The news from Sealand, 22/6/2014
A round-up of recent UK stories you may have missed, from The Sealand Gazette.
1. New Government cuts could see a million state jobs go
“George Osborne orders ‘ambitious’ new efficiency drive, to be detailed in the Autumn Statement, for savings and job cuts deep into the next parliament.”
2. British people favour leaving the European Union, according to poll
“Nearly half would vote to leave while only 37% would vote to stay.”
3. The reason voters feel powerless: because it’s the truth
“Public services are so fragmented there are no clear lines of accountability. Parents who are worried by what is happening in a school will try to pull levers and discover that no one is at the other end. They are left to fume impotently.”
4. Trussell Trust told ‘the government might try to shut you down’
“The chair of [foodbank charity] the Trussell Trust has said that the charity made a decision to tone down its criticisms of the benefit system after someone in power warned them that they could get shut down.”
5. Britain’s first secret trial
“Two men, known only as AB and CD, have been charged with terrorism; journalists were forbidden from disclosing even this simple fact until newspapers overturned a gagging order. But for the first time in centuries – and in a direct challenge to the Magna Carta of 1215 – the entire trial will be held in secrecy.”
Vote No if this sounds like your sort of country, readers.
So instead of calling that “someone in power’s” bluff by continuing as they are, forcing the person either to back down or for the government to invite an absolute scandal by shitting down a foodbank, they decide to just let the government walk over them.
I really cannot respect the people who run foodbanks enough, but we’re ALREADY letting the government walk all over us with their legislation: we cannot afford to let them silence our criticisms.
Hopefully other banks will take up the slack. Will the government shut ALL of them down?
@Taranaich –
we cannot afford to let them silence our criticisms
There was a march in London yesterday of 50,000 people protesting against austerity but you wouldn’t know it if you get your news from the mainstream media channels. State collusion in downplaying and effectively silencing criticism.
PS wish they were shitting hedgehogs 🙂
3. The reason voters feel powerless: because it’s the truth
That is the logical end-point for a liberal democracy when all public assets and services are in private hands. The public in such a situation collectively owns and controls nothing so any democracy that exists is an empty process and assemblies containing democratically elected representatives are pointless, hot-air talking shops. A bit like Westminster in fact.
Eh? This sounds like my country now and I’ll be voting Yes to be shot of it.
People need to realize where the UK is heading, there will be no public assets left in a few years time if we are conned into voting NO. I believe this is the last chance in my lifetime that we will get to become more like one of our more successful European neighbours and i`m only 34.
The powers that be down there in Westminster have for a long time looked to the US for an economical model to recreate here. Westminster will get an even firmer grip on Scotland`s purse strings post a NO vote and they will over time make it harder if not near impossible for us to start the process of trying to leave again.
Taranaich,
I think we all know it’s game over for democracy when foodbanks are scared to state the obvious and criticise Westminster for fear of being “shut down”. Who could, with a straight face, claim now that the UK is a democracy when they’re trying to stop people from knowing how much other people are suffering?
And why are so many people happy to let a state of affairs continue where there are people who need “kettle packs” and “cold packs” let alone ordinary food parcels in one of the richest states in the world? It makes me blush and then get mad when I remember that prince William just got a helicopter for his birthday which all the people who can’t even afford to eat helped pay for.
But I thought we were promised jet packs?
Agreed, but at least there were 50,000 people protesting – they don’t have complete control over social media. Which is what makes Wings so important etc etc broken record
Yyyyyyyyup.
I have believed for a little while now that if the Tories win the general election next year, and I think they will, then the British state will be leaving the EU shortly afterwards.
I also think that the BBC will be dismantled, with public broadcasting scrapped in the UK. I think that is the reason why the BBC have not covered the demos in England against privatisation of the NHS and the marches against austerity. I think the BBC’s charter is coming up for renewal soon, and they are terrified of pissing off the current government. I think the Tories will do what they did with the NHS in England before the last general election, which is to say they will not mention what they are going to do, or offer a weasel guarantee that it is safe. I think they will give Sky a lions share of UK broadcasting rights, along with other private broadcasting companies. The BBC is one of the last public assets left in the UK. Not even the NHS in England was safe from privatisation. I now see no reason why the BBC will be safe from the neo-liberal, privatisation fetish of the British state over the last 30 years or so.
@Paula Rose,
But I thought we were promised jet packs?
On Tour right now – Dumfries on the 26th, Glasgow 27th and Dunfermline 28th June
http://wewerepromisedjetpacks.com
A middle manager in a Scottish Government funded scientific institution who happens to be Yorkshire through and through hinted strongly that a Yes vote would be not such a bad thing was emailed by their press office and warned to watch his back!
Project Fear alive and kicking!
Mutley79,
I disagree with you about the BBC. The BBC are, and have always been, the state propaganda wing of Westminster. I believe that they have been allowed a free reign when there has been no seeming “attack” against the British establishment. I think we can see how quickly that free reign is shut down when there is; the Scottish referendum is one, the troubles in Ireland was another. Then, the BBC do what they’re told.
Westminster also regularly dangle the carrot of the licence fee, or the loss thereof, in front of the BBC which makes them come into line. There is an illusion of freedom for the BBC – they’re not free in the least.
Westminster may curtail the BBC or make sure they remember what side their bread is buttered (I think they already do) but they won’t get rid of what is a wonderful propaganda tool, particular as the BBC has managed to gain such a (unfair) reputation for fairness. In the same way that they didn’t want to get rid of the BBC World service – another propaganda tool. The BBC will be kool and the gang, I’m sure of that.
Silence is the loudest fear. I cannot imagine any fear more hurtful than fearing the very people you choose to take care of you. So WTF can we do about it? Nothing while you are afraid. Everything while you are not afraid!!
It is not the govt’s responsibility to take care of us, not to come running when we need them… well not unless we tell them. We cannot bitch that they did not put out the fire in our house if we never bothered to let them know.
