The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Really smart and very stable

Posted on February 17, 2018 by

Print Friendly

    3 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 17 02 18 07:56

      Really smart and very stable | speymouth

    2. 17 02 18 13:14

      Wings Over Scotland | Really smart and very stable | Smeddum's Hotpotch

    3. 18 02 18 10:28

      Really smart and very stable. Relax. It’s not about weapons. It’s about mental health – World is Crazy

    287 to “Really smart and very stable”

    1. yesindyref2 says:

      Little does he know the FBI actually wired it up to an ejector seat.

    2. Malky says:

      Your picture flatters Donald the Trumpet, Chris.

    3. IheartScotland says:

      School kids in the US now learn how to survive a ‘School attack’ much like the nuclear war days..( hide and protect) duck under your desk and hope like ‘feck’…it’s so very sad. But all too common.

    4. IheartScotland says:

      ‘Potential’ nuclear war days that I grew up in. Well….hmmm

    5. IheartScotlanf says:

      Just ask Donald…

    6. jimnarlene says:

      Chilling, very chilling.

    7. Bill says:

      There are guns in every home in the Falkland Islands, at Christmas there was a sale of 9mm Glocks in local supermarket! 800 quid for a Glock!?

    8. Effijy says:

      America gave us “One Flow Over The Cookoos Nest”
      How little did we know it’s nest would one day sit atop
      The American President.
      That’s internally and externally.

      Caught a piece on BBC Breakfast yesterday about kids learning Mathematics.
      Very quickly the reporter mumbled about how England and Ireland are have the
      Worst performing school kids in Europe.

      I take it then that Scotland again does better than England.
      Isn’t it strange this wasn’t an extensive in depth report repeated
      Across all UK media, just as it would had Scotland been down there?

      Has Ruth come out of hiding in the Bakers shop to discuss the proven dire consequences
      For Scotland, should her Tory party rip Scotland out of Europe?
      Maybe ask why The Tories in England are not getting on with the day job on Education
      Rather than touring the world pleading for anything they could pretend is a trade deal.

    9. starlaw says:

      United States of America is at war with terrorism all over the world. Meanwhile in its own homeland schools children are being slaughtered by American citizens and no action is taken.
      The President declares something is wrong with the mentality of its citizens and to a point he is right. There is something wrong with the mentality of the only country in the world who permits this to happen, become normal even, there is a problem … From the top down. The people of the USA need to go to war on this terrorism now starting with the removal of President Chump.

    10. ronnie anderson says:

      Trumps had his medical but not Phycratic evaluation that might have said he was strong & stable. All American School kids & Parents can do is wait on the next massacre since Trump repealed the Obama bill on mental health aspects of gun applications .

    11. galamcennalath says:

      My understanding is that Second Amendment giving the right to bear arms had in mind “a well regulated militia”. That seems a far cry from the free for all they have.

      I suspect that “militia” was considered necessary because of the threat from the UK a couple of centuries ago! It was also at a time when the US had very limited standing armed forced. An armed citizenry made sense.

      Times have changed!

    12. Macart says:

      He truly is an appalling article.

      A scary one Chris and right on the money.

    13. starlaw says:

      I believe the American constitution states That citizens have the right to bear arms … in defence of the state.

    14. carjamtic says:

      Now then Boris,is the answer ?

      A. Jumping the Shark
      B. Nukeing the Fridge
      C. Truth and Consequences


    15. Abulhaq says:

      Media POTUS obsession….will it make you go blind?

    16. Morgatron says:

      Who really is the Phsyco Killer?

    17. Bob Mack says:

      The guy has all the stability of an Ikea table.

    18. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      That’s a very good drawing.

    19. Bob Mack says:

      If 20,000 Americans minimum are killed annually by their fellow Americans ,then if Donald is right, there must be a major mental health problem in America.

      I have never understood the need to carry an implement that causes death, whether that be a gun or a knife. I always believe it shows fear rather than courage. People who are very afraid are even more likely to use these weapons in the first instance rather than see them as a last resort.

    20. Clootie says:

      …as it has been stated many times the 2nd Amendment was written in the period of single shot muskets and basic revolvers plus the political/national requirement to raise a skilled militia quickly.

      I don’t think auto fire assault rifles and truck mounted 50cal weapons quite fit the legislation a few hundred years later.

      The most chilling call was the demand for MORE guns in schools to DEFEND the kids?

    21. One_Scot says:

      Alex McLeish – ‘Scotland, you are too shit to be a real country, but I will still take your money’.

      Why does that have a familiar feel to it?

    22. Tinto Chiel says:

      You’ve caught his glaikit simper perfectly, Chris: chilling.

      What galamcennalath said @8.48.

      The Simpsons had a great line about the lunacy of the Second Amendment, some thing along the lines of “Yes, we all need more assault rifles because we never know when George III will invade.”

      What is truly disturbing is that the country has been brainwashed into thinking more guns are always the answer, just so a tiny minority of arms dealers can become obscenely rich. Americans are literally sacrificing their children because of the NRA and its “sponsored” Congressmen.

      Their appalling healthcare system also survives because they brainwash the electorate to vote against their own best interests and influence them to think a National Insurance-based system like ours is akin to evil communism.

      The sad fact is the USA needs to foment perpetual wars abroad to enrich its arms industry (just like the UK), what Eisenhower recognised as “the industrial-military complex”.

    23. dakk says:

      Neatly done Chris.

      Scary and funny at the same time.

    24. Winifred McCartney says:

      In the National during the week was an article recalling a pay-off to a woman Chump had slept with only one year after marrying his current wife – this information came out during the presedential election but still the Chump survived – he is covered in teflon and it seems his base is so disallusioned with govt they are prepared to accept him as he is because the believe he is their salvation. Big mistake – he is only capable of thinking about himself – his money – his power – his ego. Yet if he had put the money his father left him into savings he would have made more – it takes something to make a loss in a gambling casino – but chump managed it. It is a sad sight to see America ruled by this chump.

    25. louis.b.argyll says:

      Donald Trump,

      Is really quite stable,

      As a fresh jelly trifle,

      On a three legged table.

    26. PictAtRandom says:

      One_Scot says:
      17 February, 2018 at 9:38 am

      Alex McLeish – ‘Scotland, you are too shit to be a real country, but I will still take your money’.

      Why does that have a familiar feel to it?

      It reminds me that Blair McDougall’s failure at the GE means he is available for a second bite at managing Bitter Thegither. Always look on the bright side…

    27. Robert Peffers says:

      @IheartScotland says: 17 February, 2018 at 7:27 am:

      “School kids in the US now learn how to survive a ‘School attack’ much like the nuclear war days..( hide and protect) duck under your desk and hope like ‘feck’…it’s so very sad. But all too common.”

      Aye! IheartScotland, the same USA where the kids are brainwashed from the day they enter their schools. Every morning they stand, place their hand on their heart and chant, “The Pledge of Allegiance”.

      They put your hand over your heart, (like when they sing their national anthem), and chant, “The Pledge”.

      The pledge is “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”

      There are differences in different states as to whether the singing of the USA National Anthem is compulsory and if it is sung every morning or just once a week.

    28. louis.b.argyll says:

      How can eleven Scottish footballers make the international grade, when half the country..

      (if you include incomers but exclude foreign settled workers)




      We can do much better.

    29. Tam the Bam. says:


      Q: What noisy brass wind instrument does the American President play?

      A:The Trumpaphone.

      ……I’ll get my coat.

    30. Dan Huil says:

      No wonder rabid British nationalists love Trump.

      Re: McLeish. Like Smith afore him, he’s just anither Britnat who’ll dump Scotland as soon as he’s offered more money.

    31. Indy2 says:

      If McLeish is a true Unionist, should he be barred from singing Flower of Scotland?

      How can he stand there and ask:

      “When will we see your likes again?”

      I think Mr McLeish has a few questions to answer.

    32. Bob Mack says:

      Interesting story emerging of two students who filmed inside an Orange Lodge. They captured mobile phone images of the members present who obviously felt relaxed. They made jokes about shooting Catholics and one even described how he would take his Boys Brigade troop to some type of shooting range and tell them the targets were Catholic.

      Present at this laugh in was one of Ruths Tory councillors.

      Needless to say the evening ended with demands for the students ID and SIM cards. Threats were also used re their personal future safety.

    33. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve got no problem with Alex McLeish being a Unionist but I do have a problem with him managing the National football team of the country he says doesn’t or shouldn’t exist

      You either keep your mouth shut or don’t do it
      But then again I’m talking about principles the only thing the poor can afford to have

    34. Indy2 says:

      McLeish is just another “Kiss the Badge” ProudScotBut…

    35. Hamish100 says:

      The logic of the US gun lobby is that each person should eventually have a nuclear weapon to ensure their safety. MAD indeed.

      Apart from a pistol the ownership of machine guns, cannons and the like should not be allowed with individuals.

    36. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If McLeish manages the team well he’ll do for me.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      Ok, what are the chances that Scotland will have it’s own national team at the next Winter Olympics?

      IMO, more likely that not 🙂

    38. Old Pete says:

      Odd, if Alex McLeish does not believe Scotland to be a country how can he sing `Flower of Scotland` at the start of matches ? He is without a doubt a backward move by a unionist dominated SFA.
      When Scotland regains its independence would he be happy to manage a country he never truly believed in ?
      How Scottish sport in general is full of Scots but…..
      Devalues sport here in general, how they claim to be proud of a country they don’t believe exits shows what little integrity most sports people have.

    39. Highland Wifie says:

      It seems to me that people in the US have become so accepting of the status quo with respect to gun laws that it will be very difficult if not impossible to make any meaningful change. When your mindset is along the lines of ‘there are bad people out there and I must protect myself’ it becomes difficult to feel safe without recourse to a firearm. The fact that there is little chance of having time or ability to access that firearm in an emergency situation does not impact that mindset.
      I have spoken to ordinary American family men and women who seem rational and sensible in every other way but still defend the right to bear arms. It’s almost like its part of their dna. Others who do not support it feel powerless to do anything about it.
      There is though a general feeling that there is no need for anyone other than the military to have access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons and this is where there should be movement for change. However, the combination of a powerful NRA and the ability of different states to legislate differently would lead to reluctance of any state to change the law on this unilaterally. It would have to have agreement nationally. Not much chance with this guy in charge. Even Obama for all his rhetoric didn’t make much impact on gun laws. Whilst gun shops do background checks, gun fairs and the like are largely unregulated.
      Australia has managed to make significant changes to their gun laws after their Port Arthur shooting but I’m not sure the US has the will to go down this road yet. What will it take?
      I can only hope something changes before my grandchildren get to school.

    40. stewartb says:

      So Scotland’s National football team, which plays in international competitions against the teams of (normal) nation states, is managed by someone (and probably supported by many) who do not wish Scotland to be a similar (normal) nation state.

      OK, but let’s be clear, this puts them on the same side as powerful others in the British/English establishment that espouse quite explicitly a ‘one nation’ political vision for the UK – ‘one nation’ is a phrase used in just about every speech by the present Tory Prime Minister on domestic, UK matters.

      “… rise now and be the nation again ” – tartan-clad ProudScotbuts better be quick to do this or their children and grandchildren may well be left only with nostalgia.

    41. Highland Wifie says:

      Brilliant cartoon btw Chris.
      Sorry forgot to say!

    42. admiral says:

      This from the nasty piece of work who, as Home Secretary, threatened to withhold key intelligence information from an independent Scotland purely for petty, spiteful political idealogical reasons. Thus putting innocent men, women and children at risk of being killed and maimed

      Hypocrite doesn’t even start to cover it.

    43. Meindevon says:

      A couple of years ago I had the shocking experience of attending one of the largest, if not the largest gun show in the USA. ( no I am not an arms dealer just that the family business has tenuous connections not gun related and customers were at the show ) Thousands of stalls. There was everything from camouflaged ladies underwear to machine guns too heavy to lift by their thousands. It was mainly geared towards hunting. Lots of camouflage stuff, rifles that were beautifully ornate and costing hundred of thousands of dollars cost price,hunting knives galore, crossbows, etc., etc.. Also several big British names were there plying their wares. Union flags flying above their stalls. I met a Scottish guy on the plane home (it was just after the ref and he was a unionist who genuinely thought Indy would have been bad for his business) who had been checking out night vision equipment for night time wildlife tours.

      The point being it was clear that the arms trade in the USA is unstoppable now. Billions of dollars worth of, not only arms, but the ‘by products’ of it. Hunting is huge in the USA. ‘Do you hunt?’ Is almost the first question you get asked in the Midwest. Well after ‘do you know the queen?’ I can’t see it ever being put back in the box. It is well and truly out there, sadly. The best we could hope for is slightly stricter regs. But I won’t be holding my breath.

    44. Romaff says:

      Button should have been much bigger. Donald won’t like it.

    45. Flower of Scotland says:

      @starlaw 8.32am

      America IS the terrorist!

      About Alex McLeish. I know nothing about football, not really, but I just think that he,s old hat! Why couldn’t the SFA have found someone new!

      Before 2014 I watched the Scotland games in football and rugby and have been to Murrayfield more than a few times. After the run up to the referendum when rugby players and Alex came out on the NO side, I was fair scunnered, and haven’t cared about a Scotland game since. They could have said nothing but I think it was a deliberate doing down of the YES side.

      When your National teams and leaders of those teams don’t support their own country they’re better being quiet about it.

    46. OT I hear that 17 Russians are to be charged for interfering in the US elections I wonder if our police will charge Obama and all the EU leaders who interfered in the Scottish referendum ???

    47. Robert Louis says:

      Great cartoon, as usual. In a few weeks when US media interest wains, things in the US will go back to the way it is now, and voices arguing against guns will be drowned out by the wealth paid advocates of the NRA and gun industry.

      Trump is NOT going to address the issue. Period.

      In other matters, some days I read the stories of the British Nationalist behaviour, and just despair. We have the apprentice boys of Derry (a N.Ireland organisation in Scotland who basically hold the same views as the orange sectarian bigots), filmed talking about shooting catholics – and worse, one of the people on stage may have been the chapalain (far lewft of stage), with all gathered laughing at the prospect. The said gathering of MEN repeatedly threatening some students who had been invited in, and who accidentally filmed the comments.

      Then we find out the president of the apprentice boys is a current Tory councillor, of Ruth Davidson’s Tories.

      I suppose Ruth Davidson will be refusing to be interviewed as usual.

      Then we have the BBC’s Claire Balding behaving like a patronising British Nationalist fool, telling a Scot off for using the word Scotland, in relation to the Scotland curling squad (every member of the ‘team GB’ curling team is from the Scotland squad, and is Scottish). SSsssh… don’t mention the ‘S’ word.

      Then to top it off we have a BBC presenter continually qualifying the word Scotland or Scottish, over and over again, by saying ‘Scottish athlete, competing as team GB’. They cannot just say ‘Scottish athlete’.

      BBC british Nationalist propaganda, and Tory extremist, sectarian, racist bigotry. What a way to start Saturday.

    48. wullie says:

      from scot goes pop
      Rhona Howie visibly shrinks into herself and mutters “sorry”.

      Did she really say that. My god the cringe runs deep, what other national on this planet would accept such an insult. she should have told baldy to F off.

    49. mogabee says:

      Slightly unfair showing the Donald as itching to press that big button Chris!! You really should have added another elephant in the room, namely the ‘Military Industrial Complex’..

      He’s teasing the world isn’t he, that blob of useless manhood? Will he, won’t he everyone wonders, but by fuck the world leaders are sooking up big time.

      Guns,Trident, missiles and the rest are just destroyers of children truth be told.

    50. stewartb says:

      Flower of Scotland@ 11:40 am

      You write: “Before 2014 I watched the Scotland games in football and rugby and have been to Murrayfield more than a few times. After the run up to the referendum when rugby players and Alex came out on the NO side, I was fair scunnered, and haven’t cared about a Scotland game since. They could have said nothing but I think it was a deliberate doing down of the YES side.”

      Yes I was very disappointed too at the number of sports personalities coming out against our self-determination and status as a nation state. Of course many of them had the status of sporting ‘hero’ as a result of achievements in representing Scotland in international competitions with ‘normal’ nation states! And like you, this has reduced my interest in our ‘national’ sports teams ever since.

      There are a number of incidents that stick in the mind from 2014 but one that made me really angry was on a BBC panel discussion about the indyref when Scottish rugby ‘hero’ Scott (I think it was) Hastings said, with a straight, serious face, that (I paraphrase) he could never vote ‘YES’ because it would deprive future rugby players from Scotland from playing for the British Lions! My TV screen has rarely been at such risk!

