Vile abuse and harmless banter
Posted on
October 22, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
In that order, we presume.
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
Hmm.
So according to numpty Pumpty Martin Sheffield is now, apparently, in S******d. I wonder how this information has gone down in Sheffield. 😀
Iain Martin (who?) is a wanker.
What a lack of education some people portray on online.
Would these comments be shared face to face in a civil society , I doubt it , come on grow a pair
This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.
It is one of many types of behaviour that are often associated with group-think & narcissism, often quite destructive if not recognised & accommodated for.
The expression manifests itself when someone senses a need to exert influence because they are no longer in a position of superior authority.
It is therefore commonly seen amongst newspaper editors who recognise that they no longer are in control of news & information & thus see Wings & other social media sites as a threat to themselves & the power base to which they have traditionally felt an affinity.
I do enjoy watching the editors of newspapers squirm; they really do deserve to be nothing more than curious reference material filed away in a cabinet at the Mitchell Library.
Fuck them.
Godwins Law, or SNP BAAAADDDD
One day, I hope i can write as good as what Iain Martin and Kenneth Roy does:
“As Kenneth Roy – a man of the left and a great writer – explained in his latest piece for the Scottish Review, those in what terms itself the Nationalist movement now seem ?to operate on the basis that if someone is not completely for the SNP and independence then they must be completely against.”
I don’t trust the meeja these days so I went online and Googled ‘hypocrisy’.
I was right.
So to whom exactly is this Iain Martin targeting the shite he writes?
He has an audience somewhere which wants to read this?
Another day, another muck spreader escaped from the not so funny farm.
O/T James Landale, Beeb lead political reporter’s closing gambit on his Westminster coverage of EVEL for BBC News at Ten: quote, “…so England has as stronger voice, the SNP has another grievance”. They ain’t even trying to conceal it anymore – hidden in plain sight minus the hidden bit.
Flipper likened Salmond to Kim Jong-il
Denis Macshane compared Salmond to Slobodan Milosevic.
Jeremy Paxman compared Salmond to robert mugabe.
“Journalists and their bosses are seriously compared to the henchmen of mass-murdering tyrants”
Oh the inhumanity of it all. Rotten SNP scoundrels.
In the case of the BBC, doesn’t it do the work of war criminals? You can actually spell out a case, in detail, for the SNP councillor, that *should* stand up in court. But in any case Goebbels is often used very loosely to describe any propagandist.
However I’m not sure that ‘Nuremberg’ is ever used so flippantly. And does any one know exactly what aspect of the SNP rally is supposed to resemble the Nuremberg rallies? Or are all rallies by their nature sinister?
Maybe Martin is referring to the ridiculous but popular claim that Scotland is a one-party state, a term I thought applied only to countries with a one-party constitution, and not to a region (sorry, but Scotland is just that constitutionally) where a majority support one party. Do we have one-party boroughs too, one-party village councils?
Graham Harris Graham says:
22 October, 2015 at 10:20 pm
“This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.
It is one of many types of behaviour that are often associated with group-think & narcissism, often quite destructive if not recognised & accommodated for. The expression manifests itself when someone senses a need to exert influence because they are no longer in a position of superior authority.”
In the US it is known as “dolly shotting”. That is, putting words in your opponents mouth and replying to it. Putting up your own dollies and knocking them down. Britain believes that they are the world’s masters of “diplomacy”, in other words porky pie merchants.
It is getting to the stage that they believe there is no limit to how shit they can treat Scotland, as they’re convinced that no matter what they do to us we don’t have the balls to tell them where to go.
Well Goebbels was a journalist and PR consultant. Not with Carlton obviously. It was Freud’s nephew, Ernest Bernays, who changed the name of the black art from “propaganda” to “Pubic Relations”. Once he got to America it seemed politic to conceal the embarrassing heritage from WW1. Modern British journalists are only continuing a long standing tradition.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I am, along with many others, waiting on the SNP and the SG reaction to the quite obvious concerted actions of the unionist establishment in the build up to the Scottish elections. If they are not careful in their strategy and tactics, there may be a nasty surprise outcome come May.
People deserve a response to the unionist drive.
I think it is entirely fair to compare Brit Nat Press and Media hacks to the henchmen of mass murdering tyrants. How many of them supported Tory Bliar for one. Those same hacks are softening us up in the whole of the UK for another war as well.
The same hacks will no doubt be telling us all that it is also right that we have to suffer English Votes for Scottish Laws. Once they get briefed by Cameron and the pig efffers club that is.
Okay, so people like Iain Martin are masterful in the production of keech. But we control the direction of the fan.
Looks like Angus B MacNeil has secured a 10 minute bill in November. Like most 10 minute bills it probably won’t get far.
Angus B MacNeil MP ?@AngusMacNeilSNP 3h3 hours ago
My “10min Rule Bill” in Nov on #ScotsVotes4ScotsLaws will be interesting now. Return powers if ScotParl & Gov + ScotsMPs agree. #TripleLock
A n other right wing nut job. Bloody hell how many of them are there out there. This goes all the way to the head right wing nut job. No not
link to twitter.com
This right wing nut job
link to twitter.com
He’s actually quite scary but even so.
Iain Martin also stated in that article:
“Even the BBC Weather map is biased against Scotland, it was claimed. When it was pointed out that Scotland’s land mass is smaller than England’s this was reportedly disputed by members of the audience. Wilder Nationalists now do not even accept basic facts of geography if they conflict with their prejudices.”
Here is what Iain Martin is insisting is an accurate geographical portrayal of Scotland:
link to imgur.com
What a self-important arse he is.
“Bernays had a particular gift for the marketing strategy called the “tie-up” or “tie-in”. In this strategy, one venue, opportunity, or occasion for promoting a consumer product, for example, radio advertising, is linked to another, say, newspaper advertising, and even, at times, to a third, say a department store exhibition salesroom featuring the item, and possibly even a fourth, such as an important holiday, for example Thrift Week.”
link to archive.is
Substitute, for example, a newspaper article, linked to a radio news item, linked to a FMQ and possible also a Daily Politics or Great Debate or Newsnight question. Voila – the “tie in”.
Blow for Sturgeon!
Well England is a bit bigger in terms of land sq miles. From Wikipedia:
Scotland Area Land 77,933 km2 30,090 sq mi
England Area Land 130,279 km2 50,301 sq mi
link to youtube.com
So what?
All of which goes to support my contention that we have to raise the bar and start campaigning on our own issues and fighting the battles we can win on grounds we chose ourselves.
These are not the SNP record in Government, no matter how fine that might be because it will not be portrayed as anything other than a disaster, but the fact that Scotland is an ancient nation with a clever population and huge natural resources which can do much better if it is in control of its own future.
If we establish that we are self supporting with a potentially very successful future we win the next referendum. That is all
Who is this chap again?
I find the likes of Iain Martin & Alex Massie to be particularly offensive – their anti-Scottish, pro-British diatribes are despicable peppered as they are with outright untruths and spin. They have nothing positive to say about anything.
They also seem to attempt to disguise their own self-loathing with a pseudo superiority complex and are only ‘satisfied’ whilst talking Scotland and her people down.
As said above, ‘projection’ pretty much nails it.
[…] Vile abuse and harmless banter […]
@Capella,
I had a similar discussion with one of our senior campaigners this evening.
We always thought the better together stuff was coordinated (badly) but we reckoned this has gone to a higher level altogether.
High level coordination between the BBC, Right Wing MSM in England, MSM in Scotland, Labour and Tory Parties in order to Stop the SNP wining a majority in SE16.
This is an all out political attack to discredit the democratically elected Scottish Government and will only ramp up owner the coming months.
However, on the plus side his canvassing results show folk are not buying it – even die hard labour folk are now getting sick of this onslaught and turning SNP.
SNP1.
SNP2.
“mass murdering tyrants….” aye… seems about right…
@galamcennalath says: 22 October, 2015 at 10:25 pm:
” … So to whom exactly is this Iain Martin targeting the shite he writes
I dunnow, galamcennalath, but he sure as hell reminds me of that old comic sea-side postcard. The big fat lady is saying to her big fat lady friend, (as they look at a great big fat elephant), “Just ignore it, Mabelle and it’ll go away”.
Anybody heard from Gordon Brown today?
Thought not.
Daily Heil right wing nut job Quentin Letts currently summing up right wing nut job Andrew Neil’s BBC Politics show but somehow they probably wont be all toryboy light hearted over EVEL, or even mention it. Toryboys, if stuff what you do might be a tad dodgy, don’t mention it. China in, tax credits out, steel jobs out, EVEL didnt happen right.
I take it this chap Ian has never read the Scotsman in some time, I was repeatedly called a Nazi, but in one point he is correct the use, more correctly abuse of the holocaust is unacceptable! And should stop, nether we or the unionists are Nazi, OK some no supporters like giving the Nazi salute but they are mentally challenged and should be pitted! Spelling is correct !
Another point it’s a bit of a stretch to say Harry Potter is great literature, it’s not. But if he thinks it is that probably explains a lot that is wrong with his understanding of politics in Scotland today!
@ Hoss
The antidote seems to be exposing the lies as widely as possible. This site is doing a fantastic job of shining the light on the nefarious methods of the PR merchants. Or “journalists” as they are commonly known. No wonder Stu is so unpopular with the corporate media.
I wonder party conference had snipers on the roofs and security everywhere?
I wonder which was friendly and open and required next to no security?
Just noticed a Freudian slip of my own at 10.46. “Pubic Relations” should, of course, have been “Public Relations” Apologies to Ernest Bernays!
I was at that meeting, was Ian?
The quote was about the weather map showing Scotland to be much smaller than it actually was.
The speaker said it was nearly the same size, about a half of the country!
Someone else immediately spoke out that it was about a third of the land mass and although the rest of the audience caught tt the point was ignored by the panel, and it seems the media.
It was a symbolic example, easily misinterpreted by the Met. corp. Media.
The Councillor was misquoted as well. He was making a point that the propagandist most vilified by the British State recognised the brilliance in the dark arts that the BBC portrayed.
They are distracting from all the main questions.
The Lecturer just after asked about two reports on bias, one from Prof Robertson and one , a PhD Thesis from Wales?
I suggested opening BTL comments to engender communications and a conversation between the BBC and Scotland. Ignored.
If we engage with the Media, at all, on any level, it seems to be tailored to fit the establishment support or attack strategy.
Close down Democracy, especially in Scotland.
Handandshrimp,
Those with the power hold the tower, those with the support rock the Fort!
“Correction: Sorry, SNP rally not being held in Sheffield. It’s actually being held in Nuremberg”
I’d never heard of the guy so looked him up.
reporter for the Sunday Times Scotland (1993–97), political editor of Scotland on Sunday (1997–2000), political editor of The Scotsman (2000–01), deputy editor of Scotland on Sunday (2001), editor of The Scotsman (2001–04), editor of Scotland on Sunday (2004–06), deputy editor of the Sunday Telegraph (2006), and head of comment for the Telegraph Media Group (2008–09).
From 2009 to 2011 Deputy Editor of the Wall Street Journal Europe, for which he wrote a blog on politics. For a short time he moved to the Daily Mail newspaper in 2011 to write a weekly political column. He now blogs for the Telegraph and contributes a weekly column to The Sunday Telegraph.
Ah, I also see he’s editor for the far right CapX, say no more. Centre for Policy Studies indeed.
Some people rise up in life, go on to better things, follow their ideals and their dreams. Some people descend to the gutter.
O/T
Andrew Neil thoroughly debunked (the video):
link to tinyurl.com
Spread it far, spread it wide.
I got banned from NewsNet for suggesting we hire the Assembly Rooms during the Festival, so we can hold an award ceremony from the Scottish themed meeja.