Our govt thinks we are children. This is because we act like children. We almost never question, seldom stand behind our intentions and would rather save our passionate selves for fitba. Govt tells us, informs us, brings us to the edge of a hole in the ground and says ‘this hole is getting bigger and if it doesn’t stop we will end up living at the bottom of this hole.’ Instead of rising up and demanding to know who is responsible, see them tried and punished, we quiver and gulp. Instead of tell govt, ‘Look, this is how we wish you to solve this problem,’ we let them tell us that they are experts at fixing such problems and keep our mouths shut. This is a hoot! They are the same bloody experts who created the problems, the holes… now they become the experts at filling them back up?
Why would it be illegal for me to put a fix on my telly which would keep BBC from reaching my telly? My telly, my home, my mind, my money? Do you know how many people are actually afraid of the BBC and the little trucks that go around with a sensor on the roof. We need to outlaw sensors now!! Who the bloody hell allowed sensors to invade our private space. GTFO. So wish to join me for some discussion, action, communication and just plain being a good citizen? We could do this together… we might even ask the good people of Greenock to work with us on this. What then? What would happen then? What could we do in the face of Boris Johnson’s water cannons? Do you think I am loonie? Is the concept of having personal and private control over what does or does not enter your home seem alien to you? Loonie?
To the vast majority of NO voters (who think they are above the austerity storm heading our way)
Think again you have more to loose than most, and they are going to take it, then it will be to late
They will keep reminding us, this is what you voted for. So stop moaning and pay up.
Don’t sell your family out, and please don’t sell my family out.
It takes a special type of swine to threaten to close a foodbank, its the type of swine who would never stand face to face with someone and tell you honestly what they think.
Instead its the type of swine who would get some minion to do his or hers dirty work for them while they snigger in a dark corner.
I hope hell has a special place for these swine, lowest of the low.
Lets ensure Scotland gets away from Westminster swine like that and votes a resounding YES Sep 18th.
Call me paranoid, but these are the sort of people we are trusting to run a straight ballot on 18th September. Just sayin’.
Davy dear – I am happy to number many Gloucester old spots, Berkshires and British lops amongst my friends, please be more thoughtful in your pejorative terms.
Stoops.
I worry about that too, as many of us do. We need a poll showing YES in the lead well before the 18th.
Stroops,
Absolutely agree! I’ve been worried about that since the referendum was called. I have no doubt they’ll try and swing this given their past record. I’m sure they’re already trying to fudge the figures on polls and even betting (always a good sign of the outcome of a vote)and that’s before you even think of the postal votes. I don’t know what we can do to ensure there’s a fair vote other than hope for a huge turnout in favour of Yes.
Paula Rose
Yup,but they’re not longpig.
Free at 63!
I’ve been hoping for the opposite! I thought if the vote took them by surprise on the day and they were sure of a no beforehand then they might not have planned to cheat! I don’t know, maybe you’re right but I doubt we’d ever know if there was an outright majority in the polls for Yes anyway. They’d keep that hush hush.
And people believe they live in a democracy! It is the greatest coup of any government when the people they are supposed to serve believe that that government would never lie to them.
@Kirsty
I disagree. If the NHS in England cannot survive being being privatised, then the BBC will almost certainly suffer the same fate. The Tories will have their eyes on the BBC. They despise the public sector, and have been privatising as many public services as possible in the last 30 years or so (with New Labour’s tacit support). The private broadcasting companies would love to get their hands on the potential broadcasting market of the UK. The Tories want to keep slashing away at the state (unless it not against the interests of their rich chums), and the BBC is the next and possibly largest target left imo (with maybe the police the last). You also assume that only the BBC would act as a propaganda vehicle for the British state. Sky for one would do the exact same thing, in return for massive profits of course…
If Salmond can be thanked for anything in the march to real democracy it’s the gift of politically astute timing.
Why don’t we all hand over our pay checks to the very rich, sit back and watch the economy tank?
I really don’t see how it is possible to subvert all the polling companies so that they produce the results Westminster wants, even when a pro-Yes group has commissioned the poll. I mean, get real.
muttley79
Agreed about the beeb.
Managers are already selling on the market before producing.Outsourced progs are now the staple rather than the exotic.
Add to that the amount of freelance within their journo pool and we see the direction of travel.
Paula Rose says
Why don’t we all hand over our pay checks to the very rich, sit back and watch the economy tank?
Don’t we do that already?
Mutley79,
Mmm, ye-es, re Sky et al. But I don’t seriously think that Westminster want to lose a great propaganda tool that has a reputation as being impartial and “the best in world”. Sky and all the others have the rep of being for profit and, in Sky’s case, run by an anti-Britisher in the form of Murdoch. Ergo, the inherent trust that the BBC has goes out the window.
I think the Tories will huff and puff and talk about cutting the BBC’s money etc. but I don’t think they’ll get rid of them. They’re just to important to their agenda.
NHS (England) is different in that it’s easily shown as an expensive monolith that serves the feckless, lazy and “foreign”. They can convince people that it needs to be streamlined, become more efficient, etc and that the private sector is the way to do that. The BBC not so much.
The other thing is, as you’ve said, Sky might do Westminster a favour in return for money or some other thing but I can’t see Westminster agreeing to have an outside body have that much control over something that is so important to their agenda. And we’re talking their agenda with wars, foreigners, health care, education, politics, protests, riots, etc., etc. A private company couldn’t be trusted to do what they wanted them to do, when they wanted them to do it. The BBC can because of funding, legislation, etc.
Lots to look forward to then with the “status quo”?
Such as a million public sector job cuts, an exit from the EU, no accountability for their actions by OUR elected government, rejection of any criticism of government by the use of threats against foodbanks FFS.
Most worrying, secret trials held behind closed doors for “security reasons”? Starts to sound like a dictatorship rather than a democracy to me.
All of this in the past 3 weeks! George Orwell was wrong but only in the title of his book, 2014 it should have been.
If Scots continue to remain as part of the UK it can only be because many have been duped by the use of the compliant media feeding propaganda who are working as tools of the state in order to help them to their ultimate goal.
