The Other Kind Of Winning
The National runs headlines like this quite often.
The sort-of newspaper doesn’t actually have a sports section – it just publishes The Herald’s – but if it did you have to wonder what it would look like.
That IS the story, too. The actual figure in the poll The National reports is 35%, almost exactly the proportion of goals scored by Sort-Of Rangers at Ibrox on Sunday.
It’s hard to know what we’re meant to make of this factlet. “If something that you know is never going to happen somehow happened, how would you feel about it?” isn’t much of a question. Frankly we’re quite impressed that as many as 77% of Find Out Now’s respondents expressed a view either way to such a meaningless proposition.
The data was further undermined by the fact that the question offered no context, such as how this declaration would come about (ie whether it would follow an election with a majority of seats for indy parties, or a majority of votes, or just suddenly be announced out of the blue).
And the detailed numbers watered down the headline still further, revealing that just a quarter of Scots would “strongly support” the idea, with 10% “somewhat” in favour, whereas those opposed were almost all strongly opposed.
(And not insignificantly, if a civil war broke out they’d be the ones with all the guns.)
Quite why The National thinks it’s a headline-worthy thing that in some inadequately-defined hypothetical scenario the Scottish Government would find itself trying to force independence on a country with only one in four people behind them is somewhat beyond us. Even for the summer silly season in politics it’s desperate stuff.
But perhaps they could drop Gianni Infantino a line and let him know about it, because he’s currently in a bit of a pickle and is probably willing to give anything a go.
The National is a Goebellsian comic strip that does more to damage any credibility of the Independence movement than anything else.
It’s up there with the Daily Mail and TeH GrAuNiAd in terms of hysterical desperate swiping-at-air agitprop and barefaced lies. The Daily Sport has more credibility than this bumwad fodder.
That poll shows that 3/4 of the population oppose or don’t have have an opinion one way or the other against 1/4 supporting UDI. Hardly a resounding level of support for UDI.
Make you wander just what they are trying to say?
Go Stu, nice analogy! Still sticking it to the Hun after all these years!
Were a collective/ junta/ faction consisting of Scotland’s brightest, one would hope for the brightest, were to do a well planned UDI and not tell the media or the dog of the plan, is it rather unlikely the Brits could do anything about it except send in the troops which would look terribly bad in the media. The Scottish population, which is remarkably docile and forebearing, even in extremis , would just wait for the winner to emerge.
The Scottish education system which once vaunted the thinking individualist lad o pairts type now produces conformists with well developed thumbs who wouldn’t know a coup d’état from a junta or care much either way as long as the internet did not go down.
So worth a punt, t’is the season to be silly after all.
“rather unlikely the Brits could do anything about it”
They might immediately stop paying benefits and pensions.
I’m entirely in favour of a Scottish political party campaigning for election at both WM and HR on a platform promising that if they are voted into the majority position (which means power at HR), they will commence negotiating Indy, with the UDI backstop if the talks are drawn out unnecessarily.
That would be implementing the democratic will of the Scottish electorate.
Anything else will be firing the starting gun for civil war and the break up of Scotland.
H McH: I really believe that, in the end, there will be no alternative to an immediate UDI in the event of an election majority for independence. The negotiations will come later via the Treaty – which cannot, in international law, be by-passed no matter how many declare it to be dead. The entire UK of GB stands or falls by the Treaty and the Union it created – and Westminster knows it.
If they refuse to pay benefits and pensions, we refuse to supply energy and refuse to send taxes down to the Treasury. Two can play at that game. They might send in the army, but, since a good proportion of it remains Scottish, and we have thousands of former soldiers in our population who could mount a pretty effective guerrilla war, or have the nous to direct one, it would be supremely stupid. Scots also populate the security services and many of England’s lifeblood services.
When the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union followed suit, Russia could do nothing to prevent the breakaways of the various republics, and Westminster will be able to do little to turn the tide back to the Union if it all kicks off. Ireland beat them into a cocked hat eventually and they, the Unionists and Brits, were very much stronger then, with the Scots backing them rather than against them.
Had De Valera not ruled out a war with the North, the Unionists, under James Craig, would almost certainly have been defeated there, too, by Michael Collins. De Valera, of course, realized that Collins would have taken poll position in Ireland’s internal politics, and he could not have that. England is weak, just as weak as we are, but in a different way, although we should never underestimate them.
It would be uncomfortable and even desperate for a short while, but, if we declared independence, there would be no lawful or peaceful way to turn back the clock. I am certainly not advocating war with the rest of the UK, but there will, in the end, be no way round that UDI. The SNP administration knows it, which is why it will go on avoiding the creation of the conditions for it to take place for as long as it can. Unionists can be opposed to independence, but, when it comes, they would be extremely foolish to try and stand against it rather than embrace it as a fait accompli.
