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Wings Over Scotland


If you’re joining us late

Posted on November 26, 2013 by

If you were at work when everything was happening this morning and this afternoon, here’s a one-stop catch-up guide to all the interesting media of the day.

Full white paper launch event (video)

Statement and questions in Scottish Parliament (video)

Alistair Darling’s instant response on BBC News (video)

Alistair Carmichael pretends he’s read 170,000 words in three hours

Soundbites from the great and good (BBC)

Sensible analysis in Spectator

Less sensible rant in New Statesman

Uncomprehending, angry Telegraph columnist

Bizarre assessment from Matt Qvortrup (The Scotsman)

A touch of satire from Labour council leader Andrew Burns (Twitter)

“The big unanswerable questions, however, remain unanswered.” (Herald)

To be honest, that’s about all we’ve found so far that’s worth bothering with. If you’ve got anything to add to the list, do let us know in the comments and we’ll edit it in.

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    73 to “If you’re joining us late”

    1. Lisl says:

      Don’t forget, we may get less back from the Treasury than we put in but we have far more than our fair share of food banks. 42 out of the 400 run by the Trussell Trust. 🙁

    2. Iain Gray asks how an oil fund is funded (YouTube, new window)

      I’ve just registered for my white paper. My postie lives down here now but he was brought up voting SLAB so I’m sure he’ll appreciate the extra weight in his bag.

    3. sneddon says:

      Ian Grey what a balloon and to think he was a headmaster! Sour faced wee crazed garden fnome of a man IMHO

    4. lumilumi says:

      I’ve posted some Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian and Estonian press responses (with headline translations, resumes) in the Scotland’s Future thread.

    5. Taranaich says:

      Wow. Way to destroy my soul, dude.

    6. StevieTV says:

      Alistair Darling is a remarkable politician. Some might say he is capable of impossible feats he is so good at his job. Today for instance he managed to do all the TV and radio interviews this morning, read the entire 670 page report and then still find the time to write this article trashing the White Paper and have it online less than four hours after the White Paper came out… 
      http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/11/the-snps-plan-for-independence-beggars-belief/

    7. K1 says:

      Thank you, thank you, thank you Rev!  Very much appreciated…:-)

    8. Fab001 says:

      Anyone catch James Cook’s report on the BBC Six O’clock News, he was in Dundee gauging people’s opinions on the future of Scotland. Surprise, surprise he seemed completely unable to find a single supporter of independence in an SNP city! Everyone interviewed was in favour of keeping the Union, including some English tourists he managed to find. He also made the leading statement, “So will people vote with their heart or head?”.  This is an accusation that the No campaign make, that voting for independence is more emotional than rational.

    9. scottish_skier says:

      The big unanswerable questions, however, remain unanswered.
      M. Gardham, Herald.
       
      LOL. 

    10. Don’t forget the business livestream in 5 mins.
       
      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive

    11. lumilumi says:

      @ cynicalHighlander
       
      Is there somewhere you can watch it without being sent to Facebook? (I don’t do FB.)

      Sorry, I think I found the relevan link now. Sorry for being a bit grumpy about FB 😀

    12. Training Day says:

      @Fab001

      Cook is the BBC stooge who asked the IFS rep last week ‘is independence a daft idea?’. Amazingly, he didn’t ask ‘is the Union a daft idea? following publication of the SG economic levers report the next day. In fairness, that was probably because the ‘national’ BBC news forgot to report the publication of the SG paper.

      And not a single soul in Dundee supports independence. They must all be ‘I voted SNP but don’t support indpendence’ types we keep hearing about.

    13. scottish_skier says:

      The document is a decent essay, but it does not answer the exam question, why should Scotland become independent? The answer to that question is an emotional one…
      Dr Matt Qvortrup
       
      That’s what has the unionists worried. Very worried. The article is a little odd, but on this point he’s right to a large extent.
       
      For many, even by polling day, the head will still be confused and the heart will therefore rule.

    14. Seanair says:

      Didn’t know about the Overton Window (Spectator)but it sounds like we are well on the way,
      as described.
      My thumb has been well used tonight pressing the “mute button” as soon as Alister Darlingmichael appears on the screen. Usual BBC mince but thought STV were a bit fairer, especially the quine fae Aiburdeen.