No doubt your dismiss my address to you journalists and reporters as the ravings of a looney cybernat. Sorry, but in my eyes, you guys are the loonies. How you can stand by and watch this is beyond my ken.
Have you no morals? Open your fucking eyes and stop feeling sorry for yourselves.
Where are the men in the media that will step forward and say “enough is enough”. Cowards the lot of you and you make me ashamed that you may be Scots and put your own interests first rather than that of it’s people. It’s disgusting.
The UK is a failing state, get off your arse and tell the fucking truth, in all our interests. If you can’t do that at least have the decency to leave your employer. There will be work for those that do when a new media in Scotland is born. Do it now, don’t delay, you know it’s the right thing to do.
OT
Loving the prog “From Scotland with Love”.
Music by King Creosote is perfect.
Re. the BBC..still attacking the SNP and ‘Salmond’…no mention of death threats; no mention of 50,000 anti-austerity marchers; joke new programme with the ‘ubiquitous’ John British Beattie.
Start up costs of £200 million for Independence versus whaaat?….HST; Trident replacement; helicopters for all the Royals?
Let’s get out there again next Sunday and show these liars that we are not cretins or slaves! Be at Pacific Quay next Sunday and let the BBC know that the game is almost up!
How many wheels are left on the BT wagon?
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9358-labour-devo-plans-branded-a-horrible-compromise-as-splits-widen-in-no-camp
Kirsty
Your argument works on a national level.When you take into account the global dynamics of any multinational,the ability to sway the masses is generic.
Think Tony Blair and his rise to the higher echelons while being despised here.
The fact of the matter is,fame and celebrity is now more important to the oppressed than it ever was.We no longer need a state broadcaster to promote,what is now,a global agenda.
Goldenayr,
I think you’re absolutely right to an extent. But I also think that a government who has access to a body that’s seen globally, as the BBC is, as being a bastion of impartiality and good journalism (bwahahaha) is worth its weight in gold.
I think many governments would love to have a tool like the BBC at the ready. I’m also pretty certain that there will be continued efforts to police the internet to make sure that people only see and hear what governments want them to.
Also, remember that Blair was considered very highly in the UK for a long time, probably until the Iraq war. He still is in some quarters; I recently spoke to a man in Glasgow who claimed he was the greatest Prime Minister the UK had ever had!
You’re right that we no longer need a state provider, my contention is that the UK will continue to have one no matter what because it’s a great propaganda tool for them. It’s just my opinion; I can see what you’re all saying but I just can’t see that they’ll get rid of such a useful tool.
Kirsty
Now take that thought and add the prospect of SKY being a behind the scenes string puller as a minor shareholder.
Which is what we’re talking about with the demise of the beebs newsroom.
Goldenayr,
I also should have said that not that many people get their news from global sources, most people don’t even search the internet for their news. Most people I know, certainly, watch UK news and still believe that the BBC is a completely fair, impartial source that’s the envy of the world.
If you have that, why would you worry about the few percent of people who get their news from wider, more global sources? Having your propaganda beaming into people’s homes, whilst always encouraging them to distrust the “foreign” as they do, is all any government needs to do in order to get their majority. Like I said, I can’t see Westminster giving that resource up.
Goldenayr,
Sure, but we’re talking about a state controlled news broadcaster in the BBC – that means state controlled news. Again, I can’t see Westminster giving that up in favour of being in debt to a private company that could hold them by the testicles should they choose. Why would you swap total control for having to do deals and hope that the private company follows through?
“George Osborne orders ‘ambitious’ new efficiency drive” cuts 1 million public sector jobs with an average pay of say £25k per year, taking £25 to £35 billion out of the UKOK economy.
Tax cuts or debt reduction with teachers, nurses, dinner ladies all losing their jobs while CEO’s, City fat cats, Lords and Commons get ever richer. Yay for teamGB
Kirsty
What is the state?
The people in it?
or
The people who profit from it?
I’m not disparaging your view,I’m trying to encapsulate the bigger picture in an Anglo/American hegemony of spoon fed information.
SKY news Monday press review, “Tory woo the North with HS3, Manchester to Leeds” Its getting closer, Scotland. HS8, Newcastle to Carlisle, 2114!
Harriet Harman says AlicSamin great politician but he’s a rabble rousin bluffer, on Sky news there. Charming bunch.
Sorry its Tessa Jowel on Sky right now and they are very excited about HS3 now, vital for England’s cities, paid for by Scots oil.
Goldenayr,
We’re talking about state controlled news; obviously, that’s the state as in those who control it and who have something to gain from whatever they’re doing. They’re all for profit but there are different ways of profiting. We’re on the same page when you talk about spoon fed news – that’s been my entire point.
Now, if you’re in the position of being at the top of the pyramid, so to speak, and you want to control the information that people, in general, are going to get how would you do it? By taking up with a private company that are always going to expecting something in return and who might go rogue or by having a “state” broadcaster that you can control entirely? I don’t think there’s any question about it but obviously it’s just my opinion.
English newspaper headlines,
“Northern” MPs are calling for HS3 to be built. To link the Port of Liverpool on the west coast with the Port of Hull on the east coast. To link all the great cities in the “North”.
http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Calls-HS3-rail-link-Hull-Liverpool-replace/story-20787412-detail/story.html
I wonder number “HS” Scotland would get?
We have just to lie back and pay for all these rail links with our taxes, with the prospect of Scotland getting absolutely bugger all.
heedtracker
Yeah,had a family member,a no voter,(to our eternal shame)said that it was extremely good news that our taxes were paying for the “regeneration” of a post industrial area.
Mentioning Ravenscraig,Linwood,Mining communities,Shipbuilding etc would have resulted in a blank stare.
Missed this one at the time, but I do love irony. Anyone know when Jon Cruddas announced his support for Yes?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/15/jon-cruddas-ippr-report-britain
heedtracker
Hull MPs want it going from the west coast to the east coast.
No problem, just put it on my bill. FFS
And I wish they would stop calling Manchester, “Northern Britain”. or the “North”.