      So was this ProudScotbut just plain ignorant of the actual composition of the British and Irish Lions team (had he really no appreciation of the contribution made by the Republic of Ireland) or only too happy to deceive the ‘nation’ for the cause? No more heroes any more!

    51. Dan Huil says:

      @wullie 12:18pm

      The British nationalist media ignores Scotland’s curlers all the time – except if there’s a chance during an olympics that England’s national anthem will be played after a Scots’ win.

    52. Bill and Ben says:

      About 3 years ago my son was stabbed with a knife, there was a fracas inside his close beside his door, the people upstairs where dealing drugs and two wiseguys went to rob them of their ill gotten gains.
      Now who was to blame, was it the knife which is in most homes btw, or was in the slimey git that used the knife on my son, he is actually doing life for murder now btw.
      Knives are the weapon of choice in Glasgow, even in my own area there are people caught with knives all the time, hardly any of them go to prison.
      If i lived in america i would have a gun in my house i can assure you, you cannot control guns its impossible, that genie is well out of the bottle, young kids are killing each other all over the UK, and people think trump can stop shootings, its in american law that people are entitled to have guns, and that ain’t ever going to change not matter who the president is

    53. mr thms says:

      A striking, thought-provoking cartoon. It really should win an award.

    54. winifred mccartney says:

      Re Clare Balding – we will NEVER apologise for being Scottish. All she needed to say was thank goodness the Scots are representing GB but why be pleasant when you can be bossy, horrible and put someone down especially a Scot – Balding is a disgrace to herself and the BBC.

    55. Brilliant, Cairns.
      Imagine if there were 18 Dunblane incidents in Scotland since the turn of the year?
      Blair made sure that the Dunblane enquiry report was buried for 30 years?
      I wonder why?
      I have holidayed in America and have been more than aware of their psychopathic insistence of being able to bear arms.
      Armed cops everywhere.
      Asda is now owned by Walmart.
      I no longer shop there since the takeover.
      Imagine beimg able to buy an assault rifle with your bacon and eggs.
      God Help America.
      On the McLeish farce.
      It merely confirms that Scottish Football is a wee secret society clud like the Masons or the knights.
      This man came out as British not Scottish in 2014.
      In his retirement he has just been handed a seven figure bung to manage Scotland.
      I look forward to 6 Rangers Players in the Team.
      What a recipe for failure, which, I suspect, is why he took the job.
      I’ve not watched or supported the International Rugby Team since 2014 either.
      McLeish, the SFA, the Rugger Chaps are part of the Scottish Branch of the English Oligarchy.
      I’m only 70; ‘Gie’s ajob. I can do that’.
      An insult to the Tartan Army and Scotland.
      Will he be selling his Fulham house and moving to North Britain?

    56. TheWasp says:

      Balding was out of order, but for Rhona to apologise makes it worse. Maybe she was caught off guard but a wee pause first to gather her thoughts wouldn’t have gone amiss, then a bit of a come back or an uncoupling of the microphone and a walk off set, which I think most folk on here would have done, if I’m not mistaken.

    57. Morgatron says:

      I cant believe the utter pish that spouts from that insincere cow Balding. She is a total idiot spouting her GB jingo. As for the BBC coverage – well enough said.

    58. wullie says:

      just wait until the olympic mens slalom, there is one skier who might make the podium and secure a medal. Dave Riding who I hope does make the podium, he is a world class skier and has achieved top placements at World Cup level. Dave is from England and that is what we will have rammed down our throats.

    59. handclapping says:

      Not enough chins, otherwise excellent.

    60. galamcennalath says:

      Remember, Brextremists want to make the UK more like the US. Not saying guns, but the general free for all attitude. Small government, deil tak the hindmaist society. God help the poor, the vulnerable, and the unlucky.

    61. mr thms says:

      A peeved Clare Balding reminding Rhona Howie, herself an Olympic gold medallist, that “It’s the Olympics!” because she happened to refer to the mens curling team as ‘Scotland’, has to rank as one of the most conceited remarks ever uttered by a BBC presenter.

      All of Scotland’s 39 representatives should back Rhona and say ‘Scotland’, should an opportunity arise in a live interview.

      After all there are 59 members of ‘Team GB’, and Scotland provides two thirds of the team.

    62. louis.b.argyll says:

      The Scotland football manager appointment is so important we should have let the English FA choose a manager for us.

    63. Alastair says:

      Bob Mack says:
      17 February, 2018 at 9:09 am

      The guy has all the stability of an Ikea table.”

      Now that’s no fair Bob, I have had an IKEA dining room table for 15 years and it disnae wobble, its even moved house! Of course if you’d said an MFI table I would have been on board at once.

      If I learnt nothing else at school, I did get to know my tables.

    64. jfngw says:

      Balding is over rated, she wouldn’t look out of place as the gym teacher in a St Trinian’s film.

    65. louis.b.argyll says:

      Let’s start a campaign to remove Scotland’s FIFA status until after independence.

      Bread and circuses, foreign owned media, trumped up notions of grandeur, a sick feeling creeping across half our nation, the other half ignorant, sold out, money first, Scotland’s society relegated to regional status.

    66. Hamish100 says:

      Rhona Howie is a brit nat so to be told by her better not to be naughty her only response could but be “..sorry..”.

      On reflection maybe she would suggest to balding “I will call Scots Scots..” or maybe just “bugger off” would suffice.

    67. louis.b.argyll says:

      Claire Balding, establishment stooge, elevated to BBC mouthpiece, knows her place..and it is above Scotland.

    68. Hamish100 says:

      On bbc r4 Bertie Armstrong- “Scottish Fishermen Federation of brit nat and ulsterman fame.

      It will be brit fish only. Pack up your bags Scottish fishermen your fish are now brits to be fished by the good people of Engerlund. A whole 100%

    69. mike cassidy says:

      Trump has no problem with mentally ill people having guns.

    70. mike cassidy says:

      Rhona Howie.

      ” “I was being so careful not to as well,” says Howie. “Because they are really strict about Team GB. But then the camera turned round and there were two big Scottish flags in the crowd. Normally they ask for them to be taken down because it’s Team GB. So I saw that and thought: ‘oh, they are allowed to fly Scottish flags’. Then in my head I just blurted out Scotland… and Clare called it out, which is fine. I am glad she did. I was like: ‘oh sorry, yes, the British team’ “

    71. North chiel says:

      Well said “Dave Mcewan Hill @ 1107” , and I suppose Sir Alex Ferguson would be “ off the menu”
      ( not that he would be likely to come out of retirement now), for some posters, as he also was a “ better together” man in 2014

    72. Proud Cybernat says:

      Guy in the pub a while back, bursting with pride at being British. “We live in the greatest country in the world, d’yae know that?”

      AT first the hackles rose immediately and I was about to chuck a few barbs his way but then I thought, “No – just step back and listen to him. Try and understand what it is that he thinks is so compelling about the notion of ‘being British’ that he would vote in an IndyRef to remain ‘British’.”

      So I just sat and listened. There followed a litany of the respect Britain has because we have a royal family. We had Winston Churchill and we won two world wars. The greatest scientists and artists in the world EVER. The Beatles.

      The more it went on, the more fascinating the insight became. It’s almost like these people have been hynotised. It’s all historical, gooey-eyed, sentimentalist fluff which ultimately all boiled down to one thing, “We’re the greatest”. That’s it. To these people being British makes them he greatest people on the planet.

      I left with just one parting question for him to ponder. I finished my pint, walked over to him and asked. “Why do you want your country to be better than everyone else? Why can’t you just settle to be the equal of others? Wouldn’t that be good enough for you?”

      And left.

      Excellent ‘toon Chris even if just a tad scary!

    73. Cactus says:

      Meanwhile in another galaxy… (this side of oor pond).

      Substitute the Trump for the Theresa and change the ‘Nuclear Warning’ symbol for an ‘A50’ symbol… Alas! The two-fingered-tories have already pushed that destructive end of UK days button.

      The words remain the same (glaringly).

      Who’s smiling now?!

    74. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 08:48,

      Like Switzerland still does in effect to this day. “Well-regulated”, so there’s no succession of crazies going around blasting everybody they can find.

      I have always puzzled about that particular disconnect between right and practice in the US. It seems that virtually no Americans have actually ever read the words, let alone understood the meaning, of the 2nd Amendment.

      Which itself is a warning about muddling fundamental constitutional rights by artificially injecting arbitrary political policies of the day, however well-meaning they may seem at the time.

    75. ALANM says:

      Re. McLeish

      I agree with those who say the job should go to the best candidate irrespective of their views on independence. That said, I sometimes find myself wondering if our reliance down the years on players & managers with little or no pride or passion might go some way towards explaining our lack of success on the pitch.

      However let’s not forget that McLeish was part of that great Aberdeen side managed by Alex Ferguson which triumphed against all the odds in the European Cup Winners’ Cup in 1983 and so it would appear that the “cringe” doesn’t extend to club football.

      Talking of that Aberdeen team, brings to mind their clash with Bobby Robson’s high-flying Ipswich side in September 1981. The tv cameras had been given special access to the Ipswich dressing room for the return leg at Pittodrie which was unheard of back then. Robson’s last words to his players (which included a fairly sizeable Scottish contingent) before the match were “go out there and get stuck into these fuckin’ jocks.” Didn’t work though – his team lost 3-1 and exited the competition 4-2 on aggregate!

    76. David Mills says:

      What, the potential nuclear war days
      The doomsday clock currently at two minutes to midnight closer to armagedon than anytime since the 50’s

    77. Jason Lombard says:

      Having encountered a few of the US gun types I can say that they would be apoplectic at the idea the 2nd Amendment was to defend the government or even primarily for hunting. The primary reason they usually give is to ‘defend themselves against government tyranny’ – in most cases this is an innate fear of what they see as ‘socialism’. It seems extraordinary to us but a lot of minds have not changed since MacCarthy’s Red Scare. They’ll vote for a tub of lard if it’s pro-gun.

      They also hate the term ‘assault rifle’ as the Hughes amendment of the mid 80s banned all new manufacture of full auto weapons. However old ones were just grandfathered so can still be purchased and sold, if you can afford $20k upwards.

      Incedentally NI still allows purchase of handguns for target shooting and self defence (if your life is in danger from paramilitaries) – a used Glock 9mm will run you about £350!

    78. auld timer says:

      You might just have enough time to watch the old film Dr Strangelove before he presses the button.

    79. One_Scot says:

      Alex will kick Scotland in the nuts if he ever gets a better offer. He is only interested in looking after himself, nothing else.

    80. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic.BREXIT.
      Bloomberg on-line says:

      “European Doctors Are Giving Up on the U.K.
      Just under 3,500 registered to work in 2017, a 26 percent drop from 2014…….”

      This Tory Theresa May,Boris Johnson,Ruth Davidson and David Mundell policy of departing from the European Union is SO wrong in many many ways.

      Labour are also in a similar mindset as the Tories!

      Bloomberg article:

    81. Andy-B says:

      So the bench filler, Alex McLeish is now the new manager of the Scottish national football team. McLeish has already been the manager of the national team achieving nothing in the process.

      In my opinion, McLeish is in it for the money, he doesn’t even believe that Scotland should be a independent nation, let alone posses the ability to take the “national” team to a major finals.

      It’s a bit like Ruth Davidson becoming Scotland’s FM, she’d wax lyrical about how much she loves Scotland whilst achieving nothing for Scotland.

      The SFA, haven’t a clue.

    82. Highland Wifie says:

      To be honest I have never understood the love affair with Clare Balding. I have never warmed to her and always felt she was smug and overbearing as many establishment figures are. She is no stranger to controversy, coming under fire before for ill-judged comments. Rhona Howie should not shrink before this type of superiority complex. She has good reason to be proud of the fact that she’s Scottish.
      Apparently Balding is an eleven times great granddaughter of Oliver Cromwell. Make of that what you will.

    83. Effijy says:

      Claire Balding has made £Millions from BBC Contracts and all because she is fro the Toff Tory Sloan Ranger Horsie cabal.

      She doesn’t want Scots claiming control of their own resources or One’s chums would risk having to lay off some servants.

      Does anyone want to argue that you couldn’t find a few thousand pleasant and articulate presenters who could pick up the basic rules of Curling in an afternoon, and accept £99K Salary?

      Hate everything about the BBC and how they operate.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 17 February, 2018 at 11:52 am:

      “Then to top it off we have a BBC presenter continually qualifying the word Scotland or Scottish, over and over again, by saying ‘Scottish athlete, competing as team GB’. They cannot just say ‘Scottish athlete’.
      BBC british Nationalist propaganda, and Tory extremist, sectarian, racist bigotry. What a way to start Saturday.”

      Ach! Robert Louis, it is actually a great way to start a Saturday. Like many things it is a matter of how you look at things. So I’ll tell you how I look at things. As usual I’ll qualify that by saying I may be wrong but … and I’ll explain to you how I figure it out.

      The way I see it is that the Westminster Establishment is collectively shitting itself in abject fear that their tenure as The United Kingdom leadership is on its last legs. They know the truth is that the United Kingdom ends when one of the only two partner kingdoms calls, “Enough”, and departs. The union is over and what remains is the Status Quo Ante of two independent Kingdoms and not as the Westminster Establishment would have it, an independent Scotland and an rUnited Kingdom.

      The reason I believe that is due to reverse psychology.

      If the Establishment weren’t bothered about Scottish independence they wouldn’t go to such lengths and act as they do.

      Note that in their efforts to pretend they don’t care they only succeed in drawing attention to their fears.

      The more they fear the more they attempt to ignore anything and everything Scottish and the more apparent it becomes they are worried stiff. So the more they worry the more Scots become aware of their acute anxiety. Remember that we had an entire General Election to choose Westminster MPs and the Yoons spent the entire campaign claiming that Scots don’t want another referendum- what another referendum had to do with selecting members of the Westminster Parliament is anyone’s guess.

    85. gus1940 says:

      Coming to your local bookshop or Amazon the latest blockbuster -‘Theresa May’s Bumper Book of Slogans, Catchphrases, Lies,Buzzwords and Woffling Mindless Platitudes’.

    86. jfngw says:

      I could have sworn that it was reported that this weeks speech by May was going to lay out the foundations of her vision for Brexit. It was just another vacuous encounter with some statements about security co-operation, hardly the most groundbreaking area as lots of the EU are already members of NATO.

      Is anybody counting how many of these vision speeches have been announced to turn out to be just empty rhetoric.

    87. Returnofthemac says:

      Missed the Rhona howie comment. Not surprised balding called it out. Wouldn’t it have been nice if she had praised the Scottish curlers as indeed being Scottish first before making her all important point it’s team GB it’s team GB, GB. And you should know your place, No time for Balding.

    88. heedtracker says:

      Orange Hitler probably will have a hot “tactical” nuke war but the big issue for Scottish democracy, is just how hard the beeb gimp network’s going to use him for their Project Fear 2 campaigning.

      If anything displays just how hard core right the beeb gimp network is today, its their often shocking fawning and arse licking of Pres Trump.

    89. Rob James says:

      @ Jack Collatin

      I think you’ll find that the Dunblane Report was buried for 100 years, which is a longer period of time than that required for state secrets. It does make you wonder what was going on.

    90. One_Scot says:

      Rob, I was not aware of the 100 year ruling. I went on to find this,

    91. dakk says:

      Spoke to someone who met McLeiah in a restaurant in London a few months ago.Clapton or Clapham he now lives I think.

      This Celtic fan Yoon lady customer of mine took great delight in quoting him as saying he ‘ would never come back up the road’.

      Doesnt seem to fancy his old country much.

      Prepare for 2 years of failure.Hes just another Yoon using Scotland.

    92. mike cassidy says:

      Re Dunblane.

      Check here for the reply to an FOI request in 2014.

      Don’t have the relevant wordprocessing software to look at the reply.

    93. Nana says:

      Trump is a loathsome individual, Fox, Johnson, Gove, May and the rest are just as bad.

      Don’t know if this has been posted already

      Morning links on the previous thread.

    94. TheWasp says:

      Scotland employ a manager who hasn’t been in the game for donkeys years, lives in London, and doesn’t like his homeland, it’s a marriage made in Yoon heaven. At least I’ll not see the games as they are on sky sports, small mercies.

    95. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      North chiel at 2.10

      I wouldn’t presume that Alex Ferguson has anything other than a loyalty to Labour which he had when I knew him slightly when he was a player at Ibrox. With a shipyard background he had a trade union mindset but I suspect there is a strong possibility had he stayed in Scotland he would be on the other side by now on the independence question. He has a surprising amount of informed knowledge about the Irish Rebellion in 1916. He is a pretty sharp guy and he has done a lot of good community work.

    96. Brian McHugh says:

      If only the American’s had religion. :/

    97. Cactus says:

      Love Scotland Xx.

