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Wings Over Scotland

The enemies of achievement

Posted on October 06, 2017 by

Sometimes it’s hard for Yes supporters in Scotland not to be a bit jealous of Catalonia.

Despite their would-be nation being only a little bit bigger than Scotland, and despite being faced with very real physical and legal intimidation, the Catalan independence movement regularly manages to put hundreds of thousands of people on the streets.

Yes marches and rallies in Scotland, by comparison, often struggle to get attendances numbered in the hundreds, largely because squabbling factions refuse to get along with each other and by far the biggest entity in the Yes movement – the SNP – wants nothing to do with them.

Marches don’t win independence, of course. But what does?

Since neither Scotland nor Catalonia is yet independent, that’s not an easy question to answer. But we rather suspect that if Scotland had had Catalonia’s indy movement in 2014, things would be rather different.

The discipline of the Catalans seems remarkable. Not for them the endless in-fighting over ideology and egos that bedevils their Scottish counterparts. You never hear about Catalonian activists angrily refusing to share platforms with each other over some arcane and barely-comprehensible policy detail. We’ve searched in vain for evidence of Catalans bitterly raging at each other over gender-balanced panels or Twitter jokes or exactly what the level of income tax in an independent Catalonia should be.

They appear to have realised that the only policy of an independence movement should be independence, and everything else is the business of normal politics once that goal is achieved.

Perhaps the open brutality of the Spanish government in Madrid helps focus minds. Perhaps you care less about your ego and your personal agenda when riot police are clubbing you about the head and throwing you down stairs and putting your elected representatives in jail and closing down your newspapers and TV stations simply for peacefully and democratically campaigning for their beliefs. But whatever the reasons, they’ve had an (organisationally) enviable outcome.

The independence movement in Scotland doesn’t lack for middle-class talking heads pontificating endlessly in newspaper columns and to little rooms full of the converted, stroking their chins and nodding thoughtfully and electing themselves onto committees as they daydream about the utopian Scotland they would build if only someone else would go and win it for them first.

Nor is it at all short of embittered former politicians – last elected by anyone 30 years ago but screaming that people who’ve taken the movement a thousand miles further forward than they could ever dare to imagine are doing it all wrong – or brainlessly idealistic students who can’t decide whether they actually want to run their own affairs or entrust them to the seething nest of vipers that’s currently, temporarily, just about under the control of Oh Jeremy Corbyn.

What it doesn’t have much of is the visible presence of normal folk. Because when it comes down to it, you can debate policy all day and all night and the only people who’ll ever hear you are the 1% of the population who watch politics shows. But we’re struggling to think of any major political movement anywhere in the world that has ever succeeded in bringing about radical change without being seen.

Maybe it’s time to let people join in.

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    365 to “The enemies of achievement”

    1. John Thomson says:

      If we could be so brave, well done to Catalonia they have and still endure.

    2. Dax says:


      Certain sections of the independence movement are nowhere near as inclusive or welcoming as they would like to think they are. Particularly if their own ‘visions’ are not paramount and shared by all, as you allude to.

    3. Calum McKay says:

      A case of can’t see the wood for the trees or down in the weeds!

      Name the five most critical changes or items that independence will deliver over the union and then hammer these hard and continuously with absolute conviction!

      The economic debate, let alone the minutiae and endless possibilities of tax are dead end discussions, no one wins but unionists have the loudest voice so they win!

      Less is more!

    4. George Clark says:

      Not to be too pedantic, but Scotland is more than twice the size of Catalonia, 80k square kilometres against 30k.

    5. mountain shadow says:

      If the SNP learned anything at the last General Election it’s that independence must be at the top of their agenda at all times, it cannot sway from it for one moment.

      They need more visibility at Yes marches etc.. and not to be scared of abuse from the MSM because of it, they are going to get the abuse anyway, so embrace the Yes campaign, in fact they should be leading it.

    6. Breastplate says:

      Agreed Rev, independence, independence, independence.
      Too many people who want to put a thousand carts before the horse.
      Did I mention independence?

    7. Bradford Millar says:

      it’s a mentality thing …. to often Scots accept the scraps thrown at t hem by Westminster

    8. steveasaneilean says:

      I think that is the fundamental problem. It should be about independence first and foremost – policy can wait.

      It feels to me we have it the wrong way round – everyone focusing on what policies an independent Scotland could bring forth without focusing on the need to persuade a majority of Scots that it’s independence we need first and foremost.

      The lack of street demonstrations has always struck me as odd in a country where allegedly almost 45% want independence and where a small surge is all that might be required.

      The truth is that it will never happen unless and until a majority want it and want it badly enough and we are just not there yet.

    9. Morva Wortley says:

      Of the many cogent articles that have been submitted for persusal by committed followers or just the mildly curious who stumbled across the Wings site, this article may just be one of the best. The electorate in Scotland we were widely informed following the 2014 Referendum was possibly the most politically aware in Europe,

      The reality is that people have to have something to believe in to become committed to a cause. The bickering, lack of direction, politicians seen to be playing for time will all have contributed to the 70% of 2015 SNP voters staying at home on the 8th of June.

      Of course people should be encouraged to join in. Perhaps the issue is more to do with them questioning what it is on offer for them to join?

    10. Brian Powell says:

      Exactly right. Even some SNP supporters try to pretend they are not, and it’s not an SNP Government in Holyrood.

    11. MajorBloodnok says:

      Somehow I think Catalonia will gain its independence before Scotland does…

    12. sassenach says:

      Well said, Rev, it certainly needs some heads knocking together here in Scotland’s Indy movement – but by ourselves (as opposed to baton-wielding fascists!).

    13. Helena Brown says:

      We marched along with many others before we finally got to vote on devolution. We watched them march against the war in Iraq, it may make a great show, I seriously doubt that it achieves much. What would is getting the people to vote YES.
      The internet helps a great deal, people realise they are not alone in their beliefs. I would march again, unfortunately I have an arthritic dog nowadays who cannot be left for long and most take place in either Edinburgh or Glasgow.

    14. galamcennalath says:

      Catalonia has its own mainstream media. I’d be very interested to know where that stands. Split evenly? Biased one way? Or trying to be impartial?

      We know that Scotland’s limited mainstream print media is heavily anti-Indy biased, and we have no mainstream broadcast media worth talking about. We get an overwhelming amount of London based/biased output.

      What impact is Catalonia’s media having? And how different is it from Scotland’s?

      We hear blow by blow accounts of proceedings at Westminster, but very little about Holyrood. In Catalonia are the population more clued up about what they devolved administration does and has achieved?

    15. mogabee says:


      It’s too cold.
      It’s too wet.
      I have to work.
      It’s too far.
      My friends might see me.
      Genuine reasons excluded. 😀 😀 😀

      Maybe, we are just too feart.

    16. schrodingers cat says:

      having control over their own media helps catalunya. thats why wings etc is so important

    17. Az says:

      George Clark 12:37pm

      It’s pretty obviously referring to the size of population, as is normal for such comparisons.

    18. Etrigan says:

      Spot on Stu. Visibility gives credibility. The National yes Registry is a great grass roots communication tool that most Yes groups are involved with. The Idea is fantastic.
      It’s a sort of glue to bind everyone together. The Registry message was not to wait to be told what to do, just go out and do it.
      So to everyone out there, download the National Yes Registry App from the web site, find your local Yes group and let’s do this.

    19. Chas Clark says:

      “How does my action benefit Scotland and its people?”

      This should be required contemplation by every politician in Holyrood and every commentator in the media. If they can’t provide a simple answer they should button it.

    20. mogabee says:

      Morva Wortley

      Like your explanation better and agree we need to believe in something…

    21. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Not to be too pedantic, but Scotland is more than twice the size of Catalonia, 80k square kilometres against 30k.”

      That definitely IS to be too pedantic. Soil doesn’t vote.

    22. Welsh Sion says:

      Is it just me or does anyone else think these two pro-union twonks were separated at birth? (And they had the same mother – Margaret Thatcher)?

      Both seem to enjoy a meal from their beards, too!


    23. Dun ks says:

      Though it must be fantastic to have so many independent tv and radio channels supporting Catalan independence, not to mention numerous catalan newspapers.

      And what do we have?

    24. Vestas says:

      If Scotland had been under the control of a dictator who banned the language and murdered over 50,000 civilians in peacetime less than 50 years ago I think you’d see more of a turnout 😉

      The SNP appears deeply uncomfortable with the idea of rallies which obviously doesn’t help.

    25. Ian Foulds says:

      Glad to see that more than one of us thinks there should be one goal viz. Independence!

    26. Etrigan says:

      Why don’t we start by filling the Usher Hall on Saturday 4th November at 10am. SIC Bridges to Indy. Tickets are £16.50 or £8.80 is your an old codger.
      Are you going Stu?
      Are the Yes Registry Going?
      Lets do this.

    27. Donald Bruce says:

      Perhaps Catalonias independance movement have people from across the political view. Why is it only seen that the SNP are a left of centre party. How many nationalist conservative are there. Bet a lot. Scots are hard working standing up on their own feet and hate being told that it’s Westminster that subsidise Scotland. Would Corbyn such money out of Scotland yes.

    28. Stoops says:

      Couldn’t agree more Your Holiness. The Scottish Independence movement spends too much time and energy sitting in an echo chamber preaching to the converted. There is also a tendency to engage with narrow visioned idiots on social media, another waste of time and energy and a practice I gave up for the sake of my health.

      I take it upon myself to be personally outraged about our current situation and am always happy to remind my No voting friends and relatives when they have cause to complain about some post referendum Westminster political outcome that this is exactly what they voted for. For me it is the only positive outcome from the referendum.

      A cohesive Yes movement which could mobilise thousands of people and produce clever and professional advertising for independence would make the case much stronger. That’s something we simply don’t have at present.

    29. J Davidson says:

      I actually don’t go along with the premise that the Scots cant or wont take to the streets to demonstrate. I for one would gladly march but I never know when a march is going to be organised! I do agree however, that the movement is not organised in an inclusive manner. Couldn’t there be some way of getting the information out there to all independence supporters? Please, please don’t say social media! I am a retired business woman who is completely bamboozled when it comes to twitter etc. I understand the SNP taking a small step back in order to answer their critics when they are accused of “not doing the day job” – nonsense of course – but we need to be more organised!

    30. Martin Wood says:

      Well said

    31. Rob Outram says:

      I agree with all of this but one way to get numbers and the one thing that Catalonia has and we don’t, is a sympathetic media. The fact that the Spanish government is trying to close them down demonstrates how powerful they are.

      If we had a mainstream newspaper and/or TV station that reported the truths that WoS does we’d double the number of people on the streets and in the voting booths.

    32. tartanfever says:

      Yet, even with this huge, visible support, the EC and EU refuse to acknowledge any support for them, siding with Spain.

      Contrast this with the Ukranian revolt a few years ago, another anti-constitution uprising, this time by far right neo-nazis (Svoboda) where the EU couldn’t keep it’s hands off – threatening sanctions against the Ukranian government and pumping millions into ‘citizen’ led organisations.

      The contrast and hypocrisy is startling and I’m really surprised no-one seems to be mentioning this.

    33. Ian Foulds says:


      If you are ‘standing on your own two feet’, are you not Independent and, if not, why not?

    34. a supporter says:

      I suppose the answer to many of your questions is that Scottish Independence is many years short of the length of experience of the Indy movement In Catalonia. We really are still at the birth of the Indy movement in Scotland even though we nearly did it by a fluke in 2014.

      But even now, with the shambles of Brexit and the incompetent Tory Gov, and the Lab Parties in England and Scotland just as incompetent, we in Scotland are still so riven by factionalism and a lack of will for Independence. It makes me want to weep and permanently fuck off to somewhere like France or Germany.

    35. osakisushi says:

      100% agree

      I do not give a shit about our currency, europe, tax levels, oil production.

      I want my country to care about these things ONCE it is a country.
      Everything else is just diversion tactics.

    36. ross says:

      Its the media.
      They have Catalan tv channels and newspapers informing Catalans about Catalan news in Catalan. They have no need to watch the Spanish news or read the Spanish press.

      We,an actual country, have British news on the telly, Scottish versions of English based papers lying to us and there is nothing we can do about it. Catalans dont have to listen to lies and spin from Spanish media.

    37. Derick fae Yell says:

      The saturation media we face is an issue, particularly broadcast

      Mostly we are not so lucky in the stupidity of our opponents as Catalonia is.

      Despite the massive annual rallies (1.8m in 2014, falling to about a million this year) support for Independence in Catalonia has been substantially lower than here.

      What has changed things, changed them utterly, has been the unhinged response of the Spanish authorities in the last few months, and on Sunday.

      I can’t see how the centre can hold now. And that is pretty much entirely down to Mariao Rajoy and the PP.

    38. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why don’t we start by filling the Usher Hall on Saturday 4th November at 10am. SIC Bridges to Indy. Tickets are £16.50”

      Thanks for providing such a pertinent example of the middle-class self-appointed chattertariat talking to itself.

    39. geeo says:

      Right, i will kick this off, and hooefully others will follow suit.

      Have i been a bit argumentative and narky on here recently ?

      YES i have.

      I have let myself be annoyed by trivial matters and have attacked posters (other than the usual goons who i usually ignore, but have shemefully responded to).

      For this, i fully apologise.

      There is only ONE issue that matters, voting Yes.

      Without independence, we have NOTHING.

      Without independence, we are subservient.

      Without independence, we have NO voice.

      Without independence, OTHERS decide the europe options for us.

      Without independence, we are not going to be a country for much longer.

      So, why are we arguing about the colour of independence, before we even have it ?

      It is simple, if you want independence, VOTE YES.

      Do not caveat it, do not conflate it, if you want independence, VOTE YES.

      Without a Yes vote, EVERYONE who wants independence, LOSES.

      This is not the time to lose focus, i am sorry to say, i have done so a bit recently, it will not happen again.

      Sorry again to all i have upset recently.

    40. PRJ says:

      I think the issue is more to do with the media. The media in Scotland is hostile to the independence movement. To get attention in the media you only need to mention something that can easily be twisted. Without an independent media source available to all then we will be unable to counteract the MSM. Trying to control the independence movement and the shared platforms is probably damage limitation. We need a media platform separate from the Internet then we can say a hell of a lot more, knowing we have a forum to disseminate the information.

    41. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “We need a media platform separate from the Internet then we can say a hell of a lot more, knowing we have a forum to disseminate the information.”

      I’d also like a pony and a magic castle.

    42. Graf Midgehunter says:

      I’m not very optimistic for Catalonia’s chances of gaining independence at the moment.

      The UN’s chapters on self-determination all well and good but Catalonia is locked into the Spanish constitutional and legal system which means that any one-sided attempts from them will be frowned upon by Spain and other international bodies such as the EU.

      The Guardia Civil violence and probable army deployment on Monday is a disgrace to the reputation of Spain and the courage of the Catalans in showing their will for indy will be around for a long time.

      Catalunia alone against Spain won’t work IMO so maybe the Cats should try to increase their power base in another way.

      Why shouldn’t Catalunia not get together with the Basque Country, Gallicia and the Balearic Islands and form a “Northern Block”?

      Politically, economically and socially working together in the Spanish Parliament they could wield a lot of power, firstly for their own autonomy and secondly for bringing about positive change to the national Constitution.

      In Scotland we have a different situation whereby Scotland is a founding PARTNER of the 1707 Treaties which means WE also should have a say in what our future holds.

      NS has said we that we do not want to be taken out of the EU against our will and 62% have voted for staying in.

      At the end of next year we’ll all know what Brexit will mean for the UK. What deal or none are we getting? May says we’re going – NS says we’re staying.

      This is the crux where the boil needs lancing.

      Are we or are we not our own masters?

      This is where Sovereignty really comes into play because Sovereignty is the be all and end all.
      Are we sovereign? Then the elected representatives for Scotland speak for us and can take action on our behalf.

      No indyref2 – we make our own decisions.

      The only people I trust to do this are in the SNP. My party.

    43. mike cassidy says:

      But what currency would Catalonia use?

      This will take you back.

      As will the comments.

    44. Yerkitbreeks says:

      Pity then, when a small section wants to promote a language unique to Scotland, there are those who relentlessly put them down.

      Does glass houses come to mind ?

    45. galamcennalath says:

      I read a demographic survey of Catalan Indy support a few months ago and can’t find it now.

      The main demographic of YES is language. Catalan speakers are pro Indy by a large margin. Similarly those with only Spanish are anti. This means that rural dwellers are pro Indy, city dwellers less likely to be because immigrants from the rest of Spain tended to move to the cities.

      Something which does come to memory which was the inverse of Scotland was education. The higher the educational attainment, the more likely a Catalan is to support Indy.

      I must try to find that survey because it did show a different profile than Scotland.

      A different demographic for a typical Indy supporter, could explain different typical behaviour.

    46. Pep Guardiola says:

      I’d love Catalonia to be independent but I voted no because I don’t like that Carles Puigdemont……

      ….Probably said nobody in Catalonia ever.

    47. Chick McGregor says:

      This was the main message of Independence First.

      Those of us in the middle had a helluva job trying to keep both right wing and left wing agendas off the table.

      We did just about manage that but only with some considerable rancour from both sides.

      Those vying for leadership on the left seemed to me to be particularly narcissistic, in many cases their main goal appeared to be not independence nor even government but adulation.

      Both sides attempted entryist takeovers and the left eventually managed that. It seems to be a well rehearsed ploy from the left.

      However, by then, the main aim of IF at that time, getting an indy ref. was already assured by the SNP election to government.

    48. heedtracker says:

      Thanks for providing such a pertinent example of the middle-class self-appointed chattertariat talking to itself.


      Problem with the hard questions like these, you start to do the Britnats in Scotland work for them.

      Maybe its as simple as, the harder SNP Scots gov work to do the best things for Scotland, the happier Scots are, to keep the status quo.

      So UKOK logic dictates, let in the red and tory britnats again, to fcuk Scotland over and over, like they’re just itching to do, and to YES votes in particular.

      But then they have massed ranks of BBC gimp network propaganda to brainwash us all, into actually liking red and blue tory rule. Seems to have worked in their Scotland region, since the invention of telly, by a Scot:D

    49. Roland Smith says:


      Let’s just adopt the leave campaigns successful slogan.

      Take back control.

    50. PRJ says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      6 October, 2017 at 1:27 pm

      ““We need a media platform separate from the Internet then we can say a hell of a lot more, knowing we have a forum to disseminate the information.”

      I’d also like a pony and a magic castle.”

      You can say the same for the Independence movement, will we ever come together as one? What it comes down to is, if there is a will there is a way. As an example you have raised over £100000 in funding can you imagine how many free papers that could publish.

    51. Scottish I Am says:

      Hi guys first time ever on here. I don’t fully agree that our numbers are not attending rallys because of in-fighting, although obviously that has something to do with it. There was a rally in Glasgow a couple of weeks ago that when I mentioned it to people they all said they didn’t know about it. I myself had only come across it by browsing WOS. We need to be more vocal in advertising our meetings/rallys. I also had one ask what kind of march I had been on only to have them say ah I don’t like that nicola sturgeon or SNP. People have to know that it isn’t all about SNP its about the YES movement in general.

    52. crisiscult says:

      I wonder who’s out talking about independence to anyone and everyone, steering conversations in a way that are linked to indy, or slagging off the state of the UK, wearing their Yes badges or other paraphernalia, and you know, just the basic daily stuff anyone can do. I’m doing it. I suspect many who read Wings are doing it, but from my observations in Glasgow (a YES city let’s not forget), it’s not all that visible.

      Some, like Rev Campbell, are doing much more of course, and more power to them (still looking forward to some more ‘in your face’ advertising from Wings like appeared in 2014), but who’s organised to do the deliveries? As many have pointed out, Catalonia has its own media, and we need to keep banging on in Scotland to whoever we can about the propaganda we face. I don’t think I have a family member, friend, or acquaintance who does NOT know I have no TV licence, for example.

    53. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah want Smarties ( the sweetie variety ) NO the smart arsed wannabe politician of whatever Leftist/Rightist/Centreist/Green/Purple or Wee Ginger Dugs wie Pink spots . We wont get Independence unless we collectively get behind & VOTE for the only Political Party who have any chance of Delivering US OUR INDEPENDENCE the SNP . All other groupings in the political sphere in Scotland are just white noise in demanding this & that beforehand , they cant hold they’re horses until we have a Majority SNP Gov in Holyrood when the clearout will be finished no more Unionists , is the 4yr wait until the next Holyrood parliamentary elections to long for the Egotistical Bastards who want they’re 15mins of fame . International Socialism is DEAD if it ever existed Worker’s of the World Unite PISH ON A POLE( SOUNDBITES ) but it wont put a piece of bread on anybodies table & never did . There are many decisive & distracting elements LETS UNITE ONCE & FOR ALL UNDER A INDEPENDENCE ONLY BANNER . If yous agree with my sentiments LIKE IT OR LUMPIT . INDEPENDENCE TO THE LAST BREATH . Btw Im no a member of any political party .

    54. Andy-B says:

      We need to show those who are living in Scotland, that they’d be better of in a independent nation, than part of the union.

      There are many who vote yes because they care about the future of Scotland and its children. However there are also those who would only vote yes to independence as long as there is something in it for them, usualy a financial incentive,

      Finally there are those who hate themselves nevermind the thought of a independent Scotland, and would rather see Scotland become a toxic barren wasteland than vote yes to independence.

    55. Macart says:

      Couldn’t agree more.

      Independence is about independence. No mystery. No policy. No complicated philosophy. It is what it says on the tin.

      Your right to choose. Your freedom to choose.

      If you don’t want any of those bothersome responsibilities. If you’d rather someone else did your thinking and acting for you, then fine. Be aware though, you don’t get to complain when they do something you don’t want or like. You’ll have given up that right. If you continue to live under a system of government which is based on democratic deficit, an out dated autocratic and elitist order, don’t be stunned when they don’t respond to your needs. You’ll have given up that right too. When your devolved administration can no longer mitigate or offset the legislative folly of central government, again no use bitching about what your choice du jour didn’t do right. YOU will have denied them the powers to affect anything.

      THAT is just how important independence is. They’re your rights and your powers. You can either use them or lose them. At this point where we’re all kinda looking over a political, societal and economic cliff edge which easily could have been avoided three years ago, it’s about time to get serious about reading from the same page.

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I don’t care if someone is left of left or right of centre. I don’t care what your point of origin is, your gender, your religion, or whether you’re a serial bad dresser with a penchant for Paisley pattern ascots and Buchanan Tartan trews. You only need to believe, that’s BELIEVE, that the people best suited to make decisions about Scotland’s future are Scottish citizens. I for one, will be more than fucking delighted to take your hand.

      We could also use a bit of direction from our civic leaders, the pro independence journos, thinkers and business people. I believe that people need something to hold onto outside of their political party attachments. Something that will formally bring them together and give them the excuse to put their rosette in a drawer. Something that allows each and every one of us to hold out a hand without fear of it being slapped away because… reasons.

      We’re a country, not a region. We need a fully empowered government, not a devolved parish council that’s constantly asked to ‘mitigate and offset’ by a shower of cringe ridden careerists who see their great future elsewhere. STOP thinking about tomorrows policy in a devolved parliament. We’ve got someone there doing that job for us and doing the best they can with what they’re given.

      Only the people, the citizens of Scotland can make that situation better. NOT the politicians, but YOU.

