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The sleepy watchmen

Posted on November 04, 2018 by

We’ve been through all the papers and there’s still absolutely no Scottish politics news, so we’re going to take a moment out for one of our brief but always-popular tangential forays into the world of football. All the usual disclaimers apply.

Because the parlous state of current Scottish journalism can’t just be observed on the politics pages, with all their partisan spin, quarter-truths and hackery. Sometimes you get a better idea of it by stepping back and looking at the broader picture, and rarely is that picture more clear than when it’s a picture of “Rangers”.

The Daily Record devoted only a tiny corner of its back page on Thursday to the club’s latest financial reports, and the bulk of the text was devoted to Dave King enthusing about what great news it all was.

Pretty much every other piece of coverage to be found in the Scottish press was the same, shrugging the figures off as of no notable significance and all someone else’s fault anyway (in this case former manager Pedro Caixinha, even though one must suppose he didn’t spend any more money than the board told him he could), and we waited in vain for any in-depth analysis in the Sundays.

And we couldn’t help thinking we’d been here before.

Because the Scottish media was infamously asleep at the wheel in all the years before the original Rangers died in 2012, ignoring every warning light and clanging alarm bell and dismissing informed accounts as conspiracy theories from “internet bampots”, right up to the point where the club fell off the cliff owing creditors including the taxman (or in other words, Scotland’s schools and hospitals) tens of millions of pounds.

The old club ceased to exist because in addition to tax evasion it had simply lived far beyond its means, pledging to spend £10 for every £5 spent by rivals Celtic regardless of whether or not they actually had the money. And the new club formed out of the wreckage (in an appropriately shady deal) seems to be charging headlong down the same road, and hardly anyone has anything to say about it.

New Rangers’ bottom line since the club was founded in 2012 reads like this:

2013: £14.4m loss

2014: £8.3m loss (later updated to £9.8m)

2015: £9.9m loss

2016: £2.5m loss

2017: £6.3m loss

2018: £14.3m loss

So that’s a grand total of £57.2 million lost by a six-year-old football club with nothing but a Petrofac Training Cup victory over Peterhead two and a half years ago to show for a wage bill that’s more than those of the next three biggest clubs put together.

One can’t help but feel that third place in the Premiership could have been bought rather more cheaply than that. (The club currently sits level on points with Kilmarnock and one ahead of St Johnstone, whose combined wage bill is around one-third as high as that of “Rangers” alone. Interestingly, the team’s results at this stage are exactly the same under Steven Gerrard as the aforementioned Caixinha last season.)

But the more interesting question is: what’s going to change that in the future? Celtic can afford their wage bill because in the last two years alone they’ve trousered around £56 million – now there’s a familiar-sounding sum – in Champions League money from reaching the group stages twice.

(Which may have helped to cushion the pain of being humiliated both times, collecting just six points in total from a possible 36 and one win in 12 matches.)

The Rangers’ business model is completely predicated on emulating that feat, just as that of the old Rangers was. Nothing else offers Scottish football clubs anything like enough money to turn around an average £10m-a-year loss, but there’s no sign of the club getting anywhere near the CL, let alone to the groups, in the forseeable future.

For a start they’d obviously have to win the league, but already this season they’ve dropped points to Aberdeen, Motherwell, Celtic, Livingston and Kilmarnock in just 11 games, as well as being knocked out of the Betfred Cup. To compete with Celtic (who they’ve trailed by 12 points and 39 points in their two seasons in the top division so far) they’d realistically need to cough up still more money on transfers and player wages, cranking the losses even higher.

(Once again, clubs lower in the table are losing out to financial doping as the Ibrox club fields players it can’t actually afford, but this time without the truckload of trophies.)

And even if they somehow did capture the title thanks to their raft of other people’s money, they’d need even more of it to get through all the Champions League qualifying stages that the Scottish champions now have to negotiate and reach the big payoffs.

Even with the benefit of previous years’ money (having reached the group stages in four of the preceding six seasons), Celtic just about managed to stumble past sides from Northern Ireland, Norway and Kazakhstan to reach last year’s groups, and this year teams from Armenia, Norway (again) and Greece were too tall an order.

But enough sport. It seems to be assumed by the Scottish media that the business of running a mediocre football club out of Ibrox Stadium can continue to lose millions of pounds year after year indefinitely, just like the same thing was assumed about the previous occupants of the ground until it was too late.

The new club, meanwhile, has had to pile share issue on top of share issue in order to get from day to day, and chairman Dave King is strenuously resisting a court order to offer to buy up tens of millions of shares, which is odd as you’d think he’d be desperate to get his hands on as many as possible if the business was as strong as he claims it is. (Especially as the price he has to offer for them would be a bargain, 30% below what they’re nominally trading at, although they can’t be bought on the open market.)

But “Rangers” is plainly a fundamentally unviable business, the corporate equivalent of a desperate gambler chasing after unrecoverable losses by putting down bigger and bigger bets with money he doesn’t have. The stands are already packed, so there’s no scope for cramming in any more paying customers to watch those enthralling draws with Kilmarnock. And costs can only escalate exponentially in the pursuit of the fantasy of the shiny gold Champions League ring.

Yet the scrutineers of the press look on unmoved as history repeats itself. And readers, if you need us to spell out the parallels between the Scottish media’s determined turning of a blind eye to these uncomfortable facts and the way they report on Scottish politics, we really do despair.

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  1. 04 11 18 17:56

    The sleepy watchmen | speymouth

346 to “The sleepy watchmen”

  1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Bit like a metaphor for the UK?

  2. Muscleguy says:

    Will they have the cojones to mint Rangers version 3 when this co dies too? I’m surprised their creditors haven’t pulled the plug and the playing staff all sought a more secure gig.

  3. Harry mcaye says:

    Good article. Wee mistake though, Rosenborg are Norwegian not Swedish.

  4. Proud Cybernat says:

    Too big to follow, follow.

    Jacket oan.

  5. Jim Sansbury says:

    Good article, but when you trawled the papers you missed Kevin McKenna in the Guardian.
    Another good article.

  6. Bob Mack says:

    Spot on Rev. I listened with amazement as Stewart Robinson admitted that there will be a further share issue in Rangers early next year. This in addition to the current share issue which was used to swap debt for equity and thus keep the club within EUFA guidelines for obtaining a license to play in Europe.

    Amazingly they currently have over 270,000,000 shares issued for the club and another issue will, if used to convert debt to equity, take it to around 300,000,000 shares.

    This is unsustainable as they cannot indefinitely convert debt to shares which become worthless.

    What is interesting though is why nobody in the media is pointing this out to the fans of Rangers, or indeed why the fans won’t listen when people do point it out.

    A sound business would have no need to increase shareholding to pay debt. Remember the Royal Bank of Scotland tried such a trick prior to going under?

    Furthermore, why is the SFA turning a blind eye to these shenanigans? They have the responsibility to ensure every club is being well run.

  7. robert alexander harrison says:

    It’s all about nothing else in fitba these days that’s all it is money money money no wonder I’ve stopped bothering about fitba these last 3 years as it’s a problem worldwide and gambling just makes the games rigged if millions of pounds are to be made this has been going on since the late 90s

  8. Dan Dare says:

    Dirty Deeds done Dirt Cheap…..

    That’s what they should be singing in the stands.

  9. Jim the Climber says:

    You might want to change tax evasion to tax avoidance. As I understand it evasion is illegal and avoidance is legal tax planning.

  10. Dr Jim says:

    My sectarianism’s more righteous than your sectarianism

    I thought that was the reason both these “Glasgow” entitys from the cretaceous period existed

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Harry mcaye says:
    4 November, 2018 at 4:21 pm (Edit)
    Good article. Wee mistake though, Rosenborg are Norwegian not Swedish.”


  12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “You might want to change tax evasion to tax avoidance. As I understand it evasion is illegal and avoidance is legal tax planning.”

    I don’t think there’s much dispute that what the old club did constituted evasion. Otherwise they wouldn’t have gone bust because they owed HMRC millions of pounds.

  13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Amazingly they currently have over 270,000,000 shares issued for the club”

    Is that right? It says 145,000,000 here, but I don’t understand nearly enough about shares to know what it means:

  14. Dan Huil says:

    Hash Tag Sash

  15. Brian Powell says:

    One thing I learned about the newspapers in Scotland is they aspired to mediocrity and failed.

    But there’s a sub-set containing people like Daisley where I wonder where can they fit into normal life? There is nowhere for them to go and for the people who use them they are entirely expendable. They are the alsos (as in, also there) who won’t get invited anywhere the people who own the establishment meet.

  16. Wat says:

    You always seem to want to have a go at Rangers,OK if it gives you a wee break from politics.Ihave read your site for years and support everything you do for Scottish Independence however I am and always will be a fervent supporter of Glasgow Rangers.

  17. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Rangers is what you get when an ingrained, “fly-man” business ethos holds-sway.

  18. Auld Rock says:

    Just like their unionist friends in Westminster, big loss, nae money – just print some more. The crash will come again.

  19. Bob Mack says:

    @Rev Stuart,

    Sorry Rev, miss type from me. Currently there are over 215,000,000 shares in Rangers. At 20p each this converts to a value of £42,000,000 of the club.

    If Mr King sells more shares up to 300,000,000 and values those shares at 20p then the club becomes worth £60,000,000.

    You see how this goes. Mr king will claim Ibrox and all the other assets will appraciate a value of around £60,000,000 and therefore the shareholding should reflect that.

    However, if liquidation arrives ,all of Rangers assets would never cover £60,000,000 and so the shareholders would only get a fraction of their money. Players for example would realise nothing in cash terms. They are free to walk.

    So, is Ibrox, the Albino car Park and Auchenhowie worth £60,000,000? I think not. It is a false figure based on artificial assets

  20. Juteman says:

    Union Jacks WILL be flown all over Northern Britland.
    You WILL see the fleg.

  21. Marc Rich says:

    Can you please stop litterally poking the bears.

    Who gives a f… what their finances are, or their relevance to anything to do with concerning Scottish politics.

    There is no hope in turning the vast majority of hardline rangers loyals in to Indy supporters, but constantly singling out their fitba team for criticism just further entrenches them to their position.

    I love nearly everything I see on wings, but this pish just doesn’t move us forwards at aa!

  22. Cubby says:

    The Daily Record is back on to rubbishing babyboxes. What a bunch of British Nationalist scumbags.

    The story about a charity shop being handed in babyboxes is just the usual Britnat media- a small element of truth mixed with lies.

    The headline says SNP UNUSED babyboxes being handed in to charity shops. Note the word unused. It turns out they are empty and you can clearly see in the picture used to illustrate the pile of boxes ( not that big a pile considering the number that have been handed out) in the shop that kids have been crayoning in the characters in the side of the boxes. So the boxes have been used. Lying Britnat media.

    Lying Britnats to the left – lying Britnats to the right – lying Britnat HYUFD on wings.

    The charity shop owner makes the stunning revelation that the boxes are not much use for babies older than 3 months. Doh – they are not supposed to be.

    The Daily Record should rename itself the Daily Scumbag.

  23. Bob Mack says:

    @Marc Rich,

    I am not poking the Bears. My great grandfather Willie played for them in 1920. The transfer cost from Linfield was £2000. A lot of cash then.
    My son in law is Rangers daft.

    I think a warning bell is sounding for the club,and if people do not waken up ,insolvency is just around the corner.

    My allegiance was to Celtic many years ago, but all my mates were Gers fans.

    The real question is why are the SFA are doing nothing about the way the club is being run?

  24. Cubby says:

    Bob Mack 4.34pm

    Totally agree with your comment re the SFA. They pick up a good salary but do not do their job not now or in the past.

    I have been amazed at football programmes over the weekend saying something must be done about the violence surfacing again in Scottish football. None of the commentators even mentioned the repeal of the OBF law. What have we got instead – bring back alcohol at football grounds. You’ve got to be joking. The SFA what a waste of space.

  25. Andy-B says:

    So the new club could be going the way of the old club sooner than later. Is it inconceivable that Rangers 2012, shares could end up a similar value to currency in the old German Weimar republic, a wheelbarrows worth for a fiver.

  26. Sean Mack says:

    “Jim the Climber says:

    4 November, 2018 at 4:39 pm

    You might want to change tax evasion to tax avoidance. As I understand it evasion is illegal and avoidance is legal tax planning”

    The Supreme Court would beg to differ…

  27. handclapping says:

    You can’t go doing this Stu. Bang goes the excuse ‘I’m only buying it for the Sport’. If this was to get out to the general public paper sales would collapse (futher).

    If the front of the paper is rubbish and the back of the paper is rubbish and you cant use it for wrapping chips, what, apart from budgie cages, use is a Scottish paper?

    I can see why the papers supported Leave as its only the EU that prevents them being used for chip wrappings as they used to when we had an Empire

  28. Essexexile says:

    Just out of interest, Celtic would be 24th on a list of UK clubs total annual wage bill, just below Norwich City.
    The list doesn’t go low enough to find a comparable slot for “Rangers”.
    Once indy is achieved will “Rangers” apply to join the English league system? A place in the National League North is surely achievable.
    Glamour fixtures against Blyth Spartans and Leamington Spa beckon.

  29. velofello says:

    An odd choice of subject in the absence of political newsworthy topics.If it had to be about football I’d have thought Neil Lennon’s behaviour, goading Hearts supporters over a disallowed Hearts goal – arguably an incitement to disorder – was worthy of analysis, particularly as the the media have decided to enable Lennon to play victim, and roll out the his tired old anti-Catholic, anti-irish stuff.He had ‘escaped our alleged bigotry” with employment in England and yet he returns to Scotland, why?

    There are many people from many diverse nations living now in Scotland, I welcome the diversity of customs,music,art, food that they introduce to Scotland and they seem to be able to live in harmony and with dignity with our way of life whilst retaining their culture, but not sadly, Neil Lennon.

  30. Jock McDonnell says:

    Re today’s rumour of a Brexit deal. I suppose its pretty accurate, Shipman is known for his excellent political connections. Partly its an exercise in normalising the outcome. If there were any ‘surprises’, they’d be floated today. Seems in truth there is nothing new, just re-faced & re-presented.

    I also expect this provides an opportunity for Mike Russell. But he won’t commit to anything until the UK have layed out their cards.

  31. Bob Mack says:


    I don’t follow your argument at all. Surely Lennon is entitled to work wherever he wants ?

    Neil Lennon has had bombs posted to him when he was annoying nobody. He has had bullets posted to him. Countless death threats. Beaten up in Glasgow twice without provocation. On one occasion he actually choked and was saved by a nightclub bouncer resuscitating him. .attacked twice at stadiums during matches

    Not once when he played for Leicester City did he experience this.

    Only in Scotland and only through religious bigotry.

    Can I ever recall Willie Waddell,Jock Stein. Scott Symon or any other famous manager being attacked? No I cannot.

    Every manager I have ever known celebrated goals or missed penalties for the opposition. Lennon is no different.

    By your logic,if the Rev is attacked by British Nationalists for writing a blog which promotes indy,he has brought that on himself. Do not think that washes.

  32. Lochside says:

    ‘Rangers’ (sic) are a toxic institution both historically and presently in whatever guise. For a century they were institutionally run as a football club which was virulently anti-catholic. Then in the ’80s as the English carpetbaggers fled north as their clubs were banned from Europe, their support added pro English/British allegiance to their bigoted repertoire.

    Thus the spectacle of working class Scotsmen, for the first time in our history shamefully sporting England tops. Who can forget the joy from the ‘Bears’ as ‘Gazza’ beat their Rangers Captain and goalie simultaneously at Wembley? Therefore bracketing themselves with Gordon Brown in celebrating a victory over their North British selves!

    In recent years, the Britnat/OO narrative has increased the more desperate the club(s) have become…’Forces Day’ with ‘Bouncy Bouncy’ displays of squaddies and bears together; ‘Union Bears’ sinister in balaclavas marching unhindered by Police Scotland through the streets; and most recently the abject banner displayed at Hampden ‘Proudly Scottish, Fiercely British’…honestly are these people serious?…yes they are.

    Yet the SPL and the SFA, long associated with this club in their supinity and abject passivity to its ugly character do nothing. The BBC accepts being banned from it (maybe the SNP could learn from this) and we are told that 37% of its supporters are nationalist minded, well the other 63% appear to be also, but to England.

    The club exudes a siege mentality and hatred of Scotland not just in football terms but more importantly as a politically weaponised institution. A magnet pole for self loathing North Britons and quasi fascist elements using football as an excuse to attempt to lord it over our game with their pathetic ‘loyalty’ to a foreign country. Despite its overt allegiance to the British state, it has evaded paying its taxes to her majesty’s government first time round. It now appears that in its resurrected zombie state it is about to do the same. Therefore, the inevitable consequence of this Hunnish hubris is extinction. It can’t come soon enough.

  33. Ken500 says:

    £70Million in taxes to be paid back. The taxman cometh 2019. HMRC. Support the union but do not want to pay Maj taxes, The punters fleeced again. No wonder the terraces are empty. Sectarianism. Destroying the economy.. Racists, bigots, misogynists, paedos. The violence turns off millions. Losing revenues.

  34. Patrick Roden says:

    And Stevie Gerrard is talking about ‘getting other better players in, if the ones currently at the club, don’t improve’

    So SG thinks they have money to burn, when in fact it will be the club that will crash and burn, again, when the creditors come calling.

    They got put down into the third division the last time they did this, so what will happen this time?

    Ah well, never mind 🙂

  35. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Don’t care much about footie at all, and never read the sports stuff that fills the back pages of The National, but looking at the graph above, the stand-out discrepancy is Celtic, not “wee pretendy” Rangers. And I say that with more respect for the former than the latter.

    It may surprise some to read this, but as long as the beautiful game in our country is run on strictly deil-tak-the-hindmost capitalist lines in a UK with a south-looking media, it will continue to suffer problems.

    Even the capitalist Yanks do better in their “football” leagues, making sure that talent is far better spread to ensure that every match is well-contested and consequently garners healthy support.

    None of which has much to do with independence, except that any national league operating in the context of a separate country might get better attention. (SFA permitting. =grin=)

  36. Bob Mack says:

    Let us be very clear about some things. The management of Rangers Football club have chosen to run it as a sectarian entity up until around the time of Souness. It was a decision based on a business model, and promoted a Protestant ethic without shame. It had to change in terms of staff, but not in terms of management at the top level.

    I was once in the next hospital bed to Don Kitchenbrand ,having both broken our leg. Great guy, and even though my mother told him I was Catholic,he went out of his way to send me some souvenirs for my Rangers supporting pals, and a Celtic jersey for me. No hate you see.

