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When day doesn’t follow night

Posted on July 07, 2014 by

Most people only read one daily newspaper, if that. We, for our sins, read almost all of them, and if you do that you learn stuff that other people don’t know.

jocksteinbench

Firstly, you spot how many agency stories pop up in multiple papers, repeated almost or actually identical, word-for-word. (Though it can also be fascinating to see which paragraphs sometimes get left out.) And secondly, you find out how many stories aren’t the result of journalism, but of one paper’s hack reading something in another paper the day before, lifting the quotes and presenting it to readers as their own story.

(Occasionally they’ll deign to credit the original source, eg “such-and-such made the comments in the Guardian yesterday”, but more often they won’t bother, and will just write “said in an interview” or similar.)

And as with the agency pieces, it’s interesting to note which stories DON’T get stolen.

Yesterday we highlighted a piece in the Sunday Times (crediting and linking the source, of course, as we always do when possible) in which a director of the pro-devolution Reform Scotland thinktank made a stinging attack on the UK government’s pessimistic projections for an independent Scotland’s oil revenues, and claimed that the likely true figure was a breathtaking £8bn a year higher – enough money to completely wipe out even the highest estimates of the country’s deficit.

Pretty big deal, right? So you’d naturally assume that the rest of the media would pick up on a representative of a respectable organisation endorsed by the No campaign making such a dramatic and potentially game-changing statement.

Or at least, you would if you’d never read this site before. So we went through the motions of checking for you, although we knew what we’d find.

DAILY RECORD: nothing
SCOTTISH SUN: nothing
THE SCOTSMAN: nothing
THE HERALD: nothing
SCOTTISH DAILY EXPRESS: nothing
SCOTTISH DAILY MAIL: nothing
GUARDIAN: nothing
COURIER: nothing
PRESS & JOURNAL: nothing
BBC WEBSITE: nothing
STV WEBSITE: nothing

What most papers DO pick up on, however, is an embarrassingly feeble non-story about a tiny handful of businessmen who “feel like” they’ve been pressured by the Scottish Government to remain silent on the subject of independence. It’s based on a Channel 4 “Dispatches” show airing tonight, in which just FIVE business leaders (out of 50 surveyed) said they felt as though there had been “implicit” suggestions hinting that they should stay quiet in the debate.

In other words, 90% of the survey said nobody had tried to exert pressure on them, and of the rest nobody could actually identify or quote a single comment or message, merely a vague feeling. It’s a laughable nothing of a report, yet it’s covered prominently in the Record, the Express, the Sun, the Scotsman (where it’s the front-page lead, no less), the Times, the Mail, the Guardian, the Herald, the Courier, the Press & Journal and, we have no doubt, the Auchtermuchty Observer.

The Sun and Record also both pick up a bizarre piece from the Sunday Times about Scotland manager Jock Stein trying to cancel a 1982 scouting trip to New Zealand before that year’s World Cup because he thought Margaret Thatcher was about to start a nuclear war over the Falklands.

But they don’t think there’s anything even slightly newsworthy about the fact that the UK government is trying to massively mislead Scots about their finances, to the tune of BILLIONS of pounds, in order to scare them into voting No.

As ever, readers can draw their own conclusions.

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    1. 07 07 14 19:52

      Smearing For Beginners Part 3 – The Misdirection | A Greater Stage

    176 to “When day doesn’t follow night”

    1. Walter Scott says:

      Putin can only dream of having such a tame media

    2. Murray McCallum says:

      Trying to pin down accurate, informative and representative Scottish news in the MSM is like navigating to Diagon Alley.

      When you think how the press picked up and reported ad infinitum the downturn in North Sea tax revenues (primarily because of record investment).

      They just do not like “good” news Scottish economic stories and especially ones that contradict Westminster financial projections.

    3. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Rev Stu,

      As a freelance, have you ever sent an indy related article to any newspaper for publication which has been accepted for publication ?

    4. eezy says:

      I said yesyerday that this is massive story.
      We need to make sure this doesn’t go away by continually passing it around.
      We’ve got to get this Mainstream.

    5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      kendo: No.

    6. Flooplepoop says:

      It saddens and angers me at the same time, like most sensible people. I saw a term in my feed that brought it home to me, it’s like boiling a frog, and guess who the frog is…
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

    7. Bunter says:

      Been sharing the Sunday Times and Wings articles on the oil story as best I can, but the business survey is a joke and I wonder if the papers are running with this non story to mask something else in the CH4 prog?

    8. Peter Sneddon says:

      They will be called to account when the TV debates start in earnest. Forget the papers, they are owned by evil self interested establishment goons who soon will have no part to play in our lives. I just can’t wait! In the mean time stop buying them! not even a peek on their websites, as this is revenue for them also. Leave it to Stuart and the team to give us the relevant facts and most outrageous lies.

    9. Harry McAye says:

      Another day when it’s a real pleasure not buying a paper.

    10. david says:

      Not surprised in the least regards the omissions, n fact I would have been flabbergasted if the press reported on this
      .W.o.S is now my main source of info on the referendum followed by Yes Shetland
      Thanks for all your efforts,and hard work in making my life easier.

    11. JWil says:

      The Daily Telegraph appears to have closed down all comments in their Scotland Section. Sinister! Now their unadulterated keech goes unchallenged.

      Shades of Brian’s blog on BBC Scotland.

      It also seems that the dogs have been let out on The Herald this morning.

    12. Les Wilson says:

      After the 19th of September we can have a field day castigating our deceitful press, and making sure the world is listening. The truth will out!

    13. Roll_On_2014 says:

      Rev Stu

      Regarding your answer to kendo.

      Is that (a) you have not sent any or (b) you have sent some but they have not been accepted.

    14. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I wonder if the papers are running with this non story to mask something else in the CH4 prog?”

      The only solid, evidenced thing in the programme appears to be Professor Dunleavy’s complaints about the UK government scandalously misrepresenting his views about the setup costs of an independent Scotland.

    15. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Rev Stu

      Might be an interesting exercise to try a one off and monitor the feedback. ? Just a thought.

    16. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Regarding your answer to kendo”

      It’s (a), although I offered to write a couple of things for the Guardian ages ago. (No reply.)

    17. gordoz says:

      Sadly a predictable result for the ‘North British’ press.

      Very similar manipulation of Orange Order march where there was violance and a number of predictable arrests (18 or so).

      However a rave in the same city with 20 arrests was widely covered and reported (no violence though).

      Makes you wonder untill you watch the very excellent documentary on Lance Armstrong’s doping scandal (channel 4 last night ?).

      If something is sordid enough and implicates enough people who can take advantage of a LIE, then it can easily occur right in front of our eyes.

      The outcome – if it seems to good to be true, then you know what … ?

      As with Armstrong the real truth of the story was even manipulated so as not to affect a Presidential election campaign. (How could results be so consistent ? Checks & tests were done weren’t they ? The gorverning bodies of state, indeed the world was watching how could they be tricked; and yet ?

      As with the hostile press core, the UK state broadcasters, the impartial electoral commission (?) and there 2 yr old persisitent polling which in effect is still showing a 20 point lead for NO, (really ?) after the biggest mobilization of grass roots in politics for several generations, no shift in the UK polling agencies returns ?
      Now there’s a surprise.

      A whistle blower and a ‘crusading journalist’ in search of a simple truth, (play fair and don’t cheat), took down Armstrong.

      Let’s hope we don’t have to suffer a NO vote situation before some bloody journalist smells the proverbial rat’ in the joke that is the polling returns being pumped by the press & media.

      The Lance Armstrong doping story is really an eye opener and well worth a watch folks.

    18. heedtracker says:

      Plus same UKOK creeps bash on endlessly that there’s just not nearly enough information for voters to make the most important decision in the last 2 thousand years or ever! so better vote no then.