Harriet Harman says AlicSamin great politician but he’s a rabble rousin bluffer
If a man’s character is to be abused, say what you will, there’s nobody like an English politician to do the job well.
Kirsty
The reason I mentioned Tony Blair earlier was because I wanted to plant the image of a politician controlled by big business.
His message was not one of state,it was one of profit.Look at American broadcasting at the moment.They carry the establishments message with no rebuttal.And when I say “establishment” I don’t mean Govt.
STUC Youth Conference was today, does anyone have any update about how it went or any videos.
http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/events/scotland.cfm/id/B121D585-DB93-49B2-B84A64DDCAF9C00C
muttley79,
“I think the BBC’s charter is coming up for renewal soon, and they are terrified of pissing off the current government.”
That doesn’t make sense. Would it not be in their interests to actually expose the current government’s deeds and make it less likely to get re-elected?
I believe the truth is, UKIP TV is the propaganda arm of the British Establishment and acts as a poodle of whichever government is in power.
Like the unwritten constitution, I am sure there is an unwritten agreement to that effect.
Davy,
“I hope hell has a special place for these swine, lowest of the low.”
They ARE the lowest of the low, the British Establishment that is, not real swine.
Bastards at the BBC/BBC Scotland. I never knew there was a large march/rally in London yesterday, until I read about it on here.
Did I read somewhere that BBC staff used to get interviewed/vetted by MI5 before they were accepted for a job at the BBC.
Nothing changes. I would not be surprised if we found out that the head of MI5 is running the BBC.
Rock
I think the question you should be asking is,what is more profitable for the management?
I still don’t know, I’ll just stroke my pussy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_RZAGnFcI4
Goldenayr,
I don’t mean government when I say establishment either; I thought I’d made that clear but perhaps I didn’t. Also, I thought all politicians were controlled by big business, certainly in the UK and US. I thought that was a given these days, sadly.
I also think that you’re not talking about the BBC being disbanded anymore. I’ve bored everyone else on this thread enough already about that with my witterings so I won’t go on anymore (thanks everyone for putting up with me or scrolling past). The original point was about the BBC being got rid of; my contention is that it wouldn’t for all the reasons that I’ve slabbered on about already. So I think I’ll leave it there before we descend into a very dry, technical conversation about what is government, who runs it, who really pulls the strings, big business vs state, etc and outlive our welcome.
Stoops,
“Call me paranoid, but these are the sort of people we are trusting to run a straight ballot on 18th September. Just sayin’.”
Hardly anyone who comments on this side is trusting them. I am sure they have advanced plans for rigging the vote. Only if we vote massively for YES can we thwart them.
There is ONLY ONE WAY TO WIN get out and talk to people, you are, all of you, people full of love, care and hope for your country – meet people and share that vision with them – they are waiting to meet you.
Kirsty
Understood,apologies if you thought I was arguing with you.Articulation of thought via linguistic description has always been my downfall.
And you don’t witter.
Morag Graham Kerr,
“I really don’t see how it is possible to subvert all the polling companies so that they produce the results Westminster wants, even when a pro-Yes group has commissioned the poll. I mean, get real.”
The polling companies have no experience of a referendum like this and they are almost completely ignoring masses of people who have never voted before and whom the grassroots Yes campaign have been busy converting to Yes voters.
Also the matter of the £50,000 Westminster poll whose results have been kept secret.
I am convinced that democratically, a Yes vote is assured.
But the British Establishment, of which the Electoral Commission is an integral part, will 100% attempt to rig the democratic vote.
We must remain ultra vigilant to prevent that from happening. How we can succeed in that, I am not sure. Don’t forget that the Yes moment has been infiltrated – it would be amazing if it hadn’t been.
goldenayr,
“I think the question you should be asking is,what is more profitable for the management?”
The question is what is profitable to the vested interests in the British Establishment as a whole.
Paula Rose says
There is ONLY ONE WAY TO WIN get out and talk to people, you are, all of you, people full of love, care and hope for your country – meet people and share that vision with them – they are waiting to meet you.
At 50p a quickie,I don’t know how more appealing I can be?
Rock
I refer you to the conversation between Kirsty and I.
Paula Rose
What kind of cat do you have?
goldenayr,
“I refer you to the conversation between Kirsty and I.”
I responded to your comment referring to mine, which I think summarises your conversation:
The British Establishment will retain what is profitable to its own vested interests and discard anything which isn’t.
UKIP TV serves brilliantly as the propaganda arm of the British Establishment and will be retained.
Whichever political arm of the British Establishment is in power will make it follow its tune.
Rock
True
I think the point we are all trying to make is the beeb has always been a propaganda tool,apart from a brief dalliance with democracy in the 60s and 70s.
caz-m
Since Paula isn’t replying…
I hear Brazilian Fuengirolas are popular 🙂
Goldenayr,
No, no, I thought we were having a very interesting conversation where we, actually, kind of agreed. I did also worry that I was hi-jacking the thread though and I also don’t get a chance to ever discuss things like that in my personal life – everyone I know is strictly ‘Don’t bore me with your political guff’ so I was a bit to be having a conversation with someone who not only didn’t mind but seemed to be interested!
Och Rock, I took about 20 posts to say just what you did in one and then Goldenayr bloody goes and agrees with you! 🙂 I’m giving up trying to articulate myself. I’ll just read other people’s posts in future!
O/t if anyone’s interested Tessa Jowell just said on Sky, in the papers , that Andy Murray was with Bettertogether! If that’s so, let us all know! Good luck to you!
Kirsty
Soree
On the plus side,maybe we’ve elucidated some of the more esoteric conundrums of state manipulation.
Hmmmm…
Kirsty
Just reread my reply to you and think it could be misconstrued.
I was apologising for agreeing with Rock after only a couple of posts.
And yes,I also appreciate how you feel when it comes to being restricted in argument,discussion and especially vocabulary.
Please stop using this site like facebook or twitter. Go to these places and chat till your heart’s content and leave this blog for getting succinct discussions going – it’s way too important, with only weeks to go, we need to focus.
