The tunes of glory
Posted on
February 25, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
After Scotland’s rugby team sent proud Edward (Jones)’s army homeward with some well-skelped erses from Murrayfield yesterday, it seemed like an opportune moment to reflect on this from just 12 years ago.
The full story is below.
Of course, you wouldn’t have this problem with another anthem. But that’s Unionists for you: always proudly willing Scotland to defeat.
I’d no idea Munro was such a Yoon fud.
Kind of casts a shadow over Runrig’s tunes for me.
Well here’s an idea, let’s adopt, “Scots Wha Hae”, that’ll save singing third verse, LOL. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, suggest you use one of your Metro Yoon Papers (Toilet) instead of tobacco.
A wee birdie tells me that Donnie may just have changed his mind about the whole Independence thing.
And, in passing, we shouldn’t be castigating forme “No” voters.
We’ll need their support next time round.
Never mind Donnie and football. Yesterday’s rugby was sweet and that last verse is what gets everyone charged up. Positive vibes, folks, positive vibes 🙂
Donny ancestors were one of the first clans to sign up with General Wade. The apple has not fallen far from the tree.
BritNats should remember their own wee nationalistic and jingoistic ditty was first performed in London a week after the Battle of Preston Pans.
Scatter his/her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
In case anyone forgets, it is referring to Scottish Jacobites.
There is a fourth verse, which has been set aside and hidden, which explicitly refers to “Rebellious Scots to crush!”
Flower of Scotland serves as a sporting anthem. I’d prefer Freedom Come All Ye as a genuine National Anthem.
Had also heard that Mr Munro may have had a change of mind.
Oops!
Someone with unionist tendencies was less than happy about singing a verse of Flower of Scotland because it kind of destroyed his unionist ideals … HIS country being subjugated by another country.
Never mind …WE can all sing that verse whenever we like … especially after reports from Murrayfield that a bunch of “AMATEUR” rugby players thrashed a visiting group of high flying foreign rugby players. Reports I have read suggest the bunch of “amateurs” did not receive their instructions from the foreign team in time before kick off so naturally they went out and … erm … kicked earse!
I wonder if we are allowed to call this “amateur” team Scotland or will doing so upset Claire Balding … AGAIN! 😀
In the true spirit of the game, I forgive him——-especially if he’s changed his mind.
What an unpleasant surprise.
It’s like discovering that one of The Corries was actually Archie MacPherson.
*shudder*
On another note..since when was God save the Queen the ENGLISH national anthem?
Sorry to burst your bubble Arbroath 1320, but, every player on the park at Murrayfield on Saturday was a full-time paid professional player.
Certainly, the English team probably earn man-for-man, more than the Scottish one, although Finn Russell’s new £700,000 per year contract with Racing 92 from next season might skew that somewhat, but, rugby has been “open” and players paid, since 1995.
I think, yesterday, our guys just wanted it more.
Freedom come all Ye is a blinding tune.
Would get my vote.
As for munroe…if he now backs indy, thats what matters now.
I knew that Donnie Munro was a Unionist, after all he did stand as a candidate for New Labour and was beaten by Charles Kennedy.
I’ve always liked his singing, and tried not to let his political leanings colour it for me. But hey, if he’s now changed his mind all the better. The more no’s that we can persuade to change their minds, the better chance we have for our independence.
Flower of Scotland is a terrible dirge.
Let’s have Scots Wha Hae as someone has already suggested. It’s got feisty words if you want them. Or perhaps someone could write some uplifting words to Highland Cathedral?
Donnie has recovered from losing all credibility.
Pete Wishart MP keeps Runrig honest.
The Freedom Come A’ Ye for me. We are just starting to get together an effort to mark the greatness of John “Jock” McLellan of Dunoon who composed the tune (The Bloody Fields of Flanders) to which Hamish Henderson wrote the words.
Socrates MacSporran says:
25 February, 2018 at 11:53 am
Sorry to burst your bubble Arbroath 1320, but, every player on the park at Murrayfield on Saturday was a full-time paid professional player.
I know they were Socrates … I was trying … and obviously failing … to be a wee bit … erm … sarcastic in my comment there
For Auld Rock @ 11:21 am and David Howdle @ 12:06 pm
Scots Wha Hae – Reprise
Scots, wha hae wi’ Salmond bled,
Scots, wham Sturgeon aften led,
Welcome tae yer gory bed
Or tae destiny.
Now’s the day, an’ now’s the hour:
Seize oor chance a’ last fir power.
See the fearties start tae cower.
Scotland will be free!
Wha will be a low appeaser?
Wha will bow tae Lunnon’s Th’resa?
Wha sae base as be a greaser?
Let him turn an’ flee.
Wha fir Scotland’s Pride an’ Aw’
Freedom’s sword will strongly draw?
Bondsman stand or Freeman fa’:
Let him follow me.
By th’ oppressive woes and pains,
Of oor sons in servile chains,
We will drain oor dearest veins
But we shall be free!
Lay Westminster oh so low.
Traitors fall – like every foe.
Liberty’s oors wi’ every blow!
Let oor vote be SNP!
______
[With acknowledgements]
“Flower of Scotland” is a dreary dirge of a song I am sure we could do better. “Scots Wa Hae” is OK as long as it is sung in march time. “Scotland the Brave” is just awful. For me we should adopt “500 miles” at least everyone would sing it!
In my teens in the 80’s Runrig was an important part of awakening my Scottish nationality so I was very disappointed to hear a few years later that he was a unionist Labourite. However, the real talent behind Runrig, the MacDonald brothers who wrote the songs, are Indy supporters.
If Donnie has finally seen the light then that’s good to hear and I welcome him into the camp. But being a celeb he should get involved in the next Indy ref campaign to make up for past mistakes. But I won’t hold my breath…
Good and bad ying and yang Runrig over the years have produced some good music, some not so good and some great! just like their band members. Put these two into any category you want:- Donnie Munro & Pete Wishart. If as we are being led to believe Donnie has changed his opinion great!! Everyone is entitled to. Pete changed over long before Donnie I will just say welcome now lets get some work done converting others oh by bthe way donnie since you were so vocal in support for the union could you please be as vocal in your support for indy
A National Anthem needs to be what children will like to sing. Australia based their new Anthem on this principle and it works.
I would like to hear a re-write on the tune of Scots Wae Hae. Or take a good look at the wealth of Gaelic tunes and put words to one of these. But not a dirge, a re write on something like Mari’s Wedding sound good.
I’ve always thought that people picked to play for their country should be able/willing to sing the Scottish anthem, and was annoyed if before a match some of the players declined to sing the song the supporters sang.
Recently I thought that the players had improved in their singing of the anthem, but I was annoyed by one who didn’t, Kieran Tierney. I don’t care if he was not born in Scotland, (he came here with his parents when he was 4),but he’s making money out of being picked for Scotland so should do what the rest of the team do.
Good player, but little shit……
Last time I had a conversation with Donnie about this and he was still pro union, both of his son’s are now Teasers but maybe in the 8 months since I spoke that maybe he has seen the light but he was more of a federalist rather than a yoon
Teasers should read Yessers, blinking predictive text
What is this game of which yous all speak?
Ovoid balls which are carried…shurley schum mishtake.
Anyhoo! Well done Scotland YASS!.
At last something to write home to my mother about.
I’m really pleased. Honest! 🙂
PS: In other news from the branch office.
Hark the Herald
Richard Leonard faces divisive vote on Brexit at Scottish Labour conference
link to archive.is
Does the UK actually have an anthem?
It can’t have a National Anthem because by all official and legal definitions it isn’t a nation nor a country. It’s a United Kingdom. Unions can have anthems, the EU has an anthem based on Ode to Joy from Beethoven’s 9th Symphony. If the UK in its entirety has anything, it would need to be an Anthem of Union.
God save the Queen is inappropriate – sectarian in its roots, written to be anti Scottish, and clearly adopted by England as their National Anthem. Fair enough, their choice.
iScotland’s future National Anthem, no matter what it is, will be sung loudly by myself, and no doubt most other Scots by that stage in the constitutional game.
The UK and the Union, and any symbolism there of? Hopefully dead, buried, and rarely mourned.
The Big Yin used to be extremely vociferous in his mocking attacks on The SNP and Independence.
However, for several years now he has been very quiet on the subject which would suggest that perhaps he has seen the light but is not prepared to admit his misguided past.
I suggest that Scotland leads the way with a modern and progressive tune such as “I’ve got a thing, you’ve got a thing” by Funkadelic or “Sexy Muthafucker” from the artist formerly known as…Wee Jock
I can only hope he’s now Yes. British nationalism is an evil force and it would be a shame if he still supported it.
@ Ian Brotherhood, brilliant! 🙂
Thought Ash Denham SNP MSP, you know the classy one who won the seat against Ms Dugdale in the last Scottish election, was very good on Sunday Politics today.
She came across as self assured and she was determined to finish her point when Mr Brewer tried to cut her off mid sentence. She was having none of it, she made her point to the end. Good girl, he asked you answered.End of.
It is always good to see a new SNP representative being given an opportunity and she seemed very confident and was more than able to articulate her points and defend the Scottish government’s position via Brexit WM power grab.I think she may be one to watch. More of this calibre please SNP.
As to Donnie Munro well it just seems so…so…so….uber unionist. Am I surprised …shocked…nah par for the course innit……Union uber alles . Did he not sing The Bonnie Banks o’ Loch Lommond with the line ‘You’ll take the high road and I’ll take the low road’ ( ‘take’ unionist version as opposed to ‘tak’ which is obvs a much too nationalistic version)….yeh well he can (continue to ) go low and we’ll (continue to) go high.
Bit harsh on Tierney, seanair. I’m not a big fan of FoS but I’d like to think I’d belt it out if I was lucky enough to represent my country. I’m surprised you singled out young Tierney, what about our captain, Scott Brown? He just stands there with a stern look. Maybe singing doesn’t fit into his own macho image of himself. I find it embarrassing every time. He’s often put to shame by players like Matt Ritchie, who admitted he hadn’t set foot in Scotland before being picked for the first time; he always seems to attempt it.
Btw, on Kieran Tierney, his Wiki says his parents left Isle of Man when he was aged ten months.
I remember long ago, when Donnie was asked why Runrig was enjoying considerable success abroad at that time but not in the UK he replied (better call it paraphrasing but I think it is accurate) “It is a case of today the World, tomorrow England.” So I was very surprised when I found out some time later he was an ardent Unionist.
Scottish bands like Runrig, Wolfstone, Battlefield Band, Capercaillie and others did much to bring Celtic music to the fore in Europe, some winning top music awards in countries like Germany and Spain, even if some of them remained unknown to the majority of their own countrymen.
It’s starting… no, it’s continuing:
“Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by Thy mighty aid victory bring,
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God Save the King.”
I sing this (with gusto) to Unionists whenever I can.
Usually at this juncture, I pipe up with the Freedom Come All Ye suggestion, but this time instead might I suggest Tonight at Noon’s arrangement of the John MacLean March.
OK probably needs new words but this arrangement is very upbeat.
Alert listeners might notice that the tune is basically that of Scotland the Brave with only minimal tweaks but is an excellent example how little sometimes needs to be done to change something from cringe worthy to brilliant.
link to youtube.com
Christ that’s awful, although it shows the power of celebs on the yoon side so it would have been a perfectly rational block,
SFA blocks “rising and be a nation again.”
Only in their Scotland region.
They’d ban the Saltire too, if likes of JK Trolling insisted on it because British celebs are where its at, UKOK wise.
Celeb’s know best, British celebs.
Dan Huil says:
The SNP will always put Scotland first. They are honest and open about this. If that were to mean derailing a future trade agreement not in our interests, they I would expect nothing less! That’s their elected job!
What would be the alternative? Elected BritNat lackies in Holyrood who would just sell out Scotland? That is of course what the Telegraph and others want!
Brexiteers, the Telegraph, the Tories … the whole ultra right cabal … always put England first. The difference is of course, they never admit that. They will claim in it in the UK’s interests they act. The reality is their UK stops at England’s borders when that suits their needs most. The perfect example right now being Northern Ireland. However Scotland too is being completely ignored in their über natfest of a Brexit.
