A bold interpretation
There’s nothing unusual about reading something in the Scottish media that makes your eyes widen. But a piece we saw in the Courier earlier today stretched ours out to Clockwork Orange-like proportions.
Now that’s a pretty intriguing opening (as the bishop said to the actress). At first we took it to mean that an independent Scotland could effectively take over Britain’s EU membership in the event of a Leave vote, ending any debate about whether and when it would be admitted on its own.
But then the punchline arrived.
That, readers may feel, is quite the leap. Let’s stop and think about the scenario it’s putting forward for a moment.
Firstly, it would in almost every practical sense mean redefining the borders of the UK to exclude Scotland, but while maintaining the Common Travel Area which already exists between the UK and Ireland. (Because not doing so would be obviously insane as well as inconsistent.)
At a stroke that blows apart half of the entire No-campaign argument about border posts and making family into “foreigners” and whatnot. It would entail admitting that all of the dire warnings were nonsense, and that even radical constitutional change could be achieved with little trauma.
Secondly, it would be likely to cause a torrential flood of businesses rushing from the rest of the UK to Scotland. The country’s infrastructure would barely be able to cope with the demands for new office space and transport links – or at least brass nameplates. Tax receipts would rocket through the roof, just at the moment when the Scottish Government became responsible for them. It’d be like a second oil boom.
The consequences on support for independence (already recording a majority in the latest poll) are pretty obvious. Scotland would suddenly find itself far richer, and would already be a nation state in all but name. The final step towards full independence would seem tiny, offering a chance to escape Tory rule while also making off with the loot as English voters rose up in revolt.
Sadly, in Sane Person World there isn’t one chance in a million of Scotland staying in both the EU and the UK while the rest of Britain leaves. But maybe if we all keep very very quiet and pretend that it really would “deal a hammer blow to pro-independence supporters”, we could persuade Westminster to give it a shot.
Dammit.
It’s weird how ‘senior officials’ think it’s dead easy to redraw a member state’s borders if the UK leaves Europe, but that it’d be impossible if Scotland left the UK?
Weird eh?
Dammit is right..somebody will blab big style. 🙂
The consistent message seems to be that Scotland cannot be an independent country running its own affairs.
Imagine if people living in Scotland alone decided what their future within the EU was? Without any rUK instruction, threat, negotiation, etc. That’s crazy talk!
😀 LOL That’s brilliant!
I’ll bet they never saw that coming.
Dear God, all of those pointless bloody arguments over what? Two, three years?
Still, mum’s the word. Sshhhhh!
Next up from the colonial MSM:
‘Scotland could remain in the UK even if it votes to leave. In what will be seen as a hammer blow to independence supporters, a simple redrawing of boundaries by the Westminster Government could ensure that Scotland remains part of the UK LIKE PURE FOR EVER!’
Wow. A real parallel universe?
You really couldn’t make this ordure up.
The Courier, my local, is a vile trashy eager of a paper. Still, that’s quite a scenario being proposed right there. Do journalists these days actually require qualifications or is it something like Workfare?
It would be interesting to see this happen, While I have misgivings towards the EU over TTIP and it’s treatment of Greece by abd large the Eu continues to be a endevour worth remaining in and improving on it would be a significant boost to Scotland to take its own place with Europe.
Plus it’ll mean Cameron can’t use the EU as a scare tactic while refusing to ask the EU about the fears he spreads in the future.
I always say that if you take account of our natural resources, energy capabilities (clean and fossil-fuel) and the most pro-European population inside the UK, then it makes sense for Scotland to be considered the successor-nation to the UK in terms of EU thinking, should the whole UK vote to leave the EU followed by a YES vote in indyref2/
Constitutional experts and legal historians cannot go against the Treaty of Union, which was a legal treaty between two independent sovereign states. It would really be like a marriage divorce — and surely any judge would give care of the French or German kids adopted in the course of that marriage to the party which is closest to Europe?
Edinburgh has the potential to become the new London in the event of a Brexit and YES vote. Will our cringing capital shoot itself in the foot AGAIN and still vote NO?!?
Well that makes sense. In other news, I held up my thumb today and discovered it’s actually bigger than the house further down the street. How am I gonna get out the door?? 🙂
Looks like top class straw grasping as the referendum draws nigh. Seems it’s easy to redraw maps after all.Does this mean border guards to stop ‘waves’ of economic migrants flooding into the EU through its northern border? 🙂
Coming from a rag that’s produced and printed in YES City (Dundee for all of those good Wingers looking in from outside Scotland), that really is a bit of a stretch.
Maybe Desperate Dan has just been given a job on the DC Thomson Editorial team???
I want that, when’s it going to happen, I want a Plaque,
It was in a newspaper wasn’t it……DAMN IT TO HELL
Oh well back to the plan
SNPx2
‘The Scottish Government has not yet responded to the offer’
Yeah, that’s because they’re still pissing themselves laughing.
Oh my head! Not another hammer blow.
It’s over, Yoonies. Just a matter of timing. When my head clears it’ll still be SNP twice in May. It’ll still be “In” in June, not because I care that much, but I want a Constitutional crisis.
Come on England, vote out.
This was always going to be brutal, anyway. So let’s get brutal.
Och stop it my ribs are hurting enough!
If we take away the ridiculous SNPBAD addition, sorry Hammer blow. the UK already defines its territories http://www.exporthelp.europa.eu/thdapp/display.htm?page=cd%2Fcd_OverseasCountriesAndTerritories.html&docType=main&languageId=en
So yes the scenario however completely unlikely could see Scotland as a safe house from the chaos, but my best guess is that vested interests in London would sort that out!
There may just be a sort of precedent in Greenland which is apparently “an autonomous country within the Danish Realm” despite having left the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1985. Perhaps they are thinking we will be an autonomous country within the UK Realm AND inside the EU. In the end the EU is a big pragmatic compromise so who know what they may pochle. In any case Greenland is pretty much on the way to full Indie so if this is a step fwd then why not.
The expert quoted also stated before the referendum that Scotland would seamlessly transfer to EU membership, contradicting BT scaremongering to the contrary.
The hammer blow comment is clearly an over-enthusiastic journalistic gloss.
I wait with bated breath to hear what Endura’s statement is on the matter, as their supposed reason for coming out against independence was that they would need to sack their Scottish workforce as a result of being kicked out of the EU. No doubt their non-exec director is sorting out the graphs as we speak.
What rannygazzoo is this. Here was me believing that Scotland could never ever ever be a member of the EU as an independent country and now it appears we can if the UK ( which I understand to be England, NI, Wales and Scotland) left.
This sounds fantastic since the UE would then ignore the authority of the UK Westminster government and deal directly with Scotland on all things that Westminster have control of. So assuming this is not tomfoolery from the Coyrier, which it could never be, I look forward to our voting to stay in the EU. Fabous, just fabulous.
Is The Courier written by the apprentices who hope to work on the Sunday Post and Weekly News when they grow up?
I would bet anything the EU referendum result will be given nationally with no breakdown by region or country.
This wheeze also being touted in the Press and Journal.
Are you sure this was from the Courier, and not the Beano?
katherine hamilton, I’m right with you there.
But I’d really prefer it if both W&NI were with us on that one. I suspect they will be.
Does this mean that I and the other 1.6+ million YES voters (less the 16 and 17 year olds) should all vote to leave the EU so as to ensure a UK exit. Then change our minds after the result to get an independence referendum.
eh what the hell did they write this after downing alcohol all night lol
oh whoa is me they have rumbled us if they do this we are finished 😉
O/T sorry if it’s a bit early and mentioned earlier but Osborn’s brothers been struck off! Inappropriate behaviour with a vulnerable female patient.
David McCann. Not the Courier nor the Beano but the Dandy. Off to watch Jockinirry on the BBC now. Beano indeed, tsk tsk!
John Reid@ 3:28
No, for gods sake NO if Scotland votes to leave the EU then there would be no question of a referendum as our position would be the same as the rest of the UK!
No relation are you 🙂
I wonder how many out voters in England would consider it an even better result if they got out of the EU and got rid of Scotland in the same year?
I don’t even understand what they think their point is supposed to be. It is like reading a foreign language.
Personally I will vote to leave the EU, despite any potential to further independence because of different result in Scotland and rUK. This is because EU had two strands originally, economic and what might broadly be called social (or civilisation if you prefer). After Greece and TTIP there is no doubt in my mind that the social aspect has been subsumed into the plutocratic club. I want no part of that and I no longer believe that ground can be retaken.
But whatever your stance the quotes above are batshit. As I understand it countries are members of the EU. If you redraw the boundaries as suggested, uk is no longer a country, by any definition: it is 2 countries. As it happens that is already the situation in practice, since EVEL: though it is not formalised and recognised. This would make it formal, so far as I can see. WM will never admit it, much less make it explicit in the way described.
That is before any of the considerations Rev Stu points up.
mumsyhugs says: 3:35
Yes he must be such a disappointment, only abusing one, whilst his brother abuses millions.
I wonder if he is a Burlington boy too?
Jockinorry the BBC Scotland equivalent of Jackinory. A bit like the Megic Roonaboot that we get when we read the Courier. It’s braw stuff, ye ken. Another dram Dan, an a hunk o coo pie tae now that we’re aw going to be in Europe after all.
If you live in Scotland then vote the way you believe.
If you are Scots, want indy, live in England & are getting pretty pissed off with the way the EU has imposed govts on countries in the last few years then its tempting to vote “out”.
I think Cameron has screwed up in the timing of the EU ref.
Would be amusing if he was known as the PM who “saved the union” then lost it because of “Europe”.
Oooo Betty….. 😀
Hi heraldnomore,
That would be the icing on the cake. I think NI is a shoe in stay region. Not too up on Wales, I’m afraid.
Scotland, NI and Wales to stay, England to leave. So we all leave?
Hope so. Watch the smelly stuff hit the fan.
Aye Rev, and a bit o a slow day doon sooth tae. Ah see the Old Etonians are getting stuck intae those seditious junior doctors. These boys and girls need to understand who runs the country. Can’t be putting up with subversives like these docs now. Take what they’re telt they are due else the white man’s stick. Just like the miners, we can’t yield to comms, trots and anarchists. And if Jocko up the road thinks he can feather bed these blaggards, well we are giving them too much budget. We’ll get onto that next!
@Kenny says: 11 February, 2016 at 2:40 pm:
” … Constitutional experts and legal historians cannot go against the Treaty of Union, which was a legal treaty between two independent sovereign states.”
The last thing in the World that the Treaty of Union is would be, “a legal treaty between two independent sovereign states. “All actual evidence, as opposed to Westminster propaganda, points to exactly the opposite being the case.
First of all the actual historic evidence of the situation in 1603 is that King James I of England and his English parliament regarded themselves as part of an actual United Kingdom that never legally existed. Scotland and England between 1603 and 1707 remained independent kingdoms with the respective crowns resting uopon the same royal head.
However, during that time the, “English Navigation Acts”, were deployed against Scotland in order to penalise Scotland and force her into union.
The Navigation Acts of 1651, (and again of 1660) were acts of Parliament designed by the English Parliament to further the self-sufficiency of the then English only Kingdom, (it purported to be a British Empire but was not). It was designed for restricting English colonial trade to England and thus increasing dependence upon foreign imported goods in Scotland and all non-English kingdoms.
The Navigation Act of 1651, aimed primarily at the Dutch, required all trade between England and the colonies to be carried in English or colonial vessels, resulting in the Anglo-Dutch War in 1652.
The Navigation Act of 1660 continued the policies set forth in the 1651 act and enumerated certain articles-sugar, tobacco, cotton, wool, indigo, and ginger-that were to be shipped only to England or an English province.
These acts were deployed also against Scotland and were a prime reason for, mainly, the Scottish Parliamentarians who were also Scotland’s main landowners to take the bait, hook, line and sinker of the William Patterson proposed, Darien Scheme and invest their money.
Patterson had already proven his, “London Scot”, credentials by starting the successful subscription scheme, to bail out the English Parliament, that led to formation of the private company of the Bank of England.
In fact by the time, leading to the Treaty of Union, the English and Dutch, (who had been at war over the Navigation Acts), had made peace and they jointly promised to fund 50% oif the Darien expenses.
Only to pull out after the Scots landowners had invested heavily in ships, crews and stores. The English/Dutch pull-out resulted in the expedition being underfunded from the start. Add to this the English refusal to allow the Royal Navy and Queen’s Soldiers to aid the expeditioners.
Meanwhile Patterson and his friend, Daniel Defoe were beavering away in Edinburgh as undercover English agents and reporting back to London. Defoe’s letters are still in existance.
Add to all that the bribery, blackmail and corruption and the English armies massed on the Scottish English borders and the English fleet anchored off Berwick and it is very obvious this was not a voluntary signing of a treaty.
Also remember that almost 40 years after the Treaty Butcher Cumberland was murdering innocent women and children in Scotland in the aftermath of the Battle of Cullodin.
The Treaty of Union was a shameful episode of English aggression that has always been lied about and falsley taught to Scottish children in Scottish schools.
Intriguing.
What about if Scottish votes keep the rest of the UK in. Karma. Sense of grievance etc. EVEL.
It’s simply a restating of both the UK and Denmark’s current position. Both have parts of their territory that is outwith the EU. Denmark is more notable in that Greenland is semi-autonomous and in what most people would claim is a position of Devo-Max.
The only assumption that’s being peddled here is that somehow it’d be Westminster that controlled the membership after it had been reduced to include only Scotland and our islands. The idea that this would put an end to the ambition is the only fanciful part in the idea. They’re almost bound to fuck it up entirely. Imagine Mundel being delegated responsibility for the EU.
This EU referendum could play out so well for Scotland.
I’m not going to dream though. I did that the last time and my heart ended up in a mincer.
Time, as always, will tell.
Andrew McLean,
I can see where John Reid is coming from as I’m a rabid Europhobe myself who was always going to vote no. In my heart I’ll be voting no come 23rd June, or whenever. But my head will overrule my heart for once and I’ll be voting Yes.
Not Yes to stay in Europe, but Yes for Scotland to be different to rUK, which of course has to vote No. I am tactically voting Yes hoping England votes No as an excuse to trigger a Indefer2. Added austerity to come, with son of trident, EVEL and a much watered down Smith Commission should do the trick. If not, then I don’t know what will?
After Independence, if the Question is ever asked in a Referendum, “Should an Independent Scotland join the E.U.?” then I’m voting no. Same to Nato Membership as well.
Stephen.
A sizable chunk of the BT “Project Fear” went on about the “fact” that Scotland would NEVER be allowed into the EU if independent, because the Spanish would hate it, and even the lure of the largest fisheries in Europe wouldn’t tempt the Spanish or Portuguese. Weird how NOW, we apparently COULD be in the EU SEPARATELY from rUK? Weird that, Innit?
I didn’t ever think along those lines, so that comes as an ‘eye opener’ as the Rev says.
All I can say is … seriously?
We should remember that the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guersey are not in the EU and outside the UK.
I suppose England could join them while Scotland, Wales and NI become the continuation state of the UK. I never ever thought of us as rUK and England leaving!
O/T but can anyone say what the tax free allowance will be in 2016 in Scotland?
According to BritNats on twitter no-one will pay more tax below £19K if taxes are raised.
They are talking about UK + SRIT and I can’t fond anything to back up this £19K
Just guessing these aren’t the officials who previously advising the hapless Barroso.
The EU can be surprisingly flexible when required. For example Saint Barthelemy, an island in the Carribean which used to be part of Guadeloupe and therefore automatically of France and with EU membership, naturellement, voted in a referendum to leave Guadeloupe.
But as well as forming yet another new relationship with France, adding to the bewildering miasma of such relationships France has, it still retained overseas territory status with the EU and retains the Euro. This was not automatic but the EU accommodated it.
Saint Martin another small island (actually part of another small island) more or less followed suit at the same time but did not retain the Euro (by choice).
Another pending one in the Pacific which is of some interest is New Caledonia. They are bound by agreement to have an indyref sometime before the end of 2018. The interesting development there is the setting of the residency cut off to Nov 1998, which means settlers since then, which includes 10s of thousands of French Nationals, will not get to vote in it.
If this scenario ever came to pass (doubtful in the extreme) then you can bet your bottom brass bean that Westminster will already be working out their strategy to undermine any benefit that Scotland could ever acrue from such a situation. And we need to do likewise–think through all the possibilitites and bear-traps. It’s like chess–we need to always think ahead at least two or three moves more than Westminster. Remember–they are masters at gazzumping and frustrating Scotland’s aspirations and they will do it again whatever the outcome is. We need to be clever and position ourselves where we place Westminster into a ‘forced check-mate’ where Scotland, for a change, wins the game.
Oddly enough I mischievously put this option forward on the Courier’s comments section in response to unionists arguing that Scotland couldn’t dictate to England regarding EU membership.
I finished my comment asking why Scotlamd couldn’t remain an EU member while part of the UK, and if not, why not?
We live in strange times.