I don’t think NNS liked my suggestion of awarding the Goebbels Meddle and the von Ribbentrop Prize. Bummer.
A tad insensitive?
P.S. I think there is compelling evidence that would convict the BBC of war crimes, most commonly attributed to ‘problems with management’.
Re Andrew Mclean @12.10
Actually the unionists, at least some, are starting to resemble the far right. The media, and establishment attack on the SNP, our democratically elected government, seems to be stepping up apace. They need to portray the SNP as a rogue regime in order to justify any means they may have to deploy in order to stop an SNP majority in 2016.
Ok I have watched a few episodes of ‘Stargate’, but I am seriously concerned about the anti Scotland thing going on South of the border. We are a serious threat to westmonsters agenda.
Some might even think a takeover of Holyrood would be justified, stranger things have happened!
Ok night all, before I really get carried away. :))
@ArtyHetty
Are you seriously suggesting that some politicians in Westminster have been taken over by the Goa’uld? I guess it would explain a lot! Which one do you think is Anubis, or Apophis? Can they be saved?
@R-type
“Iain Martin (who?) is a wanker.”
Given his twitter post, that us a pretty amazing presumption that he could find his dick.
@Proud Cybernat (1.12) –
🙂
Splendid stuff. Well done indeed – looking forward to more.
The unionists Orange Order rallies are much more like Nuremberg.Silly Billys.
@Yesindyref2
12.48am
That’s quite a CV right enough.
So what you’re saying is he’s a pig ignorant, thoughtless erse then.
@Graham Harris
“This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.”
If the man said that in front of me, I would tell him he’s being an arse. That’s the behavior, as far as I can see. 🙂
Worth reading.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
@Macart
EVEL is not the main item on the BBC news, and it’s not the main item of news (online) on the Herald, Scotsman or Record.
Just goes to show how important Parliamentary democracy is to them 🙁
I suspected that might be the case dads.
Our representation and electorate get made into second class citizens and the response from our fourth estate is…
… predictable.
Our heroes. 🙁
Now we know how the red Indians felt
Er, I dunno how to put this. Iain Martin is the author of a book which tells the story of the rise and fall of RBS. “Making it Happen, Fred Goodwin, RBS and the men who blew up the British Economy.” He wasn’t a total bampot when he wrote that. Indeed its quite good. I don’t think this Councillor helped us any by comparing the BBC to Goebbels. If we’re going to win we’ll need their neutrality at worst. Who’d be neutral after that? I’ve read this column from top to bottom. If Iain Martin does the same how many of you think he’ll change his mind and think we’re right after all? No chance. We reacted by behaving exactly as he expected. Until we stop treating everyone who disagrees with us as a bawbag needing a kicking it is difficult to see how we get from 45% to 60%. Get motivated by Iain Martin but don’t get angry.
Good morning my fellow Scots, we are now officially,
“Second Class Citizens”.
With EVEL becoming law, does this mean that the Scottish Tory MP, David Mundell, could NEVER become the UK Prime Minister?
If he can’t become Prime Minister, has anybody told him yet.
And what about our poor wee Scottish Labour MP, Ian Murray, he had high hopes of high office. All those years of crawling, gone in an instance.
Better Together?
Like Peter Wishart’s proposal to introduce a Bill whereby we get Scots Votes For Scots Laws which will return / devolve powers if a majority of Scots MPs vote for any measure in UK Parliament and is then ratified by the Scottish Parliament.
Contrary to English Nationalist complaints, Scottish MPs do not have a vote on devolved matters but the unelected Lady Mone of Mayfair now has more say on English matters that may affect Sotland, such as student tuition fees for Scots students at English Unis, than the 59 elected Scottish MPs.
Evil EVEL was introduced by David Cameron as a response to Scotland voting NO to self determination despite knowing that until then SNP MPs operating a self denying order on purely English Bills, but it also shafts the Tory Better Together allies Labour for good as they can never again govern by unless they win a majority of English seats which is very unlikely particularly when the proposed boundary changes will notionally deprive Labour of 20 plus seats in England.
But here’s what Labour’s main MP on EVEL debate Chris Bryant MP said in Westminster
EVEL could give “Scots another cause for grievance. And God knows they’ve never needed a cause for grievance”
Broad shoulders and all that, Better Together eh? Aye Right.
No wonder most voters think that the Labour Party is now irrelevant in Scotland.
As Tommy Sheppard MP for Edinburgh East says:
The proposals themselves involve an additional consent stage where English MPs will have to meet and give their consent. Effectively this means we get asked to step outside whilst they have a discussion. But crucially, at this stage English MPs could kill a proposal stone dead and we would get no further debate on the matter. When I pointed this out, quoting the proposed clause (84 N (4) if you can be bothered) you could see Tory MPs scouring the order paper to check. I genuinely think many of them did not realise this.
link to tommysheppardmp.scot
Responce from the SNP regarding EVEL.
link to snp.org
Not a word about EVEL on the BBC website this morning. How’s that for Public Service Broadcasting.
The BBC – Scotland’s public enemy No 2.
I’ve no idea who this guy is and he lost me at the Sheffield reference.
Maybe that’s what comes of not watching TV for five years.
I don’t think I’m missing out.
With the introduction of EVEL, is this an opportune moment to recall the fragrant Rowling’s comment that, with a No vote, we would ensure that we were never in a stronger position to call the shots on the constitution?
Perhaps she’s unavailable for comment as she’s done as was suggested to her earlier in the week.
O/T links
link to energyvoice.com
link to constructionenquirer.com
link to taxresearch.org.uk
EVEL being discussed on Radio Scotland at 9 a.m.
Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Daily Record online – not a word about EVEL.
Cameron’s been busy making sure his State Propaganda machine is doing it’s job by keeping the 2 million No voters in the dark, while the Tories plunge the knife into Scotland’s back.
Welcome to the new North Korea.
EVEL, statements from ..
Federal Brown, Flipper Darling, Curran, the Alexander non twins, JKR …. and dozens of others. Nothing.
They had plenty to say 18 months ago. Silence now. Are they proud of their contributions?
To be fair Scottish MPs at Westminster have always been Second Class, the only difference now is it’s official.
O/T links
link to linkis.com
link to mediameditations.wordpress.com
link to m.help.talktalk.co.uk
link to thecanary.co
Artist taxi driver…
link to youtube.com
See when they told us that we are ‘Better Together’, I did not realise they only meant from England’s point of view.
John King at 6:30
Just a point they are native americans, or first peoples.
when we have a national anthem that once contained and in some minds still do the lines “and rebellious Scots to crush” they have to quote “Our music teacher makes us sing patriotic songs with lyrics like, ‘pilgrims’ pride; land where my fathers died; let freedom ring.’ This is offensive to me,” said Lakota Dimond (Hunkpapa Lakota).
For a rather interesting similarity to Scotland today, and the so called extinguishing lie, look at this link in the FAQ section on sovereignty! link to niea.org
Finally for propaganda and the american dream?, the word Squaw, is a pejorative term for the female genitalia, the british nationalist press BNP, like to insult us but have not yet sunk to calling our women folk, cunts!
I have a question
If Camoron has decided the a country with devolved government cant legislate on Eglish only laws why are the Welsh (who have a devolved parliament) allowed to legislate?
was it something we said?
To be honest, I think this style of attack from the media and certain ‘key figures’ on the Union side will continue for the foreseeable future. No one is going to admonish them. No one is going to be sacked. We can name and shame as many of these people as we want, but at the end of the day, they will still be around. The likes of Blair McDougall, Ian Smart and Euan McColm as examples are basically going nowhere.
These folk can mock, deride and curse the SNP as well as all Yes Supporters as much as they want. No one is going to rein them in. Kezia made that clear when it came to Smart.
However, there is just one flaw for them all. They shouldn’t be shouting and finger pointing at the SNP or the Yes supporters about the real possible ending of the Union; they should be worried about the folk pulling the strings in their own camp.
Because after yesterday’s vote over EVEL, there is no way these guys can stop the growing anger and the shake of the heads when people in Scotland realise what is really going on down at Westminster.
On one hand, the Scottish people are told that they are part of a ‘family of nations’ and that Scotland is an equal partner with England thanks to the Act of Union.
Then they realise the true reality of it all when it comes to ‘the Union’.
They get told that ‘the vow has been delivered’ nonsense. They will soon cotton on as to what EVEL really means. They are about to get 4 nuclear submarines dumped in their back yard (it’ll happen …no matter what …it’ll happen). They have the threat of being taken out of the EU even though they were told only remaining in the UK would protect their EU status. They watch as London continues to spend vast sums of money on itself while food banks remain, the NHS in both countries are in crisis, child tax credits are cut and industries collapse leading to redundancies.
All of this matters to the Scottish people. And slowly, they are realising that this is not equality; that this is not fairness, and that Scotland only matters to London when it needs something from that nation. Day by day, a very small trickle of people in Scotland shake their heads and think ‘enough is enough’. Each day, a small portion of people become aware of the real state on the Union. They are sick of it. They want something else …and yes, they are moving more to the thought of independence.
And for the likes of McDougall, McColm and Smart …there is nothing they can do about that but point fingers, foam at the mouth and whine about SNP perceived failings. They can’t stop the trickle of people wanting something better. And while they stick daft comments on Twitter, it seems that they have not comprehended that it is their own side that is damaging their beloved Union.
They go on about ‘Separatists’. Well, to them, I’ll happily point out that the biggest set of separatists can be found in one section within Westminster halls that contain all the Unionist parties …and there they will find the biggest set of separatists of them all known as the Conservative Party, whom yesterday, turned a percentage of the peoples of the UK into second-class citizens when it comes to sitting in those hallowed halls.
@Lesley-Anne says: 22 October, 2015 at 10:06 pm:
“So according to numpty Pumpty Martin Sheffield is now, apparently, in S******d. I wonder how this information has gone down in Sheffield.”
One imagines, Lesley-Anne, that it makes a far less impact than the WWII bombers of a certain Mr Hitler did in WWII.
I believe it is very unlikely that the people whom Mr Cameron obeys, have not thought through their current strategy to the end. EVEL is only a part of that strategy.
It will include a willingness to use military force without hesitation, should Scotland adopt a policy of
non-co-operation.
There’s simply too much money at stake just to let Scotland walk away with it all and become another Norway.
England has too much to lose.
You know it makes sense.
O/T links
link to thecanary.co
link to m.help.talktalk.co.uk
link to mediameditations.wordpress.com
George Osborne is a liar…
link to youtube.com
EVEL is another divisive ploy by this appalling government.
Evel now on Call Kate.
Re EVEL,some of these 59 Scottish MPs are not even 2nd class MPs
If any of them are Roman Catholic,then the Act of Settlement makes them 3rd Class.Same goes for the rest of the Scottish people.
What a lovely inclusive, melting pot is Great Britain.
Quick check shows that the party most likely to be associated with Sheffield is Labour. Can I therefore suggest that the comma is meant to be after the SNP rather than before it?
Thing is they had EVEL anyway due numbers. What a silly silly law.
Wonder if any SLAB (excuses for) politicians will now come out for indy.
I am struggling to follow the logic of many of the arguments regarding EVEL.
Briefly, there is huge support here for the idea that EVEL is so unfair on Scots that it constitutes “the day” the Union ended – that Scots will see that their “masters” have done them over in such an unfair and underhand way that Scottish Independence is now inevitable.
If that is the case then why would those nasty Britnats that desperately want to hang on to Scotland have done this? Isn’t it good for the SNP and Scottish Independence.
Secondly, I have just read the information on the SNP site (referenced above) explaining what EVEL means:
“Stage one
When a bill is introduced in the Commons, the Speaker will be required to ‘certify’ whether the bill, or parts of it, relates exclusively to England, or England and Wales.”
