We’ve had plenty to say already this week about the amendment that will be debated at Holyrood this afternoon. So instead we’re going to present you today with the case for each side, as made by two Scottish women on Twitter in the last few hours, and let you decide for yourselves whose argument is the more compelling.
First up, in favour of the amendment, is Scotsman writer Gina Davidson.
“If an example was needed about how much sex and gender have been conflated in law and public policy it’s the debate around Johann Lamont’s amendment to the Forensic Services Medical Bill.
The shift to gender (gender pay gap/gender based violence etc) seems to have occurred because we as a society have felt more comfortable with the g word because sex is about sexual intercourse rather than a biological class of people.
However gender is not specified in law, unlike sex, and depending on who you talk to, there are umpteen genders as it’s about a performative identity rather than a biological certainty. How then if you are a rape victim can you ask for a medical examiner of a specific gender?
You can’t. You can, however, ask for a medical examiner of the same sex as you. Putting this clarity in the Bill for traumatised people seems a no brainer. And has the added advantage of shining a light on the lack of female examiners and thereby forcing a response to that.
Without that NHS trusts don’t have to address the issue. If gender is used and as self ID has become accepted – ahead of law – especially in the NHS, then hypothetically a woman who has been raped could be examined by a person who says their gender is “woman” but their sex is not.
Adding to the trauma. Or ensuring the victim does not take advantage of the new vital law this Bill introduces, or could even see them accused of transphobia. Of course there are possibly no trans forensic medical examiners right now, but who knows in the future?
There is also no need to use gender in this Bill rather than sex just because it has been used in another Bill (see similar discussions on this kind of thing re consolidating older law in [the] new Hate Crime Bill) that is not a good enough reason.
We keep being told that lived experience is key in drafting public policy – women rape survivors have been clear having a female examiner is paramount. Legislate for sex and it forces the NHS (and unis) to ensure that the request of traumatised women can eventually be met.
This is my opinion as a woman who has managed to reach a grand old age without being sexually assaulted. My view is therefore not as important as the women who have. And they have been clear. MSPs faced with the debate on the Bill today should think of them.”
And now the case against the amendment, from SNP councillor Mhairi Hunter:
Nobody is claiming this amendment will instantly solve the problem of an inadequate number of female examiners. But as Davidson explains, because sex is a protected characteristic in law and gender isn’t, it would provide a real and practical mechanism to help drive an increase, AND it would serve to reassure frightened victims who are trying to decide whether to go for the examination or not that their request for a female examiner would not be misinterpreted to include men.
(At which point, if they raised an objection they’d have legitimate reason to fear being prosecuted for a hate crime.)
That second part – avoiding victims being discouraged from seeking the examination at all – seems like a good enough reason on its own to us. But worryingly, Cllr Hunter appears to be a flat-out reality denialist.
Because we KNOW, for an ABSOLUTE AND UNCONTESTED FACT, that what she says there is a lie. Right this minute there’s a man in charge of a rape crisis centre in Scotland, who has ready and unrestricted regular access to rape survivors, because he concealed his sex to get the position – the precise thing Hunter says can’t happen, even though she’s entirely aware of the man in question’s existence because he just stood for election in her own party a month ago.
Indeed, she admires his “courage”.
(This picture is Wadhwa’s self-image of “kindness”, btw.)
So choose who to believe and who to trust, readers. Decide for yourselves whether the change proposed by Johann Lamont is “meaningless”. And then make your judgement about how your MSPs vote on it this afternoon and their motivations for doing so.
We know what we think.
I don’t understand how a woman not much younger than me can be so blinded and captured by this ideology. Saying that, if Mhairi Hunter told me today was Thursday, I’d have to check a calendar. She trips over her own lies.
Does NS use Hunter as her mouthpiece?
Is Hunter parroting her lines as agreed by the executive?
Will there be any repercussions for MSPs voting against their leader?
Is there such a thing as a rape crisis centre for men?
If so I’ll venture an opinion.
If not then I believe women should be the deciders in this instance.
“Is there such a thing as a rape crisis centre for men?”
Not a dedicated one that I’m aware of. Men do get raped and are entitled to be seen at rape crisis centres, and should also have the right to choose the sex of anyone who examines them.
Surely this should be a ‘conscience’ vote and MSP’s are not whipped to vote on Party lines.
They are there to represent their electorate and the vast majority will see this amendment as either common sense if accepted or a move to ‘circumvent’ further legislation if rejected.
Blocked Mhairi Hunter last year when she was calling female members bitches & far worse. We were supposed to have been silenced a long time ago but no one was listening to the party. We weren’t listening then just as SNP aren’t listening now.
Class action anyone or other suggestions??????
There is no controversial subject that the intervention of Mhairi Hunter can’t make worse & that is doubly true for anything to do with sex &/or gender. This issue is one where her frequent, ill thought through contributions both incense & confuse. She is like a mini version of Trump in that the world would be a very much better place if she would just stop tweeting.
“We could use this word or that word, there’s no difference.”
“OK, let’s use this word.”
“No we can’t use that word. We have to use the other word.”
What’s interesting and quite scary is that apparently a lot of people don’t see that position as weird and totalitarian.
I can’t believe the amount of time I wasted in defending Mhairi Hunter on social media.
I took her as reasonable for a very long time.
Then along came GRA and she showed herself to be an authoritarian, hectoring know it all who treats SNP members and especially female members, like errant kids.
Arrogance flows from her like water from a tap.
Incredibly it appears this is serious.
https://twitter.com/daveylittle/status/1336801387565490177
If this Wadhwa come from India in 2002, as he says, how did he aquire the American,(I would say) accent.
I think it might have been one of you embedded links, Stuart, that I heard him speak.
In fact, no hint of India, I watch CNN a lot, lots of Indian-born doctors speaking on it, and you can hear the intonation.
Him, well in the couple of minutes speech, nada.
Oops Jenny Marra right between the eyes
Will the first minister intervene in the case of a Glasgow clinic administering puberty blocking drugs given to children as young as eight, this is after the English high court ruling against their use until its proven that they have the mental capacity to understand the far reaching consequences
The Reply by the First Minister
totally body swerved the question and avoided any intervention on legal or a moral basis
I could be wrong and if I am perhaps someone will point it out , I view this non answer as being a total support of a Trans point of view , she is actually defending this because of pressure from these groups and ignoring the English courts decision,
@ Lollysmum: I’ll support a crowdfunder for such a case. And any case for clearing out rottenness – I can’t understand Mhairi Hunter’s attitude at all but it looks as if she is not alone in the party.
