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Wings Over Scotland

When circumstances change

Posted on July 23, 2018 by

It’s probably overdue that we start collecting these together. So here’s Sir John Major on the Andrew Marr show yesterday, explaining why a “once in a lifetime” referendum should in fact be held again because its outcome was determined by something that turned out to be untrue.

Which is, of course, totally different to Scotland being told to vote No in 2014 in order to stay in the European Union, because [REASONS TO FOLLOW AT SOME POINT]

And here’s Labour MP Stella Creasy on the same subject on the same day:

And here’s Ruth Davidson all the way back in 2011, explaining that no matter what arguments people make, ultimately it’s the voters who should get to decide at the ballot box which policies a government can enact:

“You don’t get a referendum for free, you have to earn it. So if the Greens and the SNP – and the SSP or any of the other parties who’ve declared an interest in independence – get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about… it’s perfectly simple”

We’ll add more to this page as we get them.

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  1. 23 07 18 16:56

    When circumstances change | speymouth

  2. 24 07 18 11:04

    Except for Voters in Scotland | A Wilderness of Peace

188 to “When circumstances change”

  1. Marie Clark says:

    Except for viewers in Scotland of course.

  2. Dr Jim says:

    That’s for viewers in England, the rules for viewers in Scotland are completely different because of ….things and stuff and… reasons…and nobody wants it anyway …they don’t they don’t they don’t ..we know that

    Now stop it that’s enough of that

  3. Doug_Bryce says:

    To be fair to John Major I find myself in full agreement with every word he has to say on Brexit. Odd to be agreeing with a Tory icon – however Brexit is a complete and utter disaster. UK is sleeping walking towards no deal but England wont accept any other outcome. Robert Pestons interview with John Major makes clear how much trouble the UK is in.

    Which, ironically, makes independence all but certain.

  4. bobajock says:

    I will permalink this with a tattoo on my forhead.

    Should help dissuade the BBC from ignoring it all.

  5. G says:

    Christine Jardine was on the BBC News Channel over the weekend calling for a second Brexit referendum. Sorry, I can’t find a link to it.

  6. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Rev

    Aye. And all the other threats and promises which turned to sand, too.

  7. Merkin Scot says:

    Is ‘once in a lifetime’ longer than ‘once in a generation’?

  8. Johnny says:

    Doug Bryce:

    Major’s arguments do make a lot of sense, although he will of course be keen to protect his legacy (under his stewardship UK accepted the Maastricht Treaty and the EU, of course).

    But the issue is, of course, the contortions these types pull to justify why something they support deserves revisiting while something they don’t should never be discussed again.

  9. Taranaich says:

    Argh, I’ve been working on one of these myself. Here’s a few I came across:

    Democracy is not just about one vote once every five years or one vote once on a particular issue causing all argument on that matter to be considered legitimately shut down. That is not the way democracy works. Democracy is a dynamic concept. People who are on the losing side are not obliged to accept that their view has been lost for ever and they are perfectly entitled to continue to argue for it.
    – John Bercow

    One vote on one day, in one year, by a small majority cannot bind the British people for eternity. The public is entitled to change its mind on an issue as serious as Brexit
    – Tom Brake MP

    The will of the people is not something that is frozen in time and everybody has the right to keep an open mind.
    – Alison McGovern MP

    Both the public and politicians are entitled to argue for what they believe and to change their mind. Indeed, elected members have a special duty to speak up for what they believe to be in the best interests of their constituents and the country.
    – Kate Green MP

    British democracy is dynamic and not the dictatorship of the majority. Voters have the right to change their minds in light of the facts.
    – Geraint Davies MP

  10. Gunga Din says:

    @ Merkin Scot

    Depends on your lifestyle, general health and affluence, I’d imagine.

  11. Dan Huil says:

    British nationalist hypocrisy gets more blatant by the day.

  12. Cuilean says:

    Jo Swinson

    If you don’t like it, you should have the opportunity to reject Brexit.

  13. Capella says:

    A well as the obvious double standard when arguing for a second referendum for England but not for Scotland, there is the small matter of breaking the law during a referendum.

    A set of rules that render the votes invalid already exists.
    Both the Better Together and the Leave campaign broke the rules.

    Neither the Independence Referendum in 2014, nor the EU referendum in 2016 are valid. They should both be declared null and void and a second, internationally supervised vote arranged.

    Of course, that wil never happen. The tory Party is too busy tearing itself apart to stop now.

  14. Valerie says:

    Yes, I’m sure when the time comes for Scottish democracy, there will be a slew of new and old reasons why it can’t happen.

    These people are acting so deranged right now, I think the request for permission will be met with silence, and then two days later troops on the street. Yes stalls dismantled, meetings ruled as treasonous, and padlocks on Holyrood.

    Today’s horrors. We now support the death penalty for the two Brits, known as the Beatles. I have no problem with them meeting their death, but even the mother of the murdered journalist has said, she wants them jailed for life, and not made martyrs.

    I have a real problem that this breaking of our law, is made on the hoof by Javid. UK have made the excuse it’s best USA get on with it, because it’s too complex for UK.

    So our new Foreign Secretary, *unt, gets off to a flying start in Berlin, saying if we don’t get a trade deal, the population will blame Europe for generations.

    NO WE FKING WON’T! You slimy piece of shit!

    Rant over. For 10 mins at least.

  15. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Vslerie @ 3.49pm wrote:

    I have a real problem that this breaking of our law, is made on the hoof by Javid. UK have made the excuse it’s best USA get on with it, because it’s too complex for UK.

    Does this mean the UK is: too wee, too-poor and too-stupid to run its own affairs?

  16. Lochside says:

    “The Ministry of Peace concerns itself with war, the Ministry of Truth with lies, the Ministry of Love with torture and the Ministry of Plenty with starvation. These contradictions are not accidental, nor do they result from from ordinary hypocrisy: they are deliberate exercises in doublethink”
    ? George Orwell, 1984

  17. Clootie says:

    I must have missed something in this logic!
    Perhaps it is because I’m Scottish and assume entitlement to the same justice…silly me!

  18. This, from John Major, 17th June 2014.

    “The former prime minister Sir John Major has said Scotland would trade “real influence” for “possible irrelevance” under independence.

    Sir John said Scottish government plans to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland in the event of a referendum “Yes” vote would undermine the UK and Nato.

    Speaking in Edinburgh, the Conservative also said such a move would not be forgotten by the US.

    SNP MSP Stuart Maxwell said Sir John’s comments were “woefully out of touch”.

    Sir John addressed the Scottish Parliamentary Journalists’ Association in Edinburgh ahead of the vote on Scotland’s future, to be held on 18 September.

    The Scottish government has said an independent Scotland would be able to negotiate EU membership “from within”, in an 18-month timescale, but Sir John said entry, “may take years – and may be probable – but is by no means certain”.

    Sir John said: “And, is it not bizarre for the SNP to campaign to leave one highly successful Union, whilst applying to join another far less successful one that is seen – even by its most ardent advocates – to be in serious need of reform?

    “This is even more difficult to understand when you consider that there have always been Scottish voices around the Cabinet table at Westminster – and at the top of our public services.

    “By contrast, Scotland – as a mere 1% of the population of the EU – will be guaranteed no senior roles at all.

    “The Scottish nationalists are campaigning to replace real influence, living, current, day-to-day influence in the United Kingdom with possible irrelevance in much wider European Union. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Scotland.”

    Sir John added: “When the SNP threaten to expel Trident from Faslane, they not only undermine the UK, but Nato as well.

    “America would not forgive – nor forget – this, and yet the separatists assume membership of Nato is almost a given.”(Ed’s note:- ‘separatists’, are we ?)

    Sir John was also critical of the Scottish government’s choice of referendum date, in the year marking the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn.

    John Major is perfectly entitled to his view, but his comments are woefully out of touch
    Stewart Maxwell MSP, SNP

    He added: “We have fought wars together more often, and more recently, than we have fought against one another.

    “We were at war centuries ago, which is – if I may be brutally frank – why I find it rather sad that the Scottish National Party chose the anniversary of Bannockburn for the vote – presumably to maximise the opportunity for any anti-English sentiment that may exist.”

    Sir John said he was no longer in politics and was speaking for himself, but added that, like anyone from England, had a stake in campaigning to keep the United Kingdom together.

    SNP MSP Stewart Maxwell said: “John Major is perfectly entitled to his view, but his comments are woefully out of touch.

    “He was wrong about a Scottish Parliament in the 1990s, and he is wrong about an independent Scotland now.

    “He also, unwittingly, makes the case for independence himself by pointing out that the Tories rule Scotland with just one MP out of 59.

    “But John Major is just about the last person the ‘No’ campaign will have wanted to see entering the debate here, given his track record in ensuring a Tory wipe-out in Scotland in 1997.”

    Well, we all know what “real influence, living, current, day-to-day influence in the United Kingdom with possible irrelevance in much wider European Union. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Scotland.”
    EVEL (at 07.00 hrs on the morning of 19th September 2014 outsde No. 10), Brexit, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg President Trump who hates our FM’s guts apparently, and of course the threat of the spread of the Dreaded Lurgy throughout these lands.
    Major argues the the ‘British people’ were lied to during the Brexit Campaign and calls for a second Referendum.

    Sauce for the goose John Boy.
    You lied and threatened with the best of them in 2014.
    On a visit to Derry with that other Old Warhorse and liar Tony Blair two weeks before the EU Referendum, Major actually observed that England could not deny Scotland a second Independence Referendum ‘by force’, if the Scottish people demanded it.
    We elected a Government Up Here to hold a second plebiscite if there were a material change in circs, citing England withdrawing from the EU and Scotland opting to Remain (all 32 LA’s voted Remain) as one such ‘material change’.
    If England deny us this Claim of Right, it will be ‘by force’.
    I’m looking out my pike staff.

  19. Dr Jim says:


    Have no worries, there won’t be troops on the streets of Scotland
    The UK Government already know that any aggressive gestures towards democracy in Scotland will be met with condemnation and possible sanctions from all civilised countries

    Not only that but there are many people in Scotland who would not allow that to happen, this is 2018 you don’t need pipe bombs and guns to take down a country anymore when you can halt an airport or trains or any digital infrastructure with a laptop and that would be their return for any military sillyness

    They would really be silly billys if they tried it

  20. Merkin Scot says:

    We now support the death penalty for the two Brits, known as the Beatles.

    And Assange as well?

  21. galamcennalath says:

    Some democratic decisions are made without the electorate having the full facts, or having been deceived. Really begs the question, was it really democratic? Democracy requires an informed and politically engaged population.

    Scotland is getting there. England has a ways to go.

    Yes, 20 years after independence, Scotland’s electorate can freely choose to rejoin England in another glorious Union. Just like all the other independent nations who later voted to return to London rule …. like …. dah?

    Some democratic decisions really never get reversed. When we are clear we want to go, we will have gone for good.

  22. yesindyref2 says:

    For the sake of the UK’s future, Major is right, there should be another EU Ref, and it should be Remain, even if that does delay Indy Ref 2. A no-deal Brexit will be a disaster, and even a transitional period of less than 2 years is unlikely to be enough time to avoid severe disruption for a few years.

    Scotland needs not just to get out of the UK, but secure a transitional deal of our own with the EU, while looking also at EFTA / EEA options. Ireland is already taking steps, the Irish don’t hang about, to cater for a no-deal Brexit, and are likely to avoid the worst of it as they are already exporting more and more to the EU, and worldwide.

    Scotland can do the same, over the 46 years I’ve supported Independence, I’ve never ceased to be amazed and impressed at the adaptability of both the Scottish people and the businesses here. Even Thatcher took just a handful of years before the business scene had adapted completely – and that’s without devolution. Silicon has near gone, well, it’s life sciences, renewables, aerospace.

    It’s the advantage, a huge advantage, massive, enormous, of a small country. It has vigour and need, both drivers of success. And people come from all over to share in it, like Ireland where English as well as Scots moved over to set up business, we get people from all over the world as well moving in to an environment they can succeed in – including the English who have different ideas which are often good, but also help to shake the chestnut tree.

    Why people don’t have confidence in Scotland to adapt in months not years, is totally beyond me. With the advantage we’ll have a Government that makes all the decisions according to Scotland’s 5.31 million population need, not the UK’s 65 million one.

