Wings Over Scotland

O/T As we start another lap of our Star, I would like to wish everybody a good and prosperous New Year. I don’t send out cards as I don’t believe in the superstitions of Iron Age Goat Herders . however , in lieu of spending money on dead trees and raising the profits of a private company I send a monthly donation to a charity called Medical aid for Palestine , which gives kids much needed Healthcare in that oppressed land.

So hope you all have a great time over the next few weeks of Solstice celebrations whatever imaginary friend you follow. (Or none)

Apologies for double post earlier, WordPress strikes again!

sensibledave says:
22 December, 2016 at 11:33 am
Tam Jardine 11.01

Is there anything yoonbats wont Project Fear sensibledave.

That’s not a question. Middle and upper class UK is not going to stop buying Mercs, beemers and Audis.

yesindyref2 at 11:04 am

Whato yesinyref2!

You wrote “Google United Kingdom and click on the map. Zoom right out and compare the size of the whole of the UK compared with the world. Think about a population of 500 million compared with 64 million in the UK. Think further about the rest of Europe, and the other continents, and a world population of 7 billion compared with 64 million, and then tell me the EU will be bowing down and scraping its knees to please the UK.

Quite frankly my dear, it don’t give a damn.”

You are just plain wrong sir/madam!

Those countries and markets have been there all along and we are where we are. The EU has trade deals with some but not with others – and never will have (if they insist on things like free movement, EU human rights courts and EU style benefits and pension rights). China, India, parts of Africa???? It is those countries that represent most of the billions and markets to whom your numbers refer.

I think many people on Wings want/need to believe that the EU hold all the cards, so that they believe the EU will “win” the negotiations and the outcome, then the UK will go into recession whilst the EU prospers – and that will somehow help the cause for Scottish Independence.

Regardless of how I voted in the EU referendum, I do not believe that scenario will play out. There will undoubtedly be changes, some for the better and some for the worse – but we will exit the EU and we will have a good trading relationship with them afterwards – after all the kicking and screaming.

@Breeks says: 22 December, 2016 at 1:48 am:

“Had a wee chuckle at the irony of NI by strict definition not being in Great Britain. British, but not Great British. Cruel things words… lol”

Indeed so, Breeks.

Westminster has been heavy on the propaganda of that kind for many centuries. They have always, for example, used the term, “Union of the Crowns”, to define the King of Scots becoming also the king of the Kingdom of England.

They have always referred to the Jacobite uprisings against the independent English Parliament’s decision to depose their monarchy and import a foreign monarch as, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, but the Scottish Jacobites, (and there were many English Jacobites), could not be rebelling against an independent English monarchy as Scotland had not deposed their monarchy.

I’ve been hammering away at how important it is to differentiate between the terms Britain, Great Britain, The British Isles and the United Kingdom for years.

There is absolutely no doubt that Westminster has always done their best to insure that the general public have no clear idea of what the individual terms actually refer to.

The World’s worst in that respect is/was David Cameron who liberally, (or should that perhaps be Conservatively with a capital “C”.), sprinkled his speeches with wrong designations of the terms, “Britain”, “British”, “The Country”, “The whole country”, and even, “his country”.

To the extent that no one, not least Cameron himself, knew what the hell he was talking about. It usually was, of course, The United Kingdom.

Even then Cameron confused matters even further by calling himself, “The British Prime Minister”, and calling the United Kingdom Government, “The British Government”. Not to mention his use of the term, “British armed forces”).

Such is the dire standard of teachings in the English public Schools system that they teach future political leaders to use such total gobbledegook as the English language.

Propaganda is alive and well and dwells in the palace of Westminster. Almost everyone picks up on the more obvious propaganda but these deliberate linguistic errors are far more corrosive and effective than all of the more obvious propaganda put together.

While almost everyone can spot the more obvious stuff, like how the Murray Brothers are British when they win but revert to being Scots when they lose.

Yet the use of the wrong terms for the component parts of the British Isles is so insidious and sadly also often misused by even Scottish independence supporters themselves.

Such is the Westminster propaganda that has been with every living Scot since the day they were born as one of the people of Scotland.

We can turn off the English owned TV, radio and computer propaganda but it is much harder to turn off everyday conversation and hardest of all for us to turn off our own wrong use of these linguistic terms we have been subject to since our birth.

heedtracker 11:30 am

You Wrote “If they’re lucky, they might get a Norway EFTA style deal”

Time will tell Heedy but I am willing to bet that “free movement” isnt part of the deal we eventually agree. Again, I think that is wishful thinking on your behalf because you want to believe that because that will cause political issues in England

When Mendolez or Proctor and Gamble do deals with their customers, they do one type of deal with a corner shop – and another type with Tesco. In this analogy, Norway and Switzerland are the corner shops – the UK is is Tesco. If the Mendolez don’t have a deal with Tesco, then they will seriously affect their own business. Tesco will beat them up on the price, they will get better deals – they have more buying power.

Of course, Mendolez can withdraw their products from Tesco and tesco’s business would, by degree, be damaged too. But what’s the point? They both need each other so they will do a deal that they both can do.

The EU knows, in the end, that insisting on free movement is not going to result in a deal so pragmatism will be the result. The EU recently signed a trade deal with Canada. Free movement is not part of the deal. QED!

Telegraph, Spain rejects Nicola Sturgeon Brexit plan for Scotland in seemingly fatal blow

I always knew the Telegraph was right wing, it’s been the Torygraph for a long time.