    98. ben madigan says:

      Further evidence in support of what Robert Peffers said “The union is over and what remains is the Status Quo Ante of two independent Kingdoms and not as the Westminster Establishment would have it, an independent Scotland and an rUnited Kingdom”.

      The government of the republic of ireland is putting out feelers to Unionists in northern ireland about a re-United ireland

      Senator Mark Daly is spearheading an effort by an Oireachtas (Irish parliament) committee to tease out what a reunited Ireland might look like in a post-Brexit world.

      As part of this effort, the committee has tasked itself with understanding and comprehensively addressing the fears unionists hold of a united Ireland.

    99. Cactus says:

      Basecamp Maryhill.

      Headin’ out soon.

      Downhill QMD.


      West end.



    100. smithie says:

      mike cassidy says:
      17 February, 2018 at 5:56 pm

      Re Dunblane.

      Check here for the reply to an FOI request in 2014.

      Don’t have the relevant wordprocessing software to look at the reply.

      Mike if you’re on Windows download this, its safe and legit and free.

    101. Robert Peffers says:

      I just noticed there has been nothing said yet except a very brief little mention on the BBC text service about this little news item that is now in The National:-

      The blanket blotting out of SNP news shows the abject fear slowly crippling the YoonYoonist mind-set. You can smell the Westminster fear here in Scotland all the way from the banks of the Thames.

      Here’s her Twitter thingy:-

    102. Robert Peffers says:

      It really is amazing that the third largest political party at Westminster is in the process of electing a new depute leader and there is virtually silence in the United Kingdom’s media.

      There is more news being shown about the UKIP’s Henry Bolton being sacked.

      For the record here is the current state of the Westminster parties:-

      Conservative 316
      Labour 259
      Scottish National Party 35
      Liberal Democrat 12
      Democratic Unionist Party 10
      Sinn Féin 6
      Independent 5
      Plaid Cymru 4
      Green Party 1
      Speaker 1
      Vacant 1
      Total number of seats 650

      So where on that list are UKIP?

    103. HandandShrimp says:

      Trump dances to the same old interest groups as every other administration. The only certainty is that there will be another gun massacre.

      Also hoping that the US National Security Agencies have fail safes on the red buttons.

    104. HandandShrimp says:

      To be fair Robert, the press know we will pick someone sensible and there will be a minimum of fuss.

      UKIP are a travelling sideshow in the PT Barnum tradition. There is so much back biting in UKIP that it makes for easy copy in a “he said she said” sort of way.

    105. Cactus says:

      Dumbarton Road.


      West end.



    106. K1 says:

      The only time gun laws in America will change is when some kid opens fire at one of the prestigious schools where members of the ruling classes children are studying.

      The rest of America’s kids can die in their thousands…when will America wake up to their own class ridden system instead of pretending they are a meritocracy? When Yoons realise they are arse lickers of those they perceive as their ‘betters’. Never gonnae happen.

    107. heedtracker says:

      Democratic Unionist Party 10

      Just think, each DUP MP cost £100+ million, to keep Strong and Stable tory gits in office. Giant bribes, all of which sold as completely normal UKOK politics in action, not flat out bribery, to a bunch of all kinds of DUP.

      Tory BBC gimpery calls it all a pact, a deal, not bribery.

      The price of keeping power
      Analysis by BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg

      The Tories now face a bumpy day of criticism, about how the DUP have been bought off – £100m for each of their ten votes in Parliament. The other devolved nations will cry foul.”

      DUP bigots now have more control over their Scotland region than any Scot.

    108. @ben madigan

      Always wondered, historically has Ireland ever been an independent united country ?

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @HandandShrimp says: 17 February, 2018 at 10:29 pm:

      “There is so much back biting in UKIP that it makes for easy copy in a “he said she said” sort of way.”

      Which is, basically, the actual point I was making, HandandShrimp.

      That is these scandal sheets and the Westminster controlled broadcasters claim to be newspapers and news broadcasters.

      If memory serves me well it is a written in clause of the Westminster granted broadcaster’s licence that they must all carry news and such things as party political broadcasts and government public announcements like health, weather and traffic safety warnings.

      ATM there seems to be a government blanket ban on anything about Scotland – except of course SNP/Scotland BAAAAD! items.

      Now I’m not at all displeased by their actions – as I said up-thread to me it signifies they are in virtual panic mode and people in panic mode make very bad decisions. The Westminster Establishment are, to all intent and purposes, presently in self-destruct mode.

      It seems to me the logical outcome must be the break up of the United Kingdom, (that is the parting of the two kingdoms), but it also looks very likely that the Kingdom of England is also about to begin splitting up. That is the unification of Ireland sees the ending of the, “Crown of Ireland Act”, that saw the English Kingdom annex Ireland.

    110. Cactus says:




      Keep lovin’.

      Tis ra only one true emotion.

      EMOTION Scotland.

    111. Terry says:

      I love wings

    112. Cactus says:

      Terry aye ur ma kinda yuy….

      Love Scotland.



    113. Bill not Ben says:

      The doomsday clock. ha ha ha, the fecking doomsday clock is ticking the moment your born, and who the hell want’s to live forever anyway, the doomesday clock lol

    114. frogesque says:

      @Cactus 11.51

      Stay safe pilgrim and have a braw night.

    115. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bill not Ben says: 17 February, 2018 at 11:52 pm

      “and who the hell want’s to live forever anyway, the doomesday clock lol”

      That clock you are listening to is not the Doomsday clock, Bill not Ben, it isn’t the clock in the Elizabeth Tower, (Big Ben), either as that is being renovated just now.

      I think it must be the count-down alarm for the end of the United Kingdom.

      The only question now is, does the United Kingdom end before or after the Kingdom of England loses Northern Ireland to Irish unification?

    116. Cactus says:

      Salt n sauce.

      Freedom is soon…

    117. Cactus says:

      You look gorgeous.



    118. North chiel says:

      Re “ Dave Mcewan Hill@ 0801pm” , interesting comment sir, undoubtedly some prominent people ( including sporting icons) May well consider changing from “no” to “ Yes” for Indyref 2. Here’s hoping anyway , a trickle can eventually lead to a flood and could win the day for our country.

    119. Cactus says:

      Aye can hear ra sweet sounds of ra River Kelvin…

      A flowin’ thru Glasgow.

      Deep down.

      Love yerself!

    120. cearc says:

      A fine, starry, starry night here.
      Have fun in bonnie Glasgow, Cactus.

    121. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 12.24

      Salt n sauce ???
      Are ye sure yer in Glasgow!

    122. Cactus says:

      Ra road is long.. though many a windin’ turn.

      Ahm wearing ma Wings hat on ma head.

      Maryhill HOME soon.

      Don’t give a fuck.



    123. yesindyref2 says:

      That Clare Balding putting Rhona Howie in her place is on youtube:

      Never did like Clare Balding anyway, she thinks she’s more important then her guests, whereas she’s a nobody. Fairly typical for BBC presenters “I’m the BBC”.

    124. Grouse Beater says:

      How to stop a crazy man from pushing the red button, Chris, that’s the question. Do you pronounce him unhinged and have him removed, or push him under a bus?

      Your essential weekend reading:

      Don Roberto, nationalist pioneer:
      A review of ‘The Shape of Water’:

    125. Arthur Martin says:

      @ ben madigan 09.00
      Thanks for the link, an interesting read. This highlights a concern of mine if the timings of the break up of the UK are in the order of the reunification of Ireland first, then an Independent Scotland following thereafter. The 18% of Unionists in Northern Ireland that will never accept the reunification of Ireland are described as the “fight or flight” group. If a large number of them choose to leave, and if from what I understand there is already a vanguard settled around Ayrshire and the South West of Scotland area, then Scotland may be their preferred region of the UK to move to and live in.
      They will all then be eligible for a vote in the next Scottish Independence Referendum and its pretty much a forgone conclusion that they will vote to retain the Union between Scotland & England. This is in my opinion is another reason why the timing of the next Indyref will be crucial. Lets hope that Scotland wakes up to the realities of Brexit and takes the only sensible course of action available to us before the situation in Ireland develops as predicted.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      What a disgusting article that is in the Guardian. Even the claim of 0.2% seems to be wrong. And that sneer “Around 10% claim to understand it to some degree (perhaps just a few phrases)” belongs more below the line in the Express. From 2015, this article claims 2%, no idea of the political orientation of the Belfast Telegraph:

      Glad I don’t read the Guardian online any more, it’s the pits.

    127. galamcennalath says:

      Arthur Martin says:

      Scotland may be their preferred region of the UK to move to

      … and they will be encouraged to so do by every other BritNat group. It will be seen as easing to problems for UKOK … allowing NI BritNats to retain their precious Britnattery and sabotaging Scottish aspirations. A win win for BritNatdom.

      There are many advantages in holding the two referendums concurrently. One would definitely be that if Scotland remains in Union then we could be flooded by some of the more unpleasant elements of NI society!

    128. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Rhona Howie (Martin) is a lovely lady, who I have had the pleasure of meeting on a few occasions. I was, for instance, one of a hanful of journalists at the welcome home evening for the curling team at Greenacres – their home rink – in 2002.

      Rhona is from a well-off Scottish Tory family. I do not know, but, I suspect given her bacground and upbringing, that Rhona was a No voter in 2014.

      The reality is, Rhona knows full-well the curlers are Scottish wearing, once every four years, Team GB kit.

      I find it disgraceful that a jumped-up, over-promoted “personality” such as Clare Balding should be allowed to talk down to a genuine national sporting icon.

      Rhona Howie is more of a lady than Balding, for all her alleged royal connections via her father once being a trainer to HM the Queen, will ever be.

      Rhona Howie has Class, Clare Balding none.

    129. mike cassidy says:

      Re Northern Ireland

      Here’s what some people from Northern Ireland resident in Scotland were thinking at the time of the referendum.

    130. Nana says:

      Stormont deadlock: Sinn Féin to meet Theresa May

      Last links for a while, I’m taking a break.

    131. Old Pete says:

      The Labour councillor who came first William Crawford in Cumnock and New Cumnock puts the Orange Order as one of his named interests.
      It’s time the Scottish parliament banned all sectarian organizations and we could be rid of this vermin before they are supplemented by a flood of loyalist fanatics from NI. We need the next referendum before this happens or the fight for Independence will be lost.

    132. John Thomson says:

      Ruth appearing on Peston on Sunday shortly

    133. TheWasp says:

      tRuthless is now the new princess Diana, the queen of minefields. I wonder if she was actually clearing them instead of getting on with the day job?

    134. Fireproofjim says:

      Although Ayrshire may attract a few diehard Orange Unionists in the event of a United Ireland, I can’t see a mass emigration in numbers enough to affect any Scottish referendum.
      Most Unionists are reasonably prosperous in Ulster and have family ties and own property there. Would you give all that up at the behest of a few fanatics to start again in Scotland?
      A united Ireland will be a pretty attractive place to be – in the EU and away from Westminster’s follies, – and I am sure Dublin will do everything possible to make the Unionists happy.

    135. Fireproofjim says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.
      Enjoy your well deserved break.

    136. louis.b.argyll says:

      Re Oxfam executives dirty cover-ups/BBC BIAS.

      Did the Tories cut the BBC’s funding after MANY of it’s staff were found guilty of disgusting behaviour and high-level corruption.

      Absurdly, Nick Robinson thinks that-

      The BBC INVENTED..

      The Samba/Tango/Foxtrot etc.

      Animals, and natural history.

      Glastonbury and classical music.

      The guy is a political activist,
      a disguised excuse for a journalist,
      an uncultured professional TORY,
      who HATES anyone he sees as beneath him.

    137. louis.b.argyll says:


      Haste ye back.

    138. Hamish100 says:

      On tele Peston Geek of the Week.

      How many universities in Italy, France, Spain, Scotland, England since their formation to today.
      The presenter ignores Scotland entirely and so does the geek of the week another tory geek.

      Oops have I missed Ruth Davidson! Apparently she is on? Or is that arse of the week?

    139. Robert Peffers says:

      @louis.b.argyll says: 18 February, 2018 at 10:29 am:

      Re Nick Robinson:-

      “The guy is a political activist,
      a disguised excuse for a journalist,
      an uncultured professional TORY,
      who HATES anyone he sees as beneath him.”

      Small correction – “Nick Robinson hates anyone he sees as beneath him. should read, Nick Robinson hates everyone and sees everyone as beneath him.

    140. John H. says:

      If you feel like having your stomach well and truly churned this morning, then tune your radio in to LBC where Jacob Rees-Mogg is standing in for Farage. I couldn’t listen to much of it, but from what I heard the people phoning in are all Brexit supporters. The amount of grovelling going on to this man is embarrassing. A wonderful man, should be P.M. etc. with Rees-Mogg purring his appreciation in his self-satisfied patrician tones.

      It seems that some people down there really want to go back to the eighteenth century, as long as their overlords are English.

    141. heedtracker says:

      It seems that some people down there really want to go back to the eighteenth century, as long as their overlords are English.

      Same overlords are available for listening to on the vote tory or else show,

      Jonathan Dimbleby presents political debate from Nairn Community & Arts Centre in Scotland with a panel including the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation Bertie Armstrong, Scottish National Party MP Joanna Cherry, Conservative MEP author and columnist Dan Hannan and the leader of the Scottish Labour Party Richard Leonard.

      If you’d like to hear a nice display of how toryboy’s lie flat out, its a nice example.

      Dan Hannan for example explains clearly/blatantly lies about how the EU caused depletion and near extinction of UK fish stocks.

      Bertie A explains/blatantly lies about how Scottish fishermen are going to be just like Icelandic fisherman and will get to keep 90% of all UK fish stocks with Brexit.

      Another day of beeb gimp attack propaganda for sure but even so, toryboy’s certainly are unscrupulous pricks.

      Also, Leonard nobody probably isn’t the SLabour messiah…

    142. winifred mccartney says:

      Thank you Nana for all you do – have a great break.

      RD on Peston saw about 30 secs of her ‘uninterrupted statement’ and in that time she told 2 blatant lies – the Northern Ireland border has been settled and the transition deal. Would she like to tell Tereeza and Arlene that.

    143. Capella says:

      Happy holiday Nana and look forward to your return. I’ve been offline for a couple of weeks as my gadgets all went kaput at once. A wee break is good for you!

    144. Bill Hume says:

      I want my Nana…….Charlie Sim. (Yes I am old enough to remember that).

    145. Marie Clark says:

      Nana, many thanks for the links, taking a wee while to get through them all.

      Take it easy and enjoy your wee break.

    146. CageyBee says:

      Nana says:
      18 February, 2018 at 9:29 am
      And we are working directly with our 2,400 volunteers in our nationwide Experience Panels
      I have been a member of one of these panels and to me it is like a breath of freh air compared to how the claiming and assesment process wa before the Scottish Government are taking a very considered and considerate approach to this whole thing . As far as I am aware NO government has ever consulted with those directly affected by new legislation prior to it being implemented.
      If only we could get all powers devolved but we are all (foreby the trolls) working towards that goal. Thanks for everythig as always Nana

    147. louis.b.argyll says:

      Thanks Robert,

      “Nick Robinson hates anyone he sees as beneath him. should read, Nick Robinson hates everyone and sees everyone as beneath him.’

      If I can add..

      Whether, a majority of BBC viewers

      are finally seeing through eg Robinson,

      Peston, Dimbleby, Neil, Paxman, Portillo,

      (Grub) etc, is unlikely judging by the way

      Middle-England and the ignorant fringes

      lap up the right-wing supremacy jargon.

      The BBC fronts-up the scheming against,

      and the stereotyping of, EVERYTHING else

      except UK/England’s oppressive,

      cultish, still-medieval Establishment,


      Robinson thinks ‘Strictly’ is a great

      British export- it’s a fucking light-

      entertainment show, stuff people do in-

      between the shit jobs they suffer due to

      prick Tories like Nick.

    148. starlaw says:

      Fireproof Jim 10.16

      Totally agree, Hardline Unionists will not be pouring over here there is nothing here for them.
      The entire basis for their existence is embedded in Boyne Water and their bonfires. Ulster Orangemen who are here return to their roots in Ulster every July to carry out their Medieval Nonsense.
      And as you point out they will be better off in a United Ireland, more chance of those already here going home, or did they come here to escape what passes for normality in their former back yards.

    149. Macart says:


      It was basically one long sneer at other peoples culture. Pretty disgusting top to toe. The Ramsay piece over on Open Democracy was bang on the money.

      And no, I don’t regret leaving the Guardian behind either.

    150. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic. For Newbies and Weekenders to Wings over Scotland.Welcome. 🙂

      Here is a new Truly Scottish TV on-line.