….. So, the duly elected Government of the UK introduces a bill – the Speaker identifies if there are “English Only” aspects.
“? Stage two
The Bill will go through its Second Reading and Committee Stage as normal.”
… actually, they missed a phase i.e. the first reading. Nevertheless, the whole of the House of Commons, including the elected representative MPs from all parties, debate the bill and it is inspected in the Committee stages.
So nothing has changed so far.
“? Stage three
If the Speaker has decided a bill relates only to England it will go through a special, additional Committee Stage. A legislative Grand Committee will be set up, where only English MPs will consider the Bill. The membership of this committee will reflect the electoral makeup of England.
If the Speaker has decided a bill relates only to England and Wales, the legislative Grand Committee will be made up of English and Welsh MPs.
This stage allows English or English and Welsh MPs to debate legislation, and either consent to it or veto it.”
…. So, this Grand Committee can only either consent to it – or veto it! This means that the only power that the Grand Committee has is to agree or disagree to bills passed by the House of Commons.
In essence therefore, the power of the Grand Committee, is limited to vetoing Bills that only affect England!
Oh, the shame!
Vetoing can only occur if a majority of English MPs didn’t want a Bill passed that only affects England.
Appalling! An insult! The end of democracy! A slap in the face to Scottish MPs!
… give me a break!
BBC got hand picked texters and callers today. It is rather obvious.
For those who don’t know what the Sheffield reference means, it refers to the over confident then Labour Leader, Neil Kinnock who was leading in the polls in the 1992 General Election.
Martin was hoping the same would happen to the SNP in May. Here is a segment of his speech that the press used against Labour.
link to youtube.com
Is EVEL contrary to The Treaty of Union ?
If so, can we crowd fund a legal challenge to repeal the Treaty of Union?
Everyone wants to know when the next Referendum on Independence will be. But that’s not the game the Tories are playing. If the propaganda blitz over the next six months fails to unseat the SNP from overall control of Holyrood, then you can bet your house that Westminster will not suffer four more years of grief from Scotland.
Democracy is finished in the UK.
The Tories will not use democratic means to resolve the now irreconcilable differences between Scotland and England.
They never have in the past and they never will.
We know them.
Will Podmore 9:21 am
Wrote: “EVEL is another divisive ploy by this appalling government.”
Well this is new!
Let me guess Will, you are not one of the 55% of English voters in the GE that voted right of centre? You don’t want any additional democracy in England because you don’t like what the democratic majority want in England?
Don’t even think about feeding it.
sensible Dave,
Ok I get your point, actually I would go further, I don’t want any Scots voting at all in westminster. It’s long past time that england looked after its own affairs, we have been helping you out for far too long! Time to grow up and make your own way in life! Don’t be afraid, getting us to hold your hand at every turn hasn’t worked out!
probable that I am out of kilter with some here but I want EVEL MAX.
sensibledave at 9:40
Your analysis misses the point. For example, if there is legislation before the house of commons about Heathrow Airport, would that be an “English Only” bill? It could be argued both ways – it is entirely in England, but could have significant impact on Scotland. If the speaker decided it was English only, Scottish MPs would be excluded from the decision to veto the bill or not.
Also, using the same example, an MP from Newcastle or Carlisle would be allowed to take part in the decision to veto and yet the impact on their constituents is arguably less than that on people in Scotland. Then of course there is the issue of Barnet consequentials – decisions about England directly impact the funding of Scotland.
The whole thing is an unmitigated shambles. By all means have English votes for English laws, but if that is what you want, set up a parliament for England. The arrogance of the (UK) government in hijacking the UK parliament to make it a quasi-English parliament is unbelievable.
Correction – it is believable. In fact we should expect no less.
Like many regular Wingers, I have, on occasions, wished serious harm on sensibledave.
However, his post at 9.40am is, if I may say so, a very sensible and clear setting-out of the position on EVEL.
Prior to the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament, and the establishment of the Belfast and Cardiff Assemblies, there were frequent occasions in the Commons, whereby the Scottish MPs or Welsh or Northern Irish members, sat as a Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh Grand Committee, to discuss matters purely within their bailiewick.
English members could, as I understand it, attend these Grand Committee meetings, could speak, but could not vote. Assuming this will be the case with the English Grand Committee stage of “English Only” bills, I don’t have a problem with EVEL.
It is not as if Scottish MPs, even if unanimously against proposed legislation, could ever overturn an English majority in favour – that’s democracy, Westminster style.
What does stink, is the way this Tory government is trying to sneak it through via changing standing orders.
It will pass, but, one would hope, when the incumbent Speaker stands down, that a non-English MP might be elected in succession, if only as a check and balance. However, I do not see the Tories allowing this to happen.
An English parliament, separate from the House of Commons, and elected by some form of PR is still the ideal, but, don’t hold your breath for this happening.
The English Parliament will come, however, within a decade – once we have Independence.
Sensible Dave, no idea how the government of this benighted country works, well join the senseless majority who don’t. Firstly Scots MP’s do not vote on matters to do with Education or Health here in Scotland, So that is the first thing wrong with this. Then we have the fact that there are consequentials to much that is voted on in Westminster. What is needed is federalism and that my dear is never going to be offered by those who seek to control us.
England should have had a devolved Parliament as should Wales and NI not the stupid almost powerless Assemblies they have. Then there should be a Parliament to look after all the things not devolved. This EVEL is a crock of poo my dear and you are far to up yourself to understand. Go get an education.
The question nobody is asking is – Why Sheffield?
TD says:at 9:56 am
“Your analysis misses the point. For example, if there is legislation before the house of commons about Heathrow Airport, would that be an “English Only” bill? It could be argued both ways – it is entirely in England, but could have significant impact on Scotland. If the speaker decided it was English only, Scottish MPs would be excluded from the decision to veto the bill or not.”
No TD. You are missing the point. The whole of the House of Commons has to pass the bill. All MPs. All Parties.
Camy -see my post at 9.44
Sensibledave
You’re at it, and you know you’re at it.
What many of the MP’s did yesterday was to take the ‘UK’ Parliament, and turn part of it into an ‘English’ parliament.
The reason that they did this was because if they had built a separate building away from Westminster called the ‘English Parliament’, then we would be heading down the path of Federalism. But many MP’s and powerbrokers in the City don’t want that. This would lead to changes in taxation and forcing the City to fend for itself rather than rake in monies from all over the UK and spending it anyway it wants. A separate ‘English Parliament’ would have changed everything. If all four nations had their own individual Parliaments, then monies raised would have remained within those nations instead of being filtered off to London. But nah! Westminster can’t have that …so let’s do the usual and insidious thing, and implement an English Parliament right at the heart of the UK one. You would be screeching to the heavens if Germany or France decided from this point on that key EU issues would be debated within the Reichstag or French Senate. Well, same thing Dave.
You state that you have been on the SNP website and have quoted from it. Yep …all correct so far, but you them omit the outcome of EVEL as explained by the SNP. So …let me help you complete the task, Dave.
What does it mean?
– Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK.
– There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government.
– These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.
What could it affect?
– Many issues which may appear to be ‘England-only’ can often have knock-on consequences in terms of Scotland’s public finances – for example decisions on NHS spending. The SNP would look to vote against any privatisation of the NHS to protect Scotland’s budget as well as retaining the NHS as a proper public service in England.
– Any plans and subsequent legislation to build a third runway at Heathrow would also appear only to relate to England, but will have a huge knock-on effect in Scotland.
So …don’t start. You know fine well that a breach of the Union has taken place here. If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.
And if you’re going to quote the facts, then quote them in their entirety. Don’t play us for fools or believe us to be idiots. If you have no interest in independence then go and scuttle off somewhere and join one of the Tory, Labour or UKIP forums. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed there with your points of view!
No TD. You are missing the point. The whole of the House of Commons has to pass the bill. All MPs. All Parties.
Life for English foxes just got a whole lot more dangerous sensible.
Scotland’s on its way. Tally ho sensibledave.
Its why it’s all been buried as deep as insanely possible by English media in their Scotland region.
@Marcia
It’s there.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Helena Brown 9:59 am
Normally Helena, I would understand whatever point you are trying to make and then, if I disagreed with it, I would make my argument. On this occasion though, I have no idea what your comment has to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL – so I can’t.
I will ask the question again about EVEL,if England propose a big infrastructure project,does that mean that Scotland still gets charged their share while our MP’s had no vote on it?
If that could be the case,we can call Cameron Dick Turpin ( as well as many other things!)
it would be blatent robbery. Bye Bye Union.
sensibledave at 10:05
I chose my words very carefully. Scottish MPs would be excluded from the Grand Committee which would make a decision to veto the bill or not. I am not missing the point at all.
But you are clearly missing the point about this shambolic arrangement creating two classes of MP. You are clearly missing the point about the arrogance of the UK government. You are clearly missing the point about the further alienation of the Scottish people.
Of course, those of us who support independence for Scotland have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand we are outraged at this latest example of colonial rule of our country from London. On the other, this act is so blatant that it will win a few more No voters over to our side. We don’t need too many people to change to get to our target 60%.
Ronnie Cowan said in his speech yesterday
“England should have its own parliament- you’re not too wee, too poor”
Well said Mr Cowan. But sadly the English mps think they own everything and Westminster is theirs and theirs only.
Far as I’m concerned they are welcome to the cesspit.
“When a bill is introduced in the Commons, the Speaker will be required to ‘certify’ whether the bill, or parts of it, relates exclusively to England, or England and Wales.”
Which is preposterous. It took many MPs and a lot of time to determine which issues should be devolved to Scotland. And now one individual MP (who happens to sit in an English contituency) can decide at their whim whether something is an English-only issue?
Funny how the Scotland Act is an English only issue, huh.
Seriously, you’re an imbecile.
SensibleDave
“Your analysis misses the point. For example, if there is legislation before the house of commons about Heathrow Airport, would that be an “English Only” bill? It could be argued both ways – it is entirely in England, but could have significant impact on Scotland. If the speaker decided it was English only, Scottish MPs would be excluded from the decision to veto the bill or not.”
True …but once again, missing the point.
What it means is that Scottish, Welsh and NI MP’s could be locked out of the room while English MP’s debate the costs of a third run way. But who is paying for it Dave? Well …Shock, horror! Everyone! Not just the English constituents, but EVERYONE in the UK. So it isn’t an English matter. It’s dressed up as one, but in reality, it affects everyone in the UK.
And where would we be Dave? That’s right …standing outside the main chamber tapping our feet while English MP’s debate the cost.
That is why England needs a completely and separate parliament. If it wants to debate costs for a third runway, the English people pay for it …not everyone in the UK.
Once again, you’re only telling half a story here.
So Scottish MP`sAs the Americans clapping in parliament is headline news throughout the sewer that is the Scottish MSM but when at the same parliament the English vote to make the representatives of the citizens of Scotland second class and impotent we hear/read absolutely nothing.
`No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.
Imagine living in a family home where only one partner makes all the decisions on every purchase and on every single aspect of what you can or cannot do.
. How long would that last I wonder ?
JLT 10.11
“What does it mean?
– Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK.”
… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs
“– There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government.”
… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs
“– These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.”
…. But if The House of Commons (including Scottish MPs) thinks the Speaker is wrong, they wont pass the Bill!
“What could it affect?
– Many issues which may appear to be ‘England-only’ can often have knock-on consequences in terms of Scotland’s public finances – for example decisions on NHS spending. The SNP would look to vote against any privatisation of the NHS to protect Scotland’s budget as well as retaining the NHS as a proper public service in England.”
… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs
– Any plans and subsequent legislation to build a third runway at Heathrow would also appear only to relate to England, but will have a huge knock-on effect in Scotland.
