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The seven-year ditch

Posted on February 15, 2018 by

Presented without comment, covering a period of THREE major national referendums, EIGHT elections (UK, Scottish, EU, council) and of course the death of Rangers.

What we’re saying is, it’s not like there wasn’t any news.

(Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

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  1. 15 02 18 17:56

    The seven-year ditch | speymouth

265 to “The seven-year ditch”

  1. Alastair watson says:

    All in all it is cheap toilet paper

  2. Betty Boop says:

    I’m surprised they are still selling so many..!

  3. David Mills says:

    Pull up pull up your going to c….. What am I saying! “So long and thanks for all the pish”

  4. Marie Clark says:

    well they were the braggarts who splashed THE VOW all over their front page. Urged the shipyard workers to vote no, and believed all the crap from the Unionist parties.

    Do you think that perhaps they have begun to realise that slab are a busted flush, and Corbyn a complete waste of time. I seem to recall just after the brexit referendum, that they said that the would have to consider supporting independence. Well, how’s that working out, huh?

    Hell mend them.

  5. fillofficer says:

    SNP education policy wreakes havoc as reading levels plummet, he he

  6. Winifred McCartney says:

    Could not happen to a nicer lot – and still they wonder WHY.

  7. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Graphs without origins, my old maths teacher warned me all about them! =laugh=

    I just wish the evident decline was entirely just reward for its promotion of the deadbeats of the British Labour Party and that mendacious “Vow”.

    But there’s still a part of me that wishes there was some way that decent journalism could find a good place to be in a future Scotland.

  8. BLMac says:

    So assuming their faithful readership is now almost all Yoon, they’ve managed to lose the 60% who support Scotland.

  9. Chris says:

    Anyway to get Website hits? I would imagine all paper formats will be in decline now?

  10. Graemeo Rab says:

    My parents still buy the rag and they vote Independista. Old habits. I wonder how many more folk do the same.
    God speed the DR’s demise.

  11. Bradford Millar says:

    Alex Salmond and his consortium instead of trying to buy the Scotsman …. should instead buy the record and give it a massive slant towards the SNP and Indy

  12. Croompenstein says:


  13. Bob Mack says:

    Is that graph in direct correlation to the UK economy?

  14. ScottieDog says:

    Meanwhile the snp can do no right. Criticised for not doing the day job then along comes Mr radical indy saying they aren’t making a case for indy. That’s because the case is being made for them Mr shafi. Sigh

  15. Brian Powell says:

    I think it was IScot that pointed out there are still more people who support Independence buying Unionist papers that buy pro-Ind papers.

    Tho I would guess it’s mainly old people who buy papers.

  16. Luigi says:

    Now that is what I call a nose dive.:)

  17. Socrates MacSporran says:

    During my lengthy career in Journalism, spent mainly in freelancing, I have somehow managed to largely avoid working for the Daily Record. On the few occasions I have had something to do with that paper, I have seldom been impressed.

    There has long been this attitude of: “We are right and everyone else is wrong” about the paper, even when they are clearly and demonstrably wrong. This, I do not think, will ever change.

    Just the other week I did a blog piece on this absurd story of a £7 million Chinese bid for Morelos of Rangers. Anyone with half a brain could see, Rangers are skint, living a hand-to-mouth existence and reliant, in the past week or so, of a “lender of last-resort”, since no reputable bank will touch them.

    There was no way Rangers could have afforded to turn down a genuine £7 million bid for the player, but, the Record writer who wrote the story, a good friend of mine, took the huff at me, and felt insulted.

    That’s the problem with the Record, they cannot ever admit to being wrong – even when they are, and this is hurting them, badly.

    Mind you, the entire Scottish press corps is in melt-down, with executives running round like headless chickens failing to see why they are in a mess.

    Scotland has changed, its press has not – hell mend them.

  18. frogesque says:

    Why worry? Be happy!

    Good old Aunty will provide free journalists for the dying scroats.

    I wonder how many will be allocated to The National

  19. wull2 says:

    Hope the people who advertise in the comic see this.
    By the way I like comics, so I should not have used that word.

  20. ronnie anderson says:

    I tried phoning Daily Record on my Car phone couldn’t get through …. ah it wiznae ah Carphone ware hoose phone ma mistook . I wunner what it costs for a full frontal page advert nooaday’s in the Retard .

  21. Doug McGregor says:

    Newspapers are only produced to get into the “what’s in the newspapers ” slots on radio and tv to ensure their proprietors grasp on the agenda.

    There is a slight movement though , what social media and bloggers are saying is creeping into those media but when numbers properly count will they be reporting your blog daily in Scotland , I’m not gonna hold my breath , although by rights it should be there.
    Maybe a concerted effort from all your regulars combined with your viewing figures might get a little result or will we be denied the oxygen of publicity , as per usual.

  22. Dan Huil says:

    Oh dear, what a shame. Deffffinaiiiiitly.

  23. Hector McGillivray says:

    I stopped reading it when Ewen Bain sadly passed, the only thing in it worth reading was Angus Og.

  24. Returnofthemac says:

    I feel I must take some credit for this nosedive as I frequently accidentally of course cover this and the other shit wragg with the National in my local supermarket. Haven’t been rumbled yet.

  25. Balaaargh says:

    It is a bit unfair to post just the dead trees sales figures. The media as a whole has had to embrace the rise of the internet in the last decade. It would be interesting to see their web stats as well.

    Still funny, though.

  26. Dan Huil says:

    A related link given by Nana on a previous post:

  27. wull2 says:

    WM are trying to use Scottish Independence as a squirrel in Brexit.
    Let them show their hand first, the EU to show them the door, then call indf2.

  28. Trinity Mirror who own the Daily Record are to get 63 BBC Democracy Reporters,

    a rough calculation would mean Trinity Mirror will receive £35,000,0000 from the UK state run BBC,

    Daily Record could save itself just by reporting the truth , it doesn`t have to support Independence just report the truth,

    but Trinity Mirror will never allow a fair unbiased view they will sacrifice their Scottish paper to keep in with the BBC/State,

    that is why they have kept such a mercenary hack like Murray Foote as editor.

  29. Petra says:

    I noticed someone on here mention that the Daily Record seems to have bucked up recently and is publishing more fair-minded articles including catigating the SLab. Maybe the penny has started to drop in line with their sales?

  30. Macart says:

    Ayup! That’ll leave a mark.

  31. Robert Louis says:

    The Daily Record, the supposedly Scottish paper that danced to London’s jig, and plastered their deceitful ‘vow’ across their front page, to try to prevent Scotland running its own affairs like ALL other normal countries do. The vow, like everything else from our English masters in Westminster, was a lie. It was the ultimate act of betrayal, by London and the Daily Record.

    Mibbes the Record will think twice before doing so again.

  32. Donald anderson says:

    They are part of the horrible Mirror Group and rely on the Old Firm bans for sales. Like the Daily Wail they have bundles left over every day to pulp. They are being subsided because of their filth in Scotland.

  33. Robert Graham says:

    OH Dear How Sad

    A very astute business decision by the Record backing one side and daily lying to the other side worked well eh .

    Never a great idea alienating half of your prospective customers it will probably go down in history alongside Gerald Ratners selling crap comment .

    I wonder if the record will take ownership of the now orphaned VOW

  34. gus1940 says:

    When are the next set of circulation figures for The Scotsman and Herald due?

    Has there been any movement on the attempt to take over Johnston Press involving Eck?

  35. frogesque says:

    @Louigi 4.35

    Not so much a nosedive, more a belly-flop

  36. Fred says:

    Torcuil Crichton must take some of the blame! the only peeps that still buy it anyhow do so for the racing!

  37. HandandShrimp says:

    There was a time when the reach of newspapers was incredible. Every household bought at least one and some bought two or three. When I was a tad younger papers were everywhere. The office had just about every paper printed and you could swap with colleagues at lunch time. Buses, trains and planes were awash with discarded papers. Even the Metro doesn’t seem to be as prevalent as it was for a while.

    I do wonder if we are approaching the point of terminal decline for the printed press. The Record used to sell over 700,000 copies a day. Mind you for all their money and sales back in the day they never broke stories on Savile et al. They weren’t a hell of a lot of use as beagles of the truth.

  38. Ian McCubbin says:

    Best used to light fires. Lets hope a free Scotland is close.

  39. heraldnomore says:

    Heard the fragrant Ms Burnside sounding off about the Express earlier, and how the Record got it right about Meg’n’Arry. Thankfully Cosgrove and O’Neill were in their usual ebullient form anent Bojo et al.

  40. Jimmy says:

    I VOW never to buy this chip-wrapper.

  41. jfngw says:


    I believe most newspapers now are considered too toxic for even wrapping chips.

  42. Petra says:

    It wasn’t just the Vow. I bought the Daily Record every day to monitor what was going on. The propaganda tactics that they used were beyond the pale. I used to post on their online site every day too and informative posts were removed in an instant leaving the Unionist SNP Baad drivel. Seems that they’re paying the price for all of that now. Chickens coming home to roost as they say.

  43. heedtracker says:

    Lying shitrags see reader numbers fall through the floor, shock? no.

    Yoonster headlines write themselves.

    We’ll still get twerps like ukok Torcuil rammed down our throats by massed ranks of beeb gimps, indyref2.

  44. stu mac says:

    @Petra says:
    15 February, 2018 at 5:16 pm
    I noticed someone on here mention that the Daily Record seems to have bucked up recently and is publishing more fair-minded articles including catigating the SLab. Maybe the penny has started to drop in line with their sales?

    Naw, it’s just one of these periods of infighting in SLAB and the Record is going into neutral mode until it sees who comes out on top.

  45. Snode1965 says:

    It almost makes you wonder why Murray Foote is still in a job.

  46. Thepnr says:

    The written word as espoused by Newspapers has been going down the tubes for a long time. Not really surprising though to see the Daily Record tight up there in the lead with the biggest fall in readership of all.

    What more could you have expected when you voluntarily decide to ignore half of your potential readership? The people are getting it and therefore not buying it.

    Their website is as bad as the Daily Mails, full of pictures and advertisements that just want to extract your hard earned for next to nothing. “Take our IQ test” then pay £14.99 for the results. What a joke they have become.

    The papers are a joke that nobody laughs at, a complete waste of ink on paper for anyone that takes information seriously.

    Do not buy them and don’t pay for the lies from BBC Scotland either. Cancel your license, what’s to lose? Nothing except lying journalists and TV reporters. Better options are available for less than the price of a license.

    We need to start afresh with a media that is fit for purpose, one that informs. As of now that doesn’t exist, we can change that.

  47. CmonIndy says:

    My brother still buys the Record. He’s ill, you know.

  48. galamcennalath says:

    Not sure what to make of the graph. Is it steeper than any other BritNat propaganda pamphlet? How has the Express or Scotsman dropped over the same period?

    Also, most readers probably now ignore the politics.

    Perhaps the important thing is that the BritNats are having weapons removed from their arsenal, and not really replaced by anything significant. I seriously doubt if their online versions have the same impact as ‘the papers’ did in the past.

    The real trouble maker is the BBC. The most we can hope for between now and Indy is that more and more people see through their propaganda. Because, lets face it, they certainly aren’t going to stop before Indy!

  49. Douglas says:

    I usually smile when I see mature, usually rotund men with greying hair tending towards balding sitting studiously reading their newspapers with their glasses perching on the nose as they look over the rim of their glasses. Sometimes they may be toying with a pen in their hand, perhaps one of those wee ones from the bookies, looking as if they are fully absorbed by the crossword. I wonder if they are thinking over the events unfolding in the world as they read the paper. Then they sit up and re-adjust the pages of the paper that they are reading, and there it is, they are doing the spot the difference game on the puzzle page of the Daily Record……

  50. Sarah says:

    O/T I’m boycotting Spanish goods because of their treatment of Catalonia [of course] BUT this boycott is ruining several of my favourite recipes because my only local shop, Tesco, has taken to stocking Spanish peppers. Today I trekked 60 miles to Inverness and found Morrisons and Lidl also only have Spanish peppers.

    Whatever happened to all those Netherlands peppers that I used to avoid buying? Can anyone tell me of any shop which sells non-Spanish peppers, please?

  51. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Petra at 5.16

    Indeed. The Record is not the worst enemy at all. It carried two days of pages of SNP figures much of last year and has a Mhairi Black page every week now. It has had a number of very supportive editorials on Nicola Sturgeon recently and has put the boot into Richard Leonard several times. It has been a Labour supporting paper most of its life as is it right but I think it knows that half its readership are indy supporters especially in the Glasgow area and its job is to sell newspapers.

    A more interesting development is of Cockers joining the appalling juvenile Scottish Daily Express. I don’t know if this is because the Express thinks that Alan Cochrane is held in some journalistic regard and may rescue the floundering rag or that his previous employers have recognised that he is bonkers.

    In the meantime a few letters to the Record (which is now providing a much more balanced Readers’ Letters section) congratulating it on its new balance may help it along the road.

  52. Dorothy Devine says:

    DaveMcEwanHill, say it ain’t so – Cochrane in the Express! My how the mighty have fallen!

    I’m sure that you are correct in the assumption that the Telegraph has realised he is more a liability than use.