    Red white and blue jerseys, sashes on jerseys, Orange jerseys to celebrate the euphamistic “Dutch” connection.

    Religion is big business and inevitably it has permeated sport where the biggest representative of an ideal collects the largest purse of cash because of that association.

    Fans have been played for years. Some willingly and some unwittingly and all fooled by tradition..

  37. Vestas says:

    Odd how all “Scots” MSM papers run SO MANY “Rangers” articles. Wetting knickers over Gerard et al.

    Oh & I’m looking at you too The National because you’re just as bad as the rest of them.

    Wouldn’t be because your reporters are pretty much all protestant & in Glasgow would it?

    Its embarrassing watching this from a distance. Rangers good, Celtic bad is the constant subtext…..

  38. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Bob Mack – I read somewhere recently (Rev’s twitter maybe ?) that Don Kitchenbrand was .. not a proddy. I almost do not believe that. But there you go.

  39. Bob Mack says:

    @Vestas ,

    You are almost right. Repoters like Keith Jackson and Jack, and waddell have a great affinity for Rangers. They all of course claim to support the likes of Thistle, but I have many friends in Firhill who have never seen a reporter among the crowd. Funny that. I know they go to Ibrox. They try to remain as neutral as they can but inevitably the supporter overides the reporter.

    They do not help Rangers fans see through the tissue of duplicity at Ibrox which will again envelop their club.

    Truth is, they are just as gullible to the Ibrox management as the fan on the terraces.

    I believe Dave King is deliberately inflating the value of the Ibrox club with a view to selling at some point. To whom?

  40. Big Jock says:

    The world was a much happier place without them. I will say this though. Hearts are every bit as sectarian and offensive as them. I met a few recently. They are just as British,Loyal and dangerous. Fans in the main are closet bigots.

  41. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Bob Mack: “They all of course claim to support the likes of Thistle, but I have many friends in Firhill who have never seen a reporter among the crowd. Funny that. I know they go to Ibrox. They try to remain as neutral as they can but inevitably the supporter overides the reporter.”

    Reminds me about how we had to listen for years to that cringe-worthy fat slob Jim Traynor, pretend he supported Airdrie, and listening to Chick Young pretending he supports St Mirren.

    They really do think we’re all zipped up the back!

  42. Bob Mack says:

    @Jock McDonnell,

    You are right. My mother told me many years later he was indeed a Catholic, but because he came from S Africa, there was no direct contact for Rangers to check up on his background, and he never told them the truth.

    Other players who married catholic girls had to leave the club. Guys like Fyffe and indeed Sir Alex Ferguson who was intimidated by the management for being engaged to a catholic. There were a few.

  43. Iain says:

    The Scottish print media won’t want to touch the story until it’s unavoidable: flagging up impending doom would incur the wrath of Rangers fans and the club – which latter would mean cessation of Rangers news which boost the sales.

  44. yesindyref2 says:

    If you turned football around you’d get llabtoof which sounds about right, frankly. At least with rugby you get ybgur which is way cooler. But I guess if you got rid of the top 3 teams in that graph, nobody would miss them and you’d get less traffic jams on a match day. Add the next 2 and “fans” would have more spare change to buy poppies.

  45. The Dog Philosopher says:

    Rather than taking Stu to task for ‘poking the bears’, I’d like to know if Marc Rich actually goes to Ibrox frequently, and if he does, how does he reconcile supporting the cause of independence with waving union jacks and singing Rule Britannia and GSTQ along with the usual anti-Catholic diatribes found in the bluenose/loyalist songbook? Or does he sit quietly (like the thousands of other Gers Indy supporters we keep hearing about) admiring the seagulls, or the water sprinklers, or those nice army chaps absailing from the rooftops in the name of all things ‘tally-ho, old chap’?

    I know many posters on Wings think football to be an irrelevance to political discourse, mainly because many of them don’t really like the game itself. My view is that the twisted ‘ideology’ of Glasgow Rangers is more of an obstacle to independence than all the effort put in by all three Unionist parties put together.

    And let’s not let Celtic off the hook in all this. A Scottish team with mostly Scottish players, who play in the Scottish football league, and who very often represent Scotland in European competitions, and many of whose players have played for the Scotland international team, yet whose supporters, by and large, prefer to wave the Irish flag and sing songs relating to Irish politics, in some sort of symbolic gesture that seems to say ‘we’re not really Scottish, because we identify with the Irish Republican arms struggle against the Brits, because it has a much more romantic and rebellious ring to it than, say, peacefully delivering leaflets for the SNP.’

    And of course anywhere in Scotland where there was an influx of Irish migrants you will find a legacy of entrenchment by either side, be it Edinburgh, Dundee or Ayrshire. The Labour party’s years of electoral success was based on manipulating and harnessing this divide. And as we have witnessed recently the Tories have been playing the Orange card recently to bolster their Unionist flank.

    I’m not a person who bets, but I bet you Murdo Fraser has never been anywhere near Ibrox. That is how it kind of works, really.

  46. Q. says:

    Fear (and institutional anti-catholicism) stalks Scottish journalism. and don’t get me started on Police Scotland or the SFA.

  47. mike cassidy says:

    Oh, well.

    Does this mean Rangers will soon be playing matches against Kelty Hearts.

    I am sure that prospect will ‘delight’ one veteran winger!

  48. Patrick Roden says:

    it has long been my opinion that men who are completely fanatical about any football club, are simply filling an emptiness or a sense of failure that they feel in their own lives, with the hopes of ‘victory by proxy’ when their club wins.

    With Celtic or Rangers, the victory has to be a cup or league title or doing reasonably well in the European competition, and with the smaller clubs, it may be winning one cup every 10 years, avoiding relegation or coming third. At the end of the day it still fills an empty void that these ‘football fanatics’ feel in their lives.

    When this gets mixed with the toxicity of sectarianism and hatred that we see in Glasgow, it stops being sad, like you get with other clubs, and becomes something far more dangerous.

    It’s easy to control and use these types of ’empty’ people. All you have to do is get them to hate ‘other people’

    It makes them feel better about themselves, when you tell them that the ‘Taigs’ are all scum or secret pedophiles,

    or the ‘Huns’ have been keeping us poor cos we’re Catholics.

    I wont even bother with all the other crap they come away with, cos you’ve no doubt heard it all before.

    It doesn’t require a degree in Psychology, to see that when someone knows deep down that they are a useless fat (most of them seem to be) lump of lard, that having the ability to make these people take their eyes of themselves and turning that self-loathing into the loathing of other ‘low-lives’ will act almost like an opiate.

    Most of these types of fan in Glasgow, are quite frankly addicted to the feeling of well-being that comes with escaping who they really are, and living out a sense of achievement by what their team has done.

    There is no doubt whatsoever, that the Labour Party has known about this, nurtured the feelings for their own political ends.

    In recent times the Tories have also been stirring the pot of hatred for their own Unionist ends, and that is why we have witnessed a more pro England / UK Unionism among the Rangers support, than the pro Ulster, one we all knew from the past.

    Rangers – Useful Idiots.
    Celtic – Useful Idiots.

    OF – Two cheeks from the same arse.

  49. Bob Mack says:

    @Patrick Roden,

    I would agree with just about everything Patrick. Football teams to me now means my weekend bet on the football fixed odds coupon. Nothing more. I realised teams are there to take your money under their conditions.

    They promote an image then expel you when you live up to it in public. I.e. Donald Findlay.

  50. Meindevon says:

    Slightly off topic. Just read an article in the Daily Wail online (I know tho I have an ad blocker) about Stoke City’s RoI James McClean who has been abused for not wearing a poppy by the fans. He has come out fighting stating ‘I am a proud Fenian…’

    Interesting comments BTL, surprisingly lots saying wearing a poppy should be a personal choice. Of course there are a few saying he’s not too proud to work in Britain and take the British pound.

    Haven’t checked the Scottish edition. Wonder if it’s there?

  51. Giving Goose says:


    You raise an interesting point.
    Post Brexit will we be able to wrap a fish supper in the Daily Shitshow?

    A resurrection for Scottish shitepapers beckons perhaps?

  52. dakk says:

    Britnat flyguy David Murray ‘bears’ the responsibility for much of the anti Scottish pro English decline of Rangers.

    Let it not be forgotten that Rangers FC led by Murray successfully campaigned to stop the redevelopment of Hampden into a 60000 seater in the early 80s in the ridiculous idea that wee pokey shoebox Ibrox was all Scotland needed.

    Hampden still suffers the consequences of that self important prick today.

    That was the final straw for me to give up my season ticket.

    Don’t support anyone now though have soft spot for Aberdeen and Clachnacuddin from my dear departed father’s persuasions.

    Would now favour Celtic before Rangers as well.Celtic are slightly less anti Scottish and slightly less British nationalist imo.

  53. Effijy says:

    I can’t fathom how anyone could trade with the club knowing they
    have nothing behind them to maintain their bills.

    I’ll bet that Face Painter that lost out on payment from the original Rangers isn’t putting Happy Faces on the Directors this time.

    I’d like to see all football clubs thrive but as a former Rangers supporter I can’t wish the club well as I’m sickened by the knuckle draggers hatred which spreads like a cancer through
    Scottish society.

  54. Terence callachan says:

    Everyone makes good points.
    Interestingly Gerard says he will but better players if those he has continue to fail.
    If he does, it will mean he has failed as well because his choice of current players were obviously put together because he thought they were good enough, looks increasingly as if his judgement is poor.
    Or perhaps he underestimated the opposition ? Again a failure on his part.
    Westminster loves it all they will never allow rangers to play in the English leagues because Westminster need rangers to continue splitting the Glasgow and Scotland population , rangers is being used as a political propaganda prop by Englands Westminster as is the SFA who continually disappoint .
    Sport is very political whether people want it to be or not.
    Hitler famously used it 1936 Olympic Games
    USA use it now to deamonise political opponents such as Russia and China ,we know USA athletes use performance enhancing drugs we have seen it exposed so often but whole teams are only banned if there is political advantage and power to be gained .
    Rangers get to build up huge debts and don’t pay their taxes ,which banks are supporting them ?
    HMRC is clearly supporting them with westminsters encouragement I suggest ,why otherwise would HMRC sit back and watch a repeat ?
    Rangers is a political necessity of Westminster and Englands fight to keep control of Scotland another example of divide and conquer supported by the ignorant British nationalists who think it’s all about football and religion both of which play second fiddle to the politics.

  55. Bob Mack says:

    Re James Mac lean,

    He has made it very clear if the poppy was worn to remember those who fought in two world wars he would do so with pride, but he grew up in Derry close to the site of Bloody Sunday, and would never wear it to respect those who carried it out.

    Bit like asking a Zulu to wear a poppy to commemorate Rourkes Drift

  56. Petra says:

    Andrew Tickell: ‘Bigots use Neil Lennon as a surrogate victim for sectarianism.’

  57. Brian Powell says:


    The baby boxes aren’t just given, you have to ask and agree to have one, and if another doesn’t want it after agreeing she cn just change her mind.

    The story doesn’t make sense, except as an anti-SG load of nonsense.

  58. Gfaetheblock says:

    Couple of points that come to mind ‘re the incidents at tynecastle midweek.

    It was a Lennon/McCoist rammy that triggered the rushed and flawed OBFA, so there is a real question that 7 years later this is all still going on. What odds getting done to address?

    Also, if the lennon accuse is racist or sectarian, how do we explain things getting thrown at Morelos? Do the good people of Paisley hate Columbians?

    Finally, worth pointing out that rangers domestic form may not be stella, the league position is improving and they are out performing all other Scottish clubs in Europe this year.

  59. Liz g says:

    OT… or is it?
    I’m hoping that everyone who hates the sectarian minipulation practiced in our Country will get full square behind a “secular” Constitution,
    AKA the separation of church and state !
    As an independent and also a secular country there will be nae need to to align with any creed or fly the flags of a neighbouring state at sporting events… yay…
    Scottish loyalty will be to the Constution of Scotland written by the Scots for the Scots….
    Then it really will just be all about the football.
    Even I might actually watch a game then… stranger things have happened!!!

  60. Bob Mack says:


    Glad your teams doing well.

    Morelos is Catholic, as was Caixhina. If you would like to have a look at The Bears Den or Follow Follow, both Rangers fan sites, you may be surprised to find the following.

    1. Get catholics out our club ( tags, mhanks)

    2. We are letting these tags take over when they should know their place ( Ireland)

    3. Somebody should not have thrown a coin at (popcorn teeth),they should have stabbed him.

    You see G you only want to see what you want to see.

    If you can find me any reference to Celtic supporters wanting to stab McCoist please tell me. ( kerrydale st)

    Next time you meet Morelos ask him how many bombs and bullets he has received so far?

    Horses for courses I suppose.

  61. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Bob Mack at 7.43

    Exactly right. I had a conversation with Alex Ferguson about it.
    There’s a lot more to Alex than meets the eye.

  62. stu mac says:

    @velofello says:
    4 November, 2018 at 6:08 pm
    An odd choice of subject in the absence of political newsworthy topics.If it had to be about football I’d have thought Neil Lennon’s behaviour,

    Unless Lennon’s behaviour included flinging bottles at the crowd his behaviour has no bearing on the issue. You don’t fling things, it is dangerous and people could get seriously injured. His behaviour, like any footballer, may be worthy of a complaint to the football authorities (ungentlemanly conduct I suppose) but it’s not acceptable that anyone should be making it an excuse for violence against him. I think you need to examine your ideas and see where a prejudice is creeping in (possibly anti-Irish/Catholic).

    BTW I’m neither Irish or Catholic.

  63. Al Dossary says:

    Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see both of the bigot brothers go down. I’ve had enough of their toxic bigotry in my 50 years to last me the rest of my lifetime.

    Unfortunately that’s not about to happen any time soon.

    It’s so ridiculous that don’t need to check the Rangers score on a match day. If the celtic fans on facebook are silent, it means the Govan bigots have won. If they are posting “chuckle, chuckle” meme, then they are getting beat.

    As to the tax evasion – I have not one ounce of sympathy. I have a lovely little letter from HMRC looking for repayment of tax dodged through an EBT back around 2009.

    I’m one of the lucky ones. It just seemed too dodgy to me, so I stopped it after about 4 months in the hope that they would not come after a little tiddler like me. It will be painful but such is life. There are contractors who are looking at losing their homes over these schemes because they used them for years.

    To put the figures into perspective- a player earning £1M per year under an EBT would have a take home pay of around £900k or more after tax – saving them around £300k per year. And let’s not forget that if they were “employees” then rangers would have had employers NI of 12.8% on that £1M, so the club themselves saved a fortune.

    No wonder HMRC went after them. Big money, big headlines and a stick to beat all the users of EBT’s about the head with.

  64. Capella says:

    Is Morelos Catholic?

  65. Capella says:

    @ Bob Mack – didn’t see your post above re Morelos. I know nothing about all this but if someone with a “Catholic” name is having stuff thrown at him at a football match then there’s a good chance it’s because…

  66. Bob Mack says:

    @Al Dossary,

    Wait till the big English premier league players get their back bills. Eye watering. All the EPL clubs used them for years.

    Rangers fans think it is only them, and for now they are right, but they provided the legal test case which HMRC won.

    They will collect soon enough.

  67. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Capella at 9.25pm

    He is. And there have been many in recent years though mainly furriners so they don’t count.
    I would say the majority of “catholic” Scots now support independence and a poll put 76% of them voting YES in 2014

  68. Bob Mack says:


    Morelos had been receiving and giving abuse to people in the stand, so when he scored, instead of running to his own support he slid on his knees ,arms apart as footballers do in a sense to shut up those with whom he had been debating in the stand. No more inciting ,or less inciting than Lennon did.

    Did he deserve to have coins thrown at him for his provocation? Certainly not. Neither did Lennon.

  69. Cubby says:

    Brian Powell @8.51pm babyboxes

    Thanks for your comment Brian. I was aware of the process when making my post.

    Pretty much the case that it seemed to me a put up job to trash the Scot gov. Why anyone hands in the used empty cardboard babybox to a charity shop for someone else to use does not make much sense to me when if you are having a baby you can get a brand new full babybox if you want one.

    I smell a rat. Britnats colluding????

  70. Gfaetheblock says:

    So are folk claiming that a Protestant st mirren fan threw something at Morelos because they knew he was catholic, making this a sectarian attack?

    Or that every football club as idiot, scumbag fans who throw things at refs, players and managers?

    Bob Mack, I am well aware that there is a unpleasant element the rangers support, I have no idea what you are on about when asking about Celtic fans threatening mcccoist.

  71. frogesque says:

    Empty, clean baby boxes would be useful for storage or a flitting. Charity shop could also be getting boxes of goods for selling and they just happen to have the boxes on a shelf for folk to use.

    All sounds a bit setup SNP badness. Charity shops normally welcome any and all donations of goods.

  72. velofello says:

    @ stu mac, and others: I suppose logically I’m neither Protestant nor Catholic. And possibly part Irish through my mother’s side, in that my grandfather was maybe Irish, I don’t know, not concerned.

    And I haven’t been to a football match for well, I’d reckon, 40 years,I’m simply not interested.I am however concerned that social cohesion is fostered and so believe that people in the public view have an obligation to act accordingly.

  73. Bob Mack says:


    I have already explained about Morelos Ally McCoist who had the altercation with Lennon never received bullets or bombs right after it. There is no occasion he was beaten up in the street following the altercation. There is plenty evidence Lennon was physically assaulted and received these items.

    Why did McCoist not?

  74. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    ‘Rangers’ will never be allowed to fail.

    The SFA will never preside over a proper crackdown on religious bigotry in Scottish Football.

    Sectarianism is a British Nationalist divide and conquer tool.

    The BritNats know that if people in Scotland stop fighting with each other about football or religion and take the time to look around that they will realise who the real problem are.

    That real problem is the BritNat Establishment.

    The BritNat Press will as always protect their masters and obey their Royal Charters commitment to “preserving the UK”

  75. Gfaetheblock says:

    Bob Mack

    Lennon has been getting death threats from NI paramilitaries all through his international career, long before the ‘square go’ at the old firm game. This is a disgrace, but it clearly different to mccoist’s experience.

  76. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’m Dundonian.

    Around 1958/59, the first team I “supported” was Raith Rovers.
    Because whenever a footie game was featured in the Dandy or Beano, it always featured Rovers versus Rangers.
    I quickly realised that it could be more satisfactory to support Rangers, which I did, until a Saturday afternoon in 1962. (Never actually saw them playing though.)

