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Wings Over Scotland


The declaration of aspiration

Posted on March 05, 2014 by

    210 to “The declaration of aspiration”

    1. Cath says:

      Aye, right. And a referendum will never happen…

    2. bookie from hell says:

      He thinks referendum is a time share

    3. Lee Rogers says:

      We should get EU/UN observers/negotiators to oversee/conduct the vote and the negotiations, to prevent rumpUK shenanigans, and for the removal of all doubt.

    4. MajorBloodnok says:

      Who would trust the opinion of a man whose position could be out-voted by a pair of pandas.

    5. muttley79 says:

      Mundell clearly does not think much of democracy. Dismal, dismal stuff from the Tory clown.

    6. The Rough Bounds says:

      Can that man Mundell manage to go to the toilet by himself?

    7. DougtheDug says:

      First Minister’s declaration of Independence Day will have no legal status and be merely an aspiration.

      The usual trick of making it Alex Salmond’s referendum.

      A Yes vote will be the Scottish people’s declaration of independence day.

    8. MajorBloodnok says:

      Members of the British Establishment are not natural democrats.

    9. Murray McCallum says:

      The Scottish Government are increasingly looking the more democratic and accountable to its electorate.

      In the event of a Yes vote, the independence date issued by the Scottish Government is final.

      David Cameron must formally reply to this undermining of democracy.

    10. Koster says:

      A ridiculous assertion, typical from Mundell

    11. Glass Girl says:

      Hmm, so why is his big boss Dave getting his knickers in such a twist then?

    12. Shaun Milne says:

      The love-bombing worked so well. The currency issue has knocked quite a few fence-sitters our way. This? Well, there’s nothing that will get Scots determined to do something than a Tory telling them they can’t have it.

      David Mundell, please continue spouting garbage.

    13. NorthBrit says:

      It might be helpful if Mr Mundell were to acquaint himself with the opinion of Professor Crawford (advising the UK on Kosovo), on the legal status of unilatateral declarations of independence.

      Professor James Crawford laying it on the line at the ICJ on behalf of HMG, arguing the case for recognising Kosovo’s independence:
      http://charlescrawford.biz/blog/serbia-kosovo-at-icj-a-disgruntled-crawford-speaks-

      We had been led to understand that the view of Professor Crawford (especially when acting for the UK) was “authoritative” and the “dominant legal view”.

    14. jimsie says:

      Is their no end to their Project Fear stories? Will they be threatening to put the troops in if we vote yes? Maybe the tories like Putins style of doing things.

    15. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      A cabbage spouting garbage.

    16. Training Day says:

      The opinion of this pusillanimous pipsqueak is unlikely to matter much in his own household, never mind in the wider world.

    17. Flower of Scotland says:

      Anyone listening to radio Scotland , some NEUTRAL economist , somebody Somerset ?
      BBC rolling out even worse shit than usual ! John Beattie saying this is all coming from SG figures ! Blood pressure rising again ! Hope I survive this run up to the Referendum ! I take it as a personal insult when people rubbish my country ! Vote YES !

    18. Stuart Black says:

      “Is their no end to their Project Fear stories?”

      No… 😉

    19. HandandShrimp says:

      Didn’t Mundell also say that Scotland ceased to exist and we became a county of England? I wouldn’t trust a single word the man says on the referendum. He is marching to beat of his own drum.

    20. Grant says:

      When the proposed Westminster borders are built. Can we ensure the David Mundells of this world never gain entry to Scottish soil.

    21. Tamson says:

      Whatever happened to that investigation into Mundell’s election expenses? Under some carpet in the Palace of Westminster, I assume?

    22. Feart, fat, greedy, Tory/Unionistst says:

      Feart Mundell will not be an MP from very much longer. An Irrelevance.

      Westminster is starving the most vulnerable to death, especially in Scotland. In an land of plenty.

      Floods, famine and fury. Broken Britain.

    23. Jiggsbro says:

      To be fair to Mundell, I think he’s referring to the date of Independence Day as an aspiration, rather than claiming independence itself would have no legal status. His point being that independence is so complex and scary we couldn’t possibly manage it in the time allowed.

    24. Morag says:

      I interpreted it the same way Jiggsbro did, but I’m open to correction.

    25. Alfresco Dent says:

      I wonder how many Britnats imagine Faslane as their Sevastopol?

    26. beachthistle says:

      ‘Yes’ have to do something about keeping the Edinburgh Agreement in the public eye/ear, and central to the ‘debate’ in general and re negotiations in particular. It is an ace that Yes has, and should be far more visible in the debate than is happening at present.

      At the ESRC funded “Future of UK and Scotland”‘s “IfYES” event last night, the scenario of a YES win was discussed/explored – in particular how subsequent negotiations may unfold.

      I found myself in the Scottish government negotiating role-play team (I was put there by the organisers) – for almost all the negotiation issues we had with the f/rUK government team, we were able to quote paragraph 30* of the Edinburgh Agreement, pointing out that their positions/stated intentions breached/contradicted it.

      For these reasons, I predict that the f/rUK government will increasingly pretend that/act as if the Edinburgh Agreement doesn’t exist, and effectively, but not formally, tear it up. To achieve this they will need (and get) assistance from the BBC/MSM, who have already started to stop mentioning the Edinburgh Agreement, or drowning any discussion of it with currency etc. noise.

      The Yes side must keep the pressure up re the Edinburgh Agreement, mentioning/quoting from it as often as possible, especially in media interviews and articles/columns – but also in pubs and on doorsteps.

      *30. The United Kingdom and Scottish Governments are committed,
      through the Memorandum of Understanding between them and others, to
      working together on matters of mutual interest and to the principles of good
      communication and mutual respect. The two governments have reached this
      agreement in that spirit. They look forward to a referendum that is legal and
      fair producing a decisive and respected outcome. The two governments are
      committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the
      outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of
      the rest of the United Kingdom.

    27. HandandShrimp says:

      Jiggsbro

      Perhaps, but I am inherently suspicious of their motives. If we secure a Yes vote I fully expect an awful lot of squawking from some on the Unionist side. Not, funnily enough, from Cameron. I think if it Yes he will abide by the result but I can see Davidson and Foulkes and others demanding recounts, arrests, martial law and God knows what else. I have an uneasy feeling that there will be an attempt to subvert the process. I don’t think it will suceed because the consequences of that would catastrophic but I do think the immediate period after a Yes vote (while we nurse the mother of all party hangoverss) the Nay Sayers will be desperately looking for loopholes.

    28. Greannach says:

      I’m just wondering if this is the first time Mr Mundell has been front page news in his life. He’s so bad even the Westminster Tories couldn’t make him Secretary of State. Or in other words, he is so useless, the British thought that Michael Moore and Alexander Carmichael were more capable. Wow!

    29. msean says:

      Ignore a yes vote from a referendum that they signed up to? The UK governments’ word would mean nothing then and might possibly could probably lead to all international deals struck being not worth the paper they are written on.Every signatory to a treaty concluded with the UK would be invalid effectively,and international sanctions and possibly regime change in London might possibly probably could lead to uncertainty in England/London.

      Good luck with that refusal while they protect democracy all over the world,just not here.

    30. mogabee says:

      Scotland’s position is calm and considered, whilst Westminster shouts and threatens.

      Mundell needs to grow up.

    31. Morag says:

      How is it possible that this man is the best the Conservative party could find to put up for election in its most winnable seat in Scotland?

      I sat through a hustings session in Peebles in April 2010, absolutely aghast that this was the quality of the representation we were likely to end up with, and the man who could be in line to be Secretary of State for Scotland. This is the party of Rifkind, Lang, Munro and many other genuine Big Beasts of Westminster, like them or loathe them. And now all they can find to put on the ballot paper for their #1 target seat is Mundell.

      I am told he is a decent constituency MP. Maybe so. But as the Conservative party’s “best and brightest” in Scotland he is frankly terrifying. I blush in shame to realise I am one of his constituents.

    32. balgayboy says:

      FFS, Can anybody seriously take this political pigmy statement serious. History is littered with these nonentity’s and unfortunately Scotland has had more than their fair share over the centuries.

      Time and attitudes have moved on in the 21st century and if WM want to get shitty on a YES vote, they do not have the wherewithal to change the outcome.

    33. Another Union Dividend says:

      Flower of Scotland @ 12.30

      The so called neutral economist delivered one of the most partisan accounts of the Scottish economy I have heard from any reputable economist. No mention that Scotland’s relative deficit is in a much better state than the the UK’s

      If the first week interns at the BBC had been the basis research they would know Money Week’s hostility to independence.

      Look forward to neutral economist from Business For Scotland
      getting ten minutes free reign.

    34. Feil Gype says:

      He says if we’re nae keeping nuclear weapons we canna be in Nato however if we are nae in Nato they wid have te remove them asap. Personally id nae bother joining and hud off for 5 years or so till the nukes are gone.

    35. Weedeochandorris says:

      Yeah Mundell also believes that Scotland actually doesn’t exist so that would tally with his latest thoery that it’s all meaningless. http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/6739-tory-mp-comes-under-fire-after-claiming-union-extinguished-scotland

    36. BigSteveChisholm says:

      O/T but interesting.

