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The Scottish Brexit FAQ

Posted on December 20, 2016 by

We’ll be honest with you, readers, we’re not looking forward to 2017 one little bit. It’s going to be the most tedious year in Scottish politics since we started this website, and perhaps since the advent of devolution.

Other than the mild distraction of the council elections in May – which are likely to be a bit of a damp squib due to the deadening effect of STV and the propensity of Labour and the Tories to do deals to keep the SNP out of power – pretty much nothing even a little bit interesting is going to happen.


All we ARE going to hear about is Brexit and the EU, over and over and over and over again, and everything we’re going to hear is the same empty, pointless, space-filling speculation we’ve already been hearing since June. So let’s just get it down, and then we can link to it every week and go and do something useful with our time instead.


You know there won’t, we know there won’t, everyone and their dog knows there won’t. The Scottish Government is obliged to put forward proposals for solutions that respect Scotland’s almost-2-to-1 vote to stay in, but however sincerely it does so they’ll be ignored. The UK government has made that abundantly and repeatedly clear:





The practicalities for such an arrangement would be extremely challenging even if there was political will for it outside Scotland, and there isn’t.


The EU is extremely sympathetic to Scotland’s desire to stay in, and would welcome an independent Scotland with open arms.


But it can’t do it from inside the UK. Which means…


Because there can’t NOT be. In 2014 and 2016 Scots voted for two things that they can’t have both of, so sooner or later they’re going to have to choose one or the other. Nicola Sturgeon couldn’t hope to survive failing to bring forward another indyref after the inevitable failure of “special deal” proposals, and the UK government refusing one would be political suicide.

It’s no use Unionists whining that Scotland voted to stay in the UK so it has to accept UK decisions. Scotland voted to stay in a UK that was a member of the EU, and that UK no longer exists. The 2014 decision was made on a blatantly and unarguably false premise and has been overtaken by events.








If Scotland wishes to stay in a Brexit UK – and it may well do so – its people must be given the opportunity to make that decision based on the truth about what they’re choosing. And they will, most likely in spring 2019. But that’s a while yet.


In the second independence referendum, a Yes vote will beyond any shred of rational or credible doubt be the stability vote, the internationalist vote, and the economically sensible vote. (Many of us will of course feel that it was those things in 2014 too, but now the counter-argument will simply look farcical.)

Bizarrely, the main Unionist position against this is to endlessly repeat the mantra “but Scotland trades far more with the rest of the UK than it does with Europe”. and insist that there would be a damaging “hard border” between Scotland and England hurting that trade, even as they insist that there WOULDN’T be one between a post-Brexit UK and EU-member Ireland.




But even if it were true that Scotland trades more with the rUK than the EU (and it’s far from clear that it is, because nobody’s sure how much of Scotland’s “UK” trade is actually goods simply stopping off in England on the way to Europe), so what? Why would Scotland and the rUK stop trading with each other – or impose punitive tariffs – if Scotland either had a separate EU status or was an independent country? In whose interests would that be? Certainly not the rUK’s.

(It’s sometimes been suggested that there would have to be border posts because of immigration, but the same Ireland point still applies, as does the fact that immigration policing doesn’t start and end at border crossings. And how many immigrants would in any event want to leave Scotland, where they were wanted by the government and welcome to stay and work legally, in order to get to an England where they’d be hated, hunted, vilified, attacked and even murdered?)



Amid the thousands of acres of newsprint and uncountable hours of airtime that will be devoted next year to Brexit and its implications for Scotland, nothing will change any of these three fundamental facts.

Everyone knows them already, but pages and schedules will have to be filled so we’ll have to endure the same old faces honking the same old lines on all sides for month after month until we’re ready to hurl ourselves off tall buildings at the first mention of the words “EU” or “Brexit”, if we’re not already.

2017 will be a year of going through the motions, an elaborate and hollow charade in which pretty much every participant knows they’re wasting their time for the sake of appearances before knuckling down to the reality in 2018 and 2019. Get yourselves a few good books, folks.

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    1. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      22 December, 2016 at 11:20 am
      heedtracker says:

      If they’re lucky, they might get a Norway EFTA style deal. Then it’s over to tory BBC and chums to brainwash all the UKIPers out there that’s a truly magnificent, historic, glorious victory for teamGB.

    2. sensibledave says:

      Tam Jardine 11.01

      You wrote “You ignore the fact that other EU member states do not want the EU to disintegrate”

      No I don’t Tam. It is clearly a significant issue that will be a factor in whatever the ultimate outcome of negotiations proves to be.

      It isn’t a slam dunk though is it. I agree that if the UK achieves an exit without ramifications then that could cause disquiet in the club. On the other hand though, putting the whole of the EU into recession just to make a political point will be extremely problematic for individual governments of EU counties.

      The EU has a £70 Billion trade surplus with the UK and some of them, notably Germany and France, have economies that are enormously susceptible to volume changes with the UK. The current relative weakness of the pound against the Euro is already a problem for their competitiveness. Add another 10% to their prices and the likes of Merc, BMW, VW, Renault, Peugeot, Seat, Fiat, Alfa, (and that is just the car manufacturers) etc, will have big problems. Jaguar, Mini, Nissan and Honda in the UK would love that.

      If I had to bet, I’m betting on some sort of ineffectual fudge on Trade that leaves us at, or near to, tariff free trade with the EU as the outcome. Anything else would be economic suicide for the EU.

      The UK government has a mandate from the electorate to take us out of the EU. The EU does not have a mandate from the various electorates to trash their economies to make a point – or to start a trade war with one of the biggest economies in the world.

      BTW – I didn’t vote “Leave”!

    3. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T As we start another lap of our Star, I would like to wish everybody a good and prosperous New Year. I don’t send out cards as I don’t believe in the superstitions of Iron Age Goat Herders . however , in lieu of spending money on dead trees and raising the profits of a private company I send a monthly donation to a charity called Medical aid for Palestine , which gives kids much needed Healthcare in that oppressed land.

      So hope you all have a great time over the next few weeks of Solstice celebrations whatever imaginary friend you follow. (Or none)

      Apologies for double post earlier, WordPress strikes again!

    4. Andrew McLean says:

      Proud Cybernat

      #6: “Indy Scotland would not get organ transplants from rUK.”

      Actually I think Gordon Brown said and I may have misheard “on the subject of Blood donations, and indeed Organ transplants, imagine a child dying on a hospital bed in Dumfries, well the hospital in Carlisle will have blood or an organ available but the staff will stand on the border, laugh into the faces of the dying child’s mum and dad, and with the help of the armed English troops pour the blood onto the pavement and dance on it, I am a sun of the manse and I talk to God you know”

      least that’s how it sounded to me. And he says he would never join ISIS? strange man!

    5. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      22 December, 2016 at 11:33 am
      Tam Jardine 11.01

      Is there anything yoonbats wont Project Fear sensibledave.

      That’s not a question. Middle and upper class UK is not going to stop buying Mercs, beemers and Audis.

    6. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave “If I had to bet, I’m betting on some sort of ineffectual fudge on Trade that leaves us at, or near to, tariff free trade with the EU as the outcome. Anything else would be economic suicide for the EU.

      Four freedoms SD, four freedoms. Or no deal. As well as the EU-27, there’s the EFTA-3 all in the EEA, and Switzerland with a bi-;ateral agreement, and there’s not a snowflake’s chance in a turkey roast of any of them allowing that kind of special deal with the UK that allows single (internal) market access or anything like it, without them.

      While Switzerland is not part of the EEA, it remains a member of EFTA. More than 120 sectoral bilateral treaties linking the country with the EU incorporate largely the same provisions as those adopted by the other EEA countries in the fields of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital. However, bilateral relations have been severely strained since the February 2014 anti-immigration initiative, the outcome of which called into question the principles of free movement and the single market that underpin those relations.

      Unless the UK allows freedom of movement, it’s sunk.

    7. sensibledave says:

      yesindyref2 at 11:04 am

      Whato yesinyref2!

      You wrote “Google United Kingdom and click on the map. Zoom right out and compare the size of the whole of the UK compared with the world. Think about a population of 500 million compared with 64 million in the UK. Think further about the rest of Europe, and the other continents, and a world population of 7 billion compared with 64 million, and then tell me the EU will be bowing down and scraping its knees to please the UK.

      Quite frankly my dear, it don’t give a damn.”

      You are just plain wrong sir/madam!

      Those countries and markets have been there all along and we are where we are. The EU has trade deals with some but not with others – and never will have (if they insist on things like free movement, EU human rights courts and EU style benefits and pension rights). China, India, parts of Africa???? It is those countries that represent most of the billions and markets to whom your numbers refer.

      I think many people on Wings want/need to believe that the EU hold all the cards, so that they believe the EU will “win” the negotiations and the outcome, then the UK will go into recession whilst the EU prospers – and that will somehow help the cause for Scottish Independence.

      Regardless of how I voted in the EU referendum, I do not believe that scenario will play out. There will undoubtedly be changes, some for the better and some for the worse – but we will exit the EU and we will have a good trading relationship with them afterwards – after all the kicking and screaming.

    8. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      If they’re lucky, they might get a Norway EFTA style deal. Then it’s over to tory BBC and chums to brainwash all the UKIPers out there that’s a truly magnificent, historic, glorious victory for teamGB.

      I think that is a likely outcome, to be honest.

      One nagging reservation. Will it be punishment/deterrent enough? I think it is essential for the future of the EU that whatever happens to the UK is something which others see as off putting – a route not to be taken!

      Will, still having to pay contributions to the EU but with no input to decisions be sufficient?

      One thing certainly would appeal to many across Europe – the dissolution of the UK. Ireland reunifying. Scotland becoming independent. I’m not suggesting they will actively encourage that, however if some people of these isles chose to put EU before UK, then I expect the path to be smoothed.

    9. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 22 December, 2016 at 1:48 am:

      “Had a wee chuckle at the irony of NI by strict definition not being in Great Britain. British, but not Great British. Cruel things words… lol”

      Indeed so, Breeks.

      Westminster has been heavy on the propaganda of that kind for many centuries. They have always, for example, used the term, “Union of the Crowns”, to define the King of Scots becoming also the king of the Kingdom of England.

      They have always referred to the Jacobite uprisings against the independent English Parliament’s decision to depose their monarchy and import a foreign monarch as, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, but the Scottish Jacobites, (and there were many English Jacobites), could not be rebelling against an independent English monarchy as Scotland had not deposed their monarchy.

      I’ve been hammering away at how important it is to differentiate between the terms Britain, Great Britain, The British Isles and the United Kingdom for years.

      There is absolutely no doubt that Westminster has always done their best to insure that the general public have no clear idea of what the individual terms actually refer to.

      The World’s worst in that respect is/was David Cameron who liberally, (or should that perhaps be Conservatively with a capital “C”.), sprinkled his speeches with wrong designations of the terms, “Britain”, “British”, “The Country”, “The whole country”, and even, “his country”.

      To the extent that no one, not least Cameron himself, knew what the hell he was talking about. It usually was, of course, The United Kingdom.

      Even then Cameron confused matters even further by calling himself, “The British Prime Minister”, and calling the United Kingdom Government, “The British Government”. Not to mention his use of the term, “British armed forces”).

      Such is the dire standard of teachings in the English public Schools system that they teach future political leaders to use such total gobbledegook as the English language.

      Propaganda is alive and well and dwells in the palace of Westminster. Almost everyone picks up on the more obvious propaganda but these deliberate linguistic errors are far more corrosive and effective than all of the more obvious propaganda put together.

      While almost everyone can spot the more obvious stuff, like how the Murray Brothers are British when they win but revert to being Scots when they lose.

      Yet the use of the wrong terms for the component parts of the British Isles is so insidious and sadly also often misused by even Scottish independence supporters themselves.

      Such is the Westminster propaganda that has been with every living Scot since the day they were born as one of the people of Scotland.

      We can turn off the English owned TV, radio and computer propaganda but it is much harder to turn off everyday conversation and hardest of all for us to turn off our own wrong use of these linguistic terms we have been subject to since our birth.

    10. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s nothing to do with thinking “the EU hold all the cards, so that they believe the EU will “win” the negotiations and the outcome, then the UK will go into recession whilst the EU prospers – and that will somehow help the cause for Scottish Independence.

      It’s all to do with the UK being just one European state, albeit one with 10% of the EU economy – and population.

      If I had 27 partners or customers all on the same deal, and one even with 10% of my business demands special terms, making the rest unhappy, I reluctantly say “no, sorry”. Or all the rest will want special terms as well.

    11. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 11:30 am

      You Wrote “If they’re lucky, they might get a Norway EFTA style deal”

      Time will tell Heedy but I am willing to bet that “free movement” isnt part of the deal we eventually agree. Again, I think that is wishful thinking on your behalf because you want to believe that because that will cause political issues in England

      When Mendolez or Proctor and Gamble do deals with their customers, they do one type of deal with a corner shop – and another type with Tesco. In this analogy, Norway and Switzerland are the corner shops – the UK is is Tesco. If the Mendolez don’t have a deal with Tesco, then they will seriously affect their own business. Tesco will beat them up on the price, they will get better deals – they have more buying power.

      Of course, Mendolez can withdraw their products from Tesco and tesco’s business would, by degree, be damaged too. But what’s the point? They both need each other so they will do a deal that they both can do.

      The EU knows, in the end, that insisting on free movement is not going to result in a deal so pragmatism will be the result. The EU recently signed a trade deal with Canada. Free movement is not part of the deal. QED!

    12. Andrew McLean says:

      sensibledave says:
      I was going to ignore your post, especialy with the whato, whats that supposed to be, I worked in england for years and never once, actually forget it!

      what got me was this

      “There will undoubtedly be changes, some for the better and some for the worse – but we will exit the EU and we will have a good trading relationship with them afterwards – after all the kicking and screaming.”

      There is a smidgen of truth in this, but as ever David your broad brush cannot hide this, change will happen, yes, but there is a price to be paid, the losers will pay with their jobs, their standard of living, the Rich, the Mega rich for whom national boundary’s are irrelevant, their money off shore, will be glad of the cheap labour, the household servants exempt as they are usually from Asia anyway.

      The workers left now competing with India and China on pay rates will be kicking and screaming.

      And you David, you will be hoping and praying one of us signs your application for a Scottish European Passport.

    13. galamcennalath says:

      Telegraph, Spain rejects Nicola Sturgeon Brexit plan for Scotland in seemingly fatal blow

      I always knew the Telegraph was right wing, it’s been the Torygraph for a long time.

      I used to assume its readers tended to be better informed that those of the tabloids.

      I thought its content, while right biased, was at least analytical and facts based.

      Now, it seems to have completely lost the plot and sounds more like the Express or Mail on the same quest to turn Greater England into an isolationist sub-fascist state.

    14. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      22 December, 2016 at 11:54 am
      heedtracker says:

      EU is NOT the teetering on the edge, about to collapse mess that our hideous media says it is.

      Yes there are fringe Farage style lunatics in the EU, France has one really nasty nazi for example. Holland’s just shut down their Farage headcase.

      But its only planet toryboy teamGB where the whole concept of a dying EU is foisted on all of us. All of which makes sense considering what the Leave project has been based on.

      Tory UK detests the EU because its their worst nightmare, democracy they cant control. Its that simple. A reprobate like Murdoch really can make the UK vote how he says, but he’s got none of that power across the EU. All of which is great for your average shire tory of merry olde England. That ghastly Rees Mogg’s a classic example of a toryboy that detests the EU for the odds reasons and the biggest ones too. His class can’t control working class Europe.

      So now we’re out and Britannia will rule the waves once again, with their favoured cringers and loyalists in their Scotland region, holding down the vile seps, for ever.

    15. sensibledave says:


      You wrote “If I had 27 partners or customers all on the same deal, and one even with 10% of my business demands special terms, making the rest unhappy, I reluctantly say “no, sorry”. Or all the rest will want special terms as well.”

      You are confused sir/madam. The deal you refer to where 27 customers all have the same deal – is the one for the club members. They have done some other deals with affiliate members (Norway and Switzerland).

      The UK, I assume, will take the position that it isn’t a club member or an affiliate member – it is like Canada or the USA. Free movement will not be part of any deal.

      I think your problem is that you are not accepting that we are leaving the EU. So, think of it as we have left the EU. We are independent and we are free to agree a totally new deal.

      We are not negotiating some sort of partial or affiliate club membership – we are negotiating as a very large, independent, proven, convenient, attractive potential market for the EU 20 miles off their coast and where the EU currently has a £70 billion trade surplus.

      Why has the EU done a trade deal with Canada that doent include free movement?

    16. Andrew McLean says:

      come on old chap it isn’t ratified till Feb 2017

      Oh and whats this in the deal,

      “Each Party shall not adopt or maintain limitations on the total number of key personnel of the other Party allowed temporary entry, in the form of a numerical restriction or an economic needs test.”

      That’s how it starts David , big business moving workers around!

    17. heedtracker says:

      The EU knows, in the end, that insisting on free movement is not going to result in a deal so pragmatism will be the result. The EU recently signed a trade deal with Canada. Free movement is not part of the deal. QED!

      There will still be free movement sensible. Its just going to be sold as something else and as a good thing, for Britannia, who loves foreigners really.

      Its not about causing political issues either sensible.

      England and or the UK are not that different from the City and UK banking. Its too big to fail. And that’s all that the Brexiteers have up their sleeves. £2 tn national UK debt, just under control but probably not UK deficit, all of which can drag teamGB into the abyss.

      Its not like its never happened sensible. Google IMF, and the UK. And what’s dragged the UK away from IMF bailouts sensibledave? 30 or 40 years of EU membership prosperity.

      And now a pack of super rich toryboys, fronted by a fascist like Farage and a corrupt tory BBC, have all waltzed the UK out, cheered on by people who have nothing.

      Its certainly not a coincidence that the 2016 Heil Trump campaign, exactly matches 2016 Leave, is it sensible?

    18. Sinky says:

      Iain MacWhirter in the Herald

      Brexit vote means 2016 will be known as year the Union died

      We can only hope so.

      First Minister is on fire at FMQs as she put Ruthie in her place over Police VAT bill pointing out that centrally funded Academies in England were recently specifically exempted from VAT

    19. sensibledave says:

      Andrew McLean 12:10 pm

      Andrew, you miss the point completely (as is often the case).

      I am not arguing for Brexit. I am not arguing that Brexit is a good thing. I am not arguing we will be better off economically afterwards.

      I am arguing that anyone should see that this is a negotiation (that I didnt vote for) where both parties have economic realities to deal with.

      It is possible I am wrong (I was wrong once. I thought I was wrong about something but it turned out I was right all along). I merely note that every comment from Wingers above assumes that the UK will suffer economically and that this is desirable somehow because it is believed that it will help the cause of Scottish Independence.

      What if it goes the other way? What if the smudge deal involves tariff free trade plus an annual fee to buy that tariff free trade – but no free movement?

      Arguably, it currently costs the UK a net £10 Billion pounds per annum, the acceptance of free movement, acceptance of the superiority of the European courts membership, etc – to have “Free trade”.

      What if it only costs us £10 billion for “free” trade?

      I think I could “sell” that deal to the UK electorate.

    20. Breeks says:

      @ Sensibledave.
      We’re not even on the same hymn book, never mind page Dave.

      You hold on to your 2014 referendum result like a life jacket, because frankly, it’s all you’ve got.

      From my perspective, it’s nothing but ill gotten gains. It’s the result of a manipulated news and political narrative which was eminently successful, not in promoting the case for Union, nor even articulating the Unionist arguments. The only success it can boast is preventing Scotland’s constitutional argument from taking place. The only word for that in my vocabulary is subversion.

      You won a vote in a corrupt and truncated process which did not address practically ANY feature of Scotland’s constitutional dissatisfaction. If Unionism had won the argument, then won its case, and then won the vote to ratify the concluded discussion, then Scotland’s constitutional will would have been settled, and settled for the generation you continually whine about. Yet here we are, 2 years down the line and already in the countdown to another constitutional debate. The 2014 “referendum” settled nothing. Not a thing. It advanced nothing. Every injustice and misrepresentation present before the YES referendum remains, and still remains, unresolved and festering. Some victory.

      So go ahead. You keep hold of your 2014 life vest. You all worked very hard to purloin it. Keep it. Wear it with pride. In fact I insist you wear it and be known by it. You can sing and dance about democracy, and the need to “respect” the once in a generation result. I mean it Dave. Sing and dance in the street. It doesn’t rile me in the slightest, because it counts for nothing. If you, and Unionists like you had any grace or integrity, you would look upon as the 2013/14 process as a disgusting betrayal of Scotland’s right to debate its own affairs unsullied and unfettered by the rabid intervention of Unionist propaganda sponsored by Westminster. But you don’t Dave do you? The end justifies the means is your ticket. Not for me. For me, 2014 is nothing but a benchmark for the complete absence of integrity in British Unionism. To present 2014 as a “victory” says nothing to me beyond a warning that the Britnats don’t even recognise their own psychosis.

      In 2014, I was motivated to engage in discussions and debates about Scotland’s constitutional future, because I respected people’s right to hold a different perspective from my own, and surprise surprise, I still do. But something changed after 2014. I recognised there are Unionists who would gleefully stifle reasoned debate and enlightened (and enlightening) discussion. The delicious irony is that such people, like yourself, have as much contempt for the Union as I do. They don’t believe in a Union of two equal Kingdoms. Instead you believe in all that Unionist shite, not the real Union, but a bastardised Union, defined by one Kingdom’s suppression by another. See your problem Dave? You’re not even faithfull to Unionism, and you don’t even see that inconsistency either. You’re a sock puppet Dave, and that’s about all. There’s Sooty, there’s Sweep, there’s Orville the duck, then there’s you, dressed up in the Union Jack.

      I feel sorry for the depth of your delusion that you might think you and I have anything in common or share any common perspective. We don’t.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      Picked off Twitter …

      “Brexit forces all the ambiguities of our unfinished constitutional business to the surface. Issues currently parked in the ‘too difficult’ tray will suddenly become pressing concerns.”

      …. I don’t find much to disagree with in that article. It’s much as I would see events unfolding.

    22. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Breeks said.

    23. yesindyref2 says:

      You seem to have a serious comprehension problem, reading what’s not there, and not reading what is. Including your own contradictory postings.

      If the UK wants the same deal as the USA might or Canada might, or Australia might, then of course there’s a good chance it’ll get it though note that TTIP after all these years isn’t going down too well, either in the EU or the USA now with Trump.

      But if the rUK wants tariff-free and non-tariff tariff free deals near to what it has in the single market, so there’s no tariffs on cars from Germany as you claim is important to them: “If Merkel wants to put up the price of Mercedes, VW, Audi and BMW cars by 10% in the UK then that is within her gift.“, then it’s not a TTIP type of agreement you’re thinking of, it’s a single market deal.

      Make your mind up, is it single market or TTIP type of trade deal, or do you want to argue all things, just for the sake of it, and some silly frustrated snide remarks?

      And I’d rescind that bet if I was you (friendly advice), I know a man who will put you on the spot for it – and enforce payment afterwards.

    24. Croompenstein says:

      Totally agree with Breeks the hollow victory of 2014 for unionists cannot be understated. They shat themselves at the secret poll and proceeded to ride a coach and horses through the Edinburgh agreement and eventually break the law by ignoring purdah.

    25. yesindyref2 says:

      As far as CETA is concerned, I suggest you read this:

      And note that CETA is not even through the European Parliament, let alone ratified by all EU 28 or 27 member states.

    26. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks (12.34) –

      Hear hear.

    27. Tackety Beets says:

      Aye , well said Breeks @ 12.34

      “Sock” it to ’em

    28. Tackety Beets says:

      Sinky Post need repeating

      “First Minister is on fire at FMQs as she put Ruthie in her place over Police VAT bill pointing out that centrally funded Academies in England were recently specifically exempted from VAT ”

      What ….. WTF Engerland again

    29. Sinky says:

      The unionist media are in denial about it, but a second independence referendum moved even closer this week

    30. Bill Cochrane says:

      Breeks @ 12.34

      Wow!!! Awesome post. I could have said something similar but would have to have used an awful lot of sweary words. When were an independent republic, I know who I’m voting for president.

    31. galamcennalath says:


      Well said, Sir! 🙂

    32. MolliBlum says:

      What @Breeks said.

    33. sensibledave says:

      Breeks 12.34

      You wrote: “You won a vote in a corrupt and truncated process which did not address practically ANY feature of Scotland’s constitutional dissatisfaction.”

      Wrong on every count Breeks. And that my friend is your problem – i.e. your trench mentality where everyone is “against you”. As a result of that total misconception – you completely miscalculate everything else.

      I DIDNT WIN IN A CORRUPT AND TRUNCATED anything!” I am nobody. I live in England, I didnt vote in the scottish referendum, I am not a hack, a politician or an activist of any sort and I didnt “fight” for anyone or anything in the referendum.

      I did vote in the General election for the UK Parliament and I am almost certain I didnt vote the same way as you in that election. After the vote were counted, it turns out the Tory party were able to form a government. In the one before that it was a Liberal and Conservative government and in the one before that it was a labour government. In the recent EU referendum I did not vote to leave (nor did 60% of folk around me).

      All those votes happened – and I accept the outcome without wishing ill on those that voted another way. With respect to the EU referendum, we are now going to be leaving. So, as a democrat, I accept that and look to seek to make the best of it. In each case I accepted the democratic outcome. That is where we differ I suspect

      You, like much of the Labour party and Liberals in England desperately want and need economic failure now. They want the negotiations to be difficult, they want to frighten people (project fear?) they want only to portray and concentrate on the downsides. In other words, they would like ordinary folk to suffer – in order to boost they political prospects of their preferred party!

      You just don’t get it do you Breeks. I had nothing whatsoever to do with the outcome of the vote in Scotland. But your logic appears to be because I take issue with things written here, I must therefore be a Unionist, an EU “leaver” and also anti- Scottish Independence?

      yesindyref2 12.52

      Again, you miss the point completely. I am not “for” any existing model! We are unique, we are in a unique position, we are hugely important to the EU exporters, we are 20 miles away, we have existing trading relationships that are very important to both sides.

      With respect to the CETA deal, these are the highlights from the website …..

      CETA will:

      remove customs duties

      help make European firms more competitive in Canada

      make it easier for EU firms to bid for Canadian public contracts
      open up the Canadian services market to EU companies

      open up markets for European food and drink exports

      protect traditional European food and drink products (known as Geographical Indications) from being copied

      cut EU exporters’ costs without cutting standards

      benefit small and medium-sized EU firms

      benefit EU consumers

      make it easier for European professionals to work in Canada

      allow for the mutual recognition of some qualifications

      create predictable conditions for both EU and Canadian investors

      make it easier for European firms to invest in Canada

      help Europe’s creative industries, innovators and artists
      support people’s rights at work and the environment.

      With CETA, the EU and Canada pledge to ensure that economic growth, social issues and environmental protection go hand in hand

      …. I can see absolutely nothing there that the UK government, or electorate, wouldn’t be happy with! Combine that with zero tariffs either way (or even an annual fee from us of some sort) and you are home and hosed!

      … you are not thinking straight indyref

    34. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…I didnt vote in the scottish referendum, I am not a hack, a politician or an activist of any sort and I didnt “fight” for anyone or anything in the referendum…”

      Aye sure. That’s why you’re not here spending your time not here on a Scottish Independence supporting web site.

