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Waving goodbye to reality

Posted on July 19, 2015 by

Alert readers will have noticed that for the last week or so we’ve been challenging some of the conventional wisdom about Labour’s election victories from 1997-2005. While the right wing of the party and commentariat regularly insists that Tony Blair was its most successful leader ever, we demonstrated that over the course of his leadership he lost Labour over two million votes, whereas Neil Kinnock’s reign had resulted in a GAIN of three million.

In short, New Labour’s victories were primarily the result of the Conservatives being in a catastrophic state during Blair’s rule, exhausted by almost 20 years of power and scandal and infighting about Europe. With William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard at the head of a shattered opposition, Labour could have won those elections with Piers Morgan or a Teletubby in charge.

labourtubbies

What our research also found was that the most striking thing about the period since Blair became Labour leader in 1994 was a staggering and almost overnight increase in the number of British voters turned off politics altogether.

In 1992 just eight million people entitled to vote stayed at home. By 2001 that number had rocketed to EIGHTEEN million, a 125% increase in nine years, and in May it was still at almost 16 million.

Since Blair, eight million UK citizens who used to vote have simply walked away and washed their hands of the entire political process. That’s quite a legacy, but it’s also an opportunity, because it’s a lot of people waiting for a reason to vote for someone. (Most of them young and/or poor, two traditionally Labour-friendly demographics.)

Bizarrely, it’s an opportunity Labour and its allies seem utterly determined to shun.

This weekend the Observer published the results of a survey it had commissioned among voters who’d backed Labour in 2010 but who defected to the Tories this year. Funnily enough, despite the claims made about a similar recent Survation poll, there isn’t a single mention of the SNP in the article as the reason for their switching.

The piece notes some of the reasons they did give:

“[they] believed that Labour had left the economy in a mess and that the Tories had gone some way towards putting it right”

“[Labour] was also seen as anti-business, in the pocket of the unions and not tough enough on immigration”

“They seemed to be on the side of people on the social not people in the middle like us.”

“Immigration is the topic that, left to their own devices, the respondents would have talked about all night.”

“It’s not up to the government to provide good jobs; that sounds like the nanny state.”

“It might be the moral thing to look after those refugees, but we can’t let them in while we’ve got two million unemployed.”

We can sum those reasons up in four words: these people are Tories.

Anti-immigration, anti-welfare, anti-public sector, anti-unions. You’d be hard pushed to better describe a natural Conservative (or UKIP) voter. Goodness knows how these people ever came to be voting Labour in the first place. But there’s another, far more important finding about them in the survey:

“These people would not themselves switch back to Labour but would wait until others voted them in, and until they had earned back respect. This means election 2025 will be the earliest they would consider voting Labour again.”

That’s pretty unequivocal, right? That’s a direct, open statement that Labour is wasting its time even TRYING to attract these people back for the next election. Or in other words, pursuing them will mean absolutely certain defeat and a minimum of 15 years of Tory government.

So who IS going to elect Labour, if not these Tories? It’s a Catch 22 – the deserters will never vote Labour again until Labour get in, but in pursuing them Labour can only alienate its core vote, making sure it never does.

So regardless of whatever your personal beliefs might be, the ONLY sane conclusion supported by the empirical evidence is that Labour MUST find the millions of voters it needs from somewhere other than the Conservatives.

There are almost no Lib Dem voters left to capture. It’s not getting them from the SNP any time soon and winning over any of the four million who voted UKIP seems like a very long shot. The ONLY resource available for Labour to tap is the disillusioned, disenchanted, millions-strong left that New Labour drove into apathy.

Obvious, right? The inescapable product of any process of basic logical thought. Yet astonishingly, in an editorial on the poll the Observer leaps exactly the other way:

“A growing number of the Labour party membership now seem to view Jeremy Corbyn as the answer to that drubbing. This is like a pupil who, on being told they answered incorrectly, repeats the same answer shouting ever more forcefully. It’s still the wrong answer.

The party faces a choice. It can strive to get re-elected and thereby have an impact on those it purports to represent. Or it can sink in to a warm bath of delusion and face an even larger wipeout in 2020.”

What? Weren’t you listening?

What the paper’s own survey found was that chasing after Tory voters was a futile approach doomed to certain failure, yet it’s exactly what it recommends Labour does. It demands that Labour bins its ideology and principles – that is, its entire reason for existing – in the vain hope of power that would be meaningless anyway:

“For Labour to shape the country’s political centre of gravity it must wield political power, and to do this, it must convince the centre ground. That’s politics, not ideology. Labour needs to decide which it is more interested in.”

Harold Wilson – who won four elections as Labour leader, one more than Tony Blair, in far more difficult conditions – famously said that “the Labour Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing”. The current incarnation of the party has descended so far into barking lunacy that not only is it choosing the latter option, it’s plotting to immediately overthrow its own democratically-elected leader if the only candidate who stands for those moral values wins the contest.

“Labour MPs are plotting to mount a coup against Jeremy Corbyn before Christmas, if he wins the leadership in September.

The left-wing MP for Islington North has staged a stunning raid on support among constituency labour party (CLP) organisations in the past week, prompting panic among supporters of the three mainstream candidates, Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall.

Two internal polls also suggested a surge in support for Mr Corbyn, with one even suggesting he could win on 12 September. Although this result is still seen as a long shot, MPs said in the event of a Corbyn victory they would immediately start gathering the 47 names needed to trigger a coup.

One said: ‘We cannot just allow our party, a credible party of government, to be hijacked in this summer of madness. There would be no problem in getting names. We could do this before Christmas.'”

We’ll be honest, readers, we’re struggling for hyperbole to describe the level of utterly delusional insanity being exhibited by Labour and its media supporters. Presented by a disastrous defeat and voters saying they’ll never elect it again, it describes itself as “a credible party of government”. Told in the plainest, most direct terms that chasing Tory voters will mean guaranteed failure, it resolves that it must do exactly that.

How do you begin to rationalise that? How do you even attempt to reason with a party planning to hold a democratic election and then to instantly overturn the result if it doesn’t like it? (And what would happen then? Why would the result of a re-run be any different? What impression would such a farce give voters of Labour’s credibility?)

How can you cope with a party that reads stark, unambiguous words (“We, the people who left you for another party, will not return no matter how much you beg us, until you’re already in power on the votes of someone else”) and somehow interprets them to mean that it must lust even more desperately for the unattainable?

Nothing makes sense any more. Stop the world, we want to get off.

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    4 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 19 07 15 13:40

      Waving goodbye to reality | Politics Scotland |...

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      Waving goodbye to reality | Speymouth

    3. 23 07 15 14:05

      Congratulations, Private Eye… | A Wilderness of Peace

    4. 02 08 15 22:25

      Could Jeremy Corbyn save the United Kingdom? | avidinquirer's Blog

    246 to “Waving goodbye to reality”

    1. handclapping says:

      And you feel that there isn’t a space in the English political firmament for a party that is on the side of the little people, supports the welfare state, doesn’t believe in the economics of “austerity”, opposes Son of Trident and is affiliated to the SNP?

    2. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Aye, planning a coup if Corbyn wins. Thats going to go well for them. Time to leave them to fall apart and something useful may rise from the ashes.

    3. blackhack says:

      The Labour party of today reminds me of those civilisations in South America (Incas, Aztecs, etc) that once flourished and then disappeared without trace leaving just relics of what once was….They are going in exactly the same way..

    4. muttley79 says:

      How the hell could Corbyn be hijacking the UK Labour Party by winning the democratic election for its leadership? Then the unnamed source goes on to talk about a “summer of madness.“ No hint of self awareness there. Barking at the moon stuff.

    5. Wulls says:

      RIP labour.
      It was a blast while it lasted……..
      Wonder if Tony Blair will read the eulogy ??????

    6. Proud Cybernat says:

      It all makes sense when you realise that Labour MPs really are red Tories–not just in name but in ideology. These Labour MPs and their right-wing, neo-liberal dogma should be booted out the Labour party. They are not socialists and probably do not even know the meaning of the word. If Corbyn wins then he should take the party back to its roots and get rid of these red Tories. It will undoubtedly mean Labour will be split right down the middle and in disarray for the next election but if it means they will win more support in the long run (say 2025) then so be it.

    7. Helena Brown says:

      Sadly with the amount of brainwashing you see in the media, both print and televisual it seems to be easy to turn many in England towards the Tories. Doesn’t seem to have the same cachet here in Scotland, we have had good cause for our dislike since we fell out of love with them since the fifties.

      Labour are in the grip of the Establishment and have been for a very long time. They are also in the grip of the US Establishment aka Murphy, Brown and Blair.

      They think they can be the Democrats of Britain, but we do not care for this so they are stuffed.

    8. Chitterinlicht says:

      Starting to think that there is something quite scary going on here.

      The basic assumption is that the labour party want to be in power and do something different from the tories.

      What about if that assumption is wrong and they are comfortable with tories in power rather than be a credible,left alternative ?

      You lay it on a plate form them yet they dont want to eat.

    9. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

      Corbyn’s message is the Tories policies are repulsive. Let’s not be a Tory tribute act, but a socialist party.

      That message terrifies the British establishment, who shout, hold the centre ground. The centre ground in England is right wing. Whatever your opinion is of Corbyn’s politics, he’s the only contender who has a rhetoric. Unlike the three stooges. In my opinion Corbyn will have mass appeal among their traditional and disillusioned voters-hence the establishments’ fear. Oh the irony.

    10. JLT says:

      Labour are basically going the same way as the old Liberal Party of the early 20th Century.

      In some ways, and it must make you wonder, has the Labour Party made the fatal mistake as that of the Liberals, that by the end of the 1920’s, had become too right wing, thus forcing the electorate to look elsewhere?

      The Labour Party at the end of the 1920’s replaced the Liberal Party as the party of opposition to the Tories. Now, we ask the question; was the 2015 General Election a key moment that finally saw the end of the Labour Party as a major force?

      By losing catastrophically to the SNP in Scotland, the unthinkable became reality …Scottish Labour is no more.

      Now barring the SNP doing anything seriously stupid (and yet, hoping at the same time that the Tories stick to form and remain the party of nasty soan-soas), then Labour may never see power again …unless of course that is, they become the new Tories by taking on Tory policies as their own, which is something that has always been suspected, and literally proven on this site.

      How long it takes the other half of Scotland to grasp the new political reality is another key question. Once ‘No’ voters realise that the Southern UK political ideology is actually alien to them (…and I do believe they are aware of this fact. They just need to get their head around accepting it), then it can only be a matter of time before they also say ‘enough is enough’.

      So …reflecting on that, we could say that we live in rather interesting times…

    11. nodrog says:

      Labour, like the Dodo is gone and will not return in our generation. The BBC(particularly BBC Scotland) is still alive and kicking the Independence cause. We should target our real enemies.

    12. galamcennalath says:

      Good appraisal of where Labour seems to be, and where it seems to be heading, versus where it probably should be!

      I smell a rat, or shite, or something very odd. Just too many entities are chanting this mantra about Labour needs to out-Tory the Tories.

      My guess is it’s a huge con by the establishment to ensure that the UK is governed by Tories with Tory-Lite as the faux opposition. And should the populace feel like a change from the Tories, then Tory-Lite can slot in for a while and not present a threat.

      This all only makes the case for Indy stronger.

    13. ahundredthidiot says:

      Sometimes I get the impression Rev is trying to coach the Labour party back to glory.

      There’s an old saying about kicking a man when he’s down, but what the hell, they deserve everything they get for 2003.

      I can also be forgiven for thinking a lot of ex-labour are secretly pining for some sort of Lazarus moment, get over it, it’s gone, over, finito, end-ex, done and dusted, deid as a feckin doughnut.

    14. muttley79 says:

      I see Darling and Reid both want Kendall to win. No wonder SLAB are in the state they are in.

    15. Jack McKenzie says:

      Wilson was right.

      No morals, no party.

      (fuckin’ eejits)

    16. ScottieDog says:

      Yes it’s the neo-liberal press insisting 2+2 = 5, the trumpeters of austerity insisting if you can’t fit a square in a round hole you aren’t trying hard enough.

      This will prove a lost decade but I wonder how many have to suffer before the lazy clot-headed public decide to stop feeding at the mainstream media trough. “how do I know it was true? I read it in the ——” substitute mail, telegraph, express, Scotsman, guardian etc.

      I will be very surprised if lab leadership contest isn’t a fit up.

    17. Jimbo says:

      IMO a great many people were put of politics during the Blair years because all they brought us was spin over substance. The Tory opposition retaliated in kind and people became sickened of their shallow politics.

    18. Midgehunter says:

      I’ve no sympathy what so ever with UK Labour and its northern branch.

      Kezia & Co are exactly the same, simply delusional.

      We’re witnessing political evolution where a party is disappearing from existence and a new one(SNP) arises to dominate and expand.

      The Tories are where they are, not because they are so good, but because there is no real opposition. Nada! Only the small SNP have enough guts and experience to do the job. Expansion is now probably required.

      The void in England is getting bigger by the day and needs filling. The Tyneside area is Scotland’s nearest neighbour and potential trading partner, an ally waiting for a leader.

      Will the SNP reach out for it?

    19. Macart says:

      It’d be about par for the course where Labour are concerned. When a narrative doesn’t suit, rewrite history.

    20. Brian Powell says:

      That’s the paper showing all the correct results but deliberately drawing the wrong conclusion, this allows all lazy and agenda driven hacks and activists to repeat the wrong conclusion citing the authority of the Observer. Job done.