    56. heedtracker says:

      So fast forward to triumphant BBC Scotland gimp tv news 7 May 2021 and Scottish Tory First Minister Colonel Ruth victory parade… Ecstatic Jacky Bird’s uncontained excitement belches out of our not Scottish telly’s, “Scotland region’s new FM Colonel Ruth’s first acts as the tory Scotland region announces Jacky Bird, include the scrapping free bus travel for everyone in Scotland 60 and over!”

      Rule Britannia, Huzzah, roars the cheering crowd footage.

    57. I couldn’t agree more, there are those in the yes movement with their own agendas, who are quite willing to agitate and stir up animosity within the movement.
      They should be ignored.

      Nor should we forget we stand on the shoulders of giants, I have known many colleagues, who were campaigning for Scottish independence, long before I was born, and
      who sadly didn’t live to see what their commitment and hard work for independence has achieved.

      We need like them to stay united and provide that same commitment and hard work for our country of Scotland to regain its status as an independent Nation.

      So arguments about whether we should be in EFTA, EU or sovereignty is a distraction.

    58. Clydebuilt says:

      Great article Rev. Stu.

      The only form of Nationalist our MSM give space to are the ones described above, your Cat Boyd’s And Haggardly’s. . . ie.The kind that won’t win a single vote for Independence.

      In one respect the Catalans have an advantage over us. Their colonial masters have no sophistication. Their actions move undecided to YES.

    59. HandandShrimp says:

      The whole “splitter” thing does my head in but it has bedevilled left wing politics for decades. It is certainly the case that the Solidarity/Rise/SWP link to some of the recent marches has made people wary.

      Perhaps the big difficulty is that in Scotland the state power has relied on inertia and general lack of interest in things political to dampen enthusiasm for pretty much anything. In Spain the powers that be have gone off on one and that is when people start to connect.

      If Westminster started banning marches, arresting Nicola etc., then I think that would have an impact. Telling Scots they can’t do something would be a red rag to a bull. My only concern being our natural exuberance might make us less patient than the Catalonians in the face of some bell end wielding a baton.

      However, May and Fluffy Muddle seem to admire Rajoy so we might well see an attempt to replicate Rajoy’s brand of stupidity here. In which case I think independence would come sooner rather than later.

    60. Dan Huil says:

      Catalonia has a media more friendly towards its independence movement. As we all know the media in Scotland is overwhelmingly British nationalist. The Britnat media in Scotland proclaims its anti-independence lies with alacrity. No wonder many in Scotland are wary to march and protest.

      There is, however, quiet ways to protest: boycotting the britnat media [press, tv and internet], boycotting produce sold with the Butcher’s Apron stamped all over it, using posters, badges and stickers to express pro-indy fellings and refusing to pay the bbc tax.

      I would hope that the SNP encourages marches and peaceful protests in the future. It must do.

    61. Les Wilson says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      6 October, 2017 at 1:27 pm
      “We need a media platform separate from the Internet then we can say a hell of a lot more, knowing we have a forum to disseminate the information.”

      “I’d also like a pony and a magic castle.”

      We have one media open to us Stu, all the Scottish Indy blogs to work together rather than constant bickering between themselves.
      Set aside differences for Indy.

      If they could work in unison to decry every Unionist hit(s) of the day, in the blogs and our social media addicts who love that, the could together, put up a good response to them.

      Have suggested many times but no one ever replies, but we have good people who would join in I feel sure. It does need organised for an organised response but could be powerful. Maybe I am thinking wrong but could be a big help.

    62. Jack Murphy says:

      A few courageous State Broadcaster RTVE Espana journalists break cover.

      “On Twitter some RTVE journalists’ complained. “I felt ashamed today,” said Madrid-based RTVE journalist Gabriel López. “News updates have only been broadcast regarding Government announcements.
      RTVE again serving the Government.”

      RTVE producer Carlos Vidal Teixidó said:
      “Ashamed to belong to a public television that is not informing the people of atrocities we are today witnessing in Catalonia.”

      Journalists belonging to RTVE have reported biased coverage of the Catalan referendum causing the news board of the Spanish public broadcaster to initiate an internal investigation.”

      RTVE accused of manipulation, censorship in Catalan election coverage.

      Sound familiar?

    63. Doug Daniel says:

      There are loads of reasons why we don’t get mass rallies like they have in Catalonia. For one thing, they’re doing it in a city of over 1.6 million – almost three times the size of our biggest city. There’s also just a much stronger culture of doing that sort of thing over there, whereas we tend to keep those kind of public displays of emotion for football matches. And yeah, the weather doesn’t help. It also doesn’t help when rallies are held just before elections, meaning the most active activists are busy doing other stuff…

      But there’s also just something about the differences between the two movements. Catalan nationalism has a much stronger cultural element to it than ours does – and while some people may lament the fact we don’t put Gaelic at the centre of ours, the reality is Gaelic simply doesn’t figure in Scottish culture the way Catalan does in Catalonia.

      The reasons for Scottish independence are very much rooted in politics – being ruled by Tories when we don’t voted for them and so on – so it stands to reason that politics figures so heavily in the movement. That inevitably leads to a focus on policies, because we can’t really tell people the point of independence is to implement better policies without saying what some of those policies are.

      I dare say it also helps that the Catalan independence movement is led on the whole by a large centre-right party and a slightly less big left-wing party. Not only is there no real point in them even pretending they agree on policy, but it also means the burden isn’t placed entirely on the shoulders of one party to appeal to everyone. PDeCAT isn’t held to ransom by half the Catalan movement to tack to the left in exchange for support of independence.

      There’s other stuff too – the media, the tactics of London vs Madrid, the history of fascism, the history of autonomy. We simply don’t have the same history as Catalonia, and so we have a different present as well. All we can do is play with the hands we’ve been dealt.

    64. mike cassidy says:

      A touch of the devil’s advocate here.

      Here’s an opinion piece from two days before the vote in Catalonia which – among other things – directly addresses the ‘numbers in the street’ issue.

      “It would be dangerous for a liberal democracy to allow highly mobilized actors with the capacity to organize large-scale demonstrations to impose their agenda on the larger society that may not agree.”

      As someone with no personal inclination to ‘join in’, I would hate any decision on holding a Scottish referendum to be based on who can hold the biggest demonstrations.

      Oh, the ‘nos’ got more people out than the ‘yes’ side. Well, forget a referendum.

      Feck that!

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      Political Power and Civil Counterpower: The Complex Dynamics of the Catalan Independence Movement
      Civil proindependence associations are playing an increasingly significant role in Catalonia’s independence movement, putting pressure on the Catalan government to work decisively towards independence. This has led many Catalans to characterize the movement as a “bottom-up” phenomenon. This contribution analyzes the shifting power dynamics within mainstream Catalan nationalism over the last decade, challenging simplistic notions of “top-down” and “bottom-up” pressures for change. In fact, the movement is now inherently multidimensional—partly thanks to the pivotal role of the cultural elites and their grasp of the power of new media—and this in itself accounts in large part for its success.

    66. Beth Watt says:

      “Maybe it’s time to let people join in”
      You compiled a block list chock full of Yes supporters and encouraged other Yes supporters to use it!!!

    67. Dan Huil says:

      It would be great to see pro-indy politicians and weel-kent pro-indy supporters putting their heads above the parapet: joining Brian Quail in his protests, publicly stating they boycott the britnat nedia, stating they do not pay the bbc tax etc.

      We need leaders who aren’t feart; who aren’t feart to put their salary at risk; who aren’t feart to break Westminster’s anti-Scottish laws.

    68. Joe says:

      Maybe having a march and inviting everyone but not having any speakers would be a good start.

    69. Street Andrew says:

      All very well comparing the turnout with that in Catalunya, but you have to remember the impact of climate. The Spanish spend much more time out of doors than we do and it has a profound effect IMO on their sense of community.

      Think heatwave (if you can remember one) and the way British people spill out of doors and talk to one another.

      We used to do it in pubs (out of the rain) but extortionate levels of alcohol duty mean that is not common ground any longer.

      Have a word ‘upstairs’ about the weather, Stu. It could help.

    70. roddy anderson says:

      When you go to an indy rally do you want to see Tommy Sheridan or would you rather listen to what the democratically elected leaders of the SNP, Greens and Socialists have to say? Cos you can’t have both! The party leaders have to re-connect with the YES movement and that means speaking at rallies. Clearly someone other than H O F will have to organize these rallies!

    71. Sunniva says:

      I’ve been beaning up on Catalonia in the last few days.

      What I’ve learned is that they have massively more cultural confidence than Scots, with their own distinct language, culture, political parties and media. Most Catalans speak and use Catalan.

      Oddly though, this cuts both ways.

      As on the one hand, the cultural security and autonomy they feel, enables them to feel more relaxed about being part of Spain. Thus, until very recently, Independence was a minority position.

      But on the other hand, the sense of national distinctiveness is growing, and becoming more restless in its wish to assume a greater direction of affairs, and the 2008 crash and the central government in Madrid’s response to this seems to have acted as a tipping point.

      Because until then, Spain seemed to be quite happy to extend autonomy to regions. In 2006 a statute of autonomy was passed by the Spanish government which recognised Catalonia not just as an autonomous region, but as a nation.

      Then, after the crash, and with Rajoy in power, he revoked that statute. I don’t know why, but presumably it has something to do with Spain’s economic woes. Or maybe just his Francoist centralising tendencies, sparked by anxieties over the crash.

      It’s at that point the independence movement starts to gain traction.

    72. Brian Powell says:

      I would suspect even those who don’t want independence in Catalonia don’t spend all of their time denigrating it and putting their country down.

    73. heedtracker says:

      Have a word ‘upstairs’ about the weather, Stu. It could help.

      Unless youre a Catalan, you can judge the sheer power of state propaganda like the BBC’s.

      Last night BBC r4 10pm news monstered Catalonia with their copy cat Scotland 2014 Project Fear style, “biggest Spanish banks are now pulling out as we speak from the hell that is Barcelona.”

      Are they, no.

      Then exact same beeb r4 gimp, a Scot, with a very strong BBC Scot accent explained in depth how the Catalan Socialist party is 100% against Catalan independence.

      Classic BBC misinfo/flat out lies, double whammy, in a completely foreign country.

      BBC has the ability to lie and brainwash at industrial levels.

    74. Ken500 says:

      In Spain/Catalonia they have 4 months holiday a year. A month at Christmas, a month at Easter and two months July/August. It is too hot to work outside. Sometimes 40% Averages out at a week a month. Millions have plenty of free time to go out on the street. That does not decide anything. A legitimate vote does.

      Scotland economy is nothing like Catalonia at all. The Spanish economy has a large rural element. EU subsidies. Depends on tourism. Especially on the Costas. The Mediterranean coast. The bank crash happened on the Costas fraudulent Pozzi schemes and non regulation. (Catalonia). EU citizen/foreigners were cheated out of £Billions with no recompense under antiquated Spanish Law. Migrate contribution. Like most European countries the underlying population is falling without migration.

      They do have a healthy (eating) laid back, sunny life style. The Spanish Gov is Socialist. Left of centre like most European countries.

    75. Colin Dunn says:

      PRJ says:
      “We need a media platform separate from the Internet then we can say a hell of a lot more, knowing we have a forum to disseminate the information.”

      There are two smartphone options that might serve to do this, IF they are used enough.

      National Yes Registry – IndyApp
      Mostly intended for private group-to-group info sharing. Development has been a bit slow, though an update is due soon, I believe.

      Yes2Hub –
      More about sharing news, information and events. Seems more active and likely to take off, imho.

    76. Doug Daniel says:

      Ken500: “The Spanish Gov is Socialist. Left of centre like most European countries.”

      Rajoy’s government is very much right-wing! And hardly any European governments are left-wing at the moment, even in Scandinavia.

    77. One_Scot says:

      Putting my head on the chopping block here, but I have said it before, I believe the reach and influence of Reporting Scotland and STV News is a major problem.

      They control the way most Scots think and feel. Until there is a way to combat them and their support for the union, winning Scotland’s Independence will always be an uphill struggle.

      I don’t have a solution and there may well not be one.

    78. ScottieDog says:

      Not enough folk suitably outraged.
      Mostly down to media as @One-Scot mentions.

    79. bobajock says:

      Its the media – we have the Tory love-in of the BBC.

      Catalonia has its own state broadcaster 🙂

      Hell – everywhere thats a tiny bit independent has their own fully devolved channel.

      So many above this comment know this. Or how do you tell the whole country “there is a march today starting Glasgow Green …”

    80. Grant says:

      Not jealous, I applaud them.

    81. Ken500 says:

      Spanish TV is not very good. A few films now and again. Or boring political programmes of people talking to themselves. They do have quite good balance international news. Like EuroNews. A sympathetic focus on the world. People in Spain do not watch much TV. They are always outside socialising, enjoying the sun, fishing, swimming etc. Enjoying good non processed food. They have a healthy, stress free lifestyle. Free health care (not comprehensive after care). Free education, social benefits, pensions etc. They care about the old and the young. Vulnerable people. Very family orientated. They support each other. On the whole lovely people. The politicans are corrupt. Corrupt bankers, lawyers, politicians, royal family members are arrested and charged. Found guilty they go to jail.

    82. schrodingers cat says:

      I don’t have a solution and there may well not be one.

      there is but there isnt time to do this before indyref2

    83. Ken500 says:

      They are left wing compared to the Right wing UK Tories. They are out of sync with the EU collectively.

    84. Robert Graham says:

      A very inspiring movement with what’ looks like a massive attendance , similar to just before the 2014 vote , both movements with the same aim, operating under very different circumstances.

      I would expect if the Independence movement in Spain had the same restrictions placed on them as the YES movement here we would see the same reduction in visible and vocal support .

      This Limbo we are in just now , no obvious leadership, no visible goal, no coordinated link between various sections, everyone dressed up and nowhere to go , the starting gun nowhere in sight just a maybe, a possible, maybe soon maybe not, so what happens folk get twitchy, Narky , fed up with no obvious ground being covered.

      Then the daily drip drip drip being absorbed by possible new converts eating away at support for Independence, chip chip chip eroding the good work that has been achieved , the longer it goes on the worse it’s going to get.

      I believe a major mistake was made when we achieved the unthinkable , 56 SNP MPs and I believe that in itself was Scotlands reply to Mr Cameron’s invoking of EVEL , that vote was a collective f/k you to Mr Cameron and the English parliament , that’s when the agreement signed by the SNP should have been torn up and the referendum declared null and void, promises made to ensure a no vote were not delivered so the contract ‘ The Vow ‘ became a useless piece of paper garbage.

    85. Clootie says:

      Divide and rule works…Scotland proves it!
      …but only if you let them…The Catalans proved that

    86. Sorry guys, but any thoughts of TV or radio on the airwaves are a nonstarter. Ofcom will never grant a licence for a station that is pro-independence (political), and if it did you would need a legal fighting fund the size of Branson’s bank balance. We only have the Internet for that kind of thing. Radio on a shoestring I know a bit about through experience in community radio. The problem is content unless you want an independent supporting music station which would involve licence fees PRS PPL et cetera. It is all about content, the few podcasts with an indy slant could be used and as Wee Ginger Dug did for a while with his blog articles these articles could be voiced over that’s a start. It could certainly be grounded in the grassroots, anyone with a smart phone can download a recording app and create a two or three minute opinion piece for instance the comments in this thread can be voiced over. Anyone interested can contact me at ayerightradio [at] gmail [dot] com it wouldn’t be the BBC, thank God, but it could be a voice for yes.

    87. Fred says:

      Hope there’s some route that those injured at the polling stations can seek redress from the European Court & sue Rahoy & the Spanish Government.

    88. gus1940 says:


      I see that leading tractor Sillars is doing the bidding of his WM controllers by attacking Nicola accusing her of being ‘out of her depth’just in time for The SNP Conference.

      This failed party jumping political opportunist is a wretched apology for a human being.

      On another tack today’s EEN Report on the Labour Tram Fiasco Inquiry highlights a witness who is accusing the SNP Government of being responsible for the Fiasco.

      It had to happen – I wondered how long it would take before an attempt was made to blame it all on The SNP.

      Let’s see if they manage to make that one stick.

    89. Petra says:

      The greatest problem that we face IMO, other than the biased MSM, is that we have no one key non-political organisation drawing all of our talented individuals / groups together. The Catalonians have the ANC: An organisation that co-ordinates their independence movement, advertises future marches, events etc. Not surprising therefore that they have massive turnouts.

      Many people seem keen on blaming Nicola Sturgeon for the apparent apathy of the Independence movement, Nicola (singular) who’s bogged down with the day job / Brexit, and although I’m not a great advocate of the blame game I have to say that I’m pretty well scunnered with the multitude of talented people that we have in Scotland who don’t seem to have enough wits about them to get together, put their differences to one side, and get us, thousands of us, moving. What does come across loud and clear is the “Am no working wi them” mentality. Tommy Sheridan being a good example. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

      I’ve mentioned before that the Scottish Independence Convention (SIC), as an example, could act as the co-ordinating organisation with all great speakers, bloggers, ex-SNP politicians, video producers, IT experts, artists, musicians etc etc under one roof. They (the Salmond’s, Kerevan’s, Ponsonby’s, Robertson’s, Murray’s, Kavannah’s and so on and on and on) could train activists to lead teams across the country, produce promotional material, hold an archive of data that we could all access in an instant instead of having to trawl the Internet day after day, advertise events / rallies and so on. Imagine having all of these great minds working together, more than anything reaching out to us foot soldiers.

      It might be helpful, as a start, for a Scottish delegation to visit Catalonia to consult with the ANC. Find out what they’re seemingly doing right and where we’re seemingly going wrong.

    90. Chick McGregor says:


      There is. The ECtHR.

      Spain is clearly in breach of the underlying ECHR treaty.

      At the very least, they have denied the Right to Freedom Of Expression.

      But response would not be quick.

      The Spanish government would be allowed to respond to the charge in writing.

      Only then would the ECHR decide whether there was a case to answer and set a schedule for it.

    91. johnj says:

      Well said Stu, Jim Sillars take notice.

      My only concern is that the UK government’s taking notes. They’ll be wondering if a bit of brutality might just work, even if only to stave off the inevitable for a few decades.

    92. Dan Huil says:

      We need leaders who are willing to make personal sacrifices – serious sacrifices – for the cause.

    93. kininvie says:

      Our main problem is that we lost in 2014. This leads to:

      Loss of confidence that we can ever win
      Endless disputes about why we lost
      Terror of losing again and never getting another chance
      Having constantly to justify ourselves to the ‘no more referendums’ folk.

      There’s only one message we need: ‘Do you want to go down the plughole with the rest of the UK?’ Time for a bit of Project Fear (actually Project Truth) of our own.

    94. ahundredthidiot says:

      I am fine with the situation in Catalonia, but not envious. Not that I have any sympathy for Spain, but here’s a point.

      It is 2025 and Scotland is independent. A massive oil find and some of our Islands decide to go it alone. How would our contributors feel about that?

    95. kininvie says:

      ….and in point of fact, we’re not that bad. Reading the stories about how ballot boxes were collected from France and elsewhere by thousands of volunteers taking them to polling stations in the boot of their cars reminds me irresistably of our Wee Blue Book distribution network.

      Believe it: when the referendum is called, those people currently indulging themselves with factional arguments will ‘man up’ (to coin a phrase) and do what’s needed, along with the rest of us.

    96. Jock Scot says:

      I listened to Douglas Chapman give an update of his role as an observer at the poll last night and he mentioned the difference (re %) between the elderly Yessers in both campaigns. It struck me that the older folk in Catalonia remember Franco and this is their motivation. Too many old folk here still look back to WW2 and how we won the war. The legacy of Thatcher is tempered by older folk who,’got to buy their hoose’ and dodgy pensions denial. We still have Sillars’ imperialism to counter as well. TBH it would also have been nice to have had an Indy event outside the SNP conference so we have to ask the question..who will be part of an organisational group to keep these thing happening?

    97. Ken500 says:

      To describe Spain as Facist is ridiculous. They so laid back. They would fall over. They do what they like. There could be more regulation up dating the antiquated legal system. The Police are over zealous enforcing the Law. More people centred advocated training? The same in Scotland(UK). Too many innocent people end up in cells overnight on charges that can never go to court. A total waste of time and money. Traumatic. Trying to criminalise innocent people. They need additional needs training.

      Spain can be a mecca for International criminals.

    98. Sinky says:

      Proclaimers summed it up years ago

      We’re Cap in Hand
      We fight, when they ask us
      We boast, then we cower
      We beg
      For a piece of
      What’s already ours
      Once I thought I could make God a bribe
      So I said I was in his lost tribe
      Getting handouts can be so frustrating
      “Get in line son, there’s five million waiting”
      I can’t understand why you let someone else rule your land
      You’re Cap In Hand.

    99. Dan Huil says:

      Tavish Scott alert. It’s all the britnats have. So last decade, darling.

    100. Ken500 says:

      Did the elderly in Scotland not remember Thatcher? Scared out of their wits.

      The young folk in Scotland are coming on board. That is all that is needed to get over the line. If Indepenence supporters came out to vote.

    101. jfngw says:

      Jim Sillars the go to voice of independence supporters in Scotland, if you believe the the MSM. A man that achieved little as a politician but in his own mind he is a political titan.

      Two stories to compare today, Lord Kerr states devolution agreement is being broken, Jim Sillars makes farting noises at Nicola Sturgeon. Guess which one is front page news.

    102. Ken500 says:

      Sillars is making money out of his position. The more nonsense published. The more the remuneration. Desperation?

    103. Snode1965 says:

      Perhaps we should actually ask the local catalonia activists how exactly they have gone about setting up their network.
      There were quite a few observers from Scotland present at their referendum counts, they were there all week…did any of them pick up some tips?
      Mr Halliday for example.

    104. David McDowell says:

      “The Spanish government’s representative in Catalonia has apologised to those injured during police efforts to stop Sunday’s independence referendum. But Enric Millo blamed the Catalan government for holding an illegal vote.”

      A perfect “bully’s apology”: “I’m really sorry that you made it necessary for me to beat you up.”
      The same pathetic bullshit used by abusive cowards since time began.

    105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Macart @ 13:57:

      We could also use a bit of direction from our civic leaders, the pro-independence journos, thinkers and business people. I believe that people need something to hold onto outside of their political party attachments.

      Excellent point. I believe the same. People who are not interested in politics, or are even turned-off by it, (which is very many, alas) can be significantly influenced by non-political figures whom they trust, because (among other reasons) they are not seen as merely career-building. Also very difficult to demonise, as they do with party leaders such as Nicola.

      There has been too much silence and fence-sitting by civic leaders who should instead be getting involved. Some of this is possibly deliberate in this current return to the “phoney war”, but it’s leaving a vacuum that’s just crying out to be filled.

      An excellent example to the lot of them is Alan Bisset.

      Doug Daniel @ 14:16

      also makes a useful point that support for indy in Catalonia spans the entire political spectrum, whereas here it’s essentially the SNP with a little bit of help (sometimes) from the Greens (who rarely get airtime anyway). The remaining political parties are resolutely BritNat, but each of the three gets equal media time on its own to basically re-cycle the same old damn thing.

      Labour in particular have a lot to answer for. Those dogs-in-the-manger would apparently rather see Scotland suffer than support the one thing that would give us the necessary ability to move forward: independence.

      Not for any reason of principle but simply out of bitter jealousy of the SNP.

    106. Andy Anderson says:

      As Macart says above, ‘Independence is independence’. That’s it, the right to manage ourselves. Freedom from Westminster and a new invigorated Scottish nation.

      What Stu says is also correct. There is only one goal not a political variation of what it may be.

