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The wrong question

Posted on October 13, 2016 by

There was a rather comforting predictability about the headlines the Scottish media greeted the first day of the SNP conference in Glasgow with.


Unsurprisingly, the Express’ lead story was a piece of fabricated drivel based on alleged quotes from an unnamed source claiming that the Scottish Government would resign in order to force an election and win a mandate that it already has.

(The SNP’s manifesto this May, on which it won a third landslide election victory in a row, clearly reserved the right to call a second referendum should there be a serious material change in circumstances, explicitly citing the Brexit scenario as an example.)

The Daily Mail, meanwhile, puffed up a load of entirely fact-free press-release foaming from some Tory list MSP nobody’s ever heard of into “news”, in the process somehow managing to twist the economic consequences of the Brexit vote caused by his own party into a bewilderingly illogical attack on Scottish independence.

Both articles are essentially the sort of comedy pastiches of terrible journalism one might create as a cautionary example in a media studies degree course, so we’ll waste no more of your time on them. The Herald’s piece, though, is at least marginally more interesting.

It’s based on a poll conducted for the paper by BMG, which in fact found the exact opposite of the Herald’s strapline claim that “EU membership is not [a] political gamechanger for the SNP”.

As noted by this morning’s Press & Journal, the poll’s actual findings were that the eventual likely terms of Brexit turned support for a second indyref from the minority choice to the majority one, which in practical terms is as significant a “gamechanger” as there can ever possibly be.


(It’s rather like the Herald’s sports section reporting that the two late goals scored by Hibs in last season’s Scottish Cup final weren’t “gamechangers”, even though they switched the destination of the trophy from one side to the other.)

But even leaving that aside, the poll is meaningless. The public vote in referendums, they don’t get to decide whether they happen or not – that’s Parliament’s job. We didn’t especially want there to be a referendum on EU membership in the first place, but we still went out and voted in it, as did over 72% of the electorate.

(A higher figure than has turned out for any UK election since 1992.)

Similarly, a very substantial minority of Scots didn’t want there to be a first indyref, let alone a second one, but when it happened a whopping 85% of those who were eligible exercised their right to vote, a figure which represented the highest level of democratic political engagement ever recorded anywhere in the UK.

We’re struggling to imagine there being anyone who wants independence but would switch to voting No because they hadn’t wanted there to be another referendum just yet. And people who were going to vote No anyway can’t vote double No. So whether people want another referendum or not is an entirely immaterial question. What matters is how they vote if and when it comes around.

Implausible as it may seem while its widely-loathed parent company slashes costs and cuts jobs left, right and centre, in commissioning a poll with absolutely no point we can only conclude that the Herald has too much money.

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  1. 13 10 16 14:56

    The wrong question | speymouth

  2. 24 10 16 10:24

    Bmg Uk Jobs

411 to “The wrong question”

  1. Jamur says:

    We go again.
    Bring in on folks…..

  2. Baldeagle58 says:

    Can’t say I’m surprised at these headlines in the Britnat Press, and it’s only going to get worse.
    At least we have you to point out how much of these stories is fiction, and how much is just downright lies.
    Keep up the good work Rev.

  3. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I think this is kinda on-topic, being about newspapers. From the pressgazette link in the Rev’s article:-

    News team merger to create seven-day operation at Sunday Mail and Daily Record puts 22 jobs at risk

  4. Grouse Beater says:

    You have to ask, of what use are newspapers that concoct fabrications in a determined effort to engineer animosity towards our elected representatives?

    By their malfeasance they hope we shy from exercising our democratic rights presuming it’s all a waste of time.

    By what yardstick do they think they have a right to print black propaganda?

    Why buy a newspaper that prints lies?

  5. Macart says:

    Clocked that earlier on your twitter feed and couldn’t believe the Herald’s take on that poll.

    Anyroads, I can’t think of a clearer indicator as to the intent of the Scottish Government than the wee statement the FM made on the publishing of a referendum bill. There’s a few unionist commentators out there right now with more than a splash of egg on kisser at this point. 😀

    If ever there was a case of someone saying ‘Go ahead punk. Do ya feel lucky? Well do ya?’ THAT is pretty much it.

    *Goes off to practice maniacal laugh*

  6. Orla says:

    Note also that the fieldwork for this poll (29.09-03.10) was largely done before the Conservative Party Conference (02.10-05.10). Some of the most inflammatory parts of the conference (Rudd, Hunt) were on the 4th.

  7. mogabee says:


    Well said. *laughs hysterically* 🙂

  8. HandandShrimp says:

    Cue a few raging Yoon punters that Nicola has ignored their predictions that she is rowing back from independence.


  9. Luigi says:

    Yet again, quite a few yoon journalists have been found out, writing personal, wishful thoughts as opposed to actual facts. Who knows, things are getting so desperate for them now, perhaps they will soon come out with a headline what they are really, really wishing for:


    Scotland gives up and goes back in the box


    Genie goes back in the bottle

    Worms return to the can

  10. Robert Anderson says:

    If anyone truly believes the drivel in these papers it may be best if a vote in any election was barred for them. Maybe Amber R could give them ‘numpty’ armbands so that the staff in polling stations could say ‘Oot you go noo’

  11. DerekM says:

    Fire up those indy juggernauts yessers and lets get this show on the road 🙂

    Indy or bust and that is not just a saying it is a fact.

  12. One_Scot says:

    Jeez, The Scottish Daily Express just 15p. They’ll soon be paying money to get people to read their propaganda lies and smears.

  13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Jeez, The Scottish Daily Express just 15p.”

    Haven’t we taught you to read the small print by now? 🙂

  14. To tell you the truth, Macart, in all this excitement, I don’t know whether we’ve had four plebiscites or five in the past two years.
    But seeing that Holyrood is now the most powerful devolved parliament in the world, and can blow Mundell’s head clean off if we call another Referendum, what he’s got to ask himself is; ‘Do I feel lucky?’
    Go on, Mundell, make our day.

  15. Marcia says:

    The Dr Geobbells School of Journalism still thrives with the MSM. Quite encouraged with the poll details the Herald tried to spin to their rather partisan agenda.

  16. HandandShrimp says:

    Nicola’s announcement has left me with a smile on my face. I was expecting something fairly definite but it is clear the Yoons were expecting a fudge.

    I detect a degree of Yoon displeasure, I can see the Ruth scowl in my mind’s eye and it pleases me greatly.

  17. One_Scot says:

    It took a while, but man, that is small.

  18. Toby Lerone says:

    Grouse Beater:
    “You have to ask, of what use are newspapers that concoct fabrications….”

    I wouldn’t call them newspapers any more. They just publish opinion pieces (lies) to satisfy the political views of their owners.

  19. Macart says:


    Can’t find an emoj for a digital Eastwood squint an’ smirk, so I’ll settle for cool. 😎

  20. Vestas says:

    @ Toby Lerone 1:56pm

    “They just publish opinion pieces (lies) to satisfy the political views of their owners.”

    Indeed they do & thats why I for one don’t trust The National. When push comes to shove they WILL backstab us.

  21. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Indeed they do & thats why I for one don’t trust The National. When push comes to shove they WILL backstab us.”

    I would be very surprised indeed if that happened.

  22. Bob Mack says:

    I see Andrew Neil trying to rise Angus Robertson to the Greece bait again. I really will do a post on this nonsense in the near future.
    Greece with a population of over 11.2 million has a GDP OF $242 billion, whilst Scotland with a population of half that number has a GDP of $ 233.3 billion.

    The important difference apart from obviously absurd Westminster overcharging for various aspects of government is the difference in potential for growth.

    Greece relies on tourism for 18% of its GDP, whilst that figure is 3% for Scotland.
    There are many other factors such as exports Greece being 25.9 billion Euros ,whilst Scotland is £ 76 billion.

    The Snp should get researchers onto these things to have a solid Base for dealing with the likes of ligger Neil. They are essential pieces of information.
    Loved the way Angus told him he was “partisan” .

  23. Vestas says:

    We’ll have to disagree then Stu. They are owned by a US company & the ONLY thing that’s going to be on the USA govts mind is the “UK” nukes. Pressure WILL be applied.

  24. heedtracker says:

    Whatever you think about Scottish democracy, it has really stretched the British press to staggering tory stretchyness. Our 21st century democracy has basically become, Scottish democracy v. UK newsrooms.

  25. One_Scot says:

    Some Yoons not taking Nicolas good news as one might have hoped,

  26. Luigi says:

    The compliance of the MSM is a real threat to democracy. Why do the xeno-tories no longer even try to behave? Because the MSM does not challenge them. FACT. May’s accomplices think they can get away with murder (literally).

    I’m no fan of Putin but he hit the nail on the head when he accused the western media of threatening peace in the world by their complete refusal to hold their own governments to account for any of their actions. With no safety breaks, the hawks will lead us all to destruction.

    Every effort is made to support the RUSSIA BAD or SNP BAD narratives, no stone is unturned. But anything that remotely puts the UK government or BREXIT in a bad light is quickly brushed under the carpet.

    When the UK goes to pot, the diabolic duo, the BBC and the xeno-tory press, will be responsible.

  27. TheBuchanLoony says:

    The BBC’s UK news site has a comments section on Nicola’s announcement. The comments on there are quite amazing.

  28. Arbroath1320 says:


    Time for an S.N.P. conference full of new ideas and respect for people of Scotland as well as each other. 😛

    Cue Britnat MSM and their love fest 😉 with the each other as they spew more guff and bile about some party called S.N.P. from alternate universe! 😀

    Apparently a couple of non entities,someone called John Lamont allegedly a Tory M.S.P. and some nutter called Alistair Carmichael, nope I have no idea who he is either, 😀 have been mouthing off to the National about the S.N.P. and their never ending harping on and on and on about independence. 😀

  29. Camz says:

    If nothing else, the 21st century people of the UK will have discovered the smile that is the MSM and the UK political scene.

    Last time it took 99% of MSM, all 41 Labour MPs and much lobbying in England for support to win 55% to 45%. That won’t be there this time, and Fundily Mundily won’t be crating about.

    EU membership lies, currency lies, oil field lies, HMRC jobs lies, ship building lies. You name it, they did it / are doing it anyway.

    It’s odds on next time. 60% Yes or more, if after 2018 (council elections past, and plenty of time for Brexit woes to sink in).

  30. Nana says:


    For anyone who missed Andrew Neil dripping with contempt.

    Are they worried, you bet they are

  31. mike cassidy says:

    Interesting interview with Fiona Hyslop just put up on Euractiv.

    And here’s Alex Massie’s reaction to Nicola Sturgeon.

    Do I detect a slight whiff of excrement?

  32. Auld Rock says:

    I’m in. Having just spent the last three weeks being subjected to endless hours of Fib/Dem, UKIP, Labour and last week UKIP ‘AGAIN’, I searched the programme scedules of the YoonBC to see when our conference was on during the day. Fuck all, apart from Nicola’s speech this morning which was broadcast without a word on either radio or TV beforehand. They are trying their damnedest to muzzle us. Maybe we should think again about restarting, ‘Radio Free Scotland’ and take-over the air-waves again.

    I don’t actually like violence but if I could get hold of the Yoon/s responsible for allowing this infringement of our democratic rights I sure as hell would kick the lving shit out of them.

    Auld Rock

    PS I’m angry, very, very angry.


  33. Macart says:


    ‘Andrew Neil dripping with contempt.’

    Heh. Don’t worry about wee Andra Nana.

    He’s doing a fine job motivating the troops and turning many a no to a yes. 🙂

  34. AdamH says:

    I reckon 1 million new WBBs should do it. Put me in for 1000.

  35. Tony Little says:


    Twitter has a lot of bitter and twisted unionists. Still it makes identifying the ones to block a lot easier.

  36. Jeannie says:

    I’m bleary eyed from the other side of the world, keeping a vigil on the unionist tabloid English press and doing my bit from afar.

    Disappointed of course that the complaint(s)against McFadyen were not upheld. I was one of the complainants, and only ONE complaint from ‘Jamie’ was examined. They didn’t mention any other.

    No mention at all in the Australian press of any intentions of trade agreements with the UK post-brexit.

    Some of my English colleagues are in despair by what is happening in Westminster.

    Bring it on Nicola, it’s now or never.

  37. Chic McGregor says:


    What a petulant childish display by a supposedly grown man.

  38. Andrew McLean says:

    Arbroath 1320 says:2:26
    “some nutter called Alistair Carmichael, nope I have no idea who he is either,”

    I would be lying if I said that chap was an honest politician, rather he is mendacious scoundrel best forgotten about, good he did will be interred with this bones.
    The infamy sounding him is his legacy. And that was best summed up by his Liberal compatriot in his declaration of Liberal Values “We are all liars”.

  39. Bob Mack says:

    @Mike Cassidy,

    That article by Alex Massive is full of trepidation. ,and is also wrong. He makes the point that Scotland has valuable trade with England, but makes the erroneous assumption that England will be as financially stable as normal.
    That is wrong. Scotland will have to expand its European trade as I seriously believe if we leave the Union and they leave the EU,their economy and ability to trade is heading due South, never to return.
    England will suffer.

  40. Soutron says:

    Yes Bob Mack, all of those things. The comparison is ludicrous. The other huge problem (possibly main problem) for Greece is that they have essentially zero control of their fiscal policy due to their membership of the Eurozone. They have been bled dry by austerity.

    Scotland ditching Sterling (keeping well clear of the Euro) and adopting our own currency post-indy is the only sane course of action for us.

    REAL resources are what makes a country rich. Clean drinking water, energy sources, raw materials, labour (skilled and unskilled), capacity for growing food and educating our people. Scotland ticks all of those boxes. The (r)UK is going to find that out the hard way. Marmite anyone..?

  41. Vestas says:

    Anyway, MSM apart, it looks like game on again.

    If we want to remain in the EU then indyref2 has to happen in 2017. Anything else introduces uncertainties which we need like another hole in the head 🙂

    We can’t rely on the tories to stay this incompetent though….

  42. Dr Jim says:

    Facts are always a problem

    The UK is buggering everything up, everybody knows it, but with the No surrender type Yoons own fact creation machine grinding out the piffle that the Yoons want to hear that cause will continue to lap that shit up

    Our problem is, and will be the omitting of the fear factor amongst the rest of the “We don’t want to take the risk” folk because while they know everything’s going to shit they’re still feart of being on “their own can” as we used to say when I was a kid

    The big real news on the Sky and BBC 24 rolling shit can’t not report to the English folk their country’s down the tubes while at the same time telling Scotland everything’s great here so they have a conundrum to solve

    How do we convince the Scots that being shit with the UK is better than running your own business, and the only answer they’re going to be able to come up with will be
    Scotlands shit will be more worser and more smellier than UK shit so come with us on the great shit journey of discovery but trust us Tories to have softer toilet paper

    It used to be broad shoulders, now we’re reduced to the great British Marmite fight back and how the UK will shout no surrender to the real world of “You Fukced it up now deal with it”

    With that in mind they deploy Boris Johnson to rile folk up and the let’s take it out on Vlad the Russian impaler tactic, unfortunately for UK.Guv nobody’s really falling for that distraction, people are aware it’s a different thing and that’s a good sign that folk are catching on to the UK misdirectional politics

    Which brings me back to what’s really important and that’s the Scottish medias approach to rubbishing everything pro independence, do they NOT report stuff or do they misreport deflect distract and ouright lie and when they do it what is to be the response vehicle for Pro Yes

    The National is not enough, The truth is out there but we’ve still got a large portion of our punters who enjoy the art of selective deafness (La La La I don’t want to hear you make the world go away)

  43. galamcennalath says:

    We need a Big Brown Book of Political Journalism. List the most inaccurate and misleading stories of Scottish politics from the last two years. A study into piss poor propaganda.

    It could become essential reading on “media studies degree courses” of how NOT to do it.

    No shortage of examples! There’s one Express journalist who will soon fill a volume by herself!

    On the last topic of “Another Lucky Escape” we could have a Scotland’s Top 20 Lucky Escapes. A stocking filler this Christmas. A wee reminder of how lucky we are to be better together.

  44. Marcia says:

    That young man, Dougie Daniel is a good speaker.

    You can watch the SNP Conference live on the SNP YouTube page;

  45. Dan Huil says:

    Things are ticking along nicely.

  46. yesindyref2 says:

    I need another cup of tea, my brian hurtts having workled this out finally (I hope), where’s SGP when you need him?

    But there’s this from BMG: “Of those against a second independence referendum, just 12% said a ‘hard Brexit’ might change their mind, but three quarters (75%) said a ‘Hard Brexit’ should not result in another independence referendum (13% did not know).

    Now, with the original question being :”Overall, 47% of those surveyed say that they are against a second independence referendum, compared with 38% who are in favour (15% are undecided).

    the third question (second was something else), was only asked of the 47% who say they are against a second referenum, so 12% of them changed to a for, 75% of them stayed the same, but 13% did not know whether they would change.

    So you ignore that 13% totally as they don’t know, take the relative percentages of those that changed their minds and those that didn’t, and apply that to the original against figure of 47%.

    So 12% of 47% is 5.64%, making the total for another referendum 43.64%. But of that 47% who were against, just 75% said they would stay against IR2. That makes 35.25%. Total 78.89% – with now 21% undecided instead of the original 15%.

    But more importantly, rounded up to 100%, we now have 55.3% FOR IndyRef2, and 44.7% against.

    A very curiously familar figure to followers of Indy Ref 1!

    Sorry about the length, anyone spot an error, please post it!

    Anyway, it means the P&J actually got it right, perhaps they did their own maths, whereas BMG whose figures the Herald got their figures from, got it incompetently or deliberately wrong whgen they said: “However, once the results to the follow-up Brexit question were factored back into the original question, the results suggest that up to 43% may back a second referendum, and 42% would be against. Some 15% remain undecided^.

    No, it’s either 44% to 35%, or 55% to 45% ignoring undecideds.

  47. heedtracker says:

    And here’s Alex Massie’s reaction to Nicola Sturgeon.

    Toryboy’s write Sturgeon speeches too now. Its all we’re going to hit with from now til the end of the union more or less. Ligger Neil told Angus Robertson that Scotland’s the worst economy in the West on BBC Politics. Toryboy’s and their double whammy’s.

    “We know that independence will damage our economy.
    Hard independence – removal, not just from the UK, but from the single market as well – will be disastrous.
    Independent experts estimate that the cost to the Scottish economy could be more than £20 billion.
    Here in Scotland more than 100,000 jobs could be lost. Wages would be hit by up to £2000 and growth in the economy would slow.
    There is no rational case for taking Scotland out of the UK’s single market.”

  48. gus1940 says:

    From today’s Grauniad:-

    ‘The SNP Government needs to be held to account by the independent media and The BBC’.

    What world does whoever wrote that inhabit?

  49. Randomness says:

    Enjoying the school break in the Algarve. The only channel in English is Sky news, Brexitbrexitbrexitbrexitaleppobrexit.

    Does anyone need any Marmite?

  50. David Mills says:

    If, the stated goal make that inevitable full border control contravene not EU requirements but common market requirements the free movement of people for employment is in Shirened in the save article as the free movement of goods and services

    To have one without the other would require re-writing of the very backbone of the European project or sum miracle opt-out that would basically massively destabilising to EU as a whole it will come down to “the needs of the many” and the UK for the first time realising it a small fish in a big bowl.

  51. Proud Cybernat says:

    “It began wi’ a lass. It’ll end wi’ a lass.”

    And I’m no’ talking about the Stuart dynasty.

  52. Petra says:

    Just sit back and relax folks and let people like Theresa Marmite May, Boris naebody turned up at the Russian Embassy Johnstone and Andrew unveiling a Xmas tree Neil do the job for us. Independence is on the way.

  53. yesindyref2 says:

    To put it easier, 25% in total of those initially against a second referendum, were swayed by the question about a hard Brexit. 12% became for, and 13% became undecided.

    25% – 1 in 4 changed their minds. Not 1 in 10, bloody liars.

  54. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, dishonest rather than lying, though what they said was 1 in 10 were swayed to back IR2 whereas it was 1 in 8.

    Sorry, I’m afraid I got a bit obsessed there for a bit.

  55. One_Scot says:

    ‘And here’s Alex Massie’s reaction to Nicola Sturgeon.’

    The man’s clearly a Yoon fruit cake at the top end of the spectrum.

  56. heedtracker says:

    Polly Toynbee of the Graun says today’s Bill for independence is a “bombshell.” You have to wade through thousands of Brexit and England only words. They should really just call it Exit, EExit’s too mad.

    “Nicola Sturgeon joins the same united battle to protect tariff-free trading, though her bombshell on another independence referendum undermines that unity of purpose.”

    So there.

  57. Proud Cybernat says:

    Nice one, Nicola. Scotland’s Oot – let’s SCOOT.

  58. Bob Mack says:

    Is it not strange that the Tory government and Labour are trying to appeal to the lowest common denominators in our Society and expect us just to fall into line with that same rhetoric.

    They are now submissive, and in point of fact are joining in just as Hitler did with the fanatics hanging out in the “Beer Kellars”. They have become the very thing we all used to hate.
    Ultra right wing with a policy agenda to match. Appealing to folks baser instincts is easy to do,.It is much harder to stop.

  59. heedtracker says:

    Graun updates causing lots of toryboy pant wetting. 5k+ of Graun comments and not that supportive, shock:D

    10m ago
    Afternoon summary

    Alex Salmond, the former Scottish first minister, has encouraged Nicola Sturgeon to hold another independence referendum even if the polls are just 50/50. In an interview with the House magazine he said:
    There have been six opinion polls since the European vote. Three of which have shown a majority for independence and the other three have all shown an increase from 45%.

    Will Nicola Sturgeon push the button on a referendum if support for independence is, say, 50:50 or at that level? Well, I hit the button for a referendum when support was 27%. Why would she be reluctant on a much larger level than that?

  60. Potter says:

    Massie is full of wind.Wheres RUK going to import all that food,oil,electricity,whisky,gin etc from if not Scotland.

  61. Robert Peffers says:

    I also note the idiocy in the Herald that claims The Scottish Government has no mandate as it did not win a majority in the election. How then are they in government if they did not win a majority? There is quite some difference between not winning a majority and not winning an overall majority. The SNP won a majority on their manifesto or they would not be in power.

    The Herald really has gone downmarket and is well on the way to going down the tubes. I’ve read far better journalism in the local school’s annual magazine than the present batch of failures writing in the Herald.

  62. heedtracker says:

    Just ripping off this one on Graun’s site. Daily Heil’s Isabel Oakeshot v Alex Salmond. Dimebelby’s referees skills to be tested, BBC style.

    ScottishPanda 2m ago

    Looks like tonight’s QT should be fascinating
    David Dimbleby presents topical debate from the RAF Museum in London. On the panel are Conservative work and pensions secretary Damian Green MP, Labour’s shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry MP, former SNP leader Alex Salmond MP, editor-at-large of the Independent Amol Rajan and the Daily Mail’s political-editor-at-large Isabel Oakeshott.

  63. Anybody any idea of the number of expats in Europe ( Scots), who would be seriously affected by Brexit. I know of one couple who recently moved lock stock and barrel to Spain. They voted No in the referendum.
    I think they would be a Yes today.

