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Wings Over Scotland


The good, the bad and the other one

Posted on October 13, 2018 by

(We apologise for the late arrival of this week’s toon, due to MI5 on the line, probably.)

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Greg Scollin

There can only be one left standing and we know who that`s going to be.

Kevin Cargill

Brilliant as usual. Clearly ponchos must be in short supply after Brexit!!

Conan the Librarian

Like the bowler on Arlene.

defo

Not a looker amongst them.
Remember the days when we thought women would make a better fist of governance ?
They’re out manning men!
NS and a few others excepted.

David

Very good. I see they are claiming the lights will go out in Ireland.

Morgatron

Ah – good old Arlene , shes a beautiful looking man. Topping as always Mr C.

Old Pete

Brilliant.

Street Andrew

Wherever else we might be……

……it sure as hell ain’t the OK corral

galamcennalath

Indeed. High noon is fast approaching. Excellent.

Bowler hat, orange neckerchief, and pin striped trousers. The pinnacle of Britnattery.

Latest …. “Such a barrier cuts right to the heart of what is at stake here. The UK is one nation. There should not be international-style borders within it. “

‘One nation’ … not for me it isn’t.

link to archive.is

Street Andrew

Government cut back mean GCHQ can’t process online traffic in real time any longer.

Under-staffing and steam valve computer systems just don’t hack it …OOooops! Unfortunate choice of expression 🙂

Expect online delays to become endemic.

X_Sticks

Tick, tock.

Oops, Theresa’s watch seems to have stopped in 1690.

I suspect only one of them has a loaded gun, but which one?

You do come up with some excellent work for such a slacker Mr Cairns! 😉

TJenny

Footshootin’ time. 😉

Luigi

Boom! Blast! Bang!

After the dust settles, which of these three lovely ladies will be left standing?

The ugly one in the bowler hat? Naw she’s deed.

The real bad ass with the Lee Van Cleef nose? Naw, only a matter of time.

My money is on the Boris Johnson lookalike. 🙂

Speaking of which, don’t forget the three-way shoot-out in the Tory part saloon (coming very soon). All for a few dollars more. 🙂

Grouse Beater

Ha,ha! Love the allusion to spaghetti westerns.

Personally, I can’t see the DUP unseating a Tory majority any time soon, Chris. Their bread and butter depends on Tories staying in power. And they’re plotting ways to stop Scotland’s attempts at self-governance – permanently. They need the Tories to enact their ‘federalism for all’ bill when that time comes. Call it Vow 2.

Your essential weekend reading:

The Catholic Church laid bare: link to wp.me

BJ

Do not forsake me oh my Arlene.

defo

Luigi. “All for a few dollars more.”
Brexit encapsulated perfectly Sir.

BTW, ever seen the League of Gentlemen ? 🙂

Bob Mack

Considering Foster is now saying that NO DEAL would be her preference over what is on offer. I would be tempted to “draw” prior to noon

Make no mistake, Foster would rather condemn the whole of the UK to absolute chaos in order that no differential existed between N Ireland and the rest of the UK.

If any of these gunslingers mean business it is Foster.

Socrates MacSporran

Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab Rev.Yer an awfy man, winding-up awe thae Yoons.

Can I just say, frae ma place as yin o yer hingers-oan – yer no alone Big Man, ye’ll get hauners frae us oany time.

When President Salmond comes to present the first Hero of the Scottish Independence medals – you, Prof Robertson and Paul Kavanagh better be in the first tranche o recipients.

Luigi

Foster Face has only one bullet – she better use it wisely.

Of course, there is always the possibility probability that the Red Tory Cavalry will ride to rescue Lee VanCleef’s rescue at the last minute. They usually do. Corbyn’s hapless pose of useful idiots. If they do, hell mend em.

Muscleguy

I think Ms Merkel really should have a Sheriff’s badge on.

defo

Count me in Socrates, i’m up for a pagger. Just.
15 secs, and i’m out. Not much lung left, but still nae fear!
Bring your own chib?

Josef Ó Luain

Old style, casual sexism doesn’t cut-it anymore – and I’m not referring to Chris’s cartoon.

Bob Mack

Oh oh. The polis has just arrived.

Valerie

Great toon as per.

@Bob Mack, spot on.

The DUP know deep down they are only lobby fodder, not valued Tory colleagues. To Tories, they are just necessary paid thugs, and the Island of Ireland’s history is littered with examples of loyal Ulstermen being used against the Irish, in support of the British.

The DUP would welcome a hard Border, but mustn’t be seen actually promoting it, so it’s got to be seen to somehow be imposed by the EU or Ireland.

That’s why it’s important to refer to it correctly, as the British Border, and if they want to depart CU, they must come up with the workable solution.

If UK takes that responsibility, it drives Irish Unity.

A Gordian knot.

Dr Jim

Arlene Foster says: *We want to be the same but different*

Angela Merkel says: *Can we all not just get along*

Theresa May says: *Bloody rules, why do I have to deal with this Bog trotter and a bally foreigner oh how I long for the days we could just shoot them all without listening to their Jibber Jabber, they don’t even speak English*

galamcennalath

Luigi says

there is always the possibility probability that the Red Tory Cavalry will ride to rescue

Indeed. Assuming there is a Withdrawal Agreement acceptable to the EU, it then has to go to WM.

Two big variables here are …

– how many Tories/DUP will vote against the WA because of backstop or accompanying future framework document?

– how many Labour will break ranks and go with the Tories?

if Labour (all or some) are stupid enough to opt for May’s WA, they may miss the change of provoking a GE.

WM is awash with stupidity right now.

Socrates MacSporran

defo @12.02pm

Being of East Ayrshire mining stock, my weapon of choice when things get tasty is a pick-axe handle, rather than a chib.

Bob Mack

@Valerie,

My background just a generation ago was staunch loyalist on my fathers side. Our family came from Cookstown in N Ireland.

They often talk as you say of Tory betrayal at the turn of the century that conceded an Irish free State.

I have no doubt that Mrs May sold Foster a faulty bill of goods, backed up by finance. If you do not appreciate the mindset of those “staunch “supporters of the DUP, then it is difficult to understand how intransigent they actually are.

I cannot prove this of course ,but my instincts tell me they are preparing for conflict already ,given their paramilitary links to the UDA. They are a different breed from ordinary people and view intransigence as a positive thing rather than a fault.

It won’t be long for the call to protect Ulster goes out ,if they are sold down the river. The stakes in this are much higher than people may think.

Ken500

Foster and May bluff it out. Dumb and Dumber. Voted out by Christmas? What a gift. May tries to bribe Foster with bobbles. A pantomime. A couple of clowns. Slap stick. Utter chaos. Burning up UK public money.

Takeour Blueback

@BobMack

It’s sad to think this will be the case.

Probably why May’s watch has stopped at 2 minutes to midnight!

T

fillofficer

if only merkel had twa pistols

defo

Sans 6″ nail Socrates ?
I thought miners were hard 😉

Proud Cybernat

Excellent as usual, Chris. Just to say though – we actually leave at 11pm UK time which will be 12:00 midnight in Brussels.

Clydebuilt

BBC radio Shortbread’s “Breaking the News”
At 11.37am were being told by a female how sexy Gordon Brown is.
5 mins later clues as to who is in a photograph ” She runs Scotland always up for a fight” . . . Other female “she accentuates her vowels” , que crass impersonation of Sturgeon.

Kangaroo

Dr Jim @12:29

Very good. I concur.

Dan Huil

High noon for brainless yoons.

Nice touch to have Foster in a bowler hat.

INDEPENDENT

I think it is Bo-Jo not Angela Merkel, and as mentioned earlier I thik it is supposed to be “High Noon”, approaching for Treeeeza!

Maybe Mr Cairns can confirm??

mumsyhugs

Which one’s which?

Cactus

Brexit shootout!

Only the bad and the other one are fighting out front.

Afternoon Chris.

Colin Alexander

If Scotland votes YES are we declaring independence and applying to the UN for membership and then later negotiating the financial terms of the divorce with the UK Govt?

Or we gonnae be in limbo for years, like the above cartoon, seeking permission from those vehemently opposed to our independence?

What’s the plan SNPers?

Cactus

Yer right Muscleguy, Ms Merkel should be sheriff to arbitrate the final event. This will be the time where May next tosses her timepiece to Angela, then the bad and the other one do a twinned-fire double-takeout at point blank range, as the sheriff whistles a merry tune.

“Freebird” is on the Wireless Radio Timepiece.

Guitar end solo.

Socrates MacSporran

defo @ 1.22pm

Six-inch nails could stick. with no nails, three properly-delivered blows in the time it could take you to extract the stuck nail.

x-x-x-x-x-x

Clydebuilt @ 1.27pm

‘Breaking the News’ is supposed to be a comedy programme – lighten-up.

x-x-x-x-x-x

Colin Alexander @ 2.23pm

Get a life ersehole, there are protocols regarding nations becoming independent. I have no doubts, given Birtannia’s penchant for waiving the rules, England will make it as hard as they can for Scotland to disentangle itself from the Union. They will stall for all they are worth, but, that will be like trying to hold back the tide.

Once we get a majority in favour of Independence – the UK is over.

Legerwood

Nana posted a link on the previous thread to a report by the Washington DC-based think-tank The Brookings Institute.

The report gives a useful overview of the situation re Brexit in the various constituent parts of the UK and in Ireland, republic of, and the implications for the UK’s constitutional set-up.

It does, however, repeat the Borrosa claim about an independent Scotland and EU membership.

A useful overview nonetheless and what may be a useful list of endnotes/references at the end.

Here is Nana’s original link:

link to brookings.edu

Proud Cybernat

“What’s the plan SNPers?”

We do what virtually every other country that has become independent from the UK has done – set a date for independence after a YES majority support has been achieved via a democratic vote. Upon that date we become independent.

End of.

Ken500

@ Craig Murray twitter

@ Douglas Fraser – ‘Johnston Press is not Edinburgh based’. It is based in Yorkshire

Johnstone Press has not been able to reconstruct it’s ÂŁ200Million debts. It has been put up for sale for ÂŁ3Million? ÂŁ197Million of debt. The plant and estate must be worth something or maybe not.

How bad is that that ÂŁ200Million of debt and worth ÂŁ3Million. Unless it is the Scotsman that is worth ÂŁ3Million. The ‘BBC has got it wrong again.

The journos have put it into the ground. Sank and buried.

Alex Salmond could get a consortium together to raise money and put in a bid. Or any other Indy supporter but they might just get the ‘title’. The name ‘Scotsman’. and not most else in assets or premises. It might not be worth it. There is always the National.

Another one down, another one gone, another one hit’s the dust.

Ken500

BBC turn it off. Unless really necessary. You will have a happier life. Not listening to that nonsense. Rise above it. Or take the consequences. Dull downed rubbish.

Tinto Chiel

BJ says: “Do not forsake me oh my Arlene.”

So bad it’s good.

Nay, sublime 😛

And I see our own Cactus makes an appearance too.

Do I detect a touch of creepy Mark Gatiss in the Foster phizog, Chris?

gus1940

Excellent article by Ian Jack in today’s Guardian.

It’s worth a read and if you have a couple of hours to also read the comments which reveal a lot of sensible observations by Remainers and a load of total bollocks from Leavers.

Jack Murphy

Here’s Ian Jack’s article in the Guardian archived:

link to archive.is

Robert Peffers

It’s a Brexican Stand-off, is it not?

The only question is, Who will blink first?

Great one again, Chris.

gus1940

Ken500 at 3.00

As far as assets and and property are concerned re Scotsman Pubs. it was comprehensively asset stripped originally by the loathesome Barclays and their minion Brillo and completed by JP.

First the Barclays sold off the old Scotsman offices and built a new Scotsman building beside the parliament.

When the Barclays sold SP to Johnston Press they retained and still do, I understand, the new building which was rented to JP.

Subsequently JP closed the Edinburgh printing operation and sold off the premises.

JP then moved out of the Holyrood premises and relocated to almost certainly rented offices in the 1960s Orchard Brae House.

So what assets are left – possibly the furniture and IT equipment in Orchard Brae House which may be leased which leaves us with just the 3 titles the values of which have been nearly destroyed starting with Brillo and completed by JP.

How much am I offered for this magnificent asset?

Thepnr

@Tinto Chiel

Last weekend in Holyrood Park, I saw a wee girl sing her favourite Yew Choob song to Jock Scot, it was this one 🙂

link to youtube.com

Cubby

Has no one in the pathetic media in the UK got the courage to ask Arlene Foster just exactly what she means by saying BLOOD red lines. How are they different from normal red lines? Promoting violence?

Also how long before we get the no surrender statement from the DUP nutters. Remember people in the UK vote for these nutters. Just another reason for Scottish independence.

Robert Peffers

@Legerwood says: 13 October, 2018 at 2:55 pm:

” … It does, however, repeat the Barroso claim about an independent Scotland and EU membership.

The only problem with that is that Barroso was talking claptrap.

There are several ways such a scenario could work out. Never forgetting that Scotland has a plethora of natural resources that the United Kingdom are reluctant, (for good reason), to relinquish. Under present circumstances the EU would lose those Scottish resources if Scotland is dragged out of Europe against her will by Westminster.