… but the whole of the House of Commons have to vote for the knock on affect. The Grand Committee can only agree to it.
“So …don’t start. You know fine well that a breach of the Union has taken place here. If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.”
…. Poppycock!
And if you’re going to quote the facts, then quote them in their entirety. Don’t play us for fools or believe us to be idiots. If you have no interest in independence then go and scuttle off somewhere and join one of the Tory, Labour or UKIP forums. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed there with your points of view!
… and you JLT, need to read and understand what the SNP web site is telling you – in essence:
1. English Only laws will only be passed if the duly elected representatives of the people of the whole of the UK (including Scottish MPs) want to pass them.
2. English Only laws can only be vetoed by a majority of duly elected English MPs
If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.
That EVEL thing went through Parliament very swiftly. I wonder why the recommendations of the Smith commission aren’t going through at the same speed.
sensibledave says:
23 October, 2015 at 10:05 am
Are you not forgetting that the English MP’s can overule Scotland right now,at any time. I will assume you can count.
Our MP’s effect a miniscule number of bills,being outvoted at every turn.In light of that,English MP.s already have the power.
What EVEL does is exclude our MP’s from protesting, but wait, is that not what democracy is meant to be. There is little doubt these changes to the UK parliament will badly effect Scotland, as the Tories want it to do.
This will denegrate Scotland,that has to be the reason.
Democracy,if it ever existed in the UK is firmly nailed down now.
It is not allowed and we are to be punished and robbed for daring to try and apply it. Tick Tock!
JLT 10:24 am
“What it means is that Scottish, Welsh and NI MP’s could be locked out of the room while English MP’s debate the costs of a third run way. But who is paying for it Dave? Well …Shock, horror! Everyone! Not just the English constituents, but EVERYONE in the UK. So it isn’t an English matter. It’s dressed up as one, but in reality, it affects everyone in the UK.
And where would we be Dave? That’s right …standing outside the main chamber tapping our feet while English MP’s debate the cost.
That is why England needs a completely and separate parliament. If it wants to debate costs for a third runway, the English people pay for it …not everyone in the UK.
Once again, you’re only telling half a story here.”
…. No JLT, you still haven’t got it have you.
Try and understand this single, key, point JLT – any Bill, including costs, has to be passed by the House of Commons (including Scottish MPs) i.e. the Bill has to represent the democratic will of the UK Parliament for it to be passed.
If you whole argument has come to down to the “costs” of the Grand Committee having a chat about English only laws then, if there are any, it will represent excellent value for money in comparison to any other Assembly, or Parliament, in the UK.
Scot Finlayson says:at 10:28 am
`No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.”
Excellent point, so my tax will pay, in part, for english only items, that I have no democratic representation for. this is not just a moot point, Englands MPs could vote in policies that would have a dramatic effect of the financial stability of the UK. ‘True Sons of Liberty’ the end is near for this bastard union
Absolutely astonishing. EVEL.
The biggest constitutional change to government in memory and it is relegated to third place in Reporting Scotland, after the Clutha helicopter crash report. The Scotsman leads with a headline attacking the SNP’s council tax freeze, and has nine out of ten letters attacking various aspects of the SNP government.
All reference to EVEL has been removed from the BBC On Line Scotland page.
You would think they had something to hide.
Scottish MP`s ridiculed for clapping in parliament is headline news throughout the sewer that is the Scottish MSM but when at the same parliament the English vote to make the representatives of the citizens of Scotland second class and impotent we hear/read absolutely nothing.
`No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.
Someone will correct if I’m wrong about this but in addition to EVEL our MP’s are being edged out in other ways. For instance the committee on human rights has 4 Tory, 2 Lab MP’s and 6 peers. NO SNP
I doubt the smith commission fudge will even be delivered now. The tories don’t care what happens to Scots, we have always known that. For crying out they don’t care about English people either. That’s obvious from the damage they are doing to people’s lives.
When the UN is called in to investigate government policy related to deaths of vulnerable and disabled folk something is very badly wrong and stinks of corruption. Putrid tories doing what they have always done, filling their own pockets at the expense of everyone else.
If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.
If only. sensible, EVEL, tax credit slashed, Smith Commision PAYE tax hikes, all designed to completely fcuk Scotland and ofcourse SNP Scots.gov, get their SLabour goon show back in power again, for ever and ever amen.
And that’s just what its obviously going on in broad daylight.
Here’s future Lord Adam Tomkins, Ljubljana West on what EVEL really means for the future of England in Scotland
link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com
EVEL is not a mere tidying-up measure. It is, on the contrary, likely to have profound constitutional consequences. Whilst the Government’s proposals are confined to law-making, if the principle of EVEL takes root, it could in due course lead to a desire for other aspects of parliamentary business with a separate and distinct effect in England becoming subject to the need for explicit English consent.
There are Departments of State, for example, whose business directly affects only or mainly England (or England and Wales) (the Departments of Education, Communities and Local Government, and Health are examples).
Should the Secretary of State (and Ministers of State?) of these departments be required to represent English constituencies? Or, as a lesser measure, should their appointments be subject to the consent of a majority of MPs representing seats in England? Should the select committees that scrutinise these departments be composed only of MPs representing constituencies in England (or England and Wales)?
Is the great Professor Smirky wrong sensible?
“In this way, journalists and their bosses are seriously compared to the henchmen of mass-murdering tyrants.”
With their lies and misinformation these journalists and their bosses are mass-murdering our democracy. (Exhibit #1: Andrew Neil interview with the SNP’s Angus Robertson MP – link to tinyurl.com ).
Wonder how every unionist politician will answer the question about how the campaigned, lied, threatened to secure a NO vote last year, and how they now feel about that vote meaning that Scotland, her people and elected representatives are now second class.
Les Wilson 10:39 am
You wrote: “Are you not forgetting that the English MP’s can overule Scotland right now,at any time. I will assume you can count.”
…. This is starting to get tedious now.
Come on Les! Please try to keep up. Let me paraphrase your paragraph above:
“Are you not forgetting that the duly elected representatives of the UK Parliament can have a vote on something and some of those representatives will be in the minority when the votes are counted”
No I haven’t forgotten Les – we call it democracy.
Sensible dave
… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs”
Ok you may not know, but we Scots are a small minority in Westminster, even if all our MPs were to vote, it would matter not a jot, we are sick of the Tyranny of the majority who don’t have our interests at heart.
We wish for a better future, and sorry that does not include you! Not that we wish you ill, we just don’t want to be shackled to you anymore, it is not healthy for either of us.
The bedrock of democracy in westminster is that all mps are equal, even the position Prime minister is a fallacy, there is no such man, he is not real, all he is is a PM. And that is the nub of the argument, either all in or all out! My vote is all out!
sensibledave
You continue to miss the point. If you believe in the UK, then that is a legitimate point of view (although not one shared by most people commenting here). But if you believe in a unitary parliament for the United Kingdom, then all members of that parliament should have the same status.
Imagine if we were considering a third world emerging democracy and trying to judge how democratic they were. If elected representatives from part of that country were discriminated against purely because of the area they represented, we would immediately doubt that country’s democratic credentials. And if it turned out that those who had the higher status outnumbered those with the lower status by around 10 to 1, we would be horrified at the oppression of a minority.
How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English. If you want to continue to do it in the unitary UK parliament, then that’s fine but you’ll have to accept that there are Scottish members of that parliament. If you want to do it in an English parliament, that’s also fine and I am sure there would be no opposition from SNP MPs to the necessary legislation. But what is not acceptable is to meddle with the rules of OUR parliament to suit your own self-interest.
It is an outrage. Even Labour recognise it.
Ian Murray confirms Scottish,Welsh,N Irish MPs are 2nd class
Commenting on last night’s Commons vote, Shadow Scotland Secretary Ian Murray MP said:
“Today, the Government have put a wrecking ball through the constitution with a measure that will only serve to weaken our democracy. For the first time there will now be two tiers of MPs, and unelected members of the House of Lords will have more power than some elected MPs. Today is yet more evidence that David Cameron is governing in the interests of his rebel backbenchers and not the country as a whole.
OT. Very interesting observation. Defence Expenditure Bill being discussed now in the House of Commons and for the first time ever (as far as I have seen) since the GE there is not one SNP MP in the chamber.
The SNP group have been the best in percentage terms attendees and contributors of any party.
EVEL:
Suppose God forbid Ian Murray were to be elevated to leader of the Labour Party and then Labour swept the board in a great victory in the next GE
Poor old Ian as new Prime Minister couldn’t vote on purely English matters but here’s the thing neither could his 59 Scottish Labour MPs thereby diluting any power the Labour party might have in the future, exactly how the Tories planned
So if the Labour party in Scotland has any brains and wants to survive it had better start supporting Independence or it has no future North and South of the border
Baroness Moan of Bra’sburgh now has more say over what goes on in Scotland than Kezia
Funnier by the minute Kezia with a YES banner and a Saltire
Couldn’t MPs just defy EVEL and turn up at ‘English only’ debates and attempt to be heard (one way or another….) and attempt to vote? It would make great political theatre if they did. That was what Parnell and the Irish National Party attempted to do in the 19th century by philibustering.
Read Prof T’s thing sensible? Its a great essay isnt it.
“If the Government want their “relatively modest proposal” to stand the test of time, they would be well advised to proceed with less haste and more care. I welcome the idea of English votes for English laws. I would welcome it more enthusiastically if I thought that its consequences and constitutional importance had been fully thought through.”
Toryboy world ignored Prof T on NOT rushing eh.
Also sensible
“In short, the Scottish block grant is calculated by reference to certain departmental spending in England. If such spending is cut in England, so too is the block grant. Now, legislation itself does not change departments’ budget provision.”
So sensible, toryboy England slash and burn continues, Scotland now has NO vote.
Andrew McLean 10:44 am
“Englands MPs could vote in policies that would have a dramatic effect of the financial stability of the UK.”
No Andrew – THE UK PARLIAMENT,/b> HAS TO VOTE FOR POLICIES THAT HAVE A DRAMATIC AFFECT OF THE FINANCIAL STABILITY OF THE UK!!!!!!
sensible dave,
Typo not PM, not real! Ment to type MP 🙂
2. English Only laws can only be vetoed by a majority of duly elected English MPs
If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.”
Scottish MPs enjoy no such veto for Scottish only laws, if you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.
The votes of Scottish MPs made a difference to the outcome of divisions 0.65% of the time since 2001, according to the House of Commons Library’s research.
English MPs have 99.35% success rate in getting their own way and they want more?
What kind of ‘union’ was that?
TD 10.56
“How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”
Unfortunately though, and you still haven’t “got it” have you, English Only laws will only come to pass – IF THE UK PARLIAMENT, INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs, VOTE FOR THEM!
I understand that the the SNP “project fear” machine has been working overtime on you all to get yourselves worked up into a lather over this.
I think, slowly, one by one, you are beginning to understand the truth.
Labour research found that
“Labour, voters north of the Border no longer feel angry about the party “taking Scotland for granted”. But this is only because they think the party is “simply an irrelevance”.
I pretty much have to same feelings towards ‘journalist’ like Iain Martin.
Can you help?
Did Ian Murray take part in the EVEL debate?
Sensible dave,
your argument is built on foundations of sand, and us vile separatists are pissing on them. !
link to peter-arnott.blogspot.co.uk
… and you JLT, need to read and understand what the SNP web site is telling you – in essence:
Ehhhhh …they did ….and that was the bit that you decidedly missed out and I had to post for you. Why was that, Dave? Why did you omit the consequences from the SNP site? You quoted everything else, bar the SNP’s conclusions. Strange that!
Right, three points that you may want to take on board before I’m finished with you entirely. Never again will I get into one your purile nonsensical arguments.
