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Voices of the colonies

Posted on August 07, 2019 by

In case you missed it, there was an interesting phone-in on the subject of Scottish independence on James O’Brien’s LBC radio show from 10am this morning. I chipped my tuppence-worth in at the start (I’m the second caller, from about 6m 25s), but it’s fascinating listening to O’Brien’s tone evolve as the hour-long segment goes on.

(James O’Brien, LBC, 7 August 2019)
.

We don’t doubt for a moment the sincerity and good intent with which he states his position. But when he talks in the intro about the special feelings he has when he’s in Scotland, which he also gets in Greece, the whole argument collapses.

Because O’Brien doesn’t appear to need to feel that he “owns” Greece, or that he’s a Greek citizen, to have that warmth towards it. He doesn’t need the people of England to elect Greece’s governments for it – he’s happy to have those feelings towards a completely independent country. So why not about an independent Scotland?

(Sadly I was cut off before I got a chance to respond to his point about Germany and its federal regions, which would have been to point out that no one German region is six times bigger than all the others put together and can – and does – impose its will on them whenever it wants.)

And much to his credit he appears to realise that as the show goes on. Whether he still thinks deep down that the Scottish independence movement is in significant part driven by anti-Englishness, only he can say. But his callers today at least appear to have made him think about it, and it’s a process worth listening to.

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    1. 07 08 19 18:56

      Voices of the colonies | speymouth

    407 to “Voices of the colonies”

    1. CmonIndy says:

      Cant get that to play. Anyone else?

    2. Liam says:

      Works for me (Win 10)

    3. Kevin Cargill says:

      I caught the last caller, an English woman living in Scotland who admits she voted No in 2014 but has completely changed her mind. As you say, even to me as someone who’d missed most of the programme up to that point, I could tell he was having some sort of epiphany and was refreshingly upbeat and positive about the case for Indy by the end of the show. I’m going to make a point of listening to the entire show when I have time.

    4. Allan Stewart says:

      The subject continued into the Shelagh Foggarty show. Serial idiot, Tom Harris exMP, was invited to pontificate on Indyref, Brexit and Indyref2. Astonishingly, it is apparently ‘unpatriotic’ to seek Indyref2 because it causes people to disagree.

    5. Thomas Valentine says:

      You can find idiots every where you look. Particularly if your narrative is supported by looking for certain kinds of idiots.

    6. Normski says:

      Annoyingly he also accepted the UK Defence Journal’s comment that the frigates had been ordered/delivered as promised at #IndyRef2014 without bothering to fact check and accepted their comment that the female Indy supporter had been lying – which, of course, she wasn’t.

    7. Effijy says:

      It is happening!

      Scotland’s dreadful relationship with a draconian Westminster is unjustifiable
      And must now be brought to an end.

      The First Ministers Independence Petition continues to grow with many signing up
      Through reading these posts on WoS.

      The number is just about ready to go through 270,000!

      All of this must and will bolster the First Minister to press the accelerator.
      Just get us around the Boris Brexit Bend and it’s into Top Gear!

    8. Effijy says:

      When James suggested couldn’t we try harder to get along,
      What like the EU has been doing, like SNP has been doing.

      How do you trust the immoral crooks next door who illegally
      Broke the Purda and every single promise in the Vow.

      We are supposed to now be the strongest devolved parliament in the world
      And now they tell us it’s so strong they can take every devolved power away
      From us and we don’t get a say in it?

      Indy Ref 1 is completely void as Westminster told us the only
      Way to stay in Europe was to vote No.
      More than 10% of the No votes would have been based on this as a
      63% Remain vote up here more than proved.

      The Union is Dead. Long live Scotland!

    9. Effijy says:

      The First Ministers Independence petition link.

      https://www.yes.scot/

    10. Tam the Bam. says:

      Yeah I caught your interview Stu…realised it was you straight away when he said…”..Stuart in Bath”.

      I also believe it was a fascinating listen and to be fair..by his own admission..the only two callers who were ‘chopped’ (Mr O’Briens phrase) were from Wimbledon and Milton Keynes..both anti-indy.

      Goodstuff.

    11. Dr Jim says:

      Perhaps James O’Brien might like to interview the First Minister, I’m sure she’d be very happy to do that and sign him up as a member of the party by the time she’s finished, who knows she might give him his own Scottish Passport so he’ll feel more comfy when he goes to visit North Berwick, although she might also remind him that if he goes for a swim in the sea there he’s actually still in England

      I’ll bet James doesn’t know that

    12. Vestas says:

      James O’Brien is generally one of the “good guys”, although how much of that is him & how much a media persona I dunno.

      I still remember him pointing out that Amber Rudd’s first speech to Tory conference as Home Secretary was basically chapter 2 of Mein Kampf which she was completely unaware of.

      Priceless.

    13. Liz g says:

      While James might like us all to just get along!
      But…
      Getting along doesn’t answer how Scotland is ment to have any democracy.
      Presumably he would agree that people should live in a democracy. The premise of which is that the people can hold their government to account.To vote them out if they don’t suit the people!
      How is that possible for Scotland in this bloody Union?

      Brexit is not the cause of our independence but rather a major example of Scotland’s inability to hold it’s government to account that’s finally shown the democratic deficit for all too see and for none to deny.

      Now while I hope the English get their Brexit cancelled it’s beside the point.
      Scotland needs independence to bring it’s Government within slapping distance and it needs this whither Brexit happens or not.
      It’s always needed it!

      Letting someone else rule yer land is not democracy and at least he seems to grasp that….

    14. Jim Wands says:

      Insincerity drips out of him. It’s about Scotland getting to choose.

    15. Dr Jim says:

      BBC Labour party in Scotland admit to being furious and Ruth Davidson employs one of her sectarian slogans by saying “No Conservative Prime Minister would sell the jersey”

    16. Robert Peffers says:

      Sorry to go O/T so quickly but Wingers may be very interested in Scotland at 7:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afRJVwoHT5E

      It has started but you can start from the beginning now or after it has finished.

    17. brewsed says:

      LBC claims it has 2,352,000 listeners. There were a few more today, ones with IP addresses from north of the border.

    18. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Partly of course that’s because it’s about them and not us as it should be. But the good people at least can get over it, and will recognise that in the light of circumstances a new decision on independence has to be taken and ultimately it’s our call.

      It’s not as if they can’t come visit for ever after. Some may even prefer to migrate here.

    19. Frank Gillougley says:

      As presenters go, I find that James O’Brien’s alright.

      My response to his sincerely felt opinion that ‘Scotland always feels like home’ would simply be that, England has ALWAYS felt like a foreign country to me.

      (His re-run of the 2014, ‘we love you Scotland’ was just clearly intended to elicit a response)

      I write this having been mercifully out of the political groundhog loop as I’ve been fortunate enough to be in Hungary for the last 2 months setting up/renovating a home here for my nether years (too long a story). My back-up plan should the Brits not accede to the Scottish question/ demand (which I think will be painfully unlikely) is that I have my Irish passport (my birthright) in order to remain a European and so my residency here should be on reasonably firm ground (excluding Orban and Fidesz of course)

      The point i would like to make is that home is where the heart and love is. I am Scots Irish, pure and simple. that is home for me, as equally I feel at home with the Magyarol.

      Its to do with language, its to do with culture, its to do with people, and Archie Gemmill getting ever closer to that six yard line.

      ‘Feeling at home’ has probably got fuck all to do with ‘politics’, or what passes for it these days.

    20. Brotyboy says:

      A High of 23°? Fuck off.

    21. galamcennalath says:

      Yes, a partial epiphany there. And I think lots of little epiphanies are happening across these isles. Previous No voters now question their past assumptions and conclusions. Folks down south who are really only think about Scotland and her issues for the first time are realising why we want out.

      Education, information, and provoking thought will win through … is winning.

      Everyone has been doing their damnedest to try to get along, to cooperate …. EXCEPT hardcore Brexiteers!

      The Scottish Government has bent over backwards with reasonable compromise solutions. Even to the extend where some pro Indy folks question why they are being so reasonable.

      The EU has best over backwards, even accommodating unreasonable Tory red lines. A sensible backstop has been agreed to ensure a solution on the Irish Border no matter how trade talks go.

      IMO the only obstructive barstads are far right English Nationalists!

      The time for all this reasonableness is slipping away fast. People everywhere see it.

    22. Bill Hume says:

      The true message of why Scoland wants independence is slowly but surely getting out there.

    23. Bill Hume says:

      Scotland…..I meant Scotland

    24. Clapper57 says:

      I would loved to have told James why he was wrong on his statement that if Gordon Brown was PM it would have actually helped or strengthened his argument for Scotland remaining in UK..but I respect the fact that he is probably unaware of the issues we in Scotland, who support Independence, have with that individual….or even as he stated a more “liberal” Tory as PM.

      Also the person who noted that Stu had lived a long time in England yet pro active on Scottish Independence was given short shrift by James when comparison made re “British” pensioners living in Spain yet still active in “British” politics….also perhaps the caller forgot irrespective of one’s beliefs or politics that this, unfortunately, is still the UKOK and one can live ANYWHERE within it….I mean his argument was ludicrous .

      Must admit James O’Brien is not too bad but , as he admitted, he has never been interested in any politics outwith his own country but at least he is willing to have an open mind but his sentimental feelings I am afraid is not enough to want to keep us tied to UKOK….we had that in 2014 with all of the celebs who stated ” Stay with us.We love you” then f**ked off and were never heard from again post Indy Ref….funny the contrast of the callers who were pro independent on this show in comparison to the bitter and negative callers on Jeremy Vine show who represented the Unionist side….compare and contrast indeed.

    25. Petra says:

      That was well worth listening to. All supporting Independence barring 2 English dolts (living in England) who were put in their place. I loved the call-in from the guy complaining about Stu living in Bath, but supporting Independence. He got short shrift. All callers were articulate and informative including the Polish woman and the English woman living in the Borders area who had voted No previously along with their English husbands. The latter members of ‘English Scots for Yes.’ A bit of an eyeopener, and an education, for James O’Brien and his 2 million plus listeners? I just hope that the lady who mentioned the frigate contracts gets back to O’Brien to set the record straight. Highlight that her comments were correct. Amazing don’t you think too that someone from the MoD or whatever? jumped right in there and contacted O’Brien’s team?

      Anyway a big thank you to all who phoned in and did Scotland proud.

    26. Alison Macleod says:

      Interesting. I agree, you could hear the realisation. Chuffed to listen to all participants, aye those two eejits too, who were cut off. Only a wee radio phone in, feels and more importanly sounds very different to before 2014. *caveat aplenty ?

    27. Robert Peffers says:

      O’Brian is totally unaware of the situation. I haven’t had time to hear the whole programme yet but just after the news and commercials he says, “And Scotland wanting to leave the United Kingdom”.

      He is wrong for, as one of the only two member kingdoms in the United Kingdom, when Scotland regains her independence it ends the United Kingdom.

      The United Kingdom certainly contains three countries and a bit of another country but these were/are all parts of the Kingdom of England. They are not signatories to the Treaty of Union that is the international treaty that constituted the United Kingdom.

      So O’Brian is off to a bad start. So anyway I’ll go back and continue listening to the rest of what seems like being the usual, misinformed, unionist claptrap.

    28. Mad Jock McMad says:

      Towards the end a caller from Scotland came on and put the argument that independence was not about England or anti-Englishness, it was about Scotland wanting to have full control of its own affairs as opposed to having them imposed by Tory Governments we have never voted for since 1955 and whose policies are at 180 degrees to those the people of Scotland wish to pursue.

      James, to his credit, saw the point in the current Brexit scenario.

    29. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@9.12pm

      Glad to see you back posting and in good form. Hope the eyes get sorted asap.

    30. Petra says:

      O/T

      Have a listen to Ian Murray. Not happy about O’Donnell using the term “English Parliament” (which it is), English colleagues coming north of the border and so on.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/IanMurrayMP/status/1159043107310198785?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

    31. Cubby says:

      Did O’brien really say 500 years of Union. Give me strength.

      Just couldn’t continue to listen anymore.

    32. CmonIndy says:

      Jeez Ian ‘Union Flag’ Murray got a bit of a toasting on BBC The Nine.
      When pressed on why he supported a 2nd EUref but opposed a 2nd Indyref, he complained that Brexit case was full of Broken promises.
      I had to take deep breaths as the oxygen level across Scotlsnd got a bit rarefied as (more than) half the Scottish population did the same.
      I predict Rev could have good fun with that in an imminent post.

    33. Cubby says:

      Lizg@7.40pm

      As so often Liz you are spot on.

      Leaving the EU against Scotlands clearly expressed wishes is a symptom that highlights the need for independence to others that cannot see the true fundamental reasons for Scotland to be independent.

    34. Petra says:

      BBC keeping the Mc Donnell story going tonight saying that as he’s reiterated his Indyref2 comments there’s something going on. Boils down to they’ll need the SNP if a GE is forthcoming. Meanwhile the Tories have seemingly carried out a repeat of the in the pocket – Nicola / Miliband (Corbyn) cartoon. Ruth also came out of hiding spitting so much that I couldn’t make out what she said. Maybe something about a Corbyn / Sturgeon deal?

    35. defo says:

      R4 Talking head Uncle Tom.
      “once in a lifetime” again, and again….
      Lie after lie.
      “respect the result”!
      Shameless
      This is all they’ve got left in their armoury?
      🙂

    36. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says: 7 August, 2019 at 9:22 pm:

      ” … Glad to see you back posting and in good form. Hope the eyes get sorted asap.”

      You have no idea how frustrating this eyes problem is. It keeps changing all the time. At the best I’m reading with the aid of a big magnifying glass. At worst I can’t see the time on the big clock on the wall and the text on the mobile is hopeless.

      Sometimes I have to use the Windows 10 mechanical voice to read from the computer and it read everything even ads and reports that there is a picture that I cannot make out what it shows. \\\then things change and many of the colours around the house just fade away to grey – especially reds and oranges but sometimes things I know are blue go green and greens go blue and then I get eye strain and headaches so am forced to listen to the radio but cannot see what stations I’m trying to tune in.

      Thing is I’m one of those people that just cannot sit doing nothing. I’ll go mad before I get the operation.

    37. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers –

      It’s unfair to attack James O’Brien on the basis of such a short extract. He can’t be expected to share your knowledge.

      Later in the morning he admitted that the call-in had given him a lot to think about and he put his hands up as being guilty of simplifying Scottish and Irish political matters in the past.

      If only we had some prominent presenters on Radio Scotland who had the balls do likewise…

      🙁

    38. Meindevon says:

      I was listening to this (strangely just started listening to this channel in the last few days) today but missed Stu’s intro whilst rushing around getting lunch and trying to listen over tv in other room and heard the ‘Bath’ twang and kept thinking I know that voice! Now I know why.

      Rev, if you get on again can you ask them would they swop places with Scotland? Would they have Scottish governments foisted on them? Would they have 59 MPs compared to England’s 533 (?)? Would they host Scotland’s nuclear weapons even if they were anti nuclear? Would they give all their oil and gas revenues to Scotland and wait to see what they got back?

      All for the sake of a sense of togetherness.

      Somehow I doubt England would.

    39. Petra says:

      @ Defo (10:22pm), do they really think that they are influencing people to come around to their way of thinking by going on with this “once in a lifetime” garbage? Even the most politically ignorant Scots must see that Westminster is a shambles and that the situation has changed dramatically. Goodness only knows how they, the Unionists, will react as support for Independence rises? One thing for sure is that Independence supporters have behaved themselves, in the main, following losing IndyRef1 and over the subsequent 5 years. Has anyone seen any of our politicians behave like them in the face of defeat, etc? That difference alone should send out a clear message to the Scots.

    40. Auld Rock says:

      Perhaps a quick genealogy check might be in order.

    41. call me dave says:

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      Every Loser Wins: How “democracy” works in Scotland as part of the UK

      ————————————————————–
      PS: Radio 4 (just now)

      Prof Curtis says Labour / SNP working together might happen.
      Hence McDonnnel’s remarks.

    42. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Meindevon (10.41) –

      You say you only started listening to LBC recently.

      Same here. I usually avoid commercial radio like the proverbial because I cannot stand the adverts but LBC has obviously struck on a successful antidote to 24/7 muzak pap and more power to them.

      They certainly have a broad range of opinion covered via their presenters but it does makes you wonder what their office parties are like.

      😉

    43. Sinky says:

      Ian Murray on BBC newsnight but no SNP rep to debate with him

    44. galamcennalath says:

      Auld Rock says:

      Prof Curtis says Labour / SNP working together might happen.

      The perfect plan ….. the SNP agrees to field no candidates in England and Wales, in return Labour will field no candidates in Scotland! 🙂

    45. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I note Henry McLeish has come out in support of McDonnnell’s position.

    46. Hamish100 says:

      Bbc radio 4 The World Tonight- listen to the bile of Tom Harris ex Labour MP now writer for a Tory paper and regular on BBC programmes such as Shereen.

      His hatred of the SNP is more marked than I have heard in a long time, his Unionist credentials for all to see. His disdain of Scotland without question
      For me this is the type of guy that destroyed labour in Scotland.

      No surrender , no referendum , no democracy– suck it up Scotland.
      Hope someone can record it for all to hear.

    47. Tam the Bam. says:

      Sinky @ 10-58pm

      Don’t have a problem with there being no SNP representative present.This is..after all..an internal UK Lab/Scots Lab fight.

    48. galamcennalath says:

      Hamish100 says:

      No surrender , no referendum , no democracy– suck it up Scotland.

      Makes me wonder who they think their audience is for all this bollocks and bile?

      Who do they think is going to be impressed for persuaded?

      How can nasty creeps spitting venom possibly be an appealing advert for their Union?

      They are doing sterling work for the Indy cause! Keep it up! 😉

    49. Clootie says:

      I think they are rattled 🙂

    50. manandboy says:

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics
      “The UK will leave the European Union in October without a divorce deal causing a severe economic shock”

      As was the case with the James O’brien radio phone in show, the Unionist side rarely talk in terms of ‘Divorce’, even though, as in the example above, it is a commonly used way to describe a political separation.

      Everyone knows all about divorces of course, about breakdown and separation, which is precisely why The Unionist side avoids it. Divorce is normal. Independence is normal. The Union is what is not normal.

      Divorce proceedings ahead. It is time.

    51. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@10.31pm

      Sounds bloody awful. Hope you can get it fixed pronto.

    52. Gordon Bain says:

      That is outstanding radio. Even the bits in-between.

    53. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Stu.,

      Valiant attempt at trying to get a word in she-ways to this eejit who loves his own voice.

      James O’Brien has hosted some genuinely good interviews..

      But this programme is a 1 out of 10 FAIL.

      James O’Brien KEEPS INTERRUPTING GUESTS WITH HIS OWN RANDOM UNIONIST WAFFLE AND VAGUE DISJOINTED THOUGHTS.

      WHAT AN UTTER BELL END OF A SHIT SHOW.

      Stu., normally if you are on, I persevere through some horribly abominable presenters, but this oxygen thief had me scunnered.

      Just gave up and switched off.

      James, if you read this, please get a grip – and no I do not want to hold your hand as a fellow Yoon.

      On the subject of your asking Yoons to phone in to support you. Do you not think that is the part of your problem? The vast majority of your callers are pro-democracy and want Scotland to govern itself!

      THE MAJORITY OF SCOTS NOW WANT A SECOND INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM.

      Our Scottish Government is currently putting the IndyRef2 legislation in place. Stuff your section 30 order, WE WILL HAVE OUR INDYREF2.

      There is nothing your dreadful London Yoon ham radio efforts, nor Union Alistair Jackery, nor BoJo Britannia can do to stop us.

      Indeed, when Scotland is Independent and back in the EU, there will be as many English refugees seeking Scottish passports as the current 25,000 extra passport seeking folk from England that have been overwhelming the Republic of Ireland passport office begging for an Eire EU passport instead of the feckless blue English passport post-Brexit.

      Best check yer granny or grandpa is Scottish, otherwise Kent is as far as you will be going for your holidays. 🙂 🙂 🙂

    54. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 23:11,

      No surprise there. I just wish McLeish would really surprise us and finally come out for indy (not just indyref or the even-weaker “indyref permission”).

      Is there absolutely no-one in the NorthBritLab “upper echelons” who has the insight and courage to stand up on their hind legs and “go the whole hog” before it’s all too late? By doing so they might even save their party.

    55. Cubby says:

      Robert J Sutherland@12.09am

      Good post.

      I can answer your question for you. No there is no one in the Britnat Labour Party in Scotland. Best not waste your time hoping for someone to see the light.

    56. Dr Jim says:

      Henry McLeish has been saying stuff like this for years, he once walked into Alex Salmond’s office and stated “if the UK continues like this I’ll throw in with your lot”
      That was nearly 20 years ago and his Arse is stuck on the same fence post like the good little Laboural Democrat that he is

      Once we win he’ll say he was on our side all along and can he get a job at yapping in a quango

    57. jfngw says:

      The London controlled unionist parties at Westminster (all Scottish Parties support independence) claim that the indyref 2 vote is only valid if the SNP have a majority by themselves.

      Unfortunately for them even if the Greens abstained the SNP would have won a majority by themselves. The only alternative narrative is no matter how the Greens vote they are using it as an anti indy vote.

      Of course if the SNP & Greens are not allowed to tally their vote it must be equally true that the three unionist parties cannot tally theirs either.

      It is clear that there is a majority for indyref at Holyrod no matter how you cut the cake.

      They know this so they are now gong down the you can only vote if you have England’s permission. This is the reality as the SNP also have a Scottish majority at Westminster, I suppose it could be Wales or NI but it doesn’t matter it is other countries denying Scottish democracy.

    58. ailsa craig says:

      I listen to LBC – excluding the freaks – and normally to Jo’B in the mornings. On Brexit his mind slowly opened up as he learned more and more. Which is what open minds are supposed to do.
      He admits his knowledge of Scotland’s Politics was practically nil [and let’s face it, unless you know the underworld of our indy websites, we Scots would be in the same boat.
      He has moved from the horrors of ‘losing Scotland'[my pet hate] to feeling ‘at home’in Scotland [ok] but that Scotland is ‘like a room in MY home’ with a locked door.
      Oh dear, still that Colonial ownership [which I contacted him about] but by the end of the hour of excellent supporters of Indy, his brain was on the move; some of the myths being scrapped. There is hope! [interview time, Stu???]

      Also debate on Indy2 continued till 11pm. OK, some of the comments and commentators were parroting the same old garbage; pensions, currency, subsidy junkies, – they just hadn’t a clue, BUT there was more relevant discussion than in 6 months of BBC Shortbread.

      More positive steps from an unexpected source. All wwere ‘when’ not ‘if’.

    59. Dr Jim says:

      If the SNP win the next general election then Scotland are entitled to hold a referendum, they’re now saying
      Well I’m afraid that’s not what I’m saying or even thinking because once again the Unionists want to dictate the timing and terms of Scotland’s constitutional future to suit them and their machinations around their Westminster power trips, and well that’s just not on

      I’m not in the SNP to wait until the Labour or Tory party in England decide whenever I get to have a say in my own country just so they can do what Westminster always does which is kick the can down the road some more miles and years until we’re all dead or they get time to invent more tricks to stop us

      The announcement will be made this year without prevarication or consultation with Westminster parties

      Nicola Sturgeon! make it so!

      Or I’ll be settin phasers tae malky

    60. Confused says:

      The rectitude of scotgov and the FM in their dealings with the UK, esp. during brexit, and their dealings with the media, even in the light of clear bad-acting, has been near absolute.

      – the nationalists have been restless, myself included, wanting them to “do something”

      (I was thinking of this in a cosy bath, the thunderous rain banging off the roof, oddly tranquil …)

      those of you who love strategy and sun tzu and so on, consider this one : “the side effect was the true objective”

      the worrying notion in the public mind that “scotland needs permission from england” for an indyref, via s30 has taken root; the arguments “scottish people are sovereign – we dont need one”/ yes we do itll be like catalonia … ring constantly

      the ashcroft poll looks like a turning point, where we can establish clear distance

      – the UK deep state know how things run and their current idea – an atlanticist isolationist island state with north sea oil and finance – does not work if they lose our resources – they cannot ever agree to an s30 run fairly

      – labour, if it gets into power via SNP, gives an s30, loses Scotland will swiftly be out of govt themselves and probably never recover, so

      ANOTHER S30 CAN -NEVER- BE ALLOWED BY ANY UK GOVT LED BY ANY UK PARTY – ITS NOT HAPPENING

      demand for an S30, with ever rising support for independence will be the consequence; the ordinary english, totally ignorant of how things really work, will become incandescent about the “whining jocks – lets get rid of the grievance peddling haggis munchers”

      – we will bang on about it constantly, boring everyone to tears – S30 now, the refusals ever more shrill

      the FM will, finally succumb to democratic will and DEFY the UK – clearly as a last, desperate resort, the moral high ground occupied, the UK govt smeared in bad PR …
      – but in a clever way

      – she will announce INDYREF#2 -WITHOUT AN S30- but put completely under the auspices and control of an impartial, international body consisting of UN, EU, US state dept. – jimmy carter if he’s still alive

      – it will be arranged, policed, and COUNTED by third parties; the UK, nor even scottish local authorities, nor any agency of them or affiliated to them, will not have their sticky fingers anywhere near it

      – we may even have a “token” UN security force to deal with any provocateurs, troublemakers

      – “the man in the bowler hat refused to obey a direct order sir – so I shot him …”
      – “good man”!
      – “then after emptying the magazine, I reloaded … ”

      (ooh, err, missus)

      and if we WIN, the result will immediately be recognised by both the UN and EU because they were the ones to run it

      Scotland joins the family of nations, an EU member, a NATO member; peacefully, democratically and not relying on fair play from a gang of psychopaths

      the english have pissed off the entire world – even the americans have no time for them, and israel has open contempt; slavishly doing what you are told is not a special relationship. And you can always bring up 1776, the boston tea party or 1812 where the british burned the whitehouse. They are a busted flush – their hard power does not exist autonomously, their soft power is grossly exaggerated – by them alone, and even their dirty tricks is low-grade – “tommy sheridans 9 IN A BED SHAME” and “BIG LEXO and his BENNY HILL antics” … no one is buying it – what next, hack some diddys laptop and stick child porn on the hard drive?