However, if the EU does not accept that the United Kingdom, being a bipartite union of kingdoms, means The Kingdom of Scotland becoming the legacy member state and the Kingdom of England leaving then the EU will lose the Scottish assets anyway.

What that leaves is the opportunity for the Kingdom of Scotland to negotiate terms with any other organisation including such as the UN & NATO, WTO or to attempt to set up an entirely new organisation. For Example one sometimes mooted in the past – a North Sea Basin Union of nations around the North Sea.

The Nordic Nations and Scotland form a potentially powerful body that neither the EU or UK will fancy on their doorstep and that organisation would also have control of the North Atlantic strategic gap that NATO would shudder if threatened with its loss.

I’m pretty sure the EU would be very, very pleased to either keep Scotland as a member state or to make a Scottish entry as a member state the fastest EU membership bid in EU history.

There really is no argument to be made against that argument – the UK hasn’t been so determined to not only subjugate Scotland but to hold onto Scottish resources for 311 years for nothing.

From the Kingdom of England’s point of view the ba is oan the slates. Thing is, when it trundles down the slope of the roof it will drop right into Scotland’s back court and Scotland can do deals that suit Scotland and whoever offers Scotland the best deals. Which, BTW, could very well be a much changed Kingdom of England. What it will most certainly not be is the USA.

Cactus

We are VILE, we are…

Vociferous

Independent

Learn’ed

Ecossians

Pure got the bag an everything, a Glasgow photoshoot may be in order… what’s that by the Bell’s Bridge southside and that to the side of Cessnock?

Clickety-clicks.

*Draw!*

Colin Alexander

Proud Cybernat

If I remember right, Craig Murray said most countries gain independence by declaring themselves independent not by getting permission.
———————-
Socrates MacSporran

Why be abusive? It’s a sensible question. As I said above, the most common means of achieving indy is you declare independence and then others recognise it.
———————-
The current Scot Govt is a minority govt. There are nearly as many unionists in the Scot Parl as SNP MSPs ( 62/59) leaving the SNP reliant on the 6 Greens.

When indyref was held in 2014 the SNP Scot Govt had a majority of seats.

So, who represents the sovereign people?

The minority Scot Govt? Unionist MSPs? Scotland’s MPs (including the Tories)? Who?

Do we declare indy with a yes result, hold elections to the now “sovereign” (I know, it’s the people who are sovereign) Scottish Parliament and the largest party forms the Govt and negotiates the union dissolution with rUK ?

Or will there be a unification govt formed of all parties or what?

Proud Cybernat

If I remember right, Craig Murray said most countries gain independence by declaring themselves independent not by getting permission.

We get the “permission” only of the people of Scotland in a democratic vote to set our Independence Day. End of.

Pete Barton

@ Cubby – yes, I’ve been wondering about the ‘blood red’ lines too.

And peace loving nations should rightfully be shunning that kind of expression.

I do understand a little of the NI politic, red hand of Ulster etc..but I’m appalled no one has questioned Arlene on that?

Sharny Dubs

Another cracker Mr C!

Do I note a slight resemblance in Merkel to Depudy Dawg??

ronnie anderson

Nae popcorn . Tamales hot Tamales

Valerie

No one will question Arlene??? Of course they won’t, they not only control the violent element, few journalists properly understand the politics.

No one questions the UK gov’t continued use of jingoism and war references.

The UK msm continues it’s lurch to the Right, in support of the gov’t agenda.

Tommy Robinson on Newsnight twice.
A Jarrow Labour Councillor, Stephen Hepburn, talking on Beeb about the “extraordinary” example the Orange Order can provide.
Tory and just as many Labour MPs, reporting immigrants to the Home Office.

It’s just getting started.

Tinto Chiel

@Thepnr 4.24: you’ve just reminded me I passed Jock Scot and his battered topper when I was heading home. Very witty song.

It’s awful how these vile cybernat parents indoctrinate their children. There was a wee boy “kiltie” (pace Gorgeous George) in front of us on the march who delighted some American tourists by dancing along and shouting “Dump Trump!” at regular intervals.

galamcennalath

Xenophobes, homophobes, oppressors, misogynists, climate change deniers, human rights opponents, hypocrites, the religious right, elitists, greedy barstads … why are these groups always found skulking together under the same stone and are so often occupy the same overlapping sets within the great Venn diagram of humanity?

“The Brexit fanatics go for broke. This is their chance of counter-revolution”

link to archive.li

Andrew smith

Arlene looks like (king) Billy the kid !

Ken500

Arlene Foster does not get the majority vote in Nl That is the point which many are complainting about. 200,000? She/DUP is in a minority, Pop 1.8 million. Electorate? They do not have a majority in what would have been a Stormont administration. The DUP intransigence played a major part in the Stormont administration being suspended,

It is a different situation now than the Troubles years. Demographically Ireland could vote to reunite. If Foster crashing the economy. She could fine herself on the way out, along with May. It is only theTories propping up the unionists parties in NI for votes in Westminster. It is likely Arlene could go down with May. NI is a different place today. There is support to reunite. NI would be better off. The IR has a better economy. More successful. NI is subsidised by Westminster unionists for support. Foster is showing herself up.

Universal, credit is a major problem. Unrolling. It is reported the Tories constituency parties can’t even get candidates to stand.

The Tories will have to engineer a GE they can lose. That is what the unionists Parties alway do. Leave others clear up the mess. They are unable and not fit for government. Who want’s the

yesindyref2

Actually, much as I too like taking the rip of Colin Alexander, his questions are sensible ones, and ones that we are going to be asked when it all kicks off, and ones that answers need to be ready for, preferably from the Scottish Government itself.

Tha full answers aren’t available now, because at this stage we don’t know if it’s to be an S30 and Edinburgh Agreement II, or some other means, and the answers are dependent on that. If, for instance, it’s a legal and court means, that’s potentially a different route from the realpolitik route of Cameron and Salmond, unless the UK Gov rolls over, which frankly it would be wise to, and which it did do after the Miller UKSC case, which is some indicator.

It will need a roadmap, there was one for Indy Ref 1, and it will be needed for Indy Ref 2.

James Barr Gardner

Seen cartoon and thought MILK, LEMONADE, CHOCOLATE !

Clapper57

Funny is it not that Angela Haggerty has the gall to make a sneering remark via twitter about WOS journalistic credentials, in response to someone praising him, by tweeting “I wouldn’t call googling stuff real investigative journalism”.

The same Angela Haggerty who praised the Scottish Tory Mp’s on a Scotland Tonight programme for standing up for the ‘Scottish’ fisherman via Brexit deal…..I would have thought that if she herself was such a good investigative journalist she would have perhaps….smelt a rat….and UNEARTHED the information that…. the ‘Scottish fisherman’ the Scots Tories were standing up for were….oh my…a monopoly of five of the wealthiest families controlling a third of Scotland fishing rights in Scotland.

Funnily enough WOS has in the past via his posts and his twitter a/c challenged nay exposed the dubious alliance between certain Tory supporting Brexit ‘Scottish’ fisherman and the Scottish Tories…but then I suppose ….unlike Angela he was not naively taken in by this sudden uncharacteristic support by Tories for the ‘wee’ fisherman.

I am sure WOS knew exactly why Scots Tories were ‘championing’ the ‘fisherman’s’ cause …..and with the recent information coming to light on this scandalous monopoly one is now 100% clear on the allegiance of both Tories and ‘fisherman’ sides…..follow the money.

Pity Angela was not a good enough journalist to work this out and then investigate…perhaps she had another more pressing agenda to address.

yesindyref2

Personally I think it’s almost certainly going to be an S30 and EA2, after the style of the originals. If they are witheld it goes to court, and I don;t think Brexit can go ahead in the terms of the Article 50 as that has to be in terms of the UK Constitution which would be haingong on a court hearing and judgement, potential appeals, and further potential appeals.

If that were to happen and court proceeding be inititiated I think what we’d see is emergency sessions of the HoC and the HoL, with the first reading, second and vote, third and vote, a runner take any paperwork to any committee stages, and wait to take any paperwork to the HoL and them to do the neccessary, the runner to go back to the HoC and the HoC to do its final stuff, the runner to go to Buck Palace to the Privy Council and HRH to get the signature and then to where it goes next.

All in 5 hours max, they’d have a new event at the Olympics called the political marathon, and a blockbuster Holyrood movie called “Scotland the Invincible” (Ⓒ ™ yesindyref2), and after the YES vote I retire filthy rich and I do mean, filthy.

Scottish Steve

Arlene Foster looks like Ruth Davidson’s long lost sister. Her, Davidson and May seem to form some kind of unholy unionist trinity.

TJenny

Well Angela Haggerty’s wee me, me, me, stroppy intrusion into WOS twitter spat has obviously caught BBC’s attention, as she announced 2 hours ago:

‘TONIGHT: I’ll be on @bbc5live from 11pm taking a look at tomorrow’s newspapers. Which means I’ll be sober. On a Saturday night.’
(2 replies . 0 retweets 4 likes)

Why? Does anyone still employ her as a journo?

James Barr Gardner

I see Treeza’s got a chocolate watch…..

mr thms

If there is a deal with the EU, the UK will leave all its EU treaties and remain in the EU during a ‘transitional arrangements’ until the end of December 2020.

However, I have read that should there be “No deal”, not only does the UK leave all of its EU treaties, it will also leave 70 other treaties!

I have always had a feeling the Scottish Referendum, and the EU Referendum were connected to the Treaty of Lisbon because the dissolution of the UK and the internal enlargement of the EU would fit in really well with its aims.

So the more treaties the UK leaves the merrier for Scotland.

galamcennalath

yesindyref2 says:

going to be an S30 and EA2, after the style of the originals. If they are witheld it goes to court, and I don;t think Brexit can go ahead in the terms of the Article 50 as that has to be in terms of the UK Constitution

Sounds fascinating. So you are saying Brexit could be held up / stopped by court action if S30 denied?

Robert Peffers

@Proud Cybernat says: 13 October, 2018 at 5:03 pm:

… If I remember right, Craig Murray said most countries gain independence by declaring themselves independent not by getting permission.
We get the “permission” only of the people of Scotland in a democratic vote to set our Independence Day. End of.”

Very well said, Proud Cybernat. Anyway, just like the BBC and the other SMSM media outlets, It isn’t what Craig Murray said but what Craig Murray omitted to say that matters in that sc scenario.

What Craig didn’t say is that in the vast majority of the cases he refereed to which made a declaration of independence, (which is just another way of saying they were newly claiming their own sovereignty or were claiming back the sovereignty taken from them by another state).

The bit Craig didn’t say is that in most such declarations they came after a long protracted and bloody confrontation with their erstwhile empirical masters.

That is another sovereign state who exercised sovereignty over the state now declaring themselves sovereign in their own right.

Now here’s the thing. The state that claims to hold sovereignty over Scotland in reality does not legally exist and factually is not a sovereign state and not even legally the sovereign monarchy it purports to be.

Westminster acts like a sovereign state but calls itself a sovereign monarchy a.k.a. “The United Kingdom”.

Trouble is that it is a two partner united Kingdom and as such each partner kingdom must, in order to have agreed to unify, have been equally sovereign. Not only that but the Treaty they both agreed to actually states in that agreement that the Kingdom of Scotland’s people, not their monarchy, are legally sovereign.

So just where, in that treaty, does it grant the Kingdom of England sovereignty over the legally sovereign people of Scotland?

Bear in mind that legally, in the Kingdom of England it is the Monarchy of England that is legally sovereign and that was written into the laws of the kingdom of England in 1688 while the treaty with Scotland was agreed in 1707 and the treaty acknowledges the people of Scotland should remain sovereign in perpetuity.

Lastly when did the two partner United Kingdom become a four country union of countries with England as the master race?

Which is why the Scottish government, elected by the legally sovereign people of Scotland are currently asking the international courts to consider that very claim after the Supreme Court of the so called United Kingdom failed to contest the Scottish Claim of Right that dates back well before the Treaty of Union but has been reaffirmed several times since.

Is there anything in that explanation that, while long and involved, is not clear and easy to understand?

Anyone got any reasonable points to make to disprove the facts?

If so lets wingers debate them.

Croompenstein

@TJenny

Why? Does anyone still employ her as a journo?

TJ, same reason they employ Loki.. 🙂

Meanwhile….

link to crowdfunder.co.uk

*I was hoping we’d be independent before this…

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath
I think it could, potentially. We may get more of an idea after the soon to come UKSC ruling on the Holyrood EU Withdrawal Bill (and any potential appeal), and then the ECJ on the Brexit cancellation thing.

Salmond was a realpolitik statesman, Sturgeon’s background ls Law, and in Wolffe she has a perfect advocate, as he was desperate back in the 90s, apparently, to test stuff about Scotland in court.

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath
Just adding to that, it’s undeniable that Scotland has our own Law, and that is also clearly part of the UK’s Constitution.

It’ll be funny indeed if all the discussion in Wings – RP, Legerwood (best wishes), Liz g, Meg M, yourself, myself and RJS and all the others, turns out to be the essential factor. And a kick in the teeth for those trolls who wish to undermine our legal establishment.

