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Posted on October 04, 2017 by

All anyone will remember of Theresa May’s speech to the Tory conference:

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    1. 04 10 17 14:56

      Reader’s digest | speymouth

    477 to “Reader’s digest”

    1. Splutter Splutter is the most sensible utterances which have passed this tories lips

    2. Michael McCabe says:

      CHOKE

    3. heedtracker says:

      OMG, it fcuking hilarious:D. Someone get her off that stage, please.

    4. John Thomson says:

      She should have stopped 1/2 hour ago, so false

    5. Macart says:

      Prime minister post looking well and truly ffffff……

      … free very shortly. (cough)

    6. Valerie says:

      All that’s needed are paramedics with a stretcher for a finale.

    7. theMadMurph says:

      Oh please tell me that really happened?

      Does someone have a link so I can watch it?

    8. One_Scot says:

      Lol, Nicola must be shaking in her shoes.

    9. Bob Mack says:

      Try Covonia. That works.

      In truth I listened to her praise Ruthy, but she was neglecting to thank her for using and galvanising support from every racist,bigot, and quasi paramilitary force in Scotland.
      Bit neglectful.

    10. One_Scot says:

      ‘Oh please tell me that really happened?’

      You know what, if someone tells me I actually dreamt it, I would believe that.

    11. Dr Ew says:

      Whoever that guy was or whatever his motivations, you have to give him a round of applause.

      Chapeau, dude, chapeau.

    12. CageyBee says:

      i am sure the BBC can edit it down to coherent SNPBADness

    13. Macart says:

      Set behind May falling apart.

      Now if ever there was an ill omen or apt metaphor…

    14. Movy says:

      At least two digs at the nationalists and a declaration of being a proud Unionist. They must be worried.

    15. heedtracker says:

      Christ they just wound that farce up with a Rihanna hit too. Is this what you came for, tory youths?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOkQ4T5WO9E

    16. One_Scot says:

      I have never been so less intimidated by an InyRef2 block statement by anyone, ever.

    17. IZZIE says:

      bbc saying amber rudd urged boris to take over

    18. Petra says:

      @ Valerie says at 12:49 pm …. ”All that’s needed are paramedics with a stretcher for a finale.”

      Ha, ha, ha! Well it nearly happened Valerie. As she was walking off of the stage and down the stairs she tripped and nearly took a nosedive. Just as well wee Phil was there to hold onto her. Wee Phil that raced onto the stage (thought he was going to go on his neck) to hug her like a scene from Romeo and Juliet. Must have been practising it all last night.

      God the Tories are finished. Destroying themselves. Next up Corbyn.

    19. Janet says:

      Watch out, folks! According to the politically impartial Metro, we’re getting BoJo…who will kick Corbyn into deep space!

      Tory media are ensuring the succession!

      Time for indy.

    20. Admiral says:

      The F falling off said it all … F off! LOL!

    21. Petra says:

      @ heedtracker says at 12:58 pm …”Christ they just wound that farce up with a Rihanna hit too. Is this what you came for, tory youths.”

      Tereza staggering off stage like a stork with a limp to:

      “This Is What You Came For (and don’t forget to bring your earplugs, blindfold and an anti-bacterial face mask).”

      Baby, this is what you came for
      Lightning strikes every time she moves
      And everybody’s watching her
      But she’s looking at you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh

      Baby, this is what you came for
      Lightning strikes every time she moves
      And everybody’s watching her
      But she’s looking at you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh

      We go fast with the game we play
      Who knows why it’s gotta be this way
      We say nothing more than we need
      I say, “Your place,” when we leave

      Baby, this is what you came for
      Lightning strikes every time she moves
      And everybody’s watching her
      But she’s looking at you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh

      You, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh

      Baby, this is what you came for
      Lightning strikes every time she moves
      Yeah

      Baby, this is what you came for
      Lightning strikes every time she moves
      And everybody’s watching her
      But she’s looking at you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh

    22. Valerie says:

      Vid for moment the F fell off the sign. The E also fell and BBC went in tight on her face, like the gimps they are.

      https://twitter.com/ValerieRooney1/status/915546685769699328

    23. CameronB Brodie says:

      BUILDING A COUNTRY THAT WORKS FOR EVERYONE”

      1. When did the unitary state of the UK become a country? – I may have mentioned contemporary British nationalism is an expansionist form of English nationalism.

      2. In what way does right-wing authoritarianism affect social mobility?

      Britain’s social mobility problem is getting worse for young people.
      Britain has a deep social mobility problem which is getting worse for an entire generation of young people, the Social Mobility Commission’s State of the Nation 2016 report warns today.

      The impact is not just felt by the poorest in society but is also holding back whole tranches of middle- as well as low-income families – these treadmill families are running harder and harder, but are standing still.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/state-of-the-nation-report-on-social-mobility-in-great-britain

      ‘Postcolonial Melancholia’ anyone?

    24. David McDowell says:

      Valerie@1:15pm
      Shortly after the “F” fell off Theresa was heard to utter: “Sorry about the ‘F’ in FOR!” 😉

    25. Macart says:

      (collectively) – That went well. 🙂

      https://twitter.com/GdnPolitics/status/915544820277551105

    26. heedtracker says:

      Golly, BBC r4 vote tory gimp lunchtime news just had Laura Keunsbergers read out this!

      Nicola Sturgeon?Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 8m8 minutes ago

      Spare a thought for those of us still to deliver our conference speech and now fretting about all the things that could go wrong ? #SNP17

    27. Petra says:

      “This Is What You Came For.”

      ”Baby, this is what you came for
      Lightning strikes every time she moves
      And everybody’s watching her
      But she’s looking at you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, you, ooh, ooh
      You, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh …..”

      But she’s looking at you, ooh, ooh! Thank God she wisnae looking at me. She’s well and truly jinxed. You know like the Tutankhamun curse.

    28. winifred mccartney says:

      Message for RD, your boss says no racists/bigots etc so that gets rid of half of the conservative councillors at one stroke.

      Indy Ref2 ‘denied’ in her dreams. There already is a mandate and the snp will know the right time for this.

    29. mike cassidy says:

      So does this move Ruth The Sectarian closer to a bid for the top job?

      And which Tory MP in Scotland – or more likely England – is willing to walk the plank – to facilitate such a bid?

      PS Don’t remind them that’s she’s never won an election as Scottish Tory leader? It might put them off.

    30. Clootie says:

      …the majority of Scots thought it better that their nation be run by clowns like this…Why are so many Scots so lacking in confidence in their own nation?

      A nation dreaming of Empire status and military capability to RULE them instead of building a better society at home.

      I hope this next generation of Scots has more guts

    31. David McDowell says:

      In the end all the letters in “BUILDING O RY FOR EVERYONE” fell off. The only ones left attached were…

      A C UNT

      I’m sure God was trying to tell us something.

    32. Clarinda says:

      Despite the inept use of fuzzy felt letters – what does ‘Building a country that works for everyone’ mean? Building a country to work for us?? Wasn’t it JFK who said “ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country”?

      The letters falling off, the P45, the cough, the lozenge, the breaking voice, the cheesy clinch from Phil at the (blessed) end, the exit trip and the tears – did she say anything interesting, I seemed to have been distracted.

    33. One_Scot says:

      Well I don’t know about anyone else, but I thought that today was just going to be your usual mundane midweek Wednesday.

    34. mr thms says:

      While nearly everyone will remember the speech for her coughing fits, the P45 and the set falling, I will be remembering her it for her statement, that the second referendum was ‘denied’! The decision to hold one was taken after a democratic vote by the Scottish Parliament. At the time, she said ‘Now is not the time’. Can she do that?

    35. TheWasp says:

      Plantation Quay giving it big better together licks now. The coughing speech was all about tRuthless setting back referenda forever with her glorious victory in June. FFS, I can’t take much more of this crap.. oh wait Scotland economy is shit compared to the rest of the UK, impartial Fraser of Allander say, good to know how well we are doing being looked after by england

    36. call me dave says:

      Jings …I think that slack rope they cut her just tightened up!

      Is Ruthie standing by? 🙂

      Independence is the only way out of this madhouse all we have to do is wander down to the polling station and vote when Indy2 is called.

    37. heedtracker says:

      Colonel Ruth damns with faint praise. Its not hard to imagine the Colonel’s thought process, like “fcuk me, it should be me up there, it will be me up there!”

      Ruth Davidson?Verified account @RuthDavidsonMSP 33m33 minutes ago
      More
      If ever the PM needed a metaphor for service and duty and resolution through adversity, that battling performance was it! Huge respect.

    38. Calum McKay says:

      Time to go with grace, me thinks Mrs May!

    39. galamcennalath says:

      TMay … ” I take comfort that the General Election saw the threat of nationalism set back “

      In the sense that the Tories took a bit of a hammering, I would tend to agree. 😉

      Not what she meant, though.

      Choice is still hers. Hard Brexit and IndyRef2 follows.

    40. Macart says:

      Y’know, there’s an opportunity here.

      If you wanted to trash the reputations (cough) of certain elements in the media and kick both Ruth and May into touch, you could do worse than to remind everyone that independence is very much still on the table and a very viable option at your own conference.

      They’ve both made a real public spectacle of themselves trash talking the possibility of Scotland’s independence as any kind of option for our electorate. In fact Ruth’s status in Scottish politics hangs on one policy, yes? What d’you reckon would happen to Ruth, or PM May, if that statement was countered by our FM simply restating (for the umpteenth time) that the Scottish electorate WILL have a say once the Brexit deal becomes clear.

      Popcorn anyone? 🙂

    41. mike cassidy says:

      Headtracker 1.43

      That’s the twitter equivalent of a gold watch for services rendered.

      No wonder the Ianuccis of the world think satire is a pointless activity now.

      I have only one regret.

      I will not be around in 30 years when the relevant documents are released.

    42. HandandShrimp says:

      Love the letters falling off and how on earth did the comedian evade security?

      On the letters and in the spirit of Life of Brian….its a sign!

    43. Rob Outram says:

      I know it’s a stretch but the letters missing at the end there are almost an anagram for Etoufee which is the French for smothered or suffocated… Adopted into the English language as stuffed!

    44. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      That pakistani bus driver gets about. He was in Nicola’s speech too.

    45. Petra says:

      O/T

      EU debate on the Catalonia Referendum. Channel 232.

    46. Rob Outram says:

      Damn they also spell “We love EU”

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      The New Right aims to turn the clock back. One of the New Right’s most powerful weapons is education policy.

      Social mobility in Britain: low and falling
      The government wants ‘to create a Britain that is economically successful because it is socially mobile’. But new research by Jo Blanden, Paul Gregg and Stephen Machin indicates that social mobility is not only declining but also significantly lower than in some other developed countries.

      http://cep.lse.ac.uk/centrepiece/v10i1/blanden.pdf

      “97% of the least socially mobile areas voted Leave”: how social mobility is impacting British politics
      http://www.citymetric.com/politics/97-least-socially-mobile-areas-voted-leave-how-social-mobility-impacting-british-politics

      Education vital for social mobility
      http://www.esrc.ac.uk/files/news-events-and-publications/evidence-briefings/education-vital-for-social-mobility/

    48. CameronB Brodie says:

      Are Tories sociopaths?

      The Mind of the Authoritarian
      What is the nature of authoritarianism? Whence the origin of ethnocentrism?

      Authoritarians are nearly always ethnocentric in that they have a certain, simple and unshakable belief in the superiority of their own racial, cultural and ethnic group with a powerful disclaim for all those in other groups. This can easily lead to brutality, aggression and naked open prejudice.

      https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sideways-view/201502/the-mind-the-authoritarian

      Right-wing authoritarianism, political affiliation, religiosity, and their relation to psychological androgyny
      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01544681

      An Introduction to Social Dominance Orientation
      https://sites.psu.edu/movingpsychology/2012/09/06/an-introduction-to-social-dominance-orientation/

    49. lewis wilde says:

      What a day for a MayDream.

      And that wee cough? Well.

      http://www.whiskyboys.com/2009/05/21/whisky-remedies-may-even-cure-swine-flu/

    50. joannie says:

      I’m actually feeling sorry for her at this stage. Maybe that’s the Tories new masterplan, go for the pity vote.

    51. One_Scot says:

      Do you think the Tories ever sit in a room, shake their heads and say,’You know what, it’s just not working is it’.

    52. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      The look on Amber Rudd’s face just after Theresa said the responsibility for terrorist attacks lies solely with those who planned and carried them through.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irkPij5HFyo

    53. Robert Graham says:

      i guess the pish she was spouting was even giving her the boak ,just imagine the poor fk/rs who had to listen to it as part of their job .

      this tory mob removed from reality just like the labour mob , what they say and what they do are worlds apart ,thats when an inquiring media should be investigating not fawning over useless bloody liars .

    54. Dan Huil says:

      Truly embarrassing. This so-called united kingdom is a sick joke. Time to get out.

    55. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I don’t think the Tories at their “conference” have got the Laurel & Hardy tribute act quite right yet.

      But it’s not through lack of trying, and they’re getting there.

    56. One_Scot says:

      Seriously how any reasonable minded Scot could think, ‘You know what, let’s stick with this crowd’, is beyond me.

    57. Still Positive says:

      Jeezo that was unbelievable.

      So glad I am going to SNP Conference on Sunday. My pass came in this morning. Can’t wait.

    58. Liam says:

      I loved the comment that ISIS have claimed responsibility for her speech.

    59. Vestas says:

      The idea that Tankgirl would be acceptable to Tory England is laughable.

      There’s two basic problems :

      1) She’s gay;
      2) She’s Scots.

      Now depending on age groups 1) and 2) will alternate in preference but there’s no way in hell the people where I live would vote for anyone Scots as a tory MP. I live in the Charnwood constituency in Leics but that attitude is prevalent throughout the shire contituencies – with a couple of notable exceptions (ex-coal/steel areas where lots of Scots moved to decades ago).

      Now you move onto the basic problem for a lot of what’s left of the tory party membership. She’s gay, they’re christian and they’re not comfortable with this.

      I await more canonisation of Tankgirl by clueless tory MPs with interest. It’s not going to end well 🙂

    60. Scott says:

      Theresa May: “Racism and intolerance have no place in our society and we’ll always stamp it out.”

      Did she have a word with the Col about her councillors and this Tory.

      Calls for suspension of Tory candidate who told indy-backing Scottish teenager to “F*** off”

    61. sinky says:

      Another Great British Dream on

    62. Andy-B says:

      Yeah sound like she’s choking on her own lies.

    63. Breeks says:

      Breaking news… Queen sends aide to count ravens at the Tower….

    64. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. On Twitter:
      Madrid sending Army Units to Catalonia:

      https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/915568195477626881

    65. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Vestas @ 15:21,

      Yes, I can see that. It’s a measure of how desperate the Tories are for success that they are clutching at straws with their only “winner”. =cough=

      It’s likely to be a passing fad, as most of those sometime fancied for leadership of the Tories very quickly discover. Once the English spotlight gets properly turned on empty barrel Rude Gal, her star will quickly fade, I expect.

      But there’s no bigger turn-on for the Tories than a strong prospect of winning, and there would only have to be one “safe seat” willing to take her (almost certainly urban).

      And there are precedences, for the “Scots” part at least. Dr Foxy for one, the late Teddy Taylor who decamped from Glasgow to Southend, and pet hate of my Mum (bless her!), serial loser Gerry Malone, who eventually found a safe berth in Winchester after being ousted from Aberdeen South.

    66. mike cassidy says:

      Theresa May.

      Who knew she was just a Kezia Dugdale tribute act.

    67. Dan Huil says:

      She’ll have a P please, Bob.

    68. mike cassidy says:

      Boris 3.15.

      Loved this.

      ” Tory Party supporters, the National Farmers’ Union, even set up a ‘sensory farm’ inside the conference, which includes the “pledge apple tree”, where delegates can hang a paper apple on the prop to pledge their support for British farming. ”

      That will sit nicely next to the magic money tree!

    69. Robert Graham says:

      I guess a lot of union supporting Scots have a definite hearing problem , despite being told and reapedidy warned about the consequences of voting “NO” , deaf ears .

      They have chosen to ignore all the good natured wee funny endless jokes from their friends in the south who of course speak english properly , and laugh at their funny monopoly money , their indecipherable accents , their national dress , their backward literature and their mundan authors , their small contribution to the modern world , their football teams ,The list is endless ,

      And they believe they are wanted and respected by a nation who treats everyone who isn’t one of them as grubbly foreigners on the take , best of luck chaps and it’s probably a good thing you are a bit deaf , it might help .

    70. Petra says:

      @ Jack Murphy says at 3:33 pm …. ”Madrid sending Army Units to Catalonia:

      https://twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/915568195477626881

      Absolutely heartbreaking for the Catalonians. Some of them must be quaking in their shoes right now, especially the elderly who know only too well what they are capable of and must be worrying about how their young family members will react to this. And I wonder how the politicians are feeling right now as they will more than likely be arrested, as soon as they announce UDI. It’s not going well at all and could very well escalate, as was pointed out during the EU Catalonian debate earlier.

      I watched some of the EU debate on Catalonia and a number of MEP’s were absolutely raging at what’s going on, but will it halt the fascist Rajoy in his tracks? I don’t think so. They’ve got too much to lose now.

      And one wonders how this will impact on, influence, some of our more ‘feartie type’ of Scots, even although it’s a totally different situation, and will it embolden Theresa May (or Boris Johnston) to continue with her ”Now is not the time” … until doomsday?

    71. Marcia says:

      Even the Tory posters aren’t strong and stable.

    72. Petra says:

      It’s like the Mary Celeste on here!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNLhxKpfCnA

    73. Robert Graham says:

      Expect a visit shortly from Mr C Alexander ,he of the dug tail docking mission, well he got his wish curtesy of some SNP branches, pounced on gleefully by our BBC, ( Struth ) that’s it help them out boys oh and girls ,

      Please Pay Attention any ammunition will be gratefully absorbed and used , don’t help them.

      Their next wee piece Scottish growth rate slows , we can’t have laughter at the Tory party leader without a wee kick at the SNP government in retaliation can we now , I mean fairs fair equal measures for all eh .

    74. Last night on LBC Nigel Farage. Saying that we did not have violence like Catalonia except for some Nationlist thugs I tried to phone in to ask him what Nationlist thugs but as I have told you before they have banned me I was going to say the only thugs I heard of wre unionist the 80year old man who had his arm broken the youn pregnant girl who was kicked in the stomach the thugs who attacked the the young girls in George square by the way does any one know what happened about these assaults ???

    75. winifred mccartney says:

      Tories build new houses, fix the country, they can’t even build a stage set.

      Lets see a real conference next week here in Scotland.

    76. Robert Graham says:

      BBC on overdrive, their website usually updates only once a day around midnight, today its updating hourly and surprisingly its all SNP bad stuff, coincidence ? SNP conference at the weekend its all just the way the news is breaking, and not in any way being manufactured and manipulated to suit their agenda , nah that’s tin hat stuff isn’t it .

    77. mike cassidy says:

      I gather Theresa May was boasting about graphene as a British discovery.

      Well here’s what the Nobel-prize winning leader of that group of mostly non-British, EU-funded scientists had to say about Brexit.

      At about 4am it became clear that the Remainers were likely to lose …. I went to bed acknowledging the human species were not very smart animals.

      Fine article archived.

      http://archive.is/MW5fF

      If Tories have had enough of experts, it looks like experts have had enough of Tories.

    78. Artyhetty says:

      Just embarrassing. Shows utter disregard and level of contempt for the ‘everyone’ they are shafting. ‘Building’. What on earth does that mean? Building what, from what?
      The wrecking ball is huge, has been wrought down on their precious UK by their own dirty sleezy hands, with all the force they could manage over the years, and all with Labour’s help.

      I can just see it, the troughers who are wrecking lives, communities and the economy, will be off quick as a flash once their Brex*hit really does kick in. Away to their second homes in Espania, oh aye, they will be very welcome there as well.

      They are kicking in the people and will use full force against their Scotland ‘region’ of England.

      The wording without it falling apart was bad enough. I just want to know what it is they want to build exactly? You can’t build without investing, and these people are not investing in anything, except for themselves. They build down, not up for the people. Sickening.

      Scotland must not be wrecked, we do not need the investment and real building up of our country for the past 10 years, to be destroyed by these idiots.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      This was last year the makeup of the EU Parliament (might not be totally accurate now):

      Group of the European People’s Party (Christian Democrats) 216
      Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the EP 189
      European Conservatives and Reformists Group 74
      Group of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe 69
      Confederal Group of the European United Left – Nordic Green Left 52
      Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance 50
      Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy Group 44
      Europe of Nations and Freedom Group 39
      Non-attached Members 18
      Total 751

      From the Catalan debate from Alyn Smith’s twitter, it looks like the ECR, the Socialists and the Greens spoke out against the violence in Catalonia in this afternoon’s Strasbourg debate, for a total of 323 out of 750 – less than half. But that’s just from Alyn Smith’s twitter, there may have been more.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      Should point out it’s the presidents of the groups that spoke, not individual MEPs, and the Commission VP did say “Violence does not solve anything… it is never the solution”, which is a kind of neutral criticism.

      Need more info though as to what the other groups’ presifents said, I missed the debate.

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      On-topic, didn’t hear nor want to hear May’s speech, did read Settle in the Herald, and I’d say her croaky voice was a ploy to engender sympathy, pretty standard stuff for the weak. “poor thing”.

    82. galamcennalath says:

      Theresa May assures Tory faithful she is willing to crash out of EU without deal

      Yeees! Go on, Theresa! Go for it, Hen! The sooner the better!

      As soon as that’s clear, IndyRef2 should be announced (I hope). Then we can all have something constructive to direct our energies, frustration, and aspirations towards!

    83. Naina Tal says:

      Surely could have run to a projection backdrop instead of those fuzzy stick on letters?

      Mind you only 100,000 members?

      Or are they living in a UKOK Blue Peter past of toilet roll tubes cardboard and “sticky backed plastic”?

    84. mike cassidy says:

      OT – Universal Credit

      It would have been expecting too much for a member of the Labour Party to ‘praise’ the SNP –

      but this is a useful description of the current picture.

    85. Welsh Sion says:

      I know both of them suffer from Unionitis – but is la Baillie also suffering from the same cold as the PM?

      I think we should be told …

      https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/915602280623337472

    86. ronnie anderson says:

      Teresa’s singing in the key of F is that FALSETO

    87. Breeks says:

      See what happens when you leave home in a hurry and forget your lucky iron necklace chain?

      Bad shit happens. That’s what.

    88. mike cassidy says:

      OT – Catalonia

      Anybody with good enough French to check out the credibility of this article on ‘false news’ claims re some of the reported incidents of police violence in Catalonia.

      http://archive.is/O0if6

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m guessing you could add the GUE/NGL – European United Left – Nordic Green Left with 52 MEPs, since they also called the debate, so that would make 375 out of 750 – exactly half. Plus some others like Farage I guess, but it is a question if those who spoke out guardedly would vote for any strong motion.

      Can’t find any analysis of the debate so far, and don’t understand Italian enough to get this ending EP (European Parliament) president’s speech:

      http://audiovisual.europarl.europa.eu/Assetdetail.aspx?id=560e681f-6c67-49db-a154-a80200e9c313

      Here’s also an interesting article. The EPP, the largest group (216) who spoke up for Scotland in Brexit, are in a bit of a bind as that contains Rajoy’s party.

      I haven’t given up on the EU yet, but am moving towards EFTA and the EEA plus our own trade agreement with the rUK, get a “Nordic Rim” future for iScotland. For me, the EU is failing its strongest test since Greece (and Brexit). It hasn’t learned jack shit.

      But it does depend on what’s going on behind the scenes which looks to be – not a lot – as Spain is sending in a “miltary logistics” unit. Which presumably is the same as the Yanks in Vietnam.

    90. JaMur says:

      Weak and wobbly

    91. caledonia says:

      Noticed on stvnews and radio scotland on way home it told you about all that happened re policy etc etc but there was no comment from rival parties

      wait till the snp one and it will be “brian what do the other parties say” or “other parties say snp” this and that snpbad

    92. Artyhetty says:

      re;mike@3.54pm

      Blimey, sounds like they are coming over all hippy mann. Bits of paper on pretendy trees, whatever next. Usually they would pledge money, now they are pledging allegiance to Britnat british farming with paper apples. Where is all of the spare land going to come from for housing all that cattle and growing all those veg I wonder.

      Just at shops earlier, can’t avert your eyes from huge britnat flags on the veg that is being grown in little britain, just a wee bit in your face. The courgettes looked minging, better get growing more veg folks,small organic farms are going be in huge demand as well.

      A good year for apples, and plums. Means next year could be bad, expect huge hikes in veg prices next year folks.

    93. Rock says:

      galamcennalath,

      “TMay … ” I take comfort that the General Election saw the threat of nationalism set back “

      In the sense that the Tories took a bit of a hammering, I would tend to agree.”

      Not in Scotland.

      In Scotland, despite winning the most seats, the SNP took a hammering with support falling from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      Admit it or not, Nicola was outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other.

      They achieved exactly what they wanted – force Nicola to dither about a second independence referendum.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Scotland can never win as long as it plays by Westminster rules.

      Catalonians have a spine, Scots don’t.

    94. Simon Curran says:

      Talk of Tories axing Mrs May are somewhat over hasty but when / if they do select a new leader they have to be very careful. It is possible to think of possible successors who would appeal to English constituents but might have the opposite effect on voters in Scotland.

    95. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I can see huge deflections coming along about Catalonia which will be used to our disadvantage.
      The discussions will probably be all about the absolutely appalling behaviour of the Spanish Government in Catalonia and about the (entirely predictable) initial EU response to it.

      The discussion should however be about the inalienable right of self determination of the people of Catalonia. This will be swept under the table or, if it is referenced at all, it will be met with a fusillade of legal and constitutional nonsenses.

      I hope the Scottish Government recognise the importance of this.

      A constitution and its laws are only legitimate if they are supported by a majority of the people who live under them. If a majority of the people of Catalonia reject the provisions of the Spanish constitution it has no validity or legitimacy in Catalonia. It’s called “democracy”.

      David Hill

    96. stewartb says:

      O/T

      The map on the front page of this SG document looks good does it not?

      http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0052/00525147.pdf

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      yesindyref2
      Thanks for the EU update, still too early to tell. 😉

    98. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT But anyone watching BSB from Assen there is an enormous Saltire spread out on the ground – made me smile!

    99. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “A constitution and its laws are only legitimate if they are supported by a majority of the people who live under them.”

      What utter nonsense.

      The “plebs” have zero control over the constitution and its laws.

      In any legal case, the constitution and its laws will be looked at, not what the “plebs” think of them.

      In our own backyard, the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      They don’t give a damn of what the “plebs” support.

      I can say with 99% confidence that Nicola will not dare defy Westminster and hold an independence referendum once Saint Theresa has refused permission.

      But if by 1% chance she does, I can say with 100% confidence that the “the constitution and its laws” will not be on her side.

      The fascist British state is much much worse than the fascist Spanish state.

    100. Shinty says:

      yesindyref2 @6.09pm I’d say her croaky voice was a ploy to engender sympathy, pretty standard stuff for the weak. “poor thing”.
      ____

      agree, pretty much the same for the recent clip I’ve just watched of Jackie Baillie (especially given her recent claim to fame)

    101. heraldnomore says:

      Meanwhile, anyone had a reply from NTS on the matter of our favourite lank-haired ‘historian’?

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      @stewartb
      Yes, that map does look VERY good. Interesting to see Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania included. I did a google map 🙂

      @CameronB Brodie
      Indeed it is too early, but I don’t think it looks promising so far.

      It only takes good people to turn a weak blind eye for wrongness to prevail.

    103. Brian Powell says:

      Who gives a damn about what the BritNats say about Catalonia, we continue our own direction.

    104. Meg merrilees says:

      mike cassidy @6.58pm

      Basically the website is telling you that there were 844 wounded according to the separatists and 33 police according to the interior minister. Lots of images were tweeted and relayed on social media but some are in fact manipulated and not true records of the so-called events described in the title.


      Sunday has been marked by shock images of police violence in Catalonia but certain shock images have been manipulated:
      Photo one:
      A video which has been shared thousands of times on twitter shows the police abusing several people in the street, among them a young ma n and a young woman.

      WHY IS THIS FALSE?

      The headline denounces ‘The Spanish police attack Catalan voters”
      This image is nothing to do with the vote organised on Sunday, 1st October, 2017. It refers, in reality to a demo against austerity in Tarragona, 14th November, 202, where the demonstrators are being reprimanded by the Mossos d’Esquadra ( the local Catalan Police)

      2 A handicapped person is assaulted … in 2011

      basically just goes on in this vein to explain that this image – sent around the world to show the aggression even against disabled people was actually taken during a police intervention in 2011.

      3 an emblematic cliche – but manipulated

      10,000 relays of this image on the internet, from twitter. One sees here the Catalans opposing the representatives of law and order, and a national flag appears in the middle of the crowd.

      WHY IS THIS FALSE?

      This image was taken on the day but the photo has been retouched to add the flag.

      4.
      An old image of firefighters opposing the police.

      Basically the heading is
      Brave catalan firemen
      Lots of people have retweeted this but basically it is an image from AP Paco Serenelli
      Agency, taken during a demo against austerity in Barcelona, 29th May, 2013, in which firemen took part.

      Four tips against false information.
      Use out tips to help recognise false information.

      True or false -use outré site to search( click to access)
      To recognise a ‘trick of the eye’ use our download our programmes from Chrome or Firefox
      If you want to read true information online, read our advice to avoid false info.
      Need help verifying an image/ Use our Facebook robot…

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Nana posted a contrasting pair of very interesting articles on ukconstitutionallaw:

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2017/10/03/javier-garcia-oliva-the-referendum-on-catalonian-independence-the-position-of-the-spanish-authorities/#comment-74119

      and

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2017/10/03/elisenda-casanas-adam-the-referendum-on-catalonian-independence-the-position-of-the-catalan-authorities/

      One issue addressed in the first is the sovereignty in the Constitution, the sovereignty of the Spanish People. But the problem for me is that while the Spanish people might have sovereignty for themselves as a whole group, do they have sovereignty over a part of Spain that is also a group, and would claim its own sovereignty (i.e. right of self-determination as to the form of government it wants)?

      It does, by the way, show that Constitutions should be very carefully written. For instance, iScotland’s Constitution should inherently (not explicitly) allow the Island Councils to go for a referendum on Independnece if, for some odd reason, that was their wish. Basically referendums should always be “legal”, in my view.

    106. Welsh Sion says:

      Mike Cassidy @ 6.58

      Mike, I am a professional trilingual translator and if I wasn’t doing paid work ATM, I’d happily shape this better.

      However, this is for you courtesy of Google Translate (which I rarely use in professional contexts.)

      I hope it helps you in some way.

      ____________

      Police violence in Catalonia: watch out for misleading images
      The day of Sunday was marked by police violence in Catalonia, but some shock images were manipulated. Explanations.
      THE WORLD | 02.10.2017 at 12h20 • Updated on 02.10.2017 at 18h19 |
      By Adrien Sénécat
      Subscribe from 1 € Share Add Share (22 381) Tweet
      Real violence, but sometimes false images. The clashes between the riot police and the independence sympathizers made 844 wounded on Sunday October 1st, according to the regional government. At least 33 policemen were also injured, according to the Spanish Interior Ministry. Some scenes of violence have been immortalized by Internet users and have circulated widely on social networks in recent hours. But other messages, equally relayed, put forward images manipulated. Return on four of them.

      1. Police officers beat citizens … in 2012

      WHAT RUMOR SAYS
      A video shared thousands of times on Twitter shows police officers raping several people on the street, including a young man and a young woman. “The Spanish police attack Catalan voters”, denounces the message that accompanies the images:
        
      WHY IT IS FALSE
      These images have nothing to do with the vote held on Sunday 1 October 2017. They actually date back to 14 November 2012, during a demonstration against austerity in Tarragona (Catalonia), where participants were repressed by Mossos d’Esquadra (the Catalan regional police force).
      14N: Brutal paliza de los “mossos” has a menor

      Your browser does not support inline frames or is currently configured not to display inline frames.
      Click here to visit our HTML5 video.