  23. Lochside says:

    Dr. Jim… ‘no worries, there won’t be troops on the streets of Scotland
    The UK Government already know that any aggressive gestures towards democracy in Scotland will be met with condemnation and possible sanctions from all civilised countries’

    Dream on Doc…..see Catalonia…..see Ireland 1916-1998…see Glasgow 1918….we are facing the possibility of a ‘National Government’ and all the draconian measures that threatens.

  24. Valerie says:

    @ Dr Jim

    I’m afraid I agree with Lochside. My real point in raising the death penalty issue, is really that the UK is blatantly now, ignoring law, electoral law, constitutional arrangements, and I’m listening, yet again, to an Urgent Question, on the pairing tradition, raised by Carmichael.

    The Tories are braying, repeating that it’s a good system, and generally laughing at all Opposition comments. Oh, now Mogg is calling it “confected anger”.

    We are beyond what passes for normal behaviour, even with the Tories.

    Watched May doing one of those Q & A session inside a Geordie warehouse. The most well behaved, quietly spoken crowd you’ve seen. They didn’t even sound like Geordies, asking their low ball questions. The men had firmly folded arms, they looked as if they’d been warned.

    May breezed through it, lying through her teeth, never giving out anything solid, on the alleged support to the area. A masterclass in PR.

  25. Waltet Hamilton says:

    Make no mistake, May intends to close down Scotland and end the rule of those upstart SNP, this will be a fight to the death it will be either the Union or Scotland, Scotland is too precious for the GDP of England to ever be lost. We have been frozen out of the Westminster conversation, frozen out of any meaningful conversation on the mainstream media, do you really believe all this is just coincidental. They are already talking openly about a no deal Brexit, as soon as their Brexit plan is rejected by the EU in the autumn we must go for independence, (with close union with Europe).

  26. Ken500 says:

    Blair should be put in jail from killing and maiming millions of people. Killing even more will just bring more death and terrorism. Blair and Bush was warned. Millions marched against the Iraqi war. To be ignored.

  27. Abulhaq says:

    When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
    The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
    The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

  28. ronnie anderson says:

    Would the Right Dishonourable Bastard the Chief Whip of the Tory party attend at the dispatch box to answer the questions Waffle waffle waffle is the order of the day in the Mother of all F*ckup parliaments .

  29. Dr Jim says:

    @Lochside & Valerie

    I can assure you emphatically there will be no troops and they know it

  30. yesindyref2 says:

    Look at the anti-Irish comments on this article “Pikies”, “spuds”.

    It’s a real problem for the UK though after a no-deal Brexit, if Ireland cuts up rough as they’re completely entitled to. Currently Ireland quietly allows overflight for the likes of Russian Bear interception by Typhoons. If that stops it compromises the UK’s security more than Ireland’s. Yet another benefit of Brexit.

  31. mike cassidy says:


    And not for those of a delicate nature

    But here’s a rare sighting of a newspaper correcting on its front page a story it got wrong.

    Enjoy your tea!

  32. ronnie anderson says:

    Strengthening the Union debate just started.

  33. Valerie says:

    Dr Jim, I will happily bow to your wisdom on the issue.

    Thats the “Strengthening the Union” debate started.

    Approx 15 on govt benches. About 5 SNP, which is good. Roughly 20 others on Opposition benches. Rev was urging Pete Wishart the group should not attend.

    What is point of SNP attending, we know we will be talked down, represented there, or not.

  34. Thepnr says:

    Cheers ronnie, think I might tune in. Just for a laugh, I’ve had a few today but always welcome a good chuckle.

  35. Robert Louis says:

    As others have pointed out, *except for viewers in Scotland.

    It is truly remarkable, the way in which London based politicos and journalists quite happily discuss more referenda for pretty much anything, especially brexit. But, mention Scottish independence, and we are told, ‘indy ref was once in a lifetime, it can’t be held again, etc.. etc..’

    The hypocrisy is breathtaking, but then again let’s not forget, Tory brexiteers openly talk of how they need brexit so their parliament can make ALL decisions, without a separate ‘foreign’ parliament in another country making decision for them – ‘taking back control they scream, taking back sovereignty, getting their INDEPENDENCE from Europe’. Yet, oddly such arguments for Scotland ‘taking back control, or taking back sovereignty from English colonial control, are apparently just ridiculous and divisive and wholly unworkable.

    On rule for London, and another different rule for Scotland.


    Meanwhile, Greg Moodie is in fine form in his ‘The National’ strip, where assorted yoons try to advertise Scotland, without it sounding ‘Scottish’ – following on from the Tory hubris of last week. I do hope Mundell and his loony yoon friends read it.

  36. velofello says:

    Reference the John Major clip on the Marr show above., Marr failed as a journalist by not asking if Major’s views included the 2014 IndyRef lies.

    The least risk option for Scotland does appear to vote and declare independence whilst we are still in the EU, and EU citizens. That strategy reduces the UK’s scope for spiteful action against Scotland, and yes, i acknowledge, the EU didn’t do much to protect Catalonia.

    Noting Raab’s silly “threat” not to pay the 39 billion euro obligation for future agreed EU expenditure.Do the maths – 39 billion divided amongst 27 countries, and arguably the larger countries would shoulder a greater %age of the future expenditure. Meantime the UK has the 39billion euro invoice on her desk now, not for future expenditure.

    Scotland really really needs to exit the UK. Be it by referendum, or a Westminster walkout and declarations independence, or whatever.

  37. yesindyref2 says:

    I agree with Rev, the SNP could have just had 1 MP with a one-liner “The SNP does not support strengthening the Union, quite the reverse” and then walking out.

  38. stewartb says:

    I noticed on Rev Stu’s twitter thread that Gerry Hassan has asserted that the Growth Commission report does not address Brexit. Having read the said report that didn’t seem quite right. Had I imagined stuff?

    So for reassurance of my sanity, I’ve just used ‘Brexit” as a search term applied to a pdf version of the Commission’s report. The term appears on 46 pages of the report, quite often multiple times (up to seven) times per page. There is even a section entitled ‘Brexit – Two futures’!

    These academics – what are they like?

  39. ronnie anderson says:

    Thepnr Lesley Laird ( shadow sec for Scotland ) extolling labours vision for Scotland , that’ll be that cloudy shade of opaque, nae references tae Procol Harlem that wiz ah whiter shade of pale lol.

  40. Ken500 says:

    Sajid Javid, the failed banker, is not a Muslim and claims to be non religious. His household (wife) is Christian. Javid citing his appointment. would not support an investigation into Islamophobism in the Tory Party. A supporter of illegal wars. He has continued support for arms sales to Saudi Arabia. The most absolute despot monarchy in the world. He supports Israel. Brexit on the way down.

  41. vlad (not that one) says:

    As a yesser,(lapsed erstwhile Labour voter) I have now decided that I am absolutely, thoroughly, terminally, frustrated and fed up with May, Jacob, Fluffy, red Tories and the whole b***dy lot up here and down there. Overcoming my lifelong abhorrence of being a member of any political party, yesterday I applied for SNP membership.

    So, from now on I suppose I am disqualified from being a dispassionate observer, though my firm natural inclination has always been to do just that.

    The morons in charge have driven me to it.

  42. Thepnr says:

    Ian Murray in Westminster right now quoting from K***n H***e “report”.

    Would make you want to boak.

  43. Dr Jim says:

    Tommy Shepherd makes an excellent speech and gives a history lesson into the bargain but basically points out pretty clearly that Labour are passionate about what they feel is their ownership of Scotland and the Tories really couldn’t give a monkeys about Scotland or its people and that maybe Scottish people would just like to decide what they want in an ever changing world but being tied to the UK doesn’t afford them that luxury

    The opposition said Aye but, Aye but 2014

    The monkeys are in Westminster folks and we don’t need this shit anymore, let’s get on and improve on the last few years the SNP have been building and be a country like everybody else

    If the Union is so great where are all the countries who have already left it behind, are they on the phone begging to return to the good old United Kingdom, I don’t think so

  44. jfngw says:

    Unionist economics, every year just double the black hole total that you claim Scotland would have. Next year it will presumably be £120bn.

  45. yesindyref2 says:

    Interesting. I see the anti-Irish comments on that UKDJ article have been deleted, as was my comment there pointing them out. Good for George Allison. They, and anti-Scottish comments, have no place on a serious defence blog.

  46. Thepnr says:

    Fluffy is undoubtedly an idiot is he believes No Deal is what Scotland wants.

    No deal Brexit preferable to breaking up union, says David Mundell

    “We know the integrity of the UK is very very important and important to the people here in Scotland so I can’t accept an arrangement that threatens the integrity of the United Kingdom.”

    Apologies for the direct link but seems to be down.

  47. One_Scot says:

    Just saw some Tory wanker on the parliament channel in the House of Commons call the Scottish National Party a cult.

    FFS. How much longer do we have to suffer these pricks.

  48. Fireproofjim says:

    The sad thing Is that so few people in Scotland are as clued up about what is going on with Brexit as the Wings family and if they read anything it is probably the front page of the Express or Mail.
    Politics is boring, more boring perhaps than marching in a shiny orange uniform banging a drum.
    As usual George Orwell had it right.
    “Home and children, petty quarrels with neighbours, films, (TV?) football, beer and gambling filled the horizon of their minds. They were not difficult to control.”

  49. Valerie says:

    Doing my bit tweeting through this farce of a debate.

    Hugh Gaffney on his feet now, barely, due to fact, he appears to be puffed. He’s shouting like the drunken uncle at a wedding.

    Tommy Sheppard delivered a cracking speech, no notes.

    Pete Wishart really put Ross Thomson in his place about his behaviour, and folk were watching.

  50. Still Positive says:

    The clown Hugh Gaffney arguing for the union. His constituency is part of N.Lanarkshire Council which voted ‘Yes’ in 2014.

    Irony? Self-awareness? Ha Ha!

  51. jfngw says:

    Mundell would rather see the Scottish economy trashed with a no deal Brexit rather than it being independent. If you want an example of a British Nationalist and the devastation they would inflict on Scotland just to deny independence then Mundell is a perfect example,

  52. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s an interestin one:

    OK, I think >20,000 retweets counts as enough interest to petition the @BBCNews to introduce a rule to ensure Think Tanks disclose their main funders before their spokespeople are given airtime to influence public policy

  53. Thepnr says:


    Just what exactly is a “Think Tank” anyway? As far as i can amke out they are no more than lobbying organisations set up with plenty money from very rich people who want to remain very rich.

    They want to tell you and I how we should think. It’s as simple as that, they are not legitimate and should be starved of oxygen and given no presence on the BBC or anywhere else for that matter.

    Charities are different they are regulated but how often do you see a representative from Oxfam, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth or Amnesty International on Question Time?

    No chance whatsoever, the UK media and government are corrupt from top to bottom. Other voices should be heard and giving equal hearing to the likes of the IFS or Taxpayers f*cking Alliance.

    I just retweeted that tweet, the good Doctor is absolutely right and we should know who funds these so called “Think Tanks”. The ones I mentioned are all funded solely by public donations.

  54. Tam the Bam. says:

    Just realised wee Doogie Ross is a dead-ringer for Bluebottle from The Seagoons (Google it).

  55. schrodingers cat says:

    a no deal brexit is the unionists worst nightmare,

    i think corbyn will have no choice but to back it in a ge

    a melt down in scotland is assured

  56. galamcennalath says:

    Thepnr says:

    Mundell … the integrity of the UK is very very important and important to the people here in Scotland

    If that were true, and Mundell believed it, then he should be supporting a Section 30 for Nicola so an IndyRef2 can be held. This would settle whether their Union is more important here than avoiding a crash and burn Brexit!

    Truth is, and he knows it, his beloved Union is unlikely to survive IndyRef2 especially against the background of a no deal Brexit!

    They hate democracy, they hate Scotland.

  57. Thepnr says:


    Completely agree. Mundell is no friend of democracy nor Scotland.

  58. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes. it’s worth backing, if it stops this invalid use of “impartial” or “independent” about thinktanks. Mostly they’re far from it.

    I’ve decided I hope Average’s (bogroll) “paper” gets a lot of exposure in the MSM. Why? Because it might make genuine economists get up and talk, and that would be a real result of the GCR’s paper for debate. I think I got the petition retweet from Bell’s twitter, who also retweets Antonelli and Kirsty Hughes.

    What it is is, I think, in Indy Ref 1 the macroeconomists in Scotland were UK-centric, basically because Scotland has few or none really of the macroeconomic levers. So they were unable really to think outside the UK and hence Independence for Scotland without those macroeconomic levers was practically unthinkable – even though Independence would give us those levers. But Brexit is making them think again.