    19. proudscot says:

      I know my opinion on the Westminster propaganda arm, aka the BBC and vast majority of the print media, has been expressed many times by posters on this site. However it bears repeating that these pro-UK propaganda spreaders operate on the mushroom principle – “keep the population in the dark and feed them shite!” Unfortunately in many cases, this works especially on those who believe our press and state broadcaster still possess some integrity.

    20. Proud Cybernat says:

      ….readers can draw their own conclusions.”

      They don’t want you to know the truth, people. Keep them blinded, secure the No vote and to hell with them. They think the country is THEIRS and most likely are damned annoyed that you have a vote at all for it means they have to go to all this tiresome work to hoodwink you. And telling so many lies can’t be easy–they eventually catch up with you and are exposed.

      No doubt with this latest failure of Scotland’s media having been exposed here on Wings yet again, another nasty cybernat story will be brewing. Demonise, marginalise, dehumanise–it’s all in their Big Bad Boy’s Book of Dirty Referendum Tricks.

      Don’t let them hoodwink you, people.

    21. Roll_On_2014 says:

      Rev Stu: Thanks for response.

      As kendo states, later, it may be a good idea to send one to the Sunday Herald. See how it goes.

    22. Ken500 says:

      Business man speaks out about pressure to keep silent. Eh. It’s laughable

      Westminster has secretly milked Scotland of the equivalent of £Billions for years. 1/6 of Scotland’s revenues. (£10Billion lost). The EU gets 100th which comes back.

      Preston says the BBC follows the Daily Mail ‘news’. The right wing Press controlled by Westminster, working against the public interest.

      Westminster supported ‘immigrant’ propaganda to deflect from Westminster corruption. The (foreign) multinationals tax evading through the City of London. Westminster and associates tax evade.

    23. HandandShrimp says:

      It will be interesting to see if the Dispatches programme is balanced and fair. I get the feeling from some of the bits I have read that this claim of intimidation is a relatively small thing and the usual Unionist suspects in the press have majored on it rather than address other less favourable things raised in the investigation.

    24. Croompenstein says:

      Oh come on Stu they had to drop this to cover the commonwealth games uniforms.. 🙂

    25. Jim Thomson says:

      Marginally O/T – R4 this morning at approx 8:35, interview with CEO of BAe Systems pressing him on the future building of “warships” for the “UK Government”. He held the line that the indyref was an issue for us and not for his business. Interviewer kept pressing to make him say the indy was bad and union was good. I now have a modicum of respect for that CEO and how he maintained his company’s neutral stance.

      At the end of the recorded interview, when Naughtie took back the reins, his disappointment in the content was palpable.

      Made me smirk. 🙂

    26. galamcennalath says:

      It’s what we all expect from the press. I think it’s now also what we all expect from the broadcast media. And there’s the BBC still claiming there is no bias! Omission IS bias.

      Makes you wonder just how biased they would need to be before actually admitting bias!

      Perhaps if YES win on the 19th the BBC will not report it! Pretend it never happened, and hope no one will notice.

    27. Ken500 says:

      In Scotland 9% of pensioners keep working (lower incomes?) In the rest of the UK it’s 6%.
      Pensioners pay tax. The so called pension deficit?

    28. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Roll_On_2014

      I agree that this should be sent to the SH for what it is; a very big story within an even bigger story.

      This just encapsulates everything that is rotten about the whole independence debate and in particular the hoary old chestnut about ‘lack of information’.

      It’s selective suppression of information IMHO.

    29. Adrian B says:

      Business for Scotland have covered this very subject. Its a long piece but does list a great deal of companies and what they have said about Indyref. The vast majority are not spooked by the prospect and only a minor section of well known doom mongers back the Union just as they did in 1979 and 1997.

      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/what-big-business-has-really-said-about-independence/

    30. BrianW says:

      When ever I read stories on Wings, Newsnet, Bella C, Derek B, Ginger Dug etc, it never ceases to amaze me the way the MSM completely fails to reflect what is really going on, or to carry out basic Journalistic questioning/reporting.

      I once highlighted this in a complaint to the BBC linking one of your stories and wondering where the BBC coverage was by their top class Investigative Journalists. Their response was basically about not taking journalist tips from Wings. The very thought of it, and how very dare I suggest such a thing.

      They would learn a lot about reporting a story, investigating it and reporting the facts, if they did take yours, and other approach.

      Isn’t happening just now. Worse though is the Non Coverage of stories. If it’s not covered it doesn’t exist.

      The BBC stock response to complaints does baffle me though:

      “At the BBC, we are determined to be impartial and fair in our coverage and to bring a range of views to our audiences. The up-and-coming referendum is a long campaign and there have been, and will be, many opportunities across all of our platforms for coverage of the issues. Please be assured that bias plays no part in our reporting. We place the highest value on accuracy and impartiality within our own journalism and rigorous editorial standards are applied across all of our output.”

      I smell Shite…

    31. Ken500 says:

      Dr Murrison UK defence minister, stated warships would continue to be built in Scotland at the Westminster committee.

      Hammond said it would take three years and £27Billion to remove Trident. Later it was ten years and £?’s.

    32. James123 says:

      Does anyone know what is going on with the referendum odds? A few weeks ago Yes was around 2/1 and it seemed only a matter of time before it would be pushing even money. Now the odds are pretty much where they were last year, with some bookies offering 5/1!

      So what has happened in the last few weeks to cause this drastic change? Has the Yes vote collapsed, nope, has their been some monumental disaster involving the Yes campaign, no to that as well.

      I noticed that the pro-Union news agency Reuters published a piece last week claiming that independence was increasingly unlikely and used the bookies lengthening odds as evidence.

      It all seems rather sinister to me.

    33. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @James,

      The groundwork is being prepared for electoral fraud. 🙂

    34. Croompenstein says:

      Stuart, since you read all those rags, did any of them cover the Better Together Orange Walk trouble and arrests or print the picture of the wee lassie with blood streaming down her face?

    35. Gaavster says:

      Plus ca change….

      The more things change, the more they stay the same….

      As you point out Stu, if the ball was on the other foot this would have been plastered everywhere

    36. As you rightly suggested in the previous article. The mainstream media would not pick it up.

    37. heedtracker says:

      Bookies make money when you lose and bookies always win, so the BetterTogether win takes the sucker bets.

    38. Roll_On_2014 says:

      Kendomacaroonbar: at 10.06 am

      I totally agree.

    39. Training Day says:

      @James123

      ‘It all seems rather sinister to me.’

      And to me. The uniformity of the MSM narrative about polls in which No has a ‘commanding lead’ (contrary to many recent canvass returns on the ground), allied to the lengthening of odds on a Yes vote based on goodness knows what, seems to be building a narrative which says that a Yes vote is impossible to achieve, and that therefore an overwhelming No vote returned in September is easier to justify despite what all your senses about people’s voting intentions are telling you.

    40. Paula Rose says:

      Better Together – The Bet To Regret

    41. Luigi says:

      Although this form of bias is pretty obvious to those who actually bother to check sources, the subjective nature of what constitutes a big story makes it very difficult to quantify and analyse. If we could quantify this properly, the MSM would be damned to hell instantly. Unfortunately, like parasites which confuse the host immune system, they deliberately muddy the waters they hide in to avoid detection.

      Prof Roberstons excellent work on the BBC shows that it can be done, but it is not easy. We say “Bias”, they say “Prove it”. Even if we manage to prove it, they (rightly) say “So what, it’s our paper!”

      Thankfully, we can circummvent newspaper deceptions with social meda and a ground campaign. The big concern is the BBC, who, during the official referendum campaign period should now be completely impartial, but have so far failed to demonstrate this. We must focuss on the BBC, to ensure that the corporation now behaves properly during the official refrendum campaign. Keep the pressure on!

    42. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Ignore the bookie odds.