  53. jfngw says:

    The BBC have overdone it, even my wife, whose interest in politics is practically zero, has noticed the continued negativity of BBC Scotland. She has even spotted the ‘me to’ stories that appear once there has been a negative UK story.

    Once you realise you are not being given the facts truthfully then there is no going back.


    Those who want to watch live events, not on the BBC, still need a licence. What I want is the BBC to move to a subscription model, it will sink them I suspect as there are too many who now despise it. Unlikely to happen as they are still a useful government propaganda arm.

    If the BBC were as confident of the high esteem they believe they are held they would move to subscription in an instant. Also remember the top brass is stuffed full of elite who expect the plebs to fund their lifestyles.

  54. Legerwood says:

    Some more context about newspaper circulation figures

    Newspaper Circulation from 1990 (to nearest 1000)

    Press & Jour 105,000
    Herald 124,000
    Scotsman 87,000
    Daily Record 778,000
    Sunday Mail 888,000 ( no connection to Daily Mail or Mail on Sunday)
    Sunday Post 1,249,000
    Scotland on Sunday 67,000

    In 30 years our reading habits have changed and how and where we access information. Add to that the decline in quality of the journalism and the result is a nosedive in circulation.

    Don’t think there is any way back for them.

  55. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Socrates MacSporran (4.38) –

    ‘Scotland has changed, its press has not – hell mend them.’

    They don’t want to change. (Do they know how to?) Even as they see friends and colleagues being fired or taking ‘early retirement’, they carry-on regardless, then get all how-very-fuckin-dare-you when it’s pointed out to them that they’ll be next.

  56. Dr Jim says:

    I f you want to know if the Daily Record’s biased you need to ask David *Grandmaster* Clegg political editor (makes you laugh eh)

    Any body who frequents the Holyrood lobby will see Alan *no mates* Cochrane wandering around looking for folk to talk to, you know the group who breaks up when they see *that guy* coming towards them

    Alan Cochrane is *that guy*

  57. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s not a good thing though in itself, the drops in circulation and eventual end of much of the paper media. People feel comfortable talking to the ever-decreasing numbers of journalists, backed up by their ability to hide the identity and protect it with legal teams and money. Whereas talking to some online blogger is more of a risk, and doesn’t have the same push and impact as the paper media used to have.

    It would be better if the media reformed itself, stopped allying itself to a political party or even a faction within a party, and told it as it is, as impartially as possible, and with balance.

    Personally I get no satisfaction in its decline, leaving as it does, the likes of the BBC to take over and go unchallenged, led by someone appointed directly or indirectly by government of any political colour and with no effective oversight.

  58. Cactus says:

    Digital countdown clock to the next something special, circa:

    Thereaboots 14 days remaining to go…

    Pay attention Alert Wingers.

    Time for a New Record.

    To be set.

    In stone.

  59. Robert Louis says:

    At present just marginally under 50% of Scots want independence. Aside from ‘The National’, not one f*****g supposedly Scottish newspaper reflects that fact. Is it really a surprise that these tawdry pro Britannia rags are going under.

    It is like they are stuck in the 1970’s, and cannot accept reality as it stands in 2018.

  60. Robert Louis says:

    Cactus at 1044pm,

    ‘…and the cryptic comment of the year award goes to…’

  61. TJenny says:

    Cactus – I know and I canny wait to watch all the numbers rise. Hope this year’s even bigger than ever. 🙂

  62. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bradford Millar says:15 February, 2018 at 4:26 pm:

    “Alex Salmond and his consortium instead of trying to buy the Scotsman …. should instead buy the record and give it a massive slant towards the SNP and Indy.”

    Quite frankly, Bradford, as almost no one believes a word they say, no one would believe anything they said, good or bad, about the SNP & Indy.

  63. TJenny says:

    ps – I deffo want a Wings scarf, as it’d be good for displaying all our wee WOS badges.

  64. Andrew says:

    SNP party political broadcast, watched this evening, hilarious and should be broadcast every single day to remind people what the Scottish Government has actually achieved in the last ten years,
    I think it’s called “getting on with the day job” !!

  65. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @TJenny –

    You hardly seem to be around these days but every time I see a comment from you it makes me smile, even before I read it!

    Hope you’re well there.


  66. Cactus says:

    Here’s a VH dedication to yous RL & TJ and Scotland xx:

    Higher and higher.

    With Wings.


  67. Fred says:

    If Alex Salmond & Co buy the Scotsman & change the content will the Edinburgh middle class continue to buy it? It’s a parish journal, no-place stocks it in my neck of the woods & a gutted Record might be more useful.

    Thought the SNP political broadcast tonight pushed all the buttons & zoomer Torrance will be fizzin.

  68. TJenny says:

    Hi Ian, I’m here daily and reading WOS twitter. (I don’r actually tweet though).

    I’m glad I make you smile. 😉

  69. Robert Peffers says:

    @Brian Powell says: 15 February, 2018 at 4:34 pm:

    “Tho I would guess it’s mainly old people who buy papers.”

    If it is, and I’m an octogenarian who stopped reading the Scotsman way back around 1970 and haven’t hardly bought a paper since.

    If what you claim were true, and from what I see the so called newspapers of today publishing on-line, then there must be one hell of a lot of old gits interested in ‘Celebs, crappy pop music, crap football teams, faddy fashion, make-up, silicone tit implants and crap tv programmes.

    Strangely none of the old gits I know have the slightest interest in the above. Mind you some of them do a bit of betting on the Horses and dugs and like doing crossword puzzles A few still even support a football team but do not often attend even their teams home games.

  70. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    An important consideration is that the voting group we need to get some more support out of are those who still read newspapers.

  71. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @TJenny –

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  72. jfngw says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Phew, had to read that twice. First scan I thought it said ‘betting on the horses and drugs’.

    I’ve obviously been conditioned by the BBC to look for the negative!

  73. Iain mhor says:

    Ach they’ve a long ‘record’ of shooting themselves in the foot never mind the head.
    I remember decades ago they ran a constant campaign against motorcyclists. Bikes = bad.
    Circulation tanked so much they turned up at Knockhill race circuit distributing free copies. Every single one went in the bins, usually with some vitriolic comment to accompany the distributors.
    To this day I don’t know any biking mates who would touch it with a barge pole. A single issue alienated 10’s of thousands of readers for a looong time.
    I’m sure any auld bikers looking in will remember this.

  74. Brian says:

    I only ever bought it for Shuggie and Dougie and the crossword..I don’t think I’ve bought it in over 20 years.

  75. McDuff says:

    WH Smith in Stirling has all the English newspapers Mail, Express, Telegragh,Times.Mirror,all at eye level and facing you enabling you to read the headlines. The Scottish papers are at ankle height, upside down bunched up so that all you can read is the titles.
    No other country in the world would stand for this kind of foreign control,yet Scots stoop down to pick up their Herald like serfs with no thought as to what they are doing.
    Proud Scots.

  76. mike cassidy says:

    For those who wanted comparison figures.

    Talk about downhill skiing!

    And those Mirror titles are going downhill considerably faster than the Express and Star titles they just bought.

  77. Chick McGregor says:

    Many years ago now, I made the prediction (jokingly paraphrasing a well known quote) that Scotland would never be free until the last Secretary of State for Scotland was strangled with the last copy of the Daily Record.

    We’re getting there.

  78. Thepnr says:


    “Those who want to watch live events, not on the BBC, still need a licence.”

    This is true of course but if you can watch it legally for free at two O’Clock instead of one O’Clock is it really that important?

    What does the term “live” mean when your not actually there anyway?

  79. Cactus says:

    Let’s go fly a Wings kite, cearc:

    And send it soaring.

    Ditch the itch.


  80. Jim Hacker: Don’t tell me about the Press. I know exactly who reads the papers. The Daily Mirror is read by the people who think they run the country. The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country. The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country. The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country. The Financial Times is read by people who own the country. The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country. The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who think it is.

    Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?

    Bernard Woolley: Sun readers don’t care who runs the country – as long as she’s got big tits.
    30 years on, and nothing has changed, except the readership keeps dying off.
    Now who has big tits and think she Lords it over us all?
    Even with hot desking, there are only so many people the Findo Gask Thunderer can take on.
    Reaping what they sew, hoisted by own petard, comes to mind.
    The Establishment will of course bank roll these loss leaders; propaganda ain’t cheap.

  81. Robert Louis says:

    Wow. Anybody who still doubts the pro Britannia bias and agenda of the BBC need only take a look at their weather forecaster this morning on BBC one.

    Standing outside Blenheim Palace in England, wearing union jack gloves. Now, does anybody here for one minute think that we would ever see a BBC broadcaster wearing Saltire gloves??

    The agenda is clear, every day, in every way, a continuous pushing of the flithy colonial English union jack on every body. Time to push back.

    Unreal. Stop paying the BBC tax, and use the money to support pro Scotland media, like iScot magazine or The National.

  82. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 15 February, 2018 at 11:21 pm:

    “An important consideration is that the voting group we need to get some more support out of are those who still read newspapers.”

    Sheesh! And just what reliable statistical information do you quote as the source for that totally illogical opinion, Dave McEwan Hill?

    There are 100% reliable figures showing that the voting group, “that we need to get some more support out of are”, absolutely and unequivocally those who are unionist voters.

    Any other statistically unreliable claims made as sweeping generalisations are illogical claptrap.

    These sweeping, illogical, claims are being made on Wings on what seems like a daily basis and they vary from claiming virtually all those over a certain, indeterminate age, are almost certainly bound to be unionist voters yet Wings itself is a reasonable example that this claim is claptrap – the many Wingers from a more mature age group who comment daily on Wings and who claim to be pensioners is proof enough that daft theory is illogical.

    There is only one commonality that marks those we need to vote for independence and that commonality is that they are unionist voters.

    I personally know people from every age group who vote unionist but by the same token I know people from every age group who vote for independence. However I know people from every walk in life who also vote for and against independence and the same goes for TV. radio and newspaper readers, viewers and listeners.

    Not only are such sweeping generalisations illogical they are totally futile and counter productive. There is only one overriding factor that creates the perceived situation of unionists being drawn from the older generation.

    It is that while the independence movement has been growing from a tiny movement from when I was still a schoolboy, the unionist support has been waning exponentially and there are only two ways for the independence movement to be have been increasing their support and the unionists losing theirs.

    The first is that those newly becoming voters increasingly find independence the way to go and the other is by converting former unionist party voters to be independence supporters. There is nowhere else to draw converts from and both of these factual trends is the real reason that logically the remaining unionist support is becoming increasingly from a more elderly demographic grouping. In short it is that time and either radio, TV or newspaper use will see that trend continue.

  83. Robert Louis’7.40 am 16 Feb:-
    QT last night was held in the midst of Weapons of War in the Fleet Air Arm’s museum just out side Yeovil.
    They are getting worse. Might is Right, Britannia Rules the Waves, or waives the rules on Brexit.
    The Brit Nats love a bit of pomp and menace, and sabre rattling of course.
    BBC Breakfast is a non stop English/British Brit Nat magazine now.
    Brexit rocks, according to the Bastion of the Great British Establishment.
    The English citizens on these isles are being brow beaten into leaving the EU, on the back of by jingo speeches from Boris.

  84. Macart says:

    @Jack Collatin

    QT is a kipper’s wet dream Jack. It’s long since lost any semblance of serious political debate or Q and A. It’s an entertainment piece for little empire British nationalists, xenophobes and the hard of thinking or empathy. It’s used by the BBC as a propaganda entertainment. It’s used by the bulk of the panelists to lift their profiles. It’s used by its audience as a broadcast replacement for the village stocks.

    Basically, it’s not worth a half hour of any reasoning human being’s time.

  85. Nana says:

    Sir David Warren says it is time for plain speaking on the impact of Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union

    Resist a US trade deal. Your life may depend on it

  86. Nana says:

    Alarming conversation

    The closed group called “The Ultras” also argues for privatising healthcare and the return of workhouses for debtors. Dominic Raab says he wasn’t aware he was part of it.

  87. Muscleguy says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Crossword books are available for not much money. The Times ones are very good, without the rest of the paper.

    And of course there’s an App for that too. I do a crossword on my phone.

    Buy a paper to do a crossword? That sir is a category error.

  88. Macart says:

    Ta Nana. 🙂

    Quite a choice again and Brexit figuring highly. Time to break out the big cup.

  89. Nana says:

    Good morning Macart, best make that a bucket 🙂

  90. Dr Jim says:

    Anas Sarwar’s still insisting people don’t like him because of his colour

    Nothing to do with him being an Arse

  91. Macart says:

    @Dr Jim

    Mainly an arse, but also because he has more faces than a gaming geek’s dice and more neck than a giraffe.

    When folk think of the career minded serial fibber type of politico? He’d be right up there in broken lights.

  92. I would like to see the sales of the daily stranger continue to fall even faster along with Murdoch’s rags.

  93. Famous15 says:

    Mention Braveheart and the yoons go frothing at the mouth crazy.

    Mild mannered civic Scottish Nationalist get very nervous.

    Me? I thought the movie was a hilarious romance interspersed with piss taking of ourselves and our Southern cousins BUT in the historically innaccurate midst of it was the historical reminder that Scotland is a
    Free independent nation later Entering a TREATY of Union with conditions.