Robert J. Sutherland

galamcennalath @ 19:30,
yesindyref2 @ 19:07, 19:52,

I have argued the same in the past, and I don’t see any change in circumstance. S.50 requires that a country must secede in accordance with its own constitution, so if any Brexit-related constitutional issue is “live” before courts anywhere, the process must necessarily stall until the issue is settled.

And of course if the issue is settled in favour of a Scottish exception (less likely given the demonstrated unwillingness of the UKSC in particular to venture into matters “political”, but still, not entirely impossible), Brexit must stop completely in its tracks.

In that circumstance there is indeed the possibility that a quickie deal could be cooked up between the SG and UKG.

Which might even – dreaming along now – not be a rapid S30, but instead a total separation deal, a “quickie divorce” Las-Vegas-style to allow EngWaNiLand to proceed on its merry way unimpeded.

Dreaming aside, the exit process could get seriously stalled, since one issue (I seem to recall) is already on its way to the ECJ, and others may follow.

Could the UKG then easily bluff its way out of this one, in time-honoured fashion? Would the EU27 let it?

robertknight

Angela: “Are you going to pull them pistols, or whistle The Sash?”

Macart

Heh! Neatly done Chris. 🙂

Scot Finlayson

If the price of Brexit was Scottish independence, 77% of English Conservatives would be willing to pay it.

If the price was the collapse of Northern Ireland’s peace process, 73% of them would likewise be content;

among leave voters in Northern Ireland, who are overwhelmingly unionist, that figure rose to 87%,

while 86% thought a yes vote in a second Scottish independence referendum would be a worthwhile price for Northern Ireland to leave the EU.

link to archive.is

Robert Peffers

@yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2018 at 8:01 pm:

” … It’ll be funny indeed if all the discussion in Wings – RP, Legerwood (best wishes), Liz g, Meg M, yourself, myself and RJS and all the others, turns out to be the essential factor. And a kick in the teeth for those trolls who wish to undermine our legal establishment.”

I’m not kidding, yesindyref2 that I learned all this stuff from an old semi-retired Kings Council way back when I was still a schoolboy. I used to trail round the many second-hand bookshops and pawnbrokers and such like in the late 1940s. On good days if I had bought an old book I would go into Greyfrier’s graveyard where it was always quiet and peaceful and read. The old guy would often be there also reading and he struck up a conversation about a book about Scottish battles I was reading.

Turned out he was a Scottish Nationalist and he was to tell me lots about the legal structure behind the history of Scotland. Not one single thing that old man said has been proven wrong and that’s going on 70 years ago.

I’ve been pushing that legal history all my adult life. Have you any idea how frustrating that has been? Particularly when trying to get the truth across to dyed in the wool nationalists.

The point is that the facts are indisputable but until enough Scots accept the truth that they really are legally sovereign and act upon that sovereignty together by backing a Scottish political party in government by giving them a majority mandate there is no way to officially exercise our legal entitlement.

Chick McGregor

Ach Chris, you missed oot Fluffy, The Man with no Shame.

yesindyref2

@galamcennalath / @RJS
I might be reading too much into it, but I think it’s all been part of a deep plan, taking advantage of the no-lose Miller case (Independence doesn’t care about Sewell but it represents the devolutionists who didn’t support Indy) to kick it off.

But it would have to be a referendum though, to test the democratic will of the Scottish people, and probably legally, the UK can’t just kick us out, nor could the Scot Gov or even Scot Parliament agree, without consulting us, the people, or it could be taken to court.

The EU too is stuck in the terms of the Lisbon Treaty, so it has to observe its treaty and member state laws which enact it.

Bob Mack

At the rugby final at Old Trafford tonight the crowd are chanting the name of Tommy Robinson. How very sad. I’m sure his application to join UKIP will raise their vote Base.

England is lurching dangerously to the far right and truly I hate everything about it. We must be free of them before that happens.

Ian Brotherhood

There’s that old joke about the guy on his deathbed and the wife’s there…

‘Sandra, you were with me when Clydebank was blitzed…you were with me when I got my jotters from the yard…you were with me when I got knocked down by that tractor, an ye’re here with me right at the end. Sandra, hen, ahm startin tae think you’re a fuckin jinx.’

Whoever’s giving Angela Haggerty work these days might want to think about that one.

Robert J. Sutherland

Scot Finlayson @ 20:56,

Yes, there is little political downside for the London Regime to jettison their North British “spongers”. Could even raise cheers from rather more people than rabid xenophobes due to the sourgrapes effect.

There would be a downside economically, though, which the UKG must be acutely aware of, despite all its propaganda about being our “sugar daddy”. =cough=

Also a downside for the entire English Establishment, a considerable loss of face, much worse than losing their former overseas colonies.

Two major hurdles, but both the Tories and Labour seem obsessed about appeasing the Leaver populace of England, so if things get tight enough, who knows…?

TJenny

Croomps – aye and aye, sigh. 🙁

Robert Peffers

@yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2018 at 9:07 pm:

” … But it would have to be a referendum though, to test the democratic will of the Scottish people, and probably legally, the UK can’t just kick us out, nor could the Scot Gov or even Scot Parliament agree, without consulting us, the people, or it could be taken to court.”

All true but you missed a trick. Thing is it would be very, very chancy. That trick is to slip in a very carefully worded small item into a pre-election manifesto. Then upon winning the election the SNP, with probably a help from other pro-indy parties. Claim a mandate was given on that manifesto promise. It does have the advantage of the traditional party manifesto promises they never make good on.

However, taking into account that the people are legally sovereign it would legally stand.

The big danger is those soft Britnats who we know voted SNP for Holyrood but not for Westminster for their own selfish reasons of taking advantage of the good things the SNP have done might forgo their support for things like free prescriptions to maintain their Britishness.

They are, though, like myself, a dying faction in the equation and time alone will take care of that. It is, though, very hard to know what the figures are of how much of the more elderly are indy and how many Britnats.

Going by the video footage of AUOB marches there is a large proportion of more elderly marchers for Indy.

Dr Jim

You can’t debate with a monkey:

You can’t debate with British nationalists because just like Kezia Dugdale admitted on telly *There are NO circumstances in which she would vote for Independence* NO circumstances!

In that statement what Kezia Dugdale did was to confirm that British nationalists are total and mendacious idiots and no one should ever even bother to talk to them again, and in the case of Dugdale anyone with that type of mindset should have no place representing people in Scotlands parliament

Kezia demonstrates the British nationalist view clearly and concisely that they are beyond flexibility of thought and reason

Two people in the road facing an oncoming car the British nationalist won’t push you out of danger, so you both die

Now I may be indulging in Absurdum Redundum but it is always always the result of debating with monkeys, inevitably they will throw their Poop at you and there are NO circumstances in which they will not

Robert Louis

I see that haggerty lass on revs twitter, is making it abundantly clear which side of the independence campaign she is on.

Well, at least we all know now. No remaining doubt.

Bob Mack

Everyone remember when the new media supporting independence arose prior to the actual vote?

Every one of them, Loki, Haggerty, Bella et Al wanted to be the main voice of independence and recognised as the vanguard in the endeavour. A chief among chiefs.

Sadly, real life does not often match your wishes and the Rev became the pivotal figure for the independence fight. Deservedly so. Since that time all the others have been targeted by Unionists interests, and have all succumbed to the pieces of silver.

They failed to promote themselves then, and they are still failing, because to them independence is about creating a financial opportunity for themselves.

Looking at the success of the Rev must make them sick.

If they were anywhere near as good they would have thrived.

Jealousy whether personal or professional is never a good look.

sassenach

Bob Mack @ 9-12pm

It was a Cup Final rugby match between two long-standing rival teams (barely 10 miles apart), and you think that supporters were chanting a political slogan?? You obviously don’t understand the locals!!

The chant was “Warrie, Warrie, Warrington”, nowt to do with Tommy!

Robert Peffers

Breaking 2 hours ago:-

link to youtube.com

Breaking 1 hour ago:-

link to youtube.com

Phil

Robert Peffers says:
13 October, 2018 at 9:27 pm

“Going by the video footage of AUOB marches there is a large proportion of more elderly marchers for Indy.”

There are. There is. We will be there for Scotland and Scots as long as we are able.

Dr Jim

@Ian Brotherhood 9.15pm

For a self admitted uneducated person *Captain Haggerty* calling all who contribute on and to WOS *Yer Da* proves beyond the shadow of doubt the woman is completely delusional as she must believe she has an inate intelligence superior that the rest of the population are denied

Captain Haggerty is what I loving like to call a *walk off*
that is to say before God sends us down to experience life on earth we queue up to receive the much needed intellect to survive, Ms Haggerty just up and walked off

Polscot

Bob Mack says:
13 October, 2018 at 9:12 pm
At the rugby final at Old Trafford tonight the crowd are chanting the name of Tommy Robinson.

Some people stating that the crowd were actually singing in support of Warrington “oh Warrie Warrie, Warrie Warrie Warrie Warrington”. I watched a clip on twitter and couldn’t decide either way, but it would seem to be rather odd that in a Super League Grand Final that a whole section of fans would suddenly start a chant for a far right wing extremist.

It seems that (again on twitter) the main people promoting the idea that the fans were singing in support of the extremist rather than their team are themselves unionist extremists from Belfast and their ilk.

galamcennalath

Bob Mack says:

Jealousy

Jealousy and Envy. The RevStu has what they thought was theirs, and he also has what they want but will never achieve.

galamcennalath

Breaking, Foster says she regards a no-deal Brexit as the “likeliest outcome”. Perhaps that gives an indication of DUP intentions,

link to reuters.com

Gfaetheblock

Bob Mack @ 9.34

Loki, had a terrible time post referendum. Just a prize winning author, QT panellist and now has a show on the BBC.

I am sure he is consumed with jealousy!

Ian Brotherhood

@Dr Jim –

🙂

The story of how certain individuals in the Indy/Yes movement prospered – yea and verily, they scattered their seed over the multitudes and those seeds did become books and sit-coms and mini-series and they did win prizes (and it was good) – will all come out in the wash some day.

Not that I ‘know’ any of it for sure, but we’re all grown-ups here and capable of making educated guesses.

(It’s not my place to go fingering people. Rock’s already cornered that market!)

Cactus

Burp of the now.

Gaun clubbin’

Yes2 time.

Thepnr

Corporal Haggerty gets all her scripts from George Galloway.

TJenny

galamcennalath – and Stuey also has thousands of us ready and willing to give him support if/when he needs it.

What do the simpering, mealy mouthed me, me, me crowd have but an eagerness to be exploited by media yoons. They’re just wee narcissists, who’ll never, ever have Stu’s forensic ability to debunk lies coupled with an entertaining, wicked way with words.

Jealousy and envy writ large from them.

Cactus

Staggerin’ aboot Glasgow like…

Yes bar 1st, ra Solid then ontae ra Admiral Starbar.

Fracking frack England, hey U crazy fucks!

Scotland is good.

Robert Peffers

@ Gfaetheblock says: 13 October, 2018 at 9:57 pm:

Loki, had a terrible time post referendum. Just a prize winning author, QT panellist and now has a show on the BBC.
I am sure he is consumed with jealousy!”

Here’s a wee thought or two about that post.

I’d no idea about whatever prize of authorship was, Gfaetheblock, so I googled, “Loki”. Go try it yourself – I’m no wiser.

QT panellist on BBC and having his own show on the BBC. Aye! So did Jimmy Saville.

If you seriously believe that being on BBC Question time and getting your own show on the BBC is a great recommendation then it says a great deal more about you than it says about Loki.

Seriously go to Google and simply type in the word Loki.

You will get a great many hits but they wont be about a prize winning author with their own show on the BBC who also appears on BBC QT.

ScottieDog

@Bob Mack
“At the rugby final at Old Trafford tonight the crowd are chanting the name of Tommy Robinson.”

Didn’t see it, but whether it’s true or not, you can see the gradual coup where the right wing establishment media normalise that man in the same way they normalised Farage.

The day after indyref1 I drove south to a monetary reform conference (yes I am that sad). I met a very wise English gentleman and we were discussing politics. His view on indyref was that it was a missed opportunity for everyone in the British Isles. We got talking about Boris (the MSM normalising another maniac by using just his Christian name). I joked about him being PM one day. The gent gave me a grave look and then remarked that there was a very good chance of Boris moving into no10. (Who’s to say it won’t happen)

He wasn’t surprised at my incredulity but remarked that the scots are better educated. I dismissed that at the time but that conversation has stayed with me.

Robert Peffers

Breaking 42 minutes ago:-

link to youtube.com

Bob Mack

@Gfaetheblock,

He’s bought and paid for to have his Record column ,his tv show,and his book subsidised by JK Rowling. Anything else rattling round your empty head?

All after the Unionists saw the opportunity to buy a mid profile disgruntled indy figure. Lose.

Cactus

Frack Westminster, frack England!

They’ve already dunnnit.

Scotland is ready. 😉

Challengey moi…

Scotland soon.

Hey Stu!

FUCK.

