The human sacrifices
We don’t normally like to devote much time on Wings to things that have been more than adequately covered elsewhere in the media, which is why you haven’t read much here about eg the Internal Market Bill. Unlike some we don’t see much point spending our limited human resources telling people stuff they already know and agree with.
But we’re going to make an exception for this next thing, which was already covered pretty well by Susan Dalgety in last week’s Scotsman, because (a) a lot of our readers, quite reasonably, will have an instinctively adverse reaction to either anything printed in the Scotsman or anything written by Susan Dalgety, and (b) a number of people have asked us to amplify this issue because it’s so important and so awful.
A bill is currently making its way through the Scottish Parliament which will enable people who have been raped – the overwhelming majority of whom are women – to access a forensic medical examination before going to the police. This is clearly a very good thing, because the thought of having such an examination conducted in a police station puts a lot of victims off reporting the crime.
The Health and Sport Committee guiding the bill through the legislative process, heard – including from one of the Scottish Government’s own pet organisations, Rape Crisis Scotland – that the single most important concern of women who’d been raped was access to a female doctor to conduct the examination.
However, the draft bill only sought to allow victims to specify the “gender” of the doctor, not the sex, which the Committee agreed was problematically ambiguous. It therefore recommended that the wording of the bill be changed to say “sex”.
But the Scottish Government is refusing to make the change, because trans feelz.
It is beyond any reasonable doubt that the failure to do so will lead to more victims declining to report being raped for fear of suffering a second trauma in having such an intimate examination at such a stressful time conducted by a male. Yet the Scottish Government is so obsessed with “diversity” and “inclusion” that it won’t even listen to its own committee or its own quangos.
Johann Lamont – someone else Wings readers will entirely understandably have very little inclination to listen to, another reason we’ve been asked to deliver the message to our own audience – has proposed a six-word amendment when the bill goes before Parliament this Thursday: “for the word ‘gender’ substitute ‘sex’”. SNP MSPs are currently expected to vote against the amendment, all but ensuring its failure.
If they do so, in this site’s opinion it will be the most disgraceful and shameful act in the Scottish Parliament’s history since devolution in 1999.
The weasel-worded response on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Health seeks to reassure women that Equality Act exemptions on the employment of trans people in such sensitive roles will still apply. But if that’s the case then there can be no possible harm in the amendment, which will only serve as a solid guarantee for what we’re told is the intent anyway, and remove (particularly) women’s fears about reporting this dreadful and under-prosecuted crime.
We ask readers to contact their MSPs and demand that they support the amendment. To fail to do so will be to fail people who’ve just suffered one of the worst experiences imaginable, all for a few woke points. Faith in politics is already at an all-time low. Let’s all do whatever we can to try to avoid it plumbing appalling new depths.
This SNP Scotgov surely doesn’t want people to up sticks and live in Scotland?
To deny women the right to safety in every way possible is a disgrace.
Hell mend the lot of them, including the sheep at Holyrood who keep their mouths shut and follow the leader.
Absolutely zero respect for them.
It’s a truly disturbing case and Johann Lamont”s amendment would give clarity and much needed reassurance to victims of sexual violence. Personally I would be extremely upset to be intimately examined by a man claiming to be a woman. For a start he is a man, and second I would suspect his motives.
They really don’t want to give up this nonsense do they ?
Guess therefore what they will do if voted back in this coming May with a majority ?
They are playing us.
These are the same people who wanted Alex Salmond jailed for sexual assualt because he touched a woman’s arm through her clothing in a pub ten years ago… or maybe it was eleven, she can’t actually remember.
How did such a bunch of deranged perverts manage to hijack the entire SNP and its leadership?
Already done and thanks for highlighting this concern.
To: Ruth Davidson, msp
Jeremy Balfour, msp
Sarah Boyack, msp
Miles Briggs, msp
Neil Findlay, msp
Alison Johnstone, msp
Gordon Lindhurst, msp
Andy Wightman, msp
Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) (Scotland) Bill
Johann Lamont’s proposed amendment to the above Bill
“Para 28. In the schedule, page 13, line 4, at end insert—
”
Women and girls are raped, murdered and trafficked because of their sex, not their gender. Sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. A woman is an adult human female.
Females undergoing a forensic medical examination can request a female examiner. Under the present wording of the above Bill this may be a male who identifies as a gendered woman, not a female. Women should have the right, especially, but not exclusively, under the distressing circumstances of sexual trauma, to be examined by a biological female, not a ‘legal’ woman (a certified trans woman) and not a self-identified one.
I would therefore ask that you vote in favour of Johann Lamont’s amendment. It matters greatly.
Thank you.
Have the Scottish Government set up the possibility of having a woman go for a forensic examination, to have a transwoman come to perform the examination, for the woman refuse to be examined on the basis of the doctor being trans, and then for the transwoman to be able to pursue the woman through the hate crime bill? (Apologies for the many commas)
“All rights – those of women and trans people – must be protected.
Trans women don’t currently have the right to medically examine a woman if that woman doesn’t want it. So why is the Scottish Govt going to these lengths to protect this imaginary right. What the Scottish Govt are trying to do is create a right where currently none exists.
STOP TRYING TO PROTECT RIGHTS THAT DON’T EXIST, NICOLA.
Hope your reading this Michael Russell.
This is another reason for getting rid of Sturgeon and her foul coterie of Wokes.
The careless drafting with the word “ gender “ in lieu of “ sex” could have been just that, careless ambiguous wording.
But the refusal to correct it brings into sharp focus what was really intended and how deeply ingrained the trans influence is in Sturgeon’s Government. Well as the NEC elections showed the game is up for the trans micro minority. Ordinary folks want their sanity back, wantvwomen protected.
Sturgeon has to go, this ambiguous wording has to go, and woe betide any MSP who stands against the tide of public opinion.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”- C. S. Lewis
You can write to your MSP here:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com
You’ll be able to contact all your list MSPs at once, you don’t need to write lots of emails.
And tell them you won’t vote for anyone in May who votes in favour of this crap, tell them when it comes to traumatised rape victims their needs come before hurting the feelings of trans people every time and there’s no way you’ll vote for anyone who doesn’t understand this.
If that bastard Sturgeon gets her evil way, would it be illegal NOT to allow a transgender medical officer from examining a r*pe case victim???
My hatred for Sturgeon grows by the day.
Let’s hope the new members of the NEC are frantically working on the best way of removing that evil little fraudster Sturgeon before the May 2021 Holyrood election.
Aye nae pont in me contacting my MSP it’s blinkin Dornan, oh and to add to the misery our MP is Stewart McDonald BUT moving to Dennistoun soon so change in both of course, hmmm, at least the MSP there SHOULD support the Lamont proposal going by his record,I will watch what he does with interest, the MP aye well she’s a waste of utter space, personally was nae best pleased when Paul Sweeney lost seems like a decnet sort.
I’ve written to my MSP Iain Gray. I don’t know what he thinks of Ms Lamont’s amendment but I think I can guess. I’m utterly scunnered by this shite. SNP can kiss my arse if they think I’ll vote for them in May if the bill goes through with the gender line intact.
We have ‘positive’ discrimination when it comes to getting more women into politics…So it’s ironic that they want to take choices away from women when it comes to this.
As a lawyer, might I offer my suggestion?
“…may specify the gender or sex of…”
Fixed, and very difficult to argue against one would hope.
Stuart MacKay @12.21pm
An excellent and not particularly well known quote, and applicable to not only the case in point but to another current event.
Another better known quote, or more accurately proverb is “Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad”
The “Gods” must really have it in for us just now!
I guess it’s probably not really worth wasting my time contacting my MSP – The Invisible Woman
Maybe it’s time for the ” NUCLER ” option , bring down the whole rancid edifice the is The SNP Government , The ones in charge obviously are not listening so it’s time we made them.
Sovereignty cannot be removed it’s ours and can’t be bought or traded away it doesn’t matter when we excercise this right and definitely it’s not constrained by any Westminster government the Holyrood parliament is a construct of the English Parliament to confuse the Scottish people if it can’t carry out the wishes of the people it’s a total illusion a gift that can be withdrawn any time.
This section 30 or whatever it’s called today is a diversion, and a diversion used by the SNP along with this Pandemic to continue to hold back and not do what they should be doing , we don’t want competent administration of English dictates and having to ask for permission about anything.
As many have said if they are unwilling or not capable of following simple directions get out of the Ducking Way and stop bloody lying to people , The SNP can’t change the electorate but we can certainly change them , every bleedn one of them it might take time but it will happen.
@Andrew F,
Good suggestion Andrew.
@Robert Graham
Our sovereignty was traded away many years ago by people who did not own it. Now the SNP are too frightened to try to reclaim it
It is revealing of the mindset at work here that the oft utilised argument about the feelings and perceptions of victims only operates one way in cases where rights of different groups come into conflict.
Strongly indicating that a hierarchy of victim hood and oppression is being practiced by those setting such policies.
Sex and Gender is not the only area in which such a hierarchy is operating. It cannot have escaped notice that such a hierarchy is also operational when it comes to racism – with, in practice, some forms of racism being considered more racist than others.
The levels and depth of Gaslighting taking place never seems to stand still in terms of pushing the boundaries in ever more extreme directions.
As a result, on the present trajectory, it does not seem at all fanciful that even those of us who have long inhabited Last of the Summer Wine territory will live to see the slogan Transhuman Rights are Trans Rights.
“Aye nae pont in me contacting my MSP it’s blinkin Dornan, oh and to add to the misery our MP is Stewart McDonald”
Remember you have several regional MSPs too.
PS: By pushing for one term over the other they are admitting there is a difference between the two.
So giving victims a choice is logical.
If these parties were available in the May election on the list who would you give your second vote to.
Green
7.5%
ISP
38.2%
AFI
1.1%
Salmond led party
53.2%
Just saw this poll on twitter, it tells me that if Alex Salmond were to lead the ISP we could have ourselves a real contender for the SNP, I’m at the stage now where I wouldn’t be to worried to see them lose the election altogether, the SNP that I have supported all my adult life no longer exists.
Please remember you have EIGHT MSPs. Write to them all. Easily done via TheyWorkForYou.
I sent an email to all my MSPs at the weekend. All bar the Greens, as I didn’t see much point. It’s only Monday, so I don’t expect anything today, but I certainly hope to hear from them soon. Especially my constituency MSP who is SNP. That will be the most interesting response.
One thing in our favour, is that Sturgeon can no longer brazenly strut about Holyrood, going from meeting to meeting, telling EVERYONE this is how it is going to be, with the confidence her NEC had her back.
That cover has now gone, she has lost the NEC.
For the good of the Yes Movement, we can at least look forward to a more isolated and deluded First Minister rowing back on some of her more outrageous policies.
