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Wings Over Scotland


Introducing… the Union Jocks

Posted on May 28, 2013 by

The No campaign makes for some unlikely bedfellows.

unionjocks2

We’d like you to meet our new favourite patriots.

‘BIG’ JOCK McCLUGGERTY (left)

“Ah’ll tell ye whit, Sir Jock – ah’m no’ wantin’ tae make foreigners oot o’ oor fellow Brits. It’s bad enough already huvin’ they bastart Irish here.”

SIR JOCK FINLAY-URQUHART-DUNCAN (right)

“Quite so, Jock. After all, if I wanted my children to be foreign I wouldn’t have made my au pair have all those abortions.”

Tune in for more proud-Scot laughs soon!

————————————————————————————-

Biographies

‘Big Jock’ William Boyne Windsor Shankill Loyal McCluggerty is an internationalist socialist, community leader and hereditary Labour voter who’s spent his entire life in the same council house in Larkhall.

Sir Jock Finlay-Urquhart-Duncan is a high-ranking civil servant and former army Captain who left the forces early after a hushed-up incident in Rhodesia in 1972 saw a native porter accidentally bayonet himself several times in the buttocks. Born in Kent but educated at Gordonstoun and St Andrews, he once stood as the Conservative candidate for East Renfrewshire, securing 19,000 votes but losing by 500 to the Labour candidate after a surprise late influx of 11,000 postal ballots.

They met when Big Jock was sent to paint the clubhouse of Sir Jock’s golf club in Newton Mearns as community service after some high spirits on an Orange walk at which several passers-by were brutally beaten, and discovered a common bond.

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148 to “Introducing… the Union Jocks”

  1. Barontorc says:

    Strangely, I don’t see them as ‘unlikely’ bedfellows – must be the conditioner I’ve been  getting! Not, the ‘hale-fellow, well met’ bunch I’m used to though.

  2. Davy says:

    You to can have friends like these !!! if you vote NO.

  3. velofello says:

    Inappropriate. 
    We must aspire to build trust and friendships through example and persuasion. This is a bad example.

  4. Brian says:

    I think I have seen the one on the right posing with an ex-Prime Minister. Sorry Iain!

  5. Ron says:

    @velofello
     
    Agreed. I’m uneasy. Do we react with disappointment to similar characterisations of supporters of independence? I’d prefer we satirise those specific individuals who say those words, not make generalisations about groups of people.
     
    Just my opinion.

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Blimey, we haven’t exaggerated them enough to be obviously comic?

  7. Jamie Arriere says:

    Bedfellows? Er, the homo-erotic tension in that picture is ‘palpable’ – the question is : Does he keep his hat on? Is he called ‘Big Jock’ for nothing? Does that chair have an engine in it?

  8. handclapping says:

    Whats comic about about them? Put Big Jock’s belly on Sir FUD and you’ve got me going to the Country Dancing.

  9. Jiggsbro says:

    Whats comic about about them? Put Big Jock’s belly on Sir FUD and you’ve got me going to the Country Dancing.
     
    I think the comedy is more in the words than the image. But do you really wear a Union Jack bowtie to the dancing?

  10. Seanair says:

    Don’t think Big Jock would have a picture of a Westie and a Scottie on his wall (too Scottish). More like a Rottweiler or Staffie man I would think!!

  11. MajorBloodnok says:

    Anyone insisting on wearing tartan trews instead of the kilt in my dining circles is, in my opinion, deeply suspect.  Particularly those that wear trews that go all the way up to their oxters.

  12. Iain Macmillan says:

    Dearie Jings Velofello and Ron. If we can’t rip the pish out of these numpties we’re fucked imho! 

  13. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Brilliantly sums up the Scottish supporters of the British Establishment.
    A bunch of illiterate bigoted bampots who reside in a 17th century vacuum who are too thick to realise the economic realities of political union, and the gentry(and minor gentry) who’s only motivation in personal greed.   
    Sir Jock’s opinion of Big Jock? Well these chaps are peasants, but they know their place. However they are essential if we are to have any chance of securing a no vote in order for their betters to maintain their wealth and influence.

  14. handclapping says:

    @jiggsbro
    Oh Grandmama, what sharp eyes you’ve got!

  15. Doug Daniel says:

    handclapping – credit where credit is due though – you were the first to notice Sir Jock’s rather convenient initials 😉

  16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Don’t think Big Jock would have a picture of a Westie and a Scottie on his wall (too Scottish).”

    They’re wee dugs, to go with his favourite snack of wee sausage rolls 😀

  17. gerry parker says:

    Would be interesting to learn more about Postal votes.  I’ve heard of them, and assume it’s for people who are eligible to vote but cannot make it to the polling station.
    Anyone enlighten me to the “System”
    Thanks in advance. 

  18. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    You’re right. More like a British Bulldog called Winston.

  19. TYRAN says:

    Would make good t-shirts. A character on the front and Wings Over Scotland name/logo on reverse.

  20. Silverytay says:

    gerry parker    
    As far as I am aware anyone can apply for a postal vote and get one .
    Due to being a school janitor and working odd hours I normally do my voting by postal voting .
    As far as the referendum is concerned I am hoping to take the 18th & 19 off so that I can vote in person and to help drive people to the polls , the 19th is hopefully for the biggest party in Scotland,s history .

  21. Vronsky says:

    ‘Anyone enlighten me to the “System”’
    Simple.  You inform your local branch of the Labour Party that you’d like a postal vote.  That’s it – no further action required.  Ever.  You might subsequently discover that at some point you seem to have become a member of the party (especially if you live around Falkirk way). It’s routine, don’t worry about it.
     

  22. Doug Daniel says:

    http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/how_do_i_vote/voting_by_post.aspx
     
    Who can apply for a postal vote?
     
    Anyone aged 18 or over who is on the electoral register can apply for a postal vote. You do not need a reason to vote by post.

  23. Juteman says:

    Is the one on the right Nicky Fairbairn? I’m sure i’ve seen those troosers before. 🙂

  24. Yesitis says:

    I love me some proud Scots from North Britain.
    A wee while back I remember one Tory twitter proud Scot ask another Tory twitter proud Scot “what will they do when we vote No?”, the reply was an assured “they`ll probably crawl back under their stones”, or something like that.
     
    Here`s some proud Scots and some typical North Britnat proud Scots twitter speak. I love it, they`re almost cuddly.
    https://twitter.com/KeithRSteele/status/338988555156213760
     
    Remember, the Saltire is not just for Christmas.
     

  25. Doug Daniel says:

    I see one of those Tweeters is called “BritishUnity”. That name reminds me of something else for some reason…
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Union_of_Fascists

  26. Caroline Corfield says:

    Ah, Rev, you’ve been away too long. They unfortunately resonate too well with specific individual I know to be classed as caricature for me at least and quite possibly for others. However, what they don’t represent is the group of labour voting middle class professionals and skilled workers I also know who are voting No at the moment, for vague ‘Britishness’ reasons one could possibly link back to childhood environments that weren’t Orange but weren’t neutral either. I’m naturally the sort of person who avoids confrontation, as a consequence of not wanting to get involved in discussions about ‘association’ I never listened to either Simple Minds or U2 when they first came out. Where I grew up sorting the world into them and us was just the way things were. Some stuff sticks. Even when you grow up. Even when you don’t want it to stick. It is soooo refreshing to live in a place where no one cares what school you went to. This sectarian aspect to the debate must be dragged out and eviserated in the cold logical light of the 21st century otherwise it is a real danger to the self-determination of the people of the whole of Scotland despite it being a West of Scotland issue. Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant, I have unresolved issues with this obviously.