Tells you all you need to know about this so called Union. It doesn’t exist as a meaningful partnership, it never did, and it certainly never will now!
Aye very good and the original article from 2012. Got to admit I like the idea of HOOTS MON! THERE’S A MOOSE! LOOSE! ABOOT THIS HOOSE! as well.
As for Donnie Munro, the cringe is strong in this one. I suspect he would think the Skye Bridge far too high to walk over.
So a few gripers letting their pet peeves loose aboot the hoos. There’s a lot of fans from Ireland, Wales and France who seem to love singing FoS. Isn’t that telling us something? Anyway I doubt it’s going to change in the near future unless it becomes tainted by some association. Musically speaking what might help it is singing harmonically higher on the last line (like the Welsh do) but starting on the word ‘homeward’ from the penultimate line.
Trying to be constructive n that…
Saboteurs, ("Tractor" - Ed)s, enemies of the people, enemies of the state, Scots people, Irish people, nasty European foreign people, Welsh people don’t count (sorry Welsh people you lot have had it) The British media’s doing all it can to help….
But….
Everybody’s just ruining Englands Brexit
Scots Wha Hae is problematic as an official national anthem as it is widely known across Europe as Marche des Soldats de
Robert Bruce.
The French foreign legion play it when they are inspecting the troops and it features on other formal occassions. A homage to the auld alliance.
If It were another country’s (Scotland) offical national anthem I think it might be problematic for this use to continue and so we would be destroying a very old (Joan of Arc) French military tradition.
Anyways, something new and forward looking with an upbeat variation on an old tune would surely be more appropriate.
Chic, That sort of arrangement of an old tune is spot on.
It never seems to make the list very much but,I think
Auld Lang Syne would makes great National Anthem.
Its not aboot bloody battle’s,its aboot long term friendships.
The whole world recognize it at Scottish, and the best bit….
Most of the world not only sing it one day a year,they can do the actions as well.
Not many countries have such an instantly recognizable tune.
Also I think the kid’s would like it,and the fact that they are clasping hand’s and not marching/saluting or clasping their heart,I think,sends the right message about what we’re aspiring to be aboot!
Jist sayin!!!
@galamcennalath says: 25 February, 2018 at 1:19 pm:
Does the UK actually have an anthem?
There is no such thing as an official National Anthem of the United Kingdom. However, if you attempt to do a Google you will find there are literally thousands of questions about an anthem and the vast majority of them are answered with total claptrap.
Either claiming that, “God Save the Queen/King”, is the anthem of either England or of Britain but neither of these has an official anthem.
You will even find it hard finding someone requesting an answer to the question, “What is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom.”.
Draw your own conclusions to why there are no questions asking what is the National anthem of the United Kingdom but thousands asking what is the official British or English anthems.
Simply Britain is NOT a single kingdom for part of British Isles is the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom does not include the Channel Island Crown Dependencies nor the Isle of Man.
Almost anything for an anthem except “Highland Cathedral” – not a Scottish tune, awful melodic progress, and some really dire crap already written to it about “God and King” by proud Scotbutts.
Anthems should not be difficult melodically, most are not particularly original in terms of words beyond versions of “aren’t we great?” and/or “stuff our enemies”, and while there are worthy anthems of the left available not everyone is of that persuasion. It also doesn’t really work at sporting contests – “let’s all unite behind politically correct banners in a non-discriminatory and totally inclusive way without alienating our opponents who deserve success as much as we do” is not that inspiring.
“Flower of Scotland” may win the popular vote – the main thing is not to ever let Brass bands play it in strict and jaunty 3/4 WALTZ time as a piss-take before matches.
It may have been written that way, but it’s not how it’s usually sung by sports fans.
Best wishes to some genius who will square this circle!
What Liz G said.
Dr Jim says:
A fair appraisal of the situation!
I believe England wants
BrEngexit and that they should be allowed to get on with it.The big issue, of course, is with their Greater England view of these isles, they want to drag everyone else with them! Some Brextremists have even suggested the Rep of Ireland should go along too!
I am also sure, though they would deny it publically, a lot of our fellow Europeans must feel this a chance to give perfidious England some comeuppance!
So when folks ‘get in the way’ of EngExit, England has got itself to blame.
A simple solution is always on hand. England just needs to accept that leaving the EU may mean the disintegration of the UK. If they would face up to that, facilitate various referendums, and sort the whole mess out in a oner, it would all go much more smoothly for them!
Liz g says:
25 February, 2018 at 2:39 pm
It never seems to make the list very much but,I think
Auld Lang Syne would makes great National Anthem.
I want, “You take the High road and I’ll take the low road and I’ll be in Scotland before you…
You’ll take the high road and I’ll take the low road,
And I’ll be in Scotland afore you.
Where me and my true love will never meet again,
On the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond.
All inclusive, no confrontation, easy to sing along to very loud or soft.
Its meant to about two captured Highland soldiers waiting execution in the Tower of London after Culloden though.
Heedtracker @ 2.59
While I could get on board with the tune….
Do we really want to sing about “the broken hearted” mind it is all aboot the “soldier” who didn’t get away?
And if we really dig into it the execution of a captured prisoner of (again) War!
I was going for nay soldier’s, nay King’s,nay Deity’s and nay memorialising any war’s.
Re Scottish National anthem:
Robert Murray, Edinburgh folk musician and stamp dealer, has held a series of meetings around the country in the past few years, illustrating his talks musically, and explaining the attributes of good national anthems from around the world, and comparing and contrasting the various contenders for a Scottish anthem. Each of the examples that people have put forward above has pluses and minuses, for various reasons, some of which have been highlighted in the comments above – but there are also ‘technical’ issues – can the tune be played on the pipes, for instance, and is the range capable of being sung by untrained singers of different sexes. The words have to be inclusive and inspiring and reflect the ethos and aspirations of the country and its people.
Robert is well-worth listening to – his talk is entertaining and thought-provoking and could kick-start a discussion across Scotland – perhaps even a musical competition to compose a new anthem. I’m sure the BBC would be willing to host such an event…but perhaps not.
@cearc 14:33
Rubbish, man! I really don’t think there would be any problem with using the tune to Scot’s Wha Hae, or Hey Tuttie Tatie as it was known before Burns wrote Scot’s Wha Hae. Why should it? There is a long history of the tune in both Scotland and France. Having the tune, Hey Tuttue Tatie, as our national anthem would be a link to our past, but, also an affirmation of our relationship with France and our place as a European country. It would destroy nothing, only enhance the tune for both Scotland and France.
Also, when our monarch, or First Minister, or whoever official went to France, at least they’d already know the tune. It wouldn’t seem like foreigners were visiting at all, merely cousins from the North.
An old familiar tune for the Scotland of the past, but with new words for the Scotland of the future. That’s what we need!
7 out of 10 people surveyed in England would like to own a Morris Traveller (I made that up) but for a second there you would believe it to be true wouldn’t you, and why? those poor folk seem unable to grasp the concept of time like the moving finger having writ moves on, and it is a serious problem in the South, the loss of Empire with waving Union flags and celebrations of winning wars that they actually didn’t win, because as anybody with a normal outlook on life knows nobody actually wins wars
The return to the imaginary halcyon days of Royal admiration warm summers and cows lowing in the fields while folk sit on blankets with their wicker picnic baskets packed full of bendy bananas cheese sandwiches and lashings of ginger beer just aren’t coming back if they ever existed in the first place for most people
So proud are some people in the south of still retaining their ration books they’ve forgotten the stuff they didn’t have that they can’t remember when we joined the EU all the stuff most folk have now became readily and easily available and we take all that for granted now
The Tories have conned the English into believing that with a bit of effort and sacrifice (on the ordinary persons part) that as they like to call it *The sunny uplands* will return and all the nasty furriners will be gone back to where we bombed them out of or financially ruined for them and they’ll just stop being here in Lil ol England that’s forever English and always will be free
Poor souls are really really wrong and they’re buying tickets to the wrong movie and Hayley Mills isnae in it because they’ve been stuck with the *I’m a celebrity gae me more money* 24 hour a day insanity a third rate rip off of American obesity diet of drivel with people you don’t know but you’re prepared to hand over your money to watch them do even more stupid things than the stupid program you just watched
Have the people in England not got alarm clocks, it’s wakey wakey time
No disrespect to Pete W but always thought Runrig were rubbish anyway. As for Donnie Dick Munro who facially resembles Glen Michael , was particularly keach as a front man and i am sure (Donnie like Spinal Tap reside in the where are they now section?)
I was at the Scotland v France rugby match, I was along with 5 french neighbours from when I had a house there.
They loved Flower of Scotland, they new most of the words from watching Scottish games which I had encouraged them to do.
They were pretty up to date with our politics too, again courtesy of myself making them aware. They wanted to be in the Murrayfield crowd to experience the whole Flower of Scotland thing for themselves.
They loved it, and they said that for them, it was the best national anthem of the 6 nations. They also accepted that Scotland deserved to win, no malice at all.
So take in how the crowd responded to the song, and how the French who were with me anyway, really loved the song and the passion that came through from it. The crowds respond very well to it as we all heard.
While I know the arguments or discussions that it should be replaced, but it really raises the spirit of the crowd, and that is pretty important.
cearc says:
25 February, 2018 at 2:33 pm
Scots Wha Hae is problematic as an official national anthem as it is widely known across Europe as Marche des Soldats de
Robert Bruce.
The French foreign legion play it when they are inspecting the troops and it features on other formal occassions. A homage to the auld alliance.
Liechtenstein’s anthem is to the tune of GSTQ. Terrible taste, but they haven’t been invaded yet.
@cearc
The Relief of Orléans
Joan was led into the besieged city of Orléans on April 28th, 1429, to the celebratory skirl of the Scottish pipes. The tune played for her was “Hey Tuttie Taiti”. The same tune that had marched Robert the Bruce into battle at Bannockburn a century before. The same tune that Robert Burns would set to his poem “Scots Wha Hae” centuries later,
“Beside good Randal Rutherford I ran, and we both leaped together into the ditch. There was a forest of ladders set against the wall, and I had my foot on a rung, when the Maid ran up and cried, “Nom Dieu! what make you here? Let me lead my Scots”,
The poor wee lassie was later burned alive by the English for wearing mens clothes.
Re: the headline today in the Daily Torygraph.
Westminster does what is best for England. It seems only fair then, that the Scots Parliament does what is best for Scotland. Thank heavens Scotland has the SNP to stand up for it.
As for national anthems, i’d go for freedom come a ye. BUT, I actually like Flower of Scotland a great deal -it’s a good song.
God save the Queen is the ENGLISH national anthem. Always has been, since the day it was written. Only a fool or craven, pathetic British Nationalist in Scotland would sing such a colonialist, anti Scotland piece of sh*te.
I can mind a few years back, old Hampden I think when the crowd were singing ‘Flower of Scotland’ and the TV crew panned in on Princess Ann. There was Annie giein’ it laldy!
I can also mind an earlier time when the band struck up Scotland The Brave and the crowd went full Tonto with FoS.
I’ve also had the privilege of being in a small folk club audience an hearing Roy Williamson and Ronnie Brown perform FoS live. It’s beautiful, rich tune and a great tragedy that it was butchered to fit the Pipes.
i never heard the musique principal de la legion play the Marche des Soldats de Robert Bruce
they usually play le boudin
unwritten last verse is
quand t’en a des flics au cul
et des ennuies dans la musette
on s’engage sur le fanion
vert et rouge de la legion
et sac a dos on taille la route
quand t’en a des flics au cul
This takes some beating. Wait till the pipes come in!
link to youtube.com
Les Wilson @ 3.38
I don’t think anyone would dispute that Flower of Scotland is an uplifting anthem for sporting events Les.
But a National Anthem has to be for more than supporters in a stadium.
And my question would be….Why is the only King ” Our ” National Anthem mentions the English King Edward ?
It even call’s – Him – proud and – Us -flower’s
They loved it, and they said that for them, it was the best national anthem of the 6 nations. They also accepted that Scotland deserved to win, no malice at all.