    My Mum’s cousin was married to a Glaswegian by the name of Gibby McCairns. He worked for the post office. On one of our frequent trips down to Glasgow, he was able to take my brother and me to visit Ibrox. I remember the trophy room but the scariest part of the visit was looking down at the pitch from the press box, which seemed to hang under the roof of the south stand.

    I still have the “Rangers” club tie I was given as a souvenir. (Never wear it!)

    Onnyhoo, the afternoon in 1962 was the St Johnstone/Dundee game, which decided the 1st Division title in Dundee’s favour. I felt so proud that my home town team was a WINNER that I immediately converted.

    I still had a soft spot for Rangers, particularly Davy Wilson, coz I played left wing for the BB and school teams. The Dundee/Rangers games always seemed to have Tiny Wharton as referee. He was a character!

    Plucking from my memorybockers…

    Linney/Slater Hamilton Cox.
    Seith Ure Wishart.
    Smith Penman Cousin Gilzean Robertson (another of my left wing heroes).
    Ritchie Shearer Caldow.
    Greig McKinnon Baxter.
    Henderson McLean Forrest Brand Wilson.

    All I can do from Dundee United at the time is,
    McKay Miller Briggs.

    I was at the Anderlech and AC Milan games at Dens. Crowd – 42,500. In Dens Park.

    My Grandad was assistant groundsman at Dens for a few years in the 60s and my wee cousin was ballboy for a few years.

    Onnyhoo, Saturday jobs and so on curtailed by footie attendance as I grew into my teens. However, I do recall a schoolboys’ international – Scotland VS England – around 1964, where Peter Sissons and Howard Kendall were in the England team.

    The last two games I was at were a Dundee United/Celtic game around New Year 1971/72, then the 1995 Coca-Cola Cup Final, featuring DFC and, I think, Aberdeen. Big Country was the half-time entertainment.

    As I’ve typed before, the sectarian divisions of Glasgow and Edinburgh just don’t exist in Dundee, as far as I can see. I’ve typed before of Frews pub at the Coldside Circle. One Saturday it’s a DFC pub; the next Saturday it’s a DU pub.
    at the Hogmanay party, supporters of both teams are in attendance.
    “Friendly rivalry” could be the appropriate term.

    It’s only a gemme after all. There’s more important stuff goin’ on in people’s lives – the struggle for independence for one.

  77. Bob Mack says:


    The problem is that Scotlands social cohesion is built on a false premise in so many ways. We should be working together to forge a great country, but there are so many often unseen or unspoken divisions which keep us from that goal.

    Sectarianism, where one group of Scots tells another to go home to Ireland as the famine is over. A shared knowledge you could not get a job if you were catholic in some occupations, such as police,shipyards and many more.

    Unionists want these advantages back and we won’t let them.

    Post Rangers liquidation, Alex Salmond talked of the need to have them back.because he and the SFA and every other body feared social unrest should there be no team associated with their vast support. What would Rangers fans do if Celtic played every week whilst they were liquidated.

    This is probably why the infamous 5 way agreement which is kept under lock and key at Ibrox and SFA HQ is never discussed. They feared trouble throughout Scotland is why.

    Rangers now have the SFA over a barrel. Should they reveal the contents the SFA would become untenable because they broke and bent every rule to keep Rangers functioning.

    It is a means of poulation control.

  78. Croompenstein says:

    @patrick Roden

    They got put down into the third division the last time they did this, so what will happen this time?

    They weren’t put down Patrick they were a new club applying for admission into the league. Some wanted them to be admitted in the top league and the SFA warned of Armageddon if they didn’t get admitted to at least the second tier.

    The SFL stood up for sporting integrity and justice when they didn’t cave in to these demands

  79. Bob Mack says:


    Not when he played for Leicester City he didn’t. Why then when he played for Celtic?
    Go on,you know the truth.

  80. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lochside (6.54) –


    Powerful stuff there mister.

    Hear hear fekkin hear…

  81. Elmac says:

    What a sad state of affairs. My initial reaction was, as someone said earlier, why poke the bears? Many of them are independence supporters and decent people. Why should football be brought into this? Then I think of the preponderance of Union Jack waving neanderthals appearing on our screeens on a bi-weekly basis and tainting our country in the eyes of the world. They are indisputably a cancer we could well do without. There have been many welcome recent breakthroughs in cancer treatment and maybe one day something can be done about these people. Until then perhaps we cannot separate football from politics in Scotland after all.

  82. Gfaetheblock says:

    Bob Mack,

    I am neither northern Irish, a paramilitary nor a Protestant, and would not like to presume to answer for such folk. But I think their motivation is clear enough, but I doubt they were at tynecastle this week.

  83. Bob Mack says:

    @ gfaetheblock,

    You have much to learn. Are you truly unaware that there are “ordinary” folk all over Scotland who have very close links and indeed memberships of paramilitary organisations in Ulster?. That includes Edinburgh.

  84. Ian Brotherhood says:

    For those who’ve been following the progress of the wee Twitter poll asking folk if they will be wearing a ‘poppy’ between now and Monday Nov 12th, here’s the current breakdown after 3483 votes:

    No 76%
    Yes 19%
    DK 5%

    The ‘No’ vote, at the highest I noted, was 81%.

    If you haven’t voted, or mibbe know someone who may want to, the link is below. Shuts midnight(ish).

  85. Cubby says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker@10.12pm

    Very good summary of the problem.

    However not read anywhere amongst all the other stories/ posts/gripes about sectarianism any solutions to eradicate of even reduce this nasty virus that infects large parts of Scotland. Anyone got any ideas?

  86. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Gfaetheblock (8.51) –

    ‘Do the good people of Paisley hate Columbians?’

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    Comments like that are why some of us have been coming back here for years.


  87. Bobp says:

    Lochside 6.54pm. By god you put that in a nutshell. Spot on analysis.

  88. dakk says:

    @Gfaetheblock (8.51) –

    ‘Do the good people of Paisley hate Columbians?’

    Not sure what a Columbian is,but I’m certain there are thousands of british nationalists in Paisley who would instinctively hate Colombians and many other foreigners who don’t correspond with their view of the world.

    Including Scots.

  89. sandy says:

    Tynecastle last week. Typical of footballers, Lennon having been one. Down he goes in a heap. Goodness knows if anyone had brushed him accidentally. Hurry, ‘phone an ambulance, get him to A & E immediately. Talk about over-reaction. The press should tear the whole incident to bits. What a drama queen.

    I am a football follower, having played & supported for years, suffered not a few cuts & bruises in my time, aye, & playing with the old “T” panelled ball. Thank goodness I didn’t play under that great referee, Willie “I’ll send him off” Connell.

    The whole shebang is becoming a farce, from SFA down. Democracy comes to mind — Nooo.

  90. stu mac says:

    @velofello says:
    4 November, 2018 at 9:56 pm

    I stated in my post that if Lennon did go over the score he should be punished by the football authorities – and indeed he has been in the past as have other managers. You seem disinclined to state that it’s unacceptable for him to have violent acts made against him for this. Players and managers of lots of different clubs have gone over the score when celebrating or otherwise reacting to events. But it’s just not acceptable for violent acts to be made against them whether flung objects or being punched by a fan. Where the Lennon thing is different I think is that he seems to be the one who mostly gets accused of “asking for it”. One suspects it is his background that is the reason for that, though perhaps because this “asking for it” gets touted about some folk accept it too easily without thinking about it.

  91. Hamish100 says:

    d McEwan hill

    most catholics support independence#!!.

    No evidence of this ask your celtic Michael Kelly, John Reid, Brian Wilson, Leader of Inverclyde Council Cllr McCabe steeped in Celtic Catholicism and Unionist.

    Weird all support Irish Independence.

  92. It appears the mountain range of Himalaya proportions, in custom and habit are impossible to shake off? Economics and politics it seems provides no better an understanding of the sectarian blight in Glasgow than religion. It appears from above that sociologists are going to find plenty of reasons to continue to study why “sport” is unhinged by the City of the Blind? Very sad – I love Glasgow was born and bred their and from Melbourne I can’t help wondering how the Gers and Celts are doing during the season? Customarily I cannot shake the habit…

  93. Jason Smoothpiece says:


    I have pointed out to some very devout Catholic associates who are pro English rule over Scotland that they are Loyalist Unionists.

    They were outraged by the use of such terms they were Catholic, supported an united Ireland, Loyalists and Unionists are to be found in the Orange Lodge not among Church going Catholics.

    Suggested my associates purchased a dictionary.

  94. dakk says:

    “ordinary” folk all over Scotland who have very close links and indeed memberships of paramilitary organisations in Ulster?. That includes Edinburgh.’


    What hastened forfeiture of Ibrox season ticket was an incessant badgering by a King Billy tea towel wearing guy in the seat behind me to go on a bus trip to Belfast to visit loyalist districts.

  95. Thepnr says:

    Rangers are in a lot of debt but that debt is owed in the main to existing shareholders in the form of “soft loans”.

    In other words when they originally invested they expected to be paid back and in July of this year £12.9 million was due to be paid back.

    Obviously the club did not have the readies to pay those funds so were forced to have another share issue and that share issue was agreed at the end of August this year.

    Not just anyone though could invest in those shares it was open only to existing shareholders chosen by the board. The new issue of shares has apparently raised £12.6 million. In other words just enough to cover the “soft loans” that were due to be repaid.

    Those that were due the money, the current main shareholders have in other words converted their soft loans into additional shares instead. They had no choice, either that or bankrupt the club.

    No major bank will lend the club money, only genuine supporters who own around 10% of the shares have put their own money in, the rest it looks to me are unknown companies out to make a buck.

    They need European football and Champions League at that in order to survive, I don’t see how that can happen without some real money going in and it hasn’t.

    It looks like £12.9 million owed in “soft loans” has now been converted to shares so there is no new money available to the club. The new Rangers are still in financial trouble being unable to balance the books and I fail to see any white knight coming to the rescue anytime soon.

  96. sandy says:

    Throwing coins at professional footballers! Surely they’re not that much underpaid. Tax man informed?

  97. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    Thanks for that.

    You’ve helped me get my heid around it a wee bit…

    I clicked on both of those links you provided. Mibbe just me, but I couldn’t see a ‘date of publication’ on either of them. Mibbe that’s because you had ‘archived’ them before linking but, whatever the reason, that’s just wrong.

    We can’t – and shouldn’t – take any journalism seriously unless we know when it was written, and by whom.

    It’s not your fault!


  98. dakk says:


    I have pointed out to some very devout Catholic associates who are pro English rule over Scotland that they are Loyalist Unionists.

    Me too.

    Papist yoons have to be the most cringing sycophants of all.

    Who could support a state which legally debars their religion from heading it?

  99. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    You’re right the date disapperas off the archive version.

    Anyway the first was published on 6th November 2017.

    The second this year on 31st August.

    Seems to be that leaves out the date for some reason?

  100. Jeff says:

    Can’t we dissolve “Rangers” and Celtic and sell the land then put the money into Scottish Rugby? Get ordinary schoolkids weaned off footbore? Cut down on the sectarianism at a stroke, maybe win some stuff? Just a thought.

  101. Big Jock says:

    I have an uncle who is Scottish catholic with Irish heritage. Who goes to Parkhead but loves the union, the butchers apron and London rule!

  102. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Hamish100 at 11.42

    I really don’t know what parading the names of prominent Labour members who happen to be “catholic” is meant to mean. Is there any point to that comment.

    Let me repeat the simple point I made. Opinion polls have determined that 76% of Scotland’s catholics voted YES.The same polls suggested that only 43% of those identifying as protestants did so.

    This is hardly surprising. The minute the flutes and sashes came out for the Union Jack and the union was the point at which Scotland’s catholic community started walking away from the UK.

    Many older Catholics will of course keep voting Labour.That’s an entirely different matter.

    Perhaps you don’t understand.

  103. Pete says:

    What is it with foot ball I have never been so bored when I was taken to see a game watching a junior cart race was better at least the had risk I will never pay to watch over payed actors run around , just a rant as it looks like what colour your shirt is a status symbol to me it shouts out I have spent hard earned cash supporting the over payed clubs, i think it’s another way of getting cash from the people with the least to the people with the most, my sport is rifel shooting no big sponsors but done for sport and fun and only harming a bit of paper.

  104. James Barr Gardner says:

    Ponzi schemes generally get found out sooner than later !

  105. Father Fintan Stack says:

    Those of you suggesting Rugby to be a ‘better’ sport than football should take note of its history and formation by the old Eton elite that dominate Westminster that you hate so much.
    Let’s all speak Gaelic and play shinty.

  106. Petra says:

    ‘Channel 4 shut out the SNP from flagship Brexit TV debate.’

    ‘Channel 4 has come under fire for leaving the SNP out of a Brexit debate due to be screened live tonight – while giving a prime spot to Nigel Farage.”..

    ”It’s understood that Channel 4 – which promised more representative content when launching its 4 All The UK strategy earlier this year – “went silent” after the SNP said Sturgeon would only appear alongside a “like-for-like” politician, and that another representative could be put forward if less senior figures from other parties were involved.”….


    ‘Fife’s Balbirnie House Hotel named world’s top wedding venue.’

    ”In what is being seen as a major accolade for the Scottish hospitality and tourism industry, the Balbirnie House Hotel in Fife has been named as the world’s best wedding retreat.

    The award was announced at a glittering ceremony in Dubai on Thursday night and the hotel celebrated by releasing Saltire blue smoke from the chimney of the Grade A listed building.

    It is the first time a UK hotel has won a “world’s best” award at the Haute Grandeur global hotel awards, which took place at the Palazzo Versace.”….


    ‘Wee Ginger Dug has his wedding day in the States.’


  107. Petra says:

    ‘Robert the Bruce: The man, the myths, the mystery.’


    ‘Letters: Robert the Bruce was not born in Essex – here’s why by Doug Archibald, Moniaive, Founding member and past vice-chairman of the Robert the Bruce Commemoration .”


    ‘Scotland’s heroines forgotten no more.’

  108. Ken500 says:

    There are more people identify as Protestants than Catholics in Scotland.

    Scotland is secular. The Churches are losing members faster than a sieve loses water. No wonder.

    The Churches have rights and privileges above the Law. The equal opportunities Law and Employmrnt Laws.

    Sectarianism exists mainly in the Central belt. In the NE which is mainly identifying as Protestant. There are only 2 Catholic schools. It does not exist hardly at all. Orange Marches are completely banned by the authorities and the Police. The situation in Glasgow where Marches go on frequently is a revelation in other parts of Scotland. Unbelievable that bigots, racists and misogynists are allowed to march the streets with impunity upsetting others and ruining the local economy.

    Aberdeen has only one football club. Most of those who identify as football fans support. Dundee although it has a small population has two. One of them supported by the unionist P&J owner in Dundee. Peddling unionist nonsense. Supporting a totally corrupt unionist council ruining the City. £1.2Billion in debt. Kept in power by a two job Tory and a LibDem who immediately elected became an Independent to support the corruption regime.

    Some football fans and Clubs behaviour is despicable. Illegal. Absolutely appalling. No wonder the terraces are empty.

  109. Ken500 says:

    In Scotland

    32% identify as Protestant

    16% identify as Catholic

    Scotland is secular.

  110. Petra says:

    ‘UK Labour refuses to back Richard Leonard’s position on indyref2.’

    ..”Last night an SNP spokesman said that Leonard again found himself “ignored by his bosses in Westminster”. He added: “The reality is that it would be utterly undemocratic for any Westminster government to deny the Scottish Government its clear mandate, and to deny the Scottish Parliament from exercising its right.”..


    ‘Secret report reprimands MoD for nuclear sub safety breaches.’


    ‘New Brexit deal would avoid the need for an Irish border backstop.’

  111. Ken500 says:

    If 75% of 16% voted YES and 45% of 32% voted YES. There would still be more of the 32% voting YES. 32% is twice as high as 16%.

  112. Breeks says:

    I know nothing about Football, and precious little about life blighted by it’s related bigotry and sectarianism, but from a disinterested observer, it seems to me that Rangers FC were destroyed by the Taxman, and liquidated for it. They had strength however, and unlike a lot of collapsing ventures, they earned a chance to reinvent themselves, purge whatever ailed them, start out with a clean slate to rise like a Phoenix.

    Strikes me however, they failed to clear the hurdle of purging their ailments, their beliefs as widely represented seem if anything to be even more odious and shrill than they were, and the same lack of business acumen which undid the club first time around is about to undo them again.

    As a disinterested observer, I honestly couldn’t care less one way or the other. The Propagandists at the BBC and STV will be much more upset than I ever will, and that fact alone should get you thinking… But setting the sinister implications to one side, even on a very simple basis, the expression “if it isn’t broke don’t fix it” does not apply to situations like Rangers FC where a thing IS broke and DOES need fixing.

    I’m sure it’s a heartbreak for many decent fans who actually turn up just to watch football, but a word of tough love to you… It seems to me that Rangers FC and Scotland the Nation seem to be on different and incompatible trajectories, and my crystal ball predicts some difficult choices for you ahead. In due course, you might need to take a lie down in a quiet room and decide precisely what it is you are supporting. Frankly however, I think it will be your club, not your Nation, which forces the issue…

  113. Essexexile says:

    Good morning Ken500,
    Indeed, Scotland is more secular than England according to the stats (36% compared to 25% affiliated to no religion).
    In simple numbers (and purely for interest), there are as many Muslims in England as there are Christians in Scotland.
    Have a good week all.

  114. Capella says:

    @ Nana – There is a graph on that NealB twitter thread which everyone should see. It’s from the Economist and shows how Cambridge Analytica swung opinion to LEAVE just in time for the EU vote. Compelling evidence of how successfully they manipulated the vote.

  115. Ken500 says:

    Number of Muslims in the UK. 4.5%

    Number of Muslims in Scotland 1.5%

    A very small minority,

    Muslims do not smoke or drink. So are healthier, happier and less criminal.

    In the world pop 7Billion. 2Billion Muslims.

    Less proportionately are in the UK. Plenty of so called Christians?

    UK is secular. The Churches have privileges about the Law, inshrined in Law,

  116. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana.


    A comment from the National’s letter page by Marta Vallbona Pujol, Barcelona/Glasgow.

    ”On a sunny and promising Sunday morning in October, driving on the straight road towards the Catalan prison of Lledoners, the beauty of the natural surroundings is a wake-up call to embrace hope over fear. Over there, right behind the modern prison, lies a very meaningful and powerful hill, where thousands and thousands of loyal and committed people stand guard for the Catalan Republic as well as the universal rights of democracy.

    They gather every Sunday morning to sing encouraging and patriotic songs for the Catalan political prisoners. Their music and songs relentlessly calling from the loudspeakers to the Catalan political prisoners’ souls; keep strong and hopeful, because you are not alone; more than two million people are thinking about you, staying by your side despite the odds being against your much yearned release.

