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Wings Over Scotland

The Charlatans

Posted on August 07, 2019 by

Honestly, readers, our job is like shooting fish in a barrel sometimes.

Gosh, whoever would take such a scandalous and unprincipled position?

Oh yeah, we remember.

But hey, let’s not forget this guy:

Because, y’know, on “internationalism”:

And on the terrible blight of flag-loving “nationalists”:

And on “once in a generation, you lost, it’s over, never again”:

Come on, Unionists, at least make it difficult for us.

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    1. 07 08 19 14:56

      The Charlatans | speymouth

    2. 09 08 19 11:17

      The Charlatans –

    170 to “The Charlatans”

    1. DanTDog says:

      By the time Labour might be in any position to “block” or “allow” another Indy Ref, Scotland will already have voted on it…

    2. Merkin Scot says:

      I am getting dizzy trying to follow all these about turns by the Yoon fanatics.

    3. Cubby says:

      British Nationalists heads are exploding all over the UK.

      English Nationalists don’t give a monkeys.

      The UK Union is on its deathbed.

    4. defo says:

      North Cuntry Boy

    5. Dr Jim says:

      Unionists are like Seagulls, if you stare them down they back away, but if you don’t keep an eye on them they’ll steal your chips

    6. Hamish100 says:

      bbc tv.

      British seas british fish— (mostly Scottish shhhhhhhhhh)

    7. kapelmeister says:

      Ian Murray is all for allowing people to change their minds.
      It’s just that he’s against them voting again.

    8. Doug Bryce says:

      Ruth Davidson is clearly a *nationalist*.

      Obviously Scottish independence doesn’t fit with her own romantic ideal of rule Britannia nationalism.

      Process of Brexit has exposed who the real nationalists are – the Tory xenophobes that want to close our borders to foreign trade and immigration. If Ruth had any principles left she would quit the Tory party and disassociate herself from such nationalistic fervor.

      This cartoon sums it up…

    9. kapelmeister says:

      You just know that Alister Jack wants to put a union Jack in every classroom of every school in Scotland and make it compulsory for all pupils to stand and sing Rule Britannia every morning before lessons.

    10. Abulhaq says:

      This is the sort of company Ian Murray keeps.
      Remember he’s a self-styled internationalist opposed to nationalism, particulary the Scottish, non violent, variety.
      Palestinian Nats pass the triage mechanism no matter how violent the back story. And lets not talk about the systemic financial corruption and clientism operating in Gaza and the West Bank.
      The above was 2015, nothing changed since.
      With Scots of this type even brain surgery could not extract the retarding unionism.

    11. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING: Richard Leonard responds to John McDonnell’s comments: “I met with John this morning, and I made clear to him that a second independence referendum is unwanted by the people of Scotland and it is unnecessary.
      “The 2014 referendum was a once in a generation vote. “

      So, having blown off both his feet, Leonard now takes aim at his head.

    12. doug bryce says:

      ^ dont joke about Alister Jack.

      prior to becoming Secretary of State his main action as MP was to complain that Scottish proms didn’t give him chance to sing along with Rule Britannia.

    13. kapelmeister says:

      Richard Leonard has apparently met McDonnell this morning and told him that the people of Scotland do not want another indyref.

      Did Richard not see the Ashcroft poll? Or maybe he relies for his news on Auntie Beeb.

    14. tartanpigsy says:

      Not wanting to be a pain but I guess a lot of you haven’t seen this yet.
      It’s an important project, and the timing even more so. Imports from the far east will get a whole lot harder after 31st October so it’s imperative this succeeds.
      We state in the blurb that most of the stock will be held for use in an active campaign period, in whatever form that takes. These flags are for you and your Yes groups.
      Lets Do This

    15. brewsed says:

      From the ‘you could not make it up’ department…


      In 2014, Labour led the campaign to keep the United Kingdom ogether and to protect working people from the austerity that would have come with separation.

      Since then, our party has too Often sounded like we do not now where we stand on this issue.

      As Labour Party candidates in Scotland we want to make it lear: we oppose another independence referendum; we are against the uncertainty and economic upheaval that leaving the UK would cause and; as the Tories threaten our place in Europe, we do not believe the answer to nationalism is more nationalism.

      Pam Duncan-Glancy, Glasgow North
      Patricia Ferguson, Glasgow North West
      Sheila Gilmore, Edinburgh East
      Faten Hameed, Glasgow Central
      Andrew Hilland, Lanark and Hamilton East
      Alison MacCorquodale, Na h•Eileanan an lar
      Monique McAdams, East Kllbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow
      Martin McCluskey, Inverclyde
      Jean Anne Mitchell, West Dunbartonshire
      tvloira Ramage, Paisley and Renfrewshire South
      Alison Taylor, Paisley and Renfrewshire North
      Kate Watson, Glasgow East

    16. call me dave says:

      But ..but “it was McDonnell’s personal opinion” says auntie wie a kilt’s shortbread news, so it doesn’t count!

      But..but auntie!… Alex Salmond…”Once in a generation opportunity” was his personal opinion.

      Aye but that’s another thing eh! Because!

      All going along nicely. Won’t be long now win or lose.

    17. Morgatron says:

      They now know it’s over for them at the ballot box , so they must stop democracy at any level is now their mantra. They have turned the panic dial all the way to 11 ,c 10 isn’t the loudest ,cause this will go to 11. They care not one fuck for us , this is all about them , their livelihoods and their status.

    18. Capella says:

      The unionists really are scurrying about like headless chickens this morning. Dougie Alexander was interviewed for the World at One and spat feathers about how “internationalist” the Labour Party is and how they have no truck with “nationalists” who are really Tories.

      I think the Kool Aid has stopped working.

      Better Together still?

    19. Petra says:

      Ever thought that it might be this crowd that actually put some people off of supporting independence? There’ll be no decent opposition in our Independent Parliament if this continues to be the calibre of Scottish politicians that we’re lumbered with. Let’s hope that some intelligent, principled youngsters will emerge to replace this bunch of undemocratic, hypocritical liars when they get the heave-ho (in the very near future).

    20. Proud Cybernat says:

      Corbyn backs McDonnell….

      Peter A Smith
      Verified account

      1h1 hour ago

      I asked John McDonnell what he meant when he said not blocking indyref2 is “our view” – who is ‘our’? He says it’s Jeremy Corbyn‘s view as well – if Scottish people want indyref2, Labour will not block it. “As the situation is at the moment, we will not block it… I also asked about his language, referring to Westminster as the “English parliament.” He says that was a slip of the tongue.

    21. Capella says:

      @ Petra – have you seen the characters at Westminster? There are some decent intelligent politicians there but the ones with the loudest mouths are quite warped, the ERG for example and the Labour Blairites.

    22. robbo says:

      We shouldn’t forget wee ‘willie’ said

      It’s bad enough with Boris Johnson bungling on Brexit and independence but to have the Labour Party’s Chancellor piling in makes it a whole lot worse. Only the Liberal Democrats are robustly for Scotland’s place in the UK and the EU.

      Then goes and picks some strawberries for Tesco’s no doubt, with full on butchers apron fleg!

    23. Tam the Bam. says:

      Live phone-in on Sheilagh Foggerty (LBC RADIO)

      Subject: Scottish Independence.

    24. katherine hamilton says:

      Slip of the tongue, eh? Aye right. His mindset fell oot. They think they own us.
      Can Labour re-grow after Indy? They’ll need me to come back. No f*****g chance. Boris’s kicking for Ruthie and Mundell might make me vote for them!

      SNP all the way. We’re winning.

    25. Liz g says:

      LBC back on to indy!!!

    26. CameronB Brodie says:

      Given the British Labour party was formed partly in response to the economic inequities and health disparities of industrial revolution society, it is rather depressing to watch Labour MPs behaving like Tory dicks. Especially in light of the full-English Brexit. Such is the malignancy of the British nationalist social pathology.

      Autonomy, Paternalism, and Justice: Ethical Priorities in Public Health


      With attention to the field of public health ethics growing, significant time has been devoted to identifying a sound ethical justification for paternalistic interventions that override individual autonomy to prevent people from adopting unhealthy behaviors.

      Efforts focused on specifying the conditions that warrant paternalism, however, are largely misplaced. On empirical and ethical grounds, public health should seek instead to expand individual autonomy to improve population health. To promote autonomy, the field should redirect current efforts toward clarifying principles of justice.

      Although public health’s most highly visible stance is associated with an egalitarian conception of “social justice,” it is imperative that public health professionals address gaping divisions in public understandings of justice. I present recommendations for initiating this process.

