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Waiting for engines

Posted on November 22, 2022 by

So what are we expecting at 9.45am tomorrow, folks?

What will be the Supreme Court's verdict?

  • No decision because the Referendum Bill is only a draft (56%, 848 Votes)
  • Holyrood does NOT have the power (38%, 578 Votes)
  • Holyrood has the power to hold a referendum on independence (4%, 62 Votes)
  • Other (please specify in comments) (1%, 18 Votes)

Total Voters: 1,506

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    118 to “Waiting for engines”

    1. Gav says:

      Hey Stuart,

      Is there any update on indypishsupertall2a.jpg at all?

      Cheers.

    2. Chris Avery says:

      I think the Supreme Court will decide it has nothing to do with them, as there is no legal question being asked.

      That the Scottish Government can ask the Scottish electorate whatever they like providing there is no legal ramifications of the question they’re asking.

    3. Geoff Anderson says:

      Looks like it will not be any surprise to Wings followers!

    4. Andrew says:

      I doubt it will be because its draft. It was explicitly referred by the lord advocate. So if that provision is not valid, then the Scotland Act isn’t valid.

    5. 100%Yes says:

      I think the UKG will want to put Scotland in its place and SC will say Holyrood doesn’t have the power to hold referendums.

      All that will happen is we will continue like we have for the next 8yrs and more with the SNP saying Westminster bad and we need to make it work for Scotland. This is what we have to look forward to, where as we should be calling for Sturgeon to resign as FM and the Indy movement needs a new leader who’ll deliver.

    6. 100%Yes says:

      What ever happens tomorrow Sturgeon will destroy it, just to spite Alex Salmond.

    7. GMac_Dod says:

      I do believe the Supreme Court hinted to the Lord Advocate that if the Scottish Government were to table a bill and it was passed they would be unlikely to judge against it.

      It will go the same way as the Peoples AS30, no Bill no judgement.

      I don’t care what anyone says, nobody is that stuipid! Which only means this has been a deliberate timewasting exercise.

    8. Doug says:

      Westminster law must be broken if Scotland is to regain its independence. A few months ago I emailed SNP centre offering to go to prison in the place of any SNP poltician who can find the guts to publicly break any Westminster law which is openly anti Scottish in nature and practice. SNP head office has not replied. Maybe they thought I was only joking.

    9. Scott Wilson says:

      They’ll punt as a premature application. They’ll make some obiter remarks that the Lord Advocate is correct not to certify the bill as it clearly relates to the Union – the best evidence for that being the SNP’s own submission (which may turn out to be one of the biggest political own goal’s ever!).

    10. David Hannah says:

      She can’t build ferries.

      She can’t pass referendum supreme court hearings.

      Nicola better get the Baby Box out tomorrow, her spin Doctors are going to need a lie down.

    11. G-Man says:

      I’m thinking it’ll be….

      No decision as premature with no bill upon which to determine judgement, but with an expressed caveat that on the arguments presented Holyrood would not have the power as matter reserved.

      For the record, I’m often wrong.

    12. aLurker says:

      Other (please specify in comments)

      This court, which is Tony Blairs modern invention, is not a legitimate forum in which to judge an question of Scotts Law.The convention of English Parliamentary Sovereignty is entirely foreign to the Scotts jurisdiction.

      The people of Scotland are the ultimate sovereign decider above the Politicians in Scotland and the United Kingdom. They have repeatedly democratically voted for political parties that promised a referendum and thus it must be delivered.

      This court cannot impose a political decision on the People in the jurisdiction of Scotland.

      Hah!
      Fat chance of the above.
      Wrong court. Wrong question. Wrong leader. Wrong strategy.

      🙁

    13. Astonished says:

      I think Sturgeon and her transcult gave the English supreme court a big hint by their response to Martin Keating’s court case. And their choice of loyal lord advocate.

      When the decision becomes public – I hope Sturgeon is forced out.

      Sturgeon hopes she can still placate enough people by yet another cry for ‘just one more mandate’. I don’t think this will fly.

      I think as soon as they say there won’t be a referendum – they are finished. The question then is what are we going to do with the cowardly SNP MSPs and MPs ?

    14. Shauny Boy says:

      It’s been a time wasting exercise from start to finish. I’ll leave it to individual judgment to decide whether or not that time wasting has been deliberate and malicious, or as a result of incompetence.
      I ken what I think.

    15. Independent says:

      I take it that is Waiting for engines.
      To REV UP!!
      GO get them Stu!
      Frighten the S##t out the lazy troughers.

    16. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      VOTED: OTHER.

      Reason, this is a stalling process. Lawyers are experts at procrastination.

      Procrastination means bigger legal fees.

      Has nobody noticed how OBSCENELY HIGH LEGAL FEES AND COURT COSTS ARE?

      The Rev does. He has scars on his back from the ridiculous cost level and bizarre decision of the kangaroo bollock eating Kezia Dugdale case. What did happen to all the Celebrity/jungle money she was going to give to her “friend” who was dying of MND? And folk wonder if there is anything that the Rev would be interested in writing about as Wings comes back to life.

      Craig Murray faired worse. High legal fees and imprisonment.

      Craig is still raising legal fees in an effort to clear his name.

      So on topic… tomorrow, some obscure reason will be found to kick this into the long grass (that is NOT covered by Rev Stu’s menu vote).

      The only sure thing is that this case will result in over a million pounds of taxpayers’ money getting spread around some already very wealthy lawyers whilst they get seriously overpaid to play at being a debating society as was the case at whatever prestigious university they went to.

      The whole thing is rigged.

      As most sane folk would eventually conclude, the WILL of the citizens of the nation of Scotland should trump anything and everything else.

    17. Derek says:

      9.45? There’ll be Colditz on Radio 4. Funny how all the war stuff seems to re-surface in November…

    18. handclapping says:

      Other

      “related to the Union” is, like the “Sewell Convention” a political phrase and
      not justiciable.

