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Wings Over Scotland


The Too Wee Factor

Posted on August 23, 2017 by

This morning sees the release of another set of GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland) figures accompanied, no doubt, by the usual strange hybrid of sneering and cringing from Unionist politicians braying proudly that we’re too small, too subsidised and too stupid to ever look after our own country.

So as the annual circus act gets under way again, for a little perspective we took a quick look at Scotland’s actual standing in the international community.

Below is the top 10% or so of a table of the world’s independent countries, with their population, gross domestic product (GDP) and land mass size, that we’ve thrown together with pathetic little Scotland for comparison.

The source data is from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and all the figures are their estimates for 2017. Because the IMF doesn’t publish figures for Scotland, we’ve used the Scottish Government’s 2015 GDP figure and Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) to convert to US dollars for comparison purposes.

Technically speaking, the best dataset to use for comparison is the OECD’s, which gives real GDP per capita based on PPP conversion of US dollars – eliminating currency and price differences between countries – but the OECD only includes 35 countries and we wanted to give you a proper sense of just how useless and uniquely incapable Scotland is.

Yes, we’re afraid it really is that bad, folks. Ordered by the fairest and most relevant comparison – GDP per capita – Scotland is such a total economic basket case (hampered, as it is, by the terrible loss-making burden of North Sea oil) that as an independent nation it’d only be five places higher in the table than the UK.

(That’s pre-Brexit UK, of course.)

Please remember that this is just a bit of fun and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Obviously, for a properly expert assessment of an independent Scotland’s economy you’ll need to have the stats analysed by some guy who sells dog food for a living, in which case you should probably tune into BBC Scotland all day today.

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Ken500

Can’t wait for the Police/Press apology.

Alibi

Ireland is struggling as an independent nation too. It’s only in 4th place…

newburghgowfer@jokeroonie1101

Oh look yoon demands names?
Is that so you can report to Police and smear them

Jim Thomson

Lindsay, that table always makes me smile. It would be even more interesting if the England figures could also be extracted.

John

It is telling that all the Independent countries around us are higher ranked, some significantly (Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium and the netherlands). I wonder what is holding us back?
John

Martin McDonald

I have long wished the SNP would move away from the “small independent nation” rhetoric. It’s the successor to Labour’s “best wee country in the world”.

Why the need to be so self-deprecating? Scotland is a medium sized country when measured by population. It is a medium sized country when measured by landmass. Do people think of Austria as a “small country”? Of course not, and Scotland is a match for Austria and more besides.

Eliminate the “too small” from any part of the debate.

starlaw

Its annual load of rubbish time again. What makes Scotland so special that it needs this tale of woe. Why can we not see the figures for England and how much has the UK debt increased since this time last year ?

Andy smith

Ireland and Iceland near top of the list, the same Ireland and Iceland the yoons called basket cases before the referendum.

galamcennalath

Lindsay Bruce says

Scotland … as an independent nation it’d only be five places higher in the table than the UK.

… and that is as things stand! That ‘low’ position is a result of Westminster mismanagement of our economy in general and our oil industry specifically.

If we had chosen independence in the 70s we would be top five sitting somewhere alongside Norway.

David McCann

Interesting graph.
As a matter of interest,has Scotland’s contribution to UK been stripped out of. uK as that would make UK figure lower?

jfngw

@Ali

I think the point is that he will be wheeled out to trash Scotland and its ability to be an independent country. Opinions from those who disagree will rarely be heard, even from those who actually have more economic qualifications. Personally I want my experts to have some qualifications in the subject, I’m not convinced by the Gove ‘too many experts’ opinion.

Alan Mackintosh

David McCann, I had the same thought but did some fag packet sums extracting Scotland from the UK and it doesnt make much difference. It drops the GDP/cap a wee bit but not enough to put it below the next lower one on the list – Israel.

Robert Graham

I am a bit baffled – the only area on the planet BP & Shell operate without paying any tax , the UK actually gives both a Tax Break.
Well is this the deal the wizz kids who profess to be more intelligent and highly educated and above us mere mortals ?.

well silly me would it not be cheaper to insist they stop extracting our oil until the market recovers , or are there devious motives at work here , it seems kind of silly to give something away when the same product is generating tax revenue next door (ie) Norway

Macart

Worth reading and pay attention to the language used.

link to news.gov.scot

heedtracker

in which case you should probably tune into BBC Scotland all day today.

Naw thanks. No need to either, its like Groundhog day with beeb Scotland gimps, Groundyoon day.

If you count Scotland’s North Sea and Atlantic ocean territory, that’s a lot of ocean!

Jockanese Wind Talker

Hear, Hear @galamcennalath says at 9:59 am won’t be feeding it.

ON TOPIC

Any idea what the standings of rUK vs I Scotland if we wee to remove Trident etc. spend?

or

What the standings of England, Wales and NI would be if U.K. was split as per deficit% etc.

Robert P

I see the figures are already headlining on BBC North Britain. No surprise there.

Bingo Wings Over Scotland

Good shout David, would be good to see these stats with Scotland, UK and rUK figures side by side.
Can’t think of any names but there must be someone in Scotland who makes graphs and is well connected with the mainstream media…

Breeks

I’m confused.

Does the United Kingdom bit include or exclude Scotland? The UK post Brexit will surely lose half its Crown Jewels.

Does Scotland’s GDP include the £15 billion oil that isn’t attributed to the Scottish economy because it’s sold off the back of a supertanker in Limbo-land before it comes ashore?

Is Scotland’s GERS GDP based on population, and thus giving us per capita credit for only 10% of the “UK” oil, and other things like “UK” Whisky? Funny isn’t it, how that “per capita” bit always gives us 10% of the population….. cough! cough!

And lastly, does the £8billion paid annually to the Rev’s Professional Troll Service count as English GDP spent from Bath, or Scottish GDP earned from here on this thoroughly delightful beach in the Maldives?

Hope that’s all clear and sufficiently disruptive, because I plan to go snorkelling with Thumper and Bambi after lunch, then spend the rest of the day on the Xbox flying drones somewhere remote and unfriendly. You should see the program. The special effects are just awesome. You’d swear all the explosions were real.

Just doing my job Ma’am! But there’s still gonna be some fool be telling y’all that I just made it all up.

Lisa E

Has anyone noticed something funny about this list? The loony yoonies are always beating about Scotland being “Too wee” yet in terms of size most of the successful countries are smaller than the UK. Indeed if Scotland is used as a control measure for a small country then 70% of the countries better get out the tin foil hats cos a calamity must be on the way.

Alternatively, it could be construed that a smaller size country is not a barrier to success but rather a prerequisite. I leave it to the learned readers to decide whether or not to get the Bacofoil out.

ScottishPsyche

Happy GERS Day everyone – may all your deficits be notional.

Douglas Fraser doing a wee primer of doom and gloom prior to the announcement itself. Remember that word notional, it will be used all day to get the BBC out of any trouble.

We have all learned a lot since the White Paper of 2014, why can’t the Yoons move on? We keep having to fight a non-existent referendum on those terms but I suppose that is all they have.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

READERS! For fuck’s SAKE, what have we learned about feeding trolls? Do people think I’ve nothing better to do with my time right now than wade through pages of comments from people replying to some troll arsehole, deleting everything so that folk can actually talk about the article in peace?

The user “indy” is banned. Dealing with trolls is my job. Report them to me and then IGNORE them, because otherwise it’s ultimately MY time you’re wasting, because I’m the one who has to clean up all the sodding mess.

geeo

BBC repeating the now proven lie about oil revenues from last couple years, completely failing to mention the over £15bn admitted by HMRC.

That new method of counting revenue NOT included in GERS figures, obviously !!
…….

“Of this, only £208m was revenue from the North Sea oil and gas industry – an increase from the £56m recorded in 2015/16 but far lower than it had been before the oil price crash, with revenues standing at nearly £8bn in 2011/12”.
………….

Shocked at the BBC saying this …
…….

Does GERS tell us what an independent Scotland would look like ?

“No. The Gers figures are not meant to be anything other than a way of showing the current position under the present arrangements”.
……………

Let the circus begin.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

“Does the United Kingdom bit include or exclude Scotland?”

It includes it, obviously. The IMF doesn’t produce figures for the UK without Scotland, that would be ludicrous. If we mean “rUK”, we’ll say “rUK”.

geeo

Oops..forgot link to last post…link to archive.is

Lorne McMaster

Those daft Irish, don’t they realise how much better off they’d be if they were ruled from London.

Some nations are just plain stupid, London treats Scotland as an equal, always takes our concerns on board, gives us all the money we need and always tells us the truth.

Ireland may have the international, diplomatic and economic networks plus influence in the EU / UN that Scotland has never had, but when we proud brits exit the EU, the uk will provide Scotland the opportunity to have all the international networks we want, albeit providing London does it for us.

Ireland may get fifty thousand high paid new banking jobs when uk brexits, but Scotland can manage with out these, so what if RBS relocates an HQ to Europe from Scotland.

Mrs May (much admired leader), she towers above other world leaders, she is strong, stable and has a common touch and empathy with the average Scot in the street. Of course we should have nuclear weapons next to our biggest city of Glasgow, far more important to keep London safe, that’s where all the important people are.

As for our bbc, truthful press and royal family, the world loves and admires them, we are so lucky!

Scotland, get off your knees and embrace the union!

Peter McCulloch

I am still waiting for any of the unionists to explain why our Nation Scotland is in such a financial state after being in the 300 year old most successful union in history.

When other independent nations that same size or smaller than ours and faced the same global economic conditions are prospering.

OT I see an article in the Guardian ‘Labour is coming back in Scotland’: party predicts revival as Corbyn heads north.

The party needs to turn its guns on Corbyn and highlight all his inconsistencies, contradictions and U-Turns on policies.

They were too complacent about impact Corbyn could have during during the general election, believing Labour was dead and buried and no threat to us, we can’t allow that to happen again.

We also need to hammer home the message to the people of Scotland that Labour wants to make Scotland the highest taxed part of the UK.

Bob Mack

I think it was Larken Rose who described politics as ” The use of lies and misdirection to convince average people into accepting, and indeed ,in some cases, demanding their own enslavement”

Very insightful.

heedtracker

OT I see an article in the Guardian ‘Labour is coming back in Scotland’: party predicts revival as Corbyn heads north.”

Its a very good display of The Graun style vote SLab propaganda, in its Scotland region.

In all their vote SLab stuff, I personally would at least have some respect for Graun liggers in Scotland, if they just for once add to their UKOK propaganda,

“For several years now and certainly since we won in 2014, all Scots press, led by BBC Scotland, have put the Scots under relentless and massive pressure, to just STOP voting SNP!”

But that’s not how UKOK hackdom works, obvs.

[…] Wings Over Scotland The Too Wee Factor This morning sees the release of another set of GERS (Government Expenditure and […]

Robert Kerr

Not quite o/t
Sterling is a sick currency.
Link.
link to bloomberg.com.
Something spiked the Euro v Sterling rate today. Hit 92 p this morning. A five year high!
Link
link to xe.com

K.A.Mylchreest

Hang on, you’ve got Ireland up there at #4, about 75% better off per head than the UK? Even above Iceland, surely some mistake?? Honestly are we supposed to take these figures seriously, I mean a joke’s a joke, and the whisk(e)y may have been flowing, but it’s morning now and we have to sober up …

vlad (not that one )

@David McCann / Alan Mackintosh
Yep. I make the rUK GDP/head as $39,366, (UK: $39,526) so it would sit in the same 25th place between France and Israel.

Ghillie

Macart @ 10.15 am Scottish Government’s response to Gers figures.

VERY interesting language = )

Positive language!

They’ll not keep us down. Gers is misleading, to put it kindly, and more and more folk are becoming aware of that.

Scotland: A great size =) Just right. Rich in oh SO many ways, and especialy in our people of Scotland. And definitely getting smarter by the day 🙂

Thank you Lindsay, a good start to the day = )

Hey, good to see the odd hammer wing by 🙂

heedtracker

K.A.Mylchreest says:
23 August, 2017 at 11:06 am
Hang on, you’ve got Ireland up there at #4, about 75% better off per head than the UK? Even above Iceland, surely some mistake??

Why though?

Brian Powell

heedtracker

LOZ, and I see as usual on these type of bollox articles, no comments section! I would have liked to ask the question, Labour is charge of Wales and Wales has been shown to be the poorest country in Western Europe, so does Corbyn want us to vote Labour and become poorer?