      I think this is the way it will go, and there is nothing they can do about it – even if they know about it; grant an S30 and you cannot renege on the result (and this time, half of Scotland has its eyes wide open for dirty tricks) – force a “wildcat” poll and you can no longer influence it.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSuxnF8dOPU

      I think it will go great, nothing can stop us.

    61. Petra says:

      Does JK Rowling ever find herself perspiring and her face going red when she takes a wee peek at the written statement she made in relation to Scottish Independence in 2014? In particular when she reads the last sentence? In light of her professed love for Scotland, will she have the sense to change her mind now and if so, the grit to let us know?

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jk-rowlings-full-statement-on-scottish-independence-9527411.html

    62. geeo says:

      52% Yes, without counting a hugely pro indy demographic (16/17year olds) and a very likely complete reversal from No to Yes amongst EU Nationals, and Yes support is more accurately heading to 60% Yes

      Journo’s from The Times, of all places, defending the right of Scots to choose our democracy and shutting down hysterical pish spewing fron a rabid brexiter right wing, Scotland/SNP hating zoomer.

      The Labour Deputy leader chopping the legs from mr potato head…sorry, Richard Leonard, by backing our right to decide (yeah yeah, we all know he does not mean it, but he has to say it as labour on latest polling are due to win ZERO seats, as are the Tories (55 SNP seats V 4 LIBDEMS).

      And that is off 49% of the vote as well, so very close to the magical 50% of voters.

      And THAT buried WM gov poll, rumoured to be 57% Yes and no information if the 2 demographic groups mentioned earlier were asked !

      Not so many shrieking about “NS must do something” or “call the indyref” now, after that poll.

      The next poll will be interesting as the full Johnson as PM effect comes into play for that one.

      Sure, he could call a GE, and sure, he could win a majority, but if polling is accurate then he loses ALL 13 Scottish MP’s and watches as Labour also get wiped out in Scotland, as the SNP gains ALL 20 lab/Tory seats back.

      And that sends a very clear message that Scotland ain’t having it.

      So even if he wins, he is completely discredited in Scotland, at THE worse time possible for his precious union.

      Nicola and her team’s tactics have been absolutely perfect to get us to here.

      Sporting analogy:

      Last week, in the F1 GP, Lewis Hamilton was 1.5 seconds behind the leader, with about 18 laps to go, when his team boss told him to pit for new, faster tyres.

      Hamilton was raging initially as Verstappen up front did not come in for tyres right away, and by not doing so, lost the chance to change tyres and come out in front of Hamilton.

      So the leader (Verstappen) had to hope his tyres lasted the race duration, but they were losing rubber faster than ‘Scottish’ Labour lose voters.

      Hamilton was catching up 2-3 seconds a lap on new faster tyres, and easily caught the leader with 4 laps to go, and won at a canter.

      Irony was, Verstappen had to pit for tyres to even finish the race as he had zero rubber left and would have suffered a blow out in the last 3 laps, and finishing last.

      Point ?

      Hamiltons team made a strategic move that nobody seen coming, as they left it so the other team in the lead had no time to react, and by the time they realised what had happened, the race was gone.

      If they had even one more lap to react, they would have immediayely brought their car in and the last 13/14 laps would have been a real fight for the lead and win, which Verstappen would have likely won as he had more pace all day long.

      And that highlights why NS/SNP are keeping the plan under wraps until WM have no time to react to close off the move when it comes.

      52% and rising, and all we had to do was let them fuck it up.

      Imagine what will happen when the move is made, to these polls, as the floodgates of enthusiastic and excited Yessers open, and really get to it.!!

      Cannot wait.

    63. Alex McMahon says:

      I agreed with the woman who said that ‘we’ switch off the BBC and listen to LBC. I’ve been listening to LBC for donkeys for that reason. BBC Scotland? Yuk! I’ve also caught John Nicolson on Talk Radio a few times recently.

    64. Kangaroo says:

      Just reading the National and it appears the Tories are running the old ad with Corbyn in Nicola’s pocket. Suggestion in the article is that we should run an ad of Boris in Arelene Foster’s pocket. Anybody good on Photoshop, cause that would be a useful image to have.

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      The thing that must scare the yoons the most, is they know they’ve used their best arguments, but the desire for indy keeps growing. At some point, some will possibly see they are on the wrong side of history, but it is extremely difficult for reason to penetrate intransigent nationalism. That’s your 20% hardcore authoritarian nationalists who would never surrender (see Scotland in Union).

      I hope Dugdale is following my comments, as I think she could learn a thing or to. She might find this stuff helpful to her new job in that new think-tank.

      Rawls’ Mature Theory of Social Justice
      An Introduction for Students

      https://people.wku.edu/jan.garrett/ethics/matrawls.htm

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not simply taking the piss out of Dugdale, not simply, I truly want to help. Her job is to foster political engagement, which can only foster awareness of Scotland’s lack of democratic justice. Is Dugdale one of our deep moles? 😉

      Truth, Reason and Justice: Epistemology and Politics
      in Evidence Discourse

      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1468-2230.1994.tb01971.x

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      I don’t think Dugdale is a particularly virtuous individual worthy of much compassion, but I do support her task of encouraging political engagement.

      Political Self-Determination and the Normative Significance of Territorial Boundaries
      https://seis.bristol.ac.uk/~plcdib/territory/papers/banai_selfdetermination.pdf

    68. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Confused @ 1.11am

      I did like your script there, and cannot wait for the movie.

      As you say, no Westminster Party can ever agree to a Section 30 order; they know, without us subsidising them, England is buggered.

    69. robert alexander harrison says:

      Those two from Wimbledon and milton keynes are the typical English supremacist types the disease festering England as it had the potential to be better and yet people like those 2 hold it back the conservatives are proof of that then theres ukip and the brexit party which is ukip 2.0 those lot running in Westminster is why England is the bad guy they are the problem not the soulution.

    70. robert alexander harrison says:

      Kangaroo that link its like the worst English supremacist rant ive ever read its not untill the 4th from last paragraph does the nail gets hit as upto that point it looks like nothing but English conservative propaganda london rule dont even work for England well my problem is the English ignored that problem like it wasnt even there and now they doomed themselves to tory rule so why should Scotland stay in a political union that dont even work in England.

    71. Giving Goose says:

      Re the link from Kangaroo;
      This should be circulated far and wide.
      I’m delighted with the sentiments expressed as they work both ways in the Indy conversation, especially in encouraging England to think of itself as a stand alone independent from Scotland (sorry Wales, haven’t forgotten about you).

    72. Willie says:

      Listened to around half of the programme.

      O’Brian’s style and content is absolutely low grade English slop talk. That together with him talking over everyone makes the programme, at least for me, low rent.

    73. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 7 August, 2019 at 9:23 pm:

      ” … Have a listen to Ian Murray. Not happy about O’Donnell using the term “English Parliament” (which it is), English colleagues coming north of the border and so on.
      https://mobile.twitter.com/IanMurrayMP/status/1159043107310198785?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

      I listened to him, Petra, and what struck me about his nonsense was the number of times he spoke about, “Scottish Labour”. There is no such party registered as a political party in the United Kingdom. Neither is there, “English Labour”, registered as a party. Neither party exists nor is there a Parliament of England but that doesn’t stop Westminster acting as if there was.

    74. manandboy says:

      JOHNSON’S GOVERNMENT IS JUST A BRAINWASHING MACHINE.

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/07/new-rebel-bid-to-halt-no-deal-brexit-amid-fury-at-pms-enforcer

      With apparently a great deal of power and influence in 10 Downing Street, Dominic Cummings is the personification of the unelected beaurocrats in the EU about whom Vote Leave was founded. Which only demonstrates that ‘taking back control’ was, and still is, just a piece of brainwashing in a figment of PR imagination.

      “Rebel MPs are working on a plan to thwart Boris Johnson pursuing a no-deal Brexit on 31 October that involves forcing parliament to sit through the autumn recess, amid growing outrage about the power and influence of his controversial aide, Dominic Cummings.

      The cross-party group of MPs is looking at legislative options with mounting urgency because of the hardline tactics of Cummings, who one Conservative insider described as running a “reign of terror” in No 10 aimed at achieving Brexit on 31 October at any cost.”

    75. Breeks says:

      For brief perspective…

      The UK has another old Etonian, unelected Prime Minister with colourful history of gaffs, borderline International Incidents, and being sacked for dishonesty. He is a racist, misogynist, far right sociopath who allies himself with the views of Farage, Trump and Steve Bannon.

      He has appointed as Home Secretary an advocate of the Death Penalty, and who has openly expressed her intention to use her office to promote fear an terror to assert her control.

      The UK Government operates a snoopers charter on internet traffic and social media, is up to it’s neck with the Cambridge Analytica scandal where data was harvested for political manipulation, implicated in Dark Money improprieties, with various instances of law breaking being ineffectively regulated by an Electoral Commission.

      The whole UK has no impartial mainstream news or political affairs programming, but instead a propaganda network on a multi billion state budget which routinely spurns Freedom of Information requests and obfuscates complaints.

      The US Holocaust Memorial Museum has a sign depicting the 14 Early Signs of Fascism in 1930’s Nazi Germany.

      1. Continual Nationalism
      2. Disdain for Human Rights.
      3. Sees Enemies as a Unifying cause.
      4. Supremacy of the Military.
      5. Rampant Sexism.
      6. Controlled Mass Media.
      7. Obsession with National Security.
      8. Religion Intertwined with Government.
      9. Corporate Power Protected.
      10. Labour Power Supressed.
      11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts.
      12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment.
      13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption.
      14. Fraudulent Eletions.

      This “Government”, and indeed its “Shadow Government”, are competing to outdo each other to exercise the colonial subjugation of Scotland’s Sovereignty, and deconstruct the democratic process in Scotland by preventing referendums taking place. That constitutes the wilful suppression of democracy and some our own MP’s and MSP’s are not even embarrassed to lobby for it. Think about that.

      This “Government”, and indeed its “Shadow Government”, are competing to outdo each other to undermine the Internationally ratified Peace Treaty of the Good Friday Agreement, and pursue a deliberate and calculated strategy to blame the disruption and consequences onto Europe.

      The UK is not sliding toward Fascism, it is striding purposefully towards it, and is currently mechanically deconstructing the control mechanisms which might contain it.

      Let me repeat those 14 Signs of Fascism in their Scottish Context.

      1. Flags. The deliberate intention to have Union Flags proliferate. Been to the Supermarket?
      2. The UK has been condemned by withering criticism from the UN on lamentable human rights.
      3. Immigrants and foreigners are blamed for the UK’s problems.
      4. The UK is provoking trouble in the Gulf, builds Aircraft Carriers and nukes it cannot afford.
      5. Rampant Sexism… it’s prevalent.
      6. Controlled media. BBC. Say no more.
      7. Obsession National Security. Snoopers Charter.
      8. Religion in Government… Think Orange and the division it creates.
      9. Corporate Power Protected. No explanation required. Look at Scottish CEO appointments.
      10. Labour Power Supressed. Process ongoing since Thatcher.
      11. Disdain for Intellectuals and Arts. Scotland suffers disdain of entire culture.
      12. Obsession Crime and Punishment.. Especially if you’re SNP, guilty or not.
      13. Rampant Corruption & Cronyism. Just look at the Scottish Office.
      14. Fraudulent Elections. Hands up who respects the 2014 result?

      If Scotland doesn’t use Brexit to break the Union, we are heading for some very dark times. The International Community is already alert to this. It watches. We should use their perspective.

      As a final word… Go through that list of 14 again from a Scottish perspective, and it’s clear to see that Scotland is virtually the antithesis of Fascism. The Union of Scotland and England is increasingly an oil and water relationship where the two components are intrinsically incompatible.

    76. manandboy says:

      Kangaroo also said, referring to Pete North’s piece:

      “Exactly, it’s condescending bullshit and a belief in a superior England that knows best.

      There’s so much wrong with it I don’t know where to begin. The ignorance of political cultures other than your own is evident Pete. Stick to what you know about, from your own personal experience, and don’t try and bridge the gap by projecting your own ignorance on to others and then trying to make a coherent case. It simply doesn’t work.

      What Pete thinks of the EU as lacking in democratic legitimacy goes ten times as much for those not living in the home counties. We are ignored and told what to do by people who don’t even live in our neighbourhood. Then we have to pay the bills for their projects like cross Rail, M25, channel tunnel, HS1&2 and new sewers, crikey we even had to pay for the London Olympics. Scotland paid for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games but Birmingham gets a handout from Westminster. F that for a lark, we’re offsky, but we’ll still be good friends and neighbours, hopefully this will be reciprocated.”

      Well done, Kangaroo.

    77. Dorothy Devine says:

      I quite like James O’Brian , but he drivels on in this and shows his ignorance of his ‘beloved ‘Scotland.

      Well done to all those who contributions articulated thoughts so well.

    78. Phronesis says:

      ‘Speaking to reporters before he left Washington, Trump dismissed critics who have suggested that his rhetoric on race and immigration is partly to blame for a rise in hate-inspired violence, such as that in El Paso…His comments came as he left the White House on a day-long trip that risked stoking divisions rather than bringing the country together after the pair of mass shootings…The shooter in El Paso allegedly posted an essay online with language that closely mirrors Trump’s rhetoric, as well as the language of the white nationalist movement, including a warning about the “Hispanic invasion of Texas.”
      Trump and his aides have denied any connection between his rhetoric — he frequently refers to illegal immigration as “an invasion” — and the shootings.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-lashes-out-at-beto-orourke-and-the-media-ahead-of-visits-to-el-paso-and-dayton/2019/08/07/

      ‘As my sufferings mounted I soon realized that there were two ways that I could respond to my situation: either to react with bitterness or seek to transform the suffering into a creative force’.

      Martin Luther King. A testament of hope.

      ‘I have learnt through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy, even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power which can move the world’.

      Mahatma Gandhi http://gandhiashramsevagram.org/gandhi-literature/mahatma-gandhi-collected-works-volume-21.pdf

      We can combat a nationalism that has its roots in racist ideology, class supremacy with a civic nationalism that is rooted in the language and actions of social justice and core humanitarian empathic values. Good individuals can make a difference in the world but a movement of good individuals can change the world.

    79. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says:7 August, 2019 at 9:29 pm:

      ” … More from Murray. A raging wee man. ….
      https://mobile.twitter.com/IanMurrayMP/status/1159074561935253504?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

      Dear me! Now Murray is talking about a Scottish Labour Manifesto. So he imagines a party that doesn’t exist has a manifesto. Then he claims that Boris needs to refer the question of Brexit back to the people as the people have changed their minds and in the same breath states Scots don’t get the chance to change their minds because they voted to remain part of the UK in 2014.

      When I was at school the teacher called those who thought like that as having grasshopper minds.

    80. Ken500 says:

      All Ian Murray cares about is Ian Murray. Like a lot of them. Johnson will not last until October. A GE will bring in the majority SNP. Some kind of anti Brexit Alliance in Westminster. Then another IndyRef. The de coupling will take some time but Scotland will be better off Independent in the EU. What the majority want.

    81. Ottomanboi says:

      Potential nuclear regional war between two British commonwealth states over a country whose citizens have been denied the right to choose freely their future for 70 years.
      Once again the United Nations proves itself useless in such situations and the ‘big powers’ including the EU look away too.
      Those who fancy the UN might intervene on Scotland’s side should the going get tough,….in this world, as a small country, you’re on your own.

    82. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 7 August, 2019 at 10:32 pm

      ” … It’s unfair to attack James O’Brien on the basis of such a short extract. He can’t be expected to share your knowledge.”

      Oh! Come on! O’Brian is well paid to do his job and should prepare for any particular programme. I don’t get paid and it isn’t my job to know what I’m talking about.

      If a plumber, a joiner or an electrician didn’t learn the facts of their job not only would they get the sack but if they made misstates that harmed anyone or caused anyone extra expense they could be prosecuted for working on systems they were not qualified to work on. It is O’Brien’s job to know the facts.

      Broadcasting is full of charlatans, particularly in Scotland, who should not be allowed anywhere near a camera or microphone and what is even worse some of them do know the facts and still lie about them.

      O’Brian is better than most but still leaves a lot to be desired. Note also how quickly he got shot of Rev Stu. Now consider that he could have had his listener figures go through the roof by just discussing Scottish politics a while longer with Stu but made bloody sure he wasn’t going to do that. Why do you think that was the case?

      By the way it was not necessarily O’Brian what cut Stu short. Remember O’Brian has a wee earpiece in his lug and gets instructions, and information, from the team in the control room and id did seem rather as if it was the control room that cut Stu short. Go listen to it again and you will hear what I mean.

      So there is the story about broadcasting – the person phoning in is usually on their own but the presenter has a whole team backing them up all aided by computer search engines to get facts from.

      Just how long do you think it took the control room to check out Stu and Wings then decide to shut Stu down?

    83. Dorothy Devine says:

      To add Mr peffers , the ability to get a wee pal to phone in and splutter ‘but he lives in Bath , he has no right to be supporting independence’

      At least Mr O’Brian squelched that caller.

    84. manandboy says:

      The Union of Scotland and England is a political marriage. It was also an ‘arranged’ marriage – by the English. I’ll stop short at calling it a ‘forced’ marriage. Perhaps ‘bribed’ would be a better term.

      In any event, the Union has rarely been a happy one, and could never be described as a ‘marriage made in heaven’. Made in Hell would be more appropriate. Furthermore, the marriage went downhill quickly, and has stayed there ever since. What has ‘kept the marriage together’ has been an endless stream of empty promises, coupled with a regular application of threats and warnings. Not to labour the point, but Scotland’s Union with England has forever been one of serial abuse by it’s ever growing and bullying English partner. Now some 55 million strong compared to Scotland’s 5 million, the possibility of establishing a true democracy in their relationship never truly existed. Much more could and has been said about the overwhelming one-sided nature of the Union, not least about England coveting Scotland’s mineral inheritance nor it’s deep denial of its many failings of character, nor of it’s superior and contemptuous attitude toward the Scots, but we will not add further to that here.

      The present condition of the political marriage of Scotland and England is now such, that divorce is the only just and reasonable solution, not least because England has undergone such a deterioration in its political perspective, that the two countries are now facing in two completely different directions. That’s how marriages fall apart. This one is no exception.

      The UK population understands perfectly that marriages often fail and that divorce is very often the only and obvious solution. Such widespread familiarity with marriage breakdown is largely why the Westminster Establishment and its media will not discuss the Union using terms like marriage and divorce, because then, Scotland’s desire for Independence would all to easily be understood and accepted everywhere.

      Divorce. It is time.

    85. galamcennalath says:

      Mary Lou McDonald says Sinn Fein can’t stop Brexit

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26UIRVmOR_g

      I sympathise with her view that the English want Brexit and should allowed to get on with it. Her view is Ireland needs to protect herself because England isn’t going to.

      I van understand why the SNP wanted to attempt soften Brexit, however the time has now come to put Scotland first. The English can’t be saved from themselves.

    86. Breeks says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      8 August, 2019 at 8:04 am

      I quite like James O’Brian , but he drivels on in this and shows his ignorance of his ‘beloved ‘Scotland.

      Well done to all those who contributions articulated thoughts so well.

      If I was to wade in to an argument about the London Mayor or Congestion charges, I don’t expect it would take very long before lack of knowledge and detached perspective would reveal itself. I would give James O’Brien full marks for having the courage to walk in where angels fear to tread and go some of the way towards doing the subject justice.

      It might not sound to us like he was doing it justice, but a % of his audience were hearing views they’d never heard before, and some of the beliefs they’d never even had reason to question have suddenly evolved into beliefs they have reason to doubt.

      I suspect even James O’Brien’s own opinions evolved in the same programme.

      Couldn’t we just try getting along better? He seemed to be asking us, but this Brexit themed departure from reason is largely a uniquely “British” and English initiative, foisted upon people who didn’t even think a referendum on Europe was necessary, nevermind the self harming catastrophe of Brexit actually happening.

      That’s what happens when an English supermajority in Westminster forces it’s cumbersome will and self centred perceptions on the wider UK conglomerate. Suddenly Scotland is expected to go along with some rank stupidity that is utterly alien to Scotland’s political landscape, and Scotland weeps because of its toothless capacity to say no.

      Try to get along Mr O’Brien? England is just being England. A supermajority in parliament is just doing what a supermajority does. It squashes the perpetual minority. Don’t take it as a hatred Mr O’Brien, don’t take it personally at all. The Union is simply a game that is always rigged against Scotland, and Brexit is just the final proof that many needed to see it.

      We’re not creating discord and grievance, we’re putting a longstanding incongruous injustice to right, and the world will be a better and more stable place when it’s done.

    87. jfngw says:

      Ian Murray is just another of these sham socialists (pseudo socialist) demanding self determination around the world but against it for their own country. It’s simple really he wants to keep his large salary and hob-nob with who he sees as the big boys in Westminster.

      It has nothing to do with socialism it’s about himself and his political career, he knowns Labour are moribund in Scotland but if he can hold his seat he may still get a juicy job at Westminster if England elects Labour.

      He hates nationalism but will in the end stand behind Boris Johnson as he drags Scotland out of the EU, I’m sure there must be some word that describes a politician that would knowingly harm his own country.

    88. gus1940 says:

      Borisconi’ That’s a good one for future use.

    89. hackalumpoff says:

      More Nana’s links here:
      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    90. kapelmeister says:

      jfngw@9:38

      A name for a politician who willingly harms their own country.

      How about this?

      A patrirot.

    91. I take great comfort in the knowledge that one of LBC’s researchtewam is reading this, and giving feeback to James O’Brien.
      I think that he’ll be surprised by the additional tens of thousands of online listeners his wee chat show has attracted by being featured on Stu Campbell’s excellent WoS Blog.
      May I suggest that it should be required reading for this lad, given his self confessed ignorance of all things Scottish and Irish (and Welsh?) during the programme.
      A couple of things: England does not have a population of 80 million, more like 56 million.
      Govan Scotstoun and Rosyth are NOT building the promised frigates, despite O’Brien taking the fake news intervention as fact.
      James, you constantly intervened ‘Yes, but- ting’ in that louche Thames Estuary drawl, declaring your love for Scotland…Aye, right.
      That’ll make the 260,000 Scottish children living in English Parliament engineered poverty feel a lot better; their bellies will swell with love. Well, your love and a dime gets you on the ‘bus?
      WE are asking no one’s ‘permission’.
      The S30 smokescreen, the continuing lie that we Scots citizens need your permission (as an Englishman) to return to Self Determination is just the usual Imperialist nonsense that is fed to us through the Dead Tree Scrolls and the broadcasters, especially, but not exclusively, the BBC.
      I had a wee laugh when you mused that their would not be the appetite for Independence if Gordon Brown or Ken Clark were PM.
      Jeez, you seriously need to research the politics of the last half century, James.
      Brown is a laughing stock Up Here.
      Old Ken was one of Maggie’s Hit Men.
      There shall be a plebiscite. We will prevail.
      Anyone wanting to move to Free Scotland is welcome.
      We’re going to need skilled folk when Nissan Toyota Jaguar Land Rover and Vauxhall open factories Up Here.

      Self Determination is natural, James.
      I’ll quote a line from Burns: you can Google the whole poem.
      ” It’s comin’ yet for a’ that.’
      You can’t get more ‘international’ than our Bard.

    92. Lenny Hartley says:

      Seen this snippet in the Daily Heilagraph , behind a paywall so cant read the rest of ut, this wee bit was enough !!
      Quote
      This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

      Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to…

      Unquote
      What feckin planet does the author live in?

    93. kapelmeister says:

      a referendum is not for division

      a referendum is for decision

    94. Capella says:

      Brilliant summary of the signing of the tragedy of the Treaty from an 1880 account:

      https://twitter.com/FlikeNoir/status/933869022776561664?s=20

    95. Cubby says:

      Brilliant posts this morning.

      In particular Jack Collatin, Breeks, manandboy,Robert Peffers,geeo and confused.

    96. Breeks says:

      Wee question for Ian Murray… As the UK slides towards fascism, why is he content to be in the vanguard of those constructively dismantling democracy in Scotland? Are you being made to do that Mr Murray? Are you under duress to advocate closing down democratic processes? Do you consider yourself an elected MP first and Fascist second, or vice versa?

      When your own tenure in office expires, do you intend to stand for reelection, or put an armed guard at the gate and oppose fresh elections indefinitely as other tin pot dictators are prone to do?

      Part time democrat, part time dictator, which wolf is being fed?

    97. Proud Cybernat says:

      Time for you to come up the road, Rev. There’s some English bloke in Wimbledon who thinks he pays for you to live in Bath.

      [Smacks head off table].

    98. galamcennalath says:

      kapelmeister says:

      a referendum is not for division

      a referendum is for decision

      That SHOULD be the case. However we’ve had two referendums which have failed to deliver clear and understood decisions.

      In both the cases of IndyRef1 and EURef, the winning option was won on the basis of a load of woolly bollocks which was never intended to be, or could not be, delivered.

      A referendum should be about a clearly defined change option versus a no-change/status quo option. Neither of the recent ones offered that. Folks are still arguing what Leave meant. By voting day for IndyRef1 the NO option certainly wasn’t being promoted as status quo!

      Badly run referendums mean the winners are pleased, but the losers question the legitimacy of result and are left looking for a rerun.

    99. Capella says:

      That historical account of the signing of the Treaty I linked to above 10.23 is from the website Random Scottish History a Pre-1900 Book Collection of Scottish Literature, History, Art & Folklore.

      https://randomscottishhistory.com

    100. kapelmeister says:

      A couple of months ago Scottish Labour came fifth in the Euro elections with 9% of the vote and they didn’t win a seat.
      Yet Richard Leonard and Ian Murray took that as an emphatic endorsement of Labour’s opposition to an indyref.

    101. Petra says:

      Excellent post Breeks (7:56am). Boris Johnston has surrounded himself with bunch of lackeys that mirror himself, his far right beliefs, however the most chilling of all (other than Dominic Cummings) must be Priti Patel who is now in charge of the Home Office.

      ‘Priti Patel, Who Lobbied for UK Aid to Israel, Appointed Home Secretary by Boris Johnson.’

