Strange times
Posted on
October 05, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We fully endorse this message from LBC’s James O’Brien.
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Wings Over ScotlandA tall tale
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Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Be careful rev, ‘case first they come for you.
YES yet?
Theresa May’s vision of Brexit Britain is a deeply ugly one
NICOLA STURGEON·WEDNESDAY, 5 OCTOBER 2016
Theresa May’s speech comes as the Tories signal they are poised to target foreign workers in the most disgraceful display of reactionary right-wing politics in living memory.
It is an appalling, regressive, and hugely troubling development which will leave many people in Scotland – and across the rest of the UK and beyond – wondering, with real concern, what kind of country the Tories want us to be.
The Prime Minister has claimed that she is seeking out the middle ground of politics – the repellent reality of the policies planned by her party could not be more different.
Theresa May’s vision of Brexit Britain is a deeply ugly one – a country where people are judged not by their ability or their contribution to the common good but by their birthplace or by their passport.
It is a vision the Scottish Government wants no part of, and one which we will never subscribe to. Ours is a vision of an inclusive, tolerant and just society, and we will do everything in our power to shape Scotland in that way.
I really thought that was from the Tory conference :-/
I think this situation may be reaching EMERGENCY…
England seems destined to repeat the mistakes of Nazi Germany. Scotland needs to get its bags packed pronto.
Well, at least some people with a wide audience are beginning to notice and comment on it. That is improvement. Hopefully the moderates in England Wales and elsewhere will also find the courage to speak up against this vile road to perdition.
A sharp line of distinction – and so it was that the Conservative and Unionist Party entered its Fascist period.
It will now plan ‘the cleansing’. Similar to The Clearances.
Coming soon to your neighbourhood.
For your own sake, and your family, your friends and your country, JOIN THE SNP OR THE GREENS.
And prepare to fight for your way of life.
I have a quote for those who still believe in the Tories!
“I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are still truly good at heart…” Last written words of Anne Frank!
Even if the Tories do not follow through on this policy (doubtful), we get a glimpse into the dark reaches of their collective mind. A very dark place indeed.
Of course, if they backtrack from this policy then we all breathe a collective “Phew! That was close. Thank goodness they saw sense.”
And they do that in the hope that we will not then regard hard Brexit as so bad or extreme compared to where they were originally planning to take us with this policy. Is that the plan? U-turn on this insane policy because it will then make hard Brexit not seem so bad as what the Tories are presently proposing.
Hard Brexit, even without this Nazi overtone from the Tories, will be your worst nightmare come true. No perspective will ever change that.
Brilliantly insightful, chilling and probably prophetic.
All I can think now is “Dude, give me back my European citizenship”.
That means our5 football teams are buggered.
Foreign players, go home!
Well said Ross Lowe
Time to man the barricades isn’t far off!!
Scary.
“O What Is That Sound?” asked W.H. Auden in the Thirties.
Now we know.
Jackboots a-comin’.
http://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=o+what+is+that+sound
Well said, manandboy: worrying times.
Message to Kezia and wee Wullie:
When lunatics take over the asylum, what do you do?
What you don’t do is carry on sitting on the fence, pretending that nothing serious has happened. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Get the hell out while you still can.
Rev, git yersel back hame pronto and make sure ye pack yer simmit!
Is anyone else now thinking that perhaps only Scottish Independence can save England from itself?
Nicola Sturgeon, like Ross Lowe and Rev Stu, has stepped up and put herself in the frontline. We must make sure we support that stance whatever follows now.
@ Major.
Time for Nicola to stand up in the Scottish Parliament and to declare to Treasa May.
“You will not be taking my European Citizenship away from me, nor from the other Scottish people that voted remain.”
Deal with it.
that’s Godwin’s Law out the windae eh
Re Ruth Davidson asking to be invited on strictly come dancing. It was always said hitler was a good dancer. The parallels just keep coming.
A harbinger of the end of days folks!
Chilling, very very chilling; an unwelcome echo, that we thought had been defeated, but sadly has lain dormant in those whose fathers and grandfathers fought against such obscenities.
I have been getting rather angry and upset over on Twitter today … not that anyone would notice any change from normal I have to say. 😀
I have now reached a point where I do not care any more. Well I do actually, I deeply deeply care about my country and it’s people. What I do NOT care about are the
TORYNazi party and its minions and supporters.This Nazi party conference held the last vestiges of any chance they could be believed as being a reasonable and responsible party. Thanks though to their leader, das Fuhrer May, all chance has evaporated never again to appear.
Throughout today I have deliberately made the decision to NEVER refer to the Nazi party by their former name ever again. Consequently I now also refer to all their politicians by former 1930’s Nazi titles. I know it may upset a lot of folks but it at least helps me get through the day.
Oh and the next time you hear Reichsmarschall of North Britain speaking trying listening to this instead … it makes much more sense in my view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOlG92rb2Zg
This is where I get confused though. On the one hand I’m an SNP member and want an independent Scotland. But it seems my SNP want to allow all and sundry into Scotland with a warm welcome. So why do we want to splinter our planet up into smaller and smaller bits? Why don’t we campaign for a united planet earth? ie, one big happy family.
England under Edward I in 1290 was the first European country to expel the Jews,
http://tinyurl.com/hordgem
http://tinyurl.com/zpnwuj8
Apologies Ross Lowe – I meant James O’Brien.
If you can stomach anything from the Conservative home site then here is a wee ditty they have about das Fuhrer.
Make sure that you are not eating while reading, or drinking, or have anything within reach that you can throw at your screen.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/10/mother-theresa.html
Best Indy Chance…
http://imgur.com/a/3cyN9
Well observed and so fitting!
Immigrants are a problem!
Scots are a problem!
Disabled people are a problem!
Those who are sick , elderly or on benefits are a problem!
Everyone is a problem except those who are british born and with us!
Ms Davidson should hang her head in shame, what minority will the tories come for next – Martin Niemoller’s famous poem – Ms Davidson should read and reflect!!
Scary days indeed, Scotland needs out of this union, quicker than many of us had thought.
” Hey there. What’s that sound.
Everybody look what’s going down.”
Oh, and if you think the concentration on Britishness is something new.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Backing_Britain
All we need now is a revival of the nearest song Britain has to “Tomorrow Belongs…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT8LsRVN7C4
Stoker says:
5 October, 2016 at 4:56 pm
Rev, git yersel back hame pronto and make sure ye pack yer simmit!
Aye, yer out on a limb, Rev. Bath may be beautiful, but I hope you have your escape plan ready when May’s storm troopers come knocking on the door.
It may sound crazy. but I would not put it past this lot to instigate a big riot somewhere just so they can excuse the inevitable clamp down on civil liberties.
Scotland should have no part of this any longer.
Not in our name and not with our votes.
Warning, do not eat or drink
It’s Mother Theresa now
http://archive.is/VCSBu
All those those who think sanctity of our democracy is safe in their hands, please raise your left hand and keep your arm straight at the elbow so we can see you.
At the start of that broadcast I seriously thought he was quoting someone from the Tory party conference. Seriously. You could even stand up in front of the current Tory party and quote that word for word and get a standing ovation.
Creepy lot they’ve turned into.
Arbroath 1320
The appointed minions of the Nazi party who ran countries such as Poland and Czechoslovakia were called Gauleiters, not Reichmarshalls.
Otherwise sympathy with your sentiments.
Luigi asked what one does when the lunatics take over the asylum ?
Simple, you pretend you are a lunatic.
….
Then the cheeky cow tries to label labour “the nasty party”
Incompetent, absolutely, shambolic, certainly.
The nasty party…..hardly in the same league as the Tories.
As a multicultural site, I give you
Marie Le Pen agreeing with Teresa May!
Rough translation –
If you think you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere
Nana, that should have come with a health warning, added tranquilizers and taser.
They have truely got their fingers in the light socket.
The Marie Le Pen link
http://archive.is/JfqgN
The most amazing thing about James O’Brien’s broadcast,which I listened to this morning, is that it was on one of the most reactionary radio stations in the country. They have Nigel Farage as a shock jock. If this doesn’t result in turning reluctant No voters to Yes I despair.
“You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty”.
Mahatma Gandhi
We can do better…much better
To be fair Fireproofjim I have never claimed to be a historian unlike oor wee Neil Oliver. 😉
However, in my defence, she who I call Reichsmarschall, does parade around Scotland much like her predecessor in Berlin did …one Reichsmarschall Goering … don’t you think? 😀
@Scot Finlayson says: October, 2016 at 5:19 pm:
“England under Edward I in 1290 was the first European country to expel the Jews,”
http://tinyurl.com/hordgem
http://tinyurl.com/zpnwuj8
I’ll tell you something else, Scot Finlayson.
When I was a school boy,(in the then very cosmopolitan Leith). Which was then a very busy port with many different nationalities as settled residents. I had three classmate who were Jews. Through them I got to know an old Jewish Rabbi who told me something that made me very proud of my country.
Now bear in mind the deep scars of WWII were still very, very fresh and my father and uncles not then yet demobed.
There is only one European nation that has never had an official pogrom against the Jews. While the rest of Europe was expelling the Jews the Scots were allowing them freedom of entry to Scotland and protecting them and there have been Jewish families in Scotland, and particularly in Glasgow, since the English expulsion of the Jews.
Historically, in 1290, King Edward I issued the edict to expel Jews from England and that edict was still in force for the rest of the Middle Ages.
It was not, however, an isolated incident but only the culmination of over 200 years of increased persecution.
Cromwell permitted Jews to return to England in 1657 and that was over 360 years after their banishment by Edward I. Now get this = he, Cromwell, allowed them back in exchange for reasons of finance.
I see Pinochet.
@Robert Peffers – Ireland has also never had an official pogrom against the Jews.
A polish chap said to me today, “If they don’t want me, I will work elsewhere, anyway winters coming and I here its going to be a cold one!”
As the lights go out all over little Britain. Winter is indeed coming,
After the lists then what? deportations?, what if they wont go? what will be the solution?
I have never felt such an absolute hatred for this blasted so called union as I do today.
“” Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children’s future. And we are all mortal. “”
John F. Kennedy
Some days all you want to do is weep.
Even more worrying to me was the fact that on the comments page of an article I was reading in the Independent earlier (Amber Rudd; ‘Don’t call me racist’), the only commenters upset by all this were a few Scots; the rest are all giving it a big nod, like it’s OK to think this way.
Totally lost for words. Are these people blind, or do they just have no perception of what this is leading to?
Robert Peffers @ 05:52
…a nice reminder that a nation is judged by it’s action.
The last line in the post by Andrew McLean above is one many of us share!
…and our media today have noticed nothing unusual.
Chilling commentary, extremely well delivered – reminded me a bit of Stewart Lee.
Is Scotland to be Teresa May’s Sudentenland?
Telegraph … “Theresa May to attack politicians who sneer at ‘patriotic’ working class voters concerned about migration”
Only a matter of time until they started this nonsense of nationalism versus patriotism, nationalistic versus patriotic.
George Orwell branded nationalism as nasty and aggressive, while the patriotism practised by the Brits is wholesome and defensive. Orwell, like so many others, couldn’t/can’t see the reality. They are in denial. In their minds the ‘greatest nation ever’ cannot be associated with evil. Simple as that.
British Nationalism is the nasty form while the civil variety of Scotland is decent, outward looking and internationalist.
What we will see is British Nationalism proudly rebranded as good honest patriotism. And of course, Scottish Nationalism will continue to be associated with the ‘dark side’.
I think this goes beyond propaganda, the silly bu99ers actually believe it!
I’ve always been against UDI because of the international reaction and the inevitable backlash by the usual suspects. Now though, I’m beginning to wonder if it might be forced on us as the situation deteriorates. If the tories start to make hostile moves against our parliament there may be no choice but to take back our independence quickly, without a referendum. Either that, or we let them destroy everything we have achieved in Scotland.
They have broken The Treaty of Union in that our wishes are continually ignored and they are no longer a government we can deal with. How many here feel that they could live with the old system we had in Scotland, with a Westminster appointed S.O.S. as our overlord ?
There might have been hope for Britain if we had achieved independence in 2014. Now, it’s too late. They’re too far gone and will never listen to us.
@jimnarlene says: 5 October, 2016 at 5:09 pm:
“Chilling, very very chilling; an unwelcome echo, that we thought had been defeated, but sadly has lain dormant in those whose fathers and grandfathers fought against such obscenities.”
Aye! jimnarlene, but only some of their fathers and grandfathers fought against such obscenities.
Others, including the King of England who abdicated the crown, supposedly because he married a divorcee but actually because he supported Hitler were not alone in England.
Believe it or not many in the English aristocracy were very much NAZI supporters. Including Sir Oswald Mosely, who headed the British Fascists, The Mitford sisters and many others including members of both the Lords & Commons.
Hitler even had an English Brigade in his army.
Try reading this: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
John H @ 6.17
Hang fire John.
We are just finding out how the Tories think the world is going to work.
However this develops Holyrood has still to act,and we heard today that Nicola’s not going to go along with any of it.
Also we are still European Citizen’s at the moment and those law’s still apply,so we have a bit of time yet,no much I’ll grant you but a bit.
We will do this on our term’s and not buy into their playbook of over reacting.
Our visiting and adopted Scot’s are safe and welcome here,we need to concentrate on keeping it that way.
Then we will all vote together to end this madness.
@ Robert Peffers
Yes, I know of the upperclass penchent for the Nazi regime.
It’s still deeply sad and unsettling, that the English ruling party are channeling that evil period in world history.
The anniversary of the battle of Cable street, against Moseley, was this week; kinda makes it even more sad.
That speech clip from the Tory leader on telly there sounded a bit familiar. Still a Tory though.
Where are we now? Interesting question because no one knows the answer. We can only speculate.
Years of Great British this and Great British that seem to have struck a chord with at least some sections of our society.
In Scotland though what is that society? I’ll hazard a guess.
20% Pure Tory rich britnats more interested in their wallets.
5% Uneducated GSTQ brainwashed
50% Committed Yes supporters
25% That we have a chance to convince, this is the key group, they exist, they are real people.
THEY ARE YOUR GRANNIES AND GRANDADS.
They are “US”. Now get to work. We have a referendum to win.
The Battle of Cable Street. Via wiki…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
Hammond will not be basing Trident in Scotland. Brexit will get rid of them. The US do not want them there. Mad McMillian secretly based them there. Davidson is a disgrace. The Tories can’t walk and talk at the same time.
May the multimillionaire. Britain the most unequal place in the world.
Amber Rudd now saying it is a proposal, we may not do it. Backlash ensuing.
Tories in the gutter now.
Liz g 6.33pm.
I understand what you’re saying Liz. I do think that we should be ready for anything though.
Wisnae Me! A big boy did it and ran away.
Yer a Tory, Yer Ruth Davidson. I never called Scots thieves and vandals. Aye ye did yeh bint, we will remember.
Labour are the Nasty Party and Tories the Nazi Party!
Lib Dem of course, just as long as someone gives
Them a job in Westminster.
How nice to have UKIP extremists without joined up
Thinking as England’s only other alternative.
Sort of off topic but I think relevant. An old friend of many (27) years spoke to me today. Her worry? Despite escaping from communist eastern europe almost 50 years ago, she still has a pronounced accent. Over the last year or so she has become less willing to speak to strangers. The last few months, because of TV and Media coverage she now wonders if she will be forced to leave. I could only say to her that here in Scotland she has chosen this country as her home she is, as far as I’m concerned a Scot by adoption. She asked me if I thought independence would make her safer. I said that I thought it would. Maybe poorer for a couple of years or so. It then came back to me, just after GE 2015 I travelled through Stansted airport and ended sitting quietly, not speaking. I felt threatened and people hearing a Scots accent were deliberatly offensive about Scotland. So this xenophobia has been festering for years down there and has now come to show the right wing of conservatism is taking over the home of, not UKIP but of the BNP.
Britnatia waives the rules
No it’s not dyslexia
and its no coincidence the britnats and the BNP have so very much in common.
They’ll find some excuse to start a war soon. ..oops it’s already happened in Afgahnistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya etc etc.
Anyone notice that failing political leaders always start a war to try and hide their domestic incompetence?
How long did it take for the Roman Empire to die?
The British Empire finished decades ago. The just haven’t realised it yet.
They must really think that we are thick as Dundee Marmelade.
Any English company that has no problem with employing “Johhny Foreigner” is more than welcome to set up shop in Scotland if it becomes too uncomfortable under the present right wing extremist UKOK goverment. Come north and vote for independence from tyranny and for continued membership of the EU.
Best the SG starts building more housing. There is a new refugee crisis about to start.
PS the last one to leave Engerland, don’t forget to switch off the lights.
For this long cut and paste job I make no apology. Reaad it and weep.
“And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you.
The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose.
The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed.
Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.
“You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles.
You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.
“Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood.
A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.
“What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or ‘adjust’ your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame.
Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know.”
I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.
Well see that? That’s not me, I have plenty to say and I hope you do too. We must fight this.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
Sorry forgot mention the link was posted earlier by Janet at 6:30pm.
Chilling! I knew it was from Mein Kampf but I couldn’t remember from which bit. I read it some 40 years ago now and how it has come to haunt.
Who writes their speeches?
I wonder if the British Olympic and other ahem British Sports Organisations will have to list how many foreigners are in their ranks?
This is just beyond a joke. The Tory party is now a nationalistic party (although they like to use the word ‘patriotic’ instead). Today the PM moved it towards being a socialist party in economic terms. And she said it’s now a ‘party of workers’. In other words, it’s now the Nationalist-Socialist British Party of Workers. That’s an excellent translation of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (replacing ‘German’ with ‘British’).
If she’d finished her speech with
Now go back to you constituencies and prepare for war
they’d have cheered even louder
especially if it was rebellious (thieving half educated tenement dwelling) Scots to crush
Now seize the fact you are all English or you’re nothing
Yes, working class and middle ground most definitely
If you’re Josef Mengele
So, who’s the blood and soil nationalists now? Eh flipper? Ruth, any words?
Folks, do read “Hidden Agenda” by Martin Allen. Edward VIII,s betrayal of the allies to Hitler.
I’m watching 7 years in Tibet on Film4. I always watch it when it’s on, seems appropriate somehow.
I know Brad Pitt allegedly goes tonto with the in flight drinks, but I love him as an actor, and I think he is great in this film.