«They might immediately stop paying benefits and pensions»
indeed they might but Scots would have made their contributions to such so withholding would be seen as punishment by appropriation and reinforce the negative notion that the UK is indeed a one sided union.
It would be easier just to send in the troops and more «honest», but immeasurable in terms of the propaganda to made of it by the «junta» assuming its members have the machiavellian flair.
Know your enemy, is very important to success. The best players in this game are virtually indistinguishable from the opposition.
«My god,thought he was one of us» sort of thing.
The Great Game comes home.
Actually, when I wrote they might stop paying benefits and pensions that was intended to illustrate a reason why vast numbers of us Scots will have no stomach for the fight.
And the threat that would have us caving immediately.
It would be enormous fun to wargame our armed insurrection against odds of 10 to 1. Plus, of course, any prognosis must follow on from where one believes the balance of economic power lies. Is all that “free leccy” real, for example. In a state of armed conflict, who will accept payment in Pounds printed in Edinburgh? If somebody will, what percentage cut will they take to convert them to real ones?
Naw. Too many Scots seem to feel an affiliation with the wretches of G@za. My view is many of us would get the genuine experience.
But hey, I could be wrong! What is it the youth say – FAFO?
Said it before and will say it again. The National only exists, and only ever existed, to leverage and exploit the indy £. End of.
I am having some difficulty reconciling the donut chart graphic which shows, among other things, that the ‘Don’t know’ cohort looks like nearly a quarter, lets estimate conservatively and visually, it looks like about 20 – 22%.
When I look at the article in The National [1]
I see sliver of 7% attributed.
When I look on the findoutnow website, I see no data [2]
The number of people who ‘don’y know’ is massively important to interpreting what the result actually means in the real world.
Stu can you aid my comprehension please?
[1] link to thenational.scot
[2] link to findoutnow.co.uk
Oh FFS.
“Scots give verdict on unilateral declaration of independence”
link to thenational.scot
Here’s the deguffed archive version:
link to archive.is
I’m in no way defending the National, and going further, a story in their paper that promotes actual movement on indy would have my spider senses tingling, BUT on the actual figures, it does make you think, would people actually be opposed? Before a campaign started for indy around 2012, support for independence was under 30% was it not? Did that figure ultimately count for anything once people got access to information and motivated by the thought they could actually DO SOMETHING? The SNP are clearly very much against doing anything and they’re very comfortable with “Westminster says no”. Justifying their stance with “the people wouldn’t accept it” (assuming they make that argument) would be BS and this story probably just makes it relatively obvious.
My take on Scottish society is that you’d get similar numbers mobilised against UDI/non Brit authorised indy as you get
a) at an Orange march
b) at a Union Bears gathering
c) at an anti-immigrant fat bald men against foreigners gathering
(note – a b and c as circles on a venn diagram may have a high overlap)
It’s standard practice to strip out Don’t Knows. The significance of the result is that it shows a much higher level of support for UDI than is expected.
The first failure of the SNP under Sturgeon was when she was on her grand tour in Edinburgh, I stayed in England at the time and traveled up to Scotland to listen to what was next stage in restoring Scotland rightful place as a nation. A schoolboy stood up and asked her “when would be
having another referendum” it was the question everyone wanted answering, her reply was we had one we lost it wouldn’t be fair on the over side if we had another. So what is Sturgeon saying here because it just didn’t seem to translate to the people in the hall who wanted Independence because both me and why wife traveled all the way back to England talking about what she had said and questioned why she made a statement of stopping progress rather than making progress.
The second failure of the SNP under Sturgeon, should have been a warning sign of what was to come, but not many took notice. It was in 2015 when the SNP was looking to win a Westminster election the party paid for billboards right across Scotland saying “Lets Make Westminster Work For Scotland” both me and my wife left the SNP that year.
How the SNP has conned the Scots, they tell us its Westminster who denying democracy then on election night tell us to vote for the SNP because its only the SNP who can guarantee 100% on a referendum but its the SNP who’s gave England the power on the constitutional question.
The SNP is destroying its self and yet the people who support the SNP and run the SNP are so blinded to what lies ahead.
Its simple, if Scotland is in a voluntary union or is free to leave when ever it wants but the process setup up by Westminster (Section 30 order) isn’t allowing that process to proceed then UDI is in my opinion the only option.
I have to ask the simple question what does the SNP stand for? Because they don’t stand up for the Scotland or its institution its people or our industry’s.
I am applaud that the SNP stole the Independence referendum rufund and its been brushed under the carpet with no interest apart from Wings.
All these items I’ve mentioned are worrying and yet the National still parades Sturgeon as if she still running Scotland.
I got a free years membership to the national and the next day after Salmond was found innocent the national posted a letter or letters from these accusers. I was angry at that, on that very day I contacted the national and cancelled my free years subscription and have never bought their paper since.
