotlandshire?
 
Probably we need a new young folk oriented site that understands today’s youth.
 
I think I’ll try doing a mock movie poster promoting this site based on some movie genre the kids like (I think) and stick it out on facebook.

Sod’s Law strikes again.  No sooner had I resolved to try to promote this site amongst young folk when lo and behold along comes a comment, and probably the first ever, to make me reconsider whether teenagers should be encouraged to visit here.
 
 

@Chic McGregor
Are you talking about the post I sent at 1.42 pm? If so, would you care to explain?

Calling Scottish_Skier. Calling Scottish_Skier…!
See Doug D’s earlier post. I concur.
I’ll add in it was a landline survey too. No the best way to reach young uns.
I wouldn’t pay it much attention considering we are also dealing with a very small fraction of the population, many of whom won’t even bother voting.
My own feeling is that – while a standard policy of the SNP as a liberal party – the fact that they went down the 16/17 year old route was to get BT to focus loads of attention on this group. Which is exactly what they are doing with their youth reps etc; jeez they even have e.g. wee Jim fae Argyll telling us how he’ll cry if the UK ends each week as the mainstay of their campaign videos FFS. 
Polls show this group is the most volatile. Some show for, some against. I doubt they’ll make any difference at all. However, if BT devotes a lot of resources to a wild goose chase more power to them.

I believe this referendum is all about the kids, the next generation. For me its about trying to pass on something in better shape than when we inherited it. I can’t think of a better gift to give our youth, than a country and a future full of possibilities. The real prize is already won, self determination. A precedent has been set on the right of Scots to determine their own future. What we require now is the seal of approval from the Scots electorate themselves – self governance. Any teens visiting this site should be aware of two things a. What they will gain from independence and b. What they will lose should we remain in the union.
 
What they will gain is choice and a future to mold that is in their hands. They will have a country and society to build as they see fit.
 
What they will lose should we remain in the union? All they have to do is take a look around. Poverty, austerity, elitism, years of crushing debt, governmental corruption and a system of governance which limits their aspirations and stifles their talents and abilities through social pigeonholing. From their own very personal POV how many parents in Scotland can afford the tuition fees to send them to further education? I know I couldn’t. Without the current entitlements available in Scotland, my kids further education stops in high school.  
 
So what’s it to be? A future in your own hands or same old same old? Do you have what it takes to win and build your own future? S’up to you.

Chic-  In general Kids are very good at spotting language that bullshits them.  Telling it like it is to them without being patronising is the best approach.  In terms of blinding and effing they’ve heard it all by the time they are 16.  The standard of language here is better than what passes for news, comment and analysis in the MSM.   By the way the kids are aware of their hormones and all that stuff from school, mags and music no need to be negative about it being mentioned.
On topic- The standard of the reporting of the hootsmin doesn’t faze me.  The first thing that sprung out at me, as well as with the Glasgow Uni polll, is straws… grasping at….
Roll on 2014 🙂

Doug Daniel says:
3 June, 2013 at 2:12 pm

“Aye Chic, as someone who was a teenager when the internet first came to prominence, I think it’s safe to say that swearing etc is not likely to turn off anyone who’s going to be old enough to vote in 2014!
 
If anything, we’re more likely to be TOO tame…”
 
Well I’m clearly even more out of touch than even I suspected.  My kids are in their 30s now so when they were teenagers it hadn’t really got going either.  I guess the social networking has greatly accelerated the ‘growing up’ process.  When I was 14 I was still reading comics and some boys of that age were still in short trousers.
 
You may well be right, and such things are what modern youth expect.  In which case I owe Dal Riata an apology.  In truth Dal Riata I probably would not even have noticed the testosterone stuff if I hadn’t just that minute convinced myself that the thing to do was try to encourage 14 and upwards to visit the site.  Please forgive an obviously out of touch auld yin.

@Chic McGregor
Ach, nae worries, Chic! Differences of opinion are good and healthy and I understand your concerns.
 