      I do not gamble, but one thing I do know about it is that when big bets land on a specific result the odds shorten on that result. It is nothing to do with the actual likelihood of the result taking place, and entirely to do with the bookies trying to make sure they don’t take a big hit in that most painful of places… their profits.

      There is no reliable indicator of the result, not the polls, because they have their own spin to put on everything, and not the bookies, because everything they do with their odds is based on their chance to make money.

      On the ground canvassing, on the other hand, shows more and more people moving towards Yes in spite of, or possibly because of, the unremitting unionist crap pouring out of the MSM and Westminster.

      People simply are not as stupid as ‘our’ media believes. Most folk have a good instinct for when they are being consistently lied to and the MSM/ Westminster unholy alliance are consistently lying to us, either directly or by ommission.

    43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Stuart, since you read all those rags, did any of them cover the Better Together Orange Walk trouble and arrests or print the picture of the wee lassie with blood streaming down her face?”

      Yes. It’s on the front page of the Record and inside, and also in the Sun (with her face pixellated).

    44. Tattie-bogle says:

      The Polls keep floating around the same levels and keep getting punted about i believe this will be used to cover jiggery pokery with postal votes and rigging “see look at the polls they have been like this for months nothing to see here”

    45. James123 says:

      Yes. It’s on the front page of the Record and inside, and also in the Sun (with her face pixellated).

      In the piece on the DR website their is lots of quotes from Jim Murphy codemning the violence. Because of course the Labour Party has no connections whatsoever to the Orange Order.

    46. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      From the Scotsman:

      One Glasgow resident tweeted: “Orange March is chaos around my flat. Walk home see 3 casualties, 2 arrests and a man punch a seagull.”

      Who knew seagulls were Catholic?

    47. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      kendomacaroonbar says:

      My thoughts too.

    48. Murray McCallum says:

      “… a man punch a seagull”.

      Not sure if that one is down to religion. I think drunken thugs tend to lash out at anything they view as intellectually superior or having a better quality of life.

    49. Kev says:

      @gordoz

      I watched that last night, very good, Armstrong came across very much like most MP’s on the No side (and the compliant media)- arrogant, controlling, power hungry and ofcourse hugely deceitful.

      I have no doubt whatsoever that there will be similair documentaries in a few years time on the deceit, lies and deliberate ommission of certain stories by the MSM in the run-up to the Referendum, and when sitting watching, I just hope Scots will be able to look back with great pride that they had the good sense to ignore it all and secure a Yes vote for their country.. as otherwise it is going to be agonising, especially if we are not given the opportunity again.

    50. bookie from hell says:

      I know Scots are taking in MSM ,negativity without questioning it

      A guy last night to told me outright,in a casino,he was NO

      In conversation he said he was going to aus for 6 months sept,I said he would miss the vote

      he said he wasn’t going till after the vote and was defo NO

      I asked why?

      he repeated every MSM negativity.

      I said the real campaign will start 6 weeks from voting day,will you give YES side a chance to respond to your fears,he said he would.

      then we both proceeded to lose blackjack

    51. galamcennalath says:

      BrianW says:
      The BBC stock response to complaints does baffle me though:
      “At the BBC, we are determined to be impartial and fair in our coverage …. place the highest value on accuracy and impartiality within our own journalism and rigorous editorial standards….”

      They would claim that, wouldn’t they? They lie.

      I smell Shite…

      Yes, a whole Westmidden of it!

    52. heedtracker says:

      No doubt the next OO marches will have huge banners of man punching seagull at the Battle of Cathcart tapestry.

    53. Mary Bruce says:

      @Kendomacaroonbar/ James etc: the bookies odds changed dramatically after a year old story about a massive bet for no was re-released and printed in the media as new. This was then followed by another massive bet on no in the hundreds of thousands. the whole thing stank.

      Maybe they needed more bets on no to mitigate for potential losses. But why would they do this unless they were worried about a yes win..?

      Another reason for the no campaign wanting yes to be trailing is to stem the flow of labour folk from jumping ship, once those floodgates open it’s game over. The more these guys think yes will win the more likely they will be to jump.

    54. Lesley-Anne says:

      I’m always eternally thankful to Stu for highlighting how the BIG stories of the day get covered by the media. It makes me so proud to be someone who is voting NO in September. I mean why would I want to vote YES because as the media keeps informing us all NOTHING of any real importance ever happens in Scotland. Oh wait a minute I think I’ve got something wrong here. Big stories of the day, voting NO, voting YES, nothing happening… Yep I definitely got something wrong here. I wonder how on earth the editors of these *ahem* papers can sleep at night knowing full well that there is a big story out there and yet they completely ignore it, thank goodness I’m voting YES 😉 perhaps after independence well actually get a bunch of paper editors in place who are capable of recognising what constitutes the big story of the day,

      Sorry for going O/T so early but found this and a story abour Broon the Loon on my partner’s Facebook page that may be of interest to a few folks. 😛

      http://tinyurl.com/kmqry3f

      http://tinyurl.com/la6mkzh

      Oh if that story about Broon the Loon doing his utmost *cough* best to bribe the pensioners in Scotland to vote NO then be prepared to be shocked, no that’s wrong, be prepared to be astonished! The party of the people for the people are planning to make some minor tweaks to prescription charges and bus passes.

      http://tinyurl.com/kvynak9

    55. Bunter says:

      I think that social media has forced the hand of the MSM in the past, to cover stories that they wish to ignore, like the Vitol donation for eg. Im sure there are others we have pushed to the fore as well.

    56. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Mary Bruce

      Good points, however cynical me goes for the simplest answer.

      We are being set up.

    57. macart763m says:

      Who knew?

      Massive damage done to one of BTs major scare stories and no bugger will touch it. Well, its a small community right enough this press industry. 🙁

    58. Did we not debunk and dismiss the gagging and sitting on businesses thing last week? Was that not revealed as tommyrot? Why are these papers and BTog perpetually recycling.

      More alarmingly – for any Yes Scotland grandees reading (yes you are, if you get to comments, you are just nay saying nuthing): yesterday I spoke to one of this year’s graduates in Science from a university local to me. SHe shares her flat with a Politics and IR graduate. These are people who are justice-minded enough to work with children w. Autism in their spare time.

      Neither Graduate A nor B(Politics) nor C (not sure) knew anything about the debate beyond that Businesses say they will leave. They do not want change – particularly (no one does for the most part, as a human characteristic). They had very little info on the debate and such as they had from casually garnered TV viewing and the odd reading of a mainstream Scottish Daily Heraldman. These are the intellectuals and folk who will run Scotland when we are old.

      This needs to be addressed beyond Yes Events and beyond chapping on doors.

      I do not know what Yes Scotland and the SNP are doing about Media Coverage and the almost complete one-sidedness of the matter. One hopes in matters beyond indyref there is more parity, equality and fair reporting of both sides. I am not sure re. the Austerity debate in the South.

      This is an issue transcending the Yes Vote.

    59. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @heedtracker

      A mighty victory over the Fenian Air Force…

    60. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Conan

      Who knew seagulls were Catholic?

      If that was on the High Street in Glasgow, it could have been avante garde street theatre?

      Then again an OO Eejit.

      If we take all the warning notices off all the bottles of cleaning fluid, algicide, paint thinner and other poisonous liquids Darwin would sort them all out. Much cheaper than paying their policing bill?

    61. galamcennalath says:

      bookie from hell says:
      he said he wasn’t going till after the vote and was defo NO
      I asked why?
      he repeated every MSM negativity.

      The really sad thing is, if there is a No win, then austerity and Scot-wing-clipping will descend quickly upon us. And, huge numbers of No voters are going to realise they have made a terrible mistake with consequences they failed to see coming!

    62. Robert Peffers says:

      If evidence is needed of how the, “Establishment”, works to suppress things they want kept quiet the post a couple of days ago on this site hit a very large nail squarely upon its head. It said they should look for the missing Westminster sex abuse Dossier where they discovered the McCrone Report.

