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Wings Over Scotland

The good, the bad and the other one

Posted on October 13, 2018 by

(We apologise for the late arrival of this week’s toon, due to MI5 on the line, probably.)

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    672 to “The good, the bad and the other one”

    1. Greg Scollin says:

      There can only be one left standing and we know who that`s going to be.

    2. Kevin Cargill says:

      Brilliant as usual. Clearly ponchos must be in short supply after Brexit!!

    3. Conan the Librarian says:

      Like the bowler on Arlene.

    4. defo says:

      Not a looker amongst them.
      Remember the days when we thought women would make a better fist of governance ?
      They’re out manning men!
      NS and a few others excepted.

    5. David says:

      Very good. I see they are claiming the lights will go out in Ireland.

    6. Morgatron says:

      Ah – good old Arlene , shes a beautiful looking man. Topping as always Mr C.

    7. Old Pete says:


    8. Street Andrew says:

      Wherever else we might be……

      ……it sure as hell ain’t the OK corral

    9. galamcennalath says:

      Indeed. High noon is fast approaching. Excellent.

      Bowler hat, orange neckerchief, and pin striped trousers. The pinnacle of Britnattery.

      Latest …. “Such a barrier cuts right to the heart of what is at stake here. The UK is one nation. There should not be international-style borders within it. “

      ‘One nation’ … not for me it isn’t.

    10. Street Andrew says:

      Government cut back mean GCHQ can’t process online traffic in real time any longer.

      Under-staffing and steam valve computer systems just don’t hack it …OOooops! Unfortunate choice of expression 🙂

      Expect online delays to become endemic.

    11. X_Sticks says:

      Tick, tock.

      Oops, Theresa’s watch seems to have stopped in 1690.

      I suspect only one of them has a loaded gun, but which one?

      You do come up with some excellent work for such a slacker Mr Cairns! 😉

    12. TJenny says:

      Footshootin’ time. 😉

    13. Luigi says:

      Boom! Blast! Bang!

      After the dust settles, which of these three lovely ladies will be left standing?

      The ugly one in the bowler hat? Naw she’s deed.

      The real bad ass with the Lee Van Cleef nose? Naw, only a matter of time.

      My money is on the Boris Johnson lookalike. 🙂

      Speaking of which, don’t forget the three-way shoot-out in the Tory part saloon (coming very soon). All for a few dollars more. 🙂

    14. Ha,ha! Love the allusion to spaghetti westerns.

      Personally, I can’t see the DUP unseating a Tory majority any time soon, Chris. Their bread and butter depends on Tories staying in power. And they’re plotting ways to stop Scotland’s attempts at self-governance – permanently. They need the Tories to enact their ‘federalism for all’ bill when that time comes. Call it Vow 2.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      The Catholic Church laid bare:

    15. BJ says:

      Do not forsake me oh my Arlene.

    16. defo says:

      Luigi. “All for a few dollars more.”
      Brexit encapsulated perfectly Sir.

      BTW, ever seen the League of Gentlemen ? 🙂

    17. Bob Mack says:

      Considering Foster is now saying that NO DEAL would be her preference over what is on offer. I would be tempted to “draw” prior to noon

      Make no mistake, Foster would rather condemn the whole of the UK to absolute chaos in order that no differential existed between N Ireland and the rest of the UK.

      If any of these gunslingers mean business it is Foster.

    18. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab Rev.Yer an awfy man, winding-up awe thae Yoons.

      Can I just say, frae ma place as yin o yer hingers-oan – yer no alone Big Man, ye’ll get hauners frae us oany time.

      When President Salmond comes to present the first Hero of the Scottish Independence medals – you, Prof Robertson and Paul Kavanagh better be in the first tranche o recipients.

    19. Luigi says:

      Foster Face has only one bullet – she better use it wisely.

      Of course, there is always the possibility probability that the Red Tory Cavalry will ride to rescue Lee VanCleef’s rescue at the last minute. They usually do. Corbyn’s hapless pose of useful idiots. If they do, hell mend em.

    20. Muscleguy says:

      I think Ms Merkel really should have a Sheriff’s badge on.

    21. defo says:

      Count me in Socrates, i’m up for a pagger. Just.
      15 secs, and i’m out. Not much lung left, but still nae fear!
      Bring your own chib?

    22. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Old style, casual sexism doesn’t cut-it anymore – and I’m not referring to Chris’s cartoon.

    23. Bob Mack says:

      Oh oh. The polis has just arrived.

    24. Valerie says:

      Great toon as per.

      @Bob Mack, spot on.

      The DUP know deep down they are only lobby fodder, not valued Tory colleagues. To Tories, they are just necessary paid thugs, and the Island of Ireland’s history is littered with examples of loyal Ulstermen being used against the Irish, in support of the British.

      The DUP would welcome a hard Border, but mustn’t be seen actually promoting it, so it’s got to be seen to somehow be imposed by the EU or Ireland.

      That’s why it’s important to refer to it correctly, as the British Border, and if they want to depart CU, they must come up with the workable solution.

      If UK takes that responsibility, it drives Irish Unity.

      A Gordian knot.

    25. Dr Jim says:

      Arlene Foster says: *We want to be the same but different*

      Angela Merkel says: *Can we all not just get along*

      Theresa May says: *Bloody rules, why do I have to deal with this Bog trotter and a bally foreigner oh how I long for the days we could just shoot them all without listening to their Jibber Jabber, they don’t even speak English*

    26. galamcennalath says:

      Luigi says

      there is always the possibility probability that the Red Tory Cavalry will ride to rescue

      Indeed. Assuming there is a Withdrawal Agreement acceptable to the EU, it then has to go to WM.

      Two big variables here are …

      – how many Tories/DUP will vote against the WA because of backstop or accompanying future framework document?

      – how many Labour will break ranks and go with the Tories?

      if Labour (all or some) are stupid enough to opt for May’s WA, they may miss the change of provoking a GE.

      WM is awash with stupidity right now.

    27. Socrates MacSporran says:

      defo @12.02pm

      Being of East Ayrshire mining stock, my weapon of choice when things get tasty is a pick-axe handle, rather than a chib.

    28. Bob Mack says:


      My background just a generation ago was staunch loyalist on my fathers side. Our family came from Cookstown in N Ireland.

      They often talk as you say of Tory betrayal at the turn of the century that conceded an Irish free State.

      I have no doubt that Mrs May sold Foster a faulty bill of goods, backed up by finance. If you do not appreciate the mindset of those “staunch “supporters of the DUP, then it is difficult to understand how intransigent they actually are.

      I cannot prove this of course ,but my instincts tell me they are preparing for conflict already ,given their paramilitary links to the UDA. They are a different breed from ordinary people and view intransigence as a positive thing rather than a fault.

      It won’t be long for the call to protect Ulster goes out ,if they are sold down the river. The stakes in this are much higher than people may think.

    29. Ken500 says:

      Foster and May bluff it out. Dumb and Dumber. Voted out by Christmas? What a gift. May tries to bribe Foster with bobbles. A pantomime. A couple of clowns. Slap stick. Utter chaos. Burning up UK public money.

    30. Takeour Blueback says:


      It’s sad to think this will be the case.

      Probably why May’s watch has stopped at 2 minutes to midnight!


    31. fillofficer says:

      if only merkel had twa pistols

    32. defo says:

      Sans 6″ nail Socrates ?
      I thought miners were hard 😉

    33. Proud Cybernat says:

      Excellent as usual, Chris. Just to say though – we actually leave at 11pm UK time which will be 12:00 midnight in Brussels.

    34. Clydebuilt says:

      BBC radio Shortbread’s “Breaking the News”
      At 11.37am were being told by a female how sexy Gordon Brown is.
      5 mins later clues as to who is in a photograph ” She runs Scotland always up for a fight” . . . Other female “she accentuates her vowels” , que crass impersonation of Sturgeon.

    35. Kangaroo says:

      Dr Jim @12:29

      Very good. I concur.

    36. Dan Huil says:

      High noon for brainless yoons.

      Nice touch to have Foster in a bowler hat.

    37. INDEPENDENT says:

      I think it is Bo-Jo not Angela Merkel, and as mentioned earlier I thik it is supposed to be “High Noon”, approaching for Treeeeza!

      Maybe Mr Cairns can confirm??

    38. mumsyhugs says:

      Which one’s which?

    39. Cactus says:

      Brexit shootout!

      Only the bad and the other one are fighting out front.

      Afternoon Chris.

    40. Colin Alexander says:

      If Scotland votes YES are we declaring independence and applying to the UN for membership and then later negotiating the financial terms of the divorce with the UK Govt?

      Or we gonnae be in limbo for years, like the above cartoon, seeking permission from those vehemently opposed to our independence?

      What’s the plan SNPers?

    41. Cactus says:

      Yer right Muscleguy, Ms Merkel should be sheriff to arbitrate the final event. This will be the time where May next tosses her timepiece to Angela, then the bad and the other one do a twinned-fire double-takeout at point blank range, as the sheriff whistles a merry tune.

      “Freebird” is on the Wireless Radio Timepiece.

      Guitar end solo.

    42. Socrates MacSporran says:

      defo @ 1.22pm

      Six-inch nails could stick. with no nails, three properly-delivered blows in the time it could take you to extract the stuck nail.


      Clydebuilt @ 1.27pm

      ‘Breaking the News’ is supposed to be a comedy programme – lighten-up.


      Colin Alexander @ 2.23pm

      Get a life ersehole, there are protocols regarding nations becoming independent. I have no doubts, given Birtannia’s penchant for waiving the rules, England will make it as hard as they can for Scotland to disentangle itself from the Union. They will stall for all they are worth, but, that will be like trying to hold back the tide.

      Once we get a majority in favour of Independence – the UK is over.

    43. Legerwood says:

      Nana posted a link on the previous thread to a report by the Washington DC-based think-tank The Brookings Institute.

      The report gives a useful overview of the situation re Brexit in the various constituent parts of the UK and in Ireland, republic of, and the implications for the UK’s constitutional set-up.

      It does, however, repeat the Borrosa claim about an independent Scotland and EU membership.

      A useful overview nonetheless and what may be a useful list of endnotes/references at the end.

      Here is Nana’s original link:

    44. Proud Cybernat says:

      “What’s the plan SNPers?”

      We do what virtually every other country that has become independent from the UK has done – set a date for independence after a YES majority support has been achieved via a democratic vote. Upon that date we become independent.

      End of.

    45. Ken500 says:

      @ Craig Murray twitter

      @ Douglas Fraser – ‘Johnston Press is not Edinburgh based’. It is based in Yorkshire

      Johnstone Press has not been able to reconstruct it’s £200Million debts. It has been put up for sale for £3Million? £197Million of debt. The plant and estate must be worth something or maybe not.

      How bad is that that £200Million of debt and worth £3Million. Unless it is the Scotsman that is worth £3Million. The ‘BBC has got it wrong again.

      The journos have put it into the ground. Sank and buried.

      Alex Salmond could get a consortium together to raise money and put in a bid. Or any other Indy supporter but they might just get the ‘title’. The name ‘Scotsman’. and not most else in assets or premises. It might not be worth it. There is always the National.

      Another one down, another one gone, another one hit’s the dust.

    46. Ken500 says:

      BBC turn it off. Unless really necessary. You will have a happier life. Not listening to that nonsense. Rise above it. Or take the consequences. Dull downed rubbish.

    47. Tinto Chiel says:

      BJ says: “Do not forsake me oh my Arlene.”

      So bad it’s good.

      Nay, sublime 😛

      And I see our own Cactus makes an appearance too.

      Do I detect a touch of creepy Mark Gatiss in the Foster phizog, Chris?

    48. gus1940 says:

      Excellent article by Ian Jack in today’s Guardian.

      It’s worth a read and if you have a couple of hours to also read the comments which reveal a lot of sensible observations by Remainers and a load of total bollocks from Leavers.

    49. Jack Murphy says:

      Here’s Ian Jack’s article in the Guardian archived:

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      It’s a Brexican Stand-off, is it not?

      The only question is, Who will blink first?

      Great one again, Chris.

    51. gus1940 says:

      Ken500 at 3.00

      As far as assets and and property are concerned re Scotsman Pubs. it was comprehensively asset stripped originally by the loathesome Barclays and their minion Brillo and completed by JP.

      First the Barclays sold off the old Scotsman offices and built a new Scotsman building beside the parliament.

      When the Barclays sold SP to Johnston Press they retained and still do, I understand, the new building which was rented to JP.

      Subsequently JP closed the Edinburgh printing operation and sold off the premises.

      JP then moved out of the Holyrood premises and relocated to almost certainly rented offices in the 1960s Orchard Brae House.

      So what assets are left – possibly the furniture and IT equipment in Orchard Brae House which may be leased which leaves us with just the 3 titles the values of which have been nearly destroyed starting with Brillo and completed by JP.

      How much am I offered for this magnificent asset?

    52. Thepnr says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Last weekend in Holyrood Park, I saw a wee girl sing her favourite Yew Choob song to Jock Scot, it was this one 🙂

    53. Cubby says:

      Has no one in the pathetic media in the UK got the courage to ask Arlene Foster just exactly what she means by saying BLOOD red lines. How are they different from normal red lines? Promoting violence?

      Also how long before we get the no surrender statement from the DUP nutters. Remember people in the UK vote for these nutters. Just another reason for Scottish independence.

    54. Robert Peffers says:

      @Legerwood says: 13 October, 2018 at 2:55 pm:

      ” … It does, however, repeat the Barroso claim about an independent Scotland and EU membership.

      The only problem with that is that Barroso was talking claptrap.

      There are several ways such a scenario could work out. Never forgetting that Scotland has a plethora of natural resources that the United Kingdom are reluctant, (for good reason), to relinquish. Under present circumstances the EU would lose those Scottish resources if Scotland is dragged out of Europe against her will by Westminster.

      However, if the EU does not accept that the United Kingdom, being a bipartite union of kingdoms, means The Kingdom of Scotland becoming the legacy member state and the Kingdom of England leaving then the EU will lose the Scottish assets anyway.

      What that leaves is the opportunity for the Kingdom of Scotland to negotiate terms with any other organisation including such as the UN & NATO, WTO or to attempt to set up an entirely new organisation. For Example one sometimes mooted in the past – a North Sea Basin Union of nations around the North Sea.

      The Nordic Nations and Scotland form a potentially powerful body that neither the EU or UK will fancy on their doorstep and that organisation would also have control of the North Atlantic strategic gap that NATO would shudder if threatened with its loss.

      I’m pretty sure the EU would be very, very pleased to either keep Scotland as a member state or to make a Scottish entry as a member state the fastest EU membership bid in EU history.

      There really is no argument to be made against that argument – the UK hasn’t been so determined to not only subjugate Scotland but to hold onto Scottish resources for 311 years for nothing.

      From the Kingdom of England’s point of view the ba is oan the slates. Thing is, when it trundles down the slope of the roof it will drop right into Scotland’s back court and Scotland can do deals that suit Scotland and whoever offers Scotland the best deals. Which, BTW, could very well be a much changed Kingdom of England. What it will most certainly not be is the USA.

    55. Cactus says:

      We are VILE, we are…





      Pure got the bag an everything, a Glasgow photoshoot may be in order… what’s that by the Bell’s Bridge southside and that to the side of Cessnock?



    56. Colin Alexander says:

      Proud Cybernat

      If I remember right, Craig Murray said most countries gain independence by declaring themselves independent not by getting permission.
      Socrates MacSporran

      Why be abusive? It’s a sensible question. As I said above, the most common means of achieving indy is you declare independence and then others recognise it.
      The current Scot Govt is a minority govt. There are nearly as many unionists in the Scot Parl as SNP MSPs ( 62/59) leaving the SNP reliant on the 6 Greens.

      When indyref was held in 2014 the SNP Scot Govt had a majority of seats.

      So, who represents the sovereign people?

      The minority Scot Govt? Unionist MSPs? Scotland’s MPs (including the Tories)? Who?

      Do we declare indy with a yes result, hold elections to the now “sovereign” (I know, it’s the people who are sovereign) Scottish Parliament and the largest party forms the Govt and negotiates the union dissolution with rUK ?

      Or will there be a unification govt formed of all parties or what?

    57. Proud Cybernat says:

      If I remember right, Craig Murray said most countries gain independence by declaring themselves independent not by getting permission.

      We get the “permission” only of the people of Scotland in a democratic vote to set our Independence Day. End of.

    58. Pete Barton says:

      @ Cubby – yes, I’ve been wondering about the ‘blood red’ lines too.

      And peace loving nations should rightfully be shunning that kind of expression.

      I do understand a little of the NI politic, red hand of Ulster etc..but I’m appalled no one has questioned Arlene on that?

    59. Sharny Dubs says:

      Another cracker Mr C!

      Do I note a slight resemblance in Merkel to Depudy Dawg??

    60. ronnie anderson says:

      Nae popcorn . Tamales hot Tamales

    61. Valerie says:

      No one will question Arlene??? Of course they won’t, they not only control the violent element, few journalists properly understand the politics.

      No one questions the UK gov’t continued use of jingoism and war references.

      The UK msm continues it’s lurch to the Right, in support of the gov’t agenda.

      Tommy Robinson on Newsnight twice.
      A Jarrow Labour Councillor, Stephen Hepburn, talking on Beeb about the “extraordinary” example the Orange Order can provide.
      Tory and just as many Labour MPs, reporting immigrants to the Home Office.

      It’s just getting started.

    62. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Thepnr 4.24: you’ve just reminded me I passed Jock Scot and his battered topper when I was heading home. Very witty song.

      It’s awful how these vile cybernat parents indoctrinate their children. There was a wee boy “kiltie” (pace Gorgeous George) in front of us on the march who delighted some American tourists by dancing along and shouting “Dump Trump!” at regular intervals.

    63. galamcennalath says:

      Xenophobes, homophobes, oppressors, misogynists, climate change deniers, human rights opponents, hypocrites, the religious right, elitists, greedy barstads … why are these groups always found skulking together under the same stone and are so often occupy the same overlapping sets within the great Venn diagram of humanity?

      “The Brexit fanatics go for broke. This is their chance of counter-revolution”

    64. Andrew smith says:

      Arlene looks like (king) Billy the kid !

    65. Ken500 says:

      Arlene Foster does not get the majority vote in Nl That is the point which many are complainting about. 200,000? She/DUP is in a minority, Pop 1.8 million. Electorate? They do not have a majority in what would have been a Stormont administration. The DUP intransigence played a major part in the Stormont administration being suspended,

      It is a different situation now than the Troubles years. Demographically Ireland could vote to reunite. If Foster crashing the economy. She could fine herself on the way out, along with May. It is only theTories propping up the unionists parties in NI for votes in Westminster. It is likely Arlene could go down with May. NI is a different place today. There is support to reunite. NI would be better off. The IR has a better economy. More successful. NI is subsidised by Westminster unionists for support. Foster is showing herself up.

      Universal, credit is a major problem. Unrolling. It is reported the Tories constituency parties can’t even get candidates to stand.

      The Tories will have to engineer a GE they can lose. That is what the unionists Parties alway do. Leave others clear up the mess. They are unable and not fit for government. Who want’s the

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      Actually, much as I too like taking the rip of Colin Alexander, his questions are sensible ones, and ones that we are going to be asked when it all kicks off, and ones that answers need to be ready for, preferably from the Scottish Government itself.

      Tha full answers aren’t available now, because at this stage we don’t know if it’s to be an S30 and Edinburgh Agreement II, or some other means, and the answers are dependent on that. If, for instance, it’s a legal and court means, that’s potentially a different route from the realpolitik route of Cameron and Salmond, unless the UK Gov rolls over, which frankly it would be wise to, and which it did do after the Miller UKSC case, which is some indicator.

      It will need a roadmap, there was one for Indy Ref 1, and it will be needed for Indy Ref 2.

    67. James Barr Gardner says:

      Seen cartoon and thought MILK, LEMONADE, CHOCOLATE !

    68. Clapper57 says:

      Funny is it not that Angela Haggerty has the gall to make a sneering remark via twitter about WOS journalistic credentials, in response to someone praising him, by tweeting “I wouldn’t call googling stuff real investigative journalism”.

      The same Angela Haggerty who praised the Scottish Tory Mp’s on a Scotland Tonight programme for standing up for the ‘Scottish’ fisherman via Brexit deal…..I would have thought that if she herself was such a good investigative journalist she would have perhaps….smelt a rat….and UNEARTHED the information that…. the ‘Scottish fisherman’ the Scots Tories were standing up for were….oh my…a monopoly of five of the wealthiest families controlling a third of Scotland fishing rights in Scotland.

      Funnily enough WOS has in the past via his posts and his twitter a/c challenged nay exposed the dubious alliance between certain Tory supporting Brexit ‘Scottish’ fisherman and the Scottish Tories…but then I suppose ….unlike Angela he was not naively taken in by this sudden uncharacteristic support by Tories for the ‘wee’ fisherman.

      I am sure WOS knew exactly why Scots Tories were ‘championing’ the ‘fisherman’s’ cause …..and with the recent information coming to light on this scandalous monopoly one is now 100% clear on the allegiance of both Tories and ‘fisherman’ sides…..follow the money.

      Pity Angela was not a good enough journalist to work this out and then investigate…perhaps she had another more pressing agenda to address.

    69. yesindyref2 says:

      Personally I think it’s almost certainly going to be an S30 and EA2, after the style of the originals. If they are witheld it goes to court, and I don;t think Brexit can go ahead in the terms of the Article 50 as that has to be in terms of the UK Constitution which would be haingong on a court hearing and judgement, potential appeals, and further potential appeals.

      If that were to happen and court proceeding be inititiated I think what we’d see is emergency sessions of the HoC and the HoL, with the first reading, second and vote, third and vote, a runner take any paperwork to any committee stages, and wait to take any paperwork to the HoL and them to do the neccessary, the runner to go back to the HoC and the HoC to do its final stuff, the runner to go to Buck Palace to the Privy Council and HRH to get the signature and then to where it goes next.

      All in 5 hours max, they’d have a new event at the Olympics called the political marathon, and a blockbuster Holyrood movie called “Scotland the Invincible” (Ⓒ ™ yesindyref2), and after the YES vote I retire filthy rich and I do mean, filthy.

    70. Scottish Steve says:

      Arlene Foster looks like Ruth Davidson’s long lost sister. Her, Davidson and May seem to form some kind of unholy unionist trinity.

    71. TJenny says:

      Well Angela Haggerty’s wee me, me, me, stroppy intrusion into WOS twitter spat has obviously caught BBC’s attention, as she announced 2 hours ago:

      ‘TONIGHT: I’ll be on @bbc5live from 11pm taking a look at tomorrow’s newspapers. Which means I’ll be sober. On a Saturday night.’
      (2 replies . 0 retweets 4 likes)

      Why? Does anyone still employ her as a journo?

    72. James Barr Gardner says:

      I see Treeza’s got a chocolate watch…..

    73. mr thms says:

      If there is a deal with the EU, the UK will leave all its EU treaties and remain in the EU during a ‘transitional arrangements’ until the end of December 2020.

      However, I have read that should there be “No deal”, not only does the UK leave all of its EU treaties, it will also leave 70 other treaties!

      I have always had a feeling the Scottish Referendum, and the EU Referendum were connected to the Treaty of Lisbon because the dissolution of the UK and the internal enlargement of the EU would fit in really well with its aims.

      So the more treaties the UK leaves the merrier for Scotland.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      going to be an S30 and EA2, after the style of the originals. If they are witheld it goes to court, and I don;t think Brexit can go ahead in the terms of the Article 50 as that has to be in terms of the UK Constitution

      Sounds fascinating. So you are saying Brexit could be held up / stopped by court action if S30 denied?

    75. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 13 October, 2018 at 5:03 pm:

      … If I remember right, Craig Murray said most countries gain independence by declaring themselves independent not by getting permission.
      We get the “permission” only of the people of Scotland in a democratic vote to set our Independence Day. End of.”

      Very well said, Proud Cybernat. Anyway, just like the BBC and the other SMSM media outlets, It isn’t what Craig Murray said but what Craig Murray omitted to say that matters in that sc scenario.

      What Craig didn’t say is that in the vast majority of the cases he refereed to which made a declaration of independence, (which is just another way of saying they were newly claiming their own sovereignty or were claiming back the sovereignty taken from them by another state).

      The bit Craig didn’t say is that in most such declarations they came after a long protracted and bloody confrontation with their erstwhile empirical masters.

      That is another sovereign state who exercised sovereignty over the state now declaring themselves sovereign in their own right.

      Now here’s the thing. The state that claims to hold sovereignty over Scotland in reality does not legally exist and factually is not a sovereign state and not even legally the sovereign monarchy it purports to be.

      Westminster acts like a sovereign state but calls itself a sovereign monarchy a.k.a. “The United Kingdom”.

      Trouble is that it is a two partner united Kingdom and as such each partner kingdom must, in order to have agreed to unify, have been equally sovereign. Not only that but the Treaty they both agreed to actually states in that agreement that the Kingdom of Scotland’s people, not their monarchy, are legally sovereign.

      So just where, in that treaty, does it grant the Kingdom of England sovereignty over the legally sovereign people of Scotland?

      Bear in mind that legally, in the Kingdom of England it is the Monarchy of England that is legally sovereign and that was written into the laws of the kingdom of England in 1688 while the treaty with Scotland was agreed in 1707 and the treaty acknowledges the people of Scotland should remain sovereign in perpetuity.

      Lastly when did the two partner United Kingdom become a four country union of countries with England as the master race?

      Which is why the Scottish government, elected by the legally sovereign people of Scotland are currently asking the international courts to consider that very claim after the Supreme Court of the so called United Kingdom failed to contest the Scottish Claim of Right that dates back well before the Treaty of Union but has been reaffirmed several times since.

      Is there anything in that explanation that, while long and involved, is not clear and easy to understand?

      Anyone got any reasonable points to make to disprove the facts?

      If so lets wingers debate them.

    76. Croompenstein says:


      Why? Does anyone still employ her as a journo?

      TJ, same reason they employ Loki.. 🙂


      *I was hoping we’d be independent before this…

    77. yesindyref2 says:

      I think it could, potentially. We may get more of an idea after the soon to come UKSC ruling on the Holyrood EU Withdrawal Bill (and any potential appeal), and then the ECJ on the Brexit cancellation thing.

      Salmond was a realpolitik statesman, Sturgeon’s background ls Law, and in Wolffe she has a perfect advocate, as he was desperate back in the 90s, apparently, to test stuff about Scotland in court.

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      Just adding to that, it’s undeniable that Scotland has our own Law, and that is also clearly part of the UK’s Constitution.

      It’ll be funny indeed if all the discussion in Wings – RP, Legerwood (best wishes), Liz g, Meg M, yourself, myself and RJS and all the others, turns out to be the essential factor. And a kick in the teeth for those trolls who wish to undermine our legal establishment.

    79. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 19:30,
      yesindyref2 @ 19:07, 19:52,

      I have argued the same in the past, and I don’t see any change in circumstance. S.50 requires that a country must secede in accordance with its own constitution, so if any Brexit-related constitutional issue is “live” before courts anywhere, the process must necessarily stall until the issue is settled.

      And of course if the issue is settled in favour of a Scottish exception (less likely given the demonstrated unwillingness of the UKSC in particular to venture into matters “political”, but still, not entirely impossible), Brexit must stop completely in its tracks.

      In that circumstance there is indeed the possibility that a quickie deal could be cooked up between the SG and UKG.

      Which might even – dreaming along now – not be a rapid S30, but instead a total separation deal, a “quickie divorce” Las-Vegas-style to allow EngWaNiLand to proceed on its merry way unimpeded.

      Dreaming aside, the exit process could get seriously stalled, since one issue (I seem to recall) is already on its way to the ECJ, and others may follow.

      Could the UKG then easily bluff its way out of this one, in time-honoured fashion? Would the EU27 let it?

    80. robertknight says:

      Angela: “Are you going to pull them pistols, or whistle The Sash?”

    81. Macart says:

      Heh! Neatly done Chris. 🙂

    82. If the price of Brexit was Scottish independence, 77% of English Conservatives would be willing to pay it.

      If the price was the collapse of Northern Ireland’s peace process, 73% of them would likewise be content;

      among leave voters in Northern Ireland, who are overwhelmingly unionist, that figure rose to 87%,

      while 86% thought a yes vote in a second Scottish independence referendum would be a worthwhile price for Northern Ireland to leave the EU.

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2018 at 8:01 pm:

      ” … It’ll be funny indeed if all the discussion in Wings – RP, Legerwood (best wishes), Liz g, Meg M, yourself, myself and RJS and all the others, turns out to be the essential factor. And a kick in the teeth for those trolls who wish to undermine our legal establishment.”

      I’m not kidding, yesindyref2 that I learned all this stuff from an old semi-retired Kings Council way back when I was still a schoolboy. I used to trail round the many second-hand bookshops and pawnbrokers and such like in the late 1940s. On good days if I had bought an old book I would go into Greyfrier’s graveyard where it was always quiet and peaceful and read. The old guy would often be there also reading and he struck up a conversation about a book about Scottish battles I was reading.

      Turned out he was a Scottish Nationalist and he was to tell me lots about the legal structure behind the history of Scotland. Not one single thing that old man said has been proven wrong and that’s going on 70 years ago.

      I’ve been pushing that legal history all my adult life. Have you any idea how frustrating that has been? Particularly when trying to get the truth across to dyed in the wool nationalists.

      The point is that the facts are indisputable but until enough Scots accept the truth that they really are legally sovereign and act upon that sovereignty together by backing a Scottish political party in government by giving them a majority mandate there is no way to officially exercise our legal entitlement.