  27. sneddon says:

    Ron and velofello
    These comic characters are nowhere near the full horror of what is out there in real life.  I think it neatly satirises two particular aspects of Brit Nationalism.  If they can paint me as a blue faced, hairy arsed patriot, being polite to them won’t make a blind bit of difference.   

  28. Chic McGregor says:

    Another oldie of mine speculating about what Union Jack McConnell might be planning for the next Tartan Day event in the USA following his infamous pin-striped kilt the previous year.
     
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8CTHz_DTDtlRWRoSk5vSFd2ckk/edit?usp=sharing

  29. We at the state broadcaster might be concerned by the possibility of competition, but are reassured by regular reminders that there is no political satire in Scotlandshire.

  30. GP Walrus says:

    Not funny. 

  31. Ron says:

    @sneddon
     
    I understand the cartoon, and those it satirises.
     
    However to those ordinary undecided/soft NO voters who may see themselves reflected in those stereotypes (rightly or wrongly), the cartoon surely does not help make the argument for independence.
     
    By contrast, satirising the individuals (Curran etc) who have actually made the comments and the comments themselves, makes more sense to me, exposing how ridiculous their arguments are to those who might see themselves as the target in the cartoon.

  32. Les Wilson says:

    Reading about “Big Jock” comment at the end highlights one of labour’s standard tactics -postal votes.
    Something that will have to be looked at VERY carefully come September 2014.

  33. HandandShrimp says:

    I had tartan trews when I was 5. Quite possibly the most uncomfortable trousers I have ever had. I think they were woven from purest sandpaper.

  34. Ron says:

    BBC Scotlandshire: satirising the individuals and their words, rather than groups who may hold that opinion, but may not.

  35. MajorBloodnok says:

    HandandShrimp – The answer is reversible sandpaper trews – one side’s got what you need, but the other side’s got what you want.

  36. Yesitis says:

    Les Wilson
    “Reading about “Big Jock” comment at the end highlights one of labour’s standard tactics -postal votes.
    Something that will have to be looked at VERY carefully come September 2014.”
     
    We should start by scrutinising next month`s Donside by-election in Aberdeen for postal voting irregularities. Remember Glenrothes?

  37. sneddon says:

    @Ron
    Maybe it says more about me and my social group but I can’t see anyone identifying themselves with any of these stereotypes.  As regards floating voters I’m sure they’d see the humour in it 🙂

  38. a supporter says:

    Iain Macmillan says:28 May, 2013 at 12:01 pm
     

    Dearie Jings Velofello and Ron (does it include Caroline Corfield too). If we can’t rip the pish out of these numpties we’re fucked imho! 

    I agree and I agree with ‘sneddon’ too. It seems there are also some very odd bedfellows in the Independence movement as well!

  39. Doug Daniel says:

    Ron – the likelihood of someone who sees themselves reflected in these blatant caricatures reading Wings is pretty slim. On top of that, the likelihood of such people even entertaining the idea of voting for independence is even slimmer – pretty much non-existent, in fact. To be honest, if any sane person actually looks at the Jocks and thinks “that’s me!”, then obviously the caricature hasn’t gone far enough!
     
    In regards to satirising individuals, such people are not beyond claiming they’re being targeted for abuse – and Curran is a prime example of that. The whole point of caricatures is to take an idea and exaggerate it for effect, to show how ludicrous it is. You can’t always do that to the same extent with individuals, because they can simply say “you’re accusing me of saying things I didn’t say”. It’s unlikely that either of the Jocks will turn around and accuse Wings of misrepresenting them.
     
    (Although they might have if they’d been around a few weeks ago…)

  40. Ron says:

    @sneddon   “Maybe it says more about me and my social group but I can’t see anyone identifying themselves with any of these stereotypes.  As regards floating voters I’m sure they’d see the humour in it”
     
    Sure. And we all see the humour in nationalists depicted as “blue faced, hairy arsed” Mel Gibson types. I’m just not sure it helps anyone. Satirising the individuals, to expose their lies or idiocy, that does help I think.

  41. Ron says:

    @Doug Daniel
     
    Doug, I think I’ll drop it and move on 😉 but I think you’re underestimating who reads wingsoverscotland, the vast majority never comment and we really have no clue about their voting intentions.
     
    I’m not saying we should be worried about offending the specific targets of the cartoon particularly. But the danger is the cartoon is viewed (or portrayed) as the no camp = the extremes in the cartoon. We rightly criticise cartoons in the Scotsman etc for depicting an extreme as an attack on the whole.

  42. Spout says:

    Mason “Big Jock” Boyne – a No voter?
     

  43. Dal Riata says:

    @Ron
    Come on, you can’t be serious if you think someone would look at that cartoon and say, “That’s ME, that is. Those fuckin’ bastardin’ Nationalists [sic] are takin’ the pish oot a ME! Thur no’ gonnae git away wi this, hell no!!”, are you? If anyone does, then they deserve to be mocked.
     
    This is takin’ the pish out of certain stereotypes. If it was mocking certain races of people, or genders, or religions then you would most probably be right to be offended in some way. 
     
    Lighten up a bit. You’re beginning to sound like some faux-over-sensitive Unionists who deliberately look to find offence in anything written or said that is pro-Scottish independence. If they were to cause a stushie over the above cartoon they’d be laughed at from now until the referendum…actually, let’s hope they do!

  44. Doug Daniel says:

    Ha! I’d never seen Mason Boyne before – love the painting of the leaves!
     
    He got death threats for that character apparently… http://www.thefreelibrary.com/I+GOT+DEATH+THREATS+FOR+TV+MASON+BOYNE%3B+Coltrane's+Orangeman+sparked…-a0284495563

  45. The Man in the Jar says:

    I think that we need a third character in the cartoon. “Jock Wetnat”

  46. Ron says:

    @Dal Riata
     
    I didn’t say any of those things, and I’m certainly not offended.  *shrugs*
     

  47. Ananurhing says:

    Hilarious, and perfectly legitimate caricatures. Most No voters won’t personally identify with the characters, but it might help to highlight the folly of some of the ill informed, spurious Unionist platitudes and untruths.
    You wouldn’t have to travel very far in Scotland to meet either of them personified. I’ve met and worked with several McCluggertys in the past, and I live amongst a few Sir Jocks now. Can’t say I rub shoulders with them though. Now there’s a bizarre cultural social dynamic that prevails over more of Scotland than is healthy for a 21stC progressive democracy.  
     
    Union Jocks! Why have I never thought of that before? Look forward to more. 

  48. turnip_ghost says:

    Apologies for going off topic for this but I’m not sure if this is taking the mick of BBC News, if they’ve finally started reporting accurately or if BBC Scotlandshire have started broadcasting…

    Cheered me right up!

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    As cartoons go these are mild in comparison to the Scotsman one which really was pretty dreadful and did seek to paint the Yes campaign in darkest hues. The cartoons above could have come straight out of Punch.

  50. Catrine says:

    Like Velofello and Ron,   I don’t find anything humorous at all in this cartoon, and am quite taken aback by its crudity.   There have to be cleverer ways of promoting the cause of independence than this type of inappropriate stuff.