    GCR is sterlingisation and neoliberal economics. MMT for instance is our own currency and potentially very different economics. I think top economists are somewhere in-between, perhaps more by habit and culture than belief at times, as the neoliberal one is the only one they have available to analyse from data, such as the OBR.

    @ScottieDog – help me!

  59. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Vlad @ 6.15

    Welcome aboard every new member sends a powerful message.

    Actions speak louder than words.

    Anent Hugh Gaffney, he’s actually a nice wee guy, thick as shit but basically a nice guy.

    Shockarooney a thick Labour poltician

  60. Luigi says:

    Thepnr says:
    23 July, 2018 at 7:14 pm
    Fluffy is undoubtedly an idiot is he believes No Deal is what Scotland wants.

    I think this concerns the NI problem – satisfy the EU on this, and they really do break up the UK.

    And why is British Nationalist Mundel still referring to the “union”? There is no union, as has become painfully evident during the past month.

    Maybe Mr Mundel loves his precious, pretend “union” because he doesn’t want to be outed as a British nationalist. 🙂

    Cut the pretence, Fluffy. Yer a 24 carat British nationalist. 🙂

  61. Brian McHugh says:

    I have only one word… Hypocrites!

  62. Thepnr says:

    Just thinking aloud. If say I was to write a 23,300 word report on the deficiencies of the governments Chequers White Paper, how much media coverage might it get?

    I doubt I would even get on Tokyo Kaye’s phone in.

  63. Strengthening The Union Debate in UK Parliament,

    hardly an English MP to be seen,

    that is what they care about the Union,

    Scot Tory/Labour MPs not seeing the significance of no one from England giving a tuppenny f@ck for the Union,

    Scot Tory/Labour MPs like house slaves,protecting the master when the master couldn`t care one way or other,

    sad little britnat uncle toms the lot of them.

  64. schrodingers cat says:

    Luigi says:
    Fluffy is undoubtedly an idiot is he believes No Deal is what Scotland wants.
    I dont think he does, but he and most of the scottish tories, especially those in holyrood are on the left wing of the tory party.
    the right wing is challenging for leadership in london, and they will win
    no one will challenge the scots tories, but the price of their unionisim will be to toe the line, today was for the benefit of the london brexiteers, to see just who would toe the line. mundell, tick etal.
    no deal is better than indy.

    but bear in mind, when the ge comes, they will have no choice but sell this to their electorate.
    ruth with a 75% remainer electorate……. no wonder she is hiding in a bunker

  65. Highland Wifie says:

    Have just been watching Stephen Kerr talking the most fantastical nonsense in the Strengthening the Union debate which was bad enough, but had to stop watching in the middle of Paul Sweeney’s contribution. What a despicable little toad he is with his pick and mix “facts” about the economics of “separation”.
    I don’t know how SNP members of Parliament or anyone with an interest in democracy can sit through this disingenuous blather.

  66. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 23 July, 2018 at 6:56 pm:

    ” … Ian Murray in Westminster right now quoting from K***n H***e “report”.
    Would make you want to boak.”

    Well no, actually it makes me want to laugh.

    Mind you I’ve always found clowns funny but not in the conventional way. More in an ironic, “Poor wee, small minded idiot”, sort of way. If ever there was a small minded idiot – Murray fits the bill.

  67. Petra says:

    @ Thepnr says at 7:14 pm …. ”Fluffy is undoubtedly an idiot is he believes No Deal is what Scotland wants. No deal Brexit preferable to breaking up union, says David Mundell.”

    “We know the integrity of the UK is very very important and important to the people here in Scotland so I can’t accept an arrangement that threatens the integrity of the United Kingdom.”

    Apologies for the direct link but seems to be down.

    Fluffy and the late Jimmy Hood have something in common then!

    The lunatics have taken over the asylum, right enough.

    C’mon folks if you’re visiting this site and are undecided think again and vote YES for Independence to get us out of this hell-hole.

  68. Rock says:

    Do the “sovereign” Scots posting here have a Plan B when Nicola declares in three months’ time that there will not be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed (crashed)?

  69. Phronesis says:

    Barnier’s infographic explaining the meaning of a hard Brexit. A presentation given 7 months ago but just as relevant now. It’s a long bumpy ride down the Brexit stairway to hell. Britannia will be unchained, broken up, in bits- exactly what Britannia wants apparently. Scotland,the country, isn’t keen to throw itself in the same direction.

  70. Robert Peffers says:

    Luigi says:
    23 July, 2018 at 8:30 pm

    … And why is British Nationalist Mundel still referring to the “union”? There is no union, as has become painfully evident during the past month.”

    You got that right Luigi. Mundell is the person who announced to the World:-

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.”, and here he is on a national TV Channel admitting that he did:-

    Anyone who has read the actual Treaty of Union or even either of the two individual and still then independent kingdom’s Acts of Union will be unable to find where the union is other than an agreement between two only equally sovereign kingdom s to unite under one parliament as they already had a common monarchy but whereas the monarch in the English kingdom is legally sovereign the monarch under the still independent Scots law is the protector of the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty.

    There is absolutely no evidence of any kind that Mundell’s or the Westminster government’s claims are other than fabrications and wishful thinking.

  71. Thepnr says:


    Yes I remember that Jimmy Hood clip well from first time around, well worth a rerun. I thought the the lunatics were in charge 4 years ago now I know for sure that they are.

    Here’s a wee tune for you, well not the tune but the lyrics that I played on wings in August 2014. I still feel the same.

  72. Dr Jim says:

    British Nationalists want our money, they also want our land and sea but most of all they demand our loyalty and they’d kill us to get it if they could and that’s dedication

    I also have the same dedication but to the complete opposite of what they demand and I don’t have to kill anyone to get it

    I have a laptop

  73. Thepnr says:


    I think that the Chequers white paper points towards what the UK wants and it looks like the Swiss model. They have a way to go yet in their red lines before that can be achieved, if ever.

  74. galamcennalath says:

    Excellent diagram showing TMay’s Ireland dilemma….

    …. a reminder that there are no other options.

  75. Famous15 says:

    K***n H***e made me ponder his thinking long and hard and after much thought which strained my intellect to the limit I finally concluded that he is a deluded nonentity with psychotic self loathing which he tries to infect the ordinary hard working Scottish peoples with. Sorry about the grammar but I was educated before the SNP formed the government.

    Independence is the norm for all self respecting countries. We are not perfect but are we self respecting eh K***n?

  76. ronnie anderson says:

    After sitting viewing that debate since 3pm i hope tomorrows Supreme court debate is less mind numbing

  77. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 23 July, 2018 at 10:02 pm:

    ” … I think that the Chequers white paper points towards what the UK wants and it looks like the Swiss model. They have a way to go yet in their red lines before that can be achieved, if ever.”

    It cannot, and will not ever be achieved, Thepnr.

    There are these several models you mention but no state with such a model is in the same category as the United Kingdom.

    None of them were ever full member states of the EU and thus their citizens are not EU citizens. The entire citizenship of the United Kingdom are both United Kingdom citizens and EU citizens and both the United Kingdom and the EU have legal responsibility to protect their citizens.

    However, while the EU citizen is ultimately legally sovereign and elects their parliament’s members as their delegates and their MEP as their representative those in the Kingdom of England, (three countries), are legally subjects of the legally sovereign monarch, even although they get the choice of their MP that MP is the delegate of the legally sovereign Monarch.

    Trouble is, for Scotland, Westminster wrongly holds that it has sovereignty over Scots and Scotland.

    So what it boils down to is that no other member state in the EU has a citizenry that isn’t legally sovereign and no state with a different deal than full EU membership has citizens who are also EU citizens.

    If the EU were to give the UK a special deal they would open the door to every member state to demand a deal that suited their citizens. The EU cannot get involved in every EU state with a different deal so will maintain the EU four freedoms at any cost.

  78. Thepnr says:

    Interesting debate from Ireland live right now. No idea how much longer it will be on but interesting all the same.

  79. Thepnr says:

    The webcast has finished now.

  80. Danny says:

    The National front page:

    Mundell is one horrible wee crawlin Unionist bastard.

    We won’t forget this Mundell.

  81. Breeks says:


    Oh my! Did somebody ask Trump to stand up and sing God Save the Queen?

  82. Big Jock says:

    Mundell is like one of those caniving characters in Rob Roy. You find it hard to believe a Scotsman would betray his kinsmen so blatantly and absurdly. But there we have it. Mundell is an absurdity. A pipsqueek for mother Theresa.

  83. ScottieDog says:

    I haven’t waded into the twitter fracca simply because I don’t believe in the GC paper. It’s the poorest option for an independent Scotland. It doesn’t give the govt countercyclical muscle to act in a downturn. It’s the job of the sovereign govt to be able to issue more of the currency to react to the business cycle and sterlingsisation makes that very difficult unless you can run continuous trade surpluses (near impossible during a recession)

    I would ask a Harold Shipman for a medical appointment before I would listen to an RBS economist’s plan for how to run the economy of a country. The GC paper was a godsend for the neoliberal economists like MacDonald etc (don’t let your child study economics at Glasgow ffs) and the other economists that KH follows.

    If the GC is just one option why aren’t the SNP putting forward an alternative option?
    I honestly believe the ship has sailed and they have nailed their colours to the mast (sterlingisaton). The Barclays news actually leaves me cold – increasing financial jobs is not something we need – finance is a service not the economy itself – but I wonder if they sniff the plans of the GC and look for their continued dominance across the border.

    If it all comes across as negative I’m sorry, but everyone is taking potshots at KH when we should be setting out a workable plan that could transform Scotland – one where we are TRULY sovereign with our own currency.

    The sad thing is that Andrew Wilson views the economy through the same neoliberal lens that Hague does – in other words, he sees the economy as household (quite clear in his copying of the stability growth pact) – a dangerous fallacy which has cost millions of jobs around Europe and literally destroyed young lives – that makes me very very angry.

    I expect I’ll annoy folk by saying this but the growth commission report shouldn’t be flushed down the toilet, but perhaps as mulch for the garden – to soften the impact on the environment.

    Mitchell and Murphy’s analysis is pretty much correct and the best approach for a prosperous Scotland. That’s all I care about.

  84. Valerie says:

    Where are ye, yesindyref2????


    I said this thing was giving me the heebie jeebies, felt off.

    That’s it now officially the status of bribe, because we can’t have it if we are independent. The Union debate mentioned Americans will not launch from there, unless it’s uk.

    Story now being carried, on Revs Twitter.

  85. Danny says:

    ScottieDog 11.04pm

    I totally agree with you on the Growth Commission.

    We waited years for it to be published and they gave us a huge damp squib.

    One of the worst own goals the SNP have scored.

    I don’t even care if they put a couple of wee white lies into the next Financial Report. But for Godsake give us something that is upbeat and we can taken to the opposition with confidence.

  86. Robert Peffers says:

    @ScottieDog says: 23 July, 2018 at 11:04 pm:

    ” … I haven’t waded into the twitter fracca simply because I don’t believe in the GC paper.”

    Which, of course is one view and you are every bit as entitled to it as anyone else. However, like everyone else’s view one person’s opinion is just one person’s opinion. Unless, of course you happen to be the owner of a Think Tank. Then it apparently, as far as the SMSM is concerned, becomes the official views of an expert – even if the actual expertise is in pet-food sales.

  87. Mary miles says:

    Hi from Tassie:

    Mundell truly is a toad and a ("Tractor" - Ed)! The tidal wave of INDEPENDENCE is rising fast and all the Britnats are afraid. My thoughts are with you all in your fight for INDEPENDENCE – with you every step of the way!!

    For those who believe in it – Karma seems to be taking its toll after 300 years of union – from Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Rees Mogg seems to stand out as the typical attitude of years of English attitude towards its neighbours. To those decent English I’m sure it is also time for them to rebel against the establishment who keeps them ignorent and poor. There must be a better future for all decent people!

    With Scottish INDENDENCE fight forever. Love to all Wingers for Independence.

  88. Danny says:

    You do get the feeling that the more we hear about Brexit the more the support for Independence grows.

    I don’t think it will be long before we see Polls showing support for Indy above 50% on a regular basis.

    I have always said that when the final Brexit deal is known, support for Independence could go as high as 70%.

