The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

The Final Burn

Posted on June 24, 2023 by

The word “packed” is working very hard here.

Because the video Riddoch tweeted tells a rather different story.

The Caird Hall in Dundee seats 1200 people in its main stalls, and another 800 if you include the gallery and balconies.

So if the upstairs sections are almost totally empty and there are a significant number of empty seats downstairs too (including a large area taken up by camera teams), then at most you’ve got about 1000 people in the room, or 50% of capacity.

For a party claiming 75,000 members, supposedly debating the future strategy of its core and primary goal, and which once sold out the 12,000-seater Glasgow Hydro, that’s a godawful showing. But it’s hard to blame anyone for not turning up, because there was nothing new to hear.

Humza Yousaf’s speech amounted to a revival of Nicola Sturgeon’s last-gasp strategy to use the next UK general election as a de-facto independence referendum. He said that the SNP’s manifesto next year would feature, as “Page 1, line 1”, the words:

“Vote SNP for Scotland to become an independent country.”

He also announced that if the SNP won the election, they would treat it as a mandate to begin independence negotiations. But what was much more interesting was what he didn’t say.

(1) There was no mention of any other pro-independence parties’ votes being counted as votes for independence, regardless of what their manifestos said.

(2) There was no clarification as to what he meant by “win”. A majority of votes? A majority of Scottish seats (something which could be achieved with as little as 35% of the vote)? Or just a plurality of seats? What if – and this is a very plausible result on current polling – the SNP got, say, 25, Labour got 23 and the Tories and Lib Dems 9?

(Scotland will only have 57 seats in the next UK election, not 59 as currently.)

Demanding independence on the back of 40% of seats and a third of the vote is, to be charitable, a complete non-starter. Even we couldn’t endorse that.

(3) There was absolutely nothing on how Westminster could be forced to the negotiating table in the event of any of these scenarios coming to pass.

In reality, while dressed up as Sturgeon’s de-facto referendum – an idea which Yousaf had distanced himself from during the leadership campaign – it was actually even less.

All it actually amounted to was “vote for us and we’ll have another mandate”, which by our count will be at least the tenth since 2014 (following UK, Holyrood, council or European election wins in 2015, 2016, two in 2017, two in 2019, and 2021, and two votes of the Scottish Parliament for a new referendum). The SNP would get their seats, make their demands, be told to sod off again, and settle in for another cosy five years of expenses and pension contributions and employing all their pals.

And the real underlying meaning was even grubbier. Recent events have broken the link between supporting independence (which remains at around 50%) and supporting the SNP (which is down to the mid-30s and falling, and only likely to fall further).

By pleading for people to “vote SNP for an independent Scotland”, Yousaf is simply trying a last desperate Hail Mary to restore that link and secure another five years on the lucrative Westminster gravy bus for his MPs and his party, which is completely dependent on UK taxpayer funding for its survival.

We already know that using a Westminster, rather than Holyrood, election as a one-off de-facto indyref is an absolutely terrible idea. The SNP struggle to get airtime in UK elections and are a minor sideshow to the UK-wide political agenda. The First-Past-The-Post electoral system can be absolutely brutal to parties who fall much below the sort of support levels the SNP is now at – as Labour famously discovered in 2015, when 25% of the votes won it just ONE seat.

Under those conditions, a failure to secure anything that looked like a credible majority for independence would be disastrous. They have, in fact, chained independence – which is still buoyant – to the SNP Titanic an hour after it hit the iceberg and demanded that independence supporters sacrifice themselves to somehow stop it from sinking.

It’s a totally cynical cross between blackmail and a hostage situation.

It’s time to head for the lifeboats, folks.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

0 to “The Final Burn”

  1. Ian McCubbin says:

    Sounds as if this is a slow suicide SNP party.
    It is so sad for those of us in other truly independence parties without the seats in either house to defend.
    Hopefully Alba and ISP can break through and win some Westminster seats.
    I fear though it will take till next Holyrood election for that to happen.

  2. SusanAHF says:

    Entitled utter bastards! Vote SNP or no independence

  3. Livionian says:

    This bunch couldnae pack a cheese roll into to a piecebox

  4. duncanio says:

    “It’s time to head for the lifeboats, folks.”

    Yes, leave them to rearrange the deck chairs.

  5. Ted says:

    Clapped out Party attracts 1200 to navel gaze in Dundee whilst potential civil war breaks out in Russia. Quite a weekend in the making.

  6. Matt Quinn says:

    I’ve watched the past 10 minutes; Wishart has just got up. – I’m left wondering what planet he’s on… I’ve been on this earth a little short of 61 years; and never have I been so unconvinced that independence will be achieved within my lifetime.

    If you’d asked me ten years ago… you’d have got a different answer. …And no; I won’t be subscribing to ‘The National’ as has just scrolled across my screen.

  7. Ottomanboi says:

    The reason to quit the status quo are now so explicit and self evident that only total idiots, useful idiots or British agents pretending idiocy could sustain it.
    Anti Putin coup in Russia. Sunak supporting that?

  8. Ottomanboi says:

    Step by step Scotland becomes Ireland#2.
    Only fear, cowardice and BritState agents stand in the way.

  9. Republicofscotland says:

    Yip Yousless and his clique will promise the Earth to stay in power, his motley crew will be vague on the details but forthright on why independence is needed but nothing on the indyfront will be achieved.

    “Demanding independence on the back of 40% of seats and a third of the vote is, to be charitable, a complete non-starter. Even we couldn’t endorse that.”

    As for the above.

    Turn out at the 2001 GE was just 59%, infact according to this from 1992 to 2019 turn out in GE’s never went past 77%.

  10. Stuart MacKay says:

    “Vote SNP for Scotland to become an independent country.”

    There’s the small matter of “when” and “how” being conspicuously absent from that weaselly statement.

  11. Wullie B says:

    I couldnt even bring myself to watch the heckler tweet, let alone what you endured Stuart, the SNP are a busted flush, and until the carrot munching cult voters realise that then we are doomed to an eternity in hell surpassing reading Dante’s Inferno

  12. Matt Quinn says:

    FFS… now there’s some eijit going on about this wife Janice getting emails from ‘Stephen’ and that it’s his wedding anniversary.

    WTAF IS this shite? – Some sort of ‘care in the community’ concert?

  13. Matt Quinn says:

    Ottomanboi says: 24 June, 2023 at 2:39 pm

    Step by step Scotland becomes Ireland#2.
    Only fear, cowardice and BritState agents stand in the way.

    Jeeezuss I hope not! – There’s no way I could afford to live there!

  14. Antoine Bisset says:

    Secession is the only way forward. It might get a little rough. There is no other option. The Westminster Parliament is not going to give up control of Scotland. Holyrood exists only on the sufferance of Westminster.
    Haven’t we had enough of that? Haven’t we had enough of the incompetence and “issue” led blundering of the SNP? Would we want any of them running an independent Scotland? I do not.

  15. Sven says:

    SusanAHF @ 14.13
    I do believe you dropped an ‘F’ from your second sentence, Susan.
    With this load of roasters, surely it should read, “Vote SNP For no independence” !

  16. Sven says:

    SusanAHF @ 14.13
    I do believe that you’ve dropped an ‘F’ from that second sentence, Susan.
    With the present lot at Holyrood, surely it should read, “Vote SNP For no independence” !

  17. Red Wall says:

    Yes needs to get itself sorted

  18. sarah says:

    The “event” is nearly over. Did Ash Regan get to say anything in the “members comments” section?

    Were there any critical members comments?

  19. twathater says:

    Watched the AUOB march (well done breeks if you made it, sorry health reasons couldn’t attend) I commented on utube that these patriots are the ones who will get us indy NOT the FAKE politicians in the FAKE independence party, ffs there was even one nicky apologist who commented that if nicoliar had attended the AUOB march the troops would have been ecstatic, hahaha, what planet do these people inhabit she NEVER attended ANY AUOB March, her and petey need a luxurious motor home to go to the shops or to visit posh marinas, WALK with the plebs who pay her wages NEVER

    Looking at riddochs video are you sure that’s not an audition for a ZOMBIE movie, but Leslie might hiv tae dae a bit of arse crawlin and kissin tae remain in the tent, I wonder if PayPal Paul goat a lift or did the Scottish Nonce Party pay his car repairs

  20. sarah says:

    I’ve just looked at the Rev’s twitter – Ash did speak but apparently said nothing very different from Humza. Er, why not?