      This is because evrything permitted or retained in the Scotland Act, even the existance of the Holyrood Parliament, is related to the Union. As the Act is a permissive Act and the UK retains the power to stop any action it does not approve the Scottish Government can attempt to do what it wants and the Crown in Parliament can negate it if it so desires without recourse to the Courts

    19. Froster says:

      Whatever the outcome tomorrow I predict not much action of substance will follow

    20. Miss Babington says:

      Sugar Puffs.

    21. Neil Mackenzie says:

      There can’t be a judgement on the referendum bill because there isn’t the referendum bill doesn’t exist at this time and by the time it would exist there would inevitably have been tweaks and amendments making it distinct from how it is currently envisioned. It should never have been accepted as a case by the Supreme Court for that reason, alone, as well as an exclusively Scottish matter exclusively involving the people of Scotland not being any of the Supreme Court’s business, anyway.

      There is a take-away to be made from ‘no judgement’ forthcoming, though. It means the idea that there currently are any laws prohibiting the people of Scotland making the choice to be independent (or not) is a figment of hysterical mass media imagination. Such laws do not exist and have never existed.

    22. Hackalumpoff says:

      Some recipes for tomorrow from our chums at the Beeb: https://archive.ph/2ah0x

    23. Geoff Anderson says:

      The Supreme Court verdict must be bad…..the baby boxes have been dragged out again!
      https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1594973206393266177?s=20&t=pvZyBh1jZrmOCAFkGP5D_Q

    24. MWS says:

      My gut instinct says some kind of non-judgement. In effect a fudge that takes nobody any further forward ( on either side of the debate) but costs an absolute fortune in legal fees.

    25. Geri says:

      No bill presented to make a judgement on.

    26. K Campbell says:

      “other”
      paraphrasing what I think the court would Like to say
      “you are a region of England therefore, no referendum for you as this would have to be decided by Westminster”
      Translation- GTF Scotland, you are a colony but we won’t say that as it would give you a great argument to get out of this hell hole WM have created and we need your resources cos we screwed it up big time.
      What they will actually say is. we’re really sorry, but as you know, since the bill is in draft, we cannot make a decision on hypothesis. thanks for your time. Come back when you actually have a published bill

    27. Benjamin Harrop says:

      Other:

      Related to Keating’s judgement of it being a draft bill and also the precedent it would set of a LA in the devolved nations being unsure of the law refering to the SC all the time. Doubt the SC would want this.

      Will refuse but give a non-binding judgement of illegal, but still make a case for political compromise.

    28. Cath says:

      I think they’ll give the exact same judgement as the Keatings case: no bill so can’t rule. Hence a time wasting exercise. If they say we can hold one, I’m afraid that will just make me assume the U.K. & Scottish establishments have stitched it up to ensure we can’t win. I wouldn’t trust the SNP & UKSC with that even half an inch. If it happens we’ll have to campaign around them and try to get international observers involved, but as it’ll just be a glorified opinion poll, I doubt they would be.

    29. Calum Miller says:

      Legislative competence means Holyrood only has the power to obey Westminster

    30. MaggieC says:

      Sturgeon needs to resign tomorrow no matter what the outcome is. She’s wasted so much time since the brexit vote and she should have removed all 56 MPs from the “English parliament” the next day after it. 🙁

    31. Geri says:

      Maybe they’d take one look at Scotland & the absolute shitshow of the pampers brigade & say ‘lets give them a ref for the lolz – it’ll not only be over for a generation this time lads. The fannies in charge have nae chance!’ 😀

    32. PhilM says:

      This poll is interesting. Such a small percentage for Holyrood having the power when this is exactly what we would all like to be the case. I think this does the Wings readership credit in that it shows a clear-eyed view of politics. I wonder what the percentage would be for this option if you asked 100 of the most slavish Nicolytes.
      The same goes for the higher percentage for Holyrood not having the power. Jaded cynical readers might be tempted to pick this option thinking every London-centric institution would be automatically against giving any hope to the Scottish cause.
      So with nearly three-quarters for the ‘fudge’ that shows a wise Wings readership I think. A SC fudge would be the very essence of doing politics whilst seeming not to be doing politics. All very grown-up and legally highly satisfactory!

    33. Kcor says:

      There has never been a straight answer and there will never be one.

      The “sovereignty” of the Scots is not worth the paper it was written on and has never been.

      The plebs, who had no voting rights, were declared as “sovereign” by the aristocrats as a tool to protect the aristocrats themselves.

      Suits the Scottish establishment seated in London and Edinburgh perfectly well for the plebs to continue believing themselves to be “sovereign”.

    34. Rab Davis says:

      Ok, I’ll ask,,,

      “WHY HAS THE REFERENDUM BILL NOT WENT THROUGH THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT?”

    35. Sandy says:

      Who pays the judges wages…

      There’s the answer to your poll.

    36. GJM says:

      I have a feeling that we are in for a shock tomorrow. hopefully not. A ruling indicating that our nation amounts to a figment of our collective imaginations according to their lords.

      I think we are being closed down. The process probably started in earnest when Sturgeon took over. Or at least that is the way I read it. All the negative events, The Smith Commission, bullshit Acts, restrictive Bills in WM, sewell, anti-Scotland law-making, brand destruction, SNP turned into Westminster admin, Movement crushing and its bogus replacements, HCA, TRA shite, land reforn bad green subsidies for the landowners good, and so on etc, etc, etc,

    37. twathater says:

      We shouldn’t even be discussing this pish , what should be happening is we should be DEMANDING sturgeon and her morons resign

      I have to ask WTAF are the justiciary doing ALLOWING this to be presented to the english designed supreme court , as stated and documented in the TOU english law has no bearing in Scotland , Scotland has a completely separate legal system as sturgeon the betrayer is fully aware of as she is a trained Scots lawyer who cannot practice in england without passing their bar

