The Too Wee Factor
This morning sees the release of another set of GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland) figures accompanied, no doubt, by the usual strange hybrid of sneering and cringing from Unionist politicians braying proudly that we’re too small, too subsidised and too stupid to ever look after our own country.
So as the annual circus act gets under way again, for a little perspective we took a quick look at Scotland’s actual standing in the international community.
Below is the top 10% or so of a table of the world’s independent countries, with their population, gross domestic product (GDP) and land mass size, that we’ve thrown together with pathetic little Scotland for comparison.
The source data is from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and all the figures are their estimates for 2017. Because the IMF doesn’t publish figures for Scotland, we’ve used the Scottish Government’s 2015 GDP figure and Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) to convert to US dollars for comparison purposes.
Technically speaking, the best dataset to use for comparison is the OECD’s, which gives real GDP per capita based on PPP conversion of US dollars – eliminating currency and price differences between countries – but the OECD only includes 35 countries and we wanted to give you a proper sense of just how useless and uniquely incapable Scotland is.
Yes, we’re afraid it really is that bad, folks. Ordered by the fairest and most relevant comparison – GDP per capita – Scotland is such a total economic basket case (hampered, as it is, by the terrible loss-making burden of North Sea oil) that as an independent nation it’d only be five places higher in the table than the UK.
(That’s pre-Brexit UK, of course.)
Please remember that this is just a bit of fun and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Obviously, for a properly expert assessment of an independent Scotland’s economy you’ll need to have the stats analysed by some guy who sells dog food for a living, in which case you should probably tune into BBC Scotland all day today.
Can’t wait for the Police/Press apology.
Ireland is struggling as an independent nation too. It’s only in 4th place…
Oh look yoon demands names?
Is that so you can report to Police and smear them
Lindsay, that table always makes me smile. It would be even more interesting if the England figures could also be extracted.
It is telling that all the Independent countries around us are higher ranked, some significantly (Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium and the netherlands). I wonder what is holding us back?
John
I have long wished the SNP would move away from the “small independent nation” rhetoric. It’s the successor to Labour’s “best wee country in the world”.
Why the need to be so self-deprecating? Scotland is a medium sized country when measured by population. It is a medium sized country when measured by landmass. Do people think of Austria as a “small country”? Of course not, and Scotland is a match for Austria and more besides.
Eliminate the “too small” from any part of the debate.
Its annual load of rubbish time again. What makes Scotland so special that it needs this tale of woe. Why can we not see the figures for England and how much has the UK debt increased since this time last year ?
Ireland and Iceland near top of the list, the same Ireland and Iceland the yoons called basket cases before the referendum.
Lindsay Bruce says
… and that is as things stand! That ‘low’ position is a result of Westminster mismanagement of our economy in general and our oil industry specifically.
If we had chosen independence in the 70s we would be top five sitting somewhere alongside Norway.
Interesting graph.
As a matter of interest,has Scotland’s contribution to UK been stripped out of. uK as that would make UK figure lower?
@Ali
I think the point is that he will be wheeled out to trash Scotland and its ability to be an independent country. Opinions from those who disagree will rarely be heard, even from those who actually have more economic qualifications. Personally I want my experts to have some qualifications in the subject, I’m not convinced by the Gove ‘too many experts’ opinion.
David McCann, I had the same thought but did some fag packet sums extracting Scotland from the UK and it doesnt make much difference. It drops the GDP/cap a wee bit but not enough to put it below the next lower one on the list – Israel.
I am a bit baffled – the only area on the planet BP & Shell operate without paying any tax , the UK actually gives both a Tax Break.
Well is this the deal the wizz kids who profess to be more intelligent and highly educated and above us mere mortals ?.
well silly me would it not be cheaper to insist they stop extracting our oil until the market recovers , or are there devious motives at work here , it seems kind of silly to give something away when the same product is generating tax revenue next door (ie) Norway
Worth reading and pay attention to the language used.
https://news.gov.scot/news/gers-figures-published-1
in which case you should probably tune into BBC Scotland all day today.
Naw thanks. No need to either, its like Groundhog day with beeb Scotland gimps, Groundyoon day.
If you count Scotland’s North Sea and Atlantic ocean territory, that’s a lot of ocean!
Hear, Hear @galamcennalath says at 9:59 am won’t be feeding it.
ON TOPIC
Any idea what the standings of rUK vs I Scotland if we wee to remove Trident etc. spend?
or
What the standings of England, Wales and NI would be if U.K. was split as per deficit% etc.
I see the figures are already headlining on BBC North Britain. No surprise there.
Good shout David, would be good to see these stats with Scotland, UK and rUK figures side by side.
Can’t think of any names but there must be someone in Scotland who makes graphs and is well connected with the mainstream media…
I’m confused.
Does the United Kingdom bit include or exclude Scotland? The UK post Brexit will surely lose half its Crown Jewels.
Does Scotland’s GDP include the £15 billion oil that isn’t attributed to the Scottish economy because it’s sold off the back of a supertanker in Limbo-land before it comes ashore?
Is Scotland’s GERS GDP based on population, and thus giving us per capita credit for only 10% of the “UK” oil, and other things like “UK” Whisky? Funny isn’t it, how that “per capita” bit always gives us 10% of the population….. cough! cough!
And lastly, does the £8billion paid annually to the Rev’s Professional Troll Service count as English GDP spent from Bath, or Scottish GDP earned from here on this thoroughly delightful beach in the Maldives?
Hope that’s all clear and sufficiently disruptive, because I plan to go snorkelling with Thumper and Bambi after lunch, then spend the rest of the day on the Xbox flying drones somewhere remote and unfriendly. You should see the program. The special effects are just awesome. You’d swear all the explosions were real.
Just doing my job Ma’am! But there’s still gonna be some fool be telling y’all that I just made it all up.
Has anyone noticed something funny about this list? The loony yoonies are always beating about Scotland being “Too wee” yet in terms of size most of the successful countries are smaller than the UK. Indeed if Scotland is used as a control measure for a small country then 70% of the countries better get out the tin foil hats cos a calamity must be on the way.
Alternatively, it could be construed that a smaller size country is not a barrier to success but rather a prerequisite. I leave it to the learned readers to decide whether or not to get the Bacofoil out.
Happy GERS Day everyone – may all your deficits be notional.
Douglas Fraser doing a wee primer of doom and gloom prior to the announcement itself. Remember that word notional, it will be used all day to get the BBC out of any trouble.
We have all learned a lot since the White Paper of 2014, why can’t the Yoons move on? We keep having to fight a non-existent referendum on those terms but I suppose that is all they have.
READERS! For fuck’s SAKE, what have we learned about feeding trolls? Do people think I’ve nothing better to do with my time right now than wade through pages of comments from people replying to some troll arsehole, deleting everything so that folk can actually talk about the article in peace?
The user “indy” is banned. Dealing with trolls is my job. Report them to me and then IGNORE them, because otherwise it’s ultimately MY time you’re wasting, because I’m the one who has to clean up all the sodding mess.
BBC repeating the now proven lie about oil revenues from last couple years, completely failing to mention the over £15bn admitted by HMRC.
That new method of counting revenue NOT included in GERS figures, obviously !!
…….
“Of this, only £208m was revenue from the North Sea oil and gas industry – an increase from the £56m recorded in 2015/16 but far lower than it had been before the oil price crash, with revenues standing at nearly £8bn in 2011/12”.
………….
Shocked at the BBC saying this …
…….
Does GERS tell us what an independent Scotland would look like ?
“No. The Gers figures are not meant to be anything other than a way of showing the current position under the present arrangements”.
……………
Let the circus begin.
“Does the United Kingdom bit include or exclude Scotland?”
It includes it, obviously. The IMF doesn’t produce figures for the UK without Scotland, that would be ludicrous. If we mean “rUK”, we’ll say “rUK”.
Oops..forgot link to last post…http://archive.is/WlYqZ
Those daft Irish, don’t they realise how much better off they’d be if they were ruled from London.
Some nations are just plain stupid, London treats Scotland as an equal, always takes our concerns on board, gives us all the money we need and always tells us the truth.
Ireland may have the international, diplomatic and economic networks plus influence in the EU / UN that Scotland has never had, but when we proud brits exit the EU, the uk will provide Scotland the opportunity to have all the international networks we want, albeit providing London does it for us.
Ireland may get fifty thousand high paid new banking jobs when uk brexits, but Scotland can manage with out these, so what if RBS relocates an HQ to Europe from Scotland.
Mrs May (much admired leader), she towers above other world leaders, she is strong, stable and has a common touch and empathy with the average Scot in the street. Of course we should have nuclear weapons next to our biggest city of Glasgow, far more important to keep London safe, that’s where all the important people are.
As for our bbc, truthful press and royal family, the world loves and admires them, we are so lucky!
Scotland, get off your knees and embrace the union!
I am still waiting for any of the unionists to explain why our Nation Scotland is in such a financial state after being in the 300 year old most successful union in history.
When other independent nations that same size or smaller than ours and faced the same global economic conditions are prospering.
OT I see an article in the Guardian ‘Labour is coming back in Scotland’: party predicts revival as Corbyn heads north.
The party needs to turn its guns on Corbyn and highlight all his inconsistencies, contradictions and U-Turns on policies.
They were too complacent about impact Corbyn could have during during the general election, believing Labour was dead and buried and no threat to us, we can’t allow that to happen again.
We also need to hammer home the message to the people of Scotland that Labour wants to make Scotland the highest taxed part of the UK.
I think it was Larken Rose who described politics as ” The use of lies and misdirection to convince average people into accepting, and indeed ,in some cases, demanding their own enslavement”
Very insightful.
OT I see an article in the Guardian ‘Labour is coming back in Scotland’: party predicts revival as Corbyn heads north.”
Its a very good display of The Graun style vote SLab propaganda, in its Scotland region.
In all their vote SLab stuff, I personally would at least have some respect for Graun liggers in Scotland, if they just for once add to their UKOK propaganda,
“For several years now and certainly since we won in 2014, all Scots press, led by BBC Scotland, have put the Scots under relentless and massive pressure, to just STOP voting SNP!”
But that’s not how UKOK hackdom works, obvs.
Not quite o/t
Sterling is a sick currency.
Link.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-15/everyone-s-dumping-the-pound-and-real-money-s-just-starting.
Something spiked the Euro v Sterling rate today. Hit 92 p this morning. A five year high!
Link
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=GBP&view=1D
Hang on, you’ve got Ireland up there at #4, about 75% better off per head than the UK? Even above Iceland, surely some mistake?? Honestly are we supposed to take these figures seriously, I mean a joke’s a joke, and the whisk(e)y may have been flowing, but it’s morning now and we have to sober up …
@David McCann / Alan Mackintosh
Yep. I make the rUK GDP/head as $39,366, (UK: $39,526) so it would sit in the same 25th place between France and Israel.
Macart @ 10.15 am Scottish Government’s response to Gers figures.
VERY interesting language = )
Positive language!
They’ll not keep us down. Gers is misleading, to put it kindly, and more and more folk are becoming aware of that.
Scotland: A great size =) Just right. Rich in oh SO many ways, and especialy in our people of Scotland. And definitely getting smarter by the day 🙂
Thank you Lindsay, a good start to the day = )
Hey, good to see the odd hammer wing by 🙂
K.A.Mylchreest says:
23 August, 2017 at 11:06 am
Hang on, you’ve got Ireland up there at #4, about 75% better off per head than the UK? Even above Iceland, surely some mistake??
Why though?
heedtracker
LOZ, and I see as usual on these type of bollox articles, no comments section! I would have liked to ask the question, Labour is charge of Wales and Wales has been shown to be the poorest country in Western Europe, so does Corbyn want us to vote Labour and become poorer?
If Scotland were independent, we’d be suffering crippling shortages in succulent meaty chunks in gravy, and that’s not even looking at the dry food picture.
Phil Robertson @ 11:33,
You are a miserable little quibbler. A perfect example of the “kettle calling the pot”.
The plain fact is, as even any 10-year old can understand, that Scotland could make it economically on its own just fine. Even grumpy old Alistair Darling was grudgingly forced to admit that in his second debate with Alex Salmond in 2014. (It almost choked him to say it, mind you!)
In the end it has nothing whatever to do with economics. That was always just another tool in the Yoon FUD arsenal to unsettle waverers.
The truth of the matter is that people like you, for whatever other reason known only to yourselves, desperately want Scotland to stay under the control of another country, and you don’t actually give a toss that our wealth is continually sucked away elsewhere for someone else’s benefit.
Delighted to see Scotland is in the top 20 despite the ball and chain around our ankles. Bodes well for independence.
I’ve not listened to R Scotland at all today. It’s increasingly my habit to ignore it alltogether though good to hear reports from the front on WoS.
So the yearly roll-out of britnat sums portraying Scotland as subsidy junkie, when we all know it is in fact the other way around. rUK would sink without Scotland. Brexit means they need Scotland even more, but Scotland needs to escape, before it’s too late.
Surely the britnats at Holyrood will give the SNP a big pat on the back for performing miracles, ie, keeping Scotland’s head above water against massive odds. 300+ years of the so called union, has the penny dropped yet that it’s er, not doing Scotland any favours, to say the least?
England = what’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine, so shut up and be grateful Scotland!
@Martin McDonald says: 23 August, 2017 at 9:18 am:
“I have long wished the SNP would move away from the “small independent nation” rhetoric. It’s the successor to Labour’s “best wee country in the world”.”
So, Martin, it is the usual story then?
It’s all the SNP’s fault?
Aye!
Richt!
GERS 2016/17 Scotland’s notional deficit includes
£3.05 billion for UK Defence, Public Sector Debt Interest og £3.25 billion (including PFI) and “Accounting adjustments” of £5.13 billion
I thought I read somewhere a few years back that the “gers” had died???
Holy shit! I know scotland is a skittery useless dump, but what a bag of shite the UK is. We have to stop brexit now, the EU is what subsidises us all, we are just too wee and stupid.!
Phil Robertson is a defender of the “hide the data” school of unionism. If we(unionists) manage the reporting and decide the allocation WE WIN. If the evil Sepratists attempt to give a balanced assessment not then they scream “false data”…and WE WIN
In reality with full oil allocation (and Norway tax) plus honest figures on VAT (eg port of export) etc we would be several places above the listing in the article.
Scotland’s wealth is stolen “in support of the Empire”….the term used for most of the 20th. Century.
Unfortunately the unionist media, the trolls and ("Tractor" - Ed)s are still able to fool the public by the ongoing manipulation of revenue information.
Does anyone still believe Scotland is held tight in order to protect them? OR to bleed the natural resources to support the South of England.
heedtracker at 11:26 asks me why I’m puzzled and indeed somewhat incredulous over Ireland’s position.
Well if for a start if Ireland is doing so brilliantly (and I wouldn’t begrudge them their success if it’s real) how come the country isn’t flooded with returning former emigrants? How come there are still any Catholic/Nationalists left in the North, why stay there and take all the shite they get if life is so much better in the South and citizenship is granted for the asking?
But where does all this wealth come from? A little offshore oil, I concede. But if I remember my school geography (and teachers never lie?) then they have little industry, no important natural resources and a damp if mild climate that rather limits agriculture. How can you get fabulously rich on turf, whiskey, Guiness and cattle exports?
Moreover, have you ever heard of anyone emigrating to Ireland, aside perhaps from the odd academic or much needed specialist?
Slabour have a new vote SLab vid, all over Facebook, all about how terrible Scotrail is, under Dutch ownership. Usual dirty tricks but worth a look to watch SLabour mock the Netherlands. They’re a very odd crew SLab.
The problem is the GERS figures will be used once again by the MSM to rubbish the case for independence and a very gullable public will buy it. Maybe the National should do a story on how misleading GERS are.
Anyone else having problems with WoS twitter? It doesn’t load media and when I refresh I get a very basic page telling me I blocked Wings Over Scotland – not true.
Is it just me or is it time to get the tinfoil out?
Earlier, my Firefox browser refused to load WoS website telling me it didn’t have a security certificate.
Sigh.
A belter from Derek to chime with the Rev.’s thoughts…
http://derekbateman.scot/
Robert Kerr @ 10:59
With regard sterling, you may find this article of some note;
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/trends-and-targets/trends-and-targets-22082017
I know the writer “very very well”. Today, it triggered the drop process mooted which leads to parity.
GERS are nonsense
Meanwhile brexit britnats continue to wallow in their Dunkirk delusion. Tally ho, chaps, the cliff’s over here!
That very successful country called Ireland, are they not smaller than Scotland, didn’t they have a history of the Westminster Stealing their resources and lying to them that they couldn’t survive without them?
Did Ireland have 40 years worth of Oil revenue coming in?
Do you recall that their independent currency was called the Pound
So the GERS figures [deranged as they are] show a drop in the supposed deficit. And the day before this drop is reported the Rev story breaks in the britnat media. Well well well…
Ireland’s economy summary in Wikipedia:
The activities of multinational companies based in Ireland have made it one of the largest exporters of pharmaceutical agents, medical devices and software-related goods and services in the world.
Ireland’s exports also relate to the activities of large Irish companies (such as Ryanair, Kerry Group and Smurfit Kappa Group) and exports of mineral resources: Ireland is the seventh largest producer of zinc concentrates, and the twelfth largest producer of lead concentrates.
The country also has significant deposits of gypsum, limestone, and smaller quantities of copper, silver, gold, barite, and dolomite.
Tourism in Ireland contributes about 4% of GDP and is a significant source of employment.
Other goods exports include agri-food, cattle, beef, dairy products, and aluminum.
Ireland’s major imports include data processing equipment, chemicals, petroleum and petroleum products, textiles, and clothing.
Financial services provided by multinational corporations based at the Irish Financial Services Centre also contribute to Irish exports.
The difference between exports (€89.4 billion) and imports (€45.5 billion) resulted an annual trade surplus of €43.9 billion in 2010, which is the highest trade surplus relative to GDP achieved by any EU member state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland#Economy
Capella
I had to uninstall Firefox. The new version (55 I think) broke the whole show. Wouldn’t load websites and couldn’t even see Firefox’s own favourites list. Tried Chrome and it imported my Firefox favourites list no problem.
May try Firefox again now that Windows has just installed a massive 1.5 hour upgrade.
Derek Bateman makes the point about the GERS figures more eloquently than I have or could.
@ Handandshrimp – thx for the info. I’ve had huge problems recently (Windows 8.1) which only cleared up after uninstalling AVG – several times – it isn’t easy!
Now use Kaspersky.
I’d already moved from Chrome to Firefox because of previous problems with Chrome. Looks like I’ll have to move back. Every Windows update seems to create issues.
Curses.
@ Tinto Chiel
[Short of independence, I see no reason why a more federal UK cannot be made to work in the interests of all and am willing to work for it. Democracy before dogma.]
Acceptance of second best is is the default position of Westminster Tories/Slab/Libs , we’ve come a long road towards Independence with all its humps n bumps better to continue past the forks in that road . Bateman & nobody else will convince me , we would still get shafted .
@starlaw says: 23 August, 2017 at 9:28 am:
” … Why can we not see the figures for England and how much has the UK debt increased since this time last year?”
I’ve explained the reason many times before, starlaw, but I’ll explain it again. It cannot be propagated enough as the Scots buts still haven’t got it through their thick skulls.
The Westminster Establishment, (it pre-dates the Westminster Parliament of England by a substantial number of centuries with the ruling power of south Britain being centred on Londinium), has always managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the hoi polloi by over complicating how things were run.
For example the Romans did not directly run things but Romanised the existing South Britain leaders and had them run things for Rome under the orders of a Roman Governor. These Romanised Briton Leaders thus had a far better living than their underlings who, under the Romans were actually traded as slaves by the Romans. Roman Britain was a customs & Excise set-up like the rest of the Roman Empire but if the native Britons had any complaints they blamed the local Romanised Briton leaders and not the Romans.
When the Romans left the system continued under the Anglo-Saxon Germanic Tribes the Native Britons invited to south Britain to protect them, not so much, strangely enough, from the Northern Britons but from other factions of the Germanic tribes. The Roman Walls were much more customs barriers than they were defences against the North Britons.
After all North Britain, as today, had a small population but a wealth of natural resources. Why would they want to raid the south when they had everything the needed at home? A visit to the very sophisticated Stone Age Village dwellings of, for example Skara Brae. One of the Neolithic settlements on Scotland’s Northern Isles will prove that point.
http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/skarabrae/
The Anglo Saxons were, though, only part of the Germanic tribes the South Britons invited in to protect them and that elite leadership is still in power in today’s Britain and still using the same tactics to divide and conquer the native Britons.
The name, “Normans”, is a corruption of the term, “Norsemen”, that includes the Vikings and Germanic does not refer to modern Germany but more to the Scandinavian areas.
No one can deny those facts for not only is the still legally sovereign monarchy of England from the Sax-Cobourg and Gotha family but the hereditary peers of those Normans, who brought us the Feudal System still sit in the Westminster House of Lords.
So, when it came to the point where Westminster’s rule was under threat from the Irish, Welsh and Scottish independence movements Westminster launched their ambitious, “Cunning Plan”, – Devolution of Power. For a power devolved is a power retained.
Now you or I would have realised that, “The United Kingdom”. is a Treaty only between two equally sovereign Kingdoms, and our first move would have been to end the Union in an amicable and friendly manner that would have retained a more friendly, and probably strengthened, relationship between the two kingdoms. But Not The Westminster Establishment – they are not genetically programmed that way.
So they made devolution as complicated and unequal as they could manage to fool the voters. First they relegated their sole partner, the Kingdom of Scotland, to the same status as the two English dominion countries of Wales and what remnants they still controlled in Ireland. Westminster sandwiched the country of Scotland between Northern Ireland and Wales as just another English dominion and then dished out minimal devolved powers on a thoroughly unequal basis.
Northern Ireland got the most devolved powers, Wales got the least and the actual KINGDOM of Scotland was between the two English dominions of the Kingdom of England and assumed to now be also an English Dominion.
Not only that but they claim that the Treaty of Union had, “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom and thus devolved The country of England’s sovereign powers, (a.k.a, The Crown of England’s legal sovereignty), to the three underling English Dominions.
It real terms the setting up of Devolved Parliament only devolved the powers of the Country of England to three of the four United Kingdom countries and assumed that England was the master race that owned them all and thus Westminster is now the de facto Parliament of England with three slave dominions and there is factually no such parliament elected as the parliament of England.
An honest Westminster would have split the United Kingdom into its proper two partner kingdoms then split the Kingdom of England’s three countries equally and invited the Kingdom of Scotland to join with the three country kingdom of England to end the monarch and become the four equal states of a federal Britain and furthermore would have invited the three Crown Protectorates to become associate, self government, states.
Westminster Establishment people, though, are not genetically programmed to be honest brokers.
Trying to find the article in a currency traders magazine about the UK government spending to prop up the value of Sterling.
Sterling has dropped and so imports and consequently prices rise. Raw food imports and the fuel to transports them pushes food on the supermarket shelf prices even further up.
The magazine said at the rate the UK gov was spending they would run out of funds by the end of the 3rd quarter of 2017. Then we’d really have a reason to panic. Then it would be live on porridge oats and pasta or not pay the rent. We wouldn’t be handing that stuff into the foodbank anymore we’d be eating it our selves.
I think we can also make the claim that Scots have contributed significantly to the economies of all the countries above us.
In Finland a few years ago I discovered their main textile industries were founded by a Scotsman by the name of Finlayson in Tampere and the businesses are still going strong.
As the table shows, it’s unfortunate but we’ve not done enough to stop the rUk falling behind
Stu sorry but this is sort of OT so delete if you want.
Discussion with 2 englishmen last night. 1 aristocratic, well he thinks so. Main contribution ‘when we(england) owed half the world’ countries were glad to buy englands goods and out of EU they will flock back. On Scotland ‘we should be happy that england supported our country. WM should take back control and cut spending to Scotland.
2nd was Danny Dyer, diamond geezer, East End. Scotland couldn’t run itself, survives on english handouts, has no industry, no oil, gives out free education prescriptions, etc all paid for by english. If english had vote they would have got rid of the subsidy junkies in Scotland. Every time I tried to give figures or discuss what he said I got another lecture. On EU england financed it along with dastardly Germans, EU would fail without england,
Trade deals wuth US, china india Australia new Zealand etc would be knocking at englands door to trade. I found his attiude to germans frighteningly like old racist (I kike the germans but….) He was still fighting WWII. Sorry for rant and btw constant use of england instead of Britain or UK was his. I had to leave and last night my last lingering feelings for the english vanished. Sooner we’re gone the better
I note that Ireland, Denmark, Norway and Iceland – all neighbours with similar or worse geography – are further up the list. And this is the Union at work for Scotland?
Irish energy summary Wikipedia:
Ireland is a net energy importer. Ireland’s import dependency decreased to 85% in 2014 (from 89% in 2013). The cost of all energy imports to Ireland was approximately €5.7 billion…
While the production of electricity for the Irish national grid, by nuclear fission, is legally prohibited by Ireland under Electricity Regulation Act, 1999 (Section 18),[17] the enforcement of this prohibition is naturally only possible within the borders of Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Ireland
Not pointing the finger at you Rev, but isn’t there worthwhile research to be done and supporting article needing to written to explain how and why, in specific detail, Scotland’s GDP would actually change?
We are all encouraged to believe it would, but HOW would our GDP be different and improved after Independence?
I know straight away, the big GERS problem arises over the data available held back by the Treasury, but even without all the pieces, you can still prove the formula even if it has gaps left for variable integers that are missing.
Right now, “we”, that is YES, should be processing this information, and getting it boiled down to quick-on-the-draw Wee Book simplicity, and augmented with Phantom Power dynamism. Correction, make that MORE Phantom Power dynamism. The Richard Murphy film was great.
YES should take the initiative, and pick the battleground for the inevitable economic debate to come, so that the debate is framed by our well researched and documented figures, and not framed by the UKOK media bolstering discredited GERS figures, which makes us look “shifty” in trying to discredit them.
Take the initiative and get the argument where we want it to be. Wherever GERS becomes murky and lacks detail, YES should be shining an all seeing searchlight.
It must be upsetting for the Unionists that the GERS so called deficit has narrowed rather than widened.
However, I am sure they will fap themselves silly at the notion that Scotland is Yemen’s poor relation…using only dog food as lubrication.
heedtracker says
“In which case you should tune in to BBC Scotland all day today. Naw thanks”
Since I stopped doing just that I find my blood pressure has stabilised as I’ve stopped shouting at the radio/TV. Have decided that my time is better spent educating myself about what’s really going on and preparing evidence to counter “the too wee too poor” brigade’s arguments.
We need to be ready cos I believe the time is coming sooner than we think.
Basically the UK is dragging Scotland down with it and holding us back but we all know that already
Its what the unionist parties have been peddling for decades, if not hundreds of years to people in England.
That Scotland only survives on the generosity of English Hand outs, so hardly surprising then that people in England have been conditioned to believe that rubbish.
They use the same argument against immigrants, about using public services and taking British jobs, houses etc.
Agree completely, Ronnie. DB’s attitude to federalism is the weak part of his essay, but his thoughts on GERS are timely.
I’m surprised about that, since he says he is a Scottish nationalist.
Federalism is a complete dead-end imo and is always touted by unionists to waste our time.
Mebbe it’s an ex-BBC thing: Mr MacWhirter likes it too.
I want independence and I want it now.
Interesting Lindsay. Again we can trot oyt this comparison to the discredited GERS.
Cant wait for Richard Murphy’s take on them.
BBC r4 vote tory lunchtime news went mental at GERS last year but not a peep out of the gimps this time. Shock:D
They’re over in NI today, boosting up the Ulster Scots to high UKOK heaven instead.
Totally ignoring oil revenues for the ONSHORE deficit, the figures for the last 7 years (first published figures) are:
2009-10 £19.9 bn 17.8%
2010-11 £18.6 bn 15.6%
2011-12 £18.2 bn 14.6%
2012-13 £17.6 bn 14.0%
2013-14 £16.4 bn 12.2%
2014-15 £16.7 bn 11.9%
2015-16 £14.9 bn 10.1%
The onshore deficit for 2016-17 is £13.5 billion – 9%.
So the onshore deficit is moving steadily downwards, while services are being maintained.