    27. red sunset says:

      Ref tartanpigsty @ 1.37, problem with the link.
      It should be :

      That’s a number one fundraiser, that is 🙂

    28. katherine hamilton says:

      Harris being given free reign on LBC. Us Nationalists are evil. Our priority is independence. The SNP only run Scotland well to make a point, apparently. See who’se on next.
      2014 was hellish. A horrible horrible place to be.
      Diddums. Puir wee soul.

      Wasn’t my Scotland.

    29. Petra says:

      Ian Murray was interviewed by the BBC at lunchtime and managed to ‘circumvent’ answering why it was alright to hold another EU referendum but not a Scottish referendum. Just like the Lib-dems, such as Swinson, he came out with the same old duplicitous, undemocratic waffle and for some reason seems to think that the viewers can’t see right through him. They’re absolutely raging because they can no longer spout ..”the SNP don’t have a mandate to hold Indyref2 because a majority of Scots don’t want Independence.” Stuck now with the risible, ”they said that is was a once in a generation referendum.” Pathetic. And who exactly is ”they”?

      The BBC interviewer said that this debate, within the Labour Party, would go on for quite some time. Let’s hope that it does because every time any of these Unionists, with their nasty, twisted faces, speak (spit) out against Independence on the television they make our case for us. Which just reminds me of how civilised SNP politicians are when being interviewed, such as Sturgeon, Swinney, Freeman etc, and when comparing them to the Unionists there’s something to be said about that.

    30. James Barr Gardner says:

      Dr Jim says:
      7 August, 2019 at 1:07 pm
      Unionists are like Seagulls, if you stare them down they back away, but if you don’t keep an eye on them they’ll steal your chips.

      BELTER !!!!!

    31. carjamtic says:

      ‘It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.Slavery has so frightful an aspect to men accustomed to freedom, that it must steal in upon them by degrees and must disguise itself in a thousand shapes, in order to be received’

      Handmaidens,footmen,jesters, these poor buggers must have been offered untold riches to turn/twist/shape change, in order to deceive (just like their predecessors who also had an unquenchable thirst for making quick money, no questions asked) and like them they have failed and now the vagabonds who are rapping at their door, are standing in the clothes that they once wore.


    32. Artyhetty says:

      Is there a snippet somewhere of McDonnell saying ‘the English parliament’? Would like to see that.

      It looks like even though ‘Scotland’ is totally not interested nor has any desire for an indy ref, the Britnats can think about nothing else right now! It’s all they are talking about.

      Forget Brexit, which they don’t give a toss about because their no deal is their ultimate aim.

      It’s losing Scotland, and no longer being able to steal Scotland’s massively lucrative resources, huge huge revenues, go through with their plan to sell our SNHS, and plans to sell our agriculture, fishing, land all on the cheap to dodgy regimes, that’s got them extremely hot under the collar!

      Scotland’s renewables alone are worth them fighting for as well as our water, and they will if needed, fight us for them. Scottish rewewables powered enough energy in first six months of 2019, to power two Scotland’s!!

    33. katherine hamilton says:

      English guy from Inverness, now. An aggressive undertone in 2014. Like Northern Ireland. Some intimidation like there. Aggressive marches at the time.
      Hi Rev, any chance you could give her (Ms Fogerty) a phone.

      Inverness guy now saying we’re unaware what we’re doing.

      Sheesh, enough, already.

    34. SilverDarling says:

      UK Lab Stella Creasy seems to believe her ideology trumps any other -‘egalitarian devolution’. Is that like a ‘benign dictatorship’. Don’t you just love being UKsplained by our Imperial Masters? Are they getting the band back together again ‘Better Than Ever Together’ the follow up album? All the old hits reworked for the remaining few.

      Thanks to everyone for reviving Empire Biscuit’s Imperial March in Glasgow recently .

      It brings it all back. The onslaught of Unionism across the media was truly terrible then and it looked as if it was slipping away. I remember sadness and joy and laughing so much at that.

      The amazing thing is it hasn’t aged and the main players in that cast of idiots have learned nothing and become more extreme in their views. It is as fresh and relevant as a window into the mindset of SLab then and now. You can see them believing their Imperial Masters would bale them out again.

      It worked then but the arguments and resolve now are so strong for Independence that BT seem as weak and cowardly as they ever were.

      Just waiting for JK Rowling to declare her hand…

    35. katherine hamilton says:

      Guy on from Aberdeen now. Leathering it well.

    36. Petra says:

      @ Capella says at 2:00 pm – ”Petra – have you seen the characters at Westminster? There are some decent intelligent politicians there but the ones with the loudest mouths are quite warped, the ERG for example and the Labour Blairites.”

      Most, if not all, of them seem to be English Capella and I doubt that they’ll end up in Holyrood. I was thinking more of the Scottish crew in Westminster and the current Unionist losers in Holyrood, other than individuals like Andy Wightman. In saying that I’d be genuinely interested to hear if anyone on here can point out any Tory, Labour or Lib-Dem politician at Holyrood that’s actually worth their salt.

    37. Jedburgh says:

      It’s the numbers game in Westminster Mcdonnell has looked at SNP against Scottish Labours pathetic handful.

      Murray should look at Labours performance in the Euro Elections in Edinburgh(6th) – he will be scrapping for votes with Lord Bucketheid and the Monster Raving Loonies the official ones not the Brexit Party.

    38. laukat says:

      If UK Labour has its brain in gear they would firm up John McDonnell’s comments and then very quickly either strike a pro-eu pact with the Lib Dems and greens in England and Wales or come out as pro-EU and try to take back the voters they’ve lost to the Libdems in England and Wales.

      They must realise that they have lost Scotland for good so the above tactic is best to get them in power in England and retain power in Wales.

      Labours showing in the recent Welsh parliamentary by election coupled with polling for the Welsh Parliament must make them fear that they will lose Wales as they have done Scotland unless they change pretty quickly.

    39. katherine hamilton says:

      Never heard so much about Indy on Britnat radio. Radio 2 at noon. LBC twice today.
      Gosh, do they think we’re serious?

      You betcha. Watch you’re lights go out.

    40. Terry callachan says:

      Radio LBC currently having a phone in about ,
      Does Scotland want another independence referendum


      Was there violence on both sides during the 2014 independence referendum

    41. Petra says:

      WGD:- ‘The arses who run what was the union.’

      ..”Kevin Schofield, the editor of Politics Home, reported on Twitter that a source within Labour in Scotland hadn’t taken long to inform him of the branch office’s reaction to John McDonnell’s remarks. It wasn’t flattering. The source said, “He’s a fucking imbecile and has just given our opponents all the ammunition they need. We will now be perceived as pro Brexit and anti union. Well done the arses that run what was the Labour Party.”…

      …”Well done the arses that run what was the union.”

    42. CameronB Brodie says:

      One for those who make claims to valuing legal reason and moral probity. Two values that are alien to the practice of British constitutional law, apparently.


      If this union of primary and secondary rules represented
      the entirety of Hart’s legal philosophy, those who claim that
      Hart’s legal positivism has nothing of interest to say about
      the relationship between law and morality would be correct.
      They would also be correct in claiming that such an analysis
      is grossly deficient. However, Hart does have more to say
      about this subject. Much of what he says is perceptive and

      Hart is a legal positivist, but he is a critical moral philosopher as well. Legal positivism generally means that it is in no sense a necessary truth that laws reproduce or satisfy certain demands of morality, though in fact they have often done so.25 It is worth noting that Hart does not subscribe to all the theses commonly attributed to legal positivism. He does not assert that laws are simply a product of sovereign command, or that moral judgments cannot be established as statements of facts can, by rational argument, evidence or proof.26

      He does not maintain that a legal system is a closed logical system in which correct decisions can be deduced from predetermined legal rules by logical means alone. It should be noted that Hart does take morality seriously. Hart stated that law and morality are very close, though not necessarily related. He is deeply sympathetic to what he calls “the core of good sense of natural law” and believes that law should continually be subject to moral scrutiny….

    43. Tam the Bam. says:

      RBS Big Chief saying RBS will move south in the evnt of an Indy Scotland.

      Now where did I hear that before?

    44. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s another wake-up call to those who value the rule-of-law, a bit of legal context to better judge authoritarian English nationalism (see the full-English Brexit).

      Law, Morals, and Ethics

    45. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Looks like I was wrong in a previous posting. That 52% poll has got the usual BritNat suspects in a real lather. Even if there is no “Vow2” on the horizon (yet).