Such a sad story.
John H @ 6.49
I know you understand John I think everyone here does.
It’s just dead hard not to let you’re head wander in to the what if,its only human.
We just need to keep reminding each other to do our upmost to finish this they way we got started.
The way we want it done,and not be pushed along by Westminster.
Two years ago this old man voted for Scottish independence because I thought that there must be a better way. Now I KNOW it will be a better way! Thank you, Tory Party, for confirming this.
You know it occurs to me that our fight now is for something even bigger and more important and fundamental than independence – it’s a fight to save and preserve our very way of life. The irony is it’s a way of life that was fought for during the last war and for which so many made the ultimate sacrifice – what an appalling betrayal of their memory. Recent events disgust me and make me fearful for the future of my children and grandchildren.
Up until now, I’ve managed to stay polite and tolerant of those whose views on independence differed from mine – but from here on in if they persist with their views, I see them as a threat to my family and my country and the people who live here and contribute to its existence as a welcoming place to live.
I want no part of their union – we have to win this one folks, or everything that was fought for and won with blood will have been wasted. A tragedy and the ultimate shame of this union.
I actually felt my stomach churn listening to that.
It’s a very frightening turn of events.
Theresa May says that labour are now the nasty party. The only person she is kidding is herself and her Conservative party.
Do you remember how a few weeks ago we were mocking and questioning the mental capacity of our American cousins for potentially wanting a racist liar as leader of their country?
Turns out the jolly old UK is way more stupid as not only do we have them in charge, they will be in charge for the foreseeable future.
Do you think The Donald would want to take charge here? Strike that thought – he’s too left wing and politically correct to be electable in England
Tory BBC r4 news gimps explaining that its all about Teresa the new tory, reclaiming the centre ground. Its pointless shouting get tae fcuk you miserable sacks of tory scum but it helps sometimes.
SNP timeline on facebook’s heaving with mad yoon culture but then someone posts this and you wonder what makes anyone vote tory, other than racists and xenophobes.
“As an Italian woman living in Scotland I thank you all for the show of love and tolerance. It is grim for me but I truly hope that Scotland will be my forever home (I feel like a stray alright atm)”
I feel I’ve gone down the rabbit hole.
The world isn’t as I though it was, it’s a lot worse. Xenophobic Brexit Britain, Donald Trump, all the thinly veiled neo-nazi movements in Europe. I’m feeling quite depressed, to be honest.
I used to live in Scotland, and everybody around me was friendly and welcoming. Colleagues, friends, strangers. Due to family reasons, I returned to my native country but always thought I’d return to my favourite country, Scotland, one day.
I’m now not so sure. I’m a foreigner and the UK gov doesn’t want the likes of me (highly educated small entrepreneur). Scot gov might want me, and the friendly people of Scotland, but they don’t have a say in Brexit Britain, not unless Scotland finally chooses independence.
I feel for all those tens or hundreds of thousands of EU-citizens in Scotland. Scotland values them and their contribution to Scottish society and wants to keep them. But England voted otherwise. To think that Scotland gave all EU-citizens the vote in the indyref, and many of them voted NO, to err on the side of caution and ensure continuing EU membership… And in the next referendum, the EU one, the one that directly affects them, they didn’t even have a vote. My heart bleeds.
But what can I, a single person, do to stop this relentless descent into fascism?
It’s not a unique UK problem, we’ve got plenty of our own bampots in my country, the ugly right is rising everywhere. That’s why I feel so dispirited.
On a more positive note, I hear from my friends with connections to our foreign office that – nothing official, mind – my country is unofficially quite well disposed towards an independent Scotland within the EU. Small, progressive, rich country with Nordic sympathies, could be an ally to us and the other Nordics in the EU, and a EU foothold in the British Isles, similar to Ireland.
So maybe all is not doom and gloom though it sure as hell feels like it right now.
You know, I really miss the positivity and energy of the YES movement before and shortly after 18.9.2014. All the banter and countering the Yoon rage with humour, it was FUN. The Estonians like to think they sang their way to independence, I think the Scots will laugh their way to independence. With their lovely brand of dead-pan sarcastic humour. (I mean, take John Cleese’s “half-educated tenenment Scots” and it immediately became a badge of honour and a source of countless hilarious tweets.)
I’m just so worried about the fascist UK (read: England), and Scotland being dragged down the same way. OK, now I’m feeling depressed again.
@Valerie
The new Macbeth film is on at 9.00 on Film4,
Marion Cotillard as Lady Macbeth is fantastic,
it does follow Shakespeare`s play,
and is about as historically inaccurate as the cringers say about Braveheart,
Mac Bethad mac Findlaích (Finlayson) was a well loved King of Scots for 17 years.
BBC no doubt working on Triumph of the Will right the now, presented by obedient retainer proud Scotbut Neil Oliver but SKY do this kind of thing. How many blue tory liars can you spot?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7WiX4GzJAI
@ lumilumi,
You’ll ALWAYS be welcome, in Scotland, fear not.
Apologies for the off-topic, but just want to direct your attention to an EU Activist’s pack we’re distributing for £6 http://www.ayemail.scot/store/?model_number=EU-ACT
And if you can, please support our fundraiser to put vast quantities of campaign materials into the hands of Yes groups!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4/x/6905220#/
Much obliged!
Lindsay
No sanctions for vulnerable people in Scotland from April 2017.
Vote SNP/SNP May 2017
If the Tories had not ruined the Scottish Oil & Gas sector with high taxes when the price had fallen Scotland could have had nearly full employment. The Tories lost Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs.
The Councils are not allocating the nursery funding they have been given. The Councils are not implementing the system properly and claiming there is no take up. When people inquire they are told they are not eligible. It would get more people into work.
The Scottish Gov policies are not being implemented by Councils. Councils are wasting £Million/Billions of public money on non mandated grotesque projects, ruining City centres. Wasting public funds which would be better spent on essential services. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.
Aberdeen CC latest mad scheme. A railway to the Airport. They just need to move the airport entrance/exit near to the train station, across the runway. It should have been established near the railway station in the first place. Total incoherence. The mess in the City Centre is a disgrace. The best thing would be to demolish the Muse’s mess. Blocking off roads will cause more traffic chaos.
A bit O/T but here goes , i have been looking for a previous post that lists failed MSPs we are lumbered with but cant get rid of i can’t find it anyone help , also anyone know how many of the new Tory MSPs are list MSPs ? thanks in advance .
@ RogueCoder/Lindsay
Order made, thanx in advance, Jim.
I dished this out elsewhere, mainly as I’m afraid. Really afraid of and for the future of my country. I earnestly hope that I’m wrong….
The Scots, for a thousand years, have had a habit of pandering to their masters, would be or otherwise. Those Scots ranging from kings to the lowest peasant.
Always, the pandering was done for personal gain and frequently just simple survival. The betterment of the country seldom came into it.
As we drag through the centuries, nothing changed. Still the same cowing and convenience, right to the independence referendum when a slew of so called Scots bent the knee to England in all and any of its own requirements. Even over the past few weeks, we have seen lickspittle Scots such as Davidson and Torrance together with the usual illiterate London Labour in Scotland minions, downing Scotland, one way or the other.
I have been a supporter of independence for my country ever since primary school days when I knew that there were four farthings in a penny, not for economic gain directly but simply as I have always believed my country should be governed by its own people in whatever way they think is appropriate. Just like most other countries.
I have a feeling that today’s Scots just don’t have the courage to go the whole hog as they seem to believe everything which appears in the anglo media. Too many Scots think that what happens around them here is just the same as in England and hence, English complaints etc apply equally to Scotland. Too many do not appreciate that their country is a totally different land to that lying to the south. If the current neofascist cabal in Westminster continues on its path, Scots might well find it difficult to do much about independence unless they take what may be the last opportunity, hopefully not to far distant. Hopefully the younger generation will come to the rescue of us older ones and Scotland.
Labour not saying much online. JC’s broken cover, but just oh dear what a todoo etc. Its a lot like the awful Corbyn flip flop on Trident, despite holding vice-presidency of CND. No nukes, ok some nukes, ok most expensive nukes, but I would never push the button…
SLab are even weirder. Presumably “cordoning off our bit of land” means Scotland running Scotland not England running Scotland on our behalf, maybe.
Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 7h7 hours ago
Genuinely struggle to understand those whose response to xenophobia is to propose cordoning off our bit of land and leaving the rest to rot.
Tory twits like this still smearing YES vote Scotland with er, tory shite. Kevrage’s main contribution to Scottish democracy was telling his Scottish workers that he’d sack them all and move to England if they voted YES 2014. Then he lied about it, as you do, toryboy style.
Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 2h2 hours ago
I tell you what: being wooed by nationalists is harder work than I expected
lumilumi at 8.28
As a Scot with Finnish grandchildren I share these thoughts of a Finn with Scottish connections. Posted on FB for my (foreign) New Zealand relations (including Scotland-resident nephew) and sundry “overseas” friends living and working in the Edinburgh area. I am still here to write these words courtesy of a triple-bypass op performed last year by a team of Italian surgeons in ERI.
Hell mend the fascist tories!
@lumilumi
“But what can I, a single person, do to stop this relentless descent into fascism?”
You can just keep on posting here as you have done for a fair while. We on Wings oppose fascism too.
Well, I’m cheered to hear that bit. 🙂 Really, genuinely, and thank you for bringing it to attention of those of us who do not hear LBC.
Things are getting a bit bad now, aren’t they? It’s hard to think we might be heading for a “Tomorrow belongs to Theresa” thing, but it is scary.
No tory get the foreigner stuff comment from BetterTogether Slovenia branch either, funny that.
Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
Philip Sim ?@BBCPhilipSim 6h6 hours ago
Honorable mention in the tie stakes today for @DerekMackaySNP and @ProfTomkins, who seem to have more common ground in fashion than policy
Don’t anyone show this to the Conservative party, or it’ll be coming soon from a Conservative near you. They’ll probably make it party policy.
http://archive.is/qP9mx
Aye there is a deafening silence from Labour on this, especially in Scotland.
They claim to be Internationalist and Trades Unionists.
Well they are making a poor job of objecting to these Fascist outpourings from the Tory Rally (in Birmingham of all paces how’s that for a provocative location).
The modern Labour Party in the UK are a poor excuse considering they claim to be the inheritors of the spirit of the Internationalist, Trades Unionists who went to Spain between 1936 -39 to fight the Fascist.
Saw a headline from the express it SHOUTS Sturgeons Shame as Westminster could take away powers from Holyrood post Brexit.
FFS what planet do these knobs inhabite ? They are scum nothing more nothing less.
Front page of the National tomorrow is right on the money.unable to link sorry.
My granddaughter is Scots-Polish and I’ll be fucked if those Tory bastards will take her right to stay here away.
EXCELLENT front page of the National tomorrow (as others have pointed out above).
https://twitter.com/ScotNational
The Tories are thick as shit when it comes to Scottish affairs.
I’m being realistic here no bullshitting. Lets get it on.
Shocking stuff.
But on the plus side I’m noticing on Facebook some unionists rightly alarmed and some even praising Nicolas words. Some have actually said, ‘ I never thought I’d say this but Nicola sturgeon is right’. I’m avoiding the temptation to do an – I told you so.
Some of them are definitely moving from no to yes. We need to handle this well. We won’t win Indy 2 with being self righteous. Though inside it will be tough at first!
Forget SLAB, LIBDEMS & Tories they are the establishments goons in Scotland. They are here as tools of the Westminster establishment, they are the same unionist group with same objective, keep the Scots down. They are all cheeks of the same ar*e their job is to keep Scotland on its knees. Why anybody thinks that SLAB LIBDEMS will defend Scotland defeats me. It ain’t going to happen. The EBC MSM etc are all tools of the establishment they ain’t going to turn on their lords and masters who pay them.
We are on our own in a very hostile environment against a very ruthless foe. Let’s just get on with the job of getting rid of the colonial masters.
@Jockanese Wind Talker
That’s actually unfair, both Dugdale and Rennie have condemened the tone of the Tory conference.
Do not worry about us Scots this wee country is a lot tougher than she looks lumilumi 😉
And we are always welcoming we have a few idiots that like to mouth off but they are a minority and you have our permission to kick them in the nether regions if they do.
Terry
You are right, I have heard a few people express disappointment at the way the UK is heading. They really didn’t expect this. We need to both press home the argument that there is a better path than this road to ruin and avoid triumphalism or plain unpleasantness.
There is more joy in the but and ben over one converted unionist than a 100 righteous independence supporters….or something like that.
OT
Put Syria up on Google and zoom out to see Russia, and look at the route the Blackjacks would have had to take last November to bomb Syria and stay in international airpsace. Fair makes you think.
http://archive.is/zy7nS
@Papadox
We still need 50% to win. Where we gonna get them from other than disillusioned Labour of Libs?
So no, we forget nobody until we exceed 50%. Obvious really.
The trouble with populism is that it’s always been a speciality of the fascistic and neo-fascistic right, with their toolkit of superficial quick-fixes and easy scapegoats.
So whither Labour in Scotland now? You have to feel some sympathy for their supporters in England, who have nowhere much to go, but how now can their remaining Scottish faithful with good conscience tell themselves, let alone the rest of us, that they would still prefer to remain for the forseeable future in the hands of an increasingly right-wing and xenophobic rUK?
For the first time I think Kezia has sounded genuinely shocked at the direction the UK is taking.
The question is what is she going to do about it? Fall back into the SNPbad habit that Labour just can’t break and give Ruth an easy ride? It will be a terrible shame if they do.
I draw no distinction between the Conservatives and any other unionist party, unionist supporter, or journalist including the cringing 55% who voted No in 2014 they are all equally complicit in shackeling us to the decaying corpse they call a union.
I have equal contempt for all of them and when the day comes Scotland declares her independence they may be tolerated but never forgiven not in my eyes
Graeme
Tomorrows National
Now that really is doing their job
Any other papers got the guts?
Lenny Hartley @ 21:32,
Lenny, I know how you feel, mate. The Daily Slug is just Union porn. I honestly don’t understand how any decent newsagent of any political persuasion could allow it to defile their shelves. (Or any decent journalist write for it, for that matter.) It befouls democracy.
One can only hope that most sensible people seeing its increasingly-shrill and bonkers headlines will just be persuaded to laugh and believe the exact opposite!
This tweet from David Torrance: “There was a real opportunity for the Tories to embrace a positive, civic English nationalism,but instead they’ve gone for the nasty sort “.
and this one
“For most of 1970s Tories were Heathite/post-war consensus types & Thatcher in opposition was reasonably moderate; radicalism came later”
We need to wait and see how Scottish Conservatives are going to take all this. My feeling is they condemn it – or are back to single figures in the elections. Hope as well. I’d settle for 0%.
@ Robert Graham
This might be the one you’re looking for,
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-stagnant-pool/#more-85034
@Terry
Absolutely. Perhaps we need to sit back, or sit on our hands, zip our mouths, and let them get on with it.
We all knew when Cameron stepped down the Tories would go to the right, but I doubt many of us realised they’d go this far. People have said BNP / UKIP. No, the Tories are far worse.
https://caltonjock.com/2016/10/05/scotland-will-rise-and-be-a-nation-again-there-will-be-a-full-sturgeon-moon-in-august-2018-if-the-portents-are-favourable-nicola-sturgeon-may-well-elect-to-ask-scotland-to-decide-once-more-this-t/
@THEPNR 9:58pm
Thepnr, my point is where is Kez & Wullie and their troops, MPs MSP while the Tories have free range at ripping Scotland to bits with the aid of their lying EBC MSM propaganda units. They keep their mouth shut and out of sight to let their masters, the establishment, get on with the dirty work.
The foot soldiers can do their own thing but when the elected reps just take the dosh and hide oot the road o the busses then they ain’t going to help you. They are spineless.
It may be worth pointing out to elderly express readers that that would mean prescription charges and paying for any care help.
Well, it’s offiicial then: this magical “Centre Ground”, so beloved of vote-seekers, has now been defined my Mrs May et al. Therein dwells the ignorant, the xenophobes, the racists and the “working class” “ordinary” folks, the climate change deniers and all those against the welfare state. Perhaps her traditional right-wing colleagues can now explain why this is too moderate for them.
They say that if you sleep with dogs you’ll wake up scratching. The sooner we vacate this kennel the better.
All bordering on Mugabe-esqu behaviour from the Tory..
I’m glad that the press are reporting it all accurately though. Phew.
Like Lesley Neilson infront of the burning fireworks building (if memory serves me right) saying ‘nothing to see here’
Time for calm heads everyone – that witch May is trying to pick a fight so that she feels in some sort of control. She probably wants to force things along as quickly as possible in the hope that she can still get a NO vote. Wee Nicola is playing the long game so we go for a vote at the optimum time.
Expect Davidson to get a right roasting at tomorrow’s FMQ to bring her back down to earth the same as Kezia got the treatment last week.
Now I’m really f’d off. For the second time, my musings on patriotism vs. nationalism disappear into cyberspace, so I won’t try again. Pff’t!
And to DerekM and others who assure me how welcome I’d be in Scotland. I KNOW that. And I thank you. The fucking problem is that Scotland is shackeled to xenophobic Brexit England. Gaaah!!
OT
But I had missed that there had been an expose last month of the bullshit around the war in Libya
and this link ties that in beautifully with a full frontal on those perennial Wings favourites, the MSM.
http://archive.is/sRATS
Alan at 10.36 many thanks for the imfo Alan saved me loads of time ,i should have guessed the heading ” the stagnant pool” very apt thanks again.
GrahamB at 10.52
The problem is that no matter what roasting Ruthie gets at FMQ tomorrow it will not be reported as such and unless everybody watches FMQ the truth will not be known
re my 11.01
The real story behind the Libya bullshit –
for which we have to thank the arrogance and carelessness of Hilary Clinton’s emailing practices.
http://archive.is/AxSaH
HandandShrimp @22:09, Papadox @22:33,
Well, there’s the thing. Where will Kez and Wee Willie stand now? They can surely see where this thing is heading, but do they (and the party behind them) have the integrity and far-sightedness to re-evaluate their stance on independence?
Personally, I doubt that either official line will change. The LibDems seem to have happily abandoned every last one of their presumed ideals, and not even dear old Henry McLeish seems able to definitively come off the fence for Labour.