Why was this legislation framed in this way in the first place, because, had it been worded with a modicum of respect for natal women, no amendment would be necessary? Well done, Joanne Lamont. I may not agree with your politics, but, on this issue, I certainly do. I think this shows that, at the very end of the day, it is women and their rights that come last in every consideration. For example, you can be black, but still be raped as a woman; you can be Jewish and still be raped as a woman. It is the being a woman that is the end of the line on intersectionality, and it is being female that is the driving force behind this ill-treatment. Trans people are, the evidence suggests, ill-treated for being trans, not for being women in the sense of being women as a sex.
As a young woman, when rape laws reflected (they still do to an extent) the societal myths, and having sat through a couple of rape trials, I swore that, no matter how hurt I was, I would never report rape. The stigma and the treatment of women at the hands of the authorities was barbaric. Now, it seems, at the behest of men who want to be women, we are back on square one. I could weep, but it would do no good at all.
The only thing we can do is to deconstruct the trans ideology and strip it down to its bare essentials in order to fight it. We need to start asking searing and searching questions. Trans people have always existed, and, in the 1970s some were able to physically transition. They have lived their lives peacefully and, one would hope, happily. Self-ID raised its head and the trans lobby started demanding all kinds of concessions that were never meant to exist in the basic human rights legislation, as well as trying to drive a coach and horses through existing legislation which was protecting women and their safe spaces and rights. All comers are now under the trans umbrella and claiming they are women – not like women, not feeling as if they are like women, not wishing they were women, but ARE women.
It is insanity, and some of our elected representatives seem to think that insanity is a good driver of politics. They should never have been allowed near power because they are unfit to wield it in the public interest, going far beyond what the human rights legislation for trans people ever envisaged. That many children and young people have been captured by this ideology makes their collusion even more damning.
Thank you, Rev Stuart Campbell, for once again covering this area.
The weasel words from government and their stated aim of protection of (non-existent in this respect) ‘trans rights’ – on an equal footing it seems with the essential and actual legal human rights of women, girls, and children – is especially telling.
I know Kate Forbes is not woke.
Up until last week I rested easy in the knowledge that I could vote SNP next May with a clear conscience. Now my confidence is shaky. I emailed all Highland MSPs last week and have had no response from any of them so far.
Sadly, if Kate votes against this amendment then May 2021 will be the first time I have spoilt a ballot paper in 47 years of voting.
My MSP basically wrote the guidebook on gender woo-woo policies – none other than serial bench warmer & Shirley Ann-Sommerville. Yep, the same one apparently responsible for the welfare of old people, many of whom were transferred from hospitals only to die soon after from Covid-19 either contracted in hospital or in the poorly protected care home. Yep, that one.
https://blogs.gov.scot/fairer-scotland/2019/12/17/gra-consultation/
I’m betting she won’t even read my letter so it’s a waste of time since her office junior, gatekeeper-in-charge, simply rebuts all the other ones I’ve sent this year.
I would like to ask my MSPs to support the Lamont amendment or to put forward a further amendment in line with the @Andrew F suggestion at 12:35pm. I’d appreciate some help with the proper format.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
7 December, 2020 at 12:53 pm
“Aye nae pont in me contacting my MSP it’s blinkin Dornan, oh and to add to the misery our MP is Stewart McDonald”
Remember you have several regional MSPs too.
Yes but they are Tory and Labour (well an blinkin green lad Harvie) so I just assumed they will be voting in favour of the Lamont proposal, of course she’s one of the Glasgow list MSPS, aye funnily enough Adam Tomkins lives round the corner, we use the same wee shop, it’s funny they pass on his gossip, nae very interesting mind.
Brexit, austerity and the #GenderAgenda are the *same* precedented, emotional-behavioural driving, ideological divide and rule concoction.
‘In doing so they – #ToryAnalytica and their media platforms – collectively flood the field of political ‘discourse’ keeping it within safe parameters to prevent genuine opposing, high-profile centre-left voices from venturing outside their pyrrhic comfort-zone ‘safety’ of the herd; being sub/consciously steered as they are by their own individual and collective ego.
Thereby the unthinking behavioural effect is to be both contained and self-constrained by cyclical mainstream media spoon-fed narratives – without daring to go near the scope of historically precedented ideological possibilities housed in the contemporary evidence – otherwise known as ‘conspiracy theories’.
‘Brexit’s Herded Ego’s: Feeding The Illusion Of A Functioning Democracy’ by #GaslightingGilligan https://wp.me/p94Aj4-29D
#ToryAnalytica militarisation is *inevitable*.
Their constant aim of making themselves unelectable to women continues unabated. This is shameful & for a party with a female Health Sec & a female First Minister, one who proclaims to be a feminist at that, is doubly shameful. I’m absolutely done with them if they do this. I don’t want to live in the kind of country that would do this to women, not even an independent one.
@RitaB (12.18) –
Thanks for that template.
Just used it to message Ruth Maguire and my regional MSPs.
Using https://www.writetothem.com/ it took approx two minutes.
😉
For info, the Bill is:
Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) (Scotland) Bill
and Johann Lamont’s proposed amendment to the Bill is:
“Para 28. In the schedule, page 13, line 4, at end insert—
”
Recurring thought I have on the woke stuff in general is whether it is part of the British intelligence campaign against Scotland going independent. However the woke movement seems to exist (in many other western countries at any rate.) Wonder if anyone has done research on this?
“Our sovereignty was traded away many years ago by people who did not own it.”
That’s not what it says in the ToU.
Weasel worded response is right. Scotgov and lobbyists have made damn sure that NOBODY is brave enough to apply the Equality Act exemptions for fear of being marked as a transphobe heretic.
Is everybody else enjoying realising just how fucking slimy our politicians are?
@Albert Herring,
It may not say it, but that’s what happened. We became a minority. A minnow swimming with sharks.
Best practice in care is person centred. That’s all that really need to be said. The rest is Munchausen. If that evolves into by proxy you get nurses nearly killing children in order to star in their own story.
As an Englishman who likes to keep an eye on what’s happening over the border via this site (and others), I was not expecting to comment on here.
However I’ll make an exception and applaud this article and your opposition to the other gender stupidity being advocated by the Scottish government. Women (word used in the traditional sense) need this support!
Can I remind everyone it’s not just grown women who get Raped.
Sometimes it’s tiny wee girls, children. Anyone who thinks a child cannot recognise a MAN in a dress pretending to be a Woman is a really not right in the head.
Even Small Children CAN recognise the evidence of their own eyes.
So not only have they to suffer the trauma of Rape? MSPs are determined to further traumatise Small Children by Gaslighting them and permitting a Self Identifying Man pretending to be a Woman to commit a Serious Sexual Assault on them under the guise of a Forensic Examination?
Have I got this right?
The sorriest thing I have ever done in my entire life is Vote SNP.
They are EVIL PERSONIFIED.
I despise you and every other MSP who votes for this.
All 129 MSPs are at present a DANGER to innocent children.
WE WILL PUNISH YOU AT THE BALLOT BOX.
See how that FEELZ!
If the SNP vote against this amendment then it is actually dangerous for Scotland for them to be returned to government.
After colluding to jail and innocent man, they have now turned on the victims of rape and sexual assault. If they will screw these women over they have no moral compass. They are drunk on their poll leads but poll leads can evaporate. They are relying on the pro-indy vote and will take any majority on the back of that vote as carte blanc for horrendous policies such as self Id and hate crimes- while doing nothing regarding progress towards independence.
If they vote against this amendment then they are unsaveable. We should actively campaign against them in May and we urgently need a new party, ISP or an Alex Salmond Party.
But, for the SNP the game is up
Emails sent this morning, almost immediate reply from Alex Rowley confirming he will support Johann Lamont’s amendment. Rest gone AWOL. Especially interested in David Torrance reply ….. (If any)
witchy says:
7 December, 2020 at 12:33 pm
We have ‘positive’ discrimination when it comes to getting more women into politics…So it’s ironic that they want to take choices away from women when it comes to this.
Yes, but the SNP leadership see ‘women’ as anyone who identifies as one, not a biological woman.
Here’s the link to Forwomen.scot’s page on this:
https://mailchi.mp/9b91f268670d/urgent-ask-msps-to-vote-for-sex-in-the-forensics-bill
It also contains a link to the Scottish Parliament page where you can find out the names and email addresses of all 8 of your MSPs (1 constituency and 7 list).
You only need to write a couple of lines, but please remember to add your name and address at the bottom, as they will only respond to people in their own constituencies.
I wrote to all 8 of mine last night and will be interested to see who sends an actual response (not just an automated reply) and how the vote goes.
Please write even to those you think are not supportive. They need to know the strength of feeling on this.
Thanks!
What is wrong with them? This is insane, but also very, very cruel. Anyone who endorses this is surely of a suspect character.
Thanks for the reminder, Stuart. Consider it done.
I have already written to my Constituency MSP and all my regional MSPs asking them to support Johann Lamont’s Amendment at
Para. 28. In the schedule, page 13, line 4, at the end insert—
This bill will be going through Stage 3 on 10th December, 2020, the last chance for amendments.
Write to all of your MSP representatives. Contact via:
https://www.parliament.scot/msps/current-msps.aspx
The arguments are laid out in this and you can reference the link to the article when you write to MSPs:
https://mailchi.mp/9b91f268670d/urgent-ask-msps-to-vote-for-sex-in-the-forensics-bill
Russia’s got the right attitude to aw this woke p*sh, they laugh at it and legislate to protect children and women.
Thank you for highlighting this Stu.
I’ve written to my MSP Keith Brown and at least had an automated response. I’ve also written to my Green and Tory list MSPs, I don’t have a list Lib Dem and I’m hopeful (forlornly?) that Labour MSPs will support it.
Another brilliant piece Stuart. I despair at the utter insanity of it all.
What I don’t understand is that gender is surely a matter of perception and sex a matter of biologically-determined fact. How can something that is a matter of perception be legislated for? A matter of perception cannot be legally defined without entering into the realms of thought-control. It seems we really are engaged now in the battle of Gog and Magog.
I note that the government says, “All rights – those of women and trans people – must be protected.” However, what happens, as in this case, when these are mutually exclusive?
I just tried to connect to this article on FB but I got this message…
“User opted out of platform: The action attempted is disallowed, because the user has opted out of Facebook platform.”
Peter Murrell’s most recent letter (Oct 2nd) to the harassment committee appears at the very end of this link.
Might be worth a read for those planning to watch his appearance tomorrow.
(BTW, has anyone ever heard Murrell speak in real life?)
https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/Meeting%20Papers/201208SGHHCPublicPapers(1).pdf
Yes this is a scandal in my opinion, women who’ve just been raped, as you say mainly by a man, must surely feel uncomfortable in the thought that a man could be carrying out their examination.
The Scottish governments reluctance to not see the folly in this, is staggering, and their sheer determination to put women through sheer hell just after they’ve been raped to further uphold their trans agenda, when a few simple word changes could easily sort the mess out is breathtaking to say the least.
And here am I thinking all along that Sturgeon is a feminist.
This post is getting a lot of mentions on The Twitter.
