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Winning and losing

Posted on May 05, 2017 by

Some manner of strange, alien vortex swallowed the very concept of arithmetic as we know it earlier this evening. The answer to the question “what is 431 minus 425?” was variously reported by the media as -7, -14, +31 and -30, with nowhere that we could find offering the seemingly obvious answer of “6”. But that was only the beginning.

Because language wasn’t immune from the sudden redefinitions either. The Tories, who finished 155 seats behind the SNP, nevertheless proclaimed themselves not only the winners of the election, but the sole winners.

So let’s have a quick review of the facts.


1. The SNP won by the biggest margin ever.

In 2007‘s council elections the Nats came out top despite narrowly losing the popular vote, collecting 15 more seats than second-placed Labour. In 2012 they won the vote and more than doubled their lead to 31 seats. This year’s margin of 155 was exactly FIVE TIMES as big as the previous best.

(Though it wasn’t decisive enough for the Guardian, who put “victory” in quotemarks.)

(NB previous elections used FPTP rather than STV and aren’t comparable.)

2. The SNP more than doubled the number of councils where they came first.

In 2012 Labour were the biggest party in as many councils – 16 – as everyone else put together. This year the SNP took the top spot in 19, almost three times as many as all the Unionist parties combined.

3. The SNP won in all four of Scotland’s main cities.

Nearly 30% of Scotland’s population lives in its four biggest cities – in descending size order, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee. In 2012 Labour won the most votes and seats in the biggest three, with the SNP taking only the baby of the bunch, Dundee. In 2017 the Nats got the most votes and the most seats in all four.

4. Different elections are different, and the SNP have multiple peaks.

Pundit after pundit lined up on the nation’s TV screens to announce (yet again) that the result proved the SNP’s honeymoon was over, their momentum had ground to a halt, their trajectory was now downwards and “Peak Nat” was past.

Yet in 2012, having netted a whopping 45% in the previous year’s Holyrood election, the SNP got just 32% of first-preference votes in the council elections. In the 2014 European election they slid even further, to 29%.

But those falls were meaningless in terms of their overall popularity – come the next vote, the 2015 Westminster election, they rocketed to 50%, and at Holyrood in 2016 they won another landslide with their vote share just 0.6% down on the 2011 result. Since losing in 2010 they’ve won elections in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017, with their vote share bobbing up and down considerably to no great consequence.

5. Deals are yet to be done.

The great Conservative resurgence delivered Ruth Davidson’s party just 9% of seats in Glasgow – 8 out of 85 – with the SNP taking almost five times as many: 39 seats, or 46%. The Nats will run Scotland’s biggest council, possibly in a coalition or informal alliance with the left-wing Greens which would provide a working majority. It’s difficult to see how that will make the Tories happy.

But elsewhere not a single one of Scotland’s 32 councils has a one-party majority. It remains to be seen who forms alliances with who. (Edinburgh was run by a seemingly successful Labour-SNP grouping and may well stay that way, except with the SNP in the top chair this time. Dundee will almost certainly stay under the control of the Nats, just one seat short of a majority.)

Minority rule can be made to work well, as the 2007-11 Scottish Government showed, having leveraged a single-seat plurality into a viable administration. The SNP, without actually having gained many seats but with the moral and practical force of now being the biggest party in two-thirds of the country’s councils, may well find themselves running considerably more of Scotland’s local government.


The Tories routed Labour and now occupy second place at every level of governance in Scotland. There can be no disputing that Thursday’s election was a very good day for them. But only within very narrow parameters – the fact is that for all their bluster and crowing they barely laid a glove on the SNP, only their own team-mates.

The Nats watched over an increase in their vote share, seat count, victory margin and just about every other conceivable metric. The pro-indy Greens also picked up seats, while the Unionist vote simply cannibalised and reconfigured itself.

Spin is spin, but we know which of the two “victors” we’d rather be.

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    1. 05 05 17 22:56

      Winning and losing | speymouth

    177 to “Winning and losing”

    1. Capella says:

      Once upon a time, Jock Public would have no means of knowing the facts. Now we have the internet and WoS. And that makes all the difference.

    2. Thepnr says:

      Well said Rev, today was a victory by many measures for the SNP unless your part of the Lying Lying Lying media that control Scotland and it appears many of her voters too.

      That will change when reality bites that lot on the bum.

    3. TheStrach says:

      Well done SNP. This bodes well for the GE and beyond.

    4. AndyH says:

      Ah…but when you consider ‘boundary changes’ you will find the SNP actually lost.

      Anyone else remember ‘seasonally adjusted figures’?

    5. Derrick says:

      John Rentoul of the Independent is still, right now, banging on about boundary changes as if they bend the laws of simple arithmetic.

    6. Donald MacKenzie says:

      Well, nobody’s granting wee Davie Muddle with anything approaching common sense and sense of reality … are they? Someone just flicks a switch and off he goes in programmed mode, not sure what he’s saying or why he’s saying it, but spouting the script nonetheless.

      More to be pitied than scolded.

    7. jfngw says:

      It will be interesting to see what the breakdown of the first preference votes are, if they are released as raw figures.

    8. jimnarlene says:

      It’s a two horse race now. Pro-indy V’s Pro-UK, or to put it another way, a future V’s Tory shit for ever.

    9. John Moss says:

      I’d rather be a loser on the winning side 🙂

      Roll on independence.

    10. call me dave says:

      Yes that’s a very fair summation.

      I was a bit down in the early afternoon but having seen all the events unfold I’m content.

      The Labour ‘twig’ office slumps further and the GE to come 🙂

      Deputy Dugdale looked really under pressure in her interview this afternoon and will soon be gone after the GE what have the red tories got to lose.

      In Fife Gordon and Rowley console each other and McLeish too late to climb off the fence.

      The Big Auntie BBC tells lies as a matter of course as usual 🙂

      I’m on my 4th year now not paying for a licence that feels good and I can recommend it.

      OH… just finished a half bag of sweet & salt popcorn. Burp!

      My birthday tomorrow shared with Tony B. Aye that one.

      Off to watch a film. Not a bad day in the round.

    11. geeo says:

      Scottish Toryland is a bloody weird place.

      GCC will probably have a massive spike in electricity demand right now as the whirr of Shredding machines fills the Glasgow night air…??

    12. John Jones says:

      I’ll be interesting to find out how many papers were spoiled by people putting a X instead of numbers,at one of our local stations a man came out saying vote anything except SNP,just put 1 cross on as the election officer says! Either a badly informed member of staff or as I suspect an undercover SNP supporter,if so well done, keep the yoons out anyway you can,wonder if we can extend this in the next one? Tell them to put multiple Xs for all the ones against Indy.
      Need to stop, getting carried away.

    13. yesindyref2 says:

      What’s a shame is that the Conservatives – the second party – the big winners – only beat Labour by 14 seats. A bit more VTYB from SNP voters could have held Labour above the Tories. But I’d say the reason Labour didn’t lose as many as expected was indeed because of VTYB, otherwise the Tories would have been on more than 300 seats.

      So considering the SNP are about the same in 2017 as 2012, a handful up in fact, the Tories did NOT do as well as expected.

      In short, all the Tories did was take Labour votes, and failed to make any inroads into the SNP. We have seen peak Tory 😎

    14. Robert Louis says:

      So, now we are in to pure blatant propaganda territory by the BBC.

      To justify reporting SNP gains as losses, on their website they say,

      “Boundary changes have occurred in many councils in Scotland. Seat change is based on notional 2012 results, which estimate what the results would have been then if the new boundaries had been in place.”

      Pure unadulterated propaganda courtesy of the lying anti Scotland BBC. They should hang their heads in shame.

      Utter lying b******s.

      This has been a great day for the SNP, and it just shows how craven and corrupt the media (especially the BBC) are when a gain in seats and council majorities is being reported as a loss.

      What will the BBC do next? Refuse to broadcast Nicola Sturgeon’s voice, and have it dubbed by an actor, like they used to do with Jerry Adams?

    15. Marker Post says:

      Thanks for this, Rev. Going to a party darn sarf tomorrow, and I will take great delight in showing everyone the real figures.

      It’s incredible that it has come to this, though. The MSM isn’t content with re-writing history, they’re re-writing our present and future too.