    The fury of the Unionists is because we refuse to be shoehorned into the pillory they have prepared. Laugh at them and mix as many metaphors if it shows them for the sad self loathing clowns they are.

  94. Dorothy Devine says:

    My favourite Mr Sarwar moment is the debate with our Nicola and his TOP SECRET folder .


    And Wally to STV too for never querying the first Wally.

  95. manandboy says:

    While elsewhere in Brexitworld, Arlene Foster-a puppet on a string.

    Just ask the 10 DUP MP’s.

    Or just as good, have a listen to RTE’s NI correspondent,Tommie Norman. (2 mins long)

    As the Tory BrexitMess gets bigger, so also does the need for the door marked ‘Independence’.

    Only, ever and always vote SNP until Scotland is Independent and free of the monumental injustice which is the colonisation and exploitation of Scotland by Westminster and the English Establishment.

  96. galamcennalath says:

    Nana says

    Some very dodgy money was used to buy Brexit!

    What worries me is that the type of money will be used against us in IndyRef2 and any reunification referendum in Ireland. We need to be on the look out for this and call it out at the time, rather than piece it all together afterwards.

    If it is identified, then we should milk it for all it’s worth!

    Similarly, we need to be on the look out for those professional political manipulators who were paid to change opinions on social media. Identify and call them out.

  97. manandboy says:

    His real name is Tommie Gorman. (Predictive text fail)

  98. auld highlander says:

    There’something odd going on as I can’t access the archive links.

  99. Nana says:

    @auld highlander

    I have just checked my archived links and they are working fine for me.

    One more link for today

    UK aims to keep financial rules close to EU after Brexit

  100. call me dave says:

    Look at me Sarwar on shortbread there treading water.
    What’s he like eh?


    Men in Stu’s garden maybe fixing his WIFI…..Yeah! 🙂

  101. Highland Wifie says:

    @auld highlander and Nana
    Archive links not working for me either. Could it be iPad issue?

  102. Clootie says:

    …may their end come ever more quickly!
    They betrayed Scotland and should NEVER be forgiven.

    They represent the old North British mentality which has held back our progress.

  103. Does the Daily Record still have Angus Og,

    I remember when I was an apprentice down Leith in the 80`s (real apprentice not one of these low/slave wage modern con jobs )I had to go and get the rolls and the morning papers, red tops mostly with the Scotsman for the Boss,

    it was a quick glance at the headline then check out page three then read about the fitba from the back page in,

    everyone read the papers, in the howf with a swap over at dinner break and then you had your afternoon break where I got everyone`s Evening News,

    was at a retraining thing about 5 years ago which had a big dinning hall maybe 200 folk and not one newspaper everyone on their smart phones even the teachers,

    like the Brutish Empire the printed newspaper is barely alive and only kept going by the institutionalized who dinny like change.

  104. Fred says:

    @ Nana, sad news aboot Fred the missing eagle, contrast that with the treatment of an urban Eagle-Owl in Finland, it stopped a Finland v Belgium football match. On YouTube!

  105. Nana says:

    @Highland Wifie I have just tried to archive a Guardian article and it won’t load so it looks like a problem with archive website.
    Try again later.

    Could be Freddie the eagle 🙂

  106. Nana says:

    While Rev is having the wifi fixers in, I thought you might like to listen in to a new service from

    This is the first episode of the Open Book Podcast, a new series of talks and discussions from National Records of Scotland dedicated to preserving Scotland’s past, recording the present and informing our future.

    We kick off with a talk given by Gerard Carruthers, Francis Hutcheson Professor of Scottish Literature at the University of Glasgow, on Scotland’s most famous poet and lyricist – Robert Burns.

  107. Proud Cybernat says:

    The most worrying thing from The Record’s perspective is that curve – zero sign of it flattening out any time soon.

    Hell slap it into them. They made their bed with their 2014 VOW treachery.

  108. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Actually Sarwar looked sensible, articulate and very coherent on Colin McKay last night. Probably because he wasn’t talking the political pish we got used to hearing from him. He looked a lot better than Richard Leonard actually

  109. Bob Mack says:

    Our very own DUP. Daily Unionist Propoganda.

    Good riddance

  110. Liz Rannoch says:

    O/T though still about publications.

    Prepare to ‘spit feathers’

  111. doineann says:

    I would rather clean my arse with glass.

  112. Highland Wifie says:

    Thanks for that. Will do.

  113. Highland Wifie says:

    Working now. Thank you.

  114. Baldeagle58 says:

    This is O/T folks!

    Just want to pass on my congratulations to the SNPs Niall Coleman on winning the Bonnybridge and Larbert By-Election which was called following the death of his late father Provost Tom Coleman.

    The Tories were in 2nd. place with Labour 3rd.
    Turnout was only 26.5%, but then again it was a By-Election and yesterday’s weather wasn’t nice at all.
    So well done to those who braved the weather and came out to vote!

  115. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Only, ever and always vote SNP until Scotland is Independent and free of the monumental injustice which is the colonisation and exploitation of Scotland by Westminster and the English Establishment.”

    I’ll drink to that, manandboy. It’s got a simple clarity, hasn’t it?

    On an powerful example of which: can any kind soul provide a link to a talk given about four years ago by Stuart McHardy to a Leith or Edinburgh Yes group? I think it was originally published on the its Twitter or Facebook page.

    His talk lasted about an hour, and covered a wide range of topics, including Capella’s now-famous Heydrich quotation and The Cantonment Records of the British Army post-1746.

    IIRC, he claimed this incendiary document had been completely supressed in the UK, and the only copy he could find had been tracked down in a Canadian university library. It shows a prolonged, intimidating military occupation in the Lowlands after Culloden to stifle Jacobite sympathies and snuil the populace by billeting and the usual attendant “rough soldiery” behaviour.

    Of course, Britnat zoomers would tell us it was all for our own good.

    Better together, after all.

  116. harry mcaye says:

    That’s twice now I have posted on a sensitive subject and my post hasn’t appeared.

  117. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 16 February, 2018 at 12:45 am:

    ” … if you can watch it legally for free at two O’Clock instead of one O’Clock is it really that important?
    What does the term “live” mean when your not actually there anyway?”

    It actually means a lot more than you think, Thepnr, for very few things are actually broadcast as they happen. Here’s a wee question for you to consider. How does the studio production team manage to predict when someone in front of the cameras or microphones is going to use an objectionable term and beep it out as it happens?

    The truth is they do not predict it – they have a digitally set delay on the studio signal and that allows them to hear the objectionable term and a press of a button beeps out the objectionable term.

    No one has fast enough reactions to do the job and the only way to do so is a delay between the live signal and the signal that goes out of the transmitters.

    We used to do it with an endless belt loop on a magnetic tape machine. The longer the tape loop the longer the delay but now it is done electronically. That is also how they can edit out things that indy people say. Why else did you think that BBC Scotland almost always has the unionist members of a news item in the studio and the SNP person in a booth and shown on a monitor in the studio?

    Notice too the longer delay when the SNP person is, for example, in Dundee and the news studio is in Glasgow but on the same new programme the will cover World news and perhaps have the POTUS on screen but the link to the USA is almost instantaneous but the link to Dundee is very much longer delayed.

    So how does a TV signal from the USA get from Washington to London quicker than a TV signal get from Dundee to Glasgow?

    Now there is an enigma, right enough.

  118. call me dave says:

    A ‘Scottish’ MP bringing a bill to parliament to ban ‘internship’ working for no money schemes. This is good…but

    Fourth time today I’ve heard of this Scottish MP who’s party remains a mystery but shortbread is a bit lacking on detail!

    Good old auntie with a kilt

    Stu may have a ‘stable’ WIFI soon. 🙂

  119. galamcennalath says:

    harry mcaye says:

    That’s twice now I have posted on a sensitive subject and my post hasn’t appeared.

    WoS has filters for ‘sensitive words’. Sometimes it can be words within words. Read your text carefully and change anything which might be contentious. I think most of us get caught out sometimes.

  120. jfngw says:

    Apparently the Herald’s ‘top’ journalist is in a tizz that an ex MSP is receiving the pay off that all ex ministers receive. What’s not clear is if he wants all resigning ministers not to receive this pay out or only SNP ones. I’m sure he could list all the ministers that have resigned and received a payment but only focuses SNP ones.

    The current person they are focusing on has not been convicted of any crime so far so I what criteria does he suggest they use to determine who doesn’t receive the payment. The only one so far I can see is that they were at some time a SNP member.

    The headline is also a joke ‘outcry’, only in his mind I suspect as probably 99.9% of the population were unaware of this payment. It seems to have been a Tory, who conveniently forgets his own parties recent sordid ministerial pay off.

  121. Baldeagle58 says:

    Trying to post this O/T Comment for the second time!

    Congratulations to the SNPs Niall Coleman on winning the Bonnybridge and Larbert Ward By-Election for Falkirk Council.
    It was called following the death of his father Provost Tom Coleman.

    Worryingly, the Tories came in 2nd with over 1,000 votes in what was a low turnout (about 24%) event.
    Labour were 3rd with 800+ votes.

    The weather yesterday was terrible, so well done to everyone who struggled out to vote.

  122. harry mcaye says:

    The David Fagan case.

    I’m struggling with so apologies I cannot find this story when I use that site but it’s easily found if you google “Labour councillor undercover cop”. The Daily Record link, if someone could archive it that would be great, is staggering. Not one mention of the political party that Fagan belongs to. The undercover cop says she feels he was going to go through with it and that he is a danger to children. Can you imagine the outcry if this was an SNP official?

    He got a mention last night on Reporting Scotland, after a story about an SNP councillor allegedly punching someone at their conference. Bizarrely, Fagan appears on an Alasdair Gray mural at a subway station I think it was and there have been calls for it to be painted over as Fagan faces charges for “sex offences”. Intending to travel to London, pay £100 and rape a 14 year old while her mother abuses another child, yes, I suppose “sex offences” covers that, doesn’t it? As for STV, I’m not sure they have ever mentioned the case at all. Does anybody have any input? It has been mentioned in several papers but there seems to be a concerted attempt to minimise the seriousness of the story from the broadcast media.

  123. galamcennalath says:

    call me dave says:

    bill to parliament to ban ‘internship’ working for no money schemes

    Internships are an utter disgrace. On the face of it, no civilised society would allow it.

    I don’t think you can class the practice alongside zero hours contracts type situations. Internships appear to be taken up by young people whose parents are rich enough to support them. Call me cynical, but I think it’s a technique to get ‘the right type of people’ into the ‘right type of organisation’. Many will be then chosen for permanent positions. The system sticks.

    Any organisation using internships needs to be viewed with suspicion.

  124. geeo says:

    Tom Gordon (Herald) has an attempted smear piece on SNP over Mark McDonald’s investigation “taking too long”.

    Usual format…”SNP Minister” in the headline, but down the article he becomes…”ostensibly an independent MSP”.

    Here is my comment btl. Surprised it is still there.

    “Ex SNP minister, should be the headline here.

    Even the article says he is “ostensibly an independent MSP” 

    But that would not smear the SNP as much huh ?

    Tom Gordon is just another example of a “churnalist” who churns out SNP BAD garbage at every opportunity. 

    Rent a quote Scottish tories and labour people are never far away in these articles, but there is never any balance nor caveats about other parties and incidents of a similair nature (or worse) such as tory perv Damien Green or how about the Monica Lennon allegation of sexual assault by a SENIOR Scottish labour figure, watched by 6 labour members, an incident the labour leadership stated they would not be investigating unless Lennon made a formal complaint.

    As far as the media has reported, no complaint has been made and nobody is being investigated. 

    An actual JOURNALIST would dig for this story, but churnalists like Tom Gordon need an SNP BAD angle before they pursue such stories, or frankly, any story. 

    Acoording to Monica Lennon, there are 7 labour party members or officials, including a SENIOR figure who is a sex attacker, covering up a sex attack. 

    If that allegation is not true, then a female MSP is lying about a sex assault, that is surely also a story worth investigating and reporting ?

    But hey…there is no SNP BAD angle in such a story huh”?

  125. Macart says:


    Writing was on the wall. No title can experience the losses it has and not expect something to give.

  126. galamcennalath says:


    Their Act of Independence was signed 100 years ago. It was hand written on one sheet of paper! Isn’t that cool!?

    A different era, though. Scotland’s Declaration of Independence will be typed and probably run to two sheets 🙂

  127. wull2 says:

    The problem WM has most people remember the VOW in 2014 and will vote YES this time.
    After we are independent you can vote for whoever you like, until then vote SNP.

  128. Macart says:


    Interesting CV. Lessee what happens next.

    Wonder where they’re cutting the other twelve bods from?

  129. schrodingers cat says:

    interesting post on sgoesp by
    Taranaich February 15, 2018 at 10:09 PM

    My thinking is that the Deputy Leadership election is a proxy “now or later” question to the SNP membership, since both Mr Wishart and Mr Dornan have put the timing of an independence referendum foremost in their leadership campaigns. James Dornan urges a referendum in this parliament: Pete Wishart tentatively recommends waiting until the next parliament. Since another referendum is, obviously, absolutely central to all SNP members (whether it’s now or in the future), a vote for Wishart or Dornan is effectively a call from the membership to either fire or holster the starting gun.