The graphs on page 6 show this steadily improving position for Scotland.
Oil is a bonus.
Good article Rev, however alas it will be the GERS figures hitting the headlines doing down Scotland.
Ironically BBC covered GERS with a good headline:
“Gers figures: Scottish economy deficit cut to £13.3bn”
It left Tom Gordon of the Herald to put a negative spin on it.
“Oil price collapse blamed for £10bn gap in forecast public finances”
with Scott MacNab of the Scotsman halfway, but obsessed with black holes:
“GERS: Scotland’s spending black hole falls to £13.2bn“
Tinto Chiel says:
Agree completely.
I would go further and therefore disagree with Derek Bateman. A truly federal UK is not in Scotland’s interests.
I know the ‘equal partners’ element of the status quo is guff in practice, however if we moved to a federal setup then under the new UK constitution, Scotland would be reduced to the legal and constitutional status of region. We might be equal partners with other regions, but we cannot claim to be a sovereign nation.
That said, there isn’t a snowball in Hell’s chance of England, London, and Westminster moving to a federal constitution. It will never happen. Talking about it is therefore definitely a deflection tactic and nothing else,
@David McCann says:23 August, 2017 at 9:59 am:
“Interesting graph.
As a matter of interest,has Scotland’s contribution to UK been stripped out of. uK as that would make UK figure lower?”
Well, David, there really is no point whatsoever in attempting to analyse the figures as given for the very good reason that few, if any, quoted figure is an actual figure. The figures are guesstimates by thoroughly dishonest people.
The whole system is so badly cobbled together that any accurate total is impossible to verify. There are so many fiddles, fudges a f***ups and we can only guess at some of the more blatant ones.
First of all there is the big one of, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, earned revenue. The whole concept of, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, is downright dishonesty. For example, while the United Kingdom’s, (that term is now also a dishonest term). Treasury that has become factually the Treasury of the unelected as such de facto parliament of the country of England that is in name only, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom”.
Let’s try and explain that set of downright lies, shall we?
To begin with we will consider the extra-regio-territory oil & gas revenues. These are not only the also fudged term, “North Sea”, Oil & Gas Revenues but also those massive new reserves from the west of Shetland oil & gas fields.
However we do know that over 89% of those Extra-Regio-Revenues are factually not from an unidentifiable extra-regio-territory but are extracted, in geographic terms, from territory that falls under internationally recognised territory that falls under Scottish legal jurisdiction and would thus, in an independent Scotland be undisputed Scottish oil & gas.
Yet every penny of Extra-Regio-Raised revenue goes directly into the wrongly titled United Kingdom Treasury. There is no longer a United Kingdom treasury as Westminster is now the de facto parliament of the country, (not the kingdom), of England yet there is no such organ as an elected as such Parliament of England.
Note that the oft claimed, “English Taxpayers money”, Westminster subsidises Scotland with does not exist. If there is no parliament of England then that money is United Kingdom Money and Scots are taxed as United Kingdom taxpayers and we thus are only getting a fraction of our own tax money returned to Scotland and a big whack of that is oil & gas revenues raised from Scottish territorial waters.
And that is just one of the many scams Westminster uses to steal whatever it chooses from Scotland.
Here’s another one. Scotland has been a net exporter of food, (and drink), Fuel and electric power since, in the case of electricity, at least 1946. England or indeed the UK, has always been a net importer of all three commodities. Yet the way Westminster calculates the UK countries exports is by classing it as belonging to the UK country from which it leaves the UK. Not as belonging to the UK country that produces it.
Almost all Scotch Whisky, 70% of UK Gin and much of the beer & ale exported as English Exports originates from Scotland. As does Salmon, both smoked and unsmoked. It leaves Britain from English ports and airports and the UK calles it English exports.
Add to this such scams as the Electricity National Grid Connection charges by which the UK charges more for each unit of electricity added to the grid by a generator the further from London the generator is situated but also pays a subsidy to generators closest to London and thus the country that is a net exporter of electricity is paying extra to add power to the grid and the country that is a net importer of electricity is being paid to add electricity to the national grid.
Now is the GERS figures con trick getting through to you, David? That, by the way, is only scratching the surface.
Surely Derek’s point is that the kingdom of Scotland would be independent and might well choose to share sovereignty in certain areas – how that is done would be for both states to decide.
@galamcennalath
The thing about a federal system, apart from meaning in its own right that the Scottish Government would by neccessity have far more control over the fiances – and spending – is that it would be a huge step further towards Independence, and therefore there would be less ammunition for those opposing Independence to use to sway the doubters.
As Salmond said years ago, there is an underlying majority (quite a large one) for Independence, the problem is convincing them to vote YES. I found the same problem “out there”. People were for the idea (heart), but against what they saw as the reality (mind).
Paula Rose
Brexit England don’t seem the kind of people that are into sharing much at all though. Even if it means they lose economically. Although this is what BetterTogether told us too, 2014. Pool and share, its good thing, but for whom?
well Momentum revealed their true colours (Red white and Blue) with their propaganda video on ScotRail. MI5 would be proud.
I would like to hear major criticism of the GERS figures from every senior SNP politician over the next few days at every opportunity no matter the main topic they are speaking on. I suspect I will wait in vain.
This is what the Tories do big time.
The question is this Stu. How do we get this information into the defeatist cadaver Scots minds. There is an answer, but it can’t ever happen in this country.
We can reverse the brainwash programme by having a year or two of positive mainstream media coverage. Talking up Scotland rather than continually looking at ways to attack it.
This is not part of the UK agenda so BBC et al , will just keep on trucking.
This is maybe the paper the SNP release yesterday related to:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/countryandregionalpublicsectorfinances/2015to2016#net-fiscal-balance
“Table 1: Net Fiscal Balance from FYE 2014 to FYE 2016, by country and region” under “net fiscal balance.
I’m just starting looking.
Sorry, that’s not the table.
Ian Lang – of GERS fame knew exactly what he was doing in presenting GERS to the world , it is not a fiscal construct it a political Club thats been used since its inception to confuse and distract , its sole purpose is to give annual ammunition to unionists to wound the SNP , it that simple .it’s a weapon .
As to derek Batman’s federal view , that cul de sac route won’t work even if it is agreed to by our bigger neighbour ,we would be in the same box as say yorkshire or regions of england with approx the same size population , Yorkshire is not a country with its own legal and education system , Federalism would be a worse situation that this union , if they cant after 300 years operate a union whats the chances of federalism working Zilch , nada , Nyet , not a bloody hope in hell .It’s a distraction .
Great stuff. More like this please.
Kevin,
“If Scotland were independent, we’d be suffering crippling shortages in succulent meaty chunks in gravy”
Getting your point, even without the pie-chart 🙂
But…
With a quarter of the UK’s beef production and only 1/12th of the population, I hardly think that likely.
Richard Murphy on today’s Gers
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/08/23/gers-2017-why-it-remains-irrelevant-to-scottish-decision-making/
I haven’t read Derek’s blog yet. However I can’t even describe the feeling of panic when the federal word is brought into any debate. It’s absolutely independence for me. No more “working” with the Westminster mafia. After 310 years of being a colony of the empire you would think we would know better than to trust anything Westminster says it will do. We can be a helpful friendly neighbour but nothing more. Do we honestly believe they would allow any autonomy of any of the new states. They can’t help it they are drunk on power…they have to be in control…and we, in Scotland will once again be the loser.
Independence nothing more…nothing less! The children of the future generations need us to stand strong and stable!
@yesindyref2
Is this the one
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/july2017#how-big-is-public-sector-debt
So because of the SNP Scotland is five places higher meaning if we had Unionist parties in charge in Holyrood we’d be the same as rUK
Isn’t that what they’re always saying, that we should be the same, which is worse off innit?
Hee Hee!
@Nana
Don’t think so, that doesn’t break it down by “region”.
From the SNP release:
https://www.snp.org/gers_a_snapshot_of_scotland_s_finances_not_the_full_picture
the link they give is:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/countryandregionalpublicsectorfinances/2015to2016
but I see there’s now an update on the SNP website:
https://www.snp.org/scotland_economy_gers_figures_explained
“GERS figures explained”
which I shall proceed to read 🙂
I to detest any idea of a federation. Scotland would be voted down at every vote. Independence should be the only card in play.
Federalism is just another way of saying regionalisation. It’s a country we are and a countries status we demand. Scottish is a stand alone nationality Bavarian is an identity within another country.
We are not Bavaria or Quebec. We are Scotland and Scottish.
@Breeks
“We are all encouraged to believe it would, but HOW would our GDP be different and improved after Independence?”
By the incumbent government increasing the money supply and directing it into the productive economy – job creation. Hopefully targeted at Scotland’s massive energy potential.
That’s how GDP is increased if you want to use that metric. Spending creates income.
Much in the way of money creation in the UK has been for the purposes of speculation by the commercial banks. This is what caused the financial crisis.
Iceland is a more pertinent example of a small country expanding its balance sheet to create jobs. Have a look at their data and you can see the result
Tinto Chiel says:
23 August, 2017 at 1:27 pm
“Agree completely, Ronnie. DB’s attitude to federalism is the weak part of his essay, but his thoughts on GERS are timely.
I’m surprised about that, since he says he is a Scottish nationalist.
Federalism is a complete dead-end imo and is always touted by unionists to waste our time.
Mebbe it’s an ex-BBC thing: Mr MacWhirter likes it too.”
I can see where he’s coming from. Don’t think federalism, but confederalism, where member states in a political union have a “get out” option derived from their sovereignty. That means a Union which either Nation can turn off and on like a tap. It’s the essence of the EU; progress by unanimous consensus, but individual members have their sovereign veto.
If the ScotRef fails to deliver the outright majority for Independence, then a renegotiated confederal arrangement which sees Scottish sovereignty respected would be a worthy second prize.
Why? Because a confederal Union which respects Scotland’s sovereign veto is a Union which can be ended unilaterally at any time. The constitutional parameters of both or all constituent nations are not compromised in the way Scotland’s sovereignty has been and is compromised by the UK Union. The fact Scotland has an “end the Union” failsafe is made crystal clear to all parties, but the real material benefit is Scotland suddenly has a sovereign right of veto to kill off any legislation it doesn’t want to entertain. In essence, we don’t kill off the Union, but fix it so Scotland’s sovereignty is respected.
In short, the Union exists, but not as we know it. It survives by the very skin of its teeth, and only ever for as long as it takes a sovereign vote to finally terminate it.
From my own perspective, and you all know my fixation about sovereignty, Scotland already has that sovereign right to say no right now, but doesn’t understand its power. It said no in 2016, but neither Westminster nor Holyrood respected what it meant. Too much Sovereignty all at once is too difficult to handle …it would seem.
So, Independence will go to a referendum, with YES entrenched and intransigent on one side, and Unionists equally entrenched on the other, with precious little common ground in between.
If that situation creates stalemate, or even looks like creating stalemate, then that precious little piece of common ground could very well be an interim compromise; a confederal UK for as many years, months, weeks, days or hours it can survive. The last rites for the Union from the YES perspective, the last chance for the Union for Unionists, but supporters for a confederal UK could be the deciding factor in a “hung” or indecisive referendum.
I feel an classic question come over me which John Robertson was once asked in a debate. “We know what your first choice would be, but if you couldn’t have your first choice, what would your second choice be?”.
We all know our first choice is Independence, but if that eludes us, what would our second choice be? Subjugation in the Brexited Union? Or a confederal UK which empowers Scotland’s sovereign voice and sovereign choice to remain in Europe? Oh yes.. and full on Indy on the first windy day.
Don’t dismiss the idea. A confederal UK with one sovereign nation in the EU having unique and historical trading practices with its non-EU neighbour, could sugar coat Scotland’s sovereign independence by giving England the POSSIBILITY of a soft Brexit, and heaven forbid, some later date reconciliation and EU membership for England.
Could Westminster be persuaded to see the merit in Scotland’s Independent status? Of course not… at least, not until it was inevitable, or Brexit was looking incredibly bleak. But even where and when Independence does become inevitable, the disposition of Westminster towards Scottish Independence could have a great bearing on how our hardline Unionists react.
We can all get our heads around a holding pen status for Scotland in Europe. What if a confederal UK was to be thought of as a similar holding pen option for Scotland exiting the U.K.?
Interesting question.
Which country is more sovereign. One which can supply its own energy needs or one which has to import its energy?
So post Indy which country in the British isles will be most sovereign?
yesindyref2 says:
It might, but the same could be done under the present Union and further devolution. The fabled DevoMax even. The present system could, with no significant change, devolve everything but the military and foreign affairs. (All academic because the Establishment won’t decentralise any more anyway).
A federal system – Germany, US etc gives regions/states clear powers but it also enshrines central powers. It needs a full written constitution the changing of which is intentionally made difficult.
Big Jock says:
Which is the way I see it. Moving to a formal federal region would diminish Scotland’s status. (Again, all academic. England would never agree to a federal system.)
Now, a confederation of sovereign nation states agreeing to pull and share certain services, that is something else to consider. Problem again is it’s all win for Scotland, all lose for the UK so will never happen.
I haven’t noticed a certain Mr C Alexander lately , i do hope i have his name right , anyway i hope he is in good health ,perhaps he is undergoing some much needed social skills training as he has recently been upsetting a few folk here , anyway best wishes .
Swiss Perspective says:
23 August, 2017 at 1:12 pm
‘I note that Ireland, Denmark, Norway and Iceland – all neighbours with similar or worse geography – are further up the list. And this is the Union at work for Scotland?’
Basically that is the long and short of it. This is how the so called ‘union’ works, not, for Scotland.
Just as a matter of interest, silly me but why does Scotland have to justify anything economically, when to all intents and purposes Scotland is shackled to the rUK, who pull the strings, and set the budget that Scotland has to manage on?
Anyone would think that Scotland has fiscal autonomy if they didn’t know better, rather than having her revenues taken by rUK and the English treasury, who then condescend to send back a few crumbs with lightweight powers ie devolution, and labelled as being heavily subsidised by said English (Government).
Something doesn’t seem to be quite right here. I wonder why.
Well worth reading this:
https://www.snp.org/scotland_economy_gers_figures_explained
“GERS figures explained”
The way I see GERS is this.
1). The Scottisg Government have a statutory role,, and that restricts the commentary they can make.
2). The SNP are a political party can can say what they like about GERS, but are the aprty of government. It looks though as if they’re coming out fighting on this, something a few posters on Wings have complained about. I think the battle is now beginning.
3). YES is much more than the SNP, and groups, sub-groups and indivivuals can say what we like about GERS, there are multiple ways to tackle it, and we all have our own way.
Mines’s statistical and financial – I take the figures as they are, look at trends – downwards deficit including the onshore deficit without oil revenues, suitability for the EU – we do have a deficit reduction plan that’s working, entry to the eurozone – we can’t yet as we’re too much above the 3%, but we shoud be there by 2022 – if we wanted to join, and were ready and wanted to enter the ERM2 for 2 years.
I think all approaches to GERS are valid arguments.
I note Scotland is above NZ despite having less than 1/3 of the landmass. This is because Scotland is much more industrialised and has a much more developed infrastructure. NZ is arguing over whether it should tarseal a section of a State Highway (an A-road in British parlance).
It should be stated that fully 1/3 of NZ is National Park or other conservation reserve and they are utterly unlike a British National Park. You won’t find a farm within the park boundary, or a working mine, yet. They are truly wild places.
Occasionally Japanese TV descends on Fiordland (SW corner South Island) with a recording of their latest reconstruction of the call of the moa, the extinct flightless birds of NZ. The bush there is so dense, the land so rugged it is just biologically possible that a species of the smaller sort of bush moa might still exist there.
NZ also has only a small amount of oil and a bit of gas. Virtually nowhere has reticulated gas, it is bottled. Power and phone lines run on poles, festooning suburban streets. These are mostly imported Australian hardwood. All over the country. They have to have metal collars about 1/3 of the way up to stop the brushtailed possum, a feral vermin species from Australia, from climbing them, electrocuting themselves and causing blackouts. Heavy wind and snow regularly cuts the power as it brings the lines down. Trees fall on them.
But still, fibre, buried properly in the footpaths is being installed. Better late than never.
The year is 2019. Brexit is hard. The short but exhausting campaigning for IndyRef2 is over and a convincing Yes victory has been achieved. This has been helped in part by the EU’s guaranteed offer of an ongoing close relationship for an iScotland within the single market, either as full member or ‘Norway style’.
Then the negotiations with Westminster must begin to dismantle the Union.
If the handling of Brexit negotiations between the EU/UK are anything to go by ….. it is going to be like nailing treacle to the ceiling!
” EU says Britain is still debating its own Brexit position months after triggering Article 50 …. The EU has taken a swipe at the British government’s lack of clarity in Brexit negotiations – accusing David Davis’s team of not having solid negotiating goals months after the start of talks.”
http://archive.is/VEbfq (Text only)
@galamcennalath
I think under a federal system, there would (or should) be no such thing as “reserved powers”, meaning the Scottish Gvoernment could take back anything it delegated to London, and even end the federal arrangement if and whenever it wanted.
That might not be what Labour want, but I don’t think it could properly be called a “federal” system if it wasn’t set up that way. It would be kind of an updated Treaty of Union, and Act of Union with England, but on far better terms, and ones totally under our control.
There are three things that still stand true:
FAO the new readers that missed the first 500 comments yesterday:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fine-art-of-omission/comment-page-1/#comments
Them big gold bars sticking out of our North Sea are just too terrible.
Cheers Lindsay, have ye a smashin’ day Scotland.
“GERS SCHMERS”
@ starlaw: “I to detest any idea of a federation. Scotland would be voted down at every vote.”
Indeed, preciesly why it would be such an inevitable step on the way to Independence.
“Independence should be the only card in play.”
With a federal Scotland, it really WOULD be the only card in play, no confusion possible. And since it would be clear that a federation can’t work when 85% of the population is in one big block vote, it would be very clear to the people of Scotland that it wasn’t working.
Comedian Ken Cheng won the prize for the best joke at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe with this gag:
“I’m not a fan of the new pound coin, but then again, I hate small change.”
The gag was posted on Bloomberg as ‘ I hate all change’. You couldn’t guess that Bloomberg is pro-Union.
Has the dog food seller made a profit yet? His company’s figures should be released at the same time as GERS. 🙂
IMO no system, federal or confederal, call it what you like, would be viable without full fiscal autonomy. As GERS demonstrates, Scotland is subsidising rUK therefore, as galamcennalath points out win/win for Scotland. Federalism would not be agreed by rUK if Scotland will be economically better off than themselves. They would still want to obfuscate shared and independent assets.
Better with a clean break.
Hi Muscleguy
My daughter’s partner works for Enable in (I think) a coordinator type role for the fibre cable going into Christchurch.
Re the power cables on poles. Reminiscent of the States. But doesn’t NZ have additional reasons for burying them? i.e. quakes and ground movement.
I’d say the standard of living in NZ was much higher than in Scotland or the rUK. Larger homes and gardens, loads of ‘gadgets’ etc. although subject to limited experience of course.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 23 August, 2017 at 10:39 am:
““Does the United Kingdom bit include or exclude Scotland?”
It includes it, obviously. The IMF doesn’t produce figures for the UK without Scotland, that would be ludicrous. If we mean “rUK”, we’ll say “rUK”.”
Now I’m sorry to be picky, Rev Stu, but – As the United Kingdom is not a country, it is a union of two kingdoms, if you exclude the Kingdom of Scotland there isn’t an rUK.
What remains is the other, “partner”. (and I use that term loosely), in the United Kingdom is, “The Kingdom of England”.
The fact that it includes three countries is irrelevant.
@ Muscelguy – I think you’ll find that it is the UK which is different to all other countries when it comes to National Parks. Ours are Cat 4 i.e. not really National Parks at all, more “managed landscapes” where development is allowed.
The Park Authority is the Planning Authority and is lobbied by the usual vested interest groups to allow development.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_protected_area_categories
Err NOT burying them.
@yesindyref2
“Mines’s statistical and financial – I take the figures as they are, look at trends – downwards deficit including the onshore deficit without oil revenues, suitability for the EU – we do have a deficit reduction plan that’s working, entry to the eurozone – we can’t yet as we’re too much above the 3%, but we shoud be there by 2022 – if we wanted to join, and were ready and wanted to enter the ERM2 for 2 years.”
Which would of course be disasterous.
‘Deficit reduction plan. You’re thinking in terms of micro and not macro economics.
The deficit size is down to the spending propensity of the private sector. If the private sector as a whole saves, the deficit increases. Taking money out the economy when the private sector is at a low eb worsens the situation. That’s neoliberal thinking.
The 3% deficit figure Is neoliberal ideology.
Anyone getting confused over the ‘meaning’ of the word federalism, just remember it emerging from the mouth of serial liar Gordon Brown and ask yourself why he used it repeatedly.
Then give yourself a serious talking-to and don’t do it again!
😉
Guardian is looking for responses from Scottish voters who may or may not be considering “going back to labour”. In case anyone feels like responding. Sorry but I couldn’t get archiving to work:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/23/are-you-a-scottish-voter-who-has-turned-back-to-labour
And the Scottish government – shamefully IMO – allowed the power companies to build giant pylons through the Cairngorms National Park to transport electricity to Denny where it can be shipped down south.
English authorities insisted the cables were buried to preserve the landscape.
Okey dokey. To repeat the onshore deficits from the originally published GERS for each year (comparing like for like):
2009-10 £19.9 bn 17.8% of GDP
2010-11 £18.6 bn 15.6%
2011-12 £18.2 bn 14.6%
2012-13 £17.6 bn 14.0%
2013-14 £16.4 bn 12.2%
2014-15 £16.7 bn 11.9%
2015-16 £14.9 bn 10.1%
2016-17 £13.5 bn 9%.
Indy Ref 2019: projected 2018-19 £11.7 bn – 6.5% of GDP
Independence 2021: projected 2020-21 £9.9 bn – 4% of GDP
In the overall deficit figure including geographical oil, that would be minus whatever oil revenues there were, plus the increase that goes with it to GDP which reduces its deficit %age of GDP, so by Indy the chances are Scotland would have a deficit just over 3% of GDP, and less than £10 billion.
Sounds good to me.
Robert Peffers at 4:11
This is the sort of thing which makes me want to scream when such jobsworth attitudes are taken.
And then… a few minutes later, realise you just made a serious point worth considering.
When we do achieve indie, there can be no rUK. Instead, an amalgam of England, Wales, and Ireland.
Can you imagine it, trying to deal with the Ewuki without giggling.
I see from Stu’s twitter that Labour have mendaciously circulated a video on facebook blaming the Scottish Government for the fact that the railways haven’t been renationalised.
Momentum and Owen Jones the prime suspects with Jeremy Corbyn’s tour of Scotland coinciding.
https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/900338569100664833
robert peffers
When the Romans left the system continued under the Anglo-Saxon Germanic Tribes the Native Britons invited to south Britain to protect them, not so much, strangely enough, from the Northern Britons but from other factions of the Germanic tribes
—————
didnt vortigen invite the anglo saxons to defend them from pictish and irish invasions?
@osakisushi
Sounds good to me.
But allowing the rUK to call itself the cUK (Continuing UK), and keeping the name UK, will be a huge negotiating asset in the coffers of the Scottish Indy negotiating team.
Can you imagine the rUK having to go to the Yanks and say “umm, err, we’re now called Ewuki” (or Ewni)?
Federalism? No way. The post-imperial UK state needs to be dismantled, “it is essentially an anachronistic and parasitical resource-purloining robber state of a type which the world, and specifically Europe, would be better off without.” (quote from the rueclementmarot blogspot which ended after the referendum)
i’ve nothing against federalism, i just dont believe westminster or corbyn would ever deliver it. indeed, even granting scotland the ability to calculate or know the true extent of its own finance is beyond westminsters ability. thats why we have GERS.
imagine what would happen if we knew exactly how much, eg salmon is shipped through heathrow but attributed to englands economy?
even a federal UK would not survive such revelations, our favourite dog food salesman would struggle to make any positive graphs for the UK
so while federalism might be desirable to some, since it can never happen, independence is the only solution.
federalism or devo max is a bird that has flown long since
Capella
mcternan has recently joined momentum, i sense his hand in this
GERS day is groundhog day. Same old….
@ schrodingers cat 5:06 pm :
“mcternan has recently joined momentum”
In that case surely we should be running a sweepstake on how long before Corbyn is toast?
The thing is peeps, even taking their usual distorted view of GERS, today’s figures give the Unionists less alarming figures to spin. And it’s very easy to point out that the trend of any deficit, whether real or illustrative, is very clearly DOWN.
Today’s GERS are not good news for Unionists. Even dog food salesmen.
@ shrodingers cat – Perhaps McTernan is an undercover agent secretly plotting to bring about the downfall of the Labour Party. Only explanation that fits the facts.
The Scottish figures are meaningless, cooked up by the bean counters.
What can be noted is that the mighty UK is 25th on the list.
Iceland, treated as a terrorist state by Gordon Brown, is 7th on the list.
Ka mylchreest 12.11pm. Why have over a 100.000 brit retirees chosen the Irish Republic.?
Mmm, could I suggest signing this petition with expressive first names (the surname just gets the initial), which publishes the comment instantly? Things like “The Scottish Government do a great job” perhaps …
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/768/510/169/?src=MOMfb&campaign=sign_768510169
#ownit
Question for yoons. Why doesn’t Westminster truthfully tell us what Scotlands exports are worth separately. What are they hiding? I mean why subsidise a useless region who want independence.
What about the £4Billion a year Oil tax revenues lost through Westminster mismanagement. Taxed 40% since Jan 2016. Losing thousands of jobs. The debt/loan repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. The £1Billion on Trident. The £1Billion that could be saved with minimum pricing. The £3Billion lost on tax evasion. Whisky companies etc pay no tax on vast profits in Scotland. Total £13Billion. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy, The EU renewable Grants etc lost because of Westminster indecision. Total £20Billion+.
The money lost on illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Westminster has caused the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Costing £Billions.
More signs that the good ship UK plc, may be going down, is in an article on Bloomberg a few hours ago.
Entitled “U.K. Economy May Be Even Weaker Than It Looks, Says UBS Model” with sub heading ‘Economist says pace of expansion may drop close to zero’ and ‘GDP rose 0.3% in second quarter, data Thursday will confirm’
Lead paragraph states ‘The U.K. economy may be even in worse shape than it looks.
That’s the message from UBS AG, which says it’s headed for near-stagnation. Economists led by Pierre Lafourcade at Switzerland’s largest bank said their new model strips out volatility in data to show growth has “softened substantially since the beginning of the year” and is headed “close to zero in the near future.”’
With the UK expected to loose around 30% of trade due to Brexit, it really doesn’t look good at all of the UK
So expect a lot of Westminster obfuscation about the UK’s economy with the help of the media in coming days and weeks
starting with the really crap GDP figure tomorrow
Those interested article is here : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-23/u-k-economy-may-be-even-weaker-than-it-looks-says-ubs-model
Brexit will damage the Scottish economy. Scotland voted to Remain.
Why the hell is Nicola Sturgeon on the news giving credibility to the GERS guesstimate figures, by saying that the billions in deficit are going down.
The SNP are far too nice, almost compliant.
Guess we should all be very grateful that ‘ohhhhhh ohhh Corbiiiinnn’ has come to Scotland to save us from ourselves, on this jovial GERSday. Vote anything, just not SNP, those inept nats. Labour, I mean, Tories, would do a much better job. After all they always look after Scotland, Scotland’s people and work in Scotland’s interests.
No ta Jezza. We can get along just fine without you. Can you and your Tory pals survive without Scotland. You might have to, and hopefully before too long. 🙂
Ohhhh, (Trident supporting, Brexit lover) Corbiiiinnn. .
@ Andy-B – sometimes (maybe always) the BBC only broadcasts the bits of SNP interviews it deems suitable for the public to hear.
“mcternan has recently joined momentum”
In that case surely we should be running a sweepstake on how long before Corbyn is toast?
If John has joined Momemtum then the express purpose will be to ensure Corbyn is toast.
Momemtum’s anti-Dutch video is telling. Corbyn and Farage really are two sides of the same coin.
@Andy-B
Sturgeon is the First Minister of Scotland, the head of the Scottish Government, and even though based on estimates, GERS are the official accounts of devolved Scotland.