O/t if anyone’s interested Tessa Jowell just said on Sky, in the papers , that Andy Murray was with Bettertogether! If that’s so, let us all know! Good luck to you!
He does not have a vote, but the establishment would consider that a psychological blow to rebellious Scots. The real effect (if true) would be a psychological lift to the BT campaign as long as he did well at Wimbledon.
Tessa Jowell may just have said it without there being any such reported story. Its the sort of story that would make the headlines given the press interest since JK came out for No. It might be that he has said something to get a journalist off his back that has been interpreted as support for BT. We know how BT love celebrity endorsements given the Pope, Obama, Hillary Clinton stories.
Personally, I doubt there will be any basis to the story. He needs to focus on his game and not be distracted right now. He is a professional sportsman playing at the top of his field and will be concentrating heavily on his game.
Lots to look forward to then with the “status quo”
Or we could gamble on creating a modern democracy that is forward-looking and directly accountable to the sovereign people of Scotland. Mind now, we’d risk re-focusing Scotland’s vast wealth towards benefiting Scotland, rather than being bled away elsewhere where there are more ‘user benefits’ returned to the Treasury. We’d also risk achieving Scotland’s full potential, or at least we would give ourselves the chance to try.
N.B. Scotland will always lose out in the numbers game, if we choose to “pool and share”.. There is far more deprivation in England than in Scotland, so that will be the direction our taxes will disappear in. All the while, Scotland will be helping to improve England’s competitiveness, through part-funding projects such as HS2.
Please vote Yes, as we desperately need a written constitution to support the rule of law and protect our civil liberties. It’s really not such a mad gamble when you look at the alternative. 🙂
Caz-m
Pi
Lots to look forward to then with the “status quo”
Or we could gamble on creating a modern democracy that is forward-looking and directly accountable to the sovereign people of Scotland. Mind now, we’d risk re-focusing Scotland’s vast wealth towards benefiting Scotland, rather than being bled away elsewhere where there are more ‘user benefits’ returned to the Treasury. We’d also risk achieving Scotland’s full potential, or at least we would give ourselves the chance to try.
N.B. Scotland will always lose out in the numbers game, if we choose to “pool and share”.. There is far more deprivation in England than in Scotland, so that will be the direction our taxes will disappear in. All the while, Scotland will be helping to improve England’s competitiveness, through part-funding projects such as HS2.
Please vote Yes, as we desperately need a written constitution to support the rule of law and protect our civil liberties. It’s really not such a mad gamble when you look at the alternative.
no report from the bbc on the mass canvas by ric
no report about the anti cuts demo either
how was skys or STV/ITV’s report?
privatising the bbc would not remove the control, indeed, it would only legitimise the bbc bias
Talking of the BBC, I see they have announced Scotland’s biggest debate. It will take place on the 11 Sept in Glasgow’s Hydro centre. It will have 12,000 attending with school children included and speakers from both Yes and No taking part.
Will be interesting to see how this develops over the next few weeks.
Correction to above. BBC debate is for 1st time voters. All schools in Scotland will get invited to send representatives to attend.
Schroedinger’s Cat
Left a message for you on previous thread. At the end.
Thanks
BtP
@Taranaich
Yet if you read the whole article you will see that was their response then. As a result of the pressure the board divested themselves of all government funding enabling them to continue to be outspoken.
So their response was not craven and was in fact the right one as well as being the responsible one. I think they have handled this well and sensibly and do not deserve your criticism.
The UK government however deserves both barrels. Turn your fire on the appropriate place.
IMHO it’s pretty obvious when A.Murray thinks about the indy ref, there was an interview after a Davis cup match where he said something along the lines of “I’m happy to see more saltires in the crowd than union jacks for once” (my paraphrasing). Could be nothing of course but as he’s stoutly stayed out of stating his position, I take that as he doesn’t want to rock the boat of his biggest group of fans… I wonder what he could possibly say that would turn off fans from down south supporting him (for the most part).
Sorry for the O.t ramble!
Gideon Osborne on BBC breakfast there selling HS4? Manchester/Leeds but asked why Scotchland’s not getting one because we’re bettertogether? no
Then another vote no conman cum academic says
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/22/scotland-vote-no-fax-democracy-alex-salmond-independence-westminster?commentpage=2
lashings of teamGB vote no power while they pull and share our resources to make England’s trains run even faster.
Slightly O/T but worth commenting. According to the author of this piece there are positive arguments for the union which have not been made…funnily enough the author hasn’t made them either.
http://euobserver.com/political/124684
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27969885 BBC UK high speed rail excitement for the “North”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/ no HS rail mention but some super rich bloke from Surrey’s got a tennis match today.
heedtracker
What happened to HS3, it was there last night.
HS1, HS2, HS3, HS4, The English are good at spending Scotland’s money.
O/T but lookie here newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9360-lse-professor-applauds-streamlined-government-structure-for-independent-scotland
The Scots have absolutely NO say in any of these new HS rail projects.
They will cost over £100Billion to build, yet, will be of no benefit to Scotland.
We do have one important input, we help to pay for them.
Know your place Scotland, you drill, we spend, OK.
second go I WILL get this right eventually
//newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9360-lse-professor-applauds-streamlined-government-structure-for-independent-scotland
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9360-lse-professor-applauds-streamlined-government-structure-for-independent-scotland
Rock, I agree that there are likely to be systematic errors in the referendum polls that bias to No. I don’t see, however, how it’s possible to subvert them deliberately. If Yes was well ahead, it would show up. If Yes does pull well ahead, I don’t see how it would be possible to prevent the polls showing it.
Bear in mind that there are areas of the country which are showing a fairly hefty No lead. I fear people in the pro-Yes areas are letting themselves become complacent and broadcasting a false sense of security.
Once the bunting for the next olympic/jubilee/war commemoration/best of British bake off has been put back in the cupboard till next time, this is what we’re left with. A state that is style over substance. I like a good party and civic get together as much as the next bod, who doesn’t? But the day after is what’s important. The day after is what you live with every day and the examples ATL are the day after a no vote.