    84. Chick McGregor says:

      Ach Chris, you missed oot Fluffy, The Man with no Shame.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath / @RJS
      I might be reading too much into it, but I think it’s all been part of a deep plan, taking advantage of the no-lose Miller case (Independence doesn’t care about Sewell but it represents the devolutionists who didn’t support Indy) to kick it off.

      But it would have to be a referendum though, to test the democratic will of the Scottish people, and probably legally, the UK can’t just kick us out, nor could the Scot Gov or even Scot Parliament agree, without consulting us, the people, or it could be taken to court.

      The EU too is stuck in the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, so it has to observe its treaty and member state laws which enact it.

    86. Bob Mack says:

      At the rugby final at Old Trafford tonight the crowd are chanting the name of Tommy Robinson. How very sad. I’m sure his application to join UKIP will raise their vote Base.

      England is lurching dangerously to the far right and truly I hate everything about it. We must be free of them before that happens.

    87. Ian Brotherhood says:

      There’s that old joke about the guy on his deathbed and the wife’s there…

      ‘Sandra, you were with me when Clydebank was blitzed…you were with me when I got my jotters from the yard…you were with me when I got knocked down by that tractor, an ye’re here with me right at the end. Sandra, hen, ahm startin tae think you’re a fuckin jinx.’

      Whoever’s giving Angela Haggerty work these days might want to think about that one.

    88. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 20:56,

      Yes, there is little political downside for the London Regime to jettison their North British “spongers”. Could even raise cheers from rather more people than rabid xenophobes due to the sourgrapes effect.

      There would be a downside economically, though, which the UKG must be acutely aware of, despite all its propaganda about being our “sugar daddy”. =cough=

      Also a downside for the entire English Establishment, a considerable loss of face, much worse than losing their former overseas colonies.

      Two major hurdles, but both the Tories and Labour seem obsessed about appeasing the Leaver populace of England, so if things get tight enough, who knows…?

    89. TJenny says:

      Croomps – aye and aye, sigh. 🙁

    90. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2018 at 9:07 pm:

      ” … But it would have to be a referendum though, to test the democratic will of the Scottish people, and probably legally, the UK can’t just kick us out, nor could the Scot Gov or even Scot Parliament agree, without consulting us, the people, or it could be taken to court.”

      All true but you missed a trick. Thing is it would be very, very chancy. That trick is to slip in a very carefully worded small item into a pre-election manifesto. Then upon winning the election the SNP, with probably a help from other pro-indy parties. Claim a mandate was given on that manifesto promise. It does have the advantage of the traditional party manifesto promises they never make good on.

      However, taking into account that the people are legally sovereign it would legally stand.

      The big danger is those soft Britnats who we know voted SNP for Holyrood but not for Westminster for their own selfish reasons of taking advantage of the good things the SNP have done might forgo their support for things like free prescriptions to maintain their Britishness.

      They are, though, like myself, a dying faction in the equation and time alone will take care of that. It is, though, very hard to know what the figures are of how much of the more elderly are indy and how many Britnats.

      Going by the video footage of AUOB marches there is a large proportion of more elderly marchers for Indy.

    91. Dr Jim says:

      You can’t debate with a monkey:

      You can’t debate with British nationalists because just like Kezia Dugdale admitted on telly *There are NO circumstances in which she would vote for Independence* NO circumstances!

      In that statement what Kezia Dugdale did was to confirm that British nationalists are total and mendacious idiots and no one should ever even bother to talk to them again, and in the case of Dugdale anyone with that type of mindset should have no place representing people in Scotlands parliament

      Kezia demonstrates the British nationalist view clearly and concisely that they are beyond flexibility of thought and reason

      Two people in the road facing an oncoming car the British nationalist won’t push you out of danger, so you both die

      Now I may be indulging in Absurdum Redundum but it is always always the result of debating with monkeys, inevitably they will throw their Poop at you and there are NO circumstances in which they will not

    92. Robert Louis says:

      I see that haggerty lass on revs twitter, is making it abundantly clear which side of the independence campaign she is on.

      Well, at least we all know now. No remaining doubt.

    93. Bob Mack says:

      Everyone remember when the new media supporting independence arose prior to the actual vote?

      Every one of them, Loki, Haggerty, Bella et Al wanted to be the main voice of independence and recognised as the vanguard in the endeavour. A chief among chiefs.

      Sadly, real life does not often match your wishes and the Rev became the pivotal figure for the independence fight. Deservedly so. Since that time all the others have been targeted by Unionists interests, and have all succumbed to the pieces of silver.

      They failed to promote themselves then, and they are still failing, because to them independence is about creating a financial opportunity for themselves.

      Looking at the success of the Rev must make them sick.

      If they were anywhere near as good they would have thrived.

      Jealousy whether personal or professional is never a good look.

    94. sassenach says:

      Bob Mack @ 9-12pm

      It was a Cup Final rugby match between two long-standing rival teams (barely 10 miles apart), and you think that supporters were chanting a political slogan?? You obviously don’t understand the locals!!

      The chant was “Warrie, Warrie, Warrington”, nowt to do with Tommy!

    95. Phil says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      13 October, 2018 at 9:27 pm

      “Going by the video footage of AUOB marches there is a large proportion of more elderly marchers for Indy.”

      There are. There is. We will be there for Scotland and Scots as long as we are able.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 9.15pm

      For a self admitted uneducated person *Captain Haggerty* calling all who contribute on and to WOS *Yer Da* proves beyond the shadow of doubt the woman is completely delusional as she must believe she has an inate intelligence superior that the rest of the population are denied

      Captain Haggerty is what I loving like to call a *walk off*
      that is to say before God sends us down to experience life on earth we queue up to receive the much needed intellect to survive, Ms Haggerty just up and walked off

    97. Polscot says:

      Bob Mack says:
      13 October, 2018 at 9:12 pm
      At the rugby final at Old Trafford tonight the crowd are chanting the name of Tommy Robinson.

      Some people stating that the crowd were actually singing in support of Warrington “oh Warrie Warrie, Warrie Warrie Warrie Warrington”. I watched a clip on twitter and couldn’t decide either way, but it would seem to be rather odd that in a Super League Grand Final that a whole section of fans would suddenly start a chant for a far right wing extremist.

      It seems that (again on twitter) the main people promoting the idea that the fans were singing in support of the extremist rather than their team are themselves unionist extremists from Belfast and their ilk.

    98. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:


      Jealousy and Envy. The RevStu has what they thought was theirs, and he also has what they want but will never achieve.

    99. galamcennalath says:

      Breaking, Foster says she regards a no-deal Brexit as the “likeliest outcome”. Perhaps that gives an indication of DUP intentions,

    100. Gfaetheblock says:

      Bob Mack @ 9.34

      Loki, had a terrible time post referendum. Just a prize winning author, QT panellist and now has a show on the BBC.

      I am sure he is consumed with jealousy!

    101. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dr Jim –


      The story of how certain individuals in the Indy/Yes movement prospered – yea and verily, they scattered their seed over the multitudes and those seeds did become books and sit-coms and mini-series and they did win prizes (and it was good) – will all come out in the wash some day.

      Not that I ‘know’ any of it for sure, but we’re all grown-ups here and capable of making educated guesses.

      (It’s not my place to go fingering people. Rock’s already cornered that market!)

    102. Cactus says:

      Burp of the now.

      Gaun clubbin’

      Yes2 time.

    103. Thepnr says:

      Corporal Haggerty gets all her scripts from George Galloway.

    104. TJenny says:

      galamcennalath – and Stuey also has thousands of us ready and willing to give him support if/when he needs it.

      What do the simpering, mealy mouthed me, me, me crowd have but an eagerness to be exploited by media yoons. They’re just wee narcissists, who’ll never, ever have Stu’s forensic ability to debunk lies coupled with an entertaining, wicked way with words.

      Jealousy and envy writ large from them.

    105. Cactus says:

      Staggerin’ aboot Glasgow like…

      Yes bar 1st, ra Solid then ontae ra Admiral Starbar.

      Fracking frack England, hey U crazy fucks!

      Scotland is good.

    106. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Gfaetheblock says: 13 October, 2018 at 9:57 pm:

      Loki, had a terrible time post referendum. Just a prize winning author, QT panellist and now has a show on the BBC.
      I am sure he is consumed with jealousy!”

      Here’s a wee thought or two about that post.

      I’d no idea about whatever prize of authorship was, Gfaetheblock, so I googled, “Loki”. Go try it yourself – I’m no wiser.

      QT panellist on BBC and having his own show on the BBC. Aye! So did Jimmy Saville.

      If you seriously believe that being on BBC Question time and getting your own show on the BBC is a great recommendation then it says a great deal more about you than it says about Loki.

      Seriously go to Google and simply type in the word Loki.

      You will get a great many hits but they wont be about a prize winning author with their own show on the BBC who also appears on BBC QT.

    107. ScottieDog says:

      @Bob Mack
      “At the rugby final at Old Trafford tonight the crowd are chanting the name of Tommy Robinson.”

      Didn’t see it, but whether it’s true or not, you can see the gradual coup where the right wing establishment media normalise that man in the same way they normalised Farage.

      The day after indyref1 I drove south to a monetary reform conference (yes I am that sad). I met a very wise English gentleman and we were discussing politics. His view on indyref was that it was a missed opportunity for everyone in the British Isles. We got talking about Boris (the MSM normalising another maniac by using just his Christian name). I joked about him being PM one day. The gent gave me a grave look and then remarked that there was a very good chance of Boris moving into no10. (Who’s to say it won’t happen)

      He wasn’t surprised at my incredulity but remarked that the scots are better educated. I dismissed that at the time but that conversation has stayed with me.

    108. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 42 minutes ago:-

    109. Bob Mack says:


      He’s bought and paid for to have his Record column ,his tv show,and his book subsidised by JK Rowling. Anything else rattling round your empty head?

      All after the Unionists saw the opportunity to buy a mid profile disgruntled indy figure. Lose.

    110. Cactus says:

      Frack Westminster, frack England!

      They’ve already dunnnit.

      Scotland is ready. 😉

      Challengey moi…

      Scotland soon.

      Hey Stu!


    111. Kezzia is being bailed out by the British Nationalist David Clegg of the British Nationalist Daily Record,

      British Nationalist David Clegg will be expecting loyalty to British Nationalism from Kezia or he will dump her like the British Labour Party did,

      so Kezia saying she will never support her own nation`s self determination is more to do with her fear of being dumped by British Nationalist David Clegg/Daily Record.

    112. Simon Curran says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Try Loki McGarvey. Should give you what you’re looking for

    113. Cactus says:

      Ra good, ra bad et ra fucked up uk ceremonial thing.

      Love Scotland, we are SOV…

      Breeks knows.

      Hyufd, talk.

    114. ben madigan says:

      here’s a wee summary of what’s at stake with brexit and no deal, with particular reference to the DUP and irish hunger-strikers!

    115. Gfaetheblock says:


      I think a voice coming out of the yes movement’s online community being on the main national politics debate tv show is quite impressive. Shame you don’t, though he is not on SNP message, so maybe not to your taste.

      Try googling Loki Scottish rapper, or Loki poverty safari, or Loki question time, or Loki Orwell prize.

      As a wee experiment, I googled ‘stu’ but didn’t get wings. Loki is a non de plume based on a marvel character, shocker that that is what comes up first.

      And I’ll save you a message, you think I am speaking pish, don’t you?

    116. Cactus says:

      RP knows…

      SO do you People of and frae Scotland.

      Just Love… that is all, haun yersel.

      Big fuck fur now you bitches.

      Fuck the fuckers… they know.

      Ross T, yerra tory wank.


    117. Gfaetheblock says:

      Bob Mack

      Was Sturgeon bought and sold by the record when she had a column?

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      Loki was orignally a guy, an imp from mythology, god or child of the gods depending on version, who came between the worlds with misteltoe, hence Achilles heel. Can’t be bothered looking it up. I’d never heard of him in Indy Ref 1, only after when he seems to be a person few in the YES movement would trust with a bottle of water let alone as a proponent for Indy, just like his namesake. Think Mordred perhaps in Arthurian terms.

      I wasn’t impressed when I saw him on TV, not as far as Indy’s concerned anyway. Good luck to him, he’s “made it”, but he gets blank from me.

    119. Croompenstein says:


      Was Sturgeon bought and sold by the record when she had a column?

      ‘Sturgeon’ is the First Minister of Scotland whereas Loki is a bawbag.. 🙂

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, a reply to RP went missing, I’ll try the back button see if I can find it!

    121. ronnie anderson says:

      Croompenstein 7.48 I hope nobody contributes to the Auob crowdfunder , they have a lot of questions to answer in regards to the monies collected & the way they conduct themselves online & the abuse of Yessers who ask questions .

      Dont be fooled by them Wingers .

    122. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ll try it in two parts.
      @Robert Peffers
      I got into the history in 1970 or 71, same way as a lot did I guess, Lion in the North by Prebble – an Englishman. Then on to his The Highland Clearances, then on to another of his I forget which, not as good. Then on to the Mackie of course, then others. Got side-tracked by Celtic history and Mythology.

      It wasn’t until the devo ref and ‘tinternet I started putting the history about, and got into the Treaty and Acts of Union, basically because of the Yanks on UseNet wanting to know what this devolution was all about. was a find, though the URL might have been different and it was SI (statutory instruments) rather than Acts. Sites like siliconglen, electricscotland and undiscoveredscotland, and probably that soc.culture.scottish.

      Thing is we were nutters, and it was kept that way before the www and UseNet and then groups and then blogs, but when that came along the Union was doomed, just dragging out its existence. Knowledge is power, and for hundreds of years it had been suppressed, now bit by bit it’s getting out into the open.

    123. Smallaxe says:

      In the tales, Loki is portrayed as a scheming coward who cares only for shallow pleasures and self-preservation. He’s by turns playful, malicious, and helpful, but he’s always irreverent and nihilistic.

    124. Robert Peffers says:

      @Simon Curran says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:03 pm:

      ” … Try Loki McGarvey. Should give you what you’re looking for.”

      I wasn’t looking for anything, Simon. Just to show that the guy was far from being a celebrity. Put it this way, if you don’t bother with specific Westminster Propaganda you won’t come across Loki and that says it all really.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      Part 2!
      @Robert Peffers
      The other thing is that a lot of manuscripts, diaries, papers in Scotland were destroyed. But the equivalent ones in England weren’t. Whereas for centuries they were kept hidden and basically secret because the families realised their significance, when people died more recently they were put up for auction by families that had lost the secrecy and understanding, and historians and researchers finally got their hands on them. Some Scots, but also a lot of honest English people who must have been quite shocked with what they found.

      Far from being a beneficial Union for the poor ignorant backwards Scots who couldn’t help ourselves, it was a suppression, a takeover, an empirical move, and not just about the people, but the resources.

      Like everyone I want Indy NOW, but the mood for Indy will increase whatever happems. The problem is getting it, as Bob Mack says, the establishment in England and maybe a lot of the people, are moving to the right, and that could come back to real suppression by the time Scotland has woken up. Including shutting down ‘tinterweb, or at least what comes to be regarded as “F*ke news”.

    126. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:15 pm:

      ” … Loki is a non de plume based on a marvel character,”</i?

      Hilariously funny, Gfaetheblock, the character Loki goes all the way back to Old Norse mythology:-

      “Loki is a god in Norse mythology. Loki is in some sources the son of Fárbauti and Laufey, and the brother of Helblindi and Býleistr.”

      I think that Old Norse Gods, like Thor for example, rather pre-date Marvel Comics by a wee bit more than a year or two.

      BTW: I was well aware of the Marvel Comic connection. “Never try to teach your Grandmother to suck eggs”, is a very old expression, For some reason it just sprang to mind, It also applies to Grandfathers BTW.

    127. Macart says:


      Good to see you Smallaxe. Hope you’re keeping better.

    128. Thepnr says:

      See all the da’s and maw’s behind the screen on Wings well it was them that paid for and got 330,000 Wee Blue Books into the hands of people just weeks before the referendum.

      It was one of them that established iScot magazine and has been publishing it for the last 4 years. Providing a completely different view of an Independent Scotland than you can get online. Exactly what we need to attract No voters.

      It was one of yer da’s that reads and posted on Wings who set up Independence Live after a meeting in the horseshoe bar in Glasgow with other Wingers. No we all have a chance to see things we couldn’t have before if we couldn’t be there.

      See all those Saltires with Yes on them at the march in Edinburgh last Saturday. Until 2014 they had never been seen on the streets before. Well that was another Winger who had 10,000 of them made and distributed for free through money raised by the maw’s and da’s that read this site.

      See all the shit stirrers, well what have they done other than slag off those that did get off their arse and actually do something? Oh I know they took care of themselves.

    129. Hamish100 says:

      Cactus is a big boy noo.

      He can write big and sma swear words. Why? No idea.

      Like a self centre graffiti artist they think what they have done is important not realising it seems that most folk just pass on to the next post.
      No new independence supporters as a result.

    130. Phronesis says:

      Brexit- ‘a humanitarian crisis’ that Scotland did not vote for & a political conundrum, a Gordian knot that Scotland can unravel.

      ‘It seems barely comprehensible that a democratically elected government would risk the well-being of its people in this way. Yet, the government seems in total denial. Collectively, ministers seem gripped by an unbelievable degree of optimism bias making Voltaire’s Dr Pangloss look like an incurable pessimist… The pessimistic one is that, perhaps by accident, the United Kingdom does crash out. In that case, as our analysis, and seemingly, the government’s own, shows, we can expect a severe humanitarian crisis, with widespread food shortages being one of the first manifestations’

      ‘As so often in the Brexit negotiations, this British hope will only be capable of very imperfect realisation. The clearer and more specific the Declaration is, the more it is likely to stress the economic losses implicit in Brexit… There is obviously no good answer to the layers of conundrum that Mrs. May faces in regard to the Political Declaration… The Prime Minister may well end up strangled by this Gordian knot, to the tying of which she has contributed much by her own choices’

    131. Robert Peffers says:

      “Gfaetheblock says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:20 pm:

      ” … Was Sturgeon bought and sold by the record when she had a column?”

      Good grief, could you get any more pathetic?

      Of course Nicola Sturgeon wasn’t bought and sold by the Daily Wrecker. Unlike Loki and co, Nicola Sturgeon did not compromise her political views to suit the rag as Loki obviously has done.

      I’m an old man now but I have met very few people in my lifetime who, once learning the truth about Scottish political history, have then changed their views to become British Nationalists again. Loki is one such and it isn’t difficult to figure out why.

      Mainly because their current views cannot hold water and are far too easy to prove to be utterly wrong and often just a pack of downright lies.

      Tell you what – How about you give us a comprehensive case for the United Kingdom, (which factually isn’t actually a United Kingdom. If it were then there couldn’t be a devolved parliaments and an absence of a parliament of England.

      If you cannot make the case then you have failed to prove that the so called United Kingdom is legally a United Kingdom.

      While you are at it how about you make the case for Westminster claiming that they govern Britain or that Britain or the United Kingdom are in fact a country.

      The title is, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, which does not describe a country it describe a United Kingdom and there are only two kingdoms that signed The Treaty of Union.

      Let’s hear your defence of your case. I’ve made mine often enough to have got right up your Britnat nose.

    132. Smallaxe says:

      I’m getting there Sam, thank you. I hope you and yours are well, my friend.

    133. Liz g says:

      Ronnie Anderson @ 11.34
      Totally agree Ronnie, in fact I would go further…
      This AUOB lot are bloody dangerous.
      When they said that the police over ruled the bann on using Holyrood Park, using emergency measures I had concerns that this alone would void their Event Insurance?
      But to later admit that this was a lie… I would have said that they most definitely did void their insurance!
      There’s loads of implications to that… one of which being the liability of the Stall organisers, who had at the time no idea that they were lied to.
      That’s no way to run an event.
      The fact that there’s (as far as we know) been no incident was more luck than judgement!!!
      I’m still not sure that some sort of liability is not still the case…EG I saw a lot of Scottish Socialists posters stuck up all over Edinburgh who is getting the bill for that clean up?
      Stuff like that.
      While the demand is clearly there for these rallies to take place… we are talking about the safety of tens of thousands of people, they shouldn’t be doing it on a wing and a prayer.
      They need to…as you say open it up to questions to get this stuff ironed out before something does happen.

    134. Bob Mack says:


      You might want to rethink that my friend. Luton Town fc recently had to request their fans from chanting his name , and only last month when he was watching Airdrie fc the fans were doing exactly the same thing.

      He is a hero to those with extremist views and they can be fairly extreme around Wigan. It is becoming a cult thing that others copy.

    135. jfngw says:

      I see that there is a rumour that Davidson & Mundell will resign if the DUP does not get what it wants from Brexit (not phrased that way but it’s what it really means). Do we call this the Blood Orange Red Line to differentiate it from the Blood Red Line of the DUP.

      It’s strange to see two Scottish MP’s standing up for the DUP when they have shown so little interest in standing up for Scotland.

    136. Lenny Hartley says:

      Smallaxe , great to see you posting again, hope you are well.

    137. jfngw says:

      The funniest thing I noted on twitter is someone in their bio having ‘Former Sunday Herald News Editor’. To be honest I think I’ve had drinking sessions that lasted longer than that role.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      Honest to god these filters if that’s what they are are doing my head in.


    139. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:37 pm:

      ” … I got into the history in 1970 or 71, same way as a lot did I guess”

      You were not alone.

      ” … basically because of the Yanks on UseNet wanting to know what this devolution was all about. was a find, though the URL might have been different and it was SI (statutory instruments) rather than Acts. Sites like siliconglen, electricscotland and undiscoveredscotland, and probably that soc.culture.scottish.

      Aye! yesindyref2, I was on soc.culture.Scottish and Scot politics under my old tag as Auld Bob and by the way long before Devolution raised its ugly head.

      In fact not so, “auld”, back then as the tag was an old family joke.

      There were so many Robert in the family that the younger ones got Robin, Robert or Bob.

      Next up the family tree were Auld Robin, Auld Robert or Auld Bob, then came Auld, Auld Robin, Robert of Bob and so on. I got Auld Bob before I was 22.

      And here I am on Wings still singing from the same hymn book and not a lot of it changed since I was a schoolboy. The difference is there are a great many more Scots who now, often belatedly, know the truths of Scottish history but as in my school days there are dunces in every class who stopped learning when they left school.

    140. ronnie anderson says:

      Edinburgh Auob march 100.000 + people attending £ 5725.99 ( from auob page ) no account of monies from their stall sales , the largest gathering of people from any previous marches with the least amount supposedly collected.

      As I said previously dont contribute to Auob crowdfunder .

    141. Cactus says:

      With whom has one startled…

      Hey Hamish100, still Love ye bro.

      Nae damage bud.

      Ahm a big boy Yes indeed…

      Let’s make babies…

      Hamishs’ s’cool

    142. sandy says:

      Was it the Scottish Socialists that buggered up the Last Holyrood election?

      They have to understand that they must first & foremost vote for THE Scottish Party, SNP. On independence, well, vote for any party that takes their fancy.


    143. Smallaxe says:

      Lenny Hartley,

      I’m okay Lenny, thank you. Did you miss the information that I left for you on O/T last night regarding this?

      It’s still playing up a bit and cutting out now and again but I’m sure DM Hill will get that sorted.

      Thanks again, my friend.

    144. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 14 October, 2018 at 12:13 am:

      ” … Totally agree Ronnie, in fact I would go further…
      This AUOB lot are bloody dangerous.”

      While there is a problem, Liz g it may not be exactly what you think it is.

      There was/is apparently some internal strife within AUOB and it isn’t clear just who is in charge.

      I read something about it but couldn’t decide who were the ones in the wrong.

      However it seems that a small clique was attempting to withhold details of the finances from the majority and the majority froze them out. So just who is making decisions and public announcements is not clear but apparently there were calls for resignations that were refused and that means two factions trying to be in charge. It rather seems like there are conflicting public announcements from two different sources and some might be deliberately vindictive.

      Like most new ventures there will be those seeking to personally benefit or seekers after glory but such things usually are quickly ironed out. It isn’t for me to say who is right or wrong so I won’t venture an opinion.

    145. Quinie frae Angus says:


      Haven’t posted for months on here. Lack of time and head space more than anything. But seeing some of you at the rally last weekend has fired up my enthusiasm once more.

      And I am ragin’ tonight!!

      See all this ridiculous stuff going on on Twitter, where certain “key Indy personalities” are virtue-signalling like windmills, each jumping over each other to make a name for themselves off the back of the media’s token Indy-person hireling bandwagon? With such “key pro-Independence spokespeople” taking it upon themselves to “call out” Stuart Campbell and his site’s thousands of readers, followers, crowd-funders and even curious casual onlookers?

      Telling long-term Indy-supporting feminists like myself that we are “part of the problem”, a problem which they – the self-righteous – have defined. (I.e. reading Wings, apparently)?

      Yes, that’s us these self-righteous faux-offendees are referring to. Us, a good percentage of the Indy grassroots. Wings readers. Wee Blue Book distributers. Video makers. Folk who wear out shoe leather chapping on doors; conversing in the pub and at family gatherings. Those of us who get our information from Wings: facts and figures; thoroughly researched and verifiably-sourced evidence.

      Well, it seems we are a “problem”, dear fellow Wingers. (Am I allowed to use the term “fellow”? Or have I transgressed some arsehole’s unilaterally-imposed rule where such a term is now deemed to be unacceptably sexist and intolerable?)

      These ambitious young careerists, calling us “zoomers”, “vile abusive cult morons” and the like?

      So-called Indy-supporting feminists, decrying other Indy women for having the temerity to seek information from a proven debunker of bullsh*t?

      Honestly, how blo*dy dare they? Who do they think they are?

      Well here’s the thing. Dismissing, othering, slagging and vilifying perfectly decent, politically sensitive and intelligent Indy-supporting people, just because they continue to read and appreciate the only Indy site which actually forensically dissects and debunks the utter crap, lies and obfuscation we are fed daily by the media, makes these critics look only childish, arrogant and disingenuous. Their motivations look more and more like attention-seeking shit-stirring. Difficult to believe they truly believe in Independence, or whether it’s just a convenient route to a revenue-raising platform.

      I am absolutely beelin’ about this ludicrous, hyperbolised, hysterical bawbaggery when it’s the last thing the Yes movement needs, and when these are the very last people who have the goddamn right to belittle anyone else’s choice of how that person chooses to campaign for Indy. .

      I have so much more I could vent about this. But I am two small glasses through a bottle of Cairn o’Mohr elderberry wine. And my sister’s dug needs taken for her bedtime walk.

      Please, everyone, just read @Thepnr’s post above, at 11.59 pm.

      He has absolutely nailed this.

      He has nailed the very nail on the very head.

      He has summed it up in a nutshell.

      Thank you, Thepnr.

    146. Meg merrilees says:


      Mentioned in dispatches so I felt I have to respond:

      Scots Law, as we all know, is protected ‘in perpetuity’ by the 1707 Treaty. This is one reason why the Tories are trying to fudge this ‘New Act of Union’ through the Houses as quickly as possible. The Lord in question actually said on the radio this past week that …”there is a injustice in the Constitutional settlement which they are trying to address”…

      He pretends that to mean the lack of an explicit English Parliament but he really means that ‘they’ can’t impose the Henry Vlll powers on Scotland ( take back control) owing to clauses 18 and 19:…..
      “..XVlll:… that the Laws which concern public Right, Polity, and Civil Government, may be made the same throughout the whole united Kingdom; but that no Alteration be made in Laws which concern private Right, except for evident Utility of the Subjects within Scotland.

      And again Clause 19 which specifies our legal system must continue as before:

      XIX. ‘That the Court of Session, or College of Justice, do, after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain, in all time coming, within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges, as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain;

      Aren’t these our the key arguments? Court of Session has said that the Continuity Act is legal and Wolfe is arguing that case.
      Add to that the ‘Claim of Right’ as recently acknowledged by none other than the House of Commons and it’s obvious why they want a new Act of Union.

      WM is trying to argue that Scotland voted to stay in the UK therefore that has created a new status quo where we are now part of the UK not an equal partner in a Union of two kingdoms ( RP has taught us well! ) so we can be made into ‘ Outer – England’

      The Lord in question, in his radio interview stated ( cunningly) that they don’t want a written Constitution ( why not? – because then they can always fudge things) they only want a fairer Act of Union for a more federal UK.

      Hadn’t heard of the possibility that a Section 30 being denied could hold up Brexit – bring it on. That would possibly help explain why Nicola is prepared to hold fire for as long as she dare.

      One thing for sure – the next few weeks are going to be fascinating as they unfurl.
      Who dares wins!

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      @ronnie anderson
      Firstly there weren’t a lot of bucket collectors on the march, second I don’t think stalls were that busy and I don;t think all were AUOB ones, in fact I’m certain of it, and third the publicity didn’t help trust so I doubt they got much. Even Lindsay’s crowdfunder struggled, and the word was put about about that a lot.

      The other thing is the March went very well, Keith Brown, Tommy Sheppard and Joanne Cherry saw fit to support it with their presence on stage, and others, and having talked to the police myself, a few along the way as I do, though the stalls weren’t approved by HES the police said they were going to do nothing about it.

      So, sorry, I totally disagree with you.

    148. Robert Peffers says:

      @Smallaxe says: 14 October, 2018 at 12:42 am:

      ” … I’m okay Lenny”,

      I’m Glad to hear that Smallaxe”.

