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Wings Over Scotland


Brick walls and open doors

Posted on November 15, 2015 by

The task facing the Scottish independence movement is to change the minds of just 6% of Scots. That’s all it would take to turn September 2014’s defeat into a victory if and when another referendum comes around, and when you put it like that it doesn’t sound like an impossible job.

brickdoor

The question for Yes supporters is where to focus their energies. A proportion of people who live in Scotland will never vote for independence no matter what, for a variety of reasons we don’t need to go into here. But we’ve always wondered exactly how big that proportion was, so in our latest Panelbase poll we just asked straight out.

indyrefprinciples

The number of voters in the middle category was interesting:

Conservative voters: 20%
Labour voters: 34%
Lib Dem voters: 51%
SNP voters: 15%

(Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP voters say they’d never vote for independence.)

In terms of absolute numbers rather than percentages, Labour and SNP voters tied with the most, with Tories and Lib Dems both trailing a considerable distance behind. Women were significantly more staunchly opposed – 35% say “never!” (compared to just 25% of men), with 29% willing to be persuaded (vs 27% of men).

Readers probably won’t be surprised to hear that older voters are even less fertile ground, with 37% of the over-55s firmly in the “no way!” camp, compared to only 25% of 16-24s who are totally deaf ears. And among the wealthier ABC1 demographic 36% absolutely don’t want to know, against just 26% of the less well-off C2DEs.

So statistically speaking, Yes supporters looking to win over converts from among the ranks of No voters would be best advised to spend their time talking to young men in poorly-paid jobs, and steering clear of rich old ladies. But perhaps less expectedly, they could have almost as much luck at an SNP conference as a Labour one.

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231 to “Brick walls and open doors”

  1. Paula Rose says:

    This tweet to me by a Unionist blogger is accruing likes at a rate of knots-

    If English & Scots who are very similar cannot bear to live together what hope have we for multicultural harmony.

    An insight into the never under any circumstances mind.

  2. gordoz says:

    Now that is interesting and a good starting point in the process

  3. Skip_NC says:

    I find the last sentence a little out pf place. An SNP voter is not the same as an SNP conference attendee. I suspect there are a goodly number of SNP voters who do so simply because the SNP is competent at governing.

  4. Martin Cunningham says:

    @Paula Rose

    Yeah, I replied and pointed out the problem with the logic. ie. Independence is about governance not individual people. That these English & Scots people CAN & WILL live together in harmony, in an independent Scotland. Those people will be able to decide their own futures and not rely on the parliament in London which they didn’t vote for.

    Of course … the reply??

    “Only people with little yellow thistles on their picture pretend to believe that”

    That’s where you just start banging your head off the desk.

  5. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @Pau;la Rose

    Effie Deans.

  6. Clyde1998 says:

    What was the breakdown by Referendum VI?

    41% who would always vote ‘Yes’ is smaller than the 47% who would vote ‘Yes’ if the referendum was held again.

  7. schrodingers cat says:

    really useful info stu. thanks

    sorry if im being stupid
    question, are these figures based on recall of ge votes?

    eg
    labour = 25%
    snp=50%

    34% of labour voters is about 8%
    15% of snp voters is about 7.5%

    is this what you mean when you say indy converts are as like to be found in the same numbers among labour and snp supporters?

  8. Andrew Morton says:

    For many years I’ve thought that the percentage of irreconcilables was 25-30%. This confirms that. Presumably, as the oldies (of which I’m one) slip their cables, that percentage should fall.

  9. Ruglonian says:

    Another interesting one, cheers 🙂

  10. heedtracker says:

    If English & Scots who are very similar cannot bear to live together what hope have we for multicultural harmony.

    So how do they rub along with all the other countries that they once thought they’d govern for ever and all their neighbours too. England seem to be on pretty good terms with everyone, from the US to Austrailia and New Zealand. Just the scrounger sweaty socks then.

  11. Robert Whyte says:

    Only thing you need is time. Old people will die and young people starting to vote will have an open mind.

  12. Valerie says:

    I don’t really understand SNP supporters either.

    An acquaintance said to me -I used to vote SNP until they started this independence nonsense. A little more digging showed her to be more of a closet Tory, and she loves Betty Windsor, who I called a benefits scrounger.

    She was very surprised when I told her Salmond wants Betty to remain as Queen of Scots.

    There is a lot of ignorance out there, about the basics. Lots, like this woman in her 40s, are lazily reading headlines, and just spouting off.

  13. Thomas Valentine says:

    Don’t know if in terms of the percentage willing to consider independence is anything new. Previous polls have shown the majority would like Scotland to be independent again.

    Also we all know who are the absolute opposition. Namely anyone who thinks they occupy a higher social status and economic position. Some are just racists or sectarian bigots. Most walk around with a heightened sense of self worth that though delusional is very important to them. They think they’ll lose it all with independence, which is very true.

    We will take it all away from these people. Not because we are robbing them out of spite but because they never earned it in the first place. To survive and prosper we need the best people in these positions. Where the UK wants to limit the top of society to a very restricted and incompetent social group. So a declining economy and an ever increasing need to viciously exploit the working population.

    Right now racist and sectarian groups are out there trying to win over young men. Surely like human rights laws this is a battle worth fighting.

  14. heedtracker says:

    What hope for multicultural harmony and England? 400,000 now live in their Scotland region and quite a lot have no probs with emigrating to multicultural places, or “fleeing” the UK this load of Toryboys call it

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11620356/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html

  15. Anne Bruce says:

    Less talk of when the oldies drop off their perch, please!

    This oldie will never vote for anything OTHER THAN Independence. Several other oldies in my family are of a similar view.

    Strangely, it’s some of the younger ones I know who have yet to be convinced.

    Hopefully, Scotland will achieve my – and others’ – dreams before I slip my cable.

  16. Ruby says:

    ‘If English & Scots who are very similar cannot bear to live together what hope have we for multicultural harmony.’

    ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ seem to have managed to convince the ‘non thinkers’ that Scots & English cannot bear to live together.

    The above tweet is complete nonsense because Scots & English can live together and on top of that Scots & English are multi-cultural unless this tweeter believes all Scots & English share the same culture that only people with a certain culture are Scots or English. Not sure what that culture is ‘British Culture’?

    I think I would be asking this tweeter to define what he means by Scots & English & what this culture is that we share. Then again I would probably just dismiss him/her as yet another idiot who would be best ignored.

  17. Ruby says:

    It would be interesting to find out why the 30% would never vote for Independence.

  18. cearc says:

    Another way of looking at it is that there are people of all ages, all income groups and all political preferences who are open to persuasion.

    It is not so much a matter of which groups to target but it is down to individuals talking to individuals wherever you find them.

    It is much easier without the polarizing effect of an official campaign to talk to people.

    We must all know some no-voters and probably know their main reasons for voting no. So there is your target. Tailored bits of information being fed to one person at a time.

  19. Kenny says:

    I think a good deal of the “never!” block would be swayed by one thing…. lucre. If there is a sovereign debt crisis in the UK, I think that would swing a lot of “never!” voters to indy, especially as the SNP has never put a foot wrong in terms of its economic governance.

    I think a lot of the motivation to vote NO is selfish and greedy reasons. I honestly think NO voters are less altruistic.

    So I would concentrate on the “poorly paid males”, especially Labour voters (because they may be “default” Labour voters — family always did…), and leave the coming economic problems to work on the “never!” brigade, rather than try to waste time arguing with the “blue-rinse bowling brigade” (who only believe what they read in the Telegraph anyway).

    People talk about the grim reaper taking away NO voters. But I see the ever-growing financial problems also doing their work.

    Another point is: once converted, a YES voter never seems to want to go back to NO. A further point is: the direction is one-way. The move towards indy is a process and is inevitable. Does anyone seriously believe Scotland will not be independent in 2030? [I believe it will happen before 2020]

    To be honest, the RIC was so thorough in its campaign in the cities that I am surprised there is anyone left to convince among “poorly-paid males”. But the thing to do is obviously to work on the Labour vote (and hope SLAB continue to be so dreadful — and they will, they have absolutely zero talent).

  20. nodrog says:

    That means we have 41% already and another 28% who remain to be persuaded. Our target is 60% and we need to make the case for it. We spent most of our efforts the last time, playing table tennis with how the numbers stack up today. What we need to do is ignore all that irrelevance and paint the picture of how Scotland could be if it was Independent.

    In all of the areas of life and economics we have the experts who could do this on our side. This could be organised just like the Wee Blue Book and similarly funded. Then a suitable launch date after May 2016 could be set accompanied with a full bloodied yell for YES resounding around Scotland. The preparation needs to start now. We gotta get organised.

    Always look on the bright side of life – deedum deedum deedum dum dum. Let’s go for it.

  21. Angra Mainyu says:

    Surely the old people who die off will be replaced with…. well…. other old people who…. like all of us…are…. getting older all the time?

    Hope I die before I vote get no….

  22. Clootie says:

    …so for the English to “get along” with the French, Italians, Swedish, Canadians, Chileans ,Swiss, Japanese, Indians , Danish etc etc they have to be ruled from Westminster as one country?

    Some logic!!!

  23. Colin Church says:

    Will a Great Britain / Rule Britannia modern day Crusade firm up that wavering demographic. It worked for Thatcher with the Falklands. Sleep under a Cool Britannia duvet or a butterfly Saltire..? Divide to conquer.

    See Sky senior politics guys ramping up the othering of suspects by pronouncing with guttural ughs. Usually can’t be arsed pronouncing things in native’s tongues but not now.

  24. Grouse Beater says:

    Valerie: “I used to vote SNP until they started this independence nonsense”

    I never understood the attitude either. While I could just about understand those who wanted independence later than earlier, it remains illogical (Captain Kirk) why anybody would identify with all SNP policies which are, after all, predicated on full autonomy reinstated, and a new Treaty negotiated with England.

    Later, I met SNP ex-Lib-Dems and a few disaffected Tories who made plain they wanted better policies fashioned purely for Scotland, but not independence regained.

  25. seymour strangely says:

    Some say, wait for elderly No-voters to pass away and Yes will naturally predominate.

    But consider that older No-voters who pass away may be replaced by others, who were middle-aged but are now advancing in years. There is a natural tendency – it does not apply to all, but to many – to become more conservative with a small “c” as people get older. So middle-aged Yessers may turn into elderly No-ers.

    Thus, the relative percentages of elderly No-voters may not change much simply by time passing. And in fact more people are living into their 80s and 90s than was once the case.

    So we can’t necessarily expect that No-voters are dying off in greater numbers than Yes-voters.

    Changing minds by good arguments is always the best approach in my view.

  26. Roboscot says:

    The 69% who either support independence or are not against it in principle is similar to the 67% who voted in favour of a Scottish Parliament in the 1997 referendum and the percentage of people regularly found in favour of devo max when asked in opinion polls. It seems a lot of people would like to continue with the devolution process before supporting – or not supporting – independence. Perhaps we should focus on ending the devolution process as quickly as possible so the only two options are independence and the status quo.

  27. Robin Stevenson says:

    “Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP voters say they’d never vote for independence under any circumstances”.

    So, regardless of whether or not the UK Gov came right out and said “We hate your guts and wish you Sweatysocks P***ed off”. and regardless if they decided to close down every industry and kill the firstborn of each Scottish family, along with dropping the entire UKs raw sewage on the doorstep of every Scottish household, these non thinking reprobates would still say “No thanks”,…Really?

  28. Petra says:

    ”So statistically speaking, Yes supporters looking to win over converts from among the ranks of No voters would be best advised to spend their time talking to young men in poorly-paid jobs, and steering clear of rich old ladies.”

    @ Thomas Valentine says at 6:03 pm ”Right now racist and sectarian groups are out there trying to win over young men. Surely like human rights laws this is a battle worth fighting.”

    Spot on Thomas. That’s a key element of the OO ramping up their number of marches …. trying to attract youngsters who want to play at being ‘soldiers’, lol, without having to join the Army. That’s why Mathieson and GCC Unionists have allowed, in fact encouraged, so many marches to take place: The ‘so-called we love Scotland brigade’ that are more than happy to bring N Irelands poo-poo to our shores.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJygND8jvLU

    They know what we know and that is that young men from poorer backgrounds are ripe for ‘converting’. Let’s keep an eye on GCC and see if their Orange Order ‘policy’ changes now that Mathieson is gone; or not. What way will the wind blow now?

  29. BapsMac says:

    “Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP voters say they’d never vote for independence”

    My granny voted for Gordon Wilson through 70’s & 80’s. She was never for independence as far as I could make out but thought he was a good MP.

  30. Chitterinlicht says:

    Interesting.

    It would not surprise me if as people get older they are more inclined to vote no. It may not be a generational thing.

  31. john king says:

    Robin Stevenson
    “So, regardless of whether or not the UK Gov came right out and said “We hate your guts and wish you Sweatysocks P***ed off”. and regardless if they decided to close down every industry and kill the firstborn of each Scottish family, along with dropping the entire UKs raw sewage on the doorstep of every Scottish household, these non thinking reprobates would still say “No thanks”,…Really?”

    Well, theres still Eastenders and Doctor who!

  32. john king says:

    Chitternlicht @7.18
    If I ilve to be a hundred and twenty Ill never vote no!
    Over my cold dead body.

  33. Bob Mack says:

    Allegiance to the Union comes in many forms. Tradition, cultural , religion ,economic fear, Honours OBE CBE etc, allegiance to Royalty, politics ,business, media,family,to name some.

