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Wings Over Scotland


The triumph of EVEL

Posted on October 23, 2015 by

We’ve been having a bit of a ponder over the effective passing into law of English Votes for English Laws, which has been remarkably little mentioned in Scotland’s media today. The BBC website has nothing about it at all on its Scotland front page, forcing readers to dig down into the politics section for some coverage.

The Daily Record, as far as we can tell, doesn’t have a word about it – nothing in the print edition and nothing online, even though as we write this it’s gone 3pm the next day, around 21 hours after the vote was passed in the Commons. The Scottish Daily Mail relegates it to a small feature taking up barely a third of page 12, even though the move supposedly ends the Union.

evelmail

The Scotsman gives it a tiny corner of the front page and half of page 6, and only the Herald treats it as a lead story, although even there it only gets a couple of columns, less space than that devoted to a picture of David Cameron and the Chinese president Li Xinping having a pint in a pub.

All of which is remarkable, because it’s arguably the most radical change made to the UK constitution since the creation of the devolved Parliaments 16 years ago, and perhaps more significant even than that.

Because without a shadow of a doubt, EVEL divides MPs into two categories – those representing English constituencies, and everyone else. Until now, no MP in the House of Commons has ever been prevented from voting on any bill. And while the Tories have handled it cleverly so that that’s technically still the case, those votes will now be subject to a veto on which only England’s MPs have a say.

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the move in its own right – it’s hard to dispute the injustice of when Scottish Labour MPs voted to impose tuition fees on English students, for example, knowing that their own constituents wouldn’t suffer, although EVEL solves a problem that in reality barely exists – what it unquestionably means is that no MP from a Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish seat can realistically ever again be the Prime Minister of the UK.

Any such PM who brought forward a bill, voted on it, and then had to stand helplessly and impotently by as English MPs vetoed it would be a laughing stock and a lame duck. They would look absurd. The “optics” of the situation, as charmless pundits are fond of saying these days, would simply be untenable.

Much the same would apply to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Secretaries of State for Health and Education and the Home Secretary, who oversees non-Scottish justice. In other words, most of the great UK offices of state would be de facto out of bounds to British citizens representing three of the four “nations” of the Union.

Had it been in force sooner, EVEL could therefore have ruled out some of the most famous names ever to wield power in the Houses Of Parliament, including nine of the last 20 Prime Ministers:

Winston Churchill (at one time MP for Dundee)
James Callaghan (Cardiff South East)
Sir Alec Douglas-Home (Kinross and Western Perthshire)
David Lloyd George (Caernarvon Boroughs)
Ramsay MacDonald (Aberavon)
Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy)
Andrew Bonar Law (Glasgow Central)
Herbert Asquith (East Fife)
Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman (Stirling Burghs)

(Churchill was of course MP for English seats during his actual leadership, but that’s only an accident of timing. The others all sat in Scotland or Wales as PM.)

While readers may argue the merits of the various individuals listed above (and all of those in the other offices previously noted), most are lauded by history. And from now on, the triumph of EVEL will be that such good men can do nothing.

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    1. 23 10 15 17:09

      The triumph of EVEL | Politics Scotland | Scoo...

    2. 24 10 15 17:26

      What EVEL have the Tories done? | Arc of Prosperity

    3. 24 10 15 18:23

      The EVEL That Men Do | A Wilderness of Peace

    4. 28 01 17 16:11

      Scots Wha Hae – updated – scottishmomus

    204 to “The triumph of EVEL”

    1. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent.

      “And from now on, the triumph of EVEL will be that such good men can do nothing.”

      Now that is the work of a true wordsmith 🙂

      London Labour could of course give an undertaking to reverse EVEL should they ever get the chance. For now, they will keep their heads sown and mouths shut, as with most issues.

    2. I listened to the debate in PARLIAMENT yesterday and was surprised by the SNP members who spoke against the proposal. Is there not a possibility that EVEL will backfire on the English MPs by encouraging the Scottish voters to call for another referendum sooner rather than a time in the future?

    3. McBoxheid says:

      The Scottish Parliament should recipricate. MSP’s representing UK wide parties shouldn’t get to vote on Scottish matters, i.e. at all. On anything. Their interests are not in the interests of Scotland, they are in the interests of Westminster and the Union. The SNP should all resign their seats, or at least leave them vacant to return the contempt that has been shown to them.

    4. Zorbathejock says:

      Yet English MP’s can sit on Scottish committees and legislate even though they only have one Scottish MP

    5. Itchybiscuit says:

      As far as the ‘Union’ is concerned, this has to be the most damaging hissy fit by a politician I’ve ever seen. Let’s not beat about the bush here – announced the day following our lost referendum, it was basically Tory-Boy saying; ‘The UK parliament is the power in the land and I’m jolly well going to prove it. I’ll teach those Jocks a thing or two about where power REALLY lies’.

      Of course, anyone with half a brain can see – at some future point – the end of this horrible, one-sided union was precipitated on Thursday 22nd October 2015 by a what? Standing Order? Minor rule change?

      I don’t mind which process leads to independence – I’ll take leaving with a whimper if we can’t leave with a bang…

    6. FiferJP says:

      Didn’t Dave say it would happen in line with the Scotland Bill/Scottish powers?

      The Scotland bill is in a report stage ‘which will take place in the autumn’. There’s still about two months til that and then a third reading and they’ve already passed EVEL? I did not see that coming.

    7. Doug Daniel says:

      It also means that there can never be a UK government that doesn’t have a majority in England. Imagine Labour somehow managing to win back Scotland, gaining a slim UK majority thanks to 50-60 Scottish and Welsh MPs, only for every single bill on “English-only” matters to be vetoed because the Tories have more English MPs. It would be ludicrous. The same would be true if we’d had the result many folk expected in May – a Labour minority backed up by the SNP when required.

      There’s only one solution to the constitutional imbalances in the UK, and the sooner everyone just accepts it, the better it’ll be for us all in the long run.

    8. muttley79 says:

      The message from the MSM in Scotland: hear no EVEL speak no EVEL. The only way a Scottish/Welsh/NI politician can now vote on English matters is by getting selected and winning an seat in England. There will be no more Scottish Raj’s in office in England. The Tories have basically effectively introduced federalism but without the formal procedures in place, namely the creation of a formal English parliament, an elected second chamber to hold the representatives of the other nations in the UK, and more powers for Scotland/Wales/NI, in line with a federal state.

      In other words EVEL has made the situation even more complex, and is only a sticking plaster measure imo.

    9. crisiscult says:

      one of my problems with EVEL is that it ignores a fairly self evident reality or truth: that people vote for political parties, and they are voting for those political parties to govern and implement their policies in the UK parliament (despite people’s frequent confusion on what is governed in Scotland and what is UK level). They are not voting for an individual to represent them and their community. Now maybe some people will disagree with that, and maybe there are opinion polls that can settle it, but as I said, it seems self evident based on my own experiences, conversations, and so on.

      If we assume that the above is true, then the next point is that my party choice may not have the influence I wanted it to have, having believed the Better Together and UK Gov arguments that I should have a voice in the UK, that I should be standing in solidarity with workers etc in Liverpool or wherever. I’m actually now getting the signal that I should not have any influence on those. Personally, I think that’s fair if my country/region has a separate parliament governing on those areas. But,you really must have a constitution and a federal structure, with different people in the federal/UK level parliament from those in the state/regional parliaments. I’d go further and say that the political parties that stand for each should be separate and independent i.e. you can’t have a UK conservative party and a Scottish conservative party unless they are independent of each other. Maybe that’s a bit mad cos I’m not sure any country has that (hope to be corrected).

    10. Thepnr says:

      Surely the last remaining Labour supporters with any interest at all in politics are up in arms about this and will soon be supporting an Independent Scotland.

      Or maybe they prefer to ignore and remain as ignorant as ever. SNP BADDD!

    11. galamcennalath says:

      ronald russell says:
      ” Is there not a possibility that EVEL will backfire on the English MPs by encouraging the Scottish voters to call for another referendum sooner rather than a time in the future?”

      EVEL, and perhaps other things to follow, might be provocation to try to bring about an early referendum while WM believes it has a chance of winning (again).

      Alternatively, by not being provoked into action it could make the SNP and SG look weak and not defending Scotland.

      I would put nothing past WM now in their crusade to defeat Scottish self determination.

    12. Pam McMahon says:

      I want to know how a legal challenge can be mounted against the effective disenfranchisement of the citizens of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, by denying the voting rights of their representatives in the UK parliament.

      Is my view to be decided by the Speaker, on whether something I am already paying for as a taxpayer, will be an “English-only” matter? So, one man, of whatever political flavour, will decide what the elected representatives of Scotland will be allowed to vote on?

      I would crowd fund a judicial challenge to this nefarious standing order. It seems to be the only way to get a hint of democracy in the current system, as we found with Carmichael. You’re Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish. Pay twice for the same democracy you only have to pay once for in England.

    13. Alan says:

      Took a look to see what they were writing in the Torygraph. Doesn’t get much space except in the comments section:

      Still, it is the logic of estrangement, not cohesion: in effect, “if I’m not allowed to touch your train set, I won’t let you tell me how to fly my kite”. The claim by Evel’s champion, the Commons leader Chris Grayling, that it creates a stronger Union is clearly laughable. The opposite is true: we are watching the piecemeal erosion of the constitutional fabric of the United Kingdom, like an old tapestry left out in the rain and picked at by birds.

    14. Danny says:

      I take it this will also mean that no one from Wales or Scotland could ever lead one of the unionist parties. There would be no point as they could never be PM.

    15. yesindyref2 says:

      There is of course a way back that saves the Union, at least for a few years. That’s if Mundell meantime has not only removed the veto clauses from the Scotland Act, but beefed it up substantially, enough to make the ordinary punter think again.

      If it had FFA that could possibly set back the SNP for the Holyrood Elections, they’d have to be very careful in this time not to go too far on EVEL. FFA should be able to make EVEL totally acceptable, and in fact, normal.

      FFA could also halt the steady increase in YES support and, since some of the YES voters were really Devo-Maxers, could turn them back to NO on a kind of “wait and see, give it a chance” basis.

      At the same time the UK Government would announce talks with the NI and Welsh governments about increasing their powers.

      Is it likely to happen? I don’t think so.

    16. muttley79 says:

      @Doug Daniel

      Your point about how there cannot be a UK government now without a majority in England is the key one imo. As I said in my last post, with EVEL the Tories have introduced effectively a federal system, without creating the formal structures and procedures required for any stability. In effect it is like a builder who does not bother to construct a foundation, but starts straight away to build a house. They have simply not thought it through at all. No wonder the media in Scotland do not want to discuss it.

    17. blackhack says:

      A sad day for democracy…We’ve always been treated as second class citizens by westminster, But now it’s enshrined in law..

      Time for that second independence referendum.