But their one-time voters, that’s something else. Besides the dedicated Corbynites who seem to think the Second Coming is nigh, the rest are either going to be fooled by disMay’s newfound populism (esp. the Loyalists) or are going to switch to indy in disgust and leave their old allegiances to wither yet more. I believe that many of them do have principles though and unfolding events are steadily opening their eyes. (And for the financially self-interested, the pound has only begun to tank.)
As for Ruthless, I hope Nicola et al really do give her laldy tomorrow in Parliament for her shameful and unprincipled U-turn over Brexit and the pathetic self-denigration of her fellow Scots at the Tory conference. Her reputation for “telling it straight” is in complete tatters now.
Carrying on from the previous post ,
I hope Nicola goes for her big time tomorrow real nasty stuff , never mind the long detailed answers to ruthie’s stupid questions , short concise answers leaving as much time as possible to get stuck in you bet it will be reported if there is something to see, and at every opportunity remind viewers that most of the clowns on her left managed to sneak in the back door having been rejected at the last election use the opportunity to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the tories , christ we might ever manage to find a labour msp with a spine among that gutless shower who knows .
Strange times? Maybe
Terrifying times? Definitely.
Can anybody enlighten me what would happen in the following scenario?
Nicola decides on a date for inderef 2. Say summer of 2017, after hard Brexit.
Teresa May says you can’t do it. Westminster will not allow it.
Nicola goes ahead anyway.
Teresa May says the result is not binding and we advise all Unionists to boycott the referendum.
Massive win for Inde in referendum, but with the Unionist boycott only about, say,60% of voters take part, and the the winning side has under 50% of the total electorate.
Cue a lot of fuss and threats from all sides.
I think my scenario is quite realistic but would be glad to get opinions.
I don’t know what’s going on, another comment dissappeared into cyberspace…
Anyway, O/T
Press freedom and transparent government. Did you know that it’s a Finnish innovation?
We’re celebrating 250 years of it. Antti (Anders) Chydenius, a Finnish Enlightment philosopher, politician, economist, clergyman, deputy to the Sweden-Finland Diet (parliament) advocated and pushed it through. In 1766 Sweden-Finland enacted the first press freedom act in the world. We said NO to state cencorship.
Others, like the UK or the US, have tried to emulate it, and claim “press freedom” (with reservations and protections for the elites).
http://www.painovapaus250.fi/en/press-freedom-250-years
I don’t entirely blame the English for this, for too long they’ve been spoon fed better than other people and fear of difference dirty politics. it’s how the Westminster Tories of both colours have always worked, keep peoples minds off what you’re doing by making them fear everything else and you win control
They created the space for UKIP and BNP and others of that ilk to grow and now the mainstream parties have to take control of the ground those parties were occupying and make that space their own thus dismissing all opponents in one fell swoop
The poor sods the English Joe public are victims of a massive scam and they’ve fallen for it hook line and sinker and now they believe it’s all OK to be as unpleasant as they feel like thus the Tories win again by taking the peoples minds off what’s about to happen to them
We can probably expect the hatred stoking to increase to a frenzied level against us up here in Baad Sturgeonland and when you think congratulations are being sent to the Tories by folk like Marine Le Pen you know the kind of views they’re attracting
The English folk will come to their senses but just in time to be too late to save themselves but by then they’ll be damned, and damned not just by us but by Europe too for being a political pariah state where only the nasty flourish and good folk live in unrest
This is not going to end well for anybody except once again the same unpleasant political power hungry millionares their Lackeys Wannabees and Familiars
Prepare to bare your necks and have your blood sucked she’s coming for you
This is what the Finnish Enlightment philosopher Antti (Anders) Chydenius said more that 250 years ago.
The freedom of the nation is always proportional to the freedom of printing it possesses, so that neither can exist without the other. Where printing is muzzled by some form of guardianship, it is an infallible sign that the nation is fettered.
He could’ve been talking about present-day Scotland.
No one needs a crystal ball to foretell the ethnic cleansing the Conservative and Fascist Party are going to systematically conduct over the next 8 to 10 years.
In England & Wales that is.
Even those in Scotland who can normally be fooled all the time, will now surely come to their senses in enough numbers to get Independence over the line. Except of course for the Loyalists, but then again, you never know.
lebensunwertes Leben. AktionT4.
In Germany it started with targeting the disabled and those unable to work.
In the U.K. It started with Ian Duncan smith. Targeting the disabled and those unable to work.
Now it’s the immigrants.
The rest. As they say is history.
Yes! the torys are no longer the nasty party.
They are now the Nazi party.
We thought UKIP were bad. They were amateurs.
lumilumi @12.18
Couldn’t agree more. Hate what the UK is turning into against all my principles. We need to get out.
Fireproofjim @ 11.44
I think that in the event that a referendum is is blocked or the result denied,thats when our MP’S act.
Now I don’t know the in and out of it, but, it’s a long the line’s of what Thatcher ment when she said all Scotland had to do was elect a majority of independent minded MP’s,to be independent.
Now not only do we have the MP’s but they would also have the mandate from a successful referendum.
Don’t think they will see a boycott as an answer because they know the power of the Scottish MPs and will know as long as Holyrood are quite open the result was binding then they would need to be in it to win it so to speak.
There’s also the option of asking formally for The Queen to forfill her role as the protector of the Soverenty of the Scottish People,cant see them allowing her to be dragged in.
Just my opinion but that’s the one that’s the,ulitamate option and not UDI.
Not only because if she doesn’t we could fire her,but also because there are rules about her interference with Westminster.
She would have to pick a Crown and have an argument with herself.
Now while that all might sound a bit crazy,so is the concept of Monarchy and is at the very least a choice.
IMHO one that should at least be attempted well before UDI,or any direct action because then we have indeed explored every legal route.
Also I don’t think they will risk their monarch being seen to be illegitimate if we fired her and she wouldn’t go.
So yes we do have power and they know it.
It’s just half of Scotland who doesn’t.
Fireproofjim @ 23:44,
To cut a potentially long reply short, a unilateral referendum would inevitably be beset with legal challenges that would scupper your scenario. An agreement with UK Gov short-circuits all that.
Calling a referendum (or blocking one, for that matter!) is a fine line to tread. You have to have sufficient acquiescence, if not actual outright support. If you are seen to be playing games and trying people’s patience, you get a self-defeating negative backlash. If you are seen to be defending people’s rights against an overweening opponent, you garner support.
If you are already assured of overwhelming support for independence, as happened in 1905 with Norway’s dissolution of a (somewhat enforced) union with Sweden, you can basically call a referendum any time. They had a post-hoc confirmation referendum which delivered a genuine 99.95% in agreement. (People rallied behind the deed.) Alas, we do not have such a luxury. Not yet, anyway.
Always worth bearing in mind that the Tories achieved power with ONLY 36.9% of votes in the 2015 general election. This was of course thanks to the completely undemocratic voting system.
With little more than a third of voters backing them, they are able to embark on their Brexit suicide mission.
Don’t you just love ‘democracy’ Yoon style?
SCOTLAND will lose up to 80,000 jobs in a decade as a result of Brexit, but the rest of the UK will suffer even more, the country’s leading economic think tank has predicted
http://archive.is/NXkac
LABOUR has been accused of hushing up a child pornography charge against one of its councillors ahead of a high-profile byelection.
http://archive.is/GXp9H
Tory MSP repays expenses after aide’s hotel stay
http://archive.is/OHf6x
Robert Graham @8.48pm
If my memory serves me right only 7 of the tory MSP are constituency MSP’s the rest were list MSP’S. Galloway, Ayr, Aberdeen west, Edinburgh central, Eastwood, Dumfries and Ettrick.
FMQ’s could be a firework display later today. Here’s an interesting quote from The National –
‘Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said: “Ruth Davidson is right that Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for Scotland but Ruth Davidson should stop pretending she speaks for the Union. The Conservatives have done more damage to Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom than the Scottish nationalists could ever dream of. Brexit and stirring up English nationalism have risked our United Kingdom and the Conservatives are responsible for both.” Will he have the guts to say that later today?
galamcennalath @ 01:31,
Yes, I recall f’rinstance the Beeb gleefully joining the papers back awhile in that tabloidesque witch-hunt over MPs “duck house” expenses, but not a peep of a deeper analysis from any of them about why: the fact that the vast majority of MPs have jobs-for-life through an utterly corrupt undemocratic electoral system.
Plus the fact that WM elections are not even decided by anything like 36%, but actually by a ridiculously small number of voters in only a small handful of marginal seats that parties like the Tories plough an enormous amount of money and resources into winning.
That’s when I finally gave up on the whole unreconstructed midden that is WM and the unreconstructed MSM that doggedly and uncritically shields it.
@Scott
Psycho Eddie was not the first to expel the Jews. Usuary, was deemed incompatible with Christianity (because of the story of Jesus overturning the moneylender’s tables). Other countries had temporarily expelled them before this.
Jews, being non Christian, were not constrained by the church’s anti-usuary stance, so antipathy among Christian communities was fairly widespread.
Psycho initially tolerated the Jews because by arbitrarily taxing them he could effectively launder their moneylending profits to fund his ambitious military plans (i.e. invading every neighbouring country).
However, he was the first to require Jews to wear an identifying badge and when he had exhausted their revenue raising capacity, the first to permanently expel them under pain of death.
A situation which existed throughout the Middle Ages until well into the seventeenth century in England and therefore also Ireland and Wales.
Thus validating Psycho Eddie’s claim of being the first Hitler.
It is claimed Scotland was the only country in medieval Europe never to have expelled the Jews.
January 30, 1933, anyone?
And they call we who support a free Scotland blood and soil nationalists. Watch Labour do nothing – Corbyn, the so-called Socialist who does not support Scotland’s right to self-determination – and impale themselves on the fence.
We are heading into the abyss unless we extricate ourselves from this filthy farrago of lies, liars, and Tory layabouts
OT – EU myths
I got this links some time ago but just having a look. In forums I’ve seen the Leave mob sneering how CAP gets paid to subsidise wealthy landowners. Well in Scotland (and Wales and NI) there’s a cap (pardon the pun). England doesn’t have the cap.
https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/ceiling-flaw-in-suggestion-eu-rules-behind-payments-to-big-landowners/
Jings, there’s a lot of myths floating around. Link for the main Euromyth page:
https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/
FireproofJim… 11:44
That’s too late Jim.
Scotland is out of Europe if we are still part of the UK when the Brexit clock strikes 12. And no holding pen status either because Europe cannot connect with us without our sovereignty in the bag.
My personal belief is a de facto UDI is more credible, but everybody rejects the idea. But I respectfully suggest they are wrong, and the answer is right in front of us.
Everybody assumes the UDI is a hubris fuelled imposition of will by a minority upon the majority which rejected Indy barely two years ago. A last gasp act of desperation. I’m not daft, I see that.
However, suppose it isn’t the SNP leading the charge towards UDI. Suppose instead it is Scotland’s lawyers who finally get to grips with this constitutional fudge which Westminster undoubtedly is. If the Act of Union is deemed in law to be unsound, and it is unsound – because Scottish popular sovereignty is silenced, then the Union does not exist. It cannot exist in the form it does. You have a UDI by default, merely by the firm and impartial application of lawful rigour.
The law is impartial, or meant to be, but the law is the law, and with the Act of Union shredded, we are two sovereign Kingdoms.
However, we could in that scenario give ourselves the holding pen status which Europe describes; we are an independent country with a constitutional crisis with this de facto union which might have lost its legal legitimacy but which nevertheless creates the reality we live in and which might yet be recognised properly.
Cue the constitutional plebiscite I keep banging on about, where Scotland’s insoluble sovereignty is properly recognised, but where one of the options in the plebiscite is a new Act of Union, but this time around not a fudge like Westminster, but a properly consensual Union which might function as closely as possible to the present day UK government, but for the first time in its existence, due prominence is given to intractable nature of Scottish sovereignty and its incompatibility with English sovereignty. We don’t end the Union, we make it respect our mutual, but legally incompatible, respective sovereignties and salvage whatever is left.
There is a UDI in there, but it’s essence is recognising a constitutional irregularity, putting it right, and readjusting the prevailing system of government to respect the corrected reality.
If the majority of Scots want to be united with England, then let that be the solution, but make that a modern political union with diligent observance of both respective sovereignties. A Union of willing partners where one constitutional setup is not foisted upon the other.
We have a broken Union, but paradoxically, fixing it might actually fast track recognition of Scotland’s sovereign independence, and empower a sovereign nation to engage with Europe, and with England, with binding contracts signed with a sovereign signature on the table.
It is a de facto UDI, but in reality, it is a de facto observance of what the law of Scotland actually says. It’s not a unilateral Declaration of Independence, it is a multilateral recognition of legal probity, but the effect is the same.
It’s not a UDI, it’s a MRLP, but nobody knows what a MRLP is…. yet.
As the Tories try to rebrand themselves as the friends of the working class,let’s all remember that their personnel is much the same.Theyre the same Tories that inflicted the bedroom tax on us.That drove folk to suicide with their benefit sanctions.
The whole point of the common market was that we would talk and value our European neighbors thus minimising the risks of another conflict across the continent of Europe that grown in to EU
Is it not telling that the moment a nation takes steps to walk away from this ongoing discord that they language sound do quickly sound to chillingly familiar to that that last tore this continent a sunder.
Time to leave these nightmares sold as dreams behind.
Time to control our own destiny
Time for Independence
Tories in Scotland are representing a fascist party. They will be aided and abetted by their hilfswilligers in Lab and Libdem groups. The Scottish Greens must now stand up and be counted.
It really is hard to believe that while England disintegrates into a self induced black hole of xenophobia, there are still Scottish obedient retainer Yoons desperately clawing onto Scotland, trying to pull us in with them.
As of today, I don’t think Scotland has ever been closer to being Independent than is has been in the last 300 years.
We really cannot afford to miss this window of opportunity, as we may never have a better chance to save our country.
http://calumcashley.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/tory-benefit-scroungers.html
https://auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/2016/10/05/media-repetition/
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2016/10/05/welcome-to-the-pleasure-dome/?
http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/Scot-Gov-UCG-decision
FT-issues-foreign-workers-challenge-to-amber-rudd-by-revealing-staffs-nationalities
http://archive.is/iEpr0
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/05/it-s-time-we-named-and-shamed-those-fuelling-anti-immigrant
britain-is-sending-foreign-doctors-home
http://archive.is/BVngH
Theresa May has been accused of wanting to cover up war crimes
http://archive.is/GIU7f#selection-4643.0-4643.63
Doubtless ‘Strictly’ Davidson will lock her purse in the office safe, and go to the toilet before she attends FMQ today: Holyrood, that den of scots vandals and thieves.
I expect the toilets to be ransacked, wrecked if you will, and thieves to haunt the corridors of power.
If Dugdale, Rennie, and Harvie don’t go for the Tories today, after the disgusting Birmingham Fascist Rally, there is no hope for them Up Here.
The Tories will smirk and scream blue murder about the SNP’s fixation about Independence of Course.
Will Professor Tomkins get time off from the Uni to attend?
theresa-may-conference-speech-Gave a Monstrous Ideology a Human Face
http://archive.is/oFvb2
Former editor of exaro /CSA exposed on Talk2Me radio
https://audioboom.com/boos/5129802-csaexposed-episode-one-what-is-the-establishment-trying-to-hide-5th-october
https://www.rt.com/usa/361708-us-navy-zones-access/
@Smallaxe Coffee time!
oops forgot this one
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/06/mays-decision-to-trigger-article-50-by-march-2017-is-unwise/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37569073
Mein Kampf. He gets his shots in. Forces of populist nationalism probably wont include the British one, which is the best.
“Mr Osborne said: “My book is about the future. I want to apply the lessons I’ve learnt in victory and defeat to the urgent challenge of this Age of Unreason.
“Capitalism and democracy is in crisis. The West is in retreat. The forces of populist nationalism and prejudice are on the rise, amplified by new technology. The likes of Donald Trump say to people, what the hell have you got to lose. The answer is, a lot. Peace, prosperity and security.”
Heedtracker – I should have complimented you on your excellent attack on May’s two-faced speech, the one you posted top of this thread. Many thanks.
BBC r4 Today news very excited about all new centre ground tory party with John Humphries quizzing Owen Smith. So far the whole three hour show has yet to ask what new policy puts Teresa May in the centre.
Owen says he wont serve in JC’s cabinet, so why the fcuk is he on national radio etc? Or why would BBC r4 tory creeps not have on actual opposition, on their Today show?
jimnarlene says at 9:34 pm
“My granddaughter is Scots-Polish………….take her right to stay here away.”
100% agreed jimnarlene.
This is the thin end of the wedge as the Tories appear to be prepared to do just about anything to retain power.
But just remember jimnarlene that:
“In order for evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men to do nothing.” (Edward Burke).
I can’t see the good men (or women) of Scotland allowing evil to flourish.
yesindyref2 says 5 October, 2016 at 9:53 pm
I hadn’t seen a comment from Dugdale when I posted.
I stand corrected.
Breeks: “My personal belief is a de facto UDI is more credible.”
The British nationalists used, lies, threats, and false accusation to stop self-governance. They will used trade blocks and tanks against UDI. And in that they will be supported by many English living here. It would create a visible, voluble division of the population.
We should be entitled to declare UDI considering the rejection of Labour and Tory ideologies, and repulsive people like Davidson getting elected without a vote, but in the end we would motivate a fair number to become Fifth Columnists supporting English intervention by force, and cause strive internally … led by ugly crazies such as Gallagher and God knows who.
Your suggestion of engaging lawyers to do the job is more sensible if they’d get together to compose a Constitution and Bill of Rights, ready to implement as soon as possible, but a people motivator in the short-term.
Grouse Beater says:
6 October, 2016 at 8:42 am
Its cut n paste GB! Nicola Sturgeon’s formal response online, which popped up online in my neck of the woods, just as this one from WoS did.
I am shocking plagiarist though:D
Robert J. Sutherland at 11:26 pm, HandandShrimp at 10:09 pm, Papadox at 10:33 pm last night and others:
If Dugdale, Rennie, and Harvie don’t call out the Tories today then they are no better than apologists for the message of intolerance and hate which was sent from the Tory Conference.
If they don’t then hopefully that means more right minded Scots will see them for what they are, supporters and defenders of the UK/Union first, Party Second and, Scotland a distant Third.
