Scottish independence referendum, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


Readers’ lives

Posted on September 22, 2013 by

We’ve already run a small collection of our own ham-fisted snapshots, but here are just a few of our favourite pics of yesterday’s rally in Edinburgh that were taken and sent to us by Wings Over Scotland readers.

flagsforth

Click all the pics for larger versions.

rally8

A shot from the main body of the crowd.

rally1

And a nice panorama from way back at the fringes.

rally12

This, we think, is the furthest-away corner, on the south-eastern edge behind the National Monument, where another video screen was set up.

rally3

This one is from near the opposite corner. You can just see the Wings flag dead centre, but the impressive thing is being able to see at the left-hand side how far the crowd stretches back.

rally4

And here’s a side view.

rally6

Thanks to the many fine men and women who took turns carrying the Wings flag.

arthurs

We must confess, we’re not entirely sure why there was a sizeable group of people on Arthur’s Seat as well. But we salute their fitness.

yoda

Not much longer to wait now.

flagpole

Though again, one of the most striking things about the event was how many other nations (and past and future nations) were represented.

north2

Looking north from somewhere near the back.

north

And slightly further along.

rally11

“We’re going to win, aren’t we, Dad?”

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  1. Grahame says:

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.196804057165927.1073741838.122731174573216&type=3
     
    more pics from the rear here.  We couldn’t get close to the stage. 

  2. Triskelion says:

    My respect for the elderly who where there that day. Climbed up the hill to show their support for scotland!

  3. tartanfever says:

    Brilliant Rev – great shots. So many nations represented, inspiring.
    Glad to hear you had some help holding the flag.
    (Think that 4th shot may be the northern side of the hill as Easter Road is in the background.)

  4. BlueTiles says:

    Hey Rev, this is my technical dummy moment of the year, probably.
    How can I send you some pics of the rally? I have a handful of good ones, including a nice shot of the wings flag pre-march.
    **Waits cowering in the corner for simplistically stupid answer**

  5. Seasick Dave says:

    Methinks that is Annabelle Ewing in the bottom one.
     

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “(Think that 4th shot may be the northern side of the hill as Easter Road is in the background.)”

    It is, but I’m not sure there’s anywhere high enough on the northern side. I think it might be the south side, but looking northeast towards the Hibs ground. There was no screen at the back of the north side.

  7. Martyman says:

    Yup – that’s Annabelle

  8. ianbrotherhood says:

    Passed a very lame middle-aged man near the start of the Hill, he was only able to take seven or eight steps before having to lean on the wall. Don’t know if he made it, but it was heart-wrenching. Anyone know who I mean? 
     
     

  9. HeatherMcLean says:

    Re the folk on Arthurs Seat… maybe that’s the 8000 the BBC were reporting?? hehehe!!

  10. Sneddon says:

    ianbritherhood – I think I know who you mean, he did get up there with the help of friends.  Thank god for that wall.  I am recovering from a stroke that happend last year  and it was a blessing to have it there.  A young policeman asked if I was ok!  Blimey, changed days since the poll tax usually they were a little more robust with me.  The advantage of the policemen looking younger I suppose. :)

  11. Embradon says:

    Many, many more people – including me – would have said helo if they could have found you! I was too late at the Albanach evidently :-(
    Note for next year – We’re going to need a bigger flag!
    Well done everybody. Brilliant day.

  12. handclapping says:

    Another one of the great things about the Rally was the lack of evidence of the SNP. Working locally with their Yes groups has made them realise that they are not the only fish in the pond and that Yes is miles better for all the other folk in it.
     
    Its not Salmond’s referendum, its not even a political referendum, its the people’s referendum.

  13. Sneddon says:

    A strange co-incidence struck me.  Both marches were held when Hibs had a home game.  Hibs didn’t lose either time.  Just saying

  14. Keef says:

    Someone made the point that seeing as England’s population is 50 million and ten times bigger than Scotland’s, the equivalent rally would have saw 200,000 to 300,000 attend If held in London. 
    Made  me think just how impressive the turnout was.

  15. Nae wonder Ah could’ny find yie, whit a wee toaty flag! Bigger wan needed fir next year.

  16. Sneddon says:

    Handclapping –  That’s  something the unionists can’t quite get their wee heids around.   Did you miss thier excellent stall with free copies of their magazine.  I think that stall physically demonstrated they are just another group in the YES tent along with the other stalls from the other great groups in the campaign.  Some great stuff on all the stalls pity there was nothing that fits the ‘larger gentleman’ but loads of literature to read.  :)

  17. gerry parker says:

    Well, made it into the photo’s.  Last photo me and my pal Dave, just behing the wee girl and her dad.
    What a great day, liked the aerial shot.
    8,000 – aye right!

  18. DonDeefLugs says:

    Hi, here’s a few pics from yesterday.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/117320013745875744158/Rally2013
     
    Was great meeting everyone yesterday and getting to meet the rev (my shiny badge is now treasured). I must say I felt there was a very special feeling amongst the ‘wingers’, hard to put into words but a brothers-in-arms type of camaraderie. All joined in common purpose speaking truth to power.
     
    A special mention to JLT, Paul fi Broxburn, TonyMcC, Albalha and many more, thanks for being such fantastic company. I look forward to meeting up soon. A Wings night out?

  19. bunter says:

    Sorry, just watching the biggest joke of an interview of Lamont on The BBC by that wee snivelling nyaff. Hardest question was ” Is Ed Miliband a good leader” ? Labour party political  broadcast, no interruptions and hardly a pause for breath.

  20. handclapping says:

    @Sneddon
    As a Hibee since 1949 we must have these more often! :)

  21. HandandShrimp says:

    Not sure if this will work but here goes
    https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/539132_613670391989484_1399360181_n.jpg
     
    Careful observers will note I have earned brownie points with Stu by moving slightly to the right to take this.

  22. I grabbed a few shots with a rather old camera.

  23. Gallowglass says:

    I managed to get one of the two guys up on the monument to take my phone up and take some panoramic shots..
    http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/792/zojr.jpg

    So I owe that and two other shots to him, guy with black hair trying encourage everyone else to climb up, so thanks if you read this.
     
    I must have about 250 photos, some good some bad, need to try and nurse this headache a bit first though. 

  24. Doug R says:

    That looks like Blair Jenkins in the bottom right of pic 4. Was great to see the “VIP’s” mingling with the crowd yesterday. Couldn’t see it happening at a Bitter Together rally!

  25. BlueTiles says:

    By the power of the internets.
    This one was as we were assembling.
    http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4430/lylg.jpg
    Wings Flag waving proudly at assembly.
    http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2403/w6ra.jpg
    At the eastern edge looking on
    http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4669/lqwt.jpg
     

  26. Iain says:

    It’s not a pic of Arthur’s Seat. An optical illusion. They are on Calton hill with Salisbury crags in the background. Great day, but couldn’t get near the stage. My wife is American and has been here forty years. She has MS but made it from Waterloo Place to the monument. Anyone know how I can get her on the electoral roll?

  27. Marcia says:

    Derek Bateman on a future Unionist rally:
     
    http://tinyurl.com/nc3emmo

  28. I think I got the Wings crew from the stage before the #TradYes performance. Sorry I didn’t manage to meet you guys on the day. Photos and vids at Logic’s Rock: Aye, Have a Dream.

  29. ianbrotherhood says:

    @sneddon-
     
    More power to ye mister! Brilliant, inspiring stuff.

  30. PRJ says:

    The photo of Arthurs seat is an illusion caused by using telephoto lens. The lens brings in the background reducing the depth of feild making it more shallow. i.e. bring the background closer to foreground, an effect used by photographers.

  31. seoc says:

    Great to see the flag of Kernow aloft – the old gaidhlig Land of Cornwall, now seeking their Independence.

  32. Jimbo says:

    More photos of the day:
    https://picasaweb.google.com/106091106726005563972/September22201302#
     
    Camera was set to three frames per snap to give the impression of movement – They haven’t been edited out yet – If you see yourself, feel free to copy.

  33. Alex Taylor says:

    @Iain Brotherhood
     
    Pedant alert (Morag’s no here so am taking on the responsibility):
    Heart rending and Gut wrenching just so’s you don’t do it again on a public forum.
    I bought you a pint in the Horseshoe so I hope you take the ‘rebuke’ in the spirit it’s intended.
    Wee smiley thing, Iain.
     
    We had a great day yesterday but sorry we missed most of you Wingers.
    Next time.

  34. kininvie says:

    This one I especially liked – from one of our Catalonian friends:
     
    https://twitter.com/La_Nefer/status/381388620436754432/photo/1

  35. Macart says:

    As per usual, the pics don’t lie.
     
    What a result. Look forward to meeting you folks next year for party time.

  36. lumilumi says:

    Thanks, everyone, for your lovely photos. Especially big thanks to Grahame, among your FB photos I spotted what I thought were a couple of my Scottish friends!!!  They have now confirmed that they, indeed, were there yesterday!
     
    We got to know each other in the early 1990s, and being in our early twenties and far more interested in partying and the opposite sex, couldn’t care less about politics. I last saw them this August holidaying in Scotland. We didn’t talk much politics, they were don’t knows then. I think I mentioned WoS and a couple of other sites but left it at that. And yesterday they were on the Independence march & rally! :-D

  37. Jeannie says:

    I’m in picture 8, top right hand corner, wrapped in a saltire.  I didn’t take any pictures as the battery was low on my phone and I was worried it would run out – so thanks for the photies.

  38. lumilumi says:

    @kininvie
     

    This one I especially liked – from one of our Catalonian friends:
     
    https://twitter.com/La_Nefer/status/381388620436754432/photo/1

     
    And, as per usual, an bitter together wades in with a snide, disparaging remark to this beautiful photo. They really can’t help themselves. sigh.

  39. MajorBloodnok says:

    @HandandShrimp
     
    And to the left of the Rev and flag in your photo is me in the green hat with my 10 year old son gleefully trying to knee me in the bloodnoks.

  40. JLT says:

    ‘Claustrophobics for Independence, anyone?’ (photo above)
     
    AAARGHH!!!! …Arthur’s Seat!!!! The horror! The horror! Nooooo!
     
    Just when I thought I was getting over it, I’m reminded off the pain and anguish in trying to climb it as I did yesterday morning before heading for the Albanach. Never again! My legs are horribly sore today!
     
    On a totally different note …where do you think they will hold next year’s event? Do they organise something in all 7 cities at the same time? (which isn’t a bad idea as it would certainly highlight it for the whole nation (would certainly have the media is a spin!) The organisation might be a bit mad, but, I can see the positives in it!).
    I know Holyrood is out of the question (Queen’s property), and after being on Calton Hill; well, to be honest, I found it rather awkward for seeing the main stage.
    The Meadows? Or do we just flood out Princes Street Gardens?
    It is certainly something to think about!

  41. Brian Powell says:

    Complete poison coming from ‘reporters’ in the Telegraph.

  42. Morag says:

    I can’t do anything about my photos until I find the mains charger for my camera.  I think the best overview of the crowd was the short clip from RT, although even that didn’t entirely do it justice.  Maybe if someone took some photos from the top of that tower?
     
    This 8,500 thing is similar to what I suspected about the bogus 5,000 figure for last year.  That 5000 was the maximum number they had policed for, and they weren’t going to admit they had under-resourced the event.  Considering there were probably about 8,500 there last year, anyone who seriously thought that was all that was going to turn up this year was living in cloud cuckoo land.
     
    Does anyone have a link to a clip of this alleged Better Together leafleting malarkey?  I certainly didn’t see anything, and I think if they’d tried that with the main march they’d have been lucky to get away with being blanked.  I’d dearly love to see what was shown.
     
    It was a beautiful day, with no trouble at all, everyone friendly and helpful.  Once or twice I wandered off leaving my bag and jacket on the grass by the Wings flag, then thought, don’t be so stupidly trusting, if you were a pickpocket in Edinburgh today, where would you be?  Right here, with flag and face-paint.  But I didn’t hear of anyone losing so much as a return bus ticket.

  43. magnus barelegs says:

    Andrew Gilligan smearing the Flemish and Scottish people with his classic brit-state propaganda in the london scumograph………go away Gilligan you contemptible liar and take that hideous rag you work for with you.

  44. jim mitchell says:

    Relax folks, the smears just reflect their fears which are growing all the time

  45. JLT says:

    cynicalHighlander says:     

    Here is an aerial shot.
      
    HeatherMcLean says:     

    Re the folk on Arthurs Seat… maybe that’s the 8000 the BBC were reporting?? hehehe!!
    ——————
    I cannot believe that everyone involved in the march …are ALL standing on the hill in that photo! They MUST have turned folk away. I remember standing by the Tower on the hill, with DonDeefLugs, Tony, with a few others, and we watched in disbelief at the size of the rally as it moved down the bridges. We were there for a good 15 minutes! At the time, there was at least a good 3,000 already on the hill! I have photos taken from the hill, looking on the bridges, and you can see that it was still busy at that point
     
    https://plus.google.com/photos?banner=pwa&hl=en-GB&pid=5926428976254430082&oid=110597853632470313963
     
    https://plus.google.com/photos?banner=pwa&hl=en-GB&pid=5926429119969517570&oid=110597853632470313963
     
    Plus, we were held up for a good 10 minutes at the base of the hill, while Security / Police / Organisers, made their final amendments for the day. We were jam packed at the bottom of the hill, even at that point!
    The bridge if you followed the path to the hill was over a kilometre away. There is no way that that was everyone involved in the March. For me, from what I saw that day, it just doesn’t look right. People must have been turned away!
     
    On a more humorous note …myself and DonDeefLugs came across a new statue in the Cowgate. In a little way …it looks like Willie Rennie. Enjoy!
    https://plus.google.com/photos?banner=pwa&hl=en-GB&pid=5926429164611405922&oid=110597853632470313963

  46. magnus barelegs says:

    Aye correct it proves that they are bricking it!!!!
    Vote Yes

  47. nelliejean says:

    @HandandShrimp
     
    I’m just in your pic, riiiiiiiiight over at the left hand side with the pink hair and glasses!
     
    I didn’t take many photos myself, but here’s half a dozen or so: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nellie_jean/sets/72157635758267493/

  48. muttley79 says:

    I reckon the crowd was probably at around the 20,000 mark.  I think 30,000 was an over exageration.  At most maybe 25,000.  I saw Murdo Fraser’s remark about the rally, and thought it was really pathetic.  I think they are privately concerned…

  49. Betsy says:

    What an amazing day. Even bigger and better than last year and it was nice to meet some of the Wings contingent on the day. More so as me and my hungover friends all managed to sleep in and miss our meeting point, so I was travelling solo. I had hoped to say hello to the Rev but I got lost in the queue for tea and our paths didn’t cross again -so a belated hiya! 

    The train journey itself was a hoot as I found myself sitting opposite one Wendy Alexander who proceeded to indiscreetly and rather foolishly spend substantial parts of journey yakking on her mobile about Damien McBride’s revelation that her brother Douglas told Gordon Brown to dump her over donorgate + ‘bring it on’. Long story short she believes McBride and thinks the ever charming Douglas is fibbing and relying on her refusing to comment publicly on it to get away with fibbing. I’m not sure talking loudly on a train full of indy supporters on their way to a rally qualifies as not commenting publicly but I’m sure she knows what she’s doing. ;)

    Like last year the atmosphere was fantastic and very, very inspiring. With a Yes group just recently up and running in my area and the renewed motivation yesterday has given me I’m in for a very busy twelve months. 
      
     

  50. Brian Powell says:

    According to the BBC Scotland webpage the figure attending the march is now 5,000!

  51. AlexMci says:

    How about an other wee run of shiny badges for the ones that missed them Rev. For a suitable donation to WOS. I would love one. If it is possible then I would be grateful if you could make it happen.

  52. muttley79 says:

    @Brian Powell
     

    According to the BBC Scotland webpage the figure attending the march is now 5,000!
     
    WTF!  No way was there only 5,000.  At least 15,000 imo. 

  53. Brian Powell says:

    5000 would be a third of those seated in Centre Court in Wimbledon!

  54. Brian Powell says:

    Apologies, that was the figure for last year!
    Still compare Wimbeledon Centre Court wihch holds 15,000 to photographs of yesterday would be useful.

  55. HeatherMcLean says:

    Following on from 2012 the March & Rally for Scottish Independence DOUBLED in size this September to a impressive 20,000 participants!  Numbers verified by stewards armed with counter clickers.

    This is an immense achievement for a grassroots event powered by YOU and bringing together many different political and personal views but all with the same purpose and goal – to say YES to an Independent Scotland.

    We thank you for your support throughout 2013 and look forward to an even greater turnout in 2014 – we are immensely proud of each and everyone of you.

    Jeff Duncan – March & Rally Organiser

     

    I got this in an email from Yes Scotland

  56. lumilumi says:

    I had a quick look around the Finnish MSM to see if the rally had made it over the “news threshold”. Sad to say, not a peep. :-(  Fair enough, international news today is pretty much dominated by the German election and the events in Kenya, with a bit of typhoon Usagi thrown in.
     
    Anyway, if the Finnish media have British correspondents, they’re based in London and mainly take their stories from the British MSM. Long gone are the days when Helsingin Sanomat actually sent a correspondent to Edinburgh and did a double page speread on Scotland and the SNP in 1992. I still have the clippings, featuring the then younger (and slimmer) leader Alex Salmond and a couple of youth wing activists by the name Stewart Hosie and Shona Robinson!
     
    Adrian B, in the Handshakes etc. thread posted a link to the Norwegian paper Aftenposten (tabloid, but not in the British style). It’s got some nice pics, taken when the march was only beginning to assemble, and you can see that the Norwegians were after kilts, saltires etc.
     
    http://www.aftenposten.no/uriks/%E2%80%93Selv-bikkja-mi-skjonner-at-Skottland-klarer-seg-bedre-alene-7317362.html#.Uj7l1vKpka-
     
    For those of you who don’t know Norwegian, the headline means “Even my dug knows Scotland’s better off on its own”
    I don’t actually know Norwegian either, but being fluent in Swedish I could understand most of it. They’d interviewed several indy marches and quoted arguments such as self-determination, democratic deficit, nobody up here likes the Tories, a more equal and socially just society… And an oil fund. Aftenposten probably ran the story because Robyn Warrender (31) said that Norway is the Scots’ role model :-D (Norwegians are a bit smug that way :-) )

  57. ScotFree1320 says:

    What an inspiring day!  I took along two friends, one with his wife & some cronies of the RIC, and my parents and all thoroughly enjoyed the day.  For me, the highlight was Yes We Canavan, who delivered a truly inspiring speech.  It’s onwards and upwards now for Yes!

    Some of my scenes

    http://on.fb.me/16R8JIW
    http://on.fb.me/18jcmro (Damn that finger, it always gets in the way!)
     

  58. Sam Dee says:

    Don’t tell me the guys in the helicopter didn’t take any pictures, showing the whole magnificent scene. Anyhow, there’s nae pictures o’ me and ah didnae get a badge – gutted!!

  59. ScotFree1320 says:

    The fun started at the bus station, where I was approached by four people, two of whom were asking directions to High St.  

    Of the other two, one outgoing traveller complimented me on my Saltire flag, saying, “Scottish not British,” while another was heading away on the bus saying he’d have definitely attended if only he’d known it was happening.  

    Even walking to High St, the flag attracted fellow marchers and on-lookers, asking what it was for!  For next year it seems we need more publicity!

  60. Votadini Jeannie says:

    I’ve been enjoying everyone’s photos (mine weren’t great so I won’t post them), and trawled through them as well as the YT vids to check out the flags. On that alone we were supported yesterday by:
     
    Wales
    Ireland
    Mann
    Cornwall
    Brittany
    Sardinia
    Sicily
    Venice
    Catalonia
    Neveron
    South Tyrol
    Poland.
     
    I’m told that Corsica were present but I’ve not spotted their flag in any photos. It would be wonderful if those who we know were there without their flags, Aussies, Americans etc. could bring them along to the next one, to clearly show that the world is behind us!

  61. liz says:

    Not sure if this can be confirmed but over in Munguin’s republic they are saying that the police confirm 30,000.
     
    Tried to find info on-line but couldn’t. Maybe someone – I don’t do twitter – could ask them where they got that from.
     
     

  62. Craig P says:

    Betsy, Wendy Alexander is famous for her ability to see herself as others do ;) I miss her, she brought gaiety and relief to the grey world of politics. 
     
    A march in Glasgow is a good idea, though there are plenty more trumpets, nihilists and party crashers in Glasgow compared to Edinburgh. It would be livelier, anyway. 
     
    Well done everyone at the march. And well done Rev Stu. Take a wee moment to reflect the high esteem you are held in – by me aye, but also by people far smarter, compassionate and passionate than me, some of whom post here and many of whom dinnae. More power to your pixels. 
     
