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Wings Over Scotland


From the archives #12

Posted on January 07, 2020 by

Over the last few days, for want of anything more interesting happening in Scottish politics, we’ve been reviewing some of the entertainingly fluid criteria by which Unionist politicians used to assert that Scotland could supposedly achieve independence. But we hadn’t seen this one before:

A view apparently “almost universally shared among English Tory backbenchers” back in the late 1980s was that independence could be won by the SNP securing a majority of Scottish MPs at not one but two successive UK general elections.

Given that that line has now been crossed in THREE Westminster elections in a row, we’re all agog to find where Boris Johnson will move the goalposts to in his keenly-awaited response to the Scottish Government’s second Section 30 request, which he’s due to deliver any minute now.

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One_Scot

I’m gonna say he won’t reply.

winifred mccartney

I too think he will let this lie as long as he possibly can because he knows they have no valid answer against allowing it – so if in doubt say naught. Possibly even start throwing money at Scotland and the North to keep them on side. We must not be bought off.

Gary45%

“strength and Security of the Union”
Aye that will be Scotland paying for all the UKs strength and Security, because as we all know they need us more than we need them.

Mist001

I await with baited breath. He might surprise everyone and say ‘Ah fuck it, go ahead and do what you want’.

But probably not.

callmedave

But…but! WM says via my ‘The National’

“The PM will reply in due course” 🙂

Return to sender address unknown (Elvis)

PS:
Big Brian on shortbread radio earlier bemoaning the lack of a Scottish budget all due to the delay in WM he says should have been November last year then promised for January now postponed till middle of March.
I don’t think Brian at auntie wie a kilt was genuinely sorry for our Derek Mackay though, who cant get his calculator out yet and only to be probably bushwhacked by the Green’s Patrick Harvey demanding more with menaces. 🙁

So it goes!

Robert J. Sutherland

Yes, juicy reminders like this from the glory days of Cartel dominance provide very salient lessons in exactly how we are being treated these days. “Goalpost-moving” should be a viral meme.

Just a pity that the usual media seem to have the memory-span of a gnat. But then they have other interests to defend.

Keep this up, Stu.

Robert J. Sutherland

Mist001 @ 12:32,

Pedants’ corner: it’s “bated breath”. As in “abate”, and nothing to do with fishing.

Davie Oga

No reply to the request in March 2017 seemed to do the trick last time.

Odds on new section 30 response from UK government

No reply pretend it doesn’t exist 4/7

Knock back by media using spurious once in a generation arguments and a majority of people in Scotland voted for unionist parties etc. 6/4

Go on and good luck to you. England is so exceptional that it doesn’t need natural resources. Oil is so passé. 100/1

Odds on Scotgov response to the rejection of Sec 30 request

Announce a referendum date and aggressively prepare Scotland’s people, institutions, and international partners for independence. 10/1

Take any and all possible legal steps in order to establish Scottish sovereignty and the inherent right to self determination. 2/1

Fight Holyrood 2021 on the diamond international standard quintuple mandate and no your daughter is a liar and a bigot when she says there was a man walking around the women’s changeroom at the Eastwood baths with his tadger hanging out. 1/3

Camy

But surely it’s up to the badgers to move the goalposts?

Capella

“slightly unwise”. Understatement of the century.

Effijy

Boris is going to repeat his made up statement that Scotland had their once in a generation referendum and no is not the time.

He needs to be reminded that Scots are Sovereign, not Westminster and certainly not him.

Scotland has nothing in its constitution signing off anything with regards once in a generation.

He also needs reminded that his DUP Pals that has has constantly bribed before duping them with the No Border down the North Sea
tale have listed 7 years as a generation within their own legislation. That will do fine for Scotland too.

In order to keep Bojo and Westminster safe we need to get all the nuclear junk in Scotland down to the Thames forthwith.
I’d also lie to offer Scotland as a safe haven particularly to Londoners who will inevitably face the reprisals from Iran.

A little reminder of all the big Tory Hitters all demanding that with the current state of voting in Scotland they must hold the right to independence.

Lastly, we had better take that short cut to the European Courts to confirm to England does not own Scotland and they cannot dispel our basic human rights to be free.
h

Mist001

@ Robert J. Sutherland

With all due respect, you know absolutely nothing about my breath.

🙂

Dr Jim

In my constituency the people voted overwhelmingly for Brexit by a massive 62% and a mandate like that cannot be ingnored by any government

Said the Conservative MP from Bishop Auckland on TV

For those of you who don’t know, Bishop Auckland is a wee place in the North East of England in South Durham with a population of 24,262 and a working age population of 15,326 and a total catchement area of 150,000

5.5 million population in Scotland were outvoted and out imortantised by a town in England who voted the opposite way to Scotland and their word must be done

That’s how important Scotland is to England, still happy are we?

Colin Alexander

Read Peterabell.scot regarding BJ’s response in due course.

28 days is a commonly used period of time allowed for responses in formal business matters. However, there was no 28 day time limit specified in the FM’s request for a s30 order.

But 28 days will have expired on 16 January 2020.

Question:

If the SNP are prepared to wait forever, how much longer are you prepared to wait on the SNP?

Republicofscotland

From the Rev’s Twitter feed.

Looks like UK ministers will be able to act in devolved areas in the near future.

If we don’t exit this union soon, we never will.

“As a result, the powers granted to UK ministers in the Withdrawal Agreement Bill extend to the whole of the UK and relate to both reserved and devolved matters.”

“Consequently, the powers allow UK ministers, acting alone, to make provision in devolved policy areas.”

link to archive.ph

Republicofscotland

Meanwhile a small EU nation Estonia, with a population of just 1.5 million people, now has a seat on the UN Security Council.

We can only dream.

jfngw

The excuse now, is it’s not how modern democracy works, that is of course bollocks. The method used to leave the union should be the same as how we entered it, the majority of elected representatives.

I was content to go for a referendum as Holyrood uses a quasi-proportional system. But if Holyrood is to be over ruled by WM we must then fall back on the WM system. The SNP should be preparing a declaration of independence for the 31st Jan, the day WM brakes Scotland’s peoples sovereignty.

Ian Brotherhood

@Davie Oga (12.42) –

That made me LOL.

Cheers.

😉

jfngw

I vote SNP for independence, I’m not interested in it being the best mitigating government, it’s just a plan to be forever chasing Westminster. And Westminster plan to over rule Holyrood whenever it feel like it in the future, they don’t want good government they want compliance and subservience.

It was planned as a talking shop to fob off the Scots into thinking they had some self control, the Tories intend to make sure this is all it is.

If there is no action from the SNP soon it will be time to look for an alternative in the hope that a more radical party can emerge.

Stoker

Quite amusing to see the “some arsehole said” approach being used way back then. 🙂

[…] Wings Over Scotland From the archives #12 Over the last few days, for want of anything more interesting happening in Scottish […]

Mist001

Something which I’ve just noticed about this forum and which is interesting to me is that virtually everybody knows what the Tories/Westminster are doing but not one single person knows what the SNP is doing!

If anybody’s doing any ‘fobbing off’ then it’s the SNP. It’s only 24 days until Scotland is dragged out of the EU against its will and Blackford says that the SNP won’t allow that to happen.

Does anybody know what the SNP is actually doing?

We all know what the Tories are doing.

jfngw

@Mist001

We can only hope the SNP know what they are doing, at this time we seem to have little alternative than hope they have as us spouting off on social media will have no impact, anywhere.

If the SNP prove to be a toothless party then we will probably have to build an alternative from the ground up, I then see independence moving outside my timeline.

sassenach

Mist001

Yes, I think that ‘squeaky bum time’ for you is rapidly approaching.

Keep trying though, it’s all you have left!

wull

RepublicofScotland @ 1.26. If UK Ministers try to overrule decisions legitimately taken at Holyrood (or in any of other devolved Assembly, for that matter) I think the outcry will be enormous. And not just from natural independence supporters.

I may be wrong, but I think it will have the complete counter-effect from what these UK Ministers were intending.

In my view, it will tip virtually all the waverers into the pro-independence camp. Even quite a few previously firm ‘No’ voters will start to seriously re-consider their position. It doesn’t take many of these to change sides and we are well on our way.

This will be especially the case if, as seems almost certain, they will try to overrule Holyrood on an issue which Tories oppose but which has widespread general support among the Scottish population. I can’t think of any existing Tory policy, on virtually any subject, which is going to be more popular with the generality of Scots than policies put through by Holyrood.

I don’t want to give the opposition any fodder, but there could be one exception. What would happen if the SNP try to ramrod their GRA legislation through Holyrood, while this was against the general view of a vast majority of Scots, and the Westminster government overruled it? In that scenario, they would thereby supporting the vast majority of Scots against a legislature and an executive at Holyrood which, on this particular issue, might be accused of having lost touch with their own people. I am not sure what the reaction might be in that case, although even then some who do not support GRA would still take umbrage at such interference.

That, in any event, would be a ‘worst case scenario’. I don’t actually expect it to arise. Even if it did, and the Tory government at Westminster seemed to succeed with that particular issue, they would soon try again with something nearer to their hearts and more inimical to the vast majority of Scots. Emboldened by apparent success, they would then put their big feet right in it. It wouldn’t take them long to let their overweening pride catch them out, leading them to impose themselves on Scots with an agenda that Scots really don’t like, and never voted for.

At that point, going too far, and becoming the cause of their own destruction, they won’t know what is going to hit them.

The minute Tory Minisiterial diktat directly overrules any of the powers devolved in the devolution settlement on any major issue, Westminster will have lost the plot altogether. The pro-independence barometer will rocket, the fire will spread very quickly, and the momentum will be unstoppable. Too late will the Westminster Tory Government (and its Minister for the Union) realise that it has set fire to its own house, and blown up its own ‘precious Union’ once and for always.

BoJo will go down in history as having succeeded where Guy Fawkes (another despiser of Scotland, by the way) failed. As Minister for the Union he will have got the Jo(b) done, by Blowing the house of cards that was the Union down, with one big breath.

I can just imagine him wearing his party hat, his paper crown with Happy Birthday written on it, as all the candles succumb to the enormous power of a single giant breath on his part. The spin will be that this is what he promised his English voters, that they would finally be able to celebrate with him the Birth-day of England’s Independence. (Independence from the shackles of everyone else in the whole of the rest of the world, that is – except the USA – and from common sense as well).

‘I got the job done; I set England free. Let the celebrations commence …’

‘Fine by me, BlowJo. So be it …’

Capella

What is the SNP doing?
Well here’s the comprehensive case for a second independence referendum sent to Boris Johnston on the 19th December. It’s very detailed and there are 65 end notes.

Happy reading.

link to gov.scot

Clinton

I suspect that the goalposts have simply never existed.

I vaguely remember a long time ago Willie MacRae telling a story at an SNP meeting about someone (I did say it was a vague memory) asking Denis Healey about what would be required for Scotland to achieve independence.

“A majority of MPs?” “No.”
“A majority of MPs at 2 elections?” “No.”
“Every single MP?” “No.”
“Every single person in Scotland voting SNP?” “Fuck off – it’s still no!”

David Whannel

He knew he’d win an election, held one.

He knows he’ll lose the referendum, will deny one.

We have them on the back foot and need to attack savagely.

#indyref2 must now be taken offline, #YesBecause posters and banners must be plastered on every car, phone box, bingo hall, bus, community centre, bowling club, social club, masonic lodge, golf club and lamp post in Scotland.

Posters of every convicted Westminster party paedophile (ukdatabase.net) and their news clippings must be strewn across our estates and throughout suburbia.

20% of No’s have already switched to Yes, before Brexit, before any posters.

Robert J. Sutherland

Mist001 @ 13:13,

Oh dear, it’s that bad, is it? =laugh=

Golfnut

@ Wull.

Johnson has already talked about levelling up, and by that I don’t think he meant bringing England up to Scotland’s standards, SNHS( including free prescriptions) Tuition fees, Police, Firebrigade, fishing, fracking etc, it will include public sector pay and pension scales. Those measures will be separate to slashing Scotland’s pocket money under the guise of giving money to the Scotland office. Doing things differently, aye right.

Robert J. Sutherland

I think that the negativity of UKGov is all part of the SNP’s reckoning, actually, even if the apparent passivity is grating to the likes of us.

All this arrogant but increasingly-desperate nay-saying and goalpost-moving by the Tories is beginning to back-fire, as we saw from the election results, and we are surely not alone in being acutely aware that the month’s end is truly a watershed moment. If it’s getting to us, it’s surely getting through to others less committed also. Which is good provided the opportunity is exploited for all it’s worth and not casually squandered.

That doesn’t deflect from the fact that the situation does rather put the spotlight on the expanded SNP contingent in WM, although for my money the real action should still come from the SG. A protest walkout of HoC by the SNP at month’s end might be worth considering.

Mist001

How about if the SNP broke their silence and shouted from the rooftops to remind everyone that at the end of the month, Scotland will be dragged out of the EU against it’s will?

Because there seems to be a complacency settling in. Ask the average person in the street if they know about this and the chances are they’ll have forgotten all about it.

Isn’t there any way that we can make the SNP a bit more fucking pro-active in all this?