      As for those (whether mendacious politicians or ignoramuses in phone-ins) who continue to claim “there is no support”, all they are succeeding in doing is demonstrating to the public-at-large that they are out-of-touch jerks. And the more that public opinion shifts, the more these losers condemn themselves, and the less they convince anyone else.

    46. Terry callachan says:

      Yesterday and today I’m hearing radio presenters saying they now understand why people in Scotland want independence apparently it’s because of brexit and the VOW.

      Me ? I think this is just another part of England’s propaganda game ,

      They’ve tried promises , stay in the EU ,extra devolved powers etc if you reject Scottish independence

      They’ve tried telling us we are too stupid too poor too small to be independent

      They’ve tried telling us it’s up to England to decide if Scotland can have a Scottish independence referendum

      They’ve tried telling us businesses will leave Scotland and we won’t have a mobile phone service or an NHS or a currency and nobody will trade with us

      Recently they have shown signs of panic and as a result of that we are now seeing them being nice again , being understanding and telling us how much they like visiting Scotland but I reckon that behaviour will soon be followed by worse threats and insults than anything ever seen before

    47. Liz g says:

      Oh my, Edinburgh wummin on LBC going to move to England when we become independent…. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to her that England,well Westminster really,might not allow her to…

    48. Capella says:

      @ Petra – the only member of the Scottish Parliament from the unionist parties I would consider a decent MSP is Claudia Beamish. She sounds intelligent and reaonable any time I’ve heard her.

      There may be one or two others such as Sarah Boyack and Liam McArthur, but you’re right, most seem utter self serving, two faced half wits.

    49. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tam the Bam @ 14:51,

      I can hear the cheering already. Many folk would even help them pack their bags. They would do us a big favour if they went. Sooner the better we have a clean banking system in a new Scotland.

    50. CameronB Brodie says:

      And a bit more legal reason for those who might be persuaded to vote for Scotland’s self-government.

      The Province of Jurisprudence Democratized
      The Morality of Jurisprudence Determined

      This chapter explores the link between law and morality. It considers the positivist and moralist accounts of jurisprudence, and contends that the best arguments put forward to defend the validity, relevance, and justification for a positivist account of jurisprudence are unconvincing. Apart from the assertion that it is possible for there to be a bad legal system (to which almost all jurists, moralist and positivist, can accede), legal positivism has little to offer.

      However, the moralist case is also of limited constructive worth when viewed from a democratic perspective; while it insists that there is an inescapable moral dimension to determining law’s validity, it seeks to avoid and contain the subversive implications of that powerful insight. The chapter looks at three different responses—soft/inclusive, hard/exclusive, and ethical positivism—and assesses their merits from a democratically leaning political alternative account of jurisprudence.

      positivism, moralism, analytical jurisprudence, legal theory, separation thesis

    51. SilverDarling says:

      Is there any other country on earth who has had to justify its existence the way Scotland has had to?

      Listening to James O’Brien this morning I felt sad for him and the good folk of England in a way. In Scotland we have come such a long way over the last few years.

      English identity is such a toxic label in the world that to be British where the worst excesses of Little England could to some extent be diluted by including the best of Scotland and Wales and N.Ireland is preferable for those who cannot face up to what is happening in England. I think they don’t know what it being English is and unfortunately the worst of Imperialism and Class and Racial discrimination have become to the outside world what England is.

      England needs to regain its confidence in itself and an independent England would allow it to look at itself the way we in Scotland have had to scrutinise and be scrutinised.

      It is healthy for us to be independent neighbours and the good folk of England, Wales and NI are seeing that now.

    52. Republicofscotland says:

      Thought I heard Mr Harris on Shelagh Fogarty’s show earlier, bleating on about who in their right minds would want to leave this wonderful union.

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      And one for Scottish lawyers who see no harm is supporting authoritarian English nationalism (see the full-English Brexit).

      Four Reflections on Law and Morality

    54. Liz g says:

      Republicofscotland @ 3.07
      Aye ye did… He seemed to be feeling pretty dammed unappreciated too.. 🙂

    55. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Republicofscotland @ 15:07,

      Enoch Powell famously said that every politician’s career ends in failure, which is perhaps often – if not inevitably – true, but Tom Harris seems preternaturally determined to prove Powell right.

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      One for those who want to understand why British nationalists tend to be morally bankrupt. Full text.

      Autonomy and morality:
      A Self-Determination Theory discussion of ethics


      Kantian ethics is based on a metaphysical conception of autonomy that may seem difficult to reconcile with the empirically-based science of psychology. I argue that, although not formally developed, a Self-Determination Theory
      (SDT) perspective of ethics can broaden the field of Kantian-based moral psychology and specify what it means, motivationally, to have autonomy in the application of a moral norm.

      More specifically, I argue that this is possible when a moral norm is fully endorsed by the self through a process of internalization that is energized by intrinsic motivation and is facilitated by the fulfillment of the basic needs for autonomy, competence and relatedness. The conditions of the fulfillment of these needs may even implicitly reveal which norms will be integrated and treated as moral norms. I conclude that SDT offers a motivational approach that is useful in understanding the development of moral norms.

      ethics; morality; motivation; autonomy; self-determination theory; Kant

    57. I listened to Garry Robertson interviewing Labour’s Ian Murray this morning on Radio Scotland.

      The reception on my phone wasn’t great, but I’m certain
      I heard Ian Murray describe the 2014 indy referendum as being “once in a lifetime”, which Garry Robertson didn’t pick Murray up on.

    58. Artyhetty says:

      katherine hamilton@2.37

      Hmm, do you think the Britnats are planning some big power cuts for Scotland? There were a few major ones in 2014, prior to the indy ref. half of Scotland was without power at one point, quite a coincidence for sure.

    59. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Liz g @3.02pm

      Hope that wummin on LBC is saving up to pay for her prescriptions, privatised water, privatised buses, and if has kids at Uni, hopefully she has savings for their tuition fees so as they don’t end up with £50k+ DEBT when they finish their degree.

      England must look very attractive to her, wonder where she gets her specs from. Don’t let us stop you pet, bye bye, enjoy ‘England’s glorious not so green but quite unpleasant land’.

      Ps. I am English (was) and not anti, and I wish them all the best, but I couldn’t live there now, no way.

    60. Ottomanboi says:

      The demise of the United Kingdom may well prove to be a protracted affair.
      The forces designed to keep the entity on life support are gathering. RBS execs threatening mayhem, Labour politicians, or one at least, going for the schmooze.
      If there were not so many chinks and cracks in the seemingly stalling independence machine such nonsense from the sidelines would not matter.
      It may be dolldrums August but the down time should be used for overhauling and recalibrating the machine.

    61. Marie Clark says:

      What that smell today, oh, i get it. PANIC.

      Well, well, Lord Ashcroft’s poll certainly has the headless chickens running aboot.

      RBS can GTF, anytime that it likes. Cheerio, and anyone else who wants to move to what will be left of England can go if they wish. We won’t detain you. It’ll be their choice, and we’re like that, we like people to have their own choice.

      What is it wi a’ these Britnats,especially the ones from the ither side o’ the border, chunterin on and on about what we Scots can and cannot do. What the hell has it got to do with them. It’s our business, us, the peolpe of Scotland. We can and will decide for ourselves what we want. Not anyone else.

      I think mibbies they are coming to realise, that after nearly five years since indyref1, and all the relentless spin and propaganda that we are being subjected too, we’re still standing. We haven’t gone away, and you know what, brexit means that there’s even more of us now. Shame that, intit.

    62. Welsh Sion says:

      Dr Jim says:
      7 August, 2019 at 1:07 pm

      Unionists are like Seagulls, if you stare them down they back away, but if you don’t keep an eye on them they’ll steal your chips …

      James Barr Gardner says:
      7 August, 2019 at 2:21 pm

      BELTER !!!!!


      … and crap on you.

    63. Clapper57 says:

      Yesterday’s woman aka.. pseudo successful politician created predominantly via the figment of metropolitan hacks collective imaginations… reaches out to voters who do not vote for her party in the hope that they are too dumb to see the p*sh that is clearly transparent in her tweet.

      Tories in Scotland once again are orchestrating a campaign targeting the mentally challenged….that is ..dumb as f*ck peeps, Union cult followers, peeps who confuse religion with politics and who all spend most of their lives basing their voting decisions on the opposite of anything that promotes or benefits Scotland and it’s people.