      Someone mentioned The Dead Cat strategy on the Guardian’s politics blog.

      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2013/11/24/the-dead-cat-strategy-how-the-tories-hope-to-win-the-next-el

      “Let us suppose you are losing an argument,” Boris Johnson wrote earlier this year.

      “The facts are overwhelmingly against you, and the more people focus on the reality the worse it is for you and your case.

      “Your best bet in these circumstances is to perform a manoeuvre that a great campaigner describes as ‘throwing a dead cat on the table, mate’.”

      Going on to describe the manoeuvre he explains: “The key point, says my Australian friend, is that everyone will shout ‘Jeez, mate, there’s a dead cat on the table!’; in other words they will be talking about the dead cat, the thing you want them to talk about, and they will not be talking about the issue that has been causing you so much grief.”

      Expect to see a lot of dead cats between now and September.

    37. Vincent McDee says:

      To be the most expensive ever tory MP (Having him elected had a £1.3 Million tag attached, 3 times the cost of bringing the 2 Pandas to Scotland) Mundell is not value for money.

      As Dereck Bateman says: ” I wrote last year how the British state was Scotland’s real enemy, not England and certainly not the English people. This is the best class preservation society in history and it will do anything and risk everything in the fight for its survival. To the Establishment, this is war.

      Instead of having an intelligent discussion to meet each others’ needs, instead of feeling out where there might be agreement and compromise – the very diplomatic arts that Britain urges throughout the world, including in the Ukraine right now – they put on their fatigues, broke open the weapons cabinet and prepared to blast the very people who are supposed to be on their side in this family of nations”

      http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/

      Not surprisingly, Mundell can not care for Scotland, he MUST scare Scotland…or else.

    38. Murray McCallum says:

      Independence day will be the 24 March 2016. As far as I am concerned only the SG can change that.

      It must be seen as a fixed date set by the SG. It is not correct to view it as “aspirational”.

      If it becomes clear that rUK are simply going to pan out negotiations with little intention of settling anything, I think the SG should still stick with that date.

      The pressure should be on rUK government to honour its obligations in the Edinburgh Agreement.

    39. Clootie says:

      Mundell has given away a insight into BT’s awareness of the real status of polling.

      Why would anyone with a massive lead in the referendum even consider making a statement with regard to Independence Day?

    40. callum says:

      The day before… Scotland, if we can learn anything from constitutional events in our past (1979 referendum, 1999) then we should be at our most vigilant in the days before the referendum and independence day because Westminster has rushed through secretive Acts of Parliament “the day before” on both occasions.

      Sadly, on both these days, by sheer coincidence, I fully expect internet communications to be faulty across the country

    41. Alan Mackintosh says:

      @ Greannach

      I seem to recall that Sec of State for Scot is a libdem post in the Condem gov deal. However if Mundell was promoted because they have run out of Libdems, that could only put the Yes vote up…

    42. Sandy says:

      You dont really listen to Scotlands only tory do you ?

    43. jingly jangly says:

      O/T but as somebody mentioned Crimea, When I heard it belonged to Ukraine I thought, mnnn, at skool we were told that Britian was at war with Russia and the Charge of the Light Brigade was in Crimea. So I did some research, Apparently Crimea was Russian but Nikita Khruschev who was Ukranian gave it to Ukraine in 1954. Worth reading this on RT, I know its the Russian side of things but we are not being told by our press what the background is. Now Eastern Ukraine is a different story all together.

      http://rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/

    44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “To be fair to Mundell, I think he’s referring to the date of Independence Day as an aspiration, rather than claiming independence itself would have no legal status.”

      One could see it that way, certainly, but if all he’s talking about is the precise date, why refer to “legal status”? Nobody has ever said a Yes vote would make us LEGALLY independent in March 2016, the date is just a target for negotiations.

      Unless he’s a COMPLETE cretin, he must know that by putting it that way he’s casting ambiguity over the UK government accepting the result, particularly in the context of recent comments like those I linked to.

    45. steve says:

      hold off for 5 years?? tell them before the 18th that the nukes are gone if its a YES vote, see if they like the no negotiation stance undertaken by the YES campaigners. After all, its only fair that the voters know the truth behind their vote!

      As for no admittance to NATO, this is just more lies from the NO campaign. They would never have a country to their Northern borders that has such an influence territory wise, left out of the alliance. I’m pretty sure if Scotland said, we need to join an alliance, if your not willing to let us in, then I’m sure Russia would like to use the airbases and submarine facilities at Faslane and Leuchars, the offer to join would be unanimous. End of another argument in YES favour.

    46. balgayboy says:

      Mundell is nothing in this referendum debate or it’s outcome.

      The Tory UK government may try to use some black ops in it’s denial but at the end of the day whether it’s 2016 or otherwise if the referendum vote is YES then Independence will happen.

    47. bookie from hell says:

      dead cat theory

      they have 9 trys

      used up about 4 already

    48. HoraceSaysYes says:

      What I find most interesting is his stating that it’s going to take more than 18 months unless ‘he is immediately going to throw the towel in on a whole range of issues’.

      Ignoring the blatant attempt to personalise the argument to being all about Salmond again, this doesn’t sound to me like someone going in with an open mind and willing to negotiate in good faith. Instead, it sounds like someone whose only thought is to wreck and obstruct.

    49. an_observer says:

      It’s clear he is referring to the actual date of independence, not the acceptance of independence by Westminster.

    50. chalks says:

      More things coming out from Ukraine…

      http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/

      There is also a wee piece about Crimea…namely that Russia haven’t really invaded…

    51. Training Day says:

      @Vincent McDee

      I’m one of those critical of Derek Bateman over his refusal (still) to acknowledge the real truth of what’s happening at the BBC, but his latest column is bang on. The toxic deluge to which we will be subjected from Westminster and their media proxies in the next six months will be without parallel in British history, and will be designed to make Scots feel worthless, helpless, and irretrievably useless.

      The consequences of a No vote are catastrophic, and will be at least as damaging psychologically to Scots as materially. We simply must get that message to people – this referendum is about self-respect and demonstrating that we are not frightened little children.

    52. Bell says:

      six months after inependence we’ll probably still be hearing horror stories from these deluded nutcases, and if the same clowns that run the MSM are still going at that point then we’ll continue to see them given a platform to spout the garbage.

    53. Breastplate says:

      I’m sure we can negotiate some things while being independent, just prioritise the important stuff otherwise known as “the wee things”.

    54. MajorBloodnok says:

      @bookie from hell

      Assuming, of course, that it’s the same cat.

    55. Morag says:

      Unless he’s a COMPLETE cretin….

      I think you’ve identified the problem right there.

      This isn’t some Big Beast choosing his words carefully. This is a wee mannie promoted WAY beyond his comfort zone mouthing off in words he thinks sound impressive but which he really doesn’t fully comprehend.

    56. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Anyone listening to radio Scotland , some NEUTRAL economist , somebody Somerset ?
      BBC rolling out even worse shit than usual ! John Beattie saying this is all coming from SG figures ! Blood pressure rising again ! Hope I survive this run up to the Referendum ! I take it as a personal insult when people rubbish my country ! Vote YES !”

      Flower, my patience is going to run out pretty soon now. The rules on paragraph breaks apply to you the same as they do to everyone else.

      (And since we’re here, punctuation marks don’t have spaces before them.)

    57. a2 says:

      This is fine by me actually.

      If he want’s to persuade his own supporters that it’s not going to happen no matter how they vote or indeed if they vote at all then many more of them might just not bother.

    58. Morag says:

      Funny story. At Peebles Show last year I was manning the Yes tent, and for our sins we had the Tory party tent next to us, on our left. It was a big marquee thing, and at one point they held a constituency “surgery” in it for Mundell to meet his faithful peasants.

      A couple of tents further on to our right was one promoting the Armed Forces. It seemed to be almost an extension of the Tory tent, with UKOK and BT badges on display, and Mundell approaching the tattooed infantrymen for cosy chats.

      This meant of course that he had to walk past our Yes tent to get to his Army chums. I was standing outside the Yes tent, leafletting everyone who came past. Trying to get David Mundell to take a Yes Scotland leaflet is probably one of the more pointless things I’ve done in my life.

      After the “surgery” was over, the faithful acolytes spread a white cloth on the table and set it for a meal. Mundell then sat down alone in his glory to be served hand and foot (and china plate) by the handmaidens. (The rest of us were munching burgers from paper bags.)

      Wish I had a photo.

    59. Fiona says:

      @RevStu

      “Unless he’s a COMPLETE cretin, he must know that by putting it that way he’s casting ambiguity over the UK government accepting the result”

      He is a complete cretin 😀

      However I agree with your take on it Stu. For those who haven’t clicked the link the Herald headline is “‘Huge concessions’ needed for 2016 Independence Day”. And then crucially, in the print version, there is actually a wee picture of last month’s “Yes does not mean Yes” Herald front page with Gideon wagging his finger. Just to remind us. This really is desperate stuff.