    18. IndependentEngland says:

      EVEL is unworkable nonsense. England needs her own English Parliament Government and English First Minister

    19. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, “no taxation without representation”.

      It seems Great Britain learnt NOTHING from the American War of Independence.

    20. jimnarlene says:

      Tick tock……..

    21. raineach says:

      The Union IS ended. Britain is no more. In Britain all British people are equal and govern the United Kingdom. Now only English MPs have a vote. And that is not Britain

    22. Graeme Borthwick says:

      There are now two unions…one is English and the other is non-English. The 1707 Union has ended.
      Thank you David Cameron.

    23. yesindyref2 says:

      @Doug Daniel, @muttle79
      Yes, it’s not just Scotland that is given a “constitutional crisis” by this, it’s the UK as a whole come 2020.

      Say Tories have a majority in England, but Labour have the majority over the whole UK (forget the SNP for this), who gets to form the Government, who does the Queen ask to form her Government, and who gets to be Prime Minister of the UK, if he/she can’t command a majority perhaps, on English only matters?

      They’re screwed.

    24. Taranaich says:

      Aneurin Bevan represented Ebbw Vale (South Wales) from 1929 – 1960.

      He was Minister for Health from 1945-1951.

      During which time he spearheaded the formation of the NHS.

      You do the maths.

    25. MajorBloodnok says:

      The MSM’s near silence on this tells you all you need to know – even if it is merely the ‘optics’ that are the issue (and let’s face it, British politics these days is nearly all about how things look rather than how things are).

      Remarkable though that EVEL basically stuffs Labour and the Daily Record can’t bring itself to discuss it. The British Establishment and the BBC have just characterized this as another SNP grievance issue, thus diminishing and trivializing it.

      One thing is that as this is only a standing order then presumably a different Government or majority could change it back again – assuming Labour ever get back into power that is.

    26. muttley79 says:

      @Pam McMahon

      Why would any independence supporter want to put in a legal challenge to EVEL? It gives us another stick with which to beat the British establishment, confirms to everybody just how unequal the Union is, and is a further boost to independence. Of course the SNP have to pretend to be against EVEL for appearances sake, but it is a major boost to independence. Unionist politicians in Scotland know from now on they will have to stand and win in a constituency in England to hope to advance far at all.

    27. brewsed says:

      On Thursday 22 Oct I listened briefly to the R4 six o’clock news where this was the lead story and was intrigued / perplexed by the strange button-lipped presentation where great care appeared to be being taken to follow the government line without any critique and to never say “Evel”, despite that being the common acronym. Not being a licence fee player I haven’t listened to any live radio recently; maybe all BBC R4 presenters now sound stiff button-lipped throwbacks to an earlier era.

      My opinion is that, providing the residents of Scotland get to be fully informed about EVEL (by no means certain), that this can only hasten independence – so who are we to complain if WM votes to shoot itself in the foot, just leave one spare for the shenanigans that will follow Brexit.

      Tick Tock

    28. yesindyref2 says:

      Graeme Borthwick says: “There are now two unions…one is English and the other is non-English. The 1707 Union has ended.”

      Sounds like a call for Robert Peffers. I think you might be right, the UK Government has broken the Treaty of Union, it is defunct, it exists no more, it is a dead parrot.

      Now all that remains is for the reconvened Scottish Parliament to repeal the Act of Union.

      Good grief, and I’m a believer in referendums 🙁

    29. Thepnr says:

      Only one way to combat this and that is to vote for Independence.

      the work MUST start now before the next referendum is even announced. That will be done to us, not the SNP nor any yet to be announced official campaign.

      Pick your target, be it a relative, friend, neighbour, colleague or enemy. That is now our job until the next Referendum. Give the person you choose the facts and the comfort he/she needs as you see them. Be gentle or tough when required 🙂

      Other than the good Scot’s tongue their is nothing else on the horizon that can combat the states relentless propaganda.

      Take them down one at a time, then we will win.

    30. Paul says:

      Obviously wee Ruthie and her ally Kezia are OK with this their silence is deafening.

    31. Sunniva says:

      It’s the veto powers that now makes the arrangement assymetric. When we had the Scottish Grand Committee, now the Scottish Affairs Committee, which is, by the way, dominated by English MPs, we didn’t have the power to veto legislation relating only to Scotland. Now there is a proposal for an English Grand Committee, to discuss England-only legislation, they get veto powers!

      So if a future Labour government which didn’t actually have an English majority tried to close down a nuclear plant in England, it could be vetoed by English Tory MPs.

      Energy is not a devolved area. If a future UK government decided to build a nuclear plant in Scotland, which we did not want, the Scottish Affairs Committee, even if it contained only Scottish MPs, would not be able to veto it.

    32. Angra Mainyu says:

      Maybe someone can help.

      I understand the assumption that Scottish, Welsh, and Irish MPs would be barred from taking the offices mentioned, including that of PM, and I can see that it is implicit in the legislation; and, for the record, I agree it is hard if not impossible to imagine a scenario where a PM from Scotland might lead a government and take responsibility for policy that he himself would not be allowed to vote on and support, but is there anything in the grim details of EVEL that actually says it wouldn’t be allowed?

      Is there anything in statute or anywhere else that might throw a spanner in their works with this? I’d expect that there would be. So much for the PM being first amongst equals. I’d like to hear a constitutional expert throw some light on this, it seems unworkable, but the problem there is that most of them are establishment mouthpieces.

    33. invalid username says:

      the revolution will be digital

    34. Keith Farrell says:

      The real problem is now one of law. The Act of the Union is now in breach. As such. Scotland is no longer part of the Union. What the Tories have done for us is given us our freedom. The sooner the powers that be realise this the better. We can now insist on our full share of the revenue. Including vat.
      Finally we should also make it clear that only parties registered and active in Scotland can be part of our elections in May. London based parties are excluded.
      Scotland looks after its own

    35. Ken500 says:

      What will happen when Tories lose a majority but all Labour MP’s can’t vote? Not likely to happen soon.

      The Labour MP’s that are in favour. It is just spiteful and petty.

      It makes Independence easier.

    36. Frann Leach says:

      Often when I find out the latest Tory policy, I despair at the stupidity and viciousness of their approach to anyone not in their class. This is just another one of those, but hopefully will lead to better results than most of the rest.

    37. Murray McCallum says:

      Will the effective creation of an English parliament within the UK parliament be a comedy or a tragedy?

      Maybe a bit of both depending on how you look at it?

    38. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, having read LPW’s latest blog, he thinks EVEL is empty, nothing, makes no difference – except perhaps to enrage the English when their vote is overturned by all MPs voting at the end to deny them their will. So sensibledave had a point in the other thread.

      http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/

      But I think the Rev’s point is still valid; no party could realistically have Scottish MPs in Ministerial roles – the Cabinet for instance, is expected to vote with the Government.

      So even if not legislatively discriminatory or “2nd class”, in practical terms, it is.

    39. Capella says:

      Time for that opinion poll with an EVEL question?
      Now that Scottish MPs are excluded from decisions on legislation which the Speaker considers “English”, thus ending the Treaty of Union, should Scotland be an independent country?

    40. Graham MacQueen says:

      In all honesty, if the passing of the EVEL Bill, in effect, puts an end to the Act of Union then the ONLY sane, logical step left for Scotland and her people is to declare independence.

      I can’t see how the reasons used thus far for not declaring UDI are applicable any more. Investments will flood into an Independent Scotland and the large majority of people are politically mature enough and actively engaged to accept and understand such a move.

      How much more ridicule does the Scottish population need to take before it is decided that we CAN govern ourselves?

    41. Mike Fenwick says:

      Membership of the current Scottish Affairs Committee numbers 11, of whom 4 MPs were elected in Scotland with the remaining 7 MPs NOT elected in Scotland.

      Strike you as evil – or just plain ridiculous?

    42. Just how much contempt are we expected to take from Tory Westminster before we hit back I,would remind them of an old saying Beware the fury of a patient man and ot but has any other country in the world produced so many ("Tractor" - Ed)s?q

    43. muttley79 says:

      @Major

      The problem for Labour is that they know they might not be back in power at Westminster for a long time. Even if they do come back to power soon, then history shows that they do not really change many of the things the Tories have done previously, from privatisations, de-regulation of banking to trade unions laws. Even if they did reverse the standing order, it would be reversed as soon as the Tories got back in all likelihood. Some blairites are already talking about an English parliament.

    44. yesindyref2 says:

      A comment from LPW’s blog:

      If I understand correctly. A UK Lab govt with a minority of MPs in England, could be stopped by the Tories from introducing a single piece of England only legislation. England in effect would have no govt, but the UK, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would?

      So it’s possible that England suffers more than Scotland does, and is worse off than before EVEL, which was supposed to address the imbalance, not make it worse.

      Which turns the “West Lothian Question”, into the “East Sheffield Question”.

      I suggest England calls for a Referendum on Independence.

    45. Thepnr says:

      @Keith Farrell

      The real problem is now one of law. The Act of the Union is now in breach. As such. Scotland is no longer part of the Union.

      Interesting, can you expand on that?

    46. mealer says:

      Doug Daniel,Muttley
      If a Labour Government depended on Scots MPs for a majority,wouldn’t they just change standing orders back again?

    47. muttley79 says:

      I honestly do not see why independence supporters should be getting angry with the introduction of EVEL. Sure Scottish MPs are now second class citizens at Westminster, but then so are Welsh and Northern Irish ones now as well, and the majority of them are diehard unionists. The press know fine well that EVEL is bad news for the Union. We have to remember that as independence supporters and voters, we want to see an end to Scottish MPs being at Westminster anyway. We are down there to eventually settle up, and not to remain there.

    48. PortJim says:

      I have heard the Heathrow / Gatwick 3rd runway touted as the kind of thing our 2nd-class MPs will be barred from voting on.
      I imagine that the Thames Tideway sewer, the Lower Thames Crossing bridge, the Mersey Gateway bridge and the extension of the Northern tube line to Battersea would also be seen as “English only” – it’s hard to argue against that.
      So why are all these mega-expensive projects funded from the National Infrastructure Plan? The new Forth crossing isn’t (we – the Scottish Government – have to pay for that from our pocket money) and it is equally strategic!
      If I’m paying part of the bill, I want a say in what’s ordered off the menu.

    49. Papadox says:

      I think we may have been hoodwinked with the conivence of the Labour Party & the Libdems. Should labour ever return a small majority to Westminster with the aid of SLAB MP’s this trick could be undone just as quick as it was achieved.

      It’s just a mechanism to allow the Westminster establishment to retain their control of government through their chosen agents Conservative, Labour & Libdems. And keep the jocks on the naughty step while they bleed us dry and rebuild England “SE” with “Scotch” oil money. To stupid???

      Hence labour are pretty relaxed about it. At least the ones in the know are!

    50. JLT says:

      And from now on, the triumph of EVEL will be that such good men can do nothing.