  51. Indion says:

     
    Perhaps the intent of this blogpost would be complemented and laid bare by a pish taking parallel satire on seeing ourselves as the Unitarists see us.

    Suggest it could be titled/themed along the lines of ‘The Furrin Legion’.

  52. Doug Daniel says:

    Oh well, next time someone asks “Why is there no satire in Scottish politics?” we can just point them to some of the comments on here.
     
    Ho hum…

  53. MajorBloodnok says:

    We already have Hamish as a Parsley-like lion wearing a tammy, which is exactly how Unionists see us.

  54. Indion says:

     
    Hamish is attractive.
    Take it to a level that even we would be pissed off by the extreme exaggeration and only the Unitarists would recognise reflects the shite they’re peddling.
    We’re not going to get the Unitarist vote. So it’s the Unitarists we need to separate from their pronounced unitary version of union not being equal at all if we are to succeed in transforming Union as a State into Union between States.

  55. Morag says:

    Turnip Ghost, that video montage is superb.  “And now a reminder of tonight’s – salacious gossip.”

    The sound track is so seamless I wonder how it was done.

  56. CamronB says:

    There’s no accounting for personal taste, especially regarding humour. Lots of folk seem to think Limmey is funny, where as I think he is laboured and not very original. Indeed, I have mates with better patter and delivery, and on the same subject matter.
     
    This was only our introduction to these characters. Lets just see how they develop and if they in fact turn out to be poignant or not.

  57. FreddieThreepwood says:

    @ Major
    Hamish is gonnae get you … Parsley-like?
    Your arse in parsley!

  58. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    28 May, 2013 at 12:57 pm
    @Caroline Corfield wrote

     
    “This sectarian aspect to the debate must be dragged out and eviserated in the cold logical light of the 21st century otherwise it is a real danger to the self-determination of the people of the whole of Scotland despite it being a West of Scotland issue.”
     
    ****************
    Caroline, I completely relate to your experience, and strongly support the strategy.
    The Sectarian Bondage that entraps many in the West of Scotland must be dismantled not only in a clinical & logical way, but also one which highlights the value to Social Justice in Civic Scotland of loving one’s neighbour. I would be very happy to contribute time and ideas to such a just and good cause. Such people need support to escape that mindset, and YES is only part of the answer.
     

  59. CamronB says:

    @ Freddie Threepwood
    I think I might be responsible for that comparison, which I didn’t think had been picked up on by anyone. I wanted an insight in to the artist’s inspiration, and couldn’t help myself at the thyme. A bit like his next one, which I am certain was based on Andy Capp. That’s the trouble when you are creative, everyone thinks they are critics. I’m sure you’ve come across the same attitude, once or twice.

  60. Neal says:

    I personally would prefer it if you stuck to what you’ve been doing previously, theres enough material out there for you to get your journalistic teeth into without resorting to cheep characterisation.
    I think this article is a bit counter productive Rev, it lowers the tone of the debate down to where the Better Together lot want it, slinging insults. It hurts the credibility of your excellent site and I think it would turn off the neutrals that we are trying to reach.
     

  61. Dal Riata says:

    @Catrine
    “…taken aback by its crudity.” “…inappropriate stuff.”
     
    Now, I’m not sure if you’re being satirical here, but if you’re not…. 
     
    What’s crude about it? What’s inappropriate about it, the line about abortions? It’s taking the pish out of certain stereotypes. Have you ever met, or been in the company of, those stereotyped above? I have, and I can tell you the lines attributed to them in the cartoon is mild compared to some of the things I’ve heard them say. I don’t want to print any of their outrageous views on here, but if I did, would I be surprised to see you come back with, “Oh, that’s disgraceful. They wouldn’t say that!”…Hhmm.
     
    People like that exist. They are a relic of a xenophobic, racist and bigoted Empire. If an independent Scotland wants to be seen as a forward-looking and inclusive society then they deserve to be mocked and derided and shown up for what they are at every opportunity.

  62. Tearlach says:

    Well thats me decided. As a happy trews wearer, rather than a kilt (work means lots of Black tie dos) I am so upset by this cartoon that, after being a supporter of indepenence for 40 years, I am now going to vote No.
    Aye right……..

  63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Man! Who knew you couldn’t please all the people all the time?

  64. Indion says:

     
    Agreed Amadeus @ 3:55pm following up Caroline Corfield @ 12:57pm
     
    Common tenets of the 3 Abrahamic – Christian, Muslim & Jewish – and secular humanist faiths like ‘loving one’s neighbour as one’s self’ and ‘doing/not doing unto others as one would wish/not wish to be done unto ourselves’ – as Humza confirmed when I pointedly asked him ages ago – are undoubtedly part of the so minded and heartening strand of the campaign for what independence offers to realise.
     
    It’s not an eye for an eye we’re looking for, but ayes for ayes and no’s not to cut off to spite their own and neighbours’ faces we should wish to see.
     
    Bye bye bigots. Hello re-enlightenment from whence it first came, but this time to be applied of, by and for ‘we, all the people’. 
     
    Perhaps Mrs Vronksky could confirm the US Declaration of Independence would have best included ‘all‘ if citizens were/are not to remain slavish subjects of and be slavishly subjected to the top down arbitrary rule of overlordship.
     
    EG, imagine how much worse the financially induced democratic and economic deficits and debts we’re mired in could have been had the Con’s won a majority of seats in the 2010 UK General Election.

  65. G. Campbell says:

    Chris Hoy opens gob = top story on BBC Scotland sport reports.

    Scotland and England join forces to crush Great Britain = BBC Scotland silence.

    “Derek Mapp has been forced to resign as British Amateur Boxing Association (BABA) chairman following an Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM) in a move set to have far-reaching repercussions for the sport in the UK.”

    “Mapp was forced to resign after both England and Scotland called for his removal, and only Wales voted to save him.”

    “We have overwhelmingly delivered on the public investment provided to boxing by UK Sport, yet there appear to be elements within the home nations that either resent the success of Great Britain or believe that the funding provided by UK Sport could be better allocated by themselves – even though it is awarded with the sole objective of winning medals which, under my Chairmanship, we have achieved,” Mapp said.

    “I have absolutely no doubt that removing me as chairman is the first stage in an orchestrated campaign by the two home nations to destroy the BABA, irrespective of the damage it would cause and with absolutely no regard for the interests of the boxers, coaching and support staff that have done such a fantastic job over the last four years.”

    http://www.insidethegames.biz/sports/summer/boxing/1014415-mapp-forced-out-as-british-amateur-boxing-association-chairman

    Background:
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/scots-will-suffer-if-gb-bodies-are-allowed-to-fly-st-georges-cross-in-everything-but-name.21166592

  66. G. Campbell says:

    Better together. Or else.

    “UK Sport has reacted to the removal of Derek Mapp as chairman of the British Amateur Boxing Association (BABA) by threatening to move responsibility for key funding to another body.”

    “‘UK Sport has, for some time, been closely monitoring the relationship between British Amateur Boxing Association (BABA) and the other home country boxing associations,’ CEO of UK Sport Liz Nicholl said in an official statement.”

    “The priority must be to ensure that British boxers preparing for Rio are backed with world-class support. Sadly some of the home nation boxing representatives seem to have lost sight of this.”

    “With Derek Mapp’s departure, there are now significant leadership risks to the World Class Programme, so UK Sport will take the steps necessary to improve the governance of boxing to ensure our elite athletes continue to be supported on their journey to world class success.”