Stephen
why rabid? what specifically do you not like?
Personally I think its the best thing since slice bread.
Just saying?
Quite like NATO too, just don’t like that bampot Robertson who was sent there to hide as his wee mouth was too much for even his own party. But that’s another story.
The idea that this is a ‘hammerblow to pro-independence’ folk is laughable, but otherwise it’s an intriguing idea.
Parts of France, the Aland Islands (Finland), the Channel Islands, Madeira, Gibralter, the Canaries and Northern Cyprus all have odd relationships with the EU, being part in and part out.
So the idea that the UK would still be in the EU, with some parts of it (eg England and Wales) being outside isn’t completely ludicrous.
As Stu says, such a situation would almost certainly lead to companies relocating to Scotland in order to maintain full free trade with the rest of the EU.
I’d suggest we keep this idea on the table – you never know if we might need it.
What I’ve noticed is that anti-independence activists are becoming more bizarre by the day, nay, minute, in their twisted and non-factual protestations, which totally ignore reality and exist only in an Alice in Wonderland mushroom infested parallel stargate non-reality.
Won’t be long now.
The Courier’s publisher DC Thomson is notoriously pro Union but anti Unions (and catholics). Unfortunately these days their “journalists” tend to be young kids with little life experience and likely to publish and poorly reserarched and poorly written piece.
Best to stick to their comics for laughs!
Liz @ 4.11
As far as I am aware the tax-free personal allowance for 2016-17 will be £10,800 from April 2016 and this applies over the whole of the UK.
I am not sure if the Scotland Bill currently going through Westminster will give the Scottish Parliament powers to adjust the personal tax-free allowance but even if it does it won’t come into effect until the bill becomes an Act and that does not look to be happening any time soon.
OT – sorry
Treasury offers £4.5 billion to offset the fiscal framework loss. The recent figure being bandied about was £3 billion loss, as it seemed the Treasury had gone some way from the original levels indexation which could cause a £7.5 billion loss on Barnett.
But what if they’re just saying £4.5 billion they’ll kindly give over 10 years, because that’s what their last “offer” was anyway?
Treasury smoke and mirrors? Surely not!
This leads on to a whole question of Denmark, the Danish Realm and the status of the Faroe Islands and Greenland. Neither of these are sovereign (the Danish Realm is sovereign) and not in the EU although the sovereign parliamentary area (Denmark) is.
As an aside. One of the main drivers of all internet sites and whether you get to be listed as a country is ISO-3166-1. Greenland and the Faroes ARE on that list and hence appear on almost every website as a country option. But they are not sovereign. They are not members of the UN, only Denmark (the Realm) is. So … why can’t Scotland be in ISO-3166-1 and then ‘appear’ as an option in drop downs and get a ‘proper’ Internet domain?
tax-free personal allowance for 2016-17 will be £11,000 from April 2016
@Legerwood
I think it’s £11,000 personal allowance for 2016-17 frm the HMRC rates and thresholds, and no, the Scotland Bill 2015 doesn’t allow the Personal Allowance to be adjusted, but does allow thresholds for higher rate tax bands. I think I’ve got that right!
Is there an actual copy of this oft quoted Treaty of Union? I only ask because all I can find is two Acts of Union which are simply the passing into law what one assumes were the conditions of that mythical Treaty. We could probably reconstruct a version from where they agree and even disagree and treaties don’t have to be equal. I seem to remember that there were some “experts” who claimed that because those acts don’t read like treaties and aren’t identical then the can’t be a treaty to enforce. No shit Sherlocks.
@yesindyref2
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/02/11/the-treasury-just-admitted-that-the-scotland-bill-is-a-trap/
@Lergerwood – thanks for that.
I don’t think the SG does have power to change allowance level.
Seems like they are bandying about figures in the hope we fall for it.
This is the calculator, try it and you will see if SRIT increased above 10%, taxes rise,
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/74826.aspx
Talking of parallel universes…
Here is the excellent moodievision take on the Slab candidates.
Incredible, but true!
http://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3442/moodievision-labour-s-got-talent
I see Einstein was on the ball again with his prediction re Gravitational waves in black holes. The guy was an alien.
I woder if he would be stumped by predicting Labour policy for any given month ?
This whole thing just reinforces the feelings I’m getting of sheer and utter desperation setting in on the Unionists as the realisation dawns upon them that the wisdom of Victor Hugo was indeed correct when he wrote:-
“On résiste à l’invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l’invasion des idées.”
Which translates as :-
“One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas.”
And without doubt the idea that Scotland will take her independence from an increasingly corrupt and cruel Westminster that seems set upon the suppression of the poor, old, disabled and ill has taken root in Scotland.
I believe that today we are witnessing the final steps in the Westminster Unionists plan to end the English NHS with their very deliberate head-on crash with the NHS Doctors.
@EricS
An interesting idea would be if Scotland applied for associate membership of the Nordic Council. As a self governing region, it may be able to do so. Not sure if associate members have to be self governing regions of a fully sovereign member state though.
Cameron is stuck between a rock and a hard place ,if the vote is an exit by England and Scotland is pulled out against the electorates wishes then we will push for indyref2 nothing surprising there.
However should England be kept in by the rest of us against their will all the hate and lies the tories have told the English could come back to bite them,maybe the English will want their own referendum on ending the union,well lets face it they are not the brightest due to years of BBC rule Britannia,Daily Mail hate everything not English propaganda and subsidy junkie Scots lies.
I would not be surprised if he tries to kick it into the long grass so he can do a runner before it happens.
@Nana
Thanks for that, title without URL posted on the Herald.
@liz
The SRIT site has the 2012 Scotland Act in it, but not the Scotland Bill 2015. It does allow change of bands and thresholds, and even new bands like Davidson’s 30% one, but no change to the personal allowance which will be £11,000 for 2016-17 tax year.
There is a UK budget coming up mid-March by the way and in theory Osborne could change it in tgime for tax tables to be readjusted by the HMRC for business, and small updates to PAYE software including its own. The outstanding issue is the increase to the threshold of the higher rate tax band which is to be implemented by 2020-21, but he could bring it forward if he wanted to.
@Paul
Thanks for link. Moodie at his best.
Orbit the best place for Slab – Disnae Land.
In the ongoing standoff between the Scottish Government and the Westminster treasury over the ‘Scotland’ bill, it does seem as though London has blinked first. John Swinney should now go for the jugular.
It is clear the treasury paid liars (‘negotiators’) have been ‘leaned on’ by Toryboy David Cameron. London getting desperate I think.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/02/11/the-treasury-just-admitted-that-the-scotland-bill-is-a-trap/
Bob Mack says: 4:49 pm
I wonder if Einstein would be stumped by predicting Labour policy for any given month ?
I think he says just throw a dice?
🙂
Interesting to note, that one commenter over on Bella regarding the latest bribe offered by Westminster, suggested it could be considered a modern version of ‘The Equivalent’, which was meant to be paid to Scotland following the treaty of union in 1707.
I’m sure Robert Peffers knows more about it than me.
Interesting times. Is the movement of Scotland towards becoming Independent by default gathering pace?
Apologies for being O/T here and also ifthis has already been posted. 😉
http://archive.is/8B2hB
If I were of a cynical nature, which I am … erm … not? 😉 , I’d be saying something like “Porky Cameron really is c******g himself” round about now.
However, as everyone knows, I am NOT … erm … of a cynical nature. 😉 , therefore I’ll just call it straight down the middle as I see it so to speak.
Cameron is c******g himself … BIG time! 😀
I think if we were playing a game of seeing who blinks first then we can catagorically say that Porky DEFINITIVELY blinked first! 😀
Holyrood might be able to apply if associate members don’t have to be full states. Just as any the could for any cultural alliance.
O/T Re fiscal framework
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/scottish-affairs-committee
A wee word from John Swinney
https://twitter.com/CommonsScotAffs/status/697802165692342273?lang=en-gb
I’m really trying to get my head round this but it’s not working for me. I’m not sure what the folks at the courier are on.
@Robert Louis
I spotted this on the bella comments.
http://moflomojo.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/the-equivalent.html
Greenland, which is still part of the Kingdom of Denmark, voted to leave the EEC in 1985, so it must be possible to have a country divided between membership and non-membership. Obviously Greenland is far away from the Danish mainland which makes the separation easier, and of course there aren’t thousands of people clamouring to get into Greenland.
As always, someone will pop up and say that ‘Scotland isn’t Greenland’ in the same way that ‘Scotland isn’t Norway/Switzerland/Belgium/France/ROI/Czech Republic/Finland etc etc’
Just in case folks are not aware there was a wee stooshie during FMQ’s … apparently. 😉
http://news.stv.tv/politics/1342466-labour-msp-faces-disciplinary-action-after-calling-fm-a-liar/
Methinks this COWARD’s antics should be made aware to EVERYONE in the Lothian region. THIS is how your Labour M.S.P.’s behave!
The Coward of the county is actually number TWO on the Lothian list behind everyone’s favourite Labour leadr. 😉
http://labourlist.org/2016/02/scottish-labour-announce-list-candidates-for-mays-election/
@orri says: 11 February, 2016 at 4:35 pm
“Is there an actual copy of this oft quoted Treaty of Union? I only ask because all I can find is two Acts of Union which are simply the passing into law …”
Strange you should ask that, Orri. I had several references to the actual texts on-line. I can now find none of them.
Nearest I can get is now is not quite the same thing as a full text. Do I smell the strange whiff of a conspirace here?
This is the best I can find at the moment:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Union
One of the original sources I had was a web site by R.A. Barnes that I can no longer find. I probably have the text file filed away somewhere.
However, one of my computers, the one I mainly used every day, is out of action at the moment. A big laptop that is actually O.K. but its sealed mains Unit/batter charger has grown a dead short.
Lesley Anne,
Is that not the wee guy from Chewing the Fat? The one that always plays the trick on the big one, like in the Lighthouse Keepers from 110 years ago. It looks like him. “Gonnae no dae that”. “How?” “Gonnae no”.
Stephen.
Andrew,
I simply don’t like Centralised Government or Undemocratic unaccountability. That’s why I’m Anti-E.U. as well as Anti-UK.
And don’t get me started on Nato. Washington’s Poodle.
Stephen.
If I can add just a wee addendum to my previous post. 😉
I have read a few posts on Facebook and it appears that Findlay did not just call our First Minister a LIAR. Oh no folks it was worse … MUCH worse than that … apparently.
From posts on Facebook I understand he actually called Nicola Sturgeon a LYING W***E!
Now, in my book to call anyone a liar within the confines of the chamber at Holyrood is bad enough but to also call them the “W” word as well is beyond the pale. This bampot MUST be BANNED from Holyrood … PERMANENTLY!
Remember Ireland is not a foreign country, under 1948 Ireland act so border could not be put in place. It’s only Scotland that would regarded as foreign. It’s also the why ROI citizens get a vote in the in/out referendum.
OT Maybe not 100% accurate but still..
IN 1931 Charlie Chaplin invited Albert Einstein, who was visiting Hollywood, to a private screening of his new film City Lights. As the two men drove into town together, passers by waved and cheered.
Einstein said to Chaplin: “What I most admire about you is your art. You don’t say a word, yet the world understands you”
“It is true”, answered Chaplin, “but your glory is even greater: The whole world admires you, even though they don’t understand a word of what you say.”
Lesley Anne,
I’m honestly scratching my head trying to figure out what that word is? I’m assuming it’s not Wifie, as that is not a word you would censor Or am I wrong?
I’m not that good at crosswords either.
Stephen.
@Robert Louis
Yes, the Vow, Smith, Scotland Bill 2015 and the fiscal framework are doing their job as planned!
@Lesley-Anne
The more nasty of the Unionist activists are getting more and more insulting, and desperate, I’m having to take a cold bath so I can reply politely – which is the winning tactic.
The more we smile and be nice to them, the more they hate it and get more and more abusive. But there are decent ones amongst them, perhaps just being dragged along.
Meanwhile the rest of Scotland looks on in astonishment and disgust.
@Lesley-Anne
Oh Jes&& – I’ve just worled out what “w***e” is.
yes, I think that’s a permanenet banning offence, in fact a call to step down as an MSP.
@bugsbunny – rhymes with roar.
I haven’t actually listened to FMQ’s myself Bugs, … YET! 😉
However, there does seem to be quite a few people over on the Facebook page I am on who all seem to be saying the same, or similar, thing … he DID call Nicola a LYING W***E!
I forgot to link to the Facebook page before … DOH! 😀
https://www.facebook.com/groups/915534888474472/1251530948208196/?comment_id=1251536414874316¬if_t=like
Apparently i have just been blocked from the ‘scottish’ labour party facebook pages.
Kind of strange timing since i have been pretty ‘robust’ in the past when calling out liars and loonies!
Anyhoo….here is what seems to have been the “final straw”
Maybe it was because i got it in 1st, seconds after the post appeared …..?
……..
Perhaps kezia could explain her quote, regarding taxation, from conference 94 days ago ?
……………….
“A fairer Scotland isn’t one where everyone pays MORE tax”
“In fact, we want hundreds of thousands of working Scots to pay LESS tax”
………………..
Perhaps kezia is suffering from cognitive dissonance ?
..
cognitive dissonance
…..
noun
PSYCHOLOGY
noun: cognitive dissonance
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioural decisions and attitude change.
………
Seems like a perfect fit !
Bye bye Mr Findlay i would say you will be missed as a fine Scottish politician but i wont because it would be a lie,good riddance to bad rubbish and dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
O/T:
@orri:
As I understand it the Two Acts of Union follow closely the original Treaty wording as the matter was more or less rushed through.
While I can no longer access the original websites that I used to get the full text I find someone has been kind enough to archive them :-
http://archive.is/j3tAY
Here is the Acts forward from that archive page:-
Note my emphassis.
Forgot to add to my post….i wonder where i got yon information….???
Can hear it now….
“Wings causes labour strunts”…..”i’m john mackay….”
Just think about Germany’s reaction to a referendum calling for Bavaria to leave the EU and you’ll see why, without an agreed timetable towards full independence such as that between Denmark and Greenland, will mean Scotland won’t be treated like Greenland. Or worse, imagine Catalonia doing it. Scotland has less devolved powers than either of these two areas.
But it would be fun if it ultimately turned into a situation whereby England or the rUK left both Scotland and the EU, like Greenland.
Not only is it becoming the perfect storm for Westminster, but it also has David Cameron snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
The EU Referendum is going to give England nightmares. On one hand, should England vote to secede from the EU, then the UKippers and Little Englanders will dance with great joy one moment, and then howl in fury as they realise that their beloved UK Union is about to fall to pieces. If England votes to stay in the EU, then half of England is going to enter a mode of blind fury. They will see no answer to their ‘immigration’ problem that they believe blights their nation.
For David Cameron, he wins the Scottish Referendum of 2014 …only to lose it within possible days / weeks if Scotland secedes from the UK.
And if they try to persuade Scotland to stay, then its going to be a hard argument for them to win. Just as they did with us, it boils down to one thing – the economic case.
Once Scots realise that the UK leaving the EU will see Sterling plummet; companies ready to upsticks for Europe; no alternative trading zone to work with; being punished by Brussels for having the audacity to stick 2 fingers up at the European project (because they will most definitely make an example of Britain to the rest of the EU); and possibly see Westminster tear up every EU act that protects workers rights …will have Scots scrambling for the independence life boats.
After all …as they said to us throughout 2014 ‘…what’s your economic case for being independent?
Well …right back at ye, Westminster.
I see. What a twat. Please tell me he’s standing down at this election, or if not he’s on the constituency list only?
What a vile mouthed twat. It’s a wonder Jabba the Hut wasn’t guffawing like they usually do?
Stephen.
Just saw that on STV news and replayed it a few times. Gisbson’s face showed shock, the cries came, and thea was before “liar” was repeated twice which didn’ get the same reaction. So something worse was said before the “liar”.
It would need another microphone or phone recording to be sure, but it did sound a little like “oar”.
O/T
Letter from devo committee to scotgov. You will have to click the link within the tweet to read.
https://twitter.com/SP_DevoCttee/status/697842821282267136?lang=en-gb
Interesting idea. Isle of Man is not in the EU (or in the UK) but uses Sterling so a few permutations are already possible.
Poppycock, utter poppycock, this could only be achieved by devolving all power that are impacted by EU so Scotland could comply with EU requirements ongoing including the allready denied Human rights it would leave Scotland in a impossible impasse as there would two and quite possibly conflicting regulatory direction.
Yes Scotland could stay but only as a separate state divorced from UK as EU treet if an existing state fragment those fragments remain EU members.
@indyref2 – think there were a few shouts of liar to cover for what that despicable eejit said.
OT
but bang on for Wings which takes a star role in the Herald article:
“Scottish politicians on Twitter: sometimes safe, sometimes silly, rarely strident”
OT again sorry from the Herald article:
” Wings Over Scotland, the creation of Somerset-based Rev Stuart Campbell, grew a large following in and around the 2014 independence referendum as many in the pro-Yes camp found a place on social media to share material they did not believe was being disseminated by the traditional press.