No one can give the sovereignty that you own away, not three hundred years ago or right now,
Unless you do nothing to defend it,
Then that has to be close to tacit in law.
If you want to keep your own or Scotland’s sovereignty then you have to act upon it.
I do not know how many more times I will have to say this,
You, I, the people of Scotland, the nation of Scotland can and must bypass the Scottish government, the English (British) government, the snp, the tories, labour and any other politicians and make your choice to be a people’s government, choose who governs you, with the claim of right, it is the most important step I know of to becoming an independent country.
If you don’t, you have given your sovereignty to a government, any government, then do not expect to be heard, expect to obey that government even when that government is egregious towards the people of its own country, then quite simply you are owned,
And that is what is happening with laws being passed in Scotland right now, it is detrimental to the wellbeing of the majority.
The Claim of right must be acted upon by the people of Scotland.
I would happily contact my MSP, but he happens to be Colin beattie.
Like Midlothians MP, unlikely to do anything.
It makes my blood boil that the SNP are now as bad as the Unionists!
For F**ks sake. Those poor women .
NEC we did not elect you for you to sit on your hands. Do something.
In simple terms-
No woman after such a horrific incident wants a
Trany at their Fanny!
I am all for these people to be treated with respect but
they make it more and more obvious they have no respect
for women born female or their partners.
obviously I’ve e-mailed. Please can every one else do the same. It takes minutes.
As usual lurkers from La La Land yeah we know yer watching Dr Jim and the rest of the delusional crew over there totally convinced this current SNP are going to give them Independence FFS really !
A really simple question
Where is the planning ? OH WE JUST BELIEVE for Christ’s sake get a grip and bloody waken up you have been had
Eh once again the Plan ? oh we cant give the enemy our secretes Ha Ha there is NO bloody plan yah muppets you have been fooled just like the rest of us WAKEY WAKEY
I emailed all my MSPs last night. One constituency SNP, 3 Conservative list, 2 Labour list and 2 Green list. So much for both votes SNP! So far I have had automated replies from 6 of them. Missing a Green and a Labour acknowledgement.
Ian B
P.M. is allegedly a well known member of the Embra guy scene.
I think that is s how you spell “guy”.
So he will sound accordingly.
To force a woman who has just been sexually assaulted by a man to then be intimately examined by a man is an abomination,
only sexual perverts and misogynists could vote against the amendment by Lamont.
Devastating stuff, but unfortunately only the anoraks seem to be fully aware of what is going on.
Rev, if you have enough material (and it seems you may), perhaps you might consider a Wee Blue book equivalent (Wee Womens’ Book)? highlighting all this crap and the naming the main culprits involved for bringing this in and/or supporting it. It could be widely distributed to any concerned. It affects women of course, but most men have daughters/sisters/mothers! Even the threat of this dropping through letterboxes before the next election would create panic and perhaps provide the kick up the backside that certain SNP/green politicians need? I think quite a few womens’ groups would be willing to help out!
Despite its large majority, the WM Government has struggled in several votes due to resistance from own independently-minded MPs.
The Scottish public is about to find out whether the SNP MSPs can be trusted to protect them from Sturgeon and the demands of her favoured lobby group.
David Rodgers says: at 1:31 pm
“Recurring thought I have on the woke stuff in general is whether it is part of the British intelligence campaign against Scotland going independent.”
Aye, it certainly makes one wonder why the hell both supposedly Pro-Indy Parties in the current form of the SNP and Greens are so focused on pushing policies the electorate don’t want whilst the big issues seem rather neglected.
Fuck me, they’re just continually burning their votes with the folk I speak to because of the crap they are getting up to.
Goodness knows how the polls are holding up, but I guess polling companies can select dullards to get the responses they desire.
No way I can continue being a campaigner for them as I’m no snake oil salesman.
Has anybody looked at the betting odds on certain individuals retaining their seats?
Might be worth a punt with the polls being the way they currently are, but knowing there could well be a potentially damaging media onslaught that will occur prior to the election.
IIRC Swinney was a getting a bit of a sweat on last time and his recent antics with that Inquiry and the pathetic smear about Alex the Friday before the Conference.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55106804
He could have just said “no comment” when asked, seeing as they usually seem so keen on the Weesht For Indy line…
Are there that many trans doctors in Scotland?
Shouldnt any rape victim be able to say “I wish to see …….” as they decide after so much horror has fell upon them.
Consideration for the victim should be paramount without us making faux “other victims” around such horrible events.
Scot Finlayson
You’re letting your white, male privilege cloud your judgement. If the person in front you says they are a woman then they must be a woman, Cogito, ergo sum. It’s only your prejudice that is stopping you from acknowledging that.
Seriously though, I agree, but “abomination” is not nearly strong enough. If anybody stopped to think about this for a second can see that there is something profoundly wrong, on a basic decency level, with this.
Have contacted my MSP and list MSP, Kate Forbes and Marie Todd will probably toe the party line I fear, John Finnie is Green so he will prob toe their line, Labour Rhoda Grant and David Stewart will probably vote in favor, Tories Jamie Halcro Johnston’s, Donal Cameron and Edward Mountain I am not sure about but hopefully will also support the amendment,
I got automatic replies from Forbes, Todd, Grant and Stewart, nothing from the Green nor any of the Tories though, but if Forbes votes in favour, I will be spoiling my vote, and the isp.Scot will get my only vote, I just hope that the ISP stand for both list and constituency in 5.5 years time, if we still have a parliament worthy of that title
Andrew F says:
7 December, 2020 at 12:35 pm
As a lawyer, might I offer my suggestion?
“…may specify the gender or sex of…”
Fixed, and very difficult to argue against one would hope.
Hi Andrew, The Bill also deals with the recruitment of specialist medical practitioners to provide the service. So it is essential that they use Sex NOT Gender to ensure they are compliant with the Equality Act and able to use the sex-based employment exemptions of the Genuine Occupational Requirement.
The NHS have been Stonewalled which means they have been given misinformation about the Equality Act and the exemptions which can be applied when the need is justified. And if ever a need was justified it is the service this Bill wants to put in place. It is also important to ensure the NHS meets their public sector equality duty and if the term Gender is used, which is not defined in any UK law, Stonewall will keep on providing false information as they are the ones pushing Gender instead of Sex.
It is also worth noting that this doesn’t just affect women, men and transmen are also victims of rape by a male, and they may also prefer to have a female examiner rather than a male no matter how they identify.
It is essential that we all contact our MSP’s (all 8 of them). They will be a mix of political parties but the ones that really need a kick up the arse are the SNP, the Greens & Libdems. However we cannot be complacent, even though it is a Labour amendment that is no guarantee all their MSP’s will vote for it, like the Tories, they could go either way. So they all need to know the voters are against this nonsense.
If you are tweeting about it use any or all of the following hashtags.
#SixWords #SexMatters #SexNotGender
Rape Clause Sturgeon.
This is where her leadership has taken the SNP. I’ll always vote for independence but for the first time in my life I can’t vote SNP.
I’ve emailed all my MSPs. I urge you to do it.
@Ronald Fraser, is that the youth clubs in Embra he likes, PM reminds me of two people, the first is Penfold in Dangermouse cartoon from the 80’s, the other is some guy called Thomas Hamilton who was a scout master
Contacted mine this morning – holding my nose as I did . The only reply so far, a positive one, was from Michelle Ballantyne – not a natural ally but at least she is on side with this.
Why are people saying this wokism is British Intelligence campaign against independence on one hand but on other hand saying the only vehicle for indy is the SNP? This nonsense is being driven by the SNP leadership ffs. Please explain.
Ellie says:
7 December, 2020 at 5:09 pm
Why are people saying this wokism is British Intelligence campaign against independence on one hand but on other hand saying the only vehicle for indy is the SNP? This nonsense is being driven by the SNP leadership ffs. Please explain.
cognitive dissonance
“Why are people saying this wokism is British Intelligence campaign against independence on one hand but on other hand saying the only vehicle for indy is the SNP? This nonsense is being driven by the SNP leadership ffs.”
Ellie, that sort of cognitive dissonance is rife on here. I’m glad I’m a relatively simple fish.
Of course, the antagonism is resolved when you know – like 2 + 2 = 4 – that there’s simply no prospect of the SNP with Sturgeon as leader doing anything to achieve independence.
Ian Brotherhood: “BTW, has anyone ever heard Murrell speak in real life?”
Yes, well, sort of; https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/video/nicola-sturgeon-speech-peter-murrell-interview-sot-news-footage/652282076
“The weasel-worded response on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Health seeks to reassure women that Equality Act exemptions on the employment of trans people in such sensitive roles will still apply.”
——————————————————————
So do these exemptions not apply to a certain Mridul Wadhwa a man who is in employment portraying himself as a female in a rape crisis centre, and if they do then doesn’t it show they give no protection to women and essentially worthless
Graeme says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
7 December, 2020 at 5:35 pm
“The weasel-worded response on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary for Health seeks to reassure women that Equality Act exemptions on the employment of trans people in such sensitive roles will still apply.”
——————————————————————
So do these exemptions not apply to a certain Mridul Wadhwa a man who is in employment portraying himself as a female in a womans crisis centre, and if they do then doesn’t it show these exceptions give no protection to women and are essentially worthless
I checked the GMC -General Medical Council for guidelines on “Intimate examinations and chaperones” to see what term they used. They also use “gender” – not sex.
https://www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-guidance-for-doctors/intimate-examinations-and-chaperones/intimate-examinations-and-chaperones
Just thought I should add; when you compose your letter to your MSP DON’T use a stock or copied letter from comments on this or any other site.
The ‘Write to Them’ site (thanks, ClanDonald, 12.25pm, also see below link) specifically states;
‘Use your own words: we block copied-and-pasted identical messages‘
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
One-word madness from ‘Scotland’s’ Party; completely lost any sense of direction.
Sturgeon: an undoubted disaster for this country’s future.
Good work, Lamont.
Good work, Stuart.
o/t Scotland have drawn in the World Cup qualifiers.
Denmark, Austria, Israel, Faroe Islands, Moldova.
Could have been worse and for once we have avoided the really top teams. Go Stevie Clarke !!!
Ellie: you are right. The leadership must be 100% behind this stuff or it wouldn’t go through. We must choose: either Nicola Sturgeon and the top notchers should be out on their ear for allowing a take-over of the party; or she and they are behind this. Personally, I think they are behind it. I have heard yet again someone say that she is too timid on independence, yet, ffs, she is not timid on anything else. She’s a cross between The Governess and Margaret Thatcher on steroids: the lady’s not for turning. She can’t be both timid and not timid at the same time. Timid people are usually timid across the board. She went to the UN and spoke on this trans gender stuff, promising, I believe, that it would become law in a ‘progressive’ Scotland. How can she even contemplate doing this to her own sex when she claims to be a feminist? What about our independence? Go to the UN and talk about that, SNP.
I think that women are going to lose it over this stuff, I really do. They have underestimated us. Boy, have they underestimated us.