    Anyway that’s all my toadying today – we’ve got a job to do :)

  63. The Man in the Jar says:

    I’m just back home after overnighting in Fife and I still have a lot of catching up to do.
    Firstly it was a privilege to meet and shake the hand of Rev. Stu (sorry I missed the hint to take a shot at the banner ;-) !) I was hoping to meet up later and perhaps have a chat. I missed out on a badge as I was sitting looking at a deserted gold post box until I dug out my brand new smartphone and for the first time ever went on line outdoors only to read that “plan B” had been put into action. Talking of herding cats there seemed to be confusion as to where everyone was meeting up after the event. I had heard the name of a pub which I couldn’t` remember but thought someone had said “Princess St. and Leith Walk”  Cameron B and myself wandered around eventually giving up some distance down Leith Walk and walking back to the Albanach where I had the best lager shandy of my life(An “Ice Cold in Alex” moment!)
    Also great to meet up with fellow wingers to numerous to mention thanks to all of you it made the day a bit special. Wont it be strange being able to put faces to names?
    The event itself went quite well in my opinion. The march was a bit slow but no worse than some others that I have attended. The speeches were all good. Nicolas speech I think that she was near to greetin at one point. Elaine C. was excellent as well. Imagine for a ridiculous moment that we had an unbiased media and that ordinary people were getting a regular dose of speeches and opinions from all of the speakers this referendum would be a cake walk!
    Anyhow I have bags to unpack. Looking forward to next year (Full highland-wear for that one!)
    Thank you all!

  64. Taranaich says:

    Argh, I’m tearing my guts out here seeing all these wonderful pictures. I wish knowing that I would probably had a horrendous time (so many people, even friendly people…) could make me feel better, but it doesn’t. In the spirit of solidarity, me and my wee freen went up my wee hill: no’ much, but I felt I had to mark the occasion somehow.
     
    http://bannockburncomic.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/all-of-scotland-is-calton-hill.html
     
    All things considered, this was a gathering of people bound together by an idea. This time next year, when the true cost of the union is finally laid bare, when Yes Scotland finally go into overdrive, when the months of negative campaigning finally fails, it won’t just be those thousands of people who marched up Calton Hill – it will be a nation.
     
    Next year, all of Scotland will be Calton Hill.

  65. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Votadini Jeannie
    I spotted some Ausies with a great “Australia for Yeah” mock Yes placard. :lol:

  66. John Donaldson says:

    How about Murrayfield as the venue for the finally rally? It’s commodious, excellent lines of sight, great for tv, and there could be no dispute about the numbers…

  67. muttley79 says:

    Some people are arguing that the march next year should be in Glasgow.  Nothing against Glasgow as a city, but I would prefer it to be in Edinburgh for the following reasons:
    Glasgow City Council; enough said.  They would use every trick in the book to sabotage the arrangements, and make it as difficult as possible for the organisers.  Also, Edinburgh council is jointly run by SNP and Labour.
    It would be closer to the main Loyalist/ Orange Order presence in Scotland.  I am afraid it would just be asking for trouble holding it in Glasgow for this reason.  If there was trouble then the Yes side would get the blame.  The MSM are not going to blame violent Unionists, and by association the No campaign, so close to the referendum.   
    Edinburgh is the capital city, and home of the Scottish Parliament.  If we had the rally in Glasgow the media would make a big thing of Edinburgh being rejected.   

  68. Morag says:

    I wondered if anyone had heard from Arbroath 1320?  There was a gentleman in a wheelchair at the Albannach when Stuart arrived, whom I thought must be him.  At about that point Stuart started giving out the badges and I was caught behind the wheelchair and my extended hand didn’t get close enough.  Stu had turned away and I practically fell over the wheelchair to get a badge.  I then reached out and got a second one which I pressed into the hand of the chap in the wheelchair, so if it was Arbroath I know he got one.
     
    I had hoped to see him later and speak in less hectic circumstances, but I never saw him again.  The hill was an impossible place for a wheelchair of course.  Arbroath, was that you?  Were you there?  What happened later – did you make it to the hill?

  69. old mikey says:

    Looked for but couldn’t find wings.
    There were 30,000 there all right, and how do I know this? Because there were more bloody people queued up for the 10 portaloos than better together will have at their rally, that’s how. I nearly busted a gut before I got to the front of the queue.

  70. Morag says:

    The other person I thought I was sorry not to have seen was HandandShrimp.  However, in an earlier post here he said he met me!  There were just so many handsome middle-aged guys shaking my hand I was quite unable to remember which one was which, and I don’t remember anyone claiming to be him!

  71. Morag says:

    Facilities?  Like I said to RevStu, you should have gone before you left the house.  Dammit, I’m the knocking-on-elderly female, and I only found out there was such a queue when I was trying to get near the SI booth and asked someone who was in my road what the queue was for.
     
    Sympathies for pregnant ladies and gentlemen with personal difficulties, but hey, the young and healthy were simply lacking in foresight.

  72. Jeannie says:

    @lumilumi
     
    That photo with the three wee girls in it is fantastic.  Reminds you why we do this.

  73. Jeannie says:

    @Morag
     
    After you lot started up the hill, myself and a friend stood at the entrance at the bottom to wait for the East Dunbartonshire crowd, thinking they wouldn’t be too long.  Half an hour later we were still there as group after group sailed by us.  But it meant I could see everybody in the crowd who came after me, up until my crowd appeared.  There was indeed an older man in a wheelchair and I asked him if he were Arbroath, but sadly he wasn’t.  Don’t know if it was the same man you saw at the Albanach. 

  74. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Morag,
     
    I’m certain I met with Arbroath 1320 and assuming it was he, he wasn’t wheelchair bound

  75. Morag says:

    Well, the chap in the wheelchair seemed to be part of the group waiting for RevStu, and several people assumed it was Arbroath.  I do remember Arbroath saying he would be in a wheelchair.  However, I had been expecting someone older, so maybe not.  I’m sure it was one of us Wingnuts :D anyway.

  76. Jeannie says:

    By the way, don’t you all just love “Yoda” in picture 9?

  77. mogabee says:

    Well despite staying overnight in Livingston, we missed the meet at pub. It’s years since I was last in Edinburgh and got a little lost initially until we started to see lots of flags!
     Had the most amazing day, met loads of really nice folk and yes shook Stu’s hand at the hill. We had great fun trying to reach the Wings flag but my partner is 6ft 4 and can climb mountains too!!
      Was asked by an American couple about why we were so keen to be Independent, was quite pleased with myself that I managed to explain without a pause and I think they went off better informed.
     Haven’t sorted photies yet, daughter’s camera is sooo complicated. Got back home ( near Campbeltown) late last night absolutely knocked out but buzzing from all the speeches and camaraderie. 
      My once undecided fella is now “upfurit” and can’t wait for the next rally! Oh, and I’ve started planning the party already!!

  78. Jeannie says:

    Don’t think I’d like it to be in Glasgow next year.  But I’d love it to be in Stirling.

  79. Jeannie says:

    Having said that I’d love it to be in Stirling, I’m also inclined to wonder if Stirling would have the facilities – pubs, restaurants, etc. to deal with that big a crowd. I always think they could make a lot more of Stirling if they just put in more of an effort.

  80. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Excellent photos Stu.
     
    I was there in person but could not find the Wings Flag. We looked for it at the gold post box…..nothing. We walked up the High Street a wee bit and couldn’t see the flag so we returned to the box……still nothing. I then had a brainwave. I asked my partner’s daughter to check the Wing’s site. Then it hit us…….you were all meeting up at the Albanach bar!!!
     
    We made it up to the Albanach and briefly met Bubbles. Unfortunately we couldn’t stay where we were otherwise we’d have been blocking the pavement!!! We moved to the topside of the Albanach and “parked” up in Fleshmarket Close.
     
    When the band started up we still couldn’t see any Wing’s flag so we made our way to the roadside and ended up joining the march just ahead of the Women for Independence banner.
     
    What a day, and to crown things off whilst we waited at Falkirk for my partner to bring the car round to us we engaged in conversation with a woman obviously waiting for her lift to arrive. Man that was the first time I have met an out and out unionist face to face, and I felt so sorry for her. She started with the ‘you cannae afford independence’ line and went downhill from there. I have to admit we had a hard time trying to keep a straight face every time she did her ‘you cannae……’ approach.

  81. Doug R says:

    @Muttley79
     
    I tend to agree with you. Much as I love Glasgow the combination of potential disruption & a Labour run council who would do anything to ruin it could end up generating more bad press than good.

  82. Votadini Jeannie says:

    The Man in the Jar says:

    I spotted some Ausies with a great “Australia for Yeah” mock Yes placard.
     
     I saw them too and got a blurred photie. A flag would have been fabby though…
     
     Grrr! Just realised I missed Flanders off my list.

  83. Jim says:

    Thats right Heather.
    Stewards clicked everyone in and counted 20,000.
    Add to that the fact that about 20% of people that took part in the march actually didnt attend the rally (according to police figures) and therefore werent clicked in, there were 25,000 marchers.

  84. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “Here is an aerial shot”

    But that aerial shot makes the attendance look about 5,000 – Calton Hill is barely half full.

    Does anyone know if that photo was taken while the rally was in full swing, or whether it was before the vast majority of people were there?

    If it was the former then its quite clear that the attendance was nowhere near 30,000.

  85. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “It would be closer to the main Loyalist/ Orange Order presence in Scotland.  I am afraid it would just be asking for trouble holding it in Glasgow for this reason”

    Yes……because if they want to cause trouble, 50 minutes by train is too far for the orange order to come…………

  86. Jeannie says:

    @Arbroath 1320
     
    Sorry didn’t get to meet you, but glad to hear you got there ok.  Mibbes next time?

  87. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “This time next year, when the true cost of the union is finally laid bare, when Yes Scotland finally go into overdrive”

    Shouldn’t Yes Scotland go into overdrive and the true cost of the union be laid bare now rather than in 12 months?!

    It will be far too late by then.

  88. Erchie says:

    Yes, Edinburgh is too hard for the OO. They have to ship so many from NI after all

  89. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “Jeff Duncan – March & Rally Organiser”

    Does anyone know whether Jeff Duncan and his fellow organisers got in touch with their counterparts who organised last year’s Catalan rally?

    If not then they certainly should do before the next rally – the Catalan independence rally had (at the very lowest estimate) 600,000 people. 

    Polls suggest that far more Catalans support independence than Scots, but nonetheless it would certainly be worth investigating the marketing and promotional techniques that they used to attract such a massive crowd compared to the (lowest estimate) 8,000 who turned out yesterday. 

    Wouldn’t it be great if next year’s rally could attract 500,000 Scots? That would certainly be something to get excited about.

  90. Morag says:

    Ah, so the guy I thought was Arbroath, wasn’t.  I hope he wasn’t just someone there by accident, and I didn’t give one of the coveted silver badges to a total stranger!

  91. Dcanmore says:

    Looked to be great day. Pity I couldn’t make it and well done to those who did! I’ll certainly make plans for the next one. Yup, going by the pictures it looks like 20,000 to me, enough to fill Easter Road. Maybe the next rally could be held at the… Science Park at Pacific Quay! HA, chance would be a fine thing, lets just fill Hampden or Murrayfield instead. :)

  92. Richie says:

    The Wings flag and some other nice flags

    http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1495/rpcl.jpg

  93. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “Yup, going by the pictures it looks like 20,000 to me”

    What about the aerial photo, does that look like 20,000? Which scientific technique do you use to estimate a crowd size based on a photo?

  94. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    I hope everyone avoided this group at the march, assuming its true what the Telegraph is saying:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10325655/Far-Right-group-allied-to-Scottish-separatists.html

  95. panda paws says:

    Hope everyone has a good time – sorry I couldn’t attend. Re Arbroath 1320 – SHE’s a wheelchair user and was definitely there.

  96. kendomacaroonbar says:

    I just loved the Ruth Wishart joke about the ATOS ‘Lourdes’ comment…. disabled and infirm go in one door and after 10 minutes come out another door *cured* and fit for work !

  97. Murray McCallum says:

    Fantastic pictures everyone. What a tremendously positive event. Liked the wee lad with the yoda picture – wise words.

  98. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Panda Paws, oops my sincere apologies to the Lady in question, and to the Gentleman who I mistakenly assume was he/she

  99. Ann says:

    PCSA
    The photo looked like it was taken earlier on.
    On the left I think you can still see the marchers heading up the road towards the entrance at the bottom of the Hill.

  100. Morag says:

    You know, I think I was aware some months ago that Arbroath was a lady, but forgot.  Then when a couple of people wondered if the chap in the wheelchair was Arbroath, I just thought, that’ll be right then.
     
    Maybe I did give one of the silver badges to a complete stranger who was inadvertently caught in the scrum!

  101. john king says:

    keef says @ 12.03pm
    do you know?
    I have never thought of it that way,
    what a good point. :)

  102. scaredy cat says:

    Has anyone got a fly swatter?
     

  103. Davy says:

    Is their a date for next years rally ?
     

  104. Morag says:

    Maybe we need to re-post the video clip from Russia Today.  http://rt.com/in-motion/  It’s only a minute long but it’s a decent overview.  I thought the Wings contingent should have been in the snippet from 24 to 28 seconds, but it’s such a big crowd I can’t pick anyone out.
     
    There’s a bit from 45 to 50 seconds where the camera pans the crowd during Margo’s speech.  It isn’t the entire crowd by a fair bit, but it might be two-thirds of it.  It’s the best view I’ve seen for giving an idea of the numbers.  Maybe it was 20,000, maybe it was 30,000, but it was sure as hell a lot more than 8,300.

  105. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “I’m also inclined to wonder if Stirling would have the facilities – pubs, restaurants, etc. to deal with that big a crowd”

    I’m sure it does. Stirling University has around 11,500 students, so if its got enough pubs and restaurants for them it should have enough for a similar attendance at the rally, although you’d hope the attendance next year will be a lot higher.

  106. Silverytay says:

    Well done to all you wingers who managed to meet up , unfortunately my son wanted to show solidarity with L.F.I after all the flack they took about being an S.N.P front .
    I did manage to bang into Liz on the hill and I am sure I saw Chic McGregor having a wee rest down near the Business for Scotland tent , at least I think it,s Chic that has the Lion Rampant / mouse flag .
    Rev  , a wee suggestion , how about changing the design of the next batch of badges slightly so that those wingers who were fortunate to get one of the 1st hundred have a collectors piece in years to come .
    Looking forward to your next batch of badges so I can buy one .
    Hopefully I can manage one of the night out so that I don’t have to wait a year before meeting you all .

  107. john king says:

    john donaldson says @ 3.46pm
    So, Murryfield will hold a hundred thousand then? ;)

  108. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “Maybe it was 20,000, maybe it was 30,000, but it was sure as hell a lot more than 8,300″

    This is 25,000 people, in Borussia Dortmund’s Kop: http://hullcity.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=196

    I’d suggest that looks like significantly more people than when the camera pans out in your video. 

  109. CameronB says:

    Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
     
    Fie, foh, fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman

    Meaning

    Literal meaning.

    Origin
    The phrase has no allusory meaning and, apart from when quoting Shakespeare or Jack the Giant Killer, there’s little reason ever to use it.
    It is best known from the nursery rhyme – Jack the Giant Killer:

    Fee-fi-fo-fum
    I smell the blood of an Englishman.
    Be he alive or be he dead
    I’ll grind his bones to make my bread.

    The source is anonymous and the date is unknown. It must have been before 1596. It is referred to by the English dramatist Thomas Nashe, in Have with you to Saffron-walden, 1596:

    “O, tis a precious apothegmatical Pedant, who will find matter enough to dilate a whole day of the first invention of Fy, fa, fum, I smell the blood of an English-man”.

    How true. Let’s not spend the whole day on this and finish with Shakespeare’s alternate version, from King Lear, 1605:

    “Child Roland to the dark tower came,
    His word was still, Fie, foh, and fum,
    I smell the blood of a British man.”
    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/136100.html
     

  110. heraldnomore says:

    Labour Party to break up when the Yes vote comes home – so saith the fragrant Magrit.  Does anyone need any more incentive?  First Indy, then Labour deid, even more so than they are already.

  111. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “Labour Party to break up when the Yes vote comes home”

    Presumably Labour will split into a properly Scottish Labour Party, I wouldn’t say that will be them ‘deid’ though – in many ways they’re the natural party of choice in Scotland, if they can re-position themselves as a properly Scottish left-wing party then they’ll probably win most elections in an independent Scotland.

    If anyone fractures after independence it will be the SNP – why would a party made up of big business, corporate, pro-monarchists and socialist, left wing republicans remain together once their overriding objective has been achieved? 

  112. EdinScot says:

    Gutted i had to pull out of attending this years march & rally due to buying a car from a friend who had booked it in on saturday(i know i know) for an mot for the car before i bought it from them.  Just one of those things i suppose and will keep new polo shirt with slogan for the big one next year.  Been catching up with all the speeches and photos so want to thank all you gals n guys for posting them to allow those that were unable to attend to see the blaze of colour that descended on the Scottish Capital yesterday…what an amazing sight you were to locals and tourists alike.  How the Unionists must wish they had that kind  of motivated support on their side.  In their dreams.  I too am buzzing with excitement from reading and viewing all this and  i wasnt even there!  I will walk over hot coals to be at the next one.  Well done everyone and suck it up to the NO to Scotland mob.

  113. heraldnomore says:

    the natural party of choice – that’ll be the one with the majority government I’d guess

  114. heraldnomore says:

    and there was me thinking we had a Scottish Labour Party, with a real leader of all cooncillors and parliamentarians in Scottish constituencies and wards – are you telling me they’ve been lying all along and were dancing to London’s tune Publius?  Surely not?

  115. kendomacaroonbar says:

    O/T  Hope that YES Aberdeen retreived their banner from the pub ?

  116. scaredy cat says:

    Quick question.
    Does anyone know what happened to the children’s entertainment etc?
    The Independence Rally website promised an area for kids as well as ‘facilities’, but there didn’t appear to be anything. My wee boy was fine. He just loved running around and dancing to the music, but I spoke to a couple of mums whose older kids were a bit bored. 
    I also noticed a lady sitting on the grass breastfeeding her wee one. Now, she might have been absolutely fine with that (her and baby looked perfectly relaxed), but others might have found that a bit awkward. 
    Just wondering what happened.
     
     

  117. Cruachan says:

    Still smiling truly great great weekend. It’s on.

     

  118. Morag says:

    Does anyone know what happened to the children’s entertainment etc?
     
    There was a face-painting stall on the extension of the approach road, down where the food vans and other stalls were situated.

  119. Ann says:

    PCSA you remind me of someone on another forum that frequent, and he is just like you always stating a negative in a positive.

  120. Thepnr says:

    Vade et invenire tua theatrum to evomere vestris bilem

  121. scaredy cat says:

    @ Morag
    Yeah I saw that, but I think the website intimated more than that.
    “this year we will be providing entertainment for younger children in a separate area of the event, and facilities for parents with young children”
     
     

  122. tornface says:

    I was so invigorated after the rally I decided to walk home. My poor old legs today.
     
    I felt there was at least 20,000 there.

  123. Jim says:

    The stewards scanned 20,000 people entering Calton Hill, the police say that 25% of those that marched didn’t attend the rally. meaning that 25,000 independence supporters enjoyed a great great day, myself included.
    25,000 marching in the Scottish capital, in terms of population, is equivalent to 250,000 marching in London.
    I cant for the life of me think why the unionists are rettled.
    Anyway, lets double it again next year!

  124. david says:

    a rally in stirling would be awesome. all that history and bannockburn being in stirling and the amazing castle and wallace monument in full view

  125. Shinty says:

    Stirling Uni – is way out of town, plenty facilities on campus for them not to bother. (cheaper too)

  126. scaredy cat says:

    Kings Park in Stirling would be great. Beautiful location near the castle with easy access from everywhere, being right in the heart of Scotland. And loads for the kids to do as well :-)
    Not sure where the march would start though.

  127. david says:

    march could start from bannockburn

  128. Linda's back says:

    I see One Nation Labour’s new logo is a huge St George’s Cross superimposed on a union flag which I assume is to appeal to UKIP voters along with the hair brained idea that every employer who wants to employ a worker from abroad has to also employ an apprentice thus raising their costs by 50%.

  129. scaredy cat says:

    Wow, now that would be one helluva march!

  130. Ian V says:

    A few more photos, Great day. We did see the wings flag at one point but sadly didn’t manage to get to say hello
    http://bit.ly/18j7JO1

  131. Morag says:

    I don’t think we’re even allowed to mention the word “Bannockburn” next year.  Like “Braveheart”.  Severin Carrell and Alan Cochrane will lambast us for basing our entire campaign on these two words nevertheless.

  132. JLT says:

    John Donaldson says:

    How about Murrayfield as the venue for the final rally?
    ———————
    That’s not a bad idea.
    Plus side is, everyone gets in and can see the stage. I would guess the meeting point would be Haymarket Station. The only downside would be, if it was a march from there to the stadium, you would be shutting down the Trams for a good bit.
    I like it though!

  133. Jeannie says:

    Yeah, Stirling would be good.  I was there last weekend at the Bloody Scotland Crime Fiction Writers Festival and in between author talks went out and about for a cup of tea and to leave march and rally leaflets in various cafes, etc.  (Tip – if you go into a cafe with one of those menus that sits straight up on the middle of the table, it’s easy to put a leaflet inside the menu). 
     