The French national anthem is one of the greatest ever, with Russia’s
link to youtube.com
Brexitland’s new anthem for us all though,
seeing as we’re all going together, under BBC Scotland control, sorry BetterTogether, stronger, safer, nicer change, must be true, Goggsy’s Broon kept saying so, 2014. Then he fcuked off back to Kirkcaldy to be with his people and enjoy his money.
link to youtube.com
@liz g
Great suggestion for Auld Lang Syne. And great reasoning -it’s easy to sing, convivial and the whole world know it.
Won’t it be great to actually be in the position where we have to worry about what our National Anthem should be? 🙂
Ane or twa hurdles tae loup afore that!
Anent “Loch Lomond”–the soldiers were not executed in London.
Preston or Calisle.
Celb,– when I am abroad I am British, when at home English.
Little wonder this as the English are not, and have not been welcomed abroad, in most countries, for manys the long day.
@Terry
@liz g
We are going to have to teach the world how to pronounce ‘syne’ (since) with an S and not with a bloody Z as so many seem to do!
….obviously to be a Labour supporter you have to put Party before nation.
Sad that someone was willing to do that and even sadder that he was allowed to sing it in te first place.
Why would you sing any part if you do not believe in your country?
Another house broken forelock tugging cretin thankful for left overs.
With all the “SERIOUS” discussions going on about what our National Anthem should/should not be can I put my tuppence worth in? 😉
link to youtube.com
We could have a personalised version for different occasions.
O flower of Scotland
When will you see our likes again
That fight and dive for
The ball your half and then
We score against you
Proud Eddie’s finest
And send you homeward
Tae greet again
galamcennalath @ 4.25
Well…we will just have to have Scottish broadcasting make a program aboot it and ” SYNE “the way… A tough call though cause its the Whole World mind ye!
Well manage though Aye!
link to youtube.com
corries The Dawning Of The Day
Dave McEwan Hill @4.07
Yes stirring stuff but needs to be a bit more up tempo. Love the pipes.
The European anthem- Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy”- is terrific.
Personally, I’m not fussed if they sing either verse 2 or 3 since I feel the piece has lost its value since 2014 after Scotland decided to remain with the Union. The perception of ‘No’ voters or even that of Orange Loyalists belting out the line that ‘…we can still rise now, And be the nation again’ is rather hollow; especially from the Orangeman who has no intention of ever seeking Scotland to be a nation again.
I think the killer line in the article for me is the point that Wishart makes about Munro detesting Flower of Scotland. Right there is the argument; if true, that Munro should not be allowed to sing it. Firstly, if you don’t like something and you strongly disagree with it, then you simply don’t do it. It’s a simple thing called principles.
Secondly, if Munro is getting paid to sing it even though he is loathe to doing it, then that is also rubbing salt into the wounds. Why are the SFA (as well as the fans themselves) paying for someone to sing an anthem that the singer doesn’t agree with. That’s just being hypocritical on the singer’s part as well as betraying very said principles.
To be honest, we really need someone to write us a decent anthem that would be on similar lines as that of the English hymn ‘Jerusalem’. A piece that highlights not only the great changes of the 18th and 19th century, but what was really lost as people were removed from the land and were forced into the towns and cities or into emigration …and yet for all that, the Scottish people continued to thrive. That is our modern history right there! Keep away from mountains, glens and battles with England, but instead, focus on the Scottish ability to persevere through adversity.
Just my wee opinion.
re new anthem
something in gaelic would suitably wind up the britnats 🙂
link to youtube.com
chi me na morbheanna
. Why are the SFA (as well as the fans themselves) paying for someone to sing an anthem that the singer doesn’t agree with.
It is over a decade old this? SLab still owned and ruled Scotland like a region, still intend to, too!
Although if the SFA was an actual performance based business, there would have been huge changes to it all by now, at the top.
This is something to watch Andre Rueu, a lump in the throat every time I watch it.
link to youtube.com
Lucky enough to see the Corries twice. How they sung Flower of Scotland is quite distinct and awe inspiring.
Until it came along I remember being at a Hampden – footy match with folk going dee de dee daada dee deee darumpa dara dumpdee dada– or something similar.
Let’s make it clear that God Save the Queen—- and lets crush/murder the Scots is not an acceptable anthem to be played in Scotland.
Lucky enough to see the Corries twice. How they sung Flower of Scotland is quite distinct and awe inspiring.
Until it came along I remember being at a Hampden – footy match with folk going dee de dee daada dee deee darumpa dara dumpdee dada– or something similar.
Let’s make it clear that God Save the Queen—- and lets crush/murder the Scots is not an acceptable anthem to be played in Scotland at any event.
OT this will get right up BritNat and Brextremist noses!
Breaking news ….
The political truce over Northern Ireland’s post-Brexit status threatens to be shattered this week, as the EU publishes a draft withdrawal agreement that leaves out crucial compromise language secured by British prime minister Theresa May. ….. entail the province accepting a range of EU customs and single market rules, including future changes, policed by the EU and interpreted by EU courts. One senior EU diplomat who had seen the draft protocol on Ireland said it was “a long way of explaining what a border looks like along the Irish Sea”.”
The EU border in the Irish Sea. Sounds fair enough, but TMay’s supporting act in the DUP will go spare.
link to archive.is
I’m with Dave McEwans proposal it’s got national anthem written all over it beautiful tune and being French would really get up the Britnats noses
I can’t see a problem with either auld lang syne or Scots wha hae, even if they are known around the world. In many ways that would be a good thing – a bit like Scotland finally laying claim to what is hers.
Coming around to the idea of Scots Wha hae. Think it would make a great Scottish anthem.
Re anthem. I like to think I’ve an ear for a tune (aye, it’d maybe be better if I had two), but I’ve heard ‘Freedom Come All Ye’ on several occasions and cannot remember the tune seconds after it’s finished. Imho, it’s a dirge.(Enough to make you check your funeral plan payts are up to date :-b) Canny imagine football or rugby crowds singing it without losing spirit, even if they could remember the tune.
Auld Lang Syne’s good and known the world over as representing Scots and everyone can sing it. It’s also played in Japanese shopping malls at closing time.
Maybe we should ask The Proclaimers to write it, they are very good at the anthemic (is that a word?) e.g. ‘500 Miles’, ‘Postcard from America’ and, even just typing ‘Sunshine on Leith’ I’ve got goose bumps. Heard the boys in concert on telly recently – everyone knew the words (well they would I suppose)but SOL sounded so good from the crowd and also heard it at Easter Rd too (on TV)and the fans singing it, fantastic. So I’m sure the boys could pen something rousing, easy to sing and a bit more modern. Maybe the Red Hot Chili Pipers could be involved too?
(no, I will not now run and hide behind the settee).
Strikes me that a National anthem picks itself. I’m not aware of any formal strategy to have Flower of Scotland adopted as an anthem, but I do remember the whistles and jeers which GSTQ got from the terraces at Murrayfield, and the thoroughly enjoyable sense of rebellion that singing Flower of Scotland inspired. It’s not because of what it was, but very much what it was not.
If memory serves, and it may be wrong, I seem to recall Flower of Scotland was played by the Queen Victoria School bands before the National Anthem, as a sop to those about to jeer and whistle at the “official” GSTQ, and then later, it became the adopted anthem. It was an organic popular process… or at least it seemed to be.
It may not be the best song to have as an anthem, some don’t like it for pace, but good luck to any alternative song choice trying to muscle its way into the Nation’s psyche and replace Flower of Scotland.
But no matter what “song” is the anthem, as Dave McEwan Hill links to above, there is something tremendous happens in your heart and head when those pipes start to play that no mere song is ever going to emulate.
The pipes, indeed the pipes playing just about “anything” is Scotland’s National Anthem.
But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Let’s worry about the National Anthem after the National humiliation of this damned joke of a Union has been brought to an end. When the fat lady sings, my money says she’ll be singing Flower of Scotland.
Just to set the matter to rights. The anthem claimed as variously the British, and/or English National Anthem first made an appearance in, “The Gentleman’s Magazine”, of October 1745.
It was written as a prayer to God, (obviously it was thus the distinctly English God version), to save King George, (and London of course), from the armed Forces of Prince Charles Edward Stewart who, at that time was well down through England on his way to claim back the still fairly young United Kingdom crown(s), that were rightfully his.
The Gentleman’s Magazine printed the full prayer as a Song for Two Voices:-
link to books.google.co.uk
It was subsequently then performed in the two most popular London Theatres including The Drury Lane Theatre.
It contained this verse:-
Lord grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory Bring!
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King!
If you bother to research further you will turn up several later, some quite modern, attempts to rubbish these facts and quoting stuff you will not find to be true if you are determined to actually follow all the quoted links.
The truth is that there were several versions of the original tune, and not just in England. It was a traditional folk song. Thus many version with different lyrics – but none that bore the slightest resemblance to an English National Anthem.
The first in print version was in the October 1745 Gentleman’s Magazine and the first actual performances slightly later in the Drury Lane Theatre.
If you really want to study these claims here is a link to The Gentleman’s Magazine Archives:-
link to onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu
There are lots of really fascinating things in those archives on every subject known to mankind in the years the magazine was in print. Much of the Archives are, (where else), held in the USA.
Love Flower of Scotland and memories of Ronnie Browne and Roy Williamson – the great man who wrote it, and sadly died too young. Lots of fine songs that could be our anthem – Freedom come a’ ye is great too but there’s a line in Caledonia that does it for me. We want independence and we want to move forward so “lost the friends that I needed losing” is prophetic. A song of travel and love of native heath as well – brilliant. And by the way i’m not related to Dougie!
Personally, I couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket. So I’ll pass on having an opinion over national ditties.
As for those who’d rather not sing one because… reasons and it’s splittist. I hope they understand that works both ways. Some folk may not feel like warbling along to GSTQ for plenty of similar reasons.
They may not believe in the concept of royalty. They may even be of the secular persuasion and so on two grounds wouldn’t be particularly fussed over standing to attention with a tear in eye. They may even suffer from the same affliction as myself and frighten dogs two towns over with their vocal efforts.
Regardless, if they set a standard of disregarding other folks’ idea of a popular singalong? They’d best be sure it’s a principle they’re willing to understand and support in those others.
@Dan Huil says: 25 February, 2018 at 1:55 pm:
“It’s starting… no, it’s continuing:
There are more obvious holes shown in that article than their are in a tea strainer, Dan.
But perhaps the most stupid is the claim about differences, “between the four United Kingdom Nations. So if each country in the United Kingdom is a nation in its own right what does that make the United Kingdom?
So what is this numptie claiming the United Kingdom is?
Is it a country, is it four countries, is it a nation, is it four nations, is it a state or is it four states?
It is, just what its title describes it as, a two partner union of equally sovereign kingdoms. Not as run by Westminster as the de facto country of England as a master race devolving a few useless powers of the English parliament to three of the four countries contained in the only two kingdoms that form the United Kingdom.
@Robert Peffers 6.27
So, basically GSTK(Q) is a German anthem.
Maybe our anthem should be 2 minutes silence in memory of all the Scots who died fighting for freedom from the English, Englands wars,Darien, austerity and all the other horrors brought on by this farce of a union
It is the hypocrisy @Robert Peffers says at 6:53 pm that is never commented on.
Brexit = England leaving ‘an unfair’ political union and ‘taking back control’
Scots Indy = vile Separatism rather than a country leaving ‘an unfair’ political union and ‘taking back control’
@Liz g says: 25 February, 2018 at 3:12 pm:
“While I could get on board with the tune….
Do we really want to sing about “the broken hearted” mind it is all aboot the “soldier” who didn’t get away?”
Well, actually, Liz g, the reason that the singer will, “be in Scotland”, afore the other Scot is because that High Road he is taking means Heaven on high, ‘cos he’s dead.
While his friend is having to trek while still alive all the long route via the Queen’s/King’s highway, (probably the old A1 Great North Road) frae London aa the way north.
Which is also why he and his true love will not meet again by Loch Lomond.
Do we really want to sing an anthem about such a tragic matter?
I do not have a settled opinion on what Scotland’s anthem should be once independent – there are good candidates mentioned above and there is always the possibility of having an old tune with new words or a new tune and words.