      Ruth is back onto her favourite subject… Independence Referendums…favourite as in it is all she wants to talk about especially now in the midst of a possible No Deal Brexit, the fact that she has no policies other than adopting Tartan variations of UKOK Tory government policies and also after her very public rebuttal from Bojo and Tory party members darn sarf….deflect deflect deflect.

      Ruth states ” She feels for those Labour voters”…truth is Ruth feels nothing for anyone other than Ruth herself, the Tory party, Keeping WM ruling Scotland and like most of those peeps who vote for her party…making and basing decisions on the opposite of anything that promotes and benefits Scotland and it’s people.

      Ruth is , like many Unionist politicians an irritant..but now a very much MINOR irritant as she is diminished in her imagined power , exaggerated influence and questionable credibility. She is not and never has been a force to be reckoned with instead has always been merely an obvious and crude pro UKOK product manufactured to offset the clear rise in self determination wanted by many more Scots post 2014…this is irrespective of Brexit for many of us…but now for other former No Scots it has become an urgent and obvious reached conclusion very much because of the damaging consequences of Brexit…No deal or otherwise.

      Let her continue along her predictable path of carping from the sidelines…because that is her future in Scotland…if she makes peace with Bojo she will perhaps have a future in her beloved UKOK in a English constituency in a safe Tory seat or park her a*se in the HOL besides all of the self serving proud Scots buts…the buts being….British Unionists Terrible Scots.

    64. starlaw says:

      Peter McCulloch 3.28
      You heard correctly, Murray did bring up the once in a lifetime fable. Murray also stated that what Labour needs is new radical policies, to win back support in Scotland. Mr Murray never as much as hinted what these new radical reforms were and Richard Leonard has clearly never heard of them. Perhaps Mr Leonard goes to the wrong lodge.

    65. robbo says:

      Artyhetty says:
      7 August, 2019 at 3:45 pm
      Re;Liz g @3.02pm

      Naw she wis a full on britnat along with what she said was colleagues and friends( they were all no last indy and still no) including her hubby.Obviously part of the local tory party where she lived. What got me was the too wee, too poor crap she came out with AND we couldn’t use the pound. I’d happily help pay her removal from Scotland on indy where can start paying for social care,prescriptions,buses etc in her beloved England- A tory freeloader was what she was.

    66. Tartanpigsy says:

      Apologies for earlier and the closed managrment link
      This should work
      Make Unionist seethe!
      Donate today

    67. Effijy says:

      Murray suggests that Labour are an Internationalist Party?
      How is that they have agreed that they should leave the
      27 other countries in the EU?

      How is it Labour apologises for and applauds the Irish
      For their fight in freeing themselves from Westminster.

      How can these cretins claim to be democratic and say that a
      Country can’t change its decision when it’s circumstances have
      Been completely changed for them?

      No promise was made by anyone about a once in a generation referendum.

      What is it Ruth the Mooth doesn’t understand about Scotland never giving the Tories
      A majority vote in any form of election over the last 3 generations?

      Isn’t she working on the basis that lies and stupidity might just get Scots to change their minds
      and give her fascist party some kind of majority.

      I’ve also got to say an unelected Bojo as PM isn’t democracy for me.
      Having Fluffy Mundell as Scottish Minister when he is One Tory elected out of 59 possible seats isn’t democracy either.

    68. Tam the Bam. says:

      Slab gettin’ pelters now on Radio Scotland!!…yeeha!

    69. galamcennalath says:

      One poll has had a big impact. Just way till several polls show a consistent picture, which I’m sure they will.

      I don’t think it’s come out of the blue. Britnatterdom has been expecting it because it sounds like private polling has already shown a Yes lead.

      When there are several polls, the world will have changed completely. No longer can BritNat parties, the MSM, broadcasters, or Loony Tunes like Scotland in Union claim to represent or speak for the majority. They become the minority. And the more it shrinks the better.

      Independence is being normalised. Self determination is what most folks want. Support for the UK Union becomes the preserve of only those with vested interests, which isn’t a good look!

      Opposing the democratic process is unacceptable. Those who believe their special interest allows them to interfere are acting like fascist thugs. Democracy WILL take its course!

    70. Lbc is a. Farce if you phone in you have to speak first to person who asks what you want,to say and if you are puting a hole in their agenda you do not get on I have been barred not officially of course but they never let me on after years of demolishing their stories Fogarty Obrien etc., they want to appear so reasonable,but not reasonable enough to accept a democratic vote they only want their kind of democracy no one else’s sad sad people

    71. Tam the Bam. says:

      Tricky Dicky Leonard there on Radio Scotland….” The people of Scotland don’t want another Independence Referendum”….lol
      “Poll?…WHAT POLL?……lol

    72. crazycat says:

      @ Capella at 3.04

      I’ve encountered both Claudia Beamish and Sarah Boyack during environmental campaigns (20+ years ago), and superficially they do both seem ok. But there’s a brick wall in there representing the union, and publicly at least they are confined by it.

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 16:13,

      Yeah. What particularly sticks in the craw though is that these hustlers assert all their self-invented restrictions in the name of democracy.

      These supposed democrats are happy to let us vote for something they really want, but otherwise, not so much.

    74. twathater says:

      Mc Donnell is quoted as saying ” AS THE SITUATION STANDS AT THE MOMENT WE WOULD NOT BLOCK IT ” as the native Americans have supposedly said ” white man speaks with forked tongue ” as savvy WOSSERS we all know it’s not what is said it is what is NOT said that matters

      Irrespective if these deluded imperialists ( english parliament , tongue slip ) can or can’t block it I personally am against ANY cooperation with LIEBOUR , their denigration and demonisation of Scots and Scotland has left me vehemently opposed to their existence in Scotland.

      Their CATASTROPHIC governance of Scotland has caused untold hardship and injury to our most vulnerable , they will NEVER be forgiven in my eyes

    75. Republicofscotland says:

      Sounds like the unionists are gearing up for an all out propaganda war on Scottish independence, we are the Venezuela of the UK, sanctions to follow soon.

    76. galamcennalath says:

      Scotland going to the polls for the first time to decide on its constitution future is of course a once in a lifetime experience.

      The second time (or heaven forbid, third or whatever) is never going go be quite the same. 😉

    77. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      He also said that ‘its not yet known whether the Scottish people might choose independence, but they should not be obstructed just because of the treaty of union’ & he is a totem for our opponents.

    78. Golfnut says:

      @ Proud Cybernat.

      ‘as the situation is at the moment, we will not block it’

      Methinks a wee get out clause there.

    79. Liz g says:

      Remember in early 2014 it was really really spooky how the media across the rest of the UK seemed to be pretty unaware and unconcerned about Indyref 1?
      Despite the campaign running for over a year?
      We wondered if they were ever going to wake England up to the fact that it was happening!
      N.Ireland was aware of It and presumably were watching and I don’t really know about Wales!
      It looked like England was going to be left to wake up on the 20th Sep 2014 to find out Scotland was off! In which was, and still is, a bigger change to England,Wales & N.Ireland than Brexit ever could or will be.
      What a difference this time,we’ve no even announced our date yet.
      Well done us Yes’ers 🙂 we kept Indy alive to thrive.

      It will be interesting to see if after the Yes vote Scotland makes the News EVERY single day till actual Independence day like Brexit has?
      Will Nicola and her team get the air time that the elected by no one Farage and his ilk has during the Westminster negotiations?
      Or will the MSM ( as I suspect ) attempt to air brush Scotland immediately from their reporting?
      Will the first thing to go not be the RBS but the MSM…
      I suspect we will need the Indy media more than ever to keep us informed about what’s going on…..
      Are you listening Rev Campbell?

    80. Tam the Bam. says:

      Blair Paterson @ 4-15pm

      I managed to get airtime on Darren Adam @ LBC about a year ago but only because I told a wee fib where I pretended to concur with the proposition Darren Adam was extoling . Once on air ..I put on my real troosers and told him in no uncertain terms that I strongly objected to his use of ‘separatists and nats’as a pejorative for people in support of an Independent Scotland!

      Needless to say I was immediately shown the door…lol

    81. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – interesting point. I can only go by what I’ve heard them say in committee. Sarah Boyack has a good record in Environment policy and land reform. I believe she was involved in setting up the Cairngorms National Park and also introduced free bus travel for over 60s.
      Claudia Beamish is also involved in environment policy as you say. She challenges government policy on deer numbers and raptor persecution AFAIK.
      When compared to the vacuousness of most of their unionist colleagues they are remarkably well informed and capable.
      But they are unionists, otherwise they could defect to the SNP and do some very useful work.