  21. ALANM says:

    Some people seem to think that the damage done to the independence movement by Sturgeon & Co. can easily and quickly be reversed with a new policy here and a new initiative there. Unfortunately they’re all wrong. It’ll take decades to get back to where we were in 2014. The truth is that our self-serving and incompetent MP’s and MSP’s have provided all the evidence needed by our political opponents to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the people of Scotland are uniquely incapable of running their own affairs.

  22. Liz says:

    The fact that woman who was heckling Humza got booed by the faithful, says it all.

    She seemed very upset but the cult would rather listen to worthless bs than reality.

    Time to die.

  23. stonefree says:

    If there was honour , then a Ronan/Samurai option would be available

    Giugliano what can anyone say? ,He is the type that are to fill the MP,MSP seats .Right on wokists The place is full of MacPherson, Gray Hepburn like-a-likes. Jobby-Talkers working hard,networking,possibly groping about”for the party”maybe padding the expences” (it’s public money after all)
    They want to stand up look around, and also look in the mirror, Next bit is difficult Think !!
    You are the ones who destroyed it all, For everyone, our children,and their children ,
    The slight Karma in this …….Any opportunity that sitting in your desired position
    Is not going to happen

  24. Ottomanboi says:

    The only route to independence was through “lawful and democratic process”.
    Hamza Yousaf.
    The words of the weasel, of the procrastinator, the delusional?
    Whose law? Whose democracy?
    That of the British state it would seem.

  25. Ottomanboi says:

    Independence will survive the perfidy of politics.
    Politics, as currently practised, will not.
    Let millions of spiny thistles flower.

  26. Geri says:

    I keep saying it.
    Abandon the SNP. Stop giving them our airtime as it only gives them oxygen.
    They’re a lost cause & not for turning.
    We didn’t find this out today in Dundee.
    We found it out during 8 wasted yrs on Sturgeon when indy was ripe for the taking & more recently during the leadership challenge when everyone in the SNP shat themselves & started to row back on indy almost immediately after Ash stepped forward with a plan.

    That’s when it was the final nail for me.

    & When this prick opens his mouth to praise fking John Smith, the ultra Unionist, & wishing to meet Gordon Brown like some fking fandan fool as well as make an arse of himself wishing to meet the Labour leader in Wales for discussion on Devo like we all really want fking Better Together instead for all those mandates they were gifted!! Utter clown!! He is a star struck no mark who’ll hang onto power just as Sturgeon did.

    They can GTF. Take all the useless shite who doesn’t walk NOW & get them tae fk out of our way.

    If MPs don’t start walking now & declare either Alba or stand Independent then they can GTF too! If we wanted Better Together pish we’d have voted Yoon. SNP have proven just as useless.

    *And breathe* lol!

    Fumming these arseholes think we’re all stupid. They’ve been a complete waste of our time & vote.
    If anyone walks away from this pish with ‘Optimism’ I’ll fking shoot myself LOL.

  27. Ottomanboi says:

    A certain influencial figure said «The Law was made for man, not man for the law».
    When the law is invoked, it is wise to ponder the intention of that «law».
    The prophet Moses generally has little to do with it.
    Moses knew little of Scottish nationalism.

  28. Willie says:

    I looked at those Caird Hall pictures and all I saw was the pictures of the death throws of a once great party.

    Death is written all over the SNP and frankly the sooner it is gone the better.

  29. Jeremy Wickins says:

    The annual concert of John Williams’ music fills more seats. TBH, I’ve been to a concert by the Czech Symphony Orchestra that was better attended!

  30. Stoker says:

    Just looking at those pictures of inside the Caird Hall reproduced here in Stuart’s article. Do you know what i’m seeing, folks? If i didn’t know any better i’d say i was looking at a LibDem conference when they were in their heyday.

    Most of them appear to be on the wrong side of 50 so why are these clowns not in any hurry to force the issue of taking back our right of self-determination?

    One thing is for sure, we’ve learned that when the chips are down we can count on one hand the amount of folk willing to step forward and take the lead. Joanna Cherry, Ash Regan and any other current SNP member have all shown their priorities to be position over prospects, Scotland’s prospects.

    It truly is time to man the lifeboats, folks, and head for the safe haven of Alba. So, if you’re still a member of the SNP, now is the time to jump into one of those boats and head for The Alba Party.

    By the way, take Hoozat Useless’ family members out of those pictures and you’ve got a significantly lower final count. LOL!

  31. paulk says:

    Nice to see the less-than-enthusiastic applause for PayPal Paul, though. Half expected him to announce a new Crowdfunder for himself.

  32. Brotyboy says:

    When I was asked to sing there in 1973 at the Dundee Schools Music Festival presentation as the highest scoring vocal soloist the floor was about 70% full. Okay, it was largely everyone’s friends and family, but I bet more folk went home happy that night.

  33. George Ferguson says:

    I am not heading to the lifeboats. I will be with the band playing “Nearer my God to thee”. Let the SNP go down without life jackets. On a positive note a mini school reunion next week in Edinburgh. And the first item on the agenda?. A visit to see the Declaration of Arbroath. Plenty of people support Independence.

  34. Ebenezer Scroggie says:

    Not a word from Wee Nippie.

    Neither in the Caird, nor in Stirling.

  35. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I didn’t watch the whole Dundee gig but I did catch quite a lot, especially of the ‘open’ sessions (although I’m sure they were vetted up to a point) and I’m almost feart to say this but by the sounds of it the majority of speakers were not Scottish.

    And none was what I would describe as ‘working-class’.

    In short, I didn’t see anyone there who represented ‘me’ – a lot of folk will view it the same way.

    But the script was clear enough – get out and convince folk that voting SNP is the way to go.

    They don’t seem to want to understand that there’s a very obvious contradiction there. The only way they will be made to understand it is when folk like me tell them to go and get fucked when they chap my door.

    And that isn’t fair, on them, or on me.

    The ordinary, decent members still in the SNP are being sent out as scapegoats. They may be gullible, some of them may even be a bit thick, but it won’t take long before they realise they’re being used.

    One thing’s for sure – no-one should expect to see First Activist HY knocking on any doors. Or Tommy Sheppard. Or Kirsten. Or Wishart. They have metropolitan business to attend to dontcha know…


  36. Breeks says:

    Yeayyy… just back from Stirling.

    Estimated 6000 over the PA… yeah, probably agree with that. Good turnout of YES bikers too. I think Bannockburn is the longest march, so it’s a big ask for the elderly and frail.

    Credit where it’s due to the Met Office, got it spot on.

    Might have been under a bit suspicion as an agent provocateur… I’m in SALVO, but not affiliated to a branch, so I think I failed screening with my SALVO hoody on. “Which branch are you in?” … Err, em,…..Don’t worry folks, it’s all legit. I started a job in Fife, but can’t get accommodation for the life of me. So I’m commuting from Dumfries and Galloway. So which SALVO branch should I join? Answer is neither, because I’m shattered and good for nothing when I get home, and I’ve no base in Fife.

    I can’t really do anything until I get a place to stay. Fkg brutal. So sorry SALVO…I’m in, but not in yet, if that makes sense.

    Met (well I suppose accosted might be a better description), a couple of heroes on the march, Craig Murray and Sara Salyers….It’s hard to rock up and say hello to Indy celebrities, because you can scare the #*% out people dead easy…. Is this a fan or a nutter? Lol But hello again Craig and Sara, yes, ‘twas I, and my big doggely.

    The wee doggely is still kicking, but he’s old and it’s not fair on him.

    Eva Comrie was very good speaker.

    Can’t lie, I was kinda spittin’ feathers at the earlier speeches. Yes we need unity, but it isn’t fkg ALBA causing the aggro and division. It’s the SNP that’s bang out of order, and if they don’t commit to the Scotland United, strategy, then they won’t be getting a free backstage pass from me any time soon. It’s not ALBA needing to put their house in order.

    How “unifying” was it to organise a Party convention on AUOB’s Bannockburn rally?

    Anyway. It’s done. Where and when’s the next one?

    I’d ask about Dundee, but frankly, couldn’t care less what happened. I’m betting nothing at all happened.