      Stuart …we are the good men who will oppose this change, even if it can only be done verbally or in written protest form.

      There has always been opposition to a state, no matter how totalitarian the state may be. And sometimes, a state may just push its luck too far. Who knows what nonsense awaits around the corner?

      After all …the rather explosive combination of ‘Conservatives’ + ‘EVEL’ must surely be deemed as ‘combustible’. I can’t for a second see the Tories not abusing the system to suit their ‘own’ needs …and then after that …England’s.

      Something will give. Human stupidity in an abused system will surely lead to a reaction from a certain action. It usually always does. Somewhere down the line, the Tories will walk into a trap of their own making.

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      So, basically, it’s possible that the main losers from EVEL will be the Tories, and the main winners the Campaign for an English Parliament:

      https://thecepreview.wordpress.com/

      who haven’t cottoned on yet to the possibility of the English MP voters, being then outvoted by the mass UK voters in a later stage.

      Hee heeh hhee heee heeeh hhe hhe hhheeee heeee haaa haaaa haa bwahahahahahahaha

    52. yesindyref2 says:

      … haaa haaaa haa ha ha ha ha

      Oh dear. I’ve wet myself with the tears of laughter.

      Clean-up on aisle 6.

    53. Cactus says:

      Graeme Borthwick @ 16:55hrs

      There are now two unions…one is English and the other is non-English. The 1707 Union has ended.
      Thank you David Cameron.

      Hi Graeme, aye, seems reasonable:

      1707 to now,
      EVEL until Independence Day.

      Go social media.. do your thang.

    54. muttley79 says:

      @mealer

      1) We don’t know how long Labour will be out of power at Westminster. 2) They do not usually reverse much Tory legislation/procedures etc anyway if they do somehow get back in power in 2020. 3) The Tories will likely try and protect and entrench what they have introduced anyway in terms of EVEL before then. 4). The Tories would likely take revenge when they got back in, in the event of Labour reversing the standing orders enabling EVEL. 5). Scotland might be independent before too long!

    55. Macart says:

      Nailed it in one Rev.

    56. DerekM says:

      hmmm just a thought but does this mean if there is no UK parliament and westminster is now the English parliament,then it is up to Wales,N Ireland and Scotland to get together and find a new home for the UK parliament and ask westminster the English parliament to have an election to send their representatives if they still want to be in the UK that is.

      If this really were a union of equals that would be what was happening just now,but then its never been equal democracy is for England only how dare you other nations want to take part dont you know you are mere regions of the UK ,England is the UK.

      Aye that will be fecking right

    57. Clootie says:

      They can only delay Independence now. It is annoying but EVEL only impacts on WHEN Scotland becomes Independent…in fact it may even have brought the event forward.

    58. scotsbob says:

      @McBoxheid
      “The Scottish Parliament should recipricate. MSP’s representing UK wide parties shouldn’t get to vote on Scottish matters, i.e. at all. On anything. Their interests are not in the interests of Scotland, they are in the interests of Westminster and the Union.”

      What an excellent idea. I would love to see that proposed, if for no other reason than to watch Labour’s reaction

    59. muttley79 says:

      I see LPW is saying that Labour can get rid of the standing orders in regards to EVEL when they get back into power. That is true, but EVEL appears to be very popular in England, at least as an idea, and a response to more devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. English nationalism has been growing since even before devolution. I think Labour would encounter growing difficulties if they keep on ignoring the English Question.

    60. HandandShrimp says:

      Has Gordon awoken from his slumbers to do some clunking yet?

      I think it was right for the SNP to vote against this but I can’t see it enhancing the Unionist cause much either.

    61. Donald says:

      It is unbelievable how little coverage this has received for something that changes our democratic process so greatly. If you didn’t believe until now that the press combine to diminish news that could unsettle the Union, surely this must now convince you.

    62. mike cassidy says:

      So now we have the Westminster building being used as

      1)a part-time UK parliament

      2)a part-time English parliament

      Why could a Scottish , Welsh or Northern Irish mp not be a Prime Minister under such an arrangement.

      The fact they would be sharing a building with a de facto devolved English parliament would not be a political barrier to dealing with UK issues.

      And, of course, the inevitable problems might force the issue of an actual devolved parliament for England.

      All part of life’s rich tapestry on the road to independence.

      ps

      On the other hand, is anybody still talking about English-constituencyless fizzy-faced Ruth as a future Tory leader?

    63. Taranaich says:

      @muttley79: I honestly do not see why independence supporters should be getting angry with the introduction of EVEL.

      Because we are still in the UK, and until we actually gain independence, we will still be at the mercy of the UK government’s decisions.

      People are dying because of UK welfare cuts, UK foreign policy decisions, UK energy policies. And now, the Scottish electorate’s representatives are being frozen out of participating from votes in the very parliament they were elected to represent, despite seeing the greatest mandate for a single party in a century.

      For my part, I’m angry on behalf of Welsh, Northern Irish and non-Tory English voters, because as Doug says above, the Tories have yet again gerrymandered the legislation to ensure even more power for their party. In the event of Scottish independence, our pals in Wales, Northern Ireland and a fair chunk of England will have to suffer the consequences of EVEL unless they get their act together.

    64. Hamish100 says:

      Posted elsewhere but relevant

      Select Committees including the Scottish Select will have English MP majorities.

      http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/scottish-affairs-committee/membership/

      Tory SOS for Scotland, labour shadow SOSS

      It is called the Westminster question.

    65. michael donnelly says:

      could anyone do a parody of elo’s evil women.into evel tory or similar

    66. DerekM says:

      EVEL in context is probably the right way forward for England ,EVEL itself is not the problem its where they are trying to implement it that is the problem.

      To be honest sometimes i wonder just what you get for all that cash on an Eton education,he must know that the UK parliament cant be the English parliament,he is either being belligerent or down right stupid.

      Be interested to see what our fellow Welsh and NI unworthies have to say about it all.

    67. Iain More says:

      I expect that certain Nawbag notables will love EVEL. I cant wait to see it in action. I cant wait to see what the Brit Nat Press and Media will invent to cover every bit of anti Scottish legislation the Tories and their allies in the Labour Party will cook up between them to appeal to English voters.

      Now totally off topic!

      I am enjoying the Talk Talk story. One of the companies that employed Blackmail against its Scottish customers in the run up to the Referendum is now in its turn being blackmailed.

      Karma is a bitch isn’t it!

    68. Robert Louis says:

      It was worth it, all that hype, and there we have it, the pun to end all puns regarding EVEL.

      “And from now on, the triumph of EVEL will be that such good men can do nothing.”

      Well done 🙂

    69. Garrion says:

      As I’ve misquoted before, never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.

      This one is a cracker.

    70. Robert Louis says:

      Poor Mundell, just as he thought his career was on the up, it now seems he will NEVER be prime minister of ‘England’.

    71. davidb says:

      Oy, careful now, anything which would have prevented that eejit Broon from becoming prime minister cannot be all bad.

      I think they are trying to provoke us to call indy2 prematurely. Since the Cons have a majority – and excepting fluffy they only represent English & Welsh seats – what exactly is the problem they think the measure resolves? Any future incoming government can repeal the law. The present Conservative administration is likely to be there for 10 years. We are likely to be leaving before then.

      I see it merely as provocation. While its good politics to big it up, in practical terms whats changed? English MP’s vote for English laws already. Now the Welsh, on the other hand, they’ve been pissed on.

    72. Alastair says:

      Scotbob @6.03
      @mcboxheid
      I refer you to my post at 1.34

      The Scottish Government should bring in legislation for Nationalist Votes for Nationalst MSP’s leaving Conservitive, Labour and Liberal MSP’s as second class MSP’ in Holyrood.

    73. Nana Smith says:

      @Taranaich

      Yes indeed and Rees Mogg wants Cameron to appoint another 150 lords to combat any dissent re the tax credits.

      https://www.politicshome.com/home-affairs/articles/story/cameron-should-appoint-150-tory-peers-if-lords-block-tax-credit-cuts-%E2%80%93

      Also the tories are planning to take 1.9m names off electoral roll.

    74. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s Democracy Jim, but not as we know it.

    75. Proud Cybernat says:

      EVEL – only if it is good or beneficial to England will a Bill have a chance of succeeding through WM and it will now be that way even if the other countries of the UK have a vested (even if indirect) interest in a particular Bill succeeding. In short, where there is a vested interest (and this WILL happen even in Bills that are ostensibly ‘England-only’) then only if England supports it will S/W/NI get it. That is what EVEL amounts to. ALL UK MPs can vote in favour one way only to find the English Grand Committee vetoes it.

      That is our new UK democracy.

    76. Ruby says:

      I would agree this is all about more power for the Tories.

      Would Cameron ever have proposed this if the Tories had 56 seats in Scotland?

      I can’t say I understand how this EVEL thing works but the way I see this Union arrangement with or without EVEL is that Scotland will never have much of a say at Westminster to me it seems we have English votes for everything.

      I’m not too bothered if the next Prime Minister of the UK is Scottish or not.

    77. muttley79 says:

      @Taranaich

      Yes, but we do not even want to be at Westminster anyway. Just because we are not independent at the moment, it remains our goal. We all knew that the Union was completely unequal before the Tories even had the idea of EVEL, now even those who are opposed to independence in Scotland are going to have to acknowledge that there is no equality there whatsoever. Now to independence supporters all that is obvious, but sadly to others it was not.

      @mike cassidy

      No Scottish MP (or Welsh or NI) could become PM and Chancellor etc because they will not be able to vote for the policies they and their party support under EVEL. They would be barred from voting on English issues.

    78. Thepnr says:

      One of the consequences of this is that could you ever see either the Tory of Labour parties electing a Scot as leader?

      Doesn’t look likely, so why should any greatly talented Scot wish to be part of either of these parties knowing that they will always be a bit part player?

    79. Ruby says:

      “And from now on, the triumph of EVEL will be that such good men can do nothing.”

      Good men can vote for Scottish Independence and come and do good work in Scotland.

    80. HandandShrimp says:

      Poor Mundell, just as he thought his career was on the up, it now seems he will NEVER be prime minister of ‘England’.

      Not even of his bit of “greater England” 😉

    81. heedtracker says:

      What’s next though, from Lady Mone of Mayfair to EVEL, the Vow fraud?

      What will EVEL have on the the psychology of opposition to tory Westminster? Scotland can no longer participate in a Westminster that said vote NO, or else

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-full-text-of-david-camerons-no-going-back-speech-9735902.html

      Vote NO or else Project Fear, we love you really, blah blah bleh

      “And as you stand in the stillness of the polling booth, I hope you will ask yourself this.

      Will my family and I truly be better off by going it alone? Will we really be more safe and secure?

      Do I really want to turn my back on the rest of Britain, and why is it that so many people across the world are asking: why would Scotland want to do that? Why?”

      Because we’re being fucked over old bean.