Dugdale, Rennie, and Harvie should remember:
“The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of great moral crises maintain their neutrality.” (Dante)
Jockanese Wind Talker says:
“apologists for the message of intolerance and hate”
Indeed. All unionist need to have a long hard thing about the situation.
We get that they want stay in union for whatever reason – personal gain, BritNatery, whatever – but they now need to consider is their stance really ‘UK first and always, even a neo fascist one’.
Theresa May says the Tories ” will always act in the interests of ordinary, working class people”.
While elsewhere, Britain’s richest 500 people are going to give half their wealth to the poor and the homeless with immediate effect.
Heedtracker: “I am shocking plagiarist”
Ah, that’d account for a lot, but at least you’re an honest one. 🙂
For anyone who missed this mornings coverage of the fraser of Allander institute jobs warning report
Recorded audio here
https://twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/783938864780042240?lang=en-gb
Sorry, completely off topic but I’m desperate.
All thr photographs on Munguin’s Republic have been replaced by ! thingys.
I’m missing Soppy Sunday.
Help.
In Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism even he was in complete denial about British Nationalism.
He describes nationalism as “identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests.”
Which certainly describes British Nationaliism, however Orwell was referring to everyone else’s nationalism.
“Patriotism is of its nature defensive… Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power.” Is Orwell’s apology for British behaviour. It isn’t nationalism, it’s patriotism.
BritNats are always in denial. Their nationalism is aggressive and powerseeking and is willing to sink into the depravity of racism and xenophobia.
England is heading for a bad place, Scotland can get off at the next station.
‘A country that works for everyone’ when every member of the cabinet (and Mother Theresa’s husband)is a millionaire.
Aye! Right!
Bill Hume at 9.49
Me too.
galamcennelath says
‘Indeed. All unionist need to have a long hard thing about the situation.’
That long hard think should include the message they are sending out to the rest of Europe by going along with the Tories, and enabling the Tories to take the UK down this road, giving a boost to the likes of lePen in France and APD in Germany, with elections there next year. Imagine a Europe of right-wing xenophobic states. A good reason for the EU to make the UK be seen to suffer, but unfortunately they won’t get a chance to do that until after those elections.
Scotland leaving the UK and staying in EU gives a very powerful, and opposite message.
Robert Peffers says: 5 October 5:09pm
Robert let’s make a list!
http://www.rense.com/ufo6/nazisym.htm
https://www.oswaldmosley.com/downloads/18b%20Detainees%20List.pdf
And I wonder if on claiming Scotland set up the KKK, a certain archaeologist who pretends to be a historian is actually drumming up support for this lot
http://ikcukkkk.webs.com/whytheklan.htm
Human beings are funny old things.
One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
Hence division of the populace is very simple once you condition them to think one or the other. How a wee North Atlantic island was able to divide control and plunder many far away peoples. O and don’t forget the BIG stick.
The establishment are past masters of this trickery. You couldn’t teach the establishment much in this area.
Democracy, democracy, democracy. If they let us.
@Bill Hume 9.49
Same for me 🙁
http://archive.is/AQGsw
“This doesn’t justify the wilder accusations flying about – the Tories are not Nazis for christ’s sake – but it still seems worth observing that the likes of Marine Le Pen have warmly endorsed much of May’s speech today.”
ATOS and death seemed to go bettertogether, over last austerity Cameron and Osborne reign of tory greatness.
@Bill Hume 9:49 am
Me too, also!
Liz g, Robert J Sutherland, Breeks,
Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my post on what happens if Nicola calls Inderef2 without Westminster agreement.
I hope that the SNP are thinking about this too.
The possibility of inderef2 was in the SNP manifesto, so there is a legitimacy about calling it, and I don’t think Westminster could block it but they will certainly try.
Grouse Beater, are you saying there are no circumstances in which you would support UDI?
I’d genuinely like to know the thoughts of other people in a worst case scenario where our parliament is shut down.
Also, I think the unilateral from UDI could be dropped as a Declaration of Independence should suffice when talking about Scotland.
Did everyone wave to the shark as we jumped it?
The Tories come out with a bunch of speeches that basically take us down a yellow star brick road to Hell and what do the Media do..The celebrate the coming of a new Maggie!
Any Tories in Scotland will either be loving this or wont care as they are only interested in “How does this affect me?” and deem it oblivious.
Labour in Scotland will do nothing. That is guaranteed due to being absolutely skint and needing Labour HQ funds. Labour in England need Westminster funds. Labour in England will softly huff and puff but no one will notice or care.
Lib Dems..wee Wullie will attend every possible photo shoot but still tow the UK line and blame the SNP.
The Greens will be ignored by the media despite being more popular than Lib Dems.
And as for Ruth…the horrid true face of opportunism has once again did what she does best and that’s promote herself. The Damedon is secured and she will surely be in the UK Cabinet within next few years.
As for the rest of us..well, its now or never. We need to stop moaning “Whats the SNP doing?” and do all we can to open up discussions with anyone we know who has been blinded by this horror and throw some truthful light on the dark future ahead if we don’t vote YES.
Welcome to the all new Conservanazi Government.
‘Springtime for Boris—‘
OT
Nurse Cafferkey is back in hospital apparently. Hope she is OK. The stress of the disciplinary hearing would not have helped matters.
Grouse Beater says 9:35 am :
Heedtracker: “I am shocking plagiarist”
Amateur!
To the tune of Santa Clause is coming to town
You better watch out you better not cry,
Get your papers out I’m telling you why
the Tories want to deport the brown,
There making a list
checking it twice
goanna find out if your skin tone is white
Tories want to deport the brown
She’s making a list She’s checking it twice
She’s travelling round the land with a tattooing device
Amber Rudd is coming to town
They see you when you’re browsing
Fascist voters they’ll awake
they know if you’ve got a right to work
So pack those bags for goodness sake
She knows if you aren’t English &knows from where you came
She will never let you vote
So she knows that you’re fair game
She knows if you are foreign & if your kids are too
She won’t like if you if you yellow or brown but she loves a vindaloo
Sees you when you’re sleeping Knows when you’re awake
She’ll ask to see your documents
And insist that they are fake
Polish better watch out!
You better not be Thai,
If you’re Non-WASP, I’m telling you why,
Amber Rudd is coming to town.
Copied / ripped off, from the revs twitter.
Re the idea that Davidson will go south in the next few weeks. Who would replace her. That total bunch of lack luster hanger on that sit around in the Scottish Parliament couldn’t even lace davidsons boots when it comes to leader of the most obnoxious and vile Scottish Tories.
Ruth can at least hold back her vile hatered for the scots just enough to get away with it but none of the others could last 2 minutes of even the lightest pressure from the mist loyal BBC reporter.
I’d love Davidson to go south. It would be a comedy show once she’s gone.
Are we not getting very close to the time when a measure of gentle non-violent civil disobedience might be a good idea.
Something which with the least effort and least repercussions to the perpetrator would cause the maximum inconvenience to our jackboot wearing colonial oppressors.
Any suggestions folks?
gus1940 says
I can never agree to that, it will be seen as a rebellion or just childlessness and give our opponents ammunition
That said I need to change my name details on my TV licences, you know first name to last, then back, oh I think i liked it the other-way, on second thoughts no I didn’t, or did I; ad infinitum.
A few more links before FMQ’s. I hope Nicola brings up the Scots thieves comments made by Ruth Davidson.
https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2016/10/06/british-independence-could-cost-up-to-80-000-job-losses-in-scotland-seen-worse-say-bbc-scotland/
You can read the #Brexit impact report from @Strath_FAI here http://ow.ly/Agsg304UsHw
Opinion: Dear Tories…Your ‘North Sea bit’ isn’t done yet
http://archive.is/f7Auq
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/peter-geoghegan-tory-plans-change-face-of-modern-britain-1.2818199#.V
O/T
I see that Mrs May’s ‘democratic’ Government, the one that’s going to listen to the people, the one that’s going to stamp out corporate greed has overruled a local authority decision to ban fracking. Cuadrilla’s now been given the green light to line their pockets and destroy the Lancashire countryside.
Ruth Davidson will not go south until she knows the games a bogey up here. With 50/50 support for the union, and the media at her back, her mission is not yet over. But I could be wrong, maybe she’ll just jump at the career opportunity while its there.
Anybody else hear the appalling Hayley Millar on shortbread news this morning talking about the Fraser of Allander Institute Brexit report?
Firstly she started questioning the authority of the figures asking if they can be believed. That in it self is no bad thing but when was the last time you heard her do that regarding any report on an independent Scotland? Double standards right there, and a set up to undermine the news item before it even starts.
Then, given that this is a bad news item for Unionists, she starts giving us her own opinion, or the BBC opinion on, what it means and apparently it is important to remember all the opportunities and how well we are insulated by being part of the UK. I don’t care what her or the BBC opinion is, and it is NOT her job to give it to us. All impartiality was lost, and she calls herself a journalist.
This is a really worrying story and a total car crash for supporters of the Union but not to worry, they can always rely on the BBC to spin it their way and bury it as part of some little ‘twenty to eight’ feature. If this report had been saying bad things about a potentially independent Scotland, it would have been the top news item and they would have been slagging the SNP off all day long.
I want to to know why is that BBC Shortbread, always, always manage to present news items in the opposite way I see them? You know I do not what them to be biased to YES either but a bit of balance is required from a state broadcaster.
There is truly no hope for them and they are going to be a big problem for IndyRef2. UK state propaganda been pushed out every minute of the day and available to all the population. No wonder there are so many ‘cringers’ in this country.
heedtracker says at 10:33 am
http://archive.is/AQGs
The comments below the article are the usual anti SNP/anti Scots bile I note.
gus1940 says:
6 October, 2016 at 11:09 am
You wont get enough takers, Gus. Most people are still reasonably comfortable and things are not desperate enough – yet. They wont take to the streets in big enough numbers. The indy rallies manage a few thousand each time, but an order of magnitude greater would be required before the authorities (and the world) would take note. They know that (outwith social media) people are just not that bothered at the moment.
It is a nuclear option, but best left on the shelf for now. Things are still progressing and going our way – too slowly for some, I’m sure, but we have to take the country with us, and we will. Patience, my friend – we are winning. It’s coming, for a that. 🙂
Kevin Evans
I did say she will be in the Cabinet in a few years, not weeks. She was probably a good bet to get the nomination for David Camerons old seat but I think a long term gig in The Lords with its magic pass into the Cabinet will do her just fine. Saves all that silly election nonsense after all.
Once Ruthie gets the next few years of self publicity and faux jolly-hockey stick over Nicola Sturgeons head, over one way or another she will be rewarded with a furry collar and seat next to Michelle Mone.
Even Dante didn’t have that feat of imagination for the final realm in Hell!
Just a thought I had regarding disgusting, xenophobic comments made by the Tories.
Does anyone know if Rooth the Mooth apologised publicly to Christian Allard yet??
GrahamB says:
5 October, 2016 at 10:52 pm
Time for calm heads everyone – that witch May is trying to pick a fight so that she feels in some sort of control. She probably wants to force things along as quickly as possible in the hope that she can still get a NO vote. Wee Nicola is playing the long game so we go for a vote at the optimum time.
Well said – I agree fully. Like Ali against Foreman, we have to avoid a slugging match that we cannot win. Our time to strike will come soon enough. 🙂
@Luigi
Is anyone else now thinking that perhaps only Scottish Independence can save England from itself?
If you add on save England from the British state then I think that explains it best.
O/T
Fracking:
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/government-issues-more-fracking-licenses-companies-linked-tax-havens-20151217
GrahamB and Luigi,
I don’t believe counting on the outcome of one referendum and having to be extra careful with the timing can be classed as playing the long game.
I would tend to believe that the long game would look a bit more like an intent to have an Indyref every parliament ad infinitum.
gus1940: “Are we not getting very close to the time when a measure of gentle non-violent civil disobedience might be a good idea.”
Civil disobedience is always a good thing, Gus, in defence of civil liberties opposed by elected representatives.
Women in Poland have just managed to overturn a ban on abortion by striking.
But do you remember what happened the last time here and elsewhere in the western world? It met with derision and media ridicule. Even church officials asked the police to remove sitters so people could attend Sunday service.
It was a world phenomenon begun by one man.
The movement was called Occupy.
galamncennalath says:
I can see the Cairnstoon now. John Bull driving a locomotive towards a horribly familiar set of institutional gates, with the slogan ‘British Jobs, British Workers’, but the train is stopped at a station called ‘independence’ and Hamish is getting off with his friend Pierre…
Breastplate says:
6 October, 2016 at 11:51 am
GrahamB and Luigi,
I don’t believe counting on the outcome of one referendum and having to be extra careful with the timing can be classed as playing the long game.
I would tend to believe that the long game would look a bit more like an intent to have an Indyref every parliament ad infinitum.
Indeed, but we have to take the country with us. I’m not convinced we are quite there yet. That means IndyRef 2 will be held according to our timing, not Teresa May’s. It’s coming, for a that. 🙂
Agreed Luigi but I would read polls in this matter with a healthy dose of cynicism.
No, the events of the past few days have not been reassuring in any way, shape or form. They have been deeply worrying on almost every level.
I was delivering some rag bags to a charity shop last weekend. The sort of community shop where you can find really cheap clothing and excess can sometimes be had for free.
It was a very busy shop on that day. You’d think we should be happy that those shops are looking so full of people. Should we though?
My wee town has three such, plus a charity furniture shop project and two food banks. They’re ALL busy right now.
Welcome to the UK made by successive Westminster governments of all stripes. A UK not quite as better together as Cameron promised. In fact, the only ‘pooling and sharing’ I’m aware of appears to occur in those charity shops, where folk who actually care literally give to those who need on a direct basis.
This is a UK about to experience a level of hardship, isolation, social division and deprevation on a scale not seen for a very long time. A UK with a government driven by a narrative and an ideology not of our choice.
In Scotland we are fortunate. We can still do something about that. We simply have to want to.
Today’s FMQ’s…
So we have the Tories lining up to denigrate immigrants, and require their sinister registration of foreign workers in true 1930’s Nazi style…
And we have Scottish Labour positioning itself to make sure the trains are running on time…
Does anybody else see the unfortunate irony?
Desmond says at 10.47 “Labour in Scotland will do nothing. That is guaranteed due to being absolutely skint and needing Labour HQ funds. Labour in England need Westminster funds. Labour in England will softly huff and puff but no one will notice or care”.
Hey Desmond , Labour cannot say too much as they are again faced with the conundrum that is unionist politics, in that they NEED to be seen as being ALL things to ALL parts of this (Dis) United Kingdom. Mission impossible in current political climate.
If they call out May/Rudd on immigration then they are perceived by voters in England who voted ‘Leave’ as unpatriotic. Tories and Labour desperate to win back voters from UKIP so instead of coming out with all guns blazing they make stupid minimal comments such as Dugdale’s “Not in my name” comment.
And that my friend is why Unionist politics does NOT work for Scotland and never will. Unfortunately enlightenment is not a strong point with Labour North or South of the border. Perhaps best to let them and their unionist friends to wallow in the mess they have created.
@Liz g says: 6 October, 2016 at 1:07 am:
“I think that in the event that a referendum is is blocked or the result denied,thats when our MP’S act.
Now I don’t know the in and out of it, but, it’s a long the line’s of what Thatcher ment when she said all Scotland had to do was elect a majority of independent minded MP’s,to be independent.”
Do you want to know when, and how, I learned all that and more, Liz G?
Way back, in around 1946/7, when there was no TV stations in Scotland I lived on the outskirts of Edinburgh but went to Secondary School in Leith.
As a teen boy the weekend entertainment was the picture house matinee on a Saturday morning and either the Hib’s, “Famous Five” at Easter Road or the Heart’s, “Terrible Trio”, at Tynecastle on Saturday afternoon.
On Sundays there was Speakers Corner at the foot of the Mound and Edinburgh Monarch’s Motorcycle Speedway at Meadowbank in the evening. In between those times I used to trawl round the many second-hand, & book shops, that were plentiful around the Old Town in those days.
I was a great reader and, on nice days, would retire to the quietness and peace of Greyfrier’s Kirkyard with the books I had bought for a quite read.
I sometimes shared a bench with an old man and after a long time of no more than, “Good afternoon”, he spoke to me about my fondness for books.
It transpired that he was a well known QC and more or less semi-retired. After a while we realised we were both members of the SNP and our conversations inevitably turned to the legality, and historic events connected with the Treaty of Union and the real legal status of both.
The old guy was a font of great knowledge on both subjects and I have always had an excellent memory. The only thing is that I cannot remember all the various references to legal precedence the old QC referred to when proving his points. It was, after all, really just so much legal jargon to me.
What that old man said back than is as relevant to the case today as it was back then but, with the passage of time, the abuse of the legality by Westminster has increased massively.
I note that The Greeens and The Fib Dems decried the Tories Racist and Xenophobic rhetoric at FMQs today,
But there was silence from Dugdale and Slab on this matter in the chamber.
There you have it as far as I am concerned BLiS are “apologists for the message of intolerance and hate” and supporters and defenders of the UK/Union first, Party Second and, Scotland a distant Third.
It would appear that for BLiS they have decided that it is the UK first and foremost.
Even a neo-fascist UK.
@Jockanese Wind Talker says
“It would appear that for BLiS they have decided that it is the UK first and foremost.”
Indeed
https://sputniknews.com/politics/20140914/192928906/Former-UK-Prime-Minister-Brown-Prefers-UKIPTory-Government-to.html
@Breeks,
Yes I do see the irony. I tell you honestly. I am furious about this ,as are several friends in my village. I like many others instinctively feel I want action now, and yet I return to the inescapable conclusion that I trust the judgement of Ms Sturgeon first and foremost.
She is everything and more a leader should be. I put my faith in her till all avenues are exhausted.
Until that time I will keep my powder dry.
10 minutes of BBC Politics lunchtime show, toryboys moaning about BBC bias, old Labour Alistair Campbell spin doc flogging his dairy, gets baited to the limit by Ligger Neil’s idiot side kick, she’s furious about it all, then UKIP’s next leader is reportedly punched out by another UKIPer in Brussels. Shackled to lunatics, is Scotland.
Rancid’s got it all, rolling coverage, biff, bash, wallop, ooyah, and he’s out.