    Such a surreal, strongly unfair scenario is taking place within the so-called democratic European Union in the 21st century, where the thorny, highly exceptional political situation of the historical nation of Catalonia is still neglected and ignored by the most powerful EU states. It’s an uncomfortable truth one must acknowledge, creating a highly important precedent for the next nations destined to become an independent state in a hopefully not-so-far future: Scotland and the Basque Country.

    However, the worst is probably yet to come next year, when the politicised Spanish judiciary’s sentences will be kept silent to try to disunite the Catalan pro-independence movement, being caught up in the complex process of staying united to implement the Catalan Republic amid the municipal elections.

    Unfortunately, the Catalan Parliament has recently lost its majority of pro-independence deputies because of the lack of agreement about how to delegate the votes of the politicians in exile, including former president Carles Puigdemont.
    Somehow, the Catalans have come to have the unpredictability of an at-times chaotic, non-pragmatic and highly partisan nature, even when a much needed unity on strategy is required. The Counsel of the Republic begins to see the light this month from Waterloo … only time and events can make real the song lyrics sung weekly, deep inside from the heart on top of the empowering hill; keep strong and united and the prison walls rifts will show the light of freedom and truth.


    I came across this little snippet, by Gordon Keane, in the National’s website comments:

    ”I listened to Labour’s Emily Thornberry on the wireless yesterday afternoon (Nov 1st), on Radio 4, World at One.”…

    ”The one thing that Thornberry said that stood out the most, however, and is absolutely scandalous wasn’t to do with disputes on fiscal policies, but the UK Government’s involvement with the Saudis in Yemen.

    UK servicemen are in the very room with Saudi Arabia’s military as they plan their targets in Yemen.”….

  117. Ken500 says:

    Muslims in England 5%

    Scotland 1.5%

    Wales 1%

    NI 0.25%

    Overall UK 4.5%

  118. Breeks says:

    Nana says:
    5 November, 2018 at 7:13 am

    So how did vote leave cheat? What was this extra money spent on and can it be justified? Ah I didn’t fall for any of that, I hear you say.. Let’s see.

    The gist is people were targeted for their susceptibility to a particular notion, and targeted with prejudical and dishonest information to exploit and reinforce the individual’s susceptibility. What was vitally important however was the misleading information could not be discredited or even contested, because nobody who could or would contest the information was on the “distribution list” and thus never saw it, so of course they couldn’t even react.

    This is apparently a great scandal on the Internet, but just another day at the office for the BBC in Scotland! They tell us only what they want us to hear, and proactively silence our capacity to rebut their lies, biased narrative and wilful disinformation.

    The data handling issue is now at the centre of the dispute in Leave Campaign funding, but ask yourself what financial dispensations were applicable, or even investigated, when the unaccountable resources of £3.8 billion BBC set out to undermine the YES vote in 2014?

    The root and branch of our Democracy is thoroughly undermined Scotland. We are in desperate trouble if we bind our fate to a referendum conducted in an environment where truth and factuality are routinely distorted to undermine Scotland’s strength and Independent self awareness, and instead promote the very British narrative of the UK Establishment doctrine.

    With the best will in the world, and I sincerely mean that, just how far can the SNP’s Rebuttal Service properly redress the balance?

    Do you see it yet? There is a critical path here. BEFORE we once again trust our fate to any democratic plebiscite, we must somehow facilitate a countermeasure to the UK’s skewed agenda and monopoly on broadcasting, and whichever way you cut it, that requires our sovereignty to broadcast whatever we like being superior to Westminster’s faux sovereignty to prevent it.

    IndyRef first and then Sovereignty is the strategy that opens the door to skullduggery, manipulation, defeat and frustration. Putting our Sovereignty first, then a ratification plebiscite is surely the wiser path we aught to pursue.

    This is not about forcing Nicola’s hand to announce IndyRef2 before she is ready, but a much more basic chicken and egg dilemma.

    Only my making Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty safe and properly recognised internationally, can we constrain the power of the BBC and prevent it distorting the whole Constitutional narrative.

    Only by making Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty safe and properly recognised internationally, can we secure Interlocutor Status and insist that the EU negotiates a Brexit strategy which respects Scotland’s interests.

    The argument is not about WHEN we decide to launch IndyRef2, the argument is whether IndyRef2 should be relegated to Plan B, behind an all out “snatch raid” to spring and make safe our Constitutional Sovereignty.

  119. Nana says:

    Morning Capella, it is indeed compelling evidence. I’m seeing more and more people asking for an enquiry but I’m sure those in the UK government who took part in this fraud won’t allow a light to be shone on their own involvement.

  120. Les Wilson says:

    Well EBCs reporting this morning that the armed forces are short of people to maintain a force across the board.

    So to fix that, they are to allow Commonwealth born people to come and sign up, even if they have never lived here.

    Therefore for the purpose of waging war or indeed to suppress the population, should that be required, is a perfect reason for giving such people free axcess to the UK and is totally acceptable? Er not!

    What about the immigration needs of the UK, what about the needs for Scottish immigrants ?.
    The Tories are the most insidious Government we have ever had. We really really need out of this “Union”.

  121. Bobp says:

    Nearly that time now when the poppy police will be out in force trying to divide Scotland as usual( not hard) with their uk/empire/war/great britishness sense of entitlement.

  122. Hamish100 says:

    Dave Mce Hill

    Understand perfectly. I challenged your assertion that most Catholics vote snp but without providing evidence. I merely gave evidence to disprove that point. Either way i hope folk from all faiths and none vote for indy.

  123. Could never understand some of the Yes side wanting/begging Channel 4 to locate to Scotland,

    is Channel 4 not controlled by Westminster/
    Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport as a Statutory Corporation,

    why would we want to have another UK Government propaganda machine infesting our country.

  124. Tom Kane says:

    For me, the shadiest thing of all this is the HMRC focus on teaching Rangers a lesson.

    I am pretty sure I read that this ebt con trick was explained to Rangers by English Premiership clubs who were using it even as they were taking in loadsamoney from hilarious TV deals. Still that wasn’t enough. Then to help clubs and players avoid paying tax… For schools, hospitals, libraries, etc… The financial services people came up with ebts too.

    But, really, why the focus on Rangers? All Scottish football is small financial potatoes compared with English financial potatoes. The idea of putting a Premiership club out of business was unthinkable, not so a Scottish club. But the premiership clubs have been well warned now. So, they are just using less obvious tax reduction instruments.

    Nope. The big question for me is “why Rangers?”

  125. Breeks says:

    SNP excluded from Channel 4 Brexit Debate. Shrugs. Their prerogative.

    So why should it be broadcast in Scotland? Shrugs. Our prer…. oh…

  126. Eddie says:

    The use of the EBT scheme was the crux of Rangers’ problems. This tax evasion allowed them to effectively spend £10 for every £5 Celtic spent. It was financial doping and many more teams than Celtic have been cheated by it.

    There is a precedent of clubs having titles stripped and said titles being awarded to the second placed clubs, similarly cup wins where also stripped and the victory given to the runners-up. The chance of the SFA doing this? I won’t hold my breath. You only have to look at the rulings of the SFA infringement panel to see that normal rules do not apply to The Rangers.

    I support Celtic and for over 15 years I attended every game, home and away (work then family got in the way of this). At almost every away game, we would be serenaded by opposing fans who wanted to be up to their knees in our blood and this simply reinforced the sense of anti-Catholic and anti-Irish feeling that still continues today.

    As for my fellow Celtic supporters, some will bang on endlessly about freeing Northern Ireland from the yoke of English oppression, yet still vote against independence for their own country!!!!!

    I don’t understand it at all and in questioning it, I have had a whole host of reasons flung at me. Most of it being read parrot fashion from the Labour handbook or that other bastion of truth, the Daily Record. I despair, I truly do.

  127. Iain mhor says:

    Musings over cereal:

    So, yes there is one Referendum on the table.
    What I’m less certain of is the reason for not holding any other referendum.
    There have been no referendums on powers for Holyrood. That is very odd to me. Is it too difficult to frame the question or something? If Holyrood wishes to retain its powers then put it to the people. If Holyrood wishes to gain more powers, put it to the people, which part is the difficult part? Is it that Westminster will continually dunt the demands, if so, I can’t see that as anything more than highlighting the constitutional and democratic failing of the Union. Any referendum can be a constitutional battle as much as an Independence referendum.
    Did Holyrood not come into existence via the will of a sovereign people or is it just a dainty, an executive ‘gift’ of regionally devolved powers from our parliament of Westminster? Such referendums were what I was looking for these last few years before the Brexit debacle, but no, somewhow not considered.

    Perhaps it’s a case of Holyrood could never hope to take the powers mandated to it; each subsequent defeat strengthens Westminsters hand in finally rejecting an Independence referendum. That seems the likeliest explanation. Certainly, we have been dingied on Brexit, Holyrood has been dingied on its devolved powers – not a referendum but the actual power of the Scottish Parliament as mandated by the people of Scotland. Well, ok, the jury is literally still out on that one, but it’s not a battle which can be lost and still claim to be a Parliamant of Scots. It either is the seat invested with Scots sovereign will, or it isn’t. It either is the official seat of a partner in the Union or it isn’t. If it is, then representatives from Holyrood should be at Westminster.
    Is it to be argued Scottish MP’s are an arm of Holyrood? By what parliamentary protocol do we feel this is the case?. If that is not the case, then do we have two parliaments and if so, which is the legitimate one and why do we have two? – Answers on a postcard.

    It’s certainly been mooted that Westminster is the de-facto Parliament of England. An easier situation would long ago to have retained actual English and Scots Parliaments and for Westminster to have been the administrative arm governing the United Kingdoms. Devolution to Wales & NI would be the purview of the English Parliament alone. Of course that is not what we have, what we have is ostensibly a United Kingdom Parliament of a United Kingdom whereby both England and Scotland were extinguished. Some executive power is devolved to the regions, but curiously England is not a region of devolved power.

    It really doesn”t matter how a Unionist argument slices it, Westminster is the de-facto seat of government of England. How that is seperated from the government of the United Kingdom is their unholy mess. There cannot be un uneven number of representatives from England & Scotland at the table of an administrative government of two United Kingdoms.
    Where that even leaves Scottish MP’s, well that is just pandering to the damn mess in my opinion. Replace them with MSP’s and be done. Force a declaration of what Westminster is. Westminster is acting the de-facto government of England, then Holyrood must be seen to be acting the de-facto government of Scotland. For Unionists I’d argue the only legitimate way to possibly retain the Union is create an English Parlianent, They won’t of course.

    Any overruling of Holyrood allowed to occur, weakens any case for a positive Independence referendum to stand in my opinion. A case of “we weren’t really bothered about the other stuff – but we really, really mean this one…”
    Perhaps it really is the case; We could probably make a self determination referendum stand but we couldn’t make anything else stick, we’re outgunned and outmanned, so best to just gamble all on a single throw. Rely on recognised international protocol on the self-determination of nations.

    That’s enough of my rambling.

  128. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Hamish100 at 9.22
    Which evidence was that you gave?
    Ireland is independent. Brian Wilson is not a catholic. All you quote are previously high ranking Labour figures. Where did I suggest any of them supported independence?
    I could sit here all day quoting high ranking catholic figures who support independence. How about three consecutive Labour catholic Lord provosts of Glasgow who support independence. Which proves absolutely nothing and I wouldn’t suggest it did.
    Waste of space.

    Hers is some supporting comment. And as member of the Scots catholic community I think I know rather more about what I’m talking about than you do

    SCOTS of an Irish-Catholic background are the most likely religious grouping to vote for independence in this year’s referendum, according to an eminent academic.

    Professor Tom Devine, Scotland’s leading historian, said there had been a silent revolution within the Irish Catholic population since the 1970s, when people of that background were among the most hostile to devolution.

  129. Jbp101 says:

    Why the constant slagging of rangers and their fans? Some of them support independence why not point out that British state which many of them claim to love is the same British state that destroyed their club when HMRC made an example of them, there were plenty of premiership clubs heavily involved in tax avoidance.

  130. David says:

    A football club losing money is not news. I wouldn’t expect to read about it in a Indy website.

  131. Bob Mack says:


    This football club losing money will have a “butterfly effect “on many things. Where or what do you think the extremist elements of their support will do should their totem club cease to exist?

  132. Sarah says:

    @David – the subject of the article is the overall standard of journalism in Scotland. They fail in political reporting and they fail to analyse, question and report the truth about Rangers. They are examples of the same problem, surely?

  133. Frank Gillougley says:

    I swithered over saying anything regarding this whole discussion, but in the end, decided to hell with it, here’s my tuppence. Hopefully its a positive contribution.

    Scotland and its politics has to seriously move on.

    We have to BIN the useless and exhausted tropes of Protestant and Catholic that get trotted out time and again. Forget it. Those days are gone. Divide and rule – it’s the easiest game in town. It’s the future that counts. Life has moved on significantly since 50 years ago, except of course for viewers in Scotland where ‘Religion’ gets dragged out and paraded by the vested interests as the bogeyman. We need to seriously change the agenda.

    IMHO Sectarianism has got feck all to do with ‘Religion’. Sectarianism is tribal, pure and simple. Christians I know don’t give a shit about denominations. They are Christians not Churchians. FFS Christ was the most irreligious figure I know. Of course, just as in any ‘broad’ church movements, whether they be political or spiritual, there is a wide spectrum of stances, well, so be it. We all have to suffer the foibles of one another and i do mean, suffer. The sociology of Christian organisations are no different to any other collective grouping in that respect. As an antidote to all of this one only has to look at the attraction and palpable success of AUOB.

    I really think there is a whole outmoded view of ‘religion’ (whatever that is) aired here at times. ‘Religious’ organisations (a whole plethora of churches are far far more ecumenical (apart from the wee frees of course) in their place in society now than they ever were, but never is this reflected in these discussions. Its always the binary past of kethlik/proddy that is brought up – as if, who cares? Scotland has to move on.

    I feel sorry for Neil Lennon. I really do (or Job, as I know him) He is being played good and proper as a microcosm of all that plays into the hands of the ‘too wee, too poor too stupid’ narrative. Its all bollocks. Of course he doesn’t ‘deserve’ it, or bring it on himself, but boy, is there plenty of capital made out of him.

    Regarding Rangers? I dont give a shit. They are subject to the law as everyone else is irrespective of whether they represent the tribal affiliations and voice of a section of Scottish society. If they want to remain rooted in the 17th Century as a re-enactment group, then good luck to them. I don’t think that’ll be sustainable in the long run.

    We are and should be and have to be in the business of offering a better alternative and way of looking at and how we wish to model our Nation. The Yes movement is Scotland’s future.

    I really don’t care if there’s pelters for any of this. No doubt there are contradictions that I might be criticised for, I don’t care. I’m 60 years of age and just sick to death of all this ‘religious’ crap. I’ve had it all my life. We have to move on.

  134. Capella says:

    @ Ian Mohr – there has been a referendum on Holyrood powers. The 1997 referendum asked two questions.
    1 Should there be a Scottish Parliament
    2 Should it ave tax raising powers.
    (not exact wording)

    The answer to both was a clear YES/YES.

    Twenty one years later the Scottish Parliament has very limited tax raising powers.

    Another “confirmatory” referendum on delivery of both 1997 and 2014 would be a democratic imperative IMO.

  135. Breeks says:

    Iain mhor says:
    5 November, 2018 at 9:59 am
    Musings over cereal:

    So, yes there is one Referendum on the table.
    What I’m less certain of is the reason for not holding any other referendum.
    There have been no referendums on powers for Holyrood. That is very odd to me. Is it too difficult to frame the question or something? If Holyrood wishes to retain its powers then put it to the people. If Holyrood wishes to gain more powers, put it to the people, which part is the difficult part?

    Iain that is exactly what I proposed – on 19th September 2014. In the ashes of our dreams, we stood with the Unionists having promised Scotland more powers, but never having defined what those powers would actually be, and just enough dafties believed it. Just imagine if Holyrood had seized the day and announced a snap Plebiscite whereby the sovereign people of Scotland, not fickle Unionist opportunists, would fill in the blanks of the notorious Vow and defy the Unionists to deliver upon their promises or oppose the will of the people.

    We could have taken the initiative from right under their lying noses but there were no takers. While we licked out wounds, they consolidated their panicked promises into weasel words they couldn’t be bound to. We “could” have won a public demand that one of the “more powers” promised might have been broadcasting… Need I say more?

    We lost twice in 2014. We lost on the 18th September, and we lost again on the 19th.

  136. Bob Mack says:

    @Frank Gilloughley,

    No your quite right Frank. I don’t think anybody will disagree with you. During my working life I helped people of all faiths and none. They or I never mentioned religion unless relevant to their issues.

    I helped a human being ,not a member of any tribal faction or group. They were always appreciative. That is the Scotland I wish for.

    The sad thing is there are unscrupulous people out there who herd sections of the population down routes for their own ends,whether that be financial or political.

    Those are the ones who need exposing to the light. Ultimately people are susceptible to group thinking and concensus. The will of the majority becomes their will. Breaking that cycle is never easy,but can be done.

  137. starlaw says:

    Just watched a hilarious film on Facebook. A Preacher of hellfire and damnation complete with microphone was letting rip on Buchanan Street Glasgow on Saturday surrounded by a group of mostly youngsters who were letting rip at him, when into view came a band of Hare Krishna disciples complete with bells, cymbals an accordian and drums, there followed a complete melee outside Greggs the bakers, the young folk all flocked to the Hare Krishna and the roarer of hellfire and damnation was forced to give up. Proving that Joy and happiness easily beats the horrors of hell.

  138. gus1940 says:


    It’s happened again in today’s National – a journalist going on about the 1975 referendum being one on whether or not to JOIN the Common Market.

    It was NOT.

    The UK joined the Common Market in 1973 under the Heath government without a referendum – purely by legislation in parliament.

    2 years later under the Wilson government the 1975 referendum was held on whether or not to leave the Common Market.

    It is high time the many journalists and commentators who get the facts wrong about the 1975 referendum whether deliberately or through ignorance get themselves acquainted with the truth.

  139. Ottomanboi says:

    Should we care about Ch4 not including the SNP in its Brexit ‘debate’? This is UK party politics and has nothing other than Farage’s farts to offer the people of Scotland.
    Sturgeon should never have gone down the obfuscatory ‘Peoples Vote’ route. We want independence not a second UK referendum on something Scots have already made up their collective mind about.
    Ch4 is going to Leeds. How many locals will it employ? Like the BBC Salford shift there’ll plenty of jobs for cleaners.