    21. Indigo says:

      Did anyone else notice Andy Burnham doing the Jim Murphy style ordinary bloke & football metaphors thing on Sunday Politics this morning? It was bizarre – they seem incapable of learning from their mistakes.

    22. Lanarkist says:

      This ludicrous quandary that they jettison towards is as a result of the majority of its MPs coming through private, expensive education straight into Oxbridge then into politics.

      The party leaders know nothing of the lives and experiences of the people it is hoping to represent through never having lived amongst them.

      The leaders and media come from the same mindset, clubs and dinner parties and still consider Labour to be a centre left party.

      This alone tells you how delusional they have become.

      I sometimes wonder if the bankers will fully abused the relaxed banking regime that Labour allowed to flourish in order to bring about regime change and shift British politics entirely to the right across the political spectrum.

    23. ahundredthidiot says:

      O/T

      I am with nodrog on this know your enemy business, (BBC) and if Rev decides to run a piece I will post a big fat juicy lie they reported with subsequent apology/admission.

    24. Lawson says:

      Corbyn has no chance but it gives the Press something to spout about New Labour are a doomed PARTY their biggest mistake having been in taking Scotland for granted, and just to put the final touches on their suicide, dancing with TORIES ON THE REFERNDUM then the penultimate touch of stupidity on the rejection of support from the SNP.
      They will never be in power again in these UK’s unless on a shared basis

    25. Fiona says:

      I think your case is both obvious and unassailable, Rev. But you would not know that from reading any of the MSM “first draft of history”.

      Labour is history in the UK as well as in Scotland, IMO. It will take a little longer in England for there is no obvious place for the core labour vote to go. But go they will.

    26. Les Wilson says:

      They are a total mess, the right wing media shaking hands, job done! They live in some kind of fantasy world where only middle England should be chased for votes.

      As the Rev pointed out here, it is their wrong target, yet….

    27. heedtracker says:

      Caught some Kendall waffle on BBC leader debate this morn, how Labour lost trust on welfare she smirked, so two child cap on child benefits here to stay under her reign. I have never heard anyone say they don’t trust them on welfare, Chancellor Brown/Darling’s catastrophic prudence prudence fraud economics certainly but not welfare.

      They all looked as relaxed, calm and happy as if they were in government this morn, which effectively they are in policy.

    28. Les Wilson says:

      We should set a trap for the BBC, they repeat all the doom and gloom in Scotland with big smirks.
      However, if they are fed the wrong information, what then?

      Once called out, how do they justify when caught bang to rights!

    29. MD says:

      Blair’s successors in the Labour leadership will never be personally benefit from Corbyn as leader, therefore he must be ridiculed and removed by them even if it means 15 years in opposition. Better 15 years leading the opposition than a return to the back benches and obscurity.

    30. R-type Grunt says:

      Great article Stu!

      I surely can’t have been alone in watching the Labour hopefuls on Andrew Neil this morning and realising that what I’m looking at are three Tories and a Socialist. Labour are traditionally the Socialist party but I can’t help but come to the conclusion that Jeremy Corbyn is now in the wrong party.

      What I really don’t understand though is that we here aren’t exactly geniuses. Surely the Labour party also know what we know. And yet they continue to go in the wrong direction which leads me to believe that they don’t really care. Let’s face it, they still receive a wage, even in opposition. In fact, even if they didn’t it wouldn’t matter because they’re all loaded anyway. England is rapidly turning into the USA – with two parties whose policies you couldn’t get a fag paper between.

      It’s politics by Lewis Carrol. Utter madness.

    31. Iain More says:

      Meanwhile the death screams of the Labour Party seem almost trivial set against the fact that we are being softened up for another war or two.

    32. msean says:

      So apart from not liking the results of democratic elections (or referendums-even when you win them) who would these guys get to stand for leader after Corbyn wins (if he does win that is) seeing that the party will have said no to the losers of this leadership election?

      They lost a lot of MPs in 2015. So there may be a dearth of MPs who want to be leader just now knowing that they would probably face a counter revolution or a huge drop in party memberships because of the rebellion.

    33. nodrog says:

      Almost finished reading “London Calling” by G A Ponsonby about BBC Bias during the referendum campaign. In my opinion if the Scottish voters were made aware of the contents of that book they would be clamouring for Independence tomorrow. Fantastic research, well documented and a great topical narrative of what actually happened. It should be compulsory reading for all.

    34. Dorothy Devine says:

      How about the Liberal pillock?

      He’s had 2 bites at the SNP courtesy of the herald and no comments allowed.

      About time the Last Liberal in Scotland was discarded.

    35. Effijy says:

      New Labour have thrown away the values and principles on which the party was formed. They have no foundation on which to build.

      They have operated for with shallow career politicians who were
      put in place because they had been shop stewards or long term party organisers, not because they had ability, aspiration, or
      the resilience to improve the quality of life for the majority.

      Here we are on a site with people who generally sit left of centre and who stand up for fair and just society, and who have the decency to tell these lying delusional sycophants that they are wasting their time siding up with wealthy Tory voters.

      They have their party and its the real thing delivering more and money money from the disadvantaged and the abused workforce.

      You can only help an addict who wants to be helped, but this mob just want to keep on doing what they are doing, while trying to convince those who have their measure, that they are listening, caring, and working for the working classes.

      Leave them to die peacefully.
      Their next conference might be in Switzerland.

    36. heedtracker says:

      At the very least Corbyn would be actual toryboy opposition. He must be worth a vote considering the ferocious monstering teamGB media gives him. Its not at their we all hate Salmond/Sturgeon campaign levels yet, or maybe New Labour just hasn’t got the balls for at least 5 years of BBC led we hate Corbyn don’t we teamGB.

      Once again, thank fcuk creepy Morphy, currently backpacking around New Zealand, was nothing like Jeremy Corbyn.

      Wonder if what remains of SLab realise what they did, trying to appease their UKOK political masters in Pacific Quay? All they’re left with now is a very thuggish red tory and failed party planner, voted in by Morningside, Edinburgh’s world famous hot bed of socialist workers.

    37. Dr Jim says:

      It’s a lot easier and much more comfortable to be in opposition than government
      You don’t have to actually do anything, just oppose, abstain shake your head and look frustrated by the big bad Government

      Point out irrelevant and meaningless surveys you have undertaken about stuff nobody is actually worried about and then have your propaganda wing (BBC) talk a lot on telly about them

      There you have it Complete and total Labour Part Policy

      Policy Objective 1… For God’s sake don’t win
      Policy Objective 2… Whinge a great deal
      Policy Objective 3…If you look like you’re doing well Create a Scandal
      Policy Objective 4…If all else fails refer to rule 1

      Phew!! Saved ourselves from winning an election there

    38. paulTgeist says:

      R-type Grunt says:
      “Labour are traditionally the Socialist party but…”
      Correction – They were!

      R-type Grunt says:
      “we here aren’t exactly geniuses.”
      Eh, speak for yourself, i am a bona fide genius.
      I left school without a letter or exam qualification to my name.
      So there! Genius personified!

    39. Clootie says:

      Sums up the modern Labour Party….”we can’t accept the democratic vote of the members, we will over turn the elections until we get the leader we chose”

      We (the professionals)know better than the little people…now where have I heard that before.

      Liz Kendal supporters can’t take a hint.

    40. YESGUY says:

      The best yet Stu.

      Death to LIEbour. I am chuffed to bits they are a mess. They have been found out in Scotland and the rUK has no trust in them. Since Blair they have been tory-lite and the poor , disabled, unemployed and the young have paid a terrible price for their mis-management of the country.

      We give them too much oxygen talking about them with many hoping they will “see the error in their ways” and come back to the people.

      They are nothing more than fakes.

      Scotland is going it’s own way… thank feck. All WM have to do is give the rUK someone to blame and they’re off. Chasing shadows. Cameron must be laughing his head off.

      I no longer care what happens down south. They have made their pishy beds and can lay on them.

      As for Slab.. Roll on SE 2016. The corpses can finally be buried for good. The joy watching the Slab msp’s lose their jobs will send me into raptures.

      Who’d have though after the Ref this would happen ???

    41. Macart says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      Farron?

      He’s living down to Liberal Democrat standards in that he is neither Liberal nor democratic.

      Who knew?

      An apologist for Tory enabler and abuser of ministerial post, who apparently, if you’re fair minded’, should get a second chance to do it all over again.

    42. gerry parker says:

      @nodrog at 2:40.

      Aye, a cracking read. Finished it just last week and I’d recommend it to everyone who can afford it, and if you can’t, ask at your local library.

      G A Ponsonby. “London Calling”

    43. Macart says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      Farron?

      He’s living down to Liberal Democrat standards in that he is neither Liberal nor democratic.

      Who knew?

      An apologist for a Tory enabler and abuser of ministerial post, who apparently, if you’re fair minded’, should get a second chance to do it all over again.

    44. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Superb analysis.
      I have been shouting for some time that we will never see another UK Labour Government. Thatcher’s victory(ie Tony Blair)is complete.
      We must get out – as soon as possible.

      O/T Any clue anybody about the high ranking Labour paedophile featuring in today’s SUN

    45. handclapping says:

      Look here Macart, who said you ‘should get a second chance to do it all over again.’ And dont give us guff about how it was your computer that did it 😀

    46. Dr Jim says:

      Nout like a bit a Bully,

      Now if you elect Jeremy Corbyn by mistake, we’ll wipe slate clean and start again

      Now look at what you could have won if you make Reet Choice

      You’ve got yer 3 Tories and yer Can’t believe it’s not Tory

      Go on now Have another go until you get it right

      If you fail don’t worry you’ll still get a Bendy Policy Bully

    47. David Agnew says:

      Suitable hyperbole?
      A array of cartoonishly inept, opportunistic careerists, who mistake belligerent imbecility for opposition politics. They have been trapped in a catch 22 situation and their solution is blow smoke up their own backsides as well as the UK MSM. The stench of labours stupidity has removed the Medias ability to speak truth to power. This in turn has removed labours own sense of “self” awareness and made it impossible to implement the reforms needed.

      In strict laymans terms, they are fucking useless shitebags.

    48. heedtracker says:

      https://archive.is/zuMg0

      Lord Darling explains why he didn’t stand for reelection after his triumphant Project Fearing last year. That’s lie, he puts the red tory boot in really hard and its all because

      “We must be ready to defend the solidarity that comes from staying within the United Kingdom. Remember: we won the referendum decisively as Nicola Sturgeon admitted only last week. Too many party members seem to have forgotten that. It was confidence and self-belief that won it.”

      Which is why Flipper;s confidence and self-belief that led him scarper to the great Lords unelected trough of a lifetime, keeping the red flag flying with fellow UKOK socialist workers, like Lord Foulkes what noone can actually ever vote for, or against.

      Its the teamGB way.

    49. Lochside says:

      Who cares what Labour do next?…If Corbyn succeeds, then our struggle is undermined. As I stated in a previous thread, faux socialists like him only will divide our drive for Independence.

      The reality of the brutal neo-fascist state we have been yoked to cannot be disguised by gradualists such as Corbyn. Let the do their stuoid worst and dismantle what is left of the pretence of what passes for ‘opposition’ in the Westminster pantomime.

      The Labour party has demonstrated time and again that it is a pale shadow of EngToryism. Would Harold Wilson have allowed Scotland its rightful share of North Sea?…Of course not! Remember his government bombed Biafra back into the Stone Age to secure Brit interests in Nigerian oil.

      Let’s stop navel gazing about Labour and its phony bourgeois Anglo-centred ‘crisis’…let’s concentrate on kicking against the pricks of the British State on our own road to our Damascene change of belief.

    50. nodrog says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      19 July, 2015 at 2:52 pm
      How about the Liberal pillock?

      Now, now Dorothy Mr Farron seems to be a perfectly reasonable man whose suggestion that Alistair deserves a second chance I agree with. Alistair should take his second chance – at the ballot box, and the sooner the better!!

    51. HandandShrimp says:

      If you vote for the wrong candidate we will simply have him replaced.

      Sounds like Glasgow City Council Labour group

      🙂

    52. Robert Louis says:

      I watched in horror at the Andrew Neil ‘hustings’ today, and was shocked at the totally right wing garbage most of them were spouting (except Corbyn).

      Then there was Liz Kendall. Surely she is a Tory plant within the Labour party, please tell me it is so. I closed my eyes, and honestly it could have been any Tory speaking.

      To say Liz Kendall is a bit right wing, is akin to saying Adolf Hitler was a bit naughty.

      Labour party, R.I.P.

    53. Dr Ew says:

      OK, Teletubby leading Labour might just have squeaked it in 2001 or 2005, fair enough, but… PIERS fucking MORGAN?!?!?

      I can only assume that line was composed after partaking of a Sunday joint.

    54. Robert Louis says:

      Lochside, I agree with your comment. Corbyn whilst notionally a ‘leftie’ is part of the same machine, and could never achieve anything he describes.

      Frankly, I couldn’t care who Labour chooses next, as they are simply ‘one-nation’ red tories, and I will never vote for them.

      Let them screw up, it’s what they deserve.

    55. Marian says:

      Regardless of whether Jeremy Corbyn wins or not, the Labour Party is heading for a split right down the middle between the right wing bro-liberal ideologues and the true left socialists who still remain within Labour.

    56. Macart says:

      @Handclapping

      Heh, double the bang for your buck. 😀

      Connection has been off and on for the past couple of days. Never sure if something’s been sent off right or not.

    57. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the Andy Murray vs France Davis Cup tournament is going well for Andy.

    58. G H Graham says:

      It all makes perfect sense to me. Labour has leaned, nay lurched, heavily to the right.