I emailed my 8 reps on Friday, had 2 acknowledgments from 1 tory and 1 pres officer , email this morn from pres officer stating he had no vote unless votes drawn , NOTHING from my SNP reps Adams and Newlands
As you will be aware Lorna Campbell I support you in everything you have said and posted , BUT I CANNOT understand ANY female willing to vote for a party that WILL NOT listen to their FEMALE voters and continues to IGNORE and DEMEAN the outrage this is creating within the YES movement , I am male 69 years old married with a daughter and I REFUSE to vote for any person or party that continues to FORCE this lunacy on its citizens male or female
Independence for Scotland under Sturgeon and her CRAVEN ACOLYTES , nae chance , they are as bad as the tories but at least the tories hide their deviants , Sturgeon gives them power
1 reply so far.
Tory List drifter say’s he’ll vote for the amendment.
Waiting with baited breath to hear what my other “representatives” declare.
Not hoping for much with 2 Green listies & “prominent TIE campaigner” SNP MSP in my Constituency.
No idea what the others will respond with.
Willie B 4.59pm
Lol,,,You got it.
Maybe he is the Chief Scout leader out there.
Thank you for drawing this issue to broader attention. A lot of us will be watching very carefully how this vote goes and it will influence how we vote in May. Our MSPs should take note. I can’t believe the SNP are taking this risk now.
@ Wee Chid at 5.06
I’ve had the same; two automated fobbings-off (we get so much e-mail! – poor dears) and the supportive one from Michelle B.
How depressing that only an ex-Tory can be bothered.
Related topic@ For Women Scotland, the group that is publicising Johann Lamont’s amendment, have a court case fundraiser going for “Stop the Scottish Government redefining “woman” to include men”, on the crowdjustice site. They need £80,000 – with 8 days to go they have £67,270.
They expect to have higher costs because Equality Scotland have intervened i.e. applied to join in the case so For Women must spend more lawyer’s time and be longer in court to argue the point. Is Equality Scotland one of the groups funded by Scot Gov [i.e. by us]? I suspect it is.
Johann Lamont’s amendment: I have written this afternoon to my 8 MSPs stating that I will not vote for any party that opposes the amendment. Gail Ross replied immediately inviting my further
thoughts on her initial response. That response was confusing so I replied to say so and reiterating my view.
Sent this to my constituency MSP – it’s Nicola, so not holding out much hope there. Also sent slightly amended versions to the Rogues’ Gallery who represent Glasgow on the list – it feels shitty to be depending on them.
“Dear Nicola Sturgeon,
Regardless of where one stands on the transexuality issue, only a person bereft of empathy and sanity would remove a raped woman’s guarantee that they will not be examined by medical staff bearing male sexual characteristics. I therefore request that you, as my representative, and Parliamentary leader of my Party at Holyrood, agree the amendment of “gender” to “sex” in the Bill presently before the Scottish Parliament dealing with forensic medical examination of rape victims. I am not convinced that Equality Act exemptions on the employment of trans people in such sensitive roles are firm enough, and, in any case, definitions of such may be subject to change.”
Ron Maclean says:
7 December, 2020 at 1:17 pm
“I would like to ask my MSPs to support the Lamont amendment or to put forward a further amendment in line with the @Andrew F suggestion at 12:35pm. I’d appreciate some help with the proper format.”
Ron, I just copied similar to that of
RitaB @ 12:18 pm
then got the emails from the Scot gov website and emailed each of my MSPS.
.
Can you ignore the 1st vote for a constituency candidate and still give your second vote to a list party candidate ?
I think if i could vote in Scotland, sadly this would be my choice now. This woke sh**e and non action for independence has totally scunnered me. As jim royle would have said, i can’t be arsed anymore .
I had a hernia op last year and asked to see the male GP as the wound was giving me trouble. The other GP in my practice is a woman and excellent, but I actually felt a wee bit embarrassed about discussing this with her.
I cannot even imagine what it must be like for a woman who has suffered serious sexual assault by a male, only to be confronted by another. Nothing against other doctors but every effort must be made to reassure the victim.
If the SNP Govt. was a football team,I would be thinking they were trying to throw the game.
Perhaps that’s where the “ringfenced” money went. It’s all, at good odds, on the SNP failing to gain a mjority at the vote in May. It’s the only explanation which makes sense.
If the ousted MSPs disappear to S. America after the election, I would not be surprised.
Ellie says: at 5:09 pm
“Why are people saying this wokism is British Intelligence campaign against independence on one hand but on other hand saying the only vehicle for indy is the SNP? This nonsense is being driven by the SNP leadership ffs. Please explain.”
I’ll respond seeing as you don’t @ anyone.
Nobody on this thread has stated what your response suggests.
There is one post and my response to it which were merely asking, and considering the question as to who actually benefits from the actions we see unfolding.
Whether there is direct involvement through infiltration, or just setting up and playing useful idiots to do their work, it is hardly an out there concept when you know Scotland’s resources are effectively keeping the UK afloat.
It’s a textbook divide and rule example, and those that hold real power will utilise or leverage any aspect they can to hold onto Scotland’s resources.
The question is why have “our” supposedly brightest and best astute politicians latched on to pushing such emotive and divisive policies at this time…
Further to my comment above, I have had a reply from a Conservative MSP saying that the Conservatives will be supporting the Lamont amendment.
So we are one week into a radical cleanout of the SNP and back to the usual tired old ‘don’t vote for the SNP’ ‘We will never get inependence with Sturgeon in charge’ etc
FFS, let’s give the new broom a chance to do a bit of sweeping, eh?
I imagine the number of unreconstructed trans GPs is vanishingly small, so I can’t really see this as an issue worth getting steamed up about.
I am worried that the ‘other’ side’ ‘our’ side or the side for common sense , whatever you want to call it, is in danger of getting as woke about this as the wokies.
Sturgeon’s coat is on a shoogly peg anyway . . .
Just heard two english parasites were in our Capital City today.
Willie and Kate.
Fuck Off and don’t come back!!!
Lorna, I don’t think NS is timid but I do think she is reluctant to risk her “Nation’s Mother” status. She is increasingly coming across to me as an Eva Peron type character. That as others have suggested she is looking out for her career after Holyrood.
@Scots Renewables,
It’s more than Trans Dr’s. It’s about putting a definition of women\ trans into legislation . This will set a legal precedent and provides a future definition legal issues in any area.
That’s the real problem.
Why would a trans woman want to force themselves in such a situation anyway? Surely a little self awareness and human compassion should over-ride personal feelings anyway?
If someone in a state of trauma didn’t want me around for any reason,I’d back off. Even if I thought they were being unreasonable.
ScotsRenewables says:
7 December, 2020 at 6:52 pm
“I imagine the number of unreconstructed trans GPs is vanishingly small, so I can’t really see this as an issue worth getting steamed up about”.
Really? Are you female? If it was you or a close female relative being examined would you want this?
What comes next, if this passes? Or do we not bother getting ‘steamed up’ about it and say cheerio to womens rights and spaces altogther?
@Wee Chid 6:20pm
Thank you, and all who posted helpful links.
I asked eight MSPs to support the amendment. Got automated replies from four. Nothing back from two Conservatives and a Green so far but one Conservative MSP replied fully saying his party would be supporting the Lamont amendment. He added that the SNP Government must do more to create a justice system that finally puts victims first.
Ellie,
Funny you should mention Eva Peron, https://www.arcofprosperity.org/an-english-argentina/
@ Scaredy cat t 7.09
I think your second question answers your first 🙂 .
Validation over-rides all else. That’s why some transwomen are drawn to women’s officer positions in political parties, too, I assume.
OK Bob, I can see that. A kinda sneaky side door.
Dan, I didn’t @anybody as I was making a general comment about the TRA involvement in the SNP. If we are saying that the leadership has somehow been hoodwinked into this ideology by external forces, we need leaders. Equally if the leadership is voluntarily playing along with external forces we need new leaders. If the leadership genuinely believes in GRA reform as it stands I don’t want them representing me and I want new leaders.
Thanks Rev for highlighting and well said Lorna, spot on as ever.
Like yourself getting increasing angry. Sick to the back teeth of all this shite. This lot in government are turning the clock back on womens rights a good 25 years. Just about had it.
Just watched the video on your link to the debate about Claire Lally, the sLab member of shadow cabinet branch office, with Susan Dalgety. You were excellent Stu. Susan Dalgety hypocrisy stink, she’s called snp nazis as a sLab cllr, yet moaning about the “tone” of the debate. What a walloper.
I emailed all my MSPs half an hour ago & have already received a detailed reply from Kenny Gibson (my wife did too) saying why he is voting for the Lamont amendment. At least I’ve got one MSP worth giving my vote to in June.
(Automated replies from a couple of the others but nothing of substance as yet.)
@Spike
You can tell that the Russians are on the right side in this one by reading RT news and opinion. But then in a lot of ways the Soviets were also more moral than Western Capitalism.
Russia lost much of its Union and its shielding Eastern Europe (I fully understand why they wanted it) and now NATO is pushing deep into their former territory with the Baltics joining as well as the former Eastern Bloc countries.
Russia’s actions in Ukraine are to stop it too falling to NATO since it could easily act as a flashpoint to war. In Putin’s place i would have done the same despite being a pacifist. I asses taht he has averted a wider war and Ukraine brought much of it on it’s own head. Sorry if that offends anyone but that’s Realpolitik.
They tabled a law mandating the Ukrainian language which caused the Russian speaking East to rise in response. The pleas to NATO and pleas to be allowed to join made a bad situation worse. Thank goodness Hillary wasn’t President then.
I’ve emailed my MSP and all my list MSPs. No SNP in my list unfortunately. One Green. However I think its vitally important to email ALL your MSPs regardless of how you think or know they are likely to vote. It is important to let them know what we think of this and what they are risking by ploughing on with it. So far I’ve had one reply – from Alex Rowley (Lab) who informs me he plans to vote FOR the amendment.
Stuart MacKay, Thanks for the link, my argument however is not quite as developed. It was what popped into my head when I read that she was up for being vaccinated live on TV to convince people.
“Can you ignore the 1st vote for a constituency candidate and still give your second vote to a list party candidate ?”
Yes. There is no obligation to use both your votes.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I expect to see less and less of this bullshit since the NEC changes.
@Ron Maclean: my Conservative MSP Donald Cameron’s response was in the same words as yours. Same person or same letter, I wonder?
Ellie,
It was just good fortune that Thomas Widmann posted that story this morning and you mentioned Peron.
I think you summed up the situation beautifully with those two words. Even more so, now that The Mother Of Scotland is going to show us all how to behave. If only we had a way of making her Queen of Scots – we’d be independent by breakfast time tomorrow.