    However, there’s only a certain amount of cafes and pubs although they do seem to cope with the annual Bannockburn march all right. On the other hand, because the town is relatively small, cohesion would be easier.  And if we make sure we coordinate with Scotrail to ensure they’re not doing trackwork, etc., Stirling is central and not too hard to get to.  It’s also got an iconic atmosphere.  The Runrig 30th anniversary concert on the castle esplanade 10 years ago was magical.  As David says, we could do the Bannockburn march in reverse.
     
    Oh and as Public Convenience out of Africa says, Stirling Uni has 11,500 students – though I doubt they all converge on Stirling at exactly the same time.
     
    Stirling might be a good venue, though – if not for next year’s September rally, then for another one maybe in the Spring?
     
     

  134. JLT says:

    Jim,
    the police say that 25% of those that marched didn’t attend the rally
    ——————
    That I must admit, I do agree with. In some of the pictures that I have seen, there were people even standing on the side of the pavement, either waving or holding flags.
    As I said, myself and quite a few others watched it move down the Bridges for 15 minutes. If you check my photo’s, you definitely get an idea of the distance. There is no way, that just around 10,000 marched. It was waaaay higher than that!!

  135. Morag says:

    I don’t fancy Murrayfield, because isn’t that all-seated?  I like being able to wander around and talk to folk and maybe buy a burger.  I’m there to socialise as much as to hear the speakers.
     
    Let’s just fill the Meadows.

  136. Arbroath 1320 says:

     
    Jeannie says:

    @Arbroath 1320 Sorry didn’t get to meet you, but glad to hear you got there ok.  Mibbes next time?
    Aye I’m sorry I didn’t get to meet you and everyone else. I’m even more gutted I missed out in being one of the first one hundred who got their hands on one of Stu’s coveted Wing’s badges! :(:
    Never mind as you say there is always next year.
    Woo Hoo! :P:
     
     
    Morag says:

    Ah, so the guy I thought was Arbroath, wasn’t.  I hope he wasn’t just someone there by accident, and I didn’t give one of the coveted silver badges to a total stranger!
     
    Don’t worry about it Morag you’d know if it was me, I don’t think I’m that easily forgotten! :D:
    Hopefully I’ll be able to meet everyone next year. You have all been warned!!! :lol:

     
    I was going to put up an unforgettable photo of me and a couple of ‘weel kent faces’ but I can’t get things working, I’ve never done this before and Windows * is driving me up the wall so I’m afraid you’ll have to just keep wondering! :lol:
     
     

  137. ScotsCanuck says:

    re :- Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus 
     
    …………… Oh Gawd !!!, he’s been at the catnip again !!! 

  138. tartanfever says:

    Morag – agree with you, although Murrayfield does have a huge amount of flat grassy areas outside the stadium (rugby pitches for training), it’s too far out of town and a bit awkward for people to then have to travel back in to get buses and trains etc.
     
    The Meadows are perfect – plenty of space, flat, easy access,  central location, amenities on hand (we could all head over to the Major’s pad and use his loo). From the same starting point on the High Street it would be a fairly short walk, which some may see as a disadvantage but those who are slightly older or like Arb1320 are in a wheelchair would find it manageable with a little help.

  139. Morag says:

    And there was me, for most of a day, having this wee warm glow inside because I thought I’d managed to make sure Arbroath got a silver badge.  Now I feel really silly.

  140. gillie says:

    What about The Meadows for next year, a large open flat area? Not that far from the Royal Mile and I do know they hold regular events there.

  141. Marcia says:

    Bella C has put up a lot of the speeches:
    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/09/22/calton-calling/
     

  142. gillie says:

    Tartanfever you beat me to it.

  143. tartanfever says:

    PCSA says :

    If anyone fractures after independence it will be the SNP – why would a party made up of big business, corporate, pro-monarchists and socialist, left wing republicans remain together once their overriding objective has been achieved? 

    Haven’t you just described the Labour Party there ?
     
    Gillie – great minds and all that

  144. JLT says:

    DonDeefLugs
    A special mention to JLT, Paul fi Broxburn, TonyMcC, Albalha and many more, thanks for being such fantastic company. I look forward to meeting up soon. A Wings night out?
    —————
    We could do, even if it was just a wee gathering back at the Albanach, say on a Saturday evening. October is no good (working quite a bit in that month), but November would be OK.

  145. scottish_skier says:

    Hmmm.
     
    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70054000/jpg/_70054049_70054048.jpg
    http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ZlKz8WR2RVc/mqdefault.jpg
     
    Ed Miliband vows to reduce non-EU immigration
     
    I guess he needs to get those voters who have transferred from Labour to UKIP back on side. A good 5% of the electorate or so.

  146. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “the natural party of choice – that’ll be the one with the majority government I’d guess”

    I’m talking historically, over a period of time, rather than making such an assessment based on one or two elections as you appear to be doing. A properly left wing Labour party are, without doubt, the natural party of choice for Scotland. 

  147. scottish_skier says:

    Sorry, link to BBC article
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24193771
     
    Ed Miliband vows to reduce non-EU immigration

  148. Marcia says:

    Tartanfever
    If it is Edinburgh again then the walk should be a carbon copy of the successful 1992 Scotland United Rally which started at the foot of Calton Hill at St Andrews House and ended up in the Meadows via Princes Street.

  149. Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:

    “The stewards scanned 20,000 people entering Calton Hill, the police say that 25% of those that marched didn’t attend the rally”

    But the police also said that the number who marched was 8,300 – meaning that if they’re right about 25% not attending the rally, then that aerial shot of Calton Hill with about 5,000 people would be broadly accurate wouldn’t it?

  150. gillie says:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4642053.stm
     
    In 2005 there was over 200,000 who marched to the Meadows for Make Poverty History. It seems ideal for 2014.

  151. scottish_skier says:

    The rose of socialism is now gone to be replaced by the union flag, as preferred by the far right.
     
    At least Ed is fading out the blue of the saltire (I’m sure it’s even more faded than last year ;-)), with the red of the St. Patrick’s cross already gone (N. Ireland becoming it’s own little country based on BSAS results). Facing up to reality. The one nation of England is his target.

  152. Sneddon says:

    Pubic- keep it up, I’m splitting ma sides

  153. Albert Herring says:

    I think Magrit’s suggesting “Scottish Labour” will continue to take orders from London after independence.

  154. Taranaich says:

    @muttley79: Glasgow City Council; enough said.  They would use every trick in the book to sabotage the arrangements, and make it as difficult as possible for the organisers.

    It depresses me, but agreed. GCC actually shut down a march for disability rights recently: they couldn’t stop people from “unofficially” marching, but neither did they go to the effort of ensuring security etc. Scum rises to the top.

    @Jeannie: Don’t think I’d like it to be in Glasgow next year.  But I’d love it to be in Stirling.

    Stirling would be fantastic: plenty of room, for one thing!

    @Morag: I don’t think we’re even allowed to mention the word “Bannockburn” next year.  Like “Braveheart”.  Severin Carrell and Alan Cochrane will lambast us for basing our entire campaign on these two words nevertheless.

    I understand what you mean. Nontheless, they’re already doing that, and they’ll continue to do so even if we never, ever mention the words. I refuse to allow these people to dictate what is or isn’t “appropriate” or “relevant” to the debate. They can throw their baseless, facile accusations of racism/anglophobia/parochialism all they like, and I won’t care a jot. This is too important to let them call the shots.

  155. Sneddon says:

    ScaredyCat I think it’s the type of rally where anyone objecting to breastfeeding is probably at the wrong rally.

  156. John Donaldson says:

    Re Murrayfield as a venue for the rally next year:
     
    Positives:

    (1) Comes with all required facilities
    (2) Great for tv
    (3) Great for lines of sight
    (4) Can be no dispute about numbers – imagine the power of all those “yes fill Murrayfield” reports…

    Alleged negatives:

    (1) Too “out of town”

    Response: it’s only a two mile walk from Princess Street Gardens. That is double the length of the previous march, true, but those who didn’t want to march could just head straight to the stadium, or join the march at some point along the route, such as Haymarket.

    (2) All seated and so doesn’t allow enough mingling.

    Response: not true. The set-up for gigs at Murrayfield involves people standing on the pitch, with the stage at one end. Google image search it to get an idea of what that would be like. More space for mingling than Calton Hill, that’s for sure…

  157. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Taranaich
    Correct. Nobody of any significance  in Scotland is listening to those clowns whoare playing the court jesters to an English court

  158. Jiggsbro says:

    Prior engagements, visiting ageing parents in wildly divergent parts of thatEngland, meant I couldn’t attend and add my 0.3 to the BBC estimate of attendance. I’ll be sure to be in the country next year for the vote and for the party on the 19th. Well done to all those who did make it and it’s wonderful to see the pictures.

  159. velofello says:

    Public Convenience frae Africa – Jeannie, how did you ever survive as a schoolteacher? And PCFA is a cheery wee soul isn’t he/she?
    i’m not keen on a stadium venue because the event could become a bit “stage managed”.I enjoyed the psychical challenge, and historical significance of Calton Hill, but my calf muscles ache today from standing for so long on a slope. Good for the achilles tendons I suppose.Stirling would be ideal, as Jeannie proposes, so much historical significance, and a superb setting.Since we all so much enjoyed Saturday’s rally why not double up for 2014? A Spring rally in Stirling and then Edinburgh in the Autumn.
    Glesga? Naw.
    And well done the organisers of Saturday’s rally. 

  160. CameronB says:

    Morag

    And there was me, for most of a day, having this wee warm glow inside because I thought I’d managed to make sure Arbroath got a silver badge.  Now I feel really silly.
     
    Never mind, you almost certainly made someone’s day. :)

    Public Convenience frae Africa :)

  161. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I don’t think there would be any trouble whatsover having a march and rally in Glasgow and I think we need a march and a rally in Glasgow.  The City Council could not find any legal reason to prevent it. If they tried they would do themselves very considerable damage.
     
    PS That arial photo looks strange. There are several areas in it very lightly filled which were completely filled when we got there. We were informed by stewards there was a halt in the proceedings for 15 minutes at the Hill (while we were still waiting to move off at the top of the High Street) when the marching was stopped at a point to before it reached the hill to allow disbled people to get up.
    It is also a fact that a very large part of the audience left immediately after Alex Salmond spoke which was unfortunate 

  162. Morag says:

    Never mind, you almost certainly made someone’s day.
     
    Nah, I’m thinking all I did was confuse the poor guy.  He did seem to be sitting fairly still and not trying to talk to people. Then he is engulfed in a pushing, reaching scrum of people, someone almost falls over him, then he has this wee silver badge in a wee plastic poke shoved into his hand. Probably had no idea what it was.
     
    Must have thought we were all completely out of our collective trees.

  163. david says:

    most of the coaches were leaving around 4.30, mr salmonds speech came just in time for lots

  164. muttley79 says:

    @david
    march could start from bannockburn.
     
    No, that would be a very bad mistake imo.  Bringing up history is not going to win us independence.  It would be a completely regressive and counterproductive move.  It would be needlessly alienating the English people (or people from England originally who now think of themselves as Scottish) who are part of the independence movement.  Let the British nationalists keep on mentioning Braveheart and Bannockburn.  We need to convince people about the future of Scotland, not the past.  It should be about taking responsibity, having confidence in ourselves, finally getting rid of Trident etc.  We should be proud of the past (well some of it anyway), but we have a chance to achieve independence in a much better way this time, through democratic politics.  Holding it at Stirling would all be about history, and I think we have to try and actually create our own piece now.
     
    On next year’s march I agree with Marcia on the route.  Start off from Calton hill (where we ended this year’s rally) and finish at the Meadows (where we started last year).  We would have come full circle.  Incidentially, Marcia what was the route in 1992?  Was it across the Bridges, up that long street to Greyfriars Bobby, and then past the Museum of Scotland and Edinburgh Uni, or was did it go along part of Princes Steet,  up over the Mound, and along past the George 4th bridge?  I hope they put the speakers on a stage in the middle if it is the Meadows, as it would be much easier for the crowd to access and get closer?     

  165. tartanfever says:

    Marcia – yes, that route from St Andrew House via Princes Street to the Meadows is the ultimate route.

    I just don’t see Edinburgh Council agreeing to it, hence why I suggested the shorter route from the High Street.
     
    Murrayfield – you want to use the stadium ? starting price is £50k I would bet.  And anyone who thinks the SRU would let an ‘independence rally’ onto their pitch is dreaming. No way will they want to get involved. They may be millions in debt but they’re not that daft. The SRU board would never agree to it.

    The problem with walking out to Murrayfield from the city centre is that you have to walk back, so one of the main roads into Edinburgh that could be running the trams by then would have to be restricted for hours as we walk out, have our speeches etc then all walk back in.

    What the council would inevitably say is “why don;t you just stay at Murrayfield ?’ Park buses and cars on the pitches/car park/road outside the stadium and not bother with the walk part, just the rally.

    Short though that march was yesterday, you went right into the heart of the city, and that in my book is a big plus.

  166. david says:

    dundee deserves a rally

  167. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    And just to remind a few folk. Our breakthroughs in Scotland – Motherwell, Hamilton and Glasgow Govan(twice) were in West Central Scotland which is why we need to have a huge demonstration in Glasgow. Our vote in the Glasgow and West Central area may well determine the referendum. Despite a vicious and virulent anti SNP campaign by the Glasgow based press in support of Labour the SNP still made a significant advance in Glasgow at the Council Elections. By next Spring the Labour Party’s grip on Glasgow will be disintregrating.  A lot of it went out the window of a back seat of a car in Linn Park. 
     
    Note
    Glasgow Council Elections 2007   Labour 69 SNP 4
    Glasgow Council Elections 2012   Labour 45 SNP 27

  168. Roger Terrett says:

    Having marched more than once previously, when a friend asked, before any figures were published, how many were there I replied “about 3 to 4 times what the police say”. On the button!

  169. Marcia says:

    Muttley79
    I remember on that cold crisp sunny day that we went along Princes Street then up the Mound but not sure after that. Some of the chaps ran into the loos in the Shopping area as the cold got to them. :)

  170. Morag says:

    PS That arial photo looks strange. There are several areas in it very lightly filled which were completely filled when we got there.
     
    Maybe, but one of the things you need to take into account is that the aerial view doesn’t allow you to appreciate the slope of the ground.  People were congregating where it was possible to find a reasonably flat place to stand or sit.  There were quite a number of areas where the slope was way too steep for that.
     
    Looking at that view, the parts that seem sparsely filled are, I think, the steep areas of grass, with the few bodies on them actually belonging to people who were climbing up or down at that particular moment going to or from the toilets or the food stalls or elsewhere.
     
    Another point is the official capacity of the hill, for which I have heard various estimates.  That is not intended to allow a crowd standing shoulder to shoulder over the entire area – or even the flat bits.  Yesterday, the crowd in front of the stage was very densely packed.  To have that density across the hill would have been grossly unsafe.  The tight packing in front of the stage and the large screens meant that people were comparatively spaced out in the peripheral areas.
     
    I was there last year, and it seemed to me to be a lot of people.  It was very crowded inside the Ross enclosure, down at the front.  The organisers said they clicked 9,500 people, but I don’t think there was ever 9,500 people there at any one time.  HandandShrimp said 7,000.  I wouldn’t quarrel with 8,000, or even the fabled 8,300 they said were there this time.
     
    Yesterday massively outstripped last year.  There were at least three times as many people there.  If that puts it at 25,000, so be it.  Except, I believe there were people who didn’t climb the hill, either leaving at that point or remaining to watch on the huge screen at the bottom.
     
    God only knows.  But anyone who seriously thinks that was 8,300 people needs their eyes tested.
     
    It seems the police originally set up their operation for 8,000 people, and that was the source of the very early BBC reports, which came long before the march had finished, and bear in mind the BBC don’t even seem to have had a camera on the hill.  Reports from people who were talking to police are indicating that officers were called in from Fife once it was realised there were several times that number present.  I don’t know if the police later revised their estimate or not, but some sources are reporting that the police confirmed 30,000 later.
     
    It’s all pretty academic.  As some of the trolls have confirmed, they’re prepared to rubbish 30,000 just as enthusiastically as they rubbish 8,000.  And they’ll rubbish 100,000 just as happily.  I noticed one thing which I’ve lost the source for.  Some trolls somewhere consistently declaring that Catalonia mobilised 20% of the Catalan population while only (I think) 0.002% of the Scottish population were on the hill.
     
    If we allow that there were 25,000, and we take the population as 5.4 million, that is actually 0.46% of the population.  Even 8,000 is 0.15% of the population.  So keen were they to denigrate the Yes campaign that their sums were out by a factor of 100.

  171. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

    Jeannie – it was a pleasure to meet you and your partner ;-) Thanks for the compliment … I lay the blame for my good character at the feet of my Father and Mother … they are entirely to blame ;-)

  172. Albert Herring says:

    And for votes

    Glasgow Council Elections 2007   Labour 67,341 SNP 46,947
    Glasgow Council Elections 2012   Labour 81,393 SNP 46,185

    Labour -14,052, SNP +789.

  173. Morag says:

    Are you sure you have that the right way round, May King?

  174. ianbeag says:

    I’ve often wondered why the Police understate crowd numbers at public events?  Is it possible that there is some ‘official’ ratio of police staffing which is dependent on the numbers attending and in order to keep police numbers and costs down to a minimum they are ready to massively understate attendance? 

  175. Jeannie says:

    @Gavin Barrie
     
    Eh…..that wasn’t my partner.  Mr. Jeannie now says I’ve got some explaining to do :-)

  176. Albert Herring says:

    Damn, wrong way round!
     

  177. Albert Herring says:

    Try again
    And for votes
    Glasgow Council Elections 2012   Labour 67,341 SNP 46,947
    Glasgow Council Elections 2007   Labour 81,393 SNP 46,185
    Labour -14,052, SNP +789.

  178. Marcia says:

    Albert
    The 2012 election had a lower turnout so that would be a good increase in vote share for the SNP and a fall for Labour.

  179. Iain says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    ‘A lot of it went out the window of a back seat of a car in Linn Park.’
     
    You’ve put a disturbing image in my mind!

  180. muttley79 says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
     
    I don’t think there would be any trouble whatsover having a march and rally in Glasgow and I think we need a march and a rally in Glasgow.  The City Council could not find any legal reason to prevent it. If they tried they would do themselves very considerable damage.

    No, unfortuantely I just think holding it in Glasgow would be too risky.  GCC would do everything in their power to make the organisers’ life a misery.  They would attempt as much disruption as they could get away with.  They would know all the local regulations and would come up with things at the last minute.  They would also probably be influenced by SLAB figures behind the scenes (Murphy, Curran, Lamont, Davidson, Alexander etc).  In addition, it would be close to the main elements of Loyalism and the Orange Order (particularly their hangers on) in Scotland.  Holding it in Glasgow would mean that it would be more accessible to extremists from Northern Ireland as well.  In an ideal world we would be able to hold it in Glasgow without thinking about it.  However, I just think it would be far too risky. 
     
    @tartanfever
     
    Yes, the SRU would not want any political rally, let alone an independence one, near Murrayfield.  No sporting organisation would.  I would imagine the SRU is as Conservative as you could get.   

  181. Sneddon says:

    ianbeag  bang on the button and politically usually to minimise the support for the ‘protestors’  Not so ij this case I think.  They’ll be wanting a bigger budget for next year.

  182. Morag says:

    I’ve often wondered why the Police understate crowd numbers at public events?  Is it possible that there is some ‘official’ ratio of police staffing which is dependent on the numbers attending and in order to keep police numbers and costs down to a minimum they are ready to massively understate attendance?
     
    It seems that is exactly it.  They’re not going to give out a number that is grossly in excess of what they have catered for in case they are criticised for being poorly prepared.  I don’t know why they only catered for 8,000 this time because anyone could have predicted there would be more than that, but then we all know there are cutbacks.

    It has been reported that at some point in the proceedings reinforcements were called in from Fife.  It is also possible that the police estimate of the numbers was increased later in the day, but that was poorly reported.

    I’ve had a closer look at the aerial shot, and indeed, all the bits of green that seem empty are steep slopes.  The “habitable” areas are all well filled.  The camera is also a lot further away than you realise.  If you enlarge the picture it soon degenerates into jpeg artefact, and the area in front of the stage is just a blurred mass of bodies.  It’s uncountable even if anyone did fancy trying it.

    An interesting thought experiment.  Look at the Russia Today 5-second clip where the camera pans from about a line from the stage to the monument, left-wise to take in most but not all of the crowd in that direction.  Hold that panorama in your head, then mark out what a small area of the aerial photograph has been covered.

    This was a LOT of people.

  183. Sneddon says:

    Maybe a series of mini marches around the country then the major one the week before the referendum.  It would be ironic as that’s the model the OO use :)

  184. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Hope this works… some pics from the event
    http://www.flickr.com//photos/16375650@N07/sets/72157635771925054/show/
     

  185. John Donaldson says:

    @tartanfever
     
    If you’re planning on having a major rally anywhere, it’s gonna cost money, at least Murrayfield comes with purpose built facilities.
    Also, it’s not clear on what grounds the SRU could refuse a massive hire like the independence rally 2014.