    82. Dr Jim says:

      Fish supper please, Sorry no fish suppers the people of Scotland have no appetite for them only Faggot suppers today,

      I don’t like Faggots I like fish, Nope! can’t have it told you no appetite in Scotland for them

      But nobody in Scotland buys Faggots, Yes they do always have and always will because Scottish people are just the same as English people and they like them, shut your mouth

      I’m going to another chippy then, No you’re not lock the doors you’re not leaving this chippy until you’ve become a Faggot eater and that’s the end of it, But?… Nope! shut up

    83. Tam the Bam. says:

      Dr Jim ‘4-34pm

      lol………I’ll settle for a bag o’ chips then.

    84. Golfnut says:

      @ Jock McDonnell.

      ‘ obstructed just because of the Treaty of Union’

      Interesting, that I think is the first time they have ever referred to the Treaty of Union. Does he understand what a treaty is I wonder, is he aware of his own country’s Attorney Generals take on treaties.

    85. Big Jock says:

      Murray doesn’t even understand basic geography. He says he is an internationalist. However in order for that term to exist, there first needs to be things called nations.

      If he argues that his internationalism is British, and not Scottish. Then he is in fact a British nationalist.

      With this argument he is claiming one larger nation is legitimate , while a smaller one is not. I am pretty sure his passport doesn’t say “International Citizen” on it. every nation is legitimate if the majority of the population agree it is a nation. That’s called democracy.

      Murray is not a democrat either. Because he is personally against something, he claims it to be illegitimate. So in other words it’s only his opinion that matters.

      He wants to stop the Scottish nation from making it’s own decisions. Yet he represents a seat in that nation. He is there to represent the people not himself or the Labour party. Nicola Sturgeon has always been very careful to represent all of the people of Scotland. Even if some of them are at polar opposites.

      Murray is very much a fascist. He talks the language of internationalism but his belief system is utterly undemocratic.

      The Scottish nation have voted SNP since 2007, to now. They last voted Tory in 1959. He is on the same side of the political spectrum as the right wing dictators. McDonnell is old School Labour. Murray is Tory light labour.

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      Show me the statute in British constitutional law, that specifies the length of intervals between advisory plebiscites. Better still, show me the statutory legal instrument that establishes England’s supremacy in constitutional legal matters. The Treaty of Union is an issue of international law. Subsequently, the Prime Minister does not have the legal authority to determine what it means. To do so is an assault on the international rule-of-law. But then, BoJo is an illiberal charlatan.

    87. twathater says:

      Watched Monday nights 7pm BROADCAST SCOTLAND with indy car Gordon Ross , one of his guests was Angus B McNeil MP talking about his proposal for a GE independence manifesto as a plan B , he was also concerned that SOME in the SNP hierarchy were being too cautious and needed to be more challenging and forthright when it came to indy
      Gordon also said that he hopes to have Chris Mc Eleny SNP councillor on the Broadcast Scotland show on Thursday to discuss same

    88. Ottomanboi says:

      Out of the Scottish-English alliance came the British Empire. Unless you have just descended from fairyland by no standard was that particular enterprise ‘a good thing’.
      Leaving Scotland’s ‘humiliation’ at the hands of the assertively anglocentric régime out of the equation, is the internationalist Ian Murray at ease with the founding principle of the Union and its all-devouring imperialist drivers eg the systematic stripping of India of its wealth, the pushing and dealing of opium in China, the carving up of Africa and the mischief making in the MiddleEast which all helped to lay the foundations of the great wealth of the imperial capital and of the British state currently heading for the reefs?

    89. Jock McDonnell says:

      @ Golfnut

      Well.. he’s 20 years dead .. but its safe to say he did understand the power & importance of words.

    90. Bobp says:

      O/t just watching tipping point. Multi choice Question asked martin kaymer is a golfer from which EUROPEAN COUNTRY. Scotland Germany or Wales. Wow ITV recognising us as a european country. Do they know something we dont.

    91. Robert Peffers says:

      @Golfnut says: 7 August, 2019 at 4:25 pm:

      ” … ‘as the situation is at the moment, we will not block it’
      Methinks a wee get out clause there.”

      Aye! Golfnut, no matter what they say or promise us, we must never drop our guard when the opponents are members of the Westminster Establishment. There are always, no matter which party, some cunning stunts among them.

      We must always expect the unexpected for these people have no principles.

      Remember Mr Gummer, MP, the then agriculture minister, who, during the first BSE outbreak, encouraged his own daughter Cordelia to eat a burger in front of television cameras in an attempt to show infected beef was safe to eat. Later it was proven, what everyone had suspected, BSE, (Mad cow disease), was caught by eating infected beef.

    92. Tam the Bam. says:

      Wee Doogie Alexander (ah want ma seat back!) will be on Radio Scotland in 5 mins…re Slab/Indy.

    93. Petra says:

      @ Capella says at 4:32 pm …. ”Sarah Boyack has a good record in Environment policy and land reform…. Claudia Beamish is also involved in environment policy as you say. She challenges government policy on deer numbers and raptor persecution AFAIK……

      Alright that two plus Andy Wightman, leaving 55 posts to be filled by someone with half a brain. Maybe when our 35 MP’s return from London, joined by the 15 that lost their Westminster posts, they could spread out across the debating chamber leaving space for 5 more. I know that a lot of people aren’t too keen on him, but I’d love to see Tommy Sheridan shooting his mouth off in Holyrood once again. If so, 4 places left, lol. Any takers? I nominate Auld Bob for one. He’d sort them all out, tout de suite.

    94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jock McDonnell @ 16:25,

      Enoch Powell, I presume…?

      A complex character and unreconstructed British Nationalist, but he did have some principles. I imagine he would have been utterly contemptuous of the present shower of pseudo-democratic PSB flip-flops.

    95. Bobp says:

      Tam the bam 2.51pm. Anyone in Scotland with an Rbs bank account should close it. Send these a***holes a message that they wont make fools out of us twice.

    96. Lenny Hartley says:

      Nicola on Manx Radio News, westminster have every right tobargue against Independence but theupy dont have the right to block a referendum. I would argue its got feck all to do with Westminster. The UN on the rights of peoples says that an identifiable people have the right to choose their political future without outside interference.

    97. Gorbar says:

      Richard Leonard on BBC R2 5pm news stating no demand for another referendum and if I caught it right opposition to ‘rerunning a second referendum’.
      Ahead of the game there – surely we should have the second referendum first.

    98. Muscleguy says:

      I expect the Yoons are doubling down due to Ashcroft’s poll which shows them the game is pretty much up which gives them the willies and makes them hyper scared. So their only comfort blanket is to deny all of what Ashcroft’s polls show them.

      Hi Rev, are you preparing a poll for Wings soon? If so can you please ask your pollsters to include 16 and 17 year olds and EU citizens unlike Ashcroft so we can take a proper temperature of what Yes actually is?

    99. Cubby says:


      Now you may think they made a fool of you but how exactly did they make a fool of “us”?

    100. Clootie says:

      I still don’t know Labours position on this. Do I listen to Labour major or Labour minor.

      It is like the old TV comedy “Soap” – “What happens next?”

    101. Tam the Bam. says:

      Bobp @ 5-08pm

      The RBS GRG (Global Restructuring Group) forced my former employer into administration and ultimate liquidation in 2009.
      The GRG have since been rightfully condemned as nothing more than an asset-stripping branch of RBS.
      So when I hear big Ross (he’s off soon anyway…with a massive golden handshake) threatening to move his bunch of shysters down south…let me help him pack.

    102. Cubby says:

      Lenny Hartley@5.10pm

      Spot on.

      “Without outside interference” yes that means diddies like HYFUD and Lucey.

    103. Helena Brown says:

      I wonder how those of the yoon persuasion will feel after Brexit when they become just another load of annoying Scots.

    104. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sarah Boyack was a lecturer of mine. I wouldn’t trust her as far as I could through her. She either lied to my face in the run-up to the 2014 indy ref, and denied any knowledge of the concept of “competitive destruction”, or she exhibits a worryingly patchy understanding of reality.

    105. Colin Alexander says:

      Ruth Davidson? Who is she? Was she someone who was once important?


      “The EU referendum is a once in a generation decision. The Government believes it is in you and your family’s best interests that the UK remains in the European Union”.

      I wonder how many Remainer UK politicians who said the EU ref was once in a generation now support another EU-Ref?