      Heck, there’s even a convenient image to illustrate it here … http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-great-narrowing/

      So it is no surprise that a party which, regardless of its history, spouts right wing rhetoric ad nausea, can reasonably be considered to be right wing.

      Thus, it will naturally seek the approval of that part of the electorate which it considers to have right wing tendencies.

      I think it is safe to say that “old” Labour, the one based on social equality & the fair distribution of wealth doesn’t exist anymore.

      The consequence of Labour’s shift to the right is that millions of potential voters in England have simply stopped voting.

      And the consequence in Scotland, is a huge surge in support for the SNP, a party which the chart suggests, sits just left of centre.

      As a side note, it’s interesting to observe that, despite the common unionist complaint that the SNP is running a dictatorial, one party state, the chart suggests that Labour & the Conservatives are considered significantly more authoritarian.

    59. Flying Scotsman says:

      Hi everyone.
      Been lurking for a while and figured I should introduce myself.
      Fantastic site Stu,very informative and the first i check every day.
      keep up the good work.

      @Macart – loved your article on WGD a few weeks back.Are there any more planned?

    60. Effijy says:

      O/T Any clue anybody about the high ranking Labour person featured in the SUN

      The Guido Fawkes web site made this statement-
      “Lord Robertson was the referee on Thomas Hamilton’s shotgun licence.” (Hamilton was the Dunblane massacre gunman)

      Guido also suggested that the police had confiscated a yacht
      under proceeds of crime, which was to go to public auction, as with all other such goods, however it seems that it was sold to Hamilton for a very much undervalued sum, although he did not appear to have such funds of this value to call his own???

      This link below will assist you too.

      http://paulmalpas.com/are-the-chickens-coming-home-to-roost/

    61. Molly says:

      Anyone else find it interesting that the BBC ( Andrew Neil) and BBC Scotland are paying and running the Labour Party’s hustings ?

      Should the Labour Party not be organising and paying for their own ?

    62. AndyH says:

      I think you should keep all this a secret. Don’t point it out to them. The sooner that party breaks apart the sooner something new can happen. I feel sorry for the English having nothing decent to vote for. The SNP should set up something down South and throw a spanner in the works big style.

    63. heedtracker says:

      HandandShrimp says:
      19 July, 2015 at 4:15 pm
      I see the Andy Murray vs France Davis Cup tournament is going well for Andy.

      and then straight back to the bloody war. How Jules Holland and the BBC saved London in the Blitz, with his smarm no doubt. What is it with BBC twerps and the war etc

    64. Algernon Pondlife says:

      At the time I felt Harold Wilson a bit too central in his centre-left position (but recognized the need for “real-politic” and was thankful for the progress made}. Now new labour are out of sight of that centre having swallowed the neo-liberal narrative hook line and sinker.

    65. Effijy says:

      Murphy, currently backpacking around New Zealand, was nothing like Jeremy Corbyn.

      I hope that nobody mistakes Dim for Dobby in Lord of the Rings,
      as it was shot in New Zealand.

      Could we crowd fund to see if they would keep him? lol

    66. Tom. Paterson says:

      Loved Sue “you know” Barker’s comment at the end of the tennis, that she was especially looking forward to the semi-final because it is England versus Australia. Good luck with that one Sue.

    67. Iona Brand says:

      All these disconnected voters aren’t looking for a left wing or right wing party. They’re looking for an HONEST party. Hence the massive rise of the SNP; it’s not policy, it’s credibility.

    68. Skip_NC says:

      Two points that strike me. I haven’t read all the comments, so apologies if I repeat anything.

      Firstly, I read “barking insanity” as “banking insanity.” Either one works, I think. Secondly, it seems to me that a Corbyn win would not be hijacking the party. Rather, it would be taking it closer to its roots than it has been in the last 21 years.

    69. Dave Hansell says:

      Perhaps the key point which slaps you in the face from this and the previous pieces in the same vein by the Rev Stu is the level of cognitive dissonance which exists.

      And not just within the upper echelons of the New Labour Party, the ones who make decisions and have various levels of influence, but also amongst a large enough section of the activist base.

      For sure, if the poll runes are being read anywhere near accurately about the level of support for Corbyn, it follows that at least amongst a sufficiently large proportion of the membership, if not the activist base, there has to be a large chasm of difference between that membership and the Party’s oxygen breathers.

      It would seem reasonable to conclude, from the recent TV lecture by Harriden Harmen urging Party members to think carefully about who they vote for (ie do not dare vote for Corbyn you plebs), that those with the power, influence and future corporate directorships to think about within the Party are well aware of this reality.

      And there lies the hub of a number of problems. Not least of which is the fact that these people do genuinely have a problem with reality. They do not like it. Indeed, they wish to banish reality so badly it aches. They reek of it, these hollow men and women.

      One comment has made the valid point about the dearth of potential choices for alternative candidates from within the Party should any coup take place against a Corbyn leadership win.

      However, that is essentially a secondary problem. In the event of Corbyn winning the leadership where is he going to find a sufficient number of not only experienced people but also people who would support what he stands for in his shadow cabinet and beyond who will not be working day and night to undermine him and everything he stands for?

      Where are the Robin Cooks, Frank Dobsons, Chris Smiths, Claire Shorts and Mo Molams. For sure all those above made serious errors of judgement or failed to live up to expectations even though it was within a context in which they represented a minority within the Cabinet of 1997. There are very few people in that mould, if any, within the Party today.

      There seems to be a sense that a Corbyn leadership will provide scope for the Party (I’m using that term in an academic sense by the way, rather than expressing any kind of personal view) to move away from its exclusiveness tendency and be more open to genuinely working with other groups and parties to provide some effective opposition not just inside the Westminster bubble but also outside of it.

      If that is the case it is wishful thinking. The Party is too far gone. With the odd exception Corbyn would effectively be on his own. It would be a hollow victory simply because he would be leading a hollow Party.

      The best that could be hoped for here is that the coup actually takes place in the time frame reported. Apart from the obvious disarray which would ensue it would leave the ousted Corbyn and anyone at any level from the top to the membership who supported him with nowhere in the Party to be.

      It would force the issue of creating an alternative political party/grouping to the South of Hadrains Wall with not only existing parliamentarians but also a pissed off group of members ripe for galvanising that would no longer be subject to the Party discipline of the anti-realityists.

    70. Tom Paterson says:

      Are you sure that’s a picture of the Teletubbies. I admit that the red one doesn’t look much like Jeremy Corbyn, but I think the other three are instantly recognisable.

    71. Robert Whyte says:

      The Snp should put the full put there full weight into getting Corbyn elected. Its a win win. If Corbyn wins then they can work with him. If he loses then Labour is shown how much like the tories they are and will lose a lot more voters. Those voters will in scotland flock to snp and in england they wont bother voting.

    72. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The SNP should not intervene in anyway in the election of the UK leader of the Labour Party.

    73. A2 says:

      Simple, the higher ranks of the party is populated with changelings. It’s been assimilated into the “establishment”
      They are only following their natural instincts by trying to push Corbin out of the nest.

    74. Gordie says:

      Labour won’t get a chance until the tories burn themselves out. 15 yrs time maybe. The vast bulk of the parliamentary labour party and all of its supporters in the press have absolutely nothing in common with people who are penniless and have little hope of anything other than demeaning and exploitative forms of work for the extent of their lives. They have nothing in common with any those people who have made the decision to shun the political system judging that the UK system is designed to keep them far away from the decisions and powerless. The labour party reeks of that sense of entitlement. Labour people exactly like Yvette Cooper and Harriet Harman can’t keep the money and the fancy titles coming in if they don’t play the game can they?

    75. brewsed says:

      There is another article is the grauniad
      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/19/observer-view-labour-leadership-election-jeremy-corbyn

      Which contains the following sentence: “It [i.e. Labour] not only lost but was routed in many heartlands, crushed in marginals and rendered virtually invisible in the south”. Cough, cough, tap on shoulder, excuse me, but they were rendered virtually invisible in the north, north of Hadrian’s Wall that is, though perhaps that does not count or was Scotland a heartland and I am being unjustly sensitive. Meanwhile, one of the reasons Labour were rendered virtually invisible in their previously northern heartland was that they were perceived as Tory Lite and, until that perception changes the Scottish Branch of the Labour Party are likely to remain so.

    76. jcd says:

      I don’t know if I’ve any real grounds for it but I’m uneasy about all the advice being given out – from here as well as elsewhere – to the red tory party about how they could revive their fortunes.

      Speaking for myself I don’t want them revived, I want them to continue on the path they’re on till one day we get to sit back and watch them go over the cliff into total and permanent obscurity. Even if they showed signs of a genuine move away from neo liberalism what good would that do us? Would it hasten Independence?

      In the same vein I’m concerned about Corbyn potentially splitting the SNP vote at some point, intentionally or unintentionally. Just occurred to me I don’t know exactly where he stands on Scottish independence, does anyone else know?

      Help counter anti-Scottish propaganda

      http://www.inform-scotland.org

    77. John Thomson says:

      Margaret Thatcher killed off old Labour when she destroyed the industrial industries the Tories know this onll to well. It will take decades for scottish labour to return if not generational.

      a very sad day when 3 tories are representing labour, Corbyn needs to win if labour are to survive.

      scottish independence is only a short time from here

    78. Legerwood says:

      David Hansell @ 4.53 pm

      When you say ‘where are the Robin Cooks, Frank Dobson’s, Mo Mowlam etc’ perhaps, in part, it is their failure to nurture and bring on talent that has contributed to the current state of the Labour Party.

      Perhaps the appointment of time-servers and placemen (or women) who made the ‘talent’ look good by comparison and who owed them loyalty through patronage has lead to the current state of the party.

    79. Reviresco says:

      Effigy says….
      Aw naw..did naebudy tell Dim Jim it’s winter down there?

    80. boris says:

      The Westmister system of goverment, based in London is hopelessly compromised by, a number of well cushioned families whose wealth is securely tucked away in offshore accounts, Banks, Hedge Funds, Offshore Companies, Large corporations eg supermarkets, a multitude of Lobbying enterprises, Insurances, Russians, finance attributed to the world trade in narcotics.

      In support of the foregoing the political establishment has changed so that there is little difference in the background, ability or the factors driving any of the MP’s elected to office. With one exception The SNP group of MP’s elected to Westminster.

      The Scottish representation reflects Scottish society, (witnessed by the excellent maiden speeches).

      The other parties are heavily influenced by the SPAD system which has created opportunity for the bulk of constituencies to be represented by people who have never worked outside college or University. The SPADS are loyal only to themselves. We used to term them “Johnny Come lately”.

    81. CAnWeHAveOurDemocracyBack says:

      I’ve often wondered if the truth re Labour is more frightening. The Blairites control over the party since 1997 has resulted in many (relatively) right wing people being selected as MPs and an ever widening gap between those in positions of power within Labour and the actual grass roots membership. Certainly the egalitarian, campaigning, party that works for the citizens rather than the establishment has now been destroyed.

      Isn’t that what the Bankers, the Tory Press and the 1% (who pull the strings), wanted all along – a “Pretend” opposition?

      I don’t blame the Tories for doing what Tories have always done,rule for the benefit of a small elite. I blame Labour for allowing them to do so. Even now with these Draconian “reforms” going through paliament, Labour is not even pretending to fight back.

      Happy to let millions suffer for years so that they will eventually get another shot at power in a decade or so. While continuing to collect their big salaries in the meantime. Shameful.

      I hope Corbyn wins the leadership and I hope the party splits into 2 new parties”Real Labour” and the Blairite careerists. (Although most of the Blairites could easily join the Tories and not be out of place).

      IF the Labour party remains “as is” it will eventually be replaced in England but not without a decade or more of right wind greed and lunacy. I’m not sure there would be much left after 5 years of Boris or Gideon in charge.

    82. G H Graham says:

      The reaction to Labour’s bipolar disorder by voters in May, can be summed up in two sentences:-

      When given a choice between a right wing party & one that pretended to be right wing, voters in England chose the real one; the Conservatives.

      When given a choice between a left wing party & one that pretended to be left wing, voters in Scotland chose the real one; the SNP.

    83. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here’s a hypothesis.

      Corbyn wins and becomes leader. Meanwhile, secretly, he has been networking among ordinary Labour ‘grass roots’ members, and MP’s (and MSP’s) whom he knows are of a like mind.

      The right wing launches its coup, at which point Corbyn and half the MP’s announce that they are leaving the Labour Party and setting up the ‘Real Labour Party’, with a proper left of centre agenda and, also, announce they will vote with the SNP opposition in the HoC.

      Now, the interesting question is, what would the Corbyn supporters in Scotland call themselves? ‘Scottish Real Labour’, or “Real Scottish Labour’?

      I think the order of the words would be revealing.

    84. Macart says:

      Of course the truth is staring them in the face, they simply daren’t admit it.

      Labour no longer exists and hasn’t done for some time. They aren’t socialists in the vein of those who formed the party and they certainly aren’t representative of those whom they were created to represent.

      They simply wear red a lot.

      There is only one option for ‘UK’ Labour to become electable and that is to become a Labour electable for the English electorate. That is to say a new conservative party who may or may not have a social conscience. Maybe they’ll look suitably sorry when they enact their own neo liberal policies. Who knows?

      As for Labour in Scotland? Just what are they for? Scotland is already well served from the centre left outward. We have to all intents and purposes a party of government that Labour should have been and in the Greens and SSP, parties who form the solid core of proper opposition who actually give a damn about the people and where they live.