    Like you, James, I’m of the belief it is imperative we use the mandate we have even at the risk of losing a referendum – because if we don’t use the mandate we won now, why would anyone vote for the SNP the next time around?

    It must never, ever be forgotten that the 2016 SNP mandate for a second referendum in the event of the UK tearing Scotland out of the EU is a *greater* mandate than the 2011 SNP mandate for the first referendum, in terms of vote share and vote number – in fact, it’s the greatest mandate for a single party since the Scottish Parliament was reconvened. Refusing to use that mandate would be a betrayal of voters’ trust, and ensure that they would lose a 2021 Holyrood election.

    Either we try and fail, or we don’t try and never get the chance again.

  130. Grant says:

    @Robert Louis:
    15 February, 2018 at 10:49 pm
    At present just marginally under 50% of Scots want independence.

    I’m sure the polls (and 2014) have it at over 50% of Scots in favour. The RoUK residents swing it the other way?

    I bought the Daily Record regularly, but co-incidentally made my own Vow in September 2014.

  131. Scott says:

    Can someone help with this.
    Outcry as SNP sex-row minister receives ‘golden goodbye’

    Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale, who sits on the SPCB, will ask her fellow members to examine what reforms can be introduced to prevent similar payments in future.

    I would like to know if Dugdale received money when she left and what about the tories like Fallon what did he get.
    This is all because its an SNP member.
    Answer is if anyone resigns no payments should be made.

  132. cirsium says:

    @schrodinger’s cat, 1.42pm

    Strongly agree. As Peter Bell says in his great post “Breakout” (see Nana’s links)

    We don’t campaign because the polls have moved in our favour. We campaign in order to move them. We don’t campaign because public attitudes have changed. We campaign in order to change them. We don’t wait for the conditions to be right. We make them right.

  133. Gordon says:

    ..aaand that’s yer Foote away

  134. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    cirsium at 2.25

    Peter Bell is exactly right

  135. schrodingers cat says:

    before everyone piles in, i would remind btl commentors that

    1. everyone here supports an independent scotland (excluding trolls obviously)

    2. in this situation, there is no right or wrong answer, only opinion

    3. going forward, brexit will damage the uk economy, weaken the unionists argument and increase the chances of a yes victory in indyref2.

    4. some may argue if we lose indyref2 we can always have and indyref3. There is an element of truth in this but my gut feeling tells me this route to indy is fraught with problems, laws can be changed, peoples opinions can change etc. to that end, I believe that winning indyref2 is our best chance of winning scottish independence so whether we can hold indyref3 or not, wont influence by opinion of the best time to hold indyref2

    I believe point 3 is inarguably the most important point and trumps all others regarding the timing of indyref2.

    This still doesnt help me decide whether sept 18, spring 19, after we leave the EU, before or after the next Holyrood election, is the best time for indyref2.

    brexit has begun to bite, no question but there has been little or no movement to yes in the polls, until there is, indyref2 stays on the back burner. if that means waiting until after the next holyrood election, so be it. To that end, I support Pete Wishart

    I like James dornan, jumping the gun and announcing indyref2 now, regardless of what is happening elsewhere, I dont support

  136. galamcennalath says:

    @schrodingers cat

    I consider the SNP’s commitment to a referendum if circumstances change to be the most important promise in their manifesto. It is a huge issue compared to anything else. It even spelt out, ‘such as Scotland being dragged out of the EU’.

    Failure to act would be a serious betrayal of voters.

    And, as has been widely pointed out, why would voters give them a second chance in 2021 with a second mandate on the same issue?

    I may have got this wrong, but it would surprise me if Pete Wishart, of whom I have always though highly, is actually playing some sort of stalking horse here to get activists worked up. Getting grassroots Yessers vocal adds to the momentum to act.

    I still believe the SNP/SG plan is to act as soon as appropriate but within this session.

  137. Fireproofjim says:

    Schrödinger’s cat @1.42
    Agree 100%.
    We have the mandate for Inderef2. The next parliament may not have a majority for it.
    (Events, dear boy, events). We must use it and must think strategically by developing a strong, consistent and fully researched body of policies which will appeal to wavering voters. Brexit will be a disaster but what matters to most people, as we learned in 2014, are wages, pensions, currency and the NHS.
    We must avoid vague discussions about £15 billion deficits, which cannot be compared with the outcome of an independent economy. We must avoid nonsensical arguments over monarchy or republics, or socialism or capitalism which only split our vote. Those are arguments for an independent Scotland. Ideally we get promises from the EU that Scotland willl be welcome should we wish to join. Ireland will help us there.
    Tactically we need to get our arguments researched and rehearsed now. I favour a vote in the late Summer of 2019 which will give us the late nights and better weather for campaigning and rallies.
    (Canvassing through the dark winter nights is not easy.)
    We need a shorter campaign with less but much better literature. No leaflets,which are easily. discarded, but, instead, readable and keepable booklets, like Wings’ “Wee Blue Book”, which was head and shoulders above the Official YES literature.
    Finally we need a charismatic campaign leader. Blair Jenkins did well in 2014 but was more an office manager, not inspiring and not a fighter like Tommy Shepherd, or Jean Freeman for example.
    It won’t be easy but keep it simple and broad church and we will win.

  138. Proud Cybernat says:

    Disagree SC.

    Alex Salmond had indy sitting at around 30% (or less) when he called IndyRef1. There will NEVER be a good time to call an IndyRef. But it’s about having the courage of your convictions and presenting your arguments to win people to your side. Alex had those qualities in spades. If you can win the argument you can win the vote. The last thing the Indy movement needs are ditherers.

    The ongoing BREXIT catastrophukc must be seen as the single best opportunity to make a compelling case for dumping the Union. We must seize it and use it to our advantage. Polls HAVE moved, albeit slowly in YES favour since 2014. And that is WITHOUT ANY serious campaigning whatsoever. If we can be so close in such circumstances, winning IR2 will be a Nigel Trantor.

    Now is the time to be BOLD. So what if we lose – we dust ourselves down, regroup and seek another IndyRef mandate from the people of Scotland. If we win another IndyRef mandate then we have IndyRef3. And we keep having them until we finally win. No other political party puts its main political objectives ‘on hold’ so the SNP shouldn’t either. EVERY GE/SE should seek an IndyRef mandate or straight indy if a straight majority is secured in those elections.

    No more mr nice guy. No more pussy-footing around. It’s time to go for the jugular. If we don’t, THEY WILL.

  139. Referendum1707 says:

    “This still doesnt help me decide whether sept 18, spring 19, after we leave the EU, before or after the next Holyrood election, is the best time for indyref2”.

    Do you actually seriously believe that “after we leave the eu” it will be even legally possible to hold another indyref?

    “brexit has begun to bite, no question but there has been little or no movement to yes in the polls, until there is, indyref2 stays on the back burner. if that means waiting until after the next holyrood election, so be it. To that end, I support Pete Wishart”

    I strongly suggest you read Peter A. Bell’s article linked to above by Nana.

  140. Snode1965 says:

    Oops…looks like Murray Foote has received his jotters!

  141. One_Scot says:

    Lol, clearly Murray read this post and realised the writing was on the wall. Don’t let the door smack you in the napper, etc, etc.. 🙂

  142. PictAtRandom says:

    “We don’t campaign because the polls have moved in our favour. We campaign in order to move them. We don’t campaign because public attitudes have changed. We campaign in order to change them. We don’t wait for the conditions to be right. We make them right.”

    Well, that’s campaigning. Different from pulling the trigger on IndyRef2.
    I sense a bit of fever for a 2018/19 ref, affecting even the normally sensible James Kelly on ScotGoesPop. But could those in favour explain their timetable in detail and how Westminster will facilitate it?
    I’m not absolutely saying no to Spring 2019, and we have a few months to argue about it, but…

  143. JTM says:

    I read the posts regarding polls referencing indyref and

    perceived movement towards YES and it would seem , to me

    at least , that this steady increase towards independence

    reflects a conversion by more and more people ,made ,in the

    cold light of day after consideration of fact.

    These are the people who will not change back now the scales

    of deceit have been removed from their eyes and minds.

  144. frogesque says:

    @call me Dave: 3.43

    Should be worth a Knighthood minimum, maybe a seat in the House of Dead Vermin beside the other rats

  145. yesindyref2 says:

    Peter Bell is indeed exactly right. Just his date, Sep this year will probably be too early, though it should be the right time to announce the actual date (before end March 2019).

  146. yesindyref2 says:

    I wondered that too about Pete Wishart, same as when he said similar before – get us worked up and vocal. But if he is, then we’re best reacting naturally anyway 🙂

    Naughty Pete.

  147. TJenny says:

    Murray Foote apparently departs from the Record on 2 March and ad for Slab comms director apparently has closing date of 9 March. Wee holiday break and then?
    (wee chin stroking fizog thingy).

  148. Fred says:

    @ Nana, whoooohooo, the very Eagle-Owl. There was one scaring Scotch Terriers in Inverness a few years ago! Thanks for that!

    The Duke of Buccleuch is selling hill-farms to the tenants which is a bit of a turn-up for the books!

  149. Jack Murphy says:

    Re the Daily Record sales.

    As my Mum says in any situation like this,”They’ve only got themselves to blame”.

    I have nothing to add.

  150. Hamish100 says:

    Must have independence referendum before rUk leaves EU. Simple really. Start preparations.

  151. yesindyref2 says:

    Sturgeon tweeted this about Foote:

    “All the best @murrayf00te. The occasional front page aside (?), I always enjoyed our interactions and wish you well – your departure is a big loss for @Daily_Record.
    (PS I hope my column being nearly a year late had no bearing on your decision!).”

    She’s very good, instinctive.

  152. silverbuick says:

    My earliest memory of the Daily Record is being asked to cut it into squares . Then I had to take them to the shared W.C. on the landing and push them onto the dod o’wid with the nail sticking up for T.P. Rough times right enough.

  153. schrodingers cat says:

    cirsium says:
    16 February, 2018 at 2:25 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat, 1.42pm

    Strongly agree. As Peter Bell says in his great post “Breakout” (see Nana’s links)

    We don’t campaign because the polls have moved in our favour. We campaign in order to move them. We don’t campaign because public attitudes have changed. We campaign in order to change them. We don’t wait for the conditions to be right. We make them right.


    I disagree, in 2011 the snp got 45% of the vote, in 2014, 45% yes.
    based on opinion polls of
    30% yes
    30% no
    30% DK

    the unionist media spun the line that support for indy was only 30%. Alex Salmond has recently taken to throwing this figure back in the unionist media’s faces. 🙂

    but the facts remain, we have been sitting on about 45-47% for 5 years with no polls showing 50+ support for Yes.

    if brexit had not happened, we would probably be sitting here with the same support, about 46%, waiting for a reason in the future to launch indyref2, probably a change in demographic, ie, the younger voters replacing older etc, but we wouldnt have a mandate for indyref2, I doubt we would even have indyref2 in our manifesto for 2021 HE

    but we do have brexit, that is what has given us this opportunity to not only to hold indyref2 but also to win it.

    timing is everything.

    It should be pointed out that the mps at WM have not given up on stopping brexit, either by euref2 or reversing A50, until we see and know how this is all going to pan out, how can we launch indyref2?

  154. wull2 says:

    Did anyone like me, make a kite with newspapers, that is the only way they will fly now.
    Anyone got any other suggestions if you happen to find one, other than the usual, in the WC.

  155. yesindyref2 says:

    @cat “if brexit had not happened, we would probably be sitting here with the same support, about 46%, waiting for a reason in the future to launch indyref2

    Exactly. And in 2021, 2026, 2031, 2036, it would be the same without an actual date and campaign.

    Politics of any sort is very low on the priority of 95% of the population, until it’s made a priority like the election / referendum is next month. A lot of politicians live in a bubble of other politicians, and the same is true of us activists. Even while talking to other “normal” people (i.e. non-activists), they’d probably prefer to talk about something else.

    Survey question: Do you prefer tea or coffee?
    Answer: yes

  156. Ghillie says:

    Aye indeed, the Daily Record brought this demise on themselves.

    And as the DR falls away…

    The REAL Scottish media rises =)

    Wings =) Oh Yes!!

    And remember folks to tune into our Truly Scottish TV, growing daily!

    Thank you too to Phantom Power Films and Independence Live and all our amazing bloggers, you know who are 🙂

  157. wull2 says:

    Is there something the matter with the Rev’s twitter, I have not had a update from anyone for 5 Hours on it.

  158. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 16 February, 2018 at 2:56 pm:

    “It is a huge issue compared to anything else. It even spelt out, ‘such as Scotland being dragged out of the EU’.”

    I’m not going to even attempt to second guess the SNP/SG as to what they have, or have not, got in mind but let’s scotch the one big myth that is being oft reputed and not just on Wings.

    This constant claim that, “This is out only chance of gaining Scottish Independence”. I’ve been listening to this, and many other similar claims, since I was a wee 11 year old schoolboy who was inspired by some great patriotic Scottish independence figures. Alas mostly all gone now.

    Yet in spite of this constant harping that we won’t ever get another chance, here we are in 2018 on the verge of independence. In truth there have been such claims being made since ever there was a Scotland and to prove that point allow me to quote a little bit of text you may well recognise.