      You’re kidding no one, laddie, you being not here.

    35. Ken500 says:

      Police Scotland should stop putting people in cells over night on ‘charges’ which can never go to Court. 50% of ‘charges’ cannot go to court. Before the Police investigated and then charged, Now they ‘charge’ or put people in cells and then investigate. Back to front. Before they would give a warning for mild misdemeanours. Is it to put up ‘arrest’ targets? The Police should have more training in ‘Scots’ Law. Stop Orange Marches. How much does policing cost? They might get a week end off.

    36. Proud Cybernat says:

      …which is why you are NOTHING BUT A TROLL!!

    37. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh dear: “yesindyref2 – Again, you miss the point completely.” and “you are not thinking straight indyref“.

      That, my friend, is a standard tactic used by someone who has lost the debate, and lost the plot.

      As far as the point you’re trying to make it seems to be that the EU will bend over backwards to accomodate the UK, even at the risk of hacking off all of its 27 members, the 3 members of EFTA, Switzerland, Canada, the US, Australia, and all the rest of the 120, 130 countries it has trade treaties with RIGHT NOW.

      As for CETA being a model, perhaps you should look up what the UK Government and others have already said about that as a model. Clue: it ain’t what you imply by “we are in a unique position, we are hugely important to the EU exporters“.

      As I said, the UK is a small group of islands off the north-western coast of mainland Europe which contains the EU. We’re just another country the EU does business with. No, we’re nothing special. No point in puffing ourselves up like a peacock, sensibledave. We’re just a shade of grey.

    38. Ken500 says:

      The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies.

      350Million market with higher transport costs will not replace a 450Million market. Or the Grants and investment Scotland gets from the EU, often blocked by Westminster indecision.

    39. Marie Clark says:

      Well said Breeks. Agree with every word.

    40. Fred says:

      The cold-shouldering of Theresa May in Brussels symbolises England’s future, friendless & ignored on a rock with the Welsh with “Rule Britannia” on a loop! Why would we want that?

    41. Lenny Hartley says:

      Sensible Dave at 1.42

      U said We are unique,we are in an unique position, I say you forgot the bit about we are delusional!

      breeks at 12.34 well said

    42. CmonIndy says:

      There’s not been much comment on a particular exchange between Nicola and Kezia at Holyrood.
      Nicola indicated that she knew (and that Kezia knew she knew) that Kezia had leanings towards Independence- that’s not an exact quote but something like that. Need to check the video.
      I found that to be quite significant.
      As pressure builds I don’t think BLiS are 100% going to stay as Unionists.

    43. yesindyref2 says:

      I should have added: “And one which not only doesn’t want to be part of the club, but is LEAVING it with a lot of nasty comments about the club”.

      Just leave the membership card on the way out, close the door behind you.

    44. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      What’s worrying is that May, Davis and all the merry crew have the same delusion. “Great Britain, the centre of the known universe”, and I see the same thing in postings from Brexiteers – or Remainers.

      No, as far as the UK is concerned it might be unique, but as far as the other 195 countries are concerned it’s just another country, an important one, but there are others.

    45. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, and it’s why I’m reluctant to slag off Labour. Left alone they may be able to reconsider their position. Antagonised and they’ll get their backs up. I’ve noticed the Unionist press putting up articles which seem to me to be designed to encourage “cybernats” to attack Labour.

      Tories, now that’s different, they’re fair game! Or unfair come to that.

    46. Fireproofjim says:

      Sensibledave and replies are taking up far too much of this thread. I don’t mind hearing the Unionist argument but this is just repetitive and going round in boring circles.

    47. sensibledave says:

      Indyref 1.57

      You wrote: “As I said, the UK is a small group of islands off the north-western coast of mainland Europe which contains the EU. We’re just another country the EU does business with. No, we’re nothing special”

      So indyref, in your continued efforst to do us down, underestimate our bargaining position and generally, tell untruths – you become a fact free zone! I have already cut and paste the CETA highlights – which are fine, and now I have to show you a list of GDP in 000, Biliions (the tabbing may lose something on the cut and paste) ….

      United States 18,561.934 24.7 1
      China 11,391.619 15.1 2
      Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3
      Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4
      United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5
      France 2,488.284 3.31 6
      India 2,250.987 2.99 7
      Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8
      Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9
      Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10
      Korea 1,404.383 1.87 11
      Russia 1,267.754 1.69 12
      Australia 1,256.640 1.67 13
      Spain 1,252.163 1.66 14
      Mexico 1,063.606 1.41 15
      Indonesia 940.953 1.25 16
      Netherlands 769.930 1.02 17
      Turkey 735.716 0.978 18
      Switzerland 662.483 0.881 19
      Saudi Arabia 637.785 0.848 20
      Argentina 541.748 0.720 21
      Taiwan Province of China 519.149 0.690 22
      Sweden 517.440 0.688 23
      Belgium 470.179 0.625 24
      Poland 467.350 0.621 25
      Nigeria 415.080 0.552 26
      Islamic Republic of Iran 412.304 0.548 27
      Thailand 390.592 0.519 28
      Austria 387.299 0.515 29
      Norway 376.268 0.500 30

      Let me help you with the relevant bits. Norway is the 30th biggest economy in the world with $346.6 Billion. Switzerland 19th with $662.5 Billion and Canada 10th with 1,532.3 Billion.

      The UK is 5th – only behind United States, China, Japan and Germany with $2,646.9 Billion. That makes nearly twice as big as Canada, 4 times as big as Switzerland and over 6 times bigger than Norway.

      Furthermore, in terms of EU imports in 2015

      Canada imported 28.3 Billion
      Norway 74.3 Billion
      Switzerland 160.0 Billion
      UK 290.0 billion

      …. i.e. the EU exports more to the UK than to Canada, Norway and Switzerland put together!

      I really hope you don’t run a business indyref! You clearly demonstrate that you couldn’t negotiate your way out of a paper bag!

      We are not “special” indyref – but we are very important. Get that in to your thick head.

    48. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave “I really hope you don’t run a business indyref! You clearly demonstrate that you couldn’t negotiate your way out of a paper bag!

      We are not “special” indyref – but we are very important. Get that in to your thick head.

      What an insulting brainless prick you are, you’re red-carded.

    49. heedtracker says:

      Canada imported 28.3 Billion
      Norway 74.3 Billion
      Switzerland 160.0 Billion
      UK 290.0 billion

      So why is England so desperate to not lose control of Scotland sensible, if it such a big economy, propped up giant borrowing?

    50. Fred says:

      Anent the Rev & his predictions, he would do well to remember Pishstradamus & his.

    51. sassenach says:

      Really, folks, we must stop feeding the troll

    52. sensibledave says:

      Yesindyref 2.37

      … Me “brainless”???

      ….. You are the nitwit that wrote “As I said, the UK is a small group of islands off the north-western coast of mainland Europe which contains the EU. We’re just another country the EU does business with. No, we’re nothing special”

      No indyref, were are nothing special – just more important to the EU economy than Canada, Norway and Switzerland put together.

      Perhaps if you engaged your brain before typing, you might actually write something helpful to the debate instead of just doing the “everyone but SNP are Baaad” thing.

    53. heedtracker says:

      sassenach says:
      22 December, 2016 at 2:47 pm
      Really, folks, we must stop feeding the troll

      Awe! We cant go out to play, have you seen the weather outside…

      Anyway it would be great to hear why a toryboy Britnat like sensible is so actually so terrified of a PR democracy like Scotland, prospering away, and not reigned over by Westminster, Lords, royals, tory BBC led media goon show etc.

      And yes, we know sensibledave, you britnat toryboys only want what the majority of those Brits in your Scotland region of greater England, really wants. Coz youre all so democratic n shit, you great big Christmas dingdong.

    54. Lenny Hartley says:

      SD as well as being delusional like a lot of your political leaders , you have not got a clue, the UK out of the EU single market with no passporting rights then London Financial Marget which is the world centre of corruption and money laundering will take a massive hit, With Scotland gone your GDP will be further hit by hundreds of billions a year. With the trillions of pounds of Scotland’s assets no longer supporting the pound, the pound is going to tank big time. When the IMF come calling , (they know how to get there having been before Scots oil bailed out the UK ) ,interest rates and inflation will rise , England will be in a downward spiral, foreclosure on Mortgages, strikes, riots.
      yes you are unique, you are also fucked. Happy Cristmas .

    55. sensibledave says:


      So sassenach, I assume, by your definition, a “troll” is someone who deals in facts and actual thought.

      I note that no one is jumping in to support indyref’s “position” that the EU sees the UK has some irrelevant, distant atoll of no consequence to their economic welfare.

      And Heedy …..

      Please, try and keep up. We were talking about Brexit!

    56. geeo says:

      ‘Sensible’dave said this…

      “What if it goes the other way? What if the smudge deal involves tariff free trade plus an annual fee to buy that tariff free trade – but no free movement?

      Arguably, it currently costs the UK a net £10 Billion pounds per annum, the acceptance of free movement, acceptance of the superiority of the European courts membership, etc – to have “Free trade”.

      What if it only costs us £10 billion for “free” trade?

      I think I could “sell” that deal to the UK electorate”.
      Talk about delusional!

      Tariff free trade bought with an annual fee to BUY that tariff free trade is, by the simplest of definitions, NOT tariff free, but lets pretend it happens.

      The uk government has PAID a fee so business can trade tariff free, but now the public purse is out of pocket to the tune of £Billions. The uk government will simply bump up business tax rates to recoup EVERY PENNY and likely, MORE.

      So the price of tariff free trade under your ‘plan’ would be that instead of businesses who trade in the EU paying a tariff premium, the new business tax premium would be paid by EVERY uk business, whether they trade with the EU or not.

      Good luck selling THAT fiscal abortion to the uk business sector.

    57. yesindyref2 says:

      I think this must be a different sensibledave, the other one was quite polite generally, wasn’t puffed up with self-importance, could hold an argument, and wasn’t just an insulting brainless blinkered little prick.

      I guess it’s the raw recruits sent in to cover Christmas.

    58. Dan Huil says:

      Britnats continue to do the most damage to their so-called united kingdom. Delicious.

    59. heedtracker says:

      Please, try and keep up. We were talking about Brexit!

      Youre not saying anything though, other than rule britannia. Look sensibledave, gaze upon your fellow britnats of the scotland region. Its not a Glasgow panto cast either. Or is it?

    60. sassenach says:


      Indeed it must be a struggle for them to maintain a Christmas Holiday roster from their ever-decreasing pool of idiots.

      I wonder how much of that UK GDP, that senseless talks about, includes ‘well-hidden’ Scottish contributions? We’ll never know, of course, as their ‘books’ are well hidden!

    61. Les Wilson says:

      Sensible Dave,
      I posed a question to both you and your twin Phil, in a previous thread. I will ask it again, and it should be pretty easy for you to answer.
      ” Do you think Westminster is corrupt or not?”
      Again I look forward to your answer, but more in hope than expectation.

    62. sensibledave says:

      geeo 3.01

      Sorry Geeo, I assumed, wrongly, that people were keeping up and didn’t need everything explained.

      You wrote “Tariff free trade bought with an annual fee to BUY that tariff free trade is, by the simplest of definitions, NOT tariff free, but lets pretend it happens.”

      So let me start at the beginning for you.

      Our current membership of the EU which includes all the headings of rights and responsibilities, including tariff free trade, COSTS US A NET £10 BILLION! i.e it currently costs us £10 Billion to be a member of the “free trade” single market.

      I agree, that is not a free trade deal and never was. It costs us a net £10 Billion.

      So I am arguing that we could, if we wished, pay the net £10 Billion for the “free trade” agreement as we do now and as a buy out from all of the stuff we dont want. Read through the CETA headings above – they are fine.

      Have you got that now?

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Yes, it’s the passporting and financials are the problem, and that’s something CETA doesn’t have, nor any country outside the EEA. Switzerland has access to only parts of the single market, and a big omission is the vast majority of services, including finance. Norway gets it – as part of the EEA.

      Short of the four freedoms, EEA, the City of London is screwed. And what percentage of the rUK’s exports is that, compared to relatively simple goods? Important to Scotland with our food and drink exports, much less so to the rUK.

      SD’s attitude is quite typical of the smug but defiant attitude of the likes of Express posters – and writers. Plenty of abusive rhetoric, no substance or reality. They really think they can have it all, while cursing at the EU.

      In reality, if the rUK doesn’t go for the EEA, it might as well go for the full hard Brexit. Which is us in Scotland, fucked.

    64. carjamtic says:

      Correct me if I am wrong….

      Trade Agreements/Business Deals

      The Top 3 Table EU – Germany,France,u.k.

      The Top 3 Table Global – USA,China,EU

      My understanding is that due to Brexit,the u.k.’s position of ‘power’ has diminished,forget about any claims of bygone days,where u.k. allegedly held some influence ? those days if they ever existed,are gone.

      Am I wrong ?

    65. geeo says:

      To add to my last post, the notion that the EU will back down on free movement is frankly, ludicrous.

      The REALITY is this, the uk can walk into the negotiations and demand/request/beg for A,B,C right up to Z, but if the EU say No free Movement, NO DEAL, then they are fucked.

      The Uk has NOTHING to offer the EU from OUTSIDE the EU, absolutely ZERO.

      Again, the REALITY is simply this, the EU will make an offer which involves free movement of people, the Uk government will accept such a deal and try face down the fury of 17 million Leave voters and pray they do not vote Ukip en masse (not going to happen on a big enough scale imo) then pray labour win the next election to take the flack, or walk away to the hardest of hard brexits and have the ‘cliff edge’ exit that the Government are utterly desperate to avoid.

      The uk government are trying to sell a turd, polishing the turd just makes it a polished turd.

    66. Ian Brotherhood says:

      As a hypothetical to try and clear up the whole rUK/EU ‘export’ stushie (which is going to be used as a blunt instrument against us whether we like it or not) here is one bottle of whisky…

      It’s a bottle of WOS single malt, with the usual ingredients. (The costs of which are a kick-in-the-arse off zero, surely?) It’s been sitting in a bonded warehouse for a decade. We get it labelled and start flogging it.

      Someone in, say, Japan, buys a bottle of WOS malt in his local supermarket. He pays the equivalent of £20 for it.

      What % of that £20 is ours? What % goes to the UK Treasury?

      Most importantly of all, for this wee example…which country exported that whisky to Japan?

      If the UN recognises ‘UK’ as being ‘two nations, a principality and a province’ (see the Grouse Beater tweet currently doing the rounds), and bearing in mind all the palaver about proper recognition for the provenance of specific labelled goods, shouldn’t that whisky be classified as a Scottish export? If not, why not?

      This issue is being staked-out right now and the Yoons clearly like the whole rUK=4XEU formula – it’s the kind of evidence-free scaremongering they thrive on and they’re going to slap us about the chops with it from now until indy2 if we don’t establish some facts.

    67. frogesque says:

      @ sensible Dave 3.22pm

      Think you may find that 27 (28 if it includes I Scotland) states might just have something to say about your buy in buy out shake it all about proposal.

      If I’m a member of any club I get to use facilities at a member’s rate in return for my fees. Anyone not a member of said club could expect to pay considerably more for access as a visitor.

      Britannia may or may not rule the waves these days but when it comes to cold hard business it’s all about the money.

    68. Luigi says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      22 December, 2016 at 2:20 pm

      Yes, and it’s why I’m reluctant to slag off Labour. Left alone they may be able to reconsider their position. Antagonised and they’ll get their backs up. I’ve noticed the Unionist press putting up articles which seem to me to be designed to encourage “cybernats” to attack Labour.

      Tories, now that’s different, they’re fair game! Or unfair come to that.

      Indeed. The Labour party played a huge part in securing a NO vote for BT in 2014. Because Labour jumped so readily into bed with the tories in defence of the union, the MSM were able to portray the YES side as an SNP front. It was all about Alex Salmond and the SNP. People were beginning to wise up to the ploy in 2014, but sadly not enough in time for the vote.

      If only Labour could join us (or at least stay neutral), it would be so easy to give BT a taste of its own medicine and link a NO vote strongly with the tories. Unfortunately, the Labour party will continue to play the role of useful idiot/spoiler to confuse enough floaters to vote NO. As time passes, its a law of diminishing returns. Despite having suffered catastrophic damage thus far, Labour will continue to self-harm (until the end finally comes).

      There’s another reason BT will have problems next time. In pushing themselves as the defenders of the union (for short-term gain in 2016), the Scottish tories may well have sealed the fate of the union (and Labour), because they have now made it crystal clear what a NO vote means and who benefits.

      It’s sad to see the demise of a once proud Labour party in Scotland, but when push comes to shove and they are forced to make the constitutional choice, it’s always on the side of the union. They just can’t help themselves. They are British through and through. Moths and candles comes to mind.

    69. freedo says:

      Why don’t you just give it a rest? We’ve heard your crap so often now that we do not need predictive text to help us! P’haps you get paid per entry by MI5 or some such. If you need a supplement to your earnings why not apply for a funding from here? I’m sure you would get lots of support. NOT.

      I’m sorry, I should not feed the trolls. And anyway why don’t you, dave spend your time concentrating on the mess your english “government” is making of this whole issue instead of poking your nose in where it is, not only not welcome but not relevant!

      I have tried in vain to find any contribution of yours that contains anything that approximates to a positive, on either side of the argument. But then I tend to get somewhat pi**ed off reading and scroll on.

      And that is what we should do. Ignore this freak! He offers nothing…………

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      Ultimately at the end of 2 years, the UK could appeal to the ECJ of the CJEU, and if an appeal was accepted to be heard, obtain a stay of execution of exit. To present a reasonable appeal it would have to claim that the deal on the table – or no deal – was unreasonable.

      I think that’s a big factor in why the EU is setting a timetable of 18 months for negotiations. If they’re complete then fine, the UK either accepts or not. If it accepts then that’s OK, and the UK has no recourse to the ECJ. If it doesn’t agree, then it woule be reasonably expected to appeal soon after the 18 months, and well before the 2 years is up.

      And I daresay on such a major consitutional issue, the ECJ would unusually move as fast as the UKSC has on the initial case by Miller & Co. and the UK Gov appeal and the interventions.

      So that’s 2 years then, and personally I think the EU will stick to that – as is their right. Free movement is just not negotiable at all for full access to the internal market, the keyword being “internal”, not the word “single” that the media like to use so much.

    71. geeo says:

      Again ‘sensible’dave…

      You state THIS….

      “So I am arguing that we could, if we wished, pay the net £10 Billion for the “free trade” agreement as we do now and as a buy out from all of the stuff we dont want”.
      Ok, try understand the REALITY here, it is NOT in the gift of the Uk government to demand nor deliver such a deal.

      The uk can put forward such an idea but when (not if) the EU say..”no free movement no deal”, that plan is dead in the water.

      You still seem to swim with the delusion that the Uk government is in charge of the upcoming brexit negotiations, that is an utter fantasy, as is assuming that the deal you suggest would allow the uk to walk away from all the stuff they do not want.

      There is ZERO chance of the uk getting anything like the deal you suggest, in fact i am willing to bet you a punch in the face it will not get such a deal.

      Loser gets puched in the face with no defensive action allowed.. well, confident in your nonsense plan ?

    72. Karmanaut says:

      Looking at some of the comments above – it’s worth noting that the UK is no longer the 5th biggest economy. Since Brexit, France and India have overtaken the UK. And if the pound continues to devalue to the level the big banks think it will, then Italy and Brazil might pass the UK, too.

      UK Debt is predicted to reach almost £2 trillion by 2020, and I understand that this doesn’t include an additional £3.5 trillion in other liabilities (pensions etc) which must also be paid.

    73. One_Scot says:

      A wise man once said, ‘if you crack your head against a wall long enough, it will bleed’.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      What % of that £20 is ours? What % goes to the UK Treasury?

      £Zero. Why should the UK treasury get anything if it’s sold in Japan? Goods leaving a country pay no tax to the country they left. They are held duty free and exported directly.

      The Japanese Treasury presumably get some sales tax/VAT and possibly some import tariff tax ( if that applies ).

      The value of exports to their home countries are from economic activity, profits, and jobs. A government makes money from taxes raised on that activity. Exporting means a bigger market than simply a home one. Bigger market means more jobs and more taxes (income, corporation, business rates) paid.

    75. sensibledave says:

      sassenach 3:20 pm

      You wrote “Indeed it must be a struggle for them to maintain a Christmas Holiday roster from their ever-decreasing pool of idiots”.

      There is only me Sessenach! But if it helps you though, you carry on thinking that there are hundreds of sensibledaves ganging up to bully you.

      I note you have nothing substantive to say in response to my points other than to (try to) shoot the messenger (and miss by a country mile!).

      The thing that amazes me about this site is that people are obviously so passionate, so desiring of change and so committed to the cause – and yet there seems to be virtually no back up to any position taken.

      If you were truly interested in politics, economics, the EU, etc, surely you would take an interest in finding out facts and considering various potential outcomes.

      I can see that many are already getting excited about Ms Sturgeon’s recent pronouncements and are identifying the next opportunity to go for indyref2. But has anyone stopped for a second to consider other scenarios.

      Let’s follow up the on the scenario that I outlined above.

      Lets say that because of the economics of the situation, the UK negotiators agree a Brexit roughly based around CETA plus we pay £10 Billion – in return we get “tariff free” trade (bear in mind that if we dont have tarifF free trade then might collect around £10 Billion in Tariffs from the EU for the pleasure of them exporting things to us and we could then support our exporters with lower taxes).

      Then, imagine the UK is now outside the EU with a trade deal we are happy with.

      Does that help or hinder those that desire an Independent Scotland?

      If you think that hinders the cause, should you go for indyref2 before hand?

      What if the timing isnt right and you don’t carry the vote a second time?

      Under what circumstances might the Scottish electorate then vote to leave the Uk (with its unique deal with the EU in place) and to then try and negotiate independently with the EU? How would that work? Would the EU allow Scotland in without the Euro? etc, etc.

      It is surely the case that Ms Sturgeon and her team have already worked all this out and that the realistic options for Scottish Independence, post a successful Brexit, look very, very difficult.

      That would explain the recent pronouncements and attempts to obfuscate and delay things to try everything to prevent a successful Brexit – because otherwise that could mean the end of potential Scottish Independence for the foreseeable future?

      Personally speaking, rather than helping the Independence cause, I think the current situation could be a nail in the coffin if the Scottish Government don’t go, and win, indyref2 in the very near future.

      What say you ladies and gentlemen?

    76. Proud Cybernat says:

      Well O/T

      So here’s a wee formula that shows YES will win IndyRef2 (assuming YES vote of 45% remains fairly solid by the time of IndyRef#2).

      When IndyRef#1 was announced by the SG in 2012, those wishing independence stood at around 28%-30%.

      By the end of the campaign it rose to 45% (rounded up).

      That is an increase of 15%-17% of those supporting Indy.

      Now, taking that increase in support for Indy as indicative of what will happen with IndyRef#2 then YES will win.

      Assuming the lower increase in support of 15% (i.e. 15% of the 55% NO voters from last time) = 8% (rounded down) of those former NO voters now voting YES.

      So, 45% (committed YES support) + 8% (converted NO voters based on 15% change observed in IndyRef#1, then YES = 53%.

      And that is without factoring in any demographic changes, BREXIT or anything else. No wonder the Yoons are bricking it.

    77. CmonIndy says:

      Come on people. Sensibledave is not an individual. It is a team bent on distraction.
      However, some of the stuff is interesting to see countered.

    78. heedtracker says:

      What say you ladies and gentlemen?

      Fuck off.

      But you clearly on mission sensible. How come Northern Ireland getting special treatment and Nissan, and the City etc? They’re not vile seps are they?

    79. galamcennalath says:

      Karmanaut says:

      UK is no longer the 5th biggest economy. Since Brexit, France and India have overtaken the UK

      Indeed. I did read somewhere that a post Brexit UK is likely to be the 10th biggest economy. Can’t find it though. But overtaken by France, India, Italy and Brazil would make it 9th.

      Which is actually quite astonishing! A moment of utter madness in the voting booth causes such a big movement in ranking.

      Then if Scotland weren’t to be part of that Brexit, who knows!? Which countries are snapping at iEngland’s heels? Canada, South Korea, Australia would seem to be contenders.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      I have to hope that in Indy Scotland, the BOS which is half unbundled is completely set free, Clydesdale is largely fine as it is, but the RBS retail gets set free, along with any part that belongs in Scotland but not in the City of London. We need the three banks, but not the baggage that still sticks to two of them, though a lot less the BOS.

      From the Herald: “STATE-BACKED Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) has suffered a fresh setback on its road to recovery after being told to pay out a total of 17.1 million Swiss Francs (£13.5m) for its role in influencing interest rates.

      and on top of all that I’d like to see an overall move towards prudential banking.

    81. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @galamcennalath –

      Please bear with me.

      I’m no pretending to be dim here. It’s a genuine mystery to me. Let me strip the money out of it and take a different angle…

      If the whisky can only be sold as ‘Scotch’ if it’s made in Scotland, and Scotland is, according to the UN, a nation, then surely it becomes a Scottish export as soon as it leaves Scotland. Is that right?

      If so, has the bottle in Japan, in effect, been ‘exported’ twice?

    82. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible dave

      last chance, but this 5 in the world nonsense is not based on standard of living, its how much money flows, That’s why the city London wants, needs the financial passport.
      the UK is on a knife edge, lose the financial passport, and see where the UK is then, lose Scotland, and the Rump will drop further than the 9th place the UK stands today.
      Or are you saying the average Nigerian has a better standard of living than a Norwegian?

      But this is your problem, and I do mean no disrespect, but the arrogant Westminster bomb everyone, look at my wedge, money fast cars and sod the poor attitude is what repulses more and more Scots every day.

      Put it another way David, we want to live in a better country, all Westminster and the union offers is more and more shite.

    83. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      YES = 53%.

      Here’s another way to look at it. Three groups are open to persuasion to varying degrees based on the two referendums …

      Yes-Remain ~30% will be near certain Yes again
      Yes-Leave ~15% will mostly put Indy first
      No-Remain ~30% will be offended by a hard Brexit

      We only need to get 1 in 3 No-Remains persuaded to vote Yes and we are home and dry!

    84. sensibledave says:

      Geeo 3.31

      You wrote: “The uk can put forward such an idea but when (not if) the EU say..”no free movement no deal”, that plan is dead in the water”

      Earlier in this thread, I made the statement that the level of tariffs that we will end up are in the gift of the Likes of Ms Merkel and whoever leads France. I went on to discuss the issues Mrs Merkel then faces with German economy and the economic prospects for jobs in their major industrials like Mercedes (The UK is Merc’s biggest international market I believe), VW, Audi, BMW. If their prices go up by another 10% because of tariffs on top of the strengthening Euro, that would seriously affect their competitiveness and therefore their revenues and exports in the UK.

      In response to your “No Free Movement No Deal” comment, you have not been paying attention. The EU do no Free Movement deals all over the world. The most recent deal was the CETA deal in Canada.

      Please stop and think for yourself Geeo. This far too important to just blindly rebroadcast a party line.