I used to assume its readers tended to be better informed that those of the tabloids.

I thought its content, while right biased, was at least analytical and facts based.

Now, it seems to have completely lost the plot and sounds more like the Express or Mail on the same quest to turn Greater England into an isolationist sub-fascist state.

Yesindyref

You wrote “If I had 27 partners or customers all on the same deal, and one even with 10% of my business demands special terms, making the rest unhappy, I reluctantly say “no, sorry”. Or all the rest will want special terms as well.”

You are confused sir/madam. The deal you refer to where 27 customers all have the same deal – is the one for the club members. They have done some other deals with affiliate members (Norway and Switzerland).

The UK, I assume, will take the position that it isn’t a club member or an affiliate member – it is like Canada or the USA. Free movement will not be part of any deal.

I think your problem is that you are not accepting that we are leaving the EU. So, think of it as we have left the EU. We are independent and we are free to agree a totally new deal.

We are not negotiating some sort of partial or affiliate club membership – we are negotiating as a very large, independent, proven, convenient, attractive potential market for the EU 20 miles off their coast and where the EU currently has a £70 billion trade surplus.

Why has the EU done a trade deal with Canada that doent include free movement?

The EU knows, in the end, that insisting on free movement is not going to result in a deal so pragmatism will be the result. The EU recently signed a trade deal with Canada. Free movement is not part of the deal. QED!

There will still be free movement sensible. Its just going to be sold as something else and as a good thing, for Britannia, who loves foreigners really.

Its not about causing political issues either sensible.

England and or the UK are not that different from the City and UK banking. Its too big to fail. And that’s all that the Brexiteers have up their sleeves. £2 tn national UK debt, just under control but probably not UK deficit, all of which can drag teamGB into the abyss.

Its not like its never happened sensible. Google IMF, and the UK. And what’s dragged the UK away from IMF bailouts sensibledave? 30 or 40 years of EU membership prosperity.

And now a pack of super rich toryboys, fronted by a fascist like Farage and a corrupt tory BBC, have all waltzed the UK out, cheered on by people who have nothing.

Its certainly not a coincidence that the 2016 Heil Trump campaign, exactly matches 2016 Leave, is it sensible?

Andrew McLean 12:10 pm

Andrew, you miss the point completely (as is often the case).

I am not arguing for Brexit. I am not arguing that Brexit is a good thing. I am not arguing we will be better off economically afterwards.

I am arguing that anyone should see that this is a negotiation (that I didnt vote for) where both parties have economic realities to deal with.

It is possible I am wrong (I was wrong once. I thought I was wrong about something but it turned out I was right all along). I merely note that every comment from Wingers above assumes that the UK will suffer economically and that this is desirable somehow because it is believed that it will help the cause of Scottish Independence.

What if it goes the other way? What if the smudge deal involves tariff free trade plus an annual fee to buy that tariff free trade – but no free movement?

Arguably, it currently costs the UK a net £10 Billion pounds per annum, the acceptance of free movement, acceptance of the superiority of the European courts membership, etc – to have “Free trade”.

What if it only costs us £10 billion for “free” trade?

I think I could “sell” that deal to the UK electorate.

Picked off Twitter …

link to archive.is

“Brexit forces all the ambiguities of our unfinished constitutional business to the surface. Issues currently parked in the ‘too difficult’ tray will suddenly become pressing concerns.”

…. I don’t find much to disagree with in that article. It’s much as I would see events unfolding.

@sensibledave
You seem to have a serious comprehension problem, reading what’s not there, and not reading what is. Including your own contradictory postings.

If the UK wants the same deal as the USA might or Canada might, or Australia might, then of course there’s a good chance it’ll get it though note that TTIP after all these years isn’t going down too well, either in the EU or the USA now with Trump.

But if the rUK wants tariff-free and non-tariff tariff free deals near to what it has in the single market, so there’s no tariffs on cars from Germany as you claim is important to them: “If Merkel wants to put up the price of Mercedes, VW, Audi and BMW cars by 10% in the UK then that is within her gift.“, then it’s not a TTIP type of agreement you’re thinking of, it’s a single market deal.

Make your mind up, is it single market or TTIP type of trade deal, or do you want to argue all things, just for the sake of it, and some silly frustrated snide remarks?

And I’d rescind that bet if I was you (friendly advice), I know a man who will put you on the spot for it – and enforce payment afterwards.

@sensibledave
As far as CETA is concerned, I suggest you read this:

link to ec.europa.eu

And note that CETA is not even through the European Parliament, let alone ratified by all EU 28 or 27 member states.

Aye , well said Breeks @ 12.34

“Sock” it to ’em

link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk

The unionist media are in denial about it, but a second independence referendum moved even closer this week

@Breeks

Well said, Sir! 🙂

Breeks 12.34

You wrote: “You won a vote in a corrupt and truncated process which did not address practically ANY feature of Scotland’s constitutional dissatisfaction.”

Wrong on every count Breeks. And that my friend is your problem – i.e. your trench mentality where everyone is “against you”. As a result of that total misconception – you completely miscalculate everything else.

I DIDNT WIN IN A CORRUPT AND TRUNCATED anything!” I am nobody. I live in England, I didnt vote in the scottish referendum, I am not a hack, a politician or an activist of any sort and I didnt “fight” for anyone or anything in the referendum.