    “The decision to part company with Mapp was made at an Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM) of BABA, following a resolution tabled by Amateur Boxing Scotland (ABS), who were unhappy with proposed changes within the sport.”

    “The alterations would have seen increased BABA Board voting rights at the expense of the Home Nation federations, leading to divisions within BABA by its three shareholders.”

    http://www1.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/8739774

  67. MajorBloodnok says:

    @Freddie & CameronB
     
    Thank you for that sage advice.

  68. ukip free zone says:

    Big Jock wouldn’t have a picture of the dugs on his wall. More likely he would have a reproduction of the famous painting of the charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo. Come to think of it Sir Jock would have that on his wall too. Only it would probably be the original.

  69. FreddieThreepwood says:

    @CamronB
    I’m pretty sure an old sage once told me that the late Jim Turnbull’s moth-eaten lion in the Herald circa 70s and 80s was the inspiration for Hamish. Chive known to be wrong however – thyme plays tricks on the ol’ memory.
     
     
    Anyhoo, 

  70. Aplinal says:

    2Major
     
    all we need now is to hear from Rosemary and we’ll have a full set.
     
    On the cartoon:  I can’t believe that people are taking it so seriously.  I laughed out loud at “he once stood as the Conservative candidate for East Renfrewshire, securing 19,000 votes but losing by 500 to the Labour candidate after a surprise late influx of 11,000 postal ballots.”
     
    Sense of proportion people.

  71. MajorBloodnok says:

    Having immediately exhausted the opportunities for herb based puns, may I point out that no-one complained about CC’s depiction of John Bull sawing off the EU branch with Hamish looking on helplessly.
     
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/call-the-fire-brigade/
     
    However, that thread is still open so those of you with symptoms of satire-bypass can indulge yourselves there.

  72. Vronsky says:

    @indion
    Mrs Vronsky has gone from being an emphatic No to reaching the stage where I have to sit on her to prevent her assaulting people who want us to stay in the Union. I think she’s treating it all as an opportunity to fight Gettysburg all over again. I don’t know her views on the American constitution, but she has demanded to be placed in charge of road signage when I become president, as she has demanded that I should. From the perspective of a Democrat Yankee, she tells me, our road signs are frickin shit, and you should all hang your heads. Frickin Brits.

  73. MajorBloodnok says:

    I’ll have what he’s having.

  74. Indion says:

     
    Rev Stu @ 4:54pm ‘Man! Who knew you couldn’t please all the people all the time?’
     

    Not you for sure, but certainly populists posing as popular whilst punting the popularly self-interested in 🙂
     
    Popular should be the public interest being self-determined rather than handed down from on high and mightily so remote from those they are no longer in touch to feel with them, as being so blind they see nought to look to, deaf they hear nought to listen to, and dumb they say nought to speak to that we find the taste to be distasteful is putting it mildly.   
     

  75. a supporter says:

    I cannot believe some of the po-faced comments on here about the excellent cartoon. Give us more Rev Stu and GCaol the cartoonist (if that name is incorrect i apologise but it was difficult to decipher). Perhaps a Rabbie Burns quotation would be apt.
    O a’ ye pious godly flocks,
    Weel fed on pastures orthodox,
    Wha now will keep you frae the fox,
    Or worrying tykes?
    Or wha will tent the waifs an’ crocks,
    About the dykes?
     

  76. Vronsky says:

    This Hamish stuff is difficult for me.  A thousand years ago, I had a girlfriend whose pet name for my…no, sorry, I can’t go on…

  77. MajorBloodnok says:

    Was it dill?

    D’oh!

  78. Indion says:

     
    Oops, correction to my end @ 5:39pm:
     
    ” Popular should be the public interest being self-determined rather than handed down from on high and mightily so remote from those they are no longer in touch to feel with them, as being so blind they see nought to look to, so deaf they hear nought to listen to, and so dumb they say nought to speak to that we find the overall taste to be so distasteful is putting it mildly.

  79. Tattie-boggle says:

    OMG If this is not Satire I don’t know what is..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kjuNuqIev8M

  80. cynicalHighlander says:

    That was mint. Was he speakin garlic?

  81. Dee says:

    Be Aware!!! Councillor Matheson hanging about Queen St, handing out leaflets tea time , god knows what was on the leaflets.. I’ll leave it up to you. you have to admit, he has some neck on him…

  82. Indion says:

     
    MajorBloodnok @ 5:35pm: ” I’ll have what he’s having. ”

    For the lewd not around here, what he’s having can’t be so crude as to be Mr V, so must be me now forlornly hoping the Major can’t lay hands on the keys to his wine cellar until I’m invited to find them 😉 

  83. Tattie-boggle says:

    O/T anyone seen this Crown Estate spending 320m in London and in partnership with another countries pension plan
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/10083928/Crown-Estate-agrees-320m-venture-to-revamp-St-Jamess.html

  84. Marcia says:

    Dee
     
    Maybe he was selling tickets this time. 😉

  85. Joybell says:

    @ Iain Macmillan (12 01 pm)
     
    I couldn’t agree more.  If we are afraid to caricature certain elements of our society we might as well live in Northern Ireland.  Coming from Belfast I have often wished certain types there could just see themselves as others see them.  
     
    If you’re either of the types above there’s no chance that you’ll vote yes, and most people in Scotland thankfully do not identify with either type.  

  86. john king says:

    o/t
    Elanor Bloody Bradford on Scottish news talking about norovirus 
    so  what do they use as a background video, well the m8 ground to a halt because of heavy snow in 2010 of course what else?
    the perfect background to the subject matter, 
    the disgraceful and transparent use of subliminal messaging by the BBC MUST  be challenged!
    just what justification do they have for highlighting an episode where the m8 was closed for 48 hours during the worst snows for many years, which in turn called for the resignation of the transports secretary Stewart Stevenson , in reporting on a virus for gods sake?
     
    feeling a complaint to the BBC coming on.

  87. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    @G Campbell-
     

    Chris Hoy opens gob = top story on BBC Scotland sport reports‘.
     
    Aye.
     
    That’s another for the list – athletes won’t have any adrenaline in an independent Scotland.

  88. velofello says:

    I commented on this article this morning and expressed my view that it was inappropriate and that we would gain support for a Yes vote by persuasion and example. i’ve since read through the comments ranging from:
    “Blimey, we haven’t exaggerated enough to be obviously comic. 
    “If we can’t rip the pish out of these numpties we’re fucked”.
    Some view the article as satire.
    Step back and apply a political litmus test.
    What chance that Yes Scotland will endorse this attempt at wit/satire and ask to feature it on leaflets? What do you reckon? Yes or No?
     

  89. Indion says:

     
    Joybell @ 6:52pm:  Agreed, but for – as per my 3:42pm – in our satirical portrayal of how others see us to the stretched beyond credulity eyes of all but the Unitarists and their Union as State instead of Union between States.
     
    It’s not independence or union, but independence and a transformed union that is the win-win of no better than best together. 

  90. handclapping says:

    @velofello
    But its not the Yes campaign, its an alternative Rev-view. 🙂

  91. Chic McGregor says:

     
    ianbrotherhood says:
    28 May, 2013 at 7:37 pm

     
    “@G Campbell-
     
    Chris Hoy opens gob = top story on BBC Scotland sport reports‘.
     
    Aye.
     