    15. sneddon says:

      Is it me but can’t seem to find liveastream via the link above I only get to page advertising what they do but not the actual stream ? Help appreciated

    16. Wayne says:

      It will be interesting tomorrow to compare some of the international and presumably less partisan news coverage with the inevitable guff from the UK media.  It might make for quite a good article i’d imagine…

    17. JasonF says:

      For many, even by polling day, the head will still be confused and the heart will therefore rule.
       
      Which is a good reason for people not to be harsh on those who are saying No at the moment for seemingly emotional reasons. 

    18. @lumilumi 
       
      I don’t do FB either and that link I posted appears dead to me also, oh well.

    19. Murray McCallum says:

      Bloomberg – “A currency union “remains highly unlikely,” Cameron’s spokesman, Jean-Christophe Gray, told reporters in London”
       
      Highly unlikely, Scotland can’t guarantee, not up to Alex Salmond, etc …
       
      Why don’t the UK government simply provide crystal clarity and say no £Sterling Zone under any circumstances? The longer they milk this line of argument the more they weaken any point they have got.

    20. Seoras says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25107108
       
      Nick Robinson “birth of a brand new nation – or, at least, the first scan which reveals what the UK’s offspring might look like”
      And there was me thinking that Scotland has been a country since around the 9th century

    21. kendomacaroonbar says:

      I heard on the evening news that the UK government dont plan on changing the union flag should Scotland become independence.
       
      Question :   Have they asked the Scottish Government for approval ?

    22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Don’t forget the business livestream in 5 mins.”

      A genius plan of theirs to do that during the Celtic game…

    23. Could of been poker night, priorities!

    24. kendomacaroonbar says:

      The livestream thingee didn’t last very long, by the time I registered and logged in, the damn thing was over.. what happened ?

    25. Lou Nisbet says:

      I’ve just been here
      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scottish-secretary-comments-on-independence-white-paper
      and the idiots lay out their incompetency for all to see.  Can you spot the mistake? It may be gone shortly as I asked them about it. The spelling of the word ‘desribe’ says it all. Too dumb too wee and too stupid to use a spell checker.

    26. Jim says:

      I’m not bothered if the rUK continues to use the current Union flag after independence, although the skull and crossbones might be more appropriate (Roger being too jolly to attach to them!).
      Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and many more have the current Union flag incorporated into their respective national flag!

    27. Morag says:

      Who cares.  We can point and laugh.

    28. Paula Rose says:

      I’ve just been here but it seems not to exist.
      http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/white-paper-live-blog

    29. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Jim
       
      Aye, they must be using the same international law that Carmichael refers to

    30. Richard Taylor says:

      What I find interesting – reading many comments to the articles you’ve linked to, Rev, and many others over the last few years, is that many people in the rest of the UK don’t know about/had no interest in/weren’t told about it. The comments are often angry, as if people feel betrayed. Others assume that it’s “all the ego of one man”, or “a passing fad”. It’s as if it’s the first time they’ve heard of a desire for Scottish Independence, a party (more than one party!) dedicated to it, of a political process.

      And they may be right! Look at the BBC website. The first 6 (Big Headline) stories aren’t about Scottish independence. The white paper is 8th in a list of “other stories”. That is, the Scottish Government setting out it’s case for independence with less than a year to go before the possible split-up of the UK.

      Imagine any other country – Czechoslovakia, Sudan, Yugoslavia – on the cusp of splitting into two or more entities. The news would be the number 1 news item all year. Nobody would report on anything else. 

      The Daily Mail Home page has no mention of the vote to split the UK in a year’s time. On it’s UK home page it’s a small story about 6 down the list – I assume on other days Scottish independence doesn’t make the home page.

      It is no.1 lead news item on the Daily Telegraph. Well done them!

      The Financial Times doesn’t have it on its front page, but the top 10 ‘most popular’ stories in a box on the side show it at no. 2 & 4.
      And that’s one of the most important news stories in the run-up to the end of the UK.

    31. Richard Taylor says:

      The Sun doesn’t mention it at all on it’s home page

    32. HandandShrimp says:

      What the rUK call themselves and what flag they use is of no concern. We have a name that is true and flag that is ours. Darling is becoming a little strange. I don’t recall him ever being this grumpy even when he was watching the financial system go down the pan.

    33. @Lou Nisbet
       
      I left a comment on ‘is there anything wrong with this page’
       
      Speedreader contender.

    34. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      You don’t have to wade your way through “Scotland’s Future”.
      “Independence for Dummies” is available from today.
      Looks like Alistair Darling is beginning to “consider other options”.
      http://www.yesbraveheart.net
      (Satire warning)

    35. HandandShrimp says:

      The Sun doesn’t mention it at all on it’s home page
       
      The Sun isn’t really catering for people who read 650 page White Papers though….even the page 3 is a bit wordy.