    The ties which bind have had over three hundred years to develop,and they are designed to trap and ensnare,which they have done quite effectively.
    Breaking these various indings does take time,but is happening. We only have to keep the pressure on, and keep pushing the positive message about our country.

  34. Robin Stevenson says:

    @John King

    Good point John, which more or less emphasises, that the sooner we have a Scottish broadcasting corporation [SBC] the sooner we can simply demonstrate that we’re not actually losing anything, and we’ll STILL be able to broadcast their favourite programmes. Although in fairness, we may have to change one or two like the “Great Scottish Bakeoff”… 🙂

  35. Lochside says:

    The same old refrain…’when the auld yins die oot’…we’ll have the numbers for Indy. I’m afraid I’m not so sure. Consider this: the longer we struggle under the Tory/Unionist cosh..the young and able are continuing to leave…Meanwhile RUK incoming migration is increasing…and as we try to protect our services, unlike RUK, IT may well become even more so.

    Everyone who pitches up here from RUK has a vote within a short period and can, like the last REF, help to tip the balance against the indigenous vote.

    Most of them are older and better off ‘white flighters’ and predominantly implacable Unionist in outlook. I knew plenty of them that voted SNP in order to keep free personal care, frozen community charge etc. but didn’t vote YES in the REF and never will.

  36. Since any poll is merely a “snapshot” of views held at a specific time presumably it is possible that a proportion of respondents in any poll will be affected by what is going on around them in their society at a particular point in time.

    Depending on both the economic and political conditions prevailing and the length of time that passes before another referendum takes place it is entirely conceivable that some percentage of current YES and NO voters will change their minds depending upon their individual life experiences.

    It would be unwise to presume that some YES voters won’t be adversely affected and it would also be stupid, as appears to be done by many posters, to write off the older generation.

  37. wullie says:

    We Scots are always being whined at. And I am sick of it, Isn’t it about time we started to ask our southern neighbours. re

    when are you going to learn to stand on your own feet without stealing the resources of other countries whether natural or human.

    For a start try living within your own means, whatever your country can provide for you.

    Or are you incapable, go on make everyones day, or are you to scared, you might be to poor, or in that big bad world out there you may find yourselves to wee.

  38. Ben says:

    There are people however that will say they never would vote for independence that would.
    Difference between saying what you would do and what you actually do.
    When the next financial crash comes, and it won’t be long, Indy supporters need to make sure they nail this ‘broad shoulders ‘ bollocks to the wall.
    The UK is an economic version of all fur coat and no knickers. We can’t let them spin their way out of it when the inevitable happens

  39. liz says:

    @Ruby – the 30% fits very closely to Lord Ashcroft’s post indy poll where he had 27% voted No because of a strong attachment to the UK, it’s history, culture and traditions.

    So the UK is their country

  40. Taranaich says:

    A couple of things:

    The fact that there’s a much higher percentage of “definite” Yes voters (41%) than “definite” No voters (30%) is very telling when it comes to the state of the union – it shows that a greater proportion of people who support independence are solid, compared to the anti-independence supporters. It’s just so maddening that most of those open to persuasion decided to go with the 30% hardcore Nos instead of the 41% hardcore Yes (but then, that number might have been different pre-referendum).

    It’s also very clear that this “settled will of the Scottish people” is nothing of the sort. While a lot of independence supporters may have erroneously thought all Yes voters were just as dedicated as they were (chance would be a fine thing), most of the No supporters I’ve encountered can’t help but make the same mistake – presuming “No” to mean “absolutely never ever again you horrible nasty people.”

    And, as the eternal optimist, I refuse to believe that as many as 30% of Scots could possibly believe they would never vote for independence under any circumstances. Maybe I’m just too young, or naive, or what, but I’d like to believe in my people a bit more than to think a whole 30% are beyond saving.

    But then, we’re not doing this for their thanks or their appreciation – we’re doing this for all of us.

  41. Luigi says:

    Ruby says:
    15 November, 2015 at 6:19 pm

    It would be interesting to find out why the 30% would never vote for Independence.

    It’s their belief system. Strong attachment to tradition and identification as British. This type is also the most angry as they can clearly see the union crumbling around them and they cannot do anything about it. Best described as “conservative frustration”.

  42. msean says:

    @wullie

    I’m not sure they could support themselves,explains the panic last year. Is there some kind of gers figures for England alone without oil or the benefits it brings to the city?

  43. galamcennalath says:

    It is interesting that no one group is totally beyond conversion. One in five Tories, one in three Labour, one in two Libdems.

    And, with age, gender and social status – not absolute difference just degrees.

    Yes, young male in a poorly paid job is a primary target. But little old rich Tory voting ladies are probably about a one in ten chance of conversion, perhaps.

    I think the lesson has to be, chip chip away in every direction on every demographic group.

    Education, information, exposure to the world beyond CorpMedia and the BBC will deliver Indy.

    That was the good news. The bad news is perhaps that the situation is currently fragile. ‘Only’ 41% are absolutely committed so the poll of polls figures of 50:50 must include a good many who have been persuaded by what they see around them. They are soft Yes. We need to be careful nothing turns them off!

  44. Luigi says:

    It’s worth noting that many unionists voted SNP simply because the Scottish unionist parties are so crap. Unionists may be daft but they are not stupid. 🙂

  45. heedtracker says:

    Everyone young is a possible YES in Scotland and England. On one side of the border we listening patiently to red tory SLabour rage at SNP Scots.gov NOT charging tution fees, while the Lab goon show in the south

    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/15/students-further-protests-higher-education-reforms

    ” Since then the government has unveiled its higher education green paper, which students say represents a concerted attack on the purpose of free education.

    Activists are now organising a two-day strike in February next year which could see thousands of students walk out of lectures at campuses around the country.

    The campaign has received backing from the top of the Labour party. The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, spoke at this month’s rally, and many of the students taking a lead in the campaign were involved in Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership bid.”

    SO, what the feck is future Labour UK.gov Chancellor McDonnell telling prospective students in England? Exact opposite of SLab in Scotland basically.

    Much like Trident 2.

  46. I would ask the3 per cent,of the snp members who would never vote for independence why are you in the snp you,obviously do not belong there or are you 5th colonists ?

  47. geeo says:

    I would love to see the results of a poll about Scottish independence carried out only in england only.

    “Do you believe that england subsidises Scotland” ?

    “Do you think Scotland should be independent” ?

    “Should there be a referendum in england for english independence” ?

    Those kind of things…?

  48. Stoker says:

    Rev wrote:
    “Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP voters say they’d never vote for independence.”

    I wonder if these people are also SNP members, or just voters?

    Either way Rev, if this poll is an accurate reflection of Scotland as a whole then our task is nowhere near as impossible as some would have us believe.

    Add to that how we rose from circa 30% pre referendum up to circa 45% on the big day and have since risen another few percentages to a whisker away from 50% and we can almost smell the coffee.

    C’mon Scotland, wakey wakey, the alarm’s going off.

  49. Croompenstein says:

    Some of the never vote yes crew were in Ayrshire today…

    http://tinyurl.com/pvwb9mn

  50. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Blair Peterson, they’re SNP voters, not members. They could be quite happy with their personal care, or whatever, that they get under an SNP Scotgov so they vote to maintain that. But dont want to rock the boat with their UK gov pension whatever. To them, it really is better together

  51. heraldnomore says:

    Patience. Five years of EVEL; posh boys and the other bunch carping from the sidelines and it’s a done deal. The problem is not the politicians, it’s the MSM. How do we win them over?

  52. Macart says:

    We simply need to keep on doing what we’re doing with a bit finer targeting on that 28%.

    Westminster will provide the next impetus all by themselves. They simply can’t help being who and what they are.

  53. Clootie says:

    john king says:
    15 November, 2015 at 7:25 pm

    I agree – I’ll never vote NO over your cold dead body 😀

  54. Ken Mair says:

    The main barrier I encounter is the absolute tonnage of cargo the unionists load onto the simple human right question of self determination. The idea being the more complicated they make it the less chance it has of floating.Apparently they succesfully convinced most people that it was a party political issue, hinged on anti englishness , it was a battle and economics would be the battle ground. It was duly reported as an election not a referendum and as politics fighting not a human right being claimed.

    Human relationships is the biggest emotional blackmail issue they use. Very strange as I cannot think of another country that says to its neighbor “Unless we can govern over you from our own capital with a permanent majority , we will presume you hate us”. A petulant child could not come up with anything more manipulative and wrong.
    But exasperatingly it has worked and people believe it.

    The truth is quite different , like my friends and family that has a lot of English and other nationalities both in Scotland and England. They all support self determination.

    The assumption are jaw dropping, unionists presume I am a Nationalist, an SNP member, party political, and so on. I am none of these things and simply want to hold my head up among the family of nations knowing we govern ourselves and we have a seat at the table when the nation talk.We decide about the priorities .
    One unionist derided Scots for having a “dependency culture” but then confusingly criticized independence as well. Damned if you do damned if you dont. It made me think he wanted Scotland in this infantile state permanently. .

  55. Dcanmore says:

    The 28% NO block that likes the idea of independence but need to be persuaded to vote YES are ones that are looking to be bought. Usually its people who have worked themselves into a lower middle class lifestyle but are always looking out for a bit more, perhaps feeling a YES vote would cost them a £pound.

    Two million YES votes are needed for independence to be a reality, if the Scottish government guaranteed £300 to everyone if they delivered independence (dividend that would cost approx £1.2 billion) then independence would arrive in a heartbeat.

    I know it sounds cynical and deflating, as we would like independence through heartfelt progressive and positive debate and persuasion, but the truth there is a large percentage who feel they have nothing to gain by a YES vote are probably willing to be bought, just like how the country was sold in the first place.

    … or what I would do is give every Scottish citizen at voting age direct shares in a new nationalised oil company and an investment bank that trades on the ScotPound digital currency. That way they will have a return practically forever. Dangling carrots in other words.

  56. Petra says:

    @ Lochside says at 7:36 pm ”The same old refrain…’when the auld yins die oot’…we’ll have the numbers for Indy. I’m afraid I’m not so sure. Consider this: the longer we struggle under the Tory/Unionist cosh..the young and able are continuing to leave…Meanwhile RUK incoming migration is increasing…and as we try to protect our services, unlike RUK, IT may well become even more so.

    Everyone who pitches up here from RUK has a vote within a short period and can, like the last REF, help to tip the balance against the indigenous vote.

    Most of them are older and better off ‘white flighters’ and predominantly implacable Unionist in outlook. I knew plenty of them that voted SNP in order to keep free personal care, frozen community charge etc. but didn’t vote YES in the REF and never will.”

    Spot on Lochside. Auld Scots dying off wont help us one bit not when they’re being replaced by auld rUK folks year after year.

    ”Everyone who pitches up here from RUK has a vote within a short period and can, like the last REF, help to tip the balance against the indigenous vote.”

    Yeah and that period is 3 weeks so just come along for an extended holiday, rent a flat and register at least 3 weeks before the Referendum, and you can vote here. We must be off our heads. We could have won the Referendum last year, and got out of this hell-hole, but blew it.

    We’ll have to get the percentage of yes voters up to around 60% SOON or we’ll never win the Referendum between one thing and another: escalating migration, escalating immigration, electoral policy, high unemployment and so on.

  57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Roboscot at 6.56

    A thoughtful post with which I fully agree. We are running the risk of giving credibility to anti independence devo ploys if we play about too long with them.
    We have to make it plain that we will of course take any useful extra powers offered us but these will in no way affect our progress towards independence or our campaign for it.

    The figures confirm what I have believed for some time. There are many more people who are determined to have independence than there are determined against it. The floaters are the ones influenced most by the media. These are the ones who are most easily influenced by obvious personal identification for independence by such as car stickers and badges proudly worn.

    A warning. It doesn’t do to assume the young who support independence today will continue to do so. People tend to become more conservative as they grow older.

  58. Petra says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 8:39 pm ”A warning. It doesn’t do to assume the young who support independence today will continue to do so. People tend to become more conservative as they grow older.”

    Especially when they get married, have kids and get a mortgage.

  59. Dr Jim says:

    People are pretty much products of their upbringing and environment, education plays in, but one thing I don’t think does is the stupid sounding notion some folk have of saying “We look the same…so”

    Bloody stupid that and kinda racist, would these same folk say all black people think the same just because they’re black, and there you have the average English folks answer and it makes sense to them because their brung upness is different

    We Scots have the sure and certain knowledge we are in charge of nothing and never have been, that damages a person and a country’s sense of self worth over time and leads to depression which we all know as the “Ach we’ll never win anything” syndrome, whereas the English not only expect to win but believe themselves to be all powerful, and if not why not (Enquiry, National News,it’s a Travesty, off with someones head)

    If Scottish people were a different colour I’m quite convinced Independence would’ve been a snap, there wouldn’t have been any opposition from Jakey Rowling, Footballers and Pop Stars if I remember who were all white even the Pope, Europe would’ve been saying we;re different like Haggis and must have Ethnic status

    I’m hitting the Tanning Salon
    Well we’ve tried everything else, let’s go ethnic

  60. Doug McG says:

    Get the money and the pensions sorted out and EVERYTHING drops into place.

  61. ahundredthidiot says:

    ‘Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP supporters are in No Way camp’

    These are No voters, who vote SNP for a stronger voice at both Holyrood and WM……

    …….also known as……thick fucking c*nts

    They are worse than union jack waving orange men types

  62. galamcennalath says:

    Ken Mair says:

    “Apparently they succesfully convinced most people that it was a party political issue”

    Yes, I think so. I am convinced some people thought that a Yes vote was a vote for Alex Salmond and the SNP. And, this was done intentionally by the NO side.