    60. iain taylor (not that one) says:

      Pity they don’t do IQ tests on potential MPs.

      Introducing it would be turkeys voting for C’mas, of course.

    61. muttley79 says:

      @Morag

      I cannot agree with you that the likes of Lang, Rifkind etc were so called Big Beasts. They were essentially middle class lawyers who had the backing of the MSM, until Thatcher got more and more extreme. If they had been around today the pro-independence websites would be taking them apart. The MSM completely dominated coverage of Scottish politics before the internet and social media came along. The advance of the SNP, from the middle of the 1960s to the 1997 referendum, is an even greater achievement when taking this into account.

    62. balgayboy says:

      chalks says @ 1.42:

      With all due respect to the situation in Ukraine or Crimea this has f**k all to do with what this website or thread has to do or with it’s purpose.

      Notwithstanding the serious situation there please let us be focused on our goal.

    63. Oneironaut says:

      I would actually be VERY surprised if they didn’t have a last resort trick like this up their sleeves.

      These guys are fighting to keep their cosy lifestyles at our expense, and they’re going to fight dirty with all the resources (legal or otherwise) they can get their slimy hands on.

      Anyone remember the last time we had a referendum on Independence in this country, and they sneakily moved the goalposts at the last minute?

      They will almost certainly have some last plan to derail this one. They have to know they’re losing, and they’ll be getting very desperate and preparing for their worst case scenario.

      I really hope someone is keeping an eye on them…

    64. Jiggsbro says:

      One could see it that way, certainly, but if all he’s talking about is the precise date, why refer to “legal status”? Nobody has ever said a Yes vote would make us LEGALLY independent in March 2016, the date is just a target for negotiations.

      Well, yes, that’s his point: We wouldn’t necessarily become legally independent on Independence Day. And it’s worth saying because there are plenty of people – including, but not limited to, complete cretins – who will simply assume that Independence Day means ‘the day we legally become independent’.

      The SNP may view March 25, 2016 as a target but it has nevertheless been widely reported as ‘the day on which independence will be declared [if we vote Yes]’. The date is quite a firm target, because it comes just before the Scottish parliament election campaign. Clearly we could go into that election still negotiating for independence, but I suspect the date is widely assumed – by the apathetic, the uninformed and the complete cretins – as the day we will declare our independence and go on to elect an independent government.

    65. Fed up with the tax avading right wing Press lies says:

      Why doesn’t the Scottish Gov implement the Leveson recommendations. (Have they got the powers?). To redress the Press imbalance and redress for the bias and lies. A balanced Press is one of the requirement of Democracy. Westminister controls the MSM, there is no Press freedom. Thatcher supported the Right wing tax evading Press (some benefitting from EU subsidies) to increase Westminster and their associates wealth, by starving people to death world wide.

      Leveson’s recommendations could address and constrain some of the blatant lies and false reporting by the immoral, greedy low-life, hypocritical, secretive, biased Press and their masters.
      The Scottish gov should hit back at the criminal Press, colluding in starving people to death. Chancers and liars. The MSM are now the murdering, lying tax evaders colluding with their associate murdering, lying, tax evaders world wide. All in it together.

    66. Morag says:

      Anyone remember the last time we had a referendum on Independence in this country, and they sneakily moved the goalposts at the last minute?

      No I don’t and neither does anyone else. We have never had a referendum on independence in this country.

    67. Lindsey Smith says:

      I wonder just how many contingency plans FM and SG have for the possible perfidy of HMG. I cannot see Alex Salmond not having thought it all through several times, he is a consummate politician. Is it possible he has long since asked for learned counsell on all of this, on the quiet?

    68. Arel says:

      To be honest I wouldn’t recognise this Mundellboy if I passed him in the street.

      Funny how the party with the least number of Scottish seats at Westminster have the biggest gobs sprouting the biggest load of cow droppings on this debate. Step forward “Lords” Forsyth and Lang.

      I have to say though I quite agree that achieving that March 2016 Independence Day is totally unrealistic…….. it should be at least a year earlier.

    69. Illy says:

      “To be the most expensive ever tory MP (Having him elected had a £1.3 Million tag attached, 3 times the cost of bringing the 2 Pandas to Scotland) Mundell is not value for money.”

      Just to put that in perspective: £1,300,000 could feed, house and otherwise support 65 people for a year better than I get paid.

      Since human brains are bad at visualising large abstract numbers, it helps to express things in a way that is understandable. With money, I feel dividing everything by £20,000 to give the number of people it could support for a year puts things in terms people can understand.

    70. Oneironaut says:

      @Morag
      Well it was before my time, but I’ve heard of something back in the 1970s, where Westminster rigged a vote that I was told was for some sort of referendum.

      Maybe it was something to do with the Scottish parliament, I don’t know.

      Sorry if I’m wrong on that one.

      I’m just trying to say, getting complacent when you think you’ve won can be a dangerous thing…

    71. Illy says:

      “I wonder just how many contingency plans FM and SG have for the possible perfidy of HMG. I cannot see Alex Salmond not having thought it all through several times, he is a consummate politician. Is it possible he has long since asked for learned counsell on all of this, on the quiet?”

      Of course, before he admits that, he’ll want Lamont to admit that Standard Life having contingency plans to leave Scotland if things go badly is just planning for all eventualities.

      I think that’ll be a long time coming.

    72. Morag says:

      Well, that’s what they spent on their election campaign in Scotland. It’s just that they only won one seat for all that effort.

      How much did the SNP spend on the same campaign (for 6 or 7 seats I think), and should we be asking how many people that could have supported for a year?

      Calling him the million-pound MP is fun, and deftly illustrates the ineffective nature of the Tory effort in Scotland, but going on to suggest that money should not be spent on electioneering could be a bit of an own goal.

    73. Illy says:

      @Oneironaut:

      That was the two-question devolution referendum, I think.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979

      There’s the link.

    74. Press freedom or cry 'wolf'. says:

      Herald Associates are tax evading US company. Worried about their falling, worthless, unsellable asset. Especially in event of a YES vote. When they would maybe have to make a profit and pay their taxes. Instead of winding up folk printing nonsense. Printing rubbish Headlines to try and make a quick sale. Or click bait – to impress advertisers. The trouble is folk get wise to them crying ‘Wolf’ too many times and switch off. Not a good business strategy.

      The overpaid, prima donna, ill informed, bias, non researched ‘journalists’, do not help either.

    75. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Who the Hell gives a Flying Wotsit for what Mundell says or does, apart from giving an opportunity for the more gifted amongst us to take ureic acid.

      To put him in perspective, he is the sole Westminster Tory MP and even with a Tory Government he cannot even be The Viceroy.

      FFS they have had three bloody LibDum MPs in that position in how many years and all he is allowed to look after the stapler at the Scottish Office. I think he is not allowed access to staples because they are sharp objects.

      Whatever this clown says is for humorous effect only so get stuck in and be creative please. I enjoy the efforts in that department the best on this site.

      I have the window open and the local Cathedral is chiming out the death toll. Maybe it is for the Union.

    76. Morag says:

      Well it was before my time, but I’ve heard of something back in the 1970s, where Westminster rigged a vote that I was told was for some sort of referendum.

      You are referring to the devolution referendum of 1979. The devolution on offer then was even more restricted than what we have now. It is a serious problem when people go around declaring that it was an independence referendum.

      One Labour MP, a Scot sitting for an English constituency, figured out how to ensure that the vote would not count. He tabled a motion to require that 40% of the total number of people on the electoral register had to vote Yes for the devolutionary settlement to be enacted. The Labour government accepted the motion, and so it was. This target was really impossible, at the time. It completely tore the heart out of the Yes campaign.

      This incident had wider ramifications, and indirectly led to the defeat of Callaghan’s Labour government and the election of Margaret Thatcher’s Tory party. We all know what happened next. I assume.

      One little wrinkle which is extremely relevant is that just before that vote Alec Douglas-Home, a former Tory PM, appeared on TV and promised us all that if we voted No and the Tories got in at the next election, they would bring forward a much better bill for a far more extensive devolved settlement. Of course that never happened, and Scotland was left defenceless against Thatcher throughout the 1980s.

      This latter point is absolutely crucial to the present debate and the “jam tomorrow” promises. I think it is really important that people who are interested in the independence debate familiarise themselves with what happened in the past, and 1979 in particular. Otherwise they are doomed to repeat that horrible history. (They will also be defenceless against Labour luvvies telling them that the SNP were responsible for Thatcher coming to power.)

      But no, there has never before been an independence referendum. This is the first.

    77. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Surely after a Yes vote the Scottish government have a mandate to represent Scotland as an independent country. I would suspect that Westminster would not be able to ride roughshod over nor implement policies to the detriment of an independent Scotland. The negotiation period should allow negotiation and agreement on the sharing of liabilities and assets, and both governments should turn their attentions to governing their own countries without unwanted interference from the other. The Scottish government should be able and supported by law to prevent an independent Scotland from being rifled through by an angry and bitter Westminster.