    82. Rock says:

      How long before we reach the Pravda GB set target of 60% support for independence to have another referendum?

      By the look of things, at least a generation.

      A majority of us are still too stupid, too wee and too poor to want independence.

      Never mind. We are still “sovereign”.

      Unlike the English who can make laws which we have to follow.

    83. skooshcase says:

      Yet more evidence that the UK’s – and, very much the majority of Scotland’s – media is hostile to Scotland. It is Scotland’s greatest enemy in its fight for independence. Never mind what the buffoons in Better Together did or said; it wasn’t them that achieved the No result last year, it was the UK’s media, broadcast and print.

      And having done so, so it continues… the lying, the scaremongering, the fearmongering day after day after day. But not too much today, just the odd piece of SNP-bad here and there. Quite unusual…

      But not when you understand the modus operandi. To the many independence supporters the silence from the MSM on EVEL – a huge and significant change to the constitution – is deafening. Yet, to the utterly devious bastards in the media, on EVEL silence is golden. Giving it front page coverage plus editorials calling it scandalous is the last thing they really want to do. Remember, in a propaganda war, what you don’t release information-wise is just as important as what you do release. Keeping the population ignorant of the truth for as long as possible is a useful weapon in any propaganda war.

      The UK’s MSM, as-is, is an enemy to Scotland’s rightful self-determination, and a powerful enemy at that. Yet, its strength is fading bit-by-bit as the Scottish people become ever more aware of its devious nature. Print sales are dropping like a stone. The BBC et al are trusted less and less.

      The internet is killing the MSM – and don’t they know it. Well, tough! They deserve their ultimate demise.

      Meanwhile, get on social media to spread the message. Tell as many of your contacts as you can. And ask them to do likewise. Inform as many as you can just what EVEL really means. You can be damn sure the MSM won’t!

    84. Alastair Wright says:

      That pub brave Dave and the Chinese President were in wouldn’t be called ‘The Pigs Head’ by any chance? On a more serious note passing the EVEL legislation is, for me, a material change in the treaty of union – who knows what the ramifications will be?

    85. muttley79 says:

      @Taranaich

      People are dying because of UK welfare cuts, UK foreign policy decisions, UK energy policies. And now, the Scottish electorate’s representatives are being frozen out of participating from votes in the very parliament they were elected to represent, despite seeing the greatest mandate for a single party in a century.

      Yes, but SNP MPs are still going to be able to vote against most welfare measures by the Tories at Westminster, and it is not going to stop people from dying, the same with foreign policy.

      For my part, I’m angry on behalf of Welsh, Northern Irish and non-Tory English voters, because as Doug says above, the Tories have yet again gerrymandered the legislation to ensure even more power for their party. In the event of Scottish independence, our pals in Wales, Northern Ireland and a fair chunk of England will have to suffer the consequences of EVEL unless they get their act together.

      Sorry but this sounds like the solidarity argument that unionists use against independence. Yessers are going to have to stop thinking that Scotland is somehow responsible for the rest of the UK’s problems, and that we are some kind of saviours imo. There is around 55 million people in the rest of the UK, why on earth should people in Scotland feel it is their responsibility to save the rest of the UK from themselves? They vote for who they want to.

    86. chris kilby says:

      ” The most radical change made to the UK constitution since the creation of the devolved Parliaments 16 years ago, and perhaps more significant even than that.”

      Sod that. It’s the most radical change made to the UK constitution since the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was established in 1801!

      And the sodding Daily Record doesn’t think it’s worthy of coverage? Presumably cos even they can’t blame the SNP for this one.

      Bastards!

    87. Harry McAye says:

      O/T I see Have I Got News For You continuing with it’s policy of booking political eccentrics as guests. Following on from the likes of Jacob Rhys-Mogg, Michael Fabricant, Farage and Godfrey Bloom, tonight we have Ruthie Tank Commander. Sides, prepare to split!

    88. Big Jock says:

      Guess what noone in my work was talking about this. Your average dim witted no voter relies on their news from BBC London HQ. If BBC down play it. EVEL can proceed without a no voter even noticing.

      Sadly we live in a nation where 50% of us passionately and often eloquently defend our nation. The other half could have their legs cut off by Westminster and still blame it on the recession.

      Half of our nation are just not interested enough to change anything. They think the UK is their oxygen supply because they don’t know any better. Salmond was correct we have to make independence happen. We can’t rely on that 40 to 50% to suddenly wake up and have an epiphany.

    89. Bob Mack says:

      Technically the UK government has breached the Treaty of Union on two levels

      Section 3 of the Treaty makes it very clear that Parliament in England is where decisions are made.
      By creating a further Parliament in Scotland with authority over several areas, they have broken the original intent of the Treatyi.e to centralise Government in England

      Someone on here mentioned the American No taxation without representation which brought to mind one of the main planks of the Treaty, that there should be equality in all taxation throughout the UK.

      The Conservatives have given the Scottish Government the power to raise taxation in Scotland,meaning we would be paying more than in England or the other parts of the UK.
      This is contrary to the Treaty. You can as far as I remember make allowances or reductions,but not increases to only one section of the population

      Such a fine mess

    90. Ruby says:

      heedtracker says:

      Because we’re being fucked over old bean.

      Ruby replies

      Do you think that it’s possible that the English electorate are also being fucked over but they think they ‘mustn’t grumble’ & just spend 24/7 posting on Scottish websites telling ‘Jockistanis’ what’s what?

    91. Dr Jim says:

      Does this mean Wee Ruthie will be Flitting Doon Sooth then coz that’s her ambitions bonked on the head as well

      Kezia’s got no choice but to come out and support Independence coz one day she might win an election and then what’ll she do with it

      Willie Rennie will want a committee on something for the middle way

      Of course the SNP MPs could just legally challenge every ruling the speaker of the house makes on which is or isn’t
      English only debates, I believe that’s allowed

      My My that would tend to delay everything and could even disrupt Parliamentary business if that were to be correct
      Absolutely no sarcasm intended (not)

    92. Dr Ew says:

      Know your place, Jocks, know your place.

      Be grateful you are part of English Empire and able to enjoy our largesse despite your perfidious whining.

      Kneel before us.

      (While we all kneel before the Chinese…)

    93. Dr Jim says:

      He will be Mingdell the Merciless high ambassador to the Conservative and China Party and Slayer of Scots

    94. ian mccubbin says:

      This EVEL Bill effectively dissolves the union as I see it. Simply put no MP of any party from 3 of states in UK can now hold any senior cabinet office. We have no effective democratic Constitution now. This creates such a material change which effectively gives Scotland thebsame position as Ireland had in early 20th century. It will be interesting to see if Angus Robertson and Pete Wishart tale this to Nicola Sturgeon to begin a campaign to inform all Scottish electorate of the position we are now in.

      The fact also of Scottish MPs not being in majority on Scottish Affairs committee is second material change go effectively make our Scottish Parliament ill equiped to govern now.

      So what way forward, UDI, inform educate electorate, civil and constitutional disobedience? Let’s face it the Tory government are already operating the latter.

      So I look forward to interesting months and hope the backbone of SNP is strong and flexible. It is about to meet its biggest test I feel.

    95. Murray McCallum says:

      I suspect it difficult for “Scottish” Labour to champion reversing EVEL – it would further damage the chance Labour have of securing seats in England.

      It would be portrayed as Labour caving in, not being a party of England, etc.

    96. heedtracker says:

      Nothing again about EVEL on C4 news, which probably says more about that crew than anything else.

      The further right you go into to teamGB media, the less EVEL is mentioned. Neo fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal buried EVEL under piles of cats stuck up local trees for local people stories. Actual its local deer for local proud Scotbut people but same old ferocious toryboy stuff pouring out of that UKOK outfit.

    97. Glamaig says:

      quote from the National today –

      ‘Research by the House of Commons Library showed that of the roughly 3800 divisions between June 26, 2001 and March 26, 2015, only 25 votes would have gone a different way had Scottish MPs been barred’.

      That, folks, is how much influence we have in the Union. What’s the point in sending Scottish MPs to Westminster? England rules over Scotland.

    98. heedtracker says:

      Ruby replies

      Do you think that it’s possible that the English electorate are also being fucked over but they think they ‘mustn’t grumble’ & just spend 24/7 posting on Scottish websites telling ‘Jockistanis’ what’s what?

      Like most Scots, I’m what Americans call an Anglophile Ruby. English people are as politically diverse and as politically interested as Scots. They can spot tory bullshit just as quickly too.

    99. Tom Platt says:

      If we are only allowed second class MPs we Scots must be regarded as second class in UK by Westminster. If ever an issue needs to be communicated to every Scot it is this one, particularly when the MSM is ignoring it. It surely needs to be done somehow.

      Can it be done by the SNP Westminster MPs? Can they not write to each of their constituents setting out what EVEL means and claim the expense for doing so against their Westminster expenses in the normal way?

    100. Bob Mack says:

      The media are trying to desperately avoid this story.Why?
      The reason is obvious.It will hurt them badly in their pro union agenda.
      All the talk, promises ,assurances ,guarantees busted like a cheap balloon
      Do not let this story die.The lack of coverage tells you just how important it really is.

    101. orri says:

      Is is wise to point out the inherent problems with this legislation before it’s passed into law? Perhaps that’s the point of it … to fail at the first attempt in order to introduce corrections with less opposition.

      Let’s not moan too much about the present case where one man get’s a veto over Holyrood. The Westminster inspired response might potentially be to interpret the electoral make up of the committees as being a form of PR. So we’d have a split with Lib Dems, Conservatives Greens (depending on the size) and Labour having an equal say to the SNP with ties decided by the chair. Which would also be way round any potential back bench rebellions as, going from the summary, you don’t need every English or Welsh MP on the EVEL veto committee.

    102. Dan Huil says:

      It shows up the media in Scotland for what it is: gutless and duplicitous.

    103. Bryan says:

      You’ve been tied to the back of an English horse, dragged through the dirt and shit on for such a long time. 55% of you (maybe less now), seem not to mind the pain or the taste. I think you lost most of your best to America. Don’t give up the fight though. I’m hoping to see an independent Scotland before I die.

    104. This is the Briefing Paper from the House of Commons Library on EVEL,might help explain things.

      http://tinyurl.com/phqvej5

    105. Sheryl Hepworth says:

      Just a wee point here on EVEL… There is NO BRITISH constitution!! It does not exist!! The British constitution is whatever the ruling party doon the way want it to say!! There is not one written word of anything resembling a ‘British’ constitution so…. imo the next step for us in Jockistan is to get OUR WRITTEN constitution sorted NOW!!

    106. Macart says:

      Cameron is using Scotland to ensure Conservative majority in almost any situation. The side benefits as far as he is concerned is the sidelining of Scottish representation from the SNP and the creation of the two tier system.

      He’s just broken Labour’s back.

      And after all they’ve done for him in the past two years. Some folk have no gratitude.