Wings continues to be influential, so which politicians interacted most with the Rev Campbell in recent months? “
Maybe England should leave the UK and the EU and stop bugging everybody.
Does anyone know how the EU referendum vote numbers will be made public?
Will we learn how Scotland voted?
There is a part of me which would enjoy discovering that Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish ‘stay-in’ votes were enough to ensure that an English ‘get-out’ majority failed.
Just watched Reporting Scotland. No mention of Neil Findlay calling NS a liar.
Surprise Surprise.
Anything but independence. Any rule can be stretched, any treaty can be seen as legal playdough, constitutional gymnastics can & will be performed but please god, no independence. Unionism now lives in the rabbit hole.
Vestas at 3.44
I will be voting out even though I want to stay in. Of course, I live in England. It’s the least I can do to help indy.
As a Dundononian, I cant but help thinking that the Courier is being subsidised to write shit as who on earth do they think they’re appealing to with this guff?
Is it just me who finds that the b.b.c. website “Scotland, democracy ” is locked on yesterday 10th, and that the Parliments own website keeps crashing?.
Filthy Slabber cowards hiding behind impotent Dippy Dug.
We need to cleans Holyrood of these flea ridden rejects.
SNP x 2
The Isle of Man is part of the UK but is not in the EU, so why couldn’t it work the other way round? Or have I missed something?
neil findlay liar
https://twitter.com/search?q=neil+findlay+liar&ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Esearch
It’s a breach of the peace anywhere else
The guy that wrote this is either on drugs or there was a shitload of lying during the referendum from Better Together.
@Andy MacNicol
Isle of Man is not part of the UK. It’s an overseas Crown Dependency, like the Channel Islands.
Neil Findlay? Calling The First Minister a liar?
The failed bricky? The failed teacher? The failed politician?
This very same bastion of sincerity and all that is honest?
http://wingsoverscotland.com/did-we-miss-a-meeting/
Findlay, you are both a coward and a proven liar, scumbag!
Shocking & disgusting behaviour from Findlay and I believe there was a visitor from Finland and kids from a school in the gallery.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35549515
Here’s another way of looking at it. Do the people of England, Wales and NI have the RIGHT to takeaway European Citizenship from the Scots?
We are already European Union citizens and this is about giving that citizenship up. But what if Scots want to retain citizenship through a democratic vote in the eyes of the law, can that citizenship be taken away because the other constituent nation(s) may want to give up theirs?
I think this is much more than just an in/out referendum as it is being made out to be.
No wonder the Tories want to scrap the European Human Rights Act, I believe they want to strip people(s) of the UK of their very legal existance. Scotland could then be legally known as North Britain and the Scots Paliament reduced to Labour’s wet dream of a Grand Committee.
@frogesque
DC Thomson who own The Courier are still a family owned company. They are a very Conservative and Unionist family of long standing. It is unreasonable to expect a The National or SH style enlightenment in such a family.
They did however lose little time in signing up Wee Eck as a columnist once he resigned. So they are responsive to their marketplace and do recognise the milieu in which they swim they are still essentially unionist, hence this article.
Note, to read Wee Eck you had to buy the physical paper, only a precis is on the website. They have not survived and stayed independent for so long without commercial nous.
I have to be honest, and say I am fearful of how Scotland will vote in the EU referendum. I want to see Scotland staying in, based on what I’ve read about business and trade.
I worry when I read angry posts on Indy pages, about wanting out, based on nothing more than perceived ‘interference’ from the EU.
If folk want to be informed, go to Business for Scotland, literally dozens of articles.
Listening to Findlay, and the rest of the Neanderthals in the yoony parties, I have come to the conclusion.
The way the SNP are running the country for the interests of the Scottish people is a bit like watching the evolution of man.
We now have intelligent, professional human beings running the country.( That is why Scotland is getting better)
Voting for the likes of SLab would be like going back to the beginning of time.
Time to vote the knuckle draggers into extinction.
SNPx2
How can the media be so incompetent.
The Herald reporting the Fiscal Settlement pushed back till the 23rd of Feb.
The letter from the Devolution(Further Powers) committee is quite clear that any agreement is be published by the 19th of February so the committee have time to study it before a Meeting on the 23rd with Mundell and John Swinnie.
So the new deadline is the 19th.
@Short changed says: 11 February, 2016 at 5:42 pm:
“Remember Ireland is not a foreign country, under 1948 Ireland act so border could not be put in place. It’s only Scotland that would regarded as foreign. It’s also the why ROI citizens get a vote in the in/out referendum.”
It is also, Short Changed, why ROI citiens can be MPs at Westminster if selected to stand in a UK constituency. More interestingly could be the real reasoning that allowed this to happen.
It seems more than likely that it has to do with the UK, while always downplaying the truth that the K in UK stands for Kingdom, is not a country and that by becoming a Republic there was no option but to allow The south to leave. You cannot be part of a kingdom if you are a republic.
To stop speculation they had no option than to allow Southern Ireland to become a republic within the U.Kingdom to do otherwise would expose the weakness in the Treaty of Union and the weakness of devolving powers along the lines of country.
bugsbunny says:
11 February, 2016 at 6:12 pm
I see. What a twat. Please tell me he’s standing down at this election, or if not he’s on the constituency list only?
I’m afraid he is on the Lothian list Bugs. He is number two on the list behind his ever so gracious *ahem* leader.
http://labourlist.org/2016/02/scottish-labour-announce-list-candidates-for-mays-election/
Hi Muscleguy (7.45pm).
Good comment. DC Thomson may be Unionist barstewards but they’re OUR Unionist barstewards. We, in Dundee, know which boxes they tick, and act accordingly.
Hence 57%…
Neil Findlay seems to be losing the plot a tad. I don’t have an issue with him getting het up and all macho and shouting liar but to then do a “Brave, Brave Sir Robin and boldly run away” is just laughable. Did he go to the killing fields of Cambodia too?
It is like something from Primary 2
Who said that…own up or I will keep the whole class in at playtime.
@Valerie
I have to be honest, and say I am fearful of how Scotland will vote in the EU referendum. I want to see Scotland staying in, based on what I’ve read about business and trade.
Valerie, will there be Indy members sceptical of the EU, and therefore, would like Scotland to also secede from the European Trading Zone?
Of course there will be.
However …if this debate with a fellow indy member should ever arise, the argument is simple.
1. They can vote ‘Yes’ to leave the EU, but they will still be ruled by Westminster.
2. Or they can vote ‘No’, thus trying to keep Scotland in the EU while England votes itself out, and in doing so …will most likely trigger a 2nd Scottish Referendum. From the polls we have seen, Scots will then vote for independence (next time, around 60% instead of the 45% we saw at the last one).
Then if Scotland becomes independent, they can, as a separate group, pursue an agenda in trying to obtain another referendum on Europe, only this time, it will only be affecting an independent Scotland.
Some Indy supporters may not like the EU, but they will bite your hand off for a 2nd shot at another Scottish Referendum. They may not like the EU, but they will most definitely vote to remain in the EU if it means ending Scotland’s political ties to Westminster.
When that is put on the table, I think we can count all those Indy supporters who would prefer on seeing us out of Europe than have the chance of a 2nd Referendum and a real chance for an independent Scotland …in one hand!
Basically …they will take Scottish Independence first …and then they can debate about an independent Scotland’s position in Europe.
And nae mulk at playtime.
Oh, I forgot; Thatcher took the mulk, did she no’?
OT
Findlay.
Should resign and stand down immediately. Not good enough.
And to the people of Scotland who voted Labour anytime or anyone coming on here looking for information or reading these replies.
With that behaviour today you must ask yourself.
These Labour MSP’s who orchestrate incidents like the one today.
These Labour MSP’s who shout and jeer as if in a school playground.
These Labour MSP’s who insult the First Minister of Scotland.
These Labour MSP’s who have no respect for democracy.
These Labour MSP’s who cannot answer any questions.
These Labour MSP’s who don’t have any policies.
These Labour MSP’s who say one thing one week.
These Labour MSP’s who say the opposite the following week.
These Labour MSP’s who campaign against anything that could be good for you and your family.
These Labour MSP’s who bully their way into the job.
These Labour MSP’s who are both for and against policies at the same time.
These Labour MSP’s who have no direction.
These Labour MSP’s who are nothing more than failed Union Reps or Councillors.
These Labour MSP’s who are in it for their own benefit.
These Labour MSP’s who are career politicians.
These Labour MSP’s who do everything they can toe the SNPbad party line.
These MSP’s who despite the warning signs have let you down year after year and decade after decade.
These Labour MSP’s who can only gain their seats by being on the list vote.
These Labour MSP’s who are so far to the right their known as Red Tories.
These Labour MSP’s who stood side by side with the Tories against Scottish Independence.
Are they really representing you?
Are they really speaking for you?
Are they really working for you?
Are they really worthy of another 5 years?
Are they really the left wing socialists they claim to be?
Are they really doing the job they should?
Are they really the party of the people?
Are they really worth your vote?
You decide!
@ Inverclyder (8.24pm):
One or two tweaks and you’ve got yersel a good A5-flyer there!
We seem finally to be edging towards the end game. We couldn’t reassert our independence and move forward because Westminster and the right wing press put the fear of God into our pensioners.
The culture of fear is now so strong it has taken over the host and now the UK is lurching towards the exit door. They wouldn’t let us go and now they are staggering, shambolic and uninformed towards isolation.
The UK has never seemed such a construct. It’s over now bar the messy divorce. Thank god we have a national government worthy of the name.
The spin on the article above is risible. What I read is what I knew already- an accommodation will be made. We just need to be ready and the morning of a leave vote mass in freedom square or outside the parliament and say loud and clear: here is what we are going to do Now.
No one will stop us and we will the EU will suddenly have zero to gain from playing the Westminster game and will become a belated ally.
Stoker @ 8:31pm
Feel free!
The anger I feel at the whole STV reporting on Findlay and the retraction / change from Findlay cannot be put into words.
Absolutely disgusted at the whole thing.
To hear Female Labour MSP’s repeat the outburst from Findlay just shows how low these Labour MSP’s will go.
I firmly believe they orchestrate these things regularly and are now at the desperation stage.
@liz says: 11 February, 2016 at 5:58 pm:
“@bugsbunny – rhymes with roar.”
Or in Scotland – with poor. Mind you going by Unionist standards over the past few years perhaps the word poor is to them a greater insult.
JLT and Valerie.
We have a Scottish Parliamentary election coming up in a matter of weeks and lots of people are discussing the not yet announced, we don’t know when or what it’s all about EU referendum.
Not having a pop but we are being manipulated away from what matters most a Tory agenda.
A Tory horse.
Be careful what we focus on. Do not be distracted. Do not dilute our Scottish Parliamentary election discussion.
@Inverclyder says 8:38pm
STV, EBC, MSM Don’t even pretend to be impartial, honest and fair any longer. They are just yoons through and through to the bone. HMG PROPAGANDA UNIT.
@ short changed
They get a vote because they are EU citizens short changed not because they choose to live in the UK same as all EU citizens who live here.
Oh and the ROI is a foreign country in the context of someone who lives in the UK,they use the Euro,can vote in their own laws through their own parliament without having to ask England if its okay.
As i have said before all Scots yes or no should go visit and see what a country unshackled from the British empire can do,oh and dont believe the UK press about how terrible it all is ,the Irish are doing fine,just dont try to tell them they are still part of Britain or you might end up in one of their hospitals.
We can but imagine the reaction of the BBC if one of our MSPs had referred to Kezia in these terms.
The BBC take was fucking shameful, as we expect. Moderate voices are going to end up being drowned out in time. I have counted myself in their numbers but I cannot watch while the media performs moral gymnastics to demonise our government while minimising or erasing any transgression by the opposition.
I am becoming firmly in the UDI wing and will remain their as long as we have a media that is acting against the future of our country, my country.
They will not simply let us have our revolution- that much is clear to me. That is contrary to everything we know. We need to bide our time then assert ourselves after a leave vote immediately.
As an EU Yesser 100%, I think our chums in the south will bottle it and vote Yes too. Toryboy’s are toryboys all over and they know that the EU is an endless source of cheap high skill labour. Its probably all that really keeps UKOK going. Cutting off that source is not the toryboy plan for teamGB. It was all just a toryboy stunt to placate far right England last GE anyway.
So just relax, sit back and enjoy the spectacle of toryboy’s bullshitting each other on the ever more hideous BBC, UKOK style, all over again. And ofcourse Scotland’s UKIP clown MEP, royally embarrass Scotland to our EU friends.
Sorry EU.
http://caltonjock.com/2014/11/05/bbc-scotland-powerful-politically-corrupt-and-biased-shameful-abuse-of-the-scottish-electorate/
So yes, Scotland votes for independence and is cast out of the EU with England and or the rUK remaining the continuing member state.
It ni, England votes for independence from the EU whilst Scotland votes to stay and remains the continuing member state. Never quite thought if it like this before but as EU members, can England votecto remove Scotland’s EU rights – our EU citizenship et al. This is in truth an interesting concept whereby England belives it can remove our EU citizenship against our will.
Boycott The British Bullshit Corporation
http://archive.is/cM3B3
SNP x 2
🙂
@Tam Jardine
Ah Tam, don’t get mad, get even.
Just keep an eye on the media and when you get a chance, specially if it’s nothing to do with Indy or the SNP, point out how biased and untruthful the media is. How it works to its own agenda. It could be about the EU, even Cameron or Labour. Or benefits or the English NHS. Or xenophobia aginst Germany / France / Russia.
Bit by bit.
@Robert Peffers
I’m doing catch up here so forgive me if this has been found.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk+%E2%80%BA+getImage&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=__a8VqjwHsSqaYelhbgK#q=historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk+%E2%80%BA+getImage+treaty+of+union+1707
I hope that I’ve put this up correctly I did test it on Google on a separate window and it opened. However this is a PDF file that will download. It is 32 pages long and looks to be what you’re looking for ‘re Treaty of Union. Apologises if it’s not.
Vote labour, we believe in equality.
We hate every taxpayer equally.
We hate people on benefits equally.
We just hate everything not labour.
But we have a special hate box for those who have taken away our place at the trough.
….
It is such a pity they still think it is the SNP which has done for them, when it is the enlightened Scottish electorate who have removed them from what they thought was their ‘rightful’ place.
Ho hum…..never mind !
Robert try this could be better.
http://www.forscotland.com/actofu.html
Sorry folks if this has been done to death!
FMQs
Scottish Parliament
Watched ‘live’ but like most things the opposition come out with,I had difficulty understanding what was being said.
What a shame,for the brightest and best of the Red Tories,constipated of ideas and yet……verbal diarrhoea.
Is there a wee sense of frustration amongst their team,that perhaps,their leader is not up to it,(now thinks Findlay if only,I was leader,I am after all,well known as the master of wit and repartee),got to get in before Kelly,this is MY moment,MY big chance……#ayeyermaw
Another visiting dignitary,suitably impressed.
SNP x 2
Just been reading through things and I suddenly realised that the people of England feel that they want to be free of the EU just the same way that the people of Scotland feel about Westminster. We want to be free of a system that does not let us have a fair say they shout but ironically can’t here those same cries from Scotland. But they will have to listen because the people of Scotland won’t climb back in their box
Alastair says:
JLT and Valerie
Oh, I understand what you are saying, mate. However, I believe the Tories have bigger problems to contend with than Scotland. To begin with, Cameron knows his EU offer is a sham; the Europeans won’t buy it, and neither will the English electorate. The clock is ticking on that one.
However, if the Tory government once again begins to spend too much time focussing on Scotland, then the English electorate will begin to growl …and this time with deep anger. As far as England is concerned, Scotland has had its time in the spotlight; the problems of England now have to dealt with; not refocusing on what seems to be the ‘usual Scottish grievances’.
The problem for the Tories, the Unionists and the media is that every lie, twisted truth, and sneer that they threw at us in the run up to the Referendum 2014 has been laid bare, one by one. Every single ‘fact’ that they put to the Scottish electorate has been shown to be a lie.
Cameron is bricking it over this financial settlement with Holyrood. The longer it remains on the table unresolved, the more he knows that he is going to be exposed in the long term along with all the ‘Better Together’ lot. He knows that the English electorate will eventually demand an end to this bickering between Holyrood and Westminster …and it will eventually be on the lines of ‘just get the Scots telt! Force them to accept a financial deal’ …and well …we all know the seismic explosion of fury that will erupt in Scotland if that should happen.
I don’t think Cameron is going to interfere too much in these up and coming elections. He’s got enough on his plate …and then some …within his own nation.
I see some Unionists are aleady trying to use the EU Referendum against the SNP, in a vain attempt to discredit or distract them: “Why aren’t they out campaigning to stay in?”
Simple answer: because Cameron the disrespectful leader of your so-called Union wants to have the Referendum only 6 weeks after the Scottish Elections and those of Wales and NI, which come first.