      “Hello and welcome.

      We’re a small band of amateur Broadcasters.

      Our aim is to broadcast a Positive Scotland to the world.

      Coming soon – We’ll be broadcasting News/Politics/Sport and weather.

      To support us, simply drop-by each day and watch at least 1 programme.

      ?Thank you.”

      There are links at top of their Main Page. 🙂

    151. Scott says:

      Well,well Peston can get Davidson on his show but BBC Scotland TV&Radio can’t I wonder why and whats this about NI border being settled and Peston let her off with that.
      A waste of space she is.

      PS I see that Leonard has a small piece in the SP saying he apologised for his parties battle with female workers over equal pay.
      Many equal pay claims were settled under Labour in Glasgow he says so why the long drawn out legal battle.

    152. Footsoldier says:

      My biggest concern of the lot is that the Unionists continue on the attack all the time relentlessly and never give up especially as there are plenty of other things for them to worry about.

      What are we doing on the independence side – nothing. We are thinking about things, waiting for the right moment and do very little attacking or rebuttal. The SNP is shedding members, their once formidable army of well co-ordinated foot soldiers is somewhat depleted and demoralised. Our well motivated Yes army lacks co-ordination and hand it to the Unionists; their plans against Scottish independence seem to be going quite well.

      Everything now is on the constitution and Brexit. Try some canvassing. As an SNP member I find lots of questions on the doorstep that arose in the 2014 referendum and a full 3 years on we still have no answers. It’s simply not good enough to lie low while we plan and think.

    153. heedtracker says:

      Have a great break Nana! what are we going to do without your links.

      BBC Scotland cost Scots over 300 million smackers, to tell us how awful we are and just how awful Scottish democracy really really UKOK is. Scottish democracy is very very awful, says 300+ million bbc sovs.

      but just one link from Nana…

      This just in. BBC Scotland only “spend” a third of Scotland’s licence fee on Scotland, the rest goes to Clare Balding, to tell Scots be quiet, you’re British.

      Great VFM, UKOK style:D

    154. Macart says:


      Take care Nana and enjoy the break. 🙂

    155. McDuff says:

      Footsoldier 12.15pk

      Spot on. Complacency has been allowed to set in and all that passion of’14 has dissipated.
      You are correct , whre are the answers for the doorstep?

    156. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      “Where are the answers?”



      Just two examples…

    157. Nana says:

      Thanks folks, as the terminator said “I’ll be back”

      and these are definitely the last for now 🙂

      EU citizens in the UK, The impact of Brexit

    158. yesindyref2 says:

      @Socrates MacSporran
      I think Howie got the better of Balding by saying “Sorry”. An apology from her highlighted that the presenter made her guest uncomfortable – Howie wins, Balding loses.

      I did like Balding doing the horse racing on the few times I used to watch, that was more her genre. She rose to her level of incompetence.

    159. heedtracker says:

      Thanks folks, as the terminator said “I’ll be back”

      He also said, “If you want to live, come with me.”

      Does Scotland want to live, or be governed by abject tory shits, for another generation?

    160. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Footsoldier at 12.15

      We had all the answers in 2014 but we didn’t and don’t have the media. This is still the case. Those who imagine we will win independence by “having all the answers” are deluding themselves.
      We will find ourselves again bogged down in a maze of answering fake unionist questions without the armoury to fire back.
      “All the answers” is the chosen battleground of the unionists.

    161. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 18 February, 2018 at 12:15 pm:

      “My biggest concern of the lot is that the Unionists continue on the attack all the time relentlessly and never give up especially as there are plenty of other things for them to worry about.”

      Aye! But! Aiblins yon’s why you sing yersel as, “Footsoldier”, and Nicola Sturgeon sins herself iz the Scottish FM.
      (Owersettin intil the Inglis – Aiblins = perhaps or possibly).

      It is the foot soldiers lot to do or die and the leaders lot to reason why:-

      “Forward, the Light Brigade!”
      Was there a man dismayed?
      Not though the soldier knew
      Someone had blundered.
      Theirs not to make reply,
      Theirs not to reason why,
      Theirs but to do and die.
      Into the valley of Death
      Rode the six hundred..

      (apology to Alfred Lord Tennyson).

      Obviously you have not quite thought the matter through properly, Footsoldier.

      Look at things from the point of view of the leader, (and her host of expert advisors), as the political tactician leading Scottish independence.

      There is an ever increasing campaign waged by the Westminster Establishment, (and that Establishment includes far more than just the HOC & HOL), the most apparent lot among them are the London Financial Sector and the Westminster controlled media that includes their representatives right here in Scotland.

      From their point of view there is very good reason for that campaign being of an ever increasing and on-going nature – it is simply failing to be as effective as The Establishment had hoped. In fact it has increased to such a point that even former unaware of political events Scots are awakening to the fact they have been fooled and taken in by centuries of Westminster propaganda.

      This last fact shows as a slow but steady move of opinion polls towards Scottish independence and Westminster has only two alternatives – step up the all too obvious anti-Scottish/SNP/SG rhetoric or drop the anti-Scottish campaign. The point being that their campaign is back-firing on Westminster and it is their anti-Scottishness, and not any extra activity by the SG/SNP that is winning over former Britnats to the indy movement.

      Factually more battles are lost by wrongly timed attacks than are lost by having inferior numbers of inferior weapons. Let’s face it Westminster has both superior numbers and superior armaments than has the SNP/SG yet there is a slow but steady increase in those who now support Scottish independence.

      Now, though, we can factor in a few other things that are in our favour. BRUKEXIT has opened up two other fronts that mean the Westminster forces are now fighting on several fronts and cannot thus concentrate fully upon Scotland and independence. Westminster is making mistakes.

      BRUKEXIT has had several secondary fronts for Westminster to fight on besides just simply leaving Europe. First there is the growing threat of a united Ireland and that can only result in the return of Northern Ireland to the former Kingdom of Ireland that is already a Republic and republics cannot be part of a Kingdom.

      Then there is the Gibraltar problem which could have several different outcomes not the least of which would be a Gibraltar return to Spain or to an independent part of the EU. Not to mention the hardly reported in the UK media coming events of secret Commonwealth talks on who should succeed Elizabeth Regina as Commonwealth Head and several Commonwealth countries are already teetering on the brink of ditching the monarchy altogether and the Brexateers were counting upon easy trade deals with former United Kingdom colonies.

      It really isn’t a big step for Commonwealth countries to simply become fully independent. After all the United Kingdom ditched all of them when it joined the European Union.

      Then there are such as China, Japan and the ever rising Eastern powers who will look at things as a choice of doing trade deals with either the EU, (the largest Trading bloc), or, forming an Eastern trading bloc among themselves or the USA that has been declining of late.

      The whole BRUKEXIT thing is potentially the biggest threat that Westminster has ever faced and that includes two World Wars.

      Yet you claim, ““It’s simply not good enough to lie low while we plan and think.”

      Just which side is it you are really on, Footsoldier?

      The one moving inexorably towards independence as shown by opinion polls or the one inexorably losing support on all fronts as it battles away on several different but linked fronts and looking increasingly like losing on all battlefronts?

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @myself:02:05 pm.

      Oops! I messed up my HTML and bolded far too much of the post. Sorry!

    163. Hamish100 says:

      indyref 2

      Howie lost. She apologised when she had no need to. Howie is paid by the bbc and is pro unionist so obviously felt she had to demonstrate her Cringe. Balding is overrated but her partner works in the BBC I believe so that helps with contacts
      bbc so interested in curling that they didn’t even bother to report on uk “national” news that the European championship was won by Scotland s women recently. Of course cricket was more important.

    164. Cactus says:

      Good afternoon fine Wingers. Mini adventures are fun when accompanied by ra tiny bubbles. The next guided tour begins in six days hehe 🙂

      That Clare Balding fellar could very easily morph into that Ruth Davidson fellar and then again into that Lord Charles dummy.

      Dummies the lot of them (plus the one at the top).

    165. yesindyref2 says:

      Depends how you look at it. Technically Balding was right, but if Howie had argued or anything she would have looked like a dick. As it was her “sorry” highlights Balding as being the dick, and kind of draws attention to Balding’s pettiness, and self-importance.

    166. HandandShrimp says:

      On the Moog

      For those that missed Rachael Parris’s Mash Report on the bounder

    167. mike cassidy says:

      Scotsman happy to reproduce chunks of Davidson’s interview this morning

      including her ‘sticking up for Scotland’ nonsense.

      Re Howie and Balding

      I drew attention further up the thread to Howie’s comment on the incident from a Scotsman interview.

      ” “I was being so careful not to as well,” says Howie. “Because they are really strict about Team GB. But then the camera turned round and there were two big Scottish flags in the crowd. Normally they ask for them to be taken down because it’s Team GB. So I saw that and thought: ‘oh, they are allowed to fly Scottish flags’. Then in my head I just blurted out Scotland… and Clare called it out, which is fine. I am glad she did. I was like: ‘oh sorry, yes, the British team’ “

      She was happy to be admonished!

    168. Hamish100 says:


      I agree with mike Cassidy. Scots are Scots. is Team GB a new country in the UN?

    169. ben madigan says:

      In reply to Scot Finlayson who asked

      “Always wondered, historically has Ireland ever been an independent united country ?”

      yes for many centuries, ireland was traditionally a grouping of clans/geographical areas, each with their own leader under an Ard Rì (High king).
      Like Scotland, ireland fought off English encroachment, conquest and attempts at pacification for 800 years. Indeed one of the cries of irish prisoners throughout the ages was that they were political prisoners, not criminals.

      Modern irish republicanism was born out of the American and french revolutions in the late 18th century. The 1800 Act of Union with GB annexed ireland and abolished her parliament,
      (much as the 1707 Act did for Scotland).

    170. auld highlander says:

      Yesterday I saw a guy in a jimmy hat and a brief flash of a Saltire hanging over the barrier at the end of the run, possibly on one of those fancy sledge runs but I can’t really remember .
      Their editor must have been sleeping to let that pass by.

    171. yesindyref2 says:

      @mike cassidy
      Like that article. Howie: “We represent Scotland at every championship we go to and then all of a sudden it is Britain, which is fantastic for the players but the commentators suffer…”

      Howie’s taking the piss in a very gentle way 🙂

      As the article says: “that had anchor Clare Balding spluttering out a correction”.

      Like I said, Howie won by a country mile.

    172. Dr Jim says:

      God forbid anyone was to upset the English’s GBness by having any Scottish people in it,even by mistake, Christ! I’ll give them mistake!

      Am I the only one who sees that for what it is

      A big fat display of racist domination *get back in your place we are the British you little nobody Jock squirt*

      And folk are apologising because technically TECHNICALLY!!
      Are you people kidding?!?! Is that what it’s come to now apologising for saying the word Scottish in the wrong place
      so’s not to offend the bloody English, get a flaming grip here nobody committed a murder or a rape or even harmed a fly

      Do we have to look away or down when our masters pass by now or move off the pavement to give them room to kick the fucking shit out of us if they’d like because we’ve seen that before somewhere else

      In order to stop people bullying us some people might think about not apologising for existing in the first place,

      (abused wife syndrome)

    173. Niall Whyte says:

      Off Topic: Q: Should Scotland be Independent

      I would be very grateful if some of you could look at the debate across on Kialo regarding Scottish Independence. At the moment one or two enthusiastic Unionist or pro-Union contributors seem to be running the show. They’re using tired old arguments that need to be refuted. If you feel inclined, please pop over and put some meat on the bones for Scottish Independence.


    174. bjsalba says:


      Keeping ones powder dry and waiting till you see the whites of their eyes are good tactics. Shooting off early loses the campaign.

      There are a lot of people out there who have not a clue about what is going on because they do not follow politics. Until the situation as regards the disaster that is Brexit is right up close in their faces any move is premature.

    175. Dr Jim says:

      Two hours of missing posts

    176. galamcennalath says:

      Re “having all the answers”

      Yes we need to have answers, but we shouldn’t run a campaign which revolves around responding to BritNat badgering with questions. They mustn’t be allowed to set the agenda. We must be primarily proactive.

      In 2014 there was a certain inevitability that when it started as a proposion i.e. independence, that this would be challenged. The status quo was well establish and would never have undergone the same questioning. (Although the Vow could have given the opportunity for attack rather than defence)

      For IndyRef2 we must go all out to question, criticise, dismantle, destroy the BritNat proposition of their hard Brexit. We should be the ones on the attack.

      Yes, the BritNats and their media will ask questions of our side, but any answer should be laced with counter points about where the UK would take us. We can set the framing and present independence as the safer option. Brexitised UK must be hammered as the disaster it will be. Indy must be seen as positive, a salvation, an escape, a solution, stability, and putting wrongs to right.

    177. galamcennalath says:

      ben madigan says:

      Modern irish republicanism was born out of the American and french revolutions

      Indeed. And of course those revolutions utterly terrified the UK Establishment.

    178. galamcennalath says:

      Re the Balding incident

      Don’t know if anyone else has pointed this out, probably.

      How many times have sports commentators or competitors said England when they meant, or should said, UK?

      Also, the inverse. I seem to remember some England competitors sporting Butcher’s Aprons as part of their equipment at the Commonwealth games. Was it cyclists helmets, perhaps? Was that ‘stood on’?

      Of course we all know it’s about denying, when and wherever possible, any Scotland reference or symbol. They are trying to hide Scottishness, eradicate it from consciousness even.

    179. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 14:04,

      There has to be an economic answer, since the BritNats will inevitably try to stir up another “pea-souper” over that issue again. And we need to be able to blow it away.

      However, you are right, trying to field all the nit-picking distrations they raise, assisted by all the convenient thinktanks the BBC can conjure out of the woodwork, is a fools’ errand. Playing their games, always on the back foot, won’t do the job.

      I believe the counter to that is to have an arsenal of examples of other small countries who are doing very well, thank you very much. Have our own media folks going to these places and doing interviews there with local economists and vox-pops with locals who will naturally all poo-pooh the notion of giving up their hard-earned independence to anyone else.

      It’s all too easy for the MSM here to find negative vox-pops from unimaginative people here without a clue. The result is (deliberately) depressing and disengaging. UK-based thinktanks are rarely if even truly dispassionate and neutral.

      That’s the answer to this one. Don’t get embedded in fine-grain economic discussions to which a potential scare cloud can always be easily attached. Instead use positive examples from elsewhere that demonstrate to ordinary folks that this is do-able without having to worry about all the grisly detail.

      When folks say they “need more facts”, they don’t really mean it. They drowned in them last time. What they really want is reassurance.

      What we could do with is a “yellow book” (say!) containing a bunch of examples of how other comparable small European countries manage to do very well. Rather like that short series that The National ran some time back, but with perhaps a little more depth.

      Leading by example in a way that people can readily comprehend.

    180. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 18:11,

      Oops, that should be “rarely if ever”.

      (Keys not even close, and can’t blame predictive text either. Huh.)

    181. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers comments 2.05pm
      Pretty much shows the problem I outlined.

    182. Dr Jim says:

      The Scottish curling team are there representing Team GB, and Clare Balding was being an obnoxious Britnat and anyone who mutters about technicalities is as bad as her and her British Nationalist mates for even thinking about cringing over this

      There should be no apologies for using the word Scotland or Scottish anytime anywhere, GB is as far as I’m aware not a Nationality and never has been one

      What happened there was English Nationalism being bossy and every time we hear it it should be slapped down hard and not apologise for mentioning who we are

      As one of the Nations of the UK our athletes are invited to take part to represent the team GB it’s not for some jumped up presenter to inform us who we’ve not to be or what we can say or not say

      We’re a Nation, not tools for the English to use to promote their Britishness then tell us to shut up about being Scottish

      That applies to the Welsh as well, get these idiots telt

      This is not anti English, it’s anti Arsehole

    183. Giving Goose says:

      Re galamcennalath

      It’s also about keeping a lid on Englishness.
      If England starts to emerge as an entity alongside Scotland (and Wales, N Ireland), then events will unfold very quickly.

      Hence it makes sense to refer to “Great Britain”.

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Indeed. It was things like that on the BBC was a large part of why I took to supporting Independence in 1972. However, consider this possibility. Balding has previous, and so does the BBC, and perhaps Howie has noticed the BBC slant, and said what she said to needle Balding. Balding took the bait and as the Scotsman article said: “that had anchor Clare Balding spluttering out a correction”. Job done, move on.

      Quite a coincidence Howie being interviewed by the Scotsman shortly after …

    185. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 18:08,

      I’ve never seen anyone taken to task on TV over using “England” inappropriately. Maybe it has happened sometime somewhere. Has anyone?

      I even saw an example last summer of a commentator on the Eurosport channel using “England” inappropriately in front of a Scot, and nary a word was said about it, largely out of deferential politeness, it seems.