      The movement towards Indy needs you.

    149. Cactus says:

      Ahm a rockin’ in anna round oor Glasgow Merchant City Hamish100.

      Where you at bro.

      To learn like.

      Ra good, ra bad and ra fucked up!

      Take a minute tae yersel, like.

    150. Cactus says:

      Good morning Smallaxe 🙂

      Tres bon bud.

      We are.

    151. Smallaxe says:

      Thank you, for your kind words Sensei Peffers. I hope you are keeping as well as you possibly can, you have been through a lot of heartaches recently that would have destroyed a lesser person. I wish you peace, love and happiness in the years to come, sir.

      Hi, Cactus, stay safe my friend.

      Good night, Wingers.

    152. ronnie anderson says:

      Yesindyref2 I didn’t say all the stalls were Auob Im well aware there are other stalls Wings Stall/iScot/Wee Ginger Dug weren’t there due to the lateness of Auob releasing the information ( not that we would be welcomed ) as they have done before with Dundee Manny Singh telling lies that stallholders had to fill in forms as instructed by Dundee city council & Manny Singh demanding money for stalls from Wings & iScot ( he didn’t get any money from us ) .

      Every one of us Grassrooters who have helped Auob wouldn’t now touch Auob with a barge pole , its a Solidarity front but hey ho disagree with me all you want I have a better insight into Auob movers & shakers & the abuse from their Acolytes towards Yessers who dare ask any questions .

      Gary J Kelly has repeatedly said they have video’s of collection buckets being counted but never show them .

    153. Cactus says:

      Ahm in ra catty’s Glasgow…

      Crazy things.

      It’s good to be anonymous…..

      Dat’s me that is.

      Rev Stu, aye will meet you one day…

      Hamish a hunner… to learn, mate.

      Been preachin’ fur years boss.

      Ra good, ra bad and ra fucked up, where are you?

      Gospel like.

      Anna don’t even believe in Jesus.


    154. yesindyref2 says:

      @ronnie anderson
      hey ho disagree with me all you want I have a better insight into Auob movers & shakers & the abuse from their Acolytes

      “Acolytes”. Oh dear. And a “mines’s is bigger than yours”.

      What I saw and was part of was a March with, choose a figure but a few including me reckoned 60,000, that confounded the Unionists and has had them frothing at the mouth, and personally speaking I don’t care if it’s organised by the Man or Woman in the Moon, it SUPPORTS INDEPENDENCE. As do I, and as do you.

      And I also saw a peaceful, well stewarded and quietly policed march that marched with a smile on its face, and put smiles on the faces of the tourists with their cameras, and passing people as well, a march where people helped people across the road including one with a mobility scooter at lights for which the police thanked us for stopping, a march which didn’t antagoniser shopkeepers or bar staff I blethered to, and a March which pushes forward Indy.

      And getting back to the stalls, a march where half the people or more, didn’t get to the stage area or stalls.

    155. Cactus says:

      Aye can see and my ayes are open…

      Fuck the fuckers, Love yerself.

      My eyes are bleeding…

      Said Dio.

    156. Cactus says:

      Sittin’ doon on that Union Street.

      Somebuddy just said to me Jimmy Pelle.

      Oui baby… Je suis like!

      She’s a Yes girl.

      La La Love xx.

    157. Cactus says:

      Sittin’ doon on Oswald Street, Glasgow.

      Talkin’ wae ra gurlz.


      Ach well, another lonely night.

      Maybe ah’ll get a girl some day…

      Aye think aye scare people.

      Till then.

      Tee hee.


    158. Cactus says:

      Ah keep gettin’ accosted…

      Everybuddy wants to wear my hat..

      An everybuddy wants to be a cat.


    159. Ian McCubbin says:

      Excellent Mr Cairns.
      My money is on Foster with a loaded gun. Boris the terrible is just not tough enough.
      While they dodge the guns at dawn we leave. Independence now.

    160. Cactus says:

      Haha, ahm in ra casino like now.

      Casino is popular tonight like.

      Now is the time to gamble.

      They let me in…

      Good start.

    161. Cactus says:

      Fuckity fuck, ahm absolutely rippin’ the tables.

      One stack an lots of blackies please.

      Remain while ur ahead.

      One is very up! 🙂

      Almost 6am.

    162. Cactus says:

      When yer up, yer up, walk away.

      £20 stake intae ra bar.

      £700 WIN!

      Party at mines Wingers hehe 😉

    163. Cactus says:

      Once ah was winning, they kept asking me for my name.

      That’s me a marked man now like, they’re watchin’

      The good, the bad and the smiley. 🙂

    164. g says:

      Hey there Cactus 🙂

      Hope you did walk away while you are ahead. Good lad.

      Cactus, the love of your life is out there.

      You will find each other =)

      Safe home pet x

    165. Ken500 says:

      @ Phronesis. Your posts are always so appreciated and so constructive. Off to look up the meaning of your name d’plume/alias. How’s that for a compliment. Politcally correct of course.

      @ Nice to hear from Smallaxe. Really it a co incidence. Just yesterday was was thinking about it Then there was a reassuring post. Such is life.

      The Edinburgh March was the biggest yet and really went brilliant. Whoever organised it was some feat of organisation, which deserved some remuneration. There would have been some costs involved of putting up stages etc. There can be expense of insurance, H&S guarantees can come with a cost, Sometimes arranging stewards and transport can be an expense. It can an expense for organisers.

      The organisers of that March did very well. They should not have to bear that cost themselves. No one would grudge them any remuneration. Organisations often pay people to organise event etc. PR people for publicity etc. They can make a lot of money professionally. These companies make £Millions. No one would begrudge organisers covering there expenses. That is pretty mean.

      Organisers/people/individuals should not have to bear that cost themselves. That is unfair. Pay for speakers and musicians or their expenses. Travel etc. There is a cost for a March. Even if a political party organisers an event tgere is a cost for it. The hiring of the hall etc. Hotel accomodation for some participant. Individual should not have to bear this cost. It can add up to £thousands. At all events of every hue. Craft fair or countries fair Oil exhibitions there is a fee for stall to cover the expense of the set up organisation, That is common practice. Just a fact of business or charitable world.

      There is a cost to organising events. No one would or should grudge any collection to cover costs or some remuneration. It can take up a lot of time and expertise. Red tape and guarantees. That is just a fact of life. People should stop complainig about it. It can become quite petty taking away from a major event. To make suggestions people are doing it for the money or remuneration not for the cause. That is disrespectful for the time. effort and money people have to put into it. Often voluntary. These suggestions are quite unnecessary and counter productive to the Cause. Some people should get over it. Not taking away from the success of the event which was quite spectacular. Thanks of appreciation should be given. Not condemnation.

    166. Ghillie says:

      Harumph. That little g was meant to be Ghillie.

      Was amazing bumping into you and fellow Wingers =)

      What a day!!

    167. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Smallaxe, ahm in autoplay mode dude.

      Taxibound HOME.

      This time.

    168. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Quinie frae Angus =)

      @ 12.55 am Well said rant! Welcome back fellow Winger 🙂

      And , Yes thepnr @ 11.59 pm IS spot on.

      It is easy to to take all that has been done for granted. All the amazing brand new things that have been set up, created and achieved within the last five years by a few folk taking it upon themselves to have an ‘If not me, then who?’ attitude.

      Thankyou thankyou!!! You know who you are 🙂 xxx

    169. Ken500 says:

      @ Cactus seriously you might need some help? Over exceeding the limit. Over excess. Watch the healthy limit to good exercise and long life. Give it a rest. People would not like to see any degression Go sober for October in November.

    170. Ghillie says:

      Cactus…because a cat’s the only cat who knows where it’s at 🙂

    171. cearc says:

      Night-night, cactus. Glad you won.

    172. Cactus says:

      Hey Ghillie on the wee g…

      Mwah… one is very HOME.

      Aye aint looking for Love, just fun ra now.

      Scotland comes first.

      Everything else is secondary.


    173. Cactus says:

      We Love you Ken500, thank you for your concern.

      Breakout 2018!

      We good.

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 30 minutes ago:-

    175. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 14 October, 2018 at 6:53 am:

      ” … @ Phronesis. Your posts are always so appreciated and so constructive. Off to look up the meaning of your name d’plume/alias. How’s that for a compliment. Politcally correct of course.”

      Here you go Ken500:-

    176. Collie says:

      I see the back biting is still going on regarding the organisers of the Indy March last week.

      I asked a couple of weeks ago if this infighting could be done in a less public forum.

      But certain individuals on Wings are continuing to use Wings as their preferred place to wash their dirty linen.

      People like Tommy Sheridan or Manni Singh don’t use this website, so we are getting a one-sided biased view of how evil they really are. They have not came on here to defend themselves, yet the abuse against them continues. We are the first to condemn any biased reporting on the BritNat media against our Movement, so we should also condemn any one sided biased views against any other individual who have no right of reply on here.

      The point I am making is , we would be hypocrites to condemn bias in one form but accept in another form.

      So, if certain individuals on here have an argument to take up with the organisers of AUOB, then say it to their faces, and not hide behind the Apron of Rev Stu’s Wings forum.

      You are dragging the good name of the Wings website into an argument that has nothing to do with it.

      So man up and give the rest of us a break.

    177. Ken500 says:

      At one of the Edinburgh Marchm2013? From the Meadows. There was SNP involvement along with others. (Alex Salmond) A YES event. Elaine C Smith was one of the speakers? If memory serves? There was music, Alex gave a speech. It ended up in the Princes Street Gardens, A unionist detracted with a flag and tried to cause a disruption. They were arrested or advised from the site. Tommy Sheridan was there marching with his wife and daughter. To great support. ‘Rock on Tommy’. A hero. He will go down in history of the Independence struggle. He fought the Polls tax and stopped warrant sales in Scotland. An aberrant practice.

      The March was organised with the necessary agreements. At the last minute. The week before. Edinburgh CC stalwarts started asking for insurance demands. Ie Insurances demands for H&S which would have cost a great deal of money. £thousands. Or the March would not go ahead It would have been cancelled. Unless someone came up with the money. The funds might have been found with some kind donation or political contribution.

      One of the Organisers, in the know, got an ‘Entertainment licence’ for £10 that was enough to satisfy the By Laws. Otherwise the March could have been stopped and cancelled, People were coming from everywhere. They had transport and accomodation booked. It would have been a great inconvience to many people if it had been cancelled. It would of course have put people going to another subsequence March or Event involving expense.

      Many people in Edinburgh did not even know a March was going on. Workers in the shops, bars and restaurants and hotels. They knew about the last one. It put the Independence Movement on the map.

      It still remains the case that marching is not for everyone. Some people just do not like flag waving or noise etc. They are more private people with not given to such public display of emotions, Or for family, work, profession or religious reason they can’t publically or politically march. They might be in a job of non tolerance or apolitical. The logistics can be difficult or people have to work or care.

      People can support in other ways. Give donations. Or time and organisation at a local level. Or just support events. Join the SNP. Which has the Organisation in place.

      Or just go out and vote. The most important thing, Going to the Polls. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

      Some people do not realise that the reason that the SNP Gov can do such good things for Scotland. The SNP is funded by the members (Other donators) that means the SNP Gov can govern freely. They can do the right thing.for all concerned, Balance up the possibilities. Then make the right decision. They do not have to appease bankers, big business, lobbyists or Trade union leaders. Each with their own agenda.

      All the other unionist Psrties are corrupted by illegal donation and dark funding. This leads to the corruption seen at every level of the Westminster Gov political system. Most of them should be in jail for lies, theft, embezzlement and killing and maiming millions of innocent people. At home and abroad. They are a load of freaking chancers. Psycho bastards. Just look at the Westminster line up of dumb folk mucking up the economy.

    178. Robert Louis says:

      Thepnr at 1159pm,

      Very well said. I too an mighty sick of certain nobodies making names for themselves, yet regularly slagging off people like REV STU. The indy movement is a broad kirk, and of course not everybody agrees all of the time. But those who go on social media to just endlessly lie about REV STU, are really the lowest of the low.

      I don’t agree with everything Stuart Campbell says, but I mostly do. However, that is almost irrelevant, since I can recall when he set this site up. Hiw writing was like a breath of fresh air, it is incisive, well researched, and of a very high standard – a standard which those who spent yesterday screaming abuse at him could never attain.

      In particular, I especially get very angry at the fools who call him homophobic and transphobic. In my opinion he is neither. Indeed, in my opinion he is quite correctly questioning the current hateful totalitarian transgender propaganda. I am gay, and he has raised many questions which I and many other like me are starting to ask ourselves. So, just by asking LEGITIMATE questions, he is not transphobic.

      Anyway Thepnr, Your comment last night summed up many points I would make myself regarding specifically the independence movement, and Stuart Campbell’s place within it etc.. So I hope you do not mind if I quote it again here;

      QUOTE ” See all the da’s and maw’s behind the screen on Wings well it was them that paid for and got 330,000 Wee Blue Books into the hands of people just weeks before the referendum.

      It was one of them that established iScot magazine and has been publishing it for the last 4 years. Providing a completely different view of an Independent Scotland than you can get online. Exactly what we need to attract No voters.

      It was one of yer da’s that reads and posted on Wings who set up Independence Live after a meeting in the horseshoe bar in Glasgow with other Wingers. No we all have a chance to see things we couldn’t have before if we couldn’t be there.

      See all those Saltires with Yes on them at the march in Edinburgh last Saturday. Until 2014 they had never been seen on the streets before. Well that was another Winger who had 10,000 of them made and distributed for free through money raised by the maw’s and da’s that read this site.

      See all the shit stirrers, well what have they done other than slag off those that did get off their arse and actually do something? Oh I know they took care of themselves.”

    179. Ken500 says:

      Thanks for that Mr Peffers up to the minute as usual.

      The ground breaking News is spectacular. What a bomb shell.

      It looks like May and the Tories might not last until Christmas. What a great early present thst will be. A bonanza.

    180. Capella says:

      Some interesting overnight posts. Glad to see Quinie frae Angus and Smallaxe back. And Thepnr’s excellent post at 11.59 about Wingers’ contribution to the Independence movement through WBB distribution, Independence Live, YES flags, iScot et etc.

      All in response to Ms Haggerty’s sneering remarks on Twitter and Joyce Macmillan’s surprise that anyone follows Stu. That comment sums up the dire state of Scottish journalism and explains why these individuals are favoured by the MSM. As Chomsky pointed out to Andrew Marr, if they didn’t think the way they do they wouldn’t be given a platform to broadcast. There’s no need to censor an establishment lackey.

      Also, ronnie has posted about the organisers of AUOB which raises issues about ownership of the YES movement. Plenty needs to be sorted out there, including the ownership of public space.

      Just as #SNPCivilWar fizzled out like a damp squib after gallons of mirth were poured over it, let’s ignore the narcissism of the radical common sense brigade and just stay on course. The political temperature is rising as BREXIT deadlines approach. The Unionists would be delighted if we all wasted time and energy fighting each other. They may even be helping that process along with a few agents provocateurs chipping in.

    181. Dorothy Devine says:

      Good morning all!

      Smallaxe , so glad to read you! You have been missed.

      Quinie frae Angus m a most excellent post wuth which I heartily concur.

      Cactus , I know you are abed now , may I say I admire your stamina! Having met , you buy briefly ,I am sure there is a young lady out there perhaps with feathers in her hair, more than ready to chuck you over her shoulder and claim your scalp – in the nicest possible way!

    182. Colin Alexander says:

      Perhaps the biggest failure of devolution, for which the whole political set up in Scotland must bear blame (that’s politicians of every party), is that Scots Law remains little changed from the Scots Law in 1707.

      The legal aid system in Scotland is abysmal. Better than England’s perhaps but, that’s like the pot calling the kettle black.

      The Scots Law legal system we have offers justice – for those who can afford to pay.

      Scots Law remains an antiquated relic of pre-Union Scotland, forcing people to rely on legal experts to decipher antiquated legal language and procedural rules that favours concealment of the truth.

      When the Union was agreed, Scots Law did not defend the rights of ordinary Scots, it defended the rights of lawyers and the legal system and the Presbyterian Clergy. Justice for the ruling classes.

      Things have changed so much over 300 years but Scots Law failed the common people then and has continued that tradition for over 300 years, despite 20 years of devolution.

    183. Robert Louis says:

      This is an important piece of writing by Kevin McKenna. Agree with EVERY word. EVERY word.

      Let us hope the current leadership do not end up emulating the grand old duke of york. They will never recover.

      I am rightly concerned. Time is soon coming for the SNP leadership to either put up or shut up, IMHO.

      LINK here;

    184. galamcennalath says:

      “How to Win a Brexit Vote: The Parliament Arithmetic Facing May”

      This is the significant part ….

      ” … the goal is not just to win by one or two votes — but do so with a comfortable majority … That would mean not just a lot of Tory lawmakers voting for it, but the Northern Irish Democratic Unionist Party and a significant chunk of the Labour Party, too.”

      And know what? I reckon Labour will, one way or another, give May her victory.

    185. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Louis says:

      This is an important piece of writing by Kevin McKenna.

      If I didn’t believe Nicola has a plan, and is indeed on top of things, then I would agree with the article. However, it is based on one interpretation of SNP leadership behaviour, and there is another that cards are being played very close to chests.

      When the starting pistol is fired, everyone knows that campaign will be totally asymmetrical. It will largely be state power and influence versus grassroots. Surprise and swiftness of action will help our cause.

    186. Robert Louis says:

      galamcennalath at 0842,

      Sad to say, I think you are right. Labour will step in to save the day for Theresa May. One of many reasons I would never contemplate voting Labour again.

    187. ronnie anderson says:

      Robert Louis I see you Have read Manny Singh’s post [See all the shit stirrers, well what have they done other than slag off those that did get off their arse and actually do something? ] Try reading some more of his older post on F/B & his other F/B account under Rancid Tom . Singh/Mackay/Kelly are a liability to the Independence movement with their Lies & Deceit

    188. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ever since, over 20-years ago now, when he was still Sports Editor of Scotland on Sunday, he done me wrong, I have disliked Kevin McKenna.

      His rise to his current eminence among Scottish opinion-formers has continually amazed me – he has no discerbible talent, other than an ability to brown-nose the right people to get on.

      His various columns, in different media outlets, have demonstrated the folly of spreading not a lot of talent too-thinly.

      But, in his Observer piece of today, he is correct – Nicola needs to get her finger out and set the Independence referendum timetable.

      We will never again have as good a chance, against as disorganised and badly-led a Unionist rabble. We cannot let this chance slip.

      And while I am on a roll. Even Colin Alexander has got it right today, Scots Law and more-so Scots lawyers are a fifth column we will have to sort-out.

      I need to go and lie down.

    189. Ken500 says:

      Any detractors who criticise Rev Stu or Wings, are on to a hiding to nothing. They will get called out too. Revealing their total ignorance of one of the greatest asset the Independence movement has ever had. Wings Not just for the great analysis. Second to none. The showing up of the opposition. In a total uneven playing field of power base in the struggle for justice, The exchange of views and information among the commentators.

      The Rev Stu is a genius setting up one of the most influencial websites in the frame. With more viewers and commentators of any others. Not only a great source of properly researched information but as a vehicle of information exchange between others. All for a small donation. Sheer genius.

      Those that make imbecile, petty, untrue comments about ‘Wings’ deserve all they get. Some of the ones who complain the most about the insults or direct language in exchanges. They are responsible for making the running. Displaying the exact same behaviour but choosing to ignore the part they play in it. Kettle Black. Hypocrites, ‘Sticks and stones can break bones but names’. If they don’t like the heat stay out of the kitchen. Instead of irrationally not stating the obvious.

      Wings is so influential thst is why some people do not like it. It calls out their inadequacies, Some people’s pomposity and high opinion of themselves. Shattered. Often folk telling lies. The chief weapon of the unionists procastinators. Trying to pull the wool over the general public. Trying to take over the airwaves and the streets unfairly, because they hold control over the attributes, but things are changing.

      The imbalance of organisation of political power (aka Westminster) lined up against fairness in Scotland/UK and the Independence Movement. The sheer intolerance and the intransigence of the Westminster unionist Gov. They try to keep Scotland is a box of their control. It is like being a hostage to fortune in the whims of a group of dangerous incompetents without a clue or plan. Unrational,

      Thanks Re Stu for all you do. Having to deal with stuff. Thanks a Billion for all you do standing up for Scotland.

      Prof Robertson and others as well. Thanks to Nanna with the ace links. Invaluable.

    190. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 14 October, 2018 at 8:35 am:

      ” … Perhaps the biggest failure of devolution, for which the whole political set up in Scotland must bear blame (that’s politicians of every party), is that Scots Law remains little changed from the Scots Law in 1707.”

      You comment very like a slightly more verbose Rock, Colin.

      I wonder why that might be.

    191. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking news-29 minutes ago:-

    192. Col says:

      A few years ago I saw Kevin Mcenna in the restaurant I was working with at the time. He was with the former Glasgow Lord provist I think it was. A female, forget her name and a couple of other labour MSP’s. Very cosy.

    193. Ottomanboi says:

      KEVIN McKENNA gets to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Enough dithering, or else……
      ’nuff said, ‘cept time really is fast running out.

    194. ronnie anderson says:

      Collie ( I dont hide behind anyones apron strings ) Like many Yessers We had taken issues up with Auob only to be subjected to abuse from the Dictatorial & Bullying Manny Singh/Mackay/Kelly . Had that crowdfunder for Auob Not been put up on Wings I would have been quite happy that Auob had never was never mentioned on this page , as it now is I am informing Wingers as to the chancers who think they lead the Grassroots movement , if you have been paying attention to Auob postings on F/B in the last week you will have seen Gary Kelly challenging SIC as to which is the most popular group .

      Im not a keyboard warrior . Im like many Winger’s & Yessers A Doer & unlike Manny & Co we dont get expenses for our Doing .

    195. Bob Mack says:

      If Mrs May survives this week, imagine a situation where the SNP could vote to maintain the transition period for the UK in the EU.
      Voting against it would be the DUP, and all the Tory rebels.

      Negatives—seen as voting to support Tories. Might well delay an indy ref decision.

      Positives– The English public would demand our separation because we are forcing them to stay in the EU.
      We remain in a customs Union protecting jobs and business for at least two years.

      It is these decisions the SNP have to make.

      What would you do in those circumstances?

    196. Ottomanboi says:

      @Socrates McSporran
      Scots Law is another unionist, historic fiction. In practice, in things that really matter, the law of the UK ie English Law prevails. The socalled Supreme Court embodies that principle.
      Reform after independence is a necessity.

    197. Clydebuilt says:

      Bob Mack @9.50 I can see Labour MP’s making sure there are sufficient “Rebels” to ensure SNP votes don’t count.

    198. Proud Cybernat says:

      Was the 2012 ‘Edinburgh Agreement’ worth the paper it was written on? And will an EA2 be likewise? Some legal opinion:

    199. Marcia says:


      I get annoyed when people tell me what I should not be reading. The Rev has his opinions on certain subjects and I retain my own. It is called choice.

    200. Iain mhor says:

      There’s a lot of bubbling about people I don’t know. I assumed they were all somehow important people and I was naively uninformed. So I had a look around. Nope. No-one of any relevence, talking heads of the MSM which I already eschew. So that was a bit boring.

      Some bubbling about the AUOB marches. Someone appears to be have been ‘organising’ them, so I’ve heard. No idea who. Good luck to them, that’s their affair. A march is the marchers affair and none of their concern. Why I would trouble myself about the ‘organisers’ I have no idea.
      Marches needn’t be “officially” organised, nor have permissions or police and local or even national government liason. Anyone can march if they care to. 10’s of thousands may march wherever and whenever they choose to. I believe there is an historical precedent or two for that in global history.
      But it was nice to be nice and someone decided to ask I dare say.
      Though how anyone supposes so called organisers can be held responsible for marchers or vice-versa is beyond me. Who do you lift for that? Probably the “official organisers”, easier to fit in a van. Nae luck.

      Funny thing though, I’ve never heard of any of these people, so if I were asked who organised this march? I’d have to truthfully say ‘err my mate who told me about it who said it was a march for independence’
      As far as I know, he has never been anywhere near an email to the Police, Edinburgh Council, Holyrood or anyone else and nor have I. Just marched through Edinburgh without any permission from anyone at all and certainly never asked for any.
      Not a member of ‘AUOB’ whoever they are and not covered under their marching insurance and dental plan. Don’t think I’m on a list of their official marchers either. Didn’t notify them and certainly didn’t receive any laminated pass on a lanyard or plasticy bangle thing.
      So yeah, a mate organised it and I’m not bubbling to him about it.

    201. Clydebuilt says:

      Robert Louis. Which side do you think Kevin Mckenna is on. His articles for the Independent and the Herald are either anti SNP or just aimed at making life difficult for the party.
      In the National he’s invented a great wheeze of writing joke columns, so he can avoid having to say anything positive about the SNP.
      All this week the media have cottoned on to last week ends marchers wanting Independence Now. Using this to engineer a problem for The SNP.

      If MK says jump, I’ll be keeping both feet on the ground.

    202. Ken500 says:

      Nicola and the SNP will chose the right time and date for it. She has won the right to. Not the distractiors. She will set the time and date when it can be won, it might not be among the chaos of the Tories because they could be gone soon. There might be more progress among a different administration. Some people might vote NO precisely because of the impending chaos. Until Brexit matters become clearer and the effects of any settlement. That is only good sense. The SNP are still in control of the Holyrood Gov. Still mitigating for the immediate future. By Christmas it will be clearer.

      Christmas /winter is not a great time for political csnvsssing and campaign. People are distracted with other matters. The weather is not favourable. It’s OK for the armchair critics but not for the canvassers and campaigners pounding the streets. Scotland can rejoin the EU any time with negotiation, They would be welcomed. The EU members of the Commission have stated it. Scotland has already started to go it’s own way in any case. To act canny for now.

      Does anyone really believe Nicola can stand up and say, without consultation,or consideration because of the Brexit delays. Scotland will have an IndyRef in February. It takes logistic organisation to hold the vote. Setting up the Polling plsces and the staff. The cost and mechanics.

      It means it would more likely be Autumn 2019, with consultation and the Polls etc. In the summer people are busy with hols and childcare. Although it is good for canvassing and campaigning. Can’t wait.

      Some folk have a bet on the 2019. Hope it will win. They lost bets and money on the IndyRef big time. The GE returns and result. The bookie called it right and fleeced people. Along with the Pollsters deliberately? Some people will still put a bet on the IndyRef when it is called, ‘to win’. They probably will not take bets on it just now. We will see.

      Nicola and Co have won the right to decide the timing. When to call the IndyRef. There is a three year mandate. yet. The Brexit delays have influenced this. The indecision. It is better to call it when it can be won with support increasing. One thing Nicola seems to be concerned sbout. Is to not repeat the disappointment that people felt at the last one. It seemed to affect her badly as well but she got over it. The euphoria and then the letdown. People have recovered and been refreshed now.

      Why do people get so hyped up by not waiting a few months or a couple of yesrs in order to succeed. When Scotland has waited nearly 100 years. It is better to win a victory. It would still take a while to change over all the powers, administration and finances. Quite a few years.

      Nicola and Co as part of the Gov have earned the right to call it. They have the responsibility. Everyone should come togetter to support that. Not to be influence to call it and lose it by a whisper.and a load of misplaced unionist lies. Now appreciated by many people. The betrayal. It was close the last time. Just lost by a whisker.

      Like some McKenna is a closet unionist who does not care about facts. Does not even look them up. No credible research, Sitting on the fence. Just keep spouting nonsense to keep the affluent lifestyle and cabbage on the table. They will be surprised when the tsunami hits their lifestyle and cost of living. Already happening. Not to allow the unionist to push before you jump. The unionists trying to obtain control over the narrative and the upper hand.

      Patience is a virtue. Things are going well. The Tories are imploding. Losing support. The Scottish economy is thriving, There is everything to play for. People would love an IndyRef to be called. They would love it to get involved right now. They can be politically active and involved in the movement at present. It might be better to wait a few months. Just to enable a balanced judgement is expedient. In a fast moving events situation. ,

    203. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Great posts worth scrolling back to see, if you missed them last night – Thepnr @11.59 and Quinie frae Angus @12.55


    204. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:

      What would you do in those circumstances?

      I think the SNP should stick to the red line of “in the single market” and if that isn’t forthcoming, move to IndyRef2. Vote against every other outcome.

      There’s a lot of propaganda slushing around trying to sell customs union as a soft Brexit. It isn’t.

      Turkey is in customs union with the EU … it’s a long way short of single market or full membership.

    205. galamcennalath says:

      Kangaroo says:

      Posted without comment

      The writer is confused. He has been influenced by the Tory plan to replace the backstop with a future trade agreement, and the propaganda to that aim.

      He claims of the backstop “despite the fact that it would be explicitly nonbinding”. Wrong.

      That’s the problem for May. The backstop is part of the Withdrawal Agreement and will be legally binding. It is intended to be a backstop, unsurprisingly, to kick in if all else fails.

      The author seems to think it’s part of the future framework for trade, which is non binding.

      However, having said the author doesn’t understand the situation, he might well be right about failure.

    206. Ken500 says:

      @ Marcia

      What are you on about, No one mention you. Or told you what you should be reading. You are doing exactly what you are critising, You do not have to read it,

      It is folks telling people not to read Wings and dissing the readers and supporters, that is being discussed. Any people can read anything. That they want That is just the point. Or people telling others what is available. or permitted Why they support it or not. People have a right to defend. when they are attacked. Or defend the person running the site that they support for good reason. That is freedom of speech.