I did vote in the General election for the UK Parliament and I am almost certain I didnt vote the same way as you in that election. After the vote were counted, it turns out the Tory party were able to form a government. In the one before that it was a Liberal and Conservative government and in the one before that it was a labour government. In the recent EU referendum I did not vote to leave (nor did 60% of folk around me).

All those votes happened – and I accept the outcome without wishing ill on those that voted another way. With respect to the EU referendum, we are now going to be leaving. So, as a democrat, I accept that and look to seek to make the best of it. In each case I accepted the democratic outcome. That is where we differ I suspect

You, like much of the Labour party and Liberals in England desperately want and need economic failure now. They want the negotiations to be difficult, they want to frighten people (project fear?) they want only to portray and concentrate on the downsides. In other words, they would like ordinary folk to suffer – in order to boost they political prospects of their preferred party!

You just don’t get it do you Breeks. I had nothing whatsoever to do with the outcome of the vote in Scotland. But your logic appears to be because I take issue with things written here, I must therefore be a Unionist, an EU “leaver” and also anti- Scottish Independence?

yesindyref2 12.52

Again, you miss the point completely. I am not “for” any existing model! We are unique, we are in a unique position, we are hugely important to the EU exporters, we are 20 miles away, we have existing trading relationships that are very important to both sides.

With respect to the CETA deal, these are the highlights from the website …..

CETA will:

remove customs duties

help make European firms more competitive in Canada

make it easier for EU firms to bid for Canadian public contracts
open up the Canadian services market to EU companies

open up markets for European food and drink exports

protect traditional European food and drink products (known as Geographical Indications) from being copied

cut EU exporters’ costs without cutting standards

benefit small and medium-sized EU firms

benefit EU consumers

make it easier for European professionals to work in Canada

allow for the mutual recognition of some qualifications

create predictable conditions for both EU and Canadian investors

make it easier for European firms to invest in Canada

help Europe’s creative industries, innovators and artists
support people’s rights at work and the environment.

With CETA, the EU and Canada pledge to ensure that economic growth, social issues and environmental protection go hand in hand

…. I can see absolutely nothing there that the UK government, or electorate, wouldn’t be happy with! Combine that with zero tariffs either way (or even an annual fee from us of some sort) and you are home and hosed!

… you are not thinking straight indyref

Police Scotland should stop putting people in cells over night on ‘charges’ which can never go to Court. 50% of ‘charges’ cannot go to court. Before the Police investigated and then charged, Now they ‘charge’ or put people in cells and then investigate. Back to front. Before they would give a warning for mild misdemeanours. Is it to put up ‘arrest’ targets? The Police should have more training in ‘Scots’ Law. Stop Orange Marches. How much does policing cost? They might get a week end off.

@sensibledave
Oh dear: “yesindyref2 – Again, you miss the point completely.” and “you are not thinking straight indyref“.

That, my friend, is a standard tactic used by someone who has lost the debate, and lost the plot.

As far as the point you’re trying to make it seems to be that the EU will bend over backwards to accomodate the UK, even at the risk of hacking off all of its 27 members, the 3 members of EFTA, Switzerland, Canada, the US, Australia, and all the rest of the 120, 130 countries it has trade treaties with RIGHT NOW.

link to ec.europa.eu

As for CETA being a model, perhaps you should look up what the UK Government and others have already said about that as a model. Clue: it ain’t what you imply by “we are in a unique position, we are hugely important to the EU exporters“.

As I said, the UK is a small group of islands off the north-western coast of mainland Europe which contains the EU. We’re just another country the EU does business with. No, we’re nothing special. No point in puffing ourselves up like a peacock, sensibledave. We’re just a shade of grey.

Well said Breeks. Agree with every word.

Sensible Dave at 1.42

U said We are unique,we are in an unique position, I say you forgot the bit about we are delusional!

breeks at 12.34 well said

@SD
I should have added: “And one which not only doesn’t want to be part of the club, but is LEAVING it with a lot of nasty comments about the club”.

Just leave the membership card on the way out, close the door behind you.

@CmonIndy
Yes, and it’s why I’m reluctant to slag off Labour. Left alone they may be able to reconsider their position. Antagonised and they’ll get their backs up. I’ve noticed the Unionist press putting up articles which seem to me to be designed to encourage “cybernats” to attack Labour.

Tories, now that’s different, they’re fair game! Or unfair come to that.

Indyref 1.57

You wrote: “As I said, the UK is a small group of islands off the north-western coast of mainland Europe which contains the EU. We’re just another country the EU does business with. No, we’re nothing special”

So indyref, in your continued efforst to do us down, underestimate our bargaining position and generally, tell untruths – you become a fact free zone! I have already cut and paste the CETA highlights – which are fine, and now I have to show you a list of GDP in 000, Biliions (the tabbing may lose something on the cut and paste) ….

United States 18,561.934 24.7 1
China 11,391.619 15.1 2
Japan 4,730.300 6.29 3
Germany 3,494.898 4.65 4
United Kingdom 2,649.893 3.52 5
France 2,488.284 3.31 6
India 2,250.987 2.99 7
Italy 1,852.499 2.46 8
Brazil 1,769.601 2.35 9
Canada 1,532.343 2.04 10
Korea 1,404.383 1.87 11
Russia 1,267.754 1.69 12
Australia 1,256.640 1.67 13
Spain 1,252.163 1.66 14
Mexico 1,063.606 1.41 15
Indonesia 940.953 1.25 16
Netherlands 769.930 1.02 17
Turkey 735.716 0.978 18
Switzerland 662.483 0.881 19
Saudi Arabia 637.785 0.848 20
Argentina 541.748 0.720 21
Taiwan Province of China 519.149 0.690 22
Sweden 517.440 0.688 23
Belgium 470.179 0.625 24
Poland 467.350 0.621 25
Nigeria 415.080 0.552 26
Islamic Republic of Iran 412.304 0.548 27
Thailand 390.592 0.519 28
Austria 387.299 0.515 29
Norway 376.268 0.500 30

Let me help you with the relevant bits. Norway is the 30th biggest economy in the world with $346.6 Billion. Switzerland 19th with $662.5 Billion and Canada 10th with 1,532.3 Billion.