      If you think that EU have got themselves in a position where they will only deal with us on a basis that is worse than Canada’s then you are fooling yourself. Given our position, isnt it far more likely that we will be in a position to do a far better deal than Canada (remember, we have a £70 billion trade deficit with the EU and we currently pay a net £10 Billion into the EU coffers for the pleasure of being a member).

      Think for yourself Geeo, think!

    85. heedtracker says:

      we have a £70 billion trade deficit with the EU and we currently pay a net £10 Billion into the EU coffers for the pleasure of being a member).

      Think for yourself Geeo, think!

      Think about the debt involved. Consumer debt in the UK is much more than just throwing it on the credit card until the New Year,

      Warning as household debts rise to top £1.5 trillion

      “Give us what we want EU, we’re too big to fail.” and the jocks can lump it, they vote to remain under our control, for eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever.

    86. Andrew McLean says:

      If Britain is so rich, why the need for food banks, why are the poor poorer, is it because society is unbalanced?

      Some think Christmas is all about parties and presents.

      Some hope for the birth of a better world.

      Wherever you are may your god go with you!

    87. galamcennalath says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      It’s a claim often made that Whisky exported via England means we miss out. I don’t see how.

      Whisky exported has had no duty paid on it, because it leaves the tax jurisdiction prior to consumption by the end tax paying consumer.

      Nothing which is exported has any duty, VAT, sales tax etc paid on it. These are all things countries put on goods sold in their own country whether or not it is imported or made locally.

      There are also no such thing as export tariffs (I believe) only import tariffs.

      So Whisky shipped to Japan has had no tax or duty paid to HM Treasury.

      If it’s a decent malt then it might well be worth quite a lot per bottle, even with no tax.

      It’s Scotch and it has to have been exported from Scotland. If it goes via other countries, possibly being repacked in to different containers, then you could say it has been imported into and exported from another country. However tax is collected in the country of sale.

    88. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      I see the concern troll is in full spate…

    89. ScottieDog says:

      Noticed in your comments that uk is 5th largest economy in the world. It’s actually now 7th. Of course I’m sure the folk who will hopefully benefit from the food box I just dropped off at the food bank will be celebrating the UK’s economic status when they tuck into their xmas dinner of sorts.

      The standard of living in the U.K. languishes somewhere down the bottom of the league tables but that’s OK of course.

      Noticed you mentioned economics in there. What has been beneficial about the UK’s economic strategy over the past four decades? We got more billionaires??

    90. Andrew McLean says:

      heedtracker stop reading my mind, its just creepy now!

      Also stop being so eloquent with it!


    91. Paula Rose says:

      There’s something I don’t get – if the UK pays what it pays now to stay in the market won’t it also have to abide by all the rules that it will no longer have a say in determining, that’ll be a bit of a hard sell won’t it?

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      Apart from what galamcennalath might say in reply, one of the problems with the whole fandangle is that neither side of the great debate has actually stopped to list all the very many different questions around the movements of whisky (and gin) into bond and out of bond, which country it’s moved from bond (it can get moved bond to bond), what difference there is if that’s an EU country or a “third country”, whether as barrels or bottles, and who pays and who gets any spirit duty – if any in the appropriate country – or to where it’s attributed.

      Basically though export duty is zero (it doesn’t have to be). VAT on the retail product is zero if exported outside the EU or within the EU business to business, unless as a retail bottle to a consumer or non-VAT registered business in which case full VAT is charged on the bottle before it’s sent off, and the spirit duty would have been paid at around £28 per litre 100% alcohol before bottling by the bottler. Phew.

      I did start this off 3 or 4 years back but gave up after a few days, looked again a couple of months back got bored after a couple of hours. The unionist bloggers are not right because they haven’t even started considering all the different combinations of who does what and where. And indeed, to whom!

    93. One_Scot says:

      There will be a second referendum on Scottish Independence, May needs it to validate her position through a No vote.

      All Nicola has to do is ensure that the poll is not tainted by the Yoon State.

    94. sensibledave says:

      Hi Andrew

      Thank you for making a point – rather than just the normal, unsubstantiated twaddle that often gets written above.

      If you want a better country and that means you need to be Independent then go for it. I totally respect that and, providing that a majority of your fellow citizens agree with your position then, as I have repeated here until I am blue in the face, Scotland should be Independent.

      Now that the EU referendum is done and dusted and, barring some enormous electoral changes in Germany and France, we can assume that the UK will be leaving the EU – then, as a democrat, I am all for us getting the best deal we can get.

      I understand many of the arguments that YES campaigners in the indyref made. I think Obama is a great man. But, honestly, when he said that the UK would just be another country and go to the back of the queue for a trade deal. My response wasn’t , oh dear, we better not leave then. No, it was well f**k you sunshine, we will do whatever we want without interference from you thank you. When Junckers comes up with one of his statements about how hard it is going to be for us and how we will be made an example of us – again, my reaction was “up yours”.

      Obama and Junckers managed to stir up the exact opposite of the emotions they were hoping to achieve with the veiled threats.
      So, contrary to popular opinion here, I understand where many Independence supporters are coming from with many of the statements they make from the heart.

      What I don’t “get” is requirement to insult and stereotype everyone south of the border in order to make the points they feel the need to make.

      I separate the pronouncements from the likes of Junckers from the ordinary folk in Germany, France, Italy, etc. I do not believe for one minute that there is ill will towards the UK because we do not want to be in the club anymore. They just want to carry on their lives as they were and have no desire whatsoever to “punish” anyone. let alone suffer an economic downturn to make some political point that isn’t made to the likes of the USA and Canada.

    95. sensibledave says:

      Paula Rose 4:36 pm

      You wrote: “There’s something I don’t get – if the UK pays what it pays now to stay in the market won’t it also have to abide by all the rules that it will no longer have a say in determining, that’ll be a bit of a hard sell won’t it?”

      In the imaginary scenario I outlined, we would pay £10 billion to keep tariff free trade with the single market but dump the other stuff along the way (free movement, European courts, Straight bananas, etc).

      In that scenario we would be in the same economic position as prior to our exit (i.e. we pay £10 billion rather than paying a net £10 billion) but we have dumped all the other stuff we dont want – and we are free to spend the rest of our previous contributions where we decide – rather than where the EU decides).

      I think that all the Leavers and Remainers would go for that as an acceptable compromise/outcome and I think that the average person in Germany, France and Italy would go for that too.

      The EU would get our net £10 Billion per annum as a “commission” on the deal.

    96. I’ve just read Davidson’s tweet lying about Scotland being vetoed by Spain.
      Is she bereft of any morality now?
      What a wee sleekit cowering timerous beastie she has turned out to be.
      Tomkins is now a Brexit Brit Champion.
      May’s Brexiteers will decide Scotland’s fate. So much for the Smith Commission upon which this Prof Chancer got a berth for the Tories.

      Surely time now for the Tory Branch Office to remove ‘Scottish’ from their ‘Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party’ logo?
      They are ‘be-tractoring’ Scotland and the Scots.

      They don’t give a damn about the expected 80,000 job losses and the anticipated disaster being foisted on us by English MPs.
      If Scotland is so shite, why don’t they move to the Motherland?
      Rennie and Dugdale are as bad.
      They will fight to preserve their overpaid sinecures. The fate of Scotland and our Society matters nought to any of the Unionist who are now dyed in the wool Tory Brexiteers.
      They are beneath contempt. all of them.
      We shall be independent in two years time, now that May has rejected out of hand NS’ and the Scottish Government’s alternative EU proposals.
      Not one Tory, Lib Dem, or Labour hanger-on backed the Scottish Government’s option to remain in the single market. A total and utter disgrace and dereliction of duty to their constituents.

      Say anything to get elected then tell the people to fuck off. They know better?
      It beggars belief that preservation of the dying Union trumps all, no matter how much pain and suffering it visits upon the people, the children, the elderly, the infirm, the WM engineered poor, of our nation.
      They disgust me.

    97. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      what difference there is if that’s an EU country or a “third country”, whether as barrels or bottles,

      Yes, I agree that within the EU it is at its most confusing, however goods moving around the EU aren’t really imports/exports. Which I suppose the point of free trade within a single market. 🙂

      I know from experience it is worth buying booze online directly from mainland EU where you ‘only’ pay their VAT. Though, I haven’t done it since the pound dropped!

    98. brewsed says:

      At the start of this thread it is suggested 2017 will be somewhat tedious, news-wise. May be yes, may be no. May be beware the ides of March. May be the tragedy of Maybeth – vaulting ambition, which o’erleaps itself. May be the EU, objecting to a bond being broken, will want its 0.45Kg of flesh.

      But before that, we have the UK Supreme Court ruling on, possibly, a variety of points of constitutional law, perhaps agreeing with Lord Keen that the Sewel Convention is of little consequence, thus reducing the Scottish devolution process to a talking shop also of little consequence, or disagreeing with Lord Keen, the consequences of which would redefine tedious.

      The UK government does seem to be operating under the delusion that, when negotiating with the EU, it is not the supplicant. Once negotiations start, the EU, keen to discourage any other EU nation thinking of doing an ‘exit, will quite quickly insert a reality check into the process. The UK is the supplicant asking, “Please, please, we don’t want to pay the membership dues or green fees or obey all the club rules, but can we still use the toilets?”

      And we have some local elections in Scotland, where watching the inevitable continued decline of the deformed progeny of Keir Hardy may make some suggest it would be doing it a favour to have the tortured remains of the party put to ‘sleep’, as the saying goes.

      However, while all that is going on, the leader of the blue Conservative and Unionist Party will have, essentially, only one aim; the continued preservation of said party and that is by no means guaranteed. The compromises necessary to continue access to the toilets may piss off some of the more trenchant Brexiteers, or at least we can hope so.

      Other than that, waiting for the inevitable, Indyref2, is going to be tedious.

      Belated Solstice Greetings to all.
      Thanks to Nana for all the links
      And to all the Wingers for their inputs (well maybe not some who should keep their hands off their keyboards)

    99. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      “What I don’t “get” is requirement to insult and stereotype everyone south of the border in order to make the points they feel the need to make.”

      There is none. But you knew that.

    100. Andrew McLean says:


      Can I congratulate you on a well thought out and reasonable post, somewhat spoiled by this,

      “What I don’t “get” is requirement to insult and stereotype everyone south of the border in order to make the points they feel the need to make.”

      please point to specific examples, I will be the first to condemn, as will the majority here, any insulting remarks to my neighbours, I love my neighbour, I just wish he would keep himself to himself.

    101. Dan Huil says:

      May and the britnats are continuing to do aa excellent job for the independence movement in Scotland. Britnat arrogance and ignorance is, if anything, increasing. As brexit talks get serious a further increase will ensue. Unlike May NS is doing exactly the right thing by taking a responsible line in dealings with the EU and Westminster. It seems britnats are hoping the “Scottish Problem” will disappear if they just ignore it. When IndyRef2 and Scotland’s independence becomes unignorable I expect britnat politicians to react rashly – possibly sanctioning violence. With that independence is assured.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      Export duty is quite a curious thing as a concept, and I did get a bit side-tracked thinking about it a few weeks back. You could have, for instance, China having rare earth metals as a resource, taking the entirely sensible view that if we want their rare earth metals rather than the end products made with them, we pay through the nose for them, but rather than putting a special price for exports, easy to get around, just shove a 100% or even 500% export duty on them. The opposite of globalisation in a way, and one which makes sense for countries safegarding their natural resources.

    103. Robert Peffers says:


      I wrote a more detailed reply to your post but it vanished into the ether.
      So here’s a slightly more brief comment upon your very twisted thinking.

      You Wrote “ … I think that is wishful thinking on your behalf because you want to believe that because that will cause political issues in England … Blah! Blah!

      Then you continued … When Mendolez or Proctor and Gamble do deals with their customers, they do one type of deal with a corner shop – and another type with Tesco. In this analogy, Norway and Switzerland are the corner shops – the UK is is Tesco …”

      Thing is that when you talk of the UK your concept of what that entity might be is utter claptrap. You have, above just referred to, “England”, and then you are comparing the UK to various international and Britain wide retailers.

      However, England is a country and only one of eight countries in the British archipelago and even only one of four in the United Kingdom.

      Not only that but you haven’t yet grasped either the actual legal setup that is the United Kingdom nor yet the illegal actuality of what is operating as the United Kingdom at this point in the relationship of the only two legal partners in the United Kingdom. If you cannot grasp the basics you cannot understand the complexities.

      Here it is in a nutshell.

      Britain is an archipelago and Great Britain is the largest island in that archipelago.

      Great Britain is composed of only three individual countries, (smallest first), Wales, Scotland and England.

      The rest of the British countries are, Ireland, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

      The last three are NOT governed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and neither is that part of the politically partitioned country of Ireland that is a Republic because republics cannot be parts of a Kingdoms.

      There were thus only two kingdoms in Britain in 1706. These were the single country Kingdom of Scotland and the tri-country Kingdom of England that had annexed the Principality of Wales, (by the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284), and was whose Monarchy were made Lords of Ireland by the Pope in 1177. The Lordship of Ireland refers to the Norman Conquest of Ireland, a feudal rule between 1177 and 1542, under the King of England who was referred to as Lord of Ireland.

      This lordship was created as a Papal possession after the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169–71. The King of England,(as Lord of Ireland), was represented by, “The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland”, between 1660–1922.

      In 1542 the King of England forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the crown of Ireland upon the King of England’s head.

      This was the Kingdom of England that forced the creation of the United Kingdom upon Scotland in 1706/7. The United Kingdom is thus legally a bipartite Kingdom.

      So when you speak of only affecting England you obviously have no clear idea of what actually composes England in that context. England is a country but the Kingdom of England is three countries, or more correctly, two and a bit countries as subsequent to the treaty of Union the country of Ireland was politically partitioned and only the Northern part elected to remain in the United Kingdom.

      Note the Northern Irish voted to REMIAN in the United Kingdom because Ireland was already part of the United Kingdom between 1707 and 1800/1.

      Yet the actual set-up of Westminster has now become rather different from the legally agreed Treaty of Union and has officially been described as different in UK government commissioned documents :-

      This from the current Secretary of State for Scotland :-

      “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as “The United Kingdom”

      There is the nub of the matter. The legal status of the United Kingdom is that it is not a single country but is a bipartite United Kingdom with two equally sovereign partner kingdoms.

      The actuality, only on Westminster’s say so, is something else entirely.

      Westminster has appointed itself as being the sole parliament of the country of England yet the old parliament of England sat and wound itself up it has never been legally reconvened.

      Yet Westminster funds only the country of England directly with United Kingdom Treasury cash. It draws up legislation for England using English law and it imposes EVEL upon the MPs from Wales, N.I. and Scotland preventing them voting upon what Westminster considers to be English only matters.

      Furthermore, Westminster decides what level of funding the Parliament of England is to grant Block Grants to Wales Scotland and N.I. by use of the Barnett formula then rubs the other three countries noses in it by further regulating their block grants by use of Barnett Consequentials.

      Scotland is not an English Kingdom’s acquired underling country and Scotland is not just another English region.

      Scotland is legally a fully equal sovereign partner in a bipartite United Kingdom composed of two kingdoms. England is very lucky that Scots have net openly rebelled before now.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensible Dave
      You do appreciate that British nationalism demands the denial of inalienable human rights of Scots? Do you really see Scots as sub-human?

      You have no credible argument and simply waste time and space. As such, I think you probably consider your input to be quite successful. After all, it appears evident that the ends justify the means, when it comes to maintaining the most unequal society in Europe. Are we Better Together yet?

    105. manandboy says:

      Perspectives : War between the Superpowers could be just around the corner.

      John Pilger WW3 Break the Silence – on YouTube

      Should current US military build-ups in Europe and in the south and east of China, prove to be more than ‘deterrence’ value, then both Brexit and IndyRef2 will fall off the political radar faster than the radiation wave, from the first Russian nuclear missile to hit Faslane, will travel through Dunoon.

      With foreknowledge of US military planning, Theresa May would be highly unlikely to seriously engage in detailed arrangements for either Brexit or IndyRef2. Oh, wait….

    106. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      It has been successful, by troll standards. Remember how Tellin derailed threads as everyone queued up to berate him?

    107. Alastair says:


      Nearly everone forgets that there is another “Proper Bank” in Scotland that ticks along quite niecely non toxic and forever out of the headlines – Airdrie Savings Bank.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Conan the Librarian™
      I’m a newbie to cybernatery Conan, so I never had the pleasure of Tellin. I can imagine though.

    109. sassenach says:

      Is it not completely obvious that the Yoons are in meltdown when captain sensible is sent by ‘Head Office’ to fill this thread with verbal diarrhoea??

      Talk about digging their own graves!!

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, another interesting poll with Sturgeon ahead and not far below the 50%.

    111. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @galmcennalath & yesindyref2 –

      Hey, thanks for trying, but I’m as confused as ever.


    112. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links now over on O/T.

    113. Fran says:

      Has sensible started his Christmas holidays? Hes no bin aff aw day. Skils skailt, mibi hes heedmaister wie nae muckle ken o uk.

      Git him telt RP

    114. Croompenstein says:

      I just love it when yoons get shot down by informed folk…

    115. gus1940 says:

      Surely if we all just ignore his posts he might just give up and stop posting his rubbish.

      As for myself as soon as I see his name at the top of a comment I scroll on to the next one.

    116. Thepnr says:

      @Conan the Librarian

      Quite. Pointless and a waste of white space.

    117. heedtracker says:

      Lord Digby Jones
      When will Sturgeon stop obsessing about a2nd Indpt Ref & get her single issue party governing Scotland at which they r doing appalling job?!

      1:01 PM – 21 Dec 2016

      Another schlub sends his seasonal goodwill and Britishness. Or, Another trip around the sun, with these arsewipes in charge, coming up Scotland.

    118. Sensibledave says:

      Gus. 6.09

      Haha Gus. Two things. Firstly, as Someone observed above I have some time on my hands because of the xmas slowdown – so this means I can give more time to educating, informing and enlightening my friends here in Wings.

      Secondly, you could only know my posts were rubbish if you had read them! You are a bit like one of the tabloids revelling some lurid story that you then condemn!

      You will miss me when I am back at work!

    119. mike d says:

      Alistair 5.41 pm.airdrie savings bank should be doing more advertising. Maybe open branches down south.

    120. heedtracker says:

      You will miss me when I am back at work!

      Will you miss Scotland after we do win our independence, from, well, you sensible.

      That’s not a question.

    121. mike d says:

      Sensibledave fcuk off back to your “work”

    122. Robert Graham says:

      mike d @ 6.53
      Hes at his work by the looks of all the bleedn posts

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see Dave doesn’t deny he see Scots as sub-human. Telling?

    124. Sensibledave says:


      … my last post of the day I am afraid, I have to take my beautiful wife out to her Christmas do.

      I won’t miss Scotland – because it will still be there, still be a beautiful country and still be a friendly neighbour. I hope you get the independence you so desire but you need to get it very soon I fear – or the chance may be gone for a very long time.

      Nighty night!

    125. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      Dave, regretfully, switches off his employers computer. Lifts up his mop and pail and starts swabbing down the office…

    126. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      These days, I usually just read sensibledave’s offerings and leave others to address his outpourings. However, nobody seems to have picked him up on this comment. So…

      Hi sensibledave at 1:42 pm.

      You typed.
      “With respect to the CETA deal, these are the highlights from the website …..

      CETA will:”

      You then pasted in a pile of things that indicated how the EU and its people would benefit from CETA, eg,

      help make European firms more competitive in Canada

      make it easier for EU firms to bid for Canadian public contracts
      open up the Canadian services market to EU companies

      open up markets for European food and drink exports

      protect traditional European food and drink products (known as Geographical Indications) from being copied

      cut EU exporters’ costs without cutting standards

      benefit small and medium-sized EU firms

      benefit EU consumers

      make it easier for European professionals to work in Canada

      allow for the mutual recognition of some qualifications

      create predictable conditions for both EU and Canadian investors

      make it easier for European firms to invest in Canada

      help Europe’s creative industries, innovators and artists
      support people’s rights at work and the environment.

      With CETA, the EU and Canada pledge to ensure that economic growth, social issues and environmental protection go hand in hand

      Reading through that list, what, apart from
      allow for the mutual recognition of some qualifications
      create predictable conditions for both EU and Canadian investors

      gives any benefit to Canada and the peoples of Canada?

      From your post, it would appear that CETA’s good(?) points are 90% in favour of the EU. Why would Canadians agree to such a lop-sided agreement?

    127. Glamaig says:

      found this via Labour Uncut

      JP Morgan predicts Scotland independent by 2019

    128. heedtracker says:

      Nighty night!

      Its teatime, here in Scotland sensible.

      You’re only interesting in that you know full well Scots up here are mercilessly bombarded with BBC says vote NO SNP bad propaganda, from the moment we open our eyes of a morn. So why you feel there’s a need for you to do your vote NO or else thing is a bit odd.

      Although to be fair, it must be getting very frustrating for all the reprobates in UKOK newsrooms, furiously pounding the life out of British vote No keyboards, all their anti independence propaganda to pour all over us, which hasn’t been reflected at the Scottish ballot box, since 2014, yet.

      Sleep well sensibledave.

    129. Breeks says:

      OT Trump, who doesn’t want to waste money of the F-35, is happy to upgrade the USA’s nuclear arsenal. Thank you America. We’ll all sleep safe in our shelters now.

    130. heedtracker says:

      For you sensible, tucked up your British beddy, bed time reading, at 7.30pm,

      Craig Murray not that impressed so,

      “Rather than a joyous uphill march to the fantastic possibilities of unlocking the potential to construct a new state for this wonderful nation, it paints Independence as a dire necessity because nothing else works and everything is going to pieces. Independence as a little lifeboat in freezing mountainous seas as the UK Titanic plummets beneath the waves.”

    131. freedo says:

      Oh! Did I miss something? Has dave pi**ed off? Well thank fcuk for that. Twas getting a real bore scrolling past his nonsense.

      We can all look forward to a crap-less couple of days.

      Sleep well dave!

    132. Onwards says:

      “I think Obama is a great man. But, honestly, when he said that the UK would just be another country and go to the back of the queue for a trade deal. My response wasn’t , oh dear, we better not leave then. No, it was well f**k you sunshine, we will do whatever we want without interference from you thank you”

      This is where your argument about a reasonable trading deal falls down. It’s for much the same reasons.

      Any future EU/UK deal is going to involve politics as much as it involves common sense and I think EU politicians are definitely going to prioritize the stability of the EU, even at the cost of German industry etc.

      No doubt some sort of trade deal will be struck eventually, but the UK will be made to pay for it first. The French already have their eyes on these banking jobs.

      All these EU politicians will remember being insulted by UK politicians. They will remember Nigel Farage gloating and ridiculing them in that speech.

      Lets just say there isn’t much goodwill for a nice easy trade deal and a bunch of cherry picking.

      £10 billion for membership of the single market isn’t enough. It will be a question of ‘take it or leave it’ involving free movement, and perhaps a Swiss style fudge for UK politicians to save face a little, but with nothing much really changing.

    133. heedtracker says:

      Heil Trump.

      Donald Trump: US must greatly expand nuclear weapons
      1 hour ago
      From the section US & Canada

    134. heedtracker says:

      Dr NO! and Pres Trump, BetterTogether under Trident 2 no doubt. SLab vote no Trident too. Surely they’re not trying kid us on SLab style, are they.

      Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 3h3 hours ago
      Scott Arthur Retweeted Donald J. Trump
      Is Trump coming to his senses regarding nukes?Scott Arthur added,

      Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
      The United States must greatly strengthen and expand its nuclear capability until such time as the world comes to its senses regarding nukes
      1 reply 0 retweets 0 likes
      Reply 1

    135. sassenach says:

      yesindyref2 @5-54

      Re Courier poll, I decided to give Harvie a wee lift, as it’s nice to see Slab at the bottom!

      Is that a wee bit naughty of me?

    136. heedtracker says:

      Kenfarq goes meta. Makes a change from his “be good Scotland, there’s tons of devo coming, soon, so so soon,” bollox.

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 34m34 minutes ago
      When people say “I’m not British at all. I’m 100% Scottish,” I always feel it’s a denial of something rather than an assertion of something.

    137. ScottieDog says:

      Regarding the £10bn talked about regards the UK’s EU membership. It was never about that as we know. As for taking back control, well the control taken back will be corporatised by an edifice of power which is actually more extreme in the neoliberal sense than the troika.

      So people waiting for the benefits of these repatriated powers are going to see the plane fly straight over their head and into the city of London.

      The main difference they will see is in their human and employee rights which were formerly under the more moderating influence of the EU. Their employee union will be all but a wet handshake and a whimper as their terms and conditions are demolished without recourse. Wonderful.

      Sensibledabe may be right in that the UK will successfully forge new trade links at lower cost (although we scots are still lectured that our only trading partner can be rUK.). It will be an attractive export market to some countries since the U.K. runs a considerable trade deficit. No biggie really – the uk just exports its (costless to produce) £s around the globe.

      With all the above in mind however, it will be back to square minus one for the person in the street.
      A large trade deficit means a growing govt deficit (unless you can encourage people to take on more personal debt – a la thatcher – but that ship has sailed). Of course the neoliberal establishment abhors national debt and austerity plus will be onl the menu.

      There simply is no benefit to the person in the street.

    138. heedtracker says:

      Less meta Kenfarq, just SNP bad, shock.

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 1h1 hour ago
      Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Kevin Schofield
      John Mason is exactly the same kind of person who, a few miles south, says: “I don’t feel a tiny bit European. I am 100 per cent British!”

    139. chasanderson200 says:

      Tits usually are in pairs.
      Sensible D is one.
      Most brains have two lobes.
      D – he has none.

      End of —-

      Not even clever enough to troll intelligently.

      To quote an old Methil saying…..S#!T FOR B34INS!!


    140. galamcennalath says:

      Glamaig says:

      JP Morgan predicts Scotland independent by 2019

      Me too!

      All we need is the Tories to continue making a complete dog’s brexit of everything. 🙂

      Funny how it was a Tory female prime minister who kicked off this modern phase of increasing Scottish political confidence, then decades later, another Tory female prime minister pushes it to its inevitable conclusion?

    141. yesindyref2 says:

      Sounds good to me, he deserves to be higher.

      It would be good if everyone got co-ordinated though, for everyone to vote for Willie, put the word around and get him 90%. What a laugh! You could just see the media going berserk about it all over the UK, and half of Scotland would be sniggering our heads off.

      Andrew Neil would be like “well we certainly saw the SNP at its peak in May, it’s well down in popularity now”. Must be all the cybernats on benefits paying his wages.

    142. heedtracker says:

      What a fuss over a few sand dunes at Balmedie. Only in teamGB, Libby Carrell’s luvin it.


      Activist can sue Trump golf resort for breach of privacy, court rules

      Rohan Beyts says staff at president-elect’s golf course in Scotland took mobile phone footage of her without her consent

      Libby Brooks and Severin Carrell

    143. Capella says:

      Oh dear. Rising sea levels map of Scotland and Wales with surrounding islands. c 2100

    144. I am livid

      STV broadcasts Nicola’s response to Davidson re Scottish Police at FMQ including the smashing coup de grace – the £25 million the Government tales off only from Scottish Police in VAT – and BBC talks over much of Nicola’s response and leaves that piece completely out.