The some of articles written in the national by these so called journalist and then people comment on these articles leave anyone who wants Independence thinking have you not just read what I’ve read and why aren’t we all on the same path.
I honestly believe true Indy supporters who actually want Independence are constantly be duped by FAKE Indy supporters to support the SNP and to buy this Rag of a news paper to constantly keep us divided.
I have no idea how anyone who wants Independence can stand and read what been written on these comment in the National articles, the comments are to say the least written my idiots or they are designed to engage us to aggressive debate because no one can be so stupid to whats happening in politics in Scotland to say the things that’s being said.
For me the most important country’s in the world to recognize Scotland as a Independent country again is Russia, China and the USA and the rest will follow. Why people believe that Europe (colonizers) themselves will help Scotland is for the birds these country have a lot to lose in assets themselves if Scotland becomes Independent, so we shouldn’t expect their governments to help.
People go on about Trump and I keep trying to make the point Trump love chaos he’s annoyed with the Britain and here is our opportunity If there is one thing trump loves it to make money and who would I rather deal with regards to the north sea England or Trump and if we wanted to declare Independence this is our opportunity to get USA backing and he’d love it and the benefit to Scotland is freedom, so shouldn’t just dismiss Trump because we don’t like him theirs more at stake then likes and dislikes.
John Swinney holds more cards than he’s knows, could you image if Swinney went to America and asked Trump directly if he would support UDI, the UKG would be in a panic. But Swinney is no leader and the SNP is no Indy party and this is our problem but Scotland does hold more cards then some would have us believe.
We need to call out the FAKE Indy scroungers and bypass their opinions.
I’m sorry about my written I have to read what I’ve written umpteen times I believe I must be dyslexic.
<b But Swinney is no leader
Aye, that’s the problem. Scotland doesn’t have any leaders.
Swinney calls himself a leader, but he’s a judas goat. Nobody looks to any of the bloviating clowns in the less-Scottish-every-election Parliament for leadership. The kind of people who have what it takes to lead aren’t usually interested in the pay cut being an MSP requires, but for the hopeless losers in Holyrood, it’s as if they’ve won the idiot lottery.
There’s no other employers in Scotland who would offer sleekit Sturgeon, Humza “I hate white people but I’m dead Scottish so I am” Yousaf, or our ertswhile Minister for Independence, Jamie Hepburn, the same kind of money. They’d struggle to get employed in a supermarket. They’re “leaders” in the same way “trans women” are “women”.
Martin O’Neill is a leader, mibbe we can ask him?
Even Derek McWinless at I Can’t Believe It’s Not Rangers would be a massive upgrade.
If its the National reporting, you know its duff information.
If we respect the Claim of Right, we need a majority of the sovereign Scottish people to be in favour of independence. UDI by a minority of would constitute a betrayal of the Scottish people. It would not be respected by the UN or the international community as it would be demonstrably against the current expressed wishes of the Scottish people.
There has never yet been a majority of voters in any election voting for parties campaigning for another referendum. As others have pointed out, that is what is needed to give credibility.
Convince around 10% of soft ‘No’ voters of the benefits of independence, showing a clear majority, and all becomes possible.
“If we respect the Claim of Right”
… then we should know that the Treaty of Union was never implemented; that in 1707 only Scotland’s parliament and government was dissolved whilst England’s parliament, government, laws and embassies and all else continued as before, rebranded as UK when it suits; that the reality is Scotland was and remains an annexed territory; that there never was created ‘one kingdom of Great Britain’, because that was impossible in a conditional treaty between two kingdoms; and because the Claim of Right as a condition of the ToU guarantees that in Scotland the people of Scotland remain sovereign, not any parliament or monarch.
The fact is that nobody requires a referendum to end what was and remains a criminal deceit, a colonial hoax, and unlawful annexation of Scotland.
link to youtube.com
That is your interpretation. It would be fair to say that it is not universally accepted.
Whatever the real or imagined reality of what happened in 1707, there is a current political and constitutional status quo that the people of Scotland are living in. Today.
Surely you would accept that if any group of people within the Scottish population wish to make a fundamental change to that, they should be able to show that a majority of the population – or at least a majority of voters – is in favour? Anything else would be a shameful denial of democracy, much less the Claim of Right.
Other than by a referendum, or perhaps (with caveats) a plebiscitary election, how can the current will of the Scottish people be established?
How does that required majority support criteria being met for a particular policy to be implemented play out in the UK’s day to day governance?
Dear Alf, I know yours is a lone voice at times here with your endless use of the C word, (I am a supporter of that view, by the way) but before this post degenerates into a private conversation between the usual suspects, here be my tuppen’worth of despair… to add
1. I dont believe for a single minute, that any of that Scottish historical stuff written on a piece of paper hunners of years ago matters one jot. So that can all go in the bin. Sorry James Che. thats just how it is. Gianni Infantino will have more say in this people’s future than any of those dead sea scrolls.