    And am no drunk,,LOL

  89. yesindyref2 says:

    Not surprising, most of us commenters said on the initial articles they’d try using that, didn’t expect it to be this soon! It’s going to annoy those in the aerospace industry, worth a lot of money, and for the sakes of £2.5 million which is the UK Gov promised investment, who knows, it could swing a few YES votes as ScotGov can easily take that over. As far as ITAR is concerned, I can’t see that being a problem at all, there are a fair few treaties and conventions Scotland would either inherit or sign up to – such as no arms in space (I forget the name). The satellite industry we have is small rockets and satellites – not exactly capable of sending an ICBM over New York.

  90. Dr Jim says:

    See for the hundred millionth time the Growth Commission report is NOT repeat NOT SNP policy and its highly likely it never will be, it’s a tool and guess what it’s for

    If I said pick a card any card I have nothing up my sleeve
    Where would you be looking?

  91. Hamish100 says:

    When independent invite the Russians to visit Rosyth with some of their fleet. Within minutes the USA and RUK will be begging forgiveness!!

  92. Robert Peffers says:

    @Mary miles says: 23 July, 2018 at 11:48 pm:

    … With Scottish INDENDENCE fight forever. Love to all Wingers for Independence.”

    Nice to hear from the other side of the Globe Mary. For many Wingers independence has been a life long battle. I cannot remember when I wasn’t fighting that fight but I did begin getting actively involved in around 1946/7, and, just after a World War and with a still extant British Empire it wasn’t easy for a wee school boy but here I am, still fighting the good fight.

    Hope I make it to live in a free Scotland but I’m sure there will be Scots still fighting for freedom until the final battle is won.

    We can be a muckle thrawn people when we have to be and we have very long memories.

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    I like the GCR, it gives a reasonable neoliberal future for iScotland in a neoliberal world with mostly neoliberal economists to keep the neoliberals happy arguing over its neoliberal details. I think the MMTers should basically ignore it and just promote the MMT message, and try to get economists like Ashcroft and Bell (and Antonelli) interested and maybe even onside in time. It’s a plan for iScotland, there can be others, and the choice is ours once we have a YES vote. Not having our own currency from the beginning is of course madness, even if it goes in parallel with short-term sterlingisation (5 years or so), with limited currency issue to protect its integrity.

    As Ashcroft said: “There is just no evidence that a country with its own currency and ability to print money will be at risk of default as debt rises.” (6 Dec 2013 article on the page)

  94. Danny says:

    Dr Jim

    We know the Growth Commission was not the SNPs Report,,But it was presented as such and Nicola didn;t try to deny being Party to some of the input.

    It was far too negative.

    Any good points in the report were deep inside it.

    It should have been uplifting and positive.

    This Report was the opposite.

    They need to come up with a Report that has catchy bite sized bullet points for the general public and the media to catch on to.

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    What the media came up with about the GCR was that the financial establishment and their economists – welcome it. The only bad things they could find to say about it were austerity and something else I forget, plus of course the “split” it apparently caused in the Indy movement. But it was/is a credible road-map for iScotland. Now they’re reduced to giving airpsace to a report by a “dogfood salesman”.

    It wasn’t for YESsers, it was for the neolibleral establishment, and plenty of NO voters are a part of that. If that report was actually followed, Scotland will not become an American Depression style dustbowl, that’s one that can’t be used against Indy. Skintland, no more.

    Oh yes, we won’t have any control over interest rates. Who the f gives an eff? The BoE will quite happily be setting them at about our economy needs level, similar to but slightly below London and the South-East – which is where the BoE will be averaging its policies anyway, and where we actually sit – near exactly average (unlike London particualrly, and the South-East which is a bit above us). Until our economy diverges which is very likely to be upwards, that I think suits us fine and dandy.

  96. Still Positive says:

    Always agreed with Canavan in 2014 that Scotland should have its own currency.

  97. yesindyref2 says:

    I’ll give this a dry run cos it’ll take a bit of time to get it right and I might as well type it up on Wings.

    Day 1 of Independence. Scotland is sterlingised, but also has our own currency. It’s the one we have in our pockets, walltes, handbags, stuffed under the bed, it’s – the Scots Pound. There’s £4 billion of it in circulation, backed 100% by the giants and titans, but moved overnight into the vault of the brand shiny new converted old bank (they bought the Counting House) called the Scottish Central Bank (SCB), which also serves fine beer and other drinks plus a tasty food menu. The UK banking regulations are inherited intact and in place.

    iScotland has teething problems and snagging work is carried out. In 3 months or whatever, most of the major ones are fixed, and others covered with duct tape and putty, with plans in place to do the job properly. Meantime since there’s little currency gone outside Scotland, the Scottish Pound is – sound as a pound. The ScotGov now repeals the Banking Act of 1858 replaced by whenever, and in its place has a new Act which allows the new Scottish Banking Regulators (SBR) to control the issue of currency.

    The starting mandatory guideline from the regualtors is – 100% coverage. The ScotGov issues another £1 billion of Scots Pounds covered 100% by Sterling giants and titans – or tenners, who cares, except they don’t bundle up well when creased. Where does the money come from? It’s irrelevant to the handling of the currency itself, maybe bonds, maybe citizens investment, who cares. It’s all about the currency itself, no deflections please.

    Some Scots Pounds now cross our borders, the BoE takes £200 million to be ready for future stabilisation, the ECB does the same, so does the Fed. The other £400 million ends up on the walls of bars all over the world, and on mantelpieces as souvernirs, or in note collectors collections. Nice, that’s £400 million we no longer have to cover 100%. But we still do. I forgot to say, this is the new design, it may have the 3 note issuing banks logos on it, but also the ScotGov seal of approval, plus nice pictures of Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and at random, Peter A Bell. That should keep HIM happy.

    3 months later another £1 billion covered 100% to keep the confidence, but now it can be allowed to drop, and the SCB is into its usual job of buying and selling other currencies, with the SBR keeping a beady eye on it. But the note issuing Banks £4 billion is kept in Sterling, it’s still theirs after all.

    3 months later, £2 billion Scots pounds are issued, but only £1 billion Sterling – or euros – or dollars – or a mix of the lot are bought.

    The Scots Pound isn’t just born, it’s weaned. Next steps – float it. It’s good to have swimming lessons as early as you can!

  98. Dr Jim says:


    The media presented it as the SNP report just as they were supposed to and everybody is talking about it just as they were supposed to but that’s NOT what’s going to be presented on behalf of the SNP when the time comes
    Anything the SNP produces will by its very nature be rubbished by the media and the opposition because that’s their job to do that on behalf of the UK

    When the finished article is presented as policy the media will spend so much time humping out stories of how the SNP has ditched their own policy for this new shiny one they’ll end up making fools of themselves by rubbishing one they’ve not even had a chance to read and still rubbishing the one they really didn’t read in the first place

    The only questions that need answering are what currency and how to pay for it, even though both are pretty stupid questions those are the ones that the opposition found most useful last time against the proposition, with the help of the BBC of course

    This is the same as when the UK brought in decimalisation which was a giant con to devalue the pound but it still kept the same name so folk were happy until they realised their Mars bars and bread were twice the price but it took them ages to work out because the UK government and the media were together in their propaganda story

    Every sensible person knows that money is a figment of imagination and you can call money any name you want as long as it’s yours and you can print virtually as much of the stuff as you want (Prof Richard Murphy Phantom Power films)

    It’s all about the timing of the event and the manner in how you frame it, not the event itself, no documents or experts will decide this because the opposition will always come up with side of a bus experts to rubbish our experts so the proposition of Independence must be one that is recognised as inevitable and nothing can or will stop it and the answer will be YES and the people who want to vote NO and did in the past will have amost already have lost the will to vote at all

    Will Scotland be better, will Scotland be happier, will Scotland be healthier, will the SNP Guv end foodbanks, will the people get to choose other political parties, will Scotland be safe

    I’m sure there are a ton more like that but that’s what’ll win, not will we have more money, that’s easy even if you just say exactly the same but you get more choice on what you spend it on

    Trump won by shouting he was going to make America great again, absolute pish but say it right and spend the dosh on it’s presentation and you win, people like hope and he offered it and they bit his hand off
    Our Referendum should be a lot easier and this time we’ve got dosh, staying in the UK offers *NO HOPE* (deliberately typed that in BIG see how that works)

    Of course I could be wrong but the opposition could be more wrong than me

  99. yesindyref2 says:

    Further to the above, the highest denomination banknote – the £1,000 which is needed because it becomes so popular in the rest of the world – carries the picture of our very own Rev Stu, and a framed and genuinely signed copy ends up in the White House and the Kremlin, amongst others. Downing Street declines his kind invitation to sign a note if they supply enough treats for him and the 85 kittens running riot in his mansion. Nobody knows why, exactly.

  100. K1 says:

    On what fucking planet is a No Deal Brexit better for Scotland than Independence?

    Scotland voted 62% remain and now fucknuts like Mundell, who is supposed to be the Secretary of Stare for Scotland, sagely tells us that the bad EU is the culprit if said No Deal threatens this precious fucking Union? And so even a No Deal is better than cu and sm for NI and we all know that’s code for ‘if NI can have it why can’t Scotland’ and there is no fucking way these bastards will allow that for Scotland and they give not one single fuck about NIreland either.

    So they’d rather completely fuck the entire UK just to prevent Scotland becoming independent, but they don’t see the flaw in that logic, that by doing so of course we’ll choose Independence over a No fucking Deal Brexit!

    He must think we zip up the back, wi buttons for eyes and mince fur brains.

    Fucking sick of this pish over and over again…sooner we’re done wi this the better.

    (rant over)

  101. twathater says:

    @ K1 2.01 pm I’m glad you got that aff your chest , btw you just saved my fingers typing the same thing

  102. yesindyref2 says:

    I just found this good saying:

    An avalanche starts with one pebble. A forest with one seed. And it takes one word to make the whole world stop and listen. All you need is the right one.

    Maybe your rightful condemnation of Mundell is just that pebble.

  103. Mary miles says:

    To: Robert Peffers

    Thank you for your reply Robert. Indeed I have felt the same way about Independence since I was a little girl. The first vote I could make in Scotland before I left for Australia was for the SNP hoping Independence would come some time in the future. That was back in the 60’s and of course I was laughed at the time as the numbers were not there but as they say the dream will never die.

    I wore the tartan here in Australia on the day the first Indyref was held and was so sad when Independence was not voted for and that Scotland had missed the opportunity. I pray for a successful vote next time.

    Unfortunately due to family circumstances I was brought up in England but never really felt that was my home. Both sides of my family go way back in Scotland and the family tree goes right back through the centuries. Most of the family who lived in England for a few years all moved back to Scotland in the 60’s.

    I will wherever I live, be a Scot and Robert I hope all of use who wish an Independent future for Scotland do live to see it.

    Very best wishes to you,

  104. Kangaroo says:

    @ Mary Miles

    Ditto from Jaspers Brush, NSW

    Re: GCR and MMT
    I don’t think anyone noticed as it was done subtly, but we are back on a Gold Standard and have been since 1 Oct 2016.

    The IMF issues SDRs and there are 900SDR to 1oz of Gold. The SDR is the elite’s new Reserve Currency to replace the USD.

  105. ScottieDog says:

    @Robert Peffers
    “Then it apparently, as far as the SMSM is concerned, becomes the official views of an expert – even if the actual expertise is in pet-food sales.”

    Indeed and we know that whatever position we take, it will be rubbished by the ‘experts’ . So might aswell go with the option which gives scotland the best chance of prosperity.

  106. ScottieDog says:

    “As Ashcroft said: “There is just no evidence that a country with its own currency and ability to print money will be at risk of default as debt rises.”

    I would use ‘currency issuer’ rather than phrases like ‘printing money’.

    I would suggest that of YES has a decent stash of cash should commission its own report or at least interviews from progressive economists who are on the fence over Scottish sovereignty. They have no preference either way but an analysis using macroeconomic first principles.

    The first principles are simple..
    The limits to an economy are the resources it can command or lay claim to. This is why England has to pursue an aggressive foreign policy. It’s about energy and resources and scotland is pretty blessed.
    Money (created by fiat since Mr Nixon suspended gold convertibility) is Issued by double entry book keeping (plenty of real world examples we can use). There IS no stash of magical reserves.

    The flat earthers and naysayers have to be challenged about their negativity with questions like “show me an example of that?”. They won’t be able to

    Following the GC plan however, there are plenty of examples of countries who have struggled due to the fact they rely of foreign currency creation.

