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Two kinds of lies

Posted on October 22, 2015 by

The reaction of the Scottish media and political opposition to Audit Scotland’s annual report on the NHS today has been nothing if not predictable. But we thought you might like an instructive and enlightening look at the two very different types of approach they’ve taken to trying to mislead the Scottish people about it.

First up is the non-specific Scottish Labour apparatchik (as far as we’re aware he has no official role in the party since Jim Murphy quit – indeed we don’t know what he does for a living at all any more) Blair McDougall:


This is what we in the writing trade call a “flat-out lie”.

That’s because it’s simply blatantly factually untrue. The Audit Scotland report makes it absolutely clear that the overall (very slight, one-off) funding reduction this year is down to the completion of the new Southern General hospital in Glasgow, which has caused capital spending to fall because there’s no longer a giant hospital being built. (And also because it was delivered under budget, those evil Nat scoundrels.)


The capital budget is a completely separate pot of money from the one that relates to targets. Those are part of the day-to-day running of the NHS, which comes from the revenue budget, which as Audit Scotland notes has actually increased.

It is therefore indisputably, empirically, unarguably complete nonsense to claim that the overall funding reduction is the reason for the missed targets. The type of funding which impacts on targets has gone up, not down. Blair McDougall knows that perfectly well – he knows the difference between the capital and resource budgets, and he can read. But he’s told the lie anyway, because that’s what he does.

Exhibit B is the Daily Record.


The Record devotes six pages to “OMG NHS CATASTROPHE SNP BAD!!” in today’s issue, of which the above is just a small corner. But it’s interesting because it takes the opposite approach to McDougall’s crude sledgehammer falsehoods.

While the wording is slippery and misleading, it’s basically true. The second paragraph stretches the facts to breaking point – it implies that the reductions happened every year, rather than just this year, and by casually rounding up to a whole number (from 0.7% to 1%) it’s also inflating the real figure by a non-trivial 43% – but on a literal reading it’s more or less semantically defensible.

The real killer is the last paragraph. Arithmetically and grammatically it’s not strictly inaccurate to say “Scotland receives a more generous share of cash”, though the word “generous” is of course a matter of opinion and interpretation. (We’re also making the very big and very risky assumption that the Record has its facts right.)

But what that statement means in reality is that Scotland has had its budget slashed by 10%, only slightly less than England has, when the structure of the sentence would give a casual reader the impression that Scottish funding had actually been increased (because “more generous” sounds like there’s more of something, not less).

The facts are that despite throwing more money at the NHS, the English service is in crisis. A heart-rending article from a doctor in today’s Guardian paints a chilling and horrifying picture. We’ve already highlighted record waiting times in England. Growing numbers of NHS trusts south of the border are being put into special emergency measures in an attempt to deal with treatment and fiscal crises.

NHS Scotland has delivered better results with less money – the Holy Grail of public services. That’s no reason for complacency, as we noted this morning. There are serious problems in the Scottish NHS that need to be dealt with. Nor is it any surprise, of course, that political and media opponents are choosing to portray it as a disaster.

We just thought you’d like a peek behind the curtain at how they do it.

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  1. 22 10 15 16:39

    Two kinds of lies | Politics Scotland |

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201 to “Two kinds of lies”

  1. muttley79 says:

    Fats McDougall is a chancer.

  2. Taranaich says:

    There are serious problems in the Scottish NHS that need to be dealt with.

    And given how other parties are wont to point those problems out, you’d think they’d be inundating the Scottish government with suggestions of how to improve it. Hell, with an election coming up, you’d think they’d put forward their ideas for how they’d deal with SNHS problems if they were the Scottish government.

    What was that quote attributed to Theodore Roosevelt about complaining without offering solutions?

  3. Dandy Dons 1903 says:

    Lies FatBoy lies, thats all you have got.

  4. Murray McCallum says:

    Is the Daily Record implying that the Tories should run NHS Scotland as they have done in England?

    Is this what they have become?

  5. Capella says:

    The Westminster government is also spending record amounts of money in public transport. Unfortunately, that is mainly funneled to private companies, property developers and franchises.

    Any comparison between the SNHS and NHS has to spell out what the money is spent on. The USA spends astronomical amounts on health but the service to the average tax payer is very poor.

  6. Jonny says:

    Wings, you truly have a dellusional personality complex problem don’t you?

    If you are so sure of your facts, then why not challenge Andrew Neil to a debate on his TV show to discuss the SNP funding cuts that you say do not exist? I am sure he would be only too happy to invite you on and discuss this in front of a live audience. But you wouldn’t dare to do that would you, as you prefer to talk the talk instead of walking the walk. Something like a live debate with Andrew Neil would take a man, a real man that is and you haven’t got the guts to do it have you?

    Carry on shouting at the moon wings and to your brain washed followers, as that is all you are good for.

  7. bunter says:

    This is the kind of stuff Wings excels at. Cheers.

  8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What was that quote attributed to Theodore Roosevelt about complaining without offering solutions?”

    I think it was “Anyone who complains without offering solutions is a cunt”.

  9. Jimbo says:

    Labour’s policy solutions to all of Scotland’s problems are…….. to carp, lie and smear from the sidelines. They have nothing else to offer.

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If you are so sure of your facts, then why not challenge Andrew Neil to a debate on his TV show to discuss the SNP funding cuts that you say do not exist?”

    I’d absolutely love to. Drop him a line and sort it out with him, would you? He hasn’t been answering me since the weekend. I can be available any time that suits him.

    (Mind you, I’m pretty sure “talking the talk” is what a debate is actually about. We wouldn’t be walking anywhere.)

  11. manandboy says:

    Oath of membership:

    “I promise to tell lies, always lies, and nothing but lies, so help me Ken, Father of Lies, and John, Prince of Darkness.

    No – not Satanists, just BBC employees.

  12. jimnarlene says:

    Another day in the life of crazy UKOKers, damn the facts, SNP baaad!

  13. Embradon says:

    Is there a breakdown available of the amount spent annually on payments for Labour’s PPP/PFI legacy?

  14. galamcennalath says:

    Another excellent article.

    Today’s tactic is criticism of the SNHS and through that the SG and SNP.

    However the overall strategy remains the same.

    Deny the SNP and majority in May by any foul means. And, in so doing, kick any possibilities of independence into the long grass. Then proceed with important issues like further impoverishing the poor and pissing off the rest of Europe.

  15. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh look #1
    Everyone’s favourite Tuba player is caught in a flat out LIE yet again.

    Oh look #2
    S******d’s *cough* favourite newspaper spreading the word of their bosses a.k.a. the Tory party!

    Oh look #3
    BBC (Dis) Reporting S******d will be running this shite as their top story … Quelle surprise … NOT!

    Oh look #4
    Call Kay with an “E” will be spouting SNP BAAAD for weeks on end

    Oh look #5
    The actual cause of the drop in spending, building the new Mega Hospital was actually built ON TIME and UNDER BUDGET.

    Funny how a project, ANY project, that comes in on time and under budget under the current S******h government gets the slimmest of mentions … I wonder why that is … oh that’s right to do so would be SNP GOOOOD! 😀

  16. muttley79 says:


    You accuse someone of being deluded, and then you go on to say that Andrew Neil should debate with Stuart Campbell. They are both journalists, so I think you should be aware that it is not normal for journalists to have a formal debate with each other. That is the job of politicians.

    Carry on shouting at the moon wings and to your brain washed followers, as that is all you are good for.

    If you really did think this then why on earth are you posting on here? Are you worried about something, for example the Scottish political situation and scene perhaps? 😀

  17. K1 says:

    Hey Johnny! I’ll have you no it’s ‘mindwashed’, none ‘o yer common or garden variety ‘brainwashed’ pish.

    At least our minds are being fed solid, factually sourced information, not the brainwashed spin cycle shit that you obviously prefer.

    ‘A real man…’? Ooh…that’s fightin’ talk right there, ‘talk the talk’. ‘walking the walk’, yer a walking’ talkin’ cliched livin’ doll.

  18. Clootie says:

    ….and they got away with this crap in the past…but not now thanks to you Rev and the many wingers who will circulate this far and wide.

  19. Lesley-Anne says:

    If you are so sure of your facts, then why not challenge Andrew Neil to a debate on his TV show to discuss the SNP funding cuts that you say do not exist?

    Don’t be such a silly Billy Johnny.

    Andra Neil will NEVER agree to that. He is too big a COWARD and too FEART to be shown up for what he really is a LIAR and MISINFORMER to agree to anything so informative as a TV debate with Stu.

    Secondly Johnny, if Andra did do as you suggest then all his *ahem* credibility as a saviour of the Union and killer of S******d would be shown up for what it really is … nothing but HOT AIR! 😀

  20. Finnz says:

    “to discuss the SNP funding cuts that you say do not exist”

    I assume Jonny missed the bit from Audit Scotlands report that clearly shows an ‘increase’ in NHS funding in Scotland. No change there then for the majority of such fellows.

    What i do find significant is the protection that the NHS in Scotland has received from the Scottish Government despite the eye-watering real-terms reduction in Holyroods budget of 10%, and its performance when compared to Health Boards in England presently suffering severe shortages amid a funding crisis.

  21. K1 says:

    An another thing Johnny come lately!

    You may like yer country and the party voted for, by the people of that country, talked down repeatedly by fucknuts like MacDougall and his band of depressed Labourplacemen.

    We don’t!

    Only a proudbut Scotsman or a unionist Britnat would support the denigration of Scotland’s government. Ye’s aw relish the prospect of anything and everything ‘failing’ in Scotland.

    It’s truly repellent and pathetic, how low yer mind’s have sunk, all because of what? SNPBAD.

    That’s all you’ve got…and the usual boring insults to those of us who give more than a fuck about our future, than the likes of you can ever fathom.

    Now Fuck Off.

  22. Proud Cybernat says:

    First we have the REAL story:

    “An independence supporter was attacked today by a group of thugs as he came to the rescue of an 80-year-old pensioner.”

    And how the Corporate Media would present the story:

    “Independence supporter … attacked … pensioner.”

    All the same words in the same order but a very different ‘spin’. Perhaps a bit strong – but you get the idea. This is essentially how the sabre-nat Corporate Media are operating to undermine Scotland’s democratically elected government.

    But Social Media will ensure that they will fail. They ahve yet to realise that and so they continue with their tripe in the hope that if they say it often enough, folks will start to believe it.

    “Knock, knock, McFly. SOCIAL MEDIA!!!!”

  23. Dezcore says:

    Re PFI, report said currently 207 Million. Rising to over 300 over next 10-15 or so years. Only got half way through before interruptions. Makes me appreciate the effort of Stu etc all the more.

  24. Lesley-Anne says:

    Embradon says:
    22 October, 2015 at 4:25 pm

    Is there a breakdown available of the amount spent annually on payments for Labour’s PPP/PFI legacy?