The UK is 5th – only behind United States, China, Japan and Germany with $2,646.9 Billion. That makes nearly twice as big as Canada, 4 times as big as Switzerland and over 6 times bigger than Norway.

Furthermore, in terms of EU imports in 2015

Canada imported 28.3 Billion
Norway 74.3 Billion
Switzerland 160.0 Billion
UK 290.0 billion

…. i.e. the EU exports more to the UK than to Canada, Norway and Switzerland put together!

I really hope you don’t run a business indyref! You clearly demonstrate that you couldn’t negotiate your way out of a paper bag!

We are not “special” indyref – but we are very important. Get that in to your thick head.

Canada imported 28.3 Billion
Norway 74.3 Billion
Switzerland 160.0 Billion
UK 290.0 billion

So why is England so desperate to not lose control of Scotland sensible, if it such a big economy, propped up giant borrowing?

Really, folks, we must stop feeding the troll

sassenach says:
22 December, 2016 at 2:47 pm
Really, folks, we must stop feeding the troll

Awe! We cant go out to play, have you seen the weather outside…

Anyway it would be great to hear why a toryboy Britnat like sensible is so actually so terrified of a PR democracy like Scotland, prospering away, and not reigned over by Westminster, Lords, royals, tory BBC led media goon show etc.

And yes, we know sensibledave, you britnat toryboys only want what the majority of those Brits in your Scotland region of greater England, really wants. Coz youre all so democratic n shit, you great big Christmas dingdong.

Sassenach

So sassenach, I assume, by your definition, a “troll” is someone who deals in facts and actual thought.

I note that no one is jumping in to support indyref’s “position” that the EU sees the UK has some irrelevant, distant atoll of no consequence to their economic welfare.

And Heedy …..

Please, try and keep up. We were talking about Brexit!

@sassenach
I think this must be a different sensibledave, the other one was quite polite generally, wasn’t puffed up with self-importance, could hold an argument, and wasn’t just an insulting brainless blinkered little prick.

I guess it’s the raw recruits sent in to cover Christmas.

Please, try and keep up. We were talking about Brexit!

Youre not saying anything though, other than rule britannia. Look sensibledave, gaze upon your fellow britnats of the scotland region. Its not a Glasgow panto cast either. Or is it?

link to twitter.com

Sensible Dave,
I posed a question to both you and your twin Phil, in a previous thread. I will ask it again, and it should be pretty easy for you to answer.
” Do you think Westminster is corrupt or not?”
Again I look forward to your answer, but more in hope than expectation.

@Lenny Hartley
Yes, it’s the passporting and financials are the problem, and that’s something CETA doesn’t have, nor any country outside the EEA. Switzerland has access to only parts of the single market, and a big omission is the vast majority of services, including finance. Norway gets it – as part of the EEA.

Short of the four freedoms, EEA, the City of London is screwed. And what percentage of the rUK’s exports is that, compared to relatively simple goods? Important to Scotland with our food and drink exports, much less so to the rUK.

SD’s attitude is quite typical of the smug but defiant attitude of the likes of Express posters – and writers. Plenty of abusive rhetoric, no substance or reality. They really think they can have it all, while cursing at the EU.

In reality, if the rUK doesn’t go for the EEA, it might as well go for the full hard Brexit. Which is us in Scotland, fucked.

To add to my last post, the notion that the EU will back down on free movement is frankly, ludicrous.

The REALITY is this, the uk can walk into the negotiations and demand/request/beg for A,B,C right up to Z, but if the EU say No free Movement, NO DEAL, then they are fucked.

The Uk has NOTHING to offer the EU from OUTSIDE the EU, absolutely ZERO.

Again, the REALITY is simply this, the EU will make an offer which involves free movement of people, the Uk government will accept such a deal and try face down the fury of 17 million Leave voters and pray they do not vote Ukip en masse (not going to happen on a big enough scale imo) then pray labour win the next election to take the flack, or walk away to the hardest of hard brexits and have the ‘cliff edge’ exit that the Government are utterly desperate to avoid.

The uk government are trying to sell a turd, polishing the turd just makes it a polished turd.

@ sensible Dave 3.22pm

Think you may find that 27 (28 if it includes I Scotland) states might just have something to say about your buy in buy out shake it all about proposal.

If I’m a member of any club I get to use facilities at a member’s rate in return for my fees. Anyone not a member of said club could expect to pay considerably more for access as a visitor.

Britannia may or may not rule the waves these days but when it comes to cold hard business it’s all about the money.

@sensibledave
Why don’t you just give it a rest? We’ve heard your crap so often now that we do not need predictive text to help us! P’haps you get paid per entry by MI5 or some such. If you need a supplement to your earnings why not apply for a funding from here? I’m sure you would get lots of support. NOT.