      Or desist from unionist trolls on the site which they are out to destroy. Just as they have destroyed all other sites. Bettevto have one site that supports Independenve. Considering the total collective power of opposition lined up. Totally out of proportion from elsewhere.

    207. Ottomanboi says:

      This from Craig Murray, who is rather more sanguine re Sturgeon’s intentions, merits deep thought.

      [MI6 recruited Sergei Skripal as a ("Tractor" - Ed) to Russia, who for money revealed secrets of his nation to MI6, including identities of agents. That is the root of the Salisbury events, and it is not the sort of thing an Independent Scotland will be doing. If an Independent Scotland is just going to behave like the UK in foreign affairs, carrying on neo-con foreign policy by illegitimate methods, I see no point in Scotland being independent. The Skripal affair, whatever really happened, is part of an entire system which most people in the Yes movement wish to get out of. We do not see the UK’s enemies as our enemies.

      But the UK security services are our enemies. Scottish nationalism is defined in security service tasking as a threat to the UK and we are targets of the UK security services. The British government is not going to agree to another Independence referendum and we are going to have to win Independence, like the Catalans, in the teeth of every dirty abuse of British state power.]

      We are an existential threat to the integrity of the British State, a threat to its global prestige. We should not therefore be offering it and its agents any compromise, any ‘understanding’, any ‘lifelines’. It is our adversary, for it was never in our too long liaison with it a bosom friend.

    208. Ken500 says:

      Anybody interested in the timing. The SNP are having a consultation right now about it.

      Just e-Mail your suggestion of time and date. (Month) to Keith Brown, Nicola, Alex Salmond or any other MSP, MP (SNP) or write. SNP because they are consulting with others and making the decision. They might just compute the information and that will help come to the decision.

      People will have their say. It might make people feel a bit better to be involved. Including the ones who do not support the SNP but support another IndyRef. Some people feel they have been forced to vote for or join political Party because they have no choice. It is the only way. Some politicsl parties are unpopular and held in contempt.

      People often do not vote to elect someone in. They vote to elect someone out. Vote strategically to stop a candidate getting in. Not to support the candidate for whom they vote. They don’t like them as well. It is the lesser of two evils. Or in the event of having no one suitable as a candidate. Just do vote to support a system of which they feel they do not belong.

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      I could be wrong, but I think Marcia was agreeing with you.

    210. Marcia says:


      You are a touchy wee thing. I was agreeing with you. People can have their own opinions. Others can have theirs. I resent people telling others what they can or cannot read. Like herding cats it won’t work. I said in one sentence what you took numerous paragraphs to say.

    211. Ken500 says:

      Who the feck in their right mind would listen to Labourite conspirator McKenna with his record and past form. He only seems to support Independence and Indy2 to sell a few copies of his haverings. Few buy it in any case. Published by stringent anti SNP ant independent rags

      People have sussed it out. One week one view. The next week the quite opposite to fund the affluent lifestyle. He could not give a monkeys and would vote for a monkey with a red rosette and probably does. While claiming to support Independence. Keeping the foot in both camps. He obviously does not care a damn. Just about himself and his cronies in the Labour Party. The old guard,

      Old habits die hard. He is still living in the past. A Glssgow that has been regenerated. Still Labourites trying to hold it back. His auld mates. They probably gave him a backhanded or a few subs or interest in kind to write it. He sees the landscape changing and wants to have a future. Aye rather a Labour future. Oh Jeremy Corbyn. Oh Jeremy Corbyn. To muck up where May left off. Labour muck ups. There’s a word for people like that.

    212. Cubby says:

      Another great performance by Mike Russell SNP minister on Sunday Politics Scotland. This man is on top of his ministerial brief and is taking no nonsense from Brewer. Even had Brewer later on in in the programme saying that Russell was right about a point and he was wrong. Perhaps even the dimmest of Britnats are starting to see the light. The days of the Union are coming to an end. No doubt after Independence Dugdale and Davidson will say they were always for independence.

      The simple and best solution to all the Brexit issues is for Scotland, to go out on its own. For England and Wales to go on their own path and for N. Ireland to go their own way. In other words end the union. All the peoples and nations in the UK will get what they voted for with regards to Brexit.

      To those silly people who keep saying tell the politicians just to get on with it – it’s the same as telling someone with a gun held to their head – will you just get on with it. Not the best advice.

      Ian Murray MP Edinburgh, labours very own Scottish hardcore Britnat makes the stupid statement that a hard border between England and Scotland would be the same as a hard border between N.Ireland and Ireland.

      All these Britnats heads are exploding trying to advance their conflicting positions throughout the Union. Britnats are fighting each other all over the UK. Come on the Britnat trolls on Wings get with the programme – get fighting with each other. You know you want to.

      Vote for independence and put these Britnats out of their misery. It would be an act of kindness.

    213. Kangaroo says:

      Don’t you just love Brexit

      It’s like we have been wondering unsuccessfully how to cut down a large tree that is leaning over our house without it obliterating the house. Then from nowhere along comes a forest fire and burns down the tree with only minor smoke damage to the house. Push over the stump and your done.

      Hope it ends up being this simple.

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      @Proud Cybernat
      I think at that stage Christine Bell was still neutral (undecided) but then came over to a YES later on. Great resource that website.

    215. Macart says:

      @Ian B

      Good shout on Thepnr and Quinie.

      I’ve been off minding a store for a friend and not really a twatter user, so I’m not up on the ins and outs of this latest nonsense.

      How and ever, the people who read this site come here for a very good reason. It’s good at what it does and there’s some exceptional knowledge and people to be found below the line.

      All parties and no parties. All walks of life. All points of origin. That what you call a valuable asset. 🙂

    216. jfngw says:


      The difference is NI and Ireland don’t want a hard border. If a hard border between Scotland and England is what is required for independence and access to the EU then I would accept it.

      On another topic if Ruth Davidson resign what will be the change of policy within the Conservatives in Scotland. As they only have one policy it would seem to be no change, just the same single policy from the Jackson Carlaw candidate (would that be such a good sell for them).

    217. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 14 October, 2018 at 9:38 am:

      ” … KEVIN McKENNA gets to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Enough dithering, or else……
      ’nuff said, ‘cept time really is fast running out.”

      Decisions! Decisions! Oh! Dear! Oh! Dear! Oh! Dear!

      Who should I trust and believe? Who should I listen to?

      Should it be this Ottomanboi Gadgie that I suspect of not really being what they claim to be?

      Should it be this Kevin Kevin McKEnema enna gadgie I’ve not trusted for years and who has a record of being anti-SNP and anti-SG and looks very much like a turncoat to me.

      Or should it be the SNP/SG First Minister I trust implicitly who has always proven to put the people of Scotland’s interests above all else and who leads the Scottish government that has, since gaining office, done wonders for the people of Scotland.

      Has elevated the efficiencies of our Scottish services to outperform their equivalent services in every one of the other three countries in this two Kingdom United Kingdom and to outperform them all.

      Since gaining power the SNP, with a little help from their independence supporting friends, have also outperformed the Labour and coalition governments that went before them at Holyrood and that includes the Unionist Labour Party that had governed so badly in Scotland since I was a wee boy way back in 1945, that the voters now relegate them to be also rans at all levels of government.

      So naw! I’m not going to listen and heed this charlatan, this nonentity, this enemy of the people of Scotland.

      Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, both in Holyrood and Westminster, gives me every sign of knowing exactly what they are doing – and then some.

      In any case I have this strange feeling, and have had it for a considerable time, that Scottish Independence is more likely to come about by decisions of the International courts than by a referendum that would in any case, at best, only lead to the SG being given a mandate they already have and which the cross-party Holyrood parliament has officially vindicated by a vote of the whole parliament.

      We now have that little matter of the people’ of Scotland’s legal sovereignty in the hands of the international courts, (and that by the efforts of the SNP/SG).

      If, as I suspect, the international court rules correctly then the whole Westminster Establishments false set-up that has treated the two partner United Kingdom as a four country unit with a non-existent parliament of the country of England calling itself The United Kingdom Government but treating England as the master race with three subservient dominion countries as illegal.

      There is precedence in that the United Nation has ruled that the current Tory Government is guilty of human rights violations but has, to date, ignored the United Nations.


      So NO. I will not be listening or reading anything this McKenna cares to say on a known anti-Scottish publication or from a, “British”, owned and funded state broadcaster of anti-Scottish lies, omissions and deflections.

      Is that clear enough for you, Ottomanboi?

    218. Liz g says:

      Iain Mhor @ 10.59
      Steady yerself man .. here comes another “bubble”..

      If you’re right,and its a big if,that people can turn up and march without any organization or permission,then that’s fine and dandy…
      I don’t think that’s the Scotland we actually live in though!
      Rules and protocols are there for a reason,usually crowd safety reasons.
      And as long as the rules are across the board and not applied specifically to the Yes movement,then they should be taken seriously and not dismissed as unnecessary?

      Nevertheless ..
      AUOB -are-claiming ownership of the organisation of these marches.
      I have had a few concerns about how these marches are organised from day one,but mainly because of the type of crowd that attend,resolved to say nothing until after the Edinburgh one.
      Also to say what I was thinking constructively.
      With a view to improving the proposed marches next year!

      Until the Edinburgh one,my advice would have been,to approach one of the Unis and find a student or two studying Event organisation looking for work experience to help advise.

      While it’s good to know that if you were for example,electrocuted by an unsafe sound system,that you wouldn’t consider yourself able to hold the organisation accountable… Others may not feel the same,up to and including Police Scotland?

      But if AUOB are indeed shutting out any input and are doing things how they see fit…. then yes I would say don’t contribute to them unless and until,they open up their group to other voices.
      I would also point out that if any stall operatives are creating a paper trail between their own group and AUOB, such as a receipt for monies donated …. Then the stalls may be taking on some liability for anything that became an issue.
      Yet these groups who are setting up stalls have no say in the decision making process!!
      And more to the point were lied to by AUOB deliberately lied to…. AUOB admitted this themselves… Also how stupid was that!!
      The marches have been a success of that there is no doubt..and I’ve been glad of them.
      But AUOB need to get themselves better informed about what they are doing as they seem to be indulging themselves in the success of their flying by the seat of their arse behaviour.
      If they become transparent and get things done responsibly and are seen to be doing so, the funding will follow….
      But they will have to share the glory…and if thats the problem I’m sure you’ll agree it shouldn’t be?

    219. Cubby says:

      Meg Merrilees@12.57am

      These Britnat lords are full of shit. If it really was about justice they would be proposing amending the discriminatory part of the Treaty that covers “papists” not being king etc.

      Their proposal will be thrown out by the courts. It is a lot of crap.

      No written constitution just like that other nice Kingdom. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Nice company the UK keeps. Just another reason for Scottish independence. A proper written Scottish constitution.

    220. Daisy Walker says:

      Re a possible winter GE. Who would that favour? In years gone by inclement weather favoured the tories, because they had transport (and were less demoralised by poverty).

      In the current climate of postal votes (and yes I’m aware there are concerns for their security) it appears that the tories have transferred to this method, whole heartedly.

      So I would suggest the tories are unlikely to be too concerned about a winter GE.

      Thanks for the links Mr Peffers put up. I didn’t listen to them all, but one sentence jumped out from Portillo, ‘staying in the CU, means staying in the European Court of Justice’.

      In my opinion it all hinges on this for the tax haven purposes. If you stay in the ECJ, it means the tax haven legislation kicks in on 1/1/19 and is implemented in stages later in the year and in 2020, and the tax dodgers will be liable.

      Bear in mind Portillo used to be one of the tories who supported the EU. Complete U Turn.

      If it goes to a GE, the SNP need to make it a vote for indy, not a vote for a mandate for another ref. There simply isn’t time.

      Re AUOB. The stage, the sound system, the big TV Screen and the march itself were all wonderful. Fantastic effort by everyone who contributed. Such a shame there seems to be disagreements within and irregularities re other stuff. I wonder where or when the other organisations are going to organise a march (well done Dunmfermline for doing so).

      Hey ho, it is what it is and we get on. That march was wonderful because of all the wonderful people who attended and nothing takes from that.

      Re the left of the left contingent telling me who to follow, and that I’m ‘part of the problem’.

      Well you got that bit right. I am most certainly part of the problem. You don’t speak for me, you don’t get to filter the information I get to form my opinions, and tell me who to support.

      Those days are done, in no small way because of the journalistic standards that Wings Over Scotland adheres to as a matter of course. And what a relief it has been.

      Not going away, not giving up, not shutting up, and not buying compromised, champagne socialist, pie in the sky, unrealistic and unachievable left wing pish ever again – aye yes for aw that.

      Best wishes to all.

    221. Dr Jim says:

      A word about AUOB

      I noticed a strong Socialist presence at the march and the shoving of leaflets and newspapers bearing various slogans
      The only thing I’d say is we’re not marching for Socialism or any other ism, we’re marching for Independence which offers the right to choose whichever political affiliation anyone might have, there might be Conservatives who like the idea or indeed Liberals, the point is the march is for all who seek Independence for our country it’s not a march to be highjacked by one political movement or another otherwise you alienate voters on all sides who might choose the freedom to choose and they should not be subjected to the ideology of others

      One purpose one mission for all is that not what the banner means

    222. Ottomanboi says:

      Two cases of cultural appropriation in the English Times.
      Anglo-Argentine the term covers all those of Scottish heritage apparently. Whats wrong with Scoto-Argentine for heavens sake?
      History channel prog entitled ‘Britain’s war of thrones, The hundred years war’
      Needless to say it’s all about guess who?
      Anglo, Britain, British…such very weasle words. Into the skip….

    223. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain mhor says: 14 October, 2018 at 10:49 am:

      ” … Marches needn’t be “officially” organised, nor have permissions or police and local or even national government liason.

      Hi, Iain mhor! Ever heard of the Edinburgh Trades, “Blue Blanket”?


      You will find it quite hard to get much on the internet about this and much of what you will find is pure myth.

      The actual Blue Blanket was a gift to the assorted trades of the City of Edinburgh by King James III of Scotland and is in fact still held in the National Museum in Edinburgh. There is a silk replica too.

      Basically the Blue Blanket was given by the King to the assorted trades of Edinburgh after they stormed Edinburgh Castle and freed the King who was imprisoned by the landed Gentry who objected to the King.

      The Blue Blanket granted legal freedom for those who carried it to hold marches and meetings in the capital. There is much myths about the original Blue Banner but it is in fact held in the National Museum in Edinburgh.

      However, many of the trades of Edinburgh, including the Masonic Lodge, have their own replicas of the Blue Banner and much myths have sprung up about these replica banners with the Masons in particular claiming it as theirs alone.

      Good Luck in finding out authentic information on the internet. You’d almost think that someone or some organisation, “didn’t want you to know that”.

      You will find this is the case in much of Scottish real history not usually mentioned in the official Westminster Unionist party versions of Scottish history.

      For example how many Wingers have knowledge of, “Battle of Bylands in 1322”?

      Try looking that up on Google.

      Here’s one account:-

    224. Ken500 says:

      @ Eh sorry another mix up about that. Misunderstanding. The blooming internet. Getting carried away slightly. Or maybe quite a lot. There is a recognised benefit in precise. People are getting thwart about the chaos and the continuing down turning mess. Their jobs and survival threatened. More people struggling.

      Many people are still aware of the struggles of the Thatcher years and the devastation. At least it is different now in Scotland. Holyrood devolved SNP Gov is there to try and protect the people. Thank goodness. Already doing the right thing. Making improvements even with limited powers. How much better would Scotland be to have the powers and be Independent. The Dream of a lifetime for so many and others who have gone before. It is so close that people can just about grasp it . Many people are understandable desperate not to lose it. There are lots of opinions how to successfully achieve it. The support is still going up not down. A few blips here and there. Have a bit of patience.

      Sorry for the misunderstanding,

      { : > )

    225. Collie says:

      Re:The Edinburgh March last week.

      Can I add that the sheer adrenalin rush you get from just being in the presence of so many like minded Scots is worth all the effort of just turning up.

      Every other good feeling gained by attending these Marches and Rallies after that is a bonus.

    226. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dr Jim @ 12:38, well said

    227. ronnie anderson says:

      Dr Jim very much observant is U I would hope a lot more Independenistas would wake up to Auob & Solidarity & others of the left wing persuasion they are not supporters of the Only political party who can gain our Independence .

    228. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 12.33
      The biggest part of the shit these “Lord’s” are throwing round Cubby is that they are not talking about changing the Treaty of Union at all…
      They are tinkering with the Acts of Union and trying to give the impression that this is where the problem is..
      We need to keep reminding them at every opportunity that is the Treaty that is our issue.
      The international Treaty between Scotland and England!
      Anything else is a distraction..
      Its ONLY the TREATY….its AlWAYS the TREATY and thats the one thing they don’t ever seem to want to talk about..
      Can’t think why they are not suggesting a new Treaty agreement between Scotland and England,why they are sticking Wales and N.Ireland into the mix they have no responsibility under that Treaty.
      What is it about the 1707 Treaty of Union they don’t want to discuss?
      LOL… Like we don’t know!!

    229. Legerwood says:

      Ottomanboi @ 1.21pm

      I guess the Hundred Years War would be all about England, and France.

      “”The Hundred Years’ War was a series of conflicts waged from 1337 to 1453 by the House of Plantagenet, rulers of the Kingdom of England, against the French House of Valois, over the right to rule the Kingdom of France. “”

      So England not Britain. Putting ‘Britain’ in the title is usually a bit of a giveaway that it will be about England. I think the BBC do it to make us feel all warm and included – disnae work – especially in this case where ‘England’ would be correct.

    230. Daisy Walker says:

      Hello folks,

      I’ve submitted the following to the Rev as a possible ‘proper’ article, since not everyone reads btl comments.

      But here it is for yourselves to think about. (I may have mentioned it once or twice before;)

      Dear Rev,

      Would the following be suitable for as an article on your site?


      It’s coming up for Poppy season again. And this year its going to be huge. 100 years since the end of the ‘war to end all wars’ 11th November 1918.

      I’ve been buying and wearing a poppy at this time of year for 45 years now, and as a child it was truly a mark of respect, a time to reflect on the insanity and waste of war. I never knew then, that it also marked the abject lack of care by the governments to look after their own after the war was over.

      And as a Scot, I never knew then, the horrific disparity between the deployment of Scottish Soldiers, compared to those from elsewhere within the UK.

      But I felt it, it was all around in the towns and the countryside.

      Cairns in the middle of nowhere, with dozens and dozens of names of the fallen. And not a house or town in miles.

      It was in the spaces of things not said by grandparents and parents. Not said, because you just had to get on with things and it was too painful to dwell on.

      But I know now. I know that the death rate for Soldiers in the Scottish Regiments was 26%, and for rUK regiments 13%.

      And next in line were the Canada divisions, with names like, The Canadian Black Watch, the Canadian Highland Division, and on and on it goes.

      The Scots were Cannon Fodder to a British Empire, and always expendable.

      And we still are.

      And before my very eyes, this last decade, a corrupt media, determined to romanticise this monster of a war, bunting and Union Jacks from every orifice, the idiot cry of patriotism, and the rise of the right wing fascists.

      And the poppy police in full force. Highjacking this emblem of compassion from right under our noses.

      I understand completely the argument for white poppies. And maybe one day.

      But for me, for now, in a small way, on this day, I can reclaim the emblem, in the spirit in which it was intended.

      And, as a Scot, I can give visual voice, and pay respects to ALL who fell and to that horrific death rate

      26% : 13%.

      We Wear Twa Poppies
      And At The Going Down of The Sun
      And With Our Votes
      We Remember


    231. galamcennalath says:

      Re 100years War. More to the point, iScotland was firmly on the side of France.

      England continually tries to rewrite history to attempt to imply England = ‘Britain’.

      “The Battle of Baugé, fought between the English and a Franco-Scots army on 22 March 1421 at Baugé, France, east of Angers, was a major defeat for the English in the Hundred Years’ War.”é

    232. Ottomanboi says:

      Mr Peffers.
      See where you’re coming from but don’t you think you place too much trust in ‘the law’?
      No set of lawyers is going to hand over independence against the will of an extant sovereign state. It will have to be fought for.
      The Union Treaty was by modern standards a highly dubious document. The bribery that accompanied the Acts of Union rendered the enterprise unsound. Try taking that to an international court. England the victor and maker of the laws would have little to fear, even if it were to get that far.
      England is a colonial ‘power’, lost an empire but still thinks imperial. McKenna, Murray I and many others believe some in the SNP retain too much faith in the Brits eventually, because of that rule of law mythology, doing the ‘right’ thing. The lessons of history suggest otherwise.
      With its back to the wall BritState will ditch the rules….and will get away with it. That’s the hard fact of the modern world. The beast we are dealing with is also dangerous because it can seduce and ‘charm’ with its comforting patriotic lies. A large section of the Scottish electorate is rather vulnerable to such allure, as Mr McKenna in his reasoned article suggests.
      Btw not agreeing with the SNP leadership does not a troll, false friend, or ("Tractor" - Ed) make.

    233. Robert Peffers says:

      Wait for it!

      Wait for it!

      Utter pish, Ottomanboi says: 14 October, 2018 at 9:59 am:

      ” … Scots Law is another unionist, historic fiction. In practice, in things that really matter, the law of the UK ie English Law prevails.

      There is no such, “Rule of Law”, as United Kingdom Law and that is factually legally enshrined in the Treaty of Union, “Article of Union Number 19″. In fact it is not possible for there to be a United Kingdom Rule of Law. This is because under Engliah law Her Majesty the Queen of England”, is legally sovereign under English law which only applies to the Kingdom of England and there hasn’t been an elected Parliament of the Kingdom of England since 30 April 1707.

      The Rule of Law of the Kingdom of Scotland states that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and Westminster has never actually legally challenged that in law.

      However, The Scottish Government has claimed in the UNITED KINGDOM Supreme Court that the Scottish Claim of Right stands and Westminster has not officially contested that claim but chose to ignore it. The Scottish Government has now referred the matter to the international courts who have flagged it as urgent and are fast tracking it through the international courts.

      English law made before the Union cannot be applied to the Westminster Parliament any more than can the Magna Carta or the English Kingdom laws currently being attempted to be applied by Westminster to present United Kingdom claims of Sovereignty over the people of Scotland.

      There simply is no such thing as a United Kingdom Rule of Law and it is legally impossible as long as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign. To change that means the Treaty of Union no longer existed and if so there is no United Kingdom.

      This is what is to be legally tested by the Scottish Claim of Right currently in the hands on the international court.

      It is thus sub judice barred from the United Kingdom changing it. If the international courts find in favour of Scotland, and they almost certainly have to, then international law says that the people of Scotland, and only the people of Scotland, and/or the legally sovereign Queen of England have the legal sovereignty to end or continue the Treaty of Union.

      However, and only under English law, the Queen of England, must legally, under English Law, delegate her sovereignty to the Parliament of England but there hasn’t been an elected Parliament of England since 30 April 1707.

      Westminster is the elected parliament of the two partner United Kingdom. There is no Parliament of England.

    234. Capella says:

      @ Dr Jim – I was handed a leaflet advertising SNP Socialists who were having a meeting after the march at the Canon Gait Pub, all welcome. Speakers George Kerevan, Tommy Sheppard, Morag Robertson, Tejas Mukerjee and Cllr Graham Campbell.

      Being a life long socialist, I was happy to accept the leaflet and, had I been staying longer, might well have gone along to hear the speakers. As it happens, K1 kindly posted a link to a discussion with Chris McCusker and Graham Campbell filmed by Independence Live.

      I don’t see any problem with political groups handing out leaflets and inviting people to discuss their views. Had it been Tories for Independence or Liberals for Independence what is the problem. Nobody has to go along if not interested.

      Discussion is good. We all understand that only AFTER Independence can we vote for and get the government the majority want. Meanwhile, it won’t do “lefty” types any harm to know that there are people in the SNP to talk to. That makes more sense than desperately hoping that SLab will become socialist or that Jeremy Corbyn will ever get elected in England.

    235. Lenny Hartley says:

      Smallaxe , cheers managed to get it but kept cutting off, will keep trying what l heard from DMH was good listening.
      Quinie Frae Angus great post and good to see your still posting.

    236. Hamish100 says:

      McKenna wants to push the Scottish Government into an early referendum so the attention can move off Brexit and his labour luvvies lined up with the tories, DUP, OO and lid dems so they have a get out card not to discuss their policies on Brexit.

      The FM knows what’s she’s doing and doesn’t need a maybes aye/ naw labourite spouting from a unionist rag.

      Henry McLeish will be next on.

    237. Ken500 says:

      Let it go please. Some folk organised a brilliant March. It gave the SNP Conference a bit of a boost as well.

      Just give thanks. Do not cut off yer nose to spite yer face. Do not over think it. Or do it in private or among friends. It just give the opposition ammunition to use against the Movement. Once the official campaign starts there will be official organised marches and campaign, where all groups can come together and join to organise it. Although sometime that it can be a problem.

      The SNP has a good organisation experience behind it. Skilled trained organisers that have been doing it for years and the monies Funded with proper accounts etc. Then they have to hand it over to some enthusiastic amateurs. In the interest of the wider movement. They do not have such good skills but they have control. The control of the budget which mainly comes from the SNP members and supporters. That can cause a bit of annoyance about how it is being spent it. Deciding who can participate in discussions. Over zealous control and computer hscks of unformstion. Never resolved.

      The unionists getting illegal dark money throw at them and nothing is done to stop it. Gerrymandering. Getting a totally unfair advantage. Another extra hurdle. To cross.

      Getting the vote out is really more important. People voting and turning out. Getting other people to turn out. Some folk do not go in for marching and flag waving. Just the way they are. Sometimes business or other concerns can hold them back. They have to be publically neutral. Public servants are supposed to be neutral in some jobs. They can vote how they want.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Holyrood and councils to stop,the unionists. They will still get in but on a much lower proportion of the vote. In Aberdeenshire Council SNP managed to get into authority it was a few Labour members supported them. Yet look at the cretins in ACC. 9 Labour councillors in collision illegally with the Tories. Kept in place by a two jobbed Tories.

    238. HandandShrimp says:

      Dr Jim

      Any under one banner political march will see the SWP and others attend. I joked with an old uni friend about it on the day. Back in the 70s and 80s the SWP used to have (maybe still do) blank posters with their logo so they could fill in the protest de jour. I think that just goes with the territory of having an open invite to come under one banner. Pretty nearly impossible to prevent and up to people on the day to buy their paper or not.

    239. galamcennalath says:

      Daisy Walker says:

      … a mark of respect, a time to reflect on the insanity and waste of war.

      I agree with what you say. I too buy a poppy, but make a point of telling people why. My Remembrance is motivated by personal respect and collective disgust.

      Two of my great uncles died in the ‘Great War’. I’ve explored the events relating to their deaths and can see clearly it was just a total waste of two young lives. Theirs, and millions like them.

      We all know the most jingoistic BritNats see it differently – died defending King and Country! Not in WW1, they didn’t. It was nothing more than a gigantic turf war between rival gangs.

    240. Ottomanboi says:

      An english/french opus about the French rulers of England, originally from Anjou, engaged in a power struggle for their possessions and supposed claims in France. The perfidious and duplicitous English also seem to think their history is actually ‘English’ never mind British. Scots and French, vive l’ancienne alliance, ken better. They were conquered in 1066 and ruled by foreigners until those Saxe-Coburg und Gotha lot rebranded the dynasty.
      British translates as English in most languages. Not ‘their’ fault, a sad fact of Scotland’s effective incorporation into England.

    241. jfngw says:

      Davidson & Mundell standing full square behind Arlene Foster, I think that speaks volumes about the Conservatives in Scotland.

      To be honest I suspect Mundell has just had a magic beard snack and it has given him delusions of integrity. As for Davidson, it’s just another sound bite, totally meaningless except off course she will have the BBC headlining and tweeting about her as was the plan.

    242. Ottomanboi says:

      Mr Peffers
      You do bang on about the Scottish people being sovereign….in legalistic theory that may well be so, in practice the factual rulers have all the best cards. Scotland is simply a colonial possession…de facto. You will need to come down from cloudcuckooland, sometime soon, the rarefied air is rather intoxicating.
      Our perceptions are totally at variance on this matter. Enjoy your pm.

    243. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 14 October, 2018 at 1:56 pm:

      ” … See where you’re coming from but don’t you think you place too much trust in ‘the law’?”

      Oh” Come on! The whole thing is without doubt entirely a matter of law. As I keep pointing out and it keeps flying over heads is that it isn’t a matter of, “THE LAW”.

      The whole point is that there isn’t such a thing in the context of the United Kingdom of, “The LAW”, there are factually two quite separate and independent Rules of Law and each of them is the independent Rule of Law of an equally sovereign independent kingdom.

      It is very, very obvious you subscribe to the Westminster erroneous mantra that the Westminster Parliament is sovereign but there is no way that can be legally correct and what is more it is written into the Treaty of Union that is legally the case.

      I really should not need to be pointing out that in the first place the Treaty of Union has to be an agreement between only two equally sovereign partners. This is because if that were not the case then only one partner has freely signed the treaty.

      Matter of fact it wasn’t a freely entered into agreement by the people of Scotland who are, under Scots law sovereign. It was signed by a self appointed, (not elected), group of aristocrats while the legally sovereign people were rioting on the streets.

      So there was/is a irreconcilable difference in the only two Kingdom s that signed the Treaty of Union. There is absolutely no doubt that it is a treaty to unite two Kingdoms and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to de with countries.