Firstly Dave …start giving all the facts and not just the ones that suit your agenda. I’ve had to pick you up on two things in previous posts because you tell ‘half the story’. Don’t quote half an SNP article and pretend to everyone that that is the full story. There’s a thing called the internet. It takes only a few seconds to look up your ‘fact’ and then realise that you’re not being fully honest.
Secondly …try understand the concept of a ‘separate’ parliament and raising your very own taxation. You continually skirt around two key issues here; representation and tax. Maybe you’ve read once that Britain once had 13 colonies somewhere on the other side of the Atlantic, but then lost them through the argument of ‘No taxation without representation’. Guess what pal, seems history is repeating itself here.
Understand one thing …everyone here wants England to have its own Parliament. No one is arguing against it. What we are arguing against is the fact that they are using the UK Parliament as that English parliament. However, you seem to struggle with that concept. Hoping that the Speaker ‘may’ keep non-English MP’s in the room isn’t democracy. It’s political Russian Roulette. We just don’t know when we get up that day, and see if we will be allowed in the chamber to debate on a sensitive ‘English’ issue. For everyone else here, we can see that that isn’t democracy. So either build a separate parliament (which England pays for) or end the Union in its entirety …because this isn’t a Union if EVEL is finally implemented.
Thirdly …you’re for the Union, mate. So go and find a nice Union forum. ‘Britain First’ does a good one if it helps.
So …good day SensibleDave. We are done.
Sunniva 10:59 am
You wrote “Couldn’t MPs just defy EVEL and turn up at ‘English only’ debates and attempt to be heard (one way or another….) and attempt to vote? It would make great political theatre if they did. That was what Parnell and the Irish National Party attempted to do in the 19th century by philibustering”
… I think that comment just about sums up the whole debate.
Sunniva hasn’t got a clue what EVEL is about – and yet he is against it!
This means it’s pretty much impossible for Fluffy to become Prime Minister of England.I mean Britain.The greatest PM that never was?
The NHS budget in England is the yardstick for determining the SNHS budget via Barnett. Prior to yesterday Scots MPs could vote on the ENHS. And rightly so because if, for example, the Tories proposed cutting the ENHS budget that cut will have a knock-on (adverse) effect to Scotland’s Block Grant.
Where Scots MPs prior to E-Day had at least some influence on this, they now have no say at all on how the Scottih Block Grant is calculated. In this regard, Scots MPs now have no voice in Westminster on matters that will impact upon their constituents.
We need to be yelling this from the rooftops all across Scotland. The UK is heading towards tyranny if this situation is not resolved and allowed to continue.
@sensibledave,
You don’t have a clue what EVEL is truly about.
It is about breaking the potential will of the Scottish people to choose independence
sensibledave says:
Well democracy has just been screwed over by Westminster.
English MP’s already have the power. It is Scotland they want to harm, however they try and spin it.
sensibledave at 11:09
You say I “don’t get it”. I do. I understand that the whole house of commons will have to pass the legislation. I don’t know why you keep repeating this.
But you don’t seem to “get” that it is fundamentally undemocratic to have different classes of MPs. You don’t seem to “get” that this is an abuse of power. You don’t seem to “get” that EVEL as currently proposed will drive people to vote SNP and Yes.
JLT 11.13
You wrote: “Understand one thing …everyone here wants England to have its own Parliament.”
I do. And I recognise that it colours your view on every issue because you think an English Parliament will help your cause for Scottish Independence – which is why you are unable assess EVEL in any sensible way.
You wrote: “Hoping that the Speaker ‘may’ keep non-English MP’s in the room isn’t democracy. It’s political Russian Roulette. We just don’t know when we get up that day, and see if we will be allowed in the chamber to debate on a sensitive ‘English’ issue.
…. I will try and keep my patience. THE UK PARLIAMENT (INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPS) WILL DEBATE, THROUGH THREE READINGS, TO PASS ANY BILL ON “ENGLISH ONLY” LAWS.
The great frauds explain
link to bbc.co.uk
“How it will work
Speaker John Bercow will decide whether a Bill only affects England, and all MPs in the Commons will still have to pass legislation at other stages of the process”
So one dude, toryboy ofcourse, now decides the entire future of teamGB. BBC lie machine does not discuss why this is essentially the end of democracy for Scotland in Westminster.
This one BBC fraud on Scotland ends with-
“When Scotland voted last year to remain part of the UK, David Cameron promised significantly increased powers for the Scottish Parliament, including the ability to set some tax and benefit levels.
At the same time, he promised English MPs they would get more power too – they would be able to legislate in areas such as health and education without any input from MPs representing Scottish seat”
But when Scotland voted Sept 18 last year, EVEL wasn’t on the referendum ballot was it dear BBC lie machine. Maybe “At the same time” in BBC speak means 12 hours later or the day after.
But facts like pig fancier Cammers producing EVEL the day after the referendum, doesn’t seem worth mention to the BBC frauds, today at least.
Another pretty neat display of BBC propaganda though.
sensibledave says:
23 October, 2015 at 11:09 am
TD 10.56
“How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”
Unfortunately though, and you still haven’t “got it” have you, English Only laws will only come to pass – IF THE UK PARLIAMENT, INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs, VOTE FOR THEM!
I understand that the the SNP “project fear” machine has been working overtime on you all to get yourselves worked up into a lather over this.
I think, slowly, one by one, you are beginning to understand the truth.
In fairness dave you are correct in what you say.
What you don’t say however is that there are 59 Scottish MPs and 533 English MPs with currently an absolute Tory majority.
Therefore English MPs can overrule Scottish MPs any time they like (or are Whipped) as happened during the passage of the Scotland Bill.
As things now stand no Scottish MP of whatever Party could effectively be a Prime Minter, Chancellor or Cabinet Minister, neither could they become Shadow equivalents.
So there you have it, Scots MPs have been reduced to second class MPs on a nod.
The interesting bit is how can Fluffy Mundell (not Mun-dell) keep his Viceroy’s post. I wait with anticipation on that one.
link to en.wikipedia.org
And there is no equivalent measure to prevent all English MPs voting on any UK matter which mostly affects Scotland.
In the unlikely event of the Labour Party in Scotland effecting a huge revival and sending a huge team down to Westminster Cameron has just guaranteed they can’t vote on “English only ” matters thus providing a guaranteed permanent Tory majority in England.
The concept of a political United Kingdom has been destroyed.
The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.
Proud Cybernat said at 1:12 am:-
“O/T
Andrew Neil thoroughly debunked (the video):
link to tinyurl.com
Spread it far, spread it wide.”
Well worth a Second Hearing/Viewing.
Easy to understand graphics and commentary. 🙂
Excellent.
The Movers and Shakers at the BBC in Scotland could even make sense of this.
link to tinyurl.com
Bob Mack 11:23 am
You wrote “You don’t have a clue what EVEL is truly about.
It is about breaking the potential will of the Scottish people to choose independence”
Bob, I do think I am in the minority here. It would appear, based upon most of the comments above, that I am one of very few people who understand what EVEL is about.
The rest, are just against it because someone has told them they are.
This has an amazing counterpart in American history, The stamp act was a pretty innocuous piece of law, Westminster put it through without much debate, after all it was in their eyes an administrative tidying up!
But it caused so much consternation in the colony , that the scraped the act one year later, that could happen with EVEL, But by that time the die had been cast!
In this EVEL the pretence of a united parliamentary system has ended, we scots never voted for Thatcher but we got her! we never voted for trident but we got them, we never voted for austerity but we have got it!
We did vote to remain in this basterd union, God help us, we did! Now we will pay, did we really believe a writer of children’s stories, that we would be in a strong position?, or the liar Gordon Brown, and his Vow, FFS he was a back bencher, his ego and big fat lying mouth smothered truth in the last days of the referendum debate. where was EVEL, oh yes, liar Brown, did David Cameron mention that to you, because the first thin out of his mouth after the no vote was EVEL, therefore he was planning this for a long time, vote no Scotts, cos I got a big surprise for you!
I confess I don’t keep up with what legislation is before Westminster unless it is something I consider ‘big’. I suspect many others are the same. Just had a look to see what goes on ….
link to services.parliament.uk
… my response is astonishment. I had no idea the list looked like this!
A selection, starting at C …
Carers (Leave Entitlement) Bill
Chancel Repairs Bill
Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill
Child Victims of Human Trafficking (Central Government Responsibility) Bill
Childcare Bill
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill
Civil Enforcement Officers and Traffic Wardens (Integration of Duties and Powers) (England) Bill
Etc etc
…. on first glance it would appear many are indeed only concerned with England.
However, since England has no budget and dips continually into the UK coffers, most English only legislation may have UK financial implications, and is therefore not in fact be English only.
And, that’s before we even open the Barnet consequentials can of worms!
My reaction, on seeing the list, is that Bill after Bill is going to be contentious regarding EVEL or not.
My understanding is that if mistakes are made, laws are passed without non-English MPs, and an individual feels their democratic rights are being sidelined, then they have a good case to take before the courts.
Hi all,
Correct me if I am wrong but surely the changing of the rules in Westminster yesterday, will when it becomes law, take away the universality of all MPs.
It may make it much easier for the exclusion of other groups of MPs because they are trying to vote on areas outside of their concern.
Could this not be used to limit who could vote on the Scotland Bill for example. Can it be said to set a precedent in any way?
Only asking.
Here’s a thought.
Would the contentious siting of a nuclear arms base in England be a matter to be decided only by English MPs?
“Devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”. Aye, that worked in the past didn’t it! Tee hee. Unionists are killing the so-called united kingdom. More please.
Dave McEwan 11:32 am
The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.
No, Dave hasn’t “got it” yet either. SCOTTISH MPS WILL VOTE ON “ENGLISH ONLY” LAWS DAVE. ENGLISH ONLY LAWS WILL ONLY BE PASSED IF THE UK PARLIAMENT (INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPs) VOTE FOR THEM.
Hereafter, I will use the acronym “SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT” to help prevent RSA.
I tried to get through on the phone in this morning as I couldn’t believe the utter claptrap from the supporters of EVEL. It was nothing more that an attack on the SNP.
No mention of the fact that Labour voted against.
I wanted to make the point that the vote was nothing to do with Scotland but to stop Labour ever getting enough votes to control Westminster. Without 50 or so Scottish seats, a future Labour government has a snowballs chance In hell of passing Engish only laws. The Tories have stitched them up a treat.
Never got through of course and I missed the last 10 mins of the phone in as a result.
The rest, are just against it because someone has told them they are
Sensibledave youre wrong, I’m right is all fair enough but we didnt know EVEL was coming when we voted 18 Sept 2014. Can you not even begin to understand how democracy works.
Yes The Vow was a devo-max fraud, this much we know now but it was dumped into Scotland’s referendum at the end of a campaign that toryboy world which refused on the third devo-max option for Scots, the most popular option too.
So on top of the Vow devo-max shyste, we now we have EVEL, also kept secret from Scottish voters until the day after 18 Sept.
Its that anti democratic sensibledave.
‘Dave McEwan Hill says:
The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.’
Ruby replies
Being that the Unionist parties at Holyrood are just branch offices being told what to do by English MPs then it is not true to say that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament. Sure they can’t be there pysically to vote they just tell their branch office assistants how to they want them to vote.
sensibledave at 11:28
Glad to hear you are keeping your patience. You keep repeating that the whole house of commons will have to pass English legislation. To copy your style of using upper case to emphasise – WE KNOW. I could make it bold as well – would you get it then?
I think you are being disingenuous and you do actually get the point that Scottish MPs will be excluded from the English Grand Committee. This committee will have the power to veto legislation. It cannot initiate legislation, but the power to veto is considerable. If EVEL did not give power to English MPs, what would be the point?