    36. Fab001 says:

      Training Day says:
      Cook is the BBC stooge who asked the IFS rep last week ‘is independence a daft idea?’.
      He could have asked “Do you think independence is a daft idea?” but as we have learned from the BBC the IFS know absolutely everything, even being able to see 50 years into the future, so anything they say is the definitive answer.

    37. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @H&S,  my original post about the flag was tongue in cheek. The irony of unionists questioning the authority of every action proposed by the SNP.

    38. Ian Sanderson says:

      The considered response to most of the pro-Union comment is well elucidated already…
       

    39. Kirriereoch says:

      The Porridge has a good report on Better Together´s response to the White Paper response. I think they have an exclusive here.
       
      “Better Together have today announced the launch of their black paper in response to the Scottish Government.The publication is described by campaign leader Alistair Darling as “a blackprint for Scotland’s impending future in the United Kingdom”.”
       
      The oil-coloured paper details exactly how Scotland and its population will enter serfdom under London rule and describes an in-depth framework for the transfer of ownership of the North Sea to England in 2016.
       
      “Also unveiled was a “lunch money tax”, wherein Westminster MPs will now have their meal expenses reimbursed through an intense bullying campaign, where they steal money directly from the pockets of Holyrood MSPs.”
       
      “… though he (Alex Salmond) did concede Better Together’s publication looked “way cooler”.
       
      http://theporridge.co.uk/post/68060219177/better-together-publish-black-paper

    40. kininvie says:

      @ Richard Taylor
       
      I think the people south of the border are about as ill-served by their media as we are. I think the most dangerous assumption that the media are making for them is that it’s all about a minor fuss in a distant country about something that won’t happen, and even if it does, nothing much will change….
       
      But I think it will have a seismic effect on the rUK; I don’t see northern England sitting quietly and accepting the status quo. I expect a lot of people to start questioning what it was that was so bad about the Union that Scotland wanted to leave. And once they start looking around them, they may notice a few things that need to be changed!  But they are not being prepared for the awakening – just fed more and more pap.

    41. Marcia says:

      Tonight I was thinking of my friends over the past 50 year who campaigned for Home Rule/Independence but are no longer with us.  A raise of the glass for their work over the years to get us were we are.

    42. JasonF says:

      Campaigners (including online commenters) should try to enjoy the whole period up the the referendum. 
       
       
       
      This is what people wanted: the chance to have this debate. It was never going to be easy, but for the No side it will be impossible to enjoy themselves, as they have something to lose, while for Yes it’s a case of what can be gained (and things have moved considerably already) – keeping that in mind is probably a good idea.
       
       
       
      The attitude of campaigners will make a big difference to unsure voters. Just look at Salmond and Sturgeon – they seem very happy; the same can’t be said for Darling and Lamont, and that’s not going to be very appealing to voters.

    43. Ken Mac says:

      Just read the Telegraph column and as many comments as I could stomach. These people are raving fucking nutters. The sooner we get shot of them the better.

    44. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      JasonF says:
      26 November, 2013 at 9:31 pm
      Campaigners (including online commenters) should try to enjoy the whole period up the the referendum.
       
      Every day between now and 18th September 2014 will be an “Independence Day”. All these Independence Days are there to be enjoyed.
      Big party on 19th September.
      Then the real fun begins.

    45. Jamie Arriere says:

      A long day, a good day. the White Paper ordered and can’t wait to join the discussion on here. A few walk-outs of the room with the air turning blue as I sat through most of the blustering unionists bumping their gums, and the poor laddie in Glasgow who thought Robert the Bruce lost! – thank god for the comic relief of Iain Gray.
       
      A day to remember.

    46. annie says:

      Has anyone noticed how the IFS has now become the Highly Respected IFS when being quotedby newsreaders this past week.

    47. lumilumi says:

      @ kininvie 9.17pm
       
      I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
       
      The rUK are almost as let down by the press as Scots are. They have no idea what their government is up to, what is happening to their country, because all the news are some political/financial/media elite love-ins.
       
      Our friends south of the border have no idea what is really happening in Scotland because there is no in-depth analysis, they have no idea what Scottish independence would mean for them, especially if their government is daft enough to refuse the Sterling zone with an independent Scotland.
       