      It is now also claimed Geoffrey Dickens gave a copy of the file to prosecutor Sir Thomas Hetherington. So it looks like the DPP are also complicit in suppressing the scandal that is claimed to go right inside Downing Street. If they can suppress something like that will think they can suppress anything.

    63. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Conan the Librarian

      I didn’t know that pugilists of the OO were Gull able ?

      I’ll get my cape…

    64. Bunter says:

      Another thing regards these polls, if you think about Darlings reckless tactic of ruling out a CU which would be a disaster for the rUK economy if it came to pass, what you have is a scenario of the polls showing a steady rise in YES, some say only a small swing required for indy, then it must be imperative for Westminster to show to the markets, by any means, that a NO vote is assured.

      With decision day closing in, an apparent close run thing would be huge doo doo for Westminster, the markets and economy and they would be forced to concede a CU pre the vote.

      Blair Jenkins was quite right to say that YES will not be shown to be in the lead until probably the last minute, if at all, as it simply will not be allowed.

    65. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Peter McBeastie at 10.25

      You are right. The odds are wrong. They are being used as a political tactic.
      The bookies odds on the Referendum are false and partly as a result of a collusion between Better Together and William Hills (who have been the accomplice on several fantasy betting stories). The majority of bets have been on a YES result but the odds on YES are very generous again because of the manipulation going on. The £400,000 bet that Hills reputedly took is hilarious. No bookie takes a £400,000 bet They take bets like that in bits reducing the odds at every £50,000 taken for instance.

      On a more serious note I note the emphasis has shifted . After an attack on NHS Scotland, coordinated across the whole press for about two months, the attack has moved on. NHS Scotland has been dropped and I suggest we are now onto pensions

    66. Lesley-Anne says:

      kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Conan the Librarian

      I didn’t know that pugilists of the OO were Gull able ?

      I’ll get my cape…

      Perhaps he was just following the ideals of his and the O.O. beliefs kendo. I am assuming here that it was a black headed gull and thus he was able to act on behalf of the Klu Klux Klan. 😛

      http://tinyurl.com/mlkryk3

    67. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ Bugger

      Darwin is working, the lack of anything green in their diet is beginning to show…

    68. magnus barelegs says:

      to the msm and the disgraceful bbc aka westminster propaganda arm, a lie is the truth and the truth is a lie or gets left out by omission. thing is you can only throw so much cr@p before people start getting wise to it. and what we are seeing here is regurgitation of the same nonsensical stories time and again ad nauseum from the same suspects, those monkeys at westminster and the obedient chimps in the msm/bbc really should get a new script writer.

    69. Croompenstein says:

      The seagull must have ‘looked’ at him the wrong way! Steven Seagull will be on the case..

    70. Lesley-Anne says:

      Here’s something just for those currently discussing the odds in the betting shops concerning a YES or NO win in September. 😛

      http://tinyurl.com/pslursj

    71. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Re Bookies odds.. Can anybody recall how the betting odds panned out for the previous 2 Scottish elections ?

    72. Allan28 says:

      There is however an interesting story which does appear in the Press & Journal at least – albeit hidden in the business pages and not in the Independence pages.

      The quarterly survey of CFOs carried out across major companies by Deloitte found that respondents were much more concerned about risks to their businesses likely to arise from the 2015 UK General Election and an EU referendum than they were the Scottish Independence referendum. The survey details can be accessed via

      http://tinyurl.com/6a9abmj

    73. Clootie says:

      They don’t need to win votes.
      They plan is obvious full fear factor and hope to squeeze over the winning line (perhaps with a few minor adjustments).

      All we can do is more of what has been done and push the vote past the manipulation stage. They can only manipulate a couple of percentage points at best.

      Don’t focus on what we can’t do – focus on what we can.

      The media is theirs.

    74. Andy Nimmo says:

      One thing concerns me and, I may be wrong, but now that the right wing media have got the taste for manipulating facts etc, why stop with the sinister treatment of the YES Movement. Why not continue the same tactics on to the Labour Party in 2015.
      I have tried to cover this in
      http://justinfayresweeklyrant.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/the-ghost-of-christmas-future/
      If I was considering voting NO in the belief of getting a more radical Labour Government, I’d be very scared.

    75. heedtracker says:

      Back to Islamic terror threat to Aberdeen, full day of vote no BBC bettertogether frighteners.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/

    76. R-type Grunt says:

      @ galamcennalath

      “The really sad thing is, if there is a No win, then austerity and Scot-wing-clipping will descend quickly upon us. And, huge numbers of No voters are going to realise they have made a terrible mistake with consequences they failed to see coming!”

      No they’re not. They’re going to carry on just like they do now – continuing to not give a fuck about their fellow Scots! Except with an even bigger sense of smug self-satisfaction.

      Vote Yes.

    77. ian foulds says:

      watching all of this from afar, I am at a disadvantage in knowing how these scurrilous lies and misinformation are being highlighted to the Scottish people when you are constrained by a toadying media.

      all you good people are indeed trying(and succeeding)to spread the word but who is helping you and what is YES Scotland doing to bring the good news, along with fudge/lies and silence by BT, to our compatriots in order they make an informed decision based on more balanced information?

    78. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I think that all the online bookies and the shops which evolved from them were started by City spread betters, who developed the mathematics on foreign currencies.

      These would be the same City types who give so generously to the Conservative Party.

      What is the odd £100,000 strategically and timeously placed on No.

      Hell, they could crowd fund that out their pocket change.

      I wonder if we could crowd fund a £50,000 bet to see

      a) if any bookie would take it?

      B) what odds we would get?

      c) how that would affect the odds of Yes and No?

    79. heedtracker says:

      Plus months old ukok news from the freak show at Pacific Quay
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28183860

    80. gordoz says:

      O/T sorry : One small independent success story, against the odds.

      But this observational piece needs wider coverage in my view. Pretty much concur with this perception of where we are and the chance we have in our grasp.

      Come on lets be brave and smart. Lets take it !

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/07/06/letter-from-hanoi-vietnam/

    81. Anne says:

      I see a resemblance between the tactics used here and those used prior to the referendum on proportional representation.PR was counter to the vested interests of the main parties even though it offers voters a better chance of getting the governments they vote for. And although the version of PR on offer was a relatively modest one the Tories and Labour briefed heavily against it, and demonized the groups supporting electoral reform. There is a similar approach this time, I think, and as before the fact that the arguments in support of a NO vote are often not mutually consistent doesn’t seem to matter. Repeated negativity is intended to ensure that people are reinforced in their wariness towards change rather than listening carefully to the logic underpinning the case – which as we know is usually either wrong or deliberately misleading.

    82. hetty says:

      I have noticed that the msm are either silent or negative or lying with regards anything to do with Independence. It is a bloody disgrace. The uk westminster lot and their compliant msm are terrified of losing Scotland’s oil and the billions it is due to bring in revenues for many years to come. If they were sensible they would be negotiating with Scotland about how much they will be able to afford to pay Scotland for their electricity supply etc.
      They could actually do themselves a favour. What a bonus, to have an oil rich country as your closest neighbour, with whom you could have reciprocal agreement on all manner of things, instead we have the scares and scorn. A more civilised approach would be much more admirable, even a more intelligent and more enlightening approach would be to everyone’s benefit rather than the present bullying tactics.

    83. Bunter says:

      O/T

      New poll in Guardian suggests businesses see the UK general election and EU referendum as main risks, ahead of indyref.

      How inconvenient LOL.

    84. gordoz says:

      O/T Lance Armstrong Doping documentary – a must see for how conspiracies can be perpetuated right in front of the people.

      @ Kev says –

      Cheers that at least 2 of us who have seen it. What a travesty and tolerated for so long because it suited the establishment need.

      The similarities to the indy ref ‘State shenanigans’ slowly emerge. As in Dohh!

    85. liz g says:

      Anyone know what happens

      to the ballot papers after the count?