@DerekM says: 11 February, 2016 at 8:53 pm:
“They get a vote because they are EU citizens short changed not because they choose to live in the UK same as all EU citizens who live here.”
Utter pish! Derek They had it long before the EU or even the EC was thought of. There is an Act of the UK parliament, from long before the EU, that states the Republic of Ireland is not to be treated as a foreign country.
They have a further concession most folks don’t know about too. Any citien of the Republic is legally permitted to become an MP in the United Kingdom Parliament if selected and elected from a UK constituency.
I quote – “Who can stand as an MP?
People wishing to stand as an MP must be over 18 years of age, and a British citizen, or citizen of a Commonwealth country or the Republic of Ireland.”
You will find it here –
http://www.parliament.uk/search/results/?q=who+can+be+an+MP
This is on the Westminster Parliament’s own website.
I would speculate this was a fudge to NOT have to show that the United Kingdom is legally exactly what its title describes it as A KINGDOM. It is NOT a country and can only loosly be described as a state.
The Irish Free State, from 1922 to 1937, replaced both the terms Irish Republic and Southern Ireland. Until 1927 it was ruled by a Governor General on behalf of the King of the United Kingdom.
Following a row between the Governments in London and Dublin it was agreed that the Governor General represented the King of Ireland and not the King of the United Kingdom even although they were the same person. What it did do was have the King and the Governor General advised by the Irish government about what to do in Ireland and this stopped the United Kingdom government from having control over Irish affairs.
Then the constitution of 1937 changed the name of the country to either, in Irish, “Éire”, or in English, “Ireland,” but the King stayed head of state until 1948.
By the way the Westminster habit of calling itself the British Government is the reason the people of the Republic still resent being called what they really are, “British”, what they most certainly are not is members of The United Kingdom. They do however inhabit part of the British Isles and so, whether they like it or not, they are British.
The UK is not Britian and it never has been in its entire history. They just like everyone to think it is.
Yep, focus on elections first. We already know via opinion polls that Scotland wants to stay in EU. Let Labour and the Tories bash themselves up about it. It is splitting theTories apart. This and the young Dr’s strike will give the English population much to mull over.
Personally I would run a couple of SNP candidates down in N England just to add to the mix. Labour are unelectable, and the Tories are putting the NHS at risk.
What’s to lose by turning the screw a little tighter.
@Alastair
I’m not likely to get distracted, with a ton of leaflets to deliver for my MSP.
My concern is the one raised by Angus Robertson at PMQs – timing.
If there is a referendum in June, it’s hard running for the SNP to make the case to stay in following the Holyrood elections.
On the plus side, lots of things are turning to shit for Cameron, and let’s hope the Doctors look for retribution. Dismantling the NHS started in 2012, and no one has been paying attention, thanks to the compliant bum, but perhaps now the medical profession will fight.
@JLT
Correct analysis. But today’s imposition of the junior doctor contract raises a further question…
Ever since the Iron Lady’s victory over the miners, there has been an instinctive Tory desire to be seen to be tougher even than the great She-elephant.
So, as we watch the brinkmanship between the SG and the Treasury, I wonder whether the SG tactics don’t contain an element of goading the Tories into ‘imposing a contract’ on Scotland – and I have little doubt that there would be considerable satisfaction among Tory backbenchers in seeing the Scots being shown who is boss.
(And before people start muttering about the Sewell convention – the UK Gov has always insisted on its absolute right to legislate for Scotland)
Which would lead to a very interesting state of affairs…
I think Findlay should take a good look at himself, because in his next job he won’t get away with,
“Liar, are you wanting fries with that?”
Then again he and his colleagues don’t even have the brains to do that job.
SNPx2
Just think that could have been their leader!!!!
Taxi for Findlay.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Yeah, well out of the ordinary I bought a copy of Dundee’s finest Yoon organ this morning – having spotted something of specific local interest in it.
Imagine my delight on finding that most incredibly impressive bit of Yoon “black is white” Indybad piece of nonsense inside.
Jings, crivens helpmaboab! I exclaimed, just as another DC Thomson stalwart might have, “that blasted EU, it’s almost as bad as that damned oil”.
In the print paper itself, immediately below that little gem was a piece by Kieran Andrews on current pro-Yes indy polling. It was decent straight forward reportage followed by hilariously questioning why the leading UK Euro-in campaign would be daft enough to give itself the acronym BSE.
[For those with shorter memories (watch the number of burgers yoor eating), BSE also stands for bovine spongiform encephalitis, aka mad cow disease. Er yes well …, we’d probably best not get into which Yoon figure the UK BSE mad cow might be. We’d be here all night for a start – choices, choices …].
The juxtaposition of the 2 Courier pieces was marvelous – one saying Indy is doomed irrespective of the EU-vote, whilst the one immediately below it said that people want Indy anyway. Priceless. Definitely an exceedingly good Courier day.
… And yet another reason why they don’t put rebels in a box.
No obvious gravity waves detected in the State and Corporate Media over the fate of George Osboures brother – how will he support himself? Will he have to lodge an on-line benefits application or suffer abouse in job centres?
then again it might be possible for the substantial off-shored family assets to support him now that his has been drummed out of his profession. Thank Goodness assets and thier income in the UK can be anonymously located in a tax haven. We would not want the Multinationals like Google to feel lonely in Barbados Jersey or wherever
This rightly leaves just the peasants paying taxes .
Goes to show the benefit of George making sure that the 1% dont have to pay their fair share of tax and attacking benefits, as clearly no one who matters will have to claim benefits and all the Jersey dosh was bound to come in handy at some stage
Booked into Oban hotel for two days poor internet signal… can’t play any media for longer than 10secs and missed all the fun today. 🙁
Nicola Sturgeon says Treasury is misleading media over Scottish funding
First minister accuses Treasury of falsely presenting £4.5bn concession as new offer amid signs funding deal may collapse
Observer: view from darn sarf!
https://archive.is/axPRN
@willie says: 11 February, 2016 at 9:05 pm:
So yes, Scotland votes for independence and is cast out of the EU with England and or the rUK remaining the continuing member state.
Get a grip, Willie. In the first place the claims of the Unionist propaganda that Scotland would be cast out of the EU and England continue as the United Kingdom and the member state was never an official EU statement.
It came from the Unionist propaganda and Barosso. Barroso was not an MEP. He was NOT even an offical EU spokeperson and, by the way was always misquoted. Barosso was a member of the EU Commission, in fact its president. That is a paid for EU Civil Servant.
That word, “Commission”, is the clue. He was a paid for EU Civil Servant and every time he opened his mouth with anti-Scottish bullshit he first qualified it as his own view or stated that he was not specifically refering to Scotland. The Unionist propaganda wing then took over and made it seem it was the EU’s views.
Look at the truth and it is this – The United Kingdom is exactly that – a kingdom and it is thus not a country. It has only two member kingdoms and the treaty that made it states both member kingdoms are equally sovereign kingdoms.
It is quite likely that a legal challange would expose the devolving of powers along the lines of member countries would show that with, only two member kingdoms, and three of the UK countries being parts of the English Kingdom, devolution was illegal.
The Treaty is a bipartite agreement and all bipartite partnerships legally end when either party walks away. The legal term for this is they revert to the Status Quo Ante. That is the status before the partnership.I.e. two indsependent Kingdoms.
As to the EU membership – EU laws do not have any mechanism to withdraw EU citizen’s citizenship from them. Imagine then an independent Scotland not being an EU member but with 100% of its people still EU citizens. It’s the thing that EU political nightmares are made of.
@Cherry says: 11 February, 2016 at 9:13 pm
”
I’m doing catch up here so forgive me if this has been found.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk+%E2%80%BA+getImage&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=__a8VqjwHsSqaYelhbgK#q=historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk+%E2%80%BA+getImage+treaty+of+union+1707
I hope that I’ve put this up correctly I did test it on Google on a separate window and it opened. However this is a PDF file that will download. It is 32 pages long and looks to be what you’re looking for ‘re Treaty of Union. Apologises if it’s no”
Thank you, Cherry, I also found that one. However I then found an archived version that I’d used before and it explains the two acts of Union actually incorporate the Treaty Wording in full. It also explains that The Scots parliament amended some wording but the English act incorporated them.
Thus the Acts are the original Treaty as accrpted.
@call me dav
From that article “Nicola Sturgeon says Treasury is misleading media over Scottish funding ” by Severin Carrell who should know a thing or two about misleading. Maybe he’s turned over a new leaf and doesn’t like slugs.
Whoa, there’s this:
“The divisions between Holyrood and the UK government deepened further after Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish Green party backed Sturgeon. They said the Scottish government was right to reject the Treasury’s proposals, leaving the Scottish Tories isolated 12 weeks before the Holyrood elections.”
Methinks the Scottish Labour Party and LibDems are starting to see sense. Won’t last long though.
Hehe, someone else it leaves isolated is our and the Rev’s dear friend Kevein – and all those who put their trust in his graphs. There’s one born every minute.
Robert Peffers,
“Utter pish! Derek”
“It is NOT a country and can only loosly be described as a state.”
Yes, the United Nations, the European Union, NATO have no problem in having loosly described states as members.
Stop talking utter pish yourself.
The United Kingdom is a political state and that is the only thing that matters to the entire world.
It signs all international treaties as a political state.
And it is a state to most of us fighting to be free from this rotten to the core state.
Actually that article by Severin Carrell call me dave posted is a total cracker. It looks like Hands deliberately misled the reporters which will have really hacked them off.
“Hands denied media reports that the £4.5bn concession had only just been made: he told the Guardian that it was part of a new formula tabled by the Treasury two weeks ago …”
Trying to think of some appropriate lyrics.
The BBC must think we Scots “button up the back”. Today in Holyrood Findlay called the First Minister a “Liar”. He was shouted down by the SNP members present but achieved hi aim , namely disruption of proceedings. (The act of a schoolboy bully I thought)
The Presiding Officer later recalled the house, after the culprit was identified. At which time reading from a brief, presumably prepared for him away from the Chamber, by persons versed in legal speak he sort of offered an ingenious half hearted heavily slanted apology
The response from the Presiding Officer simply acknowledged his statement but It is clear the matter is not resolved to her satifaction.
Later I watched the evening BBC Scottish News and was struck by the quite disgraceful presentation by Brian Taylor of the day’s events in Holyrood.
He blandly raised the performance of Kezia Dugdale, referring to her questioning of Nicola Sturgeon in the matter of education and followed this up with a video of Dugdale brandishing a document clearly leaked to her by Labour Councillors members of local council. At the end of the clip, there followed, without introduction a clip of Rennie rabbiting on about the same thing. After this a Nicola Sturgeon clip in which she demolished Rennie was shown. But Nicola Sturgeon’s rebuttal of Dugdale’s allegations was omitted.
I waited for some time but to my surprise there was no mention of Findlay and his disgraceful performance in the chamber only a few hours before.
Getting back to the non-apology offered by Findlay. It was noteworthy that Dugdale and her front bench did not return to the chamber to hear it. Jackie Baillie was present and sat with her head lowered throughout. But was she laughing surely not. Have a close look at the clip.
Labours’ Neil Findlay callled the First Minister a “lying whore”
He,of course, is a lying shite.
Labour are in their death throes!
Famous…Naw, I see dead people.
@Inverclyder
Spot on. Would make a great leaflet with minor tweaks.
Scotland is a country but it is not a state.
However, thanks to being a member country of the UK it is in a state.
Our SNP branch in Clydebank, under the leader of the Yes campaign which delivered a ‘Yes’ vote convened a Writers Group. We met in said leader’s house tonight to plan a campaign of action of sending letters to local newspapers as well as contributing to our local SNP MSP’s leaflet.
Maybe some of you could also do that in your area,
RE: The argument over what is a ‘State‘ and what is a ‘Nation‘.
Strangely, I’m actually covering this as a topic right at this very moment with the Open University. For their definitions, here they are.
State
The term ‘state’ will be used below to refer to the apparatus of government pertaining to a particular geographical area. Thus, a ‘state’ is primarily an administrative and political entity. By contrast, the term ‘nation’ is much harder to define.
Nation
A ‘nation’ will be defined more in terms of cultural attributes. A nation, then, is a named human population, usually sharing a given territory, usually having a shared cultural history, often (but not always) speaking the same language and normally conscious of the fact that they constitute a nation. This last point is crucial.
And as the great French Historian and Philosopher, Ernest Renan said in his main work ‘What is a nation?’, this was probably the most crucial set of paragraphs
A nation is a soul, a spiritual principle. Two things, which in truth are but one, constitute this soul or spiritual principle. One lies in the past, one in the present. One is the possession in common of a rich legacy of memories; the other is present-day consent, the desire to live together, the will to perpetuate the value of the heritage that one has received in an undivided form. Human beings, I tell you, are not made overnight. The nation, like the individual, is the culmination of a long past of endeavours, sacrifice, and devotion. Of all cults, that of the ancestors is the most legitimate, for our ancestors have made us what we are. A heroic past, great men, glory (by which I understand genuine glory), this is the social capital upon which one bases a national idea. To have common glories in the past and to have a common will in the present; to have performed great deeds together, to wish to perform still more – these are the essential conditions for being a people. We love in proportion to the sacrifices to which we have consented, and in proportion to the ills we have suffered. We love the house we have built and handed down. The Spartan song – ‘We are what you were; we will be what you are’ – is, in its simplicity, the abridged hymn of every patrie.
More valuable by far than common customs posts and frontiers conforming to strategic interests is the fact of sharing, in the past, a glorious heritage and regrets, and of having, in the future, a shared plan of action, or the fact of having suffered, enjoyed, and hoped together. These are the kinds of things that can be understood in spite of differences of race and language. I spoke just now of ‘having suffered together’ and, indeed, suffering in common unifies more than joy does. Where national memories are concerned, griefs are of more value than triumphs, for they impose duties, and require a common effort.
A nation is therefore a vast solidarity, constituted by the feeling of the sacrifices that one has made in the past and of those that one is prepared to make in the future.
Therefore, it is safe to say that the United Kingdom is a ‘State‘ and Scotland is a ‘Nation‘. However, the UK pretends that it is a nation by trying to impose a set of ‘rules’ that try to make their citizens feel love and devotion for the ‘State’. These will includes a State Education that imposes the use of the main state language, commemorative holidays, the issue of historical stamps, the building of war memorials, the use of national flags and anthems…(…does this all sound familiar).
For the UK, you could also say that on top of what the UK State tries to promote as a ‘national culture’ (the Union Jack, GB teams, London, the proud promotion of the State’s military past) …we also have the cult of the Royal Family at the very top of this list. This is what the British State wants the Scots, English, Welsh and Irish to love; everything in that list. What is doesn’t want, is people promoting or advocating the ‘nation culture’ of what Renan promoted.
As Renan stated ‘Where national memories are concerned, griefs are of more value than triumphs’ (Culloden, Flodden, the Famines of the late 1800’s)…when was the last time the British State remembered its griefs? The closest to it is WW1, and even that is still cheered as a great victory over Germany. Remembrance Day on November 11th maybe a day of remembering the horrendous sacrifices made by the young men of the British Isles, but it is still a promotion of the British State’s military history, with the Royals right at the heart of it.
The Courier;
The paper of the headline
“learner driver executes a perfect three point turn on the lizie brae first time”!
Can anyone imagine what will happen to workers rights, health and safety, and human rights if Scotland gets dragged out of Europe.
The Working Time Directive, the right to transfer employment under TUPE – acquired rights directive, maternity leave, ECHr et al. The UK will just let rip and propel workers back to Victorian days.
Neil Findlay states that he did not understand that using the word liar in parliament is unparliamentary.
I can’t even spell parlamint and I know you can’t call some one a liar.
The man is either very stupid, a liar, or a piss taker, I’m gonna plumb for all three, either way, he is not fit for purpose.
We need to get people like him out of politics and replace them with decent people.
SNP x 2 come May.
Willie
Not to mention health and safety laws, the favourite of the tabloids,
O/T links
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3452/robin-mcalpine-it-s-time-for-the-ruling-classes-to-lose
Royal navy admits causing whale deaths
http://forces.tv/95310511
http://theorkneyvole.com/2016/02/11/now-the-dust-has-settled-carmichaels-solicitor-blogged-way-too-early/
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3456/caledonian-and-strathclyde-university-principals-top-expenses-lists
O/T links
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5775/ec-probes-another-300-google-style-tax-deals-across-europe
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/02/10/inside-crazy-shady-world-tory-fundraising-ball/
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/latestnews/2016/02/10/France-rejects-special-treatment-UK-banks-EU-package
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/02/un-rights-council-fails-yemeni-civilians
@ Still positive.
Wingers doing same in our part of the world.
Have posted e mail addresses for local newspapers a couple of times.
Let me know if you want me to do it again.