      How then is the so called United Kingdom now divided up as four distinct countries and one of them doesn’t even have a devolved parliament? Where is the legal documentation where Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland agreed to that? Also where is the legislation that the legally sovereign Queen of England agreed to that?

      I could go on showing glaring legal irregularities but will leave it at that.

      The so called United Kingdom is a non-legal set-up with Westminster as the EVEL de facto parliament of the COUNTRY of England, (and there is no elected as such parliament of either the country or the kingdom of England)

      It is now, and always has been since 1 May 1707, The Parliament of the United Kingdom and there are legally only two equally sovereign kingdoms with signatures on the Treaty.

      In legal terms the United Kingdom does not, and never has, existed and, like murder, there is no time limit when that criminality runs out. The case is now in the hands of the international courts but I have no doubt that Westminster, in its arrogance, will attempt to ignore it’s guilt as it has done in the very recent past by ignoring the United Nations accusations of breaches of the human rights of disabled people.

      Thing is that now Westminster has set itself against 27 of the World’s most powerful democracies and their collective EU. they will find it very hard indeed to continue going against the United Nations who are already accusing Westminster:-

      However, most importantly read this one:-

    244. Col says:

      Could Scotland approach the UN to be classed as a colonised nation? I think we should, perhaps should have done it before 2014. We tick every definition of a colonised nation so why not highlight to the people who don’t even understand our predicament. We can’t reach the people through our colonisers media so…..

    245. Liz g says:

      Ken 500 @ 2.18
      Yes I mostly agree with you Ken.
      My original intention was to have a quiet word with Ronnie Anderson after the Edinburgh march.
      Just pointing out the few wee things I’d noticed,that could be improved upon.
      Mainly to avoid giving the British Nationalists ammunition and to help improve the experience…
      Anyoo I’ve roughly said all I’m willing to on a public forum anyway so I’m taking your wise advice ad leaving it alone now.

    246. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 14 October, 2018 at 2:44 pm:

      ” … You do bang on about the Scottish people being sovereign…”

      No more than you, “bang on”, how English rule is legally valid over Scotland and only in reply to such Britnat supporters as yourself who are only far too ready to accept English rule.

      ” … in legalistic theory that may well be so,”, Nope! in legalistic theory it is most certainly 100% correct and clearly written in the Treaty of Union.

      Are you so thick that you cannot figure out that if the Treaty of Union that purports to forms a bipartite UNITED KINGDOM does not in practice create a UNITED KINGDOM but instead creates a non-existent de facto parliament of the country of England lording it over three subservient COUNTRIES then it cannot legally be a UNITED KINGDOM.

      ” … in practice the factual rulers have all the best cards.”

      They haven’t got a single legal card. All they have is a roughly 10 to 1 greater population and use that like a battering ram to force the their only legal kingdom partner into submission — Oh! Wait! I’m wrong, they also have people like you in Scotland who back them up to the hilt.

      ” … Scotland is simply a colonial possession…de facto.”

      Exactly, Ottomanboi, and that is apparently not only acceptable to you but you fight tooth and nail against those who do not accept the Westminster illegality. Get that word, Ottomanboi, “illegality”, Do you know what it means?

      It means your entire case is based upon acceptance of Westminster breaking the law and you have the brass neck to then claim this – “You will need to come down from cloudcuckooland, sometime soon, the rarefied air is rather intoxicating.”

      You expose your true colours at last. You show you know that the Westminster case is in defiance of the terms of the Treaty of Union and you are fighting on Westminster’s side.

      If what you are advocating were true there is no way that Scotland can ever be again an independent Kingdom/country ever again. You cannot accept that Westminster’s case is legal and unbreakable and still claim that you support Scottish Independence.

      If we are not an equal and sovereign people we have no right to independence. Thing is, that under Scots law, and agreed by the Kingdom of England in the Treaty of Union, we are indeed a legally sovereign people of a legal independent kingdom – Yes that’s a fact, we did not stop being an independent kingdom by the act of union we simple agreed to be equally sovereign partner kingdoms and if we are not then there is no United Kingdom.

      Which is the, “Scottish Claim of Right”, that is at present being fast tracked through the international courts and the so called United Kingdom is not exactly flavour of the month with many of the World’s sovereign nations in the United Nations at this moment.

      Only an idiot would attempt to argue that because something is illegal it has to be accepted by the victims of the crime.

      The way Westminster is claiming to be a bipartite United Kingdom
      is illegal and what is more they know it and so do you. Trouble is you cannot prove your arguments legally yet claim Scotland and Scots must accept English rule in spite of it being illegal, “Just because”. The Question obviously is, “Just because of what”?

      Your idiotic claims are like the old despicable joke about rape.

      It went like this, “If rape is inevitable then you might as well lie back and enjoy it”.

      Am I to assume you are more than happy to enjoy being raped by the Westminster Unionists?

    247. Liz g says:

      Col @ 3.32
      I’m not sure that would work Col,precisely because we are in a Treaty agreement…I think we would need to demonstrate that we were being prevented from ending the Treaty arrangements,and we are not quite there …. Yet…?

    248. robertknight says:

      So our imperious Tory leaders in Scotland want to side with the Demented Ulster Puritans and go down with the ship?

      Like that of Admiral Lord Horatio D’Ascoyne, their behaviour is the stuff of the blackest of black comedies…

    249. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 12:24,

      Likewise re a “hard” border.

      But if there is to be one, it will only be erected by the English Government in its deluded isolationism.

      Why should we cave in to its threats against our own best interests? Far better to be on the outside looking around than captive on the Anglo inside looking nowhere.

    250. jfngw says:

      Always good to see the delusional Labour types on twitter who claim that if Scotland had voted Labour Corbyn would be PM. They seem to have trouble with arithmetic, its a inherent Labour problem.

      Even if had taken all 59 Scottish seats they would only have 314 seats at WM, even adding the resultant 8 LibDems would not give them a majority. They would have needed to also work with the DUP, so pretty much the same outcome as having the Tories but with the negative side of Scotland having actually no voice or alternative choice.

      If the DUP has taught us one thing it is that you get recognition at Westminster when you have the balance of power. It’s that old saying, when you have them by the balls their hearts and minds follow. But you need to escape as they will have their revenge, as no doubt the DUP will discover at some point soon.

    251. Ken500 says:

      E.g. Labour a disgraces count unionist self interet in keeping their exalted and privilege position. Dugdale on QT. She admits that Scotland has a good education system. One of the best in the world on all stats by comparison.(pro rata). Then can’t help put in a dig about the SNP has cut funding. Another derisory sound bite. £400,000 knowing full well or she should do. More interest in keeping her position through Labour patronage than admitting it. More worried about herself than the interest of the well being of people in Scotland. Lying.

      The demographic of pupil ratio has changed, There are less pupils by comparison (pro rata). That Westminster has cut UK Education funding £6Billion a year meant £400,000 cut to the Scottish education budget. The SNP Gov has to mitigate it and does. After the ConDems Westminster Gov elected to protect it. Cut it.

      Is that the best Dugdale can do with her privileged public funded education. Try and ruin the Scottish economy for Labour unionist patronage. Instead of going off and doing something useful. The hacks at the Herald publishing the Labour hand outs. Without any research or investigation. Knowing it is a load of nonsense but not caring a damn. They will be the next one out the door. They deleted and banned every Scottish Independence support. Let Foulkes have his privilege unadulterated say. First comment every time.

      That if the unionists had no bombed the World to bits there would not only funds for an even better Scottish education system. The whole world could have had a better education system.

      Now Mundell and Davidson come out for Foster. Rather then the people of Scotland. Are they all in the Masons? Or just trying to keep their privileged position. Arlene Foster does not even have a sizeable majority in NI. 200,000. Kept in power for Tory votes in Westminster. Yet appears to be running the show. Making demands that will harm and damage the Scottish economy. Mansonic secret handshake and secret privileged,. Intransigent unfairness and lack of competition.

    252. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 12:38,

      I have to agree. It’s “All Under One Banner”, not “All Under Our Banner”. The “One” meaning independence, not some particular political ideology.

      What we all need to keep in mind is that heavy promotion of any political viewpoint, not least someone’s narrow interpretation of “socialism”, is likely to deter vast numbers of potential converts. A complete killer to what we are trying to achieve.

      Right now on several fronts we are observing the toxic effect of parasitical minority leftards of various factions jockeying for more influence than they merit, entirely to the disadvantage of the cause we support. The same old “People’s Front of Judea” stunt we’ve seen again and again, except in reality it’s no joke.

      We all have our personal motivations, the vast majority being entirely honourable, and that’s what keeps us going. But we each have to be modest enough to recognise that we can’t thrust our whole personal belief system into the faces of everyone we are trying to engage and expect them to agree. They just won’t.

      But we don’t need to. The only people who can’t see the obvious are the self-serving bandwagon-jumpers who have a different agenda entirely.

      We are far better off without them.

    253. Ken500 says:

      Liberal, Labour Tories for Independence don’t really exist in the real world. Surely they have the sense to realise voting for Tories, Labour or LibDem Parties will never get Independence. These unionist Parties are totally against it. It is illogical.

      The only way is to vote SNP or Green. To vote Green could muck it up because they will vote against the SNP. Get SNP second votes then renege even on Independence. They renege on their own policies. Just look at the six white middle class men sitting there it shows it. No diversity.

    254. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      What Chris’ wonderful cartoon doesn’t show just off-picture is The Coward Jem Corby hiding behind a water butt and staying out of the line of fire, waiting to see who gets it.

      He has a little one-shot Derringer hidden in his left boot but he is swithering whether to chum up with his mean partner on the right or shoot her in the back with it.

    255. yesindyref2 says:

      There were maybe 6 SNP branch placards or banners I saw myself. so there would have been many more than that, including the ones that marched straight on and off for the train or bus. I had to walk around a quite large green party banner as they were posing for photographs, several English for YES, ad there may have been a Tories for YES, so it was all parties under one banner. The stage itself had at least 3 SNP politicians speaking and hence giving it their thumbs up, Keith Brown, Joanne Cherry and Tommy Sheppard (my award for best speech), didn’t see all of it as I was sat on the grass at the other side of the road, but I think Maggie Chapman was there too.

      People should rememeber, boycott the fundraiser and advise others to boycott the fundraiser, and perhaps no more marches. They want £20,000 for £2,5000 for each of the 8 planned and dated marches for which they are, apparently, already applying for planning. Apparently the Ediburgh one they applied back in March, contrary to some peoples’ assertions.

      Well, hopefully we won’t need them, as they say themselves.I’d advise everyone to check out their facebook page themselves, apart from anything themselves, there’s some great photos. They also say they’re learning from their mistakes. Well, we’re all already perfect already, aren’t we? Aren’t we?

    256. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is a doctrine of law then there is the British way of doing things.

      Taking Rights Cynically: A Review of Critical Legal Studies


      The Critical Legal Studies movement has been described by one of its leading proponents as having “undermined the central ideas of modern legal thought and put another conception of law in their place.” Whether or not the movement has actually succeeded in doing so, this is a fair description of its ambition. The scholarship of the CLS movement disputes the idea that the power of judges and other government officials either can or should be constrained by sources of law such as constitutions, statutes, and precedent. It is marked by a rejection of the belief that “legal argument” can or should be an enterprise distinct from political argument. It is also marked by a rejection of “legal rights” as a desirable or even possible means of protecting individuals from government power.

      Reviewing the Reviews: The Political Implications of Critical Legal Studies


      Critical legal studies is a movement of academics hostile to American political ideology and Liberal political theory.7 Political Liberalism emphasizes individual autonomy and grants equal status to various view-points and lifestyles, “pluralism.” The rule of law serves the function of protecting the exercise of private rights from interference by other individuals and by government.8 Those hostile to Liberalism argue that Liberalism requires judicial decisions that transcend individual preferences in order to preserve pluralism, so fairness can only be guaranteed by decisions, based upon objective criteria.9 Critical legal scholars, “critics,” attempt to “deconstruct” Liberalism and jurisprudence using and expanding upon the legal indeterminacy arguments made by legal realists earlier this century.”10 Critics argue that law is indeterminate because the process of judicial reasoning requires discretionary interpretive choices. Legal rules do not determine results or control judges’ choices, and no objective decisional criteria area vailable within or without legal theory.”11 Moreover, critics argue, the rhetoric of the Liberal model masks a hierarchical system that benefits some and not others, while obtaining the consent of those whom the system does not benefit.12

      Contemporary Social-Legal Theory as a Critique of Legal Positivism

      Beside Natural law theories and Legal Positivism, one of the views on law, which still has not become a separate discipline, but is more than present in the study of the phenomenon of law, is the Social-Legal Theory. When talking about the Social-Legal theory, we cannot label it as theory of law, which has its clearly defined notions on what law is. I primarily think of an attitude towards observing and studying the phenomenon of law. This attitude is about social perspective or orientation towards law or, as it is widely accepted in the understanding of this discipline, about the fundamental assumption on the social nature of law.

      Legal Realists and Sociological Jurisprudence, as disciplines of the Social-Legal Theory inherit a less formal approach to law, and understand law in context. This idea has been understood dually: (1) should legal questions be based on moral and political philosophy (critic from the outside) or (2) should law be returned into a social context and connected with social sciences in a scientific manner (critic from the inside). Critical legal studies, which have embraced first idea, are based on the notion that law is neither rational nor coherent and just, but is, in reality, arbitrary, incoherent and substantially unjust. Critical studies are based on the idea that behind the facade of neutrality, law serves and imposes the hierarchy of power regardless of it being economic, gender based or racial. Further more, legal positivism has been criticized on other various grounds. Internally, the positive law methodological approach has its difficulties in explaining the normativity of international public law and rules and norms of culturally specific groups; methodological problems in separating validity and efficiency; legal principles and legal norms as an open text which do not lead to the one possible logical solution etc. Social-Legal Theory has been criticizing legal positivism both internally and externally, and if understood constructively, it can help legal positivism to improve its concepts and methodology.

    257. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 16:53,

      I don’t mind people displaying their allegiances in banners on an indy march, that’s their fair due. And the more the merrier, the better to reflect the whole gamut of Scottish civic life. So it would be great if they represented every mainstream political movement, with “Labour for Indy” and even “Tory for Indy” instead of the noxious “Tory Scum Out”, even though I’m a supporter of neither. (I would be tempted to do a Tory one of my own, except it wouldn’t be honest and I just couldn’t bring myself to march under it.)

      Where I draw the line is in party political pamphleteering on the back of a march. It’s not a recruiting opportunity for parasites.

      What AUOB have achieved is a marvellous thing. It has given us all a great boost while otherwise we’ve been in the doldrums. I’m just sorry I missed the Edinburgh one due to prior committments elsewhere. But it is worrying to hear that there are apparently now factions within AUOB jockeying for position.

      As for next year, if we’re still needing marches beyond next spring, I fear we’ll have lost it.

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I should have broken them down in to smaller paragraphs.

    259. Ken500 says:

      Aye but there is still a need for their votes to get over the line. They are important even if you do not agree with their politics or organisational skills. Which are actually quite impressive and the enthusiasm which is catching. Someone has mentioned it was just great and uplifting just being. Many people would totally agree with that, Quite amazing.

      That is why it has to be altogether. Under one banner. For now. Any realignment will come later. That is the point of the exercise and struggle. So Scotland can finally have a Gov for which it has voted. Finally get Democracy. Recognised as a right under the UN treaty.

    260. Orri says:

      The alleged letter from Davidson and Mundell reads as though they want the while of the UK in the European Union Customs Union AKA Single Market
      If NI isn’t to change it’s current arrangement with the EU then it must remain. The Arguably the no sea border bit is satisfied if both Scotland and the Isle of Man also remain in the SM. The IoM pretty much covers the entirety of that border not share by Scotland or the republic.

      That only leaves England as where a border night be drawn if the UK as a whole doesn’t remain in the SM.

    261. Ken500 says:

      £2,500 is quite reasonable expenses for a large March. They might be better tomrausecise it as they go. With fast moving events. They might run out of money. Or events and circumstances might change quite suddenly.

    262. Ken500 says:

      @ raise it as they go.

      Pre text.Twisted again.

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      How’s about “Conservatives for Indy” and “Tory Scum Out”. I’m certain they are not the same political animal. I refuse to believe Conservative countenance racialist extremism.

    264. yesindyref2 says:

      They weren’t in your face though, just there. I remember there were 3 or 4 outside the Dundee Union on that day in September 2014, didn’t think anything of it myself, talked to them a bit during the night when out for a roll-up. I didn’t hear “out tory scum out” at the march, it was “tory tory tory ” “out out out”. So maybe they learned their lesson from the Glasgow one.

    265. Meg merrilees says:

      This is Davidson who ‘will’ be the next First Minister of Scotland saying to T May if you don’t give Scotland a shitty deal I’m resigning. You have to look after the Orange Order who have helped build up my ‘power base’ in Scotland or I’ll resign. You have to defend bigots and sectarianism or I’ll resign.

      And Fluffy will resign to because I told him too! What a loss that will be to Scotland! Who will you get who is so malleable then Treeza!

      Do you think Jacob Rees Mogg cares? No one jot!
      He said that N. Ireland coped during ‘the troubles’ so surely they can cope again.

      Does Boris care if she resigns – doubt it.

      Maybe she’s getting out while she can – before she loses her seat ‘cos that would be embarrassing!

      To quote Nicola – will they dare???

      I was always told don’t threaten to resign because if it doesn’t go your way you will have to resign – bring it on.

    266. ronnie anderson says:

      Yesindyref2 [ several English for YES, ad there may have been a Tories for YES, so it was all parties under one banner. ] the only part of your post you got right was English Scots banner as they have always done & put up their stall .

      Auob is not as you perceive it to be , its selective in who they want to march . Labour for Yes & Tories for Yes were excluded ( how do I know ) David Mc Guinness & Myself made the suggestion to Neil Mackay early on in the year & his answer NO red or blue tories will be marching in Auob march .

      i contacted Labour for Yes prior to Edinburgh to ask if they had a banner & would they march in Edinburgh , the reply I got was no they wouldn’t put up a banner as they wouldn’t be welcomed but they would march incognito. Dont make nonsense up Yesindy .

    267. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. British jurisprudence. It struggles to leave the middle ages behind.

      Political Strategic Direction for the Codification of the International Legal Peremptory Norm of “Self?Determination”


      Since the disintegration of Cold War international systemic bipolarity in 1989, the international community has witnessed the entrance of at least 30 new states, proclaiming their formal sovereignty by obtaining membership in the United Nations. As with the previous wave of UN membership enlargement following decolonization three decades earlier, this most recent burst of accessions reflected inter alia the power of nationalism to change the domestic and international political status quo. In some cases, horrendous violence at times approaching genocidal levels has accompanied these changes. Of ten boundaries among these new states remain under intense dispute. This persistence and intensification of movements for national self?determination require that the prerequisites for a successful international strategy for peacefully regulating this type of change include accommodation of sovereign self?determination for “aspiring” nations.

      Cold War, Sovereignty, Self?determination

      The Science of Sociological Jurisprudence as a Methodology For Legal Analysis

      Power and law in international society: International Relations as the sociology of international law

      P.S. Are there any constitutional lawyers in the house? I don’t bite, much.

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      An article in The National that DmcE-H might approve of, me too, by Stuart Cosgrove.

    269. Smallaxe says:

      This meeting began at 5:30 pm this evening.

      Brexit: Raab and Barnier hold talks to resolve ‘big issues’;

    270. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 17:28,

      I’ve heard the “Tory … out” chant at every one of the marches (Glasgow + Stirling) I’ve been been on. It’s entirely irrelevant and inappropriate for present-day circumstances – the SG is (happily) SNP and we want to escape entirely from WM’s evil clutches, so why should we care who is in power down there? That is no longer our concern.

      It’s a weird neo-Unionist throwback to the 1980s. It seems some class warriors are still fighting a long-lost war with a long-redundant mindset. Nothing whatever to do with the autonomous future where we’re heading, so a truly misleading representation of who we truly are.

    271. yesindyref2 says:

      £2,500 is very little, good value. As for expenses, I’ve organised stuff in the past when I was better off, like a bar rally (treasure hunt kind of thing) for a place I worked at, and it costs money, as I had to suss it out and ask permission of the 5 bars. These days of being brassic if I was to organise something like AUOB I’d need expenses paid, fuel in particular. They had to have meetings, and that costs.

      @ronnie anderson
      We’ll politely agree to differ, at least I will (the polite bit that is).

    272. yesindyref2 says:

      I agree. It’s a government we’ll be rid of with Independence, whatever flavour of government they have down there is up to them. I posted the same more than once in both Herald and National. Having said that, it wasn’t just the Socialists joined in with the out out out (I didn’t), but it was countered usually with the what do we want Independence when do we want it now.

      It takes all sorts to make an Independence 🙂

    273. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Brexit, English cultural chauvinism (see HMS Agincourt, ffs) and British exceptionalism in general. Britain’s colonialist imperialist cultural heritage, can no longer be allowed to shape Scotland’s cultural potential. British nationalism poses a real and present danger to Scotland’s future generations. Despotism does not offer much scope for negotiation.

      Evaluating self?determination: an adult protection case study


      Self?determination is widely regarded as a core social work value and as central to work in adult protection. However, it is not unproblematic and raises difficult questions about how to balance empowerment and protection, or rights and risks. Inter?agency procedures and the recent publication of policy guidance may reflect these difficult questions rather than assist practitioners and managers to resolve practice dilemmas they encounter.

      Self?determination, Values, Consent, Elder abuse

      Achieving equal citizenship: meeting the challenges of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities

      Between Selves and Collectivities: Toward a Jurisprudence of Identity

    274. ronnie anderson says:

      Hi Smallaxe Hope you & your Wife are keeping well, nice to see U back on Wings .

    275. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ronnie anderson @ 17:46,

      Of course you have your own grievances with the AUOB lot, Ronnie, but you seem to be “in the know”, and if what you say is correct about exclusions of mainstream political representation, it’s totally unacceptable. Exclusion of racists and other unrepresentative unpleasantnesses is one thing, this is quite another.

      I think we should be demanding clarification from AUOB concerning its policy on acceptability of political representation.

      “All” should mean exactly what it says on the tin.

    276. Thepnr says:

      How much longer can this government and Theresa May survive? Has there ever been a more divided cabinet and party running the UK than there is now?

      It’s an absolute shambles and unbelievably things are getting worse rather than better as the clock ticks down. Raab has jetted off for “crunch” meetings in Brussels with Barnier that are aimed at securing a “deal” tonight that can be announced tomorrow.

      Hahaha how ludicrous is that? A “deal” that so far has little prospect of satisfying anyone, a deal keeping NI in the single market and customs union but not Scotland. A deal that at least 40 members of her own party and the DUP won’t accept and will need Labour rebel support doesn’t sound like much of a deal to me.

      I’m guessing that we’re in for another bowlful of fudge and cherries to last at least another month. There has to come a time though when the music stops and everyone has to get off the merry-go-round.

      What a farce and an embarrassment the leaders and government of the UK have become.

      No wonder Scotland wants out and to make her own way in the world, we deserve better, simple as that.

    277. Old Pete says:

      Mundell and Davidson resign, no chance. These two Anti-Scots are their along with their media pals to try and suppress the Scottish people. Still folk get to see what hypocrites the Tories are, surely this can only help the cause of Scottish Independence.

    278. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      “Tory … out” chant …. It’s a weird neo-Unionist throwback to the 1980s.

      I agree completely. It’s a remnant from a time when Scots believed that replacing the Tories with Labour at WM would make a difference to Scotland.

      Although an SNP voter, I remember being pleased when Blair replaced Major. Almost 30 years later I ask, what difference to Scotland did it actually make? Yes, it brought devolution and we could argue that was a stepping stone to better things.

      However, in most areas, time should have taught us that Labour is no friend of Scotland.

      So “Tories out” … to be replaced at WM with what? Who cares? Scotland is now on a different course. The English Nationalist Conservative party will become a historical irrelevance to Scotland shortly.

      And here’s a controversial view … we may end up being thankful to Tories for assisting a majority of Scots to opt for Indy. So why be so keen to get them out of WM?

    279. Simon Curran says:

      Robert Sutherland@18.03
      Agreed with the Tories out chant, as an ex Labour voter there is no guarantee that they would protect Scotland’s interests any more than the Conservatives and plenty of reason to suspect they won’t. Disappointed by all the predictable Socialist Worker guff, feared at one stage that those negative messages would swamp the positive messages or their red placards would be more visible than the blue of the earlier. One thing these marches do is normalise support for independence, we’re not going anywhere and we’re growing.

    280. wull2 says:

      Its Optrex time, he has been sent over with the words written on a fag packet, The UK will not blink, we have matches to keep our eyes open, even when we are dead.

    281. Smallaxe says:

      ronnie anderson,

      Thank you, Ronnie.
      I know that you are more than capable of defending yourself re AUOB but may I just say that you outlined the current problems to me at Bannockburn and I can only tell others that you are the most hardworking and honest man that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

      You have worked tirelessly for the Yes movement at your own expense and I and my good lady have the greatest respect for you, sir. Lang may your lum reek, my friend.

    282. Smallaxe says:


      Thepnr, please call me at your earliest convenience. Ta Fanks.

    283. Dan Huil says:

      Westminster still trying its britnat “divide and rule” tactics:

    284. Meg merrilees says:

      read last night that about 30 LABOUR rebels are prepared to support T MAY which could be enough to get her proposed Brexit deal ( whatever that might be) through Parliament.
      They are prepared to defy Corbyn because their Constituents voted for Leave and they are arguing that a bad deal would be better than No deal.

      We really desperately need this ECJ judgement on whether Article 50 can be reversed ASAP. That would give them a third option, even ‘a Third Way’… so no ‘bad deal’ , no ‘no deal’ just vote to stop now.

      Things changing by the minute it seems.

      Would love it if Mundell and Davidson resigned – be careful what you wish for though – we could end up with Ross thompson leading for Scotland or Stephen Kerr or worse still, a WM Tory Puppet – with is all that Mundell is anyway.

      This is all dashed inconvenient for (t)Ruthess as her baby will be popping out soon and she won’t want to be bothered with politics during her maternity leave.

      We could be fighting an election very soon…..

    285. Thepnr says:

      So when the the mad hatters “take back control of our borders, our money and our laws”. What will they do with them?

      Has anybody asked?

    286. Ken500 says:

      There’s no deal. Things remain the same. Going run in circles. Everything changes hut everything remains the same.

    287. Meg merrilees says:


      I’d to laugh on the News Quiz on R4 t’other night. They were talking about the Brexit stand off between Barnier and Foster and one of the panellists joked that a note has been sent describing it as a case of who blink first to which the DUP had replied that ‘they have cut their eyelids off’. Gruesome but it did make me laugh…

    288. galamcennalath says:

      Will there be a deal? If there is, it will be a fudge to kick the can into ‘transition time’.

      I hope the EU, and in particular the Irish Rep, won’t be taken in by typical London perfidy.

      The Tories want to avoid a genuine backstop. Their alternative is a super duper trade deal for the whole UK. But Brexiteers want to diverge from the EU, so won’t have the close coupling needed for a super duper trade deal,

      If they pretend otherwise it is just subterfuge.

    289. Ken500 says:

      The dirty dancer has on the tartan suit. How’s that for a PR blunder.

      Insult after insult. Scrapping the bottom of the barrel of rotten to the core.

      People shout ‘Tories out’ because of what the Tories – unionists did to Scotland. quite legit. They are slagging off the Westminster lot.

      That does not no mean there are not wealthy people of a right persuasion who passionely support Independence in a Scotland. They have supported it all their lives. Donated and campaigned. Even estate owners with a fevour they realise the potential and opportunity of an Independent Scotland. They are quite willing to make a contribution over and above.

    290. Ken500 says:

      Remember there is a majority in the rest of the UK against leaving the UK.

      London S/E voted to Remsin. Many have changed their mind. Including in Scotland, All leavers around here have changed their mind. Include fisher folk.

      It is just a case now of when the Tories collapse. They will engineer a GE they will lose to get them out of their mess. That is what unionists always do to get out of their mess. They are all as useless.

    291. Rock says:

      Brexit has been the democratic choice of the people of the UK.

      If the people of Scotland want Scotland to become a member of the EU, they can vote for independence. It is not rocket science.

      I do not believe there would be any hurdles or delays for Scotland to be admitted as a member, once independent, in 622 years’ time.

      It was extremely dishonest of Nicola to pretend there could be a seperate deal for Scotland, knowing perfectly well that there couldn’t.

      If you are not straight with the people, you are no different from unionist politicians.

      Having then sided with Saint Theresa and the “ghastly” Boris Johnson as they declared war on Russia after a false flag operation, she is now hostage to them.

      Mark my words – Nicola is not going to call an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster.

      As Ottomanboi rightly said on another thread: “The rose-tinted specs, worn by many on here, need to be discarded.”

    292. galamcennalath says:

      Ken500 says:

      People shout ‘Tories out’ because of what the Tories – unionists did to Scotland. quite legit. They are slagging off the Westminster lot.

      IF they are including the Red Tories, fair enough.

      IF it was Tories in the American Revolutionary sense i.e. all those opposing independence, then …. Hell Yes, get them out of all positions of influence within Scotland.

      But as I say, I’m not so sure those who do the chanting mean all Unionists/BritNats.

    293. starlaw says:

      Should change that chant to ‘London Out’ or ‘Torylabour out out out’

    294. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      starlaw @ 19:30:

      Should change that chant to ‘London Out’

      Exactly so. Short and very much to the point.