    145. call me dave says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Shortbread radio too! They certainly did. Good old Auntie. 🙁

      Anyhoo! Link (I hope to fmqs) for those who want to hear all the goodwill on their last one this year.

    146. Chic McGregor says:

      OT Nae Pantomime spoof this year? Or has reality transcended all possibilities of it?

    147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Phew, insensible‘s departed fur the noo.

      What puzzles me is the unshakeable delusion that he seems to share with many of those he lives among, including HMGov it seems (as brewsed acutely observed upthread), that when negotiating with the EU, HMGov somehow has the upper hand, and is not the supplicant. (Or maybe Theresa and Co. do realise it, which explains why they really don’t want to talk about it.)

      yesindyref2 and Lenny Hartley touched upon the Achilles heel of HMGov’s case: financial passporting.

      They surely can’t afford to let that slip, and they won’t get it without the four freedoms. The EU won’t relent, not least because it would fatally undermine its own stability, and anyway there are plenty of countries more than willing to take up the financial slack.

      My nightmare scenario therefore is that UKGov will in the end relent on freedom of movement and try to brazen out the consequent Leaver sh*tstorm, blaming Nicola for putting a spanner in the hard-Brexit works by threatening indy. They can’t afford to lose us either, because we’re actually their natural resource insurance policy, without which they fear they will also be in deep doo-doo.

      Please someone, just assure me it won’t be so (and why).

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      So Sturgeon is on over 61%, but Patrick is 3 votes below Dugdale – I just gave him a vote having done the usual clear. Would be good to give him a bit of a boost …

      Merry Christmas Patrick!

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      It’s quite genuine from what I’ve seen, the empire biscuit crowd really do think every “foreigner” hangs on their every word, that they’re superior, and everyone wants to be them. Very sad. Usually I’m more patient, but having spent some time the last couple of days posting on the Express …

    150. Conan the Librarian™ says:


      You have been posting on the Express?

      Strong stomach.

    151. heedtracker says:

      Yoons of Aberdeen dont like Alex Salmond. Wullie Young and chums banned Salmond from all their ACC property and the Saltire too but just when you think UKOK unionism can’t get any weirder…

    152. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 16:11,

      O/T Maybe I can add my own humble belated ha’porth to your query re whisky exports, Ian. As others have already made clear, it’s not an issue about export duty (which isn’t levied here), nor about excise duty (which is likewise not paid on exports?) nor about VAT or sales tax (which is ultimately paid by the end-consumer to the benefit of the state within which the product is sold, even within the EU).

      As far as I see, the “loss” is actually a virtual one, or a political one if you like, in that some of the gross sales value of the export may be accounted in the GERs figures towards England’s benefit rather than towards Scotland’s. And as a double whammy, even some of that accounted to Scotland’s benefit may be accounted towards trade with England, when in fact it is actually being exported through England to somewhere else.

      All of which would be properly accounted for, of course, if Scotland were independent. (But probably not until, alas.)

      That’s how I understand it, though I stand to be corrected on that.

    153. sassenach says:


      Your wish is my command, Harvie now above Slab again!

    154. James Barr Gardner says:

      Nae Question Time tonight on brittish biased conmen instead it’s “Mrs Brown’s Boys (Episode – Mammy’s Ass)”.

      Well not a lot of difference there then from “Broons red tory boys (Episode – Auntie’s Erse)”.

      Time noo fur a wee dram or twa.

    155. North chiel says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 0945 pm ; Don’t think that TM has
      many friends ( if any) left in Europe ? Whereas , possibly our FM
      has quite a few ? Consequently , perhaps we could have some
      influence ” on the other side” of Brexit negotiations ( if not much on the UK side) . TM could therefore have
      to pay a high price to ” buy off” the FM’s threat of Indyref2 . NS might
      well feel that she is holding some ” high cards” and has no need to bluff .Perhaps a ” partial independence” position ( looser links to U.K./ stronger links to Europe) could be the
      minimum requirement for our FM . Does TM want to gamble on ” the union”?
      A compromise ” partial independent” position is only one step ( major disagreement on foreign policy) away from the ” end game”. Either TM negotiates on this with both the EU 27 and our FM or
      she is ” forced” to gamble with the union . Her choice , she can continue to ” bury her head in the sand” over Brexit and risk not only the union , but also possible disasterous economic consequences for RUK .

    156. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 21:54,

      I salute your indefatigibility, sir.

      I used to do the same on the Graun BTL (under a pseudonym) and I admit it was gratifying to see “likes” rack up occasionally, though even there the yoon-loons were something to behold. I had one go completely ballistic on me, but I managed to get in a reasoned reply that remained after his own foam-mouthings were deleted.

      But doing it at The Daily Slug is beyond the call of duty. Though to wind-up its lairy denizens may be considered, I suppose, a certain if peculiar form of entertainment!

      Plus of course one gets a sense of where our opponents are coming from. It would be most helpful, I think, to find some way to confront the remaining apolitical Proud Scot Buts with these frankly-expressed views, just to demonstrate how “valued” and “equal” we truly are.

    157. Sinky says:

      Another cracker from GAPonsonby on BBC Scotlasnd’s downplaying of Nicola Sturgeon’s Brexit proposal.

      I wonder which manager/editor/producer took this decision?

    158. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      Ho do YOU get rid of the Courier’s knowledge of your vote?

      I use Firefox and activate the add-ons “Remove Cookies for Site” AND “Remove Cookies and DOM Storage Button” when I’m on the Courier’s tab but when I refresh the page, it still knows I’ve already voted.

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      Very good, that’s Patrick 10 votes above Kezia, and only 5 below Willie! It wasn’t my idea by the way, it was sassenach’s. Sturgeon now up to 65%.

      I use ccleaner – same as I do for the Herald. There’s a free download –

      @Conan the Librarian / @RJS
      I don’t post there often, just when I can sit doing something else (work) and go back with a post every so often to keep near the top. It’s easy because they’re so uninformed or giving out misinformation. Like 2 days back someone saying the SNP were only just ahead last election.

      No, says I, 63 MSPs to the 31 of the nearest competitor, more than twicee as many, and SNP 46.5%, LAB 22.6%, CON 22.0% – again more than twice the nearest. I reply to a few then leave it a bit. I also point out the insults they throw at Sturgeon and the SNP – a good list of quotes.

      They don’t like facts, I always get a good few thumbs down 🙂

      BUT there’s one or two reasonable ones do get the point – and reply, so it’s worth it for that – and to foster good relations for Scotland. Come visit us and see for yourself – you’ll be welcome, don’t listen to the SNP-haters (sort of thing). I should get paid by visitscotland!

    160. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2.

      Looks like ‘CCleaner’ is windoze only. I’m on a Mac.

    161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      O/T I’m not up to date with anything like the latest browser on any hardware, Brian, but usually you can (manually) navigate to some kind of current cookie list and (manually) delete specific cookies as required. It may be tedious, of course, but it’s surely possible with yours (Safari?), no…?

    162. DavieP says:

      Dundee courier poll, best leader of 2016


      Wee Nicola’s winning by miles, but Paddy Harvie’s only two votes behind Kezia… C’mon, people, let’s get this sorted!

    163. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert J. Sutherland.

      Up above, I typed,
      “I use Firefox and activate the add-ons “Remove Cookies for Site” AND “Remove Cookies and DOM Storage Button” when I’m on the Courier’s tab but when I refresh the page, it still knows I’ve already voted.”

      Either of those two add-ons work on other sites (eg, The National) but don’t seem to get round the Courier’s set-up.

    164. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland et al –

      The whole ‘whisky’ thing is doing my nut in.

      The stuff is just nippy watter. Even the most primitive societies found ways to make it. It’s not ‘rocket science’ (no pun intended), but working-out who trousers the dosh from each bottle sold seems to be an impenetrable mystery.

      I just wish someone in the industry would spill the beans. It all stinks mightily.

    165. Jim Graham says:

      Hi Robert J. Sutherland.

      You need to remove the courier cookie(s) and one from polldaddy

    166. Jim Graham says:

      Brian Doonthetoon my last post should have been to you and not Robert

      You need to remove the courier cookie(s) and one from polldaddy.

      If you are using Safari it is Preferences-Privacy-Manage Website Data then search for the two cookies

    167. heedtracker says:

      I just wish someone in the industry would spill the beans. It all stinks mightily.

      Just another mystery of yoon, like why is this union not called the United Queendom.

    168. Doug says:

      Why would Canadians agree to such a lop-sided agreement?

      That is a question many Canadians are asking over here.

    169. Capella says:

      re value of exports – this is ridiculous. Is there any other country in the world which has no means of knowing what it exports and what that is worth? Why is the Treasury so useless? (rhetorical question). The UK administration is not fit for purpose.

    170. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Jim Graham.

      Thank you! It was the polldaddy cookie that wasn’t being removed. Just voted for Harvie (again).

    171. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      Hear hear.

    172. Big Phil says:

      RE. the courier, close your browser then re-open and clear your history, then vote for wee patrick. Sorted. I’ve retried my diagnostics again, jings wee patrick is turd. lol

    173. Still Positive. says:

      Capella @ 12.14

      Agree. Totally ridiculous we don’t know what we export.

      Think it is down to Margaret Thatcher in the 80s directing all exports to be from ports in SE England because she feared Scottish independence.

      They really did not want us to know how much and what we export or import as that would be a major argument for Scottish independence.

      The fact that we export more than we import has to be hidden in UK accounts.

      Basically, England only produces 61% of its food: Scotland is self-sufficient and exports a lot of food – specially seafood and fish (not the same)as well as beef and especially whisky.

      Although according to HMRC England exported c£3.6bn of whisky last year. That will be the whisky bottled in England and the whisky bottled in Scotland exported from English ports.

    174. Capella says:

      Let’s assume the Treasury use computers, which means databases, and sometimes spreadsheets. It’s the easiest thing in the world to add a column called “Country of origin”. “S” for Scotland, “E” for England etc. So any time we want to find out what Scotland produces, exports, generates in tax, VAT etc, all we have to do is filter for “S” = Scotland.

      Why has this not already been done?

    175. Capella says:

      @ Still Positive – there is another issue with ports. I believe all the Scottish ports were sold (by Westminster) to a private consortium who now charge exorbitant fees for access and fail to maintain the facilities. I don’t have the details ATM.

      We should be exporting our products through Scottish ports. But that will require massive investment in infrastructure now hampered by privatisation. Perhaps we should add compensation for loss of infrastructure to the bill when we become independent.

    176. Chic McGregor says:

      Agree with last few comments. Scotland, despite its very positive resource to population ratio, is, if you are gullible enough to believe it, the only European country in trade deficit to England.

      How realistic is that?

    177. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 1.07
      Think your right about the port’s.
      There was a guy called Edward who had really good information about them a few months back, haven’t seen him post for a while though.
      Anyhoo somewhere in the conversation with him (don’t know if it was him) somebody had said that one of the port’s.. Rosyth …I think was owned by a group that Lord smith commission Smith was part of.
      And if I am remembering right they blocked permission to develop it.
      Edward was saying that it would take a fair few years to get Scottish port’s back up and running.
      So aye .. I think your right we should be factoring that in to our Indy settlement.

    178. Capella says:

      Here are a couple of Reid Foundation papers on Scottish ports. Both written by Alf Baird, Professor of Maritime Transport, Napier.

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      So, an article in the Herald: “ ONE of Scotland’s leading entrepreneurs has warned a second Scottish independence referendum would be “foolhardy” amid the uncertainty of Brexit.

      Sir Tom Hunter, the sports and property tycoon whose Hunter Foundation offered impartial advice during the 2014 independence poll, said “there is enough uncertainty” around Brexit without throwing independence back into the mix.

      offered impartial advice

      So to examine this claim of impartiality, here’s the paper produced in August 2014, with no time then to critique it.'s%20Decision%20final%20ebook.pdf

      Is it impartial? Well, with its 16 questions there’s some good stuff in it, and the format attempts to be balanced, but the main part, the economy, the questions were answerd by an individual or individual entity, rather than a balanced pair (pro and anti):

      Question 1: What would the outlook for Scotland’s economy be if the vote is Yes/if the vote is No? – David Bell

      Question 2: Which currency arrangement would an independent Scotland use? – Angus Armstrong and Monique Ebell

      Question 3: What would the picture for the Scottish Government’s finances be if Scotland votes yes? What if Scotland votes no? – David Phillips (IFS)

      In my opinion a better result would have been obtained by having a balance of pro-indy and anti-indy commentators, rather than so-called “impartial” ones. To be blunt, there was nobody really impartial during Indy Ref 1 – especially by August 2014, one month before the Ref.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart (from the day before yesterday probably).

      They’re not only falling into the trap, they’re jeering at us SNP sycophants!

      I don’t know whether to collapse in a heap of insane laughter, or cry at their sheer stupidity.

      or both 😈

    181. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 2.27
      Well if only May’s government are going to be dealing with Brexit.
      Why would another referendum in Scotland be a problem?

      Because if it is then it has to be asked
      ..What is Ruth Davison For..???

    182. Anonymous says:

      Off topic…

      How many times have BBC external links been interrupted recently during interviews with constitutional experts? I can think of three just in the last week or so, but don’t have.the exact details to hand.

      Interestingly, a similar ‘technical’ issue cropped up a few years ago when Fiona Hyslop tried to give evidence by video link to a HoL constitution committee led by Ian Lang…

      I don’t recall this kind of thing happening with any great frequency in the last ten years, any takers on monitoring this kind of thing?

    183. Merry happy and peaceful Christmas break to you all.
      Thanks, Stu, for yet another remarkable year on Wings.
      I think 2017 is going to ‘trump’ even 2016.
      For a’ that and a’ that.

    184. Undeadshaun says:

      Interesting article on brexit, reveals..

      Cameron told Nicola Sturgeon she should be involved in the Brexit negotiations, Oliver says. He says Sturgeon, the Scottish first minister, was one of three people Cameron spoke to by phone on the Friday morning before he announced his resignation; the others were Michael Gove and John Major. Cameron told Sturgeon “he wants her to be involved in any negotiations”.

    185. DerekM says:

      Was talking to an old business friend yesterday we were just having a casual chat about brexit(he is French)and he said something that nobody seems to be mentioning,he said once sterling is no longer in the ERM you do know the money men will see it as direct competition and go after it.

      This i already knew but it was what he said next that really stood out and that was – though Scotland could save sterling if it was still in the EU as it would keep sterling protected inside the ERM and would give you lots of leverage over the UK.

      Been trying to look into this but been rather busy but i am presuming and so is my friend that A50 and brexit will remove sterling from the ERM,can anybody clarify this for me?

      You know i think he might be right,remember how they bashed us with it in 2014 time we threatened them with joining the Euro or creating our own currency and see how long it takes before they come begging to us to save sterling.

    186. Nana says:

      Britain Heading Towards ‘Hard Brexit’

      A new decision in the European Court of Justice will “hugely” complicate Theresa May’s task

      If I remember correctly, the politicians turned down 11bn apple tax owed. They won’t go hungry

    187. Nana says:

      Re the Irish foodbanks story, this article explains tax avoidance by big corporations

    188. Les Wilson says:

      DerekM says:

      Well, IF Scotland remained in a special deal within the UK, then yes Sterling would of course be stronger if Scotland has this arrangement. Which according to Westminster, is not going to happen.

      So that scenario will change everything, with Independence likely but not assured. However if YES is successful this time, I think there will be little support for sterling, our best option would be to peg our currency to a basket of stronger currencies.

      I doubt sterling would be considered in that, as despite the Westminster bluster it looks like sterling would be crushed.
      However there could well be a situation where Scotland would want to support sterling in some way to assist continued trade.

      However, if Westminster is really mad, enough to interfere with
      trade, then there would be no leeway given despite their pleading for support. The shoe, for once, would be on the other foot.
      So their attitude to continued trading would determine how Scotland helps or not. I do not think they would be so mad as to cause disruption, but hey, the lunatics are running the asylum….

    189. gordoz says:

      There’s an easy way to make sense of the Heralds headline today. Just take out the word Brexit?

      Another Brownesk intervention by Tom Hunter – masterstroke!
      Only trouble is Tom nobody wants to listen to your meaningless Blighty bubble blurb anymore.

      If yer no for us man, then … ? Just what is yer point? when was the last time you spoke up for Scotland and not just spouted more commercial interest mantra guff.

      Stick to the charity work and leave Scotlands future to those with a real interest and her friends at large.
      One might get the impression that he is a fan of ‘Brexit means Brexit’?

    190. sensibledave says:

      Robert J. Sutherland 9:45 pm

      Good Morning All! Just one more sleep!

      Robert, you wrote: “What puzzles me is the unshakable delusion that he seems to share with many of those he lives among, including HMGov it seems (as brewsed acutely observed upthread), that when negotiating with the EU, HMGov somehow has the upper hand, and is not the supplicant. (Or maybe Theresa and Co. do realise it, which explains why they really don’t want to talk about it.)”.

      Robert, you have not been paying attention and concentrating enough when I share my insights with you!

      In one of my first missives above, I recognised that the trading terms we end up with are in the gift of the likes of Merkel and whoever is leading France. I do not believe we have the “upper hand”, but nor do I believe that we are supplicant. We are talking about a situation where current trading arrangements are very beneficial and important to both sides – so they will continue to be so. Therefore the two parties will reach a deal because there is too much at stake if they don’t.

      Having acclimatised ourselves to the fact that we are leaving then I can see how we can agree a deal that will work for us.

      If we have to end up reverting to WTO rules then both sides will reduce their competitiveness in comparison to potential suppliers from non EU countries – and what would be the sense in that?

      I do detect that some here are uncomfortable with the idea that an equitable deal can be achieved and therefore some actually hope and desire that the outcome will be a bad one. I assume that this is because it is perceived that this may somehow help the cause for Scottish Independence?

    191. Les Wilson says:

      Ref our Ports, yes indeed we need to sort out this problem, personally I would like all our ports taken under SG control, and out of private hands. However that can be done.

      It is utter madness for our goods to be directed to English ports in order to support those ports and to the detriment of our own, and a dubious agenda by Westminster.

    192. Robert Kerr says:

      OMG SD has returned.


    193. DerekM says:

      Dont get me wrong Les i am not saying we should stay in the UK,but as brexit comes closer and indyref2 looks like it will happen and we have a great chance of winning then maybe we should just blackmail the gits.

      Independence now no referendum just given or we let sterling burn.

      I think what we are seeing from the loonies at westminster is bluff and i think we should call them and put sterling in the front line of the indy movement.

      ps we could always change our minds once we get indy if they are spouting their usual arrogant pish,plus the irony of Scotland using sterling to gain independence would be ever so funny 🙂

    194. Les Wilson says:

      DerekM says:

      Don’t worry Derek,I would condone any way to reach our aims, except UDI, “blackmail”, that would not cover what they do to us.

    195. sensibledave says:

      … and good morning to you too Mr Kerr!

      Come on, its Christmas, its a time of good will to all men – even the English!

    196. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana , Mundell nearly puts me off my breakfast at the best of times ( I have a strong stomach – most mothers/grannies have ,developed because they have had to get up to change a manky nappy between courses !)

      But this time I am left wondering , much like Wullie Rennie, what is a David Mundell for – other than irritating the life out of me and Scotland.

    197. louis.b.argyll says:

      Robert Kerr says: 9:18 am

      OMG SD has returned.

      I know Robert.
      When he’s about..even lurking here
      (a pastime for hundreds of thousands btw) has to be done at arms length with a pinch of salt.

      Maybe the Rev’s ‘grammer hammers’ are no longer a suitable deterrent.

    198. sassenach says:

      Do I hear the sounds of regurgitated p1sh?

      Surely not?

    199. G H Graham says:

      “Scotland is part of this ‘family of nations'” – David Cameron

      “I ask the people of Scotland to lead that change of our whole British constitution.” – Ed Miliband

      “It is clear that the UK in its present form is not working for everyone. To prevent the harmful divisions that now exist from deepening, we need to re-imagine the UK for new times.” – Gordon Brown

      “Here’s some ideas regarding Brexit, Scottish independence & reform of the UK’s unwritten constitution.” – Nicola Sturgeon

      “Fuck off Sturgeon, we’re busy filling out a form on a napkin.” – Theresa May

    200. Capella says:

      Forth Ports was privatised in 1992 (Wikipedia) then sold to Arcus European Investment Fund for nearly £750m.
      Interesting article by Douglas Fraser in 2011 – before the anti indy memo went out, obviously:

      “That means, of course, we’ll be able to find out far less about its operations, which matters quite a bit when you consider this is a vital strategic asset for the economy.

      Headquarters clout
      Somewhere inside a faceless, unaccountable investment house, the decisions will be made about the controversial plans for a very large biomass plant, for infrastructure to support offshore renewable power, for the future development of Edinburgh’s shorefront, for the capital’s capacity for handling cruise liners, which is very constrained at present, and even for a large expanse of seabed around Leith Docks which is not owned by the Crown Estate but by Forth Ports new owners.”

    201. Fred says:

      Such is the cost of Lagavulin (£70) this Xmas, yours truly has switched to Laphroaig (£25).

    202. mike cassidy says:

      Can I just prove again that economics is all greek to me –

      but didn’t sterling come out the ERM years ago. Big crisis and all that!

      More than happy to be wrong at this time of good cheer!

    203. Les Wilson says:

      ” Come on, its Christmas, its a time of good will to all men – even the English!”

      I have a son in England and 3 granddaughters born there along with an english daughter in law.
      I bear no grudge or dispute with the ordinary english people.

      However, ever more of them are becoming more vocal against Scotland, they are fed lies by a Westminster compliant media.
      Many are taken in by this propaganda.
      This is causing the vitriol emanating from an increasing number down south. It all trails back to Westminster and their media.

      Scotland, has been bedeviled for centuries by Westminster’s requirement to keep Scotland chained. All this propaganda is designed to keep it that way.In this day and age, we are not going to stand for it, times have changed.

      I have not heard here many, if any, really bad comments against the ordinary english people but certainly against the arrogant english ruling class. Which is entirely justified in my view anyway.

      So those who make sounds about us all being anti english are blatently mistaken, however we are anti Westminster and anti the english corrupt media, who are openly disgraceful to Scotland.

      Those who believe the anti english line need to stop being so gullable and open their eyes to the truth.

      A wee reminder SD
      I have now asked you this question twice without reply, I will ask again ” Do you believe Westminster is corrupt or not?”
      Why the difficulty in answering?

    204. sensibledave says:

      Les 9.56

      … I answered the last time you asked.

    205. Bill McLean says:

      Well said Les! May I add trolls to the list of the unwanted?

    206. heraldnomore says:

      I believe in SD.

      … and the tooth fairy, and the fat man in the red suit.

      Now let’s have nice day and raise a dram later. Have a good one folks. Big decisions to be made, Glenlivet 18 or Aberlour 16; Lussa or Rock Rose…

      Work first, sadly.

    207. sensibledaved says:

      heraldnomore 10.08

      You wrote: “I believe in SD.”

      … that is the nicest thing that has been written about me here (unless you really meant you love South Dakota!).

    208. heedtracker says:

      Sensible strikes again. BBC droning on and on about old billionaires getting choppered over to one of their dozen or so palaces, so they can tuck in to whatever billionaires have Xmas dinner.

      Meanwhile, in teamGB, most unequal country in the OECD, Operation Tornado kicks off,

      Part of a prison wing that was taken over by about 60 inmates has been reclaimed, the Prison Service has said.
      Specialist “Tornado” teams were sent into HMP Swaleside, on the Isle of Sheppey, Kent, after a disturbance at about 19:00 GMT on Thursday.
      A Prison Service spokeswoman said all those involved at the category B jail had “surrendered and were back in cells by 1am”.

    209. BJ says:


      … and the tooth fairy, and the fat man in the red suit.

      ….and the Daily Mail

    210. sensibledave says:

      Morning Heedy!

      Can I just ask, why exactly, is it that you believe I am personally responsible for anything that happens in the world? Is it because I am not an SNP voter?

    211. JohnG says:

      DerekM the UK left the ERM in 1992. Always remember Lamont being pushed out the door infront of the press and cameras to make the announcement. He looked like he had filled his pants. I think Dave was probably the person who pushed him out and shut the door behind him.

      I’m sure when Scotland gets independence there will be a further drop in sterling if Scotland were to create it’s own currency. I imagine then the UK chancellor will be begging Scotland to keep the pound 🙂

    212. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 23 December, 2016 at 12:14 am:

      ” … The UK administration is not fit for purpose”

      Aye! Capella, but that statement depends upon what your point of view is.

      If it is that you want to keep down the Scots by depriving them of the facts and figures then the government of England at Westminster does a brilliant job.

      It is certainly the Government of the country of England now. That job was made clear with the introduction of EVEL.

      They already had a numerical advantage :-

      England 533:
      Wales 40:
      Scotland 59:
      N.I. 18:
      Total 650:

      But that was not good enough for them after they had to implement devolved parliaments, and make no mistake they were forced to devolve powers even if Westminster Labour claims otherwise.

      So they brought in devolution but as the United Kingdom is a union of two Kingdoms and not a union of countries they decided to use, “Divide and conquer”, and not only split up the United Kingdom as four unequal countries but did not instigate a parliament for the country of England.

      Instead they unwittingly revealed the rear truth that, in their minds only, the United Kingdom was not just the actual Kingdom of England but actually the parliament of the country of England. Even although the facts are that the Kingdom of England that signed up to the Treaty of Union was a three country Kingdom.

      This was made clear in a Westminster commissioned paper that was described by David Mundell as, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed The Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.

      By leaving Westminster as the effective Parliament of the country of England they cut off both Wales & N.I. as integral parts of the Kingdom of England and relegated The Kingdom of Scotland as just another underling country under the country of England’s control.

      That too was not enough for them and they introduced EVEL and thus banned other than MPs from English constituencies from voting upon what they decided were England Only matters.

      So there you go Capella, if your purpose is to subjugate the Jocks, Taffies and Paddies the Westminster Parliament is doing an absolutely brilliant job.

      However, if you are a Jock, Taffie or Paddy and you do not clamour for proper equality or decide you want out of an abusive administration then the most mild thing you are is syncophant.

      (and the Rev Stu won’t let me tell the truth of what a Jock, Taffie or Paddy who does not want independence or at least proper equality and he substitutes other terms for the truth).

    213. Capella says:

      Quite so Robert. The Departments of State in Westminster do not serve the interests of Scotland and should be scrapped, or the Treaty annulled. The good people of England deserve to have their own parliament. Perhaps the Welsh will want a Referendum to choose which partnership they want to retain – if any.

    214. DerekM says:

      @ mike cassidy

      I dont think it did mike what happened was the UK pulled out from the conditions needed to join the Euro and made a big song and dance about it when that was always the position of the UK,other countries have done this as well.

      The ERM is the body that facilitates countries currencies into joining the Euro,however it is also there to stop EU countries playing fast and loose with other EU currencies a kind of integration protection umbrella,well you do not attack your own economy that is a bit daft.

      As far as i know if you are a member of the EU then you are in the ERM cant see them allowing a member state not to be in it goes hand in hand with the EU project.

      Need to go study up on this a bit more i think,could be the big stick we need and it was also the reason the UK joined the EU in the first place to protect sterling from being a sitting duck currency and avoid economic warfare with the EU.