JLT says
“Therefore, it is safe to say that the United Kingdom is a ‘State‘ and Scotland is a ‘Nation‘. However, the UK pretends that it is a nation by trying to impose a set of ‘rules’ that try to make their citizens feel love and devotion for the ‘State’.”
Thanks for that posting. I found it useful.
Yes, Scotland is our nation, but the UK has been working hard push the idea that it is the nation. It has been successful in Scotland for a minority – the till death BritNats.
I don’t know about anyone else but I’ll put my hands up and say I have had difficulty understanding the details of the fiscal settlement debate.
I seem a bit clearer now …..
Herald https://archive.is/YGQ4y
… this is Bella is much clearer …
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/02/11/the-treasury-just-admitted-that-the-scotland-bill-is-a-trap/
“If Scotland’s population had kept pace with independent Denmark and Norway’s during the 20th century, there would be around 10 million Scots, rather than 5 million. The Scotland bill gives us no powers to grow our population.”
…. it is the weakness of the SB itself that is the problem.
It has, of late, become my practice to begin the day by checking-out the Rev’s Twitter feed, before proceeding to this, the main Wings site.
This morning’s trawl of the Twitter feed was hilarious, some absolute crackers on there; fair cheered me up it has.
I also had a look at the Herald’s website, the most-commented-on piece I could see was the one about North Lanarkshire Coonsil thinking about flying the Irish tricolour to mark the centenary of the 1916 Easter Uprising in Dublin.
I cannot help thinking, even if we do regain our Independence, Scotland’s biggest drawback will remain the fact, a sizeable minority of Scots, particularly in West-Central Scotland, will, for a couple of generations perhaps, continue to be obsessed by two dates in Irish history, 1690 and 1916.
If we could sort the continuing fall-out from these two dates out, we might be able, some day, to move forward and become a proper, grown-up nation.
Significantly more people rushing to comment on the Herald site, on the Tricolour issue than on that Ned Findlay’s disgraceful heckle of the First Minister yesterday.
I read this article in the courier online and it let me no me better informed as to how this could possibly work.
How could the EU redraw the boundaries and what would be the reaction of the rest of the UK, in regard to a whole range of issues that would affect Scotland such our representatives at Westminster, fishing, as tax etc.
I just had a look at the Neil Findlay apology.
He is acting like a schoolboy that has been caught with his hands in the biscuit barrel.
What an exhibition of immaturity and childishness. We expect more from out elected representatives.
One look at the body language of those other Labour MSPs tells a story.
I can’t quite decide whether this charade is a deliberate attempt to bring down the standards of the chamber and in order to represent the Scottish Parliament as something much less that it’s London equivalent, or, is it just tantrums borne from a sense of entitlement and the fact that Labour are in opposition.
A poor show by Labour.
O/T MSP’s have backed additional 3% charge on buy-to-let properties and second homes over £40,000.
Looks like private tenants will be hit with a 3% rent rise.
Famous15 12:47 am
RE Labours’ Neil Findlay
Can you send a link?
I sympathise (and even somewhat agree) with those in Scotland who want to vote to leave the EU, but I would suggest the following should be considered.
If the situation arises that Scotland votes to remain, and England votes to leave, and we then get independence, then our vote to remain is far from binding (ie, not binding at all!).
What I think is likely if the above should happen is that the EU suddenly backpedals on these hostile statements from 2014, inviting us to fast-track our membership etc (or even take over the EU’s membership). It is at this point that Sturgeon should say:
“Haud on a minute. During the independence referendum we were told it would be impossible, would need to join a queue etc. So this is where we negotiate our terms, and here are the terms.”
Scotland is in a very strong position in these negotiations. Firstly, we would likely be a net contributor. Then there’s all the implications of our resources and strategic position.
Thirdly, attempts to get Scotland to join/remain would be in the context of losing one of the big boy members, so the EU project will be in crisis.
Then we should have another EU referendum in independent Scotland on whether or not to accept these terms and rejoin. After all, this situation is definitely a change in circumstances and so would merit, nay require, a further referendum.
On balance I think Scotland should be in the EU, but I don’t think we should make it easy for them once we are in the normal position of actually deciding for ourselves. We should be extracting apologies and concessions for their undemocratic behaviour and outright hostility during the indyref.
But the current situation, in my opinion, requires brutal tactics for us to get what we want. That means for Scots in Scotland to vote to remain, and Scots in England to vote to leave.
That is the game we are being forced to play, so we should play it. But the game suddenly changes to another one if we happen to break it. There is little risk for Scots in Scotland voting to remain, and everything to gain from it.
The Faeroe Islands and Greenland are not examples of what Scotland will become if r-UK is outside the EU and Scotland is in. It is Denmark which is part of the EU, therefore Scotland would be like DK and r-UK would be like Greenland and the Faeroe Islands. The UK can exist with southern parts outwith the EU, precedents exist. And it would definitely mean a European border between Scotland and England, as Wings points out, but the Couriers fails to.
T222Deracha
That mirrors what the UK Government (excluding Scotland) are doing. The levy is only on the purchase price, full details here:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/96663.aspx
Triangular Ears says:
Yes well said, in the event of England leaving the EU would be susceptible, one of the big boys just pulling out, so to stop any untangling of the European project would be keen to have an oil producing net exporter of Natural gas with an excellent renewables from hydro to wind as a member. Not to mention a highly educated pro European citizenship.
If anyone is in any doubt, every line in the sand drawn by Westminster, pretending to proclaim the settled will of the Scottish population has failed. Every time they draw the line every time our feet walk all over it.
Soar Alba
Blind Squirrel says:
As will a border between the Republic and Rump UK
@Andrew mclean.
Link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35549515
Alex Salmond phone in, from Wednesday.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/alex-salmond-phone-in-watch-live-122981
Thanks Gerry, its not the liar part, its the second word.
is there a record of this, because if true the EIS and Unison, never mind the Labour party in England, his bosses need to answer for supporting him.
Good point Andrew 🙂
@ JLT 5.47
Good post. That UK is a “state” for administration purpose but Scotland is the “nation” with the cultural heritage and shared aspirations, rings true. Should make for an interesting course at OU!
An act of the UK parliament yea Robert thats your mistake ,do you think the Irish care what the UK parliament says or does do you ?
Or that in a last ditch attempt to make themselves look like the winners of a war with Ireland where blood was spilled on both sides they spun a lot of shite,or do you think they only do this to Scotland.
Yes they are geographically still part of the British Isles but you go try and tell them this and see what the outcome is i dare you.
Just because its written in some legal mumbo jumbo by the UK does not reflect on the Irish position but then they dont care because they are free from UK tyranny and lies,its just us here in the UK that gets fed the UK position of rule Britannia,after all we have been through i would have thought you would have got that by now.
And since i was talking about now and the EU referendum and why ROI citizens will be allowed a vote if they stay in the UK i have no idea why you went off on one was it because i called them a foreign country,well define to me what constitutes a foreign country,here is a clue they make their own laws have their own economy and use a different currency from the country i live in if that doesnt make them foreign then what does.
And i think if you asked the good people of the ROI the question are you still British the resounding answer would be feck off we have never been British just occupied by an evil foreign power that tried to make us British but we fought back and won.
Please dont use the legal crap of colonial terrorists to justify your position the reality is much different.
Apologies if this was posted earlier.
The Ponsonby Post,a couple of days ago on the Council Tax and the BBC. [in Scotland]
A snapshot quote:-
“As you can see, Professor Kerley was presented by BBC Scotland as the impartial academic shedding light on the darkness of political debate. He’s a professor, so viewers would automatically assume he had no political axe to grind. But would they have been correct in their assumption?
What BBC Scotland failed to tell viewers was that Richard Kerley was a former Labour councillor. He was an Edinburgh councillor for eight years.” [!!!!!!!]
You’re a busted flush BBC Scotchland.
End of—-half of Scotland no longer watch/listen to your nonsense evening news.
http://tinyurl.com/hqtw823
Could it be in some sort of fantasy Best Of Both Worlds arrangement the aritical is exploring.
Westminster still right there in Europe because its Scotland’s Sovereign (I know Robert but they don’t or don’t want to)Government.
Lucky Scotland has good old Westminster to take care of it in Europe as Holyrood doesn’t have all the area’s necessary devolved,at the insistence of the Settled “like” forever will of the Scottish people.
O/T bruising comment
http://archive.is/uVPqc
Oh this’ll leave a mark.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/12/40-scottish-labour-mps-we_n_9216594.html?1455274241&
Labour in Scotland apparently not well thought of, even by their own UK party.
And after all they’ve done for them in the past two years. Some folk have no sense of loyalty or gratitude.
@Nana
Snap! 😀
Oooh, that is bruising @Nana!
Can’t help having a wee chuckle, at seeing in print, what many having been saying for years – plain speaking!
@Macart
Aye snap crackle and pop! and just think one of those usless mps is now on the Holyrood list.
@Valerie
It sure gave me a lift, I’m still chuckling.
From Einstein to Neil Finlay, black-holes to arse-holes, must be a link somewhere.
@Macart
@nana
An interesting Huff set of revelations. Apart from the 40 useless, this caught my attention …
“Some Labour MPs are pushing hard for a more distinctive English message for the party, with former Shadow Education Secretary recently calling for a referendum on an English Parliament, amid fears it will take years to recover in Scotland.”
… London Labour wanting to be a more English party, just like their fellow blue Tories. A step in the right (and honest) direction. As Unionist parties’ presence withers in Scotland it makes perfect sense for London parties to focus more on their core support which is Middle English.
There are subtle indications everywhere that Indy is coming, soon.
Macart, Nana
it is not news to me they were useless, Take Pamela Nash who pretended to be an MP, and compare and contrast. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24737/pamela_nash/airdrie_and_shotts, in the short while that we have had Neil Gray http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25293/neil_gray/airdrie_and_shotts
Just look at the difference, why go back to a labradoodle when you can have an Scottish collie, intelligent and hardworking.
We realized we had 40 + useless Labour MP’s in Scotland, particularly after the referendum. That’s why we voted them out. We also know we have a bunch of effing useless MSPs but with the list vote it’s a bit harder to get rid of them all because of the list vote. We’ll give it a damn good try though.
SNP X 2
The Independent will stop publishing in March. The information is to be sold to Johnstone press. O/T.
@galamcennalath
Ayup, I wonder just how ‘better together’ they’re feeling right about now?
During the referendum the Scottish branch did everything that was asked of them, to the point where they alienated their own electorate, and now?
Well now they know where they stand, don’t they?
Now, more than ever, it is essential to turn out and return a pro indy Scottish Government in May.
O/T
Watch how a wastrel spends taxpayers cash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv7HptegecM
The independent 1st to fail !
http://news.sky.com/story/1640927/independent-newspaper-set-to-close-in-march
@Rock says: 11 February, 2016 at 11:20 pm:
“The United Kingdom is a political state and that is the only thing that matters to the entire world.”
Then, Rock, why have you just, in that sentence above, called it a kingdom?
It signs all international treaties as a political state.
Err! No it doesn’t. This is your usual pish. Everything that passes into law, every treaty made and every legal change made in the United Kingdom bears not only the Queen’s signature but the United Kingdom’s Royal seal.
The United Kingdom isn’t even all a legal Constitutional Monarchy. As a United Kingdom it only has two partner kingdoms – The Kingdom of England that is composed of three countries is the legal constitutional monarchy.
That kingdom of England became a constitutional monarchy in 1688 after the English Glorious Revolution in which they deposed their monarch and imported King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange. Under the conditions they delegated their royal powers to the English parliament and thus lost the royal veto over that parliament of England.
As Scotland was then still an independent Kingdom,(although their Scottish crown rested upon the same person’s head), Scotland remained independent for another 104 years, until after the 1706/7 Treaty of Union and Scottish law, by the terms of that treaty, still remains independent of English law today.
The people of Scotland are thus still legally sovereign and the Queen of the United Kingdom is not sovereign in Scotland. They Establishment has just always acted as if their monarch also owned Scotland.
So there you go. Britain has never joined NATO, the UN or the EU. The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland has and the signatures and Royal seal of Her Majesty the Queen of England and Queen of Scots are the legal signatures on the documents.
Her Majesty has to legally sign everything or it cannet be legal. However she signs them as the legal sovereign of the Kingdom of England but as the legal representative of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.
Nornirn, will be interesting, its farmers get a good deal from the EU, why would they cut their noses off to spite their faces.
The 40 useless Slab MPs and their MSPs are deluding themselves if the think there will be a revival in Labours fortunes for many many years.
If I could offer any advice it would be to separate entirely from London Labour and support Independence. There is no other way for them.
Fireproofjim, I’ve just been reading an article reporting what a current Labour Shadow Cabinet member said about the upside of the last election being the ‘loss’ of 40 particularly useless MPs. I paraphrase. Anyway, although I welcome repenting sinners, can you see many of Holyrood’s opposition enhancing the credibility of the message?
@JLT says: 12 February, 2016 at 5:47 am:
Regarding, “RE: The argument over what is a ‘State‘ and what is a ‘Nation‘”.
Rather elegant post, JLT. Thank you for that.
However, in regard to the United Kingdom there is yet another complication. That of, “Country”, of which the United Kingdom usually claims it has four.
If fact it is actually rather more complicated than that.
The actual British Royal Realm of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth also contains three Crown dependencies. The two Channel Island Bailiwicks and the Isle of Man are crown dependencies but are not goverened by the Her Majesty’s Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. Not to mention there is a little known Act of Parliament that declares the Republic of Ireland NOT to be a foreign country, (One can only guess as to why).
That is the Crown Dependencies are parts of The Royal Realm of Her Majesty’s United Kingdom but not goverened by Her Majesty’s Parliament of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.
This brings up the, very much ignored, fact that the actual, “United Kingdom of Britain”. and that of, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, are not quite the same thing.
Geo@12.33
Re;
Independent newpaper shutting down. I think they were anti Indy but, they do have some much more indepth national, and world news, environmental etc, as far as I can see. I often find it hidden, just like the right wing gits round here do with the National, they really don’t like the Independent, maybe because of the title(!) but I suspect more because it doesn’t do the anti immigrant, anti Scotland, anti those having to rely on the state for funding for essential living costs.
Maybe I am wrong, but it is the last paper, except the National, that I wanted to see going, the anti-democratic, right wing gits will be delighted. UKok, fascist state, closed media state, not good.
O/T
In light of the “who runs Britain” stand off with the junior doctors perhaps this is the time to watch Jonathan Pie practicing saying “Jeremy HHHunt”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJKHlLKxLg
Former Secretary of State for Scotland, Lord George Roberston, said on ‘Daily Politics’ BBC show today,
“I walked into No 10 with a staff of 3, as Secretary of State for Scotland, and walked out with a staff of 333,000, as Secretary of State for Defence.” [Appointment in 1997].
What is current Secretary of State for Scotland’s staff number? Certainly not 3!
Quick online search says, in 2011, junior staff alone was 22! It’s risen substantially since then also, I believe, as Mundell received some stick recently for the huge increase in the number of his very costly’special advisers’.
Anyone got more up to date staff count for the Scottish Office? [Defence jobs are now under 100,000].
Re;
Independent newpaper shutting down. I think they were anti Indy but,
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/scindependent3.jpg
They are ferocious British nationalists and another one bites the dust. Johnson or Johnston press own localised far right UKOK garbage like the Press and Journal, Voice of the North, so may their UKOK gods have mercy on their soul/they’ll slot right in to that seething torboy UKOK outfit.
I only just realised this, talk about seeng the wood for the trees.
The fiscal framework argument is focussed on the “no detriment” clause of the Smith Report, and specifically about the method of indexing future growth of the reduction in Barnett because of devolving the taxes.
What Unionists are doing is saying that the no detriment applies only at the point of devolution, because the Clause 95 says this: “the initial transfer of tax and/or spending powers”.
Effectively what they are doing is ignoring the part where it says:
“(a) This means that the initial devolution and assignment of tax receipts should be accompanied by a reduction in the block grant equivalent to the revenue forgone by the UK Government, and that future growth in the reduction to the block grant should be indexed appropriately.”
So since the Unionists are ignoring that part of the clause because it doesn’t suit their agenda, the counter argument could just simply be “OK, we’ll just ignore the part where it says ““future growth in the reduction to the block grant, so scrap the indexation, and scrap the future growth.
Which would mean of course that Barnett would be reduced by £11 billion for income tax, and £3 billion for 50% VAT, not just on “intitial transfer”, but forever and a day.
I’ll have some of that.
@One_Scot says: 12 February, 2016 at 7:08 am:
“Neil Findlay states that he did not understand that using the word liar in parliament is unparliamentary.” …
Findley is in a lot more bother than the MSM are leading us to believe. The thing is that from the point of view of parliamentary behaviour his insult to Nicola Sturgeon is not just personal abuse of Nicola as a person but it insults the parliament itself that elected her as it’s first Minister.
It also insults the electorate, the SNP as a party and the parliamentary system.
If Trish Marwick chooses to make an issue of it he could find himself in a lot more bother than he ever imagined.