    86. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @ Kendo

      Well done for working ‘gull’ into that.

    87. Jim Duthie says:

      For all you lot fretting about bookies’ odds – according to them Paul Hanagan’s horse had nae chance of winning the Eclipse on Saturday. Guess what? He did!!! YES is ahead and will win in September – have no doubt about that.

    88. gordoz says:

      Thought NO side say Alex Salmond is supposed to be some sort of dictator ?

      Is this not a bit presumptuous ?

      pic.twitter.com/t3D8BXFnXQ

    89. Ken500 says:

      BT NHS. Good luck with that.

      A Report on England NHS says NHS funding will be £30Billion short by 2020 (Scotland Barnett less £3Billion?)

    90. gordoz says:

      (Sorry – mucked up address)

      Thought NO side say Alex Salmond is supposed to be some sort of dictator ?

      Is this not a bit presumptuous ?

      https://twitter.com/Khyberman/status/485744518449606656/photo/1

    91. jim gallacher says:

      Those of us of an age to remember the Vietnam war will remember when reporters were free to report the truth.
      Day after day we were given the body count and day after day the Americans were appalled to such an extent that the US capitulated and put an end to the war.
      They then came up with the embedded journalist strategy, they were then in control of the media output and there and then a piece of democracy died.
      all governments across the world learned well and we are now seeing this with our own eyes, we even have the pleasure of paying for it with our license fee.

    92. Patrick Roden says:

      Great article again Rev,

      Can I just ask all you wingers who may not use twitter to reconsider.

      It is one of the best ways to reach people at the moment.

      Just consider myself, who has a very modest 4 hundred and odd followers.

      I will pop over to twitter after this and copy this article to my followers. they will often in turn copy to their own followers, who in turn…you get the drift.

      So with a few clicks of my finger, I am getting a message that will reach thousands of non wings readers, and will often reach many NO’s DK’s.

      I have recently engaged a firm no in a mini debate, and although he didn’t change his mind he became my follower, my main point to him was that although he may THINK No is the right way to vote, this is only because the BT campaign has been lying to him. I always ask people if they would vote for anyone who was knowingly lying to them and of course they always say no, so I ask them to do ore research and ask if they have looked at Wings.

      So give it a go folks, and please follow me (I’m in my own name) if your not sure don’t worry it’s as easy as looking at wings.

      Oh and it might be good to follow wings as well :-0

      Those worried about polls should have a look at the Scot goes pop blog.

      Scottish skier is a regular commenter and it is very encouraging when you see what they write.

    93. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Conan

      Thank you sirrah,

      It was just a flight of fancy and thought I’d wing it 🙂

      Ponder this… Why do you never see baby seagulls ?

    94. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Patrick Toden

      I just can’t get my head around twitter, and don’t know how to make a post or to whom?

    95. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      kendoonmacaroonbar

      Or pigeons?

      Why have penguins no knees?

    96. Robert Peffers says:

      @Lesley-Anne says: 7 July, 2014 at 10:49 am

      “I found this and a story abour Broon the Loon”.

      Arithmetic was my worst subject at School but I didn’t need a certificate in the subject to know Broon’s claims were totally implausible.

      Neither did I require a certificate to understand that Scottish Labour’s promise to bring back prescription charges was a shot to Scottish Labour’s left foot and Davidson’s Committee pronouncement a bull’s eye on Scottish Labour’s right foot.

      With the great increase in Labour foot injuries throughout Scottish A&E departments of recent years the independent Scottish NHS would benefit greatly by a NO vote and the demise of the Unionist foot shooters after the referendum.

      Another thing I noted was the Scottish NHS group who claimed that the Independent Scottish NHS would be better off as part of the UK. Are these numpties for real? Don’t they know that the Scottish NHS has always been independent of the UK NHS since there was any NHS?

    97. bookie from hell says:

      Clootie says:
      7 July, 2014 at 11:13 am
      They don’t need to win votes.
      They plan is obvious full fear factor and hope to squeeze over the winning line (perhaps with a few minor adjustments).

      You NAILED it Clootie’thats why if a NO vote,will be won on negativity ( : > (

    98. G H Graham says:

      There’s a really simple explanation for the behaviour of the media.

      As Stu’s posters & adverts on the Glasgow underground pointed out, almost all of the print media in Scotland is owned by businesses in England. And some of those business units are subsidiaries of corporations in the USA & elsewhere.

      And the evidence is clear; Scotland will be economically better off after independence but the corollary means that the rUK (effectively England) will be much worse off.

      The rUK will have a higher ratio of national debt to GDP, a lower GDP per person than Scotland, a continuance of flat productivity, a runaway house price bubble in London, higher unemployment & the continuance of a chronic negative trade balance versus a healthy positive trade balance for Scotland.

      While both countries will have to deal with the increase in the number of old people to care for, it is Scotland that will be better off since it will have the opportunity to increase immigration. And finally, pensions in an independent Scotland will be cheaper to finance for the simple reason that people here live shorter lives.

      Furthermore, England currently has no choice but to import energy from Scotland. But generators here are punished when they connect to the National Grid. That won’t happen in an independent Scotland so the cost to distribute energy should fall.

      When faced will all this worrying financial data for the rUK, it is entirely understandable that the print media will fight tooth & nail to keep Scotland in the union.

      It is nevertheless quite sad & pathetic that they peddle lies & comical scare stories in attempt to frighten Scots into voting NO on the basis that it is the Scots who will suffer most.

      This is the biggest fraud conducted by the British media since the production of nationwide propaganda used to fight Nazi German during WW2.

    99. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Kendomacaroonbar

      I prefer kendoonmacaroonbar

    100. magnus barelegs says:

      westminster seems to have quite a problem with high ranking pd file politicians, sums up what a filthy corrupt and rotten place that is.

    101. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      magnus barelegs

      You see, they are above the Law, it says so in our written constitution.

      So, all the whores, queers (real sexual deviants) and comic singers try to get in Westminster or play with those who have made it.

      Safety in like numbers.

    102. Nana Smith says:

      Query from a concerned voter. A woman I spoke with today asked if there is a number on a voting slip which corresponds with the voters name, address etc.

      She says if there is does that mean the powers that be know who or what you voted for as she always believed a vote was private. Another point she made was if the votes are tampered with could that slip number be checked to see if that voter was cheated.

      I honestly couldn’t answer so hoping someone here knows.

    103. desimond says:

      Dont forget Robert Pestons ‘Scotland: For Richer For Poorer” also on tonight. Somehow i suspect he may deem our divorce request as financial suicide

    104. magnus barelegs says:

      a real den of inquity, time to get away from them and their rotten vile parliament.

    105. Dan Huil says:

      So-called “professional” journalists working for “traditional” newspapers are angry because of the success of sites like WOS,NNS and Bella etc. These “experts” working for unionst propaganda sheets like the Daily Record see their “expertise” being debunked on a daily basis and they don’t like it.
      Boycotting these rags is the best answer.

    106. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @BtPanda

      Calmdoonmacaroonbar, says ma main squeeze 🙂

    107. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Kerdoonetc

      🙂

    108. Dan Huil says:

      @ Nana Smith. I believe your name is recorded along with the numbered voting slip, so, yes, your voting preference can be traced, but only for three months after the vote, after which all voting papers should be destroyed. I think it has something to do with possible accusations, being made within that three month period, of political and voting fraud which need to be investigated by the police.
      If I am wrong I apologize in advance.

    109. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @BtP

      Sorry bud, you’ve lost me there 🙂

    110. Andrew says:

      Slightly off topic.

      The Yes Scotland Information Hub in Stirling is crowdfunding for four advert trailers to cover the Stirling constituency. These will be vital in helping secure a Yes vote in the referendum on 18th September.

      We would appreciate the help of the readers of this site as you have been generous in the past in helping other similar causes.