    That’s another for the list – athletes won’t have any adrenaline in an independent Scotland.”
     
    Yep, you just have to see how badly Serbia and Croatia are doing in football, tennis etc.  compared to when they were part of the mighty Yugoslavia.
     
    (For those possessing a rusty irony detector, this is satire).

  92. Albert Herring says:

    @john king
    BBC Labour obviously going for Alex Neil’s scalp.

  93. JLT says:

    Guys,
     
    To be honest, I would be very wary of this type of joke. I got it …but I didn’t like it. We are supposed to be winning these folk over, not ripping into them as a type of caricature. If there are Unionists coming on here, they won’t see the funny side of it. If anything, they’ll be pretty annoyed. That cartoon will not win them over – in fact, it might not even win the ‘Don’t knower’s’ over. Some might see it as a nasty form of nationalism.
    I believe we should be winning people over with proper and sensible arguments, not making fun of the unionists; especially if some of them are bordering on the very edge, and are very quietly falling into our camp. This may stop them.
    Politicians within the Unionist parties are there to be put to the sword, especially if their arguments are absolute nonsense. That I agree with. If they say something stupid, then it should be highlighted and ridiculed. I back you all the way on that, but not this.
    Let’s be honest, we all have friends who are pro-unionist, or even staunch supporters of a certain club in the west. If they see that cartoon above, believe me …they will not find it funny. If anything, the only ones we could be hurting, are ourselves, and that means its costing us votes.
    It’s just my opinion…
     

  94. Westie7 says:

    OT. Well what dto you know next to bugger all on BBC Jockland news and now two days before FMQ and the A&E/NHS stories crop up. Am I meant to believe this will go on unchallenged for the next year and a bit. 🙁

  95. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    If we’re going to get squeamish about using satire, why don’t we just stick to established fact and start publishing portraits and potted biographies of the umpteen-thousand of our fellow Scots who died of hypothermia in the thirty-four winters since we would’ve gone independent if told the truth by mandarins/politicians (many of whom have enjoyed long lives and ‘successful’ careers)?
     
    (Sorry- it’s an unwieldy sentence, but it was an awful lot longer before I stripped out all the swearing. Wouldn’t want to offend, y’know…)

  96. MajorBloodnok says:

    The BBC is just laying the groundwork for Labour’s performance at FMQ, as has been the pattern this last year.  It’s not a conspiracy, it’s co-ordinated – and a fat lot of use it’s doing Labour and the BBC too.  However, they have no other strategy so let them carry on – names have no doubt been taken.  That is all.

  97. BuckieBraes says:

    Haven’t decided which side of the fence to come down on regarding this item. However, there appears to be an erroneous apostrophe in St Andrews.
     
    Sorry.

  98. Pedro says:

    My tuppence worth is that it’s a pretty decent ‘caricature’ of those who may describe themselves as ‘Union Jocks’.
     

  99. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What chance that Yes Scotland will endorse this attempt at wit/satire and ask to feature it on leaflets? What do you reckon? Yes or No?”

    None whatsoever. See also: a large proportion of the other articles posted here. If this site was running the same campaign as Yes Scotland, we’d be redundant.

    You don’t like it. That’s fine. There’ll be another post along soon.

  100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “However, there appears to be an erroneous apostrophe in St Andrews.”

    Y’know, I had a nagging feeling there was. Should have checked. Fixed now, ta.

  101. JLT says:

    Ianbrotherhood / Others,
    I can see what you are saying, but the one question is…
     
    ‘Who is the cartoon for?’
     
    Is it for us, so we can all laugh at the very worst aspects of Unionism? I can’t see it convincing the so-called ‘Mason Boynes’ to the error of their ways. It will only harden them.
    There are many people out there in Scotland, who do believe in certain forms of Britishness (not the extreme level as above, but they do believe in some of the better parts of it), but are yet swaying to the Yes vote. That cartoon does us no favours. It plays to no one, but to our own ‘Nationalist’ humour.
    All it needs is for some of the Labour politicians or councillors to get a hold of it, and they will happily hold this site up as a very nasty cybernat site, and a very anti-British website. You know what the media are like in this country. They will take the very worst aspects of that cartoon and paint us all black.
    In my opinion, amongst the Scottish people, there will be those who consider themselves ‘Soft Britons’, and so, will vote Yes; not out of the Nationalism that most of us on this site truly openly feel, but because they believe that even though they are British, deep down within them, there is a sense of nationalism that tells them to do the right thing; to vote Yes, because it is for …Scotland! This cartoon could alienate them, and even convince them that the papers are correct …that all Nationalism is nasty.
    To be honest, Rev …I wouldn’t want to see these 2 characters above, ever again. Do what you set yourself out to do. Tell the truth in a positive, quiet dignified way. The cartoon above, only takes us down the same path as that of some of the unionist papers.

  102. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “They will take the very worst aspects of that cartoon and paint us all black.”

    We’ve had this argument before. They’ll do that regardless of what we do. If we haven’t learned that by now, we’ve learned nothing.

  103. Indion says:

     
    JLT @ 8:11 & 8:50pm: The ‘To be honest’s are superflous in your case. Leave it to the ‘tell’ of the dishonest. Even ‘frankly’ runs the same risk, so not to be confused with the the ‘Frankly Independent’ site.
     
    And Yes, let’s continue scalping the Unitarist chiefs so union indians look in the direction of our expanding presence (wear the adornment and smile), raised profile by example (positively indignant in robustly knocking aside the negative to see the big picture) and drawn to by attractive persuasion (including taking the mike out of the Unitarists pish taking, and satire to the point that only Unitarists will recognise their view of us and the level headed being equal to will reject also).

  104. JLT says:

    Ah, but Stuart, you and I know that …but, Joe Punter out there doesn’t! A helluva lot of people out there still read the main newspapers. They won’t know any better.
    What I fear is, that if you pursue with a batch of cartoons, then you are giving ammo to the opposition. I prefer to play safe, cover all bases, and give them nothing.
    You said, ‘We’ve had this argument before. They’ll do that regardless of what we do. If we haven’t learned that by now, we’ve learned nothing.’
    But they had nothing really anyway. Now, we are giving them something…the nasty cybernat, and for real!
     
    As I said, it is just my opinion, but a few others have agreed with me also; not many, but enough. All other postings on here for the last year and a half, have literally, been universally agreed upon. I think this one is much more divisive. It made me smile, but rather wryly.
    In my own opinion, stick to the photo captions of the Bitter Together mob, some of them have been classics, and for that, I will always tip my hat to you!

  105. scottish_skier says:

    I’m personally offended by the subtle attack on Tennent’s Lager.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX9h558Tz1E
    😉

  106. ianbrotherhood says:

     
    @JLT-
     
    Fair do’s. 
     
    I can also see where you’re coming from, but we disagree.
     
    Perhaps the reason the cartoon has touched a nerve (and I’m not singling you out here) is because it represents certain people/mindsets which are part of Scotland. It’s an accident of birth that any one of us wasn’t incarnated likewise – those caricatures are based on real people who have had (and continue to have) a disproportionate and debilitating effect on greater society. When we criticise them we’re criticising aspects of the society we all helped to create, or tolerate.
     
    Orwell once wrote that all that was wrong with England was that the ‘wrong members of the family’ were in charge. The ‘Union Jocks’ have been in charge of the ‘Scottish’ family for far too long, and their time is now up.
     