    16. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      One of our candidates (who nearly got in )saw many spoiled papers with two CROSSES against the two SNP candidates

    17. Tackety Beets says:

      Listening to the Radio on way home from work tonight I slumped to watch “Corrie”

      “Fairly scunnert”

      Whey hey ….on with the iPad and AGAIN my sanity is restored.

      Thank you all , the above factual & accurate summation has “fairly sorted ma heed”

      A wee dram and a big thank you.

      Well done to all those folk who have put in a good shift …….and I wish you strength to keep you on track ’till June.

    18. Capella says:

      Got to admire Orwell though. Not so much prescience as experience of working in the BBC.

      Room 101 really existed.
      Orwell named Room 101 after a conference room at Broadcasting House where he used to sit through tedious meetings.[2] When the original room 101 at the BBC was due to be demolished, a plaster cast of it was made by artist Rachel Whiteread:

    19. manandboy says:

      The reporting of the results today by the Unionist media is like the headlines ‘Rangers win the corner count in derby match at Parkhead”, when the score was 6-2 to the home team.

      Just another day in the Union.

    20. Robert Louis says:

      Just for the record, the archived page with the BBC results page for Scotland, is archived

    21. ClanDonald says:

      “No, no, no! The SNP lost seats because the boundaries were changed!”

      Not sure why the keep banging on about this, it’s going to start sounding like the whole purpose of the boundary changes was so the SNP would lose seats…

    22. schrodingers cat says:

      can an snp admin now ensure the cameras in george sq. R not turned off on june 3rd? and lift the ridiculous regs imposed on the yes rallies?

    23. nairnkev says:

      Does Glasgow city council buildings have an incinerator or banks of shredders, one, the other or both will be firing up right about now!.

    24. Robbo says:

      Wits that Dugdale awe aboot? She’s two neaps short of a tattie that wan.

    25. Robert Graham says:

      Glad I popped in , I got the impression from the BBC and Sky we were gubbed .
      This habit the BBC have adopted, SNP but, SNP that but, someone pointed it out in an earlier post and their right, and its bloody annoying .
      Boundary changes have exactly what to do with today’s results ? Hee f/n Haw , so the point in referencing them is ? , oh yes back to the BUT , silly me I forgot it’s the BBC .

    26. Wee Alex says:

      I’m wondering how Labour are feeling at the moment. They have seen their vote transfer to the Tories. Entirely predictable but their hatred of the SNP blinkered them.

      What next for Labour?

      Keiza Dugdale won’t be replaced. Who wants this poisoned chalice?

      Do they continue to support the Tories?

      If they had any sense they should go begging to the SNP to do deals to keep the Tories out of power. They really need to distance themselves from the Tories or face oblivion.

      I hope I’m wrong but I see Tory/Labour alliances across Scotland.

    27. Arbroath1320 says:

      Just watching SKY News and yup SNP lost, I’ll repeat that for those hard of hearing, they LOST 7 seats. 😀

      According to SKY the SNP LOST 25 seats and made 18 gains to end up on 431 seats. This is obviously correct cause as we know SKY would NEVER tell a LIE … would they?

      Obviously for these figures to work the SNP actually held 438 Council seats up until these elections. So obviously WE are all wrong in our arithmetic. Either that or SKY have been using the BBC calculator so favoured by the likes of Jackie Baillie.

    28. What is going to be interesting is to see if (and to what degree) SLab try to keep the SNP out of power in all those hung councils by stitching up backroom deals with the Tories. If they do that – and given their state of desperation and delusion, it’s the most likely outcome – then they are going to get absolutely carted on June 8th, because any such deals will have to be concluded and made manifest in the next three weeks or so.

      As you say, all we have seen today has been the re-alignment of the diehard unionist vote. Even the working-class orangeists have now realised that SLab is, well, on the slab in the mortuary of politics (or ‘The House Of Lords’, as it’s otherwise known).

    29. Andy-B says:

      Thank you Rev for the truth of the matter.

    30. schrodingers cat says:

      the coolest council candidate in scotland also got elected

      oh, and we can now ban orange walks in glasgow 🙂 or at least charge them a fortune in admin costs, eg all steward courses to be held in amsterdam 🙂

    31. JGedd says:

      ben madigan 9.56pm

      Thanks for that link, interesting in that it admits bias but still manages to blame the SNP for that.

      I have been watching the BBC and assorted media for more decades than I care to count and he is trying to tell me that perceived bias is down to personal peeves on behalf of journalists? That all of the media treats the SNP in a dishonest and hostile way because they haven’t been wooed enough? Nothing about proprietorial interests and editorial control on behalf of the establishment at all. Just happens – because SNP.

    32. winifred mccartney says:

      Can someone please tell me how the BBC gets away with this utter nonsense and downright lying in every news bulletin. I know their is spin but this is downright lying and of course only against the snp. Do they really believe the tories have won – or have they fallen heir to JBs calculator as well as their voters.

    33. Capella says:

      Check out Stu’s twitter ATM It’s hilarious:

      I’m losing count now. 431 minus 425 is either -7, -41, +31, -31, -30 or minus “a handful”. The only number it definitely ISN’T is six…

      John had 425 apples. Now he has 431 apples. How many extra apples has he bought? NO, REALLY, WE’RE ASKING, WE HAVE NO IDEA.

    34. caz m says:

      Why are the SNP Press Office not correcting these media lies?

      It surely can’t be that complicated for them to pick the phone up and tell Sky News and the BBC that they have got their figures all wrong.

      Or is it?

    35. AndyH says:


      So are the GERS figures what they are due to ‘notional thingymag’ as well?

    36. yesindyref2 says:

      It’ll be very interesting when we see the detail of individual ward transfers, and analaysi to see patterns. But for instance the Tory candidate in my ward, same guy as the last few years, got 2686 first preferences, compared to 1143 in 2012. Turnout 2017 54.2% compared to 2012 47.05%.

      And his surplus of 2686 – quota 1451 = 1235, gave the Labour elected in the 2nd round at least an extra 281 votes to get him elected – possibly more, that detail not available yet.

      So the Tories here turnout in force – more than double (235%), and many voted their second preferences for Labour.

      Surpluses are transferred as a proportion by the way, so the Con’s surplus of 1235 is done as 1235 / 2686 for the total 2nd preferences of the whole 2686. Sorry to be so anal with detail!

    37. One_Scot says:

      Lets face it nobody wants to suffer this crap year after year any longer than we have to.

      We really need to make sure that Scotland does not miss out next time.

    38. yesindyref2 says:

      @ AndyH says: “So are the GERS figures what they are due to ‘notional thingymag’ as well?

      Notional illustrative figures for boundary changes?


      GERS figures are notional because the details are provided by Treasury bounders, absolute bounders.

    39. Allan maccoll says:

      Fair play to fluffy it’s not often he is right but he hit the nail on the head there was only one winner…….. the snp.

    40. Capella says:

      Tories are 4th in Wales. Plaid Cymru are ahead of them. What Tory surge?

      Caveat – these are BBC figures so probably wrong.

    41. AndyH says:

      Now I’m even more confused.

      Reporting Scotchland just had a big sticker on the telly stating the 2012 figures were estimates.

      That scary Jamie guy looked shifty (and scary)

    42. carjamtic says:

      My 16 year old son voted (boaked) for the first time yesterday,I think the ‘first’ time you do something is always memorable,sorts of ‘shapes’ you as a person.

      The reporting of the Tory ‘victory’ by the MSM/BBC, has saved me a ton of explaining,so thank you for this,for assisting with,my son’s personal development,(and his mates) impressive.


    43. carjamtic says:

      P.S. WoS reputation for factual reporting,spreads even more,thanks Rev.


    44. Brian McHugh says:

      Just watching a couple of idiots doing the paper review on the BBC news channel… I seriously have not laughed as much in ages. It is so desperate, that it is comical.

    45. izzie says:

      Labour activist at Angus count told me there was clearly tactical voting LIB DEM haD verY very few first votes but loads of 2nd and was elected. It appears that all unionists have abandoned ant principles they have in order to thwart the SNP and Indy ref 2

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      John Jones @ 21:55,
      Dave McEwan Hill @ 22:01,

      I was observing the Glasgow count, and the number of crosses being deployed was appalling. I would say on my very sparse sampling it was even-stevens between SNP and Labour. Usually by voters only supporting their own parties and no others. Similar Tory voters only had one candidate to put a cross against, so by the rules that was counted as a legitimate 1st. pref. One cannot help but wonder what difference that could have made.