      Our crowd funding page is at:

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-ad-trailer-campaign

      Please visit and donate what you can afford. If you are unable to donate then please help by sharing this link on Facebook and Twitter.

      Thank you for your support.

    111. bookie from hell says:

      bbc 2 tonight —9pm

      Scotland:For Richer or Poorer?

      Robert Peston

      I hope REV takes notes

    112. The Man in the Jar says:

      Associated Press are now using robots to produce reports.

      “The Associated Press announced in an advisory to customers today that the majority of U.S. corporate earnings stories for our business news report will eventually be produced using automation technology.”

      The Scottish MSM beat them to it years ago! 🙂

      http://blog.ap.org/2014/06/30/a-leap-forward-in-quarterly-earnings-stories/

    113. bookie from hell says:

      sorry desimond,never saw your post

    114. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Kendo

      Never mind.

      Sometimes I lose myself, though it is really fantastic when I find myself again.

      ????

    115. macart763m says:

      @Dan Huil

      I have no problem with that idea at all. If they don’t speak for us or offer a balanced platform for our pov, then why should we support them and their living in any way shape or form?

      Its a free market with freedom of choice, they should be perfectly aware of how marketing works and if they’re not, then the more fool them. They chose political agenda and patronage over journalistic or representational standards. Or in other words, they made their bed, now they can lie in it.

    116. Sinky says:

      Another businessman backing YES in Sunday Times

      “My own view in 2009 was that maintenance of the status quo represented the greater risk to the Scottish business — potentially denying it the investment and focus required to realise its growth strategy. There was actually less strength and security continuing to be part of the broader enterprise. Any business not growing at the rate it should be is at best moribund. If you worked in one you’d soon be looking to join another business.”

      http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/scotland/article1431155.ece

    117. YESGUY says:

      I said before and i will say it again.

      The polls are no big deal. The fact is we will never see a “lead” for yes votes. Not even on the day. This is just one of the targets to put people off voting. Voter apathy is BT/NT/UKOK ‘s aim.

      Ignoring the polls and negativity is the only way forward for us. I have done so for months and don’t get as angry as some of you Wingers do. The state are against us and we have no support in the MSM to counter their claims.

      Just remember, YES voters WILL turn up and vote, that is certain and going by most of the No voters i have seen, they will be too busy cadging money for their Buckie. Every YES voter can remember that. WE will turn out big time.

      It’s a shame that even if we lose this referendum there will be no end. far too many folk know the truth and more and more each day are being put off by the negativity and vile abuse of the campaign.Remember too, some YES voters are keeping quiet about their vote as the have witnessed the abuse of others.

      I say keep up the good work and we will get there. Barring a fixed referendum result. I know it’s hard but “keep the heid” The commonwealth games will take the spotlight off but we must be prepared for afterwards.

      The silence in the the SNP camp tells us they are biding their time. Maybe then we will see what wee ECK’s got up his sleeve. IT’s a marathon folks . Don’t want to kick on to quickly for fear of running out of sleep.

      We’re winning . They know it. Deep down in your gut YOU know it.

    118. Wings Over Reality says:

      Wings Over Scotland: If only 10% of cases of intimidation are genuine, it’s cool, yeah?

    119. Les Wilson says:

      When you look at Stu’s list of well all the MSM in all it’s forms, there must be a conclusion of organised conspiracy.
      Someone, somewhere is in charge of this. My opinion would be GCHQ, who have all the technical means to do this.

      There are too many, attacks on everything Scottish simultaneously. From FMQ’s to all that is reported via the MSM at the same time. In my mind for all of them calling the same tune at the same time seems impossible otherwise.

      Looking at the list, if they were reporting or indeed as is this case not, reporting. Someone would get things wrong, someone would slip if, if not tightly organised.
      We need whistle blowers to blow the lid off this, as it is certainly happening, all this is no coincidence.

    120. Nana Smith says:

      @Dan Huil

      Thanks Dan.

      I think from talking with this woman her intention was to check her vote hadn’t been tampered with.

      She is voting Yes and feels with each passing day Westminster will tamper with the votes. To be honest I’m concerned about this as well.

    121. handclapping says:

      @Nana Smith
      Your electoral number is recorded on the counterfoil of your voting paper. The conterfoils are sealed and kept seperately from the voting papers for 1 year after the election in case of challenge to the result and then all papers are destroyed.

      In the case of the Glenrothes bye election where the marked registers of who voted were lost, the registers were reconstructed from the voters roll and the counterfoils under strict rules from Westminster.

      Stuffing ballot boxes is not the way to fiddle an election, put false names and addresses on the register, apply for postal votes for them and Bob’s you uncle. There were about 2000 “excess” voters registered for that Glenrothes election which the Government had to win.

    122. scottish_skier says:

      Patrick Roden says:

      Those worried about polls should have a look at the Scot goes pop blog.

      James Kelly does an excellent job (part of the reason I decided I didn’t need to do the same) and scotgoespop is a must for people wanting info on polling. All is not as it seems / what the MSM would like people to think.

      I’m putting my more in-depth thoughts on there mainly now given it can get lost on the ever busier Wings.

    123. Rob Ross says:

      Major reason to legislate against political, business and corporate interests’ control of public media. DEMOCRATISE!

    124. Red Road Flats?!?!?! says:

      According to the Channel 4 / Dispatches website, in tonight’s programme “Antony Barnett goes on the campaign trail with both sides of the Scottish independence debate to investigate claims of dubious tactics and misinformation.

      “And, as passions run high on both sides, Dispatches looks at the role of social media in this landmark referendum.” Given this site’s rather prominent role in the debate (and your occasional media appearances), I wondered if Channel 4 / Dispatches have been in touch for any comment or input? WoS does seem like an obvious source for this investigation.

    125. jake says:

      What “Dispatches” should be looking at is not just a handful of business folks who feel like they’ve beeen implicitly pressured, but journalists who might feel the same.

    126. Wp says:

      YesGuy, couldn’t agree more. The more the polls are showing No winning does us no harm. On the day a lot of No voters will not even vote if they think its already won. And no matter what all Yes voters will vote. If Yes were to go in front in the polls, it would sound good but this is not a local by-election. This is a threat to end the British empire, if you think dirty tricks have been bad up till now,you ain’t seen nothin yet. dubious polls showing No suddenly going further ahead recently doesn’t fool anyone. Ask yourself, do you know one person who has moved from Yes to No ? Yet they are asking us to believe that many people have done just that.

    127. Jim Graham says:

      Dear Rev

      With regard to you writing in the mainstream press –

      I think you should do an ‘editor’s pick’ of the 10 most effective lies of the No campaign, debunking them as you always do, and pass this, in a ‘no-holds-barred’ article to the Sunday Herald. It should be headlined simply, ‘Biggest lies of the Union in the independence debate’.

      Acceptance and publication of such, from the unfairly maligned you, would get good information out there and would also show us ‘yessers’ that the Sunday Herald really is willing to stand up and be counted.

      Just a thought.

    128. aitchbee says:

      @James123
      The bookies odds just tell you where the money is going. The odds change such that when added up(in decimal form) they add up to more than 1. This then tells you how much profit the bookie will make.

      For example:
      If Yes is 3/1, which is 0.25, and No is 1/4 which is 0.80 … adding these gives 1.05, which means roughly for every £1 that is put on, the bookie should make 5p profit

      The odds change to ensure that the bookie makes a profit – generally around 13p per £1, but not always.

      (with thanks to my friend Taurocretan, who is an assistant manager in a bookies)

    129. Proud Cybernat says:

      Take a photo of your ballot paper with your mobile. It might be useful and is always something to show the grandweans.

      Use pen AND pencil to mark your cross. (I asked at the Euro elections if I could use a pen rather than the daft wee pencils they give you. I was told I had to use a pencil as the counting machines can detect the graphite in the lead pencil but not ink. I then asked if I could mark my X with a pen and then go over it with a pencil and they said that should be okay. Am I paranoid or just taking all precautions?)