Kevin Doran

If Scotland were independent, we’d be suffering crippling shortages in succulent meaty chunks in gravy, and that’s not even looking at the dry food picture.

Robert J. Sutherland

Phil Robertson @ 11:33,

You are a miserable little quibbler. A perfect example of the “kettle calling the pot”.

The plain fact is, as even any 10-year old can understand, that Scotland could make it economically on its own just fine. Even grumpy old Alistair Darling was grudgingly forced to admit that in his second debate with Alex Salmond in 2014. (It almost choked him to say it, mind you!)

In the end it has nothing whatever to do with economics. That was always just another tool in the Yoon FUD arsenal to unsettle waverers.

The truth of the matter is that people like you, for whatever other reason known only to yourselves, desperately want Scotland to stay under the control of another country, and you don’t actually give a toss that our wealth is continually sucked away elsewhere for someone else’s benefit.

Capella

Delighted to see Scotland is in the top 20 despite the ball and chain around our ankles. Bodes well for independence.
I’ve not listened to R Scotland at all today. It’s increasingly my habit to ignore it alltogether though good to hear reports from the front on WoS.

Artyhetty

So the yearly roll-out of britnat sums portraying Scotland as subsidy junkie, when we all know it is in fact the other way around. rUK would sink without Scotland. Brexit means they need Scotland even more, but Scotland needs to escape, before it’s too late.

Surely the britnats at Holyrood will give the SNP a big pat on the back for performing miracles, ie, keeping Scotland’s head above water against massive odds. 300+ years of the so called union, has the penny dropped yet that it’s er, not doing Scotland any favours, to say the least?

England = what’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine, so shut up and be grateful Scotland!

Robert Peffers

@Martin McDonald says: 23 August, 2017 at 9:18 am:

“I have long wished the SNP would move away from the “small independent nation” rhetoric. It’s the successor to Labour’s “best wee country in the world”.”

So, Martin, it is the usual story then?

It’s all the SNP’s fault?

Aye!
Richt!

Sinky

GERS 2016/17 Scotland’s notional deficit includes

£3.05 billion for UK Defence, Public Sector Debt Interest og £3.25 billion (including PFI) and “Accounting adjustments” of £5.13 billion

Andy

I thought I read somewhere a few years back that the “gers” had died???

T.roz

Holy shit! I know scotland is a skittery useless dump, but what a bag of shite the UK is. We have to stop brexit now, the EU is what subsidises us all, we are just too wee and stupid.!

Clootie

Phil Robertson is a defender of the “hide the data” school of unionism. If we(unionists) manage the reporting and decide the allocation WE WIN. If the evil Sepratists attempt to give a balanced assessment not then they scream “false data”…and WE WIN

In reality with full oil allocation (and Norway tax) plus honest figures on VAT (eg port of export) etc we would be several places above the listing in the article.

Scotland’s wealth is stolen “in support of the Empire”….the term used for most of the 20th. Century.

Unfortunately the unionist media, the trolls and ("Tractor" - Ed)s are still able to fool the public by the ongoing manipulation of revenue information.

Does anyone still believe Scotland is held tight in order to protect them? OR to bleed the natural resources to support the South of England.

K.A.Mylchreest

heedtracker at 11:26 asks me why I’m puzzled and indeed somewhat incredulous over Ireland’s position.

Well if for a start if Ireland is doing so brilliantly (and I wouldn’t begrudge them their success if it’s real) how come the country isn’t flooded with returning former emigrants? How come there are still any Catholic/Nationalists left in the North, why stay there and take all the shite they get if life is so much better in the South and citizenship is granted for the asking?

But where does all this wealth come from? A little offshore oil, I concede. But if I remember my school geography (and teachers never lie?) then they have little industry, no important natural resources and a damp if mild climate that rather limits agriculture. How can you get fabulously rich on turf, whiskey, Guiness and cattle exports?

Moreover, have you ever heard of anyone emigrating to Ireland, aside perhaps from the odd academic or much needed specialist?

heedtracker

Slabour have a new vote SLab vid, all over Facebook, all about how terrible Scotrail is, under Dutch ownership. Usual dirty tricks but worth a look to watch SLabour mock the Netherlands. They’re a very odd crew SLab.

McDuff

The problem is the GERS figures will be used once again by the MSM to rubbish the case for independence and a very gullable public will buy it. Maybe the National should do a story on how misleading GERS are.

Capella

Anyone else having problems with WoS twitter? It doesn’t load media and when I refresh I get a very basic page telling me I blocked Wings Over Scotland – not true.

Is it just me or is it time to get the tinfoil out?

Earlier, my Firefox browser refused to load WoS website telling me it didn’t have a security certificate.

Sigh.

Tinto Chiel

A belter from Derek to chime with the Rev.’s thoughts…

link to derekbateman.scot

osakisushi

Robert Kerr @ 10:59

With regard sterling, you may find this article of some note;

link to iii.co.uk

I know the writer “very very well”. Today, it triggered the drop process mooted which leads to parity.

budwiser

GERS are nonsense

Dan Huil

Meanwhile brexit britnats continue to wallow in their Dunkirk delusion. Tally ho, chaps, the cliff’s over here!

Effijy

That very successful country called Ireland, are they not smaller than Scotland, didn’t they have a history of the Westminster Stealing their resources and lying to them that they couldn’t survive without them?

Did Ireland have 40 years worth of Oil revenue coming in?
Do you recall that their independent currency was called the Pound

Dan Huil

So the GERS figures [deranged as they are] show a drop in the supposed deficit. And the day before this drop is reported the Rev story breaks in the britnat media. Well well well…

Capella

Ireland’s economy summary in Wikipedia:

The activities of multinational companies based in Ireland have made it one of the largest exporters of pharmaceutical agents, medical devices and software-related goods and services in the world.

Ireland’s exports also relate to the activities of large Irish companies (such as Ryanair, Kerry Group and Smurfit Kappa Group) and exports of mineral resources: Ireland is the seventh largest producer of zinc concentrates, and the twelfth largest producer of lead concentrates.

The country also has significant deposits of gypsum, limestone, and smaller quantities of copper, silver, gold, barite, and dolomite.

Tourism in Ireland contributes about 4% of GDP and is a significant source of employment.

Other goods exports include agri-food, cattle, beef, dairy products, and aluminum.

Ireland’s major imports include data processing equipment, chemicals, petroleum and petroleum products, textiles, and clothing.

Financial services provided by multinational corporations based at the Irish Financial Services Centre also contribute to Irish exports.

The difference between exports (€89.4 billion) and imports (€45.5 billion) resulted an annual trade surplus of €43.9 billion in 2010, which is the highest trade surplus relative to GDP achieved by any EU member state.

link to en.wikipedia.org

HandandShrimp

Capella

I had to uninstall Firefox. The new version (55 I think) broke the whole show. Wouldn’t load websites and couldn’t even see Firefox’s own favourites list. Tried Chrome and it imported my Firefox favourites list no problem.

May try Firefox again now that Windows has just installed a massive 1.5 hour upgrade.

Peter McCulloch

Derek Bateman makes the point about the GERS figures more eloquently than I have or could.

Capella

@ Handandshrimp – thx for the info. I’ve had huge problems recently (Windows 8.1) which only cleared up after uninstalling AVG – several times – it isn’t easy!
Now use Kaspersky.

I’d already moved from Chrome to Firefox because of previous problems with Chrome. Looks like I’ll have to move back. Every Windows update seems to create issues.
Curses.

ronnie anderson

@ Tinto Chiel
[Short of independence, I see no reason why a more federal UK cannot be made to work in the interests of all and am willing to work for it. Democracy before dogma.]

Acceptance of second best is is the default position of Westminster Tories/Slab/Libs , we’ve come a long road towards Independence with all its humps n bumps better to continue past the forks in that road . Bateman & nobody else will convince me , we would still get shafted .

Robert Peffers

@starlaw says: 23 August, 2017 at 9:28 am:

” … Why can we not see the figures for England and how much has the UK debt increased since this time last year?”

I’ve explained the reason many times before, starlaw, but I’ll explain it again. It cannot be propagated enough as the Scots buts still haven’t got it through their thick skulls.

The Westminster Establishment, (it pre-dates the Westminster Parliament of England by a substantial number of centuries with the ruling power of south Britain being centred on Londinium), has always managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the hoi polloi by over complicating how things were run.

For example the Romans did not directly run things but Romanised the existing South Britain leaders and had them run things for Rome under the orders of a Roman Governor. These Romanised Briton Leaders thus had a far better living than their underlings who, under the Romans were actually traded as slaves by the Romans. Roman Britain was a customs & Excise set-up like the rest of the Roman Empire but if the native Britons had any complaints they blamed the local Romanised Briton leaders and not the Romans.

When the Romans left the system continued under the Anglo-Saxon Germanic Tribes the Native Britons invited to south Britain to protect them, not so much, strangely enough, from the Northern Britons but from other factions of the Germanic tribes. The Roman Walls were much more customs barriers than they were defences against the North Britons.

After all North Britain, as today, had a small population but a wealth of natural resources. Why would they want to raid the south when they had everything the needed at home? A visit to the very sophisticated Stone Age Village dwellings of, for example Skara Brae. One of the Neolithic settlements on Scotland’s Northern Isles will prove that point.

link to orkneyjar.com

The Anglo Saxons were, though, only part of the Germanic tribes the South Britons invited in to protect them and that elite leadership is still in power in today’s Britain and still using the same tactics to divide and conquer the native Britons.

The name, “Normans”, is a corruption of the term, “Norsemen”, that includes the Vikings and Germanic does not refer to modern Germany but more to the Scandinavian areas.

No one can deny those facts for not only is the still legally sovereign monarchy of England from the Sax-Cobourg and Gotha family but the hereditary peers of those Normans, who brought us the Feudal System still sit in the Westminster House of Lords.

So, when it came to the point where Westminster’s rule was under threat from the Irish, Welsh and Scottish independence movements Westminster launched their ambitious, “Cunning Plan”, – Devolution of Power. For a power devolved is a power retained.

Now you or I would have realised that, “The United Kingdom”. is a Treaty only between two equally sovereign Kingdoms, and our first move would have been to end the Union in an amicable and friendly manner that would have retained a more friendly, and probably strengthened, relationship between the two kingdoms. But Not The Westminster Establishment – they are not genetically programmed that way.

So they made devolution as complicated and unequal as they could manage to fool the voters. First they relegated their sole partner, the Kingdom of Scotland, to the same status as the two English dominion countries of Wales and what remnants they still controlled in Ireland. Westminster sandwiched the country of Scotland between Northern Ireland and Wales as just another English dominion and then dished out minimal devolved powers on a thoroughly unequal basis.

Northern Ireland got the most devolved powers, Wales got the least and the actual KINGDOM of Scotland was between the two English dominions of the Kingdom of England and assumed to now be also an English Dominion.

Not only that but they claim that the Treaty of Union had, “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom and thus devolved The country of England’s sovereign powers, (a.k.a, The Crown of England’s legal sovereignty), to the three underling English Dominions.

It real terms the setting up of Devolved Parliament only devolved the powers of the Country of England to three of the four United Kingdom countries and assumed that England was the master race that owned them all and thus Westminster is now the de facto Parliament of England with three slave dominions and there is factually no such parliament elected as the parliament of England.

An honest Westminster would have split the United Kingdom into its proper two partner kingdoms then split the Kingdom of England’s three countries equally and invited the Kingdom of Scotland to join with the three country kingdom of England to end the monarch and become the four equal states of a federal Britain and furthermore would have invited the three Crown Protectorates to become associate, self government, states.

Westminster Establishment people, though, are not genetically programmed to be honest brokers.

Thomas Valentine

Trying to find the article in a currency traders magazine about the UK government spending to prop up the value of Sterling.
Sterling has dropped and so imports and consequently prices rise. Raw food imports and the fuel to transports them pushes food on the supermarket shelf prices even further up.

The magazine said at the rate the UK gov was spending they would run out of funds by the end of the 3rd quarter of 2017. Then we’d really have a reason to panic. Then it would be live on porridge oats and pasta or not pay the rent. We wouldn’t be handing that stuff into the foodbank anymore we’d be eating it our selves.

Graeme McCormick

I think we can also make the claim that Scots have contributed significantly to the economies of all the countries above us.
In Finland a few years ago I discovered their main textile industries were founded by a Scotsman by the name of Finlayson in Tampere and the businesses are still going strong.