      For any Labour voters out there. This should be enough now surely? Westminster was never a home for a Scottish Labour vote. They could never see us as equals and this vote puts an end to any future thought of a Scottish PM.

      We can only do the next part with your help.

    107. Sheryl Hepworth says:

      Just a wee point here on EVEL.. There is no such thing as a ‘British’ constitution to my knowledge! The so called ‘British’ constitution is what the ruling party doon the way wants’ it to be at any given time!! There is nothing in writing at all that remotely resemble a ‘British’ constitution… unless someone here knows better than I???

    108. ben madigan says:

      Am coming very late to this discussion due to a long day at work As i was reading through the comments the first i wanted to reply to was
      @ criscault at 4.00 pm approximately!!
      “But,you really must have a constitution and a federal structure, with different people in the federal/UK level parliament from those in the state/regional parliaments.”
      I do not thnk a federal structure is feasible for the UK – tho’ who knows what may happen.
      I’ve seen no reason to change my mind since I posted the reasons here
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/squaring-the-circle-what-no-means/

    109. JM says:

      There is a reason that the Daily Record et al are remaining tight-lipped on this: they have just been neutered by the tories in WM.

      Consider their options.

      On one hand they could attempt to spin it as a positive for the union (the default position)but they can’t find one. Even if they can invent a positive, it would be quickly shredded on social media and their defending statements would be laughably weak.

      On the other hand, if the Scottish MSM and UK Labour speak out against this, separately or in unison, then the response from the rabid right-wing press will be a carbon copy of their GE2015 propaganda.

      They were relentless in their claims that Milliband as PM would be under the direct control of Sturgeon and that Scotland would in effect rule over England. OK, I don’t actually believe the claim that this cost Labour the election, but once they have had the opportunity to attack Corbyn with the same charge, it will be repeated time and time again. A sustained attack like this can reinforce the idea in the minds of the electorate over months and years, rather than in the few remaining days of a GE campaign.

      Democracy is dead in the union, the power lies with the corporations and their media.

      If only there was an alternative.

    110. Dan Huil says:

      @Macart 8:14 pm. Excellent post.

    111. K1 says:

      Macart, ‘He’s just broken Labours back’. Aye that’ll be why the Clunking Fiist was beside himself when EVEL first showed up after the 19th last year.

      The hiheidegos knew what was coming. Labour don’t care about Scotland or its people, they care about their thwarted ambitions…they’re fucked now.

    112. Free Scotland says:

      Unionists’ votes “put the UK under threat?” I’m cool with that.

      Don’t you just love it when your opponents do your work for you?

    113. http://tinyurl.com/nh4zr5b
      This is a link to the Briefing Paper from the House of Commons Library on EVEL,might help explain things.

      I hope.

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      As far as I’m concerned this is nothing more than an open acknowledgement of what the situation has always been. I have always been appalled at how Scots could not see what was so very obviously the historic truth of the matter.

      From the instant the Germanic tribes were invited to come to South Britain the elite establishment has attempted to rule all of the British Isles ad not just the Great Britain Island. Furthermore the entire taught history has always ignored the truth.

      The Roman’s attempted to absorb Caledonia as part of Roman Britain but the Gask Ridge defences and the Antoinette Wall prove they and failed to do so. Æthelstan, (or Athelstan), son of King Edward the Elder and his wife, Ecgwynn, was the King of the Anglo-Saxons but from 924AD until 927AD he ruled as the king of the newly formed Kingdom of England.

      The Battle of Athelstaneford, (which legend claims was the origins of the Saltire as our national flag), was a battle between an army of Picts and an invading army of Angles from Northumbria in 832AD. The Pictish King, Óengus II, defeated the English forces. The leader of the retreating Angles, “Athelstan”, was slain at a nearby river crossing, (hence the name Athelstaneford), of the village near Haddington.

      So from the very beginning, first the Romans and, then the first monarch of the Kingdom of England were attempting to make Caledonia/Scotland as part of their English realm. They never have managed to defeat us in Battle and, to date have not managed to do so with lies, propaganda, politics or deceit. Yet all this time they have still assumed they owned us.

      It was due to these assumptions that saw Scotland get into dire trouble when Queen Margaret, Maid of Norway, died. The Scots were left without a monarch and the Scots Nobles were daft enough to ask the English King to assist them in sorting out who the next Scottish monarch should be. He, of course, attempted to turn this to his advantage by choosing a weak man he could control.

      John Balliol was chosen by Edward and took the throne from 1292 until 1296. This led to a dispute between the Red Comyn and Robert Bruce for the Scottish crown and ended in the death, at the hands of Bruce, on the alter steps of Dumfries High Kirk. Edward attempted to turn this to his advantage by claiming the Bruce murdered the Comyn. However, as the two contenders for the throne were alone in the Kirk, it could well have been self defence on the Bruce’s part.

      Edward’s deceit led to him urging the Pope, (the head of all Christendom), to excommunicate the Bruce. Which, under the existing laws of all Christendom, “The Divine Right of Kings”, meant all Scotland’s peoples were excommunicated because a monarch owned all his/her subjects. Bruce, under Divine Right, could not become King and this led to the most profound changes in the laws of both British Kingdoms, for by then the Kingdom of England had annexed both Wales & Ireland.

      The English Monarchy had fallen out with the Pope due in part to their excesses but also their taking over as the leaders of the Christian Church in England, (The Reformation and all that). Then the English Civil Wars. In 1688 they had their, “Glorious Revolution”, that deposed the English monarch who had also wore the still independent Scottish Crown. As usual the English assumed they owed the still independent Kingdom of Scotland.

      Thus began the Jacobite Uprisings that the English still call the Jacobite Rebellion – but you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own. These uprisings continued long after the forced Treaty of Union of 1706/7 until 1745.

      Meanwhile the Scots had sent, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, to the Pope, in 1320, that not only had made Scotland an independent Kingdom but declared that Scots Monarchs were not sovereign but that the people were. This is still the main basis of Scots law today.

      However, under English law, (which applies to Wales & N. Ireland), the monarchy is still head of State but the power is deferred to the English Parliament. This was because of the Glorious Revolution, and the importation of William & Mary of Orange as the English monarchy, was the catalyst that had led to the Jacobite uprisings, the need of the English for the Treaty of Union, and the subsequent formation of the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster.

      You know, that one described in Government commissioned papers as, “The Act of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, The United Kingdom”.

      There’s your truth – they have always considered that the Kingdom of Scotland ceased to exist in 1706/7. Now I’ve been telling anyone who would listen that it was important not to confuse the Kingdom of Scotland with the country of Scotland nor the United Kingdom Parliament with the Parliament of Britain. Now you know why I persisted in doing so. Westminster has always considered itself to have sovereignty over Scotland and now, for the first time it is out in the open – So folks … what are we going to do about it?

    115. Tam Jardine says:

      Found this gem on the DT site. Get this- Evel is all down to us vile Cybernats!

      “While I have no doubt that Ms Sturgeon is sincere in deploring Cybernat excesses, they do not hurt her cause as much as she suggests. While nationalist intemperance might alienate some fellow-Scots, it is also gradually seeding reciprocal resentment among a proportion of English people. The clunky introduction of Evel is, to some degree, the legislative expression of that resentment.”

      For the full bhuna go here: https://archive.is/5SNeE

      Quite a strange piece- it cuts ‘From Dusk Till Dawn’ stylee half way through apropos absolutely nothing from an article on EVEL to the online abuse perpetuated only by the pro-indy side.

      I also enjoy the ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ poll question; “Will the cybernats listen to Nicola Sturgeon and stop their abuse?” I’m not sure what is more bizarre- the 94% who answered No or the 6% of people bizarrely answered yes

    116. starlaw says:

      The Crown is the constitution, and rules are made up to suit whatever needs ruled upon, at the time the rule is required. The ruling can be re written the following day if something else pops up.

    117. Macart says:

      @K1

      Yep, its no rocket science K1.

      If you can’t aspire to any of the top political jobs on a UK basis because of your point of origin, the reason for a political union is what precisely?

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      There was once a time, but old Time was then young,
      That brave Caledonia, the chief of her line,
      From some of your northern deities sprung,
      (Who knows not that brave Caledonia’s divine ?)
      From Tweed to the Orcades was her domain,
      To hunt, or to pasture, or do what she would :
      Her heav’nly relations there fixèd her reign,
      And pledg’d her their godheads to warrant it good.

      A lambkin in peace, but a lion in war,
      The pride of her kindred, the heroine grew :
      Her grandsire, old Odin, triumphantly swore,-
      ‘Whoe’er shall provoke thee, th’ encounter shall rue !’
      With tillage or pasture at times she would sport,;
      To feed her fair flocks by her green rustling corn
      But chiefly the woods were her fav’rite resort,
      Her darling amusement, the hounds and the horn.

      Long quiet she reigned; till thitherward steers
      A flight of bold eagles from Adria’s strand :
      Repeated, successive, for many long years,
      They darken’d the air, and they plunder’d the land :
      Their pounces were murder, and terror their cry,
      They’d conquer’d and ruin’d a world beside;
      She took to her hills, and her arrows let fly,
      The daring invaders, they fled or they died.

      The Cameleon-Savage disturb’d her repose,
      With tumult, disquiet, rebellion, and strife;
      Provok’d beyond bearing, at last she arose,
      And robb’d him at once of his hopes and his life :
      The Anglian lion, the terror of France,
      Oft prowling, ensanguin’d the Tweed’s silver flood;
      But, taught by the bright Caledonian lance,
      He learnèd to fear in his own native wood.

      The fell Harpy-raven took wing from the north,
      The scourge of the seas, and the dread of the shore;
      The wild Scandinavian boar issued forth
      To wanton in carnage and wallow in gore :
      O’er countries and kingdoms their fury prevail’d,
      No arts could appease them, no arms could repel;
      But brave Caledonia in vain they assail’d,
      As Largs well can witness, and Loncartie tell.

      Thus bold, independent, unconquer’d, and free,
      Her bright course of glory for ever shall run :
      For brave Caledonia immortal must be;
      I’ll prove it from Euclid as clear as the sun :
      Rectangle-triangle, the figure we’ll chuse :
      The upright is Chance, and old Time is the base;
      But brave Caledonia’s the hypothenuse;
      Then, ergo, she’ll match them, and match them always.

      Robert Burns

    119. Paula Rose says:

      (hello Robert Peffers – was worried as to where you were xx)

    120. Andrew McLean says:

      It has been mentioned by posters that the Scottish Parliament broke the treaty of union, also the legal advice recently given to parliament was that the Scottish nation was abolished,?
      First remember the scots parliament can be abolished by Westminster,
      Second you can get lawyers to write anything you want, the advice paid for by Westminster is as much use as the idiot lawyer who sent me a bill for parking in Morrison’s, we argued for twenty minutes, finally I said go fuck yourself ya dick! Not my finest hour, but funny I never heard from him again!
      But EVEL is a material breach of the Act of Union. No doubt about that!