      Why is the UK Tory Govt allowed to change it’s mind from being pro-EU to anti-EU but, Scotland is to be bound by the “once in a generation” rhetoric of Alex Salmond and the then 2014 Scot Govt?

      Of course, politicians can genuinely change their minds about a topic. As can the voters. That’s democracy.

      Then there’s the Ruth Davidson, Richard Leonard and David Mundell type of opinions. Comments said, not because they hold those opinions but, because it’s politically expedient at the time to say they do. Completely false, completely fake. Completely insincere. Charlatans. Mouthpieces of Unionist headquarters in London.

    106. Bobp says:

      Cubby 5.24pm Rbs threatened this in 2014. Scotland voted no. Now repeat after me.

    107. Cubby says:


      Only a fool would believe that. Sorry don’t repeat nonsense that fools post.

      Only a fool would post a believe as a fact without any evidence that it had a significant impact on the result.

      Your post may be brief in content but it is large in nonsense. Now anyone, but a fool, would stop digging when in a hole but I am pretty sure the spade will see more action from Bobp the self confessed fool.

    108. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@5.33pm

      “Completely insincere. Charlatans. Mouthpieces of Unionist headquarters.”

      Looking in the mirror at the time Mr Alexander?

    109. Bobp says:

      Cubby 5.50. Look i posted a valid comment that i believe was one of the reasons that frightened/fooled Scotland into voting no in 2014. Immediately you jump on me accusing me of being a fool/liar etc. Do me a favour fcuk off you gobshite.

    110. CameronB Brodie says:

      Time for a bit more legal philosophy? Perhaps this might prove persuasive in encouraging the more reationary ellements of Scotland’s legal profession, to reject British nationalism in favour of supporting ethical rationalism and the principle of universal human rights?

      The Right to Justification: Elements of a Constructivist Theory of Justice

      The Right to Justification is a collection of essays by Rainer Forst, spanning questions ranging from the foundation of morality to ones of global justice, human rights, toleration, freedom and democracy. Although each essay stands on its own and could be read separately, the book is best read as a monograph since the first part on foundations lays out the ground for, and offers a philosophical and conceptual apparatus to, approaching issues of political and social justice (part 2) and of human rights and transnational justice (part 3).

      To read the book as a whole also has the advantage of providing insight into Forst’s unique ability to connect complex philosophical arguments to everyday social and political practices in the spirit of critical theory, and into his systematic attempt to develop and defend a monist position.

      The leading idea of Forst’s work is the principle of justification, from which the right to (and duty of) justification corresponds. Forst starts out with the presumption that human beings are foremost justificatory beings, who are not only endowed with a unique capacity for language and communication, but also have the ability to take responsibility for their actions and beliefs by giving reasons to others and expecting that others will do the same.

      In chapters 1 and 2, Forst unpacks the basic elements of the principle of justification. The ability to justify with practical reason, Forst argues, is the basic capacity to respond to practical questions in an appropriate way. To seek for morally grounded answers to the question “What should I do?”, we must be able to provide reasons that can justify our actions according to criteria that are valid within a normative context….

    111. Anyone hear Ian Murray on R4 this morning.

      When asked why he thought it was OK to have a 2nd EU ref but not a 2nd Indy ref he replied that it was a principled stance and perfectly logical.

      He also twice managed to get in a reference to the fact the the SNP sold out the labour government in 1979? causing us all to have to suffer umpteen years of Tory Gov which is why we are in this mess now.

      Oh, and nobody in Scotland wants independence…

    112. Balaaargh says:

      RBS moving the brass plaque won’t happen if an indy Scotland joins the EU. Access to those markets without changing anything is a bigger carrot than London’s stick.

    113. Tam the Bam. says:

      Balaaargh @ 6-08pm

      I concur.

    114. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tam the Bam @ 17:02,

      I didn’t listen in, but that aching NorthBritLab exceptionalism is quite a heavy chip to carry on the shoulder of ultra-smoothie-chops Dougie. I weep for him. (In some parallel universe.)

      I doubt though if either of “The Alexander Brothers” (Dougie and Danny) can be persuaded to leave their southern troughs to risk another encounter with a now-wiser Scottish electorate. In the case of the Labour ex-star-climber, though, political career in the bin but still unable to resist the odd bitter remonstrance from a safe distance.

      Their loss (from us), our gain.

    115. Artyhetty says:

      Tam the Bam. says:
      7 August, 2019 at 5:02 pm

      ‘Wee Doogie Alexander (ah want ma seat back!) will be on Radio Scotland in 5 mins…re Slab/Indy.’

      They really are all panicking aren’t they. Oh oh. Coming oot the woodwork now, Doogie A. thinking he has authority on anything regarding Scotland, deluded in the extreme.

      Somehow think the BBC and other Britnat mediah are going to control the narrative, again. Still, Scotland by and large sees right through their lies now. The Britnats have nothing to offer Scotland, most people know that they are stealing from Scotland every day of the year, to the tune of £billions if not in fact £trillions re the oil etc.

      Britnats should start thinking on how they might negotiate with Scotland to make it easier for themselves, maybe even be given a few of Scotland’s trinkets, if they ask nicely. 🙂

    116. galamcennalath says:

      Balaaargh says:

      RBS moving the brass plaque won’t happen if an indy Scotland joins the EU. Access to those markets without changing anything is a bigger carrot than London’s stick.

      Good point. WGD opined a few weeks ago that iScotland could begin on Day 1 in the EU single market and customs union. If he is correct (and why not) that is a big incentive for businesses to stay. In fact, post Brexit it’s a massive bonus for most – getting back into the EU business/trading club without doing anything!

      Then, as iScotland proves to be stable, it’s an incentive to move here and invest here.

      Start as Norway Plus, then we can sort out EU membership is a majority want that.

    117. Tam the Bam. says:

      Just listened to John McDonnell’s interview on the news at six (BBC):

      “I’m not going to fall into Nicola Sturgeon’s trap of blaming the ‘big bad English’…..

      I doubt if anyone has EVER heard Nicola blaming the English …blaming Westminster certainly…but blaming the English?
      I think not John.

    118. galamcennalath says:

      Re broadcast media’s frenzy. Now, I can’t speak from personal experience because I avoid virtually all broadcast news and current affairs on the basis it’s fake, biased, or I won’t learn anything from it.

      It seems from what is being said online that the media are wheeling out a string of BritNats with few pro independence folks to balance.

      Do they really still believe that giving wall to wall coverage to only one side is working? The evidence is it’s causing people to turn off or question. It’s probably even counter productive (from a pro UK perspective).

    119. msean says:

      It seems that the SNP are to be held to account via ‘the once in a generation’ thing.I heard Alex Salmond say something similar,speaking for himself,not the SNP,and clarified it as personal opinion.

      Meanwhile,the rest of the parties aren’t to be held accountable via the “as near to federalism as possible”,the vow,the Smith commission,the Scotland act rammed through the “English” parliament (not my words),over a century of lying about closing the House of Lords,(now stuffed with ermine clad ‘Labour’ Lords and a load of other things.

      Anyway,some MPs who survived the 2015 cull seem to have forgotten what happened to Labour then. If I was high up in UK Labour,I too would take Mr McDonnells’ view.How are they supposed to get any of the fallen 40 back without giving ground to reality?

    120. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Murray is an unprincipled, illiberal, moron. Fair comment.

      On Amartya Sen and The idea of justice

      ….Smith’s work in The Theory of Moral Sentiments is particularly important to Sen because, from within this second Enlightenment tradition that Sen values, it offers an approach to the notion of “fairness” that is highly attractive. Whereas Rawls employs an elaborate fiction in order to arrive at his notion of fairness (contractors are supposed to choose principles under a hypothetical “veil of ignorance” wherein they are ignorant of certain key facts about their own position) Smith asks instead, what would an “impartial spectator,” someone (or several someones, because there could actually be numerous impartial spectators surveying the scene from different vantage points) observing from the outside make of a particular state of affairs.14

      This is much less cumbersome and complicated a notion than that of the original position, and it has the added advantage of not pretending to be a precise exercise. It invites us to trust our capacity to identify injustice, if we can but project ourselves out of our natural partiality for our own interests. Sen’s critique of conventional justice theory is developed in Parts I and II of The Idea of Justice alongside an elaboration of the notion of social choice, which is crucial to his understanding of how we actually compare the impact of different policies.