Because everything I’ve seen over the past three years from the SNP has been reactive.

Clapper57

I am sure Dominic Cummings will be devising some ‘strategy’ ….

The SNP winning the election in Scotland will be seen by Tories as a mere inconvenience in the context of most the UKnotOK ( mainly England) ‘gifting/lending’ the Tories their vote (aye right a votes a vote) the only mandate that will be heralded and honoured will be the one for Brexit.

Meanwhile …. I have read that Gordon Brown is set to speak at a staunchly pro-Union jaunt in NEWCASTLE in ANOTHER anti Indy Ref rally…an intervention for ‘local’ people (Geordies und other English ‘guests’ and proud Scot Buts immigrants who travelled there When the Boat Came In ) not for you Jocks currently in Scotland…but very much about you Jocks….actually seems fitting to have Unionist rally in…England…since not much appetite..as in majority…for Union in Scotland …Lol

He will be the headline guest at a conference organised by the These Islands group (Cult), set up by the Pro Union fanatic (Cult Guru) the go to guy for skewed graphs and skewed economics Union style obvs…… Brown’s Pedigree Chum Kevin Hague.

If Brown and Hague think that ‘Now is the Time’ for another one of his interventions….then their cause is indeed lost..to try and convince Scots to remain in the UKnotOK at this time…i.e. just before the UKnotOK closes the door to the EU on January 31st…well then I think we are in the realms of desperation and fantasy….the location is also a strong indication of where the REAL appetite for the Union is.

My mother used to say if your argument is weak you will be ignored…and it is only when you have a strong argument people will take notice…..Sooooooo Gordon and Kevin want us to believe that there is NO APPETITE in Scotland for Independence and yet Gordon insists on unleashing a constant onslaught of insufferable speeches in defence of the Union…you know the really popular, in Scotland, UNION..the one we are supposedly NOT wanting to leave but, according to Gordon and Kevin, is in need of DEFENDING….sorry run that by me again ?????…How does that even make sense…shurely one only NEEDS to DEFEND what is at risk ?…BUT their argument is Scots do NOT want Indy but to stay in the Union…the Union that Kevin and Gordon constantly need to DEFEND…from whom ?…surely if no appetite for Indy then their actions and words are pointless..indeed very much surplus to requirement if their majority pro Union Scots opinion/argument was credible ?

I am not , for once, screaming at this…but laughing…it is beyond ridiculous and oh so very desperate…Brown the Union uber alles GO TO GUY…a spent ‘force’ (not)…who was never a force politically…more a liability…the one who never got a gong even though he has and still is going above and beyond his Pro Union duties and civic remit to ensure Scotland remains trapped in a Brexit UKnotOK.

Boris knows he cannot IGNORE Scotland’s desire for another Indy Ref forever…he can however still continue to try and undermine it and argue against the MP’s , but only those from the SNP, who were DEMOCRATICALLY elected by peeps in Scotland to represent them at WM and…. he can also, laughingly, continue to try and defend a (Non) Union well past it’s sell by date….but it is NOT sustainable for him to continue to do this in the long term because we DO have a strong argument for another Indy Ref and a viable reason to have one…..I think Boris, Gordon and Kevin know the tide is turning and intervention is futile….but …for our entertainment.. they will persevere in their futile quest….and thus continue to preach only to the converted….for others their message will fall on deaf ears…rightly so.

So an answer in the form of a dismissal from Boris to Nicola to holding another Indy Ref will not be a constant ….whether it be 2020 or 2021 it IS inevitable….and once more we have a STRONG argument to win it…irrespective of all of the Unionist WEAK interventions.

If Kevin Hague needs to call on Gordon Brown to ‘Save The Union’ and Gordon Brown accepts this invitation to try and ‘Save The Union’ from Kevin Hague……….. then that is really really really really really really etc etc……….

Something so worth laughing about is it not…L…O…F***ing ….L.

Is it not laughable enough that Boris Johnson is PM…PM …..must we also keep getting even MORE and MORE Brown interventions on the Union (Non) uber alles and Tories like Kevin enabling him….resistance is futile ….this is just all too too funny…as in uber bloody Ha Ha.

Capella

Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s thoughts on what to do if Boris says NO (or doesn’t bother replying):
link to businessforscotland.com

Robert J. Sutherland

David Whannel @ 14:42,

Personally, I reckon “goalpost-moving” as Stu is now highlighting is a far better strategy than your supposed “paedo-propaganda”. We’ve had wildly-inflated wall-to-wall nonsense about “once in a generation/lifetime” from the Tories for far too long now, and it’s high time we – and the SNP – gave them back a good taste of their own medicine.

As Stu is showing, it’s not as though there isn’t a lack of hostages to fortune lurking there in the media records.

wull

Thank you, Capella, for posting the document at 2:40 pm.

I can understand people’s frustration with apparently ‘not knowing’ what the SNP are doing. Often enough I feel the same. But it’s only a feeling, perhaps generated by the frustration of others. I have to ask myself: am I really trying to find out what the SNP are doing? And if I am not – i.e. I am not informing myself through the information that is publicly available – then isn’t that my own fault?

And who profits from these feelings of frustration I have, if I give into them? Is it really the independence movement that thereby gains? Or do the opponents of independence, those who want the whole movement to disappear and die – are they the gainers? What does it help the cause, if I allow myself to be overcome by despair and depression … and a kind of attitude of ‘if it doesn’t happen the way I want it to happen, when and as I want it – even by this time yesterday – then it’s not going to happen at all … so I’ll give up, and not do anything more at all’ …

I say this not to lambast anybody – the frustration factor is real, it is part of the great desire to achieve the goal – but simply to say: ‘let’s beware – i.e. be a bit wary – of our feelings.’ They are not usually, indeed very seldom, the best counsellors.

Maybe the despair and frustration that seeps through so many posts is simply the counter-point to the elation that was felt when, after the Brexit vote, independence seemed so nearly within our grasp. Well, the truth is that independence won’t be won simply by feelings of elation, but it could be jeopardised and even lost by feelings of despair and frustration. Which tells us just one thing – don’t give in to these feelings of despair and frustration. They are far more likely, in their effects, to be instruments in the service of the enemy (‘you’ll have had your independence then – it’s a gonner’) rather than anything positive going forward.

Beware of those who spread despair. Honest criticism, OK – but only so long as it is offered with a positive intention, and goes together with an ultimately upbeat attitude that encourages the belief – and the plain fact – that we are all the same moving forward towards independence. And it IS going to happen.

One of the frustrating things about the SNP (and something that I don’t personally find attractive) is that they are professional politicians. Not a class of people I am particularly enamoured of – too calculating (and usually too smarmy) for me. Not my cup of tea. So what? I don’t want to be like that myself, most of the qualities involved are far from admirable in my view, but the truth is we ‘amateurs’ (i.e. people who love – amo, amas, amat – independence, and the whole idea of it, with all the diverse associations it has for us) – we amateurs are not going to achieve the goal without the professionals.

We just aren’t – it’s a fact. Certainly, we need to be able to criticise the professionals, and to hold them to account, and to push them in the directions we see fit. But we can’t just jettison them. We can’t just say, ‘they’re no use (without even defining the individuals we mean by ‘they’, and putting all of them in one basket) so we’re going to start everything again, from scratch, without them’. Frankly, that is not going to work.

Does anyone realise how long it takes to organise a political party and make it into an effective and believable and cohesive instrument for achieving anything at all? We would just splinter into a thousand small groups, always squabbling among ourselves, about something or other – or even about nothing very much. Which would suit those ranged against independence down to the ground.

Reading some posts here over the past wee while, with the build-up of frustration they express, I would say that too many of us want to finish the whole thing off with one last Highland Charge. Do or Die – let’s get it done with. Well, it might work – but be wary, the last time it was seriously tried was Culloden. With devastating and tragic consequences for the whole of Scotland, not just the Highlands.

And remember what Robert Bruce said (and the advice he is said to have given to his infant son and successor, David, I believe, as death came near): ‘Avoid pitched battles’. Bruce had many battles, but I think only one that was really a ‘pitched’ battle. He went into Bannockburn because he could not avoid it. And he knew, from experience, how much had turned on it – and, although he was very careful about it, how easily it might have gone the other way.

He waited until he could choose the terrain, and he mapped it out very carefully indeed. When he did engage, with an inferior force, he was aware of the chance he was taking and of how much would hinge on the outcome. It could easily have been the end of his kingship, and of Scotland’s existence as a free and independent country. He didn’t go gung-ho into it. It was a risk – always will be – but a very calculated risk. He chose the terrain, and he chose the moment. He was nothing if not a professional, not just as a military commander – but as a politician as well.

The gung-ho option is very attractive. To me as well. There is something of it built into the Scottish temperament. We know that. And it is glorious – I am in every way proud of it. And, at the same time, I am every bit aware that it does need to be reined in. The Highland Charge would be glorious, but it won’t win the day. The passion involved in it is an asset, but it has to be channelled. We do need the professionals. Scotland wouldn’t exist without Robert Bruce, or without what he did for her. And – boy, be very sure – he was nothing if not a professional.

We amateurs – lovers all – do need the professionals. Who may seem heartless to us sometimes, but we shouldn’t too easily presume that they are less committed than we are. Hearts alone won’t do it. It’ll take hearts and minds together to achieve the goal – let’s go for it, trust each other a little bit more, and not despair. And YES, it IS within our grasp.

Gary45%

mist001
If you think the media would give the same coverage to the SNP as they do the Yoon parties, I think you’ve “mist” the point.
SNP BAAAD after all.

Capella

@ wull – well said – I blame the media mostly for failing to inform the public about SNP policies that matter. Criticising the media misinformation used to be the main purpose of WoS.

Also, a lot of btl commenteers who used to post links to relevant articles and blogs, no longer come to this site – Nana, Legerwood and Petra for instance.

Others, such as Dave McEwan Hill and Robert Peffers, long time SNP members, posted info about what was going on currently, or historical info. They no longer post here.

So it’s up to those of us still around to highlight the relevant stuff.

Don’t get dragged down by the demoralisers!

Mist001

@ Capella

Seriously. Is that the letter that she sent to Johnson? Is that really it, it’s not a fake or anything?

Mist001

The only demoralisers around here are the SNP themselves!

Regardless of what you think of him, even Trump makes better use of the media available to him than the SNP does.

How can the President of the USA do it but the SNP can’t?

There’s an absolute dearth of information from the SNP and that’s what’s demoralising, not the people on here or others who criticise the SNP.

David Whannel

Robert J Sutherland, I’m afraid ‘Tory paedo *******s’ has a stronger ring to it, is already fairly well known and will be brought up at every conversation. Most think it’s just the cover up, but I’m talking actual charges there are hundreds including Labour, LibDems and other right wing scum, not propaganda.

If the shoe was on the other foot do you think unionists would sit on it?

Try bring up ‘goalpost shifters’ in an average pub or church hall and see who listens…

wull

Thanks, Golfnut @ 3.01, for the information. These are precisely the kind of policies the Tories will try to impose on Scotland, and they underestimate the reaction they will provoke. They really don’t know that Scotland is another country.

When they deliberately undermine Holyrood, and hold the devolution settlement in complete contempt, in order to achieve their objectives with regard to such bad and unpopular policies, they will have lit the fire that pushes the pro-independence vote in Scotland towards the 75% mark.

And it won’t matter if they keep saying in Westminster that they won’t ‘allow’ a vote, as if – laughably – Scotland was a possession or a colony of England. Something which Scotland has never ever been, and which is clearly demonstrable in law, as in history.

Acting thus, England will be a pariah state in the international community, and they themselves will have clearly broken the Union on which the UK is based. I expect the SNP will already have made the case in law in an absolutely watertight way by then, anyway. Even if they haven’t done so as a Party, individual members like Joanna Cherry (and others with her) will have done it anyway. If the SNP won’t finance it, Cherry & Co will still have huge support and won’t have any problem crowdfunding it.

Even if there was some kind of stitch-up which made us seem to lose in law, the moral victory would be ours. Even more so. Because the case is indeed indisputable. The Westminster government simply won’t have a leg to stand on.

The fact is, we’re winning. Charles Edward Stuart should never have turned back at Derby. Neither should we. Just hold our nerve and keep pressing forward. However powerful their shabby majority at Westminster may look, we’ve got them on the run. They can’t stop us.

So let’s press on, steady as she goes – as far as we possibly can TOGETHER. With all the patience and perseverance – true hallmarks of courage – that is required.

Patient, honest, steady toil. Ye cannae beat it. In the end, naeb’dy can … Certainly not Westminster, or its government of shallow and dishonest sophisticates led by the blond ball00n.

Dr Jim

A lot of people in England talk about Scottish Independence and how Scotland doesn’t want it, even people from Scotland go to England to talk about the people of Scotland not wanting Independence, then the government of England declares that Scottish people don’t want Independence and the broadcast media owned and run from England informs Scottish people that they don’t want Independence, and all these people in England are so sure and certain of themselves that the people of Scotland don’t want Independence that what’s the point of asking the Scottish people at all

I mean that would be a complete waste of time wouldn’t it?