    130. wingman 2020 says:

      There are things that can be done when the MSM in your own country is biased and manipulative:

      1. Articles to global news outlets that create enough noise, that have to get ongoing attention

      2. A mass event / demonstration / flash crowd / civil disobedience that has to be reported

      3. Mass coordinated petitions / letters to MP’s – hundred thousand letters

      4. Chain letters to neighbours.

    131. crazycat says:

      @ Nana Smith

      I was going to reply to you, but Dan pre-empted me; what he said is right.

      Every ballot paper has a number printed on it; when the polling clerk has handed you your paper, (s)he writes that number next to your name on the roll, which is then crossed out to show that you have voted. I assume that if you accidentally spoil your ballot and request a new one, the number will be crossed out and replaced too.

      In theory, that enables your vote to be checked, but in practice this is (officially) only done where fraud is suspected, and only after a number of electoral commission hoops have been jumped through. So either side should be able to request verification. I’m more worried about whole ballot boxes disappearing.

    132. wingman 2020 says:

      @proud cybernat

      Be careful, the pen might cause the paper to be automatically spoiled. Just lean very heavy with the pencil 🙂

    133. Nana Smith says:

      Handclapping & crazycat

      Thanks for replies. I’ll be seeing the lady on Thursday so will pass on the info.

    134. crazycat says:

      As so often, while I was carefully crafting a reply ( 🙂 ), someone else got there first, with more detail.

      Whether it’s a counterfoil or a number on the electoral roll (I may very well be misremembering, even though it’s only a month and a bit since I last voted!), the end result is the same.

      At those Euro elections, there was some discussion about the legality of photographing one’s ballot paper, after a number of politicians in the Netherlands took “selfies” in the voting booth. There was a suggestion that in the UK it would be illegal, so maybe not a good idea. I’m not sure if that applies to photos of the completed ballot, or only to pictures including yourself.

    135. Luigi says:

      Let the pollsters spread their manure – it will end up on their faces just like it did in 2011. Every opinion poll showing a healthy NO lead actually lets the soft NOs and undecideds leaning toward NO off the hook. They may not turn out.

      Put yourself in their fearful, confused shoes. Why get off the fence and do something really negative, why vote against Scotland, your country, when NO is already a foregone conclusion? In this case, abstaining absolves one of responsibility and clears the conscience! It’s far easier to live with yourself if you did not support independence (this time), than if you actively voted against it.

    136. tiderium says:

      people talking about bookies and odds and so on. have a look at http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome looks like a win for no but if you look at the pie chart down the bottom it shows most popular bets with yes having 58.55% of the bets and no having having 41.45% of the bets. I’m no bookie but that strikes me as a bit odd. contradicting the odds offered by the bookies. Or am I way off the mark?

    137. Proud Cybernat says:

      Imagine the ballot paper design is leaked. What’s to stop copies of it being made, and someone then placing a handful of them into the ballot box along with their official paper. What is their to stop that occurring? It’s not like the ballot papers have we holograms or anything?

    138. Proud Cybernat says:

      Sorry – “there” not “their”.

    139. Luigi says:

      BT-No Thanks have a really hard sell over the next few weeks. In order to galvanise the soft NOs and leaning towards NO to actually vote, they will at some stage have to admit that the YES vote is still growing and may actually win!

      If they get the timing wrong, however, a momentum towards YES may encourage people of this group to go with the flow and jump on the YES bandwagon. What to do?

      Quite a dilemma. My heart bleeds.

    140. is anyone who reads wings surprised ? I think not , that is why we can do the yes campaign
      a huge favour , and help to get more people on line ,
      your knowledge might be the final piece of the jigsaw , that enables someone to get on line
      and contribute , if all they do is read wings , it will not be wasted
      keep up the good work rev stu and thanks

    141. chalks says:

      You’ll find that the odds for a No changed just as the Yougov poll came out….you know THAT yougov poll….seems to me it’s the only pollsters the bookies really pay attention to….not sure why

    142. Boorach says:

      @ Proud Cybernat

      The number of completed ballot papers at each polling station are totalled from the marked rolls. The ballot papers in each box are counted when the box is first opened at the count. Those totals should be the same or the returning officer should be taking action.

    143. big jock says:

      Drove through a mean wee town with union Jacks on every lampost on way to work. Thought it reminded me of Belfast…very depressing. Went for a walk at lunchtime in Blythsood Square saw a bitter together van being loaded with boxes of propaganda. Went to the Works and purchased a Saltire and Lion rampant flag. Walked back past said van waiving them from my shopping bag…if looks could kill. When I drive back through the mean wee town. windows will be opened and flags will be fluttering. Well as the ad says :”Every little helps”.

    144. James123 says:

      Dont forget Robert Pestons ‘Scotland: For Richer For Poorer” also on tonight. Somehow i suspect he may deem our divorce request as financial suicide

      Whenever I have read or watched anything by Robert Peston on Scottish independence he always manages to crowbar the words Greece, Portugal or Cyprus into his reports. Never successful countries like Norway, Denmark, Finland etc..Funny that.

    145. North chiel says:

      Agree with “yes guy”, the gloves will come off in the final 2
      Weeks, the leadership have to keep their “powder dry” until
      The “critical stage ” .the positive rational logical arguments must
      Continue to “trump” no negativity.The timing of the introduction of
      The cultural and latterly more emotive tone as regards this debate
      Is “absolutely critical” ( see article by Lesley Riddoch on Newsnet Scotland)
      I am convinced that our First minister and YES leadership are
      Aware on this. The stakes are indeed SO HIGH !

    146. Andy-B says:

      The days of the lying national press are numbered, social media and online blogs, are the REAL source of information now. Take the London owned and anti-independence Daily Record, for instance today they give Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale a three quarter page spread to spout misinformation.

      Miss Dugdale claims the Scottish NHS is stronger due to being part of the UK, when infact the Scottish NHS has always been a separate entity from the rest of the UK’s NHS. Infact south of the border the NHS is in a dire state, with the most profitable sections, cherry picked for privatisation.

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/kezia-dugdale-nhs-must-plan-3822668

    147. Jim McIntosh says:

      Walked into Lidl earlier and saw that Express headline “SNP Bid to Silence Business Chiefs”, flipped over to page 5 to read the story and straight away picked up the fact that 5 out of 50 had been contacted in some way. So that’s one in ten.

      14 others claimed to know of other business people who felt under pressure. Pretty hypothetical stuff, do they all know the same people, are these ‘business people’ the same ‘famous five’ mentioned earlier.

      The headline is totally misleading – I’ve been in a bad mood ever since :(.

    148. Ethel Cardew says:

      One only has to remember the sterling job the Scottish MSM media did at reporting facts regarding the implosion and demise of the Rangers football club to see what kind of reporting of facts will happen here. Scottish Journalists are considered a joke in the profession If I were one based in Scotland I would be looking to get out asap if I ever wanted to be respected as a serious jouno outside of the Scottish borders.

    149. arthur thomson says:

      I am loathe to put blind faith in any individual on such an important matter as Scotland’s future. However, I think the best political brains that Scotland has are working for Yes and that over the piece their superior brainpower will show through. What is most important of all is that they have the continued support of the grass roots. This is a political struggle akin to the violent struggle that the Vietnamese had to win, where all the weapons seemed to be on the side of their overwhelmingly bigger opponents. A combination of hard graft and guile won the day. Yes will win.

    150. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Wings Over Scotland: If only 10% of cases of intimidation are genuine, it’s cool, yeah?”

      There isn’t a scrap of evidence that there was ANY intimidation at all. 10% of people said they “felt like” they were being “pressured”, but couldn’t offer a single sentence or comment from any Scottish Government figure to support it.