What’s wrong with saying that all, (be it man, woman, trans so whoever) rape victims can have the examiner of their choice, as in “I really don’t like the look of him/her/other, can I have another please?”
Dam I used the “r” word.
I’ll get the hang of it one day, sorry
All SNP MSPs need to be named and shamed who vote against the JL amendment.
As Gina Davidson says, women need to be safe in the knowledge that they can ask for an examination from a doctor that is the same sex as them – gender does not give them that unequivocal assurance.
Mhairi Hunter IMO is completely unhinged in her constant search for McWoke ‘glitter’ points. She, and the other NS acolytes are handmaidens pure and simple.
For those that are not clued in to the ‘mission’ creep of TRAs into women’s spaces this is a good example – a transwoman who has infliltrated an online breastfeeding group…disturbing doesn’t even come close, this guy is simply getting his rocks off!
There will simply be no spaces in the real world or online that is off-limits for these people.
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/princess-mom
Hope the link can be opened. If not I urge you to subscribe and follow the Glinner Update. He might be twitter banned but he’s still out there fighting for women’s rights just as Stu is. Glinner, Stu and others need all of our support – us women need male supporters in this fight. And make no mistake it is a fight!!!!
As for the SNP – they are dead to me.
I have an amendment:
All board members of each NHS Trust that fails to ensure that an adequate number of female examiners are available, as determined on Jan 1st 2021, within six months of this amendment becoming law, will be subject to a term of imprisonment of no less than one year for each unfilled position.
It’s almost 2021 and this is still an issue. Why, oh, why is this level of gross incompetence tolerated in a supposedly first world country.
Since it’s obviously silly when this subject is so topical, I’ve disabled the comment filter on the word “rape”. It’ll be reinstated if abused.
The guidance given to the health workers and rape crisis centres are that the victim is to be seen and dealt with in a private setting with the interviewer. If inappropriate behaviour (accidental or otherwise) is going to happen, this set up maximises opportunity.
With regards Midral… in view of the contents of her social media – I am actually wondering if she/he has ANY qualifications in the field of professional counselling.
To paraphrase as I could not cut and paste, ‘Well I don’t see victims every day, in terms of self care I use a lot of avoidance. I see about 4 a week, but its important to keep it fun’
Phrases like the above should be ringing very loud alarm bells.
Most people dealing with trauma victims – of all types, will tell you it is exhausting, that often the trauma that has brought them to you, is the straw that broke the camels back and that there are huge underlying issues, and most importantly – that each case has to be dealt with on its own merits.
All the people I know within these fields of expertise will talk, as number one priority, about the stress and strain caused by lack of resources – particularly re overwhelming work loads. And each and every one of them would love to have the chance at ‘avoidance’ when it all gets too much, but have no such employment luxury.
There seems to have been built up, within the last decade or so, a fashion, for someone who has lived through trauma of some description or another – to be ‘an expert in recovery’. The fact that they have survived, deemed qualification enough.
One example being in the field of drug and alcohol addiction. On the one hand I am delighted that as individuals they have found a route to recovery, on the the other, a trained therapist – without all the baggage – might be in a more balanced place to recommend a variety of methods to individuals.
I suspect insisting of bonafide qualifications in this type of field would be an anathema for the wokists.
@Alison 1.10 Agreed, but those that count appear to believe her tweets reveal great wisdom.
Re: Lobotomy Hunter. How does going from working on a market stall, one of her previous provocations, make you an expert on contentious subjects you had probably never heard of until middle age, have mo experience in, and no stake in? This woman disgusts me, a real fool. Was she always SNP, or is she an old Labour party-jumper? She seems the type to me, but I could be wrong. A real canker on Scotland, her and her decorticated cultist ilk.
I’m no fan of the Scotsman newspaper but I agree with Gina Davidson on this.
“Is there such a thing as a rape crisis centre for men?”
There is. Men can access the Edinburgh rape and sexual abuse centre; it used to be at the end of London Road but moved to Claremont Crescent a couple of years ago. There isn’t a men-only one that I know of.
I can assure that next year I will be printing off sheets explaining which of the MSPs for my area voted in this today, making it very clear, especially to the (women) oops, in my constituency which MSPs voted or abstained to allow this to go through without being ammended to J Bailie’s proposal.
I have no problem printing and distributing thousands of these.
Take note, are you willing to take the chance with you cushey jobs?
I never threaten I just deliver.
lollysmum @ 1.10pm –
I’d also support and throw money into a class action. This shit has got to stop. But most importantly this Trans rights – ‘transwomen are women’ nonsense needs to get out into the general public.
They need to define what human rights they currently don’t have – we know it’s none! They want validation as biological women pure and simple – not gonna happen.
We need to define the scientific basis of biological women – jeez I can’t believe I’m actually having to say that!!!!
And our biological status needs to be enshrined in law (which I believe it currently is, but is now being mashed up into ‘genderisation’. Women’s biological sex class needs to be re-affirmed in all laws that affect biological women).
As for trans people – fight for your own trans spaces do not infiltrate biological women’s spaces, sports, toilets, change rooms, refuges, prisons etc.
In all this shitstorm I really feel for transsexuals who want no part of the fetishists, cross dressers, AGPs who are behind this TRA / MRA movement.
If any Msps happen to read this post before this afternoons debate and before they cast their vote at decision time .
Can i just say to you “ the Msps, “ Do not come looking for our votes and our support in May 2021 .
Signed on behalf of the * WOMEN * of Scotland .
https://forwomen.scot/10/12/2020/dear-msps-from-survivors/?fbclid=IwAR11NsX4W045BNLC7nc18a5uEvI3tfbHIAKy1Zfx5FRlGXPZgKiYwL_3wR4
@Stuart MacKay
The problem with your proposal is that it is not possible to force people do medical jobs. Being a forensic examiner requires you to work unsocial hours. People tend to get raped at inconvenient times you see.
The role also involves work on victims of violence and attending deaths CSI style, unpleasant, traumatic and again work at unsocial hours. Which often bear hardest on women especially if they have children.
Even if a woman Dr has a very undrstanding and supportive partner many women who do such jobs have to battle feelings of inadequacy and guilt at missing things due to work.
