stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


The Too Wee Factor

Posted on August 23, 2017 by

This morning sees the release of another set of GERS (Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland) figures accompanied, no doubt, by the usual strange hybrid of sneering and cringing from Unionist politicians braying proudly that we’re too small, too subsidised and too stupid to ever look after our own country.

So as the annual circus act gets under way again, for a little perspective we took a quick look at Scotland’s actual standing in the international community.

Below is the top 10% or so of a table of the world’s independent countries, with their population, gross domestic product (GDP) and land mass size, that we’ve thrown together with pathetic little Scotland for comparison.

The source data is from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and all the figures are their estimates for 2017. Because the IMF doesn’t publish figures for Scotland, we’ve used the Scottish Government’s 2015 GDP figure and Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) to convert to US dollars for comparison purposes.

Technically speaking, the best dataset to use for comparison is the OECD’s, which gives real GDP per capita based on PPP conversion of US dollars – eliminating currency and price differences between countries – but the OECD only includes 35 countries and we wanted to give you a proper sense of just how useless and uniquely incapable Scotland is.

Yes, we’re afraid it really is that bad, folks. Ordered by the fairest and most relevant comparison – GDP per capita – Scotland is such a total economic basket case (hampered, as it is, by the terrible loss-making burden of North Sea oil) that as an independent nation it’d only be five places higher in the table than the UK.

(That’s pre-Brexit UK, of course.)

Please remember that this is just a bit of fun and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Obviously, for a properly expert assessment of an independent Scotland’s economy you’ll need to have the stats analysed by some guy who sells dog food for a living, in which case you should probably tune into BBC Scotland all day today.

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    653 to “The Too Wee Factor”

    1. Foonurt says:

      Aye Lanarkist (10-09pm, [24th]), spoat oan. Wae ivrrae last wan ah thum, ah leein basturt.

      Notional – Grand Ersatz Rank Statistics (GERS).

    2. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – yes, Richard Murphy is cautious and still trying to figure out what it might mean. Says it probably doesn’t amount to more than £10 billion!
      In the comments section someone points out that Scottish men have a shorter life span and so the pension spend is likely to be about £1 billion less than GERS says it is.

      Well that’s £11 billion straight away. Not bad for a days work!

      Think RM ought to get at least 10%.

    3. Alex Clark says:

      Want to understand the GERS figures? I posted this on here 6 months ago and have no qualms about repeating it.

      O/T After yesterdays discussion on Gers this morning I downloaded a document “Country and Regional Analysis Noverber 2016” from the HMRC website.

      It purports to breakdown “identifiable expenditure” spending in England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland into its various components, health, education etc.

      One item in particular was amazing to me at least. According to this document:

      “The UK average spend per head is £9,076. The highest spend per head is in Northern Ireland at £10,983, this is followed by Scotland at £10,536, Wales at £9,996 and then England at £8,816.”

      So the spend in Scotland per person is now £1720/person more than in England. Take note that “identifiable expenditure” is only 88% of expenditure, the other 12% being deemed as “UK expenditure”.

      There are a couple of really interesting facts in there like for General public services the spend in Scotland is £189/head and in England less than half that at £89/head.

      I’ll bet you didn’t know that for Environment Protection (dealing with waste) spend in Scotland is £258 and in England just £165.

      Or I’ll bet you be thrilled to hear that Scotland spends £199/head on Recreation, culture and religion compared to the poor English who only get £102

      Here’s a biggie the UK generously spends £261/head on national and local roads in Scotland. What’s the score then as England only get’s a paltry £130/head spent on roads?

      Now we must have the best roads in the UK eh! I smell ****.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/country-and-regional-analysis-2016

    4. Alex Clark says:

      Following it up with this. We wies robbed.

      Re my earlier post there are figures in that document that I can believe are all per person Scotland v England.

      Spending on health: £2258 Sco £2106 Eng
      Education: £1470 Sco £1266 Eng
      Social Housing: £245 Sco £67 Eng

      Note that these are all Devolved issues which in itself speaks volumes. Compare with roads which is under the Department of Transports budget.

      Don’t you just get the feeling they are dumping “spending” on Scotland that really isn’t attributable to Scotland?

      On page 9 you have a cracker of a get out clause for the figures for spending on roads for the “regions”, it is this:

      “a robust methodology is not available to allocate all expenditure to regions on a ‘who benefits?’ basis. This is particularly difficult for spending on motorways and trunk roads (by the Highways Agency) due to the nature of the networks, so expenditure is therefore allocated on an ‘in’ basis”

      Now not entirely sure just what means but it does imply that costs can be attributed to Scotland even if we don’t benefit. There are two types of spend according to them “who benefits” which is directly attributable and “who’s in” which is all of us.

      I guess their argument is that Scotland “benefits” from improvements or maintenance of the M1 just as much as England does cause we Scots might use the M1 on our trips to England.

      Laughable so it isnae!

    5. Petra says:

      I had a look at a video on one of the links that Smallaxe posted this morning. It was about Paul Murphy complaining about anti-water (privatisation of) protesters being put under surveillance in the Republic of Ireland. Paul Murphy leads the protest to prevent Irish water being privatised.

      The Soft Criminalisation of Pro-Independence Activism;

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/08/22/the-soft-criminalisation-of-pro-independence-activism/

      Paul Murphy, I now know, through carrying out a little research and on taking a look at many Youtube videos is an Irish politician akin to Scotland’s Tommy Sheridan. Has been arrested, jailed etc.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Murphy_(Irish_politician)

      He’s was thorn in Enda Kenny’s flesh (until he stepped down) as can be seen by him pursuing issues such as British agents operating in the Republic of Ireland.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlyTY2408zQ

      But anyway back to the issue of water. It just so happened that I also came across a post on Craig Murray’s site (last article / page 6) by someone named Giyane, whom I’m sure won’t mind me reposting his / her comments here.

      ‘’Severn Trent Water has charged my brother in law £190.00 x 2 for 2 contractors to travel in the same van to sort out a non-existent leak. Severn Trent has a large HQ within 10 miles of his house. £40.00 per mile? HMRC only allow me 0.45p per mile. Where am I going wrong? He has a CCTV camera covering his back garden which shows they were in the garden for 2 short visits of about five minutes each. Severn Trent Water have charged £116.59 x 2 for 2 contractors to spend 10 minutes in which they could not find a leak. £700.00 per hour is a little higher than my hourly rate. Threats were made of bailiffs if the contractors found nobody at the house to let them in.

      Can I ask please what kind of economic system we are now living in , that gives big corporations the right to threaten, blackmail and bully their customers? Who the fuck does Severn Trent Water think they are? They are Thatcherite scum operating under Mrs May’s Conservative Party which you mugs voted for because she said she wanted to make a UK that works for everyone. I have no pension fund which will drop if Severn Trent Water’s shares will fall, as some scumbag Tory said this morning about corporate profit. can you imagine waking up in the morning and going down the BBC to tell the people who want to hear the news that corporate greed is good for you? Forget about the pulling down the ancient statues. Concentrate on this conservative government.’’

      We know that ‘’water as will be to the 21st Century what oil was to the 20th‘’(Fortune Magazine). We also know that individuals such as Boris Johnston (and experts in the field) has been wracking his brains trying to figure out how to build a network of underground pipes to transport millions of litres of water from Scotland to the oft parched capital and south east of England with rainfall during periods of drought said to be comparable with arid Tunisia.

      He, Boris, said: “Since Scotland and Wales are on the whole higher up than England (smacks of Jimmy Hood!), it is surely time to do the obvious – use the principle of gravity to bring surplus rain from the mountains to irrigate and refresh the breadbasket of the country in the south and east.”

      In other words it’s not just our oil, gas, electricity etc that they want to hold onto with their long sharp claws and all encompassing tentacles (strange creature indeed, lol). Scottish water must be at the top of their list, as Mahdi al-Tajir, now the richest man in Scotland, well knows. Mahdi with interests in metal, oil, gas trading and Scottish water.

      http://highlandspring.com/

      And finally this makes for a really interesting read. ‘PRIVATISATION OF WATER …as an Owned Commodity rather than a Universal Human Right.

      http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_globalwater39.htm

    6. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      Yup, that’s it in a nutshell.

      IainMcW was a devo-max supporter so basically a NO voter, until he worked out that devo-max would never be “granted”.

      Same thing goes for federalism and confederalism, with the additional England 85% as a factor why, even if actually done, it would never work.

      I’m all for it! Indy back door, here we come 🙂

      But shhhhh, don’t tell them that.

    7. Petra says:

      @ stu mac says at 4:00 pm …

      http://www.thehighlandtimes.com/news/2017/08/25/new-questions-for-davidson-in-bigotry-row/

      Wow Davidson has been telling serious porkies. Who would have thought it?

      ‘..The anti-Sectarianism Charity Nil by Mouth have now said they are disappointed by the Tories’ response – adding that they were only contacted by the party about the diversity and equalities training after the councillors had been readmitted, contradicting the claims by Ruth Davidson ..’

    8. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. STV News this afternoon:
      “The Scottish FA’s compliance officer is looking into comments made by football official and MP Douglas Ross, which could lead to him facing a disciplinary panel……..”

      “The Scottish Conservatives have declined to comment, referring all queries to the SFA.”

      https://stv.tv/sport/football/1396450-referee-douglas-ross-investigated-by-sfa-over-gypsy-comments/

    9. Tatu3 says:

      Thank you for the info on archiving. Page duly bookmarked for future use.

    10. Bawbag says:

      500!

    11. yesindyref2 says:

      Good heavens! From a comment on Murphy’s blog “15% of Network Rail’s total costs [are assigned] to Scotland purely on an abstraction from route mile figures”

      As the comment says, a lot of it is single track and the cheaper radio signalling. PLus the HQ is in London, and research centres in Melton Mowbray in Leicestershire and the other in Tuxford in Nottinghamshire, plus of course Derby.