    “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. “

    So even before the, “Declaration of Arbroath”, was penned there must have been a faction claiming, “If we don’t win it this time we will never get another chance.”

    Otherwise why would the declaration include a warning that the cause of Scottish independence would be fought for as long as there were at least 100 supporters of Independence?

  159. Terence callachan says:

    Just remember this.
    18% of the people who live in Scotland are English people
    Nearly all are here temporarily to work
    Nearly all vote NO for Scottish independence
    18% nearly a fifth , that’s a lot in voting terms
    That 18% account for about 36% of the British nationalist votes, that’s a lot in voting terms
    No other country in the world would let people who come from the country it is trying to regain its independence from, have a vote on the matter, especially when the country you are trying to regain independence from is ten times the size in population.
    Scotland has been colonised, our government is controlled by England
    Our hospitals universities colleges schools councils and other such bodies are full of English people and more than a fair proportion of them are in top positions of power
    People say you can’t stop English people voting on Scottish independence if they live here, I say yes we can, they are English and will always vote for England to control Scotland it gives them a personal feeling of power and superiority.
    People say that if you stop English people voting against Scottish independence you would have to allow Scottish people who do not live in Scotland a vote on Scottish independence but I say no you would not, if Scottish people have decided to live somewhere else that is their choice and they give up the right to vote on Scottish independence ,my sister married a Canadian and lives in Canada she doesn’t expect a vote on Scottish independence .
    One more point , if there were Scottish citizenship avaialble you would not find the English people who live in Scotland taking Scottish citizenship and giving up their English citizenship,they are English and alaways will be ,great, I like it, but let’s not allow this Britishness nonsense to muddy the waters ,English people living in Scotland will always vote against Scottish independence.
    English votes for yes is a trick ,set up by an Englishman to help him get votes to become a councillor in Scotland .

  160. call me dave says:


    BT are in his hoose and garden with burly men in high viz jaickets and big long kango hammer drills fixing his WIFI or so it is rumoured. 🙂

  161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 14:52:

    brexit has begun to bite, no question but there has been little or no movement to yes in the polls, until there is, indyref2 stays on the back burner. if that means waiting until after the next holyrood election, so be it. To that end, I support Pete Wishart

    And that is where I fundamentally disagree. It is a self-defeating prophecy, in actual fact. A total failure to understand the lessons from history on how to succeed despite all the inevitable difficulties.

    Waiting for someone or something else to make something happen when you have to go and make it happen by yourself.

    That is Peter Bell’s fundamental message, not more “wait and see”.

    What a refreshing change. Leading from the front, not from the rear and facing backwards.

    Not helped by those who then chime in about how tewwibly, tewwibly difficult and complicated it all will be, the implication being to wait until we have read the rulebook (written by our opponents) from cover to cover before we dare even lift a finger.

    Well, count me out of that losers’ charter.

  162. galamcennalath says:

    I see Angela Merkel says she’s “curious” to here what TMay wants from Brexit.

    Jeez, she and millions of others!

    I tend to believe that their Union and the continuity of the UK is of prime importance to all BritNats, while Brexit takes second place. TMay knows that as soon as she announces a hardish Brexit then the grumbling from Scotland will become a roar. She must also know, more than most, Indy minded Scots are desperate to hear her Brexit plans.

    So no worked TMay’s avoiding making an announcement!

  163. Liz Rannoch says:

    Right, 3rd time lucky.

    On 14/2 @ 7.41pm and again on 15/2 @ 8.00am I asked whether anybody knew when the repeal bill would be brought in. I think this is most important part of the timing of indy2.

    Does it come in on 3/3/19 whether the uk gets an extension or not? Does it come in at the end of the extension 31/12/18 according to EU? Does it come in if/when the uk crashes out whatever date that might be?

    I believe that if we don’t have indy2 before that bloody bill is law then we’re skewered. I think the tories will have something up their sleeves that will make it impossible for us to go for indy2 after then. A la Spain maybe?

  164. wull2 says:

    Are they installing a direct line to listen, because they cant even stand the connection disruption.

  165. Ottomanboi says:

    The British if seated around the dinner table will discuss anything other than serious topics. Politics, religion, philosophy, existential matters are generally taboo, not so sex, prurience and collective ‘idiocy’.
    Compared to continental Europeans (and Middle Easterners) the Brits are superficial.
    The British state expects its subjects to be ‘thick’. How well has it suceeded!
    Scotland, essentially so much more European than England, can do much better.

  166. cearc says:

    Liz R,

    Does anybody (ie.W Gov) know?

    Daily Record, the paper of murrderrr ‘n’ fitba. See, it’s all the SNP’s fault. The crime rate has been plummeting under their governance, ruined the format.

  167. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 15:57,

    You could be right. Sep.2018 is probably a tad too optimistic now, though you never know.

    The deal to be approved by the EU27 will (have to) be known by then. If there even is one.

    And it is often surprisingly pleasant and sunny in early November. (Except around Aberdeen, oddly, where there has often been a brief first snowfall then.)

  168. schrodingers cat says:

    Referendum1707 says:

    Do you actually seriously believe that “after we leave the eu” it will be even legally possible to hold another indyref?


    the uk leaves on 29 March 2019, I’m not sure we will know whether westminster will reverse brexit, announce euref2 before then.

    our window to call indyref2 is narrowing, plus it will be a winter campaign. if it is in the spring it will most likely be after we have left,

    we may face problems getting WM to agree to indyref2, i think you are right, but if we hold it against their wishes, getting the biggest turn out for yes as possible is still the best way for us to win the argument

  169. gus1940 says:


    Re this week’s reports on the cost of repairs to Bute House has any progress been made on the proposals of a few years ago that the old Calton Jail Governor’s House was to be refurbished as an Official Residence for The First Minister.

    While I’m at it why not scrap FM and use the proper title of Prime Minister together with Speaker instead of Presiding Officer. I’m sure that the Australian States and Canadian Provinces don’t use the stupid titles imposed on Scotland by our colonial masters.

  170. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz Rannoch @ 17:15,

    Well, come 29.March.2019, we will lose the hundreds of thousands of EU voters, that’s a cert for starters. Maybe acquire a bunch of Scots ex-pats immigrants in the EU27 and even Scots immigrants in England in return.

    That’s how they fix this game. If we are foolish enough to wait and let them.

  171. schrodingers cat says:

    tewwibly, tewwibly difficult and complicated……….

    who do you think you are talking to?

    we are very close to indy now, and it is right and proper that we should discuss these issues.

    if you are unable to do so without being a condesending twat, its probably better if you dont read my posts or reply to them.

  172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Well, you can’t fault the Wishartites for consistency, at least.

    It’s all going to be much too difficult to assert ourselves out of our unassailable torpor and will just have to be after March.2019 whatever because.

  173. Terence callachan says:

    I find it odd that so many people commenting here always fail to see the obvious which is that 18% of people living in Scotland are English that’s about 36% of the British nationalist vote, nearly two fifths of the people who vote against Scottish independence are English people, the other three fifths I think are made up of one fifth being the rich and landed and two fifths being mostly aged labour voters and dyed in the wool Tories.
    The two fifths of the British nationalist vote that is made up of aged labour voters and dyed in the wool Tories I think are split three to one in favour of the aged labour voters which means that the aged labour voters account for about three tenths of the British nationalist vote .
    That three tenths of the British nationalist vote that is aged labour voters equates to about 15% of the overall numbers who will vote on Scottish independence .
    In my opinion this 15% aged labour voters are the only group of people living in Scotland who do not yet support Scottish independence that are ever likely to change to YES.
    There is no chance that
    The English people living in Scotland
    Or the rich and landed living in Scotland
    Or the dyed in the wool Tories living in Scotland
    will ever change to YES
    They have too much that they already gain and is guaranteed .
    SO-the target group, the only group that are ever likely to change from NO to YES is the aged labour voters and they only make up 15% of the total voters in Scotland .
    This is the reason there is slow increases in the number of YES voters.
    As the aged labour voters die and young sixteen year olds become voters we must ensure that those young sixteen year olds vote YES.
    The alternative is to stop English people having a vote on Scottish independence.
    Why should English people determine Scotlands future, living here is not reason enough, I do not expect to vote on independence of countries around the world that I live in from time to time,it would be preposterous for me to do so and wholly undemocratic.

    A fifth of the British nationalist vote equates to about twenty percent of
    We will never change the rich and landed who gain from the bribery Englands control of Scotland gives them and we will never change the dyed in the wool Tories .
    That narrows down the field and gives us a mere

  174. CmonIndy says:

    Call me paranoid, I hope and expect that Rev has already engaged security bod to scan for wee nasty electronic bugs. BRITISH Telecom indeed.

  175. Dan Huil says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland 5:33pm

    Good point about EU voters.

  176. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ ottomanboi

    That’s because the glish know they are fools, whereas the kikes and carpet pilots haven’t quite reached that epiphany.

    2021, eh? Could’ve never seen that coming.

  177. yesindyref2 says:

    English votes for yes is a trick

    I’ve met them at Glasgow Green, you’re talking shite.

  178. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 17:37,

    I wasn’t referring to you specifically in that particular comment, but to later posters. But once again you duck and dive and refuse to engage by absurdly personalising the issue. It’s not about you, you self-centred wimp.

    You do seem to recognise yourself though. In a later posting, to which I have just responded but not to you by name, you exactly prove my point. We are on the cusp of something great yet people like you just can’t help but continually accentuate the negative. Your watchword is predictably always “delay”.

    And by your own self-recognition the jibe does rather strike home.

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    Jeez, they’re breeding like rabbits. You can Tell they’re in a panic 🙂

  180. galamcennalath says:

    Ottomanboi says:

    the Brits are superficial

    One of the ways that can be seen is the traditional tendency to view a guy is nice suit with superficial good manners as a gentleman, and respectable.

    He might well be. Equally he could be a complete charlatan and rogue!

  181. frogesque says:

    One more time for the planks.

    I was born in England, deep Surrey.

    It wasn’t my choice. I chose to live in Scotland, served my time, married, had kids, grandkids, now ggkids and I’m now retired. My country is Scotland and I’m a member of the SNP.

    So lay the fuck off!

  182. yesindyref2 says:

    I wonder if there’s been a secret poll. Unionist panic is a breasty.

    Well, anyway, places to go, things to visit, people to do.


  183. Independence Live says:

    Just off the phone with Math from English Scots for Yes. We are planning a regular show with them amongst others on Independence Live so they can reach a wider audience. They were totally ignored during #IndyRef by the Scottish mainstream media but did over 30 interviews with foreign press.

    If you want to attack English people all you are doing is undermining our efforts for Scottish independence. The msm including the political parties like Labour tried to demonise us as being anti-English and still are.

  184. Undeadshuan says:

    @Terence callachan

    Dont bloody well generalise!

    I was born in England, schooled in scotland , supported independence since 1979, when i was too young to vote.

    Your attitude pisses me off.

    Are you a squadie sat in 77th HQ?

  185. galamcennalath says:

    Certain demographics, by whatever measure, were statistically inclined to be Yes or No. That’s inevitable. They way I look at it we have two objectives as activists. Firstly to keep Yessers on side, secondly to chip away at Nos to help them change their minds. Statistical analyses may be misleading at an individual basis, but collectively they tell us where and how to focus.

    Statistically, based on demographics, I should be Tory, Leave, and No. I buck the probabilities on all three.

    Setting aside age, location, gender, class, or country of birth, I still think No voters fit one of three categories – gullible, gutless, or greedy. To them these were perfectly valid reasons to vote No.

    To us that means – we need to provide alternative information to gullible, we need to dispel the fears of the gutless, and we need to persuade the greedy that their wealth is now threatened more by the Union than Indy.

    We don’t/can’t convert them all, just a proportion of each.

    If IndyRef2 is 55:45 Y:N I will be very content, if 60:40 I will be incredibly happy!

  186. Robert Louis says:

    gus 1940,at 532pm,

    Quite agree re the name of first minister. Besides (and linguists can help here) is it not the case that in most languages (except english), the terms Prime Minister and First Minister are exactly the same?

    I just had a quick check with google translate, and we get;

    Spanish: Primer Ministro (same for both)

    French: Premier ministre (same for both).

    German seem different though.

    The point is, they actually mean the same thing. It was done, in the same way as ‘executive’ instead of ‘Government’, to make Holyrood seem less important than Westminster. In the actual original Scotland act debates in Westminster, British Nationalists from Labour and Tories tried to make out it was all about avoiding confusion. Aye, right.

    Maybe we should all just start calling NS Prime Minister of Scotland. Nothing would upset the Rabid British Nationalist parties (Labour, Tory, Libdem) more than us doing that.

  187. galamcennalath says:

    The New Yorker – When Boris Johnson, Britain’s Minister of Magical Thinking, Explained Brexit to the People

    (The author is London based but this is aimed at a US audience)

    The Tories definitely.need to heed Burns’ words …

    O wad some Power the giftie gie us.
    To see oursels as ithers see us! “

  188. Cactus says:

    Good observation.

    “Setting aside age, location, gender, class, or country of birth, I still think No voters fit one of three categories – gullible, gutless, or greedy. To them these were perfectly valid reasons to vote No.