  37. Johnlm says:

    Don’t despair.
    In ‘the West’ generally, establishment parties and media have lost all credibility and folks are looking for a new direction.
    The economy/ currency system is in collapse and if someone(ALBA???) can get an coherent alternate plan prepared, the field is open.
    Get thinking.

  38. Iain mhor says:

    Re: the ‘Broken link’
    That is pretty much what I was finding diving into surveys & polls. People are departing the SNP but remaining supporters of independence.

    The electorate appear to be quicker on the uptake than the SNP, they know they are in for years of Devo, they do not believe the SNP can deliver Independence in the near future.

    They know that under Devo, all parties must deliver Devo Max instead; surveys say that’s what they want, more power to Holyrood, and Scotland governed well from Holyrood (not a return to total Unionist Westminster rule) and it doesn’t need to be the SNP who deliver that.

    The electorate’s understanding of the SNP’s ‘Gradualism’ is just that – ‘mair powr tae wur elbuck’ – not ‘gradually people will randomly want independence, so vote for our shite in the meantime’ – the electorate have a plan, even if the SNP don’t.

    How does that square with still supporting Independence? Well, probably just waiting on another party to fill the vacuum left by the SNP’s demise, and to give the SNP a taste of the wilderness they’ve consigned them to, and a good kick up the arse into the bargain.

    I also think the other Parties are in for a rude awakening if they don’t deliver, and think they can sit around grinning after taking SNP scalps but doing heehaw with it.

    Scottish political parties will be told by the electorate, not the other way around.
    The SNP are being told “You can’t, or won’t deliver Independence, and we’ve lives to be getting on with, bugger off wi yer Jam Tomorrow shite – the others are being told ‘Deliver Devo Max then, or you’ll get a hiding as well’

    The electorate now appear to be in the “utterly scunnert wi the hale lot o’ them” phase, and reaching for the pitchforks.
    If anyone can make better sense of the arcane polls, and surveys than that – I’m all ears.

  39. Alf Baird says:

    Ottomanboi @ 4:33 pm

    “The only route to independence was through “lawful and democratic process”.Hamza Yousaf.”

    Aye, thon daeless FM disnae seem tae ken awfu muckle aboot Brutish Imperial history, and that’s despite his ain Indian/Pakistan cultural heritage. Mebbe he nivver lairnt Brutish Imperial History at fee-paying Hutchie?

  40. Stephen O'Brien says:

    Has the coast guard responded yet to that distress signal broadcast from Dundee?

    Just like the roman slave ship, in Ben Hur movie, the rowers are knackered rowing to the beat of the (SNP) drum!

    The ship trapped in a vortex, of it’s own making. Been going round in circles for far too long!

    Going down with the ship, somehow preferable than to continue as a slave to SNP!

    The NEC just don’t get it. People have had enough of their shite! Broaden the scope of their indy enterprise or forget it!

  41. highlander says:

    Liz says:
    24 June, 2023 at 4:08 pm

    The fact that woman who was heckling Humza got booed by the faithful, says it all.

    She seemed very upset but the cult would rather listen to worthless bs than reality.

    Another snp cover-up, nhs tayside and sam eljamel needs to be a public inquiry.

    poor woman.

  42. David Payne says:

    Very packed, maybe all out enjoying the weather in their campervans ?

  43. Andrew scott says:

    Anyone hear how kitKat ms/they black galvanised the sheep??

  44. Shetto Al says:

    Humza asked us, the grassroots members, to choose today between his leadership rally in Dundee or connecting with the wider YES movement in Stirling. We voted with our feet because it was the only vote we were going to get. There was a turnout of 6000 in Stirling and barely more than 1000 in Dundee. I don’t know a single grassroots member who opted to go to Dundee.
    It is time (actually, it is well past time) for Humza and his payroll hangers-on to have sufficient humility to take note and realise that their divisive clique tail does not wag the YES movement dog.

  45. Gordon Keane says:

    Not impressed with the (newish) First Minister, and I’d think precious few others would be either!
    According to what he tells us in the BBC report, the policy is simply to keep asking London for “permission” for a Section 30!
    There is absolutely no difference from this and what has been the failed ideas of the past 8 years.
    This stupid meeting in Dundee was a waste of everyone’s time, tho it did keep others away from the latest Independence Demo in Stirling.
    We wonder if that was the actual purpose of it?
    I can’t think of any other valid reason.

    I mean, if it was billed as a debate on the way forward, where was that debate???
    For clearly, there was nothing to discuss.
    Humza had already decided for them!
    And all this waffle about things must be “Legal” is pure capitulation to London Rule.
    So it is obvious, the present faction that has been in charge of SNP the past number of years, is not interested in Independence, but yet, they still ask us to vote for them!?!
    And as others have said, vote for what?

    If SNP is to make any progress, and Scotland along with it, SNP will be better getting a new leader soon.
    Humaza is just Sturgeon all over again.
    In fact, by the sounds of it, he is worse than Sturgeon as far as any real moves for Independence go.

  46. Alastair Campbell says:

    Is their an inclusive after conference team building social event this evening to connect with the grass routes members eye ball to eyeball and press the flesh, show appreciation for their support.
    Or is it you’ve been telt get me out of here.

  47. @Breeks,

    I only saw one SNP banner (Leith i think),

    when i went in the 70`s with my mum and dad it was all SNP branch banners,

    great place to start for photies ,the old bridge,but it was a fair walk in the sun from there,

    Stirling looks a bit in need of some investement , some fricken gardeners might help,

    speakers were decentish Fairlie the elder,Hanvey,the woman that sang Scots wha hae, and the Salvo speaker came across well,

    the young lass at the end was enthusiastic,

    seen CM ,looked healthy after what Leeona June Dorrian, Lady Dorrian put him through,

    good day.good folk.

  48. Shug says:

    Everyone I talk to mentions that average branch meeting struggle to get a quorum. Branches re closing and merging. The numbers appear to be up again but no activists. There also seems to be a lack of money suggestion people might join but don’t support.

    This makes me wonder who is joining and where their fees come from.

    Are there really 75k members

    There is little or no strategy I can see

    I think the SNP days are almost over

  49. Beauvais says:

    Good turnout at Stirling today. A lot of goodwill and Saltires from people all along the way. Just three or four unionists with a couple of small union jacks in the town centre.

    Neale Hanvey’s speech was first class. Too bad that most people had left by the time he got on stage.

  50. Geri says:

    If there’s one thing I’d change at AUOB it’d be that the speakers are all up first & then the entertainment at the end.

    Just my tuppence worth..

  51. Alin Scot says:

    Shug says:
    24 June, 2023 at 8:38 pm

    “Everyone I talk to mentions that average branch meeting struggle to get a quorum.”

    Same in our branch and also at constituency level.

  52. Alin Scot says:

    Roll on October conference as venue takes 15,000.

  53. Alin Scot says:

    The Phoenix has gone missing!

  54. President Xiden says:

    I cannot believe even this amount of people turned up to listen to this useless public schoolboy chancer.

  55. TomK says:

    Nonsense. Abu McBean is able and willing to lead the charge to indi. Just watch!

  56. What a pity that true Scots, who believe in Independence and are still members of the SNP, didn’t vote for one of their own! Okay, we know that the Murrells managed the “Election of the FM” but surely, if enough members had voted, we would have had a different result!

    We now have a man, who seems to have no knowledge of Scottish History, who had to be prompted to sing Winnie Ewing’s praises – can you imagine how she’d have put him down if they’d ever met?! Useless is a man put into power by the Murrells to run the Party into the ground – and he is succeeding!

    What the Murrells didn’t take into account was the number of people in Scotland who didn’t believe in Nicola Sturgeon! She was able to suddenly take injunctions against the Press to supress stories about her! Yet she seemed to forget that gossip travels fast in Scotland and most aware people picked up on what had gone on at the Balmoral Hotel – and Peter’s exploits in Portugal!

    Now we have an illshaven, unkempt

  57. George Ferguson says:

    @Galloway Lass 11:02pm
    It’s worse than that. Nobody in West Lothian can get a previously granted funded nursery place. The Council are under a class action. What did they do in response? Cancel all places and are now subject to further compensatory litigation. And then again social housing has been allocated to SNP members. I bought my house but I empathise with locals losing out to SNP members. Can the SNP do anything right?.

  58. Northcode says:

    A great day in Stirling and a good turnout for such a long walk.

    It was a joy to be in the company of so many o’ ma ain folk.