      0:00 / 0:38
      2. A disabled person assaulted … in 2011

      WHAT RUMOR SAYS
      A photo shared thousands of times on Facebook shows a man on a wheelchair taken to task by a policeman, baton in the air. “The day when Catalonia wants to vote for independence, this is one of the images I hope to make around the world,” comments this page, which denounces police violence:
        
      WHY IT IS FALSE
      The photography is real, but there also ancient. The cliché was actually taken in 2011, during a police intervention against the movement of “outraged” in Catalonia.
      3. An emblematic but manipulated cliché

      WHAT RUMOR SAYS
      More than 10,000 Internet users have relayed this image, presented here on Twitter as worthy of the prestigious Pulitzer Prize. There are Catalans opposed to representatives of the forces of order, a Catalan flag emerging in the midst of the crowd:
        
      WHY IT IS FALSE
      The image seems to date back to the day of the vote in Catalonia, but it was retouched, the Catalan flag having been added to the middle of the crowd.
        
      4. An old photo of firefighters who oppose the police

      WHAT RUMOR SAYS
      “A valiant Catalan firefighters”, “a symbolic image of the policy of division of the government Rajoy …” Many observers have relayed this picture featuring firefighters standing at the front against armed policemen in the context of the referendum of independence:
        
      WHY IT IS FALSE
      The photo, however, has nothing to do with actuality. This is an image taken by AP Paco Serinelli’s photographer during anti-austerity protests on 29 May 2013 in Barcelona, ??a protest movement in which firefighters took part.

    107. Chick McGregor says:

      Old joke applied metaphorically of course.

      “It’s not the coughin’ that carries you off,
      It’s the coffin they carry you off in.”

    108. Robert Graham says:

      Eh silly question is Rock always this cheerful ?

      I haven’t really followed his posts, so just asking .

    109. mike cassidy says:

      Meg Merrilees 8.39

      Many thanks for that.

      Be careful out there in socialmedialand.

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      Without commenting on the specifics, there are almost certainly some false images that were sent around the world, and retweets. There was a retweet on Catalans for Yes for instance supposedly from Tusk condemning the violence against the citizens on Oct 1, but as that seemed unlikely I did a very quick check on Tusk’s quite short timeline and found the tweet was from Aug 17th about the Barcelona terror attack.

      Supporters of a cause – the Catalans and us – should be very careful about rebroadcasting such things, and should check them out before enthusiastically endorsing them, as it only needs one or two false flags to allow the other side to discredit the lot, including genuine stuff. And we ourselves should repudiate them.

    111. mike cassidy says:

      And thank you Welsh Sion 8.44 as well

    112. Meg merrilees says:

      Puigdemont has accused King Felippe of ignoring millions of Catalans – looks like they will declare Indy next week.

    113. Meg merrilees says:

      part of the debate in europe today… https://twitter.com/mattcarthy/status/915600381924790277

      Sinn Fein view.

    114. Meg merrilees says:

      Yesindy ref2

      Wasn’t Joanna Cherry herself caught out by something recently!

    115. Shinty says:

      DMH – A constitution and its laws are only legitimate if they are supported by a majority of the people who live under them. If a majority of the people of Catalonia reject the provisions of the Spanish constitution it has no validity or legitimacy in Catalonia. It’s called “democracy”.

      I’m borrowing this, OK? Might help me get through to a few skulls.

    116. Legerwood says:

      yesindyref2 @ 7.32

      “”I haven’t given up on the EU yet, but am moving towards EFTA and the EEA plus our own trade agreement with the rUK, get a “Nordic Rim” future for iScotland. For me, the EU is failing its strongest test since Greece (and Brexit). It hasn’t learned jack shit.””

      How did the EU do in relation to NI and the troubles? Was that a test?

    117. Could someone explain the parameter/boundary as to what size of region can vote to become free and independent from country/nation,

      where/when does democracy say “nah you`re too wee”.

    118. Lenny Hartley says:

      BBC news saying the big worry in Catalonia is civil War between Yes and No Catalan’s WTF they can’t help their selfs.
      Toodlethenoo reckons the Maybot is toast
      Florence and the Machine saying they did not give permission for their tune to be used .
      Omni Shambles of a conference, No chance of an early general election (again) although I can see her getting ousted soon. Just a thought the coughing fit started after she got her P45 , can stress bring it one? Think she went to pieces like her graphics after the P45 stunt, not the calm and reassured type of person who has control of the Nucleur button is it?

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      Yes she was, forget what, and a shame too, but at least she apologised for it.

      Both the SNP and YES needs an intelligence and counter-intelligence unit to go around, see the wrong stuff being tweeted and flag it up as at least “Caution”, to prevent it doing the rounds. Maybe with a unified twitter account as that’s where most of this stuff comes from.

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      @Legerwood
      The EU seems to be doing OK over NI, but then it is a co-signator with the UK over the Good Friday Agreement, so it is observing the treaty. What the EU needs to be able to do is work outside treaties if they don’t be specific on anything, and be able to move faster and particualrly, even-handedly. Spain is difficult for it, but it really needs to be more flexible and less lethargic.

      How it does this while respecting the sovereignty of its members is anyone’s guess.

    121. Meg merrilees says:

      yesindyref2

      Wasn’t it connected with the infamous QT nursegate affair, something to do with the nurse being married to someone when she was single???

    122. Phronesis says:

      A view from Catalonia and why the leaders of the EU need to show fortitude and leadership in their condemnation of the Spanish Government;

      ‘The critical question after Sunday’s Catalan referendum and the violent response of the (Spanish national) police now is: how long will the Catalan people resist peacefully the police attacks? Someone in Madrid is maybe dreaming that terrorism will wake up in Catalonia in order to transform a political problem into a public order problem?…

      Instead, what we urgently need is the EU to wake up. Not to push for Catalan independence, of course, but to push for democracy and to defend its own principles and values: that a EU member cannot use its armed forces against its population and to preserve the EU subsidiarity principle, which does not end in the EU/Member States relation…

      To pretend that Catalonia’s claims are a domestic Spanish affair and be silent once again is not a democratic option. To prioritize nation states over citizens is not a European option. The EU must intervene and mediate in the conflict. Even independence supporters in Catalonia thought that the conflict would end as the Scotland/UK one: with a devolution max promise and an agreed referendum. This is the democratic solution that Spain is surprisingly rejecting and the EU must try and force…

      Today, Europe must decide if it serves the citizens or the states, if it is an economic cartel or a social construction’

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/eu-states-citizens

      The world desperately needs a new model of democracy that is achieved through a peaceful consensus by an engaged and educated electorate that has been given the time and the available resource to understand the arguments for its autonomy- that would be Scotland.

    123. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Rock at 8.20

      Obviously you don’t understand English. No point in engaging with you – but them we have known that for some time

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      An interesting analysis on Rajoy, possible suspension of Catalan’s government and forcing elections there, or even a potential national election to try to strengthen Rajoy’s hand (a la May).

      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-rajoy-analys/spanish-pm-seeks-safety-in-numbers-before-playing-catalonia-trump-card-idUSKBN1C92K7

      Mmm, a la may, alamo, spot the difference. Ground control to Colonel Ruth. Spot the connection!

    125. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 8.23

      Agree entirely

      But I think “legitimate” is a better description of referenda than “legal” as law can formed with ill intent which is bad,undemocratic etc but all free referenda are in any democratic sense legitimate

    126. Still Positive says:

      Dave Mc Ewan Hill @ 11.44

      Totally agree. Are you going to the SNP conference? If so I hope to meet you for a wee discussion.

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Interesting paper referred to in the second paper I linked to above:

      http://idpbarcelona.net/docs/blog/legality_referendum.pdf

      which discusses a few options for a “legal” referendum, but which would generally need the Spanish Parliament to agree.

      So while Independence might be against the Constitution, anyone who argues that a referendum itself is against the Constitution is telling porkies. There may be some pressure on Rajoy to finally agree one, externally but also from opposition parties.

      What’s interesting is this – when various EU spokespeople talk about being within Spain’s Constitution, are they actually aware that it can be easily arranged to have a totally legal “advisory” referendum, which could then be followed by discussions about changes to the Constitution, perhaps a Spain-wide referendum on that, and then Independence for

      Because of Brexit I think the BBC are following through on this story quite fairly, and if the EU doesn’t apply some pressure even behind the scenes, it may well reduce the current polled 65% support in Scotland for Remaining in the EU.

      It is a test of the EU, and it is good that pressure is kept on them. Yes I know, there is no person such as “the EU” 🙂

    128. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Still Positive at 12.24

      I am. I suspect I will be on the voting papers as David Hill, mind you as the party usually refuses to let me use my full name.

    129. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 12.30

      Ideally the EU should suggest it supervise a referendum in Catalonia and call Spain’s bluff.

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 4 October, 2017 at 10:46 pm:

      “Could someone explain the parameter/boundary as to what size of region can vote to become free and independent from country/nation,
      where/when does democracy say “nah you`re too wee”.”

      I’m going totally on memory, Scot, but it has nothing to do with size. Far as I remember it went along the lines of, “Any identifiable of people”. The criterion is thus quite loose but one measure was if they had their own language.

      For example the Romany people have their own language but are drawn from a large group of countries. Another example is how the native people of North America are called nations not tribes.

      As are The Inuit, (Eskimos). These are a group of culturally similar indigenous peoples inhabiting the Arctic regions of Canada (Northwest Territories, Nunatsiavut, Nunavik, Nunavut, Nunatukavut), Denmark (Greenland), Russia (Siberia) and the United States (Alaska). Inuit means “the people” in the Inuktitut language.

      It is often really a cultural thing. Then we have the Australian aboriginal peoples and the New Zealand Maoris.

    131. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Indeed it should.

    132. Lenny Hartley says:

      Seen a tweet about Maybots speech by a Phillip Sym of the BBC, presumably works at Holyrood as most of his other tweets mention there, for some reason my iPad won’t copy the tweet but referring to the letters of the slogan falling off he says this
      “We’ve also dropped an E which actually starts to explain some of the things that have happened in the last hour ”
      Superb, can’t see him getting promoted to merika anytime soon!

      Dorothy, ain’t watched all the BSB at Aden yet, what race did u see the Saltire?

    133. auld highlander says:

      Just watched the guy handing her the P45.

      What an absolute farce, faulty towers in real life.

    134. boris says:

      The Spanish government is falling back on nineteenth century legislation to resolve a twenty-first century difficulty. The UN needs to step-in with an updated statement of policy, confirming it will recognize Catalonia as an independent state based on the expression of free-will by its people.

      https://caltonjock.com/2017/10/04/north-lanarkshire-labour-tory-unholy-alliance-fought-tooth-and-nail-to-deny-women-employees-equal-pay-and-pension-rights-but-lost-after-a-long-battle-what-a-shower-but-the-voters-love-them-j/

    135. Petra says:

      @ Scot at 10:46pm ….. “Nah you’re too wee.”

      What about Liechtenstein Scot? Doubly landlocked, area 62 sq miles, population 37,000 and one of the richest countries in the world. Linked to Switzerland in some way. Too late to check the latter out. Even smaller countries; Monaco and San Marino.

      ……………..

      One of the strangest anomalies in relation to the Catalan situation, for me anyway, is that of the Republic of Ireland which called UDI from the UK in 1919. Leo Varadicar has stated that he respects the territorial unity of Spain and doesn’t recognise the result of the Referendum as it’s illegal under Spanish law. He has said that he’ll be discussing the crisis with Rajoy when the “opportunity is appropriate” and that violence is never justified. Eh! Kind of ironic don’t you think?

      In his opinion the Scottish referendum was totally different as it was legal under British law. British law? The Republic of Ireland? You couldnae make it up.

    136. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Phronesis @ 23:22,

      I heartily agree. This unfortunate business is becoming as much a test for the EU as it is for the Spanish Government. Sooner or later the EU is going to have to deal properly with the issue of legitimate* secession within a member country, and not just wilfully “pass by on the other side”, looking the other way.

      If members of the EU proceed to maintain that some extra-treaty issue such as the supposed sacrosanctity of existing borders is paramount over any actual treaty provision such as civil rights, the EU will surely fail, condemned as hypocritical.

      On the other hand, arguing that somehow the answer is for Scotland to join EFTA instead is a complete non-sequitur if ever there was one. By taking offence at something we think the EU can and should do, we instead have a strop and deliberately choose to render ourselves powerless instead?

      We would be foregoing a prime chance to actually participate and influence the further development of the EU in a positive direction for the sake of joining an organisation that has no power or influence whatever. (For about the same cost into the bargain!) That doesn’t make any sense.

      We don’t exist in isolation, as if the outside world can be made to disappear by some supreme act of wishful thinking. Surely the whole point of having an independent country is so that we can do as much good as possible in the outside world, as well as doing as much good as possible at home?

      *(I use that word very deliberately. The weaselly use of “legality” as a fig leaf to cover embarrassment at supporting brutal state suppression of all peaceful democratic possibilities, is thoroughly contemptible.)

    137. Still Positive says:

      Personally, I think it is far too soon to be making decisions re EU.

      We all are appalled by the violence in Catalonia on Sunday but that is not a reason to decry the EU whose hands are tied.

      I agree that they were far too slow, and too few, in condemning the violence by the Guardia Civil.

      Let’s just try to keep a level head and see what transpires.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      I think I could maybe make a case for EFTA but Still Positive is right, it’s too soon, we need to wait and see what does happen. Howsoever just as a taster, within the EEA via EFTA we can still contribute to various funds, and get benefits from them. EFTA has some influence even without a vote in the EU, and Scotland would strengthen that influence without overwhelming EFTA as the UK would.

      On defence terms Norway for instance is well respected and had or has the secretary General of NATO plus flagship in 2017 of NATO’s Standing Maritime Group 1 (SNMG1), which “From the North Sea to the English Channel and the Baltic Sea to Iceland, the group participated in several multinational exercises and conducted continuous patrolling, providing the Alliance with immediate maritime capabilities and maritime situational awareness.”.

      Still in defence there’s NORDEFCO “The main aim and purpose of the Nordic Defence Cooperation (NORDEFCO) is to strengthen the participating nations´ national defence, explore common synergies and facilitate efficient common solutions.”

      Like the Swedish Red Cross, Scotland could have a Scottish Red Cross, and augment that via the military for instance, with a hospital ship and freshwater producing ship in convoy with a large deck amphibious carrier (perhaps £400 million) with for instance a few F35-Bs, Merlins, but also transports fixed and rotating wing, and escorts of our own and also say with Norway and Denmark. Capable of defence in a combat zone, you let us tend the wounded and give you water or we annihilate you!

      And my favourite, a diplomacy degree in several Unis – an advance on the usual boring International Relations. Plus a diplomacy corps, independent of government. Got a conflict or a problem like Spain and Catalonia? Send in a big MacDiplomat.

      I could go on …

    139. yesindyref2 says:

      Ach, one more for luck:

      http://www.efta.int/about-efta/european-free-trade-association

      Key Figures
      The four EFTA States are open, developed economies with trade figures that are substantially higher than might be expected from a total of less than 14 million people. EFTA is the ninth largest trader in the world in merchandise trade and the fifth largest in trade in services. EFTA is the third most important trading partner in goods for the EU and the second most important when it comes to services.

      I like the autonomy, and sovereignty that EFTA gives. But:

      Three of the four EFTA States contribute to cohesion in the European Union through a separate arrangement, the EEA and Norway Grants.

      So it helps the EU as well, and promotes friendly relations, and friendly relations gives influence. Soft power rather than a vote, plus membership on the EEA Council.

    140. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Headline from Herald: “Scottish accountants lose their independence“. Bad SNP, bad Scottish Government?

      Nope, a couple of firms have been taken over by Baldwins in Staffordshire, a bit more you could say, asset-stripping. Like Scott Lithgow being the flagship of the Trafalgar Group sort of thing. How proud Thatcher was of that. I’ll shut up now.

    141. F-cough, Treeza.

    142. Breeks says:

      The “knack” with sovereignty is not just what it’s based on, but also the recognition it has.

      Even legit sovereignty that is competent in law is worthless if it is not recognised as sovereignty- like Scotland. That is why it is imperative for Scotland to secure a judicial ratification from the Court of Session, or the UN or Europe that Scotland’s sovereignty be recognised, even before the UK splits, even before there is a majority for Indy.

      If Scotland has a legitimate claim on sovereignty, that sovereignty like all sovereignty is absolute, and if the international community is satisfied it is competent in law, then it will also be recognised. People are wrong when they say there are different kinds of sovereignty, but that is not correct. Sovereignty is one thing, an indivisible absolute binary condition.

      The problem for Catalonia is they had no statue of their own to make their democratic referendum legal, the only statute was Spain’s which had declared the referendum illegal and unconstitutional. The constitutional lawyers in the International community need a bigger peg to hang their coat on than just a democratic vote.

      If Scotland goes into the next ScotRef campaign before addressing this issue of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty, Scotland’s sovereignty too will be unrecognised, disputed, and thus the recognised and undisputed sovereignty of Westminster will prevail. When that is the scenario, Westminster is in very strong position to dispute and bedevil Scotland’s claims on Independence. They can dispute the sovereignty, dispute the legality, dispute the franchise, declare the referendum advisory, and demand it is re-run. We could suffer the same mess and uncertainty as Catalonia.

      Scotland is sovereign, we have legal legitimacy, but all of it lies buried under three centuries of constitutional sophistry, broadly accepted convention, mind altering propaganda, much of which is deliberate subjugation.

      If we want Scotland’s democratic referendum to stand tall in the eyes of the International community and carry the day for Scotland, then we should stop dicking about with mandates, polls, and aspirational constitutions which have yet to be written, and fretting about the horrors of Brexit. First, foremost, and fast, we need to get our constitutional house in order.

      If the people of Scotland are sovereign, then the International community which we expect to recognise Scotland as an independent country will have to be made aware and satisfied that Scotland’s sovereignty has legal legitimacy. Do that before the vote, not after, and we save ourselves an inordinate amount of stressful claim and counterclaim, and constitutional uncertainty of the type which is now going to bedevil the Catalans for months, and probably I fear see some of them losing their lives and liberties.

      We can save ourselves the same game of constitutional jeopardy by making EVERYBODY aware that Scotland has constitutional sovereignty. By everybody, I mean everybody, from the 16 yr old voting on his birthday to the Orange Order monkey polishing his buttons, from the bureaucrats in Westminster to the bureaucrats Brussels and New York, EVERYBODY needs to know that Scotland’s population has civic, popular sovereignty, and that Scotland’s “Independence” is not the creation of a new country, but the emancipation of an old one. Everybody in every London news studio has to know that it is Scotland, not Westminster, who has the final say.

      Scottish Independence is not about creating anything, it is all about discrediting the lie, and proving the unconstitutional Act of Union CANNOT overturn or usurp our sovereignty. That is the essence of our struggle. That is the point of origin from which everything else is a consequence.

      It does not require any democratic majority in Scotland to do this. It is simply good housekeeping for Constitutional lawyers dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s. It doesn’t sound inspiring, but it will do the job all the same. It is NOT a UDI, because the “U” part, the Unilateralism is nonsense if the International Community recognises Scotland’s Constitutional law, and “D” part, the Declaration, already happened 700 years ago.

      Our Independence is delivered because the competency and legitimacy of the Act of Union is discredited, and Westminster is thus powerless over Scottish affairs and jurisdiction.

      Once the penny drops and you see the picture in focus, you realise that the ScotRef is a red herring. We do not need a referendum to choose between constitutional rectitude and unconstitutional nonsense. Debunk and get rid of the nonsense, and whatever remains will be Scotland’s inalienable Constitutional Sovereignty. Get rid of the lies and all that remains is the truth.

      We will be Independent in everything but name, pending only the formal collapse of the untenable Union, but a collapse we are in a position to manage and mitigate, and hopefully keep peaceful. Indeed with Brexit issues and English public opinion, it might even be amicable… well you never know.

      By comparison, hold the referendum first, like the Catalans have done, and we will be Independent in nothing but name, and we will be buffeted and bullied by everyone who then contests our right to sovereignty. It is going to be an acrimonious mess and people are already getting hurt.

      If the SNP is serious about our smooth and non violent ascension to Independence, then Brexit and ScotRef become largely academic. Nicola Sturgeon once said the issue between Scotland and Westminster will end up in the constitutional courts. She was right, and wrong. It WILL end up in the Constitutional Courts, but the error is that it ought to be there already.

      We should right now be presenting our sovereign credentials to both the UN and ECJ for acknowledgement and validation, pending the constitutional review of United Kingdom’s disputed integrity, with consequences of the Union’s dissolution predicated by a remedial democratic plebiscite in Scotland.

      In short, get our Sovereignty in the bag, make the UK Union untenable, and then exercise our sovereign democracy to decide by consensus how we clear up the mess.

    143. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Breeks

      I agree with much of what you write, my view is that sovereignty is asserted, you don’t ask for agreement or approval, you state it loudly, frequently, boldly and others can accept or oppose it – but its not up for debate or adjudication.
      Thats where we should be & we need to raise public awareness of our right as a nation.

    144. Nana says:

      http://indyref2.scot/olivers-apologist

      A Year of Brexit Uncertainty Lies Ahead: Deal, No Deal or a Second EU Referendum by Autumn 2018
      https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-3494

      Scottish Scientist wins Nobel Prize for Chemistry
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/

      http://indyref2.scot/we-have-to-stand-beside-the-catalans-if-they-declare-independence

    145. Nana says:

      COUGH COUGH: WE’RE OUT WITH NO DEAL
      Theresa May quietly resigns Brexit negotiations to the dark cupboard, along with Britain’s future.
      https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1861

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/priti-patel-public-spending-regulations-after-brexit-2017-10?r=DE&IR=T

      https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2017/10/04/heres-footage-outside-theresa-mays-speech-really-wont-want-see-video/

      Strong chances of Brexit no deal, but UK government may collapse – Scottish minister
      http://archive.is/MZzyi

    146. mike cassidy says:

      How does a country become a country?

      http://archive.is/3hqHp

      The comments stream is also interesting.

      eg here for Kosovo

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Kosovo

    147. mike d says:

      Agree with jock McDonnell 8.22am. We should be shouting about our sovereignty from the rooftops,and ramming it down westminsters throat.

    148. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Breks @ 8.08am

      Well said that man, I could not agree more.

      I have long wondered why the Scottish Government has not taken our case for sovereignty of the people of Scotland to the Court of Session for ratification.

      Then, armed with this, we can tell London and the world – the Act of Union was a blatant power grab by our nobles, for their own self-interest, the Union has been a sham and this should be enough to persuade enough soft Nos to turn to Yes.

      Just because we’ve been being conned for 300-plus year, does not mean we have to continue to put-up with it. This knowledgte, plus Brexit is the perfect storm, and we will be free.

    149. Macart says:

      Mornin’ Nana

      Byline piece is a good catch and well worth reading. I don’t think the author’s wrong and the dissection of the speech was pretty clinical.

    150. Desimond says:

      2 things

      Why did BBC Scotland insist on calling a Comedian who has had commissions from BBC, a “demonstrator”…TWICE

      And am I the only one who looks at the pictures and wonders what that Union flag thing they use at the front of the podium is…what is it exactly?..half a union jack and half a dulux wall chart?

    151. Dorothy Devine says:

      nana , coffee at the ready – love the canary video!

      Lenny , you must be on a phone or tablet – Assen not Aden, brilliant first race Leon won but Shaky came from 17th on the grid to take 2nd.
      Second race was pretty good too Silvain won – which made a wee change!
      Big Saltire each time they completed a lap – pretty poor crowd though , nothing like MotoGP size.

    152. Scott says:

      MSPs unanimously agree to bar Tory Alexander Burnett from submitting parly questions for two weeks as a sanction for not declaring interests

      Has anyone seen this reported on BBC oh forgot he is not a SNP person.

    153. Clydebuilt says:

      O/T. The first comment posted on following link contains a link to an article from the newsnet.scot archive from October 2012. Refers to a meeting between the Ruth Davidson and the Spanish P.P. And hints at A deal to gain Spanish opposition to Scottish Independence.

      http://indyref2.scot/has-madrid-leant-on-the-ec-again

      Clicking on the link produces the 403 Forbidden message . As does attempting to access the newsnet.scot site by other means.

    154. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      Theresa May quietly resigns Brexit negotiations to the dark cupboard, along with Britain’s future.
      https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/1861

      Good article. Probably correct!

      The UK negotiating tactic of prevaricating or going off at a tangent has been either incompetent or extremely clever, so clever no one can make sense of it. The other rather obvious conclusion is they simply don’t want talks to succeed. They never wanted them to succeed.

      If true, and they simply want to walk away from the EU, then they are going to have big problems with the Irish border and with IndyRef2 here. Perhaps iEngland matters more than an ongoing UK.

    155. Street Andrew says:

      I thought Theresa May’s conference speech was excellent – as a speech.

      It was well constructed well delivered (the coughing was overstated and she got the lovely little ‘freebie from the chancellor’ joke in) and a letter falling off the scenery? Anybody watching the scenery wasn’t paying attention.

      The difficulty I had with her speech was the CONTENT.

      She wasn’t describing a World that I recognise nor was she describing a future which I believe she can deliver. Even if she sincerely means to do anything good for the general population all her efforts will be for naught because the control is elsewhere. The big power brokers will distort May’s empty and optimistic words into policies which will suit their rapacious thieving agenda.

      When will people cotton on to the fact that a Tory Prime Minister is not in charge of anything except her wardrobe. (And possibly not even that)

    156. Ian Dick says:

      Sky News caught out Tory leader’s speech from the ‘West Wing’ TV show.https://twitter.com/D_Raval/status/915618207343480833

    157. Nana says:

      Morning Macart, I don’t think J J Patrick is wrong either.

      James Kelly has an interesting article this morning re the need for a section 30 order

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/the-attractions-of-holding-referendum.html

      @Clydebuilt

      According to a poster on the blog, newsnet were hacked on Tuesday night. Was fixed but looks like the site is down again.

    158. Valerie says:

      @ Mac art

      The By line article on May speech, is by James Patrick, the ex cop turned journalist. He is getting good recognition, and does good investigative work, such as dark money funding the DUP. He has often referred findings on to Police or regulating body, and openly reports it on his Twitter.

      One of the good guys, that I always read.

      Things not looking good at all on Catalonia. Watched some of the European Parliament debate, some of it very disappointing, with notable exceptions like the Green group.

      They denounced the violence as appalling, no ifs or buts.

    159. galamcennalath says:

      TMay’s defence of the UK sounds like a defence of the EU …

      http://archive.is/B8Sqp

      It would appear that she believes she needs to put up arguments for her Union.

      Why? If we stay in the single market, their Union is not at immediate risk.

      Conclusion … TMay knows IndyRef2 is coming.

    160. Ken500 says:

      The Tory was not only cheating expenses but getting local Gov contracts and despite repeated warning was totally overcharging. Came last in any elections. It is just a disgrace. Enough is never enough for some multimillionaires. May on £2Million of perks. A total disaster in every way. It is just disgraceful the way they carry on. Johnstone is disgusting. A clueless idiot. Roll on another election. To get the Tories out. People in Scotland kept these low lives in power. How misguided. They do not care about anyone but themselves. Could they make a bigger mess.

      The Tories are taxing the Oil & Gas sector at 40% since Jan 2016. Importing Oil & Gas. Fracked Gas from the US and Gas from Norway. Putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt. Then claiming Scotland is not doing so well economically because the Westminster ignorant incompetents have destroyed a major economic base. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Repeated time and time again.

    161. Street Andrew says:

      Breeks says:

      Sounds like you are talking sense.

      Given the European roots of much of Scottish law, EU judgement ought to be more understanding of Scottish constitutional rights than English Laws constructed to legitimise rapacious colonialism.

      A detached house must have its own foundations. The English like to regard Scotland as a lean-to annexe clinging to its North-facing wall.

      Well bugger that.

    162. heedtracker says:

      We don’t exist in isolation, as if the outside world can be made to disappear by some supreme act of wishful thinking. Surely the whole point of having an independent country is so that we can do as much good as possible in the outside world, as well as doing as much good as possible at home?

      You’re maybe forgetting Scotland is out now, or very nearly. Britnat’s say Scotland would never get back in to the EU. EU says nothing. So lets get there first.

      State violence like what the Spanish police inflicted on people, clearly trying to provoke civil war, has had the tacit approval of the EU.

      Because of that, if and when it does come to the crunch, Scotland does actually get to vote on a EU membership application, I do not want an outfit like this wading in to Scotland’s affairs, in all kinds of ways. Let alone having to jump through all kinds of hoops to get them to even allow Scotland membership, waiting pen included, for years… when the EU union that is clearly not what it presents to be at all.

      Spanish state levels of violence are ofcourse nothing new. Its common. Look at what happened in 30’s Germany But in 21st C Europe?

      There was a good BBC r4 news interview on Sunday maybe, with an English academic explaining that Catalan’s have been and are still subjected to a pervasive and orchestrated bigot campaign, by the rest of Spain and the Spanish government, prejudiced and bigoted and in real danger of turning extremely violent.

      But Brussels goes mute.

      Salus populi suprema lex esto. Salus populi suprema lex esto.

      Or the safety of the people should be the supreme law.

      Thought I’d chuck that in for dilettante prick spotters like Lochside, btl WoS:D

    163. Valerie says:

      @ galamcennalath

      Yes, she knows indyref2 is coming, AND, not much reported, but she has finally sought a meeting with Nicola. Coming North of the wall to beg to stop resisting the EU Withdrawal Bill, to beg her to start co operating. All these months with no meetings, and she comes begging.

      BTW, not reported.

      Yesterday, Beth Rigby, Political correspondent on Sky reported –

      Johnson doing tour of exhibition in hall, so I approached him, but was hustled away by his security, for asking about Libya.

      There’s your free speech.

    164. Macart says:

      @Nana

      I don’t believe James Kelly’s opinion is far wrong either. Section 30 is preferable because its clean, neat and ties both parties to an agreed conclusion (unless there is a material change of circumstance). How and ever it’s not the be all and end all.

      A consultative referendum carries weight and precedence as we’ve seen from the EU referendum and is the fallback position should Westminster decline a Section 30. It’s all about need and necessity.

      We’ve had two referendums with constitutionally incompatible outcomes. Both referendums results now carry legislated weight for the Scottish population, yet so far as Scotland’s population are concerned, only one outcome can be permissable. If Scotland’s population are indeed partners and not prisoners of our political union, then they and they alone must be allowed to determine their constitutional, political, cultural and economic future.

      Slightly over fifty percent of the electorate voted to retain political union with the UK three years ago. Slightly over sixty percent voted to retain political union with the EU one year ago. Having others decide our fate isn’t democracy and can never be accepted as such.

      FWIW to any unionist readers. If folk voted no in 2014 and intend to vote no again, then do so, but don’t EVER give up your personal right to choose. Don’t EVER give up your right to hold a ballot at a time of your choice. Too many folk made sacrifices in our history just so that we ALL had that right. You use it or you lose it.

      Anyways, as I was saying. If people are determined to have and make a choice based on events and material changes since September 2014 (and there’s been a few, let’s face it), then there will only be a narrow window of opportunity in which to do so. When Brexit concludes, the wall comes down like a hammer and our economic and political fate is sealed for the foreseeable future.

      If Scotland’s population is determined to be internationalist rather than isolationist, self governing rather than devolved and empowered rather than helpless in the face of such events, then there’s only one choice to make. (shrugs)

      @Valerie

      Yeah, been keeping my eye on that. Next couple of weeks especially are going to be tense for the Catalan people.

    165. heedtracker says:

      All these months with no meetings, and she comes begging.

      One of the weakest ever UK PM’s too.

      No doubt Whitehall are currently busy with their The Vow 2.0, vellum this time, on a velvet pillow, in a glass case, carried by royals level flunkies, fanfare trumpets and all hand signed by Teresa, with a quill:D

    166. Breeks says:

      Jock McDonnell says:
      5 October, 2017 at 8:22 am
      @Breeks

      “I agree with much of what you write, my view is that sovereignty is asserted…”

      I agree Jock, asserting sovereignty is one thing, but recognition of that sovereignty is not in our power to grant. We must still make the case for its legitimacy and trust in international law and constitutional justice. But our case and provenance is thoroughly compelling and well documented. The only anachronism in the Scottish Constitutional timeline is the curious period of false Union and how it survived this long.