  107. gerry parker says:

    Real chaos ahead.

  108. Shinty says:

    For those of you who missed it.
    (Tommy Sheppard’s speech yesterday)

  109. Breeks says:

    boris says:
    24 July, 2018 at 2:31 am

    White Helmets tossed out of Syria possibly to be be retrained as firemen in England

    Presumeably that will be a Fire Station in Salisbury so the Parish can benefit from specialist training and hands on experience of faking a chemical weapons attack and blaming the Russians for it.

    From the article…

    “The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) described the move as an “exceptional humanitarian gesture,” adding that it “continues to maintain a non-intervention policy regarding the Syrian conflict.”

    Job references from the IDF too? Em… doesn’t that ring any alarm bells??? Non-intervention? Clearly the IDF has a somewhat twisted sense of humour.

    This “United Kingdom”, and the “Company” it keeps, increasingly turns my stomach.

    Retrained as Firemen??? They’ll be retrained alright, but not as firemen. They’ll be trained up as insurgents and saboteurs, then sent back to Syria to destabilise and overthrow Assad, just like the UK trained and depolyed insurgents into Libya to overthrow Gadaffi.

    Can we please bring this Union to an end before it’s noxious toxicity overcomes us all? Seriously. I’m done. I’ve seen more than enough.

  110. Smallaxe says:

    Scotland’s champion;

    Indycar Gordon Ross;

    BiFab commitment ‘can only be good news’, says Scottish offshore wind expert;

    Brexit Food and Pharmaceuticals Crisis;

  111. Smallaxe says:

    Sajid Javid drops UK’s blanket opposition to death penalty to allow two Isis fighters to be sent to US;

    SQUARING THE BREXIT CIRCLE: How can we avoid returning to borders of the past?;

    Time for TV debates: If May’s still confident in her Brexit plan she should sell it to the public;

    US banks urge UK to cut corporate taxes to stop Brexit exodus;

  112. Smallaxe says:

    UK faces UN probe over ‘extreme’ poverty and human rights;


    The voyage of the damned;

    Mundell backs Brexit no deal chaos amid SNP’s call for independence;

  113. Smallaxe says:

    What should we expect from the Supreme Court Brexit showdown?;

    Supreme Court showdown over Holyrood’s Brexit bill;

    Germany’s bloody secret: Politicians & arms producers cosy up, sell weapons to anyone (VIDEO);

    Oil to be removed from stranded ship MV Priscilla;

  114. Smallaxe says:

    More demands for Scottish Tories to come clean over ‘dark money’ allegations;

    Here’s the outrageous question the Home Office is now asking asylum seekers facing deportation;

    White Helmets must be tracked down & prosecuted for ‘war crimes’ – Syria’s Grand Mufti;

    Juncker won’t bring trade offer to Trump talks – EU Commission;

  115. Smallaxe says:

    EU Citizens: We are still not reassured.;

    End ‘botched’ Brexit, Labour’s Corbyn calls on Britain to back his vision;

    Ministers selling out UK exporters, Corbyn to say;

    Have a great day, Wingers.

  116. Breeks says:

    Smallaxe says:
    24 July, 2018 at 7:14 am
    Scotland’s champion;

    Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

    That they will try to cheat us seems inevitable, but I have such curiosity about how. But somewhere in the mix and mire, there is also the gleaming gem there if we can only find it, that perhaps, Scotland and its sovereignty will secure justice and acknowledgment.

  117. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Breeks, some more links,

    GCHQ spy agency given illegal access to citizens’ data;

    Theresa May refuses to back Javid’s decision to allow death penalty for British jihadis;

    British women could see their human rights rolled back under Brexit, the equalities watchdog has warned.;

    Take fright on Brexit: even the civil service head is telling us to panic;

  118. Ken500 says:

    Why do we always have to talk about Kevin. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Can’t even run a dog food company going bust. Just a load of tripe. Puke.

    Sanctioning and starving people. Just plain wrong. Westminster unionist are complete and utter dangerous fools. Not competent in the wider world. Stuck in their own bubble. They are detached from the real world. Arrogant conceited, cruel and nasty. Offensive beyond belief. Causing war and hardship in Britain and around the world. The sooner Scotland is Independent the better. They are misusing resources in Scotland. Mismanaging and damaging the economy in every way.

    Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion has cost Scotland dear. The mismanagement of the Oil & Gas sector, fishing and farming. It has cost Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. Hinkley Point, HS2 and Trident a total waste of money. CCS projects cut. Investment in rail in the North cut. Tidal projects cut. £Billions being invested in London S/E. Now Brexit another attempt to ruin the Scottish economy by Tories and their cronies for whom Scotland did not vote.

    Illegal electoral fraud and gerrymandering on a massive scale in the UK. Not dealt with in any way. Extraordinary. Ministers making policies up to suit their own agenda. Chaos.

  119. @Smallaxe,

    The Russian Gov not fans of the `Notorious White Helmets`,

    Russian Embassy in NL ?? ??

    Jul 22

    `Definitely there will be less chances of new so-called Chemical Warfare attacks in Syria after forced evacuation by the collective West of the notorious White Helmets.`

  120. Smallaxe says:

    Scot Finlayson,

    Good morning, Scot.

    I remember when the guys in the white hats were the good guys, those days are gone.
    More links;

    Proposal to give MPs anonymity over scandals looks like attempt ‘to cover up misdoings’ says standards committee chairman;

    Just another Jock;

    So there we have it, the spaceport idea (not a promise) is just another bribe to stay in the United Kingdom, just like shipbuilding contracts from the MoD – which worked out swimmingly;

  121. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    from a contribution on Facebook
    The Truth about the White Helmets

    “I note with interest the feverish discussion about how the White Helmets are going to be “exfiltrated” out of Syria and relocated in the West. Why? If they were the humanitarian group they purported to be, ministering to all Syrian civilians, why are they in fear of their lives?

    The truth is infinitely more unpalatable. They worked exclusively in terrorist-held areas and were in fact part of the invasion of Syria. They were not volunteers, but paid collaborators and fighters working for Britain and America. Ordinary Syrian civilians had never even heard of them, whilst they were filming their appalling propaganda videos for western consumption. In their off-air time they were involved with the murderous head-chopping of Daesh and the al-Nusra Front, now called Jaish al-Islam (the army of Islam), all funded by the western allies.

    Britain is not known for its care and compassion towards indigenous collaborators in any conflict. They are invariably left to suffer a horrible fate meted out by their own governments. Remember the Afghan interpreters who were refused asylum in Britain, and left to be picked off mercilessly by the Taliban?

    So what’s all the fuss about rescuing the White Helmets? It’s because they were the recipients of arms and chemical weapons, sometimes by road through Turkey, sometimes by air- drop directly to strategic positions, and always under the guise of aid/medical supplies from the concerned western alliance. When the Syrian government eventually liberated Douma and al-Ghouta (where no chemical attack ever took place) they found an underground city full of Syrian hostages, 5000 of them, and an arsenal of conventional and chemical weapons with their countries of origin stamped on them – USA, UK, Israel and Germany. Daesh agreed to release the hostages, to much rejoicing from distraught relatives, and they did release 100, then massacred the rest.

    The White Helmets know too much. If they are not extirpated, oh sorry I meant exfiltrated, then the Syrian government will pick them up, interrogate them, and a mound of beans will be spilled. It’s all unravelling, the lies we’ve been told for years.

    If the exfiltration through Israel and Jordan actually is successful, be prepared to welcome some murderers to a street near you.

    And if you have doubts about my in-depth understanding of this situation, check with Peter Ford, the ex-ambassador to Syria.”

  122. Robert Peffers says:

    @ScottieDog says: 24 July, 2018 at 5:16 am:

    ” …. I would suggest that of YES has a decent stash of cash should commission its own report or at least interviews from progressive economists who are on the fence over Scottish sovereignty.”

    Unfortunately, few, if any, are on the fence over Scottish sovereignty and after having been preaching that particular mantra since this octogenarian was a schoolboy I am in no doubt that the average Scot either has never given sovereignty any thought in their entire lifetime or would tell you, if asked that, “The Sovereign”, was Queen Elizabeth II.

    Trouble is that “The Queen of England is legally the Queen of, The Kingdom of England”, and that includes the countries of England, Wales & N.I, but not Scotland where she is legally the Queen of Scots and thus is not legally sovereign under the independent law of Scotland.

    This is further complicated and confused because the independent laws of, The Kingdom of England deposing their rightful monarchy in 1688 and inviting a minor royal well down the list of those in line for the throne to become their monarch. The royal lady declined because she did not want her husband to become her consort. The English rebel parliamentarians then offered the three crowns of The Kingdom of England to the minor royals as joint monarchs and made Billy & Mary the joint monarchs of The Kingdom of England. but conveniently, (for England), they applied their decisions to the still independent Kingdom/country of Scotland where English law did not apply and also, to this day, called the Scots who opposed them, “The Jacobite Rebellion”. You cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own and Scotland’s parliament had not deposed their rightful monarchy.

    Now you may claim, as many do, that, “Oh! That’s just ancient history”, as if because it is old it doesn’t apply but has not the Westminster parliament cited even more ancient historic events that are using English historic events as if they also apply to the Kingdom of Scotland these include The exclusively English Magna Carta which is the basis of English law that the Kingdom of England forced upon both Wales and Ireland but never managed to legally enforce upon Scotland … until now.

    The court case opens today in, “The Supreme Court”, illegally invented by the Westminster Parliament that also claimed, (and I quote here the Secretary of State for Scotland):-

    “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom.”

    The problem that Westminster has is that there is not a word of truth in that claim as anyone who can read can assert if the read the Treaty of Union for themselves. With particular attention to the content of Article of Union number 19.

  123. call me dave says:

    An uncomfortable few minutes for Mundell as radio shortbread
    must have found that list of awkward questions that must have been lost in the back of a PQ filing cabinet.

    I don’t think he was expecting such a hard time 🙂

  124. mr thms says:

    With regard to the Growth Commission Report

    “Oil revenues aren’t to be used to fund public spending or reduce the deficit, instead they should be invested for the long-term.”


    Every UK government, since oil and gas started to flow has failed to do this. While the government of a future independent Scotland is expected to do it from Day 1?

    To fund public spending, or not to fund public spending?
    To reduce the deficit, or not reduce the deficit?
    To invest for the future, or not invest for the future?

    Or a mixture of all three.

    Scotland’s political parties will have their own ideas.

  125. Doug_Bryce says:

    Credit where it is due.
    Gary Robertson gave David Mundell a proper roasting on BBC Scotland this morning.

    *All* the questions you would want asked.
    None of them answered.
    Never heard a politician hum and haw so much.

  126. mr thms says:

    With regard to the Growth Commission Report. It says

    “Oil revenues aren’t to be used to fund public spending or reduce the deficit, instead they should be invested for the long-term.”


    Every UK government, since oil and gas started to flow has failed to do it, yet the government of a future independent Scotland is expected to do it from Day 1?

    To fund public spending, or not to fund public spending?
    To reduce the deficit, or not reduce the deficit?
    To invest for the future, or not invest for the future?

    Or a mixture of all three.

    Those are the questions and Scotland’s political parties will have their own ideas on the answers.

  127. Abulhaq says:

    This link is interesting regarding the founder of this outifit which officially describes itself as ‘neutral’ and ‘impartial’.

  128. Brian Powell says:

    They are bringing the white helmets here as they provide mercenaries and hit squads for the UK gov.

  129. gus1940 says:

    Have the British Nationalists now started their campaign against Indyref2 in earnest?

    In the last couple of weeks we have had the Spaceport promise and now we have the Great Barclays Glasgow Jobs Bonanza.

    Are we now going to be bombarded with a succession of fantastic WM promises – all of which which will, if we are daft enough to vote YES in Indyref2, be threatened with cancellation.

    This would appear to be the successor to The VOW.

  130. @Smallaxe,

    it seems like `The Great Game` is alive and well,

    some new players but still the same game,

    wouldn`t believe either side to tell me the correct time of day.

  131. Robert Peffers says:

    @mr thms says: 24 July, 2018 at 8:47 am:

    ” … Every UK government, since oil and gas started to flow has failed to do it, yet the government of a future independent Scotland is expected to do it from Day 1?”

    What Scottish deficit might that be, Mr thms?

    To the best of my knowledge the Kingdom of Scotland doesn’t have a deficit and, far as records go, the Kingdom of Scotland never has had a deficit. In fact under a Labour administration the Scottish Government returned a sizable part of the Scottish Block Grant it gets from Westminster back to the Westminster coffers.