  64. Dr Jim says:

    “We deserve the truth” yelled Ruth Davidson on National telly during the Brexit debates as she called Boris and the Brexiteers liars to a man, and she yelled it about four times, the full Tom Cruise speech

    Now those same liars (Ruth Davidsons words and description) are the government and now Ruth Davidson says “Aye but Aye but”

    See in my book that makes her an even bigger shit than they are
    Ye cannae be a double agent and no pay the consequences you end up neither side likes you
    It’s kinda like she was used just like Scottish Labour were used to fight Tory battles and that didnae turn oot well fur Labour did it

  65. clipper says:


    So what happened about bbc misreporting scotland stickers or did I miss it? Far as I can see it’s sunk without trace and what about the funds that were sent to support it?

  66. Titler says:

    The press isn’t incompetent, they’re malicious. They run such false stories to set the wider narrative, so they can say “SNP ignore public’s feelings; Independence unpopular!”; where do the uninformed public get a sense of those feelings from? The media that does their best to misinform them and says that everyone thought declaring a second referendum was foolish… And who was everyone? Around and around they go.

    This time though, I think it won’t work, just as the Brexit vote didn’t work out as the Establishment expected; there’s too much obvious pain and economic suffering right on people’s doorsteps for them to believe the larger spin… Which is why I expect the Tory party to fight tooth and nail to deny by any Constitutional means possible a second referendum. It’ll be easier to win this time, but much, much harder to secure one when Government isn’t going to be so complacent on a winning a third referendum.

    Easier, but not easy. You lost the last Referendum because you really didn’t come out of the Nationalist bubble and listen too, or believe people had serious doubts about your arguments… arguments which were, in the case of the Economy, rather ridiculously optimistic. This time, just because Brexit Britain will be blantantly broken, don’t assume you can ignore the economy as a conquered fear and retreat back into complacency. This time around, I suspect any No campaign is going to fight on Doubt again… but doubt that you’d ever get a better deal from Europe, which might be worse than the awful economy you’re seeing right now…

    The EU is already signalling it’s not going to go kindly on the UK Successor State. Unless you’ve got a clear commitment to treating Indy Scotland better, in writing, and that you can quantifiably prove and point too it, Project Fear Mk II is, I expect, going to use that and say “You’re better off with us, because we can promise (promises promises!) this kind of deal with us… But Europe, ooh they’re so scary and foreign and unforgiving”.

    Try and approach it with the “well it’s obvious isn’t it? And anyway, Independence is always better” naive approach as happened in Indy Ref 1, and you’ll get slaughtered again; because people will already be justifiably afraid, and people don’t respond well when afraid to wishy washy hopes. They’ll want an iron clad answer. Make sure you have it this time.

    Likewise expect terrorism to be a more central issue this time around; not so much in Scotland or Scottish influenced, but the question of the Irish border will be a huge factor… The idea of hard borders in Northern Ireland and potentially soft in a Indy Scot in the EU and with free movement of people from Eire will come up. Don’t assume you can just ignore or dismiss that either. If rUK says “How can we be sure Indy Scotland will keep us safe?!” and you know they will… have an answer this time, pressure your politicians to get to work on cast iron promises.

    Personally, I don’t know what I think of an Independent Scotland this time. Was waivering, leaning towards an unconvinced Yes last time; so much depends on how the European Union will react this time that I have no idea at all whether practically it’ll be better for you or not. But I don’t doubt you have the right to call the second referendum. It’s going to be interesting to see how Parliament tries to stop you having one…

    But for Alba’s sake eh, at least drop the sense that if you’re not a nationalist, you’re somehow the enemy within this time. Again, again, again when people feel under threat, they retreat to what they know, who they feel they can trust… tell them they’re the enemy and they’ll turn to the UK Government. They really, really will. Curse it as illogical as much as you like, which it is, but you do have a fair way of dealing with it; Actually be their friend. Care for them. Care for their concerns. Show how an Indy Scotland is good for them, not just because you put Independence above all else, which in their mind, will mean putting Indy above them.

    Make that argument, and this Referendum should as I say be easier to win (if you get one); it’s hard to deny just how bloody stupid 52% of the population was last time and decent people will be aching for a way to reverse that idiocy. But that doesn’t absolve you from playing smart.

    Good luck, wish us luck down south, and let’s hope this whole shit show doesn’t work out as bad as we fear, eh?

  67. heedtracker says:

    Awe. Far right delight of the Heil, boosts red tory kez, because everyone really gives a flying fudge what SLab think, about anything. Wonder how long SLab will keep their new and exciting obedient retainer/ultra toryboy?

    Alan Roden ? @AlanRoden
    Scottish Labour leader @kezdugdale’s response to Nicola Sturgeon’s #snp16 speech.
    12:11 PM – 13 Oct 2016
    17 17 Retweets 11 11 likes
    She says:

    Nicola Sturgeon’s top priority is to divide our country once again. But our country is already divided following the Tories’ reckless Brexit gamble and we should not be seeking further divisions.

  68. Bob Mack says:

    Met a guy today who moved to Spain earlier this year. He and his family voted NO in the referendum. He now sees the threat to his future and will vote yes next time.
    How many expat Scots live in Europe I wonder ? Anybody any idea?

  69. call me dave says:

    Spectator: Massie.

  70. mike cassidy says:

    Marmitegate – the legal explanation.

  71. Roboscot says:

    Robert Peffers:
    ‘I also note the idiocy in the Herald that claims The Scottish Government has no mandate as it did not win a majority in the election.’

    An election the SNP won with 46% of the vote. The Conservatives won the UK election with 37% of the vote and held the EU referendum. Did the Herald say thay had no mandate?

  72. Kevin Evans says:

    If that’s indyref2 in the torpedo tubes ready to be fired can I put out a plea.

    JIM SILLARS – stay away from tv cameras and any media questions or newspapers. I can tell you right now during the last indyref you were used as a stooge for the NO media. I admire your passion I do but you rhetoric turns off more people than it attracts. I can assure you as I witnessed it being packaged and gloated by in Tv editing suites your phrase about “retribution” was everywhere I promise you it turned many maybes into NO’s. Your 70’s-80’s style of working mans clubs trade union politics is not required for indyref2.

    Thanks Jim, am sure you understand.

  73. Al Dossary says:

    Hearing from a buddy at work whose Uncle lives in the Algarve that expats are leaving Portugal in their droves at present due to the drop in their income since Brexit. Maybe that is the Tory plan – get all the expats back and they will spend their cash in the UK from now until they expire.

    Other point about jobs – Fluffy stated yesterday during Scottish Questions – or should i say the Tory filibuster session – that 1 million Scottish jobs were dependant on trade with the rest of the UK. Obviously he is from the Jackie Baillie school of employment figures!

  74. heedtracker says:

    Thanks Jim, am sure you understand.

    You mean Sillars threatening multi nationals there’d be a day of nationalisation reckoning for them, wasn’t helpful?

    If he pulls these kinds of stunts again…well he will but its an awful way to go.

  75. Arbroath1320 says:

    One_Scot says:
    13 October, 2016 at 2:11 pm

    Some Yoons not taking Nicolas good news as one might have hoped,

    I’ve just left him a wee message One_Scot just to make his day complete 😀 … a polite one … obviously! 😉

  76. Arbroath1320 says:

    gus1940 says:
    13 October, 2016 at 3:25 pm

    From today’s Grauniad:-

    ‘The SNP Government needs to be held to account by the independent media and The BBC’.

    What world does whoever wrote that inhabit?

    Methinks someone forgot to take their medication this morning Gus. 😛

  77. Clootie says:

    That unnamed source is really starting to piss me off…has he got nothing else to follow!

  78. Ann says:

    15p for the Express. Things must be really bad?

  79. Ann says:

    15p for the Express. Things must be really bad?

  80. ScottishPsyche says:

    The spluttering rage of the yoons is something to behold isn’t it?

    Well, here’s the thing – I’ll keep voting for independence no matter what and as long as there is a party offering that option, I’ll keep voting for them. Once in a generation was never promised and when the inevitable Canadian comparisons come up, forget them, we are in unchartered territory now. We can have as many referendums as we like. It is up to us and we have just got to hold our nerve.

    Just a thought, those swapping sides now to No, did they only vote for Independence hoping we would get booted out the EU?

  81. Ann says:

    15p for the Express. Things must be really bad?

  82. Clootie says:

    That unnamed source is really starting to piss me off…has he got nothing else to do!

  83. Andy Anderson says:

    Maybe the sentiment in Amber Rudds speech had some merit. Maybe those that believe this poor journalism output could be segregated with armbands with the word numpty in bold. Then on referendum day they could be bussed to the border and told to be on there way.

  84. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Clipper

    “So what happened about bbc misreporting scotland stickers or did I miss it? Far as I can see it’s sunk without trace and what about the funds that were sent to support it?”

    Were you on the mailing list? If not, then you will not have received any stickies. If you were, then you should receive them any day now as have many of the other distributors.

    I am sure there will be a good number here (if they see this reply) who will be happy to reassure you that they have received their stickies and that the monies donated by everyone (Thanks Again, folks) were spent on the campaign in the manner intended. There is still a small residual amount left over which will be going to other good causes.

    I have ALL the receipts if you would like to inspect them?

  85. Arbroath1320 says:

    Looks like tonight’s QT should be fascinating
    David Dimbleby presents topical debate from the RAF Museum in London. On the panel are Conservative work and pensions secretary Damian Green MP, Labour’s shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry MP, former SNP leader Alex Salmond MP, editor-at-large of the Independent Amol Rajan and the Daily Mail’s political-editor-at-large Isabel Oakeshott.

    I get the feeling that tonight, Heedtracker, it is going to be one gawd almighty Britnatfest from start to finish.

    The only question that really needs answering is how far into any of his answers does Alex Salmond get before Brillo boy’s daddy – O (Dimblebum) let him get before interrupting him. My guess is you will be looking at around 30 seconds. 😉

  86. heedtracker says:

    Arbroath1320 says:
    13 October, 2016 at 5:13 pm
    Looks like tonight’s QT should be fascinating

    You have to hand it to people like Alex Salmond, they’re fearless. That museum couldnt be any more Brit English if they were in Buck Palace, with a royal chairing.

    Just the now, BBC r4 PM show very Scottish BBC style, Eddie Mair and Sarah Smith SNP badding it like tory champs. Sarah explains that there is no shift in Scottish polls for independence and that its just threats. Its just another lie but Eddie likes that, Sarah says more SNP bad, BBC r4 ligger at the conference butts in with SNP bad, shock.

    Such is tory BBC propaganda and last Scots ref poll I saw was 55% YES but its not mentioned by our Scotch cringers Eddie and Sarah.

  87. heraldnomore says:

    Oh @Ann, Stu will be after you with his hammers – it’s a small print thing. But glad that no one actually knows the price of the rag.

  88. Young Massie, one of the tenement dwelling half educated cravers of social status faithful retainers, who drones on in the same haughty fee paying school posh quasi RP accent as Torrance of the Herald, believes that wode is the Unionist secret weapon.

    In his column today we are described as ‘died in the wode’ Nats.

    Are they going to plunge us into vats of wode and hold our heads down until we gurgle our last?
    He compares the Self Determination Movement Up Here with the rise of Corbyn and Trump. Dead subtle, eh?
    He should add Saddam and Hitler,surely?
    He really is a poisonous little toady.
    He turns NS’s statement of intent on its head, substituting UK for EU.

    “We know that independence will damage our economy.
    Hard independence – removal, not just from the UK, but from the single market as well – will be disastrous.
    Independent experts estimate that the cost to the Scottish economy could be more than £20 billion.
    Here in Scotland more than 100,000 jobs could be lost. Wages would be hit by up to £2000 and growth in the economy would slow.
    There is no rational case for taking Scotland out of the UK’s single market.”
    Young Massie, when we vote overwhelmingly for self determination, and remain in the EU, it will be your pals Down There who will be trying to negotiate a Trade Deal with us, and our 27 European Partners.
    We will be with the 530 millin, negotiating with the 58 million. The clog will be on the other foot.

    The absolute pish you talk about Scotland losing its trade with England following their Exit is quite risible.

    Like any semi educated English retainer, you’ve got to try your best if you crave English social status, I suppose.

    See all our fish, whisky, electricity, timber, computers, oil, gas, and so many many more vital products with which England cannot do without post Brexit, will still be exported South, but probably with a 10% Marmite hike.
    What do we import from England, that we cannot get in Europe, without tariffs?

    Jam? Cumberland sausages? I’m a Celebrity, strictly Dancing on Thin Ice?

    I cannot even feel insulted or vaguely threatened by the childish logic and superior haughty threats of this sad young retainer.
    The assertion that we export 4 times as much to England as the rest of Europe is also an unsubstantiated lie, the hoary old Better Together threat that England would ‘punish’ us when we vote Yes.

    Every English HQ’d supermarket and company established in Scotland, buying and selling Scottish goods to Scots, is considered as part of this mythical ‘4 times’ the trade which we have with England.
    There is every rational case for taking Scotland out of the UK Single Market, Oh Tenement Dweller.
    It might even frighten you to flee South.

  89. Vestas says:

    If the English/Welsh govt wants to play hardball with anyone then here’s some (live) figures that indicate they are in no position to do anything of the sort :

    The current electricity transfer from Scotland to England is 974MW as of 17:22

    From France to England its 802MW

    From the Netherlands to England its 1036MW

    That’s a total of 2.8GW of power England requires.

    Want to play hardball?

    If France turns off the power then that’s large sections of SE England blacked-out.

    Scotland turns it off – well that’s Manchester/Leeds blacked-out.

    The Netherlands interconnector off – that’s most of central London gone.

    The English really have lost the plot – completely & utterly.

  90. Clootie says:

    One day Jim Sillers will realise the damage he is doing…I hope it is sooner rather than later.

    He fits the classic saying “…having him is worse than being a man short”

  91. gus1940 says:

    Torrance went to Leith Academy.

  92. Arbroath1320 says:

    heedtracker says:
    13 October, 2016 at 5:19 pm

    Arbroath1320 says:
    13 October, 2016 at 5:13 pm
    Looks like tonight’s QT should be fascinating

    You have to hand it to people like Alex Salmond, they’re fearless. That museum couldnt be any more Brit English if they were in Buck Palace, with a royal chairing.

    To be honest Heedtracker I have no idea how they manage it. Whenever I have watched them in action I have been in awe of them … mainly because I had already lost it at the TV minutes earlier. 😀

    In my view anyone from the S.N.P. who ventures onto ANY of the Britnatfest programmes deserves a medal for managing to keep their cool under extremely difficult and trying times! 😛

  93. Quakeawake says:

    Titler @4.28pm Excellent post. One we would all do well to heed. And thank you for your good wishes.

    It got a step closer today and if we can win this fight for Scotland’s independence – and make no mistake, it will be the biggest fight of our lives – we can bring hope that there is a better way to do things to millions of people throughout England, Wales and Northern Ireland who are suffering, like us, in these dark and dire days of neo-conservative oppression.

  94. Chic McGregor says:


    ‘Woad’ I think. Torrance’s error?

  95. Tom B says:

    I haven’t seen or heard any of the outpourings of Jim Sillars in recent years, just heard them reflected, distorted fun-fair mirror style, on sites like this one and by Yoon media.

    Perhaps he’s noticed something I and many others have too -that independence, the cause, has been usurped. It’s been taken over by the comfortably off haves who want independence in order for them to have even more, devil take the hindmost. The just but unpalatable idea of a little less for some in order to have more equitable distribution, focus-grouped out of sight and then existence. A swarm of Thatcherite aspirants nurtured on divisive Britnat class stratification, and old-money on the make, who’d be wimps not to fill their boots, seeing a future of nice little earners in an independent Scotland dawning before them. High tide might lift everyone’s boats, big and small, but what for those with no little boat or safe anchor, half-dead, clubbed insensible by neo-liberalism and already pitched overboard, desperate and drowning? Eugenics?

  96. John Young says:

    @clipper Just to let you know we are at the SNP conference and a very passionate gentleman from Moffat was handing out ” BBC Misreporting Scotland ” stickers and they were being enthusiastically received. Had a great day here

  97. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Proud Cybernat (5.12) –

    Forgot to say, I got my batch of stickers on Monday. Parcel was opened, but no big conspiracy – looks like it’d just burst at the seam when it hit the deck.

    Thanks again for all your efforts.


  98. Valerie says:

    Does Massie have a clue how frigging repetitive he is? That article follows the same steaming, shitty format as about the previous 3.

    Starts off saying, well Nats keep natting, can’t blame them really since Brexit, then:

    BLACK HOLE KLAXON, you are stupid, worthless idiots living in a worthless country.


  99. Capella says:

    That QT list of participants is typically wrong:
    Conservative work and pensions secretary Damian Green MP, Labour’s shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry MP, former SNP leader Alex Salmond MP…” spot the anomaly.

    Should read “Alex Salmond MP, SNP Foreign Affairs spokesman”.

    QT comes out of BBC Scotland’s budget. Shouldn’t it try a bit harder?

  100. DerekM says:

    @ ScottishPsyche

    Still yet to meet one of these yes to no characters that doesnt work for GCHQ or is a mad slavering yoon pretending they voted yes last time,you know i think they are a myth.

  101. heedtracker says:

    In my view anyone from the S.N.P. who ventures onto ANY of the Britnatfest programmes deserves a medal for managing to keep their cool under extremely difficult and trying times!

    True that! This lunchtime, watched Andrew Neil on his daily tory party political broadcasts. Daily BBC Politics farce, as he raged at Angus Robertson that Scotland cant be independent because its the “worst economy in the western world.”

    But them you think how much Scottish oil and gas has been invested in England and pissed away, by same toryboy’s Andrew Neil’s working his arse for.

    Only Scotland can we strike oil, 40+ years later become the worst economy in the western world, and have same tory boot boys that blew all that money, rage away at us for even thinking of change, on a BBC that’s become so expensive and so corrupt, its the main UKOK opposition in Scotland.

  102. Capella says:

    Let’s not forget that, whether it is the BBC, the Telegraph, Guardian, Daily Mail or the Sun, Alan Massie or Siobhan McFadyen, they all fit Chomsky’s description of the Propaganda Model.

    Someone a few threads back posted a link to a paper describing it. “What Makes Mainstrem Media Mainstream”. Well worth revisiting IMO.

    Or, here’s a short 10 minute video summary:

    Thanks to this site – the second most read political blog in the UK – more and more of us are wakening up to the manipulative propaganda pouring out of the MSM every day.

    Thanks to Stu the Revelator!

  103. Kevin Evans says:

    I just wanted to say “I love you’s all” ?

  104. Petra says:

    @ Titler at 4:28pm …..

    Good post and some great advice Titler, in relation to the economy, defence and most of all “be their friend”. I’d add immigration to that list because I reckon that Westminster / the media will try to use this to influence the vote.

    Sending my best wishes to you too and hoping the situation improves for everyone in the UK very soon.

  105. Roboscot says:

    Watching the recording on BBC Parliament of the SNP conference. They only seem to have one camera that has to jump from speaker to convener and back resizing as it goes. Totally amateurish. Are the BBC being cheapskate or trying to make the SNP look amateurishness by association?

  106. Rock says:

    “Implausible as it may seem while its widely-loathed parent company slashes costs and cuts jobs left, right and centre, in commissioning a poll with absolutely no point we can only conclude that the Herald has too much money.”

    Thanks to their cash cows The National and The Sunday Herald which milk gullible independence supporters by pretending that they support independence.

    Buy The National and The Sunday Herald if you wish to keep The Herald alive.

  107. Rock says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell,

    “Indeed they do & thats why I for one don’t trust The National. When push comes to shove they WILL backstab us.”

    I would be very surprised indeed if that happened.”

    Mark my words. The National will not fully support independence when the time comes. It will either make excuses and close down or will give very lukewarm support.

  108. ScottishPsyche says:


    Of course they exist! They turn up on Kaye Adams show every morning and YoonGov et al keep telling us!

  109. galamcennalath says:

    Deep breath. Nothing breakable nearby? Dog, cat, wife, children in a safe place?

    “Andrew, from Halifax, vented his anger at the new proposals put forward by Ms Sturgeon.”

  110. Petra says:

    @ Tom B at 6:18pm …. “Haven’t seen or heard any of the outpourings of Jim Sillars in recent years.”

    Tom Jim Sillars was being chased after by the media in the run up to the EU Referendum earlier this year, because they’re well aware of his views. His comments were being published in the anti-Independence newspapers: That means most all of them of course. He was also on debating panels advocating leaving the EU and used that platform to run the current SNP / Nicola Sturgeon down to the ground for example practically calling her a liar re. her mandate (she’s not telling you the truth) to hold another Indy referendum.

    To be honest I used to really admire the man, more so his wife, but my opinion of him has altered dramatically to the point that I wonder if he wants Independence at all. IF he does he may not be aware that his ‘outpourings’ now are actually detrimental to our cause imo.

  111. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Andrew Neil. Wearing a 4/7 Royal Dragoon Guards tie which he has no entitlement to wear. He never served. A Walt.

  112. Chic MacGregor @ 5.46.
    I ‘m sorry but I think that it’s my booboo.
    I type at three times the speed of my brain sometimes, unlike Massie and Torrance.
    ‘Wode’ is apparently an Olde English word meaning insane or crazy.
    Freudian or wha’ ?

  113. DerekM says:

    @ ScottishPsyche

    Ah that why i dont meet them UKay with an E has them locked up in the studio broom cupboard lol

  114. call me dave says:

    Just keeping an eye on darn Sarf!

    More for the good of my health to see what’s new. 🙂

    Conference good and Nicola looked determined when she spoke.

    Aye! Mr Sillars and sometimes Mr MacAskill might want to find another tent to piss in.

    Well done Mr Dylan:

  115. Petra says:

    @ Rock at 6:55pm and 7:00pm …. The National.

    The National …. Sovereignty…. The National …. Sovereignty…….

    Great day for the SNP. So much that could be said about it but NO …

    The only positive in all of this is that you are probably, in your own inimitable way, actually promoting the newspaper. Great to see too that you’ve moved on somewhat from your prior stance to now quoting terms like “very lukewarm support” (for Independence). Take note too that I buy and read The National / Sunday Herald but I’m considered by everyone who knows me as being FAR from gullible.

    Last post from me on this as I reckon your National / Sovereignty posts are being used to disrupt threads: bore the lurkers to death.

  116. Tinto Chiel says:

    clipper@4.28: I got my stickers on Monday.

    Mike Cassidy re Alec Massie article: “Do I detect excrement?”

    If I ever click on a link to this “journalist”, I take the precaution of applying a generous cordon sanitaire of Vick to my philtrum. This works for all MSM output.

    I’m growing increasingly concerned about Boris and his bellicose anti-Russian bilge. Are the Tories planning on a jolly good war to take everyone’s mind off Brexit?

  117. galamcennalath says:

    James Kelly …

    “Sturgeon for the first time fleshed out the detail of the tests the UK government will have to pass to avert an independence referendum.”

    The Yoon media treats NS/SNP/SG position as a threat, blackmail, being subversive in some way.

    Even before the Brexit vote NS/SNP/SG would make the situation clear – if you do X then Y is inevitable. Remember, NS suggested Cameron might want to consider giving each of the four parts of the UK a veto on the final result. That was very sensible. I do wonder if Cameron now wished he had taken the advice.

    Time and time again NS/SNP/SG have said “these are the consequences if such-and-such happens”. And they have always been ignored.

    So now the latest. And yet still the Yoons see it as ‘holding England/WM to ransom’.

    May/Three Stooges/WM will ignore Scotland and go for a middling to hard Brexit. IndyRef2 is inevitable.

    Simple cause and effect.

  118. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Petra (7.47) –

    Hear hear.