      …”Priti Patel is a politician with a consistent record of voting against basic human rights protections. For her to be put in charge of the Home Office is extremely concerning,” Clare Collier, advocacy director at the human rights group Liberty told the Guardian Thursday….

      Many responded with shock at the appointment, Guardian and Al-Jazeera contributor Hicham Yezza said: “Priti Patel — fired for endangering UK national security through rogue meetings with a foreign power and lying to the Prime Minister about it — has been made Home Secretary, in charge of … UK national security. Even by Boris Johnson’s abysmal standards this is utterly shocking.”…..

      http://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Priti-Patel-Who-Lobbied-for-UK-Aid-to-Israel-Appointed-Home-Secretary-by-Boris-Johnson-20190725-0002.html

      …………………………….

      ‘Home Secretary.’

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Secretary

      ……………………………..

      ‘Hitler Cabinet.’

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Cabinet

    102. Petra says:

      Where’s the Queen when you need her, lol?

      Dominic Grieve:- “The Queen would have to sack him.”

      https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1158811178212175873

    103. Mike R says:

      OT but an absolute cracker of a long letter by L McGregor in the National today

    104. Dorothy Devine says:

      And a great one by a teacher too!

      As a teacher I have to give the lady a round of heartfelt applause!

    105. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @Confused

      The kikes have open contempt for the guffies? That must be like being told to fuck off by Ebola.

    106. Petra says:

      ‘Dominic Cummings, the latest self-appointed genius to run 10 Downing Street, is the most deluded of them all.’

      …..”Cummings is merely the latest in a long line of geniuses to run things for the Conservatives in 10 Downing Street. First there was Andy Coulson, whose genius took him to prison.”…

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson-vote-leave-nigel-farage-a9045766.html

      ……………….

      Oh well I see that some of Nana’s links that I tried to post previously haven’t appeared. It would be great, if when you visit her site, if you could repost the link / s on here, folks. Thanks.

      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    107. Petra says:

      Taken from Nana’s links:-

      Martin J Keatings:-”So John McDonnell MP has said labour would be open to allowing a second referendum. There are several points I would make on that front.”

      ”It is not the purview of any Westminster politician to dictate when Scotland has a vote on the constitutional question. While the matter may be reserved in terms of constitution, UK law is SUBORDINATE to international law and to international treaties.

      So important is the right to self-determination the the United Nations made it the first paragraph of the first article in the first part of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ratified by resolution 2200A (XXI) of 16 December 1966 under article 49.”..

      https://twitter.com/MJKIndependent/status/1158989973305139200

    108. Petra says:

      From Nana’s links.

      Professor John Robertson:- ”With North Sea revenues apportioned on a population basis, all four areas have relatively stable shares. For England up until 2014-15 the range was 86.1% to 86.7%; for Wales it was 3.4% to 3.7%; for Scotland it was 7.7% to 8.1%; and for Northern Ireland it was 2.1% to 2.3%.”..

      The above is from:
      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/803472/Disaggregated_tax_and_NICs_receipts_-_information_and_analysis.pdf

      Do I correctly understand this to reveal the extent to which Scottish oil subsidises the rest of the UK?

      https://twitter.com/ProfJWR/status/1159140344891662336

    109. Legerwood says:

      Labour and indyref2

      From the Herald online just now: Labour would block a Yes/No question in indyref2. They want multiple choice according to Mr Sweeney.

      From the article:

      “”A LABOUR government at Westminster would block a straight Yes/No question in a second independence referendum, it has emerged.

      “”Shadow Scottish minister Paul Sweeney said there should be a multiple-choice question instead, with a federal United Kingdom as one of the options.

      “”The Glasgow North East MP told BBC Radio Scotland a Labour government would deliver “a radical transformation and federate the United Kingdom”.

      “”He said: “That of course should be a question in that referendum in future. It shouldn’t just be a binary referendum, and we’ll be backing that option.” “””
      …..

    110. Dr Jim says:

      If the *British* Labour party have now realised they don’t need the Scottish branch office to win general elections and they know that Labour in Scotland can’t beat the SNP why would they consider anything they have to say

      So knowing this, people like Richard Leonard Ian Murray and Paul Sweeney go into panic mode because no Labour in Scotland means no job in Scotland or Westminster for anybody from Labour in Scotland

      The best hope for the main office of Labour in England is to cross their fingers and hope to do deals with the party in Scotland who win and that’s the SNP, that’s why Ian Murray is producing his convoluted mathematics on parliamentary numbers involving the SNP who he claims were responsible for voting against Labour in the past thereby ushering in Margaret Thatchers Tory government which is a fabricated piece of nonsense debunked many times on this site and by Labour politicians themselves

      The only people Ian Murray will convince with this rubbish are those who want to be convinced, but his own party know it’s balderdash and that’s why Labour in Scotland are in the process of being dumped as a lost cause

      The person who will lose most from this Labour decision is Ruth Davidson because she will no longer have a willing ally to help her co-ordinate her attacks on the SNP, Ruth Davidson will be left with the Liberal Democrats who she knows can’t be trusted or relied on to help her because the Liberal Democrats are at heart Tories just like her and their ambition is to move up a slot in the pecking order in Scotland to replace her party in Scotland, so the Labour decision to abandon Scotland is a good break for Willie Rennie and his little band of Bouncy Castle jumpers

      Watch over the coming weeks for the cracks beginning to appear in the ranks of Labour in Holyrood as the jockeying for positions reveal themselves, Neil (the enforcer) Findlay saw it coming and did a runner, and oh how he hates the SNP even more for a decision that he made himself because of his own ineptitude

      The idiot always perceives the competent as the smart alec and unfortunately for Labour the SNP is full of competence

      The more denigrating trash talking the opponent does the less confident they are in their own position

      We see it now in England with the rebooting of the Nicola Sturgeon thief advertising campaign aimed at the deluded uninformed English voter, well they’ve got to get some xenophobic hatred going rather than the truth haven’t they

      Nigel Farage will be so proud of them

    111. galamcennalath says:

      If there’s no vote of no confidence in September, Johnson will almost certainly proceed to a cliff jump Brexit.

      If there is a vote, and Johnson survives, he will proceed to the cliff.

      If there is a vote, and Johnson loses, two scenarios are possible …

      i) an alternative government might be formed within 14days. This is highly unlikely to be a Corbyn led Labour one – they don’t have the numbers. It could be a caretaker government of national unity. This will seek a Brexit extension from the EU and call a general election before then.

      ii) Johnson clings on long enough to call an election after his cliff jump Brexit

      However, what about a general election before October 31st? Labour want one but Johnson can probably avoid it and cling on. Especially because Labour don’t seem keen on a government of national unity because Corbyn wouldn’t lead it.

      Any other possible outcomes?

    112. chicmac says:

      I think the only real chance of hard brexit being avoided now is if a GNU took charge of the situation but Corbyn would never agree to that willingly.

      A ‘no hard brexit’ GNU would only have a chance of flying with joint leadership. Corbyn, Swinson and sensible Con remainer e.g. Ken Clarke. In a sane world Sturgeon would also be on board but the ‘Carthage must be destroyed’ mantra of Westminster has always been ‘Scotland will have no say in anything, ever.

      Thanks fopr Nana’s Links website url Petra. Now on my favourites bar.

    113. Petra says:

      From Nana’s links.

      Unbelievable – plus his English accent just gets on my wick:-

      ”What happens when you ask Tory group leader and Holyrood candidate Tim Eagle if he supports Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s no deal Brexit plan. Watch and find out.”

      https://twitter.com/moraysnp/status/1159168007656136704

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      You just cannot get even the most basic and logical arguments across to some people. Here we have a prime example@-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrLykMVLl_E

      Here Indycar Gordon Ross almost gets it right but fails at the first hurdle. His subject in this video is Sovereignty and he has the right idea but fails to clearly make the case by describing the United Kingdom as a union of two countries.

      Factually, “The United Kingdom”, is very obviously not a union of countries. As it’s title clearly describes it as a united kingdom, that is a union of kingdoms. Which brings up the also very clear fact that if you unite two kingdoms the total will be a bigger kingdom and in no can it be a country.

      The proof of the pudding being the signatories on the document are two kingdoms and one of those signatory kingdoms was originally composed of the three countries that made up the Kingdom, (not the country), of England. Now it is composed of two countries and part of another country that was politically partitioned and remains a partitioned country today.

      And that is where the problem of legal sovereignty begins and where it ends. Until 1688 and the English, “Glorious Revolution”, when the parliamentarians of the Kingdom of England rebelled and deposed their legal sovereign monarchy, the rule of law of the three country Kingdom of England was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, by which the sovereign monarch’s word was law and thus the monarch was legally believed to be chosen by God and thus sovereign.

      The Glorious Revolution changed this but only slightly for it legally kept the monarch as legally sovereign but being forced to legally delegate their Divine Right of Kings to the parliament of England.

      In Scotland the legal situation was very different and it still is. At least 368 years before the English Glorious Revolution the laws of sovereignty in the Kingdom of Scotland had changed forever in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath. The declaration not only declared that Scotland was an independent kingdom but it claimed that under Scots law the people of Scotland were legally sovereign and not either the crown or the Scots Parliament.

      This, of course, did not change the claimed law of Scotland but it was then internationally recognised as legal by the then international authority of the Holy Roman See.

      So, in 1706/7, when the Treaty of Union was signed by the two kingdoms, they had a problem in regards to sovereignty. The two different legal sovereignties were totally incompatible and without some form of compromise there could not be a union but only one or other of the two kingdoms colonising the other kingdom.

      A compromise was reached and an article of union, (each article of union is a legal requirement in its own right), stipulates that the two legal systems must remain independent of the other forever.

      So there you have the truth and that legal requirement still exists today. In the English Kingdom, (three countries), the monarch of England is legally sovereign but must legally delegate their Sovereignty, (divine right of kings), to the parliament of England. In Scotland neither the crown nor the parliament is sovereign because the people are.

      Now here is the hard facts ignored by the Westminster Parliament of, The United Kingdom”.

      On 30 April 1707 the English Parliament went into permanent recess and this is recorded in Hansard. There has been no parliament of England ever since – Westminster is the two kingdom United Kingdom Parliament.

      In Scotland the old Scots parliament only was prorogued and was reconvened as Holyrood and the People of Scotland are still legally sovereign but there is no parliament of England so on 30April 1707 there could be no legal Parliament of England for the English monarchy to delegate their divine right of kings to.

      Thus, if a majority of the people of Scotland decide to end the international treaty of the United Kingdom they legally can do so without anyone’s permission but their own.

      Please remember the Treaty of Union is NOT a union of countries it is a bipartite union of Kingdoms.

    115. Petra says:

      Ian Dunt:- ”Remainers pointed this out ad nauseum after the referendum but were ignored. If you unilaterally drop your tariffs *before* a trade deal, other countries have got what they want without having to reciprocate.”

      Andrea Leadsom getting telt by Pascal Lamy.

      ”Former WTO chief, Pascal Lamy, 6 June 2016: “Free trade is about negotiations. What will you negotiate? What will you offer to the people you negotiate with? Your policy is zero tariffs. If they have free access to your market, they’re not going to give you anything.”

      https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1159099113344032770

      From Nana’s links.

    116. galamcennalath says:

      Legerwood says:

      From the article:

      “A LABOUR government at Westminster would …. “

      And that is something we won’t be seeing anytime soon!

      England is now firmly wedded to the right, which is further exaggerated by their FPTP system.

      Labour would be in with a chance if they had credible and distinctive policies of their own. That doesn’t look like changing.

    117. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@12.09pm

      “If there is a vote and Johnston survives”

      There is a very good chance he will survive as Brexit supporting labour MPs vote with him.

    118. Arthur C says:

      @ Petra
      I think you are giving yourself a lot of unnecessary work copying and pasting Nana’s links on here.
      All people have to do is copy the link provided by Hackalumpoff and add it to their favourites.
      I did that when it started and it hasn’t changed since. I don’t have to wait for Hacklumpoff’s daily post, as I can just click the link whenever I wish and peruse the fruits of Nana’s labours at my leisure.

    119. admiral says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/08/millions-waiting-for-nhs-operations-in-england-the-highest-total-on-record

      I wonder how long it will take BBC Scotland, Rooth the Mooth, Tricky dicky, wee Willie et al to start screeching and squawking about this…

      Not holding my breath.

    120. Dr Jim says:

      @Petra

      If Tory supporters believe emptying the bins is all that local councils do why do they think they have to vote for them, unless they believe that Tories are more proficient in positions pertaining to refuse

      I can’t help myself Hee hee

    121. call me dave says:

      But!…but a smiling Cameron ruled out a multi question referendum in the ‘three shell game shuffle’ with Salmond way back then and later said oops! and then… F**k!

      Now it’s become a thing again…for the Unionist smoke and mirror “don’t look over there” tactics in the last chance saloon. 🙂

      PS:
      Radio 5 this morning kinda wakes up to Dominic Cummings as the master of the dark arts. 🙂

    122. Capella says:

      Someone is busy revising our history on Wikipedia – removing negative facts about the Union e.g. the English Parliament’s actions against the Darien expedition.

      https://twitter.com/wordamentalist/status/1159368738455642112?s=20

    123. galamcennalath says:

      Cubby says:

      There is a very good chance he will survive as Brexit supporting labour MPs vote with him.

      Indeed, there are some Labour MPs who subscribe to Johnson’s ‘any Brexit will do’ approach.

      Most Tories will back Johnson.

      If MPs don’t/can’t stop a cliff jump on the 31st October, then so be it. Scotland has a plan A.

    124. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@12.16pm

      You have the patience of a saint.

      “Please remember the Treaty of Union is not a Union of countries it is a bipartite union of Kingdoms”

      I mean, how hard is it for people to grasp this information and retain it.

    125. Dr Jim says:

      Today Willie Rennie talks about *Scotland’s place in *our* country*

      Which country is Willie in then because I don’t think the Welsh or the Irish would consider themselves as parts of some other country much less we Scots

      4 countries Willie, pick one! or better yet tell the truth

    126. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      Someone is busy revising our history on Wikipedia

      Wiki is a bit of a snake pit at times. It seems the right, worldwide, get free range to apply bias to articles. Often it’s by omission.

      An interesting one I came across the other day was on this page …

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Conservative_Party_(UK)

      … there is absolutely no mention of the fact that for most of the 20thC the Conservatives only stood in England and Wales. It was their allies, the Scottish Unionists and smaller National Liberals, who stood in Scotland. They all merged into the modern UK Conservatives in 1965.

      Why is that significant information missing? It looks to me as if ‘inconvenient’ history has been intentionally omitted.

      Elsewhere in Wiki it is covered, however the main UK history page is deficient.

    127. jfngw says:

      I see Willie Rennie is so desperate for some recognition down south (do unionist politicians dream of ermine gowns, a Blade Runner remake for Scotland (Flayed Bummer)), he is willing to say his country is the UK, a fictitious country similar to Shangri-La. It’s good to see the LibDem’s so in line with the ex Scottish Secretary, Scotland was extinguished, line.

    128. Ottomanboi says:

      People who protest that they love country X may well be loving the invented country of their mind.
      Greece, France, Scotland etc wonderful, but the people are simply clueless.
      If the English leave an element of the anti in their wake it is likely a result of a close contact of the negative kind. The world is not all the Best Exotic Marigold Hotel.

    129. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      R2 there. Record number of people waiting for NHS operations in England and Wales.

      Nicola Sturgeon must resign.

    130. Dr Jim says:

      Anna Burnside rubbishes the National newspaper for publicising the Ashcroft Poll on Independence then praises the BBC for not reporting the poll, then complains that nobody praised the Daily Record for publishing the results of the poll

      She must have sore feet with all that jumping around, of course she does work for the Daily Record who pay her and she does appear on the BBC who pay her

      She doesn’t appear in the National newspaper, so they don’t pay her

    131. PictAtRandom says:

      So I see that Labour now want a multi-option referendum including federalism. It assumes someone is going to federate with us. Is it England, East Anglia, West Mercia…?

      And where do we go if the vote is:

      Indie 45%
      Federalism 15%
      Ein Reich (Kein Holyrood) 20%
      Leave It, My Brain Hurts 20% ?

    132. Bobp says:

      Proud cybernat 1.01pm. My sister had to wait only 4 mnths for a hip op on the SNHS. I have a welsh friend in aberdare who is waiting (one cancellation already) over 16 mnths for a knee op. Mind you after years of being a liebor voter he now votes PC.

    133. Dr Jim says:

      Stuart Cosgrove making more twists and turns than an ordinance survey map as he attempts to appease the BBC while at the same time attemting to tell them they’re wrong without losing his job

      It’s a bad state of affairs in Scotland when so called *journalists* are instructed to write create invent stories that reflect the SNP Scottish government as dictatorial by a BBC who will threaten your employment if you don’t

      Not to worry BBC Scotland the Scottish people fully understand and appreciate the lengths that are gone to to be completely unimpartial

      Malarkey and Malpractice are just a couple of definitions

    134. Famous15 says:

      Ode to Richard Leonard From a Former Labour Supporter!

      “It’s self determination for me.
      It’s self determination for me.
      If your no a self determinant,
      Your nae use tae me.”

      Sung to the tune of,oh any bliddy thing.

    135. Macart says:

      Quite enjoy Mr O’Brien’s work generally. But his perception of the UK, of Britain, as ‘A’ country? Jinkies!

    136. Petra says:

      @ Arthur C says at 12:28 pm ….”Petra I think you are giving yourself a lot of unnecessary work copying and pasting Nana’s links on here. All people have to do is copy the link provided by Hackalumpoff and add it to their favourites. I did that when it started and it hasn’t changed since. I don’t have to wait for Hacklumpoff’s daily post, as I can just click the link whenever I wish and peruse the fruits of Nana’s labours at my leisure.”

      You might be right Arthur but what I’m hoping to do is to encourage others to go onto Nana’s site and bring some (all) of the data on to this site. They say that 300,000 people visit this site and no doubt some of them are newcomers. Maybe even prior No voters / sitting on the fencers? The very people that we want to convert. How many of them may overlook, miss, Nana’s site / invaluable information altogether? There’s also the possibility that when the information is on this site it will go on to generate debate. Something that we can’t do on Nana’s site. I’ve got some extra time on my hands this week and next and then I’m going to be up to my eyes in it, so won’t have the same time to visit or comment. I’m hoping that, in the very near future (within the next couple of weeks, lol), not only will people add Nana’s site to their favourites, and ”peruse the fruits of Nana’s labour at their leisure”, but disseminate the information far and wide by reposting the links on here.

    137. Mac says:

      Raab’s visit to Canada, intended to demonstrate to Britain that there ARE other trade options. (No doubt the visit was the resident SPIN expert’s idea)

      Meantime, Canada says Naw!! They’d rather deal with the EU and Scotland.

      https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-dont-expect-closer-ties-between-britain-and-canada-any-time-soon/

      https://twitter.com/LiquidFaerie/status/1159011414767493120

    138. Macart says:

      @ Petra

      Good to know Nana’s still around. Missed quite a lot recently and have wondered where Nana was for the past few days.

      Wasn’t worried mind… 😎

    139. Jack Murphy says:

      OFF-TOPIC My Thought for the Day.

      BBC TV Flagship News at 6 and 10pm:
      “And now over to our Scotland Correspondent Sarah Smith”.

      I’m waiting for BBC TV Flagship News Reporting Scotland at 6:30 and 10:30pm saying,:”And now over to our England Correspondent Joe Bloggs”.

      Scotland expects…

    140. Doug says:

      Hypocritical British nationalists are getting more and more desperate. They’ve stopped even attempting to put forward arguments that have a smidgen of logic to them.

      Lying British nationalist politicians and media are so delusional it’s reasonable to assume they collectively suffer from seriously poor mental health.

    141. PictAtRandom says:

      Good news for Fifers. Levenmouth line to reopen.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49279810

      Look forward to more of this sort of thing after indie.

    142. ScotsRenewables says:

      I can open Nana’s Links to comments if Nana wants, but this is a more established forum.

    143. call me dave says:

      @PictAtRandom

      Yes indeedy! A 4yr to 5 yr project though. 🙂

      PS:
      Jings!

      Wullie Rennie, where have you been hiding, ruining oor country.
      Jo must have given him the nod.

    144. manandboy says:

      IS WILLIE RENNIE AS THICK AS THEY SAY

      “… why Scotland’s place in our country
      should never be a subsidiary part of a deal
      to get the keys to Downing Street.”

      https://t.co/Or6jYiXrji

    145. manandboy says:

      Just caught your comment, DrJim, my apologies.

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the Foreign Secretary, Priti Patel. I’m pretty sure she is aflicted with both right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation. In other words, she appears to be a bit of a fascist, and so is ideally suited to this cabinet.

      Social Dominance Orientation and Right?Wing Authoritarianism: Additive and Interactive Effects on Political Conservatism

      Abstract

      It is commonly accepted that social dominance orientation (SDO) and right-wing authoritarianism (RWA) are potent unique predictors of a variety of prejudice and prejudice-related constructs. However, contrary to some predictions, there has been little evidence that these constructs interact to produce this outcome – they appear to be additive but not interactive in their prediction of prejudice.

      We extend the interaction hypothesis to consideration of another broadly relevant construct – political ideology. Drawing from 14 independent New Zealand-based samples, we show, through meta-analysis and multilevel random coefficient modelling, that SDO and RWA additively and interactively predict levels of political conservatism operationalised in a variety of ways. Specifically, both constructs are associated with increasing political conservatism, and the lowest levels of conservatism (or highest levels of political liberalism) are found in those lowest in both SDO and RWA.
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2012.00929.x

    147. Colin Alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers, I am flogging a deid horse here but, thought it might interest you what has been written:

      From EU Ombudsman: “I am writing in reply to your e-mail.. in which you complained to the European Ombudsman that (i) the Government of the United Kingdom unlawfully triggered Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union as Scottish people have not voted to leave the European Union, and that (ii) the European Commission overlooked Scotland’s position in the withdrawal process negotiations with the United Kingdom. On the basis of the information you provided, we further understand that you have submitted an infringement complaint to the European Commission in relation to this matter.

      I am sorry to have to inform you that the European Ombudsman cannot deal with your complaint. This is because it concerns an issue that is not within her mandate.

      Article 228 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that the European Ombudsman can investigate only complaints that concern the administrative work of the European Union’s institutions and bodies, for instance the European Commission and European Union agencies.

      In line with Article 2.1 of the European Ombudsman’s Statute, the Ombudsman cannot look into complaints about other authorities or persons, such as the Government of the United Kingdom.

      Please also note that, in line with Article 2.2 of the European Ombudsman’s Statute, the Ombudsman cannot investigate complaints that concern the political activities of an European Union’s institution or body.

      While you may be disappointed that we cannot deal with your complaint, I am sure you will understand that the Ombudsman can act only in line with the legislation governing her office¹.”

      My reply: “Thank you for your response. I do apologise if my letter did not make the position clear. My complaint is not just about the UK member state; it also involves the EU Commission, so I respectfully put it to you that my complaint is within the remit of the Ombudsman as it does involve the EU Commission.

      I have made a clear complaint that the UK did NOT trigger Article 50 in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. So, the EU Commission erred in law and not in accordance with the Lisbon Treaty when it mistakenly accepted that the UK acted in accordance with Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon.

      I have challenged the legality and procedural validity of the EU Commission accepting Article 50 as having been activated by the UK Government in accordance with UK constitutional requirements.

      I have laid out a clear legal argument that Scotland’s people constitutionally remain sovereign within the UK constitution. Scotland is now an equal partner of the United Kingdom. Scotland’s sovereign people did not give consent for the UK to trigger Article 50.

      Yet, the UK Government and EU Commission have simply ignored this and acted as if UK Parliament is sovereign, based on an English tradition of the monarch of England being sovereign in English law and giving Parliament sovereignty.

      Scotland has a separate and internationally respected legal system called Scots Law. In Scots Law according to our constitutional law, the people of Scotland are sovereign, not Parliament and not the monarch.

      My complaint should have triggered a full and proper examination by the EU Commission about the arguments I have made about Scottish sovereignty requiring the consent of the people of Scotland for Article 50 to be lawfully triggered. That, as the people of Scotland continue to have sovereign power in law, for the UK to have lawfully triggered Article 50 in accordance with its constitutional law, it required the consent of the people of Scotland. But UK Government has failed to obtain the consent of the people of Scotland, simply ignoring Scottish sovereignty, so the UK has acted unconstitutionally.

      The EU Commission failed to give due consideration and examination of this aspect of my complaint, it simply avoided it.

      Thus, I politely request that the Ombudsman deals with my complaint against the EU Commission, that the EU Commission failed to give proper examination into my complaint that the UK Government / UK Member State acted unconstitutionally, so their Article 50 application should be suspended until this legal and procedural issue has been settled.

    148. Dr Jim says:

      @manandboy

      No worries it’s cool

    149. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@8.38am

      As I have now listened to the whole extract of the O’Brien show I would declare that on balance I agree with your point that he should be better informed about Scotland and Wales. After all the show is called Leading BRITAINS Conversation not Leading England’s conversation.

      He seemed pretty representative of the vast majority in England who basically never give a thought to Scotland/Wales/N. Ireland or the Union and just think of the UK as being England. The only exceptions being if someone suggests going on holiday to Scot/Wales/N.Ireland or if there are relations or if a job turns up. It’s not really surprising as the British media only covers England for the most part.

      That’s why you get statements like: the UK is an island; England is an island etc etc.

    150. Liz g says:

      Scots Renewables
      Do you go to the Wings social nights and or the Wings stall at any of the gatherings?…. And how tec savvy are you?…
      Sorry to sound so mysterious I just have a bit of an idea I don’t want to post about!!! 🙂
      And if you’re Nana Approved I reckon you’ll do 🙂

    151. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, so she’s Home Secretary, but here’s some detail of the kinds of impact right-wing authoritarianism and social dominance orientation (see the Home Secretary), can have on an individual’s rational judgement. Subsequently, this government does not look as if it will help Scotland’s drugs problem. Just the opposite, frankly. Full text.