I’m sorry, I should not feed the trolls. And anyway why don’t you, dave spend your time concentrating on the mess your english “government” is making of this whole issue instead of poking your nose in where it is, not only not welcome but not relevant!

I have tried in vain to find any contribution of yours that contains anything that approximates to a positive, on either side of the argument. But then I tend to get somewhat pi**ed off reading and scroll on.

And that is what we should do. Ignore this freak! He offers nothing…………

Again ‘sensible’dave…

You state THIS….

“So I am arguing that we could, if we wished, pay the net £10 Billion for the “free trade” agreement as we do now and as a buy out from all of the stuff we dont want”.
…..
Ok, try understand the REALITY here, it is NOT in the gift of the Uk government to demand nor deliver such a deal.

The uk can put forward such an idea but when (not if) the EU say..”no free movement no deal”, that plan is dead in the water.

You still seem to swim with the delusion that the Uk government is in charge of the upcoming brexit negotiations, that is an utter fantasy, as is assuming that the deal you suggest would allow the uk to walk away from all the stuff they do not want.

There is ZERO chance of the uk getting anything like the deal you suggest, in fact i am willing to bet you a punch in the face it will not get such a deal.

Loser gets puched in the face with no defensive action allowed.. well, confident in your nonsense plan ?

A wise man once said, ‘if you crack your head against a wall long enough, it will bleed’.

sassenach 3:20 pm

You wrote “Indeed it must be a struggle for them to maintain a Christmas Holiday roster from their ever-decreasing pool of idiots”.

There is only me Sessenach! But if it helps you though, you carry on thinking that there are hundreds of sensibledaves ganging up to bully you.

I note you have nothing substantive to say in response to my points other than to (try to) shoot the messenger (and miss by a country mile!).

The thing that amazes me about this site is that people are obviously so passionate, so desiring of change and so committed to the cause – and yet there seems to be virtually no back up to any position taken.

If you were truly interested in politics, economics, the EU, etc, surely you would take an interest in finding out facts and considering various potential outcomes.

I can see that many are already getting excited about Ms Sturgeon’s recent pronouncements and are identifying the next opportunity to go for indyref2. But has anyone stopped for a second to consider other scenarios.

Let’s follow up the on the scenario that I outlined above.

Lets say that because of the economics of the situation, the UK negotiators agree a Brexit roughly based around CETA plus we pay £10 Billion – in return we get “tariff free” trade (bear in mind that if we dont have tarifF free trade then might collect around £10 Billion in Tariffs from the EU for the pleasure of them exporting things to us and we could then support our exporters with lower taxes).

Then, imagine the UK is now outside the EU with a trade deal we are happy with.

Does that help or hinder those that desire an Independent Scotland?

If you think that hinders the cause, should you go for indyref2 before hand?

What if the timing isnt right and you don’t carry the vote a second time?

Under what circumstances might the Scottish electorate then vote to leave the Uk (with its unique deal with the EU in place) and to then try and negotiate independently with the EU? How would that work? Would the EU allow Scotland in without the Euro? etc, etc.

It is surely the case that Ms Sturgeon and her team have already worked all this out and that the realistic options for Scottish Independence, post a successful Brexit, look very, very difficult.

That would explain the recent pronouncements and attempts to obfuscate and delay things to try everything to prevent a successful Brexit – because otherwise that could mean the end of potential Scottish Independence for the foreseeable future?

Personally speaking, rather than helping the Independence cause, I think the current situation could be a nail in the coffin if the Scottish Government don’t go, and win, indyref2 in the very near future.

What say you ladies and gentlemen?

Come on people. Sensibledave is not an individual. It is a team bent on distraction.
However, some of the stuff is interesting to see countered.

Karmanaut says:

UK is no longer the 5th biggest economy. Since Brexit, France and India have overtaken the UK

Indeed. I did read somewhere that a post Brexit UK is likely to be the 10th biggest economy. Can’t find it though. But overtaken by France, India, Italy and Brazil would make it 9th.

Which is actually quite astonishing! A moment of utter madness in the voting booth causes such a big movement in ranking.

Then if Scotland weren’t to be part of that Brexit, who knows!? Which countries are snapping at iEngland’s heels? Canada, South Korea, Australia would seem to be contenders.

@galamcennalath –

Please bear with me.

I’m no pretending to be dim here. It’s a genuine mystery to me. Let me strip the money out of it and take a different angle…

If the whisky can only be sold as ‘Scotch’ if it’s made in Scotland, and Scotland is, according to the UN, a nation, then surely it becomes a Scottish export as soon as it leaves Scotland. Is that right?

If so, has the bottle in Japan, in effect, been ‘exported’ twice?

Proud Cybernat says:

YES = 53%.

Here’s another way to look at it. Three groups are open to persuasion to varying degrees based on the two referendums …

Yes-Remain ~30% will be near certain Yes again
Yes-Leave ~15% will mostly put Indy first
No-Remain ~30% will be offended by a hard Brexit

We only need to get 1 in 3 No-Remains persuaded to vote Yes and we are home and dry!

we have a £70 billion trade deficit with the EU and we currently pay a net £10 Billion into the EU coffers for the pleasure of being a member).

Think for yourself Geeo, think!

Think about the debt involved. Consumer debt in the UK is much more than just throwing it on the credit card until the New Year,

link to bbc.co.uk

Warning as household debts rise to top £1.5 trillion

“Give us what we want EU, we’re too big to fail.” and the jocks can lump it, they vote to remain under our control, for eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever.