How do you think it would sound to the 4.1 million voters of Scotland, if the FM of Scotland said on TV “Well, they’re crap, but we produce them anyway”?
Re;Andy b @6.06
Perhaps Nicola needs some better advisers? You are correct, debunk, and say at every opportunity that these are UKGov figs, what they are based on, nothing that is actually based in reality, and that they only touch the surface, as part of this lovely, er, stealing, scheming, imo, union.
Use Tory tactics, if needed, and say that we don’t need to explain ourselves while shackled to this so called union, and why we don’t. Come on Nicola, stop being nice!
Re;Capella@4.26
When was that? Be interested to know who was in charge at Holyrood then.
The Kevvy GERS bounce…
http://imgur.com/a/nDFqu
K.A.Mylchreest @ 12:11 says
[i]… have you ever heard of anyone emigrating to Ireland, aside perhaps from the odd academic or much needed specialist?[/i]
Well, I know someone who until this ear used to spend half a year in Dublin, working in a pub. (Not now, has young family to look after.)
Dropped a “y” somewhere in the Irish sea.
Total revenues raised £58Billion. Increased £4Billion. Without Oil revenues. With a Oil revenues it would be £62Billion. Rest of the UK raises £43.5Billion pro rata.
Scotland gets back £28Billion Block Grant. £Billion? capital payment. £14Billion (UK) Pensions/benefits. Contributes £3.5Billion Defence. £50Billion.
As I keep saying, keep away from the obfuscating internal UK accountancy methods as much as possible.
That means:
1. Resource to population ratio using raw data.
2. Balance of Trade figures which come under international scrutiny and deal with total in versus total out. Much harder to fiddle.
3. Realise that the ‘England Effect’ is proportionately a much bigger distortion of Scottish trade to Europe and beyond than the ‘Rotterdam Effect’ is to the UK.
For example the latest HMRC regional breakdown figures for international trade balance here below.
Note Scotland is the ONLY region of the UK with a Trade SURPLUS.
The overall UK Trade Deficit is about £140 billion, nearly $200 billion. England being responsible for nearly all of it.
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx
Scotland is doing, smirks Union Jackie
The A9 is behind schedule and disrupting travellers, just like the Queensferry Crossing, says Murdo WATP
Well, true to form, Jakiburd managed to get her “But critics say…” in, regarding the dualling of the A9.
Other critics (not misreported) say that Labour and the Lib-Dems should have done something about it when they didn’t know what to spend a Billion+ quid on, when they were in charge.
Film at 11…
If we go into the next Indy Ref without having completely debunked the GERS Figures and shown it to be nefarious subterfuge, i think lose.
If every person of sound mind has been shown over and over, over whelming evidence that GERS figures are relatively useless, and here’s why, and this is officially backed up by all senior Indy bods including the SNP And Green Party, i think we win.
In games of politics, where there is to be a vote, it is optimal to accuse or have others accuse your opponent of being a child molester. It is of zero importance if opponent is or is not a child molester. All that matters is they are now on the back foot trying to defend themselves from the initial attack whilst you prepare to execute your next attack, thus you are always a minimum of one step ahead and are the aggressor.
Any person or organisation of stature that supports Scottish Independence and treats GERS with any legitimacy is strategically speaking being suboptimal. The use of Gers by the Unionist side is a very useful part of an exploitable strategy.
We on the Indy side are a long long ways from being optimal. If the SNP said the Gers figures where utter pish, this might be minimium EV = 0, but the upside might be considerable.
Blooming predictive text
^^^Scotland skint^^^
unionists voted thro the edinburgh tram scheme to spend the money the snp had ear marked for a9 upgrade
In my opinion, if the SNP don’t start publicly debunking these year in year out negative guesstimate GERS figures. Then we won’t change the minds of those who might vote yes to independence in the future.
What other countries deficit is based on guesstimate figures, produced by a foreign government?
GERS explained. How UK Govt North Sea mismanagement and accounting policy gives Scotland a deficit when an indy Scotland would have a healthy surplus.
http://www.businessforscotland.com/research-briefing-resource-governance-taxation-track-record-uk-government-uks-oil-gas-sector/
So, a quick roundup (good for weeds apparently) of reactions to GERS.
Mr Average has scratched his head and thrown the results on his blog. Clean up on aisle 2.
Ruth Davidson’s Tories have claimed that Scotland is better off as part of the UK because it gets to have a huge deficit, a balck hole in its finances. Um, Ruth, should you really be boasting about that?
Murdo Fraser has just noticed that the price of oil has dropped, is staggering around and claiming that he personally will fill the gap in the finances. Nice one, Murdo.
David Mundell is lagging and nobody notices the difference. Keep up at the back there David!
Kezia Dugdale is still trying to get out of Edinburgh to go to surgeries, while claiming the deficit is for the many not the few. Well gee thanks, Kezia, are you going to share my deficit too?
Anas Sarwar seems to be in a rage about rage. That’s awkward, Anas, #angermanagement
Jackie Baillie has nothing to say. Good heavens, it’s a Record!
Willie Rennie doesn’t know it’s GERS day. Keep smiling Willie.
The BBC doesn’t know whether it’s a sh*t or a heartburn. Mmm, keep taking the Rennies, and keep smiling. Smile always!
Mike d (5:30 pm) asks, “Why have over a 100.000 brit retirees chosen the Irish Republic?”
Presumably they bring their own income and capital with them and simply choose a rural English-speaking country with decent infrastructure and services and a mild climate. Spain isn’t everyone’s choice after all.
No, if their economy is booming, and if as I now read, they’ve become a progressive modern nation, I’m surprised that folk aren’t flocking there to get a piece of the action. Especially perhaps pre-Brexit, before the barriers to movement go up.
K.A.Mylchreest says:
Moreover, have you ever heard of anyone emigrating to Ireland, aside perhaps from the odd academic or much needed specialist?
I emigrated to Ireland. Due to the now PM’s handling of her brief in the home office I was unable to procure a visa for my wife. Ireland granted that visa and eight months later we have a good home, a business and a child on the way. I will become an Irish citizen at the first opportunity.
Great place to live and raise a family. I used to be happy to be Scottish, but what type of people would vote against their own independence? What type of national government denies their own citizens a vote on their constitutional future, while endlessly courting and justifying themselves to their colonizers? Like reading wings and keeping up with things, but I’m done with it. My future is here.
@ Arthetty – unfortunately it was the SNP government and I think John Swinney was the decision maker at the end of the day. But I may be wrong on that. Fergus Ewing was often involved when development decisions had to be made.
The power companies successfully argued that the west coast undersea route and undergrounding the cables onshore, were too expensive.
However, I believe that when the cables ran into England they were undergrounded on landscape conservation grounds.
Just Google Beauly Denny electricity cables for info. Here’s two links, a Scot Gov with the relevant papers and a Guardian article:
http://archive.is/fAxaw
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Infrastructure/Energy-Consents/Beauly-Denny-Index
@Capella
Sorry, not really following this, but did look up – BBC Monday, 25 July, 2005:
—————
“The proposed route of a 400,000 volt overhead transmission line, stretching 137 miles (220km), has been published by Scottish and Southern Energy.
The new £320m route follows 18 months of consultation after the original plans sparked objections.
The line will consist of about 600 pylons, some up to 213ft (65m) high, which will take power from Beauly, near Inverness, to Denny, near Falkirk.
Part of the proposed line will run through the Cairngorms National Park. ”
—————–
So the plan well predates the Scottish Government, even if final approval was during. I remember objection hoardings on the A9 from many years ago.
@ yesindyref2 – Agree the plans were proposed before the SNP minority gov. But it was them who gave the go-ahead.
However, on reading the press release and notes from the website I linked to, it says the Minister who made the decision was Jim Mather.
Also:
Under section 37 of the Electricity Act 1989, Scottish Ministers have power to consent or reject applications to install overhead power lines. Scottish Minsters have no powers to direct that sections of electricity infrastructure be undergrounded.
So it may be that they had no choice.
Excuse the rudeness, but you can stick your Federalism up yer kilt.
We have not come all this way to go into partnership with the crooks at Regime HQ at WM.
As for GERs people are slowly understanding not to trust anything coming from Brit Central.
Davie Oga (a few posts above).
I wish you every success and happiness for the future, and I’m truly sorry that Scotland has clearly failed you.
Yiu ask : “What type of national government denies their own citizens a vote on their constitutional future?”
What do you mean? The current devolved SNP government? If so, then it’s a vote they don’t dare lose, how would you like to be faced with such a decision?
@David Oga (7.16) –
Good luck to you
You don’t say how old you are but I’m guessing you’re fairly young. If I was 20 years younger I’d do likewise. That’s not a ‘confession’, just a plain honest fact.
GERS is a joke
An excellent tweet worth sharing …
” Tommy B @T_Socialist
I suppose the big question is if Wings is newsworthy enough that his arrest is reported on @BBCScotlandNews, why is none of his stories? “
… indeed!
The Rev is news worthy only because he holds the partisan media and politicians to account by exposing their transgressions with quality investigative journalism. The very thing a genuinely free media should be doing in any democracy. Yet that get’s lost in the BBC’s cacophony of IndyBaaaad, ScotlandBaaad, WingsBaaad!
Bella Caledonia? @bellacaledonia Aug 22
So somebody’s trying to sue Bella for defamation. Can anyone recommend a lawyer, or better is anyone a lawyer?
seems to be a trend ………
Numbers Schmumbers:
It matters not what any numbers, set of figures, accountancy tools or opponents to Independence say
The indisputable and absolute fact is no country who gained it’s Independence from Inglind is worse off than when they left and no country anywhere in the entire world has been on the phone to Inglind wishing to rejoin or join their Union or have anything to do with that country other than trade
And we don’t need answers on a postcard for the reasons for that do we, although I’ll submit one
They like being Independent much better
It’s why they did it
One more time, for the hard of thinking ….
Even if Labour had won all the Scottish seats that the SNP kept hold of, Corbyn would still not have enough to win power.
Simple arithmetic folks.
Corbyn is a useful-idiot agent of the British state.
I see the usual disagreements as to whether the new BBC presenter is Lab or Tory biased. Does it matter, the only statement which you can confidently make is it would be difficult, nay impossible, to spot one you believe is Scottish independence biased. It would also be fairly easy to spot the unionist biased ones, pretty much them all it looks like.
Readers who enjoyed ‘Clipped Wings’ http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9Hh also ordered the sequel ‘Debeaked Wings’ out soon. (Proceed to the basket case.)
@ everyone who mentioned a “federal” system in the UK like, for example, Germany or the USA
That wouldn’t work because of
a) the disproportionate size of the English population (85%) as someone remarked above
b) divided loyalities. Nearly half the populations in Scotland and NI want out of the Union.
c) The English have already refused regional assemblies and proposals about city states. They want England to stay united. They don’t want to pay for another layer of government. They want to decide and legislate alone on matters that involve England. They have every right to want all these things.
d) Finally, and most importantly for Scotland, federalism with its separation of powers, written constitution and so on, is alien to Westminster
This was written just after Indyref 1 – when it was clear devo maxi-max alias the Vow was never going to happen!
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/09/25/squaring-the-circle-what-no-means/
Jock Mcdonnell 8.03pm. Exactly jock. What England votes for,Scotland gets.im over 60 yrs old and i see the same sh*t being repeated. Wake up you youngsters in Scotland and don’t fall for this vote liebor sh*te. You’ll always get tory England.
capella @ 4.26
The National grid financed the undergrounding of the cables in the Lake District to the tune of £460 million.
From the Telegraph
http://archive.is/EWyqL
I don’t know if they put any money on the table when it came to the Cairngorms National Park.
GERS figures..
Another FALSE EQUIVALENCE.
A Right-wing ruse.
Capella says:
23 August, 2017 at 6:14 pm
@ Andy-B – sometimes (maybe always) the BBC only broadcasts the bits of SNP interviews it deems suitable for the public to hear.
Once was interviewed myself and the bastards broadcast only part of what I said, and out of context. They gather soundbites and take what they need to support their (pre-determined) story. Its not actually reporting.
Legerwood says:
National Grid don’t operate in Scotland. The Highland new line would be SSE’s.
And therein lies an interesting aside. Perhaps 9 times out of 10, use of the word ‘national’ in titles applies to England and Wales only.
By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
I thought this was Westminter but it turns out it was Adloph, well, there ye go.
But the BBC said Scotland was shite.
I do think Jeremy Corbyn is a useful idiot for darker forces in his party. He can talk with the experience of someone immersed in the political machine but he shows no ability to adapt or think on his feet whatsoever. He is a puppet for those around him who would capitalise on his likeability and dare I say it, naivety. Many of us have been here before and have seen SLab at work over the years. He seems either oblivious to their nasty games or, even worse, is happy to play along.
Now that McTernan has joined Momentum we will see if that particular group really is the grassroots vehicle it claimed to be or another Machiavellian agency for those who are Left when it suits them. It is all so predictable and yet again Scotland is to become the hostage of a bunch of seasoned dirty tricksters using those too young or stupid to see through them.
We can see whose dirty pawprints are all over that video about rail privatisation and he seems to have missed the 9.13 again.
@ Legerwood – no money was offered in Scotland to underground the Beauly-Denny Line. SSE was flatly opposed to undergrounding insisting it would be too expensive and their share-holders won’t pay for it.
If the “National Grid” paid for undergrounding in England then we, as tax payers, will have contributed to that.
@ Glamaig – I’m sure G A Ponsonby has uploaded many examples of “doctored” broadcasts so it doesn’t surprise me.
Some really nasty stuff from SLab supporters on Twitter just now about Ross Colquhoun/Wings. Yep, they are showing their true form again.
They seem to feel hard done by that the SNP claimed their Left credentials without trying too hard and without all the protestations of socialist purity. They just got on with doing stuff.
Nast, nasty SLab.
with regards to the pylon vs underground cable discussion
In Ireland “the Government and Eirgird state that underground cables are too expensive and difficult to install, while residents think the cost to them, their livlihoods, tourism and their homes will be equally as damaging”.
EirGrid did not consider an underwater power route
There’s also the simple fact that overground cables are subject to electricity blackouts due to bad weather in autumn and winter in N European countries.
The article below is from 2014 when there was a big national debate on the issue
In December 2016 permission was given for 299 pylons to be built but the people are still campaigning against them
http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-whats-happening-with-electricity-pylons-and-why-is-it-such-a-big-issue-1265225-Jan2014/
So in the past week we’ve had the UCAS results of those obtaining places at University always a great focus of British Nationalists attention. Then today we have the GERS figures.
Mainly I’ve heard nothing other than silence. Wonder why?
I’ll tell you why, even though the UCAS figures do not include those that attend college in Scotland for higher education but the English, Welsh and NI figures do, there is an improving picture. The numbers in Scotland are at a record high and a record high for those from the poorest background.
The GERS figures themselves are meaningless since most of the data is made up of estimates by HMRC but even without revenue from the North Sea GERS show an improving picture compared to the whole UK.
They don’t want to tell you that so shut up instead and remain silent. Scotland has lower unemployment, higher GDP per capita than all of the UK other than the blackhole sucking in most of the UK’s wealth that is London and the South East.
Propaganda is used in two ways, it’s the lies they tell you and the facts that they will not reveal. GERS is a lie and we will never have the facts until we become Independent.
I’ve read enough and know enough to say without doubt that an Independent Scotland would easily be in the top ten of that table printed in the article.
No amount of propaganda will ever change that belief. Those still active in pursuing the goal of Independence such as you that are posting on Wings have our Lords and masters a wee bit worried. Good! It means we’re doing something right.
England’s Empire lives.
It’s called The UK.
It’s now ruled by spivs.
But we’ll have our day.
The SNP wouldn’t have to play WM’s GERS game if it refused to administer WM devolution on behalf of the UK Govt – and instead stood for a real Scottish Govt and a real Scottish parliament with real authority.
@ Ben Madigan – thx for the link. Interesting article. So technically it can be done but are people willing to pay for it? I personally would pay the 3% extra to get rid of pylons.
Colin Alexander 10:12 pm
The SNP wouldn’t have to play WM’s GERS game if it refused to administer WM devolution on behalf of the UK Govt – and instead stood for a real Scottish Govt and a real Scottish parliament with real authority.
That’s what we’re campaigning for Colin..it’s called INDEPENDENCE.
I think we can take off our tin helmets, GERS was not the horror story that we were all expecting.
Derek MacKay there, getting the message out.
Magic.
Yeh I thought he did a good job there Jock.
Yes very impressed with Derek Mackay’s performance. I have to confess that I didn’t really rate him when he first started appearing in interviews but he got his points across very ably tonight.
Great performance by Derek Mackay on Scotland tonight. Took command, had answers, pursued our case, had extra comments as an aside; brilliant.
Another good Derek Bateman article on his website today.
Do I want independence because I think I will be richer, basically that’s a no from me. I want independence because I believe it is the natural condition for any nation.
I don’t wish to be one of the unionist trainspotters who view the nation based on how useless they think we are. The people of Scotland need to believe they are as good as any other nation, why shouldn’t they?
You can sense already that Labour are being lined up to fight for the Union in IndyRef2.
The Tories will be nowhere in sight again. Labour will be appealing to the lefties with policies no one will ever deliver from London, and appealing to soft YESs with constitutional changes no Unionist politician will ever actually agree to.
Sadly, it could be a battle over who wins the gullible vote!
@ capella – as far as I understand it – and I have spoken with an irish geologist on the irish question a couple of years ago – technically underground cables are feasible but cost more.
That’s the only drawback for the electricity companies that have to invest in producing a better electricity supply for people and industry.
Underground cables guarantee a more secure electricity supply in northern winters and carry fewer health risks to people and farm animals.
They don’t spoil views and so don’t impact on local tourism.
K.A.Mylchreest says:
23 August, 2017 at 7:49 pm
Davie Oga (a few posts above).
I wish you every success and happiness for the future, and I’m truly sorry that Scotland has clearly failed you.
Cheers. Scotland never failed me by the way. Politicians and systems of government-different matter.
Keep on truckin wingers. Miracles happen. Think you’ll need one to gain the prize!
Looking for a quick/simple answers,
why is Norway $130 billion in debt but has a $1 trillion oil fund,
is Scotland the only country that gives a f#ck about fiscal debt or deficit,
a Central Bank can print as much money as they want,so why go into debt, why not print more money,
and lastly (more chance of an answer) what`s wrong with Scottish football.
Capella says:
23 August, 2017 at 9:40 pm
@ Legerwood – no money was offered in Scotland to underground the Beauly-Denny Line. SSE was flatly opposed to undergrounding insisting it would be too expensive and their share-holders won’t pay for it.
If the “National Grid” paid for undergrounding in England then we, as tax payers, will have contributed to that.
…………….
It was only part of the line through the Lake District that was undergrounded. From the Telegraph article that I linked to in my post above it was about 15 miles although there is also mention of a tunnel being built in another section of the power line route. The first I heard about this scheme in the Lake District was in the RHS magazine, ‘The Garden’of all places.
As I understand it part of the Beauly to Denny line was undergrounded from Aviemore to Kingussie.
Redundant electricity towers being removed from Cairngorms – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-39732781
The National grid owns and operates the grid in England and Wales but just operates the grid in Scotland. Ownership in Scotland is split between two companies.
No doubt as taxpayers we contributed to the cost of the undergrounding in the Lake District.
Re 400Kv lines,it is of interest that underground is 24 times more expensive than overhead!New developments in subsea cables may be cheaper than underground.
For readers who thought ‘Clipped Wings’ too feeble to be effective, here is the sequel presented in full 3-D:
‘Debeaked Wings’
Warning!
Reading this polemic might make you ‘a person of interest’: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-jpC
@Scot Finlayson
Quite simple really regarding Norway’s debt. If you can borrow $130 billion at 2% interest say then why not keep the same $130 billion invested earning say 4%? Their fund seems to be doing pretty good, so good in fact that the yearly income exceeds all of their revenues from oil. Think about that.
They could pay it if they wanted to but choose not too because a pound in your pocket…
Scott finlayson quick answer re Norway, figures off top of head and will probably be out but if I remember correctly Norway is borrowing at about 2.75% and earning around 7% on its oil fund.
Great performance by Derek Mackay on Scotland tonight. Took command, had answers, pursued our case, had extra comments as an aside; brilliant.
Thanks for the heads up. Will watch the repeat.
@osakisushi says: 23 August, 2017 at 4:33 pm:
” … And then… a few minutes later, realise you just made a serious point worth considering.”
Oh! I’m deadly serious, osakisushi.
Historically and legally The United Kingdom, as it’s name indicates, is very much legally still a Kingdom.
Only but for the killing of The Red Comyn by Robert Bruce and the subsequent excommunication of Bruce by the Holy Roman Se, (at the urging of the monarch of England). The Scottish Legal system of today would not have been adopted in 1320.
Previously Scots law was almost identical to the rest of Christendom. That is the law, based upon Christian religious belief. It held that God selected monarchs as his earthly representatives, by selecting from which womb a child was born.
Sovereignty is/was legally believed to be a God Given right to rule. You will note that the oath to the Monarchy when MPs are sworn in is done in the name of God but the Scots members do not swear by God they, “Affirm”, their allegiance to the crown but bear in mind that the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England sat and formally ended itself on the last day of April 1707 and what sat on 1st May 1707 WAS NOT THE PARLIAMENT OF The KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.
Which beggars the question – How come it now operates under EVEL?
This is the whole idea of Sovereignty. A God given right to rule and as the sovereign monarch owned the kingdom and all the monarch’s subjects they had the power of life or death over the monarch’s subject.
The English Monarch had influence with the pope and had been asked by the monarchless kingdom of Scotland to help decide who should inherit the crown. He chose John Balliol who he could manipulate and, by the, “Ragman Rolls”, had the Scots nobles swear fealty to himself – even the Bruce himself signed that document before Scotland rid themselves of Balliol.
Which was what the clash between the Comyns and the Bruces was all about. However, the English Monarch had become too big for his boots and Pome was, and still is, against divorce but the English monarch was executing his wives and then appointed himself the head of the church of England and thus began divorcing his wives instead of executing them and thus fell out of favour with the Church in Rome.
So when the Scots sent the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath declaring that Scotland was an independent Kingdom they had to give good reason for the Pope to accept their sovereignty but the fly in the ointment was that Bruce, and hence everything he would have owned as sovereign monarch, (including his subjects), were excommunicated so the Scots cunning plan was to prove that under Scots law the Monarch was NOT sovereign as the people were sovereign under Scots law. The monarch is defender of the people’s sovereignty, and the people thus have the right to sack a monarch who they judge to be incompetent at defending their sovereignty. That is still Scottish Law.
Meanwhile, in the Kingdom of England that, by, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, had annexed the Princedom of Wales in 1284 and the Pope who had made The English Monarch, “Lord of Ireland”, who then had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the Irish Crown on the Head of the English Monarch in 1542. So the Kingdom of England was composed of three countries.
However, in 1688, the Parliament of England rebelled against the Monarch they had shared with Scotland since 1603 and they deposed him and imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary, (of Orange), but made them legally delegate their royal sovereignty to the Parliament of England.
But here’s the thing. In 1603 there was no actual Union of the Crowns and both Kingdoms remained independent. Thus in 1688, “The Glorious Revolution”, was strictly an English Kingdom event. Which is why England forced the Treaty of Union upon Scotland in 1707.
What that Glorious Revolution did, though, was kick off what the English still call the Jacobite Rebellion but it could not be a rebellion because you can only rebel against your own sovereign and, in 1688 Scotland was still independent. It was thus a Jacobite uprising in defence of the direct Stewart royal line.
So there’s the facts. There is absolutely no doubt that the United Kingdom only has two equally sovereign partners and that the Treaty itself states that the Scottish & English legal systems are incompatible and will remain, in perpetuity, independent.
As there are only two partner kingdoms when one leaves the union has ended and returns to being two independent kingdoms.
It will be entirely up to Wales, Northern Ireland and England to sort out how things will be run. However, legally be the Statute of Rhuddlan and The Crown of Ireland Act both Wales & N.I. are legally parts of the Kingdom of England. It is, though, no business of an independent Scotland how they sort it out among themselves.
@osakisushi says: 23 August, 2017 at 4:33 pm:
” … And then… a few minutes later, realise you just made a serious point worth considering.”
Oh! I’m deadly serious, osakisushi.
Historically and legally The United Kingdom, as it’s name indicates, is very much legally still a Kingdom.
Only but for the killing of The Red Comyn by Robert Bruce and the subsequent excommunication of Bruce by the Holy Roman Se, (at the urging of the monarch of England). The Scottish Legal system of today would not have been adopted in 1320.
Previously Scots law was almost identical to the rest of Christendom. That is the law, based upon Christian religious belief. It held that God selected monarchs as his earthly representatives, by selecting from which womb a child was born.
Sovereignty is/was legally believed to be a God Given right to rule. You will note that the oath to the Monarchy when MPs are sworn in is done in the name of God but the Scots members do not swear by God they, “Affirm”, their allegiance to the crown but bear in mind that the Westminster Parliament of the Kingdom of England sat and formally ended itself on the last day of April 1707 and what sat on 1st May 1707 WAS NOT THE PARLIAMENT OF The KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.
Which beggars the question – How come it now operates under EVEL?
This is the whole idea of Sovereignty. A God given right to rule and as the sovereign monarch owned the kingdom and all the monarch’s subjects they had the power of life or death over the monarch’s subject.
The English Monarch had influence with the pope and had been asked by the monarchless kingdom of Scotland to help decide who should inherit the crown. He chose John Balliol who he could manipulate and, by the, “Ragman Rolls”, had the Scots nobles swear fealty to himself – even the Bruce himself signed that document before Scotland rid themselves of Balliol.
Which was what the clash between the Comyns and the Bruces was all about. However, the English Monarch had become too big for his boots and Pome was, and still is, against divorce but the English monarch was executing his wives and then appointed himself the head of the church of England and thus began divorcing his wives instead of executing them and thus fell out of favour with the Church in Rome.
So when the Scots sent the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath declaring that Scotland was an independent Kingdom they had to give good reason for the Pope to accept their sovereignty but the fly in the ointment was that Bruce, and hence everything he would have owned as sovereign monarch, (including his subjects), were excommunicated so the Scots cunning plan was to prove that under Scots law the Monarch was NOT sovereign as the people were sovereign under Scots law. The monarch is defender of the people’s sovereignty, and the people thus have the right to sack a monarch who they judge to be incompetent at defending their sovereignty. That is still Scottish Law.
Meanwhile, in the Kingdom of England that, by, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, had annexed the Princedom of Wales in 1284 and the Pope who had made The English Monarch, “Lord of Ireland”, who then had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the Irish Crown on the Head of the English Monarch in 1542. So the Kingdom of England was composed of three countries.
However, in 1688, the Parliament of England rebelled against the Monarch they had shared with Scotland since 1603 and they deposed him and imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary, (of Orange), but made them legally delegate their royal sovereignty to the Parliament of England.
But here’s the thing. In 1603 there was no actual Union of the Crowns and both Kingdoms remained independent. Thus in 1688, “The Glorious Revolution”, was strictly an English Kingdom event. Which is why England forced the Treaty of Union upon Scotland in 1707.
What that Glorious Revolution did, though, was kick off what the English still call the Jacobite Rebellion but it could not be a rebellion because you can only rebel against your own sovereign and, in 1688 Scotland was still independent. It was thus a Jacobite uprising in defence of the direct Stewart royal line.
So there’s the facts. There is absolutely no doubt that the United Kingdom only has two equally sovereign partners and that the Treaty itself states that the Scottish & English legal systems are incompatible and will remain, in perpetuity, independent.
As there are only two partner kingdoms when one leaves the union has ended and returns to being two independent kingdoms.
It will be entirely up to Wales, Northern Ireland and England to sort out how things will be run. However, legally be the Statute of Rhuddlan and The Crown of Ireland Act both Wales & N.I. are legally parts of the Kingdom of England. It is, though, no business of an independent Scotland how they sort it out among themselves.
If there are grammatical or spelling errors in the above. I’m sorry but I’m dead beat and cannot keep awake to proof read it. Good Night, or rather, Good menrning.