As the table shows, it’s unfortunate but we’ve not done enough to stop the rUk falling behind

Katsoft

Stu sorry but this is sort of OT so delete if you want.

Discussion with 2 englishmen last night. 1 aristocratic, well he thinks so. Main contribution ‘when we(england) owed half the world’ countries were glad to buy englands goods and out of EU they will flock back. On Scotland ‘we should be happy that england supported our country. WM should take back control and cut spending to Scotland.
2nd was Danny Dyer, diamond geezer, East End. Scotland couldn’t run itself, survives on english handouts, has no industry, no oil, gives out free education prescriptions, etc all paid for by english. If english had vote they would have got rid of the subsidy junkies in Scotland. Every time I tried to give figures or discuss what he said I got another lecture. On EU england financed it along with dastardly Germans, EU would fail without england,
Trade deals wuth US, china india Australia new Zealand etc would be knocking at englands door to trade. I found his attiude to germans frighteningly like old racist (I kike the germans but….) He was still fighting WWII. Sorry for rant and btw constant use of england instead of Britain or UK was his. I had to leave and last night my last lingering feelings for the english vanished. Sooner we’re gone the better

Swiss Perspective

I note that Ireland, Denmark, Norway and Iceland – all neighbours with similar or worse geography – are further up the list. And this is the Union at work for Scotland?

Capella

Irish energy summary Wikipedia:

Ireland is a net energy importer. Ireland’s import dependency decreased to 85% in 2014 (from 89% in 2013). The cost of all energy imports to Ireland was approximately €5.7 billion…

While the production of electricity for the Irish national grid, by nuclear fission, is legally prohibited by Ireland under Electricity Regulation Act, 1999 (Section 18),[17] the enforcement of this prohibition is naturally only possible within the borders of Ireland.

link to en.wikipedia.org

Breeks

Not pointing the finger at you Rev, but isn’t there worthwhile research to be done and supporting article needing to written to explain how and why, in specific detail, Scotland’s GDP would actually change?

We are all encouraged to believe it would, but HOW would our GDP be different and improved after Independence?

I know straight away, the big GERS problem arises over the data available held back by the Treasury, but even without all the pieces, you can still prove the formula even if it has gaps left for variable integers that are missing.

Right now, “we”, that is YES, should be processing this information, and getting it boiled down to quick-on-the-draw Wee Book simplicity, and augmented with Phantom Power dynamism. Correction, make that MORE Phantom Power dynamism. The Richard Murphy film was great.

YES should take the initiative, and pick the battleground for the inevitable economic debate to come, so that the debate is framed by our well researched and documented figures, and not framed by the UKOK media bolstering discredited GERS figures, which makes us look “shifty” in trying to discredit them.

Take the initiative and get the argument where we want it to be. Wherever GERS becomes murky and lacks detail, YES should be shining an all seeing searchlight.

HandandShrimp

It must be upsetting for the Unionists that the GERS so called deficit has narrowed rather than widened.

However, I am sure they will fap themselves silly at the notion that Scotland is Yemen’s poor relation…using only dog food as lubrication.

Highland Wifie

heedtracker says
“In which case you should tune in to BBC Scotland all day today. Naw thanks”

Since I stopped doing just that I find my blood pressure has stabilised as I’ve stopped shouting at the radio/TV. Have decided that my time is better spent educating myself about what’s really going on and preparing evidence to counter “the too wee too poor” brigade’s arguments.
We need to be ready cos I believe the time is coming sooner than we think.

stewart fae stoney

Basically the UK is dragging Scotland down with it and holding us back but we all know that already

Peter McCulloch

Its what the unionist parties have been peddling for decades, if not hundreds of years to people in England.

That Scotland only survives on the generosity of English Hand outs, so hardly surprising then that people in England have been conditioned to believe that rubbish.

They use the same argument against immigrants, about using public services and taking British jobs, houses etc.

Tinto Chiel

Agree completely, Ronnie. DB’s attitude to federalism is the weak part of his essay, but his thoughts on GERS are timely.

I’m surprised about that, since he says he is a Scottish nationalist.

Federalism is a complete dead-end imo and is always touted by unionists to waste our time.

Mebbe it’s an ex-BBC thing: Mr MacWhirter likes it too.

I want independence and I want it now.

Ian McCubbin

Interesting Lindsay. Again we can trot oyt this comparison to the discredited GERS.
Cant wait for Richard Murphy’s take on them.

heedtracker

BBC r4 vote tory lunchtime news went mental at GERS last year but not a peep out of the gimps this time. Shock:D

They’re over in NI today, boosting up the Ulster Scots to high UKOK heaven instead.

yesindyref2

Totally ignoring oil revenues for the ONSHORE deficit, the figures for the last 7 years (first published figures) are:

2009-10 £19.9 bn 17.8%
2010-11 £18.6 bn 15.6%
2011-12 £18.2 bn 14.6%
2012-13 £17.6 bn 14.0%
2013-14 £16.4 bn 12.2%
2014-15 £16.7 bn 11.9%
2015-16 £14.9 bn 10.1%

The onshore deficit for 2016-17 is £13.5 billion – 9%.

So the onshore deficit is moving steadily downwards, while services are being maintained.

The graphs on page 6 show this steadily improving position for Scotland.

Oil is a bonus.

Andy-B

Good article Rev, however alas it will be the GERS figures hitting the headlines doing down Scotland.

yesindyref2

Ironically BBC covered GERS with a good headline:

Gers figures: Scottish economy deficit cut to £13.3bn

It left Tom Gordon of the Herald to put a negative spin on it.

Oil price collapse blamed for £10bn gap in forecast public finances

with Scott MacNab of the Scotsman halfway, but obsessed with black holes:

GERS: Scotland’s spending black hole falls to £13.2bn

galamcennalath

Tinto Chiel says:

Federalism is a complete dead-end imo and is always touted by unionists to waste our time.

Agree completely.

I would go further and therefore disagree with Derek Bateman. A truly federal UK is not in Scotland’s interests.

I know the ‘equal partners’ element of the status quo is guff in practice, however if we moved to a federal setup then under the new UK constitution, Scotland would be reduced to the legal and constitutional status of region. We might be equal partners with other regions, but we cannot claim to be a sovereign nation.

That said, there isn’t a snowball in Hell’s chance of England, London, and Westminster moving to a federal constitution. It will never happen. Talking about it is therefore definitely a deflection tactic and nothing else,

Robert Peffers

@David McCann says:23 August, 2017 at 9:59 am:

“Interesting graph.
As a matter of interest,has Scotland’s contribution to UK been stripped out of. uK as that would make UK figure lower?”

Well, David, there really is no point whatsoever in attempting to analyse the figures as given for the very good reason that few, if any, quoted figure is an actual figure. The figures are guesstimates by thoroughly dishonest people.

The whole system is so badly cobbled together that any accurate total is impossible to verify. There are so many fiddles, fudges a f***ups and we can only guess at some of the more blatant ones.

First of all there is the big one of, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, earned revenue. The whole concept of, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, is downright dishonesty. For example, while the United Kingdom’s, (that term is now also a dishonest term). Treasury that has become factually the Treasury of the unelected as such de facto parliament of the country of England that is in name only, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom”.

Let’s try and explain that set of downright lies, shall we?

To begin with we will consider the extra-regio-territory oil & gas revenues. These are not only the also fudged term, “North Sea”, Oil & Gas Revenues but also those massive new reserves from the west of Shetland oil & gas fields.

However we do know that over 89% of those Extra-Regio-Revenues are factually not from an unidentifiable extra-regio-territory but are extracted, in geographic terms, from territory that falls under internationally recognised territory that falls under Scottish legal jurisdiction and would thus, in an independent Scotland be undisputed Scottish oil & gas.

Yet every penny of Extra-Regio-Raised revenue goes directly into the wrongly titled United Kingdom Treasury. There is no longer a United Kingdom treasury as Westminster is now the de facto parliament of the country, (not the kingdom), of England yet there is no such organ as an elected as such Parliament of England.

Note that the oft claimed, “English Taxpayers money”, Westminster subsidises Scotland with does not exist. If there is no parliament of England then that money is United Kingdom Money and Scots are taxed as United Kingdom taxpayers and we thus are only getting a fraction of our own tax money returned to Scotland and a big whack of that is oil & gas revenues raised from Scottish territorial waters.

And that is just one of the many scams Westminster uses to steal whatever it chooses from Scotland.

Here’s another one. Scotland has been a net exporter of food, (and drink), Fuel and electric power since, in the case of electricity, at least 1946. England or indeed the UK, has always been a net importer of all three commodities. Yet the way Westminster calculates the UK countries exports is by classing it as belonging to the UK country from which it leaves the UK. Not as belonging to the UK country that produces it.

Almost all Scotch Whisky, 70% of UK Gin and much of the beer & ale exported as English Exports originates from Scotland. As does Salmon, both smoked and unsmoked. It leaves Britain from English ports and airports and the UK calles it English exports.

Add to this such scams as the Electricity National Grid Connection charges by which the UK charges more for each unit of electricity added to the grid by a generator the further from London the generator is situated but also pays a subsidy to generators closest to London and thus the country that is a net exporter of electricity is paying extra to add power to the grid and the country that is a net importer of electricity is being paid to add electricity to the national grid.

Now is the GERS figures con trick getting through to you, David? That, by the way, is only scratching the surface.

Paula Rose

Surely Derek’s point is that the kingdom of Scotland would be independent and might well choose to share sovereignty in certain areas – how that is done would be for both states to decide.

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath
The thing about a federal system, apart from meaning in its own right that the Scottish Government would by neccessity have far more control over the fiances – and spending – is that it would be a huge step further towards Independence, and therefore there would be less ammunition for those opposing Independence to use to sway the doubters.

As Salmond said years ago, there is an underlying majority (quite a large one) for Independence, the problem is convincing them to vote YES. I found the same problem “out there”. People were for the idea (heart), but against what they saw as the reality (mind).

heedtracker

Paula Rose

Brexit England don’t seem the kind of people that are into sharing much at all though. Even if it means they lose economically. Although this is what BetterTogether told us too, 2014. Pool and share, its good thing, but for whom?

pitchfork

well Momentum revealed their true colours (Red white and Blue) with their propaganda video on ScotRail. MI5 would be proud.

Footsoldier

I would like to hear major criticism of the GERS figures from every senior SNP politician over the next few days at every opportunity no matter the main topic they are speaking on. I suspect I will wait in vain.

This is what the Tories do big time.

Big Jock

The question is this Stu. How do we get this information into the defeatist cadaver Scots minds. There is an answer, but it can’t ever happen in this country.

We can reverse the brainwash programme by having a year or two of positive mainstream media coverage. Talking up Scotland rather than continually looking at ways to attack it.

This is not part of the UK agenda so BBC et al , will just keep on trucking.

yesindyref2

This is maybe the paper the SNP release yesterday related to:

link to ons.gov.uk

“Table 1: Net Fiscal Balance from FYE 2014 to FYE 2016, by country and region” under “net fiscal balance.

I’m just starting looking.

yesindyref2

Sorry, that’s not the table.

Robert Graham

Ian Lang – of GERS fame knew exactly what he was doing in presenting GERS to the world , it is not a fiscal construct it a political Club thats been used since its inception to confuse and distract , its sole purpose is to give annual ammunition to unionists to wound the SNP , it that simple .it’s a weapon .

As to derek Batman’s federal view , that cul de sac route won’t work even if it is agreed to by our bigger neighbour ,we would be in the same box as say yorkshire or regions of england with approx the same size population , Yorkshire is not a country with its own legal and education system , Federalism would be a worse situation that this union , if they cant after 300 years operate a union whats the chances of federalism working Zilch , nada , Nyet , not a bloody hope in hell .It’s a distraction .

Chick McGregor

Great stuff. More like this please.

Kevin,
“If Scotland were independent, we’d be suffering crippling shortages in succulent meaty chunks in gravy”

Getting your point, even without the pie-chart 🙂

But…

With a quarter of the UK’s beef production and only 1/12th of the population, I hardly think that likely.

Nana

Richard Murphy on today’s Gers

link to taxresearch.org.uk

Cherry

I haven’t read Derek’s blog yet. However I can’t even describe the feeling of panic when the federal word is brought into any debate. It’s absolutely independence for me. No more “working” with the Westminster mafia. After 310 years of being a colony of the empire you would think we would know better than to trust anything Westminster says it will do. We can be a helpful friendly neighbour but nothing more. Do we honestly believe they would allow any autonomy of any of the new states. They can’t help it they are drunk on power…they have to be in control…and we, in Scotland will once again be the loser.
Independence nothing more…nothing less! The children of the future generations need us to stand strong and stable!