    Historically the still Independent Kingdom of Scotland in 1706/7 had absolutely no national debt and the claims made by the then still independent Kingdom of England in 1706/7 that Scotland was bankrupted are total lies.

    The private company of, “The Governor and Company of the Bank of England”, resulted from a scheme, instigated by the London Scot, William Paterson, (who incidentally was an employee of Sir Robert Harley the English Spy Master). Paterson, and several others, had proposed schemes to bail out the English Parliament/Monarchy that had run up massive National debts, (deficiencies), due to having fought many wars due to the several Westminster, “English Navigation Acts”:-

    “Navigation Acts, in English history, a series of laws designed to restrict England’s carrying trade to English ships, effective chiefly in the 17th and 18th centuries. … The great Navigation Act passed by the Commonwealth government in 1651 was aimed at the Dutch, then England’s greatest commercial rivals.

    hey were also applied to the Kingdom of Scotland – then still an independent kingdom.


    In the event Paterson’s scheme was a public subscription scheme to raise cash, mainly from the English Mercantile Marine who owed their great wealth to those English Navigation Acts.

    The cash was quickly raised and in return for the cash the grateful Parliament/royalty granted a Royal Charter that instigated The Bank Of England, (so called not because England owned it but because England banked with it).

    It remained a private company until nationalised, not by England but by the United Kingdom, in 1946. It thus partly belongs to the Kingdom of Scotland as a partner Kingdom with England in the United Kingdom.

    In 1651, though, the Kingdom of England had massive national debts and Scotland had no national debt. In 1706/7 the debt was the personal debts of the wealthy landowners who were also the Scottish Parliamentarians. The Kingdom had no national debt.

    It was the same William Paterson who, (cough!), just by coincidence, (cough!), instigated the Darien Expedition that bankrupted those wealthy parliamentarians/landowners but the Kingdom itself was not bankrupted.

    Thus when the Kingdom of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England split up and end the United Kingdom , it will be Westminster alone that owns the United Kingdom National debt because Scotland, until very recently, had no borrowing powers and no tax raising powers and her only income was by Block Grant from Westminster. Incidentally Westminster has already conceded that point.

    However, after the United Kingdom ends, the assets and debts of the United Kingdom will need to be shared out between the two kingdoms and it will not be shared only as allowed by the Kingdom of England, (who incidentally have never had an elected as such parliament since 1707, and Westminster is thus unable to take part in the negotiations because Westminster, since 1707, has legally been the United Kingdom parliament and there has been no official parliament of England to legally negotiate with.

  132. auld highlander says:

    gus1940 at 9.43

    You are probably right, more fake news, false promises and down right lies from the south.

  133. Smallaxe says:

    Scot Finlayson,

    Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
    Gautama Buddha

  134. Smallaxe says:

    .@NicolaSturgeon meeting @Barclays @GlasgowCC @scotent @GroupDrum to hear about plans to create a new base for up to 2,500 jobs at Buchanan Wharf in Glasgow;

  135. Breeks says:

    Smallaxe says:
    24 July, 2018 at 8:05 am

    Theresa May refuses to back Javid’s decision to allow death penalty for British jihadis….

    Aye. Poor Theresa just lies awake at night, tossing and turning, worried sick about the morality of all the people executed by drone strike without trial or defence, or simply wiped out of existence for simply finding themselves inside the blast radius.

    Brexit means Brexit, but Death Penalty has wider, more “flexible” interpretations…

  136. Golfnut says:

    @Robert Peffers & Mrs thms,

    Scotland certainly wasn’t bankrupt, nor was money the major issue for those bribed by Westminster. Land and property was the major threat. Robert the Bruce dealt with the constant problem with Scotland’s nobility of land ownership in England and Scotland. If you swore fealty to the King of Scots, you gave up your lands in England and vice versa. This continued more or less up to James the VI becoming King of England where he took a coterie of Nobles and hingers on south with him, he rewarded them with land, English estates, much to the annoyance and anger of the English establishment. It was the threat of the loss of this land which prompted most of Scotland’s nobles, not bankruptcy which made them betray Scotland. Exactly why Bruce had banned the practice.

    One other point, England couldn’t pay Marlborough’s army, which contained many Scots within its ranks, they needed Scotland’s treasury to stop a major revolt. Within days of Scotlands Parliament being suspended, Scotland’s treasury was emptied, between 13 and 17 wagon loads and escorted south. Not exactly bankrupt then, not in deficit now.

  137. Abulhaq says:

    Glasgow will not get Channel 4 hq, it will probably end up in mrs May’s fave city Birmingham. Not too far for London staff to commute.
    As few see the point of a publicly funded ‘national’ channel which contributes little if anything to Scotland anyway, no great loss.

  138. Danny says:

    The White Helmets were founded by an ex British Intelligence Officer James Le Mesurier.

    They are funded by the UK and US Government.

    Here is an in depth report on them.

    Very revealing read for those who follow them.

    “They are made up of former bakers, builders, taxi drivers, students, teachers, pretty much anything apart from rescue workers,” according to the much repeated phrase used by their British ex-military, USAR (Urban Search & Rescue) trainer, James Le Mesurier who specialises in outsourcing warfare – the kind of private security operations exemplified by the likes of Blackwater (now known as Academi) and DynCorp, and other well-known global suppliers of mercenaries and CIA outreach assassination experts.”

  139. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Smallaxe X Any update on how Nana is doing? Well I hope X


    Barclay’s Bank another broken promise in the making? If not someone was telling me that they heard (on the radio) that they’ll be bringing 2,500 staff members up from England.


    Scotland to lose out here too! When our farmers go bust the vultures will be waiting to pounce and buy up Scottish farmland no doubt.

    ‘EU Japan trade deal: Scotland to lose out.’

    ….”However, out of the EU it will be a very different story for Scottish farmers and producers as they struggle for survival against cheap imports of food, which don’t meet European standards, from the increasingly protectionist United States. Instead of thriving order books our producers are more likely to be going out of business. As distance and size matter for any kind of trade deal, the UK is highly unlikely to get a deal which is anywhere near as good as the EU/Japan deal….”

  140. Dr Jim says:

    Now that it looks like no deal everybody will get to share in foodbanks and rationing, it’ll be just like the war eh, an adventure, oh what larks we’re all going to have

    Cos anything’s better than Independence

  141. Petra says:

    Richard Murphy: ‘Is the incompetence of May and Trump deliberate?’

    …”I’ve never wanted to believe that there were those who would create chaos for its own sake. But if you really wanted to destabilise liberal democracy, why wouldn’t you do just that?..”


    The aforementioned post found on here. Well worth a read.

    ‘The end of democracy? Hello plutocracy.’

  142. Smallaxe says:

    Petra says:
    24 July, 2018 at 10:48 am
    “Thanks for the links Smallaxe X Any update on how Nana is doing? Well I hope X”

    Hi, Petra,

    You’re welcome. Nana’s doing fine and enjoying the break, she’s been entertaining lots of visitors recently so I dare say she’ll be running about feeding them all.
    I’ll be sure to tell her that you were asking after her next time we talk.

  143. Breeks says:

    mr thms says:
    24 July, 2018 at 8:47 am
    With regard to the Growth Commission Report. It says

    “Oil revenues aren’t to be used to fund public spending or reduce the deficit, instead they should be invested for the long-term.”


    As I understand it Mr Thms, if you use the revenue to create a Capital fund, like Norway has done, you do not squander your wealth, but invest it, and use the returns or dividends from your investment as your working revenue.

    Norway uses its wealth to purchase commodities which grow in value, which provides Norway with revenue without selling off their primary investment.

    With prudent management, there is no harm borrowing or running a deficit if that debt services ventures with more lucrative returns than a 1:1 sale of your asset. Bank that asset, use the interest as your capital float, and you have a productive economy in perpetuity. Sell your asset, you get a one payment for what it is worth on the day, and it is gone.

    Norway now sees more return from its Oil Fund investments than it sees from its Oil. Every citizen in Norway could take a whole year off work and the Norwegian economy would still be in surplus. The reason is simple… they didn’t spend their wealth, but invested it, and built up their economy with the proceeds of investment, not the irrecoverable one-off sale of assets.

    The debt factor is more complicated. Yes, when you borrow, someone else benefits from the interest they can charge you, so on one level, debt is a bad thing.

    However, you could buy a house by saving up the asking price so you don’t need a mortgage. A long time of prudent saving required, but no money squandered paying interest! Or, alternatively, you could borrow to buy the property, secure a mortgage so you own the property, but put a tenant into the property to pay your mortgage off with their rent, and suddenly you own a property which pays for itself, and once paid off, becomes an asset which keeps producing revenue.

    Keep your debts under control and manageable, put your money to work rather than under the mattress, and you can generate wealth more quickly and securely.

    Our problem in Scotland is that our wealth is stripped from us and squandered. Debt, in those powerless circumstances, does not make sense. We are not in control.

  144. Petra says:

    Alex Salmond’s speech to Catalan independence supporters in Barcelona.’

    ….”Finally and this is important above all – your struggle, our struggle has to provide solutions in the modern world. We have political systems throughout the Western world in the grip of right wing populism. Brexit in Britain is a manifestation of that so is Trump in America. The alienation of the people from political elites is an economic reaction certainly but it is more than that. It is an earnest cry, a prayer from people looking for purpose, for fairness and for identity from political systems. Your party, other parties and the movement as a whole can provide that for Cataluyna – progressive, just and above all inclusive of all. We can only justify the process of building new nation states if they provide a home for those who are alienated, forgotten, those who are lost and one fundamentally better that the states they succeed.”


    And on the same note:

    George Kerevan: Why the rise of the populist right threatens Scottish independence

    …”This explains why recent opinion polls show a growing willingness by the UK electorate to support alternative political voices. The danger, however, is that the political vacuum is being filled by forces on the extreme right. A recent YouGov poll showed that 38% of British voters would support a new party committed to a hard Brexit, with 24% in favour of an explicitly anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim party….”

  145. Dr Jim says:

    The rise of the populist right

    The new phrase to use because nobody wants to say Nazis

  146. galamcennalath says:

    The Independent … “Jeremy Corbyn to highlight economic ‘benefit’ of Brexit as he demands UK stop relying on ‘cheap labour from abroad “

    For Scottish independence, this is a good thing. Labour lining up squarely behind a hard Brexit and ensuring the Tories’ survival, shows their true Establishment first credential.

    Many things could have swung IndyRef1, but one was undoubtedly that in 2014 Labour was ahead in WM polling and a Tory government looked less likely. The cause of Scottish independence is always assisted by Tory prominence, and damaged by Labour resurgence.

    Unfortunately, in Scotland we still have a group of voters will to opt for Labour in certain circumstances. Diminishing those circumstances and seeing Labour align with the Tories (again) moves us closer to the ‘perfect storm’.

  147. Petra says:

    Let’s not forget the Declaration of Calton Hill, folks.

    …”We believe that sovereignty rests in the people and vow to fight for the right to govern ourselves for the benefit of all those living in Scotland today, tomorrow and in future times. The Government of a country is servant to the people, not master of the people….”

  148. Smallaxe says:

    Barclay’s Glasgow jobs may not be secure claims BBC Scotland’s Business & Economy editor;

    (We’re doomed he says) They don’t like it up ’em 😉

  149. Petra says:

    I posted a ‘long letter’ from the National recently submitted by Eddie Bone (apologies to those I didn’t respond to – VERY busy this weather).

    I did so to highlight an alternative point of view giving us some insight into the mindset of someone living in England who is fighting for an English Parliament. He was deluded about the power structures in this country, imo.

    This is Susan Forde’s response to him.

    ”I have sympathy with Eddie Bone who would like to live in a democratic society, but he is in error in thinking that there is no English Parliament (The Long Letter, July 20).

    Since the Treaty of Union “the English Parliament continuing …” incorporated (literally swallowed up) the Scottish Parliament, and with an overwhelming majority, it has kept it this way.

    Westminster is still the parliament of the English state and the English Crown under English Law, and in this jurisdiction the “Crown in Parliament” is sovereign – unlike Scots Law which recognises that sovereignty resides with the people.

    Elizabeth II is an English Queen. Since the English Parliament does not have a constitution and English Law is based on precedent, it can do as it pleases, with no restriction.