2. Scotland (just a collective noun for now) as you well know, has the same political standing in the world as Curacao and Aruba. No more no less. And I think thats the way its gonna stay, because
3. Forget about referenda etc. and plebiscites and what else? thats right, oh yeh a de facto election doodah. Its all bollocks. The point is the Yanks aint ever gonna allow it to be any other way due to the ruskies or the future chinois making their way south of iceland towards new york.
Just had a look at the eclipse there, better post this before i go totally blind…
I’m not sure about the facts of your comment, but would there be a corollary that an independent Scotland repays to the English taxpayer all of the Darien loss recovery bribes that preceded the Acts of Union?
Fortunately there is already a fully fleshed out strategy which deals with this issue of democratic acceptability as best as it can be dealt with.
Don’t say that we are going to rush straight into a UDI, which will indeed provoke obvious protests.
Instead say that we are going to use a normal election in the normal way to get a mandate for the proposals that we put in our manifests in the normal way.
That way once the people vote for those proposals the people are already conditioned to expect them to be delivered, as is normal.
And the promise that we promote and then keep?
Say that we will use their democratic mandate to throw off the chains of devolution preventing us from holding referendums as any normal parliament should be able to do.
Our parliament has always been far more popular in polling than any one party so this victory will also be substantially easier to get a substantial voter approval for than any proposal for ‘raw’ UDI.
Think about it. It make sense to be clever and play to the strengths we have.
Attack the problem in stages.
Win the first bit and we are in a better position, and we will have a win under our belt for some much needed political momentum.
That would work.
This bit needs looked at:
“Once the people vote for those proposals the people are already conditioned to expect them to be delivered, as is normal”
But I do see what you are getting at.
I don’t know about you but a “Were a collective/ junta/ faction consisting of Scotland’s brightest, one would hope for the brightest, were to do a well planned UDI” sounds like someone is hoping students will take over, I would physically fight against that if it came to that.
I still can’t see how less than a third of folk are in favour of something so we can have a revolution?
If folk want independence the first thing they need to do is elect a competent Scottish Parliament to convince folk that it is possible. The donkeys we have now I would not trust to run a jumble sale and as for letting folk like Ross Greer and his ilk start a revolution, don’t think so.
This is a non story and isn’t going to happen anywhere in the multiverse, in fact I can’t understand the reason for even running the story!
It’s August. It’s the silly season. The schools are out. Most folk are on holiday. We’re already tiring of The King Of The North In The South but it’s still too early to be calling for him to step down.
That’s why the story was run.
@ LORNCAL
In American political mythology there are considered to be Four Boxes of Liberty;
the soapbox ie argument, the ballot box ie the vote, the jury box ie the law and finally the cartidge box ie direct action.
Scotland, as far as i can tell, has opened three of those boxes.
The SNP have “Pandora’s Box” most commonly refers to the Greek myth of the first woman, Pandora, who opened a sacred container releasing all human evils while trapping Hope inside.
UDI
people should stop using the wrong damn words; UDI is not appropriate terminology – it associates with Rhodesia and illegality.
our indy would be “treaty revocation”. That is what it would be. It would not be secession either (we are an ancient nation, older than England). You campaign on independence, win the election, then fly to the UN and call it; mind that its what the yanks say that matters (though everyone else on earth fucking hates the english and will vote for you). At no point do you ask for permission or enter into negotiations with the rosbifs; they will try to con you as usual (“federalism”), you just want a moving day. Mind the yanks despise the english, all they are about is oil and guns; sell them the oil, buy some jet fighters, job done. That is as much “realpolitik” as you need.
What I am really looking forward to is a genuine SECESSION OF THE MIDLANDS, probably around 2035; what happens is, under growing political pressure, a UK PM goes for more “devolution for the regions”, including regions where – certain demographics have local superiority – like the midlands. Note that when you have an average of say 30%, it means in certain places you can be well over 50%. So all these areas – let’s call it “GroomingGangLand” become effectively self governing, a powerhouse of vape shops, turkish barbers, money transfer shops and snide ciggies and dodgy imports … the natives move out. Then one day they turn around and say – you know what … WE’RE A COUNTRY NOW. And the UK will do nothing because it can’t do anything. It has this fantasy of fighting the rushans in a new style barbarossa …
link to theoccidentalobserver.net
Here is something people need to remember – our armed forces are shit, they can’t do it in a real war and they are especially bad in a civil war (peacetime armies are garbage, it only attracts the dregs and the psychos); the army has 50K men with guns, the cops 16K men with guns – if 1M are on the streets its over. What is worse the riot tactics they are using are well out of date and very soon we will see rioters using drones, just like those eastern wars, with home made bombs attached to them. The british army recently got routed in a war game by yoo okee-boys using drones. Now translate that to the UK. Your riot shield wall won’t do shit when the drones are dropping incendiaries on you. Roasted pork, anyone?