    I chose ‘a hard place’ many moons ago. Not much to do, but nowhere near as boring.

  119. yesindyref2 says:

    From the Express: “SCOTLAND is “very close” to independence new SNP deputy leader Angus Robertson claimed today.

    The Express really is incompetent, it can’t even get that right. Angus Robertson didn’t say that at all. What he said was:

    SCOTLAND is “very very close” to independence

    Fools, jerks.

  120. Dr Jim says:


    You really puzzle me Rock. while I’m not a subscriber to the National you seem to have a personal hatred of it, but here’s the puzzle bit, suppose the National was all the things you say it is and if indeed it did turn against Independence at the last minute as you suggest how would that change the cause of Independence? Would you not vote for Independence just the same, and if you would wouldn’t everybody else whether they read the National or not

    Or is your thinking based on the idea that there are folk who would only vote for Independence because of the Nationals stated position and what would you think of say the Daily Record changing it’s view on Independence to one of support, now I know that’s not likely to happen but it wouldn’t change your vote would it

    So in fact the Nationals opinion means nothing to you so why get so energised about it
    BTW I’m not setting up a row here I certainly don’t mean to do that I’m just honestly puzzled

  121. Anice says:

    With the Tories down south gaining strength, I’m sorry to have to agree that we can’t wait any longer, otherwise Scotland will be torn to shreds by this selfish, immoral English government

  122. Kevin Meina says:

    To show how corrupt the BBC is I was at SNP conference today was questioned by Daily Politics for there red ball yellow ball segment .They asked did I prefer European Union or British union to which I replied European naturally the Eu side had about 150 yellow balls uk had 3 ,on watching when I came home the whole segment was missing not a ball to be seen.
    The cutting room floor for the balls because it was so one sided and not on the BBC agenda.

  123. heedtracker says:

    Well done Mr Dylan:

    Also UKOK mental is watching the whole of the tory BBC led media in ecstasy over Dylan’s Nobel prize. One of the most hard core conservative media industries in the world, celebrates a song writer what wrote all about how shite hard core conservatives really are, shock.

    The worst was the BBC r4 PM crew. What a bunch of tory roasters that lot are.

  124. heedtracker says:

    Kevin Meina says:
    13 October, 2016 at 8:13 pm
    To show how corrupt the BBC is I was at SNP conference today

    Use your phone or camera and film them in action, stick it on youtube. Laura Keunsberg was never with out huge minders at the Labour conference. But its completely the opposite at the tory one.

  125. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @heedtracker –

    It seems Andrew Neil made all his guests stand up for a rendition of ‘Blowin’ In The Wind’.

  126. Petra says:

    @ Jack Collatin at 5:51pm ….

    Great post Jack.

    I reckon that many Unionists forget the most basic premise and that is that (55 million pop) England imports more than it exports and that (5 million pop) Scotland is practically self-sufficient …. exports much more than it imports. Exports a great deal more to England than Marmite. Then again maybe they’d prefer, say, Chinese beef to Scottish in future. No accounting for taste.

    It also makes me laugh at they way that they froth at the mouth and practically go into status epilepticus when we mention leaving the Union. In between times we get castigated constantly for being whinging Jocks, financial liabilities, whiners, subsidy junkies, a veritable drain on their economy and so on. Our education system / attainment, NHS, Police Force etc is abominable. So they say. Scotland in other words seems to be pretty sh*tty. So sh*tty they’re relocating here in their droves.

    As has been said so often before you’d think they’d want rid of us.

  127. G4jeepers says:


    “Ms Sturgeon’s declaration of war on Brexit comes after the Scottish Secretary, David Mundell, announced the SNP leader and the Prime Minister will have their first Brexit showdown on 24 October.

    Mr Mundell told MPs the first meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee to discuss Brexit, involving the UK Government and the three devolved administrations, would take place in 12 days’ time in Downing Street.”

  128. Sinky says:

    Another example of BBC manipulation of the news from Michael Stewart’s twitter feed.

    Michael Stewart ?@mstewart_23 11h

    Have listened to Kaye Adams show for 40 mins on the impact #Brexit will have on our lives & not 1 single mention how we DIDN’T vote for it

  129. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Rev. I realise you are an Aberdeen fan, so, I will use short words.


    It will not matter who is Scotland coach/manager, until we get shot of the numpties on the sixth floor at Hampden, it would not matter if we had Jose Mourinho or Pep Guardiola as manager, we would still not qualify for a major championship finals.

    Can I suggest, once we have gained Independence, turn your energies and brilliance over to getting the SFA sorted-out.

    Now, that is a challeng worthy of your talents.

    Do not jump on the bandwagon of the Lap Top Loyal r the Fans with Lap Tops.

  130. heedtracker says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    13 October, 2016 at 8:20 pm
    @heedtracker –

    It seems Andrew Neil made all his guests stand up for a rendition of ‘Blowin’ In The Wind’.

    Its just unbelievable what we have to endure, pouring out of our tv’s and radio’s toryboy wise. BBC r4 PM gimps even rule Britannia appropriated Dylan’s biggest hits, with lots of frightfully posh English actors reading out the lyrics. A perfect destruction of some very radical art by ferocious elitists so far up there own jacksies, they think they can do it better than Dylan. Only in the UKOK zone no doubt.

    What’s the emoji for throwing up?

  131. John J. says:

    Well done Rev.

    I’m asubscriber to the Herald, for the moment anyway, and reading the article this morning even I could see that the conclusion drawn by Tom Gordon, their political editor, was utter bollocks.

  132. heedtracker says:

    Can I suggest, once we have gained Independence, turn your energies and brilliance over to getting the SFA sorted-out.

    Now, that is a challeng worthy of your talents.

    The English rant away at their FA too. It makes no odds. Not enough kids play football these days. Clubs are run by filthy rich money crazed nutters like Stewarty Milne that wont invest, most matches are boring to watch, its too expensive. A dad taking a couple of his kids to Pittodrie costs much more than the movies. But it didn’t used to.

  133. Dunks says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    13 October, 2016 at 5:12 pm
    @ Clipper
    “So what happened about bbc misreporting scotland stickers or did I miss it? Far as I can see it’s sunk without trace and what about the funds that were sent to support it?”
    Were you on the mailing list? If not, then you will not have received any stickies. If you were, then you should receive them any day now as have many of the other distributors.
    I am sure there will be a good number here (if they see this reply) who will be happy to reassure you that they have received their stickies and that the monies donated by everyone (Thanks Again, folks) were spent on the campaign in the manner intended. There is still a small residual amount left over which will be going to other good causes.
    I have ALL the receipts if you would like to inspect them?


    Got mine last week Scott and take a bow for organising the whole venture.

  134. Liz g says:

    Re Andrew Neil.
    Christmas Trees???? Is that what what will convince Scotland.
    That’s their argument?
    The SNP are irresponsible because… Christmas Tree’s got talked about in Westminster.
    Now despite being half educated I understood he tried to insinuate it was a waste of money to use Parliament’s time like that.
    But in comparison to the amount it cost to talk about Thatcher after it was beyond doubt,she wasn’t listening anyway.
    This double standard thing has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous!!
    I mean what’s his actual point, don’t vote for Independence or you will have to talk about Christmas Trees a lot…a very lot.

    Anybody here having second thoughts now ?????

  135. call me dave says:

    Tesco & Asda deal with Unilever. Marmite is back on the menu.

  136. Macart says:


    Ayup! Its spooky how the SNP keep telling folk exactly what they mean to do and carry out their duties as required by the situation they find themselves in.

    In fact its spookier that the press are so surprised and continue to be surprised by this wild and unnerving adherence to their statements. Especially after their comentariat have gone to such extraordinary lengths to predict the FMs thoughts and actions for her, albeit with remarkable inaccuracy.

    Mibbies one day they’ll get it right, though I doubt it. It must appear to the FM that she’s almost speaking in a ‘foreign’ language at times… 🙂

  137. Petra says:

    Great article from WeeGingerDug: ‘The path we’re walking.’

    ….”The descent into Brexmess continues with Tory xenophobia and lists of foreigners, a plummeting pound and empty supermarket online shopping carts. Brexshit means 1970s Soviet shopping opportunities and the welcoming attitude to non-citizens last found in 1930s Germany, along with a pound that will soon be trading on a par with the Zimbabwean dollar.

    Many voted for Brexit because they wanted to return the UK to some mythical glory day long in the past. Well they got their wish. The pound is now trading at a historic low, on a level not seen since the 1840s and we’ve got soaring levels of poverty and inequality that wouldn’t be amiss in Victorian times.

    At this rate if we wait a bit longer Westminster will take us all back to 1706 and Scotland won’t need to bother with another independence referendum.” ….

  138. yesindyref2 says:

    @John J
    It wasn’t really him, it was BMG the poll company. Or at least it was once they put their article up around midday. Maybe there was a swift panic call to BMG.

    Spot the similarities!

    BMG totally compromised.

  139. Fred says:

    @ Jack Collatin, Wud = Mad, in Scots. Rock fur example is wud as fuck. Mark my words!

  140. heedtracker says:

    The BoJo Prophecies. Could be title of Jk Rowling’s next pile of grot.

    BBC Politics
    1 hr ·
    Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson promises those who “prophesied doom” over Brexit will be proved wrong, with the UK getting a better deal with EU countries.

  141. Petra says:

    The National: ‘An independent Scotland in the EU could be a magnet for talent from the rest of the UK, argues new book.’

    ‘A POLITICAL strategist credited with helping the SNP win the 2007 Holyrood election has set out how an independent Scotland in Europe could experience a cultural and economic renaissance after Brexit………..

    “Our small size compared to England plays strongly to our advantage. We are a 12th of rUK – about a 10th the size of England. Stripping England of a mere one per cent of her high-end economy that is dependent on EU membership would see an uplift in our own economy of 10 per cent.”………..

    “England will not be a world power reborn – no new Elizabethan Age – it will go from a small and fairly successful European country to a smaller and slightly less successful one.”

  142. K1 says:

    So…Boris Johnson is a wud fud…makes sense.

  143. Big Jock says:

    That meeting with Theresa May on the 24th. Will result in the beginning of the end of the UK. The Tories will not listen to Scotland or Sturgeons requests. I expect the referendum to be called by January. Salmond named the date and then started the process. Nicola has started the process so the date can be any realistic date the SNP think is good.

    We know Brexit is going to start at the end of March. It takes 2 years so indi ref could be January 2018! Things will hasten now the phoney war is over.

  144. Sunniva says:

    If we exit UK before Brexit closes, EU would regard us as never having actually left the EU, so we wouldn’t have to re-apply.

    If a powerful body of 450 million people in 27 states would regard us as continuing members, it raises the tantalising prospect of us being recognised in international law as the ‘continuator state’.

    WE could become rUK, and the inheritor of all the former UK’s international role and status.

    We’d have the nukes, they’re on our soil. We could hold the permanent seat at the UN Security Council.

    Given the 48% of Remain voters in England and the 52% of No voters in Scotland who wanted to remain in the UK, it would almost be a duty to claim the crown jewels of the British state to keep rUK going, in Scotland, run from Edinburgh, not London.

  145. mike cassidy says:

    Tinto Chiel 7.47

    My excrement remark about Massie was actually aimed at the fear factor which is emanating from the pores of unionists like him.

    You get the impression they are beginning to drop bricks from their posterior.

  146. Big Jock says:

    Mike look at Ruth Davidson. Gone is the swagger. She is crapping herself. The Yoons have been caught with their trousers down. They conned Scotland once, and who knows maybe gerrymanderd the postal votes. But next time they won’t have any plan just like Brexit.

  147. Andrew McLean says:

    Boris is a fool, an upperclass English twit.
    I can imagine our foreign secretary discussing Syria with Assad and Putin, I would give him till his second Latin eulogy before Putin pulls out a weapon and blows Boris’s head off.

    I still am amazed that the Tory party, who say they are the financial wizards and full of business acumen are stating that Europe will give them all they want to be a major competition to eh, Europe, because that is in the Europeans interest? Really?

  148. Tinto Chiel says:

    “They are beginning to drop bricks from their posterior.”

    Yes, mike, but if they’re like this now, what’s it going to be like after Brexit with economic melt down, Indyref2 in full swing and the polls going in our direction? How much fear can they take before the go completely tonto?

    Tanks at Berwick? The Rev in the Tower? Boris installed as North Region Gauleiter?

  149. K1 says:

    Does anyone have a link to Nicola’s speech today? Marcia had the link to afternoon session with Doug’s input above but Nicola’s speech isn’t on that session. Ta in advance. (I’ve looked on SNP you tube site but can’t find it)

  150. Nuggets O'Pish says:

    Watching ITV 10.00 news right now. Re. Indyref2, just heard their reporter quote very negative stats for Scotland from ‘The taxpayers Alliance’. I’m sure I heard that this mob are right-wing nut jobs. Can anyone confirm. Figures announced as if they were from a most respected source.

  151. Effijy says:

    Can’t believe news at 10 propaganda!
    A tax payers alliance, no doubt a Tory party
    Club suggest Scotland could only join the
    EU by increasing Tax from 20 to 39% or
    Reduce NHS funding by 82%.

    Absolutely stunning level of UK based
    Scaremongering to keep England’s hand
    In Scotland’s pockets!

  152. Thepnr says:

    @Nuggets O’Pish

    Don’t watch TV or pay the license. All they talk are Nuggets O’Pish and mere pish.

  153. Sinky says:

    Tax Payers alliance are right wing nut jobs and their simplistic analysis of the Scottish economy was highlighted in the Daily Mail to-day

  154. Sinky says:

    Right Wing Tax Payers Alliance simplistic analysis of Scottish Economy was in Daily Mail to-day

    Aplogies if this is repetition but post seems to have gone AWOL

  155. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Big Jock –

    Aye, May’s calamitous speech has put Ruth’s gas at a peep, and it showed at FMQs. Far less strident than the pre-Brexit Davidson we had all become accustomed to.

    Not quite the absolute jape it once was, eh, Ruthie?

  156. heedtracker says:

    Absolutely stunning level of UK based
    Scaremongering to keep England’s hand
    In Scotland’s pockets!

    Nation and local yoon culture’s ramping up the UKOK bullshit. Wullie Young does yoon stuff like banning FM Alex Salmond from all Aberdeen council property 2014. Now he’s spending £40k on explaining to Aberdonians just how great he is. I UKOK shit you not. Why would a SLab dude like Wullie ban Scotland’s First Minster? Its probably not in his “legacy” book, although he’s dumb enough to try.

  157. Glamaig says:

    thanks for the mammoth list of Labour stupidity on the Galaxy class stupid thread 🙂

    Hope you can find the Gordon Brown one too, gold reserves give-away, great pension robbery, etc

    I’ll see if I can make it into an A-B-C format like a childrens book. A is for ATOS, B is for Bedroom Tax…

  158. Phronesis says:

    Joyful news about Indyref 2 for those gum chewing half- educated kilt-wearing commie tenement dwellers who have managed to collectively (through a peaceful democratic movement) acquire 2 of the 3 components of what makes people happy and fulfilled. Mastery (the desire to keep improving at something) and Purpose (what we do transcends something meaningful beyond ourselves).

    (‘Drive -The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us’).

    The 3rd necessary ingredient is Autonomy which is just hovering at the horizon within Scotland’s reach.

  159. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    From the BMG website:

    Even with these results added back in, the SNP appear to be far off the clear majority needed in order to hold, let alone win a second independence referendum.

    Dr Michael Turner, Research Director at BMG Research, said “It is not a game changer. The vast majority of people who think there shouldn’t be an independence referendum are not going to be swayed by whether or not we leave the EU.

    This group are more bothered about their UK identity and break-up of the UK than any perceived European identity.

    Oh so wrong on a number of counts:

    + It is presumptous and plain unprofessional to presume that those who are reluctant to have indyref2 would be NO voters in the event it actually happened. Many may well be, but some could simply be registering annoyance that they have to bother to go through the whole thing again, but might well vote YES when they do. Most people are not zealots for either side, they just want to get on with their normal lives for most of the time.

    + After the subsequent back-factoring, the quoted “vast majority” simply didn’t exist! That statement of Turner’s should have been corrected or withdrawn.

    + A further presumption. The poll offered no evidence as to the motivation re identity of those polled, so there was nothing whatsoever to justify the latter statement that this group cared more for their UK than EU identity. This is rank propaganda, not evidence.

    When I saw the Herald headline as I went to get my copy of The National today, my first reaction was “great, we’re roughly evens at the moment, so all it takes is a wee slide like this to tip the balance”. I’m with Alex Salmond on this thing. Brexit is just the latest in a long line of BT busts, and a referendum that starts where we are now is just waiting to be won by sound argument, careful timing and a dash of courage (even allowing for a ~third of voters who are bitter-end Unionists).

    And what’s more, the Unionists know it.

  160. Col says:

    Was that two unionist commentators on Scotland 2016 there tonight? If so why? Oh yeah. SNP conference.

  161. Glamaig says:

    was looking for a link to Nicolas speech, just found it courtesy of Scott Arthur. Cheers Scott! He says its overwhelmingly negative though. What a strange world he lives in.

  162. Dr Jim says:

    Gerry Hassan says Nicola Sturgeon hasn’t done anything for Scotland for two years BBC Scotland 2016

    I couldn’t even get out an Eh?

    Stairheid Curran says and I quote “shite shite pish jobbies crap pish debate within the Labour party” and then she said “crap pish shit meh Thank you”

  163. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    Hi Heedtracker.

    You typed,
    “Not enough kids play football these days.”

    Around 50 years ago, me and my mates were on a day out (probably during a school holiday). We came across a footie game taking place at the playing field in Bridgefoot, just outside Dundee.

    We witnessed one of the most innovative moves we had ever seen. For some reason, these kids (around the 12 to 14 age) had a girl playing left wing on the team that was taking a kick-off from the centre spot.

    The kick was aimed at the area between the right-back and right-half of the opposing team. As soon as the whistle went, this girl started running, collected the ball as it landed, lobbed it over the right-back then moved in and scored.

    I’ve never seen that kind of move in the professional game.

  164. msean says:

    Ill informed guests and audience on this tonight. They obviously spent years living in Scotland.Not. They should put themselves in the position of Scots and then listen to themselves pontificating re Scotland.

  165. Glamaig says:

    BBC commentator after Nicola’s speech: ‘Scotland, as a region, didn’t vote to leave the EU’.

    I think that what Nicola said about the Sewell Convention and Holyrood was just as significant as the news about the referendum bill. Constitutional crisis on its way to a region near you.

  166. Chic McGregor says:


    Poor old Ed Wud Wud Wud.

    Being burned in a Wicker Man must have been a release for him.

  167. Fireproofjim says:

    Question Time
    Alex acquits himself as well as ever.
    Isabel Oakeshott of the Daily Mail is just as nasty as you would expect from a representative of such a rag.

  168. msean says:

    Not a region,a country is what Scotland is. It’s almost as if new directives have been issued. “tell them they are a region,and keep repeating it”

    It isn’t going to work this time.

  169. ScottishPsyche says:

    This is absolutely the last time I watch QT. A bullying nasty audience. The same old propaganda. The Daily Mail’s Isabel Oakshott is a hideous person. Alex did his best.

  170. heedtracker says:

    Trying to think of anything not scary about BBC QT tonight. Must visit Hendon Air Museum again soon.

    Glenda Slag from the Daily Heil was very cowardly on the appalling slagging her disgusting newspaper dishes to anyone not a far right loon. Or, Daily Heil’s crew of neo fascists and world beating perverts, are also cowards out in the open, shock.

  171. Bob Mack says:

    I think it is now safe to assume that the “love bombing ” will be off the menu at the next referendum ,All the better. Still laughing here.

  172. Petra says:

    @ Sinky at 10:37pm …….. ‘Tax-Payers Alliance’.

    Sinky a number of newspapers are running with this story (figures) now such as the Express. I just hope that someone is working on producing some facts in relation to an Independent Scotland’s (approximate) economy. These of course won’t take into account companies that may relocate to Scotland and / or additional contracts that we may acquire from the EU.


    Question Time: Dumblebum making sure that Alex didn’t get a chance to counter comments that Scotland is a financial basket case. Totally despicable wee BBC propagandist.

    Isabel Oakeshott, Daily Mail, an arrogant, ignorant, nasty piece of work.


    @ Glamaig …. ‘List’.

    Posted at last! I’ll try and dig out the list relating solely to Gordon Brown now.


    I watched a news item on ITV earlier tonight about the Yemen. The story related to what’s happening to the people other than them being blown to smithereens: that is that they are now dying of starvation due to equipment for unloading boats having been destroyed / fishermen no longer being able to fish and so on. Adults were questioned holding their babies. The babies in fact were 2 / 3 years old. Babies and adults were clearly suffering from extreme malnutrition. The journalist with the sorrowful tone of voice went on and on about their hellish suffering and yet at no point was there any mention of the fact that we’ve, UK, been contributing greatly to their suffering. I just wonder how many people in the UK are totally blind to what’s going on on this Planet due to being brainwashed by the media.

  173. K1 says:

    Thanks Nana 🙂

  174. HandandShrimp says:

    The Taxpayers Alliance are a bunch of far right Tory sock puppets. They are a semi-detached, supposed, think tank with the aim of reducing public expenditure and flying kites for right wing Tories. In short they particularly want to cut taxes for the rich and severely cut back on the state sector. Public sector workers are agents of the Devil as far as they are concerned.

    If my memory serves me correctly they do not publish much details about the financing of their organisation and a couple of their bods don’t even live in the UK for tax reasons. Unsurprisingly, they dislike every political party to the left of John Redwood.

    Their dislike of the SNP and Scottish politics generally is not a surprise. It is a badge of honour

  175. Orri says:

    Nor sure that the undecided in the BMG poll is that clrar. But it’s also not the only problem. Not only didn’t they ask those who were already for a new referendum if they’d change their minds, pointless though that might have seemed, they also didn’t ask those who were initially undecided. Who knows how many of them would want another referendum then? At least I’m taking it as read that they didn’t ask rather than didn’t report.

    In short the actual support for a referendum if a full English Brexit is on the cards might be even higher than 55%

  176. Valerie says:

    Another horrendous QT. Bit galling some spotty yoof TELLING Alex how bankrupt Scotland is, egged on by that blonde harridan. However, Alex managed to stun some into silence by asking why does the Treasury want to hang on so bad?

    Even the booing of Thornberry when she rather clumsily made the point about loss of jobs was embarrassing. Not because they are rude, or have no right to express themselves, but because it’s denial of the bloody facts!

    But then it’s easy to rubbish facts, if you read and believe the lie sheets pumped out daily.

    How do those booing avoid reading any of the MANY signs and facts that the country is on the brink of ruin, and the Tories just keep insulting various countries that we will have all this free trade with?

    It’s genuinely hard watching the levels of stupidity on display.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @mike cassidy says: 13 October, 2016 at 2:33 pm:

    ” … And here’s Alex Massie’s reaction to Nicola Sturgeon.
    Do I detect a slight whiff of excrement?”

    Nah! You need to get a nasal decongestant, Mike. What your nose detected was a whole cesspit of the stuff.

    What kind of congenital idiot makes a remark so utterly stupid as Massie did just there? The United Kingdom is not a country in any shape or form. It is, as it has been since its inception a bipartite union of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms.