    For example it can break all the clauses of the Treaty of Union between Scotland and England, with impunity. It can remove 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters with several oil wells and all the fishing to English jurisdiction without even a vote, as it did in 1999.

    It can strip everyone in Scotland of their European citizenship despite a clear vote of 62% in favour of remaining in the EU.

    It can ensure that when 36 out of 39 MPs representing Scotland (in this case SNP MPs) every single thing put forward is voted down, on principle. This is dictatorship.

    The MPs from Scotland have always been outnumbered 10 to 1 at best in the House of Commons (the City of London has more MPs) and in 1707 there were twice as many Church of England Bishops than Scottish Peers, and that was when Scotland had 25% of the population of England. Today Scotland has a population 8.2% of the UK.

    The UK/ Britain/Great Britain all mean England. British/UK Law both mean English Law. Powers exercised in Westminster stem from Henry VIII of England. The Union flag, so liberally stamped on everything in sight is considered by people in England to be the English flag, since England “includes” Scotland (addresses can only be marked as “UK” not “Scotland”).

    Nearly half of all the treasure sent from the people of Scotland to the English Treasury, Bank of England etc is retained to support London. Westminster controls the amount of money returned, and how it is spent.

    The “British” Government is not a democratic: under the voting system nearly 60% of votes are “wasted” votes; the ruling party is decided by a few marginal seats in England; the party patronage system ensures that MPs are not free in the normal sense; people do not listen to debates but turn up to vote along party lines; the behaviour in the House of Common is a disgrace to a civilised society – this is a rotten and corrupted system of governing not used anywhere else in the world.

    The Westminster Parliament is run by and for a small group of people in their own interest, and will never give up any power to others people or organisations, whether called English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish.

    That is why it wants Brexit: the EU offers some protections; it redistributes some of the wealth sucked into Westminster; it moderates the dictatorial and imperial interests of that Parliament.

    Many people in Scotland only voted to remain in the UK so that they could remain in the EU, with friends and relatives, and with a promise of some more powers over our own affairs.

    But after over 100 years of broken promises about home rule for Scotland we are still a colony, paying taxes without representation. Eddie Bone worries that the needs of people in England are not met: that is because his Parliament is not fit for purpose.”

    Susan FG Forde, Kinross-shire.

  150. Hamish100 says:

    Mundell on radio suggested that the Scots Parliament was subject to the so called Uk Supreme Court jurisdiction when it was created. The Scots Parliament was in place hundreds of years before. Supreme court 2009 with an inbuilt English Judge majority.

  151. Luigi says:


    Indeed, the Scottish Parliament was not “created” in 1999. It was reconvened. “We created it, we can destroy it” is a big fat WM lie that the BritNats would like us to believe.

    I’m beginning to understand the fundamental importance of Winnie Ewing’s words all those years ago. 🙂

    Interesting question for our constitutional experts – If WM can close down Holyrood, what happens to the Scottish Parliament this time? Is it destroyed completely or merely put back to sleep again (sort of un-reconvened)?. 🙂

  152. robert alexander harrison says:

    Yet when it’s scotland though it’s screw you so what if we lied you are not allowed to change your mind you voted no in 2014 we never delivered what we promised so you want to call us to account no you had your say it was no end of yet when it’s England like the frist two showed peop
    le are allowed to change there showering for a month.

  153. robert alexander harrison says:

    Sorry about the last line of my earlier comment it was supposed to read the levels of hypocrisy is stinks worse than someone who’s not showering for a month.

  154. robert alexander harrison says:

    Sorry about the last line of my earlier comment it was supposed to read the levels of hypocrisy stinks worse than someone who’s not showering for a month.

  155. Luigi says:

    “The Scottish Parliament, adjourned on the 25th day of March in the year 1707, is hereby reconvened.”

    Winnie Ewing 1999

    On that wonderful day, whilst the pompous red tories were strutting about, congratulating themselves for shooting the nationalist fox, the SNP were quietly going about their business without fuss, setting the conditions for future progress towards independence. Way ahead of the game. 🙂

  156. Clapper57 says:

    So very proud of my MP Tommy Sheppard last night in HOC…fabulous speech,so interesting, so appropriate considering subject of debate and mega respect for not needing to refer to notes.

    This guy is a class act and I am lucky to be one of the constituents that he represents in the HOC and also represented by fab Ash Denham at Holyrood….both are examples of the qualities one should expect in one’s member of parliament at WM and Holyrood.

    Lesley Laird and Scottish Tories…same old same old…bitter, divisive and frankly the type of politics that discourages ordinary people from taking any type of interest in politics….which is probably THE ideal outcome FOR THEM in their participation in debates etc as far as Scotland is concerned…..can’t have Scots thinking too deeply about politics.

    Keep up the good work Tommy you are fantastic MP as is Ash Denham a fantastic MSP…you are both a credit to the party and the people you both represent .

  157. mike cassidy says:

    If you thought Scotland was the only country with missing wealth.

    ” Chasing the profits booked in other high-tax places is feasible (the information exists), cheap (there is little push-back from multinationals, since it does not affect much their global tax bill), and fast (a framework exists to settle disputes between high-tax countries quickly). This type of enforcement crowds out enforcement on tax havens, which is hard (little data exist), costly (as multinationals spend large resources to defend their shifting to low-tax locales), and lengthy (due to a lack of cooperation by tax havens). “

  158. Andy-B says:

    Hypocrisy at work, many callers come onto the James OBrien show on LBC radio. Bemoaning the need for second EU vote, pointing out how circumstances have changed.

    I smile and think too right they’ve change a second indyref is on the cards.

  159. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Boris, re: White Helmets

    800? I thought the PLAN was to get that many, but in reality only 420 made it (according to the BBC). Can you link me to a source that confirms it’s 800?

    @ Dave McEwan Hill quoting facebook post, “The White Helmets know too much.”

    Interesting mention of the grim word ‘extirpated’ there, humourously quickly corrected with ‘exfiltrated’. The saying “Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead” springs to mind.

  160. So it is alright for those 2jihadists to kill people but they have not to be killed ??? I wonder how many poor souls would still be alive today if we had kept the death penalty ??? It was done away with without the people having a say or a vote about it was forced on the people i am sure if we had had a vote it would have been retained but the do gooders be nice to bad people won undemocraticly the way they always do so much for fair play or majority rule

  161. call me dave says:

    Lord Keen for the UK Government in the Supreme Court hearing is doing his bit. Court adjourned till 2pm.

    Hard going for us plebs but interesting stuff. 🙂

  162. Jack Murphy says:

    Dr Jim began his Post yesterday at 7:01pm:

    “Tommy Shepherd makes an excellent speech and gives a history lesson into the bargain but basically points out pretty clearly that Labour are passionate about what they feel is their ownership of Scotland and the Tories really couldn’t give a monkeys about Scotland or its people….”

    Here’s the link to Tommy Sheppard MP in the Commons yesterday:


  163. call me dave says:

    Rejoice says Big Auntie:
    Pay Cap removed for public sector darn Sarf!

    My better half cut me short when I mentioned it..

    “I ken whit your goannie say, whatever we do in Scotland they do within a year in England”

    Jings! That wis me telt…back to the supreme court hearing 🙂

  164. Breeks says:

    The Scottish Parliament isn’t there because Westminster “gave” us it.

    The Scottish Parliament is there because the SNP forced devolution onto the agenda, and the Scottish electorate voted to have its own devolved Parliament.

    Westminster and the BritNats might like to pretend “they” gave us our Parliament and that they can take it away again, but it’s an assertion they cannot really back up.

    There is a reason the British State strives so very, very hard to keep discussion of Scotland’s Constitutional status off the mainstream agenda. Scotland’s strength is our Sovereign Constitution. The BritNat’s strength is our lack of knowledge about of our Sovereign Constitution. As more and more of us learn the truth, we grow stronger and they grow weaker, so spread the word and give people links to source material they can check for themselves.

    Throw open the archives. We have nothing to hide. The BritNats must deny, obfuscate, subvert the truth, control the narrative and set the agenda because they must hide everything.

  165. Roger says:

    @ yesindyref2 says:
    23 July, 2018 at 5:24 pm
    “It’s a real problem for the UK though after a no-deal Brexit, if Ireland cuts up rough as they’re completely entitled to. Currently Ireland quietly allows overflight for the likes of Russian Bear interception by Typhoons. If that stops it compromises the UK’s security more than Ireland’s. Yet another benefit of Brexit”.

    I think people need to get their heads straight here and stop buying this idea that the Russians are out to get us all. It’s a convenient fable to justify massive spending on defence – big contracts for US and UK arms manufactures, which is why Trump wants more defence spending by NATO countries. The idea that Russia wants to invade western Europe is simply ludicrous – what the hell would it want to do that for? France as nukes and France and Germany together spend more on defence than does Russia.

    And here’s a thing, Russia annexed the Crimea, but there’s a majority Russian population in the Crimea and the Crimea was part of Russia until Khrushchev got drunk one night in 1954 and gave it to the Ukraine. But they say this is very bad of Russia…
    Now consider Israel’s annexation of the west bank and Jerusalem – territories that were never part of the State of Israel and which do not have an Israeli majority (yet – they soon will though, with all those illegal settlements). But we’re told Israel is ‘the only democracy in the Middle-East’ (which sort of depends on how you define ‘democracy’). And any criticism of these Israeli annexations is labelled ‘antisemitism’.

    We really need to stop simply swallowing the self-serving Washington/London narrative on all this. It might be politically risky to criticise it, but we should at least discount it. The more we buy into the narrative of the Russian ‘threat’, the more we are vulnerable to critiques of independence based on the idea that it would ‘damage’ NATO or leave Scotland ‘vulnerable’. It’s all BS, and we shouldn’t buy into it, we should ignore it.

    The same goes for Iran. Iran is supposed to be this big bad theocracy, but it’s actually far more liberal than Saudi Arabia – check it out yourselves – but the Saudis are never criticised.

    The independence movement needs its own – independent – view of international relations. The one we’re being fed is designed for one reason only – to justify domination by the US and the UK (note that Ireland, Austria, Finland and Sweden manage quite well without NATO)

  166. Dr Jim says:

    O/T Electricity

    Power suppliers are changing their tariffs without people realising it’s happening check your accounts if you have direct debits they’re even trying to up your rates without proper notification

    E.on just tried to hike mine 150% per month and that was supposed to be a fixed deal, on complaining to them they immediately dropped 50% then I immediately switched and got a deal 8% less than I was originally being charged in the first place

    So watch out

  167. galamcennalath says:

    Roger says:

    Iran is supposed to be this big bad theocracy

    I always consider it noteworthy that only two parliaments in the world have reserved seats for clerics … UK and Iran.

    That aside, the UK largely decides who the good and the bad guys are in the wider world, based on arms sales potential.

  168. Big Jock says:

    Remember those Yes Indi – Leave EU voters they think we lost?

    You-Gov new poll

    Scotland: Remain 73% Leave 27% UK wide: Remain 53% Leave 47%

    Think that rump of 27% will be hard-line Brits now!

  169. Breeks says:

    Unionists, or BritNats, call them what you will, when they bang on about their victory in 2014, increasingly remind me English Football supporters and commentators banging on, and on, and on, and on, about England winning the World Cup in 1966.

    There is one important distinction however. For all their obvious frustration and disappointment that England hasn’t won it again since, even the most tiresome, crushing bore finding any excuse to dredge up England’s 1966 victory has never once advocated respecting the 1966 victory for all time and never ever holding a World Cup Tournament ever again.

    It isn’t YES who needs to respect the result of 2014, it’s the BritNats who need to get over it, and attempt to secure victory by winning the argument, persuading the electorate, capturing hearts and minds, not merely preventing the contest from taking place.

    England whining on and on about 1966 is kind of embarrassing and cringeworthy. Get over it. 1966 was 52 years ago. I’d say the same thing to any BritNat. 2014 might only be 4 years ago, but even a Football World Cup is only good for 4 years, and then you have to win it again.

    But just for the record, personally, speaking for the only person I can properly speak for, I hold the BritNats victory of 2014 in absolute contempt for all its lies, improprieties, wall to wall propaganda and grotesque distortion of the material arguments needed to win the result. The question for me has never been whether or not the Constitutional debate should be revisited, but whether Unionism and the BBC should be drummed out of the competition for unsporting behaviour, flagrant disregard for the rules, and for bringing the game into disrepute.

  170. Lenny Hartley says:

    galamcennalath Add the Isle of Man to your list of unelected clerics being in Parliament.