    215. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 11.05

      You wrote: “It is certainly the Government of the country of England now. That job was made clear with the introduction of EVEL.”

      Robert, I recall the outrage (based mostly on a complete lack of understanding by most here) at the very thought of the introduction of EVEL. At that time, the feeling here was that it meant the end of civilisation as we knew it.

      I spent hours repeating the fact that EVEL laws could only be brought in with the passing of the law via full the parliament. I had to repeat umpteen times that Scottish MPs (along with everyone else) would have to vote for a new EVEL law to be passed.

      Now a year or so has passed, and what? How has EVel affected anyone other than the potential rights of the ENglish on English only matters. You will also recall that Ms Sturgeon whipped the SNP MPs to vote on the matter of foxhunting in ENgland – even though she had expressedly promised, before ther election, that she would not.

      Those days are gone now and EVEL has proven to be a complete non-issue – just I said it would be.

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 23 December, 2016 at 9:27 am:

      “Come on, its Christmas, its a time of good will to all men – even the English!”

      As we say in Scots, “Awa an bile yer heid”, Sensibledave.

      No one here, who regularly comments on Wings, bears any malice to the good people of England, (note that I use the term. “People of England”, and not, “The English”.

      The reason being that, “The people of Scotland”, is defined as, “those of any creed, colour or country of origin who are mainly resident in Scotland and who are registered to vote in Scottish elections”.

      Naturally, then, we include as the people of England, “those of any creed, colour or country of origin who are mainly resident in Scotland England and who are registered to vote in Scottish English elections”.

      It seems you have the wrong impression, or are trying to make the false point, that we are all racist who hate, or dislike, “The English”.

      By doing so you only succeed in proving your own racist credentials. Not to mention you are attempting to play, “The Victim”, card.

      Our independence gripe is totally with the Westminster Establishment and that includes such as the CofE hierarchy, the UK Armed Forces hierarchy, the Westminster Civil Service hierarchy, the English education hierarchy, The Security Services and the HOL in total. Not forgetting the Westminster unionist parties.

      Sadly, after Her Majesty’s purring episode during Indyref1 we now must also include the Royals in the above list.

      It does BTW: also include the MSM, (Main Stream Media), including the broadcasters of Westminster propaganda and the English/British nationalists like yourself.

      Now let’s see you deny it?

    217. galamcennalath says:

      “Six months on from the Brexit vote, Euronews caught up with five EU nationals based in Britain to find out how they have been coping since the referendum.

      Elena, a freelance journalist from Bulgaria …. the general feeling is that foreigners are more unwelcome …. Brexit is part of the reason she is thinking about moving to Scotland, which voted in favour of remaining in the EU “

    218. Dan Huil says:

      Only rabid britnats believe their so-called united kingdom is savable. The irony being it’s the actions of these same britnats which are doing the most damage to the so-called united kingdom. They should be encouraged.

    219. Les Wilson says:

      sensibledave says:

      Well I cannot find your answer, so a simple Yes or no, would not be too hard to repeat.

    220. defo says:

      You should know better at your age Robert 😉

    221. Jack Murphy says:

      OT.Some Christmas Cheer.
      Eaton Square,London and The Scores,St.Andrews.

      “London’s Eaton Square has been named the most expensive place to buy property in Britain, with a home costing an average of nearly £17m.

      The Scores, St Andrews, tops Scotland’s list with an average of almost £2.2m.”

      Only £2.2 million for the Scores,St.Andrews.

      I knew it—-we are too poor!

      Quotes courtesy of BBC England.

    222. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      23 December, 2016 at 10:52 am
      Morning Heedy!

      Can I just ask, why exactly, is it that you believe I am personally responsible for anything that happens in the world?

      I know that planet toryboy satisfies your greed, your deeply selfish greed, and ofcourse your entirely predictable union jacked wrapped British nationalism sensible, among other things.

      Toryboys like you are a only able to survive because of FPTP though, which is its both weird, very sad and not going to change.

      We have toryboys like you here in your Scotland region, but they are merely a pressure group for the rich, the thick, and unionists.

      Considering the massive tory BBC led media pressure to vote tory up here, it’s an endless surprise to not wake up and find Ruthie Babes Davidson is not in fact Scotland’s First Minister.

      Would you be surprised to know that from our deeply corrupt BBC Scotland chums, to every single Scots newspaper, much vaunted and adored Ruthie babes, gets treated like she is in fact our FM sensible?

      Two countries sensible, one thinks it owns the other, but not for much longer.

    223. sassenach says:

      Courier poll!!

      Having seen their last two polls on politics putting Indy and Nicola on top – they have now shifted to “what kind of Xmas tree do you have”!!! Feart??

    224. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Silly Dave only has to make a couple of comments to start you all off again like a junkie to a needle.

      Yesterday’s thread was ruined by acres of brit nat garbage and our apparent addiction to rattle off rebuttles to every f*****g bit of crap. When someone new from the brit nat con brigade starts off with their crap by all means get the info out and pin them down.

      But he’s not in the least bit interested in your corrections, he’s out to f**k up the thread and spread false information AND to goad you in to reacting.

      He’s good at that and you’re just suckers for falling into the same trap every time.

      SORRY if I’m treading on some toes now but there has to be an awareness of how far we need to go without giving cause for a round of drinks at GCHQ.

    225. Dr Jim says:

      Probably like most folk I only know about Scottish and British politics that’s after Iv’e tried to sift through the British lies, you know the easier ones to spot
      But here’s the point I wanted to make

      Vladimir Putin does open press conferences where he answers questions posed to him from hundreds of people at a time on subjects he doesn’t control

      Theresa May can’t and wont answer questions posed to her from her own party and yet the British are always claiming the Russian guy is the baddie, and this follows a report that the British foreign office has been lying to us for years (and it’s not fake news)

      Now I’m not suggesting that old Vlad is the number one guy but in a time when we discover by watching every other news channel but BBC or ITV that there are more deaths and destruction in Yemen than Syria and the good old Brits are behind it

      It does make you wonder, who the hell are the good guys or are there any at all and if we care how do we know we care about the right thing because the chances are we’re being lied to so we might as well bang our faces into a wall

      I have to mention George Galloway who has made an intervention once again into Scottish politics which are again none of his business and his lack of geographical knowledge as with many people who tend not to live in Scotland regarding the location of Hadrians Wall and whether or not Scotland under Sturgeons despotic and dictatorship rule will be manning machine guns to repel the hated English from our borders whilst at the same time leaking illegal immigrants from Scotland into England to terrorise, rape people, and women as well, plus steal jobs from the folks down there, all for Sturgeons deluded ego apparently (I don’t like it when people just say Sturgeon you know it means they’re biased, and then it just invalidates the shite they’re trying to push)

      George Galloway has an opinion, and like arseholes everyone has one, but George does have a bigger opinion than everyone else

    226. Dan Huil says:

      It’s rather quaint that so many britnats really believe their so-called united kingdom can survive intact.

    227. DerekM says:

      @ JohnG

      You could be right about that then which body protects sterling from being in direct competition with the Euro and keeps sterling as an EU currency,it must be an EU currency as we are in the EU.

      Yes need to look into this more i think 😉

    228. SensibleDave is like a giant turd that refuses to get flushed,

      even the professor of turd removal,Scott Arthur,would be defeated by the size and stench,

      anyhoo, away out for Christmas shopping,

      hopefully Stu has an industrial plunger,rubber gloves,and plenty Domestos Bleach and manages to `rid us of this troublesome turd`.

    229. HandandShrimp says:


      The poll on leaders didn’t last long. Clearly wasn’t going the way they wanted.

    230. sassenach says:

      heedtracker @12-01

      Well said, particularly the final sentence.
      Ruth the Moose (Scots not Canadian type, of course) is becoming more pathetic by the day – Smirky will be after her position soon, anyway.

    231. galamcennalath says:

      Dan Huil says:

      It’s rather quaint that so many britnats really believe their so-called united kingdom can survive intact.

      Indeed! And what kind of UK do they foresee? I suspect for most of them, they wish things were just as they were 5-10-15-20 years ago when they personally were doing just fine with the setup.

      Well guys, tough – the world, Scotland, and England are moving on.

    232. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 22 December, 2016 at 1:42 pm:


      Oh! YES YOU DID! (It’s Panto season).

      ” … I am nobody.”

      OH! YES YOU ARE!

      ” … I live in England,”

      Prove it?

      ” … I didnt vote in the scottish referendum.”

      It’s behind you!

      ” … I am not a hack, a politician or an activist of any sort and I didnt “fight” for anyone or anything in the referendum.”

      Oh! YES YOU DID!

      You were on Wings fighting against Wingers and for the Union – now don’t deny it.

    233. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Graf Midgehunter said.

    234. galamcennalath says:

      Hootsmon…. “The Queen is reported to have been ‘disappointed’ with Theresa May after she declined to share details of her plans for leaving the European Union during her first visit to Balmoral.” … could that be because there still are no plans?

    235. sassenach says:

      “What Graf Midgehunter said”


    236. heedtracker says:

      sassenach says:
      23 December, 2016 at 12:13 pm
      heedtracker @12-01

      Professor Smirky, to you. That’s his plan. His toryboy ego was already hugely inflated before he didn’t get elected to Holyrood. Now its gone galactic.

      The heat under Ruthie babes grows with every FMQ and she knows it. If they dont get what they want in the council elections in May, no changes, watch the very creepy BBC led vote Ruthie stuff start to wane.

    237. Capella says:

      @ Sassenach – is there a Scots Pine option on that Courier poll? Or a Norway Spruce?

    238. galamcennalath says:

      One of the many failures of the media is that they quote reports without any link to the actual source. We are expected to take their analysis as accurate!

      Over the last few days there have been a lot of articles quoting a fairly pessimism report from a group of academics on Brexit.

      Here, I believe, is the original document.

    239. crazycat says:

      @ DerekM

      When I saw your comment, I thought “but the pound isn’t in the ERM” – so I checked.

      According to wikipedia, mike cassidy and JohnG are correct. The ERM which sterling was forced to leave in 1992 has been replaced by ERMII, of which the only current member is the Danish krone. Various other currencies are supposed to join, but show no sign of doing so (hence the rejection of the idea that an independent Scotland would have to join the euro). (a slightly muddled article, I think, but sterling is definitely not in.

    240. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fireproofjim says: 22 December, 2016 at 2:31 pm:

      Sensibledave and replies are taking up far too much of this thread. I don’t mind hearing the Unionist argument but this is just repetitive and going round in boring circles”

      Yes, Fireproofjim, but that is the Westminster way things are done.

    241. DerekM says:

      thanks crazycat

      So is it just EU membership and the single market that protects sterling from being in direct competition with other EU currencies and keep it integrated inside the EU economy.

      Either way sterling could still be a good indyref2 weapon,it wasnt until i started looking into this that i realized just how little we have been told about how the EU works.

    242. Proud Cybernat says:


      Not sure if anyone has posted this.

      Inform Scotland’s BBC Billboards will be going up from 16th Jan 2017. The billboard campaign will be complimented by an AdVan campaign, getting the message mobile and right into busy city centres. (Make sure you get your piccy taken beside one if you see it).

      Also, some 40,000 BBC Mis-Reporting Scotland stickies have been distributed all over Scotland.

    243. sensibledave says:

      Les @ 11.57

      OK Let me answer in short form.

      Are average constituency MP’s corrupt? … No, not the vast majority.

      Are there individuals that are corrupt? …. Yes

      Are there parties that are financially corrupt? …. Probably not on purpose in the main.

      Are their MPs that think one thing and vote the other way? Certainly

      Are their parties that break their promises? Yes, all of them.
      Is Westminster corrupt? I don’t really know what you mean. Westminster comprises 600 odd MPs of various parties all trying to achieve different things whilst dealing with the realities of the potential outcomes in the lobbies. Party whips get some individuals to do things that that they don’t personally believe in – is that what you mean by corrupt?

      We also see instances where parties (usually those in opposition) conduct themselves in a manner that is purely designed to cause disruption in the house rather than contribute anything meaningful to process of making or changing law. Is that corrupt?

    244. Breastplate says:

      My own opinion regarding visiting Unionists to this site is that it would be poorer without them.
      Of course there are different types of Unionists I personally don’t believe that Sensibledave falls into the category of troll. GWC on scotgoespop is what I would categorise as a troll.

      I quite like it when he shows up now and again as he stimulates debate and we get a look at the dark side of the Yoon.
      I believe it also helps further our cause for independence when they put their poor arguments and dishonesty on show for all to see.

      Of course, there has to be a balance and they shouldn’t be allowed to disrupt the thread like the imbecile on Scotgoespop but generally speaking I don’t believe we have a problem here.
      I understand if people disagree.

    245. One_Scot says:

      A wise man once said, ‘all you are succeeding in doing is giving a child like mentality something to keep itself occupied.’

    246. Dan Huil says:

      @Proud Cybernat12:59pm

      The AdVan is a very good idea. Especially since it will be showing a statement as opposed to a question on the billboards.

    247. The Rough Bounds. says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 12.59

      It’s not ‘complimented’, It’s ‘complemented’. There is a vast difference in the meaning of the words.

    248. Clapper57 says:

      Graf Midgehunter says:@12.08pm

      Halle-feckin-lujah… last someone willing to restore some feckin sanity ….twas getting predictably repetitive… only said what needed to be said….long overdue….and by God you nailed it buddy.

      Have a fantastic day.

    249. Proud Cybernat says:

      …oh, and here’s the link to the ‘London Calling’ documentary in case anyone missed it:

      Let’s keep the pressure on the BBC in Scotland.

    250. Lenny Hartley says:

      Many orbits around our star ago, I was on my first canvassing night in Fyvie , Aberdeenshire, I was put with an old hand , who I’m glad to say is still active coz I saw him on TV at the SNP conference, anyways after a while wandering about chapping doors I was talking to an elderly couple at their door, come in for a cuppa , it’s freezing outside, she says as I was about to enter I got a sharp elbow in the ribs from the old groat. He steps in and says thanks but we must move on , walking away I said I fancied a cuppa he said typical Unionist tactic , come over nice and invite you in for a cuppa and a chat. Standard delaying tactics, stops you getting round all the doors. SD is at the same tactic we have been succerred into wasting our time replying to his posts, new year resolution ignore the trolls.

    251. yesindyref2 says:

      In itself sterling is totally independent of the euro and the EU, it’s free floating against all world currencies.

      But the economy of the UK is linked with that of the EU, so if the EU suffers, the UK suffers with it, and the euro drops against the dollar, and the pound drops against the dollar.

      But before Brexit, the pound was seen as a safe haven so when the EU economy suffered, the euro dropped, holdings in euros could be switched to the pound, and the pound would rise.

      Both of those contradictory position could happen at the same time, or one after the other – a drop then a rise. In fact as a safe haven, that could help to stabilise the price of the £, at least against the dollar. Though of course if the USA economy looked a problem, funds could switch to the £ – or the euro, while the dollar dropped.

      Since the Brexit vote the pound is not really seen any more as a safe haven, so it’s more volatile, and doesn’t get the safe haven compensations.

      I think!

    252. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Rough Bounds

      Just as well I’m no’ the one writing the billboards!! Lol!

    253. terry says:

      @Les Wilson

      well said – it’s Westminster not the English that are the problem.

      You will note though that UKIP supporters fly English flags – not Union Jacks. A lot of the anti-Scots sentiment is fed by media lies and the likes of Paul Nuttall’s opinions of the Scots “they take, take, take”.

      UKIP should just change their name to EIP. Sadly their form of self-determination is the polar opposite of the SNP and the Greens. If they manage to get their act together they will win seats in North England – and if we are still in the rotten Union then I predict the next General Election will see a Tory/Ukip coalition. Which will ape even further up to Trump. What will those Blairite no voters think of that?

    254. geeo says:

      For what it’s worth, my take on recent stuff.
      Originally my response to some yoon goon talking pish on facebook. (Shock surprise huh)?

      Nicola has run rings around the Tory government since june 23rd.

      What to some looked a bit futile in July is looking genius now.

      The statement from the SNP paper “Scotland’s place in Europe” that “this document represents a huge compromise for us (SG) considering we desire independence” is utter genius.

      Nicola knows that there is no chance the Tory government can accept it, not because it is a poor idea, but more because it is a GREAT idea which addresses the constitutional issue for a long time.

      The SNP could not justify an indyref vote if TM agreed to the plan put by the SG, the trouble (for May) is that, if she agreed to the plan put to her, she would look incredibly weak as a leader.

      Imagine the right wing media headlines !
      She would be ridiculed and shredded for allowing the (hated) SNP to decide the brexit deal on their (SG) terms, despite the fact that the offered deal would address many of the most serious issues facing the Tory government regarding brexit.

      If Scotland were in the single market (or as it SHOULD be known, the INTERNAL market) the financial sector could move their brass plates to Scotland to remain in the EU and secure their vital ‘passporting’ rights to continue trading within the EU market.

      The Scottish Indy question would also be resolved for a long time, unless the Tories did something stupid of course, as it would be hard to justify after WM agreed to a SG plan of such magnitude.

      Despite these major advantages of the SG plan, the Tories will simply ignore the SG plan and crash ahead without a clue what they are doing.

      WHY ?

      Because they really ARE that arrogant that they think that the EU will roll over and do what the Uk tells them (AS IF !!) and the Scots will do what they are told (again) albeit with some more scaremongering as before. Remember, all they need to do is convince or frighten enough to get a 50% + 1 person majority, they do not need to even win the arguments.

      We have to be ready, we are fighting for the rights of the future generations of Scotland to a decent life and a decent standard of life, without having to leave Scotland to get it.

      If we lose a 2nd indyref the SNP should step aside at Holyrood and refuse to field candidates in the resultant election, maybe once No voters see the alternative to the hard working SNP they will realise just how wrong they were..?

      The SNP would sweep back to power even if they ran with an election manifesto pledge to call UDI if they won the election.

      Imagine the unionist panic if THAT was an election pledge …!!

      “Vote SNP for UDI”.

      Emphasise on the words “IMAGINE IF”, just for yoon lurkers.

    255. Liz g says:

      What Graf Midgiehunter, Proud Cybernat & other’s have said.

      I am a fairly commited reader of Wings and enjoy the debate almost every day,but even I left yesterday because of that senseable Dave guy spoiling the conversation.

      So goodness knows what a more casual visitor would think.

      Yesterday Wings was getting ranked as a quality political blog and chances are some new people will check us out.
      And that fool was making it into the kind of circular argument that happens BTL in the Daily Mail.
      Almost every post inviting or claiming insult.

    256. Capella says:

      What Graf Midhunter said too. Total ignoral is the only cure. And it does get tedious having to scroll past endless posts and replies.

    257. Legerwood says:

      Liz g @ 1.32pm

      Totally agree with you and others of like mind.

      Spoiled the blog completely.

    258. galamcennalath says:

      Liz g says:

      So goodness knows what a more casual visitor would think.

      I am sure they are the target. As The Rev himself says, when something big occurs, traffic on WoS goes up. A lot of these will be new or occasional visitors.

      I obviously haven’t done an analysis, but I get the distinction impression that threads are disrupted to plan rather than randomly.

    259. heedtracker says:

      Spoiled the blog completely.

      Its not a blog, its Btl comments section. Readers make their own minds up, just like you, and you and you and you:D

    260. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Yes, we need (I need) to avoid getting sucked in. But if a reply can make a good point, a solid argument perhaps it should be done – and then left at that, no getting sucked in to guff.

      I find the idiots useful elsewhere, as sometimes there’s a lot needs to be said but you want your posting to be perhaps 4 paragraphs of 3 lines, concise and to the point. But there’s more you really want to say. Along comes some useful idiot with the “blah blah SNP Bad”, and you get to make the other points you had to keep back. OBE was very useful for that 🙂

    261. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 22 December, 2016 at 2:34 pm:

      So indyref, in your continued efforst to do us down,”

      Who, sensibledave is this, “us”, you identify yourself with?

      Is it the UK, the country of England, the kingdom of England, Britain or Great Britain?

      ” … now I have to show you a list of GDP in 000, Biliions (the tabbing may lose something on the cut and paste) ….”

      Nah! You needs not do so. It will, however, lose a great deal in obfuscation, omission and fact fiddling.

      I’ll confine myself to just one aspect of that whole ream of lies you posted above.

      The Westminster figures have always been manipulated in many, many ways.

      One such manipulation will suffice to rubbish the entire Westminster pack of lies you so, “innocently”, posted.

      I expect you will not respond to this post as it would be to admit the whole Westminster parcel of rogues are – well! a whole parcel of rogues.

      The way that United Kingdom exports are accounted for by Westminster is designed to show that the England is in a far better financial position than England really is.

      To do so they count Scottish, Welsh and N.I. produced goods that leave the United Kingdom via English ports and airports as English exports.

      BTW: They also make sure the English ports infrastructure is well to the fore and sell off the other country’s ports and airports to private companies who do not update them and who charge exorbitant rates for their use. Thus boosting English figures and reducing Scots, Welsh and Irish figures.

      For example who is it that pays for the constant upgrading of Heathrow?

      Like the London transport systems, London new sewerage system and other things claimed as, “National Assets”, (and thus also free of Barnett Consequentials), the entire UK pays but only London and the South East benefit.

      Now just consider four items, oil, gas, Whisky and Gin.

      The entire oil & gas revenue from Scottish territorial waters is classed by Westminster as being part of the produce of, “Extra-Region Territory”, yet between 95% & 98% of it comes from waters under Scottish jurisdiction.

      The Whisky & Gin is mainly exported via English ports & airports. Now note this – 70% of all gins produced in the UK now come from Scotland.

      So just what is the point of screeds and screeds of highly erroneous figures at us?

      Either you know these figures are utter claptrap and you are deliberately attempting to mislead Wingers or you don’t know and are a Westminster, “ignorant but useful idiot”.

      Either way it nails you for what you are. No one believes your claim to be just an innocent bystander who is being victimised along with, “The English”, by Wingers. I say again – our fight is with the Westminster Establishment and not with the normally good people of England, who, by the way are just as much victims of the Westminster Mafia as the rest of the so called United Kingdom.

      Here is a little truth – let’s see you deny it?

      Scotland is a net exporter of food, fuels and power.
      England is a net importer of all three and Scotland’s main market. Yet even then the UN claims all gas & oil revenues and most of the exports of all four items.

      Face it, sensibledave, you, and the Union are an anachronism that is about to be eradicated and you both know it.

      Now just in case you do not comprehend what an anachronism is I’ll define it for you :-

      “a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned.”

    262. Fred says:

      The value of this site is incalculable & giving a troll free-rein to piss all over it benefits nobody. The Graf is 100% correct. If we have to have this shite there should be a troll-thread for trolls & troll-baiters.

    263. Legerwood says:

      “”heedtracker says:
      23 December, 2016 at 1:47 pm
      Spoiled the blog completely.

      Its not a blog, its Btl comments section. Readers make their own minds up, just like you, and you and you and you:D””

      Was having lunch and generally multitasking as women do at this time of year when I wrote the post and could not think of the right word at the time.

      By the way, is your New Year’s resolution going to be a decision to use quotation marks when using a quote from someone elses post and mentioning their name? It would go a long way to making your posts easier to follow.

    264. Fireproofjim says:

      I come back to Wings after about 24 hours and what do I find?
      The thread is STILL dominated by endless, tedious posts by sensibledave and gullible (copyright Rock) posters taking up most of what should be a wide ranging discussion on Scotland’s Independence. This boring nonsense, is probably meant to spoil the most intelligent pro-independence site, and will drive even committed wingers to look elsewhere.
      I am not in favour of censorship and am always open to hear what unionists have to say, but his numerous posts are designed to deliberately clog up our discussions and invoke insults, which will probably be used against us.
      First rule -Never reply.
      Second rule – if this continues request a block on sensibledave from the Rev.

    265. heedtracker says:

      Legerwood says:
      23 December, 2016 at 2:18 pm
      “”heedtracker says:

      Just teasing you Legerwood. But people can make their own minds up, just like you have and will. Sensible clearly fancies himself as a clever clever Britnat but they all do.

      Notice how sensible never ever dares broach the real reason he’s on here, bashing away UKOK…what will England actually be like, when they do finally lose control of Scotland and are out of the EU, with whatever Brexit deal they have been given.

      If he’s good at anything, he’s good at keeping us all focused on what England wants, needs, decidederises, but he never uses England, is always “us” in the UK.

      Its all for our own good though, silly Scottish types up there, in our Scotland region of greater England.

    266. K1 says:

      Yeah Fred a mirrored ‘virtual’ room should be set up where all they do is hear the echo of their own shite reflected back to them…where they think they are talking to others but really they are arguing with their own split personality. Ranging and raging at imagined insults and insinuations, paranoid defensive prattling interjected with incoherent pish spewed out spasmodic like all over themselves. Blaming their own imagined foes, figments of their own fevered sickness for their state…

      I’d love that sort of unity on any thread when the demented ones show up, just for a laugh really: for absolutely no one to respond and watch it unfold for what it is…seriously, code word: ‘Shite Club’ Lol…

      *wanders off….a cliff*

    267. Breeks says:

      One for the Rev, but lots of sites have BTL filters where posts with enough negative marks remain to be read, but you have to click on them to see the content. Not censorship, but good housekeeping?

      I don’t mind myself. I have scroll button which makes nuisance comments disappear. Sadly, not always so effective on the nuisances themselves, but no system is perfect.

    268. K1 says:

      Can’t access the page Ronnie, not on Facebook and it wants an fb password, can someone post it in another way so it can be seen by those who don’t have fb accounts?

    269. Les Wilson says:

      sensibledave says:

      What you have said is a smokescreen, I asked if you thought Westminster was corrupt, yes or no. What you have given is waffle.
      For the avoidance of doubt when I said Westminster it is the whole institution of Westminster, that which governs us.

      Why not just declare your case, is it corrupt or not.

      Do not try and avoid by breaking my question down to parts individual persons or positions, just give a straight answer. Not hard, a two or three letter word.

      You are not unintelligent Dave, you have a lot of facts at your finger tips,as you constantly demonstrate. You know what I meant but choose to fudge an answer. Not good enough. Although I never really expected it to be.

    270. Les Wilson says:

      It is gone ronnie, they are quick to delete. So we are being constantly monitored.

    271. Legerwood says:

      heedtracker @ 2.30 pm

      Thought you might be teasing but yesterday really wore me down with SD’s posts, and the rotten weather. What a combination!

      Have a very merry Christmas – and remember your New Year’s resolution -“”!

    272. ronnie anderson says:

      Re my post at 2.38 BBC Bias Protest.

      Facebook have removed the share button so we have to depend on people to share the posting manually to they’re friends & anybody using Twitter please share the F/B page & across all the social media sites .

      Lets make this a Big gathering Folks.

      ( Mibbees the Rev could put in a appearance & speak ) I’ll reserve ah spot just in case

    273. galamcennalath says:

      Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp on Business for Scotland ….

      The Tories in Westminster can’t do a special deal for Scotland and allow us to stay in the single market as the UK leaves, as watching Scotland use its new found economic advantage to massively boost exports, create jobs, steal finance sector jobs from London, raise our GDP and move towards a high paid surplus generating economy. As Scotland would effectively be independent, in all but name, the final step would be inevitable and widely supported as Westminster’s drain on our economy would become demonstrable. The Scottish Government has offered the Union a chance to save itself and its dammed if it takes it (within a decade) and its dammed if it doesn’t (within 2 years).