    295. jfngw says:

      The one constant you can be sure of about BBC Scotland is their myopic coverage of Ruth Davidson. She can say something one day and the exact opposite the next, it will be oblivious to anyone watching BBC Scotland news.

      Whereas they immediately have at hand any quote from a SNP politician no matter how many months or possibly years ago it was said.

      Davidson can demand P1 tests then change her mind, mentioned in passing, but strangely the week it is pointed out at FMQ’s is the week the BBC decide not to show any clips from it on the news. She can say what disaster Brexit will be then demand support for Brexit, no mention. Numerous others but little point listing them

      A comment from the SNP that the referendum was possibly a once in a generation/lifetime (take your choice) opportunity, will still be getting airtime more than four years afterwards. It would seem that being in the SNP excludes you from changing your mind, even if this was a comment not a policy.

      They will show a clip of an ex health secretary talking about a software failure that was not found in Scotland but leave the impression that this was actually a lie.

      It may seem pointless mentioning this as almost everybody here is fully aware of the BBC. But it is always worth dropping something in occasionally for the casual browsers.

    296. Cageybee says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      14 October, 2018 at 1:24 pm
      @Iain mhor says: 14 October, 2018 at 10:49 am:

      ” … Marches needn’t be “officially” organised, nor have permissions or police and local or even national government liason.

      Hi, Iain mhor! Ever heard of the Edinburgh Trades, “Blue Blanket”?


      Here is a link to a photo of the blue blanket in Contalmaison July 1st 2016×768.jpg

    297. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the Brexit shambles. What can you expect when there is no strategic planning undertaken, only a racialist desire to ‘take back control’. Bloody nationalists.

      ‘Defend and extend’: British business strategy, EU employment policy and the emerging politics of Brexit


      As the British government embarks upon the process of exiting the European Union (EU), it will have to navigate the preferences of powerful business interest groups. However, the British politics and political economy literatures have tended to neglect the question of business agency in general and its relation to EU integration in particular. This article analyses British business strategy in relation to EU employment policy between 2010 and 2016. Through a document analysis of business responses to the Balance of Competences Review on EU Employment Policy and Confederation of British Industry (CBI) policy documents, the article argues that British business has attempted to ‘defend and extend’ a liberalising agenda within the EU in the recent past. Brexit fundamentally undermines this strategic orientation. The article accordingly outlines some of the key strategic dilemmas which the ‘Leave’ vote generates for British capital within the emerging politics of Brexit.

      Brexit, business, employment, European Union

      Bicameral Politics in the European Union

      Member States’ Success and Influence in European Union Policymaking

    298. Thepnr says:

      According to the Irish newspaper, the Independent their government ministers have been “warned to avoid British counterparts ahead of crucial Brexit negotiations”. Scared of leaks and British influencing their decisions.

      Can’t say I’m really in any way surprised at that, EU negotiating plans have been like a leaky sieve since the talks started. I fail to be surprised there either when you consider the ability of GCHQ and their buddies on the US side, the NSA’s capabilities to capture just about every email and phone call made on the planet.

      Further on the Independent tells us that there is an “olive branch” being offered by the EU:

      “Meanwhile, EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier is reported to have offered a last-minute olive branch to Theresa May which would see Britain’s transition period for leaving the EU extended to three years.”

      That’ll go down well with Rees-Mogg and the ERG. I think they’re all clutching at straws now or praying for miracles.

      The END Is Nigh!

    299. Thepnr says:

      Reality bites back!

      But after talks which lasted a little over an hour, it was clear that obstacles remained. Mr Barnier said “some key issues are still open”, including the so-called backstop measure to prevent a hard border.

      British and EU negotiators called a pause in their talks on a Brexit deal today, and will wait for the outcome of the summit before they resume negotiations.

      Both sides now face the prospect of beginning the crunch summit without a draft divorce deal, increasing the chances of a disorderly and damaging British departure from the bloc.

      A total shambles, humiliation and an embarrassment. Heads must roll! And they will, just not tomorrow now, another month of fudge to eat yet.

      What a mess, wake up No voters and get us out of here.

    300. galamcennalath says:

      ” Brexit talks reached a dramatic stand-off in Brussels on Sunday night, after Theresa May warned that a draft treaty to take Britain out of the EU was a “non-starter” and risked tearing her government apart.

      Mrs May despatched Dominic Raab, her Brexit secretary, to Brussels to make it clear that she could not sign up to the current terms for Britain’s exit at a European Council meeting on Wednesday.

      Mr Raab returned home after tense talks with EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier lasting only an hour; no further talks are scheduled ahead of the summit, raising the prospect of a complete breakdown in the Brexit process.”

      So, the game’s a bogey and the ba’s on the slate?

    301. Ken500 says:

      They are particularly making reference to what Thacher did. Pus the ones that are ruining Scotland now are the Tories in Westminster. Plenty of people did shout Blair out. Millions. He just ignored them. He is out now. In his self made prison. A Pariah under constant supervision. A life long protection squad. The taxpayers have to pay. Pity he was not in Official prison.

      When Alex and co tried to impeach him in the Commons who turned up to defend him gutter snipe Gove and freak Rees Mogg. They talked it out and voted against in as usual. It was on the Parliamentary Channel.Psycho bastards. Now starving the vulnerable. The caused the increase in migrants coming to Europe. Then blame the EU. The EU countries have to pick up the pieces at great cost. The human misery. 4 million people now in tents on the Syrian borders.

      The boys trying to negotiated with the EU. The EU gobbling them up and spitting them out. The Tories are outclassed. A bunch of pathetic amateurs,

    302. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 1 hour ago:-

    303. galamcennalath says:

      ” Talks between the UK’s Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab and EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier today have failed to resolve the Irish border question, and negotiations have now been put on hold.”

      My guess is … the Tories will just not accept that Backstop means Backstop.

    304. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking 30 minutes ago:-

    305. Ghillie says:

      Galamcennalath 9.02 am

      Thank you for saying that.

      I am very suspicious of folk who have a gratuitous pop at the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership.

      We are all ready to hit the ground running =)

    306. Thepnr says:


      Sheer class and a thing of beauty hahahahahahaha.

    307. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 5.50

      Indeed. I was going to say the same. Well said Stuart Cosgrove

    308. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I was going to point out that the day the Record published the vow
      they had a strong article alongside it featuring Canon Kenyon Wright urging people to vote YES “for their children”.

    309. Bob Mack says:

      German media which is usually reliable, reporting deal is done for whole of UK.

      UK to remain in customs Union, but wait for it, N Ireland to remain in single market and subject to EU regulations.

      I guess it’s now very much game on folks

    310. Iain says:

      Freedom is coming,
      We just have to seize the opportunity.
      It will come in due course.
      Trust in Nicola.
      We have to be patient.

    311. yesindyref2 says:

      For some odd reason I was outnumbered 7 to 1.

      Proud of my 2 upvotes all the same 🙂

    312. Thepnr says:

      The UK is a laughing stock, something to be ridiculed in the eyes of the rest of the world. The dancing Queen FFS.

      Hell mend them that brought us here, Independence here we come.

    313. galamcennalath says:

      I do wonder if in the headily optimistic days of the Leave campaign, did any of it’s organisers, advocates, and sponsors give one moment’s consideration to what it might mean in Ireland?

      And, did any of them consider in their wildest nightmares that Ireland would have such a huge effect on the practicalities of Leaving?

      No, and no. London centric naval gazing twits.

    314. Bob Mack says:

      Same news of deal now being reported by Editor of Guido Fawkes. Sound as if it is legit

    315. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers, the news has been coming through fast through the weekend which is unusual for a start. Thank you for keeping us up to date =)

      Bob Mack, WHAT ?!!

      If so, that will certainly bring a strong reaction from the SNP!

      Are things speeding up now?

    316. Thepnr says:

      @Bob Mack

      All talks are over between the EU and the UK for now, there is no deal yet and the talks will not restart until after Wednesdays EU summit. These are the latest facts.

    317. Thepnr says:

      Very latest from the Guardian.

      All negotiations between the EU and the UK have now been put on hold. The prime minister has been invited to address the EU27 heads of state and government before a dinner on Wednesday night but she is yet to accept.

      A joint Brexit department and No 10 statement said a number of “unresolved issues” remained following Sunday’s talks between Raab and Barnier but the UK was “still committed to making progress” at Wednesday’s EU summit.

    318. Breeks says:

      Ottomanboi says:
      14 October, 2018 at 2:44 pm

      Mr Peffers
      You do bang on about the Scottish people being sovereign….in legalistic theory that may well be so, in practice the factual rulers have all the best cards. Scotland is simply a colonial possession…de facto…

      Not so Ottomanboi. Sovereignty is a double edged sword. If a Nation’s sovereignty is formally disputed, then both claims on Sovereignty will be considered. Scotland can prove it’s Sovereignty, and Westminster has even formally recognised the Claim of Right, so I really do fancy Scotland’s chances in establishing well documented provenance and securing the legitimacy of our claim.

      In contrast, for Westminster to legitimise their claim of Sovereignty, they would be obliged to open a rather rancid and duplicitous can of worms. For the best part of 300 years Scotland has had no Scottish Parliament, and even the Scottish Parliament when it was set up was engineered to be a supine talking shop run by Labour.

      For the first time in over 300 years, Scotland has an Independence minded democratically elected SNP Government, and the same old “BritNat” hogwash which has kept Scotland subdued with Constitutional sophistry simply isn’t going to wash.

      The issue is not the veracity of Scotland’s claim to be Sovereign, but avoiding the tar pit of wrestling command of Scotland’s Sovereignty away from Westminster only to find its legitimacy lying at odds with democratic majority in Scotland which favours the Union.

      That’s how I see it. Bring it on.

      What I don’t understand is the “passive” campaign to somehow bolster support for Independence without a progressive and informative campaign stragegy, which also exploits the God given and irreconcilable Constitutional stand-off which Brexit and Scotland’s Remain majority has given us.

      Overrule our OWN sovereignty, make do and compromise with access to the Single Market??? What the f….???

    319. Bob Mack says:

      @the pnr,

      They may be your latest facts,but the political editor of Guido Fawkes and the German papers disagree. Take it up with them if you have better contacts than them

    320. Thepnr says:

      Northern Ireland border issue not yet resolved so no withdrawal agreement is possible yet.

    321. Ken500 says:

      There are wealthy people in Scotland of a right persuasion who have always supported Independence and the SNP Estate owners, business people, industrialists. financiers, fund managers, bsmkers, Lawyer doctors professional people.profs, academics. Many have supported Independence all their lives and have majorly funded the SNP and been vocal in their support. They donated funds etc and do anything to help.

      There are some in the Tory Party. Even elected. A Councillor (head of the Council) some have rebuked Ruth Davidson publically when she said Scotland would be out of the EU.. Although they are a waste of space they haven’t got a clue. They often do not attend council meeting because they claim they are ill. On the list of interests they go out for dinners twice a week. They are all often invited out for dinner by various associations. Probably looking for favours. They have their own planes. The SNP were having to tell them what to do to sort things out. They were incapable.

      When the SNP were in control supported by a few Labour Councillors, They supported the SNP administration. There were great plans afoot. The £Billion HQ was to be sold. A new HQ was to be built with community fsciilities. New sports stadium. They could have built much needed schools. With the funds. As soon as the Ruth Davidson anti Independence Party was elected. All the plans were dropped. She has mucked up the local economy.

      When the SNP gave them the extra money for the extended nursery hours places . There was not a total take up. So there was £2 Million+ . Some children are with main carers or someone else is taking care of them. grandparents etc. They did spend the money on education but still did not build the new schools needed. Using the statute limit (30) as the norm. The education council officers employed by the council They normally would have cut it and spend it on something else. In the present climate they are scared to do that in case they gotbfound out. The administration is still a shambles,

      The point is anyone in unionist Parties or Voting for unionist Parties are not really be really serious about Independence Voting for them could just muck up Independence. Lose the SNP ithe majority it needs to win at Holyrood and councils. So the SNP can’t carry out progress policies that people want and keep the Holyrood mandate if needed. These voters are being very shortsighted.

    322. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting quote from Mundell in the Herald:

      In line with the principles of the Claim of Right the people of Scotland have also provided their approval to another key part of Scotland’s democratic tradition; that of the Union.

      So the SOS acknowledges the Claim(s) of Right.

      He might regret that.

    323. ben madigan says:

      we are now looking at the strong possibility of a No Deal Brexit

      Mr Raab refused the deal because he and PM May thought they could not get it through Westminster.

      have a look at to see comments as the drama unfolded

      I hope and trust Scotland is ready to hit the ground running. Soon. very soon.

    324. ronnie anderson says:

      Smallaxe I do as I do because of all the good people within this Yes movement in whatever way we can progress the cause of Independence , as for ma lum reekin ah stay in a smokeless zone an ah hiv a aqua fire lol . Big Hugs to U & Sybil .

    325. Iain mhor says:

      Hi @Liz g 12:32 (& others with interesting stuff re: Blue Banner etc)

      My primary point is none of these AUOB marches were “events” I certainly didn’t pay to play and under no contractual obligation, nor insured or had any redress from or liability to any other marcher, stallholder or otherwise, beyond existing legislation.
      If AUOB initiated a march by “suggesting” they’d like to see people march for independence on a day/date/route then fair play to them. What they do or how they or any other private citizen manipulates the march is only up to the marchers.

      See, AUOB may have approached various organisations to advise they were bringing X people to a route march, but that was disingenuous. If AUOB (or any other) create a closed event with registration as a participant under AUOB T&C’s – then relevant authorities may be involved and the marchers affiliated under the AUOB aegis. Until then, each march is no more than a ‘flash mob’ public gathering with no head, no organisation and no collective liability.

      AUOB have popped their heads above the parapet and decided to be liable for their organisation and their members only. Crucially, they may claim all the marchers were their members and part of their organisation, but that is most certainly not so.
      Perhaps there was a cabal of their own there doing whatever it is they do. But they and only they are liable for that action. Everyone else was a private citizen publically marching without requiring permission and never having sought any.

      Policing the day was a decision to allow any march or prevent it. To prosecute individually, any breaches of any law or bylaws or not. The decision was made to not attempt preventing it, because all the stakeholders were aware of exactly this point. The only people they could have taken action against collectively (if they could identify them) were AUOB members. Breaches of law beyond that would require individual action against individual citizens. That’s a lot of Polis vans. Not that they were incapable of doing that (a breach of the peace charge would suffice) yet they chose not to and to be pragmatic.

      Like it or not, if there had been any proclamation (and it would have had to be a proclamation to the general population) stating any marching was prohibited; then what subsequently takes place is civil disobedience and Policed accordingly ie: arms length or more probably by force.
      I haven’t bothered to check if such a general prohibition was announced. I believe I saw something to the effect that the AUOB organisation were to be prohibited from something or other, but I don’t recall any riot acts or emergency powers enacted removing the right of citizens to gather and march that day.

      So I understand the possible desire for the YES movement to hold, regulate and police an officially sanctioned “event” but that’s a difficult proposition. Almost (but not quite) impossible by its very nature, to exclude ‘undesirable’ elements and also include enough people, who would agree to be identified, affiliated and bound and liable via T’s & C’s whether through ticketing/registration or otherwise.

      I do understand some of the grumblings and what is happening is not perfect, but it is really all that can be expected. People are marching as is their right and trying to be relatively civilised about it. The civility cuts both ways, citizen & government.

    326. ronnie anderson says:

      Some negotiations on Brexit when the flight lasted longer than the meeting lol .

    327. Smallaxe says:

      ronnie anderson says:
      “Smallaxe I do as I do because of all the good people within this Yes movement in whatever way we can progress the cause of Independence”

      Aye Ronnie and you do it so well with humour, kindness, generosity and the occasional sweary word or three. 😉

      Big Hugs back at you, big fella, from both of us.

    328. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Michael McCabe RTd this heroic effort by dude called Edwin Hayward to explain the effects of Brexit. Simple examples, all in bite-sized tweets, with graphics etc. A lot of work has gone into it and it is, honestly, terrifying.

      Please check it for yourself and spread it far and wide – these Tory bastards are dragging us down into hell with them. They may feel at home there, aye, but most of us fuckin well don’t.

    329. Cubby says:

      AUOB marches 2018. Went to three marches this year. Enjoyed each one immensely. Each one was very effective.

      Only one sour note. I get lied to constantly by Britnat media and politicians and I did not appreciate being lied to by AUOB. What was wrong with just saying we are going ahead with the march and rally even though HES have refused permission for the rally in the big bit of flat grassland at Holyrood. I would still have attended. It’s only a bit of ground with grass on it that the public use and has no fencing/gates etc.

      It was the wrong decision to lie ( even with the best of intentions). Please do not do it again. Lying will be counter productive. Learn from your mistake.

    330. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 14 October, 2018 at 6:26 pm:

      ” … It’s an absolute shambles and unbelievably things are getting worse rather than better as the clock ticks down.”

      Now I’m not blowing my own trumpet here I’m simply stating facts and I really do wish I didn’t need to do so. On the day that the Westminster Establishment came out and said they were proposing to leave the European Union and that the United Kingdom would benefit financially and be better off by being free to negotiate trade deals with any other nations or trading blocks they wanted to.

      My immediate comment was that the EU parliament were never going to allow the United Kingdom to go without the UK being worse off out of the EU than in it.

      Within hours we had that total idiot Boris claiming savings of large sums of cash that the UK paid to the EU would boost the United Kingdom NHS. One of my comments was that this was total fiction and I pointed out there was actually no such thing as a United Kingdom NHS and Westminster already had cut the independent Scottish Welsh and N.Irish NHS funding.

      Quite simply the EU were never going to compromise on the EU freedoms that are the mainspring of the EU’s clockwork engine. If you break the mainspring the mechanism stops dead and if concessions were made to the UK for old pals sake then every member state in the EU would demand they get better concessions or they too would leave the EU to be on a par with the UK.

      This concept very soon became the EU mantra of, “No Cherry picking of the freedoms”, and the EU hasn’t budged a fraction on that claim ever since.

      Yet today the UK still hasn’t grasped the truth that there will be no Cherry Picking and any concessions to that rule will still result in the member states demanding they get better concessions and if they don’t get them the EU will begin to break up.

      Several EU member states, including Italy, are already making threats. Really speaking nothing has changed since the saga began.

    331. Hamish100 says:

      Rock 622 and ottoman boys come in your times up.

      Your just like bulldo Davis – who has intentionally it would appear prevented any Brexit deal. You are the same mindset trying to undermine Scotland. You will not succeed.

    332. galamcennalath says:

      The Tory chief whip tweeted this picture …

      A telephone off the hook. I guess it means he’s saying someone isn’t willing to speak. Perhaps, as a Tory, he’s saying the EU won’t speak. Where ‘speak’ means letting the entitled Tories have their way.

      EU red lines …

      There has to be a time limitless backstop on Ireland as an insurance policy if all else fails.

      And, no one can have benefits of the single market without being in it.

      … the Tories want …

      No backstop, but if there has to be one, it should be time limited

      And, they want many benefits of the single market and non of the costs and responsibilities.

    333. Phronesis says:

      Scotland’s balance sheet is the logical starting point for an independent Scotland- away from the collective economic madness that is afflicting WM.

      ‘All governments can better manage their resources. They should start by bringing data together to come up with a rough estimate of public sector assets, liabilities, and wealth. Over time, better accounting and statistical collections can improve the accuracy of these estimates. Governments can use them to do basic balance sheet risk and policy analysis, using the framework presented in this report.
      Once this exercise is completed, governments will be able to show their citizens the full extent of what they own and owe, and better use public wealth to meet society’s economic and social goals’

      Tax fraud, evasion, dubious accounting practices- not a criminal’s rap sheet but the chronology of the wealth of a world ‘leader’.

      ‘President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found…Much of this money came to Mr. Trump because he helped his parents dodge taxes. He and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents, records and interviews show. Records indicate that Mr. Trump helped his father take improper tax deductions worth millions more. He also helped formulate a strategy to undervalue his parents’ real estate holdings by hundreds of millions of dollars on tax returns, sharply reducing the tax bill when those properties were transferred to him and his siblings’

      We are being led by diminished,unworthy leaders who revert to type –in cahoots with corrupt regimes and propping up the militarised industrial economic model.

      ‘The Group has reasonable grounds to believe that the Governments of Yemen, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia are responsible for human rights violations, including enforced disappearance. As most of these violations appear to be conflict related, they may amount to the following war crimes: rape, degrading and cruel treatment, torture and outrages upon personal dignity… The report notes that coalition air strikes have caused most direct civilian casualties. The airstrikes have hit residential areas, markets, funerals, weddings, detention facilities, civilian boats and even medical facilities’

      Brexit- it is an unsolvable riddle for UKOK, although Scotland has an excellent solution to it.

      ‘A tentative deal on the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement reached at technical level in Brussels Sunday collapsed following a meeting between EU negotiator Michel Barnier and his U.K. counterpart Dominic Raab…May has struggled from the outset to navigate her Brexit strategy through the warring camps and interest groups: hard and soft Brexiteers, Remainers, and hard-core unionists, citizens rights’ advocates and business and industry concerns’

    334. Collie says:

      Brexit is England’s baby, yet they blame everybody but themselves for all the problems it has thrown up.

      This is typical and their compliant media is only too willing to play their part in reinforcing those claims.

    335. Kangaroo says:

      Robert Peffers

      Have you a link to the International Court case re Sovereignty?
      I have only seen info on the MPs taking a case re A50 revocation. Nothing on the other matter although having watched the Continuity Bill case in the Supreme Court I was surprised and annoyed that we did not appear to contest the claim that “Westminster is Sovereign the Scottish Parliament is not” espoused by the UK side.

    336. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 22:10,

      Sobering reading, Ian. As others have said recently upthread, if only more people would wake up to the imminent (and unpleasant) realities.

      The “strong and stable” =cough= Mayhem Gang are trapped in an impasse entirely of their own making. Something they could have totally avoided had they taken the sound advice proffered at the very outset by our own Scottish Government, but arrogantly chose to ignore. So much for the promised “full consultation” and El Gordo’s earlier “leaders not leavers”.

      For the sake of our future well-being, it’s now high time to politely but firmly show these London chancers and incompetents the door, and put the Scottish Government in sole charge of our own affairs.

    337. Liz g says:

      Anybody else hearing Nicolas making a big speech tomorrow and is going to be sayin this no/blind deal shit it not on?
      ( much more politely of course)

    338. Meg merrilees says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Just read your link to Edwin Hayward’s guide to the Brexit horrors – very clear;

      I didn’t realise that Parliament will not get a vote on a ‘no deal’ Brexit.

      It is logical though – they were promised a ‘meaningful vote’ on whatever deal was agreed and if no deal is agreed then what is there to vote on?

      I don’t think many MP’s realise that either listening to them talking on the radio tonight. The Labour MP being interviewed said that she and several of her colleagues would not want a no-deal scenario so they would vote for any deal rather than have a no-deal.

    339. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Bob Mack @ 21:16,

      Care to explain? Though I’ve always felt there would eventually be a deal, after Raab’s latest – and apparently futile – little jaunt to Brussels, it doesn’t look as though it’s imminent. Au contraire.

      If anyone is to give, it’s surely going to have to be May. But can she? Will one more red line crossed be the one to finally break the camel’s back? (To mix my metaphors, sorry! =grin=)

      Can’t say I would regard Guido Fawkes as a reliable source of matters EU-related, either, mind you, so what else is there, and is it anything more than hopeful thinking or mind games?

    340. Dr Jim says:

      If the darling of the EU First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon makes the speech I think she’s going to make tomorrow stand back from the entire Internet blowing up with Yoonworld troll panic bile and bilge

      They’ll be flinging their Poo at their tellys radios and down their telephones while they’re squealing and screeching obsenities at the moon as TV presenters keep repeating the First minister of Scotlands name Nicola Sturgeon Nicola Sturgeon Nicola Sturgeon (coz they really hate that) and I really really love it when they hate it

    341. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 23:41,

      Yup, I had heard about it – though don’t recall the context – and am eagerly looking forward to what she says, hoping it will be a searing all-guns-blazing condemnation of the arrogance, duplicity and rank incompetence of the Mayhem Gang and their cargo-cult fellow-travellers who (among other things) have hijacked we Scots and are holding us to ransom against our express will.

    342. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland –


      If it wasn’t enough to have almost two-thirds of Scots voting Remain *without* all the relevant information being laid before them (and we know, thanks to Carole Cadwalladr et al that it wasn’t) then these detailed predictions should slam the tin lid on it all.

      Instead, we have farcical posturing by Tories, at national and branch level, aided and abetted by a supine mass-media, purveying BTUKOK-no-matter-what as some form of ‘patriotism’.


    343. Collie says:

      Will Nicola mention the “I” word tomorrow?

    344. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 14 October, 2018 at 9:15 pm:

      ” … Not so Ottomanboi. Sovereignty is a double edged sword. If a Nation’s sovereignty is formally disputed, then both claims on Sovereignty will be considered. Scotland can prove it’s Sovereignty, and Westminster has even formally recognised the Claim of Right, so I really do fancy Scotland’s chances in establishing well documented provenance and securing the legitimacy of our claim.”

      Scotland only needs one document to make her case and it is absolutely watertight. That document is the one and only, “Treaty of Union”, of 1706/7.

      Here’s the way it goes, though no doubt the legal eagles will be far more verbose.

      The title of the document is simply the first and most important bit of evidence.

      The Treaty of Union was agreed on 22 July 1706. It following negotiation between commissioners representing the parliaments of the two Kingdoms, (not countries).

      This was followed by two, separate, Acts by The Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland, (which were separate states with separate legislatures), the only commonality was the same person was the separate monarch in each Kingdom. In the actual words of that treaty they two separate kingdoms were, in the words of the Treaty, “United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain”.

      However, this description was wrong for it did not include Ireland that had become part of the Kingdom of England in 1542 by the Crown of Ireland Act.

      So there is the irrefutable evidence that the Treaty formed, “A bipartite United Kingdom”, and was thus a bipartite United Kingdom of equally sovereign kingdoms. They had to be equally sovereign in order to legitimately agree and sign, “The treaty of Union”, for if they were not it would not have been a Treaty of Union.

      The next bit of evidence is contained in Article of Union Number 19. Note that in such treaties each and every article of union is a legal stand alone agreement in its own right.

      Here is the text of Article of Union Number 19:-

      “Article 19 of the Treaty of Union.THAT the Court of Session, or Colledge of Justice, do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that hereafter none shall be named by Her Majesty, or her royal Successors, to be ordinary Lords of Session but such who have served in the Colledge of Justice as Advocates, or principal Clerks of Session for the Space of five Years; or as Writers to the Signet for the Space of ten Years, with this Provision, That no Writer to the Signet be capable to be admitted a Lord of the Session, unless he undergo a private and publick Tryal on the Civil Law, before the Faculty of Advocates and be found by them qualified for the said Office, two Years before he be named to be a Lord of the Session; yet to as the Qualifications made, or to be made, for capacitating Persons to be named ordinary Lords of Session, may be altered by the Parliament of Great Britain. And that the Court of Justiciary do also after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain, and without Prejudice of other Rights of Justiciary; and that all Admiralty Jurisdictions be under the Lord High Admirall or Commissioners for the Admiralty of Great Britain for the time being, and that the Court of Admiralty now established in Scotland be continued, and that all Reviews, Reductions, or Suspensions of the Sentences in Maritime Cases, competent to the Jurisdiction of that Court, remain in the same Manner after the Union, as now in Scotland, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall make such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be judged expedient for the whole United Kingdom, so as there be always continued in Scotland a Court of Admiralty, such as in England, for Determination of all Maritime Cases relating to private Rights in Scotland competent to the Jurisdiction of the Admiralty Court, subject nevertheless to such Regulations and Alterations as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that the Heritable Rights of Admiralty and Vice-Admiralties in Scotland be reserved to the respective Proprietors as Rights of Property, subject nevertheless, as to the Manner of exercising such heritable Rights, to such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all other Courts now in being within the Kingdom of Scotland do remain, but subject to Alterations by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all inferior Courts within the said Limits do remain subordinate, as they are now, to the supreme Courts of Justice within the same, in all time coming; and that no Causes in Scotland be cognoscible by the Courts of Chancery, Queens-Bench, Common-Pleas, or any other Court in Westminster-hall; and that the said Courts, or any other of the like Nature, after the Union, shall have no Power to cognosce, review, or alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland, or stop the Execution of the same; and that there be a Court of Exchequer in Scotland after the Union, for deciding Questions concerning the Revenues of Customs and Excises there, having the same Power and Authority in such Cases, as the Court of Exchequer has in England; and that the said Court of Exchequer in Scotland have Power of passing Signatures, Gifts, Tutories, and in other Things, as the Court of Exchequer at present in Scotland hath; and that the Court of Exchequer that now is in Scotland do remain, until a new Court of Exchequer be settled by the Parliament of Great Britain in Scotland after the Union; and that after the Union, the Queen’s Majesty, and her royal Successors, may continue a Privy Council in Scotland, for preserving of publick Peace and Order, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit to alter it, or establish any other effectual method for that end.”

      There is absolutely no doubt that the United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of kingdoms, that the two legal systems are sacrosanct and must remain so. and that only leaves the little matter of the people’s legal sovereignty and that is part of the independent Rule of Law of Scotland.