Politics
Politics live with Andrew Sparrow
Ukip leadership candidate Steven Woolfe taken ill after ‘altercation’ at meeting of Ukip MEPs – Politics live
Rolling coverage of all the day’s political developments as they happen
Brian Taylor on about John Nicholson and Scottish press don’t have time he says,what is this all about we know msm is crap.
Godzilla Fracking inc starts fracking in England and
Lucy Fisher ? @LOS_Fisher
Ukip sources claim a party MEP punched Steven Woolfe several times following a charged meeting, as MEPs angry he was considering defection
12:51 PM – 6 Oct 2016
Asa Bennett ? @asabenn
Woolfe, I am told, “took off his jacket and invited him outside” – then there was the ‘altercation’
1:05 PM – 6 Oct 2016
YES yet?
I doubt if there is anything the Tories could do that would make Labour here in Scotland from continuing to support the union.
FFS
Ukip were having a ‘clear the air’ meeting, when Woolfe was struck and hit a window- allegedly.
No harm to the guy, but you can always rely on Ukip to let lose a bag of squirrels when they are needed most.
Statement at 2.30 today by Wheelhouse in Holyrood on UCG. Fingers crossed that SG shows England what a proper gov’t looks like.
OMG.
You could not make it up. Was Woolfe attacked by a fellow member of UKIP?!
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 6 October, 2016 at 1:18 am:
” … To cut a potentially long reply short, a unilateral referendum would inevitably be beset with legal challenges that would scupper your scenario. An agreement with UK Gov short-circuits all that.”
Ach! Weel! Robert, Also to cut a long and involved reply, (a puckle bit shorter as I’m tired of posting it on Wings).
It is NOT legally possible for a majority of the legally acknowledged, “Legally Sovereign People of Scotland”, to declare UDI.
Facts winna ding although the Westminster Establishment have ignored the legalities syne lang afore the 1 May 1707.
The actual Treaty, and both still independent Kingdom’s Acts Of Union, clearly state that Scots Law will remain independent in perpetuity. The reason for that agreement is because of the irreconcilable differences of sovereignty between the two legal systems.
The Kingdom of England became a, “Constitutional Monarchy”, in 1688, (well before the Union). The people of Scotland were legally declared sovereign in 1320. There is nothing in law that makes Her Majesty, Queen of England, sovereign over the sovereign people of Scotland where her role is to be the people of Scotland’s defender of their Divine Right to sovereignty.
Furthermore, under English law, there is a legal precedent that a sovereign cannot give up the Kingdom’s sovereignty but can only abdicate it to the next sovereign in line.
So unless you can quote the legal precedent that allows Westminster to also be delegated the sovereignty of the people of Scotland there is no way that Scots can declare UDI.
I’ll put that a different way for you. The Glorious Revolution in England, (the Kingdom), forced the monarchy, of only that kingdom, to delegate their Divine Right to the Parliament of England, (English law precludes their parliament from assuming republicanism), That is why the MPs must swear allegiance to the Queen of England.
However, Scottish MPs are not delegates of their queen because she is not queen of Scotland but is Queen of Scots.
That means those Scots MPs, (whether they swear fealty or not), are delegates of the sovereign people of Scotland who cannot, under English law, give up their kingdom’s sovereignty. Indeed they have never been legally asked to do so in the entire life of the Union.
No need to enquire why not – is there?
Polly Toynbee grinching away in rancid, same Graun ligger that said no Scottish MP should ever be allowed to hold high office in Westminster again too,
“A wise government facing the multiple threats of Brexit would strive in every way to mitigate its worst effects. The chancellor dashes to Wall Street today to try to calm markets as the pound falls again and future investment to Britain is in jeopardy: the idea of Philip Hammond on a “charm offensive” may be a tad improbable – but at least he’s trying.”
And UKIPers beat the living shit out of each of at the European Parliament. Just another day in the UKOK zone.
Jockanese Wind Talker.m I though I heard Dippity concurring with The FM on Xenogate.
Guy Verhofstadt
38 mins ·
Facebook Mentions
·
Britain has always been a beacon of tolerance and diversity. It is sad to see that Amber Rudd inflames tensions by denigrating “foreigners” who work in British hospitals, schools, on construction sites; in short people who contribute to the British society.
After recent reports about the rise in xenophobic violence, the outside world watches this latest statement with worry and disbelief. I want to be clear: the EU will defend the fundamental rights of its citizens, wherever they are.”
@Breeks
Labour in Scotland being a compassionate party are keen to make sure there are as many trains as possible available to transport these unpleasant foreign folk away “Somewhere” before the more unpleasant Tories come up with further “Solutions”
I’m sure the textile industry will have been consulted on styles of clothing that could be made availabe in order to more easily identify these foreign people as they line up for transport to their varying destinations, and in that way will create much needed manufacturing jobs for British workers
In the Tories quest for a new and glorious dawn in British politics it shouldn’t take long for the folk with perhaps dark hair and brown eyes to be examined as having questionable heritage and in so doing move towards the more desireable fair haired blue eyed model of Britishness which as we all know is the genuine British characteristic
Of course Gypsies and Jews are not up for question, they’re definitely out and gone, that’s a given
All flippant, yes, over the top, yes, until you examine the words of their speeches and those happy adoring faces around the Tory conference hall as those words were spoken
It’s funny how loudly I heard the Prime Minister shout when she banned the Satire from being flown to the cheers of her faithful (Oh, did she not say that, I was sure I heard it)
Anyway It’ll not you apply to you Breeks or me or.. it’s when you start looking around you like a Schindlers list movie …Awful, just bloody Awful
Robert Peffers
“That means those Scots MPs, (whether they swear fealty or not), are delegates of the sovereign people of Scotland who cannot, under English law, give up their kingdom’s sovereignty. Indeed they have never been legally asked to do so in the entire life of the Union.”
I see a contradiction here. As Scots would these delegates no be subject to Scots law rather than English law?
If so then clearly they would not be subject to the part of English law which states they cannot give up their Kingdoms sovereignty.
Peter McCulloch says:
“I doubt if there is anything the Tories could do that would make Labour here in Scotland from continuing to support the union.”
I very much hope you are wrong, however I fear you will be right!
We all jibe about all unionists just being different flavoured Tories. They may prove that view to be correct!
Jockanese Wind Talker says:
6 October, 2016 at 12:48 pm
“I note that The Greeens and The Fib Dems decried the Tories Racist and Xenophobic rhetoric at FMQs today,
But there was silence from Dugdale and Slab on this matter in the chamber”.
Yeh Jockanese, but James kelly MSP ( by default) tweeted last night :
“Another overcrowded Scotrail Edinburgh to Glasgow train tonight. Wonder if people standing in aisles know the profits are going to Holland”.
Oh my God what a f**king huge Banana he actually f**king is.
The silence of the Bams to be sure….yoon priorities eh.
The cnuts just keep on giving do they not.
This just popped up on vile separatists in Arran facebook page, am told. The more things change… well they have changed a lot since the Snatcher Thatcher reign of rule Britannia joy, Brexit, even bigger, more deadly endless wars, giant debt, worst inequality in the west, not sure if old Thatch had soup kitchens, sorry food banks, thug UKIP on 4 million votes and on it goes in teamGB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVwdKfLOa5o
O/T
I see that Ukip’s Steven Woolfe (leadership favourite) is in a serious condition in hospital after being punched at a UKip party meeting in the European Parliament in Strasburg.
No mention of who the culprit is just that it happened during a MASS punch-up.
Mike..sovereignty..a contradiction?
Yes, an elephant sized one, in the here and now.
All this inward and outward aggravated supremacy is being fronted before Tory England negotiates.
It’s not the way an Independent Scotland would act towards other nations.
Robert Peffers, sorry but I don’t follow what you’re saying.
Are you saying Scotland can’t make a Declaration of Independence because they are already independent therefore no need.
I apologise if I’m wrong but could you please clarify?
Wee willy in parliament today raising the issue of the Tory speeches.
Hear the torys are down at the library with a box of matches.
I had German friends now passed away who were nazis. Proper ones that had Himmler as a personal friend.
England is on a very slippery slope.
Scotland wants to be nowhere near them when it happens.
Any one who thinks I’m being over dramatic. Check the history of the rise of the nazi party and the time line. These things happen all to easily.
Lenny Hartley says at 1:32 pm
A we nod, or a “hear, hear” does not a statement make.
Ross Greer and even Wee Wullie actually made a statement.
But if you want to believe in Dugdale that’s your prerogative I did say in my post at 12:48pm “as far as I am concerned BLiS are…..”
I believe BliS are a part of the problem Scotland faces, not part of the solution, you are entitled to believe differently.
I do however believe some of BliSs supporters can be part of the solution and hope that they too see that.
A quite subdued Kezia Dugdale, as befits the hapless leader of the 3rd tier party at Holyrood, made no reference to the Tory Conference, devoting all her attention instead to punctuality on the trains.
It was left to Anas Sarwar to agree with the First Minister’s appraisal of the Tory Conference in Birmingham.
Kezia may just be working her notice, and in the meantime going through the motions. Nice work if you can get it.
Ruth Davidson spoils the atmosphere in the chamber. She’s like a wee boy who thinks he’s being funny by peeing in his bath every night. The sooner she’s gone the better.
I’ve heard it all now.
‘Ian Collins Accuses SNP Of Fanning The Flames Of Racism.’
‘Ian Collins says the Scottish National Party are accusing the Conservatives of racism in order to make themselves look like the nice guys.’
With video.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ian-collins/ian-collins-accuses-snp-fanning-flames-of-racism/
“You do not need to deep very far into the SNP to discover bitter Anglophobia. It exists and it’s foolish to deny it.”
I’m afraid I read Alex Massie’s Spectator piece against my better judgment, which includes gems like the above.
And apparently if we don’t express anti-Englishness it’s because we hide it very well but sometimes the mask slips.
And Scottish football supporters are only behaving well deliberately to annoy the English.
And he’s not keen on Nationalism *pauses to savour delicious irony*.
In three years of canvassing, first for Yes and later the SNP, I have never heard any anti-English remarks from colleagues. This is not surprising given that a significant number of them were English. Do the MSM never think of interviewing any of them? I wonder why not?
Just a thought, Alex. How do you dig deep into the SNP? Infiltrate them wearing a tourie-tap and an ill-fitting kilt? Or just stay at the bar and make stuff up?
Aide mon Robert, as the French don’t say…..
Jockanese Wind Talker I don’t know who you are but you obviously don’t know me if you think I am an apologist for Dippity and Labour. You made a statement that was demonstratably wrong.
If you don’t like getting called out for it that is your problem.
O/T and a bit personal.
Paul (Wee Ginger Dug) was speaking in Carluke on Tuesday. I received a clarification from him as to place and time and went along to meet him and the not so wee dug.
It transpired that he was addressing the local SNP group and I must thank them for their kindness in permitting me’ a non-member, to stay. An enjoyable talk. I had been wearing my saltire/euro flag lapel badge and I added my silver WoS badge.
On Wednesday evening I had drinks with two catholic buddies, still showing both my allegiances. It got very interesting then. Joe the labour extremist had a go at baiting me. He had watched the tory conference. I told him I wasn’t interested in mass hysteria. He then tried to have a go re the KKK stuff and asked about my thoughts on Oliver. I suggested he should get his hair cut. Still no result. He then said “Wings Over Scotland” several times and I ignored him. He then had a go at Nicola, who doesn’t want another referendum because she knows she would lose. I said that was a tautology since she has said she will only call one when she knows she shall win.The TV in the pub was showing Mediterranean rescues of black africans. Maurice went into overdrive regarding keeping them out of Europe. I stirred things up about “Festung Europa”. Joe then tried a new tack. The Church of Scotland had stated in the 1920’s that Irish Catholics coming here were alien to the society extant then. I accused him of conflating two different situations. The Irish Catholics settled here but didn’t kill people.They eventually integrated hence we were having the conversation.
Desperation from a rabid anti-SNP person and knowledge that the SLiS are fully aware of WoS.
The Tories/UKIP are dangerous. English politics is getting dangerous. The Tories are trying to destroy the world economy. So hey can tax evade and plunder pubic money. Greedy Multimillionaires who can’t get enough. Enough is never enough. The Tories have caused illegal wars and a migration crisis in Europe.
The Scottish Oil & Gas sector was taxed at 80% to 60% when the price had fallen 75%. The tax is now 40%. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs in Scotland. Scotland could have had lower unemployment. Untaxed fracked Gas is now being imported from the US. With massive investment. Putting up the balance and payment deficit and the debt.
The Tories have banned wind turbines, stopped coal production, CCS and stopped investment in renewables. Refused Scotland the opportunity to apply for EU renewable grants. Hinkley Point and HS2 are a total waste of public money with no business case. The Tories and their associates will get £Billions of public money transferred in consultancy fees, banking interest etc.
Vote SNP/SNP in May 2017.
@Andrew McLean says: 6 October, 2016 at 10:06 am:
Robert Peffers says: 5 October 5:09pm
” … And I wonder if on claiming Scotland set up the KKK, a certain archaeologist who pretends to be a historian is actually drumming up support for this lot
http://ikcukkkk.webs.com/whytheklan.htm“
The idea that it was Scots who began the KKK has some substance but is not actually what these academic numpties like the long haired one deduce. In fact it is fairly clear.
The USAsian term, “Hillbilly”, stems from a quite understandable root cause when the reason for that term is explained. Those so called Scots who are credited as the instigators of the KKK were in truth of Scottish descent. That is they were several generations removed from Scotland and in fact came from Ireland. Here is the probable more correct deduction.
The, “Plantations”. of Ireland were not of trees or other vegetation but the implanting of immigrants from the rest of Britain.
This from Wiki :-
Those Hillbillies who began the KKK were actually immigrant protestant supporters of, “King Billy”. That is where the term Hillbilly actually comes from.
Pretend academic historians have always come up with what, on the face of it, seemed plausible theories that don’t stand up to real diagnostics.
For another example. The claim that the Scots came from Ireland has been in force most of my lifetime but common sense, diagnostics and archaeological science shows the idea is most likely utter mince.
Think about it – way back then the whole of Scotland was under the very impenetrable Great Caledonian Forest. Land routes were difficult at best. Thus the superhighways of the time were the seas and waterways. It is logical, then, that the people tended to live and travel by water and not overland. Thus the tribe known as the Scots would find it much easier to cross, (both ways), between what was to become Scotland and Ireland. It is less than 22 miles from Scotland to Ireland at the closest point.#
Then, in more recent years, archaeological digs on almost inaccessible stacks and small islands off the Scottish mainland threw up almost identical stone age artefacts that predated those from Ireland.
This indicates the emigration of Scots was FROM Scotland. However, my point about the Caledonian Forest would suggest that the most likely deduction is that the Scots probably inhabited the lands all around the Irish Sea.
Lenny Hartley says at 2:17 pm
OK, I accept you are not an apologist for Dippity and Labour.
I said Dugdale did not make a statement regarding the Tory xenophobic comments in the same way Ross Greer or Wullie Rennie did is this demonstrably wrong?
I would like to thank all you guys in the new Scottish media for your brilliant coverage of this disgusting chapter in this islands history,the lunatics have taken over the asylum maybe you guys should lead the yes movement.
Now the tories have shown us what they intend to do but its all just smoke screen propaganda from the fact the second they trigger article 50 we are free if the EU upholds our right as members,its a constitutional h-bomb and will have to be addressed in the negotiations i can see the EU demanding the people of Scotland and NI be asked to have a devolved government run referendum under EU inspection wait until big Guy lets those EU bureaucrats loose.
Bricking it chaps they are bricking it all bluster and hot gas out their backside.
Stand firm wait until you see the whites of their eyes article 50 not before you will not lose your EU rights that just starts the clock ticking got me a new one Scottish made those yoon ones kept breaking cost a fortune to run and never tell the correct time.
Tick tock article 50
O/T
Verdict on Piers Doughty Brown & Sean Clerkin on Breach of the piece charges when they invaded the Labour offices & at the Royal concert halls.
Piers D Brown not prover in respect of charge 1. Not guilty in respect of charge 2.
Sean Clerkin guilty on charge 1, guilty on charge 2 = £1000.
Maybe this will curtail Clerkins antics & his embarrassment to the Yes Movement,we can only but hope.
If you really agree with this, then you should be campaigning for open borders, world government and the abolition of the nations in favour of global citizenship. Otherwise, you are just somewhere on the ‘sharp line of distinction’ spectrum yourself.
Aye, Wee Wullie actually provided an assist at FMQ today, which Nicola duly put in the back of the Tory net. Pity Labour were so muzzled today – have they been telt to keep it zipped? The silence on the Labour seats when the foreigner-hating tories were deservedly being ripped was deafening. The mask of the nastiest Tory party slipped off completely this week, and all Kezia could do was carp on about train times.
Mike @ 1.35
I don’t think it’s a contradiction Mike.
I would call it poetic justice.
English law can’t have it both ways.
Soverenty ( Not the Monarch )either can’t be given up or it can.
If they are going to claim ours is or has gone for ANY reason then the risk the notion that theirs isn’t able to be given up too.
Delighted @PaulWheelhouse has announced that Underground Coal Gasification, #UCG, will have no place in Scotland
https://twitter.com/TommySheppard/status/784027361658474496?lang=en-gb
Well had a wee look in at our parliament what fun Eh , , The permanent scowl on crabits face would put anyone off their dinner be warned if watching later best to sit down, Ruth the mooth isn’t very clever is she, every single question left an open goal, She seems to think Nicola Sturgeon has to fix everything Ruth’s party has f/kd up, and says this with the usual scowl and sneering baw face .
Then up pops Kezia oh f/ck why does she bother, nothing about the Iceberg on the horizon, nothing about the Mad hatters tea party that is the Tory party , Nope Kezias main worry is the Trains while it might be an inconvenience for a lot of people right now improvements are and will be made Happy now dear ? . It’s like being on a sinking lifeboat and the crew are discussing the paint finish, I wonder if the Tory party and Labour have this secret pact where they only go for the SNP and leave eachother alone this probably includes the other two Unionist parties.
The man from Del Monte
Welcome friend, but you talking confused nonsense. More Orange juice in your vodka required.
There is nothing confused about the SG stance. We welcome those that choose Scotland, and consider it a honour.
How does world govt work on your planet then?
You can have small countries with decision making taken in that country, whilst playing a role on the world stage.
What is wrong with that, when it works for so many?