Scot Finlayson

Kezzia is being bailed out by the British Nationalist David Clegg of the British Nationalist Daily Record,

British Nationalist David Clegg will be expecting loyalty to British Nationalism from Kezia or he will dump her like the British Labour Party did,

so Kezia saying she will never support her own nation`s self determination is more to do with her fear of being dumped by British Nationalist David Clegg/Daily Record.

Simon Curran

@Robert Peffers
Try Loki McGarvey. Should give you what you’re looking for

Cactus

Ra good, ra bad et ra fucked up uk ceremonial thing.

Love Scotland, we are SOV…

Breeks knows.

Hyufd, talk.

ben madigan

here’s a wee summary of what’s at stake with brexit and no deal, with particular reference to the DUP and irish hunger-strikers!

link to eurofree3.wordpress.com

Gfaetheblock

Peffers

I think a voice coming out of the yes movement’s online community being on the main national politics debate tv show is quite impressive. Shame you don’t, though he is not on SNP message, so maybe not to your taste.

Try googling Loki Scottish rapper, or Loki poverty safari, or Loki question time, or Loki Orwell prize.

As a wee experiment, I googled ‘stu’ but didn’t get wings. Loki is a non de plume based on a marvel character, shocker that that is what comes up first.

And I’ll save you a message, you think I am speaking pish, don’t you?

Cactus

RP knows…

SO do you People of and frae Scotland.

Just Love… that is all, haun yersel.

Big fuck fur now you bitches.

Fuck the fuckers… they know.

Ross T, yerra tory wank.

Sevenfuckinteen.

Gfaetheblock

Bob Mack

Was Sturgeon bought and sold by the record when she had a column?

yesindyref2

@Gfaetheblock
Loki was orignally a guy, an imp from mythology, god or child of the gods depending on version, who came between the worlds with misteltoe, hence Achilles heel. Can’t be bothered looking it up. I’d never heard of him in Indy Ref 1, only after when he seems to be a person few in the YES movement would trust with a bottle of water let alone as a proponent for Indy, just like his namesake. Think Mordred perhaps in Arthurian terms.

I wasn’t impressed when I saw him on TV, not as far as Indy’s concerned anyway. Good luck to him, he’s “made it”, but he gets blank from me.

Croompenstein

G

Was Sturgeon bought and sold by the record when she had a column?

‘Sturgeon’ is the First Minister of Scotland whereas Loki is a bawbag.. 🙂

yesindyref2

Mmm, a reply to RP went missing, I’ll try the back button see if I can find it!

ronnie anderson

Croompenstein 7.48 I hope nobody contributes to the Auob crowdfunder , they have a lot of questions to answer in regards to the monies collected & the way they conduct themselves online & the abuse of Yessers who ask questions .

Dont be fooled by them Wingers .

yesindyref2

I’ll try it in two parts.
@Robert Peffers
I got into the history in 1970 or 71, same way as a lot did I guess, Lion in the North by Prebble – an Englishman. Then on to his The Highland Clearances, then on to another of his I forget which, not as good. Then on to the Mackie of course, then others. Got side-tracked by Celtic history and Mythology.

It wasn’t until the devo ref and ‘tinternet I started putting the history about, and got into the Treaty and Acts of Union, basically because of the Yanks on UseNet wanting to know what this devolution was all about. legislation.gov.uk was a find, though the URL might have been different and it was SI (statutory instruments) rather than Acts. Sites like siliconglen, electricscotland and undiscoveredscotland, and probably that soc.culture.scottish.

Thing is we were nutters, and it was kept that way before the www and UseNet and then groups and then blogs, but when that came along the Union was doomed, just dragging out its existence. Knowledge is power, and for hundreds of years it had been suppressed, now bit by bit it’s getting out into the open.

Smallaxe

In the tales, Loki is portrayed as a scheming coward who cares only for shallow pleasures and self-preservation. He’s by turns playful, malicious, and helpful, but he’s always irreverent and nihilistic.

link to norse-mythology.org

Robert Peffers

@Simon Curran says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:03 pm:

” … Try Loki McGarvey. Should give you what you’re looking for.”

I wasn’t looking for anything, Simon. Just to show that the guy was far from being a celebrity. Put it this way, if you don’t bother with specific Westminster Propaganda you won’t come across Loki and that says it all really.

yesindyref2

Part 2!
@Robert Peffers
The other thing is that a lot of manuscripts, diaries, papers in Scotland were destroyed. But the equivalent ones in England weren’t. Whereas for centuries they were kept hidden and basically secret because the families realised their significance, when people died more recently they were put up for auction by families that had lost the secrecy and understanding, and historians and researchers finally got their hands on them. Some Scots, but also a lot of honest English people who must have been quite shocked with what they found.

Far from being a beneficial Union for the poor ignorant backwards Scots who couldn’t help ourselves, it was a suppression, a takeover, an empirical move, and not just about the people, but the resources.

Like everyone I want Indy NOW, but the mood for Indy will increase whatever happems. The problem is getting it, as Bob Mack says, the establishment in England and maybe a lot of the people, are moving to the right, and that could come back to real suppression by the time Scotland has woken up. Including shutting down ‘tinterweb, or at least what comes to be regarded as “F*ke news”.

Robert Peffers

@Gfaetheblock says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:15 pm:

” … Loki is a non de plume based on a marvel character,”</i?

Hilariously funny, Gfaetheblock, the character Loki goes all the way back to Old Norse mythology:-

“Loki is a god in Norse mythology. Loki is in some sources the son of FĂĄrbauti and Laufey, and the brother of Helblindi and BĂ˝leistr.”

I think that Old Norse Gods, like Thor for example, rather pre-date Marvel Comics by a wee bit more than a year or two.

BTW: I was well aware of the Marvel Comic connection. “Never try to teach your Grandmother to suck eggs”, is a very old expression, For some reason it just sprang to mind, It also applies to Grandfathers BTW.

Macart

@Smallaxe

Good to see you Smallaxe. Hope you’re keeping better.

Thepnr

See all the da’s and maw’s behind the screen on Wings well it was them that paid for and got 330,000 Wee Blue Books into the hands of people just weeks before the referendum.

It was one of them that established iScot magazine and has been publishing it for the last 4 years. Providing a completely different view of an Independent Scotland than you can get online. Exactly what we need to attract No voters.

It was one of yer da’s that reads and posted on Wings who set up Independence Live after a meeting in the horseshoe bar in Glasgow with other Wingers. No we all have a chance to see things we couldn’t have before if we couldn’t be there.

See all those Saltires with Yes on them at the march in Edinburgh last Saturday. Until 2014 they had never been seen on the streets before. Well that was another Winger who had 10,000 of them made and distributed for free through money raised by the maw’s and da’s that read this site.

See all the shit stirrers, well what have they done other than slag off those that did get off their arse and actually do something? Oh I know they took care of themselves.

Hamish100

Cactus is a big boy noo.

He can write big and sma swear words. Why? No idea.

Like a self centre graffiti artist they think what they have done is important not realising it seems that most folk just pass on to the next post.
No new independence supporters as a result.

Phronesis

Brexit- ‘a humanitarian crisis’ that Scotland did not vote for & a political conundrum, a Gordian knot that Scotland can unravel.

‘It seems barely comprehensible that a democratically elected government would risk the well-being of its people in this way. Yet, the government seems in total denial. Collectively, ministers seem gripped by an unbelievable degree of optimism bias making Voltaire’s Dr Pangloss look like an incurable pessimist… The pessimistic one is that, perhaps by accident, the United Kingdom does crash out. In that case, as our analysis, and seemingly, the government’s own, shows, we can expect a severe humanitarian crisis, with widespread food shortages being one of the first manifestations’

link to blog.oup.com

‘As so often in the Brexit negotiations, this British hope will only be capable of very imperfect realisation. The clearer and more specific the Declaration is, the more it is likely to stress the economic losses implicit in Brexit… There is obviously no good answer to the layers of conundrum that Mrs. May faces in regard to the Political Declaration… The Prime Minister may well end up strangled by this Gordian knot, to the tying of which she has contributed much by her own choices’

link to fedtrust.co.uk

Robert Peffers

“Gfaetheblock says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:20 pm:

” … Was Sturgeon bought and sold by the record when she had a column?”

Good grief, could you get any more pathetic?

Of course Nicola Sturgeon wasn’t bought and sold by the Daily Wrecker. Unlike Loki and co, Nicola Sturgeon did not compromise her political views to suit the rag as Loki obviously has done.

I’m an old man now but I have met very few people in my lifetime who, once learning the truth about Scottish political history, have then changed their views to become British Nationalists again. Loki is one such and it isn’t difficult to figure out why.

Mainly because their current views cannot hold water and are far too easy to prove to be utterly wrong and often just a pack of downright lies.

Tell you what – How about you give us a comprehensive case for the United Kingdom, (which factually isn’t actually a United Kingdom. If it were then there couldn’t be a devolved parliaments and an absence of a parliament of England.

If you cannot make the case then you have failed to prove that the so called United Kingdom is legally a United Kingdom.

While you are at it how about you make the case for Westminster claiming that they govern Britain or that Britain or the United Kingdom are in fact a country.

The title is, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland”, which does not describe a country it describe a United Kingdom and there are only two kingdoms that signed The Treaty of Union.

Let’s hear your defence of your case. I’ve made mine often enough to have got right up your Britnat nose.

Smallaxe

Macart,
I’m getting there Sam, thank you. I hope you and yours are well, my friend.
🙂

Liz g

Ronnie Anderson @ 11.34
Totally agree Ronnie, in fact I would go further…
This AUOB lot are bloody dangerous.
When they said that the police over ruled the bann on using Holyrood Park, using emergency measures I had concerns that this alone would void their Event Insurance?
But to later admit that this was a lie… I would have said that they most definitely did void their insurance!
There’s loads of implications to that… one of which being the liability of the Stall organisers, who had at the time no idea that they were lied to.
That’s no way to run an event.
The fact that there’s (as far as we know) been no incident was more luck than judgement!!!
I’m still not sure that some sort of liability is not still the case…EG I saw a lot of Scottish Socialists posters stuck up all over Edinburgh who is getting the bill for that clean up?
Stuff like that.
While the demand is clearly there for these rallies to take place… we are talking about the safety of tens of thousands of people, they shouldn’t be doing it on a wing and a prayer.
They need to…as you say open it up to questions to get this stuff ironed out before something does happen.

Bob Mack

@Sassenach,

You might want to rethink that my friend. Luton Town fc recently had to request their fans from chanting his name , and only last month when he was watching Airdrie fc the fans were doing exactly the same thing.

He is a hero to those with extremist views and they can be fairly extreme around Wigan. It is becoming a cult thing that others copy.

jfngw

I see that there is a rumour that Davidson & Mundell will resign if the DUP does not get what it wants from Brexit (not phrased that way but it’s what it really means). Do we call this the Blood Orange Red Line to differentiate it from the Blood Red Line of the DUP.

It’s strange to see two Scottish MP’s standing up for the DUP when they have shown so little interest in standing up for Scotland.

Lenny Hartley

Smallaxe , great to see you posting again, hope you are well.

jfngw

The funniest thing I noted on twitter is someone in their bio having ‘Former Sunday Herald News Editor’. To be honest I think I’ve had drinking sessions that lasted longer than that role.

yesindyref2

Honest to god these filters if that’s what they are are doing my head in.

Testing!

Robert Peffers

@yesindyref2 says: 13 October, 2018 at 11:37 pm:

” … I got into the history in 1970 or 71, same way as a lot did I guess”

You were not alone.

” … basically because of the Yanks on UseNet wanting to know what this devolution was all about. legislation.gov.uk was a find, though the URL might have been different and it was SI (statutory instruments) rather than Acts. Sites like siliconglen, electricscotland and undiscoveredscotland, and probably that soc.culture.scottish.

Aye! yesindyref2, I was on soc.culture.Scottish and Scot politics under my old tag as Auld Bob and by the way long before Devolution raised its ugly head.

In fact not so, “auld”, back then as the tag was an old family joke.

There were so many Robert in the family that the younger ones got Robin, Robert or Bob.

Next up the family tree were Auld Robin, Auld Robert or Auld Bob, then came Auld, Auld Robin, Robert of Bob and so on. I got Auld Bob before I was 22.

And here I am on Wings still singing from the same hymn book and not a lot of it changed since I was a schoolboy. The difference is there are a great many more Scots who now, often belatedly, know the truths of Scottish history but as in my school days there are dunces in every class who stopped learning when they left school.

ronnie anderson

Edinburgh Auob march 100.000 + people attending ÂŁ 5725.99 ( from auob page ) no account of monies from their stall sales , the largest gathering of people from any previous marches with the least amount supposedly collected.

As I said previously dont contribute to Auob crowdfunder .

Cactus

With whom has one startled…

Hey Hamish100, still Love ye bro.

Nae damage bud.

Ahm a big boy Yes indeed…

Let’s make babies…

Hamishs’ s’cool

sandy

Was it the Scottish Socialists that buggered up the Last Holyrood election?

They have to understand that they must first & foremost vote for THE Scottish Party, SNP. On independence, well, vote for any party that takes their fancy.

.