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      The legacy of Scotland’s (internal) colonisation affects us all, even if some wish not to acknowledge such.

      Paulo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed : Book Summary

      He has been called “the Rousseau of the 20th century” (Bhattacharya 2008: 101), “the John Dewey of the present era” (Kanpol 1997: 13) and “the most important educator” (Carnoy 2004: 7) of the second half of the 20th century”.[1] His book, Pedagogy of the Oppressed, termed a “classic” and “a seminal work”, has been translated into numerous languages and has sold over 1 million copies; and as per a study of 16 top schools of education in the US, was one of the most frequently assigned texts in their philosophy of education courses.[2] “His thinking” it has been claimed, “continues to be rediscovered by generations of teachers, scholars, community activists and cultural workers in Europe and the Americas”, and his books “continues to be read, debated and discussed all over the world by progressive educators”. And a media article recently asserted that “Paulo Freire’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed is timeless – as pertinent to the revolution in the Middle East now as to those in South America decades ago.”

      Giving Voice to Values

      Thinking through the Decolonial Turn: Post-continental Interventions in Theory, Philosophy, and Critique – An Introduction

    108. Giving Goose says:

      Re One_Scot

      When you find or see a story that illustrates the negative aspects of the UK then stick it under thd nose of Britnats and No supporters.

      There’s a stonker in the news today – the Royal Navy may lose x2 major beach assaul ships and 1000 marines.

      All because they haven’t enough sailors to man the aircraft carriers and no money.

      Brutish is suddenly Wimpish, with the Marines angry about the decision.

      Now what sort of a shite country finds itself in this embarrassing position?

      Spread this about.

    109. David McDowell says:

      “Marches don’t win independence, of course. But what does?”

      Guts, which the Catalans have proven they have in abundance.

      What doesn’t win independence?

      Repeatedly choosing to fight on the opponent’s ground, by the opponent’s rules, using the opponent’s choice of weapons.

      Insisting the only acceptable route to independence is through a gate which only the opponent holds the keys to.

      Insisting on believing the opponent will act in a fair, and democratic manner and concede graciously to well made political arguments.

      Choosing to pretend the opponent genuinely recognises a people’s right to self determination.

      I could go on, but facing up to reality isn’t our strong suit.

    110. Chick McGregor says:

      “It is 2025 and Scotland is independent. A massive oil find and some of our Islands decide to go it alone. How would our contributors feel about that?”

      In that instance they would be considered by international law to be enclaves on Scotland’s Continental Shelf and only entitled to a 12 mile limit.

    111. Ron Maclean says:

      Imagine being on an independence march, stuck next to the kind of boorish, abusive ranter we get so often on this site and it should be easy to work out why SNP seniors and many others might want to stay away.

    112. Grant McLean says:

      We need a headline. A slogan that appeals to the head and the heart. A line that works for supporters and also convinces in a logical and practical way to the undecided and no voters. I didn’t agree with voting leave but ‘ Taking back control’ was genius. I think the Labour Party have something in the For the many not the few’ line. The Tories have always been good at generating these phrases that stick. Of course a friendly Media also helps you cement your message. Not a simple brief to crack.

    113. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Powell says: 6 October, 2017 at 12:44 pm:

      “Exactly right. Even some SNP supporters try to pretend they are not, and it’s not an SNP Government in Holyrood.”

      On the contrary, Brian.

      It is an SNP Government at Holyrood and that is indeed the problem.

      First of all, as Nicola herself has pointed out several times, the SG must in all fairness govern for all the people of Scotland and that, whether we activists like it or not, includes the Westminster Tory, Westminster Labour, Westminster LibDems and those Scots that have not the slightest interest in politics or imagine that what happens at Holyrood doesn’t affect them. It must also take into consideration the Greens and even those parties that have no MSPs at the moment.

      They, at Holyrood are, after all the Scottish Government and must govern for everyone. The SNP, as a party, has a bit more leeway but not a great deal for the two – party and government, are bound tightly together.

      Which is where the YES Movement comes in and many, if not most, SNP Members, are also YES members or at very least supporters.

      YES can say and do things that the SNP parliamentary groups cannot get involved in. For starters they must all have either pledged or affirmed their allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen and they are subject to the official secrets act and parliamentary standards.

      The main problem is, of course, public opinion.

    114. Hamish100 says:

      Learn what we did well and repeat, recognising that the unionists will try and block
      Learn what we did wrong and try not to repeat despite the fact that the unionists will try and force us into the same errors.
      Recognise the agitators in our ranks are not pro Scotland but pro them

      We have a fantastic story to tell with fire and passion

      The best people able to govern Scotland are us

      Be prepared

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      During Indy Ref 1 I was able to make great play of being non-aligned, never belonged to a political party. Much of the rubbish in articles from the MSM was about the SNP, and as a non-aligned, I felt I had more impact debunking that rubbish with sourced fact. The SNP was the spearhead of Independence, and clearly vital. Anyone saying “Sycophantic cult Nat”, I could post, and did many times “Never been a member of a party, am not one now, and probably never will be”. Wings has the same strength, as the Rev was a LibDem and non-aligned.

      But then of course in Sep 2014 I joined the SNP to keep Indy alive like so many thousands did, ultimately that being 100,000 new members. I guess we all joined for Indy, not so much the policital party angle, some (many) like me not interested in some obtuse policy to put in a manifesto, or some obscure thing like party rules.

      But then as Peffers and others have pointed out, political parties have established and democratic routes, and speaking for myself and probably many of the new members, we’re mavericks, not interested in rule books. Give me Indy and who cares about minutes. Let’s talk about Indy. Well, that’s not on the agenda, and in fairness, probably shouldn’t be on the regular agenda – this is a political party for heaven’s sake, and the dedicated original members have given many hours, days, over the years, to support their party through thick and thin. If the party doesn’t do well, then since the SNP are the spearhead of Indy, Indy fails as well.

      There are for me, two kinds of criticism of the SNP, the spearhead of Independence. The first is destructive, it’s making criticisms which have no solution, it’s the past and has no bearing on the present or future. The second kind is constructive. It’s looking at something the SNP did or is doing, and can do differently either now or in the future.

      SNP members of course can go through the procedures, form a resolution, try to get support, and perhaps get it into the conference. This is the route for established members who know other SNP members, not just from their branch but from others. But for the new members that route is NOT really open, they just don’t know people, haven’t that bond, that trust from other members they’ve campaigned alongside for the good of the party. Who knows, they might even be interlopers, spies, trollls, fakes?

      The problem for the SNP is that without having adapted to that massive influx of 100,000 new unkown members with a variety of massive skills and enthusiam, it’s wasted. Now, this IS something that the SNP can do something about, but because the new memebrs themselves have no influence at all, it’s down to the original 25,500 members to push for this, to enable it, to insist the Party makes changes to the way it works to make use of the, so far, wasted 100,000 new members.

      I’m back to being non-aligned, my membership expired 30th September, and for me it’s a great feeling. I can be useful again, not just to Indy, but perhaps in “neutral” support for the party which is, still, that spearhead for Independence.

      Sorry about the length, it’s to give context to postings from me, and perhaps some others, in threads like this. But we’re not without influence posting in MSM. I’d take some personal credit for the SNP changing direction on NATO in 2012 in the autumn conference, from Partners for Peace, to full membership as the policy, which I felt was needed to make the SNP’s defence policy look sensible, not idealistic, and hence for Indy which was my concern, Independent Scotland look like a defensible country, not a weak neutral country like Belgium was ar the beginning of the Second World War. That in a particular thread, but also others, in the dear old Guardian, with ironically, Sevvie being the catalyst.

      Sillars is not interested in constructive criticism, whereas I think MacAskill is. And perhaps those who post on Wings with their – our – criticisms of the SNP, or elsewhere, should be judged NOT on the fact we are making criticisms, but on whether they could lead to changes which improve the drive for Independence, and perhaps also the SNP if acted upon. Forums are our public meeting place, and our platform.

    116. Hamish100 says:

      Ahundredidiot – what if brigade

      Recognise the agitators in our ranks are not pro Scotland but pro them

    117. Robert Peffers says:

      @Helena Brown says: 6 October, 2017 at 12:47 pm:

      ” … unfortunately I have an arthritic dog nowadays who cannot be left for long and most take place in either Edinburgh or Glasgow.”

      In my case the wee dog is fine – it’s the wee dog’s owner that is arthritic and that’s perhaps the least of my troubles.

    118. Petra says:

      What’s with Jim Sillars the man who was once the EU’s greatest advocate? An Independent Scotland should most definitely be a member of the EU, he stressed often. Demanded in fact.

      The man who seemingly wants Scotland to be independent? is once again running Nicola Sturgeon down to the ground and has now taken it a step further by advising the Yes movement to distance itself from her / the SNP altogether. Maybe he could tell us who exactly is going to get Independence for us? He, Jim?

      Who does he support now? Has he reverted back to supporting the Labour Party? The Greens? Does he consider EFTA membership to be preferable to EU membership, as his late wife did? Maybe one of the Unionist supporting journalists, who are clearly USING him, could help clarify this for us

      Whatever the case something stinks to high heaven. Why is he behaving like this? Is he just a jealous wee has-been driven by resentment and an obsession for the limelight, lost the plot or what?

      His son-in-law, Craig of the Pretenders, sings of many Scots going cap in hand to Westminster. Sillars seems to be hell bent on seeing that continue. His late wife Margo spoke often of the secret services infiltrating the SNP / yes movement. No need for them now it would seem with Sillars doing his utmost to destroy our chances of Independence in the most public of ways.

      I’m all for Freedom of Speech but reckon it’s high time that Jim just SHUT UP. If for no other reason than to preserve what’s left of his once half decent reputation.

    119. Davosa says:

      How many on here support The National and Sunday Herald ? Whilst not perfect at least they try along with WoS and the likes of Newsnet to balance things out.

    120. Moonlight says:

      Well, there might be more to it than just the Spanish constitution.
      Catalunya sits astride one of the two viable routes for Spanish exports. Trains of trucks pour up from Valencia on the infamous N340. Much of the fresh food we enjoy comes up that route and the Autovia del Meditaraneo
      On the other side, to the west, the Basques sit astride the other export route, through their beloved Donostia and Oran.
      It doesn’t need much imagination to see how the whole economy could be threatened by any disruption to these routes. Self interest always rules.
      Both these routes, especially the western one, run by dint of amazing engineering through very difficult country. No matter how powerful an army is deployed, both these roads are difficult to defend in their entirity. So other than the obvious political drivers and the economic importance of both regions, they hold the key to all Spanish exports.
      Of course, we might have difficulty sending them our seafood, but May is already trying to kill our export market there.

      The Catalans and the Basques have a common strength and that is their languages, used by most in the street but also used in education. The Scots, whether we like it or not only have a mixture of dialects and a very minority language which few of the unininitiated can read, let alone pronounce. That is a legacy of our occupier, but it is fact. To clearly and precisely communicate with each other we have to use the language of the occupier which is held in common. To be able to speak Catalan or Euscadi is a huge unifying factor, which deliberatly excludes outsiders, without any effort.

      As for the banks running out of Catalunya, bear in mind that both Santander and BBVA are Basque based banks and they have shown no sign of decamping through all the ETA troubles.

      The lesson to learn from the Catalans is that the only issue is independence. Whether an independent government will be right of centre, left of centre, somewhere in the middle or something else will be entirely according to the democratic process of the Scottish people. Without independence the shade of future policy is somewhere deep in dreamland.

      Really is time to wise up.

    121. J Geddes. says:

      I think we should look at the facts Scotland and England are not united, it is our Parliaments which are in a union due to a treaty signed by quill pens in the early eighteenth century by Scottish bankrupt Lords.
      In 1999 the Scottish people voted in a Scottish Parliament and in accordance with our claim of rights it should be proper Parliament.What we need is for our government to do what it did in the eighteenth century as in as out and sign us out.We do not need udi as we are a sovereign country.

    122. yesindyref2 says:

      The SH is a weird one. First it was pro-indy, even before it came out publicly. Then it became I think quite anti-Indy, now I think it’s just said “sod it, let’s criticise the lot of them”. Which is a good stance, and one the Herald should and at times does, follow.

      Actually many of us btl posters worked our butts off during Indy Ref 1 to do preciesly that, distance the idea of Indy from the SNP. All the MSM had to do at the time was find a criticism of the SNP, and imply or even specifically write, that that was against Indy as well.

      And YES Scotland was also tied up in a lot of people’s minds with the SNP, partly because it was such a shambles the SNP had to take over both fnancially and in management. YES 2 can’t be the same.

      But any official YES has to be distant not just from the SNP, but also Rise and even the Greems. Sillars campaigned to try to get SNP voters to “give their wasted votes to RISE”. Why he’s not chucked out of the SNP I don’t know, not for criticsms of the SNP or its leadership, but for actively campaigning against them.

    123. Robert Louis says:

      This article nails it. It is about INDEPENDENCE, period.

      We could have a movement for independence, but their is no momentum until such times as we know IF a referendum will be called by the Scottish Government. We all thought it was happening some months ago, and people donated half a million pounds in a few weeks to the SNP specifically to help fight the referendum, then suddenly, the SNP put it on hold – despite actually winning the general election with more seats than ALL the other parties combined.

      Just get on with it. If the threat of Scotland getting dragged out the EU completely against he clearly expressed wishes of Scotland cannot get the Scot Gov to call the referendum, then nothing will, and we might as well all just admit it isn’t going to happen. All I hear is procrastination after procrastination. It is frankly tedious.

      The indy movement was vigorous and intact after the referendum, but years of dithering and procrastination has seen people drift away.

      Their will never be a better opportunity. By dithering, all the SNP are doing is giving the unionists time to plan how they will undermine the campaign. If Theresa May resigns, then for goodness sake seize the initiative and call the referendum that day.

      Their are no prizes for being nice as far as Westminster is concerned. Westminster doesn’t do ‘compromise’. It is a fight, and always will be.

    124. Scotspine says:


      I may be accused of belonging to the tinfoil hat brigade, but Sillars in my opinion, seems to “be wheeled out” with regular monotony at potentially strategic times to hurt, or try to hurt the SNP and thus Indy.

      Infiltrating placemen, huh?

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks for that clarification of a large part of Spain’s exports. From that point of view it’s very clear that Spain should actually want an Independent Catalonia to remain in the EU, to protect its trade routes through a partner member state, as the rest of the EU countries do.

      And from that point of view the EU is as thick as two short Barrosos laid end to end. It should serve the interests of its member – Spain – by either remaining silent, or stating that the continutation of the right of free movement through Catalonia would be its priority in the event of Catalonia becoming, somehow, independent. As it is, it’s antagonised a large section of Cataln society.

    126. Ruby says:

      Vestas says:
      6 October, 2017 at 12:55 pm
      If Scotland had been under the control of a dictator who banned the language and murdered over 50,000 civilians in peacetime less than 50 years ago I think you’d see more of a turnout ?

      The SNP appears deeply uncomfortable with the idea of rallies which obviously doesn’t help.

      Ruby replies

      I agree with that. I don’t think you can compare Scotland to Catalonia.
      I would guess support for Independence in Catalonia among the older generation would be the total opposite to what it is in Scotland. ie Older generation 100% in favour of independence.

      The other thing which I posted in an earlier article is that people in Spain and I imagine it will be the same thing in Catalonia is that they spend more time outdoors than people in Scotland. The streets are always busy, people drink outdoors and people go for a walk around town. People eat out more than people in Scotland. When people play petanque (bowls) they do that in the town/village square not hidden away in a private bowling clubs.

      People are used to being out on the streets whereas in Scotland (and the RUK) are more reserved/not so used to being out in the streets.

      Not sure if it still happens in Spain but there used to be a lot of flirting (sexual harassment ) going on in the streets see Piropos. Gaupa was a Spanish word I heard really a lot when I was in Spain. 😉

    127. Brian Powell says:

      On the National and the Sunday Herald: they can fall into the divisive trap. They support Independence but often upping one section of Yes at the expense of anther. Often having Yes commentators criticising the SNP.

      If any Yes section has a point it would essential to put it in the context of the UK Gov.

      Otherwise it feeds the BritNat agenda, and looks like my views better than yours, look at me.

    128. Dr Jim says:

      How do you be a government and a protest party at the same time
      How do you wear the trappings of political correctness and carry out those functions to look like a credible person to the world while at the same time walking out of a fire with three dragons on your shoulder and waving a Saltire

      This marching noisily and protesting is a job for the people not the government and we the people aren’t doing a great job of it
      But there’s a reason for that and it’s this…..Who’s daein it, aw sumdy else a hink
      well they better dae a good job o it

      Scotland’s got to used to being looked after and then moaning about not being looked after right and we’ve become lazy, don’t take it personally, not all of us

      Scots don’t act, they react, and Stu’s article just proved it

    129. Brian Powell says:

      Every point should be; UK/Westminster you’re done and we’re coming to take your power away from you because you are not competent to run our country.

    130. Dr Jim says:

      I posted earlier about Catalonia’s advantage over Scotland
      They don’t have a mental sectarianism problem which would see one side rather die than join the other side for equality
      because the one side doesn’t want equality, it wants the other sides death

    131. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rob Outram says: 6 October, 2017 at 1:16 pm:

      ” … If we had a mainstream newspaper and/or TV station that reported the truths that WoS does we’d double the number of people on the streets and in the voting booths.”

      Nah! I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again. Anyone who wants to know what is going on in any of the UK parliaments or what the newspapers are saying can do so just as easily as watching, “Strictly come Baking”, or , “Coronation Square”, at the push of a button:




      Holyrood Chamber & Committees:-

      As for news try :-

      Not only that but there are hundreds of TV and Radio channels on a smart TV yet I wonder if yer average numptie ever tries other than the BBC, STV or BBC News channels.

      All you need to know about the average Scot is the claimed most popular viewing programmes are Coronation Square, Strictly come oan, the Apprentice and the Great British whatsit, East Upenders and not necessarily in that order.

    132. Petra says:

      @ Davosa at 4:52pm ….. “National and Sunday Herald.”

      I buy both Davosa as I come across data not to be found in any other newspaper or even on here in fact. They also afford a platform for some excellent, extremely knowledgable Independence supporters, such as Kerevan and MacIntryre Kemp, who aren’t given the time of day elsewhere. No point in complaining about the biased Unionist supporting MSM being the greatest challenge to achieving our Independence, whilst not supporting Independence supporting newspapers, IMO: One daily and one Sunday.


      “The enemies of achievement”? More than just Jim Sillars now, I see.

    133. colin alexander says:

      “the SNP – wants nothing to do with them.”

      Thank you, Stu. I’ve pointed out repeatedly that the SNP campaign for the SNP to be the administrators of Westminster devolution.

      They stopped campaigning for independence in 2014. They promised to campaign for independence from Summer 2016 onwards. It didn’t happen.

      They promised an indyref ( which is not the same as promoting indy ). Then cancelled any announcement on it for another year.

      And in the most recent election campaign, the 2017 General Election, the SNP’s campaign slogan was:

      “Keep Scotland Strong at Westminster”.

      Maybe we should be holding a rally for:

      “Keep Scotland under Westminster control”

      (As long as it’s the SNP doing the administration). While Westminster decides what the so-called Scottish Govt administers.

      Maybe then we would see Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP politicians turn out in force to support that rally.

      And please don’t insult people’s intelligence with repeating tripe about Nicola Sturgeon cannot support things selectively because she is Queen of all the Scottish people.

      She addressed a Glasgow Gay Pride event in 2017.

      The SNP don’t promote and don’t support independence, because the SNP decided the best strategy to stay in power is play down independence, but string along independence supporters with talk of another indyref.

      Play both sides. The best devolutionists for the Unionists. Independists to the pro-independence movement.

      The SNP are like a vegetarian that always has porridge for breakfast as they are pro-vegetarian. Then has Steak pie for lunch and lamb stew for tea, as they must respect the majority of Scots who are not yet vegeterians, as it wouldn’t be right for them to be fully vegetarian or encourage others to become fully vegetarian until AFTER the majority already say they want to be vegetarians too.

      If we look at Catalonia and the leadership of the Catalonian government and Catalonian independence campaign and compare it to the SNP Scottish Govt and SNP, it really brings it home how absolutely abysmal the Scottish Govt and the SNP have been in promoting independence and defending Scottish sovereignty.

      The Catalonians get the Jackboot from the Spanish Govt.

      We get jack shit from the Scottish Govt, who are too busy with administering Westminster devolution for the Unionists and UK Govt.

    134. Ruby says:

      Ken500 says:
      6 October, 2017 at 3:48 pm
      Did the elderly in Scotland not remember Thatcher? Scared out of their wits.

      Ruby replies

      You can’t compare Thatcher awful as she was to Franco’s fascists.

      Here’s a story of a man who spent 30 years hiding

      There are lots of stories like this one.

    135. john says:

      Let the people sing

    136. Ken500 says:

      Is there any analysis of the vote in Catalonia. Where is it? Seems to be kept under wraps. No analyses details have been realised. Apart from 2.3Million out of 5.5Million electorate on a low turnout. 7.5Million pop. 1/2Million not allowed to vote? Why? The non Independence supporters boycotted the vote. Viewing it as illegal. Democracy?

      The Nationalist/Communists killed 80,000 people. The Facists killed 110,000 people. Hitler gave the Facists air power. Planes. Early use of air power. The Germans are implicated in the number killed in the Spanish Civil War. The Spanish were 50/50? The ones who supporters Franco and the ones that didn’t. 70,000 people a year were killed. Many Spanish people are quite conservative. Traditional. Church, state and family. The King (father) separated Church from State. Supported democracy. Majority Catholic. In many areas everything closes down on Sunday, except in tourist areas. There are poorer areas of rural areas. People work the land. EU subsidies. Agriculture, tourism, ceramics, education, sports.

      Spain stayed out of the 1/11WW. Hitler could not stand Franco. Franco had vision of restoring overseas territories. Hitler did not cooperated. Thought Franco was a jumped up little upstart.

    137. AlbertaScot says:

      Maybe I’m getting a little ahead of my skiis here, but does anybody under the age of, say, 65 know who the hell Jim Sillars actually is.

      Or why he is somehow relevant.

      Dopey old guy who has been out of the loop for a decade or two says something is not news.

      It’s like a Gordon Brown speech. Except worse.

    138. Bob Mack says:

      Too many people wanting to fill the “blank page” of an independent Scotland before we have even started.

      Win first argue later seems a good maxim.

    139. yesindyref2 says:

      In my new/old comfortable capacity as non-aligned, the Hope over Fear is organised by Sheridan and the SNP can’t afford to be closely associated with that.

      Specifically with the march last June (?), and the GE, I think the SNP thought the best thing for them to do for Indy was concentrate on the day job and let Indy do its own thing, something which many of us said in ways back in 2012, and I reluctantly agree with even now. Since then support for Indy which did really seem to be dropping, has risen again and hopefully is on a steady upwards trend.

      I think people were sick of having it in their face, apparently from their Government according to the misinforming MSM, so in that respect YES can do whatever it wants, the SNP can’t. Once the terms of Brexit are known is a vastly different circumstance.

    140. Ken500 says:

      How many people died an early death in Scotland because of Thatcher. Or had to migrate. Westminster economics policy depopulated Scotland. The poverty was appallingly unnecessary. Illegally kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. She should have been put in jail. If there was any justice. Blair and Brown should have been put in jail. Along with the rest of the unionist crooks at Westminster. Breaking the Law with impunity.

    141. Alex Clark says:

      The whole point of having Independence is having a Government of the peoples choosing and in the UK the electorate of Scotland very rarely get that.