    The big picture. Scotland’s future. Self determination. A Nation among nations. All lost in a false fog of manufactured party politics.

  63. Saor Alba says:

    @Ken Mair

    I empathise totally with your last paragraph, viz

    “The assumptions are jaw dropping, unionists presume I am a Nationalist, an SNP member, party political, and so on. I am none of these things and simply want to hold my head up among the family of nations knowing we govern ourselves and we have a seat at the table when the nation talk.We decide about the priorities.”

    Also, you have clearly pointed out the contradiction of the Unionist stance:

    “One unionist derided Scots for having a “dependency culture” but then confusingly criticized independence as well. Damned if you do damned if you dont. It made me think he wanted Scotland in this infantile state permanently.”

  64. chitterinlicht: “It may not be a generational thing.”

    Older people are more conservative than younger, and women are more risk-averse than men. Not just in politics, but in daily life, financial decisions, and so on. That seems to be a general rule.

    But, there ARE generational factors that might be expected to work in YES’s favour. A big one is the inverse correlation between age and number of physical and emotional beatings received from authority figures. Our current crop of geriatrics got every drop of independent thought tawsed and lochgelly’d out of them at school and at home. The bulk of under 30s were seldom skelpit – so they’re more likely to thumb their noses at the powers that be.

    Then you’ve got the gradual decline of triumphalist BritNat trumpeting in schools, in the kirk, in the scout hall, in the workplace, etc… which is probably as much to do with the rise of multiculturalism in Britain as anything else, and the empire becoming an embarrassment. Younger people have less fear of being a social pariah if they criticise the status quo.

    Then you’ve got the internet and alternative media. Foagies may still believe that the Beeb and the Mail are THE TRUTH, but the young yins will never ever take a single source as definitive, even if they live to 200 and turn tory.

    Last there’s life experience under UKOK. Old than a boomer: you got a gradually improving standard of living, a new welfare state, and you could buy a house for spare change. Younger than a boomer: you’ve seen a gradual erosion of your life chances and safety net.

    —————————————

    o/t Some people on here have been asking what happened to Inform Scotland. It’s took longer than expected to set things up, for a number of reasons. We hope to have a very positive announcement, very soon

  65. galamcennalath says:

    Roboscot says:
    at 6:56 pm
    “Perhaps we should focus on ending the devolution process as quickly as possible so the only two options are independence and the status quo.”

    I am in total agreement.

    The current DevoCameron is probably as far as they will go. DevoMax could work, but it will never ever happen. It is a pipe dream. WM will never allow it.

    Those who consider it still to be an option to work towards are only delaying independence. It is not an option, and never will be.

  66. Rock says:

    “older voters are even less fertile ground, with 37% of the over-55s firmly in the “no way!” camp”

    “And among the wealthier ABC1 demographic 36% absolutely don’t want to know”

    The British nationalist proud of the empire 70% of the elderly.

    The selfish 90% of the middle classes.

    Most of the 400,000 settlers from South Britain also fall into these categories.

    Most of the 28% not closed to the idea of independence would be from the working class.

    If we want a majority next time, completely ignore the first lot and spare no resources in convincing the second lot.

    The Radical Independence Campaign would probably have got us the 6% more we needed if it had the resources.

  67. Cadogan Enright says:

    I totally believe the 3% figure of people who vote SNP and oppose independence. I predict it will grow and create a stepping stone for these people to move forward.

    It must be dawning on more of this 30% that oppose independence that the SNP is always going to try and cut the best deal for Scotland, and this realisation will even penetrate the biggest Corporate a Media information shield around the 30% who cannot be protected from all info leaks from our side.

    It’s actually irrational to suggest that the SNP would seek anything less than the best for Scotland, something that could not be said of the other parties.

    Seems to me that the SNP can simply keep reiterating that they will always put the Scottish People First regardless of political opinion. , they will set more than 3% on the slippery slope from voting for SNP and independence.

    It would be interesting to see how many committed supporters of independence vote for other parties.

  68. msean says:

    I’m sure someone this time will be looking into a Scottish currency.Take away the “it’s our ball and we’re not sharing” mentality,and you will have a chance.

  69. Colin Church says:

    @Lochside @Petra

    It was a very generous franchise in 2014 primarily to avoid Blood and Soil insults. That worked out well!

    Compare and contrast to EU ref franchise.

    Despite the obvious slap down that will come from the UKOK MSM we do really need to look at register to get a fair vote on real residency. 600k missing now. Where did they go? How many from Corby that notionally, fictionally moved back home with relatives to Clackmananshire for minimum time to be eligible?

    Tax and representation. We need to have a system where this works next time.

  70. Nana says:

    Cameron said he was staying out of the referendum debate, said it was a matter for the Scottish people.

    Well we did know he was running project fear, but here’s the proof

    https://archive.is/frv3Z

    How much more do we need to know before the result is declared null and void.

  71. It would also be interesting to see if the gender split on attitudes to independence is consistent across the age groups. Is the ratio of men to women in their 30s who support indy the same as for men and women in their 60s, for example? I have a sense that younger women are more bolshy and willing to make change than their elders, and it’s a cultural/upbringing thing rather than just about age. No?

  72. Thepnr says:

    @Rock

    Waited a while but you have said something I actually agree with, Not this obviously:

    “The British nationalist proud of the empire 70% of the elderly.
    The selfish 90% of the middle classes.”

    Unless you can cite your reference, I don’t want to know. I do agree with the second part of your post.

    “Most of the 28% not closed to the idea of independence would be from the working class.

    If we want a majority next time, completely ignore the first lot and spare no resources in convincing the second lot.”

    We shouldn’t overdo our stereotyping as to who most likely vote Yes or No as you have done, seriously “selfish 90% of the middle classes”.

    I believe when the tables for this poll are released you are likely to find out that statement is just, well false.

  73. iain taylor says:

    The 30% “never ever” figure is interesting. My guts always told me it’s about 25-30%

  74. Onwards says:

    This shows why those who genuinely feel we need 60% in the polls before calling a second referendum are absolute idiots.

    We have a 30% obstacle who say they will NEVER vote for independence under any circumstances. (Although many of these will be old folks whose formative years were in a post war Britain before the SNP made any impact. They will eventually be replaced by a more confident younger generation.)

    But in the short term, that leaves us having to convince 6 out of every 7 people left before a campaign is even underway.
    We all saw how support drastically increased during the last campaign.

    The simple truth is that many people get stuck in their ways. Many are just opposed to change of any kind, and that will always be a built in obstacle. The psychological effect of “status quo bias”.

    It will also apply when we are independent. Almost no-one will ever want to give that up. And now under devolution very few people, apart from a few English Tories, want to abolish the Scottish Parliament and go back to direct London rule.

    The stubborn 30% makes me think that a gradualist approach has benefits. It changes the landscape so Scottish issues take more importance. Every new power devolved helps to makes Holyrood the focus of political life, not Westminster.

    Income tax devolution is in no way sufficient on its own, but it will start a mood of competition, and concentrate minds on where the rest of the money is going.

  75. ScottieDog says:

    It’s about going for the low hanging fruit first – the block that need to be convinced – not harassed or criticised. Much of the disgust I hear about SNP policies are based on headlines but when you dig deeper there is no knowledge to back up opinions.

    It’s sometimes the hardest thing in the world to keep the cool with such folk but we have to try to go about making them see the light in a calm manner.

    It’s good to have a subject which you are passionate about. It could be Middle East affairs, education, etc. Mine is money and I love educating folk about how our beliefs about it have become so distorted. I try to keep it free of politics but at the same time making it clear that the last 3 decades of UK govt have become wholly owned by the city of London. References provided of course.

    People need to really understand the realities of neo-liberal Britain in order for them to be more willing to walk away from it.

  76. Macart says:

    @Nana

    No shocks there Nana and for those motivated by fear or what they would call fiscal pragmatism, it won’t alter a thing. For those already convinced of the need for independence it is merely another example of why we cannot and must not let last September’s result remain unchallenged.

    It was a bad result, bought on the back of fear, deceit and the misuse of power. The union as it stands, is built on a lie. For any union, never mind a political union, a relationship built on lies is unsustainable.

  77. Still Positive. says:

    I reckon that the over-65s who voted Yes have probably, like me, wanted Indy since they were young and they are never going to change their minds.

    The challenge for us in that age-group is to try to convert one other person and the way to do this is by highlighting the differences between the English and Scottish NHS.

    Last summer I compared both of them for my Yes shop and even I was surprised.

    I used bullet points under key subjects such as: prescription charges; eye and dental checks; bowel cancer tests; privatisation; waiting times for surgery; and free personal care among others. Things have got worse in England since then.

    Remember that Dr. Phillipa Whitford warned us if we voted No then there would be no NHS in Scotland in 10 years.

  78. Capella says:

    Here’s something you won’t find on the BBC. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh interviewed, in a current affairs programme, on her bill to offer automatic hardship payments.

    https://www.rt.com/shows/going-underground/321554-sanction-starving-profit-punishment/

    Afshin Rattansi on Going Underground interviews.

  79. Colken says:

    I’d be wary about targeting specific groups to convince; that’s pretty much what Labours tactic has been in successive GEs and look how that turned out for them. Salmond was guilty of pandering, with the best of intentions, to certain groups (royalists, NATO membership etc) to get them onside but it made the debate a confusing pick and mix for many with strong views. The economic case is the crux of it; get that right and every other question can be answered with, ‘well, that’s for YOU to decide’.

    The media is and always will be the spanner in the works though. You have to wonder if the 30% would be anywhere near that figure if they hadn’t been subjected to constant unionist propaganda for years.
    Anyone know a philanthropic billionaire Scot willing to finance a quality TV channel?

    Me neither.

  80. Andrew Coulson says:

    The best thing we, the ordinary people, could do to shorten the time to independence, would be to set up and use an informal parallel digital currency – like a cross between bitcoin and the Brixton Pound. I say ‘the ordinary people’, because it would be suicidal for the SNP to go anywhere near the idea, until it was established, working and growing to Scotland-wide. At that stage, the forces for independence could grab it as the best answer possible to the killer question ‘What’s your Plan B on the currency?’ Maybe even a Plan A!

  81. scottieDog says:

    @Andrew Coulson
    My thoughts exactly. We need monetary innovation. It’s something we can do now and don’t even need to wait for scot pound. There are hundreds of examples all over Europe.

    When people are comfortable with these different kinds of currencies they will be far more amenable to a new scottish currency should scotland vote for independence.
    Sharing the pound really isn’t an option.

  82. Colin Church: “It was a very generous franchise in 2014 primarily to avoid Blood and Soil insults. That worked out well!”

    Up to now, I always said that a franchise based solely on residence (like we had last year) was the most democratic way of doing things – because it’s the people who LIVE HERE whose interests are affected, regardless of country of origin… and not ex-pats, etc.

    But I had a re-think. Most functioning democracies give the vote to all citizens, even those living abroad. This is reasonable: citizens have confirmed responsibilities and rights in relation to the state, and can be expected to have the welfare of the country’s people and territory at heart. You can’t expect the same of immigrants who don’t choose to naturalise, or emigrants who naturalise elsewhere.

    So I’d like to propose pre-registration for citizenship as part of the IndyRef2 franchise. Anyone born here can vote, as well as anybody who’s living here for a year by the time IndyRef2 is announced, wherever they come from. Also include anyone born here but living abroad. But, ALL voters must sign the following pledge in order to register.

    “I, [insert name], am a member of the Scottish People, either by birth or by abode. By registering to vote to decide Scotland’s future, I acknowledge the sovereign Scottish People’s inalienable right to choose our own form of government, without external interference. I pledge to uphold any future national constitution that is duly ratified by plebiscite of the whole Scottish people, and to accept the responsibilities of a citizen under it. I will protect the constitution of Scotland against all enemies, foreign or domestic. So help me [insert deity of choice]”

    At least half the hard naws will balk at that, and hey presto, YES 75%! 🙂

  83. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Hail Alba at 9.03

    “simply want to hold my head up among the family of nations knowing we govern ourselves and we have a seat at the table when the nations talk.We decide about the priorities”

    Which means you are a nationalist. A perfectly respectable position to hold and I am fed up with people reacting to the attempted silly demonisation of the word. A nationalist is a person who recognises the nation he is part of and seeks to protect it, defend it and see it doing well.
    Just like virtually every person contributing here

  84. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    “Cameron …. was running project fear, but here’s the proof”

    I’m actually rather shocked by those revelations. The meetings with the media Cameron had in the final weeks of the referendum campaign. I guess making sure that all the key people were ‘on side’.

    I am also surprised that they have been quite so open about it all! I would have assumed it would all be kept a secret. But no, they won, and they now don’t care who knows how they won.

    BBC impartial? Joke of the century.

  85. Jam says:

    I’d like to know if the old fogey no group is a cohort effect or if it’s an ageing effect..obviously it’s both but the extent of which…following age specific samples over time would reveal some of this but would also capture a general population shift towards yes…if older folk over time are disproportionately moving towards yes compared with younger folk that would be cause for optimism…if it’s also a sizeable part an ageing effect though rev stu then we need to ask why rev stu. As the demographics mean more of us will be in that group so we can’t afford to not prioritise them…my suspicion is it’s more of an ageing effect than we’d like to think although I have no concrete evidence whatsoever for this!