      Social Dominance Orientation, Right-Wing Authoritarianism, and Willingness to Help Addicted Individuals: The Role of Responsibility Judgments

      Abstract

      We investigated how Social Dominance Orientation (SDO) and Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) were related to motivation to personally help addicted individuals and approval of public spending on addiction treatment. The study employs an attributional analysis based on Weiner’s theory of social motivation.

      SDO was associated with less approval of public spending on treatment and lower motivation to personally help. RWA was associated with less approval of public spending but exerted a direct positive effect on motivation to personally help. However, the latter effect was cancelled out by an indirect negative effect from an attributional process where addicted individuals were perceived as more responsible for their condition.

      An association between RWA and judgments of responsibility was further indicated in an investigation of positive vs. negative outcomes of addictions. RWA correlated with ratings of personal responsibility across the valence of outcomes, whereas SDO did not. In conclusion, the relation between RWA and (lack of) motivation to help is partly explained by a greater emphasis on personal responsibility, and the relation between SDO and (lack of) motivation to help is independent of responsibility judgments.

      Keywords:
      Social Dominance Orientation, Right-Wing Authoritarianism, attribution, addiction, helping

      https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/669/564

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      Want to better understand this cabinet and the direction of political travel that Britain is taking?

      Right-Wing Authoritarianism and Social Dominance Orientation Differentially Moderate Intergroup Effects on Prejudice
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229911425_Right-Wing_Authoritarianism_and_Social_Dominance_Orientation_Differentially_Moderate_Intergroup_Effects_on_Prejudice

    153. CameronB Brodie says:

      The full-English Brexit is an expression of collective narcissism and xenophobic, authoritarian, English nationalism. Fact.

      Collective Narcissism and Its Social Consequences

      Abstract

      This article introduces the concept of collective narcissism – an emotional investment in an unrealistic belief about the in group’s greatness – aiming to explain how feelings about an ingroup shape a tendency to aggress against outgroups. The results of 5 studies indicate that collective, but not individual, narcissism predicts intergroup aggressiveness.

      Collective narcissism is related to high private and low public collective self-esteem and low implicit group esteem. It predicts perceived threat from outgroups, unwillingness to forgive outgroups, preference for military aggression over and above social dominance orientation, right-wing authoritarianism, and blind patriotism. The relationship between collective narcissism and aggressiveness is mediated by perceived threat from outgroups and perceived insult to the ingroup.

      In sum, the results indicate that collective narcissism is a form of high but ambivalent group esteem related to sensitivity to threats to the ingroup’s image and retaliatory aggression.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40455337_Collective_Narcissism_and_Its_Social_Consequences

    154. manandboy says:

      Independence

      This waiting is an ordeal. Best get active! Best in fact to think of Independence as an ‘already’ which will have an ‘official beginning’, but which will not be a ‘start’. We’ve had the start, in 2012, when the campaign for Indy14 begun. Remember? The Awakening?

    155. Hackalumpoff says:

      @Liz g at 3:24 pm
      If you use Nana’s contact page here https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/
      She will forward your email address to ScotsRenewables.
      No need to say what your idea is just say in the contacts box please fwd to ScotsRenewables.

    156. manandboy says:

      There are many, many ways of ‘getting’ or just ‘being’ lost. My sense of things as they stand in the England part of the UK, is that a state of being ‘lost’ has overtaken the Ruling Class, as well as large numbers of those eligible to vote.

      It is arguable then, that we are all lost, unless we plan to do something else, and not just follow meekly behind those who are meant to be governing.

      In the meantime, the EU is at a loss as to what to do about ‘the UK’. Hopefully, the Scottish government is not.

    157. Liz g says:

      Hackalumpoff @ 4.12
      Thanks Norman….. Will do later this evening!
      I need to pop out just now

    158. sinky says:

      Contrast what former Labour First Minister of Wales said this week to the scaremongering “Scottish” Labour leadership.

      Carwyn Jones said: “We are not too poor to be independent, no.”
      Many other countries are in the red… that is not unusual,” Mr Jones said.

      But Mr Jones warned if the country did go it alone, the economy would not be “transformed overnight”, pointing to the years of economic troubles Ireland suffered before thriving.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-49262565

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @manandboy says: 8 August, 2019 at 8:56 am:

      ” … The Union of Scotland and England is a political marriage. It was also an ‘arranged’ marriage – by the English. I’ll stop short at calling it a ‘forced’ marriage. Perhaps ‘bribed’ would be a better term.”

      Sorry to dissolution you, manandboy, but it most certainly was a forced marriage. First there was the English Navigation Acts that even although Scotland and England shared a monarch were applied to Scotland. Then England threatened to declare Scots as Aliens and unable to do business in England and the English Navigation Acts led to the Darien Expedition which was set up by William Patterson, the same London Scot responsible for the scheme that led to the Bank of England.

      He set up the Scottish Land owners to bankrupt them and leave them open to bribery and his friend and English spy Daniel Defoe who was working with him in Edinburgh. Not to mention that on the lead up to the Treaty of Union the English army was massed along the Scottish/English border and the English fleet were lying off the Firth of Forth.

      The Treaty of Union was most certainly a forced marriage.

    160. dakk says:

      Robert Peffers
      ‘The Treaty of Union was most certainly a forced marriage.’

      Has always felt a bit more like gang r**e to me I’m afraid.

    161. galamcennalath says:

      When did you last here a positive argument for Scotland staying in union with England?

      Can’t remember? Me neither!

      For years now all pro Union arguments fall into two style …

      1) London won’t let you leave. You’ve had your chance now you are shackled for decades. Your democratic rights only apply when you vote the way London wants you to.

      2) This bad thing, or that bad thing, will befall you if you are independent. The EU won’t have you. You’ll be broke. You won’t get the oil. England won’t trade with you.

      This is completely undemocratic, unstable and unsustainable. It can’t last.

      It would be hilarious, if it weren’t serious!

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      @kapelmeister says:8 August, 2019 at 10:21 am:

      ” … a referendum is not for division
      a referendum is for decision.”

      Whatever message these idiots imagine they are sending with their bleating’s about the divisiveness of the referendum all their message does is mark them out as idiots, (are you listening Wee Willie Rennie).

      The whole concept of democracy is built solidly upon division. We vote for different parties to form a government and the membership of the various political parties vote to chose a leader from several candidates. That is division.

      When the party in power is chosen by the electorate dividing and selecting a winner the parliament divides into the government and the opposition and they get down to the business, (or rather they are supposed to get down to that business), but how do they conduct that business?

      They divide into those who support motions and those who oppose motions and after they argue about it they call, would you believe, a division and they divide up and troop through the division lobbies.

      The whole bloody system of government is based upon democracy and democracy is based 100% upon divisiveness. Have these congenital idiots any idea how much hilarity they engender every time the bleat about referendums being divisive? They latch onto a word or phrase they do not comprehend and imagine themselves so clever.

      In the meantime everyone else is kinked with laughter, but the really funny thing is that until now, when we are getting fed up with the joke, no one has told them how stupid they are.

      They have said it on TV, radio, the internet and had it published in the dead tree press and to date no one has told them how stupid they are because the entire idea of democracy is 100% based upon the idea of division of people for and against proposals. So just what are they doing in politics if they haven’t been being divisive?

      Oh! Wait up! There is always abstention – but, of course if everyone abstains, nothing ever gets done.

    163. Proud Cybernat says:

      Will they still love us when we walk out?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG6ttqzms6U&feature=youtu.be

      Do we care anymore?

    164. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s some social and political psychology, for those who like to understand the world around them and the political forces shaping contemporary British nationalism. Full text

      Investigating Right Wing Authoritarianism With a Very Short Authoritarianism Scale

      Abstract

      Authoritarianism has been an important explanatory concept for more than 60 years and a powerful predictor of social, political, and intergroup attitudes and behaviour. An important impediment to research on authoritarianism has been the length of the measures available, particularly with the contemporary emphasis on the need for social research to use larger, more representative samples and measure multiple constructs across multiple domains. We therefore developed a six-item Very Short Authoritarianism (VSA) scale that equally represented the three content subdimensions and two directions of wording of Altemeyer’s widely used Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) scale.

      Over four samples (N = 1,601) from three countries the VSA scale showed satisfactory internal consistency and the expected hierarchical factor structure with three primary factors loading on a single higher-order factor. Additionally, the scale predicted variables such as nationalism, ethnocentrism, political orientation, political party/candidate support, attitudes towards ingroups or outgroups and anti-minority bias at moderate to strong levels with effects very close to those obtained for much longer established measures of RWA (including Altemeyer’s scale). The VSA scale also showed clearly better reliability and validity than a short measure of authoritarian parental values that has been used to measure authoritarianism.

      Keywords:
      authoritarianism, ideology, prejudice, attitudes, scale development, cross-national research

      https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/835/html

    165. defo says:

      ‘Warnings after woman is burned by ‘vagina steaming’ says Auntie.
      Didn’t read, but assume there’s a fair chance Pvt Murray could be involved.

    166. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 8 August, 2019 at 11:11 am:

      … the website Random Scottish History a Pre-1900 Book Collection of Scottish Literature, History, Art & Folklore.</i?

      https://randomscottishhistory.com

      I'll tell you a wee story. I spent most of my schooldays in Edinburgh. One of the boys in our group lived in a house at the bottom of the Canongate – only yards away from Holyrood Palace. He belonged to a family that had lived in that same house for hundreds of years. Several others were from the same area and stories get handed down through the years.

      One such story was that among the last signatures on the Treaty of Union had been signed in a cellar opposite the old Scottish Parliament further up the Royal Mile. The story went that the signatories were running and hiding for their lives and that this particular signer had been holed up in that cellar and too frightened to come out.

      So we set out to find this historic cellar. We eventually tracked it down to what was now the ladies toilet beneath a restraint almost directly over the High Street from the old parliament building. Remember that in those days the old High Street was still very much a residential area with lots of residential properties in the many old closes and such as Mary King's Close had not then been discovered.

    167. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Also the Speaker at Westminster uses the word “Division” to signal to MPs to go into the lobby to vote on Acts of Parliament. @Robert Peffers says at 5:14 pm

      The BritNats are saying no more democracy ‘cos it is too divisive. They obviously would rather we had dictatorship instead!

    168. ScotsRenewables says:

      Liz g says:
      8 August, 2019 at 3:24 pm
      Scots Renewables
      Do you go to the Wings social nights and or the Wings stall at any of the gatherings?…. And how tec savvy are you?…
      Sorry to sound so mysterious I just have a bit of an idea I don’t want to post about!!! ?
      And if you’re Nana Approved I reckon you’ll do ?

      Fairly tech-savvy ? been a web designer/developer for 21 years

      There is a separate contact form on the home page of indyref2.space that goes direct to me

    169. DerekM says:

      Nice one Rev.

      Well i like James he does try hard even if sometimes his understanding of things need a little education,though you can not say he is not open to learn more.

      I think like many he is still in a little shock from the bombardment of facts the cybernats have and use to educate,keep up the good work you vile or is it now odious cybernats 😉

      Do you think i could get odds on what we are called next,if so i am going for heinous its got to be worth a £10 bet lol

    170. geeo says:

      Further to the ‘divisiveness’ of politics in the uk parliament..

      The distance between the government and opposition benches, is measured as “two swords length” apart.

      Government and OPPOSITION ffs !!

      Big neon signs could not make it more obvious tat politics is divisive.

      How WM unionism must hanker for the days when Scots were labour voting sheep.

    171. Effijy says:

      Shocked to not see the Disastrous NHS England stats on the news.
      Are they just being kind to Scotland and reporting everything from
      A torn sheet to a sticking master that didn’t stick.

    172. Clapper57 says:

      Apology long rant please just scroll down and ignore if wish.

      Does one laugh..cry…or intermittently do both.

      How come we have got to the point of people rewriting and denying the history of what was promised in both Indy Ref by BT campaign by Unionists and by Brexit campaign by Vote Leave, prominent Tory MP’s and Leave EU ?

      How come when those who did NOT buy into the BT and Brexit leavers promises and lies and who then voted against them are ridiculed, ignored and being portrayed as the baddies ?

      How come the MSM is giving an open and regular platform to those who lied, broke their promises while at the same time are allowing themselves to be willing accomplices in ignoring those who highlight those very anomalies, irregularities and mistruths.

      Thus the media are giving an undeserved platform to the very people who have mislead both Scots via BT campaign and all within UKOK via pro Leave campaigns. They, the MSM, appear to be legitimising the BT and Leave EU sides while simultaneously deligitimising the other side’s evidence, opinions, arguments and voices ?

      One does not need any great level of education or intelligence to recognise the duplicity , unfairness and hypocrisy at play within an impartial establishment network that seems so willing to oblige and thus over endorse and over publicize the message of one side only but are less willing and able to offer the same courtesy to the other side.

      The lack of any real challenge to those whose previous positions are now clearly in contrast with the current position and message that they now hold and communicate is in itself a travesty and a scandal of epic proportions….yet still the propaganda and misinformation is given centre stage and the messengers who deliver the chaos and lies are presented as credible , informed and moral representatives.

      I do not want to listen to what pro Leave politicians, pundits, charlatans and dried up hacks think on debate shows , radio shows, gutter press, press reviews and televised interviews have to say.

      I also feel the same way about those same types of individuals who promote the Union and debase the argument for Scottish Independence and also very much those people who were actively involved with and responsible for their undelivered assurances, guarantees and promises that they made to Scots in 2014 if they voted NO in the BT campaign.

      I was not then, and I am not now going to be swayed in the future by the lies that they, the Unionists, present or ever avert my attention towards any diversion tactics deployed by the usual suspects..when all is said and done I want to remain in the EU and I want Scottish Independence and irrespective of the predictable doom and gloom that will surely be used by those who have NOT fulfilled their promises and predictions that they made in 2014 and 2016 respectively…I am no longer listening or willing to change my mind.

      I can but speak for myself on this…but like many on here I will endeavour to highlight the very points that I have made to those people who are still unsure and need to be convinced.

      It is also worth highlighting that the notion of Scottish Independence is usually presented in a way that warrants only disregard, disrespect , deemed unimportant,indulgent fantasy, ridiculed, deemed invalid, challenged as not credible or viable and where ludicrous assertions and misinformation is accepted as true by people who neither care nor know anything about Scotland, it’s politics or it’s people but are given a public platform to lie…also by or by those prominent Scots who have ulterior selfish motives for wanting to remain within the UKOK….let’s not even consider the No Surrender mob as their motives are clear only to them but not to any sane, intelligent and decent people.

      Is it really any wonder that there is so many people in despair, depressed and feeling frustrated when they live in such a sewer infested so called country and disunited Union with so many b**tards that care for no one or anything other than themselves.

      Scottish Unionists MP’s should be ashamed that they have sold out Scotland to endure this never ending s*it show . The fact that they endorsed , in 2014, what has now been exposed as a blatant lie via their BT campaign PR exercise and still endorse it as an ideal situation for Scotland defies belief and betrays who their real allegiance is to….and it sure is not to Scotland and it’s people.

      Apologies for long post.

    173. Robert Peffers says:

      @dakk says: 8 August, 2019 at 4:36 pm:

      ” ‘The Treaty of Union was most certainly a forced marriage.’
      Has always felt a bit more like gang r**e to me I’m afraid.”

      Stu’s banned list will probable swallow this post but I’ll try and post it although it isn’t really funny:-

      Young lady runs into the police station and says to the desk officer, “Officer! Officer I’ve been Gr**ped”.

      Officer says, “Do you mean you’ve been r**ped. No says the lady, “There was a bunch of them””

    174. Doug says:

      @Clapper57 7:23pm

      Well said. I feel exactly the same.

    175. Republicofscotland says:

      Well said Clapper57.

    176. galamcennalath says:

      ” Ignorance of Irish history fuels Britain’s Brexit debate …. is down to a lack of education at school level about Britain’s colonial past in Ireland. Indeed, Irish history as a whole is very rarely taught in English schools. “

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ignorance-of-irish-history-fuels-britain-s-brexit-debate-says-victoria-writer-1.3980963

      The English have virtually no idea about the realities of the ‘British’ Empire. They know nothing about either Ireland nor Scotland. And I’m not just talking guy-in-the-street, their leaders seem no be hopelessly ignorant too.

    177. dakk says:

      That raised a chuckle for me Robert.

      Certainly not not funny,if a bit Bernard Manningesque 🙂

    178. Fionan says:

      Can anyone give me the name or the link of the tory MP who very recently gave away on tv that Scotland sends £200 billion to the treasury and that WM is depending on this to survive brexit please?

      I am in a discussion at present with a yoon idiot who is asking how Scotland has the so-called deficit. He wants links and I would quite like to shut him up, as there are also others on that particular page who are brainwashed, ignorant unionists who try to say Scotland cant survive on its own, bla bla bla!Thank you 🙂

    179. Ronnie says:

      I think a lot of English people view Scotland as a theme park, somewhere that only exists to allow them to go on holiday.

    180. Marie Clark says:

      Clapper 57 very well said, totally agree with you.

    181. Colin Alexander says:

      Fionan

      BBC Economics Correspondent Andrew Verity:

      “Something north of £200 billion to the UK economy, like we’re moving the output of Scotland from the UK economy”.

      Google it: ” youtube Scotland contributes to Westminster £200 billion each year”

    182. And Spouse says:

      Since Scotland is a smaller part of the UK, I’ve always thought we should be “aware” of our position as a a tenth. However, Stu, I love your comment, the one you weren’t allowed to say on the radio

      point out that no one German region is six times bigger than all the others put together and can – and does – impose its will on them whenever it wants

      Thanks Stu, for that clarity.

    183. Colin Alexander says:

      Fionan

      also google: vimeo 303991631

    184. Breeks says:


      Clapper57 says:
      8 August, 2019 at 7:23 pm

      ….Scottish Unionists MP’s should be ashamed that they have sold out Scotland to endure this never ending s*it show ….

      An MP that would steal your vote in a referendum would steal your vote in a General Election. Same difference. Anybody seeking to deny Scotland or interfere with it’s democratic process should be automatically deselected as a public servant of the sovereign Scottish people, and thrown out of parliament for bringing Scottish politics into disrepute.

      Suppressing democracy is what Fascists and Dictators do, yet here in Scotland we have Unionists leading the charge in lobbying for precisely that – No to holding a referendum. It’s nothing short of outrageous, shameful behaviour. Get your filthy grasping hands off Scotland’s democracy, ya jumped up wee Hitler wannabes.

    185. Fionan says:

      Thank you Colin Alexander.

    186. DerekM says:

      Clapper57 yea it sucks but compared to 2014 we have come a long way.

      In 2014 we were always on the defensive scratching around for facts and the truth to fight the wave of lies directed at us while trying to enlighten the Scottish people.

      Since 2014 we have wrecked the red tories,we have wrecked the blue tories,we have started a Welsh independence movement,we ruined Cameron and May,we got rid of the UK EU veto and we have turned large parts of the English population against the state media.
      Now we take no shit and attack all purveyors of shit relentlessly.

      Listen carefully can you hear the battle cry once again 😉

    187. Lenny Hartley says:

      Colin Alrxander Scotland does not contribute 200 billion to the UK each year, the guy was talking about size of the economy not the tax take.

    188. galamcennalath says:

      Fascinating fact displayed in WoS Twitter.

      Labour Party members in Scotland only make up 2.3% of the UK total membership.

      Scots have been abandoning them big time. Now we have the situation where HQ are saying they won’t stop an IndyRef2, while the branch in Scotland says they still oppose it. No wonder they are turning away from them. And worse, this is against a background where 40% of their residual voters say they will vote Yes.

      Labour are up shite creek with neither boat nor paddle.

    189. Clapper57 says:

      @ Breeks
      “An MP that would steal your vote in a referendum would steal your vote in a General Election”

      Yeh Breeks ..and if any voter in Scotland still wants to vote for pro Union MP’s then they, the MP’s, must also be ‘stealing your mind’…Lol

      @ DerekM

      Hi Derek, Yes I am weary but not broken….they, the pro Union Scottish MP’s, might have selective memory syndrome but by c*rist I do not …Lol

      @ Doug, Republicofscotland & Marie Clark

      Hey guys n gal….they know that we know…that we know that they know what we know….but do they know what we know…when we DOOOO know what they know…..or words to that effect..Lol

      Hope you all have a good evening…what’s left of it

    190. manandboy says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/08/no-10-refuses-to-rule-out-election-shortly-after-31-october-brexit

      “Boris Johnson has said he hopes the EU will “show common sense” and agree a new Brexit deal,”

      … While in his own life, as well as in his political career, the LAST Thing that Boris Johnson knows anything about is….. COMMON SENSE!

      No matter, these comments are just the puppet show. The real action is behind the scenes, in rooms where people like Aaron Banks and Steve Bannon discuss strategy.

    191. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:

      The real action is behind the scenes

      Indeed. Have a look at how Dominic Cummings probably sees the world.

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/lord-adonis-reads-dominic-cummings-blog-1-6204770

    192. PacMan says:

      Clapper57, great post.

      These Brexit negotiations, especially the current end-game, hasn’t been the British Establishments finest hour. The more Scots see their thuggish buccaneering behaviour the more they will be turned against them. It really reminds me of these new stories about ones up in court for ordering hits on ex-business partners. Total psychopaths.

      I know people are clamouring for a second indyref as soon as possible but it makes sense to let this Brexit fiasco play itself out because the more desperate the British establishment becomes, the more out of control they will become. Once folk see that, they will have to make the decision about whether they want to be associated with that lot you want to fly with the crows, expect to be shoot at with the crows.

    193. Cubby says:

      Fionan@8.13pm

      Lenny Hartley@9.50pm is correct. The reporter on the BBC was referring to Scotlands GDP – the size of the economy.

      There is no doubt that Scotland subsidises England and not the other way around.

      A simple way to refute your Britnats is to tell them to look at Norway. Norway has the largest sovereign savings fund from its oil wealth. Also the majority of wealthy countries are small countries. Scotland is swimming in a sea of oil and gas.

      The so called deficit he refers to will be the GERS deficit. There is a Wings debunking of GERS for you to view on this site. You could refer them to that post. The so called deficit is pure propaganda.

      Westminster controls Scotlands revenues and a very large part of the spend. If you do not control your revenues and your spend you are not independent.

      If your neighbour spent large sums of money on his own house and then tells you that the debt he had incurred was your debt would you think that acceptable. That’s what happens in the UK.

      Hope that helps.

    194. Ken500 says:

      Scotland raises £60Billion in tax revenues. The UK raises £661Billion. Scotland rayses more pro rata,

      Scotland could raise more. £4Billion a year, in lost Oil revenues. Tory high taxes when price fell. Losing 120,000 jobs, Scotland could have had no unemployment. £3Billion in tax evasion. £1Billion Trident and redundant weaponry. Scotland will save £1Billion MUP. Scotland can)t borrow £5Billion for investment and growth. £4Billion in loan repayments on monies not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Total average £20Billion. Scotland could raise the same as Norway. £80Billion.

      Fishing, farming and Oil sector all mismanaged by Westminster. Scotland could raise £8Billion selling surplus fuel and energy instead of putting it on the grid. Bexit will cost Scotland £8Billion. Scotland has less of a balance of payments deficit and is self sufficient.

      Westminster Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion have cost Scotland dear.

      Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for years under the Official Secrets Act.

    195. Cubby says:

      Galamcennalath@8.02pm

      Very true.

      In fact most people in the UK have no idea of the role the British Empire played in other current trouble spots throughout the world eg the Middle East, Kashmir.

      A fairy story of the benevolent British Empire civilising the world has been propagated.

    196. Colin Alexander says:

      Lenny Hartley

      I take on board what you said.

      I just quoted what was said by the BBC Economy correspondent. I never mentioned tax.

      Tax is not a true measure of economic output or wealth anyway, as so much tax is fiddled, much of it legally, especially by the richest people and businesses.

      Just look at Kaye Adams, George Galloway, Tony Blair, Amazon, Ebay, Google etc on ways to minimise your tax bill.

      It’s no PAYE for them I bet.

    197. Thepnr says:

      I’ll tell you what I think, Boris Johnson doesn’t want to meet and start to negotiate anything with the EU. Not because he’s calling their bluff or any other such foolish notions.

      There’s a simple and most likely explanation and it’s that he has nothing to negotiate with so he is scared of them. He can’t turn up saying “backstop backstop” so he’s made that a condition of negotiations even starting. Hahaha I find that funny as fuck.

      Because he knows it’s a losing strategy and it doesn’t need Cummings to tell him that. He has to build up the pressure of the EU refusing to talk even though it is his red lines that prevent any talks in the first place.

      But the dam is cracking, the Belfast Telegraph the other day reported that they would accept a “time limited backstop” of say 5 years. Johnson today is saying he’s open to talks but ignore the backstop.

      I think this is politics at it’s most infantile to be honest and if it wasn’t for the likely consequences of a No Deal exit from the EU then it would be laughable.

      Right NOW the UK is in a mess especially for those on the bottom rung of the so called ladder. We have food banks, benefit sanctions, increased suicides and drug deaths. It really is serious and needs tackling for the benefit of all of society. With No Deal it can only get worse.

      I don’t even believe Boris Johnson will want to go there but the man is a clown so can know. Business will be telling him it’s a bad idea, his senior civil servants will all be telling him how bad an idea it is. Will he listen?

      I believe he is full of bluff and bluster and when it comes to it he will be the one to cave in, a bit to go yet but a further extension is not a long shot.

      Whatever, everything he does now in his time as Prime Minister makes Independence more likely, of that I have no doubt unlike what Johnson’s next moves might be.

    198. Liz g says:

      Fiona @ 8.13
      You could also try asking – where the oil is – !
      Everybody knows and can say where Norway’s oil is!
      We all know what they did with theirs.
      Well where’s Scotland’s we had just as much mibbi even more.
      What did Westminster do with it all ?
      Have your friends ever heard where it went?

    199. Phronesis says:

      Wall St is worried that Trump isn’t particularly bright, a liar who doesn’t understand internationalism and trade relations.

      ‘…if you only got your information about the president from the president himself, you might also think he was “great-looking”, emotionally stable, and fantastic with money, when, of course none of these things are true…Trump has no understanding of macroeconomics, international trade, business, or the very purpose of the Federal Reserve’
      https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/donald-trump-trade-war-2020

      Boris Trump isn’t much better. A fantasist and a liar, promising unicorns and trying to punt Brexit- which is tied to English nationalism- to Scotland. Scotland is a country that will have no part in enabling Brexit- put that on the side of a bus.