Nana

@yesindyref2

Is this the one

link to ons.gov.uk

Dr Jim

So because of the SNP Scotland is five places higher meaning if we had Unionist parties in charge in Holyrood we’d be the same as rUK

Isn’t that what they’re always saying, that we should be the same, which is worse off innit?

Hee Hee!

yesindyref2

@Nana
Don’t think so, that doesn’t break it down by “region”.

From the SNP release:
link to snp.org

the link they give is:
link to ons.gov.uk

but I see there’s now an update on the SNP website:

link to snp.org

“GERS figures explained”

which I shall proceed to read 🙂

starlaw

I to detest any idea of a federation. Scotland would be voted down at every vote. Independence should be the only card in play.

Big Jock

Federalism is just another way of saying regionalisation. It’s a country we are and a countries status we demand. Scottish is a stand alone nationality Bavarian is an identity within another country.

We are not Bavaria or Quebec. We are Scotland and Scottish.

ScottieDog

@Breeks
“We are all encouraged to believe it would, but HOW would our GDP be different and improved after Independence?”

By the incumbent government increasing the money supply and directing it into the productive economy – job creation. Hopefully targeted at Scotland’s massive energy potential.

That’s how GDP is increased if you want to use that metric. Spending creates income.

Much in the way of money creation in the UK has been for the purposes of speculation by the commercial banks. This is what caused the financial crisis.
Iceland is a more pertinent example of a small country expanding its balance sheet to create jobs. Have a look at their data and you can see the result

Breeks

Tinto Chiel says:
23 August, 2017 at 1:27 pm
“Agree completely, Ronnie. DB’s attitude to federalism is the weak part of his essay, but his thoughts on GERS are timely.
I’m surprised about that, since he says he is a Scottish nationalist.
Federalism is a complete dead-end imo and is always touted by unionists to waste our time.
Mebbe it’s an ex-BBC thing: Mr MacWhirter likes it too.”

I can see where he’s coming from. Don’t think federalism, but confederalism, where member states in a political union have a “get out” option derived from their sovereignty. That means a Union which either Nation can turn off and on like a tap. It’s the essence of the EU; progress by unanimous consensus, but individual members have their sovereign veto.

If the ScotRef fails to deliver the outright majority for Independence, then a renegotiated confederal arrangement which sees Scottish sovereignty respected would be a worthy second prize.

Why? Because a confederal Union which respects Scotland’s sovereign veto is a Union which can be ended unilaterally at any time. The constitutional parameters of both or all constituent nations are not compromised in the way Scotland’s sovereignty has been and is compromised by the UK Union. The fact Scotland has an “end the Union” failsafe is made crystal clear to all parties, but the real material benefit is Scotland suddenly has a sovereign right of veto to kill off any legislation it doesn’t want to entertain. In essence, we don’t kill off the Union, but fix it so Scotland’s sovereignty is respected.

In short, the Union exists, but not as we know it. It survives by the very skin of its teeth, and only ever for as long as it takes a sovereign vote to finally terminate it.

From my own perspective, and you all know my fixation about sovereignty, Scotland already has that sovereign right to say no right now, but doesn’t understand its power. It said no in 2016, but neither Westminster nor Holyrood respected what it meant. Too much Sovereignty all at once is too difficult to handle …it would seem.

So, Independence will go to a referendum, with YES entrenched and intransigent on one side, and Unionists equally entrenched on the other, with precious little common ground in between.

If that situation creates stalemate, or even looks like creating stalemate, then that precious little piece of common ground could very well be an interim compromise; a confederal UK for as many years, months, weeks, days or hours it can survive. The last rites for the Union from the YES perspective, the last chance for the Union for Unionists, but supporters for a confederal UK could be the deciding factor in a “hung” or indecisive referendum.

I feel an classic question come over me which John Robertson was once asked in a debate. “We know what your first choice would be, but if you couldn’t have your first choice, what would your second choice be?”.

We all know our first choice is Independence, but if that eludes us, what would our second choice be? Subjugation in the Brexited Union? Or a confederal UK which empowers Scotland’s sovereign voice and sovereign choice to remain in Europe? Oh yes.. and full on Indy on the first windy day.

Don’t dismiss the idea. A confederal UK with one sovereign nation in the EU having unique and historical trading practices with its non-EU neighbour, could sugar coat Scotland’s sovereign independence by giving England the POSSIBILITY of a soft Brexit, and heaven forbid, some later date reconciliation and EU membership for England.

Could Westminster be persuaded to see the merit in Scotland’s Independent status? Of course not… at least, not until it was inevitable, or Brexit was looking incredibly bleak. But even where and when Independence does become inevitable, the disposition of Westminster towards Scottish Independence could have a great bearing on how our hardline Unionists react.

We can all get our heads around a holding pen status for Scotland in Europe. What if a confederal UK was to be thought of as a similar holding pen option for Scotland exiting the U.K.?

ScottieDog

Interesting question.
Which country is more sovereign. One which can supply its own energy needs or one which has to import its energy?
So post Indy which country in the British isles will be most sovereign?

galamcennalath

yesindyref2 says:

The thing about a federal system, apart from meaning in its own right that the Scottish Government would by neccessity have far more control over the fiances – and spending – is that it would be a huge step further towards Independence, and therefore there would be less ammunition for those opposing Independence to use to sway the doubters.

It might, but the same could be done under the present Union and further devolution. The fabled DevoMax even. The present system could, with no significant change, devolve everything but the military and foreign affairs. (All academic because the Establishment won’t decentralise any more anyway).

A federal system – Germany, US etc gives regions/states clear powers but it also enshrines central powers. It needs a full written constitution the changing of which is intentionally made difficult.

Big Jock says:

Federalism is just another way of saying regionalisation. It’s a country we are and a countries status we demand. Scottish is a stand alone nationality Bavarian is an identity within another country.

Which is the way I see it. Moving to a formal federal region would diminish Scotland’s status. (Again, all academic. England would never agree to a federal system.)

Now, a confederation of sovereign nation states agreeing to pull and share certain services, that is something else to consider. Problem again is it’s all win for Scotland, all lose for the UK so will never happen.

Robert Graham

I haven’t noticed a certain Mr C Alexander lately , i do hope i have his name right , anyway i hope he is in good health ,perhaps he is undergoing some much needed social skills training as he has recently been upsetting a few folk here , anyway best wishes .

Artyhetty

Swiss Perspective says:
23 August, 2017 at 1:12 pm

‘I note that Ireland, Denmark, Norway and Iceland – all neighbours with similar or worse geography – are further up the list. And this is the Union at work for Scotland?’

Basically that is the long and short of it. This is how the so called ‘union’ works, not, for Scotland.

Just as a matter of interest, silly me but why does Scotland have to justify anything economically, when to all intents and purposes Scotland is shackled to the rUK, who pull the strings, and set the budget that Scotland has to manage on?

Anyone would think that Scotland has fiscal autonomy if they didn’t know better, rather than having her revenues taken by rUK and the English treasury, who then condescend to send back a few crumbs with lightweight powers ie devolution, and labelled as being heavily subsidised by said English (Government).

Something doesn’t seem to be quite right here. I wonder why.

yesindyref2

Well worth reading this:

link to snp.org

“GERS figures explained”

The way I see GERS is this.

1). The Scottisg Government have a statutory role,, and that restricts the commentary they can make.

2). The SNP are a political party can can say what they like about GERS, but are the aprty of government. It looks though as if they’re coming out fighting on this, something a few posters on Wings have complained about. I think the battle is now beginning.

3). YES is much more than the SNP, and groups, sub-groups and indivivuals can say what we like about GERS, there are multiple ways to tackle it, and we all have our own way.

Mines’s statistical and financial – I take the figures as they are, look at trends – downwards deficit including the onshore deficit without oil revenues, suitability for the EU – we do have a deficit reduction plan that’s working, entry to the eurozone – we can’t yet as we’re too much above the 3%, but we shoud be there by 2022 – if we wanted to join, and were ready and wanted to enter the ERM2 for 2 years.

I think all approaches to GERS are valid arguments.

Muscleguy

I note Scotland is above NZ despite having less than 1/3 of the landmass. This is because Scotland is much more industrialised and has a much more developed infrastructure. NZ is arguing over whether it should tarseal a section of a State Highway (an A-road in British parlance).

It should be stated that fully 1/3 of NZ is National Park or other conservation reserve and they are utterly unlike a British National Park. You won’t find a farm within the park boundary, or a working mine, yet. They are truly wild places.

Occasionally Japanese TV descends on Fiordland (SW corner South Island) with a recording of their latest reconstruction of the call of the moa, the extinct flightless birds of NZ. The bush there is so dense, the land so rugged it is just biologically possible that a species of the smaller sort of bush moa might still exist there.

NZ also has only a small amount of oil and a bit of gas. Virtually nowhere has reticulated gas, it is bottled. Power and phone lines run on poles, festooning suburban streets. These are mostly imported Australian hardwood. All over the country. They have to have metal collars about 1/3 of the way up to stop the brushtailed possum, a feral vermin species from Australia, from climbing them, electrocuting themselves and causing blackouts. Heavy wind and snow regularly cuts the power as it brings the lines down. Trees fall on them.

But still, fibre, buried properly in the footpaths is being installed. Better late than never.

galamcennalath

The year is 2019. Brexit is hard. The short but exhausting campaigning for IndyRef2 is over and a convincing Yes victory has been achieved. This has been helped in part by the EU’s guaranteed offer of an ongoing close relationship for an iScotland within the single market, either as full member or ‘Norway style’.

Then the negotiations with Westminster must begin to dismantle the Union.

If the handling of Brexit negotiations between the EU/UK are anything to go by ….. it is going to be like nailing treacle to the ceiling!

” EU says Britain is still debating its own Brexit position months after triggering Article 50 …. The EU has taken a swipe at the British government’s lack of clarity in Brexit negotiations – accusing David Davis’s team of not having solid negotiating goals months after the start of talks.”

link to archive.is (Text only)

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath
I think under a federal system, there would (or should) be no such thing as “reserved powers”, meaning the Scottish Gvoernment could take back anything it delegated to London, and even end the federal arrangement if and whenever it wanted.

That might not be what Labour want, but I don’t think it could properly be called a “federal” system if it wasn’t set up that way. It would be kind of an updated Treaty of Union, and Act of Union with England, but on far better terms, and ones totally under our control.

Cactus

There are three things that still stand true:

“First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.”

“There’s no limit to what a man can do, or where he can go, if he doesn’t mind who gets the credit.”

“Wings kicks ass!”

FAO the new readers that missed the first 500 comments yesterday:
link to wingsoverscotland.com

Them big gold bars sticking out of our North Sea are just too terrible.

Cheers Lindsay, have ye a smashin’ day Scotland.

“GERS SCHMERS”

yesindyref2

@ starlaw: “I to detest any idea of a federation. Scotland would be voted down at every vote.

Indeed, preciesly why it would be such an inevitable step on the way to Independence.

“Independence should be the only card in play.

With a federal Scotland, it really WOULD be the only card in play, no confusion possible. And since it would be clear that a federation can’t work when 85% of the population is in one big block vote, it would be very clear to the people of Scotland that it wasn’t working.

manandboy

Comedian Ken Cheng won the prize for the best joke at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe with this gag:

“I’m not a fan of the new pound coin, but then again, I hate small change.”

The gag was posted on Bloomberg as ‘ I hate all change’. You couldn’t guess that Bloomberg is pro-Union.

Marcia

Has the dog food seller made a profit yet? His company’s figures should be released at the same time as GERS. 🙂

Highland Wifie

IMO no system, federal or confederal, call it what you like, would be viable without full fiscal autonomy. As GERS demonstrates, Scotland is subsidising rUK therefore, as galamcennalath points out win/win for Scotland. Federalism would not be agreed by rUK if Scotland will be economically better off than themselves. They would still want to obfuscate shared and independent assets.
Better with a clean break.

Chick McGregor

Hi Muscleguy

My daughter’s partner works for Enable in (I think) a coordinator type role for the fibre cable going into Christchurch.

Re the power cables on poles. Reminiscent of the States. But doesn’t NZ have additional reasons for burying them? i.e. quakes and ground movement.