    To us that means – we need to provide alternative information to gullible, we need to dispel the fears of the gutless, and we need to persuade the greedy that their wealth is now threatened more by the Union than Indy.”

    Well said galamcennalath ~

  189. Bob Mack says:

    I Am pretty sure that we are not voting as English,Scottish or any other is. I think we are voting to have our country run in a different way.

    Brexit is a major game changer for everybody. Whether you are English or Scottish or anything else things are changing.

    The referendum must be about an alternative way of living together and improving what we have already. It must offer a different path to the stagnation of politics and indeed human experience offered by Westminster.

    It must be about fairness,equality and dignity. It must be about decency and working together to forge a future for those who come after. It does not matter about your politics or your skin colour or any other factor. It is about making something different, making different choices, and making a nation truly admired by those who come to visit or stay.

    We are all children of the same country in spite of our diversity. Fill people with a dream and a vision and they will listen. Fill them with exclusion,they will ignore you or try to hurt you.

    We are in this together.All of us.

  190. Cadogan Enright says:

    That’s about 22,000 per annum.

    A that rate it will be below 100,000 by February next year

  191. ScottieDog says:

    I probably buck the trend too. Most of my peers at work are no-voters. Many are up here from over the border but not all. Still a good number of Scottish middle class Times/telegraph/mail readers.
    I can’t see any of them changing their views on Indy.
    I got a bit of a ‘bloody nose’ in 2014 when someone made a comment about YES voters being thick. I belittled the individual simply because they couldn’t articulate economically why Scotland couldn’t be independent. That conversation spread like wildfire. A dickhead of a senior manager had a go at me (in public) -threatening about the future of business in Scotland if I got my way. It was really embarrassing and I was bloody fuming. I could have made a complaint but let it go.

    Anyway I have kept my powder dry since then but I have noticed that when you question these so called ‘intellectual’ middle class people their knowledge doesn’t exist beyond the daily mail economy section. They resort to things like “well jimmy krankie is a lesbian”. The knowledge is skin deep but the hatred runs deep.

    I reckon we need to pick the ‘low hanging fruit’ – the non-voters. We need to do it soon. Radical independence were really good at that last time.

    Leaving indyref campaign until 2021 is one hell of a risk. It gives the bbc etc a great target (the SNP) for the next 3 years. Smears, lies and deceit – omission of the brexit calamity and pushing SNP bad stories out there. Indyref (leave the union) pushes brexit firmly into the limelight. It’s a front foot campaign, not one where we have anything to defend. Project fear exists – it’s the government’s own analysis of brexit and any Indy campaign should be pressuring them to fully release the details.

  192. Still Positive says:

    Bob Mack @ 6.50

    Well said. 🙂

  193. Macart says:

    RE: A referendum

    The manifesto pledge is well known, but worth repeating.

    “if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will”

    Latterly the FM’s statement on EU negotiations June of last year –

    Pretty much, that’s the state of play.

    Mr Wishart is for extending that process and continuing along the path of gradualism and Mr Dornan is for using the current mandate, which exists and is beyond question.

    Several questions spring to mind. Do we trust a UK government beyond the current parliament? Do we trust that they will not enact further legislation or employ further acts of media intimidation and manipulation to neuter the Holyrood parliament? Are we confident that sizeable numbers within the indy movement won’t become disillusioned with what they may perceive as a broken commitment? No government. No party’s popularity lasts forever (which is kinda what the opposition’s war of attrition has been all about). How confident are we that voter apathy and constant establishment media saturation won’t finally win out at any future election?

    I’m a huge fan of gradualism. Of leading people to where you want them to be, rather than pushing them. Of building consensus and confidence over time. Sometimes though, events can make a total nonsense of the best strategies. I’d say this is one of those times. Without Brexit and the appalling hardship it promises to lay at folk’s feet, I’d have been prepared to follow through on the gradualist approach. It may have taken five more years. It may have taken ten, but another opportunity would have presented itself regardless and the population would have been more prepared.

    As it is? Brexit is a game changer in more ways than you can easily imagine. Constitutional crisis throughout these islands as agreements and pledges are shattered. Economic hardship not seen in decades. The threat of rights both human and civil being at the mercy of continued Tory whim and the very real possibility of Holyrood’s powers being lessened or as I said earlier, neutered.

    On this occasion I disagree with Mr Wishart. The impact of Brexit makes it fairly essential that the Scottish Government are seen to act as a government protecting the choice and interests of the population under its care. There will be no mitigating or offsetting the budgetary consequences of Brexit on a Scotland still party to political union with Westminster. No government, of whatever stripe, sitting at Holyrood could.

  194. ScottieDog says:

    @Bob Mack
    Great post. It’s tantalising when you see the stats about ‘scots born’ folk showing a majority for independence. How many people however would be turned off had YES tried to exclude others from voting?

  195. Macart says:

    Mmmm…Last census – New Scots citizens declaring England as point of origin 459,486 or 8.68% of total population.(shrugs)

    Being a Scot is a state of mind, not merely an accident of birth and it can be a way of living. Everyone who lives within these borders can have the chance to not only change the way we are governed for the better, but to have a say in the creation of that governance. Seems like a good deal t’me.

  196. Still Positive says:

    Macart @ 7.11

    Totally agree.

    What we should be saying to people is to look in their cupboards and see what comes from/is made in Europe. Apart from the obvious wine and olive oil – did you know HP sauce is made in the Netherlands?

    Also white goods: since August 2016 I have had to replace washer/ dryer and cooker both German and computer Slovenia. Freezer is Indesit but not clear where it is made – nothing on the back and the booklet is ambiguous.

    Toiletries: Nivea products seem to be made in several different EU countries; Poland, France and Spain.

    About 18 months ago I bought Elastoplast and noticed a German name on the box as I was putting it away – German company, made in Spain.

    All these products will go up in price because of tariffs.

  197. Donald Made says:

    The Daily Rangers fortunes have mirrored their team’s

  198. starlaw says:

    Thousands of people with English accents support Scottish Independence so I say to all who wish to drive a wedge between English and Scots in the run up to Indy 2 …Who’s Side Are You On ?

  199. Dr Jim says:

    Asda says there are no bananas today because of the Atlantic
    That’s what it said on the sign

  200. donnywho says:

    Was at Oatridge collage today… one of the lecturers was from England. Nice guy and pro Scottish Independence. He wanted rid of the Westminster Bubble.

  201. schrodingers cat says:

    once again you duck and dive and refuse to engage by absurdly personalising the issue. It’s not about you, you self-centred wimp.

    irony bypass

    as I said, dont reply, or read my comments just move on

  202. sassenach says:

    It upsets me, personally, when people start to differentiate voting rights based on where you happen to be born.

    I was born in England, chose to come to Scotland, as a teenager, qualified at a Scots university (NOT St Andrews!!) and spent most of the rest of the next 30 years educating Scots lads and lassies in state schools.

    Been a supporter of Indy for many of those years, and joined the SNP some years ago.

    Given that some folk on here might wish to remove me from a voters list, why should I bother trying to persuade others of my ilk? Aw’ and be wise!

    If I work and pay my taxes here then I should be able to vote here – rant over.

  203. Dr Jim says:

    Who’s blackmailing who?

    I’m thinking some folk are getting overly panicky about the word English, as if to mention it is somehow a dodgy subject and it shouldn’t be, it’s a Nationality the same as saying Scots or Irish or anybody else, and if you over sensitise yourself to mentioning it in case you feel it might offend an English person so much so they may change their mind and change their intended YES vote to NO or indeed cementing their decision of NO are you not in danger of blackmailing yourself by thinking a persons vote could be overturned by the mention of that Nationality, proving the point to those who may dislike the English on principle as be correct in their original assumption

    Just a thought in the style of Dr Sheldon Cooper

  204. Dan Huil says:

    There many English people who support an independent Scotland. Scotland has friends in Europe too.

  205. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Terence callachan@5.42pm

    Scotland is an inclusive country. Many of my friends who are English, most in fact, voted YES, many of my Scottish friends voted no, or were soft yes voters who hate the SNP with a vengeance, even if they paved the streets with gold. I have lived in Scotland for more years than I lived in england, and a staunch yesser, like many.

    One thing. Many English folks right now are moving to Scotland, many do seem to move into top jobs as if Scotland doesn’t have the talent(!), but if they are here for the long haul, say, more than 5 years,Ii don’t think we can deny them a vote at a referendum for Scottish independence. By then they will have a sense of the country and people, and perhaps, hopefully a bit of the history.

    Last year out leafletting, we met lots of students studying here, from England, all indicated they would vote no if we had a referendum#2. So, 5 years residency, and not just residency light, like a week every festival in a second home or cottage in the highlands they occupy once a year, would seem a good compromise.

    The problem is we will see many more young people leaving England, and many will come to live in Scotland. I meet lots of them at a meet up group, in Edinburgh. They love Scotland, but unless they live here a good while, should they be able to decide on Scotland’s future while having an English perspective only, on the real Scotland, ( ie, not just castles, tartan and Edinburgh festival) Scotland’s aspirations, and Scotland’s people?

    We risk though, with the UKGov power grab, being able to keep the rights of our 16/17 year olds to vote in Scotland. That might be a simple fly in the ointment, when it comes to Indy ref#2?

    Just my own perspective, but that could change. Must look at the ScotGov consultation on elections re Scotland, to see what is proposed there.

  206. Dr Jim says:

    Who’s prejudice here?

    Anas Sarwar is Pakistani brought up in Scotland his whole life but all of a sudden he’s decided there’s some racism knocking about so he wants everybody to be on his side and a fair minded person would normally do just that, but one wonders why in his whole life he’s never mentioned this until he loses a bitterly fought Labour Leadership contest in Scotland to a Yorkshireman from England, a reasonable minded person might also say *Aye right Anas*

    *Doth Anas protesteth too much*

    Try saying that quickly

  207. Robert Peffers says:

    @Terence callachan says: 16 February, 2018 at 5:05 pm:

    “18% of the people who live in Scotland are English people
    Nearly all are here temporarily to work”

    That’s wrong for a start and perhaps you would care to quote your sources for the statistics?

  208. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’m not researching here – I’m depending on what’s in my memory from browsing the web every day.

    I’m sure Nicola has said that a decision on the date of indyref2 will be made as soon as the Brexit details are published; probably in September or October this year, with the referendum taking place before the end of March 2019.

    OK, it’s not ideal, having to be out on the streets campaigning through the winter months. I recall Team YES Bus had a foodbank colection in November 2014, in City Square when Nicola was on stage at the Caird Hall (Dundee).

    It was absolutely BALTIC that night and counting all the coins caused freezing of the fingers. Not an experience I would hope to repeat.

    The other thing…
    We have all had the opportunity to inject input into the consultation on electoral rights. I have no doubt that most Yessers who have responded, will have suggested a 5 year residency qualification. I’ll be surprised if that is not the state of play for indyref2.

    Also, some commenters on here seem to be under the impression that we need permission/agreement from the UK government to hold indyref2. We don’t – stop peddling the propaganda from MSM.

    To finish, cut the crap about “English Scots For Yes”. I have met them at umpteen rallies. I’ve never met ‘that which rhymes with cock’ at a rally…

  209. Dr Jim says:

    Another example of shitty nonsense on prejudice *Blame the other guy*

    The Unionists want to repeal the OBFA because they say as part of their argument that there’s some free speech issues involved but what if when Scotland plays a sporting event against England for example and the *fans* launch into song about being up to their knees in English blood do we think those same Unionist politicians would consider that type of speech as to be allowed and free or in any way cultural

    I kinda don’t think so, but maybe proving the point that racism, sectarianism and stereotyping are things that children don’t suffer from because parents normally don’t want to embarrass themselves by having their kids turn up at nursery or school and repeating their views

    So how did these views begin

    Well, newspapers and politicians use them and promote them to get votes by dividing people into opposing camps

    Hatred of others always has been a nasty cheap political trick played on the minds of normally the poor to divide and conquer and the one thing these nasty people who employ these tactics don’t want is for the realisation in the minds of the people they’ve tricked is that Unity against them (The Trickers) would mean

    The Gemme’s a Bogey

  210. Tinto Chiel says:

    “To finish, cut the crap about “English Scots For Yes”. I have met them at umpteen rallies. I’ve never met ‘that which rhymes with cock’ at a rally…”

    Well said, BDTT.

    Or, for that matter, any of Cockadoodledoo’s clones.

    Five of the eleven office-bearers in my SNP branch are English. Two run the food-bank too.

    Enough, already.

  211. Bob Mack says:

    The trick is to win hearts and minds. That is it in a nutshell. Some may say that to do that would be impossible, but it is not. I have been alive long enough to study how a whole nation can be manipulated into believing that even the unpalatable was acceptable.

    We can do this in several ways, but most require the necessity to bedevil a faction of society, by opening up old wounds and grievances which are almost primal. Hitler did it in Germany, Mussolini in Italy, Mugabe in Zimbabwe.Trump is using Mexico as his ace in the hole. Do we want that ?

    My view is No. I would rather be dead. So what is left?

    We have a vision. We have belief. We have faith in who we are. We must welcome all or none. If we cannot share our vision and give people hope to live in a truly free society, that is down to us, not them.