      ‘The last thing any self-respecting politician needs or wants is a ringing endorsement from Donald Trump…It is widely felt that Johnson has promised fields of unicorns…He now has to make good on a promise to leave the EU by the end of October, deal or no deal, while cutting taxes for the rich, increasing public spending, and addressing the many problems that have befallen the U.K. after years in which the government was only focused on Brexit — rising knife crime, pollution, collapsing social care, underfunded health care… Brexit is primarily an English movement, tied to English nationalism, and Johnson was voted into his position mainly be a small group of Southern, English, men. Whatever happens next, it’s unlikely to be pretty. Just as Trump may well be leading to the unravelling of the Republicans, Johnson may just be the final demise of Conservatives.
      https://gen.medium.com/has-britain-joined-the-trump-bandwagon-8281517b0e0e

    200. Dr Jim says:

      If England had become an Independent country three years ago they’d have been out of the EU and saved themselves a lot of bother and money and Scotland could have continued EU membership along with whoever else wanted to stay

      Therein lies the nature of the existing UK of England, power control and money…..for England, with the rest of us footing their bill

      The UK wide referendum? what Nationality is a UK? or even a *British*?

    201. Fireproofjim says:

      Telegraph and Sky News reporter saying Johnston’s plan is to go for a general election immediately after Brexit. Perhaps the first week in November.
      It seems to me that both London parties have already written off Scotland to the SNP. If both Labour and Tories north of the border are wiped out, the balance of Westminster seats is roughly maintained.
      Anyway, bring it on, as somebody, now forgotten, once said.

    202. manandboy says:

      The State of play in the Union Test Match :

      The Union is a scam. The scammers want it to stay that way. The victims want it to end.

      The Lord hears the cry of the poor.

      England vs God.

      No contest.

    203. manandboy says:

      Independence is Normal.

      Never forget it.

      It is time.

    204. Colin Alexander says:

      My Herald comment about David Mundell:

      ” I’m her yesterday man. Well my friends that’s what I am. I’m her yesterday man. Well my friends that’s what I am. That’s what I am, a yesterday man”.

      Chris Andrews song titles:

      Yesterday’s man ( David Mundell, Theresa’s yesteday man)

      Too bad you don’t want me ( is that what Mundell said as he had his petted lip when sacked by Boris?).

      To Whom it Concerns ( That’s the people of Scotland)

      It’s all up to you now

      ( Vote YES for independence, no more colonial treatment from Colonial Governors like Mundell or Jack).

    205. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 7.23pm

      “at play within an impartial establishment network”

      Wrong !…me bad…again.

      Should have been “at play within a LESS than impartial establishment network”

      My fingers worked faster than me brain.

      @ PacMan @ 10.28pm

      “These Brexit negotiations, especially the current end-game, hasn’t been the British Establishments finest hour”

      Yep PacMan, Boris thinks he will have his Churchillian ‘finest hour’ moment as the UKOK PM that delivers Brexit…pity that he cannot see the actual “end game” will, God willing, result in his own Mein Kampf Fuhrer moment and will lead to an end game with him as the last PM of UK(NotAndNeverWas) OK….

      Have a good evening …what’s left of it

    206. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Fireproofjim @ 23:20,

      My guesstimate also.

      The question remains: have the London parties, while (mostly*) writing-off Scotland on account of its electoral “neutrality” as they see it, also discounted the likely pro-SNP surge because they are casually indifferent to the consequences, or because they still believe they can somehow still neutralise them…?

      *(Except McDonnell, who evidently doesn’t mind having a little insurance policy “on the side”.)

    207. Thepnr says:

      Who said this?

      If [the Tory Party] sometimes seems English to some Scots that is because the Union is inevitably dominated by England by reason of its greater population.

      The Scots, being an historic nation with a proud past, will inevitably resent some expressions of this fact from time to time. As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union.

      Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure. What the Scots (not indeed the English) cannot do, however, is to insist upon their own terms for remaining in the Union, regardless of the views of the others.

      Maggie Thatcher in her memoirs “The Downing Street Years”

    208. Thepnr says:

      I think Johnson is already making massive blunders. This from the Daily Heil is an example. I think it’s meant to be supportive but read right through it’s just another disaster.

      http://archive.fo/8qXrv

    209. Petra says:

      @ Colin Alexander says ..”I am flogging a deid horse here but, thought it might interest you what has been written:..

      Well done to you Colin. You are doing more than most on here. Let’s hope that you get a result.

    210. Willie says:

      No go area re-established in Belfast as police retreat from New Lodge area.

      Reminiscent of the early days of the troubles Brexit and the repudiation of the GFA look set to cause a return to war.

    211. Willie says:

      And for anyone looking at picture of police officers looking more like a paramilitary forces,and especially those with side arms, , spare a thought for the 400 or so Scottish police now trained for deployment in NI.

    212. Breeks says:


      Willie says:
      9 August, 2019 at 5:55 am
      No go area re-established in Belfast as police retreat from New Lodge area.

      Reminiscent of the early days of the troubles Brexit and the repudiation of the GFA look set to cause a return to war….

      If that happens, the ramifications for Westminster will be profound.

      I listed yesterday a list of markers for the early signs of fascism, and virtually all of them were boxes which the UK already ticks.

      But as soon as the UK Government “suspends” democracy in Scotland, or materially provokes a return to hostilities in Northern Ireland, I predict the International Community will quickly run out patience with the UK’s dabbling with Fascism, and will be obliged to treat the UK as Fascist. Rebukes and sanctions will follow, and the UK can forget all about Free Trade Agreements. Even the USA will step back from the UK if the Troubles are rekindled.

      I have read the UK being described as suffering boiled frog syndrome, where the gradual and pernicious slide towards Fascism is passing unnoticed. They need to wake up and realise their predicament now, before it’s too late.

      Provoking bloodshed in Ireland, and prohibition of democratic process in Scotland are big irrecoverable steps the UK Government really, really doesn’t want to take, and yet they’re still prepared to put their faith in this spectacular Tory Arsehole and the deluded backdrop of British exceptionalism.

      I hope Nicola has her hand on the Ejector Seat lever, and I mean the October make-safe state of emergency, not some forlorn date next year or beyond.

    213. Ken500 says:

      Tories majority one. 30 Tories will not support (a no deal) Brexit, The Tories are toast.

      A GE. One campaign at a time. Another IndyRef which can be won. The de coupling will take a while. Scotland will be much better off Independent. A. better world.

    214. stu mac says:

      @Dr Jim says:
      8 August, 2019 at 11:07 pm

      Therein lies the nature of the existing UK of England, power control and money…..for England, with the rest of us footing their bill

      Overstatement – or perhaps understatement. The North regions of England and areas like the far West of England suffer much as Scotland does with all power and wealth flowing to London and its surrounding counties. They are worse off in a way as they don’t have regional devolved parliaments with power to fight off the worse affects of London policy. Unfortunately their own English nationalism makes it easy for most of them to fall for the lies and propaganda which it seems more than 50% of Scotland sees through.

    215. hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’s Links here:
      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    216. manandboy says:

      Irrespective of who said this, the issue is the truth of it and the value or importance of that truth.

      The Union of 1707 is unravelling as more and more of the truth about it becomes better known and more widespread. To counter this, the British Establishment through the UK Government employs propaganda to such an extent that the UK electorate is arguably the most brainwashed of any State on Earth.

      “There is no other Treaty in the world that I’m aware of where a Sovereign Nation (Scotland) undertakes to join up and can only leave when the other side says so.”

      David Davis MP, Conservatives
      Former Brexit Minister.

    217. Robert Peffers says:

      @Fionan says: 8 August, 2019 at 8:13 pm:

      ” … I am in a discussion at present with a yoon idiot who is asking how Scotland has the so-called deficit. He wants links and I would quite like to shut him up, as there are also others on that particular page who are brainwashed, ignorant unionists who try to say Scotland cant survive on its own, bla bla bla!Thank you.

      I’m really tired of posting various things that rubbish such claims, Fionan.

      I posted one such retort only the other day but here we go again. Let’s start with historic proof that Westminster was ripping Scotland off back in the 1800s. This can be accessed right here on the Wings reference pages. Go to the top of a Wings page and there is a broad black line right across the page. click on REFERENCE.

      Here there are many links to articles right here on Wings. Under the sub-heading, “FEATURES, Try, “What you could have won”, “The Historic Debt”, “The Subsidy myth”, and so on. There is more than enough on those pages to shoot down any claims that Scotland is subsidised.

      Here, though, is some of my own ways of shutting these numpties up. The Scottish annual per capita GDP, (Gross Domestic Product), is normally higher than any other United Kingdom country.

      Now per capita GDP is often used by those who try to put Scotland down as subsidy junkies by comparing Scotland’s annual per capita GDP with that of the financial City of London. This is a false comparison as the City of London financial sector is many sky scraper buildings close together and packed with high earning stock market traders and Scotland is a country with many areas of barren almost empty of people.

      Thus whatever areas chosen must be comparable and in this instance the numpties have chosen to compare a country, (Scotland), with a Stock Market one square mile – point that out to them and then compare the country of Scotland with the country of England and the annual Scottish per capita GDP is higher than that of England.

      You are correctly comparing a country with a country and, as the Scottish per capita GDP is higher and as GDP is the total revenue earned for the treasury divided by the total population of a given area then each Scot on average pays more into the UK treasury than the average Englander then it follows that each Scot is subsidising each Englander. Then cannot prove that wrong. There have been a few years that the Scots per capita GDP has been lower but these have been due to unusual circumstances.

      Now you hit them with the knock out punch. Not a single penny of oil & gas revenue is credited as being Scottish earned revenue. This is because the Treasury classes all oil & gas revenue as being earned from United Kingdom, “Extra-Regio-Territory”, but up to 98% of it is extracted from what is recognised internationally under the international law of the seas as being under Scottish jurisdiction and the definition of Extra-regio is defined as, “Not identifiable as from any particular region”, but I have just identified it as Scottish.

      So, there you go, Scotland pays far more into the treasury per head of population than does England and thus all we get back is the Scottish Block Grant which is a very long way short of what we pay in.

      Anyway, look at copying a few of those articles from the Wings reference pages and read them out or give them to those who attempt to lie about Scotland being subsidised.

      Here is another fact that rather deflates these liars. They will try to claim that Scotland gets more per head by the Barnett formula than everyone else. This just indicates in the first place they do not understand the devolution process.

      First thing is Scotland does not get the highest per capita funding because Northern Ireland is the highest per capita block grant area. The reason that those, and they include many MSPs, MPs and MEPS, just do not understand the system is this :-

      Devolution is simply taking away the powers previously carried out by the Westminster Ministries and transferring them to the devolved administrations. However you cannot devolve the powers to the devolved administration without also taking away from the ministries the cash to run the devolved matters.

      So the reason that the devolved administrations all get different per capita levels of block grant is because they all have different devolved matters. N.I. has the greatest level of devolved matters so N.I. gets the highest block grant. Scotland has less devolved functions than N.I. but more than Wales so Wales gets less per capita funding than Scotland. Simples!

      Here though is the scam – England has no devolved functions and is still funded directly by Westminster Ministries and thus England is funded as The United Kingdom and the government classes many things as being UK things – like the National Museums, National Art Galleries, National Theatres, and things like the Chunnel, Heath Row and much of the infrastructure that serves some things.

      So there you go – just a few things that can take the wind out of these ignorant numpties. Now remember that ignorance does not mean these people are stupid – it means they do not know the truth. Prove to them the truth and you are on the way to converting them to independence for all the devolved areas.

    218. thomas says:

      @ stu mac.

      I understand what you are saying pal , but dr jims statement still rings true.

      England extracts money from its colonies , and if their parliament and capital city in london chooses not to disperse the money equally and fairly to the other english regions , then thats up to them.

      Its not down to us to fight northern england of western englands corner.

      They were offered the chance to have regional parliaments in the english regions , and from memory turned it down back in the blair days.

      Its not down to 5.5 million scots to sort out the mess london has made for 55 million english ,or the mess in any other country around the globe.

      We have enough clearing up to do in our own nation after 400 years of union with england which has seen our country devastated linguistically , culturally , demographically and economically.

      London turned india , or what was once the old mughal empire , from one of the richest areas on the planet , producing 25% if global GDP due to the textile trade , into a third world country after two hundred years of london rule.

      It wasnt down to gandhi and the other indians of the sub continent to alleviate poverty in blackpool or newcastle because of london misrule. His job was to gain indian independence , not fight for people who seem happy in their poverty and ignorance waving a st georges cross.

    219. mike cassidy says:

      Nana

      You should be ashamed of yourself linking to this.

      https://twitter.com/wordamentalist/status/1159445435209199623

    220. mike cassidy says:

      Ottomanboi 8.40

      That’s a bit much

      That Kashmir/Scotland comparison.

      Maybe lolling around colonial-era houseboats is not the best activity for producing clear thinking!

      Civic Scotland is hardly destroying itself in pursuit of the right to ‘make its own mistakes’.

      http://archive.is/MCLDJ

    221. hackalumpoff says:

      @ mike cassidy 09:02
      You don’t know the trouble I have Editing those links, she is shameless I tell ya!

    222. galamcennalath says:

      All this Federal pish. If they were ever serious about saving their Union, they would have proactively reformed the UK structure. Waiting until the independence option has become established in folks’ minds is way too late. The could have done it decades ago.

      A restructuring of the UK might have prevented the problems which have lead to Indy support.

      Federalism (difficult as that would been to achieve) would have been a preventive move. It isn’t applicable now as a cure for a terminal Union. Too late, the steamer left the pier long long ago.

    223. mike cassidy says:

      Thomas 8.49

      You’re right.

      The people did vote ‘no’ in the first devolved assembly referendum

      And Labour abandoned the plan for more.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum

      And the man who masterminded the no-campaign in 2004.

      Dominic Cummings: The Durham-born ‘career psychopath’

      https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/dominic-cummings-vote-leave-boris-16636327

    224. mike cassidy says:

      hackalumpoff 9.26

      But it is very funny.

      And makes you wonder what a digital-age Spitting Image programme could do.

    225. thomas says:

      @ Galamcennalath

      I have an old old book by peter beresford ellis from 1968 called Wales……a nation again.

      In chapter ten , the author points out the idea of a federal united kingdom was first evolved way back in 1844 , and was a theme used by isaac butt from 1870 – 78.

      So this idea of federalism as a sop to the daft jocks paddies and taffs goes back 175 years , and they are still trotting it out every year to butter up the gullible , and they will keep trotting it out till the uk splits up along with every other belter under the sun to stave off independence.

    226. thomas says:

      Cheers mike.

      The english dont want saved from themselves , and if they did its no our job to do so.

    227. Capella says:

      Iain Martin article in The Times lists all the old tropes and forecasts how the Unionists plan to counter independence. You know them all already.

      Scotland’s exports to the rest of the UK totalled £49.8 billion, compared with £14.9 billion to the EU.

      The record of the administration that Sturgeon runs is almost parodically dire. Away from the Edinburgh Festival the main story in Scotland’s capital city is the scandal of a new children’s hospital, “the Sick Kids”, that cannot open because of flaws in the building. The SNP’s health minister is beleaguered.

      Sturgeon herself is a deeply divisive figure

      Alex Salmond goes on trial next year charged with attempted rape and sexual assault. Sturgeon may not survive the fallout. A split party, divided between Sturgeonites and Salmond supporters, is heading for internal warfare

      Johnson and Davidson uniting for a bigger cause could be a surprisingly potent electoral force, whatever the Nationalists say.

      A messy Brexit complicates matters, of course, but the Scottish Tories must realise that an epic constitutional crisis is coming, in which they have no option other than to say that the deeper Union trumps the European Union. The SNP offer after Brexit will be tougher to sell too, because it necessitates complex negotiations with the EU to get Scotland back in while it still shares a currency with England.

      If the Brexit crisis does tip into a general election this autumn, the Tories should make two clear pledges on the Union. First, that they will not allow an independence referendum for five years, while Brexit plays out, thus making themselves guarantors of the Union and the secure home for anti-Nationalists when Labour is a lost cause.

      Second, they should be much bolder on wider constitutional reform. A commission is needed that will recommend devolving maximum powers across Britain — on taxation, for example — and consider turning the UK into something closer to a federal collection of states, pooling defence and foreign affairs.

      So there we have it – an ancient, loved and successfull union
      England’s your biggest market
      What currency will you use
      the SNP are rubbish, Alex Salmond, civil war etc
      federealism is just around the corner
      we’ll aboloish the house of Lords.

      The Quebequois waited 15 years before thei second referendu, We sill remember all these alse promises from 5 years ago, at least most of us do.

      Won’t archive

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-will-have-to-fight-if-they-want-to-save-the-union-2mjtnq573?shareToken=79a56500a11ead1891637502152ecb88

    228. Capella says:

      Iain Martin article in The Times lists all the old tropes and forecasts how the Unionists plan to counter independence. You know them all already.

      Scotland’s exports to the rest of the UK totalled £49.8 billion, compared with £14.9 billion to the EU.

      The record of the administration that Sturgeon runs is almost parodically dire. Away from the Edinburgh Festival the main story in Scotland’s capital city is the scandal of a new children’s hospital, “the Sick Kids”, that cannot open because of flaws in the building. The SNP’s health minister is beleaguered.

      Sturgeon herself is a deeply divisive figure

      Alex Salmond goes on trial next year charged with attempted r**e and sexual assault. Sturgeon may not survive the fallout. A split party, divided between Sturgeonites and Salmond supporters, is heading for internal warfare

      Johnson and Davidson uniting for a bigger cause could be a surprisingly potent electoral force, whatever the Nationalists say.

      A messy Brexit complicates matters, of course, but the Scottish Tories must realise that an epic constitutional crisis is coming, in which they have no option other than to say that the deeper Union trumps the European Union. The SNP offer after Brexit will be tougher to sell too, because it necessitates complex negotiations with the EU to get Scotland back in while it still shares a currency with England.

      If the Brexit crisis does tip into a general election this autumn, the Tories should make two clear pledges on the Union. First, that they will not allow an independence referendum for five years, while Brexit plays out, thus making themselves guarantors of the Union and the secure home for anti-Nationalists when Labour is a lost cause.

      Second, they should be much bolder on wider constitutional reform. A commission is needed that will recommend devolving maximum powers across Britain — on taxation, for example — and consider turning the UK into something closer to a federal collection of states, pooling defence and foreign affairs.

      So there we have it – an ancient, loved and successfull union
      England’s your biggest market
      What currency will you use
      the SNP are rubbish, Alex Salmond, civil war etc
      federealism is just around the corner
      we’ll aboloish the house of Lords.

      The Quebequois waited 15 years before thei second referendu, We sill remember all these alse promises from 5 years ago, at least most of us do.

      Won’t archive

      https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-will-have-to-fight-if-they-want-to-save-the-union-2mjtnq573?shareToken=79a56500a11ead1891637502152ecb88

    229. mike cassidy says:

      OT

      But as we head closer to becoming just another state of the USA if we don’t vote for independence

      Did I just dream that America had a black president for eight years?

      http://archive.is/N4wvs

    230. Arthur Thomson says:

      I will sleep better tonight in the knowledge that Mundell, useless little nyaff that he is, will not block a no deal Brexit. Lol.

      As if he was ever anything other than a grubby puppet.

    231. Capella says:

      Apos for typos

    232. Phydaux says:

      This is how radio should sound like. I could almost hear James O’Brien’s thoughts whirring away as he listened to the wee selection of pro Indy voices…passionate, well informed, articulate, confident and proud of our future prospects in an Independent Kingdom of Scotland. Radio can be a powerful medium and it was heartening to hear those voices. Our voices are nowhere to be heard on BBC Radio Scotland because they are censored.

      It’s ok to feel sad, Mr. O’Brien. Change is afoot, plans are underway and being prepared. Call it what you will…break up, divorce, separation, dissolution. Such feelings are normal in response to loss. People can then move on and adapt.

      I would like to add the “ science” of eugenics to Breeks’ list of markers for signs of fascism. It was Francis Galton, Darwin’s cousin, who termed the new “science” of eugenics, meaning “ well born”. Our ancestors were deemed to be of sub-standard stock, hence the Clearances as but one example. “ Reproduction must be managed to ensure that the “ best “ people have most offspring while the poor ( or those referred to as the “ feeble minded “ ) should be discouraged or even prevented from having children. “ 2 child cap, anyone? A brutal welfare policy which has literally killed thousands of our fellow humans with debilitating and complex health issues, anyone? Nazi ideology writ large. Removing peoples compassion for those less fortunate than themselves is a key component of all controlling regimes.

      Johnston and his right wing gobshites’ Empire is crumbling. The people of Scotland are on a fundamentally different journey now so thank you for putting that final nail in the coffin of the “ precious “ union.

    233. mr thms says:

      Regarding new figures today showing the UK GDP figures fell by -0.2% in the second quarter.

      A couple of days ago the Scottish Government released revised GDP figures for the first quarter.

      chttps://www.gov.scot/news/gdp-and-quarterly-national-accounts-for-2019-quarter-1/

      “Scotland’s GDP growth is now estimated at 0.6% during the first quarter of 2019, according to statistics announced today by Scotland’s Chief Statistician. Growth in the latest quarter has been revised up from the first estimate of 0.5% published on 19 June.”

      This figure will not include offshore activity.

      Had a quick search but I was unable to locate the UK GDP figure for Extra Regio where figure for oil and gas production can be found..

      It will be interesting to see if production has increased!

    234. Dr Jim says:

      Everybody Iain Martin talks to wants to stay in the UK,
      well maybe in his lodge that’s true but in the world that normal humans live, they don’t

    235. Dr Jim says:

      We must convince Scots to remain in the UK with lies and if that doesn’t work we’ll threaten them

      Strong case there, I’m sold…….not!

    236. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Ian Murray gets the SNP toppling Labour in 1979 along with a few other easily proven lies in this article:

      http://archive.is/qj9PO

      Labour Civil War reignites!

    237. Socrates MacSporran says:

      When Simon Jenkins, one of the big hitters in the London media bubble comes up with an article saying Scottish Independence is inevitable – then it will happen.

      All the Westminster thinkers have to do is concoct a plausible explanation, which will play well in the Home Counties as to why they had to let the Jocks go.

      We tried to save them from themselves, but, we could no persuade them to stay, so, reluctantly – we allowed them to leave. That’s the story they have to invent, so as they don’t lose face and appear magnanimous.

      It’s never England’s fault – if the lesser mortals refuse to see sense. That’s their default position.

    238. DerekM says:

      Same old rubbish from the same old yoon shit goblins.

      I hate to say i told you so to some of the indy movement but i did say they were going to fight us on the devo max federalism battle ground again.

      Why because it is the only way they can turn a negative into a positive and also it is all that they have.

      They can threaten to shut down devolution all they want they will never do it because if they do we WILL cram UN article 1 up their arse.

      Personally i think that is what we should do anyway since i do not trust the UK to run a fair referendum under a section 30.

      Never forget Scotland the United Nations recognise Scotland as a nation.

      They want to play hard ball then lets play them in the biggest arena instead of in their shitty home ground.

    239. Mac says:

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/09/independence-scotland-inevitable-scot-nicola-sturgeon

      The most interesting thing is the rather obvious ‘sponsored’ posters appearing BTL. It’s really started. The funny part is they are not fully geared up yet with current up-to-date arguments…

      They are using the old out of date Project Fear scripts

      It would be interesting to know if they are call centres of the Government, Tory or other Right Wings ideologues. Army or GCHQ?

      One thing is for sure, Cybernats need to up their game again… The battle is on the horizon.

    240. Mac says:

      We all understand FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) but is there anywhere a list of Scottish Independence – Frequently Stated Falsehoods and the opposite well worded rebuttal?

      I ask, because if there was a big file / database of high quality answers and rebuttals, we could all cut and paste and post without retyping every time. After all, the same old arguments against Independence recur across time and MSM.

      Imagine, Powerful instant rebuttal of a very high quality and absolutely factual, without error. It would be consistent messaging across the media.

      Think about it.

    241. Breeks says:

      OT

      Labour losing over 100 members a day and it’s blamed on antisemitism?

      Supposing my life depended on it, I couldn’t even tell you what Labour did that was antisemitic. I couldn’t even drop you a hint.

      I’ll file this under Foreign news which has absolutely nothing to do with me.

    242. Golfnut says:

      @ Mac.

      To be honest Mac that article is a pretty good example of a very well educated individual not having a clue about the constitutional makeup of the UK.

    243. SilverDarling says:

      The Simon Jenkins article represents another milestone.

      Finally, a London based commentator doesn’t spin but presents a timeline of events with their appropriate weighting and significance and context. Although he doesn’t acknowledge the role he and his cohorts have had in trying to diminish what is going on here.

      Remember today, a London based Yoon had this published in the Guardian. Truly momentous.

    244. galamcennalath says:

      Scottish Independence is becoming normalised.

      For most people in the UK it was unthinkable 10years ago. Almost 5 years ago they thought we were back into our wee box. But we’ve continued to be noisy.

      Half the UK, and the thinking and metropolitan classes in particular, are horrified at the way Brexit is unfolding. Suddenly they see why so many in Scotland think there’s another better way without London interference. And it is now being recognised as exactly that, unwanted undemocratic interference.

      More and more non Scots are wishing us well on our journey.

    245. geeo says:

      @mac@11.42am

      “One thing is for sure, Cybernats need to up their game again… The battle is on the horizon”.
      …..

      Absolute nonsense, the very reason Unionists are left repeating the tired old debunked arguments of 2014, is exactly because us ‘cybernats’ are on top of our game, on a daily basis.

      The only people who still believe the 2014 lies of BT are the people who still want to believe it, the hardest of hardcore No voters, people we can never reach.

      I would venture that most people, with a functioning brain, have witnessed for themselves they were lied to.

      And once you know someone lied to you, you question everything they say in the future.

      And that is why support is now seen to be growing.

      Knowing people lied is only stage one, you can know they lied, but still not move to Yes from No, as your belief in No still exists.

      Only when you accept No was wrong, within yourself, are you going to back Yes.