I’d say the standard of living in NZ was much higher than in Scotland or the rUK. Larger homes and gardens, loads of ‘gadgets’ etc. although subject to limited experience of course.

Robert Peffers

@Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 23 August, 2017 at 10:39 am:

““Does the United Kingdom bit include or exclude Scotland?”
It includes it, obviously. The IMF doesn’t produce figures for the UK without Scotland, that would be ludicrous. If we mean “rUK”, we’ll say “rUK”.”

Now I’m sorry to be picky, Rev Stu, but – As the United Kingdom is not a country, it is a union of two kingdoms, if you exclude the Kingdom of Scotland there isn’t an rUK.

What remains is the other, “partner”. (and I use that term loosely), in the United Kingdom is, “The Kingdom of England”.

The fact that it includes three countries is irrelevant.

Capella

@ Muscelguy – I think you’ll find that it is the UK which is different to all other countries when it comes to National Parks. Ours are Cat 4 i.e. not really National Parks at all, more “managed landscapes” where development is allowed.

The Park Authority is the Planning Authority and is lobbied by the usual vested interest groups to allow development.

link to en.wikipedia.org

Chick McGregor

Err NOT burying them.

ScottieDog

@yesindyref2
“Mines’s statistical and financial – I take the figures as they are, look at trends – downwards deficit including the onshore deficit without oil revenues, suitability for the EU – we do have a deficit reduction plan that’s working, entry to the eurozone – we can’t yet as we’re too much above the 3%, but we shoud be there by 2022 – if we wanted to join, and were ready and wanted to enter the ERM2 for 2 years.”

Which would of course be disasterous.
‘Deficit reduction plan. You’re thinking in terms of micro and not macro economics.

The deficit size is down to the spending propensity of the private sector. If the private sector as a whole saves, the deficit increases. Taking money out the economy when the private sector is at a low eb worsens the situation. That’s neoliberal thinking.

The 3% deficit figure Is neoliberal ideology.

Ian Brotherhood

Anyone getting confused over the ‘meaning’ of the word federalism, just remember it emerging from the mouth of serial liar Gordon Brown and ask yourself why he used it repeatedly.

Then give yourself a serious talking-to and don’t do it again!

😉

pitchfork

Guardian is looking for responses from Scottish voters who may or may not be considering “going back to labour”. In case anyone feels like responding. Sorry but I couldn’t get archiving to work:

link to theguardian.com

Capella

And the Scottish government – shamefully IMO – allowed the power companies to build giant pylons through the Cairngorms National Park to transport electricity to Denny where it can be shipped down south.

English authorities insisted the cables were buried to preserve the landscape.

yesindyref2

Okey dokey. To repeat the onshore deficits from the originally published GERS for each year (comparing like for like):

2009-10 £19.9 bn 17.8% of GDP
2010-11 £18.6 bn 15.6%
2011-12 £18.2 bn 14.6%
2012-13 £17.6 bn 14.0%
2013-14 £16.4 bn 12.2%
2014-15 £16.7 bn 11.9%
2015-16 £14.9 bn 10.1%
2016-17 £13.5 bn 9%.

Indy Ref 2019: projected 2018-19 £11.7 bn – 6.5% of GDP
Independence 2021: projected 2020-21 £9.9 bn – 4% of GDP

In the overall deficit figure including geographical oil, that would be minus whatever oil revenues there were, plus the increase that goes with it to GDP which reduces its deficit %age of GDP, so by Indy the chances are Scotland would have a deficit just over 3% of GDP, and less than £10 billion.

Sounds good to me.

osakisushi

Robert Peffers at 4:11

This is the sort of thing which makes me want to scream when such jobsworth attitudes are taken.

And then… a few minutes later, realise you just made a serious point worth considering.
When we do achieve indie, there can be no rUK. Instead, an amalgam of England, Wales, and Ireland.
Can you imagine it, trying to deal with the Ewuki without giggling.

Capella

I see from Stu’s twitter that Labour have mendaciously circulated a video on facebook blaming the Scottish Government for the fact that the railways haven’t been renationalised.

Momentum and Owen Jones the prime suspects with Jeremy Corbyn’s tour of Scotland coinciding.

link to twitter.com

schrodingers cat

robert peffers
When the Romans left the system continued under the Anglo-Saxon Germanic Tribes the Native Britons invited to south Britain to protect them, not so much, strangely enough, from the Northern Britons but from other factions of the Germanic tribes
—————

didnt vortigen invite the anglo saxons to defend them from pictish and irish invasions?

yesindyref2

@osakisushi
Sounds good to me.

But allowing the rUK to call itself the cUK (Continuing UK), and keeping the name UK, will be a huge negotiating asset in the coffers of the Scottish Indy negotiating team.

Can you imagine the rUK having to go to the Yanks and say “umm, err, we’re now called Ewuki” (or Ewni)?

cirsium

Federalism? No way. The post-imperial UK state needs to be dismantled, “it is essentially an anachronistic and parasitical resource-purloining robber state of a type which the world, and specifically Europe, would be better off without.” (quote from the rueclementmarot blogspot which ended after the referendum)

schrodingers cat

i’ve nothing against federalism, i just dont believe westminster or corbyn would ever deliver it. indeed, even granting scotland the ability to calculate or know the true extent of its own finance is beyond westminsters ability. thats why we have GERS.

imagine what would happen if we knew exactly how much, eg salmon is shipped through heathrow but attributed to englands economy?

even a federal UK would not survive such revelations, our favourite dog food salesman would struggle to make any positive graphs for the UK

so while federalism might be desirable to some, since it can never happen, independence is the only solution.

federalism or devo max is a bird that has flown long since

schrodingers cat

Capella

mcternan has recently joined momentum, i sense his hand in this

Vestas

GERS day is groundhog day. Same old….

Vestas

@ schrodingers cat 5:06 pm :

“mcternan has recently joined momentum”

In that case surely we should be running a sweepstake on how long before Corbyn is toast?

yesindyref2

The thing is peeps, even taking their usual distorted view of GERS, today’s figures give the Unionists less alarming figures to spin. And it’s very easy to point out that the trend of any deficit, whether real or illustrative, is very clearly DOWN.

Today’s GERS are not good news for Unionists. Even dog food salesmen.

Capella

@ shrodingers cat – Perhaps McTernan is an undercover agent secretly plotting to bring about the downfall of the Labour Party. Only explanation that fits the facts.

Rock

The Scottish figures are meaningless, cooked up by the bean counters.

What can be noted is that the mighty UK is 25th on the list.

Iceland, treated as a terrorist state by Gordon Brown, is 7th on the list.

mike d

Ka mylchreest 12.11pm. Why have over a 100.000 brit retirees chosen the Irish Republic.?

yesindyref2

Mmm, could I suggest signing this petition with expressive first names (the surname just gets the initial), which publishes the comment instantly? Things like “The Scottish Government do a great job” perhaps …

link to thepetitionsite.com

#ownit

Bob p

Question for yoons. Why doesn’t Westminster truthfully tell us what Scotlands exports are worth separately. What are they hiding? I mean why subsidise a useless region who want independence.

Ken500

What about the £4Billion a year Oil tax revenues lost through Westminster mismanagement. Taxed 40% since Jan 2016. Losing thousands of jobs. The debt/loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. The £1Billion on Trident. The £1Billion that could be saved with minimum pricing. The £3Billion lost on tax evasion. Whisky companies etc pay no tax on vast profits in Scotland. Total £13Billion. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy, The EU renewable Grants etc lost because of Westminster indecision. Total £20Billion+.

The money lost on illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Westminster has caused the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Costing £Billions.

Edward

More signs that the good ship UK plc, may be going down, is in an article on Bloomberg a few hours ago.
Entitled “U.K. Economy May Be Even Weaker Than It Looks, Says UBS Model” with sub heading ‘Economist says pace of expansion may drop close to zero’ and ‘GDP rose 0.3% in second quarter, data Thursday will confirm’

Lead paragraph states ‘The U.K. economy may be even in worse shape than it looks.

That’s the message from UBS AG, which says it’s headed for near-stagnation. Economists led by Pierre Lafourcade at Switzerland’s largest bank said their new model strips out volatility in data to show growth has “softened substantially since the beginning of the year” and is headed “close to zero in the near future.”’

With the UK expected to loose around 30% of trade due to Brexit, it really doesn’t look good at all of the UK

So expect a lot of Westminster obfuscation about the UK’s economy with the help of the media in coming days and weeks
starting with the really crap GDP figure tomorrow

Those interested article is here : link to bloomberg.com

Ken500

Brexit will damage the Scottish economy. Scotland voted to Remain.

Andy-B

Why the hell is Nicola Sturgeon on the news giving credibility to the GERS guesstimate figures, by saying that the billions in deficit are going down.

The SNP are far too nice, almost compliant.

Artyhetty

Guess we should all be very grateful that ‘ohhhhhh ohhh Corbiiiinnn’ has come to Scotland to save us from ourselves, on this jovial GERSday. Vote anything, just not SNP, those inept nats. Labour, I mean, Tories, would do a much better job. After all they always look after Scotland, Scotland’s people and work in Scotland’s interests.

No ta Jezza. We can get along just fine without you. Can you and your Tory pals survive without Scotland. You might have to, and hopefully before too long. 🙂
Ohhhh, (Trident supporting, Brexit lover) Corbiiiinnn. .

Capella

@ Andy-B – sometimes (maybe always) the BBC only broadcasts the bits of SNP interviews it deems suitable for the public to hear.

HandandShrimp

“mcternan has recently joined momentum”

In that case surely we should be running a sweepstake on how long before Corbyn is toast?

If John has joined Momemtum then the express purpose will be to ensure Corbyn is toast.

Momemtum’s anti-Dutch video is telling. Corbyn and Farage really are two sides of the same coin.

yesindyref2

@Andy-B
Sturgeon is the First Minister of Scotland, the head of the Scottish Government, and even though based on estimates, GERS are the official accounts of devolved Scotland.

How do you think it would sound to the 4.1 million voters of Scotland, if the FM of Scotland said on TV “Well, they’re crap, but we produce them anyway”?

Artyhetty

Re;Andy b @6.06

Perhaps Nicola needs some better advisers? You are correct, debunk, and say at every opportunity that these are UKGov figs, what they are based on, nothing that is actually based in reality, and that they only touch the surface, as part of this lovely, er, stealing, scheming, imo, union.

Use Tory tactics, if needed, and say that we don’t need to explain ourselves while shackled to this so called union, and why we don’t. Come on Nicola, stop being nice!

Artyhetty

Re;Capella@4.26

When was that? Be interested to know who was in charge at Holyrood then.

Proud Cybernat

The Kevvy GERS bounce…

link to imgur.com

vlad (not that one )

K.A.Mylchreest @ 12:11 says
[i]… have you ever heard of anyone emigrating to Ireland, aside perhaps from the odd academic or much needed specialist?[/i]

Well, I know someone who until this ear used to spend half a year in Dublin, working in a pub. (Not now, has young family to look after.)

vlad (not that one )

Dropped a “y” somewhere in the Irish sea.

Ken500

Total revenues raised £58Billion. Increased £4Billion. Without Oil revenues. With a Oil revenues it would be £62Billion. Rest of the UK raises £43.5Billion pro rata.

Scotland gets back £28Billion Block Grant. £Billion? capital payment. £14Billion (UK) Pensions/benefits. Contributes £3.5Billion Defence. £50Billion.

Chick McGregor

As I keep saying, keep away from the obfuscating internal UK accountancy methods as much as possible.

That means:

1. Resource to population ratio using raw data.

2. Balance of Trade figures which come under international scrutiny and deal with total in versus total out. Much harder to fiddle.

3. Realise that the ‘England Effect’ is proportionately a much bigger distortion of Scottish trade to Europe and beyond than the ‘Rotterdam Effect’ is to the UK.

For example the latest HMRC regional breakdown figures for international trade balance here below.

Note Scotland is the ONLY region of the UK with a Trade SURPLUS.

The overall UK Trade Deficit is about £140 billion, nearly $200 billion. England being responsible for nearly all of it.

link to uktradeinfo.com

TheWasp

Scotland is doing, smirks Union Jackie
The A9 is behind schedule and disrupting travellers, just like the Queensferry Crossing, says Murdo WATP

Brian Doonthetoon

Well, true to form, Jakiburd managed to get her “But critics say…” in, regarding the dualling of the A9.

Other critics (not misreported) say that Labour and the Lib-Dems should have done something about it when they didn’t know what to spend a Billion+ quid on, when they were in charge.