    78. Illy says:

      @Morag: I’ve decided to do this for any amount of money that has 6 digits or more that I see, just to put things in perspective.

      Like I said, human brains have a problem with large numbers, making them smaller helps people compare them, and using a divisor that actually has some average-joe significance lets people compare them to themselves as well.

      What convinced me to do this everywhere was when I did this for the cost of Trident.

      Trident’s replacement is estimated to cost £10 billion for a 25 year lifetime.

      So, £10,000,000,000,000 (A British billion is a million million) divided by 25 years and £20,000 per year gives
      20,000,000.

      The UK has a population of a bit over
      60,000,000.

      Doesn’t that make it easier to see how much Triden’t replacement would cost in real terms?

    79. Morag says:

      Illy, 1979 was a single-question referendum. It was the successful 1997 one that was the two-question one.

    80. Tory/Unionists should be voted out. says:

      Tory signature or agreement worth the paper it is written on? Honourable Members? Mundell out of the loop and out of the Club soon.

    81. an_observer says:

      What is this paragraph break rule that the ‘Reverend’ is getting upset about?

    82. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Once worked with a guy who was a keen fist-fighter (not a boxer – he was one of these blokes who would meet others in public parks at 6 a.m., surrounded by other guys who had placed money on the outcome. Brutal stuff.)

      I never saw him fight, but it seems he was pretty good. He once told me that if he was up against a bigger/better opponent then he would concentrate all his effort into landing one good clean punch, and that his ‘target’ would not be the guy’s chin/nose, but a point approximately eight inches further away. It’s the same principle that makes a good sprinter imagine the finishing line ten yards beyond where it actually is.

      This latest shite from Mundell should make us all the more determined to push ever harder, get the Yes vote way up there, preferably over 70% – the higher it is, the less excuse these people have to quibble over margins.

    83. edulis says:

      I have spent most of the morning listening to Murdo Fraser’s Finance Committee question various academics about Currency Union etc. Two things stand out. The contibution of Crawford Beveridge and Prof Andrew Hughes-Hallet demolishing the Unionist’s arguments. The Professor exuded his incredible knowledge and intellect so much so that Murdo was struggling to stand his ground and didn’t. He just didn’t have the arguments. The second point was that even those economists that have been hitherto more sceptical about Independence weren’t offering any sweeties to the likes of Richard Baker for Labour or Margaret McDougall (who she?). All in all a good morning’s work.

      You can see it all on BBC Democracy Live.

    84. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Well what do you know Mundell the Blundell has opened his mouth again and spouted utter b******s! Still no surprise there then. Can’t say I’m all that surprised, after all he is my M.P., not that I’ve had anything to do with him, thankfully. 🙂

      I recently attended a debate in Eskdalemuir where the ever so delightful Mr Mundell was debating against Joan MacAlpine. We reckon there were around 100 folks in the hall listening to the debate. No count was taken afterwards but by our off the cuff ready reckoner it was 50% YES, 25% NO and 25% undecided. During the debate Mundell said absolutely nothing that has not been said before, and been shot down in flames by Joan, pretty embarrassing really.

      The best part of his appearance was afterwards when the two debaters were talking to people from the audience. Joan had around 6 or more people around her asking questions and listening to others, meanwhile elsewhere Mundell was surrounded by, erm, ONE person! Just so that he did not feel left out my partner went over to him and gave him a newspaper…a YES newspaper and told him that he’d find the truth inside. Not only did he get a YES paper hand delivered but so did his son who was also there. 🙂

    85. TJenny says:

      Oneironaut:

      ‘I really hope someone is keeping an eye on them’

      If the Rev wasn’t busy catching up on yesterday’s venue suggestions etc, he’d reply to that with:

      ‘Waves’ 🙂

    86. sionnach says:

      @Feil Gype:

      If Mundell (or anyone else for that matter) thinks that nuclear weaponry is a criterion for NATO membership, he should look again: how many NATO members do NOT have nuclear weapons? Just one more unsupportable scare.

    87. Linda's Back says:

      Illy

      Trident replacement is at least £35 billions and perhaps up to £100 billions over its lifetime of service.

    88. balgayboy says:

      Morag says:@2.24:

      100% agree. Hence there is no “jam tomorrow” The only way is YES and regardless of the frightened or naysayers, just surely history has proven this as the right alternative.

    89. Oneironaut says:

      @Morag
      @Illy

      Ah ok, thanks.

      I’ve actually never really been much into politics. I think it was the Bedroom Tax that finally enraged me enough to get involved.

      It was my dad who told me about the 1979 referendum. He’d voted Yes and he’s still got a lot of bitterness over that sneaky 40% rule.

    90. Morag says:

      Anyway, the 40% rule is irrelevant now. The Edinburgh agreement allows for a simple majority. They couldn’t pull that sort of amendment at this stage. Or any amendment to the franchise either.

      The dirty tricks will take different forms.

    91. Morag says:

      Illy, I see what you mean about comprehending the money, but some expenditure on other things than feeding people is justified, and election spending in a democracy is one of these things. The point about the million-pound MP is about how little they achieved for their spend.

    92. Desimond says:

      From one hopeless Tory talking nonsense to another as William Hague WARNS Russia there will be consequences if they don’t listen to him.

      Suddenly the Geoffrey Howe slagging of “Like being Savaged by a Dead Sheep” springs to mind.

    93. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Just found a couple of links over on twitter some folks might find interesting…or not as the case may be. 😉

      http://tinyurl.com/m33d6kp

      http://tinyurl.com/q3btxmh

      http://tinyurl.com/kh87age

    94. TJenny says:

      Oneironaut + Morag

      Re the 79 referendum and the ‘jam tomorrow’ promise, I’m bewildered by the fact that those of us of an age to remember that disgracefully empty promise, appear to be the very demographic that is shunning independence, i.e. those over the age of 50. Why?

    95. Morag says:

      It was my dad who told me about the 1979 referendum. He’d voted Yes and he’s still got a lot of bitterness over that sneaky 40% rule.

      I remember it well. I wasn’t active in the campaign because I was very busy with my university studies. I just knew a Yes vote was the right thing to do, and surfaced on the day to go and vote Yes.

      I remember the 40% rule being introduced though, and the feeling that there really wasn’t any point after that. It set the bar much higher than could realistically be achieved. Going out to vote became more of a token gesture.

      One could argue that the Yes majority vote wasn’t real, because people had figured out that their vote would count as a No whether they actually went and voted or not. But you could also argue that the Yes vote was depressed by the people who bought into the rhetoric that what was on offer wasn’t good enough and we should hold out for more. There was a faction in the SNP saying that, as well as Douglas-Home’s false promises.

      So who knows how you can spin it, but the fact is that Yes did get over 51% of the vote that day, and Scots have never voted No in a majority any time an offer of enhanced self-determination has been on the table.

    96. Morag says:

      Re the 79 referendum and the ‘jam tomorrow’ promise, I’m bewildered by the fact that those of us of an age to remember that disgracefully empty promise, appear to be the very demographic that is shunning independence, i.e. those over the age of 50. Why?

      I have no idea. Too comfortable? Got as much self-determination as they want now?

    97. Desimond says:

      STV News discussing an increase in Tourist numbers in Scotland in the last year. Edinburgh Castle got a mention as the most popular paid attraction…guess where else got a mention…
      ..

      ….
      Thats right CULLODEN!

      #ParanoidYouBetcha

    98. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Anyone following thw Willie Young debacle might like to know there is now going to NO vote of no confidence held.

      http://tinyurl.com/mlxouk7

    99. Illy says:

      My divisor isn’t for the cost of feeding someone for a year, it’s the cost of a reasonable standard of living. I make less than £20,000 per year, and I’m surviving. And I’m not saying that campaign expenses are unreasonable expendeture, I’m just putting them in perspective. (And 65 people isn’t that many, really)

      “Trident replacement is at least £35 billions and perhaps up to £100 billions over its lifetime of service.”

      Lets do the math here.

      £35,000,000,000,000 over 25 years would support 70,000,000 people at £20,000 a year.

      That’s more than the population of the UK!

      £100,000,000,000,000 would support 200,000,000 people on £20,000 per year, or over £1,600,000 per year for 60,000,000 people.

    100. SquareHaggis says:

      @FlOWER of Scotland 12.30

      I had the misfortune of tuning in to that – was glad when the intrview was cut suddenly short though 🙂

      Tried tracking it down on their website but couldn’t find it (thankfully I suppose) but definitely worth airing on here.

    101. chalks says:

      @balgayboy – Sorry my Lord, what would you like me to post?

      The Ukraine situation is worth our attention actually. This site is all about how the media can twist things to suit their own agenda.

      Highlighting certain things going on in the Ukraine and Russia allows us to see that OUR media isn’t just twisting the truth about Scotland.

      I’m not commenting on Mundell cos it’s a waste of time. No one listens to him and the date for indy might be sooner or later than March 2016…who’s to know?

      He isn’t and either is Salmond, but Salmond HAD to give a timeframe to get everything sorted by, so of course there is no legal status attached to it as it is prevalent on the needs and aspirations of two countries who could have vastly different outlooks in two years time.