      In point of fact what are all of the establishment parties for? We’ve seen how they conduct their politics. The scandals, the smears, the patronage, greed, the manipulation and the fear. We know for an absolute fact they see the public as nothing more than electoral coinage. These are people who practice the politics of real division, societal division. They think nothing of abusing their offices to further party political agenda and to hell with the collateral damage amongst their own electorate.

      Our politics and our governance is getting more sure footed by the day in Scotland. With continued public engagement and oversight its set to get even better. ConLabLib are yesterday’s bad dream and tomorrow is another new day.

    85. woosie says:

      I confess to being a little surprised at the willingness of so many wingers to analyse and advise on labour’s next move. Only the msm are keeping them in the news.

      Labour are saying nothing, and no-one is listening.They are an ex party!

      It would say something profoundly depressing about uk politics if no other party can emerge, or even be created, to form realistic opposition to the tories.

      I’m much more interested in the SNP’s magnificent wm team, and how they are articulating themselves. I’m also fascinated to see Alex Salmond’s plans unfold; he’ll manipulate the uk parties into a cul-de-sac, then we’ll see SNP stock rise again among english voters.

    86. gn2 says:

      Unite is affiliated to and therefore a part of the Labour party.
      I am a Unite member, I am also an SNP member.
      An organiser from Unite phoned me up to get me to register to vote in the Labour leadership elections.
      In order to vote you have to affirm that you are not a member of an organisation opposed to the aims and values of the Labour party.
      I told the organiser of my SNP membership and asked if this barred me from voting.
      Turns out that despite repeated attempts by the SNP to forge a meaningful alliance with the Labour party at Westminster, the Labour party consider the SNP to be an organisation opposed to the aims and values of the Labour party and I am barred from voting.
      So there you have it.
      Despite effectively being a member of the Labour party and (up till then) paying the political levy, I am not entitled to a vote.

    87. Grouse Beater says:

      Sue Barker crying England, Harry and St George at UK Davis Cup. Murray and co must spend a lot on ear plugs. Another blunder for the list:

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/oops-i-mean-britain/

    88. handclapping says:

      @Brian Dtt
      Why should Corbyn leave? It would be upto the Red Tories to quit.

      But the SNP shouldn’t want Labour to survive at all. It would be in SNP interest for a left party to emerge in England, the new England left party or nelp, that had no history of having Scottish “heartlands” and therefore able to address the “Scottish Question” without reference to their, nelp, political interests in “Union” giving them extra, nelp, seats.

      Its a bit like watching your alcoholic mate. You can tell him/her but if he/she doesn’t want you can’t help and there isn’t even a methadone you can stabilise them on.

    89. Ken500 says:

      London Luvies have Labour by the nuts. Labour can get lost.

      Tim Farron is nuts.

    90. Ken500 says:

      Those orchestrated nationalists tennis supporters put people off. Is someone paying them for commercial purposes.

    91. bjsalba says:

      For fun I set up a table of basic info about the Labour leader candidates.

      Columns are Name, HS Education, Uni, Degree subject, Business experience.

      I got the info from Wiki.

      Try it. When complete decide whether to laugh hysterically or cry hysterically.

    92. The Moidart says:

      Labour?? There is no labour anymore. There are no liberal Democrats anymore. They both played a blinder pre election. They never had any intention of being in power. They stopped representing the people decades ago. Their only purpose now is to ensure tory rule for the next decade or so. A ship of fools. If corbyn comes anywhere near a win they will bring him down for sure. Politicians don’t run politics. Businessmen do.

    93. Joemcg says:

      The most scary statement in this whole thread is stu’s. FIFTEEN years of Tory rule?? God help us all. What the hell will Scotland be like in that time? We will be royally shafted.

    94. Grouse Beater says:

      FIFTEEN years of Tory rule?? God help us all.

      God favours Englishmen.

      No voters will suffer too. The question is, will they react against SNP governance for assuming they are left unprotected, or realise they themselves invited the Tories to do their worst when they voted No?

    95. Paul Bower says:

      Great piece. Thank you. Some of us are listening. Paul Bower London Labour.

    96. Iona says:

      I am utterly mesmerised by Labour’s inability to grasp this simple concept. LABOUR VOTERS WANT YOU TO MOVE LEFT!! When even the constituency party organisations (the grass roots) are telling them so, they still don’t get it. It is truly gobsmacking. Bizarre!

    97. James123 says:

      England Australia has a wonderful ring to it” says Sue Barker after GB beat France in the Davis Cup to reach the final. A match in which the only players to win were Scottish (Andy Murray and Jamie Murray)

      See here at 4hours 12mins
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b063d57h/davis-cup-2015-davis-cup-great-britain-v-france

      You know it could well have been Scotland against Australia in the final but much it’s much better that our players are representing England.

    98. They say love is blind and Labour loves power, enough said.

    99. Phronesis says:

      A political party that no longer believes in society and has left the 99% behind. However…in the spirit of Joseph Rowntree who campaigned to abolish poverty and inequality his legacy organisation has just published research on Scottish communities who support each other and where kindness and humanity does exist- flies in the face of a political philosophy that only supports the ‘deserving’ but not the ‘undeserving’ poor and cannot relate to the concept of reciprocity.

      http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/understanding-everyday-help-and-support

      And in the world of that other party where the sun’s only shining on the 1%(or increasingly the 0.1%)a damning report on the scale of homelessness in young people in the UK. Worryingly these are the known homeless young people -many in London are rough sleepers in the borough of Westminster.It must be terribly inconvenient not only to trip over homeless people coming out of the opera but also your place of work.

      http://www.cchpr.landecon.cam.ac.uk/Projects/Start-Year/2014/Estimating-the-scale-of-youth-homelessness-in-the-UK/Report/Summary/view

    100. heedtracker says:

      “England Australia has a wonderful ring to it”

      Its coming home, its coming home, tennis is coming home…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ASk6t6xjfQ

      Come on England:D

      Thanks again proud Scot buts.

    101. gus1940 says:

      Am I being paranoid or is it possible that the rise of Blair and the New Labour project was an operation carefully orchestrated by these nice people who operate out of Langley, Virginia culminating in the current situation where we now have the 2 main parties at WM almost indistinguishable from each other just like the situation across the pond with the Democrats and Republicans.

      Blair of course after crawling up Bush’s backside has been suitably rewarded for his good work by having millions thrown at him on the Rubber Chicken Lecture Circuit and it looks as if Brown is now following suit.

      The Labour leadership will, of course, be decided by those who count the votes.

    102. steveasaneilean says:

      Yes Stu – I read the article this morning whilst sitting in a cafe eating brunch and said out loud “They still don’t get it” much to the bemusement of the neighbouring table who, rightly, suspected I was a bit mad.

      Anyway no where over countless pages pushing Liz Kendall and a further lurch to the right did they stop to ask why (Not) Labour were annihilated in Scotland by a party that had clearly moved far to the left of them and were seen by many as standing for the ideals that (Not) Labour used to stand for.

      This crazy pursuit of the “middle ground” of soft Tories and Merchiston wannabe socialists will lead to their extinction because you cannot beat the Tories at being Tory!

    103. The Moidart says:

      Gus 1940… Not paranoid at all. A year before 9 /11 a document was released regarding defence strategy for America. New century something or other. Saying a new pearl harbour was required. Spoke about flying planes into tall buildings in the USA. Three of its authors were in the bush administration within months of its release. Russell.Cheney. Wolfovich. And they became very rich men through various business ventures rebuilding Iraq. Halliburton etc. Next thing you know Barack ebola will win a Nobel peace prize….

    104. john king says:

      Macart says
      “They simply wear red a lot.”

      What?
      like this you mean?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C39C7ajxsF4

    105. The Moidart says:

      Rumsfeld. Not Russell. Sorry. Phones been a bit weird. Lol

    106. Swami Backverandah says:

      “The current incarnation of the party has descended so far into barking lunacy that …” if it was a dog, you’d put it out of its misery.

    107. Macart says:

      @John King

      Spookily John, it wouldn’t shock me at this point.

    108. Tinto Chiel says:

      Your brilliant analysis is wasted on Labour, Rev. I couldn’t care less about them and a Corbyn win would only tempt some Scottish Lefties to return to the delusional “socialist” fold and weaken the SNP position. I don’t trust Labour to work with the 56 and am not clear what JC’s view of independence is in any case. I know soft Yessers/SNP who would jump ship to serve on SS Labour Holy Grail, believe me and in a heartbeat if they play the violins.

      Even if he were to win, what socialists could he find to work with him?

      Labour=Heart of darkness.

      Mistah Kurtz he dead.

    109. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      jcd at 5.32

      I’m with you here. I don’t want the Labour Party revived in any way. I want it finished. They (with the media that actually runs and uses them now) have been the only major political impediment to independence for the last two decades.

    110. Rob James says:

      Briandoonthetoon @ 5:57

      That’ll be Real Labour (Northern Branch Office)

      If Corbyn wins, how will Slab react? They will have to change their tune and then do likewise if he is given the heave-ho by those on the right. What’s left of their credibility will vanish. I just hope that it happens soon. This is panning out to be the longest suicide note in history.

    111. ben madigan says:

      i have a feeling there are a few issues that are not being separated out with regards to the Labour Debacle in Scotland and the UK.

      Here they are as i see them – not necessarily in order of importance or impact

      1) labour is losing everywhere in europe, not just in the UK but also in ireland (north and south), greece, spain, france

      2) “local” parties are gaining left-wing ground – snp, sinn fein, syriza, podemos, 5 star movement in italy, greens

      3) some right wing parties are poised to take votes from labour -french front national, UKIP

      4) British Labour is firmly Unionist. In the UK, alternative “local” parties (SNP, PC, SF) are not Unionist and (no surprise) people like the idea of throwing off links with Westminster because they know they have not been governed well or fairly

      5) being firmly Unionist means supporting the status quo in the EU and the eurozone (hence Labour’s rightward drift) but

      6) people in the Eurozone like the idea of throwing off the burden of austerity as (witness the recent deal with Greece) we have seen the eurozone really signifies neo-conservative dominance (thanks Merkel and Schaeuble)

      So in my mind Labour’s fall in popularity is a rather more complex issue than the short-hand slogan “they are just Red tories”

      However, the end result is the same – voters don’t want Labour, don’t trust them (rightly as labour is trying to reconcile two utterly opposing principles i.e. welfare and well-being of citizens vs neoliberalism) and will not vote for them.

      Can Mr Corbyn reverse the trend?
      In my opinion –
      Yes, he will get votes,
      He may even survive the threatened internal coup,
      Unless circumstances change radically,
      he will, like Mr Tsipras, have to struggle hard against the external coup of the eurozone, whether the UK is in it or not.

    112. Thepnr says:

      Don’t fret, the Labour Party is beyond revival. The parrot really is dead.

    113. Dave Hansell says:

      Gus1940,

      If you have not already encountered it you might well be interested in the work of Robin Ramsey on the influence of the US and it’s agencies on the British ‘left’ which goes way, way back.

    114. Simon Curran says:

      The issue is also where have voters gone missing? I live in a constituency where there was apparently a 99% chance of a Tory victory (underestimation in my opinion). If I never voted it wouldn’t matter. Have voters gone missing across the board or have some places been worse hit than others? Do Labour not mind alienating voters in safe seats if a more right wing approach will win them key marginals in England?

    115. Tackety Beets says:

      Thank Rev for some OTT sterling work these last few days.

      To use a famous quote Ref the Labour Party
      “Quite frankly my dear I don’t give a dammmm”

      Sorry OT

      It’s a follow up on my several previous posts and some discussion a few threads ago.

      Ref BBC in particular RS referring to “information obtained from Labour ”

      Tonight STV news Now at it too First off the block . They quote ” ………… 53k working days lost to stress in the past 2 years according to figures obtained through a FOI from Scottish Labour the figures were released …….. ”
      We then get two short interviews with SLab MSP Hugh Hendry.
      A short Interview with a Dep Chief Constable Rose Fitzpatrick who will naturally defend S House .
      The last words from HH is “at the root of all this is a funding problem ”
      There is no one from S Gvt / SNP and no mention of how many stress days pre the Set up of new Single Force .
      Remind me HH , was the Single force not set up due to funding reductions from WM ?
      Remind me HH what has Labour @ WM done so far , or are going to do with regards to the VAT situation of SP ?
      Clearly Slab are drip drip feeding the MSM to try and set the agenda of SNP Bad but as always fail to offer a solution to whatever problem they highlight.

      I find this current idea that both RS & STV are running with headline stories which they openly admit are sourced from Labour .

      Shurley shumfinsh nae right !

    116. john king says:

      ITV News
      “England humiliated by Australia in the cricket”
      oh well thank goodness they managed to save face by winning the tennis eh? 🙂
      did anyone else see Andy Murray dropping the union flag on the ground? snigger, it looked like he chucked it on the ground

    117. heedtracker says:

      gus1940 says:
      19 July, 2015 at 8:05 pm
      Am I being paranoid

      Probably. The US is actually a progressive liberal group of states, some much more so than others obviously. The world’s problem is that same war mongering super rich turds that own the UK, BBC etc don’t tell us about them and also own much of the US.

      US problem solving and productivity is pretty spectacular to watch. And they don’t tolerate a BBC either, but produce fantastic tv art that London centric BBC can only rip off, over and over and over.

      Go figure.

      And cue President Trump.

    118. The Isolator says:

      Woosie@6.00 pm

      Agree completely.. there is an unhealty fascination with the British Labour Party hereabouts.

      In the coming months it is incumbent on the SNP at Westminster to “kettle” these fools into territory where they feel least comfortable. It’s what the SNP strategists might refer to as essential exposure.

      Corbyn’s a stalking horse to placate the more traditional wing of the party.They’ve simply thrown them a bone while the real feasting is over the fence in the modernists garden next door.