Film at 11…

MJT

If we go into the next Indy Ref without having completely debunked the GERS Figures and shown it to be nefarious subterfuge, i think lose.

If every person of sound mind has been shown over and over, over whelming evidence that GERS figures are relatively useless, and here’s why, and this is officially backed up by all senior Indy bods including the SNP And Green Party, i think we win.

In games of politics, where there is to be a vote, it is optimal to accuse or have others accuse your opponent of being a child molester. It is of zero importance if opponent is or is not a child molester. All that matters is they are now on the back foot trying to defend themselves from the initial attack whilst you prepare to execute your next attack, thus you are always a minimum of one step ahead and are the aggressor.

Any person or organisation of stature that supports Scottish Independence and treats GERS with any legitimacy is strategically speaking being suboptimal. The use of Gers by the Unionist side is a very useful part of an exploitable strategy.

We on the Indy side are a long long ways from being optimal. If the SNP said the Gers figures where utter pish, this might be minimium EV = 0, but the upside might be considerable.

TheWasp

Blooming predictive text
^^^Scotland skint^^^

schrodingers cat

unionists voted thro the edinburgh tram scheme to spend the money the snp had ear marked for a9 upgrade

Andy-B

In my opinion, if the SNP don’t start publicly debunking these year in year out negative guesstimate GERS figures. Then we won’t change the minds of those who might vote yes to independence in the future.

What other countries deficit is based on guesstimate figures, produced by a foreign government?

Cuilean

GERS explained. How UK Govt North Sea mismanagement and accounting policy gives Scotland a deficit when an indy Scotland would have a healthy surplus.

link to businessforscotland.com

yesindyref2

So, a quick roundup (good for weeds apparently) of reactions to GERS.

Mr Average has scratched his head and thrown the results on his blog. Clean up on aisle 2.

Ruth Davidson’s Tories have claimed that Scotland is better off as part of the UK because it gets to have a huge deficit, a balck hole in its finances. Um, Ruth, should you really be boasting about that?

Murdo Fraser has just noticed that the price of oil has dropped, is staggering around and claiming that he personally will fill the gap in the finances. Nice one, Murdo.

David Mundell is lagging and nobody notices the difference. Keep up at the back there David!

Kezia Dugdale is still trying to get out of Edinburgh to go to surgeries, while claiming the deficit is for the many not the few. Well gee thanks, Kezia, are you going to share my deficit too?

Anas Sarwar seems to be in a rage about rage. That’s awkward, Anas, #angermanagement

Jackie Baillie has nothing to say. Good heavens, it’s a Record!

Willie Rennie doesn’t know it’s GERS day. Keep smiling Willie.

The BBC doesn’t know whether it’s a sh*t or a heartburn. Mmm, keep taking the Rennies, and keep smiling. Smile always!

K.A.Mylchreest

Mike d (5:30 pm) asks, “Why have over a 100.000 brit retirees chosen the Irish Republic?”

Presumably they bring their own income and capital with them and simply choose a rural English-speaking country with decent infrastructure and services and a mild climate. Spain isn’t everyone’s choice after all.

No, if their economy is booming, and if as I now read, they’ve become a progressive modern nation, I’m surprised that folk aren’t flocking there to get a piece of the action. Especially perhaps pre-Brexit, before the barriers to movement go up.

Davie Oga

K.A.Mylchreest says:

Moreover, have you ever heard of anyone emigrating to Ireland, aside perhaps from the odd academic or much needed specialist?

I emigrated to Ireland. Due to the now PM’s handling of her brief in the home office I was unable to procure a visa for my wife. Ireland granted that visa and eight months later we have a good home, a business and a child on the way. I will become an Irish citizen at the first opportunity.
Great place to live and raise a family. I used to be happy to be Scottish, but what type of people would vote against their own independence? What type of national government denies their own citizens a vote on their constitutional future, while endlessly courting and justifying themselves to their colonizers? Like reading wings and keeping up with things, but I’m done with it. My future is here.

Capella

@ Arthetty – unfortunately it was the SNP government and I think John Swinney was the decision maker at the end of the day. But I may be wrong on that. Fergus Ewing was often involved when development decisions had to be made.

The power companies successfully argued that the west coast undersea route and undergrounding the cables onshore, were too expensive.

However, I believe that when the cables ran into England they were undergrounded on landscape conservation grounds.

Just Google Beauly Denny electricity cables for info. Here’s two links, a Scot Gov with the relevant papers and a Guardian article:

link to archive.is

link to gov.scot

yesindyref2

@Capella
Sorry, not really following this, but did look up – BBC Monday, 25 July, 2005:

—————
“The proposed route of a 400,000 volt overhead transmission line, stretching 137 miles (220km), has been published by Scottish and Southern Energy.

The new £320m route follows 18 months of consultation after the original plans sparked objections.

The line will consist of about 600 pylons, some up to 213ft (65m) high, which will take power from Beauly, near Inverness, to Denny, near Falkirk.

Part of the proposed line will run through the Cairngorms National Park. ”
—————–

So the plan well predates the Scottish Government, even if final approval was during. I remember objection hoardings on the A9 from many years ago.

Capella

@ yesindyref2 – Agree the plans were proposed before the SNP minority gov. But it was them who gave the go-ahead.
However, on reading the press release and notes from the website I linked to, it says the Minister who made the decision was Jim Mather.

Also:
Under section 37 of the Electricity Act 1989, Scottish Ministers have power to consent or reject applications to install overhead power lines. Scottish Minsters have no powers to direct that sections of electricity infrastructure be undergrounded.

So it may be that they had no choice.

Jason Smoothpiece

Excuse the rudeness, but you can stick your Federalism up yer kilt.

We have not come all this way to go into partnership with the crooks at Regime HQ at WM.

As for GERs people are slowly understanding not to trust anything coming from Brit Central.

K.A.Mylchreest

Davie Oga (a few posts above).

I wish you every success and happiness for the future, and I’m truly sorry that Scotland has clearly failed you.

Yiu ask : “What type of national government denies their own citizens a vote on their constitutional future?”

What do you mean? The current devolved SNP government? If so, then it’s a vote they don’t dare lose, how would you like to be faced with such a decision?

Ian Brotherhood

@David Oga (7.16) –

Good luck to you

You don’t say how old you are but I’m guessing you’re fairly young. If I was 20 years younger I’d do likewise. That’s not a ‘confession’, just a plain honest fact.

tubular bells

GERS is a joke

galamcennalath

An excellent tweet worth sharing …

” Tommy B @T_Socialist

I suppose the big question is if Wings is newsworthy enough that his arrest is reported on @BBCScotlandNews, why is none of his stories? “

… indeed!

The Rev is news worthy only because he holds the partisan media and politicians to account by exposing their transgressions with quality investigative journalism. The very thing a genuinely free media should be doing in any democracy. Yet that get’s lost in the BBC’s cacophony of IndyBaaaad, ScotlandBaaad, WingsBaaad!

schrodingers cat

Bella Caledonia? @bellacaledonia Aug 22

So somebody’s trying to sue Bella for defamation. Can anyone recommend a lawyer, or better is anyone a lawyer?

seems to be a trend ………

Dr Jim

Numbers Schmumbers:

It matters not what any numbers, set of figures, accountancy tools or opponents to Independence say
The indisputable and absolute fact is no country who gained it’s Independence from Inglind is worse off than when they left and no country anywhere in the entire world has been on the phone to Inglind wishing to rejoin or join their Union or have anything to do with that country other than trade

And we don’t need answers on a postcard for the reasons for that do we, although I’ll submit one

They like being Independent much better
It’s why they did it

Jock McDonnell

One more time, for the hard of thinking ….

Even if Labour had won all the Scottish seats that the SNP kept hold of, Corbyn would still not have enough to win power.

Simple arithmetic folks.
Corbyn is a useful-idiot agent of the British state.

jfngw

I see the usual disagreements as to whether the new BBC presenter is Lab or Tory biased. Does it matter, the only statement which you can confidently make is it would be difficult, nay impossible, to spot one you believe is Scottish independence biased. It would also be fairly easy to spot the unionist biased ones, pretty much them all it looks like.

Grouse Beater

Readers who enjoyed ‘Clipped Wings’ link to wp.me also ordered the sequel ‘Debeaked Wings’ out soon. (Proceed to the basket case.)

ben madigan

@ everyone who mentioned a “federal” system in the UK like, for example, Germany or the USA

That wouldn’t work because of

a) the disproportionate size of the English population (85%) as someone remarked above

b) divided loyalities. Nearly half the populations in Scotland and NI want out of the Union.

c) The English have already refused regional assemblies and proposals about city states. They want England to stay united. They don’t want to pay for another layer of government. They want to decide and legislate alone on matters that involve England. They have every right to want all these things.

d) Finally, and most importantly for Scotland, federalism with its separation of powers, written constitution and so on, is alien to Westminster

This was written just after Indyref 1 – when it was clear devo maxi-max alias the Vow was never going to happen!

link to eurofree3.wordpress.com

mike d

Jock Mcdonnell 8.03pm. Exactly jock. What England votes for,Scotland gets.im over 60 yrs old and i see the same sh*t being repeated. Wake up you youngsters in Scotland and don’t fall for this vote liebor sh*te. You’ll always get tory England.

Legerwood

capella @ 4.26

The National grid financed the undergrounding of the cables in the Lake District to the tune of £460 million.

From the Telegraph
link to archive.is

I don’t know if they put any money on the table when it came to the Cairngorms National Park.

louis.b.argyll

GERS figures..

Another FALSE EQUIVALENCE.

A Right-wing ruse.

Glamaig

Capella says:
23 August, 2017 at 6:14 pm
@ Andy-B – sometimes (maybe always) the BBC only broadcasts the bits of SNP interviews it deems suitable for the public to hear.

Once was interviewed myself and the bastards broadcast only part of what I said, and out of context. They gather soundbites and take what they need to support their (pre-determined) story. Its not actually reporting.

galamcennalath

Legerwood says:

The National grid financed the undergrounding of the cables in the Lake District … I don’t know if they put any money on the table when it came to the Cairngorms National Park.

National Grid don’t operate in Scotland. The Highland new line would be SSE’s.

And therein lies an interesting aside. Perhaps 9 times out of 10, use of the word ‘national’ in titles applies to England and Wales only.

BigBillMaryhill

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.

I thought this was Westminter but it turns out it was Adloph, well, there ye go.

JaMur

But the BBC said Scotland was shite.

ScottishPsyche

I do think Jeremy Corbyn is a useful idiot for darker forces in his party. He can talk with the experience of someone immersed in the political machine but he shows no ability to adapt or think on his feet whatsoever. He is a puppet for those around him who would capitalise on his likeability and dare I say it, naivety. Many of us have been here before and have seen SLab at work over the years. He seems either oblivious to their nasty games or, even worse, is happy to play along.

Now that McTernan has joined Momentum we will see if that particular group really is the grassroots vehicle it claimed to be or another Machiavellian agency for those who are Left when it suits them. It is all so predictable and yet again Scotland is to become the hostage of a bunch of seasoned dirty tricksters using those too young or stupid to see through them.

We can see whose dirty pawprints are all over that video about rail privatisation and he seems to have missed the 9.13 again.

Capella

@ Legerwood – no money was offered in Scotland to underground the Beauly-Denny Line. SSE was flatly opposed to undergrounding insisting it would be too expensive and their share-holders won’t pay for it.

If the “National Grid” paid for undergrounding in England then we, as tax payers, will have contributed to that.

@ Glamaig – I’m sure G A Ponsonby has uploaded many examples of “doctored” broadcasts so it doesn’t surprise me.

ScottishPsyche

Some really nasty stuff from SLab supporters on Twitter just now about Ross Colquhoun/Wings. Yep, they are showing their true form again.

They seem to feel hard done by that the SNP claimed their Left credentials without trying too hard and without all the protestations of socialist purity. They just got on with doing stuff.

Nast, nasty SLab.

ben madigan

with regards to the pylon vs underground cable discussion

In Ireland “the Government and Eirgird state that underground cables are too expensive and difficult to install, while residents think the cost to them, their livlihoods, tourism and their homes will be equally as damaging”.
EirGrid did not consider an underwater power route

There’s also the simple fact that overground cables are subject to electricity blackouts due to bad weather in autumn and winter in N European countries.