    12. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Robert Graham 1.50

      I’ve been posting about this for 2 weeks or more. See my post today 10.11 even got the weather forecast, it’s a good one. 🙂

      @ Dorothy Devine, if you’re still around, I’m even considering ironing my T Shirt!

    13. Andy-B says:

      The Tories are under investigation in Wales.

      http://archive.is/E4SRi

    14. Dorothy Devine says:

      Watching Ghandi -what a bunch of arrogant B’s the British are /were – even if only half of it is true.

      Liz , whoo hoo! Sorry I can’t be there to witness that sensation!

    15. Robert Graham says:

      Liz Rannoch – Sorry missed your posts- on what has recently become the Mr C Alexander website, I must have missed them in the flurry of his posts, it’s amazing how disruptive one person can be, again many thanks.

    16. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 says 4:28 pm

      Good heavens! From a comment on Murphy’s blog “15% of Network Rail’s total costs [are assigned] to Scotland purely on an abstraction from route mile figures

      So that’s 15% rather than the 8% population share. I wonder what it is 15% of?

      We will have the deficit transformed into a surplus by the end of the afternoon.

    17. yesindyref2 says:

      A recap of GERS – where we all are, the different approaches being used towards it. First, I hoped and expected ESA2010 would make a difference. It has, minor, but not what I wanted, I got that wrong.

      1). GERS does not reflect the finances of an Independent Scotland, it is a starting point for seeing what they would be. Tick.

      2). GERS is produced from estimates, and these estimates don’t reflect the reality. Tick. I personally am sure of that having done some thinking and checking.

      3). GERS shows that the Union hasn’t been good for Scotland, but devolution has improved our lot, giving us some control. Tick. There’s been some good, but nowhere near our fair share.

      4). GERS was set up by Ian Lang in 1992 to show that Scotland was a basket case. Tick. Some truth in that then, methodology changes and better data have improved GERS, specially since the SNP in 2007, but there’s still some truth in that.

      5). GERS is rubbish, ignore it. Tick – not for me, but it is an approach for those that can swing it.

      6). GERS needs to be analysed thoroughly, a respected team, to show the absence of economic activity in Scotland for some proportion of spending attributed to Scotland but not spent here. Plus that’s even tru for spending by the SG on such as rolling stock maybe built outside Scotalnd, IT systems, so on. Richard Murphy is on this, but it should be a high profile part of the YES group, similar to the Cuthberts. Tick, and that’s more my line of approach. A voice in the wilderness on that one, so far, apparently, unless there’s a secret project underway. Having read and re-read this, and the 3 articles, I respect Roy, and agree about integrity, but the 3 articles linked as “Related” are too defensive and not critical enough.

      That’s not good enough, Fraser of Allander Institute, you’re supposed to be ruthlessly analytical, not defensive. I am and was with my own work, are you not as good and ethical as me then?

      https://fraserofallander.org/2017/08/23/government-expenditure-and-revenue-scotland-2016-17/

    18. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Dorothy Devine

      Dinnae fash yersel too much – only considering! 🙂

      @ Robert Graham

      No apologies needed, Mr C&A gets on mine too. 🙂

    19. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Jack Murphy 4.18.

      Thanks for linking to Douglas Ross’s nasty comments re. gypsies (sic) and travellers. I was hoping the SFA would have to get involved because his comments were “non-compliant”.

      I knew an old travelling woman in Skye in the 70s and I would have trusted her with my last pound.

      Not something you could ever say of a Tory, mind you…..

    20. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      A point made by Richard Murphy is that GERS is supposed to be accruals accounting, but that the GERS definition is different from the more generally accepted one. And that is that spending is related to revenues.

      To take the extreme case – reductio ad absurdum – if all the £71.2 billion from GERS 2016-17 spent by or on behalf of Scotland, was actually spent in London, there would be £0 economic benefit to us, and therefore £0 revenues to us for that spending, because of a total lack of economic activity in Scotland from it.

      So it’s not all about “spending” as unionists would like us to believe, it’s about WHERE that spending is done.

      So yes, we could even be running a surplus now, unless total detailed and attributed accounts are med up from actuals, not vague per capita estimates at a “5% confidence interval” – a statisticians nice way of saying that there’s a 5% chance of the figures being total crap – see opinion polls. (I did stats in business environments at times).

    21. louis.b.argyll says:

      The GERS figures also prove that

      the Tory And Labour Party at Westminster

      got us all into unsustainable debt in

      the first place.

      They sold our gold, they’re still

      selling-off our national assets and

      infrastructure.

      Now Labour helps the Tories. Together
      they create legislation. Selling out students, the vulnerable, the poor and the working classes, maintaining stagnant wages while markets of course, fully recover.

      Labour voted for the bedroom tax.

      Blair & Brown invented tax relief systems for the wealthiest savers that the Tories would never have got away with.

      We can’t trust Westminster with our future.

    22. Dan Huil says:

      Hope we’re getting a cartoon from Chris tomorrow.

    23. Liz Rannoch says:

      One of my posts seems to have gone awol. Maybe when I went for more tea or maybe got slightly confused with being at the top of a new page. Do I get a sticky bun or something?

      @ Robert Graham 3.07

      ‘Umbrella group’, I’ve always thought that’s what Yes2Hub was supposed to be.

      @ Robert Peffers 3.16 and Capella 3.33

      Robert – naughty, naughty but lol. Capella, sorry that doesn’t ring any bells. The trailer I saw had something to do with the Ian Huntly and Maxine Carr. Mentioned closing eyes and hesitant speech, I’ve tried googling but maybe I don’t google so good.

    24. Andy-B says:

      I see the Tory British nationalist Douglas Ross, has apologised. He said Gypsy travellers were his number one priority, but not in a good way.

      Hitler’s form of nationalism also saw the Gypsy people as a priority, and not in a good way either.

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 25 August, 2017 at 11:32 am:

      ” You should all send them letters for publication on a frequent basis setting out your own views. Some of them will definitely be published, mine are.”

      Och! Footsoldier, I’m in my 80s now and I gave up that silly game decades ago. It is a total waste of time. First up if the writer has made a really salient point or put up a really good argument it simply will not be printed. Some times the letters were actually edited to suit their own agenda and there were diminishing returns as just about anyone you had the slightest chance of influencing had stopped trading the dead tree press because of the dead tree press anti-Scottish, anti-SNP, anti-independence bias.

      I’ve got far, far better things to do that are far more productive and effective in convincing those still unconverted.

      BTW: One of the most effective things is to really know your stuff and let some YoonYoonist numptie attempt to convert you back to YoonYoonism. If you know your stuff really well you should be able to find the flaw, and there will be flaws, in their argument and then give it both barrels.

      Even if they do not openly accept your counter argument it will shake their belief and, if you can prove you are right you will have caused someone to doubt their belief in the Union. If you can just demolish one dearly held YoonYoonist belief you have sown a seed that will take roots.

    26. Petra says:

      One of my posts seems to have gone AWOL too Liz, so attempting to post it again!

      …………………………………………….

      I had a look at a video on one of the links that Smallaxe posted this morning. It was about Paul Murphy complaining about anti-water (privatisation of) protesters being put under surveillance in the Republic of Ireland. Paul Murphy leads the protest to prevent Irish water being privatised.

      The Soft Criminalisation of Pro-Independence Activism;

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/08/22/the-soft-criminalisation-of-pro-independence-activism/

      Paul Murphy, I now know, through carrying out a little research and on taking a look at many Youtube videos is an Irish politician akin to Scotland’s Tommy Sheridan. Has been arrested, jailed etc.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Murphy_(Irish_politician)

      He’s was thorn in Enda Kenny’s flesh (until he stepped down) as can be seen by him pursuing issues such as British agents operating in the Republic of Ireland.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlyTY2408zQ

      But anyway back to the issue of water. It just so happened that I also came across a post on Craig Murray’s site (last article / page 6) by someone named Giyane, whom I’m sure won’t mind me reposting his / her comments here.

      ‘’Severn Trent Water has charged my brother in law £190.00 x 2 for 2 contractors to travel in the same van to sort out a non-existent leak. Severn Trent has a large HQ within 10 miles of his house. £40.00 per mile? HMRC only allow me 0.45p per mile. Where am I going wrong? He has a CCTV camera covering his back garden which shows they were in the garden for 2 short visits of about five minutes each. Severn Trent Water have charged £116.59 x 2 for 2 contractors to spend 10 minutes in which they could not find a leak. £700.00 per hour is a little higher than my hourly rate. Threats were made of bailiffs if the contractors found nobody at the house to let them in.

      Can I ask please what kind of economic system we are now living in , that gives big corporations the right to threaten, blackmail and bully their customers? Who the fuck does Severn Trent Water think they are? They are Thatcherite scum operating under Mrs May’s Conservative Party which you mugs voted for because she said she wanted to make a UK that works for everyone. I have no pension fund which will drop if Severn Trent Water’s shares will fall, as some scumbag Tory said this morning about corporate profit. can you imagine waking up in the morning and going down the BBC to tell the people who want to hear the news that corporate greed is good for you? Forget about the pulling down the ancient statues. Concentrate on this conservative government.’’

      We know that ‘’water as will be to the 21st Century what oil was to the 20th‘’(Fortune Magazine). We also know that individuals such as Boris Johnston (and experts in the field) has been wracking his brains trying to figure out how to build a network of underground pipes to transport millions of litres of water from Scotland to the oft parched capital and south east of England with rainfall during periods of drought said to be comparable with arid Tunisia.

      He, Boris, said: “Since Scotland and Wales are on the whole higher up than England (smacks of Jimmy Hood!), it is surely time to do the obvious – use the principle of gravity to bring surplus rain from the mountains to irrigate and refresh the breadbasket of the country in the south and east.”