  59. Alf Baird says:

    Disgraceful that the national party elites were not marching for independence in Stirling, instead taking their pay and orders from the Brutish state.

  60. Iain mhor says:

    Emdy mind fitba in the 80’s?
    Ah wiz astonished how mony ‘Aberdonians’ were everywhaur – fae Killie tae Kirkcudbright, and a’ airts atween.

    People ur like tae support the winning team, but they’re like snawn aff a dyke when they get a sniff o’ “Loser”. There are gey few ‘Aberdonians strips’ in Killie, or Kircudbright noo eh?
    The Scottish electorate ur nae different.

    Nuthin against the Aberdeen – whit a team that wiz eh?

    If ye prefer video game parlance, the SNP ur jist glitchy ragdolling.
    ‘Mon and get bye the cut-scene, and lets get on wi’ the gemme’

    *aye, it’s whisky o’clock -‘normal’ RE patter will resume mibbe Tuesday.
    Fuck me, a’ thon wiz a fecht tae punctuate in this nick, ah’v lost ma specs an aw – Poundland cheapo readers fur the win!

  61. Antoine Roquentin says:

    The Yes movement hasn’t gone away, you know. Once you’re in, your in for life. No subs, membership-cards or branch-meetings required, and despite what the politicians and the media would have us believe, we’re still, by a long way, the biggest political movement in this country.

  62. twathater says:

    This is a copy of an email I sent to all snp reps for my constituency, Gavin Newlands MP, George Adam MSP,Kenny McLaren cooncillor, Mags Mc Laren cooncillor, needless to say I have NOT received a response from any of them , I received an email from someone in George Adam’s office blaming the cooncil but nothing from Nicoliars pal directly, they seem to be unaware that it is the Scottish government that allocates funding to cooncils, but funny enough they can SPAFF millions on failed ferries, GRA pish, failed recycling plans,and the other numerous FAILED promises
    BUT EFFIGY no doubt it is WM fault

    Dear all addressees
    I have received notification from Renfrewshire Council that due to budgetary constraints they will have to introduce a stealth tax of £40 on the residents of Renfrewshire if they want their garden refuse to be uplifted and taken away, this is an additional charge to the already increased council tax charges , is this a portent of what is going to take place into the future, where the council will increase the yearly council tax and will then introduce by stealth carved off individual services for which services the residents will face additional selective charges

    Apart from imposing this additional financial penalty on constituents already under DIRE financial pressure from egregious increased greed driven charges from energy companies and certain supermarkets this further imposition on the garden refuse collection will only encourage people to be irresponsible and anti social in their dumping of said refuse, if you cannot afford this additional charge you will look for any alternative or avenue to dispose of this unwanted material which will further exacerbate illegal fly tipping and could result in the theft of residents wheely bins that have THE official sticker on them

    The constant moaning and whingeing that WM are responsible for all our ills and that we are constantly underfunded is used as an excuse at every opportunity for obvious failure, unfortunately although financially it is true it is down to the failure and incompetence of the snp to secure our independence that is the real cause of the continued debasement, hardship and denigration of our nation, since 2014 the snp in the form of Nicola Sturgeon has done nothing to further the cause of independence , if she had fulfilled her repeated failed promises for independence there would have been no need to blame WM for anything we would have been in charge and responsible for our own futures , instead Nicola Sturgeon chose to betray our sovereignty by placing our future in the hands of a WM formed organisation

    Independence supporters were vociferously encouraged by various members of the hierarchy to go out and convince undecideds and no voters that independence would be good, fair and prosperous for everyone in Scotland, but those self same members of the hierarchy failed to produce any information or educational material to aid the supporters in their task, in fact those self same members of the hierarchy ran in the opposite direction apart from when it was coming up to election time, then the vociferously failed promises of independence referendums were trotted out again alongside the failed promises of a state owned energy company to accompany the failed ferry building lifeline for the islands

    It took decades for voters in Scotland to realise that british labour in Scotland (instead of Scottish Labour) had betrayed the working class and were only interested in feathering their own nest instead of protecting the electorate , unfortunately for the snp I think voters are more savvy nowadays when they know they are being lied to and I think that will show in the ballot box in the near future

    I have never been a member of any political party but I have supported independence since I was young and I am dismayed and disgusted that my and my families votes to elect all the addressees and the snp have been misused and betrayed

  63. Stephen O'Brien says:

    To date, SNP has cried wolf, in the name of independence. YES, they most certainly need our help. The pity is, no matter how much they cry, many people, have no faith in those seeking re-election.

    Alex Salmond has provided the most sublime solution to the above problem.

    Instead of the usual SNP above all else..

    ‘SNP First’, ain’t gonna cut it. ‘Put Scotland First’ is now volleyed back at SNP!

    The independence movement is no longer being dictated to by self promoting SNP jokers. ‘Scotland United’ is the way forward. SNP had best get their act together and join up!

    Alternatively, for SNP to limp onward, as self proclaimed ‘party for independence’, while ignoring the hand of friendship from Scotland United, would be a clear parting of the ways.

    Credibility gone, they’d require to reconfigure their core tenet. Never the party for independence but confirmed as the Self-Preservation Society, we already know them to be.

  64. Robert Louis says:

    So, after all the nonsense from Humza and his ‘trans’ accolytes yesterday, independence is no further forward. Their is STILL NO PLAN.

    It is still the case that what the SNP will do is if they win an election, yet again ask for PERMISSION from England to then hold a referendum.

    Here is the problem, what if yet again England says NO??

    THAT is the issue. That is why a different strategy is needed. The SNP, on bended knee, asking England for independence from England. I cannot think of any country on planet earth which has asked its oppressors for independence.

    If England wanted Scotland to be independent, they would just do it. For some strange reason, the SNP are fixated on asking permission.

    All Scotland needs is a Scottish election (which the SNP CAN call right now), with a majority of votes for independence. If that majority is achieved, Scotland declares itself independent, and English/ ‘uk’ laws no longer apply. The ‘union’ ends right then.

    Their is no other route. None. Everything the SNP set out yesterday was just ill-thought through hogwash. It is like they do not even understand that from the very second a country has a democratic vote for independence, it is independent. It does not go, and seek negotiations to ‘become’ independent. It declares independence, then announces, ‘As an independent nation, Scotland is no longer under the laws control or regulation of Westminster or any of its agencies. We will set out a timetable for talks in Edinburgh to which England and its partners will be invited, to secure any necessary arrangements for the return of Scotland’s share of UK assets and wealth. We will also be demanding payment for all of the oil and gas and other resources which England and its partners have stolen from Scotland.’ ‘Should England’s Prime Minister or his government in London, England not respond or participate, we shall take any and ALL steps necessary to secure Scotland, its resources and its people’.

    THAT, is how you do it. You go in hard. You do not win a vote for independence, then turn around and ask London permission to do it.

    Which part of this do the SNP MPs and MSPs not freaking well understand. Westminster does not respond to polite requests. Apparently only the SNP have not realised that yet.

    More and more, the SNP look just like Monty Python’s ‘people’s front of judea’.

  65. Willie says:

    A Glasgow city Councillor told me very recently that, Alex Salmond was scum, that Alba was full of troublemakers who the SNP were glad to have got rid off, that he didn’t give a damn about the GRR being presented as publicly unpopular, that he was proud to be woke because woke was for equality.

    And to thecollapsing polls he was crystal clear that this was a temporary blip where the votes would come back to the SNP.

    Methinks this long term Councilor might be in for a bot of a shock in the not too distant future.

    A SNP Free country beckons and not a moment too soon

  66. Breeks says:

    I hope the Scotland United strategy has a contingency plan in place, because I see no sign whatsoever that the SNP can be reformed, trusted, and brought into line in the time available.

    These SNP troughers will simply rob the Independence Movement of much needed resource, public goodwill, and initiative the same way Westminster perennially bleeds Scotland dry of the same. We Independentists are compromised before we even begin, and that alone will cause increasingly bitter rancour and ever more acrimonious antipathy.

    It’s my considered opinion that SALVO must take the Constitutional initiative, and the more political “Scotland United” phenomenon must then coalesce around a ratification plebiscite and independent Scottish Elections, rather than a UK brokered Westminster or Holyrood Election.

    We are marching towards a UK Election full of expectation, but the SNP’s self interest is going to squander yet another opportunity we have for change. If we can all see it, why in God’s name are we going along with it? We KNOW how this ends!