      Another pointless article by the Herald, but you waste your time getting angry about a Tory spouting pish.

      Go nuts.

    102. Desimond says:

      @Arbroath 1320

      Thanks for link…side story caught my eye.

      The Allan Grogan to debate with Margaret Curran Event should be really interesting!

      http://archive.is/dOwDU

    103. CameronB says:

      Re. Trident replacement;

      Several groups, such as the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, Green Party of England and Wales and Scottish National Party and some trade unions, prefer the money to be spent on public services or improved equipment for conventional forces.[4][39]

      Greenpeace has claimed the recent £1 billion investment in AWE is for secret initial work on developing a replacement.[40]

      In evidence to the House of Commons Defence Select Committee on 23 January 2007, the US nuclear expert Richard Garwin said that the plans were “premature and wasteful”, and that delaying the decision for 15 years following inexpensive engine repairs would save £5bn. He added that pressure to commission a new fleet of submarines was rooted in the shipbuilding industry’s urge to land lucrative contracts.[41]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Successor_to_the_UK_Trident_system

      Trident Alternatives Review and the Future of Barrow

      http://www.nucleareducationtrust.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77

    104. HenBroon says:

      What is it with unionism and the creation of these little bumptious, unctious, bombastic, spluttering indignant arrogant creeps. Is there a special production line somewhere that churns out their species? I mean little in intellcetual terms as opposed to physical. Mundell is a horrible wee man. A toadying toad clinging desperately to the side of the gravy train which is about to hit the buffers. How I utterly despise him and his ilk.

    105. jake says:

      Jiggsbro said:
      “To be fair to Mundell, I think he’s referring to the date of Independence Day as an aspiration, rather than claiming independence itself would have no legal status.”

      Rev. Stuart Campbell said:
      “Unless he’s a COMPLETE cretin, he must know that by putting it that way he’s casting ambiguity over the UK government accepting the result, particularly in the context of recent comments like those I linked to.”

      This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this “no legal status” argument. I think there is more to it than meets the eye. Mr Mundell has a habit of picking up information on future strategy, but in his desire to appear important and in the loop then in moments of forgetfulness he lets the cat out of the bag. He can be very easily seduced by any journalist feigning interest in his opinion to be indiscrete in this way. He’s not like Fooks who just makes nonsense up, Mr Mundell doesn’t have that capacity for inventiveness or imagination. The Uk Government and indeed the House of Commons will almost certainly honour the referendum result, at least on the face of it, but they’ll do so in full knowledge of the fact that the House of Lords in it’s capacity as revising chamber will be as obstructive as possible. 18 months may well be enough time for the Scottish Government to get their ducks in a row, but won’t be enough time asset strip Scotland and relocate the proceeds in the City of London.

      Or, as Morag said:
      This isn’t some Big Beast choosing his words carefully. This is a wee mannie promoted WAY beyond his comfort zone mouthing off in words he thinks sound impressive but which he really doesn’t fully comprehend.

    106. Morag says:

      Ow, HenBroon, that’s going to leave a mark!

    107. Jamie Arriere says:

      Just misread a BBC headline with a bit of a chuckle :

      Scotsman in Joke-telling Record Bid

      I thought they may be pondering that paper’s political coverage over the next five months – I bet none of their ‘jokes’ would be funny.

      However transpires it is a comedian from Lewis….

    108. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Illy, pretty sure that convention now is to use the american 1000 Million to mean a billion, rather than million million.

      As for trying to picture the vastness of the numbers involved have a look at this

      http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

    109. Aikenheed says:

      Comments allowed on BBC website re scrapping BBC3 – comments on bias anyone?
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-26447089

    110. Arbroath 1320 says:

      I missed that one Desimond, but in my defence I think it was the picture that put me off going anywhere near the article. Well that’s my excuse anyway and I’m sticking to it. 🙂

      Having now read it I found this bit rather interesting, particularly about the majority of Labour supporters being behind Labour and its campaign to “save the UK.” Somehow I think they are about to witness the biggest transformation in political history, if they are currently right, cause once Labour supporters have witnessed Alan Grogan’s demolition of Margaret Curran I reckon Labour for Independence will see its membership explode. 😉

      A Scottish Labour spokesman said: “The invitation to Mr Grogan was extended by the Law Society to speak at a fringe meeting.
      “We look forward to members clearly communicating to Mr Grogan that the overwhelming majority don’t support him and instead are united behind our party and our campaign to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom.”

    111. chalks says:

      Jake, I’ve a feeling it’s all to do with Trident.

    112. TJenny says:

      Morag – I neither know nor understand it. However, I think it’s something we have to find out in order to try to motivate them towards YES. Perhaps WfI are working on this as we speak. 🙂

    113. dmw42 says:

      O/T (a bit)

      The SoS for Portsmouth appears to be overstepping his remit by writing to the Fiscal Commission Working Group, with him (the SoS) giving the Fiscal Commission its ‘terms of reference’. ie:

      “I would urge the Commission not to waste a minute of their time considering a currency option that is dead…I would encourage you now to set out your recommendation for which of these options – so-called sterlingisation, the euro or a separate currency – would be best for an independent Scotland. If you feel these alternatives are less optimal than the UK Pound as part of a single UK, which can only be maintained through a No vote, I would suggest that you should also say so.”

      http://tinyurl.com/poofrjm

      On a cheerier note, the final paragraphs of Alex Salmond’s New Statesman speech:

      “On referendum day, all of the people of Scotland, not just for the first time in 300 years but the first time ever, will be truly democratically sovereign. Everyone will have an equal say in making the decision.

      And there will be a moment for everyone in Scotland, on referendum day, when they stand in the polling booth and take the future of their country into their own hands.

      This moment of opportunity, this moment of engaged sovereignty; this moment of clarity, and for many of reassessment, will come on 18 September. Let’s call it Scotland’s Hour. Because on that moment – and I believe from then on – Scotland’s future will be in Scotland’s hands.”

    114. Jimsie says:

      @TJenny

      Being well over the age of 50 I suppose I am qualified to give a view on this. My generation were completely brainwashed into being British and Unionist. When I was at school in the 50s Britain still had an Empire and we were indoctrinated into believing we were part of a superior race.

      I even recall the girls being taught to curtsey and the boys to bow just in case we were ever presented to a member of the aristocracy.

      These attitudes are a bit like religion in being difficult to shake off.

      Most of my friends of similar age will be voting NO despite my remonstrations.They are mostly quite happy in their comfort zone and see no reason to change things.I suppose they regard me as being a bit of a crank as I have been an independence supporter for 60 years.

      It is unfortunate but people only consider what they perceive to be in their interest even if they may be mistaken.

    115. jingly jangly says:

      balgayboy

      I agree with Chalks on this one, we were both pointing out that our MSM is distorting the truth in Crimea as well as Scotland.

      So if that is not revelant what is?

    116. Monty Carlow says:

      @Illy

      “So, £10,000,000,000,000 (A British billion is a million million) divided by 25 years and £20,000 per year gives
      20,000,000.”

      Nobody uses the British billion any more, not even the British Government. All published figures quoting £billions are US billions (1,000,000,000). Your calculations are inflated by a factor of 1,000.

    117. Illy says:

      British Billions vs American Billions:

      But their whole argument is based on historicity and British values! Surely they’d use the good old British Billion rather than those pesky sepratist’s Billion?

      Seriously, I wish people would use something that isn’t so damned volitile to describe numbers. Why can’t anyone use standard scientific suffixes? (k, M, G, T etc…) Then we’d actually know how much they’re talking about.

      (and yes, I’m starting to get a bit silly now, it’s been a long day)

    118. Bigbricks says:

      Re the 1979 referendum. I was living in a shared, rented flat in Edinburgh with 3 others. We had completed an electoral register form, and received polling cards for all 4 of us. However, we also received polling cards for a total of 6 previous residents of the flat. These individuals had been removed from the register in our updated registration form. We didn’t use the extra cards, but returned them with a complaint to the electoral registration office. The response was that they were unable to find the form to check it (although it had obviously been received, since we were all given a vote). At the time, I assumed it was simply a cock-up, despite the fact that these 6 polling cards effectively voted no.

      I still think that it was cock-up rather than conspiracy, but I’m also cynical enough to believe that the dirty tricks used by the WM establishment this time will make that sort of “error” look insignificant. We’re trying to fight a referendum against the combined weight of an incumbent government plus opposition, all of the regional and national newspapers, and radio and TV. We must do all that we can at a local level in canvassing and publicising our case in order to win (speaking of which a post from Derek Bateman on his blog gives canvassing returns in housing estates in Aberdeen/Dundee/Glasgow as DK 35%, YES 75%, no 25%). This sort of information is presumably also what the BT side is finding, hence the lovebombing/divebombing/you’ll suffer offensive. There is hope- hit the streets folks!

    119. Papadox says:

      Jimsie says:

      Touché those were the days and the big wall map of the empire!

    120. Desimond says:

      @Arbroath 1320

      Oh definitely. Hopefully the audience are not just Kezia Clones (Klones?)