      Are the legal profession in Scotland not ashamed that they are continuously being cowed and disrespected by their betters , are they happy that the Scottish government are openly and wantonly demeaning and denigrating them and their profession by taking Scottish legal decisions to an english court with english lawyers making decisions about Scots Law

      Have they no pride or integrity in their profession , do they feel INFERIOR to these english lawyers and english law , is the Scottish Legal system just like the Scottish Parliament a kiddy on legal system where the english let them PLAY at being lawyers and judges but if there are important decisions to be made or laws to be made england will make them

      Sturgeon WM and the supreme court are not only treating Scots as second class citizens they are treating our laws and judicial system with utter contempt and derision , are our legal profession craven cowards who will not or cannot DEMAND this matter must immediately leave the SC and be presented to the SCOTTISH COURTS as ONLY they can determine the legality of the proposal

    38. twathater says:

      Sorry to go off topic so early but I went on to netflix earlier and was horrified, they now have a section titled LGBT+ with progs and films, the world is ready for extinction

    39. James Carravagio says:

      We all know this was a cop out from Nicola because she is incapable of negotiating a referendum via a section 30. This whole charade was to appease the blind mice.

    40. David Thomson says:

      They probably read the first two pages of the 8,000-page submission and shoved the rest in the bucket.

    41. Effijy says:

      The Tories know Scotland is powerless and spineless.

      What are the chances all of those selected to look at or work on it will be the Oxbridge Mafia
      who will keep in with their old school chums.

      Maybe they get a few more letters after their name such as MBE or a Knighthood and possibly a tip off on the shares to buy in company about to be given the next major government contract.

      100’s of years and billions of pounds of corruption won’t give a damn about a wee lassie put her hand to enquire if she might ask a question.

    42. Breeks says:

      It’s a massive con.

      In a Nation where the people are sovereign and the Mickey Mouse Assembly isn’t, what does it matter if the Mickey Mouse Assembly has the pips bestowed on it by a foreign government to hold a referendum in Scotland when the Sovereign people can do whatever they choose whenever they choose?

      You’re being steered like cattle through a colonial gate, but there’s no fence to hold you in anyway.

      THE PEOPLE ARE SOVEREIGN.

      I didn’t notice King Charles III making a fool of himself with an asinine test case at a UK Supreme Court. The King of England swore fealty to the Scottish Claim of Right because he knew THE PEOPLE ARE SOVEREIGN.

      Being sovereign means not needing permission from a subordinate authority to do anything.

      This whole pointless waste of time is a CON designed to embed the outrage of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty’s illicit encroachment into the Realm of Scotland, and Holyrood is the Trojan Horse they’re using to do it. Open your fucking eyes!!!

      Instead of defending Scotland’s constitutional integrity, Sturgeon is the moronic, constitutionally illiterate midwife to Scotland’s colonial subjugation. She should be hung from a gibbet from the walls of Edinburgh Castle for such incompetence and treachery, but I’m a reasonable fella and I’ll settle for impeachment and booting her out of office.

      Supreme Court? Go fuck yourself. How dare you interfere in sovereign Scotland’s constitutional affairs. Pity we have a Lord Advocate who seems as constitutionally illiterate as Sturgeon.

      Did I say pity? It’s a fucking outrage. Stop acting like fucking cattle and stand by your sovereign birthright.Sturgeon the moron has put it in graver jeopardy than at anytime in the last 317 years and people are seriously having rallies to cheer her on? Morons.

      Maybe a herd of cattle would actually have more sense.

    43. Smitty says:

      Anyone with a brain knows that this is utter bullshit. It is Sturgeon marching everyone to the top of the hill again so she can keep on kicking the can down the road whilst she finalises her book deal and lines up her speaking tour.

      But if the world cup is boring you and you fancy standing about on a dreicht night surrounded by blue-haired women (some with cocks) venting faux outrage then get yourself down to the Scottish Parliament. There you can listen to serial loser Tony Giugliano, the man who cost SNP majority TWICE. Yes, a man who was gifted easily won seats only to see him crash spectacularly after creating his own alternative manifesto which he talks solely about mental health, pisses off activists and causes huge splits in the campaign. There is no bigger grifter, chancer, loser and total opportunist in SNP than him. He still markets himself as a policy and campaigning expert despite clearly demonstrating that he is fucking useless at both. He is the most thin-skinned entitled arsehole who keeps getting a platform despite causing more damage to Indy than anyone else. You would honestly think he is a MI5 plant! So get yourself down there where Toni will no doubt go off script and start talking about his favourite subject: himself

    44. Luigi says:

      If it’s a non-decision, what then? Surely, even the timid Scottish electorate won’t put up with another eight years, will they?

    45. Robert Louis says:

      This morning, ALL independence supporters should pay heed not to the verdict of the English pretendy ‘supreme’ court in London, England, but rather to how the SNP Scottish government respond. They have had lots of time to prepare for this.

      Today, even for diehard SNP supporters we shall see the true measure of Sturgeon. Will it be yet more procrastination and delay, and utterly shameful acquescence to English colonial rule, or will Sturgeon finally stand up for Scotland??

      As a country in a two party voluntary union, and according to Scotish (not English) constitutional law, we have the absolute right to leave the treaty of union, should we decide. It is for the people of Scotland to make that decision, not England, not the current English colonial Tory racist government in London, but Scotland.

      Will Sturgeon at last stand up to English colonial bullying? Will she make it clear to the English racist Tory thugs in Downing street, that Scotland IS having Independence, no matter what they think, as it HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. Or will she yet again wilt in the most pathetic way, as she did over England forcefully removing EU citizenship from every Scot against their wishes?

      I honestly, think she will do as she has always done, grovel and doff her cap to English rule, and dangle yet another indy promise ‘carrot’ to distract the gullible and cogntively challenged.

      We shall see.

    46. Luigi says:

      Do I detect a wiff of rotten carrots in the air, or is it just my imagination? Has someone untied the bag, yet again? We shall find out soon enough. Brace yersels folks.