Peter McCulloch says at 1:24 pm
and
galamcennalath says at 1:35 pm
Unfortunately I have to concur.
It is recorded that during WWII the Koreans (conquered in 1910 and considered a Japanese colony until 1945) and the Taiwanese (became a dependency in 1895 until 1945) were harsher POW/Concentration Camp guards than their Japanese conquerors.
Unfortunately this is the mindset I believe permeates the culture of the lick-spittle BLiS MSPs/MP at present.
They try to be a bigger bunch of b**tards to curry favour with their perceived betters/overlords.
If any true Labour Politicians existed in Scotland today they would have crossed the chamber when it became obvious their ‘Branch Manager’ wasn’t going to speak out loudly and publicly at the abhorrence of the rhetoric of the Tories over the past few days, and then loudly explained why they’d just done so.
The Unionist MSM could not have ignored such a gesture.
Statement on UCG
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Underground-coal-gasification-blocked-2c9f.aspx
Thanks for the historical explanation Mr Peffers. I couldn’t bring myself to watch N. Oliver’s programme as I could guess exactly what he was up to with the subject matter. Noting the mention by Robert Kerr’s drinking companion, this unsubtle attempt at besmirching our modern civic nationalism seems to have gained some traction in the yooniverse.
@Nana
It’s brilliant news. Marie Montinaro will be ecstatic, having worked hard for years, getting groups motivated etc.
SNP showing their intelligent strategy again. Draw the sharp distinction with us and WM, and reiterate the consultation on on shore fracking, whilst WM override local decisions in Lancashire.
In a few months, England will be overrun with Energy companies stepping forward to rip up and poison the country.
I have never been so glad to have the good fortune to live in Scotland.
I feel guilty to say, I don’t think I will be visiting England in the near future. I am very fond of Northumbria and the beaches.
I may try for a weekend before Brexit proper, but my concerns are that the country will now go downhill environmentally over the years.
Kezia Dugdale did make a very strong statement yesterday, you can see it on her website but it was reported in some places. The right wing media as well as doing the SNP down and building the Tories up, is also set on destroying the Labour party in Scotland, as that might help the right wing Tories in Scotland, so it doesn’t report them properly either. I don’t think we should support that right wing media.
http://archive.is/m9YNy
“Ruth Davidson’s speech shows that she was clearly embarrassed by the comments from her colleagues, but was still prepared to be the warm-up act for Theresa May.
She is the face of a Conservative Party that is rotten to its core – a xenophobic and toxic party. This week’s conference has proved that we need a strong Labour Party to fight the Tories’ toxic plans and deliver real change for the people of the Scotland and the UK.”
She’s a bit daft though, she should have joined in today. My guess is she’s trying to take back opposition from the Tories, and was just single-minded about that – rail in this case.
Note by the way in that “She is the face …”, is ambiguous, it could mean May – or Davidson. Perhaps that’s what Dugdale wanted, ambiguity.
UKIP and the Tories. They’ll be wearing brown shirts next.
With Scottish Labour having been knocked into third place at Holyrood, they can either go further down, being beaten by the Greens, or back up, when it comes to the council elections and after.
If Labour were able to retake the Conservative vote in those elections, they could claim to be “on their way back”. So it’s likely that’s what they’ll concentrate on over the next few months, trying to show that they are the real opposition to the SNP. But they won’t achieve that just by slagging off the SNP which is what Davidson and the Tories are now doing.
A lot depends on whether they have any cool heads. And how that affects Indy, I have little idea, except that it’s almost certain Davidson and the Tories will be at the front of the NO campaign rather than Labour this time. And I’m not convinced the LibDems will be shoulder to shoulder with a “toxic xenophobic” party such as the Tories are.
Do Labour want to make the same mistake they made in Indy ref 1 and join the Tories? Well, do they?
@Mike says: 6 October, 2016 at 1:35 pm:
” … I see a contradiction here. As Scots would these delegates no be subject to Scots law rather than English law?
If so then clearly they would not be subject to the part of English law which states they cannot give up their Kingdoms sovereignty”.
I see what you are getting at, Mike, but it isn’t quite right.
The Westminster Establishment, since even Roman times, has always thought that they owned the entire British Isles. That was the basis of all the Wars of Independence even against the Romans. The Southerons never did make their claims stick. Even the Normans, who supplanted their Germanic kin as Kings of England did not take Scotland by battles and war. For example The Bruse family gained power in Scotland by intermarriage. This of his mother :-
That Robert de Bruc was King Robert’s father.
Anyway, the point is that the English rulers have always laid claim to all of Britain and always assumed they were. The legal point is that the Scots had established their legal right to independence from everyone but specifically the English between 1320 and the Treaty of Union in1706/7.
A period of 387 years of internationally recognised independence, This in spite of the wars of independence. The English plot to gain Scotland by marriage backfired when James VI inherited the English crown and was unable to establish a United Kingdom but that meant he was sovereign in the Kingdom of England but not in Scotland.
Then the English had their rebellion against their sovereign King, James II of England, and deposed him but they had dredged up the legal precedence of, “A sovereign cannot give up the sovereignty of the Kingdom but can only abdicate it to the next in line”. That meant two things. The Monarchy in England cannot give away the sovereignty to anyone. It also meant the people of Scotland cannot give away the sovereignty of Scotland.
The result was that instead of just making England, (the three country kingdom), a republic they invited King Billy & Queen Mary to take the English throne but only if they delegated their sovereignty to the parliament. The effect of that was to leave the royal person still sovereign and thus legally own everything including their subjects.
The result of that Glorious Revolution was to kick off what they still claim was The Jacobite Rebellion. But the Scots were still an independent kingdom in 1688 and so could not rebel against a foreign king – even although the two crowns had landed on the same he\ad of James I & VI. Now bear in mind they were still fighting that Jacobite UPRISING in 1745, almost 40 years after the claimed United Kingdom Treaty was signed.
The thing about that treaty was that they could not reconcile the two legal systems because of those sovereignty issues and those issues have never yet been solved.
So the legal facts are that when the legally sovereign people of Scotland vote for a member of parliament, whether it be Scottish, United Kingdom or European, they are legally delegating that person to exercise the people’s sovereignty but the people of England, Wales and N. Ireland are choosing someone to be delegated to exercise the Queen of England’s sovereignty because the Queen has no sovereignty over Scotland and, of course, because the English kingdom is a constitutional monarchy, they are choosing a delegate to exercise the Queen’s sovereignty.
Re Brexit negotiations.
After Birmingham, it is difficult to imagine the talks between the EU and the UK Government going smoothly. Perhaps the Tory Cabinet realise this and so have decided to keep negotiations short and sweet with a hard Brexit. Then again, with a long tradition of treachery behind it, perhaps not.
However, it may well be the case, that the attitude of the Tory government will harden as a result of its meetings with the EU over Brexit, to then turn to the Scotland question with an even firmer resolve to prevent Independence.
By that time of course, Article 50 will have been triggered, the fan will be spinning and the shit will be flying. Bad news will be coming at us from every corner of the global economy and there will be few, if any, in England, able to keep a level head. The Fraser of Allander report, just published, gives a flavour of what is to come.
What is for sure is that we are faced with six months of varying degrees of uncertainty, none more so than among our immigrant population. It is 38 years since Jim Callaghan’s Winter of Discontent in 78/79 – perhaps we’re due another one.
@heedtracker
‘re your post from Guy Verhofstadt Facebook
Isn’t this a very encouraging part
“the outside world watches this latest statement with worry and disbelief. I want to be clear: the EU will defend the fundamental rights of its citizens, wherever they are.” is this a message for Scotland, is he letting us know we have friends who will have our back?
Luigi says at 2:48 pm
Dugdale is probably waiting on instruction from London (as televised comment on xenophobia must not be devolved to he autonomous BLiS)
yesindyref2 says at 3:06 pm
“Kezia Dugdale did make a very strong statement yesterday”.
Aye, that’s the comment I missed before posting last nights comment re: Labour, the Internationalists, Trades Unionists and Spain 1936-1939.
We live in a video age (for better or worse) so no recorded comment is a massive mistake (perhaps her Comms guy, ex Daily Heil) advised her to say nowt?
By the way has Corbyn made a statement on the content and tone of the Tory Conference Speeches yet.
TODAY. First Minister’s Questions
Scottish Parliament TV.
Now Archived:-
http://tinyurl.com/z439kja
Cherry at 3:26 pm
That’s the way I see heedtrackers post from Guy Verhofstadts Facebook.
Read between the lines.
The World is watching, especially Europe who suffered more and have longer memories especially when it comes to Post WW1, Weimar, The Rise of Fascism, WWII, The Marshall Plan and reconstruction.
If the Europeans and their politicians didn’t understand the difference between Scotland and rUK during IndyRef1 there is no doubt they will when IndyRef2 comes round.
@Valerie
I got an email from the group fighting the fracking earlier. Part of the message below, I don’t think they are giving up and rightly so.
Thank goodness we have the snp in government.
Hanna Thomas, SumOfUs.org
Nana,
We’ve just heard that big fracking firm Cuadrilla has been given the green light to frack Lancashire, even though the county council said no.
Fracking could begin as early as next year.
This is a major step up in fracking in the UK: four wells have been approved compared to the single one in North Yorkshire earlier this year.
We have a chance to turn back the tide. In less than a week’s time, the biggest backers of fracking will converge in Manchester to discuss how they’ll tear up our beautiful, peaceful countryside.
Fracking firms like Cuadrilla are taking advantage of Brexit and plotting huge fracking plans.
Mr Peffers is quite right to draw attention to the misuse of the term Jacobite Rebellion when it was really an uprising against the imposition of a foreign line of kings over our own, the Stuarts. This is why Lowland, Protestant, non-Gaelic speaking Scots could also support the cause, something which is played down for obvious reasons by “conventional” historians who wish to represent it as a doomed, romantic Highland venture.
The same could be said of the term The Wars of Independence, which implies that we fought to gain our independence in the 14th century, when in fact Scotland and its antecedent kingdoms had never been conquered by the Romans or the English. What we were doing under Wallace and Bruce was resisting annexation by the two ghastly Edwards.
It’s a clever Yoon tactic to falsely shorten our independent existence by about a thousand years: not a bad trick if you can get away with it.
As for Gaelic coming here from Ireland, here’s a thought:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm
The author has not changed his views since 2000: he was king enough to reply to my query quite recently.
“Kind” not “king”.
100 lines.
Yes Cherry its true if i could i would vote for big Guy.
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/746302049927708672
Chief negotiator for the EU parliament after article 50 is signed 🙂
Cherry says:
6 October, 2016 at 3:26 pm
@heedtracker
They must be watching the right in all EU countries very closely, if only because the right have so radically controlled the UK. Obviously they also have to know how to form policy to deal with the right in the UK and ofcourse the tory BBC led media is extremely powerful here. Hard core conservative UK must have a huge influence on the EU’s right wing loveliness of joy and peace and could bring it all crashing down.
Lets face it, destroying the EU is one of the creepier tory undercurrents of UKOK political discourse across the board and has been for decades now, BBC to Press and Journal.
Their biggest worry could be that the UK’s right are a perpetual electoral minority, or it bloody should be.
http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-in-uk-3012274-Oct2016/
@manandboy
Yes, there’s a lot of uncertainty still, before it reaches the climax. But one extra uncertainty to consider is this. The UK is going Brexit, alone against the world, does it really want to include an at least 50% reluctant Scotland, fighting it every inch of its toxic xenophobic way?
I wouldn’t if, perish the thought, I was Theresa May.
Verhofstadt. I’d say his statement includes Scotland, but is for the EU citizens in England and the rest of the UK – and those in Scotland as well as us. But, it could give the EU all the excuse it needs to keep us in that “transitional holding pen”, even to the extent of having us there after a YES vote but before even our Independence is worked out with the rUK Government, as long as some of the terms were agreed to allow us to have a phsyical and perhaps fiscal border with the the rUK after Brexit but before Indy. And it could be done as part of the Brexit negotiations.
@Tinto Chiel
My eldest son is doing his postgrad in Aberdeen at present, part of which covers the wars of Independence. So interesting and I’m learning a lot through our conversations.
Now about those lines, stay behind after class
@Jockanese Wind Talker
I think Corbyn said something, not a lot but something!
Nana, it wisnae me and onnyhow Wee Jeannie wis daein’ tae! 😉
Yes, The Wars of Resistance (trade mark) are fascinating. The Establishment have been up to their tricks for a very long time, I’m afraid.
And, on another topic, thank God Maggie Dismay doesn’t control fracking licences in Scotland.
Horizontal fracking will be a disaster ablow the dyke.
@ Nana says at 2:59 pm …. ”Statement on UCG.”
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Underground-coal-gasification-blocked-2c9f.aspx
Brilliant news Nana especially on the day that we see the Unelected Theresa May’s Undemocratic Tory Party, elected on 36% of the UK vote, overrule the democratic decision taken by cross party committee members on Lancashire Council not to frack.
No doubt ‘short’ Scottish cringer Ruth Davidson and her Big T (hug) boss, who’s physically and metaphorically speaking bigger than her, will be absolutely raging. Raging that the SNP are blocking the ability of the ‘thieving’ Tories to ‘vandalise’ Scotland and rip us off.
That of course could change if we don’t get our Independence. Certain Tories whom it would seem have been beavering away in the background formulating their ‘to do’ list, when they get into power, will have been working their way through EVERY area devolved to Scotland with a mind to ‘taking over’; that is if they leave us with a Parliament at all.
”A future British government could still dissolve the Scottish Parliament despite a cross-party agreement that it should be “made permanent”, according to the chair of the Smith Commission.
Lord Smith of Kelvin, chosen by the government to lead discussions on Scottish devolution, admitted that “nothing is permanent” in UK law.” ….
Smith added: “But you are absolutely right, nothing is permanent because future governments, democratically elected, can change those things. It will be described as permanent in UK law, UK law which of course can be CHANGED.”
This is the Martin Niemoller poem.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me – See more at: http://hmd.org.uk/resources/poetry/first-they-came-pastor-martin-niemoller#sthash.wtcEumMA.dpuf
Tinto Chiel @ 3.41
“”…when it was really an uprising against the imposition of a foreign line of kings over our own, the Stuarts.””
George the First was foreign born but he was a Stuart on his mother’s side. George was a great-grandson of James VI and I.
His mother Sophia was heiress presumptive to Queen Anne but died just a few months before Anne.
Therefore, despite his remoteness in the line of succession, it was George’s Stuart connection, and his Protestantism, the propelled him to the head of the queue. It does however mean that all the Monarchs who have sat on the throne from James VI and I have been descendants of Mary, Queen of Scots.
How’d that for a last laugh?
‘Strictly’ Davidson could not distinguish between Coal Gas Extraction and Fracking today at FMQ, as she berated our FM for ignoring the research findings of 2012 into the issue. Was she lobbying for her friends?
She had the , ‘unmitigated gall’ ,used to be the buzz phrase, to demand what mitigating measures the Scottish Government would introduce when up to 80,000 Scots workers lose their jobs because of her party’s Brexit suicide.
The woman is a psychopath!
She was no longer the inanely grinning chubby cheeked wee darling ‘retainer’ of the Home Counties set now. She was a disgrace, admitting that she was against listing furriners, and sending EU nationals back home, but…
She is an unprincipled chancer, who would support any extreme just to be in power and keep coining in our tax dollars in wages for nothing.
Dugdale was more concerned about trains running on time and hiked fares than lambasting Strictly’s fascist government.
Labour demanded answers from the FM on the burst mains in Edinburgh.
Patrick Harvie stayed silent, and left it to that carrot haired lad, whose name escapes, to attack the Blue Fascists.
Rennie spoke, but I’ve forgotten what he said.
Tavish the Gentleman farmer, fought the good fight for the crofters.
45 minutes is way too long, and many of the questions were local councillor issues.
I’m trying to imagine May being taken to task during PMQ about burst drains in Tooting.
PO Ken, is this a deliberate attempt to reduce Holyrood to ‘parish cooncil’ status?
After all, you vet these FM questions.
Davidson and Dugdale, the Double D of Unionist Far Right Wing Politics Up Here.
A disgrace.
Where was Two Jobs WATP Professor Tomkins? Couldn’t spot him anywhere today.
The Queen’s Eleven Murdo Fraser missed his question. Was he out checking to see if Scots ‘wreckers’ were vandalising the toilets again?
As a 70 year old lifelong nationalist I just love to hear about scotlands actual history and not the colonial drivel we were fed at school by the great white Queens agents.
For this there are many people on wings that I am greatful to, an old man is finding out in his dotage the truth about his own beloved country and people. Thanks especially Robert, Nana, tinto et al sorry if I can’t rhyme you all off, you are respected and appreciated.
O that Scots kids can be taught with pride their own history. Without the Anglo interference AND MANIPULATION.
Hark the Herald’s take.
Scottish Government announces ban on underground coal classification
https://archive.is/OC5yh
UKip’s Steven Woolfe recovering in hospital after meeting altercation
https://archive.is/ALLkU
Having watched FM QT, it was pretty obvious Ruthie was trying to sit on both sides of the fence over her partys conference. She must of felt great when she was getting all the praise from her party and the MSM during her conference displays.
But reality stepped in today and boy did she look uncomfortable, she knew all the crap could not be dodged, well she better get used to it, because that is going to be the norm from now on. (recommend savlon for the wire burns on her butt), (double strength).
It is not often if ever I have seen Nicola being a bittie off against the labour leader (Kezia), it was nothing to do with Kezia herself it was the subject. I don’t think Nicola or anyone else could believe that this week after the tory xenophobic conference the main Labour subject was train times.
It was like we had passed into another universe for a couple of minutes, with Kezia trying to convince everyone the world revolved around her false indignation about train times.
Basically it was a cowards way out of not taking on the Tories in front of everyone else, shame on Labour.
Time for labour and the other parties to decide :-
either the Tories or Scotland.
My personal clusterfudge of yoonery is predictably mental today. Hate for er, no hate. Only in yoon culture. To be fair, silly old Dunc’s getting more hysterical by the day, or at least since JC win hands down.