    Get the Union into an irrecoverable tailspin, NOW! And do it on Constitutional grounds, so the political debate isn’t focussed upon the “IF” we choose Independence, but on the “how” and “when” of it.

    The Treaty of Union can be brought into existential crisis the moment UK sovereignty becomes a disputed sovereignty.

    I overheard conversations yesterday on the march getting this wrong. NOBODY at the UN is going to look at our dispute and adjudicate that Scotland is suddenly an Independent Nation. Independence might be secured and made safe that way, but it will NOT be delivered that way. We must BE a sovereign Nation, and act like one, and then seek to have our status so recognised.

    International Recognition is not a right. There isn’t a points system or a threshold we cross to secure it. In the case of Israel, Kosovo, and several other places in the world, there are as many Nations who don’t recognise their status as whose who do.

    Recognition is entirely the prerogative of the sovereign Nation who agrees to give it. ”THAT” is the benchmark we need to have in our sights and be working towards.

    An electoral mandate? Big help, but not essential.
    Democratic majority? Big help, but not essential.
    Constitutional Probity? Massive help, and fairly essential.
    UK recognition? Not essential, but contingencies surely required.

    If Scotland was to cite a breach of the Treaty of Union, thereby calling it’s legitimacy into question, the UK is in immediate crisis, and the political debate is not about whether Scotland “can” end the Treaty of Union, but whether it should.

    Simply by holding that debate, on Scotland’s terms, means the Treaty of Union is effectively dead already, and surviving (if at all), by the barest of threads.

    By simply being brought to the very edge of that Abyss, I believe the Treaty of Union would be irredeemably changed forever, and even if it somehow survived, it would NEVER be anything like what has gone before. Scotland’s sovereign consent would be required for everything, and that would make UK government unworkable.

    Scotland has to realise the power that it has, and has had all along.

    ALL we require in the first instance is the SALVO / Scotland United style Convention of the Estates, to be codified quickly, adopted by the people, and which resolves to demand Scotland’s constitutional rights and traditions are respected under International law.

    The Treaty of Union is not compatible with that process, and sovereignty will prevail.

    To Hell with Humza, the SNP, Holyrood, Holyrood elections, UK General Elections… All of these are playing by the UK’s rule book. We don’t require anything they can give us. Stop playing by their rules, and start requiring them to play the game by our rules.

    The UK system will NOT cater for Scotland using UK protocols to dissolve the UK. Are we so blinkered we cannot see that?

    By engaging with this debate and narrative that granting Scotland democracy is somehow Westminster’s prerogative, we have ALREADY taken our first gulp of UK Koolaid. We have ALREADY been steered up the wrang dreel. We have conceded that which we should never concede.

    The first step towards Independence is a matter of correct perspective, and so many of us are still not seeing the rabbit.

  67. John Main says:

    @Robert Louis 7:11

    You have certainly got Day 1 of your plan for Indy covered.

    Shame you scrimped on the planning for Day 2+

    On Day 2, I expect UK military to have taken control of all key infrastructure in Scotland, with armed soldiers on all offshore facilities, onshore centres, airports, railway stations, etc. These will have been invited in by the owners and operators of these facilities, which are multinational companies and overseas governments. I believe the WM government will have the backing of the UN, the EU, and of course the USA.

    Day 3 will see the arrest and incarceration of the Scottish politicians responsible for this hare brained scheme.

    That’s one of the problems when an entity (the WM government) is constantly being portrayed as a ruthless, grasping, merciless, exploitative, colonialist monster. It defies belief when you turn around and in the next breath claim that Scotland can strangle England’s ability to survive overnight and England will just sit there and let it happen.

  68. Ottomanboi says:

    ALFBAIRD 6:47
    So many in UK politics of non european heritage have a macular disorder regarding their perception of British colonialism which ought not to trouble them but it does, making them even worse than the natives.
    English Conservatives have many in their ranks.
    Scottish independence….send for the Gurkhas.

  69. John Main says:

    @Breeks says

    “Democratic majority? Big help but not essential”

    Struggling to find the words …

    “Ah come on now Ted”

    … yup, perfect fit.

  70. akenaton says:

    J M.
    How dare you speak sense on this issue sir? You’ll startle the horses and frighten the children….of all ages.

  71. Beauvais says:

    Yousaf has announced that he will address the Believe in Scotland march and rally in Edinburgh in September. He must have been assured of a good reception. He knows he’ll never get one at an AUOB event.

  72. Stephen O'Brien says:

    The number one problem for achieving independence, is the sought negotiating period.

    A cake and eat it scenario, whereby, our parliament seems to think, it can leave preparation until negotiations begin!

    I guess, this is due to the intended introduction our own currency, which by all accounts, take years of planning.

    The timing of declaration of independence, to coincide with the new currency, the proverbial icing on the cake, which is preventing any celebration of independence!

  73. McDuff says:

    The only thing this useless ("Tractor" - Ed)ous crowd will understand is unemployment so let’s kick them out at the next election and start again.
    Me and mine will be voting Alba.

  74. Dan says:

    Having spent over a decade picking up huge amounts of litter and occasionally waving a saltire, I can state that these efforts have done little to increase indy support in my locale. In fact it’s most likely all I’ve done is make my rural location cleaner and more bonnie, thus attracting reams more incomers from down south to buy up the local properties which displaces the young indigenous Scots.

    Hmm, mulls over taking up fly-tipping…

  75. Merganser says:

    How did Izzie get on at the conference? I wonder if she got to speak.

    Come on Izzie, tell us what you think of the plan.

  76. Anthem says:

    John Main. Are you suggesting that Westminster would support an invasion force into Scotland? I’m not sure the UN or the EU would support that considering the war play going on in the Ukraine. And considering the amount of Scots serving in the UK armed forces I’d be surprised if they would turn on their own people.

  77. Breeks says:

    Beauvais says:
    25 June, 2023 at 9:53 am
    Yousaf has announced that he will address the Believe in Scotland march and rally in Edinburgh in September. He must have been assured of a good reception. He knows he’ll never get one at an AUOB event.

    What a slap in the face for AUOB too.

    I see it ends at the Scottish “Parliament” too. Be unfortunate if they all got arrested for holding a protest outside Holyrood after the SNP making it a no-go zone for protests.

    It’s not for me anyway. Won’t be there.

  78. Republicofscotland says:

    Jesus, they say age brings wisdom, yet Ruth Wishart put Sturgeon the betrayer in the same bracket as Margo MacDonald and Winnie Ewing when it comes to fighting our cause from independence.

    This is the strapline of her article in the Sturgeon the Judas fanzine aka the National. I’ve had my doubts about this Wishart as well for al long time when it come to supporting independence.

    “Who comes next for the cause after Winnie, Nicola and Margo?”

  79. President Xiden says:

    Vote SNP get Lorna Slater.

  80. PacMan says:


    I like watching movies and like everybody else I love the classics but I have a lot of time for films mostly in the action and horror genres that while aren’t great, I can see beyond it’s flaws and see the story for what the film-makers had intended.

    During the pandemic I had extended my movie moving to genres that I wouldn’t have normally watched like musicals and the 50’s swords and sandal epics and surprisingly enjoyed them.

    I have also cast my net wide and decided to watch films that are well known in the public eye. I had watched one of them the other night called The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert which was made in the Nineties and the characters in the film referred to themselves as draq queens and gay rather than Trans.

    As to the film itself, despite being critically acclaimed, it does have it’s flaws and for me, it’s the directing and the casting of Guy Pearce. Pearce is a great actor but the character he played needed somebody with more comedic flair.

    Going away from the film, one of the scenes did catch my eye. Not to give too much of the story away, 3 draq queens take a job in the outback and travel there on a bus they had bought.

    They meet up with a mechanic as the bus has problems and he decides to tag along. They pass through a town and decide to stay the night. The mechanic warns them that it is a tough mining town where the guys work long shifts down the mine and go out at night drinking to let off steam.

    Guess what? Pearce’s character takes drugs, dresses up in drag and goes about antagonising people. He runs into a group of miners drinking with the mechanic and winds them up with crude talk. One of the miners don’t take kindly to it and starts beating him up and is only saved by one of the other drag queens beating up the miner.