Keepers at the Zoo offer animals different foods to find out what they like, monkeys have better civil rights than Scottish people

Please send just £2 per month to help us save the rights of Scottish people to make decisions, thank you

Mist001

@ Dr Jim

But if that’s true, then who’s responsible for all the stats that the Rev posts here showing no significant increase in support for Scottish independence?

Are you saying he’s getting his info from the MSM or making the stats up?

TheItalianJob

Majority of Scots now want Independence.

It’s now been proven. Westminster and the U.K. government are kidding themselves if they think otherwise.

We are on our way. Keep the heid all.

TheItalianJob

Brown’s a total irrelevant waste of space. He was when he was chancellor and PM and he is now.

Robert J. Sutherland

wull @ 15:34,

Many wise words there, wull, as is your wont.

I think we would be in a slightly better place though if we didn’t also detect a certain sentiment in the SNP, at various levels of influence from the grassroots right on up, that is positively averse to any kind of confrontation, regards Brexit as an unfortunate aberration and inconvenience that is best allowed to pass by as quickly as possible, and is clearly prepared to wait for another decade or more until there is some kind of “sign in the sky”, as it were, that it’s finally time to act, in the then full certainty of success. The opposite of “gung-ho” is arguably a “lack of moral fibre” (as the old euphemism went), hiding behind a fig-leaf of the need for a careful choice of ground that you rightly describe.

Leaving we “gung-ho”-ers with the sinking feeling that we are going to throw away the genuine opportunity of a lifetime for mere lack of courage and – it must be added – from our own side’s lack of gumption, ideas and presentation skills.

It is surely this widely-shared feeling of relative impotence, relieved only by the occasional glimpse of success as with the Joanna Cherry et al constitutional challenges, which is our main difficulty at the moment, and why many of us are hungry for more.

Not least because among ordinary folk, nothing succeeds like visible success. We have just had a very good election result, which is a welcome advance, but which must surely now be thoroughly exploited.

Dr Jim

Mist001

Polling companies and opinions from and by people who don’t live in a country aren’t the people and are a way of deflecting asking the actual people who’s country it is and what they want

If you don’t live in Scotland you know nothing no matter who you are or where you’re from, I might have opinions on Timbuctu but they’re totally irrelevant to the people of that place and I would have no moral right to impose my will upon them even if I was born in Timbuctu

I don’t care who anybody is or where they’re from or live, but if they don’t live in Scotland all they have is an opinion nothing more and polling companies don’t run countries or what would be the need for governments at all

People elect representatives to represent them that was and is the original system of democracy, nobody elects newspapers, polling companies, or bloggers on the Internet

Muscleguy

@republicofscotland

Little New Zealan 4million now population but 3million before has been elected to the Security Council several times. NZ has lots of friends in the world due to diplomacy and trade and our semi non aligned diplomacy (since we declared ourselves non and anti nuclear). From the Asia/Pacific region including Chile and Peru to the Middle East and Africa as well as other small estates in Europe such as Norway.

iScotland could emulate that post Independence. In the immediate period after our independence we will need a major diplomatic effort around the world to helpf us make new friends as we will have a window of international interest and good wishes. Doors will open. So in between a Yes vote and Independence Day we will need to build a diplomatic service perhaps initially using deals with British Embassies. A network of consuls will help as well, the diaspora may well be falling oer each other to be consuls. I know I would if I was back in NZ.

Robert J. Sutherland

Mist001 @ 16:22,

Stu himself, among others like myself, has answered this point more than once. It’s not hard to understand. The question doesn’t impinge on many ordnary folk – the very ones whose opinion shift will be the one that finallly counts – and never will until they are faced with the actual need to address it in a full-on campaign.

There comes a time – and soon – when good judgement and leadership is required. It won’t come from a nice little ribbon-wrapped guarantee, whether by the polls or any other way.

Mist001

@ Dr Jim

It may have escaped your notice but opinions are all anybody has on this board. Very, very few people seem to deal in facts.

I live in France. The Rev lives in Bath, neither of which are Scotland. You’re seriously saying that because neither of us currently live in Scotland, then we know nothing???

You’ve spouted a load of nonsense and THAT’S a fact!

Mist001

I’ll go into my Rab C Nesbitt made and say ‘Ah’ll tell ye this buy, ah’ll tell ye this, ah think Joanna Cherry is Craig Murray in drag!’

TheItalianJob

Agree Dr Jim. By living in Scotland you are nearer to the pulse of People living there. What they think, how they act etc etc.

By living elsewhere it’s only an opinion that you can gather from other sources such as biased TV and Newspapers and make comments on.

TheItalianJob

Some of the nonsense that gets spouted about Scotland from people in the U.K. who have never set foot in Scotland makes me just laugh (at them).
🙂

Dr Jim

The opposition are complaining that the FM of Scotland is to fly out to Oslo tomorrow for a conference address, meetings with business and political meetings with leaders there

The opposition cite climate change and flying as their reason for objecting to the FMs visit and state that she should be video conferencing any meetings for transparancy while conveniently forgetting about Boris Johnsons Mustique adventures, of course part of the FMs visit to Oslo is an opportunity to have private and secret conversations so it’s simple, she’s no tellin, stick that in yer pipe and smoke yer transparancy

TheItalianJob

@Capella at 3.44pm

Aye I miss all those knowledgeable posters you have mentioned. Robert Peffers was my main man for great posts and information.

Good to see you still posting though.

Dr Jim

@Mist001

If you live in France or anywhere else then you have no vote or locus in the argument, all you have is an opinion and if anyone wants to pay attention to that it’s up to them, but I reiterate if you have no vote then you don’t count, when the voting is counted you don’t exist just as the President of France wouldn’t

Mark

I keep telling folk, that a politician can not make a promise of a once in a generation vote, as you disenfranchise the youth. That is why we have a GE so young tax payers participate in democracy that they are paying for.

Boris has made superficial noise about not granting an S30 order, but his legal team will tell him to respect democracy or risk Scotland having an S30 advisory referendum which the Tories will have no control over. Scotland will return a huge YES to spite English authoritarianism.

TheItalianJob

@Dr Jim at 5pm

Great news that our FM is taking the initiative and going abroad to specific events to represent Scotland and it’s people as is our right (and hers) to do so.

Gary

Brittan always gave the appearance of a consummate Tory, oily and loathsome. More loathsome than we knew at the time as it turns out.

Yes, moving the goalposts as we knew they would, and will again but one thing I must agree with him on is “independence…which could not be avoided if people voted massively for it year after year” THAT is precisely what it will take. It won’t happen this year, this is a long term project. The UK Government will ONLY give in when they are embarrassed into doing so. The case must be overwhelming.

They have OUR cash in THEIR pockets, who would give that up without a fight? They’ve done well to promote us as a land of poverty and drunkards with heroin addicts on every corner. How we are subsidised and suckle on the British teat when the opposite is true. When you control every means possible of getting and disseminating information this is all too easy, outliers considered fantasists and the truth made into a lie…

Dr Jim

If Johnson was 100% sure of his ground he would have replied by now after all his NO NO NO rhetoric my guess is he has to have long conflabs with legal eagles and others to find a position he thinks and hopes he can defend, or you never know he might see the bigger picture and realise that an outright refusal places him in and his trade talks in an awkward position

Johnson knows like we know the FM will refuse to accept an outright NO so he has to figure out the ramifications of what might come next

To continue in a despotic manner will not win Johnson friends or influence people abroad that he hopes to deal with

Robert J. Sutherland

Dr Jim @ 17:00,
TheItalianJob @ 17:10,

Yup, that’s real “living in the early days of a better nation”, not mere empty posturing.

Robert J. Sutherland

Dr Jim @ 17:21,

I doubt he spent much time on the matter whilst sunning himself with a poolside drink in Mustique, so I guess he’s only catching up with the legal eagles now he’s back. But if the SG can’t but follow-through on what they’ve started, so must he, like it or not.

This thing is just not going away.

Dr Jim

Jess Phillips Labour MP who desires to be the new Labour leader in the UK and of course Robert Lemming’s boss in Scotland refers to the *people up there* when she says she wouldn’t *allow* Scotland a decision on its own future

One for all and all for England again right there

Capella

@ TheItalianJob – good to see you popping in from time to time too 🙂

I hope Robert Peffers returns once he recovers from his cataract op. Others lurk over on Scot Renewable’s Indyref2,scot forum, which I can’t link to atm. Legerwood and Petra have decamped to Wee Ginger Dug and Bellacaledonia. I’m hoping that once a campaign starts they will mostly return.

I just keep on keeping on, like a few others. Somebody’s got to do it. : )

Mist001

@Dr Jim

That’s where you’re wrong. I voted in the previous referendum and previous GEs including the latest one. Overseas voters have a 15 window to participate in UK elections. You might not know this but I lived for most of my life in Scotland, so I do have a bit of an inkling about the place and I certainly won’t be lectured to by someone like you.

Mist001

So Sturgeon is off to Oslo to tell them more about her plans for Scottish independence than she tells us!!

It’s fucking laughable.

Dr Jim

@Robert J. Sutherland 5:27pm

I’d put money an the ground covered by the FM during the GE by comparison to Johnson was more and she also attended every interview on TV radio and print press that was asked of her while still turning up in her constituency on her MSP work

The FM took about three whole days off between Christmas and New Year for herself, the rest of the time she was grafting, and off she goes again

If Nicola Sturgeon really was in this for the money as the eedjits suggest, they’d owe her money, if she was a brickie she could’ve built an entire town all by herself by now

Abulhaq

The British state appears to be under the misapprehension that it has the power ‘to grant’ independence to Scotland should a majority opt for it.
This implies that shared assets of the three century union will stay with the BS. Indeed the perception that Scotland going its own way will simply be a bit of the UK hiving off leaving the remaining entity with all of those lovely assets untouched is very common.
The Scots contributed nothing so ‘they’ can leave with nothing runs the message. Of course, ‘they’ will be expected to pick up the tab for ‘debts’ accrued.
A weak régime in Scotland might well fall for that one. We must pray that when the great day comes we have one one prepared to demand a full inventory.
The winding up of the UK will need its Domesday Book.

Dr Jim

@Mist001

I know what you are son that’s why I can’t be bothered with you, but still nice to know you won’t have a vote in the next referendum

Mist001

@ Dr Jim

Do you make a habit out of saying ridiculous things?

I thought you were looking for votes, so how would it be nice if I don’t have a vote in the next referendum? That’s one less vote.

And you think that’s ‘nice’!!

LOL!!

Famous15

The way things are going in Spain cCatalonia will be free before us
,
Broadband rubbish in Edinburgh today. Weather?

Helen Yates

I expect the Tories and their allies in the media will this year focus the same energy and resources which they used *successfully* to destroy Jeremy Corbyn on the SNP and the frightening thing is The SNP have presented them with all the ammunition they will need, GRA being top of the list.

sassenach

mist001

Do you seriously believe anyone on here thinks you would be voting for Indy? Deluded!

jfngw

@Abulhaq

We either walk away with our resources and WM keeps the debt if they want to keep all the assets or they come to an amicable arrangement (not sure if that option is really open with WM, they have no honour when it comes to negotiation).

callmedave

check

Sinky

BBC Scotland backing the Tories on the budget date row by neglected to tell viewers that Derek Mackay had written to uk Treasury twice before Christmas pointing out the problems regarding local government budgets but still UK Government failed to respond and news on delay came via Tory press briefings.

BBC remain UK government cheerleaders

terence callachan

Mist 001

Give it a rest
Your anti SNP rhetoric is nagging extreme

You have absolutely no idea what SNP are planning
You therefore have no idea whatsoever what they are doing

No political party reveals detail of their very action
And SNP in the predicament they find themselves in will certainly not reveal all to the public domain

You live in France
I appreciate your concern
But you won’t even be able to vote in a Scottish independence referendum

What we need at this time is support for
The only political party that can get us Scottish independence
Our chosen leader who had made all the right moves so far

All we hear from critics like yourself is criticism of what she doesn’t do

You my friend can not predict the future you might think you can but you most certainly cannot

You can guess but please be aware that it is just a guess

A guess is fine it’s okay to guess but don’t pass it off as certainty

SNP said it will be 2020
This is 2020 there’s still nearly all of it to go so give them 2020 to do what they said they would do before you condemn them for false promises

Sorry to sound so harsh
Perhaps you agree nervous
An ardent supporter , so far away
Stay on side
Support Scottish independence
Support SNP the only party that can get Scottish independence
Support our leader she is doing a fantastic job
I trust she will deliver

wull

Thank you, Robert Sutherland @ 16.41, I do take your point, and do sympathise, especially if (as I am sure must be the case) you have indeed met people within the SNP who are in favour of the never-never land of eternal delay, claiming to do so on the pretext of choosing the right moment. Such people, much different from the traditional membership of the SNP, whose aims and objectives they do not genuinely share, are a dead weight.

My guess is that these kind of people are the down-side of the massive spike in membership which the SNP ‘enjoyed’ (or ‘suffered’) in the wake of the 2014 referendum result. Many who joined then, or since then, were genuine, but others were not. These latter do the SNP considerable harm.