Duncan Hothersall Retweeted
Peter Matthews ?@urbaneprofessor 6h6 hours ago
*sigh* I’m h8ing Scotland again, seeing all these “we’re Scottish so we’re not anti-immigrant or racist” comments
13 retweets 22 likes
Strange times perhaps but not a surprise to those who’ve been paying attention, as this has been the UKOK direction of travel for some time now. Here’s a re=post from during the first indyref.
http://nationalismproject.blogspot.co.uk/
So the Tories will reach out to seek new trade deals, while suspecting that professional immigrants from those same countries are less than equal under law than home grown workers.
If all nations acted like this we’d have fascist splinter groups everywhere, mini-hitler criminals reacting with violence towards anyone who doesn’t fit their feudal idealism. You know… Like bakers (sorry real bakers) against foreigners.
Whin diz, yoan reservation-phase git stertit? Ah luk furrit, tae ma bare-grun spread.
Haw, Rock in heedtracker, whit aboot thoan National’s furrit-page photae, thurr day. Iz yoan, guid anuff fur ye?
@davysays 4:44pm
Totally agree Davy well said. Kez could have done with running a brush through her locks. Perhaps she was to busy trying to learn her lines. Ruth was very subdued, easy to be pure gallous in front of your pals, then you’ve got to meet the real world, without your ventriloquist. Sh*t!
Random thoughts.
The SNP have a problem with perception among many Europeans presently living and working in Scotland. Just spoke with a couple of Polish folks who thought the SNP were the Scottish equivalent (branch) of the BNP. That erroneous perception needs to be addressed before InyRef#2 when we will need every European voter here in Scotland to side with us.
Some Germans also thought we were a pretty racist country because a lot of our don’t allow ‘Colours’. All about perception.
Not saying Scotland is perfect – of course it’s not. But we could help clear up some misconception by our Euro friends. Perhaps the SNP should become the SNC (Scottish National Congress).
Anyway – away back to sleep.
@ dhothersall
Won’t you support the people of Scotland’s “Right to Development”, rather than far-right English nationalism?
http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf
“because a lot of our PUBS don’t allow ‘Colours’.”
Worth reading.
http://derekbateman.scot/2016/10/05/degrees-of-estrangement/#comment-102134
UKIP are now battering each other.
Taxpayers are picking up the bill.
Luigi at 11.32
Exactly as Better Together would like us to think. We will never get a better chance to go for IndyRef2 than right now.
Sitting at around 50/50 without even starting a campaign!
The significant fact is that the battlefield has reversed.
In 2010 we had around 30% for indy,50% against indy and 20% don’t know
In 2016 we have around 50% for indy,about 30% against indy and 20% don’t know
FM setting aboot them. 🙂
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-ill-support-firms-refuse-publish-lists-foreign-workers/
O/T
You really have to wonder who voted for a sycophantic FUCKWIT like Murdo Fraser.
I’m thinking about what yesindyref2 says, that May might want to cut loose a struggling Scotland….
What if the Great Repeal, repeals the Act of Union? Is that possible, or me wishing?
I’m sure Peat Worried knows this, but how does the Great Repeal work, do they set a date to revert to before our EU involvement?
On the subject of Ruth. Good to see her Tory face tripping her at FMQs. Gas put at a peep. Really hope she leads the No campaign.
Alex Massie is appearing at a theatre near you with his new amazing psychic ablity show called
“I know what you’re thinking”
The amazing Alex will gaze into his own mind and inform us of what’s in ours
The Amazing Alex has performed these feats of mind boggling psychicness on many occasions and on each of these occasions unfortunately so far for him have proved unsuccessful (rivers of blood) granted he did nick that idea
Undeterred by failure in his endeavours the Amazing Alex will prove beyond the shadow of doubt that the mind reading of the SNP is a task, one which he has set himself, that must be fulfilled so that the world may know Anti Englishness is the main driver of all SNP minded people, Yea even those who are in fact English or have English families are filled with hatred towards their own Mothers and Fathers Cousins and Grandparents alike
Because First Minister Sturgeon has deemed it so to be, as she herself hates her own Northumbrian Granny
So let it be written so let it be done
call me dave says:
6 October, 2016 at 4:43 pm
“”Hark the Herald’s take.
UKip’s Steven Woolfe recovering in hospital after meeting altercation
https://archive.is/ALLkU“”
And there was me thinking Wolfe net a punch! Don’t you just love the Herald’s way with words.
Ken500, I don’t have a problem with UKIP battering each other… Its just a shame they didn’t get on it sooner.
@Valerie
The Great Repeal Act will come into effect at precisely the same moment Brexit comes into effect, perhaps exactly 2 years after Article 50 is invoked officially.
Pappadox
Like you I enjoy the historical posts on Wings.
If you want a great and very readable Scottish History, “The Lion in the North” by John Prebble is about the best.
You can get it on Amazon I paperback from one penny plus postage. You won’t get a better bargain anwhere.
Will Steven Woolf ever truly recover from being punched by someone called Mike Hookem.
and then having to go to a foreign hospital and be treated by foreign doctors.
The shame! The shame!
OT – well what isn’t by now!
I’m sick and tired of seeing Unionists talking about the £48.5 billion Scotland exports to the rUK, what about what the rUK exports to us?
——————
Total 2015: Exports to rUK £45.884 bn, imports from rUK £51.255 bn
Q1 2016: £11.355 bn to rUK, £12.787 bn from rUK.
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0050/00504651.pdf
Table G Contd – page 15.
From memory Scotland represents around 10% of rUK exports.
———————–
So it’s hardly one-sided.
*rant*
It took me about 20 minutes to find that, using different variations of keywords, looking at reports “key facts”, “executive summaries” nothing, nihil, nada, zip, get lost. I had to burrow into data tables to find that out. It really hacks me off man.
When will the Scottish Government and the SNP get their acts together and PUBLISH and HIGHLIGHT the flaming information we need to fight Indy Ref 2, instead of burrying it deep inside long reports?
Legally, can Holyrood “block” Brexit?
http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/can-holyrood-block-brexit.html
When do we get the Black & White Minstrel Show back on TV?
I don’t think Guy Versterhofstadt’s words were for Scotland, more for the near 3 million EU citizens who live in England and who may be anxious for the first time for their safety. They will have relatives all over Europe who will have been writing to their MEPs. A bit like Russia warning Ukraine not to persecute Crimeans, though I dont know whose army the EU is going to call on if it gets that far.
Liked this gently cynical opinion piece on Brexit and the party conferences.
http://archive.is/Rn7t6
UK = Ukraine!
Mr Peffers
Will you please put a book/blog together of all your ruminations for they are vital in helping give historical context to our continuing struggles especially given the pseudo-historical dross our heads have been, and continue to be being, gallously filled up with lies as one would chuck ingredients into a cement mixer thereafter to pour out and fix like a thick wa’ in the enquiring heid in order to cement the enquiring mind in perpetual “what the fuck?” stasis – if of that level of enquiry – and the following generations, in perpetual concrete, debilitating guff.
I asked this of you at least once before, but nothing has come of my request.
Can the team here get you organised here, please?
Perhaps a collection of all the finest posts on the Rev’s site (and there are almost countless numbers of them) to conjointly tickle the palate with multiple perspectives and assisted by and connected to Wings’s sensational primers?
Please, Robert, publish (and MacCart et al, too, in a joint New Enlightenment exercise not just to cuff the Yoons but to reach out globally again to aye folk, regardless).
Folk do thirst for genuine enquiry despite the knuckle-dragging trolls trying to stack the deck and pervert genuine dialectical discussion and enquiry.
Can you please do this, Robert?
Legerwood @4.16: good point. If you wanted to spin it positively, you could call the Royal Line “Stuart Lite” (TM) I suppose 😉 .
Papadox @4.42: worry ye not, my friend. The Curriculum for Excellence has its faults, but Scottish history is much better taught now in both primary and secondary.
I know some yawn and think our history is dry and quite irrelevant to our present struggles but it’s only when you start digging for yourself you realise how we’ve been shafted for centuries and our history misrepresented.
It’s an old struggle we are simply maintaining but we’re very close to our goal. And our only weapon will be a stubby wee pencil.
@ Nana 5.54:
Ergo, the ONLY way to have any control over Brexit is full blown Indy. Sooner the better.
Robert Peffers in the wee sma’ hours after I ducked out,
Robert, your extensive answer amplifies my point, really. The whole thing is a potential disputatious legalistic minefield with all sorts of interesting constitutional implications. Which opponents of indy would exploit to the maximum to try to forestall a referendum rather than face the people honestly.
Agreement with UK Gov may or may not be constitutionally necessary, I’m not commenting on that. (Ultimately not, whatever the rights, if you have sufficient popular support.) It’s just that an agreement to put that aside saves an immense amount of bother. That’s all I’m saying.
(There’s also the potential difficulty of other countries being willing or not to recognise Scottish independence if obtained in the midst of a controversy of rights. But again any such doubt would wither away in the face of a clear demonstration of popular support.)
On Topic
With all this Tory xenophobia going on,I tried to take some time to reflect,put on a incisive post,to express my disgust,but to quote The Ramones ‘My Brain is Upside Down’,with it all.
Is it national poetry day or something ? no matter,try this.
Awaits Hammers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI
O/T
Reported that Jeremy Corbyn has triggered a Labour Party reshuffle after sacking chief whip of six years Rosie Winterton. She will be replaced by Nick Brown who Govt. Chief Whip from October 2008 to May 2010.
I remember reading about Anglian Water winning a contract or some such with the ScotGov to supply drinking water to Scotland, isn’t there a “danger to public health” issue looming on the horizon now the tollies are pressing ahead with fracking in England?
Water unfit for human consumption would make for breach of contract, no?
Robert Peffers,
If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?
G4jeepers 7.14
http://wingsoverscotland.com/thicker-than-water/
I did not know before commenting on a Guardian Cif thread today that the UK has uncontrolled immigration. Who knew? Wow we really are in the shit now. This is getting scary.
Haw, Rock in heedtracker, whit aboot thoan National’s furrit-page photae, thurr day. Iz yoan, guid anuff fur ye?
No. Its too much, too out there, too extreme. I want a main stream looking paper that looks the Times and Press and Journal. Or, normalise progressive liberal issues in general. Progressive liberalism is not the outsider, its not radical, its not hysterical and its not the different other. But good luck to them all the same.
Robert Peffers. You really are a wee gem!
I have copied so much of your comments into my notes that I have, almost, a wee history book.
Thank you so much.
paradox re books on Scots history.,may I suggest McBeth by Peter Beresford Ellis out of print but you can get it on Abe books or fleabay. Berresford Ellis is an English Author who writes mainly on Celtic History and all his books are worth a read. Celt and Saxon gives a good understanding of thevAnglo Saxon invasion of Briton. Probably my favourite book of all time is Highland Warrior (alistair McColla and the highland problem in the seventeenth century) by D Stevenson
A fascinating account of the so called English CIVIL war in Scotland.
McColla was argueably Scotland’s greatest soldier but he has been erased from What little history we are told about, we have all heard of the great Montrose, however it was McColla and his men that won all Montroses famous victories. It was also one of McColla’s men who died after catching the clap from the bonnie lass o fyvie (or that’s what I was one told)
@ Legerwood 16:16
” It does however mean that all the Monarchs who have sat on the throne from James VI and I have been descendants of Mary, Queen of Scots.
How’d that for a last laugh?”
They’re also all descendents of Henry VII too.
@Heed
LOL, there’s no making you happy!
In all fairness the “toxic xenophobia” as described by Dugdale of Labour, and referred to by Rennie of the LibDems is a biggie, and can provide the tipping point once it’s had time to sink in to the general public. I’m looking forward, hopefully, to the next opinion poll. But it had to be out there in everyone’s faces.
Oh, and it’s all helped by apparently there may be defections from UKIP – to the Toxic Xenophobic Tories. Well, who’d have not expected that one?
yesindyref2 says:
6 October, 2016 at 8:02 pm
@Heed
LOL, there’s no making you happy!
Point is though, you dont have to be studenty rad to make a real impact. We’re lied to in Scotland on a colossal scale by the print media especially. The Times front page yesterday explains May is for the workers. That shyst is all over the tv and radio but its done calmly and matter of factually.
Daily Heil front page yesterday explained how Brexit would give Scotland new powers. Where have we all heard that historic UKOK fraud before. Rancid The Graun’s actually the worst of the whole shyst.
http://archive.is/fs6kt
Libby Carrell’s one of the most experienced UKOK con artists around but above all, look at how normal his fraud really is. What’s likely is that the Herald wouldn’t allow anything that might compete with their mainstream grot, so they took a punt. Its all grist to the mill though.
Nicola writes
http://indyref2.scot/the-tory-conference-has-shown-us-who-the-divisive-nasty-nationalists-are?
heedtracker says:
“May is for the workers”
Thing is, when you are the right wing party of the better off, there is no pretence. Cameron and Osborne didn’t give a rat’s arse about ordinary people.a
However when you switch focus to move towards fascism, misguided working class voters will support you. Extreme right wing politics can be beguilingly simplistic. It was always the way that some ordinary people will follow the extreme right.
Certainly looks like the Tories are making a pitch for that ‘niche’.
Rock @ 7.19
While I’m sure Robert will be along to answer your question properly the simplest answer is yes it would be illegal.
Mainly for three reasons.
1
Holyrood sits as a government that deal’s with a package of powers not All of them that’s why they are always sayin ,this is or isn’t within our competency.
2
Holyrood has no claim at the moment to make such a law be because the current elected government haven’t said “elect us to government and we will strike down the Treaty of the Union.
3
MOST importantly our current Soverenty is given to the Westminster MP’S at the General election and they are the only ones who could do anything like that, and have any sort of legal right to do so.
Just give them a reason!
Hope that helps
@ Lenny, Aladair Mhic Cholla Ghasda (The Highland Warrior himself) sung by Karen Matheson & Capercaillie.
youtube.com/watch?v=37rqwWjwZtY hope this works.
Also worth a read is David Ross’s “Scotland, History of a Nation,”
Michael Fry, a former Tory that repenteth, has an excellent piece in today’s National.
galamcennalath says:
6 October, 2016 at 8:38 pm
heedtracker says:
“May is for the workers”
Well its certainly, lets say, interesting to watch our tory BBC led media propaganda machine in action this week, trying to dupe us into to thinking the tory freak show suddenly loves the plebs and hates the sneering elite, they are now called.
C4 teatime news tonight was totally at it with their up the workers, say the tories shysters and a big London art show proved this apparently. Minted art buyers are to blame for UKIP and English xenophobes.
Carrell’s latest thing in the Graun and how much devo’s coming to Scotland, if we shut up and Brexit like loyal proud Scotbuts, is really sneaky creepy though. This the latest fraud from a whole print media that’s savaged any and all Scottish devo, for decades too and all of a sudden rancid thinks devolution is a really great thing for Scots.
From rancid The Grain says, 2014
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bellend4.jpg
to this appalling Graun fraud headline 2016,
“EU referendum and Brexit
Scotland could gain greater independence via Brexit, Holyrood told”
The most successful fraudsters are the ones that don’t look like fraudsters.
Oor Peatie has written a piece on the legal ‘niceties’ of the Great Repeal Act and Scotland’s position.
http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/can-holyrood-block-brexit.html
heed @ 20:27,
Yes, that article in The Groan really takes the biscuit. It’s classic British “divide and conquer” in operation, and it’s a shame that it can rely on those who should know better, in the SNP of all places, like Alex Neil, who apparently can still be suckered into it via Brexit.
It’s the same alas in The National, whose letters pages regularly feature people claiming to be supporters of indy who somehow would prefer to remain under London rule than be a fully sovereign nation which happens to still be in the EU. Jeez. Just who do they think their splitterism is really serving?
It’s a simple enough concept: independence first. Diversion is the last weapon of a desperate Union.
STV news seems to have bucked up tonight such as by showing Nicola getting into Davidson’s face about xenophobic Tory policies and 80,000 Brexit job losses.
I’m also sure that I heard Professor Roy, Director of the Fraser of Allander Institute, say that Scotland exports 40% of goods to the EU. That’s not the figure that Davidson and Mundell are constantly quoting. If I heard properly this totally diminishes the Brexit argument, as I’m sure that we don’t export the remaining 60% to rUK only.
…………..
English history has been stuffed down the Scot’s throats for centuries now. All part and parcel of the ‘too wee, poor and stupid’ brainwashing strategy.
Scotland’s Royal line is around 90 years older than the English Royal line. Not only that the English Royal line terminated with Henry V111’s three children all dying childless. The last being Elizabeth 1 who died on the 24th March 1603. In other words the English line died out over 400 years ago.
When Queen Anne (House of Stuart) died childless in 1714 this led to George 1 being crowned King. He was the great-grandson of James V1 of Scotland (James 1 of England). Great-grandson through his maternal line … mother Sophia … granny Elizabeth …. great, great granny Mary Queen of Scots .
http://www.britroyals.com/stuart.htm
Every Monarch from George’s 1, 11, 11, 1V, Edward 1V, Victoria to Queen Elizabeth are sitting on the throne due to their descendancy from Mary Queen of Scots and her ancestors.
The crowning of George 1 followed the by-passing of many Roman Catholics (1701 Act of Settlement that outlawed Catholic monarchs) who had a greater claim to the throne than he, of course. If the law banning Roman Catholics was ever to be repealed the Bavarian / Leichtenstein Royal Family could legally lay claim to being Scotland’s next rightful hereditary Royal Family.
Currently Duke Franz Herzog von Bayern of Bavaria has DIRECT lineage to the House of Stuart. Franz has never married and has no children. The heir presumptive is his brother Prince Max and in turn his eldest daughter Sophie, Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz,_Duke_of_Bavaria
It appears the Tories are now compiling lists of students ,post grads etc. I have seen a tweet from one of the Chief Administrators at the London School of Economics in which she has been informed that “expert ” advice will only now be taken from their School if the provider is a UK citizen.
Where will this stop ?
News just filtering in about Academic advisers to UK GUV just been told their services no longer required as they are not British citizens
Twitter @LSE Sara Hagenman
Excuse my spelling if I’ve got her name wrong
Robert J. Sutherland says:
6 October, 2016 at 9:02 pm
heed @ 20:27,
Yes, that article in The Groan really takes the biscuit.
A very big biscuit. Carrell of the Graun says Prof Alan Page “Scotland could gain greater independence via Brexit, Holyrood told”
This is what the old conman left out.
http://archive.is/ltKDc
Westminster could unilaterally axe devolved laws post-Brexit, expert warns
THOUSANDS of laws affecting devolved issues could be unilaterally changed or scrapped by Westminster as a consequence of Brexit, a leading legal expert has warned.