      I’m no economist but even I know that more than doubling your balance of payment deficit overnight is very bad news for a currency. The people in rUK are not being told this. It’s all Scottish subsidy junkies, London this, Braveheart, London that.
       
      There will be a rude awakening on 19 September 2014, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth by the UK media, and the stunned public.
       
      But Scottish independence can also become a wake-up call for the ordinary people in rUK to demand their country back from the elite.

    48. lumilumi says:

      @ scaredy cat 9.39pm
       
      Thanks!
      I think I’ve missed most of the event, it’s now Q&A, but better late than never!

    49. The Rough Bounds says:

      I had sort of hoped in my heart of hearts that upon the publication of this White Paper we may have just shown that the independence movement has integrity and is serious in its politics.

      I had sort of hoped that ‘Better Together’ people like Darling, broadcasters like the BBC, and political commentators in the press etc would for once have just sat back for a minute and said something like, ‘Well it’s here at last, so we’ll have a good look at it and see what they have put on offer to the Scottish people’.
       
      But no; instead we just got the usual infantile bilge from the unionists and the media with their spin, half truths and downright lies. Not a shred of decency among any of them. Not a single shred.
       
      Well fuck them. I shall now be making even more effort to ensure that my country regains its ancient freedom. £50 on its way to Yes for Scotland.

    50. kininvie says:

      @lumilumi
       
      One or two are beginning to wake up – but only among the Guardian readers. Have a look at this:
       
      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/26/stop-lecturing-scots-freedom-not-wealth

    51. HandandShrimp says:

      The White Paper really has  brought out the swivelled of eye today. The BBC HYS had some beauts, even the Guardian seems to have a pile of people I have never seen posting before. Thousands of comments. The little click counters must be working overtime. The really whack job papers like the Telegraph and Scotsman tend to attract the more “outraged” poster and consequently it becomes a rabid troll fest pretty quickly.
       
      Amazing number of posters playing Better Together Bingo. 

    52. ronnie anderson says:

      Annie, the IFS started of being highly respected they are now the very highly respected IFS, what a difference a week makes they still produse shite

    53. scaredy cat says:

      lumilumi
      I missed most of it too. Apparently their internet connection failed during the first half.
      They are going to post the whole thing on youtube soon though. I’ll post a link if no-one else does it first.
       

    54. Greannach says:

      With all the time the Earl of Arboretum is having to spend in the provinces plugging the No Better Together UKOK line, I hope he isn’t missing out on any flipping opportunities.

    55. Murray McCallum says:

      Alistair Carmichael could improve the quality of the independence debate by simply removing himself from it.

    56. wee jamie says:

      Sorry if i’m a bit OT rev , but has nobody else noticed the total absence of any comment from the U.K government ? Maybe I missed the big statement from the prime minister on this , I’ve only saw the T.V since about 7 pm tonight, and all I see are darling & co spouting their usual shite.  Surely the pm , or his poodle clegg have some opinion ? or am I expecting too much as a member of the electorate ?

    57. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      No, I wondered about that too. It’s an odd quirk, as is the media’s silence on it. Although some papers did recently report that Cameron would be staying out of it.

    58. faolie says:

      Just find it staggering the lack of interest / comment / reporting of the threat to the Union south of the border. It’s just weird. The government, having shoved the two Alistairs to the fore, are busy getting on with governing and, with Labour, are scheming how to win the 2015 GE, while the general populace are getting fed with a few stories now and then of how the mad jocks are having some sort of referendum.
       
      Come next August they’re going to realise that their UK is going to be somewhat reduced and by then there won’t be a damn thing they can do about it. 

    59. sionnach says:

      @wee jamie (11.34pm) and RevStu (11.46pm)
      Doesn’t this come back to Cameron’s refusal to debate independence with AS? He said at the time it was a matter for discussion within Scotland, and that was why he wouldn’t take part. Pretty stupid of him, really, given the huge effect Scottish independence will undoubtedly have on the rUK.