Thus the roles are firstly only attractive to a small subset of medics and secondly particularly hard for women to do due to the inconvenient fact of the maternal instinct.
Why you think gaoling board members to be the solution to this problem is beyond me. As is any idea about how doing so would solve the problem of firslty there not being enough forensic medics of any sex and secondly of natal women.
Let us hope common sense___( and concerns about future elections) prevail.
@MaggieC
Signed on behalf of the * WOMEN * of Scotland .d and a lot of men.
Gina Davidson represents the main stream Scottish perspective on this issue. It shouldn’t be a struggle for the SNP to come to a common sense solution. The amendment proposed by J Lamont is reasonable. In a properly functioning Parliament this shouldn’t be a contentious debate. The dilution of women’s rights will have to be answered on the doorstep and at the ballot box. The SNP take their support for granted. Legal rights for women are an inalienable human right.
Ok I admit it I am no Inspector Clouseau but
Over the last while I have come to the view about our First Minister and all is not as it seems ,
My first impression was of someone pressing for Independence Day in day out and that was kinda dashed the longer her inaction continued ,
Then this gender issue and the direction she is attempting to push us , not coaxing but pushing , and pushing against nature and the views of most normal people , I think she has been taken hostage by this Trans Cult and their methods is at odds with the majority and if they knew about what’s happening they might well be very very uncomfortable and won’t sit well with the majority of the public ,
The fact that all moves have to be done in secret makes it more unpalatable and really suspicious , my advice would be drop the whole thing because she is on a hiding to nothing people won’t be pushed that far against their wishes and there could well be a nasty backlash and unintended consequences if she doesn’t
Daisy Walker @ 1.57
That comment from Mirdrul of ‘it’s important to keep it fun’ made my hair stand on end!!!!!!!
There is absolutely no situation for serious sexual trauma (for females or males) that can ever be described at the workplace as ‘keeping it fun’. I fear for any woman going into Rape Crisis Scotland services if that is the attitude.
What these women need is medical care, psychological support and counselling, long-term therapy and peer women who understand their lived experience – not keeping it fun FFS!!!!
Mirdrul and ‘keeping it fun’ clearly does not understand the lived experience of biological women – I suggest Mirdrul is not qualified nor fit for that job. RAPE CRISIS SCOTLAND GET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER!!!!!
What depresses me is that all the votes for sanity today will likely come from unionist MSPs. And after maybe generating a few days worth of headlines everyone’s attention switches to the next policy discussion. That is why we so desperately need a culture change in the indy movement.
It is our own house we so urgently need to get in order. In the transgender debate, it is pro-indy MSPs that are the biggest obstacle, not unionists. What a sobering thought.
@Muscleguy
Having worked in America,many nurses have been trained to do examinations of women. Perfectly legal and also doable.
This is because nearly 50% of women experiencing rape suffer clear physical trauma around the genital area and often need treatment anyway.
It would simply mean training .
Agreed MaggieC
They have been warned our voters are not their property
I hope they are paying close attention
https://caltonjock.com/2020/12/02/salmond-affair-update-peter-murrell-exposed-as-an-inarticulate-numnut-who-failed-to-stick-to-the-script/
Afternote: Following his acquittal of all charges Alex Salmond claimed that there had been an internally led SNP conspiracy against him. These messages from the Chief Executive Officer of the Party give credence to the claims.
Murrell also claimed to know nothing of the content of discussions at two meetings between Sturgeon and Alex Salmond about the alleged assaults despite them being held in his home in Glasgow. He insisted Sturgeon had told him she could not discuss the details of the meetings but they were held to discuss SNP business and as such he had every right to know what was going on. His account does not ring true.
In recent months there has been growing unrest within the Party about the conduct of the small cliche at its head who have been actively changing internal rules to prevent Sturgeon’s critics from being selected ahead of the 2021 Scottish General Election. But the behavior backfired when elections to the NEC returned a majority of new officers who are not in support of the Sturgeon Murrell agenda. It appears that Peter Murrel will be subjected to a vote of no confidence very soon.
May: Lloyd promoted by Sturgeon from Band 3 – with a maximum salary of £84,000 – up two levels to Band 4, increasing her salary by 25%, from £83,000 to £104,000 a staggering £21,000 increase. A reward for blind loyalty?
What are the new NEC doing about this ?
You were voted in to stop this. So far nada.
You can bet if the old wokeratti NEC had remained they would be suspending left ,right and centre.
Do something. Stand up to the wokeratti.
The current superintendence by the SNP seems determined to completely fuck up everything about Scotland that makes [or made] it a great wee country.
If it is correct that the First Minister [and her coven] are quietly ignoring the determination of the supreme court then she has gone from being seen as “misguided” semi-intelectual to one foul individual.
One wonders WHO or WHAT is pulling her strings?
I have not read anywhere a comparison between the GRA Reform at Westminster, which has recently been abandoned I think,and the Holyrood one? I wonder if this row has been caused by a childish attempt to be the Wokiest parliament in the UK. And why was the WM one abandoned?
Three things:
-First, who the hell is Mhairi Hunter? How does this mid-ranking Glasgow councillor have so much bloody influence?
-Second, if she’s been around calling anyone who disagrees with her rude names, maybe it’s high time she was expelled from the SNP by the new NEC.
-Third, fuck these people and their sadism. History will vindicate those who stood up to them.
If I am not mistaken Mhairi Hunter is nicola sturgeon’s election agent
The trans lobby and its claims need to be deconstructed through research, argument and the law. There is no other way that women are going to win this one unless they mobilise now.
What many don’t get is that trans women must BE women in order fo this ideology to succeed, by invading female spaces, and that means that the definition of what a woman is must change. Therein lies the rub. They know perfectly well that they are not women. They WANT to be women, many of them, but certainly not all, and we should remember that, because they want what women have as well as that which they have as men. That is not to say that some men do want to be women, but wanting to be something does not confer the right to take someone else’s natal identity and sense of self away from them. There can be no resolution to this dilemma except to create trans spaces.