    And in terms of walking back, given that they don’t have to close the road for people to get home after rugby matches, it’s not clear why they’d have to close it for people to get home after the rally. In fact, it’ll be easier than it’s every been once the trams are up and running as the stadium will have a dedicated stop – they could even put on extra services…

    If you want to get tens of thousands of people to stand in a field for hours, you need to provide loads of major facilities, pray it doesn’t rain so that a mud-bath is avoided, and it’s extremely difficult to get incontrovertible proof of numbers.

    Murrafield avoids all those issues… and comes with the other positive of being very press, especially tv, friendly…

  186. Oneironaut says:

    Nice aerial shot there :)
    Was that taken by the flying cam gadget?  Or by whoever that was in the plane who looked like he was about to do a kamikaze run on the police helicopter at one point!
     
    Definitely a great day out.  Can’t wait for the next one :)
     
    @Ianbrotherhood
    Sorry I didn’t respond to your question on the last post, only just noticed it.
    Yep, I am who you think I am ;)

  187. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Morag,  I don’t know if the football game in the capital sooked up additional resource ?
     

  188. Fatweegee says:

    I’m in at least 1 :-)

  189. scaredy cat says:

    @ Sneddon
    I agree that no-one should object to the lady feeding her baby, I was really thinking of her comfort. Anyone who has ever breastfed will know that a bit of back support is very welcome.

  190. muttley79 says:

    @John Donaldson
     
    Where is the money going to come from though?  As far as I am aware the organisers are volunteers.  I also get the impression that Yes Scotland are not exactly flush with funds. I honestly can’t see the SRU wanting a rally of this political nature held on their premises either.  In fact I would be amazed if they even considered it.  The only things lacking from this year’s event was that there was not more toilets, and that it was difficult to see the stage if you were not at the front.  The organisation was much improved in general from last year imo.

  191. Morag says:

    Nice aerial shot there
    Was that taken by the flying cam gadget?  Or by whoever that was in the plane who looked like he was about to do a kamikaze run on the police helicopter at one point!
     
    The aerial shot linked to at the head of the thread must have been from the helicopter, which I presume was police.  The wee quadricopter drone the National Collective guy was launching couldn’t have got that high.  I don’t think it would have been from a plane.

  192. Morag says:

    As far as next year goes, I think we should leave it to the organisers to get on with it.  They haven’t made too bad a fist of it so far let’s face it, and I’m sure they’ll have learned from mistakes like the number of loos.
     
    We can’t go back up the hill because it won’t be big enough.  So that’s out.  Somewhere flatter would be good, if it can’t be a natural amphitheatre.  Personally I don’t want to be constrained and constricted into a seated stadium, and I don’t want to be out of town.  I imagine the organisers probably feel the same.
     
    I’m confident they can come up with the goods, and I suspect the goods will look like the Meadows.  If only the police will take them seriously and acknowledge from the start that there may well be north of 50,000 people showing up.
     
    The city has hosted marches that size and bigger in the past.  It can do it again.  Maybe if the mood has changed and the polls are better and people are looking forward to the vote, attitudes will improve.

  193. Sneddon says:

    scaredycat – sorry I mistook your meaning.  

  194. CameronB says:

    Where is the money going to come from though?
    We have a year to crowd source the funds, and I would want an invoice and 30 to 90 days credit. :)

  195. Clydebuilt says:

    I know people who didn’t get on to the hill. They were stopped by the police.
    No idea how many that  left down on the road. We’ve been told that the hill capacity was 20, 000 so did the police stop people going up onto the hill because. it was full?.

  196. scottish_skier says:

    Ok, the march was the feckin business.
     
    Now where are the WoS poll results?
     
    :-)

  197. CameronB says:

    I forgot there might be EU grants available. :) :)

  198. farrochie says:

    Here’s my photies. Wings flag and the Rev visible on about 11th photie.
    Jimmy Parker
    @farrochie

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y2imm4lptks6opq/Suz1IJYLvA

  199. Davy says:

    Hey, “Public Convinence Fa Africa”, I asked you yesterday if you were Duncan Hothersall using an alias and you never answered? so come on fess up.
     
    Your style of writing is exactlly the same, with the twisting everything to make an answer that suits yourself no matter what the truth is.
     
    Alba Gu Brath.
     

  200. scaredy cat. says:

    @Sneddon
    No worries. I probably wasn’t being clear.
    O/T for those who missed it, the radio 5 debate highlights on R5 now.

  201. EdinScot says:

    Apparantly, it has also been agreed that Celtic football club will be using Murrayfield for their home games next season 2014 as Parkhead is being used for the Commonwealth games but im not sure if its  just for two games (Parkhead being used for the opening & closing ceremonies?) or for the whole of the season.   The meadows allows us a city centre location that can easily cope with any number of people and gives us a prominent route right through the main city centre of Edinburgh.

  202. ianbrotherhood says:

    @oneironaut –
     
    Aha!
     
    Good stuff mister – keep ‘em coming!

  203. Alba4Eva says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU9nAs67dV4
     
    Enjoy my very good friends.  I love you all :)

  204. pmcrek says:

    Morag,
    Their sums also include hundreds of thousands of 6 month old babies, people in jail, folks physically unable to travel and anybody that happened to have to go to work yesterday.

  205. ianbrotherhood says:

    @kendomacaroonbar-
     
    Yep – it works fine.
    Some great shots, and clearest yet of the SSP banner I was helping to hold. Although no part of my body has yet appeared in any image, it’s the closest I’ve got to evidence that I was, indeed, in Edinburgh, on that hill, and not just awol getting bladdered somewhere else – so, cheers!

  206. gordoz says:

    Just back from the March and the Hill event, what a blast and a privilege.  Had a great family day out and saw the WoS flag on several occasions but always disappeared when I got closer. Got as close as about 30 feet on the Royal Mile so not bad (Saw plenty of WoS T shirts though and said hi to a few folk). Spent most of my time in discussions defending WoS as it still seems to have a bad rep with some, (not SNP supporters though funnily enough – they love as it hits the money in their view).

    Bumped into the following Politi persons on the day (& nice to see our side mix with the support)

    Kenny Gibson MSP, Hamza Youseff MSP, Fiona Hyslop MSP, Colin Fox, Alan Grogan, Gerry Hassan, Gil Paterson MSP

    Spent most of the the March along side Christian Allard MSP (What a laugh the guy is typical Frenchman full of life; could the same be said of Labour ?)

    Daughter was on the first feed to the YES website so she was well chuffed (girl in Scotland goalkeepers Top)!

    On the figures for the march (it will easily be 20,000 and will be proven).  The ‘early’ Arial plates used by MSM (Record) have been cleverly edited and taken as early snapshots prior to the march and also before the height of the attendance during Alex Salmonds speech. The records picture was taken ½ hr after we got there, nearer ½ way through not any way near the full total.  

    Luckily I was not drinking and charted the densely populated areas at the speech. With an unscientific sampling of 3 persons per m2 (good enough for initial analysis) this easily gives in excess of 20,000 at the time (seriously).

     So wait for the official YES picture from the mini copter throughout for a true picture of the numbers (Like last year).

    Also I am informed that Police excluded spectator’s even Yes supporters from their figures.  Ie – if you were not on the street you were not involved in the march (?) Contrary to Police nonsense almost everyone made the Hill. Met an elderly woman on the hill who had just gone through a hip op. Wondered if no could say similar ( but they cant do marches – they get enough coverage anyway.  

    So although I am concerned of the seemingly bias accounting of the Police perhaps its  what we all expected from them anyway (sadly). But some cops are supporters so don’t want to labour the point.

    Also no reporting of the mixing of Celtic, Hibs and Rangers fans who support the cause noted (no good news in that then for MSM.. oh  no  ).
    But otherwise many positive outcomes not least the input of Alan Bisset, what a Star .. No campaign have no one of that calibre !!!!

    PS :
    Do hope people are not taken in by the constant carping of the ‘pompous sounding roman individual’ steer well clear ‘This one pops up again and again on other sites’  always slates SNP; either  a ‘loose cannon’ or  some kind of attention seeker.

    Avoid like the plague.
    Proud of all who attended or supported the event. Those who couldn’t  … be there next year you missed out !!!

  207. Morag says:

    Hey, “Public Convinence Fa Africa”, I asked you yesterday if you were Duncan Hothersall using an alias and you never answered? so come on fess up.

    Your style of writing is exactlly the same, with the twisting everything to make an answer that suits yourself no matter what the truth is.
     
    Almost certainly not.  Apart from anything else, Duncan himself in a rare moment of lucidity acknowledged that the numbers on the hill looked like 20,000 and the police routinely underestimate marches to match the number of officers they decided to commit to policing it.

    And Stu is only going to get cranky if you keep pressing that point.  I too wish PDSA would fuck off permanently and stop polluting these threads, but it’s Stu’s call and we have to leave him to it.

  208. cath says:

    he City Council could not find any legal reason to prevent it. If they tried they would do themselves very considerable damage.”
     
    I agree that Glasgow is way too risky. There was a small demo last year in Glasgow for asylum seekers at which various trade union and political figures were speaking, including Patrick Harvey and Humza Yousaf. It was legal, entirely peaceful and organised with the council.
     
    Yet the speeches were drowned out by a police helicopter, and mid-way through we were all told we had to move off George Square, quickly and by one particular route because the SDL/EDL were having a march that was coming onto the square. That was an entirely non-organised, non-legal gathering, specifically done to harrass the asylum seekers and those at the demo. But rather than preventing that handful of thugs from causing trouble, they were marched ONTO the square by police as we were all shoved off with dire warnings about not going the wrong way “because there might be trouble”.
     
    Make of that what you will regarging demos that oppose anything Glasgow City Council is doing.
     
    The route from Calton Hill back to the meadows would be fantastic. As has been said, it would be going full circle, but having picked up tens of thousands more supporters along the way. That would be a good image.
     
    Also, marches and rallies are all well and good but it might be better to put different kinds of events on in other cities. Something like a big concert in Glasgow would be more inclusive and less overtly “political rally”. That’s what we need to start doing next year is just getting people interested, pushing out information, creating a buzz around the referendum.

  209. CameronB says:

    ianbrotherhood
     
    Sorry I missed you. Could have asked you opinion re. the coiffure I am mostly wearing this week.

  210. HandandShrimp says:

    Can we not all pretend there was only the six of us up there and keep PCSA happy?
     
    I see Johann has used her Brighton speech to attack Salmond. It is now official, the woman is a stalker (OK a very dull stalker but definitely obsessed)  :)

  211. Fergus H says:

    About 2pm (did March, not Rally) I chatted to a policewomen near John Lewis.  Her shift was nearly over and she was concerned she would be called up Calton Hill to assist.  From her comments I got the feeling there had been some reallocation of Police earlier in the day, and she was worried about more.

    BTW, we started at the “Heart of Midlothian” and it was 12:40pm before we started moving, and when we passed the big screen at the foot of the hill (about 1:15pm?) Elaine C Smith had already started.
     

  212. cath says:

    She also called “nationalism” a virus. I think she means anyone on the Yes side, and any SNP voter. I’m not sure which powers, specifically, you’re able to want without becoming a virus in Labour’s eyes, but if you’re a devo-maxer, watch your step.

  213. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Wonder if we could get some kind of ‘Woodstock’ event organised :-) 
    I’ve still got me tie dyed Tank Top T shirt… seriously though, we just need to think big and capitalise on the zeitgeist gleaned from a successful rally ?
     

  214. Morag says:

    With an unscientific sampling of 3 persons per m2 (good enough for initial analysis) this easily gives in excess of 20,000 at the time (seriously).  So wait for the official YES picture from the mini copter throughout for a true picture of the numbers (Like last year).
    Also I am informed that Police excluded spectator’s even Yes supporters from their figures.  Ie – if you were not on the street you were not involved in the march (?) Contrary to Police nonsense almost everyone made the Hill.
     
    I have to admit to being almost totally confused.  I was told in advance that only 12,000 would be allowed on the hill (I even emailed Stu to warn himto get the Wings party near the front just in case).  Someone else said 15,000, but 12,000 was apparently the going rate.  And they had every opportunity to count people in, at the single entrance gate.

    Up there, though, the sheer mass of people was easily three times what it was last year.  It’s not hard to tell the difference, looking at the photos of the two events.  And bearing in mind that the photos of the Ross show almost everyone in one shot, while no one photo on the hill could show more than a section.

    Some people say the police did close the hill and some were forced to watch from the bottom.  Others say people chose to watch the screen at the bottom rather than make the climb (though it was a stroll, really, on the main road).  Others say everyone who wanted in got in (indeed, as some people were leaving early, surely the police would let latecomers in to compensate).

    I could easily believe there were 25,000 people up there.  I’m just confused by this “we close the hill after 12,000″ story that seems very pervasive.  If that was only 12,000, then there could have been nowhere near 15,000 altogether.  But that’s not what my own eyes, or the eyes of people practised in counting crowds (or birds) are telling me.

  215. Gallowglass says:

    I’m also on 10-minute moderation?

  216. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

    @jeannie

    Whoops, see the bother you get into when you presume ;-) *blush* :-)

  217. Morag says:

    HandandShrimp said:
    Can we not all pretend there was only the six of us up there and keep PCSA happy?
     
    Well, you’re only pretending to have been there!  You said you met me but I wasn’t aware of it, and I specially wanted to say hi, too.

  218. Morag says:

    I’m also on 10-minute moderation?
     
    For pity’s sake, when will people figure out that Stu doesn’t put anybody on moderation!  The way you get “moderated” is to mis-type your name so Akismet thinks you’re a new poster and sets you aside to be checked for spam.

  219. ianbrotherhood says:

    @CameronB-
     
    Bummer I didn’t get to see your hair.
     
    I’m still amazed that I didn’t meet any Wingers at all. Mind you, on the march, not that long into it, as we turned left and started downhill (the George-something bridge maybe?) I thought I heard someone behind me, on the left-hand pavement, saying my surname. I turned to look, but just too busy, thought no more on it – Richie Venton (veteran SSP man) then came alongside me and said he’d just been asked by someone if I was around – by that time it was too late, and in any event, I had the end of a banner-pole lodged in the ‘johnny-pocket’ of my jeans and was in no position to track back. No idea who it was – could it have been your good self?
     
    No worries – I look forward to seeing you, and your hair, at the earliest possible opportunity.

  220. CameronB says:

    Cath
    I hope JoLo didn’t get the idea of a “virus” from myself. I can’t remember which thread it was on, but I remember saying I hoped Labour for Independence might provide the antiseptic needed to rid Scotland’s body politic of the ‘foreign’ infection commonly referred to as the ‘Scottish cringe’. :(

  221. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Gallowglas,
    When you post the system allows you 10 minutes to edit/modify/delete the post ..and displays a countdown timer. If someone else has posted immediately after you, then you lose that 10 minute opportunity to edit.  I’m guessing that’s what you’re seeing ?

  222. Morag says:

    About 2pm (did March, not Rally) I chatted to a policewomen near John Lewis.  Her shift was nearly over and she was concerned she would be called up Calton Hill to assist.  From her comments I got the feeling there had been some reallocation of Police earlier in the day, and she was worried about more.
     
    I suppose they have to do it, but what a waste of manpower.  All they needed was enough coverage to be able to spot pickpocketing and minor offences like that (though I don’t think anything like that actually happened), and to have a handle on what was going on in case someone in the middle of it all had a heart attack or something.
     
    Although some leaflets and things got dropped, I didn’t even see anyone littering!  Near the end I went to find a bin for my own apple core and crisp packet, and found the only bin overflowing and neat-ish stacks of litter all around it.
     
    Policing that?  Nice work if you can get it.
     
    I once went on a march in London.  It was against the Criminal Justice Bill, and it started on the Embankment and ended at Hyde Park.  There were a lot of dodgy people about.  Marching through the streets was quite intimidating because of the behaviour of some of the marchers.  I was being urged to hold the SNP poster high, as it transpired that we were the only political party with any MPs that had a presence there at all.  We were joined by a couple of rather forlorn Plaid Cymru people and (amazingly) by about three members of my (English) reading group who had turned up unbeknownst to me and saw me with the SNP contingent at the Embankment.
     
    As I said, it was quite scary on the march, but when we got to Hyde Park it was fine, sat on the grass and chatted, bought ice creams from the van nearby.  Nobody was paying a blind bit of attention to the speakers.  Then we decided to go home.  As I was half way to Hyde Park underground station with one of my English friends, a cavalry charge of mounted police galloped up Park Lane and laid into the “protesters” who were still there.
     
    I’ve been on several protests in Scotland and they’ve all been law-abiding and non-threatening, even the shouty ones.  That London one was seriously scary though.  The first part because of some of the protesters, the later part because of the cops.  I suppose that’s the attitude that calls for more cops to reinforce a larger-than-expected crowd.  But it’s money for old rope.

  223. ianbrotherhood says:

    Just looked again at kendomacaroonbar’s wee slide show (8.55) – I think I recognise the dude in the third-last image, with the gregs.
    Did you pause outside, before re-entering the Albanach (approx 5.20) to extinguish a cigarette in our ash-tray, saying something like ‘I don’t want a fine for discarding it in the street.’
    I was the happy, devilishly handsome (albeit knackered) camper, wearing a pin-striped black shirt, who retorted, with typically rapier-like wit, ‘Aye, no bother pal‘.
    Whosoe’er ye be, you’re the only Winger I met.
     

  224. Mosstrooper says:

    Sorry Morag, there seems to be some confusion, I am constantly on a 10 minute moderation and I can assure you that my name is never  mis-typed. My assumption was that this is some standard procedure, is it not so?
    Had a great time at the march and hill, got a wee badge (not a silver one) and met lots of old friends and some new ones. All in all a great day. 

    There you go, another 10 minute moderation, Please explain

  225. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Cracking bunch of photos farochie. 
     
    I think the last photo is especially interesting. I say this because it looks awfully like the exact same spot I was at earlier in the rally, from the very start actually.
     
    Unfortunately for us we were informed that this was the emergency exit and had to be kept clear so I, along with a few other wheelchair users were manoeuvred back down the hill and up the steep rise to get around the back of the highest point, ostensibly to get to the seated area. Jeez what a palava that was!  I suspect we were supposed to be in front of the pillars in your photo number 8.
     
    Unfortunately having been pushed, dragged up the grassy bank at the columns there was no space so we retreated back down the hill and watched/listened to the majority of speeches etc from behind the columns watching one of big screens.
     
    Still I’m rather upset at all the palava about moving from our original space though, to the right of the stage and having a clear view of the big screen at the left of the stage.

  226. muttley79 says:

    @cath and HandandShrimp
     
    Lamont is a British nationalist no doubt.  She claimed to be a socialist last week in the Scottish Parliament, but what kind of a socialist would come out with right-wing Tory talk of a  “Something for nothing society?”  Whether she recognises this or not is debateable, but she is first and foremost a supporter of the preservation of the British state.  Of course, most of SLAB (Labour for independence are obviously excluded from this) cannot admit to being British nationalists.  If they did that they would immediately invalidate all their bile and venom against “the nationalists” over the last fifty years or so (only to be applied against the SNP in their minds).  This would just not do, and so cannot be admitted, despite being more and more obvious.  Their so-called ‘internationalism’ conventially seems to end at the White Cliffs of Dover…      

  227. Morag says:

    Kendomacaroonbar said:
    When you post the system allows you 10 minutes to edit/modify/delete the post ..and displays a countdown timer. If someone else has posted immediately after you, then you lose that 10 minute opportunity to edit.  I’m guessing that’s what you’re seeing ?
     
    I think that’s your answer.  You’re seeing the 10-minute countdown window we all get to allow us to fix typos or have second thoughts about what we posted.  It’s not moderation.

  228. Jimbo says:

    @CameronB
     
    Every time I see Lamont with that hairstyle she puts me in mind of  this: 
    http://tinyurl.com/nuryuzn
     

  229. Hetty says:

     That arial photo looks strange. There are several areas in it very lightly filled which were completely filled when we got there.
     
    It looks like the aerial photo someone has linked fairly early on in these posts was taken near to the end of the rally, or even abobe photoshopped…we stayed to the end as there was a very good speech by a professor of economics, about the economics of Independence, did anyone get his name? It was very annoying to have the helicopter which made it diificult to hear some of the speeches. I would like then to see the real aerial photos because they were there most of the time,,,

    Sorry, I spotted the great WOS flag but by then was ensconced on the grass with son and pal eating oakcakes, then lost sight! It was a fantastic day and if everyone who could not make it or did not know about it could have come along it would have been even bigger!  I hope in a way we ( re WOS) can do more gatherings periodically, what about a social/picnic or something sometime?
    all the best
    hetty

  230. Morag says:

    My post at 10.34 pm was intended as a reply to Mosstrooper at 10.25, who posted thus:

    Sorry Morag, there seems to be some confusion, I am constantly on a 10 minute moderation and I can assure you that my name is never  mis-typed. My assumption was that this is some standard procedure, is it not so?
    There you go, another 10 minute moderation, Please explain.

    It’s not moderation, it’s an edit window.  Time to fix your typos.  But you don’t always get it – another post coming after yours closes the window, and sometimes it closes without another visible post, I guess possibly because a spam post came in that wasn’t displayed but it still triggers the counter to stop.