      In other words it’s not just our oil, gas, electricity etc that they want to hold onto with their long sharp claws and all encompassing tentacles (strange creature indeed, lol). Scottish water must be at the top of their list, as Mahdi al-Tajir, now the richest man in Scotland, well knows. Mahdi with interests in metal, oil, gas trading and Scottish water.

      http://highlandspring.com/

      And finally this makes for a really interesting read. ‘PRIVATISATION OF WATER …as an Owned Commodity rather than a Universal Human Right.

      http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_globalwater39.htm

    27. Alex Clark says:

      Dan Huil

      Don’t pay the bbc tax.

      I agree but it really should be known as the propaganda tax. Either way don’t pay it, small protest but protest all the same.

    28. geeo says:

      Bernard Ponsonby on Corbyn…

      “If there is an election, and he wants to be PM, he must win seats in Scotland, he must win seats from the SNP”.

      No mention of winning seats from the TORIES…!!

      STV no better than the BBC.

    29. Brian Powell says:

      AndyB

      500,000 Gypsies were murdered by the Nazis during the course of WW2, also dramatised in the film, When the Violins Stopped.

    30. https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11589/tommy-sheppard-second-referendum-should-only-be-held-after-next-scottish-election

      It is a commonspace article. But Nicola has a mandate for indyref2 from Holyrood which will only be for the term of this parliament.

      What guarantee is there that pro-indy parties will have a majority in the next?

      I hope Tommy Shepherd has been misquoted. But the yoon media will make the most of it, no doubt. Nicola could have done without this.

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      Tommy Shephard is a maverick, and has priorities other than Indy I think. I’m glad I voted for Angus Robertson for depute, a steady hand at the tiller.

    32. Scotspine says:

      Hey, anyone heard from Stu? Twitter has gone silent.

      Hope all is well.

    33. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Tommy Sheppard is plain wrong.

    34. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 25 August, 2017 at 3:33 pm:

      “… the tax paid as a result of that spend does not appear to be credited to the Scottish tax account. Instead it is credited where the activity takes place.

      Yep! I’ve been highlighting that on Wings a very long time.

      The tax revenues from oil and gas go directly into the UK Treasury as coming from what Westminster claims is a fictional territory they call, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, that does not actually exist. It is the Entire United Kingdom’s territorial waters and the entire UK’s Continental Shelf territory.

      However, because the United Kingdom is actually, (legally), two partner kingdoms and up to 98% of the oil & gas revenues are from the internationally recognised territory that falls under Scottish legal jurisdiction, The Westminster Establishment invented this, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, (i.e. belonging to no particular United Kingdom, REGION). Then Westminster proceeds to credit the percentages on a relative population basis when the correct way is on a geographic basis. No matter, though, as the revenue earned ALL goes directly to the UK treasury.

      Then the other prime example is the National Grid Connection charges. By which the Westminster Establishment turns normal economic accounting practices on their head.

      First they charge a generating company more for a unit of electricity the further they are from the main market for the electric power. i.e. distance from London. Then they compound this madness by actually subsidising, (i.e. paying), generating companies around London FOR each unit of electricity they generate.

      However, normal rules of supply and demand dictate that the suppliers of a scarce commodity gets premium rates because the seller can sell anywhere but the buyer has the most need of the commodity.

      There are many more such Westminster scams but those two are not only the more easy to understand but the least known among the general public. Defence spending is another scam and all it takes is the Government agents who buy for the MOD to contract with southern based producers. So also such things as Printing, Stationary, Service, including such as Police and even NHS Nurses uniforms are bought from Southern suppliers .

      Even our coinage and banknotes are produced in the south but so are the Civil Services & Ministries situated in the south. Then there is the little realised stuff that goes under a heading of, “National Assets”.

      National Galleries, National Ballet, National Theatre, National Museums, The Greenwich Observatory, Buckingham Palace, and the Parliament itself plus the Whitehall Civil Service and Security Services not to mention such as, “The Admiralty”. Not to mention London rail, road and air terminals and such as National Exhibitions, Domes and National Monuments. Oh! Anf Olympic Stadia.

      Then we have the Exports scam. It doesn’t matter where anything is actually made for it is classed as being an export of the port or airport that it leaves the United Kingdom from.

      So even Scotch Whisky and Scottish produced GIN, (70% from Scotland), and even Scottish Salmon and other fish from Scottish Waters and Aberdeen Angus beef, are all counted by Westminster as English Exports.

      And that only begins to scratch the surface of the Westminster Scams. Thing is much of all that has been highlighted by people for decades but the Westminster owned propaganda just will not inform the public.

      Have a wee scan at this Niall Aslen exposure from way back in 2005 and 2006:-

      http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/obfuscation.htm

      Now ask yourself why the Scottish Main Stream Media and, “Scottish”, broadcasters have not made such things a high profile campaign?

      I, and many other SNP members knew about the MacCrone Report when it was first produced and, in spite of our many attempts to get the message out, the majority of Scots have never heard of it.

      … now that is a cracker. Makes sense since so much of the spending attributed to Scotland actually takes place outside Scotland. If there was a similar spend in an iScotland, tax would count.
      I’m no economist nor accountant so of course wouldnt have spotted this. However, surprising we have never heard of this before now from those who do deal with such things

    35. manandboy says:

      When he’s working in England & Wales, Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party.
      When he’s in Scotland, he is No2 in the Unionist Alliance. With the Unionists almost nothing is what it appears to be. Corbyn is in Scotland to damage the SNP and the Independence movement.

    36. Alex Clark says:

      @James Caithness

      Just read the article you linked too and my first though was to be annoyed. He makes a reasonable argument that if the SNP can’t win a majority in the Holyrood election in 2021 then it’s unlikely to win an Independence referendum in 2020.

      However I believe that he is wrong in that assumption, there are a great many still who will vote for Independence but never the SNP. I don’t have an issue with that, we know that 37% of Labour voters and 40% of Liberal voters voted Yes in the last referendum.

      We do get to have another throw of the dice whether this is the best time or not I don’t know. I would wait and see the reaction to any eventual Brexit deal though for sure.

      I think whether we go for it now or at some time in the future all hinges on that. I personally wouldn’t like to gamble our second bite at the cherry but you can’t delay for too long lest the opportunity be gone forever.

      From a purely selfish point of view I’d go for it NOW, before the next Holyrood election as it’s hard to see another scenario when the rUK will be in such disarray.

    37. Wullie says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      I always enjoy your posts. oil & gas revenues are from the internationally recognised territory that falls under Scottish legal jurisdiction.
      therefore I might ask.
      What are our legal eagles doing to protect our assets. Any thoughts.

    38. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Agreed @Dave McEwan Hill says at 6:44 pm,

      “Tommy Sheppard is plain wrong.”

      I too think he is wrong.

      …but Tommy Sheppard is an MP at Westminster not an MSP at Holyrood.

      …also and perhaps more pertinent, Yes he is a party member of the SNP.

      But all that means is he has the same right as you (I assume you are a card carrying member Dave) to propose this “wait ’til after the next Scots Gov election” to be considered for adoption as official Party policy.

      Same as every other member has.

      But more importantly the current Scottish Government at Holyrood HAS THE DEMOCRATIC MANDATE to hold a second Indy Ref in this Parliamentary Term.

      Personally I’ve always been an advocate of “if you don’t use it you lose it”.

      Not using it’s mandate this term then, the current Scottish Government may well lose it.

      The “Defenders of the Realm Party” will ensure no Indy Majority Government is returned next time, never mind an SNP Majority one.

      BBC/MSM will ensure that (the tactics employed at the Locals and GE this year) will be refined by then to ensure it.

    39. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Love it @manandboy says at 6:54 pm

      “When he’s in Scotland (Jeremy Corbyn), he is No2 in the Unionist Alliance.”

      Aye, I couldn’t have summed it up better.

      The British Labour in Scotland Party.

      Sidekick of Unionism (ill fitting costume and awthing), pity the mask has slipped and we see exactly who they are.

    40. louis.b.argyll says:

      Alex Clark, 6.54pm..
      ..as it’s hard to see another scenario when the rUK will be in such disarray.

      I can easily imagine worse to come, from Westminster. Brexit hasn’t affected food prices, yet.

    41. Alex Clark says:

      louis.b.argyll says:

      I can easily imagine worse to come, from Westminster. Brexit hasn’t affected food prices, yet.

      Well it has though maybe not as severely as what has yet to come.

      https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/food-inflation

    42. yesindyref2 says:

      Aye, use it or lose it.

    43. Meg merrilees says:

      Louis b. Argyll

      I read that the UK government has been putting loads of sterling into the market to try and keep the pound afloat and keep food prices from rocketing.
      Also read predictions that the amount of money they’re using is not sustainable and they could go bankrupt in the 4th quarter if they try and maintain the same rate of ‘subsidy’.

      Sorry, genuinely can’t remember the source- and then again poor weather can affect food prices too, so who knows…

    44. Meg merrilees says:

      Dan Huil @ 5.31

      Re Cartoons

      I widnae bank on it. See the Rev’s twitter feed:

      Chris is in Crete trying to get a suntan.

    45. Robert Louis says:

      I wholly agree with others above, that Tommy Shephard is wrong when he asserts that indy ref should not be held until after the next election (I’m actually quite shocked and genuinely disappointed). Indeed, I have to say, I have rarely heard such out of touch, ill-conceived hogwash from any politician for some time. The SNP have a massive electoral mandate. More MP’s than all the other parties put together, more than twice as many MSP’s as their nearest rival in the Scots Parliament, and more councillors than any other party in Scotland, and more than they have ever had, and they currently run the Scottish Government. They also have probably the most detailed, specific mandate for a referendum to have ever existed in all time, anywhere in the world. But Tommy Shepherd doesn’t think they have a mandate. Jeezo. Seriously FFS.

      Is that what happens when you start to get too cosy in London??

      No, ignore Mr. Shepherd – and the others at Westminster. The SNP should get on with it, and the sooner the better, before Scotland is trashed by England’s brexit racist stupidity.