The trans lobby and its gullible and deluded supporters – and I make no apology for saying that because they are both, and because they cannot see that they this has nothing to do with equality, but the opposite – are already trying to undermine existing laws in order to push this stuff through. In the past, trans women probably used female toilets and other spaces with little comment because they were few and made no song-and-dance about it, and because almost all would have been fully-transitioned physically. All that has changed, with men demanding access to women’s spaces while refusing to actually transition at all. In other words, they have a feeling in their head that they are women, having lived most of their lives as men, and want women to remove themselves from their own spaces and rights.
Firstly, the government has a duty of care to all and that cannot be compromised so as not to hurt the sensibilities of a minority. If that duty of care is altered in any way, it cannot be on the word of someone who has no definitive proof that he should be considered. This is a denial of science, of biology. It requires some kind of tangible proof, truth and reality. All of these are missing, but, still, we are asked to accept no tangible proof, no provable truth and a delusion in place of reality. When, on God’s green acre, was that acceptable as the basis of law? The very least we need is ‘on the balance of probabilities’. Can we say that a natal man claiming to BE a woman is a woman on the balance of probabilities? That a real woman with all a woman’s lived experience sits dormant in his brain for years and suddenly decides the time is right to appear? Nah. So, you discover that you are the opposite sex at an ever tenderer age. Not until a legal case has been brought before the courts to prove such a claim, will this be settled – and, perhaps not even then.
Muscleguy
It’s all about incentives.
Start offering pay that makes the position attractive. Select medical staff and train them specifically for the job and pay them the wage that keeps them there. It’s an unusual skill and finding the right person is difficult, so compensate them accordingly. The benefits are enormous and it sends a strong signal that the role and the crime is taken seriously.
As for the board members, jail time is all about focusing minds so the problem gets fixed and in double-quick time. If jail time is too strong, take the tie the issue to pay and bonuses.
That a system have have such glaring failings, that women have been campaigning against for decades, is unacceptable in any society that claims to be offering equality. It’s time that was changed and if some heads need to be banged together then so be it. They’ve had long enough to fix it. It’s not some fringe issue. It’s an embarrassment and people should be ashamed the issue exists at all.
O/T. On a lighter note. Tory horror puppet ringers. This is hilarious. And uncanny.
https://mobile.twitter.com/weehalfpintt/status/1336990499467563010
I can’t wait to see how this plays out – a pangender person gets raped and asks for a pangender examiner. This would be supported under this law. There are none, the person is given someone else. The person sues…Hopefully this will never happen. But the fact that this bill sets the stage for that is mind-boggling. We’ve seen worse things happen lately. If the lack of women examiners plays a role in leaving the word ‘gender’ in as opposed to ‘sex’, the lack of examiners of the multitude of genders out there really opens a BIG can of worms.
Mhairi Hunter and others of the woke sisterhood are proof that women can be misogynists – and bullies. Many women can testify that their attitudes are the dark side of what many see as the natural propensity of females to socialise and form social groups.
These groups can be as daunting as male groups and display the same human social mechanisms of domineering hierarchies which do not tolerate any dissent from group think. In other words, they are human beings. Sorry to state something so obvious but people are often so busy characterising the sexes as being inherently different that they do not seem to observe the many similarities.
Anyone who has observed the behaviour of girls in girls’ schools can testify that bullying goes on in exclusively female environments and though perhaps less violent than that of males can be just as destructive and intense.
I hope I shouldn’t have to say that just like men, women can form supportive and emotionally sustaining group friendships, but there is a tendency to gloss over the times and situations in which, due to less benign social dynamics these bullying relationships can develop while still the illusion is created that women are just ‘nicer’ than men.
These women can easily turn on other women as we can see with the woke sorority and are perfectly capable of taking their lead from men. There is a myth of female solidarity but it does not often exist despite men complaining of ‘man-haters’. Given the right circumstances women are more likely to turn on other women. Why? For the simple reason that women are seen as being the weaker target.
Every new generation of female graduates calling themselves feminists will find reason to contend with previous generations of feminists and completely overturn former concepts of feminism. So we get young feminists today loudly proclaiming their support for pornography and call prostitution ‘sex work’.
Of course, as we can see from the twitter war, these young feminists are staunch and loud supporters of self-ID and attack what are usually older feminists who argue against GRA legislation and its many ramifications. No solidarity with women there.
Remember Mhairi Black sneering at women who had experienced sexual assault?
Muscleguy says:
10 December, 2020 at 2:18 pm
@Stuart MacKay
The problem with your proposal is that it is not possible to force people do medical jobs. Being a forensic examiner requires you to work unsocial hours. People tend to get raped at inconvenient times you see.
The role also involves work on victims of violence and attending deaths CSI style, unpleasant, traumatic and again work at unsocial hours. Which often bear hardest on women especially if they have children.’
I’m very sorry Muscleguy – I have no doubt that you mean well with the above. But it is long out of date.
The first weeks/months of a doctors training begin with cutting open a dead body. Head to toe.
The injuries sustained for most rape victims – while deeply emotionally traumatic, rarely involve ‘gruesome’ type injuries to the flesh and bones.
Quite often, and one of the reasons rape has often been such a difficult crime to prove, is the lack of apparent physical injury.
The arms are held trapped, but not broken, and seldom bound, the legs are prized apart by the assailants own legs, clothing is often ripped, sometimes there is evidence of bruising on inner legs, or hand prints on arms, neck, or legs – but unlike TV drama, it is often quick, and it is often done by superior body strength and weight, as apposed to violent bodily assault and injury to facilitate the rape itself.
Most medical forensic exams consist of visual recording of bruising, minor grazing, collection of hair combings, swabs from various areas on and in the body. It is a methodical, systematic, evidence gathering process. But for the medical professionals carrying it out it would be very rare circumstances whereby it could be described as ‘unpleasant/traumatic’. By contrast the re-setting of a particularly badly broken wrist would be far more medically challenging.
While the complaint of rape will very likely happen at an unsocial hour – 99 times out of 100 it will be a female Police officer appointed as SOLO (Sexual Offence Liaison Officer) to note the initial statement of complaint and accompany the victim through the medical exam. You think they don’t have children, or at too frail to work anti social hours?
Depending on extent of injuries a trip to A and E in the first instance may well take place – no shortage of female Nurses and Doctors there. You think the nature of their work is so challenging and their maternal instincts so strong that they can’t do it?
A friend is a GP, back in the day when starting out, she wanted to specialise in the field of Gynaecology. The field was (and may very well still be) completely dominated by Males. Go figure. She did not feel welcome to apply.