    They don’t like it, and no wonder, but when a rotten act is forced by the crowd to leave the stage, they should expect the odd jobby among the jeers.
     
    Gardy-loo!
     
     

  107. CamronB says:

    ianbrotherhood says:
    28 May, 2013 at 8:28 pm

     
    If we’re going to get squeamish about using satire, why don’t we just stick to established fact and start publishing portraits and potted biographies of the umpteen-thousand of our fellow Scots who died of hypothermia in the thirty-four winters since we would’ve gone independent if told the truth by mandarins/politicians (many of whom have enjoyed long lives and ‘successful’ careers)? 
     
    Good point. What was the true cost of all those lies? Will those that knowingly told them, ever see justice? Perhaps we do need a truth an reconciliation process, after all.  

  108. Linda's back says:

    Good article by Citizen Smart who debunks Margaret Curran’s claims not to know anything about Denis Healey’s times as Chancellor of Exchequer.
     
    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/05/28/being-there/

  109. Luigi says:

    For those uncomfortable with these cartoons, it’s worth bearing in mind that the hardcore, stereotypical, Britnat no voters need to be isolated from others who could go either way. What better way than to alienate them as figures of fun. Who would want to associate themselves with such characters? The no camp are attempting exactly the same thing by portraying the hardcore yes as screaming bravehearts. It’s all about normalizing your own side and alienating the opposition. All part of the game.

  110. Ron says:

    @Luigi
    “The no camp are attempting exactly the same thing by portraying the hardcore yes as screaming bravehearts”
     
    To be fair to this cartoon, it isn’t an attempt to smear the whole NO camp or supporters by the standards of their worst elements. Which is how the YES side are routinely smeared. But I worry that if I were a unionist I might jump to the conclusion that this is trying the same thing.
     
    I’d just prefer if it were about ridiculing the statements individuals make, rather than laughing at stereotypes.

  111. The Man in the Jar says:

    I’ve been out all day and I am just catching up. I have to say that some of the comments here are beyond belief. How in 2013 can anyone be even mildly offended by this cartoon is totally beyond me. I can’t imagine for a millisecond that a cartoon like this could ever change someone’s voting intentions. Get over yourselves.

  112. Dee says:

    That bastard Campbell is on newsnight. Sneaky, slimey, scumbag, a true Traitor to our nation, I was going to say his nation but Scotland will never be his nation,  I wonder what shit he has been brewing up so he can run our country down.. 

  113. Adrian B says:

    @ Dee,
     
    Interesting interview with the writer – ex labour man coming around to the idea of Independence. He thinks it could work. Cautious – not rushing. Positive stuff.

  114. mealer says:

    I don’t think the cartoon is very helpful or unhelpful to our cause,but its quite well done.It made me laugh.More giggle than guffaw,really.Thats fine.

  115. Dee says:

    Yeah heard the interview Adrian,, that put Campbell in his place, another Indy convert, what I don’t get about all these pro union reporters from the Highlands and Islands is that it was the Brits who drove all of them from their homes in the 17/18 century.(highland clearances).so he is also a ("Tractor" - Ed) to his  ancestors. Him and Curran and the rest of them are all off the same block,, it is money and career first ,before the wellbeing of Scotland and its people.  We are better off without these half-breeds.!!!!

  116. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’d just prefer if it were about ridiculing the statements individuals make, rather than laughing at stereotypes.”

    What on Earth do you THINK it’s doing? Why do you think there are links in each of their lines? Why do you think their lines are about what they’re about?

  117. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Luigi: precisely. Curran and Galloway pose as decent, respectable normal people to spew this horrible poison. The purpose of the cartoon is to take off their masks and show people who they really are.

  118. Indion says:

     
    MajorBloodnock @ 8:11pm said: 
     
    The BBC is just laying the groundwork for Labour’s performance at FMQ, as has been the pattern this last year.  It’s not a conspiracy, it’s co-ordinated – and a fat lot of use it’s doing Labour and the BBC too.  However, they have no other strategy so let them carry on – names have no doubt been taken.  That is all.
     
    Succinctly put, especially for those outwith Scotland who are not aware of the UK state broadcaster’s role there in paving the way for the Unitarist opposition at Holyrood.  Lab’s cry of victimhood from a BBC Sco bias against them by bully bairn Davidson should be lampooned to high heaven for finger pointing misdirection. I’d like to see him up next in try again a doing on GMS! 
         
    That the Holyrood opposition seem to be totally unaware that had their masters in Whitehall-Westminster given a post-war damn, the SNP would not have become a minority, let alone majority Government in Scotland – and that afore the Unitarists’ neoliberal Big Bang Boom version of financially induced democratic and economic deficits and debts went Big Bust via Big Bail Out to depressingly bumping along the bottom road towards yet to materialise recovery after FIVE years.
     
    That simply shows how unpopular# the Whitehall-Westminster front for the City’s bankocracy has been, and adds yet more evidence over time to our cost of their culpably negligencent incompetence in neither preventing in the first place nor finding other than neoliberal medicine to cure their neoliberal illness.
     
    That’s not paramedical politics, it’s ambulance chasing with a privatised NHS in the van prescribing more of the same!
     
    Still, Pikes must be grateful there is no need for a Captain Mainwaring to be around to give up the names of the innocently naive, when the perpetrators are in full view wandering round and round the bowl to be flushed away in saving the union baby from the UK bathwater – eh, Major 😉 
     
    [ # ie not in our public interest – see my @ 5:39pm + 5:53pm correction] 

  119. velofello says:

    To Mealer and others: I’m not offended by this “cartoon” I’m just fizzing mad at the stupidity of offering ammo to the opposition. The “cartoon” is juvenile. It is not satire.
    What are the next subjects  of these cartoonists wit? Jews? Roman Catholics? Muslims? Gays? Humanists?
    After all they cannot all be pro-independence, just like some guy living in Larkhall surely will not vote for independence.
    Duped by black ops REv?

  120. turnip_ghost says:

    I have seen some pictures that have been put up that would be Satire. This was one of my particular favourites…It made me wonder about how I should vote…
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320728_10200605969984450_772445115_n.jpg
     
     

  121. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It is not satire.”

    It plainly is. It fits the definition extremely closely. You merely disagree over whether it’s good satire. It’s fine to disagree, but I think we get it by now.

  122. kininvie says:

    Cartoon does nothing for me, sorry.  Rather have seen the space used for one of Stu’s forensic dissections of some hapless media hack. Those DO make me laugh.

  123. Dal Riata says:

    @JLT and others
    Look, do you honestly think someone is going to come to this site and go, “That’s it. There’s no way I’m going to vote for independence now!” because of some perceived slight toward their character that they read into that cartoon? I mean, really? Do you really think that any hardline BritNats, of the sort stereotyped above, even visit this site except to leave troll comments? 
     
    Those stereotyped above will always be like that and nothing – nothing – will make them change. Hopefully, Darwinism will work over the generations to eventually make them an extinct species in Scotland. Meanwhile, they’re there to be ridiculed at every opportunity.
     
    And also, be assured that the vast majority of the ‘undecided’ who should visit this site will have a giggle at that cartoon, as they too will be well aware of those certain types of Scottish [sic] individuals stereotyped above.
     
    And finally.The cartoon itself is mild compared to some that have been printed in the mainstream press. And you aint seen nothing yet: you’ll have plenty of opportunities to get outraged with the Unionist’s let’s-take-the-piss-out-of-the-Jocks cartoons that will be on show the nearer we get to the referendum.