Smallaxe

Lenny Hartley,

I’m okay Lenny, thank you. Did you miss the information that I left for you on O/T last night regarding this?
link to tunein.com

It’s still playing up a bit and cutting out now and again but I’m sure DM Hill will get that sorted.

Thanks again, my friend.
🙂

Robert Peffers

@Liz g says: 14 October, 2018 at 12:13 am:

” … Totally agree Ronnie, in fact I would go further…
This AUOB lot are bloody dangerous.”

While there is a problem, Liz g it may not be exactly what you think it is.

There was/is apparently some internal strife within AUOB and it isn’t clear just who is in charge.

I read something about it but couldn’t decide who were the ones in the wrong.

However it seems that a small clique was attempting to withhold details of the finances from the majority and the majority froze them out. So just who is making decisions and public announcements is not clear but apparently there were calls for resignations that were refused and that means two factions trying to be in charge. It rather seems like there are conflicting public announcements from two different sources and some might be deliberately vindictive.

Like most new ventures there will be those seeking to personally benefit or seekers after glory but such things usually are quickly ironed out. It isn’t for me to say who is right or wrong so I won’t venture an opinion.

Quinie frae Angus

O/T

Haven’t posted for months on here. Lack of time and head space more than anything. But seeing some of you at the rally last weekend has fired up my enthusiasm once more.

And I am ragin’ tonight!!

See all this ridiculous stuff going on on Twitter, where certain “key Indy personalities” are virtue-signalling like windmills, each jumping over each other to make a name for themselves off the back of the media’s token Indy-person hireling bandwagon? With such “key pro-Independence spokespeople” taking it upon themselves to “call out” Stuart Campbell and his site’s thousands of readers, followers, crowd-funders and even curious casual onlookers?

Telling long-term Indy-supporting feminists like myself that we are “part of the problem”, a problem which they – the self-righteous – have defined. (I.e. reading Wings, apparently)?

Yes, that’s us these self-righteous faux-offendees are referring to. Us, a good percentage of the Indy grassroots. Wings readers. Wee Blue Book distributers. Video makers. Folk who wear out shoe leather chapping on doors; conversing in the pub and at family gatherings. Those of us who get our information from Wings: facts and figures; thoroughly researched and verifiably-sourced evidence.

Well, it seems we are a “problem”, dear fellow Wingers. (Am I allowed to use the term “fellow”? Or have I transgressed some arsehole’s unilaterally-imposed rule where such a term is now deemed to be unacceptably sexist and intolerable?)

These ambitious young careerists, calling us “zoomers”, “vile abusive cult morons” and the like?

So-called Indy-supporting feminists, decrying other Indy women for having the temerity to seek information from a proven debunker of bullsh*t?

Honestly, how blo*dy dare they? Who do they think they are?

Well here’s the thing. Dismissing, othering, slagging and vilifying perfectly decent, politically sensitive and intelligent Indy-supporting people, just because they continue to read and appreciate the only Indy site which actually forensically dissects and debunks the utter crap, lies and obfuscation we are fed daily by the media, makes these critics look only childish, arrogant and disingenuous. Their motivations look more and more like attention-seeking shit-stirring. Difficult to believe they truly believe in Independence, or whether it’s just a convenient route to a revenue-raising platform.

I am absolutely beelin’ about this ludicrous, hyperbolised, hysterical bawbaggery when it’s the last thing the Yes movement needs, and when these are the very last people who have the goddamn right to belittle anyone else’s choice of how that person chooses to campaign for Indy. .

I have so much more I could vent about this. But I am two small glasses through a bottle of Cairn o’Mohr elderberry wine. And my sister’s dug needs taken for her bedtime walk.

Please, everyone, just read @Thepnr’s post above, at 11.59 pm.

He has absolutely nailed this.

He has nailed the very nail on the very head.

He has summed it up in a nutshell.

Thank you, Thepnr.

Meg merrilees

yesndyref2

Mentioned in dispatches so I felt I have to respond:

Scots Law, as we all know, is protected ‘in perpetuity’ by the 1707 Treaty. This is one reason why the Tories are trying to fudge this ‘New Act of Union’ through the Houses as quickly as possible. The Lord in question actually said on the radio this past week that …”there is a injustice in the Constitutional settlement which they are trying to address”…

He pretends that to mean the lack of an explicit English Parliament but he really means that ‘they’ can’t impose the Henry Vlll powers on Scotland ( take back control) owing to clauses 18 and 19:…..
“..XVlll:… that the Laws which concern public Right, Polity, and Civil Government, may be made the same throughout the whole united Kingdom; but that no Alteration be made in Laws which concern private Right, except for evident Utility of the Subjects within Scotland.

And again Clause 19 which specifies our legal system must continue as before:

XIX. ‘That the Court of Session, or College of Justice, do, after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain, in all time coming, within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges, as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain;

Aren’t these our the key arguments? Court of Session has said that the Continuity Act is legal and Wolfe is arguing that case.
Add to that the ‘Claim of Right’ as recently acknowledged by none other than the House of Commons and it’s obvious why they want a new Act of Union.

WM is trying to argue that Scotland voted to stay in the UK therefore that has created a new status quo where we are now part of the UK not an equal partner in a Union of two kingdoms ( RP has taught us well! ) so we can be made into ‘ Outer – England’

The Lord in question, in his radio interview stated ( cunningly) that they don’t want a written Constitution ( why not? – because then they can always fudge things) they only want a fairer Act of Union for a more federal UK.

Hadn’t heard of the possibility that a Section 30 being denied could hold up Brexit – bring it on. That would possibly help explain why Nicola is prepared to hold fire for as long as she dare.

One thing for sure – the next few weeks are going to be fascinating as they unfurl.
Who dares wins!

yesindyref2

@ronnie anderson
Firstly there weren’t a lot of bucket collectors on the march, second I don’t think stalls were that busy and I don;t think all were AUOB ones, in fact I’m certain of it, and third the publicity didn’t help trust so I doubt they got much. Even Lindsay’s crowdfunder struggled, and the word was put about about that a lot.

The other thing is the March went very well, Keith Brown, Tommy Sheppard and Joanne Cherry saw fit to support it with their presence on stage, and others, and having talked to the police myself, a few along the way as I do, though the stalls weren’t approved by HES the police said they were going to do nothing about it.

So, sorry, I totally disagree with you.

Robert Peffers

@Smallaxe says: 14 October, 2018 at 12:42 am:

” … I’m okay Lenny”,

I’m Glad to hear that Smallaxe”.

The movement towards Indy needs you.

Cactus

Ahm a rockin’ in anna round oor Glasgow Merchant City Hamish100.

Where you at bro.

To learn like.

Ra good, ra bad and ra fucked up!

Take a minute tae yersel, like.

Cactus

Good morning Smallaxe 🙂

Tres bon bud.

We are.

Smallaxe

Thank you, for your kind words Sensei Peffers. I hope you are keeping as well as you possibly can, you have been through a lot of heartaches recently that would have destroyed a lesser person. I wish you peace, love and happiness in the years to come, sir.
****************************************************************

Hi, Cactus, stay safe my friend.
🙂

Good night, Wingers.

ronnie anderson

Yesindyref2 I didn’t say all the stalls were Auob Im well aware there are other stalls Wings Stall/iScot/Wee Ginger Dug weren’t there due to the lateness of Auob releasing the information ( not that we would be welcomed ) as they have done before with Dundee Manny Singh telling lies that stallholders had to fill in forms as instructed by Dundee city council & Manny Singh demanding money for stalls from Wings & iScot ( he didn’t get any money from us ) .

Every one of us Grassrooters who have helped Auob wouldn’t now touch Auob with a barge pole , its a Solidarity front but hey ho disagree with me all you want I have a better insight into Auob movers & shakers & the abuse from their Acolytes towards Yessers who dare ask any questions .

Gary J Kelly has repeatedly said they have video’s of collection buckets being counted but never show them .

Cactus

Ahm in ra catty’s Glasgow…

Crazy things.

It’s good to be anonymous…..

Dat’s me that is.

Rev Stu, aye will meet you one day…

Hamish a hunner… to learn, mate.

Been preachin’ fur years boss.

Ra good, ra bad and ra fucked up, where are you?

Gospel like.

Anna don’t even believe in Jesus.

Howzat!?

yesindyref2

@ronnie anderson
hey ho disagree with me all you want I have a better insight into Auob movers & shakers & the abuse from their Acolytes

“Acolytes”. Oh dear. And a “mines’s is bigger than yours”.

What I saw and was part of was a March with, choose a figure but a few including me reckoned 60,000, that confounded the Unionists and has had them frothing at the mouth, and personally speaking I don’t care if it’s organised by the Man or Woman in the Moon, it SUPPORTS INDEPENDENCE. As do I, and as do you.

And I also saw a peaceful, well stewarded and quietly policed march that marched with a smile on its face, and put smiles on the faces of the tourists with their cameras, and passing people as well, a march where people helped people across the road including one with a mobility scooter at lights for which the police thanked us for stopping, a march which didn’t antagoniser shopkeepers or bar staff I blethered to, and a March which pushes forward Indy.

And getting back to the stalls, a march where half the people or more, didn’t get to the stage area or stalls.

Cactus

Aye can see and my ayes are open…

Fuck the fuckers, Love yerself.

My eyes are bleeding…

Said Dio.

Cactus

Sittin’ doon on that Union Street.

Somebuddy just said to me Jimmy Pelle.

Oui baby… Je suis like!

She’s a Yes girl.

La La Love xx.

Cactus

Sittin’ doon on Oswald Street, Glasgow.

Talkin’ wae ra gurlz.

HOMEBOUND…

Ach well, another lonely night.

Maybe ah’ll get a girl some day…

Aye think aye scare people.

Till then.

Tee hee.

17.

Cactus

Ah keep gettin’ accosted…

Everybuddy wants to wear my hat..

An everybuddy wants to be a cat.

Sing.

Ian McCubbin

Excellent Mr Cairns.
My money is on Foster with a loaded gun. Boris the terrible is just not tough enough.
While they dodge the guns at dawn we leave. Independence now.

Cactus

Haha, ahm in ra casino like now.

Casino is popular tonight like.

Now is the time to gamble.

They let me in…

Good start.

Cactus

Fuckity fuck, ahm absolutely rippin’ the tables.

One stack an lots of blackies please.

Remain while ur ahead.

One is very up! 🙂

Almost 6am.

Cactus

When yer up, yer up, walk away.

ÂŁ20 stake intae ra bar.

ÂŁ700 WIN!

Party at mines Wingers hehe 😉

Cactus

Once ah was winning, they kept asking me for my name.

That’s me a marked man now like, they’re watchin’

The good, the bad and the smiley. 🙂

g

Hey there Cactus 🙂

Hope you did walk away while you are ahead. Good lad.

Cactus, the love of your life is out there.

You will find each other =)

Safe home pet x

Ken500

@ Phronesis. Your posts are always so appreciated and so constructive. Off to look up the meaning of your name d’plume/alias. How’s that for a compliment. Politcally correct of course.

@ Nice to hear from Smallaxe. Really it a co incidence. Just yesterday was was thinking about it Then there was a reassuring post. Such is life.

The Edinburgh March was the biggest yet and really went brilliant. Whoever organised it was some feat of organisation, which deserved some remuneration. There would have been some costs involved of putting up stages etc. There can be expense of insurance, H&S guarantees can come with a cost, Sometimes arranging stewards and transport can be an expense. It can an expense for organisers.

The organisers of that March did very well. They should not have to bear that cost themselves. No one would grudge them any remuneration. Organisations often pay people to organise event etc. PR people for publicity etc. They can make a lot of money professionally. These companies make ÂŁMillions. No one would begrudge organisers covering there expenses. That is pretty mean.

Organisers/people/individuals should not have to bear that cost themselves. That is unfair. Pay for speakers and musicians or their expenses. Travel etc. There is a cost for a March. Even if a political party organisers an event tgere is a cost for it. The hiring of the hall etc. Hotel accomodation for some participant. Individual should not have to bear this cost. It can add up to ÂŁthousands. At all events of every hue. Craft fair or countries fair Oil exhibitions there is a fee for stall to cover the expense of the set up organisation, That is common practice. Just a fact of business or charitable world.

There is a cost to organising events. No one would or should grudge any collection to cover costs or some remuneration. It can take up a lot of time and expertise. Red tape and guarantees. That is just a fact of life. People should stop complainig about it. It can become quite petty taking away from a major event. To make suggestions people are doing it for the money or remuneration not for the cause. That is disrespectful for the time. effort and money people have to put into it. Often voluntary. These suggestions are quite unnecessary and counter productive to the Cause. Some people should get over it. Not taking away from the success of the event which was quite spectacular. Thanks of appreciation should be given. Not condemnation.

Ghillie

Harumph. That little g was meant to be Ghillie.

Was amazing bumping into you and fellow Wingers =)

What a day!!

Cactus

Mornin’ Smallaxe, ahm in autoplay mode dude.

Taxibound HOME.

This time.

Ghillie

Hey there Quinie frae Angus =)

@ 12.55 am Well said rant! Welcome back fellow Winger 🙂

And , Yes thepnr @ 11.59 pm IS spot on.