    47. Robert Louis says:

      Rab Davis at 0104am,

      EXACTLY. Sturgeon knew from the Keatings case, that to ensure a decision can be made, the legislation has to have already gone through parliament. If the English pretendy ‘supreme’ court decides that a decision is premature since the bill has not been submitted through parliament yet, then we will know Sturgeon is a fraud. She has known since the keatings case in Scotland, that such an outcome could be possible, so their is NO EXCUSE.

      However, I complteley agree with Breeks above, we do not need the permission of any english court, no matter how fancy their robes in London, England, and no matter how they like to think of themselves. The ‘supreme’ court in London England, created on the back of a fag packet fifteen years ago by Tony Bliar. Utter tosh.

      This is Scotland’s decision. It’s called democracy.

    48. stuart mctavish says:

      A – Holyrood has the power to hold a referendum on independence

    49. Glenn says:

      What will the SC say?

      “Carry on Nicola, you’re doing great, just great!”

      … Or something along those lines….

    50. Andy Ellis says:

      It’s a tough one right enough: I reckon it’ll be “no decision” with an obiter opinion that if the SG had gotten off its arse and actually passed the legislations first (as it should have done) then it would have been legal.

      Part of me almost hopes they just come straight out and rule that Holyrood does not have the power though, just to see if the movement as a whole and the Scots people have any political balls at all, or if it’s all just mouth and trousers. 🙂

    51. paul says:

      I think the most popular answer in the vote would be best for the current administration.

      They are happiest in limbo ,e.g. waiting for the outcome of brexit negotiations before even thinking about any action (as no thought of action ever emerged,obviously they were content with those outcomes ).

      The third option provides the greatest opportunity to enter this carefree state.

      The Lord advocate has said, according to the BBC this morning, she will not sign off any bill without a ruling.

      So no ruling means no bill being fully passed without a further recourse to the UKSC allowing a good few months,at least, of sand in the gears.

      Given that the FM has a marked dislike for employees who do not give her the answers she desires, she could always replace the lord advocate with someone who would sign off the bill.

      As there is no indication that she will,we can assume she has the desired answer already.

    52. Geoff Anderson says:

      I think this about covers it.

      “ Former Conservative MSP Adam Tomkins – who also happens to be a constitutional lawyer and a professor at the University of Glasgow – believes the judges may sit on the fence.

      He tweeted: “Dangerous, indeed foolish, to predict UK Supreme Court rulings but it would not surprise me if tomorrow is the dampest of squibs. I suspect there may be many a disappointed journalist looking for a story that isn’t there.””

    53. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ” think the most popular answer in the vote would be best for the current administration”

      I actually think it’s the worst. All three will show that Sturgeon’s inactivity has been disastrous, but that one also shows her incompetence and cynicism.

      I reckon the poll pretty closely mirrors my estimation of the odds of the outcome. I’d maybe edge a bit further towards a straight No, but I certainly think it’s the correct ranking of the possibilities.

      My main reason for uncertainty is that I’m not sure it would have taken them several weeks to decide that, unless they’re going to give an obiter judgement as well, ie say “We’re not formally ruling because it’s a draft, but our non-binding opinion is basically No”.

      Any answer shows that Sturgeon has wasted vital years. A yes or a no means that she could have asked this question at any time from 2016 (or even from the day she took office, really), known where we stood, and then either had an indyref or a plebiscitary election as appropriate BEFORE we were dragged out of the EU. But the “maybe” answer would demonstrate beyond any doubt just how cynical she is.

      The Scottish Government already made that exact point when it opposed Martin Keatings, so there can be no POSSIBLE excuse for then making the same mistake itself unless it was deliberately trying to string everything out for as long as possible and secure itself another five years in power.

      I have zero confidence in Yes supporters taking that on board. But it’ll be the answer that makes me the angriest.

    54. David Hannah says:

      A botched court case in the wrong country from a struck off lawyer.

      Sturgeon: Destroyer of the Scottish legal system.

    55. Robert Hughes says:

      Seen this linked on Peter Bell’s site . These three short paragraphs tell you everything you need to know about the current SNP .

      Like others here , I’m of the opinion the whole thing is a disgusting , intelligence-insulting pantomime : but the fuckers who are supposed to be right behind this are too busy with – obviously far more important to them – ” debates and House business ” , while others are waiting for the imprimatur of Fraud Minister ; y’know , being fckn incapable of acting on their own initiative , they require the permission of Headcase Quarters .

      ” Only four of the party’s MPs are confirmed to be taking the roughly five-minute walk to represent Scotland and join Yes London activists.

      Several MPs have prior commitments at debates and house business but most, The National understands, are waiting for guidance to come from HQ.

      MPs Alyn Smith, Stewart McDonald and Chris Law are launching their paper on the Protection of Civilians on Wednesday afternoon at 1pm in Westminster.

    56. Robert Hughes says:

      Oh , and the 3 stooges – Smith , McDonald n Law are launching their paper aeroplane . wheeeeee , see how it flies into the sea of insignificance

    57. 100%Yes says:

      @ David Hannah

      We should be protesting for NS to resign as FM.

    58. Alf Baird says:

      Breeks @ 5:03 am

      “This whole pointless waste of time is a CON”

      Yes, postcolonial theory talks of the ‘myth’ which deceives the colonized, which they then endorse as they struggle to adapt to it, only to then be acted upon by it. And, as Albert Memmi said: “That myth is supported by a very solid organization; a government and a judicial system fed and renewed by the colonizer’s historic, economic and cultural needs”.

      In other words, the colonized can never expect much in the way of justice from a colonial justice system in which: “the values of the colonizer are sovereign and the crushing of the colonized is included among the colonizer’s values. As soon as the colonized adopts these values he similarly adopts his own condemnation.”

    59. Breeks says:

      OT but topical in the circumstances…

      https://archive.ph/tSiPd

      Yes Tommy Sheppard, Charles III isn’t democratic, the roll is heredity. It’s the most expensive monarchy in Europe, but has massive estates everywhere you look, and they’re all shrouded in secrecy.