Owning women’s sexual freedom, reproduction, sexual health, sexual choices, sexual morality, and sexual safety – including access to Police investigations – has, in every single human culture, always been dominated and controlled by men.
And, they have always pulled out the same old excuses as the ones you have for the lack of female staff allowed within. Child care issues, anti social hours, too frail, physically and emotionally….
Also, with that history in mind, anyone who doesn’t think that some males transgendering to female will absolutely want access to vulnerable woman, and participate in this gatekeeping/ownership is underestimating the way the condition manifests itself significantly.
Is there any chance of the Party I was once a member of and a branch organizer in being reborn? You know the Party that once believed in Scots Indy. The Party that was once on the side of ordinary working people and average and poor people.
Silly question I suppose. My parents generation will be birlin in their graves at what has happened to the SNP.
It is my understanding that nurse practitioners will also be trained to make these examinations.
o/t
Tories pushing for more access to Postal Voting eh
I wonder why they are also why are they pushing for Polling to be carried out over more than one day,
Given they are likely to be on the receiving end of a head butt it doesn’t make sense other than to give them more fiddling Time , who knows
But I bet they along with the security services have Plans in place
@Iain More
Ditto my late mum wouldn’t recognise this party. Decades of her service has come to nought.
Daisy Walker 1:57 pm
Thank you for that thoughtful contribution, which made me think
@Bob Mack
I’m well aware of that. I have a sister who is a nurse pracitioner in adolescent sexual health who handles adolescents who have been sexual abused/raped including collecting forensic evidence.
I was responding to what he claimed.
Suitably trained nurses are indeed a solution. I don’t know enough about what might inhibit such positions here. Maybe legal in terms of who can do such work. Not all nurses will have what it takes of course. My older sister and I both have degrees, our nursing sister is no less intelligent but was dead set for being a nurse like our mother. She complained about the low level of much of the education and moved to better inform herself. That she ended up as a high powered nurse practiioner is of no surprise to me.
She has worked in the Pacific Islands on teaching children to keep themselves safe and what that means. She does talks in schools in NZ on that subject as well.
The more you hear about people like Mhairi Hunter and her ilk the more you despair how perverted the SNP has become because of people like this.
Where did they come from, how did they come to infest our party, and how quickly can we get rid of them. They are poison in every way.
Let us hope that today’s vote sends a message. Change is needed and needed now. Sturgeon and the whole demented, divisive and dangerous clique time needs to come to an end sooner, rather than later.
The NEC rout was just the start. There is hope. Ordinary people have spoken and they will prevail.
If MH had any appreciation of the cognitive foundations of language and law, the philosophy of information, bioethics, embodiment, or supporting the social position of natal women, she would not be encouraging men’s colonisation of the legal domain of womanhood. She might also be more able to defend Scotland’s constitutional identity. So here’s a look at “The creative mind: cognition, society and culture”.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-017-0024-1
Jamie Greene msp has emailed his support for JL amendment.
Thumbs up.
We are dealing with a fundamentalist ideology here. No reasoning can persuade otherwise. The individuals that the believers in the SNP have chosen as their icons have convinced people like Mhairi Hunter of the most bizarre ‘truths’.
This idea that they are all victims when fact many of us would have had no idea what and who they were before all this and would have had a live and let live attitude while upholding their rights to equality under the law free from discrimination. You don’t change attitudes by taking away the rights of women who are already discriminated against.
By their bogus victimhood and emotional and intellectual dishonesty these mostly male TRAs have made themselves open to scrutiny. They have made many people’s lives utterly miserable with their demands which encroach on women and girls lives disproportionately. Yet they portray themselves as brave and courageous when called out.
Some of the women’s stories in response to #sexnotgender are heartbreaking – they are having to relive serious sexual assaults they buried years ago and the appalling treatment thereafter because of these immature and selfish men who are enabled by the likes of Hunter. She is becoming more and more detached from what was the SNP core voter as the days go by.
Well the good news is that anyone who votes against the amendment has ‘self-identified’ themselves as a wank on the goodguy/wank list. That will save a bit of time at least.
Ok moderation again. Maybe time to quit.
@ Daisy Walker 3.22pm
Apropos your comment about Gynaecology it reminded me of reading an article about 10/12 years ago by a female doctor remarking on exactly that – the over subscription of male doctors to that specialism. Some specialisms are more popular with young doctors aiming to become consultants than others.
Brain surgery and thoracic surgery were, as you might expect, up there as the glamour specialisms compared to geriatric medicine, rather under subscribed. But up there too, near the top, was gynaecology. Obviously, so many eager young doctors wishing to specialise in that discipline would make it very competitive.
However, she made the point that despite the fact that more women than men were actually graduating as doctors due to making admission to medical degrees courses a level playing field – there used to be a quota system operating against women – the specialism of gynaecology was still dominated by men who comprised the majority of consultancies. Go figure.
Again that was from some years ago, things might have changed, but given how long it takes to make your way to become a consultant, perhaps not that much, given the time frame.
Interestingly, in some Islamic countries, gynaecology/obstetrics is almost exclusively female. Again, however, that is the influence of a male-dominated society.
I have no time for Cllr Hunter. She called AUOB marchers ‘trash’. Her opinions and attitudes are appalling.
I was disgusted with the FM’s response to Jenny Marra this afternoon. She refused to look the evidence in the eye and slid out of answering the question in a very sleekit and cowardly way.
How has the SNP become home to people who will not stand up for those who have been raped and for children who need protection – an eleven year old does not have the life experience to decide to take life altering medication.
My SNP vote is vanishing over the horizon, much as it grieves me to say it.
Nally Anders says:
10 December, 2020 at 4:32 pm
Jamie Greene msp has emailed his support for JL amendment.
Thumbs up.
Just received the Email from Jamie Green saying he will support the ammendment. Seems the Tories have a more sense of decency than the SNP.
O/T Update on Peoples Action on Section 30
Good Afternoon Folks,
Just a quick email to let everyone know that everything is on track. You’ve not heard from me in a while because there is not much to really update you on.
We’re still on track for the hearing as scheduled on the 21st and 22nd of January 2021.