I was merely trying to point out some truisms of life as a teenager from the age of fourteen in present-day Scotland. I was not being critical of those youths, just relating some of the issues that are ongoing in their lives. At that early age, the impact of hormones on the body is strong and the urges and, sometimes, the confusions that result from that are usually far more important to the individual concerned than politics.
 
You’re right about trying to get as many of those who will be eligible to vote to come to sites such as this for another view of the ‘truth’ apart from that which is nothing more than Vote No propaganda by the British state. It’s going to be a tough fight. A loss, ie a ‘No’ result, would be a catastrophe for Scotland.
 

@Taranaich
“If we stay in the UK, tuition fees of up to £6,000 will be put in place. If we become independent, our education would remain free.”
 
I suggested at the time (about 3 or 4 years ago) that what they should do is charge everyone the fees, but then give bursaries to students who normally reside in Scotland.  In the same way that LGAs used to grant bursaries.  Would that not avoid a lot of the flack?
BTW not sure, but I think it is up to £9000.
 

If we want the teen vote, just get someone they want to have sex with to endorse yes, that should do the trick. 

I was against independence myself at that age. Hell, I even intended to vote against the re-establishment of the Parliament in 1997, until a wise Art teacher told me not to be so bloody stupid. I wasn’t really all that stupid either, at the time, and knew the history, etc. It’s just that Britain’s propaganda about itself, it’s appearance of being eterna and natural and good, can be very beguiling if you don’t already know better from experience.

The fact is that young progressive type folk can be very prone to the “internationalist” rhetoric that Labour and other “British socialists” spin, and they don’t recognise it as the self-serving rubbish that it is, designed simply to perpetuate an unfair and imperial political power structure.

The UK version of international socialism extends to the borders of the UK and no further. So if they think countries are stupid, they should help to get rid of one of the most stupid, parochial, inward-looking, supremacist, nationalistic ones extant. Get it gone. It’s bad for ye.

A few strategic reminders of the UK’s inherent militarism and inequality, as well as it’s fiscal ineptitude and failure to provide for it’s people (in comparison to it’s closest peers in northern europe), will help some of the youngsters to gain a clearer view, but we are up against the most powerful enemy in the world – inertia.

It’s once the taxman starts going through your pockets each month that politics suddenly seems more important.

If you are lucky enough to have a job that is.

Och high school – the good old days. How easy life was.

Anyhow, saltires everywhere and a Scots team at the commonwealth games should sort the youth vote.

Training Day, that wasn’t my experience of either Yes meetings or the ambassador training.
It is still very much a positive campaign to highlight the possible negative consequences of a No vote and highlight the positive alternative to such consequences by voting Yes.
I agree we can’t allow the No campaign to fool people into thinking that everything will be rosie in the garden of the uk after a No vote.

I think we certainly do need to up the game and agree with Vronsky`s 12:43pm post.
Winter 2013 – we need to start nailing home these points.
Take a look at the BT facebook page. Gloat after gloat and awful lot of not so subtle ”Herr/President Salmond” type quotes. Yet if the Yes team ever said anything a fraction as outrageous as that then it would no doubt be all over the MSM .eg  Hoy’s ”vile” tweets – of ‘You soft sod’.
 

Not all 14 year old’s will be allowed to vote.
My stepdaughter is 14, and she will miss out.

All Opinion Polls must come with a health warning, especially for the mental health. Particularly polls that are not secret/private samples of opinion as was in this case. More Brit Nat dirty tricks. A dirty trick or two a day is thier motto. I have come to the conclusion that only the brain dead now buy the Northern Telegraph.

Following further developments on this poll, I have added a wee article myself, over on my auldacquaintance blog.

In case it hasn’t been mentioned yet, for all those who are bemoaning the yes campaign’s lack of information about the risks of voting no, may I remind you of the SNP’s “two futures” ppb? That short film did exactly what you’ve been asking for; it showed what life would be like after a NO, as well as what we could have after a YES.
 
Stop being so despondent.