      So policies that suit the rUK and not necessarily Scotland are foisted upon us. I totally agree with Macart that it’s about the right to make our own choices through those we elect to represent us and not specifically what those choices are to be. The parties will put those choices before us in their manifestos before we elect them.

      If you look honestly at the SNP’s 10 years in power you will see that crime has halved, educational attainment in up and the SNHS is very clearly way out in front in comparison with the rUK when it comes to performance in almost all areas that are measured.

      Now obviously, education, policing and the NHS are devolved matters and no matter what the Unionist parties or their media say the SNP have clearly done a good job in those areas while in power as well as battling 8 years of Tory and Labour austerity.

      We need our Independence to allow our Scottish Government to make all our choices and with all the powers of a normal country.

      I am absolutely certain that Scotland would prosper, the people would be happier and equality far less of an issue with the poorest and the disabled being looked after as they should and is what any decent country and Government would want done.

      I don’t believe in Unicorns or magic money trees but this is not a fantasy of mine at least in my opinion. It should be our reality, so we must focus only on Independence and work together towards that goal.

      Everything else is irrelevant unless we can achieve that goal first.

    142. John says:

      The difference is the Catalonian people don’t have bigots and the O.O. union supporting nutters

    143. Tatu3 says:

      Carles Puigdemont is very out there in his belief that Catalonia should be independent. He doesn’t seem too worried about being a loud Yes

    144. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim at 5:27pm ….. “How do you be a Government and a protest party at the same time?”

      Spot on Dr Jim. Excellent post and thanks for bringing some much needed basic commonsense to the site.


      @ Moonlight at 5:07pm ….. “Export routes.”

      Really interesting post Moonlight. Thanks for that.


      @ Scotspine at 5:13pm ….. “Infiltrating placemen, huh?”

      Nothing would surprise me Scotspine and I’m actually thinking of buying myself a wee tinfoil hat, lol.

    145. I think the Scottish Cringe has worked its way even into Independence supporters,


      you can`t just want Independence because of a love of Scotland it has to be reasoned through social improvement or financial gain,

      years of sneering BBC/MSM Scot haters have made our people embarrassed to show their love of country and ancestry,

      whereas the Catalan is all about their separate unique culture,

      easy way to tell if you have caught the cringe is , `what is your opinion of Braveheart,

      if you dislike or hate it you have the cringe.

    146. Ken500 says:

      The SNP popliticans can’t mount a Referendum campaign. Until the date is set and Holyrood gets involved. Two hats. They govern for all the people. Individuals can get involved. It is less possible for the Cabinet. The government code of conduct. They sign up to. (The Privy council?). When the date is set with the mandate from the voters. They can. They become involved in the campaign. Technically until the result is declared. There was quite a long campaign last time.Maybe it will be shorter next time. People got a bit weary.

    147. Ruby says:

      Ken500 says:
      6 October, 2017 at 5:53 pm
      The Germans are implicated in the number killed in the Spanish Civil War.

      Ruby replies
      Guernica by Picasso
      The painting was created in response to the bombing of Guernica, a Basque Country village in northern Spain, by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italian warplanes at the request of the Spanish Nationalists.

      While Picasso was living in Nazi-occupied Paris during World War II, one German officer allegedly asked him, upon seeing a photo of Guernica in his apartment, “Did you do that?” Picasso responded, “No, you did.”

    148. Tatu3 says:

      Carles Puigdemont governs all of Catalonia and is very vociferous for independence. Personally I cannot understand why Nicola Sturgeon can’t govern Scotland and come out strongly for independence too

    149. Petra says:

      “If we look at Catalonia, it’s leadership and the SNP it really brings it home to us.”

      It brings it home to us right enough. The Catalonians, unfortunately, won’t see Independence for years to come, unlike Scotland.

    150. David McDowell says:


      “Is there any analysis of the vote in Catalonia. Where is it? Seems to be kept under wraps.”

    151. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 6 October, 2017 at 4:40 pm:

      “…this is a political party for heaven’s sake, and the dedicated original members have given many hours, days, over the years, to support their party through thick and thin.”

      Try decades and several of them at that, yesindyref2.

      ” … But for the new members that route is NOT really open, they just don’t know people, haven’t that bond, that trust from other members they’ve campaigned alongside for the good of the party.”

      Nah! Not true. I’ve made my presence felt in more than one organization from the Electrical Trade Union, that was once being over run by Communists, to the SNP that had its battles with far left and far right and several would be military types to sort out.

      Not forgetting Community Councils and even Mental Health organisations all with close knit groups with vested interests that needed a sair dunt.

      You sit and listen until you get the lie of the land and then you turn up with a few like minded individuals, move a motion or an amendment, get it seconded and make it stick. It takes a bit of courage but isn’t really hard and it was probably the way the clique that was there before you got to be running the meetings.

      Thing is you must be organised and then be careful to not become the same kind of clique that you got shot off. Believe me it is all too easy to become such a clique

      “The problem for the SNP is that without having adapted to that massive influx of 100,000 new unkown members with a variety of massive skills and enthusiam, it’s wasted.”

      Nah! All that demonstrates is that influx of 100,000 new members were NOT organized among themselves to make their presence felt. Here’s a thought for you – What if Alex Salmond had not had the courage of his convictions when he was expelled from the party and had wandered off into the yonder?

      He didn’t wander off and he sure as hell made his presence felt. I do believe oor Alex is far from finished yet. I think he still has lots to offer and lots to still do.

      “Now, this IS something that the SNP can do something about, but because the new memebrs themselves have no influence at all, it’s down to the original 25,500 members to push for this, to enable it”

      Nope! It is not up to the existing members to do any such thing. I’ll put that another way for you – if the newcomers do not have the courage of their convictions then the enabling them by the old guard will be a total waste of time.

      If you want change then it is up to you to make it happen. What is more if there are old members who favour change it is up to them to make it happen – not to attempt to get others to do it for them.

      All branches are the same in that respect – your branch gets the leadership it deserves. You either make things happen or you go along with how things are. There really is no middle way.

      In point of fact this is quite likely how both the Labour and Tory parties have slowly deteriorated. Have a look at any photos of Tory or Labour party meetings. The Tory conference was mainly filled by blue rinsed females and bald headed males not exactly in their prime.

      All parties must rely upon new blood but if the new blood doesn’t make its presence felt then they are no better than sheep following the old leadership.

      What you have been describing is 100,000 new members all waiting for someone else to make changes but all sitting complaining that someone should do something. Someone has to set the ball rolling and it won’t be the existing old members for if they had really wanted change the would have already done so.

    152. David McDowell says:

      “Is there any analysis of the vote in Catalonia. Where is it? Seems to be kept under wraps.”

      Analysis in words:

    153. ScottieDog says:

      Ref Jim Sillars,
      During the 2014 referendum campaign I was very much aligned with Jim sillars’ views on independence, most notably on currency although he took quite a flexible pragmatic approach back then. His anti-EU side wasn’t all that apparent to me at the time. It came across when I heard him speak that there were lots of options on the table regards in/out, EFTA etc.
      In short I was impressed by the man.

      Sadly his approach is one the Indy movement doesn’t need and I just wonder if he knows what he’s doing. I fully expected ‘I told you so’ after the Catalonia violence but now his fracking views crop up instead. I’m in no doubt we will hear more from sillars on the EU. Interestingly his take on indyref2 timing seems to be shared by some in the SNP – post 2021.

      Anyway he’s blown a gasket over fracking. And the Mail! Jesus wept! The return on investment alone for fracking is poor and reason enough not to do it. Another Ponzi scheme.

    154. Ruby says:
      Pau Casals
      One of the greatest cellist of all times.

      His story is very interesting. Pau Casals known in English as Pablo Casals (for some strange reason)

      ‘Casals had been an ardent supporter of the Second Spanish Republic at a time of intense political conflict, and had fled Barcelona to avoid execution by the Nationalist Army. He settled in Prades, a small French town only one hour away from the Spanish border and suspended his professional career until 1950.’

      Book entitled
      A Cellist in Exile-Pablo Casals and the Cold War By Pedro Reina Pérez

    155. colin alexander says:

      @ Ken500, who said: “They govern for all the people. Individuals can get involved. It is less possible for the Cabinet. The government code of conduct. They sign up to.”

      Please show us the bit of the Ministerial Code of Conduct that says SNP politicians cannot personally support independence campaigns because they are part of the Scottish Govt – unless it’s somehow made official.

      They cannot use Govt resources to do it. They cannot do it acting in a ministerial capacity. But there is nothing to stop MSPs supporting independence whether backbench MSPs or members of the Cabinet, as long as they do it as individuals, not as Cabinet duties.

      So, until someone proves otherwise, I politely suggest you are very mistaken.

    156. Colin Dunn says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      “It is 2025 and Scotland is independent. A massive oil find and some of our Islands decide to go it alone. How would our contributors feel about that?”

      If that is their democratic choice, and they really want to break away from the rest of Scotland, I have no problems with that at all.

    157. mike d says:

      John at 6.02pm. “Catalonia dont have bigots,and Orange order supporting nutters “.
      You got that right john.

    158. Cactus says:

      @ the Beautiful Si People of Catalonia ~

      Come and join us! Bring your cheer! We’ve got space.

      We have to try to find new creative ways to help each other out.

      (see the last comment from Joan of Catalonia on homage:)

      1,000,000 fine people should do the trick, we’ll return the favour.

      I N D E P E N D E N C E

      D E M O C R A C Y

      F R E E D O M

      T R U S T

      S C O T L A N D

      Have a groovy weekend gig Nicola 🙂

    159. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Scotland’s got to used to being looked after and then moaning about not being looked after right and we’ve become lazy, don’t take it personally, not all of us”

      Capitalism, Culture, Agency: Dependency versus Postcolonial Theory

      This article reads dependency alongside and against postcolonial theory in an attempt to reinvigorate and re-validate some of the insights of the former, while at the same time supporting the latter’s current ascendancy in the field of Third World politics. It is argued that although dependency and postcolonial theory share some common territory–a suspicion of Western liberal modernity, a critical–historical analysis–they tend to have irreconcilable differences that show up their respective strengths and vulnerabilities. Dependency chooses a structuralist and socioeconomic perspective, seeing imperialism and development as tied to the unfolding of capitalism, whereas postcolonial theory favours a post-structuralist and cultural perspective, linking imperialism and agency to discourse and the politics of representation. The article stages a mutual critique of them, based on the work of Frank, Cardoso & Faletto, Said, Spivak and Bhabha.

      Dependency Theory

      N.B. nations and nationalisms emerged out of pre-existing ‘ethnic’ cultures.

      Blood quantum: the Colonial tool of racial superiority and economic dependency Native communities can’t let go of

    160. Ken500 says:

      Exactly who voted for Sillars. Was he not Labour for a while? It figures. Margo would have been astounded.

    161. Petra says:

      @ Tatu3 at 6:19pm …… “Personally I cannot understand why Nicola Sturgeon can’t govern Scotland and come out strongly for independence too.”

      God give me strength. I’ve heard it all now.

    162. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi ScottieDog

      For fear of being accused of living under a bridge again, I’m gonna have to respect you democratic right to be wrong on fracing.

      I’m an old pumper from the Alberta Oil Patch and I pretty well sweat frac fluid. I guess I was just born that way.

      But you’re right on the money with Sillars.

      Has the Jimmer lost the plot? Abso-damn-lootley.

      I always thought once you get out of politics you’re done like a dinner.

      He just keeps popping up like a fair ground whack-a-mole.

    163. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Well said Stu.

      Macart should put your post on some leaflets for yes 2.

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @colin alexander says: 6 October, 2017 at 6:48 pm:

      “So, until someone proves otherwise, I politely suggest you are very mistaken.”

      When are you going to stop posting pish!

      I already gave you proof – you are just far too dim to understand it.

      There is a legal requirement upon elected MPs and MSPs to swear an oath of allegiance to the monarch or make, instead, a solemn affirmation.

      The Speaker’s ruling in May 1997 was that Members who do not swear the oath are not entitled to use the facilities of the House. Thus it precludes those members who refuse the oath or affirm their allegiance to the monarch from taking their seats in parliament. As we see with the elected Sein Fein members who do not swear or affirm and thus do not participate in the Westminster parliament.

      Take that to its logical conclusion, Colin. If you take the oath or affirm your allegiance then you are subject to the UK Official Secrets Act and could still, believe it or not, be sent to the tower of London for at least indefinite incarceration, (subject to Her Majesty’s Pleasure), or at worse to capital punishment if you are found NOT sticking by the oath or affirmation.

      Not only that but Nicola Sturgeon is made a member of the Privy Council and that too has its drawbacks. Please, Colin, do a little research before putting fingers to keyboard. You did know, did you not, that Sein Fein members do not sit in the HOC yet never checked out why?

      They refuse to swear allegiance, and who can blame them? So are effectively banned from attending parliament.

      BTW: it doesn’t count if you cross your fingers behind your back. Sheesh!

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      You may be an “old pumper” but what do you really know about the environmental/economic cost/benefit of fracking or it’s physical impacts on the ecosystems? What is your frame of reference, other than the act of extraction itself?

      Stanford-led study assesses the environmental costs and benefits of fracking

      Shallow fracking raises questions for water, new Stanford research shows

      Stanford researchers show fracking’s impact to drinking water sources

      There are other opinions obvs.

    166. Ruby says:

      If it’s true that 46% of voters support independence then there really isn’t that much work to do.

      Anyone notice that The Herald has avoided all the ‘F off’ pictures in their many articles about Theresa May?

    167. Petra says:

      Jim Sillars is now cracking up about the fracking ban. Saying that anyone freezing this winter can blame the SNP. He’s now going to put up a challenge against it.

      We’ve all been freezing for decades in Scotland and that’s down to the greedy energy companies / shareholders and Westminster.

      If we want to make much needed change, in relation to control of energy and the rest, we’ve got to get out of this Union. It looks as though Sillars is doing his absolute utmost to make sure that doesn’t happen.

      What on earth is going on with him? Suffered a severe blow to the head recently?

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers: “You sit and listen until you get the lie of the land and then you turn up with a few like minded individuals, move a motion or an amendment

      Firstly you’ve totally proved a main point of my posting. A way of doing things that totally fits dedicated members like yourself, and is a total misfit for otherwise enthusiastic people, who got up off their backsides and joined the SNP for Indy – probably not the SNP, rules, procedure, boring boring boring, moribund, slow, painful and dead in the wood, dry as a dustbowl, keep the eyelids open with matches, boring agenda with a treasurer’s report and office bearer’s report, and committee report on the state of the lampost at the end of the main street which in any case belongs more to the community council which holds PUBLIC MEETINGS OFTEN BUSY – or the SNP councillor(s) directly. They’re at the meeting preaching to the converted about how active the SNP councillor is and why SNP members should vote SNP. Well, the enws is in the local paper if you really care, and this is f’ing SNP members they’re going on to. No open discussion unless it’s about getting elected.

      Secondly you’ve totally ignored what I’ve previously said, about the attendance at meeting being 15 normally including councillors, secretary, treasure, committee I was on that briefly), the same faces every week with a max of 20 including MP and MSP, with a total membership of well over 300. And that the main thing I was addressing at the time was to try to change things to get a bigger attendance, so how on earth with absolutely no way of chapping thousands of doors and asking “Are you an SNP member” was I supposed to “turn up with a few like minded individuals” out of that over 300 who don’t come to meetings, probably because of a totally boring agenda, who I’ve never met and don’t know the names of (data protection)? I did want to do my own questionnaire, that was rejected out of hand as they were already doing one, asking members if they wanted to put ouot biring leaflets, deliver calendars, man street stalls, or doorknock. As was the national SNP “survey”: “What do you want to do for the SNP? Choose from a) deliver leaflets, b) doorknock …” No wonder people stay away.

      Maybe you have a busy branch, mine was happy with the 400% new member influx to have had as many as 20 turn up, an increase of probably just 10% on before, and no interest in getting more.

      Sorry Robert, you just proved my point, and exactly why for me, it’s far better being out, than in. Others by being passive members at least give numbers, money, and silent support. I’m active, or would want to be, but not putting around stupid blue bin destined leaflets which are never read. It’s not for me, and I’m out.

    169. asklair says:

      It must be independence, independence and independence.

      In the housing market it is location,location and location.

      Independence is greater than any political party.

      The YES movement is greater than any political party.

    170. Breeks says:

      I see two big problems.

      Before my OCD about sovereignty, by chief gripe was always, always, always the media, and the BBC in particular. It was always extraordinarily difficult for YES to sustain any cohesion and build up a head of steam when every aspect of the Independence Referendum was met with caustic wall to wall cynicism and condemnation in the media. The effect was, and still is, pernicious. It very much frames the debate, breaks up momentum, and 2014 it was near fanatical in pursuit of its Unionist agenda; always, always, always pushing the Unionist agenda and narrative.

      In Scotland, if you have a YES rally, IF it makes the headlines at all, you can be sure you won’t hear any more about it until there is another YES rally which may or may not make the headlines. As a structured campaign, it is disjointed, inarticulate, and there is no linear progress or building up of momentum.

      In Catalonia, with its own media, I would not be surprised if every news item of the day was not available to Catalans in easily accessible mainstream broadcast form, not only on the State run National Stations, but on Catalonian stations, and every item can been seen from the Spanish point of view but also the Catalonian point of view.

      Here in Scotland, the media treats every positive story or issue about Scottish Independence as if it was shameful dirty laundry – an irksome imposition on the “real” news cause by those bothersome SNP types. The reality is the media’s attitude towards our democratically elected government is nothing short of scandalous.

      If Scotland had the same choice of broadcast media as Catalonia, the population would tune in to wherever the debate was the most vital, enriching, and educational, and I would guarantee that would not be the BBC.

      The second big problem, and I won’t go into detail again, but you know I’m going to say Sovereignty.

      Get Sovereignty right, and suddenly we are playing the game of IndyRef in God mode. We win. All roads lead to use winning. There is no possibility of defeat. We can take the most circuitous route to get there, but when do get there, we win.

      Yes, I would accept there is a distinct possibility that faced with constitutional defeat especially without democracy, Unionists will undoubtedly cry foul, agitate for civil disruption and perhaps even violence, and of course we should try to avoid that. But look at Catalonia. When they have have placed all of their faith in democracy, and handsomely won their referendum, but yet they find themselves stymied by Constitutional illegalities, which effectively makes Catalonia a ghetto under Spain’s iron fist of sovereignty and constitutional law.

      The Catalans cannot go backwards from their democratic bridgehead, and the Spanish cannot back down from their constitutional hard line. All I see in the weeks and months ahead is more and more stubborn confrontation, violence, anger and frustration. People are going to get hurt.

      My point is the Catalans chose to put their faith in peaceful democracy, just like Scotland too is doing. But also, just like Scotland, they believe that democracy is the sacred ideal which will deliver their ambitions, and is the only battle to be won. Electoral majority!!!

      With Catalonia, I don’t know enough about their constitution to say whether they have some mechanism to legitimise their democracy so their vote can be recognised as an act of sovereignty. My instincts are telling me that’s a job for Superman, or alternatively somebody who works at the UN. If not, the brave Catalans are doomed to throw themselves against Spanish riot shields, and despair that the outside world does nothing to help them.

      I would spare Scotland the same heartbreak. We ARE a nation already. We HAVE constitutional sovereignty. We HAVE legal legitimacy to call our democracy a sovereign decision. We have our own Law. We have our own Education and Health Service. We HAVE our own elected government. We are not creating a new country, we are emancipating an old one. And it is a COMPLETE old country, the Auld Scotland that stood on its own two feet for centuries, though peacetime, heartache, wars and invasions, with our own Constitutional Sovereignty, our known and undisputed(ish) Borders, and over 700 years of constitutional precedence and provenance.

      We are not asking the International Community to recognise the birth of a Nation, but the death of dysfunctional constitutional straight jacket.

      If I was King for a day, I would separate our quest for independence into two complimentary strategies; a constitutional legality strategy which affirms Scottish sovereignty is already there within our grasp, and a political, democratic strategy which both makes the progressive case for an Independent Scotland, but also works twice as hard to ameliorate the Unionist anger that Scotland’s technical Independence is a matter of existing Scots law and jurisprudence, not a political bushwhacking.

      In the bluntest terms, that means we win our Constitutional Sovereignty in a Constitutional Court, but for political expediency we pretend that we haven’t won. We give Unionism a face saving plebiscite and have a vote we cannot lose because every outcome has to compatible with our legal sovereignty. But when we have a referendum or plebiscite ballot, just like Catalonia, the result in Scotland WILL be recognised and endorsed by the international community, because the thorny issue of sovereignty has already been settled in Scotland’s favour.

      It’s not cheating. It’s not a deception. Its not even circumventing democracy. It is simply making safe our inalienable Constitutional Sovereignty, but doing it as the crow flies.

    171. Tinto Chiel says:

      Jim Sillars, through all his incarnations, has always been most loyal to The Jim Sillars Party.

      Margo managed to keep him on the straight and narrow but now he seems a bitter man who has espoused thrawn contrarianism, sadly not against The Union but against the best interests of his own country.

      He’s yesterday’s Man who can’t quite accept it, and the go-to One Trick Pony for Yoon Media.

      I expect we’ll hear much more from him over the coming months.


    172. Liz g says:

      Colin Dunn @ 6.53
      Well said couldn’t agree more
      If our islanders felt they were not being treated properly, and that they could thrive better on their own.
      Then of course the mainland population and absolutely not Holyrood should ever stand in their way.
      Being held with in a system of government that you feel doesn’t serve you is something that we know a bit about.
      And I would never be a part of doing that to others.
      I am also a big advocate of bringing yer government within slapping distance.

      If this is really an issue and not Westminster shit stirring….then mibbi we should put a mechanism in our constitution so they are secure in the fact that they have this option and everyone knows it ?

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      every month not week.

    174. Petra says:

      @ Ruby ….

      Thanks for the interesting posts Ruby. More than anything it’s great to see you’re posting on here again. With the way things are going we need as many genuine Independence supporters on here as is possible now to combat the EVER increasing numbers who obviously (and not so obviously) don’t.

      On a positive note they clearly don’t believe the Davidsons, Dugdales and Mundells of the world when they say that no one in Scotland wants Independence. No threat? Aye right.

    175. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Cam

      My little log cabin in the Rockies is located in a political jurisdiction with a $17 billion oil fund.

      Mostly courtesy the soothing economic benefits of fracing.

      I also get my healthcare paid without an extra fee, don’t get gouged a provincial VAT and the minimum wage is about to go up to 15 bucks an hour.

      And when unemployment hits anywhere over 4% there’s a sh!t storm down at the legislature.

      OK, they’re Canadian dollarettes. But that’s still a pile of money where I come from.

    176. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 19:35,

      I fear that Sillars has picked up from BritLab whatever has infected them. A touch of “if I didna think o’t first, I’m dead agin it”. But then he was a longtime Labour hand once, so maybe that’s just second nature.

      I really do wonder what the old reactionary thinks he’s achieving by repeatedly undermining his own party. He even had a stab at undermining the indyref by a (deliberately?) maladroit intervention mere days before the vote. I really do wonder who exactly is pulling his strings.

      If he had an ounce of honesty, he would quit the SNP and join RISE or UKIP. Not sure which!

    177. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Dunn says: 6 October, 2017 at 6:53 pm:

      “If that is their democratic choice, and they really want to break away from the rest of Scotland, I have no problems with that at all.”

      Oh! Not that idiotic claptrap again?