    No British countries singed that document. Even the Kingdom of Scotland, which is also a single country, signed it as a Kingdom. Her partner Kingdom in the deal was the Kingdom of England that, at the time of signing, was comprised of the three countries of England itself, Wales & Ireland. However, That Kingdom of England had annexed the Principality of Wales in 1248 by, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”. It also had annexed the Kingdom of Ireland by the Irish, “Crown or Ireland Act”, (1542).

    So this idiot Massie chunters on about saving the Union by allowing Scotland to leave. How in hades can there still be a United Kingdom when one partner of a bipartite union leaves?

    The Kingdom of England that signed up to the Union already contained Wales & Ireland but it was NOT a United Kingdom of countries as both Wales & Ireland were annexed under the laws that all three sovereignties were then subject to. That is the Divine Right of Kings. Under which a monarch who defeated another monarch in battle just made the defeated sovereign state a part of their existing kingdom.

    The same law applied if a King married the Queen of another sovereign state. Males married and took over the Queen’s Kingdom. Devine Right also applied if a monarch inherited another kingdom.

    The point is that the three country Kingdom of England did NOT abandon The Divine Right of Kings in 1688. They retained the Divine right but forced King Billy & Queen Mary to retain their Divine Right but delegate the Royal Right to Rule to the Parliament of England. Thus England, Wales & Ireland became a Constitutional Monarchy and it is that constitutional monarchy that signed to be an equally sovereign partner kingdom along with Scotland.

    Quite simple you cannot form a United Kingdom with only one Kingdom. Massie is a total numptie. When Scotland leaves the Union ends.

  178. Meg merrilees says:

    Made the mistake of listening to QT tonight. BBC lies are not diminishing!
    Alex was great as usual but Tory guy, Damien Green says Nicola has no mandate and the only reason she is announcing a 2nd Indy ref is ‘bluster to distract us from the fact that her government is doing their day job really badly’; school standards are falling; fewer deprived children are going to uni; people are waiting longer for help from the police.
    It’s all a ploy to distract us from the recognition that as a government they are VERY, VERY POOR, so there! How dare they try to get out of their box! Get back in there and keep quiet! Oh, and he doesn’t think we should be allowed to have another ref!

    Alex said Nicola has a mandate of 47% of the vote, elected on the manifesto promising a referendum and put a very strong, positive case.

    Horrible Daily Mail woman said our economic case has been shredded, now worse than Greece, how will we pay our welfare bill without them? Members of the audience trashed us and then one guy suggested that the English, Welsh and Northern Irish should have a referendum as to whether they want the UK to be split up.

    Dimbleby couldn’t wait to get off the subject and def. gave Alex no opportunity to reply.

    Also, one guy earlier on said he wanted Trump to be elected – think he was this week’s special audience plant. Trashed Hilary. Didn’t recognise his lapel badge but it had a prominent St. George’s Cross.

    What a dreadful programme.

  179. Tam Jardine says:


    I watched QT and thought many in the audience completely ignorant of the implications of leaving the single market. A can of worms has been well and truly opened and there is no way back.

    People talking about respecting the will of the people and getting on with it- making the best of it like a natural disaster has struck… madness.

    QT is ridiculous of course- audience well stacked with right wingers with wee prepared pseudo facts. I like Emily Thornberry and think if she wasn’t being ambushed and attacked from all sides she actually speaks sense on most things. She made a perfectly valid, even powerful point about people unwittingly voting for their neighbour to lose their job and it was idiotically distorted by the Dimbleby and the audience.

    Alex was measured, good humoured and impressive as ever. The audience seemed to react with anger in direct proportion to the amount of common sense expressed by Alex and Emily T.

    As for the risible question teeing up the routine Scotland bashing we seem to be becoming broadly despised south of the border- leave voters can’t cope with the dissent or the foreboding and negativity whilst the remainers probably feel betrayed, jaded and that Scottish Independence will make matters worse for them (which it will in the short to medium term).

    We have to look after our own best interests and that means one path and one path only- as an independent member state within the EU.

  180. silver19 says:

    Don’t watch Sky New paper review, It will make you blood pressure go up, I nearly throw my remote at the telly, Stig from Sun said if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014 we would be a bankrupt nation all because our whole economy is based on Oil. The UK is already a bankrupt in many ways morally and financially.

  181. manandboy says:

    The UK, which has so many inflammable issues, has been set alight by Brexit. When the fire eventually dies down, only dust and ashes, mostly, will remain. In the meantime, Scotland will be gone, free at last.

  182. HandandShrimp says:

    Over at the Groaniard, the article on Nicola’s speech has 9,000 comments. For a wee backwater of no consequence a shit storm and half has been stirred.

    Don’t know why you guys watch QT – you know it is going to be awful before you start. It ceased being interesting political dialogue years ago. 🙂

  183. call me dave says:

    I had a stress free evening never watched QT and avoided radio 5 live too. 🙂


    Two dozen staff face redundancy at BBC Scotland as corporation shakes up productions

  184. Dr Jim says:

    Liam Fox is the taxpayers alliance

    They’re the folk who want to scrap the winter fuel allowance

    They’re the folk who want to reclassify the state pension as a benefit thereby removing the triple lock plus we all know what happens when you call a thing a benefit

    They’re the folk who come up with every vile legislative idea for the Tories to see if they can get them through

    They’re the real Tory government

  185. ed t head says:

    I hpoe another indy ref gets the right result a free scotland will be welcomed by the rest of europe,I as a born border berwick on tweed north side! I will vote yes europe is good for us and fu** it to the May gov we can make a good country, Scotland is a country not a bit part of Englandshire. But only when the time is right I hope it will be yes 2018, 2020. 2019 looks good early may ie the 3rd of may 2019 indy, before the euro vote, brexit later will have to getover the euro mep vote.

  186. Arbroath1320 says:

    silver19 says:
    14 October, 2016 at 12:49 am

    Don’t watch Sky New paper review, It will make you blood pressure go up, I nearly throw my remote at the telly, Stig from Sun said if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014 we would be a bankrupt nation all because our whole economy is based on Oil. The UK is already a bankrupt in many ways morally and financially.

    Thing is Silver he wasn’t even the worst … that title goes to his side kick (from the Observer I think 😉 )who made the usual “claim” that Scotland is a basket case. 😛

    Needless to say I fired off more than a couple of tweets to Sky news over their newspaper reviewers complete lack of understanding of how independence in Scotland works! 😀

  187. woosie says:

    Silver 19;

    Saw that bloon too. Can’t we get someone on telly breaking down these ” Scotland would be bankrupt ” statements?

  188. call me dave says:

    Businesses considering ‘an independent Scotland’ after Brexit vote

    Swinney says SNP could keep pound policy in new referendum

  189. Thomas Valentine says:

    Just seen the John McTernan tweet.

    I’m starting to think all those jokes about “Wee Johnnie” the class idiot were real stories from the life of John McTernan.

  190. Petra says:

    I see that Tusk is now stating that it will be “A hard Brexit or no Brexit at all.” Sorry can’t post the link.

    That’ll save Theresa May and the 3 Brexiteers from sitting in a huddle trying to formulate a deal.

    They are over and out and of course will be fuming that they have no control over this …. being very controlling people.

    Great too that this has coincided with Nicola’s Indyref2 announcement at the Convention and with no guesswork involved now she and her team / s can get on with finalising reports. Helpful too as she’s supposed to be meeting T May soon. How I’d love to be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

  191. WP says:

    Whenever these uneducated weasels spout their lies about
    Scotland’s unmanageable debt/deficit and how we would be
    basket case/bankrupt within ten minutes of being independent,
    we must highlight the unmentionable £1.62 TRILLION debt the
    UK has, and is seen by our media/BBC etc. as no big deal.

  192. Macart says:

    Just done a wee tour of the usual suspects and read up on the aftermatch report on QT in the comments here.

    😀 LOL

    I see we’re still a basket case, deluded, a bankruptcy waiting to happen etc, etc. Mmmmm, just wonderin’ like? But isn’t it nice of these very patient (if somewhat tetchy) folk to put up with such a burdensome neighbour as Scotland?

    I mean, from the outrage in the commentariat columns, to the downright grumpiness in the comments below their measured, painstakingly researched and objective articles, it’s a wonder they’d want to prevent such an ungrateful lodger from ‘leaving’ at all.


    Or we’re seeing Scotland’s true relationship with rUK in living colour. We’re seeing a very politically invested right wing media beat their troops into a froth in an attempt to intimidate Scotland’s electorate. To browbeat, bully, frighten… abuse into submission.

    Pretty isn’t it? And of course we’ve quite tiresomely seen it ALL before and we know who it’s aimed at. Our families, our parents, our grandparents. No, I’m not overly impressed with them either.

    ALL that friendship and empathy. Can’t you just feel the lurve created by the Westminster political and media narrative? The inevitable end result of the language of hatred and abuse, used by the author and the messenger, is to generate on the one hand hatred and abuse in those who read and believe the message. On the other? Fear.

    Who knew?

    And if the content of the message is based on political expediency, lies, misinformation? What happens do you think when this becomes exposed through time and events? Where will the rage of those readers and viewers fall if the former object of their blind rage is no longer there to abuse? If the target of their abuse has moved on and turned its back on their abusers? Hmmm?

    Something the authors and their pet messengers better start thinking about. Their current victims have heard their message before. They know who they need to protect and hold a hand out to this time round.

    Mind you, perhaps they have thought of this? Perhaps that’s why you can practically smell the fear in their words and actions. At some point those whom they have abused, whom they have manipulated to rage or fear will be looking directly in their direction and quite rightly asking some pointed questions?

    Tick tock.

  193. Macart. QT from RAF Museum in the SE. Rattle ’em sabres !
    England on war footing. The Dunkirk spirit. The Battle of Britain. Scotland the subsidy junkie; poorer than Greece. They should count themselves lucky that the plucky English Rose who scribbles for the Mail will still subsidise us. We got a bliddy cheek, we Sweaties have!
    Salmond was quieter, more reserved than usual. He knows a set up when he sees one.
    QT audiences are getting whiter and more and more far righter.
    They are now openly hostile against Scotland and independence. We are England’s colony.
    We are almost there.
    Someone should whisper in Boris Johnson’s ear. Donald Tusk is not a cartoon rhinoceros on the Disney channel.He’ll be opposite you at the table in March, Boris.
    Tusk is less coy about showing his cards pre negotiations. It’s either Hard Brexit or No Brexit is the EU stance.
    So it looks like Indyref 2 is a goer.
    Too wee too poor seems to be the BT Fear Factor this time.
    Thank the Chief we’re not too stupid, Sam.
    To quote the newest Nobel winner:
    ‘They’re selling postcards of the hanging, they’re painting the passports brown.’
    Desolation Row.
    (I know, it was on the tip of your tongue.)

  194. Andrew McLean says:

    The BBC output in Scotland, QT in particular is the epitome of the offence of Hate Crime.

    I spoke to a man from England, who once believed the BBC was the finest broadcasting agency in the world. His job took him to Scotland, he didn’t want to go because his wife had a serious illness and he was trying to get the best care for he he could. A workmate told him that his brother had relocated to Scotland and could not believe how much better the NHS was in Scotland. So he came up.
    He now votes SNP. Not because he feels Scottish, he doesn’t he told me he is a proud patriotic Englishman, but he now understands the lies! He wants us to become independent, to be the nation we deserve. And in doing so, that will change England forever, the entire English political establishment will be destroyed, and be shown to be nothing like the thieving lying bastards that they are.

    A basket case, charming. Nazi, lovely. Scrounging from you, Really?

    I have a message from you, we don’t hate you yet! All we want is for England to be a proud successful country, not the bunch of scumbags you are turning out to be.

    As for Dugdale, Davidson, et all, get off your knees, you are embarrassing, taking down Scotland at every opportunity, to gain favour with your Westminster so called betters.

    This union is over, even the dogs in the street know that. So what side are you on?

  195. Macart says:

    @Jack Collatin

    The times, they are a changin’ Jack. 🙂

    As I said above, those bastards went after the old in our society. The aged, the infirm and targeted them specifically for fear and abuse.

    We know what they did and how they did it. When plucking on red white and blue loyalties fell short, they unleashed Broonmageddon, the sermon on the pound, IDS and the baying mob.

    This should never be forgotten or forgiven of the media or their chaintuggers. We hold out our hand to Scotland’s pensioners and let them know we stand BESIDE them. We listen to their fears and put them to rest as best we can, but we let them know a Scottish government WILL NOT abandon them as Westminster has done.

  196. Andrew McLean says:

    This is the only quarter I will give Kezia and Dugdale, and to a large extent Rennie.
    What we ask of them is too much, it’s like asking a office junior to take control in the boardroom.
    None of them are personally equipped to become national leaders, that is why their parties put them in position, they are place men and women, completely devoid of the qualities of statesmanship required. Easily controlled, a case in point, riding a tank, not like thatcher actually in the controlling seat, but astride the barrel? Then jumping on to a farm animals back?
    Is that anything anyone with a shrewdness and the political acumen would do?
    Could you for one second imagine Nicola Sturgeon allowing herself to be put in that position?

  197. Breeks says:

    @Andrew McLean 7:29

    England needs to give itself a good shake and realise the extent to which it’s attitudes Scotland, Europe, the Middle East, and immigrants from anywhere has been poisoned by decades of pernicious xenophobia from its media, and especially its esteemed BBC.

    The next few few years will see England steering a lonely path towards rediscovering itself, but that journey can’t even begin until they see their broadcast media for what it is.

    I cannot wait to see the BBC turned off in Scotland permanently, and I earnestly hope our written constitution is not so fawning over the freedom of speech that anything as hateful as the BBC or wider UKOK media has to be tolerated. Freedom of speech should not be abused as lisence to manipulate the truth and agitate hatred and prejudice. Freedom of truth should be it’s much more onerous stablemate, yet even these phrases now simply remind me or Orwells Animal Farm.

  198. heedtracker says:

    Guardian says SNP bad, bad, badder, baddest but maybe Sturgeon can save us UK Remoaners.

    “It’s not just that Brexit has failed to generate the support for independence that many expected. It’s also that Sturgeon’s own satisfaction ratings among Scots have fallen sharply, down by 12 points since April. She now trails the Tories’ Ruth Davidson on satisfaction. The inference is that it is time for Sturgeon to deliver.”

    Sturgeon now trails the Tories, The Guardian.

  199. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning,Jack,Macart and Andrew

    Just popped in to see if Nana’s links were in.

    Peace Always

  200. Macart says:

    Mornin’ Smallaxe.

    Wouldn’t miss Nana’s links. 🙂

  201. Nana says:


    Good morning.

  202. heedtracker says:

    Times ligger gets pelters, but jam tomorrow The Vow style, he knows does Kenfarq. BBC r4 Today show explains to Sturgeon how shite Scotland is, so shut up and go away. Neat UKOK double whammy.

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 41m41 minutes ago
    Even pro-UK people should be able to recognise the usefulness of SNP indyref2 threats to get best deal for Scotland in post-Brexit Britain.

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 12h12 hours ago
    / I got pelters for about 12 hours. Perhaps now that Sturgeon is saying the same thing maybe I’ll get an apology or two? Maybe not.

    Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 12h12 hours ago
    A couple of days ago I spent a long time on Twitter arguing with Nats that they should advance Scottish interests within Brexit Britain. /

  203. Smallaxe says:

    Morning Nana,Kettle is ready for blast off,see you later.

    Peace,Love and Links xx

  204. heedtracker says:

    UKOK hacks are a hoot though. What a bunch.

  205. Robert Louis says:

    I sadly watched a small part of QT last night, and boy was it shocking. I mean shocking in the sense that so many in that audience in England seemed overjoyed they were going to be made poorer, with higher food prices, a lower pound, and a generally increased level of society wide poverty. Who cares if Nissan moves out of Sunderland?

    Yet, when one of them was asked why? the response was just the usual vague sloganeering – controlling immigration (much of the UK imigration is from outside the EU, and yet successive Westminster governments did little about it – including a certain home secretary Theresa May), besides EU migrants come here to work, and pay taxes, and actually benefit the economy. The other reason was getting back ‘our’ sovereignty – something that had never been lost from Westminster.

    I’d say these people are deluded, and have been mis led by a rampant right wing media.

    However, what really shocked me, was that anybody pointing out REALITY, like the pound crashing day by day, was literally boo’d. ‘You are just a ‘remoaner’, get over it, etc.. etc..

    I’d be infavour of leaving the EU too if I thought it was a good idea, but it simply isn’t. It is fed in England by this wishy dream-like notion of ‘the good old days’ when Britain was GREAT. When we ruled the world, and countries everyhwere listened. Rule Britannia etcc.. let’s re-launch the Royal Yacht and so on. It is delusional.

    I have news for those people, their is no empire, the world simply does NOT sit up and listen when London speaks on anything nowadays, and the bizarre notion that although our food from the EU will be maybe 25% more expensive, we can start trading with Australia and get ‘cheap’ Oz wine, or form trade deals with China etc.. All of these countries around the globe will happily do a trade deal with the UK, of course, but the UK is sooooo tiny, that the terms will never be good for the UK.

    Then there is the ‘but the UK is the world’s 5th 6th largest economy’. The fact is, the top three golbal economies make up over 50% of world economic power. Being 6th largest is nothing to brag about. It is relatively inconsequential.

    The English, collectively, have gone mad, and their so-called leaders have literally abdicated their true responsibilities. Crazy, crazy times.

    Independence is no longer just desirable for Scotland, it is now becoming essential for our very survival. It cannot come soon enough.

  206. heedtracker says:

    A wannabe Ligger Neil puts the UKOK boot in,

    Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 17m17 minutes ago
    Eventually England will demand referendum in England just so don’t have to listen to Sturgeon on radio/TV chuntering on about independence

  207. Jamur says:

    Morning, @clipper
    I can confirm I received my BBC stickers.
    Proud cybernat has done us proud!

    Time to stick it to them……

  208. Capella says:

    @ Nana – excellent article in the Canary about how the MSM is smearing anyone who dares to get involved in the democratic process. The Times, paper of record, owned by Rupert Murdoch as is the New York Times, sets the tone. Prime targets are Corbyn supporters and the Scottish Independence movement. Dangerous.

    Happily, it looks as though any Progressive movement may form a combined front to defeat the MSM. Hope so.

    Good news was that below that article was a link to Chunky Mark’s rant on Marmite!

  209. galamcennalath says:

    Macart says:

    “Its spooky how the SNP keep telling folk exactly what they mean to do and carry out their duties as required by the situation they find themselves in.

    In fact its spookier that the press are so surprised”

    I read something like this somewhere in the past week …

    Unionists are like goldfish swimming round a bowl constantly surprised by the toy castle.

    It is an odd phenomenon, Unionists being surprised that the SNP actually carry out what they say, especially the media.

    It could of course just be pretendy surprise to help make a negative point. And we are well aware they believe a section of voters do indeed appear to have memories like goldfish!

    Or, it does look as if there is widespread denialism and cognitive dissonance in the minds of Unionists. Their believe system has their exceptional UKOK world view as the only possible reality. Then when confronted by the proposal that UKSucks and Scotland should take a different path, Unionists are only capbable of very muddled thinking!

  210. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Louis at 8:43am

    Good description of the madness gripping England. Remember, more than half of them voted for very right wing parties in the general election (Con+UKIP), so the shift to beguilingly simplistic right wing politics began before the Brexit vote.

  211. heedtracker says:

    These guys should really be wearing pith helmets, if they are in Glasgow this week. BBC r4 Today says they are coming up to the SNP conference tomorrow, also in pith helmets.

    Martin Kettle ?@martinkettle 21h21 hours ago
    Nicola Sturgeon’s speech in Glasgow today was not, repeat not, the speech of a woman who intends an indyref2 any time soon. Brinkwomanship

    MichaelWhite ?@michaelwhite 46m46 minutes ago Kingston upon Thames, London
    Nicola Sturgeon’s arguments for Scexit carry same risks (more?) as those for Brexit. But on @BBCr4today she is a very formidable operator

  212. Ken500 says:

    Nicola started twice as popular as Davidson. SNP voters 46%. Tory voters 22%. Any polling result for Nicola would have to be doubled. YES is up to 55% YES, YES, YES. That is without the mess that letter 50 is going to deliver. If the Tories dare frame it. Thatcher all over again but worse. Under a FPTP Westminster system the Tories and the rest of the ‘opposition’ would have been wiped out in Holyrood. Instead of the 3rd rejections regurgitating. The BBC and MSM completely do not report the different electoral systems. Deliberately or incompetent and ignorantly?

    Could the Tories make a bigger mess if they tried. No wonder people feared their return. Cameron the worse PM in history. The fall in the £ has lost £Billions in the British economy. The lies, the cheat, the spin. Farague has disappeared to the US trying to rake in more money in. What a chancer. He is a crook who should have been put in jail long ago, for funding a Political Party with public money.

    The ‘pycho bastards’ wants to start a war with Russia. They think Russia is going to invade? Complete nonsense. Trident will be going. The US do not want it here. McMillian illegally and secretly dumped it in Scotland.

    The played out refrain ‘Scotland is a ‘ basket case economy’ Total lies. The Westminster political mess of debt. Scotland would be a productive, prosperous more equal, fairer country. Scotland has always been in surplus which was taken illegally and secretly by Westminster liars. A £300Billion Oil fund has been wasted. Westminster’s illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Westminster Unionist multimillionaires and their associates squander and plunder public funds at every opportunity. eg Hinkley Point and HS2. In consultancy fees, interest payments, banking fees/charges and fraud.

    The latest economic policy costing Scotland £Billions taxing the Oil and Gas sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%, losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Scotland could have had nearly full employment. A low unemployment rate, with less welfare benefits. The tax is now 40% from Jan 2016. Untaxed fracked US gas is now being imported. Putting up the balance of trade deficit and the debt.

    Scotland has to make debt repayment on money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. Nearly £4Billion, loses £3Billion in tax evasion, could put a tax on ‘loss leading drink’, £1Billion. Gain £4Billion+ in Oil & Gas revenues, cut nearly £1Billion from Trident. Total equals £13Billion – the ‘Deficit’, caused by Westminster policies. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy. The VOW of extra powers was reneged upon and not delivered.

    Scotland loses the opportunity for £Billions of EU renewable Grants because of Westminster indecision. The CCS projects promised worth £Billions were reneged upon. Longannet and Peterhead. Coal is plentiful all over Scotland. Scotland received extra CAP payments, Westminster took it. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU.

    The Tories have banned coal production, banned wind turbines in England, cut investment in renewable. Wind, wave and solar. Imagine is every building where applicable had solar panels how much cleaner, cheaper energy would be produced. Nuclear waste is being flown around the world. A disaster waiting to happen.

    Scotland is doing much better under SNP Gov policies but would do even better without Westminster gross interference. Andrew Neil is a Tory alcoholic who needs proper rehab treatment. A total BBC liar along with the rest of them. An insult.

    The only legacy the Labour/Unionist/Green will leave Aberdeen City is the grotesque appalling monstrosity in the City Centre costing £Millions to add to their gross mismanagement. The only thing to do would be to knock it down. The attacker in the recent investigation was reported to a Councillor and MP for attacking another youngster. Nothing was done. The investigation is now being covered up. The full Report is not being publicly released.

    Scotland raises £54Billion in taxes. Spends £56Billion without the UK policies. The UK raises £515Billion. The rest of the UK raises £461Billion. Divide by 11 (pop 11/12) = £42Billion pro rata. The rest of the UK borrows and spends another £75Billion + plus a £20Billion black hole (factored in as growth – which never happens) £95Billion, although it is said to have fallen. Scotland has to make repayment on the borrowing – nearly £4Billion, although it isn’t borrowed or spent in Scotland.