But I do have two criteria:
(i) it should NOT be an anthem that defines Scotland by its relationship (past/present/future) with England – I’ve personally had more than my fill of this limiting factor for most of my life. So although Flower of Scotland is a grand song when sung well (and should continue to be sung often), as an anthem it fails this crucial test for me completely; and
(ii) our anthem should also avoid backward looking ‘militarism’ but rather emphasise forward looking aspiration and values of progressive internationalism. I’ve worked hard to learn ‘The Freedom Come All Ye’ and find the sentiments it expresses very inspirational. I’ve enjoyed singing it at smallish events when it caused the spine to tingle! Whether in its present form its satisfies an anthem’s need also to be readily ‘singable’ I’m (regrettably) not sure. But then I’m not a music composer/arranger.
Until recently Scots Wha Hae was sung at the end of the SNP Conference. It has been quietly dropped.
It’s a great shame. Derek Mackay should lead us in a rousing rendition of it.
Can’t see the Republic of Ireland doing any favours for Westminster britnats in the near future. Nor should they:
link to irishtimes.com
Heck. It was all downhill since he taught art at Tynie, way back. Never thought he was a New Labour muppet, but there you go.
It’s no wonder Scotland loses so many internationals, both rugby and football. ‘Flower of Scotland’ is a dirge, just as bad as ‘God save the Queen’. It’s slow, down beat and humble. How we ‘fought for our wee bit hill and glen’ – what peasants that makes us look! It tells of once beating the bully king of a bully nation and sending him ‘hame tae think again’ – what a singular triumph!
Like the English National Anthem, it does not mention the astounding majesty of the place or the character of the people. The English talk about saving their monarch, keeping her ‘happy’ and ‘glorious, long to rule over us’, and ‘sending her victorious’ to put down some benighted poorly-armed people. Not a single mention of the country or the people living in it.
Ours is based on ancient history – not modern Scotland and its people
Most other anthems in the world talk about the people and the country. The Norwegians sing about ‘How we love this land with its rugged coast’, ‘How we love this land with its thousand homes’ It only goes on later to tell of how it defended its nation with a small population. The French proudly talk about the ‘children of the native land’ with a really upbeat tune that I wish that we had for ours.
Let’s have ‘Scotland the Brave’ with its upbeat tune and description of the country and our love for it.
Talking of stuff from ten years ago..
Haven’t seen any Lib Dems about for ages now, no wonder mind, having Willie Rennie as your leader and also having to listen that really old fashioned Tory bloke, Vince who’s more right wing than New Labour.
It’s about time they and the Labour PiS had new leadership elections- so they can at least be on the telly.
Robert Peffers @ 7.16
I had understood the High road to be the road that the fairies would take his sprit back to Scotland on, and yes the low road was the much slower mortal road back.
But I don’t know how I knew that so couldn’t really argue it
But I do agree that it is no really a that suited for our national anthem…..having said that……after GSTQ masquerading as our so called National Anthem…..the only way is up,is it no?
Hope you’re doing ok Robert
Morning all hehe.
Hey Liz g 🙂 🙂 🙂
Here’s one for everybuddy (2,349,239)
link to youtube.com
Scotland.
WIN.
Music: In our pub jamming sessions whenever Freedom Come Ye All is sung it is met with stoney silence.Nice sentiments in the lyrics, but no thanks.
Scots Wha Hae has history behind it, no bad thing. I’m sure the French would be pleased for Scotland to adopt it as our anthem. Try humming/ singing/playing/swinging it with a Latin American rhythm. Fair lifts it.
At the French/Scotland game at Murrayfield I did enjoy bawling out By Yon Bonnie Banks. A contender for me.
Auld lang Syne, well that would be a winner surely.
Flower of Scotland maybe has had it’s day.
Tierney? I didn’t see him listed on the bench at Murrayfield. Oops.
I knew he was Labour and Unionist but always found that a bit odd in the light some of the Runrig lyrics particularly for Ard and A**a. What did he think when playing in front of a sea of saltires probably waved by nationalists?
taigh mor falamh an Dun Eidin
gun chumhachd gun ghuth
and
Seo an deicheamh la dhan a’Ghiblean sinn fo ghruaim a rithist
An co-dhunadh a cheannaich na daoine aig pris
Gheibh sinn ar n-aite ‘san t-saoghal
‘S an ginealach ur
I suppose we read what we want into these things. He was probably just pro-devolution.
I think FOS has definitely lost some of its lustre since the spine tingling grand slam win of 1990. I agree with another poster though that it’s part of the Scottish psyche now I doubt it will ever be replaced. It still packed a punch being sung yesterday by the emotional crowd as the English were failing to breach our line in the last 5 minutes.
Gordon,
‘Wee bit hill and glen’ as you say, isn’t ‘peasant’ and doesn’t conjure that image with me. Sure there was misery across Europa for 1000 years but peasantry was a bit like poverty, it depends, it’s relative.
WEE BIT HILL AND GLEN, pal, is pure utopian hope, socialist-enlightenment,
you know, no oppressions, just that wee bit for everyone to live off, worth fighting, even dying for.
Overall FoS can feel a bit slow but has enough colour in the lyrics to have something for all ages
For example- the excellent ‘SENT-WHO!’ and ‘WANK-ERS!’ millenials sections.
Look across the English channel for the world’s greatest anthem.
Re Fos, loved it in the seventies, grew tired of it in the noughties, was all for getting it replaced until i saw the video on fb showing a very tired and emotional Greg Laidlaw and Finn Russel belting it it out last night with very passionate gusto, including some sweary words telling Proud Edwards Army where to go 🙂 sorry dont know how to share it but if the pair of them are yoons i will eat my rugby top 🙂
@Liz g says: 25 February, 2018 at 7:41 pm:
“I had understood the High road to be the road that the fairies would take his sprit back to Scotland on, and yes the low road was the much slower mortal road back.”
There was a long and detailed article about the song on the web that I read some years ago.
My own feelings are that after independence is won back there is almost certain to be a great upsurge in the arts in Scotland and I’ve no doubts that there will also be a great upsurge in Scottish sentiments that will produce our new Scottish Anthem.
“But I don’t know how I knew that so couldn’t really argue it
But I do agree that it is no really a that suited for our national anthem…..having said that……after GSTQ masquerading as our so called National Anthem…..the only way is up, is it no?”
It most certainly is.
“Hope you’re doing ok Robert”
Well not really, it’s going to take a very long time to get over this particular sad setback.
Scots Wha Hae,
all the way,
(we’re not RA OR UDA)
Na na na nana na nana nana.
It’s an old one. Upsetting only bigots.
All sorts of approaches to creating anthems available, another competition?
O/T
“……hold onto your hats, because we could be moving into the endgame for the Union.”
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Rt Hon David Lidington MP, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster “…is to warn the Scottish government it could cause the British economy to become “disjointed…..said negotiations could be damaged if a successful deal is not reached over the return of EU powers to Holyrood after Brexit. The MP will stress the need for common rules and regulations across all parts of the UK.”
link to archive.is
It’s coming for aw that.
The ‘UK Single Market’ bollocks will be the excuse that the BritNats will use and it will fuck Devolution and end the Union.
🙂
The fact that the BBC in Scotland used to run an (almost ) annual competition to come up with a replacement, suggests to me that we should hang on to FOS until after Independence.
Remember reading Gary Neville recount how on hearing FOS for the 1st time at Hampden the hairs stood up on the back of his neck.
Oh aye and Me @at 8:21 pm
“The Duchy of Lancaster is, since 1399, the private estate of the British sovereign as Duke of Lancaster.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Establishment BritNat Rt Hon David Lidington MP is also the Queens administrator of the estates and rents of the Duchy of Lancaster.
“The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is appointed by the Sovereign on the advice of the Prime Minister.”
Probably in a minority here but I think FoS should be our national anthem for the simple reason everybody knows it and can belt it out ‘with feeling’, even if its not the best words. Its the common mans anthem and I think that is important. For the best message, I would actually choose A man’s a man for a’ that.
I think its important that we have something that is inclusive for all of us majority of musical dunces who cant remember a tune to save ourselves.
My fear is we will end up with some dirge designed by a committee of ‘music experts’ that is instantly forgettable, ignoring all the wonderful songs we already have.
Here’s the pre-1918 German national anthem – remind you of anything?
link to upload.wikimedia.org
” we can still rise now, And be the nation AGAIN”
Which means Scotland STOPPED being a nation a long time ago.
So much for Robert Peffers’ “two nations” shite.
There is only one political nation left, the United Kingdom, which is a member of the EU etc.
As the UK is basically an English show, Scotland has been nothing more than a colony of England for the last 311 years.
Scotland has ZERO say on Brexit, as confirmed by the Supreme Court of the UK.
Pretendy “sovereign” Scots will never put their money where their mouths are by challenging the UK Supreme Court in the highest court of Scotland because their “sovereign” and “independent justice system” myths would be bust once and for all if they did.
Before independence, Scots are neither “sovereign” nor a nation.
Lenny-maybe you mistyped but FOS has actuallly only very recently been used. The Scottish football team was using Scotland the brave in the eighties and I think 1990 was the first time it was played at Murrayfield. It certainly wasn’t used in the 1970’s. GSTQ was played at the 1974 WC finals in West Germany and booed loudly much to the attending Harold Wilsons annoyance!
Let’s get the Sunday passion going…
You already have it Scotland:
link to youtube.com
link to songfacts.com
“Ewe-glass”
Use it.
Oh Donnie, Donnie, Donnie… haste ye back tae be with us.
Now please Wingers, nobody tell Rock about this wee web link when he clocks on tonight.
It might upset him and we cannot have that now – can we?
Well can we?
Joemcg, sorry I was talking about the song in the seventies not its adoption as National Anthem, to confuse matters I was talking about its use as National Anthem in the nougties!
As others have alluded to upthread , What really p’s me off is engerlands insistence that they speak for ALL the devolved nations , why can’t they understand that they are not the masters of the universe , people have differences of opinion this is not a treeza tolie dictatorship (as much as they want it to be )
Why can’t these numbnuts not understand it is not all about them , there like wee kids insisting that when they need to go to the toilet everyone has to go with them , just in case the other kids want to play a different game or they talk about them behind their back
If engerland want to come out the EU no one is stopping them but this insistence that everyone goes with them is a sign of desperation , to me the poor wee souls (sarcasm )are suffering from a lack of confidence , this brash and bluster is to hide the fact that they’re scared , scared that it will backfire scared that they need someone to hold their hand , scared that they will lose their delusional position that they count for something , scared that they lose the rich resources of Scotland
Engerland grow a pair and go it alone prove that you are a world power ( ha ha ) and show us sweaty socks that you are not wee scaredy cats
For attractive lips,speak words of kindness.
For lovely eyes,seek out the good in people.
For a slim figure,share your food with the hungry.
For beautiful hair,let a child run his or her fingers
through it once a day.
For poise,walk with the knowledge that you never walk alone.
People,even more than things,have to be restored,renewed,revived,
reclaimed and redeemed, never throw out anyone.
Remember,if you ever need a helping hand,you’ll find one at the end of each of your arms.
As you grow older,you will discover that you have two hands,one
for helping yourself,the other for helping others.
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 8:20 pm
““Hope you’re doing ok Robert”
Well not really, it’s going to take a very long time to get over this particular sad setback.”
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 9:23 pm
“Now please Wingers, nobody tell Rock about this wee web link when he clocks on tonight.
It might upset him and we cannot have that now – can we?
Well can we?”
Didn’t take “a very long time” after all, did it? You aggressive verbal bully.
Rev – time to pull the plug? See btl 9.44p.m.
You saw it
You claimed it
You touched it
You saved it
The Proclaimers have no need to write a ‘new’ anthem.
Sorry Rock,
You have managed to interpret the words of Flower of Scotland incorrectly because you failed to include the whole relevant phrase ” be THE Nation again that stood against him”. This quite clearly means that although Scotland is still a nation, they want it to be the strong nation that it was when it stood against the English Army.
Just as the phrase ” be THE man again that you once were” does not mean that you ever stopped being a man.