    119. michael diamond says:

      Agree with jcd at 5.32. I couldnt give a toss who leads the liebor party, the quicker these scumbags become an nonentity the better. Sleekit two faced red tory, self serving a””eholes.

    120. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Simon Curran.

      This graphic shows you where ‘none of the above’, ie ‘didnae vote’, had their most stunning successes.

      ttps://i.imgur.com/0LzHa22.jpg

    121. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Sorry, that should be,

      https://i.imgur.com/0LzHa22.jpg

    122. Harry McAye says:

      nodrop: Almost finished reading “London Calling” by G A Ponsonby about BBC Bias during the referendum campaign. In my opinion if the Scottish voters were made aware of the contents of that book they would be clamouring for Independence tomorrow. Fantastic research, well documented and a great topical narrative of what actually happened. It should be compulsory reading for all.
      ———

      Just started reading it today and finished the first two chapters. Those two alone would have the uninitiated clamouring for independence! I wonder if crowd funding a billboard campaign would be realistic for this book? There was a one day only ad for it in The National but that is preaching to the converted. The http://www.inform-scotland.org site looks like it may be useful in this regard.

      Some of you may have seen the Australian current affairs show 60 Minutes online tonight and their investigation into the Westminster paedophile scandal. One very interesting moment was when the reporter showed one abuse victim photographs of politicians and asked her if she was abused by any of them. One of the ones she positvely identified as an abuser was, said the reporter, a senior figure in his party “until as recently as the last election result”. That can surely only mean he was high up in either Labour or the Lib Dems. Could this man be a Scot? The abuse happened over 20 years ago so Ed Balls can be ruled out by age.

    123. cearc says:

      Whoops just put a Youtube link without removing the http, sorry Stu,

      The 60 mins programme is also on Youtube at:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGwTeR8Y8Qw

      It was on exaronews.com, they helped make it but their site ‘died an hour or so ago. Just blank white pages now, no message.

    124. call me dave says:

      Because your worth it and it’s Glasgow labour’s way.

      https://archive.is/nQ6vy

      PS
      Aye the unwanted flag at the tennis.. the BBC coverage of the golf on my lap top at the same game.

      The skirl of the pipes heard and a few minutes later roving tv coverage of a piper with his collection bunnet somewhere up the main street of St Andrews with the usual comments. 🙁

      Good old Auntie and Sue Barker!

    125. Still Positive. says:

      Harry MacAye @ 10.31

      I watched that report earlier this evening and wondered who the person was “as recently as the last election”. Could it have been someone who stepped down rather than losing a seat?

      Probably far too many either stepped down or were voted out to narrow it down unfortunately.

      It was sickening stuff.

    126. Marco McGinty says:

      I despise what the Labour Party has become, but I can only hope that Jeremy Corbyn is elected as their next leader, and he does move them to the left.

      Now, I realise that a lot of people on here have openly stated that they don’t care about the Labour Party’s, or of its future, but a left-leaning Labour Party will be many people’s only hope in the near future.

      Like it or not, the SNP as a party cannot win (or have much influence) at Westminster, and independence is still a good few years away. If the Labour Party continues on its current trajectory to the right, it will only mean Tory government after Tory government, and it is perfectly feasible that we could witness decades of Tory dictatorship.

      So, for those that have stated that they don’t care about the Labour situation, or they couldn’t care less if Labour ended up destroyed, or they’re worried about a left-leaning Labour Party taking votes from the SNP, please spare a thought for those that are worse off than yourselves, and for those individuals and families that will have to take hit after hit under successive Tory governments.

      There was much criticism of the “I’m alright Jack brigade” of the No campaign/Better Together, yet I’m reading similar messages on this page. That’s a sure fire way to piss people off.

      Have some consideration, people.

    127. http://www.commentisntfree.com/into-the-darkness/

      My thoughts on the Labour meltdown over Corbyn.

      Very similar to those of Stuart.

    128. ben madigan says:

      the Mirror has done its best to spread the message from the australian TV programme, also citing a link and video from exaro news.
      It’s still working so hurry up if you want to view it – not all together now – one at a time – we don’t want to crash the site.
      Best to all
      Ben
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/who-murdered-and-raped-british-children-part-2/

    129. HandandShrimp says:

      The Isolator

      Fair point but it is like watching a slow motion train crash. Horrific but compelling.

      On other matters like the 60 minute programme, which I have yet to watch, it would appear that the crap is quite close to the fan. One wonders if by sleight of hand the establishment will cover things up yet again or whether things really are about to come apart at the seams.

    130. Tackety Beets says:

      Hi JK ,
      Aye , it was my intention to watch AM today , switched on to a picture o Union flags .

      A couldna thole it !

      I’m sorry now , would have loved to see AM drop the flag , too polite to stamp it into the ground I suppose .

    131. cearc says:

      Exaro’s back.

      Esther Baker and others’ allegation, was against a Libdem MP.

      http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5571/three-women-name-former-liberal-democrat-mp-as-paedophile

      Due to speculation she later stated that it was NOT Charles Kennedy,

    132. Clootie says:

      To those worried about the advice being given to the Red Tories from this site…don’t worry as we all know that they will not listen or act on one word of it.

      They have a cunning plan tand are sticking to it. This involes Liz Kendal as “Maggie Thatcher 2”

    133. Alan Mackintosh says:

      The Moidart, it was the Project for the new american century, PNAC. They got their new pearl harbour, the twin towers… which led to invasion of Afghan and Iran, roll out of new powers at home, huge funding increase for defense [sic] spending.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

    134. Neil Anderson says:

      I’m glad you referred to Piers Morgan OR a Teletubby, or I may have become confused between the two.

      Of course he is in fact a Muppet.

    135. Apologies if this following link was posted earlier on here and as this thread is about Labour no doubt our ‘Public’ service broadcaster will be over this like a feather duster in regrinding valves.

      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/who-murdered-and-raped-british-children-part-2/

    136. handclapping says:

      @Marco McGinty
      The “Labour” party has moved so far right that they deserve the capitalist end point of creative destruction. They should be encouraged to die to create space for an English left party with the same program as the SNP.

      That new English left party would attract back many of those who presently dont vote in England as they see no hope for them in Westminster politics but would be enthused by the possibility for change that they could make in alliance with the SNP.

      No longer would the choice be Tory or Tory-lite and even the vote of the less well off would become something of worth to them again. Its up to the English in England but I’d jump at it. The conditions for a successful start are all there and I’m pretty sure the SNP would help if asked

    137. The Moidart says:

      Cearc… But he did vote against the information on paedophile mps becoming public unless I’m mistaken….

    138. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T

      The Independence March in Glasgow on 1st August I see has sensibly put back its muster time at Kelvingrove Park to 11 am with a 11.30 move off (finishing Glasgow Green 12.45).

      Any information on how it is building up anybody?

    139. Democracy Reborn says:

      Stu, I read that academic article you re-tweeted which supports the thesis in your post.

      2 simple points stood out from the authors’ analysis of UK Labour, the German SPD and Swedish Social Democrats:

      1. UK Labour has moved further to the right more than any other Euorpean social democratic party in the last 30 years

      2. Whilst ‘moderation’ and advocating/pursuing ‘catch-all’ policies have short-term electoral benefits for social democratic parties, they are damaging to those parties ability to function successfully as long term political organisations

      Wonder what Daisley, Hothersall, Farquharson et al make of all that?

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      During today’s Radio Scotland’s rolling sports coverage, they went to the Davis Cup for an update – the reporter had to raise his voice to be heard over a blaring operatic version of ‘Jerusalem’ being played in the arena.

      Probably an unfortunate coincidence, but it’s telling to get a snippet of what audiences are being exposed to at these gigs – ‘Jerusalem’ is most commonly associated with the Last Night at The Proms, when properly tanked-up Hooray-Henrys and their burds give it laldy, wearing paper UJ bowlers and waving wee similarly patterned flags.

      ‘Jerusalem’ was written by William Blake, a great free-thinker and anti-establishmentarian/abolitionist who once narrowly escaped imprisonment for ‘sedition’ and would surely condemn the abuse of his work for crass British State propaganda.

    141. The Moidart says:

      Alan… Of course it was. Its been a while since I looked into it. Thank you. Syria. Then Iran. Then Africa. Blair has already done the groundwork over there. He’s made millions as a “peace envoy ” scumbag!!!!

    142. Tackety Beets says:

      Cearac thanks , you are on the ball .

    143. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Alan Mackintosh (11.02) –

      Alan, was it yourself who put up that great link to Danny Alexander doing a gig in his local constituency, many months before the referendum?

      Just wondering. I’ve tried to find that link a few times as my ‘favourites’ were all lost ages ago, and it was definitely in there. Not hassling you for a re-link, but just wondering if it’s yer good self I have to thank for it – I remember watching that footage and being utterly convinced, long before it was finished, that he would be losing his seat further down the line.

      There was also the involvement of that strange, awkward woman (his agent?) which made it stick in the memory. Seems ages ago now, but it’s all still very vivid.

      It does seem a bit cruel to be banging on about it now, after the dust should’ve settled, but Danny Alexander was top of my personal bucket-list, and I was jumping around the room when the result came in. Mind you, I didn’t get to see actual footage of it for some time. Made it all the sweeter when I did – these people have to realise that a price must be paid for their despicable, craven posturing. Then, perhaps, they’ll think twice before being seduced by the bright lights and temptations on offer in the WM cesspit.

    144. HandandShrimp says:

      cearc

      He probably heard Sue Barker relishing the thought of England vs Australia and thought “Ooops wrong flag”.

      😉

    145. Croompenstein says:

      @Ian – And Jerusalem is used as the national anthem for England during the Commonwealth Games…

    146. Chic McGregor says:

      I think Kinnock was the first to believe that middle and upper had to be catered for for Labour to win, just that they were not willing to accept him.

    147. Chic McGregor says:

      I think the next Labour government will be by a new party which resurrects old Labour values. Wonder what it will be called?

    148. heedtracker says:

      UKOK prances joyfully further and further right.

      https://archive.is/doo7u

      More rancid Graun specious con, Osborne doesn’t even need to bother “calling for Labour” to boost up tory boy teamGB.

    149. Grouse Beater says:

      Some late thoughts on Mhairi Black and Jeremy Corbyn:
      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/goldilocks-and-the-insurgency-bears/

    150. Marco McGinty says:

      @handclapping says:
      But a new left-leaning English party could be years away from formation, never mind having any influence at Westminster, hence the urgency for Jeremy Corbyn, or someone like him, to lead the Labour Party back to the left, giving some hope to the disenfranchised, the poor, or the less fortunate.

      The absolute death of Labour, will only result in many more people becoming destitute, with the likelihood that some will be forced to take their own lives. More and more families will become wholly reliant on foodbank provisions, more and more children will live in abject poverty, and there will be more and more attacks on health and welfare. That’s not something I would like to see in Scotland, or anywhere else for that matter, so I will take this opportunity to remind you of Mhairi Black’s maiden speech.

      Perhaps you, and others, should go back and have a listen to her speech. Hoping for the demise of the Labour Party, is invariably imposing decades of Tory governments on the people, and is akin to turning your back on those that need help the most.

    151. Chic McGregor says:

      @ianB
      He would probably more likely write of ‘the dark satanic malls’ these days.

    152. dakk says:

      The Queen doing seig heils as a wee lassie , Drew Murray scrunching up and trashing the butchers apron ,and England getting hammered at cricket . What a great weekend of sport !

      And Stuart , gonnae shut up aboot Labour 🙂

    153. Rock says:

      Blair was heavily promoted by the Observer during his leadership bid.

      The Observer has always been a Tory publication pretending to be Liberal.

      The Guardian too showed its true colours during the referendum campaign.

      There is nothing Labour left in the Labour Party.

      The likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Dennis Skinner should have left Labour after the illegal war and set up a socialist party.

      Just as the UK is rotten to the core, the Labour Party is also rotten to the core.

      It is impossible to change either from inside.

      Scotland needs to make a clean cut and get out of it completely by 2018 at the latest.

      Talk of FFA or Devo Max, which we won’t get anyway, is just setting back our cause.

    154. Craig MacInnes says:

      The real enemy of Scotland is BBC Scotland. Without it the unionist lies would not have worked, the Labour Party would have disappeared long ago and we might be looking towards an independent country instead of living under the most repressive regime we alive today have ever known.

      Why on earth is the State broadcaster devoting prime time to the debate between two nonentities for the “leadership” of a non existent-in-fact political party? The answer is simple. The BBC in Scotland and the Labour Party in Scotland CANNOT exist without each other. They are one and the same!

    155. Rock says:

      Craig MacInnes,

      “The real enemy of Scotland is BBC Scotland.”

      This is what I had posted a couple of days ago:

      “Pravda GB is Scotland’s enemy number one.

      We can only have freedom and a democratic and fair society over its dead body.”

    156. Ken500 says:

      The EU and the Eurozone are two separate entities. The Eurozone has bailed out Greece and given it a long term loan (with lower interest rates?). It is now up to Greece to manage it’s economy with a necessary different regime. Good could come out of bad.

      The Labour Party are financed by Tory bankers
      The SNP is funded by it’s members
      Different entities.

      Labour/Unionists call for House to go. They appointed him, to cover up their criminality and to waste police time and money.

    157. john king says:

      I take no pleasure in saying I saw through those people (Labour) in the early 70’s,
      their grandiose talk of a socialist society belied the reality that they were party of and for the establishment since the time of Harold Wilson who talked the talk but the party never walked the walk!