  213. Capella says:

    @ heedtracker – that Sun attack article on Paul Mason should be a case study for budding WoS style bloggers. Spot the smeary memes:
    Corbyn’s firebrand celebrity guru
    devastating verdic
    labour’s hapless leader
    Mason sups posh beer

    “The conversation – at the troubled party’s conference in Liverpool two weeks ago – was recorded by a bystander and passed to The Sun.”

    Pleased to read that Paul Mason “issued a diatribe of vile abuse at the newspaper” although, like everything else in the piece, it’s probably a lie.

  214. louis.b.argyll says:

    ‘..We’re just 6 million…’

  215. Macart says:

    @ galamcennalath

    ‘Cognative dissonance’ is one explanation and probably the kindest that could be applied. 😀

    In fact I’m sure it does apply to some of them and almost certainly their readerships.

    How and ever, for the vast bulk of the media, I agree its a simple and effective method of explaining away their basic dishonesty and misrepresentation.

  216. Sassenach says:

    Re QT last night.

    I think the SNP should never put up any more panellists to this programme. Why, after the way they are generally treated by ‘selected’ audiences should they bother?

    Fortunately Alex kept very calm, but others would have been hard pressed to. Dimbledum was his usual self!!

    These right wing English, representative, audiences are either ‘selected’ or it is now true that all English people do hate the Scots. Whichever, there is no point putting our people up to be ‘Aunt Sallys’.

    England, in general, seems to appreciate little or nothing about the Scottish situation – it’s way too late to change them (and they don’t have any vote in Indyref anyway), so why bother?

  217. garles says:

    I am working down South at the moment.Just had a conversation with a Northeast guy working with me.

    “Aye bonnie lad weel let you go but first weel bomb the shit out of Scotland”

    Great to be part of this UKOK

  218. One_Scot says:

    In the past I can recall many instances when someone from the SNP was being interviewed by the Yoon media and the interview suffered from ‘technical problems’, one recent one in which Skys Kay Burley was interviewing Nicola Sturgeon outside Westminster. There was clearly work being carried out in the area that sounded like a drill or a constant aeroplane noise.

    What I noticed was that when Kay was talking to her in-house correspondents, the noise was there, but bearable, however when she started talking to Nicola, the noise level became unbearable to the point it was almost pointless trying to work out what Nicola was saying. Yet somehow when the interview was over and she went back to her Sky colleague, the sound was quieter again.

    Technical difficulties when dealing with the SNP, coincidental or intentional,

    Is this what we really aspire to, to be obedient retainers to have the piss taken out of us at the slightest whim?

  219. Druisear says:

    “We’re struggling to imagine there being anyone who wants independence but would switch to voting No because they hadn’t wanted there to be another referendum just yet.”

    There is somebody, and the BBC managed to find her for a soundbite for Good Morning Scotland today.

  220. Ken500 says:

    The deluded MSM fail to report it was Westminster UK policies which caused the migration crisis in Europe. Britain, France and the US” Illegal wars and arming and supporting ‘Rebels’. Taking down legitimate government leaving chaos in their wake. Britain, France and the US carved up the Middle East and took their resources for nearly 100 years. France in Syria, Algeria. Britain in Iraq and Iran. They even supported Itaq invading Iran. Churchill/US M15/CIA (official documents are in Washington) overthrew the Iranian MP and put him in jail, Took all the Oil resources and re imposed the deposed Shah.

    The Balfour Agreement 1917. Lloyd George established a right to a Jewish State on ailing Ottoman territory land. Israel is now an Apartheid State. The US/UK France support the most absolute despot monarchies in the world. Policies in Israel and Saudia Arabia would not be tolerated in the US/UK and France. The UK and US having caused the migration crisis in Europe want to leave without engaging in a solution but keep bombing Syria. If every country took a quota of refugees it would help find a solution.

  221. Papadox says:

    Londinium and its shot callers are vehement that they are going to slash and burn anything anyone who doesn’t pay their way, think they call it austerity.
    Since Scotland is the biggest drain on their economy why are we the only basket case they are frantic to hold onto.
    Maybe we are a very handy whipplng boy that you can take your frustrations out on and unite your English classes in a focal point of derision and revenge.
    SO WHY ARE THEY TERRIFIED OF LOOSING POOR WEE SCOTLAND? If we cost them so much and are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
    That’s the establishments viewpoint, understandable maybe. What the proud Scots but angle is? Now that’s a whole new mind set. Even god almighty couldn’t make sense of that enigma.

  222. Socrates MacSporran says:

    This post is off-topic

    DDid anyone else notice the horrendous boob on the Herald website last night?

    In reporting the death of that poor wee toddler in a road accident, they had it happening in: COOPER Angus.

    I despair of what that paper has become.

  223. Bob Mack says:

    First ,let me state that I know for sure Scotland is sound enough economically.

    However ,let us propose that what the commentators say is true in that we have a deficit of billions. Fair enough.

    The major problem with their argument is that due to Brexit we are most definitely going to have a deficit far in excess of the claimed( £15 billion) if the current trends in the business and financial sectors continue. It is a racing certainty.

    Therefore the choice is between those two things. At least with independence the future is what WE make of it. The financial case to block independence may have persuaded some people last time out, but it no longer holds water.

  224. One_Scot says:

    As for the timing of IndyRef2, I’m no expert in human evolution, but I believe that it has to happen around the spring/summer of 2018 for the best chance of success, at a time when most people have woken up from their winter ‘human hibernation state’, and still have a positive optimistic ‘can do’, ‘anything is possible’ attitude about the coming months ahead of them, and the future of Scotland.

  225. AnTeallach says:

    I received my stickers this week and am busy getting them distributed.

    Thanks to Proud Cybernat for his hard work 🙂

  226. Capella says:

    SNP Conference livestream beginning

  227. Kevin Evans says:

    I would be impressed if the EU once article 50 is trigger comes out and issues clear statements on Scotland’s continuing membership is the EU.

    Statements explaining we would not have to rejoin but continued membership
    Since it is continued membership the Spain veto garbage is irrelevant.
    Euro is a choice for Scotland that could be decided once in as an autonomous member.

    From what I can gather so far these seem to be the main points being flogged by the yoons and media.

  228. ‘Morning, Smallaxe. Hope you are well.
    Macart, you are spot on. This time we shall not allow the pernicious lies about pensions to fester and frighten.

    If Brown dares show his lying face during Indyref 2, we must ensure a warm welcome.
    I’m still beilin’ that he sneaked into Clydebank Town Hall to deliver his Clunking Pish surrounded by the lap dog Scottish Meedja and So Called Scottish Labour Party Flunkies.

    Scottish pensioners must be told the truth.

    They paid into a UK Pensions scheme, ergo, the rUK DWP are legally obliged to continue paying them. Just like Silver Swallows in Spain, France, Italy, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the States.
    Brown lied through his teeth, and fecked off back to South Britain before I had finished my roll and South Uist black pudding, not 600 yards from my but’n’ben.
    Next time, there will be no more wee secret meetings where Darling, Carmichael, Brown, Dugdale, Rennie, and the Absolute Disgrace Ruth Davidson strut their stuff and the entire Scottish media films, snaps, and cuts and pastes every lying anti Scottish word.
    They must be hounded and challenged at every turn. We must make the news, not defend the Independence Movement every time some corrupt ‘Retainer’ lies about Scotland.

    Smallaxe, Gretna is going to grow into quite a Border BoomTown come Independence when rUK ‘takes back control’ of Merrie England.

    Customs Stations, Japanese, South Korean, and Indian car manufactures closing down in England and moving their production back into the EU, and Gretna and North Berwick are nailed on to get first refusal.

    The Borders Rail links will require massive upgrades. New Factories, housing, schools, Hospitals, will be required sharpish.

    Stranraer, Cairnryan, Rosyth , Prestwick, will boom as international companies move their HQ’s North, back into the EU, and tens of thousands of Southern economic migrants apply for work visas/ political asylum, hoping for work in the Booming North.
    It has already occurred to business analysts, Whitehall civil servants, bankers, investors, and the Ruling Class in London that Scotland will be BOOM City when rUK leaves the EU, and we vote YES, and remain within the EU.
    Money never sleeps, nor has it any loyalty.

    They will do everything they can to stop us. Thankfully it’s too late. It’s time the Herald Hacks, and the Record Ranters realised that.
    How many MSM redundancies will it take before the penny drops?
    Keep well, My friends.

  229. Smallaxe says:

    @ clipper:

    Wingers are very proud of Proud Cybernat,and also entertained by his imgur productions,I hope that you have received your stickers my friend.

    Peace Always

  230. Nana says:

    @Capella I watched Chunky Mark yesterday, his high pitched rants are great.

    Did you see this on the canary

  231. Black Joan says:

    Typical Radio4 Today prog Scotland-bashing during long interview with Nicola this morning — extra long because they had to keep coming back to try another item from the standard UKOK list of too wee, too poor, too stupid barbs every time Nicola batted one away. They got nowhere.

    Beware: tomorrow’s programme to be presented from the SNP Conference by J. Naughtie.

  232. Smallaxe says:

    Jack Collatin:

    Hello Shipmate,the Deckchairs are ready for us,if your passing let me know and I will turn on an unused mobile phone at an arranged time,I can switch it off again afterwards,so that I don’t have calls from our many fans! 🙂

    Peace Always my friend

  233. Ken500 says:

    SKY at SNP Conference.

    Airing the myth people would come to Scotland to get to England. They would just go to England. Most migrants go to London to get a job. London S/E has lower unemployment. 3% because of higher investment. London voted to remain in the EU. Most major cities in the world are more cosmopolitan. Any terrorist activity in Scotland came from the south.

    Cochrane talking nonsense. Caught between the Devil and a hard place. Lesley Riddoch OK. Fishing. The fisherman overfished the seas. Threw back dead fish for years. The fishermen sold off quotas. Any Gov would have had to bring in conservation measures. Scottish/UK/EU Gov.

    The fisherman are now using larger net after agreements with the SNP Gov leading to higher quotas. Norway always fished responsibly and did not countenance throw back. Under EU rules home port fishermen have an exclusive 100 kilometre rights. Scotland doesn’t have boats to patrol it’s shores. Keeping out illegal drug consignments. Drug/drink abuse is destroying communities and costing higher public services. Not terrorism.

  234. galamcennalath says:

    Sassenach says:

    “I think the SNP should never put up any more panellists to this programme. Why, after the way they are generally treated by ‘selected’ audiences should they bother? ….there is no point putting our people up to be ‘Aunt Sallys’.”

    From a Yes converts perspective it only reinforces their believe that the Union and everything about it sticks to high Heaven.

    Hopefully from a soft NO’s perspective it might just open their eyes to the reality of how Scotland is treated. It is essential for ‘oor guy’ to come across as cool, calm, and competent is an awful situation. That way they don’t look like ‘Aunt Sallys’, they look like statesmen and women. They make most of the other panellists and BumbleBum himself second rate. Salmond is master of this!

    Hard NOs are the same type as those in the audience!

    Now, what would happen if the SNP boycotted everything which of biased? Opportunities to reinforce existing Yes support, and make converts as unionists show their true dark side, would be lost.

  235. DerekM says:

    @ Jack Collatin

    Totally agree Jack the money men only have loyalty to money you can already see them twitching in the markets as they try to offload sterling anyway they can this is what is causing the pound to crash the worst of it is they have not even started article 50 yet.

    The buzzards are circling its going to get real ugly.

  236. Scott says:

    Sassenach says:

    14 October, 2016 at 9:22 am

    Re QT last night.

    I agree with what you say and also liked what Alex had to say about Damian Green reading from his script and the Mail dame being told why is the treasury desperate to hold on to Scotland by Alex,
    I thought the panel did not no the questions so why did Green have a script to read from.

    PS Could someone not dig up some dirt on Brillo I’m sure he is not the squeky clean he likes to make out.

  237. harry mcaye says:

    Sassenach – I would disagree. Alex more than held his own and made some very good points, especially the one about imagine UKIP running the country with one MP and that’s what Scotland has to put up with. I think many Scots will have been riled by the likes of Oakshott running us down and Green having to consult his SNP Bad notes. On the whole I think QT is a good recruiting sergeant for us.

    On the stickers. I made a very modest contribution and I can’t remember what the deal was. Do I get sent any? Fair enough if I don’t, it was only £3.

    Got my National ok today at Sainsbury’s, Hamilton. In a prominent position too. Not only that, the Mail and Express were hidden round the back. Ye gods!

  238. Chic McGregor says:

    I do not believe the deficit in an independent Scotland would be as high as £15 billion.

    I do not believe the UK deficit is as low as is stated. Things like QE and other omitted items from the Government debt figure disguise the real situation there.

    However, even if it were that bad, we would deal with it, and in a far fairer and constructive manner than London would.

  239. If the unionists even believe a fraction of the tripe they peddle about the Scottish economy and how Scotland can’t afford to be independent.

    Then they should be explaining to us how we are supposedly better together if our country has been so impoverished as they claim it to be after 300 years of being governed by Westminster.

  240. Ken500 says:

    In Scotland (UK) pensions are paid by Scottish taxpayers. UK gov pensions are paid from current expenditure. There is no UK Pension fund. Scotland pays (UK) gov pensions. £16Billion raised in Scotland from the £54Billion goes to pay (UK) pensions/welfare benefits. Other pensions distributions are according to the pension rules. Army pensions come from the Minstry of Defence. Budget £36Billion. Scotland pays a pro rata share from the £54Billion. £3.6Billion. Including nearly £1Billion for Trident.

    Pension are paid from funds all over the world. Pensions are paid in and out of accounts all over the world. The currency exchange influences payments. UK banks make profits from pensions funds established in India etc. These are some of the service industry which benefits the UK. Scottish financiers had respect world wide. Until Westminster Unionists crashed the world banking sector. Aberdeen Asset Management is one of the most biggest successful funds in Europe.

    Thank goodness for Nicola, Alex and Co standing up for Scotland. What would Scotland be like under Westminster Unionist control. In April the SNP Gov will have the power to stop sanctioning the vulnerable. Vote SNP/SNP in May 2017. Vote for self governance/Independence.

    Higher SNHS funding, prescription, social care, student loan support. Investment in major projects, Forth road bridge, roads, hospitals and schools etc.

  241. Bob Mack says:

    Interesting to hear various experts deciding that Nicolas is playing a game of bluff.
    I think they are wrong. I think what Nicola is doing is the prep work till Brexit is
    triggered. This country has not yet begun to feel the effects of Brexit. What we see
    now is just the beginning.

    Humans can be funny creatures. We learn through experience whether good or bad.
    Like telling your children not to touch the gas cooker and then what do they do ? They try to touch the cooker. Only when the full effects of Brexit really bite will minds become focused. Nicola knows this.

    That is why she is running the indy 2 push in tandem with Brexit As the economy unravels, increase for independence will definitely grow

    They think they know Nicolas every move. I do not think they do.

  242. Luigi says:

    Bob Mack says:

    That is why she is running the indy 2 push in tandem with Brexit As the economy unravels, increase for independence will definitely grow

    I like that idea – as BREXIT begins to bite, support for Independence slowly grows. Whilst the yoons and the MSM go apeshit and waste time and effort, try to guess what is coming, furrows are being ploughed and seeds are quietly being sown.

    Coming soon:

    Harvest time. 🙂

  243. Legerwood says:

    Socrates McSoorran

    Herald headline: Cooper Angus.

    I saw it online last night and pointed it out to my husband.

    It was disgraceful given that it was headlining a child’s death and serious injury to other children. Comments were closed on the article so could not point out the error.

  244. HandandShrimp says:

    I notice that Kettle, White and others think the draft bill is a bluff.

    The question is punk…do you feel lucky?

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  245. Capella says:

    @ Nana 10.31- good video, Trews about BBC Propaganda, Lies, Bias & Cover up’s with Kerry-Ann Mendoza out campaigning. Quite a catalogue of BBC propaganda exposed.

  246. Joannie says:

    Couldn’t believe my eyes watching QT last night, although Alex Salmond held his own very well against a pair of right wing, populist bullies in front of a hostile crowd. Not so the Labour woman, who was barely allowed to get two words out without being sneered at to laughter and applause from the crowd. I don’t like the woman much, but I ended up feeling sorry for her.

    As for Dimbleby’s moderating skills, the less said the better.

  247. Petra says:

    @ Galamcennalath at 9:03am ….. “It is an odd phenomenon Unionists being surprised that the SNP actually carry out what they say, especially the media.”

    In their arrogance Galamcennalath they had convinced themselves that Nicola Sturgeon would have to go cap in hand and beg Theresa May for her permission to carry out another Referendum and that Theresa May in turn would just say no. They’re gobsmacked at, as they see it, Nicola Sturgeon’s audacity to clearly and very publicly demonstrate that she’s calling the shots: Not Westminster. Dearie me how can that be?

    You’ll notice that when Theresa May (and other key politicians) has been asked about this …. could / should Scotland hold another Referendum …. she’s refrained from committing herself and gone off on a tangent with the ‘should’ argument. Some in the media, with their Colonial type superior attitudes, seem to have missed that.

    They’ll also have been totally taken aback with the way in which Nicola’s warnings, which can be witnessed Worldwide (on YouTube – not broadcasted in full in the UK of course), have been directed to Theresa May and thinking, with eyes bulging and mouth agape, how dare this wee lassie from a cooncil house (on a par with a tenement) speak to our Big T like that? To be fair it’s confusing for them when you take into account their experiences of the grovelling, cringeworthy behaviour of people like, the Scot, Ruth Davidson.

    They’ve, Scottish media, spent so long trying to brainwash their readers with the too wee, poor and stupid myth that they’ve probably reached the point where they’ve convinced themselves of that. Many in the English (born) media no doubt carry life-long ingrained stereotypical opinions of / attitudes towards the Scots so the shock of this will be even greater for them.

    This has been a bit of a reminder for them that the Scots, in the main, are highly intelligent, are well known for being militant and more than anything brave. This is a wake up call for them. Nicola Sturgeon (and her supporters) means business. She means what she says. Look out.

  248. Dan Huil says:

    Didn’t see QT but from what I can glean from the internet it seems the audience, or a loud part of it, were not slow in parading its brexit bias. This is good in that it shows Scotland just how far political and social attitudes between Scotland and England are drifting further and further apart. This so-called united kingdom continues to disintegrate. Also good.

  249. Chic McGregor says:

    Legerwood, Socrates

    Wife and I were watching the news on the telly when the caption ‘SNP Conference: Edelstone’ came up.

    We looked at each other, synchronised “Eh?”

    I typed SECC into google to see if there was a district of Glasgow we had never heard of. I assumed someone had misheard Finnieston.

    There wasn’t. However, what also came up was that there is an SECC in Chicago with an Edelstone building.

    We had a good laugh, but as I write this we cannot remember if it was the BBC or Sky news.

  250. Jim says:


    Agree boycotting would be counter-productive, but I think anybody in the SNP being interviewed by the likes of Andrew Neil needs to be more combative. Not calling him out on his rudeness and derisive comments makes us look weak and ineffectual. Get tore into the smug, arrogant git.

  251. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Harry Mcaye

    “On the stickers. I made a very modest contribution and I can’t remember what the deal was. Do I get sent any? Fair enough if I don’t, it was only £3.”

    Unless you sent your full contact details (i.e. delivery address) to me then you will not have been placed on the list of distributors and, as such, will not receive any of the stickies.

    I spent about two weeks here on WoS main board seeking distributors for the stickies and, happily, many responded. If you didn’t respond to my recruiting drive then I’m afraid you won’t be receiving any as they have all now been sent out to the distributors who did respond. They’re now all over Scotland.

    I do, however, have loads of stickies from the first batch the printer sent which were faulty. You can only peel the label from the edge (there’s no split in the paper) and it’s a bloody nightmare. If you’d like any of these difficult ones then let me know and I’ll get a batch sent off to you. That goes for anyone else who would like any of the faulty labels. Drop me an email to: peepthebeeb [at] (No spaces or square brackets and use the @ instead of ‘at’).

    For Scotland – Aye!

  252. Chic McGregor says:

    PS on re-inspection that is some organisation called the SECC in Chicago which was using the Edelstone building in Chicago University.

  253. ScottishPsyche says:

    Despite the treatment of the SNP and other Independence campaigners on the BBC and Sky, it would be a mistake not to engage. ‘We asked for a comment/ We invited them but no one was available…’, would be the mantra with all the implications this would have. Yoons would infer something to hide.

    The points have to be made firmly countering the ‘black hole’, ‘day job’, ‘once in a generation’ nonsense that prevails. Tasmina AS was better today than I have seen her in countering Adam Boulton on Sky’s tired old assertions. More like that. Achievements have to be emphasised and comparisons with rUK driven home when false statements are made.

  254. galamcennalath says:

    Bob Mack says:

    ”That is why she [Nicola] is running the indy 2 push in tandem with Brexit As the economy unravels, increase for independence will definitely grow”

    Yes. The twin approach has the potential of a Win or Win.

    It has to be shown that everything which possibly be done to find a solution short of Indy has been tried. That way if IndyRef2 comes, it is something which has been forced on Scotland by an uncaring, thoroughly incompetent, disinterested Westminster. The perfect position to start the campaign, make more converts, and WIN Indy.

    There is another scenario. I don’t think it will work out this way, but there must be the possibility that the hard right is beaten by everyone else including moderate Tories. Then either Brexit is abandoned altogether (this would take a crisis and an election probably), or Brexit takes a very soft form like Norways with full ESM. Then Indy would be hard to sell. However, the worst outcomes have been avoided and it’s a WINish. Then the campaign for Indy continues at slow but steady pace.

  255. Proud Cybernat says:

    Where there’s a May, there’s a Will.

  256. Sheryl Hepworth says:

    Stuart I personally think it’s time to fund a new Wee Blue (& black) Book!!!

  257. Nana says:

    @K1 Here yesterday’s opening speech at the conference.

  258. Soutron says:

    I agree Bob Mack, the status quo is long gone. We all knew it was rubbish but now the average punter can see Britain isn’t the bastion of stability it painted as pre-indy ref 1.

    I’m sure we’ll still hear a lot of deficit-related shite from the unionists over the coming campaign, conveniently ignoring their own failings (with the BBC there to cover their backs).

    One of the keys to winning this is changing the narrative that the neoliberals have created. Deficits are perfectly normal and acceptable. A sovereign currency issuing state is not subject to the same financial rules as a household.

    *clumsy meataphor alert* Think of the currency in circulation (numbers in accounts as well as notes and coins) as the oil that keeps the cogs of the economy turning. Too little and things grind to a halt (no demand). Too much and things spin out of control (inflation).

    Taxation is not a prerequisite of spending.

    Taxation and spending are the governments levers of control. Low tax and/or increased spending increases demand, high tax and/or low spending curbs demand. The deficit is merely the buffer.

    Whatever deficit is required to keep things ticking along nicely i.e. controlled inflation and low underemployment/unemployment is the correct deficit.

    The obvious caveat here is that you need to have full control of your fiscal policy and issue your own currency (so not Greece, and not Scotland at present).

  259. Colin West says:

    Petra @ 11:43am

    Agreed, If it was in Westminister’s Power to refuse a second Referendum, they would already have done so instead of bleating on about uncertainty. Note the amount of begging from various Tories and other Unionists for Nicola to take a Referendum off the table.

    To me, that would indicate that they know full well that they can’t stop Scotland from holding a referendum whenever they feel like it.