I trust this clarifies things for you.
Hi Cactus at 7:51pm.
I tried replying to you here but post was rejected. You can read it here:-
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Personally I’m not that keen on anthems in general. Some nice tune perhaps with no lyrics but with roots in old Scottish music would do, or if we must have words I’d got for “A man’s a man” by Burns.
I like FoS but my favourite is the Paolo Nutini version of “For a’ that and a’ that”. I could also be persuaded to ‘Caledonia’.
The last one has emotional memories for me – at Christmas 2014 I was at my grand-daughter’ school show (which had a Scottish theme at New Year).
When they sang ‘Caledonia’ I remember trying not to listen to the words to fight back the tears, my daughter-in-law succumbed to the tears. She is also a big fan of Paolo Nutini.
Sorry don’t know how to post his version on here.
The last word upon sovereignty is always that of the people and every former monarchy, failed political system and failed dictatorship is proof of that very fact.
When the sovereign monarchy that was Louis XVI of France and Queen Maria Antoinette was in power the people of France exercised their sovereignty and the resulting French revolution swept away the monarchy and aristocracy of France and created a republic.
The French Revolution saw the people overthrew the monarchy and take control of the government. The French Revolution lasted 10 years, (from 1789 to 1799).
As did the people of Russia who also swept away the Russian Aristocracy in another violent revolution.
When the people of the then 13 original states of North America exercised their people’s sovereignty they swept away the sovereignty claimed over those 13 states, (1775–1783), by what was then, “The Kingdom of Great Britain”, (officially then just called simply, “Great Britain)”, and Great Britain then was a sovereign state in western Europe from 1 May 1707 to 31 December 1800.
So there is the hard brittle truth about legal sovereignty that seems to have escaped the intellects of those in power at Westminster today – No matter whatever else the present legal system in any sovereign state is, monarchy, republic or dictatorship that tries to assert its sovereignty the common people under that sovereignty will have the ultimate say – and often many may well die in their efforts to assert their, “popular sovereignty”, but the people will always win in the end.
Sovereignty is the preserve of those who take it and hold it. Bear in mind that the sovereign authority in North Korea is Kim Jong Un.
A News item on 8 Oct 2017 – from Seoul: North Korean leader Kim Jong Un says his nuclear weapons are a “powerful deterrent” which guarantee North Korea’s sovereignty, hours after US President Donald Trump said “only one thing will work” in dealing with that isolated country.
Get the picture? Sovereignty belongs to those who take it and ultimately that will always be the majority of the people.
Paolo Nutini
A Man’s A Man For A’ That
link to youtube.com
And for good measure
Paolo Nutini
Caledonia
link to youtube.com
All eyes will be on Alex McLeish when he takes up his post as Scotland manager and has to pretend to proudly sing:
“But we can still rise now
And be the Nation again”
I am sure it will go viral on Twitter.
And he deserves all the grief that will no doubt follow it.
Flower of Scotland is regularly the top anthem when supporters asked for preference. Once we are independent it will be replaced.
And someone should ask BBC why their sub titles always miss out the line We can still rise now and be a nation again?
I really don’t feel a great need for any attachment to a National anthem but obviously see it’s purpose when representing Scotland particularly at sporting events.
Don’t think they’re played much more often other then maybe state dignitary visits.
For that reason I would go along with the suggestion of Liz g of Auld Lang Syne. It is immediately recognisable as Scottish and written by Scotland’s greatest poet so has that historical reference too.
It is meant to symbolise old endings and new beginnings, a good start for an Independent Scotland.
Sarah @ 9.47
I wouldn’t worry too much Sarah….
Robert’s not going to get upset by Rock.
If I’m right and Rock does have Narcissistic Personality Disorder,he won’t even see or accept how off colour goading a recently bereaved father is.
Best ignored or he will just try to Gaslight you.
Robert will either ignore him or play with him for a bit.
But since Rocks wee issue is a personality thing there’s no help for it but to let him fester.
He will no change unless and until he accepted he actually has issues…… and even if he did …..we’re no his bloody therapists.
O/T the neutral expert Lucy Hunter Blackburn the BBC chose to pour cold water on the amount of Scottish student debt being much less than in England is of course a leading member of the London based anti Scottish independence group These Islands.
link to these-islands.co.uk
@ Roger upthread. Good grief that was scarily familiar.
I think it’s a bit previous to be talking about a national anthem. I’d rather be independent first.
Then we could choose or commission something to suit the times.
Runrig?, if you want Celtic rock, Wolfstone blow them off the stage.
No comment on Scotland gubbing the whingers, as I still hold the Hastings sisters and their pals guilty at 2014, never forget as the old saying goes.
@Liz g – thanks, Liz, I feel better about it now you’ve explained. [I’m a softy!]
@Rock says: 25 February, 2018 at 9:44 pm:
Really, really hilarious, isn’t it.
On comes Rock and immediately bullies me and laughably accuses me of being the bully.
You couldn’t make this crap of his up if you had not read it with your own eyes. I’ve been mostly ignoring him for a considerable time, yet he has continued with the same bully boy tactics in spite of being ignored.
Now here’s the point, If I make a claim about anything I either cite some proofs or explain the logic or both. Rock just attempts to bully everyone and never quotes a proof or makes a logical argument.
This example tonight is typical of the person, I say person for there is no indication of whether it is male, female indeterminate or indeed if it is a bot for it hides behind a nom de guerre.
Note her/his/its post on sovereignty here tonight – it is a statement, at best an opinion, and nothing more.
Contrast that with what I posted on the subject of popular sovereignty in which I not only explain what sovereignty is but cite several examples and explain why all sovereignty is the people’s sovereignty for the people either agree to accept the sovereignty they live under or they take over control. Logically sovereignty only exists by the will of the people it governs.
Now the bit Rock is attempting to justify by simply denying that the people of Scotland are sovereign and that my claims that when, not if, there is a majority of the people of Scotland who withdraw the people’s sovereignty from Westminster and transfer it to a government they have elected for Scotland then, short of attempted armed force, there isn’t a bloody thing that Westminster will be able to do about it.
I just cannot see the Kingdom of England getting away with armed force. Though they may try. Not only are there many Scots in the UK armed forces but the EU, UN and much of the Commonwealth would oppose the Kingdom of England. Talk about chickens coming home to roost? By far Scotland’s biggest export to the World has been the people of Scotland.
There are a great many of the Worlds people of Scottish descent.
Thepnr @ 10.32
Didn’t actually think of that ….but yes yer right.
The author/composer of Auld Lang Syne would, or at least should, be uncontroversial domestically.
Certainly well respected internationally.
What I liked aboot it was the….here’s a huan/hand o’mine,line.
That says,I think, what we want to say to the world.
Sarah @ 10.54
No worries Sarah….The thing aboot stretching a hand out to someone (and many have tried) is that they have to reach back.
Not ridicule you for tryin.
O/T
I read this evening that Nigel Dodds of the DUP has said the following about N.Ireland and Stormont:
Speaking on ITV’s Peston programme on Sunday, Mr Dodds said he “confidently” expected that UK government ministers would soon take decisions on public spending in Northern Ireland. ( budget decision needs to be taken in 2 weeks)
Now is that wishful thinking or prophesy? Do they know something Sinn Fein doesn’t?
Perhaps they’ll not be just quite so cocky if they read the latest document from the EU which basically says .. ‘ if the UK goes out of the Customs’ Union then there has to be a border in the Sea between the island of Great Britain and the island of Ireland to allow the Good Friday Agreement to hold’
Re-unified Ireland anyone?
@Liz g
Yes, the words are all about friendship and that is why it’s sung at New Year, well across the English speaking world at least.
Goodbye to the old and welcome to the New is the message, very much looks like the message a newly Independent country should be sending to the rest of the world 🙂
Thanks Mike Cassidy for those 2 videos. I knew a winger would come up with them.
Donnie Munro has previous at trying to change songs which reflect the nationalist spirit of Scotland. After all, he omitted the verse in Runrig’s version of ‘Loch Lomond’, which spoke of “fighting for the King and Prince Charlie”.
‘Loch Lomond’ was a Jacobite war song (as made famous by the immortal Corries), and yet yoons like Munro have the gall to try to rewrite history by changing verses or omitting them altogether.
Meg merrilees @ 11.04
Reunified Ireland – definitely on the cards.
Thepnr @ 11.07
Well noo yer gettin me aw sentimental aboot it…
It’s like we gave it to the world to sing and keep safe for us, now we need it back to sing to the world
@Sarah / Liz g
Don’t forget the Rev likes cats, and cats like to give their humans presents to play with.
Which, errr, nicely fits the article the Rev links to 🙂
@ Mike Cassidy His version of “A man’s a man for a’ that” fairly gets your blood pumping. I hadn’t heard of him before. Now I can’t get the song out of my head. Thanks.
Scots Wa Hae is an old 12th or 13th century tune called Hey Tuti Tuti
It has been used for a few different songs over the years.
As far as an anthem any Nation that has a Unicorn as its national animal should have an equally exciting anthem
@Capella says: 25 February, 2018 at 10:49 pm:
“I think it’s a bit previous to be talking about a national anthem. I’d rather be independent first.”
The whole point about taking back our independence is that legally Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England are distinct nations and distinct countries in their own right.
The history being that England, (the kingdom of), illegally annexed Wales by the, “Statute of Rhuddlan”, in 1284. Be aware that this statute was not by the Parliament of England but by royal proclamation. English Royal troops just beat Welsh troops and the king of England proclaimed that Wales was part of the Kingdom of England but that only made the country of Wales part of the Kingdom of England not an integral part of the country of England.
The Holy Roman Se appointed the King of England as Lord of Ireland as Rome did not like the direction the Christian Church of Ireland was going and then, in 1542, the English king forced the parliament of Ireland to pass the crown of Ireland act that placed the Crown of Ireland upon the King of England’s head. Again that did not make the country of Ireland part of the country of England it made it part of the Kingdom of England.
In the case of Scotland the English, by illegal means forced the Treaty of Union after trying to claim Scotland by the so called Union of the Crowns but the two Kingdoms, (not countries), remained independent. Which was why the English Parliament not the English monarchy, (England had become a Constitutional Monarchy by that time), had to force the Treaty of Union and that did not stop Scotland being a distinct country as it was a union of Kingdoms not of countries.
Yet now Westminster claims that the Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom. That means, even if it were true, that Scotland remains a distinct country.
So there really is no legal reason to split up a bipartite United Kingdom as four devolved countries with Westminster as the de facto parliament of England.
In other words there are still four distinct countries, (nations), in the United Kingdom and thus, (including the country of Ireland), each nation is entitled to use a national anthem of its own, (and that includes England).
@Indyref2 – Hoots mon! I enjoyed reading that and will go off to sleep in a better frame of mind.
But I still like Michael Marra’s “Hermless”…. would put everyone in a good mood!
Did someone say the “Freedom Come A’Ye” was tuneless? Try this from Robyn Stapleton
link to youtube.com
Luke Kelly and Dick Gaughan (5 Hand Reel) do great versions as well.
Douglas Ross Tory MP for Moray. Needs to decide if he is a politician or a referee. Short changing the voters of Moray
link to caltonjock.com
Things appear to be bubbling up nicely as far as Scotland/UK relationships go. Apparently some Tory supposedly deputy David Lidington is to tell us tomorrow that:
“…striking trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world will be impossible if devolved governments refuse to accept that Westminster retains an effective veto over as many as 25 powers currently held by Brussels, in areas including agriculture, fisheries, the environment and public procurement.”
Best bit though is that they are no longer talking of the UK “Single Market” it has morphed into the UK “Common Market”.
Pledging to protect the “common market” of the UK, Mr Lidington will say: “That market is one of the fundamental expressions of the constitutional integrity that underpins our existence as a union.”
Battle plans must be drawn up now to defeat this crap about UK single or common market as it’s obvious that this will be the strongest point of attack when the next referendum comes around.
link to archive.is
Thepnr
Yes I read that article about David Liddington? going to tell us we’ve to get back in our place and do as we’re told from now on, England is sorting out Brexit and we’ve to behave.