    121. Kevin Evans says:

      And let’s not forget that includes members of the shadow cabinet

    122. One_Scot says:

      So in reality Westminster has become England’s parliament that rules over Scotland and Holyrood.

      Clearly we are not in an equal union or ‘Better Together’, but are under the control of a power hungry right wing country.

      I am not sure this is what ‘No’ voters voted for.

    123. msean says:

      We all knew something like this would happen after Scotland voted no. Always felt that, to the Tories,no didn’t mean just no,it meant dae as ye like.

      Just wondering though. If a future Labour government wanted to overturn this,does it mean they have win in England to have the numbers to do so,and might even have to overcome some of its own English MPs who might,after getting into power,wouldn’t want to reverse it? The last Labour government wasn’t that hot on reversing Tory laws,on unions etc.

      It would mean that there would be a better chance of one of them having a minsterial limo rather than an MP from a non English seat.A rule like this would have stopped Gordon Brown from being PM.

    124. North chiel says:

      It is obvious now that the Tory cabal now plan to attack Scotland
      on a number of fronts as regards the “impertinence ” of attempting
      to ” breakaway from London colonial rule”
      (1) An ongoing propaganda campaign directed from Downing st.
      discredit the Scottish government spearheaded by the BBC
      and the “London controlled” Tory press.
      (2) A concerted attack on private sector Scottish business in
      a deliberate attempt to seriously weaken the Scottish economy
      by (a) Using the “Northern Powerhouse strategy” to compete
      with Scotland for inward investment
      (b) undermining the Scottish economy by the withdrawal of
      Renewables subsidies
      (c) Undermining the Scottish energy sector
      (d) Using their contacts with big business to ensure that capital investment
      in Scotland is cut
      (3) luring the Scottish government into a funding trap with
      the partial devolution of income tax.( as a result of (1) and (2)
      a shrinking income tax take and higher unemployment
      will cripple the Scottish gov) . Even if John Swinney “appears”
      to “win” a no detriment to revenue argument with the treasury
      in his negotiations over devolution of tax/ Barnett consequentials
      etc. if the London treasury has to “top up” revenue due
      to a decline in devolved tax income, this will ” play into
      Cameron/osbourne’s hands” and we will immediately
      labelled ” subsidy junkies”.
      In addition to the attack on the private sector in Scotland,
      simultaneously the Public Sector will be squeezed as the
      Tories privatise the health service and other reserved
      expenditure in England is cut again having a detrimental consequence
      in Scotland.
      I am not an economist , but neither is George Osbourne (his advisors will do his”dirty work”)
      , however the Tory strategy is an all out war on the SNP government
      and to squash “self determination” for the people of Scotland.(l earnestly hope that John Swinney
      has the best economic advisers available in his “negotiations” with the treasury)

    125. Bill Hume says:

      I’m with the Lallans Peat Worrier on this one. A pointless piece of drivel designed to appeal to Middle England.

      I find it funny watching the Tory Party dancing to the fiddle of ‘Middle England’ and the Labour party marching along, somewhat puzzled, behind them.

      That the SNP won’t dance to their tune must be a worry to Westminster.

    126. Toby Goodwin says:

      Is there any chance that the Queen, in her role as upholder of the constitution, might veto this?

    127. Patrician says:

      So what happens to London MPs voting on anything outside London, after all there is a London assembly to look after London. Surely this means they should be excluded. 🙄

    128. Ruby says:

      heedtracker says:
      23 October, 2015 at 7:46 pm

      Like most Scots, I’m what Americans call an Anglophile Ruby. English people are as politically diverse and as politically interested as Scots. They can spot tory bullshit just as quickly too.

      Ruby replies

      No idea what you being an Anglophile has to do with anything! I was asking about the English electorate and whether they too were being fucked over.

      Really what I’m trying to find out is if they have spotted Tory bullshit. There are a lot of people who live in England posting on the internet but they all seem to be suggesting everything in England is perfect but Scotland is shite! Perhaps I need to find alternative websites. I should go and see what the English Democrats are saying.

      I’m also keen to find out what Ian Murray, Kezia and NO voters are saying. Perhaps I’ll check The Scotsman. 🙂

    129. caz-m says:

      Kezia is guest of honour on Question Time next week from Edinburgh, it will be fascinating to hear what her response is to EVEL.

      Kezia, are you with us or agin us?

      C’mon Kezia, you know it makes sense, tell English Labour where to go.

      For once in your life, think for yourself, not your London masters.

      Join the Yes movement and become a forward thinking, optimistic Scot.

    130. Ruby says:

      caz-m Do you think there will be a question about EVEL on QT?

    131. Patrician says:

      Surely this just codifies the reality of the current situation, Non-English MPs are always out-voted anyway.

      Material change anyone? 😈

    132. caz-m says:

      Ruby

      You don’t think Question Time would avoid the “EVEL” question, do you?

    133. ian says:

      I agree with you Bill Hume to a point but as has been pointed out this is “a work in progress”.Its not the content in its present form thats a huge problem but what it will become given time.It has huge significance for the future of the union.

    134. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I assume this will be balanced out by Scottish MPs being given the power of a veto over any Scotland issue.

      Lets start with Faslane/Coulport.

    135. aj watson says:

      Ia any one else watching the the bank of England bill on bbc parliament october 22 goerge osbourne,never answered a single question ,John mann obviously hates the guy , but goerge is just feckin evil horrible little greedy basterd ,

    136. K1 says:

      Precisely Macart!

      Labour fell for the Tory trap…and consigned themselves to oblivion.

      Both there and we consigned them to oblivion in Scotland here.

      What now as Robert Peffers asks? I don’t know…it’s like watching some strange constitutional interplay unfolding and all we can do is watch from the sidelines. What was covertly so has now been made overt.

      What’s our response to that?

      We need more people to wake up. To realise it’s over. It’s all very well of us knowing this, but what’s the use of this when we don’t have any right of reply in real ‘material’ terms?

      Bloody frustrating.

    137. Ruby says:

      caz-m says:
      23 October, 2015 at 9:37 pm

      Ruby

      You don’t think Question Time would avoid the “EVEL” question, do you?

      I think they might although it is possible that I’m getting a bit cynical!

      We’ll have to wait and see!

      On saying that I don’t know if I could be bothered watching you’ll have to let me know.

    138. Tam Jardine says:

      Watching the documentary on the Stuarts in Exile- interesting to see the map of the British Isles skewed even then!

      Also interested to see how a documentary on the Stuarts manages to hardly mention Scotland at all. It seems to drift into a biography of the Duke of Marlborough.

    139. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can someone please let us non-telly watchers how HIGNFY went?

      Here’s hoping Ruthie took full advantage of the photo-op, straddled Hislop, and lodged her swagger-stick firmly in his helmet.

      Huzzah!

    140. Nana Smith says:

      O/T Nicola’s speech at the Plaid conference.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3UI8F8slEE&feature=youtu.be

    141. Effijy says:

      English Evil Exemplified. Eee by Cameron.

      How could the Westminster Tories do this to their 1 and only
      Slave master in Scotland, and their Servile Single Red Tory from
      Edinburgh?

    142. Effijy says:

      O/T
      Sent by SNP MSP=

      Welcome to my latest Trans Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) update. Since the Lange report was passed in July (despite SNP opposition) the tale of TTIP has continued to twist and turn.
      Firstly, I am delighted to share with you a development that I announced at the recent SNP Conference. Nicola Sturgeon has written to the UK Government urging them “to ensure that the NHS is fully and explicitly exempt from TTIP and, if that is not the case, to use its veto at the European Council to prevent TTIP progressing.”
      The full text of the letter can be found here and my speech announcing it can be viewed here.
      Once again the SNP and the Scottish Government are serving as the real opposition to the UK Government. I hope that David Cameron will agree to make such a pledge and actually represent the people of Scotland, though I fear I will be disappointed! For our part, I repeat our assurance that if there is any risk to the provision of public services in Scotland, TTIP will not receive SNP support in any parliament, or any council chamber.
      Though there have been no major parliamentary votes or debates in Europe on TTIP there have been a number of smaller events to keep track of. As some of you may have noticed the highly controversial Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) has been ‘replaced’. However, instead of responding to widespread concerns about ISDS, EU Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström has indulged in a political marketing exercise and simply replaced it with an almost identical Investment Court System (ICS).
      Let me be clear, this is not good enough.
      From the very beginning I have always stated that any proposal to create a separate legal mechanism to protect investors is completely unacceptable. I simply do not see why it is necessary for corporations to have a different set of rules to the general law, particularly since we are talking about two of the most advanced legal systems in the world.
      Moving further afield, the US has just concluded the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) deal with 12 other countries ringing the Pacific Ocean. TPP amounts to the most significant free trade accord in memory and these countries account for 40 per cent of today’s global economic output. TPP and TTIP have often been seen as siblings and it is clear that they share many features, not least controversy!
      Concluding the negotiations was only the beginning and now the treaty must be ratified, not least by the United States. In recent times it has become clear that the Senate and House of Representatives are increasingly concerned and may not do so. More remarkably Hilary Clinton, who has previously supported the treaty, has publically stated that the end result is not what she had hoped for. Crucially, she has said that if elected as President she would not support TPP.
      This opposition clearly serves as an advance warning to anyone expecting TTIP to be simply waved through on the other side of the Atlantic.
      TTIP’s other relative, the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) with Canada, has also been moving along quietly behind closed doors. A number of you have emailed me about this treaty so I wish to lay out briefly where we stand.
      The full text for CETA as negotiated is available to anyone who wishes to read it. However, before you all eagerly dive into its scintillating 1,600 pages (available here) I would urge some caution.
      The text is currently in a strange version of limbo called ‘legal scrubbing.’ Beyond conjuring fantastical images of lawyers with mops this is a process that will result in a number of (I suspect substantive) changes to the text we have. At the very least I expect the current ISDS settlement within CETA will be changed. Until we know what these changes are I will continue to withhold my final judgment. The final text should be released some time next year, I will of course up date you when it is.
      Let me reassure you that the red lines that myself and the SNP have for TTIP are every bit as applicable to CETA and I will not support a treaty that contains ISDS or any similar system.
      I still think it could be possible to reform TTIP in a positive direction and I will use every effort to do so. It would be irresponsible to disengage from the process and then complain afterwards that the end result isn’t good enough. I am deeply concerned by TTIP and CETA but so long as I have a mandate to get the best deal for Scotland I will not take the easy approach of walking away.
      I will continue to monitor this situation, and keep you informed via these updates. My red lines are clear and I will not compromise upon them. The NHS and other public services must be clearly carved out, European standards must not be compromised and corporations must not be given any special rights to sue governments that pursue policies they disagree with.

    143. Bill Steele says:

      Could not the Scottish Parliament not just declare that Westminster has annulled the Treaty of Union?