      Sounds spot on to me.

    274. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 22 December, 2016 at 2:47 pm

      “Really, folks, we must stop feeding the troll.”


      There isn’t that much else going on just now anyway. As the Rev Stu said in this thread.

      In any case, to use a troll’s efforts to highlight that the troll’s efforts are utterly wrong can be used to illustrate the weakness of the Yoon Loon Goons best efforts.

      It is all in the choice of what you pick to reply to.

      If it is just insults or idiocy then just ignore it. If it serves to make a good point then use the chance to make the good point clearer.

      The thing is that who you are thinking is a Troll seems more likely to be a Westminster paid for agent.

      If so then keeping that agent busy is no bad thing. Nothing that such an agent can do will change wingers but if the agent is operating elsewhere then they could be affecting other potential indy supporters.

      I notice the style of these people is all quite similar in character. As it would be if they are all being schooled by the same agency such as MI5 or MI6. More than likely it is this Brigade:-

      And I quote, “Against a background of 24-hour news, smartphones and social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, the force will attempt to control the narrative”.

      I believe that if we hit them hard enough and only allow the, “narrative”, to be controlled by wingers they will be failing in their sworn duty – For which sworn duty they swear allegiance to the Queen of England.

      Twa spuges wi ae stane. Elizabeth II, (Of England), rather than Elizabeth Queen of Scots.

      You will notice the current agent, if agent he/she is, has several times attempted to turn the narrative to Wingers hating the English.

      No common troll would go to the lengths of researching reams of UK government figures and posting them on wings.

    275. K1 says:

      ‘I notice the style of these people is all quite similar in character.’

      Uncannily so Robert. AhuraMazdaSensibleRave…they’re aw wan 😉

    276. Les Wilson says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      So Ronnie, what was the gist of the facebook posting?

    277. Dan Huil says:

      @geeo 1:25pm

      Nicola Sturgeon has completely outplayed Westminster britnats. I can only guess that May is relying on the polls about Scottish independence being accurate and immovable. After a year like 2016?!

    278. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @3-01pm

      I can see your point, and it is good to see when someone (like yourself) proceeds to destroy ‘sensible’s ‘ arguments. But I also appreciate that some folk will be put off visiting Wings when things get sidetracked by a troll.

      I’m just a simple Winger and don’t pretend to know what would be the optimum course of action to alleviate this ongoing cancer.

    279. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 22 December, 2016 at 2:58 pm:

      ” …Please, try and keep up. We were talking about Brexit”

      Nah! Dave, YOU are attempting to talk about Brexit, i.e. Britain’s exit but the truth is way above your wee pointy head.

      Nether Westminster, England or the UK are factually Britain. They are, though, all British. Just not all of Britain as you lot would have everyone believe.

      There is, as yet, no certainty that what actually pulls out of the EU will be other than at most the UK of GB& NI. but more likely it will just be England and perhaps the English Principality of Wales.

      Northern Ireland and Scotland are democratically against the exit and Wales may yet join them.

      The rest of us are talking about Scottish Independence. In any case you have never poster an original thought to this forum – ever.

      You spout the official Westminster, (i.e. the actual parliament of the country of England that is attempting to dictate and impose England’s parliamentary mantras upon what they view as their subservient, partly devolved with useless powers, subservient underlings.

      Trouble is dave, the natives are revolting. BTW: We are not anti-English nor are we anti-England. We are anti-Westminster rule. Point is that it was not the Scots who decided to change the terms of the Treaty of Union it was Westminster.

      So tell us, Dave, what right has Westminster to change the terms of the Union and make England the country in charge?

    280. Marcia says:

      I see from the Rev’s twittery thing that his blog is rated number 7 in the present UK and 56 worldwide ahead of many long established blogs.

      Congratulations young man.

      Have a good festive period folks.

    281. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Les Wilson & All Wingers.

      BBC BIAS PROTEST 26th March 14.00 to16.00 Jock Scott MC, other speakers being contacted at the moment , we’ll get the F/B page sorted as soon as.

    282. ronnie anderson says:

      John McDowall shared a link to the event: BBC bias peaceful protest.
      8 mins ·
      BBC Blah Blah

      Yew Choob presents ‘BBC Blah,Blah’
      Yew Choob would like to pay tribute to everyone who has taken to the streets or went online to protest at the BBC’s coverage of the Scottish independence ref…

    283. yesindyref2 says:

      Could I suggest a useful thing to do in the absence of anything startling apart from the so-called impartial Tom Hunter saying we shouldn’t have a referendum as it’s a disruption of Brexit, that some os us look at the new BBC Charter which runs from 1st Jan 2017? I’ve just started:

    284. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fireproofjim says: 23 December, 2016 at 2:21 pm:

      ” … First rule -Never reply.
      Second rule – if this continues request a block on sensibledave from the Rev.”

      Err! Excuse me Fireproofjim, but you do not lay down the rules on the Rev Stu’s blog.

      The thing is that, an individual, like yourself, has two ways to deal with anything you do not want to read.

      One is to scroll on past it.

      The second, and more constructively, is that you could just go ahead with these more important to YOU issues you would rather be dealing with.

      Is there, perhaps, something preventing YOU from introducing these more important matters that are important to you?

    285. yesindyref2 says:

      I quite like this one from the new BBC Charter:

      42. Appearing before the devolved assemblies

      (1) The BBC must comply with a request of a devolved assembly or a committee of a devolved assembly —
      (a) to attend its proceedings for the purpose of giving evidence; and
      (b) to submit reports,
      (in the same way that it must comply with a request of either House of Parliament or
      one of their committees) concerning matters relating to the nation to which the
      assembly relates.
      (2) For the purposes of this article, “devolved assembly” means the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly.

      Hold the *&^%$&*s nice nice people, to account. I see thy use the word “assembly” for two assemblies and in parliament. F’ing typical. Inaccuracy and bias even in their Charter itself.

    286. yesindyref2 says:

      Cold fingers. “I see thy use the word “assembly” for two assemblies and in parliament.” should of course be “I see they use the word “assembly” for two assemblies and ONE parliament.”

    287. David says:

      A very revealing article was posted today on the BBC website. Jawdropping stuff for me, I was shocked by it and feel the need to share it.
      What it reveals is the BritNat mindset, as shared by the BBC, MSM, those in the Westminster bubble, ‘little Englanders’, and those who think Britain = UK = England.

      or the archived version:

      “What did the Brexit vote reveal about the UK?” by Mark Easton, BBC Home Editor. He is no junior lackey, he is high up in the BBC hierarchy.

      It is about why we voted for Brexit, namely because people “felt powerless and ignored”, and they are “disconnected” from politics.
      But the article is ENTIRELY about England and Wales.

      There is absolutely no mention, let alone discussion, of Scotland and of N Ireland. We have been “disconnected” by the author. In a ‘UK Politics’ essay. It is like reading news from a different country, the UK of Eng & Wales.

      No acknowledgement of the different, better, voting system at Holyrood. For him, Westminster is everything, Westminster is all.

      We are not being ignored on purpose, it happens because it is second nature to Mr Easton, and presumably to many more like him. He considers himself ‘British’, but his Britain must be a very small place indeed. He describes himself here, and it is very revealing:

      I want absolutely no part of the Britain/UK/England that this article shows.

    288. David says:

      Anent this:
      “I want absolutely no part of the Britain/UK/England that this article shows.”

      Need to add:

      But then, I AM no part of this Britain/UK/England, as Scotland and N Ireland have been airbrushed out of it!

    289. Gary45% says:

      RE Indy Ref 2.
      The TWUNTS are shitting themselves.
      Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
      Roll on 2017.
      It will be the same pish as usual from the Twunts Daf 2017

      Trump will still be an arsehole and Israel will still be committing genocide.
      Bah FUC*ING humbug.

    290. Thepnr says:

      @ronnie anderson

      Here’s a wee punt for Yew Choob.

    291. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Robert Peffers @ 3.23pm

      You asked sensible dave: “what right has Westminster to change the terms of the Union and make England the country in charge?”

      I fear Robert, Westminster assumed that right because, up until very recently, the Scottish MPs we sent to Westminster, and not just the much-derided “lobby fodder” known as “Low Flying Jimmies” allowed Westminster to assume that right.

      As I understand it, Wee Eck is considered one of the foremost experts on ‘Erskine May’, the “bible” of how things work in Westminster. Maybe Eck should sit down with the best Scottish constitutional lawyers and try to find some way whereby, Brexit could be seen as a very good reason to tear-up the Act of Union and restore Scottish independence.

      Where there is a will, there is a way. Playing th Establishment at its own game hasn’t worked, so, let’s try some other tactics.

    292. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      I am with you on this, it gives an opportunity for making a rational answer to the irrational, and making the case. And also used properly to highlight the insults so many unionist trolls use to try to provoke the unwary into being as bad as them. I, of course, am perfect at handling this.

      *cough* sometimes …

      heed’s got a good style for them, for instance.

    293. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 3.01
      Aye Robert, I can see what you are saying,to use the posts that someone has made to get a more accurate point across is a tactic to be sure.
      I have seen you do it many times.
      Also to scroll past someone you don’t want to engage with for whatever reason is probably the best way of ensuring that everybody can have a say.
      But there is a bit of a tipping point.

      While you and the others get to make their points…So does the person who is trying to disrupt or engineer the direction of the conversation… Usually repeatedly.

      As for keeping them busy…Well we are no a job creation scheme for the State,and there are no many other blogs as important as this one,to try to control the narritive on.
      Well in my opinion anyway.
      Why take the chance that someone if they are indeed an agent of the state would get to put disrupting Wings on their CV.

      But mainly the problem (for me anyway) is not scrolling by senseable Dave,it is how much I am scrolling past the replies to him,and not just the irritation factor, which is high espically at this time of year when everyone is busy.
      But it’s scrolling past people who when I see their name I usually want to read what they have to say.
      Because he has only a circular predictable argument,the replies to him also become circular and predictable aswell.
      That’s what IMHO spoils the thread.
      You needn’t accept my reasoning (ofcourse you needn’t) I am not trying to tell you or anyone else what do.
      But I thought it would be useful to explain why myself and I think others are …Well moaning.
      If you were to go back and look at how much of yesterday’s comments you would need to scroll past just to stay out of his ramblings you might see why it was better to go to other sites till he had gone.
      And also why others are asking that nobody answers him.

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      Here’s another interesting one from the BBC Charter:

      “the Foreign Secretary” means Our Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs;


      There is only one foreign secretary, the inimitable Boris Johnson. But in terms of the coverage of the BBC, there are 4 governments or assemblies, yet the BBC says “Our”, without saying “the UK Government”.

      Yet again the charter shows the institutional bias of the BBC in its very use of language, and this is very much reflected in its news and political affairs coverage.

    295. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Yes, the arguments usually are circular, and perhaps the best way to reply to it is just “See my reply at 12.44” or whatever time. In my Grun days I just used to post a link to my previous comment with the one-word posting “Loop”. I must start using that tactic again 🙂

    296. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, going out soon drinking with son so no more posting, but one even far worse from the BBC Charter:

      “the Secretary of State” means Our Principal Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport;

      Culture, Media and Sport is FULLY DEVOLVED to Scotland, our Secretary for that is Fiona Hyslop.

      That’s ridiculous, why wasn’t that picked up and totally squashed?

    297. Macart says:


      Hi dads, sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. Been out of town visiting rellies for the past day or so.

      Yeah, they are queuing up a bit aren’t they? As I’ve said many times though, they’re over committed to the narrative they created. They could no more reverse on that narrative than they could bite off their own fingers.

      Smarter politicians such as Chisolm and McLeish kept to the fence seeing the route of travel. The current crop calling the shots as party leadership couldn’t tie their own shoelaces without supervision. They hitched their wagon to their respective UK parties and THAT is where they take their cue from. For them, never mind what they said or what they campaigned for in June, Bexit is Brexit and Scotland will simply have to sit down, shut up and make the best of blah de blah.

      Branch office parties, with branch office management and a branch office mentality. Especially in the case of Ruth the mooth. I suspect that buffalo gal has her eyes set on parts southward and indeed always has had.(shrugs)

      They are what they always have been dads. Eyes on the prize though, its not them we’re interested in bringing on board. 😉

    298. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 23 December, 2016 at 3:16 pm:

      ” … I also appreciate that some folk will be put off visiting Wings when things get sidetracked by a troll.”

      The thing is, sassenach, that I do not think for a minute that sensibledave is actually a Troll.

      A Troll only attempts to disrupt a site but SD goes far further than any real Troll would even attempt. The Troll is in it for what they see as a bit of fun at other peoples expense. They thus do not do extensive research.

      These people who have been coming here are all quite similar and all have a definite agenda. I poster up-thread, a cite for the so called, “British Army”, 77th Brigade. This was set up by Westminster to ostensibly fight against foreign on-line activity on such as facebook, Twitter and YouTube.

      The stated object of these people is to redirect the topics that are damaging to Westminster and direct them to topics that are Westminster friendly.

      You may note that sensibledave has, in the past couple of days, attempted several times to shut down certain topics and redirect them by accusing Wingers of being anti-English.

      Now make no mistake about it the present Westminster Government most certainly has deliberately set itself up to actually be the Parliament of the Country of England.

      Yet the Treaty of Union that formed the United Kingdom did exactly what legally?. It formed a single kingdom from the only two existing British Kingdom in 1706/7.

      That unified kingdom was neither the Kingdom of Scotland nor was it the Kingdom of England. It was a United Kingdom of two equally sovereign kingdoms. That is, neither former kingdom had sovereign powers over the other.

      A union of equals. It certainly contained four countries but was NOT a union of countries and neither was the Union a single country.

      If it had been a single country then neither Scotland, England, Wales or Ireland would still exist.

      Furthermore it could not be called Britain for there are parts of Britain not under United Kingdom control. It could not be, as it was first titled, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, because that word, “great”, simply means the biggest island of the British Isles and that excluded Ireland but Ireland, in 1706/7 was part of the Kingdom of England and should have been mentioned in the title.

      So just how did Westminster get to be the exclusive Parliament of the Country of England that now uses EVEL to stop Scots, Welsh and N.Irish Members voting on and Westminster matter that Westminster wants to keep them out of?

      How come that a full and legally equal kingdom of Scotland is now being openly treated as if it were no longer an equal partner kingdom but just another one of the Country of England’s slave, or servant, countries?

      Now pay attention to sensibledave’s input on this blog and you will see it is well researched propaganda for Westminster rule. A Troll would not go to such lengths.

      I would think that dave is not doing his own research but is just one more of the other Westminster goons sent here to demoralise the Wingers and working from shared Westminster teachings.

      I don’t know about anyone else but he has exactly the opposite effect upon me and none of his tripe is able to prove anything like being true.

      I maybe cannot counter all the Westminster bullshit but by God I can answer most of it and if a cannot I know a lady FM who can.

    299. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 12.22

      I have the advantage of you Robert. I know who I am and you don’t! I have told you all of the things I am not, but you do not believe me so there is nothing further I can say.

      To demonstrate how confused and wrong you are, go back to the debates about the insured – and reference one comment by me where, as your foggy mind alleges, I fought with wingers to try and convince them to vote No. I can save you a lot of time. I never did.

      Your confusion is based around one simple misconception. You assume everyone that didn’t vote SNP is a “Unionist”. Wrong!

      You quite happily blather on with your history lessons – but have you ever noticed that no one ever writes something like “hmm that was interesting Robert, share some more”? However that pedantry is never applied to your reading comprehesion. You decide what I have written before you have read it, then, because of your partisanship, you misunderstand most points I make.

      But I am a patient man. I will take the trouble to pick back every now and again to help educate and inform.

      Notwithstanding all of the above, did you note the comment above about how popular this blog had become in the last wee while ….. since I have been back? Coincidence?

      Merry Christmas to all Wingers and very Happy New Year.

    300. Sensibledave says:

      … not “insured”. Indyref!

      Bloody spell checkers!

    301. Fireproofjim says:

      Liz g @4.18
      Well said.
      Sums up my frustration in seeing a huge section of the current thread occupied by a totally tedious circular discussion instigated and maintained by someone who is succeeding in monopolising the conversation and not to our advantage.
      He is the pub bore of this site.

    302. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links now showing over on O/T. 😀

    303. heedtracker says:

      Sensibledave says:
      23 December, 2016 at 4:57 pm
      … not “insured”. Indyref!

      Bloody spell checkers!

      What an idiot you are sensible:D

    304. Proud Cybernat says:

      So Media is fully devolved. Mainstream Media (MSM). Surely the ‘Media’ includes the BBC in Scotland? Yes? Then why can’t Holyrood pull them over the hot coals for their blatant misrepresenation of *news* stories?

      Oh, let me guess – BBC is a ‘reserved power’.

    305. Robert Kerr says:

      SD says

      “Notwithstanding all of the above, did you note the comment above about how popular this blog had become in the last wee while ….. since I have been back? Coincidence?”

      No coincidence at all. SD is back BECAUSE this blog is popular.

      He is doing his job! Poor deluded bar steward

    306. Thepnr says:

      We find ourselves in an unprecedented position. It is not of our making. It threatens our economy and our society and is incompatible with the kind of country we are now and want to be in future.

      The situation we find ourselves in should transcend party politics and demands creative leadership on behalf of the Scottish people to protect our national interests. We are taking that step and demonstrating that leadership. We look to the UK Government to match these efforts and to work with us to move forward.

      So says the final paragraph in the SG’s argument for remaining in the EU. “Scotland’s Place in Europe”.

      The thing is as most here I think also believe the UK government will not match these efforts of move forward with a sensible policy for dealing with the UK’s exit from the EU.

      We are on our own here with this so it is for us to take it into our own hands and ensure Scotland’s future prosperity. That means we must remain part of the EU and we can only do that by gaining our Independence.

      We can’t let down ourselves, the poor, sick, old and those yet to be born. We can only do that by fighting for a Yes vote.

      That time might not be too far off, so we don’t let up. They won’t.

    307. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 4.28
      As I said to Robert, I am not trying to tell others what to do, everyone will have their own opinions.

      I was just explaining how I saw the conversation yesterday,and it looked like it was going to go the same way today,so I thought I would say something.

      I don’t think anyone trying to Troll this site is under any illusion that they will win any arguments or convert anyone to a no.
      The best that they can hope for is to put people off reading it.
      So when even I got fed up, I thought I should say something,turns out some others had too.

      You, Robert and the others are more than fit for these people and of course they should be challenged,they can’t just throw out provocations and we let it stand.

      But as I said there is a bit of a tipping point.
      I don’t know where the line is any more than anyone else, I can only say how I am seeing it an hope for the best.

      Truth be told I was a bit mad at myself for giving up on Wings yesterday.
      So I was not going to just go today..Well not with out trying to see if I could convince people that toxic Dave was harming the site.

      Although once people start sayin something it usually sorts itself out.
      I felt that my tuppence worth might help.
      But I think I have said enough about it otherwise I am in danger of doing the very thing that I am complaining about.
      Sooo… I am dropping the subject now, please don’t think I am being rude if I don’t reply.

    308. heedtracker says:

      Two big bankster stories, because yoon rage does like to go UKOK apeshit at your average YES vote, and how can Scotland possibly deal with another RBS…

      “Indeed British banks as a whole look pretty solid by world standards. If you take a real measure of pressure on banks – whether borrowers are paying interest on their loans – as opposed to the hypothetical one of a stress test, we come out near the top of the pack.”

    309. Socrates MacSporran says:

      It pains me to have to do this, but, I must take issue with Robert Peffers in his views on EVEL.

      EVEL does not prevent Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh MPs from voting on “English only” matters. The non-English constituency MPs are only barred from voting at the committee stage.

      The final bill still has to go before a full sitting of the House, at which point, the non-English MPs can vote.

      Non-English MPs can attend the “English-only” committee sittings, they can have their say then, but, they cannot vote then.

      Now, if the House of Commons was in any way a truly-reflective House for the whole of the UK, this might not matter. The point is, such is the built-in English majority, and, at present, the built-in Tory majority, it will make no difference what the non-English MPs say, the tory Party in this “democratic parliamentary dictatorship” will win the day.

      Furthermore, the manner in which EVEL was gerrymandered through the House makes it appear even-more unconstitutional than it might appear.

      EVEL is yet further proof that WEstminster badly needs reformation. Will it happen – well, perhaps after Scotland leaves.

    310. heedtracker says:

      Graun thing on Labour end of era. Only interesting because it reads like S_______d, is now an independent country, who’s name shall never pass the lips of any and every rancid the Graun hack, ever.

    311. Thepnr says:

      It’s long and a bit boring but there are a few gems in there. You should read it if you have the time.

      “Scotland’s Place in Europe”.

    312. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Excellent analysis.

      In addition posters such as SD attempt to sow division if they can, note how yesterday he posted that nobody was rushing in to “defend” my point of view (they were, but by tacking the rubbish, not supporting me).

      Another tool is “hey, I’m one of you, I can mistype and make mistakes too”. Ingratiation in other words. There’s another poster does that at times – and then pursues the agenda.

      All good stuff, it helps us arm ourselves for the Great Outdoors. So thanks to the likes of SD, your “help” is appreciated. You too will have a footnote in the history of Independent Scotland, albeit a comical relief one.

    313. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      No worries Liz, surely one of the strengths of Wings is the different range of views, but we have Independence in common. The different views help others to, hopefully, identify with us and our desire for Independence.

    314. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see Dave still will not accept the moral bankruptcy of British nationalism.

      Away and read some Hegel and learn about slavery, ye dobber.

    315. Liz g says:

      Socrates McSporran @ 5.17
      You are absolutely correct about how EVEL actually works.

      Thing is though,it is and was presented to the English electorate as preventing the Scot’s MPs from having a say.
      So if that’s how they want it to be looked on..Well.. I can live with it.
      Mainly because they either look like they are preventing the Scot’s MPs voting or they come clean and be shown as the liar’s they are.

      But strictly speaking no matter how it actually works they have still implemented a rule in Parliament to prevent our MPs being as fully involved as all the others.
      They did this without the consent of our MPs so we are perfectly entitled to take the view that Westminster has acted to identify which issues that our MPs should be excluded from.
      This also begs the question how much farther will they go.
      Them being all Sovereign and everything.

    316. Robert Peffers says:

      @David says: 23 December, 2016 at 3:55 pm:

      “A very revealing article was posted today on the BBC website. Jawdropping stuff for me, I was shocked by it and feel the need to share it.”

      Very well spotted, David. What else, though, would you expect from a BBC person?

      The very title, “BBC”, The British Broadcasting Corporation.

      It never has been the Broadcaster of all Britain because Britain has only ever been a geographic description.

      There are parts of Britain not governed by Westminster.

      These people are indoctrinated to believe that the United Kingdom is all Britain and that all Britain is also England.

      It is, though, far from mindless arrogance. It is taught to them in their schools and what is worse it is taught in our own Scottish Schools.

    317. @Robert Peffers

      just like to say a big `thank you` for all your interesting and informative posts,

      Scotland has an ancient fascinating history,much of it deliberately not taught in our schools ,much of it destroyed by Edward 1 and Cromwell and misinformed by BBC house jocks like Oliver,

      Scotland also has a fascinating future, once we have dumped Westminster and our own snivelling cringers like Oliver.

    318. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 5.35
      Oh Cameron …You are a tonic…Nailed it in one

    319. Ron Maclean says:

      Hmm that was interesting Robert, share some more.

      @Sensible – that name tells us all we need to know – Dave, at any time.
      Have you noticed that no-one ever writes something like “hmm that was interesting Dave, share some more”?

      Perhaps that’s because your arguments are too similar to those made by some of the boys at the end of the bar late on Friday 24June.

    320. heedtracker says:

      Yoon news from Aberdeen. Socialist worker/millionaire landlord Wullie Young, SLab, says, Aberdeen must show tolerance towards to Alex Salmond MP.

      That “tolerate” Salmond is a beut frae Wullie too, considering he banned First Minister Alex Salmond from all and any Aberdeen council property 2014. Such is the levels of yoon bullshit we all have to listen to these days, sensibledave.

    321. Breeks says:

      I think we’re all giving Dave more credit than he merits.

      He just wants to niggle and agitate frustration so he gets told to feck off, then has some juicy language to prove how vile and abusive we cybernats can be when you scratch the surface, and thus he finally has some muck to throw at Wings.

      He’s here to make a nuisance of himself, and that’s about the size of it.

    322. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t think you have to go past their Public Purposes to appreciate the BBC fails to deliver and is institutionally bias against Scots accessing their inalienable Right to Development, which requires the British state to assist Scotland become independent.

      6. The Public Purposes

      (4)To reflect, represent and serve the diverse communities of all of the United Kingdom’s nations and regions and, in doing so, support the creative economy across the United Kingdom: the BBC should reflect the diversity of the United Kingdom both in its output and services. In doing so, the BBC should accurately and authentically represent and portray the lives of the people of the United Kingdom today, and raise awareness of the different cultures and alternative viewpoints that make up its society. It should ensure that it provides output and services that meet the needs of the United Kingdom’s nations, regions and communities. The BBC should bring people together for shared experiences and help contribute to the social cohesion and well being of the United Kingdom. In commissioning and delivering output the BBC should invest in the creative economies of each of the nations and contribute to their development.

    323. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      Glad to be of service. 🙂

    324. CameronB Brodie says:

      The BBC should bring people together for shared experiences and help contribute to the social cohesion and well being of the United Kingdom. In commissioning and delivering output the BBC should invest in the creative economies of each of the nations and contribute to their development.

      Remember that the homogenisation of British culture is the key Yoon weapon of ‘regional’ cultural ‘assimilation’. Also, contemporary British nationalism is shaped by an expansionist form of English nationalism.

    325. heedtracker says:

      How frightfully tory.

      A wealthy Tory hotel owner used her seat in the Scottish Parliament yesterday to complain about rates rises for hotels.

      The SNP claim Tory MSPs have now asked 24 questions related to their personal business interests in just eight months.”

      Talk about your single issue candidate:D

    326. Liz g says:

      David @ 3.55
      Jaw dropping read right enough, thanks for that.

      I found the worse bit was saying that the guy who didn’t like that there were 2 isles of polish food in his local shop wasn’t mad about it cause he is racist or zenaphobic…Oh no.. Only because he wasn’t consulted….EH!!

      I don’t even know where to start with that.
      I mean if he had been consulted…Then what???

      But even so surely the non racist…. actually the normal thing to do …Is to wander in to the isles and see if you can find something new and interesting to get for yer dinner?

    327. bugsbunny says:

      Just seen Gordon and Sarah Brown handing out food, clothes and toy parcels in Kirkcaldy. He quotes, “Six years ago, it was people out of work, today it’s those in work”. Thanks to liars like him. I hope for their sakes, if any of them voted NO last time, they might think where their priorities arer and vote YES next time.

    328. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 23 December, 2016 at 5:41 pm

      “just like to say a big `thank you` for all your interesting and informative posts”

      No thanks necessary, Scot. I worry that I’m being boring and going on too much.

      Believe me, though, that it is much easier to get to the real history these days with the internet. Way back, after I left school, it needed a lot of effort to get the real information.