  231. ianbrotherhood says:

    @mosstrooper-
    It’s not ‘moderation’ mister/missus – I’ve just read your comment a minute after posting my last. It’s just a 10-min chance for you to change how it appears (e.g. if you spot any howlers, want to change spacing etc) but if someone else posts during that period then the chance is gone, passes to them. (As far as I understand it – right or no?)
    Morag’s been beefing about it for a while, understandably, ’cause it’s a Catch-22 right enough – can’t have posters retrospectively changing statements when the discussion has already moved on. It would quickly cause chaos. Downer is that you can sometimes end-up posting a clumsy comment you’d rather have spent more time on. Upside? This site doesn’t get the ping-pong exchanges and angry slanging-matches you see elsewhere.

  232. Wee folding bike says:

    I was spotted, more than once, probably thanks to my piratical head gear. 
    Usually I get spotted as the guy on the bike. 

  233. JLT says:

    Hi Morag,
     
    I agree with you. Your assessment on the numbers looks spot on. I think 20,000 would be about right. Definitely, way more than 8,500. I know what I saw with my own eyes from the hill, when looking at the Bridges, for a good 10 minutes plus!

    First, a lot of folk would have joined in, but may not have been bothered about going up the hill. Some folk, may have turned up for initial support, but then followed other plans to go shopping, pub, whatever! There are photo’s showing folk with flags, standing on the pavements and watching as bystanders. A few may have joined in, but left before the hill, either to go to the pub, shopping or whatever. Many may have just watched, but didn’t bother joining the rally.

    Secondly, don’t quote me on this, but I have a very vague recollection of some official saying that it was not advisable for pushchairs to be taken up there. I was near the front (amongst the first 500 to a 1000). Now, if prams were being ‘discouraged’, then that would remove another percentage.  I honestly can’t recall seeing pushchairs getting pushed around on the hill. I would need to scan all the photos again to confirm, but …the hill wasn’t exactly flat! It was clumpy with divots, and the hill sides were slightly treacherous …especially near the vans and stalls!

    Some folk may have headed home at the base of the hill, because of the kids they had with them, or they had other commitments.
    Thirdly, the folk on the hill are hard core Nationalists. What I mean by that, is that the folk on the hill are right into Politics. We go deep into it. For many folk, who may have marched, they may have walked, because, they can’t be bothered listening to speeches. They are Nationalists, but may consider spending their time doing other stuff.

    Fourthly, yhe one question I suppose is …did anyone get turned away because the hill was full? If one person says ‘Yes, they got turned away’, then that question is also answered. We can definitely say, that many did not get on the hill due to the hill being ‘full’.
     
    I don’t know if this helps, but it might knock off a good five thousand if the reasons above are reasonable!

  234. CameronB says:

    The riot squad was shipped in from England last year. I got the fright of my life when heading to the march from my flat in Buccleuch Street. The whole street was lined both sides with heavy duty riot vans and perhaps a legion of 6′ plus gentlemen dressed in body armour from head to toe.
     
    I asked them if they really thought their presence was either necessary or welcome, and those that replied sounded Thames Valley to me.

  235. Morag says:

    Stu says he can’t get the software to keep the edit window open if another post comes in.  I can see where the designers are coming from, maybe not wanting someone to change a post and thus make a mockery of a reply, but for goodness sake, ten minutes wouldn’t make any serious difference.
     
    But it seems to be a feature of the software and it can’t be changed.  It’s just annoying to see a howler, try immediately to fix it, and be stopped by another post – seen or unseen.

  236. The Man in the Jar says:

    Those troubled by persistent Romans should watch this video. Wise words from the wonderful Mat McGinn. :lol:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Uk-QpOHBA

  237. Morag says:

    I agree with you. Your assessment on the numbers looks spot on. I think 20,000 would be about right. Definitely, way more than 8,500. I know what I saw with my own eyes from the hill, when looking at the Bridges, for a good 10 minutes plus!
     
    The organisers were saying 30,000.  At that point I really can’t estimate, because the crowd was so huge and so fragmented by the topography of the hill.  Certainly, people who have tried to count the actual hill or the march itself have independently come in at the 20,000 to 25,000 region.  And some people obviously marched without attending the rally, and some came to the rally without marching.
     
    It all makes perfect sense, especially when you compare it to last year’s crowd which was probably of the 7,000 to 8,000 variety.  I’m just thoroughly confused by all the messages saying that the cops would not have let more than 12,000 on the hill.  Well, the crowd on the hill seemed to be way above 12,000 to me.  I just don’t get it.

  238. ianbrotherhood says:

    @mosstrooper-
     
    Witness the duplication in the last comments, from Morag and meself – we’re saying the same thing, but ‘posting’ slightly apart. You also have to take into account how long someone spends writing a comment before they post it – in the interim they can’t see what else may have been submitted.

    On some of the busy threads (which are certainly becoming more frequent), if I’ve spent a fair bit of time on a comment, perhaps looking for links/quotes etc to include, there may have been a dozen or more comments posted and ‘published’ by the time I hit ‘submit’, but I won’t be able to see them until I’ve done so.

    Some people don’t like it, but, hey-ho, so it goes..

  239. Morag says:

    Those troubled by persistent Romans should watch this video. Wise words from the wonderful Mat McGinn.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Uk-QpOHBA
     
    Hahahahaha!  I’ve heard that simply told as a joke.  Brilliant!

  240. Castle Rock says:

    Some cracking photos of the rally, smiley happy faces everywhere.  You just don’t get that with the Bitter Together lot.
     
    @Wee folding bike: I’ve had the same Raleigh bike for over 18 years and it’s never let me down once but after reading your posts over the years I’m sorely temped to buy a Brompton – you’ve just about converted me at last!

  241. cath says:

    We commented on the lack of police early on, on the High Street. There seemed to be hardly any at all, very light policing. So maybe they did just severely underestimate the numbers. It was all incredibly good natured though, despite some of us starting off in the pub at 10:30 (I used my jet-lag and out of synch body clock as an excuse for that!) Also no sign at all of any NO types trying to disrupt or cause problems.

  242. Jeannie says:

    @gavin barrie
     
    Ah, you’re all right….he knows fine well nobody else would put up with me :-)

  243. Morag says:

    Also no sign at all of any NO types trying to disrupt or cause problems.

    Or hand out leaflets…. ;)

  244. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Pls forward to as many peeps as possible and let’s get the website buzzin !

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/vczaKv4o6ks

  245. Morag says:

    And for those hallucinating about nonexistent moderation, who do you think is doing it?  Where do you think Stu is right now?  On a train heading for Bath, I imagine.  He hasn’t been seen or heard of for about six hours.  He’s in no position to be playing nursemaid to this thread, and there’s nobody else to do it.

  246. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Just in case anyone’s forgotten, Nicola did say in her speech that there were 30,000 on the march.
     
    If I remember correctly it went something like:
     
    “Last year they told us there were 5,500 on the march when we had 10,000. This year for the attention of the media there are not 10,000, not 20,000 but 30,000 on the march today!”

  247. HandandShrimp says:

    Hey Morag, we met beside Stu, but it was kind of hectic. I was the chap that said I also lived in Bath for a while and we talked about when you moved back to Scotland having also worked in England.
     
    *Now not sure he was talking to Morag after all* 

  248. kendomacaroonbar says:

    bollox… ( how do you get to embed a you choob video )
    here’s anither wan
    http://youtu.be/vczaKv4o6ks

  249. Morag says:

    HandandShrimp said:
    Hey Morag, we met beside Stu, but it was kind of hectic. I was the chap that said I also lived in Bath for a while and we talked about when you moved back to Scotland having also worked in England.

    *Now not sure he was talking to Morag after all*

    I do remember that conversation, but I had no idea at all who I was talking to.

  250. Betsy says:

    Some wee rallies in the run up to the big one next year would be god. However I don’t think it fair or feasible to ask the organisers of the national event to do the honours. If anyone in Glasgow thinks it a good idea I’d be happy to be involved. 

  251. HenBroon says:

    Morag when i am doing a post on most sites I tend to firstly use Notepad to form my post, this then allows you to keep an eye on the site by hitting F5 every so often and refreshing it to see what has been said, especially if you are destroying Trolls, which is very easy but takes a bit of composition and it is handy to keep the Notepad on file if just for the day, so you can re post as I do when deleted. You can also take your time and do not need to worry about getting timed out.
     
    Having had time to think it through it would be a huge mistake to take this rally to a stadium as it would give the powers that be even more power over us and seek to disrupt the rally the way I think they did on Saturday. I think Glasgow green has to be considered.

  252. HandandShrimp says:

    Ah, someone introduced us but I am not sure who it was now…it wasn’t all that easy to get round and talk to people and the speeches were distractingly good.

  253. Morag says:

    I could do the Notepad thing, but that’s not really the point unless it’s really important to see if someone else has posted before you.  It’s being able to edit once you see the post in the thread that’s the issue – it’s only then you spot the formatting problems, and often the typos.

  254. Arbroath 1320 says:

    I must admit I love all the photo’s folks are putting up.
    Still haven’t seen myself. :lol:
    Never mind, I have seen myself in the big photo in the Sunday Herald, well not so much me as my hat with my partner pushing me and looking to her left talking to her daughter in front of the women for Independence banner. :D:

  255. Paula Rose says:

    20 000 was the capacity for the hill, my daughter was at the end of the march and advised by the police (as she had my two wee grandchildren with her) that she may be better watching the speeches on the screen.

  256. ianbrotherhood says:

    @TMITJ-
    Brilliant link there. Cheers.

    McGinn’s such a treasure, if for no other reason than his diction is so good – every song is a good story told clearly.

    Met his nephew once, who owns McGinn’s (right at the Argyle St/Hope St entrance to Glasgow Central) and he was sound. It’s a great pub as well, if you’re not into the whole ‘cafe’ culture which seems to be chasing ordinary punters out of the city-centre. (Haven’t been there for a couple of years right enough – hope it’s still going.)

  257. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Arbroath 1320, I thought I had met and spoken with you, sadly not the case but I’m certain you look very much like your photie :-)

  258. Arbroath 1320 says:

    kendomacaroonbar says:

    Arbroath 1320, I thought I had met and spoken with you, sadly not the case but I’m certain you look very much like your photie 

    I think I do though as I say all you see in the Sunday Herald is the black cowboy hat I was wearing my partner gets to lay claim to all the prestige in that photo. :D:

  259. ianbrotherhood says:

    @kendomacaroonbar-
     
    re
    http://youtu.be/vczaKv4o6ks
    Did you do this? It’s brilliant – epic music!!

  260. Morag says:

    HandandShrimp, for my sins, Stu “got” me in the earlier thread where he posted his own photos.  Fourth one down, on the right, with Christian Allard in the background.
     
    So, were you talking to me?

  261. Pedro says:

    Wasn’t there yesterday, or last year. Will be there next year. :)

  262. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Ian,  Yip that was my small effort to attract people to the website… made another one just as a promo teaser.
    http://youtu.be/uLdoGj_ZiaE

  263. HandandShrimp says:

    On typos it is a bit of a pain that you lose your 10 minutes if someone posts a second after you do but I haven’t the patience or time to craft them in Word or something first.

  264. Wee folding bike says:

    Castle rock,
    There is a yahoo mailing list called Bromptontalk. Anything you want to know about them should be covered there. In Edinburgh you can go to BikeTrax, Tollcross. Elsewhere there is Evans. Dales in Glasgow are an official dealer but they don’t seem to sell many. Brompton don’t allow mail order sales anymore.

    Some things wear out more quickly. In winter the chains only last me 500 miles so I tend to use another bike if possible. Other than faster wear on tyres, rims and transmission they do a great job. 

  265. Morag says:

    On typos it is a bit of a pain that you lose your 10 minutes if someone posts a second after you do but I haven’t the patience or time to craft them in Word or something first.
     
    I have a feeling that “crafting” a post in Word is what causes these strings of formatting commands to appear that Stu then has to edit out.  Spawn of Satan.  (MS Word, that is, not Stu.)  You need to use a text editor to strip out formatting commands.

  266. HandandShrimp says:

    Morag
     
    Yes, It was a bit of a three way conversation. There was a discussion about Bath, architecture and the fact that so many of us have had at some point worked down south. I may be blurring things now but I am pretty sure it was you that told me you saw a job back home applied for it and got pretty much the first one you went for and it worked out really well because you were able to be near/look after your Mum for a few years before she passed away…apologies if my brain has scrambled this with someone else.

  267. cirsium says:

    @Hetty – the economics professor who gave the speech towards the end was Prof Mike Danson (either Heriot-Watt or University of the West of Scotland).  It was a sobering account of Scotland’s current position.
    RevStu, could you invite him to write an article based on his presentation for WoS?

  268. The Man in the Jar says:

    @ianbrotherhood
    Aye Mat McGinn a national treasure!
    anyone who hasn’t heard of him should take a look at these two videos.
    The ballad of John McLean the serious side of Mat.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61etFdGpXq8
    This should be played loud and proud at all “celebrations of the start of WW1.
    The Dundee Ghost. Laugh like a drain.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3MpQiS7TTM
    Many more like these as well.

  269. Morag says:

    Nogbad said:
    Yes, It was a bit of a three way conversation. There was a discussion about Bath, architecture and the fact that so many of us have had at some point worked down south. I may be blurring things now but I am pretty sure it was you that told me you saw a job back home applied for it and got pretty much the first one you went for and it worked out really well because you were able to be near/look after your Mum for a few years before she passed away…apologies if my brain has scrambled this with someone else.
     
    That is 100% right.  I simply had no idea it was you I was talking to at the time.  Which was a shame because I wanted to say hi for all those years on the JREF forum, plus kudos for your Guardian posts.

  270. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Just as a short FYI to those that never managed to attend the event, I am not an individual who has ever marched ( aside from the Life Boys Junior BB :-) ) however I felt strongly enough that I wanted to make a statement, just as a matter of principal as I had had enough of being brow beaten by the MSM.  My wife didn’t want to travel with me which was fair enough, she has her own views and I respect that; therefore the journey through to Edinburgh was quite liberating in as much as I was actually going to be involved although I knew absolutely nobody.

    The sense of bonhommie was contagious and I finally plucked up the courage to go find the Wings call to arms flag and from there on in I never looked back. People actually introduced themselves and it was a great feeling to recognise many of the posters.  The whole day was productive, informative, uplifting and exceptionally fulfilling. It did the heart good to say ‘I was there’.

    If anybody ever has doubts about attending such an event in the future, I can honestly say don’t be ! You’ll be amongst friends :-)

  271. Paula Rose says:

    please take up cirsium’s suggestion Rev

  272. cath says:

    Interested to see what people think of this? One of the NO sites is disparaging the rally and numbers, for one thing, but also patently trying to create sectarian issues (that’s not new; they’ve been trying to do that since the start and are failing, thankfully – mostly even with their own readers).
     
    They have this photo from the rally: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=617626331593745&set=o.174186732640325&type=1&theater
     
    I thought it looked odd and doctored, not like the rally at all, so found this very similar one that is of the rally: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=542587205810149&set=a.542582309143972.1073741835.153242934744580&type=1&theater
     
    What do others reckon? Just a slightly different angle, or loads of saltires and people photoshopped out the first one to make it look a far lower number, and a bit more sinister somehow?

  273. Famous15 says:

    I really enjoyed the march and rally again this year but I am not in favour of repeating it just before the referendum. Local events,coordinated by technology and big screens would mean less disruption when the workers are required for door to door etc. let us be innovative and still share that friendship felt on the march.

  274. ianbrotherhood says:

    @kendo-
    Impressive stuff there. Very much looking forward to seeing more.
    That’s what’s so great about this place – being unable to do certain things, or get a handle on specific skills, it’s truly inspiring to see people doing the stuff you wish you could do yourself, knowing that they’re like-minded. 
    The No Scotlanders have a mighty State behind them. Money is, in ‘real’ terms, no problem. But they don’t have faith, belief, or hope, and can’t buy any one of them at any price. They’re losers by nature, and they will be exposed as such in less than a year now…please, please, haste ye seasons by…
     

  275. Morag says:

    I just wanted to repost here something HandandShrimp posted earlier on the Guardian.
     
    Better Together have not done one of these because they simply don’t have popular support. Oh for sure the No vote is potentially bigger because people are nervous and unsure but that doesn’t mean that they are happy about being nervous and unsure and it doesn’t mean they like or warm to the people making them nervous and unsure. If we had the popular media on our side as the Catalonians do we would walk this and No would not get a look in.
     
    That is so true, all of it.  We’ll never get the popular media on our side before the referendum (but just watch the u-turn when we win!), but if we can simply show people that being nervous and unsure is really unnecessary, that’ll do it.

  276. Morag says:

    Cath, comparing the two photos, I think the Bitter Together one may be genuine.  It looks as if that was quite far back on the march and there were few other people about.  It may be that many of the marchers didn’t want to be too close to that banner.  I would be interested to hear Bob Purdie’s take on that entire subject, as he is a political scientist with a particular interest in the Irish independence movement.

  277. cath says:

    I thought that at first Morag, but the second photo, taken at about the same place, clearly shows a lot more people and a lot more flags around them. It is a different angle but I’m just not sure if it’s different enough to create such a difference between the two.

  278. cath says:

    The reason I’m asking, I guess, is that if they’re willing to doctor one photo to show something different to reality, they’ll be doing it with others.

  279. Erchie says:

    Partial to a Dahon Jack folding bkije myself, but that folds nowhere near as small as a brompton

  280. Paula Rose says:

    @cath
    The stewards were halting folk in order to keep the march moving at a steady pace, the James Connolly bunch were just behind me and were held for a minute, wondered who the photographer was – very active wee soul.

  281. CameronB says:

    cirsium
    RevStu, could you invite him to write an article based on his presentation for WoS?
     
    I think that is a good idea and would hope the Prof. feels that his professional tenure would not be undermined by doing so.

  282. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Morag
    “That is so true, all of it.  We’ll never get the popular media on our side before the referendum (but just watch the u-turn when we win!), but if we can simply show people that being nervous and unsure is really unnecessary, that’ll do it.”
    Don`t know about a “U” turn more like a car crash. Or helicopter crash in Cochran’s case. ;-)

  283. HandandShrimp says:

    I saw the James Connolly banner go past as I and couple of friends sat and watched the parade looking for the Wings banner (which we missed). It was well to the back of the parade but still in the thick of it. I didn’t give it a second thought. The James Connolly lot are radical republican socialists and there were a number of socialist groups at the back. SWP, SSP and a couple of others. I don’t recall seeing it up the hill though.
     
    The bile and foul language on the Facebook page say more about the sectarian nature of that page than it does the march. Better Together? Aye right.

  284. HandandShrimp says:

    Let’s face it, if we win this vote Cochrane’s head is going to explode (along with Davidson and Foulkes)
     

  285. dee says:

    Enjoyed looking back at all the pics from yesterday. Could I also suggest that the organisers of next years rally title it the “Birth of a Nation” rally.  With special guest Annie Lennox.  I also agree it should be in the Meadows.  The march should also start moving from about 11am so we have more time at the rally.  Just a few ideas I thought I would put out there, and a great big pat on the back to all who were involved in this years rally, good stuff.

  286. Adrian B says:

    A little bit of humor from National Collective
     
    http://nationalcollective.com/2013/09/22/calton-calling/

  287. Morag says:

    Let’s face it, if we win this vote Cochrane’s head is going to explode (along with Davidson and Foulkes)
     
    Oh, PLEEEEEEAAZE!!

  288. Morag says:

    Cath, I just think the photo on the Bitter Together page was a lucky catch at a time when there were few other marchers surrounding the James Connolly banner – possibly because that group was held back to let the column thin out a bit, and then walked on into more open space.  It’s actually a better photo than the one on the Society’s own page.
     
    It’s in the same vein as the demonising of the Flemish contingent.  Find someone you can smear in the crowd, and use that to smear everyone else by association.  I don’t think they were trying to make a point about poor turnout.

  289. Morag says:

    A little bit of humour from National Collective
     
    http://nationalcollective.com/2013/09/22/calton-calling/
     
    These two were with us in the Barony till after ten.  They left to get a taxi back to West Lothian, saying they had a cartoon to produce for the following day and no idea at all what was going to be in it.  Sheer genius.

  290. CameronB says:

    Re. the dodgy photograph, presented as ‘evidence’. Both processions are at roughly the same point on the North Bridge. The pics appear to have been taken at roughly the same, but where did the policeman wearing the FLUORESCENT YELLOW JACKET disappear to on “The Vote NO to Scottish independence and protect the union” pic? (behind the cheery chap with the grey t-shirt and olive jacket – center right of shot)

    Just spotted he might be behind the woman that the cheery chap is talking too.
     
    Flags, flags, flags.
     
    FAIL.
     

  291. Training Day says:

    Next year’s rally should be in Glasgow. In George Square, in front of the City Chambers. Take the fight directly to the city we need to win. We fight Labour, and we should be bold enough to say so.

  292. Morag says:

    Cameron, they’re not taken at the same place.  Look at the shops to the right of the pictures.  The Connolly Society one is outside Bella Italia, right on the corner of the High Street.  The Bitter Together one is significantly further down the hill, past a newsagent and then a Pizza Hut and then a Boots the Chemist and then a travel agent, and they are more or less opposite the North Bridge Arcade.  Check it on Google Maps.
     