The whole point of EVEL as currently proposed is to pander to the perceived injustice felt by some back-bench tory MPs and the less-informed English public. Those same backbenchers of course did not hesitate to throw out every SNP amendment to the Scotland Bill which was, guess what, about Scotland!
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. Correction again – it is believable. It is what we have come to expect.
sensibledave at 11.41
Rubbish. What would be the point of “English only laws” then if they are not English only laws
Iain Martin:-
Employed by A Neil at Scotsman Pubs. after takeover by loathesome Barclay Bros. and under Brillo started the destruction of The Scotsman subsequently completed under JP ownership.
Now takes The Telegraph shilling – Telegraph part of Press Holdings – Chairman A. Neil – ultimate owners – loathesome Barclay Bros.
Isn’t it a nice cosy world in the media?
@sensibledave,
If what you say is true, why has the Speaker to decide what is only English ? Should it not be obvious ?
The Speaker as we know is” impartial”
C’mon Dave, open your eyes.It is a stitch up from beginning to end in favour of the English master race.
The reason you cannot or will not see it is that you are part of the problem.
@ sensibledave, various comments and timestamps
At approximately 5.00pm. on Thursday 22nd. October 2015 the Union died.
Where’s the shovel?
Quite a thoughtful piece from the Economist which is certainly not a separatist rag
“It is wrong that Scottish MPs get to rule on bills concerning, say, only English hospitals. But banning them from participating in such votes would create the risk of two separate governments; one English, one British (in the event of a Labour government reliant on its Scottish MPs, for example). So EVEL rightly gives English MPs a veto, but also requires all bills to pass the House of Commons as a whole. As compromises go, it could be worse.
Still, the risk of a “two-tier” Commons is real. In a chamber where all are notionally equal Scottish MPs will be less powerful than English ones. EVEL greatly inflates the role of the speaker, whose job it will be to decide whether a bill is English-only—and thus whether the English majority should wield a veto. In practice, he will generally rule on the side of Britishness. This, and the fact that further fiscal powers will soon travel north to Edinburgh (meaning that even budget votes could generate expectations of an English veto), will eventually render EVEL insufficient. It seems to me that this movie has two possible endings.
The first, happier one is federalisation. Giving England power over things that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland already control would clear the way to a Parliament and government in Downing Street responsible only for matters affecting all British citizens equally: foreign affairs, defence, monetary policy and so forth. An English Parliament risks exacerbating the problem that for centuries has been smothered in the mushy blur of Englishness and Britishness: the unworkable rivalry between any English government and a British one. But English devolution could yet take different forms. Sub-national authorities in England are already assuming powers unthinkable a few short years ago: Greater Manchester will soon run its own health service, for example. The long-term solution to Britain’s constitutional quandaries is probably a federal system in which Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Cardiff, Southampton, Edinburgh and Belfast meet together, on equal terms, in London.
The second and more likely possible outcome is separation. English self-denial has long been the glue holding the union together. It is melting. Both EVEL and the broader rise in an English sense of identity (comprehensively outlined in a 2012 paper by the IPPR, a think-tank) suggest that the United Kingdom is experiencing a great normalisation. Its constutitional imbalance is finally asserting itself. A ship that has sailed forth for many years despite a strong tilt is finally listing towards the waves. Last year’s Scottish referendum—and the strong appetite for a rerun evinced at the recent Scottish National Party conference—suggests that it is already taking on water. EVEL may prove the point at which it tips too far; at which England’s reemergence accelerates and at which the ship capsizes”
Hereafter, I will use the acronym “SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT” to help prevent RSA.
Hilarious. So will there ever be Scottish MP, representing a Scottish constituency, getting the Mr or Madame Speaker job sensibledave?
Madame Speaker Mhairi Black sensibledave?
There will never be another Scottish UK.gov Prime Minister and there will never be another Scottish Mr or Madame Speaker in the Palace of Westminster.
Huzzah
“How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”
No, it’s not, it’s a matter for the UK Parliament, involving all UK MPs.
If England wants the same kind of exclusivity their MPs claim the Scottish Parliament has, then an English devolved parliament based on a similar model to the Scottish one is what is needed. If that solution was and is deemed by Westminster to be good enough for Scotland, then it’s bloody well good enough for England.
And that English Parliament better not have more powers than Scotland’s, because that would be yet another obviously unfair settlement, and such unrelenting unfairness is what has driven Scottish independence to where it is today.
I’m glad the WoS folk and others have the energy to challenge all this co-ordinated propaganda from Westminster and the MSM in Scotland. It’s hard to keep up with all the put downs and the hamstringing of our policies and representatives abilities to do the best for Scotland.
Well done to you all.
2 x SNP.
PS
It was done because we don’t understand. Aye right!
link to archive.is
Sensible Dave
To a point you are right looking askew at this, as in effect it’s just a bit of tinkering with the constitutional arrangements, and yes as the SNP demonstrate, best keep out of the internal affairs of another nation, as they do with their self imposed exile when purely english matters are discussed.
But in only concentrating on the actual structure of EVEL you are missing the bigger picture in this you are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilisation.
Ruby at 11.47
I didn’t say that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament. Of course they can’t.
I said “Scottish MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament”.
You have missed the point
Ahh the trouble EVEL is going to cause in Westminster and beyond. And here’s the really stupid part, Scottish MP’s only make up 9% of the total at Westminster. England has an inbuilt and absolute majority no matter if the government is Labour or Tory.
Considering the problems it will cause for the Tories and Labour, the fact it will speed up Scottish independence and the fact that the legislative outcome will be no different, it truly must be one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.
link to bbc.co.uk
Just noticed the Getty Image under the BBC shills thing, Why it matters, What you must think. Kilts and claymores. What a bunch of crooks they really are.
TD 11.47
You wrote “I think you are being disingenuous and you do actually get the point that Scottish MPs will be excluded from the English Grand Committee. This committee will have the power to veto legislation. It cannot initiate legislation, but the power to veto is considerable. If EVEL did not give power to English MPs, what would be the point?”
… to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.
Awful isn’t it!
After yesterday’s disgraceful EVEL crime against democracy how long till Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs have to wear armbands to identify themselves and prevent them entering the lobbies when EVEL business is being voted on?
Instead of Yellow Star Of David ones can I suggest Saltire, Welsh Dragon and Red Hand ones.
That raving nut job John Redwood made much of the injustice of Scottish MPs being able to vote on English matters since Devo in 1999. Perhaps he should be reminded that English MPs have been able to impose their will on Scotland and have done so for 308 years.
What would happen if said Redwood struck lucky in the Ballot for Private Members Bills and proposed one to Repeal The original Scotland Act resulting in the abolition of The Scottish Parliament? Given the Tory Majority and the likelihood that a substantial number of Labour MPs would support such a Bill would the WM government stand in its way?
Does EVEL mean that English MPs can pass bills that involve the spending of UK money on English projects?
Surely if this is the case then they would need to have their own parliament with their own budget?
All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.
I asked the wife for a twenty to but a few beers, she said no, then went out and bout herself a nice dress costing £70.
She’s my office for budget responsibility.
sensibledave says: Dave hasn’t “got it”
Well you have not got it.
Some issues have been removed from the UK Parliament due to devolution.
The attempt to limit which MPs can vote on which issues before the UK Parliament is not a workable way to re-balance devolution but to unbalance the UK Parliament.
If Westminster is going to have English votes for English Issues, why not Scottish votes for Scottish Issues, etc etc…
Robert Louis 12:02
“Considering the problems it will cause for the Tories and Labour, the fact it will speed up Scottish independence and the fact that the legislative outcome will be no different, it truly must be one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.”
… So what pray, is all the bitching about?
heedtracker:
“He’s actually quite scary but even so.”
None of them are scary. They’re sad clowns who would behave very differently were you to speak to their face.
In other words: cowards.
gus1940 12:04 pm
You Wrote: “After yesterday’s disgraceful EVEL crime against democracy how long till Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs have to wear armbands to identify themselves and prevent them entering the lobbies when EVEL business is being voted on?”
…..SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!
Jim says: 12:05 pm
You wrote “All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.”
…. Yes Jim – you’ve “got it” but, unfortunately, I don’t think you know you have!
… SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!
Chris Baxter says:
23 October, 2015 at 12:11 pm
heedtracker:
“He’s actually quite scary but even so.”
Most of them are hard core toryboys but Massie sometimes quite liberal, then BAM, he’s back in the far right game, is why.
To be fair, most of them are wetfarts and chancers.
link to twitter.com
Horatio here is interesting to watch how for the how and why far right UKOK propaganda works at its lowest, no mention of EVEL whatsoever, shock.
sensibledave at 12:02
So is it OK for the English-dominated UK parliament to pass laws that a majority of Scottish MPs do not want?
Total hypocrisy.
Compare the arrogance shown by the Westminster Establishment towards Scotland with the embarrassing fawning that took place when their Chinese master visited them earlier in the week. Classic public schoolboy bullying behaviour, straight out of Tom Brown’s schooldays.
sensibledave says:
You wrote “All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.”
…. Yes Jim – you’ve “got it” but, unfortunately, I don’t think you know you have!
_______
If I knew I had it I wouldn’t have asked the question so clarify your response.
Jim, yes it does. As long as the fiscal union remains – one Treasury which collects and disburses all money, one Exchequer, then there can be few ‘English’ laws without a financial implication for the whole of the UK. One example of an exception might be a fox-hunting ban in England. Other areas might be things like gay marriage or euthanasia.
But if a law is passed which involves money, then all of the UK will feel it, even if the law claims to be limited only to England and Wales.
The problem is the fiscal union. Until such times as we in Scotland have the sovereign right to set, gather and apply all our own revenues, then it will persist, made far worse by the unequal sizes of Scotland and England. If England sneezes, there’s tsunami in Scotland.
Bottom line.
English MP’s decide what is best for England.
They then go into a changing room ,put on their other clothes and decide what is best for Gt Britain.
Nice arrangement.——for England
Anagach 12:08 pm
You wrote: “The attempt to limit which MPs can vote on which issues before the UK Parliament is not a workable way to re-balance devolution but to unbalance the UK Parliament.”
…..SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!
OT
When are SNP parliamentarians going to grow a pair and stand up for themselves when appearing on the BBC?
Last week on “The Big Debate” Gordon Brewer constantly interrupted the SNP’s James Dornan and interrogated him, yet let Prof Tomkins and all the other guests ramble on unchallenged. Today, the SNP’s Drew Hendry is getting the same, and everyone else is allowed to ramble on.
John Nicolson MP and some of the party’s other media advisers really need to coach the parliamentarians and put some steel in them. They should say something along the lines of “Gordon, if you’d actually please let me speak, instead of constantly interrupting me. There’s no point in me being invited onto this programme if you constantly interrupt me every time that you invite me to comment”
Come on guys and gals, don’t take any BBC shit!
Xaracen at 11:58
“How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”
I think you misunderstand my point. At the moment English laws are passed by the UK parliament. But if England wanted their own parliament I do not believe there would be any opposition from Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. The words “How English laws are passed…” was meant to convey the constitutional options for England rather than to represent the current constitutional arrangement.
If England wanted to change their arrangements that would be a matter for them. Or if they want to continue to have their legislation passed by the UK unitary parliament, that’s fine as well. It’s up to them. But what is not acceptable is to meddle with the current UK parliament’s arrangements without the agreement of the other parts of the UK.
Hope that clarifies my meaning.
Jim 12:22 pm
You wrote “All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.”
and …. “If I knew I had it I wouldn’t have asked the question so clarify your response.”