  140. manandboy says:

    For a summary of views on the culture at Ibrox :-

    Here’s a taster. “This has to be said about Rangers, as a Scottish Football club they are a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace. This country would be a better place if Rangers did not exist.”
    Ian Archer (journalist, 1970s), for full article see: link

    and one other:
    “Walter Smith, a two-time former manager of the club and now manager of Scotland, once said to me: “There is a Protestant superiority syndrome around this club . . . you can feel it.”
    Graham Spiers quoting Walter Smith (taken from his book on Paul Le Guen’s time at Rangers, 2007)”

    There are lots more.

  141. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    manandboy at 11.53

    We have an opportunity to move on in a new Scotland and a new independent Scotland will remove the Brit loyalist union jack fortress that the bigots inhabit and time will do the rest.

  142. Nana says:

    Latest re Brexit

    Here’s my latest on Brexit, having spoken to various officials this morning:
    There’s growing pessimism about a breakthrough this week, basically because London is still “negotiating with itself”, or “test balloons are being floated above the Thames”, as one diplomat put it

    So at last, we really really really are entering the crunch phase of Brexit talks. You have heard this before but this time it is true.

  143. Old Pete says:

    The quicker the Rangers and the Orange Order are gone from Scotland the better.

  144. Capella says:

    Just realised that the threadreader link I posted upthread doesn’t include the comment with a link to a graph showing the effectiveness of Cambridge Analytica’s Facebook ad campaign.

    So here’s a direct link to the graph. Worth a look for evidence of how they swung the vote at the last minute by targeted and personlised ads:

    Wonder if the same technique was used in Indyref1.

  145. galamcennalath says:

    gus1940 says:

    The UK joined the Common Market in 1973 under the Heath government without a referendum – purely by legislation in parliament.

    This is correct.

    The more experience of referendums I have, the less I like them. Come polling day there rarely seems to be a clear choice. With at least one of the options, what it actually means is left to policians to decide what it meant later! What is the point of that, I have started to ask myself?

    Perhaps it’s a fault in the way referendums are allowed to be run. Maybe we need stricter legislation.

    However, your point about the Common Market makes me think, perhaps standard election procedures are best. A party stands on a manifesto and if it wins it is expected to deliver in what was offered.

    There is a HUGE catch, though. This can only be truly valid when you have representative democracy. Westminster, with it’s horrendous FPTP, just isn’t democracy in action.

    By example, Heath’s 1970 government received 46.4% of the votes. Better than most, but not a majority. It is questionable if major constitutional changes should be enacted by typical WM minority government.

  146. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says:

    “test balloons are being floated above the Thames”, as one diplomat put it

    It does seem odd that while the negotiations are supposed to be in a final stage, Rabb is say the Backstop should be able to be cancelled at 3 months notice, and Varadkar saying a real Backstop needs to be indefinite.

    Both must be privy to the state of the talks, surely? That implies there is still a huge rift to be overcome.

    And a Peston points out, customs union won’t give a frictionless border in the English Channel. It’s only about external tariffs. Ask Turkish truck drivers entering the EU!

    I can’t think when the UK last had such a complete shitshow. Not in my lifetime!

  147. Clootie says:

    I think it demonstrates the media we have in Scotland. A National (Scotland) newspaper should demonstrate an interest in all clubs and give football coverage reflecting a teams performance during the current season.

    I also find that those who complain about the attack on Rangers are missing the key point i.e. I do not buy Tesco products with UJs and I see little difference with the Rangers product. My country is more important than the survival of a football team. Until decent supporters reject the unionist stance of religious bigots nothing will change at Rangers OR in Scotland.

  148. Tatu3 says:

    So, maybe a silly question, could the Scottish government – purely by legislation in the Scottish parliament – declare Independence. Then in two years have a referendum asking if the people of Scotland are happy to STAY independent?
    Which I’m sure by then the majority will be absolutely.

  149. Nana says:

    Breaking: Taoiseach says Ireland willing to consider proposal for a review clause, but it could not involve a unilateral decision by the UK to end the backstop…

    The #Brexit tunnellers are tunnelling in pursuit of that elusive crock of gold – a deal.

    Brexit: Irish rule out time-limited Brexit backstop

    Business confidence ‘at lowest level since 2009’ – ICAEW

  150. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Croompenstein 10.21, re RFC starting in the bottom tier:

    “The SFL stood up for sporting integrity and justice when they didn’t cave in to these demands.”

    Yes, quite true generally but some clubs, including my own diddy team, had to be reminded of their fans’ feelings on the matter. There was a distinct impression that our board was softening its stance on where Rangers should play and so supporters contacted the club in large numbers to let it know this was quite unacceptable.

  151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 12:37:

    The more experience of referendums I have, the less I like them. Come polling day there rarely seems to be a clear choice.

    Ditto. It’s not only the politicians or associated zealots like Banks (who are often worse) or their press loudhailers, it’s ordinary voters. Whatever the nominal issue, people have a tendency to impose their own meaning regardless. It can very easily descend to becoming merely a poll on the present government, for example.

    Conversely, I suspect that referendums are also often used as a convenient governmental means of rubber-stamping pre-cast policies.

    But how best otherwise to ensure acceptance of major constitutional issues in a culture which has no tradition of direct democracy? It’s hard enough to get British crustaceans to even give up on FPTP.

  152. Brian Powell says:

    It’s sad that folk in the EU are considering anything the UK says as being honest. The UK will renege, dissemble and abandon as soon as it suits them.

    Hopefully the Scottish Government is advising Ireland and the EU on this with their long experience of UK bollox speak.

  153. Dr Jim says:

    If you’re gullible enough to fall for the ideology of religion then you’re just as gullible as the people who invented it thought and hoped you were

    Religion is the partitioning of people for the purpose of control of the people and governments worldwide use it to their advantage still as a tool for the othering of and division of attitudes towards whomever they choose

    The sectarianists in Scotland on both sides use it to tribalise themselves and both sides are guilty, when one side is attacked they claim victim status immediately based on the other sides sectarianism is worse than their own

    “Look Mammy it’s thame it’s thame” and claim more wrong doing on the part of the other while smirking over the fact they got the reaction they were going for

    In regards to Neil Lennon what will folk say if the nutjob who through the coin turns out to be Catholic and just hates Neil Lennon because he’s an arsehole

    Neil Lennon says he had no trouble in England like this, well no of course he didn’t because down there it’s more about hating people of colour, so his black mates would’ve got the hatred treatment

    In a statement on this to the press Brendan Rogers said and I’m paraphrasing here *People have different styles and approaches I just focus on my job and what I’m doing and don’t get involved* So no support there and also no objects being thrown at him

    You can’t solve the problem by fighting with the people who want to fight with you, you only succeed in the promotion of more fighting

    Whether you support Neil Lennon in his actions or you don’t is unimportant because it can’t and won’t resolve what’s going on inside peoples heads unless it’s what’s gong on inside your own head

    After lifetimes on lifetimes of the creation of othering how do you accomplish the task of informing everybody they’re all wrong and they’ve been had by sneakier people than them, and then get them to admit it

    Not easy to admit that everything you believe and trusted in was a con and you fell for it and you’re no better or worse than anybody else and you’re still paying the people that did it to you lots of your money

  154. crazycat says:

    @ gus1940 at 11.19

    Re: 1975 referendum
    I was also annoyed by that article in The National, but Kathleen Nutt is quoting a letter from various lawyers to Theresa May, and it looks as if they were the ones in error (and old enough to remember 1975, which KN may not be!).

    The letter apparently says

    There was a key difference between 1975 and 2016. The earlier referendum was held after negotiations were complete, so voters knew what they were voting for.

    (my italics)

    It is of course true that negotiations were “complete” by the time of the referendum, because accession had already occurred, but it is poorly-phrased. The journalist should have checked, but that would have required an awareness that there might be an error.

    So although she is the one explicitly stating that the 1975 referendum took “Britain” into the “EU” (both of those things are also wrong, of course), she hasn’t been helped by the learned ones and their letter.

  155. Breeks says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    5 November, 2018 at 1:20 pm
    galamcennalath @ 12:37:

    The more experience of referendums I have, the less I like them. Come polling day there rarely seems to be a clear choice.

    Ditto. It’s not only the politicians or associated zealots like Banks (who are often worse) or their press loudhailers, it’s ordinary voters. Whatever the nominal issue, people have a tendency to impose their own meaning regardless. It can very easily descend to becoming merely a poll on the present government, for example…

    Yes, but the problem isn’t the Referendum or indeed the people, but the dereliction of the political responsibility to brief the electorate on what it is they are actually deciding. For an issue as lifechanging as Brexit, both Leave and Remain Campaigns should find themselves in the dock for the wholesale abandonment of principle and for allowing the issue to be determined not on its merits, but on who could scream the loudest and appeal to bass populist instincts rather than objective reasoned arguments. There should be a third seat in the dock for the third accomplice to complete the unholy trinity, – the UK media.

    Brexit is the the result of dismal political failure, vested interest, duplicity and cowardice, working in conjunction with the disgraceful abdication of responsibility. Brexit, and equally poignant for us, the roughshod subjugation of Scotland, is the definitive example of what the abuse of power actually looks like.

    Get rid of the corrupt and inept media, expose the rotten politicos and their corrupt regimes to rigorous meaningful scrutiny and crucify (not literally) ANYBODY who dares to think they can get away with misleading the Scottish people or selling out Scotland’s interests.

    Start putting the integrity back into politics so it is no longer such an easy and attractive career path for fickle dimwits and bottom feeders.

  156. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – but important

    The fact that overstretched police forces are having to make such calculations is chilling, and a damning indictment of the stranglehold placed on them by the cumulative effect of year after year of cuts.

    I think this is bullshit, and a disgrace The National allows such a basic mistake to be printed. How do we expect the people of Scotland to know what is devolved, and what is not, and what the SG does as oppsoed to the UKG, if even those who write articles in The National don’t know?

    I think that thing about “cuts” applies to England and Wales (perhaps also NI), but NOT Scotland, but I could be wrong.

    I’ve put a provisional rebuttal in, but if anyone has accurate information would appreciate them posting it here, or anyone with a logon to do so on that article with some accurate information.


  157. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    Start putting the integrity back into politics so it is no longer such an easy and attractive career path for fickle dimwits and bottom feeders.

    In Westminster, that will be completely impossible IMO.

    I don’t think you can put back something which was never really there.

    It’s not it as if something has changed at WM, it is functioning exactly as it was designed to do. Centuries of honing to avoid the development of modern democracy and ensure that vested interests with behind the scenes dark power continues to pull strings. A veneer of respectability with a corrupt core.

    The UK just won’t change. I would like to think an iScotland (and a new united Ireland) would show our southern friends (the voters that is) in a reborn iEngland that a better system is possible.

  158. stu mac says:

    @Tom Kane says:
    5 November, 2018 at 9:31 am
    For me, the shadiest thing of all this is the HMRC focus on teaching Rangers a lesson.

    A rather emotional statement but lacking in truth.

    EBTs were at the time just about legal, however the way Rangers used them was not. They used them as a way of giving extra wages to players, which is not what was intended. And this wasn’t bad advice, they knew this which is why they misregistered umpteen players** in order to hide what they were doing. Rangers also had plenty of warning that HMRC were coming after them but instead of cutting back on spending and making a deal to pay off what they owed they just ignored it. Rangers were not some poor wee innocent club picked on by the authorities, they were deliberately cheating the country out of taxes needed to pay for hospitals, education – even the army they go on about supporting.

    **For which they should have lost trophies and titles but apparently like the way if you have a small debt the bank will punish you but if you have a massive debt the bank is afraid to do anything so wee clubs regularly were and are still punished for single similar offences by having points deducted or being thrown out of a cup, Rangers who played many misregistered players for a decade are allowed to keep the trophies they won by the SFA/SPFL. One law for the rest of Scottish football and another for Rangers. And these other clubs usually misregistered by mistake, Rangers did so deliberately thus in effect lying to the authorities, and for may players each season for 10 years.

  159. Pete says:

    Dr Jim 1.25
    Most of the stuff you post is complete rubbish but your analysis of the controlling effects of religion of whatever variety is spot on.
    I salute you.

  160. Patrick Roden says:

    @ken 500

    “Dundee although it has a small population has two. One of them supported by the unionist P&J owner in Dundee. Peddling unionist nonsense”

    I can assure you that the Thomson Family, who up until recently owned Dundee United, had no relation whatsoever to DC Thomson’s who are the newspaper company based in Dundee.

    Eddie Thomson, who was the first member of the Thomsons to buy into United, ten eventually become owner, made his money from his retail business ‘Morning Noon and Night’

    He sold his retail business for £30 million, then put his efforts into being Chairman of Dundee United.

  161. Fred says:

    Will be glad to see the back of 2018 & the Great War blood-fest commemoration, interesting poppy results, never wore one for years!

  162. Ken500 says:

    People got loans (income) which were not paid back. No interests rates and no tax. Illegal. Fleecing the punters who have to pay tax on their contribution.

    There is still a £70Million tax bill. Taxman cometh 2019.

  163. Cactus says:

    @fans of football ~

    In an independent Scotland, you will have access to and be able to watch all of your Scottish games FREE of charge, from Scotland’s independent broadcasting network – and in addition and relation to that – aye would be more than jolly to contribute to and pay for some kind of start-up fund to get our own TV network going.

    Hey, here’s a question you could ask yourself previous no voters…

    Q. Which of the following do you consider to be your HOME?

    – Scotland
    – United Kingdom

    Your internal dialogued answer should make you realise something…

    Cause the thing is, HOME is here, it’s physical, geographical, you CAN touch it…

    The UK is neither physical nor geographical… it’s an auld out of date agreement on pieces of paper, it’s well past its USE BY date, it’s always been a ‘ceremonial set-up’ in all senses of the words.

    HOME is here.


  164. Ken500 says:

    Thompson sold up in 2018. D C Thomson. P &J Unionist paper. Family against Independence?

  165. Liz g says:

    The wee ginger dug is floating the idea of a mass rally/ demo on March 30th…
    I think it’s a brilliant idea,is everyone else in?

  166. Breeks says:

    Liz g says:
    5 November, 2018 at 3:54 pm
    The wee ginger dug is floating the idea of a mass rally/ demo on March 30th…
    I think it’s a brilliant idea,is everyone else in?

    Hmmmm… not sure. If we’re still in Europe, why demonstrate at all? If we are dragged out, my raging cynicism and caustic bitterness will strip the paint off lampposts and doors as I pass, and I may not be good company.

  167. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Too late I think, by then we’re either in transition or out on our backsides, shut the door behind us. It would need to be some time before the 29th March.

  168. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Kind of like having a demonstration “The horse has bolted, who didn’t shut the stable door?”. Pointless, basically.

  169. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – I think it’s a great idea. It’s only 5 months away!
    Either we’re in or out. Either we’re celebrating our new status, or marshalling public opinion to vote YES.

    We can take the initiative in either event.

  170. yesindyref2 says:

    I had the feeling mine might not be a totally representative view 🙂

  171. Robert Peffers says:

    @David says: 5 November, 2018 at 10:26 am:

    … “A football club losing money is not news. I wouldn’t expect to read about it in a Indy website.”

    Go look at, and read, the top right corner of this page, David.

    Just under the Wings Logo thingy.

  172. Proud Cybernat says:


    Robert Peston
    Verified account


    The UK government – not Brussels, not the EU 27 leaders – has decided that unless there is a Brexit deal within a week, the default option of a no-deal Brexit becomes the probable outcome, which is why officials are working through the night.

  173. yesindyref2 says:

    @Proud Cybernat
    It’s probably a good idea if Wingers do a little stockpiling of our own medicines, at least for 3 months worth I’d say. There may be a fair few people “lost” their tabs 🙂 Aliens ate them, the dog p***** on them …

  174. Robert Peffers says:

    @Frank Gillougley says: 5 November, 2018 at 10:57 am:

    ” … Scotland and its politics has to seriously move on.
    We have to BIN the useless and exhausted tropes of Protestant and Catholic that get trotted out time and again”.

    Are you serious? Have you ever read the Treaty of Union, Frank?

    Here is a cut & paste from the treaty:-

    Articles of Union

    I. ‘That the two Kingdoms of (fn. 1) Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May
    next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name
    of Great-Britain, and that the Ensigns Armorial of the said united Kingdom, be such as her
    Majesty shall appoint; and the Crosses of St. Andrew and St. George be conjoined in such a
    manner as her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards, and Ensigns,
    both at Sea and Land.
    II. ‘That the Succession to the Monarchy of the united Kingdom of Great-Britain, and of the
    Dominions thereunto belonging, after her most sacred Majesty, and in default of Issue of
    her Majesty, be, remain, and continue to the most Excellent Princess Sophia, Electress and
    Duchess Dowager of Hanover, and the Heirs of her Body, being Protestants, upon whom
    the Crown of England is settled, by an Act of Parliament made in England, in the twelfth
    Year of the Reign of his late Majesty King William the Third, entitled, An Act for further
    Limitation of the Crown, and better securing the Rights and Liberties of the Subject. And that
    all Papists, and Persons marrying Papists, shall be excluded from, and for ever incapable to
    inherit, possess, or enjoy the imperial Crown of Great-Britain, and the Dominions thereunto
    belonging, or any Part thereof. And in every such Case, the Crown and Government shall
    from Time to Time descend to, and be enjoyed by such Person, being a Protestant, as should
    have inherited and enjoyed the same, in case such Papist, or Person marrying a Papist, was
    naturally dead, according to the Provision for the Defcent of the Crown of England, made
    by another Act of Parliament in England, in the first Year of the Reign of their late Majesties
    King William and Queen Mary, entitled, An Act declaring the Rights and Liberties of the
    Subject, and settling the Succession of the Crown.

    The Treaty of Union was really mainly all about sectarianism.

  175. galamcennalath says:

    Liz g says:

    a mass rally/ demo

    A wake. Somber affair.

    I have said before, I think all flags on public buildings etc should be at half mast. National mourning over Brexit. We didn’t ask for it, we don’t want it.

    Holyrood should have a vote, which would pass, on the flags outside the building. Also a recommendation for all other public buildings.

    That would definitely get the world’s media focusing on Scotland, again.

  176. Liz g says:

    Capella & others
    I think the idea is not to leave the EU quietly and highlight that we are being forced out.
    And Paul, like us,won’t have any real way of knowing the state of play at that point,he explained it better (sorry can’t do links) on his blog.
    Even if they pretend not to notice, when we all know they do, getting everyone out on the streets, is always, I think, a good idea.
    It might even have morphed into an actual Indy Ref rally by that time!