      It stems from The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320 and the relevant part is this, (note the part bolded at the end):-

      “But from these countless evils we have been set free, by the help of Him who though He afflicts yet heals and restores, by our most tireless prince, King and lord, the lord Robert. He, that his people and his heritage might be delivered out of the hands of our enemies, bore cheerfully toil and fatigue, hunger and peril, like another Maccabaeus or Joshua. Him, too, divine providence, the succession to his right according to our laws and customs which we shall maintain to the death, and the due consent and assent of us all have made our prince and king. To him, as to the man by whom salvation has been wrought unto our people, we are bound both by his right and by his merits that our freedom may be still maintained, and by him, come what may, we mean to stand.

      Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”

      That final part is what states the people have right to drive out the monarch who does not protect their sovereignty but note that it does NOT declare a republic it replaces the monarchy. However, as the people are legally sovereign they can legally declare a republic if they so choose but as a separate issue.

      The reason the Declaration of Arbroath was accepted in its day as the law of Scotland was that in 1320 the Holy Roman See was the International, (all Christendom), legal authority. That, of course dose not mean that the legally sovereign people of Scotland cannot give a legal mandate to an elected government by the people of Scotland to change Scots law.

      Now consider the only Westminster defence that can be made.

      There is none for the Treaty is between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England but Westminster is NOT the parliament of the Kingdom of England as there has been no parliament of England elected since 1 May 1707.

      Westminster is legally exactly what Westminster claims to be, “The Government of the bipartite United Kingdom”,. It is neither parliament of the Kingdom nor the country of England.

      It really is not a complicated case but you know as well as I do how lawyers can complicate the simplest things.

    345. sandy says:

      Ken500 @ 4.22pm.

      Slightly OT but I must take issue with a small part of your post.
      I have been a Freemason for many years &, from the age of 18, have NEVER voted for an English political party. I have voted at every election where a true SCOTTISH candidate stood, either in person or by proxy. I have never trusted postal votes. (I’ve read English history & how it built it’s empire. Suffice to say that I have very little trust in the English powers that be.)

      Scottish Freemasonry is built on trust, integrity, & concern for fellow man. Religious discrimination, bigotry, racial discrimination, etc. are things that are NOT accepted. In fact, Scottish Masonry is the most respected globally & is possibly the largest of all of the craft. Many of us frown on some of the aspects of the English craft. Please don’t believe the myths. We all know how myths can influence some people, especially when it comes to politics.

      The Orange Order is significantly different. No need to explain. No member of the Orange Order would be admitted to the lodge or should he slip through, would soon be shown the door.

    346. Liz g says:

      Robert Peffers @ 12.13
      Nicely put once again Robert.
      Can I just add, that it doesn’t even have to get as far as Lawyers for Westminster to try to complicate things.
      Right now we have the House of Lords trying to give the impression that their proposed changes to Acts of the Union changes THE Union.

      It doesn’t…
      It changes absolutely nothing about the Treaty Arrangements.
      They are not,and cannot change that Treaty!
      And it is the Treaty we need to end

    347. Nana says:

      Tomorrow Monday 15th October First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon will deliver a speech on the current state of play of the UK Government’s Brexit negotiations and the future of the UK and Europe.

      The speech will be followed by an opportunity to put questions to the First Minister.

      Links to youtube and facebook for Nicola’s speech at 11.30am
      see here for info

    348. Liz g says:

      Sandy @ 12.26
      While I have my own very non complimentary views on Freemasonry..
      I can also say that I know two masons very well and they are indeed committed Yes voters.
      They also have said that they are not the only ones!

    349. Robert Louis says:

      Some others above posted this link earlier, but here it is again.

      This is what brexit will mean. If you still think it won’t affect you, or might just be a little problem for a while, you really should read this.

      And also at;

    350. Liz g says:

      Nana @ 12.39
      You’re a Star Nana xx

    351. Confused says:

      a “last call” from the Non-Rev NOT-JOLLY

      interesting –

      if the DUP call you “difficult and hostile” its surely a badge of honour

      – what they meant was

      – wouldn’t do what we wanted …

      this is what tends to happen when you try to get bolshy with
      – people you have no leverage over
      – and are irritated by your BS
      – and generally DGAF as you have the importance to them of the Auchtermuchty Philatelists Society (-no offence to that fine institution)

      That Barnier, eh?
      – hes clearly a papist and that whole EEE_YEW is just ROME!

      If I was an english tory MP I think I would hate the DUP far more than other other party – Id almost be wanting a GE just to see them gone.

      The irony of the DUP doing EXACTLY to the tories what the SNP were ACCUSED of being tempted to TRY TO DO if they were propping up a corbyn govt – has went predictably unnoticed by the MSM.

      – we win this thing easy, just as soon as Nikki gets on telly and says “ENGLAND IS ROYSTON VASEY” … but we can leave – just get on my motorbike and ride to the sun …

      – and here’s a “bonus” –

      If you have not felt patronised today – here’s some lovely “new scots” telling us how great our country is

      – wonder how they will be voting in indyref2, for they will.

      It’s great how the unearned wealth of the London property bubble can turn a modest house into highland dreams.

      There has to be a golden median between full on maoism and Scotland becoming a theme park for the English middle classes.

      – but she’s learning gaelic – aw bless. Moved to Scotland coz England is shit – not the midlands, chipping norton, dales, the lakes … all the way up here. Maybe she will join the dots as she picks up her free prescriptions and so on. Or maybe not.

      Read the article in full for a jaw dropping lesson in LACK OF SELF AWARENESS – maybe if we call her out for “cultural appropriation” she might do one.

      The writing style is – take bill murray, antonia fraser, jakey trolling – bash their heads in with a meat tenderiser, liquidise the rest in a blender, then let the resultant soft bodied organism take mushed hands to keyboard.

      I read somewhere once that – genghis khan – fully killed 10% of the entire human race … and I would think to myself –

      where does the anger come from?


      The REV should stop arguing with trannies on twitter – they are mental – but since they are now the new Elect of God, any criticism of them is HATE and could lead to a twitter ban. The Father Ted dude is getting his arse felt – and its not a joke, at all, at all.

      – past my bedtime anyway. yawn.

    352. Gordon Blackhall says:

      Who knew brexit would be so entertaining !

    353. sandy says:

      Self harming is apparently a big mental issue at the moment. Was it WM’s Brexit that instigated this.

    354. sandy says:

      Liz @ 12.47

      Only two “yessers”. Be rest assured there are hundreds.

      I repeat, don’t believe in myths.

      Keep up the good work. That goes for you all.

    355. Cageybee says:

      Robert Louis thanks I had not seen all of that collection before just odd snippets. One of the replies to it has a reasonable analogy about brexit too funny but make your blood boil at the sametime

    356. yesindyref2 says:

      Sensible targets from SIC, as opposed to YES Scotland’s corporate wet dreams.

      “£30K – get the organisation started and branded
      The next £60K… the full-time … team we need to start
      The next £50K … full-time professional press and media team
      The next £40K … fully functioning campaign organisation
      Anything after that means we can do more

      It is likely that the organisation will employ a small and efficient team of around 5 staff members to work for Scottish Independence every day”

      Let’s go.

    357. Ghillie says:

      Liz g @ 11.41 pm Hallo 🙂

      Yes, mentioned on STV on line news as Nicola Sturgeon giving a speech at the Royal Society of Arts in London on Monday and will put forward a ‘common sense’ approach to brexit, ie single market and customs union. Yet again!

      Scottish Government paper to be published.

      BUT OH! I would so love it if she did say: ‘ this no/blind deal shit is not on’ ! Fine wording Liz =)

      The day may yet come when Nicola will let rip 🙂

    358. Petra says:

      BBC news: Bully boy Gormley handed the new role of Inspector of Constabulary for England and Wales.


      Professor John Roberston’s news from where you are:

      Scroll down for more.

    359. Nana says:

      Labour MEP David Martin said he feared the UK’s exit from the EU could turn England into “a very insular, inward looking country”, which could also change his mind on Scotland’s place in the Union.

      On this week’s Full Scottish, Corri Wilson’s guests are Toni Guigliano, Policy and Public Affairs Manager for the Mental Health Foundation in Scotland and Anthony Salamone from the Scottish Centre on European Relations.

      The taxman is taking almost a million pounds raised to fund help for veterans – because the Armed Forces charity is not allowed to be exempt from VAT.

    360. Nana says:

      I am going make today’s Tory panic attack really simple, as I’m sick of minute by minute commentary on May’s horsesh*t: they don’t have a deal. 1/~ They don’t have a deal with Barnier…

      An explosive set of leaked emails has shown DUP leader Arlene Foster preparing for a no-deal Brexit as the most likely outcome after frayed negotiations this week with the EU.

      Brexit talks reach stand-off as May brands draft deal a ‘non-starter’

    361. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Nana.

      Thank you for your lovely links. Kettle’s on!

    362. Nana says:

      Morning Smallaxe, good to see you here 🙂

      The UK’s closest diplomatic allies have “checked the UK into the Priory” recovery clinic, according to a scathing assessment of the declining influence of the UK Foreign Office.

      Checked to see if this has been posted, it has but worth reposting

      Full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. It’s a long thread

    363. Robert Louis says:

      People keep talking about whether N.Ireland will get a better deal for brexit, but they already have a better deal, before ANY discussions or agreements. You see, Every person born in N.Ireland has Irish citizenship.

      In practise what that means, is people like Arlene Forster and the rest of her bigot clowns taking folk out of the EU against their wishes, will ALWAYS have EU citizenship, no matter what happens.

      Indeed, just after the referendum result, DUP MP Ian Paisley advised people in N.Ireland to ALL apply for their Irish (EU) passports. That’s Ian Paisley jnr, of the political party in N.Ireland that fights tooth and nail to “keep ‘ulster’ British’.

      The utter hypocrisy of brexiteers knows no bounds, especially in N.Ireland (which, despite the nonsense by non MP Arlene Foster, actually voted to REMAIN in the EU).

      After Brexit, Arlene Foster will still have full EU citizenship.

      I don’t suppose anybody in the mainstream media will even bother to mention any of that when they next speak to non-MP Arlene Foster of the DUP.

    364. Macart says:

      Thanks Nana and good mornin’ to you and Smallaxe. 🙂

      Ayup. Yesterday did turn up the odd surprise right enough. I have a feeling that’s just the start of it right enough. It’s going to be a bumpy week, so wear thick socks. 😉

    365. Robert Peffers says:

      @ben madigan says: 14 October, 2018 at 9:29 pm:

      ” … we are now looking at the strong possibility of a No Deal Brexit.”

      The real truth, ben, is that we have been looking at a no deal BRUKexit from day one. The EU and their EC Civil Servants have maintained from the start that the EU will accept no deal that compromises the EU Freedoms. This to the extent they coined the phrase, “No Cherry Picking”, of the freedoms.

      Nothing that the Westminster Establishment could possibly offer can thus meet the EU conditions that all freedoms must remain or their can be no deal. The plan for the freedom of movement of goods cannot be achieved or it is a massive gap in the EU borders that would give smugglers an open door but would also be an open door to terrorists. The UK solution is to have border checks away from the border but who will prevent goods just crossing an open border?

      The freedom of moving cash across borders is already a big problem with such as Russian dark money being laundered in the city of London on an every day 24 hour basic and what is to prevent any would be migrant in either direction simply walking or driving across an open border. If they think there are too many migrants today how many would they get with open borders?

      There was never going to be a soft Brexit from the start and, in any case, Britain is not an EU member state so Britain isn’t going to be exiting,

      That means The Republic, Jersey, Guernsey and Man are gateways through the EU border as would be Gibraltar.

      Here’s just one scenario – a truck is on its way to Birmingham from Spain. It gets free access through the Chunnel. It heads to an inland holding area somewhere in south Britain and stops to comply with regulations on driver hours. The illegal immigrants get out and are already in England and have gone through no border checks.

    366. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      ‘Sock’ absorbers duly fitted 🙂

    367. Smallaxe says:

      Good morning, Macart.

      Never a truer word was spoken: From your excellent article on Wee Ginger Dug

      “I know what I believe politics should be and what I would hope it should aspire to be.

      It’s about care. It’s about keeping those in your care safe, helping them to put bread on the table and keeping a roof over their heads. It’s about tending to their hurts. It’s about service and compassion.”

      That’s the way to do it. 🙂

    368. Dorothy Devine says:

      Get out the bunting!

      Organise the street party!

      Wrap yourself up in the red ,white and blue!

      All you knitters get the needles out and make baby garments for people who can buy and sell you without a blink and whose precious baby will NEVER wear the items you make.

      Harry’s wife is pregnant!

    369. galamcennalath says:

      I have always thought the EU to be a good idea and an organisation which brought benefits to member states. Lots of criticisms floated around and I supposes I accepted a ‘no smoke without a fire’ view without looking more closely.

      However, over the last two plus years my estimation of the EU has grown continually.

      Firstly because I have learnt more about those benefits, and secondly I like the clear and open way they appear to do business as exemplified by their approach to Brexit.

      I honestly thought, and perhaps do, that a fudged Blind Brexit was on the cards. I am glad to see that doesn’t look like happening. The EU has several ‘set menus’ and third states can choose which one suits. They have a ‘special menu’ for full members and they will not compromise that by allowing chancers like the Tories from dipping into it. The EU to be sticking to their rules.

      Also, I really really like the way the other EU26 have Ireland’s back over his Brexit fiasco. The EU appear uncompromising in their support for wee Ireland. If only wee Scotland could call on such big strong friends.

      I was perhaps mildly Eurosceptic. I am now totally pro EU.

    370. Ghillie says:

      Dear Ian Brotherhood, I usually enjoy your posts, often you have me burst out laughing =)

      But your link to Edwin Hayward @ 10.10 pm was f##king terrifying.

      I thought I had a reasonable handle on what Brexit meant. And obviously Scottish Independence is our way out of this nightmare.

      But this is so much worse than I understood.

      No wonder the SNP are holding their cards close to their chest. And we ARE ready to hit the ground running.

      I just hope and pray that the good folk of North of Ireland, Wales and England are able to follow Indy Scotland’s example and make peace with their European cousins and rejoin without the entitled nonsense shown thus far.

      This link from Ian Brotherhood @ 10.10 pm is really useful, clear and understandable. A must read.

      Spare pair of breeks may be needed.

    371. Luigi says:

      Aye it looks like the Big Brexit Fudge Face-saver Non-Deal will be announced in a few hours. And then it goes to the vote. All hell breaks out in the Blue Tory party. No worries there, however. The Red Tory Cavalry (May’s pose of useful idiots) are poised and ready to ride to the rescue.

    372. Tackety Beets says:

      Sandy @ 12.26 AM

      Ref Free Masons in Scotland.

      I have a few friends who are members. One chap I have known since the 70s & is “well up” in the craft.
      In run up to Ref 2014, we began a conversation on the Indy situation eventually he pulled out his wallet & showed me his SNP membership card stating “I have been a member since I left school & started work”

      That said, I know another Mason who is the exact opposite. When asked any of the simple Qs regarding Indy, he can never answer anything to support his view.
      Fills his FB with all the SIU type bollocks Memes which I nearly always debunk (the power of Wings, thank you). LOL .

    373. galamcennalath says:

      Anyone else think royal announcements are timed to try to down rank other news?

      “Woman to have wean!” … wow, that has never happened before, has it.

    374. Luigi says:

      Royal Baby Announcement. Whoooppeeee.

      Major distraction klaxon blasting – keep an eye out for the real news later today. 🙂

    375. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab – Brexit must be an even-bigger shite storm than we feared, since they have been forced to play the Royal Baby card this early.

    376. Hamish100 says:

      I see there is some concerns over crowdfunding.

      How more democratic and open than the Tories and britnats dark monies linked with the northern Irish and right wing unionist groups.

      Davidson and Mundell keep running from the questions. The main ones, who are your paymasters? Have they links to right wing unionist groups ?

    377. Breeks says:

      Robert Peffers says:
      15 October, 2018 at 12:13 am

      Scotland only needs one document to make her case and it is absolutely watertight. That document is the one and only, “Treaty of Union”, of 1706/7.

      Spot on Robert. Scotland has that document and its provenance through the centuries. When challenged, when the definitive issue of Sovereignty is tested, Westminster will be obliged to concede or produce evidence to negate the Scottish Claim of Right.

      They cannot produce what they do not have.

    378. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee update on Auob

      Shit storm acoming .

    379. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the Groaniard has an article on the strike in Glasgow. Libby quotes GMB people like Shona Thomson and Rhea Wolfson without nailing that neither are likely to be sympathetic to the SNP administration. Hell, Rhea is a Labour candidate and Shona occupies the rather orange and unionist part of the GMB rainbow of colours. While the latter Libby might easily miss the former is common knowledge and should have been mentioned in her article.

      One would have to be a blind man in a black hole looking for the black cat that isn’t there not to see that those of a political disposition are channelling the understandable frustration of the care workers for their own ends. At the end of the day Labour created this problem and it will be the SNP that will fix it. That may stick in the GMB craw but then they only have themselves to blame.

    380. Smallaxe says:

      ronnie anderson: Good morning, Ronnie. Your link;

    381. James Barr Gardner says:

      Socrates MacSporran says:
      15 October, 2018 at 9:29 am
      … they have been forced to play the Royal Baby card this early.

      Waddins, Wains an’ widdin boaxes, so I guess now it’s aboot time fur widdin’ boaxes as they say wan in wan oot, so who wull be the wan ? Noo that’s really takin’ wan fur team london !

    382. HandandShrimp says:

      Weddings and babies are only cheer the state has to offer as politics, the economy and the country’s mental health slides towards oblivion.

    383. Frank says:

      Call Kaye this morning , on Dyslexia. All callers referred to the lack of early diagnosis at school. But of course no one made the link with the Scottish government’s programme of early assessment which could go some way to remedy this, despite it being bleeding obvious, and my text to them pointing it out.

    384. Ken500 says:

      The masons association are the Royal family. Their loyalty is to the British State. The Orange Lodge is affiliated to the Masonic structure. They do not allow equal women members. That is sexist and misogynistic. In fact illegal. The are racist they discriminate against others making racist remarks. The are bigoted they are know make bigots remarks. Bigoted,racist comment for the leaders. The do not allow Catholics and other people join. That is discriminatory. They black ball people and do not let people join. That is discriminatory and illegal under equality Legislation.

      They are a secret organisation. That is discrimatory and illegal under equality Legislation. They do not even reveal they are a member of a secret society. They are supposed to keep it secret. No one knows what they are getting up to but they are breaking the Law. There vow of allegiance is to the British Crown. The Royal are in it up to their heads. They are head of the organisation. There allegiance is to the Crown and support of the British State.

      How that squares with supporting Independence is questionable. The masonic lodge organisation is sworn to uphold the British State. That is one of their main objective. The Organisation is sworn against Independence, There main objective is loyalty to uphold the British State and keep it together. Anyone in the Masons who supports Independence is in the wrong Association. The masonic orgsnisstion is avowed against Independence and supports the British State.

      It is a misogynistic, racist bigoted organisation. If it is know members support Independence and the SNP. They would probably be black balled. They is why they keep it a secret. Or some who are supposed to keep it secret do not hold masonic values and tell folk. They are breaking their oath of secrecy. Or kidding themselves on.

      Masons should not even be allowed to stand as public representative. They should not be allowed to stand for Office. They hold unequal, bigoted and racist views. They are no qualified to equality and are making untrue declaration that they are fit for office to represent others when they are not, They are not true upstanding people. They support (secret) inequality are racist and bigoted. A member of a unequal and bigoted Organisation.

      The Organisation does not support Independence for Scotland or democracy in any way shape or form but support the British State and inequality. They discriminate again others. If they support Independence for Scotland and democracy they are in the wrong organisation. They should throw off the Sash immediately and join the SNP and march for freedom, equality and opportunity. A better run Scotland with equal prospects. Many are.

      You can’t have a foot in both camps. It’s an oxymoron. Throw off the Sash come out of the darkness and into the light. You know you want to. No more self harming. C’mon over join the fight for freedom. Get on the right side. No more discrimination. You will be most welcome and more appreciated, Develop more self worth and confidence, Be proud and happier. On the side of right. It is a broad Church. Get to it. Get the membership today.

    385. Ken500 says:

      The leeches are sucking the blood out of Scotland./UK/world. A bunch of parasites. The Tory Royals and causing mental health problems and poverty. Supporting illegal wars and breaking International Law. They are interfering in politics, economic and social policies. Acting illegally. They are supposed to be unbiased Heads of State with absoluteky no powers. They support inequality and bias. They evade tax and have become wealthy breaking the tax Laws. They waste public money like there is no tomorrow and are totally over consuming hypocrites. They should slim down obey the Law or bow out. The clsss system is whatbis wrong with Britain. It holds Britain back.

      There is an argument for a Constitutional monarchy with absolutely no powers for the Head of State. If that is what people want. This is not it. Illegal, unfair and unequal. Holding democracy back.

    386. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking news from 1 hour ago:-

    387. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking news from 9 minutes ago:-

    388. galamcennalath says:

      The DUP may be the biggest party in NI, but they don’t get enough votes to speak as the sole voice for NI.

      2015 GE 25.7%
      2016 Assemby 29.2%
      2017 Assemby 28.1%
      2017 GE 36.0%

      Their power is the power they hold over May after her disastrous 2017 election when she needed the votes of their MPs.

      This is another one of these stories where a balanced media would be asking more questions about the DUP’s influence rather than just accept they are entitled to have such disproportionate power.

    389. Breeks says:

      I hope the AUOB disquiet can be resolved quickly and privately.

      Treading on egg shells because I don’t know the back story, but the first thing that popped into my head was a line from a Hawick Common Riding song… “what tho’ our lads are wild a wee, and I’ll tae keep in order, mang ither toons, she bears the ‘gree, Hawick’s Queen o’ awe the Borders.”

      To paraphrase, our lads aren’t angels but they get the job done.

      Another song sprung to mind too, The Trees by Rush.

    390. Gerry says:

      “First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon will deliver a speech on the current state of play of the UK Government’s Brexit negotiations and the future of the UK and Europe. The speech will be followed by an opportunity to put questions to the First Minister.”

      Stream starts in 12 minutes, at 11:30am

    391. Kangaroo says:

      You would think that Theresa would have by now suggested to the DUP that a “Border Poll” may be necessary if a satisfactory agreement could not be reached on the NI/RoI border. That might move the talks along a bit.

    392. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And here’s where you can watch Nicola’s speech in a couple of mins:-

    393. Ken500 says:

      There has been massive work done in schools on additional needs support. Supported by the Scottish Gov. That is what the early tests (5) are about to identify those with additional needs etc. There have been massive recognition and improvements over the last ten years. More awareness and help. More specialist training for teachers giving amazing support. They is still much to do.

      It is (unionist?) councils who are not putting in place the necessary structure and who are always trying to cut the budget and not supply and support the essential services. Many schools, colleges unis now give really good support. Compared to ten years. The SNP are committed to all adults being tested. Those who fell through the net.

      The success depends on the (unionist?) councils allocating the funding and supporting education and additional needs support. Not cutting the budget. Supporting essential services. Not borrowing and spending like there is no tomorrow grotesque non mandated projects.That no one want with no business case Wasting public and not funding essential services.

      The improvements made by the Scottish Gov over the last ten years in protecting essential services to mitigate Westminster budget cuts, To raise awareness in schools. It just need to be simple improvements to help. Give support, recognition and allocate a bit more time for tasks. There are support workers allocated to additional needs as a right. These should be put in place by Councils The statuary limit for class sizes should be lowered (27/28) so Council (unionist) education dept are comitted to keep class room sizes down,

      The Scottish Gov has laid down in Law the rights of additional needs pupils being honoured. Some times schools do not honour the contract adequately. It is up to council (unionist?) education departments to enforce the law and put in place the required policies and strategies. The early testing identifies pupils with additional needs requirement and support. Simple measures.

      Often addition needs people have extraordinary talents and are on the spectrum. Silicon Valley is full of them. Everything in the world was invented by those on the spectrum. They shaped the modern world with extraordinary talents. Sonetimes the deviant attributes are not to the norm and not recognised.

      Too many people with autism and additional needs can end up in prison because of non diagnosis and inadequate support through ignorance. Diversity acknowledgement should be extended to all public services. They are often the first call for help along with the Health services. Early diagnoses is critical. Test at five or before.

    394. Positest says:

      This is a test comment. Please disregard.

    395. Positest says:

      This is a test. Please ignore. I wonder how long till Stu deletes these?

    396. Positest says:

      Test comment, please ignore. Comment test the third. Will it work properly this time?

    397. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 15 October, 2018 at 10:53 am:

      “The DUP may be the biggest party in NI, but they don’t get enough votes to speak as the sole voice for NI.
      2015 GE 25.7%
      2016 Assemby 29.2%
      2017 Assemby 28.1%
      2017 GE 36.0%”

      Indeed, galamcennalath, but in Westminster Establishment propaganda speech that translates into the DUP a majority in N.I. but in Scotland the SNP are a minority government.

      This really only exposes the truth that the three unionists parties at Holyrood are operating as a single coalition of British/English Nationalists.

    398. schrodingers cat says:

      nicola sturgeon
      “a head in the sand approach will not make the chequers ostrich fly”

    399. Nana says:

      BREAKING: Theresa May to make a statement to Parliament this afternoon on Brexit negotiations

    400. Positest says:

      This is a test, please ignore. Ok, have I fixed the caching code this time? Stu is really going to be annoyed at my spam if I keep this up..

    401. Robert Kerr says:

      Nicola speaking at the RSA in London NOW.

      Teresa to speak at 15.00 !

      Who is on the ball?

      Nicola’s speech has had to be planned in advance. Strategic planning !

    402. Dr Jim says:

      And now over to a defiant Theresa May but first a Royal baby
      It’s like Fawlty Towers down there *don’t mention the Scots*

    403. Jack Murphy says:

      Thanks Nana for your links earlier.

      I didn’t know anything about the First Minister’s visit to London today:

      ” Links to youtube and facebook for Nicola’s speech at 11.30am
      see here for info

      The RSA is the Royal Society for the encouragement 0f Arts, Manufacturers and Commerce located in Central London.

      LIVE at the moment and possible archiving later.

    404. Bob Mack says:

      I begin to realise Nicolas strategy. She is making it clear she is trying to serve all of Scotland which means she is pushing a welfare of the UK as a whole ,including staunch Unionists.

      At the end she can rightfully claim she tried in the best interests of everybody, but was rebuffed by a Tory government failing as a result of infighting between a hard Brexit or the numerous options.

      She can then rightfully put forward the choice of indy having been seen willing to compromise even at cost to her own ambitions. Very clever Nicola. Very clever.

      She has all the tools to lead the UK never mind Scotland.

    405. call me dave says:

      Excellent stuff from the 1st Minister there in London.

      Pity she’s not in charge of the negotiations…OH! 🙂

      Cards played close to her chest but I sense a line has been drawn.

      Not long now to whatever is going to happen.

    406. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 12 .20
      What she’s also done is take ownership of the breakthrough plan to keep the UK in the SM & CU..
      Now if thats what happened…. It was Scotland’s First Minister who put it on the table,when Theresa got stuck..
      Nicola showed her how to fix it!!
      Clever Girl..

    407. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola was excellent as always. A true stateswoman, skilled, confident, and competent, in a completely different league from the Tory wannabes.

      The voice of sensible compromise. However I am pretty sure she knows the outcome will be quite different. But means she can turn to Scots’ Remain NOs and say Indy is the only option – because all others have been rejected.

      I note she did say independence in the EU.

      And I reckon the first guy from the audience was a plant. Stupid question about the UK single market, border, and independence. You can tell this is going to be the main argument of BT2.

    408. Bob Mack says:

      @Call me Dave,

      Yep. She is always accused of just banging on about independence. Today she showed enormous maturity by outlining that politicians have an inescapable duty to serve everyone. She is backing this up by including everybody in the UK and their welfare as being of paramount importance.

      She emphasised that current choices being made are more about internal party politics rather than the greater good.

      Nicola was very inclusive and telling everybody they needed space on a lifeboat. She could have focused on indy,but chose to show the rest of the UK she had their welfare at heart as well.

      Indy is still on the agenda,but being portrayed as a last resort so to speak.

      I’m getting into this lifeboat because despite my warnings and pleading your all playing deck quoits and sunbathing whilst the ship goes down.

    409. Nana says:

      Just published

      Scotland’s Place in Europe: Our Way Forward

    410. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola say only two options are acceptable – stay in the EU or in Single Market.

      EU says only two options are acceptable – ‘Norway’ or ‘Canada’. And Ireland needs a backstop.

      Both have been totally consistent for a couple of years!

      May and the Tories say …. we want magic beans and a unicorn and if we don’t get them we will storm off in a huff.

      OK, the Tories have been consistent in this approach too!

    411. Capella says:

      Nicola’s speech was clear and concise, in contrast to every other UK leader on BREXIT. Leadership demonstrated in spades.
      Thx for posting the link Nana.
      Things seem to be moving fast now with a Royal Baby, a “momentous” (BBC) announcement, and Theresa May having to make a last minute statement in the Commons. Oh dear.

    412. skintybroko says:

      I’m sorry galamcennalath – they cant have our Unicorn!

    413. Ottomanboi says:

      Reading some comments here on Sturgeon’s address you’d think the FM was canvassing for the job of PM. Scotland first, please, let the rUK sort itself out. We ought not to be dragged into any British/English v EU politicking. And let the Irish get on with it too.
      Her party stands for Scottish independence doesn’t it? Some are having grave doubts on that one. I wonder why?

    414. Capella says:

      @ Positest – well my username and email has returned to the submit comment box fields as it once did. So if you have fixed something – thanks!