@Ian Brotherhood

It’s a claim often made that Whisky exported via England means we miss out. I don’t see how.

Whisky exported has had no duty paid on it, because it leaves the tax jurisdiction prior to consumption by the end tax paying consumer.

Nothing which is exported has any duty, VAT, sales tax etc paid on it. These are all things countries put on goods sold in their own country whether or not it is imported or made locally.

There are also no such thing as export tariffs (I believe) only import tariffs.

So Whisky shipped to Japan has had no tax or duty paid to HM Treasury.

If it’s a decent malt then it might well be worth quite a lot per bottle, even with no tax.

It’s Scotch and it has to have been exported from Scotland. If it goes via other countries, possibly being repacked in to different containers, then you could say it has been imported into and exported from another country. However tax is collected in the country of sale.

@sensibledave
Noticed in your comments that uk is 5th largest economy in the world. It’s actually now 7th. Of course I’m sure the folk who will hopefully benefit from the food box I just dropped off at the food bank will be celebrating the UK’s economic status when they tuck into their xmas dinner of sorts.

The standard of living in the U.K. languishes somewhere down the bottom of the league tables but that’s OK of course.

Noticed you mentioned economics in there. What has been beneficial about the UK’s economic strategy over the past four decades? We got more billionaires??

There’s something I don’t get – if the UK pays what it pays now to stay in the market won’t it also have to abide by all the rules that it will no longer have a say in determining, that’ll be a bit of a hard sell won’t it?

There will be a second referendum on Scottish Independence, May needs it to validate her position through a No vote.

All Nicola has to do is ensure that the poll is not tainted by the Yoon State.

Paula Rose 4:36 pm

You wrote: “There’s something I don’t get – if the UK pays what it pays now to stay in the market won’t it also have to abide by all the rules that it will no longer have a say in determining, that’ll be a bit of a hard sell won’t it?”

In the imaginary scenario I outlined, we would pay £10 billion to keep tariff free trade with the single market but dump the other stuff along the way (free movement, European courts, Straight bananas, etc).

In that scenario we would be in the same economic position as prior to our exit (i.e. we pay £10 billion rather than paying a net £10 billion) but we have dumped all the other stuff we dont want – and we are free to spend the rest of our previous contributions where we decide – rather than where the EU decides).

I think that all the Leavers and Remainers would go for that as an acceptable compromise/outcome and I think that the average person in Germany, France and Italy would go for that too.

The EU would get our net £10 Billion per annum as a “commission” on the deal.

yesindyref2 says:

what difference there is if that’s an EU country or a “third country”, whether as barrels or bottles,

Yes, I agree that within the EU it is at its most confusing, however goods moving around the EU aren’t really imports/exports. Which I suppose the point of free trade within a single market. 🙂

I know from experience it is worth buying booze online directly from mainland EU where you ‘only’ pay their VAT. Though, I haven’t done it since the pound dropped!

“What I don’t “get” is requirement to insult and stereotype everyone south of the border in order to make the points they feel the need to make.”

There is none. But you knew that.

May and the britnats are continuing to do aa excellent job for the independence movement in Scotland. Britnat arrogance and ignorance is, if anything, increasing. As brexit talks get serious a further increase will ensue. Unlike May NS is doing exactly the right thing by taking a responsible line in dealings with the EU and Westminster. It seems britnats are hoping the “Scottish Problem” will disappear if they just ignore it. When IndyRef2 and Scotland’s independence becomes unignorable I expect britnat politicians to react rashly – possibly sanctioning violence. With that independence is assured.

@sensibledave:

I wrote a more detailed reply to your post but it vanished into the ether.
So here’s a slightly more brief comment upon your very twisted thinking.

You Wrote “ … I think that is wishful thinking on your behalf because you want to believe that because that will cause political issues in England … Blah! Blah!
Blah!”

Then you continued … When Mendolez or Proctor and Gamble do deals with their customers, they do one type of deal with a corner shop – and another type with Tesco. In this analogy, Norway and Switzerland are the corner shops – the UK is is Tesco …”

Thing is that when you talk of the UK your concept of what that entity might be is utter claptrap. You have, above just referred to, “England”, and then you are comparing the UK to various international and Britain wide retailers.

However, England is a country and only one of eight countries in the British archipelago and even only one of four in the United Kingdom.

Not only that but you haven’t yet grasped either the actual legal setup that is the United Kingdom nor yet the illegal actuality of what is operating as the United Kingdom at this point in the relationship of the only two legal partners in the United Kingdom. If you cannot grasp the basics you cannot understand the complexities.

Here it is in a nutshell.

Britain is an archipelago and Great Britain is the largest island in that archipelago.

Great Britain is composed of only three individual countries, (smallest first), Wales, Scotland and England.

The rest of the British countries are, Ireland, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

The last three are NOT governed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and neither is that part of the politically partitioned country of Ireland that is a Republic because republics cannot be parts of a Kingdoms.

There were thus only two kingdoms in Britain in 1706. These were the single country Kingdom of Scotland and the tri-country Kingdom of England that had annexed the Principality of Wales, (by the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284), and was whose Monarchy were made Lords of Ireland by the Pope in 1177. The Lordship of Ireland refers to the Norman Conquest of Ireland, a feudal rule between 1177 and 1542, under the King of England who was referred to as Lord of Ireland.

This lordship was created as a Papal possession after the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169–71. The King of England,(as Lord of Ireland), was represented by, “The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland”, between 1660–1922.