      Im thinking Paddy Power could run a side-bet…

      Will Allan Grogan mention “Hope, Caring, Social Justice and Helping People” more than Margaret Curran mentions “SNP, Salmond, Sturgeon and Nationalists.”

      I reckon its 1/2 Curran for that one

      !

    121. Jimsie says:

      @Papadox

      Yes,every classroom had one with the Empire coloured in pink.

    122. Claire McNab says:

      I just re-read the Edinburgh Agreement. There is no commitment from London to accept the result of the referendum, let alone to accept any particular date for independence.

      The preamble says that “The governments are agreed that
      the referendum should: deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect”.

      The lay person will read that as both sides agreeing to implement independence if the result is “yes”. But the weasels in London are already be practising their sophistry, and when the votes are counted I expect them to flock onto the airwaves baaing that “respecting” a result is not the same as committing to implement it.

      Looks like the referendum campaign will be only the start of a much bigger and tougher battle 🙁

    123. TJenny says:

      HenBroon – Aw c’mon man – stop sitting on the fence and tell us what you really think. 🙂

    124. Arbroath 1320 says:

      I just hope they have an ambulance on stand by to take Curran to the local A&E Desimond. I fully expect this debate to go the same way as those involving Nicola Sturgeon and the 4 members of the “opposition”, where they all ended up in A&E after their “encounters.” 🙂

    125. Bill Walters says:

      I’m far from a fan of Mundell, but he’s quite clearly talking about the *date* of independence here, not whether it would actually happen. There’s nothing in the Edinburgh Agreement about the date of independence. It’s seriously disingenuous if Stu is attempting to imply that this quote means a Yes vote will be ignored (only a complete crackpot would argue that it’s a good idea to ignore a Yes vote and force Scotland to stay in the UK).

      I don’t even disagree with Mundell’s point particularly. If the negotiations are acrimonious then it is a bit optimistic to think it will all be completed in advance of March 2016. I don’t think that makes much difference long term, but if Mundell wants to make that point then fair enough.

    126. muttley79 says:

      Speaking during Mr Miliband’s visit to Edinburgh in October, Ms Lamont said: “Labour For Independence is SNP councillors and friends dressed up in Labour rosettes. It’s the kind of childish thing that you might see in the furthest fringes of the Edinburgh Fringe.”

      Oh dear Lamont. Are Charles Gray, Alex Mossan, Bob Thompson, Mary Lockhart etc “SNP councillors and friends?”

    127. Davy says:

      This may surprise everyone but I agree with Mundell !!!, because I believe Scotlands Independence Day should be changed to the 10th 0f March 2016.

      And on that day I can have the BIGGEST Birthday Party ever, and your all invited to celebrate with me every 10th 0f March for evermore.

      Remember the actual status of Mundell is quite remote, in fact I was telling my son not to step in him while walking along Cullen beach last Sunday.

    128. Arbroath 1320 says:

      To be fair, I’d like to see our Independence day changed so that it was later in the year. March is a wee bit on the cold side for me. 🙂

    129. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      ILLY

      A billion used in the UK was indeed a million million (10Xe12)but the American at a thousand million (10E9) is now used, even in the scientific communities and is effectively universal.

    130. Morag says:

      I’m far from a fan of Mundell, but he’s quite clearly talking about the *date* of independence here, not whether it would actually happen. There’s nothing in the Edinburgh Agreement about the date of independence. It’s seriously disingenuous if Stu is attempting to imply that this quote means a Yes vote will be ignored (only a complete crackpot would argue that it’s a good idea to ignore a Yes vote and force Scotland to stay in the UK).

      I think Stu has cleverly given us something to chew on and argue over while he catches up with a mountain of things that have accumulated as a result of his awayday yesterday. Not least, hopefully, telling us more about Salmond’s lecture and the Q&A session afterwards.

      He needs an assistant of some sort. He’s running out of hours in the day.

    131. Morag says:

      I’m with Arb. Can we have it in May or June? I want to have a barbecue.

    132. Papadox says:

      Robert Peston English Nationalist Bigot. Anti Scottish. Should EBC be employing people with such extreme views? Course they should it’s the EBC. WELL DONE ROBERT you’ll be moving up the greasy pole.

    133. muttley79 says:

      This is another Yes campaign fundraiser: this one is for Pollok.

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-pollok-campaign-base

    134. Marcia says:

      Jimsie

      I have seen the same with some pensioners but there is a way in there. I tell them that if there is vote No there is a good chance that with the spending cuts that their bus pass, fuel allowance and free tv licence will go. The wheels in their heads start working, if there is a Yes vote then they might preserve their benefits.

    135. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Does anyone know if it is possible to get an accumulator bet on Cameron and Salmond debating, YES win, Yes win about 59.9%, Scotland into the EU on Indpoendence day and the same for Nato?

      Do Yankee bests still exist?

    136. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      Hi Three canvasses in three estates in three cities Glasgow Dundee Aberdeen and one finding. They were all 35 per cent DK. Exclude them and it was 75 per cent Yes 25 per cent No.
      derek batemans info.

    137. G H Graham says:

      Hey, Mundell! If you or one of your staff reads these pages, I know that you are scared of Scotland achieving full sovereign independence.

      I also know the reason; you will be booted out of office & will no longer be able to feed at the Westminster expenses trough. Your odds of getting an ermine retirement robe will of course be nil.

      But we’re reasonable people. So, there may be a post for you in Holyrood. But you would have to rescind all your scaremonger shite before anyone would give you a minute of their time. There’s few things worse that a Scot rubbishing his own country. You’ve got 6 months.

    138. Arbroath 1320 says:

      I’ve just had a wee thought Morag.

      American independence day is on July 4th each year.

      Bastille day is on the 14th of July each year.

      Why don’t we split the difference and have Scottish independence day on July 9th each year. This way we can all start by celebrating American independence on July 4th and finish the celebration on July 14th. Three independence days all celebrated in one long 10 day PARTY! 🙂

    139. Jimsie says:

      @Papadox

      I see you”ve Pestonague too. Dreadful condition, terrible pain in the arse.

    140. Jimsie says:

      @Marcia

      Agreed Marcia, and I”ve had some conversions. However it is difficult to persuade those with a detached bungalow and a Mercedes in the drive ( I live in an affluent area ) to think of future generations.

    141. Albert Herring says:

      @Illy
      Nobody uses British billions anymore.

    142. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Well for those folks keeping one eye on the on/off/on/off love affair between Willie Young of Aberdeen City Council and Alex Salmond might like to know that the ban is off…AGAIN. 😉

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-26447645

    143. Albert Herring says:

      @BtP
      You won’t get an accumulator which contains a YES win with Yes win about 59.9% as one depends on the other.

    144. balgayboy says:

      chalks says & jingly jangly:

      No lordship here, if you care to read the rest of the comments, no one is mentioning Ukraine in response to the initial posting.

      I agree that the Ukraine situation is very serious and needs profiling but this particular posting is about mundell’s statement. That is all.

    145. Morag says:

      Well, it’s allowed to go off-topic some way into a thread. It’s not a crime.

    146. Oneironaut says:

      @Morag
      “He needs an assistant of some sort. He’s running out of hours in the day.”

      Well I’m available at the moment! 😉

      @Bill Walters
      “(only a complete crackpot would argue that it’s a good idea to ignore a Yes vote and force Scotland to stay in the UK).”

      And what exactly would happen if they did?

      Like I said, we’re dealing with a group of people who will definitely fight dirty to hold onto their positions of power.

      They thought Project Fear would bail them out, but so far it’s been a spectacular failure and looks like it’ll backlash against them more than help their cause. So they’re likely getting desperate enough to try anything now.

      These guys really aren’t living in the same world as the rest of us, and they’re unlikely to play by the same rules.

    147. balgayboy says:

      Well, I suppose so as long as it is not an ego trip.

    148. Steve B says:

      I would imagine that this is simply a case of Mundell being told to fly this kite in the hope that it’ll persuade one or two voters to stay with No or Undecided.

      I don’t think Mundell is high enough up the Tory Party food chain to be involved in decisions as to strategy or policy so he won’t know what Cameron’s strategy will be in terms of negotiations after a Yes vote.

      Setting a target date for independence this long before the referendum is a great tactical move, as it’ll give impetuous to the negotiations and try to head-off any delaying tactics from the UK government in that it legitimacy as it can be said that people voted Yes with this date in mind.

    149. Flower of Scotland says:

      Rev@1.47
      Oh! Sorry! I’ve never commented before on a social media site .Still learning. Got a bit stressed when typing, I was so annoyed! Put it down to my age and I will try to do better.