    The march was obviously relatively thin at that stage and there’s no reason to believe anything was photoshopped.  They’re just trying a smear by association, they’re not trying to belittle the numbers.

  293. ianbrotherhood says:

    @TMITJ-
    re McGinn, and those links you posted-
     
    Man, I don’t know if it’s the hangover from yesterday or what, but I’m wiping away the last of the tears, snotters, you name it..aarrghh!
     
    We’ve got this time ahead, a clear space, a solid chance, to wake people up, same way McLean was doing. He didn’t have the internet. We do.
     
    What I take from those links you posted is this: I’m still ignorant about so much (at 50 years old?!) of my own history and background, that I daren’t make any assumptions about what other kinfolk think or feel about this referendum.
     
     
    It all seems so horribly vague – if I, as someone who thinks himself reasonably ‘educated’ can be bowled-over by a couple of Youtube-videos, what chance of reaching those voters who are satisfied with whatever they’re being fed by MSM?
     
    A common refrain amongst the ignorant is (as mentioned in this thread, above) ‘I don’t like that Alex Salmond/Nicola Sturgeon.’ Another is : ‘I don’t have enough information yet”
     
    The first can, at least in part, be attributed to the negative portrayal of the SNP hierarchy in MSM outlets. The latter, however, is inexcusable. It may have been a valid excuse twenty, or even fifteen years ago, but now?
     
    No way.
     
    If you have a question – any question – you can find answers to it. A whole range of answers. And if you don’t own the device allowing access, you’ll have a son or daughter, niece, nephew or neighbour who can do it – if you really are interested in finding the information you need, you’ll get it. Nae danger.
     
    There’s no way round this uncomfortable fact – plenty of folk, who now enjoy a much better standard of living than their parents or grandparents ever did, feel content to shut-up, perhaps fearful that their relatively ‘cosy’ lives may be jeopardised by the legitimate demands of ‘unrealistic’ weans or grand-weans.
     
    Inconvenient as that fact may be, here’s another one – ‘we’ (young or not) will tolerate this shite no longer, and will not have our weans carry a burden we shirked.

  294. Jim says:

    Interesting photos Cath. I saved them both to have a closer look. I wouldn’t worry though. The picture would be a Yes vote winner on my home facebook page!

    Only two points to make on it. James Connelly was an Edinburgh born protestant I believe.

    Second, I would sooner have the James Connelly Society contingent at a Yes Scotland march, than the British National Party and EDF and UKIP characters that would turn out at a No march… were they ever brave enough to actuatually hold one!

  295. Karamu says:

    I couldn’t make it yesterday- the logistics of family/ work commitments and living 300 miles away meant it wasn’t possible this time….
     
    I will not be missing it next time- and I will be bringing my daughter who will be four by then- it is for her that I yearn and strive for my country to be self determining.
     
    I may live in England right now but it is most certainly not out of choice and my single most motivating factor is for my daughter to live and be educated in an independent Scotland.

  296. Hetty says:

    cirsium
    Thanks that’s great I will pass this onto my friends who were encouraged and impressed by his analysis.
    Cheers
    Hetty
     

  297. Karamu says:

    PS, just watch Dennis Canavan’s speech- he needs to be more visible in the campaign, damn, he’s good!

  298. Blackford Wheeler says:

    Thanks cirsium for the Prof’s identity,
     
    Been hunting high and low for any reference to the Mike Danson’s address to the rally. I didn’t pick up his name from the introduction. His contribution was, for me, the most important of the event. He should have been on much earlier; before people started to drift off.

  299. Doug R says:

    @Alba4Eva
    Thanks for posting that. Got a wee warm glow watching it again! Great reaction from the crowd.
     
    @kendomacaroonbar 11.31 pm
    Totally agree with you re attending the rally. I drove down myself from the Highlands & was a bit nervous about coming. I needn’t have worried! The sense of camaraderie was great & once I’d plucked up the courage to speak to some of the Wings contingent I never looked back. Been grinning like an idiot since I got home. Fantastic day.

  300. Votadini Jeannie says:

    @ianbrotherhood
     
    Sadly, a lot of people won’t search the internet for facts because the won’t know where to start to find the most honest, correct, an unbiased facts. Others won’t even think of googling because they believe what they read in the papers. I know one man, ex-labour voter and now a Green, computer literate and who is minded to vote Yes, but is waiting for Yes Scotland to persuade him. He won’t accept the facts from me, he just wants the people who want his vote to sell it to him direct.
     
    I’ve not given up and I’m confident he’ll do the right thing but for him, Yes Scotland getting loud and obvious will be the key. 

  301. Hetty says:

    Opo anyone interested the speaker referred to who spoke last at the rally was
    Prof Mike Danson (either Heriot-Watt or University of the West of Scotland), good to know some people were listening fully by the end of this fantastic day(!) he was very good, very precise and eloquent.

  302. CameronB says:

    Morag
    I did say both shots were taken a roughly the same time. I would estimate the pic were taken approximately 10 to 15 seconds apart, the one published by the James Connolly Society being taken first. I appreaciate it is most definitely an attempt to smear through assiciation. Weren’t we all told for decades by the BBC, that it was republicans causing the ‘Irish troubles’?
     
    I am trying to see if I can match up the individuals, taking account of perspective and incline. I’m still not convinced. Where did the light grey trousers go from under the large Conolly banner? People were moving around a bit, so I suppose they may have fallen back.
     

  303. Oneironaut says:

    @Ianbrotherhood
    Well said :)
     
    Though there does seem to be a huge amount of general apathy out there.  I see it every time we do the street stalls with petitions against the Bedroom Tax.

    It actually started to creep me out a bit, ‘cos I felt like I wasn’t really seeing people, I was seeing some sort of weird hallucination or dream where most of the population had been replaced by robots programmed to repeat whatever it said in the news (sometimes almost word-for-word).

    So yeah, while I’m definitely voting Yes myself, I do occasionally worry that the “robots” will still outnumber the folks who are intelligent enough to do the research…
     
    We can but hope that people will come to their senses before next year though.
    At the rate Cameron and Co seem to be antagonising everyone, maybe even the apathetic folks will finally snap out of sheer frustration!

  304. Hetty says:

    ok this is quite cool, for all those techies out there and we arty folk vaguely ( very) interested, look up, ‘compute scotland’. It’s actually awesome as they say and I found it while looking up info on Prof Mike Danson.

  305. Doug Daniel says:

    Looking at the two photos Cath has linked to, it looks to me like it’s simply a case of the James Connolly banner blocking the marchers behind them in the first shot.
     
    Anyway, as others have said, they must have been near the back. I walked up the side of the queuing marchers for a fair bit while I was looking for Stu’s flag, and I didn’t see those guys.

  306. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Votadini Jeannie-
    Sadly, a lot of people won’t search the internet for facts because the won’t know where to start to find the most honest, correct, an unbiased facts’
     
    Agreed. But it’s no excuse. The information exists. It is ‘real’. If they choose to ignore it? They’ll  be guilty of selling-out their own.
     
    Then again, most of them have ‘one foot in the grave’, so they’ll not be that bothered, don’t have to confront the consequences.
     
    What really guts me is that you meet (via street-stalls etc)  wizened worthies who rail against ‘the likes of Salmond and Sturgeon‘ whilst carrying bags-full of prescription medicines – gratis – which would otherwise cost them a small fortune. And who pushed through the free-prescription legislation in Scotland?
     
    Nah. Maybe I’m just biased  (from seeing such hypocrisy at close-quarters) but it’s no-less galling to consider that Mail-readers of any stripe have a say in Scotland’s future. Unfortunately, they are legion.
     

  307. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Jim
    James Connolly was an Edinburgh born Catholic but not noted for his adherence to the religion until the end when he prayed fro those about to shoot him strapped to a chair because he was to week to stand up. He was a founder meber of a number of socialist organisations in Edinburgh and then got a Trade Union position in Dublin. He had served in the British army,some of it in Ireland. Dublin was of course in GB then. He led the Irish trade union movement into the GPO in Dublin in the 1916 Easter Rising.

    Oliver Brown described him as the only person of political significance that Edinburgh had produced in the last 100 years. 

    John McLean was influenced by Connolly and they may have known each other in socialist organisations. Matt McGinn did a nice piece about John McLean titled The ballad of John McLean (Dominie) which is on YouTube

  308. Paula Rose says:

    The James Connolly Society were near the front, the man himself was born in Edinburgh – close to the start of the march, do you need me to give you a history lesson?

  309. Paula Rose says:

    Ta Dave McEwan Hill

  310. Morag says:

    I would estimate the pic were taken approximately 10 to 15 seconds apart,
     
    No, really.  Look at Google Streetview.  It would take more than that time to walk that distance at the speed of people handling that banner.  Or even if I’m wrong about that, it’s still plenty of time for the people walking in the same general vicinity to have changed their relative positions.

    The Connolly Society picture shows the street was sparsely populated at that time.  The picture on the Bitter Together page is by no means implausible.  Why would they bother taking out a couple of extra bodies?  There’s no evidence at all they photoshopped the picture.

  311. ianbrotherhood says:

    @oneironeaut-
     
    Kin right.
     
    We’re not doing this for a laugh. It’s no game.
     
    Regardless of where we are party-politically, this movement, this ‘feeling’ should knock every schism or preference out of sight – we can bicker forever, but please, please all the known Gods, we’ll gain that space, claim that right to argue on our own terms, in our own language, and free ourselves from those who dare prescribe everything we have the cheek to attempt.
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6hEcDt8HZI
     
    The game’s a bogey, and they know it. After yesterday, they know they’ll have to resort to the seriously dirty stuff.
     
    Problem, for them? – we know it, and we’re ready.
     
    Game on.

  312. Doug Daniel says:

    I’m glad the next march is taking place on 30th August, and not in March or April as some folk were suggesting. There’s no point holding the march in just 6 months’ time, as it needs to be held when there’s a critical mass of support for Yes, and that’s not going to be the case until we’re just weeks away from the referendum. The whole point of the march will surely be to act as a display to those still unsure about making the jump to Yes that they’re in fine company, so it should be close to the date. And the arse-end of August means we should hopefully get a fine day for it, more like last year’s march than this year’s.
     
    Still has the problem of being held during the football season, mind – which not only forces some folk to choose between the football and the march, but also means the police have other priorities on the day. Still, I suppose if it was in July, you’re more likely to have a day that’s TOO hot, and folk might be on holidays abroad. Not to mention the small matter of the festival!

  313. CameronB says:

    Morag
    I said I’m not convinced, rather than I am convinced. I also acknowledged that folk were moving around.
     
    IMHO, the distance traveled by the cheery chap is not that great. I would estimate he is parallel to the middle of Boots in the first shot, if not the closest and most northerly point. He has only traveled 25-30 meters tops, and we all experienced the various speeds of the march. I was pretty close to the front and was keeping step with the band.
     
    I guess we will have to agree to differ, though it is hardly a make of break issue. I agree with your point re. negative association, inaccurate as I think that association might be.

  314. CameronB says:

    I would imagine someone of a services background could inform us of the speed of that march and the distance that would be covered, in say 30 seconds.

  315. CameronB says:

    Morag
    I forgot to mention that it is unfortunately neither pic is enlargeable. Also, I sold scanning and photo re-touching services for a decade, when running a digital printing business. We handled trade as well as retail, servicing some of Scotland’s top design and advertising agencies, as well as many of Edinburgh’s largest litho printers and more established digital competitors. I’ll guarantee you will have seen adverts that contained our scans, such as the Toy Story and Ice Age stuff that was linked with KFC.
     
    Please, respect that others may have insight that you do not share.

  316. Morag says:

    Cameron, I think you’re being ridiculous.  The suggestion was that the two photographs provided grounds for suspicion that Better Together had deliberately photoshopped theirs to belittle the number of people on the march.  There is absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever.

    It is perfectly reasonable to wonder about something like that, when first seeing the photos.  It is however entirely unreasonable to continue to assert that this might have happened, when the two views are examined in greater detail.

    This is not two snaps taken almost simultaneously from two different angles.  This is two entirely different pictures taken in different places in the street.  The number of people is not hugely different between the two views.  There is nobody present in one view who ought to have been present in the other.  And there is no sign of the street background being “wrong” either.  I was actually quite surprised when I saw how much further down the street the second picture was taken.  Plenty time for other walkers to have moved out of shot, especially considering the different angles.

    Furthermore, there is no attempt by the Bitter Together clowns to denigrate the number of the marchers.  They are solely concerned with smearing the Connolly Society, and the independence campaign by association.  And even more – there is actually little difference between the number of people in both shots.  What would have been the point or laboriously removing one or two bodies at most, and then not even mentioning the numbers?

    This is just getting annoying.  I realise you never met a conspiracy theory you didn’t like, but not every casual remark suggesting that someone has been up to some shenanigans is actually right, you know.  Not in the Rotherham by-election count, and not here.

  317. Shinty says:

    O/T Neil Young busking in Glasgow Central 1976!
     
    Just fabulous – http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/08/27/know-your-history/

  318. cath says:

    ” I would sooner have the James Connelly Society contingent at a Yes Scotland march, than the British National Party and EDF and UKIP characters that would turn out at a No march”
     
    Absolutely. James Connelly was instrumental in the struggle for Irish independence. I’m not religious and despise sectarianism, so frankly the fact that site is using this to try and whip it up is abhorrant – but that’s just their style. They’re a nasty site not worth bothering with, very obviously connected to sectarian and extremist elements, and thankfully not many people do bother with them.
     
    I’m more interested in whether the photo has been doctored to make the march look smaller as well as to highlight just that one group – it makes them look like they’re marching alone. In the other one, although it is certainly a different angle and different place, there are Saltires at either side behind them and it’s an obvious march. It may not be doctored though – it might just be a clever angle they’ve shot it at to get it looking like that.

  319. Morag says:

    Please, respect that others may have insight that you do not share.
     
    Cross-posting.  Please quit with the patronising clap-trap.  I don’t care if you have been re-touching photos since you were in short trousers, you have provided no insight whatsoever into this stupid and pointless debate.

    Evidence would be good.  You have shown none.  The photos are far enough apart that it would be ridiculous to imagine everyone must have remained in lock-step.  They are taken from different angles.  There is nobody appearing in one who must have been in the other, but isn’t.

    The number of people in shot is not much different between the two pictures.  Both look sparse compared to most of the other shots of the march, so it’s just happenstance of the marshalling.  There is no evidence anyone has been removed from one of the pictures, it would have made little difference if they had been, and Bitter Together aren’t even trying to make that point.

    It is an important feature of critical thinking to be able to look at something that seems a bit suspicious at first sight, and realise that no, it isn’t suspicious at all.  This reaching and dodging, all in the name of not having to give up what might have been a tiny conspiracy theory, is just silly.

  320. CameronB says:

    As I realise you are full of yourself.
     
    Here we are full circle, though not in an eternal Celtic knot sense. Unfortunately you are once again misrepresenting what I have said and now you are resorting to ad hominem cheap shots. Best we just ignore each other from now on. Can we at least agree on that?

  321. Morag says:

    I’m more interested in whether the photo has been doctored to make the march look smaller as well as to highlight just that one group – it makes them look like they’re marching alone. In the other one, although it is certainly a different angle and different place, there are Saltires at either side behind them and it’s an obvious march. It may not be doctored though – it might just be a clever angle they’ve shot it at to get it looking like that.
     
    Cath, I don’t even think the photo was deliberately shot to make the march look sparse, or the Connolly group look isolated.  It might now even have been the BT group’s photo in the first place.

    The fact is, the marchers were actually well spaced out at that point, possibly because (as one of the other posters commented) they had been held up by a marshall to avoid crowding.  If you look at the Google Streetview images, the two pictures were taken some little distance apart from each other.  One was outside Bella Italia, the other outside the North Bridge Arcade.  There was plenty of time for other marchers to have stepped out of shot.

    And just suppose someone had decided to go to the trouble of removing one or two bodies from the photo, I’d at least have expected some comment like “nobody wants to be near them” to draw attention to this.  No such comment.

    If the two snaps had been virtually simultaneous we could be more precise, but with the banner having advanced about four shops worth down the street (and the Pizza Hut place is quite wide), it’s really a non-starter.

  322. Morag says:

    As I realise you are full of yourself.
     
    Here we are full circle, though not in an eternal Celtic knot sense. Unfortunately you are once again misrepresenting what I have said and now you are resorting to ad hominem cheap shots. Best we just ignore each other from now on. Can we at least agree on that?
     
    Oh believe me, I’ve tried.  I just can’t be bothered with this credulous acceptance of every casual remark that suggests something underhand might have happened, followed by a desperate clinging to the notion no matter how little it stands up to more serious scrutiny.

    And look up what “ad hominem” means.  Hint, it’s not that.

  323. CameronB says:

    What is not ad hominem or “against the person”, about suggesting that I am some sort of wacko ‘conspiracy theorist’ nut job?
     
    Now please go away before I say something rude.

  324. Jim says:

    Shinty. That is a great video and I shall listen to it now before I go to bed. Bella I presume?
     
    Cath. I dont visit unionist sites. There is really no point in doing so. I’m also athiest, albeit an Scottish RC athiest. If the pictures are doctored it doesnt really matter. If they accuse the Yes campaign of being something then sometimes it comes back to bite them on the bum. And this one is it.
    It should though be used sparingly!

  325. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    In the hotel foyer and waiting for the taxi to the airport.
    It was a great day, a great event and well worth the trip.
    Special thanks to Stu, without whom I would have lost my hope and political will to live.
    We will win and I give special thanks to all my fellow posters and ranters.
    Big thanks to Conan, Man in a Jar, Tea Jeannie, Lanarkist, Albalha, and the guy from Renfrew who ended up in Motherwell on the way home.
    Special big thanks to “Bad Penny Jenny” on the march who fair lighted up my day. Just wish I had asked for her phone number. And she, like Conan, is a librarian! Need to try learning to read again.
     
    love to all B t P

  326. Morag says:

    Cameron, I’m not going away on your orders.
     
    “Argumentum ad hominem” is the logical fallacy of rejecting an argument, not because of its lack of merit, but because of some personal criticism of the person making the argument.
     
    So, to say this is nonsense because the person making the argument is a nutcase conspiracy theorist, would be an example of that fallacy. However, to reject the argument for sound reasons and then to remark, inter alia, that by the way, that person also happens to be “a wacko conspiracy theorist nutjob”, is not a logical fallacy.
     
    It’s all about the merits of the argument. There is no reason at all to believe that picture has been manipulated, and you have singularly failed to provide one. Your track record as a conspiracy theorist is merely of passing interest.

  327. Morag says:

    Thinking about it, seeing as the object of the exercise seems to have been to smear by association, it might have suited them better to have photographed that banner in the heart of the procession. Show that it was embraced by the Yes campaign.
     
    Making it appear isolated might not have been the best strategy. But that just seems to have been the shot they had of it.

  328. CameronB says:

    Morag
    I posted “I said I’m not convinced, rather than I am convinced”, @ 1:58am. My previous posts were also trying to develop various scales to measure the distance of travel by.
     
    ad hominem Latin [æd ?h?m??n?m]
    adj & adv
    1. directed against a person rather than against his arguments
    2. based on or appealing to emotion rather than reason Compare ad rem See also argumentum ad hominem
    [literally: to the man]

    ad ho•mi•nem (æd ?h?m ? n?m, -?n?m)
    adj.
    1. appealing to one’s prejudice, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s reason.
     
    2. attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering an argument.
    adv.
    3. in an ad hominem manner.
     
    [< Latin: literally, to the man]
     
     
    Who says you are better placed to interpret an image than I am? Why is your judgement “sound reason” yet mine unreliable? What is my “track record”? BTW what is your record in providing links to evidence supporting your opinions?
     
    As someone with a scientific background, I assume you understand the difference between black and white. Perhaps I should look through your post history to see how often the letter K appears? Then again, I suppose I should remember the three “Happy Premises”;
     
    1. There are no aliens.
    2. There is no giant foot trying to squash me.
    3. Even though I feel like I might ignite, I probably wont.
     
    I perhaps wasn’t clear enough and the words I used not the correct ones. I should have said please leave me alone as I have no wish to converse with you further.

  329. JLT says:

    kendomacaroonbar
     
    Kendo, mate, I know exactly what you mean. It’s was my first ever rally too! After wandering up from the Canongate, I walked into a busy wee throng of folk all hanging outside the Albanach. It was weird in a good way! I knew there was folk all around me that I have corresponded with for the last year and a half, but I didn’t know who or where to begin.

    For me, it was when Stuart arrived. Everyone went to shake his hand, and as we all introduced ourselves, that was when our ‘pseudo names’ came out thick and fast. Honestly it was a brilliant moment, as I could now put names to faces.

    For Stuart …the look on his face was also brilliant. You could see he was overwhelmed at the number of folk coming up to shake his hand and thank him for his brilliant efforts. I don’t think he ever expected such a fantastic reception.

    As you say, after that, the day was just brilliant! I was never alone, or felt left out, and each pub that I went into …I just kept on meeting ‘Wingers’. Overall, I think I must have met 40 folk, whose names, I recognised from the postings.

    For me …it is a day that I will truly treasure, and remember, until the end of my days.