    Good question Embradon.

    I’m sure that somewhere in the deep dark depths of some annual report somewhere the figures will be available. The only thing I would say is that just make sure you are:

    a) sitting down

    b) sober

    c) plenty boxes of tissues ready to hand (NOT to be thronw anywhere … see d) below 😉 )

    d) nothing throwable is within easy reach (hate to think you would M.I.A. whilst waiting on a new monitor 😀 )

    e) you have plenty alcoholic beverage in the hoose ready to be consumed immediately after seeing the figures 😀

  25. IG says:

    Folks, please remember this is the Daily Record. I know it’s annoying to hear about the shite they write but please bear in mind nobody reads it. OK, to be factually correct – almost nobody reads it. Those that still do are either died in the wool Labourites with framed pictures of Ian Gray on the wall or a particular type of hun – both of whom are beyond redemption anyway – so what’s the problem?

  26. Harry McAye says:

    Jonny says “Something like a live debate with Andrew Neil would take a man, a real man that is and you haven’t got the guts to do it have you?”

    It would also take an invite!

  27. AndyH says:

    What is it with these Unionist lickspittles?

    You’re the one barking at the moon

    A big hairy arsed, full on Scottish moon.

    Kiss it!

  28. heedtracker says:

    Stephen Daisley ?@JournoStephen 19m19 minutes ago
    I disagreed with his Mhairi Black piece but @iainmartin1 is right. His “English-ish” accent is what riles some Nats

    Our freelance fraudster RT’s.

    It’s not English-ish accents, its your relentless UKOK lies, you pack of far right British shysters.

  29. Lesley-Anne says:

    Dezcore says:
    22 October, 2015 at 4:46 pm

    Re PFI, report said currently 207 Million. Rising to over 300 over next 10-15 or so years. Only got half way through before interruptions. Makes me appreciate the effort of Stu etc all the more.

    Thanks for that wee bit of info Dezcore.

    I wonder if there is any way we can drag wee Gordie Broon into court for a lawsuit against him on the grounds that HE, and HE alone, has cost the S******h N.H.S., Education etc £BILLIONS. 😉

  30. Proud Cybernat says:


    The final nail in the Union coffin has just been banged into the body as WM votes in favour of EVEL.

  31. yesindyref2 says:

    I vaguely remember during the threads in the Guardian about the infamous Health Act 2012, seeing that spending would actually increase in some aspects for the English NHS, to pay for the restructuring (yet another one, while the previous one was still taking place). That’s not increase in patient care or end delivery, but in terms of admin etc. There would be Barnett consequentials for such increases, to counter general drops in DEL.

  32. Davy says:


    I don’t think it’s helpful to use the highly offensive sectarian H** word. I mean after all the laws passed an aw. I agree the rhecord can be a nasty rag at times.

  33. nodrog says:

    As over 95% of the media including the BBC make up the Establishment Propaganda Machine you can be sure that every Thursday morning from now until May 2016 there will be banner headlines screaming “SNP Bad”. This is timed for FMQs to try to make a silk purse out of a Sow’s Ear (put your own name to any sow’s ear you fancy). Get used to it, it is not going away soon.

  34. K1 says:

    So EVEL was passed by 312 to 270 against. Our representation in the UK parliament has officially been restricted by this vote.

    What now?

    Do our 56 walk out and come hame and just declare Scotland is now an independent country?

    I wish.

  35. yesindyref2 says:

    This is a bit tangential and vague, so sorry about that, but we saw earlier this year complaints from the Opposition that the ScotGov had had an extra so many million, say £300 million for the sake of it, because of English NHS Barnett consequentials, so why weren’t the SNP spending it on NHS Scotland?

    The answer I think is that Barnett consequentials go into the NEXT year block grant, not the current year, and the current year budget has already been set. In addition there’s a substantial delay between the money being spent or at least budgetted in England, and the Treasury deciding on whether or not there is a consequential, and how much.

    Next year then the Scottish budget will also be set again, taking into account all of DEL, so there’s no real split according to what for the consequentials were being made in the first place.

    Don’t quote me, but this is approximately how it works, I think.

  36. Robert Louis says:

    So now Scottish MP’s are second class at Westminster. Soon the Chinese president will be taking lessons from the Tories on how to destroy democracy.

    I watched part of the debate, and considering how serious a matter was being discussed, blue tories and some of the red tories seemed to treat it like a jolly bit of fun, cracking jokes etc with each other. What a hoot! Un – freaking-believable.

    Amongst all the rubbish spouted there was one inescapable fact, the Tories were saying we must have English votes for English laws, yet somehow couldn’t grasp the notion of Scottish votes for Scottish laws. This at a time, when English MP votes will impose a new Scotland bill upon Scotland against the wishes of almost every single Scottish MP.

    The upside is, that this makes independence much more likely sooner, and will likely increase disputes and grievances from Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland.

    In many ways, the Tory party today fell into a trap of their own making. I hope they keep doing it.

  37. PRJ says:

    This kind of media reporting will continue unabated. Unless we find a way to negate there dishonesty.

  38. TD says:

    Proud Cybernat at 4:46 p.m.

    I really hope you are right and that social media comes to the rescue. The propaganda war being waged by the BBC, the Record and the rest can go one of two ways. Either they are successful and they convince people to vote against the SNP in the election next year and “No” in indyref2 or enough people see through their antics and are repelled by what they see. In this case, their tactics will backfire on them badly.

    I for one have made the journey from broadly believing most of what I saw and read in the mainstream media to being very sceptical about all of their reporting – even of news that does not directly involve Scotland. If they can lie and distort so blatantly about Scotland, why should we trust them on the Middle-East, Europe and Russia?

    This is a real battle for the hearts and minds of the Scottish people. Wingers already get it – thanks to Stu – but I don’t know how many of the general population understand that they are being manipulated and conned. One thing is for sure – when they do get it, they will flock to vote SNP/SNP and Yes in huge numbers. The unionists are playing a high risk game that suggests a level of desperation. So if they are desperate, maybe you are right.

  39. Bob Mack says:

    So, EVEL becomes law. The majority that voted to save the Union have been well and truly screwed with this move.

    Better together ? ——EVEL
    We love you————–EVEL
    Equal partners ?———-EVEL

    Many will be glad of this, not realising that Westminster has now officially dumped them . The SNP supporters will be ok .We have not been abandoned by something close to our hearts.


    You have no idea just how bad Andrew Neil would come out in a face to face with the Rev. I have followed both,and there is no comparison when it comes to knowledge of Scotland.
    Be careful what you wish for .

  40. IG says:

    I strongly disagree that the word hun is sectarian. It’s a derogatory term for supporters of a particular football team. Don’t bring religion into it. Just because some Rangers fans want to wallow in the same sense of victimhood as Celtic fans does not make it so.

  41. Lesley-Anne says:

    I’m just thinking outside the box at a tangent here. 😉

    Now that the EVEL vote has been passed and the Famous 56 are now second class citizens within Westminster why don’t they just do as they have been doing up till now … carry on voting. ( Isn’t that the name of an old movie by any chance? 😀 )

    What I mean is immaterial as to whether their 2nd class status allows them to vote or not just go ahead and vote anyway. I am sure they would be causing no end of chaos within Westminster as well as no end of hilarity to us S***s up in S******d. 😀

    Any vote that is carried out under EVEL could be held up constantly as S.N.P. M.P.’s constantly pass through the lobbies. The tellers would then have to take time to ensure the S.N.P. members were not added into the tallies. Time could also be taken up by each and every S.N.P. M.P. arguing the point that EVEL did not cover their ability to vote. 😀

  42. Effijy says:

    We must take out a large ad in the record to show exactly how corrupt they and the Labour party are in Scotland.

    I’m up for crowd funding as although the Rev has drilled into the lie to show us the true situation, 500,000 stupid souls may have read the record piece and feel comfortable that if its in the paper it must be true.

    Even a large Bill Board with some of these facts outside the Record’s offices would be good- Can we get one outside
    BBC England’s Scottish Office too?

  43. jcd says:

    Now now Johnny boy, no need to get your knickers in a twist. Don’t worry about the Rev appearing on that shitty little show, won’t happen.

    Because, like you, Andrew Neil is a COWARD.

  44. john king says:

    “I think it was “Anyone who complains without offering solutions is a cunt”.”

    Wasn’t that John Adams? 🙂

  45. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Lesley-Anne

    “Now that the EVEL vote has been passed and the Famous 56 are now second class citizens within Westminster …”

    It is actually all 59 of Scotland’s MPs who are now second-class MPs at WM, as well as those of Wales and Nprthern Ireland.

    Runway Three. Taxation without representation. HS2 – taxation without representation. It is all about to seriously unravel now… have fun!

  46. arthur thomson says:

    The attacks on the Scottish Government and the SNP will continue unabated. It is so important that Wings exposes them.

    They are testing the credulity of the Scottish electorate. It is a serious test and I am sure that our opponents are confident that their lies, smears, spin and half-truths will eventually wear people down.

    My hope is that they have seriously miscalculated – again.

  47. shug says:

    It certainly looks like Westminster has now a coordinated approach to attacking the SNP.
    The BBC all papers and all pundits are lined up to deliver their coordinated message.
    It is getting quite scary

  48. Dr Jim says:

    Could all people not having a vote in Scottish matters now Fukc off seeing as how it’s now official

    And it won’t be up for question or answer, we’re in a meeting

    Now if we were to do this the other way round I’m not sure folk would like it much, folk might accuse us of (what now?)

    Anyway, Blair who?….Man’s an Arse

  49. Brotyboy says:

    I think it was “Anyone who complains without offering solutions is a cunt”.

    I need a ‘Like Comment’ button. Now.

  50. Sinky says:

    The reality of devolution is that Westminster holds the purse strings. The funding formula by which the devolved governments receive their block grants is directly related to budget decisions made for England in devolved policy areas.

    The truth is that there has been a 10% cut in Scotland’s fiscal resource budget since 2010, and a 26% real terms cut in Scotland’s capital budget. Nevertheless, the Scottish Government has increased the Health resource budget by 4.6% in real terms – and every penny of additional budget consequentials accruing from health spending has been spent on health. This coming year, health spending in Scotland will break the £12 billion pound barrier for the first time.

    The practical consequences of increased health spending in Scotland can be seen in record staffing levels – up 6.5% overall, with record numbers of consultants, over 1700 more nurses, and a 7% increase in GPs under the SNP Government.

    Efforts to join-up health and social care that are threatened by the austerity agenda and the cuts that both front benches seem to have shackled themselves to. Local authority budgets are already under pressure and further cuts in the public services they provide, including the preventative and early interventions they fund, risks driving up still further the pressures on the NHS.

    The YouGov poll shows that net confidence in Scotland’s NHS stands at +55 per cent – compared to +43 per cent in England and only +10 per cent in Wales, where Labour is in administration.