      Oh and Jeremy Corbyn on his anti SNP tour of Scotland is a big fat fraud. The Labour party policy on brexit is the same as the Tories. Like two peas in a pod. Two unionist parties just the same, except Labour pretend they are different. Red and blue Tories. Dumb and dumber, you might say.

    46. Ghillie says:

      Andy-B 5.33 pm

      Tory MP Douglas Ross is now being inestigated by the SFA for his statements regarding ‘Gypsies and Travellers’.

      Probably under their Rule 73 which covers comments made publically that are of a discriminatory or offensive nature.

      Ross may face disiplinary action which can be a fine, suspension or expulsion from the SFA.

      He won’t like that. Maybe that would get his attention. Being made to apologise really does not seem to have hit the spot.

    47. ronnie anderson says:

      @ louis. b.argyll
      I take it you dont do much shopping prices are creeping up for the last couple of months I had a rise of 15p on a brown loaf , also weights of products have decreased 8 chicken thighs £3 now 7 thighs , god help the lower payed & those on the minimum benefits when Brexit price rises does bite .

    48. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ghillie: very much looking forward to this MP running the line at my team’s ground. I reserve the right to offer frank but fair advice.

      To think Moray once had a real MP who continually stood up for Scotland and had the PM quaking in her feck-me shoes.

      “The people have spoken, ” etc.

    49. budwiser says:

      Brexit is our ticket out of the UK.

    50. Robert Louis says:

      Ronnie anderson:

      You are totally correct regarding food prices. Once the real mess happens, and the economy goes down the toilet due to brexit lunacy, people on low wages or benefits will really really struggle, and may possibly starve. Literally.

      People talk about the damage to the economy from brexit as something that will affect ‘others’, or as something quite abstract, but it will hit everybody very, very hard. It just means we will ALL get very, very poor in a short period of time , no matter how much we earn. People will find out the hard way what it means to earn a good wage, with a good job, yet barely have enough money to survive on. Sadly, once that happens, it will be too late, and the damage will have been done. Their is no upside to brexit.

    51. Tinto Chiel says:

      MSP, obvs.

      Pure beelin’, soanumurr!

    52. Gary45% says:

      Ronnie@8.16
      A simple answer to the knuckle draggers.
      The day before the Brexit vote last year, 640 euros cost £503.00, today they cost £601.00, aye nothings changed!!!

      Wait until we leave,
      CHAOS

    53. Tinto Chiel says:

      “MSP, obvs.”

      Jeezo!

      *shakes head in despair*

      I’ve been under a lot of stress recently, honest.

    54. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TC –

      I didn’t fully click until earlier today that yon bigot is the referee dude.

      I hope one of your fellow spectators will provide him with full and frank advice in the form of a steaming hot pie right on the back of his napper.

    55. ronnie anderson says:

      ffs Jeffrey Archer baming up Ruthie on Bbc Edinburgh festival 17 , she could be the leader of the conservative party when she moves to westminster , thats the view of wan lier on another lier , but Ruthie wants to stay in Scotland & become the 1st Minister btw Ruthie cares for people lol even LOL of coarse he’s never met Ruthie ( he must have read it in a fairytale book somewhere ) .

    56. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ian B: that would be assault and I could not be a party to such a response 😉 .

      Had a mate who was a referee/linesman. At my ground he raised his flag to indicate the home team’s goal was actually offside. He was offered candid suggestions from the frothers regarding where he could put his flag.

      “I cannae, it’s full o’ whistles.”

      Ah, the banter……

    57. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood Ah wid uas ah Bell’s pie an hope it impacts oan his bellclapper ,( Ieave that fur those wie medical knowledge tae explain )

      Btw hiz anybody heard from Dr Morag , she’s no been oan fur a long while.

    58. starlaw says:

      From what Ive seen from Mr Corbyns tour of Scotland is Staged managed photo ops and bussed in crowd.

    59. Capella says:

      UPDATE on Heydrich
      Stuart McHardy has got back to me but, sadly, he doesn’t know the origin of the Heydrich quote. He found it on the internet.

      To follow up another reference, HS 4/79/324795, I went to the website of the Public Record Office in Kew for the papers of the SOE which are stored there.

      While the reference is indeed to the SOE papers dealing with Czechosovakia, they are not digitised. So I can’t read them online. I could pay £8.50 to get someone to go and look. Then more to get a copy. But without looking first, I have no idea whether these are the ones I want.

      Or, I could fly to London, book into a hotel, go to Kew and look myself.

      Or does anyone live in London and fancy spending a day at Kew?

      Still reading through the books. I was going to skim read but they turned out to be great reads so am taking ages to read them properly.

      Will update again if anything turns up.
      Extraordinary that such a widely quoted paragraph is nowhere to be found on the world wide web, the information super highway.

    60. Wee Jock says,
      Scottish government recalled along with claim of rights and written constitution:It looks to me like we are already independent.Just need sighned oot o that English union.

    61. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Gary 45% If I had managed to get a holiday in Spain ( late deal) I had intended to take Scottish notes & exchange them there but alas it wasn’t to be , roll on Nov & hopefully me & the Wife will get away fur a wee break .

    62. Fireproofjim says:

      Re Tommy Shepherd and the referendum date.
      I agree Nicola has a mandate for anytime in this parliamentary session, but perhaps she has polling data showing much less than 50% Yes..
      In that case it would be folly to go for a vote, we would not live to see a third referendum.
      I don’t know but will go with her judgement.

    63. Still Positive says:

      Ronnie is correct re food prices. Smaller portions, same price but not just in food. Toiletries are pretty much the same.

      If you look at the usual non-food items you buy, especially toiletries etc., you will find that branded items are mainly made in Europe.

      For example, I bought a box of Elastoplast a few months ago which was made in Spain by a German company.

    64. Ghillie says:

      Haven’t read all the comments yet!

      Was anyone else from here at the Thomas Muir Lecture last night? Good crowd, most seats in St Mary’s filled. No mean feat during the Fringe!

      It was an excellent night and my son and I met with many lovely Indy folk 🙂 There were good songs too! Thanks to everyone who helped and organised, to Murray Armstrong who wrote ‘The Liberty Tree’ and thank you to Jamie too =)

      Tommy Shepherd’s talk was really helpful, for me, instructive and reassuring. Entertaining and held the audience’s attention.

      He took time to go over the events of the last few years which answered alot of my questions. I am reassured that many of the conclusions I have come to independently are not far off the mark, epecially where Jeremy Corbyn is concerned.

      I heard first hand Tommy’s words about how he wondered we could move forward. I too shrank down at the thought of waiting even longer for the Indy Ref. I long for it so much!

      But he did make a very important caveat that that was based on how things are now and that that could all change in the space of a week! The Brexit negotiations would always have been very complicated and dificult at best, but are turning out a shambles and horror. All of this and the speed with which things are changing day to day is muddying the waters.

      I don’t think Tommy was wrong in his proposal, he is much closer to the action than any of us are, though I admit I don’t like it much.

      I do think we are going to have to look long and hard at where WE are in terms of readiness for this Indy Ref – the strength of support for Independence (which I DO feel is quietly rising inspite of trolling from the establishment) AND willingness of enough of us throughout Scotland to put in alot of seriously hard work, whatever we can each individualy offer to the cause.

      Because THIS time we WILL WIN.

    65. Petra says:

      A little snippet in the Sun today has steam coming out of my ears. Where would you start in tearing Corbyn and the Labour Party apart? I’m so scunnered with it all I can’t find the energy to do so right now. And on another subject Tommy Sheppard should get a grip of himself as too should all the Con / federal advocates on this site. The bottom line is that if everyone who visits this site made a point of ‘converting’ ONE other person we would be home and dry. Forget about delays and proffering plans to further divide and confuse people. Stick with it. Keep it simple by working your butt off in your workplace, local pub, community etc to win the next referendum … next year.

      Anyway back to the Sun. It reported ‘Jez: ‘3rd world’ life for Scots.’

      ‘Jeremy Corbyn yesterday claimed parts of Scotland had poverty worse than the ‘third world.’ The Labour leader made claims as he blasted the SNP for failing to use their powers to reverse austerity.

      Speaking in Glasgow’s East end during his week long Scots tour he said “This ward has a low life expectancy, lower in many cities than what we choose to call the third world. It’s not right and we deal with this by investing in decent housing. Housing is crucial to people’s life chances. The SNP has the powers to mitigate the effects of austerity, they choose not to.”

      But Nats hit back saying Mr Corbyn’s refusal to back staying in the EU single market after Brexit would have a disastrous impact on jobs, incomes and investments.’

    66. heedtracker says:

      Check it out. How many ways to say I love you Mr and Mrs Weir.

      Beeb Scotland gimps are an odd crew though. Why have they left off future Lady JK Rowling OBE and her million squid bung to Blair McSupersizeme, 2014? Its like she’s the yoon go to for all and everything yoon. Not this time.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41038311

    67. Robert Louis says:

      Fireproofjim at 905pm

      I understand what you say, but honestly the polls for indy are not likely to change WITHOUT a campaign and referendum. It won’t happen by magic.

      The notion that the Scotgov just shouldn’t bother holding a referendum until the polls show a majority in favour is just daft. Especially when the First Minister herself, rarely mentions independence when interviewed. Compare and contrast that with Alex Salmond, when he was FM, using independence in almost every statement or answer he gave. That crucial difference does matter.

      NON political anoraks, will barely notice what is happening until we DO have a referendum called. Hard to get people enthusiastic for a non existent referendum.

    68. Ghillie says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 8.26 and 8.44 pm 🙂

      I wonder if the footall crowd ever know who Mr Ross really is and that he has an extremely important day job he should be concentrating on. Or at least attending.

      Unpleasant wee man.

      Douglas Ross was an MSP and is now MP. So really needs to get his priorities straight.

      And his bigotted views seriously revised. (Wow, surprised I’m being so restrained)

    69. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ghillie: damn the fears, sir.