  260. heedtracker says:

    This tory chump’s on Liggers Neil’s BBC Politics show right now, for the balance, as in very far right and very very far right.

    BBC going UKOK mental as anything at us today too. At least any pretence at impartial unbiased BBC has totally gone now, especially with the BBC Breakfast tories showing Sturgeon the escaped gorilla this morning. Oh how they laughed.

    Iain Martin ?@iainmartin1 4h4 hours ago
    Eventually England will demand referendum in England just so don’t have to listen to Sturgeon on radio/TV chuntering on about independence

  261. muttley79 says:

    O/T Dick Gaughan used to post on here, I don’t know if he still does. I was just reading this article on Counterpunch:

    Get well soon.

  262. Kevin Meina says:

    Well Daily Politics decide to show the balls slot 24hrs after it actually happened wonders never cease.

  263. Sassenach says:

    Thanks to all who commented on my previous post re. QT last night.

    I am swayed by some of these comments, and would think the ideal solution (although obviously impossible) would be to delegate Alex for every appearance!!

    He did exceptionally well, but I am not sure a ‘lesser experienced’ SNP panellist could have stayed so calm, with possible calamitous result.

  264. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Harry McAye –

    I can send you some of my batch (say, 60?) if you send me your contact details:

  265. Papadox says:

    Ruth the mooth and May are so so sure that the people of Scotland would reject independence. If that were true they would be pushing SG for a referendum so they could “try” and put independence off the agenda for many years. They are playing a double bluff.
    If Westminster thinks that it can deny the Scots their Voice when they demand it. Then we will just have to Waite and see how that turns out?

  266. K1 says:

    Ye’re an absolute star Nana…many thanks 😉

  267. Dorothy Devine says:

    I’ll bet the bastards at the BBBC did that deliberately – not only is it a contrived insult ,it is an easy way to detract from the speech and the conference .

    Lots of fucking fun was it BBBC?

    Credibility down the tubes.

  268. Glamaig says:

    OT can anybody help me with this. Was talking to a guy although devastated at the Leave result and convinced the UK is now fukcd wont vote for independence because he thinks the EU wouldnt let us in because Spain would block it, and indy Scotland would be even worse off outside both UK and EU.

    Ive seen this argument about Spain blocking us debunked on here, but cant remember how it works?

  269. heedtracker says:

    Graun loves Nicola the Gorilla too.

    The BBC Breakfast host Naga Munchetty was telling viewers they would be joined by Sturgeon later in the programme when footage of a gorilla that escaped from its enclosure at London zoo was shown on screen.

    Her co-presenter Charlie Stayt quickly apologised for the gaffe. He said: “I’m sorry, we have very clearly run the wrong pictures over that particular sequence, my apologies there.”

    It looked like the pair of them were well up for the crack, so the tory BBC liars even lie about their SNP bad gags, shock.

  270. I have come to believe that the medias aim with all their lies and insults to the people of Scotland that just goes on day after day is they are trying to provoke some of the Scots into hitting back with violence maybe to form an S.R.A. And then they could have an excuse to occupy Scotland by force I mean when was the last time you heard anything good about Scotland on news night Scotland all you ever hear from them is bad news all the time they never let up it just goes on night after night .,no there is a hidden agenda behind all this but I would say to them beware what you wish for

  271. heedtracker says:

    “If Scotland leaves, they’re going to take their oil with them.” Economist Jim Rogers, asked about sterling disastrous drop by BBC r4 Lunchtime toryboy , but its only going to get worse for years, because of UKOK giant debt, says Roger. He certainly seems to think Scotland is going to “leave” too.

    Proud Scottish but obedient retainer Horatio Nelson, says the junk pound is really good.

    “The plight of the pound will, without doubt, be watched in horror by that lucky handful of people who are in the habit of doing their Christmas shopping in Manhattan.” explains Horatio Nelson, in between regular hourly vote toryboy slots in Broadcasting House.

  272. Liz g says:

    Glamaig @ 1.02
    Couldn’t say where you will find what you need on here.
    But Wee Ginger Dug ,who has lived and worked in Spain has written some really good commonsense stuff about it.
    Try in his archives.
    Sorry I can’t do links,but keep checking as someone probably will stick one up for you.

  273. harry mcaye says:

    Ian Brotherhood – Thanks but I’ve taken Proud Cybernat up on his offer of taking some of the rejects off his hands.

  274. Hoss Mackintosh says:


    The Spain veto propaganda it is a myth and if you try to find anything real links about it you cannot. Just propaganda from UK MSM – but very insidious it is too and it must be countered.

    WGD is very good at explaining it. The only Spain veto will be on the UK Brexit talks and the important issue of Gibraltar.

    and this one too – Even the Spanish FM saying UK will split over Brexit – how does that happen if Spain vetos it?

    Please pass these onto your friend.

  275. DerekM says:

    @ Blair Paterson

    Yep though i think they should be more worried about this happening in their own back yard.

  276. heedtracker says:

    Graun liggers in action in Glasgow-

    31m ago
    No 10 suggests May would oppose a second independence referendum

    Lots of UKOK waffle, then

    “May has also made clear in her own words (see 9.42am) her opposition to a second referendum. But she has not said explicitly that she would never allow a second referendum, and her spokeswoman did not say that this morning either.”

  277. Petra says:

    Nana thanks for the links in particular the two at 10:31am. The Genocide article is excellent …. a ‘must read’ and the BBC bias video is interesting especially the first part with Nick Robinson cracking up in relation to a sign that’s been placed behind his back. His behaviour, body language and facial expression really gives you some insight into the mindset of the man. At one point he actually reminded me of the time Peter Tobin lashed out at a photographer.


    Andrew Neil well and truly met his match today in Mike Russell, our SNP Brexit negotiator. Not only did Mike quash every point that Neil made he managed to cram in a great deal of additional really constructive information: The latter being a skill that many SNP politicians should make a point of developing, ASAP. He also corrected Neil’s comments about 30 odd per cent of voters wanting Independence by telling Neil to check out the latest Herald poll that shows we’re over the mark now. That shut Neil up. When Neil said we may have to accept the Euro Mike said something to the effect that with the way things are going with the pound (and it might get much worse) it might be a positive move but that subject was for later consideration. I would imagine that some of the points that Mike made may also have put the wind up a number of English viewers. Many more I’m sure must have been wishing they had more politicians of the calibre of Mike Russell at Westminster representing them.

    As someone mentioned earlier they showed footage of the ball in the EU versus UK barrels. When the EU one was chockablock full the UK barrel contained five balls. A number of people were interviewed and their comments were good …. “had journalists placed the five balls in the barrel? ” Ha, ha. ….. to the question do you think Westminster will allow a Referendum? “The Scottish people will decide” and one wee 10 / 11 year old really did us proud. Sorry can’t remember what she said exactly now.

    Andrew Neil went on to discuss the Independence case with a couple on the panel (one half decent re. SNP / Scotland) and raised the ‘will Scotland be accepted by the EU’ and ‘they’ll have to accept the Euro’ lies once again. He never gives up.

  278. heedtracker says:

    BBC Breakfast’s hilarious Nicola the Gorilla gag this morning reported by PETA.

    Its Kumbuka the Gorilla BBC Breakfast, not Nicola The Gorilla. Easy mistake for BBC gimps to make though.

  279. One_Scot says:

    When even the Yoons own polling figures are coming back with figures like this,

    it really is time to give up the day job.

  280. Glamaig says:

    cheers. The first WGD article there got me thinking –

    If Scotland had voted Leave and England had voted Remain, and Scotland then voted for indy, England would doubtless have continued in the EU just as it was. They would no doubt have still called themselves the UK. So why cant Scotland?

    If ever there was proof of the way the Scotland’s status in the Union is perceived by the UK establishment thats it right there.

  281. Petra says:

    Glamaig I reckon the best piece of evidence to quash that argument is the Guy Verhofstadt comments (on video) where he states “no obstacle” to us getting in. I’m on my IPad right now but will post it when I get home later or for that matter someone else may do so.

    Hope it helps.

  282. Clapper57 says:

    You have to hand it to the BBC QT . There they were in London last night, London who voted 75% to remain in EU , and yet they STILL managed to get a very ‘vocal’ LEAVE audience, what’s the chances eh ?

    Then the usual flippant ‘Scottish question’ with piss poor analogy asked by someone from whom I certainly did not ‘feel the love’ from, in her blatant trolling style of question on what should be a serious constitutional issue but treated ,as per , with contempt.

    The audience ,of course , commenting on possible Indy 2 were only too happy to reinforce the lie that we, Scotland, are too wee and too poor for independence.

    Is there any f**king English BBC QT audience able to actually name ANY benefits that Scotland brings to this union ? Do they never think that by always being so negative, patronising and downright trolling towards Scotland that perhaps this may be the very reason why some Scots want independence ? Why do they treat us as if we are shit on their shoes and our needs and hopes should just be wiped away because they see it as THEM subsidising us the sweaty Jocks, they ,the English, are in charge so know your place Jocks ? Why are there English people who continue to belittle us and yet pretend to NOT know why on earth we would want to leave the union ? Why do they not TRY to comprehend our aspirations to be an independent nation ?

    It’s not as if they actually seem to f**king care is it ? When you listen to and read the constant barrage of negativity they seem to associate with Scotland and it’s people then why not just f**king butt out and let only Scots debate and decide this argument? Why do people who know f*ck all and who care f*ck all about us feel they have the right to comment on OUR destiny ? Don’t even get me started on Scots for the Union because some of them are the MOST detrimental to Scotland’s contributions within this union and ability/right to self government.

    There are endless questions such as the above and also numerous examples of the contemptible treatment Scotland receives from the media , so called celebrities , ordinary English people , politicians and sadly even from Scots themselves. I think if these people are pretending to be oblivious to WHY some Scots want independence then it would justified in calling these people out for the LIARS they really are.

    Who wants to stay where they are clearly not really wanted ? Why remain with a country who barely tolerates us and who frequently reprimands us should we have the audacity to challenge the same tired old lies consistently churned out by ‘churnalists’ et al.

    I admit it must be embarrassing for them to have a country within their beloved Union that wants to leave and not want to be ruled by an oppressive English WM parliament aka dictatorship, however they SHOULD be embarrassed because they argue that we should just keep accepting the status quo while they actively diminish any benefits, we as a nation , bring to this dysfunctional union.

    This is definitely a delusional partner we share this union with , not only do they want their ‘cake and eat it’ with the EU but they expect the same with us too, while all the while they insult both the EU countries and us and yet expect unwarranted loyalty and fairness to be bestowed upon them, and why ? Because England is Great Britain and Great Britain expects . Ain’t that the real f**king truth and is that not the REAL problem with them and the REAL problem with us still being in this union.

  283. heedtracker says:

    Andrew Neil well and truly met his match today in Mike Russell, our SNP Brexit negotiator.

    I thought it was because Neil eased off the monstering a bit today, especially the full on savaging Angus Robertson got from him yesterday.

    Its a toryboy BBC tactic, slam in hard one interview like yesterday’s, tone it down a bit the next. Or they play good beeb bad beeb liggers.

    Russell could maybe have said to Neil that Scot’s oil and gas is still there, at least $1.5 tn, it is currently in recession but why is neighbour Norway oil sector also not in recession Neil, maybe because its not run by red and blue tory Westminster and Scotland or Holyrood has never had any control of the terrible burden of the not Scottish oil and gas industry.

  284. Proud Cybernat says:

    I Want to Break Free…

  285. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heed @ 13:20,

    I heard that report on the radio too. How refreshing to hear a comment from someone who avowedly had no stake in the issue, a genuine neutral.

    What really got me was his comment that the pound was heading for parity with the dollar, “especially if Scotland becomes independent and takes its oil with it”. Which he certainly seemed to expect – no BT bluffery there.

    One in the eye for the goons who keep telling us we’re “subsidy junkies”.

  286. Nana says:

    The EU and new states

    Unveiling Internal Enlargement

  287. Nana says:

    Notice the title of the cabinet ,War cabinet almost half of which are brexiteers. No room for the Scottish or Welsh or N1 reps, will attend as ‘required’

    Things can only get worse

    But never mind Boris can get roaring drunk

    Government spends £47,236 stocking Boris’ wine cellar

    October 13, 2016 9:18 PM

    Wine and spirits worth £47,236 were quaffed out of the government’s vast wine cellar last year, new figures reveal.

    Guests, foreign visitors and dignitaries drank thousands of litres from the 33,669 bottles of wines and spirits held by the government.

    A written statement made by Foreign Office minister Baroness Anelay of St Johns said the total cost of the bottles drunk was £47,236 in 2015-16.

    The total cost value of the wine cellar is a mind boggling £809,990 while in the shops the cellar would cost you an estimated £3.257 million.

  288. Nana says:

    Got that in the wrong order

    Notice the title of the cabinet ,War cabinet almost half of which are brexiteers. No room for the Scottish or Welsh or N1 reps, will attend as ‘required’

    Things can only get worse

  289. heedtracker says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    14 October, 2016 at 2:08 pm
    heed @ 13:20,

    That guys a famous American investor and from outside of this union, it must look like nearly the end of the union, if only because there is no logic in Scotland being run by its neighbour, hell bent on isolationist, anti xenophobic rule Britannia bullshit.

    So he’s probably hedging less and less. Its interesting to listen to though, as not Scots oil is always used as a giant weapon of NO, none left, in decline, and especially by the BBC. It is one of their great frauds on Scotland right enough, this no oil left con.

  290. yesindyref2 says:

    So BMG is still getting away with having complete garbage on its webpage: “However, once the results to the follow-up Brexit question were factored back into the original question, the results suggest that up to 43% may back a second referendum, and 42% would be against. Some 15% remain undecided^.

    whereas the correct figure is 44% may back a second referendum, and 35% would be against, with 21% now undecided instead of the original 5%, once the hard Brexit is factored in. The 12% claim is also wrong or

    I intend to keep posting this, here, there, everywhere, until they admit it, or slyly update their page.

    They’re not getting away with it, and if neccessary, I’ll complain to the MRD and aks them to investigate false reporting. From BMG: “We are a Market Research Society Company Partner and are fully compliant with the MRS Code of Conduct.

    It’s easily proven even without burrowing into data tables – their one page summary is obviously inconsistent:

    Of those against a second independence referendum, just 12% said a ‘hard Brexit’ might change their mind, but three quarters (75%) said a ‘Hard Brexit’ should not result in another independence referendum (13% did not know).

    They totally ignored the 13% who CHANGED from being against, to “don’t know”.

  291. Joannie says:

    @Glamaig – there’s no evidence that the Spanish ever did intend to veto an indy Scotland. The two people who made that threat were – José Barroso, a former Portuguese PM, and Ruari Quinn, a former Irish Finance Minister. Neither of those two are, or ever were, empowered to speak for Spain. They simply had no right to threaten Scotland with another country using their veto in the first place.

    It might also be worth pointing out to your friend that all EU countries try and avoid the veto at all costs. They always try and negotiate around an issue first, the veto is seen as an absolute last resort and rarely used. So even if Spain was hostile towards an indy Scotland in the EU, (which I doubt they are now even if they were before), it doesn’t follow that they would veto. They might be tough negotiators, and a Scottish government might have to swallow hard and distance themselves from all things Catalonian to reassure Madrid, but its unlikely that they would veto Scotland any more than they did Slovakia or the Czech Republic both of whom also split themselves from being a unified country.

  292. mike d says:

    Agree with Peter maculloch 10.58 am. If Scotland is so poor,so financially in the sh*t,Then who did it to us. Because we certainly never done it to ourselves.

  293. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Clapper57 @ 13:57,

    Wow, I expect you feel a whole lot better having got that off your chest!

    We’ve all been there, my friend. And remain just as puzzled as you about this incredible English dual-personality on the issue: we’re a contemptible drain on their largesse yet they somehow resent and resist us wanting to bail.

    Among the general public, a toxic mix of loads of ignorance plus a dash of unacknowledged exploitation. But sometimes there’s a brief flash of illumination. I saw one btl comment somewhere recently complaining that the Scots were selfish! That was a new tack for me. There’s at least one person out there who has a glimmer of where the real natural wealth is located!

  294. gerry parker says:

    Nicola is getting a hard time from the media.

    Heard her being talked over this morning, when the gabby presenter pushed the 15 billion deficit garbage, then cut off before she could reply to an imbecilic interviewer at lunchtime who thought we all feared we would end up like Greece (well, he did anyway, so everyone else must too)

    Well done Nicola, the truth will out.

  295. Macart says:

    Something for folk to consider when viewing twatter or encountering proud buts on the interwebby.

    Next time you come across some bonehead who insists that the Scottish Government hasn’t honoured the result of the 2014 referendum? Simply ask them a few simple questions:

    1. Do you believe that governments should stick by their pledges then? Yes/No
    2. Do you believe that only the losing side should honour its pledges? Yes/No
    3. What part of UK elections, Smith Commission farce, Scotland Bill debates and two fucking years of waiting for better together/HMGs pledges to appear seems like lack of respect, non acceptance or non participation to you then?

    Rant done. 😡

  296. mike cassidy says:

    Robert J Sutherland 2.08

    Here for an insight into the mind of Jim Rogers.

    Marijuana is becoming legal in more countries around the world, for medicinal purposes and also recreationally, so I’ve invested in a marijuana company in Colombia. Colombia has the perfect climate, soil and rain for growing the plant. If the medicinal studies about marijuana are right then it’s going to change everything

  297. yesindyref2 says:

    If anyone else wants to put in a complaint to the MRS about BMG, you are of course welcome. The more the merrier!

    Ah, here we go, got to look well down before stuff about actually reporting:

    Analysis and reporting of findings
    Members must ensure that conclusions disseminated by them are clearly and adequately supported by the data.

    Clear breach by BMG. There may be others, no idea.

    Typical eh, you have to complain first to the villain of the piece:

    In the first instance you should contact the research organisation directly. Members and Company Partners are obliged to assist in the resolution of complaints.

  298. Smallaxe says:

    Petra says:
    14 October, 2016 at 1:41 pm
    “Nana thanks for the links in particular the two at 10:31am.”

    Petra,I agree wholeheartedly with your good self, I read pledged and donated to this excellent and very important cause.

    Nana is the Wind beneath our Wings!

    Peace Always

  299. Nana says:


    James Kelly has written on his blog about the poll

  300. call me dave says:

    Yeah read that a wee while ago Nana.

    SoS for Scotland Mundell (as required) in the War Cabinet… 🙂

    Well no need to worry then. FGS!

  301. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks I was hoping he would, I’ll read it.

    Another way is to say, that’s all very well, but what do they think the 62% in Scotland to stay in the EU will think?

  302. DerekM says:

    Cant blame old Kumbuka the Gorilla for escaping he is a foreigner after all plus he heard a rumour that his agent had signed him up for a photo shoot with a certain conservative that likes straddling poor animals.

  303. Training Day says:

    I know there are notions abroad that scare stories will not avail our opponents to the same extent in indyref2, but I worry. Not the ‘your first class stamps will be stolen by aliens at border posts in a windless Scotland’ schtick used in indyref1, but this time the relentless bombardment of the ‘Scotland is an economic basket case’ lie.

    Take the BBC yesterday. To my certain knowledge the basket case lie was battered home on 5 separate occasions, namely on the Daily Politics, Radio 4, the ‘main’ news, Reporting Scotland and Question Time, virtually unchallenged and unfiltered (the only challenge came from Salmond on QT). Doubtless there were other occasions. It has enthusiastically been picked up today by, amongst others, Channel 4 and Sky, and the uniformity of the MSM will ensure it is repeated in virtually all outlets.

    It is a simple and straightforward task for, say, the BBC to continue to disseminate the lie through staged vox pops (as they did yesterday), ‘independent think tanks’ (like the Taxpayers Alliance, arf) and through ‘experts’ up to their oxters in hidden agendas (list of said ‘experts’ too numerous to detail).

    We sorely need to get on the front foot with the BBC in particular, and call them out. Two years ago I asked a SNP MSP, who was scathing about the BBC in branch meetings, what was the strategy to deal with them? His response was ‘we need to get our message out’. Aye, we ken that, pal, but what of the leviathan of propaganda in our way?

    I remain optimistic that we can and will win the day, but dear lord, confrontation with the BBC is inevitable and cannot be postponed much longer.

  304. cearc says:

    Not sure that the Beeb will be asking Jim Rogers back for a while! Interesting interview and he was clearly trying to be tactful about UK prospects.

    Meanwhile, the vultures are not merely circling but swooping.

    ‘…But he said its activism strategy included seeking targets where shareholder value could be boosted through a sale of the group, or spin-offs or sell-offs of units, and that he saw particular opportunities for this in Britain. ..’

    Not looking at all good for the Great British Revival.

  305. Petra says:

    @ Macart …. EU Link

    Good Macart. I hadn’t seen that one, Ponsonby, before but it’s similar to another that was posted on here previously where he mentions that we wouldn’t have to wait in a queue or words to that effect.


    @ Heedtracker at 2:03pm …. Andrew Neil

    No I don’t think that he was any different today Heedtracker. I just think that Mike Russell kept him on his toes and actually answered, got through, more questions than say Angus Robertson did yesterday which included a ‘throw in’ reference to our economy. Angus Robertson was asked repeatedly about our lousy economy yesterday and said nought: Unlike Tommy Sheppard who put Nick Robinson in his place recently.

    I reckon Neil uses “the slam in hard” tactic when he knows he’s got a weak opponent or if ‘factual’ issues are going well and truly against them / their Party, but backs off when he’s met his match.

    Neil often presents complex questions hoping you won’t get round to answering them all. He uses all sorts of tactics such as breaking in, talking over and so on to disrupt the train of thought. He’s a real fly man. A professional, Union propagandist. As to Russell quoting so many facts and figures well time could be against doing so on the other hand I’ve often thought if it was me, and time was short, I’d just throw in something like “you know fine and well that Scotland is far wealthier than England, Neil” or “these statistics relate to a Scotland in the Union not an Independent Scotland” to try to get him to discuss our economy further. As to my latter ‘answer’ he’d probably just say “no doubt an Independent Scotland would be even worse off” and then change the subject. I suppose it’s easier said than done, lol.

    All in all I was impressed with Mike Russell today.

  306. Robert Peffers says:

    @Glamaig says: 14 October, 2016 at 1:02 pm:

    “OT can anybody help me with this.”


    ” … Ive seen this argument about Spain blocking us debunked on here, but cant remember how it works?”.

    In the first place the Spanish Government have, several times, categorically stated that they will NOT block Scotland from membership. Their claim is that their own internal dispute with Catalonia, (which has been part of Spain since the civil war in the late 1930s), is nothing like that of the Scotland/United Kingdom dispute.

    Secondly neither Spain, nor any other EU member state, could block Scotland as a member state as the people of Scotland are EU Citizens and the EU has no rules, laws or other mechanisms to expel any EU citizens from their citizenship.

    Indeed the EU rules & laws state that it is a statutory duty upon all member states to assist any EU citizen who asks for help at any EU Member states embassy throughout the World.

    The legal fact is that the United Kingdom is the, “Member State”, but the United KINGDOM is exactly that – a kingdom – it is thus not either a single country nor is it a single kingdom.

    It is legally a bipartite kingdom with only two equally sovereign legal partners. Just like a marriage between two people when a bipartite partnership ends the two partners are returned to the, “Status Quo Ante”, (The status as before the partnership).