    Watching this film and taking that scene in the context of just a few years ago, I would have sided with the draq queen character and the homophobia of the miner but given what I’ve seen with Trans activism, I have a different perspective.

    Given the narrative that LGTBQ+ people are being oppressed and have to fight to express their identity every day, it would have been hard not to sympathise with Pearce’s character in the film but now considering that identity is at the expense of hard won woman’s’ rights, the characters motivations is seen in a different light especially as he said he likes to provoke (straight) people with his antics.

    I noticed this is doing the rounds in the newspapers where NYC Drag Marchers chant “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for your children”

    I’ll be fair in saying that a lot of these people on that march don’t mean this literally but are only doing it to provoke and press the button of certain sections of society who are conservative. However as they are talking about children, they are totally out of step with the rest of the society they belong to. Most people don’t care about Trans issues but it is things like this that is going to alienate them towards that community.

    As I said, I had different perspective towards these issues a few years ago and would have tried to defend this a bit more but now I don’t care. It really is a case of letting them get on with it because all they are doing is alienating enough people who would be either indifferent or sympathetic to their cause.

  81. stuart mctavish says:

    Same hell jamel – (ex?) FM in serial nipple tweaking scandal* in 3,2,..

    * worth noting that the technique appears to work quite well, for all that!

  82. 100%Yes says:


    Well said.

  83. Republicofscotland says:

    Looks like more dodgy dealings by Murrell.

  84. PacMan says:

    The SNP says Scottish independence ‘off the agenda’ if SNP lose General Election.

    Inflation in the UK is here to stay despite it falling in other G7 countries. Reading about this, there is a number of factors.

    The Bank of England is determined to bring it down to 2% and they are using interest rates to do this. From my understanding, the reasoning behind this is to reduce customer spending. Given the cost of living crisis that we are experiencing, is customer spending that big a factor in driving inflation as opposed to the other ones?

    Regardless of the reasons, interest rates are hurting people as much as the cost of living crisis. The Tories are going into the UK election next year where they said they would half inflation and have other targets like cutting immigration which they aren’t doing.

    It’s hard not to see Labour winning the next UK election and with that momentum, they are going to pick up a lot of seats here in Scotland.

    The SNP are going to lose anyway so this rhetoric about independence off the agenda if they lose is meaningless.

  85. Dave Llewellyn says:

    Instead of us heading for the lifeboats could we not get a deep sea submersible, call it Titan, and putca big sign on the door “Self IDing Big Troughers first ” then throw 8t into the Mariana’s Trench after drilling a couple of aee air holes to let the bastards breathe.

  86. Michael Laing says:

    PacMan @ 11.19am:

    “The SNP are going to lose anyway so this rhetoric about independence off the agenda if they lose is meaningless.”

    That’s their get-out clause so that they don’t have to do anything about independence, and it won’t be their fault when they don’t. They can blame it on us stupid voters.

  87. Shug says:

    What is Westminster passes a law saying Scotland can’t seceded, that would mean there is no lawful route

    Given westminster dosent give a hoot about law in any case you will always be stymied so what then Humza

    Even if you win they will say no, cause they don’t care and with the Muppets in the SNP the only risk to westminster is they pull a muscle laughing at you.

    The SNP needs to grow a pair of balls and if they don’t they deserve to lose their seats.

    My vote is there for the taking but now you need to show you are worthy of it. NO MORE HALF BAKED STORIES

  88. John Main says:

    @PacMan 11:07

    So you are finally growing up!

    Don’t worry, it’s a spectrum. Some lucky teens are already there at 16. Others manage to drag out their childhood into their forties. IMHO, the key rite of passage is the day it finally dawns on you that the world does not owe you a living. If you can get your head around that idea at a young enough age, you have a good chance of making something of yourself. Hope it’s not too late for you!

    Regarding your 11:19 post. Yup, it’s managed decline for the foreseeable, punctuated with infrequent deckchair rearranging, such as when it becomes “Starmer’s turn”, probably late next year.

    We will all know the bottom of the curve has been reached when we see some conviction politicians being elected, on the back of manifesto promises to slay some of the current political sacred cows.

    Trans nonsense, net zero nonsense, illegal migrants human rights nonsense. Gonna be a few years yet.

  89. Beauvais says:

    Republicofscotland @10:51 am

    The only Winnie that Sturgeon reminds us of is a Winnebago.

  90. fruitella the hun says:

    Father Jack, Main st.

    Well well. I agree with your Day 2 scenario for that Day 1 plan. And I agree with your final para. We’ll never get to Day 1, of course, because Day 2’s possibility will be well advertised beforehand and scare folk off.

    Maybes you could give us a bit more strategic thinking from your playbook, that would be innarestin. Being offered the fantasies of an oil train to well-feathered environmental oblivion or a rickshaw to social insanity by Alba, the SGP and the SNP, I’ll be looking at the menu tabled by the the Labour and Tory parties – with miserable expectations. Labour ahead by a nose at the moment (oil policy). And I was brought up to hate the Tories but the younger generations weren’t, and I’ve worked in Labour fiefdoms.

  91. Bob Mack says:

    We are like Triathletes. We basically start and finish at the same place despite all the effort involved.

    After years Yousaf wants us to give him ANOTHER mandate.
    What is wrong with using the one we have them last time?I

    What Yousaf really wants is to keep the SNP in power for more years whilst delivering more of nothing.

    The SNP has become the harbour for every political undesirable and outcast from Labour and others,determined to push personal ideology through legislation contrary to public wishes . There appears to be no will anywhere in Holyrood or anywhere to try and stop it all.Too bad if you don’t like it, yet they claim to serve only the people rather than self. The party is too far gone to rescue. Let it die.

  92. John Main says:

    @fruitella the hun

    If we agree on the implausibility of the “just walk away” approach to Indy, maybes we can also agree on the same implausibility of the “just walk away from fossil fuels” approach to greening the economy.

    My point has always been that replacing millions of cars and other vehicles, and millions of domestic heating systems, can’t be done overnight.

    If we can agree that these changes take time, then the argument becomes over how long it should take and how we should pay for it.

    I run a diesel car and use gas CH. I don’t have the dosh, or the practical options, to install a charging point, buy an electric car, and install a heat pump.

    Even if I was to volunteer to forego private mobility and do without CH, I doubt the political will exists to force everybody else to do likewise. So the gradualist approach, running down fossil fuel use, while also ramping up the availability of the affordable and practical alternatives, seems right to me.

    Running down our own oil and gas resources. Allowing us to ensure all profits and taxes remain with us, so that we have them to spend on the new green investments. Developing these green technologies so that we have exports we can live off once we are Independent.

    As I have pointed out before, selling electricity is the third-world way. The real money to be made is value-added, you use the electricity to make things, e.g. aluminium smelting, hydrogen and ammonia production, artificial fertilisers. Renewable, green jobs, funding the future Scotland we want to see.

    Re environmental oblivion. It’s coming anyway, even if all 5.5 million of us mutually suicide tonight. Please note, I’m not using that as an excuse to do nothing, far from it. I am merely being realistic – I want Scotland, the UK, Europe to be environmentally responsible. But that’s a drop in the ocean compared to the damage being done by the rest of the world.

  93. fruitella the hun says:

    “ My point has always been that replacing millions of cars and other vehicles, and millions of domestic heating systems, can’t be done overnight.”

    And mine has been that we have to choose a pathway to commit to. Leaving untapped oil in the ground is a run-down policy not an overnight one, it is a transition process. Pumping it is a two-fingers-to-the-green-spoilsports policy. Some are using the ludicrous TWAW project to tar all green policies as perverse. Salmond says we need to keep the oil pumping industry going in order to secure the infrastructure – I think he meant skills and plant – needed to build the renewables. I can’t make any sense of that unless “renewables” means something other than infrastructure that needs building now with the resource he would fully commit to the oil industry. It’s magical thinking.

    The money to build a Scottish utopia will not come as a result of pumping the undrilled oil but the bill for burning/selling it will. And as you say, why would we expect the English to let us wander off with it anyway?

    Your “drop in the ocean” remark reminds me of “too wee, too stupid”…. Again it needs pointing out that for most global inhabitants, they can say their personal CO2 account is minuscule with many times more justification than citizens in a West built by imperial savagery (with maybe a judicious balm of humanity or bogus christianity to ease things along).