    144. K1 says:

      It was shite Ian. Just fluff. The chinese visit was the only sort a serious ‘bending over’ for the money, a so called ‘wealthy UK’ and why does it need to borrow. In fact that was the most lengthy part of the whole programme.

      Tax credits, with clips of Hameron before the election stating tax credits wouldn’t be cut. Clip of Ruthie saying the word ‘crack’ when attempting to say ‘fast track’. She wasn’t ‘taken to task’ at all. Very light, she giggled like a wee lassie through most of the programme.

      Rugby was mentioned and her text that night Scotland lost, a weird forced connection between a ghost wi boobs and Alex Salmond snpenis…not pleasant…there was no satire. Wishy washy pishy.

    145. heedtracker says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qObzgUfCl28

      Ruby, Ruby, Ruby 45% Scotland is progressive liberal and want to shake off toryboy world, but its the same in England.

    146. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Cheers K1.

      So, no-one, anywhere, wants to talk about EVEL?

      ‘Pay no attention to that man with his dick in a deid pig’s gob…’

      Serious question – what do Osborne, IDS etc get dressed-up as for Halloween?

    147. Sunniva says:

      Stuarts in Exile – BBC Scotland couldn’t even get any proper Scottish historians to do this programme. Clare Jackson is English, at Oxford, teaching British history.

    148. Grouse Beater says:

      English Votes for English Laws.

      Muslim votes for Muslim laws- erm, no. Sorry.
      Gypsy votes for Gypsy laws- erm, no. Not them either.
      EU votes for English laws- over our dead bodies!

      But we do allow English votes for English foxes.

      If Etonians cannot be master of all we survey, by god, sir, we shall be lords of all we own.

    149. Nana Smith says:

      EVEL isn’t about Scotland. It’s about locking Labour out of power in the UK
      It will go down in history as the most narrow-minded exercise in partisan constitutionalism in British history

      https://archive.is/uzPpZ

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      The SNP are the UK’s third largest party, and the second largest opposition party. As such they get extra money “short money” for researchers, and extra access to committees. Their job is to assist in holding the UK Government to account on its legislation.

      EVEL removes the third largest party and the second largest opposition party from the extra committee stage on EVEL deemed legislation, and from voting on any “veto” in the third stage.

      Which means that EVEL legislation breaks the UK’s own established procedures, never mind the abuse of standing orders to achieve that. A more normal debate might have brought this into the light, though I got it from an article in July from Scottish Constitutional Futures Forum by Barry Winetrobe.

      Yet another way Evel screws, never mind Scotland, but England.

    151. Macart says:

      @K1

      Labour bet the house on winning middle England and the general election. They tied their wagon to the blue tories during the referendum and from then on it was a race to May 2015.

      Their problem? The Conservatives could never be trusted as allies and Milliband was frankly unelectable.

      You couldn’t put a fag paper between them. Parliamentary Labour sacrificed any credence and loyalty to their Scottish members and electorate in pursuit of a GE and the Conservatives used Labour to front one of the most negative, poisonous campaigns in the UKs electoral history.

      Neither gave a thought to what effect this would have on our democracy, on the Scottish electorate period. They had their sights set on the ‘big picture’ and sod the collateral damage. They so deserve each other.

      Its time for Labour in Scotland to become Scottish Labour. They’ve been sacrificed by UK Labour and stabbed in the back by the conservatives, their ‘career paths’ shortened by some considerable degree. There are folk who need them now to be the party they were created to be. A Scottish Labour party serving the people of Scotland in a fully empowered Scottish parliament.

    152. bookie from hell says:

      Ruth laughs an shrugs her shoulders like Ted Heath

      fair dues he would love the SNPness joke

    153. Big Jock says:

      Aye Macart. Sadly the current Scottish Labour party. Will wait until they are sharing a phone box for their HQ. Before they realise they have been conned. Most of them are as dim as your average no voter.

    154. Effijy says:

      The real problem is now one of law. The Act of the Union is now in breach. As such. Scotland is no longer part of the Union.

      You seem to forget that the law only applies when it suits Westminster!

      How about Carmichael being proved to be a Liar, a Liar who stood by and watched £1,000,000 of scarce public funds being wasted, repeated his lie, then admitted he was a liar, as a punishment he keeps his seat on the UK Gravy Train with a Westminster Standards
      committee investigation completing their enquiry just after he dies of old age.

      How about the pedophile Lords, or the Perjury convicted Lords, the taking Drugs on Camera with paid prostitute Lords, missing Murderer Lords all free and strolling around taking your money, and side stepping the laws intended for the plebs.

    155. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The ghoulies come out at Halloween. Or, in David Cameron’s case, when…ach, canny be bothered…

    156. caz-m says:

      Could the Scots not take the Tories and their new EVEL Law to the European Court of Human Rights?

      They must surely be breaking some kind of law here.

      Or will we just keep feeding them the rope.

    157. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve seen it argued that if Labour had a slim majority in 2020 with the help of Scottish MPs, they could simply repeal this EVEL. But that puts the cart before the horse, to become the slim majority party it would be known they’d repeal EVEL, and if England liked EVEL, they would be less inclined to vote Labour to give them that slim majority in the first place. So Labour would probably have to promise NOT to repeal EVEL.

    158. K1 says:

      Aye Macart but is that ever likely to happen as Big Jock points out?

      That’s not my dream, and I don’t believe there is enough of any kind of appetite within the Labour branch office in Scotland for the formation of an independent genuine Scottish Labour Party.

      Personally I think it is too late. If there were ever to be such a thing it would have to be led and formed at the grass roots level for it to have any meaningful expectation of being taken seriously in Scotland.

      Who wants to form a new Labour party in Scotland? Everyone who feels that Labour left them are now backing the SNP? With current polling intentions putting Labour at 20/21% for next years H elections…there is clearly a mass movement away from the Labour party in Scotland.

      They’ll never ‘weigh’ the votes again. The party is truly over.

      We need a chunk of those Labour voters to come over to the SNP…we don’t need Labour.

    159. Macart says:

      @Big Jock

      I suspect you may be right Jock, but I’m a big believer in its never too late.

      We need their help to right this wrong and whatever the parliamentarians may imagine, the rank and file membership need to see an open hand.

      This is about all of us, all political persuasions, all creeds, all points of origin, all Scots. We’ve just effectively been told we’re barred from holding high political office in UK governance. The point of the political union (on paper) has just been decreed null and void by a conservative government in a cynical pursuit of extended conservative rule.

      Let’s give any new converts a warm welcome. 🙂

    160. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      “…. if Labour had a slim majority in 2020 with the help of Scottish MPs …. ”

      Lets hope all this day in day out shite is long finished by 2020 and there are no MPs from Scotland at WM!

      I couldn’t take another five years. 🙂

    161. Cadogan Enright says:

      So, this means Scottish MP’s have a veto on all things Scottish then?

      Like siting Trident in the belt wher 80% of the Scottish population live?

      Or Westmonster removing Scottish islands from Holwrood rule?

      Or ceding more North Sea territory to England?

      Or . . . . .?

    162. defo says:

      Evels got the Barnett consequential blues.
      Dishface needs his nose rubbing in this mess, and it shouldn’t be too long before Englands parliament gives a chance.

      Cheer up. You could be Portuguese.
      They don’t even have the comfort of the illusion of a democracy now.

    163. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Has no-one done this one yet?

      Daredevil Dave!

      ‘I finally realised what drove me to keep going. I finally woke up. I didn’t have any death-wish. It was just the excitement of the thing…’

      Evel Knievel, ‘London Bus Jump’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lPCK8hptg8

    164. Taranaich says:

      @muttley79: Yes, but SNP MPs are still going to be able to vote against most welfare measures by the Tories at Westminster, and it is not going to stop people from dying, the same with foreign policy.

      It’s adding to the indignity and destruction of democracy. As bad as Westminster was, it could always be worse – and this is just another step in that direction.

      Sorry but this sounds like the solidarity argument that unionists use against independence. Yessers are going to have to stop thinking that Scotland is somehow responsible for the rest of the UK’s problems, and that we are some kind of saviours imo.

      I disagree, not least because independence would make us *more* able to help the people of the UK than being stuck in the Union ever could. With independence we could choose what we do with our vast wealth and resources, which includes things like cross-border development of the North, foreign aid, welcoming immigrants rather than imprisoning them in camps, international clout, and whatnot. International socialists should practically be falling over themselves promoting Scottish independence – better to have one social democratic government in these islands than none.

      The problem with the solidarity argument isn’t because the sentiment of solidarity is wrong – it’s because it’s simply not true. Solidarity does not stop at borders. True internationalists should recognise that. *Glares at Red Paper Collective*

      There is around 55 million people in the rest of the UK, why on earth should people in Scotland feel it is their responsibility to save the rest of the UK from themselves? They vote for who they want to.

      I understand where you’re coming from, but for me, it isn’t about feeling it’s my “responsibility,” it’s about helping people in need when we can do so. It isn’t your responsibility to give to charity, but it helps. That sort of thing. Plus, 36.9% voted Tory – the second lowest vote share for any majority government in history. Saying that the people of England & Wales voted for the Tories is letting those gerrymandering creatures off the hook.

      @Glamaig: ‘Research by the House of Commons Library showed that of the roughly 3800 divisions between June 26, 2001 and March 26, 2015, only 25 votes would have gone a different way had Scottish MPs been barred’.

      Any links for that? Would love to know exactly what those 25 votes would’ve been – and crucially, how turnout impacted those votes. The famous Syria vote beloved of George Galloway was as much due to Tory abstention/absentees as Scottish participation, for instance.

    165. Effijy says:

      In 2025 after 10 years of Cameron and 5 of Boris as UK PM,
      the English electorate would vote for kim il jung rather than
      more Tory cuts and the biggest equality gap in 100 years.

      If they are dumb enough to put Labour in, they would maintain the Tory status quo and keep EVEL in hope of keeping the Scots in their place and their bums on a prime gravy train seat.

      Labour have made it clear that their party comes before anything else, especially anything to do with Jockland.

    166. caz-m says:

      K1

      This has got to be Scottish Labour’s final wake up call.

      If the penny doesn’t drop with this one, then they really are as dump as they look.

    167. @yesindyref2

      Would repealing EVEL not be under EVEL,so no non English MP could vote to repeal it.

    168. ahundredthidiot says:

      Why is this not receiving proper press?

      Because it’s 1984 old boy

    169. Ian Brotherhood says:

      While we wait for the next Brown intervention (to explain what EVEL involves and what his beloved Labour Party is going to do about it) could someone please make a witty comment based on this song?

      ‘Tell me no secrets, tell me some lies, give me no reasons give me alibis…’ etc etc. It’s all there.