  171. K1 says:

    I was always ‘doubtful’ that we had lost them Big Jock. 62%…and 2 years of the writin’ oan the wa’…Remain was never going to ‘decrease’. Mundell’s ontae plums if he thinks Scotland will accept a No Deal Brexit.

    I think even given the UK wide figures…the tides are turning, in general.

  172. Liz g says:

    Blair Patterson @ 1.01
    Re The Death Penalty..
    Its not about being nice to bad people at all Blair
    It’s about giving the State the right to kill it’s Citizens,and that means you and me!
    No government should have that power… Ever….
    Do you seriously want Westminster to have that power over the Scottish… Do you seriously want Holyrood to get that power after we’ve left?
    Because that law is for everyone not just bad people.
    And if you think that the list of people who could fall under it won’t include people who act against the State/the Crown you have no been paying attention.
    Think for a minute about the stuff they call us,and I don’t mean the no voter’s and the knuckle draggers, they are just noise.I mean the media the politicians and the talking heads. It’s a hop skip and a jump to “we are a danger to our way of life and something has to be done”.
    Governments shouldn’t have the kind of power,just as we now all understand monarchs shouldn’t
    This is a little discussed EU protection but a very important one..
    Learn from History Blair,don’t harp back to an older age where “things were better”,they weren’t, they really weren’t.
    Haven’t you worked out harping back to a bygone age is why the OO, the Tories and Westminster are in such a mess.
    One of the first things in our Constitution,right after our Sovereignty and certainly before any of the Windsors,is I think that the state cannot kill it’s Sovereigns…thats us Blair…. The state cannot kill us because we “the People” out rank it,if you believe in Scottish Sovereignty surely you have to believe that?

  173. Iain mhor says:

    Re: Spaceport
    Much as I would laud such a thing don’t want to get all ‘Queensferry Crossing is shite” there is a lot of hyperbole at the moment.
    The site will not be a Scottish ‘Cape Canaveral’ far less even as sprawling as the old Black Arrow Woomera rocket range.
    It will be a small gantry a hard standing and some prefab buildings. You could just about launch a cubesat to Sun Synchronous Orbit from your backdoor.
    The company is a Venture Capital startup. You might launch a Kickstarter campaign to build and a fancy Quadracopter – they did the same thing but said tbey’d launch Cubesats. The governments input is funding the infrastructure on the ground. There is more cost in upgrading the roads and/or (a lot more probably) building a supply port.
    It’s all mostly funded by private investment with the government chucking in a few Jaegers of concrete.

    The fact that regulations regarding space-flight, aviation airspace, military et-al are reserved powers is the only reason the Scottish Government couldn’t already have knocked up half a dozen launch sites without even looking down the back of the sofa. It will however be lauded as “Only the ‘Broad Shoulders of the Union Pooling and Sharing can fund such a cutting edge and futuristic British Space Program because Scotland is shite at it”

    It’s possible the site may expand to rocket building and testing facilities like Woomera in the 60’s (with the emphasis on ‘may’) but equally all those R&D jobs, infrastructure construction and lovely moolah, may take place elsewhere, nearby, within a few hundred miles at least, definitely I’m sure.

    I think it’s great and wish every success for such a venture,
    They need to be quick though. If Starlink and its constellation of 20,000 cubesats comes online in the next 5 years I can’t see there being a lot of commercial profit in it. Though it would I suppose be useful for military purposes.
    Ends cynicism.

  174. Sharny Dubs says:

    It scares me shitless but as I see it.

    They can not afford to let Scotland go. Why give up such a lucrative asset to what? 5.3 million, no way, not happening.

    They don’t care if they fall out of the EU without a deal. The EU is the only chance Scotland has of getting any recognition of its status, so out of EU at any cost.

    The far right is making a serious comeback, Trump and his fascist “advisors” along with the WM elite will lead the new order, destroy the EU, destroy Nato, destroy the UN, out of the chaos big finance will forge the new totalitarian rules, where the old, the weak and the disabled will be put to the wall and the general population will be cannon fodder, and do as they are told. It’s the natural order.

    Independence! Do you think we have a chance? Look what they did in Catalonia, and that was within the EU, imagine what they will do when we are out.

    Not paying the EU dues? Who will trust the UK if they don’t? Do they care? no, their friends are regimes that survive by brutality and raw power, they have no time for “agreements” or “human rights charters”

    We can make our grand speeches, our rally’s and banner waving and be outraged at their behavior, will it make any difference? WM don’t give a flying f*@k, they do not play by any rules, they cheat, lie, threaten, bribe, do whatever to gain the goal of having a state with total control and no one to question or hold them to task.

    Like I say, scares me shitless.

    Rant over, I’ll get my coat and back in my box.

  175. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Big Jock, re: Yougov poll

    Bloody hell. Looks like I’m wrong, very wrong. Hope to see another poll soon with similar results to the same direct question that was posed to get the 73% (and all credit to them for asking such an unambiguous question) – then I can let my suspicions go and be happier that Sturgeon knows, as Cactus says.

  176. @Smallaxe

    think it was either Confucius,Aristotle,Socrates or Dolly Parton that said,

    `I know that I am intelligent because I know that I know nothing.`

    or did they ? 🙂

  177. Liz g says:

    Sharny Dubs@ 3.37
    Take yer coat back aff Sharny.
    If ye need a rant here is the place tae be doing it.
    Catilonia is unfortunately signed up to a Constitution that expressly forbids it from separating from Spain…. We’re not.
    It’s only a Treaty that we are in and nothing but a vote stands between us and ending that Treaty.
    As for the EU… well that’s just a Treaty too… So the EU really has no business interfering with the Constutional arrangement of a member.
    We wouldn’t want it to when ye think about it.
    Part of me hates that they aren’t able to help Catialonia but I do like that it’s kept to its rules!
    While I agree that some in Westminster knows they cannot really afford to let us go… they also canny say that, their populations think we are just an expensive indulgence, and there’s nae body here gonnie disabuse them of that….
    In fact when ye listen tae the way English MPs and the British media talk !!! Most of them don’t really realise it either.
    We’ll be fine and we’ll be gone, but you canny go in tae yer box till then we need ye tae be Campaigning…..

  178. Robert Peffers says:

    @Mary miles says: 24 July, 2018 at 2:34 am:

    ” … Thank you for your reply Robert. Indeed I have felt the same way about Independence since I was a little girl. The first vote I could make in Scotland before I left for Australia was for the SNP hoping Independence would come some time in the future. That was back in the 60’s and of course I was laughed at the time as the numbers were not there but as they say the dream will never die.”

    Aye, Mary the dream will never die and you were not alone in the 1960s heading off to Australia. My sister, her husband and her brood headed off to Aus and in 1962 my young brother, who was born with severe disabilities died and my mother and father, who had just retired, decide to become £25 poms and went to join my young sister.

    Some years later Mum got hit by a car in a hypermarket car park and died as a result of her injuries a few years after the accident. Dad only died in Aus just a few years ago.

    None of them ever shared my SNP and Scottish independence feelings but there is no doubts they were, and are, culturally very much Scottish. The thing is that no matter where you go in the World you are certain to bump into people of Scottish decent for, far and away Scotland’s greatest export has always been people born in Scotland and that as a result of the union with the, three country, Kingdom of England.

  179. Meindevon says:

    I’ve been trying to catch up with that ‘debate’ last night in the House re bigging up the U.K. and Scotland’s place in it.

    I am finding it difficult to find the words to say how I feel about it. It just seemed to be hours of attacking the snp. They used words like bullies, divisive, they likened is to fascists and even na@is. We were a cult and the snp treated the Scots with contempt and were trying to deliberately ruin Scotland and its name in the world. Tory Stephen Kerr (?) was just horrid.

    There was nothing positive about the Union, nothing except if you think things are bad now we will just be doomed, doomed doomed with independence. But they more or less said these things of a country that has voted in the snp for 11 years. How are they going to get those votes back by the utter defamation of a huge chunk of its electorate?

    I feel totally lost in the U.K. but worse I feel hated because of lies, lies and more lies by these Unionists.

    Sorry really low.

  180. Robert Peffers says:

    @Blair Paterson says: 24 July, 2018 at 1:01 pm:

    ” … I wonder how many poor souls would still be alive today if we had kept the death penalty ??? “

    That comment by Blair Paterson is the biggest load of pish it has been my misfortune to read since the case of Derek Bentley in 1952.

    Derek William Bentley “A victim of British justice?”.

    Derek Bentley was hanged on the 28th of January 1953, at the age of 19 and the above words appear on his grave stone.

    On the 30th of July 1998, the Appeal Court finally ruled (after 45 years of campaigning by his father, sister Iris and since Iris’ death the previous year, by her daughter, Maria Bentley Dingwall), that his conviction was unsafe.

    Derek Bentley was illiterate and is alleged to have had a mental age of 11. He also suffered from epilepsy as a result of a head injury received during the war.

    On Sunday the 2nd of November 1952, Derek Bentley went out with his friend, 16 year old Christopher Craig, to see if they could carry out a burglary. Bentley was armed with a knife and a knuckle-duster which Craig had recently given him. Craig had a similar knife but was also armed with a .455 Eley revolver.

    Craig normally carried a gun and it is reasonable to suppose that Bentley would have known this. They were thwarted in their attempts on their first two targets and finally chose to break into a warehouse belonging to a company called Parker & Barlow in Croydon, Surrey.

    As they climbed onto the roof of the warehouse, they were noticed by a little girl who lived opposite and whose mother phoned the police. The nearest patrol car arrived very quickly and contained a detective constable (DC Fairfax) and a uniformed constable.

    Craig and Bentley were on the roof as the police arrived and attempted to run but DC Fairfax quickly detained Bentley (note I do not say arrested). Craig decided to shoot his way out and fired at DC Fairfax wounding him in the shoulder. At some time during the shooting, Bentley is alleged to have said the now famous words “Let him have it, Chris”.

    Bentley offered no resistance to Fairfax and stood by the injured policeman without any restraint for the next 30 minutes or so. (Hardly the action of a desperate young thug who could very probably have easily overpowered the wounded and unarmed Fairfax)/

    Other officers arrived on the scene within minutes, some of them armed. Craig continued shooting at anyone that moved and as the first of the reinforcements, PC Sidney Miles came up the stairs and through the door onto the roof, he was shot through the head and died almost instantly.

    Craig eventually ran out of bullets and threw himself off the roof in a vain attempt to avoid capture. He landed on a greenhouse roof 30 feet below and broke his back.

    Both Craig and Bentley were charged with the murder of PC Miles. But should Bentley have been charged with murder at all? There were reasons for such a charge, but they took no account of his retarded mental state or the undisputed fact that he neither had possessed nor fired a gun.

    Now here’s the point – When Bentley said, “Let him have it, Chris”, did he mean that, “Chris”, should shoot the policeman or did he mean,, “Let him have the gun”, that the police were telling Chris to hand over and give himself up?

    Bentley was, after all, standing unrestrained and offering no resistance not attempting to run away. Remember also that in those days it was fairly normal for a criminal to hold his hands up and say, “It’s a fair cop, guv”, to an arresting officer.


  181. yesindyref2 says:

    @call me dave
    There may be a bit of a change in tone with the no-deal being more likely plus the shambles, but too early to tell yet. It would be good if we could look forward to a more impartial media. Anything’s possible!

    Yes, there are economists on the fence I think, same as there were constitutional experts. Their first priority is economic principles, and, presented a case, or even some searching questions with a bit of a MMT blurb applied to iScotland, could get some good responses. Rattle the cage a bit! Maybe a small group of those who know could set up a plan, and start a crowdfunder.

    I don’t think anyone’s buying any line that the Russians are dastardly do-bad evil really really nasty people. I didn’t even buy that during the Cold War, and curiously while the BBC was pushing the line West good, USSR bad, there were also documentaries on the likes of the health service in East Germany being superior to most if not all in the West, advanced medical techniques the lot. Plus quite blunt programs about what was behind it all, and of course programs about the Second Front in the War where so many Russians lost their lives (as well as Germans).

    But the reality is the Russians test the defences, and provoke reactions, and for that it doesn’t matter who started it, you defend against possible attack.

  182. Shary Dubs says:

    Liz g, thanks for the sober support, I’m 65 yo and have never voted anything but SNP and have never thought anything but independence. I work abroad and sometimes feel a bit useless, but I’ll soldier on. We have no other choice.

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