  177. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – I agree. In fact getting people out on the streets is the ONLY thing that will frighten the Westminster cabal and their media lackeys IMO.

    Nicola said in her conference speech how much the Edinburgh march gladdened her heart. Well that makes it almost our duty to get out there!

    Big numbers and lots of noise and, this time, make sure the venue is booked for the speeches and stalls. I’m in.

    You too yesindyref2 – March is a good time for a walk. 🙂

  178. Hamish100 says:

    Maybe we shouldnt have a demo- its in the name but A celebratory walk of defiance to reinforce our Scottishness with Floats. Etc

  179. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 15:54,

    Like other responders, I think it’s a totally stupid idea. (To put it mildly.)

    This is not going to be like 2014, there’s not going to be an almighty resurgence in reaction. It will be shruggsville among the general populace. For the likes of us it will be ragin’ pointlessly at the moon, having once again demonstrated our total impotence in the face of UK force majeure. Shamefully humiliating.

    The Tories, who are masters of power politics if nothing else, know to a wo/man and Brexiteer that they have to get the UK wholesale out the door at the end of March, any old how, then it’s “done deal”.

    I just don’t understand why we on the other side are still whistling Dixie and assuming that everything is hunky-dory. The way things stand, with fatuous notions like that, they’re bl**dy well NOT.

    Far more productive IMO to have indyref2 on the 27th March, when there’s no longer any wriggle-room for the BritNats.

  180. Frank Gillougley says:

    Hi Robert,

    Good point caller, as they say. 🙂

    Another thing about these dark days is, am I alone in thinking that if Donald Trump is Dutch Schultz, then Banks and Wigmore are the Kray twins?

    Took my meds this mornin as well.

  181. Gary45% says:

    I saw this story on the front of the National in the supermarket this morning, at first I was raging then thought maybe its better if the SNP distance themselves from the obvious impending disaster.
    It will basically be a shouting match with said morons Farage etc, and the SNP would just be blamed for everything that’s going wrong in the Brexit negotiations.
    If the parties in the studio try and blame the SNP without an SNP politician there to reply, it will make the Yoons look even more stupid. (If that’s possible ??).
    Tick Tock.

  182. Capella says:

    S@ RJS – So is that the date of Indyref2 settled then Robert? If so, we could bring forward the date of the March March to 23rd.

  183. galamcennalath says:

    Just thinking. The ECJ decision on whether Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally is expected in December.

    I bet TMay tries to rush a blind Brexit Withdrawal Agreement through WM before that decision is known. She will threaten … accept my WA or it’s No Deal. She will hope enough Labourites fall for that.

    I reckon the ECJ wall say A50 can be revoked. Why wouldn’t they?

    If that were known then TMay’s plan doesn’t hold water.

    Sigh. Is it time yet Nicola?

  184. ronnie anderson says:

    liz g Shoosh lol.

  185. Bill Hume says:

    If the Wee Ginger Dug wants me to march……I’ll march.

  186. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 5.29
    While I don’t necessarily disagree with the points you make Robert J…
    The real humiliating thing about Brext is that not enough Scots are shifting themselves to stop it happening to Scotland… and they could stop it easily!

    I’d take the view that some form of expression is needed on Brexit day,we ( the Yes movement ) cant just let it pass,no matter what our actual position is at that point in time!
    I’m with you in hoping that will be the date for Indy ref two,but would still say that since none of us really know,it would be better to have plans and not need them than need them and not have them!
    If the people of Scotland haven’t woke up to the potential damage of Brext, before it happened,then it will do no harm to have a huge reminder that we’re here and we offer a better future.
    Any activity that does that,such as lowering flags ect,can’t be a bad thing!!
    But as they say… There can be many a slip between the cup and lip,before Brext actually happens…
    We still haven’t even had that Court judgement yet and I think we need to start asking WHY..
    Is it being held back to let this supposed deal through…or to compete with the deal for the headline…

  187. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 6.19
    Wisnay me Ronnie you know I’m no a trouble maker,I’m quiet jist like you!!.. It wiz that Dug oan the other channel. LOL .

  188. Dan Huil says:

    Ireland continues to be the crucial factor in any brexit deal, or no-deal outcome, and thus an important circumstance on the immanent prospects of Scotland’s independence.

    It was never the “Irish Problem” as arrogant britnats saw it, it was always the “British Problem”

  189. Nana says:

    Latest on Brexit

    A senior EU official tells @rtenews tonight there will be “no breakthrough” on the backstop this week. This is not just because the UK cabinet is divided over whether there should be a NI-specific backstop as a final safety net, or because of the termination clause…

  190. harry mcaye says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    4 November, 2018 at 4:51 pm
    “Harry mcaye says:
    4 November, 2018 at 4:21 pm (Edit)
    Good article. Wee mistake though, Rosenborg are Norwegian not Swedish.”

    WOW! Did not expect that response! It said Sweden initially, you obviously then went and changed it but cannot admit you made a mistake.

  191. Fergus Green says:

    I like the idea of an idea whose time has come. Let’s march in March. Grass roots. No AOUB shenanigans.

  192. frogesque says:

    @ Nana 6.44

    That can’t be true, I’ve not seen it on the EBC!

    I mean, St. Theresa told us it’s all tickityboo and 95% a done deal.

  193. frogesque says:

    @ Fergus Green, 7.03

    I’m in!

  194. pipinghot says:

    Partnership of equals and all that bull, what would have been the result of the Scot Gov refusing to be removed forcibly from the EU.
    Genuine question

  195. Nana says:

    frogesque @ 7.05pm

    I know, it’s just so hard to believe that St Theresa would lie to us 🙂

  196. harry, he’s yanking yir chain.

  197. galamcennalath says:


    Yup, Tom Connelly at RTE is the best source, and most reliable, for what’s happening with Brexit.

    An astonishing state of affairs where we rely on foreign media to hear the truth. When you consider the historical equivalents, that’s a very scary thought.

    So, the current sticking point is lots of small print to allow a UK EU customs union without handing the UK an unfair trading advantage.

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    @harry mcaye
    That’s his style, he does it every time, makes the change, puts a post in capitals “THAT’S WHAT IT ALWAYS SAID”.

    I think it’s funny.

    Oh, sorry, I missed out the smilie 🙂

  199. yesindyref2 says:

    He probably doesn’t know how to do a smilie …

  200. Hamish100 says:

    c4 on now discussing Brexit. John Curtice there, Tory , labour, UKIP’s Farage, No SNP

    Freedom of the Press.

  201. Dr Jim says:

    Just watched the first ten minutes of channel four’s po faced drivel can’t do anymore and they probably didn’t have the SNP on because England thinks Brexit belongs to them and they don’t want to hear anything Scottish because we’ve been right all along and it could drop channel four’s viewing figures in England if us uppity Scots who have no right to interfere get to speak, especially if it was our most dangerous woman in Britain speaking

    Leave the lot of them to it and hell mend them

  202. Cubby says:

    Brexit: What the nation really thinks. On C4 now.

    The nation is stated as the UK by C4.

    Not one politician from N. Ireland, Wales or Scotland. Pathetic!!!!!!!!!!

    Nigel Farage manages a spot on the show. Says it all about our media England England England England -that’s all that matters.

    So the two nations that voted remain have no representation on the show that claims to tell us what the UK really thinks about Brexit

  203. galamcennalath says:

    Another twist in the Channel 4’s outrageous anti Scottish bias.

    In Twitter they report the results of a poll …

    ” Who do you think would have handled the Brexit negotiations better than Theresa May? “

    Options? Corby, Johnson, or Farage!

    F-ucking-arage! Who the Hell is he!?

    Why no option for the only UK political leader with a scoobie – Nicola Sturgeon?


  204. Bob Mack says:

    Channel 4 what the UK thinks is a bad title.

    Any minute we will have a chorus of Jerusalem or Land of Hope and Glory.

    I suppose it proves what we have all been saying of late, that you can lead whole populations down insane roads by promising the moon and giving them a 10 watt bulb instead.

    Scotland ? Who are they?

  205. galamcennalath says:

    Channel 4 behaving like Scotland has already departed. On one level that seems like an optimistic premonition. However, sadly, we haven’t actually opened the escape hatch yet.

  206. John Thomson says:

    Watched c4 nation decides on brexit words fail me

  207. Rock says:

    Hamish100 says:
    5 November, 2018 at 8:05 pm

    “c4 on now discussing Brexit. John Curtice there, Tory , labour, UKIP’s Farage, No SNP”

    The SNP should have walked out of Westminster for good when despite having 56 of Scotland’s 59 MPs, the Scotland Act (“The Vow Act:) got passed by without a single SNP amendment being taken into account.

    Don’t you agree Hamish100?

    Possible answers:

    1. Yes;

    2. No;

    3. Don’t know.

  208. Jock McDonnell says:

    On Panorama:

    Q: Why do you support Trump ?
    A: Cos he’s an Ass-Hole, which is what the country needs.

    I kid you not.

  209. Cubby says:

    On C4 Brexit programme. SIR John Curtice earns his knighthood by stating BREXIT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE to voting intentions in Scotland re independence. Scotland would vote no again to independence. His personal opinion of course because the large poll undertaken by C4 did not ask/ cover in any form the impact of Brexit on Scottish independence voting intentions.

    Curtice a BBC Britnat through and through masquerading as a professional objective analyst.

    This whole programme had no political balance anywhere. All the panel contributors were remain other than Farage. A very poor show by C4.

  210. Bob Mack says:

    Actually the Channel 4 poll did cover Scotland only voting intentions. The results were
    Vote indy more likely 38%
    Neither less or more likely 31%
    Don’t know 6%
    Definitely no change 25%

    This means it is all to play for. There are sufficient people wavering compared to indyref2, and all they need is for Brexit to fail, in order to come on board.

  211. Capella says:

    That poll puts YES over the line at 51% with NO 48%. Stu’s twitter has the figures.

  212. Capella says:

    Respondents were asked whether, from what they have seen and heard so far over Brexit, they would more or less likely to vote for Scottish independence.

    The figures would mean a majority of 51.39% for independence, with 48.61% against.

    So Sir Curtice is talking nonsense if he is saying that voting intentions are not affected by BREXIT in Scotland.

  213. K1 says:

    ‘The real humiliating thing about Brext is that not enough Scots are shifting themselves’

    On initial reading Liz…y’know what ah read it as?

    Kinda think it’s just as valid a way as putting it… 😉

  214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 17:57,


    But who knows? Stranger things have happened!

    galamcennalath @ 21:07,

    I have the feeling that a lot of English media have taken that attitude since 2014. Maybe retreating into their comfort zone and hoping “the Scottish problem” will just go away if they ignore it long enough.

    C4 is the TV equivalent of the Grauniad, all very “progressive” until their own ur-English hegemony comes into question, then they just can’t help showing their true-blue Establishment core.

  215. Capella says:

    Next we’ll be hearing that the law of gravity doesn’t apply in Scotland.

  216. Thepnr says:


    I think you’ll find that those figures are totally meaningless although they are to two decimal places which must mean something surely?

  217. Rock says:

    Capella says:
    5 November, 2018 at 9:34 pm

    “The figures would mean a majority of 51.39% for independence, with 48.61% against.”

    When do you think the next independence referendum should be held?

    Possible answers:

    1. Before the end of March 2019;

    2. Between April 2019 and December 2639;

    3. After December 2639;

    4. Don’t know.

  218. Iain mhor says:

    @Capella 11:01am
    Yes, that actually is pretty much it in a nutshell:
    “Give us a Parliament”
    But in 20 years nothing else asked.
    Now it is borne out by any survey and poll anyone cares to look at, that the Scottish Parliament is universely liked by all political persuasions in Scotland. As I’ve said elsewhere Scotland loves its Parliament. I cannot for the life of me think of any scenario where any interference by Westminster can be accepted.
    The issue of the creation of the Scottish Parliament, much like Brexit, leaves us clutching at straws. Yes, Scotland decided it should have its Parliament, yet where were the caveats? Where did the people of Scotland understand that their Parliament had a handful of limited powers and no Sovereignty. Anecdotally the majority of people I speak with have no idea what is devolved and what is not. They assume everything is devolved.

    The primary point I’m dancing around is, that if the Scottish Parliament came unto being as the will of the Scottish people, then so too its powers. In 20 years ( a-la New Zealand) why no annual referendum on powers which should accrue; until such point that only perhaps Defence was a reserved matter. With each referendum the issue of powers we have and powers we do not would have been reinforced. With each referendum voted on positively, the powers must accrue or Westminster must be seen to be defying the will of Scotland. Defying the Parliament the majority of Scots support.
    I would love to know why, even in the years (or even days as Breeks mentioned) following 2014, Holyroods powers were not being nailed down by plebiscite.

    Anyway, to avoid accusations O/T I’ll say : Media blind to politics and football, media pretty bad.. An English Team and an Irish team in Scotland bad. Sectarianism bad. SFA bad. Religious intolerance bad. HMRC bad also. Rangers EBT the best they could do. Total whataboutism follows – c’mon “whatabout” * insert plethora of national tax avoiding assholes here – Which HMRC were persuing the Rangers? Some grey Whitehall suits or was it East Kilbride. If it was, was there an agenda? If there was what drove it, sectarianism within the HMRC in Scotland? No idea, just trolling with some more whataboutery like the the pursuit of the Celtics shady tax dealings.
    Breaking news: Everybody and their dug with a shitload of money runs shady Tax Avoidance schemes. Tax is only for the little people. Anyone who can point me to a club anywhere, or players, managers, the SFA blazers, the TV companies showing you the games, the ticket distributors, the media reporting the scores, the pub chain you have your pre-match pint in, any of them – and tell me none are avoiding tax and I’ll call you a liar at worst and utterly naive at best.

    Ach I can’t keep it up. It’s so much bollox and I expunged it totally from my life many decades ago. The most honest football ‘supporter’ I know once said “I’m only in it for the bigotry, the fitbas actually shite”

  219. Essexexile says:

    A whole bunch of errors and typos in that data at first glance Nana, (although they’ve got the gammons and knuckle draggers in my adopted neck of the woods still staunchly leave, which is eminently believable).
    Also, shows much more than Scotland / NI is being dragged out of the EU against their will. Runaway train now though.

  220. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr – OK Mr Psephologist – explain why those figures are meaningless? (I’ve just been looking at the Survation site)

  221. Capella says:

    @ Rock – a therapeutic observation – eliminate the word “should” from you thinking. It is too prescriptive and guilt inducing. Use instead the word “could”.
    Reframe the question:

    Q When do you think the next independence referendum could be held.
    A Anytime soon.

  222. Brian Powell says:

    Still worth repeating no country ever became independent by watching polls, they argued for it.

    Channel Four, BBC, they are all old UK stuck in pre-2014, where people watched political programmes and said ‘tsk, that’s terrible’ then forgot all about it.

    We are not watching them now.

  223. Liz g says:

    K1 @ 9.36
    Ha Ha… Aye both work perfectly fine K1.
    And both are what a lot of Scots are going to have to be doing… and right soon…

  224. Thepnr says:

    Vote indy more likely 38%
    Neither less or more likely 31%
    Don’t know 6%
    Definitely no change 25%

    No matter how you divide these numbers up you can never get 51.39 and 48.61.

    Ignore just the don’t knows and split the Definitely no change you get 54% Yes.

    Ignore both don’t know and no change you get 55% Yes so where can 51.39% possibly come from other than someone’s imagination.

    Apart from the fact that vthe numbers don’t add up it’s a ludicrous question from which to make any attempt of a measure of support for Independence.

    A No voter might be more likely to vote for Independence because of Brexit so too might a Yes voter be less likely to vote for Independence because of Brexit.

    The question really tells you nothing at all about what people will vote for regards Independence and only how they feel Brexit impacts on that. We have no idea how they voted in the past nor even might do in the future from this question.

  225. Dr Jim says:

    I always find it odd how England is so concerned about getting the Irish *problem* right because they’re all afraid of *what might happen* if they don’t, and what they mean is they’re terrified folk are going to chuck bombs and bullets around and some of them may well be directed at England but nobody wants to say it

    How and why are they so sure Scotland isn’t waiting patiently all tooled up with stuff to do the same, although we’re more likely to do it with laptops and a cheeky wee glass of Ros^e and some nice cheese, nom nom

  226. Thepnr says:

    I shouldn’t have bothered as I just looked at the actual responses again and they tell you absolutely nothing about how someone might vote in Indyref2 so who in hell knows where 51.39% Yes came from.

    If anyone could help me out it’d be much appreciated.

  227. Bob Mack says:

    Despite the controversy over the figures which I am sure the Rev will publicise anyway, what hear tens me is the figures indicating the English public are very nearly 50/50 in seeing Scotland and Ireland as expendable for Brexit.

    The idiots up here in Scotland are fighting to be part of something ( British)in which 50% do not particularly want them anyway. It’s laughable

    “I’m in your club”

    “No your not”

    “Oh please let me in”

    “Go away”

    “I’ll vote for you anyway because I know you really like me”


  228. Cubby says:

    Cubby@9.15pm Bob Mack @9.23pm

    C4 Brexit programme.

    On reading back my comments I can see I did not say what I meant to say re Curtice comments on independence. What I meant was that the actual programme showed none of the stats on the screen for viewers to see the data or the questions asked. It was just Curtices verbal opinion in a very quick bit (seconds) almost as an afterthought, at the end of the programme. We should just take his word. That was the total comment on Scottish independence. Take a Britnats word on independence – don’t think so.

  229. Tom Kane says:

    @stu mac at 2.30pm
    Stu, well put. As you describe it, it doesn’t sound good what Rangers did… To be fair though, they really did have to start up from scratch again… they really did play in divisions 3, 2 and 1 and they brought a lot of money to all those teams they visited. They also did get kicked about on some of the worst pitches in Scotland… I am not standing up for them, but the new Rangers has started out by visiting and bringing a lot of excitement and money to leagues and clubs all over Scotland. It has much better karma than the old Rangers.

    I am totally with you on the sectarian problems and the institutional favouritism, though. The discrepancy in misregistering treatment is nasty. Respect.

  230. bjsalba says:


    Anybody listening to R4 this evening.

    UK Propaganda machine in full flow.

  231. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr – oh well – I thought that if more people are likely to vote for independence because of BREXIT than not (38 being a bigger number than 25) then, in spite of what Sir Curtice says, BREXIT does affect the vote in Scotland.

  232. galamcennalath says:

    Survation poll:

    Remain Vote (%)

    Employed Full time: 60%
    Unemployed: 56%
    Retired: 40%

    The retired willing to throw younger folks off the cliff, and for what? Nostalgia, ‘Britain’ of their youth, dislike of the way the world turned out, so pathetically sad.