      The second point too is that sovereignty is not just limited to what powers we can assert. it is equally binding and important in what powers it prevents others from asserting. It’s a common expression that attack is the best form of defence, but with in my opinion a defence of sovereignty is arguably the best form of asserting it.

      Brexit is less vital to us as a decision to be in or out of Europe, (a thing we can decide for ourselves later) than it is as a brazen challenge to Scotland’s sovereign mandate to remain. Westminster’s headlong, Reckless advance to Brexit, contrary to popular wisdom, contrary to the democratic will of Scotland’s people, should be the definitive constitutional test case which breaks the back of the Union.

      We remain in Europe by default, as we would exist as sovereign remnants of the UK inside the EU after the greater part of the UK decided to leave. That is the sovereignty we should be asserting, and whether the EU would accept that or demand we reapply for a new membership could I feel sure be creatively engineered to be the all important International Recognition we would require.

      That incidentally (not aiming at you Jock) is why I get so angry about EFTA. Fighting to defend our place in Europe can and will deliver a sovereign Scotland recognised internationally, with powerful friends to help look after our interests while we get up on our feet. EFTA gives us nothing but EFTA, and tacit acceptance that Brexit can be forced upon us against our sovereign will. We will have thrown away our most powerful arguments for a blistering constitutional test case, and for what? Are we taking up whaling again? You think EFTA has any leverage over Westminster? That is nonsense. There might well be an argument for EFTA, but frankly I don’t care because this is neither the time or the place for having it.

    167. galamcennalath says:

      @Macart @Nana

      Section 30

      I cannot imagine WM agreeing to another Section 30.

      Cameron only agreed because he believed a YES win was impossible and it would put Indy to rest for decades.

      Of course, as things turned out he only won by making wild promises which deceitfully bought his NO win. And we are where we are with nothing settled.

      A YES win would now seem a credible possibility, at the absolute minimum, and perhaps even highly likely with a catastrophic Brexit! Why would WM even contemplate another Section 30 ?

      They literally have nothing to gain and a great deal to lose, on the face of it.

      Personally I think it’s time England went its own way, but because of the inherently imperial nature of English Nationalism it won’t be easy to sell the idea that it’s time they stood up on its own two feet in the world!

    168. Lenny Hartley says:

      RJS tell me this when the UK crashes out of Europe without a deal and Tories at their conference were saying the should go WTO rules with Europe and an Indy Scotland has a choice of being a full EU member trading with the remains of what was the UK under WTO rules or being in EFTA with negotiating tariff free access to same , what would you prefer?

      Dorothy yeah it was the IPad that changed Assen to Aden, I’ve been to several MotoGP’ there between 1981 and 2002 and a few World Superbikes and the Superbike crowd is very small compared to the MotoGP.

    169. galamcennalath says:

      An important, and oft ignored aspect of Brexit ….

      ” Because of the scale and remoteness of its farming and rural industries, Scotland receives 16% of all of the UK’s CAP funding. At present that money is given to Scotland separately from its Treasury grant and from the taxes raised in Scotland; that grant and tax leaves Holyrood with funding equal to about 8.9% of total UK spending – a lower proportion than it gets under CAP.

      [Fergus] Ewing said he feared UK ministers would insist that after Brexit, agricultural funding be wrapped up in the general grant for Scotland and not ringfenced. That would mean cuts to farm and rural subsidies or cuts to other public services. “

      In other words, the amount available to pay subsidies to hill farmers and crofters could half. I cannot see WM Tories continuing to give Scottish remote farms the level they receive from the EU.

      Forget Tory voting, Range Rover driving, large scale farmers of the Lowlands …. the very fabric of both society and landscape in Highlands and Island is under serious threat here because remote small family farms and crafts rely on subsidies to exist.

      http://archive.is/uxaJl

    170. Ken500 says:

      If the choice is Independence with EFTA. Or no Independence with full EU membership. What is it to be? Independence with EFTA and a choice of future full membership.

      Or no Independence.

      What’s more important Independence or EU membership.

    171. La Belle Angele says:

      OT- Reply from NTS re complaint about our favourite lank-haired ‘historian’?

      “Thank you for your email. The National Trust for Scotland is a politically neutral charity and has no interest in any individual’s political views.

      Our job is to protect the wonderful places in our care and share and celebrate Scotland’s amazing history and spectacular scenery with as many people as we can.

      The role of President is largely an ambassadorial one, supporting our fundraising and engagement activities and spreading the word about our work generally, so in looking for a new person to take on this role the Trust was looking for someone who could help us take that message to even more people.

      Neil Oliver has done a fantastic job in promoting the heritage, history and archaeology of Scotland and that clearly chimes with our objectives as a charity. These are the skills and qualifications which led to his nomination and appointment.

      We look forward to working with him to build even more support for our charity and hope you will consider staying with us on that journey”

      Regards,

      Clint

      Clint Merrington, Customer Services Manager
      the National Trust for Scotland

      So there you go, no mention whatsoever of Neil Olivers biased views!

    172. Ken500 says:

      Scotland gets more CAPfunding because it has more wider rural areas as a proportion of the land mass. Ie it is to produce more food thoughout the EU. One if the reasons the EU was formed. Europe was starving after the 11WW. To prevent war and increase production.

    173. Valerie says:

      Would be REALLY interesting if Nicola announces at conference intention to seek Section 30, with same caveats, need Brexit outcomes.

      One thing I’m not clear about, is if May is meeting Nicola prior to conference, cos I bet May is desperate to meet before SNP conference, to at least seek assurances.

      I read the James Kelly blog. Not often I disagree, but I certainly do on his thinking that Scots would not experience what the Catalans did!

      I tend to look at the evidence on that. Apart from all the obvious state sponsored violence, there is a fairly large proportion of the South that despises the jocks, and we need put in our place.

      Just like the EU and immigrants, we are the subject of the media’s subtle hatred, disrespect, ridicule.

      I genuinely think at least half the country would applaud some good old fashioned violence up here to put the porridge wogs in their place.

    174. Ken500 says:

      Moir Lockhead. First Bus millionaire. Farm outside Aberdeen. National Trust. Masons?

      First Bus private company making vast profits got £17Million subsidy from ABerdeen City Council.

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      That is indeed the question, and one which the People of Scotland deserve to be asked. The EU has advantages, so does EFTA and the EEA. A case would need to be made by supporters of either option, so we could choose which we wanted.

      It could well be that Indy + EFTA + EEA, with freedom of movement but a customs and trade agreement with the UK, would give us, to use that old quote, “The Best of Both Worlds”. And the chances are EFTA would quickly arrange a trade agreement with the rUK as well, which as members of EFTA we could use ourselves, or (I haven’t checked out if this is allowed by EFTA) have our own separate agreement with the rUK.

    176. Meg merrilees says:

      La Belle Angele

      NTS ” Neil Oliver has done a fantastic job in promoting the heritage, history and archaeology of Scotland”

      Isn’t this the same Neil Oliver whose programme about Orkney and the history of the north of Britain never mentioned the actual word ‘Scotland’ ever??

      Please correct me if I’m wrong- I would hate to make such a grave mistake.

    177. Ken500 says:

      The National Trust loses members, contribution and donations. Visitor numbers go down.

    178. I don’t see Westminster agreeing to another section 30, either, the unionists got their fingers burned the last time.

      They won’t do that again, and even if they were to be persuaded to agree another article 30, they would put so many caveats in the way to ensure they didn’t have to deliver it.

      Also they will have taken heart and be emboldened by the lack of international criticism over Rojoy’s government’s treatment of the people of Catalonia during the independence referendum.

    179. Meg merrilees says:

      Galamcennalath

      Good point, and isn’t Scotland the country within the UK that receives least per hectare, of the four nations, owing to the poor deal negotiated on our behalf by WM.

      Shafted at every turn!

    180. Robert Graham says:

      Discussions about that wee plook on Spain’s arse ( Gibraltar ) have gone from the headlines , its been knocked off top spot by Northern Ireland by the looks of it .

      As our Imperial Masters dont do negotiations in public , shadey deals cant be done in full view of mug public ,its way above our heads , we simply wouldn’t understand the big picture .

      aye right , a slight of hand is being enacted right now .and it wont be for our benefit .

    181. heedtracker says:

      One if the reasons the EU was formed. Europe was starving after the 11WW. To prevent war and increase production.

      Indeed Ken. But Switzerland is also a very rural country, as is Norway. Both are far more developed than Scotland, decades ahead. Italy, Austria, France, Spain, are all very rural.

      Much of Scotland’s rural areas are practically inaccessible back waters, blood sports arenas for a couple of months to the wealthy, effectively open air slaughter houses and ecological dead zones. The filthy rich owners of blood sport Scotland even have the gall to trouser huge EU subsidies, for destroying our country. Its a lotto win every year, for the richest, for killing everything in sight, across the Scottish Highlands.

      Nowhere else in Europe, apart from England, tolerates the environmental destruction on this scale but the EU keeps shovelling money into blood sports Scotland bank accounts.

      What do the EU say? meh.

      EFTA for me.

    182. heedtracker says:

      Doing the rounds online. At least the set holds up.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhNXJGmcqNI

    183. Valerie says:

      Oh right, we hear the disgusting revelations about Heath the day AFTER the Tory conference?

      Coincidence.

    184. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath 10.22

      Never say never, but that would be my feeling too. If it happens at all, then consultative would seem the most likely route and political/public pressure applied to ratify.

      Our situation as a nation partner to a treaty is the key. We’re not a region looking at secession, but a nation partner considering dissolution of a treaty. The outcome of any such discussion must ALWAYS be in the hands of Scotland’s electorate yes or no, right or wrong. It comes back to the question of willing partner or unwilling prisoner?

      Any referendum, S30 or no, is always going to be a gamble. It could be that the answer will remain in the negative, but the choice must always be ours to make and THAT is the real prize and precedent.

      There is one caveat to the S30 conundrum. If, through some quirk of fate, an S30 is granted, then you can bet your boots there’s only one reason likely behind it. It gives UKgov not just a stake, but a say in the proceedings just like last time. They’ll throw their entire weight behind any no campaign. That’s about the only reason likely to make a difference. It certainly wouldn’t have anything to do with open democracy.

    185. colin alexander says:

      @ Breeks and those who agree with his post.

      Totally agree.

      Let’s hope that the Catalonian situation has been an eyeopener for the SNP and they finally recognise that their indyref policy is not the simple answer it seems at first sight.

      Aye Scotland is not Catalonia, but there are similarities. The biggest one is a central govt that opposes an indyref and independence.

      Political conferences nowadays are stage managed for the TV cameras. A display of unity for show, so tricky topics are usually avoided.

      Will the SNP address indyref or sovereignty at their conference? Let’s see.

    186. heedtracker says:

      Isn’t this the same Neil Oliver whose programme about Orkney and the history of the north of Britain never mentioned the actual word ‘Scotland’ ever??

      He is. And he made an excellent block buster BBC archaeology docu series about the Celts of Europe too. It is really interesting, covering the bronze and iron age Celts everywhere across Europe and the UK. But this proud Scot, completely excluded Scotland’s Celts from his whole series.

      Why would a ferocious tory Scot Britnat like Oliver deliberately exclude Scotland from a Celtic Europe BBC tv documentary, especially since Celtic Scots were the only Celts to defeat the might of the Roman Empire, forcing them out of Scotland, making them build Hadrians wall, ofcourse creating the Scotland we live in today, and laying down a timeline for an England to appear, a thousand years later, changing the course of world history…and I just answered my own query there:D

      Never underestimate just how low gits like Oliver and ofcourse the BBC gimp network will sink, to undermine, denigrate and simply pretend Scotland no longer exists.

      Arise Lord Oliver.

    187. heedtracker says:

      Let’s hope that the Catalonian situation has been an eyeopener for the SNP and they finally recognise that their indyref policy is not the simple answer it seems at first sight.

      Trust a sneaky shit like you to try some ProjectFear with Catalonia. Is there anything you lot will not use to try and scare Scots away from nation statehood?

      No.

    188. Derek Henry says:

      There’s nothing stopping the SNP from doing this apart from the Space between their ears. Unfortunately, they have no idea how the monetary system operates.

      Italy is experimenting with giving tax-cuts to its citizens in exchange for public services?such as pulling weeds and cutting grass. Wow. What an amazing idea! The government issues a tax credit, and uses it to pay a citizen in exchange for the citizen’s services to the government. The government could even make this arrangement more formal by printing the tax credits on pieces of paper called “LIRIES” (or something like that) and paying for the weed-whacking services with this “cash.” That way the citizen who’s earned the “LIRIES” has the option of using them as payment to another citizen (who’d also like a tax-cut) for, say, a bag of potatoes. So, the first citizen pulls some weeds, gets paid in “cash” and then uses the “cash” to buy her dinner. If you thought about it, you could possibly run an entire economy in this fashion. The only thing you’d have to worry about, of course, is that the government might run out of the tax-credits it needs to pay the citizens to do the work! If that happened, where could the government possibly get more tax-credits? Could it collect tax-credits as “taxes”? Could it borrow them from all the street-sweepers and weed-whackers who’ve earned them? (In which case it would have to pay “tax-credit interest”?which just seems to exacerbate the problem!) Hmmm. I’m going to have to think about that one. But in the meantime, doesn’t this mean that any Eurozone country has the option to stay IN the Eurozone while at the same time operating its own local economy using its own local “sovereign” currency?

      Italy, is now experimenting with paying for public services with tax credits. Presumably, this is happening because Italy doesn’t possess enough Euros to pay its citizens to provide all the goods and services needed to maintain and run the public sector of its social economy. And Italy can’t “create” the additional Euros it needs because that prerogative is the exclusive right of the EU Central Bank which Italy, even as a sovereign member of the EU, has no control over. But, as the news article explains, Italy still needs to have the grass mowed and the weeds pulled in its public gardens. So it has decided (out of desperation, the article implies) to pay the gardeners with tax-credits. The gardeners are willing to do the work in exchange for the government’s tax-credits, because it means the Euros they earn (in other ways) can then be used to purchase goods and services rather than for paying their taxes. So, in practical terms, it is “just like” getting paid in Euros.

      This, in fact, is way more interesting than it seems. In fact, it might even be mind-expanding! Here’s why:

      Presumably, the tax-credit payments described take the form of notations on the gardeners’ tax account. An hour’s worth of weeding is noted as 15 Euros worth of extinguished taxes. If the gardener has a tax liability of, say, €3750, her taxes would be completely paid after providing 250 hours of weeding and pruning. After that, obviously, she’d have no more incentive to provide any services in exchange for the tax-credits. So the amount of services Italy can obtain in this fashion is directly limited by the amount of tax liabilities it can impose on its citizens.

      It would be possible, however, to structure the tax-credit payments in another way which would have a very different outcome. Instead of making the payment as a credit notation on a citizen’s tax account, the Italian government could issue paper tax-credits and pay them to the citizens for their gardening services. To be specific, this would be a piece of “official” paper, signed with an important signature, on which was printed something like the following:

      The Sovereign Italian Government promises the bearer of this paper ONE EURO of credit on taxes owed to the Sovereign Italian Government.

      This amounts to exactly the same thing as making a direct credit on a citizens’ tax account, but we now have set in motion a curious set of subsequent economic actions: Now, after an hour of weeding, upon receiving her 15 paper tax-credits?for convenience, let’s call them “PTCs” and give them the symbol ??the gardener can choose to do the following. She can put the PTCs under her mattress for safekeeping until the day her taxes must be paid. Or she can use the ?15 to purchase a lasagna dinner at her neighborhood trattoria. The owner of the trattoria is willing to accept the PTCs in exchange for the lasagna, garlic bread, and wine because he, too, has to pay taxes to the Italian government. So, for all practical purposes, receiving the PTCs is just the same as receiving Euros for him as well.

      Now we have to ask an important question: Is the amount of services Italy can obtain by issuing and “spending” its paper tax-credits still directly limited by the amount of tax liabilities it can impose on its citizens? In other words, if every Italian citizen theoretically has received enough PTCs to pay their taxes with—either having received them directly from the government for providing public services, or having received them from other citizens in exchange for lasagna dinners—will the citizens’ willingness to exchange real goods and services in exchange for the PTCs come to a halt?

      Crucially, the answer is No. This is because the act of “embodying” the tax-credits in exchangeable pieces of paper has given the PTCs a usefulness in addition to their usefulness as tax payments: This additional usefulness, of course, is the ability to use them to buy goods and services from other Italian citizens and businesses. Thus, the number of paper tax-credits in “circulation” could vastly exceed, at any given time, the total actual tax liabilities of the Italian citizenry. The PTCs would continue to be accepted for lasagna dinners, because the Trattoria owners know they can use the PTCs they receive to subsequently buy Italian shoes and motorcycles— in addition to using them to pay their taxes.

      It will no doubt have dawned on most every reader that what we’ve just created is “money.” Specifically, we’ve created what is called “fiat money”—which happens to be the kind of money the world has been using now for the past half century (ever since the U.S. formally abandoned the gold-standard in 1971). Having thus conjured a rudimentary image of fiat-money to life we should quickly make some important (and perhaps startling) observations about it.

      Observation 1: How does the PTC “currency” come into existence? The sovereign Italian government creates it. Paper tax-credits are not created by Italian banks, nor are they borrowed from China—or even the EU Central Bank. They are printed by the Italian government. Note: PTCs could also be created by the Italian government digitally—that is, with keystrokes that enter numbers in an electronic ledger of account. In either case, the point is ONLY the Italian government has the legal right to create them. Why? Because that is the prerogative of sovereignty and the definition of fiat money.

      Observation 2: How many PTCs can the Italian government create and spend? Or, to rephrase the question more precisely, how many times can the Italian government promise to accept one of its paper tax-credits in exchange for a Euro’s worth of taxes owed? The answer is simple: as many times as it wants! It doesn’t matter if all the taxes have been paid in full—it can still issue and spend the promise over and over again. The citizens will continue to accept the promise in exchange for real goods and services for two reasons: first, they know other Italian citizens and businesses will accept the promise as payment for lasagna dinners and, second, they know for sure that taxes due will come around again—and soon.

      Observation 3: If (as observation 2 suggests is possible) the Italian government just keeps issuing and spending its paper tax-credits (fiat money) to buy goods and services from its citizens, won’t the number of PTCs in circulation keep growing until, inevitably, the price of things in the Italian economy begins to skyrocket? A lasagna dinner that used to cost ?15 suddenly costs ?150! In other words: Inflation. The answer, of course, is Yes. So what can the Italian government do to keep a lid on the inflationary pressure created by its continued issuing and spending of PTCs? Two things:

      The government can continue to collect taxes from the citizens (or, if necessary, even increase the taxes in collects). Taxes will remove PTCs from circulation, reducing the number of them available in the market-place to buy lasagna dinners and Italian shoes. Taxes, then, have a dual virtue in a fiat money system: they continuously reinforce the citizens’ desire to earn the government’s paper tax-credits—and they drain the paper tax-credits out of the market place, helping to keep prices stable.

      2. The government can also create special savings accounts that citizens can put their excess PTCs in. The accounts would earn interest (paid by the government with new PTCs)—but the agreement would be that the citizen would leave their “old” PTCs in the account, untouched, for a period of time—say 10 years. This means a large number of PTCs which would otherwise be competing to pay for lasagna dinners would be replaced with a much smaller number of PTCs (the interest payments). The net result will be fewer PTCs buying goods and services in the market-place. If you want, you could call these special savings accounts “government bonds.”

      Historical Note: When the U.S. was in the midst of mobilizing to fight WW2 it was issuing and spending historical quantities of U.S. paper tax-credits (fiat dollars) to pay U.S. citizens to build battleships and bombers—and to pay the recruits in its growing army and navy. Inflation was, indeed, starting to become a problem. So what did the government do? Two things: it increased taxes, and it issued War Bonds. It even imposed a requirement that workers take a percentage of their pay in War Bonds. By 1943, inflation was brought back under control.

      Observation 3: What happens to the PTCs when they are presented to the Italian government as tax payments? The mind-money framework we learn from early childhood “tells us” that the taxes collected by a national government are what the government then uses to pay for public goods and services. Crucially, however, this IS NOT TRUE with a fiat-money system. Looking at the paper tax-credit system we’ve just described, it’s clear that (by logical necessity) the government FIRST issues and spends the paper tax-credit, then it accepts it back as a tax payment. At that point of taking it back, the tax-credit is of no further use to the government. It is simply cancelled: it becomes a particular citizen’s tax liability with a line drawn through it. If the government needs to spend another paper tax-credit, it simply issues a new one. (It is actually easier and more efficient to issue new tax-credits than to “recycle” old ones.)

      Observation 4: Is it logical for a sovereign government to borrow the paper tax-credits it has issued? Please try, for a moment, to wrap your mind around this question! Here is something that ONLY the Italian government can create, and something it can create as many of as it needs, at any time it needs them. Why would it ever want, or need, to “borrow” them from the Italian citizens? It is, therefore, illogical to imagine the Italian government ever being “in debt” to its citizens! The Government Bonds we mentioned previously are not a “debt” the Italian government owes to anyone—they are savings accounts which hold the citizens’ excess PTCs for a specified period time. When the bonds “mature,” the PTCs are simply transferred back to the citizen. In a fiat money system, therefore, it is illogical (and irresponsible) to imagine or describe U.S. Government Bonds as being the government’s “debt”—or, more specifically, to talk about that “debt” as being “unsustainable,” or to suggest the government cannot pay its citizens to undertake and accomplish some important task because it will “increase the government’s debt.”

      Having made these observations, it appears the Italian government has stumbled on an actual solution to the “austerity” it has been forced to impose on itself by the European Union. Except we must now confront the fact that the rules of the EU do now ALLOW Italy to issue and spend its own sovereign fiat currency! The only “money” Italy is allowed to use is the Euro—and the only way the Italian government can obtain Euros is either by collecting them as taxes from its citizens, or by borrowing them from the European Central Bank, which has the exclusive prerogative of issuing them. And these methods of obtaining Euros to spend are falling short of what Italy needs to pay its citizens to do. So…. Italy has decided to pay its citizens with tax-credits, and then (why not?) with paper tax-credits. And then, presumably, the EU says, “Whoa, hold on here! It looks like you are printing your own money, which is not allowed by our rules!”

      We could then proceed to an International Court in which Italy claims it isn’t breaking the EU rules because it isn’t printing “money” but is simply issuing tax-credits. The EU would then have to argue that “tax-credits” are, in fact, what “money” is! In making that argument, it would be forced to explain everything we’ve just explained which would, in turn, reveal and establish not only the absurdity of the Eurozone monetary system, but also that the whole world (including the U.S.) is misunderstanding and mismanaging its money system—and unnecessarily making a vast majority of the world’s citizenry miserable in the process.

      The SNP are being left behind and are quickly becoming a walkman in a world of i Phones.

      MMT held their first world conference last week and it was a huge success and Professor Bill Mitchell was at the Labour conference another success.

      Even Simon Wren Lewis has had to take a step back this week. If you look at his blog.

      Stephanie Kelton Bernie Sanders economic advisor hit the LA Times and is in the New York Post this week.

      http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kelton-pony-for-all-20170929-story.html

      The SNP need to wake up to the realities of the accounting between a treasury and a central bank and quick !!

    189. heedtracker says:

      Derek Henry says:

      Observation 1. Every other country in Europe is completely fine running its own fiscal stuff, but Scotland cant, because, just because because.

    190. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland must be one of the few if not the only country in the world that has to pay a tax to see another countries football team on their Telly yet have Scotlands own team consigned to the radio because the Broadcasters in Scotland wont show it

      Although we could pay SKY television a fee to see our National team if we’d like to
      It’s not that I’m a mad football fan or anything like that but it seems to me if you label it English or British it’s on the Telly and I’m not convinced in the slightest this has anything whatsoever to do with money

      It’s Identity!

      And Scotland’s not allowed to have that

      Scotland might be stuck in a Political Union but I’ll be damned no matter how hard they try to make me that I’ll ever be involved or altered into into something other than what I am, and that’s Scottish

      You can’t make me English, so stop trying, I don’t want to hear it or see it, I want my own stuff in and from my own country and If I do want to see Englands stuff it’ll be a choice that I make
      I’m really irritated with this stuff and you’re making it easier and easier to dislike you more and more England so leave me alone and let me get on with it thank you very much

      Those are my kind words, I have others less generous!

      Let’s take back control of our Tellys and stop throwing money over Hadrians wall to finance England,
      to borrow a Farage phrase

    191. Scott says:

      A better song for the Tory mob would have been..

      Send In the Clowns

    192. Brian Powell says:

      Derek Henry

      I think you forgot to mention Italy controls all its taxes and makes its own policy decisions, and that the Scottish Government controls part of one tax, controls few government powers which remain with Westminster and is subject to numerous policy decisions from Westminster.

    193. Derek Henry says:

      Heed tracker no they are not hence all the problems. They all gave up their currency sovereignty to join the Euro.

      They are currency slaves just like Scotland taken over by neoliberals and the banking cartels.

      The UK does the tax collection across the UK. Scotland is nothing more than a glorified county council. If you did the accounts for North Yorks County Council you would find it too has a ‘deficit’ that is filled by the block grant and whatever ‘borrowing’ HM Treasury permits.

      Here’s the gory details: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479717/statement_of_funding_2015_print.pdf

      So the leakage out of the arbitrary line of the Scottish border within the Sterling currency zone is to anywhere else in the world (including the rest of the UK) – and the rest of the UK saves a lot of Sterling. That leakage, plus any net savings within Scotland, is what causes the Scottish government sector deficit.

      Ultimately in the same way that Greece needs to tax German savers, Scotland needs to tax UK savers. To have the power to do that you need UK savers saving in Scotland’s currency which the Scottish government can control and if need be tax. Otherwise Scotland will run out of money as it all drains to the rest of the UK.

      Foreigners save your currency if they want to sell you more things than they want to buy from you. The floating rate would make sure that export+foreign savings = imports in terms of the Scottish currency.

      You can tax it because it is the Scottish currency, and therefore to transfer it to anywhere where it is anything other than inert it would have to go through banks that are licensed by the Scottish authorities to deal in that currency. They will do as they are told if they want to retain their licence.

      Oil is a hug red herring. An enormous canard. It becomes important because although all the dealings are essentially in US dollars and most of the balance sheet is in US dollars, when it is reported in the national accounts it is declared in the reporting currency – which is the Scottish currency. So it’s an accounting trick mostly to make the figures look ‘good’ superficially. The actual Scottish effect is just the fraction of the oil income that has to be physically exchanged for the Scottish currency – to pay staff, suppliers and of course the licence fee and other taxation for the resource.

      Spending only comes back if you have your own currency. If you use somebody else’s then it leaks into a different banking system. Greece spending ends up under the control of the Bundesbank. Similarly Scottish spending ends up under the control of the Bank of England, which is owned and directed by the UK government. As long as that arrangement stays in place, Scotland is owned and directed by the UK government – like any other county council.

      That is the key issue with fixed exchange rates. You end up with control of the money under some other entity which you have to follow the directions of.

      The only option we have to become independent is to float our own currency and create our own central bank. Anything elese is insane !!!

      Until then we can do what Italy is going to do.

    194. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Derek Henry at 11.27

      Perhaps you didn’t notice but the SNP had four of the world’s most prominent economists on board for the White Paper and have a well qualified team working a the moment on economic issues.

    195. heedtracker says:

      Herald yesterday,

      “The FM wrote the letter in March to formally request that the Prime Minister enable the SNP administration, through a so-called Section 30 order, to hold a second poll on Scotland’s future.

      But The Herald has been told by senior Whitehall insiders that Mrs May never formally responded to Ms Sturgeon’s letter, which followed a vote in the Scottish Parliament”

      Herald’s “FM” only and ” Prime Minister,” usual toryboy creep out word choices.

    196. Derek Henry says:

      Italy makes it’s own policy decisions ????

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

      Please ! And this was made up on the back of a fag packet.

      There is NOTHING ! stopping Scotland from doing what Italy is about to do issue it’s own currency by proxy.

    197. heedtracker says:

      Oil is a hug red herring. An enormous canard.

      It sure is friend, it sure is:D

      Why did you leave out the fact that its Scotland’s oil red herring canard too?

    198. geeo says:

      Breathtaking arrogance and utter bullshit from Derek Henry.

      Wee tip…

      The volume of pish you output does not affect the quality of your pish.

      Pish is pish.

      The SNP have run a country for 10 years, and made a good job of it, despite deliberate attempts to shaft them at every turn.

      But according to the seer here…they do not have a clue !!

      Aye…ok then.

    199. Derek Henry says:

      Perhaps you didn’t notice but the SNP had four of the world’s most prominent economists on board for the White Paper and have a well qualified team working a the moment on economic issues.

      Oh, I noticed all right full of gold standard fixed exchange rate neo classical nutjobs.

      That MMT economists could destroy in less than 5 mins.

      As Prof Bill Mitchell pointed out at the Labour conference

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=37027#more-37027

    200. Dan Huil says:

      The significance of the upcoming SNP conference is mounting. Now is the time for action.

    201. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic.
      Scottish Parliament TV. Debating Chamber. NOW.
      FIRST MINISTER’S QUESTIONS:

      http://tinyurl.com/yd8y6zyw

    202. heedtracker says:

      Look at the reality Derek, of not having another country run yours, like the Danes here, happiest country in the world too, apparently.

      https://www.ecowatch.com/denmark-record-wind-2290601752.html

    203. Derek Henry says:

      Geeo,

      I’m a very passionate SNP voter and voice for independence in these economic debates.

    204. galamcennalath says:

      Meg merrilees says:

      isn’t Scotland the country within the UK that receives least per hectare, of the four nations, owing to the poor deal negotiated on our behalf by WM.

      That’s my understanding. And it’s a double whammy.

      Firstly, as you say, Scotland is two thirds of the land area of the England and receives a small cut of the pie. And I understand that is still true even when you take account of the unusable land here.

      Secondly, the CAP total to the UK is proportionally low because Thatcher’s rebate was because she objected to high CAP payments. Accordingly the UK pays in less, gets less back.

      I have heard it said that a crofter in Connemara will receive twice what a crofter in Skye does because of these effects, at present.

      In the future that same Skye crofter can expect their subsidies halved again!

    205. Derek Henry says:

      Heed tracker

      I know the accounting reality.

      https://medium.com/modern-money-matters/savings-are-an-export-product-e1db780d1c1b

      The SNP don’t have a clue and will get left behind. The common Weal is quickly becoming a joke !

    206. galamcennalath says:

      Macart says

      If … an S30 is granted … there’s only one reason likely behind it. It gives UKgov not just a stake, but a say in the proceedings just like last time. They’ll throw their entire weight behind any no campaign.

      Indeed.

      While I think an S30 unlikely, I also can’t HMG advising a boycott by Naysayers, both voters and campaigners. They will want to oppose it in every way.

      So, yes, there might come a point where WM believes an S30 offers some benefits.

      Risky though. A YES win with S30 means a done deal. So WM would have a lot of weighing up to do on how to play IndyRef2.

    207. geeo says:

      There is a creeping train of thought that Cameron happily gave a Section 30 order last time.

      Did ye hell.

      He had no more choice in the matter than Theresa May has this time.

      By agreeing to the S30, the WM gov had a stake in it and were free to spin project fear.

      A referendum by the SG without a S30 means that the WM establishment are not allowed to interfere in OUR referendum.

      U.N. charter 1514, article 4 clearly states…

      4. All armed action OR REPRESSIVE MEASURES OF ALL KINDS directed against dependent peoples SHALL CEASE in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.
      …………

      THAT is why Cameron ‘agreed’ to the S30, not because he wanted to.

    208. heedtracker says:

      Derek Henry says:
      5 October, 2017 at 12:12 pm
      Heed tracker

      I know the accounting reality.

      If Scotland was not a rich country, in all kinds of ways, why are our chums south of the border, blocking all and any economic policy devo to their Scotland region Derek?

      And they alll promised economic devo The Vow style too, in 2014, if we just voted NO.

      “Lets call it devo-max” simpered bottox Bird, to Flipper Darling, in that great mausoleum of yoon Pacific Quay, last week of Scots ref1 campaign and one poll showed Scots were going YES?