@ Scaredy cat again
Here’s something that illustrates my point, though one might hope that medical professionals would be a bit more restrained:
https://twitter.com/TheSirensTail/status/1336006991634894856
@ScotsRenewables
I am not a woman and neither are you. So lets not underestimate the impact this has on women. I relayed an incident on this blog about a theatre visit we had. New Policy. Anything goes in the toilets. Choose the toilet you are most comfortable in. The reality my wife didn’t go to the toilet at the interval. 6 guys, hovering about the previously designated female toilet. In the end it spoiled her night. She went when she got home. Subsequently got a urine infection I am not a doctor so maybe unrelated. Spoiled the night. We will never go back to that theatre. The practical outcome of this trans SNP policy. Women demand and quite rightly their own spaces.
Thanks Stuart your comment about indy tomorrow brought a wee smile.
I’ve just emailed all my MSPs. I await their responses.
@Sarah 8:02pm
The very same.
crazycat says:
7 December, 2020 at 8:09 pm
@ Scaredy cat again
Here’s something that illustrates my point, though one might hope that medical professionals would be a bit more restrained:
My God, that is something else.
Sexual deviants, all of them.
All 8 MSP’s contacted urging them to support ammendment.
All MSPs sent to , plus my SNP MP to maybe have a word with the SNP MSP.
I have Johann, sent her a wee note of thanks, Oh, and wee Paddie.
Sent him a wee special note in addition “Hello, Patrick. This letter is a waste of time for you I know, but I thought I should send it you to appreciate how the population feels about a fraction of 1% of the population being given precedence over the rest of us. Thank you.”
Once agane, Stuart, whit the hell would we dae without you. I’ve half given up seeing this go through in my, possibly not to much longer, lifetime.
No need to be surprised at this.
As has been covered on this site
https://wingsoverscotland.com/waiting-for-the-men
Mridul Wadhwa conned his way into a rape crisis job by pretending to be a woman
And the SNP never seem to have been bothered by his activism
http://www.mridulwadhwa.scot/#MyWorks
Tannadice boy 8.14pm. I would have went in to the toilet with her and stood outside or by the cubicle.
No need to be surprised at this.
As has been covered on this site
https://wingsoverscotland.com/waiting-for-the-men
Mridul Wadhwa conned his way into a r**e crisis job by pretending to be a woman
And the SNP never seem to have been bothered by his activism
http://www.mridulwadhwa.scot/#MyWorks
@Stuart MacKay 8.07pm
Great idea! Then she could go England and be detained at her Majesty’s pleasure, just like the original.
Thanks for the answer rev, i was’nt sure.
I feel angry.
When I did Physics & Astronomy at Glasgow University, I was told that “physics is the science of measurement – if you can’t measure it, it’s not physics.”
Sex is measurable – gender is not. You can prove your sex, you can NOT prove your gender. Thus, sex is scientific and gender is not.
This leads me to say, with a heavy heart, that the SNP has turned into an anti-science party. To pass legislation protecting a characteristic that can NEVER be measured or proven is childish, illogic nonsense.
If that gets passed, it’s a slide towards the end of the scientific era.
I find I’m regularly prefixing the initials “SNP” with an outburst of profanity.
This is yet another of these occasions…
If the perverts and misogynists get their way on the GRA reform it will mean any man or woman can self gender without any transition period or counciling or details of longterm willingness to change,
any male doctor can at a whim decide his gender is female and gain unfettered access vulnerable women,
and nobody could stop him, in actual fact it would be against the law to even try and think about stopping him, what with Humza`s Hate Thought Bill coming on line.
Transgender folk are as good and as bad as any in society it would be transphobic to think otherwise but there will be male parasites with their woke handmaidens infesting the trans community useing them as a vehicle to get legal access to woman only spaces and places.
https://caltonjock.com/2020/12/02/salmond-affair-update-as-intriguing-as-an-episode-of-taggart-in-the-frame-allison-lloyd-somers/
20 Nov: Miss A, arranged a meeting with Somers at which she told him of experiences in the past that she wanted to share in a way that would improve the organization. She stressed she was not making a complaint, she simply wanted to share the information. An option would be to speak to the First Minister which was why she had approached him. Somers said he felt “overwhelmed” by the disclosure and with the permission of Miss A, he informed his line manager Barbara Allison.
He went on to say that he did not tell the First Minister that Miss A had confided in him because it wasn’t his experience to share and had he done so he would have put the First Minister in a state of knowledge about something she could not have taken action upon at that point?”
Afternote: His decision not to inform the First Minster denied Miss A the informal meeting she had asked for and escalated events from informal to formal. His reasoning was flawed since it was based on a rebuttable assumption. His choice of words is also significant. “at that point” could be a reference to the draft policy which he was working on with Lloyd. He fine well knew what he was doing.
@Mike d
I didn’t know this at the time. She told me afterwards. A play called Death of a Salesman by Arthur C Miller. I really enjoyed the play. Great acting. The night was spoiled. Women can’t breathe. The only person that frightens me is myself. Had she told me it was six versus one. I am United Shed boy of course.
@muscleguy
Read a lot on Russia since 2013, lots of good articles on the Vineyard of the Saker.is and I like the writing of Rostislav Ischenko and the late Andre Vlitchek. Putin’s up way too early in the morning for the north Atlantic terrorist organisation and Russia will prevail in her sphere imho. Cheers pal.
Just sent mail to my msp SA Somerville assuring her that she will lose my vote along with the six other voting members of my family if this goes through and will be given to any other party that supports independence.
OT
For those who
For some reason
Have put Putin on their xmas card list
And want to tell us
Russian influence under threat in its own back yard
https://archive.is/e2b49
Why is the SG inviting so much anger and unpopularity from women voters so near to an election. Women voters have been coming round to voting for the SNP and independence , so why would you deliberately alienate these voters at such a crucial time. Could it be that a reduced majority in May lets the SNP off the referendum hook.
And a deafening silence from Sturgeon.
???
Regarding unisex toilets, in my younger days I worked as an architectural technician, and IIRC the building regulations stipulated the number of WCs and urinals that were required for each sex in public buildings, in proportion to the capacity of the building.
On my most recent visit to a well-known venue in Edinburgh, The Banshee Labyrinth, I was bemused to find that the men’s toilets were now ‘unisex’. I don’t know about the ladies’ ones, but there would seem to be something of a double-standard if this idiotic policy only applies to the men’s toilets. Doesn’t the law state that public toilets must be designated as male and female? Do we have any architects here who can confirm this?
pissing is political – who knew? (even without trannies)
http://www.israelshamir.com/article/toilet-wars/
If we ever get indy would we really want Sturgeon and co to handle separation negotiations. I wouldn’t trust this women, ever.
Beaker @6.21
You make a valid point – I realise that if I had the choice only between a genuine male Doctor and a trans woman Doctor to carry out a necessary intimate examination I certainly would not want to be examined by a trans woman Doctor. So there you have it!
Am I a bigot for stating the above? Some would think so.
McDuff @10:13pm. That is my worry also: I no longer trust the SNP to negotiate satisfactorily.
It does beg the question.
What kind of society is Sturgeon trying to engineer? She must be fully aware of all these concerns. Yet she seems to encourage this anti science sexual utopia.
Why are the SNP obsessed with gender, sex and all things weird. Can we get back to politics and independence.
Never thought I’d say this but it wouldn’t bother me now if the Tories shut Holyrood – all we get from the devolved set up are crazy laws and colonial gov which = even more oppression. Whitehall aye sends its finest to run Scotland’s public institutions regardless of which duffers sit in Holyrood.
O/T – or maybe not:
Meanwhile, there’s this glorious piece of patronizing piffle to behold
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-dealing-with-awkward-social-situations—guidance/
https://tinyurl.com/yxbt8c5n
I don’t know anyone who talks like the examples in that (or looks like the illustrations!).
Meg merrilees @10:16pm. I feel the same, I would rather have a male Dr than a trans identifying one.
@Big Jock,
It’s actually like 1930s Germany liberalism. It was rife among the middle and upper classes, but ordinary folk hated the hedonism and despised them
I do believe Murrell is having to appear at the inquiry tomorrow on his birthday.
@ crazycat at 10.37pm: You’re not kidding. Why can’t people just obey the instructions? When others are being anti-social, why is it that those who are following the instructions who have to submit to and appease them? It’s totally topsy-turvy. Infuriating!
Anybody know how many of the 118 trained practitioners are trans?
While it is important to get the words right there is little point in getting into a Daily Mail righteous indignation frenzy over something that isn’t going to happen.
Saffron Robe says:
7 December, 2020 at 2:48 pm
I note that the government says, “All rights – those of women and trans people – must be protected.” However, what happens, as in this case, when these are mutually exclusive?
In these circumstances I’m not convinced that there is mutual exclusivity. Under such trauma I would expect pretty much everyone to forget gender conditioning and ask for what makes them feel least awful. I would not be surprised if some male victims might also ask for a female examiner.
In my email I tried to stay neutral on the sex or identity of the victim because, in my view, this betrays all of them.
Excerpt:
Failing to ensure that the new law clearly and unambiguously states that survivors of rape and sexual assault can choose the sex of their medical examiner is a failure to protect and support this group of vulnerable people.
I strongly urge you to support and vote for Johann’s amendment, any other course of action is inhumane and abhorrent.
I’ve four auto responses so far. Although I can be sure how Christina McKelvie is going to vote. I’m putting my hopes on Monica Lennon and Richard Leonard (two of my list), FFS!
Given the circumstances – an examination following rape – these are understandable concerns.
However, what about other medical procedures? You’ll be called for a colonoscopy soon when certain birthday is passed. Should you be informed – and give consent – whether the clinician is male, female or transgender – and does it matter?
Handandshrimp
You are right. Statistically it is highly unlikely that there are any trans people among the practitioners. However the principle stands. Surely, of all situations, this is a critical one for vulnerable women and trans-women have no right to be there.
@ Handandshrimp
The more instances there are of confusing/conflating sex and gender, the easier it becomes to extend them.
At present, the Equality Act 2010, a reserved piece of legislation, allows for exemptions in some circumstances, so that single-sex spaces/services can be preserved, and it is that which ScotGov is citing as a reason not to worry, as mentioned ATL here.
But…
groups like Stonewall are explicitly seeking to have the EA amended, to remove those exemptions (which is rather revealing of their motivations). So the safeguard ScotGov relies on now may one day not be there.
As for your question –
a) we mustn’t ask them, so no-one knows, and
b) even if there are very few/none now, the legislation will cover future recruitment.
We know that there are people who would actively seek that sort of employment if there were no safeguards.