      All this “Britain First” stuff is a sign of the times. As with that blog calling-out The Graun to which indyref2 linked upthread (for which thanks!). The English Establishment, including its supposed liberal-left wing, is seriously rattled by indy and Brexit. And being exposed for the control-freak neo-colonialism at its heart.

      As RP mentioned upthread, this increased brittleness is a tell-tale sign of BritNat insecurity. (Not that this has necessarily helped as much as it ought.)

      There used to be a time when Unionism was confident and could support – even foster – a considerable degree of cultural diversity. That’s what kept the Union together and alive, in fact. As I mentioned in a post in an earlier thread, a confident Union would have developed a vigorous new constitutional re-arrangement by now. Smith was the last-chance saloon, and now the bar is cobwebbed and empty.

      Instead, now it has to be “England (disguised) First”. Which is why the Union is doomed. And why we have to make our move to break away soon, before the cultural and political suppression really starts to bite. As it surely will if we just sit back and let it all go down.

    186. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert Peffers @ 14.05

      What opinion polls are you referring to? Support for independence is declining currently is it not?

    187. Les Wilson says:

      The latest musings of Gordon Ross

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      Can’t take the credit, it was the great Macart who linked that one. But people aren’t thick, it’s not just Indy supporters who notice, and the more the media panic, the more it’ll upset people who aren’t involved, and they’ll react. Gently gently, catchee monkee. We just keep poking the skunk and stand back and watch it emitting foul smells 🙂

      I think, don’t know, but think, there’s a few pro-indy subversives around, not naming any of them of course. It’s not what they say, it’s the way they say it.

    189. galamcennalath says:

      Giving Goose says:

      It’s also about keeping a lid on Englishness.
      If England starts to emerge as an entity

      Yes, you’re right. They want to control Englishness carefully. Part of that will intentionally be muddling the meaning of England and UK. They don’t want English folks to start consciously to think about England first. That is the reality, as all non English citizens know. However it would be very ackward if English voters started to genuinely shout … “let Scotland and NI go their own way”.

      The Greater England model is the one the Establishment want to retain.

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      Support for independence is declining currently is it not?

      In your skidmarks it is.

    191. Dr Jim says:

      You’ll notice anything to do with Wales goes unnoticed or considered quaint even though the Welsh folk I know totally despise them a whole hell of a lot while they smile take their money and speak in Welsh in front of them

      See there’s no threat from Wales to the Brit economy but without Scotland there is no Brit economy and Lil ol England has to subsidise Wales and Norn Ireland on its own

      That would really really hurt

    192. Gfaetheblock says:

      yesindyref2 @ 19.01

      There is a theme on this website that we deal in facts, with references.

      Primary school insults generally only make the person using them look infantile.

    193. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Some years ago during a quiz on a cruise I was on, Daley Thompson was accepted as the correct answer to the question: “Who won the Decathlon gold medal for England at the 198 Olympic Games?”

      When I pointed-out, the correct answer was: “Nobody”, since England does not compete in the Olympic Games, and that Thompson (English-born of a Scottish mother and a Nigerian father) was competing for “Team GB” the official Olympic tam of the International Olympic Committee of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, well, all Hell broke loose.

      Suddenly, I was a Chippy Jock; everyone knew England and Team GB/the UK was one and the same. I was marked down as a trouble-maker for the remainder of the cruise.

      England first, last and always is their credo – and they don’t know they’r doing it.

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s nice dear. “we deal in facts” – when are you going to start?

    195. Macart says:

      Heh. Life comes at you fast right enough.

    196. Gfaetheblock says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17.39

      Misogyny as well, nice.

      I provided a link to dozens of opionion polls, which show a clear trend since the Indy ref. These are facts that mr peffers seems unaware of, I was wondering if he knew of other polls that showed the opposite.

      Data and facts, not assertion or abuse.

    197. call me dave says:

      @Socrates MacSporran

      Excellent. 🙂

      On a quiz show in the middle of the week where contestants had to name the first 10 European countries in alphabetical order and France had already been named at No 10.
      A contestant said ‘England’ and was marked wrong by Bradley Walsh? So you see there is no such country.

      Apparently they(England) go as we do under the ‘UK’ much consternation ensued. Funny old world init!

      Watching the golf from America on PC stream here on a well known provider and Scottish commentator Ewen is suffering from Shakespeare syndrome.

      He can’t bring himself to mention Martin Laird then lying 6th as he goes through the leading scores on screen having made 3 birdies in his first 5 holes.

      The word ‘Scottish play’ is beyond him and the cringe is strong.

      Happens every weekend… I’m used to it all.

      As I said on Friday 4 countries pretending to be one I don’t watch the Olympics.

    198. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. James Cook does some good stuff. Interesting tweet from Chris Law (Shadow SNP Spokesperson (International Development) on that thread:

      Just returned from EU Common Security and Defence Delegating n in Bulgaria last night & EU welcomes UK’s future cooperation and will continue to have delegates. I look forward to returning

      Glad to see he’s taking an interest.

    199. stewartb says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 6:38 pm

      You write: “There used to be a time when Unionism was confident and could support – even foster – a considerable degree of cultural diversity. That’s what kept the Union together and alive, in fact. As I mentioned in a post in an earlier thread, a confident Union would have developed a vigorous new constitutional re-arrangement by now. Smith was the last-chance saloon, and now the bar is cobwebbed and empty.”

      Well OK, up to a point. There used to be a time, over a large part of the last century, when it was only a small minority of folk in Scotland who questioned – even thought about – being part of a ‘Union’. They just were ‘British’ and ‘Scottish’, nothing difficult about it.

      Unionism didn’t need to be ‘confident’, the status quo was hardly challenged. I was born, brought up and then lived contentedly in that environment until, personally, the mid 70’s. Even then, the need for Unionism to be ‘confident’ was limited – devolution, even though it took a long time to deliver, was seen as the solution, a sap to those challenges that were emerging.

      But gradually more and more people in Scotland have become alienated from the ‘Union’ – I think ‘alienation’ is a crucial term, a key process at play here.

      But for the Westminster establishment, it did not change the fact that “Union” remains just a name, a terminology, inherited from history but rarely if ever thought of as an actual combination of or partnership of kingdoms, nations or countries of equal value and status.

      And yes, a Union that is acknowledged and valued would “have developed a vigorous new constitutional re-arrangement by now” (your words) but note, unlike you, I am not attributing this to the Union’s “confidence”: it is the Westminster and British (English) Nationalists’ continuing lack of basic acknowledgement of the notion of partnership coupled to a sense of entitlement i.e. simply no appreciation of what a ‘union’ actually is, should be, could be.

      As I’ve posted before – one state, one country, one kingdom, one nation is all that really matters to the British ruling elite and their supporters, and now, when challenged, the response is to defend the status quo to the … (well we wait to see)!

      (And this all has so many manifestations – the irony of a BBC Sports commentator chiding someone referring to Scotland in an Olympic event rather than Team GB, when the latter is a term that explicitly air brushes Northern Ireland out!)

    200. yesindyref2 says:

      Misogyny as well, nice.

      Not really dear, there’s a female btl poster who uses it a lot to guys. I kind of borrowed it. It’s become unisex, dear. Keep up at the back JSW!

      A later one from him:

      In the light of the UK prime minister’s pragmatic approach to post-Brexit security this @alexmassie piece from 2013 is worth re-reading. “Theresa May’s grubby little warning: an independent Scotland will be out in the cold.”

    201. Macart says:


      Worth bookmarking. That’s another argument ticked off the list – cross border security cooperation. Next time the Britnats pull that horseshit… ‘but your PM said…’. 😉

    202. wull2 says:

      YES people have your own backup plan just in case we loose posts, like yesterday and today on two different platforms that I know of.

    203. Ananurhing says:

      A wee anecdotal account of an interesting encounter I had a couple of months ago.

      I was chatting to a couple I come across now and again. Late fifties, very RP English, lived in Scotland for quite some time. Tory, No, Brexit voters. Business interests which take them to Europe sometimes. Nice people. They know my politics and I know theirs. We tend not to go there but I never miss an opportunity for a sideswipe if it presents itself.

      Standing outside having coffee I dropped the Brexit bomb, and asked for their take on it. Man it was like lighting a slow burn fuse. He turned away in disgust while she built up a head of steam. I stood back and said very little other than steer the conversation a bit.

      She got into her stride, ranting about how we were told we would still have access to the single market. “That’s what we were told” I was gobsmacked at her language when she finished with ” The country’s f***ed, this country is f***ed, isn’t it? It’s enough to make me think about voting for….” She stopped herself. I raised one eyebrow and gave her a wee smile. She looked a bit sheepish. Inside I felt like Rowan Atkinson getting a drop of blood from a stone.

      I would have laid money on them both being No voters till their last breath. I followed up with Wee Black and Blue books which I would never have wasted on them before, and I’m not finished with them yet.

      So please, enough of the knee jerk prejudice that has raised it’s head here recently, and don’t write anyone off.

    204. schrodingers cat says:

      support for indy is pretty static, at about 45%

      amazing really, considering the tories won 2 GE’s and the euref returned a leave since indyref1

      but i still believe that brexit will be awful and will be the catalyst we need to get public opinion to move to Yes.

      but we need to wait until we see the result of the negotiations and whether the MPs at westminster can reverse or stop brexit, and whether there will be another euref. Until we know the answers to these questions, indyref2 must stay off the table.

    205. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2.05pm responding to mine of 12.15pm

      This is probably my first and last long post on Wings. Having now had time to digest your comments (does bold mean you are shouting), I take umbrage at your comment “which side are you on”. After 50 years of active campaigning for the SNP and still doing so, bones and hip permitting, I know only too well what side I am on and can also recall the annual conference being held in rooms and tiny halls, so don’t lecture me with your Poobah attitude.

      I did learn that Tennyson poem at school and can still recite it verbatim, well almost. The first stanza might metaphorically describe our current predicament while the second stanza is an indicator of where we could end up.

      Wings is an indispensable website and the amount of information the Rev provides is absolutely amazing and without doubt is a valuable resource in our independence campaign and much more should be made of it in a wider field. However I suspect his income to maintain this website derives from having to put up with those who enter into endless lengthy correspondence to each other and probably get up each day to spout forth on Wings while achieving absolutely zilch for independence.

      Get real, the biased comments, personal abuse and bad language are not going to convert many, if any, previous No voters and that is assuming they have heard of Wings which the vast majority have not. Sure it’s a great damp sobbing pillow but the chat is taking you nowhere.

      More time spent on Wings, less time speaking to No’s – your choice. Get a life!

    206. Thepnr says:


      Very encouraging wee anecdote. When Brexit starts to bite we may see all kinds coming over to support Independence that we might not have previously imagined.

      So I believe your right, we should never write anyone off.

    207. Valerie says:

      In the spirit of observations.

      I’ve been wandering around on Twitter, due to boredom with the Scottish scene. I noticed a lot of English pro EU starting to follow me, for comments I made, correcting Brexiteers, pointing out SNP unequivocal support for SM and CU etc.

      Its striking how there is now a pretty large contingent of English pro EU waking up to BBC bias and Corbyn’s bullshit on the EU, and they are really angry with Labour.

      Lots of talk of May council elections, and academic AC Grayling is urging people to use said elections to send a message. A recent council by election showed 50% swing to Lib dems.

      The message is if Labour won’t oppose Brexit, vote any candidate who is pro EU.

      It’s interesting because their energy on Twitter reminds me of the indy movement. They are articulate, and countering Brexiteer crap very well.

    208. Daisy Walker says:

      Since January this year, I’ve met 2 former ‘no’s’ absolutely bricking it about Brexit and looking and now remembering and listening to what the ‘yessers’ have said.

      It’s true what they say about you reap what you so… all that biting back retorts and not getting angry, keeping it positive, answering the questions, being impeccably behaved and providing factual answers… we now have credibility and integrity. The Britnats,,, do not.

      We absolutely must not write anyone off, especially now, when there are hard core no voters doing u turns. If they can turn, they will bring others.


    209. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ananurhing at 8.25

      “So please, enough of the knee jerk prejudice that has raised it’s head here recently, and don’t write anyone off.”

      Well said – and with opinion polls showing no drop whatsoever in support for independence it’s conversions that will win for us

    210. winifred mccartney says:

      We know labour in a mess over Brexit but that is not the only thing they are messing up – ‘Appalling behaviour from NEC chair Andy Kerr towards Katrina Murray. Voted 70 to 45 to proceed with electing a chair, this was denied’ from Jackie Baillie’s own twitter account and yet we have 2 labour mp’s this morning telling us nothing to see here Emily Thornberry who just laughed it off on Preston and the shadow Educ on Marr just dismissing it and labour wonder why with the worst govt ever they are still languishing in the polls. They had obviously been told to play it down, but anyone who has watched it knows how disgraceful it was. Labour are forgetting we all have access to their deceit and lies – they cannot get away with saying one thing to their audience and another to TV or Parliament like the notorious Jackie baillie did. As for Jeremy he will continue to reap what he sowed and it is not a pretty sight.

      A terrible weekend what with Clare Baldings disgraceful behaviour and Ruth Davidsons blatant lying – everything sorted agreement on EU Nationals, agreement on NI border, agreement on divorce bill and agreement on transition – hope she had told Tereeza and Arlene. And not once quizzed or questioned by Peston.

      However I feel most sorry for America with the chump, as usual deflecting from the real problem of guns towards mental health. You have to wonder how much the Rifle Association has paid into his coffers.

    211. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Daisy Walker –

      Interesting to hear your experience of how Brexit is creating potential indy supporters.

      The following seems to me to be the kind of thing that no reasonable ‘No’ voter could simply ignore or dismiss. It’s less than 10 minutes long and is not difficult to understand.

      John Jappy, ‘Hiding The Truth’—welcome-to-scotland.html

    212. Cactus says:

      Evenin’, aye may have found some rare footage of the Theresa and the Ruth, when they were performing on stage together:

      iScotref announcement is nearing.

      Trump that.

    213. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 10.33

      That link is bringing up a cooking programme on my PC

    214. Robert Louis says:

      2 different things. 1. Date of indyref. 2. Date indyref is announced by Scotgov (and that needs to be soon).

      Can people on here answer this straightforward question. It seems most folks want to make sure an indy ref is run early next year. PRIOR TO BREXIT. If that is the case, is there not a somewhat pressing need for the Scotgov to announce the date and start of the campaign sometime very soon – say within a month at most.

      It would be no good waiting until late in the year to announce the referendum date, since people tend to want to get out campaigning during the summer. The time of marches, get togethers and events etc.. It would also be no good to wait until brexit negotiations are over, since, those negotiations are currently consuming the entire civil service, so they would not have the time to fight the anti indy campaign for the British Nationalists like they did last time.

      So, the question is really simple, when will the Scotgov. call the referendum – that is, announce the start of the campaign? Until then, we are all still kind of in the dark – and getting extremely frustrated at a lack of action from SNP/Scotgov. Meanwhile the absolute disaster of brexit just keeps marching on.

      Are we really going to wait until brexit has been done to Scotland? After that it will be much, much too late.

    215. boris says:

      Rich pensioner Bill Grant recently elected MP for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock denies the poorer members of the electorate financial benefits and welfare which they need to survive.

    216. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Louis

      Something to ponder, what if there is no Brexit?

    217. Dr Jim says:

      The news tonight is a lot about students and loans and fees, and that’s all fine, except they’ve decided to exclude Scotland from these discussions because let’s just say for the moment our system’s different, but is this entirely fair to the *British* public on the *British* national newsies when they’re happy to talk about Welsh students and English students important as they are, but let’s just not report anything on this about Scotland

      And that my friends tells you all you need to know about the great British media, if Scotland’s doing anything well

      Don’t F…..g report it

      And that’s how you manipulate news output, either make Scotland Baad news or make Scotland cease to exist even though we pay their F…..g wages by license tax or Sky subscription

    218. Hamish100 says:

      I think when the next independent referendum is called the timeline will be short as the choice is quite clear and stark– brexit, stark loss of jobs and lurch to a right wing English government with DUP help (May will also be ousted) or self determination with close links to Europe and positive life choices. Pro NHS, Public service, renewables, pro agriculture and food and drinks, pro education– oops oil reserves as well.
      Even some past No’s will vote for that. We will get the support of younger voters.

      The future is bright…. the future is independence!

    219. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –

      Ach, sorry, I linked from the Truly Scottish TV channel…it must start at the beginning of a loop of some kind.

      Here it is, from Youtube directly:

      John Jappy, ‘Hiding the Truth’ –

    220. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis @ 11.07

      Its only an opinion mind….but….
      What’s the rush?