      It is important here not to confuse the theory of social choice with what some economists call “rational choice theory.” The latter assumes that individuals are rigidly self-interested, and indeed defines rationality as the pursuit of self-interest; whereas Sen insists that fairness involves a reasonable concern for the interests of others, and his account of social choice theory reflects this insistence-drawing heavily on his work on welfare economics, including such famous papers as the engagingly titled “Rational Fools” of 1977. 15

    121. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Curious, come to think about it, this Ruthiesplaining about “betrayal” by London Labour. Not just because of her personal flip-flops and kow-towing to London, but because of what her lot did to El Gordo and his vowery once his (and NorthBritLab’s) usefulness to them was over.

      Abused by Flip-flop and flatly contradicted by their Imperial Masters in London, and yet the dummies in Labour’s northern branch still don’t get it.

    122. Cubby says:


      Sorry it was not a valid comment. Only in your fools mind could it be valid. As I thought digging away like the fool you are trying to defend your initial foolish comment.

      I never said you were a liar as you state in this post. I did state you were a self confessed fool. I now say you are a foul mouthed self confessed fool that does not like critical comment. Perhaps fools should think twice before posting nonsense on Wings. Wings is not known for suffering fools gladly.

    123. kapelmeister says:

      England created the UK state over time through strength. Albeit needing subterfuge, bribery and coercion rather than conquest to get Scotland in. Morals aside, England created this state through strength.

      Now, in an age of highly developed international law and unprecedented levels of co-operation between countries, England is attempting to keep the UK state together from a position of weakness. Not merely material weakness but also psychological weakness of a most debilitating kind. What else is brexiteering but psychological weakness?

      As in 1707 Scotland remains small in population compared to our friends in the south. Yet we are far stronger in the criteria by which EU member states and others judge a country’s strength in the modern world. An outward looking attitude, co-operativeness and a progressive spirit.

    124. Petra says:

      It’s bad enough having the current crop of Unionist politicians giving it dokey without the many has-beens crawling out of the woodwork to butt their nebs in. Douglas Alexander works as an advisor to some law firm now and should stick to doing just that. The other Alexander brother Danny did a runner following lying through his teeth to the Scots in 2014. What a bunch of charlatans right enough.

    125. HandandShrimp says:

      Ruth only stands for one thing and that is no to Scottish independence. She has absolutely nothing to say about anything else that she sticks to with any consistency. She is irrelevant to Boris’ plans and she should be irrelevant to ours.

    126. Tony Hay says:

      BBC Scotland exactly 5 mins on the shadow chancellors indyref2 statement,no secondary questions to Leonard etc…….2 1/2 mins to puppy farming,they must think our heads button up the back.
      The establishment are shitting themselves and no mistake.

    127. Petra says:

      Cubby I’m trying to figure out what’s wrong with anyone saying that the RBS threats contributed to putting people off of supporting Independence. I reckon that the cumulative threats did. As to Mr Lucey. Why are you trying to drive people like him off the site? I don’t get it.

    128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 18:44,

      Amen to that.

      We don’t need steroidal-level agression displacing honest debate.

    129. Tam the Bam. says:

      Tony Hay @ 6-42pm

      Precisely.No real surprise that Leonard wasn’t confronted with the Ashcroft poll revealing there very definitely IS an appetite for Indyref2…or asked how he felt about the fact the same poll revealed that 40% of S/Lab voters would now back a second Indy ref.

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m sorry if my style is boring to some, but I think this stuff is kind of important. So in the interests of balance, the (t)Ruthless one is similarly an unprincipled, illiberal, moron. Fair comment.

      Deliberative Justice and Collective Identity: A Virtues-Centered Perspective


      Drawing upon insights from virtue ethics, this essay develops a concept of collective identity specifically suited to deliberative democracy: a virtues-centered theory of deliberative justice.

      Viewing democratic legitimacy as a political phenomenon, we must account for more than the formal rules that must be satisfied according to deontological theories of deliberative democracy. I argue that common approaches to deliberative democracy are unable to account for the motivations of deliberation, or ensure that citizens have the cognitive skills to deliberate well.

      Next, I engage with critics of deliberative democracy who have moved toward broader and more humanistic concepts of deliberation but have stopped short of conceiving of justice as a virtue and, in their own way, neglected questions of collective identity.

      I reconstruct justice as a virtue from a deliberative perspective, combining virtue ethics’ emphasis on habituation with a weaker sense of collective identity that allows for value pluralism and disagreement, consistent with deliberative democracy. That is, deliberative democracy requires a shared and habituated civic culture of mutual understanding of differences.

      Finally, drawing from discourse on race in contemporary American politics, I conclude with brief illustrations of the need for a collective identity based on mutual understanding. Although deliberative democracy does not require a thick or intense sense of social solidarity, it does need citizens to share habits, inclinations, and capacities to engage in communication across their differences.

      deliberative democracy, discourse ethics, justice, mutual understanding, virtue ethics

    131. Marcia says:

      That Ashcroft poll has certainly pulled the rug from a lot of opponents of Independence. What we need a couple more to confirm the direction of travel to make their nightmare permanent.

    132. defo says:

      me too
      sussed ages ago

    133. Golfnut says:

      @ Jock McDonnell.

      Ach, I thought you were referring to John McDonnell’s interview.

      He was indeed an orator, pity he didn’t put his skill to better use.

    134. Cubby says:

      Robert J Sutherland@6.49pm

      Mr Sutherland as you are obviously referring to me please note the following:

      1. Never touched steroids in my life. Care to apologise?

      2. I think you should look at your some of your own “honest debate type of comments that you have posted previously” before making such statements. People in glass houses throwing stones. You have had a few cracking ” honest debates ” yourself with people like the other Robert.

      Just trying to pick a fight with me are you Mr Sutherland?

    135. ben madigan says:

      O/T boys and girls, ladies and gents Here’s the latest on workplace sectarianism in Northern ireland.

      I know sectarianism is an issue in Scotland.

      I hope none of you ever encounter it in your daily work but if you do – maybe this will be helpful

    136. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 19:44,

      It’s you who are so obviously lusting to pick fights.

      You also obviously don’t understand the use of metaphor.

      But the nature of your reply does rather prove the point people are making.

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      Can anyone moderately rational, describe the full-English Brexit as being in the interests of the “common good”? Can anyone moderately rational, describe contemporary Britain as being a functioning deliberative democracy?

      The Common Good: A Buck-Passing Account

      THE “common good” is appealed to by philosophers, political scientists, and politicians alike. Although their purposes are diverse, most invocations of the common good share a unified orientation toward it. The common good is taken to be an ideal worthy of our political pursuit. The common good represents a way of rising above private or parochial interests, setting aside political posturing or gamesmanship, and working toward goals whose value none could deny.1

      Given its uniformly positive valence, it should not be surprising that the common good is often paired with the other guiding concept of political society: justice. We are frequently told that the appropriate aim of a deliberative
      democracy is toward “justice and the common good,” implicating both that the common good is something beyond justice itself, but also that the concepts play a similar function – as appropriate guides to political activity.2

    138. Cubby says:

      Robert J Sutherland

      Mr Sutherland I am not obviously lusting to pick a fight with you. I just don’t let people away with making incorrect, insulting and hypocritical comments about me. I do know what a metaphor is. I also know when people are patronising.

      You have had plenty of fights on Wings in the past using some choice language so please stop all this holier than thou crap.

    139. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Someone should tell RBS that they will NEVER operate in an Indy Scotland.

      They can pick through the bones of the failed casino banking South of the Border.

      In these people’s minds “Business is Business, Cash is King.”

      Newton’s third law states; For ever action has an equal and opposite reaction.


      There will be more than enough Savings and Investment Banks queuing up for brass plaques in an iScotland so RBS can whistle oot their arse IMHO!

      I’m sure their shareholders will be happy!

    140. Cubby says:


      You raise two seperate questions. I will answer them in turn.

      1. I never said anything like you posted re cumulative threats etc. That is your incorrect interpretation of my words. My comments were related to RBS fooling US. They may have fooled some fools but there is no evidence to support that RBS fooled US and that alone led to a no vote. That was what was posted.

      2. Lucey. Anyone can post on Wings it is an open forum. Lucey can post when he wants so I am not driving him off. No more than you driving off others you have criticised eg Craig Murray.

      “People like him.” Don’t know what you mean by that. What I do understand about Lucey is that he regularly posts ( not just on Wings) the same points – is corrected in some detail as per R. Peffers recently and then comes back later and says the same anti independence stuff ignoring the rebuttal info previously provided to him. The same approach that HYFUD takes.