      Some put crosses and numbers side-by-side, and those were accepted where clear. Some people just find it very hard to wean themselves off that ancient symbol of the illiterate, it seems.

      Those voting right across the spectrum seemed to be mostly have SNP/Green as highest preferences, so “vote till you boak” does seem to have had an effect on the pro-indy side. But still a lot of SNP 1-2(-3) only as well. And also the occasional Lab -> SNP transfer, which may augur well for the future.

      I also caught on the fly a few very counter-intuitive =ahem= transfers, but there’s no accounting for taste, I suppose!

    47. John says:

      Shame,pure and utter shame on the people in North Lanarkshire who voted Tory, you must have very short memories to have voted for this lot, I am totally disgusted with you

    48. Big Jock says:

      What I learned today at work thoroughly depressed me. Not so much the result. It was the conversations.

      One woman asked me quite seriously if I agreed that Theresa May was the best person to negotiate with the EU. Well she asked so got an earful from me.

      Next the telly was on and a guy came in. I said :”Bloody Tories”. He said better than Snp. I then told him I was in the Snp. He had the cheek to say he was patriotic as he walked off.

      Next someone I thought was a yes voter. Admitted she voted no as she was scared and didn’t trust Sturgeon. But she was Scottish not British and just terrified of actual independence.

      So I now doubt ever winning a referendum. It’s depressing.

    49. Arbroath1320 says:

      caz m says:
      5 May, 2017 at 10:29 pm

      Why are the SNP Press Office not correcting these media lies?

      It surely can’t be that complicated for them to pick the phone up and tell Sky News and the BBC that they have got their figures all wrong.

      Or is it?

      I have seen a couple of tweets from Peter Murrell Caz. (That’s Nicola Sturgeon’s husband and Chief Executive of the SNP for anyone unsure about who he is 🙂 ) He has been putting out correcting direct to the Conservative Broadcasting Corporation.(BBC)

      So just to clarify for CBC,SKY,MSM and any other unionist who dips their toes in here here are the FACTS!

      SNP are BIGGEST party in 16 out of 32 Councils
      SNP won 431 seats which is 6 seats MORE than in 2012
      SNP won 75,000 MORE votes than before
      SNP has a HIGHER vote share than before

    50. Al-Stuart says:

      Reasonable coverage in the article Stu., but…

      Confirmation Bias Is A Dangerous Thing.

      It is very subtle, but if you drill down into the figures of two SNP councils that are, as a fact, now no longer controlled by the SNP, you might just detect a risk on the horizon that befell the other momentous early May election of a hugely popular political party. That of 1997 when the charismatic and popular Tony Blair was a breath of fresh air to the stale halitosis ridden Tory John Major.

      The SNP need to do many near impossible tasks. One of which is to realise there IS a seepage of support being lost. Yesterday the SNP LOST 2 important councils. No one seems to have noticed. If that slippage is NOT nipped in the bud, then InyRef2 is at real risk of being lost.

      Wings Over Scotland is of a calibre that has national and international accolades, but with the utmost respect to Stu., there is a risk of many here falling into the trap of confirmation bias and ending up slapping each other on the back and accidentally losing IndyRef2.

      I would narrate further but am chastised at writing a “screed” if more detailed debate points are added.

    51. Craig P says:

      Reporting Scotchland just had a big sticker on the telly stating the 2012 figures were estimates.

      Whereas the actual figures from 2012 are empirical facts.

    52. caz m says:

      Arbroath 1320 11.01pm

      Very well explained and I now appoint you the new SNP official Press officer.

      If only our media outlets could explain it the way you done life would be so much simpler.

      I have a feeling Sky’s ultra Scottish Yoon James Mathews will be behind a lot of this “SNP Bad” reporting

    53. yesindyref2 says:

      @Big Jock
      Cheer up, the Referendum campaign hasn’t started yet, nor has the fiscal commission reported either. And the SNP vote stayed steady, rose in fact – see @Arbroath1320, and according to @Robert J. Sutherland some labour voters put SNP 2nd.

      It’s all to play for, 2 years worth, and if the Tories do win the General Election we ain’t seen nothing yet, and we and hopefully a great majority in Scotland, won’t like it.

    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Al-Stuart –

      On ye go and screed all ye like.

      Some of us will be up for hours yet and warmly welcome late-night entertainment.


    55. AndyH says:

      Just the General Election to go and then it’s time to sit back and watch the Brexit fireworks.

      There was a good article in the National today by that Gordon McIntyre Kemp dude.

      Seems to reckon the pound will drop lower than dollar once all the negotiations start to go bad.

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      Perhaps I should “come clean”, considering some are inconsoleable (however you spell that) about these results.

      I’ve seen posters I know turning Tory, and Labour ones being so SNP they’d vote Tory to get rid of the SNP. If that had been widespread rather than the few activists, I feared the SNP could actually lose 50, maybe even 100 seats. They’ve been 10 years in Government after all.

      In the event they gained 6, so as far as that goes I’m ecstatic.

      And as far as the Tories are concerned, I thought they’d do even better, and as it is, they’re only 14 ahead of Labour. It may be a Tory revival, but hopefully it’s temporary. I mean – can a Labour diehard voter really be a Tory? I think not.

    57. Robert Peffers says:

      geeo says: 5 May, 2017 at 9:54 pm:

      ” probably have a massive spike in electricity demand right now as the whirr of Shredding machines fills the Glasgow night air…??”

      Yes but there may also soon be a spike in the Bar L food bill as the Bar L population sees a massive spike in Britnat prisoners.

    58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Big Jock @ 23:01,

      It’s funny=peculiar, isn’t it – British Nationalists are “patriotic” whereas Scottish ones are “extremists”. (Typical Unionist false framing. Like Rude Gal’s “sole wins”.) Next time reply that you’re patriotic too, and what’s more for a country where you’re a full citizen and not a mere serf.

    59. Arbroath1320 says:

      Thanks for the promotion Caz … not sure my partner will be too pleased though, she thinks I’m big headed as it is. 😀

      I think the best way for everyone to maintain a level of healthy living is to avoid, like the plague CBC/SKY/MSM reports concerning anything political about Scotland.

      WE have the REAL locations to search out the REAL facts … it’s called the INTERNET! Make sure that you include sites like yon Wings over Scotland thingy. He seems to have a knack of cutting through the shite to the TRUTH that NO unionist media outlet is capable of handling. 😀

    60. Proud Cybernat says:

      So the Blue Tories fought LE17 on “NO to a 2nd Referendum”.

      The maths tells us very clearly that the Tories LOST. The maths tells us the SNP WON.

      #scotref cannot now be argued with (not that it ever could in the first place having been passed by the Scottish Parliament).

      S30 any time in the next month or so Treeza will be fine. But don’t take all year. We’re watching.

    61. schrodingers cat says:

      um……..ruths wee mini referendum on holding a referendum???

      means every election going forward for the tories will be a mini referendum on holding a referendum

      so if we dont get 50%+ and 56 mps in the ge, we still have a mandate for indyref2

      we bide our time, watch the polls support for yes rise,
      im not sure what real info we can draw from the results of this council election, low turnout, tactical voting, ignorance of system, a system where the snp couldnt contest 33% of the seats.

      during the knock up, i spoke to an snp supporter currently doing a phd in political science at st andrews, she told me this only after i asked her if she knew this election was not an X marks the spot but a 1234, etc ranking system.
      thing is, during the subsequent discussion, she let slip that she thought that an X on the ballot paper would spoil the paper.
      this is incorrect. one X on a ballot paper is counted as if it was a 1.

      the point of this comment? if one third of the electorate mark an X instead of a 1, it means the electorate dont understand the system and any arguments about the merits of the stv system go out of the window.

      but these stats wont be published, even tho’ during the counting process they are counted. so the stv system will continue.

      if 10,20, or 30% of the electorate mark a X on yesterdays ballot paper, what does that say about the system?

      i will continue to lobby the snp to abolish this system

    62. ScottishPsyche says:

      So the SNP didn’t get control of all councils in Scotland?

      Bummer, what a bunch of losers. That definitely means Ruth Harrison has shown the separatist extremists that everyone in Scotland is behind Theresa May.

      Notional losses, is that like notional deficits?

      Does winning 300 avocados in 2012, mean you have lost 50 oranges in 2017 if you gain 20 apples and you compare peas and carrots under the 2015 rules?

      Does that mean in a different set of circumstances, things would be different? Please Anas, explain?