    Things have moved on, it’s not so much “jobs vs. environment” anymore, it’s “profits vs. survival”

  94. Dan says:

    For all our renewable energy generation, our railway tracks aren’t even electrified north of Dunblane. So fossil fuel powered train propulsion in Scotland will be required for some considerable time yet.
    The rest of public transport is along way off performing in a way that is convincing folk that they could do away with their cars.
    This all needs to be addressed before any transition away from using fossil fuels can happen.

    Try living in a rural location with zero bus services to get folk to the doctor’s surgery, or hospital appointments in a viable way. I have to fire up my diesel car to take folk to their appointments.
    And me racking up a few miles in an existing couple of decade old internal combustion engined car is way less of a carbon footprint than me having to go out to earn enough to buy or lease some massively expensive and far from “green” leccy car that will need to be produced in its entirety from new resources and be lucky to make it to half the age and cover nowhere near the mileage of my existing vehicle.

  95. John Main says:

    @fruitella the hun

    My “drop in the ocean” remark reminds me that Scotland is 5.5 million people in a world of 8 billion. So a bit less than one tenth of a per cent.

    Your post was a good one initially, but lost it towards the end. I don’t think I am the only one who refuses to be guilt tripped into a sense of responsibility for stuff that happened before I was born.

    Are you quite certain that for “most global inhabitants”, their CO2 accounts are miniscule? Countless millions of people all over the world run vehicles and enjoy 24/7 power and light. Global oil consumption continues to increase yearly, and it is predicted that the rate of increase is accelerating. Asian countries are driving this demand. 18% of the world population own a car. So, “many” global inhabitants perhaps, but “most” is unlikely.

    One thing I predict is that if we in Scotland and/or the west generally ever do get to Net Zero, we will continue to watch the global environment deteriorate while countries like the BRICS go all out for ever more personal citizen affluence, built on fossil fuel exploitation.

  96. fruitella the hun says:


    I can’t imagine any local politicians demanding unserviced rural areas are deprived of their legacy transport, can you? Most people aren’t fanatics, even in pro-change political parties.

    I remember the Small Farmers Association or whatever it was called was chaired by the Duke of Buccleuch. The big boys like to hide behind “fragile rural communities”.

    Their “wealth management strategists” like to go personal on system issues and systems on personal issues in search of a moral foothold. Seen it a lot these last 50 years.

    When well meaning policy wonks come up with a way of reducing car journeys, like 15 minute cities, they get a kicking from the same folk, claiming their is no viable alternative to cars for every trip to the local chippy that doesn’t take away all the freedom their dads died in the war for.

  97. John Main says:

    I couldn’t imagine any local politicians insisting a big, hairy bloke is a woman.

    I couldn’t imagine any local politicians taking my taxes and using them to pay other people to sit at home doing nothing for 2 years, because there’s some flu about.

    Failure of imagination is a shoogly peg to hang your certainties on.

    Most people aren’t fanatics, but some people are. These Just Stop Oil fanatics would happily trap rural dwellers in their services-free isolation.

    Failure of imagination leaves a gap the fanatics can drive a coach & horses through.

  98. fruitella the hun says:

    just checking if I fumbled my reply to JM before reposting it. Mentioned a deity other than Thor…

  99. fruitella the hun says:

    “Are you quite certain that for “most global inhabitants”, their CO2 accounts are miniscule?”

    You say ours effectively amount to nothing, then so do theirs but even more so – less heating, less personal transport, less meat. Last time I checked we (UK) were .8% of the population creating 2.5% of the emissions. The figures I was looking at were not clear on whether the emissions associated with imports and exports were accounted for, I’m not a paid researcher or spin doctor and you are clearly able to “do your own research” at least as far as throwing shade on what others produce.

    Emissions are not my main concern anyway, despite their obvious role in driving migration and the problems that brings. It is what we do with the energy to disrupt planetary biosystems that really bothers me. The measures to address that (and it is not an option to ignore it) will sweep up the CO2 issues anyway, probably.

    This is a spat between an optimist and a pessimist. I think we can pull things into shape. If I didn’t I’d be jetting round the planet consuming nature and culture like a mad thing and praying the children and grandchildren can get Jesus out of retirement to come back and sort it all out for them. Show Him the money!

  100. Dan says:

    fruitella the hun says: at 4:06 pm

    I can’t imagine any local politicians demanding unserviced rural areas are deprived of their legacy transport, can you? Most people aren’t fanatics, even in pro-change political parties.

    In the past I’d of tended to agree with that, as no politician would generally advocate for a personal vote loosing position or policy. (But diminished rural services have still effectively happened anyway through stealthy means.)
    But now?
    Things are so fucked up and the electorate so dumb the politicians can now actually advocate for stuff that negatively effects folks’ lives and they will still get the votes.
    EG. Women’s right diminished, all sorts of greenwashing shite rolled out, Indy Carrotmageddon, and yet still they manage to retain power.

    The huge elephant in the room with regard to Scotland and our environmental matters is that energy policy (along with all other significant powers) are reserved to London Rule. Ergo pretty much any significant endeavor undertaken to deviate from the UK position is or can be hamstrung.
    Obviously DRS failings is an example even though it was very ill thought out and there are surely other far more pressing “green” issues that could have been focused on instead. The amount of taxpayers’ money spaffed away on that, with possibly even more to come due to considerable compensation claims, could have gone a long way to implementing more beneficial things.

    The Scottish Government Administration of Devolved powers could have had a legitimate clash with Westminster and made political gain last December when around 800 folk were treated for hypothermia in energy rich Scotland thus burdening our already stretched health services, but no, they instead were focused on the GRR pish.

  101. fruitella the hun says:


    I want the Green Party leadership cleaned out just like most on here want with the SNP leadership. I don’t want real environmental policies trashed though, just like most on here don’t want Indy trashed.

    The DRS should have been designed to succeed.

    HPMAs though, who can argue with restoring 10% of the coastal waters to a more natural state? Yet a good number on here have. There have been many consultations with fishermen over the last 40 years. Did something go wrong with the last one to get folk so upset? I suspect it is shit-stirring as part of trashing all environmental constraints on economic activity. Not good to see.

    The fatalities on the A9 dropped very significantly when they brought in 60 mph average speed cameras. Made it hell on a moto though with cars climbing up your arse instead of the five miles clear road till the next Tesco truck-headed and easily disposed of car snake. Dualling is a £3bn contract. Less than half a billion spent so far. A spike in the fatalities is being used to justify proceeding with the other 2.5bn. Massive lack of imagination to judge that a spending priority.

  102. fruitella the hun says:

    Sorry to hear about your imagination John. Maybe concentrate on easily obtained facts “…pay other people to sit at home doing nothing for 2 years, because there’s some flu about.” That’s not one.

    My son says the first lockdown was one of the best times of his life, started growing veg. So did I, and discovered that couple-sized quantities involve very little toil at all.

  103. Dan says:

    @ fruitella

    What are “real environmental policies” though? Seems to me that many of these “planet saving” ideas are just a rouse to serve wealthy landowners and / or private companies.

    There is fuck all green about fitting air sourced heatpumps onto unsuitable badly insulated buildings.
    There is fuck all green about fitting solar PV arrays onto the north facing roofs of properties.
    Just insulate the properties as best we can and supply them with reasonably priced and quiet renewable power through the existing electric grid.
    There is fuck all green about building a shit load of machines for DRS plus the significant energy and logistics it will take to service the scheme when folk could just be educated and motivated to use the existing recycling facilities and services we already have in place in the 32 local authority areas across Scotland.
    The fact that we are still building energy from waste incinerators suggests there is not expected to be a significant drop in the calorific value of stuff (ie. plastics) thrown away in general waste bins.
    Dundee energy from waste incinerator was accepting lorry loads of waste transported up to it from Glasgow to meet its contractual running (ie profit) agreement.

    Aye, A9 incidents did seem to reduce with the average speed cameras being installed. Some of the junctions are still terrible though and that is where many of the incidents occur. Mate is a fireman and is often out dealing with the carnage. (Incidentally, on mention of fire service, there are issues with fire service cutbacks at the moment too.)
    Imagine the massive amount of cash, labour, and materials for dualing the A9 had instead been spent on upgrading the main lines and electrifying the rail network so we could run electric trains powered by our renewable energy carrying the main bulk of our produce up and down the length of the country.