They are examples of our political everyday reality. Decisions were made in our name over decades which resulted in awful economic catastrophe affecting millions. The same people and systems which made those decisions are the ones enacting draconian measures to clean up the mess they helped create in the first place. We’re demonstrably NOT all in it together and the system of government which brought us to this ‘reality’ will not change. When government won’t change to meet the needs of the electorate, then the electorate must change the system of government to meet their needs.
Scotland has a special place on the list ( HS 1/2/3/4) we’re
T-1, Total Horse Shit. Vote YES an its Derailed.
If motorways are anything to go by it will be the HS74 to Scotland.
@caz-m says: , “We have just to lie back and pay for all these rail links with our taxes, with the prospect of Scotland getting absolutely bugger all.
I’m old enough to have driven from the broad multi-lane M6 at Gretna onto the narrow, accident prone A74 that remained so for many years.
I watched the construction of the, laughingly named, M90 north of the Forth. I live in Kelty where this, “wonderful Motorway”, was hardly even up to decent dual carriageway standards. It did not even originally have hard shoulders. Not only that but they passed Kelty in a cutting that cut through 5 natural water courses and made no special drainage provisions.
They subsequently installed a deep drain under the central reservation and rubble drains on either side that are now under the later constructed hard shoulders. Not to mention that these roads were not classed as parts of the normal road system and, like the road bridge itself, were an extra charge upon the Scottish economy.
I remember too the old A9 and the Highland network of single track roads. Not to mention the killer A1 and the A8.
There is nothing whatsoever new about the Westminster neglect of Scottish infrastructure and let’s be quite clear as to the obvious cause of this long running neglect. The stranglehold of the Labour Party in Scotland throughout most of my almost octogenarian lifespan. Proof, if needed, is that their stranglehold remains still strong and is centred upon the very worst areas of deprivation, ill-health and shorter lifespans in Scotland.
O/T
Just a reminder as fund raiser is slowing up.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wee-ginger-care-needs/
If Manchester is “The North”, then what do you call places that is north of Manchester?
The Tories giving people of the “North” more bullshit, so that can start Fracking in their back gardens.
Beware of Tories offering gifts!
Robert
Was the A74 not dubbed the deadliest road in Europe at one time?
Scotland should at least be dual carriageway all the way up the east AND west coast.
@Kirsty says: “Rock, I took about 20 posts to say just what you did in one and then Goldenayr bloody goes and agrees with you! I’m giving up trying to articulate myself. I’ll just read other people’s posts in future!”
Don’t you dare, Kirsty, nane o that gawn in the huff stuff oan here. Div ye want the Wings Special Ops squad sent roond tae yer hoose?
The corolary is vote Yes for:
1 – all new jobs in the state sector and a decline of jobs in the productive economy.
2 – no independence referendum on the EU, because the SNP don’t believe in either independence or referendums
3 – more bureaucracy than in rUK and less personal power
4 – even more government funded fakecharities lying to us to promote the ruling party’s political agenda (Scotland already has more per capita and, as with Yasmina Sheik’s benevilnet fund, it is even more blatantly party propagandist.
5 – unlimited immigration makes it easier for Islamic terrorists
–
Dountless this will be disputed in the normal manner seen here – Yah boo and fact free.
Neil Craig
Read your post and even visited your site.
Now,talking of fact free….
And a fair few as yet untouched old parts of the rail network badly need reopened too. Westminster has been neglecting and asset stripping Scotland’s infrastructure since 1950. In the case of BR, with connivance from some of it’s Scottish Region apparatchiks who were known in some circles as ‘The Closerati’.
@Morag
at 09:08am
I agree some folk are getting a bit overconfident. My local Yes group has been out canvassing and admittedly not as big a sample as you would like but locally Yes are polling at 30%. Some of us have a job on our hands. 🙁
Ha Ha your shift started again already Neil?
Do Not Feed The Troll!!!
Neil. What do you even hope to achieve on this site? Do you seek to turn us all into negative, miserable naysayers who see nothing but threats in the world and spend there time ringed with barbed wire shouting warnings?
FFS man, show some vision!
Well said David Smith
And “vision” is the key word for an Independent Scotland.
We don’t want people who think it is going to be too tough a job for them.
We want enthusiastic people full of new ideas.
Professor Dunleavy of the LSE.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9360-lse-professor-applauds-streamlined-government-structure-for-independent-scotland
Setting the record straight as it were. 🙂
Steven Paton’s weekly Indy news roundup inc. a mention of Wings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5npKb7LXVU&feature=youtu.be
The way to to defeat terrorists is resist the imperial ego trip and not kill their relatives.It is particularly effective in defeating terrorists to not kill their women and bairns.
Just sayin.
Mind over matter:
The establishment do not mind what happens to Scotland so long as they control it and we stay docile and obedient.
The people of Scotland don’t matter to the establishment we are just some natives who are cluttering up their country estates and holiday homes. Just like the natives in colonial India, and the great white father who protects them, while robbing them blind.
@Morag says: “I don’t see, however, how it’s possible to subvert them deliberately”
It works like this, Morag. The pollsters have to contact the people they poll. Some do so from a retrained list of subscribed, (and even sometimes paid), respondants. Obviously these are quite easy to manipulate after their political stance is known.
Other companies must use some form of communications and this is mostly by land-line phones. Now ask yourself this simple question. What section of the United Kingdom population is LESS likely to have a land-line phone?
My experiance is that the poorest folks use pay-as-you-go mobiles and the very poorest of the poor don’t have a home to have a land line to connect to. Furthermore, the stop and ask in the street pollsters ignore the poorest and roughest looking passers by like they have the plague.
Rock says:
Call me paranoid, but these are the sort of people we are trusting to run a straight ballot on 18th September. Just sayin’.
I am not a medic but Rock does not sound paranoid to me. If Rock is paranoid I might be paranoid too.
I hope that “Yes” have plans, unofficial and/or official, to check on the Ballot. Even though a perfect check on a secret poll will be impossible, a rough check will be possible if an unofficial exit poll of as many polling stations as possible can be organised by either “Yes” or some other body.