Can’t imagine Mike Russell will sit down and do as he’s told, nor Nicola and possibly not even (t)Ruthless, who, as we all know has been consulting T May privately to get the best deal for Scotland – isn’t that supposed to be the role of the Secretary of State against Scotland – Fluffy? Ah! but he’s not in the picture, literally. This last week of February could be the week that it all starts to unravel for Treesa!
—————–
Plenty in the english papers about Corbyn the snake-oil merchant; milk from US cows with udder disease likely to be on the shelves in Britain post Brexit and a catastrophe looming for farming – wonder what ‘squirrels’ the Scottish papers will have for headlines:
Scotsman “SNP demands put Brexit trade and future of the UK at risk.”
Herald ” Catholic church savaged after it opposes smacking ban”
Thepnr
just read your archived article in the Scotsman…
I think the paper has made a mistake in this paragraph – surly they’ve missed out the word ‘NOT’ in the sentence ..
“Scottish ministers said they will NOT let WM retain powers that allow…”
..”But in a sign of deepening division, Scottish ministers said they will let Westminster retain powers that allow the “hard right” to set the agenda for trade deals that could affect food standards, environmental protections and the health service in Scotland.”
They had me worried for a bit!
slightly off-topic people but here’s the latest on the UK Withdrawal agreement,as legally drawn up by the EU.
The document should be released on Tues or Wed of this week.
Things are proceeding apace as the EU staff don’t waste any time and M Barnier seems determined to complete his task of properly shepherding the UK out of the EU within the allotted time
I don’t know what Scotland is going to do. If she wants to stay in the EU, there might not be a lot of time left for her to decide on how to accomplish that.
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
As some of you will know I’m a musician and recorded my own version of Scots wa hae some years ago but seldom had the occasion to play it live for all the obvious reasons but one thing I do know about any anthem for any country is that no matter what it is most of the people will get behind it most of the time
In the case of Scotland whatever the anthem is on the day of Independence for our country it’ll shake the foundations of the world and the reverberations of it will rocket Scotland towards a new place of prosperity and recognition in the world
And we’ll all sing it as loud as we can whatever the hell the song is wae tears blindin us
Dr Jim @ 1.57
Yes ….totally agree…
No matter what it turn’s out to be,I think everyone will get behind it.
And a few years in there’s probably no one who could think it could have been anything else.
But isn’t it so much fun to be having the conversion!
OK, here’s my tuppence-worth re national anthem:
Flower of Scotland is a dirge and, according to Mr Stuck, unplayable on the pipes, but at least also has Gaelic words on it.
I love Freedom Come All Ye but as far as I am aware there is no Gaelic version and many Scots find the words and tune unfamiliar.
Highland Cathedral is a REAL dirge.
Scots Wha Hae hardly represents the forward thinking that we need for 21st- century Scotland.
What about Big Country’s “Harvest Home”? It has that wonderful chorus line of “just as you sow you shall reap”, which to me embodies something of our psyche, but more importantly we could all bounce about happily whenever it’s played.
Ok. I’ll get ma coat….
Stuckdoonhame @ 3.26
Don’t be so fast getting yer coat.
Tell us more!!!
Can ye do a link?
Also who are Big Country?
But most importantly….. Whit is all this “Bouncing”,aboot and would the Royal Family be required to do it,if they want to keep the honours of Scotland?
What aboot the..Moderator Of The General Assembly Of The Church Of Scotland….VIPs (Trump), Nicola would be fine but.. Ruthie…. seriously?
I could really get on board with this….
Cactus ….back me up here!!
Aye aye Liz g & stuckdoonhame ~
Here’s Harvest Home:
link to youtube.com
17th February 1984
The Tube.
Cactus @ 5.06
Thank you,Sir
I mind them now.
This is most definitely a contender..IMHO…
What say you Cactus?
Is definitely one for the hat, we could have a country-wide vote on it following the announcement of our iScotref.
Auld Lang Syne still at the top of the charts for me 🙂
We could be in for a
BrUKexit showdown this week!All to PLAY for.
All to WIN.
Cactus @ 5.34
Aye…Auld Lang Syne….By a Country Mile!
And Winning is THE only option,this week will suit us fine.
Isn’t it great to be ” talkin” weeks..LO really L..
Keep on Keepin on my friend…take care of you!
Night pal X
Try this wee jig…
New Moon and Moonshine:
link to youtube.com
A keen fisherman is Gregor.
Welsh Sion @ 12.18pm
You have quite a talent!
A braw updating =)
While Petra is enjoying a well-earned break from Wings, here’s some news from The Independence-supporting National but I’m too lazy to give a synposis.
Pensioners for Independence to relaunch with meeting in Edinburgh
link to thenational.scot
Yes events highlight the growing grassroots indy movement
link to thenational.scot
Russell: We’ll bring in our own laws to keep us in single market
link to thenational.scot
ben madigan says:
26 February, 2018 at 1:37 am
…..I don’t know what Scotland is going to do. If she wants to stay in the EU, there might not be a lot of time left for her to decide on how to accomplish that.
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
I hope, for the love of God, that our Scottish Government finally starts playing hardball, and at last converts these tragic threats to Scotland’s economic welfare into tangible, inflexible, and non-negotiable Union-busting ultimatums for Westminster.
It seems tragic to me that Scotland seems to be riding piggy back on the difficult circumstances in Northern Ireland to warrant special consideration for Scotland merely on the grounds of parity with another devolved administration. Why don’t we have our foot on the neck of Westminster using our own and unique constitutional sovereignty? We do realise that the “parity with Northern Ireland” argument means Regional Status for Scotland beneath Westminster Government with a few soft Brexit baubles for trade and to save our blushes?
Ah, but Northern Ireland is a powder keg and needs delicate handling! Yeah? Well what the feck is Scotland? A wet lettuce?
Screw that. Let us start acting like we are a nation. Get Scotland, the ancient Nation unique in all Christendom, to the top of the agenda, and let us see what kind of deal Michel Barnier can assemble for an Independent Scotland which has already rejected Brexit and chosen its allegiance to Europe. Let us play for Scotland’s interests, not merely the least uncomfortable subjugation, or some abstract concept of parity with Northern Ireland. Let us humiliate Theresa May and the Westminster Dolls house by signing a deal with Michel Barnier to protect Scotland’s European interests and remove all uncertainty about our shared future with Europe and common prosperity.
I am sick to my innermost core of this tepid, wishy-washy “Meh, lets just wait and see what the final Brexit looks like” guff. It is a mind prison none of us should never have entered, and abdicates all initiative to Westminster. Suppose England now opts for a second Brexit referendum? That’s IndyRef Plan A back to the drawing board again isn’t it?
We need to start being difficult, intransigent, and a whole lot firmer about defending Scotland’s place IN EUROPE, not merely the Single Market as a Regional entity, not part of the Customs Union as a Regional Entity, – but a Sovereign Nation State and fully paid up member of the EU.
Let us start defending Scotland like we are angry and determined to win, not a bunch of gutless drips who are terribly, terribly nice, but who can hold neither Westminster nor the BBC to account, and are singularly ineffective in steering the arguments towards Independence and steering clear of the biggest, needless, economic catastrophe ever to damage a deranged and deluded nation of blinkered idiots in peacetime.
Take all your 2019, 2020, 2021 IndyRefs and shove them where I can’t see or hear them. Those dates are unacceptable because they are too late. Salvation which arrives on or after 1st April 2019 will be the biggest Huntigowk for Scotland of all time.
Scotland can escape the lunacy of Brexit simply by defending the constitutional sovereignty of Scotland’s democratically declared will to remain a Nation in the EU. Give Scots the ultimatum of Independence and Prosperity in Europe, versus Subjugation and Penury under Tory Westminster, and get your fingers out your arse winning that argument, taking it to the people, and winning over undecided voters. And given the guillotine is scheduled to fall upon all our necks in March 2019, there is not another moment to lose.
If I hear one more time “We’re waiting to see the final Brexit Deal” I swear I’m going to spontaneously combust. That’s like waiting to be shot to see if it hurts. We have squandered too many opportunities delivered by providence that we must now contrive our own providence, but let us deal with that on the move.
If we have no majority or certainty of winning, then a) I don’t believe it, and b) we must invest our spirit, body, and soul persuading the undecided. We win, or there is nothing.
The CBI represents ‘190,000 businesses of all sizes and sectors, across the regions and nations’ and employs ‘roughly a third of the private sector workforce’.It is trying very hard to remain positive about Brexit but clearly has pressing concerns. The CBI has done its homework unlike the hapless WM regime and spelled out the impact of Brexit in an easy to read format. Scotland the country and equal partner, did not vote for this calamitous decision that adversely affects every aspect of Scotland’s economy. When the UK leaves the EU Scotland, the country and equal partner, should abruptly leave the UK.
‘The UK chemicals and plastics industry has relatively high logistics costs as part of the total supply chain and thus 53% of the UK chemicals industry’s exports are to the EU …The EU has also facilitated international regulations, such as the adopting of the UN’s system of labelling and classification, so the symbols for ‘corrosive’ and ‘flammable’ are universal. Given that the UK imports more than it exports, it is vital for the entire sector to have clarity on the status of these material imports from the EU’….
‘Given the range of energy regulations currently enforced by the EU, leaving without a deal would create an unprecedented situation. Domestic regulation could blunt some of these effects. However, the UK could lose the privileges of the IEM and joint legal mechanisms for managing the all-island Ireland electricity market… The UK is the biggest recipient of the EIB’s dedicated energy funding, securing 24% of total available funds’…
‘The process of leaving the EU must be as smooth as possible for the manufacturing sector. In a scenario where the UK leaves the EU without a deal or temporary interim arrangement, the sudden imposition of tariffs and complex customs processes would be hugely disruptive’…
‘It will be an enormous challenge for the UK to negotiate a duty-free deal with the EU, and put in place effective customs procedures within the 2 year time frame envisaged by Article 50. The immediate imposition of tariffs and paperwork, particularly on perishable products, would create complexity and cost at borders. Every effort must be made to avoid that’…
‘As an enabling industry, the transport, distribution and logistics sector supports and relies on the whole economy …If the UK leaves the EU without an interim arrangement or new deal, the transport, distribution and logistics sector is likely to experience the brunt of this impact. The UK and EU’s legal obligations to treat each other as a third country would be in place immediately’
http://www.cbi.org.uk
Mad cow came from Alabama.
May’s Gov about to collapse?
The Tories could not make a bigger mess. Labour are useless.
Well said Breeks!
Everyone, just scroll back up a wee bit and read that post again.
Up yer swords and doun yer guns, and tae the rogues again!
Aye – what Breeks said (6:20am).
Maun ScotGov – time to make a decisive move on the Brexit chessboard.
Morning All!
I come to pay homage and congratulate the Scottish team on a fantastic performance at the rugby.
Whilst I kept wanting/hoping that England would rally, the simple truth is that Scots held their defense together whilst being more threatening and creative in attack.
I still think we can win the Championship though!
I’m getting pretty fucking weary of both May’s government and the media attempting to rewrite history on the hoof over Scotland’s part in this epic Brexit galactofeck. Most especially their attempts to paint others as the bad guy in their search for scapegoats to take the heat that is rightfully theirs.
So let’s be crystal clear on responsibility for the EU referendum and the Brexit scenario we’re seeing laid out before us. The responsibility for ALL of it lies with the UK government, its practice of politics and decades of media abuse and misinformation. Most particularly, it can be laid at the feet of the current Conservative government, its own infighting and the more reactionary right wing media. As for the hard of thinking who keep insisting that this was a UK vote and that somehow this absolves the UK government of responsibility for endangering existing legal and constitutional arrangements, agreements, assurances and pledges?
I don’t recall that the devolved assemblies were given the option of opting out. Also? Cameron was well aware of the constitutional dangers he was inviting before the vote ever took place. I’ve posted some of what follows before, but right now I’d say it’s worth repeating.
Pre EU referendum and post 2014 indyref.
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
Concerns were indeed raised by Holyrood long before the vote became a reality. For equals and partners, it appears one has the luxury of simply ignoring the other when it’s not the advice or answer they want to hear.