The last number of weeks have been about drafting our (and reading their) written arguments. There’s nothing really noteworthy in the arguments of the opposition, in that they are still holding to the hogwash that the people have no right to ask reasonable questions of the court with regards to the law, which is just unsustainable and totally antithetical to what constitutes a democracy. They also still continue to fail to discuss the substantive issue about section 30 (because let’s face it, there’s no real argument to advance on trying to deprive the electorate of the fundamental right to enable the right to vote on a matter of constitutional significance), relying solely on their technical arguments that the general public should just go away and not bother them.
Over the next few weeks, it will be about refining those written arguments ahead of the 2 day hearing in January for the case. Then we have Christmas and new year.
I just wanted to reach out and let you know in case you thought I had forgotten about you all.
Hoping that you are all safe and well.
Sincerely
Martin Keatings
Honestly, what on earth are these idiots in the SNP thinking? Just use the wqord sex, and the law is then clear. The word ‘gender’ is ambiguous, and can, as REV STU shows be a means for men to hide their sex, when applying for female only positions.
Honestly, I am sick of this effing stupidity by the SNP. This has nothing to do with so-called ‘trans’ rights, and an awful lot to do with following sheep spouting science denying nonsense.
Just for clarity (and the mad people in the SNP, A woman is an adult human female. FACT.
For goodness sake stop this ‘gender’ nonsense.
Oh, and just for an other perspective, their are also some medical procedures and examinations which most men would NEVER feel comfortable for a woman to perform – whether they ‘think or imagine’ they are a ‘man’ or not.
It is frankly outrageous that anybody even for one second thinks this ‘gender’ p*sh makes any sense. This will backfire come the next election. The SNP will come to deeply regret adopting this loony ‘gender’ stuff.
The only thing spreading faster than this virus is the woke revolution its infecting everything now Birmingham city council thinks it a good idea to now name streets as one example “Diversity avenue” amongst other barmy names its going down really well with the locals , take note Nicola ” dont even try it dear “
Johann Lamont just got to her feet:
https://www.scottishparliament.tv/
Willie at 422pm,
These people currently destrpying the SNP come from the Labour party. They are the very same leeches that destroyed that party. As political careerists (like mmhairi Hunter), they just jump on the next bandwagon. So far as I can see, she couldn’t give a damn about independence. It’s all about their own ideologies and dogma.
Johann Lamont speaking now in parliament to move her amendment
It’s a very long time since I studied cognitive linguistics and legal theory, so I’m not the one to be teaching “natural language law”. Which is an approach to law that helps broaden access to justice and supports natural rights. Anyhoo, here’s a look at “Natural Language Processing and Machine Learning for Law and Policy Texts”.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3438276
“Almost all law is expressed in natural language; therefore, natural language processing (NLP) is a key component of understanding and predicting law at scale. NLP converts unstructured text into a formal representation that computers can understand and analyze.
The intersection of NLP and law is poised for innovation because there are (i.) a growing number of repositories of digitized machine-readable legal text data, (ii.) advances in NLP methods driven by algorithmic and hardware improvements, and (iii.) the potential to improve the effectiveness of legal services due to inefficiencies in its current practice.
NLP is a large field and like many research areas related to computer science, it is rapidly evolving. Within NLP, this paper focuses primarily on statistical machine learning techniques because they demonstrate significant promise for advancing text informatics systems and will likely be relevant in the foreseeable future.
First, we provide a brief overview of the different types of legal texts and the different types of machine learning methods to process those texts. We introduce the core idea of representing words and documents as numbers. Then we describe NLP tools for leveraging legal text data to accomplish tasks.
Along the way, we define important NLP terms in italics and offer examples to illustrate the utility of these tools. We describe methods for automatically summarizing content (sentiment analyses, text summaries, topic models, extracting attributes and relations, document relevance scoring), predicting outcomes, and answering questions.”
Johann spoke well. Could hear the emotion in her voice.
Sandra White SNP speaking in support of Lamont amendment
That’s the first time I’ve listened to J. Lamont speak in parliament and not laughed. Well done Ms Lamont.
It also looks like this will be the first time I’ve agreed with the Scottish Tories!
Looks like Adam Price has swallowed the Kool Aid too. So disappointed. I used to have such a high opinion of him. Mind you, I could say the same about Nicola. Are we about to see Plaid Cymru implode as well, just as its star is rising?
https://twitter.com/Adamprice/status/1336718715497410562
-Silver Darling-
This whole thing is a religion. That’s not a trite remark, it has the hallmarks of a religion. They have their heresies, their holidays (Trans Day of Rememberance), and like an evangelist beginning with “Have you heard the Good News”, they have their routine talking points.
Like all religions, it’s central function is men controlling women’s sexuality.
Oh Rev, I love your website, love your articles but please change the record, this is getting boring now. It’s such a side or niche issue, that 99% of the public don’t really care about. Let’s focus on something that’s actually important to everyone, winning indy. At the end of the day, transwomen are women.
@C Griffiths,
Was your mum a transwoman? Gender and sex are 2 different things. Does that help?
Grouser Agreed
Jenny Marra gave her the opportunity to answer a specific question ,
With reference to the English high court judgement that stopped dead in its tracks the administering of Puberty Blocking Drug to under age children because it has been found these children don’t have the capacity to make any informed choice and don’t understand the consequences.
The First Minister failed to address the question and chose to avoid the request by Jenny Marra to intervene and stop a Glasgow Clinic that is still administering this Drug, she asked for a intervention to cease the practice immediately the First Minister ignored the question completely .
JGedd: you are, of course, quite correct in that women can often be far more damning of their own sex than men. In rape trials, for example, if the jury has more women on it, the chances are that the alleged perpetrator will walk. That is a proven fact. Girls can be horrifically cruel to each other, too. at school. Quite why women like Ms Hunter are so venomous towards other women eludes me, but a psychologist could probably supply an answer.
To a great extent, it is the supporters and disciples of the trans lobby who keep this particular train running, although human rights are also an issue. Trans human rights are well established, however, so why is all this stuff still being pushed? Society will pay the price of such an unproven ideology when reality finally dawns. In every other push for equality, the people who want the equality have done the pushing for themselves, and they have wanted the equality for themselves.
Never before, has any group pushed for its rights as something it is not, and never before have others pushed so hard for those who want the equality and never before has any group pushing for its rights already had them. That is what is so very different about trans equality: it already exists; it claims to be what it is not; and it sits back and expects others to do all the hard work in campaigning, and also in preparing all the groundwork for occupation when it is ready. In that sense, it is a kind of parasitical ideology. Women have done all the groundwork, many women support it and many women have fought for the human rights that it benefits from. The end result must be to push women out completely, and I don’t believe it is accidental at all, but a deliberate aim, so what is its purpose?