Tom
O/t
The Tories in Europe are now in partnership with a Flemish national party which advocates independence from Belgium and supports the Scottish Yes campaign.
It’s amazing what Davie will do when he thinks no one is looking.
@Tom
It would be helpful if officials of both YES/NO made their own seals and affixed them to ballot boxes immediately after closing. I am uncertain if this would be allowed though ?
Famous15 at 10.52
Exactly
@Morag Graham Kerr
“I really don’t see how it is possible to subvert all the polling companies so that they produce the results Westminster wants, even when a pro-Yes group has commissioned the poll. I mean, get real.”
Once upon a time I was asked my political opinions by Panelbase, Ipsos and YouGov.
Lesley getting more frustrated at the beeb.
https://archive.today/neP8l
Coming up at 12.00pm 12noonUK interview from Paris with Dr Mark…
http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/3125335
@caz-m says: “Was the A74 not dubbed the deadliest road in Europe at one time?”.
Yes it was, as were in turn the A9, A1, A8 and A82
“Scotland should at least be dual carriageway all the way up the east AND west coast”.
Not to mention better cross-country intercity links. I note a recent spate of traffic deaths in and around Aberdeenshire. Often described as single-vehicle accidents.
Then there is the very poor rail-link network and the communication blackspots. If ever a country needed out of an unequal political union it is Scotland that heads the list.
May I say Bravo to Robert Peffers, not quite reached the age you have attained but my personal bug bear is the state of Scotland’s infrastructure. We are only now after seven years of a proper Scottish Government seeing what could be done. Given the reins of power we could at least have a more or less joined up country. We could have railways worth a damn, we could have people living in the country who are not worried they cannot reach the nearest hospital or Doctor. Norway have done it, they have connections through out, which means people can get about, and think how much good that would do for our Tourist Industry.
May I add that we have just removed a load of NAW signs along Masterton Road, Dunfermline this morning, if they have money to burn, let them put more up, we are up for a challenge. Must have been some Labour Cooncillor, cause we know they have nay grassroots.
@kendomacaroon bar
@Tom
From Electoral Commission website page 11
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/142006/Polling-station-handbook-SLG.pdf
“Sealing the ballot box The Presiding Officer should close and seal the ballot box a few minutes before 7am, after having shown to all present that it is empty. In the event
that more than one ballot box has been issued to the Presiding Officer (because of the number of ballot papers likely to be issued), each ballot box must be sealed before polling commences.However, only one ballot box should be in use at any one time, and additional boxes should be stored securely out of sight until they are required. Make sure that the ballot box is properly secured. At this stage, candidates, election agents or polling agents must not be allowed to affix their seals to the ballot box: their seals may only be attached at the close of poll. ”
Yes and No are allowed to be present and affix their own seals, but given the number of ballt boxes, it would be a huge task.
“Doubtless this will be disputed in the normal manner seen here – Yah boo and fact free.”
Right again. 🙂
Why UKIPs plans of leaving the EU would be a bad idea for the UK and business
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-or-fixit-the-economic-consequences-of-leaving-the-european-union/
@ Neil Craig
“Dountless this will be disputed in the normal manner seen here – Yah boo and fact free.”
Can you supply detailed evidence to back up your claims using where necessary links to independent and substantiated research by experts.
I have no problems in you having your opinion and voicing it but if you are going to list a set of claims i would very much like to see your reasoning for them.
For instance, its agreed that the current UK political system is a bloated and inefficient entity, how can you justify saying a new streamlined system starting from scratch after independence would be more bureaucratic as well as saying there would be less personal power when you consider that we, at present, have absolutely no say in who governs us from a UK perspective?
I look forward to seeing your in depth evidence backed answers.
Soda says:
@ Neil Craig
Delusional paranoia does not allow for rational reasoning of an argument.The sufferer will consistently refer to their own deep seated fears of persecution as justification for their stance.
Helena Brown
“May I add that we have just removed a load of NAW signs along Masterton Road, Dunfermline this morning”.
Roger, agent Brown, well done there, keep up the good work old chap/chapette,
over and out.
@No no no…Yes says: “From Electoral Commission website page 11
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/142006/Polling-station-handbook-SLG.pdf“
Now there’s a thing – anyone know if the mysterious missing Glenrothes Election Ballot Boxes have ever turned up again?
Robert, I know there are sources of systematic bias that favour a No majority. You just described some of them. That’s very different from deliberate skewing of the result to get a desired outcome.
I repeat, I don’t see how deliberate, systematic manipulation is possible, or how it would be possible to make a substantial Yes majority look like a narrow No majority. Not over several different polling companies working for several different clients.
In my opinion, the pronouncements that “polls will never be allowed to show Yes ahead” that we see on here are wild conspiracy theory. Far better to accept that Yes is not ahead once the results from places like the Borders are factored in, and work harder.
Well of course I can Soda.
Pointing to Stuart’s #1 alone shows he is offering, as an alternative to UK policy, comparatively more state jobs, which do not create wealth, and which, by definition, must be paid for out of the productive economy, which is thereby diminished.
Nobody has disputed Stuart’s position (well apart from me).
The other points are equally obviously true – as proven by the fact that nobody, not even you, have tried.
As a former Langtonian born and bred, proud that my fellow toonies are getting their tattoos for Yes. Take a peek here on this link
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/video-support-for-inkdependence-yes-scotland-tattoos-prove-popular-in-fife-1.436304
Neil
What are you on about?
UKIP are increasingly left-wing.
Farage says centre-tight economics was very bad for the UK while UKIP voters want a big programme of state job creation through re-nationalisation. Higher taxes for the wealthy too.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/farage-tries-shed-his-thatcherite-skin
most of Ukip’s supporters favour an expanded state and higher public spending. Polling by YouGov shows that 78 per cent support the nationalisation of the energy companies and 73 per cent back the renationalisation of the railways. Rather than a “code of conduct” for employers (as promised by Farage), 57 per cent simply want zero-hours contracts to be banned. Rather than a 40p top tax rate, the same number support the reintroduction of the 50p rate.