The UK will break up, and we might not be the first to go.
Best thing for all is if the anglos just be muslim; get the archbishop out and let him say on behalf of all anglicans “there is no god but allah and mohammed is his prophet”
– its not like you people put too much importance on religion anyway; your religion was all about a tyrant’s adultery, that is all. And luther, an autist who wrote the shitpost of the millenium, whose main interest was shagging nuns; he also pimped them out. Yeah, just “j3ws that eat pork”.
The pain comes with the effort of the struggle; angle-land is already defeated, gone forever, accept it and move on. The english don’t really understand freedom and don’t like it much anyway; they need the jackboot on the throat to feel wanted and love their tyrants – william of normandy, longshanks, henry 8, lizzie #1, even cromwell gets a good writeup from some of them; they like being conquered a lot. Now for the muslim conquest; minarets for the cathedrals, could look radical. England needs more grooming gangs (and feminism); to destroy a people, destroy the young women, then that detestable race will simply vanish due to brown-cocked “prima nocta” and hot needle infanticide.
“our indy would be “treaty revocation”. That is what it would be.”
—————————————————————-
Have you not read the thousands of posts on here that say there was never a treaty?
Jews and shirt lifters! Have you started earlier tonight, Confused, or are you still on yesterday’s bender?
Still though, I can’t find it in myself to be totally critical. Confused discovering, in Year 5 no less, that his hated Eastern European “Nazis” might actually know what they’re about. Could be useful allies for Scotland, what with their first-hand experience of real colonialism and colonisation. And their peerless ability to fight.
Next thing, he’s gonna spot that smart countries are getting on far better as allies and trading partners of TA, than as sworn enemies. Or performative posers on their very own self-selected moral high ground.
But better give that penny another 5 years to drop.
Indeed it would be better if people condider how what they call things affect how people think about it and react to it and understand it.
Petar A Bell has coined the hashtag #ScottishUDI which is memorable and easy to search for.
It describes a specific process which is specific to Scotlands situation.
The knee-jerk ‘ye cannae-dae-it’ ‘ye-dinnae-wanna-be-Rodesia’
unthinking crowd thankfully are slowly being worn down.
Remind us again how UDI worked out for Rhodesia.
There’s something wrong with my atlas. I can’t find the place.
C
An interesting take however for one, I object to servicemen etc being regaled as “dregs and psychos”..
Very 18th century and Dickens that middle class attitude eh?
If you have served (which I suspect not) then that’s your opinion. If you haven’t..
Well;
Oh dear, not good, not a good look at all..
Some of the finest human beings I have known are those who stepped up and served under fire.
Consider before blacking those who in the event of independence we would rely on for our own defence.
Yes, the military and its recruitment via tv adverts now is being lamentably feminised and won’t be what it was by a long stretch- but hey, at least they are prepared to give it a go albeit we are laughably behind on the technology and numbers front.
If you haven’t walked the walk then dispense with talking the talk.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing. The Overton window won’t move unless you make people consider it.
I have read the comments and surprised I seem to be the only one taken aback the National found time to put Scotland on the front page for a change from their usual obsession (and, presumably, readership base)
Polling outfits use the same wide-open franchise as the 2014 referendum did when selecting potential respondents – this means the opinion of indigenous Scots is submerged.
There are a number of reasons for this, but it’s complicated – and is a world-wide controversial area .
Scottish-born Scots are the majority of the population (approx.4.5 million), the core of the Scottish-only identity group (approx. 3.5 million), and are the group most aligned with “Yes”
But their preferences aren’t isolated in headline polls.
Their views are statistically submerged within the broader resident population.
Scottish-born respondents are more pro-independence, that’s statistically predictable.
Scottish-born respondents show much higher Yes support, rest-of-UK born respondents show much lower Yes support (almost none), overseas-born respondents vary – but lean to No or undecided.
This pattern has been stable for many years.
Identity amplifies this pattern:
This makes identity the strongest predictor of constitutional preference.
In short, the headline polls measure:
They do not isolate and measure:
So although the headline polling numbers are meaningful within the concept of democracy, they aren’t informative for understanding the constitutional preferences of the indigenous Scottish population.
The 2022 Census shows:
This is broadly similar to the identity distribution in 2014.
So the identity composition of the electorate is similar.
Therefore:
And they haven’t.
In short, True Scots vote Yes.
Only the votes of True Scots need be counted.
This one’s already been done to death, Northy, innumerable times. But of course, you already know that.
Consider your environmental footprint in future, and cut straight to the point.
“Polling outfits use the same wide-open franchise as the 2014 referendum”
——————————–
The 2014 referendum was a vote not a shit Nation paper poll.