      Perhaps a wee dose of reality might help you on that really, really daft argument. BTW: there is no actual real movement among islanders to do so. Only a few loons and some rather self interested political numpties.

      Here are the facts in the International Law of the Seas:-

      If an island that lies within the international territory of a larger state and they wish to leave to become independent that that island, or indeed a land locked region, becomes an enclave with very restricted territorial waters.

      It is half way between the main territory and the island or 12 miles maximum otherwise. It applies to both the 12 Mile limit and the main territories continental shelf.

      Just as examples none of Scotland’s main islands would get any oil or gas as none of them have oil fields within what would become their territorial waters at the present time.

      There is another part of the law that guarantee’s such enclaves free passage to the outside World but only by a narrow shipping lane.

      So just why would any of Scotland’s islands vote to become an enclave of Scotland? BTW: Even if the island were to remain part of the independent Kingdom of England it would not entitle them to free trade or access to the mainland. Just what do you imagine would happen to the prices of goods?

      By the way their access to the Scottish fishing grounds would be restricted too.

    178. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks “Its not even circumventing democracy.

      In the only referendum Scotland has had so far, a democratic majority – 55% to 45% – said NO.

    179. Alba46 says:

      O/T Isn’t strange that BBC Alba can transmit a live Guiness Pro 14 rugby match from South Africa but neither BBC or STV can’t show the Scotland football match a couple of miles down the road at Hampden.

      Bloody pathetic

    180. Dr Jim says:

      We don’t deserve Independence, it’s not going to happen just coz it will, we’ve got no right to anything unless we each of us in our own way make it happen

      Some folk will march, some will join the party and help pay for it, some will talk a lot but do nothing, some will actively campaign against Independence if it doesn’t include the right clause they want to see in it

      All of that has a common theme, there is no one citizen led focus, it’s all bits of stuff instead of perhaps a recognisable known campaign leader and not softies like Blair Jenkins or nice though she is Lesley Riddoch, we need someone dynamic but non confrontational who’s Telly savvy
      and they have to be prepared to do it for the cause not the cash

      But will the people get behind whoever it might be
      That is the question

    181. schrodingers cat says:

      the differences between scotland and catalunya are due in many cases to the lack of a balanced media.

      I wondered why the unionists didnt allow even one daily to back indy in 2014. the total absence of any indy supporting media is what highlighted the complete bias in the msm and was directly responsible for the success of places like wos.

      in any normal situation, differences of opinion amongst supporters of any movement are completely normal.

      but we arent in a normal situation, this is what sillers, ric, greens etc fail to understand.

      under an avalanche of britnat propaganda, any attempt to disagree with the mainstream view of indy is jumped on by both sides. in this case jim sillars is given a column in the daily mail and is castigated by yes supporters as being a patsy for contributing to the snpbad britnat propaganda deluge. i think it is fair criticism under the circumstances.

      catalunya has its own tv, radio and daily newspapers, we dont. But does catalunya have any blog sites which come even close to WOS popularity? does anyone? independent news blogs are the future, but it started here.

      thats why the establishment hates WOS but it was they who created the situation whereby it was necessary

    182. Brian Powell says:

      Colin Dunn

      A huge oil fund is found and 10,000 people move to the island and demand independence.

      What we have is a country called Scotland defined over thousands of years by humans and their history with all the evidence of their presence and continuity.

      Perhaps they would be willing to pay for the movement of all the historical and archaeological attachments of the people who made that country.

      Then set up there own NHS, fire and police service.

    183. Ken500 says:

      The Spanish fable courtesy of the corrupt politicians. On a 43% turnout of the electorate 90% voted YES. That is mathematically imposssible of the whole electorate. Pull the other one. When opposition supporters boycotted the vote. Voters from abroad. Small number but what’s that about? Who are the 1/2Million residents who do not get a vote? Total manipulation by lying politicians living on people’s misery.If want to have a vote at least do it fairly and properly. Fantasy land. Up to 53% did not turn out to vote. A fail which will come back to haunt them. The Catalonia politicans embezzle and defraud public money. Abuse their powers. They have been put in jail in Catalonia for fraud and corruption. Typical Spanish politicians. Their corruption and abuse is documented. At least some of them go to jail. Not enough but a deterrent.

    184. Capella says:

      It’s the media, stupid – the creators of culture – or destroyers in this case. Catalonia has it’s own media to reflect back to them their lived experience. We have nothing. Only the internet.

    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      It must be independence, independence and independence.

      In the housing market it is location,location and location.

      Independence is greater than any political party.

      The YES movement is greater than any political party.

      I might have mentioned that colonial imperialists, such as BritNats, tend to conflate space and place, which leads to their failure to recognise the significance that place has in determining and supporting our identities.

      Towards an anthropological theory of space and place

      This article takes a first step in linking anthropological analyses of the body in space (embodied space), the global/local power relations embedded in space (transnational/translocal space), the role of language and discourse in the transformation of space into place (meaning), and the material and metaphorical importance of architecture and urban design (the built environment). Embodied space, language and discourse, and transnational/translocal spaces are discussed based on a brief review of the literature and then combined with the co-production (social production and social construction) model of space. A preliminary theory of space and place developed for contemporary settings is explored and illustrated with examples drawn from ethnographic studies of gated communities in the United States and the plaza in Latin America.

      Space and Place

      Semiotic Landscapes Language, Image, Space

      About Semiotic Landscapes

      Semiotic Landscapes is an exciting addition to the study of linguistic landscapes.

      It looks at how landscape generates meaning and combines three major areas of scholarly interest each concerned with central dimensions of contemporary life: language and visual discourse, spatial practices, and also the changes bought about by global capitalism and ever increasing mediatization.

      The editors look at: the textual/discursive construction of place; the use of space as a semiotic resource; the extent to which these processes are shaped by wider economic and political re-orderings of post-industrial or advanced capitalism; changing patterns of human mobility and transnational flows of ideas and images.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      “BREAKING: Switzerland would be willing to mediate between Catalonia and Spain; Swiss public broadcaster.”

    187. CameronB Brodie says:

      Is your personal utility your main concern? Got any grandchildren?

    188. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ahundredthidiot @ 15:33,

      That argument, if not merely “taking the Michael”, is an attempt at what is known as reductio ad absurdum. Except you didn’t actually take it to its absurd limit. I’ll give it a try.

      Under current law even though I own some land, I may not own the mineral rights under it. But let’s say that I discover oodles of that lovely black stuff under my (notional) wee allotment, and wanting to cash in, I have a referendum of one (ie. me).

      Oh, whoopee, I’ve just had my referendum and I’ve voted for independence. Effective forthwith. Hooray! Now that oil is mine, all miiiine, I say! Now where’s the contact details of all those oil majors…?

      Since that tale is self-evidently a nonsense (“everyone can have their own country!”), your assumption that any small arbitrarily self-selecting group of people can somehow declare “independence” is a fallacy. There has to be something more than that, and not merely in quantity of supporters either.

      Equally, if you take the opposite extreme, no-one would have any right to independence at all. We should all have to live under one World Government. (Which might or might not be a Good Thing, but that;s another story…)

      A reasonable metric might be recognisable territorial, historical and cultural cohesion that is clearly distinct from others, with obvious sufficient political agreement for autonomy, and with a sufficiency of people who are able and willing to defend their chosen new country.

      On those grounds, Glasgow (say) wouldn’t qualify but Catalonia clearly does. (As, incidentally, do the Kurds.)

      Back in the real world, the supposed “Shetland independence movement” and suchlike were largely disgraceful BritNat divide-and-rule fictions invented and promoted by people like Liar Carmichael and his buddy Tavish Scott in order to “foutre le bordel” (as even polite people these days apparently say).

      So I’m left wondering what you were actually trying to prove by resurrecting that mouldering old zombie…

    189. path says:

      Good discussion

    190. Jimbo says:

      Excellent article, Stu.
      All my thoughts encapsulated.
      I wish I could put them into words the way you do.

    191. Tinto Chiel says:

      “He even had a stab at undermining the indyref by a (deliberately?) maladroit intervention mere days before the vote. I really do wonder who exactly is pulling his strings.”

      Quite so, RJS: that was his “There will be a day of reckoning” threat, if I recall, just the thing to lose a good few undecided in the final furlong.

      Between an anaemic (at best) ex-BBC Blair Jenkins and a wince-making Sillarzilla, many votes were lost in that official Yes campaign.

    192. Ruby says:

      Petra says:
      6 October, 2017 at 7:53 pm
      @ Ruby ….

      Thanks for the interesting posts Ruby. More than anything it’s great to see you’re posting on here again.

      Ruby replies

      Cheers Petra! I haven’t been posting as I don’t have anything fresh to say. I’m kinda waiting for something new to happen.

      Might be interesting to see what effect the situation in Spain has on the independence vote perhaps that has been a bit of a wake-up call for more than just me.

      Could be people are asking if we are also being subjected to abuse but more of the psychological variety rather than the physical abuse the voters in Catalonia were subjected to.

    193. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Cam

      Nope, no grand kids yet. But here’s hoping.

      Because we’ve got some great sports facilities, concert halls, provincial parks, universities and hospitals out here ready and waiting for them.

      Thanx to the fracing gods.

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tinto Chiel
      The MSM was all over that “day of reckoning” and lost a lot of votes I’d say, as did the totally bland and uncharismatic Jenkins. I still think Frankie Boyle would be better …

      Brian Cox might be a choice, though open to “you live in the US”. It’s a big problem, we don’t really have anyone.

    195. Petra says:

      @ Yesindyref2 … “It’s not for me. I’m out.”

      You’ve been telling us this for months now. Maybe hoping that others will follow suit?

      If you find the meetings so boring, rather than complain about them, why not start up one of your own, more scintillating, or follow someone like Dave McEwan Hill’s example? From your earlier account a person with your capabilities shouldn’t find that too difficult to do. “I’d take the personal credit for the SNP changing direction on NATO in 2012 ……..”


      Strange how we get so many on here complaining about the National / Sunday Herald with never a cheap about the numerous Unionist supporting newspapers or complain constantly about Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP with never a cheep about Davidson et al. Strange one on a supposedly pro-Independence site.

    196. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      catalunya has its own tv, radio and daily newspapers, we dont. But does catalunya have any blog sites which come even close to WOS popularity? does anyone? independent news blogs are the future, but it started here.

      Ruby replies

      Could be Wings is responsible for fewer people being out on the streets protesting and trying to find out what is going on.

      Wings is the 21st century protest march!

    197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ruby @ 20:20,

      Know what you mean.

      (Coasting that sometimes feels a little too uncomfortably like drifting.)

      I believe though that the Catalans have also been given the full works from the BT playbook as well as the physical stuff. “No longer in the EU”, “businesses will all move away”, etc., etc.

      The Catalans are also regarded by many Castilians as ("Tractor" - Ed)ous scum but they must never be allowed to depart either. Now where have we encountered that particular paradox before, I wonder…?

    198. Capella says:

      I was in a Glasgow hotel room this morning and decided to sample the TV (I don’t have one at home). The choices were – Homes Under the Hammer (presenters, participants and location all English although BBC Scotland produces it), Victoria Derbyshire (problems with maternity care in NHS England) or some north of England sofa chat (no idea but victim of bullying had a Scottish accent).

      Then came BBC News Live. Every item was London centric.

      Scotland is paying £320 million a year for broadcasting services and receiving absolute drivel.

      We have a vibrant culture and history. We have bright and inventive scientists, writers, musicians, doctors, nurses, carers and even politicians. None of that is reflected in the media pumped out daily.
      Even national institutions e.g. The National Trust for Scotland are stuffed full of people who denigrate our culture and history.

      No wonder Catalonia can enthuse the population with ambition to run their own affairs more effectively. They live in a country where people can talk to each other about relevant issues via their own media.

      Other than WoS and a few other blogs, I struggle to think of any platform where we can discuss anything other than sport, weather or travel.

    199. David McDowell says:

      “Catalan bank moves legal base amid independence turmoil”
      Remember this old classic, the “brass plaque relocation” ploy?
      Presented by the impartial BBC, as always, with a liberal sprinkling of scary buzzwords such as “turmoil” “crisis”, and “threats”.
      Note the familiar glossing over of the fact that not a single Catalan job will be lost as a result of what is merely a legal formality dressed up to sound like an looming economic disaster.
      These same old scare stories are dredged up every single time. They have lost all power to shock or surprise. It should be a simple matter for our politicians to predict and debunk them before they even appear.

    200. Ruby says:

      Marches don’t win independence, of course. But what does?



      Theresa May & her Tory Party

    201. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Brian Cox might be a choice, though open to “you live in the US”. It’s a big problem, we don’t really have anyone.”

      We don’t need Any One, Yesindyref2, we need 51+x%.

      Given our totally corrupt media, any Yes figurehead will be relentlessly monstered in any case.

      But there is safety in inconspicuous but overpowering numbers: “flee laich, flee lang”.

    202. schrodingers cat says:

      leader of yes2

      franky boyle 🙂

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 6 October, 2017 at 7:35 pm:

      “Firstly you’ve totally proved a main point of my posting. A way of doing things that totally fits dedicated members like yourself …”

      Tell you what, yesindyref2, I’m not going to continue with what is obviously a quite pointless exercise – except to point out to you that you have proven my point for me.

      So you claim there were 400 or so new members who were so totally discouraged and dissatisfied with the branch officials and complaining about them that you couldn’t get enough of them together to do something about it. Come-on pull the other one.

      When I joined a particular new branch, (that shall remain nameless), I had only just moved into a new address in a new village in a new area. I knew almost no-one but found the branch had a real right winger as their candidate yet this was a mining community. It was also when the SNP were being called tartan Tories.

      The candidate had big plans to talk to, and I kid you not, the local business people, the priests and ministers and the school teachers and such like. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.

      What was required around that area was to get the local miners, factory workers and engineering workers and so on interested as that was the main electorate. For heaven’s sake the sitting MP was a labour MP and the constituency had never in its history returned anything but Labour since labour came on the political scene.

      Yet I soon found enough dissatisfied branch members to stop that daft idea. O.k. I couldn’t get a change of candidate that close to an election but I could change his intended focus. I’m talking way back in the very early 1960s here. When Labour around these parts didn’t count their votes – they weighed them.

      That candidate had as much chance of getting elected as I had and I wasn’t even standing for election.

    204. yesindyref2 says:

      @ Petra says: “You’ve been telling us this for months now. Maybe hoping that others will follow suit?

      Oh here we go again, the usual paranoid monstering, the ratpack mentalitaet. A reason Wings has lost so many good posters, and new ones are scared to speak up.

    205. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 20:46,

      Yes, any figurehead likely would be ruthlessly monstered. But still worthwhile, I reckon. With a popular and fundamentally decent person it might even backfire.

      Blair Jenkins wasn’t given the treatment, as far as I can recall. Probably though for the very reason that you gave earlier.

    206. Albert Herring says:

      Leader of yes2

      I reckon David Hayman would do an excellent job.

    207. crazycat says:

      @ Ruby at 6.42

      Pau Casals known in English as Pablo Casals (for some strange reason)

      That should be “known in Spanish” – the English equivalent is Paul.

      From Carlos III to Franco, Spanish governments banned the use of Catalan names and enforced the Spanish versions. Establishment sources (such as the BBC) in other countries were happy to follow suit – quite possibly they didn’t know the Catalan name existed and won’t have been motivated to investigate.

    208. budwiser says:

      Good discussion


    209. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Peffers @7.29pm: “…or at worse to capital punishment…”


      Aha! You’ve set a trap haven’t you? Capital punishment can possibly make a return once Westminster no longer has to abide by the protocols of the European Convention of Human Rights. Sly devil. Almost had me.

    210. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Does anyone know if the proposed Glasgow gathering on Monday has now been shifted? If so, could you please let us know here or on OT so that we can alert one another.

      (Confusion is because the anticipated declaration of independence in Catalonia has now been shelved until at least Tuesday…or so they’re saying.)

    211. yesindyref2 says:

      So you claim there were 400 or so new members who were so totally discouraged and dissatisfied with the branch officials and complaining about them that you couldn’t get enough of them together to do something about

      That’s either a quite deliberate lie, or you really are totally illiterate. It’s 300 not 400, and I specifically said I didn’t know who they are, and they didn’t turn up to meetings.

      Your attitude “the SNP is perfect” is rpecisely the problem, not the solution. Even Nicola Sturgeon admist to not being perfect. But without criticism, improvements don’t happen.

      The solution to this is stark staringly obvious. If brances won’t involve new members, the SNP should have a parallel system for people to get involved that doesn’t go through the branch.

      I’m not going to bother with thie any more Robert, it’s your party not mine, but your old guard dog in the manger blikered unreading and unlistening attitude would be all the confimation I’d need that for me, staying in the party would have been a complete and utter waste of my time and energy.

    212. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Blair Jenkins wasn’t given the treatment, as far as I can recall. Probably though for the very reason that you gave earlier.”

      Good point. He turned up in my town the Saturday before the vote, the day we got the blue fire-engine at the Top Cross. He sounded amazingly confident: between Yes pledges and RIC voter registration, he thought it was in the bag. And I, poor fool, believed him.

      Albert H: yes, David Hayman, on reflection, would be a good choice. He gave a magnificent performance in a “Just Say Yes” one-man show in Blantyre Miners’ Welfare the same day as my Blair Jenkins Experience. It was about a Labour hack politician who finally saw the Yes Light and did the Right Thing. Can’t remember the actual title of the play, but he was totally convincing in a tour-de-force performance.

      The day of the vote, while out canvassing, we got the message about 3 p.m. from Yes Central to stop knocking-up (non-sexual) voters and “prepare for a historic evening”. I spent the rest of the day in a First Love/Christmas Eve kind of tingly dwam, convinced I would wake up to a New Scotland the next day.

      My disappointment and my crying family has only hardened my resolve.

      I’m not going through that again.

    213. David Anderson says:

      Jésus Peffers, you are a sanctimonious prick. I know i am not the only one to have that opinion.

    214. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Albert Herring @ 20:59,

      That’s an interesting thought. He would certainly have the presentational skills, I imagine.

      Maybe we should aim for both a male and female spokesperson. One may appeal to some segment of the populace more than another, and it takes at least some of the pressure off any one individual.

      There may well be some very capable person (or persons) in business or the public sector somewhere of whom we currently have no notion. Michelle Thomson had a very good indyref1 out of nowhere, for example.

      I was also very impressed by Jeane Freeman. She really had both a sound grasp of the issues and also the inspirational touch.

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      Jesus, another liar, you quoted me as saying “I’d take the personal credit for the SNP changing direction on NATO in 2012”

      What I said – and the evidence is above in my posting, there’s NO editing function on Wings, was:

      “I’d take SOME personal credit for the SNP changing direction on NATO in 2012″

      8th paragraph, starting “Sorry anout the length”.

      Nobody misrepresents what I say, nobody, It’s bad enough having to justify what you said, not what some ratpackattacker has misrepresented you as saying.

    216. Glamaig says:

      This discussion is actually confirming that what the article says is true.

    217. Petra says:

      @ RJS at 7:56pm ….. “Jim Sillars.”

      I remember him coming out with some threat prior to Indyref1. Was pretty taken aback, annoyed, but just thought it was a genuine slip of the tongue. With all that’s going on now I’m having second thoughts. Someone’s mentioned on here that he’s got his own column in the Daily Mail which I wasn’t aware of. What’s that all about?

      Rise or UKIP? I’ll opt for Rise.


      @ Breeks at 7:42pm …… “Sovereignty.”

      Breeks why go through all of the sovereignty rigmarole, time consuming with the potential of losing – major setback, rather than just cutting to the chase and holding a referendum? I understand that you have a real ‘thing’ about sovereignty, but just don’t get it.

    218. yesindyref2 says:

      Good choice! Glad you agree with me agreeing with myself.

    219. Macart says:

      Worth reiterating the main point of the thread.

      In fighting and division, pointless argument based on party political allegiance, professional/unprofessional snark based on ego. All of it only helps one cause.

      The point of the exercise isn’t a referendum at the nearest opportunity. The point is to win our self determination. The point is independence. A referendum is called on two sets of criteria only:

      1. When you are left with no other choice in the circumstances.
      2. (and preferably) When you can win it.

      The first thing we need to get straight is what we want. A referendum or independence. If the answer is the latter then we better get it straight from here on in that the person next to you online or in a march is a friend on the same journey. You don’t care about where they came from or why they are there. It doesn’t matter if they are Labour for indy, or English for YES. It doesn’t matter if they’ll never vote for the SNP, ONLY that they’ll vote YES when it counts. Enough with jumping down people’s necks because they don’t vote SNP. If they’re not convinced enough to vote SNP after 10 yrs of pretty decent government then its unlikely they ever will. Will they vote YES when it counts? That is what matters now and do you really feel like alienating a friend because of party politics?

      As for those folks who (for whatever reason) will never vote SNP or strongly disagree with them on every policy because… reasons? Deal with it. If you can’t, then at least be empathetic to those fellow YES travelers who are SNP voters and ditch the chip on your shoulder when talking to them. Save your party political vote and opinion for a party political ballot and maybe speak with some diplomacy when you know said friends are about. It takes a long time to gain peoples trust and friendship and only a careless or thoughtless word to lose both.

      Whether you like it or not, the SNP are the only pro indy party in a position in both parliaments to legally and democratically work to give us an opportunity in this current political climate, (no offense intended to our friends in the Green party). If it helps, consider the SNP as a means to an end. No more, no less.

      The job of ‘delivering’ independence though is not that of a political party IMV. No party can or will deliver independence. Only the popular will of the people can do that.

      Bottom line? If people in our movement can’t start working together and start coming at independence using all our views and life experience without attacking each other, then it’s not going to happen any time soon.

      I’d say Self determination, Scottish citizen, YES voter, then whatever party allegiance you feel like in THAT order. Oh, and that latter part preferably when the first three are safely in the can.

      Rant done.

    220. heraldnomore says:

      Merci Macart, tres bien monsieur

    221. Big Phil says:

      Indy Questions:
      Q. Dae ye love yer Mammy?
      would ye do everything for her?
      1.Should you be yer Mammy’s whipping boy?
      2.Should you give yer mammy all yer money?
      3.Should you stay wi yer Mammy forever?
      4.Should yer Mammy gie ye pocket money?
      5.Should yer Mammy tell ye how tae spend yer pocket money?
      6.Should yer Mammy skelp ye for saying “I can do it masel”

      Replace ‘yer Mammy’ wi westminster.
      Indy gives us oor freedom fae Mammy.
      Maybe we just have tae tell the weans that they’re grown ups now. And for you siblings here , stop squabbling we need OOR Family to be as ONE.

    222. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 21:21,

      No worries, dear friend. We are all perhaps getting a little too antsy from sitting around fretting too much. I took a break yesterday evening and watched some escapist TV instead for a change. It can all get a bit too wearying sometimes.

      Like a lot of people, I just wish it was all over and done with by now, so I could get on with other things. But it ain’t, so we just have to stick it out till it is.

      For some that’s about joining a political party and getting into that organisational thing, while for others it’s about being non-aligned. “Horses for courses” and all that. Personally, like you, I feel more like the latter (though I fear sometimes that this is a character flaw! =grin=).

      We have to be able to toss ideas around btl, since it’s (hopefully) all about finding the best way forward.

      At times it feels like shouting into the void, but you never know just what gets picked up by someone somewhere and has a resonance.

      Besides the excellent main articles, that’s what Wings is all about, surely.

      “A virtual pro-indy march”. I kinda like that notion.

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      @Albert Herring
      Excellent choice, David Hayman’s been in so many things over the years, and seems to have passion.