    158. Almannysbunnet says:

      “Dear Mhairi, you’re a Nationalist, espousing Nationalism. Extend the hand of friendship? Opposed parties we are and opposed parties we shall stay.” Tom Blenkinsop labour MP for Middlesborough South and Cleveland in response to Mhairi Black’s maiden speech.

      If they could, Labour would crush the SNP and Scotland along with it. They have also chosen not to be the voice of the poor and disadvantaged in England. It’s just scandalous that so many have to suffer while they wring their hands and worry about their own hides. You’ll see no crocodile tears from me at their self inflicted demise.

    159. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Tinto Cheil I caught up with the posts last night

      Scottish Garabaldi indeed , noo you ur tackin the bisquit urent you. Onnyhows am no baldi, jist thin oan the tap lol.

      @ BrianDTT Send me ah couple doz Forfar bridies N Phees,feking meals here ur MINGIN,an you hiv tae buy ah key tae power the fridge, 4 star ma arse.

    160. Ken500 says:

      Hague buried the Child Abuse Report (Leon Brittan) in the 1980’s and was accused of misconduct. Hague stepped down at the GE.

      Westminster is a cess pit of child abusers,killers, liars and thieves. It makes people sick. It is just disgusting.

    161. Stoker says:

      John King said Labour “never walked the walk!”

      Quite impossible for any intellectually crippled party to achieve.

    162. Ken500 says:

      A few euros for the internet.

    163. Name (required) says:

      https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7876476672/hC3D38FB9/
      for use in the Scottish labour leaders (sic)results

    164. Sinky says:

      O/T Ian Murray’s cheerleader David Maddox still on about SNP Cybernats in Hootsman. Must be a slow Newsday if a so called quality newspaper prints this nonsense in preference to real news.

      https://archive.is/4GiCN

    165. Helena Brown says:

      Marco McGinty @12.20am A wee word regarding the demise or the wishing for of the demise of the Labour Party. We are not our brothers keeper. Tried that for decade’s and those to the South continue to either vote Tory or as Stuart has shown, stopped voting

    166. Macart says:

      @Almannysbunnet

      Aye well, Blenkinsop is on the right track I suppose in a way.

      Its certainly hard to find any socialist values in parliamentary Labour, but conversely there’s a fair few influencing Scottish politics at the moment. 🙂

      Who knew?

    167. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Hi Ian, yes twas I who posted the link to Danny. The woman wasnt his agent, she is the local councillor for Culloden/Ardersier (a few miles east of Inverness), who was incredibly patronising. She is the Libdum candidate for Holyrood as well.

      Here you go…enjoy!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5KIWz4w0lQ

    168. Edward says:

      Sinky

      If you haven’t realised , both David Maddox and Tom Peterkin in the Scotsman ARE Labour attack dogs that are fed by Labour.

      Neither will say anything bad about Labour, both will ‘write’ articles attacking the SNP from all angles.
      I would go as far to surmise that both are paid up party members of Labour, due to their very slanted view of the political world

    169. Tinto Chiel says:

      Morning Mr Anderson, from dampest Lanarkshire.

      Better a Garibaldi than a Scottish Snowball in all that heat. And watch those bottles of Sammy Magill before lunch time.

      Don’t forget on your return to spark insurrection in Sardinia and Corsica. Have a great holiday.

      @Marco McGinty. Woke up this morning to hear Harriet Harman on Radio 4 saying she wanted her MPs to abstain on the Welfare Bill. Who’s turning their backs on the people down south now? It’s up to them to build their own Left party by following our example.

      The existing Labour Party refuses to cooperate with the 56 and is totally untrustworthy, a zombie party with no sense of direction. And the people who loathe it most are former members who feel betrayed by its total lack of socialist principle.

    170. Grouse Beater says:

      Mhairi Black has a lot in common with Jeremy Corbyn. They are both traditional socialists. And like Mhairi, Corbyn offers hope and optimism, the enemies of neo-liberalism.

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/goldilocks-and-the-insurgency-bears/

    171. jackie g says:

      Yes i heard that Harriet was asking party to abstain from the vote.

      Also heard that there was a revolt against Harriet and her proposal and thought good about time.

      Then realised it was the Labour party and that i refuse to believe anything that they say ever…

      Then Gideon steps up and agrees she is doing the right thing Conclusion? its a ploy there are all a shower of Bst*****

      🙁

    172. Clydebuilt says:

      O/T. Re the golf at St. Andrews. Paul Lawrie had a frustrating day , particularly on the last 4 / 5 holes…..at one stage complaining of someone working a camera whilst taking his shot………. He started off the day in the mix at 3rd. Finally dropping 2 shots on the 17th. ……. Would the “establishment” be best pleased for a Scotsman to win the Open. ….. Just wondering!

    173. Chic McGregor says:

      @effigy

      “I hope that nobody mistakes Dim for Dobby in Lord of the Rings,
      as it was shot in New Zealand.”

      I think you meant ‘Gollum’, or are you Putin us on?

    174. Ken500 says:

      The UK MSM is all right wing, The BBC is controlled by Westminster. All the MSM is right wing.
      Thatcher illegally saw to that, lied and kept it secret. (Harold Evans) The UK MSM all tax evade. They support the right wing (politically), because the right wing political Parties allow them to tax evade on profits, otherwise they would go out of business. No one buys the nonsense.

      Murdoch is attacking the Establishment who are cutting him out of any right wing crave up of the BBC. Westminster knows that would be unpopular. Murdoch hates the Establishment (phone hacking etc), the Royals. The Royals hate the Press. Westminster used ‘D’ notices, the Official Secrets Act to cover up their criminality.

      There is no democracy in Britain without a free and balanced Press. People have to get their information on the internet and from abroad to get accurate information.

      If Scotland doesn’t vote to leave this destructive, criminal Union, there is no tomorrow.

    175. While this site is invaluable in exposing the “tactics” of all our opponents, be it politicians or the M.S.M, why are some of our best commentators offering them good advice?
      Since the media are beyond redemtion, I refer in particular to unionist supporters of various political parties, in the main, the Labour Party.
      If the autobiograpy of Ramsay MacDonald I am reading is accurate, then even the first Labour Prime Minister of the U.K abandoned his socialist principles in the early 1920s,eventually being expelled from the Party some ten years later for entering into a coalition Government with the Conservatives.
      So, with the latest Harriet Harman pronouncement, what’s new under the sun?
      While the original founding fathers of the Labour Party had high ideals, and espoused genuine concern for the most vulnerable in society, and , in the main, tried to improve the lot of real people, for many, many years, they have been pale imitations of the likes of Hardie, and his socialist ideals.
      Personally, I don’t think they will change their chosen mantra, at least not in the near future, and my hope is that they will become even more irrelevant that they are at present.

    176. Tinto Chiel says:

      And further to the title of this thread, we are being told today on Radio 4 that the Scottish R is disappearing. All part of the Imperial Britishing Project: no border, no differences. Oh, and Royalist Lacey telling us “our monarchy” goes back to Alfred The Great.

      Obviously haven’t heard me say rancid crap.

    177. sensibledave says:

      Dear Rev

      You wrote “We can sum those reasons up in four words: these people are Tories. Anti-immigration, anti-welfare, anti-public sector, anti-unions.”

      Really? Come on Rev. You write a very interesting, intelligent piece where you attempt to analyse and understand how and why people voted – and then it all collapses under partisan and insulting, wrong headed, social stereotyping.

      You are making exactly the same mistake that labour made – i.e. you have decided that if you want controlled immigration then you are anti-immigratiom. If you want welfare paid to those that need it, and not those that don’t – then you are anti-welfare and if you want a public sector that is smaller and more efficient then you are anti-public sector, etc.

      You have wrapped up normal, average, working class values and decided that they are all bad.

      Just taking one of your points (because I will be writing all day otherwise), none, I repeat none, of the major political parties (including the SNP) in the UK believe in an “open door” policy on immigration. Every party has a view on some sort of control of numbers and would like to draw the line somewhere. To suggest that someone is “anti-immigration” just because they might draw the line in a slightly different place to you- is just silly, wrong and, frankly, insulting. This is because the next stage in your logic is to label people that want the line in a different place, as racists – and on that basis, every party is racist. The Greenies want a sort of “open Door” whilst the SNP doesn’t – does that make the SNP a racist party?

      Later in your article, you wrote “How do you begin to rationalise that? How do you even attempt to reason with a party planning to hold a democratic election and then to instantly overturn the result if it doesn’t like it?”

      Post referendum, I know how you feel.

    178. sensibledave says:

      Clydebuilt 9:16 am

      You wrote “Would the “establishment” be best pleased for a Scotsman to win the Open. ….. Just wondering!

      You need to get out more! Your paranoia has now got you “wondering” about who “The Establishment” wants to win, or not win, The Open? Really?

      Just think back to London 2012. Think back to the Velodrome. Think back to crowd baying for Chris Hoy. Grow up.

    179. Robert Kerr says:

      @sensibledave

      You mean SIR Chris Hoy of course!

    180. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says: You have wrapped up normal, average, working class values and decided that they are all bad.

      News for you Dave, means testing is not a working class value, Xenophobia is not a working class value, racism is not a working class value, and the destruction of public services is not a working class value.

      As for immigration, the UK is part of the freedom of movement in the EU, and that applies to all EU states. Expecting partners to put up with an unbalanced deal is also not a working class value.

      Still a long way from sensible dave.

    181. Toobs says:

      You’ve rendered Sensible Dave almost insensible.. .

    182. heedtracker says:

      @ sensibledave EU membership means all red.blue toryboy anti immigration bleh is nothing more than usual tory England rule britannia tub thumping.

      Its interesting that you can’t even begin tolerate any descension, deviation from BBC hard core right wing propaganda Dave, such as WoS.

      Unless our English imperial masters really planning Brexit Dave…

      Then its goodbye England’s right to rule Scotland.

    183. Ken500 says:

      There must be a way the Scottish Gov could find some enterprise money to help an independent, impartial radio/ TV channel. There is a Market/business case for one. Commercial or community.

    184. Inkall says:

      I’ve long been of the opinion that I would support the SNP until independence was achieved and then back a more “left” party.

      A true Labour party would fit that bill but there is no chance of that party being formed out of the current Labour party, it would need to split itself away from the New Labour lot.

    185. Jim says:

      O/T but nice of the sun

    186. Jim says:

      O/T but in a story about the arrest of an ex army sniper for fighting against isis and training Kurdish troops, they actually named the guy involved.

      A sarcastic well done to the sun for putting this man and his family in danger from extremists for the crime of having the audacity to try and do his bit in the fight against terrorism.

    187. heedtracker says:

      In short, New Labour’s victories were primarily the result of the Conservatives being in a catastrophic state during Blair’s rule, exhausted by almost 20 years of power and scandal and infighting about Europe. With William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard at the head of a shattered opposition, Labour could have won those elections with Piers Morgan or a Teletubby in charge.

      @sensibledave says: Its easy to see why the above would get up toryboy noses Dave.

      eg

      This morn BBC r4 news, three hours of upper class England boosting itself to tory England heaven as per, then 45 mins of Nigel Lawson lying through his teeth, Nigel loves the UK so much he lives in France, Thatch really is a saint, global warming and the science behind it is all wrong because its not economics, followed by the travails of rich gay Englishman from London and his move to San Francisco, followed by Woman’s hour and their shock BBC poll that finds the UK is the happiest country in the world.

      I shit you not.

    188. sensibledave says:

      Quelle Surprise! Too many to respond to in any detail.

      @ Robert Kerr – didn’t think you would be so hung up on “Establshment” nomenclature. When I met Mr Hoy, actually, he
      insisted I call him Chris.

      @ Anargach – You Wrote (my responses in brackets) “News for you Dave, means testing is not a working class value (yes it is), Xenophobia is not a working class value (agreed), racism is not a working class value (agreed), and the destruction of public services is not a working class value (agreed).

      @ Heedtracker – normal unintelligable xenophobic, anti-english rubbish Heedy.

    189. Ken500 says:

      Scotland (pro rata) won the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games

    190. heedtracker says:

      @ Heedtracker – normal unintelligable xenophobic, anti-english rubbish Heedy.

      Nice. All I did was try to precis the content of the rule Britannia rules the BBC UKOK this morning from 6am Dave.

      Honking BBC r4 toryboy news, lashings of war, cricket sad, David Cameron sorts it out, Nigel Lawson hagiography, gay bloke from Regents Park, so very rich but so very troubled, and Woman’s hour breathless, posh, exciting polls show BBC land happiest in the world, UKOK.

      Why that’s anti English, you’d have to be a tory boy to know.

      Brexit Dave, that’ll sort out johnny foreigner, purr purr, sieg heil.

    191. Roger says:

      Bloody cybernats! Why can’t they behave decently like loyal unionists?

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/jan/10/northernireland.race

    192. sensibledave says:

      To All

      Just some stats for you all to consider:

      1. Population per Sq Kilometer (Office of National Statistics – mid 2013):

      England – 413
      Wales – 149
      NI – 135
      Scotland – 68

      2. Immigrant population by region (University of Oxford):

      London – 36.20%
      South East – 13.73%
      Scotland – 4.42%

      …. us Torys in London and the South East are just awful, anti-immigration, non-integrated racists aren’t we.

    193. Ken500 says:

      Scotland top of the tables

      Total taxes raised in Scotland £54Billion. (1/12 of UK pop) Total taxes raised in the UK £466Billion.

      Scotland spends £30Billion Block Grant £16Billion (UK) pensions/benefits, £4Billion Defence. – £4Billion.

      The rest of the UK raises £412Billion (divide by 11 (pop) £39Billion. Scotland raises £54Billion.