      But you Mr Sheppard are absolutely WRONG to declare, I quote, “Not in the UK. Here the coronation vows, which we shall witness next May, require a declaration of respect for God and Church. No reference is made to parliament, the people, or any notion of a democratic framework.”

      You’ve not been paying attention Mr Sheppard, because Charles III has already sworn fealty to the Claim of Right, the sovereignty of Scotland.

      He did so IN SPITE of his hereditary Kingship, his wealth, his investments, his privileges, and his status. That’s right, the King of England swore fealty to Scotland’s Claim of Right, and in doing so showed more respect and formal regard towards Scotland’s Constitutional integrity than a gravybusload of charlatan SNP politicians.

      Scotland doesn’t need King Charles III eh? He’s done more to safeguard Scotland’s interests and constitutional sovereignty than the troughers and charlatans in Scotland’s “government”.

      Do me a favour Mr Sheppard, ask yourself why Charles took that oath.

      Scotland has just needed it’s king to throw a lifeline around it’s constitutional sovereignty which the SNP has put in mortal jeopardy with this whole Supreme Court rigmarole.

    60. 100%Yes says:

      For starters Scottish SC stated the SG had to pass the Referendum Bill first, so why would the English SC rule differently and now we come to Sturgeon Plebiscite she wants Westminster and not Holyrood election. oh yes, I do believe Sturgeon has a plan it just isn’t Independence.
      When are people going to waken up to Sturgeon can’t Riddock see she being used.

    61. David Hannah says:

      @100%yes.

      She’s the Indy Swindler. The SNP should start a leadership contest after today. She’s selling out Scotland’s Sovereignty.

    62. Stuart MacKay says:

      Breeks @5:03am

      Short of some large scale civil disobedience, which likely would have the army on the streets if it looked serious, I don’t see how this so-called sovereignty can be expressed. Electing more people to go to the very institution which is suppressing our sovereignty doesn’t look like a winning proposition. The Convention of the Estates at least had some military muscle that could be wielded, if push came to shove. I suppose a general strike would have the same effect but how is that going to pulled off? It’s not like we still have the institutions with the level of authority needed to make it a legitimate expression of the will of the people.

      If this is sounding antagonistic it’s not meant to be. The country and the UK is paralyzed by inaction on several fronts with politicians who are simply way out of their depth or have their own agendas. Short of some form of institutional failure which opens the door to change I don’t see how our present circumstances can be altered. The closest thing we had to a peoples’ champion was Martin Keatings and he was easily smothered by both sides. As for people taking to the streets over the cost of living and demanding change. The covid lockdowns wrung any possibility of dissent out of the population and remember the “emergency legislation” is still on the books waiting for any emergency.

      So what’s next?

      Right now the only path for change I can see is a glacial paced drifting apart where eventually everyone will see that we no longer have anything in common – unless the SNP’s plans to privatise the NHS upsets English voters so much that they boot us out to try and contain the neo-liberal contagion before it infects the rest of the island 🙂

    63. 100%Yes says:

      @David Hannah

      Sturgeon already knows the judgement and she’s using Riddock as a pawn and the protest are designed for Scots to endorse a FM who has killed Independence for the last 8yrs.

    64. Frank Gillougley says:

      Breeks 8.03

      Maybe a herd of cattle would have more sense.’

      Yes, and definitely more WORTH!

    65. Deepdivedave says:

      No result ! Kicked on down the road…..

    66. G-Man says:

      The problem isn’t if and when a ‘no’ is delivered by the SC, but the nonsense this will generate from the SNP about and electoral referendum thereafter. This strategy isn’t about Indy, about just ‘give us (another) mandate dressed up as something it’s not.

      Encouraging people to vote for all Indy parties just splits the vote, splitting the vote increases the potential of reducing SNP and Alba representation at WM. Reduced representation creates a Unionist narrative in the media that a loss in seats equates a falling off of support for Indy.

      So whilst the SNP will still be arguing they are the largest party (presumably) and have a mandate, IndyRef2 is lost.

      The ONLY way this strategy works is via electoral pact: ALL Indy parties agreeing amongst themselves to field a single candidate per constituency and asking their supporters to vote for that single candidate; from whatever party is standing. That way every vote counts as an Indy vote.

      But the SNP won’t do this. It means asking some if it’s people to stand aside, it means giving up control, it means making a personal sacrifice for Indy. So… if it’s a NO from the SC, expect the Great Con from within to begin.

    67. Stoker says:

      100%Yes says on 23 November 2022 at 8:46 am

      “We should be protesting for NS to resign as FM.”

      And we should be getting the details down on paper and getting it put through letter boxes, along with the fact that while hundreds of thousands of Scotland’s homes struggle Skank Sturgeon & creepy Murrell are living a life of luxury and opulence paid-for by voters.
      __________

      In other news: UKGov ‘Work & Pensions Minister’ just been on BBC blatantly lying. Boasting about how millions of payments have went into bank accounts of vulnerable households seamlessly. Lying b@st@rd! Some households haven’t received their second cost of living payment due into accounts between 8th & 23rd of November. They should be forced to reveal just how many folk haven’t received it. BBC giving London Tories their usual platform to spout utter lies unchallenged. Good old Aunty, eh!

    68. Ottomanboi says:

      Whatever….just more procrastinating «legalism», the way Sturgeonite SNP want it.
      A severe case of British political constipation.

    69. Hatuey says:

      We had it in writing, in an agreement, Sewel, that Scotland’s consent was required where it comes to explicitly devolved matters. In 2018, the Supreme Court ruled that it wasn’t worth the paper it was written on.

      It’s the other way around this time; we have an act of parliament, The Scotland Act 1998, that clearly states constitutional matters are reserved.

      It would be ridiculous, illogical, and self-harming for the Supreme Court to say anything other than “no” to the proposition in this case.