      Flipper went on to get a seat on the board of Morgan Stanley. Bottox Bird got some more bottox:D

    209. Derick fae Yell says:

      yesindyref2 5 October, 2017 at 10:50 am

      To answer your question, EFTA trade agreements apply to all members, so yes, we would be party to any agreement with the rUK if we were a member.

      The UK is Norway and Iceland’s second biggest export market, so there would be considerable incentive for them to do a deal with rUK. Change the country profile to see the figures.
      http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nor/

      What is not generally realised is Scotland’s USP for EFTA. Our membership would strengthen and stabilise EFTA – five members being more stable than four. There are advantages to the existing members in accepting any application from Scotland.

      We are a good fit with Iceland and Norway particularly re fisheries and renewable energy. Similar with Switzerland and Lichtenstein re finance.

    210. Macart says:

      O/T

      Anyone else experiencing problems with text and imaging on the site?

    211. geeo says:

      Derek Henry says:

      5 October, 2017 at 12:08 pm

      Geeo,

      I’m a very passionate SNP voter and voice for independence in these economic debates.
      ……………..

      Stange that, because you seem like a pish talker from here.

      You are like colin the cock and his bum chum Rock.

      Desperate hatred for the SNP but claim to be supporter of independence.

      Nothing you have posted here is supportive of independence, all you posted was a tedious monologue of how you personally know better than the collective skillsets of a SNP government who have clearly done a stellar job over the last 10 years, in the face of a WM Gov determined to undermine said SNP Gov.

      Do not bother replying, you are on the slavering pish talk, ignore list.

    212. Breeks says:

      Derek Henry says:
      5 October, 2017 at 11:27 am

      Isn’t what you describe just the Italian Government augmenting it’s Euro economy with a government sanctioned black market economy using tax credits in lieu of currency?

      I’m sure a black market might work, they usually do for some, and by limiting the tax credits the government might have some control over that black market, but the bigger threat lies where that black market undermines and destabilises the Euro economy.

      I am not an economist, but as the economy crow flies, wouldn’t the shorter journey be to fix the Euro economy rather than devise even a clever workaround?

      Last point is that a difficult economy will devise its own black market anyway, and it’s a “brave” Government who would sanction it, nevermind operate it.

    213. Petra says:

      @ Valerie says at 11:10 am …. ”Oh right, we hear the disgusting revelations about Heath the day AFTER the Tory conference? Coincidence.”

      No coincidence of course Valerie. The Establishment in action. UK Tory PM (and the rest) raping wee boys! Stories too, not being reported by the MSM, of some dying and being thrown overboard from Morning Cloud. Links to Hamilton and Dunblane with the report being placed under a 100-year closure. Totally unheard of. Who are they covering up for?

      Whatever the case it’s still another massive nail in the Tory coffin and looks as though the Tories are just about over and out. We should all be focusing on Corbyn now, imo.

    214. Petra says:

      @ geeo says at 12:32 pm …. ”Nothing you have posted here is supportive of independence.”

      Some of your posts aren’t too helpful either for generating support for Independence Geeo. Pretty off-putting in fact.

    215. Breeks says:

      Macart says:
      5 October, 2017 at 12:32 pm
      O/T

      Anyone else experiencing problems with text and imaging on the site?….

      Well, Theresa May springs to mind….

      I’ll just get my coat….. cough! Cough!

    216. ronnie anderson says:

      I see we have another TallyWhaker on board today & as in the past/present Wingers jump at the bit .

    217. Macart says:

      @Breeks

      😀

    218. Petra says:

      We can all talk about Sovereignty, EFTA / EU, Catalonia, SNP Baad / good from now to Kingdom come. If we don’t get the support that we require to win the next Referendum we can forget it. It’s as simple as that.

      Nicola Sturgeon can’t do this on her own. SHE NEEDS US.

      And what we really need, imo, is for ALL of our amazingly talented pro-independence people / organisations to put their differences (big egos?) to one side and come together under the one umbrella such as the Scottish Independence Convention (SIC). SIC which could become the counterpart of the Assemblea Nacional Catalana (ANC) which coordinates their independence movement.

      SIC would then be the site that we would go to get facts / statistics that we require to win any argument instead of having to trawl all over the Internet, day in and day out. SIC could train activists, set up groups across the country, organise / advertise events, provide posters / videos and so on.

      Instead of us visiting one site after another to find that extremely innovative, highly intelligent individuals require financial to keep going on their own, thousands of us could help finance the whole kit and caboodle in one fell swoop.

      Maybe some of our more influential activists in Scotland should think of popping over to Catalonia to find out how the ANC works? How they all managed to put their differences to one side and actually get on with the job.

    219. I read that BDI’s managing director, Joachim Lang,
      Speaking at a conference in Berlin has warned
      German firms to prepare for hard Brexit or
      face heavy losses.
      “German companies with a presence in Britain and
      Northern Ireland must now make provisions
      for the serious case of a very hard exit.
      Anything else would be naive.”

      We must ensure that not only the Tories but also
      Corbyn and Labour own this impending disaster that
      is Brexit

    220. Dr Jim says:

      BBCs Bryan Toodle Ooh the Noo Taylor is definitely going mentally irregular now while interviewing his journalistic chums asking his pointed questions, if he doesn’t instantly hear the answer coming back he wants he answers his own question

      Oh, and comrade Harvies hammer and sickle is sticking right out of his tunic now, could just make it out behind his raised fist and angry grimace
      He wants no help for business in Scotland and everybody walks or takes the ever increasing amount of filthy diesel atmosphere polluting buses that never switch off their engines ever even when they’re parked, and hurt my lungs every time I breathe

      Maybe if wee Patrick lobbied for electric shuttles in town centres instead of moaning about a 00.02% increase in Airyplane emissions to help increase the economy so we can be Independent quicker I might have some patience with him

    221. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament TV.

      FIRST MINISTER’S QUESTIONS.TODAY. 05/10/2017

      Now Archived and available to view:

      http://tinyurl.com/ycpwf7qq

    222. Liz g says:

      Breaks 12.32
      Your probably right about the “black market” economy as described.
      But its worth thinking about if we have any difficulty getting our revenue re directed from the Westminster treasury to the Scottish treasury after the Yes vote is returned.
      Westminster, I think,will try and kick the can down the road for as long as possible and probably try to return our revenue streams piece meal.
      Not forgetting the outside chance that they will try and ignore the Yes result.
      That’s when Courts and people power AKA the Sovereign right to organise our society as see fit,come in to play.

      Anyhoo..

      RE…you’re earlier Sovereignty post….
      You stated that there are not different kind’s of Sovereignty at all,that it’s one thing and it’s ours!
      But then went on to talk about
      How we asserted it = Popular Sovereignty
      Using the Courts = Legal Sovereignty
      Getting it recognised = Political Sovereignty
      Don’t you see that there are indeed different kind’s?
      You identify them your self!

      Your post was spot on about what could/should be done with Sovereignty.
      And yes it’s plausible….. But here’s the rub!
      That’s how you think it should work Rather than how its actually working.

      I assume that the current SNP government being the best route
      out of this bloody Union, and the only game in town,so to speak, is no in dispute.
      Well Breeks they have chosen a referendum route at this point in time.
      Rightly or wrongly that’s where we are at.

      They want a mandate and then a vote and well…..were half way there.
      They (especially Nicola ) have said many time’s if Scotland wants out of its Treaty obligations just let them know and they will make it happen.
      No other political group are offering Scotland that…..so if they are choosing a particular route then we have to go with it.

      You could look at it as …putting and securing the most important Sovereignty first….the will of the people.
      Once you have that the lesser but also essential legal Sovereignty will follow.
      Those two together create the legitimacy of the politicians to govern and be recognized as the body with the power to do so.
      And we have to go with this because…. That’s the Scotland we are actually in and no the one we wish we were in..aye?

    223. galamcennalath says:

      I always worry when The Rev goes quiet 🙁

      He’s the main man, after all!

    224. louis.b.argyll says:

      Brian Taylor, what a miserable slimy git.

      He quite clearly makes the ScotGovs official statements sound flat, while showing much more audible variety when it’s Unionist statements.

    225. TJenny says:

      galamcennalath – I’m hoping Stu’s been at the dentist and then gone on to a movie, maybe. Fingers crossed all’s well.

    226. call me dave says:

      “Reverse this new WM cut please Nicola” begs Rowley at FMQ’s.
      £400,000 is a mere bagatelle is it not.

      Why cant he use the correct word ‘mitigate’for a start.

      The SG have mitigated so many cuts I’ve lost count, surely there must be no more loose change down the back of the Scottish sofa.

      No doubt they will come up with the money once again which is good.

      However it’s inevitable death by a thousand WM cuts unless voters realise this and get down to the polling station when next referendum is called. 🙁

    227. ronnie anderson says:

      The crowning glory, May Stealing her Words from Westwing .

      Plagiarism is the least of her worries .

    228. heedtracker says:

      Brian Taylor, what a miserable slimy git.

      He’s just another beeb ligger, making a lot of money out of Britnatism.

      News what BBC gimp network will not report, or pick up, I think UKOK hackdom calls it.

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-interview/strong-chances-of-brexit-no-deal-but-uk-government-may-collapse-scottish-minister-idUKKBN1C91SL

    229. TJenny says:

      And the main man tweets! Hooray. 🙂

    230. Petra says:

      @ Peter McCulloch says at 1:19 pm …. ”I read that BDI’s managing director, Joachim Lang, speaking at a conference in Berlin has warned German firms to prepare for hard Brexit or face heavy losses.

      “German companies with a presence in Britain and Northern Ireland must now make provisions for the serious case of a very hard exit. Anything else would be naive.”

      We must ensure that not only the Tories but also Corbyn and Labour own this impending disaster that is Brexit.”

      Spot on Peter we can’t afford to let Corbyn off of the hook, especially as the Tories seem to be dying a death much more quickly than previously thought possible and Corbyn / Labour is now on the rise. Well let’s face it, it’s the English electorate that dicates how we Scots will live and they have two choices with Corbyn looking to be the next PM. Add to that the mutts in Scotland that think that Corbyn (as long as he lasts until the situation changes) is going to do things differently.

      Our focus must be on reminding everyone that Corbyn, much as he tries to avoid the issue, is determined to drag us out of the EU. And then there’s Trident etc……

      ……

      @ Liz g at 1:34pm ……..

      Thanks for bringing some much needed down to earth reality into that particular debate Liz.

    231. Robert Graham says:

      SKY & The BBC giving good coverage to the Plastic Bottle problem and ideas on solving it , thats really commendable .

      Despite watching both Channels something missing , eh cant put my finger on it .

      Oh now i know it’s any reference to what the scottish government are proposing and way ahead of the rest,

      SKY must have made a mistake the first time they praised the SNP for having the foresight to try and address this problem , i guess normal service has been resumed after this lapse .

    232. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      what BBC gimp network will not report

      A fair enough article, as you say, not reported in Beebland.

      However, the last paragraph ….

      ” In a June general election Russell’s Scottish National Party suffered heavy losses – albeit from a very high level – and was forced to withdraw its offer of a new independence referendum as a result. “

      Eh? When did the withdrawal of an “offer” of IndyRef2 happen?

      Withdrawal of request for A30 in the short term perhaps, but IndyRef2 never came of the table!

      So why make this mistake in an otherwise factual report? Probably because the author was influenced by the deluge of UKOK propaganda.

    233. Robert Graham says:

      Oh dear dear Mayhem nicking someone’s speech Tut Tut .
      shes the gift that cant stop giving .

      Thanks for posting Ronnie i hope the gathers legs and spreads .

    234. Brian Powell says:

      Petra

      “Nicola Sturgeon can’t do this on her own. SHE NEEDS US.”

      Absolutely correct. Folk in Catalonia face truncheons, rubber bullets and intimidation to stand up and vote.

      Blogs here are full of complainers on why hasn’t Nicola Sturgeon saved us, why hasn’t the SNP done this or that. People got out into the streets, meet with each other, made their groups obvious.

    235. TJenny says:

      Eek! And now the tweet’s been deleted. 🙁

    236. heedtracker says:

      So why make this mistake in an otherwise factual report? Probably because the author was influenced by the deluge of UKOK propaganda.

      Yes you’re right. Oh god, mind what the author of this blog says about how readers never reach the end of news reportage!

    237. geeo says:

      Come on now Petra…if my words put someone off voting Yes then they were never voting Yes anyway.

      Perhaps i should run my posts past you first before posting for “approval”?

      Seriously…you overstate my influence.

    238. Petra says:

      @ Robert Graham says at 2:03 pm … ”SKY & The BBC giving good coverage to the Plastic Bottle problem and ideas on solving it, thats really commendable. Despite watching both Channels something missing, eh cant put my finger on it. Oh now i know it’s any reference to what the scottish government are proposing and way ahead of the rest. SKY must have made a mistake the first time they praised the SNP for having the foresight to try and address this problem, i guess normal service has been resumed after this lapse.”

      Robert, Gove announced his brilliant idea at the Tory Conference. The idea that he’s pinched from Nicola. Gove the Environment Secretary? What a farce. Ed Davey, the prior energy and climate change secretary, has stated that anyone who cared about the environment should be “deeply worried” by Gove’s appointment. “I didn’t think it could get any worse but putting Michael Gove in charge of the environment is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house. It’s bad news.”

      One wonders if Theresa May is actually right in the head. She’s appointed Gove as Environment Secretary, Johnston as Foreign Secretary and Fox as Secretary of State for International Trade. Sinister is what I call it.

      I can’t find a video of Gove’s amazing announcement, but this one mentions it.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmIKtVyX298

    239. heedtracker says:

      World Cup qualifying: Scotland v Slovakia
      Venue: Hampden Park Date: Thursday, 5 October Kick-off: 19:45 BST
      Coverage: Listen on BBC Radio Scotland; live text commentary on the BBC Sport website
      Former Scotland defender Willie Miller has warned the current team to expect a Slovakia side playing for a draw in Thursday’s World Cup qualifier.”

      Yet Beeb gimp network refuses flat out to show a rather important national sport match.

      If that’s not another clear display of how the britnats of the UK zone are trying to wipe Scotland off our mental maps, try this one,

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096j14n

      Singing for Praise and Profit
      Choral History of Britain, Series 1

      “Roderick Williams shows how Britain has become an astonishingly fertile breeding ground for the world’s very best professional choirs and choristers. He explores the hugely important role that our cathedrals and university chapels have played in sustaining these groups; plus the long, but not always illustrious, history that brought them here. And he asks what the future holds for this most British of musical institutions.”

      For Britain, its England ofcourse. This beeb gimp completely excludes Scotland as per, yet he relentlessly calls England Britain, and the UK, even in the Henry V111 period. Henry V111 was actually quite busy destroying southern S______d and Edinburgh at the time too.

      Its a bit disorientating listening to the twit, for a Scot, if only because he chunters on and on about his English only subject focused only on England, but well you know the rest:D

    240. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If anyone intends going to Glasgow, George Square on Monday for pro-Catalonia demo, please nip over to O/T and let us know, eh?

      😉

    241. Brian Powell says:

      So fishermen’s leadership backs the UK dropping out of all agreements so no other nations fleets fish in UK waters.

      My question is, why would any EU ports allow British fishing cargoes to land or be sent through any EU ports?

    242. Vestas says:

      The Catalan parliament has been suspended by Spain’s “Constitutional Court”.

      No doubt the EU will be rushing out statements about violating human rights like they did with Ukraine?

      No, I won’t be holding my breath either….

    243. SeanW92 says:

      Utterly flabbergasted at the news from Catalonia today, suspending their parliament and the BBC eating it up, forget the violence, forget the storm troopers raiding the streets?

      Hopefully the more naïve Scot’s amongst us WAKE UP. Any power structure ultimately is self serving, we do not live in a democracy neither here nor there. Fascist Corporate Capitalist system, Inverted Totalitarianism, in the words of Sheldon Wolin.

      My faith in humanity is havering, c’mon Scotland where’s the door!

    244. Petra says:

      @ Brian Powell says at 2:15 pm …. ”Petra

      “Nicola Sturgeon can’t do this on her own. SHE NEEDS US.” Absolutely correct. Folk in Catalonia face truncheons, rubber bullets and intimidation to stand up and vote. Blogs here are full of complainers on why hasn’t Nicola Sturgeon saved us, why hasn’t the SNP done this or that. People got out into the streets, meet with each other, made their groups obvious.”

      You know Brian it wouldn’t matter what Nicola does. She carries a massive burden on her shoulders and works, on OUR behalf, 24×7. If she moves too soon and loses the next Referendum, which may very well be our last, she’ll be castigated. If she’s seen to be dragging her feet that’s a reason for complaint too, even although we have absolutely NO idea what going on behind the scenes; what SHE knows. As Robert Peffer said recently ”like a duck seemingly sitting placidly on the water whilst their feet, out of sight, are paddling madly beneath” (or words to that effect).

      We’ve even got people online screaming for UDI. Well if nothing else the Catalonian situation should put paid to that because I’ll bet my bottom dollar the hellish situation they find themselves in will drag on for years.

      We’ve got a REAL problem in Scotland, imo, other than MSM bias, and one that’s got nothing to do with Nicola Sturgeon at all, and that is a lack of non-political LEADERSHIP. We’re all going round and round in circles talking, debating and arguing with each other (in a wee bubble) until we’re blue in the face. Meanwhile we’ve got an absolute wealth of talent in Scotland, the list is endless, as can be seen by the number of websites we visit, videos produced, but there’s absolutely no co-ordination at all of this Independence movement. We’ve got thousands of people chomping at the bit, the foot soldiers, as can be seen on here ready and waiting to get moving. What we need now is someone like a Tommy Sheridan type to pull the whole thing together and get them all singing from the same hymn sheet under one umbrella organisation, for example as mentioned previously the SIC.

      Time to stop blaming Nicola and question why so many people who have popular online sites aren’t doing something constructive to deal with the situation, especially as we are now running out of time.

    245. Liam says:

      It gets better and better:

      In addition to the coughing, the P45, the sign falling to bits, the bracelet with pictures of Trotsy loving Frida Kaho, and the unauthorised use of music it now transpires chunks of the speach were lifted from a TV show…:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-speech-latest-updates-the-west-wing-tv-show-match-speech-writers-address-conservative-a7982156.html

    246. mike d says:

      Great post petra.

    247. Effijy says:

      I’m travelling through Europe right now
      And travelling really does broaden the mind.

      I’ve previously posted the proof about how the
      So called British Army has used and abused Scottish
      Soldiers. From Wellington instructing his generals to send
      Forward to use up cannon and musket fire before the English
      Take part, through to more than 25% of First
      World war soldiers killed under the British flag were Scots, even with
      A significantly lower percentage of population,
      and size, due to a poorer diet.

      In Sicily I’m informed that when the allied
      Forces arrived there in 1943, it was decided that
      The English would occupy the Eastern ports and the
      Americans the Western ports, both of course
      Vacated by the Nazis who headed for the central mountainas
      Areas when their ships came into view.
      The English proposed that the Scottish and mainly Scottish Canadians
      Should be sent to the most inhospitable mountains and fight the last of the
      Experienced German troops, who were well dug in and with commanding positions.

      Scottish troops,people, jobs, and finance have always been a disposable commodity
      To our corrupt Westminster Masters.

    248. galamcennalath says:

      I’m sure others will agree that this letter about the way Brexit has been handled hits the nail squarely in the head.

      The letter isn’t especially anti-Brexit as such, however does tear the whole development, promotion, and implementation to shreds. Nothing in the history of these Isles has been so poorly conceived and planned.

      From the Northamptonshire Telegraph …

      ” Brexit is an act of national humiliation. We are the laughing stock of the world. “

      http://archive.is/0F2CH

    249. paul says:

      D Henry is right, currency sovereignty is a prerequisite of sovereignty.
      The SNP did consider this (the groat) but was dissuaded by the hard cognitive sell it requires and the flat earth advisors it had.
      The alternative they offered, the currency board, was impossible to explain (for the understandable reason that it made no sense) and had a recent example of failure in the velvet divorce of Czechoslovakia(The arrangement lasted about a week).
      They offered a terrible hostage to fortune with that policy and I have seen no indications that they are any better prepared next time.

    250. Breeks says:

      RE…you’re earlier Sovereignty post….
      You stated that there are not different kind’s of Sovereignty at all,that it’s one thing and it’s ours!
      But then went on to talk about
      How we asserted it = Popular Sovereignty
      Using the Courts = Legal Sovereignty
      Getting it recognised = Political Sovereignty
      Don’t you see that there are indeed different kind’s?
      You identify them your self!

      No Liz. It’s the same thing. An axe is still an axe whether it is red, green or polka dot, broken, stolen or blunt. In the definining sense that matters, the axe is still an axe. It is a binary and absolute condition- either it is an axe, or it is not.

      We have popular sovereignty, in the descriptive sense – it is of the people, not left in the hands of a monarch, god or government. The sovereignty is still binary, and absolute. The word popular merely refers to the mechanism which wields it, (although it simultaneously sources our sovereignty right back through history to the groundbreaking Declaration of Arbroath).

      Legal sovereignty simply means verification that the law which defines that our ‘popular’ sovereignty is legitimate and competent in Law. That it has not been repealed, altered or superseded, and remains on the statue. The sovereignty is still popular, still binary and absolute, but recognised in law as clear of any legal challenge.

      The political recognition of sovereignty means Internationally Scottish Sovereignty is recognised as supreme in Scotland. If recognised that we, the people of Scotland are sovereign, there is implicit recognition that nobody else is or can be. Westminster’s claim of Parliamentary sovereignty is thus busted, but not just by our criteria, but the international family of sovereign nations and governments.

    251. Jack Murphy says:

      Vestas said at 2:36 pm:

      “The Catalan parliament has been suspended by Spain’s “Constitutional Court”……….”

      Here it is on France24. In English language.

      http://tinyurl.com/y8dey8y2

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      @Derick fae Yell

      Yes, though “any new member state would have to apply to become a party to existing EFTA free trade agreements (Article 56(3))”

      This is the great thing though I just found, giving the flexibility the EU does not give:

      Can the EFTA Member States also sign bilateral free trade agreements?

      Yes, the EFTA States are not obliged by the EFTA Convention to conclude preferential trade agreements as a group. They maintain the full right to enter into bilateral third-country arrangements.

      which means even if EFTA had its own agreement with the rUK, Scotland could have the same one or our own tailored one, which is just the job.

      http://www.efta.int/faq

    253. Abulhaq says:

      That for 300 years we have been a bunch of saps does little for our dignity or our status abroad. England absorbed us, fact. We fancy we joined a partnership (some treaty or other) but England and practically everybody else sees annexation and regionalisation. We do need to stop crying into our porrage, wallowing in history and get our act together and cut the rusting chains. Then we will have our sovereignty back for real. Then we can look up and face the future we, as a free people, make for ourselves.
      The British state has never been more rickety. The Scottish bulldozer should finish it.

    254. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi geeo at 11:57 am.

      You typed,
      “Breathtaking arrogance and utter bullshit from Derek Henry.”
      and
      “The volume of pish you output does not affect the quality of your pish.
      Pish is pish.”

      Derek Henry has been posting on WOS since at least October 2014. I don’t think any of his previous comments have generated critiques such as yours.

      Here’s one critique from March 2016.

      ” Tam Jardine on 13 March, 2016 at 10:15 am.

      Derek Henry

      Some fascinating posts above giving a fresh perpective on some quite difficult concepts so cheers for that.”

      Tam’s whole post can be read at:-

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-infallible-obr/#comment-2121581

    255. yesindyref2 says:

      @Derek Henry
      MMT is interesting, I read the bilbo blog article, and it’s posted about quote a lot by ScottiDog who also posts here.

      I also agree we should have our own currency, though Salmond’s idea of the currency union was designed to minimise change and transaction costs for businesses and people traceling to and with the rUK.

      But you’re wrong about the SNP, and even Salmond, as there was the council of economic advisors including Stiglitz who considered several options

      http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0041/00414291.pdf

      plus somewhere there’s a much shorter report with at the end a one page A4 landscape summary of the currency options if I can find it sometime.

      You might disagree with their conclusions, but MMT is somewhat different to “the norm”.

    256. Nana says:

      O/T

      For those interested in the Catalan situation indylive is holding an interview later on with William Thomson.

      Commonspace journalist William Thomson joins us by Skype to share his experiences of the Catalan referendum and also discuss the potential next

      https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/InsideCatalunya

    257. Gary45% says:

      Abulhaq@3.47
      Nicely put.

    258. yesindyref2 says:

      @Derek Henry
      Ah, here we go, right under out noses!

      http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/FiscalCommissionCurrencyAnalysis.pdf

      Last page prints off very nicely on A4 landscape, I used it a lot for postings v unionists during Indy Ref 1 🙂

    259. schrodingers cat says:

      dads
      even if EFTA had its own agreement with the rUK, Scotland could have the same one or our own tailored one, which is just the job
      ———————-

      that will be a very important point of debate in indyref2, (see the rebuild hadrians wall mob greet when it would be them who would pay for it
      🙂

    260. AlbertaScot says:

      I know there’s been a lot of out pouring of joy on here about Nic’s ban on fracing.

      But there’s also an inconvenient truth about it.

      Banning something that has not occurred (on-shore shale gas development) is one thing.

      Although that also eliminates thousands of potential jobs and and many millions of pounds of economic activity.

      Except there one tiny problem. Part of the SNP aspiration of nationhood (of which I agree) is the assumption that the North Sea oil revenues comes with it.

      Talk of the Scottish Sovereign Oil Fund and all that stuff.

      I also agree.

      Now here’s the hard part.

      Every well in the North Sea is fraced. That’s just how the industry rolls.

      You’ve got to bust up the formation to get maximum flow to the well bore and those high porosity coral reefs that don’t require a high pressure bump are few and far between.

      The oil companies are also drilling horizontal wells with legs of a kilometre or more which require up to a dozen frac packages to complete the well.

      Again, that just how it works.

      So if you denounce fracing I guess you are required to also denounce the North Sea (And the suppressed West Coast Play too.)

      Don’t want to burst anyone’s balloon, but somebody clearly hasn’t thought this thing through.

    261. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      One problem for indyref2 is the YES voters who voted leave and might put that first (like Sillars), but the other problem is the YES voters who voted remain and might get indignant if the EU was not connected with a YES vote. It’s something clearly Sturgeon is well aware of (I think!).

      In that respect, perhaps the Catalan situation is doing us a favour, in terms of the EU response, which is abysmal so far, and it’s clear from the suspension that there were NO behind the scenes talks with Rajoy – so far at least.

      So there are advantages of EU and for EFTA, for me the trick is to take both out of Indy Ref 2, by either having a second question, or having a further referendum on EU v EFTA v WTO only.

      We only have to look at the heated arguments on Wings to know this is a divisive issue, so the trick is to unite all voters to vote YES, including the NO voting remainers who want the single market or the EU.

      No problem!

    262. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 2.25 pm

      It is quite surprising how many of the policies implemented by the Scottish Government have now become Labour and Tory policies e.g. tuition fees, council houses – although no mention of doing away with right to buy – plastic bottles etc.

      You get the feeling that if the SNP did not exist then Labour and the Tories would have to invent them otherwise they would not have any policies at all.

    263. Liz g says:

      Breeks @ 3.29
      I think we are talking at cross purposes here.
      Yes an axe might be an axe…..but is it a usable one?

      And for my money…
      Popular Sovereignty not framed by politicians and enforced by law is mob rule.
      All three elements are required for it to be of any use.
      Which I think might be your stance as well?
      Where we are differing is…
      I put establishing popular sovereignty first, and you are sayin we have it and we need to now line up legal Sovereignty and then political.
      Well while I agree we have it,I am not convinced that asking a judge to rule on it is the way to go.
      As I think I have said before….. You don’t take your neighbours to court for putting a fence on your property if they haven’t actually done it yet.
      We decided in 2014 to have our Sovereignty exercised according to the 1707 Treaty and unless and until we say different that’s the arrangement.
      A judges ruling would add nothing to this and I am sure you will agree no judge has the authority to rule on our Sovereignty anyway.
      Its being prevented from revisiting that decision that changes it into a matter for the Court’s to be telling the Politicians what to do according to law.
      But the Courts are no there to be pontificating on our Sovereignty till we have given them the written instructions (constitution) to do so,and we as Sovereign’s keep for ourselves the ability to change those instructions.

      Also in my view the Judges would see what you are advocating as trying to have them make a political judgement.
      Which they will avoid and say this is a matter for the politicians to work out.
      As they will, all the while claiming to represent “the will of the electorate” and there’s our popular Sovereignty being all taken care of by that lovely Westminster…. It won’t be lost to us just looked after for us, down in Westminster just like we “said” we wanted.
      Can ye no see why a vote is the first thing we should be attempting.
      If not we will just need to agree to disagree, either way we are heading to the same place and I think we will both have an approved definition of Scottish Sovereignty very soon.
      And we will probably both disagree with that interpretation of it as well…LOL…..or should I say cough cough and pretend that we are a wee bit on topic

    264. Hamish100 says:

      To the indy 2 ref folk now. We should be glad that we can watch and wait our time.

      Well many of us did suggest we should watch the Tories implode. Just didn’t realise it would be so funny. Now we still have the hugely interesting and nation building Scottish labour leadership show with. Whits his GMB name and dad tore up his brit passport for a wee jobby in Pakistan nonpersona
      Makes you wonder what tHe scotchlibbrits will do to upstage them all?

      Whaurs my Valium?

    265. Petra says:

      @ Effijy says at 3:07 pm … ”I’ve previously posted the proof about how the So called British Army has used and abused Scottish Soldiers…..

      In Sicily I’m informed that when the allied Forces arrived there in 1943, it was decided that the English would occupy the Eastern ports and the Americans the Western ports, both of course vacated by the Nazis who headed for the central mountains areas when their ships came into view. The English proposed that the Scottish and mainly Scottish Canadians should be sent to the most inhospitable mountains and fight the last of the Experienced German troops, who were well dug in and with commanding positions……”

      Effijy I hope you’re having a fabulous time on your travels; great weather and all that. What you’ve found there, and no doubt elsewhere previously, is the same story the world over. What annoys me more than anything is that the Scottish military never get a mention in the UK, however everywhere you go abroad the locals can’t speak highly enough of them…. plaques and monuments. Not just the Scots of course. Only the English won the wars by their way of thinking.

    266. Alex Clark says:

      @yesindyref2

      The EU or EFTA options for Scotland mean nothing without a Yes vote exceeding 50% of those that vote in a second referendum as we absolutely will be out of the EU.

      In many ways the White Paper produced by the SNP was in fact too detailed, there are many issues that in hindsight required proper debate and that never occurred. The EU and currency options being the most obvious.

      I see no need to be so detailed next time, if Switzerland can have 10 or even 20 referendums in a year so could we. Let the people choose what they think is best for them.

    267. Alex Clark says:

      Check the state of this LOL.

      Tony Blair tipped to become mediator between Catalonia & Madrid

      https://www.rt.com/uk/405802-tony-blair-catalonia-spain/

    268. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Sorry, just catching up again at the mo (since I do have an existence of sorts outwith WoS!)

      yesindyref2 @ 03:10,

      Yes, I like all the sorts of things that Scotland could get involved with as a fully independent country, as you suggest. It was that very possibility that converted me from a devo-maxer as the indyref started, despite all that pish about “the cost of all those new embassies” and suchlike.

      But in terms of the EU/EFTA debate, these eminently desirable things are all neutral. They could equally be exercised in either case.

      An independent Scotland could certainly exist in EFTA, just as the rUK could not (and has no interest in so doing either), but there has to be a far more positive reason for joining than “just ‘cos the English can’t”.

      I have, though, to seriously question the kind of wishful thinking that is indicated in the statement that “EFTA has some influence even without a vote in the EU”. There’s no evidence whatever for this. Besides, it’s weakness personified.

      This is the Achilles heel in the whole pro-EFTA position, the matter the proponents blankly refuse to acknowledge, the elephant in the EFTA room, so to speak. members of EFTA have to accept EU trading rules within the EU area, and have to pay near as much to do so without having any influence on the rules.

      So if sovereignity is your sacred totem, as it is for so many of the Leavers, what kind of sell is it to them to persuade them they will still “be under the control of the EU”, without even a proxy voice in the matter as we currently do? What kind of sell is it to all the Remainers, from whom we will certainly have to glean support if we are to win indy?