Just catchin’ up once again, and some good comments earlier re “federalism” in particular. It’s a concept as dead as the dodo, since the English Establishment isn’t merely uninterested, it is actively hostile to any loss of control.
As MacWhirter himself has made very clear. (It just remains for him to follow-through on the logic of his own conclusion.) Bateman, I think, was just trying to be conciliatory.
As for Momentum, it is beginning to reveal its true colours now. As reactionary-isolationist as its mirror image on the right.
Historically, left-wing movements across Europe used to proudly name their buildings, newspapers etc. “progress”, reflecting their hopes for a better, fairer future. If Momentum had an HQ or house journal, they would likely call it “regress” instead.
I’ve been having so much fun since the GERS figures came out, it must surely be time for the sackcloth and ashes.
Nah. It’s just too much fun 😎
@RJS
The problem with Momentum is that it gathers speed while going downhill rapidly, then it’s an uphill struggle after that as it runs out of steam.
And metaphors.
@Robert J. Sutherland
When it comes to the issue of Independence there should be no left or right, no political parties, no ideology. All are pointless.
That is until we gain Independence and we can have a big bun fight about how our country should be run. May the best man or woman win.
Robert J Sutherland,
I just saw the Momentum video on Twitter.
I am shocked that it was broadcast.
Did Jeremy Corbyn’s supporters actualy think that was ok?!
The stereotyping and ridiculing of the Dutch and one of their companies being involved with Scotrail offended me.
And I appologise to the people of Holland for the crassness of these idiots who do not speak for Scotland.
Alex Clark @ 01:24,
Well said. We need to constantly remind people, it seems, that London-based “solutions” are never, ever, going to provide the answer to our future wellbeing, no matter whatever seductive forms they may take.
As for post-indy (if I dare think about it for just an instant), I expect there will be two phases.
The first will, I think, need to be a coming together of all interests, including the losers, to decide on a robust framework for the future. Not least a decent written constitution that will stand the test of time. The second phase will be to decide, as you suggest, the immediate political direction of the country.
Both will be truly exhilarating. It will be a superb time to be around!
It’s the realisation of the loss of that enormous potential which hit so many ordinary people hard in the immediate aftermath of indyref1. We need to remind everyone of that deep loss, so we never succumb to the temptation to fill that void with something ersatz that can never satisfy.
Ghillie @ 01:40,
Just par for the Great BritNat Empire, alas. Know-nothings sneering at little countries merely because they’re small. You hear it in the media all the time, often on panel shows in pseudo-joky form.
But this one was an obvious attempt to ride the populist xenophobic tiger. Can’t say I wish them well with that.
OT/
Tommy Shepherd to give the 3rd annual Thomas Muir Lecture.
At St Mary’s Cathederal, Palmerston Place, Edinburgh.
Thursday evening, 24th August, 7.00 for 7.30 pm, wine reception afterwards =)
Tickets £5, available at the door or from Tommy’s website.
Thomas Muir was a Scottish radical in the 18th century, imprisoned and transported to Australia for his beliefs. Another amazing part of Scottish history that was not broadly taught. (What a surprise!)
AND Murray Armstrong who wrote ‘The Liberty Tree: The Stirring Story of Thomas Muir and Scotland’s First Fight for Democracy’ will be there for a booksigning.
Thomas Muir actualy managed to escape from the penal colonies and the story continues with the incredible tales of his efforts to return to Scotland by sea and land. This is a life story we should have been told and would make a brilliant film!!
The annual lecture is held on the date of Muir’s birthday and is committed to the ideals of democracy, liberty and human rights.
Tommy Shepherd promises that it won’t be a history lecture but will focus on what we do next = )
I’m really looking forward to it! Hope some of you can make it too 🙂
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/thomas-muir-lecture-2017-tickets-36039265413
I know federalism is dead, and confederalism is never going to get passed the issue of an English parliament. But that isn’t the point.
But there are NO voters milling around in Scotland with the capacity to sink Scotland’s Independence, but who might think a conferated UK, – that is a Union between a distinctly sovereign Scotland and a distinctly sovereign England, is a workable compromise between Independence and Unionism, which brings them in the Realm of potentially voting YES, rather than simply resigning themselves to voting No.
Federalism is dead in the water because it is DevoMax, sub-sovereign and doesn’t provide any protection for Scotland. We all understand that..
Confederalism is different proposition altogether. It isn’t the status quo, and Westminster government would be turned on its head, because Scotland’s sovereignty would be ring fenced, made safe and kept distinct. That is a totally different framework for government. No more devolved parliament, but a fully sovereign Scottish parliament. That is an an important distinction on both levels. Confederacy is not DevoMax, but if it helps people to see it in such terms, let us call it “IndyMin”.
But IndyMin is Sovereign Independence inside a transitional confederal status, not unlike a transitional currency union, or transitional holding pen status for the EU. It COULD make sense. But the critical difference is that it puts Scotland in sole control of its sovereignty. Whatever happens beyond that is down to ourselves. If the confederal UK doesn’t stack up, then we simply exit the agreement when it suits us.
The central point of advocating for a confederal transition is not have a confederal UK, but getting Scotland over the threshold of sovereign independence; currently one small step for Yessers, but a giant leap for Unionists.
@ Mr Peffers
Thought Roger Kirkpatrick killed Comyn, “I`ll mak sikker”.
I ran out of battery…
I meant to finish by saying the Unionist’s and DevoMax was all hype, but still managed to seduce enough undecideds to carry the day for a NO vote in 2014.
Maybe this time around, a credible argument for IndyMin might seduce them back again and carry the day for us.
Please be clear, I myself am sure footed and confident in Independence, and do not feel the need for a confederal UK, but nevertheless, I can recognise that for some people who are less confident and genuinely vexed about losing the UK they grew up in, perhaps a confederal UK arrangement, even if it proves to be a token gesture, could still be a legitimate incremental step on their journey into the light.
Let me stress for the trigger happy amongst us – I mean CONfederal, not federal. We do not concede an inch from full Scottish sovereignty.
@Ghillie,
The last thing Thomas Muir wrote/said 218 years ago,
“We have achieved a great duty in these critical times. After the destruction of so many years, we have been the first to revive the spirit of our country and give it a National Existence”.
https://tinyurl.com/ybrl2n9z
seems the unionist establishment managed to silence him through infiltration and complicit judiciary,
still fricken happening.
@ Ghillie
Muir was some man.
But something that made me laugh while reading Don Herzog’s ‘Poisoning the Minds of the Lower Orders’, was that the charge of sedition Muir was convicted of was because “he’d exhorted such ignominious locals as his hairdresser to purchase and read the ‘Rights of Man’.”
He made some truly spiteful enemies.
Links
https://www.snp.org/scotland_s_economy_in_five_charts
http://indyref2.scot/bbc-scotland-protecting-ruth-a-continuing-story
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/oh-the-irony/
Good news
http://archive.is/Lhtmm
https://leyaterra.wordpress.com/2017/08/23/corbyns-offer-to-scotland/amp/
Disabled mum harangued by Labour council leader
http://archive.is/64Cwz
https://opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/new-scottish-tory-mp-slammed-for-anti-gypsy-attack
Aberdeen City Council votes to have co-leaders
https://archive.is/qwAbl
http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/little-comfort-in-davis-muddled-brexit-papers-1-5160020
http://evolvepolitics.com/supermarket-just-removed-foreign-goods-prove-ridiculous-racists/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-23/u-k-economy-may-be-even-weaker-than-it-looks-says-ubs-model
http://irishpost.co.uk/britain-wants-advantages-not-responsibility-eu-varadkar-criticises-puzzling-brexit-plan/
Nana, just loved the Newsquest news – so well deserved and what they have been working towards since the independence referendum!
I do hope their shareholders are delighted!
Tuned into radio pravda driving to work.. James Kelly wtf! “The real issue is”, what a plum.. To think people like him used to be in charge…
wee bud @ 7.47 As you say, James Kelly. Oh dear, oh dear. What a demonstration of Slab sharp-wittedness.
The real issue is…
https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/14814/who-needs-100-oil-majors-seen-making-more-cash-at-50-goldman-says/
“Who Needs $100 oil? Majors Seen Making More Cash at $50, Goldman Says”
The real issue is…
http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/14814/who-needs-100-oil-majors-seen-making-more-cash-at-50-goldman-says/
“Who Needs $100 oil? Majors Seen Making More Cash at $50, Goldman Says”
I have seen reference on here of referring to the Nederlands or Netherlands as Holland, which is one region of the country.
This is the same as referring to the UK as England.
Many thanks Nana. 🙂
@yesindyref2 says: 23 August, 2017 at 4:47 pm:
“But allowing the rUK to call itself the cUK (Continuing UK), and keeping the name UK, will be a huge negotiating asset in the coffers of the Scottish Indy negotiating team.
Can you imagine the rUK having to go to the Yanks and say “umm, err, we’re now called Ewuki” (or Ewni)?”
Well no, yesindyref2, they will be what they actually are operating as just now:-
The KINGDOM OF ENGLAND, that has as its legal Head of State, Her Majesty the Queen of England.
It is factually at the moment, “Her Majesty’s Government of the United KINGDOM of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”.
You pay your Tax into, “Her Majesty’s Treasury”, with a currency printed in Her Majesty’s Royal Mint and the present United KINGDOM is protected by Her Majesty’s Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and the Soldiers of the Queen.
Her Majesty only has two Kingdoms who signed up to become Her Majesty’s United Kingdom and there isn’t a single mention of country or countries in the entire Treaty of Union nor in either the Scottish or English parliament’s Acts of Union.
The point I’m making is that since the Westminster Establishment decided for us all that Westminster had, (in the words of the Secretary of State for Scotland), ” The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”, Westminster has been run as the Westminster Parliament being the, (unelected as such), de facto Parliament of the country of England.
That parliament, (that has no one actually elected as a member), is thus devolving powers that Westminster now assumes to be the powers of the Country of England to the three other countries that are contained in the United Kingdom but the United Kingdom is a Union of only two Kingdoms and Scotland alone is the only legally equally sovereign partner Kingdom in The United Kingdom along with the entire, three country, Kingdom of England.
So when Scotland leaves the UNITED KINGDOM what remains is the KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.
The point being fudged is that a Kingdom need not be also a single country and in fact the Treaty of Union is testament to that fact.
Quite simply it is called the United Kingdom because that is exactly what it is and factually it is now not even being run as a single country but as four countries with the country of England taking control of the other three countries as English dominions even although Scotland has never been legally an Dominion of England – they are just assuming that it is without a word of legal proof that it is now the dominion of the unelected de facto parliament of the country of England.
Today’s Scottish editions of The Telegraph and Daily Express have different headlines to the English editions. The Scottish headlines tell us that based on the GERS figures we are an economic basket case.
We already know their stance on independence but it also tells us something about the Scots. In order to sell their papers here they have to use insulting headlines to entice us to buy.
Of course it may well be that the limited sales they have here are of little consequence and they are happy to run a loss leader in order to prevent independence and maintain the status quo.
Sheesh! BBC Radio Jockland massively featuring both James Kelly and Murdo Fraser on behalf of their masters at Westminster.
What a right load of absolute bullshit and lack of brains that pair of total idiots are blethering on the BEEB.
The Herald’s editorial on GERS is straight out of the hard line Unionist playbook blaming SNP for three year old projections.
Red Tory Ian Murray claims SNP are deficit deniers in Edinburgh Evening News and blames the SNP for the deficit
As Derek Mackay pointed out on GMS Indy Scot could cut £6 billion at a stroke from the notional deficit through not paying for UK National Debt and defence savings.
James Kelly labours business manager and Murdo Fraser Tory apologist for the Stirling mob agree Scotland is bust. Under the unionists it is the snp fault
After 300 years it is our fault.
Let’s save money
No nuclear weapons
Please add to freely
Reluctant Nationalist: “He made some truly spiteful enemies.”
Remind you of anyone today?
Fortunately, he inspired many supporters.
One more on Gers
https://thecommongreen.scot/2017/08/24/we-need-to-talk-about-gers-2016-17-edition/
The mismanagement of the Oil sector. Taxed at 40% since 2016. Loss £4Billion a year since 2010. (£28Billion). Losing thousands of jobs. £1Billion could be saved with minimum pricing, (£7Billion). £3Billion loss on tax evasion. Whisky companies etc make vast profits from Scottish resources and pay no taxes. £Billions lost on EU renewables Grants and investment etc because of Westminster indecision, Scotland could have had full employment. £Billions paid on debt not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy. Total £20Billion+
Scotland raises £58Billion. Gets back £50Billion. £28Billion Block Grant. £Billion capital payment, £14Billion (UK) pensions/benefit. Contributes £3.5Defence. Total £50Billion.
How much have the illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion cost Scotland.
Now Brexit costing Scotland £Billions. When Scotland voted to remain.
The Press and the unionists are telling lies again.
Aberdeen City Council unionists spent £200Million on a grotesque monstrosity no one wanted. Ruining the City Centre. Now they are having to cut £125Million. Cutting jobs and services. They sold the City off on the stock exchange. They are a disgrace. They should be held accountable. .
Footsoldier @ 8.06 am Well corrected!!
That was my mistake for not properly remembering the exact wording of the Momentum advert which stereotyped and ridiculed the Netherlands and for one of their companies having involvement with Scotrail.
So again, I appologise to the people of the Netherlands for the crassness of these idiots in Momentum who do not speak for Scotland.
A few links re the media here and in the US
Grenfell proved it: the British media are part of a disconnected elite
http://archive.is/r3ln9
https://renegadeinc.com/the-networked-fourth-estate/
About Bbc Scotland for new readers.
https://lenathehyena.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/oh-what-a-tangled-web-we-weave-when-first-we-practice-to-deceive-bbc-scotland-and-the-labour-party/
There have been a few changes since this was written but BBC Scotland remains corrupted and bad news for Scots.
Scot Finlayson @ 4.57 am and Reluctant Nationalist @ 6.34 am and Tinto Chiel @ 8.40 am
🙂
OT/ again folks, Ghillie @ 2.33 am
Tommy Sheperd will be giving the 3rd annual Thomas Muir Lecture tonight:
7.00 for 7.30pm at St. Mary’s Cathederal, Palmerston Place, Edinburgh.
I expect Tommy to be brilliant 🙂 He promises it won’t be a history lecture but looking at what we do next. ( Wine for after 🙂 )
Nana, thank you as always!
Have a lovely day folks = )
@Robert Peffers 8:17
The UK refers to the nation formed after the 1800 Act of Union between the Kingdom of Grate Britain (formed by the 1707 Act of Union). The UK does not mean Scotland and England, although the 1707 Act of Union did make them united kingdoms. So after indy England and NI could still legitimately be called the UK.
Next up for discussion on the Wright Stuff ( tv was left on that channel , ah jist switched it oan ) onnyhow they’re going to discuss Trolling
@Ghillie
I was quite shocked at that whole Momentum episode yesterday, then disgusted.
To be fair, they managed Corbyn and his media presence during the GE campaign rigidly, and most of it worked.
Then this shite when he comes to Scotland??? Insult the jocks, and the Dutch, attack SNP, and don’t ask why.
They know the media here will give them a free ride. No scrutiny, no reporting of an ad/meme, that is xenophobic and insulting.
Labour make me sick, they really do.
ronnie anderson says:
… and I’ll bet they don’t actually discuss trolling! They will almost certainly discuss bad online behaviour instead.
Bad behaviour is an annoying problem, well executed trolling is a real threat. I sense the mainstream want the general population of confuse the two. Why? Because trolling is the main online weapon of Unionists.
Someone who is ‘good’ at trolling can be polite, friendly, engaging, show empathy, pretend agreement …. then destroy the flow of discussion on a forum!
The trolling we see on WoS varies from the pathetically obvious to so subtle that it’s difficult to be sure of motive.
Labour make me sick, they really do.
Graun twerps want to hear from Scottish SLab voters and SNP too, for some reason. There’s a full name and address thing on their web site. Its quite creepy really, in that Graun virtually never covers anything about its Scotland region at all, nice hols, obits, SNP bad, Kevin Mackenna trying to be a wit etc. And yet now same tory creep show wants SLabour vote views, in writing.
First lost the Scotrail franchise but they are missed by Scotrail staff. Its interesting talking to people who work for planet toryboy’s carousel of headline news attack targets, like Scotrail, or say the endless horror that is the Scottish NHS. Abellio ended overtime for example.
Does it matter in the long run, is it just part of the decade long squeeze on UKOK pay and conditions for us all?
Yup.
Valerie says:
Aye. Sleekit, underhand, manipulative. Policies are never backed by principles, they will be chopped and changed as necessary to grab votes. Can anyone actually say what Labour stand for? Everything seems to be mibees aye, mibees no, depending on who is talking.
Why are we expending so much time and brain power about what the English should/could call their country after we get our independence?
Do I care if my neighbor calls his house “Dun Roamin” or any other name?
As long as they have a postal address so that we can send our bills to them for the energy and goods we sell them, that’s OK.
The Kingdom/Republic of Scotland or just simply “Scotland” is more important to us than what our neighbors will have to inform the UN and the rest of the world as to their new name.
Did Corbyn ( I’m dropping the respectful Mister as of now) actually have the temerity to suggest that the SNP were not working to alleviate the austerity imposed by Westminster?
BEDROOM TAX YA BAM!
Yoons are beelin. GERS was a damp quib
The Momentum Ad was so bad, Indy supporters simply didn’t believe it was genuine at first, they kept saying ‘hacked’.
Just shows how much some of us are naive enough to think Labour wouldn’t do this etc. It was soon established it was a genuine output.
Humps Yousaf asked Labour folk to distance themselves from the slur on another country. Folk had to keep tweeting the truth about the award to Abelio.
Still sickened.
Yikes ‘Humza’ that was auto correct!!!!
” Angela Merkel’s powerful chief of staff, Peter Altmaier, has warned that Brexit will be a “severe loss” for Britain and stressed that the best the UK can hope for from the negotiations with the European Union is to ”limit the negative impact” of departure. “
” Mr Altmaier warned that Britain was likely to end up as a relatively impotent rule-taker outside the EU if it wanted to enjoy the benefits of the single market. “
Who could have guessed?
http://archive.is/pmdGc (Text only)
Scotland MUST depart this Union.
The Labour party are the fall back party. The party to call on when the real rulers become so unpopular a change is needed.
Founded to ward of the Communists in the early nineteen hundreds Labour has successfully taken up the reigns several times especially in 1945 when it became aware that the service men coming back from the war would not tolerate the conditions they had left had had to be given some hope things would change.
Up popped the fall back party launching the welfare state, which the Tories would allow to run for a while anyway.
Labour in government have never repealed any acts passed by their masters, and if the Scottish people believe any proposals put forward by Labour will actually be carried out, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
Unionists at Holyrood beginning to change their tune.
‘More praise from opposition MSPs for Scottish exam results despite claims of ‘broken’ education system.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15489119.More_praise_from_opposition_MSPs_for_Scottish_exam_results_despite_claims_of____broken____education_system/
……………………………………..
We’re getting rid of Andrew Neil …. seeing the writing on the Union wall? Being replaced by Sarah Smith.
‘Andrew Neil to step down as presenter of BBC Sunday Politics show.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15490538.Andrew_Neil_to_step_down_as_presenter_of_BBC_Sunday_Politics_show/?ref=mrb&lp=4
starlaw says:
24 August, 2017 at 10:51 am
The Labour party are the fall back party.
UK unions are poodles too, lovely to work for though. Unite’s leader McCluskey’s on £200+k a year. Tasty.
If all the main union leaders are on the same pay and conditions as the management, it all works out rather well, in the UKOK zone today.
In effect, unions in the UK are merely part of the management of big corps.
@Valerie
Jings! 😳
heedtracker
Yes exactly, heads of Unions are in the pockets of the management. They are to well paid and will not risk their own positions, but will egg on their members to do what they themselves will not do. Union leaders of old were often imprisoned, what chance of that now. I was once a shop steward in the old NUEW but refused to join a union in my last place of employment.
I have just read Nicola Sturgeon’s take on GERS, in the Guardian, and I am astonished that she puts so much trust in its figures. I was expecting the Scottish government to explain that GERS is only estimates of Scotland’s share of UK deficit.
Any soft NO’s might well look at that and think Scotland would be in trouble, going it alone. We all know that an Independent Scotland would do things differently, and I believe she would thrive in the future.
I am not sure how Nicola being ‘honest’, about a dodgy estimate to make Scotland look like a basket case, helps the Independence cause.
The US is now being run by the Military…. openly!
https://eatprayvote.org/2017/08/23/the-quiet-military-coup-within-the-white-house/
With Keith Kellogg, retired Lieutenant General, serving as the Executive Secretary and Chief of Staff of the United States National Security Council.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Kellogg
Keith Kellogg who’s granny, Nelly McBride, came from Johnstone, Renfrewshire (you wont find this info online!). An exclusive to Wings over Scotland. Another rag to billionaire riches story that puts Trump’s mother’s story into the shade. Oil, Arms and political ‘manoeuvring.’
The Scots fairly get around don’t they?
starlaw says:
24 August, 2017 at 11:22 am
heedtracker
Its been very neatly done, very noisy union neutering under Thatcherite rule as we know, but then far quieter under New Labour, a neat transition from union reps being part of the actual workforce, to integral functionaries within management, of all kinds of corps and public sector employers.
Crash Gordo’s New Labour very long period as Chancellor cleverly engaged this era that sees union reps entering a completely different role and purpose, as integral parts of the management.
Ending closed shop’s also been a boon, for management. If you’re trying to force down wages, increase working hours, scrap conditions, as ofcourse almost all UK management does, (sorry wage restraint) its far better to be sitting opposite plump and jolly middle age guys from the union, earning the same as you do.
I’m alright jack union reps, removed entirely from any kind of old school pay stuff, become effective managers, rewarded thusly.
And ofcourse, its why hard core tory beeb gimps have a big swinging dude like Len McCluskey on BBC Question Time shows, for the balance.
Petra says:
Sometimes seems that the Scots with get-up-and-go, got up and went!
We now need to prove that the stay-at-homes can make something of Scotland itself.
I dream of a future booming and vibrant iScotland where the diaspora choose to return to.
His name escapes me at this time, but it was quite a few years ago now, a union official after he quit the union he was an official of.
Pointed out that most members of unions aren’t Labour party members or vote Labour.
I also believe, he said that about 95% of union officials are card carrying members of the Labour party.
So of course union officials will tow the Labour party line, after all, if they don’t behave themselves they won’t get the chance of a peerage.
” What divorce bill? Davis will IGNORE Brexit payment demands in move to infuriate Barnier
DAVID Davis will refuse to discuss the Brexit divorce bill during the next round of European Union (EU) negotiation.”
http://archive.is/HpBRA
TeamUK want to move onto discussing post Brexit trade. TeamEU want the essentials (settlement, citizen’s rights, Ireland) dealt with first. TeamUK appear to be refusing to make much progress with the essentials. TeamEU say “progress first, then trade”.
It’s enough to make you believe TeamUK aren’t actually serious about trying to exit in an organised and agreed manner.
It’s all about being “notional”
BBC Shortbread, Union Jackie yesterday telling us
“GERS reflects Scotlands Notional Deficit
But did the BBC/MSM explain what “notional” actually means?
no|tion¦al
[?n???(?)n(?)l]
ADJECTIVE
existing as or based on a suggestion, estimate, or theory; NOT EXISTING IN REALITY*:
“notional budgets for hospital and community health services”
synonyms: not practical · conceptual · abstract · pure
* = my CAPS.
Another example is:
Corbyn, I suspect he is notionally Anti Trident, Left Wing, Progressive, Internationalist and Socialist.
louis.b.argyll says:
23 August, 2017 at 10:21 pm
Colin Alexander 10:12 pm
The SNP wouldn’t have to play WM’s GERS game if it refused to administer WM devolution on behalf of the UK Govt – and instead stood for a real Scottish Govt and a real Scottish parliament with real authority.
That’s what we’re campaigning for Colin..it’s called INDEPENDENCE.
Colin Alexander replied:
Aye, so the SNP should now oppose devolution completely. It was something that was useful as an intermediary measure, but has served it’s purpose.
Now the SNP should ONLY stand for independence.
Looks like the Brexit Plan is working out nicely @galamcennalath at 11:57 am
“It’s enough to make you believe TeamUK aren’t actually serious about trying to exit in an organised and agreed manner.”
The Team UKOK Plan basically must be:
1. Turn up and brass neck it out, hoping for the best
2. When the EU (who have been transparent from the start, pre EU Ref about what Brexit would actually mean and the 4 Freedoms importance etc.)
Walk away with no deal (which is better than a bad deal, remember)
3. Blame those nasty unreasonable foreigners
4. ‘Snap’ General Election called, caused by vote of no confidence in May’s Govt as a result of the collapse of the Brexit Negotiations
5. Corbyn’s Labour win this ‘snap’ GE
With the added side plan of gaining a Unionist majority of MPs in Scotland (which they failed to do in the last ‘snap’ GE) to demonstrate the No appetite for Indy Ref 2 meme.
Nothing else makes sense now, especially as the arse is forecast to fall out of the GBP (£) around October/November 2017.
Unless they really are that stupid and believe that Bwitain is Gweat and the EU are bluffing, but surely they can’t be…..
(I don’t believe the UK Govts advisors are that stupid for one minute)
…..can they?
@ meg merrilees says at 9:46 am (last article) …. Petra see my links in the ‘older comments’ section/ last night’s page @12.38am. Maybe it’s time to ask our councils if they have prepared risk assessments to cover any unexpected events???”
http://www.autonomyscotland.org/brian-quails-anti-trident-court-speech/
http://www.rt.com/uk/400508-scotland-nuclear-weapons-accident/
Sorry Meg I nearly missed that! WHAT a letter from Brian Quail. Fantastic. Maybe we should email that letter to our Councils right across Scotland and tell them that we don’t want these monstrosities based (dumped conveniently) in Scotland. From what I can make out no Council in Scotland has carried out a risk assessment and has no plan to counter an ‘unexpected event’. Great eh! but not surprising when you know that most Councils in Scotland were being run by Unionists until very recently … may still be the case?
We should put them on the spot by forcing them to inform, by letter, their many residents of the dangers that we harbour through accident, terrorist attack or total decimation. That may make No voters and ‘sitting on the fence’ types rethink voting for Independence in future…. next year.
Just as Ruth might consider it safe to come out of hiding Douglas Ross does the Tory racist thing all over again.
Were they really so short of able candidates they had to go for these third raters?
AuldReekieJim at 11.25
There are only two points to be made about the GERS figures.
1) They represent the estimated cost of Scotland being a part of the UK, sharing UK “national” expenditure.
2) They bear no relationship to the decisions on the economic management of an independent Scotland.
There is absolutely no point in us arguing about the the figures as we do not have the mechanism to produce them differently. Disputing them merely gives oxygen to the destructive arguments and the less we do the sooner we can move on and describe how we can better manage our finances independent.
The major points we can use on a continuous basis are to point out that
a) all countries use deficits
b) deficits are not debts, they are estimates of the difference between projected expenditure against current projected revenues and these both are the result of government choices which can and do change
c) the UK national actual DEBT in £1.8 trillion which is about 1,500 times our estimated deficit.
Scotland of course does not get to choose which areas of estimated “national” expenditure we are included in (like paying billions towards the interest on the above national debt or paying billions to defence ie Trident and useless aircraft carriers, not to mention the “national” London Underground and the “national” London sewerage system and the House of Lords etc., etc.).
So the simplest responses to anybody are that these figures only represent Scotland trapped in a bust UK or, perhaps – a 300 year union seems to have made us an economic basket case – and we should just continue?
But no point in arguing about the details whatsoever.
We’d do things differently!
Ooops and meant to add that it would be great if Stu (whom I know is very busy) could do something about this, such as publish Brian Quail’s letter in full and highlight that no risk assessments have been carried out by the Councils therefore no contingency plans are on offer.
Ooops again! Brian Quail’s speech to the Court, not letter.
@ronnie anderson says: 23 August, 2017 at 1:07 pm:
” … Bateman & nobody else will convince me , we would still get shafted.”
That, Ronnie is the most profound statement I’ve read on Wings for some considerable time. Indeed it is the truth that ANY scheme that involves The Westminster Establishment in anything the World over has seen the non-Westminster partners shafted.