      And that takes longer, until you are confronted with the actual question again, and are forced to ask yourself the question:

      Why would I vote No this time, when I know they are lying to me ?

      And at that moment of proof, 2nd time around, is when I firmly believe that many previous No voters will vote Yes, rather than, as in 2014, stick with what they know, and vote No.

      That doubt, was seeded into previous No voters by Yes supporters, over time, since the 2014 result (the media certainly never converted them or even made them think) and it was done because we know our arguments and passionately believe in them.

      Previous No voters didn’t simply take our word for it, we all worked our arses off, using sound arguments, facts and endless patience.

      And THAT is what you call being on our game already.

      We can always do more, but stating we need to “up our game” is disingenuous.

    246. admiral says:

      SilverDarling says:
      9 August, 2019 at 12:10 pm
      The Simon Jenkins article represents another milestone.

      I’ve got to say it has a strange view of the history of these islands. Refers to the “British Isles”, which of course includes the Republic of Ireland, as though they are one political entity.

      It also appears to suggest that there has been a British state and empire of sorts since the time of the Norman Conquest – totally ignorant of the fact that Scotland was an independent country until 1707, whatever various English monarchs may have thought comprised their kingdom.

      Compares us to Denmark – a legitimate comparison – but cannot understand why Scotland, as part of Union, has a much lower level of GDP per head than Denmark. It doesn’t appear to question the impact of that very union on the economic situation we have today.

      I post BTL in the Guardian sometimes and of course the usual Yoon trolls are out in force, with their tired, clapped out and easily disprovable “arguments” about the “precious union”.

    247. Jack Murphy says:

      Re the Simon Jenkins Opinion in today’s Guardian here are a few Grabs for Wings readers in a hurry:

      “Independence for Scotland is inevitable – we need a plan for it ”
      [using the pronoun ‘we’ Jenkins presumably means those people in England’s Establishment and Westminster]

      “Scotland has the same population as Denmark, with much the same resources, infrastructure and talent.
      Once it was richer by far. Today its GDP per person is $33,000 against Denmark’s $63,000.

      I am sure the slide lies in Scotland’s long economic dependency on the UK.

      Denmark would no more think of re-entering its former union with Norway than of leaving the EU. It enjoys small-state autonomy, and clearly prospers from it.
      It is a rich, happy country. ”

      ” If I were a Scot I’d vote for independence tomorrow “

    248. Ottomanboi says:

      @DerekM 11:31
      I am perplexed by your seeming trust in the UN, an organization which since its inception has done so little to prevent regional wars and tends to kowtow to the interests of regional powers.
      From Korea to the present day when faced with crisis the UN presents at best a Janus face.
      How will it handle the looming serious crisis in Kashmir or the ongoing Uyghur persecution in East Turkestan or the Rohingya minority in Burma?
      Like it usually does by considering such matters ‘internal’.
      Minorities are persecuted or threatened with ethnic cleansing world wide the UN, a puppet of power politics can do nothing to help them because it has no teeth, by design.
      Scotland is an internal UK concern, it would never even consider to become involved, no matter how bad things might get.
      As a member of an ancient MidEastern ‘minority’ now being forced to leave their land, about whom no one seems to care, I do know what I’m talking about.

    249. Cubby says:

      I wish I had not read that Simon Jenkins article. It pissed me off big time. So so many factual errors. These so called knowledgeable journalists are nothing of the sort. They just keep on perpetuating misunderstandings to their readership.

      Part of it is also insulting to Scotland – referring to Scotland as a region. Saying the old crap about Scotland being economically dependent on the U.K. The Incorrect nonsense about the Queen. I could go on and on.

      I can partly understand some thinking their view is shifting. What we need is no voters in Scotland shifting. Will this article help – possibly to some extent and that is what really matters. Other than that I don’t care what Simon Jenkins thinks just another Britnat journalist who doesn’t know as much about the UK as he thinks. Britnats wallow in their ignorance.

    250. Ottomanboi says:

      @Mike Cassidy 09:19
      Before you post you might take the trouble to read carefully the links, one of which you actually, for some reason, repost.

    251. Bob Mack says:

      It seems that these media experts have it in their mind that Scotland is dependent on England’s benificence. Without England to hold us up we could not possibly survive. It’s all guesswork on their part of course.

      Scotland cannot remain under what is effectively English rule. Our paths are diverging by the day in terms of political and social choices.

      Assuming they were right, (which they are not) ,
      then Scotland would face the choice between two evils.

      Mae West once said “If I had to pick between two evils, I’d go for the one I hadn’t tried yet”. In this case Independence.

    252. SilverDarling says:

      I suppose the Simon Jenkins article for me represents a shift in thinking which is the main thing.

      The factual errors are almost incidental. And some of it is his opinion of how things developed so that can be argued.You only have to look at BTL here to see the minutiae that sets people off like rockets! I think we get really bogged down here trying to be right and arguing points with people who want the same thing. Whereas, Jenkins,an uber yoon can now in his own muddled way see the core of the matter.

      I think it is momentous for the idea that it represents a change in mindset and that Scotland for whatever reasons, and they are legion and can be argued, now needs to go its own way. This is not from people who are sympathetic but from people who are now realistic.

    253. mr thms says:

      I heard an ‘announcement’ on the BBC Scotland news this morning during BBC Breakfast.

      It was on behalf of BMA Scotland.

      The ‘announcement’ is reprised on the BBC Scotland news website

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49284971

      “Doctors have warned that Scotland needs to increase spending on the NHS by up to £3bn a year to bring it into line with other similar EU countries.”

      I was hoping it would be debunked and I did not have to long to wait!

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/08/09/never-mind-the-quality-feel-the-money-says-trade-union-for-doctors-then-lies-about-performance/

      “This is an astonishing set of lies about the performance and the condition of NHS Scotland turned uncritically into a supposed news report by BBC Scotland.”

      Well done Talking Up Scotland!

      I can understand why the BMA Scotland would want to campaign for more money for NHS Scotland since their members would gain financially from more investment, but for the BBC not to provide an equal amount of television time to a point by poiny rebuttal must have breached their rules of impartiality.

    254. cirsium says:

      @Mac, 10.58
      We all understand FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) but is there anywhere a list of Scottish Independence – Frequently Stated Falsehoods and the opposite well worded rebuttal?

      Try the WBB. Many of the falsehoods from 2014 are being repeated now. I used it the other day in responding to a claim that jobs will be lost if WMD are moved from the Clyde. See the WoS Reference section.

    255. Bob Mack says:

      @Mt This,

      The BMA want much more than more investment. What lies behind this report is an attempt to put Clinicians in more positions of power within Health Boards.

      For many years Doctors have believed that they should run the service to provide Health care to the public. They resent being under control of various Directors of services who make decisions on equipment and service provision and conditions.

      Medical staff want more direct control, hence reports like this to put pressure on the Government to increase medical input.

      Not a good idea in my experience.

    256. mike cassidy says:

      Ottoman out 12.52

      I was just archiving your second link.

      Should have made that clearer.

    257. Terry callachan says:

      To ottomanboi, your post at 0840.

      I don’t think Kashmir is a colony ?
      Kashmir was always part of India, even though Britain colonised India and then sold Kashmir to a wealthy local through the east India company its fair to say that it wasn’t really land that Britain or its east India company had a legal right to sell.

      When Britain left India and Pakistan was formed , Kashmir was split and now it looks like the part that India kept is wanted by Pakistan, sure enough it’s complicated because the majority of folk living there are Muslims.

      Similar problem in east of India where Bengal was split and Bangladesh formed.

      And to the north India have a problem because land that was once part of India that became part of Pakistan on partition was given away by Pakistan to China moving china’s border closer to India of today.

    258. Dr Jim says:

      The £3billion Scotland needs to be as good as everybody else might just have had a teeny weeny bit more weight in it if amongst the people pictured informing Scotland of this need didn’t include Tory MP Paul Masterton

      Kinda wrecks the cred a wee bitty when Tories say Scotland’s rubbish especially when you find out that England’s hospitals on a weekend are protected by more police than Scotland has on the streets of the whole country

      That’s around 20.000 Cops on duty in England’s hospitals to keep the staff safe

      Marauding hordes of angry Brexiters?

    259. Golfnut says:

      @ Silver darling.

      Simon Jenkins said he would vote for Independence, but he was suggesting federalism when he opines that Westminster makes us an offer. You can see a narrative developing.

    260. SilverDarling says:

      @Golfnut 1.37 pm

      I suppose just as they can see it is inevitable that we must go they see it as their duty to throw the kitchen sink again to try to stop it. We will be more prepared this time for sure.

      Ach, Federalism Schmederalism…

    261. Dr Jim says:

      Last week David Mundell was fighting against Scottish Independence with every sinew and the last breath in his body until hell freezeth over

      This week? Independence? Meh, Not so much, not really bothered about it mate

    262. Legerwood says:

      Mr Thomas @ 13.14 PM

      Re the article on the BBC Scotland news website about the BMA wanting an extra £3 billion per year for the NHS.

      I noticed this quote in the article from the BMA who clearly do not do irony “”BMA Scotland said the country must follow others such as Austria and Belgium which spend 10% of GDP on health.””

      Austria and Belgium are of course, small independent countries in the EU.

      Wonder if this means the BMA are gradually coming round to the idea of an Independent Scotland?

    263. wullie says:

      Dr Jim says:
      I have read that a significant number of English hospitals are on BLACK ALERT. Meaning they cannot cope on a day to day basis.The only time BALCK ALERT would be used is in the event of a war.

    264. Dr Jim says:

      @Wullie 1:50pm

      Did you mean you’ve read that Wullie? if so Wow!

    265. sassenach says:

      Dr Jim @ 1-44pm

      You almost sound surprised!!

      Fluffy, my own local MP (Gawd help me), could do policy somersaults before he was out of the womb. A more obsequious critter would be impossible to find, yet ne’er a week goes by without his mugshot in the local paper.
      Must be so embarrassing now going round the constituency when he’s been fired – only ever been to my house once at election time (with the Mooth in attendance), they both were sent packing!

    266. Dr Jim says:

      Read a great answer to a Twitter Yoon trolling the FM

      The guy said *Why are you complaining about the FM she’s just doing what me and the majority instructs her to do that’s her job*

    267. Dr Jim says:

      @sassenach 2:03pm

      I’m really tempted to do a Stu joke about whether Mundell’s changed his mind about anything more personal

      But I can’t afford the court costs

    268. sassenach says:

      Dr Jim
      LOL

    269. Cubby says:

      Silver Darling@1.08pm

      I agree that the shift in thinking is the key point from Jenkins article. But…….” the factual errors are almost incidental”. Sorry cannot agree with this comment. Facts and the truth are important. Very important. We have been held prisoner in this UK Union for so long due to a barrage of lies and misrepresentation. If we did not challenge them we would not be here we are today – a majority wanting independence.

      I have had to live with Britnat lies coming from all directions all my life. Basically had enough of their crap. Perhaps if you have only seen the lies in recent years you may not feel so strongly and I can understand that.

    270. Mac says:

      The quickening

      – When the mother feels the baby in the womb for the first time (Our wee Scotland)

      – When you cut off the head of something evil and it gives you power (Tory Westminster)

      – The Heartbeat you feel when you see hopes materialise. (The signs of a watershed)

      Independence is coming.

    271. call me dave says:

      Was on shortbread a wee while back:
      ——————————————————
      The most senior official in the Scottish Labour party has stepped down.

      General Secretary Brian Roy said he was leaving to pursue a new challenge after five years in the post.

    272. Capella says:

      Finally got the Iain Martin Times article to archive. Took hours – must have been working a pixel at minute:

      http://archive.fo/lcuJu

    273. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      SilverDarling @ 13:08,

      I couldn’t agree more. It’s a useful opportunity to “see oorsels’ as ithers see us”. And interesting to discover that (even) they see things developing as we see them developing.

      Golfnut @ 13:37,

      I don’t read Jenkins’ own prescription as a play for federalism, rather more like the Anglo-Irish solution (Common Travel Area etc.). We should surely welcome such proposals because they neuter the likes of Margit Curran’s “separated from kith and kin” nonsense last time. An interesting hint there though of a wished-for currency union – maybe even he is tacitly admitting the danger of a Pound without Scottish support! =grin=

      I do however anticipate, and have said so before, that the first response of London to a yes majority delivered in IR2 may be a belated sooper-dooper UltraDevoMax alternative offer, in the hope of creating enough diversion to stall a complete break. To which we should give the same reply as McAuliffe gave at Bastogne in 1944.

    274. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – what has Labour done to earn the smear “anti semitic”? They recognised Palestine as a state at the UN. That was when Ed Miliband, son of a Jewish immigrant, lampooned in the right wing press for failing to eat a bacon sandwich gracefully (geddit?), took the decision to support Palestine’s claim.

      Famous Jewish Labour supporters publicly resigned from the party e.g. Maureen Lipman, and suggested they might have to flee to Israel for protection.

      Although Labour has lost some members over the years, they are still the largest political party in Europe and their income from membership fees dwarfs every other UK party. Since Corbyn became leader, their membership income has trebled.

      As with the SNP and Scottish Independence, the MSM are incapale of telling the truth. The closer we are to an election, the louder the propaganda drum beats.

    275. SilverDarling says:

      @Cubby 1.08 pm

      I don’t know what you are trying to say? Maybe I just react differently. Growing up under Glasgow run Labour and a working life in public service means I have had to deal with the consequences of ‘the lies’ practically and emotionally, often being driven to despair dealing with the suffering they cause.

      If it is Top Trumps for devotion to your cause you win, I cannot hope to compete with your hard line stance and bitterness.

      I am at a loss as to what you get from this unrelenting antagonism and criticism of others who want Independence here.

      We will agree to disagree though, as ever.

    276. Petra says:

      From Nana’s links:-

      The #IndyRef2 scare stories have already started. Here’s a handy Bullshit Bingo for you to print off and keep at home.

      https://twitter.com/LoveEUToo/status/1159386548972019712

      …………………………

      Thread below makes for grim reading’

      ”1/9 Since trade associations and organisations are now starting to leak what they told the Government under gagging orders I may as well join in… last year I had over an hour of conference call with one of the big four Pharmaceutical firms manufacturing in the UK.”

      ”What amazes me most is the lack of investigative reporting exposing all of this. Nothing from the BBC, very little from Channel 4 and the papers.” Surprise, surprise.

      https://twitter.com/JJHTweets/status/1159400295450980354

      ………………………………..

      ‘What are freeports? Explainer here.’

      ”The UK could create freeports as a member of the EU. Indeed, the UK has previously been home to several freeports, including Liverpool, Southampton, the Port of Tilbury and Glasgow Prestwick Airport. There was a total of seven freeports between 1984 and 2012, when the UK legislation that established their use was not renewed.”

      ”In April 2019 the European Parliament called for freeports to be scrapped across the EU as a result of a report on tax evasion and money laundering. The report argues that freeports provide operators “with a safe and widely disregarded storage space, where trade can be conducted untaxed and ownership can be concealed.” The lack of scrutiny on imports means that high-value items like art, for example, can be bought and easily stored in freeports without the kind of checks and controls they would normally face.”

      http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/freeports-and-free-zones

    277. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 2.24
      Absolutely agree Cubby and more than that I found the last few sentences chilling…
      That Westminster should start planning for a “soft independence” now!…. EH…..
      Movement and Currency …. Oh aye….
      I’m mindful of these type of arrangements that kept the South of Ireland pretty tied to the UK and not as prosperous as it could have been for decades.
      Also..
      There’s Currency in there too?
      We all know that their currency is in the shitter and as far as I can tell we don’t want a current Union anymore.
      It may have been in our interests in 2014 but they would have to do a power of persuading to the Scottish People to let Holyrood agree to it now…

      I’d take bets the next thing up will be joint Defence, with Westminster as the lead partner and the Base at Faslane not only preserved, but Preserved Rent Free too… Everything staying pretty much the same except the Scottish part not having to join Foreign Wars… Watch This space….

      This so called “soft Independence” thing will take watching !
      I don’t think there’s any such thing. It’s just a Westminster wish list if they cannot keep the Union in it’s current form.

      This is no a Trade deal we are leaving or adjusting. There is no half way house and, there cannot be with a Westminster Parliament who holds itself to be Sovereign with the ability to make or unmake any and all laws.
      There is only Independence and Trade deals not, a mish mash of both.
      We should never forget that an Independent Scotland is in direct competition with England for business, we are neighbours, and yes , that’s fine, but we are also competitors. We should be very careful not to the our own hands!!

    278. Dr Jim says:

      Unionists are particularly angry at Glasgow being chosen to host the UN climate change summit

      They don’t like the EU
      They don’t like the UN
      They don’t like Scotland
      They don’t like Ireland

      But mostly they don’t like the FM or Scotland being liked by any of those places that represent about half the world between them

      And who is it’s got the problem then?

    279. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      The #IndyRef2 scare stories have already started. Here’s a handy Bullshit Bingo for you to print off and keep at home.

      https://twitter.com/LoveEUToo/status/1159386548972019712

      Absolutely brilliant. That would be great printed on postcards. On the counter side could be a website which debunks each one (as suggested up page)

    280. Colin Alexander says:

      @Petra. Thank you.

      I received a prompt response (within a few hours) from an SNP MEP regarding my complaint to the EU Ombudsman (which I also forwarded to the SNP MEP).

      Here is the SNP MEP’s response in full, minus the name:

      “Thank you for getting in touch, though I am afraid I can deal with this pretty quickly, you’re not at the races.

      I believe passionately in the sovereignty of the people of Scotland, which is why I have devoted nigh on 20 years of my life to build the case to re-establish it.

      But the brass tacks of the matter are these: the UK government triggered Article 50, this was subject to litigation in the Gina Miller case, and was endorsed by the UK House of Commons. As far as the European Council is concerned it has been validly triggered.

      I appreciate, keenly, your point about Scotland having voted overwhelmingly to remain, indeed it is a point I have been making on a several times a day basis. Where that alters the politics, it does not alter the law. Scotland is part of the EU by virtue of being part of the UK. As the EU referendum Bill was going through the Commons the SNP MPs tried to amend the Bill to incorporate a “majority across the UK but also a majority within Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland” element to the referendum, and this attempt was defeated. It was, with all its ruinous consequences and despite our best efforts, a UK vote.

      I share your frustration. I am afraid however that the European Council having accepted the Article 50 letter, the Commission was obliged to accept it also, and indeed had little appetite or legal standing to look into it further. The European Ombudsman has no role in this whatsoever and I agree with her refusal of your complaint on the grounds she has no jurisdiction.

      I have, three years ago, examined every angle that we could use in Brussels to trip this up, and I have not found any. We have a political argument, and indeed a very public case study in how the UK actually works – emphatically against Scotland’s interests. As this plays out the people of Scotland are paying close attention, and I believe are examining the case for independence afresh, as are we updating the case in the light of developments.

      I am committed to independence in Europe, and believe stopping Brexit for the whole of the UK gives us the best scenario to do that. If however England is hell bent on dragging us out then I believe having seen that the SNP genuinely has exhausted all options within the UK to keep Scotland in the EU, the people of Scotland will be ready for independence given a credible case, and indeed the practical advantages of EU membership.

      I applaud your efforts but I’m afraid I do not see they will go any further.

      All best”

    281. Cubby says:

      Silver Darling@3.06pm

      Sorry I don’t get why you have reacted in this way. In fact I don’t recognise any of your statements.

      What am I am saying is that recognising that the facts and truth matter seems a straightforward point to me. Seems a simple point. Not a personal attack on you. So why the aggressive response?
      What are you agreeing to disagree with me? Are you saying that the facts and the truth don’t matter?

      It appears to me that you have just jumped to the conclusion this is a personal attack on you. Sorry but you are wrong. Just made a point. It seems an overreaction.

      ” as ever” don’t remember when we agreed to disagree in the past.

    282. Petra says:

      Isn’t it amazing that on the one hand Scottish Labour (Tories and LibDems) tell us that Westminster will dictate if we get a Section 30 order or not as the power to do so lies with Westminster, not Nicola Sturgeon care of Holyrood, Edinburgh, Scotland. However on the other hand it would seem that the power to do so, or more so not, now lies with Richard Leonard, care of Holyrood, Edinburgh, Scotland. Formerly from Westow, Yorkshire and still seemingly suffering from an English sense of entitlement, imo.

      ‘Labour splits erupt as MSPs accuse John McDonnell of ‘undermining’ independence policy.’

      …”We are clear Labour’s position on Scotland’s future is a decision for Scottish Labour, which the UK party must accept. We expect all Scottish Labour MPs and MSPs to vote in accordance with party policy.”

      http://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/john-mcdonnell/news/105813/labour-splits-erupt-msps-accuse

      ………………………

      ‘Canada’s Brexit talks with the U.K.: There are none.’

      ..”Her (Chrystia Freeland) silence, abetted by Canadian reporters who needed fresh clips on top-line stories so they had no time to ask about Freeland’s guest, permitted her to decorously avoid saying out loud what Raab knows well: That formal talks between Canadian and British officials over a post-Brexit trading arrangement ground to a halt weeks ago. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, Britain will offer radically reduced tariffs to all comers. Canadian officials, reasonably, decided there’s no need to offer concessions in return for what would be essentially automatic access to the U.K. market.

      Nor did she have to add that last year, Canada was the 17th global destination for U.K. exports; that four of the top five destinations, and seven of the top 10, are EU member states; that exports to those EU destinations total nearly $180 billion, while exports to Canada stand at $7.3 billion; and that increased market access for Canada would hardly compensate for chaotic reductions in access to the far vaster, nearer European market.”..

      https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/canadas-brexit-talks-with-the-u-k-there-are-none/

      …………………………….

      ‘Cillian Murphy offers scathing assessment of Brexit and the treatment of Ireland.’

      “Listen, if you and I are in a club and there are 28 members of the club and I decided to leave, why would I get preferential treatment? Doesn’t make any sense. And if Ireland is a member of that club and me leaving undermines their whole set-up and the peace they have, it doesn’t make any sense, and it’s not equitable or fair and it’s because the whole thing was sold on a bunch of misinformation.”

      http://www.irishpost.com/news/cillian-murphy-offers-scathing-assessment-brexit-treatment-ireland-169850

      From Nana’s links.

    283. Cubby says:

      Lizg@3.41pm

      I agree.

      Independence lite/ soft independence – seems to me what he was punting was a possible VOW mark2. Hopefully nobody falls for it.

      Full independence and nothing else.

    284. Dr Jim says:

      Bombshell Bombshell Bombshell………

      Commons library (ref 98/8/56 EP/rjt) based on Scotlands GDP per capita Scotland would occupy 7th place in the OECD wealth league, a second table showed the UK was in 16th place

      The UK Government refuses to release those figures publicly

      Above is the reference and it is undisputed

    285. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 15:41,

      I don’t see your problem with freedom of movement within the UK post Irish independence, or indeed the (not mentioned) ability of the Irish to vote in UK elections. The latter wasn’t reciprocated in RoI, IIRC (for obvious reasons). Wider freedom of movement is what the EU subsequently offered in its turn. Being independent does not mean “raising the drawbridge”, surely? That’s a Leaver meme.

      Back in the day, the Irish could hardly avoid linkage of the Punt with the Pound, and that was arguably a mixed blessing. Though if independence is to be worth anything at all, some of the consequences must surely land on the shoulders of Irish governments as well? Blaming the other for all your post-indy problems is hardly convincing.

      One might in fact conclude from events that Ireland didn’t truly blossom economically until becoming member of both the EU and the Eurozone, and thus became considerably more free of UK dominance. So much for “loss of sovereignty”. (A practical lesson that at least some in the independence movement seem reluctant to acknowledge.)

    286. Petra says:

      @ Colin Alexander says at 4:10 pm …. ”I received a prompt response (within a few hours) from an SNP MEP regarding my complaint to the EU Ombudsman (which I also forwarded to the SNP MEP).”

      Well I have to say that I applaud your efforts too, Colin, in pursuing this matter so diligently and hope that the excellent response from your SNP MEP will go some way to highlighting what many of us have tried to put across to ”others” on here and that is that:-

      ”the brass tacks of the matter are these: the UK government triggered Article 50, this was subject to litigation in the Gina Miller case, and was endorsed by the UK House of Commons. As far as the European Council is concerned it has been validly triggered.

      I appreciate, keenly, your point about Scotland having voted overwhelmingly to remain, indeed it is a point I have been making on a several times a day basis. Where that alters the politics, **it does not alter the law.** Scotland is part of the EU by virtue of being part of the UK. As the EU referendum Bill was going through the Commons the SNP MPs tried to amend the Bill to incorporate a “majority across the UK but also a majority within Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland” element to the referendum, and this attempt was defeated. It was, with all its ruinous consequences and despite our best efforts, a UK vote.”..

    287. Cubby says:

      BBC Reporting Scotland

      Independent report states that the High Schools in North Lanarkshire are safe. The avenue for criticising Scot gov closed off. However, North Lanarkshire council comes in for criticism. However, it is not SNP controlled so that avenue is closed off as well. No mention by BBC that it is a Labour controlled council so still gives some people the option to think it is the SNP. That’s how it works start the reporting on this matter by criticising SNP/Scotgov and let it in sink in. Do not say SNP/ Scotgov blameless. Certainly don’t say one of the Britnat parties are to blame.

    288. Heart of Galloway says:

      Met on old friend outside the local Co-op today. I hadn’t seen her for 30 years or so until and until she recently lived in Carlisle.

      Cindy still works in England but this year moved to Gretna – the closest point in Scotland to her place of work over the Border.

      “Is that so you can vote in the next independence referendum?” I asked, half in jest.
      “No’ exactly, but it was one reason. And it’ll be ‘aye’.”

      The day before I had a conversation with a previous manager, who despite my best entreaties voted no (with much reluctance) last time. Like a huge proportion of those who did likewise he immediately regretted his decision and voted SNP in 2015.

      Now he is a committed yes voter and, he informed me, fellow professionals in his circle are of a like mind.

      Asked why, he gave three main reasons – the jaw-dropping incompetence of the UKGov, egregious anti-Europeanism and supercilious disregard of Scotland and its national interest.

      Then there was a third interesting conversation, this time with a scientific engineer of some repute, who since moving from England has busied himself with the climate emergency movement.