      I used to spend my Saturday mornings trailing round the Old Town in Edinburgh’s many second hand book shops and the many old junk shops looking for old books.

      Then it was off to either Easter Road or Tynecastle to catch whichever Edinburgh club was at home that week.

      Mind you, if I was skint, there was always Edinburgh City or Leith Athletic to watch and they were within easy walking distance of home.

      “Scotland has an ancient fascinating history, much of it deliberately not taught in our schools”.

      Scotland is an older established European country than England. The earliest Education Act since Ancient Greece was in Scotland:- Education Act, 13 June 1496.

      Here it is in old Scots Lallans :-

      Item, it is statute and ordanit throw all the realme that all barronis and frehaldaris that ar of substance put thair eldest sonnis and airis to the sculis fra thai be aucht or nyne yeiris of age, and till remane at the grammer sculis quhill thai be competentlie foundit and have perfite Latyne, and thaireftir to remane thre yeris at the sculis of art and jure, sua that thai may have knawlege and understanding of the lawis, throw the quhilkis justice may reigne universalie throw all the realme, sua that thai that ar schireffis or jugeis ordinaris under the kingis hienes may have knawlege to do justice, that the pure pepill sulde have na need to seik oure soverane lordis principale auditouris for ilk small injure. And quhat baroune or frehaldar of substance that haldis nocht his sone at the sculis, as said is, haifand na lauchful essonze bot failyeis heirin, fra knawlege may be gotten thairof, he sall pay to the king the soume of xx l.

      Here is the English Translation:-

      “Item, it is decreed and ordained throughout the realm that all barons and freeholders who are wealthy put their eldest sons and heirs into school from the time they are eight or nine years old, and to remain at the grammar schools until they are competently instructed and have perfect Latin, and thereafter to remain three years at the schools of art and law, so that they may have knowledge and understanding of the laws, through which justice may reign universally throughout the realm, so that those who are sheriffs or judges ordinary under the king’s highness will have the knowledge to do justice [and] that the poor people should have no need to seek our sovereign lord’s principal auditors for each small injury. And any baron or freeholder of wealth whosoever who does not keep his son at school, as is said, with no lawful excuse but fails herein, from the information that can be had of it, he shall pay the king the sum of £20.

      (Translation taken from Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707,

      and the Great Voltaire said, “It is to Scotland we look for our ideas of civilisation”, when Scotland was leading Europe into the European Enlightenment.

      Here is quote from Wiki :-

      In France, Voltaire said “we look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilization.” The focus of the Scottish Enlightenment ranged from intellectual and economic matters to the specifically scientific as in the work of William Cullen, physician and chemist; James Anderson, an agronomist; Joseph Black, physicist and chemist; and James Hutton, the first modern geologist.

      It makes you wonder where Scotland would be now in World rankings it we had managed to steer clear of the Westminster wasters.

    329. Maria F says:

      sensibledave says:
      23 December, 2016 at 11:44 am

      “You (Robert Peffers 11.05) wrote: “It is certainly the Government of the country of England now. That job was made clear with the introduction of EVEL.””

      Actually sensibledave, I personally think that Westminster emerged without any shadow of a doubt as the abusive government of the country of England treating Scotland like a colony that black day when the English MPs and some unionist suckers from Scotland abused their positions of power to transfer (steal?) 6000 sq miles of Scottish sea waters and give them to England.

      I am sorry but that despicable move alone made it crystal clear what Westminster is there for and more importantly, what Lib Dems and Labour are for and whose interests they represent: the Kingdom of England.

      I do really wonder if that taking over by England of the Scottish waters was in complete breach of the Act of Union, because that was done to benefit England at the expense of Scotland. I have read the act of Union and while I see something about sharing, I certainly did not read anywhere that the Act of Union granted the power to one of the Kingdoms to steal assets from the other. Have you?

      So, what do you have to say about that? Do you think that should Scotland recover its independence and the people of Scotland takes back the overdue power to control their country’s own affairs, the 6000 sq miles will be taken back by their rightful owner too?

      “I spent hours repeating the fact that EVEL laws could only be brought in with the passing of the law via full the parliament.”

      You mean the parliament of Westminster (aka England), because I do not remember at any point that the Scottish parliament was consulted about this nor the constituents represented by the MPs that are being left out of the discussions because of EVEL

      “I had to repeat umpteen times that Scottish MPs (along with everyone else) would have to vote for a new EVEL law to be passed”

      I am sorry, repeat umpteen times to the ears attached to whose head exactly? Ruth Davidson’s? Kezia Dugdale’s? Willie Rennie’s? Well, that doesn’t surprise me. You know well sensibledave that sound waves cannot propagate without matter

      I firmly believe sensibledave, as Robert mentioned above, that EVEL is in breach of the Act of Union. Westminster was established from the Act of Union as the PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM, not the parliament of England. England should have had its own parliament at the same time as Scotland, NI and Wales got theirs. It beggars the question as to why It did not. What do you think sensibledave?

      My personal opinion:

      1. Because if the people of England was allowed to select their MEP on the basis as PR as the rest of the devolved parliaments are, that mirage of a choice that is represented by the ‘duality’ Blue Tory/Red Tory that is being kept on life support by FPTP would vanish in a heartbeat and with it the power that the current establishment holds over England and through it, on the UK. This is the way how the establishment manages to keep at bay what the consider irritant ‘minority parties’.

      2. Because should England have its own Parliament and be also given a proper budget as the rest of the devolved areas are, then it would become extraordinarily obvious to everybody which one is the kingdom that is keeping the other one afloat.

      “Now a year or so has passed, and what? How has EVel affected anyone other than the potential rights of the ENglish on English only matters”

      Absolute bollocks, Sensible Dave. Who do you think you are going to fool with this nonsense here?

      Google search ‘Barnett formula’ and this is what you get:

      “The Barnett formula is a mechanism used by the Treasury in the United Kingdom TO AUTOMATICALLY ADJUST THE AMOUNTS OF PUBLIC EXPENDITURE ALLOCATED TO NORTHERN IRELAND, SCOTLAND AND WALES TO REFLECT CHANGES IN SPENDING LEVELS ALLOCATED TO PUBLIC SERVICES IN ENGLAND, England and Wales or Great Britain, as appropriate” (first entry searching Google for “Barnett formula”)

      And there we have it, it is the public expenditure of England what will dictate the one of Scotland. So both are linked. But you knew that already, didn’t you? Well, we did too.

      What the Tories were clearly aiming with EVEL is nothing more than perpetuating the concept that SCotland, WAles and NI are simply colonies that have no say in economic matters because what EVEL does is to ensure that the MPs (and incidentally the constituents that they legally represent) from out of England are not allowed to intervene in many areas that as a domino effect will be affecting their countries. That is not dictated in the Act of Union either Sensibledave.

      “You will also recall that Ms Sturgeon whipped the SNP MPs to vote on the matter of foxhunting in ENgland – even though she had expressedly promised, before ther election, that she would not”

      I am sorry Dave, but that doesn’t even compare with the monumental porkies told by Tories, LibDems and Labour during the indiref campaign:

      We are a union of equals, they said. Well, are we?

      We were promised devo max to the max, ‘as close as federation as you could be with a partner that has the 85% of the population”. We were going to become the most devolved country in the world (words of Cameron the liar). So where on earth is our devo max SensibleDave?

      Actually, remember this?

      “Brown sought to bolster that offensive by insisting that his party’s plans to increase the tax powers and legal status of the Scottish parliament were “locked-in by a triple guarantee”” (Taken from the guardian, 15 September 2014)

      From the same article:

      “In a further push by the no campaign, all three UK leaders – Cameron, Miliband and Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader – signed a front page pledge in the Daily Record newspaper entitled “the vow”. IT PROMISED THEY WOULD GIVE THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT A LEGAL GUARANTEE OF ITS INDEPENDENCE FROM WESTMINSTER”

      Now, haven’t we learned a couple of weeks ago from the biggest legal brains working on behalf of the government during its appeal to the Supreme Court that our devolution, actually matters not an iota as the UK government (yes, that one that was rejected by an 85% of the Scottish electorate) can take the powers back whenever it wants?

      So, where is the triple guarantee? Wasn’t that a porky and a half from the three unionist stooges?

      “Those days are gone now and EVEL has proven to be a complete non-issue – just I said it would be”

      Even bigger Bollox Sensibledave and the best of it? you know it! NHSTerminator Hunt and the red and blue Tories have not dismantled the NHS just yet: just give them time. Brexit makes it ripe for the final killing of the NHS so all the fatcat vultures in the shape of private health care can get their feast.

      By the way, sensibledave, remind us how many MPs and Lords have links to private healthcare firms and therefore are currently profiting of the privatisation of the NHS?

      And another question for you:

      Considering that the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland are in a union of equals, why is it that we only get an 8.2 % of the share of the profits of the oil? Shouldn’t we be getting 50% each? Again, the Act of Union talks about sharing resources, but it doesn’t say a thing (at least that I could read) about England taking most of it every time: that is not sharing that is taking advantage, don’t you agree? I mean, it is not Scotland’s fault that the Kingdom of England has not been able to control its population down, so why on earth should be paying the price for it?

    330. Brian Powell says:


      Unfortunately they would be too hungry just to tell him to just fuck off.

    331. Brian Powell says:


      Hs charity collected £900,000 but only £300,000 went to recipients, the rest went on expenses.

    332. Dorothy Devine says:

      Just in case I am working my wee fingers to the bone tomorrow and have no time for reading or writing ,may I say a big thank you to the Rev Stu and all the wingers below the line who have informed and /or amused over the past year.

      May you all enjoy the pleasures of the season and have a happy , healthy 2017 particularly all those struggling against major health difficulties.

      Like the man says , Peace always and a big hug to Ronnie!

    333. Robert Peffers says:

      After reading the later comments on this thread – does anyone now doubt that replying to sensibledave is concentrating minds on the actuality of what the so called United Kingdom has long been seen as?

      Mind you it is only in comparatively recent years that Scots have realised just how much of a rip off Westminster was doing. Some of us old hands have been trying to get that across for decades.

      We knew many of the facts but no one paid us much heed and there was no way to disseminate the information until the more general growth in social media.

      Just by chance I came across a very old News Group debate on what was then, and probably still is, a Scots politics newsgroup. It was almost exactly the same arguments then as on this blog today.

      I was quoting the same sources for early Scottish education leadership then too. Thing was the audience who read it was tiny. Now a post on Twitter can go viral in an instant and, try as they may, Westminster has lost control of the medium of news coverage. About time too.

    334. heedtracker says:

      Hs charity collected £900,000 but only £300,000 went to recipients, the rest went on expenses.

      It’s less his greed. He’s one of the main architects of the Iraq wars. He should be in jail for war crimes against humanity. Try to imagine the horrific deaths so many suffered in the middle east and for what? A few war crazed politicos like Gordon Brown. Who would want his conscience, if he even has one. The slow death of SLabour is probably the least of this living horror’s legacies.

    335. geeo says:

      Completely off topic, but how good was it to see a non fatal nor even physical injury, ending to the libyan plane hijacking in Malta earlier.

      Well done to all involved in getting a good resolution, if good is the right word for it.

    336. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker @ 8.02
      Have you any notion of where and how they raised £900.000.
      Askin fur a friend?

    337. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert Peffers
      Pedant alert! The Enlightenment wasn’t simply a northern European event. That’s the picture presented by the European colonialist, who didn’t want it known that a comparable reassessment of normative values was taking place in very different societies all over the world. That would have made colonialism harder to justify back home, especially to the ‘working-class’, who were just being to ‘organise’ themselves. The colonised were generally perceived as needing civilised, not as Enlightened human beings in their own right.

      This is the attitude at the heart of British nationalism and it will never change.

    338. oldrottenhead says:

      i know i’m going a bit off topic. but West dunbartonshire council just announced they had a budget cut of £6.3M (they must have known you where having a few days off), i have a sneaky feeling they are not comparing like with like,uno funding for education going directly to schools et al. but i can’t challenge them cos i cannea find any facts.

      huv a merry crimbo but get back soon we need you.

    339. Sinky says:

      oldrottenhead says at 9.55

      SNP need to get a proper response to these now regular claims from various labour councils otherwise they will be hammered at May’s elections.

      Why are our councillors silent?

    340. shiregirl says:

      listening to Roxette by Dr Feelgood and I don’t give an f anymore. All so pissing annoying.

      Hope everyone has a good Christmas, whatever it means to them.


    341. Gary45% says:

      Crashes expenses? policing security at North Queensferry,
      just saying like.
      Then again I thought the Tax payer were forever indebted to the former “glorious leader!!!??”
      You could tell when he was at home, the road from Inverkeithing up to North Queensferry, armed plod everywhere when he was a bigger twat, now he is just a twunt.

    342. I’m trying to imgine any newspaper article generating as much below the line, interesting and informative discussion as this excellent Christmas cracker from Stu.
      No, can’t think of one.
      Have a great Christmas, everyone.

    343. Bill McLean says:

      Maria F. at 6.49pm – Brilliant, simply brilliant!

    344. Terry says:

      I suspect sensible Dave is actually a woman – – writing style etc. It also gives a person like that a thrill to deceive over such a matter. Definitely tries to derail this site but mr peffers is correct in his approach. I ignore SD. And nearly all the replies to him except from Robert peffers as there’s always some extra learning in there.

      So I tend to just leave the likes of SD to RP and learn from other contributors and organising and learning for the next indyref.

    345. shiregirl says:

      oh god. Oh yes. Abba Special on BBC4 to help me forget politics tonight.


    346. galamcennalath says:

      It’s official. May has no Brexit plans formulated yet.

      Telegraph … Theresa May has ‘greatest respect’ for the Queen and will share her Brexit plans when they are decided

      IMO The reality is … when the EU tell her what is on offer!

    347. Sinky says:

      Latest news on the most recent fine for Barclays Bank
      should let us remind Yoons that despite BBC / MSM propaganda the largest bail out of any UK Bank was not RBS but Barclays Bank.
      The public was repeatedly informed by the media during the crash that “Barclays didn’t need a taxpayer bail out at all”. In fact, this proved quite the opposite. Barclays Bank – yes, that English based bank – received the single biggest bail out of any UK bank, but most of it didn’t come from the UK taxpayer.
      Barclays was bailed out to the tune of £552.32bn (at backdated exchange rates) by the US Federal Reserve and £6bn by the Qatari Government. Or to put it another way, foreign governments bailed out Barclays to the tune of more than twelve times more money than the UK Government’s capital support for RBS (£45bn).
      The Federal Reserve has released details of more than 21,000 transactions after being forced by the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act to disclose which institutions it had bailed out in the financial turmoil since December 2007.
      The data reveals that British-based banks accounted for $1 trillion (£640bn) of the money the Fed issued to prop up the financial sector.Barclays took the biggest chunk of bailout money, borrowing $863bn from the Fed. Almost half of the money came in overnight loans thought the Primary Dealer Credit Facility, a programme intended to help banks dealing in US Treasuries.

    348. Ealasaid says:

      Maria F @ 6:49 Fantastic post!

    349. Ian Brotherhood says:

      What a great thread this is.

      Soo-perb commentary/opinion, loads of links to all-sorts, and it all goes on while pests are hovering about the place like annoying midges. But they’re no more than ‘annoying’, and that’s why this place is a graveyard for trolls, be they professional or amateur.

      The billboards will be up early in the New Year, and we have a solid date for the next PQ demo. Proud Cybernat needs to take a bow, whether he likes it or not, as does Ronnie A and all other ‘Wingers’ who are busy doing stuff.

      We’re not ‘hoping’ for a good 2017 – we’re making sure of it.


    350. heedtracker says:

      Liz g says:
      23 December, 2016 at 8:58 pm
      Heedtracker @ 8.02
      Have you any notion of where and how they raised £900.000.
      Askin fur a friend?

      No idea Liz. Ex PM ship in the UK is a licence to print money though. All of which makes a mockery of their, the UK PM earns less than a lollipop lady bullshit. Its not like this is in our neighbouring countries and that’s probably not a coincidence either.

      Is anyone doing a suicide watch on the actual author of Wings over Scotland? His twitter account says he’s trying to get through Love Actually:D

    351. Still Positive. says:

      Although I applaud the PQ demonstration they have chosen Mothers’ Day which, I fear, will reduce the numbers considerably.

    352. Terry says:

      @ian brotherhood.

      Loved your post just now and can’t wait to see the billboards going up. I’ve spotted some of the stickers on lamp posts. Great.

    353. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood

      Im not solely on my own Ian I have finally got Moira Williams to get the ball rolling on BBC Bias protests ,so’s all credit to Moira having getting back in the saddle . Jock Scott will be the MC non better to MC any event, Alan Knight ( londons calling ) will be one of the speakers others will be contacted shortly .

      I wont be shy in asking some of our great Winger bloggers .

    354. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      I’ve run out of Misreporting Scotland stickers 🙂

    355. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Still Positive

      Thats no very positive a date had to be chosen so its the 26th March 14.00 to 16.00 , there are no age restrictions so anybody can bring they’re Mother with them & make it a Family day out.

    356. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      I have also ran out of Misreporting stickers 🙁

    357. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @ronnie anderson

      What if you have run out of mothers?

    358. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Conan the Librarian

      Ever heard of Mothercare there’s plenty care homes we can tap intae lol.

      Proud Cybernat Might be a good idea to have another print run of Misreporting Scotland stickers.

    359. scottieDog says:

      Brown makes me sick to my stomach. Brown accelerated the debt bubble started by thatcher and now he’s up and down ‘consulting’ in the city


    360. scottieDog says:

      As Ben Bernanke stated after the crisis, these bailouts were done simply by marking up accounting entries on the fed computer.

      This is why it is of paramount importance for indy Scotland to have a central bank with currency issuing powers.

    361. David says:

      Liz G @ 6:11pm
      Aye imagine that, foreign food on the supermarket shelves, how outrageous!
      Totally different from oh let’s see, true red white & blue British items like fish and chips, or pizza, or doner kebabs, or spaghetti bolognese, or tea, or coffee, or curry, or naan bread, or vodka, or rice, or kiwi fruit, or bananas, or oranges, or chocolate, or…

      True story:
      I was in a supermarket in the USA, and British foods were in the Import section! 🙂
      Guess we are all foreigners, somewhere.


      Robert Peffers @ 5:41pm

      Yes, the ‘Britain’ where the BBC is, is not the ‘Britain’ where we are.
      I think my shock at the article was that while I expect BBC items to have a certain level of inbuilt bias, what I read was completely, utterly, no mistake about it, about a different country to mine.

      Their mask is off.
      Their gloves are off.
      BBC, the state broadcaster, will fight to the bitter end to preserve the ‘British’ state.

    362. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Conan –

      I’ve been hoarding my stash. Happy to send some on if you give me a postal address.

      ianbhood [at] gmail [dot] com

      Hoots tae your good self, and aw Wingers!

    363. defo says:


      QEing the books is easy.

      Getting rid of the ‘debt’ less so. That takes taxes, and ‘austerity’.

    364. Liz g says:

      David @ 12.19
      What I am looking forward to is the broadcasting from the BBC between the Yes vote and Independence day.
      How they are going to handle it will be more than interesting I suspect!
      Will they still think they can collect the licence fee..Well if there’s any Scot’s still payin it by then.

    365. CameronB Brodie says:

      David and Robert

      As someone who thinks the BBC has some of the best journalists in the world keeping tabs on the domestic scene, Mark Easton, BBC News’ home editor, appears remarkably uninformed.

      @Mark Easton
      Presumably you’re including Andrew Neil in this assessment, who was ‘poorly briefed’ in a recent interview. By the way, do you choose to intentionally ignore the denial of Scotland’s “Right to Development” or are you simply ignorant of the international context and view Britain as one nation? Is that why we don’t hear about the suppression of the McCrone Report on the BBC?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty overall their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

    366. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Done and done!

    367. Chic McGregor says:

      Insensible Dave quotes the absolute GDP figures, which to be fair are a much loved mantra by the BMSM.

      He will of course, I hope, be well aware that population, which is pretty much an arbitrary number largely defined by national geography, is something which also has to be taken into consideration when trying to estimate how wealthy the average Joe who lives in each country actually is. AKA GDP per capita.

      Better still is the GDP PPP per capita (purchasing power potential per capita). Which takes into account differences in how the dollar equivalent purchasing power departs from the dollar exchange rate expectation. Put simply, the cost of things in poorer countries tends to be less, in dollar terms, than in richer countries so in terms of purchasing power in that country it is not as bad as simple exchange rate and GDP per capita might indicate.

      Regarding Brexit, the ultimate irony is that England requires EU membership more than any other EU country.

      Although using GDP PPP per capita, it is already quite far down the European league it is still way above where it should be on a resource to population basis or on a manufacturing to population basis or on a balance of trade basis. The ‘buoyancy’ of the financial Services industry is entirely the explanation for that.

      The problem with being so reliant on a financial services sector is that it can and almost certainly will leave sometime soon. Brexit hastens that eventuality but it would have happened anyway.

      [Aside. This is not the equivalent of Scotland’s issue with Oil Price. Oil price is notoriously volatile, not just due to economic cyclical activity but also due to Global political machinations. However, the London based financial sector, once it departs, is never likely to return. And even in the extremely unlikely event that oil never returned to previous values, even if it remained a zero contributor, Scotland’s GDP per capita remains similar to the rUK with the contribution of the London financial sector. And that sector is bound to leave the rUK.]

      Very simply, England is not a viable, stand alone country.

      We in Scotland have to hope they see the error of their ways, that they:

      Adopt Netherlands style agricultural production techniques.

      Adopt German style manufacturing techniques.

      Adopt normal NW Europe levels of on shore wind energy production.

      Or it is all going to end in tears down there with significant knock on effect for us even if we are independent and in the EU by then.

      The best plan for those concerned about levels of immigration in England, would have been to go to the EU and honestly plead a special case along the lines of:

      “Look, we do not even have the agricultural, water, energy, timber resources to service the population we already have.”

      I’m sure they would have listened to that argument, based as it is on facts.

      However expectation, given the historical in bred nature of their ruling elite, is low.

      From their mythological bubble they could never conced such a weakness (in their eyes).

    368. CameronB Brodie says:

      Chic McGregor
      Chic, Britain’s industry has historically been characterised by a lack of investment in plant and skills, as capital has traditionally found better returns elsewhere. IMHO, these are major factors behind Britain’s poor productivity levels and lack of international competitiveness.



      This chapter provides an overview of Britain’s labour productivity performance during the twentieth century, incorporating the catching-up and convergence perspective. By taking account of levels of labour productivity, as well as growth rates, we will see that it is possible to arrive at a more sanguine evaluation of Britain’s twentieth century performance than is common in much of the literature. Until recently, the literature was dominated by a “declinist” perspective, emphasising the slower rate of productivity growth in Britain compared with other countries (Wiener,1981; Kirby, 1981, Dintenfass, 1982; Pollard, 1984; Elbaum and Lazonick, 1986; Barnett, 1986; Alford, 1988). However, following important papers by Abramovitz (1986) and Baumol (1986) on the convergence of productivity and living standards, a more balanced view has become possible….

      However, there is a danger of taking the revisionism of the convergence framework too far and taking too optimistic a view of Britain’s twentieth century productivity performance (Booth, 2001; Rubinstein, 1993). Crafts and Toniolo (1996) continue to see British performance as disappointing, even allowing for differences in catch-up potential, since Britain was not just caught-up by many countries, but also fell behind. Furthermore, Britain has been slow to close the productivity gap that has opened up with North America and much of Western Europe (Broadberry andO’Mahony, 2004).

      I don’t see this changing, as these 2014 figures were the worst recorded in 20 years.

      Output per hour in the UK was 18 percentage points below the average for the rest of the major G7 advanced economies in 2014, the widest productivity gap since comparable estimates began in 1991. On an output per worker basis, UK productivity was 19 percentage points below the average for the rest of the G7 in 2014.

    369. Liz g says:

      Chic McGregor @ 2.16
      I have never understood why Westminster let immigration become such an issue.
      It’s either not a real problem,and is manufactured to distract the population.
      If that’s the case then they need to come clean with their people and set things straight.

      I know!!!!But otherwise they will sink espically after we go.

      Or if it is indeed a real problem then as you say they need to admit this to the international community, it’s no Rocket science to point out that this is an island and would struggle if it doesn’t set some limitations on the amount of people that it can support.

      Unfortunately that would take some politicians with a bit of integraty and vision,and they don’t have any of them!
      But no they can’t be honest they would rather push their people to the brink,have them seen as racist by the whole world, and, claim no choice but to implement a dubious vote.

      It’s the same with the oil,they just keep on punting the same old nonsense.
      You can’t base your future economy on oil,it’s running out.
      You are too late to set up an oil fund with what’s left.
      Well the day that Saudi Arabia diversifys to encourage bikni wearing tourists to hire cars, starts to ask around for a recipe for Whisky and wants to be the world leader in solar energy,or makes an attempt to set up a tax base.
      Is the day I might start to think they have a point.
      But I haven’t ever heard of anyone telling Saudi Arabia that they need anyone’s broad shoulders because oil fluctuates.
      Or any of the other major oil producing nation’s for that matter.
      While the list of reasons to leave this Union is a long one,right up there at the top is that we cannot trust one word the Westminster government ever says.

    370. Dek says:

      What is incredible is that it is the same old lies sprinkled over divide and conquer . Read about how they did it in 1820 for example.The lack of humility and self awareness of the Brexiteers would be funny if it was not embarrassing.Come on Scotland let’s escape before the whole rotten structure crashes and burns and takes us with it.

    371. Thepnr says:

      Theresa Mays Christmas message to the Falkland Islands. Warning! this might make you puke.

      An alternative Xmas message from the Artist Taxi Driver.

    372. Sensibledave says:

      Shiregirl 11.02

      I watched Dr Feelgood too. I went to see, and met, Wilko earlier this year. Bloody marvellous!

    373. Sensibledave says:

      Maria F 6.49

      Two things Maria…

      1. English only laws can only be passed following a vote if the UK parliament including all MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. So, in reality, EVEL laws can only be passed in the same way as any other laws.

      2. Given the levels of varying devolution that other nations have in the U.K. I really do not have a problem with it.

      And, when you recall the SNPs actions on the potential vote on fox hunting in ENGLAND, we learned exactly why EVEL has become necessary. That was an issue that demonstrated that some parties will, from time to time, act purely out of political opportunism without reference to anything else – including honesty and integrity (Ms Sturgeon specifically said on TV that the SNP would note vote specifically on that issue).

      She proved she cannot be trusted and went down in my estimation as a result. She moved from being someone I admired for her conviction and determination – to just another politician that lies through her teeth if she thinks it will help her politically. Just like so many others in other parties.

    374. woosie says:

      A lot of time wasted again responding to this waste of sperm. I scroll past known trolls, but then read our responses!

      This one certainly has an almost bbc standard view of anglo-Scots politics through a stained glass window.

      I can’t escape these clowns; maybe I’m obsessing a wee bit. In Tesco this morning, nearly flipped when the wife asked me to get some shampoo and conditioner, her favourite brand being Theresa May! Turned out Tresemme.

    375. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @woosie –


      ‘Theresa May’ shampoo!!

      That’s a keeper.

      They’ll be hoping it doesn’t catch-on – if it does, they’ll go bust within weeks.