    These figures come on the back of similar ratings included in the British Social Attitudes Survey which found that 75 per cent of people in Scotland are satisfied with the NHS – in comparison to 65 per cent in England and only 51 per cent in Wales.

    Previous polling has shown that the SNP is the party which is most trusted with Scotland’s NHS – and today the Scottish Government’s budget has increased NHS funding, which now stands at more than £12bn for the first time ever.”

    You Gov poll Party most effective at protecting #NHSScotland? SNP 47%, Lab 20%.

    Among 2010 Lab voters: SNP 43%, Lab 36%.

  51. Kevin Evans says:

    Just more shite.

  52. john king says:

    Nuthin wurse than a burst Jonny. 🙂

    bugger aff ya nyaff.

  53. Davy says:

    @IG 5.22

    Ah, they crossed the line when that stupid law was brought in. The whole of Scotland has yet to find out just how invasive it is. It reaches much further than a fitba match. Rangers were, and still are, a target for hatred based on jealousy. See the finger of blame pointed ( along with the polis camera ) at the support at any opportunity – even if unrelated to any direct incident. Rangers are the premier of clubs and deserve more respect. An asset to Scotland. If some can only get their blinkered bigoted goggles off they will see that. Most of which are in the SNP. I can’t imagine any Rangers fan voting for independence.

  54. galamcennalath says:

    @John King

    “Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining”

    – Teddy Roosevelt

    Yes, all the Onionists are doing is whining!

  55. John H. says:

    shug says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:35 pm

    “It is getting quite scary”

    Nothing to be scared of shug. Things had to come to a head sometime. Now the unionists are forcing the issue for us we must trust the SG to handle the situation properly.

    At least now some folk might be forced to face the truth and come over to our side.

  56. JLT says:

    I’ve been sitting rather quiet these last 3 weeks (busy with studies, work and basically, just watching Jeremy Corbyn; not only slowly losing control of his beloved Labour Party, but also of his once cheering enthusiastic support).

    Well …this has been a day of days. On the day that EVEL is finally waved through Westminster, our ‘Scottish’ papers instead decide to ‘attack’ the SNP’s record on the Scottish NHS. Only God knows what they will publish tomorrow when it comes to EVEL, but for today, I suppose in their own little way in helping to preserve the ‘Union’, our own ‘national’ papers are doing their little bit by ‘burying today’s bad news’ by focussing on the SNP’s NHS record.

    However, today was (in my book) the first of 3 issues that will ‘test’ Scotland in these next 2 years. Once the vast majority of Scots realise what EVEL truly means then there will be deep growls. The pretence by the BBC has already begun

    ‘When Scotland voted last year to remain part of the UK, David Cameron promised significantly increased powers for the Scottish Parliament, including the ability to set some tax and benefit levels.

    At the same time, he promised English MPs they would get more power too – they would be able to legislate in areas such as health and education without any input from MPs representing Scottish seats.’

    What on earth does the BBC mean that ‘at the same time’?. Scotland was ‘promised’ near-federalism as stated by Brown. Not once did Cameron, Miliband or Clegg refute Brown’s statement, thus allowing many Scots to believe that great changes were coming. By not denying Brown, Westminster parties therefore ‘implied’ that ‘home rule’ was coming. What we really got from all three Westminster parties was ‘deceivement’.

    EVEL only ever appeared once Scotland had voted ‘No’. For Scotland (both Yes and No voters), they were made to look incredibly foolish thanks to EVEL suddenly being thrown on the table within an hour of the result. How many Scots would have voted ‘No’ if they had known the full implications of EVEL if Cameron had thrown it on the table before the Referendum?

    Scots who voted ‘No’ walked into a trap (it wasn’t their fault. Naivety played a big part. No one really expected EVEL to appear so quickly) …but it is here now, so now we ALL have to deal with it; even the ‘No’ voters, and they of all people need to wisen up very quickly as to what it truly means for us all in Scotland.

    So the first piece of the unholy trinity that affects Scotland is finally here. Next up is the Trident vote, and then before long, the EU Referendum vote. By the time we are all debating our place in the EU, I believe Scotland will be in a very interesting place as it surveys what the Union really means. For the ‘No’ voters …they may finally begin to realise that when they voted ‘No’ to independence, that they also made a Faustian pact with Westminster.

  57. Lesley-Anne says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:31 pm

    @ Lesley-Anne

    “Now that the EVEL vote has been passed and the Famous 56 are now second class citizens within Westminster …”

    It is actually all 59 of Scotland’s MPs who are now second-class MPs at WM, as well as those of Wales and Nprthern Ireland.

    Of course you are right PC but in reality the *ahem* other three are pretty much 2nd class members already aren’t they? 😀

    I do agree about the treatment of the Welsh and Northern Irish M.P.’s though.

    Runway Three. Taxation without representation. HS2 – taxation without representation. It is all about to seriously unravel now… have fun!

    Just a wee aside here regarding HS2.

    Now that Hamcam has got his way with his EVEL plans surely that means that WE no longer are required to pay towards HS2, Crossrail (if anything is left to be paid for), London’s super duper sewer, new bridges across the Thames, upgrades to London underground and of course the third runway at Heathrow.

    In fact by passing EVEL today has Westminster not kicked all these projects and other out of their current “extraordinary expenditure” (sorry can’t remember the correct *ahem* title for them) into Barnett consequential covered projects?

    In other words instead of paying for English only engineering projects we now RECEIVE money from Westminster thanks to Barnett. 😀

  58. galamcennalath says:

    Fifty years from now, the history books will mark out one event on one date as the point of camel and straw.

    Could it be today with EVEL?

  59. Martin says:

    I just want to go on record that my opinion is that Blair McDougall is a fat, lying, useless bawsack.

    And I will stand by it.

  60. Iain MacLachlan says:

    Lesley-Anne says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:23 pm
    I’m just thinking outside the box at a tangent here ….

    I think that would be the best practice. Continue to vote as elected representatives should. What will happen? Will they be arrested for trying to vote?

  61. nodrog says:

    On the 19th Sept last year David Cameron snatched DEFEAT from the jaws of victory as he announced EVEL. Today they nailed the coffin shut. Scotland will be free and very soon. Thank you David.

  62. Macart says:

    After the tweet from Mr McDougall two ‘FACTS’ are inescapable – 1. Mr McDougall really should see a doctor about that fish supper on his shoulder and 2. The result is frankly insulting to those who can read.

    As for the Record? Same mince, different day.

  63. Training Day says:

    So, to sum up: The Labour- supporting Record is telling us it’s not the Tories fault.

    And didn’t EVEL go through quickly, while we still yearn forlornly for devolution of road signage..

  64. scottieDog says:

    The crescendo of bulls hit is becoming deafening designed to drown out even and all the other stuff the neo liberal hardliners ate up to. Budgets cut yet a government still pumping money into schemes designed to pump up property prices.
    Westminster for the banks by the banks.

  65. chris kilby says:


  66. GrahamB says:

    O/T just checking where QT was from tonight, it’s Grimsby, and discovered that it is from Edinburgh next week. More interestingly though it comes from Bath on 10 December – are you likely to be blacklisted Rev?

  67. Lesley-Anne says:

    Iain MacLachlan says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:59 pm

    Lesley-Anne says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:23 pm
    I’m just thinking outside the box at a tangent here ….

    I think that would be the best practice. Continue to vote as elected representatives should. What will happen? Will they be arrested for trying to vote?

    I think if they do continue on voting regardless (there’s that damned movie again 😀 ) then we will witness a lot of fun and games. Sergeant at arms rushing around pointing swords at S.N.P. M.P.’s threatening them if they don’t leave etc 😀

  68. Davy says:

    Don’t know why the pretend Scot’s are getting all upset. Seems a fair thing to happen. It must have scuppered the SNP somehow, otherwise the opposition would not have been there in the first place.

    It’s all looking pretty grim for independence now. Ceiling of popularity has been reached. The 56 have been pretty useless in Westminster. No clout and done nothing for us except moan. In Scotland, all the services are below par. No way to run a country.

  69. Rock says:

    The avalanche of lies from the unionists is as expected.

    It is clear that by every means possible, legal and illegal, they want to prevent the SNP from getting a majority in 2016.

    They will also try to reduce the SNP’s percentage share of the total vote by encouraging independence supporters to give the list vote to the Greens or Socialists.

    The SNP has inevitably been infiltrated.

    It is now upto genuine SNP and independence supporters to print and distribute these W O S articles to the public.

    Forget about the National. It will have near zero effect in favour of the SNP.

  70. Lollysmum says:

    Dr Jim says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    “Could all people not having a vote in Scottish matters now Fukc off seeing as how it’s now official”

    Thanks a lot Dr Jim & I love you too. I may not have a vote due to accident of birthplace but I like others here do my bit for the independence cause & I’m not going anywhere!

  71. sensibledave says:

    Bob Mack

    You wrote:

    Better together ? ——EVEL
    We love you————–EVEL
    Equal partners ?———-EVEL

    Bob, what on earth are you on about?

    What are you so damned afraid of? Why do you hate English voters so much that you cannot concede that we might have a fraction of the devolution that Scotland, Wales and NI has? Why do you think the Tories got elected? Why do you think that right of centre vote in England was 55%? Its democracy Bob.

    All the devolution that has occurred thus far came as a result of Westminster MPs voting to do what they think is right for each of the Home nations. At any one time, the majority of the MPs, in any of those votes, were English – who voted away their influence on the devolved matters – because it was the right thing to do.

    Why do you think the English shouldn’t have some of the same?

    Why are you so upset anyway? Given all of the other comments I am reading, this, apparently, plays straight into SNP hands. Its the end of the Union, etc, etc.

  72. David Briggs says:

    @Davy says:

    I and a good few other Rangers fans voted ‘Yes’ in the Independence Referendum and will do so in the next one. You live in a wee blue bubble with zero imagination. I can’t begin to imagine your thought processes to be frank. Rise up your knees and vote for your country’s freedom. Don’t be a tit all your life.

  73. Cloggins says:

    I’m certain you can take discrimination to the European Court of Justice. You are not alone – aliens may come to the rescue.

  74. Nana Smith says:

    O/T starting 7pm

    How the BBC Stole the Referendum

  75. Lesley-Anne says:

    Well well well who would have thunk it. 😉

    Hamcam get’s his EVEL way and out come the Trolls with their “we’re Better Together” improvisation …


    S******d BAAD!

  76. charles mc says:

    Some fandans on here tonight. We will be free from westminster soon.

  77. Bob Mack says:


    Clearly you contribute without reading.
    The case for independance has just leapt forward by years.
    Educate yourself rather than making a fool of yourself

  78. frogesque says:

    Waves to Davy.

    Hope that thistle up yer backside isn’t causing you too much bother tonight!