Have you seen Glasgow recently?
Muslim and African colonists are filling up the Dear Green Place nicely. Every other town in Scotland is starting to fill up with “refugees”. This is how it unfolded in Ireland, before long you’ll be wondering where the Scots are.
The Scottish people don’t have long to go before they’re a hated minority in what used to be the land of the Scots. Humza already hates you, and he claims to be the most Scottish man who ever lived.
Unless of course we find some leaders with balls.
Burnham has said he is going to disperse these immigrants more into middle class areas from now on.
They’ll be leaving next door to you Red.
You must be well chuffed Bilbo!
One leader would be exactly enough.
Let’s not make the mistake of thinking that the more leaders we have, the better the outcomes will be.
Because that’s shite.
Lead, follow, or get oot the road!
Middle class people probably don’t vote Labour.
Working class people possibly do.
It took Burnham to join these dots and adopt the obvious policy that will leave Labour support unaffected.
Coming eventually. Enforced accommodating of illegals in private homes with spare rooms. Middle class people will have the space. Working class people won’t.
Another win-win for the politicos. Nothing is gonna be off limits, apart from stopping the boats and deporting those already here. These two are the sacred cows.
As a species of refugee, i do not live in the land of my birth, i do not share all of the fears engendered by the foreign. Cultures that mix are all the better for it. Skin color is a mere accident of biology, it is only «skin deep».
Besides Scotland is a nation with a declining population it is the immigration that keeps the numbers up.
Has no one considered the possibility that new arrivals might be happy to become Scots, given the chance? The blood ie «race» & soil nationalism is retrograde & more likely to commit Scotland, as an idea, to oblivion.
On a crowded planet ethnic mixing is the future.
Remember, Scots have done a fair amount of settling in their history and mostly for political or economic reasons.
“Cultures that mix are all the better for it.”
Not necessarily, Chief.
Turabdin – “Besides Scotland is a nation with a declining population it is the immigration that keeps the numbers up.”
Scotland’s native population is declining in part because of immigration. It’s kept house prices and rents high, and wages low, even as Scots are crowded out of their own universities.
Suggesting immigration as a cure for low birth rates is like burning your own house down because you were cold. Or “helping” endangered species by filling their habitats with new predators. High levels of immigration is the very last thing a society with low birth rates needs.
Remember folks the Trasional is just a comic without the pictures
My newsagent doesn’t stock it, so I’ll never know.
I agree with the comment that the SNP no longer stand up for Scotland it’s institutions,industries or people (native white especially)
Could Swinney ask Trump to help reopen the Grangemouth refinery,at least he could take the credit for that.Instead of trying to take the praise for the King who helped remove the tariffs on Scotch.
Grangemouth would likely re-open if the North Sea was to be re-opened and the known resources still there were to be fully developed.
That’s unlikely because the SNP/Green fannies in HR have committed Scotland to Nutt Zero earlier than WM has committed the U.K.
No point in having a refinery with fuck all to refine. President Trump will see that clearly.
Folk are seriously wanting Trump on their side to help? that smacks of real desperation.
(And not insignificantly, if a civil war broke out they’d be the ones with all the guns.)
But you’d have all the lanyards and the trannies. No contest.
Problem with polls, is they distort the real issue.
Witness the USA, where Democrats and Republicans polarise opinion to extremes, quite literally detest and denigrate each other’s principles with no common ground anywhere. Yet collectively constitute an American state indifferent to war crimes and assassination, (unless it’s the enemy of the day committing them), and wilfully complicit in genocide and the corrupt subordination of the US Government to a foreign regime.
Who polls better in America? Why ask? What difference would it make? Let them thrive or be consumed by their own madness.
Polling for Scottish Independence is just guidance for the bookies. That fact will not change until the pro Independence movement addresses the fears of the doubters, and presents a cohesive, pro forma concept of Scotland, detailing what an Independent Scotland will look like and how it will function.
Don’t dwell on the subjective bits. We can talk amongst ourselves later. Build upon the objective certainties of laws that exist and Constitutional benchmarks which are foundational.
Until then, opinions and polls mean nothing, because opinions are universally fractured, with no cohesion to any majority view. We don’t need a million people with their own pet opinion, we need one opinion and the greater part of our population subscribing to it. Frankly, if the case can’t be made in a Wee Blue Book format, then we’re not ready for this.
Without action, now, we are doomed to repeat the disaster of 2014, where the crossover from NO to YES was largely a process of enlightenment, but where the BritNat media strived to keep the electorate ill informed and away from YES positivity. YES turned lights on, Better Together switched them off.
This time we are in, right now, is the quiet time, where and when the Independence movement should be drawing up robust plans for the resurrection of our Scottish nation; how it will be governed, what it’s Constitution will say, how the finances will work short term, middle term and long term, (and a swear box for any fool mentioning GERS).