In 1542 the King of England forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the crown of Ireland upon the King of England’s head.

This was the Kingdom of England that forced the creation of the United Kingdom upon Scotland in 1706/7. The United Kingdom is thus legally a bipartite Kingdom.

So when you speak of only affecting England you obviously have no clear idea of what actually composes England in that context. England is a country but the Kingdom of England is three countries, or more correctly, two and a bit countries as subsequent to the treaty of Union the country of Ireland was politically partitioned and only the Northern part elected to remain in the United Kingdom.

Note the Northern Irish voted to REMIAN in the United Kingdom because Ireland was already part of the United Kingdom between 1707 and 1800/1.

Yet the actual set-up of Westminster has now become rather different from the legally agreed Treaty of Union and has officially been described as different in UK government commissioned documents :-

This from the current Secretary of State for Scotland :-

“The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as “The United Kingdom”

There is the nub of the matter. The legal status of the United Kingdom is that it is not a single country but is a bipartite United Kingdom with two equally sovereign partner kingdoms.

The actuality, only on Westminster’s say so, is something else entirely.

Westminster has appointed itself as being the sole parliament of the country of England yet the old parliament of England sat and wound itself up it has never been legally reconvened.

Yet Westminster funds only the country of England directly with United Kingdom Treasury cash. It draws up legislation for England using English law and it imposes EVEL upon the MPs from Wales, N.I. and Scotland preventing them voting upon what Westminster considers to be English only matters.

Furthermore, Westminster decides what level of funding the Parliament of England is to grant Block Grants to Wales Scotland and N.I. by use of the Barnett formula then rubs the other three countries noses in it by further regulating their block grants by use of Barnett Consequentials.

Scotland is not an English Kingdom’s acquired underling country and Scotland is not just another English region.

Scotland is legally a fully equal sovereign partner in a bipartite United Kingdom composed of two kingdoms. England is very lucky that Scots have net openly rebelled before now.

Perspectives : War between the Superpowers could be just around the corner.

link to theguardian.com

John Pilger WW3 Break the Silence – on YouTube

Should current US military build-ups in Europe and in the south and east of China, prove to be more than ‘deterrence’ value, then both Brexit and IndyRef2 will fall off the political radar faster than the radiation wave, from the first Russian nuclear missile to hit Faslane, will travel through Dunoon.

With foreknowledge of US military planning, Theresa May would be highly unlikely to seriously engage in detailed arrangements for either Brexit or IndyRef2. Oh, wait….

yesindyref2

Nearly everone forgets that there is another “Proper Bank” in Scotland that ticks along quite niecely non toxic and forever out of the headlines – Airdrie Savings Bank.

Is it not completely obvious that the Yoons are in meltdown when captain sensible is sent by ‘Head Office’ to fill this thread with verbal diarrhoea??

Talk about digging their own graves!!

@galmcennalath & yesindyref2 –

Hey, thanks for trying, but I’m as confused as ever.

🙂

Has sensible started his Christmas holidays? Hes no bin aff aw day. Skils skailt, mibi hes heedmaister wie nae muckle ken o uk.

Git him telt RP

Surely if we all just ignore his posts he might just give up and stop posting his rubbish.

As for myself as soon as I see his name at the top of a comment I scroll on to the next one.

Lord Digby Jones
?@Digbylj
When will Sturgeon stop obsessing about a2nd Indpt Ref & get her single issue party governing Scotland at which they r doing appalling job?!

1:01 PM – 21 Dec 2016

Another schlub sends his seasonal goodwill and Britishness. Or, Another trip around the sun, with these arsewipes in charge, coming up Scotland.

Alistair 5.41 pm.airdrie savings bank should be doing more advertising. Maybe open branches down south.

Sensibledave fcuk off back to your “work”

I see Dave doesn’t deny he see Scots as sub-human. Telling?

Dave, regretfully, switches off his employers computer. Lifts up his mop and pail and starts swabbing down the office…

found this via Labour Uncut

link to archive.is

JP Morgan predicts Scotland independent by 2019

OT Trump, who doesn’t want to waste money of the F-35, is happy to upgrade the USA’s nuclear arsenal. Thank you America. We’ll all sleep safe in our shelters now.

Oh! Did I miss something? Has dave pi**ed off? Well thank fcuk for that. Twas getting a real bore scrolling past his nonsense.

We can all look forward to a crap-less couple of days.

Sleep well dave!

Heil Trump.

link to bbc.co.uk

Donald Trump: US must greatly expand nuclear weapons
1 hour ago
From the section US & Canada

yesindyref2 @5-54

Re Courier poll, I decided to give Harvie a wee lift, as it’s nice to see Slab at the bottom!

Is that a wee bit naughty of me?

Regarding the £10bn talked about regards the UK’s EU membership. It was never about that as we know. As for taking back control, well the control taken back will be corporatised by an edifice of power which is actually more extreme in the neoliberal sense than the troika.

So people waiting for the benefits of these repatriated powers are going to see the plane fly straight over their head and into the city of London.

The main difference they will see is in their human and employee rights which were formerly under the more moderating influence of the EU. Their employee union will be all but a wet handshake and a whimper as their terms and conditions are demolished without recourse. Wonderful.

Sensibledabe may be right in that the UK will successfully forge new trade links at lower cost (although we scots are still lectured that our only trading partner can be rUK.). It will be an attractive export market to some countries since the U.K. runs a considerable trade deficit. No biggie really – the uk just exports its (costless to produce) £s around the globe.