An EU referendum, regardless of whether the Tories promised the electorate of the UK or not, should NEVER have been allowed to come to pass. It constitutionally flew in the face of some fairly hefty existing agreements with other members of the UK. A Brexit result was ALWAYS going to end in constitutional crisis and endangerment for the interests of members’ populations.
Quite rightly, of the scenarios in question within a recent study, Northern Ireland and the threat to the GFA takes centre stage. The thought of hard borders and a possible return to direct Westminster rule, not to mention the economic catastrophe waiting to happen, and the breaking of a hard won peace agreement against the wishes of populations north and south, must be unbearable.
From Scotgov’s point of view, the situation economically is equally stark and the constitutional one no less black and white. HMG broke their word. It’s that simple. The pledge of 2014 was that only by voting no could Scotland guarantee continued membership of the EU. It was a cornerstone of the HMG/Better Together campaign. There was no maybe. There was no caveat of EU referendums. The assurance was pretty straight forward. That was the vision of the UK going forward presented to the Scottish electorate. Also on that note? The act of repatriating powers has become somewhat of a sticking point in the ongoing Brexit Bill negotiations and involves the input of all the devolved legislatures and their respective devolution settlements.
So, a UK wide vote… A vote which the legislatures weren’t really allowed the option of opting out of and which has threatened longstanding, existing settlements within the ‘union’. Given the lack of thought to the effect this would have on the other partners within the current UK? Who is really responsible?
An arrogant, ignorant and frankly uncaring Conservative UK government. A government that basically didn’t give a shit about its standing obligations, agreements, pledges or assurances. Nor did they see fit to inform ANYONE else (see under general public) that their actions may have catastrophic economic and constitutional consequences.
May or Corbyn, it doesn’t matter which, because both are British nationalists who arrogantly believe the EU will accept whatever crappy plan Westminster puts forward.
Gordon McAuslane 7:38 pm
You wrote “Like the English National Anthem, it does not mention the astounding majesty of the place or the character of the people. The English talk about saving their monarch, keeping her ‘happy’ and ‘glorious, long to rule over us’, and ‘sending her victorious’ to put down some benighted poorly-armed people. Not a single mention of the country or the people living in it.
Ours is based on ancient history – not modern Scotland and its people”.
… totally agree. God save the Queen does not stir the soul nor celebrate (in my case) the country of ENgland – and it is a dirge. Its about a a queen, i.e an individual, and of little relevance to anyone.
Tune wise, Jerusalem is better, but the words are are not “inclusive”. Land of Hope and Glory is a belter but, again, references to religion mean the words dont cut it.
FoS is a bit more stirring but, as has been discussed, its references to ancient history are irrelevant and arguably, display an inferiority complex that is inappropriate.
Although I don’t know the words to any of them, the Welsh. the French and the Italian anthems “sound” stirring and both England and Scotland should be looking for something of that ilk.
“Brexit minister Michael Russell is expected to tell SNP activists that the Scottish Government is preparing to undertake its own legislation to help keep Scotland in the single market.” The National
Good. Now is the time to tell Westminster britnats to piss off.
Macart @ 8:47am
Yes, spot on, it’s not just a policy that half disagree with, it goes way beyond that. Willingness to carry out a scorched earth plan as a purely ideological experiment, willingness to renege on important international agreements, and all driven by rampant English nationalism with no regard for the other nations of the UK.
I think this is at the core of their plans, always was. Someone has to take the inevitable flack. Or more accurately, everyone else has to take the flack! The EU for sure. Hammering Scotland to stop us being ‘troublemakers’ is inevitable. Even the Irish are getting stick for daring to consider themselves equals.
Next it will be the rest of the world to blame for not entering into the trade agreements the Tories believe they deserve!
@Dan Huil
National … “laws to protect the country’s place in the European single market”
I certainly hope that is the Scottish Government talking, and not just the National.
‘Staying in the single market’ is a red line.
The debate in South Britain seems to be the official Tory line of ‘Canada+++’, with an unofficial agenda of less, VERSUS growing demand to stay in Customs Union ie the Turkey solution. Just in case anyone needs reminding, all of that is at the hard end of the spectrum.
There is no longer any debate down there about soft single market Brexit anymore!
The Scottish Government / SNP and WM positions appear now to have NO OVERLAP.
This could become crystal clear shortly.
@ Robert Peffers 11.42 – I already posted a reply which has disappeared because “this site cannot be reached” but I’m havng very odd glitches with internt connection which don’t seem to be the fault of my equipment. Seems like the WAN is on the WANE.
Anyway – thx for the reminder that we are, in fact, a sovereign country and so could decide on a national anthem if we want to.
I’m just ambivalent about the current favourites.
FOS – like the tune but not the lyrics
SWH – good but harks back to 1314 battle
ALS – good tune and lyrics
FCAY – ditto but maybe too complex for crowd singing
So can’t decide. Our songwriters need to get busy churning out potential winners. A Scotovision Song Contest on its way.
Would I be ploughing a lonely furrow if I suggested “Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep”?
Sensible D, yay for once i agree with you, the Welsh, Italian and French National Anthems are the business. An abridged version of Caledonia is my favourite for Scotland. beautiful lyrics about ones love for your Nation , not some dirge about a Monarch or past military glories.
@ Greannach – very.
Oh come on folks. Would we really be upset if the SNP get the blame of this idiotic Brexit, especially by the English public ? Personally I would play it for all its worth and let the millions of “leave now” Brexit voters in England think we are rubbing their noses in it.
Many ways to skin a cat.
Looking at National Anthems. Many focus on people, land, and the future.
“Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free;
We’ve golden soil and wealth for toil;
Our home is girt by sea;
Our land abounds in nature’s gifts
Of beauty rich and rare;”
Others, Greece here, take the alternate line of looking back and celebrating past glory.
“I shall always recognize you
by the dreadful sword you hold,
as the Earth with searching vision
you survey with spirit bold.
From the Greeks of old whose dying
brought to life and spirit free,
now with ancient valour rising
let us hail you, oh Liberty. “
I do think it’s more in keeping with Scotland’s civic nationalism to have an anthem celebrating what we have and look forward, rather dwelling too much on how we got here.
Sensibledave, actually wrote –
‘..Land of Hope and Glory is a belter..
Check out these LOHAG (coronation) LYRICS-
Land of Hope and Glory,
*Fortress of the Free,
How may we extol thee,
Praise thee, honour thee?
Hark, a mighty nation
Maketh glad reply;
Lo, our lips are thankful,
Lo, our hearts are high!
Hearts in hope uplifted,
**Loyal lips that sing;
Strong in faith and freedom,
We have crowned our King!
*ER..NOT MUCH OF A FREEDOM IF IT MEANS LIVING WITHIN A FUXKING FORTRESS.
**Everyone else is gagged.
The prosecution rests.
Liz g at 0418 – “Who are Big Country”????? Only one of Dunfermline’s finest – the other being of course Nazareth – not forgetting Barbara Dickson! Up the Pars!!!
Leaving the EU was the last futile step of the little englanders to resurrect the glory days of the Brutish Empire,
all empires fail at some point,this is the last gasp or death rattle of the once `Great` Britain,
Greek,
Egypt,
Persia,
Caliphates,
Rome,
Mongol/Mogul,
Spanish,
Han,
Inca,
Norman/Viking,
America,
all ultimately through institutional corruption and decadence,
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Scotland needs to ditch the losers and get the hell outta Dodge ASAP before we are sucked down the drain hole with the little englanders and their Scottish Uncle Tams.
I loved the Song… Caledonia, so much i named my daughter Caledonia, she tends to be called Cally, and has not suffered any/much bullying as a result of such a “strange” name. A friends daughter was called India at the time and i thought, damn the hippies, they cannot have all the good names. So she too got a country for a name… just one closer to home.
I quite like FoS and am happy to stick with it. It sounded just fine swirling around the stadium on Saturday as the team were getting a 110% from the crowd.
The tune Hey Tuttie Tattie is also a great anthem. I can take or leave Scots Wha Hae. It is a fine historical piece but just a wee bit too martial for a National Anthem in my view. New words for Hey Tuttie Tattie perhaps?
I like Highland Cathedral too. It is quite a lovely piece and written for the bagpipes. I have no issue with the fact it is was written by two German lads. It was written solely with Scotland and the bagpipes in mind.
The Dug poops all over the Tories’ shoes:
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Blame the Jocks, Micks and Foreign Johnnies ain’t a great strategy but it’s all they’ve got after they flounce out.
All dutifully punted by the tax-dodging billionaires’ Press Pack.
Bob Mack says:
Indeed. It is a moral dilemma. Do we want Indy at any costs? No, we are better than that. We can leave such behaviour to the London Tories.
However, we have to be pragmatic. Circumstances have to be right for Indy to happen and that means a degree of breakdown and friction to bring Scots to their senses so they appreciate the reality of this Union.
The threat of a shit awful Brexit forced upon us, anti Scottish feelings in England because of othering, irreconcilable breakdown in relations between Holyrood and WM …. I fear with perfidious Albion, we may need to endure some passing discomfort to ensue a better tomorrow.
Democracy will win through.
Agree that “Battle plans must be drawn up now to defeat this crap about UK single or common market as it’s obvious that this will be the strongest point of attack when the next referendum comes around.“ @Thepnr says, 26 February, 2018 at 12:20 am
Examples like high postage rates or ‘we do not deliver to the Scottish Highlands and Islands’ from companies is one example of no single/common market framework.
The high cost to export electricity to the national grid from Scotland vs SE England getting a rebate is another.
Sorry, that was meant to start with:
“@ Greannach 9.49: unusual choice but I can’t see Dougie MacLean in hot pants.
Fortunately.”
Looks like we are moving to “ end game” as regards the “Brexit fiasco”. May now going flat out for hardest of hard Brexit / no deal. If she wins Commons vote then Indyref2 unavoidable. Mike Russell and our FM not flinching in return of EU powers to Holyrood, and significant that Hillington “ blinked first” and “ ran to the press” attempting to justify the “ Westminster power grab”. Corbyn now seeing his chance to the “ no. 10 keys” with his “ customs union” positional change. If May loses the parliamentary vote are we looking at her resignation and GE? and possible Labour government?. If this comes to pass , thereafter the “ single market card” will be the Westminster establishments’s last “ play” to persuade our FM to “ call off” Indyref2 . If TM wins the day then our FM will surely “ set the date”.
louis.b.argyll 10:11 am
You wrote …
“Sensibledave, actually wrote – ‘..Land of Hope and Glory is a belter.. … and then you went on “*ER..NOT MUCH OF A FREEDOM IF IT MEANS LIVING WITHIN A FUXKING FORTRESS. **Everyone else is gagged. The prosecution rests.
What I actually wrote was … “Tune wise, Jerusalem is better, but the words are are not “inclusive”. Land of Hope and Glory is a belter but, again, references to religion mean the words dont cut it.”
Louis B argyle … Errr …”The prosecution” is just lying dick that just makes stuff up in an attempt to show difference and grievance.
Sensible Dave
the England Ireland match will be a belter and it is likely the victor in that match will take the spoils. If we beat Ireland (and it is a big if) then we will have an interest in the proceedings in our trip to Italy but I don’t think we should get beyond ourselves. The Ireland match will be a huge challenge.
Of course France could surprise England but I haven’t seen any indications that they have got their heads together.
Jerusalem is a nice tune btw.
@sensibledave said
‘I come to pay homage and congratulate the Scottish team on a fantastic performance at the rugby.’
Cheers Dave.
Scotland also won playing exhilarating attacking rugby.
That matters to me since rugby can be a pointless bore to watch at times.
Regards GSTQ.A truly pathetic cringing dirge indeed.
Along with endless warmongering,it is however what British Nationalists want.Great British democracy’s ‘good and decent people’ensure that this is so.
I wonder if all democracies have the same values and character.
Jerusalem in all it’s patriotic glory
link to archive.org
galamcennalath..10.09am
I agree with your last paragraph entirely.
We should dispense with/ modernise words like.. girt, victorious, noble, glorious, bled, crush, loyal etc.
What do you think of borrowing some text from the Declaration of Arbroath.