      This lazy assumption that some kind of “least-common-denominator” approach via EFTA is a win all around is, it seems to me, fatally flawed. And never addressed.

      But it will be by our opponents in indyref2, you can be sure of that.

      heedtracker @ 09:49,

      I’m not forgetting anything. But there’s a big difference being in a state of flux (as the entire UK clearly still is) or being actually out. Conflating the two is cheating.

      Personally, I still believe Nicola when she says we will get a chance to vote for independence while there is still time to influence that decision. To accept to implication is to surrender before the fight. You may be up for flying the white flag as the BritNats wish, but I’m not. And I’m hanging on to all my rhetorical ammunition, not casually throwing a large part of it away.

      Lenny Hartley @ 10:28,

      You are playing with loaded dice there, my friend. Let’s say the rUK does crash out of the EU as you say and has to trade under WTO rules – not at all an unlikely scenario as things stand – then it will have to negotiate with EFTA just as as it will with the EU, so the real choice in the situation you posit is, if anything, more in favour of the EU than EFTA.

      As someone else said, as a member of EFTA we would be free to negotiate our own trade agreement with the rUK. A poisoned chalice for any indyref, putting another loaded gun into the hands of the BritNats in exactly the same way as the “sterling union” did. I can just see it now, everyone lining up to tell us that if we dare to vote indy, they will put up the drawbridge on us. They tried that last time, you may recall. If we were in the EU, they just wouldn’t dare. Take on the biggest trading bloc in the whole world? Little EFTA just doesn’t have that kind of muscle.

      It’s actually to neutralise any danger of that argument that the SG is trying hard to keep the UK (as it currently stands) within some kind of free trade arrangement with the EU. I don’t think that’s always appreciated by the CA types (who have their own agenda anyway).

      Besides, if the rUK decide to go WTO, they will crash and burn, and anyone who is outside the crash zone by the time that happens – hopefully including ourselves – will be thanking their lucky stars.

    269. manandboy says:

      Just a reminder about increasing threats to Independence.

      It starts with fussing and fretting, arguing and disagreeing. And at the same time so many new names appearing in blogs and comments sections all over the internet, where do they all come from?

      Scotland’s Independence has many enemies including from overseas. The internet makes the world a very small place.

      Do we imagine we are not on the radar of organised cyber organisations with an anti-democratic agenda who are well capable of large-scale infiltration and influence of national conversations – like a referendum?

      We are not alone.

      Think back, David Cameron got all kinds of international figures to speak against us in 2014.
      Westminster and Spain have an agreement to act together against Catalan and Scottish Independence. Both governments have extensive and well funded cyber capabilities to interfere in web activity across the globe far less in Scotland.
      After the No result in 2014, the EU heaved an enormous collective sigh of relief.

      The world of politics and democracy and voting in elections is not what it used to be. No election anywhere is secure from cyber attack and the large-scale spreading of propaganda on social media.

      Safeguard your own personal choice to vote Yes, for there’s a lot of people around trying to get you to change your mind – about the EU, the SNP, Nicola, Independence and so on.

      When online, be very careful of the company you find yourself in and be very alert to ideas which are even remotely anti-Independence.

    270. Dr Jim says:

      @Alberta Scot

      The ban is onshore fracking and Scotland has no control over the North Sea it’s not ours and never has been

      It’s British so that’s the UK of England in charge of that

      getting the point now?

    271. Liz g says:

      AlbertaScot 4.59
      I think her missing the point.
      Naebuddy lives above the N Sea oil Wells.
      “””””””” Drink’s the N.sea
      “””””””” Makes Whisky from it
      “””””””” tours Scotland via the wells.

      Now while there might be an environmental reason/reasons to shut these well’s down.
      And do it as quick as we can.
      We canny do that till we get full control of our own resources and get our renewables up and running.
      We canny let people freeze.
      In the meantime those well’s might indeed be bad for the environment but two wrongs don’t make a right.
      So aye the ban is great news a step in the right direction don’t ye think?

    272. Petra says:

      @ AlbertaScot says at 4:50 pm …. ”I know there’s been a lot of out pouring of joy on here about Nic’s ban on fracking. But there’s also an inconvenient truth about it…”

      Firstly thanks for taking the time to post on here AlbertaScot. Much appreciated.

      In response to your post I’d like to say that the SNP Government haven’t banned fracking in Scotland as they don’t have the power to do so. That’s reserved to Westminster and you won’t hear the SNP use the word ‘banned’ at all. What they have done is put an indefinite moratorium on fracking.

      ”Although that also eliminates thousands of potential jobs and and many millions of pounds of economic activity.”

      Fracking in Scotland could lose us thousands of jobs / millions of pounds here in Scotland AS, such as in relation to our whisky industry, food industry, tourism and so on. And of course more than anything could impact greatly on our health.

      ”Except there one tiny problem. Part of the SNP aspiration of nationhood (of which I agree) is the assumption that the North Sea oil revenues comes with it. Talk of the Scottish Sovereign Oil Fund and all that stuff.”

      Over 90% of the oil is in Scottish water AS. We’ll be taking ‘it’ with us when we ‘leave’.

      Now here’s the hard part. Every well in the North Sea is fracked. That’s just how the industry rolls. You’ve got to bust up the formation to get maximum flow to the well bore and those high porosity coral reefs that don’t require a high pressure bump are few and far between. The oil companies are also drilling horizontal wells with legs of a kilometre or more which require up to a dozen frack packages to complete the well. Again, that just how it works. So if you denounce fracking I guess you are required to also denounce the North Sea (And the suppressed West Coast Play too.) Don’t want to burst anyone’s balloon, but somebody clearly hasn’t thought this thing through.”

      Fracking has already taken place on the Scottish mainland. I guess what we’re talking about here is the prevention of further fracking on land AS. As to not thinking it through it’s been discussed / considered for around 5/6 years now.

      If I’m wrong in what I’m saying AS, someone will no doubt correct me.

      Pleased to see that you support us. Keep in touch.

    273. Petra says:

      @ Alex Clark says at 5:22 pm …. ”Check the state of this LOL. Tony Blair tipped to become mediator between Catalonia & Madrid.”

      http://www.rt.com/uk/405802-tony-blair-catalonia-spain/

      For God’s sake are we never going to get rid of this wee manipulative warmonger? He should be lolling in jail. Preferably an Iraqi one.

      Between one thing and another … Ruth for PM … Westminster are really scraping the bottom of the barrrel now. I just hope that the Catalonians tell them to get to you know where.

    274. mike cassidy says:

      The EU/EFTA debate.

      The head of the EFTA court has his say.

      http://archive.is/x67cL

    275. Alex Clark says:

      @Petra

      Didn’t mean to upset anyone but the thought of Tony Blair as a mediator between Catalonia and Spain just made me laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.

      Mind you I note that RT reveal the original quote as being from the Express then that explains it!

    276. yesindyref2 says:

      @Alex Clark
      Totally agree. The more policies that are baggaged with Independence, the more NO voters there’ll be. Just plain vanilla Indy and the other decisions come after – cross-party at first, like currency to start off with. The options do need to be outlined, and personally I think even heated debate at the time is useful, as it can show the undecided how much choice an Independent Scotland can have.

    277. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Well, there is the fact that the EEA council is both EU and EFTA, and this small paper shows that while EFTA members of the EEA are not bound by EU rules at all, they are by EEA rules, but they are tailored from the EU to suit the EEA, which has to incorporate both EU and EFTA.

      http://www.efta.int/media/documents/eea/1113623-How-EU-acts-become-EEA-acts.pdf

      linked to from the main EEA page:

      http://www.efta.int/eea

      Hopefully, though neither EU nor EFTA + EEA should be tied into the Indy Ref itself, there will be groups making a real effort to compare and contrast the EU with EFTA, which are two totally separate organisations, meeting only in the EEA basically.

      I guess the EEA council could refuse to implement something from the EU, but rather than that it would be adapted to suit. Despite views to the contrary, most things are done by concensus and some compromise.

      Sadly the media is totally ignorant of the difference between EU and EEA. So it seems were both Remain and Leave campaigns. I got into this a bit in 2012 because of the “threats” we’d be kicked out of the EU, ironically via a quite detailed Brexit website. Well then, EFTA and EEA will do just fine thanks very much, and even back in Indy Ref 1 EFTA made welcoming noises quite openly, whereas with the EU we got Barros0 and Van Rompuy distorted by the BBC to boot.

    278. Liz Rannoch says:

      O/T BUT I’M SHOCKED!!

      From time to time we all moan about how to fight against the media. We have the National but the only thing we have like the TV, is folk like Indylive.

      This shocked me:

      https://independencelive.net/

      I’m on here most days, sometimes 2/3 times a day, so maybe I’ve missed a link, but why then so low a total?

      I’m not on f/b or twitter so could others spread the word? I know we’re all skint the noo (thanks Maybot) and there seems to be lots of worthy causes out there, but come on guys…. hunt yer hoose, persuse yer pockets and search yer sofas.

      Please.

    279. Liz g says:

      Petra & Alex
      Look on the bright side mibbi somebody in Catalonia will arrest Blair and hand him over for trial.
      I think there are a couple of countries with warrants out on him are there no?
      I mean let’s face it if he is involved it won’t be to get Catalonia a peaceful independence.
      But keep them for Spain compose a vow mibbi?
      Re title the King “the people’s King” get Sir Elton to compose a wee something thus becoming Lord Elton of Dee notice!
      Although now I am beginning to wonder if Westminster will try and involve him in our exit negotiations… Perish the thought!

    280. yesindyref2 says:

      @Alex / @Petra
      Gordon Brown would make a good mediator, he’d bore them into submission.

    281. AlbertaScot says:

      I don’t quite know how you differentiate between good fracing (or at least tolerable fracing) and bad fracing if fracing appears to be a moral not an engineering issue.

      Out here in my log cabin in the middle of the Western Sedimentary Basin fracing is a way of life and has been around since ol’ Shep was a pup.

      Right now there are “we’re hiring” signs hanging on fences in oil patch centres like Red Deer and Nisku for pressure unit operators as a big shale play called the Duvernay is ramping up for the winter.

      So far there have been no catastrophic events.

      As for its effect on whisky which has been raised, the actual fracturing takes place a couple thousand metres or more subsurface and there is no connectivity with ground water sources.

      Water wells rarely go deeper than 100 or so metres.

      I should know because I pretty well snorkel Alberta Premium and Highwood and so far have suffered no lasting effects.

      Except for maybe the occasional morning after fat head.

      Heck, we even have a whisky outfit out here called Rig Hand – which kinda squares the circle.

      All I’m saying, there appears to be a disconnect.

    282. Gary45% says:

      Tony “Granny for sale” B-liar.
      As already mentioned he should be up for war crimes,
      Blair and Broon made Thatcher look like a saint, and that’s saying something.

    283. One_Scot says:

      ‘All I’m saying, there appears to be a disconnect’

      Well maybe go and take it to someone who can look into for you.

    284. scottieDog says:

      I was pretty agnostic about the EU during indyref. I found the whole Greek episode very worrying which is why I always wanted scotland to issue a new sovereign currency.

      Needless to say I’m cold towards the EU now. I had plenty debates with people who I regarded as switched on who were pro-brexit. They had some pretty well thought through reasons, one of which was the neoliberal elitism that existed amongst the troika. I was aware of that but still saw enough to make me fear an untethered tory uk govt more and so I voted remain.

      None of these trading groups are perfect but for scotland to campaign for indy with no trade deals I think would spook too many people bearing in mind the London media.

      EFTA/EEA is by no means perfect but neither is life and for the doubters there needs to be a clear advantage to indy over uk kamikaze approach.

      I look at iceland as part of the EEA. It stood up to neoliberalism. It ran significant deficits to grow its economy (not the done thing under the EU crazy stability growth pact)
      It also imoosed capital controls – which technically it’s not supposed to under the single market rules.

    285. yesindyref2 says:

      @scottieDog
      This maybe, I found earlier?

      http://www.efta.int/free-trade/customs-and-origin

      EFTA is not part of the customs union, so I think it’s not against EEA rules, or they’ve been adapted from the EU for EFTA – as in my posting above.

      http://www.efta.int/media/documents/eea/1113623-How-EU-acts-become-EEA-acts.pdf

    286. Liz g says:

      AlbertaScot @ 6.20
      Nae disconnect at all…
      There is just no need in a resource rich country to carry out an activity underneath home’s that the insurance company’s won’t insure against.
      And it doesn’t matter that it MIBBI wont somehow get into the water supply…. For two reasons.
      Firstly..
      We have to trust the Government will properly regulate and enforce those regulations,and that they will do this precisely,for all time and without the oversight of the EU.
      That kind of trust is not there.
      Secondly
      The People believe with good reason that it will contaminate their living space and they will be left with the bill when these companies mess up (like the banks) so they say no to it.
      It is not the job of the politicians to go against that,but rather to do as the people have said no matter what profit is lost…..ye know like the Brexit vote.

      I mean don’t forget the people who would have to live with any contamination won’t see a penny of the profit.
      And those who profit won’t have to live with the contamination.
      So why should they allow it,the people have said that they do not want this and it’s the job of the government to make sure it doesn’t happen.

      Now I am going to disconnect with you pal,as I am no all that sure we would ever be on the same page with this.
      Its like you’re in the sea and I’m on the land and you canny tell that’s different…. Just mind no matter what else we disagree on everybody here wants a Yes this time.

    287. Lenny Hartley says:

      Channel four news from assembly rooms bath talking to remainders, wonder if the Rev will be there?

      See they have managed to get Maybots disaster of a speech off the headlines by digging up historical sex abuse allegations against Ted Heath. Btw I’m not suggesting that these serious allegations are not headline news , but timing seems odd…

    288. geeo says:

      There is too much being made of EU/EEA/EFTA association.

      NONE of them matter 2 fucks if we are not INDEPENDENT.

      The bottom line is simple.

      If you want independence, VOTE YES.

      If you want to stay in the union, VOTE NO.

      It really IS that simple.

      If you only want independence outside the EU/EEA/EFTA (take your pick), and you are saying you will not vote Yes unless you get your way, then you are already a NO voter.

      You just haven’t admitted it to yourself yet.

      If you want indy, VOTE YES.

      Everything else can wait.

    289. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      This us what put me off fracking underneath or near homes:

      https://www.gla.ac.uk/news/archiveofnews/2014/november/headline_375187_en.html

      “Dr Westaway said: “Currently, the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s regulation is that any fracking operation which induces surface vibrations greater than magnitude 0.5 on the Richter scale should be shut down immediately.

      . . .

      We’ve determined that a fracture of that length created in a single rupture, which is very unlikely, would likely correspond to a maximum quake of magnitude 3.6. That might be sufficient to cause minor damage on the surface such as cracked plaster.”

      They want the safety regulations made less safe. Well, get lost.

    290. Lenny Hartley says:

      Alberta Scot, not long now till the tundra freezes and you can get back to drilling? Anyways Onshore Fracking in Scotland , one major issue is that the geology of the central belt has already been fracked naturally about 250 million years ago. Even if the geology was suited over 99% of people who responded to public consultation were against it, we don’t need it and we don’t want it.

    291. stewartb says:

      AlbertaScot @4.50pm

      Re- your comments on fracking, there is now a substantial amount of scientific and economic research evidence that has been commissioned by the Scottish Government on the specific circumstances of Unconventional Gas exploitation onshore in Scotland. All can be read if you wish.

      I focus on just one highlight from a KPMG economic impact assessment given that you mention foregone economic activity.

      SOURCE: KPMG (2016) Economic Impact Assessment and scenario development of unconventional oil and gas in Scotland. A report for the Scottish Government.

      “According to our estimates, the UOG industry could represent, on average, 0.1% of Scottish GDP (2015) in our Central scenario and 0.3% in our High scenario which is not a large contribution to the Scottish economy.”

      This needs to be placed alongside the range of risks and uncertainties that the research evidence has identified plus the widespread negative views of many in the communities that would be most affected by production.

    292. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Perhaps you didn’t notice but the SNP had four of the world’s most prominent economists on board for the White Paper and have a well qualified team working a the moment on economic issues.”

      Whatever happened to Nicola’s “experts” who were going to find ways for a seperate deal for Scotland in the EU?

      Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      Instead of striking when the iron was hot, she tried to be ultra cautious.

      The result: She was outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Catalonians have a spine, Scots don’t.

    293. Bob Mack says:

      The accepted average depth for fracking is 6000 to 10000 ft.
      The water table is around 500m. In other words they have to drill through the water table levels to get to the shale deposits. It has huge potential for leakage ,as many Americans have found. Turn on your water taps and get gas

      No thanks.

    294. Ken500 says:

      There are no productive fracking areas in Scotland. Not worth anything. No even worth investment. The Oil & Gas sector has been taxed at 40% since Jan 2016. Leading to the downturn. Westminster ignorant incompetent unionists politicians. Leading to the lose of 120,000 jobs in Scotland. If the tax had been taken down there would have been no downturn.Totally damGing the Scottish economy. Oil & Gas is being imported. Fracked gas from the US and gas from Norway etc.
      They would rather import it than produce it. They haven’t a clue.

      Putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt. The Tories are totally ignorant incompetents. Doing everything they can to bring the Scottish economy down. Just like Thatcher, Blair and Brown. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. They could not make a bigger mess.

    295. ALANM says:

      The events of the last seven days have taught us two valuable lessons:

      1. EU membership is a hindrance not a help
      2. The independence movement here has to up its game

    296. AlbertaScot says:

      OK, I think I get it, onshore fracing BAD!!

      Offshore fracing good – sorta.

      Now here’s another puzzler.

      Last year the UK Oil and Gas Authority (there’s no Scotgov authority but there should have been years ago before this fracing thing got out of hand) quietly ponied up 2.5 million pounds to run seismic under the Firth of Clyde and the Minch where there’s supposed to be mucho hydrocarbons in situe.

      Now my reading of the Crown Estate deal (one of the few Vow fibs that Westminster actually came through on) the Scotgov now calls the shots up to 12 miles off shore.

      And 200 miles for oil and gas pipelines and storage facilities.

      Does that mean Holyrood now runs the Clyde Play?

      Which in all eventuality will have to have the sh!t fraced out of it to get maximum production?

      Canny Scots minds may even figure out a way of collecting some royalty.

      All I can say is “spud that puppy.”

      (Editorial note: “spud” is oil patch lingo for beginning to drill.)

    297. Ken500 says:

      How can there be an IndyRef with all of the other Brexit nonsense going on. It would be better to wait until the Tories are gone which will not be very long. Get rid of the Tories and opposition first.

      Support for a Independence Catalonia 40%+ 2,3Million out of a 5.5 Million electorate. A 7.5Millions population. Many people are not getting a vote?

      Support for Independence Scotland 50%

    298. Alex Clark says:

      Scotland game, not for watching of course but just to prove that other countries can show it live but Scotland can’t.

      http://cricfree.sc/watch/live/scotland-vs-slovakia-live-streaming

    299. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 18:07:

      EU [and] EFTA […] are two totally separate organisations, meeting only in the EEA basically.

      Indeed. And who sets the ground rules? Err, the EU, as you yourself mention earlier in your posting. This ain’t an “equal-partner” relationship, even though the cost of membership isn’t much less.

      I got into this a bit in 2012 because of the “threats” we’d be kicked out of the EU, ironically via a quite detailed Brexit website. Well then, EFTA and EEA will do just fine thanks very much,

      There it is again, The Assumption. If we choose EFTA/EEA instead of the EU, somehow the BritNats will leave that alone? One has to be wearing rose-tinted glasses not to see the obvious lines of attack.

      Yet the hoary old “leave the EU” threat is totally bust now, with the rUK leaving anyway. And we will react by just implicitly conceding that the BritNats were right after all?

      Why is it that some people now apparently can’t tolerate the least deviation from absolute perfection from the EU, yet are quite comfy putting up with the very evident imperfections of EEA/EFTA?

      Please note, peeps, that EEA/EFTA is merely a trading convenience for business. It has nothing to offer the ordinary person directly. You can be a citizen of the EU, but you can’t be a citizen of the EEA or EFTA.

      Not everyone joining in this issue is being entirely transparent as to their motives either. At least with the ultra-right we can see their neo-imperialist stance. The ultra-left however, through ignorance or mischief, always attempt to conflate the EU with the eurozone, which are not the same thing at all. And always seem to conveniently forget that their fave victim-of-choice, Greece (both its government and the majority of people), most definitely want to stay in the EU.

      These types have always disliked the EU out of sheer political dirigisme, seeing it presumably as an obstacle to the desired creation here of their version of… errm…
      Venezuela or suchlike. ‘Nuff said!

      I’m getting the distinct impression that for some yessers EEA/EFTA is starting to become something of a cargo cult. A convenient panacea to avoid properly addressing the thorny issue of international trading post-indy. As if our BritNat opponents will be equally sanguine!

    300. Ken500 says:

      Catalonia pop 7.5million. 20% under 18. – 1.5million. 1/2million people do not get a vote.

    301. Petra says:

      @ AlbertaScot says at 6:20 pm …. ”Out here in my log cabin in the middle of the Western Sedimentary Basin fracing is a way of life and has been around since ol’ Shep was a pup ….

      …. So far there have been no catastrophic events.

      …. All I’m saying, there appears to be a disconnect.”

      AlbertaScot I don’t know if you originally came from Scotland or not. If not I think you should consider some facts. Scotland is a VERY small country in comparison to Canada and the Western Canadian Basin area that you mention. In other words fracking in Canada will have a minimal effect in comparison to fracking in Scotland.

      Scotland is considered to be one of the most beautiful countries in the world which of course attracts many tourists and brings in billions in revenue. Our country is covered with many small villages and narrow roads / lanes which would be totally destroyed with trucks moving around 24×7. In other words our country would be absolutely decimated, irreversible of course, if we allowed the many fracking companies to get their claws on our land.

      Scotland is also an attraction to Westminster / fracking companies due to us having over 31,000 lochs in comparison to England’s 80 lakes, some of which are used for drinking water, so the areas around would be exempt. Water as we know is crucial for fracking which means that a number of our lochs would be left contaminated: On top of those that have been contaminated already with Westminster using Scotland as a guinee pig / dumping ground over time.

      If there is a disconnect I wonder if it’s because you’re not aware of the full facts such as:

      Many individuals such as those on the Economic Affairs Committee (EAC) at Westminster have the authority to hand out fracking licenses. A number of these individuals have financial interests in fracking / energy companies.

      They don’t seem to be too concerned either about the standards of companies that they’re awarding licenses to, such as the Chinese state owned oil firm, CNOOC, is linked to allegations of human rights violations in Tibet and Myanmar.

      A Law has been passed that allows fracking companies to drill right under our homes without our permission.

      A document from the UK’s prior Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) has highlighted areas with shale gas potential, including the bulk of Scotland’s Central Belt (many homes).

      Reserves of the gas have been identified as potentially lying beneath a huge swathe of central Scotland stretching from Aberdeenshire to Dumfries and Galloway. Oh yes, Westminster has been doing it’s homework.

      Fracking licenses have been apporoved for areas such as Loch Lomond and the Trossachs National Park. Beggar’s belief.

      Gas extracted at some Scottish sites could be piped down to Liverpool to feed INEOS’ giant complex in Runcorn. The site uses huge amounts of energy – more than the entire city of Liverpool – and even has its own power plant. Pipes have been laid already. Scotland ‘feeding’ England as per usual.

      Fracking in the UK was previously suspended following concern that it was responsible for causing two earthquakes in Lancashire (approx 175 miles away)

      The bottom line is that we don’t want or need to frack in Scotland and as Liz has already mentioned there will be no benefit at all for the ordinary Scot. I don’t know if you realise that Scotland is at the forefront of the renewable energy sector worldwide and when up and running, when we get rid of Westminster, is worth trillions.

      I reckon your lack of knowledge about the country, particularly it’s size, the Law, what’s reserved to Westminster / devolved to Scotland (and that could change overnight) accounts for the actual disconnect here AS.

      ……………………………

      PLEASE CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:

      .”The mainland of Scotland comprises the northern third of the land mass of the island of Great Britain, which lies off the north-west coast of Continental Europe. The total area is 78,772 km2 (30,414 sq mi),comparable to the size of the Czech Republic…..”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland

      ……………………………………………..

      ….”The Western Canadian Sedimentary Basin (WCSB) is a vast sedimentary basin underlying 1,400,000 square kilometres (540,000 sq mi) of Western Canada including southwestern Manitoba, southern Saskatchewan, Alberta, northeastern British Columbia and the southwest corner of the Northwest Territories…”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Canadian_Sedimentary_Basin

      ………………………….

      …..”Canada is a country in the northern part of North America. Its ten provinces and three territories extend from the Atlantic to the Pacific and northward into the Arctic Ocean, covering 9.98 million square kilometres (3.85 million square miles), making it the world’s second-largest country by total area and the fourth-largest country by land area….”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada

    302. Ken500 says:

      Independence with EEA/EFTA with a later option of full membership.

      Or no Independence and no EU membership.

      The choice. What is more important? Independence or EU membership. What’s going to bring the most benefit to Scotland. Independence.

    303. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “How can there be an IndyRef with all of the other Brexit nonsense going on. It would be better to wait until the Tories are gone which will not be very long. Get rid of the Tories and opposition first.”

      There will always be a Tory government at Westminster, blue, red or yellow.

      “Support for Independence Scotland 50%”

      What are we waiting for then?

    304. Ken500 says:

      There is absolutely no benefit to Scotland of fracking. Just a waste of time. Little production. Just a waste of investment. Not feasible.

      There is plenty of opportunity for offshore and renewable benefits. These are more cost effective worth investment and production. Cheaper, cleaner and more energy efficient. Especially until there can be a change over.

    305. Meg merrilees says:

      Very interesting programme on R4 BBC just now. Talking about Catalonia and explaining the hows and wheres etc of Catalonia and UDI.

      Some professor from Keele Uni been talking about it and how the EU would react if catalonia declares UDI.

      For Catalonia to be recognised as an Independent, sovereign state, its PARENT STATE has to agree to let it go. Without the release from the parent state the rest of the EU won’t recognise it as a sovereign independent state.

      WE DON’T HAVE A PARENT STATE…… we’re equal partners in a Treaty with England. I think Breeks may be on the right track this morning.

      We have to tell the rest of the EU/ the rest of the UK and the rest of the world that we are already a Sovereign country in a voluntary treaty with an equal partner i.e. England. England IS NOT our parent state, therefore we DO NOT NEED their permission to become an independent state.
      Exactly what Robert Peffers and many others have been saying on this site for many posts.

      Onwards and upwards…

    306. Ken500 says:

      Waiting till the time is right to win? A couple of years before a 100 years. Is not too much to bear. When some folk have waken up.

    307. Fred says:

      The heir to the British throne has just popped up on Malta wringing his hands over plastic in the sea threatening the turtles. Not a word to spare about his Spanish cousin’s support for the cracking of skulls in Catalunya or the resurgence of fascism in Madrid. Charles the last?

    308. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      geeo @ 19:10,
      (and yesindyref2 @ 18:01 pm)

      Yes, true that. I think though the issue (as with others) rotates around what will convince the most people to vote “yes”.

      If there’s any lesson to be learnt from indyref1 and the EURef, it’s that most ordinary non-political people will choose whichever option offers them the best prospect of stability and continuity.

      The simple “bring back control” of the Brexiteers worked amazingly well (at least in England) during the EURef, but the consequences (not least the evident confusions as to what that slogan even meant) may well render unsustainable any attempt to repeat the exact same play in the next indyref.

      While it’s clear that acres of fine print as per the SNP white paper last time do provide far too many potential distractions, I feel that we had still better be able to convince open-minded people that we do have at least a fair clue as to where we’re intending to head.

    309. Petra says:

      @ indyref2 says at 7:11 pm …. ”Petra .. This us what put me off fracking underneath or near homes:

      http://www.gla.ac.uk/news/archiveofnews/2014/november/headline_375187_en.html

      “Dr Westaway said: “Currently, the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s regulation is that any fracking operation which induces surface vibrations greater than magnitude 0.5 on the Richter scale should be shut down immediately.

      . . .

      We’ve determined that a fracture of that length created in a single rupture, which is very unlikely, would likely correspond to a maximum quake of magnitude 3.6. That might be sufficient to cause minor damage on the surface such as cracked plaster.”

      They want the safety regulations made less safe. Well, get lost.”

      It would give you the heebie-jeebies as they say. There’s loads of data out there to the effect that it causes cancer, alters DNA and so on. They can’t even tell us what’s in the cocktail of chemicals that they use.

      It must be, to my mind, the number ONE reason for getting out of this Union, especially now with the power grab going on. Scotland is nothing more than a guinea pig, dumping ground, recreational area, host for Nuclear weapons, war games venue, holiday home haven and of course cash cow for Westminster et al and it’s absolutely amazing that so many Scots, including so-called politicians, can’t see it. Can’t see that Westminster doesn’t give a damn for the Scots. Not now. Not ever.

    310. meg merrilees says:

      Alberta Scot 6.20pm

      The geology of Scotland is wholly inappropriate for fracking.
      There are very few areas of the country where the geological strata have not been fractured.

      This results in seams which might contain the substances the frackers want to extract becoming broken and there is then no control on where the pressurised liquids may travel into the subterranean layers. They had a somewhat similar problem with the coal seams as they were unsuitable for the larger mining machines and the prohibitive cost of the smaller scale, often human, mining meant the coal mines could not compete price per ton with the cheaper products coming from other countries where the seams were much longer, wider and generally more accessible.

      This fractured geology underground is, of course, part of the reason we have such varied, attractive landscapes on the surface.

      We are blessed with abundant rivers, waterfalls and sea shore, also strong winds so we can produce a lot of our energy from renewables. Plus we have vast undersea reserves as yet untapped.

      So long as the nuclear weapons glide in and out of Faslane, NO-ONE will be fracking in the Clyde.

      Maybe fracking works where you are in the N. American continent but it is not good for us.
      Main thing is stay warm in winter!

    311. Meg merrilees says:

      Anyway folks, reading up the thread, I think we’ve all spent long enough discussing fracking with our visitor whose experience of fracking seems to be benign and a thoroughly good thing.

      Anybody know what is happening in Kurdistan – it’s gone awfully quiet, just like (t)Ruthless at FMQ’s today.

    312. stewartb says:

      AlbertaScot @ 8.04pm

      Re- your reference to the UK Oil & Gas Authority and its funding of seismic data in the area of The Minches and Firth of Clyde.

      As best as I can tell from a quick look online, this is covered in the tender issued in 2016 entitled: “Reprocessing Legacy Seismic Data and Rights to Publish Legacy Seismic Data in Seven Areas around the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS”)

      SOURCE: https://www.delta-esourcing.com/tenders/UK-UK-London:-Services-related-to-the-oil-and-gas-industry./J6H43VHJGF

      From this (see the extract below), the value of the contract for this specific Lot is (only) £1,500,000 and only for re-processing old data. This was a public procurement exercise (not especially done “quietly”). I cannot determine what part of, and how much legacy data from, specifically the Firth of Clyde is in scope. If you can give a source for additional OGA-funded seismic acquisition in the Clyde, it would be interesting to have your info source. ( It has long been thought that the Firth of Clyde has been a no go area for O&G E&P because of the access to the WMD base at Faslane.)

      Extract from the tender:

      “II.2) Description Lot No. 7
            
            II.2.1) Title: Minches and Firth of Clyde       
       
            II.2.4) Description of procurement: The OGA wishes to appoint a supplier or suppliers for up to 7 lots covering reprocessing of legacy seismic data and rights to publish legacy seismic data in various areas in and around the UKCS
                  
            II.2.6) Estimated value:
            Value excluding VAT: 1,500,000       
            Currency: GBP”    

      I am no expert on the legalities, but whilst the Crown Estate has licensing powers over marine renewable energy generation sites, as far as I’m aware it never has had any licensing powers with respect to UK offshore oil and gas. Don’t think this has changed with the Scotland Act.   

    313. BJ says:

      Got a reply from NTS. I had mailed them about being unhappy to support them after their decision to appoint Neil Oliver.