With all the above in mind however, it will be back to square minus one for the person in the street.
A large trade deficit means a growing govt deficit (unless you can encourage people to take on more personal debt – a la thatcher – but that ship has sailed). Of course the neoliberal establishment abhors national debt and austerity plus will be onl the menu.

There simply is no benefit to the person in the street.

Tits usually are in pairs.
Sensible D is one.
Most brains have two lobes.
D – he has none.

End of —-

Not even clever enough to troll intelligently.

To quote an old Methil saying…..S#!T FOR B34INS!!

PLEASE IGNORE THE KNUT!

@sassenach
Sounds good to me, he deserves to be higher.

It would be good if everyone got co-ordinated though, for everyone to vote for Willie, put the word around and get him 90%. What a laugh! You could just see the media going berserk about it all over the UK, and half of Scotland would be sniggering our heads off.

Andrew Neil would be like “well we certainly saw the SNP at its peak in May, it’s well down in popularity now”. Must be all the cybernats on benefits paying his wages.

Oh dear. Rising sea levels map of Scotland and Wales with surrounding islands. c 2100

@Dave McEwan Hill

Shortbread radio too! They certainly did. Good old Auntie. 🙁

Anyhoo! Link (I hope to fmqs) for those who want to hear all the goodwill on their last one this year.

link to scottishparliament.tv

Phew, insensible‘s departed fur the noo.

What puzzles me is the unshakeable delusion that he seems to share with many of those he lives among, including HMGov it seems (as brewsed acutely observed upthread), that when negotiating with the EU, HMGov somehow has the upper hand, and is not the supplicant. (Or maybe Theresa and Co. do realise it, which explains why they really don’t want to talk about it.)

yesindyref2 and Lenny Hartley touched upon the Achilles heel of HMGov’s case: financial passporting.

They surely can’t afford to let that slip, and they won’t get it without the four freedoms. The EU won’t relent, not least because it would fatally undermine its own stability, and anyway there are plenty of countries more than willing to take up the financial slack.

My nightmare scenario therefore is that UKGov will in the end relent on freedom of movement and try to brazen out the consequent Leaver sh*tstorm, blaming Nicola for putting a spanner in the hard-Brexit works by threatening indy. They can’t afford to lose us either, because we’re actually their natural resource insurance policy, without which they fear they will also be in deep doo-doo.

Please someone, just assure me it won’t be so (and why).

@Robert J. Sutherland
It’s quite genuine from what I’ve seen, the empire biscuit crowd really do think every “foreigner” hangs on their every word, that they’re superior, and everyone wants to be them. Very sad. Usually I’m more patient, but having spent some time the last couple of days posting on the Express …

Yoons of Aberdeen dont like Alex Salmond. Wullie Young and chums banned Salmond from all their ACC property and the Saltire too but just when you think UKOK unionism can’t get any weirder…

link to alexsalmond.scot

yesindyref2

Your wish is my command, Harvie now above Slab again!

Robert J Sutherland @ 0945 pm ; Don’t think that TM has
many friends ( if any) left in Europe ? Whereas , possibly our FM
has quite a few ? Consequently , perhaps we could have some
influence ” on the other side” of Brexit negotiations ( if not much on the UK side) . TM could therefore have
to pay a high price to ” buy off” the FM’s threat of Indyref2 . NS might
well feel that she is holding some ” high cards” and has no need to bluff .Perhaps a ” partial independence” position ( looser links to U.K./ stronger links to Europe) could be the
minimum requirement for our FM . Does TM want to gamble on ” the union”?
A compromise ” partial independent” position is only one step ( major disagreement on foreign policy) away from the ” end game”. Either TM negotiates on this with both the EU 27 and our FM or
she is ” forced” to gamble with the union . Her choice , she can continue to ” bury her head in the sand” over Brexit and risk not only the union , but also possible disasterous economic consequences for RUK .

Another cracker from GAPonsonby on BBC Scotlasnd’s downplaying of Nicola Sturgeon’s Brexit proposal.

I wonder which manager/editor/producer took this decision?

link to indyref2.scot

Very good, that’s Patrick 10 votes above Kezia, and only 5 below Willie! It wasn’t my idea by the way, it was sassenach’s. Sturgeon now up to 65%.

@BDTT
I use ccleaner – same as I do for the Herald. There’s a free download – link to piriform.com.

@Conan the Librarian / @RJS
I don’t post there often, just when I can sit doing something else (work) and go back with a post every so often to keep near the top. It’s easy because they’re so uninformed or giving out misinformation. Like 2 days back someone saying the SNP were only just ahead last election.

No, says I, 63 MSPs to the 31 of the nearest competitor, more than twicee as many, and SNP 46.5%, LAB 22.6%, CON 22.0% – again more than twice the nearest. I reply to a few then leave it a bit. I also point out the insults they throw at Sturgeon and the SNP – a good list of quotes.

They don’t like facts, I always get a good few thumbs down 🙂

BUT there’s one or two reasonable ones do get the point – and reply, so it’s worth it for that – and to foster good relations for Scotland. Come visit us and see for yourself – you’ll be welcome, don’t listen to the SNP-haters (sort of thing). I should get paid by visitscotland!

Brian Doonthetoon,

O/T I’m not up to date with anything like the latest browser on any hardware, Brian, but usually you can (manually) navigate to some kind of current cookie list and (manually) delete specific cookies as required. It may be tedious, of course, but it’s surely possible with yours (Safari?), no…?