      I love reminding my peers at the fitba’ exactly who he is when he visits.

      Unfortunately, some of my season-ticket neighbours are boilerplate Lanarkshire Labour who obviously love Tories.

      Sorry, still trying to process that last sentence…….

      Good job I neither drink or swear.

      It’s a funny old game, Saint.

    70. Marcia says:

      Capella

      A friend of mine will be at Kew next month let me know the ref number and he will copy the file for you.

    71. Ghillie says:

      Robert Louis, I think they are keeping their tinder dry.

      I agree with Fireproofjim, I trust Nicola Sturgeon’s judgement and the decisions and actions she and the SNP have taken thus far.

      Keep the faith and keep the heid = )

      Alex Clark @ 6.54 pm Yes,I agree, mixed feelings on this too. A good measured response =)

      Louis b Argyl and Ronnie Anderson, disaray indeed! I’ve noticed the food prices creeping up for a wee while now, especially on necessary staples and not nearly so many competitve offers.

      It HAS begun. But could yet get much much worse.

      The Great British Glorious Empire Brexit is hurting us all but is hitting our poorest the hardest. Dispicable.

    72. dakk says:

      Robert Louis
      ‘Their is no upside to brexit.’

      Last night when dicussing with a middle class Tory bigot customer the implications of a juncked Sterling on the ability of ordinary people to afford a med sunshine holiday,he said
      ‘Good, it’ll keep out the riff raff’

      Snobs like he and Douglas Ross are becoming ever emboldened in flexing their superiority complex.

    73. GrahamB says:

      Douglas Ross – anyone of our readers who might find themselves at Celtic Park tomorrow afternoon should be able to ask more contextual questions of DR, he is scheduled to be running the line there.

    74. Conan the Librarian says:

      “All referees are bastards”.

      But some are more bastardy than others…

    75. ben madigan says:

      @ everybody that was talking about Brexit and food prices.

      The EU farming subsidies etc (however you might complain about them and think they should be tweaked ) were designed to maintain a safe and plentiful food supply for the people in the EU.

      Which they largely do.

      As others have warned – watch what happens to food availability and prices when the UK Brexits.
      It’s not going to be nice for an awful lot of families

    76. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson –

      Happily, I have no idea what a ‘bellclapper’ is. I could hazard a guess, but it would just get me in trouble and/or offend someone.

      It’s curious though, eh, how characters like Douglas ‘Hammer Of The Pikies’ Ross choose to make their way through this life? As TC points out, the lot of a Scottish fitba’ referee is not a happy one, and one can only wonder why a young man would want to spend his time performing roles which do not guarantee mass popularity: referee, Tory politician, MSP/MP, sneering Newsnicht guest etc.

      Ach well, ‘to all their own’ an aw that…

    77. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Fireproofjim at 9.05

      Completely wrong and dangerously wrong. We will never get above 50% until we start campaigning for independence and this will only start with any enthusiasm when we set a target for the next referendum.

      Remember we started the last campaign at 28%. But we have not said one word or done one thing about independence since 2014 and we have allowed the huge and growing enthusiasm to slowly fade away.

      A year ago the assumption was held by a majority, even NO voters, that independence was certainly coming and the eventual closeness of the result in 2014 had in itself made some change to YES. This is now gone.

      We have allowed it to go.

      Such is the total meltdown of coherent and sensible government at Westminster and collapse in respect for it we will never have a better chance and the sooner we move the better.

      If you wait for the “right time” in politics you will wait forever. There is no right time. There is only hard work and continuous propagation of the message.

      Everything is running for us. This will not last. The population will resign itself to whatever situation Brexit brings and come to terms with it and just plod on and we will have lost all advantage when that happens.

    78. Ghillie says:

      Tinto Chiel, I’m not a sir, I’m a mam 🙂

      I think Mr Ross mp/ref will be feeling the effects of Kharma pretty soon.

      Another pair of shoes I’m glad I’m not wearing!

      And that on top of Ruth telling fibs about her two nasty mouthed racist councillors speaking with Nil By Mouth! Her time as party leader seems to be spent shouting, avoiding her constituents, telling lies and squirming out of them.

      Yup, that lot really earn their keep.

    79. dakk says:

      I should have added,the client is also a big fan of the football club Gowglas Gerans or whatever they call themselves nowadays.

      Got smashing customers me,so a huv.

    80. Tinto Chiel says:

      Ghillie: I apologise for my clumsy clanger. Thought you were a ghillie/boy! That’s my story and I’m stickin’ tae it…..

      I hope he’s regretting becoming an MP. I think it shows complete disrespect to his office to be still officiating as an SFA linesman, but I doubt he has the self-awareness or respect for the Scottish Parliament to behave otherwise.

      I’m beginning to think it’s deliberate.

      Hell mend him.

    81. Capella says:

      @ Marcia – brilliant. I have no idea how big the file is. The ref. is HS 4/79/324795. What we are looking for is any record of Heydrich’s plans for the Germanisation of Bohemia Moravia.
      A secret speech on 2nd October 1941 is a possible source of the ideas.

      If anything turns up you could post it up here?

    82. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill (10.07) –

      Dunno if it’s maybe just the way you wrote it, or perhaps the way I read it, but you sound in that comment as though you’re getting a bit down about it all.

      Please don’t, eh?

      😉

    83. Marcia says:

      Capella

      He will take copies of the relevant file and send them to you on a disc. You can contact me on snpmarcia at yahoo co uk.

    84. yesindyref2 says:

      So they’re going to trial a convoy of driverless lorries, on a stretch of the M6 to Carlisle where nobody cares if people get killed.

      Yup, the benefits of the Union even reach down to the North of England and beyond.

    85. Capella says:

      @ Marcia – OK thx – will do.

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      So I have my bus pass, but it looks like my wife might not get hers until she’s 66, same as her pension.

    87. Tinto Chiel says:

      Graham B: “Contextual questions of DR.”

      Loved that.

      And him and his UJ boxers tae…….

    88. heedtracker says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      25 August, 2017 at 10:07 pm
      Fireproofjim at 9.05

      Completely wrong and dangerously wrong.

      Facebook alone is covered with Scottish photos of the Corbyn Scotland tour 2017. The reason they’re being posted is because they’re really really funny. Just like when Teresa came to Scotland, wherever JC goes, there’s almost no one there, just the usual press pack and aids.

      So chin up Dave. Wait til you see the whites of their eyes, and their The Vow 2:D

    89. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood I put 3 of my youth team through SFA Refereeing courses glad to say not one of them ended up Tories .

    90. Achnababan says:

      cheer up folks … some good news.

      My dear auld maw, a staunch loyalist and old Tory has decided that an independent Scotland in the EU is better than being out of Europe and in the UK. I think there will be many like her…..

    91. Iain Rough says:

      yesindyref2 driverless lorries! Why don’t they just put the goods on a train?

    92. Achnababan says:

      ooops i meant to write Royalist not loyalist…. not always the same thing….

    93. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson –

      I’m very glad to hear that, and not surprised at all.

      Mind you, it’ll be interesting to see what happens in Celtic Park tomorrow if yon belter is allowed to participate after all the palaver he’s caused – he’ll be going like the bellclappers up and down whatever line he’s been given, and mibbes more besides. If he flags for help, who’ll notice?

      (Being serious for a nanosecond – the SFA have a duty of care to all employees, aye? If so, they have to hook him. Now.)

    94. Fireproofjim says:

      Dave McE H.
      You don’t need to tell me about getting out and campaigning. I spent three years dragging my aged body up thousands of Edinburgh tenement stairs delivering thousands of leaflets and newsletters. (Did me good though).
      All I want to know is what the present poll figures look like. We took them from 28% to 45% in that period., and if they are still at 45% we will walk it in a new campaign, but if they have slumped it may need a Brexit disaster to become apparent before we are certain to win.
      It’s all a bit murky at the moment.

    95. Phronesis says:

      When will Scotland finally vote for its independence and the right to determine its future on its own terms without having to kowtow to a remote system of government that functions by the politics of exclusion (immigrants, gypsies, the feckless poor, pesky academic experts, EU remainers, the shirkers, the vile separatists- the list keeps growing in line with their bigotry and toxic discourse). UKOK is becoming such an unattractive entity –appearances are not deceptive in this case. No amount of layering can disguise the ugliness of a political system that shows willingness to reduce universal rights to a regional privilege.

      Not too long and Scotland will vote for its independence. Crucially the educational process established during Indyref1 will continue to evolve through public reasoning, participatory discussions, deliberative democracy- the ballot and vote is the end point of this much larger story.

    96. dakk says:

      Achnababan says:
      25 August, 2017 at 10:38 pm
      cheer up folks … some good news.

      Excellent,and I can add to that.

      Today,a former British Nationalist Indian born No voter intimated he wants another Indyref to vote Yes.

      His conversion is due (at least in part) to recently discovering that India accounted for 25% of world trade prior to British colonisation,but only 2% of world trade by end of Brit rule.

      Whatever.We’ll take it anyway.

    97. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 10.24

      NO. Everything is running for us but we do not have time. We have to create momentum.It doesn’t happen without cause or effort.

    98. galamcennalath says:

      The Rev Stu has gone affy quiet, here and on Twitter.

      Hope he’s just having a wee break and is OK.

    99. Capella says:

      Searches turn up some odd results. Here’s a 2011 article by Kenneth Roy asking why Scottish History is not taught in schools and the SNP proposal to include it in the curriculum.

      http://newsnet.scot/archive/why-are-we-so-afraid-of-our-own-past/

    100. colin alexander says:

      “But we have not said one word or done one thing about independence since 2014 and we have allowed the huge and growing enthusiasm to slowly fade away.We have allowed it to go.”

      We? You mean the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon is the one that cancelled any announcement on an indyref until 2018.

      They made a mandate commitment to indyref is Scotland is “BEING” dragged out the EU against her will. It is.