      Brexit,article 50, the final “deal”…. thats all stuff the EU and Westminster are dealing with!
      We are not involved….Westminster went to great lengths to make sure of that.
      Despite being informed by Holyrood ” things” would be much better all round if they were!
      Holyrood even spent time and treasure on producing plans.
      But no…Westminster were very clear,Holyrood were not to be involved.

      Therefore it is, I think,a fair statement to say that the date,the length of the transition and any vote’s about it,are Westminster and the EU’s …Time Table….

      Why on earth should we be organising the future of OUR country’s arrangements on someone else’s time table.
      This is a matter for Scotland.

      As I see it there only needs to be an .. Announcement…that there is to BE a referendum before March 30th next year.

      That would be enough to signal to the Westminster and the EU negotiators that Scotland and her resources are not and cannot be included in “whatever” post EU membership arrangements they are making.
      In fact I think that the only thing they can do if Hoolyrood announced a referendum is to plan for both …a deal without Scotland and a deal with Scotland.

      What they cannot do is pick our date for us…that’s for Holyrood to do…..and has not a thing to do with the discussion they are having….. You know the one they didn’t want Holyrood in on.
      Its not as if they didn’t know we have considered holding one
      So much so we voted to give our Parliament the mandate to do exactly that!

    221. Hamish100 says:

      liz g


    222. louis.b.argyll says:

      The democratic deficit has been proven to exist, with malignant potential, against the principles of Union.

      A basic risk assessment, using Tory-Brexit-bloody-minded-ness as a political reality, shows that even the case for Scottish Independence is a control measure against the unchecked influence of the privilidged over those less so.

      Timing is all.

      Stand Fast.

    223. Brian McHugh says:

      The BBC pit England against Denmark and Germany, as well as the USA on university tuition fees in their wee graphic.
      …got to wonder why the omission of a slightly closer country?

    224. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 11.30
      I actually think that is what is actually going on Thepnr.
      I think if Nicola announced a date, May would respond with a second Brexit vote.

      The Unionist campaign would then be based around wait and see Scotland and our campaign itself would also be sidelined for the “more important” decision.

      That’s why I think Nicola is waiting till it’s gone too far for Westminster to call another vote.
      And as I’ve already said to Robert Louis we can just call a referendum but we don’t ACTUALLY need to have it till England have left the EU…..just so long as everyone is clear that the new “Bespoke ” trade deal won’t be including Scotland!

      If Westminster managed to call off Brexit first…..then I think that might be the time to use the 2021 election to campaign for never again being dragged to a cliff edge and back again because of the democratic deficit!

    225. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Louis

      I would point you to PNR’s comment, what if there is no brexit?

      We dont know if the mps at westminster will stop A50, vote for an euref etc,

      if we put indyref2 back on the table and the mps vote against the final brexit deal, we would have no choice but to take indyref2 back off the table??

      no, sorry, we have no choice but to wait and see this brexit fiasco play out

    226. Liz g says:

      Schrödinger’s cat @ 12.14
      Was typing aboot that very thing….. Talk aboot timing lol.
      But what I forgot to add was,its my understanding the the current arrangement between the EU and Westminster are gone now anyway.
      Should Westminster try to stay in the EU all the special deal’s and opt outs are gone,and Westminster would only be allowed to stay under ” New ” arrangements.
      Which I think will involve negotiating away more of Scotland’s resources once again without us…
      This would also be very apparent by the 2021 election.
      Giving weight to the claim that we would be better off doing our own deal with the EU.
      Especially since we could point to how Westminster couldn’t get a good enough deal to leave,so much so they had to accept a much worse deal than they had in the first place and reverse the vote.
      And I think by 2021 the repercussions in England for reversing the vote and having to roll over for a worse deal will still be going on….strong and stable that country and its Parliament won’t be!
      Also with all that potentially going on I am pretty confident that Ruthie and the Labour “Un-Sub” ( ok I am watching criminal minds,but it did seem to fit )won’t win in Holyrood

    227. Thepnr says:

      Brexit is still a big black dirty pool that we can’t see the bottom of yet. Let the water clear first before making the decision to dive in head first.

      Clarity is needed, no need to to risk breaking your neck or worse.

    228. schrodingers cat says:

      its my understanding the the current arrangement between the EU and Westminster are gone now anyway.

      aye, that is what guy verhofstadt was alluding to when he talked about the uk pushing different doors to get back into the EU

      I was hoping that we could hold indyref2 before we leave on 29th march 2019, but i think we are running out of time

    229. Robert Peffers says:

      @Hamish100 says: 18 February, 2018 at 3:19 pm:

      “I agree with mike Cassidy. Scots are Scots. is Team GB a new country in the UN?”
      Nah! Great Britain isn’t a country it is an island that contains three countries and most of two kingdoms and it doesn’t contain three Crown dependencies or the United Kingdom’s part of the island or Ireland. Nor, of course the Republic of Ireland.

      Strangely enough the Northern Irish don’t seem too upset by being left out of Team GB and it beggars the two questions – Why did they not call it Team UK?

      Why do the Northern Irish not seem too upset?

      Could it be they are looking forward to being included in Team Ireland?

    230. Meg merrilees says:

      O/T Couldn’t help a small smile…

      Sunday Times has an article about the HALO trust suspending an employee over a sex assault claim and underneath is a picture of ‘Oor’Ruth’ in her mine clearing outfit complete with the HALO logo. Almost thought for a second that she was the suspended employee!!!

      Very unfortunate time to have your picture taken with the HALO logo because the sex assault story is also headline news on the BBC website, .

      And I read she was interviewed by Peston – defending the Foreign Aid budget but she’ll happily defend the hardship caused by the r*pe clause!
      In her picture of derring-do, (t)Ruthless dressed up in her ‘HALO’ protective clothing for the mine-detection photo shoot, – I notice she is looking mightily scared at the camera and not at the mine. Anyway, apparently, in the interview, she sounds off about how it’s wrong for these charities to abuse people, but it seems she’s happy to use their good reputation for her publicity.

      The BBC article about the Peston interview finishes with these two sentences:
      She gave the interview after returning from a trip to Afghanistan with Scottish charity, The Halo Trust, which is running a mine clearance operation in the country.
      The Halo Trust suspended a Burmese employee in January pending an investigation into an allegation of sexual assault.

      Bad-timing on this occasion Ruth!

    231. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      schrodingers cat at 12.14

      No we don’t.

    232. Chick McGregor says:

      “Could it be they are looking forward to being included in Team Ireland?”

      We’ll, they are already, for some sports.

    233. yesindyref2 says:

      Timing is fine, but adequate. The EU Ref date was announced 20 Feb 2016 for 23 June 2016 – just over 4 months.

      Working backwards in time: date of Brexit 29th March 2019, take 2 weeks off for Ref on 14th March 2019, go back 4 months, Indy Ref 2 formally announced 14th November 2018, Section 30 legislation started 10th Oct 2018 on priority, alongside the Brexit deal though UK Parliament.

      Requested by Sturgeon 1st October 2018. Refused. “OK then, we’ll take that to court and your Precious Brexit won’t be able to go through as you won’t have triggerted Article 50 in accord with your UK Constitution as the A50 demands”. “Rubbish”. “OK, see you in court, take your time …”. “OK, so, we’ll do it”.

      ScotGov cabinet meeting 30th September 2018. Final deal or no deal but anyway negotiations finished in time for all EU-27 + UK to ratify (6 months needed) 29th September 2018.

      There you go!

    234. Liz g says:

      Schrödinger’s cat @ 12.55
      I get the frustration,we are all champing at the bit to get started.
      Ironically.. I think….partly to be addressing all the propaganda and disrespect that’s been flung at us,ALL of us in Scotland since 2014.
      A Streisand effect right enough…

      But I really don’t think we need to be held to a date not of our own choosing.

      I could put my tinfoil hat on and……
      Question why??? Westminster have chosen to trigger article 50 to cause Brexit in late March.
      Could it have been…that in the full knowledge of Scotland’s mandate….. This would be the worst time of year to have a referendum?
      Of any kind..
      It certainly wasn’t because Westminster had got all their ducks in a row!

      If we are asserting that “timing” is, if not everything,then is at least,very important
      Then we must,I think,be a wee bit suspicious of these date’s.
      Also Since we can only look to our own interests then we should look at those date’s through our own prism.
      So we should beware of actually acting on that (Westminster )time table and just “manage” it over on to what suit’s Scotland best.
      Well that’s how I see it anyway!!

    235. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 18 February, 2018 at 6:43 pm:

      “What opinion polls are you referring to?”

      All those over the past 84 years since the SNP was formed in 1934. There has always been a slow but stead increase over the longer term.

      “Support for independence is declining currently is it not?”

      Define currently?

      Opinion polls are far from being an exact science and there will always be a differential across the board between the pollsters as the several different pollsters all use different algorithms.

      Not only that but they all publish at different times. Thus if you get a cross sample of only those that tend to show a high figure the, “Current Polls”, will show an increase and, of course, vice versa if the current sample is from pollsters who tend to show a lower sample.

      The only sure figures are that there is a massive increase in support for independence and it has steadily grown over the years. So there will be fluctuations both up and down in the shorter term but the continuing trend is upwards.

      This is a case rather like the age old saying, “You cannot see the wood for the trees”.

      Which old saying is often misinterpreted. The actual meaning is not that you cannot see the wood contained in the individual trees but that you cannot see the extent of the woodland area because you are standing too close to the individual trees themselves.

      It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out if you currently poll 1000 fishermen in a certain areas of Scotland you will get a quite different result than if you polled 1000 new mothers who had just been presented with a new baby box.

      The only way therefore to judge opinion polls on a short term basis, (and that too is far from exact), is to take a, so called, Poll of Polls. The real answer, though, is to look for trends over a longer term and not to place too much faith in small fluctuations.

    236. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chick McGregor says: 19 February, 2018 at 1:14 am:

      “Could it be they are looking forward to being included in Team Ireland?”
      We’ll, they are already, for some sports.”

      Yes, Chick, that is what I was gently hinting at. The way I’m seeing things just now is that are a great many Wingers being very pessimistic and really there is no great reason for being so.

      It just seems to me that some are listening too much to Westminster/BBC/Media propaganda. The truth is that Westminster are really in a bind. Fighting on several fronts and against several different enemies.

      For example they are propagating the myth that many important countries are falling over themselves to do trade deals with the United Kingdom when the real truth is that much of the Commonwealth, all former colonies that Westminster ditched in favour of the European Union but which former colonies have all established other markets for their goods.

      So just why would these countries risk alienating their established markets to return to a United Kingdom that is in immanent danger of disuniting with it being a toss-up on N.I. or Scotland gains independence first.

      Now if I were a member of, say the New Zealand Government, looking in at this from the other side of the World, I’d be thinking along the lines of – if Westminster pulls out of the EU and/or the United Kingdom starts to disunite because of it then Westminster is holding a busted flush and New Zealand has four aces and a joker, (and two kings up their sleeves).

    237. Al Dossary says:

      Ruthie’s latest sponsor – the Halo Trust. I wonder if part of her deal is to be offered a place on the board.

      Inretesting outfit. Their CEO is retired army Officer Major-General James Cowan – on a salary of £160-£180k. There are some 24 UK employees earning £60k or more, and a total UK spend of £4.5 Million on uK staff.

      Nice little racket. UKOK sells Weapons and arms to various despots around the world via middle men (arms dealers or countries) and them employs former Army officers to create said mines from the end users.

      Most of their funding comes from major Western governments and they spend some £10M on “local” salaries. The financial accounts are available on the link below from 2017.

      Whilst their actions are admirable, it is Yoon establishment, one and all. And a nice little earner for them too. Still, they do at least spend most of their money on real projects.

      I’m wondering just how much the husband of Jo Cox was taking from her foundation as salary – guess we’ll need to wait for the accounts to come out. IIRC between them they had an income of around £400k from charity directorships alone.

    238. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 2.20
      Morning Robert…. Are we up late or early…
      I agree all this British mythology.. (and please excuse my turn of phrase)
      Is exactly that “a myth” and here is what I think is the ultimate …irony….

      Despite this island’s history (while some say we shouldn’t look backwards.. I say where else can we look )
      Right here right now this island and it’s government can indeed claim an important strategic position globally
      This would make others want/need to trade with such a government.
      For the purpose of trade and strategy….it now seems to be the Northern part of the big island that matter’s..Ergo…
      The Auld Treaty between the Southern bit and the Northren bit should have been looked after….any Parliament who understood that they were in fact a dual administration… (and wanted to keep it that way) should have acted accordingly.
      Oh dear whit a pity….never mind….Too late now!!

    239. ALANM says:

      Re. Balding

      She was just following standard operating procedures as set out in the bbc sports presenters handbook…

      Scottish team or athlete does well = Great British success
      Scottish team or athlete loses = disaster for Scotland

    240. frogesque says:

      @yesindyref2 1.21am

      You forgot, Westminster will need to take an extra 2 weeks out for the Marching Season.

    241. Ghost of Breeks says:

      Well I hope you’re right about timing, because whatever way you look at it, the SNP has put all our eggs in one basket, and it’s not even a Constitutional basket at that.

      Like him or hate him, (no doubt you’ll condemn him), but Craig Murray comments, “…But the SNP appears to have been seized by crippling timidity on the subject of Independence. There are worrying signs that Sturgeon’s evident lack of serious intent to push for Independence, is finally damping down grassroots activism, including on social media”.

      The SNP keeping assiduously to an ultra-clever master plan kept under wraps to finally outwit the nasty Unionists and their pet propaganda machine was a useful comfort blanket for many Yessers in the run up to 2014, but the long awaited master plan never did materialise, and the unholy trinity of Unionists, BBC and UKOK newspapers got away with murder and left our 2014 Independence flat on its back and outlined in chalk. Plus ca change 2018?

      We’re here now, four years later, almost into the last year before the theft of our European citizenship. Nobody “official’ wants to mention Independence, and everybody wants to squirm around, over, under and through the absolute binary significance of Scotland’s National Sovereignty. Whatever purchase has been gained as a consequence of Brexit has been by proxy, instigated and driven by others, because we have meekly allowed ourselves to be sidelined. We are reactive to everything, never proactive. Northern Ireland has Europe drafting its constitutional half-way-house status into law as we speak, while Scotland waits outside in the cloakroom. Nobody is currently busy writing “our” ad-hoc European arrangements into legislation.

      It’s “all” now going to swing on the concluded Brexit deal being “clear”, a clarity which will ultimately be tarted up and served up for public consumption, just like the “Vow”. Really? That’s our plan for victory???

      I understand that Brexit will compel a lot of Unionists to lose heart in the Union and perhaps even vote for a thing they always held as unthinkable. I sympathise. I can see merit in not making the decision for these delicate flowers even harder by our buoyant optimism and heaven forbid smug self righteous arrogance. I see that, and yes, it could be pivotal. But I’m damned trying to figure out what logic underpins an inspired drive for Independence which requires its own grassroots support to begin the campaign so disillusioned, confused, directionless and left entirely to its own initiative. I try to avoid the word “despair” in the hope that it only applies to me.

      “It’s all down to you and me,” the SNP footsoldiers cry, then promptly salt the earth beneath the feet of anyone who breaks ranks or deviates from the SNP’s doctrine of stubborn silence. If it really is down to you and me, then WE need to get a wriggle on and put an end to this crippling stasis of “wait and see” radicalism.

      And do not, I beg you and warn you, do not say “we have now run out of time” to do this or that, and expect my reaction to be anything other than blistering outrage. We have squandered two years since our sovereign decision to remain in Europe and so far we have done nothing to materially prevent it, let alone defend the very principle of sovereignty.

      In 2014 I commented that Independence was not about keeping the pound, but having the power to choose your currency. It was not about having nuclear weapons, but having the power to decide whether you had them.
      Seems I’m barking at the same moon in 2018. Independence is not about Brexit, whether it’s clear Brexit, murky Brexit, hard Brexit, soft Brexit or seek medical advice if swallowed Brexit, – but whether or not to be Brexited is OUR decision. Independence is a SOVEREIGNTY thing.

    242. galamcennalath says:

      Timing for IndyRef2. We are a few weeks away from TMay telling us, and telling the EU, what she wants from Brexit.

      It sounds like she’s going to want some very complex arrangement where there is a close regulatory alignment for some sectors, but not others. Cars, yes. Agriculture, No. she might even concede ECJ oversight on the close sectors, but not for others.

      The compromise between the hard and the soft Tory cabinet members and party factions sounds like each will get the deal they want, but for only half of sectors. It is going to sound like cliff jump for some sectors, but single market for others.

      What will the EU say? Probably, f’off. The Tory default will be to move towards hard, saying “it’s those bad furriners”.