  86. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colken at 10.06

    “The economic case is the crux of it; get that right and every other question can be answered with, ‘well, that’s for YOU to decide’.”

    Exactly. We got trapped to an extent in less important diversions during the referendum campaign. We should know better now

  87. Rock says:

    Thepnr,

    “seriously “selfish 90% of the middle classes”.”

    Keep on hugging Tories to convert them to our cause Thepnr.

    When will you realise that “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” didn’t convince anyone who wasn’t convinced already.

    It is the selfish 90% of the middle class that will put their own selfishness above our desire for a fair and just society.

    It was W O S (boycotted by Yes Scotland) and the RIC that got us to the 45%.

  88. Patrician says:

    This ties in with polling data posted here before the referendum by Scottish Skier, iirc.

    The breakdown was roughly:

    66% identified as only Scottish
    18% identified as Scottish and British
    12% identified as only British
    4% identified as other.

    The people to be worked on are the remaining who identify as Scottish only. This is about identity politics, something the Yes campaign never got to grips with before indyref. In fact they ran scared from it every time BT raised it.

  89. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Still Positive at 9.55

    Any chance of you sending the information onthe NHS comparison you dug out to dalinlongart [at] gmail [dot] com?

  90. ahundredthidiot says:

    Autumn leaves fell quick

    Dog has never cast as much

    Cold winter ahead

    I feel that these numbers will change again come spring

    Old Yes voters! Wrap up and damn the fuel costs!!

  91. Thomas Valentine says:

    Perhaps we should look at this as the latest stage in a long process that began in the 1960’s. People who became adults then fixed on the idea as a possibility. Anyone before then was indoctrinated into seeing anything but the status-quo as ridiculous and unrealistic.

    What the American called the Baby Boomers form a big lump of voters 55 to 70. Over 80’s are just too rooted in a bye gone age. People who still call Africans darkies and won’t let black doctors touch them. The past is another country filled with uneducated beyond 14 years and highly indoctrinated and often bigoted people.

    In all I still think people who grew up in the 1950’s and early 60’s can be won over. Just point out how their world has disappeared and they are preventing us building a new one. They might just listen to their grand children.

  92. Rock says:

    Still Positive,

    “I reckon that the over-65s who voted Yes have probably, like me, wanted Indy since they were young and they are never going to change their minds.”

    Unfortunately, the 70% British nationalist elderly who voted No are also never going to change their minds no matter what.

    The elderly are on both sides very firmly decided.

    It is the working classes, the ones that have been duped by Labour for so long, that we need to spend all our efforts on.

  93. heedtracker says:

    Here’s something you won’t find on the BBC. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh interviewed, in a current affairs programme, on her bill to offer automatic hardship payments.

    And a the end of the interview, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh telling RT that Scotland has NO maritime patrols. That cant be right surely for christs sake?

    No doubt all the NO vote is feeling very secure across the Isles and Orkney and Shetland too.

  94. yesindyref2 says:

    Ashcroft had 27% of NO voters giving liking the UK and stuff as their reason for voting NO, but that’s 15% of the electorate. It contrasts with this 30% “never ever” figure.

    Ashcroft had 47% of of the NOes (nett 26%) giving their reason as “not convinced about the economy”, but 25% (nett 13%) “more powers are coming”. I’d guess that most of the “no not never” people come from the “not convinced” category, with the oil price being the main factor. But who knows?

    14% of the then SNP voters voted NO, but considering there are even more SNP voters now, 3% who wouldn’t ever vote for Indy is very very low, and very encouraging. I doubt many of that 3% or the 15% who could be convinced, are SNP members, though some could have joined the SNP on the back of “stronger for Scotland”, and chasing Smith / devo-max.

    There’s a poster in the Herald who voted SNP in 2011, but was a very firm NO voter, military guy. He thought the SNP were the best at running Scotland, and he’s no dummy.

    But in my opinion nobody is a waste of time talking to, nor any category. Any of them could vote YES next time, except the hardened activist, and if their party e.g. Labour changed its stance, so would they, probably. Hey, if the Conservatives came out for Indy, David Torrance would be cheerleading for Indy. You know it makes sense, David.

  95. caz-m says:

    heedtracker

    All Scotland has protecting it’s shores are the submarines based at Faslane. there are NO surface fleet ships in Scotland, NO maritime air cover, we have to ask other countries to do the air patrols for us.

    If you want a frigate in a hurry, you have to dial 999 and ask Portsmouth to send up a ship, because you are being invaded.

  96. I know a guy in his 80s who spits out the word ‘nationalist’ as if he’s saying ‘rapist’ – he thought the referendum was an omen of the apocalypse. The same guy plays the pipes (well), wears his kilt every day, and hates furriners and ‘darkies’. Go figure!

    We’re dealing with a dying generation who were raised to be ‘proud’ of Scotland only in terms of the Thin Red Line at Balaclava, and the fantasies of Wattie Scott. Their attitudes had some effect on their children, and less on their grandweans, and so on.

    But we can’t get independence through natural wastage. We need to listen calmly to everybody, and patiently present them with the facts whenever possible.

  97. HandandShrimp says:

    We are not the kind of people that will ever agree 100% on anything. I think if we manged to get 70% to vote for something that is as close to unanimous as we are likely to achieve.

    Over the next few years our goal is to persuade the 20% of voters that voted No but in their hearts lean to an independent Scotland and need reassurance that the sun will rise the next day if we do so.

    Likewise I wouldn’t fret over 3% of SNP voters that would never vote for independence. People are nothing if not perverse. The concept of rational man is for economic theories not real life.

  98. Cadogan Enright says:

    any sign of a digital Scottish currency getting up and going anytime soon?

    That would eventually be a game changer

  99. heedtracker says:

    If you want a frigate in a hurry, you have to dial 999 and ask Portsmouth to send up a ship, because you are being invaded.

    And yet Project Fear 2 is BetterTogether terrorising Scotland all the time, with an endless war on terror the UK.gov help create.

    There has to be a little voice inside the minds of NO voters asking WTF is going on around them. How can you terrify Scots electorate with endless, Trident 2 for deadly known unknown threats of the future, but have NO fucking military sea patrols in Scottish waters?

    Oh yeah, its all going completely unreported by the UKOK toryboy media, shock. You pays your money, you choose which red and blue media toryboy’s going to lie to you and misinform you

    War is good, for toryboy right to reign over us.

  100. Onwards says:

    Self-Government has to appeal to all. There is a danger in focusing only on one segment of society, namely traditional Labour voters and the disenfranchised that never vote.

    It’s not healthy for independence support to be typecast.
    We all saw how the likes of the Daily Mail tried to make it a snobbery thing and succeeded to a large degree.
    Yet several of the most successful businessmen in Scotland supported a YES vote.

    It’s better to be seen not just as the best choice for improved democracy, but as the aspirational choice. For upgrading Scotland’s global profile and giving us more opportunities to compete effectively and boost our economy. To make self-reliance and responsibility as a nation have more value than the fear of losing any perceived dependence.

  101. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Cadogan, watched Yanis Farouakis the other night on the Livestream. He was asked about iScot currency, his take was we already have one, Scot pound. We already print notes here. They’re not accepted down south, usually/often. So we’re almost there.

  102. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    caz-m at 11.05 and heedtracker

    And Norway has over 40 armed vessels in its waters (all built in Norway). Norway in fact built the British Navy’s Antarctic vessels

  103. Clootie says:

    It’s unfortunate some people jump to conclusions about people e.g. Selfish middle class
    Why try to label people in this way? How will that help the debate. People who do not agree with your view point cannot be bullied into voting YES they have to be convinced by the arguement.

    If we move away from case building for a fair society to pushing class division you are doing the work of the unionist. It is possible that the posters are unionists and posting for that very reason.

  104. Foonurt says:

    Aye,yoan poun-signs scraullt acroass thurr een. Innaw thoan wot, ware, wen, otel erses.

    Fingurrs oot folks.

  105. Still Positive. says:

    Dave McEwen Hill @ 10.32

    Tried to send you an email at the address you gave but it was rejected – came up in red print on my email.

    Feel free to ask the Rev for my email address. Rev you have my permission to give Dave McEwen Hill my email address.

  106. heedtracker says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    15 November, 2015 at 11:33 pm
    caz-m at 11.05 and heedtracker

    And Norway has over 40 armed vessels in its waters (all built in Norway). Norway in fact built the British Navy’s Antarctic vessels

    New Labour bought £6+ bn in aircraft carriers, that can’t fly jets and only for attack, attacking far off countries that can never strike back can they Crash Gordon, Bomber Bliar, expenses fraudster Flipper D, the whole Westminster crew that voted AYE to war in hot places, bombing them back to the stone age.

    I am rather glad Salmond was booed by this bunch of NO

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10946012/Alex-Salmond-booed-during-naming-of-HMS-Queen-Elizabeth.html

    Swords to ploughshares isn’t exactly the SLabour way really. Lets vote unionists out of Scotland for good.

  107. caz-m says:

    Dave McEwan Hill
    “And Norway has over 40 armed vessels in its waters (all built in Norway). Norway in fact built the British Navy’s Antarctic vessels.”

    Yes, and we also don’t even build our own North Sea supply vessels, all purchased from abroad.

    Dave, have you heard anything of the rumour that they might re-open Hunterston for decommissioning oil rigs?

  108. caz-m says:

    Aye heedtracker, 11.47pm

    I think they call those particular ships,

    “Aircraftless Carriers”.

  109. heedtracker says:

    Rancid The Graun, even more rancid than usual. How come they left out the union jack in this UKOK satire of endless horror? Oh but it’s all the US and Russia you see.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/commentisfree

    Didnt think it possible for Great British hypocrites like The Graun to get any worse but here we are, trapped in farce union with maniacs/very sane.

  110. heedtracker says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/nov/15/martin-rowson-on-the-world-after-the-paris-attacks-cartoon

    The work of very British toryboy hypocrisy and UK nationalist delusion I meant, unless there is an actual Union Jack gargoyle in there somewhere. Don’t have nightmares

  111. Petra says:

    @ Nana at 9:22pm ……… Thanks for that Nana.

    Not one bit surprised about Cameron’s meetings pre-Referendum. Anyone with half a brain knew what he was getting up to as it’s the kind of thing you’d do yourself if you were devious enough, had the right contacts and wanted to scupper the Referendum. There’s a cabal of Unionist journalists out there that have been working together for years now …. when it suits … and that continues / will continue.

    There’s also the old boy network of bankers, financiers, CEO’s, energy company, supermarket bosses and so on all ready to do the Unionist bidding at the drop of a hat ……following a wee telephone call ….. and then World leaders with their own hidden (or not so hidden) agendas / axes to grind, EU and NATO.

    Government departments such as the DWP, HMRC were instructed to tell their workers to vote no and staff at UK Embassies abroad were ordered to pass on communications to influential people. The Treasury and Civil Service were also involved in thwarting the outcome.

    The Celtic League reported Cameron to the UN for breaching purdah listing some of his nefarious activities such as involving world leaders, businesses etc and there has been no action taken against him. I’ll not be holding my breathe on anything being done about this. And it’s probably just the tip of the iceberg as far as what he has been / is getting up to is concerned. And will he be one bit worried about this ‘revelation’? No! The sheer audacity of the man and his Party beggars belief.

    @ Scunterbunnet at 10:21pm ………………….

    A Referendum relating to Scottish Independence (not any other kind of election) should have been open only to Scots who were born and live here. If it had to include at least 400,000 rUK residents who had relocated to Scotland, three quarters of whom voted no, it should have included the 800,000 Scots who had relocated to rUK ….. mostly to find work that they can’t get here in the main due to Westminster ‘policies’ or getting better paid jobs due to having extremely high educational credentials.

    As to anyone who’s been living here for a year being allowed to vote? That would include migrant workers who return to their homeland after a short period of time, foreign and rUK students who leave here when their studies are over and anyone who owns or wishes to purchase a holiday home here? Oh and rUK Miltary who are now based here whilst the Scots have been sent abroad.

    I reckon the whole set up has to be totally scrutinised and amended before we have another Referendum. If not we’ll lose it again as the highest percentage of no votes came from rUK relocators and immigrants from abroad ……. and their numbers are rising.

  112. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    O/T but from a previous thread…

    Anyone going to call Kay (with a 3%) Adams tomorrow to ask her why she has been given hours of program time every morning and her listening figures are so poor?

    Should she be fired?

    Unfortunately, I will be at work. But one of the benefits is I do not have to listen to BBC Radio Scotland.

  113. Col says:

    One thing which really annoyed me was that a Polish work colleague who has racist views regarding immigration in his own country is an immigrant in this country but voted no purely for selfish reasons.
    He claims money for a child that has never set foot in the country which I never
    disagreed with if I’m honest but because the UKOK machine spread lies regarding our EU membership him and many other immigrants voted naw.

    You don’t win much from playing nice in politics sometimes and maybe such a constitutional vote of that magnitude should have been for those living here longer than say 3 years.

  114. Fran says:

    I’ve never done a long post before, so bear with me.

    Something that I have noticed since the referendum, seems to be a grudge against the older generation by younger Yes voters, not all, but a noticeable number. Its as if the younger Yesers are thinking that when the older generation pass on Independence would be assured.

    I’m in my forties and find this uncomfortable. A bit of understanding is required from my and the younger generations as to why the majority of our oaps do not support an Independent Scotland with the hope and aspirations that we do.

    An example I will use is my own mother, who is approaching her mid 80s. She voted No due to “it would be a bad thing to break up Britain”.