  330. Bubbles says:

    That photo is absolutely not doctored. The front of the march had pulled ahead by this point and that’s why there are gaps on the bridge. The front was halted at the hill to allow the following groups to close the gaps. I have loads of pictures shot from the bridge and they all show these gaps. Curiously I don’t have any of this particular gap but I’d eat my hat if I was proven wrong. There’s no conspiracy here I’m afraid. More interesting is the comments on those Britnat pages. Know thine enemy!

  331. Having read the last few posts – you can tell this isn’t the ‘Handshakes, Hugs and Hope’ thread!

    But I agree with Kendo – I went on my own, as my wife has sprained her ankle and wouldn’t have managed, and although I was a bit shy and only spoke to Stuart and a couple of others, I still made the journey home with an extra large spring in my step! :)

  332. Taranaich says:

    @muttley79: Bringing up history is not going to win us independence.  It would be a completely regressive and counterproductive move.  It would be needlessly alienating the English people (or people from England originally who now think of themselves as Scottish) who are part of the independence movement.  Let the British nationalists keep on mentioning Braveheart and Bannockburn.  We need to convince people about the future of Scotland, not the past.

    History alone won’t win us independence, I agree, but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored or shunned. Bannockburn isn’t some football match where The Scots Beat The English, it’s where a small nation successfully defended its right to independence from a much larger invading nation. If you’re worried about alienating the English/new Scots of English origin, remind them that thousands of Saxons and Normans (as well as Welsh) migrated to Scotland only a few generations before Bannockburn, and they were considered as Scottish as the descendents of the ancient Caledonians by the time of the Bruce.

    We need to convince people about the future of Scotland using the past to our advantage. Our past shows that Scotland was an independent nation for hundreds of years, that we have a history of accepting and integrating peoples from all across the world as our own (our founding figure was an Egyptian wumman, ferchrissakes), and that our nation’s rich history and culture proves our distinction from the rUK.

    The only way history could be regressive and counterproductive is if it’s used wrongly. And since the more problematic unionists are already using it wrongly, I think it would be defeatist to allow it to stand rather than ignore it: provide a counterpoint to their histrionics about anglophobia and parochialism, by showing Scotland’s history isn’t just about stabbing English people – even the bits where stabbing was a big factor. If our only response to Gibson’s law is to studiously ignore any reference to Braveheart or Bannockburn, then the undecided/unknowledgeable will have no other point of reference.

    I absolutely agree that there’s far more to the story than history, but I don’t agree that it should be left out either. If nothing else, the unionists certainly don’t leave out UK history like the world wars.

  333. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    For Stuart …the look on his face was also brilliant. You could see he was overwhelmed at the number of folk coming up to shake his hand and thank him for his brilliant efforts. I don’t think he ever expected such a fantastic reception.”

    I can confirm the above. Well, except that I don’t know what the look on my face was like.

  334. JLT says:

    Stuart mate,
     
    You were extremely happy, shocked and overwhelmed …and we were all very, very pleased to see you …and to meet you …even if we each only got a few seconds each as there were so many people who wanted to shake your hand.
     
    See you next year, mate.

  335. john king says:

    6th picture down
    man with mustache holding the wings flag, I saw you standing next to the rev at the Albanach but didn’t get the chance to ask your name?

  336. john king says:

    jlt says 
    pseudo names’ came out thick and fast. Honestly it was a brilliant moment, as I could now put names to faces.
    I  agree the pleasure of meeting people I hold in the highest regard was to me the best part of the day 
    and it was a real pleasure to meet you jlt 

  337. john king says:

    fed up I didnt meet you though bubbles :(

  338. Robyn - Quine fae Torry says:

    @ lumilumi
     
    That was me that said about Norway being a role model – in the context of having an oil fund for future generations to benefit from. 
     
    The girl doing the interview had said she’d had a lot of comments about the oil fund and she was overwhelmed by the goodwill towards Norway from the folk she’d interviewed. 
     
    Thanks for the link, and translation! 

  339. redcliffe62 says:

    It is clear that the NO campaign want to avoid the fact the Tories have been in charge 26 of the last 44 years, and on no occasion did Scotland vote for that scenario.

    So 26 out of the last 44, do you want another 26 years of Tory London misrule like the last 44 years???? needs to be the line. The fact Labour are almost as bad does not matter.

    Cameron happy to have the powers but not tell Scotland why he should continue to have them. I think Jenkins is too nice; Canavan v Darling. NO campaign hope that by rejecting anyone except Salmond they can avoid debate. Has to be against SNP not a YES team.

    A debate with members from the 6 main groups or parties, SSP or LFI. Greens, SNP, Libs, Lab and Tories is what should happen so we hear different views and people see it is not Labour against SNP as Darling would like to portray.

    Tories are the No campaign’s Achilles heel. Scared to admit they control the No campaign and fund it.

    On the issue of undecideds, it seems clear the more people are advised with facts the more likely they are to vote YES, so not just Cameron but everybody in the NO campaign has a vested interest to not get involved in debate and simply state we do not know what will happen when  XYZ happens. Complicit MSM does not help.

    Saying a NO vote means Tories and even more welfare cuts worse than the Bedroom tax with no chance to stop them needs to be shouted from rooftops. Labour cannot deny Tories are in charge and making horrific calls on WMD and cutting Scotland’s pocket money.

    So…. No means Tories and NO means money for the bankers and their backers in London instead of oil money going on YOU is simplistic but people will understand that. It needs to be simple.

    Free prescriptions will be removed, free education will be gone as London rule is the same without a YES, that sort of thing.
     

  340. dee says:

    Going by last nights posts, it is becoming clear that a certain female is becoming over-dominant on the site.  If you are not careful it will end up like Newsnet Scotland, where a half dozen people use the site.  

  341. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Going by last nights posts, it is becoming clear that a certain female is becoming over-dominant on the site.”

    Och wheesht. Morag’s one of our more prolific commenters, but not by a vast distance. Her well-informed, smart and articulate comments are always welcome here, even if she and Cameron really ought to give each other a rest.

  342. Albalha says:

    @dondeeflugs
    Thanks for posting your photos, hadn’t realised I’d been snapped! Anyway great to meet you and other wingers after the march.
    Though I rather over imbibed, paid for it yesterday at the Trade Fair, off now for day 2.
    Interestingly I took a chance to speak to a few other traders, all either YES or Don’t Knows, pointed them in the direction of various sites, some people are just not engaged yet, however, they are aware of how negative the BT campaign is.
     
     
     

  343. Sneddon says:

    End up like NNS! oh ya beauty!, good one Dee

  344. Shinty says:

    dee
     
    I wouldn’t worry about it – if we all agreed about everything it would be a sad and boring old world. We are a very diverse bunch of folk on here with only ONE common purpose and that is for a YES vote in 2014. There are bound to be disagreements amongst commentators, it’s up to the rest of us not to be drawn in and carry on and not allow it to disrupt the thread. I certainly don’t think a few heated arguments are going to spoil the entire site and it’s readership.
     

  345. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m also on 10-minute moderation?”

    As has already been pointed out – nobody is. There’s no such thing as “10-minute moderation”. You can either be in pre-moderation (in which case there’s no time limit, you get moderated when I manually approve you and not before), or you can be totally unmoderated. I don’t believe I’ve ever put anyone in pre-moderation, but sometimes Akismet will hold back a comment if it feels it’s suspicious for any of several possible reasons (too many links, mistyped username etc).

    There is no facility in either WordPress or the comment plugin to apply a timed moderation. Why would there be? I can’t possibly see every comment within 10 minutes of it being posted, so what would be the point? It is, as Morag and others have said, the (maximum) edit window in which you can edit your comment.

  346. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    IanBrotherhood,
    i think the man you referred to at the start was Handclapping who posts mainly on Munguins Republic. He recognised me by my T shirt and we talked. He was very tired and Conan told me that he had blue lips and was injecting insulin. We. Lost him in the throng but I did see an Ambulance descending, presumably with someone inside. I fear it was Handclapping and hope whoever was inside they are well.
    Anyone know any more about the Ambulance?

  347. DonDeefLugs says:

    @albalha
    A real pleasure meeting you :-)   Hopefully we’ll all meet up again before the rally next year.
    Good luck with the trade fair.

  348. Gillie says:

    People should take the compliment. The reason that MSM and BT are trying to downplay or denigrate this year’s successful march is because it was exactly that – SUCCESSFUL.
     
    What the MSM-BT wanted were headlines along the basis “March Flops” – “Marchers Fail To Turn Up” – “March Turns Ugly” – “March A Wash Out”.
     
    They didn’t get any of that. So instead we either got a quoted Police figure, some dodgy quotations and photos from the Bitter crowd, or the whole event relegated to the inside pages of the Sunday papers. 
     
    What Saturday highlighted was what we are are and what BT isn’t, and they and the MSM did not like that one little bit.  We are a grassroot independence revolution. 
     
    25,000+ turned up and marched. 20,000 made it to the Hill. It was a great day out and many made a whole lot of new friends.
     
    Next year will be much bigger and better.  Book the Meadows and have a whole day event, with a march, with speeches, with music, with activities for the kids, and with stalls a plenty ……. make it an Independence Festival.

  349. smudger says:

    Just to congratulate you for Saturday :)

    unfortunately I was in wales and unable to change my plans, no coverage at all on the Englandshire/Welshire media so it had to be well behaved as I have no doubt any trouble would have been magnified outrageously by the UCock brigade :)

    PS I saw a UCock sticker on a landrover down here I should have brought YES stickers down with me

  350. DonDeefLugs says:

    Chatting with friends, colleagues etc since the rally, what’s been a bit of an eye-opener for me is how few of them knew it was being held. I’d imagine there’d be loads more in attendance if next years was publicised.

  351. Boorach says:

    Hope it’s not too early to go o/t but Derek Bateman has an excellent piece at
     
    http://drderekbateman.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/i-didnt-mean-to-do-this/

  352. gavin lessells says:

    O/T
    Some of you may have seen leaflets beginning “Aye Right” which go on to list web sites including Wings. Packs were distributed to all buses leaving the Rally.
    Anyone interested in obtaining leaflets should contact ROBERT ALLAN
    e mail: soarsa [at] me [dot] com  or phone him on 01631 562 571.
    Alternatively contact self on 07788661018
    We have 26000 leaflets left in Glasgow area but can also send pdf for self printing

  353. Desimond says:

    I met a guy from Business For Scotland on train back to Glasgow. Started discussing various benefits of being Independent and I said “And of course we have the Scottish Govt Futures Fund instead of the horrible PFI II”. He didnt know anything about the Socttish Govts preferable funding for large projects, I was shocked. I would have thought that would have been one of the main considerations business wise but in hindsight it probably affects the Better Together ( ie PFI loving) companies a whole lot more.

  354. tartanfever says:

    Boorach – 
    Thanks for the link – thats a great piece by DB, suggest everyone has a wee look at that.

  355. jr ewen says:

    Hi all
    Wife and i had a great time at the march and rally. it was wonderful to see so many people out. We got to the pub on time but missed the badges i think. it was so busy at that spot and a bit of a bottleneck that we missed the chance to say hello.  not to worry, the speeches and songs were great and got me a few times. i couldnt sing Man’s a Man without greetin.
    Back in the pub with friends in glasgow we chatted about the day, me still with yes t-shirt and kilt on goes outside for a fag, young women comes up see’s tshirt and tells me all about what she thought about indyref. she did most of the talking but hopefully she got some encouragement from me to vote yes. 
    vote will be won in the pub!
    i think i’ll wear tshirt more often now. 

  356. MochaChoca says:

    Here’s how the BBC reported the march over the course of the day:
    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/685957/diff/3/4
    My missus and I were a bit late (puncture) and missed the start but as I was driving into the city, she was on the BBC website who were already reporting the number who had marched (in past tense) as 8000. Took us about another 40-50 mins to get parked (at the train station), bog & coffee, and there were hundreds still coming through the train station. We joined what looked to be near the end the march (with loads of others) at the corner of North Bridge and Princes Street.
    When she read out the number i said they must be referring to last year as how could they say X amount marched this year when is was only just underway.

  357. Bubbles says:

    @ John King
     
    Right back at ye! I found the whole thing quite overwhelming to be honest. I’m afraid I’m a loner in my work, surrounded as I am with unionists.

  358. Jeannie says:

    @Bugger the panda
     
    Hi Bugger – it was lovely to meet you in person at the Albanach, if only for a couple of minutes.  Re the ambulance, I was standing at the entrance to Calton Hill for half an hour waiting for friends and a man called the policewoman who was standing near me and said something like, “I think it’s been to much for her”.  Shortly after a first-aider ran up the hill and a wee while later an ambulance went up.  So, I don’t think it was Handclapping.
     
    If anybody saw a wee woman in a saltire standing at the bottom of the hill on the right hand side just at the entrance, with a man, just the two of us on our own (looking suspiciously like Special Branch, probably), that was me.  So Hi to everybody that smiled and nodded.

  359. Jeannie says:

    @gavin lessells
     
    Your a saviour!  That’s the leaflets I was mentioning (might have been on a different thread).  They’re brilliant.

  360. Sneddon says:

    DonDeefLugs – MSM never mention it.  It was the same last year and if we get the same expotential rise in numbers it should be about 40 thousand people next year.  The organisers now rely on social media and the wider YES community to publicise the march.  Something the MSM  don’t like as its not paying them to advertise the rally.

  361. Gillie says:

    There is a big difference between the BT-MSM campaign and our campaign.
     
    Whilst BT-MSM can only indulge in a scatter-gun fears and smears tactics on air and in newsprint, we can talk direct to Scots on a one-to-one basis. We can knock on doors, we can campaign openly on the streets, we can use social media, we can inform, we can persuade, we can march. We can highlight to family, friends and colleagues the difference between ourselves and BT-MSM not only in what we are saying but how we are saying it. 
     
    What Saturday proved is that we have thousands of grassroots campaigners, BT-MSM have nothing. 

  362. Luigi says:

    O/T Margaret Curran is now warning that a YES vote next year would break up the British Labour Party.
     
    I am glad that someone has at last admitted that the “Scottish Labour Party” is a figment of the imagination!

  363. Morag says:

    I can confirm the above. Well, except that I don’t know what the look on my face was like.
     
    I should have been poised with my camera!  Only, I was much too intent on getting into position to get a shiny, shiny badge.
     
    I still wonder who the guy in the wheelchair was, that I gave a badge to.  I was so sure he must be there because he was a Wings person, even if he wasn’t Arbroath (as we know of course he wasn’t what with being the wrong sex for a start!), and I wanted to make sure he wasn’t missed in the crush.  Now, though, I think he might have been a random passer-by caught in the scrum.  Who has one of the shiny silver badges, and no idea why he has it or what it means!
     
    Oops.

  364. DonDeefLugs says:

    Plenty online about promoting events: flyers, stickers, posters, word of mouth etc. 
    Every little helps :-) 

  365. Jeannie says:

    Re next year’s rally – wonder if we could crowd-fund a tv ad.  I know they’re really expensive, but it might be a good idea, if we have a big enough location – and by “we”, I of course mean the people who’ve done such a great job organising the last two – all praise to them.

  366. Jeannie says:

    @Morag
     
    Never mind, Morag, if he wasn’t a Wings supporter before, he probably is by now :-)

  367. Macart says:

    Having watched the RT vid and looked at a fair few images of the day by now, you can visibly see the difference between the campaigns written on near every face in the crowd. Reading through threads like these, watching vids of the speeches. The smiles, the jokes, the singing.
     
    Its hope versus fear. They can’t put anything together like that simply because who wants to march on behalf of fear and uncertainty? Their own narrative makes a lie of their campaign name.

  368. Jeannie says:

     For Stuart …the look on his face was also brilliant. You could see he was overwhelmed at the number of folk coming up to shake his hand and thank him for his brilliant efforts. I don’t think he ever expected such a fantastic reception.”
     
    It was great to meet you, Stu.  I have to say, it’s the first time in my life I’ve introduced myself to someone I’d never met before and they immediately quoted by e-mail address to me.  As chat-up lines go, that’s quite impressive :-)

  369. liz says:

    Re Morag and Handshrimp – ‘Oh for sure the No vote is potentially bigger because people are nervous and unsure but that doesn’t mean that they are happy about being nervous and unsure….’
    This is very true, we were in a pub at the top of Cockburn St before the march – I was with some people from The Wallace Group who were all decked out in tartan and flags – and a youngish man spoke to us and said that he admired us but he would not be voting Yes – he won’t be voting No either – because he was worried about his and his mates job – his mate works at Faslane – but he would like ‘Nothing more than Scotland to be independent’
     
    We didn’t have much time to talk to him but I mentioned the Scottish Navy setting up in Faslane and he looked at me as if I had grown an extra head.
     
    At the time I was a bit negative about what he said but later I realised that it is a real worry for some people. We need to reasure people like this man as he is a potential Yes but is falling for the negativity of the Naysayers.

  370. Morag says:

    Here’s how the BBC reported the march over the course of the day:
    http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/685957/diff/3/4
    When she read out the number i said they must be referring to last year as how could they say X amount marched this year when is was only just underway.
     
    These numbers do sound reasonablyright for last year.  I wonder if some bone-head has just said, oh well that was what turned up last time, it’ll probably be about the same?  Whoever was giving the information to the BBC a that time was probably not on the march – likely to have been some apparatchik behind a desk who simply knew that was the sort of numbers they were expecting.  Because that was the numbers the police had catered for. 
     
    What is really telling is that the BBC has not updated that article, or corrected it in any way.  The time stamp of the article, which as you say is describing something which had barely begun in the past tense, as if it was all over and retrospective assessment was underway, was about half past one!
     
    It seems that the police later updated their information and their estimate, once they had seen the magnitude of the crowd and once they had called in some extra officers.  Nicola (I think) announced on the hill, towards the end, that the police estimate was 20,000, which is a lot more realistic.  (The organisers said 30,000, and the truth is usually somewhere between the two estimates.)  But the BBC haven’t changed or updated anything.
     
    I don’t entirely blame the police because this is just how they operate and it would have been the same story if it had been a Better Together march.  I do blame the BBC.  It’s a sad day when you have to get your information from Russia Today, of all places, because the BBC won’t tell you the truth.

  371. Eddie says:

    The unionists are running scared.  So much so that they appear to be playing the sectarian card in order to stir up trouble.  It wasn’t so long ago I was hearing unionist politicians disparaging the referendum by saying only Catholics and ginger haired Highlanders would vote ‘Yes’.  Thankfully the majority of my fellow Scots are not signing up to this nonsense.
     
    There where a large number of different groups at the rally and I’m sure this got right under the skin of U-KOK, who would be unable to muster anyone other than the orange order to a ‘no’ rally.  That a pro-republican group marched for independence, it was certain to cause a knee-jerk reaction among certain members of the Scots community who fail to understnd any point of view other than their own unionist agenda.  Will we see migration to England or Northern Ireland in the event of a ‘YES’ vote?

  372. Bubbles says:

    @ Eddie
     
    I bloody hope so!

  373. Luigi says:

    Eddie,
     
    Perhaps next year we should encourage football fans who support independence to wear their club tops at the march.  Can you imagine Celtic and Rangers fans, Hearts and Hibs fans marching together in common cause?
     
    MSM would just love it!

  374. Craig P says:

    A pub meet would be fun. But wait – if everyone supports independence, what will we talk about? Could somebody bring an undecided? ;)

  375. Morag says:

    This is for everyone….
     
    http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i393/heyzorro/Freedom/cc201fed778abe453b668cc31608ca47_zpsb26a8090.jpg
     
    Wonderful image, Bubbles.  Absolutely heart-warming.

  376. Jeannie says:

    @Craig P
     
    A pub meet would be fun. But wait – if everyone supports independence, what will we talk about? Could somebody bring an undecided?
     
    What a great idea – we all meet up, everybody brings an undecided and we could then have a competition along the lines of “Name that Tune” -” I can sway that undecided in less than 3 arguments, sort of thing”.  I’m away to start practising.

  377. Bubbles says:

    Thanks Morag. I was lucky to get a few keepers as I only took 357 photos and 17 video clips!

  378. Morag says:

    Thanks Morag. I was lucky to get a few keepers as I only took 357 photos and 17 video clips ????
     
    Wow.  I was snapping away in my amateur point-and-click manner, but my camera battery ran out towards the end of the rally.  I was fairly snap-happy, but a lot of that was repeated tries to get the Wings flag properly unfurled in the rather indolent breeze.  Now I can’t find the mains charger for my camera, so everything is in digital limbo until I do.
     
    Don’t you find you see the entire event through a viewfinder when you take so many?  Still and video?

  379. Seasick Dave says:

    Not sure I’ve done this right but here are some snaps from the march, including the Rev having a swally and the Major in full stride :)
     
    http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/dave_offshore/library/

  380. cath says:

    “Perhaps next year we should encourage football fans who support independence to wear their club tops at the march.  Can you imagine Celtic and Rangers fans, Hearts and Hibs fans marching together in common cause?”
     
    That did happen this year apparently – Rangers for Independence, Celtic for independence and another club all got together on the hill.

  381. Morag says:

    Saw a “Celtic for independence” banner.

  382. Shinty says:

     
    Anyone know of any videos of the performers – searched on YT, but can’t find anything – also, found the main speeches on YT but not the one by Mike Danson?
     