      And if they couch that “no” in anything resembling politely fudged terms, or say anything along the lines of “we aren’t able to rule on this”, for whatever reason, then they are taking a political stance which equates to a dishonest stance, because The Scotland Act 1998 couldn’t be clearer.

      And we know how Sturgeon will respond. She’ll play to the crowd initially then back down quietly over the next few months, slowly and surely bowing to Westminster as she always has…

      The only thing that will have changed in 2 years is that we will all be 2 years older, and their election manifesto will be the usual “Stronger for Scotland” crap we’ve all been choking on since Sturgeon took over.

    70. Astonished says:

      G-Man – I’m with you.

      If this happens it’s ‘game over’ for the union.

      Those that oppose this – We all will know whose side their on. And it isn’t the side of independence.

    71. 100%Yes says:

      Nicola Sturgeon FAILED again, the only question is now will the NUSNP bring forward a Holyrood election.

    72. FionaN says:

      So the judgement is that we are a colony! Come on then Nicola, tell us what you are going to do Now?

    73. Stoker says:

      And there you have it, Scotland. Sturgeon deliberately put a ‘weak-as-piss’ case to her English masters, and they have ruled. Your vote in Scotland means nothing more than voting for a glorified county council.

    74. Luigi says:

      Get back on yer box Scotland. Over to you Miss Sturgeon. We are all ears.

    75. Andy Ellis says:

      SC says no.

      Over to Nicola then…..put up, or shut up time?

    76. 100%Yes says:

      @ FionaN

      THe Supreme court stated Scotland wasn’t a colony and Westminster was sovereign.

    77. Robert Louis says:

      So Sturgeon must now call an election in Scotland, and use it to decide on indy. She won’t.

    78. mike cassidy says:

      So its a big fuck off then

      Westminster rules

      Quelle surprise!

    79. Chris Avery says:

      So, we have no way out at all.

      None.

    80. FionaN says:

      I had taken little interest in the case as it is in an english court, and I had expected a fudge. But now I am raging!!! Sturgeon MUST GO!! NOw!

    81. Grahame Case says:

      What a fudging surprise

    82. 100%Yes says:

      STURGEON SHOULD RESIGN AND A hOLYROOD ELECTIN SHOULD BE BROUGHT FORWARD.

    83. Shug says:

      Has the sturgeon failure resigned yet

    84. Dave S says:

      Not what I expected. I thought it would be kicked into the long grass. But this is good. Its always darkest before the dawn.

    85. 100%Yes says:

      At leased we all know the NUSNP can stand in an election on a vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence. the SNP has sit in there own nest.

    86. Robert Louis says:

      Chris Avery at 1004,

      No, we just can’t have indyref2 arranged by the scottish parliament. Most countries take independence without a referendum. Now we know for sure, the Tories say NO, Labour says NEVER, and the pretendy English’ supreme’ court says GTF.

      It is up to Scotland now, England and Westminster no longer have any say.

      Sturgeon CAN with immediate effect dissolve her government and call a Scottish plebiscite election early next year.

    87. Dave S says:

      Sturgeon SHOULD with immediate effect dissolve her government and call a Scottish plebiscite election early next year.

      But she wont.

    88. FionaN says:

      100%yes
      The court may have said we are not a colony (in order to head off approaches to the UN as a way out) but they have effectively said we are not in an equal union, thus breaching it yet again, hence the consequence, the conclusion is that we are a colony, not a country in an equal partnership. They have stated that England controls Scotland i.e. Scotland is a colony

    89. Breeks says:


      Stuart MacKay says:
      23 November, 2022 at 9:07 am

      …. The closest thing we had to a peoples’ champion was Martin Keatings and he was easily smothered by both sides.

      I was behind Martin Keatings as much as I could be, but I also thought he was wrong.

      I’m going to borrow David Hannah’s wee gem of a quote…”A botched court case in the wrong country from a struck off lawyer”.

      I don’t think Keatings botched his case, but it was the wrong fight, in the wrong court, attacking the wrong legislation. White argument, white courtroom, white Scotland Act. Red sovereignty completely sidelined.

      I keep referring folks to my analogy of red and white sovereignty. The red sovereignty is the sovereignty of Scotland, and the white sovereignty is the sovereignty of Westminster.

      https://www.barrheadboy.com/which-ever-flag-they-offer-a-guest-post-by-breeks/

      Anything which goes through Holyrood, an institution codified by an Act of Westminster and filtered through the Scotland Act is essentially the domestic politicking of a region, testing the limits of the “white” Westminster sovereignty imposed on it. You’re asking questions to untie a knot when Westminster is holding both ends of the string. Win or lose, they have both possible outcomes contained and under control.

      Scotland has to grasp the concept of red sovereignty, the popular Constitutional sovereignty of the people. Break the entrapment and step outside the sandbox. Red sovereignty, is synonymous with the Claim of Right; affirm the Claim of Right, and you’re affirming the sovereignty of the Scottish people. It’s not just words.

      The thing is, red and white sovereignty cannot co-exist, they are binary and absolute conditions. Scotland’s ancient Constitution affirms it is the Community of the Realm, the people, who are sovereign in Scotland, and thus there is no part of Scotland where the white sovereignty of Westminster can properly exist. The post of sovereign is already filled.

      When Westminster tries to assert white sovereignty in Scotland, and it is currently using Holyrood as a Trojan Horse to establish a Scottish “Government” which kneels down before Westminster’s Scotland Act, that is a brazen insurrection of Scotland’s Constitutional sovereignty.

      It’s not an insurrection of the “region” of Scotland mind, but the Nation of Scotland, and as such, any courtroom analysis of sovereignty is a matter of International Law and an International Court. – Certainly not a colonial “Supreme Court” which has no better constitutional credentials or legitimacy than the Trojan Horse Holyrood does.

      We must stop playing games in the sandbox where all the rules are written by the Westminster Establishment. I repeat, for so long as we address Independence as a domestic issue, we concede Westminster is our legislator and holds both ends of the string. That is a trap, an impenetrable sophistry, whereby for Scotland every debate is a no-win scenario.