    She was a child during WW2 and frequently talks about the Clydebank shipyards and Lanarkshire steelyard bombings, windows shaking with the blasts , air raid sirens, gasmasks, having to que for rations, her brother and sister called up and the country having to stick together to fend off the enemy.

    Education of the working classes was very poor as you could imagine, for they were to have no aspirations, no individual thoughts, they knew their place and were constantly reminded of it. The authorities knew best and no one of authority was to be questioned, doctors, teachers, politicians, even though Churchill was “bad to the working classes”.

    After the war it was the era of ” from the cradle to the grave”, they were all in it together to rebuild the country, the state (Britain) will look after them. The propaganda of “Great” Britain and the Empire was still at its height, Britain was the good in the world, we never committed any atrocities.

    To un-programme this would take more than the two years of the official run-up to the referendum. This is a life time of conditioning not only from the state but from their own parents who fought and scraped just to survive, never mind having a country of their own.

    It was more than just the fear of losing their pensions, it was the fear of losing everything that had kept them safe, that had seen them through the worst of times and had looked after them.

    We are lucky that we live in the information age, that we can click a button and inform ourselves, those who went before us couldn’t.

    We must learn to understand those who voted No and their reasons because some just don’t know anything else and we must educate.

    My mum is now torn in her thoughts whether its a good idea for us to “go it alone” or not. She is in turmoil over the decision she made last September but as I have said to her, she done what she believed was right at the time, even though I think she made the wrong choice for the right reasons.

    That is what we must overcome as campaigners for self determination, no matter the age group or the back ground of the No voter we talk to.

  115. Capella says:

    Sorry to bring down the tone. Tired of not finding a waiting list scandal in Scottish hospitals, Labour now find “hidden waiting lists”. They’re there but we just can’t see them.

    “Scottish Labour has said there should be an independent audit of what it claimed are “hidden waiting lists” in Scottish hospitals.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34826526

    How many other “hidden” scandals are lurking out there?

  116. Tam Jardine says:

    I find the discussion about percentages and timing that has been ongoing since the 19th of September 2014 interesting but ultimately there is only so much we can know.

    The next campaign- the timing of such, the polling beforehand and the result are impossible to know. 60% plus might not be enough as a starting figure… 49% might turn out to be plenty.

    If I am reading Rock correctly he thinks everybody from the middle class who is going to vote yes has already embraced it and no-one else is going to switch… a waste of time. I just can’t accept that- if the message and the evidence presented is strong enough there is no reason why people, even some of those who would currently insist they would not vote for independence under any circumstances- even some of them can be reached.

    Impossible? Lets ask all the staff at HMRC East Kilbride who were lied to. Lets ask any doctors and nurses who’ve just moved up here from England who know nothing about independence yet except what they’ve read in the English press. Ask them now, then in a year.

    Lets ask the pensioners after the Yes campaign go in hard again and again on how low the UK state pension is.

    Lets ask any British identifying no voters from the working class who would never vote for independence… Cameron’s strivers. Lets ask them once the tax credit changes kick in.

    We have absolutely no idea how the future will pan out and are yet to find out how the effects of trident renewal, austerity and the EU referendum will effect support for Indepence.

    Targetting resources is fine but as long as I believe in the message I will believe it deserves to be heard by everyone. Lets get the message worked out; iron out the creases on currency, hammer out a constitution to present as the foundation of the new Scoland and hollow out the unionist parties in May.

    Ignoring the 30% of diehards sounds very sensible but I tell you this- the unionists aren’t ignoring the 41%. No-one is off limits for their message: they are trying to soften us up every day that passes.

  117. Fran says:

    @ Heedtracker 11.47

    Tune Hush Hush, quite appropriate, about unionists clearances.

  118. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi TJ.

    You type a lot of sense, as usual…

  119. Fran says:

    @ Capella

    That’s because they refuse to accept targets, which were higher than under Labour, are generally now being met.

    Are you surprised?

  120. call me dave says:

    Leader Frank McAveety said: “We are simply not able to meet such draconian financial demands whilst maintaining basic and essential services.

    https://archive.is/fxbKX

    ————————————————————–
    Getting his excuses in first but…Wait! Maybe it’ll not be a labour run council after May.

    PS:
    EU warning about Sturgeon swinging the vote danf South!

    https://archive.is/wmfJG

  121. Patrician says:

    @yesindyref2, 10.52

    “But in my opinion nobody is a waste of time talking to, nor any category.”

    Sorry mate but this completely deluded thinking, far too much activists time during indyref was spent trying to convince these dyed-in-the-wool Brits they should vote yes. That 12% “British only” and a significant chunk of the ones who feel “Scottish and British” will never vote Yes. All you will do is waste time that could be spent on persuading someone who is in the “Scottish only” group to vote yes.

    From experience the Brits love it when someone spends hours trying to convert them as it means time is not being spent on someone who might change their mind. This isn’t about rational debate on any of the topics, this is about identity politics and cuts deep into the psyche of the individual.

  122. kininvie says:

    Canvassing in my patch suggests that there has been little overall change since the Referendum. There’s around 15% of SNP voters who do not currently favour Yes (which is about what you expect from GE results), plenty of Labour Yessers, and a wheen of undecideds – slippage both from Yes voters and No voters towards the Undecided position…

    Overall, our results roughly reflect the Rev’s poll, with slightly fewer die hard Nos and slightly more definite Yes

  123. Sandy Henderson says:

    Re Scots & English living in harmony. If English resident in Scotland feel that there is disharmony, well, they have a choice.
    I’ll take you back to a news report some years ago when Grampian TV was on the go.
    A couple from London sold up & moved to Skye. They had bought a residence that was perhaps beyond the means of most people. They more or less thought they had bought a lairdship. Anyway they proved to be so popular that in order to exist, they had to source their day to day needs from over the bridge. Whether they were paying the toll or not, I don’t know.
    Anyhow, they complained to various authorities, higher & higher, but to no avail. They left.
    A local crofter was interviewed at the time & it went something like this. “We don’t mind their coming here but when you are in Rome, you do as the Romans do. If they bliddy well don’t like it, they can bliddy well go back to where they bliddy well came from”.
    They did & were not missed.
    Nor were there any bleeps on the recording.
    (Note the spelling)

  124. Sandy Henderson says:

    Further to voting in Indyref2 & reference to eligability to vote, No.1 criteria must be that in order to cast a vote, said person must have been resident in Scotland (Home address)for a minimum of 16 years on the day of voting. This is based on minimum voting age.
    Might lose out on some YES votes but could put a hell of a hole in the NO vote.

  125. Luigi says:

    It’s worth noting that those people that vote SNP but do not currently support independence are still helping the cause indirectly [shhh – don’t tell them!]. Many of them will be in favour of devomax/ffa, which we know ain’t going to happen, but they still dream.

    Personal confession – I voted SNP quite a few times before I fully committed to supporting independence, so don’t write anyone off. Never say never.

  126. Craig P says:

    Disappointed to see that as many as a quarter of young folk are (small-n) British nationalists. You would hope it would be nearer 15%, corresponding to the ‘British only’ demographic.

    Older folk I am less surprised about. After all, a large proportion will be retiree expats. It would interesting to know – just out of curiosity – if the proportion of Scots-born ‘forever no’ retirees is similar to the proportion of youngsters.

  127. Macart says:

    @Clootie

    RE: Division

    The establishment thrives off division. Their favourite tactic is to ‘redefine’ and ‘own’ terminology which is considered familiar and safe to the populace. They long ago knew that if you had the means of controlling and disseminating the flow of information, you could determine the ‘collective will’ of the majority for them. After all who doesn’t like the idea of unity, of union, a collective will and effort?

    With control of the media comes the perfect mass delivery system for the ‘redefinition’ of the day. You want to bring down a vocal and bothersome opponent? Own the playing field, define the narrative, set the rules yourself and carpet bomb the public your narrative. Civic Nationalists become nats/nazis, Scots become tartan barbarians, good government becomes (and we’ve all heard this one), a socialist utopian fantasy land. Conversely the ‘union’, despite being riddled with geo political conflict, corruption, inept mismanagement, wealth disparity, caste patronage and corporate compromise becomes family and collective effort.

    The same goes if you wish to bring down individual demographics within society or break movements, basically own the narrative and terminology to direct the greater number and have them break your opposition for you.

    People need to look outside of the media and learn to rely on their own life experience to tell them what’s what. They need to have confidence in themselves and their own judgement to build that ‘independent’ state of mind. Most of all they need to realise the ‘state’ doesn’t define them, peoples actions and their choices define who they are.

    You are what you do.

    Real unity, real collective will isn’t the state telling you what that means, its you telling the state.

  128. Nana says:

    @Capella 12.42am

    G A Ponsonby saya

    Scottish Labour’s ‘Hidden Waiting Lists’ claim is a re-hash of its discredited 2012 claim Newsnet debunked here: http://newsnet.scot/?p=107806

  129. Nana says:

    O/T links

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/33623-will-the-scotpound-serve-as-a-successful-example-of-parallel-currency

    https://diasporacardiff.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/british-press-most-hostile-to-refugees-in-europe/

    http://www.welfareweekly.com/david-cameron-under-investigation-over-breach-of-the-ministerial-code/

    There is a poll at ‘a true independent Scotland’ website on whether the Scotland bill should be rejected. For some reason I’m unable to post the link. You should be able find it on google easily enough.

  130. heedtracker says:

    “We don’t mind their coming here but when you are in Rome, you do as the Romans do. If they bliddy well don’t like it, they can bliddy well go back to where they bliddy well came from”.
    They did & were not missed.”

    You could sell that T shirt pretty much anywhere in the world.

  131. Grouse Beater says:

    Nana: “There is a poll at ‘a true independent Scotland’ website on whether the Scotland bill should be rejected”

    The argument for rejection: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2oL

  132. caz-m says:

    call me dave 1.01am

    Re: The EU Referendum.

    It looks like we’ve been rumbled. The English have found out about our secret plan regarding Scotland voting to stay in the EU and England voting to leave.

    https://archive.is/wmfJG

  133. Achnababan says:

    OMT but regarding the scots currency.

    I was in Schiphol airport the other after a long and tiring flight back from the far east and was fair delighted to see, amongst all the other European currencies accepted by the cafe was indeed the Scots pound as identified by a wee saltire next to £ sign.

    Do the Dutch know something we dont?

  134. John Young says:

    Sadly many of our young folk still need to head South for work reasons.

    Before your child heads to England explain to them fully why he/she should keep their vote registered at your address in Scotland.

  135. Fiona says:

    Well said, Macart.

  136. Brian Powell says:

    caz-m

    Ah, the ‘sources’, like the famous ‘spokesman’ we kept hearing about during the Ref, and since.

    Always anti-SNP.

    The implication being that Middle England was going to vote to stay in, then found that was the intention of the Scots and so for some wonky reason voted to come out.

    Labour No politicians and voters stuck us with this crumby arrangement.

    Of course Cameron, and others, seem to be ignoring Northern Ireland and the problems an exit could cause there.

  137. Colin Church says:

    Call Kaye. Clicks off switch after two callers.
    Stop the refugees. Revise the Qu’ran wording. FFS.

  138. Nana says:

    Sorry for double posts, thought first lot had disappeared.

    Anyhow on the Scottish currency. Before the referendum there was an article regarding the scots£, I think it may have been in the Japan times. If I recall correctly the article was on how the scot£ was doing better than the Bank of England£. I have searched and can’t find it in my archives. So does anyone remember this?

    Found this while trawling…

    http://londonprogressivejournal.com/article/view/1798/why-not-create-a-scottish-pound-and-adopt-investment-credit-economics-to-scotlands-benefit

  139. Macart @ 7.04.
    Very well explained Mac. I’ve been beating the “media” drum for a long while because I believe they are the real enemy, as they are largely controlled by the establishment, and of course they will do their bidding, especially the state broadcaster, the B.B.C.
    The incompetence of our political opponents is, in most cases, hidden from the electorate, by a compliant M.S.M who do Westminster’s work for them, while pretending to state facts which are nothing more than a press release from one of the unionist parties.
    I was criticised for using the term “brainwashing”, but I really do believe that is what has occurred for over three hundred years, and that is why we have so many amongst us reluctant to take the leap into independence.
    However, with the so-called “broad shoulders” of the U.K appearing to sag somewhat with recent events resulting in people losing their jobs when they were promised the exact opposite, I can only hope that people who were taken in by the false promises of the unionists have now seen the light, and come the next referendum will help make us an independent nation.

  140. Lollysmum says:

    Nana

    Immediately after you posted about a missing link at 8.21 I submitted a post giving the link for A True Independent Scot. That post still hasn’t appeared an hour later.

  141. louis.b.argyll says:

    Ooh, a real fascist on R Scotland right now.
    Says all Muslims are a threat…
    The man is a fool.
    Said he was a Christian, but not willing to love or even understand his imagined enemy.

  142. Capella says:

    @ Nana
    Just voted on that poll:
    SHOULD THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT REJECT THE SCOTLAND BILL?
    Yes is at 96%

  143. John H. says:

    I had no idea that only three weeks residency was required to vote in the IndyRef last year. I had presumed that it would be at least six months. You live and learn. We have a holiday home in the west highlands, and there are many holiday homes in the area, mostly owned by English people who live there for only a few weeks of the year.

    I know some of these people, and nice though they are, they are all Brits, and will not be persuaded to change. It depresses me that these people were allowed to help decide the fate of my country last year. Hopefully, the SG has the power and the will to change the system.