… to clarify Jim, Your assertion i.e. that all MPs, no matter where their constituency is, should have a vote on where UK money is allocated – is exactly what EVEL does.
… SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!
Well I hope to see an Independent English Parly one day since that would mean and Indy Scots Parly.
I note from what I have seen of the dead tree Press front pages so far that English votes for Scots Laws has barely raised an eyebrow. I note that unelected Tory Peers votes for Scottish Laws barely rates a whisper. Well going by what I have seen today so far.
Well roll on the next piece of iniquitous Legislation to see it in practice for all to see.
Out of curiosity does anybody know what the next piece of Westmidden legislation will be to put the boot into us?
Sunniva says:
Jim, yes it does. As long as the fiscal union remains – one Treasury which collects and disburses all money, one Exchequer, then there can be few ‘English’ laws without a financial implication for the whole of the UK. One example of an exception might be a fox-hunting ban in England. Other areas might be things like gay marriage or euthanasia.
_______
Thank you for your response as I am sure there are lot’s of others in the same position as myself that are unsure what all of this entails.
I assumed EVEL to be exactly for matters of policy such as fox hunting, gay marriage, abortion law, etc.
I did not assume that it would involve the expenditure of UK treasury money on projects in England and certainly not on expenditure that would affect the block grant and formula system.
“… to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.
Awful isn’t it!
Well, if it is so important to you that a region of the UK needs its MPs to have such a veto, then it must be equally important to you that the other regions’ MPs have an equivalent veto. Otherwise it is just more of the “England is special” crap.
To provide such a veto only for English MPs and not for any of the others is nothing less than deliberate discrimination by the government of the UK. Well, bugger that!
sensibldave has no idea when he wasting his time. Great fun
sensibledave says:
23 October, 2015 at 12:32 pm
… to clarify Jim, Your assertion i.e. that all MPs, no matter where their constituency is, should have a vote on where UK money is allocated – is exactly what EVEL does.
________
Play Devil’s advocate and explain it from your opposition’s point of view so I can better understand what all the fuss is about.
The situation is crystalising:
Second Class? Or Second referendum?
Jim Says
HS2 on the Institute of Economic Affairs will cost £80 billion, Will this come under EVEL, I believe so as here there will be no Barnett consequentials, just as there were not for Crossrail or the Olympics.
EVEL reminds me when I caught my jumper on a piece of wire when jumping over a fence, as I walked on it unraveled, not to much but enough to ruin the jumper. Here’s hoping!
@sensibledave,
Presumably England will have it’s own Barnett allocation whilst the remaining is kept in a central pot ?
The Scotland Act 1998 has 6 parts, 132 Sections and 9 Schedules. The Scotland Act 2012 has 4 Parts, 45 Sections and 4 Schedules. Both were Acts of the UK parliament and were subjected to months of parliamentary scrutiny, amendment and several parliamentary votes. These two pieces of legislation between them define what can be dealt with in the Scottish Parliament and what is reserved to Westminster. They define devolution for Scotland in its current form.
EVEL has not been the subject of an Act of Parliament. There has been no consultation and minimal parliamentary scrutiny. The proposals have been steam-rollered through parliament using the absolute majority that the tories enjoy because of their 36.9% share of the popular vote in the UK. The undemocratic creation of an underclass of MPs has been brought about by a change in parliamentary procedures.
When legislation is proposed for Scotland only, the two Scotland Acts guide and inform whether it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. When legislation is required for England only, the Speaker will decide whether it is “English only” and therefore whether 59 Scottish MPs are excluded from the English Grand Committee.
But we are assured that this is all fair and reasonable and that we should not get upset about it.
SNP/SNP Yes.
sensibldave has no idea when he wasting his time. Great fun
He is but he’s also another UKOK activist fraud pretending to be joe public in the south east of teamGEnglandB.
JayR says:
23 October, 2015 at 12:28 pm
OT
This about being interrupted I noted on newsnight that
Shelley Jofre is also at it 4 times she butted in on Dorin but let Baillie ramble on SNP bad I think when asked a question say nothing and if asked why then they could I will only answer if you stop interrupting.
Iain More says:
23 October, 2015 at 12:33 pm
Well I hope to see an Independent English Parly one day since that would mean and Indy Scots Parly.
Ruby replies,
I think what were are seeing now is the Tories turning into the ENP. They certainly seem to have those David Cameron describes as ‘Little Englanders’ on their side.
‘The Tories do not need to convince the English that they are on their side. While David Cameron’s UK-wide majority is just 12 it is a massive 104 across England only.
Go to the “England profile” on the BBC’s website and you’ll read that “Scottish and Welsh nationalist movements have long been part of the political mainstream, and are seen as champions of legitimate historical national identities”. “On the other hand,” declares the BBC, English nationalism “has often been portrayed as a reaction to non-white immigration and seen as largely the province of the far right”.
Really? English patriotism has “often been portrayed” in the most negative way by the, ahem, BBC but the St George’s flag has long been reclaimed from racist skinheads; 61 per cent of English voters support English MPs having supremacy on English-only issues. Only one quarter are opposed. Wanting England to have some — just some — of the devolution that the rest of the UK already has does not turn Sassenachs into far-righters.
From Times article entitled ‘Jeremy Corbyn needs to learn to love England’
Dictatorship to rival North Korea is what the tories are aiming for.
link to politicshome.com
I sorely miss the “Women’s vote for Women’s Issues” in which a male speaker gets to decide what women’s issues are.
Dave McEwan Hill at 12:48 pm
You wrote “sensibldave has no idea when he wasting his time. Great fun”
On the contrary Dave, there are a few stragglers left who haven’t got a clue about how EVEL works – but most have “got it” and understand SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT now.
As for wasting my time, there will always be the Dave McEwan Hills of this world that do not have the grey matter to grasp relatively simple concepts – but that is a cross I will have to bear.
Sensible Dave is a great recruiting sergeant for the SNP. He makes most watchers of this site more determined to vote snp, snp in May.
@Iain,
Agreed. He makes perfecr sense——To himself only.
Where does EVEL leave the Labour party in Scotland now? Surely it’s time for them to break away completely, there is now no need for a “National Party”. Why have a Unionist party at all in Scotland?
As robert says “one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.” did no one tell them it’s a bad idea to pour petrol on a fire!
Nana Smith says:
23 October, 2015 at 1:02 pm
Dictatorship to rival North Korea is what the tories are aiming for.
Fascinating power struggle, all unreported by English media in Scotland. Its very mental really.
Toryboy world went weak at the knees over torygirl Laura Keunsberg, supersonic BBC politics boss giving China leader a hard time with
link to order-order.com
LK: “Why do you think members of the British public should be pleased to do more business with a country that is not democratic, is not transparent and has a deeply, deeply troubling attitude towards human rights?”
Chinese Premiers standing next to Pig Fanciers Cammers who a couple of weeks back ordered the execution without trial of UK citizens by killer robot drone planes. And how many are now dead, maimed, tortured, made refugee by UKOK Iraq invasion now?
link to dailymail.co.uk
Laura didn’t bring up any of the above, oddly enough.
Bob Mack says:
Definitely not!
As far as I am concerned, therein lies the problem.
I think we would all feel a lot better if English MPs were debating and passing legislation relating to England using money from an English budget!
On the face of it, that seems fair and reasonable. of course, ‘fair and reasonable’ doesn’t exactly feature in Tory thinking.
Joanna Cherry MP has pointed out that four Tories and two Labour MPs have been nominated along with six Members of the House of Lords to serve on a new Westminster body on human rights.
Given that Joanna Cherry is the Justice and Home Affairs spokesperson for the third largest party in UK Parliament
and was a senior QC and a Senior Advocate it is nonsense that Labour refused to support her inclusion as at least one senior Scottish legal figure on this committee.
More respect for Scotland?
MPs vote on the matter next Wednesday.
Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. In my view, the idea of English only laws is a chimera. Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, fox-hunting, pub closing times, age of consent – things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’. I personally have no beef with the people of England coming to their own views on such things.
But it’s the money they’re moaning about. They are moaning about Scottish MPs voting on English hospitals (funding). But as long as we are joined at the hip fiscally, then any changes to the English NHS, or things like funding for Crossrail, are going to affect the common pot.
It’s a case of England sneezing, and there being a tsunami in Scotland.
Plus, in reality, the votes of Scottish MPs has made a difference to the outcomes 0.65% of the time since 2001. According to the House of Commons Library.
So English MPs have had their way 99.35% of the time, and they think that’s unfair.
I don’t think the tories are on the side of the English. They are on the side of the financial establishment. That is the private establishment in charge of money creation and wealth extraction. There is plenty of deprivation down south.
What scotland needs to start doing, like the common weal are suggesting, is to start implementing what we can now. We also need to get our ducks in a row regarding currency for example.
We will have all the neoliberal ‘big guns’ pointing at us explaining in the MSM why it will never work. The ratings agencies will be foaming at the mouth talking about our junk status. To me that is fine – the same agencies gave Enron a clean bill of health…
We will be told that no one will lend to us except at high interest rates. This of course is utter horse shit.
If anyone wants to see a huge govt debt to GDP ratio see Japan and then try to work out how it is still ‘borrowing’ at around 0%.
The reason is simple – it has its own sovereign currency, can issue bonds all day long and can never default. UK is same and scotland would be with a sovereign free floating currency.
Iain says:
23 October, 2015 at 1:05 pm
Sensible Dave is a great recruiting sergeant for the SNP. He makes most watchers of this site more determined to vote snp, snp in May.
Ruby replies
That is if they read his posts! I see the name ‘sensible dave’ and think I’m not reading that shite!
What is Cloggins going on about! Womens votes!! Does Cloggins not know here place? Women and Scotland have to learn to be good little Stepford Wives. Mr Westminster makes all the decisions! Women and Scotland need to learn to stand by their man it’s what the majority in Scotland voted for.
sensibledave says:
…..SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT!
Your evolution from Trolling to Spamming is regressive.
But not unexpected.
Sigh, I am finding all of this constant crap wearing.
Anything and everything, every bloody day. SNP BAAAAAAD. Don’t matter whether it’s true or not, on and on it goes. I don’t even think anyone listens anymore.
Now, the absolute madness that is EVIL. I really and truly don’t think any of the numpties have thought this through. Oh well, they might reap the whirlwind now. God help us all.
O/T Where’s Robert Peffers? Is he all right? He did say a few topics back that he wasn’t just too well. Hope he’s okay.
Or mabye he’s like myself, and one or two others, just having a wee break from the crapfest.
The Scottish Government should bring in legislation for Nationalist Votes for Nationalst MSP’s leaving Conservitive, Labour and Liberal MSP’s as second class MSP’ in Holyrood.
“Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as ….. things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’.”
Precisely!
Otherwise, there is an element of taxation without representation.
@JLT 10.11am Thank you for that post, which is the clearest analysis of the problem with EVEL for Scotland that I’ve seen.
“If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.” AYE!
EVEL from the Conservatives. So fitting.
I used to live in the south of England and still have family there. Here is what the Conservatives stand for. They want to “conserve” what they’ve got, along with their narrow view of little England and they want to do it at all costs.
“Conservatism” is based on the principle there is not enough to go round – everything is scarce – conserve, conserve, conserve! In which case, they say, we’d better make sure we’ve got as much of it as we can get so we’re alright.
It’s a deep seated English belief that drove their colonialism and continues to drive the elitism of today. As their fields of influence have narrowed in modern times, the leaders and their hangers on have increased the extreme nature of their own wealth at the expense of the rest of us.
They’re also leaving high and dry the very many little Englanders who have been brought up with a conservative mentality. Ironically, both they and their masters believe there isn’t enough room for them all at the troughs.