  79. Muscleguy says:


    And that message, don’t just criticise suggest, was pushed home to those of us in RIC earlier this year. After of course Women for Indy did exactly and wonderfully that over the women’s prison issue.

    Which is why RISE’s embarrassingly ignorant criticism of the water contract tender made me very sad. I expected better of them than taking modern Scotland for fools, doing exactly what they accuse SLAB of doing. Must do better guys.

  80. Taranaich says:

    @Rev: I think it was “Anyone who complains without offering solutions is a cunt”.

    I was thinking something along the lines of “still says this is better than independence.” 🙂

    (For the record, by “other parties” I meant political parties, not the other definition of “parties” as in individuals like yourself who aren’t afraid to comment on SNP shortcomings. Not sure if I was clear on that or not)

  81. john king says:

    galamcennalath says:
    22 October, 2015 at 5:52 pm

    @John King

    “Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining”

    – Teddy Roosevelt

    Yes, all the Onionists are doing is whining!

    Note to self
    Irony does not travel.

  82. JLT says:

    Davy says

    ‘It’s all looking pretty grim for independence now. Ceiling of popularity has been reached. The 56 have been pretty useless in Westminster.’

    Seriously Davy??? Do you believe this is it? That this is as good as it gets for the Independence movement?

    David. This is just the beginning. Personally, we needed the Tories to act as we truly perceive them to be; nasty, inconsiderate, anti-Scottish fools!

    Many people in Scotland who voted ‘No’ will be angered by today’s vote for EVEL. In their eyes, they were lied to. This is not devolution, and it is not equality within the ‘family of nations’.

    Just wait till the four Trident subs get voted through. Yep, we’ll lose that one too, but in another sense, we win. We win because more people will awaken to the lies, and not only that, they will be aware that Labour MP’s voted for it too! So much for Corbyn and his anti-Trident stance. Labour can kiss their backside goodbye in Scotland at that point! Which means …more folk move to the cause of independence.

    And then we get the biggest lie of the lot. The EU Referendum. To the people of England, they will be told that it is all to do with immigration. Well. that’s a load of codswallop! In truth, it’s to do with control of the City of London and its banks. In other words, the Tory boys don’t want their greed, power, and megalomaniac control of the markets to be watched by the bureaucrats of Brussels who might just eventually decide that illegal shenanigans is still going on in the City. That’s what the EU vote is really about. Once the Scots cotton on that the EU Referendum is about protecting bankers bonuses and illegal deals, then many more Scots will jump to our cause.

    Simply put mate …it isn’t over. This is just the beginning …and we are sitting at 50% who want independence. I can’t see what the Unionists can throw on the table to get those percentages down. If anything …it will only continiue to go up!

  83. Famous15 says:

    Just heard Shelley of Scotland 2015 saying they would be covering the damning report on the Scottish NHS tonight.

    Now that is excellent and I trust the Westminster Government will be watching as their evil policies will be torn to shreds…

    “Hope springs eternal in the human breast”

  84. galamcennalath says:

    @Nana Smith

    Thank for that link. An interesting read. Quite clearly Tories haven’t read it.

    “The Evel proposal floated by the current government is perhaps the single greatest threat to the union ever considered and is proof in action that Scots are not British. It is utterly diabolical.”

    … Well now it has been passed!

  85. Taranaich says:

    Also, certain commenters questioning the Rev’s mettle: you are aware he has in fact appeared live on television, where he has in fact debated Scottish politics, on a number of occasions? No reason he’d decline now, given that we’re still even talking about independence after the “resounding” “decisive” “overwhelming” official result last year.

    For other commenters regarding recent bills: EVEL is not devolution, it is disenfranchisement. It is preventing elected MPs from representing their constituents in the parliament they were elected to. It is not “fair” no matter how loudly the Farages of the world scream and shout. An English parliament is an entirely different matter, because – like the Scottish parliament – every member of that parliament is entitled to vote.

    No, English/Welsh/Northern Irish MPs can’t vote on devolved issues. Neither can Scottish MPs. This is the UK parliament: if all UK MPs are not permitted to vote, then it is no parliament worthy of the name at all.

  86. Davy says:

    @David Briggs

    Either its propaganda posting or a tiny tiny minority. I know NO ONE who support the SNP for various reasons. I might be in my wee blue bubble but I love it. Freedom. My country is free. its called UK. Out of Bears respect, I will not call you any offensive name. Gie yersel a shake and a hard think before the next one. Our world is not the same place it was 10 years ago. Now is NOT the time to be breaking up countrys. Erope is about to implode. Scotland is not placed to cope without the EU teat to suck on.

  87. Davy says:


    You guys are in a world of your own. Nothing the SNP do will increase your support enough. Its going down. I’m happy they got EVEL. at least it makes it fair.

    As for the EU, we are going to vote out, just like England. Cant happen quick enough. That will be the final nail in the cofin for youse. All the SNP have done for us is waste money and votes that could have been used to actually change things. Not a load of jock wind from wishart and the rest. A total joke. SNP OOT

  88. Lesley-Anne says:

    Just a wee outside the box thought here.

    Now that Hamcam has his EVEL vote how will this affect any future Trident vote. I only ask because, obviously, defence is reserved for Hamcam and his mates in Westminster.

    Does this mean that only English M.P.’s will be able to vote to renew Trident?

    I wonder how the Tuba player and his mates feel now now that it appears OUR M.P.’s may well have no say in the renewal of Trident debate. There again they all knew this would happen though didn’t they?

  89. The Isolator says:

    @David Briggs says:

    Well said David..what goes through these peoples minds is a !ystery.

    As for wee Jonny, words fail me.Andrew fuckin Neil ran a perfectly decent daily newspaper into the fuckin ground in less than 2 years..deliberately. Another joker with a scorched earth philosophy doing just as he’s telt.Hence he ends up making tea at the BBC.

    GTF ya welt.

  90. heedtracker says:

    Why do you think the English shouldn’t have some of the same?

    Why are you so upset anyway? Given all of the other comments I am reading, this, apparently, plays straight into SNP hands. Its the end of the Union, etc, etc.

    Its no taxation without representation sensibledave. Anyway its typically BetterTogether mental that England or rather Project Fear BBC style terrified voters into voting NO. And now ofcourse having voted NO. Scots MP’s have told to fcuk anyway.

    It all seems very odd sensible.

    Why do so many more English voters vote tory than Scotland? Because they’re different countries.

    You never know sensible, there may still be enough proud Scotbuts around to save this ever more absurd union.

  91. galamcennalath says:

    Had a thought. Perhaps far fetched?

    EVEL. One way for the Tories to deal with ‘the Scottish problem’ is provocation.

    Shove our face in the shite and see how we react. If we do nothing, they will try again with something else. This approach might reinforce the view that it is all talk from a minority, and we won’t walk the walk.

    They might also try to ‘trigger’ an early IndyRef2 knowing that it is inevitable and perhaps sooner than later would improve their chances.

    Taking the bait could be just as dangerous as turning away.

  92. Anagach says:

    Davy says:
    22 October, 2015 at 7:04 pm

    I know NO ONE who support the SNP for various reasons.

    Since half the people in Scotland do, you must not get out much. Of course you may not be in Scotland.

  93. ArtyHetty says:

    Davy boy, would. you. just.

    This is an intelligent, fair minded, critical, news site, for inteligent people.

    Evel is the last straw btw.

  94. heedtracker says:

    And now ofcourse having voted NO, Scots MP’s have BEEN told to fcuk anyway.

    Sorry sensible.

    PS, this means there will never be another UK Scottish Prime Minister. Its not a good day for democracy in England either, if you’re not a toryboy that is.

  95. Lesley-Anne says:

    Davy says:
    22 October, 2015 at 7:13 pm


    You guys are in a world of your own. Nothing the SNP do will increase your support enough. Its going down. I’m happy they got EVEL. at least it makes it fair.

    I’m curious Davy.

    How does Hamcam winning his EVEL debate today make things fair?

    Who does EVEL make things fair for?

  96. Dr Jim says:


    Read the whole thing before you pick fights… Jeez..

  97. heedtracker says:

    C4 news just skipped over EVEL just the now too. TeamGB media, liars and frauds to the bitter end, unless they come back to it.

    Maybe the great Prof Tomkinski has a legal constitutional experts opinion, like he does about the on going britnat Scottish NHS tragi comedy attacks

    Nope, nothing. Most odd.

  98. gus1940 says:

    Is it possible to compel Andrew Neil to appear in front of The HoC Scottish Affairs Committee (Chairman Pete Wishart) for a dose of his own medicine?

    The Committee would have no shortage of ammunition to fire at him.

    Re The EVEL Vote – can we expect to see bouncers stationed at the entrance to the lobbies in case Scottish MPs try to vote on relevant matters?

  99. JLT says:


    You are either trolling or you are being a tad naïve.

    I have no problem with England having its own parliament …just not using the one known as the ‘UK’ one.

    Look …here is an example. Think it through.

    A Scottish MP becomes leader of the Labour Party. When it comes to voting on key items that only affect England, it means he has to leave the room. How does that work? How stupid is it for the leader of the opposition top leave the room.

    What it means in reality, is that never again will we have a Scottish, Welsh or NI Prime Minister; nor a Secretary of State for Education or Health. Those jobs are gone now because MP’s from the other home nations can’t vote on ‘English’ matters, when those matters are actually ‘UK’.

    Next, with all Scottish, Welsh and NI MP’s out of the room, it means that the Tories can vote through any budget designs that they want without any real serious opposition. Why? Because how many Scottish, Welsh and NI Tories is there? In reality, today just saw all opposition parties greatly weakened.

    Are you getting it now, David? This has serious implications for the ‘Union’. We, the Scottish Nationalists didn’t break the Union today; it was the biggest Nationalist party in the UK that broke the Union today (the ones that have a very big Union Jack behind them at every conference that they have.

    At this point, I leave you to finally realise what EVEL truly means. Continue with the argument, then you’re only highlighting your foolishness to everyone else. Seriously, you’re being educated here.

    Learn from it.

  100. Davy says:

    @Lesley Ann

    Makes it fair for the English no.

  101. All you need to do to counter act the Red Tories with regards to the SNHS is mention Wales. The WNHS is a complete shambles with entire health boards being put into special measures.

    Monthly ambulance response times have been hit a couple of times in as many years and waiting times for patients waiting longer than 36 weeks have rocketed by as much as 1700% in a few years.

    We in Wales would love to have an NHS as ‘bad’ as yours and that is something that SLAB should be reminded of as much as possible.

  102. Davy says:


    I’m not trolling I’m just a bit thick. I know that.

    I had no idea this is what it was. So the tories are actual bastards for doing this. I’m beginning to see. I dont understand how you can vave an English Prime minister then. Surely its just the same in reverse.

  103. Giving Goose says:


    You mentioned that the SNP wasted votes that could have changed things.

    Change what?

    What is wrong that needs changed?