    60. Indion says:

       
      Rev Stu,
      As ever, but especially at this time of our lives, thank you for the summary of today’s [as it was an hour plus ago when i checked in to a London apartment for an early start to Kernow in the morning] reactions to the main event.
      Congratulations too to the YES volunteers who were handing out the latest YES newspaper to passengers joining trains at Waverley; several copies were evident on the Kings Cross train – as were the Better Together version – so i got about a bit, encouraging carriers to read both and imagine YES Northumbria, Cumbria, Durham & Tees Valley / Cleveland, Yorkshire, Lancashire et seq down to the Humber > Mersey estuaries engaged in optimal autonomy from bottom-up instead of Wastemidden’s bankcrupt & corrupt top-down, then asked them to imagine the kind of Union they’d wish to negotiate before we vote YES.
      Not a soul wished to pass me their copies rather than take them home to read after that. (i had got on at York, so didn’t have any.)
      Meanwhile the yUK’s stupid economy bumps along the bottomed-out of overconfident forecasts within the margins of error, with take-home inflation looking more like devaluation given the effect it has on little to no savings as folk spend as little as possible to wind down their debts. 
      We have not yet begun to question NO yet. And by their lies in response shall all people know them for the self-servative incompetents they are.
      Keep up the disengenuos, dissembling pretense Darling, and your goose too will be cooked with yUK’s by Christmas.
       

    61. A2 says:

      “silence on it. Although some papers did recently report that Cameron would be staying out of it.”

      Or maybe he’s taken your advice and decided to actually read the thing before commenting on it. You can’t after all criticise everyone else for commenting on it before they have read it and also criticise Cameron for not doing so.
       

    62. It was a spokesman for the College of Arms who said the Union flag would stay the same after Independence, due to the influence that Scotland has already had on the other countries of the Union. So it’s an historical reference, not unusual in national flags.

    63. joe kane says:

      I find the news media coverage given to Alistair Darling a bit incomprehensible. He’s just an MP, nothing more. If it was good enough to give him so much air-time then why wasn’t his equal counter-part in the YES campaign, Dennis Canavan given the same amount of exposure on the launch of the Scottish Government White Paper on independence?

      Where is the Prime Minister of the UK of GB and NI? That the elected head of the UK government has now opted to stay out of the public debate on the future existence of his own state is quite a dereliction of duty. Besides the fact he promised he would fight for the union to the bitter end. Yet the news media doesn’t seem too bothered about holding him to account for his actions and is accepting his complete silence at face value, no questions asked.

      I know yesterday was a day for the SNP Scottish Government, but the framing of the debate and who gets to say what seems to be getting distorted by our beloved foreign-owned news media in favour of the unionist agenda. The YES campaign, probably the biggest grassroots political campaign in Scottish history, was all but effaced from yesterday’s coverage as far as I could make out along with the Westminster Government. 

      Reference –
      The spokesman who won’t speak
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-spokesman-who-wont-speak/ 

    64. Hewitt83 says:

      Still taking a while to digest all that from yesterday and initially I was pleased with the media coverage, it seemed fair to both sides.
       
      Until I watched STV’s Scotland Tonight programme. That was a massive blow for our campaign, make no mistake. We know now where the No campaign are going to focus all of their efforts – the currency issue. And trust me, this is a massive issue and where a lot of votes will be lost and won.
       
      I know we can and will retain the pound. But the undecideds will need a lot more convincing on this.
       
      It’s all the No side have left, but it’s all they need to win.
       
      I hope Nicola knocks it out of park tonight.

    65. Iain says:

      To sneddon (post 3rd from top): no, no – Iain Gray was never a headteacher or close to being one. He only taught for a couple of years.

    66. joe kane says:

      The independence referendum public debate pairing system advocated by Logic’s Rock blog –
      Cameron: “I’ll run away with every fibre of my being”
      http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/cameron-ill-run-away-with-every-fibre.html

    67. joe kane says:

      I noticed Ian Taylor couldn’t resist making a Braveheart reference during his summing up (alongside ex-President of Oxford Uni Conservative Association Nick Robinson) at the end of BBC Scotland’s ‘Reporting Scotland’ hour long special last night (Tues 6.30-7.30 pm).

    68. chalks says:

      @Hewitt83
      It’s fairly simple, push Carmichael on it, get him angry and he WILL say something stupid.  Thus ensuring his sack and also forcing the UK gov into making a statement confirming they would entertain the thought of entering into a currency union.
      There is no pressure on Yes anymore, they have set out their stall, it is up to the No campaign to answer questions now.
      The debate has changed.

    69. A2 says:

      currency… simple… I go to the shop with a pound, if the shopkeeper choses to accept my pound in exchange for goods, end of argument.

      BoE/Fiscal levers etc. that’s just extraneous stuff. 

    70. Greannach says:

      Good coverage and analysis in Suedeutsche Zeitung and fair article in Die Zeit, despite big domestic coalition news in Germany.

    71. Greannach says:

      A number of articles in the French paper Le Figaro – quite interesting.



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