  124. Marcia says:

    Dal Riata
     
    Agree with your comment although  I can see the viewpoint of some above. Relax it is only a good bit of satire.

  125. Dal Riata says:

    @Marcia
    Oh, I’m fine and relaxed about the satire. But let me just address someone here:
     
    @velofello at 12.01 am
    Christ almighty, get a grip of yourself! That’s about the most hysterical post I’ve read at WoS, and that takes some doing. If you keep on like that, you’ll end up in the “zany comedy relief” section! Methinks a lie down in a darkened room for a while will do you some good.

  126. Taranaich says:

    I’m surprised at all the comments worrying about this cartoon being used as ammunition from the opposition, that it could damage the Yes campaign.  You know what? I actually don’t think this cartoon is remotely offensive enough to do either of those things.
     
    Great satire, satire that actually makes an impact, that cuts through the spin into truth, is often merciless, ruthless, and utterly, utterly brutal. Witness this sketch from “Spitting Image”: it may invoke Godwin’s law, but it’s astoundingly prophetic:
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T3OwB6mARI
     
    It isn’t exactly funny, but by God does it hit a nerve, and it just gains more power over the years.
     
    This is the kind of satire we need in Scotland. Parodies like this cartoon are fine – as Mel Brooks said, sometimes the greatest way to disempower something is to laugh at it – but in comparison to the poisonous, pernicious stuff the Unionists come up with, it’s practically tame.
     
    I say we pull no punches and go for broke. Here’s an example. Imagine a cartoon depicting Ian Duncan Smith personally throwing disabled people off the White Cliffs of Dover (with a smile on his face, saying “we’re just helping you get out of the benefits trap!”), with stormtroopers bearing ATOS logos holding guns to their heads. It’s shocking, it’s crude, but it has a point – that since Smith’s “welfare” reforms, there have been several incidents of disabled people dying or even committing suicide because their life-saving benefits were stopped. People seeing such a horrific image will immediately think “what on earth did Ian Duncan Smith do to prompt such a cartoon?” And when they dig deeper, they find out about the Occupancy Tax, Smith’s profound hypocrisy, and the number of disabled people made homeless, jobless, gravely ill, or even dead since April of this year. Calling IDS a murderer seems like libel or slander to actual murderers – at least they do the dirty work themselves.
     
    I agree that in actual discourse, courtesy and sobriety is essential, and any unfounded accusations should always be challenged and debunked. But cartoons and satire are inherently over-the-top, brash and exaggerated in order to highlight the audacity of reality. So why not go all the way? Why not depict extreme Unionists/British Nationalists in the most vile, hideous light possible – it’s satire. That’s the point. Nationalists have already suffered this, which has caused people to look deeper and – hopefully – realise the “Tartan Tories/King Eck/UKIP North” memes are a bunch of mince.  But what will they find when a cartoon depicting British Nationalists as violent, murderous thugs prompts them to investigate?
     
    That’s the essential difference: anyone doing even a modicum of research into the Susan Calman nonsense after seeing the Scotsman cartoon will only find rumour, hearsay and precious little evidence. But if someone makes a cartoon depicting British Nationalists going on a march and engaging in violence and hate speech – well, you won’t have to look hard to find it.
     
    After all, we don’t have anything to be afraid of: the Arch-Unionists, on the other hand…

  127. Chic McGregor says:

     
    Yesitis says:
    28 May, 2013 at 12:38 pm

    “I love me some proud Scots from North Britain.QA wee while back I remember one Tory twitter proud Scot ask another Tory twitter proud Scot “what will they do when we vote No?”, the reply was an assured “they`ll probably crawl back under their stones”, or something like that. Here`s some proud Scots and some typical North Britnat proud Scots twitter speak. I love it, they`re almost cuddly.https://twitter.com/KeithRSteele/status/338988555156213760 Remember, the Saltire is not just for Christmas.”
     
     
    Well spotted.  A deliciously unintentional piece of satire.
     
    First we have the classic false premise, that the contra-accusations that Scotland would be an Albanian style socialist republic or it would be an extreme right wing fascist state are claims made by pro Indy supporters.
    This is of course arrant nonsense, no Indy supporter ever makes either claim, it is only the unionists who do this – incessantly.  (See the BUH).
     
    Then we have classic projection, with the claim that no detail on an independent Scotland is given by the Scottish government for political reasons when in fact detail and clear answers are provided from it, but is avoided by them and their lackies in the media like the plague because they know that a No vote will not survive detailed scrutiny by rational undecideds.
     
    The general air is one of trying to convince themselves rather than others, or to reinforce the delusions they already have.

     

  128. JLT says:

    Dal Riata / Rev / Others
    Overall, I think in the last couple of weeks, I have seen 3 posts that actually gave me pause.
    1. This one (obviously)
    2 & 3. The Armageddon Files 1 & 2 (I think these 2 posts could easily upset Rangers fans as it could be misconstrued by them, as a pop, at them! – after all, both posts had nothing to do with politics).
    All I ask, is to be wary of what you are doing. I hope you get it right, and thus prove me wrong, that’s all. If you start to get posts saying ‘That’s it, I’m not coming back here’, then I would back off immediately, and review the tactic.
    Overall, I still prefer the ‘slowly, slowly, catchee monkey’ tactic.

  129. Seasick Dave says:

    Look, a squirrel.

  130. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The Armageddon Files 1 & 2 (I think these 2 posts could easily upset Rangers fans as it could be misconstrued by them, as a pop, at them!”

    Only if they were morons, and there’s no point worrying about being misunderstood by morons, because by definition morons are capable of misunderstanding anything. The only people criticised in those articles were the Scottish football authorities, anyone interpreting them as an attack on Rangers clearly can’t read, and it’s futile to write for the benefit of people who can’t read.

    “both posts had nothing to do with politics”

    Yes they did.

    I’m only one man. I don’t have time to teach people English as well as research facts and make arguments. I’d really rather not have idiots reading, because they’re time-consuming. So the angry man who said he was off because those pieces attacked Rangers, I’m glad he’s gone.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not putting you in that category. But I’m done with this conversation now.

  131. pa_broon74 says:

    I only have two things to add, for what they’re worth…
     
    Firstly, although I gave money to the recent campaign here, I don’t own or expect to be able to have any editorial control over what the Rev publishes – it doesn’t work that way. I don’t bother with the football stuff (for example) because I’m content with having only a passing understanding of it.
     
    Secondly, some folks seem to be quite skittish about the cartoon above – I wonder if this is an example of the more general skittishness that has held Scottish Independence back in the past? I’m not blaming the people who’ve posted here at all, merely suggesting that it is indicative of a common mindset among people living in Scotland.
     
    It stands to reason that since most people reading here already support indy then they’re already pretty robust when it come to the hurly burly – perhaps the small number of folk who are nervous of this content represent (although not actually, if you see what I mean) those voters who are more wary of the idea of an independent country because they are naturally cautious –  and in some regards – overly so.
     
    Beyond that, I think people are over-analysing the effect this cartoon might have. I don’t think for a minute it would be the definitive factor in how anyone votes 18 months from now – it would be very odd indeed if it was.

  132. Doug Daniel says:

    velofello – “What are the next subjects  of these cartoonists wit? Jews? Roman Catholics? Muslims? Gays? Humanists?”
     