P&J on stalled fiscal negotiations
https://archive.is/dWaCT
“We (Scot Gov) remain ready and willing to do a deal, but that depends on sticking to the Smith Commission’s no detriment principle”
“Greg Hands, the chief secretary to the Treasury, said the [latest] offer was “very generous” ”
versus
I reckon the SG will stick their ground and not concede. It will then be up to Cameron to actually stick by his Vow which said “… continuation of Barnett allocation for resources …” and Smith’s no detriment.
IMO if he doesn’t, then he has renaiged on IndyRef winning promises and that result should be declared null.
Findlay given a ‘warning’
http://archive.is/S4Wo1
EBC, STV, have abandoned any pretence they ever had of being honest, balanced and fair. They are just unionist anti Scottish propaganda units under the total control of the Londinium establishment and its minions.
If they want to be ENGLISH mouthpieces and anti Scottish that’s OK by me, just stop broadcasting your unionist PROPAGANDA in Scotland. Honest, balanced and fair? You are contemptible pathetic.
FREEDOM!
BBC 24 news have on nice Times media lady who explains that the Independent going online only will mean their 150 journos getting their P45 and rancid The Graun also doing the same as they lose £50 million a minute, day, year.
As an ex rancid The Graun buyer pf 30 years at least, who also bought into the Independent’s bleh, my Scottish heart is bleeding right the noo.
So good luck to hammer of The Scots Severin Carrell in his Scotland region, as sales plummet and they also join the Huff Post, giving you the UKOK news you already knew, three days later.
@Peter McCulloch says: 12 February, 2016 at 9:33 am:
“I read this article in the courier online and it let me no me better informed as to how this could possibly work.”
The article is total rubbish, Peter.
Here’s why.
The populations of all EU member states are all legally EU Citizens and the EU has no way to take away a citizens citizenship. On the other hand an EU member state can withdraw from the EU but it is unclear if they can force their populations to give up their EU citizenship.
The basic idea behind the EU is the protection of EU citizens.
What that simplifies as is that once joined in the EU no EU member state can take its people out of the EU against their citizen’s will, simple because they have EU Citizens rights that cannot be taken away.
Cuilean: 1.03pm All the answers you seek are here
http://caltonjock.com/2016/01/27/scottish-office-works-for-westminster-but-against-scotland/
Papadox said at 1:44 pm:-
“EBC, STV, have abandoned any pretence they ever had of being honest, balanced and fair”
I suggest they run a continuous loop at bottom of screen during ‘news’ bulletins stating:”Viewing this may endanger your democracy”.
One of the reasons people voted NO was because they didn’t want change.
If the rUK votes to leave the EU, but Scotland votes to stay in, it’s practically constitutionally certain Scotland will have Indy Ref 2, as the majority will have spoken in that EU Referendum.
In Indy Ref 2, there will not be a “no change” option. It will be either “leave the EU”, or “leave the UK.
I think once that sinks in during a ref campaign, the figure of 58% YES according to that recent poll, will have been a pessimistic one.
It will be a choice of “which change do you want”.
Jack Murphy says:
12 February, 2016 at 2:16 pm
Papadox said at 1:44 pm:-
“EBC, STV, have abandoned any pretence they ever had of being honest, balanced and fair”
Yeh , sometimes they even run an SNPBAD on alternate nights , with each taking a turn.
Reminds me of the chuckle brothers ‘ To me to You , To me to You.
SNP story to date on more powers and fiscal framework:
https://storify.com/theSNP/fiscal-framework?mc_cid=d8ab0ba93b&mc_eid=%5BUNIQID%5D&mc_cid=d8ab0ba93b&mc_eid=
Should have put this in above post:
http://www.snp.org/i_will_not_allow_scotland_to_be_shortchanged?mc_cid=d8ab0ba93b&mc_eid=
From Sturgeon, apparently published in the Record today.
If Neil Findlay had been a member of the SNP he would ALREADY be suspended and every newspaper would be running front page “Shock” “Horror” “Disgrace” front pages
Here’s the thing though, nobody elected Neil Findlay he’s a list MSP that nobody voted for yet he represents a section of society through our MSP list system which allows him to abuse the First Minister publicly in our democratically elected Parliament that he was never elected to
Maybe somebody can tell me about the suitability and screening processes of prospective candidates in order to weed out unsavoury characters and Labour Dinosaurs from the 1940s
It strikes me once again Neil Findlay’s behaviour has just been glossed over, and not for the first time,he’s been at Holyrood 5 years and knows fine well what words he can and can’t use, because (Ach well it’s only Neil again) won’t do, it’s not only the usual embarrassment for Labour, who seem to be unabashed at anything they do these days, it’s our Parliament and the calibre of who’s in it
It’s our Parliament and a reflection on us as to how the folk in it behave, all of them
Sorry O/T
How many O/T are allowed on a thread? Makes life disjointed!
Can we have an O/T thread of its own. Bet it remains blank!!
Just like Neil Findlay the britnat media in Scotland is getting more and more desperate.
OT I see the Independent newspaper will soon be internet only. A sign of things to come.
Neil Findlays display in the Scottish parliament was a massive over reaction born out of frustration.
He knows as well as we do that Labour face a second tanking in a row, the fact that the polls right now suggest labour failing to hold onto a single constituency seat must be galling for those that have brought them to this position.
That includes Findlay as well as the current leader Dugdale and former leaders, Murphy and Lamont.
Frustration is no excuse though for the behavior of an elected representative of the Scottish parliament. It is though very telling, they are destroying themselves in the eyes of the public. For what? certainly not in order to win votes.
Doubt if he would openly admit it but I’m sure that Mr Findlay will today be regretting and maybe even embarrassed by his outburst. Well, he would have to go a lot further than his pathetic apology to the Presiding officer and parliament before expecting any forgiveness from the likes of me.
@Hamish100
Perhaps Rev could post up a new OT thread every day title “Just talk amongst yourselves”.
On that topic, an interesting paragraph from Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s article:
“The SNP Holyrood manifesto should seek a mandate for a new stronger Scotland Bill – one that meets the devolutionary needs and aspirations of the Scottish people – pointing out that failure to deliver it would create another potential trigger for a second independence referendum within the term of the next parliament.”
Sounds good to me, as long as he means this coming next parliament.
@Hamish100
There already exists an O/T thread, been around for a couple of years. Mainly full of inane chat and weird music and weird posters as well as invites to the various WoS meet ups organised across Scotland. Drop in sometime and say hello 🙂
http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/
Good heavens a new blog from oor kevin where he ignores the indexation part of “no detriment”, which puts him firmly in the camp of the Tories, and only the Tories now. Who knew.
yesindyref2 says:
“One of the reasons people voted NO was because they didn’t want change.”
Yes indeed. Perhaps 30% of voters resident in Scotland ( I hesitate to give them the title Scots ) wanted/want everything to stay just the way it was, UK is OK.
Isn’t it an astonishing paradox that another chunk of people voted NO because they thought it bring a great deal of change, DevoMax within the UK.
Strange bedfellows when you look at it that way. An unstable configuration.
And, as you point out, many will have their ‘no change’ position seriously challenged over the EU.
Since a list MSP represents the Party rather than a particular group of constituents, perhaps The Presiding Officer should consider applying some sanctions to the offending party as a whole, rather than just to a single member of it who caused the offence in the first place.
yesindyref2 says:
12 February, 2016 at 2:27 pm
One of the reasons people voted NO was because they didn’t want change.
If the rUK votes to leave the EU, but Scotland votes to stay in, it’s practically constitutionally certain Scotland will have Indy Ref 2, as the majority will have spoken in that EU Referendum.
In Indy Ref 2, there will not be a “no change” option. It will be either “leave the EU”, or “leave the UK.
I think once that sinks in during a ref campaign, the figure of 58% YES according to that recent poll, will have been a pessimistic one.
It will be a choice of “which change do
As for people who voted no because they didn’t want change well what do you expect when you have all newspapers and tv networks lined up to scare the life out of them.
That’s not changed, however all the nasty things the better together lot said would happen if you voted yes have happened to both yes and no voters.
With the internet (commendations to Wings over Scotland) these facts are out there for everyone to see, in that way there has been a significant change. Older folk might not be web users but as sure as hell their children and grandchildren are well up to speed.
Revelations of newspapers illegally hacking peoples phones, public officials taking money for information, the vast amount of scum involved in these activities were not jailed. Similarly investigations into the Westminster paedophile scene seem only to expose dead perpetrators, nothing about morning cloud? Folk are fed up with establishment cover ups, not just in Scotland.
In the specific case of Scotland no apologies coming any time soon for the McCrone Report or the shift the sea boundary on the east coast between Scotland and England.
The Westminster elite will never concede to admitting their deceit to the People of Scotland. We will never forget or forgive them their injustices to Scotland.
As for EU exit it will result in IndyRef2, things have changed and Hope will triumph over fear, we will have an Independent Scotland. In regard to negotiations with the EU, NATO and little England I have absolute confidence in the Scottish Government to achieve the best for Scotland and the Scottish People. The rainbow Tories have only been interested in self interest, folk now see them for what they are, they have been exposed.
Roll on May I and my family will be voting SNP 1 X 2 and in June voting to stay in the EU. In 2017 we’ll be voting SNP and when IndyRef2 comes we’ll be voting for Scotland.
Time to raise a dram, the Saltire and the Appin Banner.
@galamcennalath
Yes. There’s another article in The National “Patrick Harvie: Brexit will make it harder to win indy” arguing the opposite, that an Indy ref from Brexit will be harder, because of the terms of EU membership from scratch (so what, CAP and regional grants will offest the so-called rebate).
He also argues that the common travel area might have to go, and the single UK trading market. I look at it this way, if the rUK leaves the EU it will need all the friends it’s got, including Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands – and Scotland. Can’t post there because my login works but doesn’t post, and I won’t do facebook (or twitter) – like ever!
He says he’s still YES which is good, and I like him, but I do wonder why some people in YES are so pessimistic at times. They’d probably call it “realism”, but I disagree.
@James Barr Gardner
I think so too James, people in Scotland have woken up which was the reason Indy Ref 1 had to be over nearly 3 years, absolutely had to. Indy Ref 2 can be a lot shorter, 6 months if that, maybe even less, I think more like 3 months gives enought time to join all the dots, and the preparatory work on legislation and voting has been done.
Call Indy Ref 2, vote YES, get out of jail free. Pass Go and collect £200!
@Robert Peffers says:
12 February, 2016 at 1:51 pm
Yes Robert I thought that as too when I first
read it, I would like to know who those
anonymous so called so Senior EU officials are
who claim that the rules would allow Scotland
to remain in the EU even if the rest of the UK
left.
@yesindyref2
I think the options should be:
Remain in the EU
Leave the UK
Simpler & Quicker to count the result.
Hamish100 & Thepnr
OT
I would miss the OT comments appearing in the normal thread. They are usually a little surprise to enliven a serious and sometimes heavy debate, and often they bring breaking news to our attention.
Anyway I would never bother to log into a site of undiluted OT comments.
The benefits of a no vote
http://caltonjock.com/2016/02/12/westminster-promises-how-did-you-spend-your-referendum-bonus-last-year/
@Robert Peffers,
I think it is the case that when Greenland left the EU all their citizens all remained EU citizens as there is no mechanism to remove EU citizenship from them.
Hence a further reason why Scotland would not have been kicked out of Europe as it is very difficult to do.
However, negotiations on the exit of the UK from the EU will be very problematic as I am sure many millions of UK residents and ex-pats will not be too happy about losing EU citizenship and the rights it entails.
Maybe that is why the Tories are so keen on dropping the ECHR.
So interesting times ahead.
I have never really rated David Cameron as he never fully realises the consequences of what is doing.
Perhaps that is a good thing as it will result in Independence for Scotland.
@Fireproofjim
O/T posts are always welcome on the main thread including by myself. as long as they don’t come too soon after the Rev has just posted the article.
You are right in that they can keep a thread alive through introducing new items of news for disussion. The “official” Off topic thread arose mainly because when things became boring and there was not much happening someone would pop up and play maybe a favourite bit of music.
this became too distracting for the more serious topics and discussions going on. So see when you have had a bellyful of BUM propaganda or listening to Dugdale, Osbourne or Cameron.
Well you can take leave of absence and pop over to Off Topic to see if anything is going on, if not start your own topic.
It’s therapeutic in it’s own way 🙂 A place to let off steam, have a laugh, celebrate or commiserate. It is truly off topic.
Hoss
Basically they will lose lots of ‘foreign’, healthy EU citizens of working age and get back loads of retired UK citizens together with their health and social care needs.
Great plan,eh?
Dan Huil says:
12 February, 2016 at 3:33 pm
OT I see the Independent newspaper will soon be internet only. A sign of things to come.
Ruby replies
That’s interesting! Eventually all newspapers will do likewise which means everyone will be getting their info from the internet which is a very good thing.
After May when we give the yoons a beating, that they will never forget. We will probably have a Britexit in June, unless Cameron bottles out of holding the referendum. Scotland has the chance of freedom that we should seize with both hands. We do not need the yoons to misrepresent our country in the world. It is time we stood on our own two feet and presented Scotland as a independent member of the European union and we will decide about NATO at a later date. Freedom awaits, it is up to us if we are willing to take it!
Re deal or no deal
https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/john-swinney-makes-further-offer-fiscal-framework
The Indy Ref EU debate was something I watched closely from Lord Tugendhat’s letter to Barroso to Crawford & Boyles legal advice and my conclusion was that we were being well and truly conned.
I am now suffering from EU fatigue and I can understand why posters might be tempted to post off topic.
If the EU referendum debate is going to be as lacking in definitive information as the Indy Ref EU debate then I think I will be giving it a miss.
I think Findlay has a cast iron defence.
I’m sure he doesn’t know the meaning of a lot of words!
In spite of a long running campaign to fly The Saltire from Edinburgh Castle our colonial masters continue to flaunt The Butcher’s Apron at us.
They insist that it must be flown as The Castle is a military establishment.
I couldn’t help noticing on the BBCSNPbad lunchtime news a report from Cardiff re tomorrow’s international. The location was Cardiff Castle and flying proudly from the castle tower was The Welsh National Flag.
It’s time to up the pressure to have The Saltire Flying from Edinburgh Castle. Just how many MOD personnel are based at The Castle – don’t tell me they couldn’t easily and more efficiently be located at Redford or Dreghorn.
O/T, however noted the “wry smiles “between Sally Magnasson and Jamie Macivor ” ( misreporting Scotland)looking forward to the possibility of a college lecturers strike ” just ahead of the upcoming Holyrood election. My “heard bleeds” for the ” hard done by ” academics . There is always the “food bank option ” if they can’t make ends meet.
Also, noted the FOC “British army” recruitment propaganda piece incorporated into the
Scotland vWales rugby international ( very appropriate as regards the” front line” participants in both rugby and the military”.)
@ Dr Jim says at 3:20 pm … ” ….. It strikes me once again Neil Findlay’s behaviour has just been glossed over, and not for the first time, he’s been at Holyrood 5 years and knows fine well what words he can and can’t use, because (Ach well it’s only Neil again) won’t do, it’s not only the usual embarrassment for Labour, who seem to be unabashed at anything they do these days. It’s our Parliament and a reflection on us as to how the folk in it behave, all of them.”
Of course he knows ‘fine well’ and if you ask me this was orchestrated just like their last ‘James Kelly …. ”I’m not going to sit down. I’ll not sit down”’ fiasco.
Slab were just waiting for Nicola Sturgeon to point out that those earning £11,000 and over would be taxed at a higher rate and if she did so someone had been designated or probably volunteered to shout ‘liar’. The very fact that more than one person shouted ‘liar’ tells you that this had been discussed and planned beforehand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU0FXK2yNt8
This came about because they reckon that a £100 rebate (another hairbrained scheme) would cover tax loss experienced by anyone earning between £11,000 and £20,000. We know (and they know too) that this is utter rubbish … more than anything totally impractical / impossible to administer.
Kezia Dugdale in trying to con everyone, once again, into backing an ill-thought through proposal … tax hike for all … stated at FMQs that ”there was clear evidence from independent experts that her party’s proposals are fair and workable … and that is why council after council leader has backed it. This is why union leader after union leader has said it is fair. That is the truth that the First Minister cannot escape.”
No mention of course that the views of the SLab CABAL are not in line with the general public with the Mori Ipsos poll showing that at least 64% don’t agree with them. They seem to be blind to the fact that if they want to get anywhere at all (put a halt to the terminal rot) they need the votes of the millions or even hundreds of thousands of men and women on the street. The support, votes, of a handful of wee Labour toon cooncillors and union leaders aint going to get them anywhere. That is the TRUTH that Kezia Dugdale cannot escape.