    Having spent a career helping people overcome their phobias and conditions which paralysed them with fear, I know this to be true. You must believe in something before you can live it.

    That statement may be true for many on this site,who have also come to believe in something better.

  212. Robert Peffers says:

    I came across this two-part BBC documentary YouTube clips and found them very interesting.

    They are presented by Andrew Marr and were quite deceptive if you are not what the Rev Stu calls, “Alert Readers”.

    The first few moments are very revealing as BBC Propaganda but you have to be alert to pick up on the propaganda.

    Marr begins by saying, “Britain is Still asleep”, then immediately goes onto speak about, “Westminster”, but Westminster does NOT govern Britain – it only governs the United Kingdom bits of Britain.

    Then he switches tack again by saying, “After 43 years of membershipTHE COUNTRY has been voting to leave the European Union”, but neither Britain nor the United Kingdom are countries.

    The former, (Britain), describes the geographic term for a group of islands that actually contains eight distinct countries and the latter, “The United Kingdom”, is, as its title describes it, a kingdom and that kingdom contains only four of the eight British countries.

    So even in what, on the surface, seems not to be anti-Scottish is in fact laced with subliminal auto-suggestion and downright lies.

    However the two-part documentary is of great interest.

  213. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Macart @ 19:11,

    Excellent level-headed analysis. Thank you for that.

    As Peter Bell put it, “now’s the time if not quite yet the hour”. For some people though it’s not even the year. Not even the decade, one suspects. (And they still wonder why the SNP slipped more than expected at the last UKGE? Jeez.)

  214. Sinky says:

    O/T but another “Proud Scot” gets top position in Scotland.

    New national football manager spoke out during 2014 Indy referendum saying Scotland would be better off being subservient to England. Brexit anyone?

    Not sure this will go down well with the Tartan Army but no excuse for the abuse Amy MacDonald has received for wishing Alex Mcleish all the best as Scotland’s manager.

  215. ScottieDog says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Ref Marr – That’s probably something that would have got past me until I read your posts.
    I would add that BBC embeds neoliberal economics into the population very effectively. Think comments about the government “tackling the defcit”, “balancing the books”, “spiralling debt” – sending out the message that get finances are just like yours and mine.

    I long for a politician to reply that balancing the books in the UK’s case is economically destructive and that the UK central bank (which is what it should be called) can purchase the nations debt at will (and already has done).

    The BBC is the mouthpiece of a corrupt financial cabal.

  216. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Tinto Chiel at 9.00

    Well said
    We have many English members here.

  217. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    ScottieDog @ 19:07:

    I reckon we need to pick the ‘low hanging fruit’ – the non-voters. […] Radical independence were really good at that last time.

    I’m not averse to garnering votes for indy from wherever they can be got, but this is a self-promo myth of Cat Boyd & Co., I’m afraid. They may have done something about getting some previous refuseniks to register to vote – and all power to their elbow for so doing – but the stats tell another story. The turnout in Yes-voting Glasgow, where they were largely active, was still abysmally low. (Ironically, their efforts may only have made that figure worse.)

    I’m not saying it can’t be done, but it will take much more than the efforts of a few dilletante middle-class radicals, I fear.

    It would objectively be in the interests of the abstaining masses to vote for a better future for themselves along with the rest of us, but getting them motivated to act in their own best interests over anything at all remains a perennial problem. And recent events have only highlighted that a major tool of campaigning has unfortunately become the demotivating of an opponent’s potential support base.

    Sorry BTW you have to endure what you do in your own work environment though. The snarks are too shallow to be the real problem, but finding out what really underlies the “thatalecsammin” and “thatniklasturgin” reiterations isn’t easy.

    For the more thoughtful ones, the Phantom Power “Journey to yes” series may possibly help. It would be great if there was someone in your line of work – indeed someone in every line of work – who had seen the light and be willing to talk about it on the record.

    But maybe that’s also part of the problem. Just as I suspect there also are at the BBC, there may be plenty of people who don’t agree with the BritNat party line but who daren’t speak out for fear of the negative consequences.

  218. Phronesis says:

    Brexit isn’t going well and neither Scotland or N. Ireland voted for this monumental mess

    ‘This suggests that UK diplomatic assumptions that a hard-line approach by the European Commission and Parliament would be restrained in the Council by more pragmatic EU27 governments is simply not happening. The member states are happy to line up behind Michel Barnier, to harden rather than soften some wording, and to defer to one another’s sensibilities on emotive matters like Gibraltar and Northern Ireland’

    The foreign secretary is ‘limited’-obviously;

    ‘…That is partly about Johnson’s own manifest limitations as a politician, but it is also indicative of the much wider mess that the Brexiters have got themselves – and thereby our country – into…For that matter, many issues have surfaced which were scarcely, if at all, discussed before the vote. Things like Euratom membership, chemicals and medicine regulation, and all the arcana of international trade such as Rules of Origin, Most Favoured Nation status, or Mutual Recognition Agreements. Almost every day some new aspect or consequence arises, even as the time until Brexit happens drains remorselessly away. On the other hand, no one suddenly discovers some previously unexpected benefit of Brexit’

    The foreign secretary’s speech about Brexit goes down like a lead balloon;

    ‘This was the speech in which the foreign secretary was supposed to be making the positive case for Brexit. But like so much of what Boris does, the subtext was all about him…there’s scarcely a member of his own family, let alone his friends and colleagues, whom he hasn’t betrayed at some time. Just about the only thing he hasn’t betrayed are his principles. And that only because he doesn’t really have any…Even the hardline Brexiters in the audience now realised this was the wrong speech by the wrong person at the wrong time’

    This is the wrong government for Scotland making wrong decisions all the time on Scotland’s behalf- time for Scotland to exit.

  219. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 21:56,

    Just an afterthought, following on from what ScottieDog said, maybe Phantom Power should do a new series to complement the existing one, this time “no-vote to yes”!

    All about why they didn’t bother to turn out for indy last time – “them politicians, they’re a’ the same” – to realising that their own best interests are seriously under threat if we stay much longer in this damned Union.

    (Just a thought, in case anyone’s lookin… )

  220. heedtracker says:

    The BBC is the mouthpiece of a corrupt financial cabal.

    BBC r4 tory gimps are in sunny Nairn tonight with assorted tory sneaky shits such as,

    Jonathan Dimbleby presents political debate from Nairn Community & Arts Centre in Scotland with a panel including the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation Bertie Armstrong, Scottish National Party MP Joanna Cherry, Conservative MEP author and columnist Dan Hannan and the leader of the Scottish Labour Party Richard Leonard MSP.

    Didn’t catch it but its been quite a tory beeb r4 gimp week this one so why not top it off with a tory roaster like Hannan from the Torygraph and south east of England.

    As usual, No lefties on anything beeb r4 gimp network wise but The Today and Lunchtime news had spectacular beeb gimp boosts for Fox And Friends in New York, Orange Hitler’s fav show beeb gimps say Facebook is a threat to the very social fabric of the whole of the west.

    BBC’s massed ranks of professional liars are getting very odd these days, why Facebook is driving the whole of the teamGB tory msm mental like this is very, is still not that clear.

    A beeb gimp this morn says BBC r4 Today show has a new and exciting editor so things are going to change, as they all goose step out of the studio.

  221. heedtracker says:

    Looks like Sir Daniel Hannan’s left the beeb gimps in the boozer and gone sightseeing around Nairn. Is there anything a tory wont piss on in his Scotland region? no. Its their world right enough.
    Verified account

    3m3 minutes ago

    The romanticism surrounding Bonnie Prince Charlie – dashing escape across the heather, Flora MacDonald, loyal clansmen etc – shrouds the reality: this was a French invasion, led by a French-speaking autocrat who would have extinguished parliamentary government.

  222. heedtracker says:

    Daniel Hannan is having a lovely time in his Scotland region. Butcher Cumberland’s billet house still stands on Nairn High Street too.

    Summer 2014, we watched SLabour’s great Jim Murphy campaign Better Together just outside that house, surrounded by a lot of dudes who looked just like this tory twerp too.
    Verified account

    6h6 hours ago

    Time before the programme to visit the bleak moorland where the clans were broken at #CullodenBattlefield.

  223. DrunkenDee says:

    Long time lurker, but usually consider myself way to angry to contribute to useful debate on subjects since so many of you cover points so much more succinctly than I think I ever could…

    Just thought I’d stick the lyrics to one of my favourite songs up for you all since it seems to fit quite well…

    The tunes called “Downfall” by a band called “Architects” it’s heavy metal, so not everyone’s taste I’m sure but the lyrics are my personal anthem for how I feel about Indy, Brexit and the rich getting richer at our expense. Anyway here goes…


    They want all for one and none for all
    I want to be there to witness the downfall

    They’ll only sell us out once our backs are turned
    And we’ll keep paying the price until our lesson is learnt
    So cast your votes
    Watch them shed their skin
    Every snake has its price
    If the money’s on the table they don’t think twice
    So cast your votes, watch them shed their skin

    We are paralysed

    But there are none so blind as those who will not see
    What’s it going to take to get us to stand up?
    ‘Cause you can see it in their eyes, they don’t give a fuck
    About what matters to us

    Another faceless figure, an empty silhouette
    They’ll line their pockets and leave us six feet deep in debt
    So cast your votes, watch them shed their skin
    Always out for blood, praying on the weak
    We can count on them to paint the future bleak
    But we’re still standing by whilst they bleed us dry

    We are paralysed

    But there are none so blind as those who will not see
    What’s it going to take to get us to stand up?
    ‘Cause you can see it in their eyes, they don’t give a fuck
    About what matters to us
    So enough is enough
    What’s it going to take to get us to stand up?
    ‘Cause you can see it in their eyes, they don’t give a fuck

    ‘Right’ and wrong it’s all the same to me
    Thick as thieves as far as I can see
    They are leeches all (they are leeches all)

    ‘Right’ and wrong it’s all the same to me
    Thick as thieves as far as I can see (I can see)
    They are leeches all but we’re still standing by whilst they bleed us dry

    They want all for one and none for all
    I want to be there to witness the downfall

    We are paralysed

    They want all for one and none for all
    I want to be there to witness the downfall

    Don’t want to risk Revs hammers by getting the html wrong trying to post the YouTube link (feel free to fix it for me me if you anyone likes)

  224. Brian Powell says:


    Hannah on 1745 is going to be embarrassing for all those Unionist posing in kilts at the Burn’s Suppers: Carmichael etc.

  225. ronnie anderson says:

    Noo whit ARSEHOLE started the English /Scots devicive pish again, i canny be bothered scrolling back to find out but how many times has this been regurgitated on WINGS tell they FUCKERS to PISS OFF from the start .

  226. heedtracker says:

    Brian Powell says:
    16 February, 2018 at 10:31 pm

    He’s our tory master Brian, just enough Scot like being ruled over by toryboys like this git and I do not know why really. It cant all be down to the professional liars of Pacific Quay.

    But its nice to think of the tory twat freezing his nuts off on Culloden and not enjoying what little “romanticism surrounding Bonnie Prince Charlie” there actually is. Unless they’ve beefed it up a a bit lately.

    Tory gits like this just despise anything in their Scotland region that suggests non UKOK rule. Its a clear threat to their UKOK power and glory that just wont die, quite a lot due to SLabour guys like Jim Murphy too.

  227. Dan Huil says:

    Didn’t hear the latest Britnat propaganda QT crap. But this Hannan chap, from what I’ve read above, has shown his own ignorance if he thinks pro-indy supporters in Scotland are pro-indy because of all the Bonnie prince Charlie guff.

    Hannan’s the one living in the past.

    Anyway, as we all know, BPC was, to quote a Scot at Culloden, a “cowardly Italian”.

  228. Dr Jim says:

    These are the same folk who constantly romanticise and invent stories of British world wars and how Britain stood alone and won them without the aid of anyone except as an afterthought

    Anybody in Scotland feel like they won anything, Germany were supposed to be the losers they keep telling themselves

    Aye right

  229. auld highlander says:

    heedtracker @ 10.25

    Whereabouts on Nairn High Street?

  230. heedtracker says:

    auld highlander says:
    16 February, 2018 at 11:14 pm
    heedtracker @ 10.25

    Whereabouts on Nairn High Street?

    Its easy to spot, its just up from the town house and opposite the co-op.

    Its an odd thing to survive and I don’t know how long the Butcher actually billeted there. He could have been there for a while as they spent a lot of time after the battle, doing what victorious invasion forces always, murder, rape, pillage.

    And lets face it, if you look at Fort George, they were really only getting going.

    Butcher Cumberland was a colossal Hanoverian Georgian hero but its interesting how a modern day toryboy like Hanan pisses all over Culloden like that, as there’s not that much to see really. Its not like the great WW1 cemeteries in France for example.

    There probably should be because the Highlands of Scotland being destroyed at Culloden became a very British imperial template around the world. But that’s not how toryboy teamGB works.

  231. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dr Jim: good point.

    Recently I was talking to an acute Yesser who had visited the Cologne area in the 70s and had compared it to the shithole Lanarkshire he normally inhabited. He was under the impression the “losers” had benefited at our expense.

    I pointed out that, according to my recollection, the UK had received even more via the Marshall Plan than Germany had’ like this:

    Where did it all go wrong, peeps?