      The rest of the UK borrows and spends £90Billion more £412Billion + £90Billon = £504Billion. Then tries to adds £9Billion of their debt on to Scotland’s account. Lying Fraudulent Accounting.

      Scottish Oil sector taxed at 55%. (Westminster) People are losing their jobs. Multinationals in the UK making vast profits are tax evading through the City of London. (Westminster fraud) Westminster not obeying and enforcing the Law. Operating two different tax regime in Scotland and the rest of the UK. Against the terms of the Act of Union. Making Scotland which should be richer (pro rata) poorer and the rest of the UK which should be poorer (pro rata) richer. There are 1 in 39 $millionaires’ in London. Westminster has illegally and secretly stolen every resource they could out of Scotland. Westminster is a criminal organisation, pay your taxes.

    194. Helena Brown says:

      Heedtracker, Sensible is anything but, poor soul he is wedded to the Tory Party and of course dear old Auntie does everything he wants to see. What is not so apparent is the ability for Dave to put the Scottish Boot on his foot and see how it feels when everything you hold dear is denigrated at every turn. At least he is English? So we can at least see where he is coming from. Those Proud Scots Butts who also enjoy Auntie Beeb are the ones who do my head in.
      By the way agreed with what you said, we in our house think they are like the old soldiers whose only excitement was the war and if you like BBC is only showing the end of Empire and what is so frightening for our Maisters, the end of their influence in the world so they hang in with the biggest Bully, after all after all the years of being the big Bully they miss it.

    195. Helena Brown says:

      Dear Senseless Dave, you keep going on about London everywhere that of course you have more immigrants than some of your population think you can handle. You keep all the business to yourselves, you spend UK money on your pet projects, so you are overloaded. We are not, so what, but our immigrants feel welcome here, I know, the last taxi driver I had came from Romania, lovely guy. Poles have always felt at home here, many stayed after the last World War (I put this in so you would know which one, there have been so many. Personally I was fourteen last time I put a foot in London and I intend to keep the dust of that place off my feet forever, you can keep it.

    196. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says:
      2. Immigrant population by region
      Scotland – 4.42%

      Lets just clarify that;

      2011 Scotland Census –
      83% of the population were born in Scotland.
      Total Immigration 17%.

      93% of the population were born within the UK
      Immigration from outside UK 7%.

      Perhaps your 4% you quote is the ethnic minorities group.
      Very dodgy ground there ‘sensible’ Dave.

    197. Ken500 says:

      Osbourne is criminally lying, printing money (BoE) and increasing the debt. £1.5Trn. Westminster has wasted Taxpayers money on Trideht/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud to make themselves and their associates fraudulently and illegally wealthy. Illegally misused £Billions of public money, sanctioned and starved people to death at home and abroad.

      Now promoting Nuclear for Iran and increase weaponry for Israel, to make themselves and their associates even wealthier. Illegally arming the world and causing more conflict in the Middle East. Sanctioning people and starving them to death. Suporting apartheid States and absolute, despot monarchies. .

      The US/UK armed, funded and supported Daesh to fight in Syria. Now they want to attack them. Westminster has been causing havoc, poverty and destruction in the Middle East for over 100 years. The Balfour Agreement 1917 A secret agreement. Gladstone, Lord Rothchilds and Lord Balfour. Once the German submarine, military threat in the Dardanelles subsided, agreement with the Ottomans declined. Support was given for a Jewish State on Palestinian territory.

    198. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Helena Brown –

      With respect, you’ve got it wrong in your post @ 11.27 am.

      I reckon sensibledave is, in fact, good old OBE from Woking, forced to moonlight on here since the new-look Herald website is curtailing comment on so-many contentious issues.

      Speaking of the Herald, I saw a piece this morning, written by the Labour Mayor of Liverpool, which is a hymn of praise to old BJ Mathieson. Nae wonder Labour is struggling.

    199. Ken500 says:

      RT is giving coverage of evil EVEL, ignored by the BBC

    200. gordoz says:

      Anybody wondering why the final day of the golf is not on TV

      should know that an important BBC/Labour hustings is being covered by resources today 🙂

      Highlights of the Open final day to follow where you are later !

    201. heedtracker says:

      Helena Brown, well its same story across god knows how many countries England decided they owned and then couldnt stop any of them from saying thanks very much England but bye bye.

      But right now its hard right British/English nationalism in action. English nat/toryboy Dave’s rage at WoS for stating what happened under St Thatch, how it all collapsed is fine but it is what actually happened in teamGB a life time ago.

      English or Scots, red or blue Toryboys don’t like descension do they.

      Brexit is the only way toryboy BBC England can take control of their borders no matter how much they detest immigrants. But can our imperial toryboy masters really grow the stones big enough to say bye bye EU, we don’t need you and your high quality slave wage workforce, coming over here, working, paying our taxes, paying rent we profiteer and so on?

      Probably not but maybe sensible dave will explain what the final solution is.

      Again, purr purr, seig heil.

    202. sensibledave says:

      @ Helena

      … I’m surprised at you Helena. I keep going on about London? What, as opposed to Wingers banging about where they live?

      The difference Helena, is that you do not see me negatively stereotyping populations – just because of where they live. I think there is a word for that.

      You also wrote ” ….. I was fourteen last time I put a foot in London and I intend to keep the dust of that place off my feet forever, you can keep it.”

      Why is that Helena? Is it because you don’t like the people of London? You don’t like our cosmopolitan, integrated society? You don’t like it because it is in England? Which is it Helena?

    203. @sensibledave
      The immigrant figure for Scotland will not include the over 500,000 English who have emigrated up here.

      And like all immigrants who have abandoned/fled/forsaken their country of birth I wish them all a good Scottish Welcome.

    204. Toobs says:

      @sensi-dave,

      London is a horrible place largely populated with horrible people. Not only that the people who are there are brainwashed into thinking its great. It smells like a toilet, everything is expensive you spend your time being shoved around by people and the whole attitude of the place stinks. I quite often have to visit London and my sentiments are not anti anything other than I don’t like that city. .

    205. heedtracker says:

      Why is that Helena? Is it because you don’t like the people of London? You don’t like our cosmopolitan, integrated society? You don’t like it because it is in England? Which is it Helena?

      Bit of a UKOK conundrum there Sensible?

      Far too many Johnny foreigner types piling into teamGB/London but loyal Scottish types jolly welcome eh.

      Ah the glories of British Bettertogether nationalism fart along Daily Heil/BBC style.

    206. sensibledave says:

      Anagach 11:36 am

      … profuse apologies Anargach. I misinterpreted what Table 1 at :http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migrants-uk-overview – was demonstrating.

      I can’t actually find a breakdown by region, but the narrative just before the table includes the phrase “In 2013, about half of the UK’s foreign-born population were in London (36.2%) and the South East (13.7%).

      This means that over 50% of all UK immigrants live in London and the South East – and that is the point. We do not have a problem with immigration in London – we only have a problem with the numbers each year.

      Last year 350,000 was the net migration figure for the UK, I believe (getting nervous quoting stats now). I don’t know, and I can’t find out, the demographics of the immigrants in terms of “family units” – i.e. I don’t know how many new “dwellings” are needed to house those family units. I don’t know how many children per “family unit” that is, etc.

      Given that I dont know, I will do the maths on the basis that a “family unit” is say, two adults and one child (please advise me if you know the “actuals”).

      Based upon those demographics: –

      1. 350k immigrants need over 100,000 new dwellings to exist – when they get here.

      2. About 117,000 additional school places are needed. If say, the average school size is 500 – then this relates to 234 new schools need to have been built to educate just the additional new pupils arrived in that year. The building of those schools needed to have been started at least a year ago.

      3. Doctors, Nurses, Hospitals, GPs, car parking spaces, Jobs, etc, all need to be created to deal with whatever population level you are working too or planning for.

      Summary – To have finite resources available (i.e. dwellings that exist now, school places that exist now, etc) – with a rising, indeterminate, unplanned, uncontrolled population – can only mean there is a constant mismatch between what is available and what is required. My guess at the demographics of family units is most certainly wrong. However, if the average family unit is less than 3 – then we need more dwellings to exist. If the average family unit includes 2 children rather than one – then we need twice as many new school places, etc.

      That is the only problem Anargach.

      Have a plan – work to the plan. Its not rocket science – and it certainly isn’t racism.

      And, whichever way you want to look at it, down here in London and the South East – we have a damned good record of managing despite the unplanned nature of our immigration. So to any Wingers that are not intelligent enough to understand that – there isn’t much else I can say to you.

    207. heedtracker says:

      Its just the continuing process of removing the opposition. Just ask Red Ken Livingstone and the Greater London Council. They took on the blessed Snatcher Thatcher toryboys and they were gone in a flash.

      Tory boys loved her for it

      http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/simon-jenkins-thatcher-turned-an-ailing-london-into-todays-global-metropolis-8576785.html

      “A London that had been ailing when Thatcher came to power is still at its zenith as a global metropolis.”

      Watch your step Holyrood sweaties.

    208. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 20 July, 2015 at 12:25 pm:

      ” …Far too many Johnny foreigner types piling into teamGB/London but loyal Scottish types jolly welcome eh.<"

      There’s not much wrong with London, heedtracker, it is a bit expensive if you shop or get accommodation in the wrong areas. I don’t even mind most of the foreigners in the place. It is those foreign, (to me), Englanders that lower the tone of the place and most of them cannot even speak intelligible English.

      What between the Cockneys and the Estuary English contorted vowels I had to ask six Londoners for directions before I managed to find one I could understand. She was an oriental young lady. I could understand her perfectly.

      She was Japanese and spoke perfect English and knew London well as she had come to England as a 4 year old. By the way, she wasn’t too impressed by the Londoners either.

    209. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says:
      20 July, 2015 at 12:42 pm

      Wow what a long post to try and say you are not racist.

      Lets boil it down – you claim your issue with immigration is in stresses the state provision of services – really nothing to do with colour or race – well lets give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

      Scotland has 17% immigrants – people who arrive who were not born there, that is more than England and a considerable stress on services, housing, health, schools, and guess what – its an issue, but dealt with tolerance. Nothing like the outpouring of Xenophobia and hatred we see in the London based press and political circles.

      Also your a basic fail on resources being finite, that went out with the malthusian basics.

    210. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher established tax havens. £Trillions have been evaded through the City of London.

    211. Kenny Ritchie says:

      This article merely highlights how right-wing England has become. Immaterial to whom becomes the next party leader, they will never be PM. We voted NO last year, and have been consigned to decades of Toryism. 1979 all over again. This is why the next independence referendum will not be held for at least another 15 years. EU exit, successive Tory governments, the rise of English nationalism, etc. The chasm between England and Scotland will continue to widen and where it’ll be exploited by the SNP to secure a 60%+ YES vote.

    212. Ken500 says:

      The immigration figures are manipulated to include foreign students passing through. Foreign students bring money into the UK. Immigrants bring prosperity into the UK and grow the UK economy.

      Westminster foreign policies cause migration in Europe. Illegal wars cause death, poverty and deprivation in the Middle East causing migration. UK/US and France are responsible.

      Scotland and England have exactly the same immigration 10% without which the UK economy would not grow. There are exactly the same no of Brits in Europe and abroad.

      Britain is more than 3/4 empty.

    213. sensibledave says:

      Anagach

      … based upon your original response and your research of facts – I credited you as being someone that it was possible to debate with rather than the ya boo sucks stuff. Hence the fuller response from me.

      You wrote “Also your a basic fail on resources being finite, that went out with the malthusian basics”

      I know nothing of malthusian basics and don’t need to. Today, July 20th, there are, factually, a finite number of dwellings that are empty. Today, schools have their budgets and their class size guidelines. There are a finite number of jobs advertised. There are x many nurses and doctors working today.

      Economics and political theories do not produce 10,000 new dwellings this month just because 30,000 immigrants have arrived in the UK this month. Remember Anargarch, its not rocket science, its not malthusian basics – its real! Where are the 10,000 new dwellings required if 30,000 migrants arrive this month? Which schools have the spaces to take 10,000 unplanned immigrant children this month? These are not theoretical questions.

      Oh and BTW, let me just assume your plan is, indeed, to build 200 odd new schools this year just to take next year’s additional kids, where are you going to build them? Do you spread them around the UK and then force immigrants to move to where you have built the schools or do you follow the existing trends and build them where current trends suggest they will move to – thus encouraging further disproportionate demographics? Which piece of social engineering do you favour? Again, not a theoretical question.

    214. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher increased the wealth of London S/E on illegally and secretly obtained Scottish resources. Thatcher was a crook, who broke UK/EU/Ihternational Laws and broke the Ministerial Code to make herself and her associates illegally wealthy. Thatcher was the worst politician ever. Thatcher should have been put in jail. Thatcher condoned child abuse and murder. Used the Official Secrets Acts to keep it secret. Thatcher broke every UK Laws.

    215. sensibledave says:

      @ Ken 500

      “secretly obtained Scottish resources”?

      Go on then, you have got me hooked, which resources did she obtain and how much of a secret is it – given that you seem to know about it?

    216. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 1.20

      Robert, You wrote “It is those foreign, (to me), Englanders that lower the tone of the place and most of them cannot even speak intelligible English.

      Please explain to me why you think the quote above is acceptable and not just awful, but illuminating, racism. I think you have become so disengaged from polite society that you no longer know where the lines are – let alone the law.

      For someone who pretends to be so learned and intelligent on so many subjects – it astonishes me that you lack such self awareness that you publicly write such outrageous comments.

      Anyone care to defend Mr Peffers?