Their disgusting, ridiculous theatricals and cherry picking of data is a sure sign of them being totally desperate, probably depressed and anxious, that not only will they be hammered by the SNP in May but may be overtaken by the Tories. More than anything they are relying on the SCUM monitoring FMQs and cherry picking too …. which they do … such as STV broadcasting Dugdale waving a 186 page document of agencies (how many?) that are experiencing cuts with no mention of course of Westminster cutting the Scottish budget (austerity) which Labour supported.
SLab seem to be living in a wee bubble. A wee bubble that they float around in palavering with likeminded individuals such as SLab councillors and Union leaders. They don’t seem to realise that more than half of the Scottish population can’t stand them …. detest them in fact (Independence and Tory supporters). And that many of the remaining, even if they have no idea that SLabs policies have more holes in them than a sieve, are absolutely disgusted with their behaviour in Holyrood.
They don’t seem to realise either, being so insular, blinkered and ignorant, that there’s a big old World beyond our shores and that many eyes are focused on our Parliament. Closer to home the Finish Ambassador Paivi Luostarinen witnessed the debacle first hand. Do they not realise that they are turning Holyrood into a Micky Mouse cartoon set? Highlighting clearly the differences between the SNP and Labour: the first highly respected professionals .. the latter contemptuous clowns. Forget about Keir Hardie. Individuals like Smith, Dewar and Cook must be turning in their graves.
Their behaviour is absolutely reprehensible, on every count, and I for one am not going to sit back and watch them make a laughing stock of our Parliament and additionally see my hard earned money, taxes (which they want to raise), being used in the process to pay the wages of people like Findlay and Kelly. Cut out the orchestrated STUNTS, BUCK UP or GET OUT ASAP.
I wouldn’t trust Labour led councils, in particular, to admminister any rebate scheme.
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/People/fairerscotland/scottishwelfarefund/Mythbusting-theScottishWelfareFund
Seems to be the most obvious way of how you would go about getting one. So Labour’s grand idea seems to consist of the lower paid ditching their pride and going on the welfare for money Labour took from them in the first place.
@Nana
In theory that actually looks a bit worrying, but I trust Swinney.
On this OT subject, looking at the timeline of heed’s slovenian girlfriend (I think he’s who’s meant), there’s this in two tweets:
“At its core, no detriment is about aligning powers with risks and responsibilities. That is, governments should carry the risks associated with their policies, just as they enjoy the benefits that may accrue from them.”
1. no detriment is about no detriment – no harm or damage.
2. Sturgeon made it very clear that the ScotGov weren’t looking for no detriment if SG used the powers, to the contrary they were wanting no detriment if the powers weren’t used at all and Scotland kept exactly the same tax policies as the UK.
So the Tories are trying to wriggle, like the worms they are.
Re. Slab….every time one of their msps has the temerity to show face in a public forum..just yell ‘liar’ at them.
Because that’s what the whole rotten stinking bunch of them are….tory collaborating lying scum…See how they like it..
I totally agree with Petra . The yoons are in decline and it hurts.
Point of information – go O/T on a main thread after it has run for a bit, but the O/T room exists as a social club for fun, do please drop by if you want to.
@gus1940
The Welsh aren’t a threat to Yookay Imperialism so they could fly flags with jumping monkeys on them nobody would care
It’s the last remnants of power since (you can’t wear kilts)
(you can’t speak Gaelic) (you can’t carry weapons)(you can’t have gatherings)(clearances) (Prima Nocta) which they claim there is no evidence for (funny that) just everything else, coz that’s OK
Same sort of stuff they used on Ireland,Imposition of power, that worked out well, the Irish liked that a lot
http://caltonjock.com/2016/02/12/browns-plans-for-scotland-post-a-no-vote-in-the-referendum-not-honoured-or-delivered/
The yoons must be absolutely shiting themselves, May is looming and they have no answers. The yoon world is ending!
Interesting STV running with the Farmers convention two nights in a row, taking thier cue from Ruth Davidson on Thursday @ FMQ’s.
Seemes they’re backing the Tories after all.
Didn’t notice Alex Johnstone bumping his gums aboot it tho, strange since he’s a farmer I believe.
Does anyone know if the subsidies they’ve been moaning about not receivibg are the same subs the Tories handed out to their pals in the South East?
@FairFerfochen
I don’t know much about it all to be honest but I spotted this earlier today.
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Farming-hardship-scheme-2286.aspx
Did stv mention this hardship fund?
Ayae Nana, they did but as usual played it down.
Also mentioned something about the IT system being late and payments promised by December.
Showed a packed audience of perturbed looking fairmers.
Expecting “Vote Ruthie” hoardings across the fields any day now.
Just thinking, if the Tories kept Scotland’s share of the EU subs that would leave a black hole for the SG to mitigate would it not?
Not heard anyone mention this a a possible cause of the crisis up to now.
I’m on my IPad so can’t post links.
From what I can recall Westminster held onto money, an EU subsidy, that should have been awarded to Scottish farmers ….. 230 million euros? At the time Angus Robertson stated that if we had our own representative at the EU we would have received a Billion euros. Better Together right enough, eh?
@FairFerfochen
Misreporting the standard practice from the media then as usual.
I remember something from last year about Westminster withholding EU farming subsidies. Would not surprise me one little bit if they still were.
Surely there’s a market for ‘E.U. Jimmy’ hats?
(See what I did there, eh, dae ye? Eh?)
As a city boy,could someone explain why we have to subsidise farmers,
it seems like taking from the poor to give to the rich.
According to the EU CAP tables
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/CAP/CAPEurope10112012/EU-CAP-Funding-League-Tables
Scotland gets the least in all of Europe.
Westminster seemingly did the deal “for us”.
Scott Finlayson @ 10.03
I think it has something to do with our need to eat.
As a city boy how much of your own food do you grow?
Help build a Scottish island community deprived of building land by nasty foreign registered estates
https://www.justgiving.com/ulvaferryhousing/
@FairFerfochen
Westminster seemingly did the deal
Well that explains it, doing Scotland down at every turn.
I wonder if the farmers are aware of this or do they choose to believe the tories.
Scottish farmers don’t just get less than any other country in Europe, they get less than the legal minimum.
That can only happen because Scotland is a region of an EU state and not a member EU state in its own right.i.e. the UK Government gets to decide how it is divvied up internally.
If Scotland became an independent country and a member of the EU the CAP entitlement for Scottish farmers would automatically increase by at least 50%.
Therefore development grants from the EU which the UK qualified for largely because of Scotland’s large area of less favoured land did not go to Scotland only but also went to farmers with fully developed land in the South of England. Furthermore the grant rate that grant was given out there was at twice the per acre rate Scottish farmers got.
Scottish farmer’s anger at the Scottish Government is misplaced, however whether for historical tory-farmer identity reasons or for successful information management by the NFU, farmers still by and large appear, as far as I have judged here in Angus, to be unionists.
As the Yanks say. Go figure.
The concept being talked about is that as not all the territory of a member state need be included in the EU. The thing is that even should the only part of the UK in the EU be Scotland Cameron and Westminster would still insist on representing the UK there. I’d fully expect if Wales and NI voted to stay they’d be included in the EU zone in order to make that slightly more credible.
Orders for new Land Rovers are on hold (for the moment).Call me cynical
I know a few farmers, Poor? my heart bleeds.
Anyone on here know a genuinely “poor” farmer?
Correct me please.
Some blew it in 2014.They believed Ruthie “check oot ma gun turrets” Davidson, and her inbred yoony leaders.
You reap what you sow.
@Legerwood
Thanks for that explanation,if somewhat over-elaborate,
farmers have a commodity which I pay them for,and then they get paid again by taxpayer(me),
maybe some one else could take a stab at explaining why?
@ Scot Finlayson @ 10:03
Scot many Scottish farmers really struggle between one thing and another … supermarkets and milk comes to mind. However some of the richest people in the UK who own ‘farms’ in Scotland … aristocracy who historically have ‘inherited’ often through ‘dirty dealing’ …. usually against us Scots …. also claim. Brass neck or what?
Time for the Clearances … Part 2.
An interesting short film here;
http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/
@chic
“Scottish farmer’s anger at the Scottish Government is misplaced”
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Euro-billion-jackpot-for-rural-Scotland-dec.aspx
Or maybe they wernae listening…
Maybe Ruthie Jong un should look at the big picture.
Her boss, Pig Fuc*er Dave, has cut the subsidies on wind farms, the farmers who own big estates have benefited greatly from this subsidy.
Dave has shafted the very people who support him.
The simple answer?
Blame the SNP at every opportunity.
SNPx2
Re the perturbed farmers, did a little ‘digging’ and came up with turnips [yoon variety]
https://twitter.com/MrMalky/status/698273468253630464
https://twitter.com/MrMalky/status/698273603087892480
Mr Malky is brilliant, he has compiled a list of tory donors http://politicalpartyfeeders.blogspot.co.uk/
@Chic McGregor
Yes, there was a convergence supplement given to the UK on CAP because Scotland was far lower per acre than the rest of the EU, and it should have gone every penny of it to Scottish farmers for Pillar 1 and Pillar 2. But the Scottish Office agreed with the other 3 parts of the Union that it be split 4 ways, with Scotland getting just one-quarter. This results in a loss of €187 million to Scottish farmers and the Scottish economy over the six year convergence period.
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/CAP/CAPEurope10112012/budget-facts31102012
It was Alistair Carmichael signed off on that.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-cap-allocations-announced
“Alistair Carmichael, Secretary of State for Scotland, said:
This announcement is the latest confirmation that Scottish farmers get a better deal on CAP as part of the United Kingdom.”
No, it was then the latest confirmation that Scottish farmers get screwed as a part of the Disfunctional Kingdom, and a bigger lie than the one he got found out on in court.
In fairness though as was pointed out to me, many farmers are tenant farmers and were pro YES, but the landowners put the NO Thanks signs in the fields. Who knows.
@Scot Finlayson,
The Cap website explains it longwindedly thus
“The CAP’s budget is spent in 3 different ways:
Income support for farmers and assistance for complying with sustainable agricultural practices: farmers receive direct payments, provided they live up to strict standards relating to food safety, environmental protection and animal health and welfare. These payments are fully financed by the EU, and account for 70% of the CAP budget. Under the June 2013 reform, 30% of direct payments will be linked to European farmers’ compliance with sustainable agricultural practices which are beneficial to soil quality, biodiversity and the environment generally, such as crop diversification, the maintenance of permanent grassland or the preservation of ecological areas on farms.
Market-support measures: these come into play, for example, when adverse weather conditions destabilise markets. Such payments account for less than 10% of the CAP budget.
Rural development measures: these are intended to help farmers modernise their farms and become more competitive, while protecting the environment, contributing to the diversification of farming and non-farming activities and the vitality of rural communities. These payments are part-financed by the member countries, generally extend over a number of years, and account for some 20% of the CAP’s budget.
These three areas are closely interrelated and must be managed coherently. For example, direct payments provide farmers with a steady income and reward them for providing environmental benefits which are in the public interest. Likewise, rural development measures make it easier to modernise farms while encouraging diversification of activities in rural areas.”
Many farmers in Scotland are tenants, not landowners. They work the land for the benefit of the estate owners and to help feed us of course.
I guess centuries of doffing your cap will affect some, I’d like to see this change, the majority barely earn much more than the minimum wage and that’s for working from dawn till dusk.
Many of the largest owners are not from the UK, those that are have been in control of their land right from 1707 and that is why they are still there.
http://www.highlandclearances.co.uk/clearances/postclearances_whoownsscotland.htm
I am not a farmer but neither do I like to pigeonhole anyone.
@Gary45%. I can show you a few tenant hill farmers in the Borders and Cumberland who are on the bones of their arse.
Don’t fall for the stereotype – not all farmers are rolling in it although many still have a feudal mindset but that’s just a by-product of the feudal system.
Given the average age of a farmer is now pushing 60,I doubt if their voting in the referendum was much different to people in other walks of life.A lot of those who voted No won’t be feeling much “better together” now though.
Petra
You can post links using (locked down devices like iPad), just hover, ie hold yr finger on the browser bar, (or whatever it is you want to copy n paste) select, ‘copy’ then go to wherever you need to paste it in, hold yr finger on that bit of the page again and click, ‘paste’. It is a pain, but can be done.
Legerwood@10.08
.re city living and growing food, it is poss to grow most of your own veg on a full size allotment plot in fact, for 3-4 people. Many of ours are now half plots due to lack of land available,
( even with sooo much land doing nothing in Scotland) so it’s very intensive, hence more disease, pests etc). I just wish more folks, in fact most, would grow fruit at least, if not veg in their gardens. It’s what the ‘landed gentry’ had the poor do for them, and still do, all organic, hence their longevity, the rich, not the veg).
Why the heck do more people not grow blackcurrants, red currants, gooseberries, veg etc, fed up seeing veg n fruit from in the shops, and much of it from abroad. We should be growing much much more in Scotland. It really is essential. Still, bought some good Scottish potatoes today, not organic but nice enough.
Ps, paving over your garden should be frowned upon, and plastic grass, it’s a crime.
There is a Land Reform Bill going through our Parliament,
http://tinyurl.com/zcek993
there are suggestions that it has been hijacked by lobbyists paid for by the big landlords,
There is also a Lobbying (Scotland) Bill,
http://tinyurl.com/o59mpjy
`Lobbying` where those unelected but with money hire people to influence our elected government.
Be careful not to get mixed up with WORKING farmers and GENTLEMAN TORY FARMERS! AKA Barron, Laird, Landed gentry. Backbone of the conservative and unionist party.
This is funny. The labour blog, having discovered IPPR Scotland has this on it:
“IPPR have confirmed that our tax plans are fair:
“Our analysis shows that [under Scottish Labour’s plans] the poorest 30 per cent of households would see increases in income under these proposals, with the richest paying significantly more than now (up to an additional £1,040 per year in the wealthiest 10 per cent of households).””
What IPPR Scotland actually said:
“Scottish Labour is also proposing to increase income tax in Scotland by 1p across the tax bands. However, they are also proposing a £100 payment or rebate for those earning £20,000 or less. There is a separate debate over whether and how this can be implemented, but for our purposes we have assumed it is administratively feasible. Our analysis shows that the poorest 30 per cent of households would see increases in income under these proposals, with the richest paying significantly more than now (up to an additional £1,040 per year in the wealthiest 10 per cent of households).“
@ ArtyHetty says at 11:38 pm ….. ”Petra .. You can post links using (locked down devices like iPad), just hover, ie hold yr finger on the browser bar, (or whatever it is you want to copy n paste) select, ‘copy’ then go to wherever you need to paste it in, hold yr finger on that bit of the page again and click, ‘paste’. It is a pain, but can be done.”
Thanks ArtyHetty I’ll try that.
Rather than post links and stuff, the keywords are “Scottish Farmer” (the magazine), “cap” and “convergence” plus also “NFUS”. I followed it at the time via the Herald. It appears to be under review, perhaps because of a complaint by the NFUS to the European Commission, and that it’s a better minister than Owen Paterson. Recent article is this:
http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/mobile/news/defra-promises-convergence-review-this-year.28406234
Yes, working farmers rather than “lards”.
Petra, good hope it works, you can also do that spell check/correct thing by holding your finger on the word, sounds basic I know, but takes a bit of practice. It gives you a choice to replace the word etc. Click, ‘select’ if in doubt.
It took me ages to learn to double click quickly on the arrow key, that it will give you caps lock etc. Still make loads of typos…Only reason I like the ipad, is it’s quick, my son is attempting to use his new tablet using linux, it’s doable, apparently!
This is completely O/T but GOLD has just been discovered in Millport according to BBC Teletext
Wouldn’t normally be worth mentioning but it seems the find is in substantial quantities
Probably be really bad for Scotlands economy though like oil
Is Our Society Democratic? https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/is-our-society-democratic/
@Dr Jim, Millport and Arran are two favourite gold panning sites for people wanting to contribute to our countries demise.
On another area, anyone mentioning UDI is always jumped upon here but what about some recent instances such as the Baltic States or East Germany? They seemed fairly bloodless when they tossed out their landlords.
@ArtyHetty.
I’m right with you re growing your own.
I have next to hee haw space in my garden but I could at least grow blackcurrants for my breakfast porridge!
@ Dr Jim says at 12:14 am ….”This is completely O/T but GOLD has just been discovered in Millport according to BBC Teletext. Wouldn’t normally be worth mentioning but it seems the find is in substantial quantities.”
DAMMIT! I was in the process of buying a wee butt and ben there last year when it fell through. I’m still looking but no doubt the darn southerners will take over the whole island before you can say Union Jack and the prices will go right through the roof.
@Petra
from the Largs & Millport weekly news:
Professor John Parnell from the School of Geosciences: “While there is certainly no prospect of a modern-day gold rush in Millport, this analysis is helping us to understand unusual circumstances where gold can be formed, which in the future may even lead to discoveries that are commercially viable.”
You’ll be fine!
I’m heading up the Campsie Hills with my tin plate, or maybe just put two quid on the lottery to improve my “Prospects”
Goodnight
Apparently, in last week’s Ayrshire Post, Gold has been discovered in Straiton, about 30 minutes drive south of Ayr.