    415. Capella says:

      AND – comments are appearing immediately – as they once did. So again – thanks!

    416. Bob Mack says:

      The UK single market argument is a blind alley. Lights ,fires and cookers all over the rest of the UK would be going out.
      We supply them with electricity and gas and oil.

      Besides,many of the other products we trade may well be affected by the inevitable recession the UK would face post no deal Brexit. Trade in the internal UK market would inevitably be affected as companies downsize in light of tough economics.

    417. call me dave says:


      I noted that plant too! A’triffid’ maybe but they only caught folk who couldn’t see what was going on.

      Let’s see what the PM has to say later…good news I’m sure 🙁

    418. Iain mhor says:

      It’s not a caching problem, it’s a reading comprehension problem you have.
      Right there, above your comment box, bright blue hyperlink.

    419. orri says:

      Heard on at least one occasion.

      One of the reasons that the more patient in the nationalist side in NI, regardless of whether they were involved in terrorism in the past or not, are happy to not push too hard for reunification is demographics even if simplistic show that sooner or later there’ll be a majority in favour of it.

      There’s also the lack of border meaning that at least for those in the counties beside the Republic it’s almost as though unification has already taken place.

      That’s where it doesn’t suit the DUP to have a border between NI and Scotland/Isle of Man . If there was then there’d be an increase in the feeling that NI was actually more part of Ireland than the UK and the slide to reunification would accelerate.

      On the other hand whilst both Scotland an NI being in the EUCU would counter that that’d majorly increase the feeling that Scotland had a distinct identity from England so threaten the union that way.

      So the DUP preferred solution is a hard border between Ireland and NI.

      However the exact wording of the letter is kind of important as it’s had to see how NI can get a deal that means their even more a part of the EU than they are now. So the earlier version that said they should maintain that current relationship seems the more probable one. Which if that isn’t to impact the union implies no internal borders and thus the UK as a whole remains in the EU.

    420. ronnie anderson says:

      Thanks Smallaxe am dain everything right oan copy n paste but its coming oot aw wrang .

    421. Cubby says:

      The Britnat media and politicians are always banging on that Sturgeon is always going on about independence.

      The Britnat trolls on Wings are always banging on that Sturgeon is NOT going on about independence enough. Your tactics are pathetic. Completely transparent.

    422. Hamish100 says:

      bbc (UK) ENGLAND NEWS. What fantastic news coverage by the bbc on the FM speech. Did I blink for 1/2 second. Still we had a royal birth to contend with and Northern Ireland with a wee map showing Larne (Stranraer name omitted). Scotland not mentioned as we are Great Britain.
      Funny how a province of England gets more news time than us. Too finish off– the Faeroes wish to compete in the Olympics in their own name. No chance Scotland could do that of course. Waiting for a follow up tomorrow promoting Shetland. BBC News bias.

    423. Iain mhor says:

      @Positest ignore previous ta.

    424. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ottomanboi says: 15 October, 2018 at 1:14 pm:

      ” … Some are having grave doubts on that one. I wonder why?”

      Yeah! But! We all know who they are and we know where their real loyalties lie and what their real agenda is.

      We figured out long ago why those few doubters are always, I mean always, saying SNP BAAAD! We also note that. though few in number, their efforts here on Wings and elsewhere far outweigh their actual numbers.

    425. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 15 October, 2018 at 1:19 pm:

      ” … AND – comments are appearing immediately – as they once did. So again – thanks!”

      The main reason that comments do not immediately appear as they once did is because Wings is growing and if there are lots of comments to check and process they form a queue.

      Also if your name doesn’t pop up try closing your browser and restarting it. Also, if Stu is in the process of putting up a new topic I’ve noticed there can be a brief spell when a comment you are typing just vanishes.

      However, the main delay is simply caused because Wings is getting bigger and has more work to do processing comments.

    426. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers – well something good has changed right after Positest’s comment that he/she is fixing a caching problem. I am confident that this comment will appear right after I press submit. So I do hope everyone else finds the fix works.

      And my username and email are there in the right fields automatically. Great!

    427. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 15 October, 2018 at 1:19 pm:

      ” … The UK single market argument is a blind alley. Lights ,fires and cookers all over the rest of the UK would be going out.
      We supply them with electricity and gas and oil.”

      You are correct, Bon Mack, but you missed out the biggest two reason of all. The Westminster fiddling of figures in favour of England and the way Westminster reports the exports from bipartite United Kingdoms four individual countries.

      The biggest by far change will be that the oil & gas revenues from Scottish territorial waters will stop going into the Westminster Treasury and up to 98% of them will stop being accounted by Westminster as being from United Kingdom Extra-Regio Territories and then Westminster generously allowing, (just for statistics only), 8.4% of the revenue being from Scotland.

      The next biggest, if not the biggest, is how Westminster accounts for exports. Instead of classing the exports by the country that produces them the UK accounts them by where they leave the UK from.

      Almost every drop of Scotch Whisky and over 70% of UK Gin leaves the UK via English airports & ports and is thus counted by Westminster as English Exports. Then there is the oil & gas much of which gets classed as English exports not to mention that the electricity grid interlink to both parts of Ireland leaves from Scottish Irish interconnector and is thus accounted as English Exports.

      Then there is the National Grid Connection Charges. They charge the generating companies more for each kilowatt of power they add to the grid depending how far they are from London and inflate that false figure further by actually subsidising those generators in and around London.

      That’s just a few of the many Westminster fiddles that have robbed Scotland for centuries. On independence that revenue will instantly accrue to the Scottish treasury.

      Do not also forget the beef, lamb, wool, pork, soft fruit and fish that leave Scotland for England and the rest of the UK but and which then travels on to the rest of the World will be accounted as Scottish exports too.

      Those false figures of what Scotland Exports to England and what England exports to Scotland will be turned on its head.

      Here’s just one of the latest examples you may know about but not have realised the full implications about.

      I mean the recent closure in the borders of the fish processing plant and the removal of the work to England. Like much else of raw produce it is grown, raised or caught in Scotland but is then taken to England for processing. Not only are some of the finished products then packaged and returned to Scottish retailers to sell to Scots but they are then counted as English exports to Scotland.

      A great many Englanders are going to get a big shock when Scotland becomes independent and the real figures come to light but many of those most shocked will be English politicians who have been telling Scots they were being subsidise.

      Believe me I have indeed, in the past, argued with very high ranking English Government Ministers who really didn’t know the facts.

    428. yesindyref2 says:

      Really? Let’s try it …

    429. yesindyref2 says:

      … wow!

    430. yesindyref2 says:

      Brilliant stuff, thanks Positest, well named!

      And very well spotted Capella 🙂

    431. Dr Jim says:

      Yoon heads doing much exploding today, by tonight A&E will be full of them and the remaining ones will be here on WOS battering their wee keyboards having mental frenzied breakdowns as they repeat the last argument they’ve got

      *We don’t care if we die as long as you lot don’t win*

      Pretty *staunch* attitudes most of them

    432. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Nicola was superb in London. 🙂

      The first questioner from the press, was if I heard correctly Nick Eardley who I believe is from the British Propaganda Service. (Will need to run a repeat to check it.)

    433. sandy says:

      Ken500 @ 10.31.

      To quote a respected knowledgeable contributor to this blog, you are talking a load of PISH, synonymous with 99% of your contributions, repetitive, self-opinionated, somewhat bigoted postings. Am I the only WOSer who shares this view. I think not.

      Henceforth, I intend to ignore your future postings & have no intention of reading even the opening phrase, let alone the first sentence of your haverings. Give fellow bloggers a rest & try to come to terms with yourself, if only for the sake of your own health.

      Don’t think you’d be very popular in the pub.

    434. stu mac says:

      @HandandShrimp says:
      15 October, 2018 at 9:56 am
      I see the Groaniard has an article on the strike in Glasgow. Libby quotes GMB people like Shona Thomson and Rhea Wolfson without nailing that neither are likely to be sympathetic to the SNP administration.

      And of course the real dishonesty of the Guardian is shown in how they disallow comments on stories that seem to be lacking important facts and context. It’s as if they know it and don’t want to be challenged. You think?

      Once pre 2014 I gave a couple of (for me) biggish donations to the Guardian. Nothing since. Their coverage of the referendum infuriated me (and I was a switherer who eventually voted yes so not blinkered myself) and since them they seem to have become more and more establishment in their general coverage, not just Scottish news.

    435. Nana says:


      A few afternoon links, apologies if already posted.

      Ireland has (as predicted), been used as the pretext for Brexit failure.
      The options open to the UK are now only; North Irish independence or no deal brexit.

      Sinn Féin: we will demand referendum on Northern lreland in event of no-deal Brexit

      Europe correspondent asks
      What just happened? All weekend, news trickling out of Brexit talks became more and more positive. By Sunday lunchtime EU diplomats were certain a deal had been agreed

    436. call me dave says:

      Brexit talks hit ‘real problem’ over Northern Ireland border

      Big Auntie’s version just a few minutes ago.

      For those who don’t use BBC pages.

    437. schrodingers cat says:

      temporary backstop for NI agreed.

      tory rebellion a certainty

    438. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the Groaniard inc. Severin Carrell*. From the perspective of Cognitive Semiotics, it doesn’t look good. In fact, it looks a tad bad, mk.



      The suggestion that the activities of public relations professionals and news agencies help to shape news content in national and local news media is increasingly commonplace among journalists, academics and public relations professionals. The findings from this study provide substantive empirical evidence to support such claims. The study analyses the domestic news content of UK national “quality” newspapers (2207 items in the Guardian, The Times, Independent, Daily Telegraph and the mid-market Daily Mail) and radio and television news reports (402 items broadcast by BBC Radio 4, BBC News, ITV News and SkyNews), across two week-long sample periods in 2006, to identify the influence of specific public relations materials and news agency copy (especially reports provided by the UK Press Association) in published and broadcast news contents. The findings illustrate that journalists’ reliance on these news sources is extensive and raises significant questions concerning claims to journalistic independence in UK news media and journalists’ role as a fourth estate. A political economy analysis suggests that the factors which have created this editorial reliance on these ‘information subsidies’ seems set to continue, if not increase, in the near future.

      Keywords: agency copy, editorial reliance, journalism, journalistic independence, public relations

      Multimodality: A Social Semiotic Approach to Contemporary Communication

      Entry points and reading paths on newspaper spreads: comparing a semiotic analysis with eye-tracking measurements

      * the corporate minion who reminded us we live in a semiotic world.

    439. CameronB Brodie says:

      So what is Cognitive Semiotics, I hear you all enquire. 🙂


      Mental content, also called meaning, is ostensibly organized in a layered architecture based on integration of material from lower to higher levels. Thus, qualia are integrated in objects, and these in situations, etc. However, I argue and show that there are significant transversal bindings connecting material of non-adjacent levels, and that these bindings constitute the structural entities we call signs, or semiotic functions. The finding of these bindings therefore grounds semiotics in cognition, and it allows cognitive studies to progress into the realm of cultural phenomena, communication, and the semiosis of language and thought. What I present in this article is a special version of the very base of the approach we now call cognitive semiotics.

      Key words: Iconicity, symbolicity, semantic integration, mental architecture, cognitive

      The Constructionist Theory of Speech as Visual Semiotics

      Master Narratives and the Pictorial Construction of Otherness: Anti-Semitic Images in the Third Reich and Beyond

    440. TeamScotland says:

      i just wonder if there are cliques within the yes movement and independence support that want to control the agenda whereby individuals like myself and our ‘efforts’ are neither appreciated or seen as credible.

      i started my own campaign with GoFundMe (link above) to facilitate the drive towards the goal of independence yet even though i sent it to many in the snp (including the first minister) and other high profile figures purporting to support the cause my campaign has had over four hundred views and three shares yet no support.

      if my efforts are not seen as worthy then i can only conclude that there are cliques and hierarchy and this does not bode well for our ‘new’ country.

    441. schrodingers cat says:

      treeza getting a kicking from her back benchers

    442. gus1940 says:

      I have been using Aldi & Lidl for my main shopping since around the millenium and cannot understand why so many people still waste their money by throwing it at the English Big % Supermarkets.

      Having experienced the supermarkets in Belgium & France I look forward to Indy when Scotland can give 2 fingers to The Big % and enjoy the Continental Supermarkets such as Carrefour opening here supplied by daily ferries into Rosyth which can handle the exports RP talks about which currently leave thru English ports and are credited as English Exports.

    443. schrodingers cat says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      15 October, 2018 at 3:42 pm
      temporary backstop for NI agreed.

      tory rebellion a certainty

      correction, treeza has decided this is her plan. the eu has not as yet agreed this position

    444. Dan Huil says:

      House of commons: Britnat May turns up to explain… absolutely nothing.

    445. gus1940 says:

      I have been using Aldi & Lidl for my main shopping since around the millenium and cannot understand why so many people still waste their money by throwing it at the English Big % Supermarkets.

      Having experienced the supermarkets in Belgium & France I look forward to Indy when Scotland can give 2 fingers to The Big 5 and enjoy the Continental Supermarkets such as Carrefour opening here supplied by daily ferries into Rosyth which can handle the exports RP talks about which currently leave thru English ports and are credited as English Exports.

    446. Dr Jim says:

      @Dan Huil 4.22pm

      That’s exactly how I heard it too

    447. CameronB Brodie says:

      O/T re. History Woman. My advise is do not engage.

      Chauvinism is a term of French origin that:

      in its original meaning, refers to an exaggerated patriotism and a belligerent belief in national superiority and glory.

      a contemporary use of the term in English is in the phrase male chauvinism. Male chauvinism is the belief that men are superior to women.

    448. schrodingers cat says:

      i think what is being announced is that the uk as a whole will stay in the sm and cu until the end of the transition period???

      not sure

    449. Thepnr says:

      The Maybot is as deluded today as she was on the day Article 50 was implemented more than 18 months ago, unbelievable really.

    450. Bobp says:

      Just been down my local shops here in east dorset. Locals saying to me on hearing my accent, nicola’s speech so sensible, and wishing they had leadership of her calibre in westminster. Are you listening Scottish unionists?

    451. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 15:42,

      Well, there seems to have been some kind of agreement between the professional negotiators, but it doesn’t seem to have survived exposure for more than a millisecond to WM politics. The Tory Party is certainly tearing itself apart slowly over EU/Brexit, though, as it has been threatening to do since back in John Major’s time at least.

      (Which is one upside, I suppose. =grin=)

      Some historian on the R4 news this lunchtime was comparing the current situation with the events leading up to the 14-18 war, in that a bad outcome that was never seriously envisaged at the start of the crisis nevertheless came about because of confusion and the pressure of competing irreconcilable and intransigent demands.

      So the no-deal Brexit that no-one actually wants just took a lurch closer, and it’s all down to the “strong and stable” Mayhem Gang, its cargo-cult adherents and its egotistical political opportunists.

      It’s getting time to dump this farce.

    452. CameronB Brodie says:

      From the perspective of Political Realism, the principle duty of the Scottish government is to defend to nation’s sovereignty. As Scottish sovereignty rests within the people of Scotland, the government is duty bound to put the public interests above all else. The same principle applies to England but does not follow the same dynamic. England’s sovereignty rests in Parliament, with power divested from the Crown. From an English perspective, protecting national sovereignty relates to defending Queen and country, not the people.


      Political Realism in International Relations

      First published Mon Jul 26, 2010; substantive revision Wed May 24, 2017

      In the discipline of international relations there are contending general theories or theoretical perspectives. Realism, also known as political realism, is a view of international politics that stresses its competitive and conflictual side. It is usually contrasted with idealism or liberalism, which tends to emphasize cooperation. Realists consider the principal actors in the international arena to be states, which are concerned with their own security, act in pursuit of their own national interests, and struggle for power. The negative side of the realists’ emphasis on power and self-interest is often their skepticism regarding the relevance of ethical norms to relations among states. National politics is the realm of authority and law, whereas international politics, they sometimes claim, is a sphere without justice, characterized by active or potential conflict among states….

    453. jfngw says:

      Conservatives like Davidson oppose any special deal for Scotland because they are there to ensure Scotland is not successful. A bit like the forces that wanted to ensure Darien failed.

      If Scotland progressed in the SM & CU then it would expose their duplicity and the final argument for their ‘beloved union’ would be exposed to the majority. The possibility of Scotland thriving outside the UK gives them the willies.

    454. galamcennalath says:

      So May still just won’t accept that Backstop means Backstop.

      Some dictionary definitions ….

      a default arrangement that holds if all else fails

      substitute for (another) in an emergency

      an emergency precaution or last resort

      … doesn’t sound like something you want to be temporary!

      I mean, without a backstop, what actually happens when there is an emergency or all else fails? What is Plan Z?

    455. Ottomanboi says:

      A statesmanlike speech from the FM. I’m no fan but she stands metres over the heads of Brit politicos. If there were a second ref on the EU and the situation were reversed the EU would probably demand its pound of flesh for having been ‘messed about’, joining the eurozone may be part of the new terms. Ouch! The biter well bit….

    456. Dr Jim says:

      People who live in Northern Ireland and Scotland aren’t British, well the Prime Minister says so because she keeps saying she’s acting on the vote of the British people and yet the British people in NI and Scotland keep shouting *we don’t want any part of this shit we didn’t vote for it stop it*

      I wonder if the Prime Minister would’ve had the gall to keep saying this if the people in Wales had voted against this too

      I guess it probably would have come down to the absolute and inescapable truth that England is the UK and the rest of us are only allowed to call ourselves something else when England allows us to

      I bet the Yoons would still claim it wasn’t a dictatorship
      and I really do not understand why or how they still insist on being loyal to a bunch of folk in another country who so obviously don’t care a monkeys about what they want or think or what happens to them, I mean if somebody kept cheating you at cards you’d either punch them in the face or not play with them again

    457. schrodingers cat says:

      mmm, foster on tv saying ni must leave at on the same conditions and at the rest of the uk.

      mmmmmmmmm, does this means treeza is saying ni stays in cu/sm and britain doesnt???

    458. schrodingers cat says:

      no one understood this speech, certainly not the journos but also the politicians

    459. Doug_Bryce says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      15 October, 2018 at 4:30 pm

      i think what is being announced is that the uk as a whole will stay in the sm and cu until the end of the transition period?


      Correct : Brexit has been put into quarantine until March 2021.

      May has always been duplicitous : pretending a future trade deal can solve a NI issues. That however is fallacy (UK cant be in and out of single market) – Therefore EU rightly want to know what the fall back position will be once the transition period ends…

    460. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 16:50,

      Your conclusion is nonsense. If the UK (by some unlikely means) pulls back from the brink at the eleventh hour and 59th minute, there’s no exit and it’s status-quo-ante.

      With significant amounts of respect and goodwill jettisoned in the process, and enormous damage to the UK’s international standing bye-the-bye. Not to mention that of the Tory Party (=boo hoo=), and the pointless Labour Party near as much (=boo other hoo=).

      But if the backstop to the backstop (to the…) is eventually sorted out, the UK will then remain in the customs union as a vassal state, and we’ll be the vassal state’s vassal state(let). That should really please the yes-leavers.

      A lose-lose for almost everybody, it would seem. And that’s the very best outcome of Brexit.

    461. schrodingers cat says:


      tx doug, this is what I understood,

      the whole of the uk stays in sm/cu during the transition period.

      can kicked down the road

    462. CameronB Brodie says:

      Do we really want Scotland’s future to be determined by those who wish to turn the clock back on social evolution?

      Betty Friedan and Juliet Mitchell: Critiques of Ideology and Power

      My thesis attends to a common thread of critique in two founding documents of “second-wave” feminism: Betty Friedan’s book The Feminine Mystique (1963) and Juliet Mitchell’s article “Women: The Longest Revolution” (1966).
      I am interested in the ways both foundational texts de-naturalize male supremacy by defining it as ideological. The concept of ideology as employed by three notable social theorists – Marx’s concept of a social mythology disseminated by ruling elites to uphold various forms of hierarchy, operating through internal contradictions; French communist Louis Althusser’s concept of a social practice disseminated by the institutions of civil society; and Michel Foucault’s identification of ideology with discourses or regimes of representation that shape and delimit what can and cannot be said about a given topic – is central to both Friedan’s book and Mitchell’s article; although Mitchell, in keeping with her British socialist milieu, employs the term
      ideology much more extensively than Friedan, both authors provide a broad critical analysis of how ruling elites define and police “natural” and “deviant” forms of “femininity” and “the family” that can be summed up as a critical analysis of ideology.

      My thesis seeks to challenge and broaden the common critique of “second – wave” feminism as narrowly middle-class and elitist to demonstrate the importance of Friedan’s and Mitchell’s insights for subsequent forms of radical social thought. In the first section, I will examine both the draft versions and the published version of The Feminine Mystique to show how Friedan explores the intellectual, emotional, and psychological work done by conservative gender ideology, how she establishes its relationship to ideas of progress and temporality, and how she attends to the ways in which
      its gaps, contradictions, and omissions strengthen rather than weaken its hold on society. In the second section I will perform the same analysis for Mitchell. I will conclude by analyzing how the work of Friedan and Mitchell
      helped pave the way for the critical insights of postmodern Left thought.

    463. schrodingers cat says:

      now treeza has revealed her plan, I expect bojo to mount a challenge.

    464. One_Scot says:

      To be honest, I tried to watch the debate in the House of Commons and I am none the wiser, while gaining a slightly sore brain. 🙁

    465. Macart says:

      The summit on Wednesday looking to be a laugh a minute. 😎

      *Checks cupboard for snacks.*

    466. CameronB Brodie says:

      Anyone one up for more Cognitive Semiotics. ?


      The words “dialogical” or “dialogism” appear often in literary criticism and philosophy, but very little has been said about the meaning of these terms in the visual arts. When applied to visual arts, these terms usually become tropes similar to their counterparts in literary theory, that is, metaphors to support the analysis of cultural products that are materially self-contained (e.g., books, paintings) and therefore incapable of creating the living experience of dialogues. I propose that new insights can be gained by examining art works that are themselves real dialogues, i.e., active forms of communication between two living entities.

      These works can often be found among artists that pursue the aesthetics of telecommunications media. To name these works, I propose a literal use of the term “dialogism”. I will present four main ideas. First, it is important to identify and articulate the significance of the field of practice which I refer to as “dialogical art”. Secondly, there is a clear difference between dialogical art and interactive art (all dialogical works are interactive, not all “interactive” works are dialogical). Thirdly, dialogical aesthetics is intersubjective and stands in stark contrast with monological art, which is largely based on the concept of individual expression (e.g., painting, sculpture, drawing, printmaking). Lastly, because it employs media that enable real dialogues, electronic art is uniquely suited to explore and develop a dialogical aesthetics. Seen collectively, these notions will inform the identification and study of what can properly called “dialogical electronic art”….

    467. CameronB Brodie says:

      Too much culture? Back on topic.

      Mainstreaming the extreme political factors, social conditions and cultural perceptions propelling the far-right and neo-nationalism in Europe

    468. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      O/T With all due respect to your considerable erudition, Cam, I don’t believe your lengthy sociological interjections in the main thread are helpful right now.

      Your short postings are typically eminently readable and to the point, and it would surely be simple to put links to longer postings in OT where those properly belong, no…?

    469. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      I don’t want to be a pain Robert but we’re coming up to 450 comment on a cartoon, not an article. My posts may appear irrelevant but they are pertinent to an enlightened, post-modern, post-colonial, understanding of liberty, equality and democracy. Fair coment I would have thought.

    470. John Thomson says:

      Robert I agree

    471. call me dave says:

      Aye! The can kicked down the road to nowhere and Ms Sturgeon will have that possibility factored in.

      Frustrating YES but it’s coming YESt for A’that.

      Jings, there’s a lot of women involved in this which reminds me of this old saying.

      “It started with a lass and it’ll gang with a lass”?

    472. CameronB Brodie says:

      John Thomson
      Good for you.

    473. galamcennalath says:

      May showing where she stands.

      Her main priority is to keep NI in the same zone as the rest of the UK at all costs. And the costs may be considerable.

      I suggest she isn’t doing it just for the DUP but realises allowing NI to ‘slip away’ is a threat to her Union and beloved Greater England. She also knows Scotland will say “Me too! No? OK it’s IndyRef2 is that case.”

      However, even that isn’t quite the story. As Nicola eloquently put it, ‘Norway’ is a perfectly democratic and sensible compromise. That would solve NI and keep the whole UK as one. However ‘Norway’ just wouldn’t be a Tory Brexit, would it? Her second priority after the existential risk to the UK, is the existential risk to her party!

    474. Bob Mack says:

      May never answered the big question. What happens in N Ireland when the backstop finishes? There will have to be a hard border at some point if there is no single market or customs union.

      Long grass for now,but it will become live again.

    475. schrodingers cat says:

      @Bob Mack

      the plan is to negotiate a trade deal during the transitional period ensuring that the backstop for NI need never be needed.

      the real questions are, will bojo support this and will this deal get through the commons?.

    476. yesindyref2 says:

      The Cognitive Semiotics is very relevant to the thread considering it’s a cartoon, as they say, a picture tells a thousand words, but perhaps the feminism one is more relevant to Rev’s twitter!

      Pictures, art ‘n that (sniff) and I’d argue theatre as well being also a visual art, is also relevant to the growing unease in the culture sector in Scotland, of which I think 25% is thinking of leaving the UK with Brexit – including from Scotland.

    477. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says:

      What happens in N Ireland when the backstop finishes?

      Exactly! It has to kick in when it’s needed, and it has to last until it is low longer needed.

      Simple suggestion. Why not have the backstop of NI in CU & SM last until the people of both NI and Rep say it should end?

      An island wide referendum where both zones have to agree it ends. It can be called by either a Dublin or Belfast duly elected government and then take place across Ireland.

    478. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thanks, I was trying to make them all relevant in some way. The “feminist one” is a cultural critique of power and ideology, which I also thought relevant, given the main ‘power-brokers’ of Brexit are apparently women. Even though we know Brexit was largely funded from hidden sources across the Atlantic.

    479. Thepnr says:

      It would be ironic for the DUP if any kind of border between NI and the Republic turned out to increase support for reunification.

      I wonder if they’ve thought this one through before coming up with their blood-red line.

    480. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      the plan is to negotiate a trade deal during the transitional period ensuring that the backstop for NI need never be needed

      Yup, that is May’s plan in a nutshell.

      But given the Tories’ total lack of negotiating skill and inability focus on a trade agreement which the EU would accept …. that is probably why Ireland and the EU believe they need a watertight, binding, non time limited backstop!

      If the Tores hadn’t spent the last two years playing silly bu99ers with the EU they might have accumulated some credibility. Instead it is obvious they need to be bound by legal treaty, long term.

    481. yesindyref2 says:

      I see what you mean, but that’s a very deep topic. You’d have to examine whether the female would be more likely to support a world without borders, struggles and even politics!

    482. Thepnr says:


      For Mays plan to work and remove the need for a backstop after a transition, then wouldn’t the future Framework agreement need to stress that trade between the EU and the UK will be tariff free and share the same regulatory environment?

      Sort of like, you know a customs union and dare I say bits of the Single Market. Good luck with that lol.

    483. Hamish100 says:

      Davidson and her family N Irish connections and the DUP coming to the fore. No Surrender.

      The tories are the lowest of the low. Putting the bigots before the interests of the people of Scotland.

    484. CameronB Brodie says:

      Everything and every action or speech action is a site for social discourse, as a result of symbolic, semiotic signposts of meaning/ideology contained in the object/action. These convey situated representations of cultural meaning. Apart from biological women, naturally, as the cultural meaning of experiential women doesn’t count. 😉

      P.S. We do still have control over signposts? 🙂

    485. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wasn’t aiming to explain the world and everything, I just thought it amusing to talk about feminism, as Brexit and the DUP would turn the clock back on social progress and the social empowerment of women, if we let them. These women are sex-class tractors, Brexit will hurt women’s quality of life and their general well-fair the most. IMHO, the continued emancipation and social empowerment of women is under considerable threat from contemporary British nationalism.

    486. Clootie says:

      Having lived with my lovely but very bigoted Northern Irish grandmother during my formative years I can assure you that any hope of a rationale discussion with the DUP is a waste of time. Only those who have been subjected to the mindset of these people can appreciate the madness that motivates them during every waking moment. Normal pleasant educated and sensible people turn into raving lunatics in an instant over the most trivial of things ( trivial to any human apart from them)

      If I lived in the South I would dread unification.

      The Tories have no idea what they have unleashed by aligning with the DUP.

      …but above all do not let these bigots move to Scotland.

    487. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve stayed away from the experiential women thing because practically I’m against it, but psychologically and even biologically I’d have to be for it, it’s a bit of a mess.

      Yeah, signposts. So many things that can have a subliminal effect on us. I’m not convinced though that at a more basic level people realise the significance of the curriculum for excellence in schools, one of its prime aims is confident individuals, and it seems to me that with another one or two generations of confident individuals, it not only sorts out social problems, but would ultimately make support for Independence quite naturally, near 100% for those brought up in that education system, and maybe one reason the young are so much in favour of Indy already. Quite simply, they’re more confident in themselves and hence, the country they live in.

      Ho hum! Personally I don’t want to wait that long 🙂

    488. Meg merrilees says:

      Call me Dave

      isn’t there another ‘prediction’ that …”Scotland will get her Independence when the Country is ruled by two women”

      but which two? Nicola and Ruth; Nicola and Treeza; Nicola and Queen Bessie; Queen Bessie and Treeza?

      Aye – a lot of women involved right enough.

    489. CameronB Brodie says:

      Neither do I. 😉

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