      He voted no in 2014 but now says he is “swinging steadily towards yes”, not least because of the Scottish Government’s policies on tackling climate change.

      I know the above are just three more straws in the wind of change blowing through this dear land of ours.

      But I am talking to a lot of people, with my wee yes badge ‘n’ all. And from these exchanges one thing is as clear as the waters of Loch Trool – that that wind is blowing in only one direction – ours.

      As I said earlier somewhere on here, believing in independence as a positive force for good is becoming infectious.

      And the corollary is, IMHO, that declaring for yes is becoming not just acceptable but NORMAL. This, when the time comes, as it will soon, will become our most priceless asset.

      Equally, in Scotland these days advocating a ‘no’ is to appear blinkered, narrow-minded and embittered. Naturally the UKOK Falangists won’t mind that one bit – nor will British nationalist types or Scotland’s nasty wee tribe of DUP wannabees.

      But – there are many, many others of a very shaky unionist persuasion who wish to buy into the Caledonian feel-good factor – to which the bleak dependency promoted by the Alister Jacks and Moothy Ruths of this world are the polar opposite.

      Ditto, Boris Johnson’s little helpers in the shape of Jackie Baillie, Dicky Lenny et al.

      Maybe a catchy wee slogan or two would be good as we shake hands in the parting with those we seek to persuade.

      “May YES be with you, my friend”. How about that one for a start? Other suggestions on a postcard please.

    289. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 16:22,

      I don’t think it was, myself, more an “orderly withdrawal” arrangement. Which given the considerable degrees of mutual residency, is a good thing, surely?

      The only obvious exception being the currency thing. After the debacle of 2014, that is a political dead duck. Like you, I wouldn’t touch that with a bargepole.

      I wouldn’t be surprised, though, if there was some attempt at a Vow2. But who would propose it, and would they have the proverbial snowball’s chance of being believed?

    290. Petra says:

      BOMBSHELL right enough Dr Jim (4:24pm). More data for us to use to blowup the Unionist’s wee myths.

      …”Scotland would occupy 7th place in the OECD wealth league, a second table showed the UK was in 16th place.”

      PS You should submit that info to the National’s letters page, better still phone them up and ask them to make it front page news.

    291. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 4.26
      I don’t have a problem with freedom of movement… Sorry I wasn’t clear…

      Freedom of movement on this Island will always have to be worked out.
      It doesn’t have to become part of a package of a soft Independence.
      My problem is the language of Brexit creeping in to the issue and it being portrayed eventually as an agreement we need to give something up for… We don’t..or a deal breaker… it isn’t
      Freedom of movement stands alone as an issue we sort out as two independent nations would.
      And I think and hope that it will pretty much stay as it is.
      There’s no real reason why it couldn’t!
      My worry is allowing Westminster to turn it into a barging chip!

    292. Dr Jim says:

      Did you know in 1997 in a question from the then MP Alex Salmond, Sec of State William Waldergrave admitted that Scotland paid in to the UK £27 billion more than it ever recieved back

      They couldn’t get away with hiding that sort of information today, but they did then, and much more besides

      Who knows how much that has increased by in the last 23 years

    293. manandboy says:

      https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/09/no-10-cancels-staff-leave-raising-possibility-of-snap-election

      “No 10 cancels staff leave, hinting at likelihood of snap election
      Boris Johnson’s chief of staff tells advisers not to book holidays before 31 October”

    294. Petra says:

      @ Cubby says at 4:34 pm … ”BBC Reporting Scotland – Independent report states that the High Schools in North Lanarkshire are safe.”…

      Well the BBC will not be one bit pleased about that Cubby for more reasons than one. Did you read a post from Dr Jim earlier pointing out that the BBC had the audacity to send their experts in to take samples without getting permission from the Council?

      ……………………..

      @ galamcennalath says at 4:00 pm …. ”Absolutely brilliant. That would be great printed on postcards. On the counter side could be a website which debunks each one (as suggested up page).

      https://twitter.com/LoveEUToo/status/1159386548972019712

      Brilliant right enough, galamcennalath. It would make for a great wee flyer, wouldn’t it.

    295. Cubby says:

      Robert J Sutherland@4.37pm

      Nothing wrong with an orderly withdrawal and if that is what he meant then fine as long as the end result is full independence and not some trap towards independence lite.

    296. Terry callachan says:

      The UK govt has had an agreement for freedom of movement with people living in UK and south Ireland for decades

      They also have social security agreements where people from UK and south of Ireland can claim social security benefits in both

      Can’t see that changing once Scotland is independent

    297. Petra says:

      Sooking up Johnston’s backside now. Just how low will Mundell go? In fact can he actually go any lower than publicly and brazenly selling out Scotland? Happy to see around 100,000 Scots losing their jobs? Just wonder if we’ll see his mealy-mouthed mate Davidson doing another U-turn now?

      Stu Campbell ..”Jesus, the incredible hypocrisy of this feeble little excuse for a human.”

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1159741261491912705?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

      …………………………

      Check out Nana’s links here.

      https://indyref2.space/category/nanas-links/

    298. Republicofscotland says:

      Michelle Mone and the unionist media portraying Scotland as poor.

      “Michelle Mone’s daughter in ‘poverty porn’ trip to Glasgow’s east end set to air on Channel 4”

      http://archive.fo/s1k1p

    299. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim @4.24pm

      A couple of questions for clarity – not a personal attack as some posters seem to want to portray anything I post.

      1. I assume the UK position includes Scotland – do you know if that is correct?

      2. Does the Scotland position include oil and gas revenues? I think it may not.

    300. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 4.16
      Sounds very much like they are casting around to find someone, anyone who has the Authority to forbid a section 30 order.
      Here’s the thing though…. Do we actually want one now?

      If I were a British Nationalist in the current circumstances,I’d arrange to reluctantly agree a “legally binding” referendum.
      Why..
      Because it’s recently been demonstrated in Court that had the EU referendum been a legally binding one, the Court would have ordered a re run because of the behaviour of vote leave.

      So in a legally binding referendum all BT has to do is break the rules and we’d have to go again.
      That “again”would take us beyond 2021 and the Holyrood election,and waiting till after 2021 seems to be very important to the British!
      They have had many many people saying it, and finding reasons for it , for a good wee while now!

      Mibbi this motion to back up the failure of a properly held referendum with an election result stand in for it is no such a bad idea!

    301. Petra says:

      @ Phydaux says at 10:16 am… ”I would like to add the “science” of eugenics to Breeks’ list of markers for signs of fascism. It was Francis Galton, Darwin’s cousin, who termed the new “science” of eugenics, meaning “well born”. Our ancestors were deemed to be of sub-standard stock, hence the Clearances as but one example. “Reproduction must be managed to ensure that the ”best” people have most offspring while the poor (or those referred to as the “ feeble minded “ ) should be discouraged or even prevented from having children. “2 child cap, anyone? A brutal welfare policy which has literally killed thousands of our fellow humans with debilitating and complex health issues, anyone? Nazi ideology writ large. Removing peoples compassion for those less fortunate than themselves is a key component of all controlling regimes.”..

      Excellent post Phydaux and the signs of their belief in ”eugenics” can clearly be seen in the poem that Boris Johnston published when he was editor the Spectator Magazine.

      This poem in fact would make for another brilliant wee flyer, imo.

      ……………………

      ‘Friendly Fire’ – By James Michie.

      The Scotch – what a verminous race!

      Canny, pushy, chippy, they’re all over the place,

      Battening off us with false bonhomie,

      Polluting our stock, undermining our economy.

      Down with sandy hair and knobbly knees!

      Suppress the tartan dwarves and the Wee Frees!

      Ban the kilt, the skean-dhu and the sporran

      As provocatively, offensively foreign!

      It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified

      To pen them in a ghetto on the other side.

      I would go further. The nation deserves not merely isolation

      But comprehensive extermination.

      We must not flinch from a solution.

      (I await legal prosecution.)

    302. Robert Peffers says:

      @
      Mac says: 9 August, 2019 at 11:50 am:

      I ask, because if there was a big file / database of high quality answers and rebuttals, we could all cut and paste and post without retyping every time.”

      I’m not having the best of luck today- this is my third try at posting this information to three different Wingers_

      Here we go again – Right Mac – go the the top of any Wings page.

      Right across the page is a thick Black line with headings on it in white. Of particular interest is the heading, “REFERENCE”.

      Scroll down under REFERENCE to the sub-heading, “Features”, and you will find many articles that are well worth printing out and using just as you have asked for — and I’m tired of posting that information but this is my third attempt to post it today. The first one was put into moderation and the next two simply vanished as I was typing them. Ach! Weel! third forth time lucky?

    303. manandboy says:

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/08/the-unanswerable-case/#comments

      Craig finishes by saying, “I am entirely at the end of my patience. It really is time that we claimed our Independence and stopped this slavish adherence to the laws of the Imperial state which seeks to continue its leeching out of our resources.”

      I am sure that many have arrived, as I myself have on occasions, at the place where our store of patience is either very, or almost completely gone.
      However, like the Captain & crew who are desperate to set sail and are fired up with an almost irresistible urgency, they are compelled to accept that the state of the tide, which, if out, as with Independence, places unarguable limits on their impatience.

      But the tide won’t always be out.

      Not long now.

    304. Robert Peffers says:

      @Golfnut says: 9 August, 2019 at 12:02 pm:

      … that article is a pretty good example of a very well educated individual not having a clue about the constitutional makeup of the UK.”

      Aye! There’s a lot of it about just now, Golfnut. I blame the English Public School system for most of it but that doesn’t explain the same ignorance among Scottish unionists – or does it?

    305. manandboy says:

      Typo, should read ‘very low’.

    306. Petra says:

      @ Liz g says at 5:11 pm – ”Petra – Sounds very much like they are casting around to find someone, anyone who has the Authority to forbid a section 30 order. Here’s the thing though…. Do we actually want one now? If I were a British Nationalist in the current circumstances, I’d arrange to reluctantly agree a “legally binding” referendum. Why.. Because it’s recently been demonstrated in Court that had the EU referendum been a legally binding one, the Court would have ordered a re run because of the behaviour of vote leave. So in a legally binding referendum all BT has to do is break the rules and we’d have to go again.”…

      Good point Liz. Hopefully the Unionist cabal are not as smart as people like you. More so let’s hope that they don’t read Wings where they’d actually get an ”education.”

    307. Sean McNulty says:

      cirsium says:
      9 August, 2019 at 1:19 pm
      @Mac, 10.58
      We all understand FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) but is there anywhere a list of Scottish Independence – Frequently Stated Falsehoods and the opposite well worded rebuttal?

      Try the WBB. Many of the falsehoods from 2014 are being repeated now. I used it the other day in responding to a claim that jobs will be lost if WMD are moved from the Clyde. See the WoS Reference section.
      ——————–

      The WBB is essential, obviously. But the movement also needs an online equivalent that’s far more comprehensive, so it covers every possible question/lie that crops up. Could also have different length of answers — some short and snappy, others more detailed and closely argued. For Yessers to have this resource on their phones would be pretty useful.

      Tbh Wings and other sites have probably done most of the hard work already. Just needs people with the relevant web skills to clearly categorise it all.

    308. Robert Peffers says:

      @Bob Mack says: 9 August, 2019 at 1:08 pm:

      ” … It seems that these media experts have it in their mind that Scotland is dependent on England’s benificence. Without England to hold us up we could not possibly survive.”

      Perhaps this article from the Wings Reference Section might help Wingers to prove to those who believe Scotland has been in any way dependent upon England that they are wrong:-

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/

      Westminster has been ripping Scotland off since the Treaty of Union ink was still wet.

    309. CameronB Brodie says:

      So Deborah Orr feels that a practice of constitution law that allows one of the co-signatory nations to the Union, to have it’s international legal standing diminished by the other co-signatory nation, is compatible with liberal democracy? I suppose it takes all sorts.

    310. call me dave says:

      Major power failures have been reported across large areas of the UK, affecting trains, airports and traffic lights.

      London and the South East of England etc etc…Jings!

      I hope Nicola hasnae put the interconnector switch off… 🙂

    311. I have been listening to lbc for years but 10am is switch of time aye that Obrien I can’t stand the way he interrupts his callers he has no manners and likes to think he has brains I like a proper debate not a one sided one

    312. Cubby says:

      Watching the Ladies Scottish Open golf from North Berwick. Beautiful views and nice weather -sun shining – from beautiful Scotland.

      Spotted a big oil tanker in the background. I wonder if the Britnats watching the coverage, who still believe there is no oil left, think it is a cruise ship. Or do they just not think at all.

    313. Dan says:

      @call me dave at 5:44 pm

      Better hope Europe disnae flick the switches off either or England will be selling raw jam. ?
      Scroll to the right of dashboard to see the various interconnects.

      https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

      I’m currently boiling some of my beetroot to pickle, but it’s cooking on the woodburning stove so power cut will not effect me.

    314. DerekM says:

      What is soft independence i will tell you what it is,it is them trying to save their backsides.

      They are not talking about soft independence for Scotland they are talking about soft independence for England.

      If you think for one second these people have your best interest at heart then you are wrong and as always it is all about what is in the best interest of England.

      They know they can not stop us but they will try and delay the inevitable for as long as we allow them.

      So the question i ask is do you wish to save England at the cost of the Scottish people and spend another 10 years waiting until the union is at an end?

      Because that is what soft independence means.

    315. wullie says:

      D.R. Jim

      http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=NHS+engkand+trists+black+alerts&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

      the above refers to 2018. I have not searched for any updated figures maybe they are being hidden who knows

    316. wullie says:

      good grief I removed the http bit
      utmost apologies

    317. CameronB Brodie says:

      That Simon Jenkins appears to have the measure of the constitutional crises, though he lets himself down by suggesting England subsidises Scotland. See, the English based English aren’t all of one feather, and support for the full-English Brexit is diminishing. Still, the weakness of Scotland’s legal protection from English nationalism, has now been exposed. British nationalism is now naked and vulnerable to critical ideological deconstruction and critique.

      Derrida Reappraised: Deconstruction, Critique
      and Emancipation in Management Studies

      Abstract

      Derrida has been significantly misread by many management scholars. The paper argues that his work is not ‘postmodernist’; further, that Habermas’ (1987) influential critique of Derrida’s views on truth and politics have led to widespread but misleading views of his critical credentials. Although Habermas is not entirely misguided, a defence of Derrida is provided that sets out the potential for his work to inform management scholars who wish to provide emancipatory critique

      eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/2553/1/yms_workingpaper1.pdf

    318. Cubby says:

      STV News at Six

      Same as Reporting Scotland.

      Both schools are safe but North Lanarkshire council heavily criticised. No mention that it is a labour controlled council. If it was SNP controlled council they would be all over it like a rash.

    319. Petra says:

      ‘Independence for Scotland is inevitable – we need a plan for it.’

      ..”Blimey, the conversation is shifting from it’ll never happen to what if it does?”

      https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1159876256185356288?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

      ………………………………….

      ‘Independence for Scotland is inevitable – we need a plan for it’- Simon Jenkins of the Guardian.

      Apologies if this has been posted already.

      …”Sooner or later, London will be forced to grow up and recognise that it has sacrificed the right to rule the British Isles. Ireland has gone and Scotland will clearly go one day. Whitehall should take the initiative and prepare a fiscal and legislative independence package; one that withdraws Scots MPs from Westminster and sees Scotland rejoin the EU, but keeps travel, currency and citizenship ties in place.”..

      http://archive.is/lV3n9#selection-1801.0-1809.27

    320. Breeks says:


      DerekM says:
      9 August, 2019 at 6:13 pm

      ….So the question i ask is do you wish to save England at the cost of the Scottish people and spend another 10 years waiting until the union is at an end?

      Because that is what soft independence means.

      Soft Independence might cover anything from Federalism to another vow, but it might also include options which genuinely are in Scotland’s interests.

      I’ve recently argued Scotland could do worse than present itself as a Trading intermediary between a Brexited England and the EU, conditional upon England readily accepting the principle of Scotland’s Independence, with Scotland becoming a sovereign EU Member State.

      It occurs to me that terminating the Union by mutual consent rather than unilateral initiative would make Scotland’s Independence a much less acrimonious affair, and international recognition would be unequivocally guaranteed, and agreed very quickly. Domestically too, an amicable dissolution of the Union will greatly diffuse the potential for Unionist disruption or violence after the event. If these conditions could be achieved, we’d be mad not to take them, because the alternative is decades of dispute in Constitutional Law Courts fighting Tooth and nail over 300 years of joint enterprise.

      Give England good reason not to fear Scottish Independence and who knows what progressive opportunities arise. Ok, Very few if we’re dealing with a Tory buffoon like Johnson or Rees-Mogg, but suppose instead we found ourselves negotiating with someone moderate and progressive “like” a political James O’Brien who is sincere about finding a lasting and stable future relationship.

      Would that be Independence Lite? Maybe. But my instincts, which are thoroughly and unquestionably pro Independence, are telling me we have more to gain from an amicable divorce where we can still be friends, rather than an acrimonious dispute which stokes bitterness and resentment which might linger for generations.

      England is currently in deep doo-doo. Europe I suspect would like to avoid having a piratical deregulated maverick economy on it’s doorstep. Scotland can give them both a constructive resolution to build a constructive future upon, which will hopefully prevent bloodshed in Ireland. The downside for Scotland is continued involvement with “rude-boy” England, but for services which we have sovereign control over, and for which we can charge a commission.

      For good or bad, the English are our neighbours, and they won’t disappear into thin air once Scotland goes Independent. If we help them avert economic catastrophe and ostracism, they might even be grateful about it.

    321. DerekM says:

      Breeks

      One word do not take offense Bollocks

    322. North chiel says:

      “ Call me Dave @ 0544 p.m. , no she’s only been changing a fuse .

    323. manandboy says:

      INDEPENDENCE IS NORMAL – (for the hard of listening.)

      Independence is normal. The whole world knows that, except for the English Ruling Class, which loves free money from their Colonies – like the oil, gas & renewable energy from Scotland.

      Scotland has been deprived of its Independence since 1707, by England.

      But now, it is time.

    324. Bobp says:

      Dan 6.11pm same as that dan, the wife and i being campers we have a gas bottle run fridge,cooker and heater. So prepared down here (england)for power cuts after brexit. Yes, the worst is certainly to come. Hope Scotland seize the day.

    325. ahundredthidiot says:

      Breeks

      You’re getting pishtalker of the week award

    326. Dr Jim says:

      @Cubby 5.07pm

      They make no mention of exclusion of Scotland in their UK figure so one would have to assume they count the overall inclusive UK figure, you can see I imagine where this goes in that if you could delete the separate Scottish % from the UK % it would show that the UK figure is boosted by the strength of the Scottish numbers and that the Scottish % actually prevents the UK from slipping further down the table

      That would be my estimation as to why the UK doesn’t make general release of numbers like this, like most things that appear to favour Scotland these things shall likely forever remain shrouded in mystery until Scotland has long since left Westminster behind, but maybe then it gives them enough time to rewrite a Scottish *brief history of time*

      My thanks to Stephen Hawking for the pun, he might have liked that

    327. The highly respected `Global Sustainability Institute`, full of experts and scientists, who`s mission is,

      `Our mission is to establish an internationally significant centre of excellence`

      told the worlds press that UK oil will run out in 5.2 years

      this was reported in the Independent newspaper by the diligent hack James Vincent,

      on 16th May 2014,

      so according to the
      `highly respected `Global Sustainability Institute`, full of experts and scientists,`

      our oil ran out last week.

    328. Dr Jim says:

      I don’t know about *Soft Independence* but I’ve had soft toilet paper

      Is it like that

    329. Dan says:

      With regard to the power cuts this evening. I noticed the second phase of the London Power Tunnels project started earlier this year.
      The projects involves some seriously impressive and inevitably costly engineering works if folk care to check it out.
      IIRC the first phase was approximately 1 billion quid and the second around 750 million.
      This will no doubt be part funded by the UK Government under the remit of “National Infrastructure Expenditure”.
      A quick search turned up the following link. It mentions several large projects in England.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/creating-market-certainty-and-encouraging-strategic-investment

      Presume projects covered by devolved powers or Barnett Consequentials will be a factor, but does anybody know if the overall UK National Infrastructure expenditure has a mechanism to ensure all “regions” of the UK get proportional funding for important projects in their respective areas?

    330. asklair says:

      Listened to it all, would recommend, positive narrative and positive interviewer.

    331. cynicalHighlander says:

      Dr Jim says:
      9 August, 2019 at 8:21 pm

      I don’t know about *Soft Independence* but I’ve had soft toilet paper

      Is it like that

      Aye covered in shite.

    332. cynicalHighlander says:

      Dr Jim

      response in moderation, I wonder why!

    333. Dr Jim says:

      I did notice something the Britnat stupid always confuse themselves with in the Simon Jenkins Guardian piece

      Mr Jenkins seemed to imagine in his article that HM the Queen would have to be told she was no longer to be Queen of Scotland when Scotland becomes Independent

      I would hazard a guess there and say to Mr Jenkins she probably already knows that because she has never held the title of Queen of Scotland

      Queen of Scots Mr Jenkins, Queen of Scots, an entirely different role with an entirely different job description and one I might add that her Majesty has never upheld the conditions of said job description in her entire life

      She should have been fired a long time ago for not fulfilling the terms of her contract

    334. Cubby says:

      Scot Finlayson@8.17pm

      They must have read the same report that I read ( in 2014) from an Edinburgh Uni academic who said that the oil would run out in 5 years time. Laughable it was at the time but people would believe it because it was from Edinburgh uni.

      The Britnats have been saying it is just about finished since drilling started. Britnat media, politicians and “experts” all guilty of colluding with Westminster to rip off our resources.

      If the Mafia are stealing from you do you want to be friends with them or get as far away as possible.

    335. Dr Jim says:

      @cynicalHighlander 8:38pm

      I can see it so it must be OK

    336. DerekM says:

      Ottomanbo

      What do you know about the struggle the Scottish people have endured for over 300 years and who said i trusted the UN,i do however understand that Article 1 is international law and that Scotland is a UN member all be it in partnership with England and is an option we can try and use.

      So because of your personal hatred of the UN we should not try and use international law to free our country.

      Get a grip man.

    337. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dan
      I can’t substantiate this, but it is my experience that it is extremely difficult to achieve cost-effectiveness for trunk-road and motorway expenditure in Scotland, under the Treasury’s procedures and a one-size-fits-all appraisal method used in the UK. Road scheme appraisal has been improved through European Directive, to enable better consideration of local costs and impacts, influenced largely by British planning practice, ironically.

      I wrote my dissertation on this. It was pants but what can you do when your evidence is concealed under the Official Secrets Act?

    338. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim

      @8.17pm Thanks for the reply. I suspect the Scotland fig does NOT include oil/gas revenues as they tend to get classified as UK ex regio therefore the actual Scot position would be better in the table and the UK position ex Scotland would be even worse. I am also sure that after independence Scotland would move up the table.

      @8.39pm One of the factual errors I noted myself. He like so many do not seem to know about one monarch two monarchies. If the UK is terminated there is nothing to stop the Queen continuing as Queen of Scots – other than the Scots may not want her. This of course is different from people like Jenkins who just assume she is their Queen and the Scots ain’t having her after independence.

    339. @Cubby,

      I remember this from 2017,

      `Prof Roy Thompson of Edinburgh University’s school of Geosciences said an
      analysis of production decline in offshore fields showed the industry is entering
      its final decade.`

      challanged by the oil and gas industry,

      `Industry body Oil and Gas UK (OGUK) has challenged scientists’ gloomy
      prediction,
      OGUK chief executive Deirdre Michie said new capacity was still being added to
      the basin and that some of the largest fields will still be producing in 2050.`

      something stinks in the corrupt world of academia.

    340. Dr Jim says:

      We’ll leave Scotland says RBS

      But what the BBC and other news outlets don’t tell you is the reason RBS gave for moving their plaque from Scotland to who knows where in the event of Independence

      And the reason given by RBS *In the event of another banking crash Scotland might not have sufficient funds to bail out the banks*

      So RBS are saying they might try that stunt again when they busted their own banks and had the tax payer fork out to pay for it

      Scotland might just take the Icelandic view and jail the baskets

    341. Ottomanboi says:

      @DerekM
      I think you are the one who needs to get a grip, on the rather stark Realpolitik of the times.
      Btw neither Scotland nor England is a member of the UN, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is.
      The UN is a total waste of space, ask the peoples of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia, Sudan, ex Yougoslavia….

    342. Terry callachan says:

      I decided to have a look at Scotland in union and its followers on twitter earlier today just to see what they are talking about.
      There were so many of them talking about having no electricity

      I’ve just been reading that all the power cuts were in England , none in Scotland
      Gives a bit of a signal about where so many of the followers of Scotland in union live

    343. Dr Jim says:

      The media love to use pet *academics* to support their news agenda, and they depend on the naivety of the general public to believe that academics must be neutral in their deliberations because well they’re like teachers or something aren’t they

      Well just like teachers they have political beliefs and biasness towards or against any given subject or indeed loyalty to who might be paying them, but because of people’s memories going right back to childhood primary school time the public forgets that adults tell lies while simultaneously telling children it’s wrong to tell lies

      When you grow up children learn to tell more believable lies just like academics. it makes one appear far more knowledgable if one is convincing enough

      And you can get on the telly, bonus ball right there for extra cash

    344. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 8 .59
      That’s what I was thinking..
      Of course they’ll move … Move to where there’s 65 million daft enough to let their government provide bail outs.
      Any Holyrood government that tried that would be toast 🙂
      I do wonder though…. If we had that protected status thing!
      Could they keep “Scotland ” the name???
      That’s surely ours?

    345. Dan says:

      @Bobp at 8:07 pm

      Aye, some good old fashioned practical skills and knowledge is always a good thing to have.
      Well that’s the first phase of beetroot pickling successfully completed. Well chuffed my technique has improved as last year it got a bit messy and red to the point my kitchen looked like a murder scene.
      Think I’ve overdone the “Brexit” mitigation patch aka veg planting though.
      Past few weeks I’ve been giving away runner beans, corjettes, beetroots and carrots because there’s no way I can eat them at the rate they’re growing.
      Also totally scunnered with eating a kilo of chanterelles a week from my foraging exploits.
      Yesterday I whipped the shaws off 50 tattie plants so sorted for spud derived products for the foreseeable future.