    63. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’ll just leave this here I think.

      Apparently we are not alone in suffering LIES and MISINFORMATION at the hands of the Conservative Broadcasting Corporation.

    64. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 23:26,

      Dead right. The message that the Tories’ “no referendum” LOST BY A HUGE MARGIN in the local elections needs to be shouted from the rooftops again and again and again, and drown out Rude Gal’s alt-truth that somehow it “won”.

    65. Proud Cybernat says:

      Although Celtic humped Rangers 5-1 last week, notionally it was actually a win for Rangers cos they hit the post once, the bar once, had five corners and seven free-kicks. The BBC said so.

    66. handclapping says:

      Of course the SNP lost 7 Councillors. None of them ever did a stroke of work for their constituents and its quite right that they were booted out.

      Has anybody seem this mythical 2012 “revised” result in detail oe the names of the “experts” who produced it. Is it even public or did the BBC commission it purposely?

    67. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 23:30,
      There is an issue with an (unknown) segment of the population’s continuing unfamiliarity with 1-2-3 STV voting, that’s undeniable.

      But other countries can handle it perfectly well. Our neighbours in north/south Ireland, for example. So are you really just claiming that we Scots are uniquely “too wee, too stupid” to get it then…?

    68. Daisy Walker says:

      Tory Surge? … more like Fake

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      Hee hee hee

      Ho ho ho

      Ha ha ha

      In 2012 Labour had 394 seats.
      In 2017 all the Tories could manage is 276.

      So as the “2nd biggest party” in Scotland, they’re not a patch on what Labour were.


      June 8th make Scotland a Tory-MP free zone.


    70. Dr Jim says:

      STV put a member of the public woman on who said
      “I voted for Independence last time but I wouldn’t do it again”

      See when you read that did your eyes screw up
      with your tongue slightly protruding, mouth open and then your face just looks like somebody stuck it on a dogs Arse, mine did

      Followed by a whispery sounding WTF?

    71. Meg merrilees says:

      Big Jock -go and talk to some 16/17 year olds they are so fired up and pro-Indy. You come away believing that we will be independent in our lifetime. I recommend it.

    72. clan rossy says:

      in the last month or so we have been hit with the biggest
      load of shite,fake news,complete and utter bias from our
      bbc/msm and all other media outlets you can mention.

      labour has now morphed into the tory party so we now know where we stand. the lib dems are just absolute nonentities
      not even worth speaking about.

      all in all i think deep down they are raging absolutely raging that they have not even managed to even make a dent in the core support for the snp and the independence movement.

      and its a Historic day for the SNP now the largest party in Dundee, Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

      all in all i feel very upbeat and very confident of our chances in june .

      let the games begin.

    73. heedtracker says:

      I would narrate further but am chastised at writing a “screed” if more detailed debate points are added.

      Al Stuart I love Confirmation Bias because it always proves me right.

      But fact is Al, tories came out to vote in huge numbers yesterday in Scotland because they were told to, primarily by BBC Scotland rtory gimps. Said beeb gimps made it clear to Scottish tories that if they didn’t it come out and vote, it was another blow to tory and UK rule in Scotland. And clearly tory votes believed beeb con artists.

      But did YES voters?

      Yes votes on the other hand, knew full well it was all just beeb gimpery in action, so as usual, there was a low turn out of Yes voters, when normally it’s cross party non council election voting.

      Its that simple Al. Confirmation bias has gone completely mental in all newsrooms in Scotland now but its highly likely that all the Yes voters of Scotland missing yesterday will schlep down to the polling booths June 8, because we all know, this is another big step to Scottish independence.

    74. Faltdubh says:

      Another election and another SNP victory.

      Whilst there has to be some minor disappointments – losing the largest group of councilors in Aberdeenshire and Perth and Kinross; missing out a majority in Dundee by one.

      Overall it was a successful night and victory for the SNP. One thing I heard I think only once today and to be fair it was from Huw Edwards – that our voting system is STV and thus produces a PR type result.

      Just think though! This was the Unionist’s ‘2015’ their chance to tell Scotland “We said No, and we meant it” and those No Surrender Tories did do fairly well, but not well enough! This was their chance to send the SNP a message, and whilst +100 odd seat is a success, they DID NOT win today, and still have a 156 councilors behind the Scottish National Party.
      The Scottish National Party who have been in power now for ten years. Ten years of ‘SNP bad’, ‘Blow for Sturgeon’ soundbites, propaganda and negative after monstrosity OTT bullshit news.

      This was the Unionist chance to bounce back! And to an extent they did but rather than huff and puff, they blew a bit and got a bit tired. Sure the likes of Ravenscraig, Bathgate, Glasgow having 8/9 Tories can be painted up as a success for the Tories ; but do you know?

      They failed to take Moray – we are told they fancy it in the GE, but they’ll need to do better than that if they are going to beat Angus Robertson.

      This is also a perfect wake up call for the quiet/I pay my £12 subs a year to the Greens/SNP activist. This is the ”I need to do more” moment and makes sure we return as many SNP MPs as we can.

      The Tory gloating, boasting, idiotic tweets from the likes of Mundell, Fraser etc. Have these in your mind. And do what you can for to make sure we win at least 45 seats in May!

      The SNP has 120,000 members. Imagine if even 30% of us were active, even if just for the next five weeks.

      We can and will send a message to London, that we are different and we are NOT going away.

      The SNP vote held up strong today! Whilst they may be minor criticisms about the party possibly fielding too many candidates in certain areas, the vote still held up.

      The Tories did not win. Sure they gained a lot, at the expense of the Labour party! The fears of SNP/leave voters going SNP did or hasn’t amount to much at all.

      We have a strong hardcore support! 10 years has shown that.

      NOW, and I apologise for all the capitals and hyperbole.

      We get out there and keep fighting! Whatever it is you can offer. You do not need to be on the streets or pounding loyalist neighborhoods fighting for SNP votes. We are a vast, robust, and diverse movement – plenty of data entry, driving, envelope licking, emailing, anything really to do in the next five weeks to help the SNP win as many seats as they can.

      And if you can donate a £1, £5 or whatever you fancy to a crowfunder to get an SNP MP elected. Go for it!

      And Greens! Well done on the gained seats. I am very happy to see many Green pals who may have been promised a vote from fellow SNPers get a vote and finally get one. We require another vote from you again, a lended vote that we will not ask for in an independent Scotland, and I will return the favour with a vote at Holyrood.

      Everyone should be happy tonight!

      The SNP just won another election, and to avoid repeating the facts posted in the great article and thread, just reas the clear as day stats

      SNP Four hundred odd something
      Tory two hundread odd something

      SNP 4 Tory 2.

      And this was their day to shine! They did alright and we had a wee shower; but at the end of the day, the sun is setting on a lovely day.

    75. ian murray says:

      Somebody earlier posted a whole page of formula but it is much simpler than that
      I refer you all to the away votes rule!
      The media pockle the results to see if they can get away with it!

    76. Thepnr says:

      @Big Jock

      Now is not the time, it’s too easy to become disheartened because of the media bias. This is when you stay strong and having read your posts I know you are that.

      We work all the harder now, it’s only that uninformed that are being fooled so our job is to inform them. I’m not talking of standing on an Irn Bru crate in the middle of your High Street. I’m talking of speaking to those closest to you, not berating them either but giving them the FACTS.

      When things look at there bleakest you get off your arse and do something about it. There is time yet and despite the bastard media lies we will turn this around.

      Today was a victory although you would never know it by the reporting. Don’t let the lies get you down, fight back against these …….

      We can do this, just have to believe in ourselves.

    77. galamcennalath says:

      The NO REFERENDUM PARTY got thrashed today. Next!

    78. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      There is another fundamental flaw in the CBC’s presentation of the SNP’s standing, and it relates to the transferable vote factor in Scottish local elections. As many of us know from the “VTYB” campaign, candidates lower down the 1st pref list can eventually accumulate sufficient lower-order prefs to win through nevertheless. The nature of those transfers can change from one election to the next, as we have seen here. Stu puts it very well when he describes it as “the Unionist vote simply cannibalised … itself”.

      So comparing seat wins is simply incapable of giving an accurate indication of change in majority support, in my view. Even if there were no boundary changes. If it’s measuring anything at all, it’s more likely to be changes in something else like cross-party flows.