    There needs to be a sea change in folks’ thinking and actions to make a difference in reducing our consumption. And I just don’t think that can happen in the current circumstance because some folk are now just so stretched / stressed trying to get by, whilst so many others are influenced by the msm which subliminally pushes consumerism practices onto the masses.

    I think I do more than most to reduce my impact on the planet with growing as much fruit and veg as I can, recycling allsorts, fixing existing stuff, and have got by using an average of just 1kwh of leccy a day for over 20 years, yet still managed to live a full-filling existence. But I’m very much aware I am an outlier in today’s society.

  104. highlander says:

    Dan says:
    25 June, 2023 at 5:28 pm

    The Scottish Government Administration of Devolved powers could have had a legitimate clash with Westminster and made political gain last December when around 800 folk were treated for hypothermia in energy rich Scotland thus burdening our already stretched health services,


    That was down to the snp cutting cold weather payments-

  105. John Main says:

    @fruitella the hun 6:20

    You got me! Well done.

    You fooled me into thinking we were having a grown up debate.

    I guess the urge to pointlessly points score was just too much for you.

    Re sitting at home for 2 years on full pay. I worked out that if nobody and nothing had lost out after a year of somebody’s “no show”, any rationalist could conclude the job was a non-job. To repeat the nonsense for a second year simply added insult to injury.

    Anyways, glad it all worked out to your advantage. As I am one of the mugs whose taxes paid for your sabbatical, shame you can’t find the simple decency to show some gratitude.

  106. PacMan says:

    John Main says: 25 June, 2023 at 12:03 pm

    @PacMan 11:07

    So you are finally growing up!

    Don’t worry, it’s a spectrum. Some lucky teens are already there at 16. Others manage to drag out their childhood into their forties. IMHO, the key rite of passage is the day it finally dawns on you that the world does not owe you a living. If you can get your head around that idea at a young enough age, you have a good chance of making something of yourself. Hope it’s not too late for you!

    I’ve been debating whether to reply to you about this because for the life of me I am unable to understand what your comment has to do with my post. However, I’ll bite.

    In your post, you said I’m finally growing up. I hardly think you are talking about my changing tastes in movies. I had plenty of time on my hands during the lock down so why nothing to do, I ended up going out of my comfort zone watching more movies that I would normally have watched.

    The only thing I can think of what you are talking about is my changed attitude towards Trans in relation to the movie scene I mentioned.

    It doesn’t matter if that movie had contained woman, ethnic or any other minority. I still would have said the miner was in the wrong by resorting to violence even though he had his buttons deliberately pushed.

    I know it is a fictional movie but I don’t doubt it is a situation that every person who is part of a minority has experienced at least once in their lifetime and while they may have had a cause in it, there is no valid reason for the other party to escalate it with violence other than satisfying their prejudices and bigotries.

    The point I’m making is that all goodwill has been lost with the Trans community and it is mostly down to their own fault. It is also not going to help that they are talking about ‘going for children’ even if it just to antagonise or push the buttons of conservative groups. Saying such things is offensive to any fair minded person.

    I fail to see how such thinking is ‘finally growing up’?

  107. highlander says:

    fruitella the hun says:
    25 June, 2023 at 5:59 pm

    The fatalities on the A9 dropped very significantly when they brought in 60 mph average speed cameras.


    It’s gone up since they started using them-

  108. Dan says:

    highlander says: at 7:32 pm

    That was down to the snp cutting cold weather payments-

    I’m not defending the SNP on that score, but will point out that as mentioned previously, energy is a power reserved to London Rule, so it would have been a none issue and saved layers of bureaucracy if the twats in Westminster had simply better regulated and reined in the big energy corporates from making massive profits whilst consumers the length and breadth of the UK were having to pay extortionate amounts for their fuel bills.

  109. John Main says:


    I interpreted your original post as you saying you would have defended “progressive” attitudes a few years ago, but now you are over that.

    Apologies if I got that wrong.

  110. fruitella the hun says:


    I can’t find the exact official source I based my statement on but from memory the numbers fell when the cameras were introduced in 2014 then spiked to 13 in 2022 up to mid Oc#ober.

    If it’s no trouble could you post your source. The stuff I’m trawling up just now doesn’t say where the accidents were or whether they were on a single track or dual carriageway or if a junction or roadworks was involved. They do show a reduction though, not an increase, in the first three years.

  111. fruitella the hun says:

    “I guess the urge to pointlessly points score was just too much for you.“

    Guess it was. Quirky use of language there, not clichéd. But you have jumped to the wrong conclusion. Grown up reading skills might still not have revealed directly that I am touching 70 but properly reading my previous posts you have chosen to comment on would have.

    You weren’t paying any more for me to sit on my arse during lock-down than you are now, you’ll be pleased to know.

  112. PacMan says:

    John Main says: 25 June, 2023 at 8:41 pm

    I interpreted your original post as you saying you would have defended “progressive” attitudes a few years ago, but now you are over that.

    Apologies if I got that wrong.

    No need to apologise.

    I still believe in progressive values but not the “progressive” agenda that is being pushed now. They have simply gone too far with it and in particular, there is no way any decent person can associate themselves with the Trans movement if they are exhibiting utterly stupid and self-destructive behaviour like what I had highlighted in the tweet from the NYC Drag march.

    Just one last thought on this Trans movement. I had mentioned in a previous thread where I had likened it to the Hippy movement of the Sixties.

    Having watched that Priscilla in the Desert movie, while I get it that there in particular men who like to dress up as woman for whatever reason, it does reinforce this notion that I had mentioned of whole Trans identity being like the Hippy movement which was a alternate lifestyle/counter-culture thing.

    If that is what they want to do with their lives then that is fine but the rest of society, including woman who have to give up a lot of their rights and freedoms to do so, can’t be expected to accommodate it.

    Sure, it is the right thing to do by respecting the rights of minorities but there is a limit to that and frankly if you take the gypsies kiss like these TRA’s have done then they can’t really expect much sympathy.

    I don’t doubt that with what is happening the past couple of years that there other old-school progressives like me who feel the same way.

  113. highlander says:

    Dan says:
    25 June, 2023 at 8:26 pm

    highlander says: at 7:32 pm

    “That was down to the snp cutting cold weather payments-”

    I’m not defending the SNP on that score, but will point out that as mentioned previously, energy is a power reserved to London Rule, so it would have been a none issue and saved layers of bureaucracy if the twats in Westminster had simply better regulated and reined in the big energy corporates from making massive profits whilst consumers the length and breadth of the UK were having to pay extortionate amounts for their fuel bills.

    Your wrong- cutting cold weather payments caused the hypothermia.

    the energy co. lost money in the uk. they made profits overseas.

    It was 30+ years of green nutter policies that caused the high bills nothing else

  114. Chris Downie says:

    While I won’t lament the collapse of the careerist troughers, chancers and pension grifters that comprise the modern SNP, we need to start building for the aftermath. Once the dust settles and the Unionists are all gloated out, the stark reality of the status quo and its failures will again be laid bare and we must capitalise on it.

    If Starmer wins and becomes PM (and I remain far from convinced he will get an overall majority, when push comes to shove) it will only represent a temporary respite from the natural order of things, before the Tories inevitably regroup and return to power for their obligatory 65-70% monopoly on power. At best, Labour will only win a second or third term by being Tory-lite and Scotland’s interests will most definitely NOT be served by either party.

    Yes, the SNP capitulation makes our situation look grim, but never, ever forget the reality that sticking with the status quo entails. Independence will never go away, for this reason alone. Only the people can decide whether we take that final step afterwards.

  115. Mark says:

    Just knuckle down and run the country properly. If you can demonstrate that, you might just convince enough people to vote independence. And that is me speaking as a Unionist – but believer in “the smaller and more local the government, the better”

    Until Holyrood can do this effectively, independence will be forever just over the next hill…

  116. Alf Baird says:

    Mark @ 6:04 pm

    “Just knuckle down and run the country properly.”

    A colonial territory is always run ‘in the colonizer’s interest’ (Albert Memmi), which means it will never be run ‘properly’, or function in the native peoples interest. Why did you think there is a Scottish independence movement?

  117. Ebenezer Scroggie says:

    Which empty seat at the Caird was the one reserved for Sturgeon?

    Did it have a whoopee cushion?

  118. John McGregor says:

    All they are interested in is the GRAVY TRAIN nothing more nothing less

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top