There isn’t a free nation in the World that has not suffered at the hands of, “Perfidious Albion”:-
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/perfidious-albion-an-introduction-to-the-secret-history-of-the-british-empire
Well worth a read.
Jockanese Wind Talker @12.01: good point about the use of “notional”. The BBC probably surmise that its Scottish audience will think it means “national”. They don’t have a very high opinion of us, I’m thinking.
Dave McEwan Hill @12.27: a most welcome reiteration of the facts.
Kezia, Invisible Ruth, Wee Willie Wonky: write this out a hundred times.
inoticed that kezia and the rest of labour (north british branch) are absent from corbyns world tour of scotland…….
Puss, seems that Kezia and Corbyn have been annoying the residents of the East end of Glasgow today at least according to STV.
Radio Scotland press preview discusses the demise of the print press again today then moves on to events in Barcelona where Anna Burnside of the Daily Record describes Aamer Anwar as a “Prominant Scottish politician”
I’m not sure human rights lawyer Mr Aanwar will be grateful for that description or not but it does give an indication as to why the print media is in decline because the “journalists” are such a bunch of Arseholes
In other news the BBC have found Colonel Ruth long enough for her to make a statement vigorously defending her racist councillors by saying they had shown they were changing their attitude whilst at the same time another one Douglas Ross would like to remove travelers should he be made PM for the day
Maybe that’s an idea why not give all the Tories shots at being in charge for a day, such fun eh
BBC Radio Scotland said today mealy mouthed,
‘The BBC can reveal – – – oilrig safety breaches’
What does this conceal? FOI request?
Jockanese Wind Talker says:
Indeed. Everything keeps coming back to that angle.
The alternatively scenario, where their sense of exceptionalism leads them to believe that playing difficult in negotiations is appropriate, doesn’t make sense – as you point out, the advisors must have more than Eton Mess between their ears.
IMO, all along because the EU has been transparent, there are three outcomes – cancel the whole fiasco, stay in the EEA and accept its rules, or crash out in a flurry of Union Flag waving.
Also all along, there has been a vocal and powerful group who favour the latter!
Perhaps the most damnable thing is while Tories argue among themselves, Corbyn’s Labour stand twiddling their thumbs waiting to be told by the Tories how it will end.
Just been to shop in East Neuk, to check out the pish on the front pages of the newspapers.
As played: They, the other side, have a larger reach. They can and do unite and create a pervasive and persuasive narratives that have little to do with the truth.
We do not compete for reach. We have less reach, as played. Too many of our main players, who have the largest reach, act as disparate elements, and are not participating in a cooperative strategy. We can’t win without an efficient, cooperative strategy.
I hope game theorists and strategists who are reading are getting their shit together. Too many typists.
Lovely display of BBC r4 vote tory in England, vote anyone but SNP campaigning on right now.
Its hard to imagine a bigger beeb gimp duality really in this one beeb r4 creepshow in Scotland.
Vote Corbyn Scotland, hate Corbyn in England.
The duality of beeb gimpery:D
PS
Beeb ligger was up in the fish market at Peterhead, Leave campaigner and local fish merchant Jimmy Buchan is thrilled at Leave win, take back the UK seas, but Mike Gove, who is wonderful and local and fish, says Dane’s will get UK fish too, “its a negotiation” says life long tory voter, Jimmy Buchan.
As per, BBC r4 gimp left out stuff like the same Jimmy Buchan is,
General Election 2010
« Back to Elections home
Key ConstituenciesAll Constituencies
Name: Jimmy Buchan
Candidate for: Banff & Buchan
Party: Conservative
Votes: 11,841
Funny that.
Text book BBC anti Scottish attack propaganda today, for future students of BBC attack propaganda.
Colin A, 12.18..Now the SNP should ONLY stand for independence?
You ask.
Stand for? No, they are in government, elected on a wide ranging manifesto.
A good governing party will maintain pragmatic control over the levers of power before them.
Trashing devolution isn’t going to help our increasingly frustrated population unless
HM Treasury still holds the purse strings and would cut-off our government accounts.
Only a democratically enabled shift towards restoration of full sovereignty will force Westminster to give us access our national wealth and assets.
@ Breeks
“…perhaps a confederal UK arrangement, even if it proves to be a token gesture, could still be a legitimate incremental step on their journey into the light.”
But who is going to agree to place a confederal UK on a ballot paper? No one. In fact, I can actually see the Brit Establishment actively campaigning on a “NO CONFED UK” just like they did with “NO CURRENCY UNION”.
We simply cannot have anything propsoed that will become a hostage to fortune, that will allow the Unionists to deny us it, like they did with the Currency Union proposal.
We play by OUR rules, not theirs. We have our OWN country back FIRST with our OWN currency. If later the rUK put forward a proposal for a confederation of British countries then AND ONLY THEN, should Scotland look at it and decide if such a setup would be in our interests.
IMO that is what SHOULD have happened in 1707 – a proper UNION of confederal, fully sovereign countries; countries working with each other for the common good but, crucially, each with a national veto. What happened, however, WASN’T a Union at all, it was a hostile takeover.
We can redeem this situation. BUT we need full indy FIRST. A binary choice and no hostages to fortune during the campaign. Then, after indy, we can see who wants to work with us.
Re
HandandShrimp
“Were they really so short of able candidates they had to go for these third raters?”
It wouldn’t matter if the candidates were 8th raters – people would still vote for them.
When you have a situation where the British State is effectively using every tool it can think of to influence and poison the public’s mind against a well meant aspiration, then it doesn’t matter how bad these Tory (or indeed other Unionist) candidates are; they will still get votes.
The British State is very powerful and has no shame in using every leverage it has to get it’s own way. It’s very easy to influence people; just get all the State organs of information to trumpet a message and the public will follow the message.
The SNP are Bad; the EU is bad; the Moon is made of blue cheese.
Confirmation Bias runs through the Scottish population like a virus. It is a sickness that is very difficult to cure. If the message is “Vote against the SNP” then a great many people will vote this way despite the clear (to the enlightened) nasty traits of the candidates against which voters apply their selection.
In my own opinion, I think the only way to swing people away from the Unionist vote is to apply identity arguments. I would tar all Unionist parties as nasty (they actually are), then by association I would tar unionist voters as “nasty”. I would also refer and label them as non-Scots. Call them English, because as far as identity is concerned, they are English, and the English Establishment would be absolutely delighted to hear this.
Quick mucking about with economic arguments and semantics about currency and broad shoulders.
You are either Scottish or English….End of!
@ Robert Peffers Thanks for the link . The brutish establisment are much deserving of the name Inglorious Empire & will ever be so in my eyes .
Nana said at 6:49 am:
Links
“…… http://indyref2.scot/bbc-scotland-protecting-ruth-a-continuing-story
Thanks for pointing the new readers to Wings over Scotland into other sources of info re Scotland.Welcome Newbies. 🙂
BBC Scotland and Ruth Davidson MSP,leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party.
The two paras. in the above link really jumped off the page when I read them:
“…….Asking for an interview is fine, but here’s the rub. When the leader of a political party continually refuses to be interviewed on issues of huge significance then it becomes a news story in its own right. But BBC Scotland is refusing to highlight Ruth Davidson’s disdain for the electorate.
There has been no effort on the part of BBC Scotland to confront Ruth Davidson. No camera crews have been despatched to the Scottish Tory HQ or to the home of the Scottish Tory leader. For those who believe the BBC should not be staking out someone’s home then I’d suggest they speak to Michelle Thomson who faced just that when being smeared by the BBC over legal property deals……..”
Interesting link Robert, some revelations but possibly the most interesting was the omission of espionage activity pre Union and afterwards against Scottish independence.
@K.A.Mylchreest says: 23 August, 2017 at 12:11 pm
“How come there are still any Catholic/Nationalists left in the North, why stay there and take all the shite they get if life is so much better in the South and citizenship is granted for the asking?”
How bloody stupid are you, K.A.Mylchreest?
The reason is because those Catholic/Nationalists in the north are, as their families before them were, Northern Irish native born and see no case to be driven from their own native country by a load of immigrant Britnats who are the result of the many Plantations of British by the Westminster Establishment.
In point of fact Ireland is a single country, and a former unified kingdom, that was partitioned by the actions of successive Perfidious Albion rulers and governments.
All Ireland is certain, eventually, going to unify and it won’t be under a Butcher’s Apron – it is simply a matter of time.
It has to be very close now as the Unionists are getting fewer and republicans are in the ascendency.
Like it or not – the United Kingdom’s days are numbered and the clock is ticking down the minutes. It may be N.I. goes first, followed by Scotland and by some way Wales will follow.
In point of historic fact much of the Welsh People are of English immigrant descent. Including all of the Princes of Wales since Owen Glendower.
Welcome new readers!
A few years ago when I embarked on researching which way to vote in Indy ref I was warned off Wings. However a link eventually led me here. I was astounded by the quality of the journalism and also the vast knowledge of the contributors. I thought I knew about history and current affairs. Clearly not enough as I must say it’s been the best education I’ve had – and I include a masters degree in that.
So thanks to Stu and the gang. Particularly Robert peffers – history and constitution do matter. The establishment are rattled – hence Andy wightman and now Wings.
We are getting there folks.
@ Giving Goose who wrote “You are either Scottish or English”
From my experience of Unionists in NI I would say a better description is “You are either Scottish or would-be English”
Because you and I and they know they will never be accepted as English.
Even arch-Unionists like the DUP are known at Westminster as “That Irish party”
@budwiser says: 23 August, 2017 at 12:25 pm
“GERS are nonsense.”
Aye! So are, “The Gers”, – but that’s just my own personal opinion.
Giving Goose,
Call them Brits surely, not many English independence supporters will take your advice.
We need to take the concept of ‘Britain’ out of England’s AND Scotland’s identity.
Reset our ancient nations to their former uniqueness. We all get what we want, except those who’s greed gets in the way of logic.
@Robert Peffers / Graf Midgehunter
It’s all about money. Basically speaking the name UK comes with assets and it comes with debts of nearly £2 trillion. Scotland’s share of the debt would be about £160 billion on a per capita basis (a lot less on a historical one).
If the rUK calls itself whatever it likes apart from the UK, let’s call it Percy, then the UK disappears forever, Percy takes £1,840 billion of debt, Scotland takes £160 billion of debt and we go our separate ways.
On the other hand if the rUK wants to call itself the UK, as the continuing UK, then it takes £2 trillion, and Scotland takes £0 billion.
Simples. It’s about the money.
Robert Peffers – various
Hi Robert,
I wish I could say I’m rarely humbled by folks on WoS but frankly, it’s not true. You exhibited stunning clarity to back up what initially could be taken as an oddity and for that, I thank you.
This happens rather a lot with quite a few WoS contributors and makes me wonder wtf we’re not already indie. Continually it seems Wesminster rides roughshod over Scottish legal niceties and ignores “the rules” whereas we, the Scots, continue to pay fair.
I remember sitting in a pub in Lochcarron about 10 years ago, in a conversation with some English & Welsh tourists.
When asked, “How do you think Scotland will survive after independence?”
I replied, “Probable chaos for up to 10 years but it doesn’t matter ‘cos it’ll be our chaos for us to sort”.
For me, it summed up my ongoing disgust at how our country is treated and a growing feeling Holyrood should just grasp the thistle and start fighting back hard.
Louis.b.argyll says:
24 August, 2017 at 1:34 pm
Colin A, 12.18..Now the SNP should ONLY stand for independence?
You ask.
Colin A is here to get everyone to STOP voting SNP. And if that wont fly, we should all just stop voting in Scotland and be happy Brits.
To be fair though, its looking Co’s on to a winner too, seeing as half a million SNP possible votes just didn’t not vote at the last pointless snap GE, mad old trout Teresa called, after swearing blind she wouldnt.
Such is 21st C political discourse in teamGB.
Beeb r4 tory vote tory lunchtime news gimps jsut there, interviewed twa very reticent SNP votes up in the north east of non country Scotland and she kept asking them, “why do you think Alex Salmond lost then?” over and over and over.
Neither SNP voters actually said out loud to the gimp…”well dear, we’re looking at the reason now, you sneaky creepy bbc tory Britnat ligger.”
Well that’s what I shouted at the radio:D
Giving Goose @ 13:40:
Sad but true fact. And oft forgot by those who grumble against whatever PR electoral system is being used within Scotland.
You just have to hope that the Brexit facts of life will soon enough visit themselves upon the likes of those daft enough to exchange Alex Salmond for a useless nonentity, and bring about a rapid awakening.
Hi stu
I hope you’ve a plan B in place to ensure wings can continue regardless of what special branch is planning
It may be off shore
Name a country that regrets being independent?
Unionist diehards, with Brexit BritState in mind would really struggle with that.
Scotland, however, is the universal exception in being perceived as uniquely unsuited to a status enjoyed by legions of states that however ‘poor’ none would willingly relinquish.
So the rail worker union TSSA, has attack the Scottish government in a video they released, because a Dutch company runs the trains in Scotland.
Labour’s Corbynite movement Momentum, forwarded the video, whilst mocking the Scottish government.
At the time of awarding the contract to Abelio, the S&G didn’t have the devolved powers, to put in a public sector bid.
Of course in reality, this just a timed attack on the S&G, to try and obscure the fact that Scotrail, has been named the best performing large train operator in the UK.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15490809.Momentum_slammed_after_sharing__bordering_on_xenophobic__anti_SNP_video/?ref=mrb&lp=2
Corbyn will spend five days traipsing around Scotland trying to drum up support for his policies which he’s nicked from the SNP, who’ve already implimented them. However Corbyn opposes the SNP.
@Petra
“My journey to YES” – Andrew Neil.
Well, you never know!
Starlaw @11.22
You are spot on about the union reps today.
Not remotely interested in the workers.
Asda warehouse grangemouth had an EX TEAM LEADER as GMB union rep, he shafted folk with clearly bad advice to make worker grievences “go away”.
I was unfairly dismissed on grounds of disability discrimination and the GMB tried to shaft me.
However, my old man was a popular union man in Scotland when i was growing up, (he is long since retired) ironically the Scottish organisor of the GMB, so i knew immediately what was going on.
I got myself a lawyer and dealt with my case without the union, hey presto, case eventually won with large damages awarded.
I was then advised to take on the union over their mishandling of a cut and dried case of discrimination, and guess what?
Case settled out of court and damages awarded.
……..
My old man dedicated his life to his union work, it cost him 2 marriages and his health over his 30 years.
He ALWAYS put workers first, management hated him, and for good reason, and workers loved him.
Union reps used to get a brand new car every year, but my old man fought to change that, after fierce resistance, it was changed to every 2 years (he wanted at least 3 years).
His argument was that it was a waste of members money.
I see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the modern day unions which prioritise the workers they claim to represent.
Corbyn is old enough to remember how guys like my old man operated in support of his members. Pity he is not interested in maintaining such standards.
Have to agree with Proud Cybernat @ 1.36 Breeks.
Westminster would need to debate and agree on a major and potentially impossible change in their own Constitution.
Like Labour are pretending that they would do, although they don’t say if it’s before or after they get rid of the lord’s like they promised!
This would have to be “politically” acceptable to the English electorate.
All to “appease” Scotland and keep the Union,a pretendy Union at that!
I suspect the ordinary English voter only supports the Union as it is,and would take some convincing to make a change.
They would be more likely to say ….on ye go..we will stay as we are thanks……
But even so there’s no point to a Union for Westminster if it’s the poor relation in it.
They have no intentions as far as I can see of actually pooling and sharing two separate set’s of wealth and power.
Espically when they don’t have the advantage.
Infact I would argue that Westminsters best chance of surviving as it’s currently set up,when the books will be opened,after our yes vote.
Is to try to hide the actual figures from it’s own electorate.
Also I believe that in the first few years after Independence their (ordinary English )people will be led to believe that their poverty is because Scotland robbed it all.
That’s also why I would never agree to a deal for Faslane and Colport, although not the main reasons!
The “Rent” that Holyrood would “force” the English tax payers to pay to keep “everyone” safe, would be the reason everyone in England is skint.
So I really can’t see.
A. Any joint arrangement as workable.
B.England being in any mood to attempt to put a new arrangement in place for TBH decade’s.
And by the time Westminster is in a position to offer such a deal.
Well… Scotland might be the new Norway ….and why would we?
Although it has to be said (sorry Alex Clark) a powerful Scotland might find herself with a government who is tempted to make a new Union with the roles reversed.
Which is why I believe that our Constitution should forbid any and all political Union’s of that nature, and Holyrood should be obligated to ratify by referendum any Treaty that affects Sovereignty every 20 year’s.
That’s things like Ttip, EU,ect,so we can never be caught again having to create a demand for a say in our own Sovereignty.
We get our say on if Treaties are still any good for us as a right.
But also to prevent us becoming a “Westminster” to the other Countries and Kingdom on these islands.
Oh and no forgetting any reunification shit…..
@AuldReekieJim
Sturgeon is the First Minister of Scotland, the head of the devolved government, and has to be seen to be acting as such.
Whatever their merits or downfalls, GERS is the only official accounts, presenting Scotland notionally as an accounting unit within the UK. Yes, it’s estimates, and GERS itself does not relfect an Indy Scotland, the SG and Sturgeon make that clear.
The Fraser of Allander is well respected, and this is their take on GERS.
https://fraserofallander.org/2017/08/23/government-expenditure-and-revenue-scotland-2016-17/
Note it says (summary): “GERS shows a net fiscal balance of -8.3% of Scottish GDP for 2016-17. This is an improvement on the figures for 2015-16 where Scotland’s fiscal balance was -9.3%.”
Also: “But – based on the latest assessments of the outlook – it will remain higher than that for the UK and settle at between 6% to 7% of Scottish GDP by 2019-20.”
That figure basically is too high for Indy, settling at 6% to 7%. It needs to drop, and to be seen to be on a downwards trend. Much as I’ve posted before, where if the current trend continues, by 2022 it would be down to less than 3% – a completely acceptable figure.
In Indy Ref 1 many of us used GERS to back up the case for Indy Scotland “An extra £4.4 billion”. We owned GERS. After the oil slump it’s from the unionists “£10 billion fiscal transfer from the UK”. The unionists owned GERS.
But the effect of both claims is that GERS has become more important to the average Joe, and its headline figures: “Deficit £X billion, deficit Y% of GDP”. Now the People own GERS.
So it’s simple. Sturgeon is recognising this and addressing it with the words many people would want to hear “We will work to reduce the deficit”.
It’s as aimple as that.
… i take a summer break because nothing is happening. I pop back to have catch up … and I find that all hell as broken loose.
Firstly, very sorry to hear of the Rev’s travails. I am sure that he is more than capable of looking after himself.
Secondly, I note that the latest accusation against me is not just that I am a paid troll (I wish) – but that I am actually a member of the Rev’s paid contribution cabal! Where should I send my invoice?
@Breeks
Excellent post on confederalism or IndyMin.
One other thing I would add: the debate then wouldn’t be the Union v Independence.
It would force Labour, LibDems and Tories to reveal their true hand, that it’s not just a UK Union that they want but, a UK Union where Scotland is ruled by Westminster politicians, instead of by the people in Scotland.
So how do you reduce the deficit? Unionists will say “raise taxes, spend less on the NHS and education”. This is not correct. It’s what the UK is doing (reducing the size of the state) with its austerity measures, but it also has control of the money supply, the macroeconomic levers. So it seems that its deficit as a percentage of GDP is dropping.
Scotland does not have the macroeconomic levers, and more than 50% of our spending is under UK control – pensions, most benefits, defence, etc. Even the block grant is not under our control. The UK Government could boost it by £2 billion, give us more money, and then GERS shows an INCREASED deficit – totally outwith our control.
BUT – we can do our best to increase GDP, because if there is a deficit of £10 billion and a GDP of £150 billion, that’s a deficit of 6.7% of GDP. But if we can raise our GDP to £200 billion, then that drops to 5% of GDP.
So the answer is growth to the economy, hence the Forth Road Crossing (worth money to the economy of Fife and beyond), improvements to the A9 (economy of the North of Scotland), etc. etc. Plus a reduction in unemployment – Westminster controls unemployment benefit.
Next year’s GERS should show a drop in deficit to around 7.3% of GDP hopefully, and perhaps then the perceived trend by the likes of Prof Graeme Roy of FoAI will be that the deficit will continue to drop.
Nicely in time for the Referendum – and Independence itself.
Yet again Labour rounding on the wrong target, they seem to be totally blind to the fact that the Tory party Should be the enemy, while they attack the SNP who have against ,Scottish Labour opposition put in place the changes and reforms that dear Jeremy has promised if he gets the chance in England, a very confused outfit, It doesn’t seem to concern them being in cahoots with the Tory party in some local councils is a bloody big contradiction, try explaining that to prospective voters.
I wonder if the BBC in Scotland will get round to asking him to explain this baffling contradiction, after all it seems dispatching a reporter and camera crew to follow the Messiah in his jock land tour is worthy of the resources allocated by our national broadcaster, so let’s have some answers .
@Effijy says: 23 August, 2017 at 12:29 pm:
“Did Ireland have 40 years worth of Oil revenue coming in?
Do you recall that their independent currency was called the Pound”
The Republic of Ireland have done exceptionally well considering that only in 1937 did their constitution renamed the state as Ireland. Then, only in 1949, did they explicitly became a republic. Thus definitively ending their rather tenuous membership of, “The British Commonwealth”.
Later, in 1973, Ireland joined the European Communities and has gone on from strength to strength ever since. As will the Kingdom of Scotland after we leave the ever, “Perfidious Albion”.
@ Indyref2
“If the rUK calls itself whatever it likes apart from the UK, let’s call it Percy, then the UK disappears forever, Percy takes £1,840 billion of debt, Scotland takes £160 billion of debt and we go our separate ways.
On the other hand if the rUK wants to call itself the UK, as the continuing UK, then it takes £2 trillion, and Scotland takes £0 billion.”
————
The UK of… etc, etc is the owner of the debt as was acknowledged by Osborn(?) in the run-up to the Ref-14 so that that the international money markets could be soothed and not panic. Should Indy occur, London would still guarantee for the debt in the future.
If the continuing(?) former UK entity, after Indy, wants to call itself Percy ( 🙂 ) it is still the owner of the debt.
The London £1,840 billion of debt, Scotland £160 billion is a matter for negotiation which a very nice Scotland would possibly take over to smooth a working partnership with a Percy in Brexit difficulties.
Percy is a lovely name for England… 🙂
@ geeo
On Scotland gaining its Independence with a SNP Gov in the majority the british unions will cause as much disruptions & will come to the fore as the next obstacle’s we need to on & defeat Scottish Workers british unions .
Those that have a job at present better think hard Do we return to the days of the Union barons calling for strike action all the while they sit back & collect their wages & the Workers suffer loss ( its always been thus ) .
Good to see that EU is running out of patience with England.
@Graf Midgehunter
If for the sake of argument, Scotland took £70 billion of debt (updated to present day from an SNP estimate of historical debt). There are two ways of handling this.
1. is that Scotland borrows £70 billion on the international market (or by issuing bonds in a “new” country), and repays London in full. That could be expensive.
2. Scotland actually repays London, managing the £70 billion debt that way. Currently that’s cheap, but with Brexit, who knows?
Osborne had to guarantee the debt to keep the markets happy, the problem for the rUK is that they then might be reluctant to have a portion of that debt – £70 billion – reassigned to Scotland. So it made 2 more likely, a case of the pre-negotation that Osborne did limiting the rUK’s options. They really aren’t good at negotiation, as Brexit is showing.
Scotland is going to need better negotiators, and certainly better than the ones that gave us the Treaty and Act of Union with England.
I don’t see how a confederal UK could possibly work.
Nothing would change, Westminster would still be in
charge of the purse strings.
Also we saw during the 2015 general election how the
Tories and the electorate in England were opposed to
SNP MPs propping up a Labour Government in a progressive alliance and making decisions on English affairs.
What was it Theresa May said at the time? it would be the biggest constitutional crisis since the abdication.
Does anyone really seriously imagine for one single moment that Corbyn would support a confederation, when he already made it clear during the 2017 general election, he would not accept the support of SNP MPs as part of a progressive alliance that was offered to him.
Giving goose
Why don’t we just call them British Nationalist.. A lot of them like the word unionist and use Nationalist in a derogatory way..
To hear The First Minister call them out as British Nationalist parties has a nice ring to it.. The tories are halfway there!!
I’m sure the old BNP won’t mind being associated with their right wing colleagues..
Sorry if posted twice but I work in the wilderness..
The notion of ‘confederalism’ is such an existential let alone political non-starter that it should be dismissed by anyone calling themselves nationalist. England is psychologically incapable of playing ‘the equal’ in political relationships. Ask any other European. This is essentially an old man’s pipe dream. The dream of those who have some sentimental attachment to the old order and its peculiarities. As nationalists we need to be clear about what we want, an end to external ie British interference in our country. Softening the line will be seen as weakness and indeciveness. Remember the brouhaha over retaining sterling. That was regarded by many as a partial capitulation to the old system. The subsequent ‘confusion’ may well have contributed to the failed 2014 referendum.
Before I get stuck into work, here’s one last thing.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=17651
This is what was happening in August 2014 just a month before the Indy ref, and Unionists were making much of US shale oil and the drop in the price of oil, with some justification. It in itself was used to pour some doubt on the oil price projections in the White Paper, and hence the viability of Independence. That may hve had some effect on 18th September. FUD – Fear Uncertainty Doubt.
But there are two things in this for the Unionists who claim Sturgeon and Salmond lied in the White Paper, to suck up.
1. This is an industry projection of pricing AFTER the White Paper of November 2013, and it put the price of oil, US oil (Brent is a few dollars higher), at $105/bbl in 2015 – that’s its projection for a year ahead, and TWO years after the White Paper. So it confirms that at least the mid and lower projections in the White Paper were reasonable, and even that the higher projection was plausible – look at the graph for 2013 and 2012.
2. It, too, did not anticipate the massive drop in oil prices to $50, $40 and less.
So suck it up, Unionist agitators. You crashed and burnt on GERS, now crash and burn on oil.
@ Indyref2
“Scotland is going to need better negotiators, and certainly better than the ones that gave us the Treaty and Act of Union with England.”
—————–
I agree with you in puncto negotiations and what’s more we’ed be doing it as a free Nation to decide our own way.
We now have some of the best and most Scotland dedicated leadership in Europe and they won’t make the same mistakes as in 1707. (Spit).
We’ve given three centuries for the union with England to work for Scotland. It hasn’t worked. Further devolution will not work. More Westminster promises [!] will not work. Federalism will not work. The union with England must end – and soon.
@Nana
If you want to use that link, be my guest! People are more likely to follow your links than mine 🙂
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=17651
And if anyone wants to use any of my stuff for their own article, also be my guest – as long as it’s used FOR Independence there’s no “copyright”. I don’t think oil price fits in with my own blog.
wee bud
Great point. Tarred as a British Nationalist – with all the nasty BNP baggage that goes with that.
Winner! There should be a concerted effort by all who enage in debate to use the term British Nationalist.
It has unwholesome connotations.
But I also like Ben Madigan’s “You are either Scottish or would-be English”
Push identity to the fore and don’t be shy about it.
That myth of a saying that was intentionally made-up years ago:
(ahhhhh ha ha ha and some scaredy’s still choose to believe it too.)
Two of the above have been PROVEN incorrect, same as it ever was.
Thereafter which, we can lead you to the loch, undecided iScotland voters… but it’s your choice if ye decide to dip yer toe in and take to the water, Scotland’s water.
Two out of three aint bad, three out of three is bestest 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s
Listen to Meat, he’s talking to you.
Factor yerself in.
Love yah.
O/T
Slimeball geezer in Stornoway talking mince better PAY for his Harris Tweed jacket if he wants wan. A nice yellow wan wae a SNP tab on it should do him fine!
Ronnie Anderson @ 3.00
Totally agree there Ronnie.
Westminster won’t be trying to to negotiate an amicable split when we’re leaving.
It will be same old same old…..If we can’t rule it we will do our best to wreck it Westminster….
I sometimes wonder if fear of them doing exactly that, caused some who would like Scotland to be independent to vote no in the first referendum,and not fear of being personally worse off at all.