The article below is from 2014 when there was a big national debate on the issue
In December 2016 permission was given for 299 pylons to be built but the people are still campaigning against them

link to thejournal.ie

Alex Clark

So in the past week we’ve had the UCAS results of those obtaining places at University always a great focus of British Nationalists attention. Then today we have the GERS figures.

Mainly I’ve heard nothing other than silence. Wonder why?

I’ll tell you why, even though the UCAS figures do not include those that attend college in Scotland for higher education but the English, Welsh and NI figures do, there is an improving picture. The numbers in Scotland are at a record high and a record high for those from the poorest background.

The GERS figures themselves are meaningless since most of the data is made up of estimates by HMRC but even without revenue from the North Sea GERS show an improving picture compared to the whole UK.

They don’t want to tell you that so shut up instead and remain silent. Scotland has lower unemployment, higher GDP per capita than all of the UK other than the blackhole sucking in most of the UK’s wealth that is London and the South East.

Propaganda is used in two ways, it’s the lies they tell you and the facts that they will not reveal. GERS is a lie and we will never have the facts until we become Independent.

I’ve read enough and know enough to say without doubt that an Independent Scotland would easily be in the top ten of that table printed in the article.

No amount of propaganda will ever change that belief. Those still active in pursuing the goal of Independence such as you that are posting on Wings have our Lords and masters a wee bit worried. Good! It means we’re doing something right.

louis.b.argyll

England’s Empire lives.

It’s called The UK.

It’s now ruled by spivs.

But we’ll have our day.

colin alexander

The SNP wouldn’t have to play WM’s GERS game if it refused to administer WM devolution on behalf of the UK Govt – and instead stood for a real Scottish Govt and a real Scottish parliament with real authority.

Capella

@ Ben Madigan – thx for the link. Interesting article. So technically it can be done but are people willing to pay for it? I personally would pay the 3% extra to get rid of pylons.

louis.b.argyll

Colin Alexander 10:12 pm
The SNP wouldn’t have to play WM’s GERS game if it refused to administer WM devolution on behalf of the UK Govt – and instead stood for a real Scottish Govt and a real Scottish parliament with real authority.

That’s what we’re campaigning for Colin..it’s called INDEPENDENCE.

budwiser

I think we can take off our tin helmets, GERS was not the horror story that we were all expecting.

Jock McDonnell

Derek MacKay there, getting the message out.
Magic.

Tam the Bam.

Yeh I thought he did a good job there Jock.

Highland Wifie

Yes very impressed with Derek Mackay’s performance. I have to confess that I didn’t really rate him when he first started appearing in interviews but he got his points across very ably tonight.

Footsoldier

Great performance by Derek Mackay on Scotland tonight. Took command, had answers, pursued our case, had extra comments as an aside; brilliant.

jfngw

Another good Derek Bateman article on his website today.

Do I want independence because I think I will be richer, basically that’s a no from me. I want independence because I believe it is the natural condition for any nation.

I don’t wish to be one of the unionist trainspotters who view the nation based on how useless they think we are. The people of Scotland need to believe they are as good as any other nation, why shouldn’t they?

galamcennalath

You can sense already that Labour are being lined up to fight for the Union in IndyRef2.

The Tories will be nowhere in sight again. Labour will be appealing to the lefties with policies no one will ever deliver from London, and appealing to soft YESs with constitutional changes no Unionist politician will ever actually agree to.

Sadly, it could be a battle over who wins the gullible vote!

ben madigan

@ capella – as far as I understand it – and I have spoken with an irish geologist on the irish question a couple of years ago – technically underground cables are feasible but cost more.
That’s the only drawback for the electricity companies that have to invest in producing a better electricity supply for people and industry.
Underground cables guarantee a more secure electricity supply in northern winters and carry fewer health risks to people and farm animals.
They don’t spoil views and so don’t impact on local tourism.

Davie Oga

K.A.Mylchreest says:
23 August, 2017 at 7:49 pm
Davie Oga (a few posts above).
I wish you every success and happiness for the future, and I’m truly sorry that Scotland has clearly failed you.

Cheers. Scotland never failed me by the way. Politicians and systems of government-different matter.

Keep on truckin wingers. Miracles happen. Think you’ll need one to gain the prize!

Scot Finlayson

Looking for a quick/simple answers,

why is Norway $130 billion in debt but has a $1 trillion oil fund,

is Scotland the only country that gives a f#ck about fiscal debt or deficit,

a Central Bank can print as much money as they want,so why go into debt, why not print more money,

and lastly (more chance of an answer) what`s wrong with Scottish football.

Legerwood

Capella says:
23 August, 2017 at 9:40 pm
@ Legerwood – no money was offered in Scotland to underground the Beauly-Denny Line. SSE was flatly opposed to undergrounding insisting it would be too expensive and their share-holders won’t pay for it.

If the “National Grid” paid for undergrounding in England then we, as tax payers, will have contributed to that.

…………….
It was only part of the line through the Lake District that was undergrounded. From the Telegraph article that I linked to in my post above it was about 15 miles although there is also mention of a tunnel being built in another section of the power line route. The first I heard about this scheme in the Lake District was in the RHS magazine, ‘The Garden’of all places.

As I understand it part of the Beauly to Denny line was undergrounded from Aviemore to Kingussie.
Redundant electricity towers being removed from Cairngorms – link to bbc.co.uk

The National grid owns and operates the grid in England and Wales but just operates the grid in Scotland. Ownership in Scotland is split between two companies.

No doubt as taxpayers we contributed to the cost of the undergrounding in the Lake District.

Famous15

Re 400Kv lines,it is of interest that underground is 24 times more expensive than overhead!New developments in subsea cables may be cheaper than underground.

Grouse Beater

For readers who thought ‘Clipped Wings’ too feeble to be effective, here is the sequel presented in full 3-D:

‘Debeaked Wings’

Warning!

Reading this polemic might make you ‘a person of interest’: link to wp.me

Alex Clark

@Scot Finlayson

Quite simple really regarding Norway’s debt. If you can borrow $130 billion at 2% interest say then why not keep the same $130 billion invested earning say 4%? Their fund seems to be doing pretty good, so good in fact that the yearly income exceeds all of their revenues from oil. Think about that.

They could pay it if they wanted to but choose not too because a pound in your pocket…

Lenny Hartley

Scott finlayson quick answer re Norway, figures off top of head and will probably be out but if I remember correctly Norway is borrowing at about 2.75% and earning around 7% on its oil fund.

Grouse Beater

Great performance by Derek Mackay on Scotland tonight. Took command, had answers, pursued our case, had extra comments as an aside; brilliant.

Thanks for the heads up. Will watch the repeat.

Robert Peffers

@osakisushi says: 23 August, 2017 at 4:33 pm:

” … And then… a few minutes later, realise you just made a serious point worth considering.”

Oh! I’m deadly serious, osakisushi.

Historically and legally The United Kingdom, as it’s name indicates, is very much legally still a Kingdom.

Only but for the killing of The Red Comyn by Robert Bruce and the subsequent excommunication of Bruce by the Holy Roman Se, (at the urging of the monarch of England). The Scottish Legal system of today would not have been adopted in 1320.

Previously Scots law was almost identical to the rest of Christendom. That is the law, based upon Christian religious belief. It held that God selected monarchs as his earthly representatives, by selecting from which womb a child was born.

Sovereignty is/was legally believed to be a God Given right to rule. You will note that the oath to the Monarchy when MPs are sworn in is done in the name of God but the Scots members do not swear by God they, “Affirm”, their allegiance to the crown but bear in mind that the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England sat and formally ended itself on the last day of April 1707 and what sat on 1st May 1707 WAS NOT THE PARLIAMENT OF The KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.

Which beggars the question – How come it now operates under EVEL?

This is the whole idea of Sovereignty. A God given right to rule and as the sovereign monarch owned the kingdom and all the monarch’s subjects they had the power of life or death over the monarch’s subject.

The English Monarch had influence with the pope and had been asked by the monarchless kingdom of Scotland to help decide who should inherit the crown. He chose John Balliol who he could manipulate and, by the, “Ragman Rolls”, had the Scots nobles swear fealty to himself – even the Bruce himself signed that document before Scotland rid themselves of Balliol.

Which was what the clash between the Comyns and the Bruces was all about. However, the English Monarch had become too big for his boots and Pome was, and still is, against divorce but the English monarch was executing his wives and then appointed himself the head of the church of England and thus began divorcing his wives instead of executing them and thus fell out of favour with the Church in Rome.

So when the Scots sent the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath declaring that Scotland was an independent Kingdom they had to give good reason for the Pope to accept their sovereignty but the fly in the ointment was that Bruce, and hence everything he would have owned as sovereign monarch, (including his subjects), were excommunicated so the Scots cunning plan was to prove that under Scots law the Monarch was NOT sovereign as the people were sovereign under Scots law. The monarch is defender of the people’s sovereignty, and the people thus have the right to sack a monarch who they judge to be incompetent at defending their sovereignty. That is still Scottish Law.

Meanwhile, in the Kingdom of England that, by, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, had annexed the Princedom of Wales in 1284 and the Pope who had made The English Monarch, “Lord of Ireland”, who then had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the Irish Crown on the Head of the English Monarch in 1542. So the Kingdom of England was composed of three countries.

However, in 1688, the Parliament of England rebelled against the Monarch they had shared with Scotland since 1603 and they deposed him and imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary, (of Orange), but made them legally delegate their royal sovereignty to the Parliament of England.

But here’s the thing. In 1603 there was no actual Union of the Crowns and both Kingdoms remained independent. Thus in 1688, “The Glorious Revolution”, was strictly an English Kingdom event. Which is why England forced the Treaty of Union upon Scotland in 1707.

What that Glorious Revolution did, though, was kick off what the English still call the Jacobite Rebellion but it could not be a rebellion because you can only rebel against your own sovereign and, in 1688 Scotland was still independent. It was thus a Jacobite uprising in defence of the direct Stewart royal line.

So there’s the facts. There is absolutely no doubt that the United Kingdom only has two equally sovereign partners and that the Treaty itself states that the Scottish & English legal systems are incompatible and will remain, in perpetuity, independent.

As there are only two partner kingdoms when one leaves the union has ended and returns to being two independent kingdoms.

It will be entirely up to Wales, Northern Ireland and England to sort out how things will be run. However, legally be the Statute of Rhuddlan and The Crown of Ireland Act both Wales & N.I. are legally parts of the Kingdom of England. It is, though, no business of an independent Scotland how they sort it out among themselves.

Robert Peffers

@osakisushi says: 23 August, 2017 at 4:33 pm:

” … And then… a few minutes later, realise you just made a serious point worth considering.”

Oh! I’m deadly serious, osakisushi.

Historically and legally The United Kingdom, as it’s name indicates, is very much legally still a Kingdom.

Only but for the killing of The Red Comyn by Robert Bruce and the subsequent excommunication of Bruce by the Holy Roman Se, (at the urging of the monarch of England). The Scottish Legal system of today would not have been adopted in 1320.

Previously Scots law was almost identical to the rest of Christendom. That is the law, based upon Christian religious belief. It held that God selected monarchs as his earthly representatives, by selecting from which womb a child was born.

Sovereignty is/was legally believed to be a God Given right to rule. You will note that the oath to the Monarchy when MPs are sworn in is done in the name of God but the Scots members do not swear by God they, “Affirm”, their allegiance to the crown but bear in mind that the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England sat and formally ended itself on the last day of April 1707 and what sat on 1st May 1707 WAS NOT THE PARLIAMENT OF The KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.

Which beggars the question – How come it now operates under EVEL?

This is the whole idea of Sovereignty. A God given right to rule and as the sovereign monarch owned the kingdom and all the monarch’s subjects they had the power of life or death over the monarch’s subject.

The English Monarch had influence with the pope and had been asked by the monarchless kingdom of Scotland to help decide who should inherit the crown. He chose John Balliol who he could manipulate and, by the, “Ragman Rolls”, had the Scots nobles swear fealty to himself – even the Bruce himself signed that document before Scotland rid themselves of Balliol.

Which was what the clash between the Comyns and the Bruces was all about. However, the English Monarch had become too big for his boots and Pome was, and still is, against divorce but the English monarch was executing his wives and then appointed himself the head of the church of England and thus began divorcing his wives instead of executing them and thus fell out of favour with the Church in Rome.