    217. heedtracker says:

      Go on then, you have got me hooked, which resources did she obtain and how much of a secret is it – given that you seem to know about it?

      Where to start sensible Dave, Google Macrone, Google Dennis Thatcher, BP, BP sell offf for peanuts, BP state owned oil co was once like say Norway’s giant Statoil, owned by all of Norway.

      How did Dennis Thatcher make millions in BP share alone sensible Dave? Big, mediium, small, UKOK fraudsters rule the waves.

      Snatcher Thatcher checked out finally in her £250k per year suite at the Ritz. Tasty.

    218. heedtracker says:

      Anyone care to defend Mr Peffers? Sure sensible.

      You see its not racist because you cant be racist towards your fellow citizens or subjects of teamGB.

      It must be true because Steve Bell etc of the UKOK media pervert cover up squad said this kind of thing isnt racist because the subject is British, so there.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/salmondbell.jpg

      There are literally thousands of this NOT racist stuff all over the place in all UKOK unionist pervert protector UKOK media sensible dave, but you get the jist.

      Oddly enough you’re a odd lad raging against actual foreign people immigrating to teamGB but with no clue how you foreigner hating teamGBists are going to stop it.

      You just whine sensible dave. How very English.

    219. Marco McGinty says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      “Woke up this morning to hear Harriet Harman on Radio 4 saying she wanted her MPs to abstain on the Welfare Bill. Who’s turning their backs on the people down south now? It’s up to them to build their own Left party by following our example.”

      But Harriet Harman is a Tory, and that is why the Labour Party needs Jeremy Corbyn to take them back to the left. The fact remains, that there are many people throughout Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland that simply cannot afford to wait for a new left-wing party to form, never mind waiting for the gradual build to prominence. In a UK with much of the media having a preference for right-wing politics, that will take decades, and people cannot wait that long.

      “The existing Labour Party refuses to cooperate with the 56 and is totally untrustworthy, a zombie party with no sense of direction. And the people who loathe it most are former members who feel betrayed by its total lack of socialist principle.”

      I agree, that the current right-wing Labour Party is a shambolic disgrace, and I’ve said so on many an occasion, which again brings us to the urgent need for a Jeremy Corbyn-type figure to head the party, ridding itself of the Tory imposters in the process.

      For the foreseeable future, Labour in Scotland are a worthless bunch. The SNP don’t have much to fear, and it is highly likely that the SNP will govern Scotland for years to come, however there is only so much they can do under the current system. I am hopeful that independence will be attained within the next five to ten years, but there is no guarantee, hence my problem with the “let Labour die” mantra.

      There are many people on here that would consider themselves socialists, so I am really struggling to get my head around this strange desire that they want to see the Labour Party die, as without Scotland becoming an independent country, this will guarantee Tory rule for decades to come.

      The people do not deserve that.

    220. sensibledave says:

      Heedtracker @ 3.31

      You Lied “Oddly enough you’re a odd lad raging against actual foreign people immigrating to teamGB but with no clue how you foreigner hating teamGBists are going to stop it. You just whine sensible dave. How very English.

      No heedtracker. On the basis that you appear unable to read, let me try again. I don’t want to stop Immigration, I want levels of immigration that we believe we can manage and integrate successfully – JUST LIKE THE SNP POLICY!

      Everytime you write something Heedy you demonstrate ……

    221. sensibledave says:

      Heedtracker –

      You wrote “Where to start sensible Dave, Google Macrone”

      … I did as you suggested and all I could find was a video by a Christina Macrone singing along to “Rolling in the Deep”.

      Not sure that is particularly relevant me old china!

      Did you mean Macaroni perchance? Where The English raided the glenns and stole all the Macaroni trees using the SAS thus causing the great pasta famine in Scotland?

      BTW — still waiting to see Mr Peffers defenders come to the fore. Also BTW, It was Mr Peffers that decided I am a foreigner.

    222. Grouse Beater says:

      sensibledave says: Heedtracker – … I did as you suggested and all I could find was a video by a Christina Macrone singing along to “Rolling in the Deep”.

      You are the only person I’ve encountered looking for the McCrone Report, apparently ignorant of its contents – yet McCrone was interviewed a few times during the Referendum debate, reported and quoted countless times in the press and media. Standard reading for Modern Scottish Politics.

      On the topic of what is standard, here’s another example of standard arse-troll language chosen to belittle: “On the basis that you appear unable to read…

    223. Grouse Beater says:

      Dumbassdave: Anyone care to defend Mr Peffers?

      Happy to – you’re a nasty wee Englander. Not racist, is in the same category of description as ‘white supremacist’.

    224. Grouse Beater says:

      Dumbassdave: We do not have a problem with immigration in London – we only have a problem with the numbers each year.

      That’s a classic – I’ll dine out on that howler! Ha ha!

    225. Sendibledave says:

      Grousey – several times!!

      I am not in the least surprised that you and Headbanger have chosen to speak up and defend some of the comments.

      Fortunately, most commenters here know the difference between political disagreement and political extremism and know where the lines are.

    226. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Marco McGinty.

      I refer you to my previous answer. The Labour Party is a meaningless phrase without real socialism. A fresh start is needed in England.

      End of.

    227. Annette says:

      Corbyn is Labour’s only chance. If he isn’t elected (or if he is elected and then ousted), I hope he leaves Labour and forms his own party. That party could be ready to challenge the Tories by 2020.

    228. Anagach says:

      sensibledave says:

      Your starting assumption that housing, schools, doctors etc are fixed and limited resources is false.

      Houses are built, schools are expanded and Doctors trained or poached from other countries and imported as, yes, immigrants.

      Councils react to rising and falling numbers, populations shift. Scotland has absorbed 17% of its population from outside and managed its Schools/Housing and Doctors.

      England has absorbed 15% or so in the same way.

      What is happening in the south east is that with the sell off of state housing and failure to replace it over decades of neglect there is now a desperate shortage.

      This is not the fault of immigration.

      Stopping immigration will not solve the problem.

      Do not waste time and effort blaming immigrants.

    229. Marco McGinty says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      “I refer you to my previous answer. The Labour Party is a meaningless phrase without real socialism. A fresh start is needed in England.”

      Yes, which is why (for the majority of those that will be on the receiving end of vicious Tory policies), the quick, preferred option is for the Labour Party to make a rapid move to the left.

      A new left-wing party, starting from scratch, will never gain any media coverage, with the exception of all-out criticisms, and as a result, we will be plunged into decades of Tory rule. A prime example of this would be the portrayal of the SNP in mainstream media, and the media’s unbelievable assertions that Labour lost the General Election because they were “too left wing”.

      Another example of this media bias would be to look at the air time given to the left-wing Green Party, in comparison to that of the right-wing UKIP.

      If you disagree with me, then fine, if you want to discuss or debate, then fine, and if you don’t want to continue in a debate, then don’t, but please don’t end your comment with “End of”. It may not have been your intention, but it’s a highly condescending turn of phrase, giving the impression that your opinion should be heard, and no-one else’s should be afforded any consideration whatsoever.

    230. Grouse Beater says:

      Dumbassdave: you and Headbanger

      UKip is welcome to the idiot.

    231. Marco McGinty says:

      I’m just watching Who Do You Think You Are? USA, that I recorded recently, detailing the history of Reba McEntire, and she made a statement that has some relevance to some of the comments above;

      “I am very interested in knowing who the first of my ancestors were, to step on the Unites States of America. Because I go to Europe, and sometimes I don’t feel welcome, and then I go to other parts and feel, man, this is home – Ireland, Scotland – but then England I feel like oooh [turns around warily], I feel a little on guard.”

    232. Aldo says:

      We had left wing labour and right wing tories in the 1980s. Labour got humped repeatedly.

      By 1992, Neil Kinnock had gone a long way to reforming labour into a more moderate centre left force. The British electorate still voted conservative with memories of the stagflation, power cuts and industrial unrest of the seventies still at the forefront of their minds.

      Traditional left wing politicians can’t win anymore. We needed them, once. We needed them to establish socialised healthcare, the rights of workers. We needed them to clear the slums and create decent homes for ordinary people. We needed a basic standard of welfare to provide a safety net for those fallen on hard times.

      But those battles have been won and are in the past. No conservative seriously advocates revisiting them.

    233. Aldo says:

      I have no doubt that immigrants in and of themselves, collectively, put more into the nation than they take back out.

      But there’s an elephant in the room – one that almost never gets discussed.

      Many of those immigrants – perhaps most of them – end up performing labour for which no specific qualification is necessary. Unskilled, in other words.

      Now, we have how many people unemployed? A million and a half to two million? How many of those are in receipt of benefits?

      Yet every single one of them is capable of performing unskilled labour.

      So we pay people to essentially stay at home and replace them with immigrants. That adds a new dimension to the cost-benefit analysis of immigration that doesn’t always get factored in. Would immigration still be of overall benefit if this were to be taken into account?

    234. Grouse Beater says:

      Aldo: But there’s an elephant in the room – one that almost never gets discussed.

      Elephant? You are more the flea on the elephant.

    235. Calum McLean says:

      Dear Stuart,

      That is one of the finest, forensic articles that I have read for years.

      Thank you.

      The irony here, is that were Labour to study your narrative and act on it, they might stand a chance to recover their downward trajectory towards electoral extinction in 2020 – with NewLabs failure thereby condemning England to at least 10 years of Toxic Tory zealots killing off the decency in society.

      Though, for anyone with a fair grasp of events and vision, the demise of Labour, along with the persistent foolishness and arrogance of Tories taking Scots for idiots will inevitably result in Full Federal Devolution and then Full Independence for Scotland.

      You really would have thought “professional” politicians would have learnt something by the fact that after the “Vow” was renaged upon, Scotland was so disgusted that it sent a historically unprecedented message to Westminster in the form of 56 SNP MPs.

      The feckless Conservatives that continue to disrespect us will end the Union with little required from Scotland than to give the Westminster Establishment the answer it is destined to receive. Goodbye Union.

      Does Mundell and his ilk really think we came up the Clyde on a water biscuit?

      Mind you, here is what the Mundell thinks of his fellow Conservatives: “Clueless”….

      http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2007/03/david_mundell_m.html

      In response the Tories had been clammering for this fool to resign long ago. Now we are stuck with him. Well at least he is digging their hole for them. What an utter mess into which the Union has fallen.

    236. sensibledave says:

      Anagach 9.42

      This is probably a “dead thread” and you may not see this -but I thought I would respond anyway.

      Firstly, I don’t “blame” immigrants. Blame is a pejorative. If we are going to have a sensible discussion, we have to work on the basis that each of us are sincere in what we write and you have to accept that I have absolutely no problem with immigration. If, purely for political posturing purposes, you refuse to accept that then yes, it is a waste of time discussing it.

      Birth rates in the UK are such that the average number of children per couple is around 1.6 – which means (for want of a better term) the “indigenous” population is in slow decline. We need, and want, immigration for the country to grow and prosper. Can I be any clearer than that?

      So, the growth of the population is coming entirely from immigration. On the whole, the requirements for items like additional housing is driven almost entirely by the number of dwellings required to house additional immigrants.

      Given that we want them to come and given that they need a place to live – how many dwellings are we going to build in readiness for the immigrants that will arrive in say, July 2016 – and the months following. We need to start building those homes today. How many homes do we need for them? Where are we going to build them? Who is going to pay for them? Where does the money come from? The same issue applies to school places.

      You wrote: “Councils react to rising and falling numbers, populations shift. Scotland has absorbed 17% of its population from outside and managed its Schools/Housing and Doctors”.

      You have hit the nail on the head. They react after the event. This means, in any one month, around 10,000 immigrants arrive and Councils have to react. Given that it is not possible to “magic up” say, 3000 new homes each month from nowhere – we see the results in the form of 3 families sharing a house or houses with 10 single men all sleeping in the same flat.

      Logically, even if we build 3000 new homes this month – the immigrants arriving next month end up in the same situation – nowhere to live.

      The solution is planning. Just like many other countries around the world we should decide how many immigrants we want each year in a plan – and then build homes, schools, etc so that they “exist” by the time the people arrive. Otherwise, we will always see families and individuals having to share accommodation in a manner that we would not accept for our indigenous population.

      So, in summary, whatever number of immigrants we want – we should plan for. Whether that number is 100,000 a year or 350,000 a year I don’t mind – but, please, let us plan it, budget for it and implement construction such that the solutions exist by the time they are needed.

      This issue isn’t about SNP v Tory or left v right – it is simply about planning. Do we want to have a plan or do we want the situation to be outside of any control or planning?

    237. Aldo says:

      Cock beater didn’t try to properly respond to my point I noticed – instead choosing to respond with an insult.

      A man should be judged by the content of his character and not by the colour of his skin. You’ll be hard pushed to find anyone these days disagreeing with those fine words, first spoken half a century ago. Opposition to large scale immigration does not stem from racism – but economic and social concerns. The fact that an independent Scotland would virtually open its borders tells us all we need to know about the SNP. Student politicians intent on turning Scotland into a laboratory for left wing social experimentation.

      You’ll think the English are teddy bears when the country has been ‘enriched’.

    238. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “A man should be judged by the content of his character and not by the colour of his skin. You’ll be hard pushed to find anyone these days disagreeing with those fine words”

      You need to get out more.

    239. Will Podmore says:

      Yes, the EU is so great – unemployment at zero levels, especially among young people, wages soaring, Greece flourishing … embrace it!

    240. Grouse Beater says:

      Plodmore: Yes, the EU is so great

      You meant to write, Yes, Aldo is so great.

    241. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ah, Will. Not renounced your faith yet?



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