      This is part of the reply:-

      “The National Trust for Scotland is a politically neutral charity and has no interest in any individual’s political views. Our job is to protect the wonderful places in our care and share and celebrate Scotland’s amazing history and spectacular scenery with as many people as we can.

      The role of President is an ambassadorial one, supporting our engagement activities and spreading the word about our work . So, in looking for a new person to take on this role the Trust was looking for someone who could help us take our message of conservation of special places, spaces and wildlife to even more people.

      Neil Oliver’s work focuses on promoting the heritage, history and archaeology of Scotland, this clearly chimes with our objectives as a charity. These are the skills and qualifications which led to his nomination and appointment.”

    314. AlbertaScot says:

      The Canadian Association of Oilwell Drilling Contractors reckons that 6,842 wells will be spudded around here this year.

      Every one in one way or another will be fraced, mostly multi-stage horizontal wells with a dozen or so Halliburton units lined up in a row on bump day. Three years ago when WTI was 100 bucks a barrel over 11,000 were drilled.

      Alberta is not the great lone land, big white north as portrayed by some here.

      The Scots railway engineers laid out a village every 7 miles along every branch line in the west. (That’s how far they reckoned a Scots immigrant farmer could deliver a wagon-load of grain with a team in a day and make it back home for supper.)

      The farmsteads and ranches were surveyed (more Scots) in 160 acre parcels.

      Of course some of the farms have been consolidated but a lot of folks still live on the landscape where the fracing takes place.

      There’s a whole lot of ways to drill that doesn’t require fracing under houses.

      But as yet no catastrophe as the geniuses in Scotland are all but guaranteeing has occurred. How come?

      I guess we just dodged a bullet.

      Another thing about oil and gas production and ground water.

      An oil well is really a pipe inside a pipe.

      The outer pipe, which is called casing, is drilled then cemented to the formation under extreme pressure with a great big bejesus pumper.

      All the way down to the basement. The oil and gas comes up an inner pipe called production tubing.

      Yes, they drill through the surface formation holding the ground water but there are two pipe walls and cement plugs separating them.

      There is no commingling or contamination.

    315. Petra says:

      @ Meg merrilees says at 8:33 pm …. ”For Catalonia to be recognised as an Independent, sovereign state, its PARENT STATE has to agree to let it go. Without the release from the parent state the rest of the EU won’t recognise it as a sovereign independent state.

      WE DON’T HAVE A PARENT STATE…… we’re equal partners in a Treaty with England……”

      Meg it IS as simple as that. Catalonia is in a VERY different place from Scotland constitutionally; considered to be an autonomous community of Spain, not a country in it’s own right. Spain also has a written constitution that Catalonia has to comply with. Hence Madrid won’t accept UDI.

      We are a country in our own right, a Kingdom in fact, one of two Kingdoms that constitute the United Kingdom. Westminster knows it, the EU knows it, the UN knows it and so on. We don’t have to tell them.

      The UK, Scotland and England (with Wales and NI), doesn’t have a written Constitution just a Treaty that can be binned basically if a majority of Scots want their Independence. And that is the CRUX of the matter. Even if EVERY Scot was made aware of the fact that the people of Scotland are Sovereign, THEY are Sovereign, if they don’t want to use the power that they have to bring about Independence that’s an end to it, as we found out in 2014.

      We need a MAJORITY of Sovereign Scots to support Independence. Anything less than that wont work. UDI is out for us for a number of reasons and if over 50% of Sovereign Scots continue to support the Union that’s THEIR Sovereign right. If they vote that way in a future Referendum that’s the message they would be sending to Holyrood, Westminster, the EU, UN: the World in fact…. ”We the vast majority of Sovereign Scots want to remain part of the Union.” Get support for Independence of over 50% of Scots, whether they know they are Sovereign or not, and we’re there. Home and dry. Onwards and upwards as you say.

    316. Petra says:

      @ ronnie anderson says at 9:00 pm …..

      https://www.facebook.com/bmair1/posts/10214056699676755

      HA, HA, HA! Brilliant.

      ……………………..

      AlbertaScot you seem to be keen on fracking … in Canada. The vast majority of people in … Scotland don’t want it and nothing that you say will change our minds. Best wishes to you for the future.

    317. Graeme says:

      My humble tribute to the brave people of Catalonia

      https://archive.org/details/catalonia_201710#

    318. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Nae offence @AlbertaScot says at 9:23 pm

      “there are two pipe walls and cement plugs separating them. There is no commingling or contamination.”

      That’s the theory if conducted correctly.

      But you have to trust it is done correctly and you’ll be aware if you’re in the industry that it routinely hasn’t been.

      Look at Halliburton cement and Macondo and countless land rig jobs in the ‘States, Africa, The Middle East and Asia get it out the ground get the cash and pay the fines and clean up later if you get caught (and they pay $ Millions to avoid this).

      The risk that the cement job will be cowboyed and present a leak path into the water table is one the majority of Scots are not prepared to take for dubious hydrocarbon returns in unconventional onshore fracked wells.

      Offshore miles away and of negligible risk to the populations health and water supply is acceptable.

      The current Hurricane Energy finds which are larger than Saudi Arabia’s largest (the Ghawar and without the water contamination this one suffers from).

      This would satisfy Scottish Oil and Gas needs in the interim while low carbon tidal and wind energy combined with carbon capture are progressed to future proof our nations energy security and energy revenues.

    319. Lenny Hartley says:

      Alberta scot, not really interested in Alberta to be honest although Eric Clapton used to sing a good tune called Alberta Alberta.

      For you information I have dirtied my hands going into the BBC website to archive this report which explains why Onshore Fracking in Scotland and the rest of the UK is a different proposition to Canada.
      http://archive.is/6MvZu

    320. ben madigan says:

      here’s a post I published some time ago about fracking in ireland.Which was re-blogged on a major environmental magazine.

      You’ll find videos about the effects in America and the effects on health etc as well as the story of irish resistance to fracking and who was engaged in pushing it forward –

      Surprise, surprise the DUP!!!.

      I was quite happy with a moratorium but if the government prefers to go for a ban, that’s fine with me.

      The important thing is that fracking does not happen in Scotland.

      Since this post was published, it has been banned in ireland.
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/01/09/to-frack-or-not-to-frack/

      here’s the situation as it was in Scotland a couple of years ago when the UK government decided to exclude Scotland from fracking
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/to-frack-or-not-to-frack-scotland/

    321. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Alex Clark at 5.16

      I take your point about the White Paper but tend to disagree. It was very detailed in most areas but within 20 minutes of its launch Alistair Darling was on national TV saying it was inaccurate, rubbish etc.

      As it was over 600 pages that was some feat to read it in quarter of an hour.
      That continued and there was no sensible discussion of any of it so it was largely a wasted effort. What it do do was present some targets to our enemies and as they control all the media weapons they were allowed to rubbish any part of it that was referenced without any response.

      For instance four entirely sensible options were detailed and presented re the currency. The one we choose of the four was the most generous to the English as it would have meant us sharing the UK National Debt and probably as a position for stability as we achieved independence the least vulnerable. It was conceded by Mervyn King that that offer would have been snapped up by the UK had we won as Scotland leaving Sterling would have sunk Sterling.(They can keep their national debt the next time BTW).

      But the point is whatever currency option we had chosen would have been relentlessly attacked as a part of Project Fear. We gave them a target but any target would have had the same treatment.

      So I get a bit pissed off listening to some folk rabbitting on about our need to chose a currency option.

      No,we do not.

      There are dozens of currency options all around us and all we need to say is we will choose what is our best option when we negotiate our independence.

      We can reference all the currency options by showing people what the various successful small countries around us use.
      That is all we need to do

    322. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Bit of a disappointing reply in all ways!

      From the EEA:

      The EEA Agreement guarantees equal rights and obligations within the Internal Market for individuals and economic operators in the EEA. It provides for the inclusion of EU legislation covering the four freedoms — the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital — throughout the 31 EEA States. In addition, the Agreement covers cooperation in other important areas such as research and development, education, social policy, the environment, consumer protection, tourism and culture, collectively known as “flanking and horizontal” policies. The Agreement guarantees equal rights and obligations within the Internal Market for citizens and economic operators in the EEA.“.

      So no, it’s not just trade.

      Secondly, who cares about Britnats or Westminster? It’s Scotland I care about, Westmminster will just be the parliament of our next-door neighbour, as Holland is to Germany, once we’re Independent. And the EFTA / EEA wouldn’t be formally applied for until after a YES.

      Secondly, did you look at my blog, it’s just about all about the EU and I voted Remain.

      Lastly I didn’t say the EU set all the rules, if you read that link I gave you can see the procdure – it’s back and for between EU and EFTA.

      https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/

      I’m afraid your reply to me gets a mark of 0.0% 🙂

    323. Glamaig says:

      @ Graeme
      5 October, 2017 at 9:49 pm

      thanks Graeme. Some of that footage is shocking. The Catalans are amazing people for keeping the heid and not lashing out at those thugs.

    324. Valerie says:

      @ Alberta Scot

      You are seriously wasting your breath. Save it. The grassroots campaigns, Friends of the Earth, with a Green inclined, progressive Scotgov, have saved this beautiful country, and its inhabitants.

      The vast amount of licenses were for the densely populated central belt, to exploit the coal seams, and transport links. If drilling or injection wasn’t underneath a house, you would certainly be able to see flares from your window.

      Heavy lorries transporting vast amounts of water 24/7, on estate roads, already under ordinary traffic stress. Air borne filth, together with the air borne chemicals produced by wells, wafting over your garden, schools.

      The central belt is riddled with coal seams and tunnels that aren’t properly mapped. They are discovered when a road collapses. Housing developments often have to pile drive for days to find stable ground for starting foundations.

      You have fun over there in your log cabin. We are ecstatic our government listened.

    325. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –

      The whole currency ‘debate’ is one many of us prefer to avoid, not least because it proved to be such a banana-skin for the Yes campaign. No names, pack drill etc, but there seemed to be no real consensus among the various ‘Yes’ parties, and the Yoons (esp those on the BBC payroll) made the most of it.

      The ‘pound’ is a BTUKOK fetish, and such a psychologically loaded object that we cannot afford to get into semantic arguments over whether or not a piece of paper/plastic is or isn’t more or less ‘real’ depending on whether it happens to bear a portrait of Winston Fucking Churchill rather than, say, Nan Shepherd.

      There must be many, like me, who don’t understand much about matters financial but trust that many of our compatriots are experts – I would love to see a national debate on so-called crypto-currencies, and the extent to which our business/political leaders are prepared to co-operate on making sure we are at the forefront of such border-busting advances. (Yes, I did catch a wee bit of Max Keiser’s interview with some major investor dude, forget his name!)

      😉

    326. boris says:

      Scot’s donations to charity causes are well in excess of wealthy Londoners. Yet control rests with London who donate the least yet gain the most and this includes £500m each year from the Scottish government.

      https://caltonjock.com/2015/06/20/scots-earn-the-least-yet-donate-the-most-to-british-charities-control-of-the-charity-sector-is-transferring-to-london-scotland-stuffed-yet-again/

    327. Hamish100 says:

      Ot

      Well done the national football team

    328. AlbertaScot says:

      Well, if this Perfesser Underhill is the world’s greatest oil geology genius, which he clearly ain’t, then that proves my point.

      First of all, the formation he’s talking about has been subject to freeze/thaw for a bazillion years and of course it’s fractured and fissured at surface.

      Even if his theory held water (which it doesn’t) then horray, let’s get ‘er done.

      Getting oil or gas to flow to the well bore is all about porosity.

      If the shale is as fractured as the doc says it is, then THERE’S NO NEED TO FRAC!!!

      Just spud the well, hit TD, bolt on a Christmas tree, open the valve and let the good times roll.

      The whole point of multi-stage fracing is because Scots gas is tight gas. Not some Swiss cheese Devonian reef.

      At least that’s the theory because as far as I’m aware nobody has actually drilled into it yet.

      To release it you have to break up the formation.

      And by the way, if nobody is supposed to drill in the Clyde because of the nuke subs, why is another arm of the UK gov. dusting off the historic seismology.

      First of all you first go with what you’ve got because that’s cheap.

      Then put seisie ships on the water to narrow down on prospects.

      If this was a perfect world the Scottish National Oil Company – Petro Scotland or maybe ScotEng if you prefer – should be leading the charge.

    329. Graeme says:

      Glamaig says:
      5 October, 2017 at 10:07 pm

      @ Graeme
      5 October, 2017 at 9:49 pm

      “thanks Graeme. Some of that footage is shocking. The Catalans are amazing people for keeping the heid and not lashing out at those thugs.”

      Thanks for checking out the video, you’re right the scenes are shocking but I fear there could be worse to come for the Catalonians

    330. @Alberta Scot,

      I`m assuming you are not from the indigenous peoples of the North American Continent,

      or the very thought of poisoning,for profit,the earth and water of your country would be abhorrent.

    331. sinky says:

      Sky Newspaper review again promoting Ruth Davidson as next Tory leader. Where do we get those so called experts from who have no idea of her baggage

    332. Lenny Hartley says:

      I guess it’s time to stop feeding the troll .

    333. TheItalianJob says:

      We are doing well as a nation.

      Making our own decisions.

      We will prevail.

      Not listening to outsiders who have no say in our future.

      Keep strong the people of Scotland.

      We will win the day in the storm of hostility.

      Yes forever.

    334. galamcennalath says:

      sinky says:

      Sky Newspaper review again promoting Ruth Davidson as next Tory leader.

      Odd, isn’t it?

      The idea that the English nationalist party could be led by a Scot, even a Wannabe English (aka British) one, nae chance!

    335. TheItalianJob says:

      Be wary of the disrupters within our midst.

      They are to be ignored and left to their own.

      Keep strong us true people of our cause to gain our rightful place as an Independent nation.

      Nothing else matters.

      Leave the naysayers to reap what they sow.

      We are the positive amoung the negatives who will disrupt us.

    336. Tinto Chiel says:

      O/T: thinking about Spain’s “one and indivisible” schtick. In retrospect, you can see this as a hangover from Franco’s time, which all the dissident parts (Galicia, the Basques, Catalunya) probably accepted as an incremental improvement on the Fascist dictatorship.

      But surely constitutions should serve the people, not the other way around? As we know here, democracy is a process, not an immutable once-in-a-lifetime event.

      Spain’s constitution seems as bent and outdated as the UK’s, which boils down to Alice in Wonderland’s “It means whatever the Carmichael I say it is, suckers.”

      Shameful that so far the EU has focused on the “illegality” of the vote and not on the vindictive and disproportionate violence of the Spanish State, which could simply have let the vote proceed and then ignore it, and thus could have at least salvaged some dignity and magnanimous wiggle room in future negotiations.

      Hearing all the usual threats to Catalunya tonight on Pravdasound4: banks will leave, banks will leave, waiting for The Vow, myself.

      Tough days ahead for Catalunya’s fragile flower but also the litmus test for the EU.

      We’re watching.

    337. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Scott

      Nope, I’m a proud member of the indigenous peoples of Scotland.

      Although, if I recall, the fur trade unions produced a lot of indigenous native Scots. There are sure a lot of Isbisters, Ness’s, Fletts, MacDonalds, McDougals, Findlays and Prudens around here who proclaim their Scots/First Nation ancestry.

      I’m not aware of where all this poisoning you speak of is taking place but if it’s Syncrude you’re talking about they’re the largest employer of indigenous people in Canada.

      The oil sands is a surface mining operation. No fracing required.

    338. Elmac says:

      Re BJ at 9.22

      Sent the followimg earlier today to NTS. No reply yet:

      – I am sending this email to express my astonishment and disgust that the NTS would consider Neil Oliver a suitable candidate for the post of President. He is not a qualified historian. Moreover his media contribution to our history has been to belittle Scotland’s past and our rich heritage. His motivation is to curry favour with the union establishment who control his paymasters, the BBC and the mainstream media in general whose function is to preserve the union at all costs and at the expense of truth and morality. Their objective is, as always, to suppress feelings of national identity and pride among Scots. Oliver is a biased individual who has politically prostituted himself for personal advancement. He is not Scotland’s friend.

      I have in the past visited NTS properties on many occasions with family and friends, particularly friends from Australia and the USA who have an insatiable appetite for all things Scottish. I was actively considering taking out membership. This will not now happen and all visits will cease. I am extremely angry that this has happened and would only reconsider if Oliver is removed and the person{s} responsible for his appointment reprimanded. I won’t hold my breath. Have you no concept of what this appointment conveys or is the S in NTS now totally redundant? –

      I have yet to receive a reply but expect if I do it will be word for word the same diarrhoea as you received.

      In response to their reply to you how can they equate “Our job is to protect the wonderful places in our care and share and celebrate Scotland’s amazing history and spectacular scenery with as many people as we can” with the appointment of Oliver whose mission in life is to downgrade Scottish history and culture.

      They also say “Neil Oliver’s work focuses on promoting the heritage, history and archaeology of Scotland, this clearly chimes with our objectives as a charity. These are the skills and qualifications which led to his nomination and appointment”.

      This is a blatant lie. The man is a charlatan. He has no such skills and certainly no qualifications. What led to his nomination and appointment was his obsequience to the unionist agenda rather than “promoting the heritage, history and archaeology of Scotland”. The conclusion must be that the NTS is not so much a charity as a gravy train and propaganda tool.

    339. Gary45% says:

      sinky@10.47
      Engerland are more than welcome to “Don’t Panic” Colonel Blimp, if they think she is the saviour, the UK really is well and truly FFCKUED.
      She is Scottish, if she is the new Tory leader!? then Scotland gets the blame for Brexit, yes this is the mind set/mentality of the English Yoon.
      If the Tories call a general election before the end of the year(good chance of it) Corbyn will get in, Labour will get the blame for Brexit,then the Tories get back in, and the shite merry-go-round goes on and on, meanwhile the SNP Scottish government will be doing the impossible by steering the country in the right direction under ever increasing austerity/biased interfering from Westminster/empire media, and will get ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIT, so the mugs will vote for Corbyn.(Keep the populous stupid).
      No internet for a few weeks, keep it real.
      Bon Nit.

    340. Elmac says:

      Re Fred at 8.34

      Not so much Charles the last as Charles the Turd (with apologies to our irish cousins). The man is a waste of space whose accession to the throne would be a gift from god to republicans. Now Harry Hewitt – there’s a different propositon! But would they ever allow it to happen?

    341. sinky says:

      FraserNelson on BBC Question Time just proved why the third largest political party in HOC should be represented every week

    342. Dr Jim says:

      I see Jeremy Corbyn’s got his way with his Union chums about to hold everybody to ransom for 5% pay increases or it’s a National strike eh
      Union man on Scotland tonight repeated Corbyns words verbatim about the Scottish government not using its taxation powers
      that we all know there’s no way they could come near 5% without it being UK wide

      Oh Jeremy Corbyn let’s all sing together now while Labour attempt to bring us all to our knees to get what they want, which is the power to do what they’ve always done in government……Nuthin!!

      There’s no happy medium with these people is there, it’s either out and out right wing Nazi or total left wing Communism,

      Whoops! nearly forgot there the SNP are in the middle trying to balance the whole shitload of extremists
      and yet we’re the Baad guys?

    343. Old Pete says:

      Fraser Nelson is the typical anti-Scot hates the idea of anything that shows Scotland doing much better with SNP stewardship. Andrew Neil and Andrew Marr on the BBC are no better, all three are doing rather nicely as part of the UK media establishment and they don’t consider Scotland as a country.

    344. TheItalianJob says:

      Ruth Davidson being promoted as next Tory leader.

      They are welcome to her. No way can she be described as Scottish.

      She is embarrassed to be associated with Scotland as per her speech at last year’s Tory Party Conference.

      SUNDAY SCOTTISH HERALD 09/10/2016
      And of course we can’t be trusted. Just ask Scottish Conservatives leader Ruth Davidson. While rubbing shoulders with Prime Minister Theresa May at last week’s Conservative Party conference, Davidson joked: “I’m delighted we have such spectacular surroundings. Usually they put the Scots in a place where nothing can be broken. Or stolen for that matter!”
      It’s infuriating that the Scottish Tory leader, a Scot, would indulge in such belittling tripe to get a few slaps on the back from the high-heid-yins of a party with only one MP in Scotland (on that point about subservience, I concede Cleese may have had a point …), but in the context of the mood of British nationalistic superiority, which oozed from the post-Brexit Tory conference it made sense.”

    345. TheItalianJob says:

      @Old Pete

      Agreed.

      Nelson, Marr and Neil useless so called Scots part of the establishment and corrupt state controlled **C.

      Never listen to them. Left well alone. Our day will come and they can remain in their SE bubble forever.

    346. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Petra just goes tae shows you Tractor’s (withoot the Eds ) ur useful machines lol.

      Viva Catalan Farmers Viva Catalonia .

    347. AlbertaScot says:

      OK, here’s the litmus test for the Ruth Davidson for PM fantasy island proponents out there.

      Dial up prime minister’s questions next Wednesday. (I know it’s hard to take but somebody has to be the crash test dummie.)

      Then cast your jaundiced eye up and down the smirking Tory benches.

      Now name one of those English MPs who will cast a vote for Ruthie let alone a majority. Case closed.

      Oh, another thing, to vote for the whole government agenda under EVEL she’ll have to become an Anglo.

      So also name the government MP willing to fall on their sword and give up a safe seat and fat Westminster perks for the fat little lesbian colonel.

      I think not.

      So can we now stop the insanity.

    348. mike cassidy says:

      Canada and fracking.

      Love the name of the site.

      http://archive.is/GyNOO

    349. Molly says:

      Dr Jim, thought the same thing. I saw on my FB page a few days ago a crowd of Labour supporters had been out in my area campaigning . Why I wondered ?

      Is this the plan?

      National strike , chaos , vote of no confidence , snap election , Corbyn?

      Only thing is , I would be surprised if Labour would want to be left holding the Brexit baby, that said they could just do what every W/Minster Govt does and blame the previous Govt.

      As for the UK wide union vote – do you want the pay cap lifted- well what eejit is going to say no?

    350. Old Pete says:

      Is the SNP conference on the BBC ? I will be surprised if they give us even a few hours of the highlights, bit like Scottish Football.

    351. Elmac says:

      The Itlaian Job at 11.32pm

      Ruth Davidson has no morals. She will say and do whatever is to her best advantage at the time she says it. Consequently she is shallow and prone to u-turns. What is advantageous to say today can be overtaken by events tomorrow. She is most definitely not a conviction politician. What she espouses is masked by fake bonhomie and gravitas. She will frequently lie, obfuscate, distort and omit. In short she is a fine example of a tory politician. However her modus operandi gives her a limited shelf life in any position before she is rumbled. She has to move on for her own political health.

      London is welcome to her blend of smarm and poisonous slime and the sooner the better.

    352. Dr Jim says:

      You can read the full text of the FMs speech over on her Twitter page

      You obviously don’t have to look at the usual mental Trolly Unionists who really do always have an acute inability to spell considering our Techy stuff does a lot of correcting for us, maybe they argue with the Techy stuff too

    353. Still Positive says:

      Old Pete @ 11.51

      Try BBC Parliament channel at 131 on Sunday and Monday morning when parliament is not sitting. Don’t know where you will get the rest of the conference except on youtube.

    354. Robert Peffers says:

      @AlbertaScot says: 5 October, 2017 at 6:20 pm:

      “I don’t quite know how you differentiate between good fracing (or at least tolerable fracing) and bad fracing if fracing appears to be a moral not an engineering issue. All I’m saying, there appears to be a disconnect.”

      Whoa! There! Alberta Scot.

      You are harbouring several misconceptions over this matter. I had intended to not comment on these issues but as some have attempted to correct you, but seemed to have failed to make the important facts clear, I will attempt to offer a little clarity.

      The first important point is that the Westminster Government have operated a confidence trick since the first drop of oil and whiff of gas came from the North sea.

      They did not class the oil & gas revenues as belonging to either of the only two individual Kingdoms that are the only legal partners in the United Kingdom.

      There are only the signatures of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England on the Treaty of Union document.

      Wales is an English Kingdom’s Principality and the Prince of Wales is legally the eldest son of the Monarch of the Kingdom of England.

      Northern Ireland is a Province of the Kingdom of England and both these matters date from well before the Treaty of Union.

      Wales from 1284 and The Statute of Rhuddlan and Ireland from the Crown of Ireland Act of 1542. Both Wales & Ireland came into the United Kingdom on the coat tails of the Kingdom of England.

      Importantly the United Kingdom does indeed contain four countries but it is NOT a union of countries. As its title correctly describes it – it is a bipartite United Kingdom.

      Not only that but the Treaty of Union is quite clear, (Article of Union Number 19), that the two legal systems are incompatible and will remain sacrosanct in perpetuity.

      Thus the actual legal fact is that as much as 98% of the oil & gas is extracted from what the International Law of the Seas designates as being, “Under Scottish Jurisdiction”. The imprecise percentages of between 90% and 98% is due to there never being 100% of wells operating at any given time due to maintenance, further development and even accidents and strikes of the workforce.

      However, Westminster does not do its accounts by individual kingdoms or even countries, but designates all oil & gas revenues as being extracted from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”.

      Thing is it isn’t in any way, “extra-regio”, as it most certainly is in the region belonging to the Kingdom and/or country of Scotland. Look up the definition of, “Extra-Regio”, and it is defined as, “Not of, or belonging to, any particular region”. In any cast Scotland is not a region of either the UK or England.

      Now, as to the environmental arguments – Here are the, and I use the term advisedly – stone cold facts.

      The biggest factor in seeing the Scottish coal mining industry as dead is the Scottish geology. It ended what the Westminster Government intended to be the Scottish Super-pit they were attempting to establish at Glenrothes – to the extent they had built a complete new town to serve as the town for the miners. It never produce commercial quantities of coal.

      The official version of events was flooding. While there most certainly was flooding it was the Scottish geology that caused the flooding. Scotland’s Highlands and Southern Uplands are entirely due to the ancient movements of the continental plates.

      Our geology is fractured and pushed in every direction and thus the coal seams are all over the place. They found the gigantic North American coal cutting machines totally unsuitable as there were no actual seams to use them on.

      Unlike, in for example Wales, where they went in horizontally into a mountain and mined coal through a, more or less, horizontal seam until they emerged on the other side of the mountain.
      Glenrothes Super-pit was abandoned for there was no way to prevent water seeping around all those fractured and shifted seams and flooding the workings.

      The same higgledy-piggledy conditions exist in the seams of shale. Fracking uses noxious substances. There is no way they could prevent those noxious materials from entering our domestic water supplies.

      As an aside old hangs will remember that when the pits around Kirkcaldy were active and you flew in from London on the shuttle you could see a large black area in the Firth of Forth which was the effluent from the Seafield mine surfacing in the middle of the Forth Estuary.

      Just to bear out my explanation have a wee look at this :-

      http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/heatEnergyGlasgow.html

      There is enough flooded old mine workings under Glasgow as could heat the entire city with the geo-thermal energy from the underground aquifers.

      I hope that explains a few point for you Alberta Scot. By the way several of my cousins from the Shale Mining village of Pumpherston emigrated to Alberta when the Pumpherston refinery was shutting down. If memory serves, at that time, Pumpherston Oil Works was only processing detergents and that from residues from Grangemouth.

    355. Hamish100 says:

      Bbc Brit 4

      Catalonia – the separatists, separatists, separatists

      Spain moving banks out of area.

      BBC support the Spanish fascists. No change there then

    356. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ronnie Anderson (at the very witching hour no less) –

      That is one scary image mister, and it deserves to be shared everywhere.

    357. TheItalianJob says:

      Neil Oliver

      Another hasbeen. Not worth listening to or viewing.

      Has no credentials as a historian on Scotland.

      Will paint a false account of Scottish history to aid the Unionist establishment cause to the detriment of the true Scottish people who know the truth of Scottish history that has been hidden and suppressed.

      We the true patriots of Scotland who are aware of the lies being perpetrated by the MSM and the **C will prevail.

      Keep right on and strong. We will overcome.

    358. Petra says:

      @ Graeme says at 9:49 pm … ”My humble tribute to the brave people of Catalonia.”

      https://archive.org/details/catalonia_201710#

      Very brave indeed Graeme. It’s actually utterly heartbreaking to watch and one wonders when this will end for them? Not for many years I would reckon with next year being absolutely explosive. Meanwhile let’s all go on holiday to Catalonia from now on (explosive or not). It’s the least that we can do for them and I, for one, just love the place, the people and their culture anyway. Costa del Sol, a favourite of mine, has just slipped way down my list now (sad to say for the ordinary poor Spaniards). I was actually thinking a buying a property just outside of Malaga. Not now between one thing and another… Brexit and the Rajoy thugs. Anyone else wondering about the Las Ramblas terror attack in August?

      ………………………….

      @ Dan Huil says at 10:32 pm …. ”Like we didnae ken:

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/15579715.The_man_who_wrote_Article_50_says_Westminster_is_trying_to_break_Scotland_s_devolution_settlement/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor

      Dan, very interesting, he faced a Commmitee at Holyrood today (yesterday now). It might be worthwhile checking that (him) out, as I’m planning to do when I get the time!

      …………………….

      AlbertaScot? I’m beginning to think that you’re actually WestminsterWillie, lol. We’ve all been extremely civil with you on here, but it’s high time that you got on your bike. If you care so much for Scotland surely you have something more relevant, constructive rather than destructive, to add to the conversation on here?

      …………………….

      Maybe we should start up a petition demanding that Theresa May stand down and that Ruth Davidson should take over. In which case, OO Ruth would have a bout, constant bouts, of chronic diarrhoea because she wouldn’t know where to start. She wouldn’t have a clue and she knows it. She could in fact win the biggest chancer of the year award and we Scots know it. The English people are being duped, big time. If not they are absolutely desperate now.

    359. Still Positive says:

      That erse Fraser Nelson on QT completely misrepresented disadvantaged Scottish pupils going on to uni.

      Most of the disadvantaged pupils go to uni via colleges which have a direct link to specific unis. Therefore, most of these students don’t go via UCAS which he was taking his figures from.

    360. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Robert

      When I’m talking on-shore fracing I’m sure not talking about now, now.

      Shipping all that royalty south of the Tweed is dumb ass stupid crazy.

      Leave it in situ for now. But don’t throw the baby out with the bath water either.

      Interesting to hear about your family pulling up stakes and moving to Wildrose Country. I’m not sure if Peffers is you internet handle or the real deal.

      Either way it doesn’t ring a bell. But there’s a lot of landscape out there.

      While I’ve got you another thing about Petro Scotland – the for-now mythical Scottish National Oil Company.

      We also do an IPO. Perfect stocking stuffers for the kids at Christmas and something to stash away in your retirement plan. If managed right the share price can only go up, up. up.

      The Scotgov’s annual dividend/profit share becomes seed money for the Sovereignty Fund.

      It’s bullet proof. Right?

    361. Petra says:

      Another post responding to Mike

      http://archive.is/GyNOO

      and Ronnie

      http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154904432103561&set=gm.764331147035032&type=3&theater

      seems to have disappeared. Thanks guys for highlighting that fracking in Canada has been an absolute disaster. Wee Scotland, miniscule in comparison to Canada, would be totally wiped out by the looks of it.

      Thanks to you too Robert for the excellent post, as per usual, and most informative link.

      http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/heatEnergyGlasgow.html

      A reminder (yes I know I’ve posted it before .. sorry but I love it) of what we’ve got to lose if Westminster continues to rule the roost.

      Compare this with Ronnie’s post of fracked Alberta, Canada. Do we want to lose this? NO! Get stuffed Westminster. You’ll take it over my dead body.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHu2zrHQyUE

    362. AlbertaScot says:

      Hi Petra

      Believe me there’s no disaster.

      I’m out and about on the land nearly every day hunting, fishing mushroom picking, etc.

      I’d see it. And it ain’t happening.

      Sure there’s some argie bargy about water extraction. And there are a lot of roads to wells that have carved up the Crown Land forestry a little.

      I don’t know where this guy is coming from or who he is. Or if he’s actually been in Alberta.

      And if you believe everything you read on the internet I’ve got this big red bridge across the Firth of Forth you might be interested in.

      But that old dog won’t hunt.

    363. Meg merrilees says:

      Petra @12.32 and everyone else on this thread tonight….

      See my post at 8.51.