      What’s the SNP doing about it? Fighting an Indyref? Declaring UDI? Standing for Scottish sovereignty?

      Naw, negotiating the terms of surrender. So, far the UK Govt is sticking to nothing less than unconditional surrender.

      Makes sense. I would too, if I were the UK Govt dealing with a powerless Holyrood regional council with pretensions of being a real Govt.

    101. Dr Jim says:

      Alex Salmond says Scotlands social attitude survey has Independence at 47%
      That survey is put together by the sainted John Curtice so it must be right says Alex

      52% is the GO number

    102. Hamish100 says:

      CA

      … Getting fed up of the agent provocateur.

      The vote for independence will happen in due course not when CA wants it.

      Good try though.

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      asking why Scottish History is not taught in schools

      I find this very odd.

      In the 1960s in Ayrshire all my primary school history was Scottish – Vikings, Wallace, Bruce, Covenanters, Jacobites – superficial and sanitised, but a good Scottish overview for young minds.

      For my Ordinary Grade history I remember covering European history in terms of the time of exploration (Columbus etc) and the Renaissance. Then the Stuart dynasty as a Scottish then UK component. UK 1890-1939 which covered Liberal’s social and constitutional achievements, Ireland’s cessation, general strike. I think that was all the topics we covered, but seems a balanced selection.

      So, when did Scottish schools STOP teaching Scottish history?

      I sense a conspiracy theory coming on – could it have coincided with the rise of the SNP and oil?

    104. dakk says:

      galamcennalath says:
      25 August, 2017 at 11:25 pm
      The Rev Stu has gone affy quiet, here and on Twitter.

      Have images in my head of Stu in a room with a black hood over his head with Dougie Ross standing over him.

      Hopefully he is just gouching in a safe house somewhere.

    105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Phronesis @ 23:21,

      What Brexit seems to have done is make ugly politics socially acceptable again, at least to those inclined to dabble in that kind of thing. With a certain kind of Tory that is not too surprising, but sad to see, Labour now seem all too willing to abase themselves as well for what they assume are cheap votes.

      While continuing to look down on “nationalists” as unworthy and disreputable compared to their self-assumed high-mindedness.

      Hypocrisy is too weak a word for that.

    106. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill (11.24) –

      ‘We have to create momentum.’

      No, we don’t.

      The Tories, assisted by the BBC, are doing that for us 24/7.

    107. Graf Midgehunter says:

      @ CAPELLA
      @ Marcia

      “What we are looking for is any record of Heydrich’s plans for the Germanisation of Bohemia Moravia.
      A secret speech on 2nd October 1941 is a possible source of the ideas.”
      ————————

      Capella, the 2nd Oct. 41 is one of those links I sent you on the other thread a few days ago with a short explanation about what was in the speech. Nothing to come near the quote we’re looking for. 🙂

      It’s the Inaugral Speech he made 3 days after taking over the position of Reichsprotektor for Böhmen & Mähren on the personal order of A. Hitler. (A well known German comedian.)

      4 Feb. 42 was also done……!!!

    108. mr thms says:

      What is The Treaty of Lisbon?

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union

      “The Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (2007) is one of two primary Treaties of the European Union, alongside the Treaty on European Union (TEU). Originating as the Treaty of Rome, the TFEU forms the detailed basis of EU law, by setting out the scope of the EU’s authority to legislate and the principles of law in those areas where EU law operates.”

      It replaced the unratified

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe

      “The Treaty was signed on 29 October 2004 by representatives of the then 25 member states of the European Union.

      Following a period of reflection, the Treaty of Lisbon was created to replace the Constitutional Treaty. This contained many of the changes that were originally placed in the Constitutional Treaty but was formulated as amendments to the existing treaties. Signed on 13 December 2007, the Lisbon Treaty entered into force on 1 December 2009.”

      Importantly, Article 50 was included in the un-tatified treaty signed on 29 October 2004.

      The other day, Theresa May said “Parliament will make our laws, it is British judges who will interpret those laws and it will be the British Supreme Court that will be the ultimate arbiter of those laws.”

      The Supreme Court was established by Part 3 of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. It got Royal Assent on 24 March 2005, but did not start work until 1 October 2009.

      Interestingly, that was just two days before Ireland ratified the Treaty of Lisbon (The Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union) at the second attempt.

      So what can the above timeline be a pointer to?

      Some time ago I read the following report on the internal enlargement of the EU.

      http://www.ideasforeurope.eu/publication/the-internal-enlargement-of-the-european-union/

      It is an interesting read.

      The solution the internal enlargement of the EU, appears to be a simple amendment to the original Treaty of Rome.

      Article 50 could be the transitional arrangements needed to achieve it.

      Finally, from the same website..

      http://www.ideasforeurope.eu/conference/coppieters-awards-2016-to-honor-alex-salmond/

      “On 14th of December 2016, Centre Maurits Coppieters will honor Mr Alex Salmond (former First Minister of Scotland and current Scottish National Party Member of Parliament and International Affairs Spokesperson) as the first recipient of the Coppieters Awards at an official award ceremony in Brussels.

      With this award, Coppieters foundation will recognize Mr Salmond’s dedication and advocacy for Scotland’s right to redefine its political future among a European family of nations. His contribution to advancing Scotland’s democratic case for devolution and independence has re-energised the people of Scotland, Europe and beyond.

      He embodies a respect for cultural diversity, peace, democracy, cooperation and a united Europe, just like Maurits Coppieters himself. Through his leadership, he has helped transform Scotland into a fair, open and democratic society.”

      Congratulations Alex. Well deserved.

    109. yesindyref2 says:

      I see Average is brushing up his CV to apply for a job with Network Rail.

      https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/900610079636021248

      Oh dear.

    110. @yesindyref2

      Kevin Hague is entitled to have an opinion like you and me,

      but for the MSM to use his unqualified opinion on the byzantine machinations of State micro/macro accountancy and economics as though coming from someone with long and hard won accreditation,professorship`s,doctorates is abnormal,

      my thoughts are that they (MSM) can`t find a qualified economist/accountant (outside of the Fraser of Allander lot) that could possibly put their reputation on the line and agree with the GERS calculations,

      wonder how many Daily Record readers actually read past the headline and got to the end of his 800 word unqualified opinion, (est 0 > 4),

      the yoon are a bizarre lot.

    111. Capella says:

      @ Graf Midgehunter – thx and sorry I didn’t note you’d also read the 2nd Oct speech. Still got the reorganisation of Education to check out and the new Ministry for Public Enlightenment which controlled all media output. Could have been Orwell’s model for 1984.

    112. heedtracker says:

      the yoon are a bizarre lot.

      Does Kev even look the full ticket?

    113. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;

      Minister says Public Services Card is ‘not compulsory but is mandatory for services’;
      http://www.thejournal.ie/regina-doherty-public-services-card-3564489-Aug2017/

      The UK waves goodbye to civil liberties as Met commander admits he ‘doesn’t care’ why he’s arresting people;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/25/uk-waves-goodbye-civil-liberties-met-chief-admits-doesnt-care-hes-arresting-people/

      A ludicrous right-wing report reveals how wildly out of touch Tories are with young voters;
      https://www.thecanary.co/2017/08/25/ludicrous-right-wing-report-reveals-wildly-touch-tories-young-voters/

    114. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS;
      Tommy Sheppard’s landmark lecture on how we win the next referendum and what the SNP got wrong;
      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15497270.Tommy_Sheppard_s_landmark_lecture_on_how_we_win_the_next_referendum_and_what_the_SNP_got_wrong/

      Davidson ‘stitch-up’ row to leave Scotland an MEP short in Brussels;
      http://archive.is/ws3VO#selection-2149.0-2149.67

      Sturgeon and Chief Constable appear with disgraced courtroom liar;
      http://archive.is/9UbCl

    115. mike d says:

      Yesindyref2 4.21am. It’s the first one on the list I’m amazed at. Jeezo is there really no depths to which Scotland will not sink?.

    116. Robert Louis says:

      Heedtracker at 925pm,

      Indeed, Thank you very much, Mr and Mrs Weir for such generous support.

    117. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS

      £9million research project could come to Rutherglen;
      http://archive.is/ruBsE

      Nicola Sturgeon raises concerns over new BBC Scotland channel
      http://archive.is/v6snp

      Cash-strapped police face returning more than £20m to ministers;
      http://archive.is/1oiId

    118. Brian Powell says:

      Smallaxe

      “Sturgeon and Chief Constable appear with disgraced courtroom liar”. I’m wondering of Tom Gordon is guilty of defamation by innuendo with this.

      Innuendo is covered under the defamation laws.

    119. Robert Louis says:

      Dave McEwan Hill , Fireproofjim and others last night.

      I agree with Dave McH. If not now, then when? Their will NEVER be a ‘perfect’ time, with just perfect circumstances. Such things never happen in politics.

      No progress will be made until a referendum is called. I can’t see many people giving up their free time to actively campaign in the vain hope, that at some unspecified time, when things are deemed ‘just right’ a referendum ‘might’ be called. To suggest that is just wrong.

      The way I like to think about it is this, just imagine it was the Tories or Labour who were in the SNP’s position right now in Scotland, with more MP’s and MSP’s than all the other parties combined etc.. Does anybody seriously think they would be waiting before implementing their policies? No. Not for one second. They would be rampant. This is why I get frustrated at the SNP continually holding back. I know people don’t like to hear it, but it does come across as procrastination, and a kind of feartiness.

      Once brexit happens, the people of Scotland, who don’t follow politics as closely as we do, will likely not be grateful for the SNP, but actually pretty angry. From their perspective the Scottish Government will have let them down. I have already had people say this to me. They fully expected the Scotgov to hold a referendum to get independence to prevent brexit in Scotland, and the SNP have NOT delivered.

      I do understand all the points of view, but I cannot get away from these points I make above. Mark my words, when brexit takes place, support for the SNP will drop like a stone, because people will be angry and feel let down – big time.