It is easy to to take all that has been done for granted. All the amazing brand new things that have been set up, created and achieved within the last five years by a few folk taking it upon themselves to have an ‘If not me, then who?’ attitude.

Thankyou thankyou!!! You know who you are 🙂 xxx

Ken500

@ Cactus seriously you might need some help? Over exceeding the limit. Over excess. Watch the healthy limit to good exercise and long life. Give it a rest. People would not like to see any degression Go sober for October in November.

Ghillie

Cactus…because a cat’s the only cat who knows where it’s at 🙂

cearc

Night-night, cactus. Glad you won.

Cactus

Hey Ghillie on the wee g…

Mwah… one is very HOME.

Aye aint looking for Love, just fun ra now.

Scotland comes first.

Everything else is secondary.

Xx.

Cactus

We Love you Ken500, thank you for your concern.

Breakout 2018!

We good.

Robert Peffers

Breaking 30 minutes ago:-

link to youtube.com

Robert Peffers

@Ken500 says: 14 October, 2018 at 6:53 am:

” … @ Phronesis. Your posts are always so appreciated and so constructive. Off to look up the meaning of your name d’plume/alias. How’s that for a compliment. Politcally correct of course.”

Here you go Ken500:-

link to youtube.com

Collie

I see the back biting is still going on regarding the organisers of the Indy March last week.

I asked a couple of weeks ago if this infighting could be done in a less public forum.

But certain individuals on Wings are continuing to use Wings as their preferred place to wash their dirty linen.

People like Tommy Sheridan or Manni Singh don’t use this website, so we are getting a one-sided biased view of how evil they really are. They have not came on here to defend themselves, yet the abuse against them continues. We are the first to condemn any biased reporting on the BritNat media against our Movement, so we should also condemn any one sided biased views against any other individual who have no right of reply on here.

The point I am making is , we would be hypocrites to condemn bias in one form but accept in another form.

So, if certain individuals on here have an argument to take up with the organisers of AUOB, then say it to their faces, and not hide behind the Apron of Rev Stu’s Wings forum.

You are dragging the good name of the Wings website into an argument that has nothing to do with it.

So man up and give the rest of us a break.

Ken500

At one of the Edinburgh Marchm2013? From the Meadows. There was SNP involvement along with others. (Alex Salmond) A YES event. Elaine C Smith was one of the speakers? If memory serves? There was music, Alex gave a speech. It ended up in the Princes Street Gardens, A unionist detracted with a flag and tried to cause a disruption. They were arrested or advised from the site. Tommy Sheridan was there marching with his wife and daughter. To great support. ‘Rock on Tommy’. A hero. He will go down in history of the Independence struggle. He fought the Polls tax and stopped warrant sales in Scotland. An aberrant practice.

The March was organised with the necessary agreements. At the last minute. The week before. Edinburgh CC stalwarts started asking for insurance demands. Ie Insurances demands for H&S which would have cost a great deal of money. ÂŁthousands. Or the March would not go ahead It would have been cancelled. Unless someone came up with the money. The funds might have been found with some kind donation or political contribution.

One of the Organisers, in the know, got an ‘Entertainment licence’ for ÂŁ10 that was enough to satisfy the By Laws. Otherwise the March could have been stopped and cancelled, People were coming from everywhere. They had transport and accomodation booked. It would have been a great inconvience to many people if it had been cancelled. It would of course have put people going to another subsequence March or Event involving expense.

Many people in Edinburgh did not even know a March was going on. Workers in the shops, bars and restaurants and hotels. They knew about the last one. It put the Independence Movement on the map.

It still remains the case that marching is not for everyone. Some people just do not like flag waving or noise etc. They are more private people with not given to such public display of emotions, Or for family, work, profession or religious reason they can’t publically or politically march. They might be in a job of non tolerance or apolitical. The logistics can be difficult or people have to work or care.

People can support in other ways. Give donations. Or time and organisation at a local level. Or just support events. Join the SNP. Which has the Organisation in place.

Or just go out and vote. The most important thing, Going to the Polls. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

Some people do not realise that the reason that the SNP Gov can do such good things for Scotland. The SNP is funded by the members (Other donators) that means the SNP Gov can govern freely. They can do the right thing.for all concerned, Balance up the possibilities. Then make the right decision. They do not have to appease bankers, big business, lobbyists or Trade union leaders. Each with their own agenda.

All the other unionist Psrties are corrupted by illegal donation and dark funding. This leads to the corruption seen at every level of the Westminster Gov political system. Most of them should be in jail for lies, theft, embezzlement and killing and maiming millions of innocent people. At home and abroad. They are a load of freaking chancers. Psycho bastards. Just look at the Westminster line up of dumb folk mucking up the economy.

Robert Louis

Thepnr at 1159pm,

Very well said. I too an mighty sick of certain nobodies making names for themselves, yet regularly slagging off people like REV STU. The indy movement is a broad kirk, and of course not everybody agrees all of the time. But those who go on social media to just endlessly lie about REV STU, are really the lowest of the low.

I don’t agree with everything Stuart Campbell says, but I mostly do. However, that is almost irrelevant, since I can recall when he set this site up. Hiw writing was like a breath of fresh air, it is incisive, well researched, and of a very high standard – a standard which those who spent yesterday screaming abuse at him could never attain.

In particular, I especially get very angry at the fools who call him homophobic and transphobic. In my opinion he is neither. Indeed, in my opinion he is quite correctly questioning the current hateful totalitarian transgender propaganda. I am gay, and he has raised many questions which I and many other like me are starting to ask ourselves. So, just by asking LEGITIMATE questions, he is not transphobic.

Anyway Thepnr, Your comment last night summed up many points I would make myself regarding specifically the independence movement, and Stuart Campbell’s place within it etc.. So I hope you do not mind if I quote it again here;

QUOTE ” See all the da’s and maw’s behind the screen on Wings well it was them that paid for and got 330,000 Wee Blue Books into the hands of people just weeks before the referendum.

It was one of them that established iScot magazine and has been publishing it for the last 4 years. Providing a completely different view of an Independent Scotland than you can get online. Exactly what we need to attract No voters.

It was one of yer da’s that reads and posted on Wings who set up Independence Live after a meeting in the horseshoe bar in Glasgow with other Wingers. No we all have a chance to see things we couldn’t have before if we couldn’t be there.

See all those Saltires with Yes on them at the march in Edinburgh last Saturday. Until 2014 they had never been seen on the streets before. Well that was another Winger who had 10,000 of them made and distributed for free through money raised by the maw’s and da’s that read this site.

See all the shit stirrers, well what have they done other than slag off those that did get off their arse and actually do something? Oh I know they took care of themselves.”

Ken500

Thanks for that Mr Peffers up to the minute as usual.

The ground breaking News is spectacular. What a bomb shell.

It looks like May and the Tories might not last until Christmas. What a great early present thst will be. A bonanza.

Capella

Some interesting overnight posts. Glad to see Quinie frae Angus and Smallaxe back. And Thepnr’s excellent post at 11.59 about Wingers’ contribution to the Independence movement through WBB distribution, Independence Live, YES flags, iScot et etc.

All in response to Ms Haggerty’s sneering remarks on Twitter and Joyce Macmillan’s surprise that anyone follows Stu. That comment sums up the dire state of Scottish journalism and explains why these individuals are favoured by the MSM. As Chomsky pointed out to Andrew Marr, if they didn’t think the way they do they wouldn’t be given a platform to broadcast. There’s no need to censor an establishment lackey.

Also, ronnie has posted about the organisers of AUOB which raises issues about ownership of the YES movement. Plenty needs to be sorted out there, including the ownership of public space.

Just as #SNPCivilWar fizzled out like a damp squib after gallons of mirth were poured over it, let’s ignore the narcissism of the radical common sense brigade and just stay on course. The political temperature is rising as BREXIT deadlines approach. The Unionists would be delighted if we all wasted time and energy fighting each other. They may even be helping that process along with a few agents provocateurs chipping in.

Dorothy Devine

Good morning all!

Smallaxe , so glad to read you! You have been missed.

Quinie frae Angus m a most excellent post wuth which I heartily concur.

Cactus , I know you are abed now , may I say I admire your stamina! Having met , you buy briefly ,I am sure there is a young lady out there perhaps with feathers in her hair, more than ready to chuck you over her shoulder and claim your scalp – in the nicest possible way!

Colin Alexander

Perhaps the biggest failure of devolution, for which the whole political set up in Scotland must bear blame (that’s politicians of every party), is that Scots Law remains little changed from the Scots Law in 1707.

The legal aid system in Scotland is abysmal. Better than England’s perhaps but, that’s like the pot calling the kettle black.

The Scots Law legal system we have offers justice – for those who can afford to pay.

Scots Law remains an antiquated relic of pre-Union Scotland, forcing people to rely on legal experts to decipher antiquated legal language and procedural rules that favours concealment of the truth.

When the Union was agreed, Scots Law did not defend the rights of ordinary Scots, it defended the rights of lawyers and the legal system and the Presbyterian Clergy. Justice for the ruling classes.

Things have changed so much over 300 years but Scots Law failed the common people then and has continued that tradition for over 300 years, despite 20 years of devolution.

Robert Louis

This is an important piece of writing by Kevin McKenna. Agree with EVERY word. EVERY word.

Let us hope the current leadership do not end up emulating the grand old duke of york. They will never recover.

I am rightly concerned. Time is soon coming for the SNP leadership to either put up or shut up, IMHO.

LINK here;

link to archive.is

galamcennalath

“How to Win a Brexit Vote: The Parliament Arithmetic Facing May”

This is the significant part ….

” … the goal is not just to win by one or two votes — but do so with a comfortable majority … That would mean not just a lot of Tory lawmakers voting for it, but the Northern Irish Democratic Unionist Party and a significant chunk of the Labour Party, too.”

And know what? I reckon Labour will, one way or another, give May her victory.

link to bloomberg.com

galamcennalath

Robert Louis says:

This is an important piece of writing by Kevin McKenna.

If I didn’t believe Nicola has a plan, and is indeed on top of things, then I would agree with the article. However, it is based on one interpretation of SNP leadership behaviour, and there is another that cards are being played very close to chests.

When the starting pistol is fired, everyone knows that campaign will be totally asymmetrical. It will largely be state power and influence versus grassroots. Surprise and swiftness of action will help our cause.

Robert Louis

galamcennalath at 0842,

Sad to say, I think you are right. Labour will step in to save the day for Theresa May. One of many reasons I would never contemplate voting Labour again.

ronnie anderson

Robert Louis I see you Have read Manny Singh’s post [See all the shit stirrers, well what have they done other than slag off those that did get off their arse and actually do something? ] Try reading some more of his older post on F/B & his other F/B account under Rancid Tom . Singh/Mackay/Kelly are a liability to the Independence movement with their Lies & Deceit

Socrates MacSporran

Ever since, over 20-years ago now, when he was still Sports Editor of Scotland on Sunday, he done me wrong, I have disliked Kevin McKenna.

His rise to his current eminence among Scottish opinion-formers has continually amazed me – he has no discerbible talent, other than an ability to brown-nose the right people to get on.

His various columns, in different media outlets, have demonstrated the folly of spreading not a lot of talent too-thinly.

But, in his Observer piece of today, he is correct – Nicola needs to get her finger out and set the Independence referendum timetable.

We will never again have as good a chance, against as disorganised and badly-led a Unionist rabble. We cannot let this chance slip.

And while I am on a roll. Even Colin Alexander has got it right today, Scots Law and more-so Scots lawyers are a fifth column we will have to sort-out.

I need to go and lie down.

Ken500

Any detractors who criticise Rev Stu or Wings, are on to a hiding to nothing. They will get called out too. Revealing their total ignorance of one of the greatest asset the Independence movement has ever had. Wings Not just for the great analysis. Second to none. The showing up of the opposition. In a total uneven playing field of power base in the struggle for justice, The exchange of views and information among the commentators.

The Rev Stu is a genius setting up one of the most influencial websites in the frame. With more viewers and commentators of any others. Not only a great source of properly researched information but as a vehicle of information exchange between others. All for a small donation. Sheer genius.

Those that make imbecile, petty, untrue comments about ‘Wings’ deserve all they get. Some of the ones who complain the most about the insults or direct language in exchanges. They are responsible for making the running. Displaying the exact same behaviour but choosing to ignore the part they play in it. Kettle Black. Hypocrites, ‘Sticks and stones can break bones but names’. If they don’t like the heat stay out of the kitchen. Instead of irrationally not stating the obvious.

Wings is so influential thst is why some people do not like it. It calls out their inadequacies, Some people’s pomposity and high opinion of themselves. Shattered. Often folk telling lies. The chief weapon of the unionists procastinators. Trying to pull the wool over the general public. Trying to take over the airwaves and the streets unfairly, because they hold control over the attributes, but things are changing.

The imbalance of organisation of political power (aka Westminster) lined up against fairness in Scotland/UK and the Independence Movement. The sheer intolerance and the intransigence of the Westminster unionist Gov. They try to keep Scotland is a box of their control. It is like being a hostage to fortune in the whims of a group of dangerous incompetents without a clue or plan. Unrational,

Thanks Re Stu for all you do. Having to deal with stuff. Thanks a Billion for all you do standing up for Scotland.