  104. Lesley-Anne says:

    Davy says:
    22 October, 2015 at 7:34 pm

    @Lesley Ann

    Makes it fair for the English no.


    650 M.P.’s in Westminster.

    59 M.P.’s from S******d.

    and you say that,apparently, Westminster needs EVEL to make everything fair for the people in England!!!

    I’m sorry but I think I missed this topic at school. 😉 When exactly does 59 M.P.’s become MORE than 591 M.P.’s and have MORE power than the 591 non S******h M.P.’s?

  105. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh before I forget folks.

    Just to make sure that absolutely NO ONE 😉 is left in no doubt about what just happened in Westminster today.

  106. Doug says:

    From the BBC report on EVEL:

    Lib Dem Alistair Carmichael said the government “was still inviting” MPs “to do the wrong thing”.

    (He later added “and I, for one, don’t need to be asked twice”)

  107. Anagach says:

    Davy says:

    I’m not trolling I’m just a bit thick. I know that.

    Nobody is that thick.

  108. Davy says:

    @Lesley Anne

    Never thoght of it like that. Why do you blank out Scotland and Scottish ?

    Right now my brain is overloading. I need to think about this lot for a bit.

  109. Sensibledave says:

    heedtracker 7:21 pm

    “PS, this means there will never be another UK Scottish Prime Minister. Its not a good day for democracy in England either, if you’re not a toryboy that is.”

    That may well be true Heedy – but only because the government, whoever they are, have chosen not to have leader that isn’t Scottish. Up to them Heedy. Democracy Heedy. Democracy.

  110. Davy says:


    See, that doesent help. I really still dont get it totally. I knew someone would take the piss.

  111. One_Scot says:

    I’m probably just as thick as Davy above, but can someone confirm, as a consequence of EVEL, does this mean that there will never be another Scottish UK Prime Minister.

  112. heedtracker says:

    That may well be true Heedy – but only because the government, whoever they are, have chosen not to have leader that isn’t Scottish. Up to them Heedy. Democracy Heedy. Democracy

    Will we still chat sensibledave, after Scottish independence?

    Also sensible, this a dreadful thing to say anywhere but you know that dont you

    “Why do you hate English voters so much that you cannot concede that we might have a fraction of the devolution that Scotland, Wales and NI has?”

    For starters, YES voters didn’t want English voters to have a fraction of devo, they wanted them to have all of it, but oh no, BetterTogether is the only UKOK way for you too small, poor, stupid Scots,

    you big dope.

  113. Bob Mack says:


    Prior to this nonsense today ,the votes in Parliment were about party politics i.e Labour v Tory policy.

    The Tories have now gone beyond that and made it country v country politics.

  114. Lesley-Anne says:

    Davy says:
    22 October, 2015 at 7:49 pm

    @Lesley Anne

    Never thoght of it like that. Why do you blank out Scotland and Scottish ?

    Right now my brain is overloading. I need to think about this lot for a bit.


    Didn’t you get the memo from the Branch office Davy? 😉

    I was certain everyone in S******d received a copy. In the e-mail it very clearly said that no one should ever, in future, mention S******d by name. The only parts of S******d that can be mentioned are individual cities.

    I think you will find that most folks on here will agree that they received their copy of the e-mail. We were all cc’d on the original e-mail that was sent to a certain Jeremy Corbyn.

    If you are in any doubt the please be my guest and ask the Branch Office manger, one Kezia Dugdale!

  115. HandandShrimp says:

    I’m probably just as thick as Davy above, but can someone confirm, as a consequence of EVEL, does this mean that there will never be another Scottish UK Prime Minister.

    Difficult to say. Probably not from a Scottish constituency.

    However, in the unlikely immediate prospect of a landslide Labour victory they could repeal this and do their own thing.

  116. Lesley-Anne says:

    One_Scot says:
    22 October, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    I’m probably just as thick as Davy above, but can someone confirm, as a consequence of EVEL, does this mean that there will never be another Scottish UK Prime Minister.

    That is indeed my understanding and that as a lot of others One_Scot. Not only will there never ever be another S******h P.M. but I believe there can never ever be a Welsh or Northern Irish P.M. either.

    Not only that One_Scot there can, as I understand the workings of EVEL, never ever be a S******h,Welsh or Northern Irish Secretary of State.

    I’d even begin to question the true viability of Fluffy in his current post of Viceroy of S******d.

  117. CameronB Brodie says:


    My country is free. its called UK

    Would it surprise you to find out your are actually up the wrang dreal. The UK is not a country, it’s a unitary state incorporating more than one country/nation. A bit like the old Soviet Union in structure and similarly unjust and unsustainable.

    Hope that helps. 😉

  118. Davy says:

    @Lesley Anne

    OK. I admit i was taking the piss a bit myself before but I’m not now. I dont Know anything about emails from corbyn. I was more likely to vote UKIP. I never vote. thats honest.

    I half want to believe the SNP but …. enough for tonight. My heads nippin wae this.

    Thanks for the info from people.

  119. Onwards says:

    It would be fine if the Scottish parliament had full economic powers. But it doesn’t.

    Plenty of apparently English issues have a knock-on effect in Scotland with regards to our funding.

    The UK parliament is already effectively the English Parliament because of the huge majority of English MP’s
    Scottish MP’s had minimal influence anyway. Now they have even less influence. There is little point even sending them there.

    Surely it would be better to have 2 equal Parliaments, then have a new relationship of equals in a better Britain.

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    The Devolution acts of 1998 left a fatal flaw in them. 3 out of the 4 countries of the UK were devolved, but one, the biggest one by population, wasn’t. There was no interest there, after all, to all intents and purposes, England in terms of voting superiority and weight of MP numbers, is the UK. Why have a separate parliament for it?

    It all drifted fine until the very public referendum campaigns when the Indy side claims correctly that Scotland contributes, with the same comparative deficit, £4.4 billion more to the UK than it gets out. Which was true taking into account geographical oil.

    On their side the Union side claimed we got £1300 (?) more per head for public services than England did. Which was also true. What they didn’t point out was that it was our own money. Nevertheless we were “subsidy junkies”.

    Well it was a NO vote, but those perceptions haven’t died, they were too prominenet during the Indy campaign.

    Now we have EVEL, still without England being devolved, and what was a fatal flaw is now going to form into a crack, a fissure, a gaping chasm. The only way to fill that chasm is to very quickly set up an English parliament, and all four countries have our very own Parliaments, our own separate budgets. It won’t happen, there’s still no appetite for it in England. After all, England is the UK, in terms of superiority of population numbers and numbers of MPs. It doesn’t need its own Parliament, it already has it.

    It won’t be long now.

  121. Dr Jim says:

    If it were to come about that a Scottish MP were chosen to be a Party Leader then went on to be elected as Prime Minister under this latest stupidity he couldn’t vote on a purely English issue if he represented a Scottish Constituency (eg God Forbid but say Ian Murray )

    I’ll stand to be corrected if somebody’s got good constitutional knowledge that’s different

    Christian Allard MSP isn’t allowed to vote in the EU Referendum

    Think about what Cameron’s done:Bedroom Tax to clear the poor out of London
    Cut Tax Credits to the poorest people so they can’t live in London
    Give all his rich mates access to property so they can clear even more poor out of London
    No immigrants in London unless they’re Rich ones
    Now the big one: Hellooo China ya wanna buy a house or many

    These are very very bad people and Scotland is on the Property List
    They’ve done it before and they’re going to do it again, unless we can stop them

  122. heedtracker says:

    Difficult to say. Probably not from a Scottish constituency.

    However, in the unlikely immediate prospect of a landslide Labour victory they could repeal this and do their own thing.

    Its going to be another decade at least of tory, so its splitting hairs over the likelihood of a Scottish prime minister of the UK. It cannot happen now.

    No one in Scotland can represent Scotland in Westminster and become prime minister. Its the perfect disenfranchisement of ever Scottish voter.

    Which also explains why national news outfits like C4 barely give it a mention.

    Perfect fraud on 5.3 million people. What’s the point of even voting for your Westminster MP if you’re in a Scottish constituency now?

    Think about any other Western state pulling this kind of fraud on 5.3 million of its citizens?

  123. Papadox says:

    The state propaganda machine is cranking up for the Holyrood elections and things are going to get much worse to try and protect the establishment. They must try and maintain the old mirage of the tories, labour & the Libdems as different faces of the establishment, they are not, they are the one establishment.

    The establishment is very frightened by Scotlands awakening and now since the peasants won’t come to heel the attack dogs including their Anglo Scottish bum boys and wannabes are being activated to terrorise the Scottish unenlightened and scare them into bending the knee and kissing their ring.

    Hence all the “intellectual & political heavyweights” are being kicked into action to smear and spread the lies and misinformation on the English states behalf. Payback time!

    The pigmys or hangers on of the state. EBC, ITV, MSM, A NEIL, J BAILLEY, B Mc DOUGAL, et al are all fighting for their place at the trough so no holds are barred all in anything goes.

    As for John above. Who did you get to type that load of shit for you or do you work in GCHQ and just following the script.

    Think they are coming to fight us. Gandhi was correct, looks like the end game has begun!

  124. Macart says:

    Well with the debate and vote on EVEL today, at least we’re aware of why the press went into SNP baaaad overdrive.

    312 – 270 no less. Who knew?

    Light blue touch paper and let’s see how many titles run with this as Front page news in Scotland tomorrow and explain exactly what this means for Scotland’s representation and electorate.

    Tick tock for both the media and Westminster after today’s vote.

  125. Alan of Neilston says:

    Now that they have passed it ( E .V .E .L) We Have to sit back and let it progress over the life of this Parliament!! So be it. Why don’t the Scottish M.P’S declare the” Games A Bogey” not worth it!! and declare removing themselves from this Sham of “DEMOCRACY” ? Lets remove ourselves from this Institution it’s not delivering anything for us? Anyone Disagree!!

  126. Clydebuilt says:

    The Tuba player is paid by the Establishment to ……..Be Blair MacDougal

  127. Bob Mack says:

    @Alan of Neilston


  128. heedtracker says:

    Lets remove ourselves from this Institution it’s not delivering anything for us? Anyone Disagree!!

    Has to be referendum. Otherwise they’ll have tanks on the Holyrood lawn.

  129. Lesley-Anne says:

    Stu might find this wee ditty interesting … after all the writer is saying he pulls Stu’s argument apart. 😉

  130. galamcennalath says:

    yesindyref2 says:

    “England in terms of voting superiority and weight of MP numbers, is the UK. Why have a separate parliament for it?”

    Yes, scale matters, that’s part of why we are where we are. However, there is also attitude.

    England is the default in the minds of many who live there, everything else deviates from that norm. Deviation means inferior, if you subscribe to the view that default is ideal.

    I’m not saying everyone down south thinks like this, however I’m sure it’s common thinking among many on the right and among English nationalists.