In a report to Holyrood’s European Committee, Professor Alan Page said the UK government would rely heavily on obscure secondary legislation to unpick EU laws after Brexit.
However, unlike reforms affecting Scotland based on UK Acts of Parliament, such changes would not require the consent – or even the knowledge – of MSPs”
And on it UKOK goes. That’s the great Tom Gordon too. For the balance, oor Severin does touch on this Westminster can scrap Holyrood lawmaking at anytime but you need to be a lert reader/vile sep to catch him.
Petra @ 9.07
That’s fascinating Petra,all the more so because I thought that the law that banned Catholics,was dumped at the same time as the Boys must inherit before girls one.
Although must admit didn’t pay much attention and,might only have picked that up from background chatter.
Are you sure it’s still there?
I’m sure it’s still in place Liz. In fact isn’t there some ban on any member of the Royal Family that marries a Roman Catholic ever being crowned? Someone may correct me on the latter point.
All kind of fits with the Westminster ‘way’.
The ban on marrying Catholics was removed at the same time as the boys first rule, but it wasn’t back dated. So if Prince George marries a Catholic it won’t effect his prospect of being crowned but the people who were already removed from the line of succession don’t get put back in.
Great getting the history lesson on here but the site is about independence and I am fucking raging at the moment in regards the FM questions.
Today labour and the Tories should have been left without a leg to stand on today. They both should have been torn to shreds today but in my opinion they got off Scot free. Think about the EU parliament after the EUref. The president of the EU challenging farage and why he was even there. Basically telling him to fuck off. And then the SNP MEP on his feet with an impassioned speech. Yes being in opposition is easier than in goverment but today’s FM was weak and completely missed the feeling of Scotland.
If an SNP member or msp even farts in the wrong direction they would have been torn apart by the likes of Davidson and her cronies. We’re talking racism here folks, hatered or people because of there birth place. In no uncertain terms should that have been poked at but not completely ripped apart. Do any on here really think if that was said by the SNP dugdale and such wouldn’t have been asking for someone’s head on the block?
I don’t get what’s going on as a tactic. Is it that only political poeple watch FM questions so bickering wouldn’t penetrate them and be viewed as childish?
Jackie bailie also pulled a fast one and knew exactly what she was doing. That evil slug of a women needs to look at her own house before hitting us with her pish. Pedophilia in her own party after a cllr has been arrested and awaiting trial. And don’t even get me started on her 2 sons who walk around Dumbarton like the mafia.
Things need to be stepped up.
O/T Neil findlay called a debate yesterday on the closure of Tax offices , during the debate he some how managed to introduce the cost of rail travel this was possibly a precursor to Labour’s travel quest today the only thing that was missing was planes , a bit of a tenuous link but anyway , he took great exception when it was pointed out his party were instrumental in the total lie that voting NO was the only way to save these jobs , well tough shit Neil a bit embarrassing being reminded of the pish your party with the tories and wee wullies party peddled this will be added to the missing ships that people are looking for that were going to be built only if the mugs voted NO , want us to list all the other lies Ref the “little black book”.
While you’re at it could you maybe have a word with your PCS members who are activly applying sanctions without question to scotlands job seekers are bonuses involved for their excellent work ?
Joan McAlpine was today talking about the repatriation of some of these powers and there seems to be legal diputes about where these powers go before repatriation
Her take is that the UK could sell the Fishing rights along with the 6000 square miles of North sea as a bargaining deal before Scotland gets up in the morning but she says there are legal mechanisms the Scottish Guv is going to use in conjunction with the EU to challenge the UK from doing this
Not sure what it all means but looks like our team are on the ball prepared for the usual UK betrayals and sneakyness
Why did Ruth the Mooth come back to the colonies when she was so well received by the colonial masters? Perchance there is some foul deeds to be done to the natives to prevent anymore vandalising or thievery against the great white queen, before the blood money is payed.
If you just looked over yer shoulder hen yeel see aw the miscreant dangerous misfits who think they are a better class of native.
I’ve just checked out the Act of Settlement reform. Looks as though a Monarch can now marry / be married to a Roman Catholic, however I can’t see anything to the effect that a Roman Catholic can be crowned Monarch, for example if Prince George decided to change his religion he’d be by-passed. If correct that’s interesting. What would they do if a reigning Monarch such as Charlie had a brainstorm and decided he wanted to become a Roman Catholic? That would set the cat amongst the Westminster pigeons.
“Why don’t we campaign for a united planet earth? ie, one big happy family.”
Same reason we don’t campaign for unicorns on spacehoppers.
@Kevin Evans
The FM always has to be mindful that everthing she says will later be edited to suit the agenda of the press, so what folk see and hear on their teatime Jackie Burd will be the FM losing it and made out to appear as if over nothing
How many times have you seen replays on the telly where you hear what the question from Davidson or Dugdale is but then the sound goes down while you’re seeing pictures but you’re told by say Brian Taylor or some other lackey what the FM said, but it’s not what she said it’s their interpretation and analysis, so they’re telling you what THEY say she said
just to raise a wry smile as we move into the dark night – enjoy! https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/10/06/post-brexit-top-secret-exclusive-government-link/
@ Kevin Edwards at 9:39pm …… ‘Jackie Baillie’s two sons.’
I never realised that she had two sons. Thought she only had one daughter?
@Breastplate says: 6 October, 2016 at 1:48 pm:
” … Are you saying Scotland can’t make a Declaration of Independence because they are already independent therefore no need.”
The short answer is NO, I’m not saying that.
It really is simple. The law of The Kingdom of England made the kingdom a, “Constitutional Monarchy”. A constitutional monarchy, contrary to popular belief, does NOT make the Monarch a mere figurehead.
It delegates those people voted into power by the people to use the monarchs, “Divine Right of Kings”, i.e. use the Monarch’s sovereignty while leaving the monarch still legally sovereign. You may note that it is, “Her Majesty’s Government”, “The Royal Mint”, Her Majesty’s Treasury”, and the Armed Forces are The Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and the Soldiers of the Queen.
In the law of that Kingdom of England the Monarch is legal owner of everything in the Kingdom of England, (that includes Wales & N. Ireland, it all belongs to Her Majesty. Even the people of that Kingdom are Her Majesty’s subjects.
That is what sovereignty is – originally the claim was that, by selection of birth, the royals were chosen by God to rule. In English law that has never changed. However, English law had ruled long before even what they still claim was, “The Union of the Crowns”, that, “A sovereign, just by being sovereign, could not give the kingdom’s sovereignty away”. You should understand that this was the law of England attempting to protect the Kingdom of England from falling into the hands of a foreign monarchy.
The European monarchies had all long before only married within their own royal families. To such an extent that genetic degradation became rife. Both physical and psychological defects were becoming common. (Just read your history for proof of that).
Their English Kingdom problems came into play in 1603 when James VI of Scotland inherited the crown of England, (which included Wales & Ireland0. This was a backfire to the English plans – the Marriage of convenience that begat King James had been intended to acquire the Kingdom of Scotland under the then law of England which was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, the plan being to own Scotland for that same law only applied to the male line.
So there was James I of England becoming the sovereign King of England but under Scots law he was King of Scots – not King of Scotland. His Scottish role was to be defender of the sovereign people of Scotland’s sovereignty. As declared, (and accepted internationally), by the Head of Christendom in 1320.
Who can blame James for packing up his Royal Court where he was not sovereign and flitting it to London where he was sovereign?
So there is the irreconcilable puzzle of the difference between English and Scottish Law.
In Scotland the Crowns job was to protect the sovereignty of the Sovereign people of Scotland but in England the Crown’s job was to wield supreme power. Except that they had had The Glorious Revolution and forced the crown to legally delegate their royal powers to the parliament.
Subsequently the law of England then enfranchised the common people which meant that the common people elected the parliament that originally had just been the English Aristocracy.
Thus the legal situation is the people choose who is to exercise the Royal Person’s Sovereignty while the common people are not actually legally sovereign.
So when we Scots elect anyone we actually give the elected person out legal sovereign powers but the English commoners elect them to exercise the Royal person’s sovereignty.
In theory it should amount to the same thing but it doesn’t in practice. We can clearly see that here in Scotland now because we have an SNP NATIONAL (Not a Nationalist), government. They are firmly committed to doing what is best for the people of Scotland and they are truly democratic. The delegated members at conference make the policy – not the elected to government members.
In England, (the Kingdom of), all main parties are committed to looking after only their own factions. For example the Tory party is for the rich and powerful and, laughably, so now are the Labour and LibDem Unionist parties.
Now, can anyone tell us when, and legally how, The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland legally acquired the sovereignty of Scotland? I’m certainly unable to find ant evidence that they ever did.
@petra (Edwards)
Maybe it’s not her sons but it’s family members – my friend from balloch has had the pleasure of seeing then around town not me – in all fairness she quoted “her 2 boys” I just assumed she meant her sons but I could be wrong. Maybe the term boys means 2 make family members and not sons.
G4jeepers at 7.14
Anglian Water does not supply water to Scotland. It has a contract to service the supply of water in Scotland, all of which is Scottish. The Scottish Government owns Scottish water.
Anglian Water won an open tender to get the contract. Scotland has a huge surplus of water and were UK affairs in sensible order we could supply huge amounts to parts of England which are very short of water. Water supply in England and Wales is privatised and no UK company owns any of England’s water.
Investment in water supply in England is now entirely inadequate. The Scottish Government is investing sensibly and continuously in good water supply in Scotland.
Kevin Evens @ 9.39
Us lot as usual just going where the conversation takes us.
Sorry pal you have a point!
All the shit the last few days has bent us all out of shape,and while some deal with it by going back to basics…so to speak (we’ve never discussed Nessi YET) I can see why you would get frustrated with it.
….. Probably so much so especially in this litigious world of ours you could be driven to say things that you might want to rethink a post or two later,my friend……
Given that IndyRef2 seems to be around the corner, should we be concerned about the possibility of postal vote manipulation, or will that be a tighter process this time round.
Mmm, from Lallands Peat this quite interesting mistype:
“So said Nicola Sturgeon’s Bexit minister”
Rev. What is it you’re not telling us? I’ve seen a Wings over Bath poster, though he / she appears to be a bit of a nutter, but is there any truth in this apparent rumour I’m starting along with LPW, that you’re exiting the ruK – and bringing Bath with you?
What terms are there, are you joining the Scottish Single Market? What will your currency be, have you negotiated any trade deals, who will pay your pension, will it be crowdfunded? So many questions!
This was supposed to be funny back then…
https://www.flashlyrics.com/lyrics/flanders-and-swann/a-song-of-patriotic-prejudice-05
… or was it?
Yesindyref2 @ 10.35
You are being facetious of course it’s obvious to everyone he is bringing THE BATH.
He is joining the single water system,while retaining the sovereign right to both hot and cold,demand and supply will be facilitated by the currency of power card/key market.Crowd involvement will only be required if Brexit removed from our universities the patient for drainage technology.
Hopefully that addresses you’re concerns.
While I have absolutely no authority to make statements on the Revs plans …..No animals were harmed typing this post.
And even now I am still making more sense than BBC Question Time.
Interesting to see that according to yougov, half of SNP supporters are supporting lists of forgiven workers
http://order-order.com/2016/10/06/voters-back-naming-shaming/
I wish people would spell my name correctly lol.
Liz g I don’t see what litigious about what I said. Most of the time I find it fascinating the facts Robert and others educate me on in regards to scottish history or the Scottish constitution but what needs to be challenged head on is RACISM.
I’m a migrant worker in Switzerland, which manages to peacefully survive with 1/4 non-Swiss population (2 million out of 8). In the cities that rate is significantly higher.
I struggle to think how I would feel if this kind of xenophobia came direct from the Swiss government or was a regular feature in the newspapers. How would I feel if fellow immigrants were being beaten up in the streets, maybe targeted because they spoke English or had an unusual accent? I’d probably think about leaving. I don’t think I’d be able to stay in such an atmosphere. I suppose that’s the point.
Recent events have just been too depressing to contemplate. I’m not there so I can only guess but reading about it gives me the feeling that a bleak mindset is developing and taking root in the UK, something we’ve not seen since the 70s and 80s. Really grim.
Dr Jim 9.15
Here’s a link to that twitter feed re the rejection of non-British academic advisers.
https://twitter.com/sarahagemann/status/784000018290270208
I’ll reserve judgement until more detail emerges.
Kevin Evans @ 11.09
Hopefully you’re name is ok on this post Hun.
It’s mostly spell check that makes us look stupid.
And if you’re like me a lack of punctuation education, makes it even worse.
I am not about to get into what could and couldn’t be litigious,cause as I am sure you know some people don’t like us straying off topic.
Also since I am definitely half educated, although not from a Tenimennt!!!!
I am in a place right now where I really can’t help you.
I can only caution and suggest you look again.
Robert,
The first members of the de Bruis family, albeit not close relatives to Robert de Bruis, were invited into Scotland along with many other Norman French even before the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The Norman French were considered the way forward out of the Dark ages at that time.
Also ‘German kin’ is a bit of a stretch because modern assessment puts the population of Normandy at no more than 10% Norse in origin at the time and the ‘Norman’ invasion of England included many artisans from all over France.
Our earliest substantial work in Scots, Barbour’s ‘The Bruce’ c 1375 has, as noted by Professor Duncan, many thousands of words of Parisian French origin, words not adopted into English until the advent of Chancery English and later by Caxton.
There were, no doubt, earlier works in Scots, but they were lost due to yet another Hitleresque trait of Psycho Eddie when he commanded that all the books in Scotland be burned.
People wondering about unilateral action for independence i.e. without Westminster consent, Catalonia is already on that path, and the plan is to beg for Madrid permission till the last minute, then if all fails, make a unilateral declaration of independence and pass simultaneously what I’ve seen called a Transitional Jurisprudence law (a bit like the Brexit omnibus disconnection law, I think, which says that all stuff not yet in Catalan law falls back on Spanish law), followed by a Referendum on Independence, hopefully endorsing the declaration. Set for September 2017 at the latest, decided in Parliament today.
Mark McNaught at Scottish Demos has this article: http://www.collectiuemma.cat/article/2490/mark-mcnaught-catalans-to-have-independence-referendum-in-2017-with-or-without-madrids-con
Also see Collectiu Emma for English language coverage of Catalan politics. None of us is sure what’s going on, but Madrid is now threatening to jail the speaker of the Catalan parliament (and hinting at the same for civil servants) for allowing parliamentary discussion of independence, forbidden by the Constitutional Court, and the ex-President and 2 ex-ministers are up for trial, as is a Madrid-based Catalan MP. Today the conservatives refused to vote on the issue in parliament, saying it was an illegal act. How would Holyrood handle that?
OT, again – Just to say that in Catalonia, the listing/possible sacking of foreign workers in the UK has hit home, with “hang the Brits, send back the parasite pensioners” type comments on internet boards, the unionist ones especially. In spite of the Brits being the biggest tourist group in Spain.
Remains to be seen if anything comes of it, but knowing the Spanish I very much doubt it. Campaigning for Catalan independence in the streets, I only once got told to keep my nose out and get back where I came from. By a well dressed gentleman who looked like Franco’s brother.
We’ve got some flamethrowers among current Madrid ministers, mind you, the Foreign chappy promising to have a Spanish flag planted on Gibraltar within 5 years.
Chic McGregor 1247am “Dark Ages” whilst there were undoubtably Dark Ages in What is now England due to Anglo Saxon invasion of the southern park of Great Britain, there were no Dark ages in the other parts of the British Isles.
Some of the art created during this period in Ireland and Scotland proves this, people don’t spend significant amounts of time making art when your next minute could be your last.
@ Petra, anent England’s Royal Line, it depends if you mean the Old-Co or the New-Co. The Old-Co terminated in 1066 when the peeps were enslaved & their lands given to furriners. The New-Co hit the buffers, of course, with Elizabeth, the somewhat androgenous virgin queen whose family had usurped the throne & got their just cumuppance!
Unsure about cumuppance, born in a tenement.
Yurr ah Dandie Dinmont heedtracker, in ah hard-hertit wan tae please.
Liz g,
“Rock @ 7.19
While I’m sure Robert will be along to answer your question properly the simplest answer is yes it would be illegal.”
How “sovereign” are we then?
@ Rock, why don’t you just fuck off and do some research of your own instead of harping on & on with your inane demands.
Try the Mitchell Library, find oot then put up or shut up!
Fred,
“@ Rock, why don’t you just fuck off and do some research of your own instead of harping on & on with your inane demands.
Try the Mitchell Library, find oot then put up or shut up!”
I wasn’t asking you.
Mitchell Library books say Scots are NOT “sovereign”.
Self appointed legal and history expert Robert Peffers bangs on about Scots being “sovereign”.
But he can’t answer a simple question.
Which books would that be? titles & authors! You’re an arse. Robert Peffers is an elderly gentleman who has the patience of a saint, having you harping on & on & on & boring folk to death with your imbecile posts! A suitable case for treatment! Check out lunacy next time you’re at the Mitchell.
Hi Rock.
Read this, then come back to us with your analysis of the contents.
http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/3710/1/arbroath2.pdf
Rock @ 7.59 – 7th Oct
Only just saw your post/question
We are very Sovereign,infact completely Sovereign since the 13th century.
Since 1707 what we did with that Soverenty is to give it to the Westminster MP’s to manage.
How that actually happened is fascinating and well worth looking up,but not necessarily essential,unless you can’t accept the claim without the evedienc.
But as the others have said the evedienc is indeed there,and Briandoonthetoon has just given you some,but by no means all.
If you care to look.
As for takin it back….we have always been able to do that.
But what needs to happen is those MP’s (the Westminster One’s)need to have gotten the instructions to do so.
Now a days we are looking to give that instruction by a vote.
We always hear about UDI,I don’t think that’s a correct term,thats not what the Scottish Westminster MP’s would be doing at all.
They would be bringing the Soverenty that they look after back home because they have been instructed to by the Sovereign (us).
Now that’s very much an oversimplification of the whole thing,but pretty much the nuts and bolts of it.
Hope it helps.
Rock
For an even simpler answer to” How Sovereign Are We ? “.
God himself has no say in this one.
Well unless we get a #we are Scot’s @ Jock Tampson revelation,sometime soon.