They are left to bleat their hopeless, intolerant and vacuously arrogant beliefs at the rest of us, whilst slipping slowly down the greasy flagpole towards what they see as the unitiated masses.
That’s us. We in Scotland, with our talk of social justice, hope, responsibility and equality, are their darkest threat.
I have a message for those sad souls. There is enough. There is enough for all of us if we look to the well-being of all the people, stop warmongering, stop blaming and vilifying sections of our society and start sharing responsibility among us all; start valuing what each of us CAN DO, not judging each other for what we HAVEN’T GOT.
With EVEL, the leaders of the tribe have thrown their followers a bone they can chew on and then use it to try to beat us with if they like, but it’s just another hopeless, grubby distraction.
We’ve got hope and we’ve got a vision and that will triumph over EVEL.
scottieDog is spot on
Time to start laying Foundations.
National Bank we can trust for starters and nail the currency.
SNP needs to start upping their game. They still come across as a bit weak on economic issues and that’s what the Union prey on.
I hope they have a cunning master plan.
Jim says
“Play Devil’s advocate and explain it from your opposition’s point of view so I can better understand what all the fuss is about.”
Okay.
The SNP asserts that EVEL makes them second class citizen as far as being a members of the UK Parliament is concerned. They are distraught, that with the implementation of EVEL, democracy has died. As you can see from so many of the comments above, the SNP spin machine went into top gear and completely misled many of their members (check out their website and see my responses to each of the points made on the web site)
In actuality, SNP MPs, like all MPs gets to raise Bills. In addition, the SNP gets to vote on all bills brought forward by all Governments of any flavour. SNP MPS get to vote three times on whether a Bill, any Bill, is passed.
If, a Bill has been ruled as “English Only” a Grand Committee of English MPs will get involved in a separate debate attended only by English MPs.
This happens once a Bill has been passed by the House twice already.
That committee will then either vote for the Bill (and it carries on along its way), or vote to veto it.
Despite the wailing above, it is impossible to understand how anyone could possibly have a problem with English MPs voting for a Bill that has been passed by the UK Parliament.
So, the only issue arises if English MPs choose to veto a Bill that is an “English Only” issue. Some here on Wings think that is an outrage. The very idea that English MPs should be able vote to veto a law that only affects England is the end of the world, the Union is dead, and yet another example of English colonialism.
I disagree.
I saw footage this morning of Tommy Sheppard warning of the dangers of this vote going through. We all know now that it did but from the tone of the way that Tommy spoke gave the impression that he KNEW that the act of union was being broken.
There was ways that this could have been implemented but the simple step now of using the UK parliment instead of having bespoke E(nglish) MP and an English parliment building now renders the whole thing a farce and we are now in a situation where party members on all sides will have to remove themselves from the chamber because they hold a Scottish seat!!
I’ve seen the SNP’s statement this morning … interesting times are ahead of us.
Sunniva 1:27 pm
You wrote “Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. In my view, the idea of English only laws is a chimera. Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, fox-hunting, pub closing times, age of consent – things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’. I personally have no beef with the people of England coming to their own views on such things.”
… Good. We are making progress.
But then you wrote “But it’s the money they’re moaning about. They are moaning about Scottish MPs voting on English hospitals (funding). But as long as we are joined at the hip fiscally, then any changes to the English NHS, or things like funding for Crossrail, are going to affect the common pot.”
It’s a case of England sneezing, and there being a tsunami in Scotland.”
… then you lost it again! SMPWVOEOLDEOLWOBPITUPISMVFT
sensible – I despair. The whole point is that the process for deciding if a bill is English only is that the Speaker just makes a decision. It is not a proper process, it is not subject to scrutiny, there are no proper guidelines, the decisions could be arbitrary and whimsical. And the change has been introduced without proper legislation, but instead on a parliamentary nod.
I could try your technique of creating a lengthy acronym so here goes. (The block capitals by the way make it more important and meaningful as you know). IF YOU WANT EVEL CREATE AN ENGLISH PARLIAMENT. So that’s IYECAEP. Or maybe I’ll make that IYE CrAEP. Or just Aye, Crap.
sensibledave says:
“that is a cross I will have to bear”
no it isn’t, you’re free to fuck off anytime you like
@Marie Clark
Robert posted on previous thread at 11.44pm
I am utterly delighted and totally relaxed that EVEL has arrived for several reasons
1] A new faultline has been established right through the chamber of the House of Commons, where previously chambers in just Holyrood, Cardiff & Belfast were to Westminster mostly out of sight & out of mind.
2] Every political consideration and debate will now include a consideration over whether Scotland has an interest in it – many will largely be indirect and therefore continual disputes will break out as to whether Scottish MPs will be allowed to vote or not. And even if they are, loads of Tory MPS will argue we should publicly.
Everyone is making the mistake that every issue will be cut-and-dried, or that either side will be happy with every decision made. The Britnat Press will be full of whether Scots etc should be excluded – ‘Don’t let the Jocks vote this down’. The Speaker’s job is about to get a whole lot busier, and may become impossible.
3] The separation of non-English MPs from English bills makes it likelier than ever that England will go in an even more divergent route than the rest of UK, particularly with regard to failing health trusts.
Yes. Scottish etc MPs will be able to debate & vote, but if they are vetoed it will be clearer to all how little influence they can have, and that we are wasting our time
4] The fact that the Tories have been able to vote this through in less than half-a-year without White Papers, royal commissions, referendum or even any form of public consultation beyond the GE – while the rest of us have had to campaign, lobby,march, vote and wait for DECADES, and are still waiting for the diluted inadequate Smith Commission pish – will not be lost on anyone.
Who knew the West Lothian Question was so easy to answer. We are no longer partners but minorities
Independence is closer now
@sensibledave (first reading = no debate)
“Formal introduction – no debate on the Bill
First reading is the first stage of a Bill’s passage through the House of Commons – usually a formality, it takes place without debate.
First reading of a Bill can take place at any time in a parliamentary session.
What happens at first reading?
The short title of the Bill is read out and is followed by an order for the Bill to be printed.”
link to parliament.uk
Jesus Christ, the English establishment have even got the “Windsors” in on the SNPBAAAD. Scotland to poor, to stupid, to wee and handing out wee butchers aprons to the kids in Dundee.
Either the English establishment are trying to provoke another referendum while they have a chance of winning and thereby close off any nonsense about another within 30years. A lot of oil money will be plundered in 30 years.
Or they are suffering loose bowel syndrome, very acutely.
Sensitive dave
WE GET IT,
and most here don’t have a problem, we are by and large SNP supporters so agree, and don’t meddle in internal affairs for england. Its Labour Liberal and Tory mps from scotland who voted on english only matters!
But you don’t get what this represents, the westminster union is built on the premise that all MP are equal, for the first time rules have been put in place to exclude (for key parts of the debate) based on nationality, do you not see how that fundamentally changes the union! This is a recipe for disaster, I love it! I want to end the Union, looks like David Cameron agrees!
There has just been a vote in the HoC 16 for 1 against. 40 members in the house and only 17 members vote on progressing legislation. An error of comedies.
Quakeawake says:
Good post, well done.
sensible dave: gwepmjl!1/)&epmAM
Papadox says:
“the English establishment are trying to provoke another referendum while they have a chance of winning and thereby close off any nonsense about another within 30years”
That thought occurred to me. I posted something (this or last few threads) saying something similar.
It could also be part of current assault on the SNP pre May. Challenge, and if nothing is done about it, it shows shows the SNP won’t stand up for Scotland like the claim (or something like that).
It could be provocation. What to you do with someone who annoyingly stays on the straight and narrow rising above bad behaviour (like the SNP try to do) ? Simple, you try to provoke them into over reaction.
We can get carried away with conspiracy theories! However, anything is possible in the defence of the realm.
@sensibledave
You appear to be ignoring this bir from the SNP explanation of EVEL:
“Stage four
The Bill will go through its fourth stage before progressing to the House of Lords.
? Post House of Lords stage
The legislative process in the House of Lords is unchanged. However any amendments made in the House of Lords which relate exclusively to England, or England and Wales, will be subject to a double majority vote.
This means that these amendments will have to be supported by a majority of English, or English and Welsh MPs, as well as a majority of all MPs, before they become law.
Finance Bills will also go through this new procedure.”
Note also “Finance Bills will also go through this new procedure.”
That would appear to include the Budget …
I wonder if there’ll be a follow-up to EVEL called ELVL – English Lords for English Votes – excluding Michelle Mone and her ilk?
@Sensible Dave,
Greetings.
Apologies if I have missed this point being raised in answer to your POV on EVEL, but my eyes were starting to bleed.
Why should English MPs have a veto over English matters when *every* amendment put forward by the SNP to the Scotland Bill was defeated by English MPs who didn’t even show up for any of the debates?
Missed any points being raised by the MPs representing the people most affected by the Bill. Had no thought for engaging or being willing to listen and possibly be convinced by cogent argument.
Voted on matters which were particular to Scotland only.
An English Parliament would be great. They could be allocated a budget, forbidden from borrowing, have to survive and allocate spending from within a fixed amount.
There would have to be a lot more transparency and everyone in the UK would be able to see where the money goes…
Ahh right…
Still, please tell us how you felt when the Scotland Bill was forced through by English MPs. Did you think that was fair?
Sunniva says:
23 October, 2015 at 1:27 pm
Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. In my view, the idea of English only laws is a chimera. Only if laws have no fiscal and financial implications, such as euthanasia, abortion, gay rights, fox-hunting, pub closing times, age of consent – things that are of an ethical or moral nature – and are restricted only to England – can they really be referred to as ‘English-only’. I personally have no beef with the people of England coming to their own views on such things.
___________
Thank you, this is my take on it exactly which is why England should have it’s own assembly/parliament in which such matters would be devolved to that assembly/parliament.
They would also have their own block grant and formula system to fund policing, health and education, etc.
As it is there is no way that England should have free access to UK treasury funds without the approval of the MPs of all member states.
“But it’s the money they’re moaning about. They are moaning about Scottish MPs voting on English hospitals (funding). But as long as we are joined at the hip fiscally, then any changes to the English NHS, or things like funding for Crossrail, are going to affect the common pot.”
_______________________
NHS funding in England is indeed a matter for England but if it affects the block grant of another country then it no longer becomes an English only matter.
Again, England needs to have it’s own parliament with it’s own budget and responsibility which do not impact on other members of the union.
“It’s a case of England sneezing, and there being a tsunami in Scotland.”
_________
This is maybe one tsunami that they have lost control over and the consequences for the so-called Union are not looking good.
“Plus, in reality, the votes of Scottish MPs has made a difference to the outcomes 0.65% of the time since 2001. According to the House of Commons Library So English MPs have had their way 99.35% of the time, and they think that’s unfair..”
_____________
I have never understood how before the Scottish parliament was reconvened there was never any mechanism in place to make sure that all member states were represented fairly and equally.
Renegotiation of our membership of the UK needs to happen if there is any hope for the Unionists; the only way forward is for England to have it’s own parliament and all matters bar defense and foreign affairs to be devolved to each member state.
Obviously there would have to be a UK parliament to deal with foreign affairs, defense budgets and block grants to member states, etc, but this would have to comprise of a democratically elected and equal number of MPs from each member state.
It also occurs to me that the independent parliament pay commission whatever they’re called, will soon be insisting English MPs, as they’re doing the business for the UK Parliament and the proto-English parliament, they should get a 75% pay rise?
Not forgetting Cameron is Prime Minister of the UK AND Prime Minister of England. Oh, plus all the ministers and shadows and secretaries of State. Oh what fun we all had.
That reminds me by the way, I managed to get “WOS” into the Herald forum as a “typo” for “SOS” when talking about Mundell. I wonder what I thought the “W” stands for in his title? Well, W is just above S on the keybiard.