      We’ve spent enough time discussing ‘Fracing’.
      Troll alert.

    364. Petra says:

      @ Meg merrilees says at 2:19 am …. Petra and everyone else on this thread tonight….See my post at 8.51. We’ve spent enough time discussing ‘Fracing’.Troll alert.”

      Spot on Meg. I came to that conclusion too …. eventually. Enough is enough, as they say.

      ………………………………………..

      Still mooching around the Internet! Time to get off to bed.

      Whilst mooching I came across something interesting and that is that Article 7 of the EU Treaty states that a Member State that uses military force on it’s own population should be suspended. Never been used / triggered before as far as I can make out.

      Now it’s far too late for me to start delving into EU Treaties to any great extent however I’ve come across a couple of basic articles to get going with, that is for anyone else on here who is interested.

      Article 7 of the European Union Treaty “Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”

      https://twitter.com/lizcastro/status/914433815766093825

      http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/2-article-2.html

      http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/7-article-7.html

    365. Petra says:

      Just thinking that if the EU Article 7 is correct it’ll be another great incentive for Westminster to pull out of the EU, lol.

      Lol? Maybe not lol at all!

    366. Nana says:

      “You’re seeing effectively police being given political instructions to beat people up in a democratic referendum”
      video here
      https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/915907517380681728

      Boris Johnson’s Libya gaffe was dreadful, but the UK’s track record there is worse
      http://archive.is/31t3F

      Russian propaganda may have been shared hundreds of millions of times, new research says
      http://archive.is/YDAbC

      http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-powerful-point-edward-heath-abuse/

    367. Hamish100 says:

      Mr Gove on BBC last night and on the television and radio this morning fully backing Mrs May.

      With friends like……….

      She’s doomed I’ll tell you. Ruthie get on yir tank and head south. Your Tory selfish git Nasty party needs someone like you

    368. david Anderson says:

      Don’t know if peeps have seen this but it is worth sharing as I doubt Uk or Spanish TV will be pushing the story. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalonia-villagers-report-intimidation-far-right-activists-171005171117393.html

    369. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Take it you’ve clocked the Grant Shapps story this morning Nana? Seems the knives aren’t merely being sharpened anymore. It appears Mr Shapps compiled a letter with a list of prominent members who would happily see a change of management. The existence of this letter was revealed to the media by party whips. Uh huh!

      What we are seeing is naked inter party revolt in the middle of the biggest economic and constitutional crisis the UK has seen in the post war era. A crisis brought on by this system of government and its practice of politics and therefore which the UK brought upon itself.

      No outside agency did this to the UK, or indeed the peoples of the UK and the population has to take a fair measure of the blame. You get who and what you vote for. If you were swayed by Tory and Labour/Tory lite policy and ideology. If you believed the lies and distortions. Worse! If you approved of the lies and distortions, then you are no less complicit than those who engineered this omnishambles.

      How and ever, if there is any sense of guilt or decency left. If there is any sense of anger at what has been done in your name, then there is still a way to make this right… at least in Scotland. Hopefully by winning this argument and setting an example of our own, we can make a difference elsewhere.

      What kind of example and what difference is up to the voter though. You get who and what you vote for.

    370. Breeks says:

      Last wee thought on the constitutional things I said yesterday morning…

      I wonder if the blue touch paper for the legal argument to validate Scottish Sovereignty might not be Nicola Sturgeon announcing the date for a constitutional plebiscite without a Section 30 Agreement. If not a blue touch paper, then maybe a Catalonian flag to a bull…

      The risk I suppose is that Westminster might then race ahead in whatever borrowed time it has to exercise its Parliamentary Sovereignty to stick as many constitutional sticks into our spokes of our wheels as they can manage – before the legal process of Sovereign recognition of Scotland could be completed. I’m thinking race ahead to shut Holyrood, declare our capacity to hold referenda illegal… basically do to us what Spain did to the Catalans prior to their referendum.

      The sticky ground in my own argument is whether sovereign recognition which we do want, can be kept separate or held in stasis without prompting the actual transfer of sovereignty. I know that sounds daft, or rather, it’s blindingly obvious. But what I’m getting at, is that while something like EU membership can given a transitional holding pen status while the details are worked out, I don’t think the same arrangement works for Sovereignty. It is a binary yes or no, and there is no transitional state possible. We are sovereign until the moment we’re not, or not sovereign until the moment we are.

      Thinking aloud, to prevent the Scottish Unionists suffering seizures and cardiac arrests in these circumstances, I suspect Scotland needs to be creative and introduce a middle stage in the process. Stage 1 is where we are, with Westminster recognised as sovereign. Stage 2 is where Scotland’s sovereignty is recognised, and an effective and binding transfer of sovereign recognition occurs. (Note the recognition transfers, not the sovereignty which is always ours). But after the first stage and before the second, the only interim transitional phase I can see working is a period of technically disputed sovereignty. And that sounds kinda risky.

      Essentially, I think Nicola needs to start doing everything twice, and serve two masters for a time. Pay all due respects to Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, but qualify every action with a blatant reference to Scotland’s Sovereignty.

      Say for example the Section 30 Agreement- Nicola needs to say something along the lines of “while Scotland’s sovereignty is technically disputed, we require a dual approach to negotiations. We can pay due observance to a parliamentary sovereign Westminster’s process and criteria, but must also shadow such positions with the same position but given Scottish sovereignty emerges as the superior.

      In effect Nicola should apply for the Section 30 to keep the peace, but be clear and expicit that the apparent concession to Westminster which it represents is a technicality which is only warranted because the sovereignty of Scotland is disputed. We will use Westminster’s process because it is there, but do so on the qualified basis that such process will be deemed redundant if and when Scotland’s sovereignty becomes properly recognised. But we need to start saying this.

      It all gets very complicated, with lots of head scratching and complexity, but the bottom line is this : the UN, EU, and International community at large must as soon as possible recognise Scotland as a sovereign nation trying to extricate itself from a political quagmire of our “Union”. We must not let Scotland fall into the same categories as Catalonia and be recognised, and ostracised, as a region or secessionist movement trying to create a new country.

      The game of tic, tac, toe however is that if Scotland is recognised as sovereign on the international stage, then it becomes silly to have a democratic referendum about sovereignty, and ScotRef should really be ScotPleb… a ratification plebiscite.

      Again, thinking out loud. Perhaps all I have just said is wrong. It isn’t after all the sovereignty which we need to dispute, but the formal recognition of it. Contesting Sovereignty is a whole different ball game to contesting recognition of that same Sovereignty.

      See, without being uppity about it, this is the essence of our constitutional debate which just isn’t happening. We need to grasp and understand the basics and the critical components which make us a country, and the constitutional certainties we can or cannot change. I mean get the sleeves rolled up and get this worked out.

      It’s not about EFTA or Europe, not currency, not Trident. It is ALL about sovereignty. EVERYTHING else is consequential, important yes, but consequential.

      Maybe I am wrong too to describe what we need as a transfer of sovereignty, when my whole argument is that sovereignty is already here. I should cease talking about the transfer of sovereignty when it is only the recognition of that sovereignty that needs transferred.

    371. Nana says:

      I did Macart. Saw the report yesterday on the tories wanting to resign and a tweet last night stating she’d be gone by Friday.

      Will she go? Will Ruthie step in and save the world? Tune in soon for the next episode of Tory Farces and bring soap!

      Guardian says
      http://archive.is/TuAnw

      Will not archive

      https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/five-former-cabinet-ministers-join-plot-to-force-theresa-may-to-quit-a3651546.html

    372. ronnie anderson says:

      Doomed Feb/Mar general election .

    373. ScottieDog says:

      Wondering if another GE is looming if so I believe SNP should be shouting Indy from the rooftops.

    374. Nana says:

      The plot is by remain MPs to topple the PM, destroy Boris and put a remain leader in place to delay and possibly destroy #Brexit

      https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/916194134259531776

      If it happens and there’s a GE watch the tories get back in again. What then Scotland?

    375. galamcennalath says:

      May’s future. Another general election. Maybe, however all that relies on the belief that the Tories are in chaos, leaderless, and making a dreadful job of delivering Brexit (whatever that actually is).

      Just suppose the plan is to crash out of the EU, but pretend to be generous and reasonable in negotiation so the EU can be blamed. In which case, it all seems to be going to plan!

      To be honest, I’m not sure whether they are incompetent or just mad. Or both.

    376. Robert Peffers says:

      @AlbertaScot says: 6 October, 2017 at 1:11 am

      “Interesting to hear about your family pulling up stakes and moving to Wildrose Country. I’m not sure if Peffers is you internet handle or the real deal.
      Either way it doesn’t ring a bell. But there’s a lot of landscape out there.”

      Just to clarify, those cousins were on the distaff side of the family. Our immediate branch, my Grandfather & Gran, had three sons and three daughters. The cousins who became Canadians were named Carr. My aunt did not go to Canada with her sons but to South Africa. She then, after the trouble there, returned back to Scotland.

      Also the eldest cousin returned home from Alberta to Scotland. So there are at least two branches of the Carr family still in Alberta.

      Another basic fact is that no one knows the extent of the old mine workings, (and not just for coal), in Scotland’s Central Belt. There was also much limestone extraction and clay extraction for brickmaking.

      I was brought up in the Lothian coal & shale mining area but moved to Fife in 1962 after working in Fife from 1952.

      I researched the mining history of my new home village of Kelty. Kelty village was actually built, both figuratively and actually, upon coal.

      I have old maps that show that, in a 2 to 3 hundred yard length of the west side of Main Street, there are 39 known shafts, (mainly it seems air shafts).

      The history shows that a man named Blackstock bought the mining rights in Kelty from the Monks at Dunfermline Abbey at the time of the reformation.

      In more recent times the council allowed a new housing development in the area behind my cottage. There are 5 known main mine shafts in that area alone and there has been much trouble with flooding and contamination since the residents moved in. That particular area has been downhill of historic mining for over 300 years.

      Here’s a wee personal observation. The street in front of my cottage is, “The Great North Road”, that runs from London to John o Groats. This has long been bypassed several different times and the main bit is now the M90.

      Now here’s the personal observation – on our side of that street we are level with the road but built on a slope. On the other side of the street, (where there has been no artificial attempts to stop houses dropping into old mine workings), there is a 25 foot sudden drop down to farmland. i.e. the land has sank 25 feet on the eastern side of the road.

      The long and the short of it is that no one knows where those old workings are and, as previously shown, the Scottish Central Belt is sandwiched between the Southern Uplands and the Highlands that were formed by geological upheaval. Incidentally the continental bit that drifted away was, aye! You guessed it – North America including Canada. I look out on Benarty Hill and Loch Ore Meadows Country Park.

      Benarty is an ancient volcano and Loch Ore is a deep volcanic hole. Benarty is a typical Scottish feature where the hill has a long slope at one end and a steep drop at the other resulting from the ice age glacial movement with the ice tearing away one end of hill as the hill was formed from harder lava from the old volcanos and thus diverted the ice flow. The area is still a source of sand and gravel extraction all around such as Benarty Hill.

      It is thus not possible to compare the geology of the Prairie States in North America with the geology of Scotland or indeed Britain. But the Westminster Establishment propaganda wing does not want us to know all that.

    377. heedtracker says:

      If it happens and there’s a GE watch the tories get back in again. What then Scotland?

      If England does not Leave the EU, they will have their very own Spanish/Catalonia civil wars and UKIPers will be back in business.

      Its still impossible not to wonder why exactly the giant BBC freak show made Farage a household name.

    378. One_Scot says:

      Events seem to be quite fluid at the moment. I hope the SNP are carrying a big mop and bucket.

    379. galamcennalath says:

      ScottieDog says:

      I believe SNP should be shouting Indy from the rooftops.

      Agree completely. IMO the SNP made a mistake in the last election by playing down Indy. Their biggest loss was from previous supporters staying at home. The prospect of IndyRef2 is what motivates activists and voters. For many, day to day party politics is just a big yawn.

    380. Ken500 says:

      When will some people not understand that in a democracy, The vote must be full and fair and a majority must vote for it.

      The unionists imposed PR on Scotland to try and keep control. It didn’t work but still distorts the vote. Otherwise there would be no unionists or other politicians elected in Scotland. When the ignorant, corrupt Press are lauding Davidson. They conveniently leave out that bit. An unelected Tory. Who go in by fluke. The Greens let her in. To see these people causing hardship in Scotland is excruciating. Spending money like there is no tomorrow on grotesque projects of no value. Deliberately cutting public services. The unionists /greens can’t count or read a balance sheet leaving people in misery.

      The knife assailant previously attack another youngster with such violence that the matter was reported to the Police, the Tory councillor, the Labour MP and little was done. The school knew the assailant was carrying a weapon. They had already been warned and remonstrated but not checked or suspended.

      The lying Council then got a redacted Report to cover up. Then blamed the youngsters for not reporting knives. The violent conduct had been reported all along the line and nothing was done about it. Then the underage pupils get the blame. The school authorities knew. The Police knew. The politicians knew. The Tory the matter was reported to organised the redacted cover up Report, along with their Labour buddies. Some people have no shame.

      All Spanish politicans are corrupt crooks with their hands in the till. Ruining their economy to line their own pockets. The Spanish have fleeced their fellow Europeans of £Billions. In corrupt property deals. Stolen people’s lives savings and left them with nothing on fraudulent deals on the Costas. Backed up by the pathetic antiquated legal system. The Banks and unregulated property holiday homes speculators. Borrowing from the London lending markets. At least some of them go to jail.

    381. ronnie anderson says:

      Kelly backing Sarwar Rowley Backing Leonard Gove backing May Ruthie wants to be FM anybuddy know where we can get ah 5 ring circus tent , btw the 5th ring is for the assembled media & assorted clowns .

    382. Breeks says:

      Writing is on the wall for her a M y.

      So, Ruth Davidson or Boris Johnston? Oh you lucky, lucky Tories.

      In the blue corner we have the idiot buffoon on a zip wire who can’t open his mouth without offending people, embarrassing everybody, and making an ass of himself while destroying the country. And in the blue corner we have the idiot buffoon photo-exhibitionist on a buffalo/tank/disability vehicle, sponsored by rent a bigot Orange Order, with a thoroughly nasty temper tinged with occasional sycophancy and even more occasional Conservatism.

      BoJo meets OhNo in a fight to the death.

      But on the up side, it’s the death of the Conservative Party, in a land far, far, away, so popcorn buckets at the ready…

    383. heedtracker says:

      Flash in the usual SNP bad pan from UKOK Severin. £3bn in EU subs go up in UKOK smoke and life comes at you pretty fast in good ol teamGB.

      http://archive.is/kLGoq

      Scotland’s hill farmers are the last in the UK to receive the special Lfass funding. Defra has promised to continue these payments only until the end of 2019 and the other funding packages under pillar two until the point of Brexit, Scottish officials say. It has not made clear whether contracts that last beyond Brexit will be honoured.

      If the UK were to remain in the EU, these funding packages would last until 2020 and then be replaced by new CAP programmes.”

      They voted NO, 2014. Its hard to care now.

    384. Glamaig says:

      Radio Shortbread using the Catalans as a proxy Better Together campaign this morning. Bank relocating, Catalonia will be out of EU, out of Euro, ‘stronger together’ etc.

      Made me wonder if we would see a reverse phenomenon here, with businesses moving here, if there was a well-timed statement at some point to the effect that under no circumstances were we leaving the EU!

      Big difference between our situation and Catalonia – the EU is backing its member state, Spain. UK will soon no longer be a member state… with part of it wanting to stay in the EU.

      Another thought – I wonder if the UK is sooking up to Spain right now because of Gibraltar. The world is getting more complicated by the day.

    385. Nana says:

      @Heedy

      The last report I saw showed more people wanted to remain in the EU and today I’m seeing a lot of people saying they will vote Tory if they stop brexit

      Won’t archive
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-majority-uk-british-people-stay-in-eu-not-leave-latest-poll-theresa-may-florence-speech-tory-a7960226.html

      For the tories it’s always been party first and to hell with everything else.

      As for the bbc they will go along with whatever the westminster elite tell it to.

    386. heedtracker says:

      Wasnt this the Federation that the UKOK tory arsewipes said would force a great deal for teamGB?

      Times
      POLITICS
      Theresa May lacks clout to clinch a Brexit deal, warn European diplomats
      Bruno Waterfield, Brussels | David Charter | Oliver Wright
      October 6 2017, 12:01am,
      The Times

      Senior European diplomats questioned yesterday whether Theresa May still had the authority to negotiate Brexit, while German business leaders warned of a “very hard” withdrawal.

      The Federation of German Industries announced that it had set up a task force to prepare for a disruptive Brexit, with representatives from companies including Airbus, which has a large factory in Hamburg, Siemens and Deutsche Bank. It added that the Conservative Party conference this week had shown “just how split” ministers were over Britain’s relationship with the European Union. This, it said, would make negotiations difficult.

      “German companies with a presence in Britain and Northern Ireland must now make provisions for the serious case of a very hard exit,” Joachim Lang, the federation’s director-general, said. “Anything else would be…

    387. Old Pete says:

      Agree with you the SNP should be pushing Independence, the last campaigns were lacklustre and lacking strength or focus.

    388. heedtracker says:

      Nana says:
      6 October, 2017 at 10:02 am
      @Heedy

      The last report I saw showed more people wanted to remain in the EU and today I’m seeing a lot of people saying they will vote Tory if they stop brexit

      Certainly its a good point Nana. But the idea that England will now change its mind and go back to the EU, would be one of the greatest national humiliations in the history of the world:D

      They’d be laughing stock.

      But then again…

      Last night BBC r4 tory news attack propaganda was aimed totally on Project Fearing Catalan for some reason. Just like BBC yoonster attack propaganda in Scotland, all the big banks are pulling out of Barcelona, well one, a wee bit, BUT more will follow them, simpered the beeb gimp.

      EU’s well shot of tory UK.

    389. schrodingers cat says:

      “happy is the man who belongs to nae party
      an’ sits in his ain hoose an’ looks at Benarty”

      old fife saying

    390. heedtracker says:

      FT, plunge in anywhere, the great tory Brexit catastrofuck rolls along. Just as the German manufacturing federation were going to force the EU to give the UK a great free deal, Orange Hitler was the UK’s extra special bestie too.

      Trump opposes EU-UK agri-deal in blow to May’s Brexit plans
      05-Oct-2017

      The Trump administration has joined a group of countries objecting to a deal between the UK and EU to divide valuable agricultural import quotas, in a sign of how the US and others plan to use Brexit to force the UK to further open its sensitive market for farm products.

      President Donald Trump has been one of the most prominent international backers of Brexit and has vowed quickly to negotiate a “beautiful trade deal” with the UK after it leaves the EU.

      But his administration’s objection to a preliminary plan, agreed to by Brussels and London over how to split the EU’s existing “tariff rate quotas” under World Trade Organisation rules after the UK assumes its own WTO obligations following Brexit, illustrates how Washington is likely to drive a hard bargain.
      It also undermines efforts by Theresa May’s government this week to portray the WTO deal with the EU as a significant win, something made doubly painful by Mr Trump’s past backing of Brexit.

      The risk for the UK is that as part of its post-Brexit transition in the WTO it may have to accept opening up access to agricultural goods from third countries far more than it wants — even before it agrees any new trade deals with such countries.
      A spokesman for Britain’s department for international trade said on Thursday that the EU-UK plans would be discussed “extensively with our partners in the WTO before proceeding”, in a reference to the UK’s desire to avoid a bruising battle in the WTO on the issue.
      The spokesman said Britain was seeking a “smooth transition which minimises the disruption to our trading relationships”.
      But the US joined other major agricultural exporters including Argentina, Brazil and New Zealand in signing a letter sent last week to the EU and UK’s WTO ambassadors objecting to the plan to split the quotas that cover everything from New Zealand butter and lamb to US poultry and wheat.

      Under WTO rules, those country-specific quotas allow low-tariff imports up to a certain volume with tariffs increasing after that. As such, they are hugely valuable to countries such as Argentina and New Zealand that depend heavily on agricultural exports and the powerful farm lobby in the US.

      While the UK was a founding member of the WTO and one of the first signatories of its predecessor, the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, its membership obligations until now have been managed by the EU.

      The EU-UK plan calls for the existing EU quotas to be split between the EU and UK after Brexit based on historical imports and consumption patterns.

      The US and others, however, argue that method is unfair as it would effectively allow the EU to reduce its obligations to fellow WTO members and set a low bar for the UK as well.
      “Such an outcome would not be consistent with the principle of leaving other [WTO] members no worse off, nor fully honour the existing TRQ access commitments. Thus, we cannot accept such an agreement,” the countries wrote.
      Emily Davis, spokeswoman for US trade representative Robert Lighthizer, said neither the EU nor the UK had presented any written plan for how to handle the WTO quotas to Washington. But the Trump administration was “actively engaged with its trading partners on the future of UK and EU tariff rate quotas following Brexit”.

      “Ensuring that US exporters of food and agricultural products have the market access in Europe due to them even after Brexit is a high priority for the administration,” she said.
      The UK and EU are due to present their plan to other WTO members during the week of October 16 when trade negotiators descend on Geneva for what is known as agriculture week.

      European diplomats have emphasised the importance to both the EU and the UK of striking a deal on dividing up of TRQs.
      Brussels is keen to avoid having to maintain EU TRQs at their current size after Brexit, something that would put increased pressure on its farmers once Britain leaves. For Britain, the stakes are potentially much higher, given the UK’s need to establish itself independently at the WTO in any Brexit scenario.
      The talks are bound up with other WTO issues that Britain needs to settle, such as what share it should take of the EU’s rights to subsidise its farmers.

      Among the UK’s plans is to ask that its new agricultural quotas schedule be established using a method called “technical rectification”, which would avoid having to secure approval from other WTO members. But in their letter to the EU and UK ambassadors the US and other signatories objected to that method as well.
      “The modification of these TRQ access arrangements cannot credibly be achieved through a technical rectification,” they wrote. “None of these arrangements should be modified without our agreement?.?.?.?In the case of substantial changes affecting the balance of concessions, the whole membership of the organisation may take an interest.”

      The UK redoubled its backing for the approach on Thursday.
      “We still believe that technical rectification remains the most appropriate procedure for introducing UK schedules into the WTO,” the UK trade department spokesman said, adding that Britain was “committed to working constructively and openly with our international partners throughout the process.”

    391. Ken500 says:

      The giant BBC wanted Brexit because they are all millionaire tax evaders. In offshore accounts. On public money. Basically stolen from the public who they despise in any case. That is why the Tories/Labour want Brexit to sython offf even more public money. Tax evade. To line their own pockets. The EU is enforcing stricter rules against tax evasion. Multinational corporations using patents/licensing copywriter etc. ( backed by US military) to create a monopoly charge what they like and drive out any competition. Illegally against free and fair trade Laws. Microsoft etc.

      They make vast profits and pay no taxes. Illegal under the Law. The EU is coming down on them. If they do not pay taxes in the EU. They will be prohibited from trading. They are robbing the poorest in the world. They are despicable. Greedy. Yet try to show themselves as great philanthropists looking for admiration. It they paid their share of taxes there would be less need for philanthropy. They are just greedy individuals out to make a fast above anything else, overcharge for inferior products and fool the public. The UK is the most divisive country in the world. The biggest wealth gap in the world. Due to the Westminster liars. They are starving vulnerable people.

    392. Dr Jim says:

      Shoosh! Don’t mention the Referendum word because of the divisiveness it causes, because apparently Scottish people like Catalan people are incapable of emotionally dealing with making decisions and that’s why the big grown up countries have to do it for us

      When the depth of your opponents argument comes down to nothing more than “Ya might fall out with somebody if you vote different” as an actual reason for denying democracy then all pretence of democracy has surely gone straight down the toilet, oot the windae and aff it’s heid

      They’ve done the finance thing, we’re not impressed, they’ve done the you’ll make your family foreigners bit, total dingy on that one so this is all that’s left Yer Ma or Yer Da might no like it and there’ll be awkward silences over the dinner table, my best guess is dinner table rows will be as few and far apart as folk actually having dinner tables

      Catalonia right now is having everything thrown at it that Scotland had with all the fake propaganda about banks leaving, food prices rocketing in the shops, plagues of locusts descending upon them, they’ll be thrown out of the world, pariah state stuff, we’ve all heard the lies that the governments employ to scare everybody
      Catalonia will weather all that fine, the army being sent in however is a different matter, we never had that…YET
      So the chances of Catalonia winning its Independence are over time hopeful because there is one problem Catalonia don’t have that Scotland does and that’s Sectarianism and Scotland’s got that in abundance and the Unionists use it like a machine gun to aim at as many folk as they can hit with it

      If Scotland could defeat Sectarianism I guarantee we’d be Independent by the end of the month and this is the area where our clergy of all denominations should be wading in, so why aren’t they?

      This week will see the SNP conference taking place with what the media predict will be a lukewarm affair of moderate speeches and safe hands talk but no scaring the voters with the Baad Indy word

      I predict they will be entirely wrong

    393. heedtracker says:

      George Kerevan for East Lothian
      15 hrs ·
      Spain’s Constitutional Court has suspended Monday’s session of Catalan parliament. Democracy being crushed in Catalonia. Where is Corbyn?

      Keeping his lying hypocrite head down George. This is the vice President of CND, who will buy Trident 2, but says he wont launch a Trident 2 nuke strike on people.

    394. Meg merrilees says:

      You couldnae make it up!!!

      BBC propaganda Website running with a report on the Catalonia/Spain situation.
      It is explaining that one of the reasons there is such a polarisation of opinion between the two sections of Spain/Catalonia is down to the way the media is reporting it SO DIFFERENTLY in both sections.

      e.g.

      In Catalonia, there was a massive strike – the Catalan press showed thousands of people on the streets etc and total support for the move.
      The Spanish press , on the other hand showed 12 youths trying to chase a car along the road to prevent the people from reaching their destination.

      During the vote pictures of a woman with a bloody face and another woman being pulled by her hair were widely distributed in Catalonia; these were not shown in rest of Spain.

      Sounds awfully familiar – apparently its the fault of the skewed Catalan broadcasting channels which are pro-Indy and social media – expect big clampdown on both those resources shortly.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41517569

      Incidentally folks, I suspect ‘Alberta Scot’ is a troll. We’ve given ‘the person’ enough reasons why we don’t want fracking for a clever lawyer to make an entire case against the Scottish Government’s decisions against “fracing” ( myself included). Respectfully suggest, time to move on…

    395. Meg merrilees says:

      Absolutely NO WAY (t)Ruthless will become the next PM. She’s literally terrified of actually having some responsibility. On a really cushy number up here- easy money- why make life difficult.

      They’ll never have any Scottish woman as the leader of the country -Nicola excepted – and she has a job to do here, supposedly.

      Remember EVEL – she can’t take the reins ‘cos she’s not in the proper part of Britain.

    396. Dr Jim says:

      @heedtracker

      Which proves beyond doubt that Jeremy Corbyn is not only a fake but a lying fake at that

      What kind of a waster says he’ll buy giant bombs for Squillions of money but then wont fire the stuff in the hope he can fool both sides at the one time and where are the brains of the voters he hopes to collect with this nonsense

      Is it a case of the right wingers think well at least he’s buying the bombs for the next PM to fire, or the folk on the left thinking well we’re safe for another five years

    397. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 6 October, 2017 at 9:51 am:

      “I believe SNP should be shouting Indy from the rooftops.
      Agree completely. IMO the SNP made a mistake in the last election by playing down Indy.”

      Oh! Get real, galamcennalath.

      The simple fact is that it was exactly what you claim it to be, A General Election.

      That is the purpose of the election was to elect members to sit in the Westminster Parliament. A parliament that is actually, the unelected as such, de facto parliament of the country of England. It is only nominally the Parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom.

      A Parliament of the country of England that now uses EVEL to prevent the Kingdom of Scotland from interfering in the decisions of the de facto parliament of the country of England.

      So this General Election had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with other than electing members to sit in the Westminster de facto parliament of the country of England that is masquerading as the Parliament of the no longer existing United Kingdom.

      Why then should any party be campaigning for independence in a General election?

      The very old saying that two wrongs do not make a right springs to mind but some people seem far too myopic to understand those simple facts.

      Perhaps for the next council elections in your particular ward you might consider campaigning to elect the candidates to the House of Commons at Westminster as that makes as much sense as turning a general election into an independence referendum on holding an independence referendum. (or is that concept also well over your head too)?

    398. Dr Jim says:

      England will now never accept a Scottish “Sounding” PM ever again, if they are to have a Scottish PM “HE” will have to have a fakey Englishy sounding accent

      I don’t think they like us even as much as they didn’t like us before our Rebellion

    399. Robert Peffers says:

      @Glamaig says: 6 October, 2017 at 9:57 am:

      ” … The world is getting more complicated by the day.”

      Not really, Glamaig. The real truth being that more people are only now becoming aware of the ong standing complications as the, (more people), awake from a very long slumber.

    400. Ken500 says:

      When will people realise Scotland is not Catalonia and Catalonia is not Scotland.

    401. CameronB Brodie says:

      Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of British Labour, a party who’s members are predominantly English nationalists. Even if they aren’t ‘nationalists’, they represent English constituencies, so they’re unlikely to have Scotland in mind, even as an afterthought. They still love our oil, Tony Benn made sure of that.

      Jeremy’s favoutite, apparently.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F43DqnMoWi0

    402. Robert Peffers says:

      @Old Pete says: 6 October, 2017 at 10:04 am:

      “Agree with you the SNP should be pushing Independence, the last campaigns were lacklustre and lacking strength or focus.”

      That’s an unfortunate turn of phrase, Old Pete, considering that in a “General Election”, the only “focus” can be to elect members to the de facto Parliament of the Country of England that is presently masquerading as the Parliament of the bipartite Parliament of the United Kingdom.

    403. One_Scot says:

      Yup, can never understand why genuine people who support Scottish Independence would spend hours upon hours on here moaning about the SNP rather than taking their concerns directly to relevant people or organizations that can help or advise them, other than the fact that they are not genuine that is.

    404. David McDowell says:

      “The Catalan chief of police is accused of failing to protect Spanish national police from protesters ahead of the 1 October independence referendum.”
      “Protect the national police from the protesters”?
      Got to be the most absurd inversion of reality I have read in a very long time, and we’re used to hearing absolute beauties.
      The psychotic, baton-wielding thugs who attacked defenceless pensioners and teenagers – needed PROTECTION?!!

    405. Ken500 says:

      The English have accepted to accept Scottish politicans all the time. Gordon Brown etc. The Labour mafia. At least he was elected. Davidson was not. Elected on a fluke of circumstances. Undemocratically imposed system. The Green voters let her in. If she ventures south will show up the total duplicity in league with the DUP. Betraying everything she is supposed to stand for in her community. The Tory way. Flash the cash they will be on the way.

      There is way to support FFA/Independence vote SNP/SNP. Some people supposedly interested in Independence. Could not be bothered to go to a polling station and put an x on a piece of paper. That’s how interested they are. Yet never ending shouting out. Some people never learn.

    406. schrodingers cat says:

      Old Pete
      Agree with you the SNP should be pushing Independence, the last campaigns were lacklustre and lacking strength or focus.
      —————————
      thats because our activists were tired, election after election after referendum after election etc, has been very wearing on the activists. I’m enjoying the break at the moment.

      on the doorstep during the last GE, even our own supporters didnt want to hear about indyref2, what they wanted to know was what brexit would mean. thats why the snp campaign focused on other issues and brexit. the unionists also picked up on this, thats why they turned the ge into a “stop indyref2” fest. and it worked for them.

      this is why indyref2 is off the table for the moment. and rightly so as it leaves the entire uk msm and public’s focus on brexit and more importantly those responsible for this goat rodeo. westminster.

      next week, the eu will officially announce whether there has been sufficient progress on the 1st stage 3 main issues (NI, EU citizens and the separation bill) for the next stage in the brexit negotiations, ie transitional trade deals, to go ahead.
      it seems pretty clear the answer to this will be a resounding no.

      what isnt clear is what Westminster’s response will be to the eu’s announcement. that is because a coup is being organised to remove treeza may and stop anyone from even replying to the eu next week.

      the issue of brexit has dragged on for years now but next week it comes down to the wire and if treeza survives the weekend, she will walk out of eu negotiations or continue to prevaricate about the bush, either way, we will finally know what brexit means.

      if she resigns, the goat rodeo will continue and we must hud oor wheesht, bide oor time and nurse oor wrath a wee bit longer.