Why can’t it campaign for trans spaces, accept that men cannot be women and vice versa, and leave women’s spaces and rights alone? No one, ever, answers those questions. No one ever suggests that this is the compromise that would work – the only one that would work.
C Griffirhs @ 5.37 pm
You won’t be getting independence because WOMEN won’t be voting for any Msp of any party especially the Snp if they don’t support Johann Lamont’s amendment today .
Well done Johann Lamont.
Re Johann Lamont’s amendment
For- 113
Against- 9
Abstention -1
Johann Lamont’s aamendment passed. YEAH. 🙂
Bloody well done Johann Lamont. Hope shes very proud of herself, she’s spoken for the voiceless today.
Joanne Lamont’s amendment passed by over 100 votes to 9 – so it looks like MSPs have been listening.
@ Robert Louis at 5.15
M(h)airi Hunter is the daughter of Allison Hunter, who was apparently a well-known and long-standing SNP activist (who didn’t understand the vocative case in Q-Celtic languages).
So she’s not a Labour bandwagon-jumper. She is, however, NS’s office manager and possibly election agent. That may mean that her madder utterances are sanctioned from the very top.
Good! Now only have to check to see how Stuart McMillan SNP MSP for Inverclyde voted.
Well listen, over the years I have said many things about Johan Lamont, and most are not complimentary. BUT, today, she spoke from the heart, and for that she should be complimented.
The SNP need to stop this nonsense. Women I have heard from are sick and fed up of this gender p*sh. They don’t want to harm ‘trans’ people, they don’t want to take away rights, they just want WOMAN -only services and spaces.
Well done J Lamont and Stu for his support. The women of Scotland appreciate it. Speaking of course as a husband, father and grandfather to the love of my life..wimmin.
Joanna Lamont amendment moved by absolutely enormous majority.
The trans lobby have just been booted into orbit with a vote of over 100 to 9.
Crazycat,
It matters not, her priority is clearly not independence. If her nonsense comes from the top, then it only strengthens my view that Nicola Sturgeon needs to go – and hopefully ASAP (hopefully taking her husband with her).
C Griffiths – You wish!
I think Johann Lamont’s amendment vote clearly shows we have reached peak trans. Good.
Let’s start getting independence. A very good start would be expelling those who use the term “TERF”. NEC are you listening ?
Six words.
Thank god.
Oh dear Monica Lennon just stated a Trans Woman is a a woman
Away and bile yer heed yah bloody idiot
Thank Duck she’s in the Labour Party
A manufactured person can never become a woman it’s scientifically a total impossibility what are these people taking ?
These SNP MSPs better get their act together because the public will take action and they won’t bloody like it , anyone able to list who voted for what because people need to know
Great result.How do we find who voted.? What was Alex ColeHamilton wittering about?
C Griffiths says:
“10 December, 2020 at 5:37 pm
Oh Rev, I love your website, love your articles but please change the record, this is getting boring now. It’s such a side or niche issue, that 99% of the public don’t really care about. Let’s focus on something that’s actually important to everyone, winning indy. At the end of the day, transwomen are women.”
If you don’t like it, scroll on.
It’s not niche to the majority of women – ‘real’ women with vaginas, that is. It’s also important to many men and thank god we have them fighting for us and our right to safe spaces.
I care. I’m a woman and I would suggest that having our rights protected is incredibly important.
Transwomen are transwomen.
Thank God over 90% of MSP’s had the balls to kick this nonsense into touch.
Hope the others are honest enough in their election leaflets to say this was how they voted
and where their priorities lie?
Let’s call a spade a spade @Robert graham and @Grouser says.
It isn’t a Puberty Blocking Drug
It is the CHEMICAL CASTRATION of (mostly vulnerable) under age children.
And you are correct that this is primarily “because it has been found these children don’t have the capacity to make any informed choice”.
This ‘trans-women are women’ science denying nonsense is the thin end of the wedge as anyone who has joined the dots between the PIE (paedophile information exchange) and making MAP (minor attracted person) a ‘gender’ has already worked out.
Johann Lamont’s Amendment 28.
In favour :
Yes 119
No 9
I might be rusty but I do know what I’m talking about. So here’s a look at “Concept of Personhood”.
https://medicine.missouri.edu/centers-institutes-labs/health-ethics/faq/personhood
“The concept of personhood is widely involved in biomedical ethics discussions about abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia, etc., though it is not always discussed explicitly. It also has other philosophical and legal relevance.
Some thinkers use the term “person” in such a way that one is either a person or not, but the situation is not that simple. It will be useful to distinguish among different types, contexts, or meanings of personhood: moral, metaphysical, physical, and legal.”
@ Lollysmum 1.10pm I think a class action is a good idea and as a male (auld) I also would support it , BUT there is always a BUT , for it to be MORE effective it would be required to TARGET an individual , to take on the SG means that they have a bottomless pit of finance to see off any legal challenge and run down the complainers legal finances
How about taking Nicola Sturgeon to court as an individual and declaring that SHE in the position of FM and leader of the SG is FORCING illegal legislative change against the wishes of NATAL WOMEN in Scotland
In taking Sturgeon to court personally to answer these charges it would have NUMEROUS advantages
1 It would highlight PUBLICLY far and wide to the women of Scotland that Sturgeon is DETERMINED to undermine and devastate NATAL WOMEN in Scotlands safety and security
2 She would have to pay HER own legal fees, neither the SG or the SNP would be required or able to fund her , she could start a crowd fund but I don’t think many REAL women would contribute
3 It would EXPOSE her duplicity and FALSE claim of being a feminist , proving that by her actions her intention is to set back WOMEN’S rights by colluding with 0.01% of the population to rewrite and destroy the 2010 equality act
What amazing work by Johann Lamont. I’m going to email her to thank her for her work on this.
Interesting to see who was prepared to throw themselves under the bus on this – Mhairi Hunter, Alex Cole Hamilton etc.
Meanwhile, France’s Europe minister confirmed that Brexit means that, even after the end of the Covid-19 pandemic, UK citizens are expected to require a visa to remain within the Schengen travel area – covering most of the EU apart from Ireland – for more than 90 days in a 180-day period.