    This can all lead to a sense of superiority and from that entitlement. Then, when they are told by right wing politicians and media than one of the small deviant add on bits of the UK might be getting a better deal, they over react and cast what little democracy there is to the wind.

  131. Croompenstein says:

    Could have cried when that sneevling, brit bum licking low life fucker Costa intervened on Tommy’s speech. The worst kind of Scot on a par with Mundell make you fucking sick.

  132. Clydebuilt says:

    Re EVEL….. Heard on radio S_ _ _ _ _ _ d that EVEL is to be re-evaluated after a year……

  133. Tam Jardine says:

    So my understanding of evel is that our budget is determined by Barnet consequentials so any decision that English MPs make on a purely English matter has a direct effect on the Scottish budget.

    So if English MPs vote to fund an enormous statue of Cameron astride the Thames we would get a consequential amount of dough. Without our representatives having a say on the decision.

    And if English MPs vote to slash the English budget in some way – we get less money. Without our representatives having a say on the decision.

    Is that right?

    If so, that’s the union over right there: on this very day.

    That will be one of they triggers for indy 2 right there.

  134. Angra Mainyu says:

    We are officially in ‘anything goes’ territory — anything that undermines Scotland that is.

    “Why don’t the Scottish M.P’S declare the” Games A Bogey””

    You won’t hear a peep from Scottish MPs or the SNP. Too many comfy careers on the line now.

    As I said before, it’s the Mohawk Valley formula applied to Scottish politics. And in the background they are decimating our economy.

    Dark times. All we can count on is that the Scottish people will do nothing. Something in the Presbyterian psyche makes them a shower of shit-shovelling , cap-doffing, cowards when it comes to confronting authority.

  135. Angra Mainyu says:

    Tam: “That will be one of they triggers for indy 2 right there.”

    Want a bet?

    As for the union being over, let’s be honest, it was never a union — a team of rich guys sold the country to another group of rich guys. From that point on Scotland was officially a vassal state, a useful source of cheap labour and resources, nothing more.

    A nation of meek slaves.

  136. R-type Grunt says:

    @ Jonny

    Drunk at 4:14pm. G’aun yersel’ wee man.

  137. thomaspotter2014 says:

    Today’s date:


    We should mark this day out for CELEBRATION OF THE END OF THE UK.

    Might not be apparent now but it’s over and out for the farce that ‘was’ UK government.

    IT’S OVER.


  138. Tackety Beets says:

    RS tonight cuts Nicola off mid sentence ?

    We mentioned earlier questionable preparation.
    Bear with me see if I’m maybe being dim , aye ok nae the first time.

    TV interview with Ian Stewart MP , Mudell’s side kick , explains that EVEL is to redress the imbalance due to devolution etc.

    “I can’t vote on matters of Education in Scotland ” he retorts.

    I feel SNP MP should reply “I was elected to UK parliament too and I can’t vote on Education in Scotland either “.
    If need be follow up with ” Conservatives along with other parties are elected to the Scottish Parliament to voice their view on Scottish Education”.

    Much as I like Pete Wishart , I feel the “dogs dinner” , bourach, type rhetoric does not really hit the mark.

    Radio News tonight implied that EVEL is to be implemented immediately ?
    Funny that yet not a single NEW , post Ref 14, power arrived @ Uk Gvt for S…………d or whatever the fcuk it’s called .

  139. Ruby says:

    Does anyone think the Tories would have voted for EVEL if they had more than 1 MP in Scotland.

    In view of the fact that the Unionist parties in Scotland are just branch offices taking order from Westminster does that mean that effectively English MPs are making decision about Scottish devolved issues?

  140. caz-m says:

    Did Audit Scotland need to release their report today?

    Or was it done today so it could draw fire away from the EVEL debate that was happening at Westminster.

    All the Unionists in Scotland know that EVEL was not included in the VOW, so to stop it becoming the top story in Scotland today, they released this NHS report.


    That way the Daily Record and the rest of that shower get off the hook by printing an SNP Bad story.

    Smoke and mirrors.

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Angra Mainyu
    The ‘Cringe’ isn’t a naturally occurring psychosis, it’s a traumatic response to Scotland’s psychic pummeling over 300 years of UKOKarry.


    The Union was agreed 250 years before Britain attempted a proper democracy. It looks like the Union might end in a similarly undemocratic environment. 🙂

  142. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Davie

    Sorry your heeds nipping. Most folk on here have been reading up on this stuff for a long time and have the facts off the cuff.

    If it helps When the Westminster Gov votes on English issues – they get what they want about 99% of the time.

    When the Scottish MPs attempt the same it is about 26%.

    If you persuaded every voter in Scotland to lobby their elected MP’s on a single issue and they were unanimous in their voting – at Westminster this would amount to a grand total of 9% of the total vote.

    How do you run a country on 9%, or a company or …. well anything really.

    But this was not good enough for them. These people come from a long line of Carpetbaggers – not wealth creators, but thieves, and I include the Labour party in this, Red and Blue together.

    Their main policy just now is the selling off of the nations last assets, particularly the NHS. They want to replace it with the American model.

    Just so you understand how much money this is worth to them, if you can look up Professor Alyson Pollock on You Tube.

    But briefly, the Health Industry in America is worth 25% of America’s Economy. What’s wrong with that you might ask, well, on its own not necessarily anything, except that when their loved ones are ill and the Insurance Company finds a loop hole to stop paying the health care – then people are really caught by the short and curlies.

    2/3rds of all Bankcrupcies in America are due to Health Care Bills and it is the number one cause of homelessness.

    And over 200 of UK politicians Tory, Labour and Lib Dems have declared interests with private Healthcare firms. Funny auld world – as long as they declare the interest they can vote as they please – any conflict of interest to the public is of no account.

    So how does EVEL affect Scotland. Well, for every £10 spent in England on the English NHS, Scotland gets £1 in the Barnet Formula. Up till now we’ve been able to sit at the big table and mitigate some of their policies which have a direct knock on affect in Scotland.

    Evel has now locked us out of the room.

    Oh and one last sweetener re the NHS – a big chunk of our tax pays for it – maybe 30%, maybe 50% – I’m not sure, but our parents and grandparents and us, these generations have built it up from scratch. The Carpetbaggers – they’re not looking to stop you paying this tax, they’re just looking to make you pay again and again for a service they’ve stolen and handed to their business pals.

    I hope this helps explain some things to a newcomer. Don’t take anything on face value, please do you research. Best wishes to all. PS get your tin hats on, there will be more of this Westmonster stuff to come.

  143. Wuffing Dug says:

    thomaspotter @9.12

    It’s strange you know, I was getting out of my car earlier and had one of those weird feelings you get sometimes.

    Was exactly the same thing, thank fuck, it’s finished.

  144. galamcennalath says:

    Angra Mainyu says:

    “A nation of meek slaves.”

    One thing the ruling class in London must have learnt over the last 300 years is they can do what you want to the Scots and they just take it.

    Some of us would like to think we will finally grow a pair. Let’s be honest, after last September, the jury is still out.

    So, EVEL. On past record, perhaps they think they will get away with it.

    A trigger? Perhaps they are calling our bluff in this too. Daring us to declare a trigger.

  145. Phronesis says:

    ‘England’s dominant size means that English taxation and spending decisions will have a stronger influence on UK-wide monetary policy. The policy may not be consistent with the fiscal policy chosen separately by the Scottish government. Given that the UK government has committed to deliver the Smith Commission recommendations, and the fixed asymmetry of nations,we are firmly in a second best world.

    In our view, the influence of English decisions on the Scottish economy justifies a Scottish vote on English laws. One might ask whether the reverse is also true: should English parliamentarians also retain a vote on Scottish fiscal policy? Here, we argue that the case for English votes for Scottish laws is much weaker…

    With monetary policy more responsive to fiscal policy set by the English Grand Committee (presumably by a Conservative majority), this would have been to the detriment of Scotland…

    Scotland stands to lose more by EVEL than England. The reason is that the monetary policy chosen by the central bank will be much more strongly influenced by economic conditions in England… than by those in Scotland’

    Armstrong, Angus and Ebell, Monique. The Unintended Consequence of English Votes for English Laws. National Institute Economic Review 233(1), R37-R44. 1-8-2015

    A very objective summing up by 2 academics who have no particular agenda with independence. They do point out that this is an asymmetric union and use very sophisticated economic modelling to tell us what most of us already know. Scotland is a rather irrelevant footnote in the UKOK political pantomime script.

  146. North chiel says:

    “Spot on” “Papadox “, the “establishment” know exactly
    How the referendum was “won” .Expect them to adopt
    similar tactics for May 2016. The “Metropolitan political cabal”
    usually ignore the “parish council” elections in “Jockland”,
    but NOT THIS TIME .
    Expect a “barrage of propaganda” in the final 2 weeks
    with “Jeremy C” the “new GB ( Gordon Brown), with his
    anti trident left wing rhetoric especially for the consumption of
    natives. It’s “STOP NICOLA ” at any cost now.
    Hopefully the electorate will see through it ( this time) ,but
    They know a 7 or 8 percent swing could stymie Nicola.
    Thereafter , whether they are successful or not, Jeremy will
    have served his purpose and will be ditched for a “blairite red
    Tory ”
    Remember the ” media” won the referendum and in the General
    Election they were preoccupied with “Englandshire”. Not so
    Next May the “full spotlight will be on Holyrood”

  147. Ruby says:

    Hello Wuffing Dug

    You might want to watch your language. I’ve just been reading about the coffee shop in London that has been forced to change it’s name.

    I think ‘Fuckoffee Shop’ is a brilliant name but sadly it will not be allowed.

    I have to admit I prefer an Android Tablet to an ipad but no way would I choose Windoze over a Mac.

  148. Iain More says:

    Why call it EVEL when it is in reality English Tory votes for British Laws.

    I guess after todays Brit Nat Press and Media mob attack on SNHS it will be the Brit Nat mob attack on Scots Education tomorrow followed up by more Brit Nat glee at some other poor buggers in Scotland losing their jobs.

  149. davidb says:

    M@ Ruby

    My late Grandma always used to ask us, “you fuh tea or you fuh coffee?” . 🙂

  150. JBS says:

    EVEL passes. Westminster punishes Scotland for daring to hold a referendum on self-determination, and this despite the fact that the No side won. A giant slap in the face for all of Scotland’s unionists.

    Scottish independence is coming.

  151. Wuffing Dug says:

    Hi Ruby,

    That coffee shop would def get my business.

    r.e. Language, I think it’s gloves off now – current events n that!
    Think I’ll fall back on the Al Pacino ‘Scarface’ style swearing.

    I won my fuheeng rights! Right now!
    Say hello to my leetle fren diveed cumereen cock-a-roach.

    r.e. Macs etc. I have a galaxy note and love it – also got a lenovo laptop, its great, but win 10? * shite *

  152. Thepnr says:

    Assuming the Tories win again in 2020 then I can confidently state that there will no longer be a NHS in Scotland or rUK that will be recognisable.