      The only measures capable of accurate assessment of basic support are 1st pref. votes cast, and their vote share. And on both those measures, the SNP have clearly increased their standing.

    79. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 5 May, 2017 at 11:20 pm:

      ” … It may be a Tory revival, but hopefully it’s temporary. I mean – can a Labour diehard voter really be a Tory? I think not.”

      Dear! Oh! Dear!

      All this time I’ve been showing that beyond any doubt the entire written history of the British Isles proves there has always been a elite Londinium Establishment in control of the Southern parts of the British Isles.

      Yet you haven’t got the message that they have always had various factions, aye! even the Romans, who fought among themselves to be the more powerful factions.
      Yet throughout our entire history their only consistent opponents were the North Britons.

      Furthermore our entire history has shown that when the Londinium establishment comes under threat they will close ranks and stand shoulder to shoulder against their common enemy.

      So, yesindyref2, of course the Labour Unionist will vote Tory Unionists and, if you study history in the more recent past, will the LibDem Unionists or for that matter the former Whigs Unionists.

      They are, when the chips are down, The Westminster Parliament, that is only the more public face of the Westminster Establishment.

    80. Still Positive says:

      My 17-year-old grand-daughter told me this evening that she voted til she boaked because she had the STV system explained to her at a Glasgow college last year.

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      Hee hee, GIRFUYTB

    82. Chick McGregor says:

      Just to remind people, I did point out that the real competition here had already occurred before this election. It was between Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson.

      The Scum Britnat Media in Scotland had supported SLAB, but the result:

      Kezia/SLAB + SBM support only roughly equaled that of Ruth/Con in turn out results, convinced them to dump Kezia/SLAB and swing in behind the Post Ruth party.

      There was therefore, inevitably, going to be a coalescing of Britnat + Anti EU support behind the Tories.

      However, I also pointed out, that in terms of indyref2, this is a very good thing, because it polarises unionist/anti EU and indy support and associates the former with the Tories.

      i.e. Unionism/anti EU becomes a Tory possession.

      It is time now for the pro indy parties to make serious, background, attempts to get SLAB to turn to support of indy. That is SLAB’s only survival route.

      Perhaps even Kezia could be made to see that herself but… ?

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Weel Robert, I prefer my version.

      That a diehard Labour voter will never really be a Tory.

    84. K1 says:

      We’ll see, the horse trading begins in earnest the morra…if diehard Labour form even loose coalitions wi tories to prevent snp administrations in some councils ah think it will become excruciatingly obvious there is no such thing as a die hard any stripe except ‘unionists’ in Scotland.

    85. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      no, im saying that nef has the largest % of over 85s of any constituency in scotland

      im also saying that altho these X’s were counted, they will not be reported.

      im also saying for council elections, direct representation is a must, and local representatives stand and represent people on local issues

      just because ruth says vote for me in council elections to stop indyref2 doesnt mean that councillors have the ability to do so.

      the biggest issue yesterday was the bill to take 1% of all council funding and give it to community councils. it got no mention in the traditional media or social media but when i pointed this out to people on the doorstep in my area, they immediately realised how important this was.

      STV? why is pr important when 30%of candidates are independent?

      planning permission should be brought back to the community councils

    86. Grouse Beater says:

      Removing pensions:

    87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Meg merrilees @ 00:02,

      Next time risibledave makes a cameo appearance, we should simply refer him to the second of those links, Meg. He seems to have a serious case of the very ailment that the article describes.

    88. Effijy says:

      I think the SNP should prime the Scottish Public to the fact that the Red and Blue Tories will yet again be working hand in hand to try and defeat every SNP Council proposals.

      Two Party Names, one right wing objective!

      Will the Shettleston Tory Councillor be supplied with a translator?

      He will be asked:

      Ur ye a Tim?

      Can ye gie us any Gless Cheques?

      Whit size ur ye in a Sash?

      Geeza Fag!

      Talk’n Bout?

      Awe wiv goat is wan Gregg’s Dummy atween us!

    89. Jerry Bailey says:

      Augurs well for June, with all available fingers crossed and wooden surfaces touched.

      Now I’m just waiting for Theresa May to tell us that her ruthless massacre of Labour gives her a full mandate for pursuing Hard Brexit, whereas the SNP’s majority in Westminster, their being the largest party in most Scottish council areas and the consistent combined SNP/Green Party seat increases in Westminster and Holyrood since the referendum are apparently a loss, and a clear sign that Nicola has no mandate for IndyRef2.

      It’s no wonder she got on so well with President Trump, between them and Sean Spicer they must have had a great evening comparing the gullibility of their own voters in the face of their increasingly deranged alternative facts.

    90. K1 says:

      Full Glasgow election results with vote preferences broken down:

    91. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 00:16,

      Your mention of independents misses the mark by 180 degrees, I suggest. The whole point of STV is to enable voters to rank their local representatives individually according to perceived ability and performance, irrespective of party allegiance or none. And free of any pre-cast party list.

      Local elections have become anomalous for an entirely different reason – they have become (inappropriately but probably inevitably) sat upon by the Great Elephant in the Room, the unresolved constitutional question.

      (Not least thanks to the “don’t mention the indyref” Noref Party, which JUST LOST BY A MILE.)

    92. Hamish100 says:

      Yes indy ref 2

      Would you agree that in North Ayrshire the tactics were wrong and there was too much interference in telling local branches who their candidate was.

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 6 May, 2017 at 12:10 am:

      “Weel Robert, I prefer my version.
      That a diehard Labour voter will never really be a Tory.”

      Nah! Your mistake is that you are confusing real socialists with real Labour. Yes there are indeed some real socialists in the Labour party but I’d bet my wee bootees there are more real Socialists in the SNP.

      If you look at the current election results you will observe the very, very, true fact that a very large number of, “true”, Labour voters are now voting Tory.

      It has been so very apparent that was the trend from the Blair/Brown NuLabour days and the very fact that Labour did NOT revert to Socialism post NuLabour proves the point.

      Want to know what happened to the last True Labour guy in Scotland? The Labour Party threw him out and Dennis Canavan became the joint leader of the Indy Yes Movement.

      There are more true Socialists in the SNP than in the Labour Party now – and that includes Corbyn.

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      Hey, the Record actually reported the +6 thing correctly:

    95. Cactus says:

      Haun yerself.

      Looking forward to our new Glasgow…

      Glasgow’s Much Better 😉

      We are ra winners.

    96. geeo says:

      If labour want any influence in Local authority politics, they MUST make deals with the Tories or the SNP.

      If they choose the SNP, then they naturally MUST change tak and support independence. They can hardly claim to be anti indy unionists and coalition with the SNP.


      If they choose the Tories, then they would be as well standing ZERO CANDIDATES in the upcoming General Election. (Why vote Labour when you can just vote Tory).

      Labour in Scotland has ONE chance to continue to exist.

      Embrace Independence, and join forces with the SNP to lock out the Tories from local government.

      Protect Scotland from the Tories, or become the tories.

      Labour can no longer hide under the bed hoping the storm abates.

    97. Arbroath1320 says:

      Think we now know what really happened in and around Glasgow today peeps.

    98. Training Day says:

      Battle of Hastings ‘sinks case’ for Norman rule.

      Britain ‘surges to victory’ as Americans declare independence.

      Homo sapiens ‘claim victory’ over strong and stable Neanderthals.

      Just some of the sterling efforts of the colonial media today.

    99. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Meg Merilees (12.02) –

      Cheers for the links. Interesting stuff, and the take-away line for me is ‘Britain is heading for humiliation’.

      Not before time, some might say…


    100. Chick McGregor says:


      While I said adopting a pro indy stance is SLAB’s only survival route, unfortunately, it cannot be done in time for the forthcoming GE.

      Candidates need to be vetted and those not supportive of, or at least relaxed about, an independent Scotland, which needs to be the case, cannot be brought about in the time scale presented.

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyone know who apart from 1 Tory, were elected in Shettleston and Calton just now? I need it for a Herald posting to compare with 2012 – Shettleston 3 Lab, 1 SNP, Calton – 2 Lab, 1 SNP.


      No idea outside my ward, where the answer would be – no. Both SNP candidates were the same as were already councillors, but it looks as though with 1400 surplus from the Conseevative who came first, some went to Labour, and some to the Independent, so the SNP lost one.

      And there’s absoltey nothing, nada, zip, the SNP voters could have done about that, short of kidnapping about 1400 Tory voters.