  233. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:

    in spite of what Sir Curtice says

    I think he is showing himself to not be a neutral analyst. He seems to have an agenda.

  234. Thepnr says:


    Brexit does affect the vote in Scotland, I’m on your side and can look at this positively as well. It gives the impression that No voters might be more likely to vote for Independence because of Brexit.

    This I can definitely believe in 🙂

    However it is not a poll on the Independence question and the I have no idea where the BBC journalist that the Rev retweeted giving that 51.39% figure got that from.

    It’s almost as if he made it up, the BBC wouldn’t do that haha.

  235. Cubby says:

    thenpr@10.19pm. C4 Brexit programme.

    Now that I have looked at the actual Survation poll. How the hell does Curtice come to the conclusion that some voters change from yes to no and some change from no to yes and the end result is the same 55/45 as per 2014. What a load of mince.

    Britnats whose like them. No wonder they didn’t show any details in the actual programme. The details don’t fit in with SIR Curtices comments. Objective commentary – aye right Britnat propaganda more like.

    As thepnr stated earlier I too don’t think much of the value of the survey as regards Scottish independence all it seems to have done is give Curtice a platform to say nothing happening here. Scots are still in their box.

    Just another day. Just another Britnat programme on the English telly.

  236. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    This is somewhat O/T, but apposite I think in the context of where we are right now.

    I was watching YouTube on Obama’s impressive speech in support of the gubernatorial candidate in Georgia, and some of what he said, though in a somewhat different context, struck me very forcibly as also relating to us in our present predicament. Which is not surprising, really, since we are also trying to throw off a yoke of oppression. This is what he said (with slight amendments):

    It’s an old playbook. We’ve seen this before. […] It’s a playbook where the powerful and the privileged turn to whatever they can do to keep that power and privilege when they feel control is slippin’ away. They’ll say whatever it takes, even if it hurts the country, even when it puts people at risk… it’s a cynical game… But the good news is, […] in four days you can reject that politics.


    My dear friend […] John Lewis is here. John saw this game being played before. And the good news is that eventually we made the right choice as a country. Didn’t happen as fast as it should have, but eventually we chose our better history, our better selves. But it didn’t happen because everybody sat back and waited for them… John Lewis didn’t sit back and say “man, I hope that some day, things get better”… It happened because some people marched, some people mobilised, some people organised. And when they won the [opportunity], people voted, to make a better history. [applause]

    That is how changes happen. That’s how we […] overcame oppression […], that’s how we broadened… that’s how we broadened… the constitutional mandate […]

    As Frederick Douglas told us, power concedes nothing without a fight… Progress never comes without a contest of ideas and a contest of determination… and […] whenever we try to make that real, the status quo has pushed back.

    Oh for having someone equally inspiring to lighten our hearts and broaden the appeal of the incredibly simple notion of actually owning our own country.

    Obama is of course only getting attention right now because he is in the midst of an election campaign, and it is only when there is an opportunity to vote that there is an opportunity to change history.

    We are also at a crossroads, as Obama mentioned, and arguably an even more important one now even than America’s. We need to bring our own contest on soon, and instead of once again passively allowing things to be done to us against our will and moaning uselessly about it afterwards, to get full-on campaigning for our own different history.

  237. Thepnr says:

    The most ridiculous thing about someone quoting a poll to two decimal places such as 51.39% is that a typical poll of 1000 people is subject to the margin of error +/- 3%

    Using any decimal place then for such a survey is stupidity on stilts, apologies for being such a pedant that’s the engineer coming through. It’s even worse when it’s the BBC doing it and that’s what really winds me up.

    Hope there’s some news tomorrow, we’re in a lull that won’t last. This is the quiet before the storm. Keep the faith 🙂

  238. Golfnut says:

    “So Sir Curtice is saying”
    Maybe he has just let the cat out of the bag, that actually Yes has been over the 50% for a while and that this poll isn’t showing any increase on previous private polling. Just a thought.

  239. Hamish100 says:

    Curtice worked with Dimbleby in his earlier years. Now he’s a “Sir” he must be listened too by the plebs.

    His expertise is to guess better then others but he is OT just doing that he appears to try and influence debate.

    He is as biased as the rest of us!!

  240. HYUFD says:

    Survation had England voting Remain 53% Leave 47% now ie almost identical to the UK voting Remain 54% to 46% it had no Scottish independence figures other than meaningless more or less likely ones

  241. ben madigan says:

    @ Dr Jim who said at 10:22 pm:

    “I always find it odd how England is so concerned about getting the Irish *problem* right because they’re all afraid of *what might happen* if they don’t, and what they mean is they’re terrified folk are going to chuck bombs and bullets around and some of them may well be directed at England but nobody wants to say it”

    That’s because the Irish have “chucked bombs and bullets around” before, over and over again from the 19th C onwards.

    The English know some of the Irish are capable of doing it again, if pushed hard enough and if their backs are to the wall.

    PS It’s not an “Irish problem” –
    It’s one big “English problem” in Ireland.

    We don’t know why the English are still here.
    We have made it clear their governance is unwelcome

  242. Thepnr says:

    I quite like Curtice, he’s very measured in what he says anytime I’ve ever saw him on the telly. I’ve no doubt he leans on the Unionist side but im my opinion he at least tries not to let that show to often.

    I never saw the C4 programme tonight but from what I’ve read here he seems to be talking about polls from the recent past and not the C4 Survation poll we’re discussing now.

    Here’s a prediction of mine, see when we are winning then he’ll state that the Yes side is winning simply because that’s his job. Maybe I’m naive but I think the Prof cares more about being right than he does about the Union.

  243. Ian Mackay says:

    Can anyone confirm that the Survation Scottish independence poll on ~52% Yes and ~48% No – was excluding 16-18 year olds and EU citizens?

    If so then the Yes polling % numbers in reality will be a fair bit higher!

  244. Capella says:

    Well we can just round up or down and say that 51% of Scots would vote for independence because of BREXIT.

    Perhaps this explains the frantic unionist media displays of rage against indy supporters. Maybe this is why C4 omitted the SNP from their BREXIT special.

    That map of all constituencies was uniformly REMAIN in Scotland. Only Moray and Dumfries and Galloway got up to 40% LEAVE. BREXIT really is happening. Scottish voters are tending towards YES. The campaign hasn’t started yet.

  245. Capella says:

    @ Ian Mackay – from the tables the youngest age group is 18 – 24.

  246. Dan Huil says:

    When it comes to polls I always wait for James Kelly’s analysis at scotgoespop.

  247. HYUFD says:

    Panelbase Had it No 52% Yes 48% though even with a No Deal Brexit, close but No still edges it

  248. Hamish100 says:

    You can like Curtice all you like. He’s a unionist and is biased. Set up question by Channel 4 all prepared for Curtice to put down independence.job done. But then you know that.

  249. Dan Huil says:

    Britnats bricking it.

  250. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I don’t know what all the concern is about polling figures. Despite constant monstering, demonisation of Salmond and Sturgeon, daily diatribes of SNPbaaad in vitually all the media, the independence vote has never dropped and is now steadily moving up and we haven’t even started yet.

    Lies have a limited life and inevitably eventually destroy the liars.

    This is where we are. And I think we are close to a sustained movement. It’s called momentum. I just saw a fervent unionist tonight post “Goodbye UK”.

    That burning effigy of the tower tonight is probably more potent than many might imagine.

  251. Elmac says:

    RE HYAFUD @ 12.03

    Back again like a bad smell. Quoting gerrymandered polls run by establishment lackeys and printed by UK Pravda outlets. Bring it on and we’ll see how it turns out!

  252. Thepnr says:


    Thanks Hamish for telling me who I can like or not. Much obliged.

  253. HYUFD says:

    Elmac Bring it on? Survation has England voting 54% Remain now while Panelbase has Scots voting 52% No even in the event of a No Deal Brexit which Nats have been promising means independence is nailed on. Even in the even of No Deal it seems Yes cannot get a majority just as England is moving towards Remain and firmly anti No Deal!!

  254. Dr Jim says:

    Yoons on twitter delighted at the Michelin news, this is when you see clearly what kind of people these really are, it’s not politics it’s madness

  255. HYUFD says:

    Dr Jim The big shift tonight is the C4 Survation poll having Remain ahead in England now 53% to 47% for Leave, there were no headline Scottish independence vote figures in the poll.

    Of course if over 50% of English voters backed a No Deal Brexit then that would increase the chances of Scotland voting for independence (though the Panelbase poll shows Scots may still narrowly vote No) but the Survation poll shows English voters are turning against Brexit, let alone a No Deal Brexit

  256. Thepnr says:

    Here’s a point, see when you refuse to remove your own blinkers then you can only see the opposition in front of you. You fail to see those that might support you are right by your side because of the blinkers.

    Remove the blinkers and look all around and you’ll see friends as well as opponents. Despite appearances not everything is at it might seem, some people are just doing their job, I think Curtice is one of those people.

    He can only talk of the numbers that the polls give him, he doesn’t conduct the polls he just analyses them, when the polls start showing something else (if they ever do) then that’s what you’ll hear from him about Yes leading.

    I’m sure these gigs are lucrative for him and he welcomes them and not just for the money, if it wasn’t for the Independence referendum we would never have heard of him and why shouldn’t he milk it if he’s offered it?

    Take the blinkers off and look around, not everyone is our opponent and even though we expect flak at all times Prof Curtice is in my opinion more even handed that most.

    He just wants to talk numbers and the numbers are not of his making.

  257. Thepnr says:

    Who farted?

  258. Elmac says:

    Re HYAFUD @ 12.31

    Read what I said if you are capable of digesting it. The only true test will not be what the tory boy pollsters would like us to believe but what the electorate decide in the imminent Indyref2.

  259. Cactus says:

    Burpin’ in Glasgow city, busy furra Monday nicht…

    Must be ra fireworks..

    One is a merchant.

    It is to learn.


  260. Elmac says:

    HI Cactus

    Many’s the laugh I have had reading your nocturnal scribblings. More power to your elbow and stay out of range of them rockets and bangers.

  261. msdidi says:

    I have always been suspicious of Prof John (and the truth is) Curtice. He seems to be the only statistician on BritNat TV. I didn’t watch the CH4 programme last night but in every previous show I have seen he used his “and the truth is” catchphrase in nearly every 2nd sentence! To my mind a sure give away that he is distorting the truth! Theresa May uses it too but not as much as Sir John. He has earned his knighthood for services to politics over the last 4 years.
    O/T New Phantom Power film NATION NORWAY – the twin Nation is available now I saw this at its release on Thursday night and it is a worthy addition to their collection.

  262. Cactus says:

    A very guid morning to ye Elmac…

    Ra nicht is young.


    Somebuddies gotta do it.

  263. yesindyref2 says:

    I don’t know whether Survation corrected their poll page, but it now reads:

    “Q. From what you have seen and heard so far do you think that Brexit makes it more likely or less likely that you would vote to support an independent Scotland?

    Base: Respondents in Scotland only

    More likely: 38%

    Neither more nor less likely: 31%

    Less likely: 25%

    Don’t know: 6%”

  264. yesindyref2 says:

    The Survation poll about Brexit and Indy 3rd to 5th Oct showed, in the event of a no-deal Brexit:

    YES 52%
    NO 48%

    So much for selective see no, hear no, speak no – FUD 🙂

  265. TJenny says:

    Re Survation poll, Reply tweet from Survation to Ross Colquhoun, Strategist @theSNP, co-founder @wearenational, co-editor of Inspired by Independence & @eca_edinburgh alumnus.

    ‘Sorry to disappoint .@rosscolquhoun, but there isn’t a headline Scotland voting intention in tonight’s tables (Scotland was not weighted separately, so calculating the Westminster crossbreak for Scotland does not get you there. There is also no Scottish Indy Ref voting intention.’

  266. Thepnr says:

    As for the Survation poll, here’s what our own version of Prof Curtice has to say.

    It has been suggested to me by several people that the 51.4% and 48.6% figures are not from a specific poll question at all, but are just extrapolations of what would happen if you adjusted the 2014 referendum result on the assumption that No voters who say Brexit makes them “more likely” to support independence have in fact switched to Yes, and vice versa.

    If so, what we’re being treated to this evening is the most ludicrous misreporting of a poll that you could ever wish to see. I can only admire the impudence of whoever came up with the idea.

  267. yesindyref2 says:

    The relevant question in the tables is “Q4. From what you have seen and heard so far do you think that Brexit makes it more likely or less likely that you would vote to support an independent Scotland?”

    Totals are as per the post above:

    Much more likely 26.07%
    A little more likely 11.77%
    Neither more nor less likely 30.56%
    A little less likely 4.49%
    Much less likely 20.91%
    Don’t know 6.21%

    Split over YES / No, it could be twisted a bit to give some info, for instance those NO voters in 2014 more likely to vote YES = 17%, but those YES less likely to vote YES = 13.8%.

    Proportionate them to the 55% to 45% YES/NO 2014 vote and you get move to YES 9.35% minus 6.21%, a small nett gain for YES of 3%.

    That as Bill Gates would have said years ago, is a very QDOS (quick and dirty operating system).

  268. TJenny says:

    I was only quoting Survation. It’s all way over my head. 🙁

  269. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, I saw that tweet too. A little bit dishonest, frankly. If they’d said “There is also no EXPLICIT Scottish Indy Ref voting intention”, then they could have got away with it.

  270. Thepnr says:


    It appears that there is some basis for that 51.39% figure after all. I’ve downloaded the table and for that question it has been split into No voter and Yes voters.

    8% of No voters are now “much more likely” to vote for Independence.

    9% A little more likely

    However 4% of yes voters are a little less likely and a whopping 10% of Yes voters a “Lot less likely”

    Trying to mix that lot up into how people might vote in another referendum is a whole lot more convoluted than just asking the straightforward question.

    “Should Scotland be an Independent Country”

    Yes it should 🙂

  271. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 00:12:

    […] moving up and we haven’t even started yet.


    Polls schmolls. Forget all this earnest navel-gazing. Start a campaign in earnest and watch the numbers cross the 50 mark and rise. Then the game will really be afoot.

    We’re on the cusp, peeps. We just have to up the ante.

  272. yesindyref2 says:

    YES !

  273. yesindyref2 says:

    @RJS “Start a campaign in earnest

    What, at 2 O’clock in the morning?

    Oh well, if you say so, I’ll go chapping doors right now …

  274. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 02:04,

    Heh, heh, that’s the spirit, nightowl!

  275. Cactus says:

    Puta! Tried a couple of tables and it was merde, couldnae get comfy, too many players, one prefers a solo seated table.

    Welcome to John McLean Square, dat’s where ahm at.

    Operation pakora.


  276. Cactus says:

    Hough aye, mix pakora was denied et Cookies of Hope Street was ferme. 🙁 one has returned HOME now like, the sleepy watchmen is it…

    Dr Manhattan knows

    Welcome to future Br UKexit.

  277. Petra says:

    (Sir) John Curtice! A trustworthy, independent professional?! I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him.

    “However, hedge funds were spending the money to line up their own private polls – and Curtice was involved.”

  278. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr – you’re right about the poll being a little off piste – James Kelly will be saying more about it today so perhaps he will find some sense in all the numbers to crunch.

    As for Sir Curtice, I do recall him being a permanent fixture in R Scotland during Indyref1 and that is suspicious in itself! All their regular pundits were unionists and he isn’t the only one to be rewarded, he got a nice shiny gong.

  279. Alex Montrose says:

    Meanwhile, up at the Granite City, AFC recently asked for 20,000 tickets for a cup semi-final, played in Glasgow, on a Sunday, with a 4pm KO.
    They sold 10,000, how out of touch with their fans can a football club be?
    So could their move to a new stadium 8 miles from Pittodrie, prove to be another fukup, in a long line of fukups.
    Not least, failing to vote for a reconstruction of fitba in 2012, with the demise of RFC.

  280. Breeks says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    6 November, 2018 at 1:57 am
    Dave McEwan Hill @ 00:12:

    […] moving up and we haven’t even started yet.


    Yeah, can you remind me why that is again? Are we party to a joint campaign to make Scotland invisible, just like Tesco, Channel 4, and Westminster?

  281. Petra says:

    Yeah Boris we know how you feel. It’s a national humiliation for us that Scotland is still a ”vassal state: a colony.”

    ‘Theresa May’s latest plan to resolve the NI backstop impasse stalls.’

    ..”Former foreign secretary Boris Johnson has denounced the PM’s blueprint as “an absolute stinker”, arguing that the arrangement was a “national humiliation” which would leave the UK as “a vassal state, a colony”. ”..

  282. Petra says:

    @ Capella says at 6:52 am …. ”As for Sir Curtice, I do recall him being a permanent fixture in R Scotland during Indyref1 and that is suspicious in itself! All their regular pundits were unionists and he isn’t the only one to be rewarded, he got a nice shiny gong.”

    Take a look at the Bloomberg link I posted at 6:52 am Capella. It mentions Curtice and Indyref1.

  283. Ken500 says:

    AFC is one of the most successful clubs, Not up to their eyes p in debt, Or fiercing the punters. Run more succesfully, A wonderful overdue new Stadium. With no sectarianism and less violence. Nothing like from other Ckubs,

    Football Boys Club founded jailed for child sexual abuse. The management knew.

    Clubs up to their eyes in debt. Totally involved in illegal activities. They try to fleece the punters for all they are worth. Illegal business activities totally unacceptable and illegal in every way shape or form. Directors who should have been struck off years ago, Bigots, racist misogynists and paedos involved.

    Many of the Directors are next to gangsters. Protected by corrupt politicians instead of being investigated. Corruption politicians who should be investigated instead of fleecing the public on tax avoidance schemes. Affiliated to ruining the industry. They are above the Law. No wonder the teraces are empty. People are sick of it. The corruption used as an excuse in sport. No playing the game or sticking to the rules. Just a money laundering scheme for corrupt officials. Everyone else is paying for it.

    The taxman cometh in 2019,

  284. Nana says:

    With only 51% of English university graduates working in graduate level jobs, and with Centre for Policy Research suggesting that National Insurance be abolished for the low paid, can any public sector employer ever afford to pay the real living wage?
    And we are better together with this UK?

  285. Nana says:

    Grenfell Effigy Burning Is Out Of Order

    Check out the replies

    My question to pro-Europe MPs: will you take on the Brexit conmen?

  286. Petra says:

    ‘On house building, Tory’s may job is no match for SNP’s dae job (Geddit?)!’