      We need to step outside the sandbox, completely, (and since our democratic “government” seems a hopelessly inept lost cause), we need to go through a Scottish Convention of the Estates, and take the constitutional integrity of Scotland’s Red Sovereignty, the Claim of Right, before International Law and assert Scotland’s sovereign credentials and legitimacy under International Law, and demand these are recognised by the International Community.

      That, or something like it, is what SALVO is currently trying to build. That Liberation group we want people signing up to isn’t a petition, it’s a necessary protocol which will require the UN to hear Scotland’s voice and get the ball rolling.

      Get your mother, father, brothers, sisters, friends, co-workers, acquaintances, hellfire, get the family dog to sign up to the Liberation dot org initiative, because the more people who do, the more convincing we will be to the UN. Doing this is as close as your likely to get to Yes vote in the foreseeable future. Do it.

    90. Robert Louis says:

      Seriously Sunak, Starmer, and the rest of the red and blue English Tories need to wise up and think. I ask in all seriousness do they really want another Ireland? Deny democracy, deny freedom of choice, and what is left. Scotland does not want in this cursed ‘union’ with perfidious Albion anymore.

      The message from England today is very, very clear, ‘shut the f*ck up Scotland, and do what England dictates’.

      Not acceptable. Not acceptable at all. Not ever, not now.

    91. Dave S says:

      I don’t want sturgeon to leave gracefully and with some self-contrived sense of dignity. I wan’t her to be dragged out kicking and screaming and shown for the betrayer and corrupt bitch she is. It would not sit well with me if she can walk into the sunset.

    92. 100%Yes says:

      I stated on your site that the Supreme court would make a ruling and it has, Scotland can’t hold referendums and Scotland isn’t a colony and Westminster is sovereign period. Who to blame Sturgeon and the New SNP and something else the SNP has Sh*t in there own nest they can no longer say a vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence, why on gods earth would you ever ask a foreign country a queston on your own Independence and espect a favourable answer.

    93. Christopher Pike says:

      I hope some of you have learned a valuable lesson this morning. Do not take constitutional advice from driving instructors from Partick (Gordon Ross) or retired teachers (Salyers).

      The UK Parliament (rightly or wrongly) IS sovereign.

      Scotland is NOT a colony.

      At least Alex Salmond understood that it was unwise to take this case to the Supreme Court.

    94. K1 says:

      We’ve know that this is/was/always would be the outcome for years, now it’s just legally signed off.

      Fucking shambles, now what?

    95. Chas says:

      Is anyone surprised with the ruling?

      No doubt, outrage will be expressed by the SNP, all for the benefit of the cult following. Nicola will be quietly happy as she strings them along…………….again!

      No doubt the usual suspects will be along shortly bleating about colonialism, sovereignty and 300 year old treaties. Of course, writing on here will be as far as they are prepared to go. Nothing changes.

    96. Bob Mack says:

      We have a way out.
      Breeks has told you all. Claim of right.

      The King swore the oath to Claim of Right on broadcast TV when he took up his Mothers duties.
      Ask yourself why he had to do so ?

      The answer lies within. He has a duty to the people of Scotland , not the other way around. Our former contributor Robert Peffers always knew this was the key,and he was right.

      That is what this court case should have been about all along.

    97. Breeks says:

      Rest in Peace Holyrood. You brought it upon yourselves.

      Over to you SALVO and a Convention of the Estates.

      Sturgeon has effectively impeached herself and made Holyrood obsolete.

    98. Dave S says:

      Colony *noun*
      1.
      a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.

      You don’t need a weatherman to tell you when its raining, do you?

    99. Graf Midgehunter says:

      One positive thing: Thank fk we don’t have to go through this fake referendum which would have been manipulated by WM/Sturgeon to ensure a NO and destroy Indy for longer than a generation.

      It should be an election GE or/and HR with a majority of seats as a mandate to act for the Scottish people.

      Then terminate the ToU.

      Not forgetting to dispose of nasty Nic beforehand.. 🙂

    100. Robert Louis says:

      No matter if you spport snp, alba or whatever, make sure you get to the demos tonight. Nae excuses. The demos are not FOR the SNP, they are for INDEPENDENCE. Do not let anybody tell you otherwise.

      Let us show our strength, show our numbers. Move heaven and earth to get to one of the demos. This is the moment. Whining on twitter will not suffice, get to the demos.

      http://www.timeforscotland.scot

    101. Geoff Anderson says:

      “If we say you are not a colony then the matter is closed” mmm quite an interesting line to take by the gloating Unionists. I think they have forgotten the lessons of history when that line in the sand was uttered.

      When we have dealt with the enemy within the fight begins.

      We have a new ruling on Divorce Law. The abused partner can never leave unless the abuser grants them permission!

    102. Rab Davis says:

      The detested English bastards have spoken.

    103. Robert Louis says:

      Bob Mack at 1020am,

      Totally agree. The upside of this judgement, is that it has removed Westminster from the equation. They all say no, so we need to act in Scotland’s interests without their input. Not sure anybody in England has grasped that yet.

    104. Andy Ellis says:

      Christopher Pike is right.

      We’re not a colony. We do have a way out, we just need a government with the political balls to take the necessary steps.

      The only feasible way forward in the short to medium term is plebiscitary elections at Holyrood . If we can’t summon a majority of Scots to use their righteous anger to overwhelmingly endorse independence via immediately called plebiscitary elections at Holyrood, and to pressurise milquetoast nationalists like Sturgeon to ensure they happen, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

      Real nationalists don’t ask permission they take what is rightfully theirs. No cunning plans, conventions or legal silver bullets are required. The response to todays simple answer to the simple question is obvious: plebiscitary elections as soon as reasonably practicable.