      Hopefully that helps clarify the points you raised.

    141. Cubby says:


      Got something to say why not try saying it yourself.

    142. CameronB Brodie says:

      British constitutional practice is justified through natural law, and the assurance of natural justice. The full-English Brexit anihilates the natural law and natural justice principles that justify the British constitution. Subsequently, the only way to justify British nationalism is through utilitarian ethics, which are incapable of delivering social justice.

      Natural Law and Justice

      “Human beings are a part of nature and apart from it.” The argument of Natural Law and Justice is that the philosophy of natural law and contemporary theories about the nature of justice are both efforts to make sense of the fundamental paradox of human experience: individual freedom and responsibility in a causally determined universe….

    143. Petra says:

      Oh well no more to be said other than we’ll just have to agree to disagree Cubby.

    144. Macart says:

      Yes. Yes they are charlatans. 🙂

    145. defo says:

      I rest my case

    146. Cubby says:


      What case would that be – you never said anything.

    147. Cubby says:


      No idea what you think we are disagreeing about. You asked me some questions in a reasonable manner and I answered them in a reasonable and respectful manner. If you don’t want to clarify what you are still disagreeing with me about then fine but next time you ask me some questions I may well not bother answering as what is the point.

      Pity some others have taken your comments to then have a go at me. If posters like you ask me questions in a reasonable manner I respond in a reasonable manner if others like Bobp abuse me then they get no respect from me. If they post nonsense then I will comment as I see it. Pretty much the same as you do.

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the Scottish public only appreciated how corrupt and unjust British constitutional practice is.

      Educating for Deliberative Democracy:
      The Role of Public Reason and Reasoning


      Across the country, Americans are experimenting with a form of democracy – often referred to as deliberative democracy – in which ordinary citizens, public officials, and politicians engage in an open, inclusive process of dialogue, deliberation, and action in order to address matters of public concern. At the core of deliberative democracy is a conviction that conflict and competing policy concerns are best resolved through a process of collective, or public, reasoning.

      Our political and social systems should be organized to encourage citizens and policy makers alike to be reasonable and to be able to give reasons for their views, actions, or policy choices. This article explores the role of reason in public life. It reviews how terms such as reasonableness and public reason are used in legal and political theory. It then calls upon higher education to examine the role of reason and reasoning in student learning and development and as a critical component of education for citizenship in a diverse democracy.

    149. Bobp says:

      Cubby , you say to Petra I abused you. I never said a word to you till you jumped on me in your post at 5.50pm calling me a fool and intimating I was lying. What is your problem pal? Have you got mental issues?.

    150. AndyMcKangry says:

      The only “Unionists” in the UK are the Scottish type!!
      There are no Unionists in England, they don’t give a shit about Scottish Unionists cause England is the Uk and they own Scotland.
      Scottish Unionists make me broke cause they are serfs and happy to be so and think the English establishment are thanking them for it.

    151. Cubby says:


      1. I repeat I never said you were lying or “intimating” you were lying.

      2. No mental issues here just a good memory unlike you. Perhaps you abuse so many people you can’t remember. You don’t get a free pass when you abuse me.

      3. I ain’t your “pal”.

      4. Your comment at 5.05pm was nonsense then and still is.

      5. In my book telling someone to ” fcuk off you gobshite” is abusive.

    152. Bobp says:

      Cubby , right then just scroll past my posts in future without trolling me you gobshite.

    153. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 20:43,

      It’s interesting. Although I wrote “reply” previously I should of course have written “response”, since I actually addressed my posting to someone else. And in it I made a generic point about excessively-aggressive posts which interfere with good debate. (Which is objectively true, no matter who says it. To which sadly the present thread now attests.)

      Nowhere there did I actually make any reference to you in particular. Yet in responding, and as aggressively as you did, you clearly self-identified. So who am I to disagree with you on that? =grin=

    154. Cubby says:

      Robert J Sutherland@11.55pm

      Nonsense – Petra referred to me in the post.

      ” Aggressively” – I pointed out your hypocrisy. If you find that aggressive then it must be a different Robert J Sutherland who is posting now from the one who has posted all the previous truly aggressive comments I have seen.

      Mr Sutherland you just didn’t like your hypocrisy being pointed out.

    155. Cubby says:


      Sorry you don’t get to tell me what to do. Especially as you keep using foul language to abuse me.

      If you post nonsense I will call it out for what it is if I want to.

      I wonder in what type of company/ world you have inhabited in which you feel able to abuse people and expect them just to suck it up and accept it. Oh that’s right you live in England don’t you.

    156. CameronB Brodie says:

      Honestly folk, the practice of British constitutionalism is a million miles from liberal pluralism.

      Contemplating Rainer Forst’s Justification and Critique: Toward a Critical Theory of Politics and The Right to Justification: Elements of a Constructivist Theory of Justice—Book Reviews


      Rainer Forst writes very well. However, his work is not a mere triumph of style, which is often found among political philosophers. Similar to John Rawls’ A Theory of Justice, which was published more than 40 years ago, Forst’s substance stands up to scrutiny as well. His sound exposition of a theory of justice based on reciprocity and generality is grounded in a concept of human dignity which he defines as “being an equal member in the realm of subjects and authorities of justification” (Forst and Cronin 2014, p. 101).

      In The Right to Justification: Elements of a Constructivist Theory of Justice and Justification and Critique: Towards a Critical Theory of Politics, Forst lays out an impressive blueprint, tackling a wide range of contemporary moral and political issues such as the tension between being recognized and being a mere recipient of goods, services, and money; toleration in a pluralistic society; and deep contemplation of the concept of human dignity. This social…

    157. Capella says:

      @ CBB 5.29 – also interesting re Sarah Boyack. But I must confess I have no idea what competitive destruction is either. Is it what’s happening to the Labour Party?

    158. Bobp says:

      Ah boo hoo the mung bean can dish it out, but doesn’t like it dished back.

    159. Bobp says:

      Cubby 12.20am. Wee bit of anti-englishness creeping in there eh? Couldn’t help yourself eh. Something you are Quick to jump on others about.

    160. Cubby says:


      More nonsense and abuse from Bobp. You are the one dishing out all the foul language. I repeat if you post nonsense I reserve the right to comment on it. You don’t get to tell me what I can post – no matter how often you swear etc etc.

      On the other hand you could stick to just watching Tipping Point and not post your nonsense.

    161. bookie from hell says:

      Ian Murray saying Richard Leonard ruled out Scotland Indy2 on Sunday Politics

      NOT TRUE

      BBC Scotland edited clip

      He refuses to confirm scottish labour position after being asked 3 x by gordon brewer

    162. Kenny J says:

      that Cubby is one nasty piece of work, and his aidekick who’s name escapes me just now.
      Only he has the road to salvation.

    163. Cubby says:

      Kenny J @12.30pm

      Many thanks for your kind observation. Care to expand on how you came to that conclusion or do you just enjoy dishing out personal abuse and then run away?

      “Only he has the road to salvation”. – no idea what you are talking about – never posted anything that could be interpreted as religious.

      Not a great first post.

    164. Cubby says:


      Thanks Brian. I stand corrected. It really really isn’t that difficult to admit when you are wrong. Pity others resort to personal abuse when they are shown to be wrong.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think what is happening to the Labour party is a shame, but it is what happens when you forget your political principles and feel obliged to out gammon the gammons. Then again, the British Labour party has always tried to marry socialism with colonialism.

      Competitive destruction is one of the most significant economic theories relating to capital formation. I’ll not bore you with the details, but it is quite alarming that a lecturer in Town and Country Planning, would not at least be aware of it. For example, measured one way, the London Docklands Corporation was an economic success. Measured another way, it was a major cause of competitive destruction, attracting investment that would have been made elsewhere, due to the Corporation’s ‘business friendly tax and planning regulations. So local economies elsewhere were bled of investment, and local democracy diluted in the east-end of London. Huzza shouted the Tories. 😉

    166. Willie says:

      McDonnell and his English Parliament can go and shaft themselves.

      A referendum or not is the choice of the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people.

    167. RM says:

      What do politicians do? Most of them haven’t done a stroke of real work , impossible to get an appointment with any politician, their supposed to be working for the people the more you look at it the more inept the whole set up is, nobody under 40 should be in politics and we need real working people not chancers who never tell the truth and want an easy way through their working life to get a big pension at the end what a farce the whole system is.

    168. Gordon Hunter says:

      Can someone tell me who said the referendum was ” once in a generation” and in what context and what authority they had to say it on my behalf?

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