Tell the International Oil markets how Scotland would run its Oil Industry, engage with them, allay their fears. Tell our Whisky industry how the tax burden will operate, tell Europe and our own population how Scotland would like to interact with them. Trade our fears for theirs and develop mutual respect.
Have a social blueprint for how our delicate cultures can be made safe, from public health to housing, and explain why the nation should be glad this will be done in Scotland’s interests before anybody else’s.
Make the right calls; do we want a resurrection of heavy industry? Do we want an oil industry? How do we redirect London’s profits into Scotland’s coffers?
Who are our friends? Who are neutral? Who are our enemies?
How do we police our sovereign security? Can we rehabilitate Unionists to believe in a free Scotland, or how do we reconcile their beliefs so they don’t fester into hostility? OK, boot out the BBC, but what should be done on day 2?
Have a cohesive Transport policy both domestically and with Europe and beyond. Get Alf Baird and Stewart Ballantyne putting their ideas in front of Scotland’s people for approval, not UK prejudice because of the notional threat to Dover. Get the boats built.
Tell the Scottish people, in detail, how and why the Treaty of Union has always been a sham and cynical manipulation of Scotland’s rights, wealth and privileges. Put a price on what 300+ years of subjugation has cost Scotland. To the extent our subjugation has been colonial, with particular reference to assets stripped, we seek restoration of what was rightfully ours.
Do all of this, on a timetable we dictate, and Scotland’s resurrection as the Independent Nation she was always meant to be will be realised, and Scotland’s lungs will draw air for the first time in centuries. It won’t matter whether it’s a referendum, UDI or rampage in the street which delivers the coup de grace for the rotten Union. It won’t matter. The method of it will be an obscure historical footnote which nobody particularly values. We are not creating the birthday of a “thing”, we are setting a “thing” free after too many birthdays squandered in subjugation.
300 years of subjugation is not a cause for pride or celebration, but dignity in the justice of ending it will be a more enduring thing to pass on to our kids.
Lastly, we absolutely do not need the SNP or bore-du-jour masquerading as leader to do any of this.
All very well but where aboot’s this genocide at?
Thing is, if there’s a real genocide ongoing, none of the rest of your post matters as much as a gnat’s fart by comparison.
By the very volume of your comprehensive, multi-subject tirade, you reveal you’re simply posturing to score cheap brownie points.
I can see a time, in the not too distant future, when the ‘one person,one vote’ is seriously challenged.
Why should an individual who chooses to be a workshy layabout and contributes virtually nothing to ‘society’ have the same vote/voice as an individual who actually works/pays taxes to fund the wasters lifestyle choices. It is only a matter of time before some right wing party suggests a points system for voters where say one ‘workers’ vote is the same as 2 of the ‘workshy’. An opportunity for Mr Farage maybe? In our current democracy,taking it to extremes, 10 of the workshy types can outvote 9 of the workers keeping the status quo.
The adoption of say a ‘points based’ system would have serious implications for the likes of the SNP as we all know which section of the electorate the bulk of their core vote comes from.
The current voting system is clearly not working and change is required. 30% of the vote wins elections! Why should the workers continue to fund the wasters! I am not talking about disabled or retired people here. Migrants is an entirely different issue.
In life there is one thing you can be certain of is that NOTHING stays the same and change has to be embraced, whether you want it or like it.
Some countries make voting in elections mandatory. I would not be averse to this happening in Scotland. If nothing else it would concentrate the minds to our current crop of useless politicians to actually do something worthwhile or face the consequences.
Just my thoughts-some will no doubt disagree.
Chas there, focusing his intellect and angst on the “wasters and workshy” of society as being such a burden on the taxpayer coin: But if he actually looked at “flow rates” of monies he could see that there are far larger amounts of cash being lost to the UK Treasury by big corporates, companies, and individuals utilising tax avoidance / evasion measures.
It does bother me that there are quite so many folk in receipt of benefits of some kind. But I can understand the motivation for folk to milk the system to some extent, because the way society is currently setup we have a low wage economy and the fundamentals of cost of housing, be it owning or renting a property make attempting to live a reasonable quality of life existence on a low wage very difficult, and folk will be drawn into the mindset of not working because of this. Cause and effect have to be considered in all this.
Not having the routine of working also brings in the issue of folk falling back into the negatives aspects like social isolation due to lack of interaction with others, and also stuff like not feeling a sense of achievement and self-worth one gets by carrying out jobs.
Problem lies with the system…
A couple with one child approached a charity in Glasgow for funds to replace their worn out sofa.
Neither are in work, both are in receipt of benefits of multiple types, and both are on paper as acting as the other’s “Carer”.
The charity asked to conduct a monthly income vs expenditure with the couple to determine whether a donation was appropriate.