    150. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Welcome to this site FoS, don’t let Stu’s little “correction” of you earlier put you off from putting up more posts. 😉

      Don’t worry about it FoS, we all have to start somewhere. We’ve all been through the mire, hell some of us with some long standing in putting up posts still get rapped over the knuckles by Stu now and again. 🙂

    151. heedtracker says:

      Googled Mundell and he came up as firstly as age 51 which is a lot younger than he looks, 81 really but next up was this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5413036/David-Mundell-Claimed-more-than-3000-on-MPs-expenses-to-take-photographs-of-himself.html

      with this “David Mundell: Claimed more than £3,000 on MPs’ expenses to take photographs of himself
      Shadow Scottish Secretary David Mundell has claimed more than £3,000 on MPs’ expenses for cameras, photographers and photo-editing computer software to take hundreds of pictures of himself.”

      and this “The “Out and About” section of his website displays more than 700 pictures, mostly of Mr Mundell in various different parts of his Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale constituency.
      Mr Mundell appears to have set himself the task of visiting as many places in his constituency as he can and getting his picture taken beside the road sign as proof.”

      Scotland are we really going to lose to bizarre characters like this weirdo?

    152. CameronB says:

      Steve B
      Though I agree that Mundell is unlikely to be privy to Whitehall’s strategy, I thought bottom feeders tended to be carrion scavengers or carnivorous. No where near the bottom of the food chain, but generally untouched by evolution for Milena.

    153. Morag says:

      If he comes to my door I’ll set the cat on him.

    154. Cath says:

      ““I would urge the Commission not to waste a minute of their time considering a currency option that is dead…I would encourage you now to set out your recommendation for which of these options – so-called sterlingisation, the euro or a separate currency – would be best for an independent Scotland. If you feel these alternatives are less optimal than the UK Pound as part of a single UK, which can only be maintained through a No vote, I would suggest that you should also say so.”

      That’s unbelievable, and also quite amusingly desperate. They’re a committee set up by the Scottish government to examine currency options and monetary policies in a post independence Scotland. I hope they tell him to take a long hike off a narrow cliff.

    155. themadmurph says:

      O/T but not seen these google analytics before. This is for searches on Scottish independence over the last 4 years.

      Hope this work, and apologies Rev if it doesn’t.

    156. themadmurph says:

      Well, I guess that didn’t work! 🙁

    157. Desimond says:

      Latest Private Eye just arrived and scanned.

      After last months SNiPing, we have almost a full dedicated page of poor gags slagging Scottish Independence this time.

      Was I stupid to expect Private Eye to understand why Scots would wish Independence? It seems its now just part of the Establishment given its dismissive attitude to our wishes.

      Least the coverage has extended beyond Piloti moaning about neglected Architecture in Scotland, although it does include pieces on Perth Civic Hall and a Mansion in Elgin this edition.

    158. Cath says:

      Yes, welcome FoS. Stu does get a bit grumpy when people format and spell badly, and God help you if you ever inadvertently copy the time and date stamp bits when copying and pasting someone else’s post.

      Other than that, it’s a decent place!

    159. Iain says:

      Generation Yes ?@myYesScotland 14 mins
      Clear win for #YesScot in Dornoch Academy mock referendum – 58.9% back Yes. #indyref http://tinyurl.com/puy5tcm

      Apart from the Blether with Brian silliness at Strathallen, have there been any recent debates/mock referendums that Yes hasn’t won?

    160. Murray McCallum says:

      In the event of a ‘Yes’ vote, if it came to the crunch, I do not believe it is within the gift of Westminster to deny Scotland its independence.

      Any delay to the 24th March 2016 target date would need full agreement with the Scottish Government. I personally think it would be a big mistake to delay the date.

      The date 24th March 2016 will be important for many reasons, e.g. Scotland will be able to borrow on international markets from this date (if need be).

    161. bald eagle says:

      heedtracker

      mundell+photos

      do you think he’s a perv thats lost

    162. Onwards says:

      I’m also down with moving the Independence day date to the summer – surprised BBQ and party considerations didn’t influence the proposed date 🙂

      Maybe we could just copy the yanks with the 4th of July.

      I notice the queen is penciled in for the aircraft carrier naming ceremony at Rosyth on July 4th.

      No doubt this union jack fest will have been scheduled to detract from any US-linked publicity stunts from the YES camp..

    163. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Albert Herring OK, so a minimum turnout instead?

    164. Arbroath 1320 says:

      As has been said many times before, and will be said many time again in the future, the whole world is watching us. After we win the referendum in September I seriously doubt that Westminster will be allowed, by the international community, to do anything that will unnecessarily delay full independence for Scotland.

      Should Westminster try and scupper our full independence then it will be Westminster and not Holyrood who will be seen, in the eyes of the world, as being the pariah state in my view.

    165. Marcia says:

      Jimsie

      I agree too. In those case you would be wasting your time. You will never get through to some on the ‘I’m alright brigade’. Pity about the revaluation of the council tax that will hit them if they vote No …

    166. MajorBloodnok says:

      @Desimond

      Yes, sadly at the first test Private Eye has proved itself without doubt to be just another manifestation of the British Establishment, just a bit more smug with it.

      Having parted with £3.95 this week for the ‘Scottish’ edition of the New Statesman, I can confirm that it too is just another expression of the British Establishment mindset, replete as it is with its unspoken assumptions of British Exceptionalism overflowing with the creme of champagne socialists (Will Self and Alex Salmond himself excepted).

      Forget the slogan that we’ll have no more Tory Governments in Scotland if we vote YES; what I want shot of is the smug and self-serving British Establishment, in all its forms.

    167. Iain says:

      I actually feel sorry for Mundell. He comes across as trying his best but it is clear for anybody to see that he isn’t the brightest button in the box, probably caused by all that Tory inbreeding and the horse DNA in his genetic makeup.

    168. Alfresco Dent says:

      The Aberdeen City Council debacle is Wotherspoon another push. For those here with an opinion on the matter there is also a poll at the bottom of the comments section.

      http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/local/willie-young-no-confidence-vote-ruled-out-at-aberdeen-city-council-1.253695#poll

    169. Alan Mackintosh says:

      OT, something on the news about some EU law which apparently requires Bank HQs to be in same country as registered office. Lots of talk about RBS and Lloyds being forced to move to England/London. Why not move registered office to Scotland?

    170. Alfresco Dent says:

      Kind of o/t Stu so apologies there but some of you folk have been throwing numbers around. Have a look at these numbers!
      http://www.worldometers.info

    171. Flower of Scotland says:

      Thanks all! Rev has every right. I have been on this site since last year, but double spaced paragraphs passed me by !

      I love this site! ( got it ! )

    172. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @muttley79 says:
      This is another Yes campaign fundraiser: this one is for Pollok.
      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-pollok-campaign-base

      I’ve given them a contribution.
      I used to live in Kempsthorn Road.
      AND IT’S JOHANN LAMONT’S CONSTITUENCY !!!!!

    173. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Hope you moved out before she “moved in” Calgacus. 🙂

    174. call me dave says:

      RBS and Lloyds MIGHT have to move their HQ to London if it’s a YES. Seems that’s where most of the business was done. Well we have been saying thar for years regarding the bail out fiasco. At least that argument can be laid to rest.

      Oh and see this jam tomorrow… forget it. The SG are making their own honey, brilliant, and much better than jam which I have never tasted in 50+yrs. Two hives at Holyrood, the place was buzzing with the news today…I’ll get my gloves, hood and smoke can!

      🙂

    175. Bigdrone says:

      Mundell’s utterings maybe democracy – Tory style. Astonishing!

      Maybe also he’s not genetically programmed to make political decisions”

    176. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @Arbroath 1320 says:
      Hope you moved out before she “moved in” Calgacus.

      Me, Tommy Sheridan & Johann.

      Pollock truly has always been the wellspring of Scottish Socialism …

      😉

    177. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Here’s Robert Peston’s, sorry Jimsie and Papadox ;), got to say on the matter Alan.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26455655

    178. Albert Herring says:

      @BtP
      You’d have to find a bookie offering each bet separately, then put them in an accumulator, Yankee or whatever. Each part would have to be capable of winning on it’s own and not consequential on any of the others.

    179. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Well two out of three can’t be tto bad Calgacus. 😉

    180. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Me, Tommy Sheridan & Johann.
      Pollock truly has always been the wellspring of Scottish Socialism …

      Seriously, Pollock have set themselves a modest target, they have Johann to put up with, and this is exactly the sort of area where we want people who maybe haven’t bothered voting in the past to come out for YES in September.

      So this is really one that is well worth us supporting:
      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-pollok-campaign-base

    181. annie says:

      O/T Ashamed of my recent lack of faith that Dornoch Academy pupils may not be well enough informed for the mock referendum debate. Result Yes 58.9% No 41.1%. Dornoch leading the way.

    182. Brotyboy says:

      The Aberdeen City Council debacle is Wotherspoon another push.

      Damn you, predictive text/tablet/iphone?

    183. heraldnomore says:

      It’s been a long time but as far as I recall the registered office of Scottish limited company – there are separate registrations for companies incorporated north and south of the border – cannot be changed to an address in England, and vice versa – at least not without an act of parliament. So perhaps those august bodies may have to consider winding up the company in one state and transferring the trade and assets to another company registered elsewhere, which might just be a tad complex.

      But then Lloyds are also concerned about EU, and other UK and international issues, of which Scotland is but one. Still the headlines will read otherwise.