I suspect some of them are actual plants, which is insidious, while others (most) are a certain kind of ‘entryist’ who simply identify whichever bandwagon will best deliver their narcissistic hopes of having some kind of ‘political career’, and climb on to it. If so, they are mere opportunists who have no genuine convictions or deep commitments, but simply join up where they think the power lies and their own personal chances of advance will increase.

Anyway, whether I am right or wrong about that, I doubt very much if the core leadership of the SNP, or most people at that level, are quite like that. There might be some, but not many. Even granted the internal diversity which has become increasingly apparent within that group in recent months, in particular among the SNP’s MSPs and MPs, I don’t think the splits are mainly between those who want to get Indyref2 now and those who want to kick it into the long grass, sending it years or even a decade down the line …

For sure, there are questions of strategy and timing among these SNP elites, and that brings tensions … But my impression is that insofar as there are real divisions, these are around other issues and factors (and, no doubt, personalities).

Personally, I think the timetable is clear, pretty much to everyone at the top of the SNP. They are definitely going to go for a September referendum. That’s the immediate objective.

Realistically, since all kinds of things can happen ‘twixt the cup and the lip, they will have factored in the possibility that it won’t quite happen like that, although they will do everything they can to ensure that it does. In which case another timetable, with various possibilities, is surely clear in their minds and well planned for.

According to my guess, they will have pencilled in that failing September 2020, they will go for December. And if events conspire against them so that even that doesn’t work, it will be April 2021 (maybe, specifically, April 6 2021).

There will be yet another scenario in the planning, all the same, just in case. If events intervene in such a way that even April 2021 prives possible, the June 2021 Holyrood election will be the decisive moment. It will be used as a plebiscite. They will campaign in such a way that the result of that election – even without a referendum – will settle the matter.

Whether we like that timetable or not, we can be sure of this: Scotland’s right to choose will not be thwarted indefinitely. The inside (i.e. earliest possible) date for deciding the issue is September 2020, and the outside date (the absolute latest for it) is June 2021.

In other words, the vote on Scotland’s independence is FOR SURE going to take place EITHER 9 months from now OR, at the very latest, 18 months from now. That means ALL OF US should take heart: it’s game on, as of NOW.

Of course, the SNP are not going to publicise a timetable like that, with all the various scenarios it includes. You may be sure that these various scenarios – with all the multiple possible eventualities and response to these eventualities which they include – will all have been worked through in minute detail and charted out already by the backroom boys in the SNP. And they will still be doing ongoing work on these charts even now. And will continue to do so all the way through.

Technically – though I am not sure – I think this kind of stuff can be called ‘Game Theory’. It’s what professional political parties do, in their background teams whose members you never hear about. They might not be known, but they are there – and my guess is that the SNP have generally (not unfailingly, but generally) been pretty good at this kind of stuff.

Are they going to blazon it all from the rooftops? Certainly not … That would be to give far too much away to the enemy in advance, and could be equivalent to tossing the game away. You play the game to win, and that includes keeping your opponent in the dark, not least about your strategies and intentions.

Of course, they are not going to tell us – the likes of you and me – because if they do that, they will have told Boris Johnson and all the braying Nay-sayers as well. They are not into the business of scoring own goals, or giving away open ones. That’s why we need patience.

The SNP really DO want to have a referendum, because that carries maximum weight with the international community. And, for the same reason, they do not want any ambiguity about its legality. They are therefore determined to leave not even the trace of a loophole that could be construed as invalidating it.

They really DO NOT want it to come down to the June 2021 Holyrood election, which I have indicated as their outside limit date. That is a messier option than that of an indisputably legitimate referendum. It is a ‘worst-case scenario’ for the SNP. But, if it does come down to that worst-case scenario (the June 2021 option) the SNP will by then have made it abundantly clear to everyone – and not least to the whole international community – that this has only become necessary because the Westminster government has continually denied the Scottish people their democratic right to hold a referendum on Scotland’s independence.

All that will have been made very explicit, not only within Scotland and within the UK, but in every international forum as well, during the 18 months period between now and then.

I have no warrant, and certainly no inside knowledge for saying any of this. I am not an SNP member and don’t know personally any of their top or even their middling people. Nor do I want to, in fact. But it does seem self-evident to me that this is what is already happening.

In fact, it seems so obvious, I don’t see how anyone can disbelieve it. Nicola Sturgeon has already pinned her colours to the mast, and so has the SNP collectively. They did so very clearly during the December election campaign, and they spelled it out in their manifesto. They KNOW they CAN’T kick the can down the road any longer. They KNOW that if they were to do so, they would lose all credibility. They KNOW they have to move on it full steam ahead now, and they will NOT be letting up.

Don’t expect them to spell out the details – that would be foolish – but they themselves surely know that June 2021 is the absolute limit date. If they were (in my view, foolishly) to announce that, Johnson and the Conservative government will then simply play for time – and do nothing until then. (Or, at worst, they will try to find a pretext for closing down Holyrood altogether, so that no 2021 elections ever take place – a move which, as indicated in a previous post, would rebound very badly on them indeed, since of itself it would be almost guaranteed to bust up the Union: the consequence of such a move on Johnson’s part would be to push support for independence through the roof, to an unprecedented level).

As I said, the SNP’s preferred option is surely Indyref2 in September 2020. They will be going all out for that. Just wait and see … Or else December 2020.

Meanwhile … They have all the best cards, and they are quite right to play them close to their chest.

As you say, Robert, at 5.27 pm above, this thing is just not going to go away. It’s already game on. I hope we all take heart (and apply our minds as well). What none of us should do is allow ourselves to be sucked into a totally unwarranted ‘pool of despond’; that is the sort of thing to which we should NEVER succumb, because it simply plays into the hands of the enemy).

Either in 9 months time, or at the very latest in 18, we are going to win … and win big!

It’s not long now. It really isn’t … So let’s become ‘YES TOGETHER for INDY’.

Mist001

@ sassenach

I can tell you for a fact that I have done more for independence than you would even have the balls for.

Unfortunately, the SNP don’t seem to have kept to their side of the bargain and that’s why I detest them or at least, the current leadership of Sturgeon, Murrell and Blackford. I don’t have a lot of time either for the poison dwarf that is Tommy Shepphard and I bet there are many many others like me who are furious with the SNP right now. They’ve let me down badly.

No matter what anyone says or thinks, the SNP of today is a completely different animal altogether from the one that Alex Salmond led and we have been DUPED by Sturgeon and her crew and the sooner people realise this, the sooner we can move forward with independence because as you can see from the Revs published stats, for a so called movement, the independence movement isn’t doing a lot of moving.

For fucks sake people, WAKE UP!! You’re being fucking duped.

Robert J. Sutherland

Helen Yates @ 18:00,

Hi, Helen. Are you professionally despondent, or does it just come naturally? I haven’t seen a single posting of yours – ever – that isn’t thoroughly depressive (and depressing). If it’s therapy you seek, I’m sure that there are far better solutions available elsewhere.

What we all need more than anything right now is hope, and positive ideas for how to move forward. After a recent considerable electoral success, don’t forget.

Mist001

@ terence callachan

Yes, I currently live in France but how the fuck does that mean I won’t be able to vote in any future referendum?

Get yourself a fucking education you dimwit and shut the fuck up until you know what you’re talking about:

link to gov.uk

Robert J. Sutherland

Mist001 @ 19:07,

Well, there it is out in the open, at least. Another “Colin Alexander” construct. From the very same stable, even?

sassenach

Mist001

I appreciate your mind-reading skills – but you have NO IDEA what I have or have not done for Indy, just as I can only guess as to what your ‘Walter Mitty’ dreams of what you’ve done!!

You are, as others seem to agree a long-running anti-Indy poster, constantly downbeat in every sentence you write.

Gie’s a break!

One_Scot

I have an idea, it know it works for me, why not just scroll by the fuckwits, just saying.

wull

With regard to my post @ 7.03 pm there is a typo I would like to correct. In what I think is the 9th paragraph (if anyone gets that far) it should NOT read:

‘If events intervene in such a way that even April 2021 prives possible, the June 2021 Holyrood election will be the decisive moment.’

BUT

‘If events intervene in such a way that even April 2021 PROVES IMPOSSIBLE, the June 2021 Holyrood election will be the decisive moment.’

CameronB Brodie

This sort of political uncertainty could be easily avoided if the spirit of the British constitution was respected by Westminster. Unfortunately, legal realism and a respect for the rule-of-law appears to be a stranger to Britain. The British constitution was not intended as a vehicle for Scotland’s enslavement, but that is exactly how the Prime Minister intends to abuse it.

Beyond Legal Realism?: Cultural Analysis, Cultural Studies, and the Situation of Legal Scholarship

INTRODUCTION: THE DEATH OF THE SOCIAL AND THE TURN TO CULTURE

….The twentieth century familiarized us with the idea of propaganda and the fact that political forces needed to utilize mass communications in order to realize their power. Today, however, the cultural has become more than a supplement or a delivery vehicle; it is quite literally where theaction is.10″ In today’s academy, sociologists, political scientists, and lawyers find themselves invoking “culture” at the expense of, or in response to, an emerging crisis within their own master references, such as “the social,” “public opinion,” and “law.” The cultural, in short, has become a stand-in for interpretive grids that can no longer be utilized effectively….

link to scholarship.law.berkeley.edu

Morgatron

Was looking to join in for a cheeky wee comment or two but looking at the keech being spouted on here tonight, I’m away for a shite.:-)

Liz g

Morgatron @ 7.41
There’s nuthin in the world as underestimated as a good shite,so I wish ye aw ye wish yersel 🙂

Liz g

Oh my…. I see what Morgatron means… Everybody seems to be on a downer.
Cheer up peeps and do yer stuff,start working out what Westminster is up to with this Budget delay?
How will it damage Holyrood?
What are they likely to pull?
Will the Council’s play along with Westminster or Holyrood?
What’s to be done ( and don’t tell me our brains are never picked over this has been inspiration corner too many times )
Anybody?

Unionist Media BDSM Club

Another killer post at 7.03, wull.

Only thing I’d disagree with is that the referendum might be held before the Holyrood elections. If we lost that referendum it would wreck the SNP’s chances in an election immediately afterwards, so it’s unlikely they’d risk that. They’re just a bunch of troughers after all /s.

The elections are currently slated for 6 may 2021, but there’s the option to move that date by a month. So they might move the Holyrood elections forward to early April and then hold the referendum sometime before mid-June.

Nice optimistic time of year to hold it, and it would be good to really demoralise the opposition with a Holyrood victory/landslide immediately before the iref campaign. Plus as noted the other night, it would make the Tories and Labour look ridiculous to have to tear each other apart during the Holyrood campaign and then *days later* to pretend they’re best of Yoon buddies in Better Together 2.

Early 2021 might be the best time anyway. If Boris goes for No Deal at the end of this year, the ensuing bedlam would be the perfect background for iref2.

This graph clearly shows the progress we’ve made in indyref polls since mid-2017: link to whatscotlandthinks.org

Colin Alexander

Robert J. Sutherland

Have you no read that chapter of Sun Tzu’s Art of War about deceiving your enemy into thinking you are incapable of taking any decisive action and incapable of seizing the initiative?

The SNP have mastered that ability of appearing totally useless at defending Scotland’s sovereignty and Scottish democracy.

Have no fear. It’s all a feint. A ruse. A bluff. All part of the great deception of appearing to alienate their own supporters by sheer incompetence and political ivory-tower arrogance.

Our activities are all part of the SNP’s secret plan B.

It’s all to lull the unionists into thinking the SNP are so incompetent that the indy movement are losing trust in the SNP leadership as dithering, subservient colonial administrators who will simply allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU with total SNP subservience to the British Crown with only a pathetic Twitter whimper and Blackford bluster at WM.

As you can see, the plan is playing out to perfection.

But SHHH! Keep it a secret. I’m only telling you cos you’re a verified BTL commenter using your real name.

Jockanese Wind Talker

With regards to K***n H****’s wee shindig with The Clinking Fist Gordon Broon in Newcastle soon.

link to thenational.scot

“These Islands conference will be held in Newcastle in February with the “aim of bringing together the disparate voices defending the integrity of the United Kingdom”.”

I propose we should all be fully BTL across MSM, and any other Gammon infested forums asking all those who feel that the ‘Subsidy Junkie Jocks’ should be kicked out of the Union to turn up in Newcastle and protest this event!

Along the lines of:

“Turn up and protest this event whose sole aim is to keep Greater England shackled to the Scottish spongers who want to have free prescriptions, free Uni etc. that England doesn’t have, while wanting to let foreigners in, get rid of Britains Nukes, kowtow to the EU etc. etc. and have England pay for it!”

A “Kick Scotland out the Union to save wasting money that would be better spent on Englands NHS and Police etc.”

Wouldn’t it be a pity for H***e and Broon to be confronted by a group the people of South Britain, their fellow Unionists and see what these people (as per their BBC/MSM brainwashing about the Scottish) really think of us Scots and saving ‘The Precious’!!

You know it makes sense.