Great news! After achieving precisely nothing nicola (this hasn’t stopped her from saying that the lockdown is responsible for the decreasing numbers but this only works if you ignore the fact that the numbers were already decreasing before the lockdown was even imposed) has announced that level 4 areas will be moving into level 3 this friday! Maybe by this time next year we will be in level 2.
crazycat
Its not just that Stonewall etc want to change the law
They and their allies have been propagandising as if the law ALREADY says what they would like it to say
They have institutionally captured everything from the police to education with this lie
Because all those institutions and many of the individuals inside them
were either afraid of being described as transphobic
or happy to turn a blind eye
This ‘gender or sex’ moment is when the con bubbles to the surface
And we find out who are the good guys and the bad guys
@Meg merrilees says:
7 December, 2020 at 10:16 pm
Beaker @6.21
“You make a valid point – I realise that if I had the choice only between a genuine male Doctor and a trans woman Doctor to carry out a necessary intimate examination I certainly would not want to be examined by a trans woman Doctor. So there you have it!
Am I a bigot for stating the above? Some would think so.”
Definitely not a bigot. Some religions are particular when it comes to who treats them, and that is respected without any outcry from other groups.
@ mike cassidy
Indeed; that’s why Tannadice Boy’s wife was confronted with a unisex toilet, and why there are men in women’s prisons, etc.
But while there are theoretical exemptions, there’s something to fight back with (Marks and Spencer have just made their changing rooms single-sex again – no doubt a commercial decision, but nonetheless welcome), there’s hope.
That hope would be extinguished were there to be no legal exemptions available.
Today was a big day for me.
I don’t often like to refer to personal issues but Brexit landed on my head today with a huge bang; I was informed by a German company I work with (and depend on to a large extent) that they are now preparing for a “no deal” Brexit – it has pretty massive implications for us, all very negative, including tariffs on the goods and services we bring into the UK which are now going to be classed as “imports”.
I’ve spent the day talking to people in a few different industries and sectors and I get the impression nobody is prepared for this impending nightmare. Nobody.
The Germans I refer to above are more prepared than most (by a long shot) and they are freaking out. They definitely hit the panic button today and it took a lot of people by surprise.
I know we are all tired of the subject but a “no deal” Brexit is going to hit everybody in the UK badly, in ways nobody could foresee.
If you aren’t shitting yourself you probably don’t understand the situation.
This is also perceptive:
https://twitter.com/bjportraits/status/1335457926002176000
crazycat, I suspect that’s what explains and always have. Follow the money eh… it’s big bucks. Even seemingly hetero men are buying make-up and stuff.
“I do not have a single SNP MSP representative on either the constituency or the list. Therefore I am writing to you as my MP, in order to make my views known on the subject of the Forensic Medical Services bill that will be presented at Holyrood this week. As I am sure you are perfectly well aware, in its current form this bill will allow a rape victim to specify the sex of an examining doctor, but not the gender. The purpose of the distinction is to protect the rights of and prevent discrimination against trans people.
Nobody has a “right” to examine rape victims. Allowing a female rape victim to specify the gender of her examiner is not denying someone’s “human rights”. It is simple decency and common sense. The bill is of course part of a wider agenda under which, should the rights of trans people come into conflict with the rights or interests of other groups, it is always the trans rights that must prevail. Other legislation is afoot, to protect more “rights” of the trans lobby, the consequences of which would be that any man can decide his gender at any time, and access spaces that should be reserved for and secure for actual women.
I cannot understand how the whole legal, political and social agenda in Scotland has been hijacked by this microminority, and I cannot understand why the SNP is crawling around in supine subservience to a tiny little clique of loudmouthed self-centred yobs who appear to believe that theirs are the only rights on the planet that matter, and who insist that their pet peeves be pandered to regardless how many millions of people might be discomfited as a result.
Once you strip out the fetishists, cross-dressers and attention seekers, I doubt that there are more than a few dozen genuine trans people in the country. I am certain that the vast majority of them have far more sense than to lobby for this kind of idiotic nonsense, and the chances of any woman being troubled by any of these people is remote, to put it mildly.
What the imbeciles supporting these policies seem to be too stupid to understand is that in contrast, there are thousands of perverts – men who get their kicks from ogling women, men who get their kicks from intimidating and frightening women, and men who get their kicks from assaulting women or worse. These thousands will be emboldened by this legislation – constantly invading women’s spaces in search of lone women on whom they can prey, to abuse, frighten, or worse. Women will encounter these people constantly, on a daily basis.
And the abusers will not only be emboldened, but enabled. The law will provide them with a perfect get-out card – should any woman try to do anything to prevent them from indulging themselves, she can simply be accused of “transphobia”. Exactly how – as precisely as you can explain it – does the government propose to prevent this from happening? There is even a possibility that women might find themselves accused of and charged with hate crime, for doing no more than trying to protect themselves from the attentions of a pervert.
My vote is a precious one. But I can tell you that if the government goes ahead with this week’s legislation unamended, there is not the remotest likelihood of my campaigning on behalf of or voting for any SNP candidate again. In fact I will campaign against Angus Robertson in the Holyrood election, and give my vote to whichever alternative candidate appears to have a grain of common sense. And I will do what I can to persuade the rest of my family to follow suit. Although some are activists, none are political anoraks. I doubt if a single one of them is fully aware of what is being inflicted on the country in their name, by their party, and I doubt if a single one of them will support it once they are made aware.”
Words fail me. Honestly, what on earth are the SNP thinking??
Make no mistake, that poll lead they keep bragging about, that will go, if this utter p*sh ‘trans’ nonsense is allowed. That they are even still trying to defend this madness…
Seriously, what on earth are they thinking???? Absolute wokey madness.
Any SNP MSP who does not support the amendment will be declaring themselves as woke.
Their agenda is not my agenda nor that of the majority and by their action I withdraw all future support.
Strange Covid stat for me comes from Belgium.
They have been hammered by the virus and today
Became the First Nation of any size to reach 150
Deaths per million of their population.
Has Boris and Hancock been giving them tips?
It seems the vaccines being administered here in the UK
where exported from Belgium.
Could there be a case of the Belgians preferring to take this
high death toll rather than be the crash test dummies to trial these drugs?
My only, thankfully, experience of unisex bogs was a couple of years ago in Ediburgh’s City Art Centre, was about to get a train, hadn’t spotted the sign. Waiting in line for a cibicle a man walked out of one, aye I didn’t hang around.Paid to pee at Waverley.
With Brexit negotiations at stalemate thank goodness
at the 11th hour Westminster is sending to serial liars
who Brussels.
Xenophobes who already broke the original agreement that they signed
and who are quite willing to break international law.
I really don’t know why the EU don’t just walk away and wait for Boris’
Replacement to crawl to Brussels on their knees begging for a deal.
Here’s a question for you. Anyone have any idea what SNP Cllr Graham Campbell did up to the age of 40 (where his Linkedin starts)? He sadly beat the super smart young woman Sameeha Rehman, for the BAME NEC place, anyway his past is a blank, most odd. Any info much appreciated. He was born in Islington, but can’t get beyond that til he’s about 40.
Just in case my comment comes out of pre-mod, I saw the mistake and corrected it before I sent the email… 🙂
O/T. Was watching BBC news this morning (I know, I should know better) and they were on about a man called William Shakespeare getting the vaccine. I wish him well, however I must admit to swearing when the presenter said something like “ What a British thing it was” This is going to be a day of how Great Britain is, first vaccine given in the world blah, blah. Here’s hoping Peter Murrell will tell the truth at the inquiry to brighten up my day. (I know, I should know better)
Hatuey @ 1229 am . Your post leapt out in this thread as it illustrates precisely what we should be talking about -the imminent devastation that will ensue from (particularly a No Deal ) Brexit . That Wings and the commentary is still obliged to focus instead on the Transinsanity is down totally to the warped priorities of the current SNP GOV , and it’s demented adherence to ,what it considers , ” Progressive ” policies – in reality irrational imported garbage , rather than devoting 100% of it’s efforts in a last-ditch fight to prevent us – sharp intake of breath – ” being dragged-out of the EU against our ( democratically expressed ) will “.
Haven’t caught up since yesterday afternoon so something similar may have been posted already, but check this out…
@ Ian Brotherhood
I wonder if her father will vote the same way.
Craig Murray’s latest on Brexit is very interesting – and depressing.
It would appear the EU have ditched the clause that made the ECJ the court of jurisdiction over any disputes. That was an incredible lever that Scotland potentially could have used.
He predict a bad deal, with no imminent chaos in the first instance. The long term damage will come about slower.
The image of the slow cooked lobster comes to mind – particularly with regards Scotland.
I see our august Equalities Meenister is giving another £13m to someone or other promoting the SNP gender agenda:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18927488.13m-fund-tackle-gender-based-violence-opens-covid-delay/
Nothing then for the eradication of perhaps the main cause of inequality in an internal-colonial Scotland, i.e. the ‘Cultural Division of Labour’ (Hechter 1998).
One thing about this bill – for the SNP MSP’s who have repeatedly fudged the issue when directly asked where they stand on this issue – by their votes will they be known.
It could well be the means by which the areas where different Indy Parties / Candiditates should stand are identified, and identified in a timely manner.
For those who cannot see what the problem is, ’cause how many transgender doctors are there anyway?
I don’t have any words really, for that attitude.
Laws should/must be written, with care, and with an honest attempt to anticipate and mitigate the unintended consequences. This proposed law – is not unintentional in any way.
And it sets a president, in particular, for the Police.
At the moment – any person arrested, who Police have a legal requirement to search – routine or intimate – it can only be done by officers who are the same sex as the prisoner.
There are moves to change this. Which should worry all, who value a fair and non corrupt Police Force.
If a transgender person is arrested – and for the sake of argument – lets say it is a male bodied person, self identifying as a female.
If legally they can insist that they are searched by female officers only, and they are doing so for a sexual thrill, while possibly being off their tits on drugs and violently struggling – it puts the female Police Officers directly being ‘flashed at’ and directly at a physical disadvantage when dealing with a violent prisoner.
Make no mistake, by writing this into law, the custody sergeant, will have no alternative, but to insist the search is carried out by female officers, and face discipline measures (and the force will be sued) if they decide not to do so.
There are many female Police Officers with partners also in the Police – are they to stand back and allow their partner to be indecently exposed at, an violently assaulted – and do nothing?
And the next time that prisoner behaves in an illegal manner – what will the officers do to deal with them – given the above. Perhaps they might just drive on by and not notice, perhaps it might not be worth the bother to deal with the transgender person given the license they are being given to abuse.
But lets return to the changing of the law to allow officers of any sex or gender to search any arrested persons of the opposite sex.
Unintended consequences.
Decent officers will be falsely accused of touching the prisoner up. That will be investigated, which is never a quick process, with huge amounts of stress for the officer accused.
Non decent officers – will use the opportunity to indecently assault the prisoner. And they will make damned sure, that the officers accompanying them, are of a similar disposition. If the prisoner makes a complaint – they will be out numbered.
And do you think the clique of non decent officers are going to appreciate decent, upstanding officers (particularly female ones) working in their midst? or do you think they are going to bully them relentlessly, to ensure their working environment is risk free for them to get their jollies as much as possible.
And do you think that type of alpha male, sexual thuggery is the only area where there will be corruption?
It will take about 2 – 5 years to be noticeable – while the lobby groups and ‘feminist’ politicians have working party talks about how best to encourage females to join the Police.