    184. heedtracker says:

      “mundell+photosdo you think he’s a perv thats lost,” if only he was that interesting and not just one more of Westminster’s narcissistic buffoons. £3k for a camera buys a lot of camera too http://slrhut.co.uk/product/ID992C5/google?k_clickid=02142506-5d16-ec09-03cf-00000de58839&gclid=CLCqn6P1-7wCFSMYwwodhiAAPg body only. He can prob claim the lense on his Scottish Office camera budget, as you do.

      As usual America can out weird our unionist weirdos like Mundell and his selfie fetish. Google Carlos Danger!

    185. Rod Robertson says:

      Personally on Sept19th if we have voted YES I will view my country as Independent the rest is mere detail,the country will be Independent

    186. gerry parker says:

      “AND IT’S JOHANN LAMONT’S CONSTITUENCY”

      I’d definitely like to shove a Yes paper through her letterbox.

      Ronnie, great chatting with you today, hope your shed gets fixed ok this weekend.

    187. jimsie says:

      @Cath&FoS.

      You know when Stuart is really annoyed when he uses Americanisms like “dude” and “buddy” ( this means you”re not his buddy). Mind you He has to put up with computer illiterates like me for example.

    188. setondene says:

      Someone asked earlier on the thread about why those who experienced the 1979 referendum cheating were now the demographic most likely to vote No. I was around at the time (a Yes voter natch) and remember a couple of fervent Yes voters, one an SNP parliamentary candidate in Edinburgh. They both took the failure of the referendum very badly but, instead of blaming the Labour cheats, they blamed the Scottish people for failing to live up to their expectations. The Scottish cringe writ large. I must admit I threatened to hammer one of them in the Jingling Geordie in Edinburgh if he didn’t shut his moaning face.

    189. Tamson says:

      Regarding the Pollok fundraiser – can people stop adding a ‘c’ at the end? The official spelling is ‘Pollok’, it’s a perfectly sensible Scots spelling and adding in the ‘c’ is an anglicism.

      Sorry rant over

    190. jimsie says:

      @setondene

      Agreed, Sillars 90 min nationalists and Ian Lawsons numpty nation jibe whilst having an element of truth would have been better left unsaid.

    191. Rod Robertson says:

      Sentondene Where in the body is the Jingling Geordie ?

    192. velofello says:

      @ Illy, Yes the British billion is no more, a billion now has 9 zeros.
      However a replacement for the defunct British billion is the trillion, which has 12 zeros. And guess what the the UK has £1.4 trillion, of debt, unfortunately and moving on by 2016 to around £1.6 trillion of debt.

      Your approach of reducing such huge financial sums into understandable units of alternative uses is valid nevertheless.

    193. I remember well the 79 referendum on whether we should have Devolution. We were robbed of our of Assembly. If it had went ahead, I believe, that we would be Independent by now. But the thing is, that to this day I am totally ashamed of myself that I allowed the Establishment to take Devolution away from me, my countrymen and women. Had this happened in any other country there would have rioting in the streets, but we did Hee Haw. I’ve made a promise to myself, I never want to feel like that again, so if they renege on our vote, I will be hitting the cobbles.

    194. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @Tamson says:
      Regarding the Pollok fundraiser – can people stop adding a ‘c’ at the end? The official spelling is ‘Pollok’, it’s a perfectly sensible Scots spelling and adding in the ‘c’ is an anglicism.

      All the ‘c’ people need to put £10 in the swear box:-
      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-pollok-campaign-base

      🙂

    195. ronnie anderson says:

      Am no genetically programed to take on the mantel of

      Independence, i,ll need tae stop wearing Primark JEANS,

      feckit Ill go fur broke an splash oot the cost fur a pair

      of WRANGLERS, watch oot Mundell they jeans come wie a free

      LASSO.

    196. alexicon says:

      Good to see a lot of new names on here, and some older ones too.
      There’s even a comment at 2:03 that doesn’t even have a name?

    197. Ray Edmiston says:

      All this from ‘the man’ who has been ‘overlooked’ three times for the Secretary of State for Scotland’s job. Aye a real ‘go getter’!

    198. liz says:

      @Marcia – re pensioners – I agree that they should be told that the NHS in England is being privatised on the quiet, that IDS is going to privatise the state pension and means testing will be introduce for all benefits.

      That of course means if they have any money saved or indeed own a house they will find their benefits cut.

      Private companies are interested in one thing and one thing only – making a profit – how are they going to do that with the state pension?

      The only thing I can think of is that it will be taxed.

      I have an aunt and uncle in their eighties who are quite well off and they are going to vote No because they don’t trust AS – I think if a No happens they will be in for a shock.

    199. liz says:

      @Desimond – Ian Hyslop has been leaning toward the establishment for some time now.

      You just have to watch HIGNFY to see that – he comes over like a giggly (public) school boy being allowed to play with grown-ups.

      He also recently did a programme on BBC about scouts and was in Glasgow filming the Boys Brigade which he was fully in favour of.

      About time PI had a new editor.

    200. tartanfever says:

      liz –

      you need to pass on this article to any pensioners you know, within 5 minutes you’ll have them voting Yes.

      This is what is in the pipeline for the NHS down south. Guaranteed that in the event of a No vote it will happen up here:

      ‘New drugs will only be made available on the NHS if they help people deemed to be a benefit to society under proposals that prompted fears elderly people could be denied treatment.

      The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) is due to change how it decides which drugs can be provided by the health service.’

      The full article was printed in The Independent on the 9th of January this year;

      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/new-nhs-drugs-policy-could-see-elderly-denied-treatment-9050297.html

    201. jingly jangly says:

      heraldnomore
      I worked for a company which was registered in Edinburgh, but operated in Aberdeen, Gt Yarmouth and various other places in the UK, when Devolution occurred in 1999, the company registration was transferred to the Gt Yarmouth office.

      Its nothing more than a nameplate move, The way Peston was reporting it, was that RBS would have to transfer all its employees to England. Utter nonsense, but as we know its not about the truth.

    202. Morag says:

      Many years ago there was a programme on Radio 4 in the “What If” series which dealt with the 40% rule. The consensus was that if the rule had not been introduced, Scotland would have been independent by 1992 or thereabouts. With our own parliament we would have been able to achieve that in the face of Thatcherism.

      I think the panel was right. That is what that little squit Cunningham robbed us of.

    203. Wp says:

      Just back from a couple of days in Dornoch,most people for Yes and many Saltires on show. These good people haven’t forgotten the clearances.

    204. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Morag at 12.24
      “They will also be defenceless against Labour luvvies telling them that the SNP were responsible for Thatcher coming to power”

      Yes, it’s odd how they can join coalitions with the Libdems who voted in rather larger number than the SNP to bring down Callaghan’s government. The SNP had made it perfectly clear that they would support a vote of no confidence in Callaghan if Labour did not deliver the promised devolution – and they did exactly as they said.

      This has turned out to be the best thing the SNP ever did!

      It was Thatcher’s complete disregard for Scotland that accelerated the rise of the SNP by establishing very firmly that Scotland’s will was of absolutely no consequence to London governments. She did a better job than all the SNP governments could ever do

    205. jingly jangly says:

      A wee poll that needs sorting out, note the working is arse about elbow!!!!

      http://iriswalker.mycouncillor.org.uk/

    206. ronnie anderson says:

      @gerry parker 5.2, Gerry many thanks for taking time to visit me,

      it was a welcome change to my day,Betty&Stuart Gamble came to

      collect the Yes papers, another 2000 to be getting on with,You

      are welcome to drop i in any time your up in Airdrie.

    207. gerry parker says:

      @Ronnie, it was the best couple of hours of my day.
      I’ll be back.
      🙂

    208. Papadox says:

      In the event of a no vote it should be pointed out to all the proud pseudo middle class Scots what will be inflicted on them as a show of appreciation of their solidarity with their good friends better together. HMG BT ESTABLISMENT will.

      Charge your children/grand children £9000 per year for university fees. That’s each.

      Your SCOTTISH health service will be downgraded to the English levels.

      Prescription charges will be introduced £9:50 per item.

      Free bus travel cancelled.

      If you end up in care your beloved house will be liquidated to pay your expenses.

      These are on the cards by your wondrous ENGLISH HMG, supported by SLAB and the LIBS. You are going to loose much more than the serfs you think you are better than, and it’s your unionist pals who are going to do it to you. The code word is AUSTERITY! and you are going to understand what it means as a wee thank you. CHEERS old bean Osborne, told you that once about 6 months
      ago EBC reported it once about 6 months ago and they ain’t going to repeat it just in case you latch on. Once you vote NO it’s to late.

    209. Ross Lowe says:

      i have the unfortunate pleasure of living in the borders – the constituency of Mr Mundell. I am very suprised that he actualy knows that there is a referebdum in Sotland. with his frequent trips to Mumbai and his frequent visits to ckoud cuckoo land that he thinks himself in a posiition to comment. This from a man that states Scotland does exist constitutionally. Congradulations to Mr Mundell lasting 10 years as a the last tory MP and a 18 carat idiot.



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