Add in that UKIP advocate Scotland having a completely open border facilitating mass immigration, the picture is one of them being all over the place.
BBC? Do we not all know that a free press is essential to democracy? Of course we do. If the press is not fit for purpose because it serves the needs of tyranny or greed, turn it off… stop buying it! For my money the best press is right here on the net… I go through maybe 50 or 100 releases (some are slanted for sure) in a day. If I begin to smell a rat, I tell them so and click they are gone.
This BBC (which of course had prized beginnings) is but a shadow of itself. Yet we continue to pay for it. My head is shaking. lol
Their initial response was in 2005: this latest action was taken just recently. Unless I’ve misread the article (which is possible, I can be a bear of very small brain at times) it seems that this divestment of government funding allowed them to be critical of the government up to this point in time, with the threat of closure overcoming even that.
Nonetheless, I’d like to make it clear that the ultimate target of my criticism is always against the UK government for the sheer audacity of actions such as this. What’s most worrying is that this threat of closure seems like an overture to something much bigger – like the shutting down of all food banks.
Case in point, who would’ve thought we would see a bill that will bring back national service (i.e. conscription) in the 21st freaking century? If they’re honestly trying to put through a bill that is not only deeply immoral, but counterproductive – conscripts are terrible soldiers – and costly, what else are they capable of? Secret trials – done. Extradition – done. Curtailing free speech – working on it.
Oh, but SALMOND wants to silence people at the fitba’, cannae trust HIM to run a country…
Folks, ignore Neil Craig.
He is a self stated UKIP supporter who clearly does not realise that Scottish independence from the UK is essentially the pared down version of what his party scream about; ie, removing the UK from the unrepresentative European Union.
What he doesn’t seem to get is that we are looking to remove Scotland from the unrepresentative UK to the point where, something he doesn’t mention, Scotland will actually get more MEP’s so his fetid little party will get a chance of more seats in Scotland.
But ignore him, because like most unionists who find themselves posting unsubstantiated ‘facts’ he isn’t here to be convinced of anything. He thinks he knows it all already.
@ No no no…Yes
You said to kendomacaroon bar and I:
Yes and No are allowed to be present and affix their own seals, but given the number of ballot boxes, it would be a huge task.
There are not many from each polling station though. Previously in local elections when officiating at a polling station and at the Counting Centre, I confess to having been a little slack at times over this matter. With something as important as the IndyRef it needs to be done properly by our volunteers.
That is the least that needs to be done though. As I was saying earlier an additional safeguard would be to organise a nationwide exit poll. If organisations like the BBC can be “got at” by “No” then we should leave nothing to chance. Some Labour councils are preventing referendum literature from going into their educational institutions. What else will they try?
Tom
goldenayr & Kirsty,
We might be articulating it in different ways but we are on the same wavelength!
We are in favour of YES.
UKIP TV is in favour of NO, and is and always has been the propaganda arm of the British Establishment.
In this referendum, UKIP TV is the defacto leader of the No campaign.
All the lies and dishonesty of the No campaign start with and end at UKIP TV’s doorstep.
Morag & Robert Peffers,
“I don’t see, however, how it’s possible to subvert them deliberately”
“Furthermore, the stop and ask in the street pollsters ignore the poorest and roughest looking passers by like they have the plague.”
Not to forget the loaded questions they ask before the referendum question, which itself is distorted. Even if the polling companies do the polling, they follow their paymasters’ instructions in framing the questions. Remember, a poll can get the desired result by framing the questions accordingly.
We must absolutely not be complacent – we won’t get this chance in another 300 years – but the polls are deliberately showing a substantial No lead SO THAT THE ACTUAL RESULT CAN BE RIGGED (see next post).
Tom Platt,
“I am not a medic but Rock does not sound paranoid to me. If Rock is paranoid I might be paranoid too.”
We are paranoid, but rightly so.
Does the British Establishment want a No vote? Yes
Will it stoop to absolutely anything to try and get it? Yes
Proof:
The subversion and repression of democracy and freedom in every single country it has ever had anything to do with.
Why do all the yes voters swallow the SNP line every time?
50% of the UK want independence from the United States of Europe project – what is the big surprise?
What makes no sense what-so-ever is the SNP double-think of taking back power from Westminster only to hand it over to Brussels.
The SNP line that a YES vote is for Independence is a blatant “bate and switch” policy. There is no “Independence” in the Europe project. It is not a trade organisation… it is a project to have a federal Europe of regions – just look at Greece and Spain. Do you think the people feel sovereign anymore?
Have any of you bothered to actually read the much vaunted written SNP constitution? I never really believed that MI5 had penetrated the SNP until I read it.
Every line after the glorious acclamation that the people are sovereign takes power AWAY from the people.
When it comes to the United States of Europe Brussels Laws trump Scots Law. Yeh , I say that again if the Scottish Parliament pass and ACT of Parliament and it contradicts Brussels their law takes precedence (just look at the block they put on our pricing of alcohol to protect our people).
So the unelected commissioners can just push our Parliament aside – now written in black and white least we forget? That is scary now that we know that child euthanasia has just been legalised in Brussels.
The glaring admission is the right of the Scottish People to coin money (unlike the USA and Switzerland). This means the Scottish people will still be under the heel of the British Empire Casino Banking system of debt slaves and bail-ins…borrowing every time from private banks who will cream in the interest.
The SNP what to keep the Bank of England as an asset… they presided over the whole bailout / austerity debacle and have increased the money supply by 1000% since 2007.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/484725/Just-how-much-money-has-the-Bank-of-England-printed-Explained-with-DRIFTWOOD
What an asset! and to take the biscuit we have to take on UK debt for the privilege of having the BOE! What colour is the sky in planet SNP?
The ECB are now on their way to do even more:
http://www.larouchepac.com/node/31122
Vote YES, but know that it is not “Independence” and that this SNP written Constitution is a pig-in-a-poke. Wake up and plan for the 19th Sept.