    224. Rock says:

      “They appear to have realised that the only policy of an independence movement should be independence, and everything else is the business of normal politics once that goal is achieved.”

      Rock (10th July – “Lies spring eternal”):

      “It is time the SNP stopped governing and concentrated on independence.

      Before it becomes fully entrenched into the Westminster system.

      The SNP missed a golden opportunity and deserves criticism at the moment.

      Or do we want ‘New SNP’, without principles and only interested in power?

      Instead of preparing for independence, Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Then she got outsmarted by Saint Theresa’s snap general election.

      Admit it or not, the independence cause has suffered a major setback.

      A second independence referendum before Brexit is complete is now highly unlikely.”

    225. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS “At times it feels like shouting into the void, but you never know just what gets picked up by someone somewhere and has a resonance.

      It’s why I keep going. The old rule is that 99% just lurk, whereas it’s the 1% who post, and it’s probably true. And yes, some of my points about the SNP are aimed at those who do seem to have some influence in the SNP, perhaps one who posted above, earlier. If all they get is “sycophantic” well dones, they don’t improve.

      Nobody ain’t not imperfect, not never.

    226. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Awbody loves your mammy, Phil.

    227. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh dear, it’s whinin’ time again down at the ole Sillars ranch… =twang= =string breaks=

    228. Meg merrilees says:

      Ruby @ 6.42:
      I urge you to listen to this recording of the great Casals playing a Catalan folk song. It also contains the speech he gave when he was awarded the UN Peace Medal.

      I think it might make you cry, it is so beautiful. ( ignore the first 10 seconds of advert!)

      Visca Catalunya!!!

    229. Rock says:

      Rock (24th July 2015 – “The unpayable ransom”):

      “Next time there should be no white paper from the Scottish Government.

      Just immediate independence following a Yes vote, followed by a general election within three months where the different parties set out their policies and proposals on how to negotiate the terms with Westminster.

      The “sovereign” people of Scotland can then decide which policies they want to vote for.”

    230. Iain mhor says:

      Aye… Thing is, it’s a lot warmer and drier in Catalonia, guid for having a wee swally and stoatin aboot, or just stoatin aboot in general. All that heat fries the heid as well. The greetin wean is roastit and aw that.

      There’s an old saying that geography shapes the people.
      Scotland has a tendency to be dour and grim. No wonder.
      I’m not marching about for anything and never would, but all kudos to those who do. Is this a bad thing?
      Aye probably, still won’t march though.
      I’m not a paid up member of the Tartan Army either. Doesn’t stop me wanting Scotland to win.
      Yes was beaten by No (apparently) and No didn’t march the streets. Yes I get the fact they didn’t have to, the MSM did the marching for them, and maybe a million Yes marchers would sway waverers. OO marches don’t sway me though and they have catchy tunes.
      Most Yessers I know are very unprepossesing people as well. When it comes to it, they’ll just mark their cross and tea and scones with the family on Sunday. Maybe it’s some Calvanistic streak. Maybe it’s just the geography, but maybe (like the English) Scots are just not that emotional.

      If you find out your douce auld Morningside Auntie was a paid up Communist party member (whit!?) or one was in the International Brigade and yer auld Uncle was a Commando and you never knew any of that til after they died.How do you feel about that?
      Aye, you had them all down as conservative blue rinse unionists did ye?
      So I don’t despair about the lack of a million on the streets. The millions are there.
      Have absolutely no doubt about that whatsoever.

    231. Lenny Hartley says:

      Petra, your a good one at casting aspersions at others. I know for a fact that Indy2ref is a hard working asset to our cause. He was talking about SNP Membership, are you suggesting that unless you are a card carrying member of the SNP then you are not a loyal yessir?
      Then count me out as well as I’m another that is no longer a member of that Party, mainly it has to be said due to local issues (not on Arran) but I’m still as committed to Indy as I was when I first joined the SNP in the seventies.

    232. yesindyref2 says:

      Seeing as how I seem to be under attack for being frank and honest talking about the SNP, I’m probably absoutely the best person to take apart your usual repeated nonsense, weak stich by weak stitch. So get a tinnie, sit back, and enjoy.

      “It is time the SNP stopped governing and concentrated on independence

      The SNP are the Scottish Government and run the SNHS, schools, transport, police and many other things, not just for Independence supporters, or even for those against Indepdence, but those who are undecided or could be converted. The best thing as many of us have said that they could do, is govern Scotland wisely the best they can, to show the undecided as well that Indepenent Scotland could be even better.

      Before it becomes fully entrenched into the Westminster system.

      The SNP ahve been in the Westminster system since the first MP was elected, but not only that, devolution is partial and there are reserved powers, and the only voice on those reserved powers is the 59 MPs that Scotland sends down. Whatever party they belong to, their job is to reprsent their constituency – and Scotland. The SNP also have that responsibility, as do the Labour, Conservative and LibDem MPs.

      The SNP missed a golden opportunity and deserves criticism at the moment.

      No they didn’t, last June of that’s what you’re talking about, we didn’t – and still don’t – even know for sure that the UK is leaving the EU, let alone on what terms.

      Or do we want ‘New SNP’, without principles and only interested in power?

      No we don’t, and t here’s no reason to think that there is any chance of that – yet.

      Instead of preparing for independence, Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Firstly I can’t really see Sturgeon being into animal torture, even a dead one, secondly the “separate deal” will inevitably lead to Independence within years as it would involve a truly huge devolution of currently reserved powers including most forms of taxation, and thirdly it’s still on the table, just not officially replied to.

      Then she got outsmarted by Saint Theresa’s snap general election.

      And look what happened there, it introduced even more uncertainties, and positives for the Indy case, like the DUP bribe and a weak and wobbly UK Gov which could fall apart any time.

      Admit it or not, the independence cause has suffered a major setback.

      Admit it or not, the independence cause, having dropped in the polls to 42% or less, sits at 46% again in the latest, and probably more. SSAS if the upwards straight line graph remains, would have it at about 53% by the end of 2017. I’m sure you’ll agree that’s good news.

      A second independence referendum before Brexit is complete is now highly unlikely.

      A second independence referendum before Brexit is complete is almost certain.

    233. Valerie says:

      Christ on a bike.

      It’s no wonder the movement can’t agree, the Rev puts up an article about priorities and focus, and its like a personal invitation for folk to start bickering.

      It’s FUCKING pathetic. A perfect example of egos right on this thread.

      No such thing, with some brave exceptions, of ideas or suggestions to improve things.

    234. Big Phil says:

      Ach Well @ Valerie, we’re fcuked. as always. Frustration me thinks.

    235. Rock says:


      (To Robert Peffers):

      “That’s either a quite deliberate lie, or you really are totally illiterate.”

      I have been asking Robert Peffers for some time:

      “If you are as clever as you think, why don’t you have your own site to flog your “knowledge”?

      Instead of contaminating every article on someone else’s website with your verbal diarrhoea.

      Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?”

    236. Rock says:


      “A second independence referendum before Brexit is complete is almost certain.”

      I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Westminster and hold an independence referendum once Saint Theresa has refused permission.

      It won’t be too long before we find out who was right.

    237. budwiser says:

      I think we need to look a lot closer to home when it comes to Rallies, Protests and Meetings. After all only about 1% of Wingers attend such outings. (You know who you are)

      So I think we need to be careful who we criticize, if not we will be labelled Hypocrites

    238. John Hermse says:

      Absolutely spot on. I have long thought that there are too many little factions all trying to gain their own little niche Whilst stroking substantial – but paper thin, egos.
      Work together under one bannetand lets get the main job done.

    239. Rock says:


      “it would involve a truly huge devolution of currently reserved powers including most forms of taxation, and thirdly it’s still on the table, just not officially replied to.”

      You haven’t heard of the “power grab” then?

    240. ScottieDog says:

      “A second independence referendum before Brexit is complete is almost certain.”

      I agree. Also by nominating dates now or saying that we will aim for (another) mandate in 2021 gives the opposition and the media a big target to aim for.

    241. Fillofficer says:

      @iain mhor 10.14
      True. Respect man

    242. Petra says:

      Yes2 Leader? What about Craig Murray?


      YesIndyref2 apologies for omitting the word “some”. It wasn’t deliberate. I was ding-donging up and down on my IPad trying to memorise what you had said. However, I doubt it really matters if it was “some” or not. The point I was trying to make was that if you have / had the potential to influence SNP policy in relation to NATO you sound like the kind of guy who could start up his own much more interesting, constructive group.


      @ Macart at 9:32pm ….. “… argument based on party political allegiance…..”

      Excellent post as per usual Macart. Argument based on party political allegiance? I don’t know about anyone else on here but I’d like to say, clarify, that I don’t care if people support the SNP or not. If they are members of the party or not. I don’t care if they’re English for Yes, Rise for Yes, Reds for Yes or whatever. What I can’t stand is people pretending to be pro-Independence whilst using this site to undermine the Independence movement by trying to discredit the SNP. I have a couple of friends / relatives who don’t want Independence at all and that’s their prerogative and I accept (although still try to convert, lol) that too because they’re upfront about it.

    243. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed. There’s a conference this weekend and I expect there’ll be a few murmurs there. Which is good, great [1], but it’s still a case of “now is not the time”.

      [1] The MSM will talk about the SNP being divided. That’s good too! The speed of the hand defeats the eye.

      By the way, last thread I put a little in support of Derek Henry and MMT – basically the SNP would do well if they took an MMT proponent onto their council of economic adivsors, to put another perpsective on things.

    244. Rock says:


      “Admit it or not, the independence cause, having dropped in the polls to 42% or less, sits at 46% again in the latest, and probably more. SSAS if the upwards straight line graph remains, would have it at about 53% by the end of 2017. I’m sure you’ll agree that’s good news.”

      53% by the end of 2017? In less than three months’s time? Definitely good news, but I live in the real world.

      If 53% is the prediction for end of 2017, do you agree that Nicola should announce an independence referendum in January 2018 at the 2017 SNP conference?

      The saying goes “strike when the iron is hot, don’t waste time flogging a dead horse which you know no-one is going to buy”.

    245. budwiser says:


      You don’t half put in some shift on Wings.

      Your name seems to pop up in every second post mate.

      That is some going.

    246. yesindyref2 says:

      No worries, and apologies for going too far.

      Not really, I’m a “behind the scenes” sort of guy, do my research, post it and argue it maybe, and hope someone else picks it up and runs with it. In that NATO thing I’d been ready for Sevvie’s article, guessing it would come, and put a posting in. A few replies, but not a lot of notice until sneekyboy came in and said “make your case dads”. Well, that put me on the spot, I was there all day, Sunday I think it was. Next day, whether that was a part of it or not, or just Sevvie’s article, I think it was Angus Robertson as defence spokesperson announced the new policy for the SNP which would be put to the autumn conference.

      I’m better in writing than by the spoken word, believe it or not!

      Thanks Lenny, see you sometime! Only managed Arran once this year, turning over in the van in July didn’t help 🙂

    247. Rock says:


      “And look what happened there, it introduced even more uncertainties, and positives for the Indy case, like the DUP bribe and a weak and wobbly UK Gov which could fall apart any time.”

      What happened was a fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      And Nicola was left dithering about a second independence referendum, the necessary legislation in the Scottish parliament was put on hold.

    248. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I fully agree with much of Stu’s piece.At the risk of boring folk here are some of the points I made in a letter published in the National earlier this week

      There are two flawed assumptions we have to critically examine and hopefully abandon.

      Some people argue that we need time to get our case in order before we go to another referendum. Our case however is in order. It is that Scotland is a well resourced nation of able people and it should therefore rule itself. That is all and that is our case.

      Has nobody registered the very obvious fact that if we take time to get whatever case some people imagine we need to get in order we give that same time to our opponents. At the moment our opposition is in disarray but a few years from now Brexit (or not) will have happened, things will have settled to the new reality and they will be able – if we give them that time – to turn their whole attention to beating us again. We will by our own hesitance have missed the biggest opportunity we are ever likely to get.

      The other potentially very damaging assumption is that we have to have a whole raft of policy positions in place before we go for independence. No, we do not. It is very important, in fact, that we do not do this.

      All we really have to do is to establish firmly in the minds of our electorate that we are comfortably self supporting, that our present difficulties have much to do with us being trapped in an almost bankrupt UK state and that when independent we will have the revenue, the tools and the ability to choose the policies best suited to our needs.

      The more we have lots of organisations trying to produce a range of different policies for an independent Scotland before we are independent the more division we create needlessly in our ranks. Our enemies will love it. All we should be offering at most is the wide range of very attractive but often very different policies that we will be able to debate and then choose from after we actually become independent.

    249. CameronB Brodie says:

      I might have mentioned the “Cringe” is a debilitating macro-social, psycho-pathological disposition that is largely the result of a colonial culture industry that has been screwing-up our self-conception of ourselves on an industrial scale, for the last 170 years or so.

      Escape From Freedom

      Escape From Freedom Book Review

      Escape from Freedom Summary & Study Guide

    250. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rock “If 53% is the prediction for end of 2017, do you agree that Nicola should announce an independence referendum in January 2018 at the 2017 SNP conference?

      It’s not a prediction as such, it’s if the SSAS trend continues, But that’s gone down as well as up over the last couple of decades. I did try to correlate it with Indy activity, and it’s part of the reason I thought Sturgeon did the right thing dropping talk of Indy Ref 2, and even Independence itself. Support at the moment seems to me to be going up better with silence from the SNP. I think most people are sick of the whole thing, at the moment.

      As for announcing it at the conference I’d reluctantly say no. Not till the terms of Brexit are known, and the formal talks have actually ended. There could be a complete change even in those last couple weeks next September, and the SNP could be left with egg on their faces.

      It’s still a case of patience, even for those of us who;d like to go out and kill vultures rather than waiting for them to die first.

    251. Rock says:


      “No they didn’t, last June of that’s what you’re talking about, we didn’t – and still don’t – even know for sure that the UK is leaving the EU, let alone on what terms.”

      So we kindly waited for the unionists to get their act together?

      We are that stupid aren’t we?

      The UK had voted Leave, Scotland had voted Remain. The unionists were in a total mess.

      Nicola should have seized the opportunity to push for independence straight away and mentally prepared the people for it.

      Only if she had not trained as a lawyer.

    252. frogesque says:

      Occasional poster with no great in-depth knowledge of high Heidi tons of the wider Indy movement.

      All under one banner is a good umbrella, problem is Tommy Sheridan is a bit Marmite. That said, he is a good orator.

      I want Indy so much it hurts at times and, like many, I can rage at the MSM/BBC. We have a good, competent SG who have to work for everyone,. YES and NO equally whatever the brickbats.

      I agree, there has to be more involvement with the wider Indy movement. Marches ( I prefer to call them rallies) are Google but more action is needed outside the Central Belt. Take the fight to the enemy. The Borders need particular attention. Also a YesNess event in Inverness would be great but we need to get into Speyside as well.

      Nowhere should be off limits.

    253. stewartb says:

      Valerie @ 10:17 pm

      You said: “Christ on a bike. It’s no wonder the movement can’t agree, the Rev puts up an article about priorities and focus, and its like a personal invitation for folk to start bickering. It’s FUCKING pathetic. A perfect example of egos right on this thread.”

      Well said, Valerie. Must this movement of ours – closer to re-gaining Scotland’s rightful independence than for hundreds of years – even here in this place viz. WoS, endlessly now have to suffer from too many egos, contrarians, head-of-a-pin ‘argumentatives’ and those that appear to enjoy the ‘sport’ of bickering.

      Are we really all working together/treating each other like we are “living in the early days of a better nation”?

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      What happened was a fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      Yes and no, people couldn’t be bothered turning out, too many elections and referendums for one, and for another people liked Corbyn – I did at the time but still voted SNP. Some didn’t.

      And Nicola was left dithering about a second independence referendum, the necessary legislation in the Scottish parliament was put on hold.

      She didn’t dither, she did a “reset” which means either changing things, or just putting it back to exactly where it was in the first place. She did the latter, she’d always said it would be autumn 2018 / spring 2019, and hasn’t actually changed that. And yes, the neccessary legislation is still there, on hold just to put the date on it.

    255. Stuart Jackson says:

      I remember banging on about UDI, meany moons ago though I vote snp as there is no one else, the rev slapped us down pretty hard. right enough the Catalans don’t have an option, but having the balls helps.maybe that’s a big part of it.
      what you say is a true point, also most people live in a suburban sprawl in Scotland, where as a big chunk of the Catalan population live in Barcelona so maybe easier to get a crowed, plus a lot of people in Scotland just don”t give a shit about anything.
      Also lot of vocal people in the yes moment don’t seem to like nationalists which is a bit weird. maybe Sillers could just leave the snp and get on with rise, oh well never to late. maybe we should hold rallies in supermarket car-parks, just put up posters for “Yes it’s a sale”

    256. Rock says:


      “The best thing as many of us have said that they could do, is govern Scotland wisely the best they can, to show the undecided as well that Indepenent Scotland could be even better.”

      They have already proved themselves extremely capable in government.

      As long as the SNP government protects selfish voters from Westminster policies, Scotland will not have a Yes majority.

      And when Tory policies hit even harder, the SNP goveernment will get the blame.

      Despite the enormous pressure, the Catalonians are pushing for independence.

      In sharp contrast, the timid SNP government failed to push for independence when the unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, was in government in Scotland and the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      Agree or not, Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

    257. Ruby says:

      crazycat says:
      6 October, 2017 at 9:03 pm
      @ Ruby at 6.42

      Pau Casals known in English as Pablo Casals (for some strange reason)

      That should be “known in Spanish” – the English equivalent is Paul.

      Ruby replies

      Are you sure? I have never heard anyone refer to Pablo Picasso as Paul Picasso!

    258. schrodingers cat says:

      dont start agreeing with me, you might start a precident……or a revolution 🙂

    259. colin alexander says:

      If the SNP had gone with Jim Sillar’s currency plan, we may have achieved a majority YES.

      The SNP’s £ Sterling plan – it’s our pound too – was economically reasonable, but incredibly politically naive. Alex / The SNP made the mistake of listening to economists without giving sufficient thought to the political realities of a hostile UK Govt where any dirty trick is acceptable.

      Jim Sillars and the late Margo MacDonald did more for independence than anyone on here. Jim doesn’t always get it right, nobody does. But he’s entitled to state his views the same as anyone else.

      He’s pro-fracking: I’m against it.
      He’s anti-EU: I voted Remain. However, I agree it would be a major error to campaign for indy on the basis of, so we can rejoin the EU.

      An indy campaign should be for indy. Not for joining or doing anything except achieving indy. Thus, the Indy White Paper was a pile of crap. Something to beat us over the head with.

      The plans should have been how to achieve indy, not about what we’ll do after we are indy.

      I’ve said it myself many a time: The SNP prioritise election to devolution govt. That creates a conflict of interest. So, we have the SNP saying and adapting policies, so they can say:

      You can vote still SNP and be opposed to indy. We’re not the ones talking about indy.

      The SNP had the policy re-think. The result: focus on devolution issues. Indyref plans remain shelved. Theresa May never answered NS’ letter about talks for an S30.

      Focusing on indy, as this is the thread, I think Jim is voicing a thought many pro-indy supporters have been thinking since indyref2 was shelved:

      The SNP have gone soft on independence. The SNP lost many more votes because they DIDN’T speak up for independence and so pro-indy supporters no longer see them as a party worth voting for, especially when SNP MP’s have been proven to be just as much a waste of time – and money- as Labour’s feeble 50, even with 6 extra.

      Ah, but it wid have kept the nasty Tories oot. Aye, so the SNP could’ve supported the rabidly ANTI-INDEPENDENCE and PRO-UNION Labour Party with its Red Tories instead.

      And yet people attack the likes of Cat Boyd for choosing to cut out the middlemen
      (the Scottish UK colonial administrators, or SNP for short) and Governor General Sturgeon and voting vote directly for the UK colonial masters – UK Labour ( or the Tories).

      Is Labour any less opposed to Scottish independence and Scottish sovereignty than the Tories? Nicola wanted us to vote for SNP MPs so they could help Labour.

      In return, Scotland would have been shafted just the same by Corbyn Labour – with SNP support- as they are by the Tories.

      If the SNP want support from independists and to achieve independence, then the SNP have to ditch devolution and stand for one policy only:


    260. ronnie anderson says:

      Bring oot the Squirrel’s tae collect aw these Hoare Chestnuts on this thread .

    261. Hamish100 says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      Agree with your post. The argument – the need for us to govern ourselves has not changed. The Tories are in fighting over Brexit, labour leadership also supports Brexit in England and Scotland. The scotch branch are gearing up for their own infighting.
      65% of the Scottish electorate don’t want to be forcibly removed from the EU.

      The £ is weaker our imports are dearer, interest rates are going up. Shipyards on the Clyde and fisherman are going to be shafted soon.
      As I said earlier it is about being prepared. Be aware of 5th columnist’s who will stall and divert our attention from the goal of self determination- but only if we let them.

    262. Big Jick says:

      If the SNP don’t hold indi ref 2 by next October. Independence ain’t happening. Everything no matter how bad becomes normalised to the average Scot after a few months.

      Nicola said she didn’t want to heap more decisions and uncertainty on Scots, so delayed indi ref 2. She missed the point. Scotland voted for certainty, we voted to stay in the Eu. Yet the SNP now seem to suggest that a watered down Brexit is all it takes to placate the remainers.

      How many red lines before the SNP just get on with indy ref 2. I feel that our movement has no purpose as our leaders aren’t leading. The fire has been taken out of our bellies. That’s why it’s awfy quiet. We need to be inspired.

    263. mike cassidy says:

      Oh, look. A fracking earthquake in Alberta.

      I wonder if it created a fracking black hole

    264. CameronB Brodie says:

      The way we regain our sovereignty will shape our formative years as a new nation state. I want to win as much as yourself but I don’t think political expedience is necessarily the correct way to go. Only my opinion but we need the majority on side if you’re looking for an outcome that will be acceptable to moderate Scots who don’t support independence.

    265. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I was going to respond to Colin Alexander but I can’t be bothered except to say that if I support independence I take any problem about the SNP to the SNP. I don’t take two pages in the Daily Record to attack the SNP and actually abuse its leader. Sillars is past the point of no return.

      Still Positive. Did I reply that I am going to Conference?

    266. Roger says:

      Infighting and bickering turns people off and demoralises them.
      They won’t say anything, they’ll just fade away and stop posting and stop voting…

    267. Alex Clark says:

      A bit O/T but a good post just put up on Catalonia by Craig Murray.

    268. CameronB Brodie says:

      I didn’t link that well to your comment, make of it what you can. 🙂

    269. Mike Fenwick says:

      One YES Group and there were many others doing likewise… all being seen, and there are similar events to follow:

    270. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Valerie –

      Well said.

      I’m saying nothing about anyone specific, in here or anywhere else. For me, even Jim Sillars is a part of what’s happening in the same way that yer demented uncle might be sat in the corner talking pish tae himself, but he’s still part of the family, eh?

      All I know is that I want WM Tories out of this country. That’s all. I’m not saying Tories should be banned or interred or that we can’t have our own home-grown Scottish Tories. That’s fine. But WM/Eton fuds having *any* say in how we live our lives is just not on at all – not one wee tiny teensy fucking toty bit. And there’s only one way to ensure that they – and their rose-coloured peers on the benches opposite – finally get their rancid faces out of our business.

      Isn’t that something which can be agreed upon by abody supporting Yes?