    As if we didn’t know…

  232. Effijy says:

    So called UK Newspapers have no relationship with real news.
    News should have all the facts, the full picture, be without personal bias.

    No journalist coming through fro college has s
    Hope in hell of getting a job if they don’t follow the
    Propaganda directive.

    It can be such a well paid job many are willing to take
    The 30 pieces of Silver , Company car, expense account
    And damn good pension.

    The very rich and powerful who own the UK media and their
    Westminster charlatans will give papers like the broken Record
    Whatever it needs to keep pumping out the SNP Bad stories and
    Keep Scotland’s money in their pockets.

    Very clever arrangement for hiding corrupt payments to these pamphlets
    Take Scotland’s TV licence money and give it to puppets like the Record.

    Such a shame about the ordinary workers who will face Zero hours contracts all to soon

  233. Iain says:

    Glad,to see the record is fucked.
    Richly deserved.

  234. heedtracker says:

    auld highlander says:
    16 February, 2018 at 11:14 pm
    heedtracker @ 10.25

    Whereabouts on Nairn High Street?

    Just up from the town house and merkat cross. That’s where Jim Murphy was Better Togethering it too, 2014, surrounded by very enthusiastic lanky dudes in tweeds, barbour jaikets and army haircuts. They all really liked lucky Jim.

  235. Cubby says:

    No newspapers being bought by anyone in my household. Now have to work on my family to convince them to cancel the dreadful BBC license fee. THE BBC ARE SCUM.

  236. call me dave says:

    Looks like WOS twitter is ‘fingers x’d’ fixed. 🙂

  237. louis.b.argyll says:

    Nobody won the Second World War. Except maybe Switzerland.

    People celebrated because (they thought) death and misery was at an end. Hitler lost, we lost, France lost, Germany lost, Holland, Belgium lost, the USA billed us, because they owe us nothing.

    Since 1950, England has suffered from an acute identity crisis, being unable to maintain it’s ill-gotten supremacy, unable to play the tough guy.

    A thousand years of invasion, empire, racism, conflagration, war with France, Spain, Belgium, Germany had come to an end.

    So now, the English ruling class, have only Scotland, a bit of Ireland and their own working-class left to oppress and conspire against.

    How can Scots, of even low intelligence, be loyal to England’s ‘crown’ above their own family and community?

    Because, a really long time ago, they were Divided and Ruled by rich empire-building aristocrats and zealots.

    Because their recent economic history has once more fragmented families and family values.

  238. North chiel says:

    “ Sinky@ 0937pm” couldn’t agree with you more Sinky, “ no excuse for the abuse Amy Macdonald has received for wishing Alex MacLeish all the best as Scotland’s manager”. Certain members of the “ tartan army” should “ wise up politically” and ask themselves why one of Scotland’s finest contemporary singer songwriters has been virtually “ airbrushed” from the local radio airwaves in this country by the “ Britnat local and national radio stations”? This talented “ pro Independence” Scottish girl plays to massive audiences all over Europe and is hugely popular all over the continent ,especially in Germany , never without her designer saltire/ St Andrew’s cross microphone. Her song “ Pride” inspired by the tartan army singing “ Flower of Scotland “ at Hampden. A fantastic ambassador abroad for our country and a genuine Scottish musical “ class act” with her wonderful backing group. Ask yourself when was the last time you saw her on TV or heard her on the radio in her home country?? If you want to see a genuine “ European class” Scottish musical team in action ,then I suggest watching her “ Rudalstadt festival 2017 “ concert on u tube or her concert a few years back with the “ German philharmonic orchestra “ .
    I agree with Amy , yes indeed all the best indeed to “ big Alex” in his new job. I for one will never forget his wonderful Scottish team ‘s victory over “ World champions “ France in Paris during his previous tenure & who could ever forget that magnificent James Mcfadden goal? Let’s hope that we are Independent for the Euros in 2020 !

  239. Cactus says:

    Previously on Cairnstoon:

    What & who is it gonna be this Saturday.


    NB The Daily Record sales will continue to drop.

  240. Macart says:


    Pretty much. Think global warming. Something that was always going to happen naturally as part of a cycle, but has been needlessly and recklessly sped up by unnatural interference.

    Press print media is naturally fading due to the advancement of the digital age. The march of technology. Advertisers are shifting their focus to online and broadcast outlets. Ordinary people are shifting their communications, reading, personal sales and notices online and toward social media. A natural technological and sociological phenomenon/advancement/evolution.

    Under these circumstances alone, print media would have slowly faded in single figure percentage points over the next decade. There would have been a measured cutting off point where the printed world would move wholly to the digital. Monks – letterpress – litho (crude, but you get the drift).

    The unnatural bit which has provided a perfect storm? The individual’s ability to gather information from many sources. The ability to cross check and assimilate information at our own pace rather than become reliant on a single source which spoon feeds us. Scandal after scandal rocking press institutions (see under Leveson). The undermining of trust and faith in news outlets (see under fake or contaminated news). Political and societal polarisation (see under … our own experience) and the exponential growth of independent new media sources as the individual becomes empowered.

    What should have been a gradual, natural decline suddenly becomes catastrophic free fall. Low single point percentage decline becomes year on year double digit loss of readerships and advertising revenue.

    Needless, short sighted, and reckless idiocy. Also?

    Their choice. It didn’t have to be this way.

  241. yesindyref2 says:

    25 years ago, more, it was forecast print media would be overtaken by online, but the papers were very slow to get on the web. Even just HTML with a bit of script would have been better, it would have given them some understanding of the new media.

    But more than that, papers didn’t invent the newsprint or ink, they didn’t need to invent the WWW and HTML either. What they do use though is common distribution methods, and rather than the Herald droppping off its own papers with a fleet of vans, they use a distribution service which drops off bundles of all the papers.

    That’s what they should have got together, researched and planned 20 years ago, building their own common online news publishing and distribution platforms, and advert placement. I guess they went their own way on competition with each other, using third party software rather than their own collective purpose built platform.

    The likes of the Herald which has desperately tried to maximise its online ad revenue is so painfully slow and full of freezes, jumps, hangs, slow responses from all the different platform servers, there’s no option BUT to use adblockers – I use ABP and uBlock. I think their reaction is to deliberatley slow things for those using blockers, could be wrong, and if true it’s incredibly stupid “if it’s like this with blockers what would it be like if I turned them off?”. But if it was sensibly done with quick responses I’d not bother. Who minds the odd advert – as long as it’s not flashing like a strobe light or sliding all over the place?

    They also size, resize, size again and jump all over the place, you have to be dedicated to be bothered looking. They’re not very competent, it’s not rocket science to reserve the space and backfill while the main content is rock steady.

    It all goes back 20 years, some years before the web really took off like there’s no tomorrow, where they should have had the foresight to see what was coming and invest while they had the money. And then they could have had their paywalls and ad placements all working smoothly, unobtrusively, just catching the eye every so often with some contextual ad at the side, top or bottom.

    It took them too long to wake up, and the coffee has gone cold.

  242. Macart says:


    Pretty much. Many of us in the graphics industries saw this coming a long way off. The publishers though were too wedded to their tried and tested formula of the 20th century to consider preparing for the new technological era of the 21st.

    Their lack of preparation and foresight proved their downfall in more ways than one. It left them exposed and shamed as institutions with no out and little in the way of inclination by the public to cut them any slack.

    Now they’re playing catchup with a very tech savvy and understandably suspicious public. I’d wish them luck but… etc.

  243. Nana says:

    Highland and Island Council budget, which only SNP opposed. Read the impact statements (item 4) to find rural highlands and the poor impacted most with this budget.

    Skills gap and policy delay may ruin firms, says British Chambers of Commerce chief

  244. Nana says:

    Like ‘banging your head against a brick wall

    May cancels Lord’s appointments

    In America 13 Russians Indicted in First Charges on 2016 Election Interference

  245. Robert Peffers says:

    @ScottieDog says: 16 February, 2018 at 9:41 pm:

    “@Robert Peffers
    Ref Marr – That’s probably something that would have got past me until I read your posts.
    I would add that BBC embeds neoliberal economics into the population very effectively.”

    Very true, ScottieDog, It isn’t the much more obvious BBC propagated propaganda that does most damage because most people pick up on their obvious, often insulting, BBC propaganda. It is the more subtle stuff the Scots do not even notice that does most damage to the independence cause.

    For example I know Scots who were/are very upset at how Scotland is artificially made to look very small in size in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom on BBC weather maps but who, when explaining how they are upset by a weather map, fall into the BBC trap and use either of the terms, “Britain”, or, “The rest of the United Kingdom”, when they complain about the weather map.

    The point being that the BBC is subtly implanting it the Scottish people’s mind that Scotland is leaving the United Kingdom when the truth is that what Scotland will leave behind is, “The Kingdom Of England”, and not as the BBC portrays it as, “The rUK”.

    Note right here on Wings how Rock pitches in so bitterly against my comments that point out the truth that everyone in the British Isles are British and that includes the Republic of Ireland.

    Note that in the case of the Republic the BBC propaganda has been even more successful in brainwashing the Republic’s people into thinking of the Kingdom of England as Britain and they claim they are not British even as they are all living in the British Isles. Britain is neither, “A”, country nor is it , “The United Kingdom”.

    This situation is mirrored in the Americas where the USAsians of, “The United States of America”, describe themselves as, “The Americans”, yet, “The Americas”, stretch from the north to south pole of the World and everyone on that great lump of the World are thus, “Americans”.

    Not only that but, “The United States”, does not even properly describe the, “USAsians”, as the correct name of what they refer to as, “Mexico”, is really called, “The United States of Mexico”.

  246. Macart says:

    Ta Nana

    Always worth checking in for. 🙂

  247. yesindyref2 says:

    What they COULD have done is marry paper with online. First develop some modifcation or end process for the presses to print a unique code on some page in every paper. In fact not just a code, but a unique area for future use (no idea what).

    Then the reader registers, and logs in, and is asked for the unique code. That gets them access, and is some protection for someone else sneakily looking at the code without buying the paper, as if they used it, it would show they “stole” the code when they used it under their login and the actualy buyer of the paper and owner of the code tried to use it themselves and reported it!

    Then with the login the ability to read online material without an additional subscription, comment, and access other special areas like a prize quiz like that HQ trivia app I heard about and saw on Thursday (daughter and fiance). They could integrate that with their advertisers and there you go, an incentive to buy the paper – or subscribe to the online where they’d get the same access.

    Problem is now they’re strapped for cash, their web people are under pressure because they’re probably understaffed same as the journalists, they’d have to really invest along with the rest of the media to get printing presses or add-ons developed, and need to employ more people with the already decreasing revenues. Downward spiral.

    I guess I do wish them luck, but they’d need to ditch their party loyalties.

  248. Nana says:

    Morning Macart

    I always put them on the old thread on cartoon day, hoping wingers are aware of that.

    As you can see there’s quite a lot today, a pretty mixed bag 🙂

  249. Bill McLean says:

    Daniel Hannan’s knowledge of the last Jacobite Rising is based on his feelings of superiority and exceptionalism. If only he understood that the ignorance and arrogance that produces statements like he has made probably defines so much else in his life. Sad person!

  250. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thanks for the serving of links as per usual, nana. (I always check on the previous thread anyway to catch up on what’s been happening since I last visited. You most of all.)

    As for Brexit, it seems there’s a steady increase in business types desperately trying to make any sense of the UKGov’s madcap “break for freedom” from “EU servitude”, and dismally failing. Inevitably.

    You have to wonder at what point the business community will publicly break from the “party of business”, or if they will remain in this wierd state of suspended disbelief until they (and all the rest of us along with them) actually launch over the precipice. (Or for that matter if Mayhem & Co will finally funk the leap in the last few feet from the edge.)

    It’s a very different story from all the wild scaremongering many business folks were so strident about back during indyref1. Then was largely fantasy, whereas this time it’s very much for real.

  251. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “Note right here on Wings how Rock pitches in so bitterly against my comments that point out the truth that everyone in the British Isles are British and that includes the Republic of Ireland.”

    Your “truth” or your verbal diarrhoea?

    How many times do you have to be reminded that it is the political term “British” that matters and is recognised and hated throughout the world?

    No-one gives a damn about the geographical term “British” except pedants and pub bores like yourself.

    The Portuguese are proud to be Portuguese, the Spaniards to be Spanish, not Iberian.

    The Irish stopped being “British” a long time ago and every Scottish independence supporter except yourself can’t wait to stop being “British”.

    You will be considered an utter “numpty” if you announce yourself as “British” after Scotland becomes independent (in 622 years’ time).

  252. Hamish100 says:

    The next referendum is all down to timing.

    Short campaign required linked with the brexit negotiations going pear shaped as it will.

    Has to be positive Independence v. brexit

  253. Hamish100 says:

    Rock must be on triple time. Working Sunday’s and on before 8pm.

    As for boring –WHO CARES WHAT HAPPENS IN 622 YEARS!!!

    It is the next year or two that will determine this country’s future.

    Things are beginning to ratchet up and the No’s/brexiter’s are beginning to panic. After who will put their trust in Johnstone, Gove, Rees-Mogg, May, Davidson, Mundell, leonard and Corbyn.

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