      Crystal Gayle, ‘Don’t It Make My Brown Eyes Blue’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCgP-6mzz00

    170. crazycat says:

      @ Scot Finlayson

      It’s a change to Standing Orders, so not an Act that can be repealed, so it may not include itself. I’m not sure about that, though, but there was a lot of fuss when they announced that they were going to force it through via Standing Orders, with opponents claiming that would reduce the scope for debate and scrutiny.

      So I doubt you could have a Grand Committee scrutinizing a change to Standing Orders, and I think they would have to reverse it the same way, because it is now part of Standing Orders.

    171. Capella says:

      By the pricking of my thumbs, something EVEL this way comes.

      @ Robert Peffers thanks for the summary. Thought you’d gone quiet of late.

    172. geeo says:

      PMQ’s next week….

      “Ian from Edinburgh called me to say he does not feel better together anymore, what will i tell him” ?

    173. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Ian B, Ruthie doesnt have a swagger stick. If she ever managed to get her hands on one, it isnt hers. She failed at Sandhurst. She was only ever a lowly signaller. Guess she liked playing with radios and got into the BBC. As for her performance tonight, it was a bit cringy, too much pretendy laughing, which became a bit tedious. Surprised Michael Sheen didnt give her more of a doing, given his rendition of Bevan’s speech.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLMYgb7xs38

    174. Torys pushed EVEL through before they lost their majority in Commons,

      They have guaranteed themselves a majority for the rest of this parliament,

      It was never really about fairness for England.
      http://tinyurl.com/nh4zr5b

      `Of approximately 3,800 divisions to occur between 26 June 2001 and 26 March 2015, 25 (0.7%) would have concluded differently had the votes of Scottish MPs not been counted`.

    175. Sandy Henderson says:

      Westminster now to be renamed UK Government for England & It’s Territories?

    176. manandboy says:

      “If a bill applied exclusively to England, the committee considering it at committee stage would only include Members representing seats in England.”

      The immediate future of Westminster parliamentary democracy rests on the day to day interpretation of ‘exclusively’.
      If the UK is a political union or ‘family’, then the concept of exclusivity is alien.

      If exclusivity is deemed to be essential, then there can be no Union. The two terms are mutually exclusive. You either have union or you don’t. The Tories want both which is metaphysically impossible. The SS United Kingdom has just become the SS Titanic. There will be survivors but the ship will go down.

    177. Valerie says:

      Look on the bright side. EVEL means only Scottish MPs will vote on Trident, eh?

    178. PhilJoMar says:

      Sorry if his has been written already but EVEL could both work and also maintain the union if a strict proportional representation was introduced. This would allow for more fluid voting as the larger parties never come close to receiving 50% of the vote. It would solve almost everything that the Tory constitutional wrecking ball is doing and so of course will never happen.
      Lastly I don’t really care about EVEL as my crystal ball tells me this almost guarantees independence.

    179. Ghillie says:

      EVEL stalks the land.

    180. iheartscotland says:

      But the MSM and the BBC wont report this properly.
      Talk to people….
      Its the only way..

    181. john king says:

      Patrician

      “Material change anyone? :twisted:”

      Ok fess up
      how are you doing those emoticons I can do this 😉 this ;0 this 🙂 or 🙁 but I cant do the animated ones or the horns or… dammit tell me how your doing that! 🙁

    182. yesindyref2 says:

      Like this you mean?

      😆

      (testing)

    183. yesindyref2 says:

      @john king

      ➡ ➡ ➡ ➡ https://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies

      :mrgreen:

    184. john king says:

      Yesindyref2 says
      “I’ve seen it argued that if Labour had a slim majority in 2020 with the help of Scottish MPs, they could simply repeal this EVEL. But that puts the cart before the horse, to become the slim majority party it would be known they’d repeal EVEL, and if England liked EVEL, they would be less inclined to vote Labour to give them that slim majority in the first place. So Labour would probably have to promise NOT to repeal EVEL.”

      Yes
      the can has been opened and the worms are all over the floor and they’re not going to go back in!

      The SNP started the ball rolling in Scotland and look at how (almost to the point of sucess) the public picked up the ball an ran with it,

      The English have been told to feel a sense of greivance and guess what? they are aggreived that somehow 56 Scots MP’s regularly ride roughshod over the will of 500 odd English Welsh and Irish MP’s,

      The Tories have quite cynically used the Scottish referendum to manipulate the public in England to the point where they could find themselves more or less permanently stuck with them,
      Labour wont be ABLE to repeal EVEL no matter what they say,

      Wake up England the tories are taking you for mugs.

    185. chalks says:

      Once the english find out about evel then they will change the process to make sure abody but english mps are excluded, its only a matter of time

    186. Dodgardiner says:

      On the bright side it surely can’t be denied that Scotland does exist and indeed was not abolished by the act of Union as some muppets would try to have us believe….

    187. grant says:

      Is it not time for a separate English parliament, with MEP’s er I mean MENGP’s?

    188. Macart says:

      @John King 7.14am

      Ayup, pretty much John.

    189. Effijy says:

      Could someone give a prime example of just how much of a slap in the face this EVEL is to Scotland?

      I’m thinking that Greater London might like to have £15 Billion for some new tracks for high speed trains, a few £Billion for upgrading London Sewers, a £ Billion for a new airport for them
      and as it is all English, only English MPs get to vote on taking the money out of government’s central funds, which means Scots pay around 10% of their costs and we get a budget cut in return.

      Or how about they make a paper saving by privatising NHS services, to companies the Tories have invested in, then cut the Scottish budget to match what they saved.
      Keep doing it until NHS Scotland collapses and then we have a Tory owned health service-if you can afford it.

      As reader will know many of the privatised English NHS services have been pathetic and many have gone bust. Then we, the Tax payer, can pick up the bill for the mess that they left behind.

      Does anyone else wonder why your car insurer can adjust your car insurance premium to match the circumstances affecting the area that you live in, but the government can’t adjust a Glaswegian’s
      pension payments after 50 years of contributions, even though they know we die 20 years before a resident of Westminster?

    190. Andrew McLean says:

      For the hopefully last time the treaty of union was the joining of the Scottish and English parliaments, it was restrictive in nature, for instance Law was not merged neither were religion or education, neither were heredity title, as the independence of the Scottish aristocracy and the Royal boroughs were protected by the act! You can’t devolve a country or not have it exist if you restrict the terms. Read the fing act! At no time did it say abolish it says merge! if you merge you can separate.
      The fact the uk parliament brought in the rules covering the referendum explain all you need to know about the union.

    191. Andrew McLean says:

      Another point is the Scottish Parliament was never actually abolished, therefore when the parliament sat again, the first statement made was say ” the Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25, 1707, is hereby reconvened.”
      That is officially the state of our parliament!

    192. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘Don’t It Make Those Brown Lies True?’

    193. McBoxheid says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      So Labour would probably have to promise NOT to repeal EVEL.

      Since when have Labour ever kept their promises?
      The Unionist Westminster Establishment do what their master’s tell them to do. Manifesto promises aren’t law. They are like battle plans. They rarely stand up to first contact with the enemy.

      We all know who Scotland’s enemies are. I just hope we can get out of this rip off, lying, cheating Tory-led Union sooner rather than later.

      With EVEL, Scottish Labour, the Branch Office is history. (It is anyway) If they want to claw back some potential future with the Scottish Parliament they have no choice. They have to declare themselves indepenent of UK Labour and for Scottish Independence. Otherwise they will continue to be the irrelevance that they are now.

      Dead party walking.

    194. willie says:

      EVEL brings into sharp focus how much the English resent Scotland and its passing into law will only serve to make independence iinevitable.

      These people may want our pil, our gas, and our lands as a colonial possession, but at the end of the day they hate Scotland.

    195. Effijy says:

      Last week I had posted that someone else’s Daily Mail seemed to
      have gone off the SNP Bad trail and moved their focus onto Corbyn and Labour.

      Last Saturdays SNP Bad tally was down to have only 3 misleading tales about the party, down from 12 the previous Saturday.

      Well, we are back! Would you believe that wee devil Sturgeon isn’t going to match the £9 million that Westminster are going to give local Tory supporting businesses in and around Scunthorpe in hope that “might” make more jobs available to the redundant steel workers.

      Brace yourselves, SNP are instead going to try and save the Scottish Steel jobs instead of just contributing to the Scunthorpe fund and making another £9 million to Scots workers?

      Isn’t this a shock? No!

      Next we they run with another SNP give money away to T-In The Park and didn’t ask any questions or reasons for saving the event?

      Some good news is that now the nasty SNP have lost the referendum
      more filthy rich English people are buying £1 million plus houses
      here in Scotland.

      I’m so relieved that the rich are getting richer.
      I had been worried that the length of the Food Bank queues might have reached the boundary walls of these Millionaire properties
      and put the London Toffs off having a wee holiday But’n Ben here.

      To be fair, they did reveal the EVEL Vote!
      It is down on the Right Hand Corner of page 19 in a space that could easily be covered by 2 small 2nd Class postage stamps.
      Some jumped up Tory Bitch has announced that the manky Jocks can no longer interfere in how the English wish to run their own empire.

      Congratulations! We have another week of being enemy number one!

    196. Jack Murphy says:

      EVEL DEBATE. Tommy Sheppard MP makes a powerful speech on Thursday in the Commons.
      To the EVEL Tory Benches:-“We know,that you know,that we know,that you never thought you were ever going to have to implement it”. 🙂
      7 minutes. Parliament TV.

      http://tinyurl.com/pn6rr7m

    197. shug says:

      Why is the msm not reporting this

    198. Richardinho says:

      As I understand the current implementation of EVEL, what it entails is that English and Welsh M.Ps will be given a veto over some proposed legislation (that determined by the speaker to concern only England and Wales) in the HoC but that, after they have had that chance, Scottish M.Ps will be allowed to vote on it.

      As I see it, it’s therefore unlikely that this new rule in it’s present form will make much difference at all in practical terms. The only way that it would affect Scotland would be if a Scottish M.P proposed legislation which was deemed by the speaker to only affect England and Wales. This doesn’t seem likely.

      What can (and very likely will) happen is though that a piece of legislation which obviously only affects England could still be voted down by Scottish M.Ps thus dealing a huge embarrassment to David Cameron since it would show how toothless this law is (Shurely the SNP would not be so mischievous!)

      The reaction to that too is obvious enough: a further change in the law further restricting the voting rights of Scottish M.Ps.

      And that is why this law is wrong: It is wrong in principle as it stands because there shouldn’t be two tiers of M.P but it is also wrong because it represents a wedge that will be used to gradually diminish the power of Scotland’s representatives at Westminster.

      Unless of course like me you’re a nationalist in which case you’re delighted to see unionists shooting themselves in the face!

    199. Jim Morris says:

      Sadly Scotland seems to be too wee and too stupid to become Independent and we are too rich for the U.Q. (United Queendom) to let us go.

    200. Patrician says:

      @yesindyref2, seriously can’t you keep a secret 🙁



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