Clement Beaune said the matter was still being negotiated, but added: “For stays of more than three months, there may be visa applications, professional or other, and this is a point that is still under discussion.”
Great result. Well done, Johann Lamont. So relieved.
The nine against were???
Shiregirl @ 5.57
Well said …
So who were the 9 who voted against the Joanna Lamont amendment to the Government Bill – Sturgeon Shirley Anne Sommerville, a loon ball lib dem and maybe Andy Whiteman.
Sturgeon is on notice. This was a huge defeat for the Trans. Time is running out. She’s at the end of the road.
And tomorrow here may well be more bad news coming her way.
Famous15 at 5:55pm
Go to https://beta.parliment.scot and type in the name of the MSP that you are interested in into the search box. Then click on voting record. Might take a day or two for site to update with this vote.
One small step on the road to sanity. But an important one.
I see sense has prevailed, but does that derail the GRA amendments?
That’s two reasons to be cheerful in a couple of weeks. Jings.
Rev …. Can I just say Thank You to you too for writing the article the other day that highlighted that this vote was coming up,and that you encouraged your readers to act to influence it.
You did a good thing …
After 2014 I honestly didn’t know how I would forgive some of the Better Together No voters, and I also said we would gain our Indy ‘one bit of decency at a time’ because decency is the one thing we can chose to own and never relinquish.
Johanna Lammont just contributed to a better Scotland with an incredible, important bit of decency.
Don’t know about anyone else, but its given me a bit of hope, as has the voting numbers.
I do want the names of the 9 though.
The bandwagon jumpers in my twitter timeline, who were slagging off Johann L an hour ago, all appear to have logged off.
Mhairi Hunter has gone super quiet. Unlike her.
Excellent news. A crack in the trans edifice.
Well it shouldn’t be hard to work out who the 9 against were. 6 green msp’s(there a given) is it? + 3 others and one abstention.
@ Lizg: again we have a lot to thank the Rev for. It was here that Geoff Bush’s Members for Independence article was published – that led to the successful change in personnel of the NEC.
And before I forget to say so – well done to Joanna Lamont.
Not everyone, especially maybe some men, understands the trauma surrounding rape. Lamont’s speech was impassioned and so full of reason – and the whole parliament knew it!
Mibee safe to watch sky news again as the Burley has been hoofed for 6 months.
Maybe a wee job for her in US as Donald’s press correspondent?
Stu we women and supporters of women’s rights have so much to thank you for.
And Jo Lamont’s speech was a stormer.
Interesting too, that the govt voted for the amendment. Perhaps emailing displeasure to all our MSPs really got them scared and showed womens’ anger and power.
Hope the same goes for the GRA Self Id and the HCB too.
Marvellous result.
After the NEC results, and the English court ruling, this is the third example in recent weeks of these maniacs being stood up to and told where to get off.
Credit where it’s due to Johann Lamont. And fuck you to the nine who voted against.
I really admire those who have brought all this to light.
limey says:
10 December, 2020 at 6:17 pm
Mhairi Hunter has gone super quiet. Unlike her.
Lolz!
Now for FWS to get a positive result from the Judicial Review of the Gender Representation on Public Boards Law in January.
I’m confused.
How did this amendment even get to a vote when the SNP government didn’t appear to support it anyway?
@ Robert Louis at 5.51
I don’t disagree with you!
I was explicating, not excusing.
@crazycat 5:49
Dr Caroline Scott is Constituency Office Manager for Nicola Sturgeon
The tide may be turning but I don’t think women’s rights are safe in Scotland yet. Though none of our human rights are safe as we are bound under Westminster. Which is deaf to Scotland’s voice. So here’s a bit more legal semiotics, with a look at “Rethinking Hart: From Open Texture to Prototype Theory – Analytic Philosophy Meets Cognitive Linguistics”. Which helps explains legal categorisation. 😉
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11196-020-09722-9
“First, who the hell is Mhairi Hunter?”
She’s the daughter of the late, much respected, Allison Hunter, who I can’t believe would be anything other than appalled by this utter nonsense. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-23433666
“Sylvia says:
10 December, 2020 at 7:04 pm
@crazycat 5:49
Dr Caroline Scott is Constituency Office Manager for Nicola Sturgeon.”
Mhari Hunter “P/T Constituency Assistant to Nicola Sturgeon MSP
Board Member NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde Health Board”
Ref. https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/councillorsandcommittees/interests.asp?id=1302&name=Mhairi+Hunter
the coven spreads it’s
WINGS
far and wide..
“Ok moderation again. Maybe time to quit.”
You’re showing as 0 posts, Princess. Probably typed your email address wrong so WordPress thinks you’re a new person.
I don’t want to seem like a wet blanket, but a result like this is an enormous change of heart in a very short time for the SNP group at Holyrood. What are they plotting?
I have emailed Jo Lamont to thank her for her efforts today. Great outcome. I am still reeling from the fact that only 2 MSP’s acknowledged my emails asking them to support the amendment. TWO. Both Tories. SNP MSP’s appear to have gone underground. Best stay there the way I am feeling about the SNP now.
Skip_NC
What are they plotting.
There seems to be a real link between the GRA supporters and Wheesht for Indy crew within the SNP (my inner tin foil hat wonders if by this means – rewards will befall them at later dates).
Had they voted with their convictions today – they would have been clearly identified, thus paving the way for legitimate, alternative candidates in their areas.
As it stands just now, our only way of identifying them is if they have not signed the Woman’s Charter (against the GRA). Which is not 100% obviously.
My guess, is it was this, that was behind the capitulation today, in addition to not having enough votes to carry it.
Generally you do not expect someone in a counselling environment to be an empathy free imbecile. That said, I know of social workers who don’t give a flying fuck about poverty , nurses who couldn’t give a shit about patients and teachers whose desire to inspire the next generation is sadly missing. However, I would expect a rape crisis centre to be led by an adult not Davina Brent. I suspect the boxes of ethnicity and trans inclusiveness were ticked by Stoneywall council and they all feel proud of it till it’s no longer a thing.
You’re showing as 0 posts, Princess. Probably typed your email address wrong so WordPress thinks you’re a new person.
Ahh maybe… let’s see if it works.
Take a fuck to yourself prick.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-trans-debate-could-cost-this-cambridge-porter-his-job