    Private health insurance will undoubtedly take over from free at the point of care, the softening up process of the UK electorate has only just begun.

    Scotlands NHS can only be saved by voting for Independence.

  153. Tam Jardine says:

    Angra Mainyu

    Whatever. I am still wondering why you are hanging about… concern trolling or are you just trying to score dates like me?

  154. shug says:

    Just saw a labour councilor sharing the daily record article as truth

  155. Davy says:

    @Daisy Walker

    This is all way above my head Daisy. I’m far too thick for all this. I’ll be leaving this for others to get on with. I’ll vote the way everyone else votes. I know that Vanguard Bears are smart. I will follow them I think.

    Maybe a leaflet for idiots might help.


  156. Alan Of Neilston says:

    So far you have all missed the POINT!! There is nothing to be gained sitting back and letting it ( WESTMINSTER and 550 English M.P.S inter alia 312 TORIES) always talk , debate , maintain that the U.K. as it currently is constitutes the “sovereign will” of the BRITISH PEOPLE. Please lets find a way to GET OUT ??

  157. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Slightly O/T, but I didn’t start it!

    Hi Wuffing Dog & Ruby.

    The 2008 24″ iMac I bought via eBay arrived today. 3.06GHz Core2Duo, 1TB hard drive, 512MHz graphics card. £280.

    So how do I get all my stuff transferred, from my old 1.83GHz, CoreDuo iMac, to the new machine? Easy.
    Repartition the 1TB hard drive into two 500GB partitions, with the original OS (Yosemite) on the first partition and the second partition, empty, ready for my stuff.
    Connect the two machines via a Firewire cable and restart the new iMac in ‘Target’ mode, so its volumes appear on the old machine as volumes, on the desktop.

    Set up a clone with ‘Carbon Copy Cloner’ to transfer everything from my last backup on the old machine, to the empty volume on the new machine. Left them chuntering away when I left work tonight.

    Hopefully, it’ll all be over by the time I get into work tomorrow and I’ll be able to start up the new iMac from the cloned volume, where I left off on the old one, around 5.15pm tonight.

    Macs, the computers for the rest of us, who aren’t techie geeks…

  158. Col says:

    I think we are in for a rough ride here in Scotland. Things are gonna get a whole lot worse before they get better. Nicola and the rest of the SNP better grow a pair fast.

    I honestly think we have to regroup, organise and get the message out that Westminster and the media in this country are colluding to fuck us over big time.
    I’m not even talking about indy ref 2 either.

    Our broadcasters and print media have an agenda which has to be countered on a daily/weekly basis. I don’t think we are organised as much as we could be.

    Think everyone on the indy side need to gear up for a fight with everything that is coming our way.

    Westminster isn’t working could be a good name for the campaign to remind people decisions taken there are never in Scotland’s interests.

  159. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Davy.

    Is football the be all and end all of your life? Is it more important than contributing to foodbanks, or helping your fellow citizens, who find themselves bereft of a roof over their heads?

    Supporting a football team is ONLY a means of filling empty hours in your life, particularly on a Saturday afternoon. You have to ask yourself, “Why is my life so empty that I have to get all upset when people diss the footie team that I support?

    Football is no more important than rugby, or shinty, or athletics, or bridge. They, to the vast majority of us who don’t actually take part, actively, can be classed as ‘leisure interests’.

    You really have to do something more worthwhile with your life.

  160. ben madigan says:

    @ Davy you’re not thick! Who put that idea into your head?

    You just wandered into a pro-independence website! Full of people who have been thinking about Scottish independence (some of them for 40 odd years) and debating it for the last few years. You’ve just jumped into the deep-end and like you say, you’re not a great swimmer. Yet.

    As Daisy advised – read up on some things.Try to take on board a different point of view. I’m not saying to accept it but hold the thought that it exists and lots of people support it.

    As I advise – read the discussions as they develop and try to square the opinions with your ideas. See where they match and don’t. Work out your own point of view.

    Comment as you wish and prepare for the flack! We all get it at times.

    Best wishes as you proceed on your journey towards making up your own mind about certain political issues.

    It takes courage and a certain independence of mind even to take the first step – which you have already done

  161. Les Wilson says:

    What I am unsure about. EVEL has passed.
    So what happens when English go ahead with big infrastructure?

    Does Scotland still have to pay a share? despite having no vote on it! If that comes to pass, then they have shot themselves in the foot.

  162. Wuffing Dug says:

    @briandtt @10.38

    Nice one, hope that works out. Better get things back on topic or there will be a claw hammer swung at us or maybe a blow struck by the mighty sledge.

    Currently thinking about Yosemite Sam for some reason, don’t know why….

    Am as fucking mad as him right now due to evel.

  163. peter says:

    Are you aware that Blair Mcdougall is an anagram of “I Go Call Lard Bum”? which was surely heard a few times during the referendum campaign when they were planning to release another dose of misinformation

  164. Ruby says:

    Wuffing Dug says:

    I’ve got a Lenovo Yoga, iMac & Macbook Air. I have a cheapo Android phone. I hate phones but needs must. I think I’m eligible for a free upgrade to Windoze 10 but I’m sticking with Windoze 7 I hardly use Windoze. Windoze 8 was a disaster. I like the sound of the ‘Fuckoffee shop’ I think I’m going to take follow in Daveb’s late grandmothers footsteps and ask visitors especially the Unionist ones ‘you fu coffee?

    Brian Doonthetoon: Will you put Windoze on your 2nd partition. I have Windoze on mine with Parallels.

    I had a HD fail and had to re-install from ‘Time Machine’ it all worked really well. Very streamline & smooth.

    Your new imac sounds exiciting! Enjoy!

  165. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    I wonder with all this EVEL stuff resolved it will lead to the slow demise of the Anglo Scottiish Political commentator.

    Why will English MPs want to be interviewed on English affairs by the likes of Andrew Neil, Laura Kuenssburg and Andrew Marr? Similarly for Alan Massie, Fraser Neilson and Hugo Rifkind.

    England will need their own English journalists and commentators – will they not?

    And will any of these Ex-Pat Journos ever return home to an Independent Scotland?

  166. Big Jock says:

    I don’t think the significance if EVEL. Will be felt by your average no voter. A lot of the ones I met thought Scotland only got a population share of the oil. Have you ever tried to explain maritime boundaries to an ill informed no voter?

    Getting them to understand EVEL…. No chance They just assume Westminster does right by Scotland. They don’t study the mechanics.

    Remember a lot of these people haven’t read a book since school. The referendum was an inconvenience not a big decision. The best we can hope for is the SNP Mps to refuse to accept second class status and withdraw.

    Then if we can get the support of another 5% of no waverers It’s game on.

  167. CameronB Brodie says:

    Two classes of British MPs for two different economies? The one which is resource and production based might not get a say in it’s future, whilst the economy which is largely dependent on house-price inflation and casino banking, gets to call the shots. Not that EVEL will change much, it simply clears up a lot of uncertainty and exposes the stark UKOK reality.

    Is this the future of UKOK democracy?

  168. Lanarkist says:

    Ben Madogen. 10.34?

    Great post!

    Power tae yer Elbie?

    Keep on keeping on.

    EVEL is preparation for rump UK, just in haste!

  169. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    An eight page tabloid style newspaper can be printed for about 7p.

    We have done ten in Argyll and Bute – and posted them into every home on all occasions for about the same again.

    A couple of the huge lies exposed in such newspaper in every home, and you destroy the credibility of the liars on everything.

    We need to do something like that. WBB did something like that at the Referendum

  170. Robert Peffers says:

    Now I don’t watch TV but do use 3 TV sets, along with 3 computers, a Blu-ray PVR, a DVD recorder and an Xbox 360E, all hard-wired in a home network.

    Recently I’ve had some problems with a old TV’s interconnections. I decided to buy a new TV that had more and better connection ports. I went to PC World and was talking to one of their experts. There were several people nearby. I was telling the expert it was a shame to scrap a set that was o.k. if all you wanted was to watch TV.

    As I paid for the TV I said to the expert, (who really does know his facts), that I expected to now get another bout of bother from the BBC licence guys after PC World told them I had bought a new TV. I was informed that it was no longer the law that retailers informed new TV sales to the Licence guys. The name and address was just for PC World’s use.

    After I got outside and the unit stowed in my vehicle an old couple approached me. The man said, if I didn’t think it cheeky, what was I going to do with the old set. I said I’d give it to a good home. He said he and his wife didn’t have a TV and could they have it. I said yes, and if they got in the motorhome I’d take them to my house and return them to their house and set it up for them.

    Turned out they were Yesers and were interested to know that there was no reports from retailers to the license guys anymore for they, (the old couple), had no intention of getting a licence. The BEEB had harassed them for years. I actually wrote them a letter to send if they got bothered ever again.

    It sure looked as if they were not too well off, and believe me, if I call them an old couple, they are lots older than me and I’m early 80.

    So good for the environment, good for the OAPs, bad for the BBC and the Unionists – what’s not to like?

  171. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Big Jock at 11.11

    “A lot of the ones I met thought Scotland only got a population share of the oil.”

    But Scotland only got a population share.

  172. Big Jock says:

    I suspect this is the material change Sturgeon was awaiting. Just need to throw down the challenge. Go ahead with EVEL and we will withdraw and have a referendum on independence. Can’t say we didn’t give them a chance.If they ignore it this basically means they want to push us out the door.

  173. Big Jock says:

    After independence Dave!

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    England’s has a supply-driven housing crisis of catastrophic proportions. The UK’s economy (England), is not particularly productive, so is vulnerable to shocks (economic/technological/social, etc.).

    Can England’s problem be resolved without Scotland;’s resources?

    By Nigel M. Healy

    This paper reviews the main features of the supply-side policies pursued by the Thatcher Government in Britain between 1979 and 1990. It examines the performance of the real economy relative to historical and international trends and discusses the characteristics of a successful supply-side program. It concludes that, while the Thatcher era has yielded important economic benefits, the prerequisites for a sustained increase in the trend rate of output and productivity growth may not have been satisfied.

  175. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. Not that I think that Nigel M. Healy is necessarily impartial. He does appear to make a lot of non-deductive assumptions. 😉

    Also, can you make Scotch and drill Scottish oil elsewhere? What is England’s USP? Oh yeah, The Corporation of The City of London.

  176. CameronB Brodie says:

    And Morris Dancers and wealth of venal history, of course.

  177. Betty Boop says:

    @ Big Jock, 11:11pm

    Have you ever tried to explain maritime boundaries to an ill informed no voter?

    Getting them to understand EVEL…. No chance They just assume Westminster does right by Scotland. They don’t study the mechanics.