    105. Luigi says:

      I would like to thank the SC for coming to a quick decision. No nonsense, no stalling. I just wish our Scottish government was so decisive. No more BS please. You got an answer, probably quicker than expected, perhaps not what you expected. In any case, take a leaf from the SC – be brave and decisive. Over to you, Nicola, we are all ears. No more BS. We have had enough. Be brave and the people will back you. We are up for this – don’t let us down.

    106. 100%Yes says:

      The SNP will no longer be able to put in their manifesto or their leaflets a “vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence” because it’s a reserved matter so what is a vote for the NUSNP a vote for. This is Sturgeon saying let’s make Westminster work for Scotland. How can Sturgeon say democracy can’t be denied when she hired Bain and took it to the supreme court, I didn’t agree with it, we all remember Sturgeon saying Independence isn’t about one person I don’t recall ever being asked if I wanted British Supreme court to rule on a Scottish legal matter, Donald Dewar said the Scotland act killed the Nats for good and it did with the help of Sturgeon.

    107. Willie says:

      It is time we stepped out of this charade.

      They say no. We say yes. And so, we must take. Make no mistake we need to take. Ireland is our closest neighbour and they had to take.

      England is our enemy. Is our captor, our jailor, and we should recognise that now. Let no man stop the march of a nation was a form of words once uttered across the water in Ireland – and they went on and took.

    108. Kevin Cargill says:

      So at 1130 Nicola will appear on TV. face painted blue and white, sticking a middle finger up to Westminster and raging at them to stick their decision up their arse, we’ll be having a referendum without our colonialist masters’ permission! I fucking wish!!

    109. Independent says:

      No excuse now for Nicola keeping the troughers at Westminster. Follow the Irish example.
      REMOVE them.
      If need be pay their MPs basic salary until the next General Election. NO NEED FOR EXPENSES!!
      Bet the Crofter and Slippers would stay as Independents. Working for Scotland my A**e, working for themselves only.

    110. Graf Midgehunter says:

      N.B. to what I wrote before, I would also very gladly accept the Salvo Convention way forward.

      Long ago I joined ALBA and signed the Liberation Protocol.

      There are many ways to skin a cat and we should use them all.

      Just do it..

    111. Stuart MacKay says:

      Breeks, thanks very much. I agree on your @10:21 it’s very much game over for Holyrood – it simply cannot deliver what is being asked of it.

      It’s also a day of reckoning for the rank and file of the SNP. They’ve (we’ve) poured everything into the idea that Holyrood was the government in waiting. That can all be safely consigned to the rubbish bin. What will they do next?

      Interestingly this appears to have generated a vast political vacuum. The aspirations of 50+% of the country cannot ever be met with the political structures currently in place.

      Perhaps it’s time to do a deal with Farage so everyone gets what they want.

    112. Robert Hughes says:

      The English ( spare us the bollocks about the * UK * SC – it’s a English creation whose overriding priority is the preservation of English judicial supremacy ) legal High Command just took Scotland’s – always tenuous/notional – autonomy out into the street n shot it like a dog ; as I and the minority voted in the above poll it would .

      Not claiming any great prescience here . I just thought it was more likely * they * would take the opportunity to put the last nail in that particular coffin .

      One positive , there will now not be a Referendum next year – SHOCKER !! – so if Hopeless Hannah was planning to use the * delivery * of that as her exit music – cue discordant violins .

      The obverse negative is we’re stuck with her until after the next UKGE – at least . If there wasn’t so much at stake , it may have been possible to derive some compensatory satisfaction in watching her rapidly diminishing credibility evaporate completely .

      But there IS so much at stake . The only true satisfaction will come when she’s seen walking out of Bute House – forever .

      As failures go , hers is of world-historical proportions

    113. scunner says:

      @ Robert Louis

      “Sturgeon CAN with immediate effect dissolve her government and call a Scottish plebiscite election early next year.”

      Nah they’ll bump along until a General Election with Labour in resurgence, campaign for Independence vote, lose seats and get nowhere near 50%.

      Left in limbo with support dropping as they stumble along trying to do the same thing with less money, waiting for a Labour Westminster to inevitably screw everything before the Tories come back. Rinse/Repeat.

      5 years, 10 years, 30 years?

    114. Independent says:

      Unfortunately Scunner
      I think you are bang on with your prediction.
      What a wasted 8 yrs.
      We need someone to rescue the Yes movement and it won’t be the NU OR OLD SNP

    115. 100%Yes says:

      Sturgeon has brought this to the SC, she now stating she fully agrees with its decision, People I fail to see why anyone on here believes for a single minute Sturgeon is going to do something outside the UK law she’s never going to go against whatever the UK laws says and this has been our problems from her becoming FM.
      Please my fellow scots take head nothing will change until we get rid of a lawyer who’s only going to abide by the UK law regardless of what we want and for F*ck sake don’t put JC in her place we need someone who’ll defy not keep saying AYE.

    116. Willie says:

      Political vacuum. That’s a euphemism because it’s worse than that. A people with no say, no voice. Their Scottish Parliament useless with a majority of Scottish MPs in Westminster parliament rendered absolutely powerless unless of course these MPs now walk out and reconvene in Scotland.

      Ah Scotland, Bonnie Scotland, exposed as a country with no political democracy. Only the diktat of the ruling English.

      This is the stuff that in other countries the guns would come out.

      Anyway, we either accept it as it is and crawl away or we move to take what we want, without English diktat. Absolutely no doubt now England is our enemy, and a vile, vicious and ruthless one at that.

    117. Stuart MacKay says:

      Willie

      I threw in the comment about a deal with Farage as essentially the same problem exists south of the border with respect to Brexit and immigration – the current political parties are unable to deliver on the wishes of the electorate. That leaves the door open for someone to come in a hoover up those votes. Given the way things played out before there’s another round of chaos coming south of the border, except this time the damage might be severe enough that we’d be pushing on an open door.

    118. Ottomanboi says:

      Those that support radical change are more likely to be determined than those who opt for the status quo, a section which will contain a significant proportion of those of the «stay safe, stick with nurse» mindset.
      Interesting times;times for steely Scottish determination.



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