So when the Scots sent the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath declaring that Scotland was an independent Kingdom they had to give good reason for the Pope to accept their sovereignty but the fly in the ointment was that Bruce, and hence everything he would have owned as sovereign monarch, (including his subjects), were excommunicated so the Scots cunning plan was to prove that under Scots law the Monarch was NOT sovereign as the people were sovereign under Scots law. The monarch is defender of the people’s sovereignty, and the people thus have the right to sack a monarch who they judge to be incompetent at defending their sovereignty. That is still Scottish Law.

Meanwhile, in the Kingdom of England that, by, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, had annexed the Princedom of Wales in 1284 and the Pope who had made The English Monarch, “Lord of Ireland”, who then had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the Irish Crown on the Head of the English Monarch in 1542. So the Kingdom of England was composed of three countries.

However, in 1688, the Parliament of England rebelled against the Monarch they had shared with Scotland since 1603 and they deposed him and imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary, (of Orange), but made them legally delegate their royal sovereignty to the Parliament of England.

But here’s the thing. In 1603 there was no actual Union of the Crowns and both Kingdoms remained independent. Thus in 1688, “The Glorious Revolution”, was strictly an English Kingdom event. Which is why England forced the Treaty of Union upon Scotland in 1707.

What that Glorious Revolution did, though, was kick off what the English still call the Jacobite Rebellion but it could not be a rebellion because you can only rebel against your own sovereign and, in 1688 Scotland was still independent. It was thus a Jacobite uprising in defence of the direct Stewart royal line.

So there’s the facts. There is absolutely no doubt that the United Kingdom only has two equally sovereign partners and that the Treaty itself states that the Scottish & English legal systems are incompatible and will remain, in perpetuity, independent.

As there are only two partner kingdoms when one leaves the union has ended and returns to being two independent kingdoms.

It will be entirely up to Wales, Northern Ireland and England to sort out how things will be run. However, legally be the Statute of Rhuddlan and The Crown of Ireland Act both Wales & N.I. are legally parts of the Kingdom of England. It is, though, no business of an independent Scotland how they sort it out among themselves.

If there are grammatical or spelling errors in the above. I’m sorry but I’m dead beat and cannot keep awake to proof read it. Good Night, or rather, Good menrning.

Robert J. Sutherland

Just catchin’ up once again, and some good comments earlier re “federalism” in particular. It’s a concept as dead as the dodo, since the English Establishment isn’t merely uninterested, it is actively hostile to any loss of control.

As MacWhirter himself has made very clear. (It just remains for him to follow-through on the logic of his own conclusion.) Bateman, I think, was just trying to be conciliatory.

As for Momentum, it is beginning to reveal its true colours now. As reactionary-isolationist as its mirror image on the right.

Historically, left-wing movements across Europe used to proudly name their buildings, newspapers etc. “progress”, reflecting their hopes for a better, fairer future. If Momentum had an HQ or house journal, they would likely call it “regress” instead.

yesindyref2

I’ve been having so much fun since the GERS figures came out, it must surely be time for the sackcloth and ashes.

Nah. It’s just too much fun 😎

yesindyref2

@RJS
The problem with Momentum is that it gathers speed while going downhill rapidly, then it’s an uphill struggle after that as it runs out of steam.

And metaphors.

Alex Clark

@Robert J. Sutherland

When it comes to the issue of Independence there should be no left or right, no political parties, no ideology. All are pointless.

That is until we gain Independence and we can have a big bun fight about how our country should be run. May the best man or woman win.

Ghillie

Robert J Sutherland,

I just saw the Momentum video on Twitter.

I am shocked that it was broadcast.

Did Jeremy Corbyn’s supporters actualy think that was ok?!

The stereotyping and ridiculing of the Dutch and one of their companies being involved with Scotrail offended me.

And I appologise to the people of Holland for the crassness of these idiots who do not speak for Scotland.

Robert J. Sutherland

Alex Clark @ 01:24,

Well said. We need to constantly remind people, it seems, that London-based “solutions” are never, ever, going to provide the answer to our future wellbeing, no matter whatever seductive forms they may take.

As for post-indy (if I dare think about it for just an instant), I expect there will be two phases.

The first will, I think, need to be a coming together of all interests, including the losers, to decide on a robust framework for the future. Not least a decent written constitution that will stand the test of time. The second phase will be to decide, as you suggest, the immediate political direction of the country.

Both will be truly exhilarating. It will be a superb time to be around!

It’s the realisation of the loss of that enormous potential which hit so many ordinary people hard in the immediate aftermath of indyref1. We need to remind everyone of that deep loss, so we never succumb to the temptation to fill that void with something ersatz that can never satisfy.

Robert J. Sutherland

Ghillie @ 01:40,

Just par for the Great BritNat Empire, alas. Know-nothings sneering at little countries merely because they’re small. You hear it in the media all the time, often on panel shows in pseudo-joky form.

But this one was an obvious attempt to ride the populist xenophobic tiger. Can’t say I wish them well with that.

Ghillie

OT/

Tommy Shepherd to give the 3rd annual Thomas Muir Lecture.

At St Mary’s Cathederal, Palmerston Place, Edinburgh.

Thursday evening, 24th August, 7.00 for 7.30 pm, wine reception afterwards =)

Tickets £5, available at the door or from Tommy’s website.

Thomas Muir was a Scottish radical in the 18th century, imprisoned and transported to Australia for his beliefs. Another amazing part of Scottish history that was not broadly taught. (What a surprise!)

AND Murray Armstrong who wrote ‘The Liberty Tree: The Stirring Story of Thomas Muir and Scotland’s First Fight for Democracy’ will be there for a booksigning.

Thomas Muir actualy managed to escape from the penal colonies and the story continues with the incredible tales of his efforts to return to Scotland by sea and land. This is a life story we should have been told and would make a brilliant film!!

The annual lecture is held on the date of Muir’s birthday and is committed to the ideals of democracy, liberty and human rights.

Tommy Shepherd promises that it won’t be a history lecture but will focus on what we do next = )

I’m really looking forward to it! Hope some of you can make it too 🙂

link to eventbrite.com

Breeks

I know federalism is dead, and confederalism is never going to get passed the issue of an English parliament. But that isn’t the point.

But there are NO voters milling around in Scotland with the capacity to sink Scotland’s Independence, but who might think a conferated UK, – that is a Union between a distinctly sovereign Scotland and a distinctly sovereign England, is a workable compromise between Independence and Unionism, which brings them in the Realm of potentially voting YES, rather than simply resigning themselves to voting No.

Federalism is dead in the water because it is DevoMax, sub-sovereign and doesn’t provide any protection for Scotland. We all understand that..

Confederalism is different proposition altogether. It isn’t the status quo, and Westminster government would be turned on its head, because Scotland’s sovereignty would be ring fenced, made safe and kept distinct. That is a totally different framework for government. No more devolved parliament, but a fully sovereign Scottish parliament. That is an an important distinction on both levels. Confederacy is not DevoMax, but if it helps people to see it in such terms, let us call it “IndyMin”.

But IndyMin is Sovereign Independence inside a transitional confederal status, not unlike a transitional currency union, or transitional holding pen status for the EU. It COULD make sense. But the critical difference is that it puts Scotland in sole control of its sovereignty. Whatever happens beyond that is down to ourselves. If the confederal UK doesn’t stack up, then we simply exit the agreement when it suits us.

The central point of advocating for a confederal transition is not have a confederal UK, but getting Scotland over the threshold of sovereign independence; currently one small step for Yessers, but a giant leap for Unionists.

Scot Finlayson

@ Mr Peffers

Thought Roger Kirkpatrick killed Comyn, “I`ll mak sikker”.

Breeks

I ran out of battery…

I meant to finish by saying the Unionist’s and DevoMax was all hype, but still managed to seduce enough undecideds to carry the day for a NO vote in 2014.

Maybe this time around, a credible argument for IndyMin might seduce them back again and carry the day for us.

Please be clear, I myself am sure footed and confident in Independence, and do not feel the need for a confederal UK, but nevertheless, I can recognise that for some people who are less confident and genuinely vexed about losing the UK they grew up in, perhaps a confederal UK arrangement, even if it proves to be a token gesture, could still be a legitimate incremental step on their journey into the light.

Let me stress for the trigger happy amongst us – I mean CONfederal, not federal. We do not concede an inch from full Scottish sovereignty.

Scot Finlayson

@Ghillie,

The last thing Thomas Muir wrote/said 218 years ago,

“We have achieved a great duty in these critical times. After the destruction of so many years, we have been the first to revive the spirit of our country and give it a National Existence”.

link to tinyurl.com

seems the unionist establishment managed to silence him through infiltration and complicit judiciary,

still fricken happening.

Reluctant Nationalist

@ Ghillie

Muir was some man.

But something that made me laugh while reading Don Herzog’s ‘Poisoning the Minds of the Lower Orders’, was that the charge of sedition Muir was convicted of was because “he’d exhorted such ignominious locals as his hairdresser to purchase and read the ‘Rights of Man’.”

He made some truly spiteful enemies.

Nana

link to leyaterra.wordpress.com

Disabled mum harangued by Labour council leader
link to archive.is

link to opendemocracy.net

Aberdeen City Council votes to have co-leaders
link to archive.is

Dorothy Devine

Nana, just loved the Newsquest news – so well deserved and what they have been working towards since the independence referendum!

I do hope their shareholders are delighted!

wee bud

Tuned into radio pravda driving to work.. James Kelly wtf! “The real issue is”, what a plum.. To think people like him used to be in charge…

Black Joan

wee bud @ 7.47 As you say, James Kelly. Oh dear, oh dear. What a demonstration of Slab sharp-wittedness.

mr thms

The real issue is…

link to oilandgaspeople.com

“Who Needs $100 oil? Majors Seen Making More Cash at $50, Goldman Says”

mr thms

The real issue is…

link to oilandgaspeople.com

“Who Needs $100 oil? Majors Seen Making More Cash at $50, Goldman Says”

Footsoldier

I have seen reference on here of referring to the Nederlands or Netherlands as Holland, which is one region of the country.

This is the same as referring to the UK as England.

Macart

Many thanks Nana. 🙂

Robert Peffers

@yesindyref2 says: 23 August, 2017 at 4:47 pm:

“But allowing the rUK to call itself the cUK (Continuing UK), and keeping the name UK, will be a huge negotiating asset in the coffers of the Scottish Indy negotiating team.
Can you imagine the rUK having to go to the Yanks and say “umm, err, we’re now called Ewuki” (or Ewni)?”

Well no, yesindyref2, they will be what they actually are operating as just now:-

The KINGDOM OF ENGLAND, that has as its legal Head of State, Her Majesty the Queen of England.

It is factually at the moment, “Her Majesty’s Government of the United KINGDOM of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.

You pay your Tax into, “Her Majesty’s Treasury”, with a currency printed in Her Majesty’s Royal Mint and the present United KINGDOM is protected by Her Majesty’s Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and the Soldiers of the Queen.

Her Majesty only has two Kingdoms who signed up to become Her Majesty’s United Kingdom and there isn’t a single mention of country or countries in the entire Treaty of Union nor in either the Scottish or English parliament’s Acts of Union.

The point I’m making is that since the Westminster Establishment decided for us all that Westminster had, (in the words of the Secretary of State for Scotland), ” The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”, Westminster has been run as the Westminster Parliament being the, (unelected as such), de facto Parliament of the country of England.

That parliament, (that has no one actually elected as a member), is thus devolving powers that Westminster now assumes to be the powers of the Country of England to the three other countries that are contained in the United Kingdom but the United Kingdom is a Union of only two Kingdoms and Scotland alone is the only legally equally sovereign partner Kingdom in The United Kingdom along with the entire, three country, Kingdom of England.

So when Scotland leaves the UNITED KINGDOM what remains is the KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.

The point being fudged is that a Kingdom need not be also a single country and in fact the Treaty of Union is testament to that fact.

Quite simply it is called the United Kingdom because that is exactly what it is and factually it is now not even being run as a single country but as four countries with the country of England taking control of the other three countries as English dominions even although Scotland has never been legally an Dominion of England – they are just assuming that it is without a word of legal proof that it is now the dominion of the unelected de facto parliament of the country of England.

Footsoldier

Today’s Scottish editions of The Telegraph and Daily Express have different headlines to the English editions. The Scottish headlines tell us that based on the GERS figures we are an economic basket case.

We already know their stance on independence but it also tells us something about the Scots. In order to sell their papers here they have to use insulting headlines to entice us to buy.

Of course it may well be that the limited sales they have here are of little consequence and they are happy to run a loss leader in order to prevent independence and maintain the status quo.

Robert Peffers