    151. Jamie Arriere says:

      Did someone say the Scotch Whisky Association was one of the organisations “intimidated”? The same SWA which has been so intimidated, it is taking the Scottish Govt through the European courts trying to nullify a electorally mandated govt policy on minimum pricing? The poor helpless lambs.

      By the way, how does Reform Scotland feel about being totally blanked by the UK media? Have you asked them, Rev?

    152. Grouse Beater says:

      Pressure?

      Pressure to be diplomatic, not ‘intimidation’?

      You mean the wag of an index finger and a raised eyebrow?

      Our captains of industry should try working as miners. Union infiltrated by MI5, vicious attacks on their rights by press and media, gates closed to employees, scab labour brought in, ban on picketing, ban on groups of more than three, horse and baton charges, mass redundancies, mines closed, death of entire communities.

      Now that’s pressure!

    153. Brotyboy says:

      @ Andrew

      That’s posts on 2 consecutive days now which, when added to last weekend’s, make at least 4 making an identical appeal for funds.

      Please leave it at that.

    154. Wings Over Reality says:

      Cool but, you know, do many people send out formal letters of intimidation so there’s a handy paper trail?

    155. Paula Rose says:

      Perhaps they use telepathy?

    156. Bob Sinclair says:

      They call us Nazis, lie to our pensioners, intimidate their staff, allow the blight of sectarianism to flourish, tell us we’re ‘TWTPTS’, try to steal our currency, tell us we’ll be kicked out of Europe but we’ll have to use the Euro, stifle and frustrate debate.

      Remind me, just who the F*** the Bu?lies are.

    157. Paula Rose says:

      @ Bob Sinclair – a bunch of nobs dear.

    158. Wings Over Reality says:

      Dammit. What use is ‘Notice of Intimidation’ headed paper if they’re not going to use it?

    159. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Oh right. If this thing had happened, there might not be any readily accessible documentary evidence. Let’s all just assume that any old assertion is true then. Even when nobody actually seems to have made that assertion.

    160. Kestral says:

      PEOPLE TIME FOR ACTION

      we all know we will never get a fair chance in the press
      we all know we will never get a fair chance with the BBC

      we all know this and we will all know it for the next 10 weeks

      but what matters is making the don’t knows into yes

      we can sit on our asses and post about it for the next 10 weeks or we can organise an army for Scotland (peaceful)

      lets use pie charts that highlight the huge savings we can make in our budget by going independent (trident / house of lords)

      lets show people how little is lost in benefit fraud compared to what is spent on defense – if you remove the fear with perspective you remove the right wing press power over people

      lets use the stats like

      3750 benefit detectives to find 1.7 billion fraud – 300 tax evasion officers to find 70 billion

      Lets show people what canning the fraud of the super rich could mean for every one of us

      How about showing what a difference 1000 people finding work means for our economy

      1000 benefit claimants
      250 of them receive housing benefit

      Say the majority, 500 get a £16,000 job
      400 get a £24,000 job
      100 get a £30,000 job

      JS Benefit £70 52wks 1000 3,640,000
      Housing Bft £100 52wks 250 1,300,000

      4,940,000.00 Cost saved by the gov

      NI per year £965 £16,000 500 482500
      TAX per year £1,200 £16,000 500 600000
      NI per year £1,925 £24,000 400 770000
      TAX per year £2,800 £24,000 400 1120000
      NI per year £2,645 £30,000 100 264500
      TAX per year £4,000 £30,000 100 400000

      3,637,000.00 Profit made by the gov

      8.5 million a year saving/profit for the government from 1 year of 1000 people in work

      I think, keep wondering why that figure seems so high, could someone check my arithmetic

      That shows how a country can use employment to really boost itself

      Let really start to make people think about what WILL be in an independent Scotland and show them the way WE intend to make it happen

      Christ folks I bet every single one of you has an idea about how we can show the rest of scotland a better future

      Why don’t we gets some ideas going, then vote on the best most hard hitting ones

      Barnett scrapped = £800.00 loss for every man woman and child in scotland? etc etc

      we could each take a section to go and research a little bit each

      we could ask/pay someone like another angry voice to help

      get a flyer together and then lets get it out there

    161. Kestral says:

      dam the tabs didn’t stay

      and multiple white space is not allowed 🙂

    162. Paula Rose says:

      Kestral dear – have you had your five-a-day? ie spoken to five folk about the referendum?

    163. Kestral says:

      lol

      oh you wouldn’t believe how many I try to talk too and you wanna guess where I work 🙂

      However I do tend to find you can only deliver one to two facts per convo

      I also deliver leaflets 6 mornings out of my holiday plus Saturdays

      I also have sorted and sent some 30,000 flyers out for wings over Scotland

      Just hacked off I didn’t think of mowing YES in the hillside 🙂

      However I really really don’t want to find we loose by 100 votes

      that would utterly kill me

    164. Bob Sinclair says:

      Paula Rose ‘5 a day’ I’m pinching that.

    165. Paula Rose says:

      Darlings! XXXXX

    166. SNP HOLDS AN ELECTORAL MANDATE.

      SNP HOLDS A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT.

      Why is Salmond allowing BT, Westminster and MSM to fling all the bricks when SNP can negate their flim-flam via weekly Independence debates within the Scottish Parliament illuminating the horn-swogglers who, at the moment have free rein to say what they want?

      When Westminster ignores the rules, Holyrood must react.

      SNP hold an electoral mandate on Independence.

      BamCam and Clegg hold zero mandate on anything.
      Mibbeland has less credibility than Clegg.
      Darling is yesterday`s abject failure.

      First Minister`s “Statements” is another process that can be deployed to Correct MSM,BT and Westminster Lies.

      It also has the added benefit whereby Zero Questions can follow such Statements or Corrections.

    167. ” HYPOTHETICAL” for Rev Stuart Campbell –

      When all the Tory voters voluntarily elected to support a tory mandate in 2010 that included Boundary Change Legislation that bars every tory in Scotland from the house of commons, WHY would tories in Scotland be allowed to exploit PR to maintain a presence at Holyrood?

      After Indy can we rectify that anomaly?

      Tories refuse to evacuate before the IndyRef but I will happily send `em south into homelessness on Sept 19th. when they can experience the hideous housing crisis and housing bubble in the land they love.

    168. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Has anyone yet asked who the players are on the bench in that photie up-top?

      I’m not a big football fan, but I think I can see a very young Paul McStay and Maurice Johnston, and possibly even Davie Cooper?

      No doubt, knowing this place, someone will be able to name them all, and the cops…

    169. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      I stumbled upon this churnalism by goggling “Scottish Independence” and hit the news channel. At a glance you can see the daily scare stories and how they are distribute in the MSM , where google sources much of its “news” links

      Very useful short cut to observe how the same press releases are milked dry, day in day out. No wonder if you are sourcing you information entirely on the MSM, you are going to get a negative view of Scottish self determination

      All very disturbing & depressing

    170. tim jim says:

      The bit that irks me most is “business leaders”. When did we start swallowing that as if it weren’t a term coated in spin? What about hospital leaders? School leaders? Judges could be legal leaders.

      Most people in business are workers trying to earn their salary, maybe even get a promotion, but without working themselves ragged. We are not all pulling towards a golden year for the stockholders thanks, and I think that’s what “business leaders” suggests, that we’re all pointing forward together, rallying behind our leader.

    171. Grendel says:

      The same stories, by different newspapers, all with in depth analysis of a programme that had yet to be aired.
      It’s as if they are all in it together. Surely that canot be right, can it?

    172. Grendel says:

      Or even “cannot”…

    173. Wings Over Reality says:

      @ tim jim

      You’re right.

      Most people do just want to get by which is why a government attempting to intimidate an industry that employs over 10,000 Scots in pursuit of its narrow political ambition is so wrong.

      But still, as long as this thread exists to pretend none of it is really happening then everything is groovy.

    174. Brotyboy says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Richard Gough to right of Stein.



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