    Sorry, but that is simply ridiculous and makes me suspect the cartoon has simply gone over your head. If you don’t like the cartoon, then that’s fine – after all, not even Limmy is loved by everyone, and he’s the greatest comedy genius of this era. But that statement is completely uncalled for. It also completely misses the point of the characters – they’re two extreme examples of die-hard unionism, and the idea of the Union Jocks was to take the sort of arguments we hear from unionists all the time and use the caricatures to highlight their absurdity (which, incidentally, is pretty much the whole premise of satire).
     
    It’d be interesting to know what exactly it is about the cartoon that some people think is so damaging. Is it one character in particular? Is it what they’re saying? Or is it simply this bizarre “we must not say anything that might upset Rangers fans” attitude that seems to plague the comments of every single article Stu does that even SUGGESTS that there might be a disproportionate amount of support for the union amongst the terraces in Ibrox?

  133. Atypical_Scot says:

    Doug Daniel,
     
    May be if Rangers had shown a little national socialism, they may not have gone under? 

  134. Ron says:

    To be clear – it’s a cartoon, it’s not offensive to me, I’m just uneasy about stereotypes. Maybe just me, and maybe I’m wrong.
     
    @Rev
    Stu, I absolutely realise by linking to the actual words you are explicitly identifying WHO the two of you are satirising, and I’m absolutely behind the purpose of the cartoon. But the image – not the text below it – isn’t specific. In fact you yourself have used it in a twitpic I noticed, of course without the text and explanations as they wouldn’t fit. You are then left with an image of two stereotypes, and an association with Better Together.
     
    It’s not offensive, but without knowing the specific targets – the individuals – it could be seen as lazy stereotyping. I know what you are trying to achieve and I agree with it, as I said right at the beginning it’s twofold – those who might wish to misinterpret it, and those who will see themselves rightly or wrongly as a target of the image.
     
    Will this cartoon make any difference to one single vote? Probabaly not. Doesn’t stop me wincing slightly when I see it though. Especially without the funny text and links (which casual surfers won’t read anyway)
     
    @Taranaich “Great satire, satire that actually makes an impact, that cuts through the spin into truth, is often merciless, ruthless, and utterly, utterly brutal. Witness this sketch from “Spitting Image””
    Absolutely Taranaich. But the Spitting Image sketch is about the individuals in Maggie’s cabinet and an an attack on their purpose.
     
     
    Tbh, the cartoon is likely less controversial than this minor disagreement within the comments, but hey, what’s the internet for if not voicing opinions.

  135. Ron says:

    @Doug Daniel
    I think velofello is overstating it somewhat. But imagine a cartoon posted on Better Together’s page with two characters. On the left is a stereotype of a bigotted anti-gay ranting loon, the links and bio below quoting Gordon Wilson’s views on marriage and homosexuality. On the right is a McGlashan-type stereotype anti-English “cybernat” loon, with links to (one of the very few) random pro-indy idiots on the internet. Neither are drawn as individuals, but as stereotypes.
     
    Now, the text and bios may well be specific and identify the individuals, and mock those individuals, and WE, the sensible pro indy supporter, might actually agree with their mocking. But would we wonder if our whole campaign were being tarred with the same brush.
     
    Even I am overstating it, never mind velofello. For me it’s just an unease with the type of cartoon, I completely agree with the purpose.
     
    And this really was my last comment on this. (for the 3rd time I think!)

  136. Jiggsbro says:

    the links and bio below quoting Gordon Wilson’s views on marriage and homosexuality…Neither are drawn as individuals, but as stereotypes
     
    If you quote an individual, then you’ve caricatured an individual not a stereotype.

  137. a supporter says:

    LT says: 29 May, 2013 at 7:23 am
    “slowly, slowly, catchee monkey”
     
    Unfortunately the monkey is never caught with that tactic. Frankly I’m fed up with the witterings of you and the others who have been cringing all day yesterday and today about the cartoon. Maybe you should go away to another site which more suits your ‘nice’ but weak form of Independence support.

  138. Ron says:

    @a supporter
     
    Aye right, “‘nice’ but weak form of Independence support”? and then seek to chase away those who don’t agree with you? Classy. I had a feeling someone had used “wetnat” in this thread but can’t seem to see it now, hopefully I was mistaken, but comments such as yours, and “wetnats”, are just attempts to insult and marginalise. Fine, just don’t ever complain about “cybernats” being used by Foulkes et al for the exact same thing. Without being a hypocrite.

  139. jake says:

    I initially thought that as a piece of political satire the cartoon was mildly amusing but didn’t really illuminate or provide much in the way of penetrating insight. I’d have scored it a mid-ranking 5/10 or there-abouts.
    Given the various comments above however…..it was clearly much more effective at a provoking a reaction than I had thought it would have. On that basis I’m revising my score upwards to a 7.5.
    The Big Jock of my aquantaince actually resides in Stonehouse, while the Sir Jock’s incident happenened not in Rhodesia but ******. In all other respects their biographies are pretty accurate.

  140. Shinty says:

    Do you know the funniest bit about this cartoon for me is in reality the ‘Sir Jocks’ have nothing but contempt for the ‘Big Jocks’ but will use them for their own purpose.
     
    One is too ignorant to notice, the other too arrogant to care.

  141. Doug Daniel says:

    Ron – I think the wetnat reference you’re thinking of was a suggestion someone made for a third character!

  142. a supporter says:

    Ron says:
    “comments such as yours, and “wetnats”, are just attempts to insult and marginalise”

    Mine wasn’t. It was just a complaint that I’m fed up listening to the ridiculous bleating by the ‘nice’ wing of the YES Campaign about an innocuous cartoon. So with apologies to Carl von Clausewitz I quote:
     
    Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of politics. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: Politics is such a dirty business that mistakes that come from kindness are the very worst. 
     
    And I’m a proud CyberNat.

  143. Taranaich says:

    @Ron: true, but of course satire can often be used to lampoon broad sections of society in the form of individuals. Witness Al Murray’s magnificent Pub Landlord, truly the icon of that certain breed of bull-headed, bigoted, parochial individuals, or Alf Garnett.
     
    On the left is a stereotype of a bigotted anti-gay ranting loon, the links and bio below quoting Gordon Wilson’s views on marriage and homosexuality. On the right is a McGlashan-type stereotype anti-English “cybernat” loon, with links to (one of the very few) random pro-indy idiots on the internet. Neither are drawn as individuals, but as stereotypes.
     
    The crucial difference is that it’s much, much easier to find many examples of Unionist idiocy, violence and threats than it is to find the apparent vast swathes of anti-English cybernats. Stereotypes are founded on frequency, and the stereotype of the violent Unionist bigot is (regrettably) much more commonly seen than the anti-English Cybernat.
     
    That said, I agree in general. Much better to directly target people who are actively engaged in the debate on a public level, and to man the cannons and fire all broadsides at them instead of a more vague foe. Perhaps take a well known example of both types of Unionist Jock and caricature them into their respective forms?

  144. Ron says:

    @Taranaich
    “Perhaps take a well known example of both types of Unionist Jock and caricature them into their respective forms?”
    Exactly, my point all along 😉

  145. Ron says:

    @Doug Daniel
    Fair do’s, but my point still holds I think, any of us can have differences in opinion (and this one is minor despite the number of comments) but they shouldnt result in some (not you) telling others to do one.



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