The couple it turns out are in receipt of £4000, yes, £4000 per calendar month in benefits between them!!!
Needless to say the charity declined to donate towards their new sofa.
I’d love to get paid 24k a year for sitting on my arse doing nothing. I’d need to be earning nearly £30k before Tax and NI to get the equivalent.
If that’s not an example of a broken welfare system I don’t know what is!
Yes, “the problem” does indeed lie with the LEFT WING “system”.
“We” actively encourage dependency, all to be paid for by an ever-diminishing pool of grafters. Utterly unsustainable, and about to break. Lots of rats leaving the sinking ship right now.
Indeed…
Full-time (38hr week) employment on the (voluntary) Living Wage gives a gross annual salary of £26,600
A gross annual salary of £28,500 gives you a monthly income after deductions of approx. £2000
So the two individuals whose circumstances I detailed above are earning almost 2k per annum more on benefits than they would working full-time and in receipt of the hourly rate for the Living wage.
It’s just so f**ked up.
Can you imagine the scale of brass neck required to approach a hard-pressed charity for a new sofa, when you’re getting four grand a month clear (no taxes to pay) in benefits already.
There, in a nutshell, is the problem writ large.
An interesting idea, Chas, but in a country where the immigrants are doing an ever increasing share of the jobs, giving them an ever increasing share of the votes could be problematic for Whitey.
Although, as alert onlookers must surely have twigged by now, simple demographics has already skewed our politics in directions it would never have gone without uncontrolled immigration.
You have neglected to consider the tsunami of unemployment arriving shortly via AI. The jobs most likely to be retained in large numbers are unskilled, labour-intensive ones not amenable to automation.
The very jobs where immigrants comprise the bulk of the workforce!
I did state that migrants are a separate issue!
Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the blazing sun to stare at, through cheap specs, at a «phenomenon» which at its fullest, occurs somewhere on the planet approx every 18 months.
Rare it isn’t but the masses massed to gaze in prescientific age wonder at the heavens comes close.
Hark!, do i hear the gods laughing?
What a nasty sneering comment. Perhaps back in your homeland, which you have told us is not here, they chase away the bad spirits which swallow the sun with drums and dancing.
I don’t think you like us TURABDIN.
I may be wrang but I think Turabdin lives in Scotland.
a wee bitty racial stereotyping going on with you. Why do you think people back in Turabdin’s “homeland” believe the sun is swallowed?
I’m a keen amateur astronomer but as you say a solar eclipse is regular enough to be a non-event, not to mention the absolute folly of anyone looking directly at a ball of nuclear fusion a mere 93 million miles close. There is a rather hysterical article in the Daily Heil today regarding people staring at the eclipse and now complaining of eye pain.
These people have a vote. It’s almost enough to make one wish for eugenics.
glad to find below the liners with a sense of proportion not to mention a sense of humour. have this year completed a degree encompasing theoretical physics but do wonder if i possess sufficient grey matter to satisfy the btl requirements for certain individuals but i have my wee mesopotamian drum to chase the sun eating demons away.
the next total lunar in Iraq is december 2028, gets cold, birds stop singing, dogs howl….now that would be something to bang the drum about.
These eclipses are only really spectacular if you are in a region of totality. Otherwise – a damp squib – as it was in Glasgow yesterday. UK MSM were all over it – all I could think was – bread and circuses.
M
I’m on holiday at the caravan on the Solway coast, quite a turnout of people to watch but as I suspected from the last one it was all something of an anti climax.
What was good was after dark the Perseeids comets, only 5 minutes craning my stiff neck up and I saw two (in an area noted for it’s dark skies).
Never seen one before and wow, what a speed they travelled at, blink and you’d miss it!
Well, I thought it was worth watching through welding glasses here in Aberdeenshire yesterday and it did get noticeable darker at maximum of around 91%. Granted, not nearly as spectacular as the real thing of which I have seen two; the first in Estevan Saskatchewan in 1979 and the second in Cornwall in 1999.
Although they are quite common worldwide they are fairly rare at any given locality, so I think that the British can be forgiven for going a wee bit overboard about yesterday’s partial eclipse.
Perhaps you need to educate yourself, TURABDIN.
You might discover that the Earth-Moon system is unique within our solar system, and as what is effectively a double planet, probably rare in the universe.
You might discover that the coincidences that mean that the Sun and Moon, viewed from Earth, are the same size and thus allow total eclipses to happen, result from an unlikely chain of low probability events.
You could ponder on the enormous tides the Moon raises on the Earth twice daily, and how the incredible diversity of environments these changes bring about might have driven life’s evolution on Earth.
You may even realise that with the Moon situated a miniscule 1.25 light seconds from Earth, humans have a handy resource with which to develop into a space travelling species. The next nearest object being several orders of magnitude more difficult to reach.