    102. geeo says:

      @chic. 12.50am

      Hence me saying this….

      If they choose the Tories, then they would be as well standing ZERO CANDIDATES in the upcoming General Election. (Why vote Labour when you can just vote Tory).

    103. yesindyref2 says:


      Okey doke, got Shettleston and Calton from Glasgows official zip / pdf – now published too for 2017. Paisley NW from wiki – and the Record so could be checked from offical sources.

      2012 – 3 Lab, 1 SNP
      2017 – 1 Lab, 2 SNP, 1 Con
      (Both SNP and Con gains a seat from Lab)

      2012 – 2 Lab, 1 SNP
      2017 – 1 Lab, 2 SNP, 1 Con
      (SNP and Con gain half a seat from Lab, and take half a new one)

      Paisley North West (contains Ferguslie Park)
      2012 – 2 Lab, 2 SNP
      2017 – 1 Lab, 2 SNP, 1 Con
      (SNP stay the same, Con gain a seat from Lab)

      So if anyone says like “The SNP let the Tories in to Calton, Shettleston and Ferguslie Park” no they’ effing well didn’t.

    104. Gail Hughes says:

      Scottish Tories got the second most seats, there’s only one winner.

      You nailed it there, Davie, old son.

    105. Arbroath1320 says:

      So SNP vote went UP.
      Labour vote went DOWN.
      Tory vote went UP.
      Lib Dem vote went DOWN.
      Green vote went UP.

      The difference between FIRST and SECOND went from 31 seats to 155.

      The bottom line EVERYTHING points to SNP winning and maintaining their stance on independence meanwhile the unionist parties LOSE ground against the SNP. In other words folks the 2nd independence referendum is finally and conclusively OFF the table! 😀

    106. K1 says:

      It’s important to note also in addition to what yesindyref2 just posted above that quite a few of the Glasgow wards returned 2 SNP candidates. The tory gains are directly on the back of the Labour losses.

    107. Wonder if those ex Scottish Labour voters are getting any sleep after putting their first preference to the hated Thatcher`s right wing Tory`s,

      their will be graves spinning all over Scotland.

    108. Inkall says:

      Happy with the Aberdeen result, SNP largest party and ball in the Lib Dems court.

      The Labour/Tory/Independent Coalition have lost their majority, down to only 22, while the SNP are on 19 and the Lib Dems are on 4 so an SNP/LibDem Coalition could be done.

      Curious to see what happens in Edinburgh too, maybe the Greens joining the previous SNP/Labour coalition, or there being a new SNP/Green/LibDem one.

    109. Scott says:

      Wikipedia is recording the extra 6 seats for the SNP as a loss of 7 seats, and also showing the SNP losing 1 council.

    110. Cadogan Enright says:

      We should start a tote on when the BBC will correct their figures on their website

      2:1 sometime tonight without apology on the QT

      3:2. Never

      10000:1 report their error and repeat it on the news programmes throughout Saturday to correct the misleading impression created today

    111. Crabbit says:

      Haven’t read all the posts on here so apologies if this is already covered. It really has now come for a serious campaign to boycott the BBC license fee in Scotland in protest to the onslaught of anti Scottish, anti SNP or anti anything other than parrot chat of Unionist claptrap! I gave up watching mainstream news on tv post 2014 but going by what I’ve heard and seen on social media and internet sources of today’s coverage of the Local Elections things have gone well beyond the pale, with the BBC at the vanguard of all the pro Tory propaganda. Lets organise a full-on boycott now!

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      Total seats over 32 councils
      2012 – 1,223 seats
      2017 – 1,227 seats
      Increase in seats: 4 = 0.33%

      SNP seats over 32 councils
      2012 – 425
      2017 – 431
      Increase in seats: 6 = 1.41%

      Hello dumbnuts at the BBC – 1.41$ is greater than 0.33%.

    113. Inkall says:

      Decided to do the wee error correction picture for Aberdeen as I’ve seen others doing for their area.

      Not as wrong as some but seeing that +8 -8 right next to each other makes things feel a bit clearer (even if that isn’t entirely what happened).

    114. Swami Backverandah says:

      Labour backing the extra-galactic, seething with UKIP Tories again in their latest electioneering went well for them, non?

      There’s Murray’s death knell.

      Do it again!

    115. The Dog Philosopher says:

      There is a scene in the film 12 Angry Men when the last-to-be-convinced juror (played brilliantly by Lee J Cobb) finally breaks down and overcomes his deeply-felt prejudice against his own son, and changes his voting stance in the light of the mounting evidence brought about by Henry Fonda’s character who demands that the jurors spend some time interrogating what had been said during the trial. A tad contrived but great human drama nevertheless.

      I was thinking how that scene might best describe how many ordinary Scottish Labour voters are feeling at this moment in time as the future of Scottish Politics begins to take shape. Do they really want to be on the wrong side of history? Do they really want their party to be demolished by the bloody Tories? Or can they swallow their pride and admit that socialism stands a much better chance in an independent Scotland than it ever will within an increasingly right-wing England?

    116. Swami Backverandah says:

      That light you see in yonder swamp is coming from the room of a discredited-figures salesperson up late desperately trying to graph the results for sale to the BBC.

    117. Cactus says:

      Hey @Chris Cairns ~

      You back?

      What you got for us?

      Summin topical?

    118. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 00:29,

      Thanks for that link; there’s a lot in there to digest! For ward 23 in particular (in which you may possibly also have an interest), I posted a detailed analysis that disappeared into the void for some reason. But to summarise:

      +SNP#1 and Tory were directly elected, in that order.

      + A substantial portion of SNP#1’s preferences transferred to SNP#2, but a few were non-transfers (single “X” maybe?) or to Lab; somewhat more went to the Green, and very few to the LibDem or Ind. So the SNP 1-2 message was largely effective, but not entirely 100%.

      + Tory transfers went in a rough 2:1 division to LibDem/Lab, all clearly a Unionist ticket, but split. A comparable number were non-transfers (also “X”‘s?). Some went to the Ind, but virtually none to SNP#2.

      + First elimination was the Ind., as expected. His available prefs (some inherited) went all over the place, very roughly equally between all the others and non-transfers.

      + Second elimination was the LibDem, whose net transfers split roughly 1:1 between Lab and Green (Unionists and “Green Libs”?). A somewhat lesser amount went to SNP#2. So Lib voters were not monolithic Unionists, despite the party message.

      + These transfers were sufficient to elect Lab and Green, so we cannot tell what their voters’ prefs were.

      + However, we can deduce that in this case at least, any Green-SNP-SNP vote could not help either SNP (for different reasons), and contrariwise, any SNP-SNP-Green vote was unable to assist the Green (irrespective of the SNP-SNP ranking).

    119. Cactus says:

      Tories are treacherous.

      Labour is in the past.

      Scotland is in the now.

      Scotland is our future.

      Come back.

    120. Walter Scott says:

      Lesley Riddoch coined a phrase on yesterday’s radio 4’s PM program. She said, maybe we have reached “peak tory”

    121. Thethaxe says:

      Thanks for putting this together so quickly. Really appreciate your analysis in the face of the rest of the name downgrades.

    122. Arbroath1320 says:

      Craig Murray has an interesting dissection of the Ferguslie Park Tory overwhelmingly amazing “success.”

    123. Cactus says:

      Is that the tory ‘honeymoon’ playground period over yet…?

      I gie ye a day and a month.

      He we come.


    124. Richard Hunter says:

      Labour will never support independence. It’s simply not in their interests to do so. They are nothing in Scotland, but supporting independence would cause detriment to their hopes in England. They are effectively a third party now like the Lib Dems or the Greens and will only be the receptacle of protest votes. Remember there’s no Labour party in Northern Ireland; why should there be one in Scotland?

    125. Macart says:

      Neatly done Rev. 🙂

      Tomorrow Ruthie’s going to wake up to a bit of a revelation now that she’s helped wipe Labour off the electoral map. Ruthie leads the second party of Holyrood and today she’s got some council seats tucked under her corset.

      Who does she think the yoon faithful will look to when leadership of BT 2.0 comes along? No hiding behind Labour for take 2. The Tories have betrayed their Labour bedfellows/running mates at every turn since 2014. The SNP vote didn’t crumble as she’d hoped, but she did succeed in robbing Labour (through their ever so cunning tactical voting) of some of their more colourful (cough) voter base.