Unintended consequences, and so very, very predictable if one has the least bit of experience of human nature.
And on one slightly cheerier note – it will not take long – for officer safety reasons – for the cops on the ground – rather than have their female colleagues being put through that – for the male ones to ‘self identify as women’ for the duration of the search, which will lead to complaints, and legal action, and a very high profile court case – during which time the general public will go – wtf – and votes will be lost.
It basically comes down to being raped twice.
Once by the perpetrator, and then by the woowooman.
Bbc news are also showing the Harassment and Complaints Committee live ,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55217649
I should have added you don’t have to sign in to i-player .
@ Ian Brotherhood at 09.06: so that is 2 SNP votes in support of the Lamont amendment so far. Let us hope there is full attendance for the vote.
However, being pessimistic, the Scot Gov could simply withdraw the Bill for presentation at a later date, hoping for a change of personnel.
Male cops will self-identify as women ‘for the duration of the search’?
With a forged gender recognition certificate?
This assertion that people will be able to suddenly decide to change gender on a whim is very misleading.
If the GRA goes throughas proposed I will not be able to use women’s toilets willy nilly (pun intended) because I will not have a gender recognition certificate.
I appreciate that the proposed legislation is a potential minefield, but I still find a lot of hysteria on the supposedly ‘non-woke’ side of the debate.
It is undoubtedly good that Wings has raised the profile of this issue, and one result has been the en-masse removal of the single-issue obsessives who had infiltrated and infected the SNP.
Good job, now let’s get eyes back on the ball. I trust Joanna Cherry and other wise heads to steer a way through this minefield and prefer to spend my time encouraging others to embrace independence rather than scaring the shite out of them with hypothetical whatiffery.
These trans-activists simply have no appreciation of embodiment, so have no credible opinion on inclusion or legal rights. So here’s a look at “Situated cognition and the phenomenology of place: lifeworld, environmental embodiment, and immersion-in-world”.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10339-015-0678-9
I’ve just seen thats it’s also on Tv on the Bbc Parliament channel live until 11.30 am .
Car is in for a service so I will miss the Murrel whitewash and I expect a whitewash.
“It is beyond any reasonable doubt that the failure to do so will lead to more victims declining to report being raped for fear of suffering a second trauma in having such an intimate examination at such a stressful time conducted by a male”
The legislation, at it’s worst, restricts evaluation to women and trans women (if asked by the victim). It stops all normal male doctors from evaluating in a way that hasn’t been the case. I don’t know how many trans doctors there are but it must be tiny. The outcome of this is that more women will be seen by female doctors surely? It is not the wording id choose but it doesn’t reduce rights , it increases by a huge margin the right to be seen by a female.
I agree with your principle but youre wipping up a fear that doesn’t correspond to likely outcome.
The MPs should still make the change .
The law must be coherent with “bounded rationality” if it hopes to be ethical and have legal force. Without an appreciation of human embodiment, the law tends towards irrationality, instrumental-ism. and authoritarianism. So here’s a look at “The Phenomenology of Contagion”. Which you have to reject in order to support the GRA amendments, thereby subordinating the ecological to the psychological. Or to put that another way, subourdinating our biological rights to the will of man, a.k.a. patriarchy. Though Scots are well practice living under Westminster’s racially informed patriarchy, so not much change there.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11673-020-09997-4
@ Mike Cassidy from yesterday @ 9.51pm.
Maybe if you look at things from the other side you’ll find a different perspective than the one espoused by Western think tanks and their failed colour revolutionaries. Russia is in a much securer position now in Belarus, the Caucusus and in particular in Nagorno Karabakh than it was at the start of the 2020. Pashinian the pro western Armenian leader is currently in hiding somewhere in Armenia trying to escape the clutches of his enraged and previously fooled Armenian public.
In order to intellectually acknowledge and accommodate “The Phenomenology of Contagion”, you need a “naturalizing phenomenology”. So here’s a look at “Naturalizing phenomenology – A philosophical imperative”.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610715001182?via%3Dihub
sorry….you need a “naturalised phenomenology”. So here’s a look at “In quest of a new humanism: Embodiment, experience and phenomenology as critical geography”.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0309132512467573
Sarah says:
8 December, 2020 at 10:25 am
“@ Ian Brotherhood at 09.06: so that is 2 SNP votes in support of the Lamont amendment so far.”
I would think we could count on Joan McAlpine too. The only replies I’ve had so far have been from a Tory and a former Tory. Really boils my blood that I had to even ask Tories to help protect my rights.
Peter Murrell not coming across well here!
At the time of the May election, it would be helpful if SNP candidates could have their voting records on certain matters made clear to all. This Bill would certainly be one of them. The (New)SNP seem to be expecting a big win again in May because as they no doubt see it, there isn’t realistically any other Party to vote for on the Candidate vote and not voting for them would praobaly let the Unionists win seats. They simply don’t see not voting for the SNP as an option for those that want independence. .
It would be a hard call to not vote SNP no matter who the candidate was. There are clearly many good SNP SMP/MP’s/Candidates and not voting for them would unfairly punish them for the (in)actions of the Gradualists. Letting in Unionists is obviously also not a good idea. An alternative to the ‘not voting SNP’ nuclear choice, may be to identify those candidates that do truly want independence vs those those that are happy as things stand and only vote for those that do want independence above anything else. Isn’t this what just happened with the NEC?
Unless significant changes have been made to the SNP before the election, thus making the voting decision much more straightforward (ie vote SNP on the candidate vote), if at the election an SNP candidate is just going to be the same gradualist/GRA/Hate Bill seat warmer as now, realistically what would be the point in voting for them. This is especially important since after January, all the indications are that the actions of Westminster will be very severe and the ability of a weak SNP Government to do anything at all would be negligible. Only a strong 100% independence focussed SNP prepared to use the courts would likely succeed against an outright aggressively Unionist Westminster.
A clear indication that gradualist SNP candidates at the May election should not simply expect votes might help focus the SNP on actually making some very necessary changes PDQ. A major shakeout of the SNP seems inevitable. The only question is whether it will be in 2021,2022 or 2023 at the latest. The longer it takes, the more seriously Scotland will suffer from being in the UK. The sooner the SNP shakeout happens the better.
Hatuey says:
8 December, 2020 at 12:29 am
“If you aren’t shitting yourself you probably don’t understand the situation.”
I think I have been ever since the referendum presented us with the Out result.
Good point Ian @11:28am.
I’m still waiting for a response from my MSPs re the Forensic Medical Services Bill amendment proposed by Johann Lamont btw.
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
7 December, 2020 at 7:57 pm
“Can you ignore the 1st vote for a constituency candidate and still give your second vote to a list party candidate ?”
“Yes. There is no obligation to use both your votes.”
I wouldn’t refuse to take the ballot paper though – Take it and spoil it yourself.
Highlands and Islands MSPs
“An important amendment (Para 28) has been proposed to the Forensic Medical Services Bill which will be debated and voted on by MSPs on the 10th December. At the moment the Bill states that people who have been subjected to rape and sexual assault have the right to choose the “gender” of their medical examiner – the amendment calls for “gender” to be changed to “sex”.”
https://mailchi.mp/9b91f268670d/urgent-ask-msps-to-vote-for-sex-in-the-forensics-bill
https://twitter.com/IndyScotParty/status/1336248535809921024
kate.forbes.msp@parliament.scot
Donald.Cameron.msp@parliament.scot
John.Finnie.msp@parliament.scot
Edward.Mountain.msp@parliament.scot
David.Stewart.msp@parliament.scot
Maree.Todd.msp@parliament.scot
Jamie.HalcroJohnston.msp@parliament.scot
Edward.Mountain.msp@parliament.scot
If the law conflicts with, or is hostile towards, the requirements of “bounded rationality”, it is unlikely to poses the potential to be universal in outlook or application. So here’s a look at “Bodily Protentionality”, exploring “Husserlian phenomenological practice”. Which is kind of essential to an appreciation of embodiment that is compatible with bounded rationality.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10743-009-9060-z
Is it legal to pass legislation that includes something that can never be proven?
Sex can be proven but gender cannot.
That’s what really gets me – how can they legislate for something that can never be measured? It’s stupid but is it legal?
Any lawyers here?
Gregory Beekman says:
8 December, 2020 at 12:42 pm
Is it legal to pass legislation that includes something that can never be proven?
Sex can be proven but gender cannot.
That’s what really gets me – how can they legislate for something that can never be measured? It’s stupid but is it legal?
A gender recognition certificate will be the ‘measurement,’ or proof.
Just like a residency certificate, nationality or similar concepts that cannot be ‘measured’
How would a doctor know if I have misgendered myself?
I could say I’m non-binary but am actually gender fluid. Perhaps I suffer from gender dysphoria (is such a thing recognised?)? But medical science has no equipment or symptom list to use to diagnose such a case of self misgendering.
Isn’t Sturgeon’s background as a lawyer? How can she push legislation that includes terminology that is, by it’s very nature, undefinable?
This is just crazy, I don’t understand it.
@ Wee chid at 11.18: completely agree. It’s unnatural asking, and receiving, help from a Conservative!
Gregory Beekman
I’m pretty sure the law needs to reflect the possible rather than the impossible, in order to be potentially universal in outlook and application. Without which, the law can’t claim to articulate legal force. Only authoritarian force. Though I’m no lawyer.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/legal-theory/article/abs/torts-corrective-justice-and-distributive-justice/A68EA1DE5F135BAD0C2020278BC27C28
‘ScotsRenewables says:
8 December, 2020 at 10:28 am
Male cops will self-identify as women ‘for the duration of the search’?
With a forged gender recognition certificate?
This assertion that people will be able to suddenly decide to change gender on a whim is very misleading.’
Reply:
Currently the proposed changes to GRA allow for self identification and do away with the current requirement for 6 months qualified counselling, and a proven 2 years of living as the identified sex.
They also do away with the need for sex change surgery. All of which is required before a GR Certificate is finally issued.
So, in that light there will be no requirement for a ‘forged’ GRCertificate, as the moment of Self Identification will start the process, and obviously people will be able to change their minds.
The potential situation I described was as far from ‘on a whim’ as possible.
But here is another potential situation – we already know the extremes to which sexual predators will got to access children – the money they will spend, the time they will spend, the careers they will dedicate themselves to – all to access children. There are many, many instances of convicted sexual predators who stalked their victim for years, over many addresses, towns, countries and indeed name changes.
Self identification without the current requirements will make it extremely easy to access children and women only spaces without any check to it. It is the most foolhardy naivety to think sexual predators won’t grab that opportunity with both hands.
Safety and crime prevention looks at the way people and in particular criminals behave. Criminals look at the way laws are written and then look for ways to get around those laws.
Extremely badly written laws have the common denominator in that they are written in a way people would like things to be.