      People in general do not follow politics so closely as people on here, they do not know all the ins and outs. They just ‘know’ that NS promised to stand against brexit since Scotland didn’t vote for it – holding an indy ref if necessary. That is what they saw her say on TV, that is what they remember. They will not thank her if it doesn’t happen.

      NS really, really needs to stop saying she is ‘asking to be included in talks on brexit’. We all know Westminster said NO, many, many times.

      Never forget most Scots (and probably most English) still do not want brexit. It is the most open goal, you could ever have in politics.

      So, I ask again, if not now, then when?

    120. Smallaxe says:

      Brian Powell says:
      Smallaxe

      “Sturgeon and Chief Constable appear with disgraced courtroom liar”. I’m wondering of Tom Gordon is guilty of defamation by innuendo with this.

      Innuendo is covered under the defamation laws.”

      I hope he is, Brian.

    121. Robert Louis says:

      Regarding the ‘courtroom liar’ smear from ‘The Herald’, the killer line of truth, as always is right at the end.

      Only if you read to the end of the story do you see this;

      “A Police Scotland spokesman said: “There were around 500 people at this public event which the Chief Constable attended.
      “The seating arrangements were a matter for the organisers of the event.”

      So their we have it. 500 people attended. It was a PUBLIC event. No story. The Media and its ability to fabricate ‘scandal’ never ceases to amaze me.

      http://archive.is/9UbCl

    122. Dek says:

      Courtroom liar Carmichael’s appearances do not attract the same attention from the pathetic ” Herald “.

    123. Lenny Hartley says:

      Greetings from the isle of Man, see loads of people saying we need to get a move on, has it not occurred to these people there may be a reason why a referendum is on the back burner just now? Perhaps the non political anaracks are pretty scunnered with Politics just now and are fed up to the back teeth with elections and referendums. Maybe the SNP know this and are biding their time and will play their cards when the time is right.
      Be patient there are a lot of clever people who know what their doing working on this. I cannot see them not having a referendum this Parliament , it will happen.

    124. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Louis,

      Yes, that should be actionable, and that mysterious SNP insider makes an appearance again and again and again, the implication of course that there is discord within the party.

    125. louis.b.argyll says:

      Many are asking..
      .’So, I ask again, if not now, then when?’

      Er, when we level out the playing field.

      ..and reduced the effectiveness of propohanda..

      When we can campaign on Scotland’s merits.

      Our powder is dry, theirs is lumpy.

      Our honesty will prevail, theirs honesty is manufactured in cahoots with the ALL-TORY-CONTROLLED-MEDIA.

      When we can ignore LIES, instead of continually deflecting dishonest blows.

      We can only win a fair fight against a weaponised cheat.

      The UK cheats. The history of the world is the evidence.

      The British Empire invented the same political corruption we see today.

      They cheat and they lie and create legal systems to hide any historical embarrassment.

    126. Dr Jim says:

      The transition from UK to Scottish Independence will be as frictionless as possible
      Scotxit means Scotxit and we’ll make it a Blue and White one

      All Scotlands laws will be made in Scotland and no longer subject to the undemocratic unelected gnomes of the House of Lords and London bureaucrats
      Well take back control of our borders to regulate Inglish immigrants to a reasonable level
      Well stop paying money to an overblown system which doesn’t benefit Scotland and use that money to build even more houses than we already build and give the extra money to our NHS
      Well take back control of Scotlands oil and properly use it for the benefit of Scotland

      Now if we’d had a campaign like that for independence from Inglind they’d have accused us of narrow Nationalism, racism and protectionism and hatred of the Inglish

      Yet Inglind thinks when they say it that’s all good

      One more wee thing the Inglish parliament is planning to remove voting rights for EU citizens who haven’t been resident for a yet to be determined amount of time post Brexit, if they get away with that which they probably will
      Scotland will lose approximately 180,000 votes for YES
      That being the case Scotland must look at the voting franchise in the same system of fairness for immigrants from Inglind

      Whilst that of course is controversial and is not what has been proposed before, if Inglind plays political games with the voting system Scotland must counter with the same rules
      It would actually exclude a couple of my own relatives from voting as they are coming to Scotland post the apocalypse but they’ve said they would have the good manners not to intervene in Scotlands constitutional affairs by voting at all so wouldn’t mind

      I thought that was fair and very nice of them

    127. Smallaxe says:

      ‘A strange line of questioning’ Jeremy Corbyn snaps at BBC reporter in car crash interview;
      http://archive.is/qDf54

    128. Legerwood says:

      galamcennalath says:
      25 August, 2017 at 11:54 pm
      Capella says:

      asking why Scottish History is not taught in schools

      I find this very odd.

      ……………………..

      Schools never stopped teaching Scottish history. What changed over time was the way it was taught and the prominence it was given.

      This has again changed with the advent of Curriculum for Excellence and plans for a specific Scottish studies course which was in the 2011 SNP manifesto in 2011 if I remember correctly. This couse covered literature etc as well as history. As you can imagine there was lots of going and fro-ing in the press about this plan but it did have broad academic support.

      This is a link to a resource site for teachers on the University of Glasgow web site. It shows some of the topics covered

      http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/humanities/research/historyresearch/historyinschools/

      Scots studies ‘not brainwashing’, says SNP minister – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15093213

    129. louis.b.argyll says:

      Apart from Lizzie driving an ambulance for the cameras, and at a push Diana vs land-line media circus, has the ‘British’ Royal family EVER been a force for good?

    130. louis.b.argyll says:

      Er, ‘land-mine’.

    131. Smallaxe says:

      louis.b.argyll says:

      “has the ‘British’ Royal family EVER been a force for good?”

      Have a look at this, louis, and see what you think. 🙂
      https://www.republic.org.uk/

    132. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Lenny Hartley @ 09:18,

      There is a lot of sense in what you say. To try to push a referendum on people who are conflicted about the results of indyref and EUref would likely just push them into the NO camp.

      It was Rude Gal, Me-too Kez and Wee Willie who pushed this line for all it was worth in the last UKGE, and they believe it did them some good. In the short term, maybe it did, as the results of that election would seem to indicate.

      But that’s not the whole story. You have to offer people hope of a way forward. The apparent lack of that from the SNP has unsettled people.

      Just one example: Nicola was apparently very happy to appear before the LGBT event the other day, whereas the whole party seemed to be more than a little sniffy about the Big Indy march in Glasgow back at the beginning of the summer. The only MSP present was Sandra White. Shurely shumthing wrong there?

      I don’t believe that an all-out campaign is the right way forward at the moment, but what is needed is a low-level effort to keep placing in people’s minds the absurdities of the course that the Tory-Lab UK is bent on, and bent on dragging us down with them regardless.

      I think the ideal campaign right now would be a series of cartoons such as the ones that Chris Cairns has been doing with great effect here, and getting people like you and me to make a bunch of copies each on their own printers, and deliver them around their own neighbourhoods.

      Not screeds of close-printed text or party-political leaflets that will go straight into the waste unread, but something light that will make people laugh yet leave a lingering message behind that will begin to resonate, so that when the crunch comes, people are primed to respond positively for indy.

    133. Ken500 says:

      Alex Salmond on Parliamentary Channel

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      On the one hand you have people of which I have been one up till now, saying have faith in Sturgeon and the SNP, they know what they’re doing, Sturgeon has said they will soon be making the case for Independence, wait and see, it will happen.

      On the other you have people who see nothing happening, and the possibility of nothing happening either, with talk from some from the SNP of not having an Indy Ref until after the next Holyrood elections which, frankly, the SNP are likely to lose. I’m starting to feel that way myself, but am trying to restrain myself, but more and more not very successfully. Summer is nearly over, and still no “benefits of independence” campaign.

      There’s an SNP Growth Commission headed by Andrew Wilson which some, well, me, thought might come out with a currency and central bank plan. Nothing from them so far. There’s been a curious lack of communication from the SNP about Independence. Are they “keeping their powder dry” or putting Indy on the back burner and putting political careers first? Getting introverted about losing 21 MPs, their short money, the funds to the party, status at Westminster, and what should the party do to make it more appealing. To whom, Indy supporters, potential Indy supporters – or others?

      And there’s been reports that there’s nothing to do with Independence on the SNP Conference agenda. Are the SNP pushing Independence out into the long grass?

      There is a potential convergence for both “camps”. Holyrood resits on Monday the 4th September, and we’ve seen reports of Sturgeon going to come out fighting. Well fine, for what? Is there an SNP plan ready to be launched very soon now, to put the case for Independence? Will the Growth Commission finally come out with some report that puts the case for Indy in terms of currency and economy? Will the SNP Conference be a pleasant surprise and a big forward push for Indy, or all about party, party, party, jobsworth politicians?

      By the end of the SNP Conference I think we will know where we are, and can make our judgements then.

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 13:38:

      [SNP] Getting introverted about losing 21 MPs, their short money, the funds to the party, status at Westminster, …

      There’s the nub o’t. The same slightly uneasy feeling I get about their reaction.

      The SNP should be firmly rooted in Holyrood, and committed to getting out of WM as soon as possible, not mourning a moderate reduction while remaining the third largest party presence there. If the party had poor representation in WM it would be a shame, but WM is a travesty anyway for the Scots, and FPTP elections are so fickle that the party can have disproportionate success, spectacularly so in 2015 and somewhat less so (but still) this year, and possibly on another occasion – if we still have to endure any such – disproportionate failure.

      All of which need signify little for support for the party at home, or indeed support for independence in general. What matters more is confidence, and the successful projection of confidence.

    136. Footsoldier says:

      The SNP is wasting time as the clock ticks. The army’s mental state (the members) is withering and will need re-grouping and re-training and building up. I can see what’s going on and I’ve been a member for over 50 years.

      Whether there is a master plan or not, the ground troops are fighting a battle with no ammo and pot shots are being taken by the opposing forces who are encircling us. Three wheels on my wagon …..