      Ruthie is now front and centre as defender of the union. No Labour fronting a Cameron Westminster government and taking the backlash of the public this time round. Oh no.

      This time its a choice of two futures. A choice between a future made by a government truly answerable to the electorate, or a Tory future mired in Brexit isolation and full on brakes off austerity legislation.

      As for Labour? Given the events of the past few years and their willing partnership with the Conservative party, they need to ask themselves a question when the dust settles.

      Was it everything you thought it would be?

    126. woosie says:

      Even now, ebc are running the banner ” SNP lose a handful of seats”..

    127. Ghillie says:

      Walter Scott and Cactus,

      I do think they may have reached ‘Tory Peak’, more or less. Where else will they find more votes?

      Ukippers and disaffected/unionist Slabers have now been hoovered up. Though some ex-Labour voters may change tact and think about supporting Independence as the penny drops and more Tory horrors unfold.

      Am so very pleased for the SNP (and the Green Party!) and our many Councillors who can now get on with working in the best interests of their local areas and Scotland as a whole = )

    128. Kevin Evans says:

      Hey folks,

      Not posted on here for a while. Switched to twitter after the EUref.

      Anyway – the council elections have certainly aligned proindy SNP vrs pro union Tory as the final lines drawn up towards Indy.

      I know we won convincingly but I do feel a little down about the result. I guess it’s the move of scots to the Tories that’s got me down. Watching a nation who is always been left wing socialist in thinking get drawn into the most right wing Tory party for a longtime.

      Now this might seem way out there but I wanted to float a suggestion.

      The declaration of Arbroath talks about “as long as 100 of us remain” and it got me thinking. Prince Phil has retired and it can’t be long before Charles will be crowned king. Now someone (I dunno who) agreed that for a coronation we would return the stone of destiny for the purpose of crown a king or queen. Well I suggest we form a new Scottish covenant made up of 100 of us like in the declaration of Arbroath and we refuse to allow the stone to leave Scotland ever again.

      This is only a theoretical suggestion but I think as a protest willing to stand and prevent the stone moving is the kind of stand us pro Indy folk should make.

      Like I said just floating the idea.

    129. pool9 says:

      Why do some folk in steerage vote for the gentlepeople in 1st class who do not now, and never will, care if they live or die?

      And who will ensure that their body guards keep the riff raff out of their life boat in the event of disaster?

      Because they are misled and misinformed, many of them.

      When push comes to shove, the Conservatives will always abandon the poor.

      If not stuff them face first down into a broken sewer, as the Tories are doing now in the UK, but nobody seems to want to report it.

      Who wants to report disabled people losing assistance, heart attack victims being sanctioned?

      The Conservatives calculate that the poor they court will always blame someone else other than the Conservatives. Divide and rule, old chap.

      Yes. I think that is it.

      The Conservatives court voters who will always blame someone else for their misfortune, even if the Conservatives are the obvious and only real choice.

      The Conseravtives are an ill that plague our land. They foment dissension and distrust.

      The battlelines are drawn.

      Talk to your neighbours. Show them another way. Send them a link or two.

      Most phones can reveal whole new worlds with a simple search.

      Talk to them about history, recent and ancient. Point out the biases they were taught, show them the alternatives.

      Bring people into the light and they will never again accept darkness.

    130. Morgatron says:

      Fluffy is a total tajar.

    131. Ann says:

      To be honest, after constant anti-SNP, Say no to a Second Referendum full blast media Conservative backing propaganda, because really that’s all it has been since ths Brexit vote, I was actually quite surprised and hapoy at how well the SNP vote held up.

      Wasn’t realky surprised at the Tory gains in the likes of Aberdeen, the North and the Borders.

      Just sorry to lose the likes Neale Hanvey, SNP Group Leader in Fife to a Tory.

      The Tories played a blinder and got their voters out on the day, but just how long are the electorate going to be fooled?

      If I was Kezia and Jeremy, I would really be looking at the seeming obsession with their “informal” junior partnership with the Tories as this is to where their voters are going.

      They keep losing at the rate they are they will soon be on a par with the Libs and if not careful go down the road of UKIP and loose everything as they will be seen of no importance.

      Tory Job done.

      Straight Unionist v Independence in Scotland and that was what we expected.

    132. TYRAN says:

      Can anyone tell me the names of these 6,7, 33 or whatever SNP councillors then? What gender are they? Age? Height? Should be easy. Someone has arrived at a figure, so let’s identify these people behind the figure. Interview them over their loss. If anyone says seats were lost insist that they name them.

    133. BJ says:

      Two separate comments from cif in an English paper 5 hours ago

      At nearly 60 years old have finally joined a political party.
      I joined the SNP today and I do live in Scotland. In the past I have lived in Lincolnshire and voted Lib Dem.

      To be honest the thought of another tory majority buoyed by English jingoism has me contemplating independence again.

    134. Malky says:

      Having followed events in the media in general yesterday, and the BBC in particular, can they honestly still mock concerns of bias as ‘conspiracy theory’ with any conviction.

    135. Nana says:

      The industry is giddy as oil majors begin to unleash their spend again

      UK government surveillance plans including real-time snooping and encryption backdoors leaked

    136. schrodingers cat says:

      still cant find any break down of the results? still no % share of the over all vote?

    137. Brian McHugh says:

      Just checked Glasgow Calton (Ward 9), where the BBC were salivating over a Tory seat gained…

      Total (1st Pref) votes:
      SNP 2590 (1389 + 690 + 511)
      Lab 1524 (922 + 602)
      Tory 627
      Green 491
      NoRef 150
      Lib Dem 102
      TOTAL 5484

      SNP elected round 1 (1389)
      Lab elected round 6 (922)
      SNP elected round 6 (690)
      Tory elected round 9 (627)

      Total 1st pref Indy votes: 3081 (56.2%)
      Total 1st pref Un’ist votes: 2403 (43.8%)

      The Tory got elected on 11.4% of cirst preference votes… hardly the breakthrough that the BBC and MSM were trying to portray.

    138. Breeks says:

      It’s nice to catch the BBC lying, but how and when do we turn this popular cynicism into cohesive action to secure independent Scottish broadcasting and dethrone the BBC propagandists?

    139. Nana says:

      Media distortion

      video here

      From the article below

      The media have, with an incredible level of unanimity, seized upon a Tory being elected to represent Ferguslie Park, “the most deprived area of Scotland”, as the leading evidence of a Tory resurgence into areas of Scotland “they could not previously venture into”. I have heard this recounted on every available broadcast platform this evening.

    140. schrodingers cat says:

      thanks nana, but no, not really

      craig murray is also complaining on twitter that the full results have not been released, they dont want to upset the massive yoon victory narrative

    141. Nana says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Sorry cat. Surely the snp will have the results, can they not put them on their website?


      I wish I knew. I believe it is time for a complete boycott campaign but who would lead it.

      I’ve seen a lot more tweets on this twitter account lately, more unhappy folk.

    142. Wee Alex says:

      Bill Whiteford on Good Morning Scotland talking to Tory.

      Now we know, according to Tories, The SNP can only have a referendum if they get 51% of the vote next month.

      Do they not understand democracy? The Tories rule Westminster on less than 40%. Total power over our lives but that’s OK. You can’t make it up.

      We have a mandate through our Scottish Parliament. He’ll mend the Tories if they try to thwart a democratic decision.

    143. Muscleguy says:

      Those who think these results can be copy-pasted on as rock solid predictions for the GE are wrong. The reason why is turnout. In Local elections turnout is terrible, between 38% and 48% roughly and those most likely to vote are the elderly.

      The elderly will still vote in the GE, but coming in will be lots of other people from other age groups etc who don’t consider local elections worth bothering with, but will make the effort for a GE.

      So we shall see but I’m not counting our losses to the Tories yet. I’ll wait until the count for that. We live in the safest seat in Scotland, Dundee East. Stuart Hosie has a 38.6% lead over his rivals from last time. No point in voting for anyone else.

      I can see the Green’s angst, if they don’t stand anywhere they will stay minor and irrelevant. But also they don’t want to be the party which let the Tories in. The SNP on their part can be more appreciative and helpful when accommodation is offered though, takes two to tango.

    144. Sensibledave says:

      Robert j Sutherland 12.18

      …. I voted Remain Robert together with 60% of my fellow constituents.

      Where I suspect we differ is that I accept the result of the referendum and want us to get a good deal.