    271. Dr Jim says:


      You’re dead right

    272. colin alexander says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      You have a point about the Daily Record, Dave. Why would a pro-indy SNP politician want anything to do with an indy-hating, lying gutterpress rag?

      Have I mentioned enough times yet that Joan McAlpine, SNP MSP, is a columnist for the DR at £400 a time?

      Hope you have a nice time at the conference. Will you be a speaker, I’ll watch for you on the telly? Hope you speak up for independence. I would notice you then, as you’d probably be the only yin.

    273. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Mike Cassidy thats ah fracking good find lol.

    274. Valerie says:

      @ Mike Fenwick 11.44pm

      Thank you for that. I’m following them now, and have shared that vid to my local Yes group. It’s a great wee stunt!

      We are trying to get a stall going for end of month, which has a place of course, but I want them to do little stunts like this, or maybe volunteer in community to try and get in local paper.

    275. ScottieDog says:


      Wrt to MMT and economic advisors. I have been saying this for sometime now. I had been led to believe that joe Stiglitz was on the verge of embracing it but then he comes out with something poles apart from it so I just don’t know.

      I made reference to Bill Mitchell’s appearance at the Labour Party conference fringe event last week so its gradually seeping in and actually the Scottish greens have been talking about it for quite sometime.

      Richard Murphy stands alone and is labelled a maverick and this is why we need a group of progressive economists to stand up and swat down the neoliberal crap. Marianna mazucatto is part of the scot gov economic advisory board and two chapters in her latest book are devoted to MMT.
      I’m fairly sure that a good number of SNP MPs are fairly switched onto it but it’s another thing becoming mainstream policy.

      In short I agree, SIC or YES2, or whatever needs a group (not just one or two) to call out all the misinformation regarding a sovereign nation with a sovereign currency. I emailed phantom power recently to see if they could interview prof Mitchell. There are certainly a growing number of progressive economists who I think would be great to have on board.

    276. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ Valerie 12.02

      Rev Stu is right, Yes need to be seen, now maybe we can’t get the numbers in total as in Catalonia, but as in that video, it doesn’t mean we can’t be effective, and later this month, Yes Groups across Scotland will be repeating “Bridges for Indy!”

    277. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If this place is a microcosm of the Yes movement generally, with all the daft arguments and petty bitchiness and persistent ‘rock&rollin’ from the usual suspects, can someone please answer me this –

      In all of the social gatherings we’ve now had – ‘Friends of Wings’ gigs: attending rallies, marches, demos, picnics and all manner of uncountable smaller events – has there ever been one instance of Wingers falling out publicly?

      I’ve not attended them all and I don’t have eyes in the back of my heid, so I wouldn’t and couldn’t know the answer.

      It’s a genuine question – have there ever been any ‘serious’ arguments between Wingers and/or Yes supporters at any of our getthegithers?

    278. cirsium says:

      Thanks Rev for an interesting post and Wingers for the discussion. Good comments, Capella (8.42), Macart (9.32), Dave McEwan Hill 10.42pm.

      The YES movement needs speakers but I don’t think it needs a Leader as a figure head. We’ve got political direction in the form of the Scottish Government, the MSPs and MPsThe activity and spirit of the various YES groups was a joy to behold. A flat structure gives less of a target for the Corporate Media. What is needed is better coordination so that information and resources flow to and from these groups and also between the groups and the politicians. We also need a central research unit to carry out a “whack-a-mole” function.

      The referendum has to take place prior to March 2019, the cut-off date for the UK’s membership of the EU. I think that a constitutional crisis will arise when the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament refuse to approve the Power Grab legislation and that might start the action.

    279. schrodingers cat says:

      been painting the bathroom, a womens work is never done etc……

      The YES movement needs speakers but I don’t think it needs a Leader as a figure head.

      agree 100%
      that and i doubt we could agree on who should be leader anyway,

      better if we 2.25 million leaders

    280. crazycat says:

      @ Ruby

      What I was trying to convey (not very well, obviously!) is that it is incorrect to say that Casals was “referred to in English as Pablo”.

      His given name was Pau; that’s Catalan.
      The Spanish government insisted that he be called Pablo, the Spanish equivalent.

      Pau “in English” is Paul.
      Pablo “in English” is Paul.

      No-one talks about Paul Picasso or Paul Casals because they are not “referring to them in English”.

      I hope that’s a bit clearer.

    281. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Deep breaths, I think the phrase you are looking for is democratic deficit. 😉

      All we are looking for is a Scottish democracy that represents Scotland’s plurality. Just like any other nation that isn’t bound to England by 300 hundred year old Acts of feckin’ Union. Unitary states running truly pluralistic democracies are pretty much like rocking-horse shit, in the real world. Policies are always shaped to meet the needs of the majority (on paper anyway). That’s what keeps the status quo rockin’.

      Orbit – The Beat Goes On

    282. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Mike

      Hey, it’s only rock and roll but I like it.

    283. Joemcg says:

      It’s strange though that even with the Catalans getting hundreds of thousands on the streets all polling before that vote a week ago showed remarkably similar figures to ours with no sustained majority for yes. Check it for yourselves. Poll upon poll had yes hovering around the 45% mark for years.

    284. Chick McGregor says:

      Hasn’t been mentioned in a while but Brent crude has been sneaking up and is running around $57- $58.

      The Russian/Saudi deals currently on the go are expected to bring about further real cuts and for oil to go through the $60 before the end of the year.

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m pretty sure I got four new WOS readers the other day. Two punters in bar who were talking about nationalism, one a mature student studying psychology. Another mature student who might even find (post-colonial) inspiration in WOS for his on-going history dissertation. Lastly, an EU migrant-worker concerned about being deported as a result of Brexit (she started her family in Scotland). I reassured her there are decent people fighting her corner and she promised to tell all her EU migrant-worker friends to check out WOS.

      Every little helps. 😉

    286. Still Positive says:

      Dave McEwen Hill @ 11.38

      I hope to see you at conference. I will be with SNP West Dunbartonshire.

      Posted same earlier but didn’t come up.

    287. Stoker says:

      Well done, Cameron (1:01pm), excellent news!?

    288. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Mike (again)

      I neglected to mention.

      Just as a crazy coincidence I was up in Fox Creek the other day, fly fishing for Arctic grayling on the Little Smoky River. That’s just what I do.

      And let me tell you, the Big Stone toll road was burning and turning.

      Picker trucks, B-train tankers, lowboys hauling track hoes, oil field floats loaded down with down-hole tubulars, honey wagons and a Trican frac spread on the roll, the Duvernay tight shale play is on fire, baby.

      A lot of guys feeding their families, paying their taxes and making payments on double-wides and big-screen TVs in the Alberta oil patch.

      Maybe even a getaway to Vegas – now that the gunfire has died down.

      Same like they do in the home country oil patch.

      What was that Fox Creek shake and bake again – a 3.5?

      Heck, that’s little more turbulence than a popcorn fart.

    289. Stoker says:

      Should have been Cameron at 1:01am, not pm.

    290. CameronB Brodie says:

      Don’t worry yourself, I’ll talk to anyone. 🙂

    291. Big Phil says:

      Theres a buzz aboot the place. ?????

    292. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem with that is population density, and where fracking takes place.

      Alberta: Population: 4.146 million (1 Oct 2014)
      Area: 661,848 km²

      Scotland: Population: 5.295 million (2011)
      Area: 80,077 km², Density 10 times as high as Alberta

      But: Central Belt: Population 3.5 million
      Area: 10,000 km², Density 56 times as high as Alberta

      And guess where most of the fracking in Scotland would take place – in the quite densely populated Central Belt.

      No thanks.

    293. Ghillie says:

      The Indy Movement of Catalonia IS an inspiration!

      And we have own folk involved and supporting, many I know from the SNP and from English Scots for Independence, so I am hoping there is alot our YES Indy Movement can learn =)

      But I do not envy the Catalans the violence they endure.

      The hysterical and violent reaction of the Spanish government is a barometer of the Catalan success.

      And Catalonia will win their Independence, as will Scotland 🙂

      Yes, of course it will be good when the usual high egos get their act together and focus on the goal.

      Cooperation and respect would be good and definitly beneficial but I am also remembering the different approaches of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.

      The many hues of our Indy Movement are our strength too =)

    294. yesindyref2 says:

      The use of the word “ego” is quite amusing. Speaking for ego, me, myself and I, as soon as a YES vote is in and ego has recovered from a few hangovers, yesindyref2 and PP will be disappearing up the Cobbler for the first time for years, if I’m still capable of walking, followed by Ben Lui and maybe a few other old friends all called Ben for some reason. dads might stick around to keep a beady eye on defence plans and say “You’re going to do WHAT?”, but generally speaking I’ll be taking all my egos and enjoying the whole thing being over, and a new start for Scotland.

      Howsoever, in the spirit of ego-bashing, there is no “i” in Scotland.

    295. PacMan says:

      There are times when every political movement, like individuals, have to re-invent themselves or change direction in light of events and/or certain realities.

      This is part of normal behaviour and is perfectly acceptable. However, there are times when it is not because you need to stick to who you are and what you stand for, as Mhairi Black said in her maiden speech:

      “In politics there are weathercocks and signposts – weathercocks will spin in whatever direction the wind of public opinion may blow them, no matter what principle they may have to compromise.

      “And there are signposts, signposts which stand true and tall and principled.

      “Tony Benn was right when he said the only people worth remembering in politics were signposts.”

      “Weathercocks” in context of the above quote is about public opinion but it also applies to seeing others being successful and trying to emulate them in order to achieve their success. In that way, the success of the Catalans in their independence struggle could be described the same.

      As mentioned by others, the Catalan and Scottish independence movements are completely different for a number of reasons. These are already described but for me the main ones why the Catalan movement has more momentum than us is a more unifying language and culture, severe repression in living memory and lastly they have the weather that allows them to get out and protest and meet on a constant basis.

      We shouldn’t beat ourselves up or try to find some magical formula in the Catalan movement that we can hope to emulate but to keep on our course and find Scottish ideas to the Scottish problems we face. However, that doesn’t mean that we can look to them for inspiration and ideas.

    296. PacMan says:

      Going a bit off topic.

      With the introduction of the plastic tenners, I had read somewhere that the Scottish banks issue Scottish version of notes because it is cheaper than issuing Bank of England notes directly as well as there being legislative difficulties.

      I can’t find the link where I read this and it did seem strange to me that we are supposed to be one British community yet Scottish bank aren’t allowed to use British currency in the same way as banks from other parts of the UK. Does anybody know about this?

    297. Petra says:

      Well my computer crashed immediately after I had answered YesIndyref2, lol, and has taken hours to get up and running again. Maybe an omen or a hint?

      I don’t want to fall out with anyone on here because the vast majority of people who post on / visit this site are extremely decent individuals, I’m sure. Not just decent but superb when it comes to their commitment and devotion in relation to fighting for Independence and more than anything seeing it through to the end.

      I’m baring my soul when I say that I have fought day in and day out throughout my whole life from day one (age 6) against unfairness and injustice against all odds and often to my detriment (professionally, personally and financially), said to be an iron fist in a velvet glove, and yet when I come onto this site I absolutely quake with fear when I read some of the posts.

      We, Scottish Independence supporters, have MANY enemies not least of all the Media. I’m absolutely desperate to get Independence for Scotland and therefore can see clearly that we have this site (more than anything), the National and Sunday Herald on our side. The SNP is the ultimate spearhead, tool, in obtaining our objective and that’s it folks. We don’t have a lot going for us. Akin to a David versus Goliath scenario.

      When I see anyone on here attacking the SNP, the National or the Sunday Herald it puts the fear of death into me. When I see anyone attack Stu or Wings from further afield I can’t bear it. When I hear that Theresa May is clamping down on online sites I can’t stand it and wonder how much time we have left.

      Just saying in an attempt to clarify how I feel and why and how I react.


      Meanwhile some GREAT news as far as I’m concerned. This is exactly what we need, imo, and can no doubt be developed. Let’s attend this Conference and express our views. Let’s ALL get going.


      ‘Elaine C Smith said: “For supporters of independence, old and new, this conference will be the time and place to find out how we go forward as a movement.”

      National columnist Lesley Riddoch commented: “This is a vital time for Yessers to come together and explore how the movement can make a coordinated and effective case for independence which doesn’t ebb and flow with the electoral cycle.”

      An SIC spokesperson said: “While this is a national conference in Edinburgh, we’re not going to stop there. We are already planning to begin a major dialogue with Yes groups from around Scotland and work on more events around the country.’


      ‘Submit your Yes videos for the Scottish Independence Convention conference.’

      With more than 800 tickets already snapped up for its national conference in Edinburgh next month, the Scottish Independence Convention (SIC) is asking local Yes groups to tell them what they are doing ‘on the ground’ at the moment.

      Entitled Build: Bridges to Indy, the conference in the Usher Hall on Saturday, 4 November, is aiming to offer the Scottish independence movement some practical steps that can be taken to build bridges with voters who are not yet convinced by independence.

      In order to show how the movement can organise itself, local Yes groups are being asked to send in videos of people in their local groups with a message to be shown at the conference.

      Messages can be short snippets of what local groups get up to on a regular basis, what they would like to see from the SIC in future or just general goodwill messages to the movement.

      The Scottish Independence Convention is a grassroots umbrella group made up of all national level pro-independence campaign organisations.

      It brings together independence-supporting parties (SNP, Scottish Greens, SSP), the national independence-supporting organisations (including Labour for Independence, Women for Independence, Radical Independence Campaign, Business for Scotland, NHS Yes, Common Weal and a range of others) and representatives of grassroots groups.

      The Convention says: “Following on from January’s sold out conference in Glasgow, the Usher Hall conference aims to build on the work that is being done all across Scotland to outline practical steps that we can take to build bridges between ourselves and those who are not yet supporters of Independence.”

      The full programme is due to be released shortly and the conference is also expected to play host to entertainment throughout the day.

      Event passes are now available to buy on the Usher Hall website for £15, while concession prices are £8.

      Confirmed speakers include Lesley Riddoch, Elaine C Smith, Audrey Birt, Dr Iain Black, Robin McAlpine and Liam Stevenson.

      Interested groups should contact Shona on info [at] theconvention [dot] scot for more details.

      Elaine C Smith said: “For supporters of independence, old and new, this conference will be the time and place to find out how we go forward as a movement.”

      National columnist Lesley Riddoch commented: “This is a vital time for Yessers to come together and explore how the movement can make a coordinated and effective case for independence which doesn’t ebb and flow with the electoral cycle.”

      An SIC spokesperson said: “While this is a national conference in Edinburgh, we’re not going to stop there. We are already planning to begin a major dialogue with Yes groups from around Scotland and work on more events around the country.

      “We want local groups to address conference so if you can’t make it on the day we hope you can send us in a few words by video instead”.

      Deadline for submissions is Sunday, October 19.

    298. Miss Donna Babington says:

      Been a while but felt the urge to pop in on passing.Normal folks relate to others like themselves.Wee Jean at the end of my street watches heartbeat repeats not daily politics, she watches the news, buys the papers and is completely oblivious to yon ego fluffers who can Yes better because they do it from lofty platforms, she is not going to listen to a podcast or go to a conference nor will she be retweeting Wings or having a #BBCQT time rant anytime soon.

      I carry her bags when I meet her going through the park every other day as I have done for years now, I chat to her and I try to recondition her thinking by repeating mainly WOS based facts to counteract the shite from the papers she will comment on, she relates to me, she trusts me and I am capable of reaching her.I see the results and it`s worth the long haul to me.

      I have different methods of yessing for different folks of course but I carry the ‘aye we fucking can’ message to people again and again every chance I get.Twitter is a bubble, an echo chamber of relative safety where we can get lazy and bask in the occasional popular tweet glory but this job isnae going to finish itself.

      It`s basic stuff, hardly groundbreaking I know yet many smart arses miss it and it frustrates me just a tad.I am not interested in cutting edge indy campaigning techniques and I dare anyone to tell me how to Yes.I will be drip feeding the normals in my community on loop until they repeat after me.Independence is normal, I say Yes!

    299. Petra says:

      Big, big welcome to you Donna and you are spot on. That’s EXACTLY the way, HOW, to do it.

      ”I will be drip feeding the normals in my community on loop until they repeat after me. Independence is normal, I say Yes!”

      Keep posting Donna. Keep us up to date.

    300. Craig P says:

      Remember the indy cabin that sat outside St Andrew’s House in Edinburgh from 1992 until we won the referendum in 1997? The mistake the indy campers made last year was to pitch their tents outside Holyrood. If you want to be visible at Scotland’s seat of influence, then make camp outside Pacific Quay.

    301. Craig P says:

      Oh and Scotland has long had a strong tradition of radical voices… that noone actually listens to. From the radical rising of 1820 to the Commonweal and RISE.

      We feel good about ourselves saying we are a left wing and progressive country, but the reality is waaaay more people in Scotland read the Daily Mail than have ever heard of Cat Boyd.

    302. Breeks says:

      AlbertaScot says:
      7 October, 2017 at 1:11 am
      Hi Mike (again)

      I neglected to mention…

      Picker trucks, B-train tankers, lowboys hauling track hoes, oil field floats loaded down with down-hole tubulars, honey wagons and a Trican frac spread on the roll, the Duvernay tight shale play is on fire, baby.

      A lot of guys feeding their families, paying their taxes and making payments on double-wides and big-screen TVs in the Alberta oil patch…..

      Yeah, I’ve heard loggers destroying the rain forests have the same attitude. They call it progress, the environment takes a kicking, the critters living there get moved on or shot, and the planet bleeds a little more.

      Even if fracking was safe and consequence free, which it isn’t, shale gas is a hydrocarbon fossil fuel which puts more Carbon dioxide out of the ground and into the atmosphere and accelerating climate change.

      Don’t think that’s hypocrisy either, though maybe a little bit. All that oil Scotland is discovering should be left exactly where it is. Scotland’s future bonanza is in clean renewables. The future for oil and gas is cleaning it up, not causing more problems.

      Don’t get me wrong. I totally get the joy and satisfaction that comes from feeding your family, escaping from poverty, and having some cash in your pocket. I just wish your government and fracking companies were clever, rather than needy and greedy, and found a better way to generate that employment and prosperity.

      Loggers, miners, drillers, farmers with pesticides, fishermen, can all find excuses for what they do. But in a better world we’d have a better equilibrium where life for us is sustainable without wrecking the planet we live on.

      Over here, we also have idiots like the Labour Party who justify Nuclear weapons and submarines right on the doorstep of Glasgow because it provides a few jobs. They too have convoys carrying nuclear weaponry chugging along Scottish roads in the middle of the night, and have their support vehicles and jargon. They also don’t like to think about the consequences what it is they’re actually doing. It’s different, but the same. Westminster is just needy-greedy for military clout, so screw everybody else.

    303. Scott Shaw says:

      I totally agree Stu. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    304. Ghillie says:

      Breeks @ 6.52 am

      Well said 🙂

      Chris has got his cartoon up now =)

    305. cearc says:

      Donna has it there.

      The best and in many cases only way to change people is with is slowly with an appropriate comment at each and every opportunity.

      Now, whilst there is no official campaign is the very best time to do this dip-feed of information to your own acquaintances, friends and family without coming over as just another campaigner.

      The next campaign Yes wil be the vote for the status quo and No a leap off the famous cliff edge

    306. PacMan says:

      Craig P @ 7 October, 2017 at 6:49 am

      Oh and Scotland has long had a strong tradition of radical voices… that noone actually listens to. From the radical rising of 1820 to the Commonweal and RISE.

      Radicalism in Scotland was not only restricted to the left.

      Despite modern re-imaginings, Adam Smith was anti-colonialist, anti-monopolistic, in favour of control the markets so it benefits the many and recognized the need for the state or in his words ‘the common wealth’. While a darling of Thatcherist apologists, if he was alive today, he would have been dismissed as a socialist by them.

      While the Wealth of Nations contains a lot of dry economic theory, it is worth reading the philosophic part.

    307. Muscleguy says:

      @Rev Stu
      The ANC in Catalonia which organises those enormous marches (in Barcelona or Girona) started out as a middle class talking shop. Catalonia’s Indy movement is largely a middle class thing. Historically revolutions by the proletariat get nowhere until the middle classes join in.

      The class warrior in you is missing the point. The Usher Hall thing is trying to create an ANC style organisation, independent of the feart, po-faced SNP which might achieve both big marches AND run a long term pro-indy campaign which might actually move the polls which the SNP think will move themselves, with our media.

      The ANC cut its teeth organising marches in little places, to learn, to get experience, to get the people excited and wanting one. We could do that.

    308. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ PacMan 3.03 How £1.00 in a bottle can potentially find £5bn for an independent Scotland. The monies collected to date (£1.00 in a bottle from Yes Groups and Rallies all over Scotland) are in the safekeeping of the First Minister of Scotland.

      Why and to answer your question read the extract below it and more details are from here:

      It’s Rutherglen just over a year ago, and I plonked an empty water bottle on a table and said, once you put a £1.00 coin in it, and sign a promise, it is an example of a Central Bank. I have repeated that many times over the past year.

      Was I mad? Was it just a stunt? Were those who put their £1.00 coin in just trying to humour me, he seems like a good soul, and he supports Scottish independence? Want to know the truth? I was actually copying someone, I was copying a real Central Bank.

      That Central Bank has its very own “bottle” and in it on the 28th of February this year, was £4,560 million!

      That “bottle” is in the Bank of England .

      What everyone who has put a £1.00 in a bottle has been doing is simply copying something the Bank of England has been doing. Here’s why.

      There are three Banks in Scotland where the Bank of England has given them permission to issue paper/plastic currency, The Royal Bank of Scotland, The Bank of Scotland, and the Clydesdale Bank.

      But the Bank of England, won’t give that permission until those three Banks have put an amount into the Bank of England’s “bottle” which is equal to the amount of paper currency that has been issued. On the 28th of February 2017, in that “bottle” in the Bank of England was £4,560,000,000!

      Every bit of paper currency issued by those three Banks, the very ones you have in your wallet, purse, or pocket today, all of those in shop tills across Scotland today, can only exist because those Banks have put that money in the Bank of England “bottle”.

      The Bank of England monitor it constantly. In exactly the same way I have monitored the £1.00 coins and the Forms in this initiative since I started.

      That Bank of England system has been happening since 1845, and more recently was updated in Part 6 of the Banking Act 2009, which came into effect on 23 November 2009.

      But what happens when – not if – Scotland becomes independent.

      We have been told that when Scotland becomes independent, it is more than likely that those three Banks will consider, and are likely to move their Head Office registration to England, and out of Scotland. That will make them Foreign Banks, it will also make the Bank of England a Foreign Bank.

      How should a Scottish Central Bank (SCB) act when that happens? If they don’t act, then every item of paper currency in Scotland, (and after independence that now includes all Bank of England notes), becomes free and devoid of any backing.

      The SCB may have a “bottle” – but there is no equivalent security for all that money, the “bottle” at the SCB is empty!

      Maybe this initiative will tell them how they should act.

      Maybe what everyone who has put a £1.00 coin in a “bottle” over the past year is teaching the SCB what to do.

      Maybe they should copy this initiative, and exactly what the Bank of England already insists must happen today.

      Maybe the Scottish Central Bank should insist that those three, now Foreign Banks place a deposit in the “bottle” in the Scottish Central Bank equal to the amount of paper currency they wish to have circulating in Scotland.

      On the 28th of February this year, that deposit was in the region of £4,560million for the three Banks.

      However, after independence, the SCB has something else to do. It also has to check out how many Bank of England items of paper/plastic currency are in circulation in Scotland.