    376. Maria F says:


      “English only laws can only be passed following a vote if the UK parliament including all MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. So, in reality, EVEL laws can only be passed in the same way as any other laws”

      With all due respect, sensibledave, I do not give a toss about what you are trying to say because for me EVEL is an aberration and completely against the act of union and therefore it should never be even suggested. Without a properly devolved parliament in England in line with the one in Scotland, Wales and NI, England’s only laws should not exist and should not be discussed in the United Kingdom Parliament. Because, is England currently a devolved country or not? If it is a devolved country, what sort of devolution does it have? Can you assist us on that?

      The unavoidable truth here is that the parliament of Westminster IS the Parliament of the United Kingdom as indicated in the Act of Union and as such, in my opinion, no MP from anywhere in the UK should be asked to leave ‘because they have to discuss England only laws’. EVEL was a massive con from the Tory party and Cameron the coward so they could sneak out the back door avoiding giving England a devolved parliament, with all its consequences.

      The main factor to consider here is that England does not have its own MPs to represent it in devolved matters in the same way that Scotland, NI or Wales have, and I would love to hear your opinion as to why.

      Using for English devolved matters in Westminster the MPs that the people has selected by FPTP to represent them in the Parliament of the United Kingdom to discuss matters concerning THE UNITED KINGDOM is, in my opinion, as wrong and twisted as using our members of the European Parliament to discuss within the European Parliament matters concerning exclusively to the sovereignty of the UK. It is wrong and you know it.

      I am with Robert Pfeffers on this one. The current arrangement of Westminster is a rather dodgy one and puts huge question marks all over the whole thing of devolution and, even more worryingly, the validity of the treaty of union as it stands.

      From where I stand, the current WEstminster arrangement resembles more the Parliament of a sovereign country and its colonies than the PARLIAMENT of a UNION of TWO INDEPENDENT AND EQUALLY SOVEREIGN KINGDOMS (I am not shouting, I do not know how to put this in bold to make it stand out).

      “2. Given the levels of varying devolution that other nations have in the U.K. I really do not have a problem with it”

      A problem with what, exactly? EVEL, the fact that England is using as its own parliament the one that, according to the TReaty of Union should be exclusively the PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM?

      Well, I don’t mean to be rude but I do not give a toss for what you think. I think that both EVEL and the current arrangement of Westminster is wrong and I do have a problem with both. I also have a problem with the fact that England does not have a parliament in line with the one in Scotland because of the implications of it and the potential abuse of the people of Sctotland’s sovereignty

      “And, when you recall the SNPs actions on the potential vote on fox hunting in ENGLAND, we learned exactly why EVEL has become necessary”

      If you consider that the Scottish MPs voting on fox hunting in England is completely unacceptable and they have to be stopped, then or you are a hypocrite of the highest calibre or you have to consider as well that the intervention of ANY ENGLISH MP in matters affecting Scotland directly or indirectly is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. That sensibledave is the end of the union as you know it. You may as well dissolve WEstminster for what it is worth.

      Let’s have a wee look back:

      You mention the intervention of the Scottish MPs in English Fox hunting, but how does that compare in degree of injustice and democratic deficit with the fact that having the Parliament of Scotland – legally representing the people of Scotland – rejected the renewal of Trident and the overwhelming majority of the MPs – again representing the People of Scotland in the Parliament of the United Kingdom – did so too, the MPs from England imposed by force (because you cannot use any other words in this case) over the people of Scotland, from whom they do not have any sort of mandate, the extraordinary costs of such a renewal, the overwhelming risks and the limitations in economic development of the area because Scotland is being forced against its will to house those monstrosities on Scottish soil?

      Again, or you are a hypocrite of the highest order or you must find intolerable that having the people of Scotland rejected by an 85% a Tory government, they are being forced to endure one, and all the negative consequences that their crap policies will bring (case in point is the austerity bogus and Osbornomics and the terminator approach of Hunt to the NHS).

      In fact, if you find so unacceptable that Scottish MPs vote in Fox Hunting in England, you must find an absolute outrage and an assault to democracy that a whole government cabinet of English MPs none of them with a mandate from the people of Scotland have in their hands the future of Scotland and even dare to drag us out of EU against our own will.

      “That was an issue that demonstrated that some parties will, from time to time, act purely out of political opportunism without reference to anything else – including honesty and integrity (Ms Sturgeon specifically said on TV that the SNP would note vote specifically on that issue)”

      I am curious: How would you describe the collusion of the LibDems and Labour with regards to the ‘passing’ of 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters into England’s borders? Do you think that was that just political opportunism or rather corruption of the highest order, and insult to the Treaty of Union and a complete disrespect and disregard for the people of Scotland and its sovereignty?

      “She proved she cannot be trusted and went down in my estimation as a result”

      Some people’s waste is others’ treasure, they say. My estimation for Ms Sturgeon went up enormously when she showed what she was made of and that she was not going to bend and lick the shoes of the establishment as the current SLab, SLibDems and STories do on a day to day basis.

      Actually, reading some of your comments and seeing how much you dislike her makes me appreciate her actions even more. When people like you concerned about Fox Hunting criticise her I know that she is doing something right. So keep on going with your Fox Hunting sensibledave, because you soon will make me think that she is the best politician the UK has ever had and the one that is going to mark the end of Tory rule.

      “She moved from being someone I admired for her conviction and determination – to just another politician that lies through her teeth if she thinks it will help her politically. Just like so many others in other parties”

      Just like so many others in other parties? Why don’t you grow a pair Sensibledave and mention their names and shames here? What are you afraid of? That it is going to be obvious who you are working for or who you are?

      Let me start the list for you:

      1. Ruth Davidson

      a. for madly flip-flopping in her stance of the EU and moving from asking the people of Scotland to vote to remain in the EU to now demand from them to shut up and do as they are told by the people of the kingdom of England.

      b. For not having the interests of the people of Scotland at heart and acting like a toy soldier of the UK tory party
      changing the color of her jacket whenever they ask her to do so.

      c. For have the disrespect of calling her fellow Scots vandals and thieves.

      d. For lying during the indiref campaign and deceiving the people into believing that the best way to ensure that Scotland would remain in the EU was by voting no.

      e. For insulting the intelligence of the people of Scotland who are well aware that they voted as a majority party in Parliament one with a mandate for another independence referendum should the Kingdom of England attempt to drag Scotland out of the EU against its will.

      f. For being prepared to sacrifice her own country and subject her fellow Scots to misery so she can further her career

      Would you like me to continue?

      Talking about political gain, do you think that when the LIbDems and Labour colluded on the despicable act of taking the 6000 sq miles from Scotland to give them to England they were thinking it was going to help them politically?

      And what about Cameron and his casino politics, should we add him to the list? Do you think he thought the EU referendum was going to help him politically? Well, that went down well, didn’t it?

      And what about Gideon and his austerity bogus? Another one bite the dust, eh? On the list too?

      What about IDS and his raids against the disabled that lead so many to end their lives? Repulsive enough for your list?

      And what about BoJo and the ‘taking back control’ of the 350 million weekly for the NHS? Was that porky big enough for your list?

      What about Mundell and his ‘there is not an appetite for another referendum’ porky? In the list?

      Actually, I distinctly note that you sneaked without answering any of my questions put to you in my previous comment. So let me post them again for you just in case you forgot:

      1. Do you think that the stealing of the 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters was against the Treaty of Union?

      2. Do you think that should Scotland recover its independence the 6000 sq miles will be taken back by Scotland?

      3. I am very interested in hearing your opinion about the distribution of wealth and profit from assets within the Kingdoms of the UK. I mean, the Treaty of Union talks about sharing between the two Kingdoms of the Union, but the current arrangement doesn’t really look like sharing. Does it? It is more a take over by the Kingdom of England. Let’s take the oil profits for instance: shouldn’t it be a 50% for each Kingdom? I mean, at the end of the day the asset is in Scottish territory so, a 50% for the Kingdom of England is already generous enough, don’t you think? What about the rest? Doesn’t it look to you that the Kingdom of Scotland is just being given a few crumbs while the Kingdom of England is pocketing the whole loaf?

    377. BIll McLean says:

      Maria F at 3:40PM. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

    378. twathater says:

      Maria F @ 3.40 pm

      VERY Well said Maria and if sd has any sense he will keep out of your cross hairs ,he knows he cannot answer your questions truthfully, breeks loved your last few dissertations ,
      Merry Christmas and a very happy and prosperous New Year to ALL independenistas

    379. Maria F @ 3.40pm.

      Best I have seen for many a while. Quite frankly, comments by S.D were putting me off from visiting this site, so hopefully you have shut him, or her, up, permanently.

      Merry Xmas to all.

    380. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      To concur with everybody who has praised Maria’s comment at 3.40pm yesterday; to pinch from that other place, “Dan Sarf” – Heah Heah!


    381. sensibledave says:

      Maria F 3.40

      Hi Maria

      You write eloquently and with passion and commitment. However, as is so often the case, you make the huge mistake of assuming and believing that everyone that didn’t vote for the SNP is against you or your ideas and is therefore a representative of the Westminster “establishment” – whatever one assumes that to be.

      Although this is probably a dead thread and no one may ever read it, I am happy to try and show you where you go wrong.

      You wrote “With all due respect, sensibledave, I do not give a toss about what you are trying to say because for me EVEL is an aberration and completely against the act of union and therefore it should never be even suggested. Without a properly devolved parliament in England in line with the one in Scotland, Wales and NI, England’s only laws should not exist and should not be discussed in the United Kingdom Parliament. Because, is England currently a devolved country or not? If it is a devolved country, what sort of devolution does it have? Can you assist us on that?

      In that paragraph, because of your passionate beliefs, you make assertions. You use phrases like “it should never have been suggested” and “England only laws should not exist”. Your use of the word “should” assumes that your words are the “truth” and anyone else with a different view is therefore “wrong”.

      I know that it irritates everyone when I write the following but the EVEL along with any other laws that are made in Westminster are the result of a democratic process. One of the more recent elements of the democratic process was that there was a referendum in Scotland on Independence. The majority voted to remain part of the UK and therefore the Westminster parliament’s superiority.

      I do not write that as provocation, but as a fact. How The UK is, and will be, run is decided at Westminster.

      Democracy decided that. There is no point in me going in to too much detail because it is wasted on most here, but the only people in the UK that had a vote on Scottish Independence was the electorate in Scotland. Not me, nor any of my neighbours here in England. And again, this is not said as a provocation, whilst I was interested in the outcome of the referendum, I was ambivalent to the outcome. If one is a democrat, one may have a preference but once the people have spoken, that is the end of it.

      Moving on Maria. You can vent and wriggle as much as you want Maria but in the run up to the last GE live, on national TV, Ms Sturgeon, leader of the SNP, specifically said that the SNP would not vote on English only matters – moreover, she gave “Foxhunting in England” as a specific example of the type of issue that the SNP would not involve themselves in”. She lied didn’t she?

      I don’t see Ms Sturgeon as uniquely unusual or outrageous as a party leader as a result, she just proved that she is as untrustworthy as the rest of them, which is a shame given that she had built her reputation on commitment, passion and integrity and now we must take everything she says witha pinch of salt.

      You wrote “Just like so many others in other parties? Why don’t you grow a pair Sensibledave and mention their names and shames here? What are you afraid of? That it is going to be obvious who you are working for or who you are?

      You need to re-read paragraph 1 above Maria. You have decided who I am and who I “represent”. I don’t work for and do not represent anyone but myself. It is no secret that in most elections I would, personally, more likely vote conservative than any other party but I am not anything to do with the Tory party and I am certainly not a hack or an activist of any sort.

      If you can be bothered to go back and read some of my comments from the past, you will find numerous examples where I personally disagreed with the Tories, the labour party and the Lib dems. Because I am not “single issue”, I will listen to the arguments from anyone on any subject and make my own mind up.

      I do not need, or want, to “defend” the tories, or “westminster” they are nothing to do with me – other than to state the obvious which is that they happen to democratically represent the current government in the only place where my vote counts and where laws that affect me are made.

      With respect to all of your comments regarding Ruth Davidson, again, you make the assumption that I should defend her. Why do you think that? She is an MSP in a constituency in Scotland. I assume she does and says things to try to attract votes in Scotland and in the Scottish parliament. I don’t really care about her or those issues any more than I do about the contest for the mayor of Manchester or the Welsh Assembly. Again, I know that you find that incomprehensible but I all I can do is repeat it.

      Next you went on to a rant about various issues involving “collusion” between Labour and Lib Dems, various members of the Tory Government and various policies.

      Why do you think I should “defend” all of those issues? And this gets to the nub of your problem Maria, you have become so entrenched, single issue, narrow and skewed in your thinking that you have determined that everyone who didn’t/doesn’t vote for the SNP (and I couldn’t) is against you and are all part of one “gang” who spend our lives trying to oppress you and your fellow Scots.

      In another thread, I asked the Rev to give us an honest update on his observations of how much time, thought and effort goes into thinking about the subject of Scottish Independence amongst the average residents of Bristol (or is it Bath?). My guess was that it wasn’t mentioned from one month to the next by most people (other than by those who know of the Rev’s affiliations).

      There was no “people’s” movement in England, Wales or Northern Ireland, that I am aware of, that demonstrated any desire whatsoever to attempt to influence the outcome of indyref. None. Yes there were political parties of all shades and various celebs that campaigned – but from the “people” of the rest of the UK? Zip! No marches, no demands to continue the subjugation of the uppity, ungrateful jocks. Nothing.

      Why was that Maria? As stated above, it was generally felt that the subject of Scottish Independence was a matter for the people of Scotland to decide – and the rest of us would go along with whatever outcome prevailed.

      However, once the matter had been decided (in a once in a generation vote?), it would be reasonable, for the rest of us to assume that we could then move on and not have to keep having the same discussions over and over.

      We certainly didn’t expect to be pilloried or blamed for the outcome – as you seem to want to do.

      Neither me or my neighbours had a vote Maria.

      Finally, you ask for my views on the distribution of assets and wealth in the United Kingdom. I just know this is going to irritate you because you should already know my response.

      We are a United kingdom (for better or worse but that’s democracy for you) and we have a parliament in Westminster. The government there should be making decisions and have policies that are designed to provide security, peace and comfort to the citizens of the United Kingdom. Various parties have various views on how that should be best achieved and, in General Elections, those parties canvass to get support for whatever they are proposing. Then there is a vote and an outcome. Its called democracy.

      There is no relevance to (generally speaking) the hypothecation of specific UK assets to the specific benefit of a specific region. Its all one pot. Scottish fishing or oil revenues are no more relevant regionally for taxation purposes than the City of London.

      The assets in the UK that generate wealth should do so for the benefit of all of the people of the UK (whoever they are at any one time). This should be the case until such time that one of the Home Nations decides to vote to leave the UK – then the matter will have to be addressed I guess. I will listen to the arguments if and when that happens – and doubtless form views when I need to.

      Do you see the difference Maria. You want to wail about the perceived injustice of the distribution of oil revenues from Scotland. But we haven’t heard a peep from you on whether you think it is fair that the revenues from the city of London should be spent in Swansea, or Belfast?

      I have probably been wasting my time but what else is there to do between 9 and 10 am on a Boxing Day and it is nice to be challenged and be made to think?

      The current stance taken by the SNP on the EU referendum probably sums up the whole problem in a nutshell.

      Factually, in the recent past, the people of Scotland had a referendum on whether they wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom and there was a result.

      More recently, there was a vote by the people of the whole of the United kingdom on whether we want to remain in the EU. There was a result.

      Now, however, we have a party that represents the views of some of the people in the whole of the United Kingdom arguing that the result of the EU referendum should not apply to them.

      There were great swathes of areas in the United Kingdom where the vote was to remain – but we do not here of the democratic injustice being done to them (me). In that hot bed of political activism that is South Oxfordshire, where the vote was 60/40 to remain, there is lots of disappointment and moaning – but there is acceptance that the democratic outcome has been decided and that we should now move on and make the best of it.

      Think about this Maria, there are far more voters in England that are not getting their preferred outcome (millions and millions of us) than in Scotland. And yet, so far, I have not seen any UDI movement gather any momentum in the Cotswolds or demands that the Cotswolds should remain in the EU.

      So, where the irritation can appear amongst the “english” for example, is a frustration at the apparent unfairness of those that are anti-democratic.

      On this subject, I would certainly agree that the SNP can argue that the recent EU referendum represents a major change and that the people could, if they wish, hold another referendum to decide whether they want to remain part of the UK.

      But they need to put up – or shut up!

      The rest of us face some huge changes and there are very difficult negotiations to come. The United Kingdom needs to get the best deal it can and we need to get this done.

      What we have, in effect, is the SNP threatening to try to interfere with the democratic will of the whole of the people of the UK and make life as difficult as is possible – but, I believe the leaders of the SNP also believe that they will not win an indyref2 at this time- which is why they haven’t called it.

      So they bluster, and they make statements about their faux outrage at the democratic injustice of it all – but they don’t do the one thing that can resolve the matter. They plot and scheme to hang on to their incomes and the benefits of the United Kingdom whilst condemning its very being. They tell us how outraged the people of Scotland are – but they will not let them speak!

      If Ms Sturgeon actually had the courage of her convictions and assertions, she would immediately call indyref2. But she wont because she knows what the outcome would be. Instead, she will continue the charade that she “speaks” for the people of Scotland. She conflates the outcome of two completely separate referendums and projects a conclusion that, IMHO, is probably false at its heart. But we will never actually know because she will not call indyref2 and can therefore maintain her faux outrage at the injustice of it all.

      That is what I, personally, find so irritating, dishonest and disingenuous about Ms Sturgeon – which doubtless you consider a “win” – because you are actually not interested in democracy.

      Anyway Maria, it is cathartic to spout off every now an again but I am being drawn to thoughts of turkey on toast followed by another box of Quality Street.

      Have a great day and Happy Hogmanay.

    382. Maria F says:


      You can write until your fingers get numb, but I regret to admit that the only thing I am interested in reading from your comments is answers to my questions.

      However, if you keep deflecting them with vacuous waffle I am going to conclude that you don’t want to answer my questions because they will rightly put the unionist cause under a very bad light confirming the point of the majority o the contributors to this blog: the union is dead.

      So to indulge you and just because it is Christmas, here are my former questions plus an extra few chucked by Santa under my tree since you seem so keen on being challenged:

      1.Is England currently a devolved country or not? If it is a devolved country, what sort of devolution does it have? Is it the same of Scotland, the same of Wales, the same of NI, does it have Devo Max or rather it is already operating as if it was an independent country with three colonies?

      2. Why the British Establishment denies England of a Parliament and insists in using the MPs elected by FPTP to discuss English matters?

      3. Do you think that the stealing of the 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters by the UK government under Labour was against the Treaty of Union?

      4. Considering that Tories and LibDems were in coalition on government from 2010 to 2015, do you think they are as dishonest as Labour for not returning the 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters back to their rightful owner?

      5. Why is Ruth Davidson not shouting about this outrage to her pals in London? Do you think it is because she is weak, she doesn’t want to jinx her prospects of a career in England or rather that she doesn’t give a toss about Scotland and she is just a pretend politician out for the most she can get?

      6. Do you think that should Scotland recover its independence the 6000 sq miles will be taken back by Scotland?

      7. Why do you think Labour stole the 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters and gave them to England? Do you think it was perhaps to make Scotland look poorer and England richer in the bogus figures the UK government presents every year? Or do you think it is because they wanted control over the oil fields to indulge some hedge funds and fatcats donors of the Tory/Labour parties?

      8. How much revenue do the 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters stolen by Labour and given to England bring? Do you think that in the calculations of revenues to see if Scotland can make it as an independent country we should be including those revenues too?

      9. Recently Ms Dugdale and the Lords made some squeaky noise of more devolution for Scotland or even federalism. I mean, considering that in 1999 Labour while in government nicked 6000 sq miles of Scottish Waters and gave them to England a few days before giving Scotland devolution, do you reckon that this federalism nonsense from Kezia is just because the establishment vultures are now getting ready to gnaw at another chunk of the Scottish Assets?

      10. Scotland has a landmass equivalent to a 60% of the one England has, so why do you think the BBC insists in drawing Scotland way smaller than it actually is? Do you think it is trying to fool the people of England thinking that England is bigger than it actually is, or do you think is part of the Project Fear propaganda that keeps attempting to make the people living in Scotland feel as insignificant? Actually, it has just cross my mind that the map of Scotland may keep shrinking in the BBC accordingly to the remaining number of TV licence-payers in Scotland. What do you think will happen to the map if nobody pays the Licence? Do you think they will keep in the map only Mundell’s constituency or he will be dumped with the rest of Scotland?

      11. Scotland has a landmass of a 60% of that of England but only a 10% of the population. Such a huge difference in population compared to the difference in size is obviously going to distort how the general expenditure will look like if you want to compare both countries and you only present them as cost/head of population. So why do you think the UK government insists in presenting the figures of debt per head of population to compare the debt between England and Scotland but nowhere it is adjusting for the size of the countries? Do you think that it is just another trick to make Scotland look poor and a country of benefit scroungers that live above their means? Or do you think it is to justify investing less in Scotland than in England?

      12. The unionists keep parroting that the debt of each person in Scotland is around 1500 pounds higher than the one in England and are using this ‘fact’ as a reason to support Scotland’s dependence on England. Does that figure include the revenues from the oil? Does it include also the revenues of the 6000 sq miles of Scottish waters stolen from Scotland and given to England?

      13. I had a look at the recent public expenditure for country and region and something caught my eye: expenditure in transport infrastructure. I mean, it is obvious to anybody that wants to see, that England has far, far, far, far more infrastructure than Scotland, and yet, bizarrely, the figures appear to suggest that the people in Scotland generate more debt than those in England!! How is that possible? Then I realised that the tables are presented as debt/head of population: canny, don’t you think? Particularly when Scotland has a 60% of the landmass of England but only the 10% of the population.

      We are talking about transport infrastructure here, and while heads of population may be linked to transport, so does miles. So I decided to look at those figures from a different angle and took upon calculating how the expenditure in transport infrastructure would look for England and Scotland if instead of referring it to head of population I referred that to sq mile. Guess what!!!! According to my rough calculations England is getting an staggering 400,000 pounds more per sq mile than Scotland! Isn’t that shocking? I mean, that leaves the £1500 figure paling into insignificance, don’t you agree? Do you think Westminster ignores the size of the country in their ‘calculations’ on purpose to hide the fact that it is overspending for a rather long shot in England’s infrastructure compared with Scotland?

      Well sensibledave, I am so fascinated by that figure that I am going to check and be astounded when I compare Scotland’s expenditure in infrastructure with that of London. Mind you, thanks to you I have now interest in seeing what happens with every single aspect of the expenditure when you calculate it per square mile. I mean it is not the same to walk 100m to the nearest hospital than 100 miles, don’t you think? And what about government offices like the HMRC or immigration offices? How many of those do we have in Scotland?

      14. As I mentioned in my former two comments to you, I am very interested in hearing your opinion about the distribution of wealth and profit from assets within the Kingdoms of the UK. The Treaty of Union talks about sharing between the two Kingdoms of the Union, but the current arrangement doesn’t really look like sharing. Does it? It is more a take over by the Kingdom of England. Let’s take the oil profits for instance: shouldn’t it be a 50% for each Kingdom? I mean, at the end of the day the asset is in Scottish territory so, a 50% for the Kingdom of England is already generous enough, don’t you think? What about the rest? Doesn’t it look to you that the Kingdom of Scotland is just being given a few
      crumbs while the Kingdom of England is pocketing the whole loaf?

      15. If Scotland is such a basket case, why on earth the Tories, Labour, LibDems and the entire british establishment is so determined to keep hold onto it? What is it that Scotland has that is so precious to the British establishment? Is it the oil? Is it the fresh water? Is it the wind power? Is it the gas? Is it the whisky? Is it that is the perfect location to dump their nuclear weapons? Is it the unmatched calibre of politicians such as Mundell, Rennie, Dugdale and Davidson? What is it?

      16. By the way, I see that you use an incredibly similar deflecting technique to that of uselessdave the former PM with his long-term-economic-plan mantra and the extraordinary Brexit-is-brexit May when they don’t feel they can answer the questions without leaving their party looking like what they are, a bunch of incompetent and deceiving self-serving hypocrites. So, I hope you don’t mind me asking: are Tory HQ encouraging operatives by giving prizes and rewards to the biggest bullshit used to deflect attention? Well, let me tell you Dave, you are almost up there with the big ones…

    383. sensibledave says:

      Thick Maria 6.04

      Well that was a waste of time! There is none so blind as those that will not see. I thought you were smarter Maria but it seems I made a misjudgement.

      You blather on about 6000 sq miles of water – of which I no nothing – sorry. On the generality though, why would we need Scottish, English, Welsh or NI waters – if we are a United Kingdom? What difference does it make? It only becomes an issue if Scotland was to to vote to be independent – which it didn’t – and the Scottish Government, although they too blather on about the right to call indyref2 (which I agree with) – haven’t done so. So it is all irrelevant. That answers your questions 3,4,5,6,7,8, & 12

      Your Q1 – No

      Your Q2 – The elected members of all constituencies of the UK Parliament in Westminster (including all MPs in Scotland) have never voted to introduce an English Parliament – but I think you knew that? Please explain, with examples, where you feel the rights of non-English constituency MPs in Westminster have been discriminated against such that they have not been allowed to discuss English only matters. As you well know Maria (or should do) English only laws can only be passed after the normal amount of readings and with the full democratic process of the full House of Commons. What is your problem with that Maria? Is it that you have a basic problem with democracy?

      Your Q 10 – Do you think aliens are watching us too?

      Your Q 11 – Don’t know

      Your Q 13 – Isn’t a question

      Your Q 14 – asked and answered in a previous comment

      Your Q 15 – I assume its because the various groups you named want to keep the UK together. As I recall the general slogan they used was “Better Together”. However, the only people that had a vote on the matter were voters in Scotland – but you knew that didn’t you, because I have previously explained it, but you either don’t, or can’t read.

      Your Q 16 – …. When I was laid in bed chatting to Samantha the other day (oops, OMG, i’ve let it out of the bag now).

      Maria, your penultimate sentence in your Q 16 illustrates, beyond doubt just how silly you are.

      Let me ask you some questions Maria ….

      Should the Westminster Parliament impose Independence on Scotland – against the recently expressed will of its people?

      Is democracy only fair if you, personally, agree with the outcome?

      What is it that you would like the good folk of England to do to assist you in your aspirations?

      Why do you believe that everyone that has a different point of view to you is part of some Orwellian establishment that is out to get you?

      Do you wear a tin foil hat at all times?

      Have you thought of trying to persuade a majority of folk in Scotland that Independence would be a good thing? IMHO, as expressed previously, if you don’t win indyref2 very soon, I fear that it will be a very, very long time before another opportunity might come along.

      In a previous thread, Brexit was discussed and I provided my own, personal, views on the likely outcome. My guess is that we well end up with some deal that stops free movement (for all) and provides ongoing access to the single market for a fee (we have a budget of up £10 billion before it costs us anymore than the current arrangements do).

      So let us assume that deal has been struck. Under what circumstances do you think the people of Scotland will vote to leave the UK (that has the deal described above)?

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