      IMO the details don’t matter. It’s the overall position of TMay’s vision which does, and it is going to be well below the SNP/SG’s level of acceptability. This is going to become clear in the next month or so.

      So although we are all like the kids in the back of the car repeating, “are we not there yet”, I believe we will very soon reach the starting grid.

    243. Les Wilson says:

      More about the Oxfam situation on radio shortbread this morning,
      for sure what has happened needs fixing so that those most vulnerable are protected, and those who carried out the offences charged.

      The protestations from Westminster seem to me to be the excuse they were looking for to cut charity funding.

      However, let us hold on a minute, all that has been exposed in Oxfam happens in Westminster and on a much bigger scale, consider all the pedo stuff that is unlikely to get to court, or even considered by the elite, most of it hidden under the carpet by our masters.

      On death some details may come out, but few are ever actually dealt with. Most are buried by our security services at least for a very extended time, if they see the light of day at all.

      Then on top of this we have illegal wars, we have corruption on a biblical scale, we have mysterious murders never explained, people just disappear or deaths unexplained. Coke parties,prostitution. buggery, and every deviate thing that you can imagine,and some we would never imagine. All that can be found in the Westminster world.

      So given all this there is one conclusion, it is not only Oxfam that has problems, there are far far more in Westminster and all it’s proxies. It is Westminster that should be shut down.

      We need a Bastille day in this country, not for head chopping, but it all needs exposing then the guilty should rot in jail for life.
      However it is so endemic that it would take years to expose it all.So exposure is unlikely.

      As far as Scotland is concerned, we should not be shackled to such a despot “Union”, it makes me feel sick that there is any connection at all.Our only saviour lies ahead soon.

    244. sensibledave says:

      galamcennalath 8:58 am

      … a reasonable summary of the overall position I agree.

      I assume, at some point, Ms May will have to start talking a bit “tougher”. The negotiations should be about fiendly parties reaching an equitable arrangement that is to the financial benefit of both parties and works for both politically too.

      We have witnessed the grandstanding of the “bad cops” of both sides and those elements need to sit on their hands for a while.

      As I have always maintained, the CETA deal sits their as the “backstop” of the very least that is available. However, both sides would benefit from more bespoke arrangements to produce a CETA plus, plus, plus arrangement.

      THE SNP/SG will, of course, position themselves to be against any outcome that the Westminster negotiators can agree (i.e. we wont be members of the single market and in the customs union therefore it wont be good enough). Politically, they have to be anti any outcome to maintain the “Scotland is being ignored” mantra.

      However, there is a big danger for the SNP that, at the end of these negotiations, we end up with what is perceived to be a “good deal” where we leave the EU; maintain free and relatively friction-less trade, get the ECJ out of most of our business and restrict “Free movement” (a la CETA). IF that happens, the SNP will have their judgement questioned and come, the next referendum/GE, they could pay the price at the ballot box.

      On the other hand ….

    245. heedtracker says:

      IF that happens, the SNP will have their judgement questioned and come, the next referendum/GE, they could pay the price at the ballot box.

      You’re preaching to the choir sensible d.

      SNP simply do not exist on the grand olde bbc tory gimp network. So it makes no odds at all what Brexit does turn out to be and even less what the SNP think about.

      Its the England rules the Brexit waves, so shut it shithole Scotland region, all the way, from now on, or until Scotland’s independence day. Beeb gimps will make sure Brexit is a toryboy triumph of being British.

      Clear choice sensible d, no matter how hard England pretends it’s Scotland region does not exist.

      SNP out, SNP bad, Sturgeon is vile, is the BBC mantra for ever and ever. Vote Teresa, she’s a genius, not a fuckwit, or which ever tory nutcase deposes her, even you maybe sensible d:D

    246. jfngw says:

      If it has not dawned on the people in Scotland the total disregard that Westminster has for them during the last year then I fear it never will.

      The utter contempt they have shown to Scotland’s opinion must surely result in a break up of the UK no matter what agreement is finally struck with the EU.

      Are the Scots going to forever accept their resources being squandered to make a London elite even richer.

      If you are quite happy being treated like shite by our supposed betters then don’t be shocked when they continue to do so.

    247. sensibledave says:

      jfngw 9:45 am

      You wrote “The utter contempt they have shown to Scotland’s opinion must surely result in a break up of the UK no matter what agreement is finally struck with the EU.”

      … don’t forget the “utter contempt” for the 13.3m English. Remain voters that are also being “ignored”, as you put it ….. or outvoted electorally (like me) in a free and fair referendum … is another way of putting it.

    248. heedtracker says:

      If you are quite happy being treated like shite by our supposed betters then don’t be shocked when they continue to do so.

      Its all about brain washing themselves into teamGB greatness. Watching or listening to their beeb gimp network is an endless journey through britnat tory propaganda. Tea time last night BBC country show, had a lovely thing about sea salt from the Menai Strait.

      we get our seawater from the designated area of the Menai Strait in accordance with our Protected Designation of Origin (PDO) status, laid down by the independent EU commission.

      At no point in that show did the smirking beeb gimp explain that this EU protection has now Brexit gone or will be next year.

      Its what beeb gimpery Leaves out, that’s their big power.

    249. PictAtRandom says:

      I remain cautious about striking too early. Let’s wait till they’ve “used all their subs” if we can.
      At the moment the SNP is picking up the lion’s share of the Remain vote but it still isn’t enough. Yet compare and contrast with the LibDems in England who struggle to get 25% of the Remain vote there. Now, they’re just a political party, but still would serve as an indicator of a general growth in anti-Brexit feeling. Always worth looking beyond in order to collect the best range of evidence for action.

      I’m still thinking about the actual 2021 election as a mandate for independence. It would be tough but perhaps less tough than getting a clear and absolute majority of the electorate in an IndyRef2 which wasn’t sanctioned by Westminster. (I think that allowing Westminster to choose the time of things would be a disaster.)

    250. mike cassidy says:

      OT(and in line with a tweet on the Rev’s page)

      This is where we’re headed if the Tories get their way.

      The SNP have to make more of the NHS issue.

    251. heedtracker says:

      … don’t forget the “utter contempt” for the 13.3m English. Remain voters that are also being “ignored”, as you put it ….. or outvoted electorally (like me) in a free and fair referendum … is another way of putting it

      Indeed sensible d but then Scots voted Remain twice now, 2014, we were heavily threatend with losing our EU passports and never getting them back, unless we stayed under English control. It must have been true, even great BBC Scots like Andrew Marr said so.

      Look where listening to threats like that got Scots sensible d.

      I know, so what, Scots are nothing in the great UKOK scheme of things, do as we English say, its for your own good, we don’t have to even bother answering queries like how we threatened you with losing your EU citizenship 3 years ago but then stripped you of it all, 2 years later, its democracy, UKOK democracy, so shut it.

      No thanks sensible d.

    252. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 18 February, 2018 at 8:41 pm:

      “Robert Peffers @ 2.05pm responding to mine of 12.15pm
      This is probably my first and last long post on Wings. Having now had time to digest your comments (does bold mean you are shouting), I take umbrage at your comment “which side are you on”.

      My first thoughts on reading this retort by you was to write what I am about to write. However, I never write anything on Wings without due though and never do so in anger. After thinking on it and sleeping on it I have not changed my mind so here is my reply.

      As to your question, “Does bold mean you are shouting?

      It means exactly what it says it is, “emphasis”. It does not mean shouting. That is just one more of the myths propagated by the more unaware users of the web. I omitted the closing HTML tag to cancelled my emphasised words and phrases for which I apologised. The actual daft web claim is that upper case text is shouting is also claptrap. You cannot shout in text.

      “After 50 years of active campaigning for the SNP and still doing so, bones and hip permitting, I know only too well what side I am on and can also recall the annual conference being held in rooms and tiny halls, so don’t lecture me with your Poobah attitude.”

      So here we go with what I have been saying for some considerable time now for your, (cough!), Poobah, retort. Which highlights it far better than The HTML tags used to emphasis words and phrases. You claim that after 50 years of active campaigning for the SNP you know only too well which side you are on. Isn’t it such a pity that no one else can say that about you? I’ll now explain for you just why they cannot do so.

      I’m reading far more SNP and SG BAAAD! claims right here on Wings than I do on any other public domain outlet by people who make claims to be SNP and independence supporters. I’m not going to just hint at it now I’m going to lay it on the line and not just for you.

      If you are what you claim to be, a long term supporter of the SNP then you should know what the consequences of your actions here on Wings will most certainly be.

      Wings isn’t just read by indy supporters just as, “Labour Hame”, and other unionist party websites are read by Wingers and other indy supporters attempting to find out what the other side is thinking and doing.

      By posting your opposition to the SNP, the SG and anyone, (like myself), who remains loyal to the party you fuel the unionist belief that the SNP, the SG and the wider indy movement is divided among themselves.

      No one, including myself, agrees 100% with what party is doing or attempting to do, but here’s the thing, we do not all air our differences on an open to all comers blog.

      There is a time and a place for SNP members to voice any objections they have to anything the party does, doesn’t, or proposes to do. That place is at any branch meeting in any constituency in Scotland and the time to do it is when the chairperson ask if there is any other competent business.

      So why would any SNP member, who after all has the same number of votes on SNP policy as Nicola Sturgeon, want to telegraph to the unionists that there is internal friction in the SNP and friction between the SG and the other grass roots campaigners?

      “Wings is an indispensable website and the amount of information the Rev provides is absolutely amazing and without doubt is a valuable resource in our independence campaign and much more should be made of it in a wider field.”

      So why are you undermining the good work it does by running down the SG, party leader and First Minister? The first and quite clear result of which is a rash of, “Me Too comments”, as so amply demonstrated on this very thread – go and backtrack through it and count the number of other’s actively campaigning, (Yes I said campaigning), against the First Minister, the SG and The SNP?

      Do what all members should and keep such opposition to the party leadership in the party for the SNP, unlike every other United Kingdom political party is truly democratic. Take your doubts and your opposition to the branch where it will, and must be, recorded in the minutes and the feedback fed back up the tree to headquarters.

      “However I suspect his income to maintain this website derives from having to put up with those who enter into endless lengthy correspondence to each other and probably get up each day to spout forth on Wings while achieving absolutely zilch for independence.”

      If that is meant to be a veiled dig at me – why not say what you want to here to my face? Or is it, like stabbing Nicola in the back, only done by you on an open forum where you go under a nom de guerre?

      Unlike you I’m exactly who I claim to be and use my own name. By the way I’m only beginning now to get the benefits of several years of very long and very painful treatments for, among other disabilities, a broken back and a broken neck. Thank you for the claims that I’m only a keyboard supporter of independence.

      “Get real, the biased comments, personal abuse and bad language are not going to convert many, if any, previous No voters and that is assuming they have heard of Wings which the vast majority have not. Sure it’s a great damp sobbing pillow but the chat is taking you nowhere.”

      What bad language would that be, Footsoldier? What bias, other than my support for Scottish independence and the only party or organisation in the United Kingdom that has the capacity to deliver it which, unlike you, I would never dream of airing my differences with on an open forum.

      “More time spent on Wings, less time speaking to No’s – your choice.” Perhaps I may be speaking to No’s here on Wings and there are certainly more than a few on here actively campaigning against the SNP, SG and Nicola Sturgeon yet they have the temerity to accuse others of being slackers.

      BTW: What is your evidence that those commenters on wings who disagree with you and your little friends actively campaigning against the SNP are not also talking to those in Scotland not yet converted to support independence? You are, after all also commenting, (negatively), here on Wings.

      I’ll say it again, (this time With emphasis), If you want to complain about Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP or the SG then do so via your local branch meetings, where it will be forwarded to the party hecht heid ains, and not on an open forum where it will only fuel the cause of the unionists.

    253. Meg merrilees says:

      Discussion about T May wanting to change university fee structure.

      Two interesting observations on the radio this morning, switched on half way through, about 8.20…

      John Humphrey’s was interviewing someone and actually said, tentatively,
      …but what about the situation in Scotland, or in Wales…

      this was shut down immediately with, ‘I’m not going to talk about the devolved settlements’,
      but was addressed later on with a remark from Amber Rudd that we’ve got many more people going to University in England so we couldn’t possibly afford that’

      so that’s why they are comparing England with Denmark, etc.


      Also, a fascinating talk from 9.00am with Andrew Marr, a Harvard professor, a philosopher and a neuroscientist.

      Harvard professor Stephen Pinker defending Humanism and the Enlightenment which is now under attack with the rise of the the ‘Right’, Dutch philosopher Rob Riemen sees the rise of fascism and tries to understand how, why and can Culture stop it.

      The Neuroscientist, Tali Sharot, argues that you have to understand how the brain works to win an argument.

      I guess this is the really interesting bit with regard to changing No voters to Yes. I’m hugely simplifying her stance below

      e.g. Trump always uses the emotional argument, Clinton quoted facts and people’s hearts on many cases rule their heads.
      Facts will convert people who are hovering but if you have a strong view and are confident in that belief, only a really emotional argument will change your mind. e.g. ‘take back control’ ‘ ‘no to a second indy referendum’ etc..

      It’s worth a listen, 9.00am BBC R4

    254. heedtracker says:

      this was shut down immediately with, ‘I’m not going to talk about the devolved settlements’,
      but was addressed later on with a remark from Amber Rudd that we’ve got many more people going to University in England so we couldn’t possibly afford that’

      It really was. That was classic tory BBC propaganda alongside tory party propaganda.

      No stats, like how all the poor are now going to uni in England now is ever challenged by any beeb gimp.

      No beeb gimp ever says to the tory propagandist on their beeb gimp network, how come no poor students get in to the top 24 Russell Group uni’s, why are they still only for the rich and the privileged, with the odd poor grafter, for tory gimp propaganda purposes?

      Russell group are just as big a bunch of liars as the tory party but at least they don’t come out with the greater tory lies like, everyone thought that English uni’s would have a market based competing course price structure, when we decided to sell off England’s uni education, to the rich.

    255. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.47am

      Tee hee!

    256. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers

      You wrote “No one, including myself, agrees 100% with what party is doing or attempting to do, but here’s the thing, we do not all air our differences on an open to all comers blog.”

      Why not Robert? Every other party does. When you don’t, then you leave yourself open to the charges of being a party of unthinking robots spouting party policy, unchallenged, in an echo chamber – and where “ordinary” casual visitors get stamped on just for expressing a view that isn’t “approved”!

      Do you really want a blog where someone writes a proposition and then all the comments are a variation of “Me too”, dog whistle stuff.

      Clearly, I am not an SNP supporter – but neither am I opposed. You will have noticed though that I have no issue in challenging SNP received wisdom in the same way as I have issues with the Tory party.

      Democracy and free speech go hand in hand. To abuse people purely because they have a different view to you is inane and (as is demonstrated via the ballot box in Scotland) unproductive. Persuasion, positivity and showing a better way is what changes minds, not criticism and abuse.

      You only have to read a few comments above get the view that SNP supporters believe they are the only moral, ethical, compassionate and caring folk in the UK. They would have you believe that everyone else is a selfish, uncaring red/blue/pink Tory Brit Nat only interested in oppressing Scotland and feathering their own nests.

      If I was a Scottish “indyno”, am I persuaded to vote for an independent Scotland and SNP policies ….. because otherwise, I must be a heartless, selfish oppressor? No … is the answer Robert. All that does is make SNP supporters appear as aggressive, abusive, know-alls that are totally contemptuous of anyone with a different “take” to the “agreed” party line.

      Obviously, I come here in the knowledge that I am likely to offer a different perspective and am quite happy to take whatever is thrown back. Water off a ducks back and all that. However if I was a indy fence sitter, would I be enthused and converted by the way some write here and deal with anyone not yet “converted”?

      In summary Robert, my personal view, for what it is worth (fortunes I’d say), is that a little more discussion about policy would be infinitely more attractive than the abuse of “dissenters”.

    257. heedtracker says:

      Obviously, I come here in the knowledge that I am likely to offer a different perspective and am quite happy to take whatever is thrown back. Water off a ducks back and all that.

      Haha! you always melt down in to abusive hysterics sensible d, you tory twit. Then you disappear, then you come back, to lie hard for the tory rule of Scotland btl WoS.

      Is there anything at all you toryboy twerps don’t lie about sensibe d?

    258. sensibledave says:

      Yo Heedy!

      I totally expect to receive rubbish and invective from the likes of you Heedy … and you never disappoint. Even other Wingers are embarrassed by you.

    259. Liz g says:

      Footsoldier @ 11.41

      Tee hee….that’s your rebuttal?
      You do know you posted on Wing’s .. right?
      Or were ye mibbi talking to the weans and got mixed up?
      If so can I ask… some children still say Tee hee?
      My lot would think I was practicing my Gaelic… Badly.
      Quaint right enough…. Tally ho…

    260. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      19 February, 2018 at 12:49 pm
      Yo Heedy!