      If you read many of the comments here you will see a theme where people need and want and hope that the negotiations end badly. This is because, for entirely selfish political reasons, they figure it will help in achieving Scottish Independence. People keep denying that is the case but you can see it in almost every thread

      Anyway, I was planning on giving you a couple of days whilst we all digest the results of the local elections and try and work out what is happening.

    145. Big Jock says:

      It’s good to hear positive opinions on here. But I do worry that playing the long game could normalise Brexit.

      Waiting for things to happen is not always the best strategy. You can miss what’s right in front of you!

    146. Big Jock says:

      Feck off Dave. Every part of Scotland voted remain. We will not just get told what is good for us.There is no good Brexit deal for a country that didn’t vote for it. That’s what this is about. Had Scotland voted leave we would accept it. But we didn’t and that’s why we are having indi ref 2.

    147. Brian McHugh says:

      Dave, I thought we had agreed that your insight into the outcome of future Brexit negotiations was irrelevant?

      It is not so much the deal between the EU and UK that will be the issue… it is how business reacts to the deal in the coming months and years after Brexit that are the big concern.

    148. Hadrianswall says:

      Arbroath1320, thanks for the link on Ferguslie Park. That helps to debunk the spin about a Tory being elected by the most deprived area in Scotland. One other thing. I know STV is supposed to be proportional. However, it doesn’t feel right that this Tory got elected with only 13% of the first preference. I wonder what councillor in Scotland got in with the smallest vote share.?

    149. IAB says:

      Let the msm crow and get the numbers out in Scotland. The votes are what matter now. The New Tory Party (aka UKIP) will have a short love affair with the English.

    150. K1 says:

      Och he’s great Nana. Thanks it’s good to have someone from ferguslie park explaining what happened and putting it in context.

      Ah feel like a war correspondent sending missives tae family down south ”Scotsplaining’ our STV proportional system and how inevitably it’s very difficult for any party to win a council outright in Scotland. Then explaining first preferences and vote share and finally placing the Tory candidates wins in the context of vote transfers, at times, like paisley, after the 9th count. It’s hard to convey ‘how’ they didn’t win against SNP, they thrashed Labour…but it is worth doing.

      We have to be the news reporters now. Get the truth out. We cannot rely on the msm, more saliently we now know we can bypass them effectively.

    151. Graeme McCormick says:

      A leaflet to every house explaining the BBC lies and asking folk why they pay the licence fee.

    152. Nana says:


      He sure is K1. I spent a good while looking for more info into the Ferguslie result and finally came up with that facebook post.

      We need posters and lots of them, flyers megaphones anything to bypass the colonial media.

    153. Big Jock says:

      Anyone know what the first preference percentages were for all Scotland. That is the only true measure for the general election.

    154. Sensibledave says:

      Brian McHugh

      ….. I take it you still believe that Ms Sturgeon will want to go ahead with indyref2 before Brexit?

      My guess (because that is all it can be – because no one knows the future Brian) is that the SNP will lose a small percentage of their share of the popular vote at the GE. That will let her know she cannot win indyref2 – so my guess is she’ll bottle it.

      You, I assume, think differently. Time will tell.

      As I keep saying, many on wings keep underestimating your opposition.

      If the SNP lose support in the GE, do you think Ms Sturgeon will resign to allow someone else to have a go?

    155. Kingseat says:

      So now the gerrymandering has failed what next for the yoons? Battle lines now firmly drawn The Future (Independence) v The Past (Unionism). All the yoons lies, scaremongering and hostility and still they fail to win. Roll on 8 June and another resounding success for Nicola.

    156. Jonnie says:

      Any idea when we can expect to know the total number of 1st preference votes for each party?

    157. Zeebeving says:

      I only started using Twitter in the last couple of months, since I retired; and whilst I always knew there was some, I have been amazed by the amount of lies that are directed against the SNP / Indy Scotland. Those who are not online are relying on TV, radio and newspapers for their info.
      Wouldn’t it be possible to get the relevant truths collated into a ‘mail drop’ for households, so that they can research the truth further (if they are so inclined) ~ either via internet sites or by asking their politicians directly. I suspect such leaflets might also enliven TV / radio debates in Scotland.

    158. Inkal says:

      Cheers for that link Nana.

      Shame the boy didn’t get in he seems pretty sound.

    159. John Walsh says:

      Moving swiftly on! Whilst pundits and broadcasters pick the bones out of who won, more seats and notionally ever gerrymandering boundaries . The SNP advance. Hopefully they will get rid of cronyism in Scotlands main cities and put a halt to the Ulsterisation of politics in Scotlands main cities egged on by Tompkins Et al , and if they are not running the council, they will be beady eyed sentinels calling out misproprations where they find them.
      The hard fight is apon democracy when the BBC and MSM can print downright lies and aren’t held to account.
      The old are gullible and still trust what Auntie says, they are a lost cause in this GE17.
      The 18-25 year olds are where we need to develop strategies to get them motivated to vote.Most are media savvy and quick at spreading info on social media.
      We need them to vote for their future, and ours.

    160. louis.b.argyll says:

      Keep it quiet, that the Greens are left wing.

      Lest the BBC will be getting their unionists paymasters on air to decry (the Greens) ‘divisive environmentalism’

    161. Wull says:

      Some (over-long) headlines which – alas – will never see the light of day (not even if they are shortened to make them more punchy, something which could easily be done):

      Kippered Tories Win ‘Brexit for Breakfast Vote’ in English Local Elections but Lose on Scottish Indy

      Scottish Unionism Turns Cannibal: Tory Kippers Feast in Labour Fishing Grounds (but SNP Comes Top)

      Scottish Conservatives Eat Labour Allies for Main Course (with Orange Slices for Desert) (but can’t reach SNP)

      Scotland’s Labour Haddies Devoured by Tory Sharks in ‘Vote No’ Waters

      Sturgeon Continues Salmond Trend as SNP Increase Lead: Lesser Fish Switch Places

      Orange-Ina Harrison Ecstatic as Kippered Scottish Tories Surge Down Sink by Making Indy-Ref the Issue

      Full Steam Ahead for Independence: SNP Steady as She Goes in Scottish Council Elections

      Up, Up and Away: Independence Well in Sight as More Vote SNP than Ever in Council Elections

      Voters Prefer SNP to Kippered Tories (who Surge Past Labour)

      SNP Remains on Course as Better Together Allies Batter into Each Other

      SNP clear Winners as Batter Together Sideshow Floors Labour

    162. louis.b.argyll says:

      We’ll see who’s the losers when Tory councillors get down to the business of representing the electorate. And God help any Labour councillors who facilitate Tory sell offs of council services.

      They might have squeezed in, 4th here, 3rd there etc..but..

      They are already on a shoogily peg.. whereas the SNP have driven their pillar deeper into the Scottish bed-rock.. Just above the oil, gold and other wealth hidden beneath our nation.

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      If you read many of the comments here you will see a theme where people need and want and hope that the negotiations end badly.

      You’ve been told and told about this – STOP LYING

    164. AndyH says:

      That syphilis Dave guy doesn’t give up with the pish talk does he?

    165. john says:

      i and many others will never understand why so many people voted tory in north lanarkshire ,or on the broadshide strathclyde.. so many industries lost … mining, car factories, steel works the list goes on … why can our own people see what the Torys are doing to our country, its quite obvious to a 60 yre old.. And they are now going to vote for another 30 yrs of the same

    166. The Proctor Lewis says:

      Hi guys,

      My eyes are just recovering from the hypnotic effect of watching the ballot papers flicking on the counting machines. What I picked up on was quite a lot of papers were endorsed Labour 1 Tory 2 or vice versa, now old and techie as I am but really WTF? What goes on in the minds of some folks, has Scotland become an insane asylum? And as for our own, Jesus wept, a cross ifor each SNP candidate is a spoiled paper you moronic imbeciles.

      Anyway the result was fantastic, Ruth stated publicly that this was a vote on a second referendum, by anyone’s reckoning they lost. Not that it makes any difference, they had their chance in the only arena that had the power to stop it, and they lost there too!

    167. thewaterbeastie says:

      Rare though it may be, there are some collateral impacts that local council representatives CAN have on national/constitutional issues…even if it is in no way a part of their remit or responsibilities.

      Other than that, watching the 2012 pattern of the BBC’s MisReporting Glasgow council seats ramp up to the supersize version of MisReporting Scotland council seats…

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