    Thus. as far as the EU is concerned, as long as the partnership remains intact then they deal with the partnership, (the UK), as the member state and not with either individual partner. When the partnership ends they have to legally treat each of the two partners as equal members states but with each renegotiating their terms of membership as the terms were with the union and the union is a bipartite union of equals.

    The truth is, as I keep posting on Wings, that Scotland cannot leave the United Kingdom and a united kingdom still exist. When a two member partnership of equals ends BOTH partners return to their previous single status.

    It is only the Kingdom of England’s propaganda that claims the United Kingdom parliament is that of the former three country Kingdom of England. It just is not legally so.

    This means several quite obvious things :-

    The daft claims of such as Mundell that, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland & renamed the Kingdom of England as, “The United Kingdom”, is, “Pie in the sky, by and by, for you and I”. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back their utterly idiotic claim up.

    There is no legislation, no treaty evidence and no legal basis for it whatsoever. The only documentary evidence supports the two equally sovereign partners view as does all legal and legislative rulings.

    The totally stupid claims that two only equally sovereign independent kingdoms united in 1706/7 by a written Treaty will end with only one such equally sovereign kingdom still remaining as a United Kingdom is idiotic.

    The lies that the unionist cabal at Westminster are attempting to convince the World at large of are really so ludicrous as to be laughable.

    They rely upon the World at large wrongly believing that the Kingdom of England that signed the Treaty of Union was already a United Kingdom of England, Wales & Ireland and thus should continue as an rUK.

    The legal facts do not support that claim because that Kingdom of England, (which contained England, Wales and Ireland), in 1706/7 was formed by the Kingdom of England annexing the other two under the laws prevailing in all three Kingdom of England countries before 1688 when their laws were all based upon, “Divine Right of Kings”, and not by treaty or agreement.

    In other words the Kingdom of England legally took the other two sovereign states over by military force according to the laws of that time and remained, “The Kingdom of England”.

    There was no legal, “United Kingdom of England, Wales and Ireland”, to still exist after the actual, “United Kingdom”, partners split up and that is the lie they base their claims upon.

  307. yesindyref2 says:

    Forecasts for currency (pound) too optimistic

    Pain in the butt, I thought the price I was quoted last Friday was at the overnight rate after the glitch bounced it down so waited till it came up. I didn’t listen 🙁 they’d told me it was at 1.24 – the bounced back price, so this week it’ll cost me another £20.

    Think I’ll just get it and stop playing currency speculator, it’s not my business!

  308. Petra says:

    Glamaig don’t forget to mention to your friend that Scotland with 1% of the EU population contributes 60% of the oil, 2nd largest gas contributor etc, etc.

    I reckon, taking that into account alone, that the EU will be desperate to hang onto us, just like the Union for the same type of reasons. I also reckon they’d want to hang onto us just to scunner Westminster, oh, and shed a more positive light on the EU …. some countries want to stay / join.

  309. Proud Cybernat says:

    “All in all I was impressed with Mike Russell today.”

    Well, you can be bloody certain no one in the Colonial Media will be interviewing Mike Russell again any time soon.

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    Reason I post that by the way is it’s a real life problem being faced by businesses throughout Scotland like mine that do imports in any way, and perhaps too like me, they’re dithering around, reading sterling reports, watching stupid Westminster, even delaying imports and running short or out, instead of getting on with their own businesses. It’s something for all of us to be aware of while campaigning. For this particular import of mine, there’s no or very little benefit in exports, it’s mostly used for products sold within the UK, though I don’t actually need it for 2 or 3 months. Think I’ll just take the hit – and get on with my own business!

  311. Macart says:


    Another factlet that’ll focus some folks attention right enough. 🙂

    Ably represented by the FM here:

    “So allow me to reflect on who we are in Scotland today. We are more than five million men and women, adults, young people and children, each with our own life story and family history, and our own hopes and dreams.

    “We are the grandchildren and the great grandchildren of the thousands who came from Ireland to work in our shipyards and in our factories.

    “We are the 80,000 Polish people, the 8,000 Lithuanians, the 7,000 each from France, Spain, Germany, Italy and Latvia. We are among the many from countries beyound our shores that we are so privileged to have living here amongst us.

    “We are the more than half a million people born in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who have chosen to live here in Scotland. We are the thousands of European students studying at our universities and our colleges. We are the doctors and nurses from all across our continent and beyond who care for us daily in our National Health Service.

    “Whether we have lived here for generations or are new Scots, from Europe, India, Pakistan, Africa and countries across the globe we are all of this and more. We are so much stronger for the diversity that shapes us.

    “We are one Scotland and we are simply home to all of those who have chosen to live here, that is who and what we are.”

    Folk from all over the globe who may have a say in the outcome of a second indyref. People that May and her appalling government seem hell bent on marginalising and alienating (in every sense).

    There has been a material change. There has been a grievous dereliction of HMG in their delivery of pledges and assurances made during the last indyref. HMG and Better Together ARE responsible.

    There are consequences in the REAL WORLD for those circumstances. If those who STILL support the union have a problem with those circumstances… then you know where to look and it is NOT in the direction of the Scottish Government or the YES movement.

    The YES movement and the SG did not ask to be in this position we find ourselves in today, but it IS where we are and it needs dealt with. Two legal referendum results which are constitutionally incompatible. A circle that is not likely to be squared without a third ballot for the Scottish electorate.

  312. Joannie says:

    I agree, Petra, there will certainly be intangible, psychological reasons why EU leaders will want Scotland to leave England and come with us. To put it bluntly it will be a way of saying Up yer arse England from The Rest of Europe.

  313. Ken500 says:

    The Spain and Catalonia want to stay in the EU.

    So does Scotland. It is England/Wales who want to take Scotland out of the EU. 62% in Scotland voted to Remain.

    In the IndyRef EU citizens and 16/17 year olds got a vote. In Spain EU citizens can only vote in local and EU elections. Not in regional, national or Referendums. In Catalonia 2.2 million voted to have a Referendum, out of a electorate of 5million. A population of 7.5million.

    In the UK 17 million voted to Leave the EU out of a electorate of 45 million. A population of 62million. EU citizens resided in the UK did not get to vote. No taxation without representation.

  314. Black Joan says:

    Mike Russell is on Colonial Media’s Any Questions tonight at 8pm, Radio UKOK4. Alongside Viceroy Fluffy. From Glasgow.

    Chaired by Dimbleby Minor. Audience and questions carefully vetted, nae doot.

  315. heedtracker says:

    @ Heedtracker at 2:03pm …. Andrew Neil

    No I don’t think that he was any different today Heedtracker.

    Petra, there’s much to interviewing than questions though, especially with Neil. We saw it in 2014 with full on BBC hysteria and every SNP treated like a boxing opponent on the ropes, getting pounded.

    Neil only sticks out as he’s clearly BBC’s head tory honcho, so he’s on a lot more than anyone else. That tory delight Nic Robinson’s the same. Yesterday Neil was well up for a fight, watch his hard man body language, his pace was a lot faster, he was absurd too because he was mocking, watch the cameras working on him, watch his torygirl side kick Jo’s reaction. Oh Neil you’re so hard and alpha male, stick it to him. It takes a lot of experience to cope with that kind of BBC toryboy interrogation which ultimately ends with tears, mine:D

  316. heedtracker says:

    Chaired by Dimbleby Minor. Audience and questions carefully vetted, nae doot.

    Last night’s BBC Question Time comedy, clearly had a tory Britnat gruesome threesome line up, imperial tory MP, Dimbelby, Glenda SLag of the Heil. As soon as the Scottish question popped up, Toryboy MP read from his list of SNP bad, with the Heil’s Glenda Slag follow through with her Scotland’s shite speech. Salmond scopes it and tries to break their flow, Dimbleby shuts Salmond down. The three of them almost certainly rehearsed their Britnat set up. Does it matter? Probably not, if you’ve got a life, and better things to do than watch the BBC tory farce.

  317. clipper says:

    PROUD CYBERNAT 13th 0ct 5.12

    I sent an email to the peepthebeeb gmail address with name and address details. Bearing in mind that I think it was a couple of weeks ago when you said on here that they’d arrive within a week I was wondering what had happened not having seen any announcements about it.

    If I don’t get them soon I’ll let you know on here.

  318. defo says:

    Tempted to pile into the 7/4 offered on a No next time, it seems like a win/win thingy.
    Pay for a one way ticket to Zurich, or freedom.

  319. yesindyref2 says:

    From what I’m seeing the way Unionists are going about things, best thing we could do is stir them up enough to tackle the 62% themselves.

    We could just sit back and watch :mrgreen:

  320. Breeks says:

    Met two NO voting numpties today. Actually that’s not fair. Neither has access to the internet, and never even heard of Wings. Doesn’t make them numpties, just the circumstances they’re in.

    They were chuckle-whinging about Romanians and Poles taking their jobs. Big mistake saying those things in my earshot, said the spider to the fly… lol

    It’s honestly isn’t derision these folks need, it’s education, and access to a broader front of input than the newspapers and BBC. If only, if only, if only, I’d had a wee blue book on me… I don’t think I converted them, but I did make them squirm a bit the attitude to foreigners, and I reckon if I’d had a Wee blue or black book on me, they’d have read it and then who knows…

    I think it’s a mistake to assume it’s only the old who don’t have access to the internet. There are a lot of folks in manual labour, doing physical jobs, farm labourer, driving, butchers, and folks who just work with their hands, and such like who just don’t come in to physical contact with computers, nevermind accessing the internet and looking for a specific site.

    I need to sort myself out with some Wee Books and keep half a dozen by me for such opportunities in future. These guys will be back… and I hope I’m better prepared.

    Tell you something I do notice… Folks who voted leave are less shy to admit voting leave than they are to admit voting No. No voters don’t like outing themselves and are very ginger about confessing.

    Bottom line is we need a wee black book and wee blue book fired through every letterbox in Scotland. And how about a wee Red Book for the emergency which the next referendum is going to be?

    And how about some big bill boards advertising the Wee Books nationwide? Don’t leave home without one…

    How about a Wee Wings Book phone App too? Get an app for wings so folks without computers can at least get a read? I’m sure there is someone in our great collective who can write a clever wee Wings App…

  321. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @harry mcaye (1.22)


    If you do change yer mind or need some ‘properly’ sticky ones, please hang onto my e-mail address – you can always catch me hinging around O/T.

    Hoots mon! 🙂

  322. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s the way I see it too (veto).

    Spain gets something from Germany who gets something from Italy who get something from Ireland who get something from Holland who get something from Scotland. And it’s the job of the President of the Council / European Council to facilitate this, in back rooms if not at the summits / meetings.

    Then everyone unanimousely smiles 🙂

    Except the UK who mostly don’t seem to know the rules.

  323. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Clipper 4.02 pm

    Send me another email to peepthebeeb (with your contact details). That way we can check:

    a) If your original email to peepthebeeb was received;

    b) If you were placed on the distribution list;

    c) If the stickies were sent to you.

    We’ll take it from there….

  324. Thepnr says:

    Regarding the timing of the next Referendum something worth bearing in mind is that just over a week ago Catalonia’s Parliament announced it would proceed with an Independence Referendum in September 2017 even without the approval of the Government of Spain in Madrid.

    You might wonder why that should matter to Scots but it could matter a lot.

    The vote in Catalonia is certain to be close but does favour a win for the Yes side, well what happens then? Highly unlikely for the Spanish government to just simply accept this result so there will probably be repercussions of some sort.

    This too will apply to Catalonia’s place in the EU, will it be guaranteed? or will they be told they are out and must reapply as an Independent state and new member? I obviously have no idea but can only speculate that if such a scenario arises then Scotland’s place in the EU could also come under threat.

    We may find that a precedent has been set and Scotland too will find itself in the same position as Catalonia and that is on the sidelines until they figure out what to do with us. This to me is a little worrying and I hope the Scottish government are taking these outside influences into account.

    Depending on what happens between now and the end of March when article 50 is supposed to be triggered, it could be that the best strategy is to announce a date for a second referendum right away with as small a campaigning period as could be.

    So who knows June 2017 may even be on the cards. I am no Nostradamus but I certainly feel that Indy2 is a lot closer than many, particularly the BUM, can imagine.

  325. Joannie says:

    Exactly that, yesindyref2. You’ve described it perfectly. And of course there’s at least one country in the EU who would have pragmatic reasons for wanting Scotland in it as well as the psychological reasons, and that’s Ireland. We don’t want Brexit at all because it will damage trade relations with the UK, but since we can’t stop that at least we might be able to keep part of the UK in the EU.

  326. Liz g says:

    OT Reading about us having oil and gas to export.
    It occurred to me.
    When I think of the food & drinks industry,I can think of a dozen items off the top of my head,that are identifiable as Scottish.
    There’s clothing,thats identifiable as Scottish.
    Same for Irish goods.
    But I can’t think of anything like that for England or Wales.
    Apart from Buckfast (and that’s a reason for border’s and tariffs)
    Is it just me ? Do they actually have anything similar?

  327. Thepnr says:

    Personally maybe June 2017 is unrealistic and a bit too early.

    However announcing a Referendum date for later in the year and after article 50 has been triggered say in April, could have a beneficial effect on the turnout for the May 2017 Scottish Council elections.

    Biggest turnout for decades if that is the case, would that benefit the SNP? Your guess is as good as mine.

  328. Robert Peffers says:

    @Petra says: 14 October, 2016 at 1:41 pm:

    ” … Andrew Neil went on to discuss the Independence case with a couple on the panel (one half decent re. SNP / Scotland) and raised the ‘will Scotland be accepted by the EU’ and ‘they’ll have to accept the Euro’ lies once again. He never gives up.”

    Nah! It’s not because he never gives up. Petra. It’s because he doesn’t know enough to come up with anything else. Like many another total idiot he thinks he is the clever one and everyone else are the stupid ones.

    Neil just does whatever the other numpties tell him to do.

    If a BBC producer says, “Shit”, Neil immediately jumps on the shovel.

  329. Legerwood says:

    Lizg @ 4.41pm

    There is Wenslaydale cheese, Stilton, Cumberland Sausage, Cornish pasties … I think all of these and more have brand protection as recognised regional foods via the EU scheme which prevents knock-offs. Same as Arbroath Smokies, Stornoway Black Pudding etc up here.

    Whether that would continue in the event of Brexit is another matter.

  330. Joannie says:

    @Liz g – Marmite? Cheesy Wotsits? Steak and kidney pudding?

    I have to admit I like all of the above.

  331. sandycraig says:

    Any links for the Russell/Neill interview?

  332. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    Bowler hats? 🙂

    Seriously though, there are tones of English products but they tend to have regional associations, such as Wenslydell cheese.

    I would imagine there are lots of yoons who consider Scotland a region of Britain/England. Well they’re wrong.

  333. yesindyref2 says:

    I might add a line to my blog, something like “The veto is rarely used, as member states often barter with each other in a round robin way so they can all reach agreement to a total package”.

    Anyways, the way I see Scotland staying in on 31st March 2019 after a YES vote and negotiations, is about like this.

    The current 7 year EU budget framework agreed runs from 2014-2020 –

    I’d see the EU not wanting to make changes to this in broad strokes, so Scotland would agree that any changes wouldn’t happen until the 2021-2027 one. There would be give and take about contributions, and the UK proportional rebate of about £500 million to Scotland, perhaps halved for the remaining 2 years – or even totally left in for the 2 years as a wee pressie to wonderful Scotland. In exchange for something of course! Probably a bit more susbtantial than a crate of Whisky and some tattie scones.

    Scotland gets a bad fisheries deal via the UK as the UK used that to barter for other things. In theory Scotland could get a vastly greater deal, but should be prepared to go say half-way in exchange for – whatever. There would be similar things to that.

    Including perhaps the CAP uplift which our great and wonderful Secretary of State against Scotland (Carmichael) generously and Better Together agreed should be split 4 ways over the UK rather than coming all to Scotland because it was Scotland that caused the uplift in the first place. It’s poolling and sharing – we pool, the rest shares! Well, we should be prepared for that to be staged in if neccessary.

    I think the Scotland EU negotiating team will actually be extremely reasonable, it is kind of our nature.

  334. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, Wensleydale.

  335. clipper says:


    Just sent another email with contact details to peepthebeeb.

    Got to log off now I’ll check back tomorrow. (If they actually arrive tomorrow am I’ll let you know.)

  336. Robert Peffers says:

    Utterly hilarious!

    I just read an item about a new Google feature called, “Fact Check”. It will add a label next to news items in search results. It will work with other news organisations in Google News.

    Google claims, “It will shine a light on its efforts to divide fact from fiction”. Bang goes the Westminster Establishments many so called News outlets. Wonder what Carmichael, Mundell, et al, thinks about that?

    Of course it just may be that Google wants to give the Rev Stu a helping hand.

  337. Last night on q.t . When they said Scotland was to wee and to poor Alex .,should just have said go and read the Macrone report and if you think it is wrong why did you hide it for 30years?

  338. defo says:

    Re English products. Faggots ?

  339. CameronB Brodie says:

    Glad to see the the clone mindset at full strength. 🙂

  340. defo says:

    Spotted Dick ?

  341. Glamaig says:

    @Petra, Joannie and others, thanks for the answers.

    seems to be quite a few EU politicians have said there would be no problem, but it would be a game-changer if the EU could come out with an official statement before indyref2.

    The guy is not someone I know personally but a plumber who was doing work at the house. Died in the wool Labour, wouldnt vote SNP if you cut his arms off (his words) hate that Nicla Sturgin, hate windmills, BUT hates Tories, despises Westminster, recognises that LAbour have committed suicide and will never get in power again, devastated at the Leave vote, identifies as European not British, knows UK is now screwed. And YET will not vote for independence because thinks we wont get in the EU and would then be even worse off!

    I told him about Verhofstadt’s comment and how he was the chief negotiator on the EU side but he wasnt convinced.

    Im a believer in just dropping wee facts in rather than all out assault so I told him about the average 2-3GW energy transfer from Scotland to England and he opened his eyes wide. I then followed that up with the fact that at least 50% of Scottish domestic electricity (I think it may be more) is now from our renewables and he clearly didnt know that either.

    So hopefully at least a wee doubt or two has been sown.

    There must be alot of Labour voters like that who just need that wee bit of information to tip them into Yes. This is why BBC etc are going all out with 15bn deficit, Greece without the sunshine meme.

  342. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes I agree, just gentle chips away at the block rather than all out assault with a hammer. Drop something in to a conversation and move on. Repeat next time.

    Drip drip drip. Won’t be long now!

  343. Glamaig says:

    …please please will a SNP politician say live on TV, when told yet again about Scotlands 15bn deficit, say, well Andrew, why is the UK trying so hard to keep us at this time of austerity then? That would be 15bn that England could spend on their services.

    Maybe a job for Alec Salmond 🙂

  344. carjamtic says:

    Unconfirmed reports,ASOS the online retailer,are worried Brexit will affect sales,however their best selling Halloween glow in the dark choker necklaces,appear to going down well with young Tory’s,boosting sales online sales this week.

    Lady titsup, reported blew a seal,on finding out,her products will not be displaying the great british badge of honour.



  345. yesindyref2 says:

    If you ever want to archive a page in case you need to be able to produce the original as “evidence”, to show how it was changed days later, use as it keeps history. Whereas the one just overwrites its one page.

    And then it can be a good idea to laave it at least 1 day before referring to the original to show how it was wrong and “deceitfully” change days later.

  346. One_Scot says:

    Yeah, saw the guy who looked like he had just left High school, disrespectfully badgering Nicola about the 15 billion black hole crap.

    They really need to come up with an answer to put that one to bed, or it will be all we hear from now on in.

  347. On last nights q.t. When they said Scotland was to poor Alex., could have said read the Macrone report that proved Scotland independent would be one of the richest country’s in the world and if you do not believe it why did you hide it for33 years?

  348. Fireproofjim says:

    Mike Russell on Daily politics.
    The only place I could find it was on the BBC I player.
    Mike is very good.

  349. Joannie says:

    Just thinking out loud here, well thinking through the keyboard – if a country as rich in natural resources as Scotland is really an economic basket case worse than Greece, as we are told, that hardly says much for Westminster rule now, does it? Maybe you could turn that one back on them – you’ve had like 300 years or so to show you can run Scotland and you’ve reduced it to a basket case, we’d be better off doing it ourselves.

  350. Clapper57 says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    14 October, 2016 at 2:32 pm
    Clapper57 @ 13:57,

    “Wow, I expect you feel a whole lot better having got that off your chest”!

    If only Robert, if only , unfortunately I am on a constant viscous cycle of the following emotions : mild irritation, sheer frustration, many WTF’s to downright rage .

    Then I ‘calm the spam’ and try to remember my blood pressure is not worth raising when all I am really responding to is mass trolling by a bunch of badly bred selfish yoon Cu*t Trolls via their spoken and written words.

    Stop this feckin Union I want to get OUT……ASAP !

    Breathe ….Breathe….Breathe….etc. etc.

    Have a good evening !

  351. Liz g says:

    Ok ok I have led a sheltered life…… thanks everyone who answered .
    But Cheesy Wotsits … really!!! still trying to get over that yin.

    But seriously does anyone else think that Nicola’s speech yesterday was really about subverting any notion Westminster,might have entertained of putting Devo Max on the ballot paper.
    I mean we all knew a referendum was going to be called sooner or later?
    Must admit that was what I thought when watching it but haven’t seen it said anywhere.

  352. yesindyref2 says:

    @Blair Paterson
    Most people aren’t interested in the history of these things. Reminds me of an Indy Ref campaign when a YES campaigner was enthusiastically talking to someone they were trying to convert about Thatcher in the 80s, and what she’d done to Scotland.

    When she finished the young woman just said “I’m 26”.

  353. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sunniva says: 13 October, 2016 at 9:41 pm:

    ” … WE could become rUK, and the inheritor of all the former UK’s international role and status.”

    Nah! I’m getting tired of posting facts here. The title, “United Kingdom”, attests that it is NOT a country. At best it could be called a, “State”, but, as it is composed of several countries it is what it calls itself, “A united kingdom”.

    Furthermore, the Treaty of Union that begat that, “United Kingdom”, only has two signatory kingdoms on the agreement to unite. It is thus a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms. Those two kingdoms are the Kingdom of Scotland, (who signed up to it first), and the Kingdom of England which came complete with Wales & Ireland tagged onto England. Both of which, once sovereign states that the Kingdom of England annexed.

    Thus, with only two legal kingdoms in the union of kingdoms there can be no continued United Kingdom nor can there be a remainder when two equally sovereign partners split up. There simply cannot be an rUK of any kind.

    The stark truth is that the United Kingdom has then disunited and the Status Quo Ante is a return to two independent kingdoms.

    As far as the EU goes they have no known law or rules to expel either an EU member state nor an EU citizen. In fact it is the basis of the EU that all EU member states must protect every other member state and every EU citizen. Any EU citizen can call upon help from any EU member state’s embassy in the World.

    So the EU has NO way to throw any state or citizen out of the European Union. In fact this is the whole point behind the requirement for the United Kingdom to formally request to leave the EU by use of Article 50 see:-

    This is the only way for a state to leave the EU – that is by their own request. Same goes for EU citizens. They cannot be thrown out.

    As the United Kingdom has only two equally sovereign kingdoms as its partners the EU must treat them equally in the event the two split up. Until that point the UK remains as the member state and thus the EU will NOT deal with either the Kingdom of England or the Kingdom of Scotland. What, other than The Kingdom of Scotland, that remains when Scotland leaves is simply the only other partner in the United Kingdom and that is the, (three country), Kingdom of England that signed The Treaty of Union.