😉

CameronB Brodie

Sorry Liz but I’m more a theorist than a strategist, and don’t have a particularly full gap of the current state of play. Saying that, I might be able to help folk decide whether a constitutional culture that denies them fundamental human rights, is really the sort of legal order that makes them feel safe.

Agreed, another killer post from wull.

From “Natural Law” to “Cultural Law”? “Culture” as a New Source of Normative Validity

….Let me start with a look back on five years of “Law as Culture” merging in the formulation of a “Law as Culture Paradigm” that may be used for multiple purposes, as comparing legal cultures and reflecting legal reasoning in different cultural and social contexts, for example. In a second step, I would like to develop some ideas about “Culture” as an argument in legal discourse (II) in order to situate this questioning in the larger context of the debate about natural law arguments and culture-related topoi, tentatively at least in penal law, family law and constitutional law (III).

I want to conclude with more general reflections of the sociological critique of natural law, the sociologist’s claim to find in society itself the solution to the normative problem, the legal historian’s assumption that history would produce a relatively rightful natural law, or to lay all normative power into the procedure itself, finally to ask where the reference to “culture” as a primary source of normative validity may lead to (conclusion).

link to recht-als-kultur.de

jfngw

Turn around every way, looking back another day
The race is on, I’m out to win, before I start I must begin

Sometimes I feel we are just going round in circles with no clarity, Spencer Davis just popped into my head.

link to youtube.com

Liz g

Cameron @ 8.04
That’s ok Cameron 🙂 just do yer thing 🙂
I just think this Budget carry on is to drive a wedge between the Council’s and Holyrood I just can’t think how it will work!

Willie

Colin Alexander @ 8.30.

Your post would be humorous satire if it were not so true.

But the SNP can act. It has a mandate both in Hollyrood, Westminster and in the EU referendum.

The SNP need to play the system and challenge the Constitution and how Westminster operates to the point of destruction.

Where does the constitution say that Scotland’s MPs can be disregarded, that the Westminster Parliament is forever unless non Scots MPs decide otherwise. Or what about Scots Law. Is it subservient to English law. Or what about Prime Ministerial decrees. Are they valid in Scotland.

The Act of Union did not dissolve Scotland. Let us not believe that it did.

Liz g

Jfngw @ 8.48
We are a bit,but if we believe (as I think we do) that the SNP are the best vehicle for Indy.
It’s time we started driving it… And I suspect we’re going to start on Saturday.
Everyone all across the movement feels it’s time and are starting to say so.
The SNP might be unsure,but Yes are saying loud and clear we’ve got this… We can move those polls…
And if they want us to wait they better start explaining why!

Dr Jim

It’s hard to imagine what sort of people object to a government helping people who need help or who object to a government who tries to give a hand up to those who’ve slipped back, what sort of people want their neighbours to be in poverty and why do they vote for politics that they know will make things that way

Places like Ireland Norway Sweden Denmark have all been praised at one time or another for having happier healthier countries and each of those countries follows similar political methods to the SNP and each of those countries have the same thing in common, they’re wealthier and they don’t possess the desire to jaunt around the world killing other folk for what they’ve got, which is usually oil

These people object to the SNP trying to do what these other countries have done and are doing, and by these objections are demonstrating they don’t want equality, they don’t want fairness or happiness or even peace, they want dominion by dictators even if it means they are dictated to

Maybe they think if they achieve dominion status over others it won’t mean them, because that’s just like voting for the best fighter among a gang of thugs hoping he’ll be your pal and won’t beat you up next because you’re grovelling and kissing his Arse

It makes us Scottish Independence supporters look brave, those others, not so much

Col.Blimp IV

Colin Alexander says:

“…I’m only telling you cos you’re a verified BTL commenter using your real name.”

Are there many who use their “real” names?

I recall during the early days of Cybernattery, there was a cipher who went by the name of “A Spook in Leith”.

He let slip his “true identity” and proceeded in real time to plot his life from playing football at Uni to working for a Bank and then signing for The Spartans – and sure enough there was his name on the team lists in the paper.

His online self seemed far too well informed about obscure stuff from days gone by for a guy in his early twenties, so I wondered was he –

The fastest and slikest on-line researcher who ever lived?

An uber-nationalist ultra-geek?

Or “The Spook in Leith” – identity thief extraordinaire?

Gary45%

Mist001,
WoS should do a weekly compilation of your SNP baad posts.

Could call it ” Now That’s What I Call Bollocks”

Brian Doonthetoon

I’ve been away all day, at my brother’s funeral in Clydebank so it’s taken me a while, this evening, to catch up with all the comments today.

Hi Colin Alexander on 7 January, 2020 at 1:24 pm.

You typed,
“If the SNP are prepared to wait forever, how much longer are you prepared to wait on the SNP?”

I believe you would have to ask only waiters that question, as they are the people who wait ON tables and people.

What you, perchance, meant to type was “how much longer are you prepared to wait FOR the SNP?”

You’re welcome.

CameronB Brodie

If I was to try and put a name on my thing, it would be called cultural morphology, or the study of culture and the subsequent formation of political belief and norms. Why do I think this important and useful to our struggle to secure proper legal recognition of the sovereignty legal personality of Scotland’s residents? See Brexit, which is the cultural expression of the collective narcissism that characterises contemporary English nationalism.

The only way to bring about effective change is to understand the nature of the beast, i.e. political culture. If you spoil a kid and allow them to grow up a self-centered and racist twat, the kid probably won’t grow up to be a nice person. More probably a Tory, or British nationalist, though it is generally hard to separate the two identities. The same can be said for culture, especially one that has not dealt with the social pathology eminating from its corrosive colonial past.

Gaelic Scotland in the Colonial Imagination
Anglophone Writing from 1600 to 1900

link to nupress.northwestern.edu

Clive Scott

Disappointed at the increased level of anti Nicola/SNP drivel on this site. Nicola has spent her whole life working for an independent Scotland. The SNP has come a very long way since I was first eligible to vote for them in 1970. The tide comes in and goes out but with each decade it gets higher up the beach. Keep the faith.

CameronB Brodie

Brian Doonthetoon
Pedant. 😉
Sorry to hear about your loss.

Dr Jim

@Brian Doonthetoon

Sorry for your loss Brian

Jockanese Wind Talker

I think it is because if the Scots Govt don’t pass a budget/set Scottish Income Tax rates by 1st April 2020 this means they CANNOT raise any SCOTTISH Income Tax (you know the powers they say SG aren’t using, whilst at the same time using them to make Scotland the highest taxed part of ‘The Precious’ @Liz g says.

link to archive.is

My take is that this strategically late UK Budget will either:

1. Cost Scotland’s Exchequer £13 Billion (so money destined for our Health, Social Care, Education, Councils etc.)

BoJo can then let Scotland be short of cash (putting our Councils, Services etc. at risk so BBC/MSM can say Scotland shite ‘cos EssEnnPeeBaad)!

or

BoJo can benevolently ‘lend’ money to Scotland to address this shortfall (showing the broad shoulders/pooling sharing of ‘The Precious’ is true while simultaneously increasing Scotland’s deficit).

2. Make Scot’s Gov desperate to pass a budget (by end of March 2020, so within 3 weeks) that Harvie’s Woke Party can extract vote losing concessions to ensure it passes at the 11th hour

Sneaky fuckers the Tories and starving your enemy of resources is a classic siege warfare tactic.

Brian Doonthetoon

(Kinda O/T but in reply to a comment.)

Hi jfngw on 7 January, 2020 at 8:48 pm.

You typed,
“Turn around every way, looking back another day
The race is on, I’m out to win, before I start I must begin

Sometimes I feel we are just going round in circles with no clarity, Spencer Davis just popped into my head.

link to youtube.com

A wee memory for me there. It was actually Traffic (who grew out of the Spencer Davis Group) who released the track. That song was used as the theme song for the film “Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush”, released in 1968. It was the first X Certificate I saw, two months before my 16th birthday.

Looking back, the cast included loads of peeps who went on to big careers in film and TV, like, Barry Evans, Judy Geeson, Angela Scoular, Sheila White, Adrienne Posta, Diane Keen, Christopher Timothy, George Layton and others.

It features live performances of the Spencer Davis Group (at a youth club dance) and is peppered with tracks from both the Spencer Davis Group and Traffic, along with some other goodly tracks from others of the period.

You can get info and download it for viewing here:-
link to rarelust.com

Jason Smoothpiece

Brian Doonthetoon

Brian sorry to hear about your brother, it’s very painful.

Hope things get brighter for you.

Stoker

David Whannel wrote on 7 January, 2020 at 2:42 pm: “20% of No’s have already switched to Yes, before Brexit,”

Hi David, do you have a source for that figure? It’s not that i don’t believe you it’s more to do with it being a pretty impressive figure if true. Please don’t post me any direct links connected to BUM rags (British Unionist Media). Just let me know your source please and i’ll take care of the rest. Thank you!

Colin Alexander

Brian Doonthetoon

My sincere condolences to you.

Capella

@ Brian Doonthetoon – so sad to hear abut your brother. Both my sister and brother died some years ago. I feel deserted! It does get better in time.

Liz g

Briandoonthetoon
Sorry for your loss Brian xxx

Still Positive

Briandoonthetoon. Condolences to you. I lost my sister in Sept 2012. We weren’t particularly close but I still miss her. It does get easier though.

Going to a funeral tomorrow of my late husband’s cousin.

Liz g

Jockaneese Wind Talker @ 9.47
They’re defiantly up to something with it!

jfngw

@Brian Doonthetoon

I hope remembering those days of your youth was some comfort in what must have been a sad day.

I never saw the film in the cinema but on the TV around about 1970/71, strangely I was 16 then too, still remember Diane Keen.

Stoker

For any lurkers or newbies to WOS looking for reliable sources or maybe just reassurance about *anything* connected to Scottish independence then here are the best 3 sources:

1: You’ve already found it, WOS, explore the well-stocked archives.

2: link to indyposterboy.scot

3: link to businessforscotland.com

Please help to promote these sources to everyone you can. Each of them are major thorns in the UK establishments heart. There are many other pro-indy sources but with these 3 you cannot go wrong. Each offering different styles and practicalities. With some regular bedtime reading you’ll be fluent in ‘Indy’ before you know it. 🙂

CameronB Brodie

Brian Doonthetoon
The meter of the first two lines of the quote, just screams Traffic, or what I know of them. Well spotted.

Robert J. Sutherland

The nonexistent so-called “Colin Alexander” @ 20:30,

Oh gawd, not Sun Tzu again. That’s so last year.

X_Sticks

@Brian Doonthetoon

Sorry to hear you’ve lost your brother, Brian. Condolences to you, Chris and family.

Josef Ó Luain

I don’t accept the argument that those of Scottish origin who live elsewhere and maintain a keen interest in Scottish affairs aren’t qualified or sufficiently knowledgeable to hold a meaningful opinion re: Scottish politics and Scottish Independence.

I’m extremely uncomfortable with those who make that sort of crass, exclusivist and baseless argument. Does Stuart Campbell know nothing about Scottish politics, for fuck sake? It’s a simple, unfortunate truth that too many indigenous Scots, regardless of age, gender or class, know little about Scottish politics and affairs, and care even less. A reality which surely helps explains the defeat of 2014 and why we remain Dependent.

Brian Doonthetoon

Thanx for all your sentiments peeps.

CBB – “Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush” was one of the films that (as I saw) defined me because, at the time, we, the 48th Dundee BB, and the Girl Guide troop(?), based at the same church, were running dances, alternatively for fundraising, every 3 months in the hall upstairs, in the middle one of the City Churches.

We both used a band from Alloa called “The Oryx”, who did a rather good version of Vanilla Fudge’s version of “You Keep Me Hangin’ On”, originally done by The Supremes.
As I typed, I was goin’ on/16 at the time and I could see myself in Jamie’s place.

Onnyhoo, remember this? (I was always a sucker for bands with an organist.)

link to youtube.com

Scot Finlayson

UK Parliament Wed 8th

11.30 am

Oral questions, Scotland

usually a chance for the House Jocks (Murray,Bowie,Ross,Carmichael) to show their English masters how much they hate Scotland,

12.00 pm

Prime Minister’s Question Time

CameronB Brodie

Brian Doonthetoon
I did the BB for a short time then moved on to Sunday league football. That meant I had to join what used to be called a boy’s club, which would regularly involve itself in community fund raising events. I don’t think that community oriented outlook really leaves you.

I’m terrible at names, but I met a lady at one of our shindigs, who was connected with the Douglas Boys Club in Dundee. Apparently some of the old names are still active from when I was playing for them in my mid-teens. Remarkable.

terence callachan

Mist 001…

You can only vote in the Scottish independence referendum if you are living in Scotland

The link you put in your post refers to elections
There are different rules for elections
You can vote in general elections if you have lived in U.K. at some point during the last 15 years
But that 15 year rule does not apply to referendums
That’s why all the Scottish people living in England wales NI etc etc and overseas were not allowed to vote in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum

Boudicca

link to twitter.com
Ian Blackford today met the Sinn Fein MPs at Westminster to discuss referendums, amongst other things. Interesting!

Dan

Sorry to read about your brother Brian. Hope you are still feeling ok enough to attend the Glasgow march on Saturday.