    I, sadly, have to agree with those sentiments. Made a similar comment elsewhere today where folk were “shouting” for UDI or saying this was the change which would trigger the next referendum. Nope, don’t think so; too many no voters don’t know or care about how we are treated and disadvantaged by Westminster. I spoke to a lot of ostriches during the campaign and their heads are still buried.

  178. yesindyref2 says:

    @Betty Boop
    I agree, it’s not a material change in itself but will hopefully slowly trigger a change in support for indy.

    It was the Labour party in Scotland and the 40 MPs who created the biggest fuss about EVEL last year and early this one, because it would mean they would lose Labour MPs and make it more difficult to get a majority in the HoC on “English matters”, if their majority was tight.

    Well, in the event Labour in Scotland got just 1 MP, but 24.3% of the vote, 707,147 votes, so hopefully some – many – of them will give up the towel with the UK and turn to Indy. As should the remnants of the Labour party in Scotland. And the LibDems, as EVEL is a step away from federalism, and democratic UK parliamentary representation.

    Dugdale and Rennie have a lot to think about.

  179. Dr Jim says:


    Totally agree if Labour in Scotland now don’t support Independence they’re nuts
    If at some time in the future the Labour party were to win a General Election and got all the MP seats in Scotland , when they sent them down to Westminster they wouldn’t be allowed to vote and that’s the long term Tory plan , to curb all threats to Tory Power

    And the bonus friends is: Scotland Fukced at the same time

    Chinese Tory Job Done: There will be no dissent or you’ll be held without charge (new human rights and all that) Chinese style will that be a 59 no rice

  180. CameronB Brodie says:

    Dr. Jim
    We’ll all better get used to measuring human progress through an economist’s lens. “Capitalism with Asian Values” does appear to be the long-term game-plan, as it has been widely considered the most ‘efficient’ forms of ‘capitalism’ yet tried. Alternatively, we could go our own way and try and make a better fist of things. I’m game.

    As an aside, it has been suggest4ed that Chinese society was restructured along feudal lines around 1,000 B.C. and remained essentially feudal until the Xinhai Revolution (Revolution of 1911).

  181. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    I’ve mostly stopped posting in the Herald but had to for this after BBC a half hour ago with Nigel Dodds of the DUP:

    “If England needs and deserves an English Parliament, then let’s have an English Parliament. Let’s stop twisting the Union Parliament into what it is not.”

    I think all Indy supporters knew during the Ref that Labour were going to lose out big time in Scotland because of their leadership’s support for a NO vote. It wasn’t a trickle it was a flood of people leaving Labour. Murphy had some chance of starting to put it right if he’d gone for a totally independent actual “Scottish Labour Party” but chickened out, and the 40 MPs didn’t want it either, with their eyes on bigger green pastures at Westminster. Well, all bar one got booted out for that, some could have been saved with courage rather than personal ambitious greed.

    Meanwhile I think if the Labour supporting media in Scotland continue their “SNP Bad” tack, rather than going beresk on EVEL, they’ll seal the fate of many of the remaining 38 Labour MSPs. There’s over 6 months of EVEL before the Holyrood Elections, and Scotland will learn, one way or the other, what it’s like to be a second-class country in the Union.

    Just for interest having mentioned Northern Ireland, they’ve been betrayed even worse than Scotland by EVEL. Unlike us, however, they have the right to hold an Independence Referendum or constitutional change one, without the permission of Westminster (I’d need to check that again). But I expect them, being wheeler-dealers, to extract more powers instead.

    Oh, if Labour had the sense to come out in support of Indy rather than the more moderate “neutral”, that’s be a “material change” in UK politics”. EVEL is too, but it will be slow to influence people to change to a YES. Labour coming out for Indy would be such an influence – and might give their party new life in Scottish Politics.

    Interesting times. My money’s on Indy Ref 2 late 2017 / early 2018 (May?).

  182. yesindyref2 says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    “Working with China
    A Five Year Strategy for Engagement between Scotland and the People’s Republic of China (Dec 2012)”

    Scotland has been quietly working towards trade relations with China for many years. The SDI has offices in Beijing, Hong Kong, Shanghai and Shenzen. It’s a huge, massive, enormous market for Scottish Businesses, even I’ve done a little business with China. Very handy it was too, it saved Christmas a good few years back in even more lean times! Santa was able to arrive, whereas we’d had to cancel him before.

  183. yesindyref2 says:

    @ME “whereas we’d had to cancel him before”

    should be “thought we’d have to cancel him before that”.

  184. CameronB Brodie says:

    It’s a dog-eat-dog world, I suppose.

  185. Angra Mainyu says:

    Tam Jardine says:
    22 October, 2015 at 10:09 pm
    Angra Mainyu

    “Whatever. I am still wondering why you are hanging about… concern trolling or are you just trying to score dates like me?”

    I’m not hanging around, I pop in from time to time. You suggest EVEL is a trigger and I express doubts about that so you call me a troll. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not offended, I just find it interesting that you call someone a troll like that because they express doubts about your opinion; I suppose you’re more used to people telling you how great you are…

    Anyway, the truth is that we don’t have any trigger. But don’t tell the fools and horses. Using withdrawl from Europe as a trigger is like saying aliens landing is a trigger.

    The more I think about this country, the more I think it’s screwed, but not because of Westminster, Labour, or the BBC, but because the people (generally speaking) are simply yellow. I think there’s something in the collective consciousness that amounts to a sort of cowardice when it comes to confronting British authority. The Irish and those here of Irish descent don’t have it so that narrows it down a bit if you want to try to explain it.

    How else do you explain them voting to be treated like idiots and fleeced? I waver at times and give them the benefit of the doubt, convince myself they were hoodwinked etc., but if they were conned then they chose to be conned because they were scared. And when you really think about that, that means they weren’t conned at all.

    We need to distinguished between Stockholm syndrome and plane old cowardice. Stop making excuses.

  186. heedtracker says:

    How else do you explain them voting to be treated like idiots and fleeced? I waver at times and give them the benefit of the doubt, convince myself they were hoodwinked etc., but if they were conned then they chose to be conned because they were scared. And when you really think about that, that means they weren’t conned at all.

    We need to distinguished between Stockholm syndrome and plane old cowardice. Stop making excuses.

    300+ hundred years of determined British English/Anglo domination has left its mark. People north of the border are no different from anyone else. This is why Scottish independence is perfectly likely to happen and succeed.

    Scotland is England’s oldest colony but even in countries they only controled for less than one hundred and fifty years, they left indelible English stuff.

    Look at Indian and Pakistan. There are nearly a billion Indians and their native language is English.

  187. JBS says:

    So what does EVEL mean for Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland? Taxation, without representation on matters which the Speaker of the House of Commons deems to be English-only matters?


  188. heedtracker says:

    Angra Mainyu says:
    23 October, 2015 at 3:08 am
    Tam Jardine says:
    22 October, 2015 at 10:09 pm
    Angra Mainyu

    This is one of the ways you extinguish Scotland from the British mind. This outfit detests Scottish democracy as much any of them but note how England becomes “we” in British history.

    How its done. Its everywhere too. I love Time Team and Tony Robinbson’s enthusiasm is infectious isn’t it. What Time Team always do though is say that in British history, the Romans ended Celtic Britain and that British Bronze/Iron age culture.

    This is a profound lie, a profound English lie about Scotland, where the Romans were defeated and Celtic culture continued and thrived and is still here today, all over the world too.

    All the union did was lay a giant union jack over the Scotland we know now. Once you begin to explore Scotland’s actual history and its development as a nation before the 1707, you immediately sense the “Scotland no longer exists” fury of unionists start to wobble.

    But none of this is ever mentioned by our chums in the south. The day Time Team start being honest about England and Scotland’s very different past, will be Scotland’s independence day:D

  189. Dan Huil says:

    Unionists want Scotland to fail. Obvious.

  190. Cag-does-thinking says:

    Subtle thing I have noticed of late in mainstream media papers is that when there is an NHS Bad story (as opposed to an SNP Bad story) they are using pics of NS rather than the old days when they would just show a picture of the outside of the offending hospital. They have to make the link to the Scottish Governemnt at all times which is getting a bit wearisome and seems counterproductive.

  191. Tam Jardine says:

    Angra Mainyu

    The thrust of your argument here and on previous threads is: might as well give up – the Scottish people are cowards, we will never be independent. That is what I’m responding to.

    You dismiss anyone else who is not similarly resigned in patronising terms. I am not offended either but we simply have nothing to say to each other. All the best

  192. Pam McMahon says:

    So, the entire nation of Scotland, Yes, No and Dinnae Kens has just been disenfrachised, and we all sit back talking about suitable “triggers” for another referendum?

    We still seeem to be well under the thumb, and liking the assumed position. Is this proud and ancient nation of Scotland about to die as the Westminster pig’s heid? What will it take for the sovereign people of Scotland to demand independence?

    We, the people of Scotland, are sovereign,and have the sovereign right to decide who rules over us, NOT the English parliament in Westminster, or the Scottish parliament in Holyrood.

  193. Hamish100 says:

    Select Committees including the Scottish Select will have English MP majorities.
    Tory SOS for Scotland, labour shadow SOSS
    It is called the Westminster question.

  194. Angra Mainyu says:

    Tam Jardine, you’re wrong about this: “You dismiss anyone else who is not similarly resigned in patronising terms…”

    I’m my experience there are two ways to get people motivated: 1) tell them they are great, winners, amazing, etc., or 2) tell them they are losers and challenge them to prove otherwise.

    Seems to me there are enough of you doing variations of option 1…

  195. Tam Jardine says:

    Angra Mainyu

    Thats a kind of wierd thinking. Just 2 approaches- one is to tell people they are cowards and the other is to blow smoke up their arse? No other way?

    I have never taken either approach. I try (when I can) to put forward positive ideas on this site to find a way forward. I try to change topic when we are going into attack piece territory with post after post slagging off todays enemy.

    You call the Scottish people cowards… useless… losers or whatnot. Thats your tactic? Boot camp motivation? I think the national movement has plenty of others slagging us off in the press, UK government, BBC without you doing the same. Fuck- there is enough of a national inferiority complex without cultivating it.

    I see a country where 45% of the population were forward thinking and the rest were either selfish, afraid, misinformed or genuinely had a strong attachment to the rest of the UK for whatever reason.

    We’ll never convince the selfish or genuine UK cheerleaders but we can make inroads in the other 2 categories.

    Anyway- have a guid night.

  196. Christian Schmidt says:

    I think you miss the key points that the English NHS is in crisis despite relatively more funding than the Scottish NHS because of the Con-Lib NHS Act which means that much of the money is wasted by having to buy-in services that could be easier produced directly and other inefficiencies.

    The Scottish NHS is not in a financial crisis like the English NHS despite relatively less funding because of relative better decisions by the Scottish Government, esp. (since these things take a few year to work through the system), the previous Health Minister, one N. Sturgeon…

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