Prof Robertson and others as well. Thanks to Nanna with the ace links. Invaluable.

Robert Peffers

@Colin Alexander says: 14 October, 2018 at 8:35 am:

” … Perhaps the biggest failure of devolution, for which the whole political set up in Scotland must bear blame (that’s politicians of every party), is that Scots Law remains little changed from the Scots Law in 1707.”

You comment very like a slightly more verbose Rock, Colin.

I wonder why that might be.

Robert Peffers

Breaking news-29 minutes ago:-

link to youtube.com

Col

A few years ago I saw Kevin Mcenna in the restaurant I was working with at the time. He was with the former Glasgow Lord provist I think it was. A female, forget her name and a couple of other labour MSP’s. Very cosy.

Ottomanboi

KEVIN McKENNA gets to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Enough dithering, or else……
link to theguardian.com
’nuff said, ‘cept time really is fast running out.

ronnie anderson

Collie ( I dont hide behind anyones apron strings ) Like many Yessers We had taken issues up with Auob only to be subjected to abuse from the Dictatorial & Bullying Manny Singh/Mackay/Kelly . Had that crowdfunder for Auob Not been put up on Wings I would have been quite happy that Auob had never was never mentioned on this page , as it now is I am informing Wingers as to the chancers who think they lead the Grassroots movement , if you have been paying attention to Auob postings on F/B in the last week you will have seen Gary Kelly challenging SIC as to which is the most popular group .

Im not a keyboard warrior . Im like many Winger’s & Yessers A Doer & unlike Manny & Co we dont get expenses for our Doing .

Bob Mack

If Mrs May survives this week, imagine a situation where the SNP could vote to maintain the transition period for the UK in the EU.
Voting against it would be the DUP, and all the Tory rebels.

Negatives—seen as voting to support Tories. Might well delay an indy ref decision.

Positives– The English public would demand our separation because we are forcing them to stay in the EU.
.
We remain in a customs Union protecting jobs and business for at least two years.

It is these decisions the SNP have to make.

What would you do in those circumstances?

Ottomanboi

@Socrates McSporran
Scots Law is another unionist, historic fiction. In practice, in things that really matter, the law of the UK ie English Law prevails. The socalled Supreme Court embodies that principle.
Reform after independence is a necessity.

Clydebuilt

Bob Mack @9.50 I can see Labour MP’s making sure there are sufficient “Rebels” to ensure SNP votes don’t count.

Proud Cybernat

Was the 2012 ‘Edinburgh Agreement’ worth the paper it was written on? And will an EA2 be likewise? Some legal opinion:

link to tinyurl.com

Marcia

Ken500

I get annoyed when people tell me what I should not be reading. The Rev has his opinions on certain subjects and I retain my own. It is called choice.

Iain mhor

There’s a lot of bubbling about people I don’t know. I assumed they were all somehow important people and I was naively uninformed. So I had a look around. Nope. No-one of any relevence, talking heads of the MSM which I already eschew. So that was a bit boring.

Some bubbling about the AUOB marches. Someone appears to be have been ‘organising’ them, so I’ve heard. No idea who. Good luck to them, that’s their affair. A march is the marchers affair and none of their concern. Why I would trouble myself about the ‘organisers’ I have no idea.
Marches needn’t be “officially” organised, nor have permissions or police and local or even national government liason. Anyone can march if they care to. 10’s of thousands may march wherever and whenever they choose to. I believe there is an historical precedent or two for that in global history.
But it was nice to be nice and someone decided to ask I dare say.
Though how anyone supposes so called organisers can be held responsible for marchers or vice-versa is beyond me. Who do you lift for that? Probably the “official organisers”, easier to fit in a van. Nae luck.

Funny thing though, I’ve never heard of any of these people, so if I were asked who organised this march? I’d have to truthfully say ‘err my mate who told me about it who said it was a march for independence’
As far as I know, he has never been anywhere near an email to the Police, Edinburgh Council, Holyrood or anyone else and nor have I. Just marched through Edinburgh without any permission from anyone at all and certainly never asked for any.
Not a member of ‘AUOB’ whoever they are and not covered under their marching insurance and dental plan. Don’t think I’m on a list of their official marchers either. Didn’t notify them and certainly didn’t receive any laminated pass on a lanyard or plasticy bangle thing.
So yeah, a mate organised it and I’m not bubbling to him about it.

Kangaroo

Posted without comment

link to zerohedge.com

Clydebuilt

Robert Louis. Which side do you think Kevin Mckenna is on. His articles for the Independent and the Herald are either anti SNP or just aimed at making life difficult for the party.
In the National he’s invented a great wheeze of writing joke columns, so he can avoid having to say anything positive about the SNP.
All this week the media have cottoned on to last week ends marchers wanting Independence Now. Using this to engineer a problem for The SNP.

If MK says jump, I’ll be keeping both feet on the ground.

Ken500

Nicola and the SNP will chose the right time and date for it. She has won the right to. Not the distractiors. She will set the time and date when it can be won, it might not be among the chaos of the Tories because they could be gone soon. There might be more progress among a different administration. Some people might vote NO precisely because of the impending chaos. Until Brexit matters become clearer and the effects of any settlement. That is only good sense. The SNP are still in control of the Holyrood Gov. Still mitigating for the immediate future. By Christmas it will be clearer.

Christmas /winter is not a great time for political csnvsssing and campaign. People are distracted with other matters. The weather is not favourable. It’s OK for the armchair critics but not for the canvassers and campaigners pounding the streets. Scotland can rejoin the EU any time with negotiation, They would be welcomed. The EU members of the Commission have stated it. Scotland has already started to go it’s own way in any case. To act canny for now.

Does anyone really believe Nicola can stand up and say, without consultation,or consideration because of the Brexit delays. Scotland will have an IndyRef in February. It takes logistic organisation to hold the vote. Setting up the Polling plsces and the staff. The cost and mechanics.

It means it would more likely be Autumn 2019, with consultation and the Polls etc. In the summer people are busy with hols and childcare. Although it is good for canvassing and campaigning. Can’t wait.

Some folk have a bet on the timing.by 2019. Hope it will win. They lost bets and money on the IndyRef big time. The GE returns and result. The bookie called it right and fleeced people. Along with the Pollsters deliberately? Some people will still put a bet on the IndyRef when it is called, ‘to win’. They probably will not take bets on it just now. We will see.

Nicola and Co have won the right to decide the timing. When to call the IndyRef. There is a three year mandate. yet. The Brexit delays have influenced this. The indecision. It is better to call it when it can be won with support increasing. One thing Nicola seems to be concerned sbout. Is to not repeat the disappointment that people felt at the last one. It seemed to affect her badly as well but she got over it. The euphoria and then the letdown. People have recovered and been refreshed now.

Why do people get so hyped up by not waiting a few months or a couple of yesrs in order to succeed. When Scotland has waited nearly 100 years. It is better to win a victory. It would still take a while to change over all the powers, administration and finances. Quite a few years.

Nicola and Co as part of the Gov have earned the right to call it. They have the responsibility. Everyone should come togetter to support that. Not to be influence to call it and lose it by a whisper.and a load of misplaced unionist lies. Now appreciated by many people. The betrayal. It was close the last time. Just lost by a whisker.

Like some McKenna is a closet unionist who does not care about facts. Does not even look them up. No credible research, Sitting on the fence. Just keep spouting nonsense to keep the affluent lifestyle and cabbage on the table. They will be surprised when the tsunami hits their lifestyle and cost of living. Already happening. Not to allow the unionist to push before you jump. The unionists trying to obtain control over the narrative and the upper hand.

Patience is a virtue. Things are going well. The Tories are imploding. Losing support. The Scottish economy is thriving, There is everything to play for. People would love an IndyRef to be called. They would love it to get involved right now. They can be politically active and involved in the movement at present. It might be better to wait a few months. Just to enable a balanced judgement is expedient. In a fast moving events situation. ,

Ian Brotherhood

Great posts worth scrolling back to see, if you missed them last night – Thepnr @11.59 and Quinie frae Angus @12.55

😉

galamcennalath

Bob Mack says:

What would you do in those circumstances?

I think the SNP should stick to the red line of “in the single market” and if that isn’t forthcoming, move to IndyRef2. Vote against every other outcome.

There’s a lot of propaganda slushing around trying to sell customs union as a soft Brexit. It isn’t.

Turkey is in customs union with the EU … it’s a long way short of single market or full membership.

galamcennalath

Kangaroo says:

Posted without comment

The writer is confused. He has been influenced by the Tory plan to replace the backstop with a future trade agreement, and the propaganda to that aim.

He claims of the backstop “despite the fact that it would be explicitly nonbinding”. Wrong.

That’s the problem for May. The backstop is part of the Withdrawal Agreement and will be legally binding. It is intended to be a backstop, unsurprisingly, to kick in if all else fails.

The author seems to think it’s part of the future framework for trade, which is non binding.

However, having said the author doesn’t understand the situation, he might well be right about failure.

Ken500

@ Marcia

What are you on about, No one mention you. Or told you what you should be reading. You are doing exactly what you are critising, You do not have to read it,

It is folks telling people not to read Wings and dissing the readers and supporters, that is being discussed. Any people can read anything. That they want That is just the point. Or people telling others what is available. or permitted Why they support it or not. People have a right to defend. when they are attacked. Or defend the person running the site that they support for good reason. That is freedom of speech.

Or desist from unionist trolls on the site which they are out to destroy. Just as they have destroyed all other sites. Bettevto have one site that supports Independenve. Considering the total collective power of opposition lined up. Totally out of proportion from elsewhere.

Ottomanboi

This from Craig Murray, who is rather more sanguine re Sturgeon’s intentions, merits deep thought.

[MI6 recruited Sergei Skripal as a ("Tractor" - Ed) to Russia, who for money revealed secrets of his nation to MI6, including identities of agents. That is the root of the Salisbury events, and it is not the sort of thing an Independent Scotland will be doing. If an Independent Scotland is just going to behave like the UK in foreign affairs, carrying on neo-con foreign policy by illegitimate methods, I see no point in Scotland being independent. The Skripal affair, whatever really happened, is part of an entire system which most people in the Yes movement wish to get out of. We do not see the UK’s enemies as our enemies.

But the UK security services are our enemies. Scottish nationalism is defined in security service tasking as a threat to the UK and we are targets of the UK security services. The British government is not going to agree to another Independence referendum and we are going to have to win Independence, like the Catalans, in the teeth of every dirty abuse of British state power.]

We are an existential threat to the integrity of the British State, a threat to its global prestige. We should not therefore be offering it and its agents any compromise, any ‘understanding’, any ‘lifelines’. It is our adversary, for it was never in our too long liaison with it a bosom friend.

Ken500

Anybody interested in the timing. The SNP are having a consultation right now about it.

Just e-Mail your suggestion of time and date. (Month) to Keith Brown, Nicola, Alex Salmond or any other MSP, MP (SNP) or write. SNP because they are consulting with others and making the decision. They might just compute the information and that will help come to the decision.

People will have their say. It might make people feel a bit better to be involved. Including the ones who do not support the SNP but support another IndyRef. Some people feel they have been forced to vote for or join political Party because they have no choice. It is the only way. Some politicsl parties are unpopular and held in contempt.

People often do not vote to elect someone in. They vote to elect someone out. Vote strategically to stop a candidate getting in. Not to support the candidate for whom they vote. They don’t like them as well. It is the lesser of two evils. Or in the event of having no one suitable as a candidate. Just do vote to support a system of which they feel they do not belong.

yesindyref2

@Ken500
I could be wrong, but I think Marcia was agreeing with you.

Marcia

Ken500

You are a touchy wee thing. I was agreeing with you. People can have their own opinions. Others can have theirs. I resent people telling others what they can or cannot read. Like herding cats it won’t work. I said in one sentence what you took numerous paragraphs to say.

Ken500

Who the feck in their right mind would listen to Labourite conspirator McKenna with his record and past form. He only seems to support Independence and Indy2 to sell a few copies of his haverings. Few buy it in any case. Published by stringent anti SNP ant independent rags

People have sussed it out. One week one view. The next week the quite opposite to fund the affluent lifestyle. He could not give a monkeys and would vote for a monkey with a red rosette and probably does. While claiming to support Independence. Keeping the foot in both camps. He obviously does not care a damn. Just about himself and his cronies in the Labour Party. The old guard,

Old habits die hard. He is still living in the past. A Glssgow that has been regenerated. Still Labourites trying to hold it back. His auld mates. They probably gave him a backhanded or a few subs or interest in kind to write it. He sees the landscape changing and wants to have a future. Aye rather a Labour future. Oh Jeremy Corbyn. Oh Jeremy Corbyn. To muck up where May left off. Labour muck ups. There’s a word for people like that.

Cubby

Another great performance by Mike Russell SNP minister on Sunday Politics Scotland. This man is on top of his ministerial brief and is taking no nonsense from Brewer. Even had Brewer later on in in the programme saying that Russell was right about a point and he was wrong. Perhaps even the dimmest of Britnats are starting to see the light. The days of the Union are coming to an end. No doubt after Independence Dugdale and Davidson will say they were always for independence.