  354. Proud Cybernat says:

    Loving us to death…

  355. Foonurt says:

    Rock – yurr shellac’s oan thurr wabbit weiy. Ye waant ah guid needle fur yurr Dansette.

    Oamdae huv thurr lug tae yoan Radio 4, jist afore yoan seevin-ah-cloack [am] news, oan 12th Octoburr. Frichtnin interview fae ah beelin newscaster, in thurr Vice-Chair ah Stoap The War Coalition. Whit side ae urr scratchurr, wiz thoan yin comin fae?

  356. Giving Goose says:

    Don’t know if anyone heard Jeremy Vine Radio 2 this afternoon.

    Brexit Scotland bingo or something similar. Probably on catch up.

    Anyway a male caller from Moray comes on, claims to be ex SNP but departed during indyref due to bullying, vandalism and SNP badness causing division oh and bad debt and oh Greece without the sun etc.

    Unionist lying Troll plant.

  357. Glamaig says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    14 October, 2016 at 3:14 pm

    “Thus. as far as the EU is concerned, as long as the partnership remains intact then they deal with the partnership, (the UK), as the member state and not with either individual partner. When the partnership ends they have to legally treat each of the two partners as equal members states but with each renegotiating their terms of membership as the terms were with the union and the union is a bipartite union of equals.”

    Robert, this is what I was alluding to in my post at 1:50pm.

    Of course you are right, if Scotland ends the Union then the UK does not exist any more.

    BUT imagine this scenario: if the EURef result had been the opposite of what it was i.e. if the UK as a whole voted to Remain, but Scotland voted to Leave, then Scotland voted for independence, theoretically then the UK would not exist.

    BUT I feel sure that the EU would not have seen it that way, and would not have renegotiated anything, but would have continued to recognise the UK as a member, just a bit smaller than it previously was. I dont think they could handle the concept of a member state ceasing to exist!

    Now as we can argue that the 2 partners in the Union are equal, why shouldnt the same apply to Scotland in the current situation?

    WE are the continuing member, just (alot) smaller, and called Scotland instead of UK.

  358. Thepnr says:

    @Giving Goose

    I reckon this is about the best the Britnat establishment can do now to try and stem the flow towards Independence from now on.

    Maybe what we could do is record whatever argument these people are allowed to express via the BBC with no opposing view and then have them rebutted on the Indy supporting websites such as this.

    The truth is I’ve lost count of how many time the same trolls such as Scott Arthur are allowed to express their bias views to the rest of Scotland via Call Kaye but very few pro-indy supporters ever get a word in.

    Record them, take their arguments apart and print them online.

  359. CameonB Brodie says:

    Giving Goose
    It’s the symbolic violence inherent in the system, innit?

    Emancipation starts when you become self-aware and stop conforming to the slave-master’s perspective.

  360. Whitegold says:

    I agree, but there is so much Britnat propaganda 24/7 that we would be constantly firefighting.
    After indyref14, they didn’t let up. They put Britains best minds onto the task of destroying Scottish Nationalism every day, more and more. We let up a little, deflated by defeat obviously while they pressed home their message of hate and doom.
    It’s a difficult one.
    We have no decent platform.

  361. Robert Peffers says:

    @Glamaig says: 14 October, 2016 at 5:08 pm:

    ” … seems to be quite a few EU politicians have said there would be no problem, but it would be a game-changer if the EU could come out with an official statement before indyref2.”

    Is there something wrong with my English Language skills, Glamaig?

    I’m becoming convinced I need to take a refresher course in basic English language for after the number of times I have posted the facts here on Wings it seems to not be clear enough to get the message across.

    The United Kingdom is NOT a single country. It is a United Kingdom formed by ONLY two, equally sovereign, kingdoms. It is called, “It is Called the United Kingdom because that is what it is a kingdom.

    It is called the united Kingdom because the only two remaining kingdoms in the British Isles in 1706/7 signed a treaty to unite. Yet that bipartite United Kingdom contains four distinct countries because the Kingdom of England had, annexed, (not united by treaty), both Wales and Ireland.

    Thus the EU accepted the United Kingdom as a member state NOT as a member country. As the member state is the United Kingdom the EU cannot deal directly with either The Kingdom of England nor with the Kingdom of Scotland. Neither can it deal with the four individual countries that are in the two former independent kingdoms.

    However, if either kingdom withdraws from the United Kingdom there cannot be a remaining United Kingdom as there would be no one to be united with and the Westminster Parliament is actually not legally the Parliament of the Kingdom of England. It just runs itself, (and funds itself), as if it were.

    Now here is the actual point if the United Kingdom ends, (from the EU’s POV).

    There now is no actual member state parliament and Westminster IS NOT the actual Parliament of England for England has no parliament. To the EU parliament there are now two equally valid sovereign states who must be treated strictly the same and there is no United Kingdom parliament to deal with.

    However, the EU has no laws, rules or other mechanisms to throw any member state or any EU citizen out of the EU but it can now deal individually with the now again two individual parts of the former UK as long as both get equal treatment.

    That is why the EU cannot deal with the Parliament of Scotland as the member state is the UK and there is no parliament of England to deal with and when the two split up there is no UK either.

    Get it right Glamaig. It is only the Westminster propaganda that you seem to believe.

    The United Kingdom is NOT the legal parliament of either the Kingdom or the country of England. It is, as it always has been, exactly what it calls itself, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, and if either partner decides the partnership is over then the United Kingdom is no more. It reverts to two independent Kingdoms and the EU must then deal with them both equally.

  362. ScottishPsyche says:


    I listened to the Talk Radio interview with Alistair Cameron from SiU. Rev Stu put up the Twitter link.

    They have started their campaign and from the amount of airtime they are getting they are well connected. This is hopefully the way they will carry on, full of shaky voiced Britnat anger and entitlement.

    Will JK Rowling join them formally I wonder? I know she donated an item for their auction. It really would be suicide for SLab to join them but their judgement is so poor and their funds so low, I would not put it past them.

  363. yesindyref2 says:

    Truly wonderful bit of wonderful BBC bias and editing on the News. After Sarah Smith (is that her name?) interviewing Sturgeon she said something like “Note and note carefully, Sturgeon has not said she would have a referendum” – followed by a cut to a totally out of context view of an SNP delegate at the conference rolling his eyes.

    A pal of mine, I never argued for YES during Indy Ref 1, just told him about the BBC bias which surprised him, but I suggested he look out for it. It’s part of the reason he became a YES, and a strong one – he convinced himself rather than being perusaded one way, then back agan, then back …

    Same thing happened to me back in 1973. With me it was nearly instantaneous, as I could relate it to memory which I just hadn’t noticed before it was pointed out.

    Seriously, the BBC which is becoming more and more panicky by the program, is our best friend.

  364. ALANM says:

    I can’t see a downside to the SNP refusing to provide an “aunt sally” for BBC programmes. Those with a brain in their head won’t be watching/listening anyway and so does it really matter whether or the SNP are represented?

    Those without a brain in their head might start to question why all the politics broadcast on tv and radio is dominated by presenters and politicians Scotland didn’t vote for.

  365. Rock says:

    Dr Jim,


    “but here’s the puzzle bit, suppose the National was all the things you say it is and if indeed it did turn against Independence at the last minute as you suggest how would that change the cause of Independence? Would you not vote for Independence just the same, and if you would wouldn’t everybody else whether they read the National or not”

    The National has nearly zero effect on support for independence. It is mostly bought by independence supporters who would vote for independence anyway.

    But it makes much needed money, at zero risk, for The Herald’s owners which keeps The Herald alive.

    Instead of making The Herald a balanced paper, they are milking both markets.

    As I have said many times, if The National supported independence, it would have WOS type headline news exposing the unionist hypocrites every day.

  366. sandycraig says:

    Fireproofjim Many thanks.

    Like to catch as much as I can. We have some great speakers and debaters who know the facts unlike them yoons who just make them up.

  367. Thepnr says:

    Have a listen for 5 minutes to Jim Rogers on Brexit: If Scotland takes its oil with it…

    Much mentioned today. UK without Scotland is a basket case.

  368. BJ says:

    I stopped watching this live months ago. It’s not really a political programme anyway. It’s just meant as entertainment and I got really annoyed at the rudeness and downright ignorance on many subjects concerning Scotland.

    I am going to write to my MP and ask him if he is ever invited on, PLEASE don’t accept. It’s just an excuse for the BBC to try and humiliate Scotland. As if they need an excuse!

  369. CameronB Brodie says:

    How to tackle the BBC? A tough one but what about an alternative approach?

    The public realm of information is being egregiously polluted by the BBC, at tax payers expense. The SNP would claim stewardship over Scotland’s environment, so I see it their duty to respond accordingly.

    We can not hope for an honest indyref2 with the BBC acting as British state cheerleader. They are masters of symbolic violence as they function to dehistoricise and univeralise Britain. The BBC exists to groom the ‘nation’. Creeps.

  370. yesindyref2 says:

    @CameronB Brodie
    We won’t lose the BBC, so we use them.

    The BBC reaches into the homes of most people in Scotland, so one at a time, group at a time, we just get them to totally distrust the BBC by showing them examples.

    As we do.

  371. Glamaig says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I get what youre saying, but what do you think would have actually happened if Scotland had voted Yes in 2014?

    Do you think Westminster would ever admit that there was no more UK, or would they have tried to go on as the fiction of UK minus a bit?

    The Establishment is so arrogant I cant imagine that they would do anything other than continue to call themselves UK.

    They certainly will have a naming problem. If they call it the Kingdom of England I dont think the Northern Irish or Welsh will be too happy to be suddenly presented with the facts.

  372. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “Thus the EU accepted the United Kingdom as a member state NOT as a member country. As the member state is the United Kingdom the EU cannot deal directly with either The Kingdom of England nor with the Kingdom of Scotland. Neither can it deal with the four individual countries that are in the two former independent kingdoms.”

    Irrespective of your pedantry about “state” and “country”, Saint Theresa is 100% correct.

    The UK as a whole, including the North British kingdom/state/country/nation/region whatever you want to call it, Brexits.

    If Scotland becomes independent before Brexit, it will almost certainly be able to sign the necessary agreement to “become” a new member from the date of Brexit.

    If Scotland is not independent on the date of Brexit, it will have to start a long process to become a member if and when it becomes independent.

    There is no way that Scotland will get any special treatment from the EU if it is still part of the UK at the time of Brexit.

    It is my view that to get the best terms out of both the EU and the UK, Scotland should be fully independent by 31st December 2017.

    The ancient “facts” you assert may be true but are utterly useless to today’s Scotland.

  373. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yes but no but as was pointed out earlier, we’re not all connected to t’internet and only a select few are political geeks. 😉

    That’s a lot of foot-leather against the might of the state broadcaster.

    I’d feel much happier if the EU were to publicly remind the BBC as to legal framework that public service broadcasters operate under within the EU. In particular, the need for political impartiality. That is, I’m assuming we will have indyref2 before being told what to do by England.

    Re. the EU being so bold. I’ll probably be left watching the scenes of pigs as they fly north to winter. I know the EU is in a tricky position but it must not be forgotten that the EU’s mandate has been slipping for a while now. They will be looking out for the EU’s continued interests, first ansd foremost, IMHO.

  374. Nana says:


    Story here, I’ve not archived just in case anyone wants to mention its not just our oil we’ll be taking with us.

  375. Bob Mack says:


    I disagree. It is those ancient “facts” that has so far prevented Theresa May from steamrolling ahead whether Scotland liked it or not. It is also why they even “allowed ” us to have the last referendum.
    They have been trying to dispute those ancient facts recently by their legal experts opinion that the Treaty of Union extinguished Scotland. They have not acted on that opinion legally as yet. Wonder why ?

  376. Thepnr says:

    Thanks for that Nana.

    Caveat but it is worth listening to what he has to say, he may be a slug but when it comes to what value a currency has I’m sure he knows what he’s talking about.

    If he says that the GBP will be worth less that a dollar if Scotland leaves the UK I’d put money on him being right.

    A Scottish pound would be worth two GBP and don’t they know it!

  377. No no no...Yes says:

    This is a huge boost to indyref2 cause:

    BBC Radio4 interview today.The UK economy is dependent on Scotland’s oil.

  378. Nana says:


    Agree certainly worth listening to the moneymen. Here’s Gordon MacIntyre Kemp’s latest offering

  379. No no no...Yes says:

    @thepnr apologies, just noticed your link to same source.

  380. mike cassidy says:

    Re Jim Rogers –

    If you listen to the radio interview, what strikes you most strongly is the casual way he mentions it.

    It is clear that to him this is such an obvious point. Not some speculative economic prediction.

    Scotland goes.

    The oil goes.

    The pound goes — down!

    And there, unintentionally, is the answer to the question coming up again and again.

    Why would these austerity-loving, foodbank-spreading Unionists be so anxious to hold on to this subsidy-junkie, economic millstone round their neck.

    Because it would give their economic wellbeing such a kick in the gonads, there is no way of knowing how long it would take them to get their economic breath back.

  381. Macart says:

    @ No no no… Yes

    Oh Jeez, that’s a belter!

    He didn’t pull his punches.


  382. Thepnr says:

    @No no no…Yes

    No problem my friend Wings needs all it’s alert readers and you are one. Ta.

  383. Glamaig says:

    Nana says:
    14 October, 2016 at 7:31 pm

    Story here, I’ve not archived just in case anyone wants to mention its not just our oil we’ll be taking with us.

    As Indyref2 looms, we might get more people like this speaking out. They dont give a monkeys about the UK, all they care about is money, and once they start jumping ship we know we are winning.

    Timing of Indyref is crucial. It has to be already clear that the EU is going to shaft UK and is friendly to Scotland. The economy has to be very obviously about to tank, but crucially most firms wont yet have relocated. Watch them flood over the border when theres a Yes.

  384. Meg merrilees says:

    Listening to Any Questions on R4 just now, coming from Glasgow University Union.

    Good speeches from Mike Russell Brexit Minister promoting SNP policies and achievements. education; poll showing strong after 10 years in government, looking at a variety of solutions to the Brexit problem. David Frost, Head of Scottish Whisky Association fairly balanced too.

    Labour girl – doesn’t sound as tho she really believes her own party’s policies.

    Fluffy just doom and gloom the whole time, too wee, too poor, def too stupid. He sounds nervous. We were NOT promised that voting YES was guaranteed EU membership( – that lie again, obviously the party line,) SNP using Independence to distract the Scottish public from the bad job they are doing… audience member just accused Fluffy of being deceitful by saying that the Tories stand up for the working class – loud cheers and applause from the audience.

    Dimbleby brother seems a lot less opinionated than the TV version and has pulled up Fluffy a couple of times. Might go so far as to say unbiased!

    Refreshingly level-headed discussion after the TV version last night, although I think the audience stunned into silence sometimes, too good mannered, or is it just that the south british lot are more bolshy? Will be interesting to hear the ‘Any Answers’ follow-up tomorrow.

  385. Petra says:

    @ Thepnr says at 6:59 pm ….. ”Have a listen for 5 minutes to Jim Rogers on Brexit: If Scotland takes its oil with it…

    Much mentioned today. UK without Scotland is a basket case.”


    @ Nana says at 7:31 pm …. ”Thepnr …. Story here, I’ve not archived just in case anyone wants to mention its not just our oil we’ll be taking with us.”


    Excellent. A wee copy of that should get sent off to Andrew Neil et al. Brilliant too (totally concise) for combating the online ‘Scotland too poor’ ignoramuses. Add to that chucking Trident out. Oh, happy days!

    On the down side you can see that we’re going to have a REAL battle on our hands.

  386. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock –

    Your campaign to shut down The National is remarkable if for no other reason than you have demonstrated real resilience in maintaining it for so long.

    But your cavalier attitude towards Scottish History is another matter altogether – high-handed dismissal of a fellow regular poster does you no credit and hasn’t the slightest effect on facts which, apparently, annoy you so much.

    If you don’t like the plain truth that Robert Peffers would take you to pieces in face-to-face, point-by-point debate – just as he has done right here in these threads – please at least be big enough to admit that Scottish History is not your forte.

  387. HandandShrimp says:

    Got man flu so having a night in by the telly. Watching HIGNFY and was horrified to find Ruthie is on it. However Henning Wehn is making me laugh and Ruth seems relatively happy to stick a bit of gentle boot into Davies and Boris. Could be worse 🙂

  388. CameornB Brodie says:

    Oh, happy days!

    But what about the sausage-rolls and the wee dogs? We shouldn’t be allowed to forget them so easily.

    Maintaining a sense of proportion is as important as maintaining realistic perspective, IMHO. In fact, I’d say its hard to separate the two but then I don’t really understand a lot of modern art. 🙂

  389. Thepnr says:

    @CameornB Brodie

    You know what it’s like Cameron. When the wind is blowing from the North it’s freezing but it brings the fish. if you cook the fish then it warms you up!

    Yeh cannae win.

  390. Meg merrilees says:

    Mike Cassidy @ 7. 25pm

    Just watched the Mike Russell/ Andrew Neil discussion. Mike was great… a few minutes on tho… gold dust!!! 26 minutes in…

    Andrew Neil says out loud on Live TV : ” In the Scottish referendum, the UNIONISTS promised that the only sure way for Scotland to stay in the EU was to vote YES” and how did that turn out – answer, not very well!

    Can someone archive this?


  391. CameronB Brodie says:

    But what about the seagulls that followed the fishing boat? We shouldn’t be allowed to forget them either. 😉

  392. heedtracker says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    14 October, 2016 at 9:18 pm
    Got man flu so having a night in by the telly. Watching HIGNFY and was horrified to find Ruthie is on it.

    That’s actually Susan Calman H&S. Too much man flu medicine:D
    And even if its not actually Susan Calman, it may as well be. BBC Scotland went through a faze of Susan Calman types for a while.

    Everyone’s familiar with Susan’s esteemed father and the Calman Commission on Scottish devo. Check out who was on the commission and what party has no one. Spooky.

    The Commission has 15 members, including nominees of the three Unionist parties, representatives of business, trade unions, academia and community organisations.

    Professor Sir Kenneth Calman (convener); Chancellor of the University of Glasgow (Chairman)
    Lord Boyd of Duncansby; former Lord Advocate and Labour peer
    Rani Dhir; Director, Drumchapel Housing Co-operative
    Professor Sir David Edward; retired Judge of the European Court of Justice
    Lord Selkirk of Douglas; former Scottish Office Minister, now Conservative peer
    Lord Elder (Murray Elder); member of the House of Lords (Labour)
    Audrey Findlay; former Leader of Aberdeenshire Council, now Convener of the Scottish Liberal Democrats
    The Earl of Lindsay; former Scottish Office Minister, now Conservative peer and Chairman of the Scottish Agricultural College
    John Loughton; youth activist, former Chairman, Scottish Youth Parliament
    Murdoch MacLennan; Chief Executive, Telegraph Media Group
    Shonaig Macpherson; Chair of the National Trust for Scotland and of the Scottish Council for Development and Industry
    Iain McMillan; Director, CBI Scotland
    Mona Siddiqui; Professor of Islamic Studies, University of Glasgow
    Matt Smith; Scottish Secretary, UNISON
    Lord Wallace of Tankerness; former Deputy First Minister and former leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, now Liberal Democrat peer

  393. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    CameronB Brodie says at 9:55 pm

    “the seagulls that followed the fishing boat?”

    You channelling your inner Cantona, CameronB?? 🙂

  394. CameronB Brodie says:

    But of course.

    I’ve always thought philosophy would take politics in a square go. 🙂

  395. CameronB Brodie says:

    On a more serious note, I think we are genuinely faced with the realistic prospect of the British union ending in the very near future. Great for us but a traumatic event for some. It’s going to be though not to gloat but we really should make an effort. More for the sake of civil cohesion than proper decorum, you understand. 😉

  396. Big Phil says:

    In all serious here , We all know that Scotland is rich in resources and that we’re not too wee etc, so why cant the likes of the wee books become MSM from the SG. its like that “question time” shite wi Alex Salmond, Stop being nice and start telling these braindead fucks the truth, yes it’ll be hard at first, but fuck me anything is beter than 20 years of tory “scotland who” bullshit, They know they are fucked without us because we pay their way. in my eyes a nawbag is a ("Tractor" - Ed).

  397. Big Phil says:


  398. manandboy says:

    Scottish or British. Yes or No.

    Hard though it may be to believe, but not too many No voters are overwhelmed by the idea of self-determination. And yet, to Yes voters it’s huge.
    Furthermore, Yes voters don’t perhaps always get it, as to why No supporters don’t get it, as to why self-determination is so big for Independence supporters.
    Maybe it’s just that No voters believe in something which is, to them, more important than self-determination and independence. Which means they simply believe that Britain is one country, which already is independent and already has self-determination, and that, as British citizens, they have no need of Scottish Independence. In other words, being British is more important to them than being Scottish – or, as they would see it, Yorkshire.

    But, census figures tell us that most people living in Scotland consider themselves Scottish, not British.

    So being British is not enough. Enter the soft No voters – for whom being Scottish is not enough to want Independence. They have to be financially disadvantaged, sufficiently for Independence to constitute a risk they cannot afford. Those who can’t afford a cut in state pension, or to lose their position with an English Company. Or simply someone who is by nature or upbringing fearful of uncertainty and cannot cope with it. Lacking courage or national pride, they retreat to safety in the status quo.

    Then there’s the well-off. Why risk disturbing a comfortable life?

    So, the Scottish Electorate will remain the same. Each will vote in IndyRef2 from the same starting point as in IndyRef14. Except now we have a big pile of broken promises – and Brexit, with so much uncertainty.

    One thing’s for sure, The Union, as we know it, is over. There will be no going back to the days of almost complete ignorance by Scots of what the English have been up to behind our backs. By fair means or otherwise, Divorce will come – unless WW3 beats us to it.

  399. Les Wilson says:

    You know, while they are banging on about what business will be lost with England, 4 or 5 times (depending who says it)more than our trade with the EU.

    They do not talk about England’s trade with Scotland, that seems not to register with them. For good reason, their exports to Scotland are huge, but deliberately no really accurate figures are available.
    They would be shooting themselves in the foot if they really messed with that.Do not trust anything from the treasury or any of their “think tanks” as they only think one way, and conceal the truth. Whats new!

    They know it would be disaster for very many English firms that transport their goods to us 24/7. They sell us everything.

    Just watch the lorries trundling along the M74 or M8 every hour of the day. From all over England.
    It is obvious, Scotland is a very big market for them.

    A truly accurate figure should be compiled and shoved under their noses.

  400. Hamish100 says:

    Re Grinning Davidson and HIGNFY

    Susan Calman was on the BBC News quiz!! Are they twins? or the same person? Do they know? Did they share a cab,

    BBC are quite intent on pushing the No’s and brexiters. Quite blatant now, aren’t they.

    The British state are gearing up.

  401. Rock says:

    Bob Mack,


    I disagree. It is those ancient “facts” that has so far prevented Theresa May from steamrolling ahead whether Scotland liked it or not.”

    Saint Theresa has delayed Brexit because of Scottish “rights”?

    You must be joking.

  402. Muscleguy says:

    Canvassing for Indy recently we did get one woman who said ‘Not yet’ looking distressed and flustered. Obviously the Brexit referendum following hard on the Holyrood election has been too much for some. But note she did not say ‘No way’ or ‘Never’ or ‘No thanks’. So providing the actual vote isn’t for a while I’d put her in the Yes bracket.

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