  144. Nana says:

    @Lollysmum

    It’s all very strange, I replied to Macart last evening around 10pm and added the link. Did not post. Tried again about 30 mins later sill nothing.

    That is why I decided this morning to alert folks about the poll, wonder if it’s being blocked by the usual suspects? Tin foil hat now on head!

  145. Lollysmum says:

    Nana
    Is this what you were looking for? Scot £ gets a boost courtesy of Hong Kong money market from August 2014

    http://www.weourselves.com/scottish-pound-now-worth-more-than-the-english-pound/

  146. Nana says:

    @Capella

    That’s good, I don’t remember what it was at when I voted last evening. I’m glad people are seeing my post at 8.21 as the actual link refused to post.

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/scotland/753319/video-alex-salmond-pays-tribute-french-paris-attacks/

  147. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Ken Mair@8.26

    Excellent comment Ken.

    Touched on a lot of relevent points.

    Well written and thought provoking.

    Nice one.

  148. Clootie says:

    Government policy & Laws are passed by Politicians
    Politicians are elected by people
    people are influenced by public opinion
    public opinion is formed by the media
    the media content is controlled by a handful of neoliberals

    He who controls the media determines the government

    ….up until now! The internet is rocking the boat.

  149. Nana says:

    @Lollsmum

    Thank you Lollysmum.

    Posters on this site are really amazing, & that link is certainly leading to what I was looking for.
    The article I read gave details on why the scot£ was strong and what it meant for an independent Scotland.

    I will look again later.
    Meanwhile I know there are folks on here who will do the same.

  150. Lollysmum says:

    Nana
    If you look at the photo on that site it shows Scot £ as worth 11.50 English £ as 10.50 I’m guessing that’s in Hong Kong dollars

  151. Robert Kerr says:

    test

  152. Robert Peffers says:

    @Valerie says: 15 November, 2015 at 6:01 pm:

    ” … and she loves Betty Windsor, who I called a benefits scrounger.”.

    Who is this Betty Windsor person?, Valerie? Do you perhaps mean Elizabeth II, of the Royal dynasty : –
    Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but further checking will trace that as :-
    Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (a branch of the House of Wettin)

    Which, upon even more digging throws up this: –
    Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha

    all very traditional English/British names –
    Aye!
    Richt!

    Our lords and masters are basically Germans.

    “There is a lot of ignorance out there”

    Ain’t that the truth?

    Just reading this morning that 64% of the people of North England have no knowledge of what is meant by the term, “Northern Powerhouse”. A BBC survey shows 44% had never heard the term and 20% of them had heard the term but knew nothing about it.

  153. Nana says:

    O/T

    Labour’s big day out…tax credit leafletting

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKchy6YtflQ&feature=youtu.be

  154. Dan Huil says:

    We mustn’t forget the arrogant and ignorant Westminster unionist factor. It could do the job for us.

  155. heedtracker says:

    O/T but

    Sir Daniel of LibDem unionist toryboy world in Scotland, a couple of years ago-

    “Danny Alexander attacks average speed camera plan for danger road
    Danny Alexander, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, has delivered a withering attack on the SNP’s decision to install average speed cameras on Scotland’s most dangerous road.”

    Today

    “AVERAGE A9 speed cameras have helped cut deaths on the A9 to zero this summer for first time since 1992.

    However, new figures showed speeding is creeping up again.

    A death-free summer on the A9 is a great result and one the IAM hope can sustained all year round
    Neil Greig”

    Hootsman lurches further and further right but cant hide facts. Sir Daniel not asked to comment.

    Vote ALL unionists out of Scotland next May.

  156. Lollysmum says:

    Nana
    I’ve just tried linking that poll page again but it’s still not appearing.That’s 3 times I’ve tried it this morning.

    Do you think someone out there doesn’t want anyone to know of it’s existence? 😉

  157. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘I’ve got nothing to hide…’ says CallKaye caller.

    Okay, let’s have total surveillance.

    Total.

    Let’s have livestreams of BBC editorial meetings.

  158. Breeks says:

    I find it difficult to attach any great significance to numbers and percentages. I’ve been lied to much to often to listen.

    A much more important issue for me personally is understanding the extent to which the largely unchallenged Unionist propaganda is influencing the issue.

    I fail to grasp how the momentum for a YES vote couldn’t overturn a No majority which couldn’t even field a second 11 to turn up at their events. Better Together was one embarrassing fart after another, and at no time from start to finish could ANY unionist spokesperson articulate any cohesive argument for why the Union should exist.

    I don’t understand how only one side can turn up for battle and yet walk away in defeat.

    The only answer I can speculate on, and it is speculation because I do not understand their thinking, is a residual fondness for Great Britain in our silent majority which escaped my attention growing up in Scotland, or something else, the unholy art of black propaganda.

    In truth, I think the only facet of Unionism which was difficult to contest was their grip over broadcast media, and their capacity to manipulate, and undermine, the real agenda. That is where we lost, and where our YES advocates were consistently outplayed, and badly outplayed.

    This issue is the most central to the failure of the YES campaign, and the whole monstrous behemoth of Unionist broadcasting and media remains intact and emboldened by its proven success. It is stronger even now than it was.

    We need leadership, and effective leadership to outmanoeuvre this grotesque affront to our democracy and let the next referendum campaign be a debate about the mechanisms of sovereign power, not the banal absurdity and ephemeral irrelevance of whether we use the pound coin as currency.

  159. The Flamester says:

    Re Scots Currency – I was passing through Dubai airport in 2010 and they accepted my Scottish Fiver in Irish pub – it wasn’t a big deal – they took it and gave me change back. Also Channel Islands accept Scottish currency and have done so for decades.

  160. Robert Peffers says:

    cearc says: 15 November, 2015 at 6:35 pm:

    “It is not so much a matter of which groups to target but it is down to individuals talking to individuals wherever you find them.”

    I’ve been at this game for a very long time and I’m old, tired and running out of steam now. Facts, though, are still facts and one fact is that there are people out there with minds so tightly closed there is no way to open their minds, even just enough to let a little light in.

    They do not listen and thus cannot be reached. If they do not know, and understand, the policies of their chosen party to vote for, what hope is there they will know and understand those of another?

  161. Nana says:

    @Lollysmum

    That’s another great find. Unless my mind is playing tricks on me [and that’s a possibility] the one I read was very specific on ‘floating’ currencies and the strength our economy.
    To be honest Lollysmum the terms I’m looking for are escaping me right now. Something along the lines of ‘parity’ and ‘acceptance’ whatever all that actually means.
    Economics and figures not my field by any means, not got the brain power!

  162. Luigi says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    16 November, 2015 at 10:52 am

    cearc says: 15 November, 2015 at 6:35 pm:

    “It is not so much a matter of which groups to target but it is down to individuals talking to individuals wherever you find them.”

    I’ve been at this game for a very long time and I’m old, tired and running out of steam now. Facts, though, are still facts and one fact is that there are people out there with minds so tightly closed there is no way to open their minds, even just enough to let a little light in.

    They do not listen and thus cannot be reached. If they do not know, and understand, the policies of their chosen party to vote for, what hope is there they will know and understand those of another?

    Och Robert, you are having a wee rant this morning. You are usually so positive. Of course we are dealing with people’s belief systems here, and in such cases inconvenient truths and “facts” tend to be ignored – for as long as possible. As you know, we just keep chipping away, challenging their belief in the union and eventually the penny drops – at least for some of them. And as we already achieved 45% last year, we don’t need tpo persuade many of them to change sides, only a few. We can do this. It ain’t easy, it ain’t fast, but it is doable.

  163. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chitterinlicht says: 15 November, 2015 at 7:18 pm

    “It would not surprise me if as people get older they are more inclined to vote no. It may not be a generational thing”.

    I’ve been pointing that fact out on this forum for a long time, Chitterinlicht.

    And it is indeed a proven fact. You need only look at the political careers of, for example, Alistair Darling as proof of that fact.

    There are photos/videos of Darling as a young man marching while holding one pole of a banner for far left parties. Yet there he is now having fronted the NO campaign and looking forward to his place in the HoL. A classic move from left to right.

  164. bobajock says:

    I am not capable of being rational in any debate about Yes/No anymore. I was once heavily Labour, but my mind was changed over a much longer period than even the #indyref time.

    Perhaps I am the non-smoker after a lifetime of 40-a-day, but its the 40-a-day people who are the least malleable to change.

    I wish I could identify the ‘lightbulb’ moment when it was so bloody obvious that independence was right. I would bottle it and run around spraying the perfume of hope everywhere.

  165. John Young says:

    OT. Interesting line in a comment from a DMcC under a Herald article re Cameron’s behavior before the Vote:

    The UK is bankrupt it secures loans because it has the asset of oil regardless of present low price had it lost oil and its third biggest export Whisky it was in financial meltdown

    Both the Irish and French embassies, as they put plans in place for Scottish independence, reportedly received a memo informing them ” under no circumstances will Scotland be allowed to leave”

  166. starlaw says:

    Darling turning from left to right had nothing to do with neither age nor creed. Darling went for whatever advanced Darling.

  167. mealer says:

    I understand the advantages of concentrating our efforts in areas where votes are easiest got.I am also very well aware of the psychological impact a big canvassing effort has on a Tory/No leaning area.Get on their doorstep.Let them know we’re not going away.Give them a big smile and tell them only the SNP will stand up for Scotland.They know it to be true and it demoralises them.It reinforces the idea of inevitability.Also,and this is very important,it galvanises those SNP/Yes supporters who do live in middle class areas.We need a comprehensive up to date canvass of every address in the country before we think of holding another referendum.

  168. Jack Murphy says:

    Nana said on 15 November, 2015 at 9:22 pm
    “Cameron said he was staying out of the referendum debate, said it was a matter for the Scottish people.
    Well we did know he was running project fear, but here’s the proof”.

    https://archive.is/frv3Z

    I’m shocked at the number of meetings AND the number of organisations involved with Cameron pre-referendum in the Archived link.
    Yes—-I remember Cameron repeatedly saying the Referendum was for the people in Scotland and he wouldn’t interfere !!
    Never trust the Tories—–Blue or Red. 🙁

  169. msean says:

    If that is true,then it sounds a bit like occupation,bit of the old empire mentality.

  170. sensibledave says:

    The Rev reflects what I have been saying on here for a while now. IMHO (and I do find it hard to do humble), the approach of Wings is very confused.

    As a “for instance”, I am not an opponent of Scottish Independence, but most commenters on here refuse to believe me and prefer to address me, amongst other names as, Britnat, UKOK, Scot Hater, etc. The tone of address is usually, at best, dismissive, at worst, bordering on racist (modified usually by some platitude along the line of – its not the English we hate, its people that vote Tory).

    As I have said before, the majority of people I know are ambivalent on the subject of Scottish Independence and yet bucket loads of invective is cast at some sort of stereotyped summation of what constitutes “the English”.

    Anyone that expresses a view on here that they don’t favour Scottish Independence (i.e. a potential target conversion) will be dealt with severely and be made very unwelcome.

    My own opinion, which I know you are desperate to hear, is that somehow, you need to separate the SNP politics from Scottish Independence. As is the case in any politics, people have a range of views on economic and political policy that their preferred government should pursue. In Scotland though, if you want Independence – then you can be reasonably sure that you will also know that you will get SNP politics and economic policy as a result. And, that, I would argue is the biggest barrier.

    Overcome that hurdle and Independence should be a shoe-in.

  171. Muscleguy says:

    @Kenny

    As a RIC person here in the Yes City, thanks, but there is still more to do. We did not convince everyone, still more to do and there are lots of potential voters unconvinced in other cities too.

    A problem that will need to be fixed next time and I will keep banging on about this is the get out the vote campaign, run by the then largely middle class SNP, pretty much missed the schemes. First thing when the service button on the entry doors to the multis were still working (off at 12noon) an entire carload of us were packed off to a leafy suburb of detached houses with long long drives and multiple cars in those drives. People who did not need to be encouraged to come out. Lots of pointless trudging up and down those drives. While multis all over the city, large and small, were untouched.

    I’m convinced that had we got the schemes to the polling stations at least 65% of Dundonians would have voted Aye and the figures fro other cities would have been much improved. We might not have prevailed, but the gap would have been much closer. We still need a tipping point in Central Belt towns such as Falkirk as well as Edinburgh and Aberdeen, Perth, Stirling (Inverness City reportedly voted Yes).

    We need to fix this for next time as well as change minds. We cannot win unless we get ALL of our vote out.

    A RIC colleague tells a rueful story of being chased down a close by a druggie, who it turned out was simply desperate for voter registration forms for himself and his girlfriend. The question is: did anyone chap their door and remind them to vote?

  172. heedtracker says:

    In Scotland though, if you want Independence – then you can be reasonably sure that you will also know that you will get SNP politics and economic policy as a result. And, that, I would argue is the biggest barrier

    Morning sensibledave 3? thing is sensible3, PR parliaments like Holyrood are pretty democratic as in the majority get what the majority want. So that’s it really sensible.

    Its the primary reason England/UK will never have a PR Westminster or shake of the House of Troughers, it will be the end of toryboy world in England.

    Its also making Brexit interesting sensibledave 3. EU membership clearly takes at least some power off of toryboy world in Enland, so hard line toryboys want out of it all. But the EU also pumps a lot of money into toryboy pockets, so what a to do sensibledave 3, what an interesting toryboy conundrum.

    Maybe toryboy UKOK campers should Project Fear the EU, make Brussels change democratic power stuff, but keep the EU money flowing into toryboy pockets?