    137. Foonurt says:

      Dave McEwan Hill – yull no dae iz ah sniper. Yurr awfae nervy. Haud yurr hoarses.

      Ah luk, Scoattish Independence cumin ower yoan brae, lik thoan Cloase Encoonturrs spaceship.

      In yurr dreams. Naw, uv ah guid sicht ae it.

      Alex Salmond sid, foartae-seevin per cent. Soonz guid, tae me.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      I don’t live in Quebec and don;t know the rights and wrongs of Independence of them, but they had two referendums, One in 1980 40.4% YES, 59.6% NO. And 1995 49.4% YES, 50.6% No.

      The first near double the winning margin for NO than ours, the second very close. But it’s the gap between the two – 15 years. And 17 years has passed – no 3rd referendum. Why? Perhaps the gap between their Ref 1 and Ref 2 was too large, givng time for support that had been there, to drop away and get totally frustrated – maybe even people moving. No idea.

      Then there’s the Irish Lisbon Treaty referendums. First in 2008, second in 2009 – 1 year apart – totally different result. Why? Just 1 year clearly wasn’t too short a time to leave it! I think if the SNP leave it too long people will lose interest, activists will die of boredom, or just die.

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/

    139. yesindyref2 says:

      My reaction to my own posting, by the way, is that I don’t want Indy Ref 2 some time after 2021 even if there is a pro-Indy Government which is looking increasingly a problem. I don’t want Indy Ref 2 in March 2020 say, after the UK has left the EU with NO transitional period and Scotland is oot. And I don’t want it in March 2019 when it’s a scamble, we might be in or out of the EU along with the UK and have a mad scramble of being out of the single market and customs union, and then getting back in again.

      I want it fsking NOW, or more realistically in March 2018. September 2018 at the latest.

      And it will be a YES.

    140. Rock says:

      colin alexander,

      “This is under the CURRENT system.”

      Rock (17th April 2016 – Reforming your principles):

      “Electoral Reform Society,

      Electoral Commission,

      Information Commissioner,

      All “regulators”,

      the Scottish Justice system.

      They are all rotten to the core.”

    141. Breeks says:

      Robert Louis says:
      26 August, 2017 at 8:47 am
      Dave McEwan Hill , Fireproofjim and others last night.

      “I agree with Dave McH. If not now, then when? Their will NEVER be a ‘perfect’ time, with just perfect circumstances. Such things never happen in politics….”

      I kinda hope that up and down the country there are SNP activists who are up to speed on sovereign issues having discussions and productive arguments on strategy, and making ready for the SNP’s Autumn conference. I also hope Nicola Sturgeon is one of them.

      If there isn’t a big change in tempo, a bit more fightin’ talk, and some important ring fencing of sovereign issues, (namely the sovereign decision to stay in Europe), then I’m in agreement with what is said above. The future is bleak.

      However, I also believe the issue of Scottish sovereignty is a great leveller. By that, I mean even if BBC Unionism and their rampant propaganda was stealing the agenda (again), and giving momentum towards a NO vote, (again), Scotland’s sovereignty, properly understood and empowered, has the potent capacity to redefine the whole debate, and scythe through whole chapters of BritNat propaganda and disinformation. Neither Westminster, UK law, nor BBC propaganda can strip the Scottish people of their sovereign birthright. Let them try, watch them fail.

      I have confidence in the principle of sovereignty. I have confidence that these seminal issues will be properly understood by the electorate before any “snap” referendum, and will be an effective counterbalance against the Unionist propaganda. (Are we calling it a snap referendum yet?), and I also have confidence the SNP’s heart is in the right place.

      But what does trouble me is how the SNP is still not coming across as entirely surefooted and word perfect on the significance of this sovereignty. It greatly vexes me.

      Petra mentioned a Commission or something looking into Scotland’s constitutional issues, which is great, except that it reads like its a workshop devising a new constitution for a new Nation of Scotland. What it doesn’t come across as is a grave, draconian, humourless affirmation that Scotland’s ancient constitutional sovereignty is sacred, untouchable, and is, and properly always has been, beyond the reach of Westminster.

      The scariest comments I see are SNP spokespeople who are resigned to Scotland exiting Europe with Brexit. It scares me, not because they have given up on staying in Europe when I haven’t, but because they have given up on the principle that Scotland’s Remain majority in 2016 was the nation’s democratic sovereign expression of choice, and both Westminster AND Holyrood should consider themselves bound by the sovereign choice of Scotland’s people.

      If Brexit means Brexit for Theresa May, then Remain means Remain in Scotland; the unambiguous decision delivered by the people with the sovereignty.

      We, the people of Scotland, ARE sovereign. Running in parallel with the debates about the pros and cons of Indy, and the inevitable debunking of UKOK propaganda, what Scotland really needs is a short, sharp, summary education about its own sovereignty. If, or let’s hope when, that level of understanding takes root in the Nation’s psyche, THEN our sovereignty becomes a real game changer.

      Am I confident Brexit will make Yessers of us all? No, frankly I’m not. Brexit as an issue is dreadfully propaganda sensitive. If the BBC swears Brexit isn’t a catastrophe, then people will believe it, even if there are riots in the streets, hyperinflation and food shortages in their shopping basket. It won’t be Brexit at fault. Instead, they’ll cut down iron railings and send in pots and pans as soon as Jackie Bird tells them we need more Spitfires.

      But no amount of BBC propaganda or spin can alter the essential truth and legitimacy of Scotland’s sovereignty. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me for 307 years, shame on all of us. But I won’t be fooled any more. The Union is unlawful and incompetent, and no amount of spin can change it.

    142. Sarah says:

      @Breeks 7.12 p.m.

      A heartfelt “Hear, hear” to your post. But we are sovereign now – if we have to wait to educate everybody about it and get their agreement, how long will that be?

      What about the Scottish Government taking the issue with especial reference to the Remain vote to the Courts and/or UN right now?

    143. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17:07,

      Possibly part of the reason for no further moves toward independence in Quebec is because unlike us, in our superdooperbestestfederalisticestever situation, the people there have since received sufficiently greater genuine autonomy to satisfy enough of them, on top of the greater existing degree that Canadian provinces all enjoy anyway. So the “better together” meme may actually work there, at least for a sufficient number of people.

      The same applies, incidentally, in Belgium, which has over recent years has developed significant degrees of autonomy within a truly federal setup that has probably kept the country together.

      As for us here in the UK – snowball’s chance. It’s a totally centralised state or it’s nothing.

      As Breeks says, Brexit is our best chance for indy ever. There will always be some who have bought the anti-EU propaganda line wholesale, but there seems to be too much hesitance on the part of the SNP over such folk.

      From now on the SNP should stick to their guns on staying in the EU out of principle, and the facts will be along soon enough to justify their standpoint. Even English Labour is now beginning to turn, though still suffering from a surfeit of wishful thinking over freedom of movement.

      Whatever the timescale, it damn well better be indyref2 before we are out and the UK disenfranchises all our indy-supporting EU residents.

    144. Chick McGregor says:

      More on trade.

      The Export Statistics Scotland (ESS) report is the only measure of Scottish exports available.

      In regard to Scottish exports which go through England.

      If the final destination is recorded by the exporter at outset as being outside the UK, then those goods should get counted as Scottish exports regardless of which English port is used.

      However, if they are simply recorded as exports to England by the exporter but are then ‘moved on’ elsewhere, this does not get counted as Scottish exports and may indeed be counted as English exports to wherever the final destination was.

      It is unknown how much of this goes on.

      A similar ‘Rotterdam Effect’ or ‘England Effect’ (‘Rotherham Effect ) ) goes on for imports to Scotland.

      Not sure if the humble Tesco’s brand tin of baked beans is counted as an export from England to Scotland or not but it is a simple Googling task to affirm that they are made from American beans, processed in Italy and shipped to the UK at a rate of about a million cans per day. However they are still sold as Tesco’s ‘own’ brand.

      In short, it is not really currently possible to say how much of Scottish exports to England end up elsewhere OR how many of ‘England’s’ exports to Scotland came from elsewhere.

      We know there must be some of both going on and we may surmise that the ‘England Effect’ must be at least as big as the ‘Rotterdam Effect’ but without hard data that must remain conjecture.

      However, at the end of the day, although it would be nice to know how many of Scotland’s exports to England went elsewhere and how many imports from ‘England’ came from elsewhere, that is unlikely to change the overall picture of Scotland’s trade balance namely per se, namely total exports – total imports.

      But, and this is the key point coming up, even if we accept the HMRC figures (which do not include oil) which shows we have a surplus with the rest of the World outside the UK of £2 billion. Even if we accept the proposition that Scotland is a member of a very exclusive club in being one of the very few nations on the planet which has a trade deficit with England (of about £5 billion) then the net overall Trade Deficit for Scotland is only around £3 billion.

      What does that £3 billion mean? Well it is about 3 or 4 % of Scotland’s exports depending on whether oil is included or not.

      Compare to England’s trade deficit, which at about £120 billion, is about a third of their exports.

      In a European context Scotland is in a perfectly normal position perhaps with a slight ‘could do better’ comment but OTOH England is by comparison an absolute trade balance disaster area, far worse, pro rata, than any other developed nation.

      Sometimes you hear people saying ‘But most countries have a trade deficit, don’t they?’ That is utter tosh. Most EU countries run a trade surplus and Eurozone overall runs a trade surplus of hundreds of billions in dollar or euro terms.

      Another thing you hear is, ‘Trade balance is irrelevant to how wealthy an economy is.’ A glance at the graph of GDP PPP Per capita v Trade Balance soon gives the lie to that.

      True, on that graph, the UK GDP per capita is miles off the main sequence, being way higher than it should be, it is very anomalous. But that is entirely down to the £150 billion or so ‘earned’ by the financial scams of various kind centered on London and so far inexplicably tolerated by the rest of the World but which are unlikely to survive Brexit intact.



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