Very well written laws, look at what type of protection is trying to be achieved, or what type of behaviour they are trying to stop – and then looks to see what criminal human behaviour will be to try and get round it. The finished draft legislation attempts to cover all the basis and prevent that.
Can I suggest that instead of downplaying the very real concerns people of all sexes have with regards the proposed changes – you have a look to see what exactly they are. Especially when coupled with the proposed Hate Crime Bill.
One of the ways in which this has got as far as it has, is because sensible, reasonable people, from all walks of life, quite rightly say, ‘don’t be silly, it can’t possibly be as daft as that, no-one would propose such a thing’. And then don’t bother to look at the details of exactly what is being attempted.
Btw, the proposed legislation that is causing all this trouble, intends amendments to the “Gender Recognition Act”. Which does not concern itself with the changing of sex, which is physically impossible. So these amendments would appear to be drafted in such a manner as to subvert the rule-of-law.
@Daisy Walker
Brilliantly written and well said, I agree completely.
Government is currently like kids who are writing up their fantasies, rather than dealing with reality. I just don’t understand it. Surely, they are not really this immature?
@CameronB Brodie
“the law needs to reflect the possible rather than the impossible”
Agreed. I just can’t understand why lawyers would back such wooly legislation. Unless they think it’s a guaranteed money-maker? You know, so undefined that both sides can spin out a legal case to years without end and rake in the dough?
Thanks for the encouragement Rev, I’ve just finished contacting my MSPs.
Scots Renewables says: A gender recognition certificate will be the ‘measurement,’ or proof.
Yes, it should be, though the Scot Gov doesn’t seem to care whether there is a certificate or not, it just seems to be a case of “I say, therefore I am”. My, how that quaint “Legal fiction” has been stretched!
Sue, everything I have read indicates certificates will still exist, albeit much easier to get.
I agree anything else – “hey pal, I’m a woman, you got a problem with that” from a hairy perv in the ladies toilet – is completely unacceptable, but as I say I believe use of women-only spaces without a transgender certificate will not/should not be possible.
Here’s an interesting article advising transgender pressure groups to infiltrate the youth wings of political parties:
https://www.womenarehuman.com/revealed-the-tactics-used-to-advance-gender-self-identification-on-the-quiet/
In conclusion, I agree the proposed legislation is severely flawed, but the NEC elections and increased public awareness lead me to believe that the issue is in hand. Keep watching, but keep eyes on the main prize.
@ Gregory Beekman, ‘Surely, they are not really this immature?’
There are a combination of things going on, all at the same time.
The Aids/HIV crisis highlighted to big pharma that there was a new market there – with a ready made ‘marketing group’ to pitch to in terms of the LGBT group.
HRT was one of the big Pharma companies biggest selling drugs – until conclusive evidence was produced linking it to breast cancer in women. The very next day – literally sales of HRT went down to almost zero.
The physical operation for males transgendering to women cost in the region of 25,000 (sorry, I cannot remember if £ or $s).
10 years of HRT meds costs nearly 100,000 (again can’t recall if £ or $).
So, there you have your new market.
Puberty blockers are known to induce long term issues of the bone – like arthritis, and also bone development for things like the pelvis, in addition to suspected impact on long term mental health. Any horror you might be feeling at this, should be drowned out by the very loud noise of KATCHING being heard from big pharma.
Big pharma is international – the whole Transgender – ‘grass roots movement’ sprung up overnight, internationally, with large quantities of money, and PR know how, including the extremely aggressive targeting of any person voicing concerns.
One link to the funding has been George Soros – a major share holder in the company producing HRT – one of his philanthropic charities is a very generous funder to transgender causes. Go figure.
The above is very likely the Main Stream Media has been holding off calling out this nonsense that the SNP is pushing.
They will want to play this card nearer to the May elections, but equally they will not want to ‘make the case’ too hard and prevent it getting forced through later, by a different party.
At the same time, the Brit Nats have a well worn, well practised method of dealing with anti-establishment parties – namely the Labour Party.
Gain enough control of those at the top, then push them to pursue the following policy (under the guise of being inclusive), to open the flood gates for every zoomer in town to become – not just a member – but a policy maker and a candidate.
In this way the party – very, very quickly – becomes far removed from its core objective – and almost totally unelectable. It also drives away all the grounded, qualified, talented people.
It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to prove, a more sophisticated version of pulling punches technique – its more the ‘naive, but well intentioned technique’. Any challenge to it will be dealt with by the ‘daft laddie’ response.
The one thing it is not, is accidental.
Daisy W @ 1.23
Agreed, well said and well written.
I have been writing to my MSP, asking for support in getting ‘women’ added to the Hate Crime Bill. Every other characteristic listed in the Equalities Act will be protected except women. And we won’t be added, mainly because if we speak out of turn or assert that a trans woman is really a man, we can be accused of hate but if we point to some tweets, you know the usual ‘kill a terf’ type stuff, we can then accuse them of hate.
Stalemate.
One other reason may be money. Trans issues aside. If less than 1% of the population start throwing accusations of hate around that’s one thing but if the remaining 51% do the same thing. Let’s just say Police Scotland will be inundated.
I’m gonny keep picking away.
I’ve suggested that linguistics are crucial to diversity management and an ethics of difference, as well as an ethics of care. So here’s a look at “COGNITIVE LINGUISTICS AND GENDER REPRESENTATION”.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.106.9904&rep=rep1&type=pdf
“However, what about other medical procedures? You’ll be called for a colonoscopy soon when certain birthday is passed. Should you be informed – and give consent – whether the clinician is male, female or transgender – and does it matter?”
Just so we’re clear: are you equating a colonoscopy to rape?
It must be remembered that some will view ethically justified medical interventions as an infringement on their person, because of reasons. So here’s a look at a bit more linguistic theory, with this “Editorial: Language, Cognition, and Gender”.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4885825/
“Gender inequality remains a contentious issue in many societies, despite legislative, and other less formal attempts to tackle it. It is perpetuated, in part, by gender stereotyping. Previous research indicates that language contributes to gender inequality in various ways: Gender-related information is transmitted through formal and semantic features of language, such as the grammatical category of gender, through gender-related connotations of role names (e.g., manager, secretary), and through customs of denoting social groups with derogatory as opposed to neutral names.
Both as a formal system and as a means of communication, language passively reflects culture-specific social conditions. Furthermore, language can also be used to express actively, and can potentially perpetuate, those conditions. Tackling these issues successfully depends on a proper understanding of their cognitive and societal underpinnings, but also on understanding the effects of attempted interventions. With these points in mind, the editors of this Special Topic, in collaboration with other colleagues, proposed a Marie Curie Initial Training Network entitled Language, Cognition, and Gender (ITN LCG), to address a range of questions about language and gender inequality.
This project received funding from the European Commission’s Seventh Framework Programme (FP7/2007-2013). ITN LCG included 10 European universities in the Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Norway, Spain, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom, together with 12 associate partners in Germany, Italy, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.”
@Scotrenewables 1 56
Read the Courier 4 March 2019. Row over Dundee Rep gender policy. You will see the sign saying use the toilet you are most comfortable with etc. No mention of a requirement for a gender certificate. Of course we found out the hard way. As we were unaware of the change in toilet use policy when we bought our tickets.
Contacted MSPs as requested
Emailed my MSPs a short while ago and received an automated response from a Labour MSP with some blurb about covid making things difficult and also a very pre-prepared looking response from a Tory MSP within minutes confirming they are going to vote for the amendment.
No response from any of SNP MSPs so far though only been a few hours. I at least know one has been absolutly unshakable in they’re support for women’s rights while this trans (non)debate has rumbled on.
Good news and grateful for the confirmation from the Tory re this amendment on one hand but on the other hand leaves me with little doubt the Tories are tooling up to beat the SNP to a pulp over trans idealogy and likely the Salmond scandal come election time.
I doubt they’ll get many converts but people not voting SNP is next best thing, binned my membership a while back because of this shit and at this rate unless the current leadership are removed by May it’s ISP vote only for me. Depressing!
ScotsRenewables says:
8 December, 2020 at 1:56 pm
Sue, everything I have read indicates certificates will still exist, albeit much easier to get.
“I agree anything else – “hey pal, I’m a woman, you got a problem with that” from a hairy perv in the ladies toilet – is completely unacceptable, but as I say I believe use of women-only spaces without a transgender certificate will not/should not be possible.”
It already is – as far as I know Mridul Wadhwa does not have such a certificate
ScotsRenewables
Katie Dolatowski didn’t have one either when he was placed in a hostel for vulnerable females after committing sex offences.
There are not imagined fears of some neurotic women. It’s happening and people are just letting it happen.
It isn’t possible to make effective claims to legal rights, if you don’t have a legally defensible identity. This is a practical fact of law that appears to be hidden from our legal Establishment. So here’s a look at “Natural Law and Legal Reasoning”, which I think provides a guide as to how to approach both the proposed GRA amendments, and Scotland’s legal subjugation by English Torydum.
Treaty law underpins the international legal order, so allowing Westminster to re-interpret its’ legal obligations towards Scotland, so as to accommodate populist and xenophobic English nationalism, is simply not compatible with liberal constitutionalism. So I suppose it doesn’t really matter what our politicians do to Scots law, as it is clear it is viewed as merely customary law, and the abstract artifact of a subordinate culture.
https://scholarship.law.nd.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1078&context=law_faculty_scholarship
“….To state the basic human goods is of course to propose an account of human nature.4 But it is not an attempt to deduce reasons for action from some pre-existing theoretical account of human nature in defiance of the logical truth (well known to the ancients) that you cannot deduce an “ought” from an “is” – since you cannot find in the conclusion to a syllogism what is not in the premises.
Rather, a full account of human nature can only be given by one who understands the human goods practically, i.e., as reasons for choice and action, making full sense of feelings, spontaneities and behaviour. (So Aristotle’s principal treatise on human nature is his Ethics which is from beginning to end an attempt to identify the human good, and is, according to Aristotle himself, from beginning to end an effort of practical understanding; the Ethics is not derivative from some prior treatise on human nature.)”
I’ve broken off time from scratching on my fiddle to pull out my Oxford Concise Dictionary, 1995 edition:
gender: the grammatical classification of nouns and related words. Roughly corresponding to the two sexes, and sexlessness – masculine, feminine, and neuter.
sex: either of the main divisions ( male and female)inro which livings things are placed on the basis of their reproductive functions.the fact of belonging to one of these.
So, it does seem to me that to be concise in the wording of the Bill, sex is the necessary word to use to classify male and female.
I understand and support the need, to protect the privacy of sex defined people, male and female. Perhaps a third category of gender changing rooms and toilets to accomodate trans people is a solution?
Contacted my list and constituency MSP’s and my MP-Shona Robison-yesterday. Not a single reply. I thought maybe I had messed up so I tried again today, not a single reply. I will not be voting for SNP in May no matter what now.
Lewis McDonald and his Labour colleagues are supporting the amendment. Have long thought the top of politics, but especially the SNP, is/are strangely childless.