      And, yes, you got it, ask the Bank of England for their deposit.

      That leaves out one last item – an independent Scottish currency.

      Well, you, my friends, every one of you who has placed a £1.00 coin in a bottle, and signed a form and made a promise have already dealt with that.

      You don’t even have to wait for independence – you have already taken the first step, you have already backed your own Scottish currency!

      And with your £1.00, you may have also discovered how to find £5bn!

    309. Nana says:

      German firms told to prepare for a ‘very hard’ Brexit

      Germany rejects May’s Brexit transition hopes

      The Case for Continued Customs Union Membership (September 2017)

    310. Ottomanboi says:

      The not so secret weapon in the Catalan armoury is culture. Scotland is presently a cultural province of the Anglo-American world. Our exposure to the steady flow of anglophone, non-native influences continues to erode our nation’s identity which we struggle to retain without the structures that the Catalans, against all odds, have managed to retain.
      The SNP is historically not cultural nationalist. Cultural nationalism has been eschewed as the territory of the fringe, in their view often the loony fringe. In true ‘sensible’ Protestant fashion the National party has concentrated on the utilitarian, bread and butter issues with matters cultural addressed as thin icing on the economic cake.
      Were we to have a ministry in the SNP government style ‘Culture and National Education’ a seismic shift in our approach to this existential question would register in a positive direction. We need remedial re-education in the cultural basics of our nationhood; an act of revolutionary boldness.

    311. Colin Dunn says:

      Been thinking about this overnight. I see the appeal of ‘this is just about Indy, everything else can be decided after Indy’ approach.

      However, I think all of those who accept and agree with this are already onboard, and have been since 2014. To push Yes over the 50% we need to convince the more cautious and wary, and to do that I think we need to present well thought out and pragmatic options for what could happen in future. And that needs some kind of overarching organisation.

    312. ScottieDog says:

      Without getting into a big debate about fracking I’d say two words – thermal mass.
      Fly over Scotland on a snowy day and see where the snow line stops – at the coasts.

      Denmark (as usual) are streets ahead in using water as thermal storage with ‘step-up’ heat pumps to supply district heating systems. They also fill disused quarries with water and cover them with translucent materials to heat the water for the same purpose. The pumping system can be by means of electricity generated by wind/tidal turbines etc. It’s an energy source which lasts generations without costing future generations.

      Might not be as relevant to a large landmass like Canada but it certainly is here. Just needs the funding.

    313. ScottieDog says:

      @Mike Fenwick
      Hi Mike,
      Be interested to hear how Michael you have raised so far in £ reserves. It’s an interesting project.

      My preference of course is to float a Scottish currency and get the SG to offer private debtors the chance to redenominate their mortgage, loan repayments into £S with SG as guarantor. This would protect them against any currency devaluation. The SG itself through negotiation with WM would not be short of £ reserves but your idea provides a reserves fund before the gun is even fired

      My feeling is that the new currency after the dip of initial issue would start to appreciate anyway as our energy exports grew.

    314. ScottieDog says:

      @Mile Fenwick
      Sorry for typo above.
      Would also add that as well as paper seniorage, the Scottish Central Bank engage in digital seniorage so that more central bank money is in the economy – a higher % than the current 3% anyway!

      Digital cash could form the basis Of current accounts so that in the case of a bank crash, where bank created money disappears, the SCB in current accounts is unaffected.

      Of course bank regs should form part of a money constitution so that regulators in future spend time in prison for not doing their jobs!

    315. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Miss Donna Babington at 3.43

      Spot on, Donna.
      “Aye we fucking can” is the message. We need to get the opposition onto our battlefield and off theirs.Their message is a thinly disguised insult and built round a hidden message that we are too small and too stupid.

      I will be at SNP conference and am going there to meet people and hear what the diagnosis is of where we are now rather than the conference programme. I do fully understand that the SNP is the Scottish Government and has to present a programme for government. So far, so good.
      But is also has to proceed a programme for independence or we will lose our membership. This can best be done through energised branches and CAs. I want to hear that the party is listening to them which is why I have put my name down for office. Our MP Brendan O’Hara is getting a member based campaign together as we speak.

    316. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ ScottieDog … 9.52 … follow the link above and you will find more than enough (perhaps too much) but each of the questions you raise are answered there.

      The initiative is being rolled out in stages, first stage was my committment in August 2016, to go anywhere in Scotland to talk through what was involved, that has happened from Ayrshire, Lanarkshire, rallies in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ellon, and as far as Orkney.

      It has also involved making deliveries of the “Message in a Bottle” – the coins to the safe keeping of the First Minister of Scotland (symbolic of a Scottish Central Bank) and of letters being issued to all 129 MSPs so that they are aware of the initiative. The First Minister was given a presentation of the first independent Scottish currency on the 1st of January this year, the first in over 300 years.

      The next stages include an app to allow for transactions digitally – and not a paper/plastic version, in part to avoid cost, but more importantly to avoid counterfeiting. And yes, the SCB as in the bottle would have your money in your name, not as at present a transfer of the ownership of your money to a Bank, as soon as you deposit it – there are video clips on the link where that and much more is explained.

      I’ll stop here … the link has items on all of this, and more. I hope you and others might have a look. Cheers!

    317. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Ottomanboi’s comment @9:20am today.

      Here’s some reading I thought might help Yes groups attempt a cultural re-boot.

      Introduction: ‘Whose Culture?’ Exposing the Myth of Cultural Diversity

      Reinvigorating community: An Inauguration Day gathering at Stanford

      A report on the Cultural Cities Research Network 2011-12

    318. Divide and Conquer..A classic Empire strategy!

    319. ScottieDog says:

      @Mike Fenwick
      Thanks Mike,
      I’ll have a look at the page and forward tom our Positive Money Edinburgh page if it’s ok.

    320. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ ScottieDog … no probs … PM themselves and PM Edinburgh are aware of the initiative, and I have used some (not a lot) of their material in the posts.

      FYI … these were the objectives I set:

      June – 2016 – I delivered 129 letters, one to each MSP, these are extracts:

      1 – A detailed explanation of the currency options available to an Independent Scotland, and to instigate as wide ranging a debate as can be achieved on such options.

      2 – A practical example of how these options can benefit Scotland, within which we intend to produce a demonstration (in Beta form) of how to establish a Scottish National Bank, and a Scottish Investment Bank.

      3 – A series of steps which will allow for money to be made available to challenge and mitigate the current austerity regime.

      The first 2 are started, the 3rd will I hope start shortly.

    321. Nana says:

      From Holyrood magazine

      I’m not sure what it is, but there’s something disconcerting in the way the UK party relates to Davidson that makes me bristle, like she’s something from a cheap novelty store that you can admire for its garishness but wouldn’t display on the mantelpiece.

    322. ahundredthidiot says:

      I take the point that I could have made a better offer with my Islander/Oil/Independence example, and while I thank people for their learned contributions about 12 mile limits, enclaves, etc, what I was actually attempting (rather weakly) to do, was to make people consider for a second the Spanish point of view. To the best of my knowledge, and I am prepared to be corrected on this, Catalonia has never been a recognised nation state. And I am not offering that this is a reason NOT to be a nation state either, which is why I am largely supportive of their situation.

      If anything, I am trying to highlight what I am beginning to regard as the death of diplomacy across the Globe. I just cant fathom this ‘calm before the storm’ type of rhetoric from Trump for example.

      In any case, when we do (and we will) become an Independent Country, I would hope Scotland would treat her citizens with the dignity and respect they deserve so that we would never find ourselves in such a calamitous situation – because otherwise, what would be the point.

    323. Daisy Walker says:

      Been really interesting reading all of the above. Made me chuckle. Who was it that said, Scotland is an argument.

      I used to do a lot of yoga, and one of the themes it had was this, ‘your energy goes where you put your mind’… so if you have a sore toe and you focus in on your sore toe and really concentrate all the time on the soreness of your toe… it’ll get sorer.

      If however, you acknowledge you have a sore toe and then decide to make Doctor’s appointment for the toe, and make a cup of tea to take the weight off, now you are concentrating on other stuff (as well as dealing with it) and the toe is no longer quite so sore.

      Miss Donna Babbington – you are my hero. The most effective method of selling something to someone is the personal recommendation from a person you know and trust. Remember the British Nationalists do not have any bodies on the ground, they have to pay for every single bit of canvassing.

      You are all my heros, just keep doing what your doing, play the strength of your own hand. All of it counts and none of it is wasted.

      Aye we can and aye we will. One bit of decency at a time.

    324. mike cassidy says:

      Nana 9.20

      re the Murdoch computer hacking story.

      The irony there is that the guy getting hacked is just as bad!

      ‘Hoist’ and ‘petard’ come to mind, methinks!

    325. Tinto Chiel says:

      Apologies if Nana or someone else has linked to this since yesterday but it is worth remembering if you listen to Pravdasound4:

      Jackie Baillie’s abacus in use again, of course.

      Donna B @3.43 (poetry): just so. It’s those wee conversations we have every day which will do the trick for us, probably more than door-step canvassing.

      Please keep commenting.

    326. Nana says:

      @Mike Cassidy,
      Aye Mike, ironic indeed.

      On the eve of the snp conf

    327. Jack Murphy says:

      Catalan News TV takes a look at events in the past week.
      13 minutes video from a broadcast yesterday:

      “6-Oct-17 TV News:
      ‘Referendum results out amid uncertainty over declaration of independence’

      “90% of voters chose ‘Yes’ to independence in Sunday’s referendum.
      Today, the final referendum results have been published, showing that almost 8% voted to stay in Spain.

      The results came amid doubts about what will happen next week in Parliament. Will Catalonia declare independence from Spain? How would Madrid respond?…….”

    328. Ruby says:

      I’ve just seen a march with banners saying ‘Scrap the Cap’.
      One of the banners said ‘Cough Up Now Theresa’ which I thought was very witty!

    329. Ruby says:

      crazycat says:
      7 October, 2017 at 12:23 am
      @ Ruby

      What I was trying to convey (not very well, obviously!) is that it is incorrect to say that Casals was “referred to in English as Pablo”.

      Ruby replies

      OK we won’t argue about that ‘cos TBH it’s a bit boring! 🙂 The rest of your post about the Spanish Governemnt insisting that he be called Pablo is however very interesting and I would like to hear more.

    330. ScottieDog says:

      @Mike Fenwick
      Thanks mike, I’m not on Facebook actually so that’s why I have missed it. Good to see the guys have put it up there though.

    331. Ottomanboi says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      Scotland suffers from the effects of cultural appropriation. The merging and confusing of Scottish>British>English is reminiscent of old style colonialism. Rubbing out our culture to the point that some even opine that before the Union and the so-called Scottish Enlightenment, which the Union is supposed to have initiated, we compared very unfavourably with England.
      We know that is nonsense. Our links were strong with Europe. For instance the Renaissance arrived, unmoderated, in Scotland earlier than England. We had a life before that ill-advised treaty.
      The projection of Scotland by Unionism’s propagandists as where the barbarians start is vicious and one we may well have absorbed by a steady anglicising ósmosis triggering the dread Scotch cringe reflex. This requires a recension of our ‘Unionised’ cultural backdrop; an intellectual and ‘high culture’ matter. It is where authentic renewal and regeneration begins. We are not an exception. Other modern small states have followed that course.
      The National party needs to address this issue with greater commitment. We need a counter-intelligentsia in every discipline.

    332. cirsium says:

      Very interesting post about thermal mass

      @Mike Fenwick,9.16am
      That was a scarey post but a good heads-up about a crucial issue.

    333. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mike Fenwick
      I read your posting and thought nothing much of it, until I saw Scott replying to you. ScottieDog is a poster I respect as he has some ideas which at first glance seem to be weird. We do after all live in a neoliberal (spit, hate that meaningless word) world, so why bother with some wacky stuff? But when I finally took the time to read Mitchell’s blog article about MMT, it opens up a new vista of possibilities, particularly regarding debt and deficit, and hence GERS, and a main unionist plank against Independence for Scotland.

      So I re-read your posting, and it fits in completely with what I found out during Indy Ref 1, going back to the 1845 Banking Act when the Scottish Banks were forced to cover 100% their advertising scrip in the Bank of England. I’d also read a wealth of articles on Wealthy Nation, an immense resource in many ways, but for me at that time particularly about currency. I’d also done research on sterlingisation which led me to Panama, with something like the 8th safest banks (loads of them), in the developed world. But interestingly at that time, no Central Bank at all, though it was planned then (no idea what happened since).

      Mike’s posting:

      I’d recommend all YES shops to have such a bottle, on a table underneath a wall poster, and perhaps with some simple leaflets like Mike’s posting to go with it.

      Your posting, by the way, made me smile, laugh a little, because it is such a “silly” idea. But the thing is, if you can make someone laugh and smile, then you’re inside their personal space, their mind opens because they’re in a good mood, and that’s when you can hit them – as your posting did me – with the thought “is this really wacky after all?”. And the answer is no, it’s actually very clever. And fits in with actual history.

      With you taking the trouble to write to the MSPs, and presumably calmly and patiently put your case forward, and ScottieDog posting here and elsewhere about the MMT, the two of you show just what individuals with ideas can achieve.

      Good luck with it.

    334. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Scotland suffers from the effects of cultural appropriation.”

      That describes the effects of contemporary British nationalism in a nutshell. Thank you.

      Scotland’s culture is absorbed into the ‘One Nation’ ideology, an expansionist form of English culture, then re-interpreted in a form that is compatible with British nationalism. A bit like boiling a frog, frankly.

    335. Mike Fenwick says:

      @ yesindyref2 4.10 Thanks for the comments. There are so many levels at which this can be addressed, I have tried to do so in a manner that I know from feedback has worked for many individuals who too often simply switched off when it came to subjects like this.

      At another level, I also submitted a 28 page report to the Competition & Markets Authority, embedded within which was a video link to a meeting in Glasgow where 5 volunteers were taken through an EU Directive, an Act of Parliament, and then shown how the commercial banks acted as though neither existed – their verdict, put simply “We are enslaved within a system”.

      This might interest you:

      That is largely theory, however as the stages in this initiative are rolled out I hope Yes supporters can help establish their own independent currency – not in theory but in practice.

    336. Cactus says:

      A welcome to all the new Wings posters on this post.

      Keep posting!

      Well said path yesterday evening ~

      And Yes there is an ever-lifting buzz Big Phil ~
      Rising vibrations.

      Well said Ian Brotherhood ~
      All of our Friends of Wings gigs are cool, it’s the excellent atmosphere! 🙂

      We are Friends of Catalonia too x.

    337. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mike Fenwick
      Interesting, being backed by big banks and studied by Central Banks does make it more “trustworthy”, unlike the likes of bitcoin. Yes, it’s got some way to go, but then by the time (say 2021) Scotland is Independent it might have matured enough to use, and even prepare for before then.

      Interbank largely works paperless anyway, has done for many years.

    338. robertknight says:

      Having more on your side in the media than a daily/Sunday rag from an otherwise Unionist stable tends to make a difference…

    339. Ghillie says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 10.07 am

      Have a wonderful time at Conference =)

      Good luck with your endeavours. I like the sound of your plans!

      The Scottish Government’s governing of Scotland IS critical. AND they do it so well =)

      The SNP’s drive for Scotland’s Independence is CRUCIAL.

      …For Scotland today, tomorrow and forever.

      (But I think they know that already and ARE continually working on it 🙂 )

    340. scottieDog says:


      As reality/austerity bites the realities of macro-economics is making a return. I say return because the comments I make reflect what was mainstream in the 50s and 60s.

      Economics was high-jacked by the banking fraternity and the household analogies used to describe the aggregate economy have dominated the narrative ever since.

      I’m supportive of any reforms that jolt the status quo.

    341. Macart says:

      Y’know there’s a real enemy out there and there’s a caricature of one at the top of this thread. In reality she’s not really funny and neither are those she directs.

      Maybe worth thinking about.

      The only divisive nationalism I’ve experienced in my entire life has been at the hands of Westminster government and unionist establishment orthodoxy. They ARE the dark face of nationalism.

      Elitist, patronising, arrogant, ignorant, isolationist and intolerant. The ideology of me myself and I. Their idea of perfection? New and more interesting ways of selling the idea that the politics of self is somehow acceptable to the public. That greed is good. That poverty, want, disability is somehow a personal choice and that its ok to exploit and alienate those who experience same. No, I feel no unity with the Tory idea of ‘Britishness and belonging’.

      Just to be perfectly clear. I will never ‘belong’ in that union and mainly because I care. Anyone who cares about the less fortunate and the ‘other’ in our society doesn’t belong in a Tory Britain. A Tory’s idea of a ‘United’ Kingdom.

      The Tories and their unionist support are the darkest of nationalist movements. Their tools of choice are public manipulation via intimidation, fear, division and violence. Their aims purely self serving and disregarding of the many (their disposable assets).

      This really shouldn’t be a difficult choice for anyone with a shred of conscience or humanity. All that is required, is that good people do nothing.

      Personally, I’m not big on doing nothing. I’ve been unemployed. I’ve cleaned human shit from toilet walls, dug ditches, cleared scrub land, tended bar, worked in kitchens, minded doors, re-educated myself and then took a different road. I’ve never been comfortably off. Never had a new motor, owned a home or clothed myself from posh stores. Never had posh hols (or in fact many hols at all) and I’ll never walk by a bod in need. I reckon I’ve been lucky… so far. (heh)

      There’s always, ALWAYS, someone worse off than you. Your Tory and Tory lites don’t give a shit.

      Who’s the bad guy?

    342. Ottomanboi says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      British politics has no noticeable ‘cultural’ dimension, in the European sense of the term.
      Contemporary Scottish nationalism is very British in that respect. Another manifestation of that ‘appropriation’ that afflicts us at every step. The psychology of this condition is not something the movers and shakers seek to address, assuming that is it is even recognised as ‘an issue’ by such.

    343. Mark Russell says:


      Well said, Sam. Through experience and education comes enlightenment. Shine the light.

    344. hopper69 says:

      We are divided, therefore we are still conquered.

    345. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalism has established cultural norms that deny Scots access to their inalienable human rights. These norms are now perceived by a large number of Scots as ethically moral.

      Moral Psychology

      Abstract and Keywords

      Moral psychology is the study of morality in its psychological dimensions. Its unity and interest as a subject derive from its connection to the larger subject of moral philosophy, conceived as the study of normative demands on action in general, and moral demands on action in particular. It is possible, to be sure, to study morality without paying any special attention to issues that might be called psychological. Traditionally, however, the normative questions at the centre of philosophical ethics have been understood to require a kind of treatment that is at least partly psychological. This is no doubt due to the fact that moral norms aim to govern action. When it succeeds relative to this aim, morality will of necessity leave psychological traces in the agents whose lives it governs — there will be distinctive patterns of motivation and emotional response that people are subject to who internalize and act on moral standards.

      Moral Political Economy and Poverty: Four Theoretical Schools Compared

      The Evolution of Ideology, Fairness and

      Ideas about what is “fair” above and beyond the individuals’ position in the income ladder determine preferences for redistribution. We study the dynamic evolution of different economies in which redistributive policies, perception of fairness, inequality and growth are jointly determined. We show how including fairness explains various observed relationship between inequality, redistribution and growth. We also show how different beliefs about fairness can keep two otherwise identical countries in different development paths for a very long time.

    346. Auld Rock says:

      In-fighting – that’s something that we Celts have a very long pedigree in. Wasn’t it the same infighting that brought about the failure of Prince Charlie when after taking Derby and the road to London wide open, they high tailed back to be massacred at Culloden? We NEVER LEARN.

      Auld Rock

    347. Ross says:

      Sorry big fan but this is really factually incorrect.

      The cup party literally refused to form a majority with the other pro yes coalition without their then head resigning. Equivalent of the greens expecting Nicola

      to re

    348. Ross says:

      Wrote a big thing and lost it. Can’t be bothered with detail.

      Will just say. Sorry Stu big fan but this is factually wrong.

      Read about CUP party post election stance and conduct.

      I know about this in great depth. Your analysis here is not borne out

    349. Roger says:

      BTW…does anybody know what ‘federalism’ (in the way it’s used by Labour and others) means?
      I’m asking because I just saw this in the Herald

      “Pete Wishart, the SNP’s longest serving MP, also told a conference fringe that his party should “respond positively” to the idea of a federal UK as a staging post to independence.”

      How is federalism deifferent from wht exists now? And would it mean a written constitution – possibly like the US or Spanish ones, which outlaws ‘secesssion’?

    350. deewal says:

      I don’t think the SNP nor the majority of Scot’s want Independence as a Nation.

    351. Toni Young says:

      George Clark
      Catalonia may cover a smaller landmass, but the population is larger by about half as much again.

    352. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      What and where is your evidence?

    353. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi deewal.

      My last comment was to you. Toni Young’s comment appeared later, obviously after moderation by the Rev.

    354. feedhunter says:

      crisiscult says:
      6 October, 2017 at 1:44 pm

      I don’t think I have a family member, friend, or acquaintance who does NOT know I have no TV licence, for example.

      I am in the same position but trying to convince people that I don’t watch any European TV channel live with a 4′ satellite dish in the front garden isn’t easy.

    355. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi feedhunter & Toni Young.

      Welcome! Good to see new usernames getting into the Wings experience.

      Basically, we are here blethering about the need for the independence of Scotland, as a nation. Well, most of us…

    356. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Roger @ 20:18 (09.Oct),

      What “federalism” means is that the UK would have to be reconstituted with Scotland, and to make things balanced, about 10 English regions of roughly similar population size, each having a formally-established quasi-sovereign parliament under an overarching federal parliament and government. (Think Germany or the USA.)

      The division of rights between the two layers of government would have to be decided, and could potentially be used by the devious as a “Trojan horse” to lock Scotland into the UK.

      In any case, it’s clear that, just as at present, major powers (eg. economy, defence, foreign policy) would remain at a UK level, and Scotland would have merely one voice out of many in regard to those, and would thus likely be regularly outvoted by English interests. So plus ça change there – which is the precisely the underlying intention.

      But don’t worry, the gross asymmetry of the notion and immovable English antipathy to any kind of regional subdivision plus an additional federal structure on top means that the notion has only any traction inside the fevered imaginations of NorthBritLab Proud Scot Buts, presumably to be deployed as Vow Mk.2 in indyref2.

      Why someone like Pete Wishart would want to waste any time on the absurdity beats me. No-one else is bothering. Maybe to try to wean over the aforesaid PSBs into something more sensible by bringing them to eventually recognise its self-evident impossibility and so move on to something achievable, like full independence.

    357. yesindyref2 says:

      I did wonder myself, but as he says on his twitter it’s not exactly what he said! What he did say as quoted in the article is this:

      This idea that somehow Scotland would be equal to some region of England in terms of a federal solution across the UK is totally, utterly unacceptable to this party.

      But any proposal for an international, federal UK is, I think, something we should welcome and treat as part of that conversation about the future of our country.

      Basically I think it’s the discussion he’s after. Iain McW was all for DevoMax and considered Federalism before realising it wouldn’t work probably after reading comments on his articles, and came out for YES. Since that he’s swithering a wee bit I think, so since there’s probably others the same, an open debate brings out all the issues – and why federalism wouldn’t work!

      Open debate is mostly in our favour. Just about always, really.

    358. Bill says:

      Late to comment on this most excellent post. I’ve been very busy with the Police. I received a credible and viable death threat towards both myself and my wife by a prominent Scottish zoomer.

      It’s time ordinary people were included, for years we’ve been sidelined by luvvies and arty farty writers with their fancy blogs, books and columns.

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