      I’ve watched a load of fictional films and series that convey a dystopian future as society breaks down. Who’d have thought they would actually be useful reference material on how to survive in the former first world State called the UK…

      @DerekM
      After your response re. fishing a few days ago, I had a wee look at fish stripping / conservation. There was actually an older vid on YT about it on a river Carron project.
      Interesting subject. I’m guessing these days it will be a highly regulated and bureaucratic process to setup and carry out such practices?

    346. Terry callachan says:

      RBS is not a Scottish bank anymore ,it has Scotland in its name but that is all.
      No sad loss if it leaves Scotland and you can be sure it’s unlikely that RBS will leave Scotland and set up in England after Scottish independence because English people will be so angry that we have had the audacity to take control of our own affairs and become independence that they certainly will not be keen to do business with RBS.

      Banks are global now.
      They are all part of larger groups

      RBS went down the tubes when Margaret thatchers secretary for Scotland George younger became CEO of RBS he took it from being a good Scottish bank and set it on its course of collapse in the 2008 stock market crash he was chairman from 1991 to 2001 during which time it became one of the biggest banks in the world but as we found out later it was all built on a foundation of feathers and had to be bailed out by the taxpayer.

      RBS is still in the pockets of the tories in Westminster it has no allegiance to Scotland or its people.

    347. galamcennalath says:

      The UK economy contracted in the three months to June.

      Does anyone believe the three months to September won’t also show contraction?

      A recession is refined as contraction over two adjacent quarters.

      If Brexit goes ahead 31st October, the hit is going to be even greater.

      A BREXIT RECESSION IS HAPPENING

    348. Golfnut says:

      @ Liz G.

      I think its a Royal warrant, if true, it can be stripped by us.

    349. Breeks says:


      ahundredthidiot says:
      9 August, 2019 at 8:08 pm
      Breeks

      You’re getting pishtalker of the week award

      Well if it’s pish, looking after England’s interests is the reason the SNP has squandered three years dancing all around a UK Brexit / Article 50 revocation, and People’s Vote trying to stop Brexit, and getting absolutely NOTHING to show for it, when Brexit is giving Scotland the Constitutional Kryptonite to break the Union…

      Personally, I would rather have an England that recognises Brexit is a terrible misjudgement and begins to smell the coffee about Scotland’s Constitutional strengths and begins to contemplate life beyond the Union, rather than a vindictive devious bastard string puller, disputing Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty, denying the legitimacy of any referendum, and lobbying the USA and Commonwealth Nations NOT to recognise Scotland’s Independence, while seizing an iron grip of Scotland’s assets from cash revenue to oil, and instigating sectarian flashpoints designed to polarise the issue of Scottish Independence to the point of violent disturbance.

      If it’s pish to look for a path out of Brexit and towards Scottish Independence that embraces common interest and mutual benefit, then it’s pish that I prefer over a no holds barred conflagration stoked by a desperate English Fascism fighting for its life to avoid its own ruin and abject humiliation.

      But hey, that’s just me. Maybe you’d prefer to see the Ulsterisation of Glasgow and folks getting stabbed outside Scottish flats threatened with a four storey palette bonfire in the car park.

    350. DerekM says:

      Ottomanboi

      Fuck off 77th brigade troll read the membership and weep you piece of shit.

      You just got caught did they not warn you about me lmao

    351. Robert Peffers says:

      @Cubby says:9 August, 2019 at 5:53 pm:

      ” … Spotted a big oil tanker in the background. I wonder if the Britnats watching the coverage, who still believe there is no oil left, think it is a cruise ship. Or do they just not think at all.”

      Och! Cubby, you just haven’t got how their brains work yet. The probably believe it is a tanker but that it is carrying oil for Scotland paid for by English tax payers and are convinced that Westminster is sending it to us – after all everyone knows we are all subsidy junkies up here. because they love us so much

    352. Dr Jim says:

      @Liz g 9:19pm

      Remember in 2014 when Yoonworld was squealing about banks leaving Scotland well that was what I was thinking about then

      No other small Independent country the size of Scotland, of which there are many, could afford or would afford to just hand over their Nation’s money to a bunch of charlatons like these people and that’s why these banks anchor themselves to big economies who rely on financial services for their incomes just exactly so they CAN behave badly

      They’re just a bunch of Las Vegas big time gamblers but with other peoples money……ours!

      RBS I never gave it a thought as to their name or who it might belong to but I had a dog named Lobo and he wasn’t a wolf so I guess a name is just a name because it started out as Scottish

      One of my favourite names that mean nothing is *American cheese* because it actually contains no cheese whatsoever, none, it is devoid of cheese

      Soon to be on our shelves though, don’t eat it for God sake

    353. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dan says:9 August, 2019 at 6:11 pm:

      ” … Better hope Europe disnae flick the switches off either or England will be selling raw jam. ?”

      Oh! Dinna be silly, Dan, Scotland has all the soft fruit. Don’t you know that England gets all its soft fruit from Scotland? Then they processes it into jam and exports it to the World. However, as it leaves the UK via English ports and airports Westminster’s accounts class it as English exports? Just like they do with Gin and Scotch Whisky.

    354. CameronB Brodie says:

      The conditions that brought about the 2008 financial crises, was largely due to bent academics selling fantasy economic hocus pocus, that was codified into US banking law. The rest is history we are living today. You get cheep crooks on the make in any line of work, academics simply hurt more than most through a lack of ethics.

    355. ahundredthidiot says:

      Breeks, your post at 7:44 is written by someone on their knees, hoping their master won’t scold them.

      Your second post at 9:42 is a rambling attempt at a U turn – and a bad one at that.

      You’re now getting first, second and third place with the pishtalker of the week award.

    356. DerekM says:

      @ Dan

      Yea mate we have done all kinds of work on The Carron it was a mess after years of industrial pollution,we have a stocking program with brown trout but we seem to keep hitting the brick wall when it comes to funding.
      Most of the work was done voluntary by the anglers but we really need what we had on The Teith a fish farm,bloody tories sold it off to commercial business and now they raise rainbow trout in it for supermarkets.

      What a waste but we anglers are still checking to make sure the fish are not diseased through the Forth fishery protection agency though even they are struggling to maintain it,i just hope all the information we have gathered over the last 20 years does not go to waste.

      The bureaucracy is a total pain sometimes i wish i could fling them in the Forth.

    357. Liz g says:

      Dr Jim @ 9.45
      Aye Dr Jim it doesn’t surprise me that they’ll go and good riddance
      But we must be loud about why they’re doing it.
      And kick up a stink about them trading on our good name when they are an English registers firm!
      Also printing our bank notes….I don’t think so…
      And don’t worry about the cheese… I wouldn’t touch it now yuk 🙂

    358. Robert Peffers says:

      @@manandboy says: 9 August, 2019 at 8:05 pm:

      ” … Scotland has been deprived of its Independence since 1707, by England.”

      The unfortunate real truth, manandboy, is that it hasn’t been Englanders that have prevented Scottish independence it has been Scottish unionists. Just like it wasn’t Englanders who suppressed Scottish history being taught in Scottish schools. It was Oxbridge educated Scots. When I began school, in wartime, there were very few Scottish educated teachers in Scottish Schools and the few who were should really have been retired. Those who were not over retirement age were disabled and unfit for the armed forces. The whole education system was Oxbridge educated until after the war and the demobbed Scots began to appear in the classrooms.

    359. Cubby says:

      Robert Peffers@9.45pm

      Many thanks for that insight into how the Britnat brain works. Always learning on Wings.

      I guess that is what is causing Scotlands deficit English taxpayers sending oil to Scotland. Who would have thought it. The generosity of Westminster is hard to believe.

    360. Liz g says:

      Golfnut @ 9.42
      I hope that’s true.
      They centigrade on our name and he an English or anywhere else company.
      But more than that when they need their bail out we don’t need the world thinking it was us they were bailing out!
      This is a matter of Scotland’s reputation..
      They leave they leave the name…

    361. Liz g says:

      Sorry Golfnut..
      It should say
      They can’t trade in England or anywhere else and use our good name while not being a Scottish Company…

    362. call me dave says:

      Jings! Chaos darn Sarf! Radio 5 running a special.

      Two power stations go of grid +? wind turbine plant. Cascading to off basically at the same time.

      A once in a generation event… really 🙂

      NHS generator (s) not coming on and trains still stranded etc etc.

      Keep calm and carry on.

    363. DerekM says:

      ahundredthidiot

      LOL

      Sorry Breeks but hey dont worry i at least know you are one of the good guys,though you want to lighten up with the cringe mate,they have been fucking us over for 300 years plus,they are not going to change just because we are nice to them.

      Hell we save their asses and we are right back to square one,the only reason they are even talking about it is they are scared we leave them to rot in the cesspit of their own making.

      Oh and that is nothing against the people of England they are sadly irrelevant in all this and until they figure out they get fucked over by the British aristocracy just as much as we do they will remain irrelevant.

      I seen a mem the other day that hit the nail on the head it was a teacher asking some kids where the capital of England was the reply by the kid was in an offshore bank owned by the 1%,same is true for the rest of the UK nations.

    364. Golfnut says:

      @ Liz g.

      ‘ centigrade ‘ don’t you just love predictive text, lol.
      Yep, they don’t get a free pass with the name. They go, they stay gone.

    365. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Does anyone know what the difference is between ‘no-one likes a smart Aleck’ and ‘no-one likes a smart-arse’?

      🙂

    366. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Wonder if this “major power outage” across England is actually an unannounced major incident management drill

      Like the dam earlier this week it might just be due to infrastructure failure due to lack of investment/maintenance.

    367. Liz g says:

      Golfnut @ 10.37
      Predictive text is the bane of my life … LoL
      I just hope it doesn’t prove in time to say something about ones actual mind 🙂
      Help!!!!

    368. Heart of Galloway says:

      Breeks@9.42

      And there we go. The SNP has squandered…ad nauseum.

      Your posts have a philosophical bent Breeks so here’s a thought from Sun Tzu: “If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”

      I am no standard bearer for the SNP, but I reckon that’s encapsulates Nicola Sturgeon’s strategy on IndyRef2.

      “…Getting absolutely nothing to show for it..” you say.

      At Westminster, no. But that’s not where the battle front is. It’s here, in Scotland, and it’s for the hearts and minds of all the people who live here.

      And that battle, in thousands upon thousands of conversations at home, at the supermarket check out, in the pub and up mountains, is yard by hard yard, despite all the sordid attempts of our own media to stem the tide, is being won.

      Why? Because the Scottish Government has stayed its hand until the time was right. Make no mistake, the referendum legislation will be put in the fast lane at Holyrood after the summer recess for one good reason – the referendum campaign has already started.

      Scottish independence is now the currency of conversation from Wick to Wigtown, in London in Dublin, in blogs and newspapers across Europe.

      Qu’est-ce que se passe en Ecosse? Well, majority support for independence that’s what. And the ground is still shifting – towards us – because independence is a cause whose time has come.

      Because we have been patient and determined and never stopped believing. For you see Breeks, the point of no return has already been passed.

      We will have our referendum next year. And we will win. That’s why the BBC and, most lately the fragrant Paul Sweeney have been desperately trying to gain traction for their “win in 2021 and we might consider a referendum at a time and wording of our choosing”.

      They are fooling nobody, themselves, perhaps, excepted.

      We have our mandate. Our Scottish Parliament voted 69-59 for it. And when the Brexit shit hits the fan, it will be triggered.

      So rather that tilting at windmills Breeks, get oot there and convince those who are open to being persuaded.

    369. Dan says:

      @CameronB Brodie at 8:50 pm

      Cheers for response Cameron. As expected it would appear to be a complex matter, and with aspects of it under the control of the now infamous UK Fudged and Fubared Accounting Services it will be all but impossible to know the real picture.

      @Robert Peffers at 9:55 pm

      I was passing through the soft fruit metropolis of Blairgowrie the other month. Popped into the COOP… Raspberries in 2 stage plastic packaging from fookin Morocco on the shelf, in the height of the Scottish raspberry season! WTF, is it any wonder the world is on fire.

      @DerekM at 10:13 pm
      Hmm, commercial fish farming. Don’t mention the 30k rainbow trout in Loch Etive.

    370. call me dave says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Hmm! A historical pimp / thief.

      https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-term-smart-alec

      Too many arses…

    371. Robert Peffers says:

      @ahundredthidiot says: 9 August, 2019 at 9:57 pm:

      Breeks, your post at 7:44 is written by someone on their knees, hoping their master won’t scold them”

      What Breeks is doing is proposing things he imagines were possible for the SNP to do. Thing is they were not possible and you do not need to look far to realise why.

      Not only that but until Scotland is actually independent then Scotland is legally a equally sovereign partner along with the kingdom of England and as such when the end of the union actually happens then will come the divorce settlement and what Breeks is suggesting will not happen for before the United Kingdom’s divorce settlement there will be the EU/UK divorce settlement.

      This is probably, I’m guessing here, why the SNP are doing their best, not as Breeks imagines, to safeguard as much as possible Scotland’s part in the EU/UK divorce settlement.

      Breeks, like so many others, just cannot get his head round the fact that Westminster is not legally the parliament of England but is legally the United Kingdom parliament so when it comes to settlements the SNP are attempting to safeguard what they can that legally also belongs to Scotland.

    372. Capella says:

      @ Dan – AFAIK projects classified as “National” do not incur Barnett consequentials. It’s a way of spending tax payers money (including ours) on English infrastructure without Scotland getting any benefit. The London Olympics were a “National” project with massive infrastructure needed whereas the Glasgow Commonwealth Games were a Glasgow/Scotland funded event which we paid for ourselves.

    373. Capella says:

      Dan again – the Coop is a Manchester based company and all decisions re sourcing and branding are made in Manchester.

    374. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @callmedave (10.53) –

      Aha!

      Cheers for that.

      Your closing clause is tempting…

      ‘Too many arses spoil the broth’?

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    375. Clootie says:

      England has a spinning reserve of less than 2 percent. They need the Scottish generation capacity to stop a frequency collapse. However we should remember that those who generate in Scotland are charged much more to access the grid than those in the South.

      Without the rapid response of the Scottish Hydroelectric system the lights would go out more often in England yet they still get charged more to access the grid.

      Sound fair!

    376. DerekM says:

      Robert Peffers

      Aye true Robert though you forgot to mention they then pocket the cash for themselves instead of investing it back into the economy.

    377. CameronB Brodie says:

      You might have noticed me mentioning the biopsychosocial model of health and making efforts to stress its significance. Well as health and social well-being are my primary concerns, here’s a wee insight into the sociology of healthcare. Are Scots really going to let the Tories damage Scotland’s public health? Just because Euroscepticism and cultural chauvinism are now central components of English nationalism?

      The Conservative party simply failed the keep the New Right on a tight enough leash, and British democracy now stands on the edge of an alarming precipice. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t see this coming, when I was at uni., almost thirty years ago.

      MODELS OF HEALTH
      Community Development and Health Network FACTSHEET 01

      “Health is a state of complete physical, social and mental well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity. The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental right of every human being, without distinction of race, religion, political beliefs or economic and social conditions.” (Source: World Health Organisation 1948)

      SOCIAL MODEL OF HEALTH:
      This model emerged from the social model of disability, which has been strongly advocated by the disability rights movement. It was developed as a reaction to the traditional medical model. The social model of health examines all the factors which contribute to health such as social, cultural, political and the environment. An example is poor housing: see diagram

      It is well documented that both stress and low self esteem can have a negative impact on health. “Low levels of autonomy and low self esteem are likely to relate to worse health.” (Marmot, 2003) CDHN believes that communities know that their health is being affected by a variety of issues. We also believe that communities can and should be actively involved in identifying, planning, designing and implementing solutions to health issues and unjust health inequalities.

      BIOPSYCHOSOCIAL MODEL:
      Developed by psychiatrist George Engel in 1977, and recognises that many factors affect health. It pays “explicit attention to humanness” (Engel, 1997). It views health as a scientific construct and a social phenomena. The model looks at the biological factors which affect health, such as age, illness, gender etc. The psychological factors: individual beliefs & perceptions. The social: the community, the presence or absence of relationships.

      “We suffer when our interpersonal bonds are sundered and we feel solace when they are reestablished” (Engel, 1997)

      https://www.cdhn.org/sites/default/files/downloads/FACTSHEETS%201_Screen%20View%281%29.pdf

      https://www.cdhn.org/factsheets

    378. DerekM says:

      From the mouth of babes 😉

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBgpe6jXUAAwoCv.jpg:large

      https://twitter.com/No1CraigyBaby

      Thanks CraigyBaby keep up the good work 😉

    379. Legerwood says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10.15 PM

      Research carried out into the Scottish School system during World War II does not support your assertion that there were few Scottish educated teachers in Scottish schools during that period.

      Apart from a very short period teacher training colleges in Scotland remained open and continued to train teachers particularly women. Degree courses at Scottish Universities were also shortened to increase the throughput of graduates into the teacher training Colleges.

      In March 1942, for example, 2,514 Male teachers (28.6%) were serving in the armed forces or other war related duties but the overall decrease in the teaching workforce was 5.4% from 28,963 to 27,402 largely through the employment of women teachers -newly trained or married women teachers drafted back into teaching.

      There were also retired teachers back in the classroom but women were the mainstay. Around 21,000 women made up the core of the profession.

      Class sizes were also increased as a temporary measure to deal with staff shortages. Some subject areas were affected more than others – PE, maths and science but apparently not history.

      I would recommend reading: John Michael lloyd (1979) “The Scottish school system and the second world war: a study in central policy and administration.” University of Stirling.

      Chapter 5 of this PhD thesis is of particular relevance and some of the stats quoted above come from that section of the thesis.

      While the number of Male teachers declined by 2514 (28.6%) by March 1942 because they were serving in the armed forces or other forms of war service the overall decline in teacher numbers was 5.4% from 28,983 to 27,402. This was achieved by the employment of women replacements, in some cases married women drafted back into teaching, also retired teachers returning to work and sometimes by employing people who were not fully qualified. Increasing the size of classes was also one of the ways of tackling the shortage of male teachers although it was not just Male teachers who went off to join the war effort. Women went too eg to serve as nurses.

    380. call me dave says:

      Big Auntie darn Sarf suggesting that the UK have not enough ships for patrolling the ‘UK’ fishing grounds after Brexit.

      Well nothing that we didn’t suspect. 🙁

    381. Thepnr says:

      @Heart of Galloway

      That all sounds just about right to me. Good post.

    382. Confused says:

      I remember a young John Lydon, the famous butter salesman, on telly saying “never trust a hippy” – and an image comes to mind of a young Branson with long hair on the Sex Pistols “thames excursion” … there’s no hippies left to hate (“saw a deadhead sticker on a cadillac” and Burning Man is a corporate shithole), so –

      Updated : Never trust a “liberal”.

      Simon Jenkins – yeah yeah – but really, fuck him and who cares? Things are going nice for us, we don’t need him, or his self serving ideas and helpful suggestions.

      I think I hate the Guardian more than any other newspaper – its just the Daily Mail in stealth mode with a “be nice to gays” sticker.

      At least with the DM it is fairly straightforward, out in the open, bufton-tufton, colonel blimp, “never should have let kenya go” – types. Their madness is straightforward and it is simply that “Britain” i.e. England, and only certain parts of England, mainly London, and only certain parts of London – is the greatest thing ever and responsible for all that is good in the world. The guardianista is more tricksy and perverse, playing games with the self-loathing (apparently) on the way.

      The chinese have a contemptuous term for the western woke-bro identity politics idiot – its just

      WHITE LEFT

      simple – and yet, it seems, so damning.

      I have something similar – ENGLISH LEFT

      – the kind of people who infest the “liberal” side of the media, parrott all the nonsense about freedom and oppression – you name the bandwagon and they will be on it, grabbing the reins off you – but then when you mention the possibility of an

      independent scotland
      a progressive modern democracy
      with a market economy and welfare state
      with strong legal traditions
      working class consciousness, trade unionism, socialism …

      – they look at you, horrified

      WHAT – BREAK UP THE UNION!!!!

      – and the creature in front of you transforms itself into a kind of RUDYARD KIPLING ON CRYSTAL METH – monster

      Unfortunately, there is a section of the nationalist movement which seems committed to creating a form of nationalism which is “acceptable to the guardian” – and they are influential. e.g. whining donkeys like Mike Small and twerps like Vonny (?) LeClerc (- wtf, I keep thinking of pepe le peu attempting to make “sweet lurrve” to an unwilling cat; maybe theres a link there – poor pepe thinks he’s sexy, but really, he stinks)

    383. CmonIndy says:

      I follow the £ rate. Now at its lowest for at least 10 years against both € and $.
      Dontcha love Britain and them broad shoulders?

    384. Petra says:

      @ Legerwood says at 12:21 am …Scottish school teachers.”

      I’m not adding anything to your excellent post at all Legerwood, but would just like to say that I had a most amazing teacher in Primary school (for three consecutive years). She came from Czechoslovakia and I loved her to bits. Loved her so much that I learned to spell Czechoslovakia (to please her) as a six year old. She in fact along with a wonderful uncle saved me from committing suicide as a very young child. She’s gone now but her input / impact on my life will never be forgotten.

    385. Hamish100 says:

      Rule Not Britannia
      Britannia disnae rule the waves

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778

    386. Breeks says:

      The UK is facing economic disaster and international humiliation.

      You’d put the boot in for absolutely no advantage to Scotland. Oh my, how very libertarian of you.

      I’d look to offer England an opportunity to save face, but the price would be their resigned support (reluctant or otherwise) for Scottish Independence. Scotland would become richer as a middleman for English/EU trade, suffer no less pig headed obstructiveness dividing UK assets by mutual consent rather than constitutional divorce court, and the EU would have a degree of protection and control over the English economy and some degree of control against England’s deregulation – which is also massively important for Scotland too.

      Never underestimate the value of allowing those who are beaten and wrong to save face. Sometimes saving face is the only thing they have left.

      If you think that constitutes Scotland begging on your knees, then you really are a lightweight idiot.

    387. Breeks says:


      Heart of Galloway says:
      9 August, 2019 at 10:52 pm

      We will have our referendum next year. And we will win. That’s why the BBC and, most lately the fragrant Paul Sweeney have been desperately trying to gain traction for their “win in 2021 and we might consider a referendum at a time and wording of our choosing”….

      And he bold and brave will revel in public accolade, having done absolutely nothing to defend Scotland’s European Citizenship or the integrity of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

      Independence danced to the tune of England’s incompetence and Scottish passivity until the things worth fighting for a lost. What heroes and defenders of the realm we have leading us.

    388. Famous15 says:

      “Will he be swaggering into Holyrood at the head of a new force” etc.

      A not so subtle invention of actions he has not included in the interview.

      I would fact check with Stu what are his ambitions and do they include such swaggering but of course I know that this is a crooked journalistic device to tar someone with ambitions and beliefs they do not have.

    389. Legerwood says:

      Petra @ 3.39am

      I too had some amazing teachers. Sometimes it was not what they actually taught you but the things they mentioned or introduced you to that were often peripheral to the subject being taught but which made a lasting impression and took you in directions you might not have considered.

    390. manandboy says:

      At what point, I ask, does England’s historic, defining, and ongoing, treachery end?
      We needn’t discuss their other problematic characteristics, many of which are associated with the ‘accumulation’ of free and independent countries through invasion, military force, suppression and exploitation, to be then re-branded ‘colonies’.
      Nor do we need to consider the often cruel and brutal control of Scotland since 1707, including forced deportation, systematic killing, as well as wholesale indoctrination and brainwashing. And more, so much more.
      England has a long and shocking criminal past, and an enduring crime-ridden present. In all its dealings with England in the future, as a restored Independent Scotland, we are bound by present day prudence, as well as by the memory of generations past who suffered at English hands, to exercise the greatest possible caution, without exception.

      Failure to do so would be inexcusable.

    391. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic. FISHING POST JOHNSON/DAVIDSON/ROSS THOMSON NO-DEAL BREXIT.
      The Independent:

      ” Fears are growing that a no-deal Brexit could lead to serious disorder at sea and possible loss of life – which could then trigger a wider escalation of tensions.

      Britain’s leading expert on international fisheries law believes that, following a no-deal Brexit, there would be “a real risk” of serious violence breaking out between British and EU fishermen, many of whom depend on access to UK fishing grounds for their economic survival.

      “A toxic mix of historical grievances, real and perceived unfair treatment, and, in some cases, a lack of clarity about legal rights is bound to result in fishing disputes,” Professor Richard Barnes of the University of Hull told The Independent…….”

    392. Liz g says:

      Petra & Ledgerwood
      I too had an inspirational teacher.
      It’s amazing the lasting effect it has on you ( I was only about 10)
      As you said … It wasn’t the curriculum stuff it was the peripheral stuff.
      He taught me to think!

      I’ve even gone as far as to look him up ( he has an unusual name) on the net ( with no luck ) to tell him so.
      Some people are just born educators and I feel so lucky to have been in his class!

    393. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Late to the teacher party…

      When I was in 4th and 5th year, I had a great English teacher called Mr Kippen.

      He did not believe that the belt was a solution for misbehaviour in class. He preferred demanding 3 page essays. Two of them I remember were “My life as a grain of sand” and “How to boil an egg”.

      One of his pet peeves was the use of get, got, etc, as in (Alexander Armstrong is so guilty of this on Pointless), “So what have we got?”, rather than the more elegant, “Well, what do we have?” Watch for it on Pointless – he says it all the time. “What have we got?” can be easily contracted, with no loss of meaning, to “What have we?”.

      End of mini-rant.

    394. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      BTW: English was the only Higher I achieved; my History and Geography were ‘compensatory O’. Meaningless, as I already had the O’s.

    395. Sinky says:

      Very poor coverage of SNP programme for government. When its the UK Queens Speech we get rolling credits of most of the promises

    396. Sinky says:

      Bbc still contriving to ignore the third largest grouping at Westminster while promoting the Lib Dems.

      Also Question Time tonight has right wing Isobel Oakeshott on again but no SNP rep at a time an election is on.



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