And I don’t even think it’s the establishments racism,they are just programmed to try to destroy the competition.
This is why I think it’s important to be leaving soon.
Now they know Indy is actually going to happen.
The less time they have to plot the better.
@ Dan Huil: “We’ve given three centuries for the union with England to work for Scotland. It hasn’t worked.”
I know what you mean but I’m pro-indy. It has worked for Scotland to some extent, and unionists won’t tire of pointing that out. I don’t think the “undecided” will wear that as it goes too far.
But it hasn’t worked anywhere near as well as it should do if the UK Government was to represent all its parts fairly, instead of Londond and the South-east (I think the East of England is its own story – see for instance the Cambrige business park) and in that respect perhaps the points that can be made over the coming months, is that it hasn’t worked for Wales, Northern Ireland, the North-East and North-West of England, either. Even that Fraser of Allander article about GERS comments on the figures in its chart of the deficits of the “regions”.
https://fraserofallander.org/2017/08/23/government-expenditure-and-revenue-scotland-2016-17/
Sorry for length of this post in advance:
How about a better wee answer (call it an update) of your answer to the conversation of 10 years ago @agoosakisushi says at 1:59 pm
I think it is high time all of us answer the question:
“How do you think Scotland will survive after independence?”
With the question:
“How do you think England, Wales and NI will survive after Scotland gains her independence?”
Use the HMRCs own Regional Trade Statistics Latest Release:
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx
It’s got HMs Crown and awthing on it so the BritNats shouldn’t be too upset when you show them Scotland’s the only part of the UK with a trade surplus (£2 Billion although it is probably a lot more than that).
Now I’m no macro-economist but:
“When just focusing on trade effects, a trade surplus means there is HIGH DEMAND FOR A COUNTRY’S GOODS* in the global market, which pushes the price higher and leads to a direct STENGTHENING OF THE DOMESTIC CURRENCY*. Countries with a trade surplus often continue to increase their exports over their imports as goods and services become more highly relied upon internationally.
*My CAPS.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trade-surplus.asp
Also:
Feel free to mention the infamous McCrone Report (after all it is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government), so again the BritNats should have no problem with the authenticity of the evidence presented:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report
“An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be “EMBARRASSING*”.”
“Scotland’s currency “WOULD BECOME THE HARDEST IN EUROPE, WITH THE EXCEPTION PERHAPS OF THE NORWEGIAN KRONOR*.” From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. SCOTLAND WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO LEND HEAVILY TO ENGLAND*S and “this situation could last for a VERY LONG TIME* into the future.””
*My CAPS (again),
But note the use of ‘perhaps’ in relation to the exception of the NOK (Norwegian Kroner) as being stronger than an Indy Scots Currency in the ’70s.
Mention of Norway should always include mention of their Oil Fund vs The UKs Deficit run up by Westminster Unionist Govts of (Red, Blue and Yellow hues of Tory).
“The Government Pension Fund Global (Norwegian: Statens pensjonsfond Utland, SPU). The fund changed names in January 2006 from its previous name, The Petroleum Fund of Norway. The fund is commonly referred to as The Oil Fund”
As of June 2017 its total value is NOK 8.09 Trillion (USD 958 Billion) or £748 Billion GBP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
Versus
UK National Debt of: £17.2 Trillion.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicspending/bulletins/ukgovernmentdebtanddeficitforeurostatmaast/jantomar2017
Note that “General government gross debt was £1,720.1 billion at the end of the financial year ending March 2017, equivalent to 88.0% of gross domestic product (GDP)”, UK Gov Office for National Statistics so again the BritNats should have no problem with the reference source.
And if you want to add a wee touch of devilment in for good measure (and god knows I do), point out that you haven’t even mentioned the Isolationist Brexit Policies Westminster are going to cripple them with and it’s resultant hyperinflation (Weimar Republic Styli) once iScotlands tax receipts for Oil, Gas, Renewables, Whisky, Salmon, etc. are taken away from No. 11 Downing Street.
“The new Weimar Republic was now saddled with a massive war debt that it could not afford. That was made even worse by the fact that it was printing money without the economic resources to back it up.”
The Kaisers Quantitative Easing, basically (but BBC/MSM never point out this parallel).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
😉
Likey…
Excellent point!
Yer either a British Nationalist or you’re Scottish.
“What is good for the goose is good for the gander” 😉 x
@ yesindyref2 – The Union is between Scotland and England. Nothing to do with “regions”, as Mr Peffers will be along shortly to explain.
Sorry for the flurry of posts, strike while the iron is hot!
https://www.ippr.org/north
This is another resource we need to keep an eye on, as I did during Indy Ref 1. Nice to see ED back btl on The National, by the way. Grun CiFfers might know who I’m talking about. Whatever its political origins IPPR North has the North of England at its heart, and since they’re actually more screwed over than Scotland is, it’s been biting them.
They are natural allies, working together rather than always competing.
Since, nationalism is demonised by those who oppose the SNP. We should be constanly referring to those who support the union as British nationalists, for that is what they are.
Although their nationalism is not a forward thinking and progressive form of nationalism.
Still no sign of Colonel Davidson, she’s keeping head well below the parapet.
@Capella
Yes, but the UK (the UK is the result of the Union) isn’t working even for the regions in England.
@ScottieDog says: 23 August, 2017 at 3:17 pm:
“Which country is more sovereign”.
Woops! ScottieDog, sovereignty is not quantitative in any way.
Sovereignty is an absolute. You either are or are not sovereign.
Which is exactly the whole point of Scottish legal sovereignty in the proverbial nutshell.
On 1st May 1707 a Kingdom called, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, was born by means of only two, equally sovereign, independent kingdoms agreeing to unite in an equal partnership union but the Treaty that begat that union laid down, “The Articles of Union”, which were thus legally binding upon each equally sovereign kingdom partner.
There were several bones of contention in the negotiations to that union and these contentious issues are catered for in Each partner Kingdom’s independent, “Act of Union”, that each partner kingdom passed.
One such was the unfortunate disgraceful sectarian agreement that Roman Catholics were debarred from anything to do with the royal family who are still legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England but who, under the Rule of Law of the Kingdom of Scotland are NOT sovereign.
Thus Article of Union Number 19 agrees that the two kingdom’s legal systems will remain sacrosanct in perpetuity because the two rules of law are incompatible.
The same incompatibility exists between the two kingdom’s education system and that too must remain sacrosanct. So also with the incompatibility of the English Kingdoms monarchy being Head of the English Church but is specifically debarred from heading any church in Scotland.
Yet these and many other parts of the treaty of union have been broken by Westminster who now claim to be sovereign over Scots & Scotland. Yet it is a tenet of both legal systems that sovereignty cannot be given away by any sovereign. Put another way a sovereign cannot give away sovereignty but can only abdicate their sovereign powers to the next in line by birth.
It was not always thus for all Christendom, (Basically all of Europe), had the rule of law of, “Divine Right of Kings”. This assumed that God gave the monarch the Divine Right to Rule but if one monarch could, (by the will of God), defeat another monarch in war then the victor, (by God’s grace), annexed the defeated monarch’s kingdom. The same rule, (God’s will), applied if a monarch inherited another kingdom or if a male monarch married a female monarch.
So in 1320 the Scots law changed by the ruling of Gods representative on Earth, (The Holy Roman Se), ruling that Scotland was an independent Kingdom but that Scottish monarchs were NOT Sovereign because the people of Scotland were sovereign. Their monarch was thus King of Scots but not King of Scotland. He/she was The defender of the people of Scotland’s sovereignty.
Then, in 1603, when James VI of Scotland inherited the Crown of England, the English Parliament ruled that he couldn’t annex the kingdom of England to his Scottish Kingdom because he was not sovereign in Scotland. Nether could he annex Scotland to the kingdom of England because again he was not sovereign in Scotland.
Then, in 1688, the Parliament of England rebelled against their monarch that was also monarch of Scots and deposed their monarch. However, as Scotland was still an independent kingdom the English parliament’s decisions did not apply to Scotland.
The claim that there was a Jacobite rebellion is balderdash. You cannot rebel against another kingdoms monarch. Thus began the wars of the Jacobite uprisings as cots sought to defend their monarchy. But in 1688 the English parliament, after deposing their monarch, invited the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange to become joint monarchs of the Kingdom of England but only if they legally delegated their sovereign powers to the parliament of England.
So, in 1688, before the treaty of Union, the three country of England became a Constitutional Monarchy while the kingdom of Scotland remained a non-sovereign monarchy.
So that’s the thing about sovereignty – the sovereign cannot legally give it away but England got round that by having the monarch of England remain sovereign but had to legally delegate their sovereignty to the parliament of England.
SO, to expand and give some further examples of the above:
Hi Ruth Davidson, I hear yer a British Nationalist, zat right?
Hi Kezia Dugdale, what’s it like to be a British Nationalist?
Hi Willie Rennie, when did you become a British Nationalist?
Yeah, let’s get the reciprocal political terminology correct.
Or would they be UK Nationalists?
I’ll stick to being Scottish.
@ronnie anderson.
Unions in an indy Scotland will have to change.
You could not have uk trade unions operating in Scotland any more than unionist parties post indy.
An indy Scotland will have better employment laws than the current uk gov.
Trade unions will require to be wholly Scottish based to serve the interests of workers in Scotland.
There would, imo, be a better worker/employer/government, relationship in an indy Scotland.
There simply would not be the opportunity for current unions operating in Scotland to cause any major issues in the interim arrangements before Scottish unions are formed.
@ yesindyref2 says at 2:36 pm …. ”The Fraser of Allander is well respected, and this is their take on GERS.”
https://fraserofallander.org/2017/08/23/government-expenditure-and-revenue-scotland-2016-17/
…………………………………….
The doom and gloom brigade forecast of Scotland as part of the Union.
‘Fraser of Allander Economic Commentary June 2017.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUXk5qZjfw
………………………………………
And meanwhile wee Wendy Alexander’s (a former leader of Scottish Labour) husband Professor Brian Ashcroft of Fraser and Allander thinks:
”Independence is Better for Scotland.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuJyPnJ6Ghc
http://www.strath.ac.uk/staff/ashcroftbrianprof/
Yesindyref2 @ 3.52.
But the point is Yesindyref2….we are no a “part” of the Country that the government need to represent fairly…
We are one half of the country if it’s a Union.
And the Union has never worked like that!
O/T this morning I heard a Times journalist on the BBC refer to the German party AfD as ‘nationalist’.
Never heard that before, look out for more as the German elections approach as they might attempt to imply similarity with the SNP.
Mr Peffers. Why was it not called The United KingdomS (plural) of Great Britain in 1707 since it was the union of two Kingdoms?
Tatu3 says:
24 August, 2017 at 4:22 pm
Mr Peffers. Why was it not called The United KingdomS (plural) of Great Britain in 1707 since it was the union of two Kingdoms?
I think it would be because 2 or more of same thing/something is a plural and they weren’t the same-two separate states and became one supposed equal partners(the plural).We know that didn’t happen.
Sure Mr Peffers will fill you and me in.
@Robert Graham says:23 August, 2017 at 3:25 pm:
“I haven’t noticed a certain Mr C Alexander lately.
Having failed in his task Mr. Alexander has decided to take his mantras elsewhere, Robert.
” perhaps he is undergoing some much needed social skills training as he has recently been upsetting a few folk here , anyway best wishes.”
More likely it was Mr Alexander who was getting upset – hence his voluntary absence. As to you getting his name correct. I suspect the question should be, “Which one”?
Here’s a handy re-reminder for use:
If you receive a SNP “nationalist” type of question, you can say slowly…
“The national party of Scotland, your government, that being, the Scottish National Party, with no ists about it… ~ then your words ~”
But yeah, it’s a game for two players, SO two can play that game.
Sorry in advance for duplication, tried posting but might be in moderation due to size so have broken down:
1.
How about a better wee answer (call it an update) of your answer to the conversation of 10 years ago @agoosakisushi says at 1:59 pm
I think it is high time all of us answer the question:
“How do you think Scotland will survive after independence?”
With the question:
“How do you think England, Wales and NI will survive after Scotland gains her independence?”
Use the HMRCs own Regional Trade Statistics Latest Release:
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx
It’s got HMs Crown and awthing on it so the BritNats shouldn’t be too upset when you show them Scotland’s the only part of the UK with a trade surplus (£2 Billion although it is probably a lot more than that).
2.
Now I’m no macro-economist but:
“When just focusing on trade effects, a trade surplus means there is HIGH DEMAND FOR A COUNTRY’S GOODS* in the global market, which pushes the price higher and leads to a direct STENGTHENING OF THE DOMESTIC CURRENCY*. Countries with a trade surplus often continue to increase their exports over their imports as goods and services become more highly relied upon internationally.
*My CAPS.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/trade-surplus.asp
2.
Now I’m no macro-economist but:
“When just focusing on trade effects, a trade surplus means there is HIGH DEMAND FOR A COUNTRY’S GOODS* in the global market, which pushes the price higher and leads to a direct STENGTHENING OF THE DOMESTIC CURRENCY*. Countries with a trade surplus often continue to increase their exports over their imports as goods and services become more highly relied upon internationally.
*My CAPS.
http://www.investopedia[dot}com/terms/t/trade-surplus.asp
3.
Also:
Feel free to mention the infamous McCrone Report (after all it is a document on the Scottish economy written and researched in 1974 on behalf of the British Government), so again the BritNats should have no problem with the authenticity of the evidence presented:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report
“An independent Scotland’s budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be “EMBARRASSING*”.”
“Scotland’s currency “WOULD BECOME THE HARDEST IN EUROPE, WITH THE EXCEPTION PERHAPS OF THE NORWEGIAN KRONOR*.” From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. SCOTLAND WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO LEND HEAVILY TO ENGLAND*S and “this situation could last for a VERY LONG TIME* into the future.””
*My CAPS (again),
But note the use of ‘perhaps’ in relation to the exception of the NOK (Norwegian Kroner) as being stronger than an Indy Scots Currency in the ’70s.
Mention of Norway should always include mention of their Oil Fund vs The UKs Deficit run up by Westminster Unionist Govts of (Red, Blue and Yellow hues of Tory).
“The Government Pension Fund Global (Norwegian: Statens pensjonsfond Utland, SPU). The fund changed names in January 2006 from its previous name, The Petroleum Fund of Norway. The fund is commonly referred to as The Oil Fund”
As of June 2017 its total value is NOK 8.09 Trillion (USD 958 Billion) or £748 Billion GBP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
Versus
UK National Debt of: £17.2 Trillion.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicspending/bulletins/ukgovernmentdebtanddeficitforeurostatmaast/jantomar2017
Note that “General government gross debt was £1,720.1 billion at the end of the financial year ending March 2017, equivalent to 88.0% of gross domestic product (GDP)”, UK Gov Office for National Statistics so again the BritNats should have no problem with the reference source.
And if you want to add a wee touch of devilment in for good measure (and god knows I do), point out that you haven’t even mentioned the Isolationist Brexit Policies Westminster are going to cripple them with and it’s resultant hyperinflation (Weimar Republic Styli) once iScotlands tax receipts for Oil, Gas, Renewables, Whisky, Salmon, etc. are taken away from No. 11 Downing Street.
“The new Weimar Republic was now saddled with a massive war debt that it could not afford. That was made even worse by the fact that it was printing money without the economic resources to back it up.”
The Kaisers Quantitative Easing, basically (but BBC/MSM never point out this parallel).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
😉
@ wee bud says:
24 August, 2017 at 3:10 pm
Giving goose
‘Why don’t we just call them British Nationalist.’
In my (often reluctant)political discourses with customers etc it comes naturally to me to refer to ‘the three mainstream British Nationalist parties’or the ‘three Establishment British Nationalist parties’,as that’s exactly what they are.
It is slightly unwieldy but worth the effort to help them along with their self awareness.
Thae erses, oan Radio Scoattlin wurr cawin yoan GERS, ‘notional’.
Wuv goat thum, wuv goat thum.
Notional, notional, notional…… .
https://caltonjock.com/2017/08/24/glenfiddich-malt-whisky-proudly-associated-with-scotland-the-distillers-william-grant-family-sadly-associated-with-better-together-and-the-tory-unionist-party/
Meant to say
-‘political discourses with crazy,mad,mental Yoon customers’
I’m not at all happy about GERS – it was conceived by a Tory Scottish Secretary as a political means of dampening demand for independence, and that’s what it does. (See Unionist MSM for the incessant “black hole” repeats.)
The best we can do with GERS is to be sure that any deficit “revealed” by it is always coupled with a mention of the overall-UK deficit, which of course dwarfs the Scottish “share” of it.
After all, the sky isn’t exactly falling in on us right now as part of the UK, is it? So why should it be any different for us when properly independent…?
(And with full control, not highly-limited tax-trap “concessions”.)
@Petra
Yes I know, on the other hand Brian Ashcroft had some curiously positive things to say during Indy Ref 1, can’t remember off the top of my head. Even Wendy Alexander was a bit strange, not the full yoon. Fraser of Allander goes way back, 1975, and that’s another story I had some knowledge of, at least I think it was them organised the large survey of business in Scotland I helped processed the statistics for in a 2 man team. If not can’t think who it would have been.
@Liz g
Yes, but the point is that the UK isn’t even good for some regions of England, let alone Wales, Northern Ireland – and Scotland. That’s one of these “solidarity” arguments, as in “what did solidarity do for Wales, Norn Ireland, and the North of England, let alone Scotland?”.
Indy Ref 1 had some of it, I think with these experimental ONS stats, more can be made of it over the coming months. We are not alone in getting screwed over by the UK.
@Jockanese Wind Talker
The strength of a Scottish currency was one of the potential problems, discussed a little I think by the FCWG (Fiscal Commission Working Group). Basically we’d have had to take steps to weaken the currency for exports – perhaps by printing large bundles of money and spending it on Scotland!
National debt? Eh, what’s that? Wanna borrow some money? We’ve got loads.
Forget about Fraser of Allander and GERS jiggery pokery. Focus on Richard Murphy and Irish economist David McWilliams ….. who describes true power of the Scottish economy.
Love it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3B3BoTsXoU
……………………………………..
And a lecture by Professor Anton Muscatelli. Well worth listening to although 1.33 hours long.
‘Brexit and the future of the Scottish & UK economy.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er85u-DsU6M
Corbyn question – glimpsed him on Misreporting Scotland last night visiting a tweed factory in Stornoway. Thought they said Harris Tweed Hebrides but not 100% sure. If it was I wouldn’t be surprised as one of the principals is the lovely Brian Wilson of Hootsmon infamy. However one of the other main players, according to Companies House, is Ian Roper Taylor! Remember him from 2014 when he subbed BT with a huge donation with no questions asked in spite of his main company, Vitol’s dubious connections to Balkan terrorists/war criminals.
Here is yet another link to what the World at large thinks of Westminster and, unfortunately often think of England/Britain and the UK as synonymous terms that include Scotland when they say, “Perfidious Albion”.
This one comes from the New York Times:-
http://www.nytimes.com/1861/06/08/news/perfidious-albion-a-plea-for-the-british-people.html?mcubz=3
Now then @yesindyref2 says at 4:58 pm
Is that NOTIONAL, National Debt?
🙂
And yet the Greater English Region want’s too hold onto us ‘Subsidy Junkie’ Jocks.
How generous they are.
And @Foonurt says at 4:41 pm, I’ll bet Radio Shortbread still haven’t explained the meaning of Notional to their listeners??
See my comment at 12:01pm and an example if you haven’t seen it yet
😉
jfngw,
“Do I want independence because I think I will be richer, basically that’s a no from me. I want independence because I believe it is the natural condition for any nation.”
For a majority of Scots, the economic consideration is more important than their dignity and self respect.
Oops! Meant to mention to anyone following my cite the NY Times to check out the date of publication. It is at the head of the article.
@Petra
As I said in a previous posting, there are several ways of tackling GERS and all are valid, perhaps for different ausiences. Mine with a previous life background in stats, maths and finance, is to tackle it head on. Yes, both Murphy and Muscatelli are very interesting, I’ll check out Willaimes for instance about Ireland: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/05/16/daily-note-a-nation-once-again-dont-write-it-off
Everyone to their own strengths.
Pound down to 1.08!!!.
Don’t think the UK regime can hold interest rates down much longer as the British Poond goes down the pan. It wont be long before the full horror of Brexshit hits the consciousness of the general public. Their summer holiday abroad will have convinced a lot of them.
Once they work it out they will move full square behind IndyRef2 if there is not second UK Brexit ref on offer (which might now happen – is so bad news for us). This and not fine words or arguments is going to be thing thing that will finally get us out of this UK lunacy.
Ottomanboi,
“Scotland, however, is the universal exception in being perceived as uniquely unsuited to a status enjoyed by legions of states that however ‘poor’ none would willingly relinquish.”
Perceived by whom? The blame lies within Scotland, not outside.
It lies with the majority of “Scots” who voted No in 2014 and will vote No again, when another referendum is offered in 310 years.
In my humble opinion, these No voting “Scots” are:
The vast majorities of the selfish middle classes, the British nationalist elderly, the thugs and the English.
@ yesindyref2 says at 5:38 pm …. ”I’ll check out Williams for instance about Ireland: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/05/16/daily-note-a-nation-once-again-dont-write-it-off
Thanks for that yesindyref2. Interesting article for example ..
”Everyone to their own strengths. Fast-forward to now and the collapse of the once-dynamic Northern economy versus that of the Republic is shocking. Having been a fraction of the North’s at independence, the Republic’s industrial output is now ten times greater than that of Northern Ireland. Exports from the Republic are €89 billion while from the North, exports are a paltry €6 billion. This obviously reflects multinationals, but it also underscores just how far ahead the Republic’s industrial base is. Producing 15 times more exports underscores a vast difference in terms of the globalisation of business.”
@art1001
ooft! 1.08 euros. Still holding up against the dollar at 1.28. so my guess is that the dollar has been sliding against the euro, and the euro strengthening (maybe with its united stance on Brexit), but the dollar taking the UK with it. Luckily I got a business supply in a few weeks back that’s based on the dollar, just in case. Wish I could afford more.
Here’s what Wiki-Thursday says on it:
Notional:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/notional
National:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National
Nationalist:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nationalist
I remain Scottish (or howsabout Scotist?) 😉
Secondly, I note that the latest accusation against me is not just that I am a paid troll (I wish) – but that I am actually a member of the Rev’s paid contribution cabal! Where should I send my invoice?
Here you go sensible:D
https://www.mi5.gov.uk/contact-us
Great to see you back from your hols. Go anywhere nice?
Hey sensible, Scots like me have got “accustomed” to the English ten million percent against Scotland actually becoming a nation state again.
Then sensible, Scots like got “accustomed” to the English hysterically overjoyed at Leaving the EU, getting their country back etc.
What’s the good word Leave now though sensibledave, all the way down there on the south coast of England is it?
“O/T this morning I heard a Times journalist on the BBC refer to the German party AfD as ‘nationalist’.
Never heard that before, look out for more as the German elections approach as they might attempt to imply similarity with the SNP.”
Well spotted, Glamaig.
As I have said elsewhere, The French call the SNP “le parti indépendantiste” and are fully aware that they are completely different from, among others, the FN or AfD. Funny that they can discern the difference, eh, but not our State Propagandist?
Or maybe not…
Can Graf von M can tell us how the Germans would phrase this concept?
@Petra
Yes, and this:
“Interestingly, Unionists have now an economic incentive to join a united Ireland because the Union is impoverishing them, but I suspect they’d prefer to get poor in a semi-detached UK rather than join a much more coherent all-Ireland economic endeavour.”
substitute “Independent Scotland” for “united Ireland”, and there you go 🙂
Food for thought. The Rev has linked on Twitter to a very interesting analysis of twitter trolling. Basically, the allegation is that an individual is working the same 12 hour shift every day tweeting on subjects and in a manner which would be in the interests of a particular government..
No one should be surprised, of course,
However, it does make you think about who might place comments on WoS and with whose interests in mind!? It might just be a whole lot more complicated that pro Indy Wingers versus anti Indy Yoons!
Colonel Ruth just popped out on beeb gimp propaganda network to explain that the bigot councilors she let back into her tory freakshow, are going to do “diversity training.”
So that’s nice.
Christ imagine a tory diversity training academy, and their first graduate with hons, Colonel Ruth.
Orange Hitler also had Trump University but I think they had to close down under massive fraud charges.
How very tory that is.
Diversity Training’ = ‘De-Nazification’or alleged attempts to achieve it.
Ruth Davidson on BBC. Crying out for a Jane Godley voice over.
https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/900716911155187712
galamcennalath says:
24 August, 2017 at 6:03 pm
Food for thought.
A lot of it’s merely Scottish Lab activists, rather angry at anyone that wont vote SLab today, especially on facebook. Tories tend to be much more bumptious and faux confident, its always “us” and “we” Scots voted NO, we Scots have decided to Brits, with your average tory facebook dingdong, usually a retiree, with a military stuff, retired military. Its odd really considering how Scotland’s been almost completely demilitarised too, apart from Trident in Argyll.
God help us all if SLab do ever get back in.
yesindyref2 says:
I believe the lowest ever was €1.02 in the last few days of 2008.
If the next round of Brexit talks next week go as badly as some predict, with little progress so everything gets delayed, then records may be broken before too long.
Ha ha ha, excellent…
Diversity Training Academy
Is that like that Big Brother thing that people can watch live on their TV’s?
“Alastair is in the garden, while Robert is in the Diary Room.”
Who wants to do voice-over?
Why-Aye-Man.
@ gus 1940
Capella
Diversity Training lol , they’ll dance tae any tune tae keep on troughing .
Heedtracker @ 6.07
Ah cry Bullshit.
Ah want tae see them go tae Mass.
A month of Sundays should dae it……and photay’s or it didnay happen.
Seriously though they should resign or be sacked…. those views make them unfit for public office,in themselves.
But expressing them publicly makes them too stupid for public office!
While I have always agreed with the USA that having no religious test for public office was desirable.
Recent events have led me to believe that an intelligence test might no be oot o the ballpark and I could be persuaded.
@ Cactus Ah wunder if they know Ashley Banjo’s Black , he’ll dance oan they’re tap piece lol.
On Pound – Euro parity:
“The Pound, The Euro and a Toilet Flush… (FX:GBPEUR)”
“One of the more encouraging signals, when viewing a trend, is spotting when a price is under manual control. We come to this conclusion, generally when the level of market manipulation eases above ridiculous and such is the fable currently being fed by Pound / Euro movements.”
iii.co.uk/news-opinion/trends-and-targets/trends-and-targets-22082017
Posted on this thread by @osakisushi says, 23 August, 2017 at 12:19 pm on this very thread.
Re Diversity training for British Nationalist Tory goons lol.
Ironically there is no diversity among the British Nationalist parties – they are all anti Scottish British Nationalist.
British Nationalist Labour party.
British Nationalist Tory party.
British Nationalist LibDem party.
I’ve been reading around on the FoAI website, 3 more articles from or via Graeme Roy, who used to be on GERS itself.
First of all, I agree totally 100% with him about the actual integrity of the people working on GERS. and that they will have been working to the highest standards of statistics and statistical analysis. I also presume that they have been working WITH economists on the production of these stats.
There also advanced techniques that can be used to CORRECT dubious stats one way or another, and I daresay they used these. For instance you can get rogue data that doesn’t fit, and on inspection it turns out to be wrong, or produced in a different way to the rest. Analysis can and should highlight this and trigger corrections to the actual data.
https://fraserofallander.org/2017/03/28/estimating-scotlands-fiscal-position/
https://fraserofallander.org/2017/08/17/next-weeks-gers-numbers-part-1/
https://fraserofallander.org/2017/08/18/next-weeks-gers-numbers-part-2/
But I’ve done stats and models in “real” business environments where an actual product comes out of the door and gets sold one way or the other, for a profit, or a loss, and there’s something in all three articles that just leaves me – uneasy. One from that is that GERS itslef IS the end product, and stands or falls on its own merits.
I’ll have to re-read the articls at my leisure. I think part of it is that it defends GERS which has been attacked, rather than does a real devil’s advocate, though it does do some of that.
Perhaps I “feel” that the defence is too – defensive, and that’s not a comment against Roy who’s probably been responsibule for many of the improvements and methodology changes over the years. Basically you have to be ruthless with your own work, rather than be proud of it. You do your best, then open it up to attack from all sides, justified or not.