    Howsabout an EU House of Lords, entirely unelected, stuffed with right, further right and then fake lefties like our ridiculous Labour lords?

  173. I know I have posted this before but I think that only people who are born and live in Scotland should be allowed to vote in ref.,2 i mean people from outside may have decided to live here but they are not Scottish and that’s a fact ,they should not be able to turn the vote of the native people of Scotland against them it cannot be justified ever , and of have 4 grand children that I love dearly and they are all English so I am not anti.,English

  174. Paula Rose says:

    Good to see that the SNP is getting on with running the country until we are independent and can then have a proper debate about the way forward.

  175. One_Scot says:

    ‘It would not surprise me if as people get older they are more inclined to vote no. It may not be a generational thing’.

    “I’ve been pointing that fact out on this forum for a long time, Chitterinlicht.”‘

    Robert, not sure you can use Alistair Darling as a typical example of an old age pensioner to compare with hundreds of thousands of hard pressed pensioners across Scotland struggling to make ends meet.

  176. mealer says:

    sensibledave 11.36
    I get what you’re saying,but the SNP are polling well ahead of Yes.I don’t think they’re a hinderance.The Independence movement has to be,and is,a lot bigger than the SNP though.It is a broad cultural and social movement of which the SNP is the main political spearhead.Support has grown massively over recent years and continues to grow.I agree with you about ambivalence to Scottish independence in England.It is very apparent among Tory back benchers and this is important.They aren’t going to fight tooth and nail to save the union when their constituents start telling them to tell the scots to do one.

  177. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    sensibledave at 11.36

    Nice try.

    I assume the SNP support is sitting at about 60% because of those unpopular policies then

  178. muttley79 says:

    Anybody read the Herald today? It seems to be going in a ever right wing direction. One article is suggesting that fear of the SNP in England will affect the EU referendum result there! David Torrance’s column is appalling as well. His comments about Alf Garnett in particular are eye bleedingly bad.

  179. ArtyHetty says:

    Re; John Young@11.13am

    O/T

    Yep, the oil, worthless if Scotland had been, rightfully, able to keep the revenues accrued over the past 30 odd years. Funnily enough, there must be a bit of it left, (we all know there is rather a lot left) because planning applications have been or are being submitted to open up a vast Barite mine in Aberfeldy. Barite is used in the extraction of oil and gas, mostly. The ebc article said that it is enough to last for 50 years and is a huge bonus for the, yes that’s right, the ukok’s oil and gas industry!

    I am really glad we are not a gold rich country, because mining for that causes all manner of environmental destruction. Let’s hope what the companies say that it will cause minimal damage, is true, but er why would anyone believe a huge profit making company who want to rip up the Scottish countryside.

    Oh and ebc said that a few jobs, 50, will be made available for ‘local’ people and my god that is a huge bonus because the area only has, tourism. Well, I guess when the countryside is ripped up, the tourists will be going elsewhere, so those 50 jobs will definitely be needed to prop up the local economy.

    Strangely, most mines devastate the land, also poisoning the rivers, and of course the ‘local’ areas with huge mines are usually plunged into poverty.

    I do wish notsosensible daves would stop posting here, they are sooo boring, but maybe that’s the point.

  180. msean says:

    If you are inferring that the snp would definitely run an independent Scotland,you are wrong. I am not a member,but even I can see they are the definition of a broad church.

    Anyway,an independent Scotland would be run by whoever the people elect,you never know,they might choose Labour as it would be separated from London Labour and thinks for itself. I would even accept a tory government as we would have elected it ourselves (unlikely though).

    You don’t come across as any kind of independence supporter,but as a someone trying to dishearten independence leaning folk. I also don’t actually know anyone who hates the English,don’t confuse sporting rivalry and competitiveness with hate.

  181. galamcennalath says:

    “Brick walls and open doors”

    I believe there are more doors than walls and the route to success is to work on every demographic group, everyone.

    Some suggestions

    1) Tackle the low turn out in Yes areas. Perhaps one for the RIC. No areas had often 90%, Yes areas could be low 70s. Be prepared to encourage postal voting in Yes areas to get votes up. (yea, all the misgivings about postal voting needs attention too)

    2) One for the SNP and SG. Commit to getting state pensions in an indy Scotland up to the EU best, not the average. Should our ‘fairer Scotland’ not target specifically poverty in the elderly?

    3) Women of Indy need a lot of backing. Crowd funding of events and literature to specifically target wavering women.

    4) Highlight WM’s attack on renewables and their commitment to building nuclear. Get clean green minded middle class people onboard, perhaps from LibDems?

    5) Get trade unions onboard. They still seem attached to Labour. Prise them away from the Red Tories!

  182. ArtyHetty says:

    re; blairpaterson@11.51am

    Well I would have hated to not have had a vote, and I am from NE England. Lived here for 26 years and feel more Scottish than English, in fact in NE England, we never felt ‘English’.

    All of my friends from England voted yes, many of my Scottish friends and all the neighbours, voted no. Perhaps we could just not allow people not actually living in Scotland, to vote in an Indy ref, but, did some not just pop up to vote, have second homes?

  183. Capella says:

    @ Nana @ Lollysmum
    I got to the poll by googling “a true independent Scotland” (without quotation marks) which brings up a link to

    atrueindependentscotland.com/

    which has a link to “polls” down the right hand side.

    But there is something odd about the web address. I had to add a paragraph break to stop it adding “a link to” to the web address. No idea why that was happening. So let’s see if this posts OK!

  184. I am not surprised by the percentage who would never support Scottish independence, they are a lost cause.

    They are the die hards who consider themselves to be
    proud Scots but, and will never contemplate not be governed by Westminster.

    They will peddle any excuse they can dream up to justify their opposition to Scotland gaining its independence.

    There would also have been some of the people who came from England or from overseas and view Scotland simply as a region of England

    They rather remind me of reading about the Russians who had settled and lived in the Baltic states and who were totally opposed the Baltic gaining their independence from the soviet union.

    As for Cameron’s promise not to get involved in the independence referendum because it was a decision for the people of Scotland alone to make.

    Though I still can’t believe how could anyone believed that charlatan and coward, he did all he could to encourage leaders of other countries to speak out against Scottish Independence.

    I never trusted Cameron as far as I could throw him and that’s absolutely not all!

  185. The Isolator says:

    Sensible Dave says@

    Wtf??Are you suggesting that had we not voted for an SNP government at Holyrood and not returned 56 MPs to Westmimster we would be well on the way to an Independent Scotland?Wow just wow

  186. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I always enjoy Robert Peffers’ lectures on Scottish/British political history. I just wonder, sometimes, why the SNP does not draw more attention to the Act of Union and how England has managed to make it appear more of a take-over than a Union.

    I refer in this instance, however, to his wee post earlier today about the Royal Family’s Germanic family name, with all those hyphens.

    We perhaps ought to make more of the fact, “the Germans”, as I believe the Royal Family is still referred to by some of the older Highland dynasties, are, in-fact, members of the Scottish Diaspora.

    As I understand it, George I, then “Elector of Hanover” (apparently something to do with having a vote when it came to who was Holy Roman Emperor or something), was the first eligible Protestant they could find to take the throne of the United Kingdom following the death of Queen Anne.

    He (George I) owed his claim to the throne, to the fact his mother was James VI and I’s grand-daughter, Elizabeth of Hanover.

    Therefore, the current Royal Family is actually more-Scottish than English. Perhaps someone ought to give Lillibet Mountbatten-Windsor and her family a lecture on family history.

  187. Ruby says:

    sensibledave

    A few questions for you today.

    1 What constitutes “the English”?
    2 Why do you post on Wings?
    3 Why should anyone take your views into consideration?
    4 Do you have a victim mentality?
    5 Do you get a good laugh when posters on Wings get wound up by your arrogance?
    6 Are you just a wind-up merchant who is best ignored?
    7 Are you lonely? Do you live in a part of England where nobody speaks to one another?
    8 Will you thank me for asking you all these questions giving you the opportunity to post another mile long post telling us all about yourself?
    9 Will you be annoyed if I don’t read your reply?

  188. heedtracker says:

    None of my English friends and familly voted YES. My street of 7 houses in Aberdeen has 5 English families, moved here on and off for 25 years. Does it makes any difference? If youre on the electoral register in Scotland, you get a vote. Anything else won’t work.

    In England people I know really well were pretty disinterested in Scotland. All of them hated Alex Salmond as hard as the BBC told them but otherwise, not much concern. Until that is, until the last week of the referendum campaign and real anger popped up. It got to the point where you were sensible to just go along with the “who the hell do they think are anyway” anger but above all else, Scottish independence would be bad news for a, ot of giant English borrowing costs, from HS2, Heathrow expansion, Crossrail, Nukes and more personally, mortgages and a lot of English middle classes have giant mortgages. It’s their cultural norm.

    So it’s not all British nationalism but English pragmatism. It aint broke for England, don’t fix it, and keep on telling the Scots we’re Bettertoghetbetter forever and ever, because England really is.

  189. Robert Kerr says:

    @Lollysmum and nana

    I tried variations on the URL re poll and all were blocked from this site when I tried to post them.

    Then I posted “test” which worked.

    Looks like we are blocked from True Independent Scotland but Google isn’t.

  190. Capella says:

    @Ruby
    Good tip – thanks. Smiley thing.

    I suspect the problem is connected to akismet rejecting links like youtube’s if you leave the http:// bit in. atruindependentscotland.com has no http:// prefix so must have somthing else which possibly upsets akismet.

  191. Bill Fraser says:

    We will all be discussing this topic for months,or even years,but I cannot imagine another referendum being beaten.The last one was lost due to the scare stories re pensions,banks,businesses moving down to England etc.People will not
    be so gullible or naive .

  192. Dr Jim says:

    Independence isn’t all about the SNP they keep telling us now, vote for any Independence party they say,what difference does it make,

    Well that’s an easy question with an even easier answer
    Why would we want to change the biggest thorn in the Westminster side we’ve ever had to something which would probably be a lot less effective or efficient, that is exactly what the Yoons would love us to do, divide and fracture

    If you’ve got a big hammer to hit someone with, why change to a bunch of little ones

    Keep voting SNP/SNP till they’re sick of the sight of us, and we win

  193. cirsium says:

    O/T great links as always Nana (8.46). The interesting Canary article on the G20 had a link to a Pepe Escobar post which did not work.

    I think of Pepe Escobar as the Wee Ginger Dug of the international fifth estate. Here is one of his October posts as a taster http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/russia-makes-it-rainy-days-would-be-sultan-erdogan-and-americas-geopolitical-jihadi-tools

  194. gus1940 says:

    Re Broadcasting is it not the case that without having achieved Independence there is not a hope in hell of WM devolving broadcasting to Holyrood.

    In that case should we not be considering the Cable/Satellite/Freeview route.

    Does anybody know what % of households in Scotland have Cable, Satellite or Freeview? I’m a bit short of understanding the mechanics of Freeview so let’s concentrate on Cable & Satellite.

    What are the mechanics/laws/rules/ costs of setting up such a channel?

    Do the channel operators pay Sky or Virgin to take their channels or is it the other way round? What are the numbers for this?

    I have the Virgin XL Package which offers countless channels many of which are of minority interest so I don’t think the actual cost of getting on air can be enormous.

    The main cost will be the provisiuon of Content. Obviously we would want to emphasise News and Current Affairs with particular attention being given to combating the lies excreted by our wonderful current Broadcast and Print media. Other content would probably have to be bought in obviously concentrating on subjects relevant to Scotland.

    Obvious sources would be the back library of The BBC and STV in particular that content which they are either not interested in showing or are not prepared to show for their own evil political reasons.

    Let’s start with ‘The Cheviot, The Stag and The Black Black Oil’ and ‘Diommhair’ (there is little chance of PQ ever showing them on BBC Scotland but would they be prepared to allow their transmission on our little channel?).

    STV’s series of ‘Scotland The Lie of The Land’ (I think that was the title) which was an aerial tour of the country and the old Black and White and later Para Handy series come to mind.

    There must be loads of archive program material which the terrestrial channels have no interest in broadcasting.

    Let’s have a look at the practicalities of setting up a Cable/Satellite Channel in particular as regards costs and sources of funding.

  195. Brian Powell says:

    Poor Alex Bell, former adviser in SNP, puts out a stream of ‘the SNP is broken’ articles and has a herd of Unionists retweeting his stuff.

    I’d have thought he’d be more aware.

  196. heedtracker says:

    Daily Politics BBC 2 TV lunchtime on in background, RAF should bomb ISIS/Syria or not, debate?

    Not one 3rd party SNP MP involved in any BBC way whatsoever, everything about London. Another week of England only BBC kicks off.

  197. Arty Hetty the fact is your are not Scottish so you,should,not be able to vote in Scotland whether you voted yes or no does not matter the decision should be for,the Scots alone after all it is their country they say that 70to80 per cent of in comers voted no and that swung the vote how can that be right ?no I stick by my guns the vote for ind., 2should be for Scots who are born and live in Scotland and them alone

  198. Grouse Beater says:

    Dippy Dave:“the approach of Wings is very confused.

    Run for cover! Dippy has taken on Wings – again!

    (And we’ve just cleaned the walls from the last occasion.)

  199. Chic McGregor says:

    That reminds me, new series of The Bridge starting soon.

  200. Chris Baxter says:

    @InsensibleDave

    “shoe-in”

    The proper spelling is “shoo-in”.

    The rest of your post is pish as well.