The simple and best solution to all the Brexit issues is for Scotland, to go out on its own. For England and Wales to go on their own path and for N. Ireland to go their own way. In other words end the union. All the peoples and nations in the UK will get what they voted for with regards to Brexit.

To those silly people who keep saying tell the politicians just to get on with it – it’s the same as telling someone with a gun held to their head – will you just get on with it. Not the best advice.

Ian Murray MP Edinburgh, labours very own Scottish hardcore Britnat makes the stupid statement that a hard border between England and Scotland would be the same as a hard border between N.Ireland and Ireland.

All these Britnats heads are exploding trying to advance their conflicting positions throughout the Union. Britnats are fighting each other all over the UK. Come on the Britnat trolls on Wings get with the programme – get fighting with each other. You know you want to.

Vote for independence and put these Britnats out of their misery. It would be an act of kindness.

Kangaroo

Don’t you just love Brexit

It’s like we have been wondering unsuccessfully how to cut down a large tree that is leaning over our house without it obliterating the house. Then from nowhere along comes a forest fire and burns down the tree with only minor smoke damage to the house. Push over the stump and your done.

Hope it ends up being this simple.

yesindyref2

@Proud Cybernat
I think at that stage Christine Bell was still neutral (undecided) but then came over to a YES later on. Great resource that website.

Macart

@Ian B

Good shout on Thepnr and Quinie.

I’ve been off minding a store for a friend and not really a twatter user, so I’m not up on the ins and outs of this latest nonsense.

How and ever, the people who read this site come here for a very good reason. It’s good at what it does and there’s some exceptional knowledge and people to be found below the line.

All parties and no parties. All walks of life. All points of origin. That what you call a valuable asset. 🙂

jfngw

@Cubby

The difference is NI and Ireland don’t want a hard border. If a hard border between Scotland and England is what is required for independence and access to the EU then I would accept it.

On another topic if Ruth Davidson resign what will be the change of policy within the Conservatives in Scotland. As they only have one policy it would seem to be no change, just the same single policy from the Jackson Carlaw candidate (would that be such a good sell for them).

Robert Peffers

@Ottomanboi says: 14 October, 2018 at 9:38 am:

” … KEVIN McKENNA gets to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Enough dithering, or else……
link to theguardian.com
’nuff said, ‘cept time really is fast running out.”

Decisions! Decisions! Oh! Dear! Oh! Dear! Oh! Dear!

Who should I trust and believe? Who should I listen to?

Should it be this Ottomanboi Gadgie that I suspect of not really being what they claim to be?

Should it be this Kevin Kevin McKEnema enna gadgie I’ve not trusted for years and who has a record of being anti-SNP and anti-SG and looks very much like a turncoat to me.

Or should it be the SNP/SG First Minister I trust implicitly who has always proven to put the people of Scotland’s interests above all else and who leads the Scottish government that has, since gaining office, done wonders for the people of Scotland.

Has elevated the efficiencies of our Scottish services to outperform their equivalent services in every one of the other three countries in this two Kingdom United Kingdom and to outperform them all.

Since gaining power the SNP, with a little help from their independence supporting friends, have also outperformed the Labour and coalition governments that went before them at Holyrood and that includes the Unionist Labour Party that had governed so badly in Scotland since I was a wee boy way back in 1945, that the voters now relegate them to be also rans at all levels of government.

So naw! I’m not going to listen and heed this charlatan, this nonentity, this enemy of the people of Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, both in Holyrood and Westminster, gives me every sign of knowing exactly what they are doing – and then some.

In any case I have this strange feeling, and have had it for a considerable time, that Scottish Independence is more likely to come about by decisions of the International courts than by a referendum that would in any case, at best, only lead to the SG being given a mandate they already have and which the cross-party Holyrood parliament has officially vindicated by a vote of the whole parliament.

We now have that little matter of the people’ of Scotland’s legal sovereignty in the hands of the international courts, (and that by the efforts of the SNP/SG).

If, as I suspect, the international court rules correctly then the whole Westminster Establishments false set-up that has treated the two partner United Kingdom as a four country unit with a non-existent parliament of the country of England calling itself The United Kingdom Government but treating England as the master race with three subservient dominion countries as illegal.

There is precedence in that the United Nation has ruled that the current Tory Government is guilty of human rights violations but has, to date, ignored the United Nations.

See:-

link to newstatesman.com

link to independent.co.uk

link to independent.co.uk

So NO. I will not be listening or reading anything this McKenna cares to say on a known anti-Scottish publication or from a, “British”, owned and funded state broadcaster of anti-Scottish lies, omissions and deflections.

Is that clear enough for you, Ottomanboi?

Liz g

Iain Mhor @ 10.59
Steady yerself man .. here comes another “bubble”..

If you’re right,and its a big if,that people can turn up and march without any organization or permission,then that’s fine and dandy…
I don’t think that’s the Scotland we actually live in though!
Rules and protocols are there for a reason,usually crowd safety reasons.
And as long as the rules are across the board and not applied specifically to the Yes movement,then they should be taken seriously and not dismissed as unnecessary?

Nevertheless ..
AUOB -are-claiming ownership of the organisation of these marches.
I have had a few concerns about how these marches are organised from day one,but mainly because of the type of crowd that attend,resolved to say nothing until after the Edinburgh one.
Also to say what I was thinking constructively.
With a view to improving the proposed marches next year!

Until the Edinburgh one,my advice would have been,to approach one of the Unis and find a student or two studying Event organisation looking for work experience to help advise.

While it’s good to know that if you were for example,electrocuted by an unsafe sound system,that you wouldn’t consider yourself able to hold the organisation accountable… Others may not feel the same,up to and including Police Scotland?

But if AUOB are indeed shutting out any input and are doing things how they see fit…. then yes I would say don’t contribute to them unless and until,they open up their group to other voices.
I would also point out that if any stall operatives are creating a paper trail between their own group and AUOB, such as a receipt for monies donated …. Then the stalls may be taking on some liability for anything that became an issue.
Yet these groups who are setting up stalls have no say in the decision making process!!
And more to the point were lied to by AUOB deliberately lied to…. AUOB admitted this themselves… Also how stupid was that!!
The marches have been a success of that there is no doubt..and I’ve been glad of them.
But AUOB need to get themselves better informed about what they are doing as they seem to be indulging themselves in the success of their flying by the seat of their arse behaviour.
If they become transparent and get things done responsibly and are seen to be doing so, the funding will follow….
But they will have to share the glory…and if thats the problem I’m sure you’ll agree it shouldn’t be?

Cubby

Meg Merrilees@12.57am

These Britnat lords are full of shit. If it really was about justice they would be proposing amending the discriminatory part of the Treaty that covers “papists” not being king etc.

Their proposal will be thrown out by the courts. It is a lot of crap.

No written constitution just like that other nice Kingdom. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Nice company the UK keeps. Just another reason for Scottish independence. A proper written Scottish constitution.

Daisy Walker

Re a possible winter GE. Who would that favour? In years gone by inclement weather favoured the tories, because they had transport (and were less demoralised by poverty).

In the current climate of postal votes (and yes I’m aware there are concerns for their security) it appears that the tories have transferred to this method, whole heartedly.

So I would suggest the tories are unlikely to be too concerned about a winter GE.

Thanks for the links Mr Peffers put up. I didn’t listen to them all, but one sentence jumped out from Portillo, ‘staying in the CU, means staying in the European Court of Justice’.

In my opinion it all hinges on this for the tax haven purposes. If you stay in the ECJ, it means the tax haven legislation kicks in on 1/1/19 and is implemented in stages later in the year and in 2020, and the tax dodgers will be liable.

Bear in mind Portillo used to be one of the tories who supported the EU. Complete U Turn.

If it goes to a GE, the SNP need to make it a vote for indy, not a vote for a mandate for another ref. There simply isn’t time.

Re AUOB. The stage, the sound system, the big TV Screen and the march itself were all wonderful. Fantastic effort by everyone who contributed. Such a shame there seems to be disagreements within and irregularities re other stuff. I wonder where or when the other organisations are going to organise a march (well done Dunmfermline for doing so).

Hey ho, it is what it is and we get on. That march was wonderful because of all the wonderful people who attended and nothing takes from that.

Re the left of the left contingent telling me who to follow, and that I’m ‘part of the problem’.

Well you got that bit right. I am most certainly part of the problem. You don’t speak for me, you don’t get to filter the information I get to form my opinions, and tell me who to support.

Those days are done, in no small way because of the journalistic standards that Wings Over Scotland adheres to as a matter of course. And what a relief it has been.

Not going away, not giving up, not shutting up, and not buying compromised, champagne socialist, pie in the sky, unrealistic and unachievable left wing pish ever again – aye yes for aw that.

Best wishes to all.

Dr Jim

A word about AUOB

I noticed a strong Socialist presence at the march and the shoving of leaflets and newspapers bearing various slogans
The only thing I’d say is we’re not marching for Socialism or any other ism, we’re marching for Independence which offers the right to choose whichever political affiliation anyone might have, there might be Conservatives who like the idea or indeed Liberals, the point is the march is for all who seek Independence for our country it’s not a march to be highjacked by one political movement or another otherwise you alienate voters on all sides who might choose the freedom to choose and they should not be subjected to the ideology of others

One purpose one mission for all is that not what the banner means

Ottomanboi

Two cases of cultural appropriation in the English Times.
Anglo-Argentine the term covers all those of Scottish heritage apparently. Whats wrong with Scoto-Argentine for heavens sake?
History channel prog entitled ‘Britain’s war of thrones, The hundred years war’
Needless to say it’s all about guess who?
Anglo, Britain, British…such very weasle words. Into the skip….

Robert Peffers

@Iain mhor says: 14 October, 2018 at 10:49 am:

” … Marches needn’t be “officially” organised, nor have permissions or police and local or even national government liason.

Hi, Iain mhor! Ever heard of the Edinburgh Trades, “Blue Blanket”?

See:-

link to squaremen.co.uk

You will find it quite hard to get much on the internet about this and much of what you will find is pure myth.

The actual Blue Blanket was a gift to the assorted trades of the City of Edinburgh by King James III of Scotland and is in fact still held in the National Museum in Edinburgh. There is a silk replica too.

Basically the Blue Blanket was given by the King to the assorted trades of Edinburgh after they stormed Edinburgh Castle and freed the King who was imprisoned by the landed Gentry who objected to the King.

The Blue Blanket granted legal freedom for those who carried it to hold marches and meetings in the capital. There is much myths about the original Blue Banner but it is in fact held in the National Museum in Edinburgh.

However, many of the trades of Edinburgh, including the Masonic Lodge, have their own replicas of the Blue Banner and much myths have sprung up about these replica banners with the Masons in particular claiming it as theirs alone.

Good Luck in finding out authentic information on the internet. You’d almost think that someone or some organisation, “didn’t want you to know that”.

You will find this is the case in much of Scottish real history not usually mentioned in the official Westminster Unionist party versions of Scottish history.

For example how many Wingers have knowledge of, “Battle of Bylands in 1322”?

Try looking that up on Google.

Here’s one account:-

link to en.wikipedia.org

Ken500

@ Eh sorry another mix up about that. Misunderstanding. The blooming internet. Getting carried away slightly. Or maybe quite a lot. There is a recognised benefit in precise. People are getting thwart about the chaos and the continuing down turning mess. Their jobs and survival threatened. More people struggling.

Many people are still aware of the struggles of the Thatcher years and the devastation. At least it is different now in Scotland. Holyrood devolved SNP Gov is there to try and protect the people. Thank goodness. Already doing the right thing. Making improvements even with limited powers. How much better would Scotland be to have the powers and be Independent. The Dream of a lifetime for so many and others who have gone before. It is so close that people can just about grasp it . Many people are understandable desperate not to lose it. There are lots of opinions how to successfully achieve it. The support is still going up not down. A few blips here and there. Have a bit of patience.

Sorry for the misunderstanding,

{ : > )

Collie

Re:The Edinburgh March last week.

Can I add that the sheer adrenalin rush you get from just being in the presence of so many like minded Scots is worth all the effort of just turning up.

Every other good feeling gained by attending these Marches and Rallies after that is a bonus.

Lenny Hartley

Dr Jim @ 12:38, well said

ronnie anderson

Dr Jim very much observant is U I would hope a lot more Independenistas would wake up to Auob & Solidarity & others of the left wing persuasion they are not supporters of the Only political party who can gain our Independence .

Liz g

Cubby @ 12.33
The biggest part of the shit these “Lord’s” are throwing round Cubby is that they are not talking about changing the Treaty of Union at all…
They are tinkering with the Acts of Union and trying to give the impression that this is where the problem is..
We need to keep reminding them at every opportunity that is the Treaty that is our issue.
The international Treaty between Scotland and England!
Anything else is a distraction..
Its ONLY the TREATY….its AlWAYS the TREATY and thats the one thing they don’t ever seem to want to talk about..
Can’t think why they are not suggesting a new Treaty agreement between Scotland and England,why they are sticking Wales and N.Ireland into the mix they have no responsibility under that Treaty.
What is it about the 1707 Treaty of Union they don’t want to discuss?
LOL… Like we don’t know!!