  383. Xaracen says:

    @Bubbles:
    My daughter and I came for the day on one of the Dundee coaches, and the two topless kilted chaps were the reason we found ourselves at the head of the march, as she was so keen to get close enough to them to take some piccies! :-D
    It’s a shame the pipe band didn’t play more. They were practising behind the Tron Kirk just before the march, and I got several photos and a good movie recording of one piece.
    Magic day!

  384. CameronB says:

    Och wheesht. Morag’s one of our more prolific commenters, but not by a vast distance. Her well-informed, smart and articulate comments are always welcome here, even if she and Cameron really ought to give each other a rest.
     
    I think you would be horrified buy the number of marchers that told me they think you have a growing problem with a resident bully. Most of them were female and nearly all said they were discouraged from posting here because of her.
     
    I am not trying to tell you how to run your site, just offering some customer feedback. I also appreciate I have no evidence to back up my assertion, so I suppose it comes down to your own personal judgement.

  385. Morag says:

    Suit yourself.  The picture still isn’t doctored, and that will remain my opinion until you provide some actual evidence.
     
    And maybe if people would stop posting “corrections” or “apologies” prefaced by remarks that I’d pull someone up on this if only I were there, you wouldn’t be coming out with such daft assertions.  I’ve hardly ever actually said anything about anyone’s use of language, if you look back.  Mainly, one single comment pointing out that it’s “free rein” as in riding horses, not “free reign” as in Queenie, sort of went viral, and people started referring to me as the grammar Nazi.  I thought it was amusing, for a while, but maybe it’s getting less than amusing now.
     
    For goodness sake, someone had a go at someone else for sayin “heart-wrenching” when they believed the phrase should be “heart-rending”, and included the comment that they were saying this because I’d quibble about it.  This is ridiculous.  “Heart-wrenching” is a perfectly good and emotive term, even if (or maybe because) it’s not the usual form of words.  But someone wants to pull someone up on it, so they do it in my name.  Maybe not as funny as it used to be.
     
    And the picture still isn’t doctored, and if you can’t take the facts then that isn’t my problem.

  386. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think you would be horrified buy the number of marchers that told me they think you have a growing problem with a resident bully.”

    Well, more like surprised, because absolutely nobody, out of the hundreds of people I spoke to on Saturday, said anything like that to me. I value everyone who comments here, and I have no problems with people expressing strong opinions as long as it’s done with some basic respect and courtesy. You two push that sometimes, and on this particular occasion you’re the greater sinner. So far as I could see Morag made perfectly fair and polite points about the picture not being doctored.

  387. CameronB says:

    Why would anyone waste their precious seconds with you, talking about some negative aspect of the WOS experience? Especially if it does not affect them directly. As a journalist you will appreciate me not divulging sources, but even some of your regular posters felt this was a problem.
     
    BTW, I can walk away from what is increasingly looking like someone nursing a bruised ego, in a heart beat. Perhaps you might instruct Morag that I no longer want to converse with her and ask her not to addresses me directly.

  388. Morag says:

    Oh for goodness sake.  I wasn’t going to mention all the happy conversations I had with Wings people on Saturday, including lurkers, because it would sound like swollen-headedness.  It’s Stu’s writing people come here for.
     
    Cameron, you asked me to ignore you, and I said OK.  A bright new day dawned and I dropped the subject.  I posted about other things.  Then you dragged it up again.  Give it a rest.

  389. ianbrotherhood says:

    Come on, time-out, eh? Have a swatch at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGXDwbzlJKw

  390. CameronB says:

    ianbrotherhood
    I think I need to declare an unfair advantage. My shins are all ready lumpy and scarred through years of playing football, and so possibly a little desensitised. An analogy of my life?
     
    I remember one team mate I played with, and the gutties he wore when the ground was frozen solid. They were safety trainers from his dad’s work, replete with steel top-caps. The referees never spotted them. Another analogy of life? ;)

    I almost forgot. Who do you think I avoided in the crunch, when I moved to another team?

  391. TJenny says:

    A truly wonderful day not only meeting the wonderful Rev Stu, and getting his second last wee round badge but also getting a namecheck from Bugger the Panda – Oh, be still my beating heart;-)

  392. ianbrotherhood says:

    @Cameron-
     
    No idea – please do tell.

  393. CameronB says:

    ianbrotherhood
    Nuance can sometimes be difficult to determine on-line. You don’t really want me to give you the gore on Billy’s uncompromising approach to the game, or do you?

  394. AllyPally says:

    Morag, you have some reputation in this community. A lot of people asked me if I was you. I should maybe have said yes and claimed a drink!

  395. ianbrotherhood says:

    @CameronB-
     
    Gotcha. Forgive my slowness today – feeling a bit fuzzy after celebrating last night as well as Saturday.

  396. cath says:

    I’m really regretting posting those photos now. It was just a question, and not a particularly important one. If it had been clear cut either way I wouldn’t have asked for other opinions; it wasn’t intended to start a fight!

  397. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Thanks to everyone who has put up photos of the march.
    What is really sickening S.D. is that photo you put up of Stu refreshing himself. I reckon I was within TWENTY FEET of him and didn’t even know it. We had “parked up” in Fleshmarket Close which runs down the West side of the open air seating area in front of the Albanach. If I had only known then what I know now…………….I’d still be non the wiser! :lol:

    Almost forgot, can anyone suggest how I can upload a couple of photo’s myself?
    I have a couple of photos with me and a couple of weel kent faces that everyone ‘might’ recognise. :D:

  398. Xander says:

    You’ll need to upload them to a free photo website and then copy and paste link to that online location into your comment. I don’t know a great deal about such stuff, but flickr, photobucket, dropbox and other sites could be of use. Perhaps someone who has actually done this can give you the rundown. Unfortunately that person isn’t me. Check which sites others have used above to post their photos online.
    Alternatively, if you have a personal website, you could upload there and link to that, though their is limited allowable traffic on many of the free website providers.
    Sorry I can’t help further, being a bit of an IT novice.

  399. Eddie says:

    C’mon kiddies, keep the semanatics and sqaubbles for when you are dealing with our unionist chums. 
     
    As far as I am concerned, anyone who posts here in favour of independence can consider me a friend, as we all should be, striving for the same goal.  Cut each other some slack when it comes to anything that may slightly irk you, we deserve that much at least.

  400. Alan Gerrish says:

    Last minute rush to say something as I’ve been up all night reading all the great posts ( as well as the PCSA pish, but such is the price of having a democratic site I guess).
    Having attended the Rally  on Saturday, I have to say I’ve never experienced such a heavy dose of positivity and well-being following any event in my lifetime, and although partly in charge of a 1-yr and 4-yr old during the day never once felt anything other than safe and supported by the other 20+ thousand on the march; quite incredible and a massive thanks to all who worked to make it possible.  
    I share everyone’s frustration at the fact all the BritNat press and broadcasters have failed spectacularly in conveying anything on the substance of the event (as expected, although it angers me every time) and so I think this area of communication is one we need to really tackle asap as time is really in short supply already if we are going to reverse Project Fear’s cowardly and lazy attempts at spin.  I don’t know how much/ if any contact was made with foreign (why do I now hate that word?) press and TV stations to cover the event but I think for the future it should be an absolute priority to do so. If we could gain a commitment before an event that RT and others would attend we could then advertise the fact as widely as possible and encourage folk to hear and see for themselves (we could also let them know we were doing this as so far their own broadcaster had let them down by not telling them what was really going on !).
    I also agree there should be more than one more rally and although there are plenty of possible reasons for not having it in Glasgow I think on balance there are many more for having it, covered nicely by Dave McEwan Hill.
     Irrespective of location though, I think we need to focus on specific issues in a series of mini rallies (although they might be just as well attended) which, together with guaranteed coverage and promulgation would possibly overcome the present media blackout on positive information for those who need it.  Further, I think THE essential issue to explore first of all is the Economics of independence as this is fundamental to whether or not the undecideds get past base one in  taking any positive steps towards a Yes vote.
    Many have already remarked on the excellent presentation by Prof Mike Danson (pity this is not on Youtube btw) although a lot of folk had left the hill by then. Everything he said should be disseminated as widely as possible, and apart from himself there could also be input from Business for Scotland, and why not a Norwegian economics input to help folk compare and contrast, and I’m sure there could be others as well. I’m just feeling that the rallies as we have them at present are excellent for reinforcing, bonding,and reinvigorating all those who are already Yes voters and for making a statement of presence and conviction.  This is extremely important and has been very effectively done, so I’m not trying to knock the concept, but I feel the core issues of independence need to be brought to the consciousness of the widest public through the vehicle of a rally as well, perhaps with a more general political input to link these issues into the referendum debate.
    The foregoing might just sound like more p..h to some, but at least I can blame the Rally for stimulating the thought processes…
     
     

  401. Xander says:

    @Arbroath 1320, I believe you need to upload your photos to a free online site and then link to that location in your comment. Perhaps someone who has done so to some of the websites above, flickr, photobucket, dropbox etc can talk you through it. Unfortunately, that person isn’t me.
     
    Sorry I can’t help further, but I am certain that many, many other Wingers will be able to help you on this point.
     

  402. JLT says:

    Arbroath 1320
    Mate, Can’t promise this will work, as in general, I prefer to keep things private (working in IT, and then messing around on the internet can make one paranoid!) …but after a wee debate about the numbers on Saturday, I posted a couple of photos on Google+.

    Here’s what to do…..

    Enter ‘Google+’ on the search bar on your browser, and you should be taken to a page showing ‘Google+ and a line below saying ‘Sign in and start sharing with Google+’
    On the right hand side of that page is the logon part. In the top right, click on ‘Create an account’
    Enter in your email address and a password. Once you have done that …sign in (if it doesn’t do that for you as you create the account)
    On the Google page, on the left hand side, look for an icon called ‘Photos’. A new window will open.
    Now …open the folder that has your photo’s. Drag one of your photo’s (Click on it, hold the mouse button, and drag it to the Google screen where it says ‘Drag Photo’s here’
    you will see an uploading bar. After a few seconds, the photo will be on your own personal Google page. Look for a ‘share’ button (it’s green if I remember, and click on share with public (or something like that).
    Once you have uploaded all your photos. Open up the first photo. On the top bar (where it says ‘https:’ …highlight and copy this line (CTRL + C – hold down together on the keyboard, or right-click your mouse, and choose copy from the new menu that will be displayed). Go to the Wings over Scotland page. Go to where we would usually type our point of view, and just paste (CTRL + V) in there. And hopefully, that should be you!
     
    Someone might have an easier way …but this will give you your own Google+ page for posting and commenting in a different way. If you want to remove photo’s, you just remove them from your Google page. Just remember your password when signing on!!! It’s an unbelievably common mistake – folk forgetting their password!
     
    Hope this helps!
     
     

  403. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    TJenny
     
    I believe that you have another nom de guerre, The Martini Girl?

  404. TJenny says:

    Lordy BtP what do you mean? Is that not an expresion usually alluding to ladies of easy virtue or do you mean I’m Joan Collins? I’m neither. Please explain as don’t want to ruin the memory of our lovely, but brief, meeting:-(

  405. kendomacaroonbar says:

    BTP  T Jenny….. I’m getting some popcorn…. ok sorted… please continue :-)

  406. JLT says:

    Arbroath 1320,
     
    Let me know how you get on mate. If you do decide to go with Google+, then as I said, there should be a couple of links on the ‘Reader’s Lives’ (a previous post from yesterday). If you do a search for me (do CTRL-F) and enter ‘JLT’, you will eventually come across my post with the links.
    Sign on to your Google+, and click on my links. If you see the photos, then you know you have set yourself up properly. Let me know when you have updated your photos, and uploaded them. Enter the links on this page (WoS) and I’ll try them out …and thus …will let you know.
     
    Cheers again!

  407. castle hills chavie says:

    Just wanted to add my two penneth worth. Myself, the wife{Greek} and 10yr old laddie had a great time Sat, although he tired towards the end and was a little bored with the speeches, which were wonderful.
    Saw the WoS flag, but didn’t come over as the laddie freaks out a little with big crowds, but want also to send my fond regards to the Rev for the Wings site. Found it about 6 weeks ago, via a guardian article and handandshrimp, it was like finding the mothership….
    As someone said earlier, I regulary attend footie matches to watch the mighty Berwick Rangers and can confirm, judging by their crowds that there was definatly more than 400 hundred there.
    Also got two of the Yes placards that were being handed out at the rally, one in the back window and one in the front window, put them up sunday afternoon, about 6pm was standing at the front window as a car drove by, the guy driving looked up at the window, saw the Yes and gave a coupkle of toots on the horn….and that in the heart of Springburn……..GRAND……..

  408. twenty14 says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    23 September, 2013 at 7:38 am

    “For Stuart …the look on his face was also brilliant. You could see he was overwhelmed at the number of folk coming up to shake his hand and thank him for his brilliant efforts. I don’t think he ever expected such a fantastic reception.”
     
    I can confirm the above. Well, except that I don’t know what the look on my face was like.
     
    Rev Stu I can confirm I have the pics of this very moment captured in time ” and, if I do say so myself, very professional looking too due to the new shiny birthday camera of which I have no feckin idea how it works. Will send them via contact as , like my camera, have noi dea how it works on here. Just to add  -a pleasure shaking the hand of someone who will have played a major role in our Country’s history

  409. Bugger (the PANDA) says:

    Tjenny
    Panda can be obsessed and not only with bamboo.
    I just meant that it was a pleasure meet andf march with you, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE.
    Bisous.

  410. TJenny says:

    BtP – aw, sorry to have, thankfully, misunderstood, and (having googled bisous) – right back at you ;-)

  411. tartanfever says:

    Thanks for that link Alba.
    Now we know why no-one on the march could hear the pipe band, they were away and round onto North bridge before the walk had even started. They had a bigger bloody lead than Vettel in a Grand Prix !
     
    Tell you what, these organisers need to get media savvy. You don’t let the press dictate the  proceedings. If you want a photo opportunity of the VIP’s do it before the march actually starts off. The crowd could hardly see Nicola Sturgeon and the rest because they were swamped by snappers. Give them the photo op beforehand, cause when the march starts they are going to be cleared off the road.
     
    At one point Nicola goes over to give someone in the crowd a hug and she’s charged upon by the snappers. If that had happened anywhere else in the world where a leading politician was marching, those snappers would have been pounced upon by the police or security.
     
    Completely ruining the effect of an organised march by splintering it to give the snappers free reign is stupid. People standing down on Waterloo Place must have though ‘What’s going on here, the band passed by 5 mins ago, where are the marchers ?’
     
    I noticed also that during the speeches you could see performers on stage in the background getting set up as the speeches were happening ! People randomly walking across stage, photographers and so on. That was utterly shambolic. The press should be herded to a pen for photo opportunities of the speakers in front of the stage, they should never be allowed to wander back and forth.
     
     

  412. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Well let’s see if this works shall we *deep intake of breath*
     
    www.plus.google.com/photos/101639850456727702167/albums/5926883641060975393?utm_source=chrome_ntp_icon
     
    If by some magic this has worked the link should be two photos. Each photo should have a rather weel kent face and some eegit missing their front tooth and wearing a cowboy hat! If this has not worked then I’m sorry Stu for wasting time here. :lol:
     
    Here goes nothing!

  413. Arbroath 1320 says:

    What do you know, I think I’ve done it old chap what? :D:
     
    Thanks for your help JLT :P:

  414. Ann says:

    What must have been really encouraging to the Yes campaigners or Saturday was the on lookers.  The parade will probably have been spoken about in many hundreds if not thousands of homes, pubs etc.
    Going above the above clip they were packed out on either side of the street.
    As for football supporters wearing their colours at the next march I’ll wear my club colours.

  415. Morag says:

    Arbroath, the site says you have to give me permission to view the photos, otherwise it won’t let me see them.

  416. Arbroath 1320 says:

    Alba4Eva says

    The most amazing video  ) 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_n7PrPreN0 
     
    Thanks for the link Alba.
    I’ve just shown my partner and we even managed to find her in the video, just before the end. :P:
     
    At least someone in this household is famous. :lol:
    Think I’ll need to get a taller wheelchair for next year. :D

  417. Arbroath 1320 says:

     
    Morag says:

    Arbroath, the site says you have to give me permission to view the photos, otherwise it won’t let me see them.

      
    Sorry about that Morag, I thought everything was going too easy. :D:
    I think I’ve figured out what was wrong, or rather what I did NOT do. :lol:
    Hope everything is OK this time!
     
    plus.google.com/photos/101639850456727702167/albums/5926883641060975393?utm_source=chrome_ntp_icon&authkey=CNzb8afGi7jFugE

  418. Morag says:

    Yes, working fine now.  Great pics!
     
    And I think I saw you but I HAD NO IDEA YOU WERE ARBROATH 1320!
     
    AND I GAVE SOME RANDOM STRANGER ONE OF THE SILVER BADGES IN THE UTTERLY STUPIDLY MISGUIDED IMPRESSION IT WAS YOU!!
     
    OK, I’ll go and have a wee lie down now.

  419. tartanfever says:

    Nice photos Arb.
    I had some concerns about you getting up the hill when you mentioned it last week, but going by the photos you had a great time hobnobbing with the big wigs !
    I succumbed to proper man-flu on Friday and by Saturday felt too lousy to even get out of bed. So disappointed.
    Chuffed you made it though. 
     

  420. X_Sticks says:

    Thaks for the link Alba4Eva. Do you know who posted it – is it Catalonian tv?
     
    Far better than any of the coverage from the british broadcasters (both of them).
     
    Apart from the same observations as tartanfever about the organisational screw-up in allowing the march to be split I have to say you don’t often see so many happy Scots!
     
    As for the discussion about the venue and organisation. I’d stick to the Capital. Gather on the High Steet. The fit could march down the Mound, along Princes St up Northbridge back up the High St, up George IV bridge to the Meadows. Those less firm could just go from the high St up to the Meadows.
     
    On the organisational front can anyone get some of the Scottish music festival organisers involved. All the Scottish festivals, Rockness, T in the Park, Wickerman, Belladrum are all very good at this and we could use their expertise. There is no need for lack of toilets or amenities.
     
    There should be better advertising, free transport (or crowdsourced anyway) and the emphasis should be on a family event. Loads of stuff for kids.
     
    More music, bigger names (no disrespect to the musicians this year who were all (nearly) very good, but as others have said, Annie Lennox, Proclaimers, Simple Minds, Biffy Clyro, Primal Scream, Mogwai, Admiral Fallow…..I could go on and on, but these names would pull people in.
     
    Lastly, I’d just like to say; we’re all (apart from a couple of trolls) all on the same side here. As someone else pointed out, we have enough to contend with dealing with the british empire. Falling out over what are, in the grand scheme of  things, minor details is just plain silly.
     

    PS
    On the numbers game, I really don’t think it matters other than the blatant lie from BBC Scotland. That should be questioned. All that really matters is that we were all there. There was more than last time. There will be more next time. Come the referendum I am confident we will have enough.
     

  421. JLT says:

    Arbroath 1320 says:     
     
    Apologies, Arbroath …I’m only getting back to you right now. I was working until 11pm last night. I had time for an hour yesterday (when I posted a guide), but from 5.30 onwards, I was working till 11 upgrading memory in PC’s (outside hours due to the area we are upgrading are traders and stock brokers – no chance of getting on their PC’s during the day!).

    I’m tired and my thumbs are sore at 7.15am …uuurgh….(why god …why?)
     
    However, the good news is …I can see your photo’s, and am rather envious that you met Nicola and Blair Jenkins. To be honest, I think I would have been too over-awed if I had met them.
     
    Anyway …brilliant. It works.
     
    Arbroath …apart from my advice about remembering your Passwords. I also advise documenting what you have learned. I mean …really, really document it. Do it almost like a step-by-step, and describe what you are doing in each step. Seriously, it helps big time when you come to do this again at some point in the future. For me, I document everything, because, there really is so much to remember, and I seriously mean that!
     
    Cheers again

  422. DonDeefLugs says:

    @arbroath1320 @JLT
    Download Picasa, which manages Google photos, from here http://picasa.en.softonic.com
    Once it’s installed, just open the program and it’ll find your photos, organise them, give you the option to upload, share etc. It’s a handy wee tool :-) 

  423. JLT says:

    Hi don, how’s it going, mate!
     
    Will do. I’m working solid most nights this week. Have got tonight off, so will have a peek then. I’ve skived away for 20 minutes. Mean’t to be doing my expenses …but I just can’t help myself. Gotta have a peek and see what the Rev has posted now. Anyway …I do have to shoot. Been asked to collect kit from another engineer. Will catch up with you on Facebook, matey!
     
    Cheers again.

  424. Gwiz says:

     A  wee bit late. http://www.pbase.com/gwiz/fill_the_hill
    Rev it was a huge pleasure to meet you and shake your hand. Thank you for everything you do.

  425. DonDeefLugs says:

    @Gwiz
    Well worth the wait, some great photos there.

  426. mutterings says:

    @Morag, @Bugger (the Panda)
    I just came across a photo of you at the March & Rally.
     
    Also, on page #2 of my puppy’s photo album there are a couple of pictures which were taken at the March & Rally.

  427. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Thanks Mutterings



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