A headline states “Soleimani was a monster, says Trump”

Hmm, some might consider a monster to be someone who okays an assassination on highly dubious legal grounds.
If the extremely graphic pictures I saw today of Soleimani after the strike are legit, then blowing and burning someone to bits IS the work of a monster.

Decent minded folk use diplomacy and legal channels to resolve conflicts, only fucking psychopaths resort to such violent atrocities.
This is just yet another reason for Scotland to end this shitey UK union asap and return to governing ourselves, because if we remain tied to the idiots governing the UK who will undoubtedly be looking to have closer ties to the US, then by association we’ll inevitably be getting dragged into more of this atrocious behaviour.
Warmongering…Not in my name.

Abulhaq

Donald Trump has indicated that if Iran retaliates for the murder of Gen Soleimani the US will bomb sites of cultural heritage in the country.
The Arab world ‘guy in street’ believes Islamic State was a US/Saudi/Qatari set up to ‘cull’ the Shia population of the region. For hemispheric strategic reasons the Americans want Arabs to be divided, to be weak and effectively leaderless as do the Saudis and their Gulf friends who also, like the Americans, want rid of Iranian influence. A perverse meeting of minds which spawned the self styled Caliphate an organization which, despite the religious rhetoric, at its height did no significant damage to American or Saudi Interests.
Trump, self proclaimed friend of Britain, is no friend of Scottish independence.

terence callachan

Dr Jim…well said 9.01pm

A nice post DrJim I agree wholeheartedly

Togetherness is what we need
Help those who need help
For whatever reason
Even if self inflicted
Nobody in their right mind inflicts harm on themselves

SNP doing a great job
Not quick enough for some folk
SNP are the only way we will get Scottish independence

I’m at the AUOB march Saturday looking forward to it a lot

Anyone on the 0749 train from Dundee fancy a blether on the way let me know

SNP are strong , clever , successful
Look at what they’ve done and all done with Westminster and it’s hangers on hampering SNP every inch of the way
But they the SNP can do it as they have shown over and over again

We are strong too don’t lose faith in SNP this is the time for holding together

terence callachan

Brian Doonthetoon…

It’s been a tough day for you
Sorry to hear about your brother

Liz g

Way OT
Seeing on Twitter Iran is attacking a US Base ??
Anybody heard?

jfngw

@Brian Doonthetoon

This is 1967 to me. It has the same free feeling as the above film.

link to youtube.com

terence callachan

CameronB Brodie.

Sunday boys club and BB
Brings back memories to me

My shins were in the BB Strathmartine church
I enjoyed watching the stuff they used to do and they enjoyed doing it
I did find the marching a bit over the top , they used to go to a wee church hall on Victoria street just down from Wallace town health centre for marching competitions.

My youngest son was in Dundee west u9,s from age 7 til he 16 then played junior for a couple of clubs til knee injuries ended that.
I managed a Dundee west team u9 through to u16 loved it great years in our life my wife Helen loved it too we regularly had six seven children back to our house on a Sunday we had a big garden so the football continued and my fridge emptied.
We went to the St. Andrews tournament every summer won it a couple of times and got to the quarter finals of the Scottish cup.
Actually I was secretary for the whole of Dundee west for a number of years
Great times

Dan

Aye Liz g, check out the #iran feed on twitter as does seem to be something going on at the moment.

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi terence callachan on 7 January, 2020 at 11:29 pm.

You typed,

“I’m at the AUOB march Saturday looking forward to it a lot
Anyone on the 0749 train from Dundee fancy a blether on the way let me know”

Chris and I are on the 9.10 Megabus from Dundee. Maybe catch up at Glasgow Green…

Also,
“It’s been a tough day for you
Sorry to hear about your brother”

The ßugger is that there is one space left in the family plot at Balgay, for an urn, and I thought I’d be taking it. My younger brother has usurped my position…

James Barr Gardner

sassenach says:
7 January, 2020 at 2:14 pm
Mist001

Yes, I think that ‘squeaky bum time’ for you is rapidly approaching.

Keep trying though, it’s all you have left!

It’s way by squeaky bum time it’s noo squelchy earse time !

Dr Jim

I’m a loser but we won: Ian Murray

Labour’s Ian Murray has a very principled stance on the 2019 General Election in Scotland, he says: The Tories are bad for Scotland the Lib Dems are no better, but when it comes to the SNPs mandate for an Independence referendum he says the SNP didn’t win the election in Scotland, the 3 UK parties won the election together which proves that Scotland prefers them to the SNP which means Scotland wants to be in the UK

So there you have it Ian Murray admits that everybody is bad but collectively they’re good, and that of course is even after Labour lost every MP bar him he claims Scotland still wants him and all the rest of them rather than the SNP

Ian Murray must have had to work his wee feeble TorLab mind overtime to spin that out for himself and hope enough idiots fall for it

CameronB Brodie

Terence callachan
I got to play in Scottish cup final, at under 14 or 16s, I think. Unfortunately both of my knees were pretty much gubbed by the age of 16, nadda cartilage. Pity, as I had a few pro teams interested in me.

Great times all the same.

———–

Brian Doonthetoon
Now that IS despicable. 😉

Mist001

@ terence callachan

That is emphatically NOT true. I was sent and returned, a postal vote for the 2014 independence referendum, so you are WRONG. Why do all you experts in Scottish soveriegnty and all this have such a poor understanding of your own doorstep?

Now, if I can be arsed and if you want to drag this out, then I’ll tell you that I have been on Facebook since 2010. Proof of my postal vote and participation in the 2014 independence referendum is in my Facebook archives. I can get them any time I desire and can prove that you are wrong.

Stop spreading lies.

Brian Doonthetoon

Definitely last comment for tonight.

Hi Mist001 on 8 January, 2020 at 12:06 am.

You typed,
“That is emphatically NOT true. I was sent and returned, a postal vote for the 2014 independence referendum”

Was this posted to an address in Scotland, or an address in France?

I understood that the 2014 referendum vote was limited to those of us who reside in Scotland.

Dr Jim

Better together says the UK as Ross Kemp does another programme on Englands murder rate by the use of guns
This week Birmingham is the place to go if you want shot dead in the street and Ross took us out and about dressed up in all the police protective gear as the armed officers (which have been doubled in England) broke down doors and recovered sawn off shotguns, automatic pistols and even the latest craze down there Uzi type submachine pistols which if you know weapons have all the accuracy of a drunken piss in an alley (every direction at once)

While the media in Scotland complained every night for a year about pigeons getting in an open windae in a hospital in Glasgow the English media were squashing the news that England is now the murder capital of Europe

But you know what was annoying about the whole programme, Kemp kept referring to London Birmingham and Liverpool as suburban UK never mentioning England once

I’ve known about this stuff for a long time because half my family are from the Midlands and you have to be John Wick to survive down there

yesbot

Brian Doonthetoon @
7 January, 2020 at 10:55 pm

Sorry to hear the news of your brother and your sad day. My condolences.

I do remember that great Vanilla Fudge track and good to see it getting some renewed interest since “Once Upon a Time in Hollywood”‘s release too!

Craig Murray

@BrianDoontheToon very sorry to hear of your loss. Must be dreadful to lose a sibling. I will raise a glass to him. Say hello on Saturday if you see me.

Scot Finlayson

Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people were entitled to vote in the referendum,

UK citizens who were resident in Scotland;

Citizens of other Commonwealth countries who were resident in Scotland;

Citizens of other European Union countries who were resident in Scotland;

Members of the House of Lords who were resident in Scotland;

Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the UK Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who were registered to vote in Scotland,

unless you were in the forces your main residence had to be Scotland.

Dr Jim

Tomorrow the UK government is to announce new rules and conditions for EU citizens residing in the new order Tory UK

Priti Patel’s been on the case again, let’s hope everyone has their Papiere or Reiseausweis als Passersatz or it’s off to the poky with you to be interviewed

Robert J. Sutherland

Brian Doonthetoon @ 21:39,

I would just like to add my sympathies to all the others. Losing close family members is a real wrench, because they are each and every one irreplaceable. Makes all those family & friends still around even more precious, though.

It’s all part of life’s great fabric – not that that makes it an iota easier to bear – but it’s something which all we “hangers-on” increasingly have to confront as we ourselves get on. I still find it a bit strange to be the most senior member of the near family for some years since. An unexpected kind of impostor syndrome, I suppose. =wry grin=

Big virtual hug for you, though.

Confused

Scot Nats should unambiguously support a NATO LED WAR FOR IRANIAN FREEDOM and lobby for the entire british army to be sent there

– conservative friends of israel, labour friends, libdem friends, the rabbis, howard marks, simon schama are on board, calling anyone who disagrees an ANTISEMITE who might as well have pushed anne frank into the gas chamber themselves, while dr mengele and emperor palpatine laughed

the british army, eager to strut their stuff, get stuck right in – trouble is the top brass think they are going to the dardanelles, which again, results in disaster for british arms as a lot of kebab salesmen rout them by pelting them with shoes; the remnants of the defeated legion are incinerated by american A-10s who mistake them for the taliban (- or was it revenge for the limeys burning down the white house?)

undefended, we push south – and no, we will not be turning back at derby

the scottish legions insert themselves stealthily, on stagecoach buses and eddie stobart lorries – once in place, we strike – drones shutdown heathrow, fireworks are set off down the tube, a massive EMP is set off next to the bank of england servers, causing the pound to be worth -negative_underflow dollars; the finance warriors cash in on the forex derivatives markets with massive short positions on the pound; the profits allow the YES movement to simply buy out all the oil corporations and the FTSE 100 companies.

– our online psychological warfare units strike – twitter posts are made by “afro caribbeans” insulting the prophet, similar posts by “muslims” insulting gypsies and naughty “gypsies” referring to black people of colour as “negroids” (in a bad way) … the resulting race war is a testament to the power of multiculturalism.

– our top hackers hit the motherlode – phil the greeks porn collection, which had been on super8 and dvd, but he ripped it all to his wifi network and used obsolete WPA encryption with the default password 1234

– the royal family is pwned with enough blackmail material of such disgusting perversion and hilarity that even prince andrew says : GRANDPA DUDE -youre a fucking perv …

– for added insult to injury and top bantz, the hackers replace the UKgov homepage with hilarious deep-faked vids adapted from pornhub featuring – royals, margaret thatcher, mountbattern, bojo … and the real joke is that the fakes are indistinguishable from the real stuff on big phils laptop

– smashed their army, sent the country into chaos with divide and conquer, caused an economic meltdown, blackmailed the powerful bending them to our will, then buying out everything they have for next to nothing … (we have learned well from our enemies)

and efter that, the gemme wiz oors

Stoker

terence callachan wrote on 7 January, 2020 at 11:16 pm:- “There are different rules for elections. You can vote in general elections if you have lived in U.K. at some point during the last 15 years. But that 15 year rule does not apply to referendums.”

Never knew about this until now, feckin’ disgraceful if true and absolutely nothing democratic about it. If you leave a place to live elsewhere you have no right to be deciding what goes on in that place you’ve just left, regardless of reasons for doing so.

It’s akin to the very corrupt voting system installed at Holyrood and the system that allows failures, rejected by the electorate, to be given promotions into the House of Lords where they will decide what happens to the very folk who rejected them.

Roll on indy! Is it too much to want to live in a proper democracy where politicians are answerable to the electorate and where failure and corruption is never tolerated or rewarded in any shape, manner or form?

Sometimes i wish i had committed to another lifestyle rather than the fight for Scottish independence because sometimes, just sometimes, i despise and love Scotland in equal measure and *that* takes its toll.

15 Years! FFS! Who was responsible for introducing that rule?

Reluctant Nationalist

I see The National has spunked its load by publishing a story giving credibility to the idea that Iran was responsible for Lockerbie, because of tenuous inference from a tweet.

Remember this.

Capella

Now that Confused, 12.49, has broadcast the secret masterplan B , we can all declare victory and relax.

Breeks

Derek MacKay upset about his budget proposals in March.

I think that’s SNP Code for “We’re not planning any surprises over your unconstitutional subjugation in three weeks. It’s capitulation all the way for you Scotland!, but do remember to vote for us in 2021, because who else you gonna vote for?”.

And folks say the SNP doesn’t communicate… sheesh.

Breeks

Pity Saturday’s March isn’t in Edinburgh. We could end it at Holyrood and ceremoniously raze it to the ground.

Would that qualify as civil disobedience?

Abulhaq

Ian Blackford is apparently ratcheting up on Indie2. The Scots opposed to independence should have it graphically put to them just what a collection of post imperial, British state dependency junkies they are. These delusionals need rough treatment. Deploy it now Mr Blackford.

Davie Oga

Stoker

Every EU country except Czech Republic allows it’s citizens to vote from abroad. Ireland has restrictions in that you must intend to return to the Republic. No EU countries allow non citizens to vote in national elections or referendums.

You’ll find that normal countries don’t reduce nationality to a “state of mind” or a “feeling’. It is who you legally are.
Scotgov policy is an aberration in this regard. Well meaning perhaps, but an aberration nonetheless.