Those articles refer to this, though they say GERS doesn’t use them.
https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/RTS/Pages/default.aspx
Look at the size of those “undecided – known ” and “undecided – unknown” figures about imports and exports. Yes they don’t describe revenues or expenditure, and it’s not a surprise, accounting can’t be perfect specially for small exports and imports, but together they’re bigger or the same size as Scotland. So do you allocate them per captia – or what? And to whom?
More on trade.
What’s this ‘Rotterdam Effect’ thing anyway?
This was made much of down South by Brexiteers during the Brexit referendum.
Basically, it stems from the observable fact that, on paper, trade between The Netherlands and the UK is at the same kind of level as it is between the UK and Germany or France.
This is patently nonsense because The Netherlands has only a quarter the population of France and a fifth the population of Germany. So unless you accept the very unlikely hypothesis that the Dutch buy and use 4 or 5 times more UK goods than their larger neighbours, for no obvious reason, then it requires some other explanation.
The explanation is, of course, that most of the UK goods arriving at Rotterdam end up further afield. Elsewhere in the EU or elsewhere in the rest of the World.
Brexiteer interest in the matter was mainly in order to maintain that a great deal of it went furth of the EU thus reducing the UK’s alleged trade with the EU.
UK goods arriving in Rotterdam were largely moving on elsewhere and, they claimed a significant amount even to destinations outside the EU.
They could therefore imply that UK exports to the EU were, in reality, exaggerated.
Note Brexiteers were not particularly interested in complaining about exports to the Netherlands per se, because that was still the EU, but they used the evident distortion of exports through Rotterdam to imply a lot must be ending up outside the EU as well.
In fact, probably relatively little did end up outside the EU, but the issue still generated enough smoke and mirrors for them to consider the issue useful
We did not hear a lot (anything?) about it up here, possibly because we were further away or more likely, in case it alerted Scots to a much bigger and more relevant effect closer to home.
Scotland also has a Rotterdam effect because the reasons for it are simply down to geography and transport logistics. Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe and serves much of the Northern area of Europe below Scandinavia.
But Scotland has a much larger effect which distorts its export statistics, the ‘England Effect’. England physically sits between Scotland and Mid-Southern Europe.
Geographical Transport logistics still apply. The easiest route for Scottish goods to Southern Europe is by road down to a suitable English port.
Of Scotland £80 billion in exports(exc. oil) it is claimed that £50 billion goes to England. But in reality the ‘England Effect’ is likely to be distorting that figure in a similar way to claims about the ‘Rotterdam Effect’ only potentially to a much much greater extent.
Greater for two reasons.
First, the geography makes England a proportionately a potentially much greater distortion with virtually the bottom half of Europe being logistically best served with Scottish goods via England. For the UK, yes a disproportionate amount goes through Rotterdam but all the Spanish, French, Belgian ports are readily accessible as well.
Second, our concern is only how much the trade with England is exaggerated. i.e Scottish goods traveling on to EU countries still count as well as those going further afield.
Of course, quantifying how much goes on to the EU from England is just as difficult as those trying to quantify how much of the UK goods going to Rotterdam ended up elsewhere in the World.
But I would not be at all surprised if in reality, we actually are exporting more to the EU than we are to the UK.
Complications in quantification are manifold, not least due to the Customs Union regulations. For example, while many goods are required to list their place of origin on the customs manifestos, it is usually the last place processing or packaging them which is regarded as the export point.
Whisky is a special case because of bonded warehousing so is actually harder to fiddle in that regard.
But do not believe the often quoted figure of Scottish exports to England.
Shit! The rain is pourin’ doon…
Jist as well I have my Wings umbrella with me Yes!
Work good for both left & right handed.
Let there be rain.
Hey-yah-hey-yah.
@Jockanese Wind Talker
Aha! Now we know the Brexiteers’ secret devilishly cunning plan – yes, they DO have one after all.
Drive down the pound to parity with the euro, then peg it, then it wants to rise and they have to print billions, trillions of new pounds to keep it pegged, pay off the national debt which doesn’t really exist anyway, and pay the EU £100 billion in euros exit fee and tell them to do what they want with it, like change it into pounds.
I get it. Can I have some please?
Time to get down to work – finally today. One of those days. There are many 🙂
“to keep it pegged” … by buying euros
Mr Peffers: thanks for the link to Dr Spence and his article on the Perpetually Perfidious English Secret Service:
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/perfidious-albion-an-introduction-to-the-secret-history-of-the-british-empire
Have just installed extra PIR lighting at the back and put chicken wire across my badger run.
Anxious of Auld Cadzow asks, “Is this enough? Should I be worried?”
Seriously, these feckers never give up!
Just while Euro and trade is being discussed….
I live in the Central belt, and have noticed, for the first time, in a very long time, that new build housing is going up.
It’s very noticeable,,because, for the first time in years, I’ve had one of those flyers, advertising the new sites dotted around the Central belt, with show homes.
Always interested when the builders start getting active with their money.
Hope Eminem likes Scottish weather tonight at Bellahouston Park.
Just sayin’.
@ Tinto Chiel asks:
“As I have said elsewhere, The French call the SNP “le parti indépendantiste” and are fully aware that they are completely different from, among others, the FN or AfD. Funny that they can discern the difference, eh, but not our State Propagandist?
Or maybe not…
Can Graf von M can tell us how the Germans would phrase this concept?”
———————–
I can only give an opinion as an observer and not as someone who has had to actually live through a period when being a “Nationalist” or not could have serious repercussions for life and limb.
Most Germans seem to treat the “AfD movement” as a backward looking, nationalistic mentality which harkens back to the days when foreigners were few and far between, no asylum or migration, Germany should be its own master, very sceptical of Europe and the Euro, far right politically. (UKIP/FN similar but not as thick as the BNP, EDL chimps).
The AfD is not Germany. Don’t judge the place by the noise of the dogs barking…”
According to polls, they can possibly expect about 9% in the September elections which is a large drop compared to what they were 2-3 years ago. Germany has learned a lot of lessons from its past and as most of you will know when you travel in the country it’s become a very open, forward looking society which communicates happily with the rest of the world and has no wish for the “Good old days”.
Germany’s strength is the willingness to confront its past and let the future come.
Modern Germany and Scotland have many things in common and in my opinium would make very good partners.
I do ramble on sometimes, don’t I…sorry.
Thanks, Graf.
Had to go to Hamburg last year. My uncle’s bomber was finally identified by local historians/archaeologists as the wreck in a meadow close to the city. There was a nice commemoration for the seven crew and the 40,000+ inhabitants (+56000 injured) who died as the result of Bomber Harris’ decision to use incendiaries on what was basically a wooden mediaeval city.
“Germany’s strength is the willingness to confront its past and let the future come.”
Exactly. UKOKia seems obsessed with the past, and with every bloody war commemoration the Establishment don’t really give a Carmichael about but thinks the proles will lap up.
Everyone was so nice to us in Hamburg that it made matters worse. I felt extremely uncomfortable when I saw how little of the pre-war city remained.
The EU wasn’t an economic construction originally: it was a political one so we wouldn’t have to go through all this again in Europe.
I feel very strongly about this and see I’ve gone on a bit too.
Ironically, the manager of our hotel said his favourite programme was Outlander. You should have seen his face when I told him it was banned on terrestrial TV here.
@Graf Midgehunter (8.57) –
Way things are going, it’s hard to think of any European nation that wouldn’t be a better partner for Scotland than this ‘rUK’ disaster being driven by Tory WM.
All the squabbling over ‘migration’ stats cannot conceal one fact which should worry us all – the UK is perceived by Europeans as a place where bigotry and xenophobia is now so serious that living/working here isn’t worth the hostility and real danger of harm.
This, in itself, aside from *any* economic considerations, is reason enough for us to accelerate the divorce proceedings. We need out, to protect our own safety and sanity and, at the very least, assert some control over how we behave towards others, be they European or not.
art1001 24 August, 2017 at 5:39 pm
Far too many people are living in a bubble, fueled by cheap credit courtesy of the bank of England.
Losing the yearly cheap holiday to Spain will be the first step. Losing the SUV is the next one as car finance is going the same way as the housing sub-prime market did. The question is how long can the BoE keep interest rates so low when Brexit really starts to bite?
If interest rates do go up, a lot of people are going to be burned and not having a summer holiday will be the least of a lot of peoples worries.
@yesindyref2
Totally agree regarding the fraser of allander institute.
They are analysing a set of figures.
They are also however an organisation who buy into the neoclassical model of economics. That model buys into the ideology of austerity.
re Douglas Ross, sadly I dont think his comments about travellers will do him any harm at all in that constituency.
@ Glamaig
Not just in his constituency, either.
A few years ago my local council proposed to fulfil its obligations to the travelling community by turning an abandoned industrial estate into a fully-serviced site for them.
The local “worthies” organized a petition, which attracted more than 1000 signatures (village population about 2000), the SLab MP waded in, and the council backed down.
I’d written a letter to the planning department supporting the proposal (rather than complain unfairly about travellers’ litter and mess, give them bins and a shower block!). I assume I was the only person to do so, because the response I eventually received was a standard letter telling me the council had withdrawn the plans, and hoping I was reassured.
Recently, one of the prime movers behind the petition was bragging about how it had brought the whole village together. When talking to people I know about this, I was dismayed by how many of them thought the petitioners had a point.
Ignoring the Military presence ironically a lot of his constituents have ‘travelled’ North, to the land of free prescriptions and no bedroom tax @Glamaig says at 9:34pm
But SNPBaaad they howl as they sing GSTQ and wave their wee Union Flag while voting Tory, safe in the knowledge the Scots Gov will mitigate any Westminster Austerity cuts that might affect them.
They don’t do irony.
Morays Fisher folk and Farmers are away to get shafted in the Brexit ‘negotiations’ ‘cos they believed the Tories about taking back control.
Foonart at 4.41
Does that make them all British Notionalists?
Jockanese Wind Talker says:
24 August, 2017 at 9:49 pm
Its an area with a unique mix of people.
lots of ex-services and associated, some fishing, farms of all sizes, landowners with shootin and fishin, a sprinkling of oil/tech, hippies/alternatives drawn by Findhorn, yachties, and then theres Gordonstoun types, plus a lot of really sound folk too. But overall basically conservative.
Going to “Scotland with the sunshine” in 2 weeks…thankful of 2 things…
1. We got the bulk of our spending cash when we booked.
2. We are all-inclusive.
@ Ian Brotherhood
“Way things are going, it’s hard to think of any European nation that wouldn’t be a better partner for Scotland than this ‘rUK’ disaster being driven by Tory WM.
… the UK is perceived by Europeans as a place where bigotry and xenophobia is now so serious that living/working here isn’t worth the hostility and real danger of harm.
… is reason enough for us to accelerate the divorce proceedings. We need out, to protect our own safety and sanity…
—————–
You said it buddy, much better than I can…..! 🙂
————————–
————————–
@ Tinto Chiel
I used to live in Kiel, not far away from Hamburg. It was the “big” city and used to go shopping there. It’s a very lively open place with a dry sense of humour and shitloads of live music..!!
My father was in the RAF regiment during the war – protection and safety of the aerodromes.
My then German father-in-law was a Luftwaffe bomber crew member and had some sorties over England. Was wounded and transfered to the army groundforces and survived the war.
We took my parents-in-law on holiday to the UK/Scotland where they met my parents and wider family.
Everybody got on well with each other including tales of what it was like in the war from both sides.
That’s why I can believe you were treated well and accepted as a human being and not as an adversary.
That would be something for Indy – a ferry from Edinburgh to Hamburg. Commerial and for travel. 😉
re travelling folk…
https://twitter.com/BenBennett26/status/900482016357036032
Hamburg – its incredible how they dont seem to bear any ill will against us. It is humbling. Its a place to be ashamed to be British.
Take a look at these maps – the areas considered to be high flammability were specially highlighted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34467543
I have seen a map showing the bomb hits in Hamburg but I cant find it now. Basically everything east of the Alster was obliterated.
Why does it always rain on me…?
Is it cause ah’ve always been ALIVE since ah was seventeen.
Love your Scotland X.
Hey Rev!
Cactus Honey hold it up straight and it’ll stop pissing down.
Hi
Tinto Chiel at 9:20 pm.
You typed,
“There was a nice commemoration for the seven crew and the 40,000+ inhabitants (+56000 injured) who died as the result of Bomber Harris’ decision to use incendiaries on what was basically a wooden mediaeval city.”
A wooden medieval city…
I only became aware of this leading up to the 60th anniversary of the bombing. Würzburg has been twinned with Dundee since the early 60s. I was there on a school exchange trip in 1968. There was fleeting mention of the destruction in WW2, particularly “The Residenz”, but no elaboration on just how bad it was.
It was only with mention of the anniversary that I started Googling.
Maybe you could have a look at these links…
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/wuerzburg.htm
(That’s part 1 – part 2 is at the link.)
This short movie was shot by the Americans when they entered Würzburg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2hxgfLipZQ
It made me ashamed to be “British”.
In life…
Many things happen.
Et with iScotland… take it, it yours.
C’mon.
Now.
Looks like there is a chance Tian Tian may be about to give birth to Scotland`s first Panda,
fingers crossed.
Re Hamburg and Wurtzburg
It certainly is amazing the capacity of people to forgive. I recently visited Warsaw, which was totally levelled by the Germans in 1944/5 and there was a German school choir there receiving warm applause in the Royal Park.
I wish the little-Englanders could forget the war instead of onstantly glorifying it. It wasn’t even their generation which fought in it. Those who did are almost all dead now.
Why does Scotland get the bad Oil?
Is our 50% of UK exports, good exports or bad exports?
wordtracking is important when framing a position so i agree we should all adopt a “medium sized country” when referencing Scotland
@BDTT (10.46) –
‘It made me ashamed to be “British”.’
Brian, I haven’t even opened the link you provided, and I probably won’t, because I dread what it contains. Approx 36 yrs ago I read Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse Five, same time as a few of my pals – we passed it on. It was every bit as mind-blowing as the other stuff we were sharing, but was uniquely disturbing.
About 15 yrs ago I found stuff online about what actually happened in Dresden, and it was only then I started to appreciate what Vonnegut had tried to do, why he had chosen to present his eyewitness account in the way that he did.
Right now we can all access images which Vonnegut would only ever have been told about. His nightmarish accounts of what he saw were bad enough – now, a fully illustrated version of what he had mentioned as mere ‘rumours’ would be possible, in a matter of seconds.
The fact that the British Establishment has never made the slightest effort to acknowledge any guilt in the commission of such crimes is very important – even Churchill made serious efforts to distance himself from the decision to destroy Dresden. Given what we know about him, that alone should speak volumes.
@Rock
Comment from today’s Herald re Named Person Scheme:
Councils are misusing the powers they already have under Girfec ( Getting It Right For Every Child). That acronym would be funny it’s so far from the truth, if it weren’t for the suffering that families are already being put through by Social Workers’ misconduct which is leading to children not getting the support they need and instead Social Workers are bullying and abusing decent, loving parents.
Human Rights Act, that’s something that the Scottish Government talks a lot about, just try having your human rights upheld if it’s a Social Work Dept that has abused them.
First port of call: the council’s own complaint process. The guilty investigating the guilty. I think you can guess how that will go: Complaint not upheld.
Next Step: SPSO.
SPSO: Social Workers investigated by ex-Council workers. They will probably personally know at least some of the staff at that Council. Ex-colleagues. Acquaintances. Friends.
EVERYTHING the Council say will be accepted as 100% fact. If you have 100% incontrovertible proof of misconduct, that evidence will not be considered by the SPSO.
So, it’s your word against theirs. Your word and the word of 100 witnesses that say they would swear on a stack of bibles counts for nothing against the word of one social worker or Council official.
The SPSO DO uphold complaints. Of course they do: staff could have explained better; they could have responded sooner. They should have sent a letter. All the minor clerical errors, they will uphold them. If you complain about the most serious of abuses, the SPSO will uphold them as – clerical errors or misunderstandings.
But Social Work staff: deliberately lied? deliberately bullied, intimidated, abused? Staff breached Human Rights law? Staff committed gross misconduct and made life hell for families? Social Work staff and the Council then went into operation discredit and cover-up, worse than the Watergate Scandal?
Even if they did. The SPSO will not uphold those complaints.
Why? The SPSO, is biased. Corrupt. Dishonest. Defenders of Public Bodies’ reputations. They are more corrupt than the people they are investigating.
Try complaining to the Scottish Govt that the SPSO is corrupt and you will be told: “nothing to do with us; they are independent.” ( Though they created the monster and gave it life).
About as independent as Scotland since the 2014 indyref.
The SPSO will refer you to a complaint body that deals with Ombudsmen. They will investigate how courteous and how well they communicated etc. They won’t look at SPSO corruption and false conclusions to your complaints.
Right then: If you want justice, take it to the Scottish Courts. Oh dear, how naive you are about Scotland. The Scottish Legal system can be more corrupt than the SPSO.
Has anyone tried to get Legal Aid for Civil legal aid for a Human Rights case as a parent against a Council Social Work Dept? (Unless you happen to be a solicitor you will need to hire one to deal with an Ordinary Procedure court action.)
Your case will be judged by the Scottish Legal Aid Board, BEFORE it goes to court. Expect to be refused court legal aid for a solicitor to represent you in court.
Bang goes that idea.
Try Simple Procedure if you think you can do the case yourself – for cases up to 5000.
Expect the letter back: The Sheriff has refused your application and you should use the Ordinary Procedure. No explanation. Nothing.
You would have more chance with Judge Rinder on the TV.
This is under the CURRENT system.
I pity the poor parents who have to deal with Social Workers and Councils with even more powers and the same non-existent protections against Human Rights abuses by some Social Workers and corrupt Councils.
( And it’s not an “SNP bad” comment. It’s just the truth. Alex Neil, SNP MSP was also scathing in his criticism of the SPSO).
Re Tatu3 says: why was it not called the United Kingdoms …
In Jane Austen’s time, it was called the United Kingdoms.
She even states it as such in one of her later novels.
The comparative bombing figures are:
Allied tonnage dropped on Germany nearly 2 million.
Civilian casualties 350,000 to 500,000
German tonnage dropped on UK 70,000 – 80,000
Civilian casualties 32,000 45,000
colin alexander says:
24 August, 2017 at 11:31 pm
@Rock
All you two dingdongs are doing is mimicking massed ranks of BBC Scotland led press, that everything is really really shite, so don’t change. Its a lot like relentless tory beeb gimpery, war is peace.
No one is under illusion that lawyers are a bunch of crooks Colin A. The crooked lawyer is an integral part of western culture, drama downwards.
At least you’re trying Colon A.
Just for comparative unfun.
The nuclear option.
Tonnage dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki 10
Civilian casualties 200,000+
Corbyn was on STV news tonight bleating on about federalism now. The way to go he says mentioning areas of England (not Kingdoms). Kezia was filmed trailing after him in Glasgow grinning like the Cheshire Cat. You know the Kezia who thinks that Corbyn is a fool, as no doubt Corbyn thinks she is after the General Election. Labour fools personified but still Better Together with each other and the Tories. What’s new? Nothing as we know full well by their absolutely abysmal track record in Scotland. Add to that selling us out as per the McCrone Report and actually giving away our bl**dy seas encompassing 7 oil fields .. and the REST.
And just to add that I kind of quite liked him as a person previously but I now see him with his slow moving, hesitant way as being a bit of a fly man who has no interest in Scotland other than acquiring votes to support his English party just like Brown and every other Labour leader that has gone before him.
Ponsonby asked him if control of fishing and agriculture would be handed over to Scotland following Brexit and eh as he danced around the question we were all still waiting for a direct answer. As per usual, the Westminster way, not forthcoming. Nicola was interviewed and asked why Corbyn was targeting SNP seats instead of Tory seats highlighting that they are still in a Better Together clique and that Corbyn has knocked SNP policies. Great ‘snippet’ from Nicola. No doubt cut short.
And then we have that other wee runt Davidson stating that a couple of sectarian bigots are undergoing diversity treatment. For God’s sake give us all a break. Is anyone actually being taken in with this woman? Diversity by the way meaning the condition of having or including people from different ethnicities and social backgrounds. Davidson doesn’t seem to realise that there is no treatment that’s effective for dragging bigoted thoughts out of someone’s brainbox. It’s all part and parcel of their personality running through their very veins and neurons like a spider’s web. Diversity treatment just enables the narcissist to put on an act in an attempt to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes. In other words these two will be watching their step now, but what about the others? She blew the dog whistle that attracted MANY lean, mean people. Now she has to deal with it.
All in all it’s looking good for us. Corbyn is just another Westminster lackey who supports leaving the single market and customs union. Not what 62% of the Scots voted for. Not what 92% of Brexiting Scots want either. It’s also clear that he is just another English politician (one wee ordinary man) who supports the view that England will always have to be appeased to the detriment of Scotland. Dugdale is just Dugdale the nincompoop who goes with the Unionist flow. Davidson will have to spend most of her time defending her Big T boss’s (or another eejit) horrendous policies and making excuses on a weekly or monthly basis for the multitude of bigoted, sectarian Tory politicians and Councillors in Scotland that she has attracted to her party. Diversity treatment or not, leopards never change their spots.
Roll on Independence Day because it’s well and truly coming folks. The Scots are known for being the greatest ‘party going’ people in the World. Are you ready for THAT party? If not get ready. We’re going to have the greatest party that the world has ever seen.
Aweright Chick Bro ~
200,000 is just like under the third of the population of Scotland’s Glasgow.
I feel a theme developing here, here and here.
Welcome to tomorrow.
BTBWild.
Ahm HOME & dry.
Petra
Did Corbyn get asked about Crash Gordo’s almost incalculable PFI debt Labour left behind, hundreds of billions, of which most of will spend our lives paying back…to whom, nobody knows, for what, SLabour PFI schools dropping to bits etc?
It took about 70 years for the UK to repay the US for our WW2 bill. It was finally repaid under Crash Gordo too. His PFI catastrofuck will take just as long to repay but at least offshore faceless tax dodger millionaires will be richer than their wildest dreams.
So old JC probably wasn’t asked about Labour’s last go at government.
Its just as bad SLab debt wise locally. Sir Wullie Young OBE, formerly Aberdeen City Council finance convener, ran up a £1.2 billion for the sucka council tax payers of Aberdeen. On what, no ones knows, why, Sir Wulllie wont say, when will this one thousand two hundred million plus quid debt be repaid by Aberdeen?
No one knows.
Just vote SLab again, to get the whole shower of debt crazed shits back at Scots finances.
Hey Paula Rose darling.. you still up honey too too?
Paula is the bestest everest dancer.
She got da moves xx.
WOS! WOW! It’s Friday!
I’m having SO much FUN.
Are you having FUN?
Yep, I’m having fun.
Well, fun might be an exaggeration but I’m quite content.
Merci beaucoup fun and contented cearc, miss ye, see ye soon xx.
Wings Rules OK.
Pay day.
Aug 17.
I know i have kind of avoided the media to a large extent recently, but has the media coverage of GERS been more low key than usual this time ?
Are we awe goin’ walkies on Saturday?
This Saturday…?
Like, tomorrow?
Visit Dunfermline.
Visit Scotland.
Ahm gaun.
Scotland.
See FB.
Utoo?
geeo @ 1.32
I thought that it was just me…but yes there’s no been as many bells and whistles this time!
Find enjoyment in everything that YOU choose to do.
Scotland.
Oui!
You miss my point about confederalism. I know it’s a non-starter, I know England would not go for it.
But cast your mind back. Alex Salmond outmanoeuvred the whole Unionist campaign by proposing to listen to the population and put a DevoMax option on the 2014 ballot. We all knew Alex Salmond didn’t want DevoMax, but he proposed it knowing full well the Unionists were going to froth at the mouth and shoot the idea down. Alex Salmond thus secured the single option referendum he always wanted, and left the Unionists to claim credit for shutting down a DevoMax option which could have split the YES vote, and keeping it off the ballot. It was the strategic thinking and foresight of Alex Salmond which got DevoMax OFF the ballot. Look at the escalating panic, and indeed the focus upon DevoMax type concessions promising more powers that the Unionists had to flout Purdah rules to shovel down our throats. Alex Salmond has set them up like nine pins, and they had to cheat like feck for the Union to survive.
Alex Salmond used strategy to take all the potency out of DevoMax, because he used the pig headedness of Better Together against them to ensure YES2014 was a single question Referendum.
That is how I see Confederalism. It isn’t a solution to anything, it probably isn’t workable, and it cannot properly be delivered. JUST LIKE DEVOMAX.
The difference however is that the concept of Confederalism is much more likely to split the Unionist vote than the Independentists vote.
Labours federalist bullshit is designed to have us weigh up the arguments for Independence against the status quo sweetened with vague promises of more power. You can directly rebut that argument, or argue about betrayal and inconstancy, as our current strategy seems to do, – or you can wrong foot the Unionists by sweeping through their whole federalist strategy by acknowledging the principle of federalism, only going much further and forcing the Unionisnt campaign to argue for Confederalism, not mealy mouthed federalism which doesn’t go far enough.
Frame the debate so the Unionist campaign is divided between Federalism and Confederalism, because then the Unionist Confederalists will find themselves inadvertently arguing for the Confederal option, not DevoMax this time but IndyMin. The important bit of IndyMin is in its first four letters.
Ssshh! Keep it to yourselves for now, but IndyMin is Indy. The “min” bit doesn’t matter, because the Indy threshold will have been crossed. Just the same as DevoMax delivered “Devo” then cynically forgot about the awkward “Max” bit tagged on at the end.
I again paraphrase the question I raised before, not to John Robertson of course, it was George Robertson who was asked the question about his Unionism.. “We all know your First preference is always going to be Independence, but what would your second preference be? A federal DevoMax or a Confederal IndyMin?
Now think about that, and think about it in the context of a bleak and friendless Brexit where Scotland using its sovereignty to stay in the EU can perhaps facilitate a mutually respectful and supportive end to the obsolete Union, and deliver a softer Brexit, and reduced Tariff EU trade for England. Then ask yourself whether debate about that “second best option” is going to unsettle and split a YES campaign, or divide and split Unionist campaign.
There is a reason why the Unionists went for Alex Salmond with all smear-guns blazing. Alex Salmond could get Unionist turkeys marching in demand for Christmas.
We Independentists should feel comfortable about discussing confederalism and IndyMin. Confederalism is the rosy cheeked strong backed big brother of the weak and pastey faced anaemic little brother Federalism.
Whatever Federalism can do, Confederalism can do better. Whatever DevoMax can do, IndyMin can do better.
Get Unionists arguing about Federalism and Confederalism, they same way they got us arguing about DevoMax and Independence. Before they realise, our big prize of Indy will have quietly strolled over the finishing line.
If people are trying to persuade you Federalism is the answer, aw bless, just ask them to explain why Confederalism cannot.
LINKS;
The Soft Criminalisation of Pro-Independence Activism;
https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/08/22/the-soft-criminalisation-of-pro-independence-activism/
U.K. Keeps Mum on the Brexit Bill It Must Pay for Trade Deal;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-24/u-k-keeps-shtum-on-the-brexit-bill-it-must-pay-for-trade-deal
The EU has been a key ally in building industrial areas of Britain;
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-eu-has-been-a-key-ally-in-building-industrial-areas-of-britain/
Links;
Jon Snow admits he ‘got it WRONG’ on Brexit;
http://archive.is/R49Mi
BRITAIN’S hopes of a favourable Brexit deal have been given a huge boost after the German engineering industry called for more constructive talks between the UK and the EU;
http://archive.is/wsd8Z
More American Troops to Afghanistan, To Keep the Chinese Out? Lithium and the Battle for Afghanistan’s Mineral Riches
By Prof Michel Chossudovsky;
http://mailchi.mp/globalresearch/more-american-troops-to-afghanistan-to-keep-the-chinese-out-lithium-and-the-battle-for-afghanistans-mineral-riches?e=3df3cac8eb;
LINKS;
Is life in Norway as happy as it’s cracked up to be?;
https://theconversation.com/is-life-in-norway-as-happy-as-its-cracked-up-to-be-76516
Theresa May under fire as student visa myth exposed;
http://archive.is/ClWcB
BREAKING: The UN has just accused the Tories of creating a ‘human catastrophe’ in the UK;
https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/24/breaking-un-just-accused-tories-creating-human-catastrophe-uk/
LINKS;
‘North Sea pipe dream’ Oil could never save Scotland from budget meltdown and it’s time to face the truth;
http://archive.is/PQ0pq#selection-963.0-963.105
Brexodus: Sharp increase of EU nationals quitting the UK sparks workforce fears;
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15494840.Brexodus__Sharp_increase_of_EU_nationals_quitting_the_UK_sparks_workforce_fears/
AND FINALLY:
Donald Trump just retweeted a ridiculous meme of himself ‘eclipsing’ Obama;
http://www.dailyedge.ie/donald-trump-eclipse-3563032-Aug2017/
Give Westminster no options they just might accept, last time they thought the referendum was a bit of a joke, and treated it as such. Today its a different ball game, Scotland must not split its options, Confederation is not a wise option, ask the Southern States of the USA.