  287. Nana says:

    Brexit: marching up to the top of the hill…

    Very occasionally a truth bomb sneaks onto BBC News. Happened on this report about the army recruitment crisis and Capita’s role in it. The reporter, Jonathan Beale, even sneaks a ‘Crapita’ reference in. When will the Tories learn they can’t privatisatise everything?

    Don’t know how many times the brexiters need telling

  288. Capella says:

    @ Petra – wow! That is quite a revelation, Bloomberg Businessweek, thx for posting. I will need some time to digest all that but it highlights the duplicity and corruption in the heart of the British state.

  289. Dorothy Devine says:

    RobertJSutherland, Obama speaks well and has a nice smile – sadly he failed as POTUS . he dromned weddings in Afghanistan ,he ‘ tortured some folks” and he did not close Guantanamo.

    Had Clinton won last time , I think the world would be at war . The people had little choice between a warmongering hawk and an unknown.

  290. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana.


    Jeezo, 71% of all Americans don’t have college degrees.


    George Kerevan: ‘Is the US a democracy? Let’s bust the myths of the mid-term elections.’

    ..”Myth #2: Trump represents the white working class.

    This is a myth propagated in the UK, most assiduously by the BBC and London print media. It is rubbish. Only a third of Trump voters in 2016 had an income below the US median of $50,000. True, 69% of Trump voters did not have a university degree. But 71% of all Americans don’t have college degrees.”..

  291. HYUFD says:

    Yesindyref2 So that is still not the decisive win for Yea forecast in the even of No Deal, one poll has it 52% No to independence with No Deal one poll 52% Yes. As Survation also showed most English voters now back Remain anyway

  292. Ken500 says:

    The Polls are being used to manipulate the result. Polling companies censured and fined many times. Always getting it wrong with inadequate methology and breaking guidelines. Breaking electoral rules with impunity. Paid for by illegal dark money. Illegal accessing of data. Against the electoral Laws and gerrymandering, Taking part in illegal campaigns. Paid for by private and public money to manipulate the Polls, Breaking the Law with impunity,

    Fraudsters are using the Polls totally illegally to make £Millions from deliberately misjudged election polling results. The methodogy and guidelines being broken. They are censored and fined many times. The wrong expected results being manipulated, to give the opposite intentions. Then publicised without proper analysis. Not analysed correctly. So millionaire fraudsters can make £Millions on the stock exchange. Hedge funds hedging their bets.

    Most pollsters companies are illegally gerrymandering to make money. Trying to pull the wool over the electorate’s eyes. Trying to manipulate the data and the result for money. Totally illegally. The Head of the association’s duplicity being paid for by the State. Just more political manipulation to cover up illegality. The corruption of the State, The public paying to be deceived.

    The so called ‘experts’ always getting it wrong for money. The whole propaganda exercise. No surprise there. Throwing up ‘surprises’. False shock horreur. When the results are wrong. Faking it, instead of bricking it. Getting away with it, The vulnerable and the sick pay for it. The corrupt political system. No Democracy, Just crass liars. Westminster in the thick if it. Covering it up under the Official Secrets Act.

  293. HYUFD says:

    Nana 52% of Scottish graduates are not in graduate level jobs either so it is also an issue of Scottish universities taking on too many students for the graduate jobs available just as it is for English universities

  294. HYUFD says:

    Petra Trump’s biggest support came with those earning $50 000 to $99 999 ie middle income earners of whom he won 49% to 46% for Hillary. Hillary tied Trump with the richest voters earning over $250 000 a year

  295. Ghillie says:

    University is not a job center.

    University is a place of learning.

  296. mike cassidy says:


    You’re going to miss the school bus!

  297. Macart says:


    On that last piece you posted? Yes that is exactly how it looks. A PM under threat from her own cabinet. And yes, I’d say there are significant players who want the hardest of hard brexits to suit their own ends. It certainly isn’t for the good of the populations on these islands.

    Folk are about to find out soon enough what they voted for and taking back control ain’t it in a parliamentary sovereignty. (bools in mooth) Those powers they think they’re regaining? They belong to parliament and the crown from yer Rees Moog’s viewpoint. They don’t really belong to the serfs. Mind you the hoi polloi do have their proven uses. Under the right handling and direction of course.

    Tories (shrugs). It’s pretty much what they are.

  298. Les Wilson says:

    Here is excepts from something important. Google, twitter and facebook are to censor the Web, in order to make it safer and er nicer.

    They are to censor left wing groups and anti establishment sites.They have already started this. However if I find a usable link I will post it( I did and it is below). Here is just a few snippets of this from the company who included the link at the bottom of their communication.

    “Google said it would de-platform us unless we changed our ideas and how we express them. (We refused and are now blacklisted.)

    “And as we told you here, Facebook is also deciding what you can and cannot read online. Last month, it purged the accounts and pages of 800 independent media outlets.”

    “But as we told you when news of the purge broke, it’s not that neat and tidy. Many of the folks Facebook blacklisted were alternative news outlets with left-leaning, libertarian, and anti-establishment views.”

    “Silicon Valley isn’t targeting the left or the right…

    It’s targeting any form of dissent.”

    “When you boil it down, this is a struggle between those who want to decide what’s acceptable for other people to think… and those who prefer to think for themselves.”
    (I found a link where the whole document can be downloaded, below)

    “Consider the secret Google briefing that recently leaked to the press.” here is a link to download that document

    “It’s titled the “The Good Censor.” It’s 85 pages long. And if you value the most sacred of American rights ( or anyone’s rights really) – freedom of speech – it will make your skin crawl.”

    (don’t worry it will suit countries like the UK down to the ground)

    That effectively means that no one should question authority under the guise of making the Internet “safer and better place” or their platform will be banned.

    Big data will only allow what is acceptable to them, and that means censorship could happen on anything we write or upload, and it stinks, it should concern us all.

  299. Breeks says:

    Ghillie says:
    6 November, 2018 at 8:33 am
    University is not a job center.

    University is a place of learning.

    University education might also be one of the more definitive yardsticks whereby the rank stupidity and isolationist agenda of Brexit reveals itself over the positive consequences of maintaining free movement of students, research, and common objective.

    I say we monitor Scottish Universities as a model test case, and document their sustainability and progress with continued EU Membership, and compare it to the “liberated” Universities of England languishing in the loneliness and bleak perpetual winter of Brexit, where graduates and undergraduates alike are lumbered with crippling debts.

    Isn’t it funny how BritNats always cite the performance of Scotland subjugated and disadvantaged by the Union, invariably represents Scotland’s optimal performance? I don’t care how fast Scotland can run with its shoelaces tied together. I want to see us running unhindered.

  300. Ken500 says:

    The way the Westminster unionists are carry on is completely despicable. The useless complete ignorant and incompetence. They are lying though their teeth. All the time. To try and cover up. Wasting £Billions. ‘Austerity’ was totally unnecessary. The tax revenue take was rising, (£Billions). Sanctioning and starving people just appalling and totally unnecessary. It just costs more in other services. Totally counter productive. Taking away people’s dignity, especially the vulnerable. Giving the wealthy tax breaks. Many tax evaders getting more. Increasing the chronic gap between society and damaging communities.

    The Brexit carry on is so completely wrong. On so many counts. A complete fabrification of the truth. The lies and fraud of UK Gov. Worrying people unecessarily. Making people sick and anxious because of Westminster unionist corruption. Causing mental health problems. Cold, starving worried people get sick. £Billions being misappropriated and mismanaged by Westminster unionists. Total complete and utter ignorant incompetents. They can’t count or read a balance sheet.

    The illegal wars causing the worse migration crisis since the 11WW. Then corrupt politicians trying to use the crisis they have caused to blame the EU and others. Totally illogical. Trying to make a complete mess of unnecessary increased expense, red tape and bureaucracy. It will cost more to leave. Adding to the ruin of the world economy.

    The European countries are having to try and manage the total mess that Westminster unionist corrupt politicians have caused. Costing £Billions, £Trns wasted by Westminster lying totally incompetent ignorant unionist politicians.

    Misappropriating funds and mismanaging the Scottish economy as well. Since 1928 and before. Instead of stepping up to their responsibilities trying to keep it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Now they are deliberately trying to ruin the Scottish/UK world economy. The total lack of Democracy in Scotland aka Westminster. Scandalous and completely wrong.

    Farague on the BBC, He should be in jail for fraud, corruption abd embezzling public funds. Using public money to fund a political Party, Totally illegally and none disclosure of accounts. The BBC liars fuelling the fire, The £3.7Billion cost for propaganda.

  301. Ken500 says:

    Google workforce are coming out in protest. They might find it harder to delete and censor. The employees are restless, tired of the double standards and being used and abused. Where people lead others will follow. They want more ethical behaviour. Less cover up. Zuckerberg’s criminality is being exposed by the employees. Leaks and whistle blowers. Thank goodness for the internet.

  302. manandboy says:

    1.”On Brexit, we will never accept discrimination based on skills and nationality.

    2.We will never accept an extension on article 50.

    3.Enough mess has been created by Brexit. Let’s stop it!

    4.We will never undermine the principles of our Union to rescue the Tory Party.” Guy Verhofstadt.

    If Theresa May is representative of what is British, and Guy Verhofstadt is representative of what is European, then I am unreservedly European. So is the clear majority in Scotland.

  303. manandboy says:

    Breeks, ‘shoelaces tied together’. As an image of Scotland it is without peer. Inspired.

  304. Famous15 says:

    By now Sotland should be shifting itself but the avalanche of pro Union propaganda,clear for all to see on the newstands and hear on STV and BBC is holding back any movement. When the campaign starts for Indyref2 we can provide a laxative for the truth to come forth.

    As Freud would say,that aint a slip.

    Seriously folks,in the last campaign YES moved up twenty points.This time we start at 52%.

  305. Nana says:

    Grenfell Tower bonfire: Five men arrested over video

    Britain has never looked so foolish in the world’s eyes

    That’s all for today

  306. Ken500 says:

    Hilary won by 3million votes. D’Hond’t. The loser won. Trump hasn’t started a 111WW yet. Clinton would have had the military on the Russian border. Killing and maining. Another European war. Instigated by US politicians. Mercenaries for the Saudis and Israel. An absolutely despot monarchy and an Apartheid State, Breaking International Law with impunity. Supported by the US/UK. Totally illegally.

    The EU established to try to stop war and starvation.

  307. Nana says:

    Morning Macart
    “Mind you the hoi polloi do have their proven uses. Under the right handling and direction of course”

    Aye Macart don’t they just and we have our very own easily led numpties only too eager to do their bidding.

    Geez, anyone looking and listening to Mogg and thinking “he’s the man on the side of the workers” need their brains rinsed.

  308. Breeks says:

    3 miles to nearest Tesco. 17 miles to nearest Lidl.

    Ach well, not very green, but they do say travel broadens the mind.

    Geniune question… since a Saltire confirms a product to be GM free because GM products are banned here, whereas a butchers apron or red tractor does not, is Tesco breaking any rules when it mixes both packs together on the same shelf? Or worse, opens the pack to sell it loose? I once bought 2 packs of rasps, only to find the one on top with the Saltire sat on a Jacked packet beneath.

    They do it regularly… putting boxes Saltired fruit and Jacked fruit in the same box so you might pick up either if inattentive…

  309. Breeks says:

    Point I missed was to say if Tesco bans the Saltire, can we reciprocate and demand they lable ALL Union Jacked produce sold in Scotland with a statutory warning – “May contain Genetically Modified Product”.

  310. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Nana: so much to read and digest in your links this morning. Sometimes it’s a bit like when you were wee and watched Dr Who half-behind the sofa during the scary bits with the daleks and cybermen, except now everything is scary because of Brexit madness. The sickos in the news today with their Grenfell Tower effigy are just a small part of the sick attitudes which Farage, the BBC & Co have normalised ablaw the dyke.

    Boris/Calton Jock’s articles above on the Establishment’s favourite civil servant are a real eye-opener. In case anyone missed them:

    No wonder Gordon Brown was singing his praises.

  311. manandboy says:

    It’s amazing how often a photograph appears in the media of Theresa May leaving 10 Downing Street carrying a large storage file in her left arm.
    Every little helps I guess when brainwashing is your primary goal.

  312. Nana says:

    Morning Tinto
    I’d stay behind the sofa if I were you
    Watch out ‘The Icemen cometh 🙂

    Pete wishart on the new BBC channel

    Tell them what you think

    As Cabinet meets, road hauliers increasingly frustrated at being 100 days from what they describe as “chaos” of No Deal/ no transition… eg this from @RHADuncanB at Lords last week… yesterday a partial lottery for highly limited haulage permits revealed

    That is definitely all for now

  313. Breeks says:

    Nana says:
    6 November, 2018 at 10:04 am

    Pete wishart on the new BBC channel

    Tell them what you think….

    I think current barge poles may be of insufficient length.

  314. Dr Jim says:

    Every week Theresa May answers Ian Blackford with the same words *It’ll be good for the whole of the UK and Scotland*

    So we’re separate then

  315. Nana says:


    nice and sharp with a pointy end 🙂

  316. manandboy says:

    The whole truth about Scotland’s independence Referendum in 2014 has been successfully buried by the British government. So here’s a reminder.

    The Tory Party has had, and still has, strong links with SCL, Strategic Communications Ltd. SCL ‘manages’ elections across the globe, including ‘micro-targeting’.

    Why would such a company NOT be used in a Scottish Referendum that Westminster HAD TO WIN in order to retain the undisclosed but massive revenues from Scottish Oil,Gas & Renewables industries.

    At the time of the Scottish Independence Referendum, the Ministry of Defence employed SCL and paid it £150,000 for undisclosed work.

    There is no such thing as coincidence where the British Establishment is is concerned.

  317. Cubby says:


    I think the key sentence in your post is you did not see the C4 programme. I did and he said the voting intentions are same as per 2014. Cannot see how he got that from the Survation which is what the whole programme was about. I am not saying he should have said a different more favourable to independence figure either. As they only gave a few seconds to Scottish independence and no details of the survey displayed. All we got was Curtice saying Scots are still in their box. That was the sum total of comment on Brexits impact on voting intentions in Scotland. Why not show the actual figures on screen?

    I used to think Curtice many years ago was immune to Britnat bias. Dropped that misconception some time ago.

  318. Fred says:

    Sir Curtice’s agenda is coining it in for Sir Curtice!

  319. gus1940 says:

    I have previously mentioned my concern that The National has embarked on a divide and rule exercise re The SNP and Indy.

    Further evidence today with MI5’s favourite tartan tractor Sillars being given the opportunity to bump his gums.

  320. Ghillie says:

    Breeks @ 9.02 am

    Monitoring how the Universities fare through this disaster could be a good PHD study.

    As a student in the 70’s I had a strong feeling that it was the University of Edinburgh (and Herriot Watt!) that gave our capitol such an international feel. (tourism and the multitude of festivals had not yet reached the heady peaks we see now!)

    But the Universities throughout Scotland are already suffering the loss of the massive international academic input we have enjoyed up till now. This is heartbreaking.

    The EU funding will be going soon too.

    The repercussions of the brexit idiocy reach way way beyond the Dover tail backs, shortages and cues in the shops.

    Come on Scotland!

    Our shoelaces may be tied…for now (credit Breeks) but we ARE still pushing forward and gaining ground 🙂

  321. Cubby says:


    Thanks for posting the link to Bloomberg. Re the part on Curtice I always wondered why there were no exit polls during tv coverage of indyref and EU ref. Curtice advised there was no value in them. Bloomberg then says the pollsters then made a fortune doing their own private exit polls. Seems there was value in them but just not to the general public.

    Curtice is just another Britnat who does a better job of hiding his allegiances more than most – Priority 1 – making money. Priority 2 – saving the union. Priority 3 – makning more money.

    The whole article highlights the disgusting money making activities going on hidden from sight during both referendum. Farage features as well – surprise surprise. London is like Gotham.

  322. Sharny Dubs says:

    They can tell themselves as many times as they like that “Scotland is in it’s box”

    We know the truth.

  323. K1 says:

    Re the Bloomberg article:

    Farage knew the outcome even though he conceded to Remain, twice on the night of the vote after the polling stations had shut. The pound tanked when it was clear Leave had won, literally hundred of millions of pounds made for the hedge funds…in essence insider info gained through private polling. Of which it seems that he personally has gained from through this?

    Could this also explain Ruth Davidson’s knowledge of the result of indy2014 before the actual votes where even counted?

  324. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dorothy Devine @ 07:43,

    I was expecting some negativitist quibbler to respond to this one and completely miss the point, so you didn’t disappoint.

    There’s an old saying “the perfect is enemy of the good”. Which is the main reason why the left rarely get power and the right often do. Too many leftard quibblers when power is there for the taking.

    [sarcasm] But no doubt the Trump authoritarian populist alternative is quite to your liking. [/sarcasm]

  325. Petra says:

    @ Cubby / K1 …. ‘Curtice.’

    There’s some massive corrupt ‘network’ in this country and Curtice, imo, is part of it. It wouldn’t surprise me if Dirty Money Davidson was involved too.

    If anyone hasn’t seen this video before take a look as it highlights that exit polls being carried out is absolutely *essential* for US. Hopefully we’ll be a lot wiser next time round.

    ‘Programmer under oath admits computers rig elections.’

  326. Cubby says:

    Sharny Dubs@12.59pm

    The lid is off the box and loads of Scots have climbed out. More will follow soon – they are looking over the edge of the box to see what it’s like and looking at the Britnats below them at the bottom of the box shouting no surrender etc etc .

  327. Rock says:

    Capella says:
    5 November, 2018 at 10:11 pm

    “@ Rock – a therapeutic observation – eliminate the word “should” from you thinking. It is too prescriptive and guilt inducing. Use instead the word “could”.
    Reframe the question:

    Q When do you think the next independence referendum could be held.
    A Anytime soon.”

    I asked when it SHOULD be held in YOUR esteemed opinion.

    I take it that your “Anytime soon” means anytime before December 2639?

  328. Gary says:

    I’d happily see them, and all the other teams dependent upon sectarian support, go out of business.

    THAT is also part of their business model. No doubt there ARE catholic Rangers supporters but I’ve personally never heard of one.

    They, and Celtic, used to at least pay lip service to keeping religion out of football. It didn’t last though. My local Rangers Supporters Club (Greenock) is home the Orange Band. They practise in their hall and there are also marches which start at their premises. Even the Orange Order would concede they are a ‘religious organisation’ so that puts the lie to their idea of keeping sectarianism at bay. They depend on sectarianism for their support! Without it, they’d have no fans!

    NB that doesn’t let Celtic off the hook either, the majority of their support comes from the same sectarian way of thinking. I’d happily see them gone too…

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