      I totally expect to receive rubbish and invective from the likes of you Heedy … and you never disappoint. Even other Wingers are embarrassed by you.

      I am so sorry my toryboy master. Please forgive my insolence sensible d. You Toryboy twerps are in charge of Scotland still and I really should show you all the respect you so richly deserve.

      You toryboys are so great geniuses and geniusy, its truly humbling to even get to read your BetterTogether Scotland stuff, hope Scotland Remains a shithole region of greater Brexit England, under toryboy rule for ever and ever, god save the royals and your precious precious UKOK union.

      Happy sensible d?

    261. sensibledave says:


      Whilst I know that you either don’t, can’t or are unable to comprehend the written language, I will, however, try to correct you on a couple of points.

      I am not in charge of anything. I am not a member of any political party and am certainly not an activist for anyone.

      I am neither pro, nor against Scottish Independence. I really don’t care.

      I am a republican by instinct.

      Now, I know that this doesn’t “compute” with your sweeping stereotyping of all, and every non-SNP voter (btw, I can’t vote for the SNP), and this will not change what you write one bit …. because you are an idiot. Hey ho!

    262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I just want to chip in again with this timing thing. It’s true that there still remains a deal of uncertainty about how Brexit will pan out, and to move prematurely (as right now) could see us end up flat-footed. On that we can all agree, I think.

      But there is a timetable of sorts set out by the EU, and that at least makes a clear line in the sand. The EU27 are not passive observers, as we currently are forced to be.

      The strategy of the English Government (and I use that term deliberately) is to obfuscate and fudge everything as much as possible for at least a couple of years beyond Brexit, and if Labour have any influence on the process at all, that fudge will be prolonged into the indefinite future, if for no reason other than that they can’t make up their own minds about the issue.

      To put ourselves at the mercy of such a fuzzy timetable would be a serious error. In that I’m with Liz g. We can’t afford to let things bumble along like that, with the BBC in full Dunkirk mode. It’s pure bad psychology. We have to be careful, yes, but we also have to show clear intent, not only to the outside world, but above all also to ourselves, the people of Scotland. We must be clearly prepared to impose our own timetable on this.

      By which I don’t mean “wait till ’21”, which is a recipe for over-cautious self-defeat if ever there was one. Unless there’s a complete Brexit meltdown, in which case the justification would be as Liz g mentioned at 00:10 this morning. But I doubt the Tory Party could itself withstand such a retreat now.

    263. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I would be very grateful if some of you could look at the debate across on Kialo regarding Scottish Independence.”

      I suspect you’ll have to tell people what the hell “Kialo” is first.

    264. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 1:21 am
      You wrote “There you go!”

      I followed all of that yesidyref and the timings sort of make sense. The whole thing would make sense if …. if the “people of Scotland” are with you.

      I dont know how, but I am pretty sure that we will see all of the UK (including SCotland)) leave the EU in March 2019.

      In my judgement (and I was wrong once I.e. I thought I was wrong on something but it turned out I was right all along), Ms Sturgeon is not ready to go “all in”, to use a Poker term, on the subject of Scottish Independence. No matter how frustrating for her, she is not going to risk her current position/status, and that of a potential indyref2, by attempting to wreck Brexit.

      Too many voters didnt vote SNP at the last GE, too many voters voted No in indyref and too many voters voted Leave in the EU referndum. I do not believe she will call indyref2 unless she “knows” she will win it. There is absolutely no evidence of a majority vote in favour of independence at this time. Add to that the increased uncertainty that would be associated with being out of both the UK and the EU .. and, in my view it is a non starter.

      Her view could be though that the tide is only going in the wrong direction for her and that an early referendum is her last and only chance (for another generation) … even though she doesn’t believe she can win it. At least, on a personal level she will have gone down (and out of politics) fighting – rather than just becoming another failed politician that was unable to carry the country with her in her ambitions. Rightly or wrongly, the SNP is seen mainly as a single issue party. If the main aim of the party becomes achievable for a generation then the whole focus turns on to the performance of the party as a government, rather than a lobby group.

      The SNP has not shone as a government and, for whatever reason, doesn’t seem to have the courage of its convictions on things like tax policy, education, NHS, etc.

    265. yesindyref2 says:

      You do know you’re talking a load of rubbish?

      The only thing you’re almost right on is this: “In my judgement (and I was wrong once

      Remove the word “once”, and substitute “always”, and there you go, Voila!

    266. sensibledave says:


      … so, I assume that you believe Ms Sturgeon has got a cunning plan that will create havoc, stop Brexit and take Scotland out of the UK?

      Nah, unlikely. More likely that she has found herself between a rock and hard place. She threatened with the “I am not bluffing” line … and then had her bluff called. My view is that she is frozen into inaction … purely because she doesn’t actually know what to do.

      Maybe its just us English are a bit more cynical about our politicians. We don’t bestow saint like qualities upon them like you do. I remember Ms Sturgeon’s “we wont interfere in purely English matters like foxhunting” speech live on TV ….and then interfered at her first opportunity (BTW, did Scotland ever get round to make their fox hunting laws at least as equitable as English laws on fox hunting …. No? Hypocites!).

      From that moment on, she became just another lying politician looking for self publicity. Ever since then though, as a result of her first big lie, her star has been on the wain – just like all politicians over time. She will be hosting a TV chat show soon – you mark my words.

    267. sensibledave says:


      … so, I assume that you believe Ms Sturgeon has got a cunning plan that will create havoc, stop Brexit and take Scotland out of the UK?

      Nah, unlikely. More likely that she has found herself between a rock and hard place. She threatened with the “I am not bluffing” line … and then had her bluff called. My view is that she is frozen into inaction … purely because she doesn’t actually know what to do.

      Maybe its just us English are a bit more cynical about our politicians. We don’t bestow saint like qualities upon them like you do. I remember Ms Sturgeon’s “we wont interfere in purely English matters like foxhunting” speech live on TV ….and then interfered at her first opportunity (BTW, did Scotland ever get round to make their fox hunting laws at least as equitable as English laws on fox hunting …. No? Hypocrites!).

      From that moment on, she became just another lying politician looking for self publicity. Ever since then though, as a result of her first big lie, her star has been on the wain – just like all politicians over time. She will be hosting a TV chat show soon – you mark my words.

    268. North chiel says:

      Tend to agree with RJS @ 0301pm and Liz@ 0010 . However, the “ Consevative&UNIONIST Party” , ( and state media) although apparently completely focused on “Brexit” , are undoubtedly “ running scared” on the increasing possibility of the “ break up of the U.K. ( a United Ireland vote and/or Indyref2 vote). Independence vote .Consequently , this clear and present danger to the “ precious precious union” has to be countered with a contingency by the Westminster establishment. Obviously May is looking for a “win win “ of hard Brexit and retention of the U.K. as one entity. If our FM sets a date then this date becomes a “ target” for Westminster , as the Brexit position clarifies, the “ state propaganda campaign “ against independence will intensify exponentially.The section 30 order will probably only be “ granted” if May thinks she can win. Our best chance might be a “ surprise announcement” at a critical time ,and “ short notice” date setting, at the very time the Tory government are not expecting it ( with or without section 30).
      The establishment “ last resort” tactic to stymie Independence , would be probably a General election ( change of gov and remain in SM/CU) or 2nd EU vote as I see it ??. The Britnat establishment will do absolutely anything to retain the so called “ union”.

    269. louis.b.argyll says:

      Sensibledave writing exclusively about himself and his detractors as if he’s ‘average’.

      It’s all me, I, me, and basically, you’re all wrong to be on the same side..while also holding different opinions on short term strategic aims.

      He’s clearly jealous, claiming Wings is wrong to have a fluid consensus within fast moving politics.

      It’s bloody-minded Conservatives and their supporters, from sensibledave to Donald Trump, that have taken the UK and the USA to a position at odds with their population’s human rights and economic security.

      Where they see division, they sell weapons or sew further division, simples.

    270. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      North chiel @ 16:22,

      There are so many cracks in the Union that Brexit has opened up, if not actually started.

      Don’t forget, the Tories (under John Major at least) were willing in principle to jettison Northern Ireland. If we really made life awkward enough for Boris, Jacob & Co, might they not be willing to do the same with us?

      Someone upthread made the interesting point that the English Establishment have to continually ride this tiger, keeping English exceptionalism to the fore without ever allowing it to escalate into full-blown “let’s get shot of all those North British subsidy junkies”.

      It may well be as stewartb (@ 20:05, 18.Feb) says, that the proponents of the Union in the past never needed self-confidence because their arrogance obscured any need for it until it was ultimately challenged. I suspect it was all of a bundle. Those were different times and different public attitudes, including within Scotland itself. There are certainly well-documented cases where Scottish issues (eg. retention of the tartans with Army reforms at the beginning of the 20th Century) were taken very seriously, and acted-upon.

      That is clearly no longer the case, with Ruthie & Co. simply following the Tory party line of the moment, slavishly changing along with every change of wind direction from HQ. Which certainly reveals a current lack of self-confidence among the NorthBritories, despite all of the little corporal’s fatuous bluster.

      That’s why I believe the SG could be doing more now to make life awkward for London. Maybe that’s what’s brewing out of sight in the intergovernmental discussions (such as there are) over the Withdrawal Bill. And why the NorthBriTories appear particularly nervous about that one.

      The main stumbling block to a mutual parting of the ways is probably our wealth of resources. Those down south in the know (Lab as well as Tory) realise that a go-it-alone England+ would be on a very sticky wicket indeed (to use their terms) economically without our generous subsidy to their economy, despite their propaganda that it’s the other way round.

      I keep trying to urge people though to appreciate that Brexit is the most categorical policy error that any UKGov has made since Suez in 1956. Then as now there were very strong opinions expressed on both sides of the argument, but history has since clearly proven one side correct, and for the exact same reason as today. Standalone neo-imperialism is a dead duck. A non-functional paddler. We must therefore exploit this opportunity to the full, not allow it to just pass on by, waiting forever for just the right opportunity.

      In the end it’s all about “hearts and minds” right here. If we win that, there’s nothing London can do. It has to be worked for and won, though, it won’t just happen by dint of happenstance, as some seem to be hoping/thinking.

    271. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave: “I assume that you believe Ms Sturgeon has got a cunning plan that will create havoc, stop Brexit and take Scotland out of the UK?

      Substitute “know” for “believe”, and you’d be one-third right for a change, but without the havoc which is in nobody’s interest, and without stopping Brexit which is probably beyond redemption in the Rees-Moggy what’s in it for me universe.

    272. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hi insensible,

      Don’t really want to prolong an essentially circular dialogue-of-the-deaf, but I can’t help but observe that your contributions to the debate appear to stem largely from a sense of injured self-pride.

      You really can’t personally stand the thought that this oft-neglected “region” of your Brengland wants to be free of your overriding and suffocating interference. (Not yours personally, you understand, since you are probably a very amiable chap. But the remote control governance is there for everyone to see. And the hypocrisy of your EU separatists is also very visible up here, if not where you live.)

      We just want to be equals and friends. Can you not appreciate and respect that? There are very many of us, some still desperately clinging on to the hope with their fingertips, who simply wanted the Union to be flexible enough to grant us a serious degree of autonomy. Instead we have been served a litany of broken promises and outright lies. Instead of an honest attempt to address our concerns, a deliberate attempt to deceive and cheat us by all the main UK political parties in collusion. That’s not how you treat people, as I hope that even you could agree.

      There was every possibility of a better Union, once. But no more. Too much dirty water has flowed under the bridge. Please just understand and accept that. Once we are free we can be proper friends and equals. A win-win for all.

    273. North chiel says:

      RJS@ 0513 pm , agreed sir, “ the cracks” in the union are beginning to show. Perhaps our FM intends to let this process develop “ a little more” before committing herself? Certainly as I see it
      there comes a point where even a “ tanker load of superglue” won’t repair the self inflicted Tory damage to their “ precious precious “ union.

    274. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 5.13
      I actually think that the Scottish government has done quite a bit to make it presence felt by Westminster Robert.
      They managed to put together a package for Scotland and it’s relationship with the EU that would…..
      A – Return all powers except defence to Holyrood so that Scotland could do it’s own thing in Europe.
      And from there it would be a hop skip and a jump to independence the next time Westminster wanted to kill brown people.
      B – Have these powers rejected which would take Devo Max off the ballot paper and/or any other parchments they try to stick it on.

      Next they commissioned the impact studies, those are now not in dispute and will probably be referred to mercilessly during the campaign.

      And don’t forget that Court case, the one Joanna Cherry is involved in… looks to me like it will slam the door shut on any attempt to claim Brexit can be reversed back to the current arrangements with the EU.

      Westminster, even if it tried to call a snap general election couldn’t run a campaign to halt Brexit if the Eu court has already ruled it can’t be done.
      Yes Europe would let Westminster stay but they would need to sign up to different term’s and conditions.
      A court judgement sayin that,prevents any inference that Westminster would go to court after an election to make the EU reverse article 50.

      I think that as frustrating as it is,not having a date,the Scottish government has, and is being very proactive in moving all the pieces into place,to eliminate as much of the Westminster ability to distort what our choice actually is.
      Before handing it over to us,for our final say.

    275. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 20:32,

      Sorry, Liz, I didn’t mean to impugn the SG in any way. They have worked like Trojans in the widest possible interest of everyone in Scotland, and not just for ardent yessers. And maybe done so behind the scenes as much as in the public domain. But without fair public recognition, as yet. Frustratingly.

      Hence our current quandary about timing. If the heather had gone on fire after the EUref result, we would undoubtedly be in a very different place now.

      But the SG has left markers in the record for future reference, that’s true.

      The current Scottish court challenge is a private venture, though, not an SG initiative. The initial dismissal on the spurious grounds that the current UKGov was disinterested was a juridical cop-out, IMO.

      But going forward, we’ll have to see. I’m not at all sure though that the ultimate result will be to confirm that there’s no turning-back from Brexit. (More’s the pity.)

      Also keep in mind that there are also other private initiatives being pursued in other jurisdictions such as the Netherlands. Principally because the claimants don’t trust English courts to deliver a fair judgement, given the monstering that judges readily get from the BritNat papers these days, as well as from a natural reluctance to get too enmeshed in essentially political matters.

      Frankly, I wish more energy had been put into the capability of putting a Scottish block on Brexit. As Gina Miller successfully did already. But I’m not qualified to know how much mileage there was likely to be in that. However, it has the potential to be a lever for persuading the English Brexiteers that they would be far better off just dumping us. I can’t believe there would be any political penalty in England for doing so. (At least until afterwards when people began to realise just who was subsidising whom! =grin=)

      But maybe a necessary showdown by the SG is still pending, awaiting due process. I don’t for an instant believe that there is no plan.

    276. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 9.18

      I didn’t for a minute think you were having a go at the Scottish government Robert.
      I was writing to remind myself as much as anyone that they are working on it.

      Because just like you, I just wish things would come together and we can get on with the campaign.

      And yes your right to point out that the court case is not being pursued by Holyrood….. But I think that they are onboard with it….otherwise Joanna Cherry wouldn’t be involved.

      I think because we all follow events closely we are a wee bit more aware of just how much Scotland needs to get out of this Union, and of the way we are being asset stripped before we do.

      And yes I am pretty sure there’s a plan too,I’m just posting my take on what I think is going on,and hopefully putting a positive view on it while we play this waiting game!
      It will all be worth it in the end though.. don’t ye think!

    277. heedtracker says:

      Now, I know that this doesn’t “compute” with your sweeping stereotyping of all, and every non-SNP voter (btw, I can’t vote for the SNP), and this will not change what you write one bit …. because you are an idiot. Hey ho!

      It may feel hey ho sensible but your tory vote is worth infinitely more than any Scottish vote, in this farce union. Its an immoral or at least amoral tory vote too, to put it as nicely as possible, all of it held together somehow by a massive wall of professional liars and spin docs, revolving round your epicentre neo fascist beeb gimp network, none of whom would never admit to being neo fascist, its not like they all goose step down the Mall is it sensible d.

      You English tories rule Scotland like you own it, because you do. The idea of giving up control of Scotland for an English or Scottish toryboy is absolutely abhorrent and that’s why you’re here.

    278. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 23:50:

      It will all be worth it in the end though.. don’t ye think!

      Aye, fairly ‘at!

      Maybe one thing to do in IR2 is gently remind those former “no” voters who right after the IR1 result understood just like us what a truly beautiful chance they had so weakly thrown away, and immediately felt bad about they had done…

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top