JUST IN!
Affordable housing in Newburgh given green light
by Cheryl Peebles
?August 25 2017, 7.51am;
http://archive.is/QD7J6
Complete Independence, and ONLY complete Independence, for Scotland.
What a cheek Corbyn has. Nicola has done more to combat austerity in Scotland than he has done. No bedroom tax. £100Milliin a year to offset cuts from Westminster. Social care, prescriptions lower student fees etc. Corbyn and his cronies voted through or abstained every Tory policy. Unlawful welfare cuts etc. NHS/Education cuts. They are a disgrace. They could have brought Cameron down. They are now in league with the Tories. Dugdale was telling people to vote Tory. They are in league in Councils all over Scotland. Despite the SNP having the most members. Now Brexit damaging the Scottish economy and costing £Billions. When Scotland voted to stay in the EU.
Aberdeen City Council are even re arranging their Council meeting to accommodate two jobs Mason. To keep them in power. They spent £200Million on a grotesque monstrosity, no one wanted. They now have to cut £125Million. Cutting jobs and services. They are a disgrace. How can people vote for these people.
Thanks to the Weirs for another SNP donation.
The Tory liars getting the student numbers wrong again. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Bigots and racists.
6000 people did not turn out to vote. Two multimillionaire farmers getting £thousands in subsidies now represent the NE. Blaming the SNP for forty years of unionist policies. Scottish Gov 2000. SNP minority Gov 2007. Alex Salmond did more for the NE in five years, than the Unionists did in fifty years. AWPR, the offshore wind project, the airport expansion, new harbour project etc. Brought in investment.
The Tories reneged on all their promises. CCS projects etc. Cut Scottish budget. 10% a year since 2010. Now £3Billion less. Indepenence can’t come soon enough.
“The fact that the British Establishment has never made the slightest effort to acknowledge any guilt in the commission of such crimes is very important – even Churchill made serious efforts to distance himself from the decision to destroy Dresden. Given what we know about him, that alone should speak volumes.”
That’s the point I was really trying to make, IanB but you have made it much better than I did. I have never heard any British apology about Hamburg and Dresden was worse (and murkier in motivation).
I’ll look at those links, BDTT. I suspect they’ll be as harrowing as The Fire by Jorg Friedrich.
Thanks to all the other commenters on my rant: sorry about that.
I think an Edinburgh-Hamburg ferry link would be marvellous, Graf. The city is a great place and I could go to the odd Sankt Pauli game. I think the giant flak tower close by is the last one standing.
Smallaxe
Kevin Hague continues to write utter shite and the Daily Record shovels it out for him.
If that article were to have any real meaning there would be a companion piece on the successful Norwegian oil economy.
The Daily Record wouldn’t do that as it is anti-SNP and anti a successful Scotland, it wouldn’t serve the DR agenda to fully inform the Scottish public.
Daily dose of beeb gimpery.
SLab and tories took control of ACC, by cooking up and voting through rule changes.
SNP, “which is the largest group at the council but is in opposition” is very tory beeb gimpish.
And now this. We’ll always have beeb Scotland gimps trying to destroy Scottish democracy but, WOULD it kill us to see how we can get on, without being plagued by red or blue tory creeps, for a wee while:D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-41023891
Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s article “My North Sea research stands up to scrutiny” in to-day’s National is well worth a read. Not online yet.
Also never forget that £6 billion of the £13 billion deficit would removed on day one of Independence by not paying interest of UK’s massive national debt and by defence expenditure savings.
Meanwhile in Hootsman Martin Redfern gets TWO bites at attacking the SNP on Gers and Brian Wilson still harping on about narrow nationalism.
Daily Record nonsense. Westminster has taxed the Oil sector at 40% since Jan 2010. When the price had fallen 75% Westminster was taxing it at 62%. The Oil companies cut exploration in 2010 because of the high pro rata tax. Costing Scotland £4Billion a year and thousands of jobs, (£28Billion)
Scotland raises £58Billion in revenues. Increased £4Billion a year in the last two years. Despite Westminster mismanagement of the Oil sector and the economy. £1Billion on Trident, £1Billion could be saved on minimum pricing, £3Billion lost on tax evasion. Whisky companies etc pay no tax on vast profits. £4Billion lost in Oil revenues. Scotland has to pay interest on money it doesn’t borrow or spend. Scotland can’t borrow to invest in the economy to increase revenues. £Billions lost in EU renewable Grants etc, because of Westminster indecision. Total £20Billion.
Scotland gets back. £50Billion. £28Billion Block Grant, £Billion capital payment, £3.5Billion Defence contribution, £14Billion (UK) pensions/benefits. Scotland raises £58Billion. The UK raises £533Billion. Pro rata the rest of the UK raises £43.5Billion and borrows and spends more.
How much has Scotland lost because of illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. £Billions. Westminster has caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Costing £Trns.
If we ever got independence should we rename this country “Quangoland”?
GERS only shows that UK Scotland is incompetently administered on behalf of WM by dozens of quangos – that the Scottish Govt and Scottish Councils say is not their responsibility. ( Except, when occasionally there is some good news about them).
We have a society run by a plethora of quangos stuffed with grossly overpaid, incompetent, fatcat bosses paid well above what their talents and work deserves.
Quangos and Aleos arms-length organisations that are unaccountable to the general public. “Nothing to do with us”, say the Councils and the Scottish Govt: we don’t run them.
Complain to the SPSO?
The SPSO is another quango that is £3 million down the pan for useless penpushers to tell people their complaints are not upheld. That EVERYONE in public service organisations ALWAYS act with good intentions.
ReformScotland in 2013 reported about quango bosses:
19 earn at least as much or more than the First Minister;
39 earn at least as much or more than a Cabinet Secretary;
48 earn as much as or more than a Scottish Government minister;
The CEO of Scottish Enterprise has a salary double that of the Finance Secretary;
The CEO of every health body earns as much as or more than the Health Secretary.
We can always waste our time complaining to the plethora of public salaried councillors, MSPs and MPs and their army of civil servants many of which also serve no useful purpose at great expense.
It’s a myth more is spent per head to deliver better public services in Scotland. More is spent to pay for all these public salaried drains on resources. To pay for the detached villas in Milngavie and Morningside – and the Mercedes for him and h.
Of course NO Scottish Govt does anything about it, as whether it’s Labour/LibDems or SNP or Tories, they themselves are often the perfect example of a waste of public money.
Scotland is over-governed by too many politicians. Who run very little anymore. The quangos do that.
Brian Powell says:
25 August, 2017 at 9:04 am
“Smallaxe
Kevin Hague continues to write utter shite and the Daily Record shovels it out for him.”
Agreed!
🙂
A top professor has just pulled apart the BBC’s ‘shameful’ pro-Brexit bias;
https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/24/top-professor-just-pulled-apart-bbcs-shameful-pro-brexit-bias/
Salmond: ‘Psycho’ Donald Trump hadn’t even heard of the Highland Clearances;
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15494838.Salmond___Psycho__Donald_Trump_hadn___t_even_heard_of_the_Highland_Clearances/
Sorry about the typo in the first line of my post
@August, 2017 at 3:09 pm
It should have read as federal rather than confederal.
We are already in what is affectively a confederal Europe and Westminster doesn’t like it, because it can’t control Europe.
which besides the issue of immigration, is why large numbers of why voters primarily in England voted to leave, in order to take back control and make Britain great again.
I also watched the Corbyn interview on the early news bullitens last night, when he spoke only Labour can eradicate poverty in the UK, though he never mentioned why those areas which have had Labour MPs or have been under Labour control 75 years or more have such appalling levels of Poverty.
I almost burst out laughing when he mentioned federalism,
he really does appear to be living on another planet.
As other posters have already mentioned, federalism, and Conferderalism are nonstarters.
The Tories and I suspect many in Labour along with the people of England wouldn’t tolerate it, they would see it as the Balkanisation of their country
(in this sense I mean as they view the UK)
Martin Redfer – yet another of the Scotsman’s btl colonialist loonies comes onboard as an actual author of part of the paper’s ‘alleged news’ content.
I suppose it is cheaper to use your letter writers rather than employ journalists.
Desperate days at JP.
Smallaxe, you’re doing a fine job as Nana’s stand in. Well done, but, don’t be overdoing things.
heedtracker
‘BBC gimps’ is a good phrase.
I think they think there is a bright successful other end to the Independence journey, for them that is. They believe there is a status quo land waiting for them.
In fact their tactics and antics show the state they support is irretrievably broken. They take a position of deceit, misinformation and outright lies. A few years ago they would have considered all the actions they now take to be signs of a failed state but fail to see they are exhibiting these signs themselves.
Aberdeenshire councillors give expansion plans at Bay of Nigg £5.5m vote of approval
by Lee McCann 25/08/2017, 9:04 am;
http://archive.is/B3VXM#selection-10231.0-10374.0
Marie Clark; See O/T
I could never hope to be as good as Nana but I’m doing my best.
🙂
@ Colin
I don’t think GIRFEC is an acronym as it’s not a word on its own. But aye, it’s not a popular policy, mainly for the hypothetical slippery slopes and distrust of excessive statism.
But it’s not too different from England’s ‘Every Child Matters’, which is curiously conspicuous in its absence from articles criticising GIRFEC. Anyway, the ‘named person’ will have nothing to do with the vast majority of families, as those families will just ignore them. I suppose when your children are very young and liable to go and tell an adult in authority that they hate their parents because they make them do horrible things like eat their vegetables, and then make something up when they see that doesn’t elicit the desired sympathy, then just don’t tell the ittle shits of the existence of the state creep. It’s what I would do.
I don’t foresee a long future for GIRFEC, though. But at least the Scottish Government can say that they tried it out. As for folk getting a rough ride with overly-zealous social workers – that’s nothing new.
@ Nana
Your links
https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/08/22/the-soft-criminalisation-of-pro-independence-activism/
bit? scary. Rev’s been quiet, hope he’s feeling strong.
Anyhoos….. (sing) Y’all ready for this?!!
https://www.facebook.com/events/469563306769422/
The always shines on Indy:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/gcvwcrx3b#?date=2017-08-26
Although I really hope there’s more than 400 going!
The Bikers for Indy are making an appearance but seem to have needed a bit of persuasion, I think a good few of them will be at Thunder in the Glen.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/YesBikers/
As Mr R and I have walking problems we’re going to The Bruce (in Bruce Street, street to right of Toon Clock as your marching) to meet a pal then will join in from there.
Afterwards at the Brasshouse on Carnegie Drive.
Got our flags, got our badges, got my ribbons, getting quite excited – feel like I’m coming over all Cactus like!
@ Smallaxe
Abject apologies! Please forgive me for saying ‘Nana’s links’. Grovel, grovel.
Trying to catch up too quick, too much silliness and excitement over tomorrow.
Liz Rannoch says:
“@ Smallaxe, Abject apologies!”
Absolutely no need for any apologies Liz, I’m only too happy that people are reading the links.
Have A great day.
🙂
O/T Dunfermline Tomorrow
Big shout for Indy march/Tomorrow – Weather is to be mostly Sunny 18 Deg !
Come on – Lets send Corbyn / Labour a big message about Scotland!
Forward As One ¦ Pro-Independence March & Rally, Dunfermline
Aug 26th 10.30 assembly.
Details.
https://www.facebook.com/events/469563306769422/?acontext=%7B%22ref%22%3A%223%22%2C%22ref_newsfeed_story_type%22%3A%22regular%22%2C%22action_history%22%3A%22null%22%7D
Brian Wilson: Scottish voters are ready to move on from nationalism;
http://archive.is/Popl1#selection-1639.0-1639.67
Martin Redfern: The SNP isn’t Scotland, merely a nationalist party;
http://archive.is/hXH3D#selection-1639.0-1639.66
We Scots could learn something about challenging the neo fascists, alt right, über BritNats in our midst …..
http://archive.is/qmbxw
🙂
Paywall!
Video: Scotland’s newest world champs refused victory march, while Orange and Republican parades can go ahead;
http://archive.is/UBmRD#selection-2139.0-2139.109
Breeks @ 6.41
I see what you are saying now Breeks….and yes it certainly is a plan.
But I still can’t support it…and for three reasons.
Firstly,and mainly,since as we have both agreed (I think) that a Confederation can’t really work.
So then using it as a “tactic”to split the vote.
Would IMHO run the risk of Westminster and it’s minions, actually running with it.
Dressing it up as the best way forward .
Then winning the reframing of the Union, where there will be a clear route to be able to vote to leave the Union.
But only those who pay close political attention will see the bar set will be unreachable.
Which is what I believe Labour is up too anyway,and I do mind reading somewhere that some Lord’s are looking at it too!
This new modern Union rubbish,will probably be written up and good to go soon.
We need to stay away from it.
Secondly… I think that is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon has been working hard to rule out since Brexit.
She is setting up every option that would be necessary for the implementation of Devo Max/Federalism/Confederation,and Westminster will enter the next Indy ref having already ruled out those exact power’s.
I think that this is to rule out any last minute offers and actually keep them OFF the ballot paper.
We should not,I think,help to put them on.
Thirdly. Those who are campaigning for Indy have gone well beyond any new Union arrangements.
They want Independance,they haven’t gone anywhere in three years.
So there’s still almost half the country rejecting the Union.
Who would feel sold out and then cheated.
When the bright shiny new Union went the way of the Smith Commission.
The have absolutely no trust in Westminster and want it to have no influence in their lives.
They don’t want any of their taxes funding it either…
Soooo…. Nothing would be settled,if Westminster ran with a new Union and “just” won!
Well not for us anyway.
But Westminster will have secured the Union,for the foreseeable future.
Breeks… I know, that you know,enough to know, while we are not ensuring the ending of the actual Treaty.. nothing changes..
So that’s why I think that when we are a few % from doing that…. that’s what we head straight for.
@Reluctant Nationalist
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your post.
Have you tried Googling GIRFEC? It’s been in practice for a long time, Named Person fits into its framework.
It is an acronym.
Another piece by Richard murphy on GERS..
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/08/25/gers-is-this-why-it-always-says-the-scottish-deficit-is-so-large/
Smallaxe says:
“… an annual ritual of pro-UK politicians battering the Nationalists … “
Here we go again! Why are the likes of Brian Wilson in total denial that most of the nationalism we see in politics is BRITISH NATIONALISM?
Does he really believe that pro-UK politicians are not fervent nationalists, often of a distinctly blood and soil flavour?
Wilson’s language might be modified to …
“… an annual ritual of British Nationalist politicians battering the Scottish pro democracy movement … “
@ Smallaxe 10.28
Thank you, as always P & L (ssshh) 🙂
Funny thing happened yesterday. I was linking to the video of ‘the mooth’ and the diversity thing when the phone rang. I ended up watching the video without the sound.
Wasn’t there a programme about ‘how to tell when people (criminals) are lying’. I remember a trailer for it. Is it when they look away/down?
Try it for yourself and see how many times she does it.
I wish everyone a great day out and a very successful Pro-Independence March & Rally in Dunfermline tomorrow.
I would have attended, but unfortunately, I can’t, due
to health problems at the moment.
Hague’s piece has little substance but can’t see a conments section in the DR.
It would be above the average record reader anyway.
The large PAYE coming out of the city today is down to bailouts of 2008. Tax recycles existing money – it doesn’t create money.
Aide kerr tweeting about scotland’s deficit if independent. Shockingly irresponsible.
For one thing our export revenue would be different and England’s trade deficit would sky rocket.
Inglish Nationalism and the Scots who worship it is a really dreadful thing
The school I went to used to encourage me to work and study hard in the hope of going to London one day for a good job
When I questioned that ambition I was informed there was no future in Scotland as all the good jobs were in Inglind
That was back in the 50s and here we are in 2017 and basically they’re still saying the same thing
Scotland is shit
Except when it comes to us saying well we’ll leave then, then the Scot Brits go practically apoplectic with rage and you think why does it bother them so much when they don’t like it here anyway and they’d rather be in that big Inglind with their Idols so shouldn’t they leave and go there if it’s so good
British and Inglish Nationalists shouldn’t really wonder why real Scottish people who educated themselves don’t care for them much or the garbage that comes out of their mouths
because they’re either liars or they’re stupid, it couldn’t possibly be something else could it
In 2016, the hundredth anniversary of the 1916 fight for freedom, a few economists in Ireland did an exercise to measure the Irish economy if the Republic was still part of the UK, the findings were that our GDP would be 20% less than Wales. Making Ireland the poorest region, instead we have a growing economy as an indepdent nation.
All the GERS comparisons with Scotland & England are massively distorted by London and the South East of England,
take Lon/SE out the equations and the rest of UK is in general parity,
Lon/SE sucks in money from rest of UK to make the rich richer,
London is 3rd in cities with most millionaires and 5th with most billionaires.
Just returned to Scotland after 10 years abroad I have kept in touch via Wings and other pro Indy sites.
Just listening to bbc radio Scotland, what a bizarre station?
I hear guests being asked what’s it like to be in uk? If ever there is a time for visitors to Scotland to be reminded they are in Scotland is when they are being interviewed by Scottish interviewers in Scotland for a radio station with a Scottish audience.
In the past two weeks I read or heard on various bbc in Scotland formats, web, tv and radio the following described as british
Pandas
Celtic FC
Oil
Salmon
Ben Nevis
Edinburgh Festival
Snow
RBS
Western Isles
Pentland Firth
Sea Eagles
and of course, Scotland itself
I have also become more aware of the nature of propaganda peddled against the SNP and independence and pro unionist parties.
What I am struggling with is why the SNP are taking this on the chin and not attacking back?
If bbc and others are not rebutted, the ground won since I have been away will be lost, our country is being stolen from us and the vast mojo ritzy of Scots have their eyes closed!
Dr Jim says:
“British and Inglish Nationalists shouldn’t really wonder why real Scottish people who educated themselves don’t care for them much or the garbage that comes out of their mouths
because they’re either liars or they’re stupid, it couldn’t possibly be something else could it”
Probably both, Dr Jim
I see a lot of you are unhappy with the content, writers and articles in lots of newspapers.
You should all send them letters for publication on a frequent basis setting out your own views. Some of them will definitely be published, mine are.
Obviously many of you have lots of time to write long spiels to each other on Wings on a daily basis but that is not reaching the soft No voter who gets their daily digest of information from the papers many of you despise.
My wife and I were at the Salmond Unleashed show yesterday, and it was very enjoyable. Alex said at the conclusion that another extra show, “The Presidential Bombshell Show”, had been added for last night. Were any wingers in attendance, and was it explosive?
Valerie, you’re right. For some reason I thought an acronym had to spell out an already extant word. I’ve been wondering around with that in my head for a worrying length of time. Fuck sake. Soz, Colin.
Aye I meant ‘named person’ really, although I probably meant GIRFEC subconsciously as 90% of anything I’ve read about the named person scheme has been a criticism of the Orwellian possibilities and they’ve conflated GIRFEC with it, and I’ve got that into my head.
I didn’t know that GIRFEC had been around for all that time. Cheers!
Footsoldier says:
“You should all send them letters for publication on a frequent basis setting out your own views. Some of them will definitely be published, mine are.”
Lots of us do just that and more, Footsoldier.
@ Footsoldier
Very good succinct point .. hadn’t thought of it that way.
Personally will switch tactic as suggested for a while (not kidding think you’ve got a point).
Revs main info will always be a good read and by far the best source of whats going on, but certain commentators always seem to be talking to each other (nothing wrong with that I suppose), but then there are the pain in the arse trolls who pop up that are tiresome beyond belief and tend to wind the place up no end.
Had enough of that for a while.
Surely arch unionist red tory Brian Wilson means-Scotland to move on from British Nationalism.
“British and Inglish Nationalists…”
Bringlish for short.
The Wasp @11.39
Re Eck’s Trump Special show today’s Scotsman has 2 articles:-
The first one is a professional balanced report portraying the show as successful and well done.
The second report is by one of their tame colonialist ‘journalists’ Tom Peterkin and so predictably it is negative – these Scotsman alleged journalists just can’t help themselves from sticking to the paper’s anti SNP line.
It’s a good idea about people writing letters to the national newspapers, even if only a few actually get published.
Personally I write letters to my local newspapers,
which, I don’t have a problem getting published.
the reason being its usually local issues which are of most interest to people.
Whenever possible I also point out how Westminster policies impact detrimentally on the local issues.
@gus1940
You have been posting for long enough to be considered a Winger.
Please give archived links ONLY, especially to the “North Briton”
Hope the sun shines on Dunfermline – have a great day!
Dr Jim says
Truly dreadful indeed!
Although I use the phrase ‘British Nationalist’, I am never quite clear in my head whether there is such a thing!
Naggingly, I keep asking myself if it is all just English Nationalism and the cult of wannabe English from elsewhere in these islands.
Apologies do not know how to “archive” (have googled, no help there) but this is interesting, and positive.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/25/labour-brexit-position-is-deeply-worrying-scottish-voters-on-corbyn
dorothy devine – this first i heard of the rally was the recent link on independence live , i looked on the bbc website and there was nothing there now thats surprising the usually highlight upcoming events , maybe they will put it up later , Aye Right .no laughing at the back now .
Looking forward to the rally and full day in Dunfermline tomorrow. Got my Wings flag ready!
The guys running this have done a huge amount of work for this rally. The YES bikers are promising something special and there will be a pipeband.
Try and support it folks, if you can.
Tatu3,
http://archive.is/35lcH
Just go to http://archive.is and paste your link in. It is that easy.
@Sinky says: 25 August, 2017 at 9:06 am:
“Brian Wilson still harping on about narrow nationalism.”
Why would he not, Sinky?
He is after all a leading, blood and soil, narrow British/English Nationalist. A Top Unionist and all unionists are Britnats.
It is one of those strange quirks of the human mind that has the British/English Nationalist seeing most other nations on Earth as being some form of bad nationalists even when these nations are members of multi-national organisations like the United Nations, Council of Europe, NATO and such like.
Yet the Britnat/UKnat/AngloNat lot cannot see their own, much narrower, actual blood & soil nationalism as being in any way a corrosive, divisive and narrow nationalism
Compare, for the moment the attitudes of the BritNat Unionnists and the Scottish NATIONAL Party.
The SNP are an open and inclusive party and the BritNat, AngloNat Unionist parties are one an all exclusive as each of them are anti-immigration, anti-EU, anti- Scottish, Anti-Welsh and Anti-Irish republic.
Yet the cannot see the tiny splinted in other nations eye as it is obscured by a muckle big oaken beam in their own eyes.
The rally is found at– http://www.forwardas.one
Sent for retraining, Hmmn?
All the people who voted for the Inglish Better Together parties should know that everything will be OK because the MPs they voted for will now be sent to retraining classes to learn how NOT to be racist
The only problem with that is if the retraining succeeds in making them human beings the racists who voted for them wont vote for them next time and Ruth’ll have to recruit a whole new band of racists to keep the original racist voters happy
Although somehow I don’t think the retraining is a real thing and I’m sure I’ve heard that kind of talk before
Just… can’t… think?
Tatu3
Please bookmark this link.
http://archive.is/
Just copy the url and paste it in to the box.
Dr Jim
well said. this may take some time. Best sing the wheels on the bus ……… whilst we wait
” The Government has unwittingly handed some ammunition to those trying to stop Brexit in its papers …. on the Northern Ireland border, customs arrangements, civil judicial co-operation or data sharing, the UK is trying to replicate what it has now as an EU member. Plus ça change. “
Interesting viewpoint.
http://archive.is/wVBvz (Text only)
I think stopping Brexit should be simple…..
In 2014 they won the Scottish independence referendum by making lots of promises which they never kept
In 2016 they won the EU referendum by making lots of promises which they are now trying desperately to keep.
They could simply treat the English electorate the way they treated the Scots i.e. just ignore their will! Just break all promises and cancel the Brexit fiasco. Brexit could go the way of DevoSuperFederalMax.
Moral. A promise to the Scots doesn’t need to be kept, a promise to the English must be fulfilled, it seems.
@ ScottieDog – thx for the link to Richard Murphy’s article on GERS. Looks very interesting. Hope he can confirm the truth of this apparent sleight of hand which deflates the Scottish Revenue figures..
“The point then is this: a significant sum is spent for but not in Scotland. The cost is recorded as Scottish. But because the version of accruals accounting in GERS is a distortion of what that accounting concept actually requires, which is that costs and revenues be matched, the tax paid as a result of that spend does not appear to be credited to the Scottish tax account. Instead it is credited where the activity takes place.”
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/08/25/gers-is-this-why-it-always-says-the-scottish-deficit-is-so-large/
Robert graham , I’m sure it is just a wee slip up by the office junior and will be rectified and highlighted for all to see – the BBBC in Scotland never knowingly lets us down!
( cough ,splutter and trying not to choke)
Many thanks to all who posted info- re forward as one, also this Dunfermline event, I think this highlights the importance of cooperation between Indy supporting sites and the need , to go forward as one, this has shown as never before all the separate groups need a central point of focus, most Indy supporting sites have links to other sites , this possibly might work with the proposed umbrella group if only personnel differences and egos can for once be dropped until Independence actually happens.
Inter support with all sides dropping the Ego bit , this surfaced with the recent spate between ‘ YES ‘ supporters to the great joy of Unionists this gave them ammunition and a great lift, this if all parties reflect on it should never happen again.The Unionists are using the wider ‘YES’ movement to do their work for them, How bloody accommodating is that now .
@Liz Rannoch says: 25 August, 2017 at 11:16 am:
“Wasn’t there a programme about ‘how to tell when people (criminals) are lying’. I remember a trailer for it. Is it when they look away/down? “
Nah! All that looking either down or away is really them reading the script on their desk or the auto-cue in the studio.
However, those are the places where they have the lies written down by the production crew for them to read out for the cameras.
@ Liz Rannoch – are you thinking of the NLP eye movement clues? Largely considered to be unscientific nowadays but maybe still useful in some circs:
https://nlp-now.co.uk/nlp-eye-movement-clues/
Capella says:
… now that is a cracker. Makes sense since so much of the spending attributed to Scotland actually takes place outside Scotland. If there was a similar spend in an iScotland, tax would count.
I’m no economist nor accountant so of course wouldnt have spotted this. However, surprising we have never heard of this before now from those who do deal with such things.
@ Reluctant Nationalist
@ Valerie
The reality with Girfec and with the named person scheme, is that when the powers are abused by authority there is insufficient redress or protection for those parents / carers abused by Social Workers or Councils.
The only redress is Council complaint procedures and the SPSO, both of which are incredibly corrupt.
The last resort is court action for which it is unlikely the abused will get funding to present their case.
So people are left at the mercy of Social Workers / teachers etc, who may make a genuine well intentioned mistakes or maliciously seek to cause damage.
Either way, it’s wrong to harm others even if you meant well.
But as long as these people stick to a mantra: “it was with good intentions” ( even if it wasn’t), it is near to impossible for any misconduct to be upheld against these social work / education staff for negligent or vindictive actions.
To say it has gone on for a long time does not excuse it. It just highlights all governments – including the current ones – have failed to balance protection for individuals against harm caused by social workers with actually doing more to help and protect children and families.
BREXIT. For those who wish EU news without the Media Spin.
A direct link to the Negotiations for the UK Exiting the European Union.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/departments/taskforce-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en