When they take it all away and give us fuck all, that’ll be the Pooling and Sharing/Feeling the Love/No Borders and what ever else they shat out of their anuses in September 2014. Can’t you feel a renditioning of Rule Britannia rising in your breasts?…nah, me neither.
Stephen.
O/t. Scottish farmers hit by delays to eu payments are to be offered loans by the sg. Only 40% of farmers have received their cap claims. Nfu.scotland said it was ‘imperative’ the new fund was delivered quickly. Just a thought, why dont the ‘better together ” nfu scotland ask westminster to quickly ‘deliver’ the fund.
@michael diamond
I think CAP is now devolved, the negotiations are with Westminster, but the distribution is Holyrood. There’s been IT problems (surprise surprise), and to be honest the SG has been slow with this fund. If they can’t get paid by computer, there’s always a chequebook and provisionals.
Yesindyref, just p****s me of when everyone blames the sg who operate with one arm tied behind their backs.
Up home this week visiting family, what an atmosphere, what a people, and what a country. Scotland! What the hell are you frightened of? Go for it.
@michael diamond
They’re good but not perfect. They do their best with one arm tied behind their backs!
@ JLT says at 5:47 am ….. ”RE: The argument over what is a ‘State‘ and what is a ‘Nation‘.”
What an absolutely brilliant post JLT and thanks so very much for taking the time to post the information on here. Extremely interesting indeed over and above the basic clarification of the terms ‘State’ and ‘Nation’.
As I read through your post I thought to myself ‘YES’ this is exactly how it feels to be a Scot …. an Independence supporter …. but then I realised that many Unionists would (maybe) relate to the following too especially in light of World Wars 1 and 2.:
”A nation is a soul, a spiritual principle. Two things, which in truth are but one, constitute this soul or spiritual principle. One lies in the past, one in the present. One is the possession in common of a rich legacy of memories; the other is present-day consent, the desire to live together, the will to perpetuate the value of the heritage that one has received in an undivided form. Human beings, I tell you, are not made overnight. The nation, like the individual, is the culmination of a long past of endeavours, sacrifice, and devotion.”
I reread your post and when I read the following it helped make sense of my drive, absolute obsession, for achieving Independence and endorsed my total lack of feeling for being part of the Union at all. The love for my country, my ancestors, the sound of the bagpipes, the sight of the kilt, my concern for my children and Scotlands future runs through my heart and soul … through my very bones.
”Of all cults, that of the ancestors is the most legitimate, for our ancestors have made us what we are. A heroic past, great men, glory (by which I understand genuine glory), this is the social capital upon which one bases a national idea. To have common glories in the past and to have a common will in the present; to have performed great deeds together, to wish to perform still more – these are the essential conditions for being a people. We love in proportion to the sacrifices to which we have consented, and in proportion to the ills we have suffered. We love the house we have built and handed down.”
Scotland has a MOST heroic past. The bravest of soldiers and the greatest adventurers pre the Acts of Union, and thereafter of course, however all that went on in Scotland before 1707 has been historically ‘quashed’ by Westminster. Our history has been distorted by one historian after another. Facts have been omitted or doctored and persons of great note have been downgraded or have disappeared from the frame altogether.
After losing at Culloden the Scots were banned from wearing tartan and yet when poor (many penniless and starving) Scots were recruited to fight in the American War of Independence they were forced to wear the tartan and play the pipes. The blatant hypocracy … and nothing has changed! In recruiting the Scots Westminster hoped to clear Scotland of all fighting men through death or through resettlement elsewhere … another ‘clearance’.
In the MANY wars thereafter, including the 1st and 2nd World Wars the Scots made up AT LEAST 25% of the UK fighting forces, the absolute backbone of UK forces, and were often used as cannon fodder at the front line … or even just left behind, totally dispensable, and with no support.
As one example in 1940 Churchill dictated that the 51st Highland Division should maintain a rear guard action, hold back the Germans, to ensure that hundreds of thousands of troops could escape from Dunkirk. The Scots were left behind fighting against all odds at St Valery…. ill-equipped, outgunned and with no RAF support … and when they made for the beach found that the last ship had left for home. Thousands died and / or were marched off to POW camps. 300,000 troops were saved including 110,000 French soldiers. Much was made of the ‘success’ of D Day. Little was ever said about the Scots. One of whom totally dispensable … who died there …. was an ancestor of mine.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13411989.After_Dunkirk__Churchill_abandoned_the_Highlanders_at_St__Valery/
. http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13199252.Scots_were_mourning_dead_of_St_Valery_while_rest_of_Britain_was_celebrating_Dunkirk/
’51st Highland Division Saint Valerie-en-Caux 1940′
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQp8fHkBJqc
To my mind being part of this Union has produced no ‘common glories’ at all. The Scots have been and are still being USED. As to the present time there is ‘no common will’. There was no ‘common will’ for the Union when the ordinary Scots were sold out in 1707 and 300 hundred years later there’s still no common will to continue to be part of this despicable, inequitable, war-mongering Union.
More than anything this resonates:
”I spoke just now of ‘having suffered together’ and, indeed, suffering in common unifies more than joy does. Where national memories are concerned, griefs are of more value than triumphs, for they impose duties, and require a common effort. A nation is therefore a vast solidarity, constituted by the feeling of the sacrifices that one has made in the past and of those that one is prepared to make in the future.”
Scotland has had a GREAT deal to grieve about especially in considering the past with the might (numbers) of a country, England, determined to destroy us in every possible way such as, our sense of self, identity, language, community, economy and culture. They don’t want us to remember our past. They don’t want us to grieve for our common people who suffered so much or our ‘heroes’. They don’t want us to be known as a separate entity and how it must stick in their craw that they haven’t managed to brainwash us at all …. quash our spirit, intellect or inventiveness such as the latest news of the Scots part in the gravitational wave discovery.
Westminster has done everything in its power to erase OUR history and in turn attempted to force us, through using propaganda techniques, to be proud of being part of the Union, such as you say JLT, that encompasses having a Royal Family, English traditions, war memorials, marches, flags and anthems … and fighting shoulder to shoulder in one war after another … for what?
‘’As Renan stated ‘Where national memories are concerned, griefs are of more value than triumphs’ (Culloden, Flodden, the Famines of the late 1800’s)…when was the last time the British State remembered its griefs?”
In a couple of hours time (5am) it will be the 324th anniversary of the Massacre of Glencoe. An act of terror .. cowardly murder of men, women, children and babes in arms … by the ‘State’ against the occupants of a ‘Nation’: MY Nation and I for one haven’t forgotten.
‘MacIain (Chief of the MacDonalds) of Glencoe’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Z8lMQJpac
‘The Glencoe Massacre.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IXebqFyj0A
‘John Dalrymple, Master of Stair, had planned the murders. The orders to kill the MacDonalds of Glencoe had been signed by King William. As word of the massacre spread the Government tried to cover up what had happened. Eventually, in 1695, King William had to launch an enquiry. The Master of Stair resigned his offices and was given a Government pension (THEN promoted). Robert Campbell of Glenlyon died in poverty a year later. No-one was ever brought to trial.’
Meanwhile the Dalrymple family are still doing well for themselves … with their Castles and Estates in Scotland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalrymple,_14th_Earl_of_Stair
Dr Jim
“Probably be really bad for Scotlands economy though like oil”
Wrong kind of gold? huh just our luck next we’ll strike the wrong kind of copper/diamonds/silver/………
We’d as well giving it to “The Man” to dispose of for us, save us the trouble.
Re gold.
Scotland has quite a lot of gold at various sites including Tyndrum, Leadhills/Wanlochead, Loch Rannoch, St. Mary’s Loch and Kildonan/Suisgill to name a well known few. There are others us goldpanners prefer to keep quiet about.
The Milport find is interesting as it could be a primary source and in concentrated rather than alluvial or geologically reworked secondary deposits.
From what little info there is in the public domain I don’t see there being a goldrush anytime soon. Might be worth taking a microscope and looking at some of the old red sandstone Glasgow tennaments though.
Just for interest, my good lady has a ring I made from the Wanlochead area and my own ring I made from Tyndrum. I have also made rings for some other folk. The Assay Office in Edinburgh hallmarked them.
Lets keep it simple.
Scottish farmers get awarded a good deal from EU.
This has to be paid via WM.
WM keeps 75% of it. MSM don’t report this, as that would help SNP publicity.
Farmers, Scottish public ( who still read daily redcoat ) blame SNP.
Slab, Storie, Slibdems, sicken with their avoidance of this issue.
SNP x 2
ArtHetty @ 11.38
People don’t want gardens nowadays. Even the most expensive houses now have very small gardens and the owners most definitely don’t grow vegetabl.
The ground around blocks of flats is usually grassed to make it easier to maintain but even if gardens and communal ground around flats were planted with vegetables cities and towns cannot feed themselves. They still need farmers.
Those who have allotments realise quite quickly what farmers have to contend with year in year out but on a much larger scale. Too wet at the wrong time, too cold, late frost or too dry, pests and diseass. That farmers contend with combinations of these year in year out and still wring a crop out of the ground then face a collapse in prices or are screwed to the floor by the supermarkets makes you wonder why they keep at it.
jdman,
I remember when I was sitting my Higher History away back in 1990/91 that a fellow student uttered, “Scotland has the wrong kind of oil”, whilst the teacher amid more than half the class applauded him. My reply? This was less than a month after the invasion of Kuwait by the West, so maybe mid March 1991, “Ok then, Why don’t we do what the Iraqi’s did, and blow the fuckers up”.
Brainwashed yoons then, brainwashed yoons now. They actually believed this guff.
Stephen.
O/T links
https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/101524/uk-government-accused-of-building-bridge-for-industry-on-the-cheap/
http://www.waterpowermagazine.com/news/newswork-to-start-on-136-million-scottish-hydro-scheme-4809554
http://tommyballgovan.blogspot.ie/2016/02/parry-snotter-and-chamber-of-goons.html?m=1
http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/456691/peak-politics-for-bbc-as-parliament-channel-reels-in-record-number-of-viewers.
http://electoral-reform.org.uk/blog/more-lords-fewer-mps
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/02/12/osborne-freezes-public-sector-pay-taxpayers-fund-pay-rise-mps/
http://mollymep.org.uk/2016/02/12/greens-unpack-tax-dodge-scam-by-ikea/
https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/maximus-has-falsified-results-of-fitness-for-work-tests
interesting links, Nana, thanks.
the url for the Total politics article did not work. Here it is
http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/456691/peak-politics-for-bbc-as-parliament-channel-reels-in-record-number-of-viewers.thtml
Stephen
Show off, higher history! 🙂
I remember when at school we discovered oil, their as I remember a great deal of enthusiasm, I also remember my Dad going to a SNP meeting in the church hall, he asked if we became independent would we be run by all the lords again, the common currency then that the SNP were tartan tories. He was a official in NALGO and said the a the Labour Party, I don’t remember it being decked in tartan then, would make the workers better off due to all the oil.
Then would you believe I started hearing at school that it was the wrong type of oil, and it was so expensive to obtain, and that Britain had to let Americans do it because they knew what they were doing.
They tucking knew what they were doing alright! Remember the head of texaco I think saying he treats Scotland like a third world country, remember who did the oil deal. Fucking labour, and where are the leaders of the Labour Party Scotland third devision now. The fucking house of fucking lords!
Fucking bastads the lot of them.
Yooons like being fucked by lords, they bend over gladly for their so called betters.
The rest of us know, and it doesn’t matter if we have been aware of our status as abused for decades like the old guys in the SNP, or have just found out our special relationship with those who abuse us today , so a call out to the old guard, embrace the new members, they have the passionate anger of the converted, and the strength of the body of Scotland driving at their soul!
Well Anddrew I’m glad to see someone who knows how to use the word ‘fucking’ in its entirely appropriate context as applied to that shower of fucking bastard Labour party so called socialists back in the day who ended up taking the fucking shilling from the establishment whilst fucking over the people of Scotland as a by product of their great industry of making sure ‘they were awright’ on their way ‘up’ in the world. Fuckers one and all.
Let’s continue with our removal of them from the political landscape of Scotland. Hurrah!
@cirsium
Thanks for fixing. I laughed when I read that link, seems Scotland is indeed watching.
o/t:
https://daisycollinsblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/the-scottish-parliament-a-model-political-assembly/
Well said Petra 13 February, 2016 at 3:34 am.
I have been saying that for years. No great mischief if they fall.
Employ them for a few bob a week, if they win, great, send them somewhere else. If they win AND die, double bonus. The Jocks have done your dirty work, and won’t be coming back from Africa, Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Crimea, Belgium, Spain etc to procreate more little Jocks thus leaving more lebensraum for shooting, grazing sheep, whatever.
A friend of mine’s father (now long dead, of course) was captured with the 51st. Came from Dunoon.
@Petra
I have to let you know how very moved I was watching and listening to the YouTube vid about the 51st Highlanders. I really sobbed listening to the song. I have to tell you how angry I feel because I was never aware or told of this absolutely disgraceful tragedy. Thank you for that.
What a disgusting union this is…I cannot wait to see my country free. Let’s clear them out of our lives!
SNP x2
Technically it could work but then the non-EU parts of the UK would be put in the same category as the overseas territories.
The UK, Dutch, French and Danish all have territories outside of the EU with the French and UK also having some included. France even has territories in South and Central America in the EU.
Highly unlikely but not impossible.
The conclusion that Liddle draws out from Prof Douglas-Scott’s work is diametrically opposite to her actual conclusion which is:
“However, it is nonetheless the case that, if the UK proposed to radically alter its relationship with the EU then the Scottish Parliament could potentially veto any changes proposed by the UK Parliament that had a profound impact on its competences. These could include any changes resulting from the withdrawal of EU membership, which would have a significant impact on the competences of the Scottish Parliament.”
Take a look at http://scottisheconomicanalysisunit.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/never-mind-the-quality-feel-the-width/ which is a follow-up article based on Wings Over Scotland bringing the matter to our attention in the first place.
@ Glesca Keelie says at 6:11 pm …”Well said Petra 13 February, 2016 at 3:34 am. I have been saying that for years. No great mischief if they fall. Employ them for a few bob a week, if they win, great, send them somewhere else. If they win AND die, double bonus. The Jocks have done your dirty work, and won’t be coming back from Africa, Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Crimea, Belgium, Spain etc to procreate more little Jocks thus leaving more lebensraum for shooting, grazing sheep, whatever. A friend of mine’s father (now long dead, of course) was captured with the 51st. Came from Dunoon.
Glesca Keelie you’re spot on. Westminster has USED the BRAVE Scots for centuries now and it would be doubtful that they would have ‘won’ anything at all without us. Sorry to hear about your friend’s father. From all accounts they experienced hell on the marches and being held in the POW camps. Very little mention (none) of the 51st by Westminster but that’ll change when we get our Independence. Churchill is another disgusting wee runt that has been forced down out throats. Just another manic-depressive like Hitler. Churchill the manic-depressive that got lucky.
………………………………………..
@ Cherry says at 10:45 pm …. ”Petra I have to let you know how very moved I was watching and listening to the YouTube vid about the 51st Highlanders. I really sobbed listening to the song. I have to tell you how angry I feel because I was never aware or told of this absolutely disgraceful tragedy. Thank you for that. What a disgusting union this is … I cannot wait to see my country free. Let’s clear them out of our lives! SNP x2.”
Cherry I cried too whilst watching it and it’s only ONE example of what’s been going on. It would just break your heart to see how badly the Scots were treated by Churchill. The Brave Scots totally dispensable …. commanded to hold back the Germans with little food, weapons, ammunition, air cover (none) and communication links. Films about Dunkirk glorifying the wee English boats that sailed the Channel to save the troops whilst 40,000 Scots were left behind to face their fate. Left stranded on the beaches. No boat for them!
Meanwhile 110,000 French troops were saved … taken to England. Why weren’t THEY fighting for their own country? Like you, and hundreds of thousands of others, I can’t wait to get out of the Union hell-hole. SNPx2.
……………………………..
@ Scottish EAU says at 11:44 am ……………..
Great post Scottish EAU. Too bad it was posted last on here and many people wouldn’t have seen it. You should think of reposting it again.
http://scottisheconomicanalysisunit.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/never-mind-the-quality-feel-the-width/
Hi Scottish EAU.
As Petra typed, your post should be read more widely.
However…
The layout of your blog, onscreen, could be improved. I have my screen at 1980×1280 and I found that, once I had zoomed into 150% (because the text was so small), half the screen was taken up with the header, which stayed where it was as I tried to scroll through the text.
The result was that as I clicked in the scroll bar, half of what I needed to read disappeared under the header so I had to do a reverse scroll to read it.
Not very user-friendly.
I took a screenshot of what it looked like. You can see it here:-
https://imgur.com/a/cLV0P
(Click on the image for the ‘real-size’ version.)
Sorry – that screen size should read 1920×1080.