Switching to past tense..
‘ It (was) in truth
Not for glory,
Nor riches,
Nor honours
That we (fought),
But for freedom,
Which (when denied)
No honest (Scot)
Gave up but with
Their own sweet lives.’
Hmm, à bit heavy at the end’..needs fusion with a bit o Burns.
It’s resolute empathy still manages to ridicule our neighbour’s aggression from 700 years ago.
Just reading all the links to various articles re Brexit, the EU stance and what we might witness this week and the name of one pudding sums it all up for me…..
Eton Mess!
This is the week!
I wonder how loudly Arlene will be singing ‘No Surrender’ come this time next week
_ trying to type this with a cat sitting on half of the keyboard – making lots of typos – hope it,s readable.
Dakk 10.54
ITs all to play for in the Championship. Its wide open and, although I wish it wasn’t, it certainly makes for exciting stuff. A few years back, when Chelsea were all conquering in the Premiership, I was invited to watch a number of games at Stamford Bridge. In only a few years, the fans there had changed from being fans that watch their team in “hope” to fans that watched their team in “expectation” and just assumed that if Chelsea were at home … they won. Looking in from the outside (I am blessed (burdened!)with being a West Ham fan from birth) I noted that a routine 2- 0 win against a mid table club would be greeted by the average Chelsea fan with a complete lack of satisfaction or joy \and bucket loads of criticisms of individual players or the manager.
As sports fans, we actually need games and outcomes to be unpredictable – or a big part of the “experience” is lost. Scotland’s performance on Saturday shows that, on the day, 15 v 15, anything can happen. Which is as it should be.
Moving on to your comment “Along with endless warmongering,it is however what British Nationalists want”
Who are the British Nationalists Dakk? How many of them are there? Thje only joy that the ENglish ever get from singing “God Save the Queen” is the inevitable “wind-up” element it inevitably provokes in other countries. Just like everyone else, the ENglish would much prefer an anthem that had something to say about the country, its values and its aspirations and future – rather than about symbolic monarchies that have little to do with the feelings of everyday folk.
Aye whatever ‘dave’..better, a belter? Your cut n paste of mine also mis-represents. Maybe I had something in my eye, like a wee bit of chummy hippocracy,
But twist away, divide and drool.
louis.b.argyll 11:48 am
You wrote “Aye whatever ‘dave’..better, a belter? Your cut n paste of mine also mis-represents. Maybe I had something in my eye, like a wee bit of chummy hippocracy, “But twist away, divide and drool.
… I will take that as a reluctant apology.
sensibledave,
..’Thje only joy that the ENglish ever get from singing “God Save the Queen” is the inevitable “wind-up” element..’
There, quoted you correctly this time.
And YOU say I ‘make things up’.
You really saying that deep in Huntingdonshire at the eg Conservative Club meetings, when GSTQ is sung, that they are secretly being ironic, and not dreaming of Empire, killing off foreign influence?
You are way off. Or lying?
… I will take that as a reluctant apology.
A mere correction of an honest error.
Any non aggressive offense caused still stands. Lol.
@sensibledave
Swing low is good. I’ve lived in London many years ago and have actually sung it (with actions) on the way to Twickers a few times – club rugby 7 championships (relative in a team).
This one by Jo Hamilton could be adapted into an anthem I think.
Take of the long intro and a verse or two, maybe just one verse and the climactic ending.
I’d love to here a large crowd singing it to see if it worked.
link to youtube.com
@Stravaiger says: 26 February, 2018 at 8:28 am:
“Well said Breeks!
Everyone, just scroll back up a wee bit and read that post again.”
Decisions! Decisions!
Should I listen to Breeks on Wings who keeps running the SG/SNP down or to Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government who have brought us from nowhere to the brink of Independence?
Now let me see!
Ach! No contest – I think I’ll just stick with the SNP for a wee while yet.
Until Scotland is independent then Flower of Scotland is the only game in town.
Surprised at the ignorance by DM as to what the second verse applies to or even it’s greater relevance to independence.
The Land lost is more than symbolic. It’s the clearances and the other ways land held in common was stolen from the people as a result of the union with England.
Not as bad as outright genocide or the Trail of Tears but that’s like excusing sexual molestation by comparing it to a brutal and violent rape.
The second verse is a statement of a grievance and a reminder of what being part of the UK can lead to. Just as Letter from America does.
Donnie Munro’s preference is kind of like abandoning the original trilogy after Empire.
@sensibledave said
‘Who are the British Nationalists Dakk? How many of them are there? ‘
They are the electorate of the UK who buy into the ‘British’ state and with their voting habits ensure the continuance of same.
I’ve no idea how many there are.
Enough,in this democracy to ensure it’s continuance, as we both know.
@Dan Huil says: 26 February, 2018 at 8:54 am:
“May or Corbyn, it doesn’t matter which, because both are British nationalists who arrogantly believe the EU will accept whatever crappy plan Westminster puts forward.”
100% right on the button, Dan. Meanwhile the European Union officials and the EC Commissioners have not changed one syllable of their statement that, “The United Kingdom will not be allowed to Cherry pick from the four basic European Union Freedoms.
They could not be clearer that the United Kingdom Government must accept all four EU freedoms or reject all four EU Freedoms.
That simply means there will be no deals whatsoever.
The UK must choose to remain in the EU under the conditions they signed up to uphold or they must leave without any compromise whatsoever by the European Union.
It is clearly a case of telling May and the Westminster Establishment, “Here are the conditions the United Kingdom has agreed to – take them all or leave them all but you cannot choose what you like from among them.”
@sensibledave says: 26 February, 2018 at 9:01 am@
Let us not beat about the bush, sensibledave. That post is utter pish on several counts but I will highlight just two of them.
First up is the history of that benighted anthem. It was first published in, “The Gentleman’s Magazine”, (issue for October 1745). I already posted this link to the archives of that magazine and posted the rather offensive verse that it contained:-
link to books.google.co.uk
That verse reads:-
“Lord grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory Bring!
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King!”
So much for your claims that it contains, ” …‘sending her victorious’ to put down some benighted poorly-armed people. Not a single mention of the country or the people living in it.”
Those, “benighted poorly-armed people”, were the Jacobite supporters who were rightly fighting for their rightful monarchy. A rightful Monarchy that the real rebels, The English Parliamentarians, deposed as the monarchy of England that, at the time, (1688), was still an independent kingdom from Scotland and Scotland then, pre-1706/7, was still independent.
This claimed rebellion lasted from the real rebellion of, “The English Glorious Revolution”, until the Battle Of Culloden in 1745.
Thus the Jacobites could not rebel against William & Mary who were the foreign monarchy invited to wear the English crown. Go learn your own countries history before pontificating upon it.
The original tune is international and taken from ancient folk music.
Both you and the English Prime Minister.(that is the Prime Minister of the unelected as such Prime Minister of the de facto Parliament of England), insult the intelligence of the people of Scotland and, as for history, that, unelected as such, de fact parliament of England has recently used specifically English law establish a bloody long time, (and I use that term advisedly), before there was a so called Union of the Crowns or the Treaty of Union against the people of Scotland.
As usual you really need to educate yourself about the subjects you spout such pish about on this blog. BTW: Do not even dream about protesting about my use of the term, “Pish”, in the context that I use it.
It was good enough for use by your country’s national Bard so I must assume you will find it good enough to describe your comments here on Wings,.
“Too nationalistic” f*ck sake Munro not you as well.
Liz g,
“If I’m right and Rock does have Narcissistic Personality Disorder,he won’t even see or accept how off colour goading a recently bereaved father is.”
If anyone has “Narcissistic Personality Disorder”, it is Robert Peffers.
What sort of recently bereaved father would make posts like this:
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 9:23 pm
“Now please Wingers, nobody tell Rock about this wee web link when he clocks on tonight.
It might upset him and we cannot have that now – can we?
Well can we?”
Robert Peffers,
“I’ve been mostly ignoring him for a considerable time, yet he has continued with the same bully boy tactics in spite of being ignored.”
Ignoring me you hypocrite?
Robert Peffers says:
25 February, 2018 at 9:23 pm
“Now please Wingers, nobody tell Rock about this wee web link when he clocks on tonight.
It might upset him and we cannot have that now – can we?
Well can we?”
You are an aggressive verbal bully here and almost certainly a nasty person in real life.
What sort of decent mourning father would me making comments mocking and insulting others without reason barely a month before burying a son?
Like all bullies, you are a coward.
You can’t counter the points I make, so pretend you don’t read my comments before making cowardly insults.
Vince,
“This quite clearly means that although Scotland is still a nation, they want it to be the strong nation that it was when it stood against the English Army.”
If Scotland is still a nation, it is an impotent or eunuch nation.
Forget standing against the English army, gullible Scots have been signing up to be cannon fodder in the illegal colonial wars of the English army for centuries.
I’m gonna repaste a comment I’ve just done on the previous page.
—————————————–
Brian Doonthetoon says:
26 February, 2018 at 9:52 pm
There is a contributor on here who, sadly, has become a joke. He/She trawls the slightly older pages and sticks in a piece of verbiage, casting aspersions on other commenters – in an attempt to have the “hanging” comment that newbies will see.
You’re sussed, as I have typed before.
————————————————-
It’s time you changed your tactics/strategy. You are SO transparent.
Rock 8.47pm. I never agree with the rock’s postings. And im not taking his part. But he’s nail on the head here.and I hate to admit he’s right . And no,I’m not f*****g trolling.
I put myself in rocks gullible scot category who signed up 35 yrs ago with the RHF to go to norn irn and suppress my fathers folk for the crown. What a stupid b*****d youth I was back then till I saw how I and many like me,had been used as “cannon fodder back then. But as they say, you can’t put an old head on young shoulders.
Bobp @ 11.13
I certainly don’t see you as stupid or gullible Bob.
Wasn’t only Scot’s used as cannon fodder and it wasn’t only Westminster doing it either.
I think it’s pretty well accepted now that populations actually have to be manipulated to be persuaded to go to war!
And that most wars,in fact I would say all war’s, are never about benefiting the people who actually fight them.
It’s the sharing of information that allows people to work out what is really going on…..and that’s why you may be looking back on your service differently.
But we can all only make the choices we make with the information that we have.
The shame would be if your younger self had all the fact’s and still supported the regime…. and from the way you speak now,I think it’s safe to say he would not.
The fight now is to keep information getting to the people.. any people… so they can’t be fooled again,and they can make good choices about who to let run thing’s.
Bobp,
“Rock 8.47pm. I never agree with the rock’s postings. And im not taking his part. But he’s nail on the head here.and I hate to admit he’s right . And no,I’m not f*****g trolling.”
No-one has to agree with my posts but it is honest of you to admit that you agree with something I have posted.
Bobp,
“What a stupid b*****d youth I was back then till I saw how I and many like me,had been used as “cannon fodder back then.”
The important thing is you have realised that you had been exploited.
Unlike the British Nationalist elderly who voted No to deny their children and grand children the freedom denied to Scots for centuries.
If you take my advice, don’t be bitter about the past but don’t let the British Establishment ever mislead and exploit you again.
Interesting.
It just can’t get away from the idea of leaving a hanging comment on an older page – in this case page 3 in the age stakes, in an attempt to influence newbies to his/her agenda.
Brian Doonthetoon says:
26 February, 2018 at 9:52 pm
There is a contributor on here who, sadly, has become a joke. He/She trawls the slightly older pages and sticks in a piece of verbiage, casting aspersions on other commenters – in an attempt to have the “hanging” comment that newbies will see.
You’re sussed, as I have typed before.
————————————————-
It’s time you changed your tactics/strategy. You are SO transparent.
Oh dear this sad report has raised it’s head again. If Donnie was so against singing this third verse how come his single released at around the same time contains the third verse. Maybe this was one of the first cases of fake news. As the song says – and in the past it must remain
Marchons, marchons. Qu’un sang impur, abreuve nos sillons! 0
Be a Nation again 1 (McFadden 64′)
12/9/07
In a parallel universe, to Scotland the brave..
Na na na na nana nana…accompanied by ex Runrig keyboarder, the member for wanting to be The Speaker