  201. Capella says:

    “The task facing the Scottish independence movement is to change the minds of just 6% of Scots.”

    That is a very upbeat message. The question is, how to defeat the hostile media? The WoS polls seem to suggest that most Scots are indifferent to the TV and newspapers. How then are their opinions formed?

    Some commenteers have said that the sheer slog of doorstep canvassing is what decides the issue. Maybe that counters the media lies to some extent.

    But solving the currency and financial fears would also help voters decide. Here’s a short video on a digital Scots currency. 6:29 mins
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALgGsrTQu8

  202. mealer says:

    The issue of who gets to vote has been discussed on here many times before.There has to be a residency qualification.I personally think that period of residency should lie somewhere between a few months and a few years.Day trippers shouldn’t get a vote.People who have lived here for years certainly should.

  203. Robert Peffers says:

    I read this morning the MPs on the Scottish Affairs Committee have pledged to, “regularly”, travel to Scotland, (no doubt at our expense), to challenge the perception that, “Westminster is too remote from Scotland”. This follows an enquiry of the above committee into its own work.

    All that idiotic decision does is confirm that these numpties still just don’t get it and they never will. They could hold it in Outer Mongolia but as long as it is composed of non-Scots, with a membership not elected by Scots, from a government not mandated by Scots in Scotland and a with a 100% unionist membership it is as relevant to Scotland as a committee of Halal Butchers ruling on Animal Rights in a Halal slaughter house in a Muslim Country..

    http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/03/halal-slaughtermen-filmed-abusing-animals-in-abbatoir-5047056/

  204. Onwards says:

    @sensibledave,

    “if you want Independence – then you can be reasonably sure that you will also know that you will get SNP politics and economic policy as a result. And, that, I would argue is the biggest barrier.”

    I think there was a valid argument for the SNP promising to disband or split after independence. After all, their main objective would have been achieved.

    But I also think people understand that Tory and Labour parties would change after independence, as they adapted to the new reality. There would be ‘genuine’ Scottish Labour or Scottish Tory parties that people could vote for.

  205. Grouse Beater says:

    Chic: “new series of The Bridge starting soon.”

    Will watch! No drama on BBC compares, all soap variations. I mean, how many murders can Jersey sustain before it attracts a blockade? Winter needs more of ‘Montalbano’.

  206. cirsium says:

    good posts on what we have to do in IndyRef2, Muscleguy (11.49) and galamcennalath (12.07).

    I agree we need to tackle the low turn out in Yes areas. One of the ways might be to switch the day to a Sunday. Many European countries vote on Sundays.

    I also think that postal voting should be withdrawn. It is wide open to abuse and so, is not used in most European countries.

    The YES campaign was very successful in encouraging people to register to vote. A substantial number of voters seem to have dropped of the Voting Roll since the new method of registration was introduced so a voter registration campaign might have to be run again.

  207. Paula Rose says:

    Once we’re independent I’m setting up the Right Green Party.

  208. Foonurt says:

    Wurr no fur onnae mair ah yoan shite, fae thame sooth ah yoan boardurr.

    Wae waant tae bae oot, ah thoan leein, pauchlin basturts’ weiyz.

    Fur noo, ah bit ae ah daunnurr. Bit dauddle, bit shair.

  209. Grouse Beater says:

    I’m setting up the Right Green Party.

    Keep the Right Green Party, Pure Brilliant White!

  210. Les Wilson says:

    mealer says:
    I think you are right, but for 5 years.

  211. heedtracker says:

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/scotland-blog/2015/nov/16/glasgow-could-get-greener-by-reclaiming-its-motorways

    Anything but the Scotland Bill.

    Misinform, disinform, slander and lie, bury bad news. Its the UKOK way.

  212. Papadox says:

    IMHO
    The problem with the elderly regarding independence is FEAR and the subliminal brainwashing we were subjected to in the first half of the 20 century. They believe Westminster hands them out their pension and benefits from some big cupboard full of money, out of the goodness of their hearts. If we gain independence they believe the English bosses will shut the big cupboard and as we have been telt for 300+ years “we’re to wee, poor, stupit” we need big rich powerful Engerland to look after us numpties.

    And the brainwashing goes on via EBC MSM etc. Fear is the Establishments weapon of choice and they certainly don’t hold back using it. Until facts and honesty get through to the majority then we will struggle to get a majority, but get it we will.

    The misguided frightened old yins will be overcome or see the light. Time is on Scotlands side it sure as hell ain’t on mine. FREEDOM!

  213. rongorongo says:

    It would be interesting to track the size of the “never ever” faction over time. Over the last few years support for Yes has won over an additional – what – 25% of the population. I’d be very surprised if that figure came totally from people who had professed themselves as being open to influence.

  214. Les Wilson says:

    gus1940 says:

    The big problem with that is Westminster will pressure any system that would allow it. They would drop the idea due to that. Good idea if it could be made to work, however I do not trust that Westminster would not impede it.

  215. Petra says:

    @ Macart says at 7:04 am …. Great insightful post Macart.

    @ John H. says at 9:47 am ”I had no idea that only three weeks residency was required to vote in the IndyRef last year. I had presumed that it would be at least six months.”

    John the criteria at that time was that you had to prove (to the Electoral Register) that you were living in Scotland (say renting a flat / staying with a relative) prior to the Referendum to register to vote. Last date for registering was midnight 2/09/2014 (16 days to go).

    @ Socrates MacSporran at 12:17pm says ”As I understand it, George I, then “Elector of Hanover” (apparently something to do with having a vote when it came to who was Holy Roman Emperor or something), was the first eligible Protestant they could find to take the throne of the United Kingdom following the death of Queen Anne.”

    And Socrates IF I’ve got this right they dismissed around 50 plus Roman Catholics to eventually get ‘to’ him. It would make you laugh (or cry). Every time I look at members of the Royal Family I see a bunch of charlatans who are (very) happily ruling the roost. I was pleased to hear that India wanted the Koh-I-Noor diamond returned to them, although I see that Cameron is saying no to that. Saying no because the Crown jewels would diminish dramatically if they had to hand them back to every Colony (and the Romanovs / Russia) that they robbed blind over time. How Queenie et al can ponce about with crowns on their head, jewels on necks, wrists and fingers, that were acquired through utter mayhem and bloodshed I’ll never know. Better Together right enough!

    @ Alex Beveridge says at 9:32 am ”I’ve been beating the “media” drum for a long while because I believe they are the real enemy, as they are largely controlled by the establishment, and of course they will do their bidding, especially the state …….. I was criticised for using the term “brainwashing”, but I really do believe that is what has occurred for over three hundred years, and that is why we have so many amongst us reluctant to take the leap into independence.”

    That’s it in a nutshell Alex. We all know that many Scots, young and old, believe that we are too poor, wee and stupid to run our own country. An ingrained belief due to being brainwashed by the Media, day in day out, month after month and year after year. I’ve pointed out that a large percentage of foreign migrants voted no to Independence. In many cases I would imagine this was due to being threatened with expulsion from an Independent Scotland and I’m sure of this (esp. in some Polish cases) because I know some of the individuals personally – threatened by Labour activists. This was reinforced with media Armageddon and I suppose the language barrier in some cases / lack of understanding of the whole situation didn’t help.

    If we had BROADCASTING devolved we could truly enlighten many more Scots / those who have migrated here. I’m sure the figure of 45% (49%) would shift dramatically towards the greatly desired figure of 60%.

    I reckon however that until such time that broadcasting is devolved we should be looking at the greatest culprits of all … BBC and STV (practically as biased as the BBC now).

    BBC seems like a lost cause but if everyone focused on STV it might make a REAL difference. PLEASE write, phone, email STV complaints section …. complain, complain, complain.

    @ Nana says ‘’Labour’s big day out…tax credit leafleting.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKchy6YtflQ&feature=youtu.be

    Thanks for the laugh Nana. I notice they were hiding their banner, lol! I wonder why?!

    bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/11/16/time-to-get-ready-for-the-second-biggest-decision-in-300-years/on-weighs-in-on-scottish-ucg-project-bring-it-on/

  216. Dr Jim says:

    If I thought for one nano second that the SNP would even consider disbanding after Independence

    I wouldn’t vote for Independence in a million years

    Some folk seem to have a problem with Scotlands National Party being good Government and want the old parties back again. but can we have them better please…Jeez

  217. Robert Peffers says:

    @Taranaich says: 15 November, 2015 at 7:47 pm:
    ” … I refuse to believe that as many as 30% of Scots could possibly believe they would never vote for independence under any circumstances.”

    I say you are correct to hold that view. I’ve been attempting to convert unionists to independence since I was a schoolboy in 1946 and I have never met any unionist, as yet, who was not either profiting from being in the Union so or who was not rather ignorant of the real facts, figures and the history of the union.

    It is definitely my experience that, given enough time with a unionist, who is prepared to listen and debate, I can convert them with just the facts, figures and history. There remains, though, those who do not want to know.

    This mainly because they, or theirs, either already benefit personally from the union or hope to do so, (as if, for example, looking for a lordship, knighthood, a nice safe Westminster seat or a good job from a unionist party). The thing about that last group is they actually do know the union is riding on Scotland’s back but you will never get them to admit it and that is the main reason they are all inveterate liars.

    It is at that point the ears, eyes and brains shut down and the lies flow freely. It is a blind, deaf and dumb process of sheer denial.

  218. sensibledave says:

    The Isolator 12:13 pm

    You wrote “Wtf??Are you suggesting that had we not voted for an SNP government at Holyrood and not returned 56 MPs to Westmimster we would be well on the way to an Independent Scotland?Wow just wow”

    As usual, because you are always looking for a fight, you miss the point completely.

    The majority of people in Scotland (so far) have not voted by more than 50%, for the SNP in Holyrood.

    At the same time, we know that approximately 50% voted to put SNP MPs in Westminster (where they would not be governing Scotland).

    In the last Holyrood election, we know that the majority of Scots didn’t want an SNP Government i.e. they don’t want SNP policies affecting Scotland.

    I would therefore draw the conclusion that there are pro Independence Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative voters that would rather stay in the Union – than have the SNP politics ruling an Independent Scotland.

    By all means disagree with me – but do so after you understand my point!

  219. Paula Rose says:

    The SNP by it’s very nature governs and puts forward policies from the centre ground of Scottish politics. After Independence there will be a party standing in that area – there will also be coherent voices to their right and left.

  220. The Isolator says:

    Sensible Dave says

    “In the last Holyrood election we know that the majority of Scots didn’t want an SNP government ie they don’t want SNP policies affecting Scotland.”

    Here’s a wee bit of advice Dave think before you post.

    I’ve voted SNP for 35 years to prevent Red/Blue tory policies affecting Scotland but that hasn’t gone too well so what was the point in either of your posts Dave?

    SNP bad but you can still vote Labour and gain independence?If Labour Tory and the other mob supporters think independence would be good for Scotland as long as there was no SNP government post independence then great bash on we’ll see you at the ballot box.If not then frankly they can throw shite at the moon!

  221. yesindyref2 says:

    @sensibledave: “I would therefore draw the conclusion that there are pro Independence Labour, Lib Dem and Conservative voters that would rather stay in the Union – than have the SNP politics ruling an Independent Scotland.”

    Yes, definitely as far as the Conservative voters, and quite possibly there are LibDem and Labour voters who could vote Conservative in an independent Scotland, where the Conservatives would represent Scottish Conservative values, rather than Westminster ones. For instance Ruth Davidson criticised the Westminster Tories for their tax credits cuts policy.

    And yes, that was a battle that wasn’t fought in Indy Ref 1, the concentration of it was breaking the Labour party stranglehold on Scotland by left-appealing policies, and that has very successfully worked. It was also very neccessary.

    Indy Ref 2 will have to tackle conservatives (small c), just as much as Labour ones, or ex-Labour ones. Right as well as left, and centre.

    Lib Dems is a curious one, they’re almost wiped out in spite of much of Scotland still respecting Liberal as opposed to LibDem values.

  222. Paula Rose says:

    I am expecting my Right Green Party will appeal immensely to the small ‘c’ conservative voters and to those who would vote Liberal.

  223. Alan Crerar says:

    “Fascinatingly, 3% of SNP voters say they’d never vote for independence.”

    Would that be + or – 3% normal polling error factor?

  224. Paula Rose says:

    Some of them must have given that answer – at least one.

  225. garles says:

    Well now working down in Bristol for 8 weeks and have had banter from some guys today

    1 My fuc***g taxes pay for “jock” subscriptions!!

    My reply NHS is devolved in Scotland.The Scottish Government decided that the cost of paper trail was too expensive.Therefore it was cheaper to pay the cost of prescriptions.

    2 Why don’t England have a Barnett formula like Scotland

    My reply it’s to balance public expenditure between Scotland and English and to some extent Wales.
    Glakit expressions all around!!!!

    I blame the press down here we Jocks are the “bogeymen” by all and sundry

    God it’s going to be a long 8 weeks

    But at least I can still get WOS and WGD

  226. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Well. 10 percent lead on the definites is good. Split the not on principle lot and we have the makings of a majority the next time around. What teh SG needs to make good is 1) economic grounds for prosperity to rise, aiding public tax receipts and expenditure 2) Welfare provisions that make Scotland an attractive proposition to live, work, have families and retire in. These measures may include a second Scottish pension (contributory), unemployment insurance so that people don’t fall off the cliff immediately in a recession (works here in Finland. 1% of salary pays for union fees and unemployment insurance) . It is no good to just stand still and blame Westminster. We have to show what we can do ourselves to make things better



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