      Nicola cant put indyref2 back on the table this weekend at conference, she would be accused of destabilising the brexit negotiations and get blamed for their inevitable collapse.

      never interrupt your enemy while it is making a mistake (N. bonaparte)

    407. heedtracker says:

      Dr Jim says:
      6 October, 2017 at 10:42 am
      @heedtracker

      Which proves beyond doubt that Jeremy Corbyn is not only a fake but a lying fake at that

      We have to face the fact that a PM BJ is more than capable of launching a Trident nuke strike though.

      Future PM BoJO’s stand up comedy on dead Libyans, at the tory clown show conference, really is a tragedy to watch. Our imperial masters in London are scumbags of the lowest kind, or complete champs and great dudes.

      It all depends what kind of BBC tory propaganda youre prepared to stomach. So for example this tory beeb gimp says the tories are environmental heroes, today. Teresa in fact wanted to lift the UK ban on ivory, but something’s changed lately.

      Ivory trade to be banned in UK ‘to protect elephants’
      By Matt McGrath
      Environment correspondent
      3 hours ago

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41512796

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservatives-ivory-trade-ban-2017-manifesto-scrap-pledge-illegal-poaching-a7748581.html

      What in the feck is a powerful antiques lobby, in the UKOK zone? UKOK hackdom’s a crazy crowd:D

    408. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 6 October, 2017 at 10:14 am:

      ““happy is the man who belongs to nae party
      an’ sits in his ain hoose an’ looks at Benarty”
      old fife saying.

      So you think I shouldn’t be happy then, schrodingers cat?

      I sit in my own house and I look out at Benarty across, “Loch Ore Meedies”, but I do belong to the SNP.

      Thing is, that in the vast majority of cases, those who can actually look out at Benarty are, NOT sitting in their own houses but in Fife Cooncil rented hooses.

      Which just might explain how we have ended up with the Labour Party stand in Leader of the moment being the Kelty born and bred, Alex Rowley MSP doing his bit for the. “Accountancy Unit”, of the Westminster Unionist, “British”, Labour Party.

    409. Welsh Sion says:

      O/T

      So, Nick Clegg (who remembers him?) has a new book out, “How to Stop Brexit”.

      He writes …

      “If you are someone who has never joined a party, or perhaps has been inclined to join Labour but has never got round to it, or if you are simply someone who recognises that the importance of Brexit is far greater than individual.

      At a time of national emergency, and for as long as Parliament is dominated by Labour and Conservative MPs, it is undoubtedly true that what happens within the two larger establishment parties is of the greatest importance.

      So if you can’t stomach joining the Labour Party, if you are ideologically inclined in a Conservative direction in any event and if you also believe that Brexit is the issue of our times, then joining the Conservatives is another route to make your views felt.”

      No mention of the National Parties or the Celtic nations, eh? Quelle surprise !

    410. schrodingers cat says:

      the lesson for scotland from catalunya is, that the idea the UN or the EU will step in and support scotland and not the UK, is for the birds.

      the EU might be more favourable to scotland because of brexit, but we certainly shouldnt count on it or include this eventuality in any of our plans for indyref2

    411. heedtracker says:

      Ken500 says:
      6 October, 2017 at 11:15 am
      The English have accepted to accept Scottish politicans all the time. Gordon Brown etc

      Aye but look at how Scots like Brown were prepared to kiss arse, to make them like him. They weren’t buying it either, the ingrates. Gordo loves you England.

      Wonder if he stills does. It would be great to hear the most unpopular PM ever in UKOK history actually speak honestly and frankly about what its like being a Scottish arse licker.

      In slimes our tory beeb chum Nic Robinson with,

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6280663.stm

      “First he said that Paul Gascoigne’s goal against Scotland in Euro 96 was his favourite football moment, then he supported a British Olympic team and now he seems to have completely lost the plot.”

      We were also flying the flag of Catalonia at Hampden last night Gordo:D

    412. Robert Graham says:

      Strange FMQs yesterday – Tory & Labour asking Nicola Sturgeon to intervene and remedy things they knew fine well she couldnt , first was Ruth the mooth saying she should make sure councils implement the guidelines re knife related incidents in schools and make sure they record all incidents , i believe this is delegated to councils who employ teachers and run and manage all schools .
      Not the SNP Government – Ruth .

      Next the labour caretaker asking for yet more mitigation of tory welfare cuts , while it was a very worthy cause he raised ,he was asking that she overturn a power reserved to westminster , and was reminded his labour party insisted the very powers he was referring too his party opposed devolving to Holyrood ( fix the mess we caused ) as bloody usual .

      I wont even bother with single issue Wullie, then the greens asking for cast iron guarantees on fracking that has already been attended to , i guess they had to use their allotted time somehow.

      With all the impending disasters on the Horizon this is the best they can do ? Oh well keeps them off the streets i suppose .

    413. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Peffers

      ““happy is the man who belongs to nae party
      an’ sits in his ain hoose an’ looks at Benarty”
      old fife saying.

      So you think I shouldn’t be happy then, schrodingers cat?

      —————————–
      No Robert, it just seemed like an opportune moment to use an old fife saying. nothing more.
      other old fife sayings include, “some say the Deil is deid and buried in Kirkcaldy or ye need a lang spoon tae sup wi’ the Deil”

      Neither of which are a command for you tae brak oot the holy watter or that Gordo Broon or Alex Rowley MSP are in league with Satan.

      apt none the less

    414. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      6 October, 2017 at 11:24 am
      the lesson for scotland from catalunya is, that the idea the UN or the EU will step in and support scotland and not the UK, is for the birds.

      They dont need to SC. They didn’t need to in 2014 and its hard to see any actual reason for them to get involved ref2, especially the UN. Yes I know, there are suspicions of 2014 ballot box tampering but its nothing compared to the tidal waves of red and blue tory UKOK propaganda pouring out of Pacific Quay, let alone all Scottish newsrooms.

      Cant see any UN or EU stepping in to Scotland and saying, BBC please may you at least attempt to be what you tell the world you are, fair, unbiased, truthy?

      And even if they did…beeb gimps would only tell us what a shower of shits they are.

      They’re all at it on planet toryboy. Orange Hitler’s being going after the UN and the EU,

      http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/worldtoday/donald-trump-attacks-un-calls-for-urgent-reforms/8960224

    415. David McDowell says:

      “Catalonia media reflects polarised Spanish society”
      The BBC being all “holier than thou” about political spin in the Catalan media.
      Includes many examples of the same blatant spin we see from the BBC every day – without a trace of self awareness or irony.
      Pure propaganda to promote the idea the BBC never indulges in such spin – unlike the inferior, “unevolved” Catalan media.
      Breathtaking hypocrisy from the BBC.

    416. Greannach says:

      Wouldn’t it be lovely if Ruth Davidson became leader of the English Tories? That would give one of the giants in Holyrood the chance to become leader of the North British branch. Maybe the intellectual powerhouse that is Annie Wells could step up at this time of crisis for her party. Or might we look forward to statesman-like Jamie Greene asking piercing questions at FMQs? Or perhaps that ever-so-ethical chap from Deeside, who maybe has a double-barreled name?

      Any advance on this trio?

    417. heedtracker says:

      This is who we have “special” relationship with, routinely explain the great tory beeb gimp network.

      https://www.cityweekly.net/BuzzBlog/archives/2017/10/04/patrick-harmon-body-cam-video-released

    418. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Peffers says:

      Why then should any party be campaigning for independence in a General election?

      The Tories in Scotland fought that election on one policy and one only… independence. There policy was of course to oppose it. Did that do them any harm? I suggest their approach might just have helped them rally the anti-Indy folks to vote for them.

      Did the SNP make any counter attempt to rally pro-Indy supporters to themselves? No, and the price was a third of their 2015 voters just stayed at home.

    419. Breeks says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      6 October, 2017 at 11:24 am
      “the lesson for scotland from catalunya is, that the idea the UN or the EU will step in and support scotland and not the UK, is for the birds…..”

      Sorry SC, but I disagree again.

      The lesson Scotland should learn from Catalonia is that sovereignty trumps democracy.

      Democracy without sovereignty is a leaf that blows in the wind.

      If Scotland makes the case for its sovereign legitimacy before any referendum, even without necessarily ending the Union, (although I grant you, the Union would be untenable thereafter), the International community would step in, in the event of Westminster having a tantrum and seeking to interfere or void the result. The law would be on our side.

      Said it before repeatedly, a referendum without sovereignty is just an opinion poll.

      Set aside the democracy of Catalonia, set aside the moral injustice of Catalonia, because to a great extent the International community’s hands are tied by Spain’s legal sovereignty and constitution. Any UN resolution for example would have to work its way past Spanish law before it could assist the Catalans.

      Sooner or later, and it should be sooner, Scotland needs to spike the guns of Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, and make sure that in the important quarters where it matters, it is understood that it is Scotland’s sovereign constitution which commands legitimacy and ascendancy, not Westminster.

      If we don’t want Westminster bossing Scottish voters around like Madrid is bossing around the Catalonians, then it is important that we get the International community, the UN and the EU in particular, fully up to speed on Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty and the irreconcilable absurdity of Westminster overruling that sovereignty.

    420. CameronB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat @11:24am today
      I agree, which as an ironic tragedy as an independent Scotland in the EU and UN, would strengthen the respect for human rights in both organisations, IMHO. iScotland could also prove to be the catalyst which brings the EU back to a more democratic trajectory. The EU can be rehabilitated and it’s democratic credentials enhanced but it will take committed political will and effort, as well as public support.

      It’s just a pity the UK media is such a rabid pack of boot-boys and girls, gleefully kicking feck out of humanity to benefit the “New Right”.

    421. Ken500 says:

      Scotland is not Catalonia. Catalonia is not Scotland.

      The EU UN know the majority in Catalonia did not vote for Independence. The vote has been totally manipulated by corrupt Catalonian politicians without a mandate. They had no mandate to hold a referendum. They did not get a majority. They are being totally manipulative and corrupt. Using the people. 2.3Million out of an electorate of 5.5Million. Pop 7.5Million. Where the opposition strategy is to boycott the vote is not a majority. Resulting in a 40% turnout. Is not a majority. Then claiming a 90% victory is just ridiculous. Total manipulation of the Polls of the vote, of democracy. Just complete and utter lies. How can the EU, UN support a complete bunch of liars. The Catalonian politicans went ahead without a mandate from the people. In Catalonia 1/2 million people do not get to vote?

      There has been wide spread condemnation of the violence. The Spanish police (all) carry on like that all the time. Maybe some change will come about because of it? The Catalonian politicians knew that could happen and did not care.

    422. galamcennalath says:

      A Scot as PM?

      The last PM who sounded like a Scot, and was therefore clearly identifiable as a Scot, who WON a general election would have been Ramsey MacDonald, I believe.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tEGATkkac8

    423. Ken500 says:

      Ranters who do not support the SNP have no legitimacy. Just a egotistical waste of space.

    424. heedtracker says:

      It’s just a pity the UK media is such a rabid pack of boot-boys and girls, gleefully kicking feck out of humanity to benefit the “New Right”.

      By any state propaganda standards, we have lived through of the most sustained and aggressive anti EU propaganda campaigns ever seen in any country in the world, here in teamGB, led and coordinated by the giant BBC. All of it primarily to get the UK out of the EU and destabilise the whole of the EU construct.

      Why for example, did BBC gimp network make Nigel Farage a household name, in the UK, as they set about trying to destabilise the whole of the EU in its entirety?

      And its not just Farage, same beeb gimp network has made far right France’s Le Pen a household name here in the UK, Dutch far right politician Geert Wilders same deal, even Austria’s far right Faragesque Norbert Hofer got the BBC wants you to get to know fascists in Europe presentation.

      All of them have lost all elections, but so what. Facts make no difference to BBC attack propaganda.

      We have to accept that the BBC is a fascist outfit, right here in Scotland, dont we?

    425. Derick fae Yell says:

      Anent the EFTA/EEA EU debate

      1 There is no question whatsoever the we can ‘just stay in’ the EU. That would involve a wholly new, untested, untried mechanism, specifically devised just for bonnie Scotland, and tearing up the EU’s accession criteria by a unanimous vote to amend Lisbon. That’s Brexiteer-style magical thinking (which the Yes campaign in 2014 was guilty of, alas). We can’t go into a referendum with another lot of magical thinking.

      2 Therefore we must rejoin. Which means A49. 2-3 years after independence to be out of the EU and, worse,out of the Single Market.

      3 As the Catalan situation is demonstrating there is precisely no ‘protection’ from being in the EU. People in Barcelona are EU citizens. Not exactly getting much help, or even neutrality given that the Commission has weighed in for Madrid.

      4 Therefore there is no particular need to have indyref2 before March 2019 to retain that non-existent protection. Caveat: EU citizens excepted, who may (depending on any transitional agreement, lose their vote. That’s a downside

      5 Go too soon and lose again: game over for a decade or two at least.

      6 Being out of the EEA, is where the real damage of Brexit is, for citizens and businesses. Not the EU per se.

      7 The fastest, simplest way back into the single market is EFTA/EEA. Simpler accession criteria, fewer parties to agree with, arguably a better place to rejoin the EEA from

      8 We can debate this til the coos come hame, but there’s a case that EFTA/EEA is the best way to win a Yes vote. Clearly 62% remain has not translated to 62% Yes. The events of this week have made that even less likely.

      9 EFTA states do not pay into the EU budget. They pay into specific programmes, of which ERASMUS is a good example, which meet their interests. That’s choice.

      10 EFTA has substantial input to EU legislation, and more important the infinite technical minutia, via the shaping agreements. No veto in the CoM it’s true, but not ‘no influence’.

      11 There is a debate to be had about customs union membership, from EFTA/EEA. ‘In’ is good for trade with Europe. ‘Out’ is good for trade with rUK and the Border. As both Iceland and Norway have the UK as their second biggest trading partner, both will have a vested interest in securing a trade deal with rUK after Brexit. Expand that to Iceland/Norway/Scotland increases leverage.

    426. Ken500 says:

      Scottish politicans have damaged the Scottish (UK) economy for years. Most are certainly not a laudable bunch. Illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion. Brown and Blair should have been put in jail. Colluding with Thatcher to scorch earth the Scottish economy. Forsyth, Lang (Barnett formula) etc. Kept their duplicity hidden under the Official Secrets Act. Lied and cheated for knighthoods etc.

    427. schrodingers cat says:

      breeks
      the International community would step in, in the event of Westminster having a tantrum and seeking to interfere or void the result. The law would be on our side.
      ————————-

      the illegality of the catalan referendum is a red herring, the EU would and could chose any particular point it wanted to oppose the catalans, eg, the sky was the wrong shade of blue on sunday or puigdemont was wearing a loud checked shirt in a built up area etc
      the people who make the law decide what is legal. see the supreme court ruling on scotland recently.
      ———–
      @cameron brodie
      before any of that can happen, we need to win indyref2
      —————

      Ken500 says:
      Scotland is not Catalonia. Catalonia is not Scotland.
      —————–
      I never said it was. what i said was
      the UN and the EU are the UN and the EU and they have previous in this regard. dont count on them.

    428. galamcennalath says:

      An encouragingly depressing picture of the Tory party …

      http://archive.is/JYwLk

      I do find it difficult to get my head round why the Tories are quite so incompetent right now. Perhaps it is simply blind English nationalism manifested as Brexit. They have lost focus on everything else.

    429. heedtracker says:

      Brown and Blair should have been put in jail.

      We live in a country where we sit and listen to our state broadcaster explain how tory PM Edward Heath would today face police questioning over allegations of child rape and suspected child murder on his yacht.

    430. Derick fae Yell says:

      12 (sorry!) Applying to EFTA and at the same time stating we intend to move immediately to an EU membership application and/or customs union membership, will not be the best way to get the Four to accept our application. More magical thinking. We have to sell ourselves as members, not piss off the existing members who need to approve our application. Which militates against customs union membership. And against a firm proposal to rejoin the EU immediately.

      And thirteethly Brethern and Sisteren, despite the Catalan situation, I remain fairly agnostic on which of these options are best long term. But the practicalities suggest EFTA/EEA is by far the better option.

      The more time that passes the more obvious that will get, purely because of the timing

    431. Ken500 says:

      For goodness sake if folk are so interested in Independence get up and go and vote. Instead of blaming everyone else. 13 Tories were elected. Let in by folk not getting up and going to vote. Stop blaming everyone else for their responsibility. Some of the most supposed ardent supporters of Independence did not even vote SNP. Some deliberately voted against them. Just beyond ridiculous and they expect to be taken seriously. Still enough voters still did. Thank goodness. The SNP won a majority.

    432. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell
      Anent the EFTA/EEA EU debate

      1 There is no question whatsoever the we can ‘just stay in’ the EU. That would involve a wholly new, untested, untried mechanism,
      ————
      also the eu has already stated on 23 occassions that an indy scotland would need to apply as a new nation under article 49. even nicola accepts that.

      1b. being in efta/eea means being out of the cap and the cfp. a point which woould gain support from the fishermen.

      1c. re influence, im not sure how much influence 10 scottish meps could exert even if we were full members.

      personally, i would take salmonds idea, EFTA, and keep it simple by conflating the single market with efta which is as you point out, leaving the SM is what is damaging the economy.

      keep it simple, no more 640 page white papers for indyref2.

    433. schrodingers cat says:

      typo, not 23, should have read 2

    434. Ken500 says:

      The EU and UN support legitimate causes. Not a lot of Spanish cowboys.

    435. schrodingers cat says:

      Derick fae Yell says:
      6 October, 2017 at 12:35 pm

      12 (sorry!) Applying to EFTA and at the same time stating we intend to move immediately to an EU membership application and/or customs union membership, will not be the best way to get the Four to accept our application. More magical thinking.

      ——————
      that is why stu mooted a few months ago that to win over supporters for yes would require another euref after we are indy

      so the position in indyref2 will be efta, until the people of scotland decide otherwise once we are indy, not automatic eu membership

    436. Ken500 says:

      @ SNP member who voted Green. Illegal? Lost the SNP it’s majority. Despite being warned repeatedly not to do so. Trying to get rid of Rennie which would not have happened in any case. Is in no position to lecture others. The Greens will be an obstacle to Independence.

    437. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 6 October, 2017 at 10:57 am:

      “When will people realise Scotland is not Catalonia and Catalonia is not Scotland.”

      Oh! Ken500, that’ll be about the same time as they realise that there hasn’t been even a pretence of a United Kingdom since the Westminster de facto parliament of the country of England got away with splitting up the former pretendy, (sic), United Kingdom Parliament along the lines of countries instead of the Kingdoms that the United KINGOM actually legally is i.e. A KINGDOM, with two, equally sovereign, kingdoms as equal partners.

      That means Westminster is now actually running the United Kingdom as the, (Unelected as such), Parliament of the country of England but retaining the title of, “United Kingdom”, while splitting, unequally, the former United Kingdom’s two Kingdoms up along the lines of four countries but NOT electing an actual Parliament of the country of England.

      In effect what we now have is Westminster being the, (unelected as such), Parliament of the country of England that retains for itself and assumes for itself the sovereignty of the former United Kingdom Parliament.

      Then, by use of EVEL, that de facto Parliament of the country of England has removed all pretence that the KINGDOM of Scotland still exists and that the country of England is now called, “The United Kingdom”, but is now devolving English sovereignty powers, to her former equal Kingdom Partner of Scotland and is treating Scotland as if Scotland were just another militarily conquered dominion of the Kingdom of England like the English Principality of Wales, (1284), and the English Kingdoms province of Ireland, (1542).

      Now don’t take my word for all that take the word of the Secretary of State for against Scotland, David Mundell who made the following official statement on national TV :-

      “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom.”

      Here he is on national TV confirming that claim:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIRUr4R7GQ

      By the way, that de facto Westminster Parliament of the Country of England goes even further in its official display of rampant English extreme right wing nationalism by consistently referring to itself as the British Parliament and all things United Kingdom as being British, for example calling the United Kingdom armed forces as, “The British”, Army, Navy and Air Force respectively

      This in spite of the fact that Westminster does not govern the Republic of Ireland, The Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man.

      To most of the people of England, (and also much of the rest of the brain washed World), England, Britain, Great Britain and the United Kingdom are regarded as mutually synonymous and interchangeable.

      The really strange thing is that while the English, (collectively), have an aversion to, “Johnny Foreigner”, as so obviously indicated by BREXIT UKEXIT, they cannot recognise the destructive, exclusive, English nationalism even exists but condemn, sometimes violently, the inclusive Scottish Nationalism that has no other motive than for both Scotland and England to respect each other and to seek to govern ONLY Scotland by the people of Scotland which term also includes those of the people of Scotland who have chosen to become Scottish people.

    438. Fred says:

      Very sad about Sillars, is he in a home now?

    439. Jack Murphy says:

      Meg merrilees said at 10:34am:
      “………During the vote pictures of a woman with a bloody face and another woman being pulled by her hair were widely distributed in Catalonia; these were not shown in rest of Spain.

      Sounds awfully familiar – apparently its the fault of the skewed Catalan broadcasting channels which are pro-Indy and social media – expect big clampdown on both those resources shortly…………”

      Thanks for that Meg.

      If anyone wants to be kept up to date,and wishes to avoid the State Broadcasters in Spain or the UK here is a direct link to one of the Catalan Broadcasters. A brave lot.

      On Twitter:
      https://twitter.com/catalannews

      OR direct to Catalan News:
      http://catalannews.com/

    440. CameronB Brodie says:

      IMHO, timing is pretty much the critical factor to successful strategic planning and policy implementation. It helps if the policy can also be justified and disseminated effectively though, hence the BBC in Scotland. ;(

      The Hard Side of Change Management
      Managing change is tough, but part of the problem is that there is little agreement on what factors most influence transformation initiatives. Ask five executives to name the one factor critical for the success of these programs, and you’ll probably get five different answers. That’s because each manager looks at an initiative from his or her viewpoint and, based on personal experience, focuses on different success factors. The experts, too, offer different perspectives. A recent search on Amazon.com for books on “change and management” turned up 6,153 titles, each with a distinct take on the topic. Those ideas have a lot to offer, but taken together, they force companies to tackle many priorities simultaneously, which spreads resources and skills thin. Moreover, executives use different approaches in different parts of the organization, which compounds the turmoil that usually accompanies change.

      https://hbr.org/2005/10/the-hard-side-of-change-management

      The Nature of Policy Change and Implementation:
      A Review of Different Theoretical Approaches

      https://www.oecd.org/edu/ceri/The%20Nature%20of%20Policy%20Change%20and%20Implementation.pdf

      A Formal Model of Policy Implementation in Multi-level Systems of Governance
      http://www.dimiter.eu/articles/formal%20model%20jleo.pdf

    441. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 6 October, 2017 at 11:36 am:

      No Robert, it just seemed like an opportune moment to use an old fife saying. nothing more.”

      My post, as I’m sure you know, was rather tongue in cheek.

      By the way I wrote a poem, many moons ago, that begins, “The deil aince cam tae ‘Muchty, did ye ken?”

      You may already be aware of the old Fife historic claim. Of the Deil preaching in disguise at Auchtermuchty but being exposed, when his robe was snatched away, to show his cleven hoofs.

      Here’s a bit about the Hogg Story here:-

      http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/ScotLit/ASLS/SWE/TBI/TBIIssue3/Carruthers2.html

      This is an excerpt about Hogg’s tale of Auchtermuchty & the Devil :-

      Amidst much clever ambiguity in Hogg’s novel, however, there is some interesting sign-posting. Robert’s problem is that he refuses to read the signs of good and evil, or even deliberately and wilfully confuses them. This relates to my earlier suggestion about the lost iconography of the devil in post-Reformation Scotland. At one point, in a moment of relative narrative clarity, standing essentially beyond either the sinner’s or the editor’s account, Robert has told to him the story of the satanic visitation, probably in the seventeenth century, in the town of Auchtermuchty, famed for its frenzied field preaching and all night sermons. The townsfolk are particularly enraptured of one itinerant preacher who tells them that they are the most miserable transgressors of God’s law, more or less that their town is Sodom and Gomorrah rolled into one. However, Honest Robert Ruthven knows, because he has overheard crows say so, that this preacher is the Devil. So Robin crosses himself and goes off to the latest preaching at Auchtermuchty, where he rips aside the preacher’s gown ‘and behold, there was a pair o’ cloven feet! The auld thief was fairly catch’d in the very height o’ his proud conquest, an’ put down by an auld carl. He could feign nae mair, but gnashing on Robin, wi his teeth, he dartit into the air like a fiery dragon, an’ keust a reid rainbow our the taps o’ the Lowmands.’5 Now this story is allegorically obvious enough in its application to the situation of Robert Wringhim, the Reverend Wringhim and Gilmartin (whom Robert at first takes to be a good Christian): all are wolves in sheep’s clothing.

      I’ll not reproduce my own humble poem as Rev Stu is not too happy with poems on Wings.

    442. Derick fae Yell says:

      Cat

      “1b. being in efta/eea means being out of the cap and the cfp. a point which woould gain support from the fishermen.”

      I personally know Shetland fishermen who voted for Brexit who have been open to the idea of EFTA for precisely that reason. Fishing is a fairly trivial sector of industry, size-wise. From memory, about twice the value of Golf to the economy

      Fishing may be a small sector, but the seabed which implicitly goes along with fishing, is not a trivial issue. That’s why it’s important to get enough of them on side. Oil and Tidal Energy.

      Anyone that thinks Westminster won’t try to partition off the Northern Isles to hang on to Clair Ridge is deluding themselves. We need to do well enough to block that before it happens.

      A position which protects our interests and which could win support from Shetland fishermen to Robin McAlpine to financial institutions. Why on earth would we NOT take that?

    443. Robert Peffers says:

      @Derek Henry says: 5 October, 2017 at 11:58 am:

      “That MMT economists could destroy in less than 5 mins.
      As Prof Bill Mitchell pointed out at the Labour conference

      Utter pish!

      Let’s see you disprove these simple facts, Derek:-

      Scotland is a net exporter of Food, (and drink), fuel and power.

      England, (and UK as a whole), are net importers of all three.

      This, even allowing for the, “Grand Theft Auto Power of, “The National Grid Connection Charges”, charges scam of UK government. That all oil & Gas revenues goes directly to the UK Treasury as earned from, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, when up to 98% of that revenue is extracted from what is internationally recognised as being under Scottish Jurisdiction. i.e. it cannot be extra-regio when it is recognised as a distinct territory.
      (You do know, don’t you, that the definition of, “Extra-Regio”, means belongs to no recognisable region?

      Then there is that other scam where the UK Treasury accounts show that Scottish produced exports that leave the UK from air & sea ports in England are accounted as being English exports. Not only is Diagio the largest exporter of Scotch Whisky but controls the 70% of UK’s Gin exports that are also made in Scotland but go from the UK via England.

      Not to also mention farmed salmon and fish landed in Scottish ports. Aberdeen Angus Beef, nor the soft fruit and other farm exports from Scotland that leave the UK from English ports.

      So too the scam of the Scottish Crown Estates profits? These too were lumped in with the Kingdom of England’s Crown estates in the 1800s.

      Of course, as you are such a great expert you will know all this, (and the many other scams), but as usual will sing dumb while shooting from the lip with the pish & bullshit you exhibit here on Wings.

    444. Robert Peffers says:

      @Derek Henry says: 5 October, 2017 at 12:12 pm:

      “The SNP don’t have a clue and will get left behind. The common Weal is quickly becoming a joke.

      Mair pish than the Hampden pish hooses pass during a Scotland vs England international.

    445. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jack Murphy says: 5 October, 2017 at 1:24 pm:

      “Scottish Parliament TV.
      FIRST MINISTER’S QUESTIONS.TODAY. 05/10/2017
      Now Archived and available to view:”

      http://tinyurl.com/ycpwf7qq

      Matter of fact, Jack, they are up on YouTube almost instantly these days. As are quite a few of the other stuff from Holyrood including from committee rooms.

    446. Robert Peffers says:

      @paul says: 5 October, 2017 at 3:12 pm:

      “D Henry is right, currency sovereignty is a prerequisite of sovereignty.”

      Oh! Stop talking pish!
      Especially other folk’s pish.

      Scotland, since 1707, has her own currency – it is called the Pound Sterling. It is agreed as such in the Treaty of Union and is thus NOT the currency of England – it is the currency of the Union – no more English than it is Scottish.

      Secondly the so called Bank of England has never belonged to either the country or the kingdom of England. It began as a private company called, “The Governor & Company of the Bank of England”, not because the country of England owned it but because the parliament of England banked with it.

      It remained a private company until 1946 when the United Kingdom Parliament nationalised it – as the United Kingdom is a bipartite union that makes the B of E as much the Kingdom of Scotland’s as it is the Kingdom of England’s.

      Now to get down to the Nitty Gritty – The Treaty of Union states that the Scottish Banks can legally print their own banknotes and all banknotes are, “Promissory Notes”. A promissory not is factually an I.O.U. It says on the banknote, “I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of, (note’s face value), at our head office, (head office address), and it is signed by the bank’s treasurer.

      For every batch of banknotes a Scottish bank prints it lodges, with the B of E, a special high value Promissory Banknote that is then put into the Scottish Bank’s special account in a B of E vault.

      So not only does Scotland own part of the B of E but the Scottish Bank Notes in circulation are indeed distinctly Scottish. Now, as currencies are no longer tied to a gold standard, there is no limit to what currency a country can print and put into circulation and thus there is no need to keen gold in a vault and the UK has indeed been printing and putting money into circulation at quite a high rate – (They call it, “Quantitative Easing”). It is though just printing money.

      As to UK National debt – the UK Government issues Government Bonds, (Gilts), and the B of E buys those government bonds. Then the B of E gives those bonds back to the UK Government but in the meantime the B of E is actually holding the UK government’s debt.

      So here’s the truth of a Scottish Currency – The Pound Sterling is a commodity and thus an International Trading Currency that anyone, anywhere can purchase. You will see all international trading currencies prices of purchase quoted against each other on the stock markets in newspapers and on radio & TV broadcasts and on the internet just like any other commodity.

      So all an independent Scottish Government needs to do is declare the Pound Sterling as their currency and recover the high value notes from the B of E vault and claim their share of the B of E.

      Then they can then please themselves when to untie the Scottish Pound from the English Pound. I would expect that as Scotland are net exporters of Fuel, Power and food & drink while the UK, (including Scotland), are net importers of all three that the Scottish currency would very quickly harden while the English Pound would weaken. This is NOT really a good thing but is far better that racking up massive national debt.

      However, the point is that most Scots don’t have a Scooby about the truth are have sopped up the Westminster propaganda like a sponge.

      Let’s see if you can disprove anything I have claimed in this comment.

    447. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Perhaps the main point of MMT is that as far as “national debt” is concerned, if a country has its own currency there is actually no need to have any national debt at all, no matter within reason how much is spent by that country. There would be no deficit, it would not exist.

      That really is true sovereignty, but from that point of view few, if any, countries are really sovereign, including the UK, though it does fake it a bit as it covers things up with QE, while calling it “national debt”.

      If all countries applied MMT it could be a world-shaker, unfortunately we do live in a “neoliberal” world (I hate that meaningless word neoliberal).

    448. twathater says:

      Graeme 9.49pm thank you for your contribution , I am not ashamed to say that video brought me to tears ,these stormtroopers are devoid of any humanity , compassion or feelings , what these animals for that is what they are did to innocent peaceful people merely wanting to express their democratic right to an opinion defies cognisant reality.

      How ANY government or organisation (EU ) can condone or excuse this gross and barbaric assault on its citizens is inexcusable

      Your video should be shared worldwide to illuminate and unmask Spain’s determination to CRUSH and obliterate any reference to democracy

      Would it not be possible to approach TV companies to attempt a wider audience to this brutality

    449. yesindyref2 says:

      To put Derek Henry’s intervention in a positive way, should the SNP’s council of economic advisors invite Mitchell or some proponent of MMT onto its council?

      Absolutely.

    450. Chick McGregor says:

      The letters left on the sign can spell out

      A HORNY BORIS DATING COUNTRY



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