Tatu3

Sorry to hear about the loss of your brother Briandoonthetoon. My sister died in 2017 and I miss her and think about her all the time, but it does get easier and my thoughts are about the very happy times we had together as children and grown ups.

TheBuchanLoony

Reluctant Nationalist@7.25am…if you did the slightest research about the Lockerbie bombing you would know that it was Iran’s ‘Eye for an eye’ revenge for the USS Vincennes’s shooting down of an Iranian Airbus six months earlier killing 290 men, women and children in the Persian Gulf. Iran paid the PLFP to do it. Mr Al-Megrahi was innocent…that is why we released him.

Robert J. Sutherland

Confused @ 00:49,

Are you well…?

Robert J. Sutherland

While we’re delving in the media archives, Stu, how about some reminder quotes from the usual suspects back in ’79 and ’97 about what an almighty disaster that scary radical devolution notion would turn out to be…?

callmedave

@Briandoonthetoon.

Belated condolences to you and yours on the death of your brother.

K1

Mist?

Did you get your postal vote for 2014 sent to France or where you resident in Scotland at that time?

You’ve not made that clear, no point in getting bent out of shape when there is a mixed message regarding ‘you’ stating that you received a postal vote and at the same time stating that you have been living in France for a while, just clarify it and then you don’t have to attack others for pointing out an incongruity?

Cheers

K1

Oh…and you did go on to state emphatically what the rules are regarding ‘elections’ for those living abroad, as others have pointed out, this criteria didn’t apply to indyref1.

No one is ‘meaning’ to ‘accuse’ you, but even you can see that it does raise a question, if you were in France and received a postal vote it can only be that you are or were in the ‘forces’ which is fine too btw, but maybe you should have led with that to prevent confusion?

callmedave

Shortbread Gary not giving Derek Mackay any cuttings this morning on the news that the Scottish budget to be delayed.

But!…but Gary…WM!

But Gary wasn’t having it. 🙁

Mind you he was equally harsh with Michelle Ballantyne vying to oust Jackson Carcrash for the top Tory job in Scotland.

He went about exposing her not so nice views on social issues but she soldiered on regardless like a teflon Tory should.

He must’ve got out the wrong side of the bed in the early hours.

PS:
10,000 Australian camels getting the hump because they’re to be shot for drinking too much water from the billabongs.

Farmers say sheep come first. Camels say BAAAD! 🙁

SilverDarling

O/T

Scottish Questions coming up at 11.30 am.

Mhairi Black is the new Shadow Scottish Secretary, will she get a question for Alister Jack or will it be a Tory pile on of ‘Scotland is pish’ today to get in the right mood for PMQs? Will Johnston even turn up?

This wee gem about failing schools in England would be worth having to hand for the inevitable schools jibe.

link to archive.is

SilverDarling

@BrianDoonTheToon

Just to add my condolences on the loss of your brother.

Capella

I wonder how many members of the armed forces abroad were sent postal ballots in Indyref1? There were 800,000 postal ballots, if I remember correctly. But then a similar number of people were removed from the voting roll the following year. The magic number 800,000 seemed to crop up in a number of guises around Indyref1. Were there not 800,000 spare ballots printed in case of accidental damage?

Perhaps the Electoral Commission, instead of inventing lengthy and spurious “lead in” periods uniquely for Scottish referendums, could investigate the liklihood of postal ballot fraud?

Gary45%

TheBuchanloony@10.46
Accusations on the PLFP, show me the proof, official documents will do, if not take a look at your Zionist chums.

CameronB Brodie

Robert J. SutherlanD
Can’t find your sense of humour today? I personally though the post hilarious, and had to gag my laughter so as not to wake the rest of the house. I don’t really see much point in sugar coating reality for the timid. Good intentions become harmful if they mask reality. Satire, not so much.

Gary45%

The Buchanloony,
Have a wee look at a programme that was aired on the BBC after Indy round about 2015 called Planet Oil it was a 3 part series on the dirty deeds of the empire, especially part2.

Sinky

Omg Alistair Jack is really hopeless and out of his depth.

However SNP MPs need to challenge the £13 bn deficit claims

Reluctant Nationalist

@ Buchan Loony

The slightest research? Like how Megrahi was released on ‘compassionate’ grounds to somewhat heroically return to a country that would very soon be the target of a campaign of NATO-enforced regime change? One might suspect it more likely he was released and repatriated for how useful he could/would be, grateful to be reunited with family before he died of his illness in 2012, rather than the powers-that-be throwing their hands up and saying, ‘Yup time to let this one go, we just can’t go on pretending it wasn’t Iran.’ Or maybe how suspect Razzaq Khreesat was funded by the CIA?

It may well have been Iran, but more than the absence of evidence where there’s still a shadow of doubt, the story in The National stinks of opportunistic manipulation; and it gives no lip service to the notion that it may just possibly be reaching a bit – none whatsoever. But ok, if your ‘research’ which led you to your confident conclusion contains irrefutable facts from dispassionate parties with no horse in the race, please enlighten me. Genuinely interested. 🙂

Sinky

Scottish Questions is really dire and up pops Ian Union Jacket Murray to say Scotland is too poor to join the EU and nods approvingly with Alister Jack’s response

CameronB Brodie

Gary45%
What you believe Zionism to be, probably won’t correspond with how a Rabbi might see it. Zionism is a spectrum of metaphysical and political positions that ranges from humanist spiritualism to racist nationalism. Please be a bit more careful when critiquing the culture of others.

Reluctant Nationalist

If I were a rich man
Daidle deedle daidle
Daidle daidle deedle daidle dumb

All day long I’d oy-vey reeeeee
‘Til I got the killing done

CameronB Brodie

Reluctant Nationalist
So you really want us to believe you’re not simply a racist twat?

Blair Paterson

The truth is 12 Israelites were accused of raping a girl in Cypres and in America Wein stein is accused of raping women as well and we had prince Andrews friend accused of the same thing and committing suicide so they say ??? Now that is facts not,anti Semetic the Jews are murdering the Palestinians and stealing their land again that is proven facts so it has got to the stage where telling the truth is classed as anti Semetic trying to hide behind saying people are condemning you because of your religion is no excuse for doing wrong as I said you are always the victim you are never to blame.???

SilverDarling

Joanna Cherry giving a calm and considered address proposing the amendments to the EU withdrawal bill. True to her word she is highlighting the democratic deficit for Scotland and the tension that now exists should be a warning to braying Tories.

Reluctant Nationalist

Keep it coming m8.

CameronB Brodie

Reluctant Nationalist
You are so obvious.

Grey Gull

Watched PMQ and now watching politics live and blood pressure rising. The “once in a generation line” being spouted all over the place. Alyn Smith had a perfect opportunity to nip it in the bud. Does anyone have a succinct way of trying to refute this statement. It’s doing my heid in.

CameronB Brodie

Back on topic.

How Europeans View and Evaluate Democracy
Democratic Legitimacy

Concepts, Measures, Outcomes
link to oxfordscholarship.com

Reluctant Nationalist

Somone needs to be obvious, Brodie.

CameronB Brodie

Reluctant Nationalist
At least I have the balls to post under my real name. Pussy.

CameronB Brodie

I’m not suggesting the EU does not suffer from its own problems with establishing its own democratic legitimacy, but at least the EU attempts to adhere to the principles of democratic accountability and constitutional justice. Westminster, not so much.

Identifying sources of democratic legitimacy: A multilevel analysis
link to sciencedirect.com

Reluctant Nationalist

That’s not your real name. You spooky little boi. 🙂

But as I said, keep it coming.

Gary45%

CameronB Brodie.
Not trying to cause you any offence, but on a personal situation, I have witnessed self proclaimed Zionists (at least they claimed to be)celebrating the continued situation in the barbaric war crimes and genocide against the Palestinian people, caused by the Israeli government.
I’ve personally heard their defence of “we give them water” to try and justify Israel’s actions. (and when asked if they meant dogs or humans? they laughed) I agree not all Zionist are like that, but there are some.
Maybe I have been unfortunate in just meeting the “latter type” you mentioned.

There are many decent Rabbis who are calling out the very actions I refer to, unfortunately the whole discussion on any criticism (however small)towards Israel is deemed anti Semitic.
History / Geography books are getting rewritten every day to suit the narrative.
Today another piece of Palestinian will be wiped from the map, because its been illegally stolen by Israel. tomorrow will be the same and on it goes, it never ends until Palestine disappears altogether.

manandboy

Holyrood v Westminster

Self-determination v Colonial determination.

Self-government v Colonial suppression exploitation & plunder.

Scottish flyweight v English gangland Sumo-wrestler.

CameronB Brodie

This is kind of my thing, as well. Sorry, I couldn’t find an open access, though I didn’t look particularly hard.

Democratic Dilemmas of Multilevel Governance

Multilevel Legitimacy: Conceptualizing Legitimacy Relationships between the EU and National Democracies
link to link.springer.com

CameronB Brodie

Gary45%
Everyone has their own views and I’m not trying to tell you what to think. The situation is dreadful, agreed. But it is very complex and so a broad brush isn’t really appropriate, from an ethical perspective anyway.

CameronB Brodie

Everuone who has met me, let’s all laugh at Reluctant Nationalist. Ha ha.

manandboy

Ursula von der Leyen – open, friendly and generous.
Mr Johnson PM – defensive, dishonest and greedy, oh and xenophobic, naturally. Did I mention superior and entitled?

link to archive.ph (The Guardian)

Ursula von der Leyen: UK deadline makes full Brexit deal impossible
EU commission chief questions Johnson’s timeframe as she arrives for Downing Street talks

The president of the European commission has said it will be “impossible” for the UK to negotiate a comprehensive deal covering all aspects of Brexit within the timeframe set by Boris Johnson.

Speaking before her first face-to-face bilateral meeting with the prime minister in Downing Street on Wednesday, Ursula von der Leyen said the price of the clean-break Brexit the prime minister is pursuing was a “distant” partnership with the EU.

Unless the UK accepted a level playing field in the UK and EU’s trade positions after Brexit, there would inevitably be barriers for British manufacturing, she said in a speech at the London School of Economics.

Advertisement
At the same event, the EU’s Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier, warned in an impromptu exchange that leaving the EU was not a simple process and involved renegotiation of “600 international agreements” as well as the new free trade agreement.

“It is basically impossible to negotiate all,” said Von der Leyen.

She said the EU would prioritise the elements of a deal to prevent the UK crashing out of the EU on World Trade Organization rules.

Sign up to our Brexit weekly briefing
Read more
But she said the closer the UK could remain to the EU, the better the chance of a deal that would avert a cliff edge.

“The more divergence there is the more distant the partnership has to be,” she said.

“Without an extension of the transition period beyond 2020, you cannot expect to agree on every single aspect of our new partnership.

“Without the freedom of movement of people, you cannot have the free movement of capital, goods and services.

“Without a level playing field on environment, labour, taxation and state aid, you cannot have highest-quality access to the world’s largest single market.”

Johnson has already indicated he wants to break with EU rules and regulations to achieve the clear “sovereignty” he believes Brexit supporters voted for.

CameronB Brodie

Sorry, my own critical faculties deserted me there. Nobody that I have met through WOS, can really vouch for my true identity. That’s why I post so many links, so that folk don’t have to trust me. They can rely on Oxbridge and MIT instead.

Abulhaq

@Blair Paterson
If there can be claims to land, the Judaic claim is historically rather stronger. The territory of the old kingdom of Israel was invaded by the Romans but remained culturally Jewish. As it did under the Christian Byzantines as converts were mainly Jews. Arabs were an insignificant, mostly mercantile, minority.
The conquest by the peninsular Arabs of the Levant in the 7th century allowed Aramaic speaking Jews and Christians relative civil and religious freedom, however in the 9th century under the Abbasids and Fatimids that changed. Arabic was promoted, the Jizya tax, paid by non Muslims, was enforced and the second class civil status of the Dhimmi also.
The demographic of the territory changed too. Expropriated land was given to Arab Muslim settlers who functioned as rent farmers destroying the economy as a result. Some Christians and Jews started to leave and there was also an inflow of Muslims from other parts of the Dar al Islam, including the Balkans and Kurdistan.
Subsequently the region went into mere subsistence mode, stagnation and provincial irrelevance. In the 19th century the Ottomans allowed Jewish resettlement from Europe as a means of reviving the stagnant economy.
The rest we know about.
This is a highly complex issue and not one for the blame game. No one emerges with squeaky clean hands. The Palestinians have had a raw deal but they haven’t exactly been too politically clever.

manandboy

‘Once in a generation’ is a piece of pure propaganda. If the SNP MPs can’t refute this flimsy argument by the Unionists in the House of Commons, then they are not doing their preparation.

And you know what they say on that score :
Failing to prepare –
Is preparing to fail.

Deeply disappointing.

CameronB Brodie

Reluctant Nationalist
If you knew me, you’d appreciate how unsuited I am to being a spook. Silly person. And if you have a PhD in Psychology, I’m a forty foot, albino, gorilla.

CameronB Brodie

Trains as a town planner and gets mistaken for a spook. I’m still chuckling. 🙂

Liz g

Cameron B Brodie @ 2.06
Oh I don’t know Cameron . :.)

Effijy

Received a great WhatsApp that has a video of Trump proposing on Nov 16 2011 that Obama
Is looking to start a fake war with Iran just to get himself re-elected.

Just who’s idea has this been for over 8 years Donald?

Dr Jim

@Grey Gull 1:02pm

The opposition’s case is that a figure of speech in Scotland must be taken literally but a figure of speech in England is only a figure of speech other wise why are journalists and the opposition not demanding the death of Boris Johnson, because after all he did say he would rather die in a ditch if he failed in his deal, he did fail and did not die

We have every right to demand that Johnson keep his promise

Throughout his campaign Jeremy Corbyn also used the *once in a lifetime* chance to vote out the Tories nobody expects that the Labour party will never stand again for election to parliament for a generation and no journalists will pose the question because it was a figure of speech and they accept that

The opposition wiith the assistance and promotion of the media will parrot this line from now to kingdom come because they have to impress upon their supporters and the more dense amongst us that whatever is said by anyone in Scotland means what they say it means

Today in Holyrood the Scottish government will vote against the EU withdrawal bill as instructed by Scotlands voters but you will hear the BBC and others in Scotland inform you that the Tories will carry on regardless thus ignoring the population of Scotland, but there’s every likelyhood that you won’t hear that on the so called national big news that covers England, because they don’t care about listening to that

So England listens to what it wants to listen to and disregards what they don’t

The people of England believe themselves to be the UK in all of it’s entirety, it’s not their fault, they just don’t know any better because they’ve been brainwashed to believe that and the very existence of Scotland is pretty alien to them, a place they’re never likely to go and never think about unless somebody mentions the idea of Scotland leaving their UK then they get all irate about losing some of their property that they’d forgotten about, y’know like the zoo isn’t going to be there anymore so nowhere to take their kids that they had never taken them before anyway

England has no respect for Scotland or Scottish people in the same way they have none for other foreigners in the rest of the world, because they’ve been trained that way

Scotland does’nt exist until you remind them it does and they immediately think, nuisances meh

Three hundred years of brainwashing, training a people to believe their existence as a people is superior to that of others, America uses the same system, because remember the English taught them how

CameronB Brodie

Liz g
Not you as well. 🙂

Reluctant Nationalist

*yawn*

You can do better than that. Keep it coming.

Dan

@Effijy at 2.20pm

Sounds like you’re describing this clip.

link to twitter.com

Dr Jim

The FM is in Oslo today and you can see and read everything she’s doing there on her Twitter account, there is video as well
The FM is meeting business leaders, addressing a conference on climate change and meeting the Prime Minister of Norway for discussions

If you read the comments BTL you will see how the opposition and England regard Norway and it’s people and of course their opinion on Scotlands FM being there

An average of 72% of BTL trolling comments on the FMs twitter come from England

kapelmeister

England wants to be a lot less European. Voted in a hard-right English nationalist government. A government that wants Scotland to be a lot less Scottish and a lot less democratic. A Scotland with no free choice on our relations with Europe.

Labour is a bad joke and now an intelligent politician free zone. The Windsors are pathetic and sad. Westminster is a club for the class of people who’ve never had a job outside of politics. The mainstream media is corrupt and lacks all integrity.

Since it’s all a sorry mess in the UK……Scotland should have a Once in a Degeneration indyref.

Dan

Any talking head mentioning once in a liftetime generation can go and do one.
Have they never heard of buyer’s regret, or consumer rights that quick in if you have been mis-sold a product.
“Vote No to stay in the EU” they said in 2014, well that didn’t work out for us as plan.

Just remind anyone spouting this OIAG line that there’s been a material change of circumstance, and that material is of the fecal type, produced by England shitting in the UK bed, and thus Scotland has the right to choose to get out from the stinking shit stained UK blanket.

Dr Jim

Birmingham is the gun murder capital of Europe followed by London yet on the national news all they report is a Scottish politician 5 years ago using a common figure of speech that they themselves use daily to reinforce a ridiculous argument that Scottish people should have no choice over their lives and futures

England rules OK

Sinky

BBC Scotland Politics show fails to show Alister Jack’s gaffe over EU vote in Scotland and his dire performance. Also failed to show Ian Murray’s Better Together act agreeing with Tory Jack.

Dan

Weird crazyness. My previous post submitted itself with altered wording.

What I actually wrote:
“Any talking head mentioning once in a lifetime generation can go and do one.
Have they never heard of buyer’s regret, or consumer rights that kick in if you have been mis-sold a product.
“Vote No to stay in the EU” they said in 2014, well that didn’t work out for us as plan.

Just remind anyone spouting this OIAG line that there’s been a material change of circumstance, and that material is of the fecal type, produced by England shitting in the UK bed, and thus Scotland has the right to choose to get out from under the stinking shit stained UK blanket.”

mountain shadow

From watching Scottish questions and Prime Minister’s questions at Westminster it is crystal clear that neither a Section 30 will be provided and neither will Westminster “give” Holyrood the power to hold referendums.

Therefore, Nicola, what are you going to do?

Liz g

Cameron B Brodie @ 2.22
Keeps the mystery 🙂
And have you ever noticed the women on here never get called that?
Troll yes…. 00 anything…. not so much.. LOL

james mallon

can someone explain, alyn. smith could not.Sent this to him and got a reply to contact someone else (not his remit)

Mon 18/11/2019 14:38
alyn.smith@europarl.europa.eu ?

Can you explain a subject that is lingering in the back of my mind.
While researching materials and facts that give me a good idea to reach a political decision, I have stumbled on a subject of European Workers Rights.
The example (1 off many) of the Asda Supermarket changing contracts and treating staff poorly seem a no goer if the European Legislation was worth its salt.

Why should I vote stay in Europe if the Organisation of Asda can do this treatment of its staff. Where is the European Workers Rights or is it mythical.
I do not shop in Asda and never have since their public stance on Scottish Independence

Sinky

BBC Scotland’s reflection on Scotland’s representation at Westminster has interview with Labour and Lib Dem peers while Foulkes uses it to attack SNP.

Their normal balance reflecting SNP 48 seats, Tory 6 Lib Dems 4 and ONE Labour MP will be one each from Tory, Labour and Lib Dem against a sole SNP MP.

Yet BBC and other London media completely ignore the third largest grouping in House of Commons in UK wide programmes.

And in Scotland with MSPs the BBC has three unionists against SNP and ignore the Greens who have more MSPs than Lib Dems.

BBC Scotland still sees politics through a London centric prism.

james mallon

Ref Nepotism, a lighthearted observation but irritating.

Repeatedly shown on TV BBC Scotland channel 9, it implies Glasgow Central Station is deep in the malpractice of Nepotism, is this not against employment law especially if your sister gets offered a job without an interview.
Just as bad is repeated advertising of Children’s Lottery with Sean Batty making a killing, the advertising must cost a fortune.
Charity….. a scam for business to make a killing for the rich folk and avoid tax.Avoid charity unless you see their financial accounts.

CameronB Brodie

OK. I’m a spambot under the control of the Kremlin. It’s a fair cop.

Restoring Accountability in Multilevel Governance
Paper prepared for the ECPR Joint Session Workshop; Workshop 5
“Governance and Democratic Legitimacy”

First Draft
link to ecpr.eu

Robert J. Sutherland

james mallon @ 15:02,

Well, firstly Alyn Smith is no longer an MEP. But while she remains, Aileen McLeod might well be able to help. She is very assiduous. MSPs do get an incredible amount of email, though.

The other source to which you should certainly turn, and which AS might have been assuming, is the relevant EU commissioner. They do respond to requests and situation information from individuals. I did that once over an issue with non-compliant eBay payment policy in Germany, which (oddly enough) was sorted fairly soon thereafter.

None of which, though, need have any influence on your political view over independence. Unless, that is, you’re just casting around for sticks with which to beat up the SNP.

Dan Watt

There we are folks, both Alister Jack and Boris Johnson have said no sect. 30 powers for Scotland. Saying “It would be wrong to hand constitutional powers to the Scottish Parliament”.

Everything panning out as Stu has predicted so far.

WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

Robert J. Sutherland

mountain shadow @ 14:59,

Oh, puhleeze, give us a break. Do you repetitious monomaniacal moaners work in weekly rotas or something?

I suggest a teensy-weenzy bit more patience, then you might have your question answered. You think this thing is going away?

Gary45%

CameronB Brodie@2.06
“Forty foot albino gorilla”
Were you in Tesco’s yesterday?

Dr Jim

Johnson still has’nt replied by letter as is required by law, whatever the next step is will come then and after the 31st January, the FM repeated her aim of a referendum this year just two days ago so only three weeks to go then we’ll know something I guess

How could Johnson say that anyway, is he still alive? he promised he’d be dead by now, everybody heard him

james mallon

Ref,winifred mccartney on the 7th.This may help historical understanding.

Ref, Rabbie Burns part of the Scottish Enlightenment that Educated the world.
Quote.
Bought and sold for English gold, parcel of Rogues in a Nation.

The minority ruling classes that BoJo represents, their honesty and integrity is overwhelmed by treating all the world as savages and tribes.
The only Christian sense I can think of is,
“what doeth it profit a man if he gains the whole world and fk it all up by greed leading to global warming and fkn the planet”

Drone Over Scotland

Robert J. Sutherland

Dan Watt @ 15:20,

Likewise to my reply @ 15:25. If you think such a response wasn’t anticipated, you are either still politically wet behind the ears or you just haven’t been paying attention.

Even a large and growing swathe of the politically-aware of England now fully expects us to have that referendum before long. And depart.

Grey Gull

Thanks for the replies to my question. I agree with all of them. What I’d like is a simple, polite way of explaining to soft No voters. Like the idea of the comparison of it being a figure of speech with Boris’s “die in the ditch” figure of speech. Also the idea of consumer rights, not getting what you bought (voted for). Also, think something has to be said about it not being written in stone. Just wish someone would come up with a couple of simple sentences that could be used every time this OIAG line is spouted. I haven’t heard a single person on the Yes side counter it.

jfngw

Ian Murray seems to be Union Jack’s bitch, feeding him questions that may have well have been provided by the Tory party. Only thing missing was his Union flag suit, elected British Nationalist Scottish MP’s standing up for England.

Fireproofjim

Grey Gull
A simple riposte is the one used by Westminster politicians.
“ no Government is obliged to be bound by the policies of their the preceding administration”.

CameronB Brodie

Gary45%
Sorry, that wisnae me, I’m banned fae Tesco. (joke) 🙂

Liz g

Just Putting this out there. .. in the interests of
“No Taxation without Representation”
How about a Council Tax Strike by Yes Voter’s?
We voted in December for a Referendum and we won.
Westminster won’t get the paperwork done.
Holyrood won’t find another route.
Local Council’s float non cooperation.
No voter’s don’t want to vote.
We could tell Westminster,Holyrood, Local Authorities and the losers of the 2019 election we won’t pay any more Council Tax till we get the Referendum we voted for!
We should be clear that we will only back date payment till the date of the announcement of the vote ( so the quicker the better ) and only pay up the day after it happens.
British Nationalists can continue to pay if they want!
They can pay twice to make up for the other half of Scotland too if their Unions that Precious.
We will still have parity.. Or not… of services with No voter’s
Let’s see how quick they all think a generation is then!
Matter of weeks I’d say!

james mallon

Robert J. Sutherland
Robert I do not beat up anyone even with sticks, I thought the question was simple for a politician. I referred to a WEE BLEU BOOK and he has a email address to contact.
I noticed you did not answer the queerie and noticed the political swerve just as Alyn Smith.
Do straight answers to simple questions make politicians feel uncomfortable, and I mean across the political spectrum.
On your sarky remark on stick beating, well sad, sad,sad.
You must be pleased with yourself monitoring comments, there is a bit of the Miss Jean Brodie about your comments without foundation.
I will comment on how I see the world, you so far have irritated.
If you can not answer a simple question please do not comment on some mythical emotional whim.
My SNP sympathy is slightly deteriorating
Can someone enlightened, give me an answer. I could spend 5 mins on internet but thought this forum would make it simple.
As for Robert, no need to reply. Get yourself a whisky, chill out son.

Brian Doonthetoon

More thanks for your sentiments re: my brother.

Grey Gull

Fireproofjim. Thanks. That might be ok, but it was said by Alex and/or Nicola as part of the Yes campaign, so not really the policies of a government. Also, some of the soft no’s I know would struggle with words like preceding. I suppose I’d like something that points out it was a figure of speech, not written in stone – another figure of speech :-). Also, that things have changed.

CameronB Brodie

Grey Gull
The British constitution is morally justified through the equal legal recognition and treatment of Scotland and England. This is guaranteed by constitutional law, which can’t be amended by an off-the-cuff remark made during a political interview. It is ludicrous to suggest the personal opinion of one individual can over-ride constitutional due process. Pure smoke and mirrors intended to deceive.

Grey Gull

Liz g @ 3.49

Like your way of thinking!

Grey Gull

CameronB Brodie. I agree. It’s just how to explain that in simple